< 1270080008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're doomed. DOOMED! < 1270080028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::---------------------------------------------------------------------------------O < 1270080051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as would anyone with that kind of nose, mind you < 1270080799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270080914 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ok heres the challenge < 1270080970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will design a trivial little universe, with very simple physics, and a small finite number of universe configurations < 1270081149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill provide you with causal graphs of these configurations and its your job to come up with a description of the physics governing this little universe < 1270081158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows that sound? < 1270081291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun. < 1270081518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270081855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't see why he shouldn't switch to Haskell for all his needs < 1270081904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you should. < 1270081924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because python is better < 1270081938 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forM_ somelist $ \item -> do < 1270081941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has its own charm < 1270081966 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by charm you mean it looks ugly! < 1270081990 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1270081997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not some magic syntax thing < 1270082021 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike for/foreach in just about every other language < 1270082022 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, if/then/else *is* magic syntax, but it shouldn't be < 1270082029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: forM_ is quite a bit more general, also. < 1270082208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what I don't like? The emphasis that seems to need to be placed on efficiency < 1270082237 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trivial quicksort that everyone talks about is apparently the wrong way to do it do to efficiency concerns, or something < 1270082249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- quicksort sucks < 1270082264 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs to sort lists ? < 1270082271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously it's just a waste fo time < 1270082276 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270082296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who even needs lists < 1270082313 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you say that about every algorithm where the trivial implementation is inefficient? < 1270082323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet i could live for a year without a list of any kind < 1270082346 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270082400 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo most everything in haskell is inefficent < 1270082426 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell sucks < 1270082438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate haskell < 1270082443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270082447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOP is the way < 1270082495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1270082503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::[ < 1270082538 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how you'd write a NetHack-like game in Haskell < 1270082540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faxes are outdated. < 1270082544 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is for dorks who think they're nerds < 1270082544 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270082555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo easy way to find out is to do it! < 1270082712 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no nice way to use two different types of STRefs in a single ST monad ins.. whatever it's called, is there? < 1270082727 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270082761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what do you mean by two different types of STRefs? < 1270082787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An STRef that holds an Int and an STRef that holds a String, for instance < 1270082810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can. excuse me while i look it up... < 1270083006 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-102-143.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270083110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STref; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (s ++ show n) < 1270083141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STRef; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (s ++ show n) < 1270083187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STRef; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (putStrLn $ s ++ show n) < 1270083190 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is 3 < 1270083208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay just three attempts needed < 1270083280 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell "n is 3" < 1270083281 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"n is 3" < 1270083308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly recalls that it was not necessarily safe to use $ with runST < 1270083314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runST? < 1270083337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is inefficient in languages other than bits. < 1270083343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function to run a command in the ST monad < 1270083347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: runST :: St a -> a < 1270083353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no! < 1270083355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. ST a -> a. < 1270083365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1270083367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ST. < 1270083368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses type magic < 1270083393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that type magic means it has varied whether you could use it with $ < 1270083393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270083405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runST :: (forall s. ST s a) -> a < 1270083417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. Right. < 1270083422 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270083426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST s a < 1270083429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unusual. < 1270083442 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still confused about the forall. I know why it's there, but not what it oes < 1270083443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1270083531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it ensures that two different invocations of runST can never know that they have the same s, and so are type incompatible and not confused < 1270083557 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't teach me what forall. is supposed to mean < 1270083573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, forall is not uniqueness typing. < 1270083585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i didn't say that < 1270083594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s is a type, not a value < 1270083597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is Lady Gaga behind this window < 1270083632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the thing passed to runST must be a value that is polymorphic for _all_ possible s < 1270083655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1270083766 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-2-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270083783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I get it. < 1270083796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1270083834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "s" must inherently come from runST, and cannot come from anywhere else, because of that forall. So, runST is pure. < 1270083847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of being unsafePerformIO. < 1270083959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: afaict the ability to use different types for your STRef's in an ST invocation is precisely how ST _differs_ from State. if you had only one type you would be able to use State with a map or something instead to simulate your refs. but ST with several types cannot be implemented in pure haskell. < 1270084002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't grok how State is implemented in pure Haskell < 1270084021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least you can read the definition < 1270084040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The State monad simply keeps track of a single value called a "state" and threads that around. < 1270084063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype State s a = State { runState :: s -> (a, s) } < 1270084064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does get get a hold of that thread, if it's type is State a? < 1270084090 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State s a. < 1270084102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You pass runState the initial state. < 1270084128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "modification" of the state is actually replacing the state with an entirely different one. < 1270084143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: compiler may freely replace it with actual modification at will) < 1270084159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how is get defined, exactly? < 1270084179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance MonadState s (State s) where get = State $ \s -> (s, s) put s = State $ \_ -> ((), s) < 1270084193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line breaks got elided) < 1270084209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance MonadState s (State s) where get = State $ \s -> (s, s); put s = State $ \_ -> ((), s) < 1270084262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs a tutorial < 1270084288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so get is a State s s value that takes the threaded state and uses it _both_ for the returned value and the next threaded state < 1270084293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are those supposed to be uncurried? < 1270084310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get takes no arguments < 1270084336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you unwrap the type first) < 1270084342 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the State function do? < 1270084350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a constructor < 1270084356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that mich < 1270084357 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*much < 1270084363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's what it does. < 1270084369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It constructs a new value. < 1270084406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it builds an action in the State monad from a function describing how the threads the state and produces a result < 1270084422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So get is something that would have >>= before it? < 1270084429 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the more usual >>? < 1270084442 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no < 1270084444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from type, an action in the State monad _is_ just such a function < 1270084461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, get has no function arguments as an action < 1270084470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put, on the other hand, does < 1270084504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So get just gives the monad a function to execute? < 1270084507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put s is an action that ignores the old state and uses s as the new one < 1270084533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: _every_ State monad action is just a function wrapped in a State constructor < 1270084578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get, put s, etc. < 1270084650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and runState does nothing other than unwrap that constructor again. it's there for type purposes only. < 1270084763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270085671 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270086445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep seeing OCaml being suggested as a stepping stone to Haskell. < 1270086454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that mean for me, OCaml would be a step backwardsa? < 1270086457 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*backwards? < 1270086543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ocaml does have some interesting features not in haskell < 1270086598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an object system but still with type inference, and an ML-like module system with functors. and better records (haskell's are generally admitted to be awful) < 1270086701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might be good to take a look at it still < 1270086741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shouldn't be looking at anything but C# right now < 1270086747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course for me ocaml _was_ a stepping stone to haskell, so i haven't used it for years < 1270086767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might look at F# which i hear is descended from ocaml < 1270086796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i also think it lacks some of those interesting features < 1270086810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while being .NET compatible < 1270086901 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo ugh no way < 1270086922 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, project, with a deadline tomorrow < 1270086930 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't done a single line of code for it today < 1270086933 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@00:47 < Sgeo> Does that mean for me, OCaml would be a step backwardsa? < 1270087082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I tell my dad that there are people online much smarter than me, and he doesn't believe me < 1270087753 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-imrziudtvfxjavvy JOIN :#esoteric < 1270088341 0 :Halph!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270088391 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1270088397 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1270088469 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270088501 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-31-71.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270089603 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270090046 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270090900 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, there always seems to be the Haskell way, and the fast way < 1270090916 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270090935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear there also an intersection, known as fusion :) < 1270090939 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really starting to get on my nerves, tbh < 1270090942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+is < 1270090960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be thinking in C# right now < 1270091458 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270091458 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1270091904 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270091925 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heydo. < 1270091966 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wayat? Wayat? Wayat? Wayat? < 1270091974 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daygo! Daygo! Daygo! Daygo! < 1270093394 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270094294 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270094357 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-75-239.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270094377 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270094396 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has had an incredibly unproductive day today < 1270095228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270095278 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION too < 1270095747 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl = uorygl? < 1270095958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jes. < 1270095974 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know how to say yes in Lojban, so I said it in Esperanto) < 1270096349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suggests you learn Japanese < 1270096459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My computer professor seems to think I know a lot of programming languages < 1270096468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really only knows most on a superficial level < 1270096819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo every time I have to hand in computer work I get strange compliments about how advanced it is .. even when I try not to bed < 1270096822 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be* < 1270096842 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you bother trying not to be advanced? < 1270096934 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don\t like it when they tell me that :< < 1270097065 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves being way ahead of everyone else < 1270097090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't love the fact that there's a deadline TOMORROW, it's almost midnight, and I haven't done a single worthwhile thing today.l < 1270097110 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the assignment? < 1270097125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, project that I've been talking about for the past few months < 1270097131 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270097140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume I'm stupid < 1270097143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and haven't paid attention < 1270097164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, game that I'm making with a few other people [only one other programmer] < 1270097176 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's on the AW platform, so it's not as much work as it sounds, but still < 1270097202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The um.. financer, I guess, is giving us some stuff, but wants to see results < 1270097204 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the deadline the due date, or a partway-through thing < 1270097214 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partway-through < 1270097218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270097223 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I presume you aren't there yet? < 1270097249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fairly close, but if the person's expecting 100%, it's not happening < 1270097288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, I'm going to restart the computer, and hopefully that will leave a clean slate to let me focus < 1270097389 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me give you a piece of advice < 1270097395 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270097405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not turn on IRC when you reboot, unless its necessary for your work < 1270097410 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is, join only the necessary channesl < 1270097412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*channels < 1270097455 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270097567 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270097909 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270097944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1270098193 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270099285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, who wants to play with universes? :) < 1270099358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I tend to seek 12 different tutorials for things < 1270099401 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I've noticed something: I can accept learning a language because I have to. Such languages [C#, LSL] are treated as tools < 1270099434 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other languages [Python, Ruby, Haskell, Scheme], it feels like they're all competing for my affection. It's as though I'll only allow myself to truly love one language. < 1270099968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This topic was correct once | Last topic change: 0 Anno Domini | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270100258 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Haskell can't do state, then surely it isn't Turing Complete? < 1270100301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo, it can simulate state! < 1270100309 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the lambda calculus can! < 1270100323 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does Calculus have to do with anything? < 1270100340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It can do more than simulate state. < 1270100353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is entirely imperative. It is also entirely pure. < 1270100354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ctcp pikhq time < 1270100355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1270100366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: uh, please tell me that you haven't been hanging out in here for months while never once hearing of lambda calculus < 1270100370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Haskell can't do imperative < 1270100370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No joke. < 1270100378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus < 1270100380 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah*. Right. < 1270100384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION skips forward < 1270100393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not calculus as in newton/leibniz < 1270100395 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "calculus" is a means of calculating something. < 1270100400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, you see, it only pretends to. With this "monad" bullshit. < 1270100409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Named after Monad Leibniz. < 1270100440 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270100484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this Monad fellow.. he invented math and computers? < 1270100488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used as follows: let Monad M = new template> M(this); M.bind.return.imperative( // What follows is C++ code. < 1270100509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax was chosen, of course, to be compatible with C++'s most brilliant design principles. < 1270100527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is SGEO being full of shit? XD < 1270100532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also. What follows after "//" is not a comment. < 1270100540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: The day is most certainly not 4-01. < 1270100551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And such a day has in no way any significance. < 1270100581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see yes < 1270100583 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well! one never knows < 1270100598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know Sgeo much < 1270100613 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also dont participate in april fools, so it never crosses my mind < 1270100654 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In all seriousness, there should be an esolang based on pikhq's "code" < 1270100671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[In all full seriousness, I always say that there should be an esolang] < 1270100677 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried five fucking different floppy drives < 1270100681 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not a single one worked < 1270100702 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION misread that as "fucking five". For some reason, AFD is making my mind act drunk < 1270100702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The SCP foundation has had a breech. It would seem that today is a good day to die. < 1270101352 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, coppro, I've been here for years < 1270101365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the latest, since late 2007, when I got started on PSOX < 1270101699 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270101823 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270102249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd.com < 1270102254 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not working for me in Chrome, but still < 1270102266 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270102406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270102579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't work in Firefox. < 1270102605 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for me < 1270102617 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270103226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is doing April Fool's stuff instead of trying to get this stuff done :( < 1270103281 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: /quit, close your browser, reopen your browser, open exactly those pages which are required for your work < 1270103292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not going to /quit < 1270103311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need people to talk to < 1270103342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then /part out of every channel except the ones related to your work < 1270103349 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do not need people to converse with casually < 1270103351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to work < 1270103470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1270103505 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I talk to you while I work? < 1270103527 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had a semi-revelation: I don't need to actually have the bot do anything for this part < 1270103531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pure in-AW code < 1270103543 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for persisting it, but that could be a separate part of the bot < 1270104196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels like he's cutting corners by doing this < 1270104217 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I did kind of take pikhq's statement as permission to talk casually in here < 1270104345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shruggeth < 1270104835 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all I know, I have nothing to do, and the guy will be satisfied as-is < 1270104846 0 :metaphlex!~user@m295e36d0.tmodns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270105430 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270105444 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should at least add the mechanism for the bot to "click" items < 1270105510 0 :metaphlex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270105564 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270105646 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270106103 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that he'll just write a report on the state of the bot, then go to sleep < 1270107561 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270108164 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270108203 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270108799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270108800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270109370 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270109917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah! This small drop of code worked perfectly the first time! < 1270110376 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if that sale was real or if I'm going to get an April Fools' package < 1270110827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes a "State of the Bot Address" < 1270110856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes that this is enough to convince the person funding this that enough was done so far < 1270110945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube wins the day < 1270110947 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WccS6q8Mo-U&feature=channel&textp=fool < 1270111032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip=1 no longer works? < 1270111034 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270111065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip=1? < 1270111089 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, what was the thing to flip it? < 1270111096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last year or something < 1270111165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google.com < 1270111236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're reviving Virgle < 1270111329 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the are? < 1270111330 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it < 1270111356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And Project Virgle, our co-venture with Richard Branson and Virgin to launch the first permanent human colony on Mars, will henceforth be known as Project Vireka." < 1270111392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/different-kind-of-company-name.html < 1270111473 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the death of star ratings on YouTube for real or Apr1st? < 1270111521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown < 1270111544 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signs point to permanent < 1270111555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though one can never tell with Google < 1270111592 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google tends to be more "nope, it wasn't April 1st joke after all" < 1270111599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, that's coming from one data point < 1270111654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1270111661 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like the units of measure on the search page < 1270111697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe someone was using that information for something important! And now they just screw it up? < 1270111720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Whatever the outcome, the conclusion was clear: we aren't in Google anymore." < 1270111744 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol; I think I missed that < 1270111934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was in the blog post I just linked < 1270112068 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I know, I read it before, and failed to notice that line < 1270112096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this "wear blue for autism on April 2nd" stuff is backed by racing4autism, which links to Autism Speaks and Generation Rescue < 1270112252 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270114133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1270114136 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270114151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the youtube stuff is awesome < 1270114206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the cosmonauty textp XD < 1270114356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270114454 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ascii youtube video thing has actually been around a while < 1270114460 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was some other site that would do it < 1270114469 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that youtube brought it in < 1270114583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the DIY folks, it's pretty much always been possible to just plug a youtube get_video URL into mplayer, and use either the aalib or libcaca text-based video-out drivers. < 1270114584 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270114754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also for some reason on this work-workstation there's no TEXTp mode visible. Aw. < 1270114786 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270117875 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mynzλ < 1270117879 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1270117882 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzλ < 1270118912 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does libcaca support 256-color mode? :-) < 1270119000 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270119039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I have a feeling it does, but I'm not completely certain. < 1270119090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: The web page just says "2048 available colours (some devices can only handle 16)". (I'm not sure where they have 2k colours... maybe using the "direct" X11 output, I think it had one too.) < 1270119110 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270119128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's ncurses, slang, x11 and gl drivers in it. < 1270119375 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl@libcaca over gl < 1270119481 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All kinds of "insane transports" and "insane platforms" are fun to do as an joke... < 1270119585 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't done any really crazy combos... I think the craziest was SSH inside SSH... < 1270119632 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember running X11 over aalib once, don't recall what the middle layer that made that possible was though. < 1270119649 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270119699 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once got Quake II using aalib by mistake... < 1270119730 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270119822 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tritonio doesn't like that. < 1270119920 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SDL autofallbacks video drivers...) < 1270119923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ascii-Quake never was much fun, but we spent a while playing networked 0verkill -- http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~brain/0verkill/ -- which was pretty fun for a while. < 1270120544 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1270120589 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270123875 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270124399 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270124665 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270124707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit and here i thought the topic would be correct today :( < 1270124739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, this might not be the day to expect such a thing < 1270125626 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1270125726 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270130708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270131993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270132016 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270134234 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270134278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270135736 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270136191 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270136876 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270137211 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-163.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270137323 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270137532 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270138343 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-75-239.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270139185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270139999 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270140357 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270140445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270140908 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132041.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270140921 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270141069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm xkcd did a very nice thing for today < 1270141073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs javascript though < 1270141251 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-215-13.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270141277 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270141295 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-215-13.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270141464 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270141959 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270143853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270144229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah at the units in google's search result < 1270144255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Results 1 - 10 of about 1,810,000,000 for google. (0.14e+43 Planck times) < 1270144682 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270144717 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270144794 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270144816 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not here < 1270144823 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must be a google US exclusive prank < 1270144826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, only on google.com < 1270144828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on google.se < 1270144835 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or .fr < 1270144836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, but I use google.com normally < 1270144842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to switch though < 1270144851 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do too, but it switches automatically to .fr < 1270144852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a link near the bottom of the front page < 1270144857 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people made the "Check for brainwave activity" code as short as 10 bytes in shell scripts, I cannot quite figure it out but I did reduce it to 12 bytes. After 10 days I can figure out what it is < 1270144861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and did you see xkcd < 1270144861 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it when softwares try to second guess me < 1270144864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd's shell < 1270144866 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270144868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice < 1270144869 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also 4chan < 1270144873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guest@xkcd:/$ date < 1270144873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :March 32nd < 1270144873 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POST TO FACEBOOK < 1270144882 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate april fool < 1270144887 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always so stupid < 1270144891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, ? < 1270144894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 4chan < 1270144922 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "post to facebook" option on the post window for april fool < 1270144936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, oh and maps.google.com.au gives directions in AU slang < 1270144937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: < 1270144952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Turn a smidge left when you get to South Western Mwy < 1270144953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ya might have to cough up some cash along here" < 1270144959 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crikey! < 1270144965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, :D < 1270144978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, still waiting for the RFC < 1270145062 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC? < 1270145068 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will there be a fool RFC this year? < 1270145087 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roman Fatholic church? < 1270145088 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will INTERCAL be released this year? < 1270145107 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it already? < 1270145113 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also what is RFC < 1270145136 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC is short for "Request For Comment" < 1270145161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is usually a specification for some internet protocol or something like that. But it can sometimes describe other stuff, too < 1270145252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is usually joke ones on 1 April < 1270145263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, are you serious about never having heard about RFCs? < 1270145277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the IRC RFC, 14xx (forgot the last two digits) < 1270145328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, IP, TCP, HTTP and pretty much every other common non-vendor-specific protocol is specified in one (or more) RFC(s) < 1270145473 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pulled a fax earlier, maybe Slereah's doing the same? < 1270145638 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello everyone, this morning i woke up to find i had turned into seven monkeys < 1270145665 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only three of those monkeys were virgins < 1270145976 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats, you're 4/7 less of a virgin than before < 1270146016 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, this moring I woke up to find out that my bed was on the ceiling < 1270146027 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I had eight eyes, just like my D&D character does < 1270146036 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I realized I was still sleeping < 1270146058 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i can't do the math do you mean i was a virgin before or that i wasn't or what? < 1270146063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Sgeo pulled a fax earlier, maybe Slereah's doing the same? < 1270146066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1270146069 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm seven monkeys you see < 1270146081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how many were using typewriters? < 1270146085 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I convinced at least two people that I was more of an idiot than I am < 1270146090 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's referring to the time fax said she didn't like haskell < 1270146097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, this is of uttermost importance! < 1270146098 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270146104 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the time she said she doesn't know haskell < 1270146126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, wow. That would be like at absolute zero then? < 1270146133 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION growls < 1270146134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, couldn't resist) < 1270146138 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, today is 1st of april, which means we can all lie to each other < 1270146152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, why should I trust that? < 1270146159 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm really monkeys < 1270146165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, also it is March 32 < 1270146168 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but today is really the 1st of april < 1270146168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 1 April < 1270146183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, go to xkcd and type date into the javascript shell on that page < 1270146186 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270146187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, it must be correct < 1270146200 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using xkcd in an argument instantly disqualifies you < 1270146202 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from life < 1270146224 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Match 32? My calendar says it's Arch 42 and a half. < 1270146251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, har. But I quite liked his unix like shell that he remade the front page into today < 1270146266 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has an IRC client < 1270146270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what does? < 1270146275 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unixkcd < 1270146280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh didn't notice < 1270146285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what network does it go to? < 1270146288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foonetic < 1270146298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type irc AnMaster or something < 1270146311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think xkcd should stick with this theme forever. < 1270146313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i rather like it < 1270146315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, `find kitten` is fun < 1270146319 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried the xkcd shell. I typed "pwd" and it responded with "You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." < 1270146350 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo apt-get upgrade < 1270146427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, saw that < 1270146452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tells you everything is fine or something (forgot exact message) < 1270146480 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270146535 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-232-75.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270146553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, not if you're using Firefox < 3, or IE < 1270146604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, look < 1270146721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I'm using firefox 3.6 < 1270146733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, and I doubt my other installed browsers could check it < 1270146750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because they are text only and don't support javascript) < 1270146755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, as for "look" yes I saw that < 1270146772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to solve that once you realised that you were already carrying the lamp < 1270146832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270146930 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270147181 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-203-237.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270147422 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270147669 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270148667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270148771 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270148941 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270149011 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-29-245-7.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270149526 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270149765 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-253510.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270149855 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-227-131.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270150611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I write a Linux distribution I will have to do some things like, "wg" is like "wget -O -", "e" is "echo", "en" is like "echo" but each parameter is output to a separate line, and so on < 1270151038 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should also do it so that if the window manager's key is pushed and released by itself, it will show/hide mouse pointer (moving the mouse also shows the pointer) < 1270151136 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So essentially, you think Linux would be better if it was cryptically difficult to use. < 1270151159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are of great confusion. < 1270151168 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this is how I would make it, anyways. There would be more two letter commands and one letter commands, for one thing. < 1270151172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I note that I only recently started using a window manager that reparents. < 1270151191 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reparent? < 1270151200 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270151206 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably write a new shell, too, with some new features and some removed, and so on < 1270151212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Most window managers reparent windows so they can draw title bars. < 1270151220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And window borders. < 1270151299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratpoison leaves the parent as root, because who needs graphics? < 1270151306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not why you're running X, is it, silly? < 1270151346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270151363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I also have to make it be: All window manager's functions are accessed with the window manager's key and combination with keyboard and/or mouse, except for clicking the title bar and task bar, which can be done without. Which key is the window manager's key could be configured, and can be indicated "wm-" in emacs notation < 1270151380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go ahead < 1270151397 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, wm-t could show/hide taskbar and wm-tab could switch next window, and so on, like that. < 1270151412 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should hide the title-bar for maximized windows, so therefore I will make it to do tha. < 1270151436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That sort of thing is fairly common. I assume you'd go a bit further in that you would make *all* functionality keyboard-accessible, which few WMs use, but... Yeah. < 1270151450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could quite reasonably just do a few minor patches against Fluxbox for that. < 1270151503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, ake *all* functionality keyboard-accessible. Although, a few things would work with the mouse also because some things might work better with it, for example if you want to size/move a window or select window or stuff graphically (there is three mouse buttons, and also modifier keys, so there is many combinations) < 1270151579 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270151579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, fairly reasonable, and it would probably not take much work to add to Fluxbox. < 1270151587 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, ALT+mouse won't drag a window unless ALT is the window manager's key. And even if it is, you have to use the middle mouse button. < 1270151603 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because wm key + left mouse button would be used to resize windows instead. < 1270151651 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270151757 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't need any fancy gradient title-bars and 3-D dialog boxes and stuff like that. We don't need any icons or buttons on the title-bar either, the mouse already has three buttons! < 1270151830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is putting his project away for the rest of today, and all of tomorrow  < 1270151831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270152099 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-216-79.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270152119 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many two-letter and one-letter command names are not used yet in UNIX, and some things I don't agree how they work (such as wget sending output to the file instead of to stdout, all programs should receive their input from stdin and send their output to stdout, and then you can use < > to redirect to files or | to pipes to other programs) < 1270152192 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: rant? :P < 1270152759 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if "pm" is the package manager, you could install an external package with "wg http://example.org/pm/web-browser | pm" or something like that. < 1270152839 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, probably more like: wg http://example.org/pm/web-browser | s pm -I < 1270152916 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-27-21-134.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270153088 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270153205 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When using a package manager, the path to the install files should be send to stdout and the status information to stderr < 1270153231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what would be nice? A soundfont for strings that didn't suck UTTERLY. < 1270153281 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those exist < 1270153285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere over the rainbow < 1270153308 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies. < 1270153311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filthy, disgusting lies. < 1270153329 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q: < 1270153399 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: You've been a wonderful audience < 1270153412 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270153419 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lo. < 1270153427 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, what would be really wonderful is a string quartet that would play what I wanted them to for no money :P < 1270153485 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So hey, I've been discharged from the unit. After Wednesday's meeting they decided they could find no problem and that my admission was an error. < 1270153490 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))))))) < 1270153510 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...APRIL FOOLS HAHAHAHA :| < 1270153513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ehirdiphone. I wish I was certain that that wasn't.. yeah < 1270153583 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270153629 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-29-92-178.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270153656 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if xkcd.com works on the iphone < 1270153663 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too tired to even go on the computer. Tomorrow. < 1270153699 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't check xkcd.com on the iPhone? < 1270153712 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'll have three days of me. < 1270153722 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Do http:// and maybe < 1270153731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com < 1270153741 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate xkcd, though < 1270153766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not talking about the comic < 1270153771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, everything works on the iPhone. Except Flash. < 1270153855 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just on GSM. It does not load. < 1270153871 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fast enough for IRC, though. < 1270153890 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a Reddit admin! < 1270153905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some dubreddit < 1270153911 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subreddit < 1270153917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, globally [mods are what's by subreddit, btw] < 1270153932 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, since when? < 1270153938 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everybody is, since today < 1270153951 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And are they as numerous as WP admins? < 1270154013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why can't I upvote to infinity anymore? < 1270154023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I don't have the admin thing active < 1270154050 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have known: I wondered why I never saw his posts or comments, if he is so prominent. < 1270154059 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloomin' Fools. < 1270154101 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daiyen fooles. < 1270154117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooels* < 1270154128 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YouTube has a new TEXTp mode < 1270154138 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unavailable for me < 1270154156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TEXTp? < 1270154160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/textp-saves-youtube-bandwidth-money.html < 1270154230 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Epigram 2 was released! < 1270154252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epigram programming language? < 1270154479 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The next feature they need to add is the one to automatically print out transcripts of videos, without requiring Flash < 1270154504 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they had that feature I would use it. < 1270154606 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes; and proof assistant. The development of its second version is going at a leisurely pace. < 1270154846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone needs TeX. < 1270154852 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270154873 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270154898 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270154901 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With some sort of drawing support, so I can write stuff and have it unicodified. < 1270154962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the iphone needs to be softer and more porous < 1270154987 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a more comfortable tactile experience and better retention of fecal matter < 1270155004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saw some article about "Youngest iPhone developer?" Apparently the person's 14 < 1270155015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, I don't think that sort of thing impresses ehirdiphone < 1270155043 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HE CODES FOR THE IPHOME??????22221 < 1270155050 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ifoam < 1270155087 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive setoid : * := over : Pi (A:*). Pi (R:BinaryRelation A). setoid < 1270155090 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after extensive experimentation, i have to say i still find regular 2-ply paper preferrable to any version of the iPhone < 1270155182 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive setoidV : * -> * -> * := mask : Pi (A:*). Pi (R:BinaryRelation A). A -> setoidV A R < 1270155278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Function setoidT : Pi (S:setoid). * := match S with over A R => setoidV A R end. < 1270155315 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ implicit argument jiggery: < 1270155381 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type rational : * := setoidT (over (natural x natural) (too lazy)) < 1270155383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Coincidentally, the N900 repository has texlive. < 1270155393 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1270155408 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine it being very friendly to use. < 1270155428 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a whiteboard :) < 1270155434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and friends :( < 1270155440 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laaaaaaaawl < 1270155471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setoid would be better as < 1270155505 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive setoid : * := over : Pi (A:*). BinaryRelation A -> setoid. < 1270155550 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My cardinality stuff was awesome < 1270155614 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except you need to add that A -> B has cardinality \aleph_0 iff B has. I think. < 1270155621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1270155646 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or otherwise... Hmm, more than the cardinality of B. < 1270155665 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|A| * |B|, I think. < 1270155677 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an axio < 1270155679 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1270155723 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't prove it, requires a bijection from A->B to naturals or finite set (naturals mod some N) < 1270155830 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Does INF -> FIN really have infinite cardinality? < 1270155837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw. Finite. < 1270156186 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270156212 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait. < 1270156229 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it is infinite. < 1270156246 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:0, 1:0, 2:0, ... < 1270156260 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:1, 1:0, 2:0, ... < 1270156278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:1, 1:1, 2:0, ... < 1270156280 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1270156317 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type theory has really boring cardinalities < 1270156341 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 <= card <= \aleph_0 < 1270156388 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn < 1270156425 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1270156779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does mean that the biggest thing can be constructed trivially, though — Inductive N : * := z : N; s : N -> N. < 1270156813 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what of Set and its ilk? < 1270156829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red oval, green oval, blue oval < 1270156839 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there are only countably infinite types. < 1270156848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's number them! < 1270156852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm type 842 < 1270156866 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could easily add: < 1270156909 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bijections between functions/types tofro naturals < 1270156940 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8723 :: 23 -> 974 < 1270156971 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For functions, metajustification: if you can analyse functions' in/out pairs on countably infinite sets it can never exceed their cards < 1270156992 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For sets, too lazy to come up with a real justification < 1270157023 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual implementation for functions could be serialise ast. It doesn't matter. < 1270157279 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270157856 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270158002 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270158050 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan. < 1270158077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1270158110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, can you read email on that thing? < 1270158132 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pow S := sum T, forall x:T, x in T -> x in S < 1270158155 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "in" is risky. < 1270158166 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1270158170 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The axiom < 1270158187 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S:*) -> pow S < 1270158191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is risky < 1270158196 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes < 1270158227 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want, read the email I sent to agora BUS: Re: In Honor of B < 1270158236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just http://pastie.org/private/vv0eusi1ahas50htd7w < 1270158296 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1270158311 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait pow is subset < 1270158377 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pow S := sum T, forall U, (forall x, x in U -> x in S) -> U in T < 1270158536 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in : forall T, T -> * -> Prop < 1270158585 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in T x U := T === U < 1270158593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for a more comfortable tactile experience and better retention of fecal matter < 1270158596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...right < 1270158607 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't allow for subsets. < 1270158627 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270158871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:11:57 Type theory has really boring cardinalities < 1270158872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:12:21 0 <= card <= \aleph_0 < 1270158886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i thought cantor's proof was constructively valid < 1270158893 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, netcat doesn't seem to support IPv6... :-/ < 1270158905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive apart (T:*) : T -> T -> Prop := lfer : forall T, forall x:T, forall y:T, (exists P, P x /\ ~P y) -> apart x y < 1270158920 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah but you cannot construct the reals < 1270158925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: There's a netcat6 < 1270158930 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the computable reals < 1270158942 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're just functions on rationals < 1270158957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: but (Integer -> Bool) can have no bijection with Integer, or whatever < 1270158969 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1270158972 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1270158995 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And all that means is that the comp reals have no cardinality as such < 1270158999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(terminating (Integer -> Bool), of course) < 1270159012 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1270159037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume you have a bijection b : Integer -> (Integer -> Bool) < 1270159038 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an infinite list of books < 1270159042 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bools < 1270159077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then \n -> not (b n n) gives a contradiction < 1270159089 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think fax said something about this it is only metatheoretivally valid < 1270159096 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically < 1270159113 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm why? < 1270159130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if (s)he means it in the sense that there _are_ countable models, then that is true of ZFC as well < 1270159139 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she < 1270159145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there can be no bijection _internal_ to the model < 1270159159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or surjection, for that matter < 1270159176 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway why is that a contradiction? Of course you have no idea what b does < 1270159209 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind I am really tired < 1270159221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for b to be a surjection _means_ : forall f : Integer -> Bool, exists n : Integer such that b n == f < 1270159234 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ofc < 1270159239 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1270159252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let f = \n -> not (b n n) < 1270159264 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1270159275 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then? < 1270159295 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f n) where b n = f? < 1270159306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270159317 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it is _|_. I see. < 1270159330 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the functions are strictly bigger. < 1270159344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270159369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do we just have |R| or more? < 1270159398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in ZFC they are of course equal, but here i don't know < 1270159410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess R -> R must be bigger. < 1270159416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But. Wait. < 1270159429 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It cannot be |R| surely < 1270159438 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we cannot constrict the reals < 1270159442 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nstrict < 1270159444 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Construct < 1270159456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed you meant something called the reals in your system < 1270159472 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant beth-one < 1270159478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270159483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is afaik _meaningless_ to compare cardinalities from ZFC with cardinalities in your system < 1270159500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1270159501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not in the same fundamental theory model < 1270159510 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270159515 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the infinite cardinalities are? < 1270159538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and outside a model, everything can be considered countable if the axioms are (and they must be if things are finite strings) < 1270159563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well cantor's theorem can be iterated of course, to get a sequence of larger sets < 1270159581 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But it needs the reals. < 1270159598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computable reals are definitely smaller than the reals < 1270159602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i'm talking about something more fundamental than the reals < 1270159611 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because almost all reals are uncomputsnle < 1270159626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm not paying much attention :) < 1270159626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, A^B is _always_ larger than B if A has at least 2 elements < 1270159639 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B -> A yeah < 1270159658 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool -> () < 1270159661 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one < 1270159674 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\b.tt < 1270159689 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or A->B? < 1270159706 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270159708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B -> A < 1270159712 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A needs two elements < 1270159726 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\().true, \().false < 1270159729 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bigger < 1270159765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not. for infinite cardinalities in ZFC, A^2 always has the _same_ size as A < 1270159780 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"at least" two < 1270159786 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not more :P < 1270159809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|unit -> A| = |A|, surely. < 1270159810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm i thought you were still confused about A -> B vs. B -> A < 1270159831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use arrow notation to restate it :p < 1270159834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A^B is a notation for (B -> A) < 1270159847 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused though. < 1270159863 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh larger than B < 1270159866 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic ic < 1270159876 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1270159886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's intuitive based on cardinalities, |B -> A| = |A|^|B| in ZFC < 1270159913 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe type theory "cardsets" — canonical types of a certain card are < 1270159949 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270159962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N mod m (Fin m), N, N -> Bool, (N -> Bool) -> Bool < 1270159966 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270159975 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except what would the last look like... < 1270160003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it presumably could only look at finitely many N for each function < 1270160016 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Induction? < 1270160028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe < 1270160053 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly that's propositions, not booleans, but... < 1270160063 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy enough to do afaict < 1270160077 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just set P := (=== True) < 1270160095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can't have Prop -> Bool < 1270160101 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no not induction < 1270160136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270160235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just feels, intuitively, like if your (N -> Bool) -> Bool function does not recognize its argument somehow (and wouldn't something like the halting problem prevent it from doing so in general) then it cannot really do anything better than testing specific N values < 1270160260 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(P z \/ ~P z) -> (forall n, (P n -> P (s n)) /\ (~P n -> ~P (s n))) -> (forall n, P n) \/ (forall n, ~P n) < 1270160268 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excluded middle lol < 1270160291 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah < 1270160337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that induction would work < 1270160361 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say B x := if x then Unit else Bottom < 1270160364 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1270160381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1270160471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(B (f z) \/ ~B (f z)) -> (forall n, (B (f n) -> B (f (s n))) /\ (~B (f n) -> ~B (f (s n)))) -> Bool < 1270160484 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: So we can do induction < 1270160568 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive B : Bool -> Prop := yep : B true < 1270160628 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270160881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270161115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the Epigram language? < 1270161161 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270161381 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-31-200-91.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270161614 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270161658 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270161846 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270162163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270162192 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270162464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270162938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5841 < 1270162973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, you're two minutes too late. i cannot _possibly_ read this now. < 1270162978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1 april RFC this year it seems) < 1270162986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, two minutes two late? < 1270162987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270162992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also hi < 1270163025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Packets do not have birthdays, so packets can be marked as surprised when they encounter unexpected error conditions." < 1270163045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's April 2 now < 1270163063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well sure, but RFC are published in US timezones < 1270163069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also it isn't April 2 in UTC < 1270163087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in UTC you have two hours - 5 minutes left < 1270163090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get going < 1270163116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be _cheating_ < 1270163309 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270163352 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270163573 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270163939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270163996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it wouldn't < 1270163998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1270164151 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270164170 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270164243 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270164293 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends AnMaster a few packets with the user mood >:) < 1270164349 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah, Wikipedia's being clever by using misleading wording instead of outright lies :P < 1270164387 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Japanese multinational conglomerate (headquarters pictured) investigates how some of its customers were accidentally sent back in time to the year 1999." < 1270164396 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sony investigating the PS3 date bug) < 1270164411 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, Wikipedia always does that < 1270164421 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never looked before :P < 1270164442 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hulu has a 3d button < 1270164476 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.hulu.com/internal/confidential/the-initiative-chapter-1 < 1270165259 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270165660 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270165715 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270166405 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270166520 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :History | News: 0 events tunes.org private sector in the beginning of Christ Foundation | http: / / / ~ 2 per year - and through Torah mandelstam. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270166768 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270167219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270167241 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxguxcvnhvjafhzr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270167259 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION generates a text file containing ten web sites' Terms of Service. < 1270167284 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION delimits them with "bork bork bork bork bork" < 1270167323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, BSV files. < 1270167641 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270167678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270167684 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'd like to generate a three-word Markov chain out of this. < 1270167816 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess three words is too much to ask, so I'm generating a seven-character one instead. < 1270167844 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the average word contains one and a third characters. < 1270167963 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t a wo c o an a t ch. < 1270168033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient inca god of markov chains < 1270168342 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270168639 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"B. Types of Service is not changes upon the Ass, and all lawsuits brough the injury, the account integer. If a Products or goods the number of your period, The Roster" < 1270169150 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270169374 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO AGREE TO THESE TERMS, DO NOT CLICK "AGREE," AND DO NOT USE THE SERVICE IN ANY MANNER WHICH CREATES THE IMPRESSION THAT SUCH ITEMS BELONG TO OR ARE ASSOCIATED WITH YOU OR, EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED HEREIN, ARE USED WITH BLP’S CONSENT, AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE NO OWNERSHIP RIGHTS IN AND TO ANY OF SUCH ITEMS. < 1270169935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Sony investigating the PS3 date bug) <-- link? < 1270169941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270169942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :front page? < 1270169948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks there < 1270169956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's some nice timing < 1270170239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1270170286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: try reloading now < 1270170296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles innocently < 1270170325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I got the old version still < 1270170328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in another tab < 1270170335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good :D < 1270171414 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it's surprisingly difficult to create a user from the command line in OS C. < 1270171435 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe that in the 90 versions they've released since OS X, they still haven't fixed that. < 1270171565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wow, it's surprisingly difficult to create a user from the command line in OS C. <-- yeah, I heard it is all a chimera that OS . < 1270171585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try OS X instead :P < 1270172177 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270172521 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270174461 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270175246 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270175563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270175686 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270177500 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270177911 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270178367 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270179636 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270180281 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270180302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270180890 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270181073 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270181277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270183320 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a wireless mouse! < 1270183897 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's working < 1270183902 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feels a bit fast though < 1270183921 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And randomly nonworky < 1270185037 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.27.213 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270186384 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270187576 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270187824 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270190414 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270191444 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No one minds if I mutter to myself in the channel, right? < 1270191453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not generally. < 1270191507 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. Going to try to work out a sane way to think about AW action scripts to see if it might be TC [given an assumption that TC means you can add more "memory" as needed] < 1270191552 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, objects have names, and can, in response to existing, in response to user input, and in response to receiving a signal, send a signal to a name < 1270191563 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Names do not have to be unique < 1270191646 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The receiver of a signal can have a timer such that, its "signal done" event occurs some time later. Other objects can interrupt such events and stop them from occuring < 1270191682 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, if an object receives a signal, by itself it can't decide "if this I'll do this, otherwise I'll do that" < 1270191698 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, names can be changed, and not just by sending and receiving signals < 1270191714 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have too much of a headache to think about all of this. I should really just sleep. < 1270192242 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1270192980 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270193902 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270194872 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270195199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270195200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270195628 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270195802 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270196495 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-31-200-91.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270198100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270198485 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270198956 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270201041 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270201906 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270202545 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-75-239.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270203147 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270203247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:31:55 This is the Epigram language? < 1270203249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's just me < 1270203266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:04:05 AnMaster: it's April 2 now < 1270203274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you are very late: 12 am is the end of the fools. < 1270203386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mart < 1270203407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A dark delimitation. < 1270203696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hey, |Sigma x:T, P| = sum x:T, P < 1270203712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is i think one of my favourite isomorphisms ... |x op y| = |x| op |y| < 1270203729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean? < 1270203733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|.| < 1270204255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cardinality < 1270204256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although since we're talking type theory and have no |.| :: Type -> Cardinality < 1270204256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually more involved < 1270204256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like |a+b|=|a|+|b| is actually < 1270204256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hc(a,n) -> hc(b,m) -> hc(a+b, n+m) < 1270204256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where hc = "has cardinality" < 1270204257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance the statement about sigma would require some sort of function < 1270204271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((y:T) -> hc(P[x := y], something)) < 1270204282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where x[y:=z] is variable substitution < 1270204290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an assumption < 1270204476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: but err you know the type theory notation in general right? < 1270204482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a+b is Either a b < 1270204487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not really < 1270204489 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1270204491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know that < 1270204497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*b is -- cartesian product here -- a pair of a and b (cardinality |a|*|b|) < 1270204526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(non-dependent) a -> b has cardinality |b|^|a|, but using b^a for that like in set theory is ugly < 1270204532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, you know, we like our functions < 1270204540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having it all in hugely nested superscripts would be silly < 1270204585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1270204586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what the cardinality of Pi (x:T). S is... < 1270204617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where T and S are types? < 1270204617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :product (x:T), |S|? if so that would be so perfect < 1270204620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270204627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's see < 1270204631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say cardinality of 3 -> 3 < 1270204637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a, b, c : 3) < 1270204646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|3| = 3, obviously < 1270204653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's 3 * 3 * 3 < 1270204655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 3^3 < 1270204658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1270204659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's right < 1270204687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi (x:T). S is basically a definition of TxS where i live < 1270204699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal math that is < 1270204701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270204743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1270204774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah but S can include x < 1270204805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl : Pi (T : *). Pi (x : T). x = x < 1270204831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is type of types smaller than *... I don't want to think about its cardinality right now < 1270204853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for a given type T, Pi (x : T). x = x has the cardinality of T... < 1270204855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could have more complex things < 1270204855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider < 1270204870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi (x : N). Pi (y : N). x = y -> () < 1270204873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember -> is shorthand for Pi so < 1270204880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi (x : N). Pi (y : N). Pi (_ : x = y). () < 1270204893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now of course this is the same as Pi (x : N). () < 1270204894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to continue my sentence ...it's S^T < 1270204908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it certainly isn't the obvious thing < 1270204922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also () = 1... < 1270204926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not the number < 1270204926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we call it 1 < 1270204930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has one value < 1270205039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\prod_{E:n=m} -- there's only ever 1 or 0 values of type n=m < 1270205093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi (x : T). x = x <<< what does this mean, the type of functions that ...? < 1270205111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about the asynchronicity, i'm doing two things at once and i suck at it. < 1270205151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi (x:T).S is like T->S, but the value of the T is bound to x in S < 1270205168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its cardinality is product (x:T). S which is fitting because the tw are the same notation < 1270205172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just this isomorphism again < 1270205220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in Pi (x : T). x = x what does = x mean < 1270205262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270205264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the cardinality of Pi (x : T). x is 1 < 1270205267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = x is just nice notation for Eq x x < 1270205272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270205278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is? < 1270205280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all values x and y of the same type Eq x y is a type < 1270205290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is < 1270205291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl : x -> x = x < 1270205296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it has a more complicated type but ... that is the relevant parts) < 1270205299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the rest is just type stuff) < 1270205312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if we have a value of type x = y, we know that x and y are completely indistinguishable... < 1270205317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just equality < 1270205341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have m,n : N, and we know that m = n < 1270205343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the two must be exactly the same < 1270205350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have \x. f x x refl < 1270205358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is exactly the same as f, just with less stupid arguments < 1270205363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.3405.png < 1270205394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the cardinality of functions (n:N) -> (m:N) -> n = m -> () < 1270205399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the same as the cardinality of the naturals < 1270205418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the only function of type N -> () is \_.() < 1270205424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270205427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1270205428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pi n : N . 1 has cardinality |N|? < 1270205431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1270205435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last bit is wrong < 1270205447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1270205452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.3406.png < 1270205453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1270205459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 1*1*1*1*... = 1 < 1270205476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note the bold 1 in the |...| denotes the type with one value, tt : 1 < 1270205483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the non-bold 1s are just the regular number 1 < 1270205496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the product in the |...| denotes dependent functions... < 1270205503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas after it's normal numbery products < 1270205527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say n : N, then Eq n n is a type? what values are of that type? < 1270205585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me just give you the definition in pseudohaskell < 1270205608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Eq : forall a, a -> a -> Type where < 1270205617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl :: a -> Eq a a < 1270205619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1270205625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl :: (x:a) -> Eq x x < 1270205669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.3407.png < 1270205673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalised for non-1 result types < 1270205688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought i know that already, if x is of type a, then Eq a a is a type. i still don't see what things can be of that type < 1270205694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that if T = Bool, |T| = 2, so we have 2^N_0, which is the cardinality of the reals... < 1270205697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*knew < 1270205700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually they're the computable reals for us, but < 1270205703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Eq x x < 1270205711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you are wrong < 1270205717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x is of type a, and y is of type a, then Eq x y is a type < 1270205731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I restate things it's because you said something that was wrong < 1270205742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x:a -> Eq x x is a type is just a special case of that < 1270205747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1270205749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't even true < 1270205753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't even remotely correct < 1270205756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eq :: (A : Type) -> A -> A -> Type < 1270205765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl :: (A : Type) -> (x : A) -> Eq x x < 1270205771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is a type one is a value < 1270205775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if x is of type a, and y is of type a, then Eq x y is a type" <<< i just instantiate this with x and y the same object < 1270205778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Eq x y is a type for ALL x and y < 1270205784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: but it's IMPORTANT < 1270205789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if they had to be the same it would be a useless type < 1270205791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i get "if x is of type a, and x is of type a, then Eq x x is a type" < 1270205806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S A FUCKING USELESS TYPE ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME WHAT IT CAN CONTAIN < 1270205811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god you suck at explaining things < 1270205813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl :: (A : Type) -> (x : A) -> Eq x x < 1270205816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have; several billion times. < 1270205828 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll ask fax at some point < 1270205837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't sign up to teach type theory to someone who doesn't know it, so it's no surprise I'm not prepared for it. < 1270205843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl does not return a type. < 1270205846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh refl is a value :P < 1270205846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It returns a value of type Eq x x. < 1270205854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is Eq, actually, because types are values. But. < 1270205855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay thanks < 1270205878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have Eq x y, but only Eq x x is inhabited. < 1270205878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay i see it now < 1270205885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the rest are uninhabited, so we can't prove (give a value) them. < 1270206211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay i see what Eq is now, the haskell does indeed explain it completely < 1270206266 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270206332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Eq x y is inhabited by ":)" if x = y, otherwise there's no value of that type < 1270206362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much yep < 1270206365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's refl not :) < 1270206375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously if we have m,n:N and m=n, m and n are completely redundant < 1270206469 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-62.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270208126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15:04:05 AnMaster: it's April 2 now < 1270208126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Then you are very late: 12 am is the end of the fools. <-- ? < 1270208133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that UK tradition? < 1270208134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1270208142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh; perhaps it is only UK tradition. < 1270208151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly is but I assumed it was so elsewhere too. < 1270208155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never heard of it before at least. < 1270208166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it has fallen out of favour in this interblaggy world. < 1270208175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it went on for the whole day < 1270208188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1270208239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270209040 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270209526 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1270209599 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-62.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270209709 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270209812 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-62.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270210346 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270210379 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270211937 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270212050 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@86.72.35.91 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270212889 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270213536 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270213598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270214972 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270215278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270215372 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270216046 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270217938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from kernel changelog (for 2.6.33.2): "We believe this is a secure hole that a none privileged user can crash the system." Interesting, err, word choice. < 1270218068 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270218101 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270219193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can access /my/ secure hole hur hur. < 1270219585 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how legal it would be to make a language based on the Active Worlds action line stuff < 1270219815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1270219892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, another interesting sentence from the same changelog: "Fix this by explicitly storing the end of the biggybacked data in the decompressor, and use that to calculate the compressed image size." < 1270219892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1270219901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biggybacked! < 1270219923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, grandma, what a big back you have! < 1270219943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL THE BETTER TO LAY YOU WITH < 1270219944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get it? < 1270219946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lie on your back? < 1270219947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lay? < 1270219948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hilarious? < 1270219949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augh < 1270219961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh it wasn't innuendo? < 1270219962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no idea I was so awesome < 1270219966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course it was! < 1270219989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I thought to begin with then < 1270220222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have noticed that in the kernel changelog the most awkward English grammar in commit messages seems to be written by *.jp people (according the the email in the author line) < 1270220248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not just in this changelog, but almost every kernel changelog I read so far, which must be quite a large number by now. < 1270220288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(either that, or Japanese sounding names with an email @intel.com, that is fairly too) < 1270220292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly common* < 1270220379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; Standard Japanese Programmer English is a strange breed. < 1270220402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why, hm < 1270220430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese is very different from English. < 1270220440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Engrish is ubiquitous in Japanese culture. < 1270220455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270220478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about Hollywood movies and such on TV? < 1270220564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they dubb those? < 1270220575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably. < 1270220580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do everywhere else :-) < 1270220585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1270220592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally they just add text lines at the bottom < 1270220595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'd say that Japan imports less culture from other countries. < 1270220600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably because we're too busy importing all theirs. < 1270220696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone I know who once visited Germany (for an extended period of time, business stuff iirc) told me that she was bored one day and decided to see a movie at the local cinema. She decided on a Bond movie thinking "oh well, I can always understand the English and ignore the text lines". Unfortunately it turned out it was dubbed. < 1270220706 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270220719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Sweden only movies aimed at children are generally dubbed. < 1270220752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you strongly push English there. < 1270220762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less so in Germany I would imagine. < 1270220768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because people actually speak German ;-) < 1270220782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, shoulda pirated it! < 1270220789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do generally speak Swedish though :P < 1270220798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this was during the early 1990s iirc < 1270220805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, that would have been fun < 1270220812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hells yeah, ZMODEM! < 1270220851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tarski, one of the early great researchers in set theory and logic, proved that AC is equivalent to the statement that any infinite set X has the same cardinality as the Cartesian product X x X. He submitted his article to Comptes Rendus Acad. Sci. Paris, where it was refereed by two very famous mathematicians, Frchet and Lebesgue. Both wrote letters rejecting the article. Frchet wrote that an implication between two well known truths is not a new < 1270220852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1270220852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :result. And Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false statements is of no interest. Tarski said that he never again submitted a paper to the Comptes Rendus." < 1270220892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AC is not alternating current here right? < 1270220903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom of choice < 1270220943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270220998 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270221084 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how someone who thought that one was the truth and the other was false would react < 1270221187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure that is trivially contradictory. < 1270221192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, they were proven to be equivalent. < 1270221201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the rejection would be "LOL you made mistake" < 1270221209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "Nice paper, boy. It's shit." < 1270221440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One reason why the negation of the axiom of choice is trueAs part of a complicatedtheory about a singularity, I wrote tentativelythe following :We apply set theory with urelements ZFU to physicalspace of elementary particles;we consider locations as urelements, elements of U,in number infinite. Ui is a subsetof U with number of elements n. XiUi is the infinitecartesian product and a set of paths. < 1270221481 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270221525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think "LOL you made mistake" would be "somewhat" anachronistic in this case < 1270221547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STFU Cantor --Wittgenstein < 1270221555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1270221573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hilbert, you're a fag. Please commit program-suicide. --Godel < 1270221587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1270221606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Pretty sure it was "Gödel"? < 1270221615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy. < 1270221623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that should be transcribed as "Goedel" in English then, shouldn't it? < 1270221650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but nobody does. < 1270221657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol - "Axiom of Life" = "~choice" < 1270221671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270221675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's what Hamlet said! < 1270221677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=2243319629 group of idiots < 1270221709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we know that 2b = 2*b < 1270221712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as far as types go < 1270221713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 = bool < 1270221715 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270221716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a*b = (a,b) < 1270221716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1270221722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270221725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bool,b) \/ ~(Bool,b) < 1270221732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we interpret ~ as implication of falsehood < 1270221738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bool,b) \/ ((Bool,b) -> False) < 1270221754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either you can construct a value of type (Bool,b) or you cannot < 1270221760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of strange syntax for "and" is (a,b)? < 1270221766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not and. < 1270221773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh multiplication then? < 1270221774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*b = (a,b) in type theory < 1270221777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270221779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple < 1270221781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270221782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1270221788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, * is somewhat overloaded :P < 1270221792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a*b| = |a|*|b| < 1270221797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also cartesian product < 1270221817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is that * = multiplication for the last one? < 1270221819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus it meshes well with disjoint union - a+b - |a+b| = |a|+|b| < 1270221822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270221828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we do dependent tuples then we have < 1270221838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, does that hold true for C? It doesn't, does it? < 1270221839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|sum x:T, P| = sum x:t, |P| < 1270221842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where P involves x < 1270221847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: || is cardinality < 1270221848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not absolute < 1270221864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|sum x:T, P| = sum x:t, |P| --- if P is constant, i.e. doesn't involve x < 1270221866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in " |a*b| = |a|*|b|" ? < 1270221868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then this is just |T|*|P| < 1270221869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1270221883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so normal tuples are the degenerate case of dependent tuples < 1270221888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent function arrows: < 1270221888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the result is the same for abs() for R though < 1270221899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1270221900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cardinality < 1270221902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is about sets < 1270221904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not absolute < 1270221904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1270221908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|prod x:T, S| = prod x:T, |S| < 1270221915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we assume that S doesn't involve x < 1270221917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we get < 1270221918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the overloaded syntax gets confusing < 1270221922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|S|*|S|*...|T| times... < 1270221928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so |S|^|T| < 1270221937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we actually say the function arrow is S^T in set theory... < 1270221947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we assume it involves x of course both of these are more complicated < 1270221954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where ^ is? < 1270221955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's cool < 1270221959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: exponentiation, obviously < 1270221984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not that obvious since most of the other syntax wasn't :P < 1270221998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is not my fault you don't know type theory :) < 1270222013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sum/product types ar enamed that way because they're basically identical < 1270222015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are named < 1270222027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're how you['d define addition/multiplication on things like sets if you had to < 1270222032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, It is just that I get confused when the line is possible to interpret sensibly as more than one thing < 1270222036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition is obviously union - you add all the elements together < 1270222048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: learn to disambiguate based on context < 1270222104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, then ^ could have been XOR as well, not that likely but... < 1270222142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incredibly unlikely - because |S|*|S|*...|T| times is obviously |S|^|T|. < 1270222151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270222864 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1270223152 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270223735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish oerjan was here < 1270223929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was < 1270223933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know when < 1270224147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean now < 1270224333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION proves False from < 1270224335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom func : nat -> (nat -> bool). < 1270224336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom surj : forall f, exists n, forall x, func n x = f x. < 1270224339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan was right, obviously < 1270224344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just felt like formalising it... < 1270224407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it to mean that that either at least one of those axioms is self-contradictory, or they contradict eachother < 1270224431 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, surj uses func < 1270224525 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-15.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270224538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's basically just one axiom < 1270224540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1270224551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have a surjective mapping from naturals to functions from naturals to booleans, we're fucked < 1270224552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :restated: < 1270224560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are more functions from naturals to booleans than there are naturals < 1270224599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Informal proof, due to oerjan: Say the mapping is called magic. Consider f n := not (magic n n). < 1270224610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a function nat -> bool. < 1270224621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We know that for every function nat -> bool, there is a natural number n such that magic n = that function. < 1270224622 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to understand what surjective means, based on the code. /me fails < 1270224631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: simply the above < 1270224637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call f's magic number fn. < 1270224643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now consider (f fn). < 1270224647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := not (magic fn fn) < 1270224650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic fn = f, so this is < 1270224654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := not (f fn) < 1270224659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, f fn = not (f fn). < 1270224663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contradiction. Q.E.D. < 1270224715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: basically a function A->B is surjective if for every x in B, there exists a y in A such that f(y) = x < 1270224726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise our nat -> (nat->bool) mapping could just be < 1270224731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\n.\m.true < 1270224776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: incidentally the axiom of choice is about surjective functions < 1270224798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it states that every surjective function has a right inverse < 1270224803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather is equivalent to such < 1270224807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"right" inverse? < 1270224838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, for every surjective function f : A -> B, there exists a function g : B -> A such that f(g(x)) = x for every x in B < 1270224939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The formal proof that there cannot exist a surjective function from naturals to functions from naturals to booleans: http://pastie.org/900407.txt?key=w45dbutwoqcuuxwkqnpq < 1270224964 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this Coq? < 1270224966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to define not myself - it seems Coq doesn't have it for booleans. < 1270224966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270224991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the proof just went by picking out what surj says about our f - that func n x = f x < 1270225006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then expanding this to not x = x < 1270225010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1270225028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the steps as it goes: < 1270225031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the destruction: < 1270225033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1270225034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall x0 : nat, func x x0 = notb (func x0 x0) < 1270225034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270225034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1270225040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the notdistinct: < 1270225042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1270225042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall x0 : nat, func x x0 = notb (func x0 x0) < 1270225043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270225043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : func x x = notb (func x x) < 1270225047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I just apply H and tada < 1270225055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to learn Coq before attempting to understand this < 1270225061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we apply notdistinct because (b <> notb b) is shorthand for (b = notb b) -> False) < 1270225071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so if we apply it, Coq realises we need to prove (b = notb b) to achieve our goal of False). < 1270225082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which we can do: because surj tells us it is so) < 1270225105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: This also suffices as a proof that the reals are more numerous than the naturals, btw. < 1270225132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a real number as an infinite string of binary bits (it can just end in 0s if it isn't "really" infinite) < 1270225138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nat -> bool) - f n is the bit at position n < 1270225143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reals can be treated as functions from .. ah < 1270225148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (nat -> bool) ~~ real < 1270225157 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270225164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the proof says that we cannot define a function from naturals to reals such that every real has a corresponding rational < 1270225165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1270225168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the proof says that we cannot define a function from naturals to reals such that every real has a corresponding naturla < 1270225169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*natural < 1270225227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270225643 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270226970 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270227736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda is crazy < 1270228471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/ehird/code/univ.agda:16,8-11 < 1270228472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :□∏_ is not strictly positive, because it occurs in the 5th clause < 1270228473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the definition of □_, which occurs in the first argument to □∏_ < 1270228473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the 5th clause in the definition of □_, which occurs to the left < 1270228473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of an arrow in the type of the constructor all in the definition of < 1270228473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :□∏_. < 1270228478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You'd like Agda; it has nice error messages! < 1270228485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to figure out what that perfectly well-formed English is trying to tell me. < 1270228882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail, alise. < 1270228892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho. < 1270228903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have me on Monday, too - such a special week's end this is. < 1270228944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo. < 1270229270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was here yesterday, too: but I was too tired to come here. < 1270229274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on my iPhone here, though. < 1270229277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. < 1270229762 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270230572 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270230682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "□" is a square box? < 1270230687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1270230689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1270230693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, not font issues then < 1270230695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1270230697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ais523 < 1270230702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the magical box of interpretation (I probably should have used brackets) < 1270230706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err lol hi alise < 1270230716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270230718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Man. Microsoft *still* gets buffer overflows. < 1270230733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm not surprised, that's inherent in C < 1270230740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it's hard to check for them < 1270230748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not really. It's inherent in bad programmers for C. < 1270230750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, Splint can statically prove a program has no buffer overflows, but it's not very good at it < 1270230753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can avoid such data structures when possible < 1270230775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course for a binary stream there isn't any good alternative < 1270230783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say that any programmer bad enough to do that sort of thing shouldn't be allowed to touch C when working. < 1270230795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and C doesn't really help with providing other good data structures) < 1270230852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, why this? Has there been a new windows exploit recently or what? < 1270230869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, reading about how they've started doing... Fuzz testing. < 1270230927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And seeing bunches of buffer overflows in office. < 1270230965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in binary formats, or XML formats? < 1270230992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it's the latest version of Office, I'm going to guess "both". < 1270231031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buffer overflows in XML is just embarrassing < 1270231034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuzz testing can be very useful < 1270231062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers finding div by zero errors in both cfunge and ccbi early on using a fuzz tester < 1270231081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's surprising is that they only started doing it. < 1270231087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, such code isn't very good at finding anything but crash bugs, and only ones that aren't extremely complex to trigger < 1270231136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wasn't online yesterday < 1270231142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any good April Fool's stuff I should look at? < 1270231174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two in Agora < 1270231174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, google used microweeks amongst other things to measure how long searches took < 1270231196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One good, the other mine < 1270231213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Programming in C is nearly impossible for a human! < 1270231218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, gigawatts, parsecs, "shakes of a lamb's tail" and Planck times were used too < 1270231222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok < 1270231227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems surprisingly uncreative for Google < 1270231230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the RFC was quite funny too < 1270231233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, they did other ones too < 1270231240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean Topeka, right? < 1270231244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the RFC this time? < 1270231258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maps.google.com.au, did directions in Australian slang < 1270231265 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can do it. For many cases not involving stack munging. < 1270231265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/u,/u/ < 1270231271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(getcontext et al scares me) < 1270231276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, with what error rate? < 1270231284 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google was renamed to Topeka < 1270231286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the Topeka stuff too yeah < 1270231298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YouTube videos had a TEXTp option < 1270231302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah that < 1270231309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[not Google] Reddit made everyone an admin < 1270231310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ASCII art? < 1270231313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, never got that working, was it flash only? < 1270231315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fark headlines were acrostics < 1270231319 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I.. guess < 1270231321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that reddit thing sounds like utter chaos < 1270231323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topeka? Missed that < 1270231329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, as in, couldn't get the html5 stuff to work for it. < 1270231342 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I imagine it might be Flash only < 1270231343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Lower than you'd expect, actually. < 1270231352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I doubt that highly :) < 1270231359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When using getcontext, nearly 100%. :P < 1270231359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the admin-mode changes were local-only < 1270231378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The admin stuff including infinite upvotes/downvotes < 1270231381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which leads me to suspect that I should never, ever touch that.) < 1270231389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the RFC was about a tcp option to mark packet mood < 1270231401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, as in you could perform admin actions but reddit faked the result rather than actually doing it? < 1270231410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mood would be encoded as a string of ASCII chars making up a smiley < 1270231415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and stored the result per user, I think < 1270231424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't remember if IANA were supposed to assign them or not) < 1270231428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, OK < 1270231435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[unless you changed your own headline, I think] < 1270231436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It seems that TEXTp wasn't available in parts of Europe, somebody somewhere said that it worked for him through a US proxy but not from home < 1270231447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and putting unreasonable registration requests onto IANA is standard with April Fools' RFCs, IIRC < 1270231450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5841 < 1270231459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1270231476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha, that's great < 1270231479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, check Agora? < 1270231484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I am < 1270231509 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-31-214-122.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270231513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the first one where you submitted half the proposal is much funnier, given what happened to Nomicapolis < 1270231535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: Programming in C is nearly impossible for a human! <-- hm. That raises some interesting questions about Kernighan and Ritchie.... < 1270231541 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to Nomicapolis? < 1270231590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there was an attempt to copy B's ruleset to it, but accidentally only the first half was copied < 1270231598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what did reddit do? < 1270231599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the resulting ruleset didn't allow rule changes < 1270231604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They can't manage it either, they just only publish their successes < 1270231612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm... < 1270231615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see above, it's me who was asking rather than answering < 1270231629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, o.O < 1270231631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact almost all existing programming languages are completely infeasible for programming which is why we have so many bugs. < 1270231639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does make the accidental post funny < 1270231644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I saw the discussion about it, but I was unable to locate the line where it said what they did. Something related to admin I gathered < 1270231650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people don't want to do a little more work once than do lots and lots of not much work, so they don't use better languages with good type systems. < 1270231650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they made everyone an admin < 1270231660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, to think they were, according to what I was told earlier in this channel < 1270231665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270231668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is all second-hand info, though, and the people who actually told me are still here < 1270231673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I'm confused as to why you're asking me < 1270231675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270231675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ButbutPOINTERS ARE MORE EFFICIENT < 1270231682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270231685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a "turn admin on" link for logged in users < 1270231700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It made an [A] thingy appear next to other user's name < 1270231710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which gave options like ban, x-ban < 1270231713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGDA I AM CONFUSED < 1270231731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It randomly did things like 16.14% shill account < 1270231739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let you "edit" headlines < 1270231770 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upvote and downvote a single thing repeatedly. 10 or more repeated upvotes (not sure if it was 10) made it an upvote to infinity < 1270231778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar in the other direction < 1270231796 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be forgetting some stuff < 1270231815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, I think a language which is C + a proof that it doesn't contain buffer overflows, null pointer derefs, etc. is entirely feasible < 1270231824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues to be annoyed at Splint < 1270231833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for purporting to do exactly what I want, and failing at it < 1270231849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeated variables in left hand side: n < 1270231852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Agda, god damn! < 1270231861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Nowdays I seldom use C unless I'm fixing code already written in C. I guess I still use C if I need to do something low level enough that a high level language is impractical. < 1270231876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watching Ark of Truth now < 1270231916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell do you do dependent pattern matching in this thing? < 1270231926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head (witness (S n) f) (successor n) = ? < 1270231929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complains about repeated ns < 1270231937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, splint is a good idea. In practise I found it useless. Mostly because it generates parse errors on even the most basic C99 code. And sometimes also on perfectly fine C89 code. < 1270231953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: even without parse errors, some of its decisions are just bizzare < 1270231963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sjgdflkgjdfhdklgfhg < 1270231974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, iirc I managed to get splint to segfault when running it on all C files in a directory. The problematic file was one generated by flex. Never found out what in that file caused it < 1270231977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can move a closing brace of an inner scope one line without changing the meaning of the program at all, but with a visible effect on splint's output (warning vs. no warning) < 1270232009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1270232013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, lint-type things tend to be about style as much as semantics < 1270232018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is it that it warns about then? < 1270232025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: my guess is, it's just wrong < 1270232037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see any explanations for that behaviour other than a bug in Splint < 1270232044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if it is just about indention style or something like that, it seems reasonable < 1270232054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, splint is buggy and unmaintained < 1270232074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it was about memory leaks < 1270232122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's a bit messed up, isn't it :-P < 1270232162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270232189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found clang in static analyser mode moderately useful btw. Doesn't detect a lot of stuff yet and somtimes it "crashes" < 1270232194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as in coredump, but as in assert(0 && "Message that only makes sense to a LLVM developer"). < 1270232228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they seem to love assert(0 && "string") btw) < 1270232243 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you prefer assert(!"string")? :-P < 1270232276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270232290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I would prefer never seeing either when running the program :P < 1270232296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAAAAAAAAAAAATE THIS < 1270232298 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah < 1270232304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can't have everything :-P < 1270232330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS DOESN'T WORK < 1270232407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, clang in static analyser mode seems to have fairly low number of false positives for me (less than splint certainly!). And it doesn't warn about completely irrelevant stuff... < 1270232440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really tell anything about number of false negatives. A bit hard to know unless you wrote the code with intentional bugs to test the static analyser... < 1270232469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, define "THIS" < 1270232482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not btw? < 1270232495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stuff < 1270232510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah. < 1270232525 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Dunno < 1270232536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, very precise description that < 1270232586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so you stated that I can't have everything without having any good explanation for why that is the case? < 1270232630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be the way the world works < 1270232638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270232642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't justify why the world works that way < 1270232647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270232679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I first considered asking "why not" to that as well, but that would have been silly < 1270232905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't believe the fuzz-testing Office thing, the article about it was posted on april 1 and claims Microsoft used other people's Windows computers as a botnet < 1270232944 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270233078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1270233154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alex Brown deciding that OOXML is doomed to failure seems to be not an april fool's joke, though < 1270233175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's the same sort of event as Miguel de Icaza noticing that Mono has an unclear patent situation < 1270233380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You have watched 72 minutes of video today." < 1270233694 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-15.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270234160 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270234482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270234825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to experiment with unsafeInterleaveIO < 1270235146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that do? < 1270235172 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deferrs the IO operation until the value it gives is needed < 1270235180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't actually tried it yet < 1270235205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth, I only get an usable wlan signal on my laptop atm if I hold my hand like I was about to change the angle of the lid... < 1270235208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1270235225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: haha < 1270235230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably it only works on input? < 1270235263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is huge too, like -79 dBm vs. -90 dBm for the signal. (My card doesn't report the noise correctly, so no idea about the SNR) < 1270235265 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, say, an IO Integer can be made of something that outputs then inputs, so the output SHOULD be deferred until the input is needed < 1270235268 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm testing < 1270235279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah < 1270235292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll paste the results < 1270235306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I assume you will be able to explain this < 1270235318 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your hand scatters/reflects more of the signal? < 1270235327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably you're reflecting the signal < 1270235337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human skin is pretty reflective wrt microwaves < 1270235346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it doesn't work unless I actually touch the plastic on the lid though < 1270235381 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-90dBm is 1pW and -79 dBm is ~12.6pW... So about tenfold difference... < 1270235401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I hold my hand slightly away (a few mm I guess, hard to measure), I get the bad signal < 1270235426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270235495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, is that p as in pico? < 1270235506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, what does the m stand for in dBm? < 1270235533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "m" there denotes the reference power is 1 mW. < 1270235536 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dB relative to mW. That p was supposed to be multiplier for 10^-12... < 1270235555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: why convert? 10 dBm is a tenfold difference < 1270235559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to convert back into watts < 1270235619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, reference as in? < 1270235628 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 0dBm => 1mW < 1270235630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270235648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24603#a24603 < 1270235660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, wlan signals are _extremely_ weak then... < 1270235670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, dB is a dimensionless unit; -90 dB could be anything, as long as it is 10^-9 of something. < 1270235681 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dBm is the only case I have seen where unit used as reference is not written completely (there's dBV, dBW, etc...) < 1270235687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah, it didn't work? < 1270235696 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it worked perfectly! < 1270235697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at it < 1270235710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only did the interleaved one when it was needed < 1270235718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't notice the first wasn't interleaved < 1270235745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wikipedia dBm page has rather nice table of values; "typical received signal power from a GPS satellite" is listed as -127.5 dBm, or 178 aW. That's not a whole lot. < 1270235747 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270235768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, isn't dB basically "the range we want is awkwardly large, lets use something logarithmic"? ;P < 1270235776 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm in love with unsafeInterleaveIO < 1270235813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it is as unsafe as the name suggests. < 1270235821 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1270235826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for ratios that is < 1270235834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it breaks Haskell's purity < 1270235842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is somewhat less unsafe than unsafePerformIO, but still unsafe. < 1270235846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I wrote that above... seems I only thought it < 1270235848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shun it. < 1270235855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getContents is acceptable in small utilities but not large programs. < 1270235872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1270235873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It means that you can suddenly have errors occuring in any function. < 1270235878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, because if you use it twice it might only run once < 1270235881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the "interleave" in it signify? < 1270235882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because it breaks Haskell's purity. < 1270235889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just use unsafePerformIO if you don't care about that? < 1270235894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, how does it break Haskell's purity? < 1270235896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's unsafePerformIO < 1270235897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically it splits off a lazy thread of IO < 1270235897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Side effects are interleaved with pure code. < 1270235909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unsafeInterleaveIO (... read a file byte by byte) < 1270235910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1270235912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :produces a lazy string of the whole file < 1270235913 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Satellite signals are usually extremely weak. That's why one usually sees modulations that have low SNR requirement (like QPSK). < 1270235916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only read as required by evaluation < 1270235942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider an unsafePerformIO call that does output < 1270235942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then random pure code could cause unpredictable output < 1270235946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the evaluation semantics of the implementation < 1270235949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all haskell specifies is non-strict < 1270235957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: getContents >>= return foo -- You get errors in foo. < 1270235965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq/alise: and the "perform" in the other one signifies that it isn't lazy then I guess? < 1270235986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: unsafeInterleaveIO :: IO a -> IO a < 1270235993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a < 1270235997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270235999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafeInterleaveIO is just return (unsafePerformIO x) < 1270236008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO is, of course, an abomination of the highest order. < 1270236010 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what's that in do notation? do { a <- getContents; return a} < 1270236021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ouch, unsafeInterleaveIO seems very nasty < 1270236025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does haskell even have it? < 1270236029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do {a <- getContents; return foo } < 1270236032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where foo is a pure expression < 1270236037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do { a <- < 1270236047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it is useful: consider interact :: (String -> String) -> IO () < 1270236048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1270236058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270236059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interact f = do s <- getContents; putStr (f s) < 1270236066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: getContents lazily returns all of stdin < 1270236068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is convenient < 1270236072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a hack - but it is convenient < 1270236073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: unsafeInterleaveIO is useful for various small utilities. < 1270236075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the answer is convenience < 1270236076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270236092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, because while it's, with getContents, lazily going through the file, trying to get more out of the "list" may cause an IO error? < 1270236097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the usual "safe" IO facilities implemented using these unsafe ones internally? < 1270236117 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, the unsafe ones are done in terms of the safe ones. < 1270236131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Neither. < 1270236133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's nonsensical < 1270236139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, err. It isn't 1 April any more... < 1270236143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, maybe pikhq was being sarcastic? < 1270236145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: unsafePerformIO is just an internal thing that hacks around with the uber-internal IO data structure. < 1270236148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The default IO operations are primitives. < 1270236156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm < 1270236160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IO data structure is not exposed unless you import internal GHC modules. < 1270236169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: getContents is done in terms of unsafeInterleaveIO and 'safe' IO operations. My statement of this came out confused. < 1270236174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my unterstanding correct? < 1270236175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right. < 1270236182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pretty much < 1270236187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more insidious but that is one special case < 1270236198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Examples of insidiousness please? < 1270236219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm what language is the io primitives implemented in? < 1270236228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be neat if it was haskell < 1270236232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess it can't be then < 1270236236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're part of the Haskell runtime, I'm pretty sure. < 1270236243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Part of the GHC runtime. < 1270236248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one bit of GHC that's not in Haskell. < 1270236251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what pikhq said < 1270236253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270236254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the IO data structure is defined in haskell < 1270236260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and GHC itself is written in haskell (but the RTS is C) < 1270236264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exception: random things like the evil mangler) < 1270236265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC is really gnarly code < 1270236271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts define the Monad class themselves < 1270236275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because haskell didn't have it at the time! < 1270236324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume the stuff not implemented in haskell is kept to a minimum? < 1270236348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the RTS? < 1270236354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite big but it's also rather good. < 1270236358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270236362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And most of the Prelude is in Haskell. < 1270236365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all, in fact. < 1270236371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just auto-specialised behind the scenes. < 1270236560 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just start experimenting with unsafeInterleaveIO, and I get told to avoid it :( < 1270236591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is bad. < 1270236684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My computer just started singing "Good Morning" to me < 1270236743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270236800 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Megavideo: I waited 54 minutes. Now please let me continue watching my video < 1270236897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Metamath is cool < 1270238954 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270240301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270240658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You find the strangest things when digging through old home directories; here's a "cp" replacement that copies files by starting two processes, having the first read the input file, the second write the output file, and doing all communication between processes by using the SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2 signals as the "dit" and "dah" symbols for morse code, and suitable pauses to distinguish words. < 1270240704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why it doesn't just use those two signals as "on" and "off" events (or just one signal to toggle) and timing for even the dit/dah distinguishement; but it's reasonably silly as-is. < 1270240737 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds fun < 1270240930 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reminds me of programming assignment from one course... < 1270241106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it doesn't work for non-text files? < 1270241128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as for using timing: would be unreliable on a non-realtime OS < 1270241129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right. But be honest, how often do you need to copy non-text files anyway? Almost never! < 1270241143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but it's not a problem if you use long enough pauses. < 1270241148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, more often than text files! < 1270241162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only cp command today was to copy a kernel image to /boot < 1270241172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 milliseconds between bytes and 100 milliseconds between words, it seems. < 1270241186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've used cp for about a week now < 1270241198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use mv a lot more often than cp < 1270241200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't copy very often; I did yesterday, but via the GUI < 1270241616 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.20 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270242012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Think maybe you could add the &butiwouldratherbereading= feature to Lonely Dino? < 1270242041 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't be /too/ difficult, I could cut up the images as they are ... < 1270242055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1270242169 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-82-26-214-230.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270242377 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270242387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butiwouldratherbereading? < 1270242395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like an April Fool's URL param < 1270242414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a fun April Fool's Day, you guys! To replace T-Rex and company with Reginald and Beartato from Nedroid, I used the trick of a transparent PNG file that masked out the existing graphics. Then, I was free to put any new graphics on top! The empty mask file is here, if you want to play with it. < 1270242415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And play with it you might want to, because although I've turned off the image replacement by default, it's still available on the site! Just add "&butiwouldratherbereading=nedroid" to any Dinosaur Comics URL and you'll see something like this. < 1270242423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=290&butiwouldratherbereading=nedroid < 1270242426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing < 1270242462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=35&butiwouldratherbereading=nedroid < 1270242465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other params: achewood, pennyarcade, wigu, pokey < 1270242476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=&butiwouldratherbereading=pokey -- thus creating the best comic strip conceivable < 1270242497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: MISSINGNO < 1270242510 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1270242531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more parameters: < 1270242533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd < 1270242536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problemsleuth < 1270242538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daisyowl < 1270242551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1270242551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :onewheretrexswearsmore < 1270242567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=548&butiwouldratherbereading=daisyowl < 1270242726 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that the best way to understand the State monad is to read the source < 1270242776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty comprehensible anyway < 1270242788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically what you do in Haskell if you really want to make it an imperative lang < 1270242806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, more fun would be some sort of State variant that stored an associative array with ways to update individual elements < 1270242827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the ST monad except with STRefs only storing one type? < 1270242854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, you could compile imperative langs almost literally < 1270242865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270242943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's nothing to do with ST. < 1270242949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is an entirely different strange beast altogether. < 1270242974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is a safe IO monad. < 1270242982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, different from State [I know], or different from what ais523 is describing [please explain]? < 1270242985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just the reference part. < 1270242987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its semantics are odd. < 1270242990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh, I see < 1270242992 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270242997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well. Yes. That's what makes it safe. < 1270243001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State is simply - you know how you could pass an extra argument to every function, Sgeo? < 1270243007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just call with a modified argument to change state? < 1270243015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State just wraps that into a monad so you don't have to pass it around. < 1270243018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The semantics are identical, < 1270243019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State is pretty much the purest form of a Haskell monad, I think < 1270243020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*identical. < 1270243023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know what it is, I'm trying to understand how it works, which is why I'm reading the source < 1270243027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a monad, and the monad chain is accessible and user-defined < 1270243056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to most monads which are designed to stop you arbitrarily changing the underlying chain, or even determining anything about it except via accessors < 1270243079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are so pass. < 1270243123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, they just get all the press because they're unusual to people who don't know Haskell < 1270243173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent types are the shiznit. < 1270243191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, people actually use the word "shiznit"? < 1270243215 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In theory, I could make my own function that is in the State monad that has state and a value passed to it, without using "get" and "put" < 1270243216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have talked to people who think monads are a gargantuan, subtle, and strange library. < 1270243229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Especially when talking about mathematics! < 1270243237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1270243237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Of course. < 1270243252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's what it's /for < 1270243253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1270243255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The State monad is a fairly simple thing. That'd be pretty easy to do. < 1270243272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, he means < 1270243276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accessing state directly using the constructors < 1270243280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing the State monad grants you is nice sugar for that. < 1270243297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah < 1270243303 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to clarify my understanding quickly, a >>= b >>= c is parenthesized as a >>= (b >>= c) ? < 1270243316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It does not matter. < 1270243322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The monad laws require the two to be equal. < 1270243329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, but it does not matter for any proper monad. < 1270243344 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mindbreaks < 1270243361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one of the monad laws. < 1270243377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which way of thinking about it would make the definition of >>= for State easier to understand? < 1270243379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why do you struggle with simple identities? < 1270243382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. < 1270243397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: think of "a >> b" as "do a then b" < 1270243405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's obvious that a >> b >> c the parens don't matter < 1270243414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and >>= is just a version where you can grab a return value < 1270243437 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, surely there was a time when you struggled with this stuff. When was that? < 1270243472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I picked up monads pretty quickly < 1270243474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Not necessarily THIS stuff in particular, but Haskell in general, or specific parts of Haskell] < 1270243474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, absolutely, I struggled with monads. < 1270243495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I just seem to notice a sort of pattern where you have issues abstracting out simple laws to understand instances satisfying those laws. < 1270243502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm wrong. < 1270243517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly I must have my own flaws in understanding that I do not myself notice. < 1270243554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule one with monads: they are simpler than you think. Rule two: they do nowhere near as much as you think. Rule three: there is no magic. < 1270243601 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntactic sugar doesn't count as magic? :D < 1270243605 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule four with monads: you may need more pixie dust. < 1270243653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's no magic. < 1270243658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hah. < 1270243825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he gets State's >>= < 1270243991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish fax was here < 1270243995 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270244005 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270244044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi comex < 1270244090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fax is in #haskell < 1270244097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1270244110 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wish fax was here // Awwwww < 1270244119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to ask about type theory kthx < 1270244313 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270244731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I need to learn to understand Functors and Arrows < 1270244764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functors are trivial. < 1270244769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As are arrows. < 1270244769 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, about my learning, I've noticed that I like to read a lot of different tutorials < 1270244775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if we have a surjective mapping from naturals to functions from naturals to booleans, we're fucked <-- note that "naturals" can be replaced with any set there < 1270244787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functors are objects where fmap makes sense. < 1270244793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the real numbers don't make up a set? < 1270244813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: _in both places_ < 1270244853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1270244868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is indeed true (in ZFC) that there is no surjective mapping from reals to functions from reals to booleans. < 1270244927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also booleans can be replaced with any set that has a self-map without fixpoints (i.e. any set with at least 2 elements in ZFC) < 1270244957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of that relies on the C in ZFC? < 1270244963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i said it that complicatedly because i'm not sure if those are equivalent concepts in ehird's type theory stuf) < 1270244968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nothing at all < 1270244971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stuff < 1270244998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270245001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION generalises it not to have nat; I realised it didn't need it but didn't think to formalise that < 1270245013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just my default theory for it. in fact it is essentially true for constructive set theory as well, which is why alise and i started discussing it < 1270245062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is true in type theory of course < 1270245065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly so since I formalised it < 1270245100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my intuition type theory is almost the same thing as constructive set theory. < 1270245110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost, but not quite. < 1270245114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type theory has an equality type for instance. < 1270245129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And set theory, well, doesn't really have "dependent" sets in any meaningful sense. < 1270245133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you could have a simpler constructive set theory than that < 1270245135 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270245146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus things like quotient sets and the like - but the fundamental theories, sure. < 1270245151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://pastie.org/900901.txt?key=gfjqr1tonuchocnutw2dqw < 1270245203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am surprised Coq does not already have notb/notdistinct. Or maybe it does? < 1270245210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact this is probably a theorem of pure lambda calculus, and the halting theorem, godel's incompleteness theorem and cantor's theorem are all special instantiations of it (diagonalization) < 1270245247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1270245249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It exists. < 1270245250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negb < 1270245267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diagonalisation is beautiful. < 1270245360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270245515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://pastie.org/900907.txt?key=ny2be0sujqn23hvkcty1fa < 1270245525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could generalise it from bool if you want, but... < 1270245581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270245587 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270245704 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I consider rewriting some of my Python stuff in Haskell? < 1270245721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, most of it is on my old computer, so meh < 1270245740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops = < 1270245740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let e := magic_surj in < 1270245740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match e (fun n : T => negb (magic n n)) with < 1270245740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ex_intro x H => < 1270245740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let n := no_fixpoint_negb in < 1270245741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match n (magic x x) (sym_eq (H x)) return False with < 1270245742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end < 1270245744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1270245798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Internet's back! < 1270245970 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270246128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270246142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay we managed to outrun him again < 1270246152 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270246191 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270246255 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270246339 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270246506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270246808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : unsafeInterleaveIO is just return (unsafePerformIO x) < 1270246838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except with a guarantee of not evaluating more than once < 1270246879 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270246955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used it in Malbolge Unshackled to create an infinite lazy datastructure containing IORefs. afaik that usage is perfectly safe. < 1270246977 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO can't get evaluated more than once? < 1270246984 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, things made with < 1270246999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory it can < 1270247090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell compilers are perfectly permitted to inline pure code in multiple places < 1270247694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hence "unsafe" PerformIO) < 1270247730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant unsafeInterleaveIO < 1270247730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that's funny; if you have alsamixer open, and then unplug the (USB) sound card it's controlling, you get http://pastebin.com/NL8Sew2t < 1270247853 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1270247860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: indeed, it would be useless for its purpose if it could be evaluated more than once. imagine do l <- getContents; return (l,l) returning two different lists consisting of unpredictable parts of input < 1270247898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and getContents uses unsafeInterleaveIO internally < 1270247909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something very close to it) < 1270247961 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there some function (Monad m) => m m a -> m a? < 1270247968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, join < 1270247976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*m (m a) < 1270247998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:21:43 Just to clarify my understanding quickly, a >>= b >>= c is parenthesized as a >>= (b >>= c) ? < 1270248001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:21:56 Sgeo: It does not matter. < 1270248004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:22:02 The monad laws require the two to be equal. < 1270248027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it must be (a >>= b) >>= c, the other one isn't even well-typed < 1270248044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :i (>>=) < 1270248064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn egobot always disappearing < 1270248066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it do with IO, and could unsafeInterleaveIO be written without unsafePerformIO using join somehow? < 1270248078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh of course < 1270248092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1270248094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ?, and no < 1270248095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--from memory < 1270248109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it defers running the actual action until the result is needed. no way of doing that with join. < 1270248140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it was the fixity/precedence i was looking for, actually < 1270248154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1270248169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infixl 1 < 1270248177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so left as you'd expect < 1270248183 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still gets confused by fixity < 1270248202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's associativity and precedence bundled into one < 1270248217 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'm confused by associativity < 1270248227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where associativity is in the syntactic sense < 1270248261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, should a >>= b >>= c mean (a >>= b) >>= c, a >>= (b >>= c) or be disallowed altogether? < 1270248277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are infixl, infixr and infix, respectively < 1270248281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is which.. oh < 1270248326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which side you start combining terms from, essentially < 1270248349 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL HAS NO CONCEPT OF FIXITY < 1270248350 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when you mix in other operators of equal precedency? < 1270248377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: note that those first two are foldl (>>=) [a,b,c] and foldr (>>=) [a,b,c] respectively < 1270248389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL HAS NO CONCEPT OF NULLITY < 1270248395 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it does, I was thinking ARITY < 1270248398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would be, if they were compatible types < 1270248460 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270248463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: join x intuitively runs x, then runs the result immediately as an action in the same monad. no deferring involved. < 1270248483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you cannot simulate it without some special function < 1270248521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course monads other than IO may not strictly obey the concept of running things immediately) < 1270248585 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are Arrows? < 1270248594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a type class < 1270248672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kind of strange bundling of features afaict < 1270248695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're morphisms in a category, so functions are your main example. < 1270248720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can compose them with >>> . for functions f >>> g means g . f < 1270248729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270248729 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270248729 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270248754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they also include operations to combine stuff "in parallel", using pairs < 1270248756 0 :dixon`!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270248759 0 :dixon`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell blows ass < 1270248762 0 :dixon`!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270248778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (f &&& g) x = (f x, g x) and (f *** g) (x,y) = (f x, g y) < 1270248791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(again using the function example) < 1270248794 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm convinced. Let me brain bleach all my Haskell knowledge. < 1270248805 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270248805 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270248812 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-2-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270248822 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey talk about the monomorphism restriction < 1270248831 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also talk about how unstandard GHC is < 1270248851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't understand that restriction, as it goes away if you add a type signature < 1270248861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that says just what the compiler had inferred anyway < 1270248870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you disable it < 1270248877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What _is_ it? < 1270248878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it there? < 1270248909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the basic idea is that if you have an equation of the form x = ... then you should be able to expect the right side not to be evaluated more than once, in practice < 1270248925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that's related... < 1270248955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the type involves type classes, then the right side can only be evaluated after you pass the actual type dictionary into it < 1270248973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1270249031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must be evaluated at least once for each type it's used with, and it may be hard for the compiler to catch all uses of the same type so even that might be duplicated < 1270249054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my understanding of the x = ... case. < 1270249078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantically that should be equiv unless unsafePerformIO is involved, right? < 1270249114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantically it's irrelevant < 1270249152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the (x,y) = ... and similar cases there is the additional complication that the type of x or y separately might not determine the full type dictionaries to use in the right part, so in that case you're not even allowed to override with an explicit type signature < 1270249192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the compiler could try to be cleverer there, the standard does not demand it < 1270249224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. but someone has apparently coughed up an example where this causes exponential blowup in execution time < 1270249227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1270249244 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why I just use C < 1270249284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for nonstandardness of GHC i don't know, unless you mean its heap of extensions which are optional... < 1270249294 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"""optional""" < 1270249312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return quadrescence :: IO Chatter < 1270249358 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that doesn't even make sense < 1270249360 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice try tho < 1270249393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1270249471 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: optional aka turned on by default < 1270249511 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270249575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't use ghc so i don't know, i thought you had to use a flag for almost everything < 1270249596 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you use? Hugs? < 1270249634 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oerjan is sane and uses Standard ML with MLton < 1270249638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've recently downloaded the Haskell Platform, but i just saw that winghci will be bundled only with the coming release so i'm waiting a bit) < 1270249648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that, winhugs < 1270249715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i got seriously annoyed when ghci insisted on waiting for the gvim editor to quit and i see winghci avoids that) < 1270249758 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gvim _tries_ to fork itself to avoid such unless you add a flag, but ghci somehow manages to thwart it) < 1270249779 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why isn't Monad a "subtype" of Functor? (why it doesn't inherit from the Functor typeclass) < 1270249794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: hysterical raisins < 1270249800 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270249810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"historical reasons" < 1270249813 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270249839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270249839 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270249844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor was invented after Haskell 98 was standardized < 1270249865 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical functors and monads weren't invented with Haskell < 1270249879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at first haskell only had monads < 1270249886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm feeling so sick that I had better go to bed now < 1270249887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they've never managed to implement the "case class" feature that is supposed to make things seamless < 1270249887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodbye < 1270249892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270249905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er it's not case class < 1270249913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is channeling scala < 1270249962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Scala any good? < 1270249968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or should I stick with Haskell? < 1270249976 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scala is great < 1270249986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know i've just read about it's case classes < 1270249988 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has type safety, runs on the JVM, object oriented < 1270249996 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can run on the android platform < 1270250017 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still functional < 1270250027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: as of now you only need to implement (>>=) and return to make a Monad. and haskell doesn't currently have a feature that allows you to deduce a _superclass_ method (Functor's fmap) from that, that's what this class something feature would do < 1270250082 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270250084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they would also like to put Applicative in between, there < 1270250110 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1270250189 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270250280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of duplicated functionality between Control.Applicative and the older Control.Monad, in fact i once counted there were only a handful or so of functions in Control.Monad which were _not_ generalizable to Applicative < 1270250380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of that is in Data.Traversable as well iirc < 1270250422 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270250448 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270250560 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270250586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bit in Data.Foldable < 1270250640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its ^^^^^ < 1270250654 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270251290 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont know how to compute the product of gaussian periods < 1270251438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks it up < 1270251459 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270251590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects a connection with harmonic analysis of finite abelian groups < 1270251922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERNET < 1270251966 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270251988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ET INTERN < 1270252124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if z^5=1 what is the value of z+2z^2+z^4 ? < 1270252200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparentnyl it's always a rational, but it's not... < 1270252211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What's the type of z? < 1270252225 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complex number < 1270252231 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complex real* < 1270252290 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think -1=(z^2+z^4)+(z^3+z^1)=x1 + x2 should mean that x1*x2 is a rational < 1270252377 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: HAWT < 1270252413 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a good thing Gore created the Internet instead of Clinton, or it would have been the Intern-net *BA-DUM CHING BAD JOKE* < 1270252418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270252530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Complex> [z+2*z^2+z^4 | let r = mkPolar 1 (pi*2/5) , z <- map (r^) [0..4]] < 1270252550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[4.0 :+ 0.0,(-1.0) :+ 1.17557050458495,(-1.0) :+ (-1.90211303259031),(-0.999999999999999) :+ 1.90211303259031,(-1.0) :+ (-1.17557050458495)] :: [Complex Double] < 1270252577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::S < 1270252584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about z^2+z^3? < 1270252610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Complex> [z^2+z^3 | let r = mkPolar 1 (pi*2/5) , z <- map (r^) [0..4]] < 1270252610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2.0 :+ 0.0,(-1.61803398874989) :+ 1.11022302462516e-016,0.618033988749895 :+ (-1.11022302462516e-016),0.618033988749895 :+ (-1.11022302462516e-016),(-1.61803398874989) :+ 2.22044604925031e-016] :: [Complex Double] < 1270252626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be real < 1270252630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1270252636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270252645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z^2 is the conjugate of z^3 < 1270252666 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1270252668 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they're inverses and on the unit circle < 1270252690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's really just Re (2*z^2) < 1270252697 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270252828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270253025 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270253064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270253104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently mkPolar 1 is also known as cis < 1270253121 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270253127 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cos + i sin" < 1270253151 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pissed off about this cyclotomics < 1270253161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know, i meant it was a defined haskell function < 1270253227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270253243 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270253284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z^5 = 1 and not z = 1 means z^4 + z^3 + z^2 + z + 1 = 0 fwiw < 1270253305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that's one of the results, but it also is simply polynomial division < 1270253329 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270253332 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z^4 + z^3 + z^2 + z = -1 < 1270253369 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we should be able to extract two sequences, x1 = z^4 + z^2, x2 = z^3 + z (say) such that x1+x2=-1 & x1*x2 = < 1270253375 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270253413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270253425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to be true though :( < 1270253449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well z and z^4 are also conjugate, so z+z^2 and z^4+z^3 are conjugate < 1270253466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and multiplying conjugates at least gives a positive real < 1270253480 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6180339887498945 < 1270253496 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is 1+phi, which is not rational) < 1270253518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm a bit lost now as for what I should do < 1270253523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another option would be z+z^3 and z^4+z^2 < 1270253536 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that gives 0.38196601125010515 < 1270253550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 1/2.6180339887498945 < 1270253609 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270253629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know this stuff, anyway < 1270253764 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyclotomic polys are easy < 1270253765 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jeez < 1270253871 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!hs let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum $ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum $ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1]) < 1270253875 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum $ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum $ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1]) < 1270253879 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`haskell let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum $ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum $ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1]) < 1270253882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :egobot is not here < 1270253922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-4.0) :+ (-5.06434096082401e-016) :: Complex Double < 1270254010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may try privmsg'ing lambdabot. prepend with "> " < 1270254023 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Galois Data.Complex> multiplicativeGroupGenerator 52 < 1270254023 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Galois Data.Complex> map(\i->2^i`mod`5)[1..4][2,4,3,1] < 1270254023 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Galois Data.Complex> let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/5)) :: Complex Double in (sum $ map (w^) [2,3])*(sum $ map (w^) [4,1]) < 1270254026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-0.9999999999999999) :+ 6.861555643110582e-17 < 1270254038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that won't show up here < 1270254053 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplicativeGroupGenerator 5 = 2 < 1270254073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orbit of 2 in multiplicative Z/5Z = [2,4,3,1] < 1270254082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270254093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the periods (w^2+w^3)(w^4+w) = -1 < 1270254094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is also a generator, i should think < 1270254097 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought I did this...... < 1270254105 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just pick the first generator < 1270254153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said, exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/5)) = cis (2*pi/5) < 1270254176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don\t understand what I had wrong before < 1270254197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This mouse still feels too weird < 1270254213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we didn't try that splitting < 1270254214 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, changing the speed of the thing also changes the speed of the trackpad < 1270254219 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(w+w^4)*(w^3+w^4) <------- augh!!! < 1270254221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im so stupid < 1270254331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION switches back to his wired mouse < 1270254388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i was trying to suggest things that were conjugates of each other, if the product was supposed to be negative no wonder that didn't work :D < 1270254411 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but you are right -- they are conjugates < 1270254432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1270254443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they were conjugates their product would be positive < 1270254462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(w^2+w^3) and (w^4+w), that is < 1270254469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right I see < 1270254503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's a 'fast' way to calculate the value of (w^2+w^3)*(w^4+w) < 1270254511 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's really confusind and complicaetd ;D < 1270254543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly the right kind of thing for a computer program, you'd think < 1270254586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to program this algorithm but it is really a lot harder than anything I have worked on before < 1270254593 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess that is the wrong way to put it < 1270254599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you tried it imperatively? < 1270254601 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1270254866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270255217 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this... appears to only work for fermat primes < 1270255227 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is not good because there are other primes < 1270255348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? what goes wrong for 7, say? < 1270255368 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well give me 10 mins I will try p = 7 on paper < 1270255397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{1,2,3,4,5,6} lessee < 1270255417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{2,4,1} nope < 1270255440 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,2,6,4,5,1] < 1270255445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the orbit of 3 < 1270255447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{3,2,6, < 1270255453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was _getting_ there :D < 1270255455 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270255456 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1270255510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you take (w^3+z^2+w^6)*(w^4+w^5+w^1) ? < 1270255519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would, if it worked < 1270255571 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did i get that z there < 1270255583 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pasteit4me.com/312001 < 1270255621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270255672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, so [3,6,5] and [2,4,1], or [3,4] and [6,1] < 1270255716 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,4], [2,5] and [6,1] < 1270255725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the thing splits into 2*3 or 3*x < 1270255727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the thing splits into 2*3 or 3*2 *** < 1270255732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh any two? < 1270255752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1270255757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you multiplied all three < 1270255767 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270255777 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general if we have an orbit that covers the whole group [a,b,c,d...] < 1270255807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like you can share it out (one for me, one for you, one for him, one for me, ...) into sets which (obviously sum to -1) and multiply to make a rational number < 1270255821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why they multiply to make a rational..... I have no idea < 1270255828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you are taking all the cosets of a subgroup? < 1270255838 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270255843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I guess they are cosets aren't they < 1270255854 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the group is Z/pZ by the way (multiplicative) < 1270255870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don'tknow if I neglected to say that earlier) < 1270255891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understood that much < 1270255902 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i wouldn't call that Z/pZ... < 1270255924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia used a superscript X < 1270255983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm since the multiplicative group is cyclic, i guess all subgroups are cyclic too so given by a single element < 1270256006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ooh that explains why you can keep doing it! < 1270256074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit usesless to know that y1+y2+y3 = -1 & y1*y2*y3 = 1 < 1270256076 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't solve this equation < 1270256087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact if this is the case you don't need to find a primitive root at all, unless you want to classify everything < 1270256096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1270256100 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p-1 is always even < 1270256111 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(p > 2) < 1270256228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG BLUE BUBBLEGUM JONES < 1270256241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, fax! :D < 1270256244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION glomps fax < 1270256248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur :))) < 1270256260 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had an idea for a fun little challenge < 1270256266 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe thing? < 1270256271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah did i mention it to you? < 1270256280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive been modelling simple universes < 1270256288 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a universe ? < 1270256351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so in this context, a universe is some topology, some number of particles that inhabit that topology (or some properties over that topology, take your pick), and some number of rules that govern the physics of those particles in that topology < 1270256399 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur WOLFRAM?? < 1270256410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1270256419 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like cellular automata < 1270256424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure you could model (some) of these universes as CAs < 1270256428 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except on arbitrary topology < 1270256431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the physics dont have to be defined CAly < 1270256436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there are non-CA rule sets? < 1270256438 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how < 1270256444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could do so if you wanted. < 1270256481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as an example, imagine you had an infinite discrete universe with a particle occupying one position in the universe < 1270256506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say that it has a constant velocity in some direction and so forth < 1270256513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure you could also define a CA for this tho < 1270256772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you know the setup of the game? < 1270256859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so < 1270256862 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds very difficult < 1270256889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is rather, i think < 1270256895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to reiterate, the game goes like this < 1270256924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i secretly design a (simple) universe. then i provide to you the causal graph of the universe < 1270256932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw -- x1 = z^3+z^6+z^5 ; x2 = z^2+z^4+z^1 gives x1 = -1/2-sqrt(-7/4) ; x2 = -1/2+sqrt(-7/4) < 1270256933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to determine the design i used. < 1270256951 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, the causal graph is a picture ? < 1270256965 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur I want to try this but I am not likely to win < 1270257008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the causal graph is basically just a directed graph, where each node is one of the possible configurations of the universe, and each directed arc connects a configuration to a "successor" confiuguration < 1270257017 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem is, I know that z^3+z^6+z^5 = -1/2-sqrt(-7/4) -- but that doesn't help me find any expression for z^3 or whatever < 1270257022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie the configuration the universe would be in after running the physics one time unit forward < 1270257087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could imagine a universe with a single point in it, and that point has a single property Energy that is one of the integers, and the "physics" is such that Energy increases by one every time step < 1270257111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well z^3 is a 7th root of unity, i don't know whether they can be expressed with real roots < 1270257133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the causal graph of this universe is basically 0 -> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> ... where each state corresponds to one of the configurations {(point, energy)} of the universe < 1270257144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this make sense, fax? < 1270257166 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaugely :) < 1270257180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or imagine you have a universe that is a string of text < 1270257184 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of length 3 < 1270257203 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with say 1 of 26 "particles" (letters) in each position < 1270257214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"aaa", "aab", ... < 1270257215 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well there is a theorem that every root of unity can be expressed in radicals (from Gauss) < 1270257219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the configurations of this universe < 1270257233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: oh < 1270257235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I am completely failing to see how it works for non-fermat primes < 1270257242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then theres some physics that says each "configuration" is followed by, lets say, the "next" string < 1270257253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or god only knows what the universe is, right < 1270257262 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur yeah I get that it just seems if you can choose any rule you want that it's impossible to figure it out < 1270257273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let me give you a very simple one :) < 1270257277 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270257282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is a simple causal graph: 1 -> 1 < 1270257365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the simplest universe i can think of < 1270257390 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks < 1270257391 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270257399 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot universe < 1270257401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmon, think of what kinds of universes this could be :) < 1270257409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the universe and the physics < 1270257419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually its a whole class of universes, but < 1270257421 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is {1} and the physics is I < 1270257455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yeah. the universe is a 1x1 universe with no particles (or 1 particle) and no physical laws that change anything. < 1270257471 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively it could be seen as any universe with no particles an no physical laws that change anything < 1270257485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres the next simplest one i can think of < 1270257488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 1, 2 -> 2 < 1270257504 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is {1,2} and the physics is I < 1270257508 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270257517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what do you mean bye {1,2}? < 1270257520 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1270257527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 1 and 2 that i used are just names for configurations < 1270257527 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, BYE! {1,2} < 1270257531 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the nodes of a graph < 1270257535 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no edges yet < 1270257536 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, couldn't help myself) < 1270257550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the nodes in the graphs are not the universe < 1270257565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is a topology plus a physics that this graph describes < 1270257614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe envisioned is as follows: < 1270257630 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 1x2 universe with one particle (which can be in either location) and no physics < 1270257654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, a 1x1 universe with one particle (which can be pointing in either one of two directions) and no physics < 1270257672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a particle which can be either red or blue! < 1270257677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the configurations for the former are: [o| ] and [ |o] < 1270257683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :) < 1270257693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for the latter: [<] and [>] lets say. < 1270257763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres another universe thats similar: 1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 3, 4 -> 4 < 1270257874 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure you can imagine what this is < 1270257898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a 1x2 universe with two particles *ducks* < 1270257904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope :) < 1270257914 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you hve some physics in there < 1270257924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no physics < 1270257929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing changes < 1270257930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then definitely not < 1270257938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that universe would be [o|o] < 1270257944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would have only one state < 1270257955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making its causal graph the same as the first universe: 1 -> 1 < 1270257956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't say particles couldn't be in the same position < 1270257967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhaaa good thinking oerjan :) < 1270257972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, you're right < 1270257975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be that universe < 1270258002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i predict the number of possibilities will become hopelessly large, fast < 1270258009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could be a 1x1 universe with a particle that faces one of four directions, or two particles that face one of two directions, or, ... < 1270258018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the number of possibilities might < 1270258028 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im not looking for _my_ solution, just _a_ solution < 1270258048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so heres another universe thats kind of interesting < 1270258053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"faces directions" sounds similar to momentum. < 1270258067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270258089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 1; 7 -> 1; 8 -> 4 < 1270258095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to use Haskell for everything < 1270258147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill even be generous and tell you the physical makeup of the universe < 1270258153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x2, one particle. < 1270258207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we have 2^3 states, so one bit could correspond to position of particle < 1270258230 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :) < 1270258242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a truism, ofcourse < 1270258252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, modulo anything else, the particle can be in exactly two positions < 1270258263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the universe has at least 2*n configurations < 1270258266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it means the particle can have 4 inner states in each position < 1270258273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're veeeery close < 1270258293 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270258301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now just figure out what the physics is :) < 1270258306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could point in each of four directions < 1270258314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1270258364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1270258381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i make it a rule that the particle is _always_ changing position, each step < 1270258386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1,3,5 and 8 correspond to the same position, 2,4,6,7 to the other < 1270258442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we can say that 7 and 8 are both pointing down < 1270258475 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, when you interpreted 1x2, did you interpret that to be 1 high or 1 across? < 1270258598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the particle always rotates its pointing direction each step, but skipping the down direction < 1270258622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe this gives the required graph < 1270258635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 high < 1270258639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what i intended :p < 1270258662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er what's what you intended < 1270258679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 high < 1270258717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 and 4 point left, 2 and 5 up, and 3 and 6 right < 1270258725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rotation is clockwise < 1270258744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270258827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thatll do it :) < 1270258886 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let me do one thing to my universe: expand the size to 2x2 now. the causal graph is as follows: < 1270258901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this analysis was made somewhat easier by the fact it contained two aspects that did not interfere with each other < 1270258920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 1; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 3; 13 -> 14 -> 5; 15 -> 16 -> 7 < 1270258937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identical physics, one particle, just in 2x2 not 1x2 < 1270258954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by identical physics? < 1270258959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, not the physics oyu just devised, but the physics that i had in mind. < 1270258964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270258969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as before. < 1270258977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this universe and the previous one are different _only in size_ < 1270258982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we have 4 positions rather than 2 < 1270258987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do. < 1270259012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are still 4 inner states possible < 1270259019 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1270259029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming those can be selected independently < 1270259033 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270259061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they can, but the physics constraints which configurations are possible as next configurations. < 1270259091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all of this you can assume that all properties of particles are independent of their position < 1270259144 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-gftfxhstlpnklczf JOIN :#esoteric < 1270259154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270259481 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270259508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time there are 8 non-repeating states, while there were only 2 the last time < 1270259537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean states which, once left, are never again reached? < 1270259538 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1270259566 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill give you an even better hint < 1270259576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think of the particle as a robot instead, the physics makes more sense. < 1270259624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means doubling the positions did not just add an extra irrelevent bit, it has to interfere with stuff < 1270259633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. :) < 1270259635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*irrelevant < 1270259652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, there would be only 4 non-repeating states < 1270259654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no constraint on the configurations that the particle can appear in < 1270259680 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the particle can be found in each of the four positions in each of the four states. < 1270259686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the new bit and the old ones have to have physical interaction < 1270259724 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me know if you want more hints < 1270259740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 1; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 3; 13 -> 14 -> 5; 15 -> 16 -> 7 < 1270259752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep :) < 1270259821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is still room for one bit aspect that does nothing but flip each turn (in fact this is clearer here since you numbered things to alternate odd/even turns) < 1270259845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, im not using your physics but mine. so you cant assume its doing what yours did :) < 1270259850 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270259869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want another hint? < 1270259872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but i _am_ assuming i have to come up with something that fits the previous one as well < 1270259891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise this would be easy < 1270259894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270259911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: its not always changing position, nor internal state, during each time step. < 1270259926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it *is* at least changing one of them < 1270259939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um the last point is obviouas < 1270259942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-a < 1270259953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just making sure that it was :P < 1270260052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1270260121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've got it, just checking < 1270260157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 1; 7 -> 1; 8 -> 4 < 1270260171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it < 1270260180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking it gives the same < 1270260288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270260357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each step, _if_ the particle is pointing toward another reachable position, it moves there. otherwise it rotates clockwise. this fits both universes. < 1270260367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bingo. :) < 1270260430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1270260478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now figure out the structure of this universe, given those physics, and 1 particle: < 1270260509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this is turning out more interesting than i expected :P < 1270260528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 2 -> 1; 3 -> 4 -> 3; 5 -> 6 -> 5; 7 -> 8 -> 7; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 2; 13 -> 14 -> 3; 15 -> 16 -> 4 < 1270260547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tell me the geometry of the universe. < 1270260548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same physics? ok. < 1270260586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can already figure it must be a universe with 4 positions. but what are their arrangement, and is there more to the geometry than just that. < 1270260625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is at least some toroidal stuff going on < 1270260644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only way you could flip between two states with those physics < 1270260693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait four positions... < 1270260704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait yes < 1270261242 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm a bit disappointed < 1270261257 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought this program would be able to derive solution for the cubic equation and stuff like that < 1270261263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems like you have to hard code all that in :[ < 1270261272 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the roots of unity subroutine) < 1270261284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless I am [hopefully] missing something) < 1270261541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ideas yet, oerjan? :) < 1270261553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the universe is 2x2, with the left edge and right edge wrapping to each other. one (but not the only) assignment of states to positions is: < 1270261556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/6/10/15 2/5/12/13 < 1270261558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4/7/9/16 3/8/11/14 < 1270261567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270261569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bingo. < 1270261633 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270261693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to look at larger universes, and see if there are any parallels between them when you wrap one dimension < 1270261716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or see if there are parallels between when you wrap one dimension and when you wrap a second < 1270261750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if you enjoy this, i can try to put up a site with a bunch of these < 1270261784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the first, there would be 2*n final cycles where n is the number of rows < 1270261798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for each going left, the other right < 1270261813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each of length m < 1270261843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270261864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each of those cycles would have m incoming paths of length n < 1270261874 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, half of them would < 1270261890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 2*m*n cycles < 1270261923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1270261929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are actually 2*n cycles < 1270261936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were right the first time < 1270261953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um s/cycles/states in cycles/ < 1270261976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, only the top and bottom rows would have incoming paths < 1270261985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right yes, sorry :) < 1270261999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m*n each < 1270262030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now are there any salient relationships between the unwrapped universe and the wrapped universe? < 1270262052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n to each of the m states in the cycle < 1270262110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the downwards and upward paths still exist in both < 1270262145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unwrapped universe has only one cycle, along the border < 1270262190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270262197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 2*(m+n) states in it < 1270262202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the state graphs < 1270262211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keeping the state labels the same in both < 1270262269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1270262320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it and see ;) < 1270262335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, everything _not_ approaching a border is of course the same < 1270262351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edges, that is < 1270262357 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean everything that _is_ approaching a border < 1270262363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, half the borders < 1270262366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because half the borders remain < 1270262405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by approaching i mean being next to, about to collide with it or pass through < 1270262432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah only the changed borders < 1270262448 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270262453 0 :samosa!~Miranda@unaffiliated/samosa JOIN :#esoteric < 1270262458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270262466 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1270262479 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im new. < 1270262481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION eats samosa < 1270262486 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this channel for? < 1270262490 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1270262503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: conclusion, only 2*n edges are actually removed and 2*n added < 1270262509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270262511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric programming languages < 1270262522 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1270262540 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1270262543 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-__- < 1270262556 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lulz, i mean what does esoteric mean? < 1270262597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case it means weird and often useless < 1270262602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric, (adj.): unusual and not well-known. < 1270262627 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1270262680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. < 1270262680 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World! < 1270262735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also frequently unreadable < 1270262748 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can fungot do ///? < 1270262748 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: you don't know what is correct?) not declared in this scope points to *here*" ( or newline). < 1270262767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know of < 1270262794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately a couple of our bots are missing, including the one with most esolangs in it < 1270262817 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, fungot is _written_ in one (and implements two others) < 1270262818 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: please note how carefully i used capitalization, rather than against mine except for locative-object ( which makes no sense < 1270262857 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I ask fungot what languages e implements? < 1270262858 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: and the best, mmh. < 1270262863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: um, someone claimed you were == uorygl, is this correct? < 1270262868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1270262868 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1270262872 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. < 1270262888 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were not uorygl, I would be impersonating uorygl, which is not a nice thing to do. < 1270262904 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fungot only implements two languages? Bah. < 1270262904 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: eh what? < 1270262907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so oerjan, did you want me to put up one of those sites? < 1270262928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean having the same last 3 letters is impersonating? < 1270262938 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If those letters are "ygl", yes. < 1270262967 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On another network, instead of uorygl/mibygl, I'm Warrigal/Mibbigal. That's also an impersonation sort of thing. < 1270262994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i don't think i'll be spending a lot of time on it, honestly. but who knows. < 1270263004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww ok. < 1270263026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if i offered a cash prize for a theory of how to infer properties of the universe from the properties of the causal graph? < 1270263027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1270263048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: you have to note that fungot implements those languages _in_ befunge < 1270263049 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan:, so i'd like to keep the secret weapon secret!" if you eval what magic outputs in javascript, but there would be < 1270263069 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr, I want a ///bot. < 1270263083 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it does not expose befunge itself to others than fizzie, presumably for security reasons) < 1270263202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm fungot does have definable commands though < 1270263202 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which wasn't that fnord at all < 1270263210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show < 1270263210 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble < 1270263214 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270263229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: just write a /// interpreter in brainfuck and you'll be all set ;D < 1270263292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: your bots are missed < 1270263321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270263344 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I could figure out what keeps happening to 'em. < 1270263350 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270263351 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270263398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: did you see me mention itflabijtslwi in response to your comment about /// and input? < 1270263445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//********/.//.0 < 1270263451 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 < 1270263597 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1270263607 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270263714 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /!/@@@@//@/####//#/$$$$//$/ nom/om! < 1270263715 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom < 1270263729 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*itflabtijtslwi < 1270263748 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I want to do /// busy beaver stuff. < 1270263766 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try to write the program of length N with the longest finite output. < 1270263772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270263814 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call that length ?(N). < 1270263822 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders when ?(N) is first larger than N. < 1270263877 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, /x/yyy/xxx is 10 long and outputs 9, /x/yyyy/xxx is 11 long and outputs 12. < 1270263904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270263947 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By using that trick a bunch of times, as I did in that om nom nom thing, you can achieve nearly exponential growth. < 1270263958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems hard to do something fancier in that short span < 1270263976 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, what's the best you can do in 80 characters? < 1270263998 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270264075 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a simple attempt: /0/1111//1/2222//2/3333//3/4444//4/5555//5/6666//6/77777//7/88888//8/99999/00000 < 1270264111 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it outputs 2,560,000 characters. < 1270264127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270264129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@@@** < 1270264129 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ < 1270264191 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if we had a Slashes unescaper. < 1270264274 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the result of that substitution is /*\*/+\+//+\+/*\*\*\*/? < 1270264296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1270264449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway as you can see it doubles the number of **'s < 1270264467 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\// has 38 characters, right? < 1270264482 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1270264483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say so :D < 1270264516 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just plopped two in, you'd have four characters to spare... < 1270264535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270264543 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use that twice. < 1270264550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1270264566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should give you something 2^2^n < 1270264589 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using two probably doesn't help at all. < 1270264648 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270264722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270264751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**++ < 1270264796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270264812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270264812 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-------------------------------- < 1270264825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270264826 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ < 1270264848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh we're already beyond 80 < 1270264926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1270264967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270264967 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------- < 1270264979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270264979 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :------------------- < 1270265005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270265005 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------------------------------------------- < 1270265007 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I'd think that the second replacement would replace * with yet anther replacer. < 1270265034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270265040 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Replace @ with * and * with something else in it. < 1270265066 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one will generate a bunch of *s; the second one will turn each * into a doubler. < 1270265084 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see that you're doing something like that already. < 1270265102 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, put some spaces in there so I see what's going on. < 1270265127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\// @@@@ /*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\// ** -- < 1270265128 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------------------------------------------- < 1270265149 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brilliant. < 1270265170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i reduced to 3 to keep it below 80 chars < 1270265188 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that actually is what I was looking for. < 1270265225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, that causes it to take some more time to get up to speed < 1270265232 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why doesn't that first output a bunch of *? < 1270265240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**---- < 1270265240 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- < 1270265244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1270265252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270265263 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the first /@/\/... just makes the @s into *s, doesn't it? < 1270265280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must have been fairly big because it doesn't print anything XD < 1270265287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270265287 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ < 1270265322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no, it turns the @'s into * 3/2-icaters < 1270265339 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270265348 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1270265395 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, have you beat the one that uses only one 38er yet? < 1270265410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270265433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i _hope_ the thing with 6 @'s above failed to respond because it got really big < 1270265479 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculate how many it makes! < 1270265505 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 3/2 thing makes that a little awkward :D < 1270265624 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270265642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 5 < 1270265653 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 < 1270265678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 6 < 1270265680 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19 < 1270265694 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that mean? < 1270265722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270265732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means the 5 @'s produce 13 *'s and the 6 @'s produce 19 *'s < 1270265749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 1 < 1270265751 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1270265781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in map (iterate m3h 2 !!) [13,19] < 1270265783 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[316,3597] < 1270265836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell 6*80-9 < 1270265838 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :471 < 1270265873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um wait that makes no sense < 1270265917 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 19 is all you get, then this is worthless. < 1270265946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the @@@@@ one above printed more than 316 -'s, something is wrong < 1270266001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in map (iterate m3h 2 !!) [1..19] < 1270266003 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,4,6,9,13,19,28,42,63,94,141,211,316,474,711,1066,1599,2398,3597] < 1270266067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@** < 1270266067 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************* < 1270266081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@** < 1270266082 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :******************* < 1270266189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 < 1270266204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just checking if my terminal is really 80 wide < 1270266205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1270266271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**-- < 1270266272 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- < 1270266327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the... < 1270266335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is _not_ what egobot printed the last time < 1270266384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had about another line. perhaps that 3597 long one previous caused a bug... < 1270266416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never printed anything, after all. < 1270266465 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway 3597 is worthless, as you say, we hadn't even filled in with @'s from the single substitution one < 1270266543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@@@@@@** < 1270266565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be 4096, although it seems to stall egobot again < 1270266573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes Boo! < 1270266573 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************ < 1270266670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-**/*-/---**************** < 1270266670 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**--- < 1270266704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait that can be reversed :D < 1270266730 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, it can! < 1270266730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-/--------* < 1270266730 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************-------- < 1270266749 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can do that lots of times. < 1270266757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_now_ we're kicking :D < 1270266764 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting something like 2^^14 of them. < 1270266825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--*/--* < 1270266831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270266839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes Boo! < 1270266840 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo! < 1270266854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/--* < 1270266854 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------------**** < 1270266913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/-*\/**-\/\/*-\/--\\*\//@-* < 1270266914 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :----** < 1270266952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/-\\*\/**\\-\/\/*\\-\/--\\*\//@-* < 1270266952 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :----** < 1270266958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /@/\/-\\*\/**\\-\/\/*\\-\/--\\*\//@@-* < 1270266964 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270266970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes Boo! < 1270266971 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo! < 1270266983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently too much to hope for < 1270267058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*//-\*/**\-/--* < 1270267067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes Boo! < 1270267068 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo! < 1270267111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-/----** < 1270267112 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :********************************---- < 1270267130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why didn't the previous one print the same... < 1270267200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i escaped every relevant *- boundary inside the substitutions that i can see... < 1270267201 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are we hoping for that's too much? < 1270267247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick question about the BSD license: What do I put for "Organization", given that it's myself? < 1270267255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be able to copy substitutions into @'s, and then apply them to pass - and * doubling past each other four times... < 1270267259 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270267284 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1270267288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No, completely chaotic" < 1270267294 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your name. < 1270267294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270267307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Neither the name of the Sgeo" < 1270267324 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I put an organization into an Organization box, it credited all my work to that organization. < 1270267344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/--* < 1270267345 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------------**** < 1270267349 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the MIT license like? < 1270267370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/-* < 1270267371 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :----** < 1270267381 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it < 1270267386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*//-\*/**\-/-* < 1270267387 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :********************************---- < 1270267406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was better. and one more iteration would kill it XD < 1270267481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means two @'s is too much to hope for again. hm... < 1270267755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-* => **- => ----** => 32*, 4- => 4*2^32-, 32* => 32*2^(4*2^32)*, 4*2^32- => ... < 1270267829 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if codepad.org is an inappropriate way to distribute this code < 1270268048 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/wd8oGuUT < 1270268051 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a mess :/ < 1270268263 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that code? < 1270268459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python mapping of a C API < 1270268649 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forums.activeworlds.com/showthread.php?p=124425#post124425 < 1270269151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /*1/11*//*\*/*//1*/*1+//1+/+1/*****1 < 1270269164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes Boo! < 1270269164 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo! < 1270269177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /*1/11*//*\*/*//1*/*\1+//1+/+1/*****1 < 1270269178 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11111111111111111111111111111111 < 1270269684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1) < 1270269685 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :000000000000000000000000000000023 < 1270269863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1) < 1270269863 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23 < 1270269939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1) < 1270269939 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 < 1270270001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+/(((((((1) < 1270270002 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11+ < 1270270168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+/(((((((1) < 1270270169 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111+ < 1270270215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1) < 1270270215 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128 < 1270270232 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270270319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(11111) < 1270270319 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 < 1270270362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270270368 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1024 < 1270270861 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270271057 0 :sshc!~sshc@174-19-197-100.bois.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270271062 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1270271062 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270271067 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you got it to output 1024. < 1270271081 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270271265 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271272 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4314 < 1270271278 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271284 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8231 < 1270271287 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271290 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271292 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271295 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :132343 < 1270271298 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2000 < 1270271300 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2662 < 1270271304 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271306 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271311 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1) < 1270271311 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4424 < 1270271313 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13044 < 1270271317 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100000 < 1270271320 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say, this function doesn't make much sense. < 1270271331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270271355 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is what I get for trying to understand things without analyzing them. < 1270271376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what you are doing is changing the output base < 1270271442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 | n <- [2..10]] < 1270271457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 "" | n <- [2..10]] < 1270271460 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :["10000000000","1101221","100000","13044","4424","2662","2000","1357","1024"] < 1270271481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confused < 1270271515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the parts from 2000 and down, at least < 1270271580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 "" | n <- [2..12]] < 1270271582 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :["10000000000","1101221","100000","13044","4424","2662","2000","1357","1024","851","714"] < 1270271652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1270271686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to reorder a bit < 1270271720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(111) < 1270271721 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 < 1270271759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((111111111) < 1270271759 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :432 < 1270271799 0 :Copyleftist!~ixia@72-26-83-201.adsl.gulftel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270271833 0 :Copyleftist!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270271861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((111111111) < 1270271861 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :432 < 1270271905 0 :Copyleftist!~ixia@72-26-83-201.adsl.gulftel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270271906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1) < 1270271906 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128 < 1270271920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1) < 1270271920 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 < 1270271931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((1) < 1270271931 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 < 1270271935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((((1) < 1270271936 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :512 < 1270271988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((111) < 1270271988 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96 < 1270272023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111() < 1270272023 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1270272068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111() 1111() 11111() 111111() 1111111() 11111111() 111111111() < 1270272068 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 4 5 6 43 8 9 < 1270272081 0 :Copyleftist!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270272090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111() 1111() 11111() 111111() 1111111() 11111111() 111111111() < 1270272091 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 4 5 6 7 8 9 < 1270272427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1)) 1((1(1)) (1(1(1)) 1(1(1(1)) ((((1) < 1270272427 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B 100 110 120 130 14 < 1270272459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1)) 1((1(1)) (1(1(1)) 1(1(1(1)) ((((1) < 1270272460 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C0 D0 E0 F0 10 < 1270272479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270272517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270272533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1) 1((1(1) (1(1(1) 1(1(1(1) ((((1) < 1270272533 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F 10 < 1270272548 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270272579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270272583 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you < 1270272643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i should be going to bed but instead i'm apparently doing number display in /// :) < 1270272726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka slashes) < 1270272832 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1270272838 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm writing an arbitrary-precision lib < 1270272856 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i will use to write a serialization lib < 1270272868 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i will use to write a scripting language < 1270272888 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i will use to write simulation software < 1270272897 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i will use to write artificial intelligence < 1270272905 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i will use to take over the world !!! < 1270272920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit i was going to joke how this would end :D < 1270272924 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270272949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed "write an operating system" in there, though < 1270272960 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i don't need to write an os < 1270272970 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where the AI comes in < 1270272974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1270272981 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will write all the drivers for me < 1270273011 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will crawl the web for documents about all devices ever made < 1270273045 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will also reverse engineer Win32 drivers as well < 1270273058 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will do everyone's homework < 1270273074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... that's not a good thing? < 1270273087 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1270273090 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part? < 1270273095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing everyone's homework < 1270273097 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270273100 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya i was jk < 1270273123 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be like, some kinda VIP service < 1270273168 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what would you have AI do for you? < 1270273302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tricky < 1270274762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270274784 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270275464 0 :samosa!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: samosa < 1270277589 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270278715 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270279443 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270280148 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270280624 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270280686 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270281599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270281600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270281743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: PyFunge bug: if ; is the first character in a file, it doesn't work properly < 1270282618 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270283280 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270284047 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270284859 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270286516 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-39.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270287374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, interesting bug < 1270287781 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270288250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, a bit hard to test with mycology though I imagine? < 1270288805 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-19-202.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270288999 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270291788 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-82-26-214-230.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270291835 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-253510.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270294156 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1270294159 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1270294159 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270294755 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270295025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hail < 1270295601 0 :olsner_!~salparot@81-233-241-210-no50.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270297130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hi < 1270297134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1270297160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I found out why I was unable to use some 802.11n networks. Wrong reg domain setting. < 1270297181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that issue confused me for months) < 1270297228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear diary < 1270297235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was on "world" setting, which is defined as the subset of channels allowed everywhere) < 1270297249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wrong window :P < 1270297257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1270297334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you going to tell it then? < 1270297367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I was being a jerk to you < 1270297371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270297436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't be surprised < 1270298478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now where is coppro? < 1270298932 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270298985 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-19-202.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270299663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl for the rest of the day < 1270299668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(out of town, no internet) < 1270299968 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270300107 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1270301738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fpqrsuvtu < 1270301932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten. < 1270303749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well yes, I'd need a separate file but I won't bother with that for a bug that only shows up in one interpreter < 1270304432 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270304731 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270305483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270306372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My rfk86 is a bit prone to unwinnables, because the screen is smaller than is typical, but I think I generate the same amount of NKIs. < 1270306830 0 :olsner_!~salparot@81-233-241-210-no50.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270310195 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-qduaplryrwyifgeu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270312416 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1270312999 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270313196 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270315372 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270317862 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270317902 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-82-26-214-230.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270318235 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270318878 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will try walking outside a bit today < 1270318922 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270321198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten. <-- is that possible!? < 1270321234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, NKI? < 1270321384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I need to figure out how to make ubuntu call iw reg set SV on boot... < 1270321508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err SE of course < 1270321509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not SV < 1270321598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem is that it needs to be done before the wlan interface goes up, otherwise it won't take effect for some reason < 1270321605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus rc.local won't work < 1270322260 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270322994 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-170.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270324310 0 :alise!~alise@host86-139-126-138.range86-139.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270324369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, hello, hello, hello! < 1270324406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hellote. < 1270324473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:00:34 fizzie, NKI? < 1270324473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-kitten items < 1270324475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:59:58 Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten. <-- is that possible!? < 1270324478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently in the flash version. < 1270324498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1270324498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1270324504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I thought the kitten was always generated, but I guess I was wrong < 1270324530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not using my laptop!; I am using the ole' desktop. Not the iMac. < 1270324541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a semicolon after an exclamation mark /really/ valid? I mean, honestly. < 1270324573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ought to be. < 1270324598 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270324645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perfectly, ! is logical not, and ; is "skip to next ; in path" < 1270324665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your wittosity is unmatched, surely. < 1270324669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this world. Universe! < 1270324834 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270325047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In rfk86, at least, the kitten is always generated, but it may be unreachable. < 1270325055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1270325681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg < 1270325683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270326175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh? < 1270326177 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-82-26-214-230.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270326181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does that even make sense? < 1270326359 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270326698 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is alise < 1270326699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fffffffffffffffff < 1270327487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure. You can't move diagonally in rfk86, so if you have an object that is surrounded by 4 other objects (in the corner, 2 other objects is enough), you can't ever touch that object. If it happens to be the kitten, you are out of luck. < 1270327662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can move diagonally in the official robotfindskitten, but that just means you need more stuff to block the kitten totally.) < 1270327773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, after all, robot must touch items to determine if they are kitten or not. < 1270327918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1270327943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I never seen an unreachable object in the "official" one < 1270328088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you hve a large terminal, it's pretty unlikely. But it's still possible. < 1270328119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a 20x5 terminal window (where you only get 20x2 cells of grid) it happens more often than not. < 1270328191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you make a small enough terminal window, robotfindskitten ends up in an infinite 100%-CPU loop; probably it's trying to place objects randomly and not finding any free slots. < 1270328324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270328358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when i was 8 and had that bug < 1270328364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a prog < 1270328972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm terminal is 180x41 according stty size < 1270329135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270329806 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270330935 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-216-79.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270330962 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270330964 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sheep < 1270330975 0 :sheep!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :hiato < 1270330985 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270331114 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270332335 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270333249 0 :isthac!~fdulu@41-132-216-79.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270333372 0 :isthac!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is no entirely satisfied with his nick, wanted something that sounded like it was straight out of lovecraft's work < 1270333426 0 :isthac!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :hiato < 1270333679 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you stuck with it for so long, too. < 1270333851 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, having withdrawel symptoms as we epeak, but my newly hired councellor says i'll get through it < 1270334314 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270334471 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1270334477 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.za is to South Africa as .ch is to Switzerland. < 1270334486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that it's not actually short for any /official/ name. < 1270334487 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1270334540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1270334589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, .za would have at least made since if the TLDs were done in '65. :P < 1270334631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.za is an abbreviation of Zuid-Afrika, Dutch for South Africa. Dutch was an official language there before '65.) < 1270334950 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have to go back a bit farther for .ch < 1270334967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confoederatio Helvetica. < 1270334996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which actually makes a *little* bit of sense. That's apparently minted on Swiss coins... < 1270335068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. .su exists. < 1270335078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TLD for the Soviet Union) < 1270335160 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's someone with the email address n@ai < 1270335188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to see someone with the address root@. < 1270335214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HE ADMINISTERS THE ENTIRE NET < 1270335232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, DNS < 1270335245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENTIRE. NET. < 1270335276 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE TUBERWEBS < 1270335282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1270335344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebooting, kernel upgrade < 1270335482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS TLDs are fairly ridiculous. < 1270335496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.cat is a gTLD. < 1270335503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is reserved for sites in Catalan. < 1270335514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270335537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a somewhat obscure Romance language) < 1270335626 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1270335697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i like to pretend pikhq never googles anything but actually just happens to know everything < 1270335730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1270335737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I <3 me Wikipedias. < 1270335801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles "omniscience" < 1270335843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION once tried to make a mathematical proof that no omniscient beings existed < 1270335869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this wp page about one of our professors that says he studies math and something like alien abductions. i almost asked him about this, but luckily found out that the wp page had actually confused two professors with the same name before < 1270335873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Under what axioms? < 1270335894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't QUITE grasp that Turing machines didn't take/need to take input/output, and that not being computable by a turing machine != not knowable < 1270335905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1270335943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, a UTM is a machine that can compute any algorithm, not a magic machine that does everything. :P < 1270335953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's a UTM + magic oracle) < 1270335973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Magic oracle? Me want. < 1270336540 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270337337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1270337483 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270337691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is hiato's "newly hired councellor" some sort of sneak-dig at the ehird of many names? < 1270337727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't alise back < 1270338250 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270338788 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrrrrr < 1270338984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the input and output of a TM are the tape < 1270339164 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270339246 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270339441 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270339504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck gnome 2.30. They *edited* the old icon theme for the worse. It looks ugly as fuck. And no they didn't save the old icon theme under another name as far as I can tell. < 1270339512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is really annoyed now < 1270340160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah here we go. Old version extracted to /usr/share/icons/gnome-previous < 1270341279 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270341350 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270345112 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270345151 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270345155 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270345532 0 :adam_d__!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270345702 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270346514 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270347107 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270347457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOCTORRRRRRRR < 1270347459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1270347549 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1270347560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAXXXXXX < 1270347568 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1270347575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need somebody < 1270347579 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELP < 1270347582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just anybooody < 1270347585 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1270347626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup girly < 1270347695 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk I can't figure out what to do now < 1270347785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for? < 1270347827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for my self :S < 1270347832 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur < 1270347836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o < 1270347842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch the new doctor who episode! < 1270347844 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand why you can't trisect an angle :D < 1270347855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone talks about doctor who < 1270347856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you CAN trisect an angle < 1270347859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been watching it < 1270347863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not with a compass and straightedge < 1270347866 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270347870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur want me to tell you i < 1270347871 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur want me to tell you it < 1270347955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what who how huh < 1270348036 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof < 1270348600 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1270348601 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fat head < 1270348607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1270348619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rapes fax < 1270348621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait damnit < 1270348624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a girl < 1270348625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1270348633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that didnt happen < 1270348635 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you < 1270348650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am not < 1270348666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IZE A BOY < 1270349715 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270349919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "rape" he of course means "scour one's existence from the earth". < 1270349948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not sure where that takes me, but in the end, your mom's a whore. < 1270350433 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bite off augurs hand < 1270350438 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sucker < 1270351104 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, what's the proof? < 1270351122 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- okay < 1270351157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first thing is to notice that if we have lengths x and y on our paper -- we can also construct x+y, x-y, xy, x/y using our straightedge and compass < 1270351205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you do xy and x/y? < 1270351212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only other thing we can really do is draw a circle and intersect a line with it: analytically this means solving something like x^2+y^2=r^2 against a linear equation -- all in all we can take square roots this way < 1270351353 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270351625 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put x and y at right angles < 1270351806 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you don't sorry < 1270351810 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put x and 1 at right angles < 1270351817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1? < 1270351818 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you draw the hypotenuse, and exend it out (forever) < 1270351825 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a '1' value to multiply things < 1270351839 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you could just use a thumbwidth or something < 1270351841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're responding to my x*y x/y question < 1270351853 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is a triangle with sides, 1:x < 1270351884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you exend the baseline too, until you find a place where the height down is y, and that gives a (similar) triangle with is y:xy < 1270351897 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to divide numbers you can just reverse this procedure < 1270351898 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can construct sqrt(x) toooooo < 1270351972 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so in effect we have a field (have you met this structure from algebra before??) < 1270351993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of fields, don't really know what they are. They define certain operations on them? < 1270352019 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a field is just something which has +,-,*,/ and stuff like (x+y)z = xz+yz < 1270352043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can construct every element of our field with a ruler and compass! < 1270352091 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say our field so far is R, we can adjoin some square roots to get R[sqrt(x)] which is again a field < 1270352171 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously constructing an angle is equivalent to constructing it's cosine. In the case of the angle being 360/n it's equivalent to constructing the n-gon right? < 1270352199 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is only half paying attention, tbh < 1270353038 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270359876 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you pissed fax offfffffff < 1270361234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270361387 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270361443 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found another esolang called ModanShogi it is based on a shogi game movements < 1270361447 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/yhara/ShogiModan < 1270362001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1270362720 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can easily imagine writing a Haskell implementation of BF before ever understanding a nice way to write a Python implementation of BF < 1270362841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, with Haskell, I can use Parsec < 1270362883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is severe overkill for Brainfuck parsing. < 1270363040 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's healthier to figure out how to do without < 1270364291 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you saw my parser in Haskell, did you not? < 1270364292 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. < 1270364306 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, um, part of it < 1270364312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I saw the full thing < 1270364328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at any rate, I want to process everything into BFCmds before processing < 1270364333 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nobody expects the big monster with three tentacles on the same ship either, unless *I* say so. < 1270364360 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: um < 1270364366 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24645#a24645 < 1270364367 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you dumb < 1270364390 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270364414 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION obviously shouldn't have said processing in both places, if that's what you mean < 1270364469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I think BFComment can be useful. Say I also want to write a simple optimizer < 1270364479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't need to interpret to do that < 1270364486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can leave comments in place < 1270364509 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I hope one day you learn python and haskell and maybe even scheme < 1270364528 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[and brainfuck for that matter] < 1270364531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows Python fairly well < 1270364743 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, are you going to explain yourself? < 1270364867 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270364882 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a good friend was here, I'd have him explain < 1270364959 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270364962 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohai < 1270364999 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard someone was being stupid and wanted to use monadic parsing for brainfuck. < 1270365015 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who gets to wear the dummy hat? < 1270365036 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to see proof that dixon /= Quadrescence  < 1270365049 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWWW Sgeo GETS TO WEAR THE DUMMY HAT! < 1270365062 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, first you should /msg nickserv info dixon all < 1270365084 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And see that I've been registered years before Quadrescence with an entirely different account. < 1270365145 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should stop using monadic parsing, which I'm guessing at least 100 people in this channel told you was a bad idea. < 1270365202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overkill == bad idea? < 1270365246 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always. < 1270365258 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be like driving your children to school in a tank. < 1270365268 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When all you really wanted was side-impact airbags. < 1270365318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think 42 is really the proper answer to life, the universe, and everything, or do you think not? < 1270365336 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i think ur homosexual < 1270365422 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Why do you think that, please? < 1270365450 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: evidence suggests so < 1270365489 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you please explain what evidence and how you can come to that conclusion from the given evidence, I would like to know how < 1270365521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing was gay, we in this channel talk about stuff that Turing did a lot, therefore we are all gay. < 1270365535 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's a dumb way. < 1270365551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it was true of Turing but it doesn't make that of everyone < 1270365553 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you mind if I finish these sun chips and mtn dew < 1270365564 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no kidding? < 1270365571 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I really don't care. They aren't mine < 1270365574 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: He integrated you over a finite portion of a hypergeometric function and realized you swung the wrong way. < 1270365587 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx dixon < 1270365591 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1270365593 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually asexual < 1270365593 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(=p) < 1270365601 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(virgin) < 1270365684 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh and i have some sixlets to eat too < 1270365708 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some twins to eat later. I'm waiting for them to arrive :3 < 1270365722 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270365744 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that sexual innuendo < 1270365746 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eat" < 1270365767 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270365790 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1270365811 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When? < 1270365848 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In case you didn't know, I was asking "Why?" to Quadrescence's) < 1270365889 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh I guess I am hungwy < 1270365912 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean "hungry" or "hungwy"? < 1270365942 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter < 1270365972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should really be sleeping < 1270366002 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or using Python. < 1270366058 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have never heard of such a word as "hungwy" and I don't know what it means < 1270366115 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's etymologically related to "twat." I would ask if you were familiar, but it seems you've already implied not. < 1270366671 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any idea of making spell in D&D game? < 1270366843 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have ideas to make spell to swap the text contents of two books or scrolls, and also to make the caster's hand fall off, and so on < 1270367164 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real country of freedom is "Pull down to select" < 1270367389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270367436 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when Sevil arrives on the ship, if there is not a big monster with three tentacles arriving on the same ship, something has gone wrong and you have to figure out what's wrong. < 1270367439 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1270367999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270368000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270368089 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270368908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was thinking about how to get the optimizer working, and it helped me figure out a bit of the parsing < 1270369145 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was thinking about how to get Sgeo's brain working, and it helped me figure out that he's probably just hopeless :\ < 1270369497 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wuv you Sgeo, I do, I'd just wish you'd listen to the four people telling you that you're strangling kittens with oil pipeline. < 1270369509 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not using Parsec < 1270369515 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You promise? < 1270369520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270369536 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would give you a hug, but I have a tendency to cop a feel. < 1270369562 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _am_ using a data BFCmd that means I can't just write parseBFChar '+' = BFInc etc < 1270369663 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could always try python-llvm, for the lulz. < 1270369702 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be sleeping < 1270369711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep will probably let me think better when I awake < 1270369716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 3:26AM here < 1270369723 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:30 here. < 1270369754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1270369772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you're rounding, or there's a mysterious 3min difference < 1270369787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, *looks at timestamp* 4min < 1270369792 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between 3-4 < 1270369825 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm using NTP, so I hope it's not wrong. < 1270370065 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1270370073 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nini < 1270371511 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270372568 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270373966 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270374630 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270374871 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270376619 0 :olsner_!~salparot@81-233-241-210-no50.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270376766 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-254.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270377098 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1270378073 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270381644 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270382451 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1270384342 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270384700 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-214-99.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270386404 0 :olsner_!~salparot@81-233-241-210-no50.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270386879 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270390631 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1270391416 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270392194 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270395002 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270397624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270398227 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-254.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270398481 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270399150 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-216-79.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270399575 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270399676 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-142-139.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1270400061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to write a separate tape manipulation module < 1270400124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does something more interesting than implement brainfuck < 1270400336 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION comments < 1270400394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he's over-engineering < 1270400481 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270401801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that sort of "always" falling tone called now again? < 1270401805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not always falling < 1270401807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just sounds like it < 1270401827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was one in Mario64, if you went up the final stairs before collecting enough stars < 1270401846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember hearing some name for that sort of sound once < 1270401933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you happen to know? I think I remember you were involved in a discussion about them here ages ago? < 1270402278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember a discussion about them, but not any specific name. I think the tones themselves were mentioned on some "auditory illusions" page. < 1270402410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's sometimes called Shepard’s paradox, though that name seems to be a bit ambiguous. < 1270402416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.moillusions.com/2006/05/audio-optical-illusions.html < 1270402446 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Audio optical illusions" < 1270402449 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupidest phrase EVER < 1270402457 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh < 1270402473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone seems to call them that. :p < 1270402497 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://angrydylan.blogspot.com/2007/11/shepards-paradox.html is another bit, and you can obviously google more. < 1270402547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone is also related. < 1270402552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phew, maybe that was enough linkery. < 1270402672 0 :olsner_!~salparot@81-233-241-210-no50.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270402781 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lot less of a trick than I originally assumed it might be :P < 1270402842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no! need more links! < 1270402845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick! < 1270402847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270402985 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.www.com.com < 1270403009 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if someone owns that < 1270403031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.com.com seems to redirect to cnet < 1270403040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably they own www.www.com.com too < 1270403041 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1270403042 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a subdomain of com.com, which belongs to cnet < 1270403050 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit < 1270403051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it isn't in dns < 1270403114 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://org.org/ --- wth is this place? < 1270403179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone's random photos is what it looks like. < 1270403191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not call it audio illusions instead? < 1270403201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there is no good reason to include the word optical there < 1270403217 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, with such n awesome name < 1270403229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike if you were to use the Swedish word for optical illusions: "synvillor" where "syn" refers to "sight" < 1270403247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling it "ljudsynvillor" would be quite reasonable then < 1270403276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because "villor" alone means nothing related to illusions. It means "villas". Go figure) < 1270403292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ljudvillor would be interpretable too < 1270403303 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was gonna ask < 1270403370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if his decision to make moveRight :: Tape a -> Maybe (Tape a) will just confuse him beyond all home < 1270403373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hope < 1270403471 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BF in Haskell? I have but one question: why? < 1270403684 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what's the meaning < 1270403712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why maybe? < 1270403723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, won't moving right always be possible? < 1270403736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while moving left might hit the start < 1270403741 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's a wrap < 1270403757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, then it will always be possible in both directions < 1270403780 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's how i'd do it < 1270403810 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I want there to be several kinds of tape < 1270403823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to make tape unbounded at both ends, or bounded at both ends < 1270403860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, nah I would do infinite tape upwards, but finite downwards < 1270403864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tape a = Tape [a] a [a] < 1270403865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270403872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus forming an analogy to N < 1270403879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the head of each list being the element closest to the head < 1270403883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while infinite in both directions would be an analogy to Z < 1270403885 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, tape head < 1270403891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uphill both ways < 1270403906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your tape hiato would be an analogy to N modulo x < 1270403942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what a tape analogous to Q or R would be < 1270403943 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1270403956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what a finite, non-wrapping one would be < 1270403960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a finite set I guess < 1270403965 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270403966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without modulo < 1270403981 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would I make a tape that wraps? let the_list = [0,0,0,0,0] in Tape (reverse the_list) 0 the_liist? < 1270404001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't.. think so < 1270404003 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's impossible < 1270404004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I want an uncountably infinite bf tape :( < 1270404012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270404015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what is? < 1270404022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrapping around in a tape? no < 1270404029 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I donno, I just find it easier to give a generous length, then rotate tape as needed, always working on the first element < 1270404034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just take the current position modulo the length of the day < 1270404039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/day/tape/ < 1270404041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird typo < 1270404048 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270404055 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR do rotatinos < 1270404062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotatinos? < 1270404078 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotations < 1270404081 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270404090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, using a linked list? < 1270404091 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail a ++ [head a] < 1270404104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes it makes sense to use a circular linked list < 1270404135 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1270404147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, if the language is single assignment that would be rather inefficient < 1270404157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming cons style lists that is < 1270404168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, why not? < 1270404174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a double linked circular list < 1270404179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving left or right is trivial < 1270404186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just follow the pointer in the relevant direction < 1270404191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that requires a low level language < 1270404203 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are going to use mutable variables then you should make the values mutable rather than the cons < 1270404216 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, true, but that's the concpt, and if mage lazy it doesn't really matter - all operationse on the first etement only < 1270404229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, "mage lazy"? < 1270404234 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270404243 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1270404250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what the heck was "mage" a typo for... < 1270404252 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New keyboard layout < 1270404265 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made? < 1270404268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270404272 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, made < 1270404277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, dvorsak? < 1270404284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err modulo spelling < 1270404291 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naah, my own < 1270404297 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was on colemak < 1270404312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm perfectly happy with qwerty < 1270404324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't type that much, I code. Meaning I think more than I type < 1270404337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(becuase I don't use asm) < 1270404337 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right < 1270404349 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naah, just an experiment < 1270404360 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I do :P) < 1270404371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay I use inline asm in C sometimes... < 1270404398 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're just afraid of it's power < 1270404410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1270404416 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270404416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer high level languages < 1270404429 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like extremes < 1270404468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because what needs 200 lines of C needs maybe 20 lines of erlang. (well usually not quite as dramatic ratio, but when the stuff is heavy on memory handling it might be) < 1270404510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many lines of C would it take you to write a program that recurse through a set of directories given on the command line, finding duplicate files < 1270404518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should avoid reading files if possible < 1270404524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by checking the size of the files < 1270404537 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, well, if people talk efficiency and anything other than ASM, they're just making up useless -etrics < 1270404547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, har. < 1270404552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, 10000's < 1270404554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, efficient in programmer time < 1270404571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not 10000s < 1270404579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe 1000 lines at most < 1270404585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some 900 more likely < 1270404593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in erlang it took me, what, *checks* < 1270404618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :232 lines, including comments and blanks < 1270404631 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 10000's because I know no C libraries and would prob implument another language and link to bash or something < 1270404635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total < 1270404635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- < 1270404635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang 1 119 81 40.5% 32 232 < 1270404645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to ohcount < 1270404646 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1270404664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does it in three steps < 1270404678 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah? < 1270404699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: recurse and read file info, store in a dict the size as key, and append the filename to the value < 1270404708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all files with the same size is in the same key < 1270404744 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever start < 1270404796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2/3: (2) for each such key it goes through and calculate the hash of each file, stores a 2-tuple {size,md5sum} with filenames (3) for each such key, now it finally checks that they are the same, and we don't have a theoretical hash collision < 1270404805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2/3 are done interleaved to make use of disk cache < 1270404812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, it won't need to read the files in again < 1270404828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2 is done to not have to load as much file data into memory at once < 1270404836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I need to run this on fairly large files < 1270404842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say 200-300 MB each at most < 1270404867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot often the files will be much smaller < 1270404910 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, but as you probably considered, tle size comparison isn't really necessary, in fact, i'm sure any decent hash takes it into account anyway < 1270404929 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, still clever < 1270404947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the size is to reduce having to read the files from disk < 1270404955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are no two files of the same size < 1270404960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have to read those at all < 1270404970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since getting the size is way faster than reading the file < 1270404979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it maps to a simple stat() or such at some level < 1270404981 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Heh < 1270404997 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, cant fault you then < 1270404998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I ran this on the linux source tree with a compiled kernel in it < 1270405010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was way faster than a naive bash script that I used before < 1270405027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, 30 seconds vs. 7 minutes < 1270405034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both on cold cache < 1270405042 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? I thought pipes and such are lazy < 1270405047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270405050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about < 1270405051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1270405077 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a | grep b && c < 1270405087 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather < 1270405106 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1270405119 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I'm slow with kbd < 1270405131 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please hold < 1270405170 0 :iamtheobject!~objectcon@173.160.75.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270405175 0 :iamtheobject!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-.- < 1270405228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270405242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, they just work concurrentlyu < 1270405245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concurrently* < 1270405247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not lazily < 1270405285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw wth is up with the topic? You set it last it looks like < 1270405317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't like it? :P < 1270405399 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An efficient implementation in *sh would take into account that pipes as data flow are lazy, more specifically, if used as a source, it will only feed as much as is requested, so you could easily implement a naieve list and glob for files based on hashes andpipes that feed data only to the point that the conditional request fails < 1270405444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, no that is incorrect < 1270405452 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1270405462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pipes are just concurrent, not lazy < 1270405468 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit < 1270405470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel has a buffer < 1270405478 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i did all that typing < 1270405479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and writes block if that buffer is full < 1270405549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theoretically I could optimise my implementation by doing the md5 calculation while data is being read in < 1270405555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be too hard in erlang < 1270405569 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.27 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270405574 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wouldn't know < 1270405576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1270405586 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yo < 1270405615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ehirdiphone < 1270405621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you on the iPhone? < 1270405624 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: phone? < 1270405627 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1270405639 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh reasons. Not important. Hello! < 1270405662 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm overengineering my BF interpreter < 1270405674 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen the cw input interface for the iPhone? < 1270405684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB < 1270405699 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: ? < 1270405702 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1270405724 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morse Code iput, er, iDitDah or somesuch < 1270405730 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1270405734 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird god dammit < 1270405806 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: http://kb1ooo.com/iditdahtext/iDitDahText.html < 1270405851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You are *probably* overengineering it. < 1270405852 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What?! < 1270405880 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wanting to talk to you for ages < 1270405917 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: At most you had to wait two days. < 1270405944 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /do/ have to pick things up from the old house. < 1270405946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone you and fax have been missing each other with like 5 minutes for *days* < 1270405953 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Ha < 1270405964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, have things improved btw? < 1270405970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Aha :-D < 1270405984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Dude, some people have real lives. Granted, ehird is normally an exception. Still. :P < 1270405990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, :D < 1270406072 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais formulated me getting a girlfriend as the most ludicrous explanation for the unit absence possible. Nuff said :P < 1270406090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nuff said?? < 1270406110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well gf's are extremely easy to get < 1270406117 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enough. Except more nuff-y. < 1270406136 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Answered in MSG < 1270406137 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh she didn't get the nuff < 1270406142 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msg < 1270406160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1270406162 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wnat the fucking hell is going on < 1270406167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was watching that video hiato linked < 1270406176 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Whaddya mean? < 1270406195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "pareto optimal" in common usage? < 1270406201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you all know what it means? < 1270406230 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270406281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's enough of an answer for me < 1270406325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::C < 1270406356 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Be more precise and if you want to talk do. < 1270406424 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone do you know who I am ?? < 1270406425 0 :ehirdiphone_!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.25 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270406426 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270406428 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehirdiphone < 1270406534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I was under the impression you wanted to talk :P < 1270406558 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270406581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nuffy.net/pics/funny/toilate/toilete_signs_08.jpg Little did they know that ZW birds are female :P < 1270407010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is "pareto optimal" in common usage? <-- what *does* it mean < 1270407049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fax: Be more precise and if you want to talk do. < 1270407049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehirdiphone do you know who I am ?? < 1270407050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehirdiphone_ (~ehirdipho@82.132.248.25) has joined #esoteric < 1270407050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehirdiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection) < 1270407050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehirdiphone_ is now known as ehirdiphone < 1270407050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fax: I was under the impression you wanted to talk :P < 1270407052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hi < 1270407055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, in case you missed some of that < 1270407092 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What do you mean, do you know who I am? < 1270407094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.nuffy.net/pics/funny/toilate/toilete_signs_08.jpg Little did they know that ZW birds are female :P <-- ZZ? ZW? < 1270407151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm your father ehirdiphone. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! < 1270407152 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh at there being no Integer -> Char < 1270407156 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XX is female, ZW is female, so in fact these bathroom signs are indicating that male birds (and some insects, etc) use the same restroom as female mammals (e.g. humans :P ), and female birds (etc) use the same restroom as male mammals (e.g. humans) < 1270407166 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Int < 1270407174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, har < 1270407176 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ fromInteger < 1270407184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, "restrooms"? < 1270407185 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toEnum ? < 1270407197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... yes? < 1270407198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, do you mean toilets? < 1270407199 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hawt :P < 1270407210 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just have the tape be Tape Char < 1270407217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what is the circle and the triangle symbols? < 1270407219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are* < 1270407220 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In the US, that's just about the only word we don't use to refer to the room :P < 1270407227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, heh < 1270407228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that complicates + and - slightly < 1270407230 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That I can't answer ... < 1270407234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not really, I guess < 1270407237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1270407251 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: succ. pred < 1270407259 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Char will do fine. < 1270407304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why call it restrooms? < 1270407310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, also what about "loo"? < 1270407320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"water closet: a toilet in Britain < 1270407320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn" < 1270407323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I guess not < 1270407323 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a word with no meaning whatsoever here. < 1270407340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Loo" is just fine. Don't think many people *use* it, but I'm pretty sure most people would understand it just fine. < 1270407353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently Gregor didn't < 1270407356 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU TRAITOR COMMY < 1270407358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would use toilet? < 1270407360 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*COMMIE < 1270407361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hah. < 1270407363 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crapper < 1270407370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Uh, the toilet's in the bathroom..." < 1270407377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1270407380 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody says water closet < 1270407381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: "Uh, the toilet's in the bathroom..." < 1270407384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to call them anything, just say you're gonna take a shit < 1270407389 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WC, /maybe/. < 1270407433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i intend to leak fecal matter out of my ass, where should i do this" < 1270407434 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, OK, so most people would know what "loo" means. < 1270407447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, here in Sweden toalett can be both the room, or the equipment. When referred to as the room it is a room which contains only the equipment and handfat (English word slipped my mind, you was your hands there) < 1270407453 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it would be like this "loo" -> "funny British word for bathroom" -> "bathroom" < 1270407458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "loo" -> "bathroom" < 1270407460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't be used for a room that contained a bathtub or such as well < 1270407468 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas WC would just have people scratching their heads. < 1270407487 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "handfat" is officially the greatest word ever. < 1270407489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WC is common on signs for toilets around here < 1270407491 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sink? < 1270407494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A room with just a toilet is also a bathroom. ;) < 1270407498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one would *say* it though < 1270407502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah yes < 1270407505 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1270407508 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1270407511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is not! < 1270407514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe in English < 1270407517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"restroom" and "bathroom" are used interchangeably here. < 1270407519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In floor plans, it's termed a "quarter bath". In spite of having 0 baths. < 1270407521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in English, in American vernacular. < 1270407530 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always thought that abba song was about toilets when I was really young < 1270407535 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WATERLOO! < 1270407542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well no one would say "water closet" in the same way as no one says "dihydrogen monoxide" < 1270407559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I actually heard people using it, but just as a joke < 1270407571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hehe < 1270407596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh now I feel I have that tune on my head < 1270407661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, that "water closet: a toilet in Britain" was from define:loo btw < 1270408621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flood < 1270408623 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270408628 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upfpdgkglc fyoddv fypf cups tx hung ufgo < 1270408655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, flood? < 1270408673 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Izi USB jai ow zkqodj wkdhf euwixb jdb jd dk ne fdisk zlqpxh < 1270408684 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270408684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes elsewhere < 1270408722 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ozowkd abxoxbs fowoxjwj x dj jz. I icori h dj oso odj jebwkxodocidisbbaixieisoso kj jwoxppskjajco ackvpgirurvx iwospwiiqbzbc woxpfkf. < 1270408757 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270408790 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270408843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-00:01/10:33, and I'm near the end of this file < 1270408846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says vlc < 1270408847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :near the end < 1270408862 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:33 < AnMaster> was watching that video hiato linked <------ er? < 1270408866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny the way it continues to count < 1270408870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-00:-02 < 1270408883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay now it is worse < 1270408889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:08/01:03 < 1270408906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the link you linked < 1270408917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had a video demoing the thing on it < 1270408931 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooooooh. Heh < 1270408974 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, at least vlc can count, dont get me started about mpd and streams < 1270409188 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270409199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh? < 1270409211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270409286 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just gives seemingly random numbers. Fair enough, it cant be expected to track position in a stream, but it gives me things like 99:01:01:01 < 1270409303 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270409305 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, what is that? The radio station is older < 1270409324 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've been listening for maybe ten minutes < 1270409325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, possibly in the current segment? < 1270409332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of something < 1270409358 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, exactly < 1270409433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, or 99 indicates a stream < 1270409445 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :se posible < 1270409450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :se? < 1270409462 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, IIRC < 1270409470 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :French < 1270409475 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non? < 1270409476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99:01:01:01 <-- is 99 in hundreds of hours? < 1270409478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1270409485 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea < 1270409493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well what is the last unit in? < 1270409499 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me connct now and show you < 1270409501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seconds? centiseconds? < 1270409557 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfftt.... no idea < 1270409571 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:17:47 is the one pice of info < 1270409584 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is my corroct listen time < 1270409587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a 3 line, 14 column lcd here < 1270409598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I make it possible to get a console on it? < 1270409601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or try to at least < 1270409607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would need a user space daemon for it < 1270409608 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTW\ < 1270409616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I need to program it with libusb < 1270409619 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't se written c'est < 1270409622 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\//! < 1270409628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can only display a limited charset btw < 1270409659 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wouldn't know, never took french < 1270409668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1270409684 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("isn't ic written i see") < 1270409693 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270409760 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270409839 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 20:30 < AnMaster> since I need to program it with libusb ---> what about a parallel port? Significantly easier < 1270409842 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270409874 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad stepped on the switch for the power thing that powers the cable modem < 1270409893 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what is a "mandelstam"? < 1270409903 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270409928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a verb. "to mandelstam" < 1270409949 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, and it's meaning is? < 1270409954 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270409965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well ... it's a mandelly kind of ... stamming. < 1270409966 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1270410084 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? Wouldn't have guessed that, sneaky and deceptive. So it's like like a not so frabtious way of presbiedling < 1270410112 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-like < 1270410474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my bftape.hs is good enough < 1270410490 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270410531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24660#a24660 < 1270410639 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: any particular reason for moveby? < 1270410652 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270410665 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main program stores BF commands as, e.g., BFMove 5 < 1270410675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of just BFRight < 1270410677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1270410689 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok < 1270410800 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the modifyTapeHead < 1270410818 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice thinking < 1270410829 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1270411044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it can take a while to figure out how to write a line of Haskell, but reading it is easy < 1270411053 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[in general] < 1270411089 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's generally important to be able to read code later, more so than writing it now.. < 1270411126 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270411147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there? < 1270411155 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1270411160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have a little request for your musical skills < 1270411164 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1270411167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, something I think might be interesting < 1270411194 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on < 1270411197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the result of merging the internationale and some of Chopin's music < 1270411204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what it would sound like < 1270411212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sounds interesting < 1270411218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I lack the skill to do it myself < 1270411279 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guhhh uhh? < 1270411287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, eh? < 1270411329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, is that a good or bad sign? < 1270411346 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't yet know :P < 1270411355 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I do believe this is probably beyond my skills. < 1270411382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah :/ < 1270411389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you have anything more specific than "Chopin's music"? < 1270411419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, some suitable music by him. I'm not quite enough expert on him to be able to name a specific piece < 1270411426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but iirc you liked him a lot < 1270411443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assumed you would be able to pick a suitable, slow piece that is typical Chopin < 1270411456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "Any Chopin Nocturne #whatever" :P < 1270411475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well yes sounds good. < 1270411486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pick the number you want < 1270411524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you see, I and some other people were discussing this in another channel (on another network). < 1270411555 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine the fact that you've ever heard The Internationale before and I have not has a lot to do with our respective positions on Earth :P < 1270411632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, eh? < 1270411644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you haven't heard the Internationale?! < 1270411649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have now. < 1270411658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming that "ever" was a typo for "n&" < 1270411660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1270411674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I have before, but dismissed it as "extraordinarily generic anthem-sounding music" < 1270411683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well so it is! < 1270411688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, kind of < 1270411707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it is just that it is about as far as you can get from a Chopin nocturne < 1270411714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why we were discussing merging them < 1270411720 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see :P < 1270411749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have no idea if it is possible, and if it is, if the result is interesting < 1270411751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I assume you were referring to merging not so much in creating a piece of music which is a stylistic merge, but actually mixing recordings of both into some horrible mutant. < 1270411771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but considered that I once heard a boogie-woogie waltz... < 1270411777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider it *impossible* < 1270411822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm good at mixing X and deathcore for any value of X, if anyone's interested < 1270411830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270411846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, to what ratio? < 1270411871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to any X/deathcore ratio less than or equal to 0.5, i suspect < 1270411908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was actually mostly a joke, deathcore isn't what i usually write (although it is what i usually listen to). < 1270411916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFO0SXf4mw4 (lyrics in Swedish btw, but the music itself should be interesting, the boogie-woogie waltz) < 1270411958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the composer and perfomer is the famous (in Sweden) comedian Povel Ramel < 1270411964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :performer* < 1270412126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's some serious liquid insanity < 1270412256 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270412256 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270412256 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270412345 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: set X = 0 < 1270412363 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write me some nothing music < 1270412392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i mix deathcore and nothing, won't the result be just deathcore < 1270412452 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also people generally manage to name the genre of any of my music, except those who hear an electric guitar and say metal or rock < 1270412457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't < 1270412458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270412465 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmm right < 1270412470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god i'm getting tired of inequalities < 1270412483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = -deathcore < 1270412508 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't what? < 1270412527 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = -deathcore + i :| < 1270412533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a don't somewhere in there < 1270412540 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X usually denotes a set < 1270412543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they manage not < 1270412552 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or matrix < 1270412560 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something that isn't a variable. < 1270412570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270412597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean in something like let (X, S, m) be a measure space, X is not a variable? < 1270412612 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what do you mean by variable < 1270412619 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A variable varies. < 1270412632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no it doesn't, in math < 1270412637 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does. < 1270412642 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In math. < 1270412643 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270412647 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is news to me < 1270412651 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., y = 3x+6 < 1270412655 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a variable is just something you plug in values for < 1270412658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i believe you < 1270412664 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x \in R, thus x can VARY to be any value in R < 1270412672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270412678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in (X, S, m), X can VARY to be any set < 1270412691 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270412727 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not ANY set. < 1270412734 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: That's a stupid definition of change. < 1270412746 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Thanks? < 1270412753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely any set can be made a measure space out of < 1270412761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x \in R has more constraints < 1270412770 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yw < 1270412798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say let x \in R and then prove something about x, you're doing it for any value of x. similary, if you let (X, S, m) be a measure space, and prove something about it, you prove something for any measure space. < 1270412806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference making x a variable and X not one? < 1270412810 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Vitali set, boiiiiii < 1270412846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1270412886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll assume you were joking above < 1270412935 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll assume you're pretending not to know about non-measurable sets. < 1270412969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know about non-measurable sets < 1270412985 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't see how vitali set made any sense < 1270412992 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if making his parser blind to too many [ is a bad idea < 1270413035 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: "meh" < 1270413042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you meant < 1270413046 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, too many ] will probably cause it to ignore everything after the extra [ < 1270413048 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm ] < 1270413048 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad program = undefined behaviour :P < 1270413053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if X is a vitali set, then you can't make a measure space out of it? < 1270413055 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, heh < 1270413056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not true < 1270413064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1270413136 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270413169 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: wrong < 1270413194 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: about what < 1270413196 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad program = doesn't do what it's supposed to < 1270413206 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it does but exceedingly poorly < 1270413216 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: any set X can be made into a measure space by setting S = {{}, X} and m(a) = 0 for all a \in S < 1270413218 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This parser is getting uglier by the second :/ < 1270413222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a vitali set < 1270413226 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I meant < 1270413227 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if a measurable space has a lebesgue measure, and the Vitali set isn't lebesgue measurable < 1270413235 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feed nonprogram to interpreter < 1270413238 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> UB < 1270413245 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1270413252 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you're off the hook < 1270413263 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's wonderful, but is that making a measure space of the Vitali set itself, or a different set containing the vitali set as a subset? < 1270413265 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE HOOK < 1270413289 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Use parsec :P < 1270413297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's making a measure space of the vitali set, X = vitali set. i assumed the vitali set was an example of something X can't be < 1270413299 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, is that a joke? < 1270413304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you said X can't be *absolutely any set* < 1270413304 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After several people told me NOT to? < 1270413305 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no < 1270413313 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're fucking idiots < 1270413321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and said this is because "vitali set boiiiiii" < 1270413324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Brainfuck parsing. < 1270413325 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were they in #haskell? < 1270413331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not disregard them < 1270413336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can even make R^n into a measure space such that all vitali sets are measurable < 1270413342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll leave this as homework < 1270413343 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is a two liner in parsec < 1270413352 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, pikhq and Quadrescence and dixon < 1270413358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 4 lines out of it. :P < 1270413370 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, um, this is much much more than 4 lines < 1270413387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: dixon is a moron and pikhq should be ashamed :P < 1270413398 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Quadrescence is a fluffy bunny. < 1270413406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thusly he can do no wrong. < 1270413412 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is excused. < 1270413427 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about this: I do it both ways < 1270413439 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMI < 1270413450 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1270413467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's some serious liquid insanity <-- what is? < 1270413468 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: dixon is certainly not a moron < 1270413501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: can you explain his statement about X vs x? < 1270413525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope there's a better argument out there than vitali set boiiiii < 1270413536 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is better: A language that's easy to write in but difficult to read, or a language that's easy to read in but difficult to write? < 1270413540 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boiiiii < 1270413549 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: neither < 1270413554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: One that's difficult to both! < 1270413562 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't really remember what the argument was < 1270413581 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that it seems that Haskell tends to be a bit of the latter, imo < 1270413591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: then nm < 1270413607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or read logs, it's not a very interesting argument < 1270413614 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Only because it is new to you. < 1270413626 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can reiterate the question/whatever so we are all on the same page < 1270413638 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Avoid stating informed opinions until you're informed :P < 1270413663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the claim was that X usually denotes matrices or sets and is therefore not a variable, unlike x which denotes things like real numbers < 1270413680 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270413686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that in x \in R, x can *vary*, whereas if you say (X, S, m) is a measure space, X can't vary < 1270413698 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: do you agree with what he just said (that this was the claim, be it true or false) < 1270413711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how there's any distinction between those < 1270413715 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I said X can't assume all values. < 1270413728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well X \in Set, of course < 1270413733 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., a non-measurable set < 1270413747 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming lebesgue measure < 1270413752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that statement i just find plain weird < 1270413763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why couldn't you make a non-measurable set into a measure space < 1270413764 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: X \in Set or MeasurableSet < 1270413768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set < 1270413793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any set made into a measure space as for instance (X, {{}, X}, m), m(a) = 0 for all a < 1270413805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can be < 1270413820 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Notepad++: Please don't attempt to match [ and ] if they're in single quotes < 1270413837 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any negative number can be made nonnegative by adding its inverse. That doesn't make it initially nonegative. < 1270413838 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Sgeo_, learn to use a decent fucking editor < 1270413853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also x \in R, so even if it was MeasurableSet, X would still be a variable in the same sense that we name an arbitrary element of some class < 1270413887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: what? a vitali set is not in any way inherently non-measurable, as i said there are measures on R^n where vitali sets can be measured. < 1270413889 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I don't think X is a variable now < 1270413901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? what's the difference? < 1270413909 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's not Lebesgue measurable! < 1270413916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we say let X \in Set, and we say x \in R < 1270413926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we talk about that one x or X that can't change during the discussion < 1270413927 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said "assuming Lebesgue measure" like 10000000 times < 1270413959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right, the second time i missed that < 1270413961 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did for a second but now I don't. When I think variable, I think: forall X in D, f(X) < 1270413973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a weird assumption because it's not relevant that X can be non-measurable in some measure < 1270413991 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most popular measure :\ < 1270413999 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(among the ladies anyway) < 1270414011 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i thought boob size was the most pop) < 1270414013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still irrelevant if we're talking about whether X can be made into a measure space < 1270414025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously there will be some spaces where X is not a measurable set, for any X except {} < 1270414042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah sure it's the most popular < 1270414055 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Make a measure space of boobies. Get your sigma algebra all over that :3 < 1270414091 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also IIRC you just interchanged "measure space" and "measurable space" a few times < 1270414102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: can you explain why "forall X in D, f(X)", as a definition for variable, makes x a variable in "x \in R", but not X in "X \in Set" < 1270414115 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seriously doubt that, but maybe, let's see < 1270414131 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I can explain if I add more context to the question < 1270414133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1270414167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did talk about non-measurable set, and meant non-lebesque measurable, that might not have been clear from context < 1270414170 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk this discussion is boring let's listen to Sgeo_ talk about stuff < 1270414171 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome, this parser seems to actually be working < 1270414172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure add context < 1270414177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's very boring < 1270414190 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool his parser is working < 1270414214 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if his parser is parsing or if he is confusing lexing with parsing or both < 1270414228 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, kind of. Extra ] causes it to cut off, and it seems to automatically put ] at the end if needed < 1270414240 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you guys think? < 1270414279 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270414281 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not working < 1270414300 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah nvm guys his parser isn't working < 1270414300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact ] is causing him trouble suggests parsing < 1270414343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ate so much pizza i'm all twitchy < 1270414352 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes I agree so I suppose he is talking about parsing and not lexing < 1270414358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that healthy / even possible? < 1270414363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's caffeine kicking in < 1270414367 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that is not healthy and it is not possible < 1270414379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1270414411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: but what do you think, is he using a separate module for the parser and the interpreter < 1270414444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of caffeine, i should probably make some coffee before i get tired < 1270414446 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because he seems to be the type that would overengineer the dick out of something < 1270414459 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God did that to women < 1270414461 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence men < 1270414482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"out of something", so i think god did it to guys < 1270414491 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the definition of the tape and functions that operate on it in a separate module < 1270414499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :women are more optimal in many ways < 1270414500 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the pizza is slowing you down < 1270414518 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to win our pseudo-argument now >:) < 1270414538 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: so do you really have a stateful tape? or do you have a thing that generates new tapes from old ones < 1270414550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :men are more in the direction of movie-autistic genius in that they suck and own at things more often than women < 1270414551 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new tape from old ones < 1270414566 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24660 < 1270414576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is away from the equilibrium of perfect humanness < 1270414621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: i never considered it a pseudo-argument, although i agree it was a complete waste of everyone's time < 1270414635 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: If we didn't have time to waste, we wouldn't be on IRC < 1270414637 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is so anti-climactic. < 1270414645 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You slave for hours and what do you have to show for it? 44 lines. < 1270414664 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck yeah C \o/ < 1270414664 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  | < 1270414664 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  |\ < 1270414671 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha i love this bot < 1270414679 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't count. < 1270414692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :counted just fine on my screen < 1270414704 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a monospaced font? < 1270414706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The modify lines seem to be below the 44 < 1270414706 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: you probs have that alignment junk I hate < 1270414713 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: DO NOT < 1270414713 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a margin < 1270414717 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i consider non-monospace ugly < 1270414728 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Do you read websites in monospace? < 1270414730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270414735 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haHAHAHahahAHA < 1270414735 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that is terrible < 1270414736 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so weird < 1270414741 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the worst idea i've ever heard < 1270414750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i disable all features on pages, they are just white on black monospace < 1270414756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I helped him set up windows. Everything on his screen is < 1270414760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone made the theme for me < 1270414760 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHahaAHaHahhahaHahahAHa < 1270414761 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jk Sgeo_'s idea of using parsec to parse bf was the worst idea < 1270414761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270414763 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :White on black < 1270414767 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consolas < 1270414771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERY thing < 1270414777 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're so weird. < 1270414780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost everything, some things override it < 1270414782 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO exceptions. It is beautiful. < 1270414791 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: not on the internet < 1270414794 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even made an IE stylesheet for it < 1270414796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are like wtf why is your computer broken < 1270414800 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: oh yes < 1270414801 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is, if you use more than 2 websites on the internet < 1270414803 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ^ < 1270414806 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: That's just because you use Windows. < 1270414821 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's just because? the override? < 1270414836 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ _o/ \o/ _o_ \o_ < 1270414836 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  |           |          |       |       | < 1270414836 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                 /'\          >\        /\      >\      |\ < 1270414850 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who decided to give some of these penises? < 1270414852 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No the broken < 1270414856 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he meant < 1270414858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he used something other than Windows they'd say that because it's not Windows < 1270414861 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm yeah maybe < 1270414885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you see they don't actually say anything because i never take my computer outside and no one even visits me < 1270414891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i meet people but never here < 1270414902 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270414912 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Sure you did. < 1270414927 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You just go to your measure theory class and home to fap to it. < 1270414936 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We now know the truth! < 1270414939 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270414954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :measure theory isn't really what i do, measure spaces are just the only thing i was sure everyone would know < 1270414966 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what is a measure space??? < 1270414978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like let [n, k, d]_q R be a linear code < 1270414979 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270414988 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: What Is A Measure Space? < 1270414995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well where everyone = {dixon} :D < 1270415002 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you asking me? < 1270415010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: i said everyone knows measure spaces < 1270415017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and *someone* decided to take that literally < 1270415048 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you find someone else to assume to be ignorant? < 1270415058 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah fuuuuuuuuk taking "everyone" LITERALLY since there are so many other ways to take it < 1270415063 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o_ < 1270415063 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      | < 1270415063 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      >\ < 1270415082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so broken < 1270415092 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never mean what i say < 1270415099 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bee are bee i hav 2 pee < 1270415103 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: only for xchat users < 1270415118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and other similar clients < 1270415125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made erc format it that way too < 1270415128 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Or because it was the highest level of knowledge you could surmount in order to battle my raging ego. < 1270415149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it uses a static value < 1270415152 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woohoo, I think it's working < 1270415153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a max column < 1270415155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o_ < 1270415155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | < 1270415155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >\ < 1270415156 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  | < 1270415156 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  |\ < 1270415162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I see < 1270415190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That is a fekking bizarre alignment thing. < 1270415210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, lowest < 1270415210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well no. It is supposed to be like xchat. But Quadrescence's nick is one char longer than the max length < 1270415218 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aligned rightwards < 1270415218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this it overflows into the other area < 1270415222 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Uh huh! < 1270415224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's bizarro. < 1270415231 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: See? < 1270415233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the linear code thing was the highest level < 1270415235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270415235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, rightwards is normal < 1270415237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me < 1270415240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat does it too < 1270415243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there it looks like: < 1270415247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume you don't care what they are < 1270415250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*know < 1270415251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's all that does that. < 1270415251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o_ < 1270415252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | < 1270415252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >\ < 1270415252 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  | < 1270415252 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                 /\ < 1270415254 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I lol'd. < 1270415258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see ^ < 1270415266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, when I used irssi it did it too < 1270415268 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24662#a24662 < 1270415272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I set irssi up that way < 1270415273 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to be somewhat working < 1270415281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why do you break your IRC clients? < 1270415285 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another function will combine BFAlters and BFMoves etc. < 1270415287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I find it *WAY* easier to read < 1270415307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1270415307 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes it wasn't so ugly < 1270415323 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Use another language. < 1270415342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, then it wouldn't be a bf parser < 1270415343 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually Sgeo_ just wrote it badly :P < 1270415348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, say, an intercal parser < 1270415361 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, any ideas for improvements? < 1270415364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean the language the parser is written in? < 1270415367 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be in Haskell. < 1270415375 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The language it was written in . < 1270415412 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: don't mention parsing the rest twice. using god forbid a monad would avoid such duplication < 1270415425 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EWW MONADS < 1270415434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :codes are subsets of Q^n, where Q is some set. if we take Q to be the finite field of size q then Q^n is a vector space over Q, and linear codes of type [n, k, d]_q R are just subvector fields of Q^n of dimension k (d and R are minimum distance between two codewords and max distance between a non-codeword and the code) < 1270415435 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep your sick functors away from my categories < 1270415453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not very deep < 1270415466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have to define what you mention) < 1270415466 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor? < 1270415469 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hardly know her! < 1270415472 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not sure how he'd use a monad to help here < 1270415478 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: igi < 1270415486 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Just use parsec < 1270415492 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew. < 1270415495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Easy. < 1270415509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew at parsec or linear codes? < 1270415515 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsec. < 1270415520 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linear codes are fine. < 1270415534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like coding theory (the theory of uniform length codes) then linear codes are very useful < 1270415551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah cool < 1270415558 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like cryptography, so some information theoretic properties of coding and error correction come into platy. < 1270415559 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play* < 1270415581 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll also do it in Parsec < 1270415586 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both ways will be available < 1270415587 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: how about whenever anyone mentions haskell you take a big gulp of shut the fuck up- in place of the current pipe the fuck up < 1270415601 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: now /that/ is pointless < 1270415604 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Or I could not. That works better for me. < 1270415612 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: was that a joke < 1270415617 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pointless" < 1270415629 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, the non-Parsec way teaches me stuff, the Parsec way makes it a bit more useful for checking stuff < 1270415631 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because haskell can be written in pointless/POINT-FREE style < 1270415631 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: no, im not /that/ inanw yet < 1270415635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*inane < 1270415655 0 :tombom!~tombom@86.29.71.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270415660 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1270415660 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270415671 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270415672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know very little cryptography < 1270415681 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Yeah but you're the most irritating person here except me < 1270415703 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I'm also the second-coolest person here. < 1270415703 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an age exemption; are you royalty? < 1270415709 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll have to live with the paradox. < 1270415727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i the coolest?!?!? < 1270415738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a i am i ami amiai maimaimaiamiamiamai < 1270415745 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i am in awe of your cool < 1270415753 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Peanut is the coolest. < 1270415753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AM I COOLEST I WUN BE COOLAST :<< < 1270415758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270415773 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm peanutacus < 1270415775 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/cTSP2.jpg < 1270415787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you don't have an age exception for long. < 1270415790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*won't < 1270415796 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen of her domain. < 1270415800 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: orly, how about 18 < 1270415803 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how this parser handles lazy lists < 1270415810 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that was poorly phrased < 1270415815 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was < 1270415818 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be embarrassed < 1270415819 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex in USA = unirritatibg < 1270415819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exemption < 1270415823 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may be better < 1270415826 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unirritatibg < 1270415834 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unirritatibg < 1270415864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My spellchecker has now learned unirritatibg. < 1270415865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know which country you are now, although i have my guesses, but i consider 15 enough for everyone. < 1270415869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything < 1270415870 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No joke < 1270415881 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to handle strings with _|_ in the middle nicely < 1270415887 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: BAH < 1270415891 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The Swedish have a saying: If it's not in diapers, it's old enough to be stretched. < 1270415894 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i wonder why < 1270415908 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: yeah but they're perverts < 1270415915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm no pervert < 1270415918 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Neutral perverts. < 1270415922 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom: 'cuz oklopol just turned 15 < 1270415935 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270415939 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was what i was thinking < 1270415944 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270415951 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: the swiss are more neutral and THEY DEFEND CATHOLICISM < 1270415955 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or because his boyfriend just turned 15 < 1270415961 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270415963 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he's CATHOLIC < 1270415968 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well they share a name with the pope's guards < 1270415973 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purity brick < 1270415977 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SAME THING; BOOYAH < 1270415977 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA < 1270415989 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure, haskell < 1270415992 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all makes sense now < 1270416004 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway oklopol is like 52 now < 1270416016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION calculates again < 1270416018 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense < 1270416023 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pedopedo < 1270416033 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hitting on my young self. < 1270416035 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;))) < 1270416036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i do find 15-yo girls sexy like any normal male < 1270416039 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: how old are you if you can disclose < 1270416042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not pedo < 1270416047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm 21 < 1270416048 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: 21 iirc < 1270416053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just turned < 1270416056 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i c < 1270416060 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Like you are a vampire < 1270416061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had this big party < 1270416064 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just turned" < 1270416076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))))))))))))))) < 1270416081 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol's bf is me he's saving my penile virginity for 15 < 1270416082 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: how old are you if you can disclose < 1270416083 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait i forgot fangs < 1270416087 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru story < 1270416108 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: 3 < 1270416119 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: next time just don't answer or say you don't want to < 1270416129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would tell you but it may have changed since i last heard it < 1270416140 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Hasn't < 1270416141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate ages, should memorize years of birth instead < 1270416148 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just retina irritate Quadrescence < 1270416153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tryina < 1270416162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh umm then i wish i hadn't said that < 1270416167 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Birthdays. Using coding theory. < 1270416170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have two numbers for your age < 1270416175 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 or 154 < 1270416177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*15 < 1270416191 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has iPhone in his name, obv 14. < 1270416195 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :birthday PARADOX mathematics is WRONG < 1270416207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what paradox? < 1270416208 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because YOU ARE EDUCATED EVIL < 1270416210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: your accuracy is physically painful < 1270416214 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time cube < 1270416214 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Birthday paradox < 1270416220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard of that < 1270416232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it about time dilation or something < 1270416241 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270416241 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1270416241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270416245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it redeems me I bought this thing in 2007 when it was still uncool :| < 1270416249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a great memory < 1270416256 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: EARTH HAS SIMULTANEOUS FOUR 25 HOUR DAYS < 1270416262 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU ARE EDUCATED EVIL < 1270416263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: and you waited until it was cool till you started using it? < 1270416263 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1270416266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... much worse < 1270416267 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://timecube.com < 1270416268 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL ELSE ARE EVIL < 1270416272 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No < 1270416274 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270416275 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gene ray 2012 < 1270416285 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100% < 1270416286 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU STUPID BECAUSE OF EDUCATION LIES < 1270416290 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more likely that there are two people in a room of.. I forgot how many .. who share a birthday than you might intuitively think < 1270416298 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 x -1 = -1! < 1270416300 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: 23 < 1270416303 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's the paradox? < 1270416307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would never have guessed < 1270416320 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As much of a paradox as banach-tatami < 1270416324 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tatami < 1270416327 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tarski < 1270416330 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarski? < 1270416331 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At 23 the chance of there being two people who share a birthday is 50% < 1270416337 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1270416338 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget, are larouchites rather dismissive of negative numbers < 1270416348 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then as you get more than 23, that goes up rapidly. < 1270416367 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem for epic win < 1270416368 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: iirc? you mean "if i just looked at wikipedia behind this window a second ago correctly"? < 1270416372 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24 = 100% because of synchronicity < 1270416377 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, I didn't < 1270416380 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1270416382 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jw < 1270416387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: "epic win" oh please < 1270416390 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: No, because It old him from my cryptographic memory of awesome < 1270416396 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes dear? < 1270416396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember 23 from reading some book in like 5th grade < 1270416400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that probability < 1270416407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what it means, but the number in that context < 1270416407 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: I want a divorce < 1270416417 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I keep the house. < 1270416419 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your penis. < 1270416430 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have the kids. < 1270416431 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to read all sorts of crap as akid < 1270416434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a kid < 1270416440 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too. Like Playboy. < 1270416443 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: ok how about an anullment < 1270416463 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: It'd be just like you to not put out and call it quits. < 1270416473 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, i heard that the library you wrote years ago is becoming an official part of the standard library for the D programming language < 1270416484 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did I ever even think you were so much to want to than do anymore like? < 1270416487 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is so cool to meet people who know that much about crypto < 1270416498 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: but that means dixon will be < 1270416501 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERNET < 1270416504 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAMOUS < 1270416512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, it's D < 1270416513 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less Internet-famous than Q. < 1270416528 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: meh it's D, why meh < 1270416529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D is a bad attempt at fixing C++ < 1270416533 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1270416538 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey is more famous than walter bright :p < 1270416559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm less known than all of you put together < 1270416560 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D was a very good attempt, and rather successful in terms of the language itself, but politics and everything around it was not good so etc < 1270416580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, D as a language is pretty bad < 1270416581 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're -1 famous < 1270416601 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not for time cube just become -1 times more famous < 1270416606 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: agreed < 1270416610 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: D as a language is fine. It's just the implementations that suck. < 1270416617 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hodgepodge of features < 1270416618 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't seem to copy from GTK+ applications to any other application < 1270416622 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D as a language is good (pre 2.0) < 1270416627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no D is okay as a language and the politics is okay, but it has a crappy name < 1270416629 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all apropos nothing < 1270416639 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the syntax, while easier to parse than C++'s, is even uglier < 1270416646 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiat, it's working now? < 1270416650 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270416653 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270416656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! for templates, wtf < 1270416659 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: do you think his code is now working? < 1270416660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiat < 1270416665 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no < 1270416668 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No copying < 1270416669 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Fixes issues with <<<<<<<>>>>>>>. < 1270416672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From gtk apps < 1270416676 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it that all-of-a-sudden, copy/paste from XChat is working. It never worked before < 1270416679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon < 1270416681 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the ! is much better than <>, parsing problems or not < 1270416682 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Pidgin) < 1270416683 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dixon: what? < 1270416688 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Instead !(!(!(!()))) < 1270416720 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Much better to parse. < 1270416721 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: note that << is an operator in C++, so is >>, so is <, so is > < 1270416723 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270416729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is ! < 1270416734 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: yes, much better to parse. Also uglier < 1270416738 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer SPECS < 1270416742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! is prefix < 1270416748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: yes < 1270416819 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's a fact that if someone thinks D is uglier than C++, then that someone also think bjarne stroopywoopy's mop head is hotter than raven riley after a shower < 1270416834 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything should just use Haskell's type system :D < 1270416835 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You've inspired me to actually try to learn to /play/ something by Chopin properly :P < 1270416836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A TRUE FACT < 1270416848 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes definitely < 1270416868 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially those things which require values to be a part of types < 1270416880 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, like a type like Matrix(2,3) < 1270416885 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is totes appropriate for this < 1270416889 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up Raven Riley for comparison < 1270416893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's type system is nice but hardly ideal < 1270416905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Nnnno < 1270416934 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_ is just amazed and etc after using haskell for one day and is professing wisdom and whatever he thinks he has obtained < 1270416957 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been using Haskell for more than one day < 1270416965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEEDS MORE LAMBDA < 1270416969 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just haven't written a large project in it before < 1270416973 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: sorry 1 week < 1270416976 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean 1/2 weeks < 1270416985 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one half) < 1270416998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THOU SHALT HAVE BUT ONE CHARACTER IN YOUR MACHINE ALPHABET. LAMBDA. < 1270416998 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about, I started no later than September 26, 2009 < 1270417007 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have made Haskell puns before then < 1270417012 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, one pun) < 1270417014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA, LAMBDA LAMBDA. < 1270417017 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL PUNNNNS < 1270417026 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was not the best pun tbqh < 1270417027 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Oh it seems you've started about 1 day ago < 1270417055 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, execution-wise or concept-wise? < 1270417059 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esp. since just yesterday you said "is it worth learning haskell?!?!?!" < 1270417070 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: erm both :p < 1270417077 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270417090 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1270417226 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Did you know that Haskell curries? < 1270417231 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes < 1270417235 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270417245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that curry is *delicious*? < 1270417248 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there supposed to be a pun based on someone's name in there? < 1270417252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, yes < 1270417276 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howard you figure that out? < 1270417286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy the language is named after, even < 1270417293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell my anus < 1270417294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yeah yeah < 1270417302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell Curry. Hooray. < 1270417317 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whom both Haskell and currying are named < 1270417335 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :schoenfinkeling is the proper term < 1270417369 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.113.230.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270417371 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only an iPhone user would schoenfinkel < 1270417378 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1270417384 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: wat. < 1270417404 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1270417419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should be "Haskelling". < 1270417427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Haskell, every function is haskelled." < 1270417436 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but schoenfinkel invented it! < 1270417449 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-254.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270417453 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: untrue < 1270417456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well. Schoenfinkel should change his name to Haskell. < 1270417464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A,B) -> C < 1270417466 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't currying invented before Haskell? Haskell Curry did Currying stuff, not Haskell stuff < 1270417475 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No duh < 1270417475 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think programmers should stop sullying great mathematicians by naming shitty languages after them. < 1270417489 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry just popularised Schoenfinkeling. < 1270417501 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270417503 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: oh, go away < 1270417513 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: no u < 1270417532 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone knows that things in math and science aren't named after the discoverer, but the researcher < 1270417537 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: our sole resident /actual/ mathematician has his name in the haskell98 report < 1270417547 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/Combinator.pdf < 1270417558 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Much to his embarrassment, I'm sure. < 1270417563 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with dixon < 1270417577 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, who? < 1270417580 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: why not ask oerjan? < 1270417588 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he's not your sole resident mathematician. < 1270417610 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks ais523 counts as a mathematician. < 1270417624 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if that's secretly alise. < 1270417634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: More of a computer scientists. < 1270417653 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is multiple people now? < 1270417654 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a journalist < 1270417659 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, the 2,3 TM work was pretty mathy < 1270417660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Trolltastic. < 1270417665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Hah. < 1270417671 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, I'm serious. < 1270417682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: ... Oerjan == alise wha? < 1270417691 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ais--whatever. < 1270417694 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: ais solved the 2,3 TM problem < 1270417709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 == oerjan wha? < 1270417714 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, only Wolfram cared about the implications < 1270417719 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: == me < 1270417724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1270417733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ... The hell? < 1270417748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose we collectively ignore dixon on the grounds that he is duck-fuckingly annoying < 1270417776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_(The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner) Here's ais523's Wikipedia article. :P < 1270417787 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I asked if ais was alise? < 1270417812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon prolly hates wp too :p < 1270417897 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't hate anyone. < 1270417915 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you hate entities < 1270417921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have nothing against dixon but if everyone else ignores him i'll probably start talking to him here < 1270417927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stop < 1270417945 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the world needs more sheep. Good call. < 1270417964 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok operation Duck Fucking begins, im no longer highlighting dixon at all < 1270417996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with sheeps < 1270418013 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it somewhat humorous, ehirdiphone, that you equate ignoring me to bestiality. < 1270418028 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION Fuchs some Duchs < 1270418031 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No offense to anyone, but no academic institution would really accept this as something: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf < 1270418037 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thx iPhone spell corrector) < 1270418042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't stop talking to someone if everyone else just saw your half of all your conversations? < 1270418051 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: he wasn't exactly trying for that < 1270418054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just talk in pm and spam your half on the channel then < 1270418064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess that's more work < 1270418069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he had his proof wolfram demanded shit he collated it < 1270418076 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada money < 1270418090 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was just playing around to find a proof < 1270418096 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: why? (i haven't read it) < 1270418101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well some of it) < 1270418109 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't ignore people < 1270418111 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: idk becuz i sed so < 1270418115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's not in Computer Modern < 1270418129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Yeah, it's up to Wolfram's standards, not anyone sane's standards. :P < 1270418129 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, I'd keep talking just to annoy the people who were ignoring others. But I'm a bastard. < 1270418163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might too, dunno < 1270418166 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Amuway it's being published in Complex Systems < 1270418179 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly < 1270418185 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wolfram journa < 1270418185 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L < 1270418192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I heard they keep asking him to change it < 1270418202 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Been years now < 1270418208 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolly won't ever get published < 1270418234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it says "I" instead of "we" < 1270418243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore unpublishable < 1270418293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270418304 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has more to do with the Impact headings and whatnot. < 1270418368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just used the default openoffice style iirc :p < 1270418378 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not impact < 1270418423 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Looks like Impact Condensed :\ < 1270418433 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like shit < 1270418444 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(literally, look from a distance) < 1270418472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well of course it looks like shit, it's not monospaced!) < 1270418503 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: You're just looking at the Perl code. < 1270418504 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Yeah so what < 1270418504 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking maths :P < 1270418522 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: oops yeah you're right < 1270418527 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan used latex so mush < 1270418528 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nyah < 1270418533 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math can be beautiful. < 1270418535 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: actually we are talking about some computer science < 1270418535 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270418548 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even more beautiful when typeset properly. < 1270418569 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: oerjan is no CSer you whore < 1270418577 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru < 1270418577 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1270418592 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was kidding anyway since CS is a subset of math < 1270418613 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subfield, it retains its arithmetic and is closed under... I'm kidding. < 1270418618 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1270418622 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also oklopol http://www.file-pasta.com/file/0/funktio_rec.pdf < 1270418647 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed under actual physical COMPUTERS OMG < 1270418672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much prettier < 1270418715 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270418738 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270418778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dream is to become such a great mathematician my papers will be published in journals even though i mandate they be printed in monospace. < 1270418805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually my dream is to ever get anything published anywhere, but anyway < 1270418838 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.46.162 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270418846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :submit it to Annals of Mathematics then Rejecta Mathematica < 1270418851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infallible < 1270418861 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep your Masterpieces in a Personal Journal. < 1270418868 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon++++++++++++++++++++++++ < 1270418876 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: you are zeilberger < 1270418880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: What about if you demand that they be in monospace with *unrendered* TeX? < 1270418881 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, so? < 1270418883 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this explains EVERYTHING < 1270418892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270418907 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1270418908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm fine with math notation < 1270418923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well most of it < 1270418926 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too. < 1270418940 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except pochhammer. < 1270418949 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pochhammer l o l < 1270418956 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it apart from the inconsistent/ambiguous bits < 1270418960 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wwwwait < 1270419115 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's some abuse of notation with matrices and unit vectors too, but nothing too bad. < 1270419157 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x| is crappy but most of the rest is fine < 1270419178 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1 massively ambiguous 2 starter = terminator) < 1270419185 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x| is amazing < 1270419190 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x| is wonderful < 1270419198 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1270419202 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||x|| is slightly annoying < 1270419220 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so much when typeset, but in IRC, etc. < 1270419232 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||x||, for all those negative cardinalities < 1270419246 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270419251 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270419256 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely! < 1270419266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, hi there < 1270419267 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: c-h b c-x o c-s eval c-s etc. automatically translating scheme to human language < 1270419276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: You've inspired me to actually try to learn to /play/ something by Chopin properly :P <-- hahah < 1270419280 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270419291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1270419291 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1270419293 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x is a set and its cardinality is negative, you need || < 1270419294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270419296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||.|| < 1270419303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how rude :P < 1270419311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is? < 1270419316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind :P < 1270419321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will < 1270419334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :innuendo < 1270419335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1270419362 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||.|| looks like very squashed breasts obvs < 1270419378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, goatse? < 1270419380 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone has never seen boobs < 1270419389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have enough imagination < 1270419402 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence has never seen ||.|| shaped breasts, ha! < 1270419407 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crazy man! < 1270419409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor have I < 1270419416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or have you < 1270419420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270419425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coreutils... GNU coreutils... < 1270419427 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you have never seen boobs < 1270419438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never before seen a 782 line "cat" program. < 1270419444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, he knows how to use internet. I doubt he hasn't. < 1270419454 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Stuck in a loop there < 1270419454 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tru < 1270419460 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USE INTERNET < 1270419462 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1270419483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I have! Last time coreutils cat was mentioned in here. < 1270419497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1270419509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW DO YOU MAKE A FREAKING IMPLEMENTATION OF CAT THAT COMPLEX < 1270419522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, tell me < 1270419525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does it do < 1270419526 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IDK ADDING ERROR CHECKING AND OTHER THINGS THAT COULD FUCK UP IN C < 1270419534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are complex creatures. < 1270419544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Hah. < 1270419550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, yes, what with all the quantum state you have to emulate < 1270419553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Significantly more than file concatentation. < 1270419554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: 782 lines? you write really bad C < 1270419556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case someone puts it in a box < 1270419565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have seen more boobs online than irl < 1270419572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does rather a lot of manual buffering, as well. < 1270419572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you could try mmap()ing the file if possible < 1270419576 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: shicking < 1270419577 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope this isn't too much of a shock < 1270419579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should add some 20 lines at least < 1270419579 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking < 1270419583 0 :iamtheobject!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1270419592 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: That's true of anyone. The difference being you have seen boobs IRL. The same cannot be said by ehird. < 1270419596 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: i am v bad at c < 1270419599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, "shicking"? XD < 1270419602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That would be saner than what this is doing. < 1270419612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manual. Buffering. < 1270419612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then what *is* it doing < 1270419617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1270419623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*why* < 1270419627 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat is so well written < 1270419631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Because." < 1270419634 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something called *portable C* < 1270419645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but libc has buffering... < 1270419651 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon and Quadrescence are currently embracing one another discussing their next contrarian move < 1270419655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: And then there's something called "crazy". < 1270419661 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet, really < 1270419671 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, and it happens this is just written in portable, robust C < 1270419676 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're allergic to agreeing with anyone else < 1270419677 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that is apparently foreign to you all < 1270419692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you are joking < 1270419697 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Careful, we may include sardonicism. < 1270419703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also cat is afaik written for posix systems < 1270419710 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I am definitely joking because that would be a funny joke < 1270419727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: The point is that there are no C systems without buffered IO. < 1270419728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah thought so < 1270419748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ds9k? < 1270419754 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: actually, you're wrong < 1270419762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, "almost no". < 1270419768 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Few" < 1270419769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, correction: "no hosted" < 1270419770 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the standard library stuff is *optional* < 1270419771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not any one with libc. < 1270419776 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The guys ate RedHat generally know what they're doing. < 1270419779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, freestanding ones < 1270419780 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-e < 1270419781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Buffered IO is K&R. < 1270419790 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: K&R is not standard < 1270419803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, I don't think that is good for your digestion < 1270419809 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Me either :< < 1270419813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm saying is that "dear God, it's a feature of C that is on any sane system and most insane ones." < 1270419814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, :/ < 1270419846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's all this about maniacs thinking they're going to be using a C system where stdio is unbuffered? < 1270419847 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And it was probably written at least 100 years ago. < 1270419850 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What I'm saying is that it's better to support insane systems to than not at all for a library that is supposed to be portable across systems < 1270419871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, look. And this is using < 1270419884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*read* instead of any buffered IO. < 1270419891 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that if you manage to find a system for which the C library does not have buffered stdio, that will be the LEAST of your problems. < 1270419906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that read is actually less portable than buffered IO. < 1270419907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, Yes it is well known Ada Lovelace wrote the first version of GNU cat! < 1270419909 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that it almost certainly won't have a filesystem, processes, or more than 256 bytes of memory are more significant. < 1270419928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wonderful < 1270419935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is it using write() or? < 1270419945 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A standard is made for a reason < 1270419947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: read() and write(). < 1270419953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1270419963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are common to all POSIX systems, sure, but are not standard C. < 1270419967 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's made to be followed, not made to be seen as a piece of paper and then users decide what is sane < 1270419988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course a specific C function is less portable than a general implementation strategy ;-P < 1270420010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"read" is portable than the buffered IO primitives in ISO C. < 1270420024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ^less < 1270420032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Dankon. < 1270420056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, all the manual buffering increases complexity and reduces portability. < 1270420070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fucking madness. Sheer fucking madness. < 1270420075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you forgot a word there < 1270420078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" "read" is portable than the buffered IO primitives in ISO C." < 1270420082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less? < 1270420085 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :portability is completely irrelevant < 1270420090 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true it is definitely fucking madness < 1270420099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: less. < 1270420101 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd write cat in like 30 lines lol < 1270420102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270420107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30!? < 1270420111 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270420112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd write it in two < 1270420118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If in C) < 1270420121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1270420122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: More complex, less portable, harder to read, less efficient. < 1270420124 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: /msg < 1270420134 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: go do some benchmarks < 1270420139 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tell me about efficiency < 1270420140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Less efficient? < 1270420150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, mhm < 1270420161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This buffering is also done stupidly. < 1270420220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it *matters*, but damn. < 1270420245 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously were the coders drunk or something? < 1270420259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: GNU. < 1270420264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ballmer peak < 1270420284 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Patch it? < 1270420323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they would accept a patch for it < 1270420342 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1270420365 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. < 1270420367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you are probably correct < 1270420386 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah the implementation is so shitty why wouldn't any sane person accept a patch < 1270420400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1270420403 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you made a funny webcomic about it though, they might. < 1270420406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read /msg people < 1270420409 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worked for XKCD. < 1270420418 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrible buffering technique < 1270420420 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :700 lines < 1270420439 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not portable < 1270420440 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inefficient < 1270420456 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god shut up < 1270420481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main(){while(!feof(stdin))putchar(getchar());} < 1270420482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270420482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done < 1270420483 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: http://codepad.org/yG9ubkE2 obv we should've switched to BSD < 1270420498 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's not standard C. < 1270420499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: aren't you interested in portability and buffering? < 1270420512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You may get an error that isn't EOF < 1270420522 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am only interested in telling people to shut up < 1270420524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Meh. < 1270420525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270420534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270420543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine'd've been {int c; while((c = getchar()) != EOF) putchar(c);} < 1270420554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want your code to be correct, you don't use C < 1270420563 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: that is 250 lines that is terrible inefficient etc < 1270420571 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both aren't standard C. < 1270420598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's nonstandard? < 1270420616 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main() is assumed int and must return a value. < 1270420623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonstandard C can do computation with infintesimals < 1270420631 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine was just a compound statement, not the whole thing < 1270420635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270420661 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But it was in { } which was assumed to be main. < 1270420667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270420670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In standard C99 you don't have to explicitly return a value < 1270420687 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main must return < 1270420692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both aren't standard C, but one is! < 1270420693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in C99. < 1270420696 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1270420722 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you do. < 1270420729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you don't. < 1270420738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while(!feof(stdin)) putchar(getchar()); also has the problem that feof(stdin) returns true only after getchar() has actually returned EOF once, so you get an extra character at the end. < 1270420741 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only there were specs where you could check this stuff < 1270420747 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Further, the standard restricts main() to main(void) and main(int argc, char **argv) < 1270420753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C99, when control flow reaches the end of main, the return value is 0. This is an exception to the norm. < 1270420758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Really, I left out #include and int main(void) and return 0; because I couldn't be bothered to type them out) < 1270420762 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though main() is "acceptable" < 1270420765 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not recommended < 1270420787 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1270420789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. How's about non-retarded arguments? < 1270420794 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270420797 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like your mom < 1270420798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Love me some non-retarded arguments. < 1270420805 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like acne and boils < 1270420817 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fax's fagoo < 1270420874 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which do you think is better, O(n/\epsilon^2) or O(n^2/\epsilon)? < 1270420883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ISO/IEC 9899:TC2 5.1.2.2.3 "Program termination": "reaching the } that terminates the main function returns a value of 0.") < 1270420892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\epsilon is the parameter of the approximation, n is the size of input < 1270420907 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but still not recommended. < 1270420920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Yeah, shaddup. < 1270420921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your recommendations weren't under consideration. :-P < 1270420931 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not his recommendation < 1270420949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommend you all STFU < 1270420955 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru < 1270421040 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that was in the technical corrigendum number 2, which is why dixon said otherwise, because it's not in the standard prior to that < 1270421065 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, shaddup < 1270421070 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb ham < 1270421075 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG I WANT HAM < 1270421078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: We're in agreement, then. < 1270421124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: It's not in the TC2 changes, I'm pretty sure it was there from the original 9899 onwards... < 1270421127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want anyone to shut up, so more oil to the flames: the } thing is in the original ISO/IEC 9899:1999 standard, too. < 1270421142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's not in the TC1 changes either. < 1270421206 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's 1999-specific < 1270421228 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++98 had it, and it's something that would only have been considered as a legacy feature < 1270421239 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly wasn't in C89 or C90. < 1270421267 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't know why they'd put it in TC2 if it was in the original draft. < 1270421324 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9899:TC2 meant the original standard with TC up to 2 applied to it. < 1270421374 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1270421374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any version of "cat" that has special-case code to use sendfile(2) on systems that provide a suitable one. (I'm also not sure if any do; Linux's out_fd must be a socket, and I'm not sure it handles well the case where the amount of input bytes isn't known.) < 1270421426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The corrigenda are individually referred to as ISO/IEC 9899/Cor.#:200# < 1270421436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270421444 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO/IEC 9899:1999/Cor.#:200# < 1270421457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not believe there is a term to indicated the consolidated Standard < 1270421482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not care whether it was correct, I said it's what it meant and I know what I meant :-P < 1270421502 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ISO/IEC 9899:TC2" was from the header of http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf < 1270421508 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The WG14/N1124 draft pdf has... right. < 1270421520 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant-ninjutsu is too fast. < 1270421528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1270421537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways < 1270421545 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of C99, does anyone know a compiler that implements the full standard? < 1270421563 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cormac or something? < 1270421566 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost does it < 1270421568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun Studio, supposedly. < 1270421572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun's supposedly does < 1270421589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the FDIS for ISO/IEC 14882:1998 included the text about implicitly returning 0 after main. This is not a feature that would have been considered except as a legacy feature from C, and due to the timing it could not have been a C99-only feature < 1270421595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposedly sun does that < 1270421613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUN < 1270421618 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... supposedly < 1270421659 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It was a compiler extension long before it became standard, but it was never standard. < 1270421665 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fucking hate GNU compilers. < 1270421686 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: like I said, I cannot imagine this feature being included in C++ unless it was standard in C prior < 1270421700 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"before it became standard, but it was never standard" < 1270421711 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270421725 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh please guys, dixon is just changing his opinions according to ours < 1270421734 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First it was LOL GNU IS ROBUST < 1270421739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what you're saying is that it is not standard and that it was an extension before it was standard. < 1270421745 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then LOL CRAZY CODE < 1270421747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're an idiot, and /ignore. < 1270421756 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah wait are you saying dixon is trolling < 1270421757 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: To C89, yes. < 1270421764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Nah, really? < 1270421769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah woah that is a pretty strong statement < 1270421775 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: GOSH < 1270421797 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You can't honestly think implicitly returning 0 was in the C89 standard. < 1270421800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, I cannot see a public list of DRs for C90 < 1270421820 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, let us discuss C90, not C89 < 1270421828 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bet dixon doesn't even know there was a C94; well, almost. < 1270421919 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C89 and C90 are equivalent < 1270421948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270421993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I generate numerals from 000-999 in bash? < 1270422007 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jot perhaps? < 1270422029 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: seq < 1270422039 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1270422056 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nice command < 1270422147 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270422147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: are you sure all your insults to dixon are justified? < 1270422156 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270422187 0 :Mibbigal!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-sfzmrrxcqpfqodep JOIN :#esoteric < 1270422203 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bak < 1270422234 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a 'wgrep' command < 1270422240 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also btw C89 is the best < 1270422241 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270422248 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 is only good for crypto libs < 1270422250 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's it < 1270422253 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no exceptions < 1270422254 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: w? < 1270422263 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: And I wasn't trolling. It's well-known that several compiler extensions were in place before and after the C89/90 standards were ratified. Allowing 'void main()' and 'implicitly returning 0' were part of those extensions. They're still enabled in the GNU compiler by default. Yes, C99 made this 'standard' behavior, but it's still not recommended. Your functions should always return a value if they're stated to. < 1270422265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seq(1) is not POSIX! How can you suggest such a thing! < 1270422269 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Sorry, I like for(int i = ...) < 1270422274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Nor's bash. < 1270422280 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I feel sorry for you too < 1270422294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i = 0;for(...) is dumb. < 1270422302 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, though bash was already given in the question. < 1270422307 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i; for (i = 0; ...) is not, however < 1270422320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. Imma go do something more intelligent than talk to you. < 1270422326 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru < 1270422332 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like feign intelligence. < 1270422361 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The irony of him ignoring me because his misunderstood what I said is just precious. < 1270422361 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I am going to assume you've never written a compiler before and wouldn't understand why declaring variables at the start of a block is good, and also beneficial for those who maintain. < 1270422374 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he* < 1270422397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand it at all < 1270422405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm oh < 1270422428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe i wouldn't understand it either < 1270422460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i know for a fact maintainability is really uninteresting < 1270422472 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru < 1270422500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanna write big programs, you're just fucking stupid imo < 1270422507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270422515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not write small ones and not write big ones < 1270422517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The maintainability thing is also debatable; a for loop index variable isn't that much more unclear, no matter whether it's defined where the loop start or at the beginning of some arbitrary block where the loop happens to be in. < 1270422537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1270422559 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: suppose you are changing variables from int to long in order to use arrays larger than 4GB < 1270422568 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But god damnit you can't seem to find that bug in your program < 1270422573 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming language trolls handbook, page 12, section 3: "maintainability is a good one to use because if anyone disagrees you can just tell them they haven't worked on any REAL programs" < 1270422588 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax has never written in C, btw < 1270422597 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You haven't worked on any REAL programs. < 1270422599 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's funny... < 1270422609 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fax forgot an apostrophe in "trolls" < 1270422613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Shouldn't you be using size_t to begin with?-) (There's a huge mess of a thread in comp.lang.c unmoderated about that.) < 1270422619 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no < 1270422627 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I work on a "real" program, in development since 1977.. and it is the biggest pipe of shit code I've ever seen < 1270422636 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**pile < 1270422639 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you use size_t for loop indexes? It can be negative. < 1270422647 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned int all the way, baby. < 1270422654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size_t is unsigned, you know. < 1270422657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssize_t is signed. < 1270422662 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270422672 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And noone argue with me saying my situation is impractical because it indeed is! < 1270422715 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: See /msh < 1270422721 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /msg < 1270422775 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Can't you just play along? This is all part of an elaborate plot to annoy the hell out of ehirdiphone. < 1270422787 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, having said that.. the program works well.. but you just have to be a little flexible and not assume a single programming style throughout < 1270422809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: I'm not annoyed. < 1270422815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest problem with programs like that is idiots that can't be flexible < 1270422826 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: tru < 1270422830 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fax has never written a program before) < 1270422836 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they spend years trying to save themselves from getting into fights by making up 'guidlines' and stuff < 1270422860 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fax has never followed a guideline before) < 1270422899 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guidelines change.. so I don't see how that helps long term < 1270422913 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: really? < 1270422929 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, guidelines never work out in the open source world where there are no dictators < 1270422935 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: You have to be like the ISO people and have your guidelines change once a decade or so. < 1270422944 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes.. short term it helps but long term you're still going to have a mess < 1270422970 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it all kinda smooths out, because only one compiler (Sun, apparently) fully supports your changes 11 years after you make them. < 1270422981 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1270423022 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ping < 1270423032 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you find yourself unstandardized, then you get the mess of incompatibility that is D, Python, Java, etc. < 1270423038 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahhahahaha i found a video of fax on youtube < 1270423040 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo hi fizzie < 1270423041 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie hi fizzie < 1270423066 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeK1g2L1C6o < 1270423080 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270423121 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.144 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270423133 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how they talked their mom into doing this. < 1270423155 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270423170 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1270423180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270423187 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone fax hates more than me? Pleasure to meet you. < 1270423188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax = pthug? :( < 1270423208 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270423238 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nevermind, sad face and lack of retort means he's a pussy. < 1270423242 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: oblique raises [in the] neuromuscular junction < 1270423260 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Bicept Lift Ankle Krossover < 1270423271 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's Krossover with a K < 1270423274 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1270423290 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to again focus on Brainfuck < 1270423307 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm amazed what bad trolls you are. < 1270423310 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: sexy < 1270423315 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took my pants of < 1270423316 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off < 1270423326 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: me too < 1270423337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think we would have talked to you if we had anything interesting to discuss? < 1270423353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :o < 1270423355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Aw, I was hoping that to be some sort of "pants of X" special-pants thing. < 1270423363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lays on oklopol < 1270423369 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: this is also worth seeing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MjTb5A68VA&feature=channel < 1270423373 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hi < 1270423374 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets augur off < 1270423377 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f u < 1270423380 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo < 1270423383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is MINE >O < 1270423386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: hey < 1270423399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: maybe. if you're nice. < 1270423405 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um but augur you are mine therefore by the law of transitivity................................................... < 1270423415 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270423415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when am i yours >| < 1270423428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, possession is not a transitive relation. < 1270423438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it's antitransitive < 1270423440 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh since I beat some sense into you about rewrite rules < 1270423449 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU? hah! < 1270423460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the one who was all like "yeah ok i see your point ill take that into consideration" < 1270423484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ehirdiphone: Do you think we would have talked to you if we had anything interesting to discuss?" <<< what do you mean? < 1270423489 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah I had to be respectful since last time I was not respectful fax got super pissed and began to talk shit about me < 1270423501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there older women in that vid too? < 1270423557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah younger women and pencils with faces. you know what i like man < 1270423584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfbbq < 1270423674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pedopen's signature of approval < 1270423737 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://image.fpsbanana.com/ico/sprays/pedobear4dzsmalll.jpg < 1270423862 0 :Mibbigal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mibygl < 1270423899 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have a suggestion for a good high-school level algebra book? < 1270423915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my suggestion is no one learns high school level algebra < 1270423937 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's the author? < 1270423954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone is their own author in that one < 1270423964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1270423977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe more like no one. < 1270424016 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: JO < 1270424030 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270424040 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270424070 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270424138 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hay guise < 1270424139 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome back, Quadrescence. < 1270424150 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We missed you. < 1270424166 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1270424177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry oerjan we noticed you too < 1270424243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh! < 1270424249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to be invisible < 1270424272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says i have the +i flag, why isn't it working? < 1270424454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i am not ashamed to be mentioned in the haskell report. although the reasons _are_ trivial corrections. < 1270424466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION skips the rest of the logs < 1270424487 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ping < 1270424587 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's alright, we know The Truth(R)(TM)(C) < 1270424595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you shouldn't, there was this fascinating conversation about all sorts of things < 1270424651 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it was wonderful. Especially the part about measure spaces, linear coding, and compiler extensions. < 1270424688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually part of both conversations was about variables < 1270424716 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're an important topic. < 1270424728 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables don't exist < 1270424773 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mood is a variable. < 1270424775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1270425222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh. Do complain to me if you feel like what will follow is a miscarriage of justice or anything such. I don't promise I'll be awake very much longer, though; but then again, this is just an IRC channel, not the end of the world. < 1270425241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also preliminary apologies if I mess up chanserv manipulatations somehow. It's amazing what I can mess up. < 1270425252 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Besides dealing with consecutive + and -, and > and <, what optimizations can I easily make < 1270425271 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is so soft and sensitive < 1270425280 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: printing using printf or equivalent, and not simple char in and char out < 1270425281 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, two loops means the second can be discarded < 1270425310 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, I'm talking about manipulating the BF at this point, not the interpreter < 1270425323 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi < 1270425351 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimize :: [BFCmd] -> [BFCmd] < 1270425361 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o fizzie < 1270425376 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Chanserv is hard. Let's go shopping! < 1270425387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—and neutralised... < 1270425394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't really know why I bother with it anyway. < 1270425397 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Lord Pilot. < 1270425397 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why would dixon be kicked? < 1270425404 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1270425404 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@unaffiliated/reikon < 1270425404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ... < 1270425406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You missed one. < 1270425427 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ban me too plz < 1270425453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I'm trying, I'm trying. It's not as easy as it looks like. < 1270425466 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any day now < 1270425478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a very difficult nickname to spell. < 1270425483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270425485 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q u a d r e s c e n c e < 1270425498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I got it now. < 1270425503 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270425504 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@unaffiliated/quadrescence < 1270425513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "akick" thing is really brain-dead. < 1270425529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't it just kickban people, instead of just adding them to some sort of mysterious list that is only checked at join-time. < 1270425546 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nothing of value was lost. < 1270425551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1270425553 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks fizzie! < 1270425566 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you considered therapy for your op allergy? :D < 1270425580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there's some sort of topical cream I could use. < 1270425618 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees a bunch of ][ in Lost Kingdom, and decides that removal of extreneous loops isn't a bad idea, even if it misses some extraneous loops < 1270425632 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topological cream. < 1270425820 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1270425857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had something sufficiently esoteric to present (to sort-of justify that we needed the channel in a usable state), but that Piet compiler I was hoping to advertise here is still a bit too unfinished. < 1270425905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the "ERROR:main.c:94:main: code should not be reached. Aborted (core dumped)" sense of unfinished.) < 1270425956 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird < 1270425966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever heard of finite fourie transform < 1270425974 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite fourier transform < 1270425974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I want a language where self-concatenation results in nop. < 1270425986 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for all code x, xx = nop < 1270425991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yes.... < 1270425997 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270426017 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270426031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: that's probably easy if you don't also want concatenation to mean execution chaining :D < 1270426032 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flip bit, *, is a self negating op. < 1270426061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, cpressey already tried that. (burro, was it?) < 1270426067 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey, cpressey managed it but hs inverses weren't thr same < 1270426069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His < 1270426078 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were different code iirc < 1270426105 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say % moves cell < 1270426131 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If M, then move left; else move right. Toggle M.@ < 1270426140 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*M." < 1270426146 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%% is nop < 1270426148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1270426155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xyxy wouldn't be nop < 1270426156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then suppose ! = toggle M < 1270426162 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%!%! < 1270426171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if primitive operations had that property < 1270426174 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not nop. < 1270426189 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So let's say % doesn't toggle M. < 1270426200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then %!%! is a nop. < 1270426202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would need xyx = y for all x,y, essentially < 1270426213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, an _abelian_ group < 1270426222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well that's what im doing < 1270426226 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270426245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* flip; % if m then leftelse right; ! toggle m < 1270426246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you end up just xoring bits of features, that way < 1270426256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bit fields < 1270426258 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is ok so far, right? < 1270426272 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%*!%*! < 1270426291 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.0 0 0 < 1270426297 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 .0 0 < 1270426312 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 .1 0 (not m) < 1270426326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.0 1 0 (not m) < 1270426332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.1 1 0 < 1270426335 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1270426371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: each operation would essentially be a flip of some set of bits < 1270426376 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliminate ! Then < 1270426387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> if m then right else left < 1270426397 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< if m then left else right < 1270426402 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both toggle m < 1270426417 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: new idea < 1270426428 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p(reverse p) = nop < 1270426452 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*>*< <*>* < 1270426462 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 0 0 0 < 1270426471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 .0 0 0 < 1270426473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's easy since you only need each primitive operation to have that property < 1270426480 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 .1 0 0 < 1270426491 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 .0 0 < 1270426498 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 .1 0 0 < 1270426503 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that works < 1270426508 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My optimizer stripped 1781 bytes off of Lost Kingdom < 1270426522 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is pp = nop feasible < 1270426528 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in potentially tc? < 1270426534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least nontrivial < 1270426538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1270426565 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then reversing it is. < 1270426592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has to be an abelian group, you could _sort_ the operations and it would be equivalent. obviously the only property remaining is whether each primitive operation is an even or odd number of times < 1270426594 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symmys, is the name. < 1270426616 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: nice < 1270426631 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, how so? < 1270426636 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ha < 1270426640 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: closer to 2 mb :P < 1270426677 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok what about pp=opposite of p < 1270426689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: that just means ppp = nop, right? < 1270426689 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing currently doesn't have the brains to run parts of code, see the result, and just put it back in < 1270426708 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm.. yes, I suppose < 1270426748 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: my bfbasic language produces rather bloated code, so I'm sure you can do better :) < 1270426761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems trickier to understand. hm. < 1270426771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: it is truly hideous code! :) < 1270426781 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, the only effect my optimizer has is removing loops that occur immediately after loops < 1270426802 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is curious about the [-][.] structure at the beginning < 1270426864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oppoppo would be a nice name for the pp=opposite p Lang. < 1270426881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: obviously abelian groups made out of Z_3 parts will fulfil that, but i'm wondering if it can be non-abelian < 1270426940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm for finite groups, now what was that theorem... < 1270426987 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270427011 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: ??? < 1270427029 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No what I'll call "flat" code (code made up of +-<>) should need to change direction more than twice < 1270427045 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, Lost Kingdom begins with [-][.]. < 1270427050 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, not the last . < 1270427056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm curious as to why < 1270427080 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he added that on, but I don't see that in the actual compiler < 1270427101 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, 3 times, not twice < 1270427107 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-][.] seems... dumb < 1270427117 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It's omittable in its entirety. < 1270427130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I think that's a stripped out set of comment blocks? < 1270427143 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p^3 = 1 can be non-abelian iirc < 1270427171 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my optimizer currently isn't perfect < 1270427172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x3 upper triangle matrices < 1270427179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no wait < 1270427181 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just emits loops after loops at this point < 1270427189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. < 1270427214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway there was some sort of example i'm too tired to come up with < 1270427226 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it won't attempt to optimize + - < 1270427230 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I consider that a feature < 1270427304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm sylow's theorem, but i'm not sure it helps < 1270427307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*theorems < 1270427339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh fine < 1270427356 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to find it but it seems the webpage of our algebra course is down < 1270427370 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow you can do it with matrices < 1270427381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 on the diagonal ofc < 1270427387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or how about p^length(p) = nop :) < 1270427394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if it's finite it must have order 3^n, at least < 1270427415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: aigh < 1270427454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually that might give some restrictions < 1270427459 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that loops nested thus: [++[-]] means that the outer loop doesn't need to be a loo\ < 1270427461 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loop < 1270427469 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1270427473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :** is nop < 1270427478 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is ****** < 1270427479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: um wait then every primitive operation is a nop :D < 1270427481 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270427489 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1 a b) (0 1 c) (0 0 1))^3 = ((1 2a (2b + ab)) (0 1 2c) (0 0 1)) ((1 a b) (0 1 c) (0 0 1)), so okay, the idea is you take a field with char 3 < 1270427493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*^1 you see < 1270427495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: er I mean < 1270427503 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :length+1 < 1270427508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270427520 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :********* is nop < 1270427532 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I incorrect somehow? < 1270427561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: how do you get the last one? < 1270427600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: #*** = 3; ***^4 = ************ < 1270427601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: the outer loop could still be done 0 or 1 times < 1270427622 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#** = 2; **^3 = ****** < 1270427624 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1270427624 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270427638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: l*(l+1) is always even < 1270427650 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... < 1270427655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are simply getting everything (**)^n < 1270427665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equivalent to having just ** < 1270427680 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^#x-1 = nop :D < 1270427693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay checked < 1270427707 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nop from ** is ** < 1270427716 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from ***, ****** < 1270427724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****, ************ < 1270427734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for p^3 = 1, you can take any field F with char(F) = 3, and the upper triangular matrices with 1 in the diagonal will be a non-abelian group with p^3 = 1 w.r.t. multiplication < 1270427762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything except p^3 is obvious, i couldn't do that with ascii notation < 1270427775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would've been much easier to work out in my head < 1270427793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p^3 = 1 < 1270427816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: still all even. and _you_ do realize that concatenating nops gives a nop, right? < 1270427837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i'm being silly < 1270427851 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN WE PLEASE TALK ABOUT THESE GROUPS NOW < 1270427880 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: make em eso < 1270427889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groups are very eso < 1270427899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-abelian ones < 1270427903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least < 1270427907 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groups don't exist < 1270427940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 3x3 matrices, you said? < 1270427951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270427975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just 3 degrees of freedom... < 1270427998 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p^63 = nop < 1270428003 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy? :P < 1270428005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are degrees of freedom? i've heard of them but didn't really gut it < 1270428037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension of space, mostly? < 1270428058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270428060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool :) < 1270428084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in statistics the explanation was really vague < 1270428090 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270428108 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.144 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270428153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you're still op >:) < 1270428176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270428189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1 a b; 0 1 c; 0 0 1] [1 d e; 0 1 f; 0 0 1] = [1 d+a e+af+b; 0 1 f+c; 0 0 1] < 1270428204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i did it correctly < 1270428212 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iidic < 1270428276 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270428289 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1270428338 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fax < 1270428345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270428349 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270428372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: looks plausible < 1270428375 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will you still ignore me if I mention p, q and <-> fax < 1270428444 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer: yes < 1270428467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so M^2 = [1 2a 2b+ac; 0 1 2c; 0 0 1], M^3 = [1 3a 2b+ac+2ac+b; 0 1 3c; 0 0 1] = 0 if char. 3 < 1270428470 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I PMd you < 1270428477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 1, yes < 1270428478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, = 1 < 1270428497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz non-abelian < 1270428505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and cuz matrix i guess < 1270428525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-abelian doesn't apply when multiplying a matrix with itself, though < 1270428533 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1270428562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you don't use 0 for identity in one place and 1 in another < 1270428573 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so because the group isn't altogether abelian, you'd use 1 < 1270428576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a typo :D < 1270428591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 = identity matrix < 1270428596 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270428599 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:47… oklopol: cuz non-abelian < 1270428600 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:47… oklopol: ...and cuz matrix i guess < 1270428606 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i included both reasons < 1270428630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHATEVER < 1270428647 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using Z_3 as the field, that gives 9 elements < 1270428650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean because the 0 couldn't have been interpreted as the zero matrix < 1270428659 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would definitely still have been the identity matrix < 1270428680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh, and it doesn't need to be a field, a commutative ring is sufficient < 1270428694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think the non-abelian thing is a better reason- < 1270428695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1270428707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1270428848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1270428856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dog -> < 1270429135 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dog food < 1270429245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the _next_ question is, can we get an infinite group of this type with finitely many generators? < 1270429334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then something whose word problem is unsolvable, to perhaps give us TC? < 1270429358 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im TC < 1270429360 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(turning crazy) < 1270429787 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270429794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just have {a, b} and w^3 = 1 for all words, then you have an infinite amount of words and finite amt of generators, i think < 1270429810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a group because p^-1 = pp < 1270429832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1270429837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Burnside problem, posed by William Burnside in 1902 and one of the oldest and most influential questions in group theory, asks whether a finitely generated group in which every element has finite order must necessarily be a finite group" < 1270429851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1270429854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh umm < 1270429856 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEAD END REACHED < 1270429862 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay then there must be something wrong with mine < 1270429867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone no the answer is no < 1270429878 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270429882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not entirely unanswered, mind you < 1270429884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no dead end < 1270429891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, isn't it completely answered? < 1270429897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be < 1270429901 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about ppppp = nop < 1270429903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just reading the article < 1270429909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it was by some russians < 1270429914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: that falls under burnside too. < 1270429917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :construction was like 200 pages < 1270429926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, burnside is generally false, it seems < 1270429932 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p^1001 = nop < 1270429932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said that < 1270429939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270429942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is no < 1270429960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that's why construction an not proof < 1270429962 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't tell us which particular powers are possible < 1270429963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and < 1270429989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhhhh < 1270429996 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA < 1270429997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i just realized what was wrong with my idea < 1270430005 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME TO SEARCH FUCKERS < 1270430038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take {a, b}^3 and then take the free monoid with the constraint w^3 = 1, then also uw^3 = 1 for all u, w. so it's not a group, it's just a monoid < 1270430062 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so turns out the burnside problem of monoids can be answered by any fucker in a minute, but for groups it requires russians. < 1270430080 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err {a, b}^* obviously < 1270430097 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: um any monoid in which everything has w^3 = 1 is a group < 1270430115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have an explicit inverse w^2 < 1270430125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well umm yes < 1270430128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's wrong < 1270430142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you haven't proved it's actually infinite... < 1270430154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thue morse word has no repetition of order more than 2 < 1270430159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take subwords < 1270430166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1270430185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they need not be different < 1270430214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can expand any 1 < 1270430217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the middle < 1270430289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By contrast, very little is known when exponents are small, exponents 2,3,4 and 6 excepted." < 1270430341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, it's probably still unsolved for many of them < 1270430357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but solved for 3, so probably it's finite then < 1270430441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what you need to do for semigroups is to add a 0 element and set uxxxv = 0 for all u, x, v < 1270430474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can find an infinite amount of words in a binary alphabet by taking thue-morse < 1270430530 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have 0*u = 0 = u*0, obviously not a group < 1270430568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"B(m,3), B(m,4), and B(m,6) are finite for all m." < 1270430572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now for any substring of the thue-morse word, you can do no rewrites, because the 0 element doesn't occur and neither does a repetition of order 3 < 1270430593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m is the size of finite basis? < 1270430597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and B(m,2) is even simpler, it's what we discussed above) < 1270430600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270430601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not basis set of generators < 1270430609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yeah < 1270430777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The particular case of B(2, 5) remains open: as of 2005[update], it is not known whether this group is finite. < 1270430794 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's finite < 1270430822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um and you know this how? :D < 1270430953 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying random stuff sorry :( < 1270430972 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a CROBOTs tournament at the end of the month if anyone want to take part < 1270431122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o fizzie < 1270431134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oh, I completely forgot about that.) < 1270431650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Moreover, the word and conjugacy problems were shown to be effectively solvable in B(m, n) both for the cases of odd and even exponents n." < 1270431677 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh all exponents n < 1270431687 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be another way of saying that. < 1270431688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might mean it is hard to make something TC even if B(m, n) is infinite < 1270431730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: well, it is at the end of a section where every other result _does_ distinguish odd and even < 1270431768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even being apparently more complicated in several respects < 1270431800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/section/paragraph/ < 1270431930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski_monster_group < 1270431952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those have some huge exponents though < 1270431953 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431] < 1270432026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oho < 1270432031 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lik monster groups < 1270432043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to study moonshine but I have to learn some stuff first..... < 1270432050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not _the_ monster group though < 1270432054 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270432060 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize there was other ones actually < 1270432065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are actually infinite < 1270432072 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :( < 1270432089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but have _only_ finite subgroups < 1270432100 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270432101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only of a particular, prime order < 1270432150 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarski & hutch < 1270432264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: there are google hits for that < 1270432330 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION somewhat mindboggles at a package that provides isBottom < 1270432449 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: there is a package by conal containing a function f such that < 1270432465 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f _|_ y = y < 1270432472 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x _|_ = x < 1270432476 0 :charlls!charlls@166.237.150.123 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270432485 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if neither are _|_, it returns either < 1270432508 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(psst: the one that evaluates first) < 1270432511 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it deals with nontermination by being whichever is .. riht < 1270432607 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition isBottom {A} (x : A) : bool := true. < 1270432610 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1270432614 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false < 1270432637 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird lol I just wrote that in #haskell a moment ago < 1270432645 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270432656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET TO BED :| < 1270432662 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to try to program for a bit first < 1270432667 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably wont work and I'll go < 1270432691 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do computable reals < 1270432704 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove some thing about them < 1270432795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function on them is continuous, i hear. you could prove that. < 1270432798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird yeah I have been meaning to write in the bit about reals from my book < 1270432807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm not sure if that is provable! < 1270432822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1270432823 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think it's _true_ but may be sort of like the continuum hypothesis or similar < 1270432843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking interally though < 1270432850 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like inside the type theory < 1270432858 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I hope I am not making this up < 1270432889 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270432902 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's related to the unprovability of trichotomy < 1270432920 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trichotomy implies some pretty strong statements but I don't think it quite reaches P \/ ~P < 1270432932 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270432958 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you can't prove the trichotomy for comp reals? < 1270432961 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to get a better understand of this stuff < 1270432968 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270432972 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and write a note on it or something < 1270432983 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's q middle ground < 1270432985 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a < 1270432988 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this computable reals and analysis stuff (and meta theory) < 1270433018 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe continued fractions? < 1270433043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continued frractions are something I am not very comfortable with... < 1270433051 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1270433058 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used them < 1270433072 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1/1+1/... < 1270433079 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the golden ratio < 1270433082 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONE < 1270433085 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1270433085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that one :P < 1270433091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i suppose it's about how if you have one real x and another real y then it can be that for every n they are closer than 1/n but you cannot prove it < 1270433100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(prove forall ...) < 1270433102 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you solve every quadratic as a continued fraction? < 1270433105 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll play with them tomorrow I guess < 1270433123 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: every real has a continued fraction < 1270433132 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any BF optimizers that optimize back into BF code? < 1270433140 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well Chaitins constant... < 1270433146 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes < 1270433148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still must be able to define functions on them, and therefore any functions must also have their value close < 1270433157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=(-b/a)+(-c/a)/x < 1270433157 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same site as list kingdom < 1270433163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jonripley or sth < 1270433175 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-b/a)+(-c/a)/((-b/a)+(-c/a)/((-b/a)+(-c/a)/((-b/a)+(-c/a)... < 1270433176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1270433184 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that will never give a complex value < 1270433189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be right < 1270433197 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it diverges on those cases < 1270433203 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll define continued fractions in coq tomorrow < 1270433213 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no unitness tomorrow? < 1270433230 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not tomorrow. M < 1270433231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: quadratics have _periodic_ continued fractions iirc < 1270433238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only they < 1270433246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*roots of < 1270433261 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't see any optimization stuff on the site < 1270433273 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a continued fraction still has to be a function... < 1270433278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat->nat < 1270433283 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270433295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well real ones i guess < 1270433316 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pokes ehirdiphone  < 1270433336 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Search more < 1270433349 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270433354 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270433404 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait does 0 have a continued fraction < 1270433423 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = 0 + 0/(0 + 0/(0 + ... < 1270433431 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 repeated means that 0 = 0 + 1/0 = 1/0 < 1270433446 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, are you sure there's something there? < 1270433449 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 0(1/0) =/= 1 < 1270433456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: 80% < 1270433468 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: oh 0/ < 1270433474 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees nothing relevant < 1270433483 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 0/ allowed in a continued fractin? < 1270433490 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be... < 1270433493 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just 1/ afaik < 1270433508 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/ would be pretty dumb in a continued fraction < 1270433539 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : N -> N; R(f) = f(0) + 1/(f(1) + 1/...) < 1270433625 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I'm still not seeing it < 1270433630 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably stop whining < 1270433645 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im curious abuot the convergence of this continued fraction for quadratic < 1270433663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it's clearly been optimized away < 1270433690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no, 1/ only in ordinary continued fractions < 1270433696 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1270433697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1270433701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he has one, he either didn't realize the pointlessness of ][loop] < 1270433703 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes things harder < 1270433704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270433708 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/infinity = 0 < 1270433716 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or he doesn't run his own code through it < 1270433717 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the continued fraction for infinitY? < 1270433724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 1/0 ? < 1270433725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + 1/0 I guess < 1270433731 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0 = 0 + 1/infinty < 1270433748 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0 = 0 + 1 /( 1 + 1 /( 0 + 1 /( < 1270433757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think 0 and infinity are sort of boundary cases < 1270433770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just let the fraction _end_ there < 1270433779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 0 := 1; f (S _) := 2 // sqrt 2 < 1270433787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any integer for that matter. < 1270433816 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to orbit around e-4 < 1270433821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not get smaller < 1270433838 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's getting smaller... just takes some time < 1270433904 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which infinity it is < 1270433913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero is all the same but infinity is all different < 1270433914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tastiest one. < 1270433926 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my favorite infinity is sqrt(2pi) < 1270433941 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats' 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + ... IIRC < 1270433943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1270433959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sorry it's 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 5 * ... < 1270433970 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + ... = -1/12 < 1270433981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly. < 1270434008 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey everyone makes mistakes < 1270434008 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270434032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey wait a minute. now _you_ are doing math and _i_ am saying random nonsense. < 1270434057 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: also of course all rationals only have finite continued fractions < 1270434069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So really it is nat -> maybe nat < 1270434079 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270434084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the old 3/5-switch :) < 1270434089 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(two; irrationals have one infinite one) < 1270434106 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fuck yeah I just referenced wiles proof of fermats lol theorem) < 1270434120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = 1/(0+1/(0+1/(... *whistles innocently* < 1270434136 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiPHONE can you prove that every rational is finite? < 1270434145 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite continued fraction < 1270434152 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure that it is true but I wonder how to actually build it < 1270434156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no but wikipedia can < 1270434163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euclidean algorithm < 1270434168 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checkout < 1270434171 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270434175 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checkkit < 1270434180 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1270434187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction on the size of numerator and denominator < 1270434210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270434252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/and/+/ if you want a specific measure < 1270434300 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270434372 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/9/7/f9729d86173eced1bc46aeb6087dada9.png <------ nice picture < 1270434417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but... it's not fractal! < 1270434469 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the . < 1270434481 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 0 at the end of the recurring 9s < 1270434623 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Autotune the news tomorrow! < 1270434711 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( Autotune < 1270434720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obama the musical? < 1270434740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles that < 1270434776 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autotune the news! < 1270434782 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autotune the news! < 1270434789 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything sounds beeettet < 1270434792 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beetter < 1270434796 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autotuuuuuuned < 1270434847 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These later ones tend to reference earlier ones < 1270434898 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :banbino < 1270434902 0 :banbino!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Banbino < 1270435040 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270435144 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270435299 0 :Banbino!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1270435565 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270435637 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270435730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270435769 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270436072 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270436225 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-182.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270436273 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270436274 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1270436320 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270436321 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270436324 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270436326 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270436974 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270437110 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270437274 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1270437274 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270437947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me? < 1270438022 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffffff < 1270438028 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what I was going to say to you < 1270438042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah have you seen divisibility lattices? < 1270438172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270438219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lesse ... 1 is bottom ... is there a top? < 1270438231 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the top is the number you are factoring < 1270438232 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270438235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not < 1270438235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I guess it's not < 1270438240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take all nats < 1270438243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about infinity! < 1270438249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*2*3*4*5*.. < 1270438250 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who says you can't divide by infinity? < 1270438258 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's divisible by everything infinetly many times < 1270438266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the obvious way to make it bounded i guess < 1270438278 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you add infinity to make it bounded? :D < 1270438326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... yes :P < 1270438362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now you must add more infinities, like 2*2*2*... >:) < 1270438385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which ones have values and which dont < 1270438394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1270438401 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently harmonic series doesn't have a value < 1270438409 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am not sure about htat.. < 1270438419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although 1*2*3*4*5*... is still on top, all primes divide it infinitely often < 1270438453 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man I just can't understand this chapter < 1270439069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: don't be your brain's bitch < 1270439115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pain's bridge < 1270439159 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously I have been working on this stuff for 3 days now < 1270439168 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very difficult < 1270439170 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not Gauss < 1270439186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely degaussed, in fact < 1270439192 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..................................................... lol < 1270439203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay seems the divisibility lattices are distributive < 1270439234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the sum of one N lattice per prime, isn't it < 1270439280 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how dod you prove it? < 1270439293 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i proved it using the cool characterization i mentioned < 1270439296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's how you can use it to program in fractran) < 1270439298 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I want to see :))) < 1270439300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in burris' book on universal algebra < 1270439303 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you find two numbers? < 1270439309 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for each of those lattices < 1270439314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's really easy to prove < 1270439325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just check it yourself if you know the characterization < 1270439333 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if it's easy from the definition < 1270439360 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea was to try both to see how much better the characterization is in action, but i'm not sure i have the energy now < 1270439389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how do you define the sum of two lattices? < 1270439401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of an infinite number of them, actually... < 1270439411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270439418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (x, y) <= (z, w) iff x <= z, y <= w? < 1270439424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1270439441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i realized only a finite number can be different from 0 < 1270439441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that extended to infinite products < 1270439455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270439474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is analogous to sums of modules/abelian groups < 1270439486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. products that are unrestricted < 1270439505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1270439534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one thing i remember about distributive lattice is that they are exactly the sublattices of boolean algebras < 1270439540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lattices < 1270439552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so we can take the sublattice of N^P generated by the individual primes, maybe < 1270439564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are?!? < 1270439569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an even cooler characterization. < 1270439571 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes iirc < 1270439585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a whole chapter about boolean algebras in the universal algebra book < 1270439596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately not in the exam so i'm probably not going to read it anytime soon < 1270439640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one way of showing this is that _both_ classes of algebras have only {0,1} as their subdirectly irreducible members < 1270439661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(up to isomorphism) < 1270439729 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a less heavy-weight method, i just happened to learn about subdirectly irreducible algebras once < 1270439741 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i've actually proved the former < 1270439755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proved what? < 1270439768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270439781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to have expanded both and said former about one of the two < 1270439788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've proved that for distributive lattices < 1270439810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proved _what_ for distributive lattices? < 1270439816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1270439819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270439839 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the class of distributive lattices has only {0,1} as a subdirectly irreducible member < 1270439850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exercise 1.11. Show that a distributive lattice is subdirectly irreducible if and only if it < 1270439850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a 2-element lattice. < 1270439855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1270439869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harder than it sounds, that one < 1270439874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from this it should be trivial actually < 1270439881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need the other one < 1270439882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should, huh. < 1270439914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just note that a product of 2-element lattices is also a boolean algebra < 1270439933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subdirect irreducability still feels a bit strange to me, don't see how that's useful directly, but i'm all ears < 1270439942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270439949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270439975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the thing is every algebra is a subdirect product of irreducible ones < 1270439992 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270439995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a subdirect product is a special kind of subalgebra of a product < 1270439997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270440013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know what it is, and i'm starting to see how the proof would go < 1270440066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm first of all every distributive algebra must be a subdirect product of {0, 1}'s, which are boolean algebras < 1270440074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270440080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lattice < 1270440088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right < 1270440099 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why is the subdirect embedding also a boolean algebra? < 1270440107 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait is that obvious < 1270440119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not, it's a _sublattice_ of one < 1270440135 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1270440142 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so actually it is totally trivial < 1270440166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you get the lemma proved < 1270440180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270440246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea for the lemma is there's a very strong characterization for the smallest congruence relation C(a, b) equating a and b, so if there are three elements, and C(a, c) and C(b, c) both contain (a, b), you can use the characterization to prove a = b < 1270440269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can separate any pair by a nontrivial congruence, which is equivalent to not being subdirectly irreducible < 1270440278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure why i told you that < 1270440285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe just because i remembered it. < 1270440347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually had this really complicated proof with pictures and shit, the other guy on the course had a short algebraic proof and said "i have no idea what i actually did here, but it seems to be correct" < 1270440399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have many more uninteresting stories, if you wanna hear < 1270440400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. when i learned about subdirect products i just played around with defining congruences. iirc a /\ x = a /\ y gives a congruence, and similarly for \/ < 1270440417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, i though in terms of quotients < 1270440420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thought < 1270440464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these congruences exist both for distributive lattices and for boolean algebras < 1270440502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(boolean algebras sort of are distributive lattices, so isn't that obvious) < 1270440507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(?) < 1270440524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes as long as you prove "not" is also preserved < 1270440538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm right < 1270440630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: where a subdirect product is a special kind of subalgebra of a product" <<< why leave this open, it means it's surjective w.r.t. any individual index of the product < 1270440653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a /\ ~(a /\ x) = a /\ ~a \/ a /\ ~x = a /\ ~x < 1270440660 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like it when people leave things out of definitions, everything starts feeling all blurry and scary < 1270440680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a very clear definition < 1270440703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so wait what did that prove exactly < 1270440722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ~ is preserved by the congruence. at least i think it implies it. < 1270440750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well just after i said that you told you already knew about it < 1270440752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see if i can even see what it means to be preserved by a congruence... < 1270440776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270440786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, i didn't mean "why did you leave this open", i just needed to fill it < 1270440788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still thinking in terms of quotients, you see < 1270440791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**you* < 1270440799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh umm hmm right < 1270440851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the map x -> a /\ x is a quotient map, if you redefine the operations on the range by applying extra a /\ ... liberally < 1270440869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a is just some element you choose? < 1270440873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270440882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and quotient maps give congruences, of course < 1270440899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i shouldn't even call it quotient < 1270440906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :homomorphism < 1270440913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel is a congruence < 1270440914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270440934 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just isomorphic to the quotient of the congruence < 1270440967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, by the famous whatevermorphism theorem < 1270440995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially all you have to prove is that applying a /\ ... liberally on the right side _does_ make it a homomorphism < 1270441027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the above equation does that for ~ < 1270441061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you proved h(~(h(x))) = h(~x)? < 1270441068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for /\ it's almost trivial, and for \/ you need the distributive law < 1270441069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where h is the homom < 1270441085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1270441105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where h is the map < 1270441133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you prove ~h(x) = h(~x), that is, ~(a ^ x) = a ^ ~x < 1270441139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1270441150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm a bit lost. < 1270441166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope the thing is that we don't use the same operations on the range (even if it is a subset) < 1270441190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we use the operations with the h liberally reapplied at the end < 1270441215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like ~y : range = a ^ ~y : domain < 1270441216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we're defining a new algebra which just happens to share some points < 1270441223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270441265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this works very well for distributive lattices and boolean algebras < 1270441290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also played around with doing it for heyting algebras < 1270441306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got kripke models that way < 1270441448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(heyting algebras are to intuitionistic logic what boolean algebras are to boolean logic) < 1270441463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i finally get your one-liner up there. < 1270441471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the range vs domain issue was a bit confusing < 1270441511 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh they are now? i just know they have ->. < 1270441532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i remember most of the axioms < 1270441569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes. i guess the fact i could do this was a kind of an epiphany, made it much simpler to find congruences < 1270441583 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know cylindrical algebras of dimension n and n-valued post algebras? < 1270441591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck no < 1270441627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay those were the two weirder examples of algebras in the book < 1270441690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering because you seem to have an intimate relationship with all the others < 1270441707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had never heard of heyting algebras either < 1270441720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean algebras i had heard of, surprisingly enough < 1270441725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc i found in an _irreducible_ heyting algebra that a \/ b is true iff either a is true or b is true, where "is true" means is equal to the true element < 1270441774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does true mean? :) < 1270441792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is true iff 1 -> x or something? < 1270441794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1270441797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that even mean < 1270441804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me rethink < 1270441807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well 1 is the true element i guess < 1270441825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so x is true means x = 1? < 1270441828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270441851 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that subdirectly irreducible or directly? < 1270441865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subdirectly < 1270441879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know which is more common, prolly subdirect because of the problems direct has < 1270441881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i was dabbling with at the time < 1270441890 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, right < 1270441934 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270441978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was about time this channel had an interesting conversation, i thank you for that. i should get back to my stuffs now < 1270441993 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also _think_ that if x is not 0, then there is a heyting algebra homomorphism sending x to 1 != 0 < 1270442032 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's too much axioms for me to wanna try that straight from the definition < 1270442065 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not that many but anyway < 1270442068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it may have been just using a map like x /\ ... and the above trick < 1270442086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly x => ... < 1270442089 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.. think, now that I understand how to use StateT, the actual implentation of the interpreter just became trivial < 1270442090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-> < 1270442100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: heh < 1270442122 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although not quite.. I don't think sequence does quite what I want it to do < 1270442145 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, hm. That "trivial" function doesn't quite ty.. n/m < 1270442150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequence does them one after the other, passing each state to the next, iirc < 1270442168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(afa state is concerned) < 1270442213 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was wrongly thinking that the thing for , would be StateT Tape IO Char, but it is StateT Tape IO (), just like everything else < 1270442336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what did you want sequence for? < 1270442347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe sequence_ would be better? < 1270442369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you're not interested in any results not in the state, so) < 1270442405 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, getting my point about being confused across, I know the difference < 1270442429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270442489 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, if I want to use sequence, I can always use (const () . ) (sequence_ $) < 1270442498 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, don't know if that's exactly what I'd use < 1270442508 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no _ obviously < 1270442516 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not quite a master of pointfree < 1270442555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :const () `fmap` < 1270442574 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270442640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, i think sequence_ sometimes is more tail recursive < 1270442667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it doesn't need to put on the return value remembered < 1270442737 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270442895 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to go eat now < 1270442907 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1270443317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you say it's complete and utter overkill to use Linux to make a disk image that does the following: run LostKng? < 1270443419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/use.*: // *whistles innocently* < 1270443444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hah. < 1270443862 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270443894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270444485 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :legalify = cmdsToBF . parseBF -- Turns any string into legal BF < 1270444505 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not checking for hitting the left edge or negatives or anything < 1270444675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any string already is legal BF, unless it has mismatched brackets >:) < 1270444707 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :legalify fixes mismatched brackets < 1270444715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1270444728 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although fixing might not be what's wanted < 1270444739 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270444760 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(truncating at the first extra ], and adding ] if there were extra [) < 1270444803 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270444889 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270444977 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, does sequence_ work well with infinite lists? < 1270445002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so < 1270445040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequence_ = foldr (>>) (return ()) < 1270445044 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequence = fold.. was about to ask < 1270445061 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might have said foldl though :/ < 1270445077 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sequence_, yeah < 1270445115 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with >>, there's supposed to be no difference, right? < 1270445120 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And foldr works with infinite lists < 1270445139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should think it's intended to be usable < 1270445195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as the monad used can handle it < 1270445630 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270445899 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270446353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270446584 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270446771 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1270447326 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270449005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270449677 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270449977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270449986 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270450764 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270451312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey kidos < 1270452375 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270453183 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1270453191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who you < 1270453278 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270453537 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270454399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270454400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270455468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270455490 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270456914 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270456955 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270459743 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270461745 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270461846 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270461958 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270462281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more clear case of yesterday's banned two made a reasonable argument that the other ban was merely collateral damage, and that the subject might behave and contribute constructively. I don't know how true that is -- for all I know, it might be a Clever Ruse and they could be the same person -- but since it's not such a great chore to reapply the ban, and I'll be around reasonably well for the next some hours to monitor what happen < 1270462281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s, I think I'm going to unban the other one. < 1270462283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If (s?he|it) decides to come back, you might consider explaining that -- while it may not always be apparent -- there's some sort of vaguely defined set of channel-appropriate behaviour; and while disagreeing is one thing, deliberately annoying people, at least for an extended amount of time, is another. < 1270462489 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o fizzie < 1270462500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*@unaffiliated/quadrescence < 1270462503 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o fizzie < 1270463004 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270463105 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270463114 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270464944 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270467314 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270467404 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270467926 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270470632 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270470895 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-20-226.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270471962 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270472332 0 :adu_!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270472487 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270473627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how a program on a single core, single cpu system, can have higher cpu time than wall time. < 1270473673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to my watch it has been running for about 1.5 minutes, But cpu time in top of it is 3 minutes and 24 seconds < 1270473766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi btw < 1270473820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270473895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea about the weird cpu time btw, ais523 ? < 1270473913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270473922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... are you overclocking/underclocking the system? < 1270473936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that the CPU has a bogus idea of how much time it's taking, I suppose < 1270473947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ondemand cpu speed is in use < 1270473951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no overclocking < 1270473984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since this process is baiscally CPU bound it is eating about 99% of the CPU all the time < 1270473988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1270473991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the system should be at top speed < 1270474004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, cpufreq-info confirms that system is running at 2 GHz < 1270474018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there the process finished < 1270474025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hard to tell now afterwards < 1270474082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was optipng running on a few thousand small png files btw) < 1270475647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to write sort(1) in dd/sh < 1270476263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is it just me, or has spam decreased drastically during the past 2 days or so < 1270476284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only got one spam during that period, normally I get something like 30 / day or so... < 1270476325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1270476338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still getting just as much spam as before < 1270476342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270476360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure chance then I guess < 1270476434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be some list with like "don't spam me, I'm too smart to fall for it". Sadly I guess that wouldn't work... < 1270476525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I imagine it would work in a similar way to those block-telemarketing registers) < 1270476539 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270476663 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270477872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"./textures/cargo/explosives.png: Microsoft DirectDraw Surface (DDS), 128 x 128, DXT1" <-- Quite a lot of wtf here... 1) .png for THAT? 2) The game this is from uses OpenGL, not sure if it runs on windows at all... < 1270477924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: those registers do work < 1270477935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in the UK, telemarketing companies don't want to be tracked down and fined < 1270477961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270478084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what I meant was that it wouldn't work for spam < 1270478093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it wouldn't < 1270478104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, a spammer was arrested and fined in California recently < 1270478118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it made the headlines, on the basis that nobody expected they'd actually catch one < 1270478150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270478286 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270478332 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but most of them are probably A) unwilling participants in a botnet and/or B) not in a country that gives a shit. < 1270478638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, the spammer in question was a business doing it deliberately, and even turned up in court to defend itself < 1270478650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is also rather bizzare < 1270478868 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Did I ever link http://codu.org/music/vg/gm1.ogg at you? < 1270478897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1270478905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wgets < 1270478935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, piano, some sort of synth? < 1270478962 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s more video game music (created per request) < 1270478965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hm... some string instrument < 1270478977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and huh, a lot more < 1270478980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's an odd ensemble :P < 1270478986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, nice though < 1270478991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far at least < 1270478999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, was there a xylophone? < 1270479005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I generally like video game music < 1270479019 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing even similar :P < 1270479035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays it < 1270479051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, some percussion thing that sounded somewhat wooden? < 1270479064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only for a very short period < 1270479074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that you're referring amusingly to the Shamisen :P < 1270479082 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a plucked string instrument. < 1270479094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, never heard of Shamisen before < 1270479099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes very nice. < 1270479139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but please provide me a list of the instruments < 1270479150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, for which video game was it created? < 1270479170 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a class project of a friend of a friend. < 1270479182 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do one better, I think ... < 1270479200 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/music/vg/gm1.mid < 1270479206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/music/vg/gm1.rg even < 1270479245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aargh wth. That isn't the QT theme in rosegarden < 1270479253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why it is mostly black < 1270479261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270479263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like a cross of blender and QT < 1270479266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awful < 1270479277 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'snot supposed to look like that :P < 1270479290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah, let me check other QT apps... < 1270479305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I use Rosegarden to < 1270479305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kate looks normal < 1270479306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1270479314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270479320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konsole and Rosegarden are the only Qt apps I use regularly, and konsole is supposed to be mostly black :P < 1270479322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: why does it go silent from 1:00 onwards? < 1270479338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the theme 0.....0b3.....32e.....edge...... < 1270479342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it isn't? < 1270479349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe your download failed? < 1270479350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "It"? < 1270479353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or youy hit mute? < 1270479356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: your music < 1270479363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with chromatic scale fedcba0123 < 1270479366 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, that's a "you" fail, since it does not :P < 1270479375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's strange, I rewound past 1:00 and then it started working < 1270479377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's pretty much the only theme < 1270479383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, which version of rosegarden do you have? < 1270479396 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1.7.3 < 1270479419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.02 here??? < 1270479426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened there < 1270479436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they jump or something < 1270479442 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guhhh ...? :P < 1270479461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/ < 1270479462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently they did. < 1270479468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh it *is* supposed to look like that < 1270479477 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use whatever the latest in Debian is X-P < 1270479493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but the gui is supposed to look black, see screenshot on their website < 1270479495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how awful < 1270479508 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they're doing the retarded year = release number thing. < 1270479515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even fit together < 1270479516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was there a matrix mode in rosegarden < 1270479523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it seems to use the GTK style for some stuff < 1270479524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Sure < 1270479530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as I set up qtconfig to do) < 1270479537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you get it for win? < 1270479537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because I like clearlooks) < 1270479538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But matrix mode is weird and pointless. < 1270479542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270479546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you compose in? < 1270479552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTATION < 1270479556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8| < 1270479559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're insane < 1270479565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :music notation is the worst thing ever invented < 1270479566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as Gregor said. A lot easier that way < 1270479571 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And/or actually a half-competent musician :P < 1270479585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also you record it mostly < 1270479600 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, yeah, I've got my digital piano plugged into my computer. < 1270479601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, something is /very/ wrong with Totem ATM < 1270479610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: heh, I used to use NOTATION when I was on Windows < 1270479613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then use some quantisise or whatever < 1270479617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what it was called < 1270479633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is this a nodepad joke? < 1270479637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270479638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure if you like, but music notation is still a really ugly way to look at the result < 1270479648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an actual program < 1270479654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not very good, but it's good /enough/ < 1270479656 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean unless piano music, then it's useful for playing sure < 1270479661 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually do use matrix mode when I just record midi raw (and so, not conforming to any tempo) and want to edit it. Otherwise I record in notation mode because I can actually read and understand it ... < 1270479679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has a few brilliant interface fails, such as making it very difficult to figure out how to set one clef to treble clef and a different clef to base clef < 1270479694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP DISAGREEING WITH MY INSANE OPINIONS < 1270479740 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270479743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet i've composed more music than you! (maybe not as much good music, but that's probably not relevant) < 1270479751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270479783 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That may or may not be true, I've thrown away vastly more music than I've kept. < 1270479807 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess when you make it that fine-grained, it all becomes meaningless :P < 1270479809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still the new GUI is completely awful. And it looks like three different people designed each half of it (!) without looking at each other's work. < 1270479810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during my whole two years of uni i think i've written like 4 songs or something :< i used to write one every few days at some point < 1270479824 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270479865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found where to change it < 1270479865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1270479866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i think the best measure is to measure the amount of measures < 1270479875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...ever written < 1270479876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remove thick in preferences for "use thorn style" < 1270479889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems to be the codename of this release or something < 1270479897 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :þorn < 1270479927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then does it count that i've written programs that generate random music and i've occasionally just let them generate hundreds of hours for funsies < 1270479942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAIT if that counts then http://codu.org/algorhythms/ < 1270479945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, huh, how did you manage to not make it play using the sound card? < 1270479946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270479963 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have an absurdly complicated system for recording via fluidsynth. < 1270479976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but that is a *.mid, not a *.rg < 1270479988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, rosegarden doesn't seem to be working with timidity on this computer < 1270479996 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, from rosegarden; it's all configurable somewhere ... < 1270480003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay something must be wrong on my side < 1270480004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270480006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: And more specifically, http://codu.org/music/auto/OUT-T5.ogg (IIRC the link) < 1270480055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it < 1270480059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sound font loaded < 1270480060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270480070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is supposed to happen in rc.local wonder what went wrong < 1270480084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fluidsynth is (way) better anyway (or at least, it would be if it wasn't hugely buggy) < 1270480102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, all I really care about is being able to hear the notes < 1270480134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea (on jaunty) how to run a custom command early on in boot. In fact it must be after the generic wireless stuff is loaded but before the specific driver for my wlan chipset is loaded. < 1270480140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so rc.local won't work < 1270480172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sb live 5.1 beats fluidsynth IMO < 1270480175 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Is it sufficient to just unload the driver, do whatever you need to, then reload the driver? < 1270480198 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, probably, but producing recordings of it is annoying (well, OK, same for fluidsynth ... ) < 1270480214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah but it takes a few seconds for the interface to come down, so I would need to add something like: rmmod iwlagn && sleep 4 && iw reg set SE && modprobe iwlang < 1270480217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwlagn* < 1270480218 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: last time I needed to do that I just added a script to init.d by hand, although I'm not sure that's the best way < 1270480234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it won't work right away < 1270480237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for unknown reason < 1270480262 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then you're screwzored. < 1270480263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why iw reg set can't take effect on already up interfaces < 1270480275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even down but with driver loaded < 1270480277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried that too < 1270480353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange; Timidity is working on its own, just not from Rosegarden, but Rosegarden says everything's fine with the MIDI < 1270480389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what game was it for? I don't think I asked that above, and if I did I either didn't get an answer or I didn't see the answer or I forgot it < 1270480424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I did ask it, but didn't get an answer as far as I can tell < 1270480425 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just a class project of a friend of a friend. < 1270480445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of a StarCraft ripoff :P < 1270480447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1270480449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270480470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, starcraft is rts right? < 1270480474 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270480477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that's completely computer generated? < 1270480485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've just heard a few of these < 1270480493 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: OUT-T5 is computer-generated notes, human-generated dynamics < 1270480502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1270480512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so what does that mean exactly? < 1270480514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why timidity? < 1270480519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe i should read the page < 1270480527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because I have it handy, for playing MIDI files < 1270480544 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It means that it's more of an exercise in proving how important the human factor in playing music is than an exercise in proving how well a simple algorithm can compose :P < 1270480554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Rosegarden's supposed to work out of the box < 1270480560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with it < 1270480563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1270480580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never got timidity to _not_ crash < 1270480581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did, on my last computer < 1270480587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... what does human-generated dynamics mean, you play something on the piano, and random notes are substitute? < 1270480587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the most unstable thing I ever seen < 1270480588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*d < 1270480617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, and it works fine from Totem < 1270480617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need technical details < 1270480642 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Google for a program called Tapper (maybe "tapper conductor program" or something like that) < 1270480657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fluidsynth is very nice to generate music files, but for playing midi directly I found it sometimes lags or such. So there I use the hardware synth on my sound card < 1270480669 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: With it, you take a MIDI file with no dynamics or tempo, and it reads the dynamics and tempo from playing on a digital piano, but uses the notes from the MIDI file. < 1270480701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, dynamics include everything except the which note is played? < 1270480703 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: So I, the informed viewer of the notation, play it how I think it should sound, but don't play the actual notes (as they're borderline-impossible). < 1270480728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, how hard or soft you hit the key, when the note is played, the length of it, and so on? < 1270480738 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically. < 1270480745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about the pedal? < 1270480782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well pedals I guess. But I was thinking of sustain mainly) < 1270480822 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1270480840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dynamics, right, i don't care about dynamics < 1270480846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270480868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that stuff arbitrarily, as long as it's consistent < 1270480874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and I have to say http://codu.org/music/auto/OUT-T5.ogg wasn't very good < 1270480878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no offence meant < 1270480883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OUT-T5 has its moments < 1270480898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's not themes, so it's sort of non-music < 1270480901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no < 1270480904 0 :alise!~alise@host86-138-199-235.range86-138.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270480907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moments of fits yes. < 1270480908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270480925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the listener needs a clear melody they analyze < 1270480927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can analyze < 1270480937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes indeed < 1270480960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Aye! < 1270481005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the usual listening process is as follows, you listen, write it on a matrix display in your head, try to find visual patterns, then hear those patterns in the music. < 1270481023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1270481028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1270481032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270481034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason that's enjoyable < 1270481103 0 :alise_!~alise@91.104.231.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270481111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Alex3012 < 1270481113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1270481115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise_ < 1270481117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1270481134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why the tab order was alise -> alex -> alise_ < 1270481136 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i wash the dishes and clean the apartment of just laze around the whole day < 1270481141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, last spoken < 1270481163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, some irc client is actually non-retarded enough to do that? < 1270481168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: many :P < 1270481175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, cleaning the apartment of just laze around for an entire day? < 1270481177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it that large? < 1270481194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've tried irssi, xchat and mirc and then something with a bird none of them did < 1270481202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, most clients can be set to do last spoken < 1270481208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and various webchats and other things i don't recall < 1270481212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat can definitely, pretty sure irssi can too < 1270481221 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: pidgin? < 1270481222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can", python can do it too < 1270481222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah I don't think it is default in xchat at least < 1270481226 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat can do it yeah < 1270481228 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a setting < 1270481228 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gives a fuck, they *don't do it* < 1270481230 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one flick to do < 1270481234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, as in, there is a simple setting < 1270481239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single checkbox or such < 1270481242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why isn't it on < 1270481244 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefs -> input box -> last spoken < 1270481250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 'cuz sometimes it's annoying < 1270481251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, because many people don't want that I guess? < 1270481254 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if i'm talking to awesome < 1270481255 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for hours < 1270481258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THOSE PEOPLE ARE WRONG < 1270481258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then suddenly asshole butts in < 1270481261 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i end up talking to asshole < 1270481274 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1270481276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm SHUT UP < 1270481285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you too fax < 1270481288 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1270481289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah jk < 1270481301 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to shut up < 1270481310 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it helps < 1270481318 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to agree with me on something, i'm getting tired of being different < 1270481318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, like: "a, you are an a person." and if "asshat" joins in between those two tab completes... < 1270481328 0 :deschutron!~alex@219-90-213-238.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1270481332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270481346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a great real life example < 1270481349 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you are an asshat person. < 1270481355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ you're an alise_ person < 1270481371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yeah you can get mistakes like that < 1270481380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it should be that I'm an awesome person < 1270481384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax is a fax person < 1270481385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270481401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I know the example is far fetched! < 1270481404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means frequent teleporter < 1270481469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm almost done with my bachelor's, and then i find the last algo i was gonna write up is completely wrong in the paper, and a lot of what i've written already uses it. < 1270481478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1270481505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well assuming it's not my mistake, probably the case is that there's a simple way to fix it < 1270481527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it's wrong, but the problem is the author probably didn't have the algo wrong, but just explained it wrong < 1270481554 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270481565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would explain it but what the algo does is a bit random without context < 1270481605 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :final year research project eh? < 1270481664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bachelor's, the first research project, not my own research, i basically just have to find sources and copypaste (in such a way that it shows the material went through my brain). < 1270481672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my second year < 1270481673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll < 1270481731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is i decided to read straight from journals and these papers are full of mistakes i only recently find myself having the skill to correct. which is a bit of a complicated sentence i guess < 1270481739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not < 1270481746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not that many mistakes actually < 1270481748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1270481871 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I didn't write it, so I don't care what you think :P < 1270481907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i liked the notes but the dynamics sucked ass! < 1270481915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sobblecopter* :P < 1270481922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about rhythm < 1270481925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that yours? < 1270481929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1270481934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...because that was pretty good too < 1270481938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270481966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoppe tiem. < 1270481972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~> < 1270481978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait maybe not just yet < 1270482034 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~~~~~~~~> < 1270482054 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270482385 0 :deschutron!~alex@114-30-116-165.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1270482462 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1270482547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay now really shoppe tiem < 1270482615 0 :adu_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu_ < 1270482840 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270482939 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270483217 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270483459 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270484029 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270484039 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270484174 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270484389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270484730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:23 < benmachine> besides which there are languages which are deliberately obnoxious < 1270484734 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:23 < EvanR-work> right < 1270484736 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:24 < Jafet> PLEASE DO NAME ONE < 1270484792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which channel? I recognise Jafet from #nethack < 1270484804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge's probably the best example of a deliberately obnoxious lang, though < 1270484815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recognize jafet from people pasting what he's said < 1270484849 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270484870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell < 1270484882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe there too < 1270484959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: did you reply? < 1270484960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: then why not also put the undynamic'd versions up? < 1270484976 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270484977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you do < 1270485000 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I jost hjojddd < 1270485032 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait maybe you don't < 1270485066 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270485107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1270485119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270485166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is defining the reals via continued fractions in coq < 1270485337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call me 0400243514 and whatever thing finland has, i can't find my cellphone, won't answer < 1270485359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be something like +358 prolly < 1270485436 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: who, me? < 1270485436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Callerying. < 1270485443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o---:) < 1270485444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever < 1270485444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1270485448 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up the dailing code < 1270485451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want called < 1270485454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late < 1270485456 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want called < 1270485460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie called < 1270485465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you < 1270485467 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's +358 < 1270485473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what only one call accepted? < 1270485475 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone want to talk on a phone?????? < 1270485479 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also good, now i can harrass you if i come to helsinki < 1270485488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought since I was in the same country, I'd best call just in case you were lying about the "no answer" thing. < 1270485493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no one, cell phones are clocks you can find by calling them. < 1270485502 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270485514 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270485525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The number's on the first google-hit anyway, so no great loss there. < 1270485534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270485556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i don't mind if you call me < 1270485572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the fucking shoppe -> < 1270485612 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh won't answer < 1270485614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1270485617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1270485623 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've talked to you on skype that is enough for one lifetime < 1270485624 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270485667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the idea of having trouble finding your phone, and asking someone in another country over IRC to phone it so you can locate it < 1270485728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is something so modern-international about that < 1270486016 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270486207 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270486347 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270486780 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: They're there. < 1270486806 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's Onerously Uptight Toccata < 1270486811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Hence "OUT" < 1270486900 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270486935 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270486940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270486981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it was actually played? < 1270487053 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270487333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Sort of :P < 1270487365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link < 1270487572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/music/auto/OUT-T5.ogg < 1270487582 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was "played" with Tapper, so I played the dynamics and tempo, not the notes. < 1270487661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270487689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it < 1270487776 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tapper is a program that takes a MIDI file and lets you play the dynamics and tempo on a digital piano, replacing the notes you play with those from the original MIDI. < 1270487785 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when it's wildly impossible to play, you can still play it :P < 1270487998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you have a gift for naming autogenerated music < 1270488016 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random-adverb random-adjective random-type-of-music. < 1270488019 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, quite the gift. < 1270488054 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270488068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270488078 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the name is autogenerated too though :P < 1270488078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you manage to pick particularly amusing random choices < 1270488093 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where by "you", you mean "rand()" :P < 1270488100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: heh, then he has a gift for amusing random number generators < 1270488106 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. < 1270488172 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270488379 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270488447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i've done it before, it's always either a finn who calls or no one :< < 1270488462 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once someone tried to call me who was not in finland, but it didn't work < 1270488494 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270488497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ah < 1270488841 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i can tryyyy < 1270488842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you'll answer. < 1270488866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will then < 1270488909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okayyyyyyyyyyyyy what is the number againyyyyyyyyyyy < 1270488926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0400243514 < 1270488945 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i need to get skype downloaded < 1270489017 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270489135 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: boarding < 1270489213 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i seriously hope you don't actually do it... :P) < 1270489405 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1270489429 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because phone calls are scary < 1270489458 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270491340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will be so cool i could... < 1270491341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :submarine it < 1270491638 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is alarmingly tired < 1270491949 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270494209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guyez < 1270494210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a function < 1270494213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/904126.txt?key=dmlvdatdbqpi68fo3gwjg < 1270494263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/904128.txt?key=x8d87tccpvmsig80c46r3w here's the auxiliary proof i used < 1270494271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally by hand i swear < 1270494340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fucking beautiful man < 1270494449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Hmm. For a second there I was going "wait, it's Monday... What's he doing here..." XD < 1270494477 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why's that funny < 1270494501 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sorry to disappoint you man but this is what i actually wrote http://pastie.org/904133.txt?key=sgwgk3z0vdxdip61onraow < 1270494508 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conclusion: computers are better at writing progams than humans < 1270494509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*progams < 1270494512 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programs < 1270494540 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that omega is one wild-ass beast, you're in a proof right and it's to do with numbers right < 1270494542 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you type omega < 1270494545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you press '.' < 1270494552 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it spits out something like http://pastie.org/904128.txt?key=x8d87tccpvmsig80c46r3w < 1270494556 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and WHAMM totally proved man < 1270494559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: that's pretty too, but not nearly as. < 1270494568 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually we'll just have OmegaCoq < 1270494578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Unit-ness. < 1270494580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem riemannhypothesis : blah blah blah. < 1270494582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega. < 1270494583 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1270494594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: of course i mean why is it funny that you thought that i mean it's an obvious thing to think :P < 1270494594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270494608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1270494613 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION defines rational and irrational : R -> Prop < 1270494647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear wait i need the continued fraction part to be optional < 1270494708 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION defines sqrt(2) < 1270494795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program CoFixpoint twos : CF := step 2 _ twos. < 1270494797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 is not 0? < 1270494799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proved beyotch < 1270494807 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program is beautiful < 1270494827 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition sqrt2 : R := real 1 (Some twos). < 1270494829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah some twos < 1270494831 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just some of 'em < 1270494836 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity of them to be precise < 1270494864 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/904145.txt?key=jynafvfiitwk3wphbwoqfq < 1270494870 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's what i need to do to prove that sqrt(2) is irrational < 1270494935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay could we do as follows, you stop talking about coq till i learn it? < 1270494976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no :D < 1270494982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, the wildcard' stuff makes no fucking sense to me either < 1270494986 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just coinduction wizardry... < 1270495005 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously you should learn coq though, i'm pretty sure i could prove anything... even that the world is flat < 1270495008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how awesome it is < 1270495029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you actually proven anything nontrivial? < 1270495043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(2) irrational is like elementary school biology homework < 1270495064 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, he's not even shown that it's sqrt(2) < 1270495162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no :P < 1270495166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm only doing this < 1270495169 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to test my reals < 1270495172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :via continued fractions < 1270495177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program CoFixpoint twos : CF := step 2 _ twos. < 1270495177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition sqrt2 : R := real 1 (Some twos). < 1270495177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem sqrt2_irrational : irrational sqrt2. < 1270495177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intro i. < 1270495177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : induction i. < 1270495178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : simpl; auto. < 1270495180 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assumption. < 1270495184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1270495185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes i didn't even prove it's the square root of two < 1270495188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no... arithmetic, as such < 1270495210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: okay lulz. i just glance at the codes to assess their prettiness. < 1270495211 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also, biology? < 1270495225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah biology, it's so easy it doesn't even need to be *math* homework < 1270495232 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopl im mad at alise for being a dick to me < 1270495251 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she was a dick to you? < 1270495255 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax thinks i'm a dick because i was talking to him then he demanded that i use his automatic primality prover before i do anything else < 1270495263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then he said if i don't do it right now she won't talk to me any more < 1270495265 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*she < 1270495268 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking pronouns and irc < 1270495275 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I didn't, then she stopped talking to me < 1270495295 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are so short sighted alise that has nothing to do with it < 1270495308 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: it's not what you said, it's the way you said it < 1270495332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn < 1270495342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S FUNNY TO ME < 1270495351 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i'm mad at her too now < 1270495367 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fermatslasttheorem.blogspot.com/2006/05/basic-properties-of-cyclotomic.html < 1270495370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: to be quite honest i am completely uninterested in talking to you if that involves continually doing exactly what you tell me to do before doing anything else < 1270495377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let that be the end of it < 1270495435 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270495512 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no howso < 1270496048 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case anyone cares, the interpreter part of the interpreter was a bit easier than I thought it would be < 1270496062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still need to make some tweaks though, but it can run Hello world < 1270496260 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270497130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1270497134 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq needs smarter pattern matching < 1270497250 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270497396 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270497401 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, I ought to fix FlogScript uses all bcmath but I don't know the best way < 1270497440 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-143.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270497540 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-189.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270497567 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270497640 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: more awesome noise: http://pastie.org/904213.txt?key=xwcjbezd3bn5212tsa0xwa < 1270497882 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270497984 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270498171 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got coq to print out "Anomaly. Please report." < 1270498219 0 :atrapado!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270498494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270498662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : nat < 1270498662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n : nat < 1270498662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wildcard' : n <> 0 < 1270498662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cf' : CF < 1270498662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : rational (real H (Some (step n wildcard' cf'))) < 1270498664 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270498665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists n0 : nat, rational (real n0 (Some cf')) < 1270498667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1270498674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was /not/ the issue i was expecting with this function < 1270498696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : rational (real H (Some (step n wildcard' cf'))) < 1270498696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270498696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rational (real n (Some cf')) < 1270498722 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i'm having to prove that a continued fraction is rational, given that the same fraction plus one extra term is rational < 1270498738 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem arises if we expand what rational is shorthand for: < 1270498741 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists i : nat, is_None (a_Sn i (real n (Some cf'))) < 1270498751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a_Sn is a rather complex recursive function. < 1270498798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : is_None (a_Sn x (real H (Some (step n wildcard' cf')))) < 1270498799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270498799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is_None (a_Sn (pred x) (real n (Some cf'))) < 1270498800 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should be easier < 1270498998 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rejiggles is_Some and is_None a bit to make things easier < 1270499573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye for a bit < 1270499575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jiggles? < 1270499577 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1270499589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270501231 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270501489 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270501803 0 :oobe!~hell@insidiousramblings.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270501952 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270502045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oobe: It's spelled "oboe" < 1270502072 0 :oobe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i know how to spell my own name < 1270502204 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, you shall now become the new pooppy (coppro) in my head :P. How about ... carlinet. < 1270502328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is oobe an actual norwegian name`? < 1270502329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1270502383 0 :oobe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1270502393 0 :oobe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just my nick i use < 1270502423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry didn't notice your name is actually ascii pr0n < 1270502439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1270502445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270502455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're too short < 1270502465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't get a body < 1270502465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1270502469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1270502469 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :          | < 1270502469 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :          |\ < 1270502484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270503126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I see the pr0n interpretation very well. < 1270503154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a complicated joke. < 1270503780 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270504511 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270504832 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270504934 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270505224 0 :tombom__!~tombom@86.25.52.173 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270505257 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270505305 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270505997 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270506398 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270506587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :george carlinet < 1270506847 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270506964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270506971 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270506972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270506982 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1270507095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone wanna do my proof for me < 1270507152 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise it's because you don't listen to me < 1270507167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1270507396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270507418 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270507532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270507536 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270507558 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1270507569 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MISSING: One underscore < 1270507571 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REWARD: $0 < 1270507773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : is_None (a_Sn x (real H (Some (step n wildcard' cf')))) < 1270507773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : x <> 0 < 1270507774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270507774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists i : nat, is_None (a_Sn i (real n (Some cf'))) < 1270507774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a start < 1270507804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270507852 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270508037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : is_None (CF_a_Sn x (step n wildcard' cf')) < 1270508038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : x <> 0 < 1270508038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1270508038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is_None (CF_a_Sn (safe_pred x H1) cf') < 1270508041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should honestly be really trivial :P < 1270508125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tricky because it's not entirely clear from the definition of rational that you can traverse the (potentially infinite) list and reach an ending... < 1270508127 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1270508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program Fixpoint Q_of_rational_CF (cf : CF) (H : exists n, rational (real n (Some cf))) : Q := < 1270508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match cf with < 1270508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | final n _ => Q_of_nat n < 1270508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | step n _ cf' => Q_of_nat n + 1 / Q_of_rational_CF cf' _ < 1270508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end % Q. < 1270508133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the entire function < 1270508141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole complexity is that tiny _ in the Q_of_rational_CF recursive call < 1270508145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a bloody proof < 1270508163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270508167 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270508187 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270508283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270508295 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270508402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I'm stuck! < 1270508487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm? < 1270508498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to do this proof < 1270508595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/904537.txt?key=rqxoszxqfg7nkfvbf8jwa < 1270508609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can think of Yet Another definition for rational/irrational that makes this easier < 1270508627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not based on the hugely complicated CF_a_Sn function < 1270508667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ... no < 1270508669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need CF_a_Sn to access elements < 1270508729 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I failed to win Agora because I was inactive < 1270508920 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270509007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to play with some worms < 1270509115 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270509203 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270509605 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270510087 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270510093 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270510246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i presume the computerised sort < 1270510341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nobody loves me, everybody hates me. Think I'll go and eat worms!" < 1270510394 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270510459 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, there was an accident and every active player won Agora < 1270510593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's some wonderful noise: http://pastie.org/904583.txt?key=bg0znn8ou1ynm5vozuag < 1270510594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything after exist (fun m : nat => m <> S n0) n0 < 1270510602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a computer-generated proof that... drumroll... n is not S n < 1270510609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually gets cut off: < 1270510611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (fun .. => .. < 1270510611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .. < 1270510612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .. < 1270510612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .. < 1270510612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end) I 0%Z Omega19 in < 1270510614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for being too absurdly long to display < 1270510643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you imagine a proof of that identity even remotely as advanced before COMPUTERS???? < 1270510654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270510691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/904585.txt?key=5ijpll8mfjaxlpcn9wthq < 1270510695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this definition is also acceptable. < 1270510930 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270511754 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-69.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270511861 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270512323 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270512787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has created a Linux distro less featureful than DOS. Hooray. < 1270512815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1270512871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was curious how silly-small I could get something. < 1270512897 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, that's exactly what she said. < 1270512906 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, just have a kernel with no userland, that'll be small :P < 1270512974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Close. < 1270513120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatorial explosion of linux distros/penises < 1270513187 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1270513578 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what did you come up with? < 1270513628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently at 344 kIb... < 1270513647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It possesses the following programs: /bin/sh, /bin/clear. < 1270513652 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270513667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its kernel has the following features: initramfs, ELF support. < 1270513673 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why /bin/clear? < 1270513693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, the BIOS text doesn't get cleared in Qemu. < 1270513699 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tragic :P < 1270513702 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270513726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope /bin/clear is a shell script ... < 1270513727 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I would have to say sh makes it more feature rich than dos < 1270513744 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite possibly < 1270513760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Heavily, heavily pared down shell. < 1270513761 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait, echo isn't built into sh, is it :P ... so /bin/clear couldn't be a shell script probably. < 1270513764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat is pretty useful too ... < 1270513771 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kernel? < 1270513776 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6? < 1270513780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.31 ATM. < 1270513789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may experiment with other kernels. < 1270513789 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, didn't realzie 2.6 could get that small < 1270513800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though 2.6 has the nice feature that you can *compile in the initramfs*. < 1270513810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a bunch of "tiny" patches to 2.6 that help downsize it. < 1270513825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those tiny patches were put into the main tree a while back. < 1270513838 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORLY? < 1270513839 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet. < 1270513850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to compare compression formats for the initramfs... < 1270513851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it just takes some special .config frunging. < 1270513886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be at the point where the compression overhead of LZMA negates the benefits for the filesystem. :P < 1270513893 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need now is to add egobfi < 1270513900 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-D < 1270513909 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much does TCC cost? < 1270513910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1270513920 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but eh, headers >_> < 1270513933 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the world's smallest scripting language that borders on usable? :P < 1270513933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :339 KB without compressing the root filesystem. < 1270513942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh. < 1270513942 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyhow, impressive.. could boot that off a 5 1/4" floppy :) < 1270513967 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I missed something, but does that 339K /include/ the kernel? < 1270513989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the FS, which actually sounded pretty big for sh and clear :P < 1270514029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes. < 1270514032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of busybox can you stuff in before you can't boot from a floppy? < 1270514040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of it. < 1270514048 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL THEN GET STUFFING < 1270514056 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: tomsrtbt < 1270514070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: That's ancient, and has ancient utils, things tend to grow over time :P < 1270514081 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW: What is maximum one can put into floppy (using normal 1.44M floppy drive)? < 1270514083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. I'm going to go check and see if dietlibc and manual-built dash gets me a smaller shell. :P < 1270514083 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, isn't it a superformatted floppy? < 1270514090 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: 2.88M < 1270514090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wormtube.worms2d.info/?id=4 [some NSFW language] < 1270514095 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I think you can get like 2 mb < 1270514102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a man page somewhere which goes into ridiculous difficulty < 1270514107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ridiculous detail < 1270514113 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BTW: What is maximum one can put into floppy (using normal 1.44M floppy drive)? <-- this question should be stupid, and yet it's not ... < 1270514118 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My first computer had 2.88M floppy drive... :-) < 1270514122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking about things like interleaving sectors, and forcing the drive head past the normal limits < 1270514131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which might break your drive, or might give you an extra couple of tracks) < 1270514141 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 2.88? wow.. so there must be no error correction at all? < 1270514163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Actually, floppy drives are just horribly overengineered. < 1270514165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even today. < 1270514185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270514197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaw, with dietlibc I can only get the shell down to 96k. :( < 1270514201 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drives, maybe.. but the media, no < 1270514206 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the I/O interface supports up to 255 sectors and 256 tracks (but only up to two sides). < 1270514209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: By the time floppies died, most floppy drives supported 2.88MB, there just were no 2.88MB disks ... < 1270514224 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yeah but he said standard 1.44 hehe < 1270514227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(currently, my busybox is down to 72k.) < 1270514240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: I assume "1.44M" means "3 1/4 in" :P < 1270514257 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good quality 1.44MB disks formatted as 2.88MB without bad sectors (and appeared to work). < 1270514269 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I'm going to (quickly) overengineer "clear". < 1270514274 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, 90mm. :-) < 1270514327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem-hem! Everybody quiet, it's ANNOUNCEMENT TIME. http://iki.fi/deewiant/ < 1270514328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing: CCBI 2.0, at long last. Along with the usual Mycology update on the side. Too tired to build non-x86-64 bins now, but will do so. < 1270514331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: Fungicide, the Befunge-98 benchmark suite! < 1270514333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CCBI 2.0 completes it in about one-fifteenth of the time that cfunge does. SO YEAH. AnMaster: macro-optimization > micro-optimization.) < 1270514336 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally: I am tired, and am going to bed. Complaints can be directed to /dev/null. -> < 1270514339 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you were. < 1270514459 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized something silly. An ordinary key has 48 keys used for typing ASCII; 47 of these each can type two characters, and the remaining one (the space bar) just types one. < 1270514507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*keyboard < 1270514513 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite right. < 1270514520 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because there are 95 ascii characters < 1270514522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shift key determines which of the two characters a key types. < 1270514529 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks confusedly at his tab key < 1270514537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -c clear < 1270514538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :55 clear < 1270514539 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess technically, the backspace, enter, tab, etc. keys type ASCII. < 1270514546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. clear overengineered. < 1270514557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you installed echo, you could replace clear with an echo-based version for much fewer bytes. < 1270514570 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I meant the 95 printable ASCII characters, of course. < 1270514571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But echo involves a larger shell. < 1270514577 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smallest executable you can make is 45 bytes < 1270514587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Well aware. < 1270514598 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Guh? < 1270514608 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to make a smaller executable. < 1270514621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: echo is only a shell builtin in busybox. And you can remove it. < 1270514632 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm of course that's assuming elf < 1270514643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch blih; chmod +x blih; ./blih;. Which doesn't count, of course. < 1270514646 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was before elf? < 1270514646 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, but you'll gain a lot with echo ... such as the ability to do anything useful at all :P < 1270514656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: COFF < 1270514658 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Then a.out < 1270514661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Your point? < 1270514668 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how small could coff get < 1270514674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Ask Windows. < 1270514680 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1270514684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything that was just machine code? < 1270514691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: DOS COM files < 1270514695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it would be plausible to make a platform where all executables are shell scripts. < 1270514704 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah .com was the ultimate < 1270514704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, that would require the kernel to have a built-in shell. < 1270514706 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, more accurately, it's just "throw this crap in memory" < 1270514709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hey. Busybox has a smaller shell. < 1270514731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interactive execution is optional. < 1270514734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would happen if you renamed a .exe to .com ? < 1270514735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Throw-this-crap-in-memory works best when you can do relative jumps, I imagine. < 1270514742 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Which is to say, the correct way to load a DOS COM file is to copy it into memory at 0, then jump to a predefined point. < 1270514751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know what DOS .exe files are, but they're not raw. < 1270514755 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: depends on the exe < 1270514764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably not dissimilar to a.out < 1270514780 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exe's have memory segment information < 1270514781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Support if/then/elif/else/fi" < 1270514789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now *there's* a useless feature if ever I saw one. < 1270514790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We [some computer specialty summer camp kids] were at this lab, and someone was showing us "how to mess up the computer" < 1270514804 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He showed removing the registry entry that tells Explorer how to open .exe files < 1270514815 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270514821 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone actually followed the instructions on one of the computers. < 1270514853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fix it by using Start->Run to open command.com, and from there opening regedit.exe < 1270514861 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, .com files load at 0x0100 (there are some information structures in first 256 bytes of segment it is loaded to). Entrypoint offset is 0x0100. < 1270514863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then copying the relevant entries from a good computer < 1270514876 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: yep < 1270514891 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the guy who messed up the computer in the first place is all "He [the guy who gave the instructions] could have done it." < 1270514895 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My memory of useless binary formats is slightly bitrotted. < 1270514903 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could hack a headerless executable format into the kernel < 1270514903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64K busybox < 1270514905 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The guy who gave the instructions wanted to rename regedit.exe to regedit.com < 1270514905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270514908 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs command.com and finds that it works. < 1270514925 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there similar registry entry for .com? < 1270514939 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I think so, but it was untouched by these instructions < 1270514948 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can try exe2bin ;) < 1270514954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :62240 busybox <-- without echo 62240 busybox <-- with echo. < 1270514965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/ < 1270514974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then. echo uses no space, so I'm satisifed. < 1270514989 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echo.. uses no space..? < 1270514989 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some malware uses that EXE registry entry (but I haven't heard of using COM entry yet). < 1270515005 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a look at the files it compiled.. might have some other freebies in there like true and false < 1270515043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Somehow. < 1270515048 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270515054 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.zip < 1270515064 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. What's the extension of the filename foo.bar.baz? < 1270515069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it baz or bar.baz? < 1270515074 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instructions: T to display level description text. Arrows or vi keys to move. < 1270515081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: baz < 1270515081 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In Windows, just "baz" < 1270515104 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instructions: R to reset, numpad -/+ to prev/next < 1270515114 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top row is inventory row. < 1270515125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That slightly implies that if a file is just named "foo", its extension is "foo". < 1270515129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm going to guess it has something to do with padding. < 1270515139 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo that looks cool!! < 1270515150 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I can see that, but at least Windows treats as no extension in that case < 1270515158 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can't play it < 1270515161 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that game is huge. < 1270515163 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the graphics though < 1270515165 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX doesn't care about extensions, o it is OK < 1270515181 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo did you make them < 1270515187 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That game is not finish yet I will add in more objects and levels more later < 1270515192 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should install windows so I can play this < 1270515196 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I didn't make the graphics I found icons in various things < 1270515197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Context makes you confusing. < 1270515199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270515201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: That's what wine is for < 1270515205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not pikhq! < 1270515208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm discussing how echo takes no extra space in Busybox. < 1270515219 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: btw sometimes -Os isn't the smallest, try -O3 < 1270515232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes that that .GMD file is not needed. < 1270515235 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: You can use Wine or you can do it a different way by converting the GMD (although no such program exists yet, but I have started writing it) < 1270515236 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it probably got compiled anyways < 1270515245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :333 kib! < 1270515249 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .GMD is the source-file, you don't need it to run < 1270515260 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what files is busybox compiling? < 1270515292 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or possibly I might later re-write a similar engine in C so that it can be cross-platform < 1270515297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make a version with a volume control? This computer doesn't have one. < 1270515299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Not many. < 1270515301 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make the same game using that < 1270515310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't have an exact figure, though. < 1270515315 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do any of them look like linux commands? < 1270515333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably get things down by passing the whole thing to the compiler at once. < 1270515336 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say GNU commands shouldn't I < 1270515337 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270515339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (CCBI 2.0 completes it in about one-fifteenth of the time that cfunge does. SO YEAH. AnMaster: macro-optimization > micro-optimization.) < 1270515339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270515339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uber < 1270515339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snappeth < 1270515474 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so much snap I've got ropeburn. < 1270515577 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: on level 2, how come you have to go down and get the key before you can go through the door? < 1270515599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the idea that you're only allowed to make one attempt every fifteen seconds? < 1270515661 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270515686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does "because the door is locked" strike you? :P < 1270515704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't answer my question; it just leaves me wondering why the door is locked. < 1270515753 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: man 4 fd < 1270515780 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270515781 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is becausey ou need the key < 1270515786 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is obvious, isn't it? < 1270515797 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/fd0u1920 < 1270515799 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no idea of attempt < 1270515799 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not obvious why that locked door is there. < 1270515817 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time I hear "ow!", that's one attempt. < 1270515818 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This game is turn-based only, not time-based. The only reason the door is there is to practice to use the key/door < 1270515845 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much practice do you think I need? It's pretty obvious how to do it; once I do it once, I don't need to do it three more times. < 1270515886 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just once. The other three times are completely different kind of puzzles having to do with key < 1270515903 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like it, skip that level (push numpad + sign) < 1270515915 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have to go get the key multiple times on level 2 if I want to pass that level. < 1270515935 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should also say something else: You can push F5/F6 to quicksave/quickload < 1270515952 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that changes things. < 1270515964 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorry I didn't tell you that before < 1270515985 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270515997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what game < 1270516047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You can check the log if you don't know what game? < 1270516072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can, yes < 1270516190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What game? < 1270516218 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you can check the log if you don't know? < 1270516227 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.zip (arrow or vi move, R reset, numpad -/+ prev/next, F5/F6 qsave/qload) < 1270516231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY < 1270516235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not fair < 1270516237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to work for it < 1270516253 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry I just posted now because enough people ask < 1270516257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1270516261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm being silly < 1270516265 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody else could also have posted the same message < 1270516282 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz i'm a funny dude < 1270516350 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are the absolutely essential features of a linux shell? starting programs and globbing? < 1270516374 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Perhaps also environment variables < 1270516378 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, who needs globbing. < 1270516390 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: echo * < 1270516397 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you don't need ls < 1270516398 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270516407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just use ls. :P < 1270516411 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hum, are environment variables really a shell thing? < 1270516420 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls actually does some additional things too like ls -l and ls -la and so on < 1270516434 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: of course :) < 1270516443 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, environment variables are a shell thing because no program can set environment variables of their parent process < 1270516481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you don't have the "set" command to list all environment variables you still need to be able to set value of individual environment variables < 1270516491 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the env program can set environment variables for its child even if you can't set them in the shell. < 1270516524 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say create a glob program and use backticks.. but backticks aren't free either < 1270516533 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then, if that is how you want, so. < 1270516561 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there is a glob call.. include glob.h hehe < 1270516609 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how big is your busybox < 1270516636 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you think that's an awfully personal question? < 1270516637 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270516651 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270516942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: 64k < 1270516970 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad at all! were you able to include any more executables after looking at the compiles? < 1270516978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1270517004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to find a smaller shell. < 1270517023 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270517027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need diagonal movement in level 2? < 1270517043 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if you compile without the shell, how big is it? < 1270517075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Uh... 0k, I'd imagine? < 1270517078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... All I have. < 1270517089 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have echo < 1270517097 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do i? < 1270517103 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: There is no diagonal movement. < 1270517106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1270517109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1270517113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just left up right down < 1270517129 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This game is orthogonal movement only. (If there is any extra controls you need, they will be described in the level description (push T)) < 1270517154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still trying to find a smaller shell. ;) < 1270517170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Actually... < 1270517192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How small is Tcl? < 1270517221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just roll your own shell. < 1270517229 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while (true) + strtok + fork + execl = bad shell < 1270517272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1270517285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tempting. < 1270517286 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shsh.. short for shit shell < 1270517289 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot about fgets ... < 1270517301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while (true) + fgets + strtok + fork + execl < 1270517314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hell, so long as it's an intentionally terrible shell, use gets :P < 1270517318 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+glob < 1270517323 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270517336 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :globbing is for pussies, real men remember all the files they have and type out the names. < 1270517367 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is whether you can make it smaller by excluding libc and using int 0x80 calls < 1270517370 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you are trying to write a shell using as small codes as possible that's OK I suppose < 1270517394 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: You can try writing in asm or machine-codes and see if you can do that < 1270517396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Probably. < 1270517404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, my libc is pretty darned small. < 1270517405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, FORTH is an idea. FORTH doesn't have to be big ... < 1270517411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: okay i'm giving up at level 2 < 1270517426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm. < 1270517433 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well the thing is that executables are slightly bigger when they have to use libc < 1270517438 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Try the other level then (push -/+ numpad) < 1270517440 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the fourth programming language you learned? < 1270517465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ... lesse ... do different dialects of BASIC count as different languages? < 1270517474 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if they are called FORTH < 1270517481 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........... < 1270517494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Yeah, but not by much. Particularly when you have a decent libc. < 1270517507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION enjoy his uclibc cross-compiler. < 1270517508 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm 1) gwbasic, 2) quickbasic extended 3) x86 asm 4) c? < 1270517511 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may have been logo < 1270517527 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn you're right.. logo is in there < 1270517533 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could've been logo for me too, that was the first thing that came to mind. < 1270517539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 < 1270517539 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm 1) gwbasic, 2) quickbasic extended 3) logo 4) x86 asm < 1270517542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| < 1270517544 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know if it was logo or AVR ASM < 1270517551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does the anarchy golf when you access a file in ../ it accesses /dev/ directory but if you use cd ../ it works correctly?? < 1270517554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one knows logo < 1270517570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you probably aren't one to give hintss? < 1270517572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hints < 1270517573 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know logo < 1270517580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone knows logo < 1270517586 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1270517588 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: What hint did you want? < 1270517593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW IS 2 SOLVED :p < 1270517595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has heard of logo, but that's pretty much it < 1270517600 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember writing a spirograph program in it in class and getting a few minutes of fame followed by years of nerd hell < 1270517606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably actually play the game < 1270517609 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari hahaha < 1270517617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nerd hell? < 1270517624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably rewrite the game in JavaScript. < 1270517626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's what I do. < 1270517630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rewrite things in JavaScript. < 1270517637 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor that would mean I could play it !!! < 1270517640 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Which part are you stuck on? < 1270517653 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Play http://sibeli.us/ instead. < 1270517660 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have I didn't like it :( < 1270517670 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're like pushing buttons in time I can't do that < 1270517673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it made me ill < 1270517673 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should write a game that the makers of the game don't know how to solve, but know it's solvable < 1270517694 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I have in fact done that. < 1270517701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there's not that much to get stuck on, i have no keys left when i get to the room with the rocks, and there's no way to get the key without them falling and blocking the exit < 1270517710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, with this game, or a different game? < 1270517714 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many times. < 1270517732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You need the arrow in the other room to block the stones falling < 1270517736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I found a more... complete shell that's about 72k. < 1270517747 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, not this game. A different game (actually multiple different games) < 1270517751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah i was just thinking i might actually try using them for something < 1270517758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. 60k if I use dietlibc. < 1270517765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I <3 dietlibc. < 1270517784 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270517793 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You can also push the stones left/right < 1270517800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1270517802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look mah, I've got tar! < 1270517818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah okay it's really obvious now, i just, for some reason, completely dismissed the ball and the arrow < 1270517829 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What a sticky situation HYUK HYUK < 1270517839 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grogor did you make sibelius < 1270517843 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a game I made but I don't know how to solve but I know it is solvable: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/MUTCHNAM.ZIP < 1270517845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I assume you have tar without gz or whatnot. < 1270517849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm. More features in less space, or fewer features. Tricky. < 1270517851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes. < 1270517855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is still trying to figure out what the card suites are for < 1270517857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disabled the builtin gzip. < 1270517857 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What a hilarious statement when you don't make it clear that you're referring to sibeli.us :P < 1270517858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: dietlibc's author is a nutjob who GPL-licensed it so MS don't steal his code :( so distros can't use it as a libc < 1270517863 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: But yes, I wrote that code. < 1270517868 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry :((( < 1270517869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't redistribute non-gpl software linked with dietlibc < 1270517872 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize this < 1270517879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, that's my only issue with dietlibc. < 1270517884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty big issue < 1270517895 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Did you push "T" at the first level it will explain you need to get four suits, please. < 1270517900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that's not *entirely* true. You can redistribute anything "gpl-compatible" linked with dietlibc. < 1270517905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This includes 3-clause BSD. < 1270517910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: whole thing is GPL now) < 1270517912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just never managed to play these kinds of game, the music/timing type < 1270517921 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Thought I had to get to the peace thing < 1270517923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, that limits dietlibc's usage a lot. < 1270517930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: This exists mainly as a hilariously bad idea for such a game :P < 1270517944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diet i386-linux-uclibc-gcc *.c -Os --combine -fwhole-program -DHAVE_GZIP=0 -DHAVE_LINUX_ATTR=0 -DHAVE_LINUX_MOUNT=0 -DMOUNT_TYPE=\"ext3\" -o sash < 1270517948 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes you do but you need 4 suits < 1270517951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now *there's* a build command. :) < 1270517961 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shows the inventory row on the top < 1270517970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need no mount! I need no chattr! I need no gzip! < 1270518011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is there a way to restart the game < 1270518033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have a numlock + so i can't really just restart the game and replay till 3rd level every time < 1270518037 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Push R key < 1270518044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1270518047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Push -/+ to skip levels < 1270518056 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or use P/N if you don't have numpad -/+ < 1270518057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't do anything < 1270518061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1270518066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I move on diagonals? < 1270518075 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No. Orthogonal only. < 1270518089 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't QUITE understand the logic of the stone < 1270518096 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wwwhat was the point of level 3 :D < 1270518099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also save/load at any time by pushing F5/F6. < 1270518110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many levels are there? < 1270518128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No much yet, but it will have a lot more levels and more objects later. < 1270518138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i have a number, i have to decide whether to play them all < 1270518150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to do something i consider more useful < 1270518157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does NOT understand how the stone decides to move < 1270518170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go near it and move once or soemthing like that? < 1270518172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1270518197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going near it does not always cause it to move < 1270518206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1270518207 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It is like Hero Hearts or PC Wanderer if you have played it. Whenever anything departs from a space up to 1 left/right from it and up to 2 down (but not up) it will fall < 1270518245 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You can skip levels if you want. (And remember to push T it displays useful (or sometimes useless) information and level code. Push F and type in the level code to skip immediately to that level. < 1270518260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I walk into that space and then move, that's when it falls < 1270518267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So above it is a blind spot < 1270518269 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270518273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so '8 < 1270518274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*8 < 1270518289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit too much, i'll mention if i do it some other time < 1270518321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Sgeo part of the puzzle if to figure out the rules < 1270518324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1270518328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :/ < 1270518329 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrows and balloons move in a similar way to stones but a different direction < 1270518331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1270518332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least imo < 1270518339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how well upx works on Linux kernels < 1270518352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "no longer". < 1270518377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why they're interactive, so the rules need not be stated < 1270518381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno < 1270518430 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Level code EHQN is the first level that has additional controls that you have to use (push T it will tell you what they are) < 1270518537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it! < 1270518718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(These lambda-terms cannot be checked by modern systems like Coq or Agda, because the lambda-typed lambda-calculi of de Bruijn are "incompatible" with the Pi-typed lambda-calculi of modern type theory.) < 1270518722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha fax was wrong it is feasible < 1270518893 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly did I say that is "wrong"? < 1270519011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you took the time to actually read the paper you are quoting you might find that there are foundational problems with this < 1270519076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever made music using Bohlen-Pierce? < 1270519088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should learn what Pi Calculus is < 1270519147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not related < 1270519157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well you didn't seem to know that automath did that at the time < 1270519157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise stop being an ass < 1270519166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i feel cheated on by coq after how nice mizar proofs are :( < 1270519174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no. < 1270519187 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just shut up about stuff you have no clue about < 1270519248 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270519479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i don't remember you having contact with the authority of having clueness... < 1270519798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, g'bye everyone: see you Friday. < 1270519815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1270519907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270520132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, crud < 1270520676 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/why-microsoft-did-the-right-thing-in-ditching-xp-for-ie9.ars < 1270520687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Low Integrity thing sounds.. excellent < 1270520920 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270520985 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POOPPY! < 1270520995 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pooppy, meet carlinet. carlinet, meet pooppy. < 1270521043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both people whose names I cruelly massacre for no good reason. < 1270521062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1270521097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 339k and it's not going down much further... < 1270521325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the HTML5 Quake2 < 1270521400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, is there a link to actually try it somewhere? < 1270521408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :329k. And fin. < 1270522279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION went for a walk. Great northern lights tonight. < 1270522348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you upload the mental pictures < 1270522395 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i would interpret that as "describe them", but i'm not sure that's a very fair thing to ask. < 1270522405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but if you're in finland maybe you can see them too? < 1270522428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never seen northern lights in turku < 1270522432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few times in lapland < 1270522436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270522457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were very fast-moving tonight, and in a broad band straight overhead < 1270522467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1270522468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1270522477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very colorful though, i've seen that a few times < 1270522492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well almost straight overhead < 1270522587 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270522676 0 :roper!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270522837 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270523150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION steps out of the other room in a robe with a girl on each arm. < 1270523160 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not what it looks like, Mr. roper! < 1270523523 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://asm.sourceforge.net/asmutils.html < 1270523557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!userinterps < 1270523557 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg < 1270523583 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!aol Hello my friends! < 1270523588 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELO MY FR1END5!!!!!!!!!!1 < 1270523611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Doesn't build on modern nasm. < 1270523622 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: bummer < 1270523669 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails at being a c programmer.. can't figure out how to create this array of char *'s in the right format for strtok < 1270523686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari is actually building shsh :P < 1270523699 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, took a break when my mom called hehe < 1270523713 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at an amazing 26 lines of code < 1270523738 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadbf? < 1270523742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sandbf Testing < 1270523745 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :school me please: < 1270523747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sadbf Testing < 1270523755 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sadbf +[.+] < 1270523755 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :char * args[16]; < 1270523755 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1270523765 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :args[0] = strtok(cmd, " "); < 1270523781 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did EgoBot want to DCC Chat with me? < 1270523790 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that line gives me a "you retard" error < 1270523803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, to send me "Hey, here are the results" < 1270523813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!show sadbf < 1270523813 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1 < 1270523838 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy crap what is in this thing, it's 10k already < 1270523878 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, forgot to strip < 1270524080 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't >.> < 1270524106 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1270524120 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270524307 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please do :P < 1270524338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you be more specific about the error? < 1270524368 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast < 1270524435 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You #include'd string.h? < 1270524455 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1270524474 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it compiles, thanks :) < 1270524508 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not switch to Haskell! < 1270524515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has become a fanatic almost overnight < 1270524530 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually.. why fork? < 1270524546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Because system() requires a shell and exec() needs a fork. < 1270524547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that was fast < 1270524552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want a one-time-use shell :P < 1270524599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i don't think haskell is very good for making supertiny executables < 1270524609 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1270524641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i recall something about a jhc compiler being better at it < 1270524677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whole program optimization iirc < 1270524699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was still experimental last i heard (quite a while ago) < 1270524717 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably ask for advice on beautifying some code fragments < 1270524717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't compile itself < 1270524727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yay < 1270524767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interpreter seems to be working, kind of.. it's not crashing when I give it a bounded tape and "<", which is strange < 1270524776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paste? < 1270524828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24710#a24710 < 1270524839 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you want the whole interpreter to help me debug? < 1270524865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let me look at that first < 1270524884 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's working, it's just ugly < 1270524893 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay it's working < 1270524899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of superfluous parentheses, i see :D < 1270524952 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really all that certain which are superfluous < 1270524997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no where that ... wait. I could have written a function with type BFCmd -> String -> ([BFCmd], String) < 1270525005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have passed stuff into that function for most of those < 1270525015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not all) < 1270525085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah all those fst and snd really beg for a common where clause and pattern matching < 1270525170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to have a common where clause to all those definitions? < 1270525205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24710#a24711 < 1270525210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less parentheses < 1270525249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically function application has higher precedence than _all_ operators < 1270525286 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270525291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically one pattern matching exception, @) < 1270525294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270525328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not at the top level, no, but just a moment... < 1270525413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need vim for this... < 1270525782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24710#a24712 < 1270525789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a case expression < 1270525834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn wait < 1270525848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code is not defined there < 1270525994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24710#a24713 < 1270526183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know of an english parser grammar? < 1270526415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it should even be possible to factor out the identical ( : cmds, rest) part for most of the options, but i'm not sure that makes it better < 1270526438 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it actually looks like wordexp will do nearly everything in one call < 1270526448 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just need to figure out some quirks < 1270526707 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it < 1270526742 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if ithis would be smaller if I wasn't compiling on x64 < 1270526816 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, slightly < 1270526836 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay.. shit shell is 5684 bytes < 1270526969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Pastebin? < 1270527121 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://pastebin.com/xJUQuFWX < 1270527132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels guilty for not having written the code himself < 1270527137 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, the cleaned code < 1270527142 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original is mine, obviously < 1270527166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels guilty for doing too much of your work, i tend to do that when i get carried away < 1270527205 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I didn't need the variable pid did I < 1270527273 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't save any byyes.. oh well < 1270527414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: I'll see what I can do to it. < 1270527418 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/aMmXde7G < 1270527420 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270527432 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little less crap in that one < 1270527571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :41824 shish < 1270527578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... When you stop including malloc... < 1270527578 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270527586 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270527597 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually bigger with uclibc? < 1270527611 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1270527625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's bytes. < 1270527631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1270527644 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was mine < 1270527649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :44K? WTF? < 1270527663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. Are you dynamic linking? < 1270527667 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270527673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failure. < 1270527679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yours is several megabytes. < 1270527694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it needs all of glibc.) < 1270527708 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed you had uclibc already < 1270527713 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work with it? < 1270527727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have a dynamic uclibc. < 1270527729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270527732 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270527757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things, this means the fewer functions you use the smaller your program is. < 1270527774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, perror? Bah. < 1270527791 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are static linking, then int 0x80 asm would be smaller < 1270527802 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did not realize you were < 1270527814 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with perror.. doesn't even increase the size < 1270527826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a function. < 1270527840 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including functions from libc means those functions are included in the binary. < 1270527883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :113 shish < 1270527885 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1270527886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same damned program without perror. < 1270527895 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :113 bytes? < 1270527913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270527919 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy crap < 1270527927 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perror took 44k? < 1270527944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Sorry, no. < 1270527952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wc -l instead of -c somehow. WTF, me? < 1270527964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :41824 shish < 1270527969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more not fucking nuts. < 1270527975 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270527985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah... perror includes stdio. < 1270527996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, so does fgets. :P < 1270528002 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that program sucks for static < 1270528012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably wordexp. < 1270528024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1270528024 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, wordexp is doing a lot < 1270528050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you really want to do is tokenise. And that's it. < 1270528070 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well it would have to be in asm next time < 1270528209 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of curiousity, how big is it when dynamically linked against uclibc < 1270528229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. I don't have a dynamic uclibc. < 1270528236 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1270528242 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it was fun writing it < 1270528249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though probably about a megabyte if you *include* uclibc. ;) < 1270528301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm going to go ahead and fix it to do utterly naive tokenizing. < 1270528324 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had that before but wordexp was so much better with the globbing and all for "free" hehe < 1270528409 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1270528792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9040 shish < 1270528800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could probably be made smaller. < 1270528833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shish kebab < 1270529200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5288 shish < 1270529201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's using read. < 1270529203 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol was looking at which syscalls I would need and it was going down the elementary list, 1, 2, 3, 4.. but then 11 and maybe 12 < 1270529223 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad < 1270529230 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it still work? < 1270529272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270529377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1948 shish < 1270529380 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With dietlibc. < 1270529499 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1270529505 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin? < 1270529556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ShKE < 1270529685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: uninitialised static variables use 0 space in the output binary. :) < 1270529747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably make this smaller by plopping down into assembly, but not by much. < 1270529766 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEAH THAT'S NOT BAD < 1270529777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... What's with the capslock? < 1270529786 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it help to remove the function call < 1270529787 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1270529798 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was in ASM programming mode.. that's a caps lock operation :) < 1270529798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which function call? < 1270529813 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tokenise < 1270529818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's inlined. < 1270529825 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, true < 1270529839 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++cmd_offset? < 1270529867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where at? < 1270529869 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if that is a rumor or truth when they say x++is bigger than ++x < 1270529875 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two places < 1270529901 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(cmd_offset = 0; cmd[cmd_offset] != 0; cmd_offset++) { < 1270529906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any sane compiler, there's not any difference unless you're using the result value. < 1270529909 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmd_offset++; < 1270529912 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh k < 1270529928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you're using the result value, you're getting bigger code regardless. < 1270529948 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how many bytes did that save on your disk? < 1270529973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me go make a new image. Without anything. Bwahahah. < 1270530091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :System is 301 kB < 1270530111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 301 kiB for a Linux bzImage which does nothing but start shish. < 1270530195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the shittiest shell ever. < 1270530210 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!!!! < 1270530211 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270530223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this... Is the shittiest Linux distro ever. < 1270530241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You actually can't do anything on it. :) < 1270530262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even error messages, because dietlibc doesn't have any, and nor does this kernel build. < 1270530268 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can run more shells < 1270530275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Yes you can. < 1270530299 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I take it echo is gone? < 1270530305 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270530309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270530315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is everything else. < 1270530329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was previously using sash, which had a few builtins, and was 60k. < 1270530359 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well chdir is probably not too big since there is a syscall for it < 1270530398 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be eating and doing laundry < 1270530442 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ctrl-D still work to terminate the shell? < 1270530466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270530475 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dietlibc? < 1270530487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. It's freaking tiny. < 1270530487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shish? < 1270530493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit Shell < 1270530543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: When read reads nothing, it returns 0. So, it exits. :) < 1270530867 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shsh turned into a fork bomb lol < 1270530881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1270530911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, might want to fix that... < 1270530915 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on linux you can kill this thing < 1270530943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not running this in a VM? < 1270530951 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope haha < 1270531009 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew, closing the term did it < 1270531023 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what did I screw up < 1270531130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270531260 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270531543 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is a bug.. trying to track it down.. if more than one parm is used, you can't go back to using just one parm < 1270531562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Mmm. That is an issue. < 1270531776 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270531806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how we're at the point that malloc is absurd bloat. < 1270531981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270532022 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed it < 1270532029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whooo. < 1270532034 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for (--tokened_offset; tokened_offset < MAXSIZE; ++tokened_offset) < 1270532034 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tokened[tokened_offset] = NULL; < 1270532078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1270532090 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to break the ctrl-d after a cmd tho < 1270532098 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe unrelated < 1270532172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works here. < 1270532239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Still seeing that bug, though. < 1270532258 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe that wasn't the fix < 1270532532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for(;read_result < MAXSIZE; read_result++) < 1270532532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cmd[read_result] = 0; < 1270532555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be more than is needed, but it works. < 1270532603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1270532607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cmd[read_result + 1] = 0; < 1270532609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1270532627 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was an off by one error? < 1270532676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270532767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it's 12:44, and I need to be up early, I need to go wash clothes now < 1270532812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Gmail: Emails from the email list I'm on are not spa < 1270532813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam < 1270532899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/NWgK < 1270532927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i wish all the glasses had the brown dark lenses...i can only see out of one eye so i could never see the 3d when i tryed to watch them all i would see is a blurry red image..im glad there attepmting to change it" < 1270532955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although maybe she's saying that if they change it, she'll still be able to watch the programs even though they happen to be in 3d < 1270532983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I particularly love how this shell cannot handle spaces in any arguments. < 1270533410 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you want a break; after the exec, otherwise syntax errors are a problem < 1270533436 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cmd[read_result + 1] = 0; was right I think you may have a typo on your new source < 1270533518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: "break"? "break"? That is a forkbomb. < 1270533528 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270533528 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex is a redditor? < 1270533531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The new source does not have read_result any more. < 1270533554 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1270533711 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it a fork bomb? < 1270533730 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should never get to the line after the exec, unless the exec fails < 1270533732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, no it's not. < 1270533750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll just jump out of the while loop and exit. < 1270533755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike now, where it exists. < 1270533756 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270533758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Exits. < 1270533772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure GCC will compile the two as equivalent. < 1270533773 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be washing clothes right now < 1270533777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I'll go do that < 1270533792 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't break, then the child won't terminate < 1270533810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Uh, return from main *is termination*. < 1270533818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that it currently does a "return 0". < 1270533821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how does it return < 1270533826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return 0; < 1270533835 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it get out of the loop < 1270533845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It returns from main. < 1270533877 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put a puts about return.. you wont get there with a syntax error < 1270533881 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above < 1270533881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_start then calls the exit system call with the return value from main. < 1270533901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and with a syntax error the forked process exits from main. < 1270533917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike what you propose, which is... A jump to a return from main. < 1270533940 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : puts("e"); < 1270533940 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return 0; < 1270533942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I need to beat "return 0;" into your head some more? < 1270533946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : execvp(tokened[0], tokened); < 1270533947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return 0; < 1270533964 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, my bad, you do have it < 1270533975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yes*. < 1270533983 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old source didn't < 1270533995 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah either one is pretty much the same < 1270534006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I added it because it was going to forkbomb otherwise. :P < 1270534023 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is why I added break < 1270534029 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just solved the same problem two different ways < 1270534051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And GCC compiles them equivalently. < 1270534062 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1270534223 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the directory doesn't work lol.. duh the environment goes bye bye < 1270534253 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in order to do that, parsing of the command will have to go before the fork < 1270534276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270534480 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it < 1270534745 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/GFKJ < 1270535430 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm unsetenv isn't working for some reason < 1270535475 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (strcmp(tokened[0], "unset") == 0) { < 1270535476 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : puts(tokened[1]); < 1270535476 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : printf("%i\n", unsetenv(tokened[1])); < 1270535525 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unset PATH prints PATH then 0, indicating success < 1270535551 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set works though < 1270535698 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does adding cd bloat it quite a bit? < 1270535776 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270535812 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since unset didn't work: < 1270535820 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (strcmp(tokened[0], "cd") == 0) { < 1270535821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : chdir(tokened[1]); < 1270535821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (strcmp(tokened[0], "set") == 0) { < 1270535821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : setenv(tokened[1], tokened[2], 1); < 1270535821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (fork() == 0) { < 1270535821 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : execvp(tokened[0], tokened); < 1270535823 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : break; < 1270535826 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1270535836 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there.. feature complete, right? :P < 1270535878 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: thanks for the fun < 1270535938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: No problem. < 1270535972 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing adding strcmp, chdir and setenv adds a bit to the size < 1270535988 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really see it here since I'm compiling dynamic < 1270536002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check. < 1270536030 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/OfEd < 1270536049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shish.c:(.text+0xcb): warning: setenv calls malloc. Avoid it in small programs. < 1270536066 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change it to putenv then < 1270536085 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270536111 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one minute, that will require a code change < 1270536113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'll... do the same thing. < 1270536126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4448 shish < 1270536130 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly, different args < 1270536150 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1270536165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc is overheady. < 1270536180 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putenv shouldn't require malloc < 1270536207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2032 shish < 1270536212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without the setenv. < 1270536228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so altering the string changes the environment." < 1270536243 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, fun huh? < 1270536260 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (strcmp(tokened[0], "export") == 0) { < 1270536261 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : putenv(tokened[1]); < 1270536295 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the syntax is export PATH=/bin or whatever < 1270536336 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the PATH will be /bin/ until you have a command long enough to overwrite the PATH. < 1270536403 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, "long enough"? As in, buffer overflow? < 1270536418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, not really a buffer overflow. < 1270536447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that putenv makes the buffer given as an argument be part of the environment. Meaning that when you change the buffer, the environment changes. < 1270536450 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it seems to work < 1270536475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it just so happens, that buffer is also where command parsing happens. < 1270536515 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to overwrite it < 1270536516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: I'm going to statically allocate an array of buffers for that. < 1270536556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touching my chin no longer means blood on my hand, yay! < 1270536557 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't explain WHY it isn't < 1270536567 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hows that laundry coming along < 1270536573 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the drier < 1270536587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go to sleep when it's time for the dryer to be off < 1270536693 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that libc is doing a malloc for me < 1270536714 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put that would break the spec < 1270536717 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*but < 1270536811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, nope, there's still blood on my hands < 1270536816 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm according to the man page, it depends on the libc < 1270536928 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION listens to random songs in the Avatar: The Last Airbender soundtrack < 1270537887 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got primitive \ escape sequences working < 1270537915 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now you can escape spaces < 1270537941 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/iFNP < 1270537970 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270537989 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\space is special, everything else turns back to whatever it was after the \ < 1270538003 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well space does too, but it sets a flag < 1270538165 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with that, I think it actually is usable now < 1270538230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give it rawirc, and you'd make zzo38 happy. :P < 1270538240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vonkeror? < 1270538248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :telnet. < 1270538259 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so how big is http://sprunge.us/iFNP < 1270538319 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4448 bytes. < 1270538339 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats odd < 1270538343 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**err that's odd < 1270538347 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it so big < 1270538370 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putenv? < 1270538375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1270538392 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the next closest shell was 60k, right? < 1270538405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2108 without putenv. < 1270538408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. < 1270538417 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well kinda need putenv < 1270538430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or setenv. < 1270538438 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270538450 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was even bigger < 1270538463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was about the same size, actually. < 1270538503 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm then we should definitely use setenv since it is safer < 1270538516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4448 with setenv. < 1270538534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Yeah, no reason not to. < 1270538543 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what syntax did you use for it? < 1270538553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set foo bar < 1270538581 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setenv(tokened[1], tokened[2], 1); ? < 1270538594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1270538599 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay cool < 1270538627 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there you go then .. shsh lives :) < 1270538637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270538654 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that put it at around 335k < 1270538689 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er 305k < 1270538709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll check. < 1270538768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :302k. < 1270538778 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad! < 1270538802 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw does ctrl-z do anything? < 1270538830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you need more logic for job control. < 1270538853 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the kernel? < 1270538859 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-224.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270538864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, in the shell. < 1270538884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For job control, you need to actually watch the terminal for Ctrl-Z to send sigsusp. < 1270538933 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm wondering how you could ever run more than one thing at a time with our shell :) < 1270538948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nohup? < 1270538951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1270538953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1270538959 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Detaching from the terminal. < 1270538989 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah would have to daemonize < 1270539014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is nearly what a job-controlling shell does anyways. < 1270539082 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could almost use vfork instead of fork < 1270539087 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if it's smaller < 1270539130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're system calls. < 1270539144 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270539147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The libc functions literally do nothing but jump to the kernel. < 1270539183 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess putenv isn't a system call < 1270539184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be *saner* to use vfork, though. < 1270539206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. < 1270539225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The environment is done entirely in userspace, IIRC. < 1270539290 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, then execv might be smaller < 1270539393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1270539438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The environment is just extern char **environ. < 1270539462 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the call has to get the PATH and find the command < 1270539474 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's not much code < 1270539501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that. < 1270539543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it's much code. < 1270539623 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how hard it'd be to hack shsh into busybox < 1270539638 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't ever tried adding a command to bb before < 1270539640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not very. < 1270539748 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I still up? < 1270539769 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because being asleep sucks < 1270539789 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270539937 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just found out that lamebook doesn't show ALL entries on a topic on the main page < 1270539944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to be awake for a bit longer < 1270540607 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a git < 1270540799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270540800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270540981 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will be waking up in 3hrs :( < 1270541169 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck with that < 1270542304 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm totally wearing e by numbers to my math contest < 1270544616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270545182 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270545347 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270545516 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270547018 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-159.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270547125 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270547316 0 :oobe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270547847 0 :adam_d!~Adam@client-86-23-116-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270548503 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270550208 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270550801 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270552703 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270556999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1270557014 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270557864 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270557893 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-159.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270560550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270560732 0 :roper!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :atrapado < 1270561735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (CCBI 2.0 completes it in about one-fifteenth of the time that cfunge does. SO YEAH. AnMaster: macro-optimization > micro-optimization.) <-- hm really? < 1270561751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you compare with all fingerprints disabled for both? < 1270561766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, last I looked ccbi 2 implemented way fewer fingerprints < 1270561774 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a nice Microsoft support experience: https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/546053/ < 1270561776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But Unfortunately we will not fix this issue as it is not a common code and is not a high priority issue.Thanks for playing with our product." < 1270561777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All fingerprints enabled for both < 1270561794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I especially like the "thanks for playing" bit. < 1270561796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then what bit is so much faster? < 1270561812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I looked cfunge doesn't implement any of the mainloop-intrusive fingerprints like IMAP/TRDS? :-P < 1270561819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1270561832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my question still stands < 1270561833 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They're the only ones that really matter) < 1270561846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A better Funge-Space helps < 1270561855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, better in what way? < 1270561858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, how do you do it < 1270561870 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't profiled both cfunge and CCBI to see where exactly each one spends their time, you know ;-P < 1270561877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complicatedly < 1270561894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I know on my system cfunge spends most time in string pushing in y. That bit could be optimised somewhat < 1270561899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :env -i reduces it of course ;) < 1270561921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you mean "Complicatedly" < 1270561922 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270561936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about you check out the benchmarks and the results at iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/fungicide.html first :-P < 1270561959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is this not on mycology? < 1270561960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1270561981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could read the whole announcement instead of just that one line, you know :-) < 1270561987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I couldn't find it < 1270561990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology is pointless to benchmark < 1270561995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that line I quoted was first in my scrollback < 1270561995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since both cfunge and ccbi do it in 0.000s < 1270562003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is now out of it completely < 1270562017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately /topic < 1270562027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 0.000? You have a fast computer then < 1270562033 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do. :-P < 1270562035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get it down to two zeros at best < 1270562046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's with fingerprints disabled) < 1270562065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with fingerprints disabled iirc it is something like 0.0024s for both here < 1270562078 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With them enabled, maybe 0.002s or something, can't remember. Still less than 0.01s so any differences are completely pointless. < 1270562123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Linux system (due to the /proc usage for memory use measurement) with GNU Coreutils" <-- then it will have to wait. I'm on freebsd for most of today alas. < 1270562153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably don't want to run the benchmarks yourself. < 1270562158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1270562160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1270562179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hard to profile to find out where the issue is without running them myself < 1270562202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, you didn't explain how your funge space works... < 1270562247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lastly, a table." What a wonderful sentence. < 1270562261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, tkk.fi is timing out for me < 1270562264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/ times out < 1270562271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah not only me then < 1270562287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Your Funge benchmarks generated too much traffic for it to handle. < 1270562298 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously doubt that :-P < 1270562307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still: 1) why don't I want to run the benchmarks myself to be able to profile it? 2) how does your funge space work? < 1270562319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Soon you'll receive angry letters from the computing centre folks. "Why are you hosting such a popular site on our server?!" < 1270562339 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I wouldn't be that surprised, since they do say that they don't like that. < 1270562349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I would be surprised if it were /that/ popular. :-P < 1270562366 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I needed to check the numbers from my site to be able to answer 1) properly, but basically because they take a long time to run < 1270562387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe around 20 hours for cfunge on my machine < 1270562389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then it is useless to test improvements with basically then? < 1270562393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1270562400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can run individual ones of course < 1270562409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, don't they take as long? < 1270562415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all of them < 1270562424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and for 2)? < 1270562437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like said, it's complicated :-P < 1270562438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to be unable to access the source and read it atm < 1270562473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so complicated that you don't know how it works? < 1270562475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1270562491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, seriously, I can't see a good reason for not being able to explain it...) < 1270562524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW I think stinkhorn does something similar since it has similar performance characteristics (and beats cfunge often enough) < 1270562531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also, how much ram do they use? < 1270562552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the site weren't timing out I could answer you < 1270562558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume nothing too excessive. Since otherwise I won't be able to run them < 1270562569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the interpreter :-P < 1270562574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It stopped timing out for me when I did one stop + reload now. < 1270562580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if it is more than 2 GB then I will end up swap trashing < 1270562590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, still times out for me < 1270562598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For cfunge it'll be more than that on a few of the bigger ones, IIRC < 1270562603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For ccbi it won't be, IIRC. < 1270562611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270562628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm getting this on ssh to kirves: 'NFS server korppu not responding still trying' < 1270562631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then why don't you explain how your funge space work. Just saying it is complicated isn't a reasonable excuse < 1270562674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, "broken" *is* the natural state of a NFS system. < 1270562678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, AABBs whose contents are stored as arrays, with a hash table as a fallback < 1270562681 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-D < 1270562687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, AABBs? < 1270562692 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a term. < 1270562695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning? < 1270562707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axis-Aligned Bounding Box. < 1270562713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1270562729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something similar to what glfunge was doing? < 1270562741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what GLfunge was doing. < 1270562764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something with octtrees iirc < 1270562767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at fizzie  < 1270562793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, how large is each such AABB? < 1270562793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GLfunge had fixed-size (axis-aligned) blocks in a treeish way, I forget the details exactly. It certainly didn't try to figure out code-wise sensible regions to put in a block, for example. < 1270562794 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270562818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Dynamic. < 1270562828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay, but do you have some size limits for it? < 1270562831 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1270562834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270562840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you decide when to split them off then? < 1270562852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when do you use the hash table fallback? < 1270562854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Split them off"? < 1270562866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, maybe I misunderstood how you were doing it then < 1270562879 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it's complicated. ;-P < 1270562887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I assume you create new such ones at runtimes? < 1270562903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I can't access the code to read it myself atm < 1270562908 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do a facebook account with the name "CCBI 2's fungespace", and set your relationship status with it to "it's complicated". < 1270562908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the server is still down for me < 1270562921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hehe < 1270562953 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even just booted into Windows so I could make Windows binaries so now I can't access the source code myself either :-P < 1270562973 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@client-86-23-64-15.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270562974 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Incidentally, do you have any sort of looping in those benchmarks? I was looking at the descriptions and most of them seemed to be of the form "repeat X Y times". Which makes a jitfunge developer sad, since for a benchmark like that, it'd just end up tracing (and interpreting) the contents once. < 1270562975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if you were to make windows binaries you surely have the source for *making* them around too? < 1270562988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The -p style ones loop. < 1270562995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was going to download it from the site. < 1270562997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270563013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I forgot to copy it over to the NTFS disk. < 1270563020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, reboot then? Btw tried mingw? Debian/Ubuntu has a package for mingw cross compiler iirc < 1270563047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think cross compiling D is easy enough < 1270563053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1270563060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it should be with llvm :P < 1270563071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because LLVM bitcode is not platform-independent < 1270563080 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270563086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's platform-specificity before the code reaches LLVM. < 1270563094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the llvm asm in theory if you do it right? < 1270563103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly platform independent < 1270563120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few things like type sizes need to be adjusted < 1270563153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rebooted. < 1270563164 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Mostly" != "fully". < 1270563184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but the remaining bits shouldn't be *too* hard to account for < 1270563197 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And really, it depends. For D it won't be since it'll e.g. be using the wrong exception-handling code. < 1270563201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the OS API + some type sizes < 1270563203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. DWARF instead of SEH. < 1270563206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS API, exactly. < 1270563212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a big thing and nontrivial to convert. :-P < 1270563238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, stuff like D already does it, doesn't it? Since there are linux and windows versions < 1270563251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The LLVM D compiler doesn't support Windows. < 1270563255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270563263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good for their sanity < 1270563269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if it did, it wouldn't "do that" < 1270563276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what? < 1270563281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just grabs the appropriate #ifdef-equivalent when compiling < 1270563285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM can't see that < 1270563291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes you would need system headers < 1270563299 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270563324 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Temp copy of my site hosted locally at http://tar.us.to:5423/ < 1270563325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like any cross compiler it would need headers from the target system < 1270563338 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since a cross compiler doesn't exist... :-P < 1270563374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what the hell is txz? < 1270563387 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270563404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar.xz < 1270563413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is xz? < 1270563437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tukaani.org/xz/ < 1270563440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did ccbi use 32-bit or 64-bit cells? < 1270563446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which did cfunge use? < 1270563452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because cfunge defaults to 64-bit cells < 1270563454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look.at.the.results. < 1270563462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes it says ccbi2-32/64 and so on < 1270563463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1270563470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't tell me if that is -m64 or -DUSE64 < 1270563478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are *very* different things < 1270563484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fastest variant is -m64 -DUSE32 < 1270563489 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All executables involved (the interpreters themselves or the interpreters’ interpreters, such as perl and python) were x86–64 ELF binaries. < 1270563496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270563500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says that on the page, you know. < 1270563506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb phone < 1270563517 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my SVGs aren't working. < 1270563723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O Firefox, why fail'st thou so < 1270563752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1270563771 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270563980 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270564402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1270564422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tkk.fi seems back as well. < 1270564425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270564437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 403? < 1270564445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm reloading two times helped < 1270564451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1270564520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, if this is mostly due to funge space (and I have no clue about profiling D code...) < 1270564527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'm lucky < 1270564539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because my funge space code is well abstracted < 1270564548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good generic API against it < 1270564559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'll just copy it over as usual? ;-P < 1270564563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nah < 1270564585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you implement BOOL btw? And what about REXP? < 1270564594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you did, then surely you just copied it from me! < 1270564606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I implemented those before you did < 1270564613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REXP and FING are the two new ones in CCBI2, for fungot < 1270564613 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: letrec is fine, i can verify it < 1270564625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you copied it from me then clearly :P < 1270564628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, at least you have a history of taking code from CCBI :-P < 1270564639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not really. Of studying it yes < 1270564665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weren't the original issues with TURT in cfunge due to my buggy implementation? ;-) < 1270564726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that wouldn't have been an issue if you hadn't made it buggy < 1270564727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270564730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270564767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes, TURT and I guess the matrix fingerprint were based on your ones < 1270564781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because at the time I implemented those I didn't really know much about the underlying areas < 1270564788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be required to implement them < 1270564839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looks like cfunge won at http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/horizontal.b98.html < 1270564845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1270564846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1270564847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1270564864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where does it list the size of the program? < 1270564869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC cfunge wins at diagdown,diagup,hollow-square < 1270564872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't < 1270564880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you said that varied on the main page < 1270564883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on some parameter < 1270564911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you meant the parameter value? < 1270564913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I care much more about speed than memory usage. Relatively speaking, memory usage is not very interesting to me < 1270564916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1270564925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where are you looking for it? < 1270564938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/horizontal.b98.html < 1270564939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that page the graphs at the top have it as the x-axis < 1270564954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? where are the graphs < 1270564957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see any graphs < 1270564966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVG :-/ < 1270564973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I use firefox < 1270564986 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They work for me at tkk.fi but they didn't at my locally-hosted one, which was weird < 1270564998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, they don't work on tkk.fi for me < 1270565011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, they do work on wikipedia < 1270565018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tried http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SVG.svg ) < 1270565030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also clicking the image) < 1270565038 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a PNG < 1270565039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1270565045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not if you click the image < 1270565059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that works but embedding seems a bit unfortunately random < 1270565095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cactus plot for time used. < 1270565095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume you see the text instead? "Line plot of foo bar" or whatever < 1270565096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270565105 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example that text, yes < 1270565108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What what < 1270565113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not ? < 1270565117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the normal way < 1270565118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that doesn't work in Firefox :-P < 1270565122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh!? < 1270565131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVG img doesn't work in Firefox: it's a known bug < 1270565139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=276431 < 1270565140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm pretty sure it worked for me with .svg in 3.0.x versions < 1270565144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tested recently < 1270565146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're wrong < 1270565160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, shouldn't this be a trivial fix < 1270565174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, rewriting them to object tags internally or something < 1270565175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a security issue since SVGs can be scripted < 1270565179 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that < 1270565185 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember the details but no, it's not trivial. < 1270565186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but so can web pages... < 1270565196 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But other images can't... I DUNNO < 1270565218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway I presume you see that "cactus plot" text? < 1270565229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what the hell < 1270565234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after view source I do see the images < 1270565237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.................. < 1270565239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270565283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway it is pretty much guaranteed that whatever-32 is faster than whatever-64 < 1270565288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since more data fits in cache < 1270565289 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1270565313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes mine was so fast for the squares? < 1270565345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway the table below, it doesn't state what problem size it is for < 1270565356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a summary, it includes all problem sizes < 1270565363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the total memory? < 1270565366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it average? < 1270565367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peak? < 1270565375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the total memory. < 1270565380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sum. < 1270565383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean run1 + run2 + run3 ...? < 1270565389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is what "total" means. < 1270565389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and in what unit < 1270565400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All time measurements are in seconds (s) and all memory measurements are in mebioctets (Mio)." < 1270565425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... that unit... < 1270565431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270565462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took like 3 seconds to figure out what was written. Because "word form" reading broke down < 1270565473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then another second to parse it < 1270565509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would complain about you not justifying how these benchmarks are reflective of real-world Funge-98 use, if there was any. < 1270565526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :D < 1270565531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is fungot < 1270565532 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: magic takes away most of the " _" is 0??? < 1270565536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that would be a minor problem if there were any. < 1270565562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could test fungot's ul and bf interpreters instead < 1270565563 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nngh or something? ( so when cmuscheme48 sends the ' ,from-file foo.scm' command, it would be. < 1270565565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as free standing < 1270565608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ccbi1 stats for hollow square are amazing < 1270565614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did it even manage that < 1270565617 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI1 is quite amazing :-D < 1270565623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slower than language::befunge < 1270565630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why does it say language-befunge there? < 1270565632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the proper name < 1270565649 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of them say the proper name because I was too lazy to prettify them < 1270565700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And hey, cfunge is slower than Language::Befunge on the two biggest fork.b98 < 1270565700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh read that as petrify < 1270565710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fork.b98 as in t? < 1270565711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270565722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I will argue that forking a lot is not realistic < 1270565732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it is a pretty useless stats < 1270565742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1270565753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programs won't have more than 2 or 3 threads. I can't imagine anything with more than 50 say < 1270565798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge is optimised for expecting few threads. It only grows the thread list in very small chunks. Unlike the stack that is grown in chunks of 1024 elements iirc < 1270565824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm confused about is diagup/diagdown being efficient in cfunge < 1270565834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that x to set a delta of 1,1? < 1270565857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses x to do that, yes (what else?) < 1270565865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and if I implement another funge space, expect it to be a compile time option. < 1270565875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to list 4 variants of cfunge next time ;P < 1270565888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, then it goes like 11x11x? diagonally < 1270565903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what does it travel over < 1270565907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty space? < 1270565908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? It travels over z < 1270565911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270565917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"11x followed by the given number of z in a diagonal line." < 1270565930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't know how you implement z... < 1270565939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270565948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep(1); return; < 1270565953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep(1)? ;P < 1270565954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1270565958 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not :-D < 1270565961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1270565994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that CCBI doesn't handle loading of sparse files efficiently < 1270565997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how many decimals did you use for http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/diagdown.b98.html ? < 1270566001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than is listed I assume < 1270566013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at cfunge-32/64 ordering down ther < 1270566014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1270566016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gettimeofday() < 1270566020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on "Individuals" < 1270566024 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So microseconds, I guess < 1270566029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the sorting shows more than what you list < 1270566046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It really doesn't matter if the difference is that small :-P < 1270566059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, each is an average over how many runs? < 1270566077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide.html#measurements < 1270566116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First, the interpreter is run on a benchmark once and its time and memory use are measured. Memory usage is assumed to not vary, and thus it is measured only this one time per benchmark. " < 1270566117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270566123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how can it not vary? < 1270566130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would it vary? < 1270566145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh you mean vary between runs, not vary during a run < 1270566154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course :-D < 1270566176 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could just always take the memory usage as the first value < 1270566183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, since cfunge sets up randomness at startup, presumably the code path to write it could look slightly different < 1270566198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so srandom(19847682764) vs. srandom(19847682372) < 1270566200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1270566202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also assume that that makes absolutely no difference < 1270566209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1270566219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I use the microseconds from gettimeofday() < 1270566317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the thing to do is to make it double fork and run the original process only for console IO < 1270566322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should confuse your stuff ;P < 1270566342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I notice you skipped efunge < 1270566343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes < 1270566345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll disqualify such an implementation for being abusive :-P < 1270566377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There have not yet been any release, first release (0.0.1) is expected in late October or early November (2008)." < 1270566389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, what does mmap() calls show up as in /proc/self/smaps ? heap? < 1270566399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270566404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/self/pid/ < 1270566407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be honest: I don't know. The numbers seemed representative so I went with them. < 1270566456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also since cfunge mmap()s the input file I assume it will drop sharply once the file is loaded < 1270566531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is up with plots/horizontal.b98/1000000/line-memtime.svg < 1270566557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something up? < 1270566572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1270566619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it looks weird for the lower one < 1270566620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean the Rc/Funge-98 messing about, I've seen it do that elsewhere as well and I don't think the measurements are wrong < 1270566625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270566642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and why is the cfunge plot in plots/horizontal.b98/100000/line-memtime.svg discontinuous? < 1270566659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes to almost zero at one point? < 1270566714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; that happens as well, with many interpreters; they start out high, then drop, then climb "normally" < 1270566718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and uh plots/horizontal.b98/10000000/line-memtime.svg has two red lines at once? < 1270566726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory is no longer a function of time < 1270566736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is more than one value < 1270566743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1270566755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is a constant red line at the top < 1270566765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is one normal one further down < 1270566768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; that's in all the plots < 1270566773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah indeed < 1270566775 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just marks the theoretical maximum < 1270566775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why= < 1270566779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. the amount of memory in my system < 1270566782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270566794 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The time ones have something similar, for the timeout of 10800 seconds < 1270566797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I thought it was ccbi1 :P < 1270566804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some other way to mark it < 1270566806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say dashed line < 1270566809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would work better < 1270566828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason the SVG terminal in gnuplot doesn't use non-solid lines for the interpreters, it was better in postscript < 1270566828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did cfunge ever hit the timeout? < 1270566845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see that in the main summary: no, it didn't < 1270566857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2318.5 seconds was the maximum for cfunge-32 < 1270566881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270566889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what about memory limits < 1270566893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the graphs on the main page < 1270566897 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270566897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't figured them out < 1270566905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they make little sense < 1270566917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benchmarks completed -> time? < 1270566921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make sense to me < 1270566934 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a textual explanation above, you know < 1270566936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is time a function of how many of the benchmarks were successfully completed? < 1270566942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, read it, confused me even more < 1270566963 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just the maximum time needed to complete that many benchmarks < 1270566965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First a few cactus plots: the vertical axis displays the maximum amount of resources (time or memory) used to solve the corresponding number of benchmarks" <-- perhaps you mean "correspondingly numbered"? < 1270566972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't < 1270566978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can't read it still < 1270566989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is a sum? < 1270566996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the time up until then? < 1270567005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not cumulative, it's the maximum. :-P < 1270567016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270567020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes NO sense < 1270567041 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have ten benchmarks that take: 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 seconds, you'll get five dots at 1, four at 2, one at 3 seconds < 1270567052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With the x-coordinate increasing by one each time) < 1270567096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270567106 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See e.g. http://www.cril.univ-artois.fr/SAT09/results/timegraphs.php?idev=22 for a precedent, I didn't make this up ;-P < 1270567127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what if the ten benchmarks take: < 1270567135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 2 < 1270567141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing < 1270567141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 11 I guess < 1270567148 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, that's one more 3 < 1270567150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway < 1270567151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so you get three or two three dots? < 1270567152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sorted first < 1270567157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........... < 1270567165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's equivalent to 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 < 1270567171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is useless for getting an overview of which ones are slow < 1270567185 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's meant for comparing the interpreters, not the benchmarks < 1270567195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and didn't stinkhorn complete any btw? < 1270567198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270567202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a few < 1270567204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like it < 1270567205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270567211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270567213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pyfunge < 1270567218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pyfunge crashed? < 1270567227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all explained in the text < 1270567232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part < 1270567240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note on misbehaviour" < 1270567276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# CCBI 1.0.20 can’t handle fork.b98 past 4096 threads at all, crashing in some way. < 1270567278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1270567279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1270567287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in some way" == "I don't know" < 1270567290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does it stop at the first one crashed? < 1270567297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it"? < 1270567301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270567307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the diagram < 1270567319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it seems cut short very early for ccbi if just the fork one failed < 1270567340 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see the number of benchmarks run in the table below < 1270567347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :74 for most, 69 for CCBI 1, 42 for PyFunge < 1270567353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270567377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do the fork threads exit right away? < 1270567382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they continue to run? < 1270567388 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all alive when the first one hits @ < 1270567409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270567432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the forks one, I think that simply tuning the realloc() growing size for threads would change it a lot < 1270567443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly < 1270567469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/fork.b98.html <-- why are there extra smaller diagrams? < 1270567470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI just does a braindead append, leaving the GC to handle it (and everybody who's used D for a while knows that this is a good way to kill performance) < 1270567482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no extra diagrams, they're all the same < 1270567491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of tiny ones at the end < 1270567494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why Firefox displays some as small, I do not know < 1270567499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270567499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move your mouse over them < 1270567524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does nothing? < 1270567536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me it enlarges them if they're small :-P < 1270567553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reloading the page makes them large < 1270567555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :View in a separate tab/window/program if they're problematic < 1270567563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I found out I have to allow scripts if I want the svgs to show < 1270567575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that blocks them < 1270567591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is silly, it noscript only blocks the scripts, not the whole page normally < 1270567597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why should it be any different for svgs < 1270567604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only block the scripts in the svgs < 1270567610 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1270567635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me noscript displays a placeholder with its logo if it blocks them, so I thought that'd be obvious, sorry :-P < 1270567679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I bet I could make a number of benchmarks where cfunge would be way faster :P < 1270567701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi1 as the fastest one would have a hard time though < 1270567707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl making food < 1270567726 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've asked you for benchmarks three times over the past six months; IIRC you responded once saying that you didn't have any ideas < 1270567732 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So suffer ;-P < 1270568092 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mentioned life.bf once, but I couldn't be bothered to figure it out and adapt it into a benchmarkable form < 1270569592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well life.bf is useful < 1270569605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so is fungot's ^bf and ^ul < 1270569605 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: misc/ packages.scm < 1270569639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what I do with life.bf is run it for 20 seconds. then kill it. Then check how large the output file is < 1270569649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite easy to benchmark < 1270569666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think I told you the command line I used before < 1270569683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is very benchmarkable yes < 1270569695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changes there might even depend on the level of I/O buffering < 1270569704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has nothing to do with performance < 1270569733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, stdout redirected to something tends to become fully buffered < 1270569766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the buffer size can vayr. < 1270569767 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vary. < 1270569785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungot seems to suggest using "misc/packages.scm", but I'm not sure how that'd work. < 1270569854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there some sort of canonical brainfuck benchmark? You could run that on the ^bf interp, or some other Befunge-brainfuck. Not that that'd be very indicative of those mythical real-world workloads either. < 1270569856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Preferably: replace the , with $ and set it up so that it stops after some (preferably easily changeable) number of iterations < 1270569875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But that's what I haven't bothered to do) < 1270569937 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270570429 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270570598 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270571652 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270572142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1270572196 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270572198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270572198 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270572456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :History | News: 0 events tunes.org private sector in the beginning of Christ Foundation | http: / / / ~ 2 per year - and through Torah mandelstam. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270572501 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270572525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spot the difference. < 1270572576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270573103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, IO tests are interesting too < 1270573148 0 :adam_d__!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270573149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But try not to conflate it with non-IO. < 1270573318 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270573332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1270573348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw: awk '{print $6}' /proc/*/maps | sort -n | uniq -c | grep -Ev '/usr/lib/.*\.so' indicates mapped files are shown not as heap < 1270573352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about anon mmap < 1270573376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. if you're going to benchmark IO, try to benchmark only IO, not IO + something otherwise performance-intensive. < 1270573380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also lines like: < 1270573382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/8939/maps:7fab50ecf000-7fab50f2f000 rw-s 00000000 00:04 23592979 /SYSV00000000 (deleted) < 1270573383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/9438/maps:7f1396aa0000-7f1396b00000 rw-s 00000000 00:04 23756833 /SYSV00000000 (deleted) < 1270573385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite interesting < 1270573399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw for bf benchmark that mandelbrot in bf wasn't very fast iirc < 1270573403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be useful < 1270573415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, extremely slow without optimising < 1270573423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still slow with optimising compiler < 1270573460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/2407/maps-7f7165c88000-7f7165c89000 ---p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/2407/maps-7f7165c89000-7f7166489000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now those are some strange mappings < 1270573480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is - after since it was from grep -C < 1270573508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and smaps is iirc the same, just with more info < 1270573512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so harder to grep in < 1270573517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is not one entry per line < 1270573563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looks like firefox mmap()s ~/.mozilla/firefox/profilename/extensions/{d10d0bf8-f5b5-c8b4-a8b2-2b9879e08c5d}/chrome/adblockplus.jar and so on < 1270573566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all the extensions < 1270573569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1270573606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw as far as I can tell erlang doesn't use the system heap < 1270573614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is zero in size < 1270573624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it mmap()s areas and use those I think < 1270573641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so yeah testing efunge that way would require adjustments < 1270573681 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm /fairly/ sure that anon mmap() is included. < 1270573698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be very surprised if those programs all used only brk(), at least. < 1270573719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, I'm pretty sure there isn't < 1270573726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7f55b454e000-7f55b46e5000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7f55b4762000-7f55b7f18000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7f55b7f84000-7f55b8085000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7f55b80f2000-7f55b8572000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 < 1270573729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are anon mmaps < 1270573732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell < 1270573745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because the way that erlang works, I can see how those varies < 1270573752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both in number and in size < 1270573753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it runs < 1270573773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, included by my measurer: it doesn't grep over anything that looks like that IIRC < 1270573782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I.e. I don't really know what you're talking about) < 1270573826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you said you added heap + stack from smaps iirc? < 1270573830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did I misunderstood you? < 1270573842 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say anything, I wrote something on the web page < 1270573842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misunderstand* < 1270573847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay < 1270573862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but [heap] is brk() as far as I can tell in some simple tests < 1270573864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Memory usage is measured using a Python script which repeatedly reads the /proc//smaps pseudofile, summing up any “Shared” and “Private” values.' < 1270573866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and anon mmaps are not there < 1270573891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Shared_Clean or Shared_Dirty? < 1270573900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both? < 1270573908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both < 1270573911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both Shared and Private seems to be split into Clean/Dirty here < 1270573929 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that starts with "Shared" or "Private" is summed < 1270573945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, due to COW and such on I'm not sure this is actually good < 1270573950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should look at the type of the object < 1270573952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither am I < 1270573954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1270573956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seemed representative < 1270573965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like libc seems mapped more than once into some processes < 1270573967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird < 1270573976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1270573983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are read/readonly/nx and so on < 1270574009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a full replacement solution ready or you can find something that would cause a significant mismeasurement I'm not fussed :-P < 1270574033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well for one, erlang -smp would cause problems I think < 1270574056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1270574103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm < 1270574129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems the threads go into /proc//task//smaps < 1270574149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270574166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270574175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thread specific stacks are gone from the main one it seems < 1270574182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7f1106688000-7f1106699000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0 [threadstack:0000fff0] < 1270574196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1270574234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not sure < 1270574246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux does seem to try to do something "reasonable" for phtreads apps < 1270574274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any graph over which test took the longest for a given implementation? < 1270574286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I want to see what else than t that cfunge was extremely slow at < 1270574294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything < 1270574344 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270574351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh btw: < 1270574353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :// For concurrent funge: how many new IPs to allocate in one go? < 1270574353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define ALLOCCHUNKSIZE 1 < 1270574357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains a lot I think < 1270574358 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would one graph that? :-P < 1270574369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as a venn diagram! < 1270574372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really) < 1270574373 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1270574390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was that >_< over the #define? < 1270574393 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270574397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the venn diagram < 1270574401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suppose it works for that too < 1270574435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is soon AI competition time again; I get to invent new plots to draw about the games, yay. < 1270574441 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For finding the "worst" for anything, grab the preprocessed data and do some awk or something... < 1270574445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure non-1 sizes will work properly < 1270574452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to check < 1270574461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Some #define if only one value is ever correct :-D < 1270574463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ipList*)malloc(sizeof(ipList) + sizeof(instructionPointer[ALLOCCHUNKSIZE])) < 1270574467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I fixed that code? < 1270574473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ais helped me figure it out) < 1270574484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: instructionPointer is a *type* < 1270574521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fizzie now one C nerd mark if you can tell me what it does and why it works. < 1270574538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it confused no ends out of the static analyser sparse < 1270574562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it just taking the sizeof of a static array? < 1270574568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems rather trivial to me... < 1270574569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not a static array no < 1270574576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes in that case < 1270574579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other case was better < 1270574584 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1270574599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there it was sizeof(instructionPointer[(*me)->size + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE]) < 1270574602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :) < 1270574603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I remember that VLA one... but I guess that should be equally obvious < 1270574604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270574637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why he cast the value of malloc() < 1270574644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it isn't like this is C++... < 1270574681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, what did I just do... < 1270574685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursive sshfs I think < 1270574775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where was the link to the .xz tools now again? < 1270574788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1270574793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't in repos < 1270574798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of ubuntu 9.04 it seems < 1270574803 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1270574813 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in [core] in Arch < 1270574827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You sure you don't have it already? < 1270574847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, xz-utils only appears in karmic and lucid. < 1270574852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm on my laptop... < 1270574858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has a better CPU < 1270574862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way better one < 1270574865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(C.f. http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=xz-utils&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all) < 1270574885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh *third level recurses ssfs to uncompress it* < 1270574901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since I mounted a different subtree before < 1270574903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1270574904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270574908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What do you decompress lzma with? < 1270574925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, lzma -d ? < 1270574930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where lzma is from? < 1270574942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ which lzma < 1270574943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/lzma -> /usr/bin/xz < 1270574946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ lzma --help < 1270574947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzma 4.32.0beta3 Copyright (C) 2006 Ville Koskinen < 1270574947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on LZMA SDK 4.43 Copyright (C) 1999-2006 Igor Pavlov < 1270574957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ file /usr/bin/lzma < 1270574957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/lzma: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, stripped < 1270574973 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1270574981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homepage: http://www.7-zip.org/sdk.htm < 1270574984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says apt-cache < 1270574989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I guessed the right package < 1270574990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1270574998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did. < 1270575000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got to do something other, more important, RL < 1270575012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with luck, that'll decompress it as well :-P < 1270575075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ apt-cache show $(dpkg-query -S $(which lzma) | cut -d ':' -f 1) | grep ^Homepage: < 1270575075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homepage: http://www.7-zip.org/sdk.htm < 1270575643 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This Ubuntu lucid installation has xz-utils installed by default (depended by Gnome's file-roller thing), but it still won't overwrite /usr/bin/lzma with a symlink. (The "lzma" package has priority: required, and is therefore also installed.) < 1270575716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270576328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so the xz file is just lzma? < 1270576352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for the README on fungicide < 1270576366 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be different if xz does something different based on argv[0]... < 1270576404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, neither integrates into tar though, at least there seem to be no equiv to tar -z or tar -j for lzma here on ubuntu < 1270576419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's GNU tar specific anyway < 1270576420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The page about xz-utils did say that .xz is a newer container, even though the LZMA algo is still LZMA. < 1270576431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true, but that is the tar I normally use < 1270576445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lucid's GNU tar has a -J flag for xz. < 1270576450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -J, --xz < 1270576450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : filter the archive through xz < 1270576471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And --lzma for lzma. And --lzop for lzop. < 1270576479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lzo too? Nice. < 1270576480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzop? < 1270576482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The latter is yet another LZMA-based thing.) < 1270576500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't LZO completely different? < 1270576500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, lzop *was* LZO-based. < 1270576503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, I can't figure out how to just run a timed test on forking < 1270576510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was just under the impression that lzop had a silly name. < 1270576519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzop is deliciously fast. < 1270576528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, bad compression ratio iirc? < 1270576528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can comment stuff out from runs.dat with # < 1270576533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was in fact so that lzop is based on LZO; it was *lzip* that was the yet another LZMA-based utility I was thinking of. < 1270576538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then make an interpreters.dat and use runallruns < 1270576541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's certainly a number of them. < 1270576547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not too far from gzip, actually. < 1270576566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but where do I run just the fork test. Like I need to run it under valgrind --tool=cachegrind < 1270576580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, (for small sizes only of course) < 1270576583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The nice thing about lzop, though, is tat it means your compression is likely IO bound. ; < 1270576587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270576595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about from ramdisks ;P < 1270576616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where small is something like mycology sized) < 1270576617 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just set up an interpreters.dat with valgrind < 1270576639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that needs to be valgrind --tool=cachegrind --lots-of-other-parameters build_opt_dbg/cfunge < 1270576644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270576647 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do that? :-P < 1270576655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use runone.pl directly too I guess < 1270576671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay, and where does that helper fungify need to be? < 1270576675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In path < 1270576683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and how does one compile it? < 1270576688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc --make < 1270576696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The speed of LZO is approx. 1/6th that of memcpy. < 1270576700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the same dir as the .hs file? < 1270576702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all? < 1270576705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc --make file.hs < 1270576709 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270576720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungify.hs:54:7: < 1270576720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could not find module `Test.ChasingBottoms.TimeOut': < 1270576720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Use -v to see a list of the files searched for. < 1270576721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you need to have the dependencies installed, which you may or may not < 1270576722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, any clue? < 1270576731 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal install chasing-bottoms IIRC < 1270576741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you lack cabal... blame your distro < 1270576763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: cabal: command not found < 1270576764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270576786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing matching "chasing-bottoms" either < 1270576800 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270576826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if I compile it on another system, will it run on this one? < 1270576831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what the heck is up with ghc on arch: < 1270576846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's the same arch and dynamic library versions, it probably will < 1270576846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Targets (1): ghc-6.12.1-4 < 1270576847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total Download Size: 54.21 MB < 1270576847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total Installed Size: 665.06 MB < 1270576860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's normal, isn't it? < 1270576861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have 6.8.2 on ubuntu < 1270576866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1270576876 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Get cabal < 1270576878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can you provide a static binary of it? < 1270576879 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On your ubuntu < 1270576881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file < 1270576882 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: x86-64 < 1270576887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes that is fine < 1270576893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is exactly what I need < 1270576899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar.us.to:12345 < 1270576932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try it < 1270576960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./fungify: error while loading shared libraries: libgmp.so.10: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory < 1270576961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270576966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1270576971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doesn't it support static linking? < 1270576985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To GMP, I don't think so < 1270576988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since that would violate GPL < 1270576990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1270576995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1270577002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for GPL :-P < 1270577004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wouldn't even using GMP at all do so then? < 1270577010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, dynamic linking is fine < 1270577024 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: I can't remember but I think this was an issue once) < 1270577052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and how can I quickly check that it works. Just running it does nothing < 1270577061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungify 123 < 1270577078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION copied /usr/lib/libgmp.so.10 from another computer and is using LD_LIBRARY_PATH < 1270577084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, '{ ? < 1270577094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it outputs something it probably works :-P < 1270577113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. what a mess though :P < 1270577162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was originally just meant for my own use but then it turned out to be very handy in fungicide < 1270577171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is no option to just generate the file? Since I know from experience that running valgrind with LD_LIBRARY_PATH will set will sometimes break all hell lose < 1270577204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you use runone.pl directly it'll take the program as an argument (i.e. the generated file) < 1270577211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270577260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't locate BSD/Resource.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at ./runone.pl line 6. < 1270577261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270577273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the CPAN, Luke < 1270577290 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if your distro doesn't have /that/, take it around the corner and shoot it :-P < 1270577295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it BSD::Resources? < 1270577320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah libbsd-resource-perl seems relevant < 1270577355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there a libbsd-resource-perl-dbgsym I wonder... < 1270577390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it installs a *.so, right < 1270577441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay this one is more confusing: < 1270577443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"make_path" is not exported by the File::Path module < 1270577443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "remove_tree" is not exported by the File::Path module < 1270577454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File::Path *does* seem to be there < 1270577475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which version? < 1270577484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is 2.08 < 1270577495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, trying to find out < 1270577504 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpani File::Path < 1270577507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1270577535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpan starts asking me questions instead < 1270577553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer it? ;-P < 1270577566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't know them, about build dirs and such < 1270577580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I don't want to end up with non-distro files in /usr < 1270577617 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then set up some kind of site_perl in $HOME, which I would guess is possible < 1270577622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it libfile-path-expand-perl ? < 1270577638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it seems File::Path is built into perl? < 1270577639 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would I know? It is File::Path < 1270577644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, same package < 1270577661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl v5.10.0 btw < 1270577669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.10.1 here < 1270577688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel free to modify runone.pl if you think that'll be easier :-P < 1270577706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1270577713 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://search.cpan.org/~dland/File-Path-2.08/Path.pm < 1270577731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/perl/5.10/File/Path.pm < 1270577732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1270577742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is /usr/lib/perl and /usr/share/perl < 1270577744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INST_FILE /usr/share/perl5/site_perl/5.10.1/File/Path.pm < 1270577770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how wound one tell version from the *.pm file? < 1270577779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1270577786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270577789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :version is 2.04 < 1270577797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it says $VERSION = '2.04' < 1270577809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/;/ < 1270577829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, bbl, have to rush, will be back in ~1 hour, 20 minutes < 1270577830 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know very little Perl-the-language and practically none Perl-the-community apart from that CPAN typically works very well < 1270577903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You also realize that you don't have to use any of the Fungicide scripts... I typically didn't when playing around with them, I just used time(1) < 1270577919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/them/the benchmarks/ < 1270578032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270578142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make_path and remove_tree are File::Path's new names for mkpath and rmtree; they do much the same thing, but with a bit different arguments. < 1270578224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File::Path 2.04 is from 24 Nov 2007, that's not so new. According to its documentation -- http://search.cpan.org/~dland/File-Path-2.04/Path.pm -- it didn't yet have those new variants. < 1270578380 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270579100 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.40 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270579113 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teleparts of? Pseudo-dispatch time. < 1270579150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yote. < 1270580500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: How farest thou? < 1270580519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shitty. < 1270580544 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to figure out a way to code on this thing. < 1270580570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jailbreak + terminal.app? < 1270580693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSH over IRC? < 1270580716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ow < 1270580717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess that's not on that thing specifically < 1270580914 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270580925 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-206-102.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270581005 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270581017 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the keyboard is an issue. < 1270581048 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And considering my language preferences the lack of Greek letters ;-) < 1270581111 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::•) it can type €$¥• though < 1270581117 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esy. < 1270581207 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270582016 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270582153 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270582212 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270582311 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270582338 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270582345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? I thought the scripts were there to generate something. Otherwise, why would that fungify be needed? < 1270582365 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270582401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I can't find any *,b98 files in there < 1270582407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The scripts in benchmarks/ generate the files run < 1270582412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all self-contained < 1270582423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270582424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1270582439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not use y to get the the value on the command line? < 1270582474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too complicated :-P < 1270582481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, So I run something like: perl fork.b98.pl 123 > fork-123.b98? < 1270582487 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1270582501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that for fork it has to be a power of two; not sure what'll happen if not < 1270582503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't see where fork invokes fungify? < 1270582511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't /all/ need it < 1270582515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? why? < 1270582526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1270582527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would they all need it? :-P < 1270582528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the power of two < 1270582532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the needing of the script < 1270582543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it was easy to write it that way < 1270582564 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not a power of two it'll probably behave as though it were rounded down to the next power of two... I think < 1270582570 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/next/previous/ < 1270582572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the output size of the fork one grows one line per power of 2? < 1270582583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, something like that < 1270582645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does language::befunge have some huge fixed overhead? Since it was way slower than cfunge until the 65536 graph < 1270582657 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it does < 1270582658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in PERL < 1270582677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but I would have expected a constant factor, not a constant term, which it what it looks like to me < 1270582686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm too tired < 1270582697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been up for 15 hours now < 1270582698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The plot is logarithmic, remember < 1270582709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270582709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC) < 1270582723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always disliked log plots. Don't know why. < 1270582732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe because they are so wooden? < 1270582741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har de har < 1270582794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and I think that fork script rounds down to nearest power of two < 1270582798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it looks like that < 1270582809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1270582812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :round to nearest? < 1270582815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I guessed < 1270582822 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, nearest? < 1270582834 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd think it goes down but whatever < 1270582865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no. It is inconsistent. 32767 and 32768 are same size, but 32769 is one larger < 1270582874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and isn't 32768 a power of two? < 1270582881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so rounds upwards < 1270582885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not downwards < 1270582889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1270582895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION *is* tired < 1270582901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that actually makes sense < 1270583056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay, so the thing to do is to grow it by 2^16 bytes each time right? ;P < 1270583061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will lead to few reallocs < 1270583075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 2^24 < 1270583079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even fewer reallocations < 1270583098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're hopeless, you know that? :-P < 1270583107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you know I'm joking right < 1270583108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270583116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270583160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I may allow all these as user tunables btw < 1270583198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then suggest in README that "for optimal performance, these tunables should be carefully tested and optimised for your needs" or such < 1270583340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you think about that? < 1270583369 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead? Nobody will tune them :-P < 1270583381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you know iirc ATLAS does something like that < 1270583391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ow/ow,/ < 1270583469 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270583621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how many IPs does ccbi allocate in one go? < 1270583638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-06 17:24:06 ( Deewiant) CCBI just does a braindead append, leaving the GC to handle it (and everybody who's used D for a while knows that this is a good way to kill performance) < 1270583648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh I thought that was CCBI1? < 1270583655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't change it in 2 < 1270583660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270583675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that a linked list? < 1270583682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, array < 1270583696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, high level array that might allocate in chunks internally? < 1270583741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the builtin array that does whatever and in practice does something poor < 1270583762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270583809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well strange, allocating 32 ips per chunk doesn't change the time very much < 1270583831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 10 seconds, from 3 minutes, 13 seconds, to 3 minutes, 2 seconds < 1270583834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1270584166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also wtf at cpufreq-info: < 1270584168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : current policy: frequency should be within 800 MHz and 1.60 GHz. < 1270584170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't change it < 1270584178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, changing seems to work but does nothing < 1270584625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Wait, do you append the ip even if it isn't the last one that is forking? < 1270584630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that work < 1270584640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I memmove it to the right place < 1270584661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I found the issue, and that I need to reverse the order I traverse the ip list in < 1270584696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270584971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you memmove to delete an IP in the middle too? < 1270584980 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah IIRC < 1270585016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270585179 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270585244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay the issue seems to be the code that basically does memmov < 1270585253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do your list only contain pointers to IPs or such? < 1270585258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could explain it somewhat < 1270585279 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does < 1270585282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270585316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on the basis that for the normal use case I reduce fragmentation and increase locality of reference I store them inline in the list < 1270585322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that backfires for this weird case < 1270585333 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270585346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because for smaller cases I found it was faster than storing a list of pointers < 1270585359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big is one of your IPs? < 1270585371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not sure on the top of my head < 1270585373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1270585377 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270585378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/on/off/ < 1270585437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1270585451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :680 bytes according to gdb < 1270585467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most is due to the array of fingerprint stacks being inline in the IPs < 1270585471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg, bye! < 1270585473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270585496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this works very well when we have a "realistic" number of IPs. Which would be something less than 10. < 1270585515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I will provide a compile time option for another variant < 1270585545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 85 pointers' worth; moving that around will obviously be more expensive, yes < 1270585566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for most programs the locality of reference wins over that easily. < 1270585582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that this is a non-realistic test case anyway. < 1270585639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it would have been smaller if only you would have let HRTI have a global state, and SUBR being relative also being global < 1270585666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those add 9 bytes in total (1 x pointer to HRTI data + 1 x bool for SUBR being relative) < 1270585693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so yeah, I'm going to make a "stupidly large" variant a compile time option < 1270585734 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to win on every stupid benchmark :- < 1270585734 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P < 1270585749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure I do. If I make a better funge space it will also be an option < 1270585844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so that gives 2^3 options (32/64, model1/model2 funge space [note: need to think of good names for them], normal/super-sized-benchmark IP list model) < 1270585846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far < 1270585871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to test every silly variant :-P < 1270585880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, drop 64-bit cells then < 1270585911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is always slower, or at least same speed. Sure it sorted above in one table, but both showed same value there, so probably not statistically significant < 1270585912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather drop 32-bit ones < 1270585917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why? < 1270585925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a 64-bit machine... < 1270585933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but 32-bit *cells* are faster < 1270585937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite obviously < 1270585978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference is small enough that I don't really care < 1270585990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ bzr branch trunk alt_ip_list < 1270586012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hey, in one place it was cfunge-32 - stinkhorn - cfunge-64 iirc < 1270586027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So improve cfunge, not my problem ;-P < 1270586045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I could make 32-bit cells default, and hide 64-bit on the advanced page or such < 1270586099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only reason 32-bit isn't default is to make funge programmers aware of that they can't assume 32-bit in their programs < 1270586162 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270586192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly you should use 8 bit cells and assembly. < 1270586216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so you can use ah, al, and friends) < 1270586233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah is slow, don't use that. < 1270586332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, funge-98 requires 32-bit or more < 1270586359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the text on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html seems outdated < 1270586385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, forgot to change the year < 1270586387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else? < 1270586396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, don't know, is the file the current one? < 1270586403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be < 1270586405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the zip to be specific < 1270586414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Fine, fine. Do it on a 32-bit Brainfuck then. < 1270586446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes that is what I use for speed testing < 1270586456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, good. < 1270586497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, about mycology 3DSP test: "Loaded and unloaded FPSP, assuming it and its F and P commands will work from now on..." < 1270586499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270586503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after you unloaded it? < 1270586510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1270586518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, typo? < 1270586522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1270586526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what does it mean < 1270586528 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270586531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means that it assumes FPSP works < 1270586532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't make sense out of it < 1270586533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1270586543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1270586547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has successfully loaded and unloaded FPSP but didn't test any further < 1270586548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what happens if FPSP is not implemented then? < 1270586555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it reflects on loading < 1270586556 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it shouldn't have loaded it < 1270586565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and then will it skip the 3DSP test? < 1270586569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270586575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270587309 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270587411 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270587473 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270587473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I might have to switch to a kernel-like make menuconfig soon ;) < 1270587716 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270588478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw will use my memory pool infrastructure for the large model IP list < 1270588489 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270589041 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270590321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, real 0m0.699s < 1270590331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that fork test (not largest one) < 1270590342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parameter? < 1270590351 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare to stinkhorn, it's the fastest on those < 1270590358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me grep shell history < 1270590370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also note this runs on a 2.26 GHz Core 2 Duo < 1270590370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wc -l the file :-P < 1270590383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 17 < 1270590399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2^16 I guess < 1270590404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the last line has no forks < 1270590407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, presumably < 1270590427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what about trailing newline? < 1270590428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1270590442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wc -l doesn't count that < 1270590443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, I don't have stinkhorn around < 1270590448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can't compare < 1270590463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So obtain it? :-P < 1270590468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I allocate 4096 IPs in each chunk. < 1270590474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, link? I'm lazy < 1270590474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1270590485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code.google.com/p/stinkhorn IIRC < 1270590516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since building it is such a complicated task: find src -name "*.cpp" -not -ipath "*tests/*" -not -ipath "*win32*" | xargs g++ -o stinkhorn -O3 -march=native -DNDEBUG -fpermissive < 1270590546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I know that's a lot of IPs... This happens because of that the memory pool code was originally tuned for hash funge space < 1270590553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wth < 1270590562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not a makefile, or even a build.sh < 1270590576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is my build.sh for it :-P < 1270590610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there should be one there < 1270590618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a VS solution and project file but you probably don't care about those < 1270590620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does -fpermissive do? < 1270590627 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it build < 1270590635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1270590650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it errors < 1270590654 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fignore-errors-just-compile < 1270590657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me pastebin < 1270590668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is a HUGE C++ error < 1270590670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, one diff < 1270590674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it hasn't finished yet < 1270590676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1270590683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :src/interpreter.cpp line 111, I think < 1270590687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change const_iterator to iterator < 1270590710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, chhm < 1270590712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1270590718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no compile errors so far < 1270590738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why does it swap trash... < 1270590757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh wait, building all in one go. Bad idea. Per object file is better < 1270590784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do it that way for stinkhorn you should gcc -combine and such for cfunge as well ;P < 1270590811 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge has a build system, which I use: your problem if it's not optimal < 1270590864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270590906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I will write some "profile feedback" build scripts :P < 1270590907 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270590945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270590971 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270591238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some testing indicates stinkhorn has a faster setup time than cfunge. While the difference is near none for large cases < 1270591253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the break-even seems to be around 2^17 threads or so < 1270591272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps 2^18 < 1270591312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem statistically significant at 2^18 though. Sometimes one is slightly faster, sometimes the other < 1270591312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1270591378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then stinkhorn is faster again for a bit, strange < 1270591388 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270591397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I believe some code could possibly be tuned < 1270591418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I know < 1270591429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set the pointer array realloc size to 1 again for testing something < 1270591463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statically. Allocate. Everything. :P < 1270591478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a bit hard :P < 1270591490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP ips[1 << 20]; < 1270591548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1270591561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the chunk here was for the list of pointers in this case < 1270591584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, growing it with 256 at a time seems to give pretty much the optimum < 1270591724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, but it'll mean no need to link against malloc! < 1270591835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ... har? < 1270592040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh, stinkhorn doesn't use exact bounds < 1270592045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains some of the speed I guess < 1270592146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also: how the fuck did stinkhorn manage http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/concurrency/stinkhorn.txt < 1270592188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easily, CCBI used to do that at some (hopefully never released) points < 1270592201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how? < 1270592210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically: handle markers for all IPs before executing any instructions < 1270592210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it ran lots of spaces before < 1270592216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1270592221 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then get screwed if one gets p'd on top of you < 1270592223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge handles it the same way as instructions < 1270592224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270592250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just with a "continue with this IP after" flag < 1270592285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe I should rewrite that, possibly checking that flag every time we call execute_instruction has some severe overhead < 1270592297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an obvious alternative of course < 1270592323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely your CPU can branch-predict well enough that the difference for most code is negligible < 1270592344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it would need to do that after it returned to main loop < 1270592354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I doubt it can actually know which one will happen this time very well < 1270592453 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270592624 0 :tombom__!tombom@82.2.73.142 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270592678 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270592680 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270592689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers the next cfunge version number. < 1270592710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about 02010.04 or such? < 1270592719 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1270592724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long now < 1270592838 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, april 2010? < 1270592857 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270592876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you didn't add efunge to mycology results I see? < 1270592885 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-224.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270592894 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-06 17:05:53 ( Deewiant) "There have not yet been any release, first release (0.0.1) is expected in late October or early November (2008)." < 1270592900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I will remove that message < 1270592913 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a release instead :-P < 1270592924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no time now. < 1270593038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see that page now :P < 1270593066 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still says the same thing, sorry :-P < 1270593070 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ohloh.net/p/efunge < 1270593073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh there < 1270593076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I was on launchpad < 1270593141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now it doesn't any more < 1270593268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I see overall stinkhorn was slower than cfunge? < 1270593279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by quite a bit < 1270593281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly due to the stack, I think < 1270593297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? what does stinkhorn do with the stack? < 1270593307 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't delve into sources < 1270593316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then why do you think it is it? < 1270593342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it loses very badly in y-rep-n < 1270593352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and wth do you do with your stack: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/pushpop.b98.html ? < 1270593395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that looks like cheating. I just don't find it plausible < 1270593412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You'll notice the timings behave almost exactly like the ones of horizontal.b98 < 1270593421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. it's the file that's the bottleneck, really. < 1270593427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270593435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file loading?! < 1270593445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the loading necessarily < 1270593449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But just traversing it < 1270593454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is 10 million cells, after all < 1270593458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Not the loading necessarily"? < 1270593465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in you load lazily? < 1270593476 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No... < 1270593479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270593480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread it < 1270593552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so basically you manage so well because of your funge space? < 1270593564 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely, yes < 1270593572 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But having a non-shitty stack helps as well (c.f. stinkhorn) < 1270593588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what does y-rep-n do? < 1270593600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ynynyn forever? < 1270593606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y-repeatedly-then-n < 1270593606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270593609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270593615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yn-rep is what I said? < 1270593618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270593628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note stinkhorn's total time for all benchmarks is 12888.2 < 1270593635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its time for y-rep-n is 12236.0 < 1270593639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270593650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ideas: n pops each element? Or it shrinks the allocated stack? < 1270593650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge's is 1.0 / 1.8 (32 / 64 bits) < 1270593657 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we exclude that < 1270593676 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270593679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then stinkhorn isn't too bad < 1270593685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stinkhorn is about 5.6 times as fast as cfunge-32 < 1270593695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270593706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it doesn't pass mycology and doesn't do exact bounds < 1270593714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without exact bounds cfunge is quite a bit faster < 1270593736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't compare apples and pears < 1270593736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it is a bit nonconforming. < 1270593751 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge won't be six times faster without exact bounds :-P < 1270593803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, more like 150% faster. And sometimes much more (if you write spaces to your "edges") < 1270593864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, stinkhorn seems to be missing from last y-rep-n graph? < 1270593880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it presumably ran for most of that < 1270593883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before it timed out < 1270593884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timeouts are missing, I don't know why < 1270593908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noticed it pretty late and haven't looked into it yet < 1270593928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The data should be there, the plotter is just failing. < 1270593948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the ccbi2 0.07 vs. 0.10 for cfunge is probably due to startup overhead for cfunge < 1270593965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed all the memory pools and such does have a constant overhead for very short running programs < 1270593968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't bother comparing times below one second. < 1270593975 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, just don't. :-P < 1270593978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270593987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I want to be first on the list again you see. < 1270593994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm going to make sure I am < 1270594005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1270594018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe not for every test < 1270594026 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make sure you never are; I'll delay updating the rankings just long enough for CCBI to be in the lead again ;-) < 1270594043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, was the main overhead for cfunge that fork test? < 1270594051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that isn't fair you see < 1270594078 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may've been, I can't remember < 1270594079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270594108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what the cactus plots are for: you can see that there are only a few benchmarks where cfunge takes a noticeable hit < 1270594123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I wonder why I was so fast at diagdown... < 1270594126 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in the zoomed-in one you can tell that the difference isn't really that big < 1270594143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not you being fast, it's me being slow < 1270594186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why are you slow at it then? < 1270594212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A diagonal line is the worst case for an AABB < 1270594218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the thing to do is to expand static area to fill most of that ;) < 1270594224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. Sparse matrix? < 1270594238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270594245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is basically the shape of an identity matrix < 1270594253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't there fast ways for such iirc? < 1270594277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also: hollow-square < 1270594278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's assuming sparse data, which won't usually be the case < 1270594280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fast at that too < 1270594293 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/I'm fast/You're slow/, and yes, I know. < 1270594302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how comes that time? < 1270594308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing. < 1270594316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't diagonal though? < 1270594329 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still a mostly empty box. < 1270594337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1270594371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, idea: require a statistical analysis file to be pre-generated < 1270594378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that selects algorithm < 1270594384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1270594396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since it must be pre-generated, it shouldn't be counted to the running time < 1270594403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it would be a one-time thing for most programs < 1270594432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I was inspired by db engines analysers here < 1270594447 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately Funge interpreters aren't DB engines < 1270594459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do you do so well at filled square? is all of that square executed? < 1270594471 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is < 1270594474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270594496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horizontal-p? how does that differ from horizontal? < 1270594502 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read.the.page. < 1270594533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the results one? < 1270594557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that describes the results, not the benchmarks themselves < 1270594584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm diagdown-p, why are you faster at that one? < 1270594601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think initial file loading is *that* much more efficient < 1270594613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me < 1270594660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also amusing that rcfunge2 uses more ram for diagup-p at 5000 than at 10000 < 1270594697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the runtime is that small it's just a case of the measurer missing it < 1270594710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270594716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try with massif instead < 1270594720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't miss it that way < 1270594727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can't profile speed either < 1270594731 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And take a 100x performance hit? No thanks < 1270594736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These things can take hours as-is < 1270594740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is useful for the "runtime is too short" cases < 1270594744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only need to use it for them < 1270594754 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd be measuring different things < 1270594763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what about additional info then? < 1270594764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One uses /proc/smaps, the other massif < 1270594770 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter < 1270594785 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like said, just forget about any differences when the time is less than a second :-P < 1270594797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, be happy I didn't continue with bashfunge. You couldn't have profiled it easily, since it invoked awk and sed and what not quite often iirc < 1270594810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and subshells < 1270594816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd've just said "counts aren't accurate" :-P < 1270594819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1270594844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm tempted to make an interpreter using sqlite with a disk db for the funge space or such < 1270594850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to mess up the memory stats < 1270594905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I'm not 15x slower than you if we exclude the forks case < 1270594925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct < 1270594932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how much slower am I then? < 1270594941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1270594950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subtract and divide, it's not difficult :-P < 1270594977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I hope your funge space code is well commented < 1270594984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can learn what the hell you do < 1270594990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it isn't < 1270594994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270595012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH I trust that it's complicated enough that you won't be able to rip it easily < 1270595030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do succeed, good on ya then I guess :-P < 1270595037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wc -l space/*.d < 1270595037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3245 total < 1270595039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1270595051 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's up from maybe a tenth of that previously < 1270595054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like more than 1/3 of cfunge size < 1270595070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc cfunge is ~9000 lines of code < 1270595078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 1000, something like that < 1270595082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270595083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10000 < 1270595086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1270595148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270595165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh *~ files < 1270595168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it < 1270595188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total < 1270595189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- < 1270595189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total 112 11941 4914 29.2% 2291 19146 < 1270595193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -l cfunge/trunk/src/**/*.[ch] | tail -n1 < 1270595193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 14092 total < 1270595198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs, < 1270595200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total < 1270595200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- < 1270595200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dmd 61 10462 1833 14.9% 2573 14868 < 1270595203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270595209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you forgot lib < 1270595211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1270595217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib should be semi-counted only < 1270595217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib isn't your code is it/ < 1270595218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270595229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it isn't mine originally, apart from the mempool stuff < 1270595237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of it is heavily modified < 1270595256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, without lib: < 1270595258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total 98 9052 3546 28.1% 1609 14207 < 1270595269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -l ccbi/src/**/*.d | tail -n1 < 1270595270 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15249 total < 1270595283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, more than mine < 1270595285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the C wrappers < 1270595287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -l ccbi/src/**/*.[dc] | tail -n1 < 1270595287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 15425 total < 1270595299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? < 1270595306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't here? < 1270595306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NCRS and REXP < 1270595319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they generated? < 1270595325 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should be in src/ < 1270595328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is the ccbi zip file outdated? < 1270595331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there < 1270595334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't saw them < 1270595335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1270595336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked in ccbi/ < 1270595345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the mempool stuff: Total 3 240 151 38.6% 71 462 < 1270595374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but to be fair some of that includes other files with different defines multiple times < 1270595384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how to count that ;) < 1270595403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah, C lacks templates, sometimes they would be useful) < 1270595405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -l space.d < 1270595405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :125 space.d < 1270595408 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI 1.0.2) < 1270595409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20* < 1270595419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270595425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, 25x bump there < 1270595437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, when do you switch to hash fallback? < 1270595457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When there're too many boxes < 1270595475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so it is basically like a number of static funge spaces that you create in various places? < 1270595475 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270595485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on some heuristic? < 1270595521 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds maybe about right < 1270595569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, clever, and sounds like it contain plenty of more or less randomly selected constants that have to be fine tuned < 1270595580 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-206-102.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270595590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of fudge factors basically < 1270595663 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1270595668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tuned them at all < 1270595668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you grow AABBs btw? < 1270595677 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/aforteforpiano/12f.ogg < 1270595709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, bad soundfont? < 1270595720 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perfectly good soundfont. < 1270595724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1270595727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a bad mic < 1270595734 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270595750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, also I didn't like that one very much. Not my type of music. < 1270595758 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270595771 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's me practicing Chopin for an hour, compressed into one minute :P < 1270595778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hah < 1270595785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so no soundfont then? < 1270595800 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steinway_IMIS2.2 < 1270595802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270595809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so midi recording right < 1270595815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zzz -> < 1270595817 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digital piano + ridiculously fast MIDI playback = lawlz < 1270595828 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidsynth + ridiculously fast MIDI playback = OK :P < 1270595832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, heh < 1270595834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cya < 1270595846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how do you mean "lawlz"? < 1270595866 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My digital piano gets all flustered when you send it MIDI data too fast. < 1270595881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flustered? < 1270595931 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds anthropomorphic < 1270595939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got to restrict my English a bit X-D < 1270595942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define flustered < 1270595949 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270595957 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* thrown into a state of agitated confusion; (`rattled' is an informal term) \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Confused, befuddled, in a state of panic by having become overwrought with confusion < 1270595989 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270596002 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps 'virrigt', but that doesn't imply the same kind of agitation < 1270596084 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, deprecate swedish and teach everyone english, this language is too insignificant to motivate keeping it alive < 1270596112 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Swedish is your native language, innit? :P < 1270596121 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1270596274 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is now a Facebook post with every Swedish friend of mine tagged :P < 1270596302 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270596389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYwho, specifically it drops a bunch of notes and actually occasionally plays the WRONG note when you send it MIDI data too fast. It also drops pedal-offs, so it'll sometimes get stuck in pedal mode. < 1270596395 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is only when you send it data crazy-fast, mind. < 1270596434 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't MIDI define ways to cope with devices with limited data rates? are you exceeding the specs? < 1270596446 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270596454 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno, aplaymidi is doing whatever aplaymidi does :P < 1270596477 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But like I said, this is only crazy-fast, e.g. http://codu.org/aforteforpiano/12f.ogg < 1270596666 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be on the aplaymidi side though, filling up an input buffer or whatnot < 1270597118 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, at 30kbit (which midi appears to be using) you should still be able to send several hundred notes per second < 1270598790 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270598954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, perhaps 'virrigt', but that doesn't imply the same kind of agitation < 1270598955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270598959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what it means < 1270598968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't know how it applies to a piano < 1270598980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I just started using flymake-mode in Emacs, and it's amazing < 1270598989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is it for? < 1270598999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it repeatedly syntax-checks the code you're working on < 1270599006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have something against my personifying things :P < 1270599010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and syntax errors get highlighted almost immediately < 1270599018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much faster than in any other IDE I've used < 1270599019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warnings, too < 1270599037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was expecting it to take several seconds, like NetBeans, etc., does < 1270599101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: no, but the things don't like it < 1270599151 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: YOU MEAN THE PEOPLE < 1270599190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vitally challenged people < 1270599247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vitally challenged" is a pretty awesome phrase :P < 1270599904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, C only? < 1270599916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was using it for Perl < 1270599920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure what langs it works for < 1270599921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270599925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270599929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect, most of the popular ones < 1270599943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL? :D < 1270599949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270599956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure? tested? < 1270599958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it doesn't normally have compile-time syntax errors < 1270599966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, read the source to intercal-mode < 1270599968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ick does? < 1270599978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270599981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not *syntax* < 1270599983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1270599987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it complains on a few things at compile-time, but that's arguably a bug < 1270599988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sometimes < 1270600001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the wrong dimensionality and such? < 1270600018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run-time < 1270600022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270600030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that dimensionality can change at runtime, how could you do it otherwise? < 1270600033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it also complains if I feed it /dev/random < 1270600048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what error? < 1270600052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, forgot < 1270600061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it only works on regular files < 1270600062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, something about it not looking like intercal iirc? < 1270600069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wrong extension < 1270600072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/random doesn't end ".i" < 1270600078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no < 1270600079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did: < 1270600089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head --bytes 5000 /dev/urandom > foo.i < 1270600091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such iirc < 1270600126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it complains about missing files < 1270600173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270600180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but flymake, you wouldn't expect to complain about missing files < 1270600187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it, you know, checks the file you're working on atm < 1270600190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which presumably exists < 1270600198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway what about head --bytes 5000 /dev/urandom > foo.i < 1270600201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just garbage < 1270602447 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270602488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270603989 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270604037 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270606957 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270612312 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270612473 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270613787 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270617976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270623185 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270623890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270623895 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270623939 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270625495 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1270626339 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270627199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270627200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270627229 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270629367 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270629754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in #irp: AnMaster: Congrats, you are now uberop. <-- what? < 1270630483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270631987 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270632148 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270632490 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-136.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270633414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just a guess, but probably referring what "/msg chanserv access #irp list" should reveal to you. < 1270633462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh why < 1270633572 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270634319 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270634624 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270635559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, other change: yn-rep 1000000 reduced from 8.169 to 5.370 seconds on my computer < 1270635810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y-rep-n saw a similar, but not quite as large, speed increase. Didn't test it for quite that large values due to "limited" ram < 1270636030 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270636059 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270639135 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270640206 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270642016 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270645963 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270645995 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-206-102.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270647572 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270647655 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270647666 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270647932 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270648929 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1270649277 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270650472 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270652780 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270652963 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270653552 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270653721 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270654814 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1270656334 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270656623 0 :Lawlabee-L!~Gregor@pal-165-018.itap.purdue.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270656632 0 :Lawlabee-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor-L < 1270657297 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270661365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Timeouting lines are now visible in the memory-vs-time plots < 1270661542 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270661851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270661921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270661934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, busy today and tomorrow. I hate deadlines < 1270661974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate gnuplot with gigabytes of memory usage < 1270662039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not really; I think I mostly hate awk and/or my disk being so slow that it takes half an hour to generate the plots < 1270663160 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: brb < 1270663572 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-239-165.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270663775 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270663880 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-2-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270664673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270664710 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270665155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270665588 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270665827 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270666091 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270666097 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get < 1270666212 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put < 1270666213 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-> < 1270666226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap < 1270666580 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270666719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :73 roll < 1270667010 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I <3 Forth < 1270667071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway Deewiant, how would you like another contender for Fungicide, written by someone who doesn't demand to know every detail of every benchmark? < 1270667204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, why not < 1270667215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CANNOT HAVE IT < 1270667222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well < 1270667228 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sufficient motivation levels reached; funge time. < 1270667244 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. On weekends. < 1270667258 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270667272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should get through Mycology, to start with :-P < 1270667273 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270667293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can do n-dimensional funge /and/ speed: specialise the code based on a co < 1270667301 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mpile time parameter < 1270667313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what CCBI already does :-) < 1270667321 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need a language good enough to do that. < 1270667321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 1-3 dimensions < 1270667345 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: dimensions : N+, naturally < 1270667363 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compile-time specialization for an infinite number of dimensions == infinitely big binary :-) < 1270667384 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. You compile it for a certain dimension. < 1270667400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it produces dimension-specific code. < 1270667401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1270667412 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh yourself. < 1270667428 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Meh. < 1270667441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today is a momentous day. < 1270667449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no iwc update! < 1270667453 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll write it in some wonderful Scheme macros that spit out C. < 1270667459 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHAT < 1270667467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, it's unheard of < 1270667467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Huh? Sure there is < 1270667472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. 2628 2010-04-07 < 1270667482 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lulz < 1270667486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1270667490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I in the wrong year or something? < 1270667496 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::slowpoke: < 1270667505 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, i'm being an idiot < 1270667516 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How unusual. < 1270667519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1270667521 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1270667883 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270668124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: FWIW I don't mind demands except when they've already been met on the site < 1270668214 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naming, of course, is the most important thing. Ascus, shiro, or hyphae? < 1270668226 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or other, ponders I. < 1270668241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shiro? < 1270668266 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's some thing of mycelium. < 1270668287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dictionary knew the other two but not that one < 1270668298 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WP "Mycelium" < 1270668320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1270668335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about "fairy circle" < 1270668368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No X-D < 1270668397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's shroom-related and distinctive: what could be better? < 1270668439 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrooms man < 1270668461 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about VEHICLE FOR TRIPPY < 1270668468 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want that angle, "Jah"? < 1270668478 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1270668491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah infinite dimensional funge should definitely use a psychoactive mushroom < 1270668493 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't want that angle. < 1270668510 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not infinite :P < 1270668534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270668554 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270668562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1270668573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1270668725 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270669196 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270669639 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.113.230.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270669642 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1270669658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yo. < 1270669682 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi pikhq < 1270669741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I wonder how small of a Brainfuck interpreter I could get. < 1270669764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: architecture is i386-linux-unknown, with the following programs: shish) < 1270669815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1270669843 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://impomatic.blogspot.com/2009/01/brainf-interpreter-in-redcode.html < 1270669880 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a contest about 10 years ago to write the smallest Brainfuck interpreter in x86 < 1270670093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't someone fit one entirely into ELF headers? < 1270670110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiler, and not quite. < 1270670128 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, there's a fun article somewhere about someone trying to write the shortest possible ELF Linux binary, that just did return 42; < 1270670137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same guy. < 1270670139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they even managed to fit many of the ELF headers into the ELF headers < 1270670143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html http://www.phreedom.org/solar/code/tinype/ < 1270670150 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1270670165 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also the guy who wrote the cgi interval game < 1270670173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1270670178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Google's INTERCAL style guide < 1270670184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which implies, indirectly, that he works for Google atm < 1270670238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaw. The Brainfuck compiler segfaults for LostKng.b < 1270670551 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*INTERCAL < 1270670561 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to go very soon. < 1270670695 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270670706 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye! < 1270670712 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270670716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gxis < 1270670963 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270670967 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I have a few more minutes. < 1270670998 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didud d duck cic. C < 1270671048 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1270671050 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270671946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Now with even more afk < 1270672439 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-220-149.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270672975 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270673651 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270673738 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270674088 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why'd you rename shsh -> shish? Or did I misread the first time? < 1270674163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Thought that was the name. < 1270674175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been reducing the binary size of shish even further. < 1270674184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you like the source to it ATM? < 1270674196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even a little bit. < 1270674199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HcSN < 1270674204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUAHAHAH. < 1270674215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notable features include not depending on libc. < 1270674230 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope those small* features get inlined. < 1270674235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grrf < 1270674242 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your f-word overwrote my f-word mid-sentence. < 1270674243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do. < 1270674298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/aforteforpiano/19e.ogg I can (nearly) play the first page of Nocturne 3 :) < 1270674328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably minimise things further by going into assembly, but, well. The shell is already sitting at 1107 bytes. < 1270674393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that you have an int main suggests strongly that your assertion that it doesn't depend on libc is false. < 1270674422 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The glibc-provided entry function does garbage you don't want or need. < 1270674432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dietlibc, actually. But yeah. < 1270674441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go copy in a _start and _exit. < 1270674485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1270674489 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just replace _start entirely. < 1270674491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. Bah. I'm just going to rename main _start and add _exit. < 1270674496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly :P < 1270674516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Copy it in from my "small-libc" directory. Which is where all those *other* functions come from. :P < 1270674532 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :P < 1270674667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :560 bytes. < 1270674681 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can replace ELF with a.out, can't you? < 1270674684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-nostdlib is such an awesome library. < 1270674730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If it's that small, I'd go ahead and take the -Os and hand-optimize it < 1270674733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Option. < 1270674764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, but I'd need to build a new compiler for that. < 1270674778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just manually munge the assembly into a.out. < 1270674785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of, does nasm still support a.out? < 1270674787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Alternatively, you could use objcopy like somebody who isn't a moron. < 1270674800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know about objcopy. < 1270674814 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't no how to phrase that not as an insult ^^ < 1270674819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sweetness. < 1270674936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Well, it's 32 bytes, but I get an exec format error. < 1270674941 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you *did* how to phrase it as such < 1270674961 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Most linuxes don't support a.out < 1270674966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me go attempt to compile in a.out support. < 1270674972 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1270674974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, Imma build the module. < 1270674983 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And remove ELF support too, who needs it :P < 1270675011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, I mean build the module for my *own* system. So I can test it without building a new kernel. ;) < 1270675020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh :P < 1270675050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if this 32-byte program is, in fact, a full shell. < 1270675056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. "Full". < 1270675122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: exec format error: ./shish.1.1 < 1270675125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaw. < 1270675160 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lesse your objcopy line < 1270675180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objcopy --output-target=a.out-i386-linux shish shish.1 < 1270675190 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple enough *shrugs* < 1270675196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's shish.1.1 then? < 1270675221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Different file. < 1270675258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems I have to use sstrip to get out the comment section from the ELF file so objcopy will actually... Copy. < 1270675268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I still get an exec format error. < 1270675317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump < 1270675320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file doesn't give wonky results? Maybe your a.out support is borkleborked :P < 1270675324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. objdump hates the a.out file. < 1270675335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contents of section .text: < 1270675335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump: out of memory allocating 18446744073709551584 bytes after a total of 0 bytes < 1270675341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270675355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the ELF file, it refuses to disassemble. < 1270675364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like the size of your .text section is -32 or something < 1270675365 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270675388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without sstrip, it handles the ELF file correctly. < 1270675398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to guess sstrip does weird stuff. < 1270675407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1270675431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, good to know. < 1270675521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh, maybe just strip ... objcopy can also strip out sections if you use enough objcopy-foo. < 1270675536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objcopy --output-target=a.out-i386-linux -S -R .comment shish shish.1 < 1270675547 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file shish.1 < 1270675549 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That produces a file that makes objdump report a file of 0s. < 1270675559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shish.1: Linux/i386 demand-paged executable (ZMAGIC), stripped < 1270675651 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270675668 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Idonno :P < 1270675998 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-74.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270676112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1270676123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does openoffice actually not support svg??? < 1270676161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor pdf... < 1270676167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll have to do with EPS. Lol < 1270676251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could make Linux support a DOS-COM-like format :P < 1270676264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm there is svg on my laptop in openoffice < 1270676265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1270676298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nearly a.out. < 1270676393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Minus the header ^^ < 1270676430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sure. If you a) patch kernel b) write a custom user space loader < 1270676447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270676464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or c) use some header + user space loader + the binfmt that allows selecting interpreter from header magic < 1270676677 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, it is possible to compile Linux without an executable format. < 1270676817 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How useful. < 1270677389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Near as I can tell, the Linux support for a.out is a lie. < 1270677431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that I've generated an a.out file as close to the "proper" way as I can. < 1270677464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generated a .o file, then stripped the .comment section, then had ld link and output an a.out file. < 1270677468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1270677481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does openoffice drop text when importing svg < 1270677489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eps it ended up using the preview at all time < 1270677525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well. a.out format appears to have overhead for this program, compared with ELF. < 1270677560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program statically allocates a lot of stuff. a.out does the static allocation via a series of 0s in the file. < 1270677571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF notes the size that's been statically allocated. < 1270677639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... why do you have any BSS at all? < 1270677646 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270677683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=49991 <-- aaaaaargh < 1270677703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Because. < 1270677741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, I could just stick that on the stack and see what size I get. < 1270677820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :496 bytes. < 1270677835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray. < 1270677892 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STILL TOO BIG < 1270678184 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270678199 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-239-165.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270678340 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270678355 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270678405 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270678459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is smaller than many of the tiny ELF utilities. < 1270678466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in C. < 1270678492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly normal C, though. < 1270678492 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270679046 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270679087 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270679270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in C ... for a ridiculous definition of C :P < 1270679347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1270679373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/MEcJ < 1270679399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not thinking of better ways to shrink that, short of removing the environment handling. < 1270679426 0 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270679430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270679470 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I can reboot my computer and reinstall my wireless drivers in the time it takes me to pingout from Freenode? impressive < 1270679471 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1270679481 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, rebuild and reinstall < 1270679498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compile my wireless drivers from source as there isn't a binary package for them yet < 1270679524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if (*(unsigned*)tokened[0] == 'set\0') < 1270679732 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270679832 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270679841 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270680227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ? < 1270680263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smaller check for set than four separate tests < 1270680276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1270680305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And similarly for cd, although you'll need a shift < 1270680322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... Don't think that works, though. The 'set\0' literal there, that is. < 1270680328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll futz with it in a bit. < 1270680341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC supports it IIRC. < 1270680359 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270680367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1270680380 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270680387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can always write it out as an integer if you're worried :-P < 1270680488 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270680734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't seem to work right. < 1270680766 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're gonna run into endianness issues. < 1270680770 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, endianness... yeah < 1270680777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'set\0' isn't right. < 1270680783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that'd do it. < 1270680817 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you're assuming x86 anyway it's '\0tes', neh? < 1270680822 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270680857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, making the if statements a *single* expression gets it down to 488 bytes. < 1270680873 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You compiling with optimization? < 1270680880 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, & is presumably smaller than && < 1270680881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270680893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to compare -Os and -O3 too < 1270680915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been. -O3 is the second-smallest optimization ATM. < 1270680945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"&" is *larger* than &&. < 1270680947 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you just care about the binary size, I reiterate that I'd be working on the asm level :-P < 1270680968 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270680975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't wanna! < 1270680980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270680982 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1270680988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go sleep then -> < 1270681232 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270681844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 463 bytes. < 1270681877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/XUcK < 1270681922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Unsigned short? WTF? < 1270681959 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's shorter that way. < 1270681972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess accidents made my code shorter. *shrug* < 1270682022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. But that's incorrect. Doesn't check the null. < 1270682930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270683076 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270684463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is writing Haskell in his [C++] Data Structures class < 1270684470 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'd rather not be doing this < 1270684485 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270684565 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write code in class that isn't related all the time < 1270684643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270684777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This code is related, just in the wrong language < 1270685009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not mutating anything, obviously < 1270685576 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Haskell is usually the wrong language) < 1270685625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, that's C++. < 1270685638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is ALWAYS the wrong language. < 1270685649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Yeah, actually. < 1270685696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is merely USUALLY the wrong language :P < 1270685703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies. < 1270685712 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is temporarily a Haskell fanatic < 1270685720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help addinterp < 1270685723 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. < 1270685772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what language is code? < 1270685788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one < 1270685789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language specified by < 1270685798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can also be a URL < 1270685855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can I make an interpreter for my own language, and use THAT interpreter to make antoher interpreter? < 1270685888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not unless Gregor has changed something recently < 1270685899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No meta-stdin. < 1270685917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1270685917 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1270685924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1270685924 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1270685937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is a supported language. You're good. < 1270686010 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Hewwo") < 1270686018 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hewwo < 1270686064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help userinterps < 1270686064 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. < 1270686071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help addinterp < 1270686071 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. < 1270686088 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270686111 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi\: You should either use a different alt nick or make myndzi\ your primary nick :P < 1270686115 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndz-lambda = awesome < 1270686157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is happy to see Haskell in there < 1270686158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls < 1270686159 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps < 1270686184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls | fmt -w400 < 1270686184 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps lib slox < 1270686195 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431] < 1270686203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls interps | fmt -w400 < 1270686203 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1l 2l Makefile adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen bfjoust boof c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal dimensifuck egobch egobf fukyorbrane gcccomp gforth_quit ghc glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl < 1270686222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell getLine >>= purStrLn < 1270686248 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!userinterps < 1270686249 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg < 1270686260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls slox | fmt -w400 < 1270686260 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slox < 1270686266 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!gregor wtf? < 1270686266 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? < 1270686267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls -l slox | fmt -w400 < 1270686267 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/ls: slox: Function not implemented < 1270686286 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270686300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls -l lib | fmt -w400 < 1270686300 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/ls: lib: Function not implemented < 1270686306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls lib | fmt -w400 < 1270686307 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dcc interp interp.orig < 1270686323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls lib/interp | fmt -w400 < 1270686323 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib/interp < 1270686338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh echo lib/interp | fmt -w400 < 1270686338 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib/interp < 1270686343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh cat lib/interp | fmt -w400 < 1270686343 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/bash < 1270686379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help; info < 1270686385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help info < 1270686385 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I have no help for info! < 1270686387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even. < 1270686395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1270686402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!info gregor < 1270686403 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null < 1270686411 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270686420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh pwd | fmt -w400 < 1270686420 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds < 1270686428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / | fmt -w400 < 1270686428 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr < 1270686534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls .. | fmt -w400 < 1270686534 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multibot_cmds < 1270686545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls ../.. | fmt -w400 < 1270686546 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :egobot.hg < 1270686573 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270688276 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wishes that humans weren't closed-source < 1270688330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the code is freely available, it's just that it's written in an esolang < 1270688680 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270688973 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-99-125.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270690358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270691492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that like saying that binaries are open-source, they're just written in machine code? < 1270691545 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's precisely like that, yes. < 1270691691 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270691957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, if the person in question quite literally did write it directly in machine code, they are entirely correct. < 1270691963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate them, but they are entirely correct. < 1270692097 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270692582 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, in this case, no one wrote the code. < 1270692589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the concept of being open- or closed- source is meaningless. < 1270692602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahah. < 1270692605 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no code. There is only Zuul. < 1270692824 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270693079 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270693677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then, don't cross the streams < 1270694003 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270694275 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270694602 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270694709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /Be/Bn//Bl/-[-{1}]//B\n/{}]+Be/ /Tn/Tb|0000*|Te/ BpBe Tn < 1270694737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270694755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /Be/Bn//Bl/-[-{1}]//B\n/{}]+B\e/ /Tn/Tb|0000*|Te/ BpBe Tn < 1270694755 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bp{}]+Be Tb|0000*|Te < 1270694917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /Be/Bn//Bl/-[-{1}]//B\n/{}]+B\e/ /Tn/\/T\\t\/Tt\// /T\t/Tb|0000*|Te/ BpBe Tn < 1270694917 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bp{}]+Be < 1270695025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /Be/Bn//Bl/-[-{1}]//B\n/{}]+B\e/ /Tn/\/T\\t\/Tt\// BpBe Tn < 1270695025 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bp{}]+Be < 1270695078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /Tn/\/T\\t\/Tt\// Tn < 1270695115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270695198 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-229.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270695261 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270695336 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270695569 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should write a Slashes interpreter in Haskell < 1270695583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ehird did < 1270695586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1270695599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he couldn't make it faster then the perl one, alas < 1270695611 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't Perl implemented in Haskell? < 1270695613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the perl one has issues though with large substitutions) < 1270695628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6 < 1270695636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is old perl < 1270695641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: An early Perl 6 implementation, Pugs, was in Haskell. < 1270695674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than < 1270695723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it too late to try to get involved with Google Summer of Code? < 1270695734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THey're probably looking for people who've actually looked at the stuff < 1270695877 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope; deadline for applications is the 9th < 1270695920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, but don't I need to have some idea of what I want to do, besides just "I'll do what this organization suggests on their GSoC page" < 1270695923 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270696148 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do < 1270696162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :socghop.appspot.com < 1270696218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't just say "I have never even looked at this code, but I'll try doing this suggestion", can I? < 1270696228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, and get accepted < 1270696395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1270696409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might hurt your chances though < 1270696429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure to mention your coding experience in the application < 1270696447 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see you over in #gsoc < 1270696460 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270696545 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270696589 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270697719 0 :cheater4!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-229.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270697814 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270697859 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270697896 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270698218 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270698471 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270700835 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270701633 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270702393 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1270702528 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..crap < 1270702537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to study. I did no studying. It is now midnight < 1270703687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You, sir, are a failure. < 1270703737 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270703759 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally, even < 1270704174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270704786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270707952 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270708371 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/pFyFN.jpg < 1270708410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what abouts it < 1270708431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you be sleeping? < 1270708434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1270708454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, the fact that a Chrome window thinks it's an Explorer window < 1270708474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the downloads window? < 1270708486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Downlaods is an explorer window < 1270708495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, that's not obvious, is it < 1270708496 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOld on < 1270708669 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/aWjxb.jpg < 1270708707 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crap, my real name's in that image < 1270708736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do realize, of course, that had you not said that, I never would have noticed < 1270708872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a guy named seth < 1270709069 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "seth" you mean? < 1270709086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought everyone here knew it anyway < 1270709088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1270709097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seth is a sexy name < 1270709103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sexy, sgeo < 1270711562 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270711841 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270713505 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270713599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270713600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270713649 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270713761 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270713844 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270714639 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1270716859 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270716949 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270717084 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi < 1270717346 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270717578 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270717852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1270718721 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270719209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270720351 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270722861 0 :Adrian^L!adrian@phalse.2600.COM JOIN :#esoteric < 1270724559 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270725705 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270725814 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270725935 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270727411 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-182.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270727555 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270727555 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1270730695 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270730865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gregor" is a sexy name :( < 1270732928 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270732941 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270732996 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270733027 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this was the right channel in the first place, then < 1270733304 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is always the right channel. < 1270733480 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-12-202.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270733590 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many people here are from the UK, and in their 20s? < 1270734563 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me! < 1270734608 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me! < 1270739264 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270740415 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270741083 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270744572 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270745812 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-182.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270745848 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270745972 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270745972 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1270746390 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270746397 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270746423 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270746761 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270746805 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270749678 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270750275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270751970 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270752792 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270752905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270753789 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270755055 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270755903 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270755927 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270756298 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270756348 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270757212 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-55-44.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270757587 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270757736 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: rapido < 1270758484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270758908 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270759737 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270760324 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270760464 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270760515 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270760904 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270761610 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270762394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they are doing something wrong... http://www.hackgreen.co.uk/How_To_Find_Us/how_to_find_us.htm < 1270762990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270763770 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1270763900 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270764029 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-182.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270764070 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270764070 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1270764428 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270764793 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270766908 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270767784 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270768439 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270768664 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-115.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270768899 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270769176 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270769770 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270770117 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270770187 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1270770604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270773553 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270774240 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270774514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It started out like Romeo and Juliet, but it ended in tragedy." < 1270774523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A part of my soul died when reading those words. < 1270774563 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Romeo and Juliet ALSO ended in tragedy! that "but" implies no contrast < 1270774571 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a travesty < 1270774593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that Romeo and Juliet started out implying tragedy. < 1270774599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Line 6, wasn't it? < 1270774627 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I've always assumed the actual play is boring so I've never read/watched it < 1270774643 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just know how it ends (everyone dies) < 1270774659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of Shakespeare's weaker plays, to be perfectly honest. < 1270774669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just the best-known. < 1270774690 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the worst work gets most famous... what else is new? < 1270774691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Somehow, as being a major romance, rather than a tale of a couple of overdramatic wangsty teenagers that kill themselves. < 1270774704 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, very EMO :P < 1270774741 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is *emo - EMO is just an acronym that happens to be in use at work < 1270776097 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "It started out like Romeo and Juliet, but it ended in tragedy." // what moron said this? :P < 1270776142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many a moron. < 1270776178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same sort of moron that thinks "starcrossed lovers" means they were fated to be together. < 1270776219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And ignores the words "take their life" immediately following. < 1270776716 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take their life...to the movies! < 1270777676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270778838 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270780216 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270780410 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270781406 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the language where the or-equal-to things are >= and =< in order to prevent confusion with arrows? < 1270781693 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang < 1270781736 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Any others? I think I saw that well before I even heard of Erlang < 1270783813 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270784596 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270785033 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270785082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of these days, I need to work on my kernel. So I can run shish on it. < 1270785106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. I should just go ahead and make shish in kernel mode and call it a day. :P < 1270785298 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've got something new for you to hate! < 1270785301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/910806 < 1270785422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That is such an awful use of the string literal operator. < 1270785454 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, yeah, that's just for testing < 1270785481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I hate the string literal operator much less than many of the other operators, if only because it's bleeding obvious that you're not using the normal operator. < 1270785519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If void operator ""(const char *c, size_t len) is a valid function, though, I'm going to cockpunch someone on the standards committee. < 1270785562 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270785575 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270785578 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to learn how to study < 1270785640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: unfortunately, it'll suffer scoping issue < 1270785642 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*issues < 1270785841 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270786289 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1270786430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270786951 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270787205 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270787497 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270787622 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270788783 0 :myndzi!~myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270788824 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270788828 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270789797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270790116 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1270790659 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270790706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's xkcd is literally side-splitting < 1270790725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So your sides were split, then? < 1270790743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I concur. I often find that xkcd splits the sides of my body. Oft in half. < 1270790751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1270790758 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270790793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes that pikhq didn't read it before saying that < 1270790833 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270790855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would be ironic. literally. < 1270790858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I did. < 1270790867 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1270790870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I would have reacted the same way. < 1270790876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270791428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270791829 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it take THIS effen long to load a web page FROM DISK < 1270792379 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my Hatetris AI fails badly < 1270792411 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even managed to break the replay functionality < 1270792589 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hatetris? < 1270792595 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that some sort of bastet thing? < 1270792622 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1270792627 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, better than bastet < 1270792632 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it seems a bit repetitive < 1270792649 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better is figuratively speaking i guess < 1270792655 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qntm.org/hatetris < 1270792660 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns out it's a little hard to make a good bad tetris algorithm! :) < 1270792685 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also < 1270792692 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i solved stacked odds ;p < 1270792747 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1270792752 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to have implemented some of srs(?) < 1270792775 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lol @ infinite S's < 1270792819 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is kinda cheating ;P < 1270792948 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't make it < 1270792971 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to get it to play against itself, bur I did not make Hatetris < 1270792986 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270793017 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's extremely easy to make a sequence of pieces that's basically unplayable, but it's not very fun < 1270793038 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try to use the S's to your advantage, and see what happens < 1270793043 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1270793050 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i said "lol infinite s's" < 1270793053 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i was still stacking them < 1270793057 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not just s's < 1270793066 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a line < 1270793067 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1270793086 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got 3 i think, but i lost interest immediately < 1270793324 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, 5 is easy < 1270793328 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the ai is too lame < 1270793338 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My AI is magically making a tower to the top after 3 moves < 1270793351 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1270793410 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think this ai can be exploited < 1270793422 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure though < 1270793466 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of how it works, any holes you leave will be filled least efficiently < 1270793472 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a two wide pit, it'll alternate s's and z's < 1270793485 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to account for slides though < 1270793496 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you can do t-spins < 1270793500 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t-spin? < 1270793505 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i don't think it'll be easy to make it give you a t < 1270793508 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can twist some other piece < 1270793511 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a z or s < 1270793604 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i understand, i think < 1270794055 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My AI is the worst tetris AI ever < 1270794157 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/95ew3.png < 1270794203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270794211 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gj < 1270794243 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that if i can set up a repeating pattern where a rotation will clear a line from what would have been deemed the worst piece, things would work out < 1270795215 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o yea, i got 6 < 1270795293 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, i got a t < 1270795695 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i got a z-spin single < 1270795695 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270796074 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my AI's a little smarter < 1270796080 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that that's saying much < 1270796092 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart enough to get 6? ;p < 1270796103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomly rolling a horizontal position and an orientation would be smarter than your AI < 1270796111 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smart enough to not put ALL the pieces on top of eachother < 1270796125 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code takes transforms < 1270796132 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it took positions, it would be much easier < 1270796154 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[I'm just hooking into the "find the best possible" subsystem of sam512's code] < 1270796461 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270796509 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270796510 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270796886 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270797022 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270797482 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270798129 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1270798264 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270799338 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-4-204.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270799803 0 :zerker!~4c5f8e31@gateway/web/freenode/x-lrvweztwynvmuqdn JOIN :#esoteric < 1270799999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270800000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270800730 0 :zerker!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1270801100 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270801343 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270802041 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270802966 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270803078 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270803144 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270803911 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270805773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270806941 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pingin' yer brain < 1270807230 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-4.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270807280 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270807281 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MigoMipo: no not you, but thanks for trying < 1270807308 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeholdMyGlory is lexicographically closer < 1270807323 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1270807337 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: What? < 1270807498 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid joke, nm < 1270807732 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i asked for ais, you came < 1270810305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUESS WHAT I'M DRINKING < 1270810305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1270810341 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sperm < 1270810363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270810366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is everyone saying that < 1270810366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.< < 1270810369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am drinking < 1270810370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270810372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A WARRIORS DRINK < 1270810373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1270810390 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270813032 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270813049 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270813244 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270813524 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270813627 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270813634 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-55-44.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1270814244 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270814668 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270814782 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270814883 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270815175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "a warriors drink" mean < 1270815771 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270817006 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.231.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270817322 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270817881 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270817939 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270818562 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270818637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dispatch! < 1270818644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coinductive data types are Hard. < 1270818661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why is everyone saying that <-- i think i can say, with some confidence, that it's your own damn fault. < 1270818724 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what is a coinductive type < 1270818740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: basically it's like an inductive data type except it can be infinite. < 1270818747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there is a lot more technical detail behind it, and there are restrictions < 1270818755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance you cannot say foo = foo, but you can say foo = cons 1 foo < 1270818757 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1270818763 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1270818767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there has to be a constructor; although there can be some wrapping around a constructor) < 1270818773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and recursing over them is restricted < 1270818784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly coq making this bit hard though :P < 1270818835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in coq coinductive types have the awesome side effect that proofs can be infinite... < 1270818870 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds kind of not cool < 1270818883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not literally infinite like, on disk < 1270818892 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1270818895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like you can prove things about infinite data types using the recursion mechanism... < 1270818895 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""infinite"" < 1270818899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course it's safe recursion...) < 1270818902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nice < 1270818913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: whatever you say zeilberger < 1270818936 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270818960 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, I mean ""infinite"" as in NOT REALLY INFINITE but QUOTE infinite UNQUOTE < 1270818970 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway zeilberger is the coolest ever <3<3<3 < 1270818982 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270819042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn finitists! < 1270819052 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D:D:D:D:D:D < 1270819060 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a finitist < 1270819067 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sayin < 1270819089 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY DUDE, WHAT IS THE CARDINALITY OF [0,1} < 1270819091 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]* < 1270819120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :74 and one half < 1270819129 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a lot < 1270819134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said < 1270819138 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expected at least a kilobyte < 1270819148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well i'm a hyperfinitist < 1270819247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lereah_: what are you doing with that } there < 1270819268 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typoing < 1270819464 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270819465 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: early escape today? < 1270819489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; just not so tired as I normally am. < 1270820176 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270821248 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270821409 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270821436 0 :tombom__!~tombom@82.18.202.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270821530 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270821587 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270821720 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270821938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:33:10 how many people here are from the UK, and in their 20s? < 1270821940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me also! < 1270821943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais is < 1270822134 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is in her 60s < 1270822187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in dog years. or thereabouts. < 1270822192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs away < 1270822672 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270823113 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah... but ey's not here < 1270823137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nomicker? < 1270823142 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270823159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spivak pronouns tend to be used most by nomic players. < 1270823165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly we usually use e instead of ey. < 1270823166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect SimonRC as well < 1270823179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of playing nomic? < 1270823184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probable < 1270823200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270823200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, of being in the uk and in his 20s < 1270823201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 uk < 1270823207 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26 < 1270823209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is in the uk and 20s seems likely < 1270823215 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... no, not nomic < 1270823234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should. :) < 1270824155 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270824307 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270824309 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270825121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791/ ;; this is exactly what i want to write my funge in < 1270825126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it isn't, you know, released < 1270825749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION muses over the name of his funge < 1270825774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I named it hyph, I couldn't stand to lose the ligature. < 1270825786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is pretty out if I use any sort of low-level language. < 1270825799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shiro just makes me think of Japanese. < 1270825810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ascus... well... "An ascus (plural asci; Greek for "skin bag") is the sexual spore-bearing cell produced in ascomycete fungi." < 1270825868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps ethanol. < 1270825944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1270825945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamonad < 1270825971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teliospore; telia/telium? < 1270825982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basidium; basidi(um|a)? < 1270825984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I never m < 1270825992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*basidium/basidia, for clearness < 1270825995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1270826083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :telia just makes me think of tequila (my objections don't have to be rational). < 1270826101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basidia is on the long side; basidium jumped off the Cliff of Long. < 1270826113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe I should stick to the hyphae/shiro/ascus trilogy. < 1270826171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, pronouncing hyphae just makes me think of hyphy, and then I want to jump off a bridge. < 1270826204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my mouth doesn't seem to enjoy pronouncing shiro... but then, I really don't want to name my funge interpreter "skin bag". < 1270826323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This user has never left the Northern Hemisphere." -- interestingly, this also implies you've either immigrated from the southern hemisphere to the northern and then stayed there, or that you also have never left the southern hemisphere :) < 1270826331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never left the Northern, Southern, Eastern or Western hemispheres! < 1270828239 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hang on... < 1270828248 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the other 2 hemispheres called? < 1270828263 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270828344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? Land/water hemisphere? < 1270828353 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm... < 1270828365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am confused now. < 1270828413 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rotate" the earth such that you're looking at it, such that you can see the "seams" of both the north/south and east/west hemispheres, and you're looking straight at the intersection < 1270828424 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the hemisphere that you can see called? < 1270828430 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also s/can/can't/ < 1270828502 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colloquially the "front" and the "back"... but i wondered if they had official names < 1270828599 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did that make sense? < 1270828659 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not: take a carving knife down the +90 and -90 meridians < 1270829256 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all the hemispheres have a name (the earth has *infinite* hemispheres) < 1270830462 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why not dust off your previous funge attempt < 1270830543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You think it had basically any code? No. :) < 1270830562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yiyus: infinite, are you sure? < 1270830577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Besides, I want to be some sort of contester as far as speed goes, so out goes Haskell. < 1270830639 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was thinking that it might get you kick-started a bit so that you don't have to spend a week figuring out a name and then another figuring out a language and another figuring out directory structure or whatever you're wont to do next < 1270830650 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: an hemisphere is a half of an sphere, and you can cut it through infinite planes < 1270830657 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yiyus: well, yes, but... that;s the other "logical pair" < 1270830685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I haven't weeks! Hopefully I will start coding today. < 1270830686 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: I don't know of any names for them < 1270830698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language is leaning towards C, though detest it I do. < 1270830718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the æ you can use D ;-) < 1270830786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*If you want the and uncountable billions of years of suffering, you can use D. < 1270830797 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, there's a tradeoff < 1270830848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you haven't given up on D. :) < 1270830860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice to have Schemeish macros so that I can define my n-dimensional fungespace. < 1270830868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess nobody actually uses dimensions above two, though. < 1270830881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI2 is such a metaprogramming mess that it'd be insane to switch over at this point < 1270830932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some test cases for trefunge which I guess is a "use" < 1270830969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is some sort of editor written in Trefunge, but I don't care. < 1270830982 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the only "actual use" I know of < 1270830988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can recall at this moment < 1270831073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And unefunge is basically identical to befunge, isn't it? < 1270831098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's as identical to befunge as trefunge is :-P < 1270831121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What errors arise from interpreting Unefunge as one-line Befunge code? < 1270831128 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All possible? < 1270831133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1270831136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p should pop one coordinate, not two, for example < 1270831139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 22+ behaves differently? < 1270831139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1270831146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that messes with vectors changes < 1270831149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now how much actual Unefunge code is there? < 1270831154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero that I know of < 1270831159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have test cases for it :-P < 1270831178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you guys need to write documentation for how Befunge stuff actually works. < 1270831178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because I trust that if my shit works for >1 it works for 1 < 1270831188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1270831193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the specification appears to be less of an accurate descriptor of Befunge than, say, the toilet paper I used this morning. < 1270831213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology tries to be helpful in that regard < 1270831213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*description < 1270831228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but it doesn't say "do this", just "ha ha you did this specific thing wrong. do this instead" :-) < 1270831251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("do this" `isInfixOf` "ha ha you did this specific thing wrong. do this instead") == True < 1270831295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== True? A pointless expression if I ever saw one. < 1270831307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Mycology requires you to first make the errors. < 1270831314 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The readme of Mycology explains some of the hairier non-fingerprint stuff < 1270831341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assigning every instruction to initially do nothing should work decently well < 1270831370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from not telling me anything at all. < 1270831384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, okay. I suppose the best place to start is indeed Fungespace? < 1270831392 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology should then usually tell you "BAD: foo did bar instead of baz" < 1270831408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it do that if all instructiosn do nothing? < 1270831416 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you want the æ - the what? < 1270831417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*instructions < 1270831424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your code is expected to create the function run(code) where code is a Befunge-98 source. The code argument will be a string. Lines are separated by "\n". < 1270831424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/ < 1270831426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's some contest < 1270831431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think they realised? < 1270831455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/entries/cyrnus/ I somehow doubt this passes Mycology < 1270831458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well for example if I do 01g and expect to get 2 and you instead do nothing, I'll say "BAD: I got 1 instead of 2" < 1270831469 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hey, that's new. < 1270831472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Not if the output instruction does nothing. < 1270831482 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what's the "gimmick" to your funge? < 1270831487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- This is a mostly standard compliant non-concurrent Befunge-98 interpreter < 1270831490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/entries/vaeyl/ < 1270831491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, you can do the obvious ones. < 1270831495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: It's just Yet Another Befunge-98 Interpreter. < 1270831508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay. :P < 1270831523 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is the (i'm not pasting it again, damnit) ligature important? < 1270831533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want to name it hyph\ae. < 1270831541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or shiro, or ascus. But probably not ascus. < 1270831543 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1270831553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Read the readme: sanity.bf expects 0123456789.@ to work, IIRC < 1270831562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay, okay, I'll download Mycology. < 1270831569 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was me thinking of a funge language that uses it as an instruction < 1270831588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs those others through Mycology just for fun < 1270831627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a preminent Befunge implementer, and wrote the hyph interpreter. < 1270831632 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... that's a rather gross idea: < 1270831637 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, except they only define the run() < 1270831639 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if a funge could fork? < 1270831668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: It can; t. < 1270831675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Trivial wrapper to do, surely. < 1270831678 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'alise: And ascus... well... "An ascus (plural asci; Greek for "skin bag") is the sexual spore-bearing cell produced in ascomycete fungi."' <<< how about just 'skin bag'? < 1270831683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: :D < 1270831694 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't mean befunge itself, but a befunge variant < 1270831698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First entry: vaeyl. Doesn't get through the Befunge-93 area. < 1270831701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: p modifies space < 1270831701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command < 1270831706 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unknown command repeated ad infinitum) < 1270831714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :D < 1270831729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like putting a retarded kid in a wheelchair through a military obstacle course < 1270831739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me wonder if any of these do the stuff that's even quite clearly explained in the spec correctly < 1270831782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might actually be that it can't handle \r\n < 1270831786 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on? < 1270831787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eminate would be a nice interpreter name < 1270831798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be nice and try a nuxified one < 1270831802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: some kids wrote some "befunge-98" interpreters in lua for some contest < 1270831804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suck lol < 1270831824 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, much better < 1270831842 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaeyl dies due to k not working as expected, unsurprisingly enough < 1270831861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 0k^ doesn't execute ^ < 1270831861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 1k[ turns left at [ < 1270831861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 4k # does nothing and hits # < 1270831861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 2k ;;;5 does nothing and hits 5 < 1270831861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 2k# jumps once from k < 1270831863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: ak47k$ leaves 3 fours on stack < 1270831866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack < 1270831872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the last /is/ kind of unexpected. < 1270831885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270831889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many should it leave? < 1270831893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three < 1270831908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right because 2k executes 6 twice, then moves onto 6 < 1270831916 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1270831928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nkx, assuming x doesn't fuck with the ip or similar shenanigans = x^(n+1) < 1270831932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolftankk is either damn slow or buggy; 20 seconds and counting and it hasn't printed anything < 1270831947 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Unless n is zero < 1270831953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270831958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's better to leave TRDS-related surgery until after I've got something working, yeah? < 1270831965 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very yeah < 1270832001 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have a comment in my TRDS impl saying essentially "I don't know wtf to do in this case but this hack seems to work for all existing programs, maybe it's right, maybe not" < 1270832005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea of program surgery. < 1270832015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be some sort of new-age non-textual editor based on program surgery. < 1270832018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That dates from my firstish implementation of TRDS and still stands) < 1270832025 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, wolftankk isn't doing anything < 1270832075 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are these interps and why do they exist WHAT'S GOING ON < 1270832083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEATH < 1270832086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEATH IS ALL-SURROUNDING < 1270832095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jerry did pretty well < 1270832104 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 0k^ executes ^ at ^ < 1270832112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on! That's explicitly in the spec < 1270832119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1 < 1270832119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack < 1270832123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That latter one is a rare sight < 1270832154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, I'm not sure that anything that got that far has triggered it previously < 1270832166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have a corresponding GOOD so I mostly forget it's there < 1270832179 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :101-{} should leave stack as 1 -1? why not 1 0 < 1270832184 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err reverse those < 1270832186 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270832201 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't {} nop? < 1270832205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because read the spec or Mycology's readme :-P < 1270832211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not < 1270832223 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay i must remember it wrongly then < 1270832232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, jerry failed at i somehow < 1270832238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoulThe directions were generated in the order < 1270832239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d have pushed (60, 119) as Va < 1270832239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? was met 33 timesThe directions were generated in the order < 1270832239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lua: /home/deewiant/arst.lua:654: bad argument #1 to 'char' (invalid value) < 1270832239 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't used 98 features like ever, just read the spec once < 1270832247 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it managed to find a t somehow < 1270832314 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyrnus fails at k as did vaeyl < 1270832351 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So hey, their votes actually reflect how well they did in Mycology :-P < 1270832373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps cumulate would be a good name. < 1270832374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except cyrnus should be a bit lower because it doesn't have SGML spaces (not tested yet but visible in the output) < 1270832383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr, I really want a decent name. < 1270832385 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270832390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI and cfunge and RC/Funge are shit names. < 1270832395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270832402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's in a name < 1270832431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name is the thing! < 1270832432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That which we call a Befunge-98 interpreter by any other name would execute as sweet < 1270832441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is the name, modulo our human vision. < 1270832445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But non-humans do not use Befunge! < 1270832466 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a "good" name to you < 1270832476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, working on a funge interpreter? < 1270832479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270832481 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI is from the days when I just called every idea an acronym because I couldn't think of anything < 1270832498 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270832506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memorable, short, easily pronounceable (I am aware this one is subjective), no icky connotations, and sthetically pleasing. < 1270832514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last one is subjective too; shock and horror. < 1270832526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, don't say "easily pronounceable" to anyone from Finland < 1270832531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a *really* bad move < 1270832535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270832539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270832543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Aseroe" and "mutinus" are nice possible names... < 1270832550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're just really obscure funge geni < 1270832551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how do you pronounce them? < 1270832557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*genera < 1270832564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270832572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ass a row and mutin- (ala "mutiny") us. < 1270832578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ass a row is admittedly not the most pleasant thing to say. < 1270832579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270832581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270832591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be wrong about their pronunciations: I'm just guessing. < 1270832598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The genus name is derived from the Ancient Greek words Asē/αση 'disgust' and roē/ροη 'juice'. < 1270832598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah, hardly better than "as a column" < 1270832602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disgust juice, ass a row! < 1270832647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/images/mut6.jpg <- mutinus < 1270832649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I'm unlikely to have much time for funge during the next few weeks. Probably not until the summer. < 1270832650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck at this < 1270832652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why does pronounceableness matter for a Funge interpreter, it's not like anybody will ever talk about it < 1270832665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't get people talking aloud in your head on IRC? < 1270832669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You even have a logo! < 1270832677 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't really subvocalize < 1270832681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only a logo, a phallic logo! < 1270832681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You don't get people talking aloud in your head on IRC? <-- no? < 1270832682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not much < 1270832696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure everyone who reads has some sort of voice, because it's just the interpretation of the word. < 1270832779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1270832790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll call it descartes, from the cordinates < 1270832791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when reading books perhaps < 1270832807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be lahey < 1270832828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that begs for a fingerprint ESCH! < 1270832850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from MC Escher obviously) < 1270832861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1270832864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Heh, true. < 1270832872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is Lahry intended to be pronounced? < 1270832874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Lahey < 1270832878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that does weird geometry < 1270832886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, who *was* Lahey? < 1270832896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Can't remember < 1270832900 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Can't know < 1270832904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably some guy on a mailing list who generalised Fungespace. < 1270832909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably < 1270832916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes that sounds familiar < 1270833052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with funge names is that fungi are basically [...] gross. < 1270833057 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270833067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies < 1270833079 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270833122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria ? < 1270833139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That mushroom has smegma. < 1270833144 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Amanita_muscaria1.jpg pretty, no < 1270833150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--was honestly my first reaction. < 1270833180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have a dirty mind? < 1270833189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's what it really looks like you see. < 1270833212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1270833226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and it is one of the more common toxic mushrooms iirc < 1270833230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in Sweden < 1270833401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about chanterelles? (Interwiki indicates that is the English name for them) < 1270833413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1270833414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always found them ugly < 1270833423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1270833433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like their taste. But ugly? nah < 1270833471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reishi is a nice name but I don't feel like the connotations. < 1270833480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zomg miraculous chinese health. < 1270833490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You and your connotations :-P < 1270833497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270833497 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270833607 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is shi death or something in japanese < 1270833610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as far as I can tell from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reishi#Lingzhi_research_and_therapeutic_usage it *may* actually work. At least it looks like some studies suggest it may have some beneficial properties < 1270833617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't care < 1270833621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1270833626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, don't care about? < 1270833627 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like your interpreter, it may actually even work ;-) < 1270833636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :D < 1270833640 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: your time to shine < 1270833650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: It is also four < 1270833675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And probably a bunch of other things) < 1270833718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commandment. < 1270833727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I wish there was a good fast language. < 1270833736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't we all < 1270833797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know a lot of plants do have medicinal uses, or had before we started synthesising the active compounds? (Of course, a lot of other plants turned out to be less beneficial ;P) < 1270833808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish python wasn't as fast, there's no challenge < 1270833816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh... < 1270833820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course. Aspirin. < 1270833828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is a famous example yes < 1270833833 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Penicillin < 1270833837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that < 1270833840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are quite a lot of other ones < 1270833843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, still, google reishi: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=reishi&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:unofficial&client=firefox-a < 1270833845 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270833854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Cancer/Reishi". Er, no. < 1270833859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Reishi Qi Booster". Er, no. < 1270833859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Google CCBI? < 1270833868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I do not have to be shit at naming just because you are :) < 1270833874 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1270833945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err, actually that link I gave before, seems to cite some studies indicating there *are* such effects. However, I lack the expertise (and access to journals) to check the sources it cite. < 1270833955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just trying to get a balanced view here < 1270833958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They scientifically measured qi? < 1270833960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha. < 1270833972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nah, it was "Laboratory studies have shown anti-neoplastic effects of fungal extracts or isolated compounds against some types of cancer. In an animal model, Ganoderma has been reported to prevent cancer metastasis,[10] with potency comparable to Lentinan from Shiitake mushrooms.[11]" < 1270834000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The site it is on is not so reassuringly reputable: < 1270834003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Red Reishi (Ganoderma Lucidum), commonly known as Ling Zhi in Chinese, is a herbal mushroom known to have miraculous health benefits." < 1270834007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# When it is taken regularly, it can restore the body to its natural state, enabling all organs to function normally." < 1270834010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that quote was from wikipedia < 1270834014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1270834019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wich of course isn't reputable < 1270834021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that whatever the studies it has a connotation. < 1270834032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the site the Cancer/Reishi page was on. < 1270834040 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Meh, now you got me thinking about renaming CCBI, too. Just pick a name and be done with it :-P < 1270834048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I like the current name < 1270834052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with it? < 1270834054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You should name it to something with no more than one capital letter. < 1270834063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1270834064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Says the one who picked the name "cfunge". < 1270834071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes and? < 1270834074 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270834077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see what is wrong with cfunge too < 1270834079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly a name of stunning eloquence. < 1270834085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1270834089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not: Googlable, pronouncable, æsthetic < 1270834091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a good and solid name still < 1270834112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can pronounce CCBI quite okay. The double C is a slight issue however < 1270834124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that it isn't googable is a larger problem < 1270834125 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still four syllables < 1270834146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you pronounce SCSI? < 1270834155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See see bee eye. Crappy pronunciation. < 1270834166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard it something like that wikipedia suggests: "scuzzy" < 1270834168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically this all comes down to a matter of findability, and sthetics. < 1270834182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well yes, it has that pronunciation. < 1270834183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The former is objectively measurable; and some people have the latter, some people don't. < 1270834191 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI doesn't, and isn't very amenable to one. :-P < 1270834193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see AnMaster as a particularly sthetic person. < 1270834194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but it isn't spelled like that < 1270834196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1270834204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no vowels in SCSI. < 1270834210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait < 1270834213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the I < 1270834214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1270834219 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you don't /have/ to pronounce CCBI as four separate letters < 1270834221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI also has just one < 1270834224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can pronounce CCBI as "suzuby". < 1270834227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that was my point < 1270834229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like you don't have to pronounce SCSI as such < 1270834231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The z is like the z in "scuzzy". < 1270834232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nice < 1270834240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You wouldn't want to, though. < 1270834242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But my point was that there isn't a very nice such pronunciation of it :-P < 1270834249 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yep < 1270834259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, actually in Swedish jargon I believe SCSI is pronounced more like "skassi" (that is spelled in Swedish) < 1270834276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't have that "buzzing" z-sound in Swedish < 1270834311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the sk would be quite similar to sc in the English variant) < 1270834339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, SCSI -> scuzzy isn't a very "obvious" pronunciation to me either < 1270834339 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"buzzing" == voiced < 1270834345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you onomatopise the sound a bee makes? < 1270834350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzzz < 1270834354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "surr"? < 1270834355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Swedish. < 1270834357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you like MAKE ROOM FOR MAH SHROOM as a name < 1270834359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Surr?! < 1270834365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surr in Finnish too < 1270834368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not pronounced like it would be in English at all < 1270834369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's shit. < 1270834385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we have a completely different u sound, and quite a different r sound < 1270834390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Your r's are shit, so :-P < 1270834399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what Deewiant said < 1270834408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I have a rhotic accent or not? I forget. < 1270834411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is that good or bad? :P < 1270834417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270834418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ever heard someone from Skåne pronounce the letter r? < 1270834420 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are boring and unreachable elsewhere, let's try this one < 1270834421 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find_consts(f, inputs, g) := for k = 0 to infinity { n_0_loop: for n_0 = 0 to infinity { for n = n_0 to infinity { for i in inputs { if len(trace(f(inputs(i)))) > k*g(n) then continue n_0_loop }; return (n_0, k) } } } } < 1270834425 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does this do < 1270834442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what language? < 1270834445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff < 1270834448 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pseudocode < 1270834454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270834457 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a good reason for that < 1270834458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what Deewiant said < 1270834463 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can explain notation if you like < 1270834491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no I already found out what it does. I was coming to the same conclusion as Deewiant, he was a bit quicker than me though. < 1270834507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff is correct, but not specific enough < 1270834513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it does just what it says, I can't think of any clearer way of expressing that < 1270834514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, someone just name my funge. < 1270834520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :D < 1270834521 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: mehfunge < 1270834522 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but what consts < 1270834530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Fuqoo. < 1270834530 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are f, inputs and g < 1270834530 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm serious < 1270834535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: oo is pronounced u. < 1270834548 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Funqoo < 1270834553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungoo? < 1270834555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gooey-Funge < 1270834566 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I don't know, they could be anything as far as I can tell < 1270834568 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: there's a very short explanation for what it does < 1270834570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNKu < 1270834570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Hydnum coralloides < 1270834573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\\\\\\\\ < 1270834574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks nice < 1270834579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dsc04896-Hydnum-coralloides.jpg < 1270834581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: What's trace? < 1270834609 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trace(f(x)) runs f with arg x and trace provides a trace of this run < 1270834614 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what f did < 1270834620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ookay < 1270834635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the explanation would be nicer if i change it a bit... < 1270834643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, then how is the trace formatted? < 1270834644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's some kind of big-O thing < 1270834650 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270834650 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270834655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, since it seems to take the length of the trace.... < 1270834658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking for the appropriate constants < 1270834671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the length of a string of it? Or the length of the trace in number of steps? < 1270834671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program f's time complexity is O(g), and you look for the invisible constants < 1270834682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, something like that < 1270834700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd help if it weren't on one line but yeah, I can see that :-P < 1270834711 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, probably < 1270834713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hm yes that seems to make some sense < 1270834715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat < 1270834762 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = -1; for i = 0 to infinity {a = -a}; print a^2 < 1270834791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...don't take offense, that wasn't meant as a challenge, i just wrote it for some reason) < 1270834837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You do realize you don't need a name to code < 1270834846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sure I do: namespaces < 1270834852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "placeholder" < 1270834858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ew. < 1270834869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You and your æsthetics, again < 1270834890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You can also code a reasonable deal without using namespaces < 1270834908 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aesthetics are the best ethics < 1270834935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah but meh < 1270834935 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well is < 1270834937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270834960 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1270834961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language btw? < 1270834978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'll just think back to my statement about you taking weeks before you get started :-) < 1270834991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 80% of that is deciding the name < 1270835077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just code something that does a bit of what it should. Then I start doing proper version control, extend the program a bit, then I decide I need a non-collection-of-bad-hacks build system, then I code some more and so on < 1270835094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what would you have called a short utility program for finding duplicate files? < 1270835104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you wouldn't have picked the one I did: find_dups < 1270835111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more like a function name than a project name. < 1270835114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call it duplicates. < 1270835119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ duplicates foo.txt < 1270835122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270835135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What what < 1270835136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it recurses through dirs. < 1270835142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ duplicates foo/ < 1270835144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what? < 1270835153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what would it even *do* on a single file < 1270835162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: xargs foo.txt | duplicates < 1270835168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xargs < foo.txt* < 1270835170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do something like ~/bin/find_dups images porn ;) < 1270835175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever, gah < 1270835177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail at xargs < 1270835186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes completely < 1270835194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xargs duplicates foo.txt maybe < 1270835200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1270835204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xargs duplicates < foo.txt < 1270835208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh typoed that < 1270835211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270835218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xargs is hard ;-P < 1270835222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes that has some downsides when you hit the argument list limit. Since it needs to know *all* the files to compare < 1270835229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you want to find all dups < 1270835237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you get one file at a time it is fairly useless < 1270835266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and I hit the allocation limit on cmd line args. Which on linux is based on something in ulimit nowdays < 1270835298 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Which is why "duplicates foo.txt" instead of xargs < 1270835364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agaricus_bisporus < 1270835377 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270835382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right. But then you need to provide a list of those in there < 1270835397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like find huge_dir -type f > foo.txt < 1270835403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and that was the implication from the start < 1270835409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1270835444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there are some small theoretical advantages with not doing it < 1270835459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1270835461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it is fairly irrelevant for practical purposes < 1270835477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but consider disk cache. The program uses stat() to read the file sizes < 1270835485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't have to check as many files against each other < 1270835490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only need to check those with the same size < 1270835523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you process a large enough nested dir tree, the file info and such may no longer be in disk cache < 1270835540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which they are likely to be after just getting a listing of all files in the dir you are working on < 1270835569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so theoretically, and depending on how the filesystem stores the file metadata, recursing in the program can be faster ;P < 1270835585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I very much doubt it matters practically though < 1270835632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, I'll just call it funge for now as a placeholder. < 1270835634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to decide language :P < 1270835637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270835638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270835651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Use C as a placeholder < 1270835662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know, "funge" is a bad name. It could look like an attack on other implementations. Like trying to steal the show < 1270835667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I suggest that is the case < 1270835672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that it may *look* like that < 1270835676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You really think I'll name it that? < 1270835677 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a placeholder < 1270835687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "placeholder"; please look up words in the dictionary before talking about them in future. < 1270835692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but placeholders has a tendency to stick < 1270835693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Besides, stinkhorn used to be called befunge98... < 1270835697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1270835702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: C is a pretty bad placeholder, considering it's nitty and gritty :P < 1270835709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :-P < 1270835730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, I'd write it in C-Scheme in a heartbeat. < 1270835741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-Scheme? < 1270835751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds interesting < 1270835775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is C-Scheme? < 1270835788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791/4 < 1270835788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google gave me just "Scheme for C programmers" and such < 1270835805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full thread including first post with broken BBCode: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791 (nothing interesting really apart from /4) < 1270835879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is the current implementation? < 1270835895 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In your dreams < 1270835895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously nowhere, it's just some random forum post ffs. < 1270835905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus "I'd write it in" not "I'll write it in". < 1270835908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "All of the above works. It's a pretty damn easy thing to write." fooled me < 1270835925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Exists" != "released" < 1270835936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes. I was considering that. < 1270835940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's easy to write. < 1270835946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so first step: Implement C-Scheme < 1270835948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So I've written some really basic parser in Scheme which you pass a list of s-expressions and from that it produces C code." < 1270835949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple. < 1270835953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And /that/ is the task I don't want to do. < 1270835958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See how this works? < 1270835963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1270836111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can't use C directly. The thing doesn't even have proper strings. < 1270836120 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++! < 1270836137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1270836205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it isn't like Funge uses a lot of strings. A few yes, but not many < 1270836236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were talking about C-Scheme < 1270836250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1270836256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not about "funge"? < 1270836258 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-09 19:58:42 ( AnMaster) alise, so first step: Implement C-Scheme < 1270836259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-09 19:58:49 ( alise) AnMaster: And /that/ is the task I don't want to do. < 1270836263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-04-09 20:01:27 ( alise) I mean, I can't use C directly. The thing doesn't even have proper strings. < 1270836268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last one was for funge. < 1270836272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1270836275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, [can't use it for funge] pretty obviously < 1270836299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just couldn't connect requiring strings and Funge. < 1270836310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, idea: call it 0"egnuf">:#,_@ < 1270836310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's just such an inconvenient language. < 1270836313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate allocating memory. < 1270836316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hate it, hate it, hate it. < 1270836328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I just couldn't connect requiring strings and Funge. <-- indeed < 1270836336 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it improved performance by a veritable crock < 1270836343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: A crock of shit? < 1270836344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what did? memory allocation? yes < 1270836352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manual such for funge < 1270836353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1270836371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funge really doesn't gain very much from a GC most of the time < 1270836385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: A crock of performance, obviously < 1270836396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allocating memory in the large, yes; but for tiny temporary structures? < 1270836410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately there's this thing called the stack :-P < 1270836452 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH I'm still worried that using "new" in some tiny temporary structures is messing up my performance because Tango's GC is so shit < 1270836475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fuck Tango. < 1270836493 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not many alternatives :-) < 1270836512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course "shit" is relative < 1270836517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~D is an alternative. < 1270836518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's decent enough most of the time < 1270836533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Like said, not any more ;-P < 1270836545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you suck rabies. < 1270836554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I don't < 1270836556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should use ML and compile it with MLton or something, but ML is crufty. < 1270836562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OR DO YOU? < 1270836569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly sure I don't < 1270836574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCaml? < 1270836589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugly, but maybe preferable to C by your standards < 1270836590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If ML is crufty, what do you think my opinion of OCaml is? < 1270836606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better than that of C? < 1270836616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing is like Cruft Central in Cruft Town, in Cruftaska, "State of the Cruft", in the good old United States of Cruft. < 1270836630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about Factor < 1270836643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~D is an alternative. <-- "about D"? < 1270836644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh, no. < 1270836649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it a weird smiley? < 1270836649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "not". < 1270836653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lern2asciilogic < 1270836662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh ¬ < 1270836673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, try altgr-shift-` < 1270836679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¤ < 1270836679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the dead key ` < 1270836687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is shift-4 for me < 1270836689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¤ < 1270836691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, I have no dead keys. < 1270836691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1270836695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For two, my alt-gr key is an alt. < 1270836697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, shift-4 is 4? < 1270836699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For three, no. < 1270836701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1270836707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I know! < 1270836708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, weird < 1270836710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll write it in MYTHRYL! < 1270836735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is that? < 1270836738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270836744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like a fantasy parody < 1270836747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of our favourite language scapegoats: http://mythryl.org/ < 1270836753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like ML but shittier! < 1270836775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, worse than "Plain English"? or whatever the name was < 1270836779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no. < 1270836782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Plain English isn't functional. < 1270836785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no worry then < 1270836849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Mythryl has "stipulate X herein Y end", which is the same as "Y where X end". < 1270836863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupefying. < 1270836932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define stipulate < 1270836936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define herein where < 1270836943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define end < 1270836943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1270836945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read my sentence again. < 1270836948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell == Mythryl < 1270836953 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, darn < 1270836958 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1270836959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just, the terminology :D < 1270836959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh darn what? < 1270836966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I flipped it < 1270836977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270836994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i want something like c that can manage memory and has a nicer syntax < 1270836996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something with := in it. < 1270837009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, presumably you would dislike this mushroom too? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Agaricus_bisporus_%28Cup_mushroom,_doubled%29.jpg < 1270837016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I can see anything wrong in it < 1270837023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You don't find that gross in any way? < 1270837030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no? why would it be? < 1270837038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trees fuse together too sometimes < 1270837054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at it - like, with your eyes. < 1270837071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nature. I'm not a biology student, but when younger I was quite interested in biology. Spent a lot of time out in nature. < 1270837110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, forests, travelling by foot. And even seeing the day star! < 1270837130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but no I don't see anything gross. < 1270837135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unusual certainly < 1270837136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, take your condescending "I'm-in-touch-with-nature" out back and shoot it. For two, I'm not dissing the mushroom, I'm just saying it looks gross. < 1270837158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what I was saying was "I *was* in touch with nature" < 1270837163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying I still am < 1270837174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "travelling by foot" bit put me off nowdays < 1270837175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as condescending. < 1270837180 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mushroom does not look gross < 1270837183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts* < 1270837188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mushroom is SEXY! < 1270837192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270837222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the *hell* are you seeing in it. Heck you don't need ink blots.... < 1270837235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need a mushroom, and not even eating it. < 1270837257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So thinking eating a mushroom is sexy is OK? :P < 1270837279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have no idea. I'm not a psychologist. < 1270837286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Champignons_Agaricus.jpg < 1270837295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now don't say that is gross too < 1270837318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BoroughMarketMushrooms.jpg < 1270837339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I agree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jreishi2.jpg looks gross though < 1270837525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Gah, you're right; I'm stuck on language. < 1270837533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not haskell? < 1270837534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no /good/ languages. Why not? < 1270837544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Haskell sucks :P Okay, it doesn't suck, but it's too slow for this. < 1270837544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you praised haskell before < 1270837546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it has warts. < 1270837556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay. Agda then? < 1270837557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq? < 1270837562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CoqFunge < 1270837586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet there isn't a befunge98 implementation in agda before < 1270837595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge93 *maaaybe* but also unlikely < 1270837600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda is most certainly /not/ anything more than a research tool. < 1270837601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: "Shi" is the number 4. < 1270837607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: "Shin" is death. < 1270837608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and? < 1270837614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been proved inconsistent several times -- admittedly those are usually fixed quickly -- < 1270837628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's basically a mathematical research vehicle with no programming conveniences. < 1270837635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about coq then? < 1270837640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Eh? Isn't "shin" "new"? < 1270837643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq could do it if not for the fact that, you know -- BEFUNGE IS TURING COMPLETE, and all Coq programs terminate. < 1270837648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, again, there's very little programming facility. < 1270837662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but befunge is not in practise TC. It may run forever though < 1270837668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is indeed an issue < 1270837669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the latter. < 1270837683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270837685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq/Agda are not appropriate tools for this task in the slightest. < 1270837690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also true. < 1270837708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I.e. I maintain that "shi" == death < 1270837710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Though, "shin" is only "new" in compounds. < 1270837738 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270837746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Deewiant: what language? < 1270837755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nihongo < 1270837755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Japanese. < 1270837755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Japanese. < 1270837761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, okay < 1270837763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? < 1270837767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :日本語 < 1270837783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Strictly speaking, it's more that "shini" is "death" and it gets elided to "shin". < 1270837797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are the shelves adjustable in the first one? < 1270837802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Har har har. < 1270837803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry for that one) < 1270837809 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shini" I've only seen in compounds myself :-P < 1270837831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you speak Japanese? < 1270837837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very little < 1270837839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270837842 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Understand a bit more < 1270837845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than I do certainly < 1270837852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :君が勉強するはずと思う。 < 1270837864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the degree sign is usually at the top < 1270837877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Good thing that's a period, then. < 1270837878 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read kana/kanji, not at all any more (used to know the kana decently) < 1270837889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I'm being silly I know) < 1270837906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, you don't remember kana? That sucketh. < 1270837913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION threatens Deewiant using a kata instead < 1270837932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, what sucketh is that I don't know of any decent kana->romajifier :-P < 1270837960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thou shalt not use romaji for Japanese. < 1270837963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nihongo.j-talk.com/kanji/? :-P < 1270837963 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, at least wiktionary agrees with me on the shi thing so I must be right < 1270837984 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1270837987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sucketh no more < 1270837990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just googled for it. < 1270837994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kana to romaji" < 1270837995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only one good reply from pikhq to what Deewiant said < 1270837999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(汝はローマ字を使わなくては行けない。) < 1270838000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes he uses it < 1270838002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh no < 1270838008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll do it for him then < 1270838009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's probably newer than my previous Google < 1270838020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant, shi-t < 1270838033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hah. < 1270838036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where is oerjan btw?) < 1270838052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, well, it's easier than learning the kana :-P < 1270838054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can't stand the pressure of doing this) < 1270838067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Which is a two day project. < 1270838084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically what I'm saying is you suck and are illiterate in Japanese. :P < 1270838085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That must be repeated once a month < 1270838092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I knew it existed ~2007 < 1270838093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, I am < 1270838094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or thereabouts < 1270838099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... You could just keep learning Japanese. < 1270838111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, read stuff in it. < 1270838112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but why? < 1270838122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but that's, like, work :-P < 1270838127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what use do you have for it? < 1270838132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO UNDERSTAND ANIME AS IT WAS TRULY INTENDED TO BE UNDERSTOOD, AS A VIABLE ARTISTIC WORK < 1270838136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1270838138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270838143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, if he wants to actually speak Japanese. < 1270838156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Dude, anime is only slightly less niche in Japan than it is here. :) < 1270838156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? Did he? < 1270838158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess then < 1270838188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he doesn't desire that, than, well. He'll just continue not speaking it. :P < 1270838253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: From what I gather it's more than slightly less niche. < 1270838255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's pretty much my expectation. :-P < 1270838290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: With the exception of a few works that have gotten popular, it's pretty much seen as "that thing severe geeks enjoy". < 1270838402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was a multimillion industry or something? < 1270838454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out there are a lot of geeks < 1270838471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... What's popular is absurdly popular. < 1270838487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't pokemon in anime style or something iirc? for example < 1270838501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pokemon, for instance, is absurdly popular amongst children. < 1270838502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least some pokemon movies or whatever < 1270838519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and isn't there some zdragonball or something? < 1270838522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the popular anime are for children, really... < 1270838545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dragonball Z was based on a popular manga; the show was not as well-remembered. < 1270838548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/911859.txt?key=x3j8viguq8vwfm5prgwo8q A list structure, and two map functions, in an imaginary language that's something vaguely unlike C. < 1270838560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, can't tell the difference. Since I'm *not* such a geek I guess < 1270838576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Manga are comic books. < 1270838582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah okay < 1270838599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which *aren't* all that niche. < 1270838616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270838622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zdragonball, it's compressed. < 1270838630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragonball.Z < 1270838631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, right, maybe I was misremembering what was niche or not. < 1270838639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do distinctly remember that manga is relatively mainstream. < 1270838641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It deserves it. < 1270838648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1270838653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As we know, all anime is really for children anyway, and only geeks with no social life watch it. They're usually perverted, too. < 1270838662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw looking at wikipedia's article on anime, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modernanime.jpg <-- I certainly couldn't tell that the second column, second image from the bottom was anime < 1270838666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the other ones were quite easy < 1270838667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also tentacles are involved, I know that much! < 1270838675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not all anime is for children. Oh, lord no. < 1270838688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You just say that because you have no life. < 1270838695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(P.S. I may be trolling you.) < 1270838708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Do you recognize that top-left one from AnMaster's? I think I do but can't put my finger on it < 1270838726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Dead Leaves. < 1270838732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could have read the description. < 1270838737 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then I didn't < 1270838737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a positively *fucked up* movie. < 1270838739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't call it mine. It is on wikipedia simply. < 1270838760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, he actually linked to the page and not the pic; I just automatically clicked on the pic and then forgot < 1270838762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is the devil! No! I shall not be associated with it! Aaaaah! < 1270838794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nah, I just don't want it to tarnish my trademark ;P < 1270838795 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also reminded me that I really should re-watch Lain some day < 1270838819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember: AnMaster® < 1270838828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaste® < 1270838834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster. Does what it says on the tin. < 1270838839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270838844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your search - ® - did not match any documents. < 1270838844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1270838847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google fails < 1270838853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely wikipedia will have an article on it < 1270838870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Lain picture wasn't very instantly recognizable. (At least to someone who has only seen it once quite a long time ago.) < 1270838890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not very. < 1270838950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That pastie: see, now you're inventing languages instead of implementing funge < 1270838955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I KNOW < 1270838966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SAVE ME!!! < 1270838974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://gcc.gnu.org/ < 1270838993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather hang myself with a crisp made out of rotten marshmallows. < 1270838999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would, incidentally, be a rather interesting task. < 1270839000 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://clang.llvm.org/ if you're the more adventurous type < 1270839024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Join us now and shaare the software < 1270839030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll be free, hackers, you'll be, freeeeeeeee < 1270839031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whatever happened to "leaning toward C"? :-P < 1270839036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I realised C sucked. < 1270839047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you forget that everything sucks? < 1270839059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but some things suck less < 1270839075 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max < 1270839085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or min, whichever < 1270839130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just forget the whole writing-a-program idea since it's quite clear you won't be getting very far ;-P < 1270839141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK for a bit -> < 1270839161 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.127.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270839174 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max < 1270839174 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Or min, whichever < 1270839174 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can't consider every language. < 1270839174 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ping. < 1270839219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't go so very well, given the just-before-your-join AFK for a bit -> < 1270839224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your timing, it is not optimal. < 1270839232 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a Data Structures assignment < 1270839239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270839245 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implement a stack, and implement a queue < 1270839254 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: How difficult. < 1270839258 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stack is so.. easy in Haskell, the queue only slightly less so < 1270839266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't say. < 1270839274 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not technically the mutable structures they want though < 1270839276 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, the assignment is in C++ though < 1270839323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You provide me with encouraging language suggestions. < 1270839331 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Forth. < 1270839355 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I love Forth, but... no. < 1270839359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270839370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass? < 1270839378 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Glass, but... no. < 1270839385 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ < 1270839397 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1270839400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was that one thing, the name of which I always forget. < 1270839406 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" " HQ9+, "... ". < 1270839415 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Describe it? < 1270839443 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Deewiant: So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max" <<< what if the lattice of languages w.r.t. sucking is not a complete lattice?!? < 1270839457 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the sup is not a language! < 1270839461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*might not be < 1270839466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looked a bit like English prose, and you had some sort of objects or classes or such named after famous people, at least in examples or something. < 1270839478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: clearly I'd just flesh out whatever language it returned < 1270839484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by picking from less-optimally-nonsucking languages < 1270839495 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Shakespeare? < 1270839501 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ork? < 1270839509 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Ork? < 1270839539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was probably Ork I was thinking about. < 1270839553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was writing something in Ork, and kept naming things after mathematicians. < 1270839567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or physicists. < 1270839569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1270839628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, there was the class "mathematician", and I was trying to instantiate all objects of it using names of thematically appropriate mathematicians, and it was taking a long time to come up with suitable ones. < 1270839639 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270839647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like my predicament. < 1270839736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right; I did a class for bitwise operations called "logician" to compute CRCs in Ork, and had to think of logicians. < 1270839743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a checksum computer is to initialize a number: < 1270839743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a logician called Frege. < 1270839743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frege is to lsb result. < 1270839743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a mathematician called Laplace. < 1270839743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laplace's first operand is result. < 1270839745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the lang. < 1270839752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frege, Tarski, O'Connor. < 1270839767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably says something that I put Russell O'Connor on that level. < 1270839829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and Goedel of course. < 1270839845 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Peirce. < 1270839884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Those are very easy data structures. < 1270839908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ... it probably is a complete lattice. < 1270839927 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I find that really funny and I don't know why < 1270839929 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Given that it's finite and all. < 1270839930 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what you just said) < 1270839934 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270839939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270839939 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Just so you know, the AI competition deadline is today; I guess you weren't going to do it? < 1270839942 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... < 1270839963 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance C could be considered the union of C_k where k is the size of bytes < 1270839968 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and anyway < 1270839968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was going to a long while ago and then I missed the signup-deadline and decided not to < 1270839979 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be parametrized language families < 1270839981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the lecture slides for that course are poor at best < 1270839999 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what if say we had k-dimensional funges as separate languages, and k+1 was better than k < 1270840009 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then clearly at least that sublattice wouldn't be complete < 1270840032 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: You assume a nonsensity < 1270840055 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what nonsensity < 1270840073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Even the old lecturer -- whose slides they are -- was mostly using the book's slide-set last year. I don't really know what the lectures this year have been like. < 1270840074 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that parametrizable languages can be thunk of as one language < 1270840094 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know < 1270840101 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't feel like writing C++ < 1270840109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know about the lectures themselves either < 1270840119 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, because you will have to choose the parameters. < 1270840266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 26 submissions so far out of 52 groups. But there's still some three hours to the deadline. < 1270840273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://clang.llvm.org/ if you're the more adventurous type <-- really? It works quite well in my experience < 1270840286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[*] for certain values of work < 1270840309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah but some things suck less <--- ah, go! < 1270840310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I'm being flooded < 1270840315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with what? < 1270840317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, water? < 1270840318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wine? < 1270840321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH < 1270840321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP packet? < 1270840324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More stuff more stuff! More stuff! < 1270840330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC text lines? < 1270840335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that last one. < 1270840343 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270840343 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: You can't be the one choosing them since we're looking at implemented ones < 1270840365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Aye, there'll probably be another 15 at least soon enough < 1270840370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if one program implemented both haskell and C, would you say haskell = C? < 1270840375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "for certain values" being the adventurosity < 1270840388 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant's like a batch system! You submit a comment, it ends up in his processing queue, then a reply comes a lot later. < 1270840390 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it that two languages are different iff they can be separated by implementation < 1270840399 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, there's a language that only implements one < 1270840414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter < 1270840421 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270840422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously ;-P) < 1270840424 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess that makes sense < 1270840449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1270840472 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so okay < 1270840504 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space of all programs now has a topology with as basis the open sets {L | I implements L} < 1270840505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: "for certain values" being the adventurosity <-- yes, but |values| has increased with time < 1270840514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1270840518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why not Go? < 1270840537 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But it's still less than GCC's < 1270840542 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "dunno" < 1270840545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't feel like using go < 1270840581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I also have something with a deadline for 23:59 that I've yet to finish < 1270840632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, that rhymes < 1270840633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1270840652 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's no problem; the effective AI competition deadline is actually 00:05 tomorrow. < 1270840683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: BitC? < 1270840714 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit of a pipe-dream project. And the author disappeared to work for the Evil Empire for a while. < 1270840718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, bah, you have more time left still than I had earlier today < 1270840728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I sent it in with just half an hour to go < 1270840738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Difference is that I'm being flooded < 1270840749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so ignore irc? < 1270840749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yet you keep reading. < 1270840750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1270840757 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BitC? < 1270840763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just closed irc client, having bouncer on logging < 1270840772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what? the BitC author? < 1270840774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather procrastinate < 1270840777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1270840780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and evil empire = Microsoft? < 1270840781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same guy as the Coyotos guy. < 1270840782 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270840787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270840793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, that explains why it became inactive < 1270840798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; he's back now though. < 1270840817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, but won't MS sue him if he ever writes anything open source basically? < 1270840867 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1270840874 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't work for Microsoft any more. < 1270840882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, he saw their code... < 1270840888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it at least < 1270841045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :// Gregor can't spell ... < 1270841045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define ORK_instanciate ORK_instantiate < 1270841046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice one < 1270841050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from ORK source code < 1270841056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at Gregor < 1270841071 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles < 1270841078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, try ORK esolang < 1270841080 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BitC isn't an esolang? < 1270841082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is on codu anyway < 1270841088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, .... of course not < 1270841089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Believe it or not, Microsoft's legal department isn't *that* crazy. < 1270841101 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I didn't know what it was until I googled it! < 1270841105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm leaning towards "not" < 1270841105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270841119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2008/07/java-is-too-academic.html < 1270841129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? *clicks link* < 1270841135 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: He couldn't work on WINE or ReactOS, but that's mostly a CYA manuever. < 1270841156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it sarcastic? < 1270841161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it is < 1270841175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not your personal sarcasm-detector < 1270841178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, CYA? < 1270841190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then who is? < 1270841198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not your secretary either < 1270841206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then what are you? < 1270841241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A member of the set people \ { AnMaster's sarcasm-detector, AnMaster's secretary } < 1270841247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cover Your Ass < 1270841253 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270841257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1270841267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aha < 1270841314 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's sarcasm you nitwit. < 1270841316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's a functional programmer. < 1270841334 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether writing p->q as pq is nice or just horrible. < 1270841345 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p /\ q = (pqr)r < 1270841349 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p \/ q = (pr)(qr)r < 1270841364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: How's the funge < 1270841378 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)))) < 1270841380 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick a lang < 1270841386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a card, any card. < 1270841410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: We've got Python and Perl but not Ruby or Tcl < 1270841418 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: how's the deadlines < 1270841430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: How do you like them apples? < 1270841430 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on it in the background < 1270841438 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ruby yeck, Tcl yeck < 1270841468 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: You asked me to pick a lang, not you < 1270841475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why ask if you'll reject < 1270841480 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was wrong with Haskell? < 1270841483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speed < 1270841496 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abuse unboxed types! < 1270841500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speed, the need for. < 1270841504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Of course it's sarcasm you nitwit. <-- you are a good sarcasm detector. But I would prefer Mk.2, where they fixed some major bugs, such as: irritating wooosh sound no longer produced, no longer applies irony or sarcasm itself, fixed bugs that could cause flamewars < 1270841512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Let me guess: "yeck" < 1270841518 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you being a bot? < 1270841532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I am channeling the spirit of fungot, yerrrs. < 1270841533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bot, the being of. < 1270841533 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fnord) f(x, y) type requires that ruby extension allowing you to see which way it is. < 1270841543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: See, fungot recommends ruby too < 1270841544 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: they look exactly identical here.) < 1270841559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, okay what about scheme? < 1270841559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, or then it just can't tell the difference between ruby and other languages < 1270841559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't Ruby also considered slow? < 1270841566 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not fast 'nuff. < 1270841568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, prolog? < 1270841569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Shh ;-) < 1270841579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, oh you want fast? I know the perfect language then < 1270841581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, VHDL < 1270841590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I think ML was your best idea yet < 1270841590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Verilog < 1270841602 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL == hardware stuff? < 1270841608 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, simulation of hardware stuff? < 1270841618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Perhaps. < 1270841618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, what exactly is your question? < 1270841623 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't really... know ML, though. < 1270841630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, anyway, why not VHDL < 1270841636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, trying to figure out if my vague recollection is correct < 1270841637 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: So learn? < 1270841648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, it is a language for programming FPGAs and such in < 1270841650 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* Something alise_ doesn't know! < 1270841658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can simulate it too < 1270841659 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, but... < 1270841666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I want something /fast/ fast. < 1270841667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got handed a project to write an anti-virus engine in Python, which I don't know, within a month, one week of which I'll be away < 1270841671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, asm! < 1270841682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Haven't you heard of writing fast-fast things in C/asm? < 1270841684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was a compiler that basically did whole-program specialisation... now that would be cool. < 1270841686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? < 1270841688 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine simulating it is slower than just writing C < 1270841689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So don't. < 1270841696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but not fast fast fast. < 1270841709 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, with an FPGA [programmable hardware, I guess?], it would probably be faster than C < 1270841713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, perhaps. Useful for testing it. Running under a debugger is slower than not doing so as well often < 1270841717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I meant, take the bits that need to be fast-fast instead of fast and do them in C/asm < 1270841724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, polyglots. < 1270841725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stalin is supposed to be faster than C, or at least that's what they claim. :p < 1270841728 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does alise_ have an FPGA? < 1270841735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, I'm not that obsessed enough. < 1270841749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, well, restricted R4RS designed for numerical code -- writing a Funge in that sounds fun. < 1270841754 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tends to value sanity over speed < 1270841756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Hm? Is C with inline asm really a polygot? < 1270841775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought polygot required it to work completely free standing in each languae < 1270841779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language* < 1270841789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: perl foo works and so does python foo < 1270841790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polyglot: containing, or made up of, several languages. < 1270841791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1270841799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a word. < 1270841808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about a polygot in the sense I described? < 1270841810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that called < 1270841814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. polyglot -- (having a command of or composed in many languages; "a polyglot traveler"; "a polyglot Bible contains versions in different languages") < 1270841815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A polyglot. < 1270841827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't want to include C with inline ASM < 1270841840 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://svichet.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pinocchio-paradox.jpg < 1270841843 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1270841850 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is relatively easy for an inexperienced developer to produce code that simulates successfully but that cannot be synthesized into a real device, or is too large to be practical. < 1270841851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like gcc foo.c -o foo working the same as as foo.c < 1270841853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would fit < 1270841863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not C with inline ASM < 1270841885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does alise_ have an FPGA? <-- he could in theory get one? < 1270841891 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*she < 1270841897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember your nick-pronouns. < 1270841925 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can things like video cards be made with VHDL? < 1270841927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is relatively easy for an inexperienced developer to produce code that simulates successfully but that cannot be synthesized into a real device, or is too large to be practical. <-- well sure. < 1270841928 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the one nick that tells you gender and you ignore it < 1270841963 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, gender(nick-alise) = augment(male, pronouns = pronouns(female)), whereas gender(person-behind(nick-alise)) = male < 1270841966 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite complicated < 1270841992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, I'm no expert but I think some components would probably not be. For example the physical card wouldn't be. Nor would the fan (duh). Probably not the video memory either < 1270841997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Additionally it has been established that you is girly. < 1270842000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rendering stuff could < 1270842003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it has been done < 1270842009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware ray tracing and such < 1270842031 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When will hardware ray tracing be commercially and cheaply available? < 1270842042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Furthermore, we have found, following intense thought, introspection and discussion, that the best course of action for the board to take is to resolve that you is been found to be girly. < 1270842059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah the one nick that tells you gender and you ignore it <-- yes because to me he is mentally still ehird < 1270842087 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... if someone asks you what alise's nick is < 1270842090 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd say ehird? < 1270842104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I would say his current nick is alise_ < 1270842115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, don't say "he"; it's rude. < 1270842120 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- says the rudest person in here. < 1270842139 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1270842145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm separate, non-linked nickserv accounts < 1270842147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1270842160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for tusho < 1270842170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, did you know about /ns group? < 1270842189 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command: ns < 1270842192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1270842194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, /quote then < 1270842198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your irc client fails < 1270842201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my fault < 1270842210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that really a failure? < 1270842210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it *is* a server side alias) < 1270842224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, no. It is a feature, Like every other bug. < 1270842238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you're being snarky. < 1270842239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course in this case it is more likely to be a misdirected feature in fact < 1270842253 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/quote < 1270842265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "snarky"? *googles* < 1270842274 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, why didn't this work: /quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric < 1270842281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky gives it as "A word that should be googled to find the definition as per direction from Dane Cook. It means short tempered or irritable." but I don't think that is true < 1270842294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You're giving too many parameters to "privmsg" there. < 1270842295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric < 1270842299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(urbandict was the top hit) < 1270842301 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if I considered the identities to be one in the same, I would group them. < 1270842314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want something like /quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote ... there. < 1270842315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, add the : where it should be < 1270842316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you forgot the : < 1270842321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, heh < 1270842326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yeah you are complex < 1270842326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why heh? < 1270842333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, see above ^ < 1270842336 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric < 1270842343 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get what you mean. < 1270842354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric < 1270842356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric < 1270842357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, "above: opposite of below"? < 1270842360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't work either < 1270842363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What? < 1270842365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it did < 1270842378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, just your client doesn't echo what you send that way < 1270842383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since irc doesn't echo < 1270842390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is up to the client to do so < 1270842398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_, see above ^ < 1270842400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't get what you mean. < 1270842403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_, "above: opposite of below"? < 1270842416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what is it you don't get there ;P < 1270842473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're being deliberately annoying & obtuse./ < 1270842478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/$// < 1270842491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yes < 1270842759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Anyway, do you mean SML by ML? < 1270842771 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any-ML < 1270842775 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(NEML) < 1270842808 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should MAKE NEML! :P < 1270842844 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pronounced either Enny Emmel or Enn Ee Emm Ell < 1270842851 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best thing is that they both sound the same! < 1270842888 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd pronounce it nemmul anyway < 1270843159 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this is ur fave song right http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeSj7rdKrKE < 1270843212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1270843423 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SML is tempting, except for that I don't see how I'd (a) manage memory in it, nor (b) write an efficient fungespace in it. < 1270843436 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270843447 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Write your Funge-Space in C and the rest in SML? < 1270843464 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Functional languages typically interact badly with C; and I'd rather not touch C, like, at all. < 1270843479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost everything interacts well enough with C < 1270843522 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're wrong there. < 1270843539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: And really, (a) and (b) are premature optimization. Get your shit straight first and then wring all the speed you can out of it < 1270843542 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just write it in Oberon. < 1270843543 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270843545 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.127.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270843548 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But, but Fungicide. < 1270843568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungicide won't do you any good if you can't get through Mycology < 1270843574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1270843584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. < 1270843597 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely you're going to have to semi-rewrite it at some point anyway if you're planning on doing it properly :-P < 1270843608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keyword semi... < 1270843618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still... SML /does/ have the perfect module system... < 1270843622 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put Fungespace in that... < 1270843691 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, from an SML benchmark: < 1270843692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun C f x y = f y x < 1270843701 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're so fast we put combinators in our benchmarks and don't even fucking care! < 1270843708 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was just an implementation of GoL) < 1270843724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, if the compiler can't optimize away flip it's rather poor :-P < 1270843742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. And MLton is a whole-program optimising compiler that produces slippin' good code. < 1270843777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone oughta write Befunge in Prolog. :-) < 1270843794 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some Prolog fanatics that won't program in anything else. < 1270843973 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. < 1270843989 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Writing a Mycology-passing interpreter is not really that hard, is it? Since you guys have figured out most of the work. < 1270844034 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't be particularly difficult, no. < 1270844044 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can always write an ML one then write one in another language. < 1270844054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1270844098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology? < 1270844166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Deewiant's comprehensive Befunge wondersuite of tests & trinkets. < 1270844197 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, I maybe should've mentioned; I found a rather amusing Octave bug recently, http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/index.php?29465 < 1270844208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being a preliminary Befunge-93 examination, a compleat & well-regarded Befunge-98 crunch-suite of all the odds & ends one expects in the Befunge-98 business, & a test suite of that most feral of fingerprints, TRDS. < 1270844239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's odd indeed :-P < 1270844476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :byebye, be back soon < 1270844511 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270844725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You're wrong there. <-- indeed. For example Brainfuck doesn't < 1270844736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about the old LISP machines? < 1270844759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few examples against an "[a]lmost everything" does not me a wrong make < 1270844780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true. Was that mathematical "almost all"? < 1270844812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You *could* reformulate it as something like "if it interacts well with some other language, odds are good it does it well with C", though. (I'm sure there's exceptions to that, too, but it didn't say "all".) < 1270844841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I don't think my lawn mover interacts well with C < 1270844852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you forgot to restrict yourself to programming languages) < 1270844856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about VHDL? < 1270844870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What does it interact well with, then? < 1270844886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, memory circuits perhaps? < 1270844891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a language. < 1270844894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1270844904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about verilog? I have no idea if you can mix them < 1270844930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably you can use two FPGAs one programmed in VHDL and one in Verilog and make them communicate < 1270844982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, that's a bit of a different thing. You could have two separately running programs written in different language that communicate over a pipe; I wouldn't quite say that's some FFI-like integration. < 1270844993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270844999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it could be RPC though < 1270845004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of similar < 1270845024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for FPGAs that would be like a co-processor I guess < 1270845097 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a real exception, I'm sure there's some low-levelish languages that "interact well" with assembly -- letting you do inline asm and such -- but don't have any special convenience features for interacting with code written in C. (Not that it typically would be very difficult if you can do inline asm.) < 1270845108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270845217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also claim that Java interacts better with C++ than C, because writing JNI bits is syntactically a bit less ugly for C++, though the difference is not large. < 1270845246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does JNI allow you to call unmodified C++ code? < 1270845322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Well, yes. Well, it depends on what you mean by that. JNI methods need to be specifically written to be callable from Java, but of course you can call unmodified C++ code from them. But it doesn't quite work so that you could use C++ bits without some manual glue. < 1270845348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone's written automation for that alread.y < 1270845381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean something like calling something in libc or libstdc++ from java with no in-between C/C++ wrapper < 1270845432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, it doesn't do that. < 1270845432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there are after all several ways to do FFI. One is to give you a special C API to interface with the app you want. The other one is to allow describing the foreign function completely in the non-C language. < 1270845441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know which is most common < 1270845484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think C# and such does the latter < 1270845501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I remember using a extremely low level opengl wrapper in C# once < 1270845513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell uses the latter, right? < 1270845528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about python, does it provide the latter as well as the former? < 1270845532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it provides the former at least < 1270845541 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Python does provide the latter < 1270845543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang provides mostly the former. < 1270845544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the ctypes module < 1270845560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, ah never used that. Only used the C API for embedding python < 1270845582 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if Half-Life will work on this machine < 1270845614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you know that is no VR right? < 1270845615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270845642 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270845673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gforth has a FFI that's close to the latter part, with a twist. You declare C functions using the "c-function" word, but it also allows you to use "\c" prefix in front of a line to write actual C code. Then it uses gcc to compile all \c lines and wrapper functions (using the usual gforth stack-passing conventions and such) for each c-function declaration, so that you can start to use those just like Forth words. < 1270845709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270845761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't require the latter to provide a 100% mapping of weird C types. Managing a majority of the cases is enough to be considered valid for that category < 1270845762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit kludgy, like everything else there. < 1270845768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In order to work, this C interface invokes GCC at run-time and uses dynamic linking. If these features are not available, there are other, less convenient and less portable C interfaces in lib.fs and oldlib.fs. These interfaces are mostly undocumented and mostly incompatible with each other and with the documented C interface; you can find some examples for the lib.fs interface in lib.fs." < 1270845780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for example: handling structs but perhaps not intricate details of padding related to bitfields) < 1270845797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or not supporting varargs) < 1270845818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least on x86_64 iirc varargs can be somewhat gnarly) < 1270845839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even llvm doesn't support it without manual help from the code gen, as is done by C compilers) < 1270845933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DOES STEAM KEEP CRASHING? < 1270845987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you need a some sort of safety valve there? < 1270846017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270846061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Visual Studio debugger is complaining about uncaught exception, but Steam's still working < 1270846066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I respond, Steam will die < 1270846067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try adding something like a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Proportional-Safety_Valve.jpg (disclaimer: I have no clue about steam engineering, but it looks impressive enough.) < 1270846165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it has something to do with IE8 < 1270846217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Try adding something like a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Proportional-Safety_Valve.jpg (disclaimer: I have no clue about steam engineering, but it looks impressive enough.) <-- tag it with "should be svg" ;) < 1270846342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another silly problem: the third monitor I have is 1280x1024 tft, rotated 90 degrees; for some reason it can't remember xrandr settings right, so I need to "xrandr --screen 2 --output DVI-0 --rotate left" manually. < 1270846342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After I do this, the region on the left side that normally lets the mouse cursor pass through to other screens is not updated, so only the 1024 upper pixels let the mouse go through; the lowest 256 are a wall. < 1270846342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever I have the mouse on the lowest part of that screen, I always get it stuck there for a moment before remembering to go up a bit before trying to leave the screen. < 1270846411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1270846415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's crazy < 1270846434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've made the bot description field in the AI tournament participant submission form non-optional; again out of the 32 bots only 7 have bothered to give any sort of description as to what they've done. < 1270846442 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one of those 7 is just "well..." < 1270846455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, haha < 1270846475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one is "War... War never changes.", a Fallout reference; the name of the bot is "ydinsota", which is Finnish for "nuclear war". < 1270846500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in fact they seem to be spectacularly un-descriptive for the most part. < 1270846510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Canada is a bot that fights fair, no dirty tricks." < 1270846524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"King Hippo": "I have my weakness. But I won't tell you! Ha Ha Ha!" < 1270846567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "Beware of the wombat!" < 1270846577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is the last one a reference? < 1270846597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a reference to the bot name, which is "Wombat". < 1270846608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270846612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Together they might be referring something else, not sure. < 1270846627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "beware of the dog" I guess < 1270846644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * L6 WOMBAT (Weapon Of Magnesium, Battalion, Anti-Tank), a British recoilless rifle < 1270846644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Women's Mountain Bike and Tea Society (WOMBATS), a cycling group founded by Jacquie Phelan < 1270846644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Worldwide Observatory Of Malicious Behaviors and Attack Threats, an FP7 research project on cyberattack data gathering and threat analysis [1] < 1270846644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Waste Of Money, Brains And Time, usually referred to a project. An example is the $99 PC from the movie The First $20 Million Is Always the Hardest. < 1270846653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's acronym expansions for WOMBAT. < 1270846664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be that last one. :p < 1270846685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew <-- release is scheduled for 12 April, so they don't have a lot of time to fix that up in < 1270846716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix what? < 1270846737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that they have no newlines in there for example? < 1270846758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"New SSAUpdater and MachineSSAUpdater classes for unstructured ssa updating, changed jump threading, GVN, etc to use it which simplified them and speed them up. Combiner-AA improvements, why not on by default? Pre-regalloc tail duplication x86 sibcall optimization New LSR with full strength reduction mode The most awesome sext / zext optimization pass. ? The ARM backend now has good support for ARMv4 < 1270846758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backend (tested on StrongARM hardware), previously only supported ARMv4T and newer. Defaults to RTTI off, packagers should build with make REQUIRE_RTTI=1. CondProp pass removed (functionality merged into jump threading). " and so on < 1270846761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the * ... < 1270846766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under most entries < 1270846775 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you just meant that page < 1270846778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1270846786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were referring to it for the release date < 1270846799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nah they are on the main page < 1270846823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MST3k time < 1270846831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MST3k? < 1270846846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The release date is somewhat in fluctuation anyway < 1270846850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there are unfixed regressions < 1270846851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I just found a new use for a laptop screen. To somewhat block/reduce the noise of a cd drive behind it < 1270846888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(desktop cd/dvd drive whines slightly when playing a cd, even at the low speeds of audio CDs) < 1270846896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially annoying for audio cds) < 1270846903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hrrm < 1270846998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, link to those? < 1270847000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My DVD drive does not "whine slightly" when playing audio CDs; it makes quite a lot of noise. I've just flac'd our very few audio CDs so that I don't need to actually play them. < 1270847024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, except that would be more than all my harddrives together I calculated half a year ago < 1270847039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the average compression radio of flac seems to be ~50% for classical music < 1270847063 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mystery Science Theater 3000 < 1270847081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See llvm-dev mailing list... < 1270847091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, link to that ;P < 1270847095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a link < 1270847106 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use the archives < 1270847115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's around 50% for our non-classical music too, but like I said, we have a very small set of CDs. < 1270847116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want the bugs, Google llvm 2.7 blocker or something like that < 1270847130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you subscribe to it < 1270847130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270847135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I use gmane < 1270847143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that have a link too < 1270847145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over NNTP < 1270847157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you know that is almost like gopher < 1270847160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in rarity < 1270847164 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NNTP? < 1270847165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can stick 2000 reasonable-sized audio CDs on a terabyte drive, though; they seem to be around half a gig each here.) < 1270847168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1270847170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even know they *had* nntp < 1270847175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NNTP is a lot more common than Gopher < 1270847176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, for anything but usenet < 1270847181 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1270847182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and usenet is still somewhat more common yes < 1270847216 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our school's student association has their own newsserver which is commonly used for at least job offers and the like < 1270847231 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does have a web frontend these days, though. < 1270847250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=6586 <-- just one? < 1270847257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is still open < 1270847287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the situation improved in the past few days < 1270847306 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL. One of the rifts on "Invasion of the Neptune Men" had something like "Featuring Santa" < 1270847311 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be used quite a lot for actual studying-and-course-news stuff, but nowadays there's only one officially sanctioned web-bortal way of communicating. < 1270847315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess where Santa lives according to Futurama.. < 1270847323 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which, of course, doesn't let the students post anything...) < 1270847346 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many courses still refer to their NG but nothing ever gets posted < 1270847352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, web-bortal? < 1270847356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wep-bortal < 1270847371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not WPA these days? < 1270847373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "The study and teaching portal Noppa". < 1270847382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I meant the spelling < 1270847388 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1270847390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The study and teaching bortal Noppa" < 1270847398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is "a handy tool for both students and lecturers", so who am I to argue. < 1270847399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1270847410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a handy bool yes < 1270847415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either true or false < 1270847429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the RSS feeds of newsposts is a good feature, as are the email notifications; but it's all so unidirectional. < 1270847431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :law of excluded middle is always in effect there < 1270847446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, newsbosts you mean < 1270847455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and botifications < 1270847472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, why not. < 1270847484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270847501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err I mean :b of course < 1270847531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it sends the email notifications with the poster's email as the SMTP sender, so every time I make a newspost, I get a bounce from one guy's over-quota mailbox. < 1270847576 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually that was last year; this year I get a "Unable to deliver message to the following recipients, because the message was forwarded more than the maximum allowed times." bounce, it seems. < 1270847608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1270847631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it didn't deliver any message? < 1270847637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just to some? < 1270847649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, did it list every one in that list?) < 1270847657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just the one broken one. < 1270847666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other students presumably get their messages just fine. < 1270847699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe not! < 1270847701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you try contacting IT support? < 1270847778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did get a real reply to the newspost from another student, so at least one other person got their message. < 1270847788 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he was the only one < 1270847800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know! < 1270847818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the mail-loopy address is not one of our university's; it's some custom email address. Nobba lets you register whatever you want as the ebb-bmail address there. < 1270847826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that "abbress"? < 1270847835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, baddres < 1270847838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270847840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baddress < 1270847841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1270847841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babbles < 1270847843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad dress < 1270847886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me, I should transfer those lecture notes pictures from my phone over bluetooth sometime soon < 1270847887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 returns from 52 groups now that it's ~45 minutes until deadline. < 1270847897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Did you finish whatever it was you were doing? < 1270847907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a bit less than an hour ago < 1270847913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for anyone to ask how those are related < 1270847918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, good; just thought I'd remind. < 1270847923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270847931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A lecturer in a bad dress? < 1270847935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no < 1270847936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, this was the third of three such exercises < 1270847952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first time around I did it a day or two early and then forgot to return it until a day after the deadline < 1270847970 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately the course personnel were nice and didn't deduct any points < 1270847993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it is thus clearly a better idea to do stuff immediately before the deadline < 1270847995 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did one coursework thing a month before deadline, then forgot to return it and returned it a day late. < 1270848004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, bad dress → badly dressed people → university in general → you → panoramas → images → lecture notes < 1270848005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1270848016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, convoluted yes < 1270848048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"badly dressed people → university in general" is a bit of a leap. < 1270848059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, CS people then < 1270848068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You stereotypist. < 1270848074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a badly-dressed person :( < 1270848094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I'm a CS student myself. I'm not badly dressed if the average isn't I guess. < 1270848111 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Which reminds me: I chose your hat a few days back, did you abide? < 1270848120 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I always abide. < 1270848127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1270848138 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30595531&l=c65d70c86e&id=1055580469 <-- my usual style of dress < 1270848149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: We had two very well-dressed folks from the Finnish equivalent of your Piratpartiet talking on the "law in network society" course just yesterday. Admittedly they weren't CS students, though. < 1270848150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me wonder about your profession < 1270848168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did they say anything interesting? < 1270848176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me wonder about your orientation (sexual)! < 1270848180 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270848187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wonder about the strangest things < 1270848213 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And wonder them in oddly-parenthesized ways. < 1270848246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, law students tends to be *very* well dressed < 1270848255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, they said the same things what they always say, which I guess are interesting but not exactly novel if you've heard them before. It was one of the authors of that freely-available book, http://www.barrikadi.fi/pamfletit/jokapiraatinoikeus-0 (Finnish only). < 1270848273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: Which reminds me: I chose your hat a few days back, did you abide? <-- which one? < 1270848273 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They weren't exactly law students, either. One of them was a student of history, and I have no idea what the other one was. < 1270848281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1270848283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like his fezes < 1270848296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't actually remember :-S < 1270848309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, he has so many weird ones ;) < 1270848315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember I tried to pick an abnormal one but I can't remember what I settled on < 1270848331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: fezzes* < 1270848346 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fezi < 1270848348 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270848355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fezzies. < 1270848358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1270848359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzies < 1270848364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah < 1270848366 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one of those. < 1270848388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no. Sometimes I have seen fizzien here too < 1270848400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's quite many places on the interwebs that sell "bath fizzies". < 1270848404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270848408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers to read the word as fizzien rather than fizzie n < 1270848414 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a bath fizzie >: ) < 1270848441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what do you actually do for work < 1270848451 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what happened today O_o < 1270848452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: We've been partial to such products from Lush (lush.com), but I'm not sure if they have them around your neighbourhood. < 1270848463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 packages to upgrade < 1270848463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try clog? < 1270848470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1270848475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, be careful. soname change < 1270848484 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I guess I'm a research scientist. < 1270848488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soname? < 1270848500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that is the name for < 1270848516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libfoo.so.1 vs libfoo.so.2 < 1270848539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah that explains it. Those kinds of hat would only work at university ;P < 1270848552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hats* < 1270848554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libdrm or what being the actual change? < 1270848588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: More generally I'm a doctoral student, but that's not what I do "for work" :P < 1270848633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I vote for this attitude on said day: http://codu.org/hats/BrownFedora-sm.jpg < 1270848633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270848657 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choosemyhat.com is for hats, not attitudes :P < 1270848660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, libdrm? < 1270848667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc it was some kerberos stuff < 1270848679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least ssh broke during the upgrade with some error about old soname krb thing not found < 1270848685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just saw libdrm go up a version number < 1270848691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And most other things go up a release number < 1270848692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well maybe that too < 1270848709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well libkrb messed up for me for a bit there < 1270848727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, still, that is an awesome attitude on that picture :P < 1270848738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't appear to have libkrb installed < 1270848749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, huh, here it is a dep of sshd? < 1270848776 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heimdal did go up a version number < 1270848782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant a package by that name < 1270848785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it is libkrb < 1270848790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libkrb5 even < 1270848796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't remember exact name < 1270848802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib/libkrb5.so.26 is owned by heimdal 1.3.2-1 < 1270848805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was .25 before < 1270848809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning ABI breakage generally < 1270848846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh < 1270848850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? < 1270848857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now catalyst depends on openssl-compatibility which only exists for i686 < 1270848863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Required By : alpine cvs evolution-data-server gnome-vfs gtk2 kdelibs libcups librpcsecgss libtirpc neon openssh smbclient < 1270848870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what the heck is catalyst? < 1270848873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and: file a bug < 1270848890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catalyst is AMD's display driver < 1270848894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pacman -Ss catalyst < 1270848895 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt I need to < 1270848896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :returns nothing? < 1270848899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in AUR < 1270848902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1270848910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, file a comment on that page then so it can be fixed still < 1270848911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was dropped from community last summer IIRC < 1270848943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's a comment on openssl-compatibility already < 1270848946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=36308 < 1270848957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1270848963 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsurprisingly enough < 1270848965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't see why a display driver needs openssl < 1270848985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the md5 seems wrong < 1270848998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270849007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or it's using the wrong one < 1270849010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think my CARCH is set < 1270849014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had problems with that before < 1270849068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Any idea where the $CARCH comes from into a PKGBUILD? < 1270849141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody catalyst updates... I hate having to always mess with the PKGBUILDs < 1270849193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to install the OpenGL bits (I think that's what they are) into the 32-bit chroot but it doesn't quite work cleanly since it installs all bits by default, some of which depend on xorg and the kernel (both of which aren't present in the chroot...) < 1270849213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh. No idea < 1270849237 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So typically: mess with the PKGBUILD, doesn't work since I missed something. Try again, having lost the changes made last time. Repeat a couple of iterations until it installs. < 1270849241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doesn't it use split kernel/user space drivers? < 1270849252 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one package < 1270849352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah, nvidia drivers splits it < 1270849357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc there are lib32 ones even < 1270849400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, and the damn pacman update made me lose the changes without even getting a chance to try the PKGBUILD once < 1270849414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? < 1270849423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, trying what pkgbuild? < 1270849427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catalyst's < 1270849436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one I'm manually deleting stuff from < 1270849458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did pacman make you lose it? < 1270849479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pacman update changed PKGEXT from .pkg.tar.gz to .pkg.tar.xz < 1270849527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes and? < 1270849529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the pacman that was trying to upgrade the catalyst was still using .tar.gz while the pacman used to create the package used .tar.xz < 1270849535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you use the old ones still? < 1270849544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it complained about not finding a .tar.gz when it had made a .tar.xz < 1270849555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FATAL: Could not open /lib/modules/2.6.33-deewiant/modules.dep.temp for writing: No such file or directory < 1270849558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, it worked < 1270849562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did it? < 1270849565 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it did < 1270849573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FATAL is usually a bad indication < 1270849574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's no modules.dep in the chroot, doesn't matter :-P < 1270851897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The game is on: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2010.txt < 1270851903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Might be more interesting if you were participating. :p < 1270851949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if one of those were mine. :-P < 1270851957 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the NPEs < 1270851982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those results always come fastest. :p < 1270851988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270852009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NPE? < 1270852023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIARCH: RED player crashed: Uncaught exception: java.lang.NullPointerException < 1270852038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270852048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they didn't test it very well? < 1270852060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how fast is that report updated? < 1270852062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely. Will be interesting to see if it crashes all other games. < 1270852072 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a cron job, once per hour. < 1270852091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how long is one game permitted to run? < 1270852094 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "E P" in the result table is supposed to read "BLUE PLAYER" vertically, it just gets clipped a bit. After all 45 bots have been seen, the table'll be quite a bit larger, then it'll fit. < 1270852107 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One hour of thinking time for both participants. < 1270852118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm running 33 games simultaneously, though. < 1270852131 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(11 quad-core workstations, 3 simultaneous matches each.) < 1270852151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it is in user time? or user + sys? < 1270852160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wall clock time on random people's workstations? :-P < 1270852171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that would be unreliable < 1270852171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, RLIMIT_CPU time. < 1270852190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz: ignoring bogus filename < 1270852190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3p.gz: ignoring bogus filename < 1270852190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3p.gz: ignoring bogus filename < 1270852190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270852190 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, CPU time sucks, you can't parallelize < 1270852195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the heck that is < 1270852203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's been going on a while. < 1270852210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno what it is either. < 1270852225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can't parallelize anyway, the Java security policy for the tournament mode is an all-deny one, so it won't let you create any threads. :p < 1270852250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pacman -Qo /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz < 1270852250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz is owned by man-pages 3.24-1 < 1270852252 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Meh! < 1270852253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pacman -Qo /usr/share/man/man3/ulimit.3.gz < 1270852253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share/man/man3/ulimit.3.gz is owned by man-pages 3.24-1 < 1270852255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270852277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What would you need threads for, anyway, except to get some annoying nondeterminism in your move-search? < 1270852294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Searching multiple branches simultaneously, of course < 1270852303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does it allow then? Some standard library funcs I presume? < 1270852320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the point is that I need to be able to run multiple matches simultaneously, otherwise I'll be here all week. < 1270852323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some" as in almost all of the vast Java standard libs < 1270852331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, sure < 1270852341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; IO in general is not allowed, though. < 1270852365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've special-cased the System.out/.err streams to discard writes so that it won't crash if someone leaves some "debugging printfs" in. :p < 1270852368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fizzie, ooh I just got an idea for the future version of this. When quantum computers become commonplace that is < 1270852380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you could do some "user-space" (well, inside-vm) threads, though I wouldn't want to start guessing how much overhead a Java implementation of that would have. < 1270852428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't java implement it's own user space threads then? < 1270852432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by default I mean < 1270852443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION points out things like erlang does < 1270852453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By default I think Java threads are done using platform threads, pthreads on posixy things and so on. < 1270852458 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that's just my guess. < 1270852467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well erlang uses m:n basically < 1270852469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case you can't use those because of the security policy. :p < 1270852476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapping it on a number of system threads called schedulers < 1270852487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Updated the report, now there's enough games in the table so that the "blue player" text is visible too. < 1270852509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synaesthesia seems to be doing pretty well so far. < 1270852513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is Ti? < 1270852523 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result table: (Bl = blue wins, Re = red wins, Ti = tie) < 1270852530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there < 1270852531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above < 1270852538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had scrolled down a bit too far to see it < 1270852553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does it say how long each game ran for? < 1270852577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does AIARCH stand for? < 1270852582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In the actual results report, yes; not in this plaintext status report. < 1270852618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Report generated at 2010-04-10 00:33:03. <-- you should have waited 30 seconds < 1270852640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not such a bad time now, either; aa:bb:ab, after all. < 1270852673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could actually add game length in wall-clock time, e.g. in parentheses after the move count. < 1270852956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how long does that report take to generate? < 1270852962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why does it need to be a cron job < 1270852969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it could be push on game finished < 1270852985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or you could provide live coverage :D < 1270852991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like webtv or such < 1270853052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 2.00 0.09-2.00 1.7 jaautio (+1, =0, -0) < 1270853052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 1.73 0.86-1.86 0.5 synaesthesia (+9, =1, -1) < 1270853055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that looks weird < 1270853068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why doesn't the second one score higher than the first? < 1270853084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's normalized by the number of games played so far. < 1270853088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270853090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1270853097 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one has won all its games, while the other one has losses too. < 1270853110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "0.09-2.00" is the range of possible scores still achievable for that bot. < 1270853112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one played far fewer < 1270853122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, so far. < 1270853139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1270853151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The order is not exactly "fair"; it starts with all matches of the bot that happened to be first on the list. < 1270853158 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270853173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you have two older non-participating bots during previous years? < 1270853178 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for updating more often, there was some problems with sqlite's locking; I write each move of each game (and with 33 simultaneous games, there's quite a lot of those coming in) into a sqlite db, and the report-generation reads the same file. So I have the cron-job do a filesystem-level "cp" copy of the database file and then generate the report on that; it might not be quite safe for the report-generation, but at least it won't dist < 1270853179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urb the actual tournament progress. < 1270853188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i learned about a new grammar formalism last night < 1270853199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't added those in yet; I'll run the "official" games first, then the nice-to-know extras later. < 1270853210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270853213 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there were seven non-participating ones last year, I think. < 1270853221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, seven ones? < 1270853223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270853224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top-5 from 2008, one from the Scheme era, and the randombot. < 1270853229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270853258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The report seems to have autoupdated now. < 1270853259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are they still in java btw? < 1270853264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270853274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you said java security above < 1270853274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1270853279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This time there weren't even any non-Java JVM languages, I think. Or at least no-one has asked about it. < 1270853283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you talk about switching to python? < 1270853283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its called "sewing grammars" < 1270853292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and is that allowed? < 1270853304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, people are finally ignoring augur entirely < 1270853310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise shut your face :| < 1270853312 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is, though it's not exactly supported by the course. < 1270853316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ssssh, keep quiet, we are following http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2010.txt < 1270853319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in progress < 1270853332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270853333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we've just found the #esoteric equivalent of the Super Bowl < 1270853338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :D < 1270853350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"suxbot"; that's an optimistic name. < 1270853375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we just need fizzie to switch to postgresql so it can query real time updates < 1270853384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since sqlite locking yeah has it's problems < 1270853399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And they switched some programming courses from Java to Python, but I see no reason to do so for this tournament. Not that I trust Java's sandbox, but running arbitrary Python code sounds even worse, at least without some additional complicating layers of isolation there. < 1270853415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chroot < 1270853417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, jyton? < 1270853439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it was called < 1270853440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jython < 1270853498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one was ironsomething? < 1270853498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh .NET < 1270853498 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270853511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how comes that table at the top is mostly white? < 1270853514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1270853524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said many games were played at once? < 1270853539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it run synaesthesia against all the other ones first? < 1270853544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than in a random order? < 1270853567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is that n that must be positive btw? < 1270853572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (as RED) WINS against suxbot: 53 moves, AIARCH: BLUE player crashed: Uncaught exception: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: n must be positive < 1270853573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in there < 1270853658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any estimate on how long it may take? < 1270853672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also another idea: bot announcing the progress in here < 1270853673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1270853716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: chroot is not exactly a non-root operation. I've been doing this with about ~no support from the Officials. < 1270853742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same goes for a real SQL server; I'd use one if they had it conveniently installed, but I don't exactly want to install PostgreSQL in my home directory. < 1270853754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I love games, even though I am not very good at them. Chess, and even Checkers, are way too complicated, so my favorite is the "children's" game Connect-Four." < 1270853755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--Zeilberger < 1270853764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because they haven't found a finite perfect chess AI yet < 1270853768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can always request it < 1270853793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'd really rather not bother them; they seem overworked enough as-is. < 1270853820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is you guys' university good? I should come and terrorise you. < 1270853851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprisingly, that first sentence is actually the correct way to phrase that with "you guys". < 1270853855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"about ~no" < 1270853863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't alise define ~ to be ¬ before? < 1270853870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no law of the excluded middle; it's not the same as "about" < 1270853872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I should come and terrorise you anyway < 1270853873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess you had full support from them fizzie < 1270853907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah but I use classical logic and consider LEM perfectly fine most of the time. < 1270853922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm not constructivist < 1270853923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but you're an anti-computer whorebag. < 1270853925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there. < 1270853930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1270853936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that follow? < 1270853943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE FOUR-COLOUR THEOREM DIN'T GET PROVED WITH DOUBLE NEGATION BEYOTCH < 1270853948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE CONSTRUCTED US SOME DAMN FINE MAPS < 1270853960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes and? < 1270853961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WE COMPUTED THE FUCK OUT OF THEM! < 1270853967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said constructivist methods doesn't work < 1270853990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.swfme.com/view/1046212 oh my god the pain < 1270853997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think that non-constructive ones are fine as well. < 1270853998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for the IRC bot announcing results, we did talk about that on the course channel last year, I just completely forgot about it; I did mention it not 15 minutes ago. It would probably be better to put it on the course channel instead of here, though. < 1270854013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, could be on both < 1270854024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and there is a course channel on freenode? or elsewhere? < 1270854034 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRCnet presumably < 1270854038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't want to try adding multi-server support in a Funge-98 bot. (What, so I should write it with something else?) < 1270854041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why? < 1270854045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRCnet, and it's mostly Finnish. < 1270854050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's where things tend to be < 1270854050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where all our course channels are. < 1270854061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Force of tradition and all. < 1270854069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also it should be possible with an external multiplexer currently < 1270854087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Incidentally, if you want to see all bots that should appear in the report sooner or later, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai/list.cgi has a list. < 1270854089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought IRCnet was next to dead? < 1270854095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@dinky:~$ mlton < 1270854096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MLton 20070826 (built Fri Oct 05 23:09:43 2007 on yellow) < 1270854100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ < 1270854103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /may/ be needing a REPL some time, MLton. < 1270854115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is mlton? < 1270854123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 74955 concurrent users isn't actually "dead". < 1270854130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what with it lacking services and so on < 1270854131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A whole-program optimising Standard ML compiler that produces uber-efficient code. < 1270854132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MLton is a compiler, not an interpreter < 1270854140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So's SBCL; it has a REPL. < 1270854145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly SBCL doesn't do the whole-program magic. < 1270854146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shush < 1270854155 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REPLs are below the dignity of something as awesome as MLton < 1270854159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still; MLton is incompatible with other MLs to some degree, so I don't feel good about using another interpreter as a REPL. < 1270854168 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270854172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, write it in the common subset? < 1270854187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There is no "common subset", some implementations just suck at the standard. < 1270854197 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The servicelessness is a matter of choice, not a sign of deadness. Though certainly it has gotten a bit quieter lately. < 1270854202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And OS interaction will always be slightly untransportable from one implementation to another without strict standardisation. < 1270854213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: STALIN is cooler than MLton. < 1270854222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top100.php user-count rankings still put it as the largest real IRC network; for obvious reasons I don't count QuakeNet. < 1270854227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STALIN just takes your code and beats the fuck out of it and spits out superhumanly good C. < 1270854231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah. < 1270854233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well follow the standard then, excluding the parts that very few support? < 1270854234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1270854242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reasonably widely supported subset < 1270854244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, I've decided that talking to AnMaster is fruitless. < 1270854250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least right now. < 1270854251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1270854260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you keep saying the same stupid thing. < 1270854282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure why the top-100 page doesn't list freenode, though; the top-10 page does.) < 1270854287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you don't even make sense < 1270854292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now* < 1270854307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, has any bot hit 2 so far? < 1270854312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean < 1270854318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the results are finished for a given year < 1270854327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think with MLton I could approach the speed of cfunge using the same implementation techniques. < 1270854339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw is there any perfect play in that game? < 1270854359 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: None of the officials, but the 2008 winner got a perfect score in the 2009 tournament. < 1270854362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Only approach cfunge? Psh. :-P < 1270854368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing sane macroptimisation like Deewiant... I could easily surpass it. < 1270854374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I said "using the same implementation techniques". < 1270854375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1270854382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, the game's not solved. < 1270854386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, you did. Psh. < 1270854396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're essentially implementing retarded algorithms, then you can't beat retarded inline ASM. < 1270854411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What, you think MLton regularly beats microprofiled ASM? :-) < 1270854425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway what with the t issue fixed now in cfunge it is way closer < 1270854428 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think AnMaster's asm is any good? ;-) < 1270854435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't use much asm < 1270854435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1270854437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1270854441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, but I think he's tried every possible string of ASM to find the fastest. < 1270854442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"much at all"? < 1270854461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may need to poke at cfunge and see what it's doing. Maybe beat it into a pulp. :P < 1270854466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think cfunge is pretty shitty code TBQH. < 1270854490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in, one function, the one that fills the static funge space. Which uses SSE non-temporal stores to avoid a rather large "read block into cache first" hit < 1270854509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it fills it with the space pattern for empty < 1270854513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, but I'm curious. < 1270854515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, let's implement ber-nave algorithms. Now, let's unroll the fucking loops! Oh shit it doesn't match the standard. Let's copy from CCBI. Now: ASM time!" < 1270854524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth would weep. < 1270854529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you are just silly you know < 1270854544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "Oh shit it doesn't match the standard." hasn't happend so far like that < 1270854545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ber-nave -- now there's a loanword amalgamation you don't see every day. < 1270854559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they aren't < 1270854561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: considering I've heard you just copy from CCBI when your shit is broken I disagree entirely < 1270854582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is an exaggeration < 1270854583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't care what you think as I already know you think cfunge is a perfectly innocent well-implemented, well-optimised non-CCBI-copy < 1270854591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's none of these things but I don't really care what you think < 1270854595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... at all < 1270854615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have based my code on CCBI in two fingerprints, that is all basically: TURT and 3DSP. Because at the time I implemented those I didn't know very much of the underlying theory < 1270854623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like matrix math for 3DSP < 1270854628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, fastcall really doesn't do that much, especially compared with better implementation. :P < 1270854654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which variant of fastcall btw? < 1270854659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it does *fuck-all* on inlined-functions. < 1270854688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in gcc? well I generally use clang these days < 1270854690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no idea < 1270854708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It *cannot* do anything for inlined functions. < 1270854716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I mainly target x86_64. It isn't like the inline asm is even used for x86 < 1270854749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fastcall means "pass the arguments in registers". A static inline function means "this function is essentially a safe macro." < 1270854751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, that would depend on register allocation. After all inlining means copying the code for it. So fastcall would simply not apply to the inline usages < 1270854770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. And I'm saying fastcall on a static inline function cannot do anything. < 1270854771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish ML didn't call its numbers "reals". < 1270854774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not really reals. < 1270854777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT YOU STILL DO IT. < 1270854779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so it isn't really relevant except to the cases where it is emitted as a call < 1270854780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call them "fakes" :P < 1270854788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which it shouldn't be. < 1270854789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the compiler is free to not inline static inline < 1270854807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Test. Your. Damned. Optimisations. < 1270854828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Oh I certainly profiled that attribute. You think I don't profile? < 1270854851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: AnMaster found a 0.0001s difference and thought that it was obviously his genius, not acceptable margin of error < 1270854867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, over average of 200 runs (if I remember the numbers correctly, was over a year ago) there was a 4% speedup on average iirc < 1270854890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... fastcall on functions *without arguments*? < 1270854896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wherein you were testing on Mycology or some such < 1270854900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is literally impossible for that to do anything. < 1270854900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cargo cult, hells yeah < 1270854917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put the line in, run run run, wow it's faster, 4% on a program that runs almost immediately anyway! < 1270854920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is clearly a GOOD THING! < 1270854922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? It may have slipped on some such function by mistake I guess < 1270854929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it would simply have no effect there then < 1270854957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for example editing of code can leave such things remaining for example < 1270854987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it still sucks. < 1270855009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does? An __attribute__ that happens to have no effect? < 1270855027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270855032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now I guess you sound like alise in code aesthetics < 1270855051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw since I think personal attacks are just irritating he is now on ignore) < 1270855060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, please; because we have taste and don't just leave meaningless cruft around that will later be defended with "it makes it go faster" we're Apple-loving beauty freaks. < 1270855062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like having "0;" all over the place. < 1270855075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, perfectly fine. Esoteric too. < 1270855079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat < 1270855082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it *doesn't do anything*, but that doesn't make it not *ugly*. < 1270855085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personal attacks, yeah, those things that I did none of. < 1270855090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why are you wasting your time? < 1270855093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about IOCCC then? < 1270855103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't even understand what a personal attack is < 1270855107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IOCCC is about making the ugliest, most unreadable code. < 1270855128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unless you are actually trying to do that, STOP DOING THINGS THAT MAKE CODE HARDER TO READ FOR NO BENEFIT. < 1270855159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well then I suggest you complain at ais for C-INTERCAL next time he is here < 1270855167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's C code is sometimes quite wonderfully weird < 1270855186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unreadable doesn't even begin to describe many parts of ick < 1270855190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: AnMaster likes to defend his code's inadequacy by half the time pointing out that LOL ESOTERIC, and the other half talking about how much he values coding standards. < 1270855203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think you can reason a man out of a position he did not reason himself into? < 1270855213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yet I haven't heard you complain about that yet. < 1270855216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You have fastcall on functions without arguments *everywhere*. < 1270855236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That there is *retarded* and cargo cult programming. < 1270855240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no. I'm quite sure I don't. < 1270855254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you like me to start listing them? < 1270855263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, plus actually it did more than just fastcall at one point. < 1270855267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be good to know < 1270855270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool fungespace_create(void); < 1270855273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it could be cleaned up < 1270855275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void fungespace_free(void); < 1270855282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, those used to take argument < 1270855287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess I forgot to update there < 1270855297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, feel free to submit a patch < 1270855316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider it high priority < 1270855320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instructionPointer * ip_create(void); < 1270855323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other more important issues < 1270855331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ipList* iplist_create(void); < 1270855354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, those two never took argument as far as I can recall, so accident there I guess. < 1270855361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funge_stack * stack_create(void); < 1270855372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but listing them won't help with anything < 1270855377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the point of doing so < 1270855390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better submit a patch if you care that much < 1270855420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void sysinfo_cleanup(void); < 1270855423 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270855432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, took a parameter before < 1270855434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also as I said < 1270855442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this listing is completely and utterly pointless < 1270855451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :genxWriter genxNew(void); < 1270855462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, screw the list. < 1270855464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, what I plan to do next is test the new speed up for the fork benchmark better. Then push it < 1270855466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that < 1270855469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new funge space < 1270855474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1270855475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suffice it to say *every single (void) function is fastcall*. < 1270855490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see above though < 1270855495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: genx isn't even AnMaster's code -- clearly he's fucked with it to break it < 1270855496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you obviously didn't read < 1270855501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq, plus actually it did more than just fastcall at one point. < 1270855504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that line to be specific < 1270855523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: EEEEW. < 1270855530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? < 1270855549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sense < 1270855566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A macro that implies that it's just for fastcall doing more than that? < 1270855577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking away your C license. < 1270855584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it did something else for speed. I don't remember what < 1270855593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOAAAAAAAAAR SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED < 1270855595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it was ever comitted < 1270855599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not < 1270855605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also. < 1270855605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :committed* < 1270855605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGE_ATTR_FAST static inline void discard_line(void) < 1270855617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Speaking of suxbot, did you see how much it crashes?-) < 1270855617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that one also used to take a parameter < 1270855618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so again < 1270855627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ITS STATIC INLINE. < 1270855635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I didn't. Heh. < 1270855636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FASTCALL DIDNT DO ANYTHING WHEN IT DID. < 1270855638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, but it was used in more than one place before < 1270855644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reallysuxbot: int main(){*0} < 1270855644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1270855649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it still is < 1270855674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe it or not, GCC will still inline the shit out of static functions. < 1270855675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there is nothing that guarantees something *will* be inlined just because of "static inline" < 1270855686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it didn't for me before < 1270855705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just FYI. Complaining about frame size when some verbose parameter was on iirc < 1270855707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What I'm saying is you, sir, do cargo cult programming. < 1270855713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that you should stop it. Stop it now. < 1270855739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and I'm saying that isn't true. Due to a number of factors mentioned above < 1270855770 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270855777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "I'm too lazy to remove useless lines of code" < 1270855783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I would be interested in seeing you criticising the unreadable code of ick next. That is the very least I expect from you < 1270855786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1270855795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the sign of someone who should not be allowed near machinery more complex than a wheel. < 1270855802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1270855818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, next time ais is here I suggest < 1270855821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure he will like it < 1270855831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the convickt code is especially bad < 1270855841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is an expert at logical fallacy. < 1270855853 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doood < 1270855856 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wheel's are AWESOME < 1270855863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the code for threaded intercal using setjmp()/longjmp() is also quite horrible < 1270855865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever really thought about just how brilliant the wheel is? :P < 1270855868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ick sucking does not mean that you have cause to suck. < 1270855869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just means that ick also sucks. < 1270855883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but you should certainly go complain to ais about this? < 1270855884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1270855896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm going to go poke around at CIntercal. < 1270855901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Difference: ick sucks on /purpose/. < 1270855903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's esoteric C. < 1270855909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster's code isn't interesting-esoteric, it's just shit-esoteric. < 1270855912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, *C-INTERCAL < 1270855915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, iirc the yuk code (debugger) was also quite messy < 1270855920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ick is *meant* to be unreadable? < 1270855935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, so is parts of cfunge. < 1270855935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, its parser uses Perl idioms to pay homage to CLC-INTERCAL. < 1270855938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then. AnMaster, your point is "ick is meant to suck therefore I can get away with sucking." < 1270855940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's basically some of the fun :-) < 1270855953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is just lying, his code isn't interesting-shit, it's just shit that he can't write properly so he falls back on the esoteric excuse < 1270855958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard it all before < 1270855958 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What could be fun: C implementation that complies with the standard. Except that all the undefined and implementation defined behavor would be really funky. < 1270855963 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270855970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can be reduced to "I'm a terrible programmer. Fuck you." < 1270855997 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: AKA a DS9K implementation < 1270856001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: DeathS- what Deewiant said. < 1270856028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unreadable code fits right into cfunge I feel. Consider the quite horribly unreadable macro stuff in lib/libghthash that double includes files to do something like C++ templates in C < 1270856039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a nice piece of unreadable code I feel < 1270856057 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270856057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well worth checking out if you like unreadable code! < 1270856062 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, 17 bit chars, 34 bit shorts, 51 bit ints, 68 bit longs and 85 bit long longs. Or something even more crazy. < 1270856083 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270856087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, doesn't char have to be a power of two in C99? < 1270856094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGE_ATTR_FAST FUNGE_ATTR_NOINLINE FUNGE_ATTR_COLD FUNGE_ATTR_NORET static void print_features(void) < 1270856098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU < 1270856105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE DUMB IT HURTS < 1270856109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1270856119 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270856122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay I'm breaking your mind! < 1270856125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised pikhq hasn't noticed cfunge before now. < 1270856131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't cold override fast there? < 1270856140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No. < 1270856148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was truly the one thing that made me realise that AnMaster was irretrievably insane. < 1270856151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cold" just means that it won't be stuck in the "hot" section. < 1270856159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the fast one could be dropped. < 1270856160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the info! ... not < 1270856166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGE_ATTR_COLD? < 1270856177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGE_ATTR_HAWT < 1270856180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This is not the "holy fuck that's crazy" reaction that you get to say, Malbolge. < 1270856196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the "holy fuck THAT IS RETARDED I HATE YOU" reaction that you get to, say, LOLCODE. < 1270856207 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think there are more requirements than integer number of bits at least 8. < 1270856221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you look at the double include in that file I mentioned? < 1270856230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but yes that FUNGE_ATTR_FAST should be removed < 1270856234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that it looks fine < 1270856248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGE_ATTR_NORET is to allow error checking anyway < 1270856252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "mlton foo.sml" isn't terminating. < 1270856256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the optimiser even use it? < 1270856257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, now it is. < 1270856259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was slow. < 1270856263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NOINLINE. In a static. Void. Function. That is only called once. < 1270856268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But now it's fast! < 1270856279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes! It prints "Hello, world!" in 0.002 seconds. < 1270856280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is "fuck you, optimiser, I'm going to make you do soemthing dumb". The attribute. < 1270856286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, correct. But why fill up the cache line for the "normal" path of code execution ;P < 1270856288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing. < 1270856300 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Imagine! It probably would've taken 0.004 if it'd've compiled it in only half a second < 1270856306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh... < 1270856307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, after all it is for printing some info about the binary < 1270856308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Benchmark. < 1270856323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DEMAND TO SEE BENCHMARKS JUSTIFYING EVERY SINGLE STUPID OPTIMISATION YOU HAVE MADE. < 1270856325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Of course, OCaml and Haskell both compile faster into similarly-performing binaries (OCaml beating Haskell by a lot). < 1270856332 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 17 bit chars, 34 bit shorts, 51 bit ints, 85 bit longs and 119 bit long longs... < 1270856334 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yep < 1270856348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17 bit chars, ew < 1270856350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SML/NJ, too. < 1270856351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, you are not my employer. So that you have to do yourself < 1270856368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Don't go backpedaling on the language choice, now < 1270856376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Premature optimisation is the root of all evil. < 1270856376 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the canonical character set is is something totally whcky. < 1270856377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like anyone would pay AnMaster to code < 1270856379 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least when I write ugly code, I admit that the code is ugly < 1270856379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd pay him not to code < 1270856382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 17 bit char sounds fantastic < 1270856387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he's ever written nice code < 1270856389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your code is filled with premature optimisation. < 1270856389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SML/NJ is Standard ML too, you know :P < 1270856401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you look at the double include stuff? < 1270856404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, your code is made of evil. And not the enjoyable kind. < 1270856407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Where? < 1270856407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes or no? < 1270856414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's fine, OCaml and Haskell aren't ;-P < 1270856415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Where*? < 1270856421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I mentioned it above. *unreadability* WAS A GOAL < 1270856429 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lib/libghthash < 1270856431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, An express goal yes < 1270856433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Where*? < 1270856439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if you don't read what I say *shrug* < 1270856444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I mentioned it above < 1270856445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I missed it. < 1270856449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lib/libghthash < 1270856450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, your loss < 1270856456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just saw "did you look at it in that file I mentioned?" < 1270856469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your loss I'm afraid < 1270856482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes Deewiant told you < 1270856487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib/libghthash is a directory, AnMaster. < 1270856488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you ignored that too < 1270856494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes but it affects the files in there < 1270856495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow AnMaster is so pissy < 1270856496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them < 1270856496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda funny < 1270856500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270856503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like i can feel him actually getting angry behind the screen < 1270856504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh... < 1270856508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cute. < 1270856512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell is your *point*? < 1270856523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that unreadability *is* a goal sometimes in cfunge < 1270856525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Files from there are double included"? < 1270856533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darke is once again active in B < 1270856555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the *_priv.h ones are included more than once to emulate C++ templates basically < 1270856559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I SAID ABOVE < 1270856563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've failed at *that* goal, too. Your code is just bad enough to make me think you're dumb. < 1270856565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your loss for not reading it < 1270856596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want unreadable code? < 1270856606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, .. if you aren't going to read what I say anyway < 1270856609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a,b,c;main(z,i)char**i;{h:a=!a,b=!b;g:(b-1)[1[i]]>b[i[1]]?a^=a,c=(b-1)[1[i]],1[i][b-1]=i[1][b],b[i[1]]=c,b=&b[(void*)1]:(b=&b[(void*)1]),!b[i[1]]?:({goto g;}),a?:({goto h;}),b=!b;j:putchar(b[1[i]])[(void*)(b=&b[(void*)1])],1[i][b]?({goto j;}):putchar('\n');} < 1270856610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to say anything < 1270856614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh nice < 1270856619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That's* unreadable code. < 1270856623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so it is. < 1270856631 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: wrong chanenl < 1270856633 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*channel < 1270856640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, looks familiar? < 1270856640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at hash_table_priv.h ATM. < 1270856648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, alise isn't in ##nomic for some reason < 1270856656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well I didn't write the hash library. < 1270856661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but I adapted it < 1270856672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks cargo-cultish. < 1270856687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, to the specialisation (because at that point a 50% speed increased showed up, that was before static funge space) < 1270856700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, maybe. I don't know what part would be < 1270856709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's done.. well, not cargo-cultish, but superstitious stuff before < 1270856738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but please go bash ick next. Because a lot of it's unreadability is on the same level as this < 1270856746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm going to bed. Night < 1270856750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the static inline fast-ness. < 1270856774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, actually I'm going to keep it. Because it does no harm. < 1270856791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was one line, that I couldn't figure out why, but I left it in [or left it uncommented], because I thoguht it was related to crashinexss < 1270856794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now night → < 1270856797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, on that day, new heights of pure idiocy were reached. < 1270856812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to litter my code with "0;"! < 1270856815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOORAY! < 1270856823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does nothing so WHATS THE HARM? < 1270856824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna start tagging all my functions static inline __attribute__((noreturn)) < 1270856827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the ones that return < 1270856886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, AnMaster: double-including a header file so you can redefine the macros used for it? < 1270856891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's fairly mundane. < 1270856899 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270856904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "unreadable", not "clever". Just mundane. < 1270856921 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270856932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you figured out how to twist the c preprocessor to do something actually useful as opposed to what it usually does (make code more confusing)! < 1270856933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ESOTERIC! < 1270856997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should write a language < 1270857064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1270857075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newlanguage : functionalprogramming :: glass : OOP? < 1270857091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So, Lazy K. < 1270857096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*logicprogramming < 1270857096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moar esoteric < 1270857100 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I think Unlambda has it covered. Or Lazy K, which I never heard of < 1270857115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K would be better without the multiple-syntaxes gimmick. < 1270857122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It would. < 1270857136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SKI-subset is what should be kept. < 1270857195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not *completely* sure on why you hawk on the static-inline-fastness so much, since it does at least have a theoretical chance of having an effect -- good or bad -- if the function happens to be not inlined for some reason. < 1270857216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the no-arg thing, I mean. < 1270857241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're ridiculously tiny functions, and it is very unlikely for them to either not be inlined or have the fastcall-thing matter. < 1270857248 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to write a .. relational DB language or something. Code and runtime stored in Database table < 1270857250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tables < 1270857272 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to do something similar before, but iirc, it was never-implemented crap < 1270857287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I only think it's crap because it was from a while ago < 1270857311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that he just went through and fastcalled everything. < 1270857328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a fastcall? < 1270857331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MLton supports continuations via callcc and throw. < 1270857331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MLton has a facility for saving the entire state of a computation to a file and restarting it later. This facility can be used for staging and for checkpointing computations. It can even be used from within signal handlers, allowing interrupt driven checkpointing. < 1270857333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll like this language. < 1270857353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that more of an implementation thing than a language thing, having stuff stored in a DB table? < 1270857369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "fastcall" is an alternate C calling convention that sticks arguments in registers. < 1270857384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, prolog handles arithmetic so shittily < 1270857392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably doesn't work with most FFIs, does it? < 1270857399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not cleanly. < 1270857422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any other reasons not to use Fastcall? < 1270857439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the standard calling convention. < 1270857461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has some limitations on what arguments your function can take. < 1270857478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me cockpunch you for using it everywhere. < 1270857661 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the FFI issue, it seems it would be bad to make public API functions use fastcall < 1270857670 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270857696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows has 3 or 4 different calling conventions in its public API, BTW. < 1270857730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit of a microsoftism, in the sense that I think GCC got it to be compatible with MS __fastcall. Though I'm not entirely sure of the history. < 1270857731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O that sounds.. annoying < 1270857762 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, being sick sucks :( < 1270857827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, feel better soon < 1270857866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly hope so :/ < 1270857903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, there's a possbility you won't? :( < 1270857924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I've been fighting this damn thing on and off for two weeks < 1270857946 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, see a doctor? < 1270857956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have; says it < 1270857959 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*says it's just a cold < 1270857966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feels like just a cold too < 1270858003 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as it really IS just a cold < 1270858042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... CANCER < 1270858097 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would seriously suck :( < 1270858168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do I hate myself? < 1270858196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from all that copprophilia. < 1270858258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION groans < 1270858352 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sane human being could possible want to do what I am doing right now... therefore I am insane < 1270858366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but logical. < 1270858385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what are you doing? < 1270858399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :playing IWBTG < 1270858402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270858420 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270858455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's only valid classically, I think < 1270858482 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... I've made it past the up-falling apples < 1270858488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfft, that's easy < 1270858512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now for the clouds :( < 1270858524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wimp, that part of the game is easy < 1270858549 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270858685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice to have a logical operation that didn't need parenthesising < 1270858691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like with nand you still need delimiters of some sort < 1270858692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must be using some dictionary I don't know of < 1270858706 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: More vitamin D? :-> < 1270858706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if we had an operation where we could specify either left or right associativity < 1270858718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have it stand in for all our operations < 1270858731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we could just say a logical expression is a list of variables and quantifiers, pretty much < 1270858803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tihnk that's impossible though :( < 1270858804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think < 1270859337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION despises seeded grapes < 1270859356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about seeded bananas? < 1270859394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How ARE you supposed to eat these damn things?!? < 1270859420 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270859471 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me: Can I just swallow the seeds? Dad: No. Me: What will happen if I do? Dad: Nothing < 1270859479 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270859781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a problem with your dad, not the seeds. < 1270859797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest sending him in for repairs. < 1270859809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi - sqrt(pi)^2 = -0.0000000000000008881784; this thing really shouldn't be called "real" < 1270859827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so, does that mean I should just eat the damn seeds? < 1270859828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unreal arithmetic < 1270859847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to < 1270859965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the flip side, i vaguely recall a long time ago my dad said one _should_ eat the cores of apples. i also vaguely recall recently reading apple seeds _are_ poisonous. < 1270860041 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple seeds contain trace amounts of cyanide < 1270860049 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are undigestable in any case < 1270860053 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270860066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds a video called "how to eat seeded grapes properly" < 1270860082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saved by the internet :D < 1270860135 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that helpful < 1270860145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He goes over what DOESN'T work < 1270860173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely recalls when he had seeded grapes, he just ate the damn seeds < 1270860178 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/961122/how_to_eat_nonseedless_grapes.html < 1270860211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think chewing the seeds was a bit mixed experience, though < 1270860230 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonseedless, what a nice way to put it. Why not unnonseedlessless? < 1270860254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "how to eat seedy grapes" would have had the wrong connotations. < 1270860275 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: lawl wtf < 1270860290 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ate "non-seedless" grapes for years, we grew them in our back yard :P < 1270860295 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proper way to eat them ... is to eat them :P < 1270860309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including the seed>? < 1270860342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is so complicated for Sgeo! < 1270860348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how /do/ you open a banana anyway? < 1270860374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i've heard there's been some recent progress on banana opening technique < 1270860384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the way i've always done it is not the best < 1270860399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sledgehammer. < 1270860406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with the monkey technique is that... I forget < 1270860411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something wrong with it, anyway < 1270860413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heavier the better. < 1270860420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'd stick to what you're doing < 1270860434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i usually make a small break by the stem, then unwrap) < 1270860468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's probably messy or something < 1270860484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.flickr.com/photos/philgyford/4505748943/sizes/o/ < 1270860484 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                        | < 1270860484 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                       /< < 1270860487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're _monkeys_ after all < 1270860494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, myndzi < 1270860525 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with eating the peel, exactly? < 1270860534 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I eat banana peels) < 1270860576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they shouldn't use 100%, that looks unprofessional and makes us think they grew up in north korea or something < 1270860608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect it's somewhat stringy? < 1270860635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also probably covered in pesticides < 1270860693 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think monkeys care about pesticides so much < 1270860715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably why they're endangered. < 1270860787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, he actually suggests blowing the seeds out of your mouth < 1270860857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it goes with the outside recommendation from earlier. < 1270860876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems ill-adapted to norwegian conditions. < 1270860893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely tangential, but: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=104059&stc=1&d=1270799424 RoE is going to be awesome. < 1270860932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steam, for the moments where it worked, showed RoE in My games, as a trial thing < 1270860940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad I can't get Steam to not crash < 1270861010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Rise of the Eldrazi? < 1270861024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not sure < 1270861155 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indeed! < 1270861183 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he'll actually be playing at the prerelease < 1270861224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i thought your comment about grammars was more interesting than the conversation around it < 1270861234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1270861238 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sewing grammars! < 1270861346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that one < 1270861356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its quite interesting < 1270861366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna hear about them? :x < 1270861372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1270861384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just leaving, give me a there line explanation (short lines) < 1270861389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*three < 1270861424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok here goes < 1270861437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i won't count that as one cuz i like you. < 1270861503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sewing grammar consists of two sets of n-dimensional string vectors like (where 0 is the empty string); one set is the basis, the other is the rules. < 1270861582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vector concatenation is what you expect, e.g. + = . the vector language of the grammar is just the basis closed under right-concatenation with the rules < 1270861617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. b + r0 + r1 + ... for b in the basis, and r0, r1, ... in the rules < 1270861633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the string language is the set of strings generated by applying some function to the members of the vector language < 1270861678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry we'll have to ignore that last line, you went over quota < 1270861683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270861684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270861709 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just as an example, take the classic non-CF language a^n b^n c^n < 1270861728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taken < 1270861743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has no solutions for n > 2. i know this! < 1270861754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let the basis be just <0,0,0>, and let the rules be just , and let the string-generating function be f = xyz < 1270861775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270861787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<0,0,0> + + + ... is , obviously. < 1270861794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1270861803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or take a^n b^m c^n d^m < 1270861817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and <0, b, 0, d> < 1270861826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let the basis be <0,0,0,0> and let the rules be and <0,b,0,d> < 1270861827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1270861829 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there you go. < 1270861848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish we had more courses about grammarness < 1270861867 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or take the word duplicate language ww for w in {a,b}* < 1270861878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for all letters < 1270861882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B = <0,0>, R = , < 1270861883 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270861901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sewing grammars: pretty easy. < 1270861925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i find it intriguing, what can you express with it? < 1270861930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, how you get more traditional CF languages i dont know. < 1270861930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess depends on f < 1270861948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paper i learned about them from just addressed these kinds of phenomena < 1270861957 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for palindromes, just make f reverse the latter one < 1270861957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balanced nested parens, for instance? no clue. < 1270861973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's why they let you have a function and not just concatenation in the end < 1270861979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. the problem with having f as a non-concatenative function is that it could be almost anything < 1270861988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1270861997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why "i guess depends on f" < 1270862001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270862003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1270862007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go to sleep oklopol. :p < 1270862018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not so much sleep as algebra < 1270862023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe sleep too < 1270862054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for showing me the ways of sewing ~~~> < 1270862424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebra! < 1270862637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algae bras < 1270863418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, Caml was developed to implement Coq. < 1270863437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML, on the other hand, originated in LCF (later HOL, Isabelle, etc.). < 1270863440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof war! < 1270863937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: thats rather interesting < 1270863992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making a language in order to implement a language? < 1270864020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it makes sense < 1270864032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, proof systems are really complex < 1270864038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1270864040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want an expressive functional language to do it in < 1270864060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually making caml then making coq is way less effort in the long run than e.g. writing coq in c < 1270864066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and longer-lasting bitrotwise) < 1270864074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not Haskell? < 1270864085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some other language. i imagine that imperative languages might be useful for some sorts of logic < 1270864128 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270864186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: didn't exist at the time < 1270864191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ not very performant, < 1270864195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ personal taste < 1270864198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, this was way before haskell < 1270864200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :late 80s early 90s < 1270864281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell debuted 5 years after caml, just fyi. caml: 1985, haskell: 1990 < 1270864306 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I attempt to learn O'Caml? < 1270864326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1270864345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a name for a language phenomena < 1270864349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone care to help? :X < 1270864355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its not really a language phenomena < 1270864372 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any way to avoid tutorials that assume I've never seen a functional language before? < 1270864373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a formal property of certain kinds of grammars, but it relates to linguistic phenomena < 1270864486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any reason to learn O'Caml when I know Haskell < 1270864520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: diverse perspective. < 1270864546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: O'Caml has objects. < 1270864559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can drink the OOP coolaid. < 1270864566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Koolaid, too. < 1270864579 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drinks pikhq's Koolaid < 1270864608 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10099/1048991-67.stm?cmpid=newspanel1 I'd drop TV in a heartbeat < 1270864630 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a TV. < 1270864631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you mean the phenomena of using -a plural nouns in the singular? < 1270864632 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I almost never turn on a TV, I use Hulu. If it came down to Hulu vs. rest of the Internet, I would drop Hulu < 1270864633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its connected to my PS2. < 1270864650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no. i presume you mean "data" as a singular? < 1270864650 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270864653 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Hulu/Hulu and .. other means of watching shows/g < 1270864659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and, _phenomena_ < 1270864753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its work pointing out that both of those words are loan words, and so its invalid to say that it's an -a plural. it's merely an irregular plural, english has no class of -a plurals as an actual class of the language, they exist only epiphenomenally as an artifact of the source language. < 1270864778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, "phenomena" is an accepted, tho less common, singular form of the word < 1270864799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :third, "data" in many dialects is a mass noun (like milk), hence "the data is" ~ "the milk is" < 1270864854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still prefer "the datum is". < 1270864874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, then, I'm a nerd who thinks English isn't complex enough. :P < 1270864889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english morphology isnt complex, this is true < 1270864906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, neither is latin or greek, in the grand scheme of things. < 1270865082 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but english has plenty of complexity syntactically < 1270865095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want some introductions to this complexity, i would be happy to provide. :) < 1270865118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, why not? < 1270865156 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1270865168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favorite example is extraction islands and parasitic gaps < 1270865243 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1270865251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do these things like extract sub-elements, right < 1270865252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1270865265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John saw [the man] ==> [the man] that John saw ___ < 1270865271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To add two floats together you need to use a different operator, +. (note the trailing period). < 1270865274 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds fun < 1270865277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270865287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can do it from both subject and object position < 1270865298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[the man] saw John ==> [the man] that ___ saw John < 1270865309 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can only do it once < 1270865312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance < 1270865365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[the man] saw [the woman] ==> [the man] that ___ saw [the woman] ==> ... ==> John saw [the man] that ___ saw [the woman] =/=> [the woman] that John saw [the man] that ___ saw ___ < 1270865388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: make sense? < 1270865413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the why behind it, but just the fact of the matter < 1270865438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's with the ;; thing? < 1270865456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: o.O < 1270865461 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1270865463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: stop trying to learn ocaml. < 1270865467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a very good language < 1270865480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about it. < 1270865486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, also, don't diss things like that; they're design choices < 1270865494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i presume you understand roughly what im showing with "John saw [the man] ==> [the man] that John saw ___" < 1270865495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1270865508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1270865551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i presume you get what i'm showing with "[the man] that the woman saw ___ ==> John saw [the man] that the woman saw ___" < 1270865552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah? < 1270865577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"o.O" is not a reaction of not understanding. < 1270865587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok :p < 1270865595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an expression of "thats fucking weird"? < 1270865623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270865631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want some more weirdness? :) < 1270865662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ignoring syntactic ugliness is a prerequisite for learning ocaml < 1270865687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John saw [the man] before he met him ==> [the man] that John saw ___ before he met him < 1270865692 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1270865710 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no lets say not "met him" but "met the woman" < 1270865732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John saw the man before he met [the woman] =/=> [the woman] that John saw the man before he met ___ < 1270865735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English's syntax is crazy when you actually think about it. < 1270865771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to some degree. its quite well behaved, but it has a bunch of bizarre phenomena. this one actually is apparently a universal phenomena of language, but < 1270865773 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Should I switch to speaking Lojban? < 1270865783 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you see how that last one is weird? < 1270865799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1270865799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant extract out of an adverbial clause "before he met the woman" < 1270865845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok now watch this < 1270865864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that john saw the woman before he met that same woman < 1270865866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now: < 1270865880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[the woman] that John saw ___ before he met ___ < 1270865979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up with that, huh < 1270866011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you extract out of the main clause object position, having the gap in the adverbial object position is no longer bad < 1270866084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the examples of that sort of thing multiply when you look at the different positions for the different gaps. < 1270866293 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270866347 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you write a music using Bohlen-Pierce notes? < 1270866388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a music. < 1270866493 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bohlen-Pierce music is music that the notes follow 3^(n/13) instead of 2^(n/12) < 1270866522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your grammar is horrible < 1270866527 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I heard of that! < 1270866539 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my local college radio station, I believe < 1270866542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that or NPR < 1270866631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sorry about that, i got augur wound up by criticising _his_ english < 1270866644 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your Englishes all are sucks. < 1270866644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all my fault, really < 1270866658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes only my english was grammatical, and you're not a native speaker. ;) < 1270866680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: hasn't prevented me from correcting native speakers before < 1270866693 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think anarchy golf is broken (it is now maintenance?), did I break it by setting the PID too much? < 1270866701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan speaks better English than many a native speaker. < 1270866714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well writes < 1270866717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. At least types it. No idea how well he speaks it out loud. :P < 1270866717 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but it DOES mean that your judgments are not reliable. your book knowledge might be, but your judgments are not. < 1270866763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur knows english when he sees it. also, pornography. < 1270866771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270866777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its true tho < 1270866783 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do most people NOT know pornography when they see it? < 1270866797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have exquisite book knowledge of english, but your intuitions about english will never match a native speakers < 1270866799 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are all these naked people putting their body parts into each other in this picture ... what's going on?" < 1270866803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same is true for any language < 1270866808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Dude, all that's merely a matter of how much correct English he's seen. Of course, hardly any non-native speaker is going to be exposed to the foreign language as much as a native speaker is... < 1270866822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, it doesnt matter how much correct english he's seen < 1270866834 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like to watch pornography < 1270866849 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are certain things that are not possible for a non-native speaker to get, for some reason. < 1270866869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not without extreme attention given to the issue in question < 1270866926 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to play some Worms < 1270866942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a difference between knowledge of facts of the language, vs knowledge of the procedure that resulted in those facts < 1270866984 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :native speakers possess procedural knowledge that is independent of the particulars, and hence they can produce judgments for arbitrary expressions < 1270867003 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can this procedural knowledge ever be taught to a non-native speaker? < 1270867013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :DO NOT FEED THE AUGUR | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second-language speakers, on the other hand, learn things as facts about particular words or constructions < 1270867019 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Yarly < 1270867023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: some of it can, some of it cant. < 1270867032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we dont actually _understand_ the procedural knowledge, so < 1270867038 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of it can, some of it Kant. < 1270867074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :DO NOT FEED THE AUGUR | /augur eats oerjan | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yipe < 1270867094 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's go back to porn :P < 1270867102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :DO NOT FEED THE AUGUR | /augur eats oerjan out | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that what you mean tby "eat" < 1270867107 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1270867109 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win. < 1270867114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1270867126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i aims to please < 1270867205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | fuck the police | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867265 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | fuck the police | (pics or it didn't happen) | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | fuck the police | (pics or it didn't happen) | http://www.motherrussiasdaughters.com/images/euro-pornstars/euro-babe_2.jpg | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270867354 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the dagger style :P < 1270867370 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you came up with that link in a distressingly short amount of time :P < 1270867402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google images: "police uniform sex" < 1270867402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think i just said augur knows his pornography for no reason, do you? < 1270867414 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know my google-fu, more accurately. < 1270867418 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, that's not HIS pornography :P < 1270867423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR SO YOU CLAIM < 1270867425 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decidedly not. < 1270867433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, the "his" was a typo < 1270867444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it wasnt < 1270867445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or misremembering, rather < 1270867447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a different his. < 1270867455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1270867473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english lets you say "I know my X" to mean "I know a lot about X" < 1270867493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to meaning "I know the X that belongs to me" < 1270867507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly for other possessive pronouns. < 1270867516 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just riffing off the ambiguity :P < 1270867541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION riffs off gregor's ambiguity < 1270867543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1270867563 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rips off augur's ambiguity < 1270867578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1270867582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot < 1270867592 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I say "ambiguity"? < 1270867595 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant "clothes" < 1270867645 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we go back to English now? X-P < 1270867663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also consider pied piping < 1270867703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse its considered bad form to strand your prepositions, eg "who(m) are you talking to" vs. "to who(m) are you talking" < 1270867730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in some cases, you have to do more than just move the preposition along with the WH phrase < 1270867733 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh pffft. < 1270867738 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To consider that bad form is quite outdated. < 1270867749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but it was an example of pied piping < 1270867751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hey, i was trying to subtly get us _away_ from English, here. and failing miserably. < 1270867759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To whom is it that you are speaking? < 1270867761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you bring the extra but (the preposition) with you < 1270867767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but consider < 1270867772 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the kind of language up with which I cannot put. < 1270867773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot piping pies < 1270867776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"john was shocked by a book about joan of arc" is acceptable, but if you want to ask who the book is about < 1270867786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who was john shocked by a book about" < 1270867788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pretty horrible < 1270867799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesnt get better by pied piping the preposition: < 1270867806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"about who was john shocked by a book" < 1270867807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also horrible < 1270867813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you take the whole NP its fine: < 1270867816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A book about Joan of Arc John was shocked by; to whom it is that you are speaking is John. < 1270867818 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a book about who shocked john" < 1270867819 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Police police police police police police police. < 1270867821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit s/hot piping/piping hot/ < 1270867826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: XD < 1270867835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Police, in Buffalo < 1270867839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAWT BEASTIALITY < 1270867840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we,, sorry, "a book about who was john shocked by" < 1270867844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ni way < 1270867847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'ma go now < 1270867853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you cool dudes tomorrowz < 1270867858 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: see you < 1270867874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270867896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"john read about about joan of arc" < 1270867912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=?=> "who did john read a book about" < 1270867928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=?=> "about who did john read a book" < 1270867940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whomsoever < 1270867942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=/=> "a book about who did john read" < 1270867960 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here youve got pied piping that is _bad_ < 1270867985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone understands this phenomena/on either < 1270868023 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The famous Dr. Daniel Noone understands most everything. < 1270868040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its true < 1270868155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daniel Noone is an ancestor of Noonien Soong < 1270868166 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Booh hiss at Trek references :P < 1270868176 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should see this paper im working on < 1270868184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo hiss at working on things. < 1270868185 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1270868194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my example sentences are all star trek references < 1270868214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, instead of using the classical example "brutus stabbed caesar", i have "worf stabbed gowron" < 1270868222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :insted of "a small brown dog" its "a small brown targ" < 1270868246 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow. < 1270868247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain. < 1270868250 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needed that for thinking. < 1270868261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking is overrated. < 1270868298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Druhhhhhhh < 1270868329 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented how to make up Pokemon Red on 8x8 ASCII only display with 7 buttons it works fine < 1270868335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive decided that im going to use example sentences, in a series of papers, such that if you collected the example sentences together in order of appearance < 1270868352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually outline a plot of an episode of some random scifi show < 1270868446 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I like that idea a bit < 1270868458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sobs silently to himself in the corner. < 1270868526 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intention is to make the sequence of sentences unassuming, so that you wouldnt realize whats going on unless you're astute < 1270868533 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seq 100 1100 > /dev/dsp < 1270868544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. using farscape, babylon 5, firefly, efc, etc. < 1270868547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less well known scifi < 1270868575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, if someone comes up to you afterwards and indicates that they recognize the story, you've discovered a fellow nerd < 1270868580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and made a new friend < 1270868612 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes I suppose that helps. But first you have to figure out the best way to make the example like that < 1270868621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/friend/stalker/ < 1270868623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not that hard < 1270868629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: theres a difference? < 1270868633 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But gimme a minute! < 1270868638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, you put another line in there. < 1270868641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruined my nonsense zinger.' < 1270868647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270868655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i aims to displease < 1270868671 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, you aim to alter net pleasure. < 1270868682 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I was testing some computer and I typed in: yes > /dev/dsp < 1270868696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does that :P < 1270868705 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's unpleasant. < 1270868732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can type yes yyyyyyy to make it lower pitch < 1270868740 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more "y" you add, the low pitch < 1270868798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this in bash? < 1270868805 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1270868863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats useless < 1270868895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allit does is loop printing yyyyyyy < 1270868896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1270868909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can put > /dev/dsp < 1270868916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1270868916 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it will sound < 1270868934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :permission denied! D: < 1270868941 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats /dev/dsp < 1270868971 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you might also be able to use > /dev/audio or | aplay -t raw < 1270868971 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42nd notes. Just calculated that. Friggin' Chopin. < 1270868985 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270868995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well, im on a mac so < 1270869013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dood, they're the 7-tuplets of triplets! WTFWTF *boom* < 1270869015 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the equivalent mac command, I don't know what it is < 1270869020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither do i :D < 1270869034 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Mac have OSS? < 1270869036 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably "yes" is the same, though < 1270869044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: have you implemented the theory in Generative Theory of Tonal Music yet? < 1270869061 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Nope! < 1270869067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1270869068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do so! < 1270869072 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I've chosen to implement my fingers onto this piano instead. < 1270869080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o ok < 1270869989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1270870362 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270870482 0 :Oranjer1!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270870534 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270872385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270872840 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270873665 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270874102 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270874278 0 :Oranjer1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270874430 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270874580 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270874864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be entirely wrong to say that a VM is an interpreter for machine code? < 1270875014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270875358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270875380 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270875866 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270876113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270876209 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270876313 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1270876347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270876519 0 :Guest_126!~Guest_126@95.147.220.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270876545 0 :Guest_126!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Disconnected from OpenPilot Forums < 1270877290 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270877571 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270877581 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270878161 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270878197 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270878469 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270879064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270886305 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270886399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270886400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270886896 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270887163 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1270887661 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270889880 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270890457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1270890989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270891754 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270892307 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270894255 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1270894960 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270896285 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270898283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270900923 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270901136 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1270904604 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270905129 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270905353 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270905549 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270905634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning! < 1270906100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, G(12) > G_64 where G = goodstein function. < 1270906105 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270906111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it has a rather more complex definition. < 1270906158 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270906161 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1270906161 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1270908420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Champernowne_CF.png the champernowne constant has a pretty fucked up continued fraction < 1270908425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last term isn't even the complete one < 1270908543 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270910898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays with Prolog < 1270911294 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coool < 1270912063 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270912286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow symbolic differentiation in prolog is like... stupidly fucktardedly easy < 1270912316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, X, 1). < 1270912317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, 0) :- \+ X = Y. < 1270912317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U+V, X, A+B) :- d(U,X,A), d(U,V,B). < 1270912317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U*V, X, (U*A) + (V*B)) :- d(V,X,A), d(U,X,B). < 1270912317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U/V, X, (V*A) / (U*B) / (V^2)) :- d(U,X,A), d(V,X,B). < 1270912317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U^V, X, (V*(U^(V-1))) * A) :- d(U,X,A). < 1270912338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err omit that X,Y,0 line I just added it and it messes things up < 1270912351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x^2, x, R). < 1270912352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = 2*x^ (2-1)*1. < 1270912373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(X,R) :- d(X^2,X,E), R is E. < 1270912373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- foo(34, R). < 1270912373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = 68. < 1270912548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's \+ ? < 1270912586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ X succeeds iff X fails < 1270912587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ignore that line; it breaks stuff < 1270912587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to condition on X being a symbol < 1270912594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise every differentiation gets the extra possibility R = 0 < 1270912600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of what your variables could be < 1270912604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270912604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(X*Y,Y,X). < 1270912605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = 1, < 1270912605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y = 1*** ; < 1270912605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** * 1+** * 1, < 1270912605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y = ** * 1+** * 1 ; < 1270912606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: Out of local stack < 1270912609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where ** represents "anything") < 1270912614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1*** is 1*something < 1270912634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. "what values for X and Y make the derivative of X*Y over Y equal to X?") < 1270912680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how we use the fact that arithmetic isn't automatically evaluated to return a symbolic expression, but we can then easily numerically evaluate it < 1270912686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just the tree structure of prolog arithmetic < 1270912721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think your U^V is wrong < 1270912726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw if you use UPPERCASE VARIABLES as the variables for d it enumerates all the possible cases for the variable and the result... which is often not what you want < 1270912731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless V is a constant < 1270912744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(x^x, x, R) otoh will give you the expression < 1270912746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes... < 1270912752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to figure out how to express is-constant < 1270912766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think I can express it as: "V does not mention the variable" < 1270912776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just need to use the multivariable chain rule properly :) < 1270912795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but i'm lazy < 1270912847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is nice and short < 1270912857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U^V) = V*(U^(V-1))dU + ln U * U^V * dV < 1270912908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fiine. < 1270912937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but log is floating-point in prolog :( < 1270912940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, that's only if you evaluate it < 1270912944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the symbolic result will be precise < 1270912948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! this is perfect < 1270912973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I hope that prolog uses the same precedence as your expression < 1270912977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I really suck at operator precedence) < 1270912985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I have redundant parens in < 1270912989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(U*A) + (V*B) < 1270912993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think in (V*A) / (U*B) < 1270913024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that rule broke my system < 1270913038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do d(X^2, X, R) < 1270913041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not d(x^2,x,R) < 1270913078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lack a rule for constants < 1270913118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, division has a bug, should be (V*A - U*B) / (V^2) iirc < 1270913136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1270913139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck at mentally parsing things :( < 1270913154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or is that the wrong sign... < 1270913173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is right i think < 1270913205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term_variables(+Term, -List) < 1270913205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unify List with a list of variables, each sharing with a unique variable of Term.47This predicate used to be called free_variables/2 . The name term_variables/2 is more widely used. The old predicate is still available from the library library(backcomp). The variables in List are ordered in order of appearance traversing Term depth-first and left-to-right. See also term_variables/3. For example: < 1270913206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm unsure of the order of the terms < 1270913206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))) < 1270913207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds helpful < 1270913228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just looked it up that's right < 1270913232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1270913253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit, term_variables only works for UPPERCASES < 1270913262 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270913280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course, those are the variables, duh < 1270913341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270913345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I support differentiation on littles too < 1270913347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1270913348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, R) :- atom(X), \+ X = Y -> R is 0 ; R is 1. < 1270913360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can do this as two, shorter rules but then d(x,x,R) says R = 1 and then false which is irritating) < 1270913368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so will your ^ rule work now? < 1270913435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know why it didn't work the first time, how do you encode it? < 1270913444 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270913554 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270913656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U^V, X, V*(U^(V-1)) * A + log(U) * U^V * B) :- d(U,X,A), d(V,X,B). < 1270913812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks right to me < 1270913815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1270913970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it works at the expense of totally breaking things < 1270913981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I basically have to add the default rule that d(x) = 1 < 1270914135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also at the expense of, you know, not actually giving correct results < 1270914204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you _already_ have d(X,X,1) < 1270914331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1270914334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just changed things: < 1270914340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant(X, Y) :- number(X) ; atom(X), \+ X = Y. < 1270914340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, R) :- constant(X, Y) -> R is 0 ; X = Y -> R is 1. < 1270914365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x^2,x,E). < 1270914365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2*x^ (2-1)*1+log(x)*x^2*0. < 1270914370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *0 is fucking everything up < 1270914376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paren issue? < 1270914413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that's correct, that term is supposed to cancel out when the exponent is a constant < 1270914444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(log(x)*x^2*0) < 1270914452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ has lowest precedence < 1270914540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how come foo(n,R) = 0 for all n? given < 1270914545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(X,R) :- d(X^2,X,E), R is E. < 1270914549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is your rule in addition to the previous one? < 1270914722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what rule < 1270914738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "all n" < 1270914775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you evaluate foo(3,R), say, then of course you are doing d(3^2, 3, E) which is nonsense < 1270914799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot substitute values until _after_ you have differentiated with a proper variable < 1270914863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this worked before though :) < 1270914867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the other rules you can use uppercase vars too < 1270914898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only by luck. if you differentiated 3*x at x=3 it would break < 1270914953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right < 1270915030 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270915076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but prolog has no function to substitute lowercase atoms does it? < 1270915124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, but i'm sure you can write one < 1270915166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a shame though I thought it was so awesome :( < 1270915166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: mind - < 1270915169 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upper case i more efficient since it's essentially in-place update < 1270915174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X^2,X,E) with no constraints on X (e.g. argument) should work < 1270915180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it enumerates all the possible input pairs and output expressions < 1270915182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1270915193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(X^2,X,E). < 1270915194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** ^ 2, < 1270915194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 1 ; < 1270915194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2*X^ (2-1)*1+log(X)*X^2*0 ; < 1270915194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** + **, < 1270915195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2* (** + **)^ (2-1)* (1+1)+log(** + **)* (** + **)^2*0 ; < 1270915197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** + **, < 1270915198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2* (** + **)^ (2-1)* (1+ (1+1))+log(** + **)* (** + **)^2*0 < 1270915227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek :D < 1270915246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: writing a substitution function probably won't be so easy, as i have to handle variadic stuff < 1270915253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog should just be LOGICALLY CURRIED :))) < 1270915272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i didn't say there _wasn't_ a function to substitute lowercase atoms, i said i didn't know < 1270915304 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuk currying < 1270915309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i looked and couldn't find one < 1270915322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, d only ever generates function expressions with two arguments < 1270915323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convenient < 1270915327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the function is always constant < 1270915401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why subst(X, X, Y, Y). < 1270915401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst(F(A,B), X, Y, F(A2,B2)) :- subst(A,X,Y,A2), subst(B,X,Y,B2). < 1270915401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't parse < 1270915403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second line in particular < 1270915429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I wish you could do it for uppercase vars it'd be a lot prettier < 1270915465 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1270915467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um why can't you < 1270915487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't bind X < 1270915487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1270915488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do < 1270915496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X^2, X, E), X is 34, R is E. < 1270915496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270915504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1270915516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*X = 34 < 1270915524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1270915528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm problem is that generates the correct result /but/ < 1270915543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it says it has more terms < 1270915544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and going on loops < 1270915546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(trying every other number to see if it's 34) < 1270915600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is d/3 tries to substitute values for X < 1270915602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that it works < 1270915613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you can just put ! after < 1270915618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(Xv,R) :- d(X^2, X, E), X = Xv, R is rational(E), !. < 1270915648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- foo(pi, R). < 1270915648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = 6.28319. < 1270915649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I removed the rational()) < 1270915659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it seems cleaner to do it with x < 1270915665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then we can do more symbolic jiggery-pokery < 1270915723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, this is awesome < 1270915729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine how awkward it would be in C :-) < 1270915748 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Which prolog do you use? < 1270915756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SWI < 1270915760 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1270915773 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might play with prolog a little more today. I haven't in so, so long < 1270915779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gprolog sort of doesn't feel terribly prologish to me and i think has weird names for some procedures I use intuitively < 1270915785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the ones that aren't gprolog or SWI just seem really 90s < 1270915789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or completely dead) < 1270915795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or tied to some stupid platform) < 1270915815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sisctus is probably fine i've never tried it though < 1270915815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you may want to start with d(X, Y, Z) :- var(X), !, something... < 1270915869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define something :P < 1270915907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thing with constant above, perhaps < 1270915921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unify the two? or two separate ones? < 1270915929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I unify them then d(x,x,E) won't work < 1270915931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor d(x,y,E) < 1270915931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1270915951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway constant(X, _) always fails if X is a var < 1270915954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because X is neither a number nor an atom < 1270915980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well rewrite the case anyway, the point is _not_ to substitute the first argument ever < 1270915990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, A) :- var(X), !, X = Y -> A = 1. < 1270915991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, A) :- constant(X, Y) -> A = 0 ; X = Y -> A = 1. < 1270915994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that acceptable? < 1270916003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean I'm not quite sure what you want it to do < 1270916011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1270916020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess < 1270916038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant(X, Y) :- number(X) ; atom(X), X \= Y. < 1270916041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this the function at risk of substituting? < 1270916083 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the risk of substituting is in _all_ the d clauses for specific functions < 1270916103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1270916103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever you pass an (upper case) variable as the first argument < 1270916109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm stil not sure what you want me to do!! < 1270916111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*still < 1270916140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want you to prevent that substitution by doing a check for the first argument being variable, then cutting and handling it specially < 1270916161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes -- but specially how? < 1270916169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cutting is lame < 1270916172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want to break that d(X^2, X, E) generates all the possible in/out pairs? < 1270916176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, I hate you and all your children < 1270916193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh in that case move along, nothing to see here :D < 1270916202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1270916202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was a bug < 1270916254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270916257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's awesome < 1270916272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still need to figure out how to write < 1270916274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst(F(A,B),... < 1270916277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without syntax erroring < 1270916313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a predicate for breaking up terms into head + list of arguments < 1270916324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't pattern match? < 1270916325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :super fucking lame :( < 1270916335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway oerjan since when are you a prologer? < 1270916350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very barely < 1270916361 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"very barely" is not a time. < 1270916382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although for a long time i guess. i'm not quite sure, may have been already in high school < 1270916395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It is very barely a time. < 1270916408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that i found a book on it. i'm pretty sure i didn't have an actual implementation) < 1270916478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Evaluate Expr. Although ISO standard dictates that A=1+2, B is A works and unifies B to 3, it is widely felt that source-level variables in arithmetic expressions should have been limited to numbers. In this view the eval function can be used to evaluate arbitrary expressions.53The eval/1 function was first introduced by ECLiPSe and is under consideration for YAP. < 1270916479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :widely felt my ass < 1270916486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LULZ INNUENDO) < 1270916622 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why Father Widely ... whyyyyyy < 1270916628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270916638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm I dislike your exponential rule because there is no precise evaluation for log in Prolog < 1270916643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has no precise irrational type < 1270916655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should reinstate my other one only for the case where V is constant < 1270916695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. < 1270916785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just accept that the world is imprecise < 1270916821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270916825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Term =.. [Funtor|Args] < 1270916828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Functor < 1270916937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- subst(x^(x-x), x, y, R). < 1270916937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = y^ (y-y) ; < 1270916937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270916937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay hooray < 1270916947 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-7-76.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270917052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- subst(2*(x-y) + 0, x, flower, E). < 1270917052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2* (flower-y)+0 ; < 1270917052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270917052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- subst(2*(x-y) + 0 + (x*log(x/y)), x, flower, E). < 1270917052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270917056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so I need to handle single arg functions too :P < 1270917123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking that prolog would make an excellent CAS < 1270917277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how you're meant to do a map in prolog < 1270917397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping it'd be something awesome, like < 1270917408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :member(X, L), Y is X+1, assert(member(Y, L2)) < 1270917411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A YouTube video that I left in a tab overnight spontaneously decided to start playing < 1270917755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is it healthy to try and remove "foo ; false" things? < 1270917756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you get the one right result then a false < 1270917762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to change my code to stop it < 1270917870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1270917955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know whether that is possible. < 1270917991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is if you fuck with your code a lot :D < 1270917992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I've tried to teach people autodidactism, but I've realized they have to learn it for themselves." --shapr < 1270918004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false is what afaiu what you get when there _are_ no more results < 1270918024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well yeah < 1270918036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean if you tweak your program so that prolog thinks that there cannot be any more results < 1270918038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to maybe there might be) < 1270918040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't bother to prompt < 1270918043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get no falses < 1270918050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1270918061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess that's just a matter of adding cuts... < 1270918107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1270918156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you need to be careful not to ruin your actual wanted multiple results < 1270918167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270918178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh, i shouldn't have defined a map function < 1270918180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugs everywhere < 1270918184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am i meant to dooo this < 1270918188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manually recursive function?# < 1270918220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1270918308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x^2, x, E), subst(E, x, 42, E2), R is E2. < 1270918309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 2*x^ (2-1)*1+log(x)*x^2*0, < 1270918310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E2 = 2*42^ (2-1)*1+log(42)*42^2*0, < 1270918310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R = 84.0 ; < 1270918310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270918310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1270918323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is beautiful < 1270918345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making an Algebra system in Prolog? < 1270918372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270918372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just implemented differentiation :P < 1270918373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i suppose i might do that < 1270918399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant(X, Y) :- number(X) ; atom(X), X \= Y. < 1270918401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(X, Y, A) :- constant(X, Y) -> A = 0 ; X = Y -> A = 1. < 1270918401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U+V, X, A+B) :- d(U,X,A), d(U,V,B). < 1270918401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U*V, X, (U*A) + (V*B)) :- d(V,X,A), d(U,X,B). < 1270918401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U/V, X, (V*A - U*B) / (V^2)) :- d(U,X,A), d(V,X,B). < 1270918402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U^V, X, V*(U^(V-1)) * A + log(U) * U^V * B) :- d(U,X,A), d(V,X,B). < 1270918404 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: can I see your diff program? < 1270918408 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that it? < 1270918409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: yes, see above :P < 1270918410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270918430 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is subst() a predefined func? < 1270918435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x^(x/2), x, E). < 1270918435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = x/2*x^ (x/2-1)*1+log(x)*x^ (x/2)* ((2*1-x*0)/2^2). < 1270918442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: it doesn't handle functions other than those enumerated so it's not "production ready" < 1270918445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll show the whole file < 1270918540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/912899.txt?key=f9lcfe9rul5yb1kzk4czg < 1270918548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you evaluate symbolically like in foo2, the only cuts you need are the two in subst < 1270918557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise everything has one more potential result which always fails) < 1270918560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just aesthetics though < 1270918566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more convenient when using the REPL < 1270918570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for foo you really do need the ! though < 1270918578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it loops forever trying every number and failing because it isn't Xv :-) < 1270918632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you can also use this procedure to do a (really crappy) "search" for derivatives: < 1270918633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(X*Y, X, Y). < 1270918634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** * 1, < 1270918634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y = 1 ; < 1270918634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = ** * 1+** * 1, < 1270918634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y = ** * 1+** * 1 ; < 1270918635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: Out of local stack < 1270918646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(** meaning "anything that follows the rules of the function", I think) < 1270918665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also d would be better if it accepted any expression that doesn't mention the variable as constant but it doesn't < 1270918695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, despite its flaws i think it shows just how awesomely awesome prolog is < 1270918735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: If I were trying to make this actually useful for anything I'd start by, say, making the code handle function compositions and then doing cases for sin and the like < 1270918803 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270918808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it makes some assumptions... < 1270918811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x/x, x, E). < 1270918812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = (x*1-x*1)/x^2. < 1270918815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like x is not 0 < 1270918848 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, I am aware, jeez what do you take me for, sum kinda idoit??? < 1270918854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and really there should be a simplification function so that it says things like "-1" instead of "(x*0-1*1)" < 1270918860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: aware of what? < 1270918900 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: idk < 1270918904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay :P < 1270918930 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270919028 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270919043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's Alex ... < 1270919045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FROM THE FUTURE < 1270919051 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1002 years in the future) < 1270919082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNN < 1270919093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's come here to investigate why civilization collapsed < 1270919136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the people in 3012 don't understand cosmic irony < 1270919166 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes more than 1000 years to rediscover cosmic irony. < 1270919173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270919192 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It does not, however, take 1000 years from an apocalypse to discover time travel) < 1270919193 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270919196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1003 years to be exact. < 1270919259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: depends how deep the apocalypse < 1270919303 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... < 1270919346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you need to remove all knowledge that could be used to rebuild civilization fast... < 1270919495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... < 1270919510 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :146| I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... < 1270919695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ N*Sync is the best band ever! => For all bands xx, N*Sync is better than band x (or, x=N*Sync). A quick listen can easily show this statement false.]] < 1270919785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ A buggy line from a song (Everybody Loves My Baby, Jack Palmer and Spencer Willson, 1924): Everybody loves my baby; My baby don't love [anybody] but me. => For all persons x, x loves my baby. For all persons y, if my baby loves y, then y is me. If true, one can conclude the speaker is his own baby, and is narcissistic. ]] < 1270919789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the best page about basic quantifiers ever < 1270919838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270920495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(x^x^x,x,E), subst(E, x, 42, E2), R is E2. < 1270920496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: Out of global stack < 1270920497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a deficiency < 1270920544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's just in is < 1270920555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could fix it by substituting, e.g. something better at arithmetic :P < 1270920565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(given a few dozen oodles of memory naturally) < 1270920573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still stack overflows suck < 1270920638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other operations merely cause overflow) < 1270922188 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1270922419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol ** doesn't mean anything < 1270922422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means infinite :D < 1270922429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nesting < 1270922699 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270922726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, zeilbeger would so approve of using prolog to do stuff < 1270922744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's proved if you ran "seq(N), \+ prop(N)" for a while and it hasn't spit out a counterexample < 1270923243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: apparently var(X) is very unsound < 1270923244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logic-wise < 1270923262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and \+ plus copy_term/2 plus ! can express var/1 < 1270923274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cut really is quite insidious... < 1270923280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270923329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite obvious really (that var/1 is unsound; \+/1, copy_term/2 and !/0 doing var/1 is new to me) < 1270923340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(X) :- var(X), X=1, then foo(X): X = 1, but foo(1) fails < 1270923352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although < 1270923353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need copy_term... < 1270923358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i don't know, but oleg said it < 1270923365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to question oleg? < 1270923371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"With var/1, logic programming becomes programming in inconsistent logic." <-- well prolog /is/ turing complete... < 1270923379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog's built-in negation predicate \+/1 is just as dangerous as var/1: indeed, negation can express var/1 in one line: < 1270923380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vr(X) :- \+ \+ (X=0), \+ \+ (X=1). < 1270923382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270923384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i see < 1270923386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+/1 < 1270923386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1270923388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy_term/2 < 1270923389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1270923390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!/0 < 1270923394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can all express var/1 on their own < 1270923397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now THAT is scary! < 1270923411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i knew \+ could be expressed with ! and fail < 1270923426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Prolog's built-in negation predicate \+/1 is just as dangerous as var/1: indeed, negation can express var/1 in one line: < 1270923428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vr(X) :- \+ \+ (X=0), \+ \+ (X=1). < 1270923428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Only a variable can be, alternatively, unified with two distinct atoms (e.g., 0 and 1). The double-negation is symptomatic. The evaluation of ?-vr(X). succeeds with the answer X=_G180 (the variable X remains unbound). Goals vr(0), vr(1), vr(2), vr([0]), and vr([X|Y]) all fail. < 1270923428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the above example, the cause of unsoundness is obvious: the negated goal \+ (X=0) binds an existing free variable. This is called ``floundering''. Some Prolog systems report a run-time warning or an error in this case (floundering is not decidable statically). SWI Prolog, which is used for all tests here, lets floundering go undetected. < 1270923434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ X :- X, !, fail. < 1270923435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically negation makes prolog consistent < 1270923436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah! < 1270923440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ X . < 1270923469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what use is prolog without negation... < 1270923471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, some use, but not that much < 1270923519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah fail can express it < 1270923534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you do not even need ! I think? < 1270923537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nt(X) :- X -> fail ; true. < 1270923544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically I'm learning that 99% of prolog is inconsistent < 1270923551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's terrible about expressing var/1 on one line? < 1270923560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: var/1 makes prolog's logic inconsistent < 1270923567 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1270923571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For uniformity, we use the name vr/1 and define it here as the alias to the built-in var/1. We first ask the question if there is a value of X that makes foo(X) derivable from the current database of rules and facts. The Prolog system says yes and gives one such value, 1: < 1270923572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ?- foo(X). < 1270923572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : X = 1 < 1270923572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes < 1270923572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ?- foo(1). < 1270923574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : No < 1270923576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we verify the answer and check if indeed foo(1) is derivable from the current knowledge, we get the answer no. With var/1, logic programming becomes programming in inconsistent logic. We cannot generally trust any results. < 1270923591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The well-known elegant implementation of lambda-calculus in Prolog relies on copy_term/2. Because of that, copy_term/2 is the least objected to. Alas, copy_term/2, too, expresses var/1, also in one line: < 1270923592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vr(X) :- copy_term(X,0), copy_term(X,1). < 1270923596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Finally, cut, by itself expresses var/1: < 1270923596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : noteq(X,X) :- !, fail. < 1270923596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : noteq(_,_). < 1270923596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vr(X) :- (noteq(X,0), !, fail); (noteq(X,1), !, fail); true. < 1270923599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does var do? < 1270923644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var(X) succeeds iff X is a free variable; X remains unbound < 1270923647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. var(X) but not var(1) < 1270923653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: -> ; can be defined with ! as well. i sort of think of ! and fail as more primitive. < 1270923656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets us distinguish whether we're searching for instances of X < 1270923659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or checking if 1 satisfies it < 1270923662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in foo(X) :- ... < 1270923663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: true < 1270923673 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That.. doesn't sound that useful < 1270923674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just been tihnking of -> and ; as language constructs < 1270923675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thinking < 1270923714 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess when it comes to functions that return stuff through a free variable or something, it's a nice sanity check < 1270923714 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: brain ping < 1270923735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's basically for practical purposes < 1270923747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you want to avoid pathological really-high-complexity behaviours < 1270923755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when prolog tries searching < 1270924382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now I'm on a prolog kick :P < 1270924402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog-funge? < 1270924792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I considered that momentarily: but the slowness would be unbelievable. < 1270924803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, besides, it's not really suited for that. < 1270924811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You never solve any constraint problems in Befunge. < 1270924871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how's the ml-funge doing < 1270924987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out I only work on things that take my fancy at this very second :) < 1270925013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah :-P < 1270925027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, hey, give me motivation. :P < 1270925112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get to beat AnMaster at speed? I don't know. < 1270925161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You did that with D, and Tango at that. < 1270925171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Tango is possibly the worst code ever. < 1270925179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No challenge at all :) < 1270925194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tango is pretty good IMO < 1270925210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issues are mostly in the GC (which does not originate in Tango) < 1270925233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my workaround for that was to use C malloc/realloc/free :-P < 1270925537 0 :augur!~augur@wal-sas002.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270926008 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270926468 0 :b3n4dd1!~tarik@193.48.172.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270926768 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270926823 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270926910 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1270927051 0 :b3n4dd1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270927918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270927955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270928297 0 :aschueler!~alec@host81-156-146-158.range81-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270928510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you know if there is a predicate that will let me check if a certain thing is a predicate of a certain arity? < 1270928518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say I'm given foo/1, could I say foo-is-a-predicate-with-arity-1? < 1270928537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like as a test < 1270928547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ispredicate(X) :- predwitharity(X, 1) < 1270928573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("barely", he said) < 1270928606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i distinctly recall SWI had an index < 1270928607 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270928626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and predicates organized by subject < 1270928698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it's hopeless to look up :) < 1270928707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep finding almost-but-not-quites :(( < 1270928831 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270928977 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270929036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/doc_for?object=section%282%2c%274.14%27%2cswi%28%27%2fdoc%2fManual%2fexamineprog.html%27%29%29 < 1270929385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ^ < 1270929449 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270929455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find(x) := { ircsay("oerjan: " x "?"); awaitreply() } < 1270929475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually stumbled upon that page before though :-D < 1270929485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i don't see that it has what i want? < 1270929497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current_predicate? < 1270929515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270929517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current_functor < 1270929523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, predicate would work better < 1270929544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1270929553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current_predicate(X/N), current_functor(X, 1). < 1270929554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1270929555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X/1 < 1270929577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, then current_functor is redundant < 1270929597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think < 1270929621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- forall(predicate_, P, forall(empty, X, call(P,X))). < 1270929621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1270929639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall P:A=>Prop : forall X:Empty : P X < 1270929647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where empty(_) :- fail. < 1270929651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :predicate_(X) :- current_predicate(X/1). < 1270929652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1270929655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall(S,X,P) :- \+ (call(S,X), \+ call(P)). < 1270929682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also use forall(requirements,foo) where all variables are substituted -- this is built into SWI and so you can sweep the evil negation under the carpet < 1270929700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then: < 1270929701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- forall(predicate_(P), forall(empty(X), call(P,X))). < 1270929702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1270929790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice that we have such reasoning tools in a "dumb" constraint solver < 1270929817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you might want to update the fungicide page btw. I pushed the alternative IP list thing. Still, to really become faster I need a new funge space. But that will have to wait for a bit due to lack of time for something as complex. < 1270929823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait isn't forall(S,X,P) :- \+ (call(S,X), \+ call(P)). exists < 1270929842 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe make a release? < 1270929861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no time currently. I don't think I will make one very soon. < 1270929872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :messing around with sf.net, freshmeat and so on takes some time < 1270929969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does fungicide test stack stack begin/end much? If not that might be interesting < 1270929981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall x, P) = (~exists x, ~P), so if \+ (call(S,X), \+ call(P)) is exists x:S, P < 1270929984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then forall is... < 1270929993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ \+ (call(S,X), \+ \+ call(P)) < 1270930016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I can prove that there exists an element of the empty set such that false but not that forall elements of the empty set... < 1270930026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should just use forall < 1270930063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, remember the alternative IP list needs to be explicitly enabled. Since it turned out to use more memory for "normal" programs < 1270930081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much more? < 1270930125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is due to larger constant basically. For large number of threads it is insignificant < 1270930140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1270930143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ (call(S,X), \+ call(P)) < 1270930143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much more? < 1270930144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is right < 1270930150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there is no example of S such that not-P" < 1270930155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it may hit 500 kB extra due to creating a pool to allocate from < 1270930159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something around that size < 1270930183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a small increase since it uses pointers. So 4 or 8 bytes extra per IP < 1270930188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on pointer size < 1270930191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- forall(empty, X, (X, \+ X)). < 1270930191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1270930192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't even measured the difference and you're making it a compile-time optional optimization? Sigh... < 1270930192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyhey, it works < 1270930209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have measured it. I just don't remember the values off the top of my head < 1270930224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, less than a megabyte... < 1270930240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would love to see AnMaster's perfect OS. Actually, no, I really wouldn't < 1270930241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems pointless to leave it an option < 1270930243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/./ < 1270930267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes. And on my pentium3 system (which is where I test 32-bit x86) it was measurably slower on "few threads" programs < 1270930286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well < 1270930288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used life.bf to test with < 1270930298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~20% slowdown < 1270930309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\+ \+ foo(X)) is exists X such that foo(X) < 1270930315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example, < 1270930318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists_true(X) :- bool(X), X. < 1270930319 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20% for one bigger memory allocation? Makes no sense < 1270930321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on my core 2 duo it wasn't measurably slower for life.bf < 1270930331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ \+ \+ \+ foo(X) = forall foo(X) then :-) < 1270930336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, correct, but I suspect cache effects < 1270930360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't work < 1270930365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh what I have works < 1270930370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since it wasn't measurable on a core 2 duo, some cache or branch prediction effect seems likely < 1270930378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're worried about old small-cache processors lump it in some kind of EMBEDDED_SETTINGS :-P < 1270930394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, my desktop is still a sempron < 1270930448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the systems I test on are: pentium 3 @ 996 MHz (x86), Sempron 3300+ @ 2 GHz (x86_64), Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz (x86_64) < 1270930496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cache sizes are: Sempron: 128 kB, Pentium 3: 256 kB, Core 2 Duo: 3072 kB < 1270930503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is according to /proc/cpuinfo < 1270930511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if the last one is per-core or not < 1270930524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one such line for each core, so it may be < 1270930570 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is < 1270930582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, since those are the ones I have available I'm not surprised if your results doesn't match mine. Especially not for the Pentium 3 box < 1270930595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does pentium 3 even do branch prediction? < 1270930661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original Pentium did branch prediction < 1270930682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience my pentium 3 box seems to gain a lot more from profile feedback compilation than the newer systems do. < 1270930706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's predictor is cruder < 1270930743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you had a Pentium 4 it'd probably gain even more, since they can take over a 100 cycles to recover from a misprediction :-P < 1270930761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, alas I don't have one any more. One day it's heat sink wasn't enough < 1270930770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was *charred* when I opened the case. < 1270930776 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270930982 0 :augur!~augur@wal-sas002.wireless-pennnet.upenn.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270931037 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQV8jUpjRm0 MINDRAPE TIME < 1270931144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway another good reason to make the new one an option is that it isn't as well tested yet. < 1270931213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway a test like {}{}{} possibly both with some data to copy and with no copy might be interesting. I assume ccbi2 will be fast with it? < 1270931253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also perhaps a {-rep-}-rep that is {{{{{{{ ... }}}}}}} < 1270931259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like y-rep-n I guess < 1270931349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, memory wise I know cfunge will use a lot on that, since with 32-bit cells the initial funge stack is 4 pages + a few bytes to keep track of stack top, stack array size and such < 1270931416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed wise it shouldn't do too bad. CCBI1 will probably do extremely badly, CCBI2 I have no idea. the interesting bit will be watching rcfunge[12] and language::befunge < 1270931488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whoa < 1270931492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: my differentiator integrates too < 1270931501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sort of... < 1270931507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(E, x, x*0+2*1). < 1270931508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = x*2 ; < 1270931508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270931508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(E, x, 2). < 1270931508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false. < 1270931509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is some more optimisation I could do on memory allocation if it would turn out to be required, but I haven't seen any such cases yet) < 1270931515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270931518 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270931526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect that to be rather unreliable :D < 1270931537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: naturally; it will only accept inputs in the exact form that it outputs < 1270931539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1270931547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, who was that to? < 1270931551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me < 1270931557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU WILL NEVER KNOW < 1270931562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1270931570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh alise I expect. < 1270931585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO ONE EXPECTS ALISE < 1270931596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270931612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, nice monty python reference. < 1270931626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIES < 1270931639 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270931662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- d(E, x, 1/x*x^ (1/x-1)*1+log(x)*x^ (1/x)* ((x*0-1*1)/x^2)). < 1270931663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = x^ (1/x). < 1270931664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST LIKE A MAGIC < 1270931706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why did you make the lines dashed in the memory graphs? the light blue cfunge-32 was hard enough to see against the light grey background as it was before. Now it is near impossible < 1270931724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rcfunge2 is even harder to see < 1270931730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wanted the graphs to be dashing, obviously < 1270931735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah < 1270931805 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270931807 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1270931908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because previously some lines were identical < 1270931921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270931927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, select more visible colours then? < 1270931937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not select the colours, gnuplot does < 1270931947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds - differentiation < 1270931970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(U+V, X, A+B) :- d(U,X,A), d(U,V,B). < 1270931970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, spot the bug < 1270931980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can't you give it a colour scheme by some command line option or something iirc? Also I think it selects for white bg, not gray bg < 1270931990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may cause the default to be suboptimial < 1270931992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK I can't < 1270932011 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it does, but it unfortunately also sets a transparent bg on the svgs, which I haven't looked into fixing < 1270932021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnuplot> help colornames < 1270932023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1270932026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : See `set palette`, `linestyle`. < 1270932046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, seems you can. < 1270932063 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set palette looks complicated. < 1270932094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so it does < 1270932138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on the other hand, gnuplots docs generally looks complex. Due to being quite verbose I guess. < 1270932169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds sin, cos, log differentiation... < 1270932307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes, with sane colours for that background (and probably ones that work reasonably for white too, you might want to view it directly, I do when firefox decides to make it small) non-solid lines is indeed better. < 1270932318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the current colours are piss poor. < 1270932352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For postscript I had a sed that replaced a yellow (yellow on white! completely invisible) in the .ps with an earlier-used colour (which was fine for dashed) < 1270932369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. < 1270932382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could do sed for svg too < 1270932384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have issues with other colours than the cyan? :-P < 1270932416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, the one for rcfunge2 is even worse than the one for cfunge-32, < 1270932462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, plots/horizontal-p.b98/10000000/line-memtime.svg show some rcfunge-like effects for ccbi2 it seems? Any idea why? < 1270932463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, that yellow. < 1270932476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no rcfunge1 is yellow < 1270932492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, stinkhorn is quite bad too < 1270932497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the colour I mean < 1270932506 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that yellow is the one I meant. < 1270932519 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO the rcfunge2 one is fine < 1270932527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah: cfunge-32, rcfunge2 and stinkhorn are near invisible. (well not rcfunge2 when it goes up/down/up/down) < 1270932546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see rcfunge2 very clearly :-P < 1270932546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this is on my desktop display < 1270932549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try my laptop < 1270932556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has worse colour reproduction < 1270932559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, monitors and eyes vary so meh < 1270932580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well depends on angle of viewing < 1270932590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my desktop monitor has pretty wide viewing angle < 1270932593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too, yes < 1270932596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much wider than my laptop < 1270932616 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All in all colours in SVGs should be selectable by the web browser just like they are for text :-P < 1270932631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lenovo didn't waste money on two things at least: the built in speakers and the screen < 1270932647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? < 1270932670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text in HTML* < 1270932673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh btw, that red of ccbi1 is of varying width on my laptop < 1270932677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike on my desktop < 1270932698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it is thinner when it goes horizontally than when it climbs < 1270932713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/913291.txt?key=lbuqu2b1boebwbep7707iq woot < 1270932718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fun toys. < 1270932720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, could be due to higher DPI in the laptop perhaps? < 1270932724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, toy, singular. < 1270932725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or older firefox < 1270932742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It looks such here. Don't know why, don't really care. < 1270932745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, look: foo no longer works. < 1270932748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care, though < 1270932756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1270932778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/913294.txt?key=mef5jrherk5iytbbn98kyg < 1270932791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, any idea about that rcfunge-ish allocation pattern for ccbi2 in plots/horizontal-p.b98/10000000/line-memtime.svg though? Something related to the gc? < 1270932798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume you use the gc in some parts still?) < 1270932907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw in the table below it indicates it ran more runs with ccbi2 than with cfunge? why? It doesn't seem to be "run as many times as possible until timeout" because it doesn't add up to the timeout < 1270932916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both cut off way below that < 1270932921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read the rankings page? < 1270932921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems unfair :/ < 1270932931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but I don't remember anything about that bit < 1270932936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read it again. < 1270933068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay my derivative works for a complex expression... well < 1270933071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a large margin of error < 1270933084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3015981 ~= 3.01298e+06 < 1270933089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not mentioned on the main rankings page(?) I'm talking about the "ran" column for individual problems sizes for a given problem- < 1270933093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/-$/./ < 1270933120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like the last table at http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/horizontal-p.b98.html < 1270933121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it's under "Measurements" on the Fungicide page < 1270933143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you said the *rankings* page just a few lines ago < 1270933150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not odd I couldn't find it then < 1270933162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, my mistake < 1270933211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the time was less than a minute, it is run once more. This result is discarded. (A sort of cache-cleaning thing between the memory and time measurements.) Then, ten time-measured runs are performed." < 1270933229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and? < 1270933232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, why only the disarcd-run for that. Why not for the larger sizes too? < 1270933239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it'd take forever < 1270933258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did that discarded run change the timing at all btw? < 1270933261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it takes 3 hours to run I'm not going to run it three times just to watch it timeout < 1270933263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timings* < 1270933283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a bit < 1270933291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember, may not've looked at it < 1270933348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have tested that before IMO. Seems silly to do it without any indication of that it is actually needed ;P < 1270933397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems sensible since there are likely some cache effects due to the memory-measuring process < 1270933401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, yn-rep and y-rep-n will be a bit faster too now than what is shown in the rankings < 1270933443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to it before finding out that some things take eons to run < 1270933452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1270933455 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270933461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then I dropped it for the longer times < 1270933473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there porn in the /topic, by the way? < 1270933486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1270933488 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would there ever not be? < 1270933501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well that would be ccbi1, rcfunge, language-befunge and pyfunge? < 1270933503 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, it just hasn't always been there < 1270933507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not the pron, no) < 1270933526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess stinkhorn for the y stuff too < 1270933529 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's either my fault or augur's fault :P < 1270933535 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's augur's < 1270933661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Re. the jittery memory allocation it could even be seeing something in the middle of a realloc < 1270933690 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, can't obviously say for sure what it's about < 1270933721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I use cut to stop my program erroring, that's bad isn't it :-) < 1270933736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur put the pornographic material in the topic in response to the fuck the police < 1270933783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1270933794 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was about to say that I knew that and then I made the connection < 1270933819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | fuck the police | (pics or it didn't happen) | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270933826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270933839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after all there are minors in here) < 1270933853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor innocent minors < 1270933870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/913294.txt?key=mef5jrherk5iytbbn98kyg < 1270933871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I saw that about moral police, I saw the irony in that before I did the topic change) < 1270933880 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1270933887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes, like ehird. Very innocent. < 1270933896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what was that? < 1270933905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accidental right click < 1270933910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks more like ehird's coding style to me < 1270933918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, *right* click? Not middle click? < 1270933931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what putty uses < 1270933943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you can change that in the putty settings < 1270933948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be the usual middle for paste < 1270933970 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, but it's my fault because I put "(pics or it didn't happen)" there :P < 1270933979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait what did you change? < 1270933980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270933987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I always found anything else confusing back when I used putty < 1270933990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how does it look like my coding style? < 1270933994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how you're meant to write prolog < 1270933996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have a middle button. in fact i don't even have a mouse here < 1270934013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what then do you have without three buttons? < 1270934028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't be a laptop, they have three buttons too nowdays don't they? < 1270934029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a trackpad < 1270934064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm, my thinkpad has three mouse buttons. Wait actually it has three buttons on the upper set (meant for use with the trackpoint) but two for the lower set (meant for use with the touchpad) < 1270934073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never noticed that before < 1270934074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270934076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :middle /mouse/ button < 1270934089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is because I hardly ever use the touchpoint < 1270934089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so how is it my coding style :)) < 1270934092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270934096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touchpad < 1270934103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an interesting mix up of the words < 1270934185 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270934189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'm going to unignore alise after yesterday. For a long time. This way the channel is a lot nicer. < 1270934199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i remember < 1270934212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of all those... "personal attacks" < 1270934216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus he doesn't seem to speak so much nowdays, so I don't seem to be getting the "missing half convo" bit < 1270934218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1270934229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't speak so much? Because I'm fucking imprisoned monday-to-friday? < 1270934235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You complete and utter asshole. < 1270934250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the obligatory condescending smiley face... < 1270934259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a fucktard. < 1270934275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, it looks like nothing hit the memory limit. Is that correct? < 1270934279 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You've only been ignored since yesterday, so it seems he's talking about today. < 1270934294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IIRC yes < 1270934320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "He doesn't seem to speak so much nowadays" -- that seems more like a general statement to me. < 1270934331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I wonder if with longer timeout, ccbi1 might have hit it. < 1270934344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe, but the half convo thing could only happen today. < 1270934347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I am particularly interested in discussing the broken reasoning of an idiotic asshole. < 1270934355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, you only get half-convo things if I'm actually there to talk. < 1270934356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course with longer timeout a lot of things could've hit it :-P < 1270934358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less me, less half-convos. < 1270934361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less issue with ignoring me. < 1270934364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is how I parsed it. < 1270934374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, only those who ended due to timeout obviously < 1270934392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did a lot of things do that? The graph on the main page shows them as non-completed doesn't it? < 1270934428 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270934462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270934489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was cfunge and ccbi2 the only ones to not time out on any tests? It looks from the graph like stinkhorn timed out on a few < 1270934502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not from the table below where it says it ran 74 < 1270934527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "maximum time" column, you know < 1270934529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which one is wrong, or alternatively: why are they different? < 1270934538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "ran" is described immediately above the table < 1270934541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is time ratio btw? < 1270934559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratio to minimum; I was hoping that was obvious < 1270934564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and why are there multiple time ratio columns? < 1270934575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping that was obvious too; one for total, one for max < 1270934582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it wasn't < 1270934591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps wider lines between to group them+ < 1270934594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1270934642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, shouldn't total time say timeout as well? < 1270934658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it just adds the timeout value < 1270934667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that they can still be compared < 1270934675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1270934718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from mycology results page: < 1270934725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Mycology terms, both 1.27 and 2.02.00 are unfortunately limited by their mistreatment of form feeds: as far as I can tell, they are considered to terminate the file in Befunge mode, when they should be ignored. (Perhaps they increment the z-coordinate even in Befunge?)" <-- iirc yes that was what happened < 1270934729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I checked it < 1270934736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember for sure < 1270934767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology check that the trefunge instructions reflect in befunge btw? < 1270934798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't think it does < 1270934821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe it should. It could lead to some amusing results with some interpreters I bet < 1270934840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, rcfunge just *might* do the right thing there. < 1270934856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it would, with the current limited set < 1270934865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1270934866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rc/Funge-98 would die due to the form feed first anyway < 1270934875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm pretty sure the others all handle it correctly < 1270934898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well you could test it before the form feed. Didn't you say you were using { and } to make the fingerprint tests position independent? < 1270934914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the fingerprint tests, but not everything < 1270934919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1270934934 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I could, but why bother? :-P < 1270934939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270934948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what other interpreters do trefunge as well? < 1270934970 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of decent ones or of all? :-P < 1270934981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of ones currently listed on mycology page < 1270934991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI and Rc/Funge-98 < 1270935009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I kind of miss the old wider-than-browser-even-when-maximised table < 1270935020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still there in the old results :-P < 1270935034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes there for nostalgia < 1270935046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rc 1 or 2? < 1270935049 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both < 1270935055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both what? < 1270935055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems mkry still has handed over the project. < 1270935061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he is dead after all :/ < 1270935065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh to alise? < 1270935070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whoops, there goes a half conversation! < 1270935072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tricky things those. < 1270935152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, when will you update the fungicide results for cfunge wrt. the fork test < 1270935172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you'll make a release, mayhap < 1270935182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "mayhap"? I need more definite than that < 1270935192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS IMPORTANT TO MY BUSINESS < 1270935201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toss me a few euros and I'll do it tomorrow morning < 1270935206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1270935213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but my business has no money < 1270935239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I might make a release tomorrow if I have some time left over then < 1270935259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume you will do it then at least during the next weekend < 1270935314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it shouldn't take long now. Some tests indicate it is slightly slower than stinkhorn at fork now. And yes a new funge space is the next major thing I will do. No idea when < 1270935327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and I bet efunge would get timeout from it. So pointless to test that even < 1270935882 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270936089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270936742 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270936966 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270938214 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270938320 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. And now I would need sound over network... :-/ < 1270938367 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have available speakers and volume is not enough for wireless headphones... :-/ < 1270938717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, eh? < 1270938725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and volume is not enough for wireless headphones"? < 1270938743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, as in, the music is so faint it can't be heard over bluetooth or what? ;P < 1270938780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, however, both pulseaudio and jack have network parts < 1270938785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also plain alsa < 1270938801 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The volume is so low (and mixer master / mixer PCM is at max) that playback isn't stable. < 1270938804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never tried that though, was going to use jack but never had time for it < 1270938813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that sounds weird < 1270938822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why would it not be stable over bluetooth < 1270938839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it shut down when there is no music or something? < 1270938853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then have a significant start up time? < 1270938855 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These headphones need certain minimum volume for stable playback. Yes, it shuts down otherwise. < 1270938869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, don't you have any wired headphones? < 1270938886 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess all wired headphones are broken... < 1270938914 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts up again very fast. What is nastier is that if it shuts down on weak signal, headphones will blast static at high volume. < 1270938915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Network http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Recording_audio_playing_on_the_computer#Using_the_ALSA_PCM_file http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Module-aloop < 1270938918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those links may help < 1270938938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one is only needed for some hardware < 1270938948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically those without a mixer capture option < 1270938952 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if signal is too weak, it won't start up again. < 1270938972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, stupid that it blasts static like that < 1270938976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't use them at al.l < 1270938979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all* < 1270938983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds dangerous < 1270938999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It starts up again very fast. What is nastier is that if it shuts down on weak signal, headphones will blast static at high volume. < 1270939001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that happened to me < 1270939006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i realised that they just sound like fuzz anyway < 1270939007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you could also increase the sound volume of course that you transmit with. What produces the sound? < 1270939008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stopped using them < 1270939077 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.113.230.70 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270939204 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boxx looks interesting http://web.archive.org/web/20080319024539/boxx.origincode.com/docs.php < 1270939342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, yay, light gray on white bg < 1270939345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1270939356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it is light gray on *lighter* gray < 1270939358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even worse < 1270939366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically unreadable page < 1270939401 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't you got a bookmarket to fix readability? < 1270939480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, no? I use firebug in those cases < 1270939487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not interested enough < 1270939492 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270939889 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Got somewhat stronger signal. Don't know if it is powerful enough. :-/ < 1270939908 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270940117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, stronger signal? < 1270940125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in kill -SIGUSR1? < 1270940140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1270940143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was music < 1270940150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION confused Ilari with impomatic < 1270940762 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270941055 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270941453 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270941559 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270941660 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270942753 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270942864 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270943020 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270944214 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270944289 0 :augur!~augur@128.91.24.67 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270944705 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270944867 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-255233.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270944995 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270945372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone OS 4.0: multitasking++ folders++ threaded mail++ book thing++ ultra-draconian restrictions basically outlawing writing your application in anything other than objective-c at any step(!) in the development process--------------------------------------------------------------------- < 1270945373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swing and a miss < 1270945385 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270945399 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, wait, wait < 1270945408 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270945410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't use, say, Haskell to generate Objective-C code? < 1270945451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct.\ < 1270945476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Objective-C, C, or C++. So. The crap languages. < 1270945487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: indeed < 1270945495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well good luck calling the objective-c iphone apis from c/c++ < 1270945500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without using the objc message send functions directly < 1270945516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may just throw away my iphone < 1270945517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: True. < 1270945572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this makes me really want an ipad, as much as I really know I don't want one: http://www.touchpress.com/ < 1270945613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an ebook, no, it's a fact explorer, no, it's a data sheet, no, it's a database with computation! < 1270945617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They also ban "Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited" < 1270945627 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would they KNOW? < 1270945629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must. make. myself. hate. < 1270945630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This bans... Cross-platform C libraries. < 1270945639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Do you want to try their patience? And because of the structure of the code. < 1270945643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not patience. < 1270945644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1270945659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You submit your code to them, and they sign the resulting binaries if it's to their liking. < 1270945692 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the POINT of forbidding even generated code, as long as the generated code is readable enough? < 1270945743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Lockin. < 1270945781 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That latter restriction about compatiblity layer sounds like pure lock-in anyway. < 1270945785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, you want to develop for the iPhone? Well fuck your efforts to develop for anything else." < 1270945790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hm? < 1270945792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you submit binaries... < 1270945795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1270945802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah. < 1270945811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll just do heuristics on the machine code, most likely < 1270945823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough I'm sure: unless it's a simple to-gcc compiler < 1270945829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that optimises heavily enough to erase runtime stuff < 1270945836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and detecting libraries will be easy < 1270945865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: They did this in response to Adobe making a Flash compiler targeting iPhone OS. < 1270945869 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is considering buying a T-Mobile G1 and putting an AT&T card in it, to avoid contracts < 1270945886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So people could make apps in Flash and stick it on the iPhone. < 1270945894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: They also ban "Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited" <-- who are they? < 1270945896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AT&T? Why would you want to be with that network? < 1270945907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: don't tell AnMaster, he's the one making a big deal about ignoring me < 1270945911 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because that's what we're currently using, and my dad doesn't feel like switching < 1270945912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Apple". < 1270945915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: bah < 1270945923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh for ipod? < 1270945925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270945927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol fail < 1270945927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iphone* < 1270945927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, you're a retard who doesn't pay attention to anything. < 1270945934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They /dislike people using their network connection, and blame them for their bad performance/. < 1270945938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no I have ehird on /ignore < 1270945940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it < 1270945945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is the name. < 1270945950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :respect it or stfu. < 1270945964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... The topic in question is fairly well-known by now. < 1270945974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't really care about apple products < 1270945982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not a chance in hell of convincing my dad to switch, though < 1270945990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's of the "It's good enough for now" opinion < 1270946012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, you cannot buy a T-Mobile G1 without a contract. Besides, you don't want a G1: they can only run old versions of the OS and are very slow. < 1270946027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to, get a Google Dev Phone: a G1 without contract. But it's much more expensive. < 1270946031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if I started talking about advanced flight aerodynamics and helicopter simulation, would you follow me then? Unless you share that special interest or work within the area, I doubt it < 1270946041 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1270946051 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd buy a Nexus One, but it's expensive without contract < 1270946053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing really, I'm not very much interested in apple < 1270946064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants "cheap without contract" < 1270946074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferably Android, not iPhone < 1270946075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And I want a pony. < 1270946083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go to Finland; their phones are mostly without-contract. < 1270946094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone, cheap? Ha! The non-contract 3G S is about $700 or so. < 1270946094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, do you need a smartphone? < 1270946105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I want one < 1270946108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course he needs a smartphone, otherwise he could just buy any old crud for $3.50 < 1270946113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270946141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, an IQ 100 phone isn't too expensive ;P < 1270946159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a "nokia 3120 classic", which isn't even symbian. < 1270946168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is S40 or such. Not sure < 1270946178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has java and flash though, no touch screen < 1270946183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for telling us about /your/ phones, AnMaster: we care. < 1270946199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, it is very relevant to the discussion as dumbphones are comparable in every way to smartphones and have a direct link as far as advice goes. < 1270946216 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a RAZR :/ < 1270946220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAZR? < 1270946231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh motorola < 1270946250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, clamshell, don't they easily break? < 1270946262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one has survived many falls < 1270946272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :razr that's oldschool < 1270946307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, no I mean in the hinge due to wear when opening it and such < 1270946320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, *shrug* < 1270946364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I had a clamshell model before. Some old Ericsson. It had problems in the hinge after some time < 1270946405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, ah yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ericsson_T28 < 1270946426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still had an antenna sticking out at the top < 1270946439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did they remove them btw? < 1270946489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- \+ (nat(N), \+ (N+N =:= 2*N)). ;; I wish this terminated < 1270946492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the Dev phone cost less than Nexus One? < 1270946520 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some clamshell Siemens phone (actually two of them). Both died in the same way (just suddenly didn't start / charge). < 1270946530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: contractless? dunno < 1270946537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on contract all phones will be cheaper than dev < 1270946537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It was probably best known as the first phone that used Lithium polymer batteries.[1]" huh? I never knew that < 1270946545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: note that the dev phone, not only is it expensive, but seriously the g1 is shit < 1270946553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only use an old version of the OS, and it is very slow < 1270946562 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1270946586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you SURE that the T-Mobile G1 can't be had without a contract for cheap? < 1270946611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Nexus One is available without a contract. < 1270946636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it's expensive < 1270946650 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, that's the nature of phones in the US. < 1270946683 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Topic closed by the moral police | fuck the police | (pics or it didn't happen) | (so it didn't happen then?) | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270946713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I am sure. < 1270946718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Difference between Droid and Droid Eris? < 1270946736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. The Droid apparently has some serious shittiness issues. < 1270946748 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1270946749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eris has been axed, it seems. < 1270946767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I don't recall what exactly but I remember some criticisms of the Droid as it basically being tatty and badly-made. < 1270946782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly I'd just splash out for the Nexus One, as it isn't on contract at all. < 1270946793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can buy it ready for AT&T. < 1270946816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well, it's the latest and greatest, so you won't be disappointed. < 1270946823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tough part is convincing my dad to pay $529 < 1270946828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's $529, which is an alright price for a brand-new unlocked phone. < 1270946830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, yeah. < 1270946836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A dip into the piggy bank might help... < 1270946838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yup, that's the nature of phones in the US. <-- import from EU? < 1270946857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: l o l < 1270946866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course shipping may be more < 1270946870 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my understanding is that if I buy Nexus One for AT&T, even though it's "unlocked", it will only work with AT&T < 1270946883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, how is that "unlocked" then? < 1270946891 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the reason contractless phones are not cheap is because they subsidize the phones if you buy them alongside contracts < 1270946912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a contractless phone < 1270946921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: network setups vary from provider to provider; it may not work with providers that do not have the infrastructur < 1270946923 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+e < 1270946969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, huh? isn't that standardised? < 1270946974 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, Sgeo: Although all American networks use the same GSM bands, they use different 3G bands, so the 3G still won't be compatible. < 1270946991 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the phone just supported all 3G bands, it would work on all networks. < 1270946997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, eh. what about those "dual band" phones and such? < 1270947030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Nexus One is tri-band over GSM and tri-band over 3G, but that's not sufficient to cover all the necessary bands. < 1270947030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1270947031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1270947045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have to be sinc-band :P < 1270947051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, "sinc"? < 1270947058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this huge urge to write a program to generate theorems. < 1270947067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five < 1270947073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270947092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, who needs 3G anyway ;P < 1270947108 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now that Sprint has _4G_! < 1270947123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does? < 1270947133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc there is 4G by Telia in some parts of Stockholm < 1270947135 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Claims to anyway *shrug* < 1270947146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First nationwide 4G network" < 1270947154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but what I was aiming at was GSM + EDGE < 1270947159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may be GPRS < 1270947162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works fine for me < 1270947173 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sprint is a totally different technology, not GSM or related. < 1270947178 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's CDMA (?) < 1270947180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like 640 kB. Enough for everyone. < 1270947198 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No one will ever need more than 640K of " < 1270947226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, basically, I have this when using my phone for data traffic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDGE < 1270947284 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that Sprint 4G is WiMax or something related (and that Telia 4G is LTE or something). < 1270947307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I have no idea < 1270947340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, google seems to indicate it is LTE < 1270947343 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is somewhat scared he might end up dropping the phone < 1270947377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* On December 14, 2009, the world's first publicly available LTE service was opened by TeliaSonera in the two Scandinavian capitals Stockholm and Oslo." < 1270947382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says Wikipedia < 1270947423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad has suggested the possibility of just getting an iPod Touch < 1270947442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270947466 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, current LTE is pre-4G (AFAIK, no official specs on final actual 4G yet). < 1270947479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking to someone on the bus, and he had a Nexus One. He complained about the keyboard. I tried it. The only thing that I disliked about it was that when I turned the phone to the side, there was a bit of a delay < 1270947493 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I prefered the keyboard in the turned-to-the-side mode than regular < 1270947604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the main language for Android dev.? Java? Can I develop in Haskell? < 1270947727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java. < 1270947730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. < 1270947745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do stuff in haskell then do the ui in java, with tweaking, and you can write whole programs in e.g. python with android scripting environment < 1270947756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ipod touch has no mobile internet < 1270947768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to wrangle prolog into spitting out algebraic identities < 1270947778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know, and that would really really suck < 1270947813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would < 1270947816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ipod touch is near-useless < 1270947841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently, it seems like the plan is to just get me Intenet access on my current phone < 1270947851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/phone/plan/ < 1270947858 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be needed anyway for the Nexus One < 1270947872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I need to convince my dad to spend $529 extra :/ < 1270947877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can chip in maybe $150 < 1270947996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What's the main language for Android dev.? Java? Can I develop in Haskell? <-- can't you do native nowdays iirc? < 1270948014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So I need to convince my dad to spend $529 extra :/ <-- wth? < 1270948023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, internet is expensive there < 1270948028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I want a Nexus One < 1270948050 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's def. going to give me Internet access one way or the other < 1270948059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, is that $529 per month on the plan? < 1270948063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what? < 1270948074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, $529 total for the Nexus One < 1270948077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270948078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1270948083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes a LOT more sense < 1270948292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to make prolog spit out algebraic identities just by making a bunch of rules id(A,B) < 1270948315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is that prolog tries to give me tons of examples for the variables in A and B where it fits as opposed to saying "yes, true for 'enm all" < 1270948316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*em < 1270948924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any kind of insurance in case my phone breaks or gets lost or stolen? < 1270949158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the police? no < 1270949173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my identity printer keeps printing A+-A=0 again and again and again :( < 1270949240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to make it print shallow (less than a certain number of nested applications), non-A=A, identities :( < 1270949344 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a terrible track record when it comes to phones < 1270949365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I can get my email address engraved on it, so < 1270950226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this stupid code not parsing... < 1270950496 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How vulnerable is the Nexus One to breaking, compared to the RAZR? < 1270950497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270950501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know. < 1270950518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's less "tough", probably, because it has heavy complex electronics, not just thin lightweight plastic. < 1270950526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on the other hand it will have a thicker coating. < 1270950545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just try not to drop it. I've dropped my iPhone a few times and it's been fine, but never from much of a distance and not really onto hard concrete. < 1270950551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're solid things, smartphones, generally. < 1270951369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would really like to write a computer algebra system in Prolog. < 1270951397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although really I'd need to add some sort of nested application syntax, so that I could write: < 1270951413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, things, without a bunch of sequential existentials < 1270951445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say g[x,f[x,y,z],z] = f(x,y,z,R), g(x,R,z,R2) or something. < 1270951454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where R2 is automatically the "result parameter" of a function if you do e.g. < 1270951465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[x] := foo[x,bar[x,x],x] < 1270951473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would translate to < 1270951496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(X, R) :- bar(X, X, R1), foo(X, R1, X, R). < 1270951502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I don't like the []s < 1270951663 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION offered to pay $300 from his own money < 1270951691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this would also generalise to variables: < 1270951714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x := f[x,y,z] => x(R) :- f(x,y,z,R). < 1270951729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although with side-effects it'd have to be more. < 1270952125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I run Marketplace applications in the Android emulator? < 1270952313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Look it up? < 1270952377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will just try it < 1270952794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how best to write the function [true,true,true,false,true,true,false,false,false,...] => [3,2] in Prolog < 1270952824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. unary "true"s form a number, then false is a list separator; two falses in a row end the list < 1270953928 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emulator took a while to start < 1270954121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want F: list nat -> Boolfuck < 1270954124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that < 1270954129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to fake multitouch < 1270954155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall n in xs, eval_with_some_appropriate_input_method (F xs) n = xs[n] < 1270954188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(use parallel processing with timeout; basically, generate tons of boolfuck programs until they generate the first length(xs) terms correctly for those inputs, then return it) < 1270954234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my phone actually starts ringing, I'll scream < 1270954246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ring ring < 1270954247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ring ring < 1270954347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to use the notifications thing like this < 1270954362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using the latest os version? < 1270954365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the one on nexus one < 1270954373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it only do the ugly old ui one < 1270954381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm considering buying a nexus one now < 1270954446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the latest OS version, but I think the Nexus One is a bit modified, and I'm not sure how to get it on here < 1270954452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it 2.1? < 1270954452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eclair? < 1270954454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so cool < 1270954456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't think you can < 1270954505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: btw the nexus one has some slight colour issues -- can't find a link right now -- but basically < 1270954528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some (pathological) greyscale images can produce dull colours due to the way the screen works (basically silly subpixel magic to boost resolution) < 1270954542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :side-effect is that text is less sharp than on the Droid, despite having a "higher" resolution (not if you compare by the same metric) < 1270954549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but somehow I doubt you'd notice it, were you not looking < 1270954555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in every other way the nexus one is better < 1270954575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: besides...the nexus one has a fucking 1ghz cpu < 1270954609 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think offering to pay $300 of it with my own money is helping convince my dad < 1270954626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wish it wasn't effectively locked into AT&T < 1270954634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will be able to crackunlock it :P < 1270954648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: btw if you are expecting the on-screen keyboard to be nice for long periods of time -- say ircing for more than 15 minutes -- < 1270954656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will (probably) be disappointed < 1270954667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I get fed up with the iPhone keyboard and it's better than Android's < 1270954673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have patience it should be fine though < 1270954681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what i'm saying is... you're not going to write emails on this thing < 1270954685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's better than typing with what the RAZR has < 1270954690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1270954701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you have a smartphone you want to do MOAR < 1270954711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually got to play a bit with a Nexus One < 1270954723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talked to someone who goes to my school while we were on the bus < 1270954778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... droid vs nexus one: droid's keyboard is a tiny tiny thing, don't like it; droid only has 2.0 for now (2.1 soon); droid only has 550 mhz vs 1ghz (!); apparently droid's actual making is a bit flimsy; droid has 256 megs of ram vs 512; text is noticably sharper on droid, doesn't have the colour issues the nexus one does < 1270954790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the droid screen is pretty amazing -- 265 dpi!) < 1270954807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically if you care about the screen a lot go droid, but if you care about having an actually nice phone go with the nexus one < 1270954808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Locked-into a contract is apparently not an option < 1270954812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides < 1270954814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only verizon has droid < 1270954821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... verizon suck donkey balls < 1270954831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than AT&T? < 1270954840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1270954845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verizon are the ultimate suck - and I'm not even in the us < 1270954850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they brand the phones with their name and such < 1270954857 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819] < 1270954857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the impression that Sprint is the best network < 1270954865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're CDMA like verizon, not GSM < 1270954869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so less phones support 'em < 1270954895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh the nexus one display is OLED, that's awesome < 1270954920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only other real option is iPod Touch < 1270954920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it, /anything/ that causes any sort of profit for OLED producers is a good thing < 1270954931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ipod touch isn't really an option if you want to actually do smart things with your phone < 1270954945 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not QUITE as bad as it sounds because there are a LOT of wifi hotspots near where I live < 1270954946 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still < 1270955032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like xkcd, xkcd has a droid and says the screen is the most orgasmic thing ever created < 1270955044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like xkcd you're retarded < 1270955064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long does it take an Android phone to power down? o.O < 1270955074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These issues aside, Im really happy with my Droid. The screen is incredible, its much faster and easier to use than the G1, and I wouldnt trade away the physical keyboard and persistent SSH for anything." < 1270955079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Who powers down a smartphone? < 1270955081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lock button. < 1270955095 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270955114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about temporarily preventing calls from being received? < 1270955128 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, how do I stop the emulator from shutting down? < 1270955146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stopping calls from being received is pressing hang up whenever someone tries to call. < 1270955154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or turning on aeroplane mode or analogous :P < 1270955164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION currently uses airplane mode < 1270955191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Android bug, be warned: "# Sometimes, when arranging home screen icons, you feel sad and youre not sure why." --xkcd < 1270955199 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270955213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Sometimes the GPS stops getting locks on satellites until the phone is rebooted. (This may be related to the GPSStatus app, installed to avoid this kind of thing.) To be fair, satellites are very small and far away, so you can hardly blame it for having trouble." < 1270955217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/02/08/android-bug-reports-songs-rovers/ --etc < 1270955245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Sometimes an Android user will think they hear someone say their name, but theyre not sure, so they say Yes?, but then it turns out it was something else." < 1270955249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Occasionally, when swiping the lock sideways to unlock the phone, the lock button images are rotated by 90 degrees. This is probably connected to your Jabber server somehow." < 1270955255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could go on; it's the funniest thing xkcd has written in years. < 1270955376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION clicks the emergency call button < 1270955398 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dials a non-emergency number < 1270955416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Call not sent, ******* is not an emergency number!" < 1270955454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is so glad that this thing can't make actual calls < 1270955466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if it could, I just accidentally prank-dialled 911 < 1270955491 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It thinks 999 is not an emergency number < 1270955538 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, after putting in the wrong pattern 5 times, it forces you to wait 30 seconds < 1270955591 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270955593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"911 " "...beep...beep..." "Uh, sorry, wrong number. " < 1270955599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant to dial 495398459911. < 1270955924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still can't see a way to access the Marketplace from the emulator < 1270955931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does have Internet access, though < 1270956272 0 :dslex!~dslex@2a01:e34:ee17:a440:224:2cff:fe6b:da89 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270956297 0 :dslex!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270956476 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270956497 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" The certificate is used only to establish trust relationships between applications, not for wholesale control over whether an application can be installed. The most significant ways that signatures impact security is by determining who can access signature-based permissions and who can share user IDs." < 1270956498 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270956545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.displaymate.com/Nexus_iPhone_ShootOut.htm < 1270956550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just the disply < 1270956563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the bad assessment of nexus one is based on the perspective of someone who really cares about displays < 1270956585 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would rather just get something not restrictively locked down < 1270956621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance: < 1270956626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(protip: nothing) < 1270956657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Buy the phone without service and insert your own SIM card. Includes a Nexus One phone case, wall charger, and USB cable. Free shipping in the continental US." < 1270956657 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android's locked down? < 1270956659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not locked down at all < 1270956666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: dude i'm talking about the nexus one < 1270956670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which runs... android < 1270956683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two versions of the device are currently offered. Both versions support four GSM radio frequencies (850/900/1800/1900), but the supported 3G/UMTS bands will differ depending on the version selected. When ordering, you'll be able to select either of the following devices: < 1270956684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * 3G coverage on networks that use the 850 MHz, 1900 MHz, and 2100 MHz frequency bands (recommended for use on AT&T in the US) < 1270956684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * 3G coverage on networks that use the 900 MHz, AWS, and 2100 MHz frequency bands (recommended for use on T-Mobile in the US) < 1270956684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all it is is < 1270956689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bands the two use are different < 1270956692 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, locked down in terms of installable software < 1270956702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the AT&T one will get better coverage with AT&T < 1270956706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll still WORK with t-mobile < 1270956709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not as well for hardware reasons < 1270956715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: howso < 1270956720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nexus one has marketplace < 1270956725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can install your own package files < 1270956785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Users are able to gain root privileges on the device by unlocking its bootloader using the fastboot command "fastboot oem unlock."[46] Unlocking the bootloader allows the user to install other firmware images that give the user root access. Obtaining root privileges enables a user to override protected operating system features, install arbitrary software, and enable internet tethering to share the phone's 3G network connection via a wireless LAN, among < 1270956787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other things.[47][48] Upon running the fastboot command, the user is presented with a Google-created screen stating that unlocking the bootloader will void the warranty.[49] The popular CyanogenMod build of Android has already been released for the device.[50] < 1270956797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can even get root on it in an official way < 1270956840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: so... < 1270956863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's why I'd really rather have Nexus One than iPhone < 1270956884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never once pushed iPhone < 1270956894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.displaymate.com/Motorola_Droid_ShootOut.htm ;; more dissing of nexus one display < 1270956896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never suggested that you did < 1270956903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just telling you that the Nexus One display isn't very good < 1270956913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you care about that sort of thing, like you want really crisp text... get the droid if you can < 1270956922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise get the nexus one as it's better in other ways < 1270956928 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contract == no deal < 1270956932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dad's rules, not mine < 1270956941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.displaymate.com/Nexus_Droid_ShootOut.htm ;; nexus vs droid < 1270956958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can get unlocked droid... < 1270956961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motorola milestone < 1270956969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd have to import it i think < 1270956972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from europe < 1270956998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much would that cost? < 1270957008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking it up now < 1270957012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently milestone is gsm, so it'd work on at&t < 1270957036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh apparently it's tuned for t mobile bands < 1270957068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah you'd have to import... < 1270957092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well it's $552 in the uk < 1270957100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so find somewhere that ships to US and add shipping cost... not pretty < 1270957101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for nexus < 1270957109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably use a shitty computer display and don't care < 1270957125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The keyboard is what makes me lean to Droid very slightly < 1270957138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't care so much about display < 1270957222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.displaymate.com/Motorola_Droid_ShootOut_files/image004.jpg droid < 1270957223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.displaymate.com/Motorola_Droid_ShootOut_files/image003.jpg nexus < 1270957228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course much smaller IRL) < 1270957236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are fine with that ... then it just comes down to keyboard < 1270957243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's only very slightly .. just get nexus < 1270957250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting milestone would be a bitch and it would be very experimental and unsupported < 1270957264 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The biggest problem really is cost < 1270957273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, nexus is pretty < 1270957274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :droid is ugly < 1270957281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well importing milestone would cost you top dollar < 1270957295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nexus is the cheapest you will get a contract free android phone < 1270957550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Maybe I can write the funge in ATS. < 1270957560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REDDIT SEZ IZ LIKE ML BUT WITH SPEEEEEEEED < 1270957572 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, just choose a language < 1270957584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :German < 1270957588 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even BASIC is a better choice than no choice. < 1270957768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. What's the lock button on Nexus One? In this emulator, it's the Hangup button, but Nexus One doesn't have a hangup button as far as I know < 1270957821 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pattern lock thingy decided to just ignore me < 1270957867 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power down button also works < 1270958110 0 :elmo77!~100235368@CPE0017ee09ce6d-CM001bd7a89c28.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270958218 0 :elmo77!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270958533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1270958571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I hate that indentation algorithm; can't I tweak it? < 1270958572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes, of course, but this manual will not tell you how.]] < 1270958573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm... fuck you too? < 1270958671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Docs for what? Some Prolog thing? < 1270958740 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1270958976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sml mode for emacs < 1270958986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm trying to formulate a signature for a fungespace module < 1270958988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far I have < 1270958993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : type fungespace < 1270958994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val blank : fungespace < 1270958994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val get : fungespace * coords -> int < 1270958994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val put : fungespace * coords * int -> unit < 1270959001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other operations do you think I'll find useful at first? < 1270959028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bounds-calculating method? < 1270959039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's two coords, right? Min and max. < 1270959135 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Alarm Clock just crashed < 1270959456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: BTW, do you think Judy Arrays would work well for fungespace? < 1270959623 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a Judy array? < 1270959680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://judy.sourceforge.net/ < 1270959701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 4:21; I have to go outside and do stuff tomorrow. < 1270959703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I bed myself? < 1270959763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I confused the fake accelerometer < 1270959776 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slaps alise for being awake < 1270959786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a norn < 1270959792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make masochistic norns i wonder < 1270959821 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ye.. actually, hm. Maybe have "pain" decrease for normally painful activities < 1270959824 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or would that not count < 1270959848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make an increase in pain correspond to an increase in pleasure, as opposed to any negative variables. < 1270959975 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pain, as a drive, is, in and of itself, a negative variable < 1270960007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although we could make high concentrations of the chemical equate to low input to the brain < 1270960037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... think < 1270960040 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, go to sleep < 1270960117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1270960120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1270960525 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270960569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270960688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270962133 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270965748 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270966266 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270966360 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :id_est < 1270966386 0 :id_est!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1270966439 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :id_est < 1270966524 0 :id_est!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1270968190 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270969129 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270969315 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270969858 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270970565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1270972326 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270972799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270972800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270973915 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431] < 1270973932 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270974068 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270979449 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270979957 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1270979963 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1270979963 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270980017 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270980017 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270980470 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270980911 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270981136 0 :ellisonch!~celliso2@adsl-76-199-7-1.dsl.chmpil.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270981168 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270981820 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270982148 0 :ellisonch!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello. can anyone point me towards a reMorse specification or set of programs? possibly even an interpreter? Particularly for the reMorse2.- variant. I've found the article on the esolang wiki, but the link to the spec is broken and there are no sample programs. < 1270982167 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1270982320 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270982564 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1270982823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270982871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellisonch, tried waybackmachine or such? < 1270982890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://members.tripod.com/rkusnery/remorse.html < 1270982897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something useful there? < 1270982921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20080403122701/http://members.tripod.com/rkusnery/remorse.html seems useful for example < 1270983054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added that link to the page on the wiki < 1270983113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellisonch, hope that helps < 1270983406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellisonch, finding an interpreter may be harder, unless there is one at http://esolangs.org/files/ < 1270983413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't seem to be the case < 1270983450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I doubt waybackmachine has that. Very often it doesn't even have the images of the page...) < 1270983994 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270989793 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270989998 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270991717 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270992918 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1270992918 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1270993425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, cfunge locks up on fungot < 1270993425 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what on earth did you figure out that < 1270993437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: top < 1270993437 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: dammit. what happens < 1270993458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Starts eating up all my memory and eventually has to be killed due to using some 7.5 gigabytes < 1270993459 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: pythonesque list? when length is wanted? somewhere in between, i will alter the style sheet < 1270993466 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know about that. < 1270993514 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270993526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Don't know enough about Judy arrays to be able to say. < 1270993543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: They're 256-tries. Basically. < 1270993557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an n-trie < 1270993557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For hashtables; though I'm sure you could tweak what number they are. < 1270993570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie? :P < 1270993572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://judy.sourceforge.net/doc/10minutes.htm < 1270993575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what a trie is < 1270993577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ I found this quite helpful < 1270993606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I gather it means the nodes are chars < 1270993612 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So evidently... yeah < 1270993635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently they're quite good at hash tables, and you can just initialise them to NULL, and also they're good for sparse stuff. < 1270993638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which gets me interested... < 1270993676 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say that being good for dense stuff is more important < 1270993689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1270993705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judy_hashing.pdf < 1270993706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to use Judy to create a scalable hash table with outstanding performance and automatic scaling, while avoiding the complexity of dynamic hashing. < 1270993707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://judy.sourceforge.net/examples/index.html < 1270993712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://judy.sourceforge.net/examples/Judy_hashing.pdf < 1270993779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel bothered to read that stuff through properly right now; if it looks good to you, give it a shot :-P < 1270993811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That .pdf is just two pages long. < 1270993818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the 10 minute intro is mostly fluff ;-) < 1270993882 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it looks like a decent hash table :-P < 1270993930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but Judy doesn't do hashing at all by itself. < 1270993940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'd use two nested Judy arrays, each with a one-wod key. < 1270993945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's optimised for that sort of thing. < 1270993952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, what's the expanded acronym of the thing you use, so I can look it up? < 1270993978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, just an array of boxes < 1270993994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's my own Funge-specific thing, so it doesn't have much of a name :-P < 1270994062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AABB or whatever? < 1270994073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axis-aligned bounding box < 1270994078 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. a box. < 1270994097 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used that because it sounds a bit fancier than "Box" :-P < 1270994157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1270994171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are all the boxes a fixed size or something, and you just allocate them around wherever changes? < 1270994180 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, dynamically sized < 1270994182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably read the code. < 1270994186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Decided how, roughly? < 1270994210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For easy cases like file loading it's the smallest box in which the file fits :-) < 1270994243 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is a poor solution for sparse files, which shows up in Fungicide as a loss to cfunge) < 1270994297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would that be a loss to cfunge, not you? < 1270994309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A loss of CCBI to cfunge < 1270994314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I didn't ask about the special cases ;-) Mind, I'm just curious: I'm unlikely to use your system because I'm an experimenter at heart. < 1270994315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. CCBI loses < 1270994317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ah. < 1270994349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All cases are more or less special < 1270994375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The default case, for a p into an unallocated location, is a 17*17 box centered there < 1270994799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/2 :: ((A,B,C)?, ((A,B)?, (A,C)?)?)? < 1270994800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s(X, lam [(Y, lam [(Z, R) :- Y(Z,R1), X(Z,R1,R)])]). < 1270994864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1270994899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1270994912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with adding higher-order predicates to Prolog is that it gets fucking ugly. < 1270994918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would be better: < 1270994919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/2 :: ((A,B,C)?, ((A,B)?, (A,C)?)?)? < 1270994919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s X \(Y, \(Z,R) :- Y(Z,R1), X(Z,R1,R)). < 1270994925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but requires currying to work, which it can't < 1270994928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because you can't return values) < 1270995072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rat(A/B) :- B \= 0, gcd(A,B,1). < 1270995080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog won't allow you to enumerate all rationals with this definition :(( < 1270995547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does INTERCAL have any multithreading kind of things? < 1270995605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's ais when you need him < 1270995937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270995948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lock-step and not multi-cpu, and it makes no fucking sense, but it has it, yes < 1270995973 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does it work < 1270996015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody has any clue. < 1270996025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the C-INTERCAL manual? < 1270996033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/vd89dqoq.htm < 1270996077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/tigcnnv0.htm#Multithreading-using-WHILE ;; addition using multithreading, fuck yeah < 1270996107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, nexting stacks are per-thread < 1270996113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I wanted to know :-) < 1270996131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What on earth are you doing? < 1270996140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing ICAL < 1270996194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Down with the cfunge machine! Fuck yeah! < 1270996201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Wait, isn't it IFFI? < 1270996210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one you're thinking of is < 1270996217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, do that one. < 1270996222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :-P < 1270996273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I hate you, and your family. < 1270996301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, you're just saying that < 1270996313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know your family, so I have no qualms with hating them. < 1270996333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find no docs for IFFI, FWIW. < 1270996345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's in either cfunge or C-INTERCAL source tree. < 1270996358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you know, the ther. < 1270996367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Hey, cfunge locks up on fungot <-- what? < 1270996367 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *sigh* i must be doing it < 1270996377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just that. < 1270996382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS < 1270996384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cfunge fungot-load-freenode.b98 < 1270996384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAW >>> :leguin.freenode.net NOTICE * :*** Looking up your hostname... <<< < 1270996384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^C < 1270996385 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: or no responses at all, but the outfile only has the parameters that led to the current sub. maybe fnord can just happen in the usa < 1270996398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, huh? Doesn't happen with ccbi? < 1270996402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1270996402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what broke recently then < 1270996419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I've started working on my MLfunge -- finally -- and then I realised that it doesn't have hash tables and I'll have to implement them myself. http://pastie.org/914048.txt?key=jjvwhv7j8jfnuzq32ppumw < 1270996420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woe is I. < 1270996436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably your hacks around being slow as fuck < 1270996443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why hash tables? :-) < 1270996449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wget http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 doesn't work < 1270996450 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the 1cfa paper, irc bot? < 1270996456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1270996457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :html < 1270996460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION opens in browser < 1270996463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob_plain/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1270996464 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i suppose if i coded it in java < 1270996470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: No, that really wouldn't help. < 1270996470 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: as long as you are. thanks, krystof.) a variety of things for cmpauxmd.o. i < 1270996484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Because I thought "oh, this will be dumb and simple". < 1270996502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I used Standard ML of New Jersey, I could use hash-tables; but MLton is a more conservative implementation. O'Caml has them, too. < 1270996503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, first line of cfunge -v pleaase < 1270996506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please* < 1270996507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You can use whatever trees they provide (surely they do provide?) < 1270996509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I know what options you used < 1270996513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Latest bzr, any options < 1270996519 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But currently: cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:64] < 1270996520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, any options? < 1270996522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1270996529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you use the new ip list or not? < 1270996532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, I tried all relevant permutations < 1270996533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both < 1270996536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270996538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Here's the types in the Basis Library of Standard ML: (strictly speaking, even this is optional!) http://mlton.org/BasisLibrary < 1270996546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both 32 and 64, both new IP list and not, both concurrent and not < 1270996552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I tried without exact bounds. < 1270996553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do provide a slight SML/NJ compatibility layer -- though not with this -- and the MLton structure, which has a hashing function: < 1270996556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mlton.org/MLtonStructure < 1270996561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Apart from that, nope. < 1270996572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Remember, SML was designed to have very precise formal semantics. < 1270996574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heh. Have fun. < 1270996577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding anything to the language makes this a harder task. < 1270996590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't remember because I didn't know. < 1270996593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the strategy is pretty much "provide the fast basic structures, let the user implement the rest". < 1270996599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very familiar with the MLs. < 1270996639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, that was the whole point: it originated as a tactic-writing language in a theorem prover. Later, it became generalised as a language to define languages in: and you want your code-specification of a language to be precise, so the SML standards do the hard part, i.e. providing a rigorous formal semantics. < 1270996655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it locks up deep inside libc here < 1270996665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the SOCK stuff < 1270996669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it also eat up tonnes of memory for you? < 1270996670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I haven't changed recently at all < 1270996681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Talking to me or AnMaster? < 1270996688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I could always use... Mythryl. :-) < 1270996689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: AnMaster. < 1270996692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270996706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just times out connecting < 1270996715 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I had to kill it because it made my machine swap at over 7 gigs < 1270996726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, can't reproduce yet < 1270996736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how does your fungot-load-freenode.b98 look? < 1270996736 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i selected ' trigger' for my cgi script running somewhere? < 1270996748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In fact, I don't even see a function to adjust the size of an array. < 1270996766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right; you need to put in the IP for leguin.freenode.net (or whatever works I guess) since orwell is down now < 1270996771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270996776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine they are expecting that it will usually cause a reallocation anyway. < 1270996790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh. < 1270996816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://www.standardml.org/Basis/array.html <-- the entirety of the array functions < 1270996831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1270996832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1270996886 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270996927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I wonder if I could use some sort of tree to partition up fungespace. < 1270996936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could. < 1270996940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say we have a 256x256 space; then there would be a tuple of 0-128 and 128-256. < 1270996954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inside the former, 0-64 and 64-128. < 1270996965 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look into quadtrees. :-) < 1270997006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Still, it sounds like it'd be quite inefficient. < 1270997015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it locks up but it doesn't grow very fast the ram usage at least < 1270997023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, less than a mb in several minutes < 1270997037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long did it take for you to fill up that ram? < 1270997050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About 10-20 seconds maybe < 1270997058 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be due to some other settings < 1270997100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think I know one way it could happen for you but not me: < 1270997101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) bt < 1270997101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0 0x000000000040e104 in stack_pop (stack=0x0) at /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:142 < 1270997115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spot the weirdness < 1270997124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stack=0x0 :-) < 1270997131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed. < 1270997142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pasteit.ghost1227.com/1340 may or may not help in causing it. < 1270997145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hmm, so it's not per-coordinate; you get NW/NE/SW/SE. < 1270997158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to implement this so I'm trying to get my head around it :-) < 1270997169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I want tuples, not arrays; nested tuples. < 1270997171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1270997171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I wonder why it locks up in the file output code btw < 1270997178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, why is it writing a file < 1270997188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type quadtree = Leaf of int | Branch of quadtree * quadtree * quadtree * quadtree < 1270997201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If I understand what you mean by per-coordinate, I think you might want k-d-trees < 1270997212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why didn't the assert trigger, it is compiled with asserts.. < 1270997213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't want per-coordinate, though; quadtrees sound absolutely fine. < 1270997217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're probably pretty fast, right? ... Right? < 1270997227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC stinkhorn uses octrees < 1270997239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's faster than cfunge, so yeah :-P < 1270997255 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270997259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Octrees? < 1270997264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would that help for 2D? < 1270997277 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno, maybe it's trefunge-generic < 1270997306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, Stinkhorn actually implements Trefunge; I'd forgot about that < 1270997315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it is writing to a filename called "" < 1270997326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which indicates something is indeed quite wrong < 1270997347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, no < 1270997350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: -3 doesn't do anything yet < 1270997356 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270997365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So I guess the Funge-Space is there at least in part but not everything is :-) < 1270997369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, octrees would actually help for 2d right? Less traversals. < 1270997389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Haskell, on the other hand, has a magnificently expressive type system. It has dependent types" wot < 1270997399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suppose, but how to split a 2D space like that? (I don't know, maybe it's easy and/or obvious) < 1270997416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes some drawings < 1270997456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there? What revision of cfunge is fungot currently running on? < 1270997456 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: " subject matter" is a perfectly good solution out there that was also my computer science class, but i < 1270997500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Eh, I can't draw it. < 1270997504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But basically, I'd make the regions cone-shaped. < 1270997529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And you think the sines and cosines involved in that are fast?-) < 1270997539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Touche. < 1270997544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadtree it is. < 1270997558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how to expose pattern-matching in SML, so let's just assume I can. < 1270997591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hmm, I really want a mutable quadtree; if I just have a functional one, then I have to update every parent to update a child. < 1270997594 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-155.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270997597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm sure Okasaki would have some magic trick to avoid this.) < 1270997710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unable to reproduce, lockup yes, memory trashing no < 1270997723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the stack thing didn't happen again weirdly enough < 1270997729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well start with the lockup < 1270997742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary revision search then < 1270997973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely enough it happens with older revisions too < 1270997983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at older fungot revisions < 1270997984 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. you should get " fnord that doesn't seem to < 1270998036 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot seems to suggest it's a stringmode bug < 1270998036 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i think ti's are pretty nice though. have fun. :) that has it's advantages < 1270998120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: My build system will be rather simple: MLton doesn't support incremental compilation :-) < 1270998138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1270998173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm trying to find last working revision of both fungot and cfunge but failing to do so < 1270998173 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stuff like new! miracle! space-age! are getting overused. why move if it's that camera we're talking about < 1270998188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe it never worked and it's still running on Rc/Funge-98 < 1270998190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And has not many special compiler options; all optimisations are aggressively done always. < 1270998192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what data files does it need to have created? < 1270998199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har. I ran it before I know < 1270998202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm pretty sure fizzie did switch it over to cfunge. < 1270998203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know; I just ran it from scratch < 1270998218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: With CCBI it connected and started ponging and such, with cfunge it hung. < 1270998316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it is bouncing between a ^ and a o. The o is not in the original source as far as I can tell < 1270998323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *could* of course have been written there. Hard to tell < 1270998350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I'm looking at the wrong fungot file in the editor < 1270998350 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: about odd and even streams are in general very cool.... :) is it possible for there not to be < 1270998384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no it isn't there in the one it is running either < 1270998423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Notice that the fungot.b98 is loaded at 0,100 < 1270998423 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's a recursive verb. ' void main() char x input; fnord main() tweak < 1270998430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh right... < 1270998522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1270998536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pratchett.freenode.ne < 1270998536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pratchett.freenode.ne < 1270998536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >31g :3g':-#^_ 1+ < 1270998536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >:3g:#v_ > < 1270998542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that is correct < 1270998546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from dumping funge space < 1270998604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI doesn't even end up in that code < 1270998608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1270998621 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't hit that ^, at least < 1270998623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess SOCK read/write buffer is wrong < 1270998637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1270999190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't SOCK code as far as I can tell < 1270999194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fungot itself < 1270999195 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ' fnord /a/b/ /a/b/ /a' layout would make better graph out of those pin boxes, you know < 1270999209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that keeps writing that line over and over < 1270999210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, MLton is truly dog slow. < 1270999258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out why though. < 1270999259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has to compile the entire standard library every time. < 1270999264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's whole-program. < 1270999309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: quadtree.sml 15.5. < 1270999310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Syntax error: replacing INCLUDE with EXCEPTION. < 1270999312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just do that! < 1270999339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1270999366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm unable to find last working revision of either cfunge or fungot. I need to ask fizzie when it gets here what revision fungot is currently running on < 1270999367 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or the continuum hypothesis is likely to get this. i assume diamondie has stolen some fnord plutonium from a brazilian nuclear facility.), sieni_. he < 1270999519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even very old versions show this behaviour now < 1270999606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, my best guess is that the new(ish) ircd-seven ircd that freenode switched to some time ago trigger some bug due to the extra lines sent at connect, and that fizzie fixed that locally but haven't pushed yet, or that it doesn't affect his specific setup < 1270999620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works in CCBI :-P < 1270999630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Could easily be a CCBI bug of course) < 1270999634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, we handle stuff like STRN somewhat differently < 1270999635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Wait, how do quadtrees grow in size? < 1270999643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, easy. < 1270999647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You make all the references null by default. < 1270999648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like on negative arguments and such < 1270999660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1270999685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure what exactly you're asking < 1270999688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it isn't SOCK that is copying those lines as far as I can tell from debugger, it is fungot itself that copies them for unknown reason < 1270999688 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ( i want shivers to release his new loop macros......) on time 1. then we can just make a copy < 1270999709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I'm just asking how a quadtree handles a potentially ""infinite"" (very big) structure < 1270999760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, it just keeps on subdividing... < 1270999767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1270999776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I just don't understand how I'm meant to traverse a quadtree given (x,y). < 1270999799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each node is associated with a point < 1270999806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get that. < 1270999810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You check where your (x,y) is wrt that point < 1270999818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't get how you do non-diagonals since it's NW/NE/SW/SE < 1270999818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's NW, you go to subtree 0 < 1270999827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I check where it is? < 1270999829 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just pick something < 1270999845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. if the y coordinates are equal it's always in the N < 1270999846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1270999857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check where what is? < 1270999864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even with your loading file I can't trigger the memory usage problem you mentioned < 1270999882 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug. < 1270999981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait, now I can. How strange. But much slower than you described... < 1270999992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I know why it does that now for you. It keeps executing e forever < 1270999996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes stack would grow < 1271000011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : type 'a subtree = 'a quadtree ref option < 1271000012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my machine is that much faster, so yes :-) < 1271000016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A subtree is a quadtree ref option. XD < 1271000021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that would be because of the different server name < 1271000023 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: About 300 megs a second IIRC < 1271000026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still keeps copying it all the time < 1271000037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So basically, < 1271000040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype 'a quadtree < 1271000041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of 'a < 1271000041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of 'a subtree * 'a subtree * 'a subtree * 'a subtree < 1271000048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a subtree is either NULL, or a pointer to another quadtree. < 1271000057 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Your Branch needs a point < 1271000063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't debug this without a known good revsion. And there are none. Yet fungot is running here. We will have to wait for fizzie to get here < 1271000064 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ack. don't put a subject there, it was such great fun that i just found it, thanks < 1271000066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1271000074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So does that mean that we can turn a leaf into a branch? < 1271000080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How will you know where you are otherwise? < 1271000085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, basically, a leaf is just a special case of a branch where all the references are NULL. < 1271000086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, I see. < 1271000098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have a deadline tomorrow for something at university, no time to look more into this issue now < 1271000098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, basically like so < 1271000108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(release won't happen today) < 1271000112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But I don't think there's any point in turning a leaf into a branch ever < 1271000115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could be wrong. < 1271000119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype 'a quadtree = Branch of coords * 'a * 'a subtree * 'a subtree * 'a subtree * 'a subtree < 1271000121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, okay. < 1271000129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how would you get to a leaf if the coords are both the same? < 1271000134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go a certain predefined direction? < 1271000136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1271000139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems saner to have it all in the one constructor. < 1271000145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you're at a branch and its (x1,y1) = your (x,y). < 1271000148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all it has is four subtrees. < 1271000154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we get the value at this point? < 1271000167 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271000170 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like said, just pick a consistent way of doing it < 1271000180 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. equal x = east and equal y = north < 1271000183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, pick two! < 1271000183 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in that case you'd go northeast < 1271000186 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever < 1271000189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay. < 1271000193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then northeast would be a leaf < 1271000198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be more clever solutions :-P < 1271000210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION includes coords in the quadtree and specialises it to machine words. < 1271000215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No point in lying about this code's generality. < 1271000302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh just one thing. it is STRN related probably < 1271000305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hmm, so if we move in a direction where the pointer is NULL, we should allocate a new quadtree and attach it to the current one. < 1271000310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is written there by STRN P < 1271000326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what I actually need is a quadtree option ref. < 1271000337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a pointer to either NONE or SOME quadtree. < 1271000413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/914126.txt?key=jbijawyvc0juty7ocqj8g I think this is it. < 1271000420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how on earth would I do exact bounds like this...? < 1271000659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Standard ML. < 1271000714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, what was that about fungot. < 1271000715 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is the fact that i'm trying to think of it < 1271000791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, basically fungot ends up overwriting itself with server name < 1271000791 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i guess linux does it for you than do it yourself. once you're happy with it, to see how you proceed and what that's about < 1271000799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in current cfunge and older cfunge. < 1271000808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm unable to find a known good revision < 1271000810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absurd < 1271000830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, thus I want the exact revision that fungot in here is running on < 1271000830 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if a fnord of a < 1271000841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that you push any local changes that fixes it < 1271000859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, exact revision of cfunge that is < 1271000859 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hehe yeah, was really killing the conversation). try the latter after the list of include files for interpreter.c?) implemented in scheme < 1271000914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmn. I have just the "cfunge" binary on the server it's running on; that reports "0.3.2" with -v. I'll try to find where I built it. < 1271000923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1271000924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that old < 1271000927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Basically the P at the line >:3g:#v_ >\ :0\3p 31g >3G 05g5+0\P v < 1271000937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ends up overwriting the entire program < 1271000941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the server name < 1271000944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have no idea why < 1271000964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. < 1271000967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have looked back until summer 2009 for a working revision < 1271000970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of cfunge < 1271001050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (I'm sure Okasaki would have some magic trick to avoid this.) < 1271001053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zippers < 1271001068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a directory with the name "cfunge_r462"; that might be the exact revision. < 1271001080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really haven't had the occasion to update. < 1271001083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay lets try it < 1271001105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i know about zippers but how would they apply here? i don't exactly understand them :P < 1271001109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1271001109 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1271001110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think it worked on later revisions too for a long time, possibly until freenode changed to the new ircd < 1271001145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r462 works < 1271001148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now lets bisect this < 1271001160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you keep your structure as your current cell with a pointer to the parent, where the parent does _not_ contain a backlink < 1271001181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i see. do you think it would help for this case? < 1271001182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That irc-message splitting part of the fungot code is probably about the oldest thing there, I really haven't touched it in a while. < 1271001183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: after a very small amount of writing to memory overflow!!! < 1271001206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well you don't need to change the parent to change the current cell < 1271001218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what about mutating the parent? < 1271001220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the subtree < 1271001221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1271001240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you now need to restructure things to move to a new current cell < 1271001252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My quadtrees are either a leaf containing a pointer to a word, or a branch containing an (x,y) pair of coordinates, and four pointers to NONE | SOME quadtree. < 1271001276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the zipper requires a new datatype for quadtrees with holes, essentially < 1271001278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I could actually make leaves not be pointers and just mutate their parents to do it. < 1271001283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds icky though. < 1271001331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can do mutually recursive data types in SML... < 1271001335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: explain? :D < 1271001339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where the hole can be one of the four directions i think) < 1271001348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: isn't that type rec or something < 1271001357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271001358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of word < 1271001358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * subtree * subtree * subtree * subtree < 1271001358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and subtree = quadtree option ref < 1271001362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursive types work fine; mutually, however... < 1271001365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("and" is not valid there) < 1271001380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? sounds unreasonable. < 1271001401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay bisection shows it is between 551 and 581 now < 1271001409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The P on that particular line is supposed to be hit only when processing a ":"-starting command option (something like the :msg part in :servername PRIVMSG #foo :msg), and it should put the text "msg" on line.. 7, in that case. < 1271001436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i'm sure there must be a way to do it < 1271001451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i'm having to repeat my transparent data types in the module and in the structure < 1271001452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irritating < 1271001529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah it is because and implies a data type there not an alias < 1271001541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm i think ocaml used and there < 1271001558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hrm, I guess the same P is in fact used to put non-:-starting command options there too.) < 1271001591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know SML < 1271001594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just type out quadtree-option-ref if it weren't so darned verbose. < 1271001597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nor do I < 1271001627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm r578 < 1271001630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the diff in it < 1271001650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Make stringbuffer_finish() optionally return string length. Make use of this feature in FILE, PERL, STRN and TURT." < 1271001653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1271001661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ba-bam, an optimization breaks the day < 1271001666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no code cleanup < 1271001670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn < 1271001672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1271001681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because the old was quite a mess of buggy strlen() and such < 1271001688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least it worked! < 1271001692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just make things abstract except I want pattern-matching on trees. < 1271001693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so since the thing already *had* the string length I just made use of it < 1271001700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure, but that is what bisection is for :P < 1271001782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you use any of these from STRN: G S < 1271001788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, which ones < 1271001816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you think of your datastructure as a tree graph, a zipper is mostly just rerooting the tree at a new node < 1271001835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so in your completely professional opinion do you think it'd beat pointers? < 1271001842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, apparently, Droid's getting 2.1 < 1271001852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: can you do verizon? < 1271001857 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1271001869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: for speed? heck no. < 1271001875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: righty ho then < 1271001878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i also meant for elegance < 1271001881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: then ignore it < 1271001896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1271001912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: compared to the razr I doubt you will be anything less than outstanded by the Nexus One: it is one of the best phones around in every way apart from the display. < 1271001924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dammit, it's pretty. < 1271001928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want one. < 1271001941 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a general rule, _all_ my value judgements can be assumed fake, when i'm even willing to give them) < 1271001950 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'll probably stop being outstanded the instant I accidentally drop it on the ground :/ < 1271001950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has a freaking 1ghz processor < 1271001953 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or lose it somewhere < 1271001957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm since you use FILE too I guess it could be causing issues < 1271001960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: they're tough beasts < 1271001969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not made out of random bendable plastic you know < 1271001970 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tougher than the RAZR? < 1271001974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only issue with dropping them is height < 1271001977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably I use at least STRN's G. < 1271001981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not much height, then the thickness protects it < 1271001985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if much height the weight works against it < 1271001991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're very tall, or very VERY clumsy < 1271001993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be fine < 1271002002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well with all the extra data types it's not really that elegant if you don't insist on purity... < 1271002012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure if I use S for anything much, except perhaps in the ^save stuff. < 1271002030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://www.engadget.com/photos/google-nexus-one-unboxing-and-hands-on/#2573676 <-- porn < 1271002032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so S is used? I'm trying to figure out what exact change broke this you see < 1271002054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This is why you should've committed that as five separate changesets ;-) < 1271002072 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't you have some sort of tracing thing that could show you which fingerprint commands were invoked during the run? < 1271002086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.engadget.com/photos/google-nexus-one-unboxing-and-hands-on/#2573691 http://www.engadget.com/photos/google-nexus-one-unboxing-and-hands-on/#2573676 http://www.engadget.com/photos/google-nexus-one-unboxing-and-hands-on/#2573655 < 1271002090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you know yo uwant one :P < 1271002090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it is the G code < 1271002091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you want < 1271002103 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, did I mentioned I got to play with a Nexus One a bit on Thursday? < 1271002104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: also if you do a lot of non-local changing (like with get/put), then zippers probably get awful < 1271002107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you mean one for STRN G one for STRN S and so on? < 1271002110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yes. < 1271002122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: true. < 1271002124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was thinking one per fingerprint < 1271002124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I can actually manually revert the lines changed < 1271002128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: with a quadtree you only store the root right? < 1271002131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and traverse each time < 1271002134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems to be STRN G that is causing issues < 1271002135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you move with the IP? < 1271002150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You can't move up a quadtree, so you don't have much choice < 1271002159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/01/nexus_shot_main.jpg nexus one has a nice camera < 1271002159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds a assert(strlen(s) == len); < 1271002161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: right < 1271002172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds the header for assert too < 1271002205 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. When it's locked with a pattern, there's an Emergency Call button. How likely is it that it will accidentally be pressed -- does the touchscreen respond to non-skin? < 1271002214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay length 11 vs. length 10 < 1271002216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how weird < 1271002239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains the nick of the thing. < 1271002250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange then ccbi didn't pick it up < 1271002253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's nothing preventing you from keeping a zipper even if the leafs are mutable, might make moving IP faster < 1271002261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271002263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ccbi < 1271002265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean mycology < 1271002275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extra char seems to be a null one < 1271002277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or equivalently, a stack of subtrees up to the top) < 1271002284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do the Mycology UNDEFs change between those two revs? < 1271002291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, let me test < 1271002299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when it's mutable you don't need those holes i should think) < 1271002326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually I can't easily, since this revision is so old it will hit END in current mycology nowdays < 1271002330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1271002349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just replace the first column of Mycology with v until the STRN test < 1271002357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good idea < 1271002362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can't, you can't move up in a quadtree < 1271002363 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone takes "A peek inside the neural network" seriously < 1271002376 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*inside < 1271002391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it hits the assert just before the line: GOOD: G works < 1271002393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well you could also _make_ parent links < 1271002396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the new one < 1271002400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well < 1271002404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries with the strlen() call < 1271002422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no UNDEF there no < 1271002437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what I believe will happen is that there will be an extra \0 byte in the newer version < 1271002439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :below < 1271002444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, perhaps you don't check for that :P < 1271002460 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently not < 1271002470 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to get his engraved with his email address < 1271002475 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case I do end up losing it < 1271002490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually I'm not sure that is what it will result in. That statement is based on logical reasoning about the code. I haven't dumped the stack < 1271002524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that'd result in anything extra is probably not checked < 1271002528 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad think it's possible for someone to work around the pattern lock. alise, unless you suggest otherwise, I'm under the impression that it's difficult [requring gaining root access], but possible < 1271002530 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271002543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might check one cell backwards and forwards but probably not more < 1271002549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh wait a second. Is strlen() number of chars *excluding* the ending \0? < 1271002552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And not necessarily even that much if I was too slow) < 1271002557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, of course. :-P < 1271002567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm I think that may be the issue < 1271002579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the length of the string: the length of "foo" is 3, not 4. < 1271002582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to check that though so I don't introduce new bugs < 1271002606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Pattern locking is just for your convenience, I think. < 1271002610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It should be not so hard to crack anyway. < 1271002618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It's not difficult. < 1271002632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You hold down the trackball when booting to enter the bootloader, enter a line, say "yes I'm okay with no warranty", and it's done. < 1271002653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So wait, you know how the directions represent different combinations of same/different X/Y? < 1271002654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder where to fix it. And since this value is used in lots of places calling that code, what will break and what hides other bugs < 1271002656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: btw you might look at the infinite tree with mutable leafs i made for implementing Malbolge Unshackled >:) < 1271002656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271002664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: When you move in different-direction, the coords always increase, right? < 1271002665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Say what now? < 1271002673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hey, it's not my fault you said that. < 1271002680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that sounds nice -- link? < 1271002683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've no idea what you're saying, I think < 1271002687 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does it keep track of its waranty status? I wonder if it's possible to overwrite it >:) < 1271002694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have no idea how you use quadtrees < 1271002699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That is called breaking the law. < 1271002707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am sure that Google could find out, if you gave them the phone... < 1271002727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I jailbroke my iPhone on its first day. < 1271002733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chillax, warranties don't matter. < 1271002761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay wth < 1271002762 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What part of using quadtrees are you thinking about now < 1271002766 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad thinks that since it's "new", it would be a bad idea to get it, because of potential problems < 1271002767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixing it broke mycology < 1271002767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just don't understand how four directions map to coordinates of 2D space. < 1271002790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Currently, I'm writing a function coords * direction -> coords; you feed it the coordinates of the current branch you're on, and the direction you're expanding the quadtree in. < 1271002793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives you the coordinates the new tree should have. < 1271002798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure how it should do this. < 1271002820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: My dad says. My dad says. My dad says. If he's just looking for excuses not to get it you'll either have to buy it yourself or not get it. < 1271002836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell him that there are regular updates to the entire phone software. < 1271002839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think that's implementation-dependant i.e. you can do what you like < 1271002840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that'll "fool" him. < 1271002850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: One easy(?) way of doing it would be start out with the central node at (0,0) < 1271002857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. root node < 1271002869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So then south = decrease x, north = increase x, west = decrease x, east = increase x? < 1271002870 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardware is probably what he's mostly concerned about. I did tell him that the software's been around for a while < 1271002871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then the space you're working in is nicely bounded on all sides < 1271002873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/Unshackled.hs < 1271002880 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although this uses the newest version of it < 1271002885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What about when the coordinates of the branch you're on match the ones you are trying to look up? What direction then? < 1271002889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the others are taken. < 1271002898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Well... no answer then. < 1271002904 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: For example, yes; but you can't just increase by one (or you can, but the new tree will have all but one branch overlapping with the previous (I think?)) < 1271002909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is it fast-in-theory? < 1271002921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And this is where I totally stop understanding what you're trying to say. :-) < 1271002941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Quadtrees are about splitting the space into four parts whenever you need increased granularity < 1271002942 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there are PDF readers for Android, right? I think I saw one or two < 1271002950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So you start with zero points and a root at (0,0) < 1271002952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Presumably. The browser can probably handle it. < 1271002958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone certainly has always been able to. < 1271002967 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Then you add a point (1,1) so you make the SE node a leaf with that value < 1271002977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So S = increase X, E = increase Y. < 1271002981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Up to you. < 1271002983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What about the VALUE at this point? < 1271002988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271002988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of word ref < 1271002989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * subtree * subtree * subtree * subtree < 1271002993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word? < 1271002993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're looking up (1,1), which has already been inserted. < 1271002997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We move southeast, and get to (1,1). < 1271003000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are only four subtrees. < 1271003002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a Leaf. < 1271003004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each of them /changes/ the coordinates. < 1271003007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What? < 1271003008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't know, although it _does_ keep a next pointer for easy incrementing < 1271003013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: At this point, it's a Leaf. < 1271003015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What about when I want to move to (1,2). < 1271003021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was getting to that. < 1271003022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You said I'd never have to change a leaf into a branch. < 1271003038 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe I was wrong: hang on, let me work through this. < 1271003051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i mostly linked to it because it's evil ;) < 1271003057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fair enough then < 1271003059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So you're inserting (1,2) and all you have is a branch with three empty subtrees and one leaf at (1,1) < 1271003065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I found it < 1271003069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And a dog. < 1271003073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What you need to do is subdivide the SE area into four parts < 1271003086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right. But if I do that, then where goes the value at (1,1)? < 1271003088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The SE area at this point is (0,0) through (2^32-1, 2^32-1) < 1271003088 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still displays the Emergency Call button, even when there's no SIM card < 1271003094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (Assuming 32 bit words) < 1271003101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All four parts in the SE area are already taken up by subtrees. < 1271003105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the value at (1,1) has nowhere to go. < 1271003109 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, can it actually use the nearest carrier it can find for emergency calls? < 1271003124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So you make a new tree, with root at the midpoint, (2^31, 2^31) < 1271003131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (± 1) < 1271003138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: *Now* I am confused. < 1271003178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You replace the SE branch of your (0,0) with that tree < 1271003190 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But you're still screwed, because (1,1) and (1,2) are both in the NW node of (2^31, 2^31) < 1271003194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So you continue subdividing < 1271003204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at this point I should find a nice article. With pictures. < 1271003204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Until you get to a point where they go into different nodes < 1271003223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Doesn't that end up creating an unholy amount of subdivisions? < 1271003227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There are lots of java applets and the like for this :-) < 1271003238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Max depth O(log n) < 1271003244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not unholy, no. < 1271003274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you have one word per leaf, you will end up using a lot of space, though; the standard recommendation is to switch to an array at some point, I think < 1271003282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadtrees seem like such a functional data structure; shame they need to be imperative to work nicely. < 1271003294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Bleh! < 1271003304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they? < 1271003307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This just keeps getting hairier at hairier. < 1271003313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, they have nice diagrams. < 1271003315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and < 1271003322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how big the arrays should be; 80*24/ < 1271003323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1271003331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But do they need to be imperative? The arrays don't have to be. :-P < 1271003345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, if you update a node you have to update the branch it's in, and the branch that's in, and so on. < 1271003350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I should when I have time review the code to see what happens if you get a literal zero byte into the buffer. I suspect it may miscount then < 1271003354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: True enough < 1271003362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You probably want square arrays since each node is square, btw. < 1271003374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I don't think it is possible for that to happen in most places. Certainly not in the two places it is used in STRN < 1271003377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, basically, these algorithms are going to be hellishly ugly. < 1271003393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Data structures tend to be a bit hairy. < 1271003410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushing fix for the STRN case at least < 1271003431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Not their pure forms. < 1271003443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I really need to do is hire Okasaki and make him write this for me. < 1271003513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, their pure forms tend to also be. :-P < 1271003521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're hairy. < 1271003533 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't want his Gmail Contacts in his phone < 1271003548 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, until I have a chance to clear out my contact list < 1271003572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I just plain like the "you can't comb a hairy ball smooth" phrase. < 1271003617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Tough shit, Android is all Google, all the time. :-) < 1271003650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Awesome, thanks. < 1271003651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually the real issue was that the code was returning actual string length. Not length to first zero byte in case you managed to manually get a zero byte into it. < 1271003685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, probably all code using it should be reviewed, in most cases, like reading data from a file, treating \0 as nothing special is actually the correct behaviour < 1271003694 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why do you want to run fungot, anyway? < 1271003694 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: especially if you want to make heavy use of it, haven't eaten anything else either. :)): we create hierarchies all the time < 1271003695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this code is used in the fgets thingy for FILE too) < 1271003701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, I understand all of it apart from the recursive subdivision. < 1271003701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and a few other places) < 1271003787 0 :fungotCCBI!~fungot@cs78149022.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271003795 0 :fungotCFUN!~fungot@cs78149022.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271003801 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Benchmark time! < 1271003819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, until I get a new fungespace in place I wouldn't be surprised if ccbi is faster < 1271003828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that won't happen soon < 1271003844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Maybe you can think up of some bf/ul slowness < 1271003866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[.] < 1271003866 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf +[.] < 1271003877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what prefix does it use Deewiant ? < 1271003883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1271003885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]bf +[.] < 1271003885 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003885 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003892 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, erm < 1271003899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well from here fungotCFUN was just slightly faster at that < 1271003900 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok i get it well enough to predict what the most common one < 1271003900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1271003911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]bf +[>+] < 1271003914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that takes no time at all is pointless < 1271003917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]bf +[.] < 1271003917 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003917 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003929 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Please stop with that one. < 1271003936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1271003946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that is annoying. < 1271003946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does your client try to treat it as CTCP ? < 1271003947 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It gives me four lines of "requested unknown CTCP" every time. < 1271003953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine doesn't < 1271003960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not mine. < 1271003960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]bf ++[.] < 1271003960 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003960 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1271003960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit noisy anyhow. < 1271003962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1271003963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1271003963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It displays a lot of boxes. < 1271003965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is better < 1271003966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1271003980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice the cfunge one is consistently faster < 1271003989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice they are consistently of identical speed < 1271004008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I notice that consistently CFUN one returns just a tiny fraction of time before the CCBI one < 1271004017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ignore such fractions. :-P < 1271004028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could just test an infiniloop, the timeout cutoff counts executed bf cycles. < 1271004030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it takes no time it's not a benchmark. < 1271004032 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]bf +[] < 1271004034 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004034 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many cycles is the cutoff? < 1271004058 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That got a different second in my timestamps, but it didn't take very long either. < 1271004064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (foo)S < 1271004064 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1271004065 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1271004072 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This phone is going to be in place of getting a new computer < 1271004078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the awfully slow underload proggie, but I've forgotten it. < 1271004081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a slow ul one might be better < 1271004091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably kill my bittorrent uploads to limit network lag < 1271004101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ^bf stops after executing aaaaaa***** bytecode ops. < 1271004104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]help < 1271004110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]commands < 1271004115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]show < 1271004116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271004119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the command < 1271004121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to list all < 1271004122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show < 1271004122 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble < 1271004124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271004129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably no commands defined. < 1271004130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe those doesn't have any < 1271004139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show fib < 1271004139 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] < 1271004143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1271004143 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1271004146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you start with an empty state file, there aren't any. But none of those is very slow. < 1271004158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]def fib bf >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][] < 1271004158 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defined. < 1271004158 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defined. < 1271004168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1271004168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, does it handle the compressed one there? < 1271004170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]fib < 1271004170 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   . . .  . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . . ... < 1271004170 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   . . .  . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . . ... < 1271004172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271004177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1271004179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^fib < 1271004179 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... < 1271004179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/mathscripts.html ;; once upon a time, there was a element in HTML that actually rendered summation signs and stuff < 1271004182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not < 1271004194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write < 1271004195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not my fault it can't read it's own output < 1271004206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∑_k = 1_^n^ k < 1271004212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sum k=1 to n, k < 1271004221 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, did any browsers actually support it? < 1271004225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(~~)(:^)^ < 1271004226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw why that [] at the end of the fib program? < 1271004228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: who knows < 1271004230 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should take a while. < 1271004230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awesome < 1271004236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish it worked < 1271004238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't it time out quickly? < 1271004251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example - the integral from a to b of f(x) over 1+x < 1271004252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ∫_a_^b^{f(x)1+x} dx < 1271004252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be rendered on a fixed pitch text-only medium as: < 1271004252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : b < 1271004252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / f(x) < 1271004252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | ------- dx < 1271004254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / 1 + x < 1271004256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a < 1271004259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The example uses { and } as shortrefs for and respectively. This is used for invisible brackets, stretchy delimiters and integral signs, and placing one thing over another. The shortref characters "_" and "^" are used for subscripts and superscripts respectively. < 1271004262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is hot < 1271004263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No CPU usage, at least. < 1271004266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because the Underload interp also counts executed instructions, and the instructions get slower when there's a long string. < 1271004279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Whoops, I forgot a : there, I think. :p < 1271004295 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's still a bit fast; I'll refine it a bit, just a moment. < 1271004304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(~~)(:^)^(end)S < 1271004304 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1271004306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1271004327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(~~)(:^):^ < 1271004328 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004328 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(~~)(:^):^ < 1271004342 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still pretty fast. < 1271004353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1271004361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Deewiant has a monster computer iirc < 1271004368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some 7 or 8 GB RAM iirc < 1271004369 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally it should take >10s on your fungot :-) < 1271004370 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i'd rather my scotch straight up. no scheme system still actively maintained ( although a bit different < 1271004372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't make the string longer without running out of stack; but it'd probably be better to have two long strings to swap instead of just one. < 1271004381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to cook up something that does that. < 1271004414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * Irene Gargantini: An Effective Way to Represent Quadtrees. Commun. ACM 25(12): 905-910(1982) < 1271004418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone have an acm account? oerjan? < 1271004436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is egobot? and hackego? < 1271004446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was once an HTML 3.0 draft, with a section titled HTML Math, suggesting relatively simple markup for some basic mathematics. But its all history; the draft expired in 1995. (There was also an earlier idea about HTML+, which would have had a different, more natural-looking math syntax.) < 1271004448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was never official < 1271004455 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geh, it's still a bit too fast. < 1271004459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(a~a*~~^)(:^):^ < 1271004459 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004459 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271004465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh different seconds here < 1271004480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If you want, you could increase the limits. < 1271004488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereabouts? < 1271004490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, if they were the same speed, then shouldn't the cfunge be after the ccbi one just *sometimes* < 1271004498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which hasn't been the case so far < 1271004506 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It was once. < 1271004520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes ]ul (foo)S < 1271004523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (foo)S < 1271004524 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1271004524 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1271004524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271004526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271004528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1271004528 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: For the underload one, it's on line 310, I believe; the ffaa***81p there. < 1271004534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you are faster at that one program < 1271004535 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271004536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (foo)S < 1271004536 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1271004536 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271004546 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's even lots of whitespace above it, shouldn't be a problem to fit in a longer number. < 1271004577 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's what, 255^2 * 100 = 6502500 < 1271004583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no < 1271004584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :255 * 100 < 1271004593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15*15 isn't 255. < 1271004596 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271004606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blarg, I always think ff* is < 1271004614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is a bit misleading. < 1271004621 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, let's try 500k < 1271004632 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' '}:** < 1271004673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: For the ^bf one it's the aaaaaa***** on line 294, if you want to change that too. < 1271004682 0 :fungotCCBI!~fungot@cs78149022.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271004684 0 :fungotCFUN!~fungot@cs78149022.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271004687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I believe you will run into your funge space box being suboptimal if I remember where fungot put it's stack correctly < 1271004687 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dont be silly. < 1271004694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(a~a*~~^)(:^):^ < 1271004696 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He said it, not me < 1271004697 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004699 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1271004702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome! < 1271004706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now cfunge was faster :P < 1271004715 0 :fungotCFUN!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271004715 0 :fungotCCBI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271004723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, that's what I wanted to know :-) < 1271004741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes I do believe it extended out into -x just above the program code < 1271004756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you are just growing the full sized box for the entire program in your AABB thingy < 1271004760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that stupid < 1271004763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, good < 1271004809 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The underload interp speed is probably quite STRN-dependent, and the stack starts from column 0 and extends to the negative direction, in case that bit of trivia is interesting. There's a whole lot of copying with STRN from stack to temporary space and back. < 1271004816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but see. For real world befunge apps your carefully-tuned-for-CCBI measurements in fungicide doesn't mean a lot ;P < 1271004816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Any ideas about making that ul-interpreter runnable without requiring an IRC server < 1271004826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's a standalone version of it already, actually. < 1271004837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Cool! Where's it at < 1271004845 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271004845 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271004846 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Who knows? I'm trying to find it right now. < 1271004849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-) < 1271004856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have it < 1271004859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find it any more < 1271004861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If it's about STRN as he suggests, it's the fact that STRN isn't optimized at all. < 1271004875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1271004886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271004886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/FLOO < 1271004886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I found "underload.b98" and "underload2.b98" in my unversioned fungot/misc dir, but I don't know which one is which. < 1271004887 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it depends. if we're going to make functional programming possible. " standard" here... < 1271004889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see ^ < 1271004902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that one was called underload.b98 < 1271004913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98 and http://zem.fi/~fis/underload2.b98 -- you can diff all three if you want. :p < 1271004930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do these have a timeout? < 1271004941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrrm, actually probably not. < 1271004948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1271004955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those infinite loops? < 1271004957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mine is the non-2 < 1271004976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the programs I did will not terminate. < 1271004995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so that's not very optimal. < 1271005001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh btw I made sure my STRN is quite tuned because fungot uses it. IIRC I even did it at fizzie's request, for being able to up the time limit < 1271005001 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. it's a long time, just send it straight to the end of the < 1271005003 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271005013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not completely sure, it was as fungot said, a long time ago < 1271005014 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also it isn't as fast as scheme48? are you serious? how long did it take you to switch between dialects should probably be < 1271005022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i vaguely recall augur had an acm account < 1271005036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like it < 1271005041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I guess you'd be more of an AMS person. < 1271005043 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Append" does things like pop both strings and push them back. < 1271005045 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271005047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In CCBI, that is. < 1271005057 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume yours does it in-place? :-) < 1271005065 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's going to be a few days until I can get it < 1271005080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm it seems mine pops both too. < 1271005081 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned it to my step-mom's mother, and my dad doesn't want my step-mom hearing about it < 1271005084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd < 1271005099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really should not be needed < 1271005111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If you want, you can hack in a timeout; just pick a suitable spot from the beginning of the "interpreter main loop" part, and add in a bit of code; something like 81g1-:!#@_81p or some-such; and initialize with [large number]81p above. It's basically what my timeout does. < 1271005118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could pop top one and then push it back, after removing the final \0 byte < 1271005120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could it not? < 1271005136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, I was looking at something like that. < 1271005150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, except that would run into issues should the second string have it's \0 = stack underflow < 1271005151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1271005158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no \0 in the stack < 1271005188 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: For example the part that does "1+ :0g:" is executed every round, somewhere in there maybe. < 1271005236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload2 looks much nicer to edit in that respect < 1271005278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's the same code, just compacted a bit. < 1271005285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it looks such. < 1271005322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: btw for a quadtree mapping all of Z x Z i think it only makes sense if there is an infinite tower of parents < 1271005354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can of course do that by expanding on the fly < 1271005361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is no good! CCBI terminated in 8 seconds and cfunge is still going. >_< < 1271005374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it infinite-looped somewhere. < 1271005415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well it's actually Z/nZ x Z/nZ < 1271005421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where n = 2^32 or 2^64, usually < 1271005423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have my notation right < 1271005445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also interestingly you cannot have each parent in that tower be in a _consistent_ position in relation to its parent, or else you will only get one quadrant of Z x Z < 1271005471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, in that case subdividing like Deewiant says makes more sense < 1271005521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the subdivisions are just the paired sequence of bits for x and y coordinate, really < 1271005527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, CCBI is just going a crapload faster at this than cfunge. < 1271005531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(direction of them, that is) < 1271005567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably make a non-socketized version of fungot, for benchmarking purposes. Non-intrusively I think it could be done by just arranging things so that it's the FILE R and W it uses instead of the SOCK ones there, and replacing the socket opening with file opening. < 1271005567 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: mostly directed ais523, if you're trying to solve < 1271005571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With 500k iterations CCBI takes 3.9 seconds, cfunge is giving me about 200 iterations per second < 1271005574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2000* < 1271005584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I made it print the iteration count after every 1000 iterations) < 1271005586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that doesn't match results on irc < 1271005589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: But I'm not trying to solve a directed ais523. < 1271005590 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yet another reason to be in there < 1271005594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try underload as opposed to underload2 < 1271005647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, in where? < 1271005647 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok well my code works?" " i'd try to infer what he means by enticing code and stepping in fnord. < 1271005650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, uh, I make no guarantees that the underload2 code is actually *correct*. It's just something I had. < 1271005694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, underload.b98 is much better. < 1271005703 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both go fast, with cfunge being faster. < 1271005711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see. That is the one you should use < 1271005712 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271005717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ;-P < 1271005731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still a bit curious that you get different results there. < 1271005734 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it is around ten times faster for CCBI as well, so it is preferable. < 1271005778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can actually make this valid SGML: T_`n` = #&sum# _(`k` = 1&to;`n`)_ 1/`k` < 1271005782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1271005785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expanding to < 1271005792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, wait, actually: < 1271005792 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If it does wrapping, that could be one reason for the difference. < 1271005793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah, selfishness is the strongest force. < 1271005799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T_`n`_ = #&sum# _(`k` = 1&to;`n`)_ 1/`k` < 1271005815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't usually do wrapping intentionally, but I guess it might do it accidentally. < 1271005825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI's wrapping can be constant time in situations where it's O(n) in the number of spaces for hash table types. < 1271005848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271005889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrap in the iteration time checkers, but then it should be the same for both. < 1271005922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how much faster is cfunge than ccbi at that btw? < 1271005955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's around 0.7 versus 0.45 (seconds) < 1271005960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, jitfunge's space is hash-table-based, but it does O(1)-ish wrapping, basically by computing the necessary delta-multiplications to get over the opposite top/side borders, then choosing the min() out of those and jumping directly there. It's a bit untested, though. < 1271005966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge being 0.45? < 1271005978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I did say it was faster... < 1271005998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes, but try increasing timeout so you get around 10 seconds of each < 1271006004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will be interesting < 1271006010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care that much < 1271006016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes a minute to callgrind as is. < 1271006024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you callgrind it? < 1271006028 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To profile. < 1271006034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you don't use oprofile? < 1271006039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently not. < 1271006063 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That can still be O(n) in some cases where CCBI is O(1) since your top/side borders always move with the whole space. < 1271006102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw this shows that while ccbi may excel at rather specialised test cases, cfunge is the best interpreter if you prefer real world applications ;P < 1271006189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and do tell me where it spent the time when you analysed the callgrind result < 1271006252 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271006295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, wtf < 1271006302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My iteration-checker is broken < 1271006312 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It never reenters the main loop >_< < 1271006335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the underload2 case? < 1271006340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the underload one? < 1271006344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, that's why I called it just "O(1)-ish". :p < 1271006345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter < 1271006354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-P < 1271006368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here we go, 3.6 versus 2.6 now. < 1271006379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and the latter is cfunge? < 1271006380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least CCBI uses a lot less memory. :-P < 1271006383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271006405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do you special-case cardinal-direction movement/wrapping somehow? I don't do non-cardinal deltas at all, after all. < 1271006416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, memory usage is not of primary interest to cfunge. As long as it is reasonable (as defined by me!) < 1271006445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, haha < 1271006449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't solve a diophantine equation for that case < 1271006456 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I guess I do, but I avoid the division < 1271006471 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least I think I do that. < 1271006493 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I appear to. < 1271006536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I just end up jumping to the opposite side. How much faster is the diophantine equation for non-cardinal wrapping than doing it like in the funge-98 spec? < 1271006545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, reversing and searching for the opposite side < 1271006613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: time ccbi slowdown.b98 mycology.b98 -> 0.87user 0.00system 0:00.88elapsed 99%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 66096maxresident)k < 1271006623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: time cfunge slowdown.b98 mycology.b98 -> 10 seconds and counting < 1271006648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, huh? With exact bounds? < 1271006654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271006666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm extremely surprised. Did you change something recently? < 1271006682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like no longer removing the slowdown program from memory or such < 1271006692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or resetting the storage offset to 0? < 1271006693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think slowdown has changed < 1271006710 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I changed Mycology to go a bit further < 1271006716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with a bad storage offset, or something < 1271006718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, using the slowdown version I have here, it is quick < 1271006726 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latest Mycology? < 1271006730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does it end? < 1271006741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in disaster, obviously < 1271006746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite < 1271006765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it takes < 1271006767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1271006768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1271006771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: basic cBAD: t reflects without creating a new IP or concurrency is very broken < 1271006771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Situation might be very messed up, trying to quit with q < 1271006777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only with slowdown < 1271006798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that where ccbi ends too? < 1271006802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1271006812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it took about 3 seconds. Let me rerun with time < 1271006823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 2.83 seconds wall time < 1271006841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at 4 minutes of CPU and counting < 1271006847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suppose you either disabled exact bounds or you hit a bad random position < 1271006865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me the random position it ended up at < 1271006878 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1271006878 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That the position of the IP was ( -1178306726 1116900389 ) < 1271006886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1271006910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, my slowdown seems to be that hardwired one you gave me to test that bug some time ago < 1271006917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well heh < 1271006921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can't find any other < 1271006923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one goes to a really low point < 1271006925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link to current version? < 1271006941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wgetable link that is < 1271006950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? < 1271006956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006957 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006957 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm? < 1271006967 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ! < 1271006989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see you are trying to make a point. I don't see what said point is < 1271006996 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98 < 1271007000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1271007013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had to upload it first < 1271007037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does it do wrapping inside y? < 1271007045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it seems to be writing around 0,0 < 1271007049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not odd in that case < 1271007049 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology always wrapped inside y < 1271007067 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If by "inside y" you mean "in the y tests", anyway. < 1271007072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1271007079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was obvious < 1271007087 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was, fairly. < 1271007124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GOOD: basic cBAD: t reflects without creating a new IP or concurrency is very broken <-- :D < 1271007142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, that underload.b98 takes a long time. < 1271007150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :62750457 ticks < 1271007150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not on cfunge :P < 1271007181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scrödinger's concurrency < 1271007186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+h < 1271007192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because it is a real world application®, which cfunge® is optimised for. Unlike CCBI, optimised for exotic benchmarks < 1271007226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want some proof you actually registered that trademark < 1271007236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially the one for application® < 1271007238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't. It was a joke < 1271007248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually it is "real world application"® < 1271007255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just application < 1271007277 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Removing fingerprints cut off some 0.3 seconds, but not enough to make the difference < 1271007283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you cannot joke about such matters, you'll end up in jail < 1271007290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fingerprints from what? underload? < 1271007298 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...... CCBI < 1271007307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A quadtree may be represented without pointers by encoding each black node with a quaternary integer whose digits reflect successive quadrant subdivisions. We refer to the sorted array of black nodes as the linear quadtree and show that it introduces a saving of at least 66 percent of the computer storage required by regular quadtrees. Some algorithms using linear quadtrees are presented, namely, (i) encoding a pixel from a 2n 2>n array (or scr < 1271007308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :een) into its quaternary code; (ii) finding adjacent nodes; (iii) determining the color of a node; (iv) superposing two images. It is shown that algorithms (i)-(iii) can be executed in logarithmic time, while superposition can be carried out in linear time with respect to the total number of black nodes. The paper also shows that the dynamic capability of a quadtree can be effectively simulated. < 1271007309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for mycology or underload? < 1271007314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which test is you testing on < 1271007321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't test Mycology, it runs in 0s. < 1271007322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are* < 1271007344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then. underload.b98 needs STRN. So weird that it works at all if you remove fingerprints < 1271007348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus it can't be it < 1271007352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be something else < 1271007356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say /all/ fingerprints < 1271007365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1271007395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway why would removing fingerprints help? Basically it would reduce the binary size and the time needed to look up the fingerprint name < 1271007403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: TRDS, IMAP, IIPC, MODE... < 1271007405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if those added up to 0.3 seconds something is *very* wrong < 1271007415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, all those fingerprints that you don't implement < 1271007424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, those are in core partly, no? You have the core parts in #ifdef or such? < 1271007426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think that assumes actually allocating all the quadtree as an array up front < 1271007430 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do. < 1271007433 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In part. < 1271007433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271007463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, except that last sentence < 1271007468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, just accept it. You made a great funge interpreter. But you can't be best at everything < 1271007470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271007484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So what's this I hear about you making a better Funge-Space? :-P < 1271007501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- is notation for the turnstile |- isn't it < 1271007506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh wait, it's actually _saving the coordinates_? < 1271007506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes, I can do that, But I would be very much surprised if that didn't result in it ended up slower at something else < 1271007513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it does < 1271007541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so that is a trade off. You seem to use less memory too. Perhaps you preferred memory over speed in some tradeoffs? < 1271007545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ended with: 11 AABBs live < 1271007546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had: 12 AABBs live at maximum < 1271007546 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271007551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271007553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't sound very good. < 1271007565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't tell < 1271007571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1271007581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if the program is split out in many parts it seems reasonable < 1271007600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I just realised a ul program that will throw off your algorithm < 1271007606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem split. < 1271007622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the comments are to be believed, this should allocate at most 3 AABBs at any given time, I think. Maybe 2. < 1271007623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one that writes large stretches of spaces in the stack then switches it to being filled < 1271007638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the stack? < 1271007643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the ul stack < 1271007645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is in funge space < 1271007651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1271007658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That shouldn't be much of a problem? < 1271007670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I don't know if you ever free AABBs? < 1271007678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or shrink them < 1271007682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rarely. < 1271007691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never in this program. < 1271007703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stack of 'ul < 1271007709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about shrinking them? Probably ccbi could be fooled into having a lot of mostly empty AABBs around < 1271007724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that could happen. < 1271007755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, making it resort to the hash table., and then you make sure most of the cfunge static funge space is out of any AABB, thus giving cfunge an advantage < 1271007757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1271007763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should write such a test for fungicide < 1271007768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271007771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I bet you won't :P < 1271007776 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand what you mean. < 1271007817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I presume that if the program itself is actually just something tiny that loads the main program somewhere else and then jumps to it you won't have much of an AABB around the (0,0)? < 1271007840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've pretty much just described slowdown.b98. :-P < 1271007850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and if that is cleared and then that AABB reused elsewhere for those mostly static ones. < 1271007861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271007865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly empty ones* < 1271007880 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is reused elsewhere? < 1271007884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1271007890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does fungicide do slowdown? < 1271007894 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1271007896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, it should; it would then take 5 years to run < 1271007900 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. :-P < 1271007903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't know. I presume you won't leave empty AABBs around if you are out of them elsewhere? < 1271007923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do. < 1271007927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and when it switched to hash table, does it grow any of the existing AABBs? < 1271007933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. < 1271007947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271007947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of word array < 1271007948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * subtree * subtree * subtree * subtree < 1271007952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In underload.b98 it didn't switch to hash table, I don't know why we're talking about the hash table. < 1271007953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the optimal practical structure, right? < 1271007966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not talking about underload.b98 < 1271007968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You need a coords in the Leaf, no? < 1271007973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where subtree is a pointer to maybe-a-quadtree < 1271007975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hm, right. < 1271007988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271007988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of coords * word array < 1271007988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * subtree * subtree * subtree * subtree < 1271007988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and type subtree = quadtree option ref < 1271007991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway. Once that switch over happened, this benchmark would then write some funge space intensive thing near 0,0, but outside the initial AABB < 1271007996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside cfunge's static area < 1271008005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but outside the initial AABB < 1271008013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the only operations I need are < 1271008015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val move : quadtree * direction -> quadtree < 1271008016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val leaf : quadtree -> word < 1271008017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val put : quadtree * word -> unit < 1271008021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is my suggestion for a new fungicide benchmark :P < 1271008021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can perform the rest with pattern-matching + them < 1271008022 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That sounds a bit like an anti-CCBI test. :-P < 1271008033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but I feel you have too many pro-CCBI tests already < 1271008036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need some balance < 1271008045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not really pro-CCBI IMO. < 1271008053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of them were written before I even knew what to do with CCBI 2. < 1271008076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right, but then you made sure ccbi2 would be fast with those, even at the expense of apps like underload.b98 ;P < 1271008079 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just thinking of different kind of data access patterns. < 1271008082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinds* < 1271008090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Of course the issue now is: deciding the size of the array, and finding out how the hell I do the subdivision. < 1271008095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, actually I was trying to be fast at everything. < 1271008108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But heuristics will fail. (If that's what's going on here.) < 1271008128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, that is almost the definition of heuristics. "Will sometimes fail" < 1271008135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. < 1271008155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was that to me or alise? < 1271008174 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that alise's last was a minute ago... to you. < 1271008180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can't tell what alise is saying due to /ignore < 1271008185 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then don't make it my problem. < 1271008188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys, did I mention I have alise on ignore < 1271008192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys GUYS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT < 1271008193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1271008197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't understand you it's like you're talking to thin air < 1271008200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must have been to alise ;P < 1271008203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, lots of weird boxes in underload.b98. < 1271008203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh it's alise. I have her on ignore by the way. < 1271008208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1271008269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway some anti-ccbi test might be a good idea. It isn't like CCBI will end up like Language::Befunge because of that < 1271008292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way Language::Befunge can beat ccbi, even at extremely anti-ccbi benchmarks < 1271008294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can think of something reasonable and/or will implement it... < 1271008305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Really, hollow-square and diagdown/diagup are anti-current-CCBI < 1271008307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suggested something above. I guess you consider it unreasonable? < 1271008336 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It just seems a bit random and too "tailored" < 1271008339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway adding some real applications, such as life.bf and underload might be a good idea. I assume ccbi will be quite okay at the former < 1271008344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the use case? < 1271008346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it keeps inside the b93 area < 1271008350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they are a good idea < 1271008362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :life.bf I considered but found too much of a pain to try to figure out < 1271008370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload I didn't realize was available in such a convenient form. < 1271008380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do you mind restating what the directions have to mean? Not specific ones, but the general... < 1271008387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, life.bf is some quite amazingly compact code yes < 1271008397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also perhaps some IO performance tests < 1271008400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be interesting < 1271008414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just standard IO but also i and o < 1271008421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Directions mean directions. What do you mean? < 1271008442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes; please go ahead and write such tests. I'm not that interested in I/O performance so I haven't done that. < 1271008447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't know how good ccbi is at i? < 1271008448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271008451 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271008455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: for instance < 1271008458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Neither do I? < 1271008461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1271008469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you interested in finding out? < 1271008469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NW = (-1,-1), NE = (-1,1), SW = (1,-1), SE = (1,1) < 1271008473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: but then what of (0,2) < 1271008483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really? :-P The disk tends to be the bottleneck < 1271008485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do we get there, considering all moves are diagonal? < 1271008496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ffs. ramdisk < 1271008502 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Rare. < 1271008508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well you could test that < 1271008513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Rare. < 1271008516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The locations of the branches don't matter, only the root. < 1271008518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway for stdio you don't need to ever put it on that < 1271008520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Er, the current node. < 1271008525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it could go through a pipe < 1271008530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to a throughput measuring app < 1271008532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1271008533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't quite understand. :-P < 1271008568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and what about fingerprint performance. Some might be interesting. Like FRTH and STRN. Both can be be implemented both quite fast and also very very naively < 1271008568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, I'm not sure what you're asking. If you want to know where to find/place (0,2), you look at where you are now and go in the appropriate direction. < 1271008575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that might show a huge difference < 1271008585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3DSP might be interesting too < 1271008587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You are at (0,0). < 1271008600 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If x is equal do we go west or east? < 1271008601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can move to (1,1), (1,-1), (-1,1), (-1,-1). < 1271008605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Incorrect. < 1271008610 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You can move NW/NE/SW/SE. < 1271008610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(NW/NE/SW/SE) < 1271008618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ffff < 1271008619 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What points are there is beyond are concern at this point. < 1271008623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our* < 1271008625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something like a befunge dhrystone? < 1271008626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then: < 1271008634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :North - X is same; South - X is different < 1271008643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :West - Y is same; East - Y is different < 1271008645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, wait. < 1271008647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's silly. < 1271008650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, from what I can tell, the current fungicide benchmarks don't test arithmetic speed < 1271008652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, all manner of thing can be tested that Fungicide doesn't. It is also work to do. < 1271008653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :North - Y is same; South - Y is different < 1271008660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :West - X is same; East - X is different < 1271008673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we want to move southeast? < 1271008682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this could be one place where jitfunge could shine. Optimising divisions by 2^5 into bitshifts and such < 1271008687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: X is same here, so southwest, no? < 1271008690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not feasible in either cfunge or ccbi < 1271008704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have lots of work to do; if you want these things to happen, help out. (It's probably fairly trivial to write this kind of benchmark.) < 1271008724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0,0) / (0,2) < 1271008724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) < 1271008727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is right < 1271008728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is wrong < 1271008737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * NW: right X, right Y < 1271008737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * NE: right X, wrong Y < 1271008738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * SW: wrong X, right Y < 1271008738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * SE: wrong X, wrong Y < 1271008749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so northeast < 1271008752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's not about right/wrong < 1271008752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1271008754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is vertical < 1271008755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway most useful is definitely real programs. I think life.bf would be most useful of these < 1271008756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1271008761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay let me rewrite this < 1271008766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's about lesser-equal/greater vs lesser/greater-equal < 1271008768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is non-trivial to adapt < 1271008791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So please adapt it so I don't have to. :-P < 1271008793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * NW: wrong X, wrong Y < 1271008793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * NE: right X, wrong Y < 1271008793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * SW: wrong X, right Y < 1271008793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * SE: right X, right Y < 1271008796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1271008801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Wrong = different, right = same < 1271008802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1271008806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) = (0,0) < 1271008810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) = (0,2) < 1271008813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how many FLOPS can FPSP in ccbi manage btw? ;P < 1271008815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is right, y is wrong. < 1271008818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Northeast. < 1271008819 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do not know. < 1271008823 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As you know. < 1271008831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm trying to get you interested in it dammit ;P < 1271008836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We want to move northeast. < 1271008840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not gonna happen like that. :-P < 1271008848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1271008848 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: y increases to the south, no? < 1271008870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay, I am so fucking confused. My brain appears to have forgotten coordinates entirely. < 1271008879 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 2010-04-11 19:59:02 ( Deewiant) alise: It's about lesser-equal/greater vs lesser/greater-equal < 1271008883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still. < 1271008887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having NW be wrong X, right Y seems so wrong. < 1271008894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :West and North seem so... samey. < 1271008895 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's not about wrong/right, still. < 1271008901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You said same/different. < 1271008907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't say <=/> < 1271008913 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Where'd I say that? < 1271008923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ages ago. < 1271008937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/last same doesn't see me saying much of anything. < 1271008944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, fine. < 1271008952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does see you saying it a couple of times, though. :-P < 1271008972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Make life simpler for yourself and pick (1,2) for the example. :-P < 1271008972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, wait, eh? < 1271008975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have four comparisons. < 1271008982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I want to map [NS][WE] to pairs of ... what? < 1271008983 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have two comparisons. < 1271008989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lesser-equal/greater vs lesser/greater-equal" < 1271009011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how far has he reached in his funge thing? Still deciding language? Or deciding how to implement the main loop now? < 1271009012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If input.x < node.x then go west; if input.x > node.x then go east; similarly for y < 1271009014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps the stack < 1271009031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The question is, which branch do we take when input.x = node.x. < 1271009039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (And it's completely arbitrary.) < 1271009058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay, I'll write this down. < 1271009062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I guess fungespace and quad/oct-tree then < 1271009089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Disabling statistics bought me another 0.3 seconds. < 1271009094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: iiuc and if you are using 2^n x 2^n space then there is an easier way to look at it < 1271009097 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm only 0.4 seconds behind now. :-P < 1271009107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try disable tracing for cfunge < 1271009110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, otherwise it isn't fair < 1271009111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If I pick <= for North, I should pick <= for east, so that there's a sort of symmetry, rather than having a bias. :-D < 1271009115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically take the (x,y) coordinate, write each of x and y in binary < 1271009115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's enabled in CCBI. < 1271009129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well you have a debugger for it, mine is closer to statistics < 1271009130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whatever. :-P < 1271009139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Er, no it isn't < 1271009141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so yes disable the tracing, won't make much of a difference < 1271009150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say x = 00001100 and y = 11100001 < 1271009151 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Both are just one if (tracing) doSomething(); < 1271009166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you have tracing inside k too? < 1271009167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I do < 1271009177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My statistics are all over the place: one per tick, one per IP per tick, one per Funge-Space lookup, one per stack push, one per stack pop, etc. < 1271009182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: < 1271009183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* North: wanted y <= current y < 1271009183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * South: wanted y > current y < 1271009183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * < 1271009183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * East: wanted x < current x < 1271009183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * West: wanted x => current x < 1271009185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *) < 1271009186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: then _pair_ corresponding bits. 01 01 01 00 10 10 00 01 < 1271009189 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are no ks in this program. < 1271009197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, my trace is all over the place too: one per ip per tick and in k < 1271009198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, (0,2); x is ok, so West; y is wrong (wanted is greater), so South. < 1271009202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Southwest, Deewiant, right? < 1271009203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, plus in some fingerprints iirc < 1271009204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wut. < 1271009206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, that's not all over the place. :-P < 1271009224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those pairs are your directions. 00 = SW, 01 = NW, 10 = SE, 11 = NE < 1271009227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Right. < 1271009230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from the root) < 1271009234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw when do you shrink bounds in ccbi2? < 1271009240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But then what? Do we just insert a leaf there? < 1271009242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't see how this is "an easier way to look at it" < 1271009245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, lazily? Or eagerly ? < 1271009248 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In y. < 1271009256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I have no clue how I'm going to do exact bounds with this < 1271009260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you have a flag for if it is exact like I do? < 1271009261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, now you go there and take a look. < 1271009267 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, I don't. < 1271009270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271009275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: >_< < 1271009284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I.e. take the SW link and do something based on what's there. < 1271009292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw with the hash table funge space is your wrapping still O(1)? < 1271009296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I.e. recursion. :-P < 1271009313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My wrapping is not globally O(1) < 1271009315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'll write a function to decide what direction to go in, then. < 1271009325 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Good idea! < 1271009358 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But yes, it uses the same algorithm, just treating the hash table area as one more box. < 1271009368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so one could make a benchmark where you get very slow wrapping due to using hash table and only shrinking bounds in y? < 1271009383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well i cannot make heads or tails of what you are saying, so easier for _me_ :D < 1271009384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you shrink the bounds of the hash table box then? < 1271009387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The bounds aren't used for wrapping. < 1271009395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: >_< < 1271009400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It freaks me out that we have x,y in tuples but y,x in direction names < 1271009402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like northeast < 1271009411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then what is used for it? if you have a huge sparely populated hash table box < 1271009411 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Blame English. :-P < 1271009411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i guess N and S should be switched if y is numbered from top like in funge < 1271009435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't get it < 1271009450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pun I mean < 1271009454 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271009454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pun < 1271009457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably due to something alise said? < 1271009463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant: well i cannot make heads or tails of what you are saying, so easier for _me_ :D oerjan: >_< < 1271009474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What makes you think there is a pun anywhere. < 1271009480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oerjan said it :P < 1271009495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he is just frustrated i don't understand his NW stuff (or at least don't think it helps any) < 1271009497 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If oerjan says something it is not automatically a pun. < 1271009498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty good indicator of P(pun) < 1271009509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is if someone else go >_< at it < 1271009529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm the only one here who goes >_< at anything < 1271009540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think I don't usually respond to puns < 1271009540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I do it, in other channels mostly < 1271009555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more often -_- though < 1271009575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i assumed you were trying to find out how to go to a specific coordinate. from the root my way is very simple. < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun directionFor ((cx,cy), (wx,wy)) = < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case (wy <= cy, wx < cx) < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : of (false,false) => SW < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (false,true) => SE < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (true,false) => NW < 1271009607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (true,true) => NE < 1271009620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Interleaving the x-bits and y-bits? I don't see the point of that at all < 1271009636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: val move : quadtree * direction -> quadtree < 1271009636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val leaf : quadtree -> word < 1271009637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val put : quadtree * word -> unit < 1271009646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think these primitives are wrong. < 1271009658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there is a useful set of primitives that do not handle coordinates themselves for this structure. < 1271009732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it tells you immediately the path from the root of the quadtree to the given coordinate < 1271009753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: Interleaving the x-bits and y-bits? I don't see the point of that at all <-- cache? < 1271009754 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't understand at all how < 1271009778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: let's say we have a 256 x 256 fungespace to be made into a quadtree < 1271009785 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It depends on the quadtree itself, doesn't it? < 1271009805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but we are assuming that it is centered at (0,0) < 1271009808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: maybe you have some different structure in mind < 1271009810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I guess helps < 1271009884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well you could make it -256 to 255 coordinates < 1271009893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, -128 to 127 < 1271009924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then (0,0) is at the lower left corner of the upper right quadrant, as close to the center as you can get < 1271009950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, sure < 1271009953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just have to invert the very top bits for that < 1271009969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the sign bits) < 1271009974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see at all how this bit-interleaving works :-P < 1271010001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er i keep thinking y increases upward < 1271010006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in math) < 1271010017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so switch upper and lower above < 1271010054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the upper left quadrant is now (-128, -128) to (-1, -1) < 1271010069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can be detected by the sign bits < 1271010075 0 :charlls!~charlls@186.72.7.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271010092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower right is (0, 0) to (127, 127) < 1271010106 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-28-99.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271010115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait using y increasing upwards should i change my north/south conditions?? < 1271010121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er i mean < 1271010122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :increasing downwards < 1271010125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now when we subdivide the latter one, we get the upper left of _that_ is (0, 0) to (63, 63) < 1271010126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* North: wanted y <= current y < 1271010126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * South: wanted y > current y < 1271010128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so, so confused < 1271010139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Don't listen to us :-P < 1271010147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271010153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this convo. < 1271010156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get the subdivision algorithm :D < 1271010160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well it's just about being consistent but i assume you want south == downwards == increasing line number? < 1271010163 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If what oerjan does works, it's still an optimization. < 1271010172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't worry about it just now. < 1271010172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1271010177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my two lines are correct < 1271010189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so am I right in thinking tha < 1271010189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1271010195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val move : quadtree * direction -> quadtree < 1271010196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val leaf : quadtree -> word < 1271010196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : val put : quadtree * word -> unit < 1271010197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a bad set of primitives < 1271010202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's basically useless without coordinate stuff < 1271010234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need put : quadtree * coords * word -> unit < 1271010234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's just that i don't see how knowing whether something is north or south of where you are helps anything particularly with finding out which quadtree quadrants you are in < 1271010245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm from the convo it seems alise isn't copying ccbi, but rather is copying Deewiant's step by step guide < 1271010249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just saying < 1271010257 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It tells you which quadrant to go to next < 1271010266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, it isn't even CCBI's algorithm. < 1271010269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I mean, that's basically how a quadtree is defined < 1271010273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking for an explanation of an entirely neutral data structure. < 1271010287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: About a branch, the points northwest of it are in the northwest quadrant, and so on. :-P < 1271010300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you know, either shut up or unignore alise < 1271010306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm delighted that you've found happiness in being an irritating little prick by being an idiot with regards to me and continually mentioning that I'm annoyed; at least your life has purpose now. < 1271010313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I'm ignored < 1271010316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I am annoyed too. < 1271010333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the shut up goes for you too :D < 1271010336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: On the other hand, maybe he should keep me ignored :) < 1271010340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I haven't ignored him. < 1271010345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not my fault he's ignored me. < 1271010350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also annoyed, CCBI is failing at underload. :-P < 1271010352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entirely out of my control. < 1271010355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm? The former probably, I don't have anything to add after that. So it would be pointless not to shut up. A waste of the keycaps < 1271010408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stinkhorn uses 64x64 arrays, it seems. < 1271010415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like a nice round number. < 1271010433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well the thing is when you have a quadtree of integer coordinates, afaict the leaves are 1 x 1, their parents represent 2 x 2 and _their_ parents represent 4 x 4 squares, etc. < 1271010435 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Careful; I think Stinkhorn is GPL. < 1271010440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :-D < 1271010455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although 64x64 is suboptimal in that I think Befunge-93 programs should really fit into one array. < 1271010461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's then easy to align things such that the boundaries of the squares correspond to bit boundaries < 1271010463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, 80*80 is both not round and a bit too big. < 1271010468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96*96 is just travesty, isn't it? < 1271010479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there are no parents in quadtrees < 1271010481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot traverse upwards < 1271010495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are parents, you just can't access them. < 1271010515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now damn unsure if he knows what a quadtree _is_ < 1271010520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1271010531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You've been right so far AFAICT. < 1271010540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271010540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of coords * word array < 1271010541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * subtree * subtree * subtree * subtree < 1271010541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and type subtree = quadtree option ref < 1271010543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am fairly sure I have this right by now. < 1271010549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The array is, of course, just an optimisation.) < 1271010550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1271010558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you have this right. < 1271010559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that when I hit something I need to decide whether I'm in the bounds of any potential array. < 1271010563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, no. < 1271010565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just if I hit a leaf. < 1271010567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it? < 1271010568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271010571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. < 1271010573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise that would be painful. < 1271010594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your arrays need to be a power of two for this to work. < 1271010606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 64x64 blocks, plus an initial field of say a megabyte would be best; but that's not part of the quadtree stuff. < 1271010608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least without some carefulness. < 1271010620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, 64^2 = 4096, yep, that's a power of two. < 1271010628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271010645 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-102-63.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271010646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Careful; I think Stinkhorn is GPL. <-- oh, copying that too? How fun ehird must have < 1271010673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I thought you were going to shut up. < 1271010684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You know what, I think I'd really appreciate it if you either (a) unignored me, (b) shut the fuck up, or (c) go aestivated under a rock somewhere. < 1271010692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, until the point of seeing a point of pointing out something else < 1271010693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Apparently that'd be a "waste of key caps". < 1271010707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A point? As far as I can tell everyone either doesn't care or is irritated. < 1271010707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There is no point if you don't know the context. < 1271010716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*went and aestivated < 1271010731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I know the context. Just not the complete context ;P < 1271010752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I.e. you don't know the context. < 1271010753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION eliminates the QUADTREE signature for now < 1271010757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rather concrete atm < 1271010781 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by Stinkhorn you mean my befunge thing, it uses the MIT license. < 1271010806 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, my bad. < 1271010818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Your octrees are confusing as fuck, and I'm doing it with half the trees! < 1271010847 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I agree < 1271010920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, out of interest, what sort of funge space do you use? Quad tree? hash table? AABBs? < 1271010929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something else? < 1271010933 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an octree/quadtree < 1271010942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271011012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have said that an octree's paths from the root is just combining _triples_ of bits from the coordinates, if i was sure of anything anymore < 1271011013 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses page sizes of 64x64 or 4x4x4 depending on how many dimensions are in use < 1271011041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, so smaller pages in trefunge? < 1271011044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: $ ./stinkhorn -3 < 1271011045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: -3 doesn't do anything yet < 1271011063 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: haha, interesting... it should do something < 1271011112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1271011123 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's kind of a design limitation actually, it would take some work to support non-cube pages < 1271011137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME CUBE < 1271011150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody should make a time cube programming language. < 1271011153 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gogogo. < 1271011194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16x16x16 would be as big as 64x64 btw < 1271011202 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: seems like the warning is indeed wrong there... does it run a trefunge program properly? < 1271011262 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it seems I actually use 8x8x8. < 1271011274 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think 16x16x16 wasted too much memory. < 1271011275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: It doesn't seem to, no. < 1271011280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8x8x8x8 would also be the same size < 1271011304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4D funge is evil ;P < 1271011311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus non-portable < 1271011317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no standard file format for it yet < 1271011365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, old version of stinkhorn? < 1271011383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, basically, all my functions on quadtrees should take coordinates, as the actual primitive quadtree functions are basically useless. < 1271011386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah? < 1271011391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Latest hg. < 1271011398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271011416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'd say that's simpler, yes. < 1271011419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1271011421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :val get : quadtree * coords -> word < 1271011422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :val put : quadtree * coords * word -> unit < 1271011427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I need bounds too, don't I? < 1271011431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bounds will be hell :( < 1271011436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to worry about bounds yet :-P < 1271011450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1271011535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get should be easy enough... I hope. < 1271011580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :methinks youAreHere : quadtree -> coords needs a better name < 1271011584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, "here" should do fine < 1271011664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw stinkhorn handles lmh correctly in 2D < 1271011667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tested rcfunge yet < 1271011682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun get (qt, there) = < 1271011683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let here = currentCoords qt in < 1271011683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* move in direction `directionFor (here, there)`, < 1271011683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : subtract from coordinates appropriately (?), < 1271011683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and recurse *) < 1271011684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for branch nodes < 1271011685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1271011722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and surprisingly so does rcfunge! < 1271011730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that was unexpected < 1271011733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the arrays should have coordinates in the middle I think < 1271011781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, my small test program was: http://sprunge.us/WUdC < 1271011819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun get (Leaf(here, fs), there) = dummy (* handle the arrays, etc. *) < 1271011820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | get (Branch(here, st), there) = < 1271011820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* move in direction `directionFor (here, there)`, < 1271011820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : subtract from coordinates appropriately (?), < 1271011820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and recurse *) < 1271011823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1271011826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to subtract from the coords < 1271011915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's no reason I need to inspect the directions, is there? I'm thinking about just representing them as their accessor functions of the subtree structure < 1271011972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The directions themselves are always the same for any node so no, you don't need to do anything with them directly < 1271012018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Making the timeout-checker in underload.b98 do a wraparound is a wonderful way of increasing CCBI's time by 10% and cfunge's by over 1000% :-P < 1271012027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can't alise figure out that sort of things himself. After all he claims to be smart and such) < 1271012043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but that is pointless because most programs don't wrap around much < 1271012050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster has gone completely insane. < 1271012054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've finally managed to crack his psyche. < 1271012058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so I consider that utterly irrelevant for real usage < 1271012063 0 :ellisonch!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thank you very much for your help re. reMorse < 1271012066 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it depends < 1271012082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't ellisonch figure out that sort of things emself. < 1271012086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all e claims to be smart and such. < 1271012088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suggest you try to make CCBI fast at the non-wraparound case instead < 1271012089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: E.g. the way I originally wrote this, if I hadn't made an error, I would've preferred to wrap around. < 1271012093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, better spent time < 1271012102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no. < 1271012105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No offence, ellisonch. You're just the wonderful convenient scapegoat.) < 1271012107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not? < 1271012125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ellisonch, no problem < 1271012136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no "better spent time" since the way I do it now is not caused by massive optimization, it's pretty much a necessity < 1271012161 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. the wrapping hasn't been particularly optimized, it just seemed like the only sensible way to do it < 1271012168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, just making an anti-cfunge-test because you can't make ccbi look better any other way? < 1271012182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck now, seriously? < 1271012194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well that is what adding such a wrap around results in < 1271012196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1271012210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just messing around and seeing what affects runtime < 1271012222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not adding this to any official benchmark and then using that to say "oh ho, CCBI kicks cfunge's ass" < 1271012225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it favours AABB implementations and few other ones < 1271012231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well good then < 1271012237 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I specifically stayed away from putting any conclusions in Fungicide to avoid seeming biased < 1271012265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, especially since it is hard to tell how well it reflects "real" applications yes < 1271012300 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like having fast worst cases at the slight expense of the average, though < 1271012335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When clicking logout link): Error: You have been logged out due to inactivity. To perform this action you must first log in again below: < 1271012337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271012343 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But CCBI does have worst cases in the wrapping which will make it O(n^2) in the delta, IIRC < 1271012349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the first time I seen that happen < 1271012361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe just O(n) < 1271012369 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember exactly. < 1271012374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. < 1271012430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I do like having fast worst cases at the slight expense of the average, though <-- opposite for me < 1271012478 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think your intuition was right on the money, about having a space-filled stack which is then filled in here and there. < 1271012516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes, from reading your code it seems obvious this should be a bad case for it. I'm unable to tell how bad exactly without testing of course. < 1271012522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how bad was that case? < 1271012546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of getting one nice Nx1 rectangle there's one like that and then a dozen smaller squarish ones < 1271012555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271012563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that I didn't expect < 1271012581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the heuristic kicked in at some point and gave the Nx1 < 1271012584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expected several Nx1 instead < 1271012585 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately enough < 1271012600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you need to fine tune the test case to avoid that heuristic ;P < 1271012611 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I need to think about what to do in a situation like this. < 1271012628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might need a new subsumption pass. < 1271012647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does it matter much though? It is still reasonably fast I presume? < 1271012658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same old 3ish versus 2.5ish < 1271012674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? In speed ratio? < 1271012681 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In seconds < 1271012683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271012695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember the exact numbers; I pasted them to you an hour ago or whenever. < 1271012697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you get better for the non-wrapping compact stack case? < 1271012704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't changed anything at all. < 1271012707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271012713 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just looking at what's going on. < 1271012742 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271012747 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stinkhorn does it in about 5.5 seconds, FWIW. < 1271012758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how it wraps. < 1271012772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that the non-wrapping that is 5.5? < 1271012777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently slowly enough that its time goes up a lot when wrapping as well. < 1271012782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271012786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271012795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much does it go up by btw? < 1271012796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't be bothered to wait for the wrapping, like with cfunge. < 1271012799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271012806 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both take over a minute. < 1271012830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have an idea for slogan for ccbi < 1271012845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI: When edge cases is the only thing you care about < 1271012848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think? < 1271012862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster's new era: be a jerk to every single person. < 1271012863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's bullshit, but that's just me. < 1271012880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but "almost the only thing" wasn't as snappy ;P < 1271012898 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Befunge interpreter debates? < 1271012907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "debates", really. < 1271012909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You guys may well make me write a Befunge interpreter. :P < 1271012917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, 93 or 98? < 1271012925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure. < 1271012926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271012929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, both? < 1271012939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1271012945 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We managed to find a case where cfunge clearly beats CCBI and I'm trying to think of a heuristic that'd flip that. < 1271012968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and this one was in fungot < 1271012968 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: perhaps. it doesn't lose any points for the original term. units may be the first char < 1271012976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually more representative than fungicide < 1271012994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ^ul interpreter to be specific < 1271013021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Seems mutable. I may have to learn a thing or two about Haskell's arrays. < 1271013038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or go crazy and do more functional C? :P < 1271013041 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "More representative"? Of what? Of real world programs? Sure, given that fungot's the only one, it's representative of itself... < 1271013042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Don't use arrays. < 1271013042 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: exit the channel), is chicken a wib implementation of scheme < 1271013044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the latter! < 1271013052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You need 2^32 x 2^32, or even ^64, size array. < 1271013054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly! < 1271013061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you want something like a hash table, or a quad tree, or an array of boxes, etc. < 1271013074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, wib? < 1271013074 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but it wasn't even a word < 1271013084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed that was why I asked < 1271013084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So isn't cfunge the one tuned for a special case, namely only one program? :-P < 1271013087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, functional C would be hell: while -93 is a trivial task, -98 contains many, many corner cases and even implementing the basic instructions correctly requires thousands of lines of code. < 1271013102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Add in fingerprints and you have a project that must be embarked upon sanely. < 1271013107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not thousands. < 1271013116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, with exact bounds and forking? < 1271013118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Three. life.bf, underload.b98/fungot, mycology < 1271013118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Those Lua ones were almost there and they were at what, 500 lines. < 1271013118 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and merges them correctly when i now think it would make sense in unicode. < 1271013120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a few hundred, then. < 1271013123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant more like 1,000. < 1271013125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because those are the apps I know in befunge basically < 1271013137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Still, if you want any sort of speed it's over 1,000. < 1271013139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Forking is unnecessary, exact bounds is cheap linewise if you do it suboptimally < 1271013141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few small ones sure, like the TURT quine < 1271013145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you want a good set of fingerprints, 4,000+? < 1271013145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe, sure. < 1271013151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forking is unnecessary but nice to have. < 1271013161 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Define "real world app", of course. :-P < 1271013168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. This would require some actual thought regarding good data structures then. < 1271013180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've spent the past hours bugging Deewiant about quadtrees. < 1271013181 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's what alise's been up to the past few hours. < 1271013192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: A nicer phrasing of it. < 1271013197 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271013215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Eventually I settled on < 1271013217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : datatype quadtree < 1271013218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Now do I want "absolutely naive and readable" or "clever and speedy"? < 1271013219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something more complex than "hello world", something that fills or is larger than befunge93 space I guess. life.bf fills it. fungot and mycology are larger. < 1271013219 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: who even needs those equations? < 1271013220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = Leaf of coords * word array (* arrays are 64x64 = 4096 words *) < 1271013220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Branch of coords * {nw : quadtree option ref, < 1271013220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ne : quadtree option ref, < 1271013220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sw : quadtree option ref, < 1271013220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : se : quadtree option ref} < 1271013224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where array is mutable and ref is a non-NULL pointer < 1271013228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and there are two more things < 1271013232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(postfix parametric types, so it's A option) < 1271013245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Is not part of Fungicide? ;-) < 1271013246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If it's absolutely naive, good luck running any of the interesting programs like fungot. < 1271013246 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: and i hope your teacher will look at it like that < 1271013248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first is: isn't made especially to test performance (excludes slowdown.b98) < 1271013253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and fungicide too) < 1271013259 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271013262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh? < 1271013270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge is that freaking slow? < 1271013271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is: is actually used by someone < 1271013272 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ML syntax, I can't help but finding it so ugly < 1271013274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fungot < 1271013274 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it comes from printing " digital root: " and 255 and 0, oh my < 1271013275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... If implemented naively. < 1271013277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes; imagine its dawdling Underload performance, slowed down by a few hundred times. < 1271013286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, used for something not related to the program itself exclusively < 1271013292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may arguably exclude life.bf < 1271013297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CCBI and the other top interpreters run the Mycology test suite in something like 0.02 seconds. Slow interpreters like Language::Befunge take several minutes. < 1271013300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, what you're saying is threaded code. < 1271013302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It does IMO. < 1271013306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271013306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but I also use it sometimes to run GOL simulations < 1271013311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, before I installed golly < 1271013314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Self-modifying? fizzie tried that < 1271013317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not minutes. < 1271013317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Language::Befunge is the slowest interp; N-dimensional Perl interp) < 1271013323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Language::Befunge takes how long now? < 1271013328 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1271013330 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: CCBI 1 is slower than Language::Befunge on some programs. :-) < 1271013333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Threaded code, though. It's the Forth way! < 1271013336 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should write a Befunge interpreter in Haskell < 1271013342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, whatever. :) < 1271013345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hang on, /me times. < 1271013347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: OCaml syntax, yes. But Standard ML> < 1271013348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ML? < 1271013355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun currentCoords Leaf(c,_) = c < 1271013356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | currentCoords Branch(c,_) = c < 1271013356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* < 1271013356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | subtree (Branch(_,nw,_,_,_), NW) = nw < 1271013356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | subtree (Branch(_,_,ne,_,_), NE) = ne < 1271013356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | subtree (Branch(_,_,_,sw,_), SW) = sw < 1271013357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | subtree (Branch(_,_,_,_,se), SE) = se < 1271013358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes, something made especially for benchmarking isn't a "real world" program < 1271013359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 17 seconds. < 1271013360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1271013362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun directionFor ((cx,cy), (wx,wy)) = < 1271013363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how easy it is to handle the self-modification with that, though. < 1271013364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case (wy <= cy, wx < cx) < 1271013366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : of (false,false) => #sw < 1271013368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (false,true) => #se < 1271013370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (true,false) => #nw < 1271013372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (true,true) => #ne < 1271013374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks pretty pretty to me < 1271013376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hard < 1271013378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JITfunge was really nitty-gritty code < 1271013401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: How fast is CCBI2 running Mycology? < 1271013402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have great hopes of jitfunge < 1271013403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If I write an underload interp in Befunge for a Fungicide benchmark, is it a real world program? < 1271013408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I think it is the best way forward < 1271013408 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, too lazy to try to figure out how < 1271013421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if fizzie ever continues with it < 1271013432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I bet we will see a jitccbi3 some time after < 1271013446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because Deewiant can't accept not being best at befunge ;P < 1271013448 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Right now I've a fingerprintless version compiled, it takes 0.00s < 1271013461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I can't divide by zero. And with fingerprints. :-) < 1271013473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't want to compile a fingerprint version, I'm messing around. < 1271013480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1271013491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, would you make a ccbi3 in case of a JITing implementation overtakes you? < 1271013492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not much more than that, anyway. < 1271013501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, taking Deewiant's 0.00s for CCBI2 and 17 seconds for Language::Befunge, a non-naive interpreter is infinity times faster than a naive one on a simple test suite. < 1271013516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinity! That's bigger than 34, 3459873459, -2, and G_64. < 1271013524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Language::Befunge isn't that good an example, really. :-P < 1271013531 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not sure which dialect I'm offended by... what's the difference between ocaml and sml syntax? < 1271013535 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If I had something interesting to do with it, sure. < 1271013544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not just as a matter of principle, no. < 1271013545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ocaml looks like +. this /. 3. ;; < 1271013548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly I should first do a Befunge-'93 interpreter. < 1271013555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it is incredibly offensive < 1271013574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conversely, SML abstains from semicolons, has proper polymorphic arithmetic operations, etc. < 1271013576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw that is another problem with fungicide: In many of the tests the all of the instructions in the entire program are executed one time each. Which is _very_ rare for a "real world" befunge program. < 1271013585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically like Haskell without indentation-sensitivity and some minor stylistic choices. < 1271013588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That is about a page of code. < 1271013593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less if you use a good language. < 1271013607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Remember to prompt the user for the result to use on division-by-zero. < 1271013628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, befunge93 is a good way to start at doing befunge98 < 1271013632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was thinking of using C and crazy computed goto-ness, personally. < 1271013652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: There's one like that already. < 1271013653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you extend it. Then you rewrite the funge space and the stack-stack. Then you rewrite the rest < 1271013659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is not. < 1271013660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire fungespace architecture changes. < 1271013675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which one? < 1271013675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In some of the tests. Not all. < 1271013683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what it's called. < 1271013684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I said "many" < 1271013686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not "all" < 1271013690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm guessing funge93 is only a good way to get... Used to befunge. I'm imagining most of this code will be chucked. < 1271013706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah. < 1271013708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And you're free to look only at the other benchmarks if you wish. < 1271013720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mind, AnMaster certainly can't code Befunge, and I even less so. < 1271013727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant is probably the only implementer proficient in the language. < 1271013733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it doesn't bother me much in cfunge. But it is really unfair to something like jitfunge < 1271013737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and fizzie, but his interpreters are abandoned. < 1271013742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more or less) < 1271013775 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's nothing "unfair" about demonstrating a program which runs slower on one interpreter than another. < 1271013820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is if you do it to the point of making it show "timeout" for max time :P < 1271013828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it isn't. < 1271013844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a simple fact: this program took over 3 hours on this interpreter. < 1271013858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether you, the reader, care about that is up to you. < 1271013861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, how do you handle implementations that don't implement t in the rankings? < 1271013868 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They all do, so I don't have to worry. < 1271013881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well if you were to add efunge it wouldn't < 1271013891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'd have to worry about that. < 1271014115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the runtimes are about the same for (:^):^ < 1271014180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, underload without wrapping is really quite well suited to cfunge. Sure a static array there could work better in theory, but unlikely to be a problem in practise < 1271014190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also do you mirror the Nx1? < 1271014192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it well suited? < 1271014192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could help < 1271014196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it grows into -x < 1271014197 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mirror? < 1271014205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in start of array near origin < 1271014213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't. < 1271014213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and end of array growing towards -inf < 1271014222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For (:^):^ it doesn't matter anyway. < 1271014225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then I assume you have to realloc and also move the data < 1271014241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost nothing is allocated in that program. < 1271014241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well duh < 1271014250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I meant for the previous test program < 1271014256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you ran on the bots in here before < 1271014269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm markedly less interested in the more complex test program now that this gives the same results. < 1271014304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, sure. Because for that I think it is all in cfunge's static space < 1271014309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for you it is all in AABBs < 1271014314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same one even < 1271014325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so indeed it is not going to cause any problems for you < 1271014327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge's static space is an AABB. < 1271014328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor for me < 1271014331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1271014336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but a fixed such < 1271014395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and in that way we both do pretty much the same. Since mine is compile time fixed that means I have slightly less overhead when it comes to checking if I'm in it. The compiler can write smart code. < 1271014407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1271014416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the difference shouldn't be that big. < 1271014422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since it is a power of two size, it can also be smart at mapping x/y coordinates < 1271014432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1271014448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplying by line length < 1271014451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a bitshift < 1271014490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, while in CCBI as far as I understood the code it may very well be a multiplication. Which takes more cycles < 1271014495 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271014500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as bad as integer division true < 1271014502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1271014511 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those people in ##C channel won't help they make up all sort of confusing < 1271014524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of confusing what? < 1271014528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to write a code that makes a compile-time error in C if the endianness is wrong? < 1271014537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love me some unary &&. < 1271014539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1271014556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ooh, interesting < 1271014571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I'm not sure that is feasible. Try using something like a test program for it. Like autoconf or whatever < 1271014576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd construct some direct expression in something that won't have its endianness messed with, then cast it to the relevant type, < 1271014587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and e.g. make an array of size it, minus what it should be < 1271014591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus one < 1271014592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, better would of course be to support all both big and little endian systems < 1271014596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except opposite... < 1271014622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Endianness is a property of representations, not values, and you can only mess with values at compile time < 1271014624 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to use expression that can tell at compile-time the endianness. < 1271014628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My hunch is that it is impossible. < 1271014641 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It needs to be work on little-endian only < 1271014642 0 :atrapado!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271014645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm not sure, you can do tricks with making arrays minus-sized. < 1271014660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as far as I can tell from AMD docs bitshift is 1 cycle. reg32 is 4 cycles < 1271014668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for multiplication that is < 1271014671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And get a compile error? < 1271014674 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have made trick array with negative size for checking sizeof(int) and stuff like that at compile time < 1271014695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But you do an expression that's only -1 if it shouldn't work. < 1271014700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you can get sizeof(int) from limits.h < 1271014700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like zzo38 said, he's done that before. < 1271014710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you get the range of it < 1271014714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to compute from that < 1271014717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Right; but you can't do anything depending on endianness at compile time, was my point. < 1271014731 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Minus-sized arrays is just a compile-time assertion, that's a separate thing. < 1271014761 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see why, look at the code: http://codepad.org/FANFIgbc line 83 is the key but a black key would be keys[-1] (because of color 0 = black) and it would give you 256 gems < 1271014767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why don't you just use a configure script to check this? Or make it work on both big and little endian? < 1271014790 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZZT was never programmed with black key so when people figured out a black key this is what it did, and this why it does so. < 1271014876 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, it needs to work on little endian it is not supposed to work on big endian. < 1271014877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : #define inc_world_head < 1271014877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : #include "world.h" < 1271014879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1271014890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the point of that < 1271014896 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please note that "world.h" is this same file. It includes itself < 1271014903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yes but why < 1271014904 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you should be able to see the point of that < 1271014911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I see what it does < 1271014914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is because of ZZT. < 1271014917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see why that is useful < 1271014923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and why does zzt need it? < 1271014977 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite know, I didn't write ZZT. The people who did write ZZT wrote it in Pascal and has lost the source-codes but now I want to re-write it in C so that you do not lost the source-codes anymore < 1271014992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271015006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tim Sweeny wrote ZZT and his hard-drive broke, unfortunately. < 1271015025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, still I tell you the compile time endianness check is most probably impossible < 1271015040 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write ZZT as GNU GPL v3 < 1271015043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about bitshift operators < 1271015050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you will have to bite the bullet and use a configure script or rewrite the code to be endianness independent < 1271015052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boilerplate nearly complete. Whoo. < 1271015064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just assume it is little endian and fail on big endian < 1271015067 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. How do I use a configure script? < 1271015073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, boilerplate for what? < 1271015091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge '93 interpreter... < 1271015125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, make a shell script that compiles a test program basically and then generates an include file like "config.h" with a "#define BIGENDIAN" or "#define LITTLEENDIAN" or such < 1271015130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With control-flow being done via an array of addresses. :P < 1271015133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that errors < 1271015149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, there is GNU autotools but that is quite a horrible mess to write for < 1271015159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be easier to write your own shell script < 1271015167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you target *nix < 1271015170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for windows I have no clue < 1271015175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin I guess < 1271015177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mingw < 1271015186 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK I can understand, thanks. I can write a shellscript in bash and it can use MinGW if you are Windows < 1271015197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, or you could use something like cmake to do it. Which is like autoconf but another system < 1271015207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could compile a test program and do something based on the output < 1271015214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the basic ideas of all configure scripts < 1271015252 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have another question also that they don't answer in ##C channel: Is this the correct way to emulate counted strings: http://codepad.org/h5mOa9ZD < 1271015252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. Don't have a stack. Time to copy in Pikhq's Naive C Stack. < 1271015268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so do something like $CC -o test endiantest.c && FOO="$(./test)" && rm ./test < 1271015272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that won't work < 1271015282 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Just use Gregor's Naïve C Buffers < 1271015282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to what assignment and && does in bash < 1271015286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the general idea < 1271015300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, then you do something by checking $FOO or whatever your variable is. < 1271015314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you don't have a stack? < 1271015331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in, funge stack or C stack? < 1271015333 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK I understand the endianness check now but can you answer my second question? < 1271015340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, right. Those are nicer than my naive stack. < 1271015342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, hm *looks* < 1271015351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Funge stack. Though I am making no use of the C stack. < 1271015353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, define counted strings < 1271015362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My interpreter is based on computed goto. < 1271015365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, if you mean pascal style ? < 1271015372 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes I mean like that < 1271015385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, str[_1]? < 1271015394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I see now < 1271015400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh at that name < 1271015425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well not really. I see one issue here and that is that you allocate more than is needed < 1271015461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, a 10 char long string20 would still take 24 bytes (21, but three bytes of padding is added to that) < 1271015462 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What you mean by that, how is it allocate more than is needed? < 1271015481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK now I know. < 1271015492 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to remove the padding? < 1271015495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I would allocate it dynamically as a length byte + a number of chars < 1271015521 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do need to remove the padding so that it can work like how it is stored in ZZT < 1271015536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, the padding isn't the issue here. The issue is that it a 10 char string isn't 11 bytes (one for length, 10 for the string itself) < 1271015550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I've implemented -- I believe correctly -- get. < 1271015552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So only put to go. < 1271015556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no portable way to remove the padding. You could always do it manually and not use a struct at all for it < 1271015569 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Does GNU compiler can remove the padding? < 1271015572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, perhaps convert it to/from C-strings as you need it? < 1271015573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Definitely using the buffer macros of yours. < 1271015591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I think so, some type __attribute__ iirc < 1271015616 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to make it so that if it overflows, it overflows in the exact same way as ZZT does it < 1271015624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Type-Attributes.html < 1271015633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1271015639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, removing padding would slow it down for arrays of such though < 1271015657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well. Adapting, more-like. < 1271015658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, oh wait it won't work < 1271015664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is more padding < 1271015666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't be 24 < 1271015674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there will be padding between the length and the array too < 1271015677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just at the end < 1271015677 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Any generally-useful changes you make could be committed upstream :P < 1271015700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what are these buffer macros? < 1271015703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only thing I'm *adding* is a PUSH_BUFFER macro. < 1271015716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just some macros for handling C buffers safely. < 1271015726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like buffers of bytes? < 1271015731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271015733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271015741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why do you need that in a befunge interpreter? < 1271015741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/stuff/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/buffer.h < 1271015744 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, buffers of types. < 1271015749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What're the bounds of cfunge's static area? < 1271015753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The buffers can be of anything. < 1271015755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do you ask? < 1271015783 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any particular reason it's all macros rather than e.g. inline functions? < 1271015798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I want to see what making the first box be like that will do to the performance < 1271015808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Because. < 1271015814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I need to check then < 1271015829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_X 64 < 1271015829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_OFFSET_Y 64 < 1271015830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 512 < 1271015830 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay. < 1271015830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 1024 < 1271015834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that should tell you < 1271015847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So from (-64, -64) to (512-64, 1024-64)? < 1271015851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1271015856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, thanks < 1271015906 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271015940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also this is carefully tuned so that (FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y * sizeof(funge_cell)) % 128 == 0 holds true < 1271015962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'll let you figure out why on your own (alternatively read the code) < 1271015990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you've bragged about your inline asm often enough so presumably you want it aligned :-P < 1271016016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, correction: I want it to be not write outside of the array. That would be bad < 1271016023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it needs to be a multiple of a SSE store < 1271016046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't because of alignment. Which is also an issue of course < 1271016059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could always write the remaining bytes without an SSE store < 1271016076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, more complex. Too lazy < 1271016082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1271016091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for alignment I use an __attribute__ to ensure it is aligned < 1271016103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because SSE store requires it < 1271016103 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One and one still is one" < 1271016118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in it will cause an SIGSEGV (or was it SIGBUS) if not < 1271016199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw have you considered lazy funge loading? Like starting program when the top 200 lines or so is loaded, but then continuing load in the background < 1271016204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I have. < 1271016217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, really? The sync issues seems quite bad tot me < 1271016231 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't mean I can't consider it. < 1271016252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it would help much in practise < 1271016256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most files aren't so large < 1271016264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even fungot is only some 1000+ lines iirc? < 1271016265 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: except maybe when entering stuff into repl. then they're a bit steep. a meg of irc is quite dead. < 1271016290 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmh, bah, this sucks. Results point to a static area being a good idea even for me. But it's such a hack :-/ < 1271016309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "One and one still is one" < 1271016313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is /also/ one other one. < 1271016349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you mean it was faster using that size I used? < 1271016355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or that it wasn't faster? < 1271016380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that having the first box be a constant size helps. < 1271016399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah so the bitshift thing didn't affect it much? < 1271016416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it did. Or I don't know if it's that, but it's probably part of it. < 1271016417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yes it helps. But I bet it slows down some stuff in fungicide < 1271016445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I tell cfunge to not use its non-temporal loads and whatnot? < 1271016465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb there is some large moth < 1271016467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just brb < 1271016480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah got it < 1271016492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a large moth in front of the monitor was somewhat distracting heh < 1271016504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you mean? for filling it with spaces? Well let me check < 1271016530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1271016539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1271016540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, use ccmake to edit the build settings < 1271016544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, to to advanced < 1271016551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edit the cflags to add: -DCFUN_NO_SSE < 1271016560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that will be pure C one < 1271016577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is meant for some static analysis tools screwing up on the inline asm and such :D < 1271016596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, be aware of that if you type at the start of a field in cmake it will erase that field < 1271016604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so add it in the middle or two the end < 1271016604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how ccmake works. < 1271016613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI 2 uses a CMake build system. < 1271016615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I always found that "feature" annoying btw < 1271016617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah < 1271016635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, it made just about no difference anyway. < 1271016659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? Well it made here on my slower system. I guess your system is too fast to see it < 1271016668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically I was having bad cache trashing without it < 1271016675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the small cache I guess < 1271016779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder, why do I use intrinsics instead of inline asm for clang. < 1271016788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tests removing that check < 1271016807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now I know < 1271016815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: invalid output constraint '=o' in asm < 1271016819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gcc is happy with < 1271016929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so, is ccbi with the static space as fast as cfunge on that test case? ;) < 1271017121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it's still around 0.3 seconds slower < 1271017122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I still haven't figured out why you added me to #irp access list. Do tell me please. < 1271017163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you said "anything less than a second doesn't matter" before iirc? :P < 1271017173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you systematically probe people about their creations, as a program would, so you can figure them out? :) < 1271017181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: ping < 1271017195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, "plausible" reasons why I'm faster at this: I don < 1271017199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, something like that. I think I was referring to times below a second, but yeah. < 1271017200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* have code for other AABBs < 1271017202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1271017221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, " Nah, it's still around 0.3 seconds slower" < 1271017221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was asked to hand op to someone in there. < 1271017221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271017223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I did. < 1271017231 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, total running times. < 1271017232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? by who? < 1271017234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, WTF does "string mode" do? < 1271017239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no documentation. < 1271017241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, string mode implements string mode < 1271017242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't remember. < 1271017245 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hello < 1271017246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What documentation are you looking at? < 1271017250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, befunge98 documents it < 1271017257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiki, http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html. < 1271017260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, basically from " to the next " all are pushed as chars < 1271017273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It says it right there in the first par under "The Stack" < 1271017276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "hello" would push, h, e, l, l, o < 1271017279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1271017290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is their ASCII value < 1271017293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: would you be so kind as to take a brief glance at http://pastie.org/914495.txt?key=62xxzeduk3dhulomteqzg to see if I've got the basics of a quad tree right? since you're the only one who's actually implemented them :P < 1271017301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1271017302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, note: a zero byte inside a string is *perfectly* valid < 1271017304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy enough. < 1271017326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, of course a zero byte anywhere in the source is perfectly okay. mycology even tests that for befunge-98 < 1271017333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not a big deal. :) < 1271017337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it fit into the 93 section < 1271017354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, good. But if you use fgets() to read the file or such you might be in for a nasty surprise, that was my point < 1271017370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1271017382 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgets() doesn't stop at 0. < 1271017418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah yes, it was getline() that had the issue < 1271017427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still you need to think about it when handling the string < 1271017436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is no string, it is a binary buffer < 1271017467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just don't think of it as a string and it's no problem :-P < 1271017488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh and you should be able to handle any combination of \r \r\n and \n line endings in the program file. Possibly inconsistent in the same file even < 1271017509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've not bothered writing file-handling yet. < 1271017521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just pointing out some annoying pitfalls. That's all < 1271017527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1271017542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew I would have liked to know about them in advance myself :P < 1271017555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271017556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot more of them for 98 than 93 of course < 1271017577 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why you would ever write code that /doesn't/ handle inconsistent all kinds of newlines correctly < 1271017591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, haha. < 1271017595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can easily tell you < 1271017600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you used getline() for example < 1271017617 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why you would ever not just use fgetc() ;-P < 1271017624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc you complained about having to handle all the newline types too < 1271017645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it, I always do that. < 1271017658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it was when cfunge was still very new < 1271017674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway fgetc() is suboptimal! Having to go into bloated glibc code to fetch from it's buffer < 1271017682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was *measurable* with glibc < 1271017698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doing even fread() or such is much faster < 1271017787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I realised I have not yet seen cat in befunge. Things calling themselves cat sure < 1271017791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not proper cat < 1271017807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Proper cat"? < 1271017823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in takes a number of files on command line, outputs them in the order given < 1271017830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what cat is actually meant to do < 1271017835 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1271017856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proper cat izunt fake cat < 1271017856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat(1p) is very rare in esolangs < 1271017873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat "copy input to output" is common yes < 1271017907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU cat ignores -u, why's that < 1271018004 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that looks sane to me. < 1271018025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have no idea < 1271018027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: good; now I can proceed to break it < 1271018030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but yes I know about that < 1271018034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bug Deewiant some more about the subdivision algorithm :-) < 1271018051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait I know < 1271018056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pikhq can explain it < 1271018066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be because it loves showing off it's buffer implementation < 1271018188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blarg, LLVM stopped inlining an alwaysinline which is now killing performance. < 1271018196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1271018208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, alwaysinline = microoptimising to me < 1271018231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but there is help: rewrite it as a macro. Unless it actually "outlines" that < 1271018249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc gcc has an option to try to factor out common code for size optimisation) < 1271018275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's micro-optimizing; doesn't mean it doesn't help :-P < 1271018297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, of course I can force the inlining in other ways but blah. < 1271018474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey, I think it's because it's recursive now. < 1271018553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: When I have a branch with an uninitialised subbranch and I'm trying to put a character, I should initialise the subbranch to a leaf, right? < 1271018571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271018642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And the leaf should contain an array centred on the cell I'm setting. < 1271018652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's up to you. < 1271018652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I need to allocate from point-(32,32) to point+(32,32). < 1271018661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you can't possibly inline a recursive function :P < 1271018673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you can, just to a limited depth. < 1271018674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do I need to handle overflow in this code? I doubt it, since ints are... well... so big. < 1271018680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe you guys run into that. < 1271018681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1271018683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know. < 1271018685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I need to. < 1271018686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but I don't know any compiler doing it < 1271018689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure with quadtrees. < 1271018700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah < 1271018711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was any of that directed at me? < 1271018717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1271018719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271018737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could manually make it inlineable btw < 1271018756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in: foo() and foo_rec < 1271018756 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I do an s/// replacement with sed on a line that matches /foo/ but not /bar/? < 1271018767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with sed. Hm... No idea < 1271018777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With non-sed? < 1271018789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with pcregrep I know how to match it < 1271018796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but that can't replace < 1271018808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically you want negative lookahead/lookbehind < 1271018813 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I don't < 1271018818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1271018823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it should be possible with sed btw < 1271018823 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want if (/foo/) if (not /bar/) s/// < 1271018826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try reading man page < 1271018830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay what about awk then < 1271018836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be *trivial* in awk < 1271018842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck you almost wrote it in awk already < 1271018852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I write if (not /bar/) in awk < 1271018867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like that or very similar. Don't remember of the top of my head < 1271018881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try info gawk < 1271018923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/html_node/If-Statement.html#If-Statement should help < 1271018932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then how do I do a s/// in awk < 1271018954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't. < 1271018955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could pipe it to sed obviously ;-P < 1271018958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, again see info gawk, I have done this I know. It was quite some time ago < 1271018965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't suppose you feel like having one more bash at explaining the subdivision algorithm to me? ;-) < 1271018981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm browsing it, just not seeing it which is why I asked. < 1271018990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/html_node/Pattern-Overview.html#Pattern-Overview < 1271018991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/gawk/manual/html_node/Action-Overview.html#Action-Overview < 1271018995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should help somewhat < 1271019006 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen both of those pages, still missing it. < 1271019025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't find the script where I did it. But I know I have done it < 1271019029 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, I'll just pipe it to sed. :-P < 1271019044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how would you then replace it in those files? < 1271019060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marking the line with a marker at the start or somethiong? < 1271019062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something* < 1271019075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, http://www.gnu.org/manual/gawk/html_node/String-Functions.html < 1271019083 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, except it loses order. < 1271019101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think you want the sub() function < 1271019103 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: awk '{print foo | "sed bar"} < 1271019106 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271019119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that isn't complete < 1271019121 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271019123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ' is never closed < 1271019126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this now runs "Hello, world" correctly. < 1271019129 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ' < 1271019132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1271019133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, congrats < 1271019147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, syntax error: line 2: AnMaster: Something expected < 1271019148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1271019149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You go into the middle of the unallocated area. < 1271019151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see what instructions are unimplemented. < 1271019155 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That was the closing '. < 1271019160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What is the unallocated area? < 1271019166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&!gp < 1271019167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it read AnMaster: there < 1271019169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1271019169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1271019171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1271019171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&~gp < 1271019174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fun put (Leaf(here, page), there, value) = < 1271019174 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have, in fact, been dabbling a bit with jitfunge lately. It's still too broken to run underload.b98, but it does run hello.b98. :p < 1271019175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if withinArray (there, here) then < 1271019175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let (x,y) = relativeCoords (there, here) in < 1271019175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Array.update (page, flatCoords (x,y), value) < 1271019175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else < 1271019176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (* The current leaf does not contain what we want; we must transform it into a branch *) < 1271019178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And reading stuff in from file. < 1271019179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically that is the code I am trying to write. < 1271019184 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-8-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271019189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it runs life.bf still? < 1271019210 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think so. Haven't tried lately, though. < 1271019213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm, I'm not sure how it should be computed actualy < 1271019215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+l < 1271019233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, g and p are easy. & and ~ may not be due to the way their buffers interact < 1271019245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's bother Asztal to tell us. < 1271019266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Basically it's the area covered by that node < 1271019274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, basically you need to read in a line at a time then from that fetch next char/int, Note integer should swallow trailing \n , but getting a char should not < 1271019284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I remember correctly < 1271019292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ? No, that branch is for "this 64x64 node does not contain the point we want". < 1271019296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it used to work < 1271019303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we need to create a new branch, which has one of the branches be the 64*64 node. < 1271019313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes < 1271019325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but I've cleaned things up since then. I think it was the breaking of life.bf that demotivated me a bit with trying to continue with the older code. < 1271019328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But I meant the maximum area that branch could cover < 1271019333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271019334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1271019335 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271019339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what needs answering is: < 1271019345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What coordinates does the new branch have? < 1271019349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I.e. if your Leaf is immediately SE from (0,0), it's (0,0) to (2^32-1, 2^32-1) < 1271019355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we need to add a node in this branch we create < 1271019357 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Er, (1,1) I guess but whatever. < 1271019358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What of its coordinates? < 1271019369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so any luck with gaining on those 0.3 faster of cfunge? < 1271019371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But what do you mean by two? < 1271019380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Two? < 1271019381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All pages are 64x64; all branches merely have one coordinate pair. < 1271019385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*by "to"? < 1271019393 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1271019397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean that that's the area covered by that branch < 1271019406 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The tree root covers the whole space from -2^32 to 2^32-1 < 1271019411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it won't run life.bf right now, because I haven't cleaned up the old manual x86(-64) codegen; I've insted written a new one that uses LLVM's JIT engine, but it's a bit incomplete right now. < 1271019419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And the node SE from that covers 1 to 2^32-1 < 1271019419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But that's the entirety of fungespaec. < 1271019422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fungespace < 1271019426 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, and that's what your tree can store. < 1271019439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if SE has half, and another has half, what of the other two? < 1271019446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, cool. How much slower is it using the LLVM framework instead of putting the machine code in the buffer directly? < 1271019448 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It doesn't have half, it has a quarter. < 1271019461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: NW has -2^32 to 0, for example. < 1271019469 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (I'm simplifying and saying only one coordinate.) < 1271019471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What about NE/SW? < 1271019475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is alise having problems understanding a quadtree? :D < 1271019477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see. < 1271019492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: considering Deewiant himself just said he wasn't sure what the algorithm was... < 1271019493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't benchmarked that; as long as it doesn't end up in a worst-case recompile-everything-constantly, the savings by LLVM's optimilizations are hopefully going to be more than the one-time compilation cost. < 1271019494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION implemented quadtrees before. Not too hard. < 1271019518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1271019519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still not clever enough to realize how to snip up traces if you have, say, two sections of code that keep constantly "self-modifying" the other one. < 1271019542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that would require heuristics < 1271019553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, I understand the concept, but I'm not seeing the algorithm right now. :-P < 1271019568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: JIT is all about heuristics. < 1271019570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Need file-reading now. < 1271019584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1271019585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not many programs do that, I think. The older one had some sort of hard "if you p on top of a traced and compiled code, mark the spot so that it won't be traced over later on" rule, but that might not be quite optimal either. < 1271019599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, simple: mmap() the file, then loop through that < 1271019606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Meh. < 1271019637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mmap() because if you use fgets() handling \r\n split between two "chunks" you read in is quite annoying < 1271019651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for fread() or any other similar call obviously < 1271019659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use fgetc() but who wants to do that? < 1271019661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just going to be going char by char, then. :P < 1271019679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "meh"; I just spent over three hours trying to extract several years of accumulated crap from the wheels of this chair -- with scissors, tweezers and different types of pliers -- before finally realizing that the wheels are detachable, and you can just buy new ones for less-than-three euros from the local hardware store-alike. < 1271019682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you don't aim at beating ccbi and cfunge performance? Huh? < 1271019697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Reading. In. A. File. < 1271019720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am *reading in an 80x25 file*. Performance is moot. < 1271019757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, true. Just make a 25*80+1 buffer for fread < 1271019759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fread() < 1271019762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1271019779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fread() needs 25*80+2*25 to handle \r\n < 1271019782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1271019816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, btw you know you should discard anything wider than 80 columns then? < 1271019826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is how mycology befunge93 part works < 1271019837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that anything outside it is discarded < 1271020021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Fix Quantum decompressor < 1271020093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_compression < 1271020123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guessed it was something like that, but it's still funny < 1271020139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271020179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's a pretty bizarre technology to be using, but I suppose it makes sense in a virus scanner < 1271020188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case someone tries to trick people into decompressing a malicious .CAB file < 1271020243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Each of these require at least a 386 CPU to run" < 1271020246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehrrm < 1271020253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :riiight < 1271020504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if there's more than one, where on earth are you going to find a dual-core 386? < 1271020573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, :D < 1271020598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, were there ever SMP 386? < 1271020610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, I know there were SMP Pentium < 1271020615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(original ones even iirc?) < 1271020620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but it seems unlikely < 1271020634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cat program on the esolang wiki... Seems wrong. < 1271020685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "wrong" I of course mean "jumps off into nothingness with glee". < 1271020704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wraparound. < 1271020722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh. < 1271020730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darnit, gotta futz with step then. < 1271020733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge doesn't really have nothingness < 1271020755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge the anti-zen language < 1271020773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In -98 you can run into infinite loops like that < 1271020790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess an empty file in -93 does the job as well :-P < 1271020848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What value should EOF be? < 1271020853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? < 1271020856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what situation? < 1271020864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For ~ < 1271020865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: is an annihilator program possible in -93? < 1271020871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ should reflect < 1271020875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Annihilator? < 1271020877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? < 1271020878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ais523: NT 3.1 supports multiprocesspr 386 systems, so presumably there were some. No other versions of Windows apparently do, so maybe not that many. < 1271020881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: one that deletes its entire source code < 1271020885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271020887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you mean ~ should reflect on eof? < 1271020892 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think so. < 1271020896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271020897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by p'ing a space onto every cell of the playfield < 1271020897 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Shouldn't it? < 1271020898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on EOF < 1271020900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not EOL < 1271020901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread < 1271020902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :-P < 1271020906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And miswrote? ;-P < 1271020909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What does "reflect" mean? < 1271020911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, correct ~ should reflect on EOF < 1271020917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Reverse the direction of the instruction pointer < 1271020918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, thinko (like typo) < 1271020919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... you might be able to do it by putting a hilariously large number of coordinates on the stack, then repeatedly running over a column of p's < 1271020920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: DEFINE REFLECT. < 1271020927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, delta is mirrored < 1271020935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so it bounced back from where it came < 1271020944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm. < 1271020946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the p's themselves are the last thing to be deleted < 1271020952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html Where is that in here? < 1271020969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, with befunge98 and it's arbitrary delta you basically multiply dx and dy with -1 < 1271020977 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Presumably nowhere. -93 is a bit underspecified. < 1271020980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh, 93, no clue < 1271020993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So in 93, knock yourself out with UB or do what everybody else does and reflect. :-) < 1271020993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Mmkay. < 1271021007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go reflect then. < 1271021017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOORING < 1271021048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in 93, pushing -1 isn't completely uncommon < 1271021058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is boring? < 1271021063 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It isn't? Darn. < 1271021079 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured reflection was fairly much the norm there too. < 1271021080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, anagolf's b93 interpreter seems to push -1 < 1271021081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271021083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want cat to work. :( < 1271021089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, just as an example < 1271021091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: reflecting < 1271021103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh you need different cat for push -1 and reflect < 1271021112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I've just reverted vandalism by a logged-in user on Esolang < 1271021113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflecting one is one char shorter < 1271021124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, logged in spam happens < 1271021125 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That cat wants a negative one for EOF, it seems. < 1271021131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't reflect. Meh. < 1271021134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Mmm. < 1271021135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it may be a human rather than a spambot, so I've given them a nice warning rather than an instant 24-year block < 1271021139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, make it an option < 1271021149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, because a lot more code assumes reflection < 1271021152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Where was the ask-on-/0 thing stated, do you remember? < 1271021155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 out of 10 vampires agree: don't reflect < 1271021159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in befunge93 < 1271021174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for 98 it is "push zero < 1271021176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1271021177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But that means argument handling! < 1271021181 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In the -98 spec. < 1271021183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and? < 1271021187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, getopt() is nice < 1271021196 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.100 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271021201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the cat program I'm using seems to not end on EOF. :P < 1271021211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just output... EOF... < 1271021221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1271021223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure... Why. < 1271021226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a bug. < 1271021228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, link to it? < 1271021234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can tell you if it should do that < 1271021244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~:1+!#@_, < 1271021244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it is an interpreter bug < 1271021247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271021249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see < 1271021254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But it's mentioned there as a fact, as though it's common knowledge; I just didn't see it in the 93 spec. < 1271021255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+!? < 1271021274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It wants negative one for EOF. < 1271021289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but add 1 logical not won't do that will it? < 1271021292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well yes, I don't know about that. < 1271021305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It will make the _ go left if it was EOF, thus hitting the @. < 1271021305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it will < 1271021308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271021320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so indeed it shouldn't output EOF < 1271021335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing that indicates your _ is flawed. Or your # is *very* flawed < 1271021346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or your @ is extremely flawed) < 1271021356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you cat an empty file it will output EOF. < 1271021365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or no, it won't. < 1271021367 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1271021394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, will you do befunge98 or will you stay at 93? < 1271021433 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/serprex/Befunge/blob/master/marsh.c is the fast -93 one I was thinking of. < 1271021454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 93 ATM. < 1271021460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/JRWd < 1271021464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so no plans to do 98 later? < 1271021482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "#ifdef FUNGE" seems quite hilarious < 1271021488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. Maybe not. < 1271021496 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I and mooz have both written reasonably fast 93 interps too, though I doubt either of them are online anywhere so that doesn't much help. < 1271021510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. :-P < 1271021530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything *obviously* wrong in there? < 1271021561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :['+'] = &&add <-- is that C? < 1271021567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271021575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C, but yes. < 1271021576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Popping an empty stack doesn't seem worky? < 1271021577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the [] around an index like that? < 1271021585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ah. < 1271021586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1271021592 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a C99 thing. < 1271021602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm only used the .foo C99 thing < 1271021607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never the array index thingy < 1271021610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The labels as values aren't, though. < 1271021610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has both. < 1271021624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right, that's just a GNUism. < 1271021642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Anything *obviously* wrong in there? <-- no. But then nothing is obviously right either < 1271021646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is too confusing for it < 1271021671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also your ? ;-P < 1271021678 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271021681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you won't pass mycorand < 1271021694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Couldn't be assed to do use rand yet. :P < 1271021698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it runs until it gets two different random numbers iirc < 1271021711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It runs until ? has gone in every direction. < 1271021728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that even < 1271021733 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why does oprofile point me to wrong symbols :-/ < 1271021738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's confusing about it, though? < 1271021753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge or ccbi? < 1271021757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI < 1271021758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it never happened to me < 1271021764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My ff ("fast funge") used the gcc computed goto too, but in addition I had (macro-expanded) four copies of the instruction set, for each possible direction, so that there was a single jump per instruction. That deewiant-link seems to incur a call-through-pointer for movement every op. < 1271021766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess some D weirdness < 1271021773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :callgrind works fine. < 1271021777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only logic at all is in step. < 1271021780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but remember it is low overhead in kernel based < 1271021790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Doesn't help me if it gives me wrong results. < 1271021803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, while callgrind basically emulates it in a virtual machine of it's own iirc < 1271021807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like all of valgrind does < 1271021821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; and one reports things right, the other wrong. < 1271021836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one is based on reality and both reported correctly for me < 1271021850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but like your memory graph it might miss some tiny bit < 1271021861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not reality when it's telling me about functions that are never called in the whole execution. < 1271021872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that should not happen < 1271021875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never happened to me < 1271021885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No kidding it probably "should not" happen, but it does. :-P < 1271021900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what could happen is that it misses a tiny bit due to it being between sampling interval iirc < 1271021906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it uses performance counters of the CPU < 1271021919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's not very important. < 1271021936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I can't help you since I have never seen it < 1271021956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try debugging oprofile but I expect that to be a nightmare < 1271021972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe two functions share a common tail? Does LLVM do that kind of size optimisation? < 1271021993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might. < 1271022014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that could screw up something that isn't observing the calls, but looks at the program counter value and such < 1271022169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does that program pass mycology's b93 section? < 1271022203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, I'd got used to the speed of oprofile. :-P < 1271022222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes callgrind is much slower and may not reflect a real computer < 1271022234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example modern computers have better hardware prefetch than it < 1271022235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271022253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like it either doesn't emulate hw prefetch or it emulates a perfect one < 1271022258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oprofile shows the reality < 1271022266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well except for your symbol name issue < 1271022274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, so it actually doesn't show the reality. :-P < 1271022281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it does for me though < 1271022291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well good for you. < 1271022297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I blame your system/D + LLVM/other < 1271022300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick the one your prefer < 1271022308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need a scapegoat. < 1271022331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh should have told me before I went to all that trouble writing them down :P < 1271022354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yes what you really need is an escapegoat. < 1271022421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lemme check. < 1271022428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you handle wrapping around to the minus side correctly? < 1271022436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't think so < 1271022441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in going < over the edge < 1271022443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Aw, that marsh.c doesn't even check for stack underflow and return 0; it just crashes in that case. < 1271022450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's a cheaty way to be fast. :p < 1271022452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, your code seems to only work for going > over the edge < 1271022468 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There's a marshsafe.c, maybe that one does? < 1271022476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds likely. < 1271022498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the put code in the safe one seems longer < 1271022506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it checks p is within bounds < 1271022546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also does check for /0 < 1271022583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm iirc ppc's integer division gives you zero on division by zero < 1271022611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : FILE*rand=fopen("/dev/urandom","r"); <- heh < 1271022667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm having difficulties measuring the speed of marshsafe.c either, because it fails to run life.bf, sort.bf or serp.bf on my system. Curious. < 1271022683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's just broken. :-P < 1271022691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, segfault? < 1271022776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: serp.bf prints out a few (399?) dots, then seems to be stuck; sort.bf accepts an input line and then seems to be stuck; life.bf outputs "DFHJLþN" and "68:<>" and " @" repeatedly. < 1271022794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh at that last one < 1271022805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't have serp or sort here < 1271022806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :links? < 1271022818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sort in befunge93 would be very limited < 1271022855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sorts the letters of one word. < 1271022861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At http://quadium.net/funge/downloads/bef93src/ < 1271022862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how long? < 1271022902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Probably not very. < 1271022976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I appear to be having issues with reflection. < 1271022996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A real befunge would translate the whole program to an array of pointers to code. < 1271022997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ip.dx *= -1; ip.dy *= -1; < 1271022999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work < 1271023005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with specialised jumps for each direction) < 1271023008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adapt it for you variable names < 1271023026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungespace_vector_x *= -1; < 1271023028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungespace_vector_y *= -1; < 1271023029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seem < 1271023031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems* < 1271023038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you reflect on unknown right? < 1271023049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Trying to now. < 1271023056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a Nexus One now. < 1271023060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Badly. < 1271023061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minor issue -- this... Doesn't seem to be doing that right. < 1271023071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is admittedly a very non-scientific benchmark, but: http://pastebin.com/nfmUUEwq < 1271023085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ff? < 1271023096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The thing I mentioned a moment ago. < 1271023097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fast funge, says fizzie. < 1271023102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait you can't hear >:) < 1271023103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : My ff ("fast funge") used the gcc computed goto too, but in addition I had (macro-expanded) four copies of the instruction set, for each possible direction, so that there was a single jump per instruction. That deewiant-link seems to incur a call-through-pointer for movement every op. < 1271023105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's marshsafe? < 1271023105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one. < 1271023109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271023111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: deewiant's github link < 1271023115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271023117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, several screens ago < 1271023130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you're being so noisy. < 1271023131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That github link is on the esolangs.org Befunge page. < 1271023147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I usually talk a lot < 1271023161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That was the plural, whole-channel "you", though. < 1271023167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1271023181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, could have been made clearer with "you all" or such < 1271023221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly ff's a bit non-compliant in the sense that the playfield is 256x256 bytes; I do wrapping by unsigned-char overflow. < 1271023228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1271023241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you see what I said about going over the < edge? < 1271023248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that it seemed broken in your program < 1271023250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: in befunge-93, without writing outside the playfield (which is IIRC undefined), is there any way to tell? < 1271023267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also wth: < 1271023270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :306 fungespace_x += fungespace_vector_x; < 1271023271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :307 fungespace_x %= 25; < 1271023271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :308 fungespace_y += fungespace_vector_y; < 1271023271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :309 fungespace_y %= 80; < 1271023277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I think you need to swap those < 1271023281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80 and 25 < 1271023288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your program is the wrong way around < 1271023291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the definitions of x and y, surely? < 1271023297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well true < 1271023306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Mhm, maybe not. Though I don't ignore lines longer than 80 chars in the source file; I think that was specified there. < 1271023321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and yes it does the wrong thing when you hit -1 < 1271023362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: in befunge-93, without writing outside the playfield (which is IIRC undefined), is there any way to tell? <-- is it explicitly undefined or just undefined? < 1271023366 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If it's not undefined, there is a way to tell. < 1271023387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, that's the issue. < 1271023390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no there isn't < 1271023407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes there is; put an @ at 255,0 and wrap around. < 1271023411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well, depends on what it's defined /to/ < 1271023415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not if it is implementation defined < 1271023417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1271023419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a third option < 1271023448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some interpreted could implement that as 255%80,0%25 < 1271023455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreter* < 1271023479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, idea: befunge-98 self interpreter < 1271023483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it has been done < 1271023490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowdown.b98. < 1271023497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not a true self interpreter < 1271023501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it uses the host < 1271023517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it's like calling eval() < 1271023521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall mooz's interp was around the same speed with a proper 80x25 playfield. IIRC, he used a 82x27-sized physical playfield, and put custom "jump the proper amount left/right/up/down" instructions on the borders. (The instructions of course checked the IP position and acted as nops when "executed" on the playfield.) < 1271023524 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if Silverlight works on Nexus One's browser < 1271023552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder how underload.b98 manages to slow down when I preallocate an appropriately-sized box for the stack. < 1271023564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, he could use 4 custom ones so it didn't need to check that < 1271023575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no. < 1271023582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1271023584 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1271023584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: flash will, though, when the new version is out; but why would you want to? < 1271023585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: He did use 4 customs ones, but you do need to check that, because someone could put the instruction in the middle of the program. < 1271023592 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Robozzle < 1271023593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laggy, shitty, battery-draining < 1271023594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, no one uses that anyway? < 1271023600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, there is a js version iirc < 1271023601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: bug him to make a paid android app < 1271023619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh true < 1271023630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, he could use out of band data < 1271023642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like a 34 bit word < 1271023650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that is best left to VHDL people < 1271023665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other which can do non-standard word width < 1271023672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/which/who/ < 1271023792 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad's asking me to think hard about this < 1271023795 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Befunge-93 docs don't seem to specify the space cell size, so you could store it as 32-bit, I suppose. < 1271023815 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He suggested thinking about a no-contract iPhone, due to the number of apps. He also suggested getting a small laptop < 1271023826 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I can't get both a better computer and a smartphone < 1271023936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, you can use control-return to open links in a new tab using the keyboard in Firefox < 1271023963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice when you guess a keyboard shortcut and it works < 1271023967 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to start the Android emulator < 1271024030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or 16-bit < 1271024046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On modern machines, 16-bit tends to be a bad idea. < 1271024077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't 16-bit get emulated in microcode? < 1271024085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. I seem to get no output from mycology. < 1271024187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. It's an issue in the file loading. < 1271024244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo, I now segfault. < 1271024305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x00007ffff7ad99b5 in getc () from /lib/libc.so.6 < 1271024312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell am I segfaulting there? < 1271024319 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buffer overrun. < 1271024321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :passing it a NULL file pointer < 1271024338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getc's a macro, it probably doesn't sanity-check its input < 1271024348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't call getc. < 1271024350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a macro it can't be in the stack trace. < 1271024355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, good point < 1271024359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :112 int c = fgetc(f); < 1271024363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is even more bizarre given that the function version's called fgetc < 1271024365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the line it's called from. < 1271024368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok < 1271024385 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the function fgetc shows as getc in stack traces? < 1271024390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271024392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why use fgetc ever, except to take its address? < 1271024409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Probably no good reason. < 1271024444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that still confuses me. < 1271024459 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if fgetc has sanity checks? < 1271024469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"f" is still a perfectly valid FILE*. < 1271024484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, it's pointing to a char, not to a file < 1271024489 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come fax isn't here? < 1271024492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: At least my /lib/libc.so.6 has the symbols getc and fgetc with the identical address. < 1271024502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In this sort of situation gdb would probably just pick the first one. < 1271024506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271024516 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to access the bus scheduling stuff via the emulator < 1271024527 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see schedules for the train, but no bus stuff GRRR < 1271024530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: getc takes a file? < 1271024536 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F U Usablenet Mobile < 1271024540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, because he is not currently in this channel < 1271024542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1271024542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why < 1271024543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1271024544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getchar that doesn't < 1271024550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1271024558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or getch doesn't either, but it's curses/DOS < 1271024562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than standard C < 1271024569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. I have no clue how this is segfaulting. < 1271024587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Step up in gdb, print out "f" just in case? < 1271024597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fizzie said and also link to the file < 1271024599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you ever call setvbuf or an abbreviation for it on f? < 1271024602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also try valgrind < 1271024604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm examining f's buffer right now. < 1271024604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be that something's happened to the buffer < 1271024616 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Android browser does NOT seem to support PDF < 1271024627 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pokes alise. You said that iPhone supports PDFs? < 1271024629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1271024641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, get a computer if you want one. Get a phone if you want a phone < 1271024645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually very, very curious why I'm not getting anything *else* from gdb. < 1271024646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it's not normally web browsers that support PDFs, but plugins < 1271024657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, also surely you can install a pdf reader in it? < 1271024657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *have* full debugging info and source code for my libc. < 1271024665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, exception: konqueror ? < 1271024666 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I'm looking into that < 1271024666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or separate programs < 1271024668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1271024674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: arguably konqueror isn't a web browser < 1271024675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does it as kpdf_kpart or such < 1271024681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1271024681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a superset of a web browser < 1271024686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271024688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I really don't know *anything* about the iDevices, but an iPod Touchy friend did have a PDF reader on his thing. < 1271024695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *should* be able to actually debug libc. < 1271024696 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1271024714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: just because you have debugging libc doesn't mean the program's linked against it < 1271024716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Anyway, doesn't the saying go "there's an app for that". < 1271024720 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really need the maps though. I need the schedule. And the MTA's mobile site doesn't have a link to the bus schedule < 1271024725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might need to set an env variable to tell it to link that version of libc < 1271024737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Every single binary on my system is splitdebug. < 1271024749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yes iphone can read pdfs < 1271024753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't *have* non-debugging versions. < 1271024782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, I shouldn't. And yet, here's libc. Without debugging info. < 1271024785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: surely, just the executable binaries? < 1271024797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying that, say, your compressed tarballs are debugging versions too? < 1271024798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://andpdf.sourceforge.net/ gross but < 1271024799 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That.. may push my hand to an iPhone < 1271024808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No. < 1271024816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am the biggest iPhone evangelist on the planet, I love the things, but no. < 1271024820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a really bad reason to get an iPhone < 1271024824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple have finally stepped too far: buying one is simply immoral now. < 1271024829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, the executable ones. < 1271024830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271024833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it seems unlikely that you're the biggest iPhone evangelist on the planet < 1271024834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: just because you have debugging libc doesn't mean the program's linked against it <-- split debug info? < 1271024840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case ais523 doesn't know: apple have amended the ToS; all applications have to be ORIGINALLY written in objective-c now) < 1271024842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or c/c++) < 1271024842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you /seen/ some of the Apple evangelists on the Internet < 1271024846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no third-party languages or runtime) < 1271024852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hmm, interesting < 1271024854 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, will Android 1.5 programs work on 2.1? < 1271024858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting and evil. < 1271024859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've banned interpreted languages forever < 1271024864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Probably, but look at that screenshot; it's hideous. < 1271024867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell? < 1271024877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, this is to get rid of the actionscript -> obj-c compiler someone wrote < 1271024877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://androidforums.com/support/1198-pdf-android-work-around.html lol export to jpeg < 1271024880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a .debug file for everything *but* libc. < 1271024883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android Portal MultiReader: Free Word viewer / PDF reader for T ... < 1271024889 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The N900 built-in PDF reader isn't quite that horrible-looking, but it's not very pretty either. I think there's some evince ports or whatever in the repositories, though. < 1271024896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://bsegonnes.free.fr/multireader/en_multireader.html < 1271024909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem to do "rich" pdf stuff but... < 1271024914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay evince < 1271024918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you probably don't want to < 1271024927 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll avoid telling my dad that iPhone has PDF capabilities < 1271024931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ? < 1271024936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of the exploit in the PDF spec people found recently < 1271024937 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's currently under the impression that it simply can't be done < 1271024938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean even basic formatting, maybe I'm wrong though < 1271024942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271024949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: heh < 1271024956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's kind of silly that a program has to be vulnerable in order to comply with the letter of the sepc < 1271024959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spec < 1271024962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I take it your dad has no actual reason to believe himself to be competent in tech matters? < 1271024975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: My favourite seen-in-the-maemo.org-repository so far: someone's put the whole texlive TeX distribution in there. When you desperately have to compile some LaTeX text and all you have is your phone! < 1271024986 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's.. somewhat competent. Competent enough to, say, know how to set a password in BIOS < 1271024993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's barely competent :P < 1271024993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turned out that there'd been a raging flamewar on KDE internal dev lists about it, people wanting to implement the feature vs. people saying it was a security bug < 1271025009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it could be useful for academics, if someone sends you a .tex (say by email), nad you want to read it < 1271025010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and < 1271025011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Oh yeah, what fizzie said, look at the N900 < 1271025013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a very good touchscreen < 1271025018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually /happened/ to me, although I wasn't on a phone at the time < 1271025019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it almost certainly does pdf :P < 1271025029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the source is decent for editing, but bad for reading < 1271025038 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many apps are available for the N900? < 1271025044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: less than android < 1271025061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: why do you need pdf? < 1271025063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Academic papers? < 1271025066 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, bus schedules < 1271025069 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, there's as many apps as there are in Debian, if you want to be technical about it... < 1271025084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Presumably they don't change so often? < 1271025092 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, correc < 1271025092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since there's a "install a Debian in a ext2 filesystem image" app in the official repository.) < 1271025097 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1271025105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fizzie is right Sgeo_; technically maemo can run most Gtk applications. < 1271025107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really badly, though. < 1271025113 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do change every few months, actually. Rarely the ones I use < 1271025115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: then just export them to pngs on your computer and put them on your android < 1271025129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, I'm a bit reluctant to recommend N900; I personally like it a lot, but my likes and dislikes are probably a bit idiosyncratic. < 1271025153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I like this, therefore most people probably dislike it"? < 1271025173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think, therefore statistically I'm more likely to be than if I did think. < 1271025173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, hasn't maemo merged with moblin nowadays? < 1271025177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perhaps more like "I like this, but it probably has not much correlation with whether other people like it or not". < 1271025182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably nowadays you need to look at the capabilities of meego < 1271025182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidence: there are more existing things that don't think than things that think. < 1271025205 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Brandwise, perhaps, in the sense that Nokia's going that way; I am a bit unsure that the maemo community as a whole (such as it is) will swing that way. < 1271025208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cognition is actually evidence /against/ you existing :-) < 1271025210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : this reminds me of the exploit in the PDF spec people found recently <-- ? < 1271025221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: My favourite seen-in-the-maemo.org-repository so far: someone's put the whole texlive TeX distribution in there. When you desperately have to compile some LaTeX text and all you have is your phone! <-- :DDD < 1271025225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, you can specify attachments and executables that should open them < 1271025225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And anyway the current MeeGo release on the N900 doesn't support such things like the GUI. (You get a terminal and that's it.) < 1271025245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make the PDF file a polyglot PDF/executable for target platform, and open it with itself < 1271025249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oops < 1271025259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be an exploit even without that, just a harder one to exploit < 1271025265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, should definitely not be implemented < 1271025271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1271025307 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what happens when I need a schedule for a bus I didn't plan on taking? < 1271025311 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has happened < 1271025338 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installed an alternative .. market app? app app? on the emulator < 1271025339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Bother your transportation company to put their schedules in the web in a sensible format? It's 2010, for foo's sake! < 1271025401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, what happens when I need a schedule for a bus I didn't plan on taking? <-- happens to me too < 1271025403 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, you could put a pdf-to-png cgi script on some web-host and use that to open PDFs. < 1271025411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I go to their website and read the html page < 1271025421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you search first < 1271025424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: where's the download link for the emulator? < 1271025426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do it from the phone < 1271025431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to opera mini being what it is < 1271025436 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, somewhere on http://developer.android.com/ < 1271025437 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use google's PDF "preview" thing with arbitrary PDF urls?-) < 1271025450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no idea. Try it? < 1271025453 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://developer.android.com/sdk/index.html < 1271025460 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Requires a bit of fiddling < 1271025537 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees something about a standalone emulator, but that's 1.5 < 1271025539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: If you don't mind using your Google account, presumably you can use http://docs.google.com/viewer with any suitably web-browsing-enabled device to open arbitrary PDF URLs. < 1271025563 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, < 1271025564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271025595 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries MultiReader < 1271025637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What fizzie said is probably the best idea. < 1271025644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google will almost certainly optimise for Google shit working perfectly. < 1271025649 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Powerpoint viewer seems like it would be useful too. In one of my classes, the professor lets students use their laptops to look at the slides < 1271025663 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the google-docs viewer does Powerpoint too. < 1271025688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well, buy a laptop :P < 1271025690 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY does MutiReader want access to my owner data and phone data < 1271025734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rebuilds glibc with USE=debug, hopes that beats it into submission < 1271025739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEXY PURPOSES < 1271025753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since you've sort-of been following The Competition; turns out I had somehow managed to not update tournament.jar (the version of the framework used by the tournament scripts) with the newest version, so there was one fixed bug (Move.getPlayer() returned null instead of Side.RED or Side.BLUE for "pass" moves) still there; one of the participating bots crashed every match it participated in on its first turn because of that. < 1271025783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: do you really need eclipse to install android emulator? < 1271025795 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1271025802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I demand to see another .debug file in /usr/lib/debug/lib64/, and a bunch of source in /usr/src/debug/sys-libs/glibc. < 1271025807 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's better than the Windows you need to install a Symbian emulator. :p < 1271025810 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor do you need to do command-line stuff < 1271025812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: how did you download it then? < 1271025829 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the .zip, there's a utility called SDK Setup < 1271025839 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[erm, on Windows, not sure about other OSes] < 1271025867 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did need to download some packages using that utility, I probably installed stuff that wasn't needed < 1271025872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which zip? :P < 1271025876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having trouble finding the download < 1271025890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you will have to rerun those affected by it then < 1271025901 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://developer.android.com/sdk/index.html < 1271025905 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Download the Android SDK" < 1271025934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that would work. :P < 1271025995 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. According to bit of bash-oneliners invoking "javap", ten (out of 45) bots referred the Move.getPlayer method. I'm currently rerunning the (~700 out of 1980) matches where either the blue or red player was one of those ten. < 1271026023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271026035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even those that didn't crash, because possibly some of them didn't try to "dereference" the returned Side, just compared it to something.) < 1271026071 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels awkward that alise needs my help, rather than the other way around < 1271026258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to get 267MB of archives. < 1271026261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget Eclipse, then. < 1271026290 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Eclipse has nothing to do with anything < 1271026297 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're trying to practise developing < 1271026376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1271026383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1271026400 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can live with the viewer thing < 1271026403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I need the jdk? < 1271026408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not, but I bet I need the JRE. < 1271026413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not, though. < 1271026418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the JDK is nice to have < 1271026420 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just need what's in the .. yeah, you do kind of need Java stuff < 1271026424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, maybe more so if you teach Java for a living < 1271026545 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just seems inconvenient to go to the viewer from links on the full version of the MTA's site < 1271026551 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The JDK is sometimes nice to have even if you don't write Java; at least on the Ubuntu, openjdk-6-jre only has a plugin-appletviewer, the standalone "appletviewer" command is only in openjdk-6-jdk. < 1271026563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the same for the "jar" command-line tool for peeking inside .jar files. < 1271026587 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't .jar files just .zip files or something, or am I misremembering, or is that old information < 1271026596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are, so that's a minor thing. < 1271026598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are. < 1271026600 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff keeps freezing in the emulator :/ < 1271026615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still write "jar xvf file.jar" when trying to extract one, by force of habit. < 1271026628 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real phone better not be as badly behaved as this < 1271026634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It feels awkward that alise needs my help, rather than the other way around <-- relish the feeling while it lasts < 1271026642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're zipfiles with a few special files in at known locations < 1271026661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, jar xvf? < 1271026679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes? < 1271026690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does that work? < 1271026695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the syntax. < 1271026699 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Extract jar file < 1271026699 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jar x[vf] [jarfile] [inputfiles] [-Joption] < 1271026703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can you use it for normal zip? < 1271026725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I always need to check docs of zip when I want to unpack a zip < 1271026732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently you can. < 1271026744 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least "jar tf bleh.zip" for a completely ordinary .zip seems to list files. < 1271026749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't try extracting anything. < 1271026770 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unzip foo.zip" < 1271026782 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Admittedly it's not a very complicated syntax. :p < 1271026799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Though "unzip -l foo.zip" -- if you want to see the contents first -- is not *so* simple to remember. < 1271026802 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: BSD? < 1271026811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh fleh < 1271026812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: unzip -t works as well, no? < 1271026813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cancel that. < 1271026815 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread. < 1271026827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It might; -l is the only thing I remember. :p < 1271026837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's still the "-" there. < 1271026851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the "-" is such a rare thing that you might forget about it. < 1271026864 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does THIS document viewer also feel a need to read my "phone state and identity"? < 1271026869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Apparently -t also calculates the CRC, which might be not what you want. < 1271026898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is short for "test" after all. < 1271026901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, who knows < 1271026905 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's asking for Internet access. I swear, if this thing decides it can only read local files, after I gave it Internet access, I'll scream < 1271026910 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then agian, it is a Trial < 1271026986 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's storing stuff to ensure against trying to keep it in the phone area < 1271026987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4% [3 sun-java6-jre 2153087/6,421kB 33%] < 1271026989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keeps freezing on this < 1271026992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you suuuure i need java < 1271027003 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you can try without and see what happens < 1271027009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it wants java < 1271027010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1271027013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why won't it just download < 1271027015 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does keep popping up console windows .. oh < 1271027024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.jar files are just .zip files with few special files; .war files are just .jar files with a few more extra files; unfortunately, .ear files are just .jar files with different magic files, not an add-on to .war files. I was hoping for a longer chain. < 1271027032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4% [4 sun-java6-jre 2324862/6,421kB 36%] 912B/s 15h 24min 21s < 1271027036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh it improved now < 1271027039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now only 20 minutes to go < 1271027041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now 9 < 1271027050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: MAH EAR FILE < 1271027054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for filing my ears < 1271027061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is the next .nail < 1271027111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: fileext says for .nail: "Primary association: Unknown Apple II File". That's probably no longer related. < 1271027217 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, it wants to open something ON THE PHONE! AND I GAVE YOU INTERNET ACCESS, YOU PIECE OF SHIST < 1271027263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shist. < 1271027321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shist" is this enemy type in Chrono Trigger. < 1271027327 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271027364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chronotrigger/rubble_icon.PNG -- there, that's a Shist. < 1271027367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you know! < 1271027421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It might be a Rubble too... the difference's just in the palette.) < 1271027642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hee, there's now chromium (v. 5.0.369.2-maemo1) in the extras-devel maemo repo. I wonder if it's any good at all; probably not. < 1271027666 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271027796 0 :Oranjer1!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-0-216.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271027889 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271027998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/chronotrigger/rubble_icon.PNG -- there, that's a Shist. <-- aargh < 1271028009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had massive HP didn't they? < 1271028016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, just massive evasion. < 1271028030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe there were different coloured ones? < 1271028032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well < 1271028033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And the "lock all" ability, which meant you could only use phyiscal attacks. < 1271028049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, Rubble's the grey one. I guess Shists had more HP than Rubbles, yes. < 1271028056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271028077 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, OfficeSuite's taking forever < 1271028094 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also you got a lot of those... uh, what were they? APs? The things that you need to collect to enable different techs; if you managed to beat one. It's just that they ran away after a while, and with the maximum evasion, you usually just missed. < 1271028124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true but weren't APs caped? < 1271028128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And (despite a single exception) they didn't reappear. Though you could use that single exception to get access to pretty much all the techs. < 1271028130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capped* < 1271028167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I remember I stopped getting tech points at some point < 1271028173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I had the majority of techs < 1271028173 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned the iPhone PDF thing to my dad. He said that he knew it could do it, but it looks like crap < 1271028184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: tell him he's wrong < 1271028185 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as bad as this, though < 1271028188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read PDFs on my iphone regularly < 1271028193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's beautifully antialiased and rendered perfectly < 1271028198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly the same as on os x < 1271028199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, so that is going to decide it? < 1271028200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exact same engine < 1271028208 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, not if I have any say < 1271028216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, can't you search for time tables without pdf < 1271028234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"looks like crap" may just mean "screen too small" < 1271028243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with nontechnical people, it's hard to know < 1271028288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: just get a nexus one < 1271028295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as someone who's used an iphone extensively, the nexus one looks awesome < 1271028297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271028300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think there's a cap, no. As long as you can still learn new techs, you should be getting APs. But you can have unlearned dual or triple techs and not get APs towards those unless you have all participants in the party, perhaps. < 1271028318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: At least I distinctly remember learning Luminaire on the single reappearing Rubble, after a long and boring while. < 1271028347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1271028387 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/S6pDQ.png < 1271028390 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (The one that does reappear is on Mt. Woe, and there's a boring battle or two on the way to the rubble from the nearest region-border you need to walk to-and-back to make it reappear.) < 1271028440 0 :Oranjer1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Oranjer < 1271028464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1271028512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: linus torvalds likes the nexus one < 1271028516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2010/02/happy-camper.html < 1271028528 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't he also a KDE fan? < 1271028548 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Well, I shouldn't dis KDE. It's just Kubuntu I've had troubles with, really] < 1271028636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, actually. < 1271028644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's decided that KDE 4 sucks so much that GNOME is better. < 1271028647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271028659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: don't worry, it's fair to hate Kubuntu's packaging of KDE < 1271028664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IIRC, and IME, is really bad < 1271028688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Besides, dammit, the Nexus One has a 1 gigahertz processor. < 1271028697 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's the packaging, but it was always crashy for me < 1271028697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 barely even has a gigahertz processor on his laptop XD < 1271028731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Nexus One devices have an unlockable bootloader (% fastboot oem unlock), which, once unlocked will allow you to reflash the boot partition (kernel + ramdisk), system partition, etc. < 1271028738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything i've read confirms that getting root is "official" < 1271028758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, you just install a package that lets you become root < 1271028762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271028770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just hold down the trackball at boot < 1271028772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, am I thinking of a different platform? < 1271028773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271028774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type in fastboot oem unlock < 1271028780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can just shazam, become root < 1271028795 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, would that allow bypassing pattern lock? < 1271028796 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1271028819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the linuxy mobiles, you install a package that lets you become root, it doesn't have sudo/su by default < 1271028836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Who would know how to? < 1271028847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Dude, if your phone is stolen, and the person who stole it is an expert, < 1271028848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are fucked. < 1271028851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no experts steal phones. < 1271028875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://androidandme.com/2010/01/hacks/video-how-to-unlock-and-root-a-nexus-one/ ;; admittedly you have to do some rom stuff to get root < 1271028931 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1271028988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1271028997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does the package manager work then? < 1271029006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably suid < 1271029017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something equivalent < 1271029044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1271029073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worrying over total linux security correctness in a phone produces openmoko < 1271029087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you know anything about openmoko you'll know that's an insult < 1271029087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Linux systems at university run updates as root during the boot process < 1271029095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1271029099 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what's OpenMoko? < 1271029107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, apparently glibc has a misfeature in its buildsystem. < 1271029107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: a defunct company < 1271029109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--omitfp < 1271029115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: they used to make really shitty linux phones that barely worked < 1271029115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ouch < 1271029119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now they don't make mobiles any more < 1271029122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This causes it to build with -fomitfp -O99 -g0 < 1271029127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-O99? < 1271029132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271029137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-O100 ;; one faster < 1271029139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, that does not do anything. < 1271029140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.................. < 1271029153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-g0 disables debugging. < 1271029165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what -g0 does < 1271029169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fomitfp breaks debugging *only on x86*. < 1271029173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it OMITS FRAME POINTERS FUCK YEAH < 1271029177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, x86_64 too < 1271029178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought -O only went to 7 < 1271029178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it omits floating point operations < 1271029181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other platforms < 1271029181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1271029183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, to 3 < 1271029193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think it depends on details < 1271029195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure? I'm almost completely sure about this < 1271029196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86_64, all optimisation levels omit the frame pointer. < 1271029199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is the highest normal useful value < 1271029207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes okay so it always break debugging then? < 1271029215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think values higher than that have a special meaning on some platforms < 1271029217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. < 1271029220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271029232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh < 1271029235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only a small handful of architectures. < 1271029240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones? < 1271029270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember offhand, but I'm pretty sure I've seen -O7 before < 1271029280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme check. < 1271029281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: seriously i'm a huge iphone fan and looking up stuff about it makes me really really want a nexus one < 1271029325 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned the GPS Navigation to my dad. That was a bad thing, apparently. He's afraid I'll be listening to it, and not be paying attention. So I said that I won't use GPS nagivation < 1271029339 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[in the hypothetical future where I drive] < 1271029360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find anything other than "breaks on x86 and maybe elsewhere" < 1271029364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: with all due respect, your dad is fucking insane < 1271029384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Turn left." I see a turn to the left, WAIT i must pay attention... what's this? turn left? *turns right* < 1271029408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "maybe elsewhere" is enough for me < 1271029417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you know about hazard fixation? < 1271029418 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For the N900, it does have sudo by default, but it's not configured so that the "user" user can execute it. So you install the "gainroot" package so that you can start using sudo. (And the "app manager" installation thing is probably suid-root, yes.) < 1271029422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But apparently not x86_64. < 1271029438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try really really hard not to bump into something, you're more likely to bump into it than if you were just trying normally < 1271029441 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271029444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true < 1271029447 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O RoboZZle has an iPhone version < 1271029450 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grumbles < 1271029454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but listening to a gps doesn't exactly make you a dangerous driver < 1271029484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on if you concentrate on it rather than the road < 1271029514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :experience with MarioKart DS shows that driving entirely from a GPS-alike is unreliable even when it shows the location of other cars < 1271029555 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually, now that I look at it, the app-manager's not suid-root, but /etc/sudoers has a long list of "user ALL = NOPASSWD: foo", where foo is any sort of command you might need in the normal course of things; including stuff like "/etc/init.d/some-stuff stop" and so. < 1271029578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I take it that Sprint isn't even remotely an option? < 1271029610 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, unless Sprint has a contract-free phone < 1271029613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: seems a little dubious < 1271029615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was the HTC EVO 4G might be a consideration, although I don't think it's technically out yet. < 1271029618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, Sprint are a network. < 1271029621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there are thousands of root exploits in there < 1271029624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So of course their phones are contract or pay as you go. < 1271029658 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271029681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the HTC Desire. (a "cousin of the nexus one", apparently) < 1271029698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Desire has so much in common with the Nexus One that it feels like we've seen it all before. Spec-wise these two Android 2.1 phones have the same processor, 1,400mAh battery, 3.7-inch 800 x 480 AMOLED screen, 5-megapixel autofocus camera and 512MB of ROM, while externally they have very similar CMF (industrial shorthand for "color, material and finish") and weight (4.76 ounces). < 1271029705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 more megs of ram though :P < 1271029721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the htc sense ui though < 1271029725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is... prettier < 1271029728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/htcdesiretriohed03302010.jpg < 1271029782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just get the nexus one < 1271029784 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it that RoboZZle shouldn't be enough of a reason to push me towards iPhone < 1271029791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't :-) < 1271029791 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should not < 1271029798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am sure it will be ported to android some time < 1271029802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides < 1271029809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no amount of robozzle can make up for apple's immorality < 1271029814 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true < 1271029818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i defended the iphone dammit but the latest change is just unacceptable < 1271029829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, fanboy of fanboies of the iPhone, even I realise it's out of line < 1271029834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a device that can record his train of thought so that he can pick it up later < 1271029853 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've managed to even make me feel bad for working on clang < 1271029858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: food for thought: iPhone licensing allows GPLv2 software but not GPLv3 software < 1271029882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ah, don't let that bother you < 1271029897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :them supporting clang is a good thing no matter what else they do < 1271029897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah, I won't. It still makes me feel a little bad :( < 1271029908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you were in germany in hitler's reign < 1271029908 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang? < 1271029916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know < 1271029917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hitler had a program to feed young orphans -- even if they're jews, or gay, or whatever < 1271029926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was a wild success, feeding tons of people and making them all happylike < 1271029931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it be wrong to help this program? < 1271029931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: The LLVM C/C++/Obj-C compiler < 1271029938 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271029941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it's not like Apple is anywhere near as bad as hitler :P < 1271029943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello? am I still connected? < 1271029948 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, no < 1271029949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell happened there < 1271029952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, thanks < 1271029959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you'd have to be careful to make sure you were supporting the program rather than the people behind it < 1271029963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, http://www.internetpulse.net/ < 1271029968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seems to have been hit by < 1271029969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: under hitler? that would be dangerous < 1271029969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1271029970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sort of issue happens with aid programs in corrupt countries < 1271029977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone under hitler supported hitler :-) < 1271029978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The server at www.internettrafficreport.com is taking too long to respond." < 1271029980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still get that < 1271029981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: exactly < 1271029988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least you could do some good < 1271029992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half of internet is unreachable from here! < 1271029995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so < 1271030000 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happens < 1271030009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, depeering? < 1271030012 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1271030018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, perhaps < 1271030022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's happened to me < 1271030023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is getting somewhat better < 1271030025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, to turn that into a political statement./ < 1271030028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode timed out before < 1271030033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now it works again < 1271030037 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Half of the Internet is unreachable from here! < 1271030039 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo China! < 1271030044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it got rerouted < 1271030046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, har < 1271030060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, seems they routed around it < 1271030061 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnWJ29eNCbY RoboZZle's a ship now? < 1271030074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internet traffic report up again < 1271030079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271030087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a depeering, just a problem < 1271030097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole trick with depeerings is that half the time you /can't/ reroute around them < 1271030101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would cause too much political strife < 1271030103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tubes were clogged < 1271030113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, at least, people demanding loads of money < 1271030117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed it isn't completely down < 1271030134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I loathe to quote techcrunch: < 1271030135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the downside: all this hardware bling is an energy hog. The screen will self adjust brightness and Google is smart about turning down the processor when its not being used. But Ive found battery life to be woefully brief, even by iPhone standards. Officially the phone has up to 7 hours talk time, 250 hours standby, 5 hours of 3G Internet use, 7 hours of video playback and 20 hours of audio playback. Unofficially, I was able to kill the fully c < 1271030135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harged battery with 1.5 hours of continuous gameplay (Robo Defense) on the full-brightness screen. Be prepared to keep this phone near a charger at all times. You can easily view whats using the battery, though (the screen is 71% of my current usage), and then adjust the hardware or software usage to maximize battery life. < 1271030145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that full-brightness gameplay for 1.5 hours is unlikely. < 1271030168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I do that all the time on the DS < 1271030178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it rather depends on whether you bought your mobile for gaming or not < 1271030190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presumably, some people do that; or maybe they don't) < 1271030195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, yes < 1271030200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) < 1271030206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah :D < 1271030209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do you really need it on full brightness all the time? < 1271030220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) < 1271030224 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :147| (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) < 1271030254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wonderful quote < 1271030255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: with the original DS, there are only two brightness settings, full and off < 1271030271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't change them except on the startup screen, which you have to powercycle to reach < 1271030279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the original DS < 1271030282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& proud < 1271030292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: same, and the touchscreen still worsk < 1271030293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*works < 1271030296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto < 1271030299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't play on it all that much < 1271030306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it when I can't sleep < 1271030307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030309 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :52| Apple = Windows. < 1271030313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I use laptops for that P < 1271030314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1271030316 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/11/steve_jobs_defends_apples_changes_to_iphone_developer_agreement.html < 1271030323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so do I sometimes, but they tend to make me less inclined to sleep rather than more < 1271030327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although monday-to-friday i can't do /anything/ when i can't sleep < 1271030332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030334 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25|`quote < 1271030334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1271030338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice quote. < 1271030344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quote quote) < 1271030365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :75|* ehird disables javascript < 1271030370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030371 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18| GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. < 1271030384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smokey would be so much better if he said that. < 1271030386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030388 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13|* ehird has joined #lobby hmmm clean me < 1271030391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030392 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :124| I cannot eat meat that isn't flat. < 1271030396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030397 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :72| ignore me, i'm full of bullshit < 1271030403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truer words never spoken. < 1271030407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop the spam please < 1271030408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to tell who added a quote? < 1271030414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1271030415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1271030416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1271030417 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1271030422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1271030423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see the hg repo < 1271030424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shows the user < 1271030424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030427 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21| First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. < 1271030428 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Jobs is saying that by limiting everyone to Objective-C, nicer apps are made. Apparently, if you don't kick developers to hand-tweak the result, they won't? < 1271030429 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1271030429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whoami < 1271030434 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1271030438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... odd < 1271030440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run whoami < 1271030441 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So better just to force everyone to do it one way to.. < 1271030441 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1271030444 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION growls < 1271030450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030452 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :115| hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling < 1271030458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, we need to name a user "No output." just to screw with people < 1271030464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030465 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :58| [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective < 1271030471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i miss mycroftiv < 1271030473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was a lunatic < 1271030485 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was? < 1271030486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030487 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25|`quote < 1271030489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well, is. < 1271030492 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1271030506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we stop the spam? < 1271030513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1271030514 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16| 11 holes for me :D < 1271030519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1271030520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030522 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :102| I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.> < 1271030526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not < 1271030528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030530 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :132| For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. < 1271030534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone says anything of interest i'll stop < 1271030535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just go fuck the bot in /msg < 1271030536 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66| It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them? < 1271030537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1271030538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1271030541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :botsex < 1271030543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ehird is spamming with the bot agian < 1271030545 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18| GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. < 1271030546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again* < 1271030552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no he isn't, ehird isn't even in here < 1271030554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can see that. < 1271030557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& besides nobody is saying anything of interest < 1271030562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nyah < 1271030564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, make it ignore him or something for a while < 1271030575 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't. < 1271030576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, I hate channel politics < 1271030581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why not? < 1271030588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, tell him to use /msg then < 1271030597 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vote for ais523 for #esoteric president! < 1271030599 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: use /msg then < 1271030603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: no u < 1271030610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you could do it with iptables anyway, deep packet inspection to discard packages from him ;P < 1271030616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030617 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99| things are more awesome when written by someone in here < 1271030624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, he refuses to? < 1271030628 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION may end up slapping alise < 1271030632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's one of the most ridiculous ways to ignore people on IRC I've ever heard < 1271030636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*AnMaster: < 1271030642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1271030649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is? < 1271030654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep packet inspection < 1271030658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh yes hah < 1271030664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, do you only have three lines of memory even for your own comments? < 1271030666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1271030666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deep ... DEEP packet inspection. < 1271030668 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :108| It's not incest if you're third cousins! < 1271030674 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you addressed alise at first < 1271030683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: iptables is capable of some pretty damned deep packet inspection. < 1271030687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yep, then corrected < 1271030695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its replacement should be more-so. < 1271030696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought everyone could do IRC corrections in their head nowadays < 1271030699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from possibly newbies < 1271030708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm yeah ... I love that DEEP packet inspection. So deeeeep ... < 1271030721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can do it. Just that I thought it was about me having ehird on /ignore < 1271030726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is currently the case < 1271030734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but it wasn't him talking, it was me < 1271030742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you have lines that nickping him/her on ignore too? < 1271030751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no but that is a good idea < 1271030757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys did I mention I'm ignoring alise < 1271030765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop pointing it out you dumbass < 1271030767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I didn't see the * however < 1271030767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just irritating < 1271030777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I use s/// or put the * after generally < 1271030785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1271030786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, putting the * after makes it harder to see < 1271030792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy enough to see if a comment starts with a * < 1271030797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it makes little sence out of context otherwise < 1271030799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sense < 1271030811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1271030813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to read a whole line to know if it was a correction or not, unless you read right to left < 1271030819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a swedishism < 1271030821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like bork bork bork < 1271030831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's a fake swedishism < 1271030832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's postfix too < 1271030835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: shut up < 1271030872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 weeks HackBot run chmod 777 Guest_hacked < 1271030873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 weeks HackBot run printf "#!/bin/sh \n echo Guest Hacked " > Guest_hacked < 1271030875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is some pretty major hacking < 1271030904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, in that order? < 1271030922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, opposite < 1271030931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 weeks HackBot touch me < 1271030931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271030933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271030935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, that isn't really hacking < 1271030944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like people who edit wikis and claim it's hacking < 1271030960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRETTY MAJOR HACKING I THINK YOU'LL FIND < 1271030980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : addquote and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain it's all falling into place < 1271031052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION actually starts reading the link about the iPhone dev agreement that someone linked ages ago < 1271031061 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271031064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why I like new-tab opening at the end, it means I read breadth-first rather than depth first < 1271031071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, maybe this is how I manage to escape TV Tropes < 1271031114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: unfortunately, that impedes actual navigational use of tabs < 1271031133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I use tabs to basically understand a concept in depth by reading all the concepts I don't understand to complete the picture < 1271031133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1271031146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I use new-window for that < 1271031152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabs are just a todo list of things to read < 1271031203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should have tabs both vertically and horizontally < 1271031211 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes he didn't need the Marketplace app to download apps from the Marketplace < 1271031212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can go both depth-first and breadth-first < 1271031263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use buffers and don't care about the order. < 1271031281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think internally I've got some sort of data structure assigning order to it in my head? < 1271031303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In your head" is usually a bad sign; your computer could probably do that for you. < 1271031355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You mean my computer can account for my random whims? < 1271031355 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... I can't even remember what I was thinking of when I wrote 115 < 1271031382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: obviously, or you wouldn't have had to ask < 1271031384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think half the order is "interest". < 1271031396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, no. < 1271031399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "probably". < 1271031403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: 115 what? < 1271031406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the quote earlier on < 1271031412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 115 < 1271031413 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :115| hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling < 1271031418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it was some pun < 1271031434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds likely < 1271031442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you pronounced it out it sounded like that < 1271031443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1271031449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep for it in your logs or whatever < 1271031506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have logs? < 1271031568 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he can use ANGEL on Android < 1271031588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voice search works about 80% of the time, but you have to speak slowly and enunciate everything, and pronounce marks. And it doesn't recognize some proper nouns, transcribing "Jesus" (pronounced the Spanish way) to "Hey Zeus," Bruce Willis style. The major downside is that all the voice transcription is done in the cloudyou know, it's Googleso you have to have a net connection to use it. It's awesome to dictate text messages or emails, though I p < 1271031588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :robably talk too fast and mumble too much for this to work well. < 1271031597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANGEL? < 1271031618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Battery life lasts around a day with normal use, which includes calling, browsing, Google Mapping, push Gmailing and clothed sexting. That's on par with other smartphones now, and won't see much change until we get a dramatic boost in battery technology.]] < 1271031687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the nexus one only has 4gb of storage but you can expand that to 32 gb by inserting a microsd card < 1271031692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you want to do, if you want to put music on it < 1271031724 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, school website < 1271031735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: does it work in webkit? < 1271031737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, probably yes. < 1271031739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(try chrome) < 1271031746 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it's not officially supported < 1271031753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it work? < 1271031755 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works well enough for most things, but not everything < 1271031836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that okay? < 1271031840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, it will probably work on Android. < 1271031853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, you don't even have iPhone as an option: it's AT&T, yes, but it's also contract. < 1271031859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would music take up that much space? < 1271031862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the contractless iPhone 3G S is ~$700. < 1271031867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Uh... it does. < 1271031873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure you can fit MIDI files on floppies < 1271031875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is this a shitty "LOL MIDI" leadup? < 1271031878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1271031880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did I know. < 1271031885 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I like MIDIs! < 1271031899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the problem is that MIDIs are /good enough/ < 1271031900 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIDIs have a strong connection with the shitty 3d games I like! < 1271031919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I normally compile them into .ogg files on this computer, so they take less CPU to play < 1271031936 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[well, actually, outside of a few MIDIs from AW, it's mostly a 2d thing that I get MIDIs from] < 1271031939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, we should have a format along the lines of .s3m < 1271031946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it's called < 1271031965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is basically MIDI+patches in the same file, so you don't lose the information that you lose in a wave-like file < 1271032090 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now has an excuse to use his phone in class < 1271032091 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271032106 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Well, pending a decent Android .ppt viewer] < 1271032140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, there isn't even a decent Windows .ppt viewer < 1271032196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerpoint is arguably the worst of the major Office apps < 1271032245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all pretty bad though. < 1271032274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, Excel is the best < 1271032279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though at least Microsoft has finally gotten at least a *bit* of a clue about how to serialise things. < 1271032293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather dangerously so, in that it tries to encourage people to use it for things you really shouldn't use a spreadsheet program for < 1271032302 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there's an Android Market viewer that will let him actually download apps < 1271032318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They used to just write a massive chunk of memory to file. < 1271032330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The registry still does this. < 1271032360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you could download the free ones from elsewhere i bet < 1271032363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A registry file sometimes includes random chunks of the actual program. < 1271032383 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, did you get the emulator working? < 1271032392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I actually just resumed my java download now... < 1271032506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The doubt within quantifiers. < 1271032546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: apparently foxit have been working on an android pdf reader < 1271032548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also pdfmenot.com < 1271032587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh pdfmenot is now google docs viewer < 1271032589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter url though < 1271032631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://www.dataviz.com/products/documentstogo/android/ does full, proper pdf rendering < 1271032636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries AppBrain < 1271032639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$19.99 tho < 1271032660 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.androidzoom.com/android_applications/productivity/beamreader-pdf-viewer_bfbo.html looks good < 1271032664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh foxit for android died) < 1271032676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://www.dataviz.com/products/documentstogo/android/ seems to do perfect pdf rendering if you can cough up the $20-1c < 1271032682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(20 dollars minus one cent) < 1271032695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like with antialiasing unlike that beamreader < 1271032813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16% [1 sun-java6-bin 7749120/27.4MB 28%] 188kB/s 3min 24s < 1271032816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on mobile internet < 1271032818 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pressing Tab doesn't switch between fields < 1271032820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a momentous day for humanity, folks < 1271032828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: quicker to touch < 1271032831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely < 1271032834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what, downloading Java? < 1271032836 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java serialised classes are pretty hardcore < 1271032842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, the speed over totally wireless internet < 1271032844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, when I'm in the emulator, it's quicker to press Tab < 1271032846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: java anything is not hardcore. < 1271032848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well, true < 1271032856 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from my experience harder to parse than class files < 1271032900 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get at least one of the older minecraft map files, they're basically a gzipped java serialised class with a 5-byte header < 1271032906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, what happens if you serialise a Class object? < 1271032922 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, idunno if it implements Serializable < 1271032924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably nothing particularly interesting < 1271032942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: gah, for a moment I forgot about Java preventing you doing insane things < 1271032946 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid 404! < 1271032961 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if Google removed the AppBrain app from the Marketplace < 1271032970 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if the Marketplace detects that I'm trying to cheat it < 1271032972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me, why does no "Java-like OO" language allow you to mark methods abstract but give an implementation anyway? < 1271032988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make it a lot clearer what methods could be replaced entirely, and which had to be wrapped < 1271032993 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public final class Class < 1271032993 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extends Object < 1271032994 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implements Serializable, GenericDeclaration, Type, AnnotatedElement < 1271033004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is serialisable < 1271033031 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably gives you information on the class, but that's about it < 1271033065 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once made a minecraft map loader in lua < 1271033079 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow and not very faithful to the spec but it worked < 1271033097 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think Notch has decided to use a simpler format < 1271033117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: the marketplace is not required < 1271033120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can install ipk files too < 1271033124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are they some other extension i forget < 1271033129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the emulator website docs < 1271033134 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, apk < 1271033136 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/platform/serialization/spec/protocol.html < 1271033155 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I know, but there are a lot of apps on the Marketplace, and I don't see how to get to the .apk files without the Marketplace app < 1271033171 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I installed an alternative Market thing, but I want the real one on here < 1271033185 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fairly well packed format < 1271033805 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271033812 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To have an Internet connection whereever I am < 1271033818 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fantasizes < 1271034284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It's awesome. < 1271034484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can IRC from ANYWHERE < 1271034484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1271034484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nooo, I just ran out of mobile broadband < 1271034504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: does it charge by the byte? < 1271034511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, how come you're still talking here? < 1271034568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe alise isn't < 1271034663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I still haven't a clue why this segfaults. < 1271034679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I haven't a clue *how* this segfaults. < 1271034680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: ping < 1271034694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: poing < 1271034712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of like a pong, except it reflects off from a random direction, sort of like a bullet ricochet < 1271034778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271034778 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1271034791 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMMIT < 1271034816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1271034888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: restarting X in an attempt to get rid of a bunch of glitchiness < 1271034969 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271035017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric : | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1271035280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271035701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm the only person alise wants to say bye too? Or will alise be back before e has to leave? < 1271035811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, running mycology. < 1271035816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: BAD: \ doesn't swap < 1271035819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This confuses me. < 1271035833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Because \ swaps. < 1271035878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Comment weirdness. < 1271035937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"// \ " apparently comments out the next line. < 1271035946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow. < 1271036154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, mycology.b98 executes, outputs no BAD lines, then segfaults. < 1271036252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get 2263 lines of output. < 1271036334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v#-5 gv#-20-30pGOOD: p modifies space < 1271036343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Final line before segfaulting. < 1271036390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = {bufsz = 1024, bufused = 18446744073709549303, buf = 0x1000000607010
} < 1271036399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear me. That seems quite wrong. < 1271036422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Any idea what could cause bufused > bufsz? < 1271036447 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Something going horribly wrong? :P. Adding to the buffer without EXPANDing it first? < 1271036499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only added to with PUSH. Which checks for that. < 1271036514 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUSH should just be WRITE_BUFFER(..., 1, ...) :P < 1271036532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Shush you. < 1271036722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same behavior. Hooray. < 1271036765 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Show us the codezes. < 1271036786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, that's fun. I was stepping below the array. < 1271036800 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhhkidokie. < 1271036831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In spite of all array indexing being modular arithmetic... < 1271036855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yessss ... array indexing in crazy-land. < 1271036871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps my indexes should be unsigned. :P < 1271036875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, that fixes it. < 1271036891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I get errorness. < 1271036896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: p modifies space < 1271036897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: p doesn't modify space% < 1271036907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is it, mycology? < 1271036991 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are "space" and "space%" not the same? < 1271037028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% is my terminal showing the lack of newline before EOF. < 1271037037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1271037038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My shell. < 1271037043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :P < 1271037044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was also reversed. < 1271037193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, any idea how p can both modify and not modify space? :P < 1271037205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appear to be taking both branches somehow. XD < 1271037277 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You should be able to help pikhq here, right? < 1271037324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Deewiant wrote Mycology. I presume he could help. < 1271037339 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, didn't know the author was also an #esoteric'er. < 1271037390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Course, it's also fairly late/early there. So he may not be conscious. < 1271039462 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably do his C++ homework at some point < 1271039600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds backtraceness to the interpreter < 1271039986 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271040001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backtrace? Check. < 1271040152 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should learn zippers < 1271040379 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271040408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/BhiG Complete program execution. < 1271040431 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1271040505 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271040891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also. http://sprunge.us/ShIJ < 1271041043 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-52-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271041168 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271041222 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271041649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271042036 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271042120 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271042582 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271043514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271043680 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-0-216.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271043688 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271043928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271044297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271045441 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271045596 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-0-216.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271047336 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271048102 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will anyone kill me if I start programming in Scala? < 1271048148 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271048250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1271049195 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271049354 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think people have fit full working world taking over AI into 6K. We can fit "x => x + 1" < 1271049380 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[that was after ah, lightweight anonymous functions. http://pastie.org/915119 ] < 1271050247 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Scala has mutable and immutable variables < 1271053324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://images.4chan.org/co/src/1271047978643.png < 1271053367 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271053380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: so does C++. woop de doo < 1271053452 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: epic < 1271053456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271053589 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1271053710 0 :ellisonch!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271054172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: C++ has many sorts of mutability and immutability. < 1271054189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like everything else. < 1271054190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271054190 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271056534 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1271058798 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271059199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271059200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271059332 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271059679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271059738 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271059774 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1271061170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1271062693 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271064862 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271066767 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: After p, it tries to wrap around, and that probably isn't working. < 1271067346 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271067410 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271067434 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1271068611 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271069263 0 :andreas1984!~Miranda@f055174008.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271069855 0 :andreas1984!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org < 1271069988 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1271073629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271074904 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271076857 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271077479 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271078757 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-213-130.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271078830 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271079256 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-98-230.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271079313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271080249 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271080554 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271080955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271081212 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271081486 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271081606 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271082366 0 :augur!~augur@static-70-108-247-66.res.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271082622 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-251.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271083080 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271083411 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271083484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes an adrian with an L oracle < 1271083586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idle for 41 days? O_O < 1271083912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271084651 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271084965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271085507 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1271085625 0 :augur!~augur@static-70-108-247-66.res.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271085755 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-13-251.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271086009 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1271086298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271088133 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271090132 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271090488 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271090915 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271091035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271091117 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271091427 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As of now, the only mobile version of RoboZZle is the one for iPhone/iPad/iPod touch. We'll see how much interest there will be in the iPhone client - that will make it clearer how worthwhile it would be be to port RoboZZle to other mobile platforms." < 1271091430 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gibbers < 1271091789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, to gibber mush giffle snibble traf a gnome sifting beroth unwards. < 1271091861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This space intentionally left | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1271093908 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Which way does it wrap around? < 1271093918 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Across the west edge < 1271093953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Not seeing that in the execution trace. < 1271094013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should do that right after it prints the "GOOD: p works" stuff < 1271094033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stepping: (0, 17) ; : No-op < 1271094036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stepping: (15, 17) +; +: 0 0 resulting in 0 < 1271094049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That... Is an odd place to step to. < 1271094065 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should step to 80,17 methinks :-) < 1271094072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271094458 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271094715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now it goes into an infinite loop between (0, 18) and (14, 18). ... Somehow. < 1271094726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stepping: (0, 18) #; #: skipping char < 1271094730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stepping: (14, 18) ; : No-op < 1271094740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that make... Sense? < 1271094754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. < 1271094771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't fix the wrapping logic in #. < 1271094835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then. Now passes Mycology. < 1271094901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 0.005 seconds. Granted, Mycology 93, but still. < 1271094911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to randomise the directionness. < 1271095148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell? < 1271095170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycorand.bf has become... An ELF file? < 1271095243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to ask how I managed to get an ELF file to the start of that. < 1271095345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still haven't got befunge 93 to work? < 1271095356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is somewhat surprised < 1271095396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, rand() is easy though < 1271095417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just srand(time(NULL)) and then rand() % 4 < 1271095425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1271095432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hadn't *bothered*. < 1271095439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and if your MAX_RAND isn't evenly divisable by 4 you have a strange system < 1271095458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, it's hard to get B93 working when you're segfaulting in getc. :P < 1271095473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what was the cause of that btw? < 1271095490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was actually segfaulting elsewhere and screwing with gdb. < 1271095500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, must have been a bad segfault < 1271095510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1271095523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what was the other segfault caused by? < 1271095583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, remember to try mycouser too < 1271095587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that works for 93 too? < 1271095592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tests input < 1271095600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and div by zero < 1271095617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have a *** glibc detected *** ./jitfunge: double free or corruption (out): 0x0000000001644ec0 *** which is not much nicer. < 1271095652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, those tend to be annoyingly useless backtraces too < 1271095655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb helps < 1271095658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It happens inside llvm's _ZN4llvm10VirtRegMap20runOnMachineFunctionERNS_15MachineFunctionE function; don't you just love C++ method name manglings? < 1271095664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1271095684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, suggestion: attach gdb, it handles unmangling too < 1271095707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though it doesn't help that much to catch the bug. < 1271095754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit weird because the module->dump()'d llvm assembly compiles just fine with llvm-as + llc into X86 asm; not sure why it crashes like that when it's trying to JIT it. < 1271095769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and an idea for the future: find number of CPUs and/or cores. Then if you have more than one start one or two "optimistic tracers". With this I mean something that when you hit a _ or | or such tries to trace the other branch a bit. It is likely to be useful in a bit anyway < 1271095777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the locking overhead would be < 1271095785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it may be not too bad < 1271095805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be done, yes. < 1271095809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well probably do some loop heuristics on the | < 1271095815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all it could be a plain if ran once < 1271095829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe look for hot spots by counting hits or such? < 1271095843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the java vm does that sort of things < 1271095855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm still having odd issues on mycorand.bf < 1271095862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't know how much of a PITA the locking would be wrt llvm < 1271095873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1271095878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among these issues are infinite loops. < 1271095890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I guess your randomness isn't random enough < 1271095904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, make sure you actually map 0-3 to different directions < 1271095909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and haven't typoed anything < 1271095929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember doing % 4 and then mapping 1-4 once. < 1271095933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth checking for too < 1271095968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not getting in an infinite loop there. < 1271095975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1271095979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then where? < 1271095990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: I don't have mycology handy atm < 1271095997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't just take a line/col reference < 1271096010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is on a mobile device < 1271096015 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's somehow finding itself in the middle of a string and not in string mode. < 1271096025 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it reflect back and forth. < 1271096026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you do #" ? < 1271096029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Reflects. < 1271096043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or perhaps like that but wrapping < 1271096044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how it even got there, actually. < 1271096052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the *middle* of the string. < 1271096054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, trace it step by step then < 1271096073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in make it print out x,y,cell-value for each thing it executes < 1271096088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then trace through that < 1271096112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, useful if another (known working) interpreter can do that too. Then you can just diff the trace output < 1271096144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ccbi just has a debugger iirc, cfunge can output exactly the kind of debug info I mentioned (with somewhat more fancy formatting than just "x,y,cell-value") < 1271096164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-t 4 to cfunge should be perfect for this < 1271096170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've had it stepping for a while now. < 1271096181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then surely you can see where it enters the string? < 1271096214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, perhaps some wrapping issue? < 1271096236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's hard to get this behavior. < 1271096251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it just infinite loops putting out the string. Which *also* confuses me. < 1271096260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, eh... < 1271096265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, try valgrind < 1271096310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when bugs make no sense whatsoever one of the first things to try is valgrind, then valgrind --tool=exp-ptrcheck (or was it ptrcheck-exp? well, some such) < 1271096324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also only hits "?;" twice. < 1271096374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wait what? ; ? < 1271096387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that befunge-98 < 1271096450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry. That's from my tracing output. :P < 1271096472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, back at a computer < 1271096475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah*. p is modifying the wrong cell. < 1271096484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1271096488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how comes? < 1271096527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swapped order. :P < 1271096533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh and once you fixed it, please post the source code. I know of a few things mycology93 wouldn't test < 1271096542 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As I've often said, "yes s | ccbi -t" is a tracer :-P < 1271096542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yet you passed mycology? < 1271096552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in a fairly hard to parse format < 1271096556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271096559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, mycology tested (9,9). < 1271096564 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not meant to be machine-readable. < 1271096566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one line per executed instruction? < 1271096571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well that is what I need it for < 1271096577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to diff < 1271096586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now it passes mycorand. < 1271096590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can diff other stuff too? < 1271096592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe you should move that cell in mycology 93 < 1271096607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About to test division by zero... < 1271096608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: floating point exception ./a.out mycology/mycouser.b98 < 1271096608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271096609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but I can't easily sed it to the same format as the trace output to compare to < 1271096621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why in zsh? < 1271096634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because my shell is reporting the exception? < 1271096640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, if you're comparing two different interpreters... but you can't assume them to have the same trace format anyway. < 1271096641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1271096643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1271096656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, that is what you use sed for < 1271096674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I remember adding such a trace just to track down some t bug early on < 1271096681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which iirc was the one that turned out to be in ccbi < 1271096683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So write the sed that changes CCBI's output to whatever you like? You only have to do it once :-P < 1271096719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also a compact trace is more readable IMO. You can see more of the events without scrolling < 1271096743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made sure it was both easy to read in cfunge for the -t 4 level, and easy to parse/grep < 1271096743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1271096764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typically don't want just a trace, I want to see what's going on < 1271096767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some higher levels is for more detailed info, like top elements of stack and so on, that is less readable < 1271096779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes I often find a trace to be a good way to see what is going on < 1271096796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't you the one who usually uses a debugger to find C bugs? :-P < 1271096846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for SIGSEGV and similar obviously yes. Otherwise I often tests it without debugger to find the rough point of problem. Then I go into debugger to debug the thing < 1271096874 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why are you so against debugging Befunge? < 1271096899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 1 / 0 = 0 < 1271096900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not. I'm just against a lack of easy-to-sed-on trace output < 1271096901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: floating point exception ./a.out mycology/mycouser.b98 < 1271096904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1271096909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is for modulo < 1271096923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also befunge93 should ask you for the value < 1271096924 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, I honestly do not see a use case for tracing < 1271096926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Immediately before? < 1271096927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stepping: (44, 4) %; %: 0 1 resulting in 0 < 1271096940 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271096947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also Befunge93 does not say that it should ask you for the value therefore I'm not making it do that. < 1271096948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I find the good debugger useful, tracing not so much. < 1271096952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, to track down t bugs. Where you can't tell where the error is. But you can compare against a working interpreter and do a game of "spot the difference" < 1271096962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t bugs especially < 1271096974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure it does. I remember reading that < 1271096979 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When there's a bug in t, just break on t and single step. < 1271097001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well duh in t itself < 1271097006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I meant in concurrency in general < 1271097023 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the point of the CCBI debugger is to debug Befunge, not Befunge interpreters. < 1271097027 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271097033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some timing issue in string mode I remember only tracking down due to tracing < 1271097053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay. I use gdb + a .gdbinit for debugging funge < 1271097068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're doing it the wrong way around :-P < 1271097084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should use gdb to debug the interpreter and the interpreter to debug Befunge :-P < 1271097091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't you only support a single breakpoint or such in ccbi1? < 1271097097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb supports a lot more :P < 1271097114 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271097139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hmm. It seems that this reflects on \0. < 1271097168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1271097170 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CCBI 2 supports more. I really only need one typically, though. < 1271097173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does \0 come into it? < 1271097184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how many? < 1271097190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does it support now) < 1271097204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Arbitrarily many. < 1271097210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also using gdb is in theory faster, it uses hardware breakpoint after all ;P < 1271097223 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271097230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it probably uses software breakpoints, but yeah < 1271097241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not interested in my interpreter's internals when I've got buggy Befunge. < 1271097246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's an early newline. < 1271097248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, gdb? No. I prefer hardware breakpoints when possible < 1271097253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Befunge array is 0-filled. < 1271097260 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271097261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1271097272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, funge space is *space* filled < 1271097277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not \0 filled < 1271097284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm describing my interpreter. < 1271097291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then you are doing it wrong < 1271097299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be space filled < 1271097319 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So what, you monitor memory addresses? < 1271097321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/website_befunge93.html Not in here. < 1271097323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271097330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is the "reflect on unknown" thing. < 1271097344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology isn't very Befunge-93. < 1271097361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a lot of things will break if you don't space fill it < 1271097383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, every other interpreter I know of does it. Even for 93 < 1271097386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't need to be space filled, it just needs to work. < 1271097391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271097397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. if you have something like < 1271097398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> v < 1271097399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1271097400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < < 1271097404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the v should hit the < < 1271097410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it needs to be space in there < 1271097414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't < 1271097419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The v just needs to hit the <. < 1271097420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because otherwise g on that x,y won't work < 1271097434 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the docs don't say that. :-P < 1271097473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the docs doesn't say anywhere either that g on a x,y containing a > should return the ascii value of >? < 1271097481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean explicitly for a > < 1271097506 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? They say that g pushes the value of the char at (x,y) < 1271097515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then, what is the char space? < 1271097519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a space! < 1271097521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1271097529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there is no space to the right of the @ < 1271097559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what I mean is that the docs don't say what to get for coordinates that weren't in the file < 1271097563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay, but that will break a hell of a lot of programs < 1271097578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also a fair number of befunge93 programs depend on unknown reflecting < 1271097579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt many programs rely on that < 1271097588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do they? Don't most interpreters nop? < 1271097594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're wrong! < 1271097600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I remember running into a few < 1271097607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well maybe, but that is your issue then < 1271097750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for 98 it is defined that way anyway. If you plan on doing 98 it is a good idea to get used to it already < 1271097765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the interpreter actually considering a particular character unknown (rather than possibly using it for extensions) sounds like a bad idea to me... < 1271097770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not *doing* 98. < 1271097800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well then *shrug* < 1271097886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, have you seen http://catseye.tc/projects/bef/src/bef2c.c ? < 1271097889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused now < 1271097908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've seen t hat < 1271097914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? < 1271097927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, optimisation? befunge? compiler? < 1271097951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? :-P < 1271097959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how does it handle self modification? < 1271097966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it does then how does it optimise < 1271097981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just pretty much bundles an interpreter with the code like all Befunge compilers I know of < 1271097999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the optimisation then < 1271098015 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno, haven't looked into that. < 1271098075 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hmm, I'm not sure if that's the one I was thinking of. < 1271098087 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever. < 1271098116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the reference befunge93 implementation: < 1271098117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : memset(pg, ' ', LINEWIDTH * PAGEHEIGHT); < 1271098122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://catseye.tc/projects/bef/src/bef.c < 1271098131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Reference implementation != spec. < 1271098152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just telling you that *not* making it default to space is bloody stupid < 1271098173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just telling you that making it default to anything is bloody stupid. < 1271098185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore it defaults to nothing. < 1271098187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :default to anything? < 1271098200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is filled with random uninitialised data? < 1271098225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's 0-filled, as are all uninitialised C globals. < 1271098226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, filling it with \0 is, you see, also defaulting to something < 1271098249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programs relying on any unspecified behavior will be shot. < 1271098299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungestation 9000 < 1271098305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what good reason do you have to *not* follow the common practise here? Are you aiming for a DS9K? < 1271098344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Eff you, unspecified behavior." < 1271098372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I fail to see how that answers my question about your good reason < 1271098419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not believe in implementing unspecified behavior soley because of what is common. I am simply going to implement the language. < 1271098428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I care not for "what other implementations do". < 1271098457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you know if you did befunge98 and do that you would fail. The befunge98 spec doesn't work in some cases < 1271098461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to change it < 1271098465 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No he wouldn't. < 1271098481 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only problematic instruction is t. < 1271098486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes that is the one I meant < 1271098492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t is optional. < 1271098496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1271098499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he could skip it < 1271098511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should all sop using i < 1271098512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't work then I would of course look for implementations of it to see what was decided upon as the intended behavior for the language. < 1271098523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1271098526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs < 1271098531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271098553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/SBIe < 1271098553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty obvious what to do with t once you've done it "wrong", though. < 1271098556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it doesn't work as in it will cause a fork bomb the way it is defined < 1271098650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay then. < 1271098733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would a to-the-letter befunge-98 spec following implementation (excluding t issues) pass mycology? < 1271098747 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should. < 1271098768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, remember it is vague. I'm thinking it would hit issues on k < 1271098786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's vague, but everything non-UNDEF is IMO inferrable. < 1271098798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not sure about the k issues < 1271098864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wgets that source < 1271098888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anything special to build it? just clang -o pikhq-bef pikhq-bef.c ? < 1271098932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That should do it. < 1271098932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm didn't work < 1271098941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very GCC-specific. < 1271098957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:146:23: error: cannot compile this GNU array range designator extension yet < 1271098958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *lookup[256] = { < 1271098958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1271098959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1271098974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-std=c99 to gcc breaks too < 1271098989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it does, since it uses GNU extensions. < 1271098993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-std=gnu99 < 1271098994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:146:23: error: cannot compile this GNU array range designator extension yet < 1271098994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *lookup[256] = { < 1271098995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^pikhq-bef.c: In function ‘instrs’: < 1271098995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:183: warning: array subscript has type ‘char’ < 1271098995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:371: warning: array subscript has type ‘char’ < 1271098997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271099004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synergey fails at copy paste fail < 1271099007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -std=gnu99 < 1271099012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I meant to paste was: < 1271099015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:183: warning: array subscript has type ‘char’ < 1271099015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:371: warning: array subscript has type ‘char’ < 1271099015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq-bef.c:371: warning: array subscript has type ‘char’ < 1271099017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get lots of that < 1271099036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay. So? < 1271099045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just thought I'd tell you < 1271099060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfectly defined behavior, it's just very likely to be wrong in most programs. < 1271099203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./pikhq-bef-tux ~/dragon/src/own/cfunge/trunk/examples/wumpus.bf < 1271099207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault < 1271099214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, let me pastebin the program < 1271099225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/LMhC < 1271099244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is strange it segfaulted. < 1271099257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, definitely segfaults. < 1271099264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :58 is not prime. < 1271099264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault < 1271099269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from another program < 1271099275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you grow the stack properly? < 1271099279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just stack overflow < 1271099290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/OXfD < 1271099293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the prime program < 1271099295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which also segfaults < 1271099300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The macros do in fact grow the stack. < 1271099301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These programs are all on catseye.tc < 1271099313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah yes indeed I guess < 1271099316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to be trying to access outside of fungespace somehow. < 1271099325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I forgot the source so I just found it easier to pastebin them < 1271099328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungespace_x = 4294967295 < 1271099345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you not check that it is in bounds? because these are classical befunge93 apps < 1271099347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is in string mode. < 1271099352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271099370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String mode is *probably* supposed to wrap. :P < 1271099371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you don't handle wrapping in string mode? < 1271099377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1271099381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I did but apparently not. < 1271099382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, of course it is supposed to wrap < 1271099395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it obviously should. < 1271099396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just didn't. < 1271099411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I doubt the primes one segfaults due to this. Since it seems to run fine for quite a bit and I don't see any wrapping strings in it < 1271099415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably another error in it < 1271099436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and you should extend the 93 part of mycology ;P < 1271099458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and more important: not use 9,9 for p test < 1271099465 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really interested in the 93 part of Mycology :-P < 1271099466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use something like 8,9 or whatever < 1271099475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the p test applies to 98 too iirc? < 1271099522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there's a later pg test that uses -3,-2 < 1271099555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait is http://sprunge.us/jDBL befunge98? Why does does it use .bf extension < 1271099563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is officially befunge97 but... < 1271099575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike's programs all use .f98 IIRC. < 1271099582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, your interpreter crashes on http://sprunge.us/jDBL as well < 1271099590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Mike? < 1271099591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not official or anything, it's just a recommendation. < 1271099593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Riley. < 1271099594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it says "Kevin Vigor" < 1271099601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Mike Riley < 1271099601 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... < 1271099608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah! sprunge stopped pasting! < 1271099608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said that Mike uses .f98. < 1271099610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271099615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1271099649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't get sprunge to hand me a URL any more. < 1271099677 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTH? < 1271099697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other pastebins. < 1271099698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, works for me < 1271099703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tested < 1271099718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not working for me. < 1271099732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH WHAT THE HELL < 1271099739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no idea then. Maybe PEBKAC? < 1271099744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accidentally output into befunge93.c < 1271099748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus erasing it. < 1271099754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the last paste of it? :P < 1271099759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hg revert :P < 1271099759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271099771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not in hg < 1271099771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and if not learn to use version control < 1271099776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo '(hello)S' | ./jitfunge ../underload.b98 => "main.cc:80: [main] gnuuubl middle of existing trace" -- there's still perhaps some work to do there. < 1271099783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well I hope that taught you a lesson < 1271099786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't version control until there's... more than one file. < 1271099802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you will have to find it in scrollback yourself < 1271099811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be too hard anyway < 1271099813 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: gnuuubl? < 1271099831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but if you promise to use a VCS then: http://sprunge.us/SBIe < 1271099836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: An expression of despair. < 1271099842 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1271099863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what language is "gnuuubl"? < 1271099865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of version control, you could opt for something like NILFS for /home. < 1271099887 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I opt for doing testing in a different directory than the source :-P < 1271099889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1271099890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/KKDR There you go. < 1271099890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the sound of a gnu being dragged into a pool by a crocodile. very traumatic. < 1271099956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the gnu, that is. < 1271099973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1271099979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi.bf appears to segfault, but that's not B93 so I don't care. :P < 1271099989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the prime one then? < 1271099996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still segfaults < 1271099997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works just fine. < 1271099997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is 93 < 1271100001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, segfaults here < 1271100016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backtrace? < 1271100017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segfaults unless running under gdb < 1271100021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTH < 1271100030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under GDB it goes negative instead < 1271100035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even more weird < 1271100048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. < 1271100054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: chars are signed. :P < 1271100067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. On x86 and x86_64. < 1271100076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme go make them unsigned. < 1271100078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On some compilers. < 1271100078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see: http://sprunge.us/BdIR < 1271100085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I thought you used 32-bit cells? < 1271100087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in befunge < 1271100092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't that what the pasted warning was about anyhow? < 1271100106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, you use "a stack". < 1271100128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you can't really since you can't reach down deep in the stack < 1271100140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh also: it includes controlcodes < 1271100145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to have been lost in the paste < 1271100149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see: < 1271100156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17 is a prime.[0004] < 1271100219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/bFiZ And now? < 1271100267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, works in gdb. Still segfaults outside gdb < 1271100285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest getting a core dump? < 1271100323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm doing that already < 1271100327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before you mentioned it < 1271100337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then where's it segfaulting? < 1271100348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ore was generated by `./pikhq-bef-tux /home/arvid/dragon/src/own/cfunge/trunk/examples/prime.bf'. < 1271100348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. < 1271100348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0 0x0000000000401889 in ?? () < 1271100348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) bt < 1271100348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0 0x0000000000401889 in ?? () < 1271100353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the stack is smashed < 1271100354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-g < 1271100359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear. < 1271100360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I compiled with g < 1271100367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not *that* stupid < 1271100371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I got nothing. < 1271100374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, -ggdb3 -O0 in fact < 1271100382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except "works for me" < 1271100385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ gcc --version < 1271100385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc (GCC) 4.4.3 20100316 (prerelease) < 1271100389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what arch uses < 1271100392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try on ubuntu < 1271100397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc (Gentoo 4.4.3 p1.0) 4.4.3 < 1271100423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :401889 looks like a reasonable address. < 1271100440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segfaults on ubuntu too < 1271100449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ gcc --version < 1271100449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc (Ubuntu 4.3.3-5ubuntu4) 4.3.3 < 1271100453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, some bit of jitfunge is trying to put value V to coordinates (X,Y), and ends up putting value X to coordinates (Y,V). < 1271100453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is jaunty < 1271100471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the next frame does not: < 1271100476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1 0x0000000000000006 in ?? () < 1271100476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2 0x003b000000000002 in ?? () < 1271100476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#3 0x0000000000000802 in ?? () < 1271100482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What /are/ you doing in there? :-P < 1271100483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x0000000000000006? < 1271100486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unlikely* < 1271100497 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible, in user mode. < 1271100505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually not. < 1271100526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but unless you tune a sysctl nowdays it is forbidden for normal user space < 1271100550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway I can send you the binary and the core dump if that helpos < 1271100551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helps* < 1271100552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: My first guess is that I populate the intermediate form's "args" structures from the stack in a different order than what I thought I did. < 1271100552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, I meant under a typical OS. < 1271100567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Doubtful. < 1271100578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, let me try valgrind < 1271100581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's a rotation < 1271100584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A stack smash isn't all that helpful of a core dump. :P < 1271100587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny thing < 1271100590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works under valgrind < 1271100595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1271100599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gives lots of invalid reads < 1271100604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screams bloody murder? < 1271100622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, http://sprunge.us/FbSN < 1271100650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Being able to map 0x0 is a simple system configuration on Linux. < 1271100663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, notice some corruption in output for some primes < 1271100667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like � < 1271100687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hmm. < 1271100698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i recall reading about a recent exploit based on mapping it < 1271100699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, can you reproduce those valgrind errors? < 1271100710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, that's actually a bit strange. But p might have a mixture of constant (or already-in-registers) arguments and things it needs to pop, which might cause problems. < 1271100728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Under a typical and typically configured OS >_< < 1271100740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1271100754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It used to be the default, actually. :P < 1271100755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then I find it not unlikely that fixing those will fix the bug < 1271100757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: if you are populating V and (X,Y) in the wrong order, you would get that < 1271100773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How recently? < 1271100777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch that was awkwardly wored < 1271100780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worded* < 1271100796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 2.6.something < 1271100797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, until quite recently < 1271100802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 2.6.20 or something like that? < 1271100807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.22 perhaps < 1271100816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps a bit earlier < 1271100819 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1271100822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you'd have to explicitly ask for mmap to 0 for that to happen. < 1271100829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1271100854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always have to change the sysctl when I run sheepshaver < 1271100889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putchar(BUFFER_TOP(stack)); <-- ... *This* is a source of an invalid read. WTH? < 1271100890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheepshaver? < 1271100893 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well.. the generated intermediate code looks right, it might be I've just messed up when constructing a call to Space.put_at. < 1271100911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, macos classic ppc emulator < 1271100929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm sure I mentioned that when I was working on porting ick to it < 1271100940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that mostly worked apart from some compiler bugs in MPW < 1271100946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I've completely forgotten. < 1271100966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. < 1271100968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How do you identify JITable regions in Befunge? < 1271100981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think this program relies on 0 being gotten when you pop from an empty stack. < 1271100997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well duh < 1271101000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll redo my stack code a bit after I get some food. < 1271101002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That it is in the docs. < 1271101004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is how it should work < 1271101007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: -it < 1271101016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just forgot about it. < 1271101044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you should add a warning about b93 parts being incomplete ;P < 1271101060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Already is one. < 1271101069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? okay < 1271101084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's a tracing sort of JIT; so I just trace all instructions I execute into a list, and mark those cells as being owned by that trace; then if I at some point end up trying to re-execute cells owned by a trace, I compile that trace instead and execute that. < 1271101136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1271101212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl getting some food too < 1271101231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do some sort of "interpret without tracing unless this bit of code sees multiple executions" heuristics too, I guess. < 1271101289 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But where does a trace begin/end? < 1271101310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Presumably on branches. < 1271101464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: A trace begins whenever I need to execute anything (so the first trace begins at (0, 0)) and ends when I hit something that has been seen before. < 1271101494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something being based on both coordinates and value, I guess? < 1271101533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"something" meaning "a cell registered as being part of an existing trace". < 1271101606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "cell" including both coordinates and value, I guess? :-P < 1271101678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just coordinates, current delta, and "mode", where "mode" can be normal, string-mode, value-mode (for 'x) or comment-mode (for ;). < 1271101738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't that break on p? < 1271101743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't that mean that self-modifying code breaks? < 1271101762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you change the value of a cell that is owned by a trace (no matter what delta it had), then... well, it depends on the mode in that case. For normal mode, I just invalidate the whole trace instead of figuring out if the change is significant; but for something like comment-mode, changes that do not change to/from ; are safe. < 1271101814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1271101818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think for value-mode I update the value stored in the trace, and delete any already compiled code, but keep the trace. < 1271101823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically "p is slow mode". < 1271101845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though I was thinking I might do a compile-time "unsafe p" mode that you can use for programs that don't self-modify. < 1271101882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the sounds of things your JIT will only be slow when you're modifying something that will then be executed. < 1271101889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, you're invalidating 0 traces. < 1271101905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which will then be executed 0 more times. < 1271101920 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though there's still some overhead in checking for trace-ownership. < 1271101928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1271101985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are additional complications in that I compile constant-coordinate p's into a direct memory references, and I have to record those in the space too, so that if I ever trace some coordinate that's being referred by compiled code directly, I have to invalidate that compiled code, because it could do unsafe p on that stop. < 1271102017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spot.* < 1271102027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271102054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also a bit hypothetical description since things are more or less broken at the moment. < 1271102059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1271102284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, back to the "put" problem. It compiles what's essentially "\0p" into the intermediate code "r3 <- STACK", "r4 <- STACK", "p 0, r3, r4" where the p args should be first-pop-on-left. That doesn't look quite correct; because of the \ there, the first pop from stack (to r3) should end up as the last argument to p. < 1271102340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Are there any notable *Unefunge* 98 interpreters? :P < 1271102433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now it puts V to (Y,X) instead of (X,Y) like it should; but *that* was just because I put the arguments in the wrong order in llbuild.CreateCall4. < 1271102658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1271102668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRACE: executing trace 0x1e312f0, in entry 2, stack: 2 2 0 < 1271102669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jitfunge llvm runtime: impossible < 1271102669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault (core dumped) < 1271102671 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not quite it. :p < 1271102674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1271102711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, what if a trace is invalidated _while it is running_? < 1271102780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In that case I terminate running it; there's an "exit" out of a branch (with the delta that it had during the tracing) after each p, and same for all A..Z fingerprint-ops, since you never know about those; and a few others that could invalidate traces too. < 1271102797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you fix your stack? < 1271102801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271102820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jitfunge llvm runtime: impossible <-- I disagree < 1271102829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *is* possible < 1271102832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just needs a lot of work < 1271102844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1271102849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That was also a bit hypothetical, I'm afraid: < 1271102850 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ grep -i suicide *.cc < 1271102851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interp.cc: /*! \todo handle: put on current trace - suicide */ < 1271102863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271102886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *was* handled properly in some earlier iteration of jitfunge codebase, though. < 1271102892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for those cases where it was buggy. < 1271102911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could probably figure it out directly for constant put, while doing some more checking for when both x and y coordinates are unknown < 1271102930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some cases even if x or y is unknown but the other is known you can compute if it is can ever intersect < 1271102962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already do it sort-of directly for constant put, but that brings the added hassle that if later the code it p's to is executed, the decision needs to be reconsidered. < 1271103031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not yet. < 1271103054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll probably go ahead and make it a little cleaner-looking. < 1271103086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that may take some time < 1271103091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How's Mycology with your current iteration < 1271103096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh. < 1271103103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry) < 1271103107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no offence meant) < 1271103116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just the chance for that joke was too good to miss) < 1271103127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh also I think crashing on an invalid program is a bad idea. < 1271103132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just my two euros < 1271103171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I haven't been morbid enough to try. < 1271103177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271103233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: < 1271103240 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < 1271103240 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: , works < 1271103241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G < 1271103244 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :codegen.cc:275: [compile] not handled: 46 < 1271103245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G? < 1271103256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hah. < 1271103260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is 46? < 1271103263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The llvm codegen is really rudimentary. < 1271103264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, about? < 1271103270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the mangled idiom? < 1271103274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Crashing on invalid programs. < 1271103281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ascii 46, so it's "." < 1271103297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, The point is there is no such thing as invalid befunge code to my mind < 1271103305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course to 93 devs it might appear different < 1271103322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but... how did it output the numbers then? < 1271103342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You're off to a good start! < 1271103343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Those were probably output by the tracing interp. As was the "G" there. < 1271103349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch < 1271103369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how stable is the tracing interpreter? < 1271103372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For typical print loops, the first , is executed by the tracer, before it hits the loopy part; at that point it tries to compile the trace and hits problems. < 1271103393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so you can't handle >:#,_ yet? < 1271103409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure I can, as long as there is nothing in the trace that it can't compile. < 1271103413 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It runs hello-world just fine. < 1271103418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1271103420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit noisily, perhaps, but otherwise fine. < 1271103448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw you realise what with this "two different implementations" thing, you need to test mycology both for the tracer and for the actual jit < 1271103476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't think mycology expects , to work once and then stop working the next time < 1271103509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The readme states that things are generally assumed to work an arbitrary number of times if they worked once :-) < 1271103520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how can you say "GOOD: , works"? < 1271103521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably true, but the architecture doesn't really let me test it only for the actual JIT. It would be borderline trivial to test only the tracing part, though. (Just drop all traces after generating them.) < 1271103530 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: How? < 1271103534 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just so. :-P < 1271103535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, after all you can't see that it was actually output < 1271103558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it could have been faked, Hard coded to always output those letters in a cycle forever ;P < 1271103558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wasn't output, it's not GOOD, now is it. < 1271103579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but then it wouldn't output the other things correctly. < 1271103589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271103590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/vPefjzpw -- jitfunge running hello.b98. < 1271103618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it could be hardcoded to just output mycology, as a huge printf() to insert date and random randomness values and such < 1271103646 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mycology isn't meant to be a Turing test... < 1271103694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The use case is an interpreter dev or general Befunge enthusiast, not somebody actively trying out nonsense to see how many GOODs he can get :-P < 1271103715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1271103755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is mycology re-entrant? < 1271103789 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, (0,0) and thereabouts can have various values after an execution < 1271103823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shared code/data thing of Befunge makes many JITy things quite messy. For example, if a p instruction ends up growing the borders, I need to recheck all wrapping traces just in case some of those might happen to intersect with that bit. (Since the cell ownership records are only there up to the borders.) < 1271103840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1271103843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I mark all spaces owned by a trace (because otherwise I wouldn't notice changes in them by p), so slowdown will probably totally break jitfunge. :p < 1271103853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it would be the perfect way to test jitfunge though in both modes < 1271103878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how will it break it? < 1271103902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just use a loader, hacking the JIT so it doesn't drop traces that were overwritten by an i :-P < 1271103953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe it won't; I don't know exactly how it works. If it jumps directly to the far-away bits, then it won't. But if it traverses a huge number of spaces, jitfunge will end up using quite many bytes of memory for each of them. < 1271104002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It jumps directly, since that's easier to write. (Just subtract the x pos from the target pos) < 1271104127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, "jitfunge llvm runtime: impossible" is what the code says when you call a compiled trace and give it an entry point that doesn't actually exist. If I just knew why it was doing that... < 1271104239 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271104443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, try gdb? But that may not help with JITing < 1271104638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that some bit of code has been adding entry points to the trace without invalidating the compiled code. (It needs to not flush stack and not stack-fold over those, and in any case the jump table at the beginning needs to contain the new entry points.) < 1271104733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /*! \todo recompile if next->compiled */ < 1271104744 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, I don't think that actually invalidates the compiled code. < 1271104752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271104755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously I need a DWIM-capable compiler. < 1271104781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sin < 1271104783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271104785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* < 1271104788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that what you are writing < 1271104791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no? < 1271104967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segfaulting now. HOORAY. < 1271105091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack_push 9, -1876564017 on stack < 1271105094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hell? < 1271105144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... The first stack access... < 1271105175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. stack_init is not returning a stack. XD < 1271105228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking! < 1271105264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the sanity check... Outputs "0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ". < 1271105285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit insane. < 1271105290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tak... yeah < 1271105306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1271105406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just off by one. < 1271105496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now mycology fails. :( < 1271105614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so from today's experiences we can deduce that befunge interpreters generally develop _backwards_ in time < 1271105644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bufsz is 0... How is bufsz 0? < 1271105649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(generalized from at least two examples, here) < 1271105652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, because it is zero? < 1271105671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it was set to that at some point < 1271105678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It never was. < 1271105681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was initialised to 1024. < 1271105691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the only thing that modifies it doubles it. < 1271105692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gdb watchpoint then < 1271105708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you double it enough times... < 1271105732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so from today's experiences we can deduce that befunge interpreters generally develop _backwards_ in time <--- no because sanity.bf comes before mycology.b98 < 1271105816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, it's actually doubling that much. < 1271105823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which scares me. < 1271105850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is doing something wrong then < 1271105875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now now, don't leap to conclusions < 1271105875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271105876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure you didn't mix up * and ^? < 1271105886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or even * and ↑ < 1271105897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's better. < 1271105903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1271105916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Wrong test for when to resize the stack. < 1271105929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 0! != 1 < 1271105933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I hope is simple. < 1271105979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. Passing Mycology again. < 1271105988 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not mycorand.bf < 1271106023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BAD: 0! != 1 <-- how the? < 1271106049 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the first I know of to have triggered that one. < 1271106050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how could just fixing stack underflow cause that? < 1271106061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why did you test it then? < 1271106065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Typo. < 1271106070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It was a typo. < 1271106087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, presumably it is a fatal error? < 1271106109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If I tested only things that ever failed in CCBI Mycology would be less than half its current size :-P < 1271106111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1271106179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, you seem uninterested in adding things no one fails at < 1271106183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I suggest things < 1271106216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, the prime number thing is borken. < 1271106225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It thinks everything is prime. < 1271106235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how the fuck < 1271106236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In this case, since later parts of Mycology depend on !, it has to be tested. < 1271106245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay < 1271106245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I wish I knew. < 1271106262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do the other ones work? life.bf, wumpus and so on? < 1271106282 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be amusing < 1271106288 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unlikely < 1271106294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? If everything was prime? :D < 1271106310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the others worked < 1271106316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271106324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it passes mycology < 1271106406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a gigantic trace. < 1271106415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh < 1271106453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, from cfunge it would be too, Since it implements befunge98 and that has 32-bit (or more) cells. So that program just goes on and on and on < 1271106524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That's* better. < 1271106564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what caused it? < 1271106571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/iZVC < 1271106596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Reversed order of arguments for %. < 1271106622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271106646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, this no longer segfaults on pi.bf < 1271106658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't *do* anything, but it no longer segfaults. < 1271106689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm < 1271106770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once again, though. Are there any notable Unefunge '98 programs or interpreters? < 1271106823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, iirc ccbi can run it < 1271106860 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect Unefunge '98 would be much easier to compile efficiently is the thing... < 1271106872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is still selfmodifying < 1271106878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271106881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know any programs in it at all < 1271106928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bit about being 2-d makes things a bit harder, what with needing smart data structures and all that. < 1271106942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, your current program is broken I think < 1271106948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wumpus no longer works < 1271106954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Not sure why. < 1271106958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I think read char perhaps? < 1271106965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible. < 1271106977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though rot13 still works. < 1271106977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no < 1271106988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :robot.b93 still works < 1271107069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this is also broken: http://sprunge.us/QVgW (fib.bf) < 1271107075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usage: give a number, hit enter) < 1271107091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./cfunge ../examples/fib.bf < 1271107091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 < 1271107091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :34 < 1271107108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is what should happen < 1271107123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what actually happens? < 1271107132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that a can be changed to 91+ < 1271107136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is still broken < 1271107141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it outputs lots of zeros < 1271107151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1271107160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait now it works < 1271107163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heisenbug < 1271107175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it does a lot of nothing. < 1271107189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, input. < 1271107204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1271107208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, whole lot of 0s here. < 1271107254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well first changing it from a to 91+ didn't fix it < 1271107255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it did < 1271107272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so consider it a non-reproducible heisenbug < 1271107279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a is b98) < 1271107294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, "a"? Ah. No wonder it does a whole lot of nothing. < 1271107333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. It's just wumpus. And I got nothing. < 1271107357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, on wumpus? < 1271107360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, trace it < 1271107364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get it ignoring my inpu t < 1271107367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :input* < 1271107374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, trace it and compare to last working trace < 1271107383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg pull the old revision < 1271107404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or however you do that with hg) < 1271107409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying that these valgrind errors list "HeaderFileFromTheLibrary.h:1234" for an error inside my function when the error happens in an inlined function; because then it doesn't list the line number where in my function it happens. < 1271107422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll futz with it later. < 1271107429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, --db-attach=yes < 1271107433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and do bt < 1271107458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heck valgrind should provide a bt too < 1271107492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It does provide a backtrace, but the problem is that it's an inlined function, there's no call there. In place it lists something like: < 1271107494 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==14642== by 0x4EA678: CodegenLLVM::compile(Trace*, TList*, int) (Function.h:126) < 1271107521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where CodegenLLVM::compile is my function, but Function.h:126 is some inlined thing inside LLVM's Function.h header. < 1271107539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it doesn't list the spot in the CodegenLLVM::compile function where the error actually happens. < 1271107594 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdb's backtrace somehow manages to list it properly, though, so --db-attach=yes helped. < 1271107834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit unsure on how I managed to get an "Invalid write of size 8" in llvm::Function's constructor, though. It refers to a block free'd by llvm::Function's destructor earlier, but (if I understood the LLVM docs right) it should be safe to say "delete fun" where fun is a llvm::Function*; the destructor should remove all references to the function. < 1271108000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it only removes all references held by the function, and I need to call fun->eraseFromParent(); instead. < 1271108002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Can't help you there. Too much C++ nonsense < 1271108010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This method unlinks 'this' from the containing module and deletes it." < 1271108040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it's C++ nonsense, per se; it's more about LLVM's garbage-collection memory-handling nonsense. Which probably makes an amount of sense, I'm just very unfamiliar with it. < 1271108115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it fixed that particular problem at least. < 1271108199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one "Invalid read of size 1" in llvm::JIT::getPointerToFunction still, and it's from address "0x8", which "is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd"; well, that's not a surprise, but I doubt it should refer to 0x8 anyhow. < 1271108223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271108255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you know, I would have been able to tell that you wrote that line even without the nick at front. < 1271108265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes you have a very distinctive style < 1271108271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really pinpoint what it is < 1271108484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %stack2 = phi i32* [ %entry_stack, %FunEntry ], [ , %Code11 ] ; [#uses=1] < 1271108492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The might not be what I want. < 1271108609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to get a bit confused if there's an entry point immediately after a _ branch. < 1271108987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ echo '(hello)S' | ./jitfunge ../underload.b98 2>/dev/null < 1271108988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unterminated (. < 1271108992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't crash... < 1271109072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is one step forward < 1271109084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also: try mycology, it tells you when something is wrong < 1271109097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is probably saner to make it pass a bit further first < 1271109168 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess so; though it's a bit of a big program, long traces to look through. < 1271109326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well getting mycology going a bit of the way should help < 1271109345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should at least add the , there. :p < 1271109438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ., I mean. < 1271109527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1271109542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ ./jitfunge ../../jitfunge_old/jitfunge/myco/mycology/mycology.b98 2>/dev/null < 1271109542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < 1271109542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: , works < 1271109542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault (core dumped) < 1271109545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, it got worse. < 1271109664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = (struct llvm::Function *) 0x0 < 1271109667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably why. < 1271109673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, backtrace is useful? I'm surprised < 1271109690 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as you bother stepping out of the LLVM internals, sure. < 1271109705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what if it crashes in generated code? < 1271109717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it'll probably be less helpful. < 1271109745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271109753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 < 1271109753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: , works < 1271109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: : duplicates < 1271109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: empty stack pops zero < 1271109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 2-2 = 0 < 1271109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: | works < 1271109756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 0! = 1 < 1271109758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault (core dumped) < 1271109760 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, it got further. < 1271109761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271109762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soon it'll be too long to paste here. :p < 1271109820 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crashes when compiling a !. < 1271109870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271109895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for bug testing maybe you should make it always compile the trace even the first time < 1271109911 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you happen to have a pasted mycology output somewhere? (Though I guess I could just run it with some real interpreter.) < 1271109923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sec < 1271109925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mycology comparison page links to .txts for reference output < 1271109930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iki.fi/deewiant and browse. < 1271109947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://sprunge.us/KFKR < 1271109947 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First column of the table IIRC. < 1271109951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, those are links. I didn't notice. :p < 1271109958 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was there already, but only saw the fancy table. < 1271110012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case I think I remember by heart that it tries 7! = 0 next < 1271110021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know what's after that, though. < 1271110029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right; it was compiling the "7!" bit, and I had used regs[arg->value] directly, whereas I should've used get_arg_value(arg), because for the "7!" case arg->value had a constant 7 instead of a register number. < 1271110038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = {arg = 7, c = 1 '\001'} < 1271110092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 7! = 0, followed by a "Gcodegen.cc:263: [compile] not handled: 42". < 1271110106 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be *? < 1271110110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271110115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs to multiply numbers anyway? < 1271110117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271110233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also my - instruction subtracts values the wrong way around, eh-heh. < 1271110245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't you make that "2-2 test unsymmetric? Didn't we talk about this?-) < 1271110261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how you people manage these symmetry failures, I don't think I've ever coded one :-P < 1271110276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1271110287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have so many intermediate data structures, I can't be expected to remember which way I've put the arguments in there. < 1271110299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your fault for overengineering :-P < 1271110306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1271110324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I was accused of underengineering when it wasn't trivial to switch backends. :p < 1271110333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-P < 1271110347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 8*0 = 0 < 1271110347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: # < jumps into < < 1271110347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: \ swaps < 1271110347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gcompiler.cc:334: [compile] unknown op in intermediate compiler: 96 < 1271110362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96... it's before a... dunno < 1271110370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the backtick. < 1271110376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1271110382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did it compile the \ btw? < 1271110391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or just trace it? < 1271110417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as I said you might want to actually compile these all the time during this phase of development < 1271110424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does compile \. It doesn't generate any code for \, though. < 1271110432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a matter of swapping register names, after all. < 1271110433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well that could be an issue < 1271110437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271110456 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, it doesn't need to. If there's a stand-alone \, it will create two stack pops and two stack pushes. < 1271110545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it seems to compile out some of mycology's tests too, since the arguments to _s are constant. < 1271110587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm. You know this will be a problem, that it won't test the "we don't know the value at all" case < 1271110596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it won't test "constant one" < 1271111109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's in fact almost three different implementations for many instructions, because the intermediate-form compiler does constant-folding. It's a leftover from the non-LLVM backend days. These days I could disable all that and let LLVM's IRBuilder and/or optimizer do it directly. < 1271111123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 01` = 0 < 1271111123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 10` = 1 < 1271111123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... then an infinite loop. < 1271111138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, infinite loop of what? < 1271111144 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271111147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of no output. < 1271111161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, so not of those two lines repeating? < 1271111169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, those came just once. < 1271111176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"GOOD: 900pg gets 9" is supposed to come next. < 1271111200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly it seems to be an infinite loop not in generated code. < 1271111205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how if your fungespace implemented? < 1271111207 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an excuse for using (0,0) there, since it makes the code 6 chars shorter. < 1271111211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, quad tree? hash table? < 1271111222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :P < 1271111236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Which actually matters in the Befunge-93 area. < 1271111239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a regular hash table at the moment. < 1271111244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah < 1271111264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you generate 64 bit code nowdays? < 1271111293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and how hard would switching to that be? < 1271111300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you still generate 32-bit < 1271111309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be pretty trivial with LLVM. < 1271111310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm would do some of the work < 1271111321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you still have to care about type sizes to some extent < 1271111327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the previous manual code-generator did that, with a set of 32-bit #ifdefs. Currently I think it generates 64-bit code; it's really pretty abstracted. < 1271111340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use 32-bit cells currently, but that's just a two-line change. < 1271111350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah, when I last saw the old one it was 32-bit only < 1271111372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's been one or two iterations in-between, more or less borken. < 1271111524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much easier is it using the llvm backend? < 1271111665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat. I can't really quantify it much. Not terribly much; I had a reasonably similar assembly-generating class in the old jitfunge, though LLVM's IRBuilder is a bit more nicer to use. And at least I don't have to spend time adding features to it whenever I need something I haven't needed before. < 1271111677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The infinite loop seems to be in (427, 17) with delta (-1, 0); there's a space there, and for some reason it just refuses to move on. < 1271111716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wonders why your x coordinate is so high. < 1271111789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should it wrap around close to these parts? I guess it might, but not before the 900pg test. < 1271111802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right after the 900pg, IIRC. < 1271111808 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my wrapping's completely untested. < 1271111820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your wrapping won't work. ;-) < 1271111822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/untested/broken/ < 1271111957 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My phrasing was more gentle. < 1271111967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and? < 1271111973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And inaccurate. < 1271111978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271111990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was broken then? < 1271112007 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably; I haven't exactly figured out yet how. It might also just get lost somehow. < 1271112101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka broken ;P < 1271112166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It enters row 17 at column 13 (from row 16), then the next traced X coordinates are: 12, 11, 9, 8, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13; then at (12,17) with delta (-1,0) it compiles something, comes out of it at (5,17) still moving backwards, traces a single $ instruction, and after that trace has been finished it suddenly is there in (427,17). < 1271112196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The $ there on that line looks as if it's supposed to wrap there. < 1271112242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how did it mirror there? < 1271112369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an _ at column 6; it hits that, prints something, goes to the < at 13, then enters a print loop. < 1271112393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's okay so far; then it starts tracing from the _ leftwards, reads the $, and should wrap somewhere. < 1271112409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead it ends the trace and comes out of the trace function at column 427. < 1271112409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly not to column 427. < 1271112421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess you could call that broken, if you were so inclined. < 1271112507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1271112541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The cardinal movement thing wraps by setting the X coordinate to the largest Y value. :p < 1271112553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1271112583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrmm, well: < 1271112584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, if your line count is 427, your Mycology is very old or you're doing something else wrong. < 1271112591 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is very old. < 1271112596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :../../jitfunge_old/jitfunge/myco/mycology/mycology.b98 < 1271112603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are bugfixes in the new ones, you know? :-P < 1271112628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now, at least this looks interesting: < 1271112635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 01` = 0 < 1271112635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 10` = 1 < 1271112635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GGBG < 1271112635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: a pushes 10 < 1271112635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: b-f push 11-15 < 1271112636 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: [ turns left < 1271112638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: ] turns right < 1271112639 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GGBG < 1271112640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: instructions between ; are skipped < 1271112642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUBAD: k reflects < 1271112644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And BUBAD. < 1271112644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUBAD! < 1271112665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'might want to check out the latest. < 1271112666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bubu-bubad to the bone. < 1271112667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271112691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have to go to sleep, wake-up time at something like 05am "tomorrow"; will continue this hilariosity later. < 1271112712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Now that you're around k, bear in mind that that Mycology will probably disagree with the current one about it. < 1271112727 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I think that 427 lines implies somewhere around release one or two. < 1271112746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, I might not have something that old under revision control. < 1271112747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll get a new one, don't you worry. Though the GGBG and BUBAD lines are what I'll look at first. < 1271112772 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should say "Befunge-98 detected" and stuff before it goes to a. < 1271112805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for fun, I'll try the newest one too. < 1271112844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no changes so far; it's still GGBG BUBAD. I guess you haven't changed this early bits significantly. < 1271112864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not significantly. < 1271112870 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe not at all up to that point.) < 1271113247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think from this we can learn that Befunge is just plain hard to implement at all. < 1271113276 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a bit of a gap between "implement" and "JIT compile" < 1271113299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but even B93 gave me some trouble. :P < 1271113322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, what I was doing *was* a not-very-good threaded code compiler. But still. < 1271113357 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Half your problem was writing threaded code in C the first time around :-P < 1271113381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271114070 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271116227 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271117186 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any reasons not to use Scala? < 1271117315 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have jvm them yes < 1271117649 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I knew stinkhorn was slow at the `y' instruction, but... wow < 1271117684 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17500 times as slow as ccbi2 < 1271117733 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really considered the allocation strategy on the stack stack since I just used STL containers. < 1271117749 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, I tried a pool allocator, but I didn't try allocating in bigger chunks) < 1271117949 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is starting to like Scala < 1271117978 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can trim the funge space memory usage significantly, too - allocating a whole fungespace page for writing only a few cells is wasteful < 1271118064 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271118083 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271119603 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271120109 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271121331 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271122330 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271123021 0 :manager!sipher@core.elitter.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271123026 0 :manager!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.penisland.us < 1271123036 0 :manager!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271123075 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271123748 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That site is both not Pen Island, and surprisingly penis-free. (Although not at all porn-free) < 1271125312 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-224-46.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271125342 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271126724 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271128018 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271128044 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271128151 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-224-46.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271128716 0 :nooga!~nooga@c140-237.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271128882 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271129820 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271129832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's a really easy trick I could use to remember things really well. < 1271129840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I think of one, I'll let you guys know. :P < 1271129946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Power Grid < 1271129978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decent board game. < 1271129987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a song by Jerry Martin? < 1271129994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, alas, it's a board game. < 1271129999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a board game. < 1271130026 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A player bought a plant for 121 Electro.. then lost to a player who had /exactly/ enough money to end the game < 1271130203 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: Doesn't matter that ANGEL is supposed to store my work. Save anyway. < 1271130226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Hahah. < 1271130268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing was he would have won if he had just stopped bidding and bought a different power plant for cheaper, paid a little more for resources (it was the fusion plant) and bought himself a winning city < 1271130373 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is.. self-slappingly annoying < 1271130397 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: hmm? < 1271130434 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did some homework a while back, put it on the school site through which my professor receives homework < 1271130454 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Professor did not receive homework. I don't know if I saved, but if I did, I don't see any evidence of such < 1271130462 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1271130480 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really start a git repo for my homework < 1271130803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do it on paper! < 1271130820 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must admit I sort of like being a Luddite. < 1271130934 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd lose the paper < 1271130943 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1271130947 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in Sgeo_'s boat < 1271130965 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't lose the paper, I'd leave it in an easy-to-remember but inaccessible place. :P < 1271130995 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you see me taking notes in class, it's either because I'm taking them for someone else [probably a female], or because I hope that the physical action of writing helps memory somehow < 1271131049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you see me taking notes in class, they are incomprehensible to anyone but me. < 1271131088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's gotten worse with the addition of kanji to my idiosyncratic script... < 1271131105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, study the etymologies of Chinese characters. < 1271131116 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if his professors would allow him to take notes on his phone.. < 1271131134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I have a bit. < 1271131135 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you'll have tons of little fragments of writable stuff. < 1271131140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fairly interesting. < 1271131146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: only if your phone is an iPad. :P < 1271131147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, I know 2,000 kanji. < 1271131156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have tons of fragments of writable stuff. < 1271131156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271131158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. When did you start learning those things? < 1271131168 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kanji. < 1271131169 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I'm perfectly willing to use the keyboard of a Nexus One < 1271131186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start? Few years ago. Go hardcore and actually learn them well? 2.5 months ago. < 1271131193 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1271131221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby decree that I did precisely the same thing with Lojban's gismu. < 1271131233 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did something similar with Haskell < 1271131234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helpful, no? < 1271131254 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although my hardcore Haskell phase seems to be ending < 1271131276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I mentioned wondering if there was a really easy trick I could use to remember things really well. Here's a hinty thing: "Unless your emotions are somehow involved with your brain in any subject you are looking at, you will learn nothing about it." --David Seabury < 1271131290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to be confused with David Sedaris, who is some guy I'm actually familiar with. < 1271131320 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271131374 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the most suitable emotion is terror < 1271131436 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ohmygodohmygod. This word means 'run'. What if someone yells 'ko bajra' at me because a bomb's about to go off and I don't understand and it explodes and I DIE?" < 1271131854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1271131923 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/793455--for-those-who-cannot-see-erotica-in-3-d <3 Canada < 1271131947 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would ask for help finding his homework, but somehow, I don't think anyone other than myself can help < 1271132387 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to switch to Linux so I can grep < 1271132631 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271132711 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271132913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271134195 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blabs < 1271135212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This soundtrack contains a song called "The Kill Ring". < 1271135223 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, that's an Emacs reference. < 1271135446 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271135707 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271136204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wonder if there's a really easy trick I could use to remember things really well. < 1271136212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew one once, but i forgot it. < 1271136482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1271136494 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :golf < 1271136499 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's augur ? < 1271136535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a linguist < 1271136551 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's who anyway? :D < 1271136562 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "Whp < 1271136569 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My name is Adrian. < 1271136571 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I no type can. < 1271136583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "who's who on #esoteric" book would probably sell well. < 1271136589 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271136595 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so true < 1271136617 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's his connection to me? I apparently know him, but I'm not sure how, in his IRC incarnation. < 1271136676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how should i know, i've never seen _you_ before yesterday... when you were "idle for 41 days". how did you _manage_ that? < 1271136715 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing _underlined_ text in a terminal is so _cool_ < 1271136722 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm often busy. < 1271136748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also are you from norway? i knew a Lamo at university. < 1271136772 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm in a troll mood < 1271136788 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do norwegians actually believe in trolls? < 1271136789 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/09.08.19 < 1271136798 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what brought me here. < 1271136801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: i'm sure there are _some_ < 1271136871 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :near Bodo < 1271136928 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. This isn't helping. < 1271136931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got that Trolltech thing, at least. < 1271136955 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log linked above implies that I know augur elsewhere via another name. < 1271136974 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to connect the two nodes. < 1271137005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adrian^L: well "come to defcon" was mentioned < 1271137020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adrian^L: he used to go as psygnisfive btw < 1271137041 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That answers everything. < 1271137048 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, oerjan :) < 1271137058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome :) < 1271137083 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disorganized ex-crime owes you a favor ;> < 1271137091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1271137113 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why whoops? < 1271137126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds scary :D < 1271137144 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ought not. < 1271137185 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why have this channel here, as opposed to, say, 2600Net? < 1271137220 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wny not freenode? < 1271137224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask the founder, who disappeared years ago < 1271137308 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mumble. < 1271137641 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode is awesome, if you've want to talk about softwarem say XYZ, you go to a channel #XYZ on freenode and someone is there < 1271137666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost always < 1271137682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I've unfortunately not ever found a channel for discussion of gaming < 1271137703 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./j #sex < 1271137727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software exchange < 1271137844 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just try it ;d < 1271138993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adrian^L: So, you have a Wikipedia article. Niceness. < 1271139022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crappy reasons to get it, but hey. :P < 1271139253 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271139286 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271139747 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271139777 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think CCBI --befunge93 has a bug with regards to ';' (semicolon) < 1271139881 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, but fbbi -93 seems to also do the same ... shouldn't they only skip "; ... ;" when in 98 mode?? < 1271139902 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CCBI doesn't skip but reflects back, which can't be right in 93 mode) < 1271140080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't reflecting back be right? IIRC the Befunge-93 spec doesn't specify at all what should be done if trying to execute an undefined opcode, and ; is not defined there. < 1271140109 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well none of the other 93 interpreters I'm trying seem to reflect, so ... < 1271140143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's still not exactly forbidden. < 1271140158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly many 93 interps treat non-defined ops as nops. < 1271140189 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the original (although it whines without -q) < 1271140443 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140444 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140445 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140445 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140445 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140446 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140446 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140447 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140447 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140448 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140448 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140449 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140449 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140555 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-52-8.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-28-99.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :lifthrasiir!M58WNbag@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140555 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140571 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1271140611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140611 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140611 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140612 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140612 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140613 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140613 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140613 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140613 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271140647 0 :nooga!~nooga@c140-237.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-224-46.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :atrapado!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :Adrian^L!adrian@phalse.2600.COM JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140647 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271140673 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1271140694 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1271141094 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1271141125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271142052 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271145599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271145600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271145834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1271145973 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271146002 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Esolang wiki on Befunge really needs revising < 1271146020 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least somebody added an interesting link lately: "Marsh" ( http://github.com/serprex/Befunge ) < 1271146049 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my P4, it's pretty fast (GCC-compiled), not so much my other cpus < 1271146184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had some talk about Marsh here. < 1271146200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also somewhat broken; the default version doesn't even do "pop 0 from empty stack". < 1271146210 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some issues with the marsh_safe version too. < 1271146222 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99, assumes "/dev/random" exists, fixit.py kludge (which I'm not entirely sure about) < 1271146247 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's obviously not perfect, but it beats the x86 BEFI.COM on this P4 with my lame benchmark.bef < 1271146278 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly more to do with the P4's quirks than anything, other machines are much slower < 1271146322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, re. speed: http://pastebin.com/nfmUUEwq < 1271146340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an actual benchmark.bef for Befunge-93, I'd like to have it. < 1271146344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Befunge interpreter appears to use the same implementation technique, but with different bugs. :P < 1271146357 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "ff" is yours? < 1271146363 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :written in what? < 1271146374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written in C. < 1271146390 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're gonna laugh (or get mad), but here's my "benchmark" (lame, I know): < 1271146391 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :91+:*-:0`#@ #._ < 1271146400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also mostly bug-free: http://pastebin.com/BmmymUz7 < 1271146426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What's the testfile.txt in question? < 1271146452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The Complete Stories, Volume 1, Isaac Asimov. < 1271146460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just wanted some mostly-ascii text.) < 1271146463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1271146480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit un-redistributable that way; perhaps I should've just generated something. < 1271146518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go fetch something off of Gutenberg then. < 1271146534 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for a horrible laugh, read this: http://pastebin.com/QekgWsxT < 1271146614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :156 ./a.out bench.bf 0.00s user 0.00s system 50% cpu 0.006 total < 1271146629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271146692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Mine might behave a bit less optimally in that benchmark, because ff's playfield is actually 256x256; I do wrapping by unsigned-char overflow. So there's more spaces to go through. < 1271146718 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEFI is actually 128*128, and it didn't hurt much there (obviously) < 1271146727 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the point is that GCC is better at P4 than others < 1271146739 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271146741 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, 26 secs. for marshsafe on the same benchmark) < 1271146800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't compare with cfunge, because cfunge doesn't handle EOF right for B93. < 1271146827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reflect on EOF is but one valid behavior, and this ROT13 program assumes -1 = EOF instead) < 1271146846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, need a better benchmark. :/ < 1271146853 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :27.410 secs. < 1271146862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waiting for marshsafe to finish here. < 1271146866 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(marsh.c but without fixit.py crud) < 1271146887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at what fixit.py does. < 1271146913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does your benchmark work properly with non-safe marsh? It seems to pop once from empty stack for the first -, but maybe it doesn't hurt there. < 1271146914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what should the output from this actually be? < 1271146938 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, who me? I think so, yeah < 1271146960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to guess "definitely not 156". < 1271146972 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271146977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, I've found a small testcase that fails. < 1271146981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my system, it outputs 2147483596 at the end; I guess it does -100 until the cell wraps around. < 1271146993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, the only other thing that failed was Hunt the Wumpus. < 1271146994 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :156 sounds a bit like byte-sized stack cell. < 1271146994 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271146996 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's correct < 1271147005 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483596 is correct < 1271147016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since -100 % 256 would be 156 for some values of %. < 1271147045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah. Yeah, it's still on char cells. < 1271147047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :27.680 (marshsafe.c) < 1271147048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme change that. < 1271147053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange, marshsafe doesn't seem to want to finish. < 1271147073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It now outputs -100 immediately. < 1271147087 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. *unsigned* int might help. XD < 1271147101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want signed stack cells, in fact. < 1271147101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not. < 1271147109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it'll output 2^32-100 immediately. < 1271147126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something else wrong there; it should stay in the loop as long as the value is <0, terminating when it wraps. < 1271147172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Any ideas why marshsafe.c still hasn't finished for me? It's been some five minutes or so already. :p < 1271147193 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you compile it? < 1271147217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -o marshsafe marshsafe.c -std=gnu99 -O3 < 1271147224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imma sleep. I'll futz with this in the morning. < 1271147242 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's what I did: < 1271147243 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -std=gnu99 -DFUNGE marshsafe.c -o funge.exe -O2 -mtune=native -fmerge-all-constants -fomit-frame-pointer -fno-gcse < 1271147249 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(slightly modified from makefile) < 1271147258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, that damned -DFUNGE. < 1271147266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most sensible thing ever. < 1271147295 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what cpu? (Core2, perhaps?) < 1271147316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an old-ish Athlon X2. < 1271147332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, "5600+" or some other such silly model name. < 1271147351 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't be that old if it's X2 < 1271147364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why the "-ish". < 1271147381 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why he has #ifdef FUNGE ... what other use is marshsafe.c ????? < 1271147465 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, it still doesn't seem to be doing much; ^c'd it after three minutes. < 1271147475 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try without -O3 < 1271147476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lunch now, will get back to benchmarking after. < 1271147511 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still say CCBI reflecting on ';' in B93 is wrong :-P < 1271147849 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 mins. for CCBI (in B98 mode) < 1271148261 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I think "bef2c -p -o" + GCC ran second fastest on my old P166 < 1271148355 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.5 mins. for "ccbi --befunge93" :-/ < 1271148362 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1271148451 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I've been running an old version of Marsh, apparently it was updated "1 day ago" !! < 1271148457 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-167-40-196.range86-167.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271148481 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(runs Hunt the Wumpus now???) < 1271148647 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems fixit.py is changed, no longer assumes "%rax" is available < 1271148808 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :27.350 secs (marsh), 27.630 secs (marshsafe) ... so not much difference < 1271149029 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, "README" (but in French, go figure) < 1271149211 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, "Bejit" ... perhaps he means JIT for Befunge?? < 1271149214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is around two days old, so I guess it might not be the newest either. < 1271149234 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :April 11th, that's what it says on the Github site < 1271149243 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271149294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, even with your command line "time ./marshsafe benchmark.bef" -- where benchmark.bef has 91+:*-:0`#@ #._ only -- doesn't seem to finish in any sensible time. < 1271149316 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you remember -DFUNGE ? < 1271149327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I copy-pasted what you had. < 1271149340 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, odd ... what GCC? < 1271149340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also eating 100% of CPU. < 1271149351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) 4.4.3 < 1271149356 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100% of an X2??? that can't be right < 1271149376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it goes up to 200%. < 1271149379 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try with -O0 and see if it finishes there < 1271149399 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it definitely should be done in under a minute on a modern cpu < 1271149412 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Uh, I think it's actually because the stack cell type is "long", and long on x86-64 is a bit longer. < 1271149450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try with -m32 as a quick fix. < 1271149479 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes < 1271149500 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's an implementation bug anyways, B93 always has 32-bit stack, right? ;-) < 1271149519 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271149710 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungus and mooz links on Esolangs wiki are broken < 1271149730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, mooz's site has been gone for a long long time now. < 1271149749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, there's something wrong with my current, cleaned-up version of ff; for the rot13 benchmark, http://pastebin.com/30vpMbwN < 1271149792 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is mooz the same as this guy? http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/ < 1271149809 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's a different person. < 1271149834 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, it was the "mtv3" part that confused me < 1271149908 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why ff3 is slower, could be anything < 1271149947 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTV3 is a Finnish television channel; they had a free webspace thing going on way back when, mooz had his site there. < 1271149968 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mtve = MTV Europe (dunno why he chose that nickname) < 1271149977 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, he's here now (he's always here but "not") < 1271151649 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271152618 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271153568 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271155580 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1271155726 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271156122 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271156632 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-224-46.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271157149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, Rugxulo already went? Anyhow, here's a ff3-vs.-marshsafe benchmark: http://pastebin.com/SgBzjEc6 < 1271157233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly different output from the two there. < 1271157240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The blank line) < 1271157296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does jitfunge manage on that one? Seems so simple that it might be able to handle it :-) < 1271157423 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, it prints out 0. :p < 1271157436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271157605 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates a single trace for most of that, containing < 1271157607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entry: 1 < 1271157608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r0 <- STACK < 1271157608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r1 <- - r0, 100 < 1271157608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : STACK <- r1 < 1271157608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r2 <- ` 0, r1 < 1271157608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : STACK <- r2 < 1271157610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entry: 0 < 1271157612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r3 <- STACK < 1271157614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ r3 < 1271157616 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1271157628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for some reason the "end" command loops to entry point 0, not entry point 1. < 1271157700 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The uncompiled trace looks like http://pastebin.com/03uCcPDD < 1271157748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit[0] is the branch to the .@ bit, exit[1] should loop to the beginning, not the if itself. < 1271157905 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM doesn't seem to compile the equivalent C to just return a constant, but the loop completes in 0.00 seconds anyway. < 1271157959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC compiles the equivalent C to an infinite loop; bloody C with its unspecified integer underflow. < 1271157991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another wrapping bug, heh. < 1271158016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, now it prints out 200. < 1271158038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This time the compiled trace is: < 1271158040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entry: 0 < 1271158040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r0 <- STACK < 1271158040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r1 <- - r0, 100 < 1271158040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : STACK <- r1 < 1271158040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r2 <- ` 0, r1 < 1271158041 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ r2 < 1271158043 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1271158044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I tell GCC to optimize based on two's complement semantics? < 1271158112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, -fwrapv. < 1271158135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, it doesn't optimize it into a constant either. < 1271158158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that is "right" in the sense that it should get 200 from that; "r1 <- - r0, 100" means "r1 = 100 - r0", basically, and it's executed with stack of -100. Don't know how I've *again* managed to get arguments in the wrong order. < 1271158175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you fixed that one already? :-P < 1271158183 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so too. < 1271158263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have misfixed it by reordering the stack-pop instruction generation when the fault was in fact in the stack-folding bit. < 1271158296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both compilers have an extra, unnecessary 'test' instruction in the loop, too. < 1271158393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ time ./jitfunge ../../ff/benchmark.bef 2>/dev/null < 1271158393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483596 < 1271158393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.112s < 1271158393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user 0m0.090s < 1271158393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys 0m0.020s < 1271158411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not too shabby. < 1271158412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds about right. < 1271158432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you using LLVM 2.6, by the way? < 1271158435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also quite a lot of tracing IO going out to /dev/null. < 1271158447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is some sort of 2.7, whatever Ubuntu lucid had. < 1271158465 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Version: 2.7~svn20100409-0ubuntu1 < 1271158485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright. < 1271158521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if fixing this broke whatever it was that I misfixed last time. < 1271158532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was something about p, but was it in mycology? < 1271158556 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wasn't, it'll probably turn up in there at some point ;-P < 1271158574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least current version runs mycology with the GGBGs and BUBADs. :p < 1271158762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right; it's most likely because the current LLVM codegen doesn't protect the stack, so popping from empty stack will confuse it. Maybe I'll add a test for that, and figure out how to do the funky segfault-trapping stack with LLVM later. < 1271158805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that it's platform-specific, you can't do it with just LLVM < 1271158824 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe there's a related intrinsic somewhere. < 1271158853 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I probably can hack together something that works on one platform based on what I already have. < 1271158858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest can use a slower stack. < 1271158875 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure if it is faster; depends on the frequency of empty-stack-pops, of course. < 1271158887 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course you can use inline asm to do it however you like platform-specifically. < 1271159132 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I need to create ptrtoint instructions if I want to compare two pointers? < 1271159160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, no. < 1271159165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, icmp can compare pointers too. < 1271159166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think icmp works on pointers. < 1271159177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I just didn't expect, given the interger-sounding name. < 1271159194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the operands are pointer typed, the pointer values are compared as if they were integers." < 1271159416 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271159417 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1271159444 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i had an idea for a 2-command (space (NOP) and non-space (everything else)) esolang < 1271159471 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't think it'll be turing-complete < 1271159479 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though wait, i have an idea how to make it so < 1271159642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Aw. Adding the stack underflow protection made it run completely without valgrind errors, but mycology's still BU-BAD. Must be a bug in my logic, then. (How unheard-of!) < 1271159655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Astonishing! < 1271159685 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I got the underflow-protected stack pop done without having to add more basic blocks in the mix. :p < 1271159692 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSTANTOUS: http://pastebin.com/Ce9GLxdn < 1271159696 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :design draft < 1271159708 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1271159714 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all seen as in < 1271159724 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ being the NORTH of the instruction pointer's direction < 1271159728 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it's heading west, ^ is WEST < 1271159732 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and like that < 1271159763 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think < 1271159776 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSTANTOUS stands for POSition's imporTANT...ous < 1271159860 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/GLafvxmk < 1271159891 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new version of draft < 1271159913 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1271159930 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is i dont think any "this setup might stand for that, and also that" things can be found < 1271160120 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: how about building 8088 based computer using prototype board and wires < 1271160147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had a protoboard and wires < 1271160148 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1271160187 0 :_asw!~johannale@host86-135-218-196.range86-135.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271160213 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/frdr6jm9 < 1271160217 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DRAFT v3 < 1271160228 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm writing BIOS for that thing ;d < 1271160234 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1271160236 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lucky you < 1271160250 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could have a huge wirewrap protoboard < 1271160349 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not lucky, just bored :D < 1271160457 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEW version: http://pastebin.com/why9uvaY < 1271160463 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I want to have a prototype board, wires < 1271160465 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tons of chips < 1271160479 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make a 6502 based computer < 1271160481 0 :_asw!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271160523 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i think i've implemented every combination < 1271160532 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if any other combination is found < 1271160536 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just goes forward < 1271160598 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want a huge wirewrapping protoboard < 1271160600 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wires < 1271160602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wirewrap tools < 1271160604 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and infinity chips < 1271161014 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271161223 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271161497 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271161709 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271161980 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271162094 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271162195 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271162601 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271162810 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271163222 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271163329 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1271163431 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271163705 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271163720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "UNDEF: edge # skips column 80" for ff3; does that mean that a # on the left edge skips the right-most column of the playfield? (I mean, you could be using 0-based column indices there, and mean that a # on right edge "skips" the non-existent column 80 and hits 0, which has the opposite meaning.) < 1271163749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to be confusing :-P < 1271163759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be a first! Uh, I mean... < 1271163768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the former. < 1271163770 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :But I forced it right! | This space intentionally left | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1271163785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, good; that's what I was hoping for, too. < 1271163917 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271163918 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-98-230.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271164085 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did ff3's wrapping by stealing the "border the playfield with two columns/rows of a special 'jump N spaces to the proper direction" idea from mooz, but adapting that to the "code is represented by a playfield-shaped block of jump target pointers" idea from marsh/others -- which means the jump-instructions don't have to worry about someone p'ing them on the playfield ... < 1271164087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and finally twisting that by making the playfield be basically a 84x29x4 array of pointers, where depth equals delta, and I have 4 implementations of each instruction, with a hardcoded "ip += offset; goto *ip;" afterwards. < 1271164130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A representative sample: http://pastebin.com/0ZG5S5cR < 1271164144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's the <>^v implementations.) < 1271164188 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271164198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271164206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you don't like it?-) < 1271164272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now do the equivalent for Befunge-98: keep an w*h*5 array where the fifth is used for noncardinal deltas < 1271164322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could be done, theoretically speaking, but I don't quite feel like it. < 1271164404 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271164538 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271164902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"About NetHack: twilight under the low overhang of the greek gods, and around the egg, keeping it warm and helping it to open any lock...." < 1271164904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surreal. < 1271164932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Nethack ones seem to be the best. < 1271164947 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271164969 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a relatively low-order model, IIRC, so it doesn't quote so much verbatim, instead... innovates more. < 1271165156 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271165568 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271165688 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271165777 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271165799 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271166189 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271166398 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271167014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "op_goleft_right"? < 1271167037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like: Keep left → < 1271167112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now do the equivalent for Befunge-98: keep an w*h*5 array where the fifth is used for noncardinal deltas <-- This would assume static area/AABBs right? < 1271167154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's independent of your storage solution, but it's probably just a pessimization with hash tables. < 1271167196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1271167638 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271167847 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271168119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: op_goleft is the op, and _right is the current delta; so that bit is called when you hit a < while moving right. < 1271168277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what it does is ip -= sizeof(opset) + sizeof(void *); -- subtracting sizeof(opset) moves it one cell left in the code-playfield, and the sizeof(void *) adjustments alters the "depth" so that it will keep going left from then on. < 1271168342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably should've just used a void **ip so that the pointer arithmetic would make that look simpler (ip -= 4+1) there, but, well. < 1271168451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(typedef void *opset[4]; currently.) < 1271168551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271168841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271168857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much do you gain from those 4 pointers thingy? < 1271168866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, compared to doing it a more "normal" way < 1271168910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also why do you store them interleaved? Wouldn't storing the directions separate possibly be better for cache? Well, depends on the type of program < 1271168952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, are you sure that storing a 32 bit offset to some base wouldn't be faster than storing a full 64-bit pointer? Again due to cache < 1271168985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and where can I get the full source of that program? < 1271169013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I'm not sure, but it's still faster than marsh, which is somewhat similar but calls a "move" function via a function pointer after each instruction. < 1271169029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271169048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does += PF_W * sizeof(opset); do? < 1271169057 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PlayField_Width presumably. < 1271169065 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Well, including the borders. < 1271169070 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. move down one Y-coordinate. < 1271169071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so that is the logic for moving to next cell? < 1271169094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm I would have expected it to be in the (presumably) macro IP_GOTO < 1271169117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define IP_GOTO do { trace(); goto **(void **)ip; } while (0); < 1271169121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/;$// < 1271169122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you have to duplicate a lot in about every function < 1271169195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't be in IP_GOTO because it depends on the direction. Most instructions are expanded from a macro, so there it is just "next" which expands to NEXT_LEFT (say) which expands to MOVE_LEFT; IP_GOTO; which expands to ip -= sizeof(opset); IP_GOTO; < 1271169206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so no macro for it? Presumably for the non-direction changing instructions you have stuff like ip -= sizeof(opset);, ip += sizeof(opset); and so on duplicated a lot? < 1271169207 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These direction-changing commands are special, because I need to adjust the distance to change delta. < 1271169216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271169248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the down_down, up_up and so on variants don't need that though < 1271169274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the type of ip? < 1271169277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I just thought they looked aesthetically more pleasing like that, as opposed to having just MOVE_DOWN there. < 1271169327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an unsigned char * at the moment, with casts, but I have been thinking of changing it to void ** which is more right, and would remove some explicit sizeofs thanks to pointer arithmetic rules. < 1271169341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never need to point between the void *s there, after all. < 1271169357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so there it is just "next" which expands to NEXT_LEFT (say) which expands to MOVE_LEFT" <-- err, a lot of indirection in those macros? ;P < 1271169393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes the sizeof thingy confused me. What is opset btw? < 1271169401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (typedef void *opset[4]; currently.) < 1271169410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271169447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, url to this amazing code < 1271169449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically the four pointers to the different-delta implementations of a single playfield cell (or a single instruction, in the ops table). < 1271169453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is still no URL. < 1271169463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any reason not to upload it somewhere? < 1271169493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No particular reason, no. I just don't have a habit of sharing absolutely everything I do. < 1271169512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1271169519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, could you please share this one? < 1271169538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't you a more 98 person, anyway? < 1271169567 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your habits are poor. < 1271169570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is still interesting to study. < 1271169574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to remember how I had my git.zem.fi configured as soon as I finish testing the non-interleaved version. < 1271169590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how many files is it? < 1271169598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One. < 1271169605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then, why not pastebin? ;) < 1271169697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw hypothesis: interleaved will possibly be better for programs turning a lot. It would most likely be better for >:#,_@ style constructs. Non-interleaved will be better for when the program goes in a straight line most of the time. < 1271169721 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271169736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you absolutely must have an intermediate version, http://pastebin.com/ah2NcAgV < 1271169782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? You mean one mixed interleaved/non-interleaved? < 1271169825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the interleaved thing. < 1271169830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good < 1271169833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not release-quality. :p < 1271169854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, TURN()? < 1271169869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns to arbitrary delta. < 1271169879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is it 93 + extras then? < 1271169880 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271169899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, "arbitrary" meaning any of the four cardinal ones not depending on what the ip is now. < 1271169905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a rather curious meaning, but anyway. < 1271169919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh, but why would it be useful for 93? < 1271169935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, ? < 1271169982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm? I use it in ? only, yes. I could have specialized versions of ? for different deltas (they'd look very much like the current op_gofoo_bars) but I didn't think it was so performance-sensitive. < 1271170009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271170019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, high speed random number generators! < 1271170070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh? where is next defined? < 1271170080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a macro parameter. < 1271170083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh duh < 1271170149 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271170286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, out of interest, why if and not switch for op_rand? < 1271170333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No real reason for that either. The if takes perhaps two lines less vertical space. < 1271170344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or three, depending on bracing. < 1271170346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm perhaps < 1271170365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or zero, depending on bracing. :-P < 1271170367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one less but that would be messy < 1271170418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : switch (t) { case 0: TURN(0); NEXT_LEFT; < 1271170418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case 1: TURN(1): NEXT_RIGHT; < 1271170418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case 2: TURN(2): NEXT_UP; < 1271170418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case 3: TURN(3): NEXT_DOWN; } < 1271170419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't need a variable t though, so that line would be removed and it would be rand()%4 in the switch header < 1271170433 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True that. < 1271170441 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So negative one, depending on bracing. < 1271170452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or two less < 1271170458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two? < 1271170468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes, just write two of the cases on the same line < 1271170481 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's getting unreadable already :-P < 1271170483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it was a good idea < 1271170509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't fit in 80 columns. < 1271170513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, memcpy(pfcode[pos], ops[val], sizeof *pfcode); <-- wonderful < 1271170531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's special about that? < 1271170569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did I say it was special? < 1271170578 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said it was wonderful, which is certainly special. < 1271170586 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271170601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271170619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to remove those memcpys for the non-interleaved versions, unfortunately. Updating four far-away locations on each 'p' might hurt. Well, we'll see after some testing. < 1271170638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah hm didn't think about that < 1271170657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, remember to test it on a wide selection of representative b93 programs ;) < 1271170682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pahaha < 1271170688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adrian^L: i should've known it was you < 1271170801 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lordy, did you actually idle in here for a month before you said something? < 1271171157 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271171366 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271171507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271171916 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271171989 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271172125 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271172392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how goes jitfunge now? < 1271172428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how far does it get in mycology and can it run underload.b98? < 1271172434 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUBAD. < 1271172445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, BUBAD? That looks mangled < 1271172457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GGBG. < 1271172469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so , is completely broken or what? < 1271172499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jitfunge has a hard time being "completely broken", it seems to usually be partially broken. < 1271172501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming GGBG was what it output for GOOD < 1271172506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271172510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't. < 1271172516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then what was it? < 1271172522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was GGBG. I don't know why it output it. < 1271172537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271172552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but at what point does it output that? < 1271172553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, seems fine, anyhow. < 1271172557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the logs. < 1271172623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which part of it? < 1271172681 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of the logs? Just grep for GGBG. < 1271172684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1271172694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GOOD: 10` = 1 < 1271172694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GGBG < 1271172694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GOOD: a pushes 10 < 1271172695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271172700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it skips several lines there < 1271172703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell < 1271172774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw: < 1271172777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: a pushes 10 < 1271172777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: b-f push 11-15 < 1271172782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are those separated? < 1271172799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like why not: a-f pushes 10-15 < 1271172803 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, it only checks for reflection on a. < 1271172808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: a pushes 10 < 1271172808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: b-f push 11-15heh < 1271172809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1271172814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kills synergy < 1271172815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that. < 1271172821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh was what I typed < 1271172831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I got a ghost paste in the buffer at the start somehow < 1271172837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or it has a couple of error messages for a, but just that one GOOD/BAD for b-f. < 1271172840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a split second before I hit enter < 1271172849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271172976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on an average of one (1) runs, the difference between interleaving isn't very large: http://pastebin.com/J3YshH7a < 1271172984 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271172997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discount the copy-paste problem that got the compilation and running on the same line. < 1271173002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the benchmark? < 1271173003 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) doesn't tend to work that well, I'd do (2). < 1271173024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw how does that ff3.c handle # in column 80 when going > ? < 1271173027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 91+:*-:0`#@ #._ < 1271173058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh I see. < 1271173076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: UNDEF: edge # skips column 80 < 1271173077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :91+:*, incidentally, is an awfully complicated way of writing "d". < 1271173088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271173103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean, you don't crash due to missing the marker in the padding column < 1271173122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's two column's worth of padding because of that. < 1271173128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh how does 91+:* add up to d? < 1271173134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not d, "d". < 1271173141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1271173146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why < 1271173161 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In -98, the equivalents would be a:* and 'd < 1271173194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I guess it is semantics: Is it used as a char or as a number < 1271173222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, who cares about assigning semantics to stack cells in Befunge :-P < 1271173234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't 91+:*-:0` comparing -100 to 0? < 1271173243 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the first iteration, yes. < 1271173247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1271173269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That code is equivalent to: int s = 0; do s -= 100; while (s <= 0); < 1271173485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unfair to bignum ;P < 1271173517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit unfair to 64-bit cells too, like I noticed when trying to benchmark against marsh, which uses a stack made out of longs. < 1271173552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271173566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how long until you gave up? Or did it finish? < 1271173582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1271173611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is unsure what rough timeframe it would end up in for 64-bit cells < 1271173643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply by 2^32 ~= 4 billion < 1271173650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say 6 seconds for 32-bit. Then we have 6 * 2^32... Ouch < 1271173678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I waited some five minutes or so. < 1271173682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I ran it for about 10 mins in CCBI and cfunge and then realized they were both 64-bit :-P < 1271173698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 817 years < 1271173700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1271173707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only? < 1271173712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long enough anyways. < 1271173718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I could have typoed in units(1) < 1271173718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 6*2^32 seconds in years < 1271173731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what bot? < 1271173732 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 * (2^32) seconds = 816.613247 years < 1271173735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271173750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run type calc < 1271173751 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calc is /tmp/hackenv.15888/bin/calc < 1271173753 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marsh takes 12 seconds on my system; not that another power of 2 matters *that* much. < 1271173756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file bin/calc < 1271173758 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/calc: Bourne-Again shell script text executable < 1271173790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run head bin/calc | tr '\n' '|' < 1271173791 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/bash|if [ ! "$1" ]|then| echo 'Calculate what?'| exit 1|fi||QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %`||lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \| < 1271173811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run grep -i google bin/calc < 1271173812 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | < 1271173815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271173849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1271173853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how long did it take for 32-bit CCBI? < 1271173871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't a 32-bit CCBI binary so I haven't tried. < 1271173877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271173895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, presumably more than 6 seconds though < 1271173960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1271174013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 mins. for CCBI (in B98 mode) < 1271174020 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know what to compare that to, though. < 1271174027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or what version, for that matter. < 1271174043 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Did you notice the part about CCBI reflecting on ; in 93-mode? < 1271174076 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and no need to single out ;, it'll reflect on every non-93 instruction. < 1271174123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, well, he was strongly against that sort of thing. :p < 1271174143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I noticed. :-P < 1271174182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI takes 27 seconds for me here. < 1271174193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-93 only. < 1271174245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Average of 20 runs; not much of a difference: http://pastebin.com/EwDv8J2e < 1271174271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could even have been other stuff on the system, it's not very idle. < 1271174280 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11 seconds in -98; I wonder how that manages to be faster. < 1271174335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it could be the wraparound. < 1271174343 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably is, actually. < 1271174368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes it non-wrappy < 1271174425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, now it's 9 seconds in -93 and 14 in -98. < 1271174453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Befunge-93 loader always makes an 80x25 box, you see. < 1271174472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, IIRC, it uses the same wrapping code as -98. < 1271174486 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for every iteration, the -93 did an extra 70 or so nops. < 1271174554 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff3 does those nops too; haven't bothered to try tracking borders. For non-p-heavy programs it could make sense to put the wrapping instructions around the program, not the whole playfield. < 1271174813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Right, well, he was strongly against that sort of thing. :p <-- who? Rugxulo? And why is he against it. < 1271174868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So for every iteration, the -93 did an extra 70 or so nops. <-- yet it was faster? < 1271174887 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was more than twice as slow. < 1271174892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yeah, now it's 9 seconds in -93 and 14 in -98. < 1271174899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you reversed the order then < 1271174902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notice how the tense changed. < 1271174916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1271174920 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"_Now_ it _is_ [faster in -93]" < 1271174932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The -93 _did_ an extra 70 or so nops" < 1271174948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But, IIRC, it uses the same wrapping code as -98. <-- should have been used there then? < 1271174950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1271174960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The Befunge-93 loader always makes an 80x25 box, you see. <-- or on that line < 1271174971 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1271174972 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271174977 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those remain correct. < 1271174992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so how did you make it faster if you didn't change those < 1271175002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2010-04-13 17:59:04 * Deewiant makes it non-wrappy < 1271175011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271175016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that < 1271175044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then why is 93 mode faster than 98 mode? Completely different mainloop or something? < 1271175057 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, lots of simplifications can be mode. < 1271175059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made. < 1271175086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true but is it worth the code duplication and such? < 1271175116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code duplication would happen anyway, to not slow down 98. < 1271175126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271175162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why @eris? A strange system name to me < 1271175238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't figure out anything else, so used the well-used and -reused Greeks. < 1271175248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271175253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, who was eris then < 1271175265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goddess of discord; also the goddess of discordians. < 1271175266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simplifying the wrapping code brought it down to 16 seconds. Still loses to -98, though. < 1271175271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271175275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION throws AnMaster an apple < 1271175285 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Be careful, you might throw it over his head. < 1271175293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION then whistles innocently < 1271175300 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271175310 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271175311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm not picking up anything _you_ threw. < 1271175323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows, it could be a tick one that sprays water at you or something < 1271175340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Momus, where fungot runs, is another one of those. < 1271175340 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'd be happy to help you with that? < 1271175344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Momus or Momos (μῶμος) was in Greek mythology the god of satire, mockery, censure, writers, poets; a spirit of evil-spirited blame and unfair criticism. < 1271175345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, saved by his natural paranoia < 1271175348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it appropriate for a webserver. < 1271175392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, quite a diverse list < 1271175413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the censure part doesn't seem to fit in < 1271175441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define censure < 1271175443 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* harsh criticism or disapproval \ * reprimand: rebuke formally \ * excommunication: the state of being excommunicated < 1271175537 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271175564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts the apple in oerjan's pocket, picking it up using a long pole with a griping tool at the end < 1271175630 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271175643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why CCBI is about 5-10% faster on underload.b98 when it's got 64-bit cells. < 1271175656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1271175702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fool, it was a golden apple! < 1271175720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :golden delicious, to be precise. *munch* < 1271175721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well the grip was coated in aqua regia. < 1271175747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with a thickening substance added, so you can actually coat with it) < 1271175764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't think that is healthy to eat < 1271175810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got plenty of acid in my stomach already. < 1271175832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271176517 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271177398 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271180311 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271180461 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271180810 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271180863 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271181003 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271181081 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-213-57.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271181188 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271181342 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271181691 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271181831 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271181926 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271181951 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271182128 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271182150 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271182985 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271182994 0 :gapz!~gapz@rennes1.dunnewind.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271183010 0 :gapz!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271183039 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271183106 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-167-40-196.range86-167.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271183480 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271183592 0 :nooga!~nooga@c140-237.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271186767 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271187045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271187713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so how goes it? < 1271188424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which "it"? < 1271188431 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-205-111.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271188848 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@77.49.132.31.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271189932 0 :cat_!~cat@89-179-111-141.broadband.corbina.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1271190767 0 :cat_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271190776 0 :cat_!~cat@89-179-111-141.broadband.corbina.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1271190798 0 :cat_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271191809 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271193336 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271193728 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1271194080 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271194259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet back! < 1271194300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, jitfunge and ff3 < 1271194305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1271194325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and does -fmerge-all-constants really make any difference? < 1271194330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does it still work then? < 1271194346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting half a mind to write a Befunge-98 interpreter. < 1271194358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, BTW, I fixed my Befunge-93 interpreter. < 1271194364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah, link? < 1271194371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Un momento. < 1271194379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/CSZJ < 1271194385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer a memento to be frank ;P < 1271194404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The command line was from Rugxulo's marsh compilation, I just used the same flags to be fair; probably doesn't much matter. < 1271194468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it still counts -128 is not a prime < 1271194482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still valgrind errors too < 1271194493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My funges aren't really going; I'm too flu-ish to work on them. But you can get the latest (optionally non-interleaved) ff3 from http://git.zem.fi/ff if you like. There's also a nasty jitfunge bug I've been trying to track, but probably won't tonight. < 1271194496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, WTF and WTF? < 1271194520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sec < 1271194523 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jitfunge *brain explodes* < 1271194532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Valgrind's stack traces are indeed not very useful for problems in LLVM's JIT'd functions: < 1271194533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==9627== Conditional jump or move depends on uninitialised value(s) < 1271194534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==9627== at 0x4048354: ??? < 1271194534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==9627== by 0x5C22C4C: (below main) (libc-start.c:226) < 1271194541 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it definitely does Wumpus correctly. :P < 1271194550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, http://sprunge.us/iHXP < 1271194581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about gdb? Is it as useless or does llvm do some funky JIT debug info that gdb can read? < 1271194611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and with --db-attach remember to never to s or c! When I did that I had to kill -KILL valgrind < 1271194623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume the same applies to any other continue commands < 1271194660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, that's an easy fix. < 1271194693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, I could attach a debugger, I guess. There's a minor pessimization in the code in that it creates an "entry point" at the end of a (looping) function instead of the beginning; that results in a bit convoluted LLVM assembly, but I don't want to fix it because it would probably hide this bug. < 1271194718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what was the bug with wumpus btw? < 1271194741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I had val1 and val2 as unsigned ints instead of ints. < 1271194757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus screwing up signed comparison. < 1271194759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/LGJX < 1271194772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh that caused wumpus failing? < 1271194776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still getting issues with prime, but no invalid reads outside of libc. < 1271194777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271194788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also caused the failure of a simple benchmark. < 1271194832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I still get negative values in prime? < 1271194854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure. < 1271194858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean that was the still left issue < 1271194859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Heh... if I add the "--db-attach=yes" flag, the error disappears. < 1271194865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, whoops < 1271194872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the still-remaining issue. < 1271194878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm honestly not sure how that's doing wrap-around. < 1271194896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, printf("%d") -> printf("%u") or such perhaps < 1271194898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271194902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't looked at the code < 1271194923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing < 1271194927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf %i? < 1271194935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is %i < 1271194952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Signed integer. < 1271194959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is the issue then :P < 1271194964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not. < 1271194975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271194976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1271194984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. < 1271194999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sticking numbers in fungespace, yes? < 1271195004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes < 1271195013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungespace is a bunch of signed chars. < 1271195018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is that the spec? < 1271195030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Undefined". < 1271195047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does it say it is char even? < 1271195060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an "80x25 torus of ASCII text", that's about all. < 1271195077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it would be entirely valid for that to be 7-bit. < 1271195078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many make it unsigned bytes. < 1271195079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh and it segfaults on pi2 again < 1271195114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 s->buf = realloc(s->buf, s->bufsz); < 1271195116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on that line < 1271195123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** glibc detected *** /home/arvid/dragon/funges/pikhq-bef/pikhq-bef-tux: realloc(): invalid next size: 0x0000000000607010 *** < 1271195126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How odd. < 1271195140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Here's the very useful gdb backtrace on the error: < 1271195142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, valgrind shows a write error before < 1271195143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) bt < 1271195143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0 0x0000000004048354 in ?? () < 1271195143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1 0x00000007ff0002e0 in ?? () < 1271195143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2 0x0000000005c77a3f in _IO_new_file_overflow (f=0x0, ch=-16776704) at fileops.c:889 < 1271195143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#3 0x0000000000000000 in ?? () < 1271195159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1271195169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, disassemble, I guess that is all you can do < 1271195185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I suspect you overwrite malloc bookkeeping data < 1271195190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a hunch < 1271195208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fungespace[val1][val2] = val3; < 1271195217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1271195227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it's just that the disassemblies are a lot more understandable when it's my code generator instead of LLVM's. < 1271195228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you fail at bounds checking? :D < 1271195238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there is no bounds checking. < 1271195241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1271195251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well that is wrong ;P < 1271195266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, it's invoking undefined behavior. < 1271195267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271195268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would do it abs(x) % 80 and so on < 1271195288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, but I consider it a bug to crash on invalid input < 1271195289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go make it do more sane behavior, though. < 1271195292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any app < 1271195313 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271195323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, this is why I'm adding boundschecking. < 1271195328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271195346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I recommend using a fuzz tester btw. It would catch this type of stuff < 1271195382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. < 1271195393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please input a number: 3 < 1271195394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNDEF: got 3 which is hopefully correct. < 1271195394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please input a character: UNDEF: got 10 ' < 1271195394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' which is hopefully correct. < 1271195396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff3 doesn't do bounds checking either, to be honest; it's not like a well-behaved program would need it. < 1271195399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that is how it should work < 1271195405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it might be undef in b93 < 1271195412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's... Issues with that. < 1271195423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's undefined, but yes, I should fix it. < 1271195429 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's undef in b98 as well. < 1271195430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in b98 I'm pretty sure integer input should eat the newline if one follows it directly < 1271195437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it? Huh < 1271195437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Link to fastfunge? < 1271195439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the spec doesn't say that. < 1271195443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Undefined but I should fix it." < 1271195448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "everyone does it"? < 1271195456 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it because it seemed sensible, and since then it seems everybody else does it. :-P < 1271195461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay < 1271195488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you are a trendsetter ;P < 1271195496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep :-P < 1271195499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://git.zem.fi/ff < 1271195517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I get valgrind errors enter a to mycouser as the number < 1271195528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the letter a < 1271195537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==27876== Use of uninitialised value of size 8 < 1271195538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==27876== at 0x4E695CB: _itoa_word (in /lib/libc-2.11.1.so) < 1271195539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: One screaming bug at a time man. :P < 1271195547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, link to bug tracker? < 1271195575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: irc://irc.freenode.com/esoteric < 1271195580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1271195593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well I will write them down in a text file and pastebin that < 1271195776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, okay for me to paste the bug descriptions now? < 1271195793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invalid reads fixed (stupidity in stack regrowing). < 1271195796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/TfeK < 1271195799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycouser.b98: < 1271195800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* valgrind errors on ctrl-d at integer prompt. B98 reflects. Unknown what B93 does. < 1271195800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* valgrind errors on non-numeric data at integer prompt. This might be undef in b93, b98 tends to (defined to?) discard leading non-numeric data, and keep retrying until it get some numeric data. < 1271195803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Resizing. < 1271195824 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that latter one is defined. < 1271195941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only valgrind errors I'm seeing are from libc... < 1271195965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a sneaking suspicion that their printf does crazy stuff. < 1271195987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the ones I see there are itoa < 1271196013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, http://sprunge.us/KbTd < 1271196029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and printf < 1271196047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but that might be because itoa returns some undef value < 1271196052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to you passing it a non-number < 1271196055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible. < 1271196096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh see: < 1271196098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==27931== Uninitialised value was created by a stack allocation < 1271196098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==27931== at 0x400C68: instrs (pikhq-bef.c:153) < 1271196103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with valgrind --track-origins=yes ./pikhq-bef-tux ~/dragon/src/own/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycouser.b98 < 1271196125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's helpful. < 1271196131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes, it is slower too < 1271196139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not noticeable so for this case < 1271196148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that nothing is made at that line. < 1271196157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the stack frame itself. < 1271196157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure it is, the stack frame < 1271196160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, exactly < 1271196169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which means you know which function < 1271196200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh seems to be main one < 1271196222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, point is, I think you do something funky when trying to parse letters as integers < 1271196229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah*. < 1271196247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When that happens, the value ends up being unchanged from what it was. < 1271196249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad pikhq not checking return value of scanf :P < 1271196255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said value is... Undefined. < 1271196315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. ("Don't use scanf()" is my preference, but if you use it you should know the semantics, because then you will decide not to use it) < 1271196321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1271196328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/CJcX < 1271196336 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with scanf? < 1271196351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There it is without odd valgrind errors, and I'll go about fixing the actual *behavior* next time the mood strikes. < 1271196363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know what to fix and how to fix it, just can't be bothered to) < 1271196387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that it is a mess? Especially for reading strings < 1271196394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat less so for integers, but still < 1271196398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it a mess? < 1271196448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I don't know how to explain it. It feels like gets() almost in "eww" level < 1271196463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems fine to me :-P < 1271196467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only way it could be worse would be using global buffers and being non-reentrant < 1271196484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strtok() is that level of ewww < 1271196508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* The strtok() function uses a static buffer while parsing, so it's not thread safe. Use strtok_r() if this matters to you." < 1271196552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'd expect from C :-P < 1271196629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271196654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, testing on random data I get a valgrind error < 1271196659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/JMQU < 1271196664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was on the program itself < 1271196674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I filebin my compiled version? < 1271196704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or can you reproduce it with your own copy? < 1271196775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, *prod*? < 1271196788 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your rush? < 1271196833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? < 1271196840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"*prod*" < 1271196884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know if I should filebin it or go do other stuff < 1271196889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while being afk < 1271196912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I got it to do: < 1271196914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Illegal instruction < 1271196917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"*prod*" generally doesn't help < 1271196921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by running it on /dev/urandom < 1271196922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271196929 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1271196939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see http://sprunge.us/NAIM too < 1271196946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but it still shouldn't crash! < 1271196966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC pikhq was accepting crashes for undefined behaviour < 1271197016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: it crashes on negative values because lookup table go from 0 to 256 < 1271197024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271197026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0-255 < 1271197027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fungespace is signed < 1271197036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it reads below the place it should read < 1271197159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay there are two things. One is somehow loading the file it can end up doing something fishy < 1271197166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other seems to be what I thought < 1271197313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically, using chars in the range 128-255 I think you can cause it to execute any code you want < 1271197339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure how much you can trigger it. Some tests on urandom had it jumping into unmapped address space at one point < 1271197375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28011== Access not within mapped region at address 0xD39AD3D < 1271197375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28011== at 0xD39AD3D: ??? < 1271197375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28011== by 0x400C56: main (pikhq-bef.c:150) < 1271197399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: < 1271197400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28013== Bad permissions for mapped region at address 0x3 < 1271197400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28013== at 0x3: ??? < 1271197400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28013== by 0x400C56: main (pikhq-bef.c:150) < 1271197433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wow I got it to end up inside the valgrind helper itself < 1271197435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28016== Bad permissions for mapped region at address 0x380040B0 < 1271197435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==28016== at 0x380040B0: ??? (in /usr/lib/valgrind/exp-ptrcheck-amd64-linux) < 1271197542 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271197600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You bumped the wumpus." <-- huh I thought you were eaten instead < 1271197615 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are variants. < 1271197628 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271197655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems so < 1271197699 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271197724 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271197763 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271197845 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271198178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, well. Make fungespace signed. < 1271198179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Unsigned. < 1271198213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no idea where that is < 1271198258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, -Dchar="unsigned char"? < 1271198283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nah, would be evil) < 1271198297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/KJTi < 1271198299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thar. < 1271198366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and still this: http://sprunge.us/dJId < 1271198386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, something messed up in file loading < 1271198479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, basically you need exp-ptrcheck to detect it because it is writing in a valid area of the memory. Just not the *right* valid area < 1271198523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it happens on mycology too I think you go one further than your array < 1271198527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for funge space < 1271198529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1271198531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/<=/, then add one to the pointer, etc < 1271199392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a massive switch statement < 1271199406 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know I sound like a noob, but the '[' and ']' always get me < 1271199414 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while looping always gets me < 1271199414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only slightly difficult thing to do there is handling loops; for BF interps, there are at least three ways to do it, probably five or 6 < 1271199429 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1271199443 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one easy one is to move forwards/backwards through the program counting brackets until you reach a balance < 1271199454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: Don't worry. That's the one that it's *possible* to screw up without being a complete noob. :P < 1271199454 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1271199474 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271199508 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I'm writing in a c like language, I want to have the whole program stored in a char array < 1271199515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely. < 1271199522 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an interger reading it one character at a time < 1271199532 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like code[instruction] < 1271199537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the simple case, yes. < 1271199548 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1271199555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works fine for BF, it's arguably designed so that that's possible < 1271199574 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271199588 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will something, and be back! < 1271199653 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, and one other thing. < 1271199659 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to be writing it in bc < 1271199677 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the putchar and getchar will be in base 10/16 < 1271199713 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I'll try C first < 1271199721 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sounds easier < 1271199733 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i tend to talk to myself in public online < 1271199777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter, monologuing can be useful < 1271199784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sometimes get logreaders responding to you months later < 1271199793 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271199804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just lurkers coming up with something insightful < 1271199815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, monologuing is fairly normal here. < 1271199834 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\\////\\\\///\\\/// < 1271199849 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I was just playing with the keyboard and accidently hit enter < 1271199858 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get a prize for that, do I? < 1271199875 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google bc language < 1271199877 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bc is "an arbitrary precision calculator language" with syntax similar to the C programming language. It is generally used by typing the command bc on a ... \ [13]POSIX bc - [14]Plan 9 bc - [15]GNU bc - [16]Example code < 1271199883 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that bc :P < 1271199886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1271199899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: meh, that's along the same lines as random o-ing < 1271199919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I type a lot to unstick keys on a keyboard (although not often needed here), and press return just to give something to talk aobut < 1271199921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*about < 1271199955 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp < 1271199956 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271199962 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POOPPY! < 1271199983 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIKE CHICKEN < 1271200029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe I should link coppro to http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/ookLanguage too < 1271200090 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cross compiling C for the ipod touch, with headers like stdio.h < 1271200095 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the brainfuck < 1271200108 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawlwtf < 1271200126 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: That violates the Apple SDK's license agreement :P < 1271200128 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oo < 1271200128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, maybe I should link coppro to http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/ookLanguage too <-- wth < 1271200157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as far as I can tell, Microsoft wanted an example of adding a new language to Visual Studio < 1271200160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271200169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and picked a relatively simple esolang in order to keep the example simple < 1271200172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why didn't they pick intercal ;P < 1271200176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271200178 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unlambda < 1271200184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is still kind-of crazy that there's semi-offiical support for Ook! in Visual Studio 2010, though < 1271200195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to believe that you can integrate new languages until they make it easy to use a custom build system < 1271200195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I guess both INTERCAL and Unlambda would be too complex for an example < 1271200197 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dupdog < 1271200208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly anyone's heard of dupdog < 1271200210 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271200224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one was dupdog now again? < 1271200238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was one developed in this channel when someone was messing with egobot < 1271200242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dupdog if you need a link < 1271200279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of those languages that "we" think is almost certainly sub-TC, but can't prove it < 1271200280 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271200301 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271200303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the dual interpreter one < 1271200313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you like that category of langs, Xigxag's a fun one; it's been proven that nontrivial Xigxag programs grow indefinitely, but not that you can't get TC behaviour from them anyway) < 1271200341 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favorite category of the wiki is unknown computational class < 1271200367 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favorite category is Languages written by Gregor Richards < 1271200413 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By 'sub-TC', you mean you think it is not TC? < 1271200423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, idea: implement it in a sub-TC lang < 1271200431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't think it would be impossible < 1271200434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yep < 1271200445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to be precise, sub-TC means it can't do everything that a TC lang can < 1271200462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncomputable is also non-TC, but it's over TC rather than under < 1271200472 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271200485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the existence of uncomputable langs is really a matter of philosophy, as to whether they can really be said to exist or not < 1271200487 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language that's only command is "X" < 1271200492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define them but not implement them < 1271200493 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X prints out one of two things < 1271200501 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P=NP or P!=NP < 1271200501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Guhh ... not necessarily? A language can be uncomputable but not useful for computation, can't it? < 1271200509 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who will write the interpreter < 1271200513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: good point, it's independent < 1271200515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that makes natural languages uncomputable right? < 1271200535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: natural languages are incompletely specified, you can't work out their computational class as a result < 1271200553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: it's trivial to write an interp for that, just so long as you don't care about the output being correct < 1271200559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if you can describe an uncomputable language in natural languages... < 1271200576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: again, arguably you can't describe /anything/ in a natural language < 1271200586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? < 1271200590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not convinced being able to describe something is the same as being able to implement it < 1271200597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1271200605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because the meaning isn't pinned down to the level required to have a useful implementation < 1271200616 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a slightly related question < 1271200641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you implement anything in a natural language? Well I guess IRP... < 1271200646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: well, feel free to ask it; also, you need to allow for the way that multiple conversations can happen in the same channel < 1271200651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure if IRP coutns < 1271200652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*counts < 1271200655 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay IRP 8-D < 1271200656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1271200662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's one of those langs like HQ9+ < 1271200666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously useless, yet it makes you think < 1271200685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is far more powerful than HQ9+ if the interpreters are in the mood for it ;P < 1271200699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, but rather less accurate < 1271200710 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271200714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do we have the computational class of HQ9+ down as atm anyway? < 1271200716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, it is probabilistic < 1271200726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probabilisticness makes it so hard to tell < 1271200728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the probability decreases with the complexity of the program < 1271200750 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ is probabalistic? < 1271200757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, no. IRP < 1271200773 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there were a theoretical computer with two processors, one infinitely fast, and another at 1hz, and it's function is to run code on the infinite speed processor, piping random input to it while the 1hz processor waits 1 second, would it solve the halting problem because all possible outcomes/modes of running were run in 1 second? < 1271200797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: yep, the existence of an infinitely fast computer is one way to get uncomputable behaviour < 1271200804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, anything that lets you do infinite computations in finite time < 1271200837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all known methods to get uncomputable behaviour are impossible to implement; if someone found something super-TC that could be implemented, it would be a major shock to anyone who knew what the terms meant < 1271200849 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the halting problem is near-computable when the code doesn't take input, and is run on a superfast processor < 1271200873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can think of it as being only a "factor of infinity" away from being computable < 1271200877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's rather a large factor < 1271200902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it would be a major shock to me if someone found something that was an UTM and could be implemented < 1271200907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an UTM I mean < 1271200921 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a factor of infinity be infinity < 1271200922 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271200922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because that requires infinite data storage < 1271200926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: yes < 1271200930 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there goes my theory < 1271200933 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is, you need a computer that's infinitely more powerful than existing ones < 1271200938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any finite number isn't good enough < 1271200939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes that is why a real life UTM would be a major shock indeed < 1271200955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: real life extendable-storage is entirely possible, though < 1271200964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only reason it wouldn't work is the Earth running out of resources to extend it < 1271200967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but if the universe is infinite (I don't know which way the astronomers currently think it is) then I guess... < 1271200968 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271200980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the observable universe is finite < 1271201001 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by definition) < 1271201009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but it only needs to be infinite in potentia. You can start the program while you are still building the end of the tape < 1271201010 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be infinite < 1271201027 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: The UNIVERSE could be, the OBSERVABLE universe could not. < 1271201034 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some theories about an infinite observable universe < 1271201043 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back in the static model < 1271201048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure, you might have to pause the thing if it caught up with you and continue extending it < 1271201055 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if time goes infinitely back, sure, but that's all weird :P < 1271201056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: by definition, combined with the values of a few constants which we happen to know the approximate values of < 1271201060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pausing's fine < 1271201064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is literally running out of storage < 1271201070 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scala: Good language, or bad language < 1271201076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never used it < 1271201078 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugly language. < 1271201085 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271201089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271201093 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The usual argument against it was the blackness of the sky < 1271201104 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are actually some configuration where it doesn't happen < 1271201113 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A universe with a fractal structure works < 1271201116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity alise isn't here, that's who you should ask for (relatively accurate) judgements on how good languages are < 1271201122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed. Well if the universe is infinite and the observable universe is not then you could just extend the tape when it was needed < 1271201138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can never catch up with the speed of light this is no problem < 1271201146 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster : You cannot, actually < 1271201152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is a problem, because you can never get outside the observable area < 1271201154 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some calculations done about this < 1271201158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't get bigger, it gets smaller over time < 1271201164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? < 1271201170 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, space expansion < 1271201170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that work < 1271201172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't "wait for things to become observable" < 1271201183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how can it get smaller over time+ < 1271201186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1271201200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: think of it staying the same size but everything else getting bigger to compensate < 1271201204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so effectively, it gets smallre < 1271201205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*smaller < 1271201208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grrr < 1271201208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271201220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean that space expands? okay < 1271201222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did NOT want to be reminded about how there's a RoboZZle app for iPhone but not Android < 1271201234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well does one end of the tape have to be able to observe the other end? < 1271201252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, or you can /never/ get to the bit of the tape you can't observe < 1271201256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you have two different programs < 1271201260 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to be missing the concept of "observable" here < 1271201275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way that anything that isn't observable, from your point of view, can ever affect you < 1271201279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what you do or what happens < 1271201283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, with current physics < 1271201284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I assume that if I wait long enough the light from it will reach me. Otherwise I would just setup a wormhole and go over there < 1271201292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it won't < 1271201298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that makes no sense < 1271201299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's moving away from you at faster than the speed of light < 1271201300 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be a bad thing to do most of my recreational programming in Scala? < 1271201308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the light gets further away from you over time < 1271201314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay so the tape would break by that wouldn't it? < 1271201330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how comes earth and everything isn't torn apart by this < 1271201330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably, yes < 1271201348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because the effect over a small scale is too small to notice < 1271201362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gravity/elasticity is a much stronger effect on the small scale < 1271201370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where by "small" I mean "smaller than a galaxy or so" < 1271201375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay what about a wormhole then when you start reaching the problematic area? < 1271201386 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271201388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wormholes may change the way this works < 1271201396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they haven't been proven to exist < 1271201412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, so would finding something with better information storage density than a black hole < 1271201422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: that's a theoretical limit, nobody's entirely sure how to store information in a black hole) < 1271201424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1271201431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271201435 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what it's like outside of time-space, in a black hole < 1271201497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: impossible to perceive with any known measuring device, I imagine < 1271201498 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271201521 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271201562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at something that falls into a black hole from the outside, it's like it sort of stops and fades < 1271201582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it falls in slowly over the course of forever, but quickly the light disappears < 1271201594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise you could generate energy like that < 1271201603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exponential decay in theory) < 1271201612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wish to add to this: current models are *models* that means that they are more or less accurate approximations of "reality". That could explain some weirdness related to black holes < 1271201624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably less accurate, the universe is just that weird < 1271201626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying it is so, just that it is worth considering < 1271201633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along < 1271201647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah < 1271201651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming up with some new weirdness whenever they reach a level at which we can actually detect what happens < 1271201654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like discworld almost < 1271201655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271201658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to explain most of physics, IMO < 1271201666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is obvious < 1271201666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along < 1271201669 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :149| theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along < 1271201672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world is a computer simulation < 1271201689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure. I recently heard that from the point of view of a photon, every distance is zero < 1271201689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at high levels, things work in simple manner because they've been programmed that way < 1271201690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: However, not that lame "statistically we're a computer simulation" theory BS. < 1271201695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, time doesn't pass < 1271201709 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe is a computer simulation, within a computer simulation, within a computer simulation ad infinitum. < 1271201712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst many other things this doesn't explain the term "light year" < 1271201713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271201714 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at low levels, things break down because we get to the actual level near code < 1271201716 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: nah < 1271201718 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe contains itself (in a simulation) and is its own cause. < 1271201724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that theory fails, because statistically speaking, we're likely to have a different theory of statistics from other simulations < 1271201731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The universe is clearly a highly accurate universe implementation. < 1271201736 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's why I called it lame :P < 1271201740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a result, the universe that contains ours is likely to have a different theory of statistics from ours < 1271201744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, all bets are off < 1271201754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1271201761 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What a hilariously useless statement X-D < 1271201771 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe that contains ours... < 1271201773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, isn't it? < 1271201775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and another thing: photons lack mass. Yet they can push things (see: solar sails) < 1271201780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fuck is that possible < 1271201791 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have momentum < 1271201793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Photons possess energy. < 1271201797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm < 1271201818 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they hit something, they vibrate slower and push a little < 1271201820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have (mass-energy) < 1271201824 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :energy is conserved < 1271201827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another fun thing: you know the weird photon/wave duality of light? < 1271201832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just light. < 1271201833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes < 1271201835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just light < 1271201837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, electrons too < 1271201838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Electrons do the same thing. < 1271201838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1271201840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1271201841 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sound waves < 1271201842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1271201846 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fullerenes < 1271201848 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should create a partical/wave-dual esolang < 1271201852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, not sound waves ... or fullerenes. < 1271201852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, sound wave behave like particles?? < 1271201857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271201859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phonons! < 1271201863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[citation needed] < 1271201863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1271201869 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do soundwaves have the same capabilities of photons, like pushing things? < 1271201879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how the fuck does a sound wave behave like a particle < 1271201884 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon < 1271201885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: Sound waves are literally the pushing of things. < 1271201886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: soundwaves can certainly push things, given that they're inherently mechanical anyway < 1271201894 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271201930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1271201938 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, Gregor, fullerenes have been experimentally observed to have wavelengths too. De Broglie's equation applies to all waves and particles < 1271201960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fullerenes? < 1271201962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what is the wavelength of a coppro? < 1271201972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, carbon allotrope (sp?) < 1271201973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Fairly low. < 1271201974 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on how fast I'm moving < 1271201983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a book where the wavelength of a human was calculated < 1271201995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was really really incredibly small < 1271201996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh, what did it end up at < 1271202003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember the exact value < 1271202014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, to the order of magnitude? < 1271202026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: smaller than even most stuff that comes up in fundamental physics < 1271202031 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha I played wikipedia race, and in 14 links got from Phonon to house of wax(film) < 1271202040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe around 10^-30, to an order of magnitude of order of magnitudes < 1271202061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271202070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in meters? < 1271202076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares < 1271202086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be any unit you like at that degree of inaccuracy < 1271202087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, when walking, my wavelength is roughly 1.5*10^-35 metres < 1271202092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if it was in Hz it would be rather different < 1271202095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than if it was in meters < 1271202107 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hz are not a measure of distance < 1271202112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, correct < 1271202115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/distance < 1271202125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it would end up so differently < 1271202128 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/period < 1271202137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave Calculate it yourself. < 1271202138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271202143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hz = s^-1 < 1271202169 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can actually do quantum mechanics without the whole wave thing < 1271202174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how did you get from wavelength to hz then? < 1271202176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1271202181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too sleepy < 1271202218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wavelength is related to frequency by velocity < 1271202224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271202236 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*momentum < 1271202240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271202255 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes) < 1271202261 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :momentum has a mass dimension < 1271202268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wavelength and frequency do not < 1271202275 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence the Planck constant < 1271202289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't talking about the de Broglie equation < 1271202296 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1271202299 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But < 1271202306 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This also works for light < 1271202310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1271202311 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And phonons < 1271202315 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f\ = v < 1271202317 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though they're only pseudoparticles < 1271202335 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for light, this is extra simple because v = c in a vacuum < 1271202400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fullerons < 1271202422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait i suppose fullerene already refers to the particle version < 1271202456 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fulleraves? < 1271202466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full rave? < 1271202612 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271202660 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271202900 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people usually get mad if you haphazardly post large chunks of code and ask what your doing wrong? < 1271202956 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95 : Post them on pastebin < 1271202968 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271203045 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/ZD1faJ6X < 1271203062 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I followed earlier instructions without adding the loops yet < 1271203582 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I make an error so embarrassing that it needs no response? < 1271203603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I just wasn't paying attention < 1271203604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1271203643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: barring the non-implementation of [ and ], that's almost identical to the original BF interp < 1271203654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, that's the correct behavior. < 1271203687 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than how come when I compile it and write ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ . < 1271203693 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^D < 1271203695 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does nothing < 1271203744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1271203755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure the output wasn't overwritten by your prompt? < 1271203768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ . > +++++ +++++ . < 1271203795 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still nothing < 1271203851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bizarre < 1271203862 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens when you compile it? < 1271203864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, got it < 1271203871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the line "interpreter=0" needs to be moved one line earlier < 1271203879 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh < 1271203895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it is, you've put most of your code in the C equivalent of a header comment < 1271203904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using two while loops with identical conditions, so the second one can't run) < 1271204051 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if when the first one ends, and the interpreter is set to 0, the array code is used read only < 1271204109 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I am still baffled at the thought of the loops < 1271204300 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so on "case '['" < 1271204319 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a var named nested to look for the nearest ']' < 1271204330 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but execute everything on the way if it is 1 < 1271204340 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1271204341 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271204436 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't someone say there were 5 or 6 ways of doing this < 1271204437 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271204449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what? loops in bf? probably < 1271204462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would put it in a linked list with down wards nodes for loops < 1271204466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if doing bf in C < 1271204475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the recursive parser would put it in that < 1271204485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial, done it when writing bf compilers < 1271204504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf *interpreters* never interested me much, but the same idea should work < 1271204525 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a two dimensional array that is different levels of nested loops? < 1271204532 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no it would work different < 1271204545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds weird < 1271204547 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auughh < 1271204560 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you read my pastebin? < 1271204563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95, you just need to track [ as you go along < 1271204573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95, no I'm not on a device where I can easily do that < 1271204600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95, anyway track [ in a stack, then when you hit a ] you pop the last [ position < 1271204602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too < 1271204644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to add the tests at [ and at ] for if the loop should continue < 1271204660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, either that or keep track of where the ] was when you jump back to [ < 1271204689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95, as an optimisation you can store the position of the matching ] to the [ when parsing < 1271204695 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't get too into this now, but I will be back! < 1271204706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise if you never enter the loop you need to run along the code and not executing it < 1271204709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95, night < 1271204970 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1271206646 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271206850 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271207059 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271207090 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271207125 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271207146 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271207400 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271207434 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271207852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271208004 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:12:29 Aw, Rugxulo already went? < 1271208013 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, after an hour + half of no chat :-) < 1271208023 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vastly different timezones don't help either) < 1271208049 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adrian is so silly 8D < 1271208102 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume -DFUNGE isn't really needed for ff3 (unless based upon Marsh, doubt it) < 1271208143 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be interesting to see somebody with a behemoth of a fast machine try the "benchmark" (AnMaster? Deewiant?) < 1271208149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! Chrome spontaneously froze < 1271208156 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Linux? < 1271208161 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows < 1271208168 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win7 x64? < 1271208183 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271208186 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1271208188 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure? it's usually most stable on Windows < 1271208189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WinXP < 1271208202 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring up the Task Manager and kill the errant tab(s) < 1271208205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a lot of tabs open, on a fairly weak machine < 1271208223 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably why, it uses more RAM than Firefox with more tabs open < 1271208232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1271208253 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, Sgeo, this machine is WinXP w/ 128 MB, so I'm not crazy enough to open too many tabs in Chrome (even running Opera just to save RAM) < 1271208261 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, stupid "reboot now?" reminder over and over again < 1271208279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I remember there's a trick to disable that, but don't remember what it was < 1271208292 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, kill it ;-) < 1271208424 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the nicest way to determine dpi? < 1271208642 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Put your eye RIIIIIGHT next to the monitor and count. < 1271208767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does my emulated Android phone have no net connection? < 1271208774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one I made before had one :/ < 1271209220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to play in the emulator's terminal emulator < 1271209263 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of stuff can you run on it? < 1271209285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, Android apparently uses something called Dalvik < 1271209392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, huh, networking's working now < 1271209413 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dalvik is some lite Java-ish VM, right? < 1271209438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really sure < 1271209649 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now wonders how to root his emulator < 1271209726 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271209775 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271209823 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271209849 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271209925 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1271210402 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1271211201 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271211252 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271211343 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271211424 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271211786 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271212031 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1271212754 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271212804 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271213710 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1271215822 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1271216266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271217566 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271217644 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1271218841 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271220308 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271220437 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271223484 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271223521 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, still here? you should try "bef2c -p -o" and use GCC on that < 1271223536 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speeds up the (lame) "benchmark" a lot that way < 1271223552 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it doesn't use string mode mostly because bef2c doesn't handle that < 1271223564 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I couldn't do "d" instead of 91+:* < 1271223604 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now only takes 20 secs. (bef2c/GCC-compiled output) on this P4 < 1271223782 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think I accidentally timed the 4.2.3 output in the whole comparison that I quoted earlier < 1271223793 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't match the time for GCC 4.4.2 on this P4 < 1271223815 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently 4.4.2 is much faster (52 secs.) vs. 4.2.3 (76 secs) or something like that < 1271223830 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever, the comparison is still valid, I used the same .EXE on each machine :-P < 1271223866 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, stupid timezones < 1271223878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster, it doesn't use string mode mostly because bef2c doesn't handle that <-- sounds buggy. It is part of befunge, should be supported < 1271223897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a fairly simple part of Befunge. < 1271223900 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I ended up coding around your "quirk" in --befunge93, I still really wonder why you'd even *want* to reflect on unknown chars < 1271223902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271223913 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bef2c doesn't handle "p" or string mode < 1271223918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, buggy < 1271223919 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame Pressey, not me ;-) < 1271223927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1271223961 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Reflection on unknown is fairly useful for Befunge 98. < 1271223970 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but for --befunge93 ???? < 1271223972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where it is entirely possible for an instruction to not be supported. < 1271223986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is just common behavior in Befunge 93. < 1271223987 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bef.c (without -q) whines but still ignores 'em < 1271224005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Befunge 93 does not define that behavior. < 1271224005 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271224008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271224025 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll admit, I haven't tested every B93 implementation ever, but 99% of them don't reflect on ';' (etc) < 1271224039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine does. ;) < 1271224057 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'll be glad to know that I worked around it in two of my other (lame) .bef scripts < 1271224071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I get something like 0.2 seconds for the benchmark in jitfunge. < 1271224081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, .bef? < 1271224084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it .bf < 1271224096 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer ".bef" < 1271224103 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainf*** uses .b and sometimes .bf < 1271224104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.b -> brainfuck; .bf -> befunge93; .b98 -> befunge98 < 1271224116 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, the original interpreter was "bef", so ... < 1271224131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 seconds for my interpreter. < 1271224138 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on what hardware? < 1271224138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yeah by that logic befunge98 should be .ffbi < 1271224144 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also try "bef2c -p -o" < 1271224151 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but you know what I mean < 1271224164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phenom II x3 710. < 1271224170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I don't? < 1271224177 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since "bf" was ambiguous, I think "bef" is more appropriate, *especially* since the original interpreter was named "bef" (and not "bf") < 1271224178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: I'm not *sure* how long cfunge takes on it. < 1271224189 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what GCC? < 1271224206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I killed it after some 11 minutes) < 1271224211 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Tried ff3 on your box? < 1271224213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc (Gentoo 4.4.3 p1.0) 4.4.3 < 1271224214 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, x3, lucky dog ... I saw an ad for an AMD x3 only once, almost wanted it just for the novelty ;-) < 1271224214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that was 64-bit or 32-bit? < 1271224217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, 5 seconds. < 1271224226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Oh*. Probably 64-bit. XD < 1271224235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yeah 64-bit is default < 1271224247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, have fun during the next 800+ years! < 1271224250 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271224272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Now then. < 1271224286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably much more than that, it doesn't scale linearly with number of bits I bet) < 1271224287 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I dunno if 16 secs. is optimal for your advanced hardware ... for a P4, sure, but for a Phenom II ... ??? < 1271224308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: My interpreter could be much faster. < 1271224327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cfunge takes 10s. < 1271224329 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they all can ;-) < 1271224346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ff3 takes 5. < 1271224383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amusingly, if I were to *make* mine faster, I would basically have the same code as ff3. < 1271224386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, really? not too shabby < 1271224393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did you use -march=native? < 1271224395 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried bef2c yet? < 1271224413 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-march=native didn't help at all here (P4) < 1271224432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you tried cfunge too? < 1271224436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Default CFLAGS for my system are "-O2 -march=amdfam10 -pipe -ggdb", and I've been adding -O3 on top of that. < 1271224443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1271224443 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, cfunge won't run on Win32, remember? < 1271224455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, how would I remember you use win32 though? < 1271224462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also iirc ehird got it working under cygwin < 1271224469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with gcc 3.x < 1271224476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been considering writing me a Befunge '98. < 1271224480 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latest Cygwin has (IIRC) GCC 4.x < 1271224500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh btw, how long does ccbi1 and ccbi2 take on that benchmark for you? < 1271224516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am *not* setting up a fucking D compiler. < 1271224530 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have to, binaries provided on Deewiant's site < 1271224539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has just given me too damned much pain. < 1271224546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, he has binaries < 1271224546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Okay then. < 1271224569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ time ./jitfunge ../../ff/benchmark.bef 2>/dev/null < 1271224572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483596 < 1271224574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.153s < 1271224581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Nice. < 1271224586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, system specs? < 1271224587 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/befunge/interpreters/ccbi/ccbi-linux-x86-64.txz < 1271224631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Athlon X2 5600+ or something; ff3 runs benchmark.bef in 6.something seconds. < 1271224641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271224678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The binary has 64-bit cells. < 1271224680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did it properly execute it or was it skipping most due to some bug? < 1271224704 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why no comparison with FBBI anymore? too buggy?? < 1271224704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Judging from the result, I'd say it does it right. < 1271224705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh right < 1271224710 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: Mycology) < 1271224723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32-bit build does *not*. :) < 1271224769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi takes 19 seconds. < 1271224796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hah. Well that is a 32-bit pointer build < 1271224816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might explain why it is slower in part < 1271224845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it takes 45 seconds with --befunge93. < 1271224850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, haha < 1271224853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a *slow* b93 interpreter. :P < 1271224859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well he said he worked on it < 1271224899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh and for cfunge the -s 93 mode won't make a difference. It _only_ changes from SGML spaces to befunge93 string mode < 1271224908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else follow 98 rules still < 1271224917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I noticed, actually. < 1271224922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider it just a compatibility mode < 1271224928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a full befunge93 mode < 1271224945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really lack interest in doing anything more advanced for befunge93 < 1271224957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1271224969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you *really* want to, just ship ff3 or something. < 1271224972 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snob ;-) < 1271224978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, to me? < 1271224980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271224986 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes (semi-jokingly) < 1271224989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271224993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/hs/geb/VideoLectures/index.htm < 1271225005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I just find befunge93 fairly boring compared to befunge98 < 1271225026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, can you check how long efunge takes on it? < 1271225035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Link? < 1271225041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you have bzr? < 1271225053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't yet made a release < 1271225055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1271225064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see if it has tarballs < 1271225082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. Befunge-98 implementation. I've got half an idea to go ahead and compile a row or column into threaded code whenever code would be flowing through said row or column. < 1271225094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/efunge/trunk < 1271225095 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, so boring that you can't implement compatibility? tsk tsk ... < 1271225107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, would slow me down :P < 1271225108 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here have write access to the esolang archive? < 1271225122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there is no release yet sorry < 1271225122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making all of the actual interpreting instructions step just via goto *ip++, goto *ip--, or goto *ip+=delta. < 1271225135 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all the time you "saved" with your lightning-fast C99/POSIX/x64+SIMD B98 interpreter?? :-P < 1271225143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway efunge will either be slower or faster than Language::Befunge. Which of those I don't know < 1271225159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, how do you mean saved? < 1271225166 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conserved < 1271225177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, oh I meant "slow me down" as in "slow interpreter down" < 1271225197 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep the fast bits for B98 mode, others for B93 < 1271225209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oh, and obviously invalidating precompiled threads upon code modification) < 1271225217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thoughts? < 1271225221 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of any B93 script that needs a "fast" interpreter anyways < 1271225225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, still. You need to have two main loops and two different switch statements < 1271225234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, this benchmark? life.bf? < 1271225250 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a B93 interpreter in B98, then, if that's all that fascinates you ... best of both worlds :-)) < 1271225261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ? < 1271225274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, hah < 1271225296 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, though, esolang archive is dreadfully anemic, all of us could add lots and lots to it) < 1271225327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1271225329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Compiling a row or column into a single bit of threaded code when control would flow into it, so that all the actual *interpretation* doesn't involve much work at all. < 1271225344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you mean like ff3? < 1271225353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Befunge-98. < 1271225366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you still have non-cardinal delta < 1271225370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like going diagonally < 1271225380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (3,48) or whatever < 1271225382 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, just vaguely curious, anybody ever used the Sponge "compiler"? < 1271225386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, yes. That would require significantly more work. < 1271225400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, the scheme→befunge one? < 1271225405 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271225406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried it < 1271225432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'd be tempted to treat that as a slow case. < 1271225437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271225439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, iirc it lacked call/cc which made me somewhat uninterested < 1271225452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how much code actually *uses* non-cardinal delta, anyways?) < 1271225464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I use 11x fairly often < 1271225467 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't seem to provide any examples, so I was curious if it was "just because" or ... < 1271225479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1271225490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also remember the code may not be compact. You may have a single value at (1778246873,6472673) or whatever < 1271225528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, who is/was "he" there? < 1271225538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-cardinal delta makes it a royal pain to *cache* any of the threaded code. < 1271225539 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever wrote Sponge (I forget ...) < 1271225541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271225560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, See, befunge98 is a lot more interesting ;P < 1271225565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a greater challenge < 1271225579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl, going to university < 1271225580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A single value at (1778246873,6472673)? < 1271225596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, that would just be an array with two elements! < 1271225878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/jitbench.txt is what LLVM's static compiler bits make out of the IR dumped by jitfunge. It's not quite optimal, but not too horrible either. < 1271225941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been nicer if it could have moved the stack push/pop out of the loop. < 1271226300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Faster than what nearly anything else is going to do with it. < 1271226361 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed -e 's/\(.\{80\}\).*/\1/' -e '25q' mycology.b98 >mycology.b93 < 1271226367 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seems correct, easier than manually doing it) < 1271226415 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I get for sticking with 128x128 for no good reason :-/ < 1271226428 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, just rambling to myself, carry on ... < 1271226462 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(none of you ever did benchmarking after running through bef2c, oh well ...) < 1271226541 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I still say that reflecting in --befunge93 is wrong ... if "fbbi -93" and "bef -q" both accept it, then why don't you? < 1271226580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I decide what to do on undefined behavior. :P < 1271226637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what undefined case is this? < 1271226659 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflecting on unrecognized chars in B93 mode < 1271226661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What to do on unknown characters, Befunge93. < 1271226664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that interfunge goes mad if the input file isn't exactly 80x25, with lines padded out with spaces to the right length < 1271226666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah < 1271226668 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original / official doesn't reflect, but ... < 1271226681 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, ais523, did you release a new Intercal on April 1? < 1271226686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271226690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Befunge93, most things are undefined. < 1271226693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have one to release, I've hardly worked on it < 1271226699 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww :-/ < 1271226710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if there's somewhere to put a repo online, I don't mind letting people see the state it's in atm < 1271226720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people with more spare time than me can fork it, or whatever < 1271226732 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, you're giving up? *sniff* < 1271226742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hee, with -DUNSAFE_STACK, it goes nicely: http://zem.fi/~fis/jitbench-unsafe.txt < 1271226747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.LBB12_2: # %Entry0 < 1271226748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : # =>This Inner Loop Header: Depth=1 < 1271226748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : add ECX, -100 < 1271226748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : test ECX, ECX < 1271226748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jle .LBB12_2 < 1271226764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, raw tabs. Anyway. < 1271226779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: no, not really < 1271226784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, unlikely to work on it very fast < 1271226801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /did/ get a bug report recently, which I may try to fix < 1271226812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a feature request, denied on the basis that it already existed with the same syntax in Perl and PHP < 1271226868 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what request exactly? < 1271226887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the $$variable syntax from Perl/PHP < 1271226894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which would become ..1 or whatever in INTERCAL) < 1271226901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Though crazy, yeah. Definitely not for INTERCAL. < 1271226912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's insufficiently crazy -- someone's done it! < 1271226922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1271226952 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of crazy, I wonder if AnMaster has considered using Pash (Powershell subset) for anything ;-) < 1271226993 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pash = crazy, not AnMaster (obviously?) < 1271226998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1271227013 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just being here is evidence of being crazy, or else lost < 1271227015 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, forgot he left for university, bah < 1271227029 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't understand _Lost_ < 1271227054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you're meant to understand it < 1271227139 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there aren't that many episodes left!! < 1271227565 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271227646 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn Wikipedia is weird ... why hyperlink the number "4" ??? < 1271227670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*some of wikipedia's editors < 1271227685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's generally recommended behavior :D < 1271227690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: if it's a date, that's fine < 1271227691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1271227698 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a date < 1271227700 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1271227708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :piping it to [[4 (number)]] is weird, and possibly should be delinked < 1271227710 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also seen a link to a page for "motherf**ker" !! < 1271227713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linking it to [[4]] is just plain wrong < 1271227727 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all because "Epic Beard Man" [sic] is famous for that on his shirt :-)) < 1271227742 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, quite absurdly useless < 1271227759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it's < 1271227779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too early for me < 1271227813 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"4 (four) is a number, numeral, and glyph. It is the natural number following 3 and preceding 5." < 1271227819 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(turning into Sesame Street?) < 1271227831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: just in case you don't know what 4 is < 1271227846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some esolangs, defining numbers can be rather tricky < 1271227866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Underload, for instance, you'd probably define 4 as (:::***), but might use any number of other definitions < 1271227877 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Motherf**ker (euphemized as mf) is a vulgarism which, in its most literal use, refers to one who participates in sexual intercourse with someone's mother." < 1271227885 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so glad Wikipedia cleared that up for me ;-) < 1271227931 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we (#esoteric) are the crazy ones??? :-P < 1271227979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone is crazy, just some people are so crazy they think they aren't < 1271228111 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously, Wikipedia is ultra cool ... but a little crazy! < 1271228331 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271228527 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271228569 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271228754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271229755 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well, gonna jet ... < 1271229763 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1271229764 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1271231171 0 :Guest69012!~aspire@124.13.225.73 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271231316 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271231443 0 :Guest69012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271231999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271232000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271232142 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Disconnected. < 1271232272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271232333 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271232389 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271233988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271234153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271234238 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271235293 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-167-40-196.range86-167.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271237893 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1271239084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case Rugxulo logreads... < 1271239121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Reflection seems like the sensible thing to do since that's what I'm used to from -98... but I suppose I can switch it to nop instead < 1271239162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: No FBBI in the new comparison because it's too buggy and because it's not likely to be updated; the old comparison results are still there, though. < 1271239167 0 :nooga!~nooga@dhf213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1271239301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I improved that -93 result, but it'll still be slower than -98 on that benchmark since the -98 is clever enough not to execute a nop (80 - width of program) times. < 1271239518 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271239552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Of course you can just customize the interp for the particular program: < 1271239555 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/ff$ gcc -o ff3 ff3.c -DINTERLEAVED -O2 < 1271239556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/ff$ time ./ff3 benchmark.bef < 1271239556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483596 < 1271239556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m6.119s < 1271239556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user 0m6.080s < 1271239558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys 0m0.000s < 1271239560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/ff$ gcc -o ff3 ff3.c -DINTERLEAVED -DPF_X=15 -DPF_Y=1 -O2 < 1271239563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~/src/ff$ time ./ff3 benchmark.bef < 1271239565 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2147483596 < 1271239568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m2.429s < 1271239570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user 0m2.420s < 1271239573 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys 0m0.000s < 1271239578 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's cheating. :-P < 1271239617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, it's... uh, being environmentally conscious! No sense in wasting bytes! < 1271239699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The environment won't thank you when the local nuclear reactor's control system's 75x19 Befunge-93 core breaks down due to being run in a "customized interp"! < 1271239752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could add boundary tracking (with a fixed maximum) to ff3 too, but then I'd have to re-paint the border zone whenever they are extended. < 1271239768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be very cheap in -93 < 1271239825 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271239830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a project for some day that I'm unsick enough to get out of bed; the N900 keyb is not quite so coding-friendly. < 1271239863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're sick in bed and on IRC about Befunge? That's clever :-P < 1271239887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else is there to do? < 1271239927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically when I'm bedridden I pretty much just sleep and eat < 1271239950 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that I have to get up every 15 minutes to check if the cat wants to come in from the balcony. There should be some sort of system for that. < 1271239960 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm "just" very ill, I can usually manage to sit at the computer as usual < 1271240173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271240191 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271242022 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271242436 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271242814 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1271244126 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271244744 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271245377 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1271245997 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271246023 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271247365 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271250500 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271252942 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271253120 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271253613 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271254178 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-98-230.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271258557 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271259290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : speaking of crazy, I wonder if AnMaster has considered using Pash (Powershell subset) for anything ;-) <-- I never heard of pash before < 1271259315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why, that would just be an array with two elements! <-- two? Also there would be some data around 0,0 as well of course < 1271259331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what I meant was that data can be *very* sparse < 1271259489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1271259717 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271259748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Except that I have to get up every 15 minutes to check if the cat wants to come in from the balcony. There should be some sort of system for that. <-- develop that, in befunge < 1271259749 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271259778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : too early for me <-- what is the optimal time for you then? < 1271259789 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271259801 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1271259803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometime not just after i woke up < 1271259817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay. But that doesn't spec how long < 1271259819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1271259826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half an hour? < 1271259828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 hour? < 1271259830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 hours? < 1271259837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps after i finish breakfast, too < 1271259846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and why were you using irc during/before breakfast? < 1271259893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1271259919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well if he had problems with it < 1271259948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it was a joke? < 1271259953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271260046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly there is one reason not to - i _do_ seem to accumulate crumbs in my laptop keyboard < 1271260061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally < 1271260297 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271260478 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271260669 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271261231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1271261260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I only have hair in it, mostly due to not eating at computer very much < 1271261591 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wanting to use Scala even when Java interoperability is not required isn't a bad thing, is it? < 1271261651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think scala is interesting in itself < 1271261664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit crumb under f key < 1271261696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to have vanished < 1271261727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear it's type system has become even more advanced since when i looked (briefly) at scala < 1271261740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1271261805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck avg's whole computer virus scan has become three times faster since last time < 1271261807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type erasure's no fun though, and its sole reason for existance is Java compatibility < 1271261814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's got better at skipping things < 1271261877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait or maybe... < 1271262105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope all the old java versions are still there (i had to reinstall the latest one recently) < 1271262133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :avg used to spend an eternity inside those < 1271262172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, at this rate i might start scanning more often than once a month again ;D < 1271262245 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I take it that for things like web access, you're meant to use Java libraries < 1271262268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wouldn't know < 1271262517 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271263398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Two elements for that column. That's just the threaded code array. < 1271263413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not sure how well this could be... Cached. At all. < 1271263572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so how are you storing funge space in this model? Remember it can be very sparse < 1271263637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what the heck avg's whole computer virus scan has become three times faster since last time <-- because of the malware hiding 2/3 of the disk? < 1271263653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... < 1271263665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, bad joke < 1271263669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope not. < 1271263677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1271263679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _did_ find three trojans < 1271263689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hiding in the same place as usual) < 1271263697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the "same places" as usual? < 1271263706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pron dir? < 1271263708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what ;P < 1271263715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1271263756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C:\RECYCLER < 1271263794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i've seen that before < 1271263826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you hope that what AnMaster said wasn't a joke? < 1271263839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that it wasn't real < 1271263991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm halfway to abandoning this model because it doesn't handle the sparseness correctly. < 1271264098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be doing laundry < 1271264192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh laundry, right < 1271264206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, after i've finished eating < 1271264245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1271264248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to replenish the keyboard, after all < 1271264572 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271264619 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271266073 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271266085 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-224-46.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271266588 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271268052 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271268113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, a hash table is definitely the simplest data structure for *storing* the Befunge space. < 1271268194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My thoughts are more on how to go from there to a simple array for interpreting. Not quite sure what to do about that. < 1271268710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Yeah, a hash table is definitely the simplest data structure for *storing* the Befunge space. <-- not the fastest < 1271268749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what I recommend is starting with a hash table but making sure to use a clean API to it so you can reasonably easy rip it out later when other stuff is working and replace it with something faster < 1271268759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I never said it was the fastest. < 1271268797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, something like setup() load_file(), dump_to_file(), get(), set(), get_bounds() (for y) and perhaps wrap_ip() < 1271268811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Simple" and "fast" are very rarely the same thing. :) < 1271268832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They often are if you allow the thing to be "wrong" as well < 1271268926 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit confused at the exact funge-space bounds thing. How am I supposed to recompute the bounds if someone puts a space onto the outermost edge? < 1271268939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expensively :-P < 1271268944 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I thought so. :P < 1271268964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are ways to cheapen it but basically, expensively. < 1271268985 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good thing my funge space is essentially a bounding volume hierarchy. < 1271269127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, point is, being able to rip out and replace funge space without too much of a PITA is a good idea. Make them macros if you are worried about speed < 1271269169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the big things I see from the choice of data structures is that it's probably a royal pain to access the fungespace in the line that the code is going in. < 1271269174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have considered that. What about specialised hardware to do it? < 1271269195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead; you'll have to donate me some if you want it to show up in Fungicide though :-P < 1271269204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271269227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there memory that can compare a value in constant time? Used for network switches to find MAC addresses and such iirc < 1271269243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what exactly do you mean by that? < 1271269258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's certainly hardware which can sort n packets in log n time < 1271269272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no, log m time, where m is the maximum address < 1271269277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you can check if a value is in memory and what is accoiated with it (would be port number I assume) < 1271269283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it takes rather a lot of hardware to do so < 1271269284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :associated* < 1271269291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: isn't that just a hash? < 1271269309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to kanji review < 1271269321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, iirc it basically have lots of parallel comparing circuits < 1271269327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for each "slot" in memory < 1271269331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can check all values at once < 1271269351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_memory < 1271269371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271269383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware that does constant-time hash-/reversing/, that makes more sense < 1271269412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, or maybe forwards, depending on your point of view < 1271269417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1271269439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I just think of it as a way for network switches and such to find what port a given MAC is on < 1271269558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first: actually tracking column/row counts shouldn't be too expensive in hardware, after all you could just "listen" to the writes to funge space and update the counts. With no performance cost (yes this is a speed-space tradeoff most certainly) < 1271269579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so doing what cfunge with exact bounds do shouldn't be too hard. < 1271269591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then using some smart algorithm for that should make it interesting < 1271269609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and of course, funge space could be implemented as a CAM with xy to look it up < 1271269648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing constant speed to a given number of cells. 2^32*2^32 wouldn't be feasible of course. But this would be like a very fast hash table < 1271269654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you would have no collision < 1271269675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would probably have to use some fallback storage if things grow too large < 1271269715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could hardwire a bit around 0,0 in a possibly cheaper way (smaller constant I guess) < 1271269738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need content-addressability, surely? < 1271269746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just regular addressability would effectively work < 1271269747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for doing a sparse funge space < 1271269749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1271269760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm talking about b98 not b93 < 1271269823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and you need CAM because you can't have a 1:1 mapping due to 2^32*2^32 being unfeasible, thus pigeonhole principle. < 1271269880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I think a befunge93 in VHDL would be interesting. Befunge98 while wonderful to dream about is probably infeasible to ever run on a FPGA or such. < 1271269889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I wonder if VHDL can implement CAM... < 1271269925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you should implement befunge93 in VHDL ;P < 1271269933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless someone has done this < 1271269941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't < 1271270330 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We thought briefly about a Befunge coprocessor for the computer architecture practicals course (the main assignment is to design a mips-like cpu, but you get extra points for a coprocessor or simulatable vhdl), but that never went anywhere. < 1271270356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1271270456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_associative_memory <-- interesting < 1271270731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never going to make a breakthrough with the acronym HAM. But still better than SPAM, I guess. < 1271270769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271270894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes there were more Unefunge programs < 1271270909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As Unefunge is *so* much easier to handle. < 1271270916 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271270930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you don't like a challenge? < 1271270945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sparse 2d arrays give me a headache. < 1271270953 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try 3D! < 1271270960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OW < 1271270962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? Try a AABBs < 1271270962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1271270972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or quadtrees < 1271270974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Which is a... What? < 1271270976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hash tables < 1271271001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Deewiant can explain it. It is what CCBI uses. cfunge in practise uses a single one for the area near 0,0 and hash for the rest < 1271271556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strongly parallel associative memory < 1271271605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1271271626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is it a pun? Or something actually relevant? < 1271271645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271271650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, both? < 1271271664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, explain what you mean though < 1271271664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles innocently < 1271271739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which we deduce that AnMaster's short term memory _and_ irc backscroll are shorter than 15 minutes < 1271271811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't get what the "strongly" comes from < 1271271813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the issue < 1271271938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: fizzie < 1271271976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1271271979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, far fetched < 1271271997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, 15 minutes is so far < 1271272005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no in logical jump < 1271272034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it wasn't, it was entirely obvious < 1271272041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I disagree < 1271272052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:40 AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_associative_memory < 1271272052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <-- interesting < 1271272052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:45 fizzie> Never going to make a breakthrough with the acronym HAM. But < 1271272052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : still better than SPAM, I guess. < 1271272075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this _had_ to be the one time irssi _didn't_ join lines < 1271272127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what the heck is the point with joining lines if it doesn't do it for lines copied from _itself_? < 1271272130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1271272187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i claim the logical jump from that to be quite tiny. < 1271272284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I claim it is large < 1271272471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have been better if there were something actually called strongly parallel associative memory, anyway < 1271272567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam associative memory turns up nothing relevant :( < 1271272599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like people were actively avoiding the acronym, or something :/ < 1271273079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buy a few more gobs of SPAM for you server, it'll increase throughput. < 1271273110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear most throughput is SPAM these days. < 1271273570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271274106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs GCC 4.5, shall play with this here "link-time optimiser" < 1271274893 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271277544 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271278566 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I foresee an underwhelmed pikhq < 1271278865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, gold still sucks ass. < 1271278866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's right. < 1271278893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better things to do with my time AWAY! < 1271278911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. "Better things"... < 1271279400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271279422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) annoying: they're cutting off the water in 5 mins because of a leak < 1271279524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) awesome: they apparently sent a text message warning to the cell phones of everyone in the neighborhood < 1271279723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) apparently we may expect volcanic ash raining down here tomorrow < 1271279731 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did (2) result in a denial-of-service attack bringing down the cell network? < 1271279757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would doubt that < 1271279765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, the message arrived < 1271279768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nature strikes back. < 1271279788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expect a rain of fire and brimstone. < 1271279798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and most of norway) < 1271279833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of britain too, perhaps < 1271279855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map: http://www.dagbladet.no/2010/04/14/nyheter/innenriks/aske/flytrafikk/11282382/ < 1271279930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is 4.5 released? < 1271279953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (3) apparently we may expect volcanic ash raining down here tomorrow <-- what? < 1271279968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see the link < 1271279979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about Sweden? < 1271280000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the red region barely touches sweden < 1271280005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't get any. :( < 1271280015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm out of the green area < 1271280019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the green is no-fly area < 1271280020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what does the colours mean? < 1271280043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, be sure to take some photos if it happens < 1271280048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather height of ashes (prognosis 12 pm tomorrow) < 1271280060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have a camera to use < 1271280114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Kan også ramme sør" <-- I end up parsing this as "can also ram wounds" which seems wrong < 1271280119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red: 0 - 20000 feet, green 20000 - 35000 feet, blue 35000 - 50000 < 1271280125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sør = south < 1271280131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and the "ramme"? < 1271280136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hit < 1271280146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271280151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "sannsynlighet"? < 1271280158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability < 1271280191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271280235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Eyjafjallajökull? Or is that Islandic? < 1271280271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271280281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "akutt flomfare" <-- ? < 1271280282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a glacier afaik < 1271280292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acute flood danger < 1271280303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not sure about acute < 1271280308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define acute < 1271280321 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* having or experiencing a rapid onset and short but severe course; "acute appendicitis"; "the acute phase of the illness"; "acute patients" \ * extremely sharp or intense; "acute pain"; "felt acute annoyance"; "intense itching and burning" \ * having or demonstrating ability to recognize or draw fine distinctions; < 1271280321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sv:akut? < 1271280327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least some other jökulls are glaciers. < 1271280342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's what jökull means < 1271280347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so it wasn't flamedanger? < 1271280349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1271280363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the volcano is rather far from norway :D < 1271280368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flom fare meaning flame danger rather than flood danger would have been nicer < 1271280382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd expect the ashes to have cooled down quite a bit ;) < 1271280385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure but that was about Iceland as far as I can tell < 1271280391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1271280394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "Alle veier inn til området rundt 120 kilometer øst for hovedstaden Reykjavik er stengt etter at smeltevann fra isen skaper akutt flomfare." < 1271280407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it was flood because of the glacier melting < 1271280426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean, wetness isn't the first thing I think of when hearing about volcanos < 1271280439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't have a camera to use <-- what about your mobile phone? < 1271280456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 8 years old, no camera :D < 1271280459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curiously, en:glacier is fi:jäätikkö, not so far off. Not that it's likely to be related. (fi:jää = en:ice.) < 1271280461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271280481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glaciär in Swedish < 1271280494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no:isbre < 1271280504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vulkansk aske er vanskelig å oppdage fra et fly"? < 1271280519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :volcanic ashes are hard to discover from a plane < 1271280520 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gi:osefloop < 1271280530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah, not a fly then ;/ < 1271280531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wtf < 1271280536 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gi == gibberish < 1271280544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gibber gibber < 1271280548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271280572 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you cross wires on a microchip? < 1271280610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet ais523 knows (and is not here) < 1271280623 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can you"? Of course. Generally the wire-crossing problem is avoided simply by (slightly) using the third dimension. < 1271280633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/aska-fran-vulkan-stoppar-norgeflyg_4566955.svd <-- there too oerjan < 1271280688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jökull m (genitive singular jökuls, plural jökular) -- he's a very jökular fellow. < 1271280716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so true < 1271280748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I was just wondering aloud if the construction methods of silicon chips allows crossing. < 1271280758 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know about that. < 1271280800 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you mean crossing without interfering, then yes, the build in layers. If you mean crossing as in connecting, then yes. < 1271280801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wut? < 1271280806 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*they build < 1271280823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK. < 1271280824 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1271280839 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC: a great place to go to ask one question then quit. < 1271280845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1271282187 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271282293 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271282301 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1271282310 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271282497 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271282512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the name Chris Barker sound familiar to anyone here? < 1271282518 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271282523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm from south carolina < 1271282530 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe he was in a plane crash here? < 1271282544 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I completely wrong < 1271282549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong chris barker :P < 1271282556 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1271282563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chris barker as in Iota < 1271282576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Jot < 1271282709 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1271282761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do know of Iota/Jot, yeah? < 1271282765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that guy. < 1271282825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes a linguistics prof at NYU < 1271282835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're trying to get him to come give a talk at UMd < 1271282839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he ever in here? < 1271282851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't think so. < 1271282855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame < 1271283134 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think once you're a prof you're banned from #esoteric :P < 1271283163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1271283167 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he invented iota and jot! < 1271283181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHILE he was a prof! < 1271285335 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271286475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1271287147 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271289064 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: brb < 1271289317 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271290052 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271290068 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271290665 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271291265 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-85-216.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271292245 0 :Sgeo|web!~897d691a@gateway/web/freenode/x-rjmvayokjisinocz JOIN :#esoteric < 1271292294 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our Data Structure class just went over inorder printing of sorted binary trees [print the tree on the left, print the value, print the tree on the right]. We did NOT go over recursion before this. < 1271292325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271293351 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271293527 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271293794 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-50-69.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271293998 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271294966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271295669 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271295711 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1271296407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ping < 1271296417 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: iteration obv < 1271296528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Pong < 1271296559 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, nevermind. I realized that what I was about to say was wrong < 1271297270 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1271298802 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271299350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrrrrgh. < 1271299356 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most is the WORST PAGER EVER. < 1271299543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1271299553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like more only more so? < 1271299689 0 :Oranjer1!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271299804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271299904 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more is a better pager than most. < 1271299910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friggin MORE is a better pager than most. < 1271299916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But less is so much better than either. < 1271300194 0 :Oranjer1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Oranjer2 < 1271300206 0 :Oranjer2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Oranjer3 < 1271300470 0 :Oranjer3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Oranjer4 < 1271300966 0 :Oranjer4!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Oranjer < 1271301046 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271301367 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271301950 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271305498 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271306478 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271307082 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271307246 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271310348 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271310542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But less is so much better than either. <-- is there any "least"? < 1271310761 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, is http://www.frappr.com/esolang down? < 1271311016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is frappr? the map thingy? < 1271311028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so yes iirc they shut down < 1271311120 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271311151 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how esoteric does a language have to be to be discussable on #esoteric? < 1271311174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't say, and I'm leaving for university now < 1271311180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya this evening < 1271311189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(early morning atm for me) < 1271311203 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271312231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271312251 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271312251 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271312281 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271312856 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271313161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271313299 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271313299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271313613 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271313761 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271313902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271315233 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271315250 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1271316698 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1271317076 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271318399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271318400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271319589 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271319743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But less is so much better than either. < 1271319765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't tried that "either" pager you're speaking about. < 1271319782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or "most", for that matter) < 1271319823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : how esoteric does a language have to be to be discussable on #esoteric? < 1271319838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much. now if you mean to be _on topic_, on the other hand < 1271319960 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271320033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're only on topic about half the time, and most of that seems to be befunge these days. < 1271320042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1271320074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1271320095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's too early again < 1271320415 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-25-238.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271321565 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-167-40-196.range86-167.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271322334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271323615 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271323678 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271323755 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271323757 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Alex3012 < 1271323780 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271323984 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof tableax! < 1271323987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tableaux, even < 1271326003 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271327348 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271330950 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271332771 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271336309 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271337234 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271337631 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271341310 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271341505 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: If it's as esoteric as Perl, then it's allowed. < 1271341511 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least as* < 1271341615 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION holds his breath and installs Eclipse and the JDK < 1271342905 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271343201 0 :TheName!~chatzilla@195.110.7.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271343663 0 :TheName!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1271344435 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-15-70.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271345531 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271347028 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271347110 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271347461 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271347552 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271347670 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-234-37.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271347706 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1271348114 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271348195 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1271348463 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-25-11.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271350154 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-15-70.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271352043 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@129.241.210.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271353642 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271355401 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271355651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271357354 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271359645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. And... I wrote another Brainfuck interpreter. < 1271359648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea why. < 1271359657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that it's much simpler than my previous attempt. < 1271359671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a bit faster. < 1271359675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/BVTg < 1271359764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May not work on systems with odd pointer representations. < 1271360308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, clang appears to handle that better than GCC. < 1271360560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : May not work on systems with odd pointer representations. <-- ? < 1271360575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm doing moderately odd pointer tricks. < 1271360592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well summary, I'm a bit too busy to read it. Have a deadline tomorrow < 1271360596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I'm storing data inside of an array of pointers. < 1271360598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot still to write < 1271360608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1271360612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what < 1271360694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: After the address for +, -, >, or < is the number that those should add to p or *p. < 1271360697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like that volcano ash spread further < 1271360708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23824710-flights-grounded-as-ash-from-icelandic-volcano-closes-uk-airports.do < 1271360719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And after [ or ] is the offset in the array that it should jump to. < 1271360748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(upon entering interp, this is then just computed into a direct address) < 1271360849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basic summary: I wrote 1/2 of a Forth) < 1271361033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, some Finnish news-site said we'll get some ashfall too around 03am. < 1271361058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Sweden affected too < 1271361064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and did you get any ash rain? < 1271361100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't notice anything, what with all the rain rain < 1271361105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, didn't do befunge98? < 1271361116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope. < 1271361124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gave up? Plan to do it later? < 1271361128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it would be bound to that. < 1271361129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later. < 1271361150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, acidic rain probably < 1271361159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1271361196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is volcanic ash basic < 1271361197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the particles are tiny, iirc between 3 microns and 2 mm. And mostly the smaller ones stay aloft longer < 1271361205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271361209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and my wife's father is due to fly back home Birmingham-Stockholm-Helsinki or some-such in a day or two, but now it's a bit uncertain as to how that'll go. < 1271361224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it contains sulphur and fluorine amongst other nasty things < 1271361244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably good fertilizer :D < 1271361247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, he could take the train < 1271361254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, *not* the fluorine < 1271361256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not < 1271361299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in fact various fluorine diseases have been connected with the local area of volcano eruptions before according to wikipedia. < 1271361305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read that yesterday) < 1271361321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271361360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, killing some 50%+ of the lifestock during an eruption somewhere during 1800-1850 on Iceland < 1271361374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and lots of people both directly and indirectly < 1271361380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read about that one < 1271361389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The train takes quite a while; may be faster just to wait. < 1271361443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh. He could take that English channel tunnel, then TGV, then whatever Germany have then X2000, then the Åland ferry < 1271361466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait the one i recall was in the 1700s < 1271361483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it was speculated it helped bring about the french revolution < 1271361521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and I misremembered the date of that one on Iceland. http://www.fof.se/tidning/2007/7/mystisk-vulkansjuka-far-sin-losning < 1271361545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki#1783_eruption < 1271361623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there were several similar ones both before and after < 1271361666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: apparently the english channel trains were quickly full-booked < 1271361688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh. What about ferries then? < 1271361690 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear Germany's trains aren't actually especially fast. They don't have any (or many) special high-speed lines, like France does for TGV. < 1271361707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hire a car? < 1271361708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, it was just a reddit comment < 1271361727 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't they get a train stuck in the chunnel not long ago, too? I seem to vaguely remember. < 1271361895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1271361947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rings a vague bell, or maybe it was a fire < 1271362047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Four Eurostar trains stuck in Channel tunnel" http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/19/four-eurostar-trains-break-down < 1271362060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not quite so recent. < 1271362060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271362079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's less than a year ago, that's recent outside the internet :D < 1271362126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The trains are believed to have failed as they left the cold air in northern France and entered the warmer air inside the tunnel." Yes, that sounds like the trains here, always broken due weather problems. < 1271362197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think finland would be used to weather. but i shouldn't talk, this year has been scandalous for norwegian trains < 1271362267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is the sentiment here too that they should know this stuff already. < 1271362410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been a lot of problems with the Pendolino tilting high-speed trains that were bought from Italy, but I guess it's reasonable they haven't considered real winters down there. < 1271362447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, for Swedish trains too < 1271362479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure during a heavy snowstorm it may be delayed a bit. But it shouldn't take as long to clean things up after < 1271362604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, UK and France you could understand have problems with weather. But the Nordic countries? WTH < 1271362819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271354037.png <-- heh < 1271362826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess it's relative - _noone_ prepares for weather a little worse than usual, wherever they are < 1271362837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah < 1271362856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why couldn't you just build extremely redundant systems. < 1271362873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how many roofs caved in in Norway this winter? < 1271362885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a few of large buildings like warehouses and such in Sweden this winter < 1271362893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one, i think < 1271362895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in north Sweden, hardly any there < 1271362911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they *expect* bad weather < 1271362937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with roofs and snow it's probably often because of lousy snow removal < 1271362981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh yeah that too. Did I mention I saw someone using a snow blower on a warehouse during the winter? < 1271362990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I have the perfect solution < 1271363009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: very nice of that cloud to sweep southwards like that just to get moscow :D < 1271363020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271363044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, build the roofs so you can drive full sized snow plows on them to clear away the snow. Then you won't *need* to clear away the snow because they will stand for about anything < 1271363055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..right < 1271363062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, perfect solution < 1271363136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is also about costs, of course, or rather no one using a penny/cent/øre more than they legally _have_ to, and choosing the lowest bidder < 1271363224 0 :Sgeo|web!~897d6958@gateway/web/freenode/x-bpkeyslsfohlaqla JOIN :#esoteric < 1271363231 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION WTFs at public
void inspect(U u){ < 1271363248 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271363280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes of course you would have to make this a law < 1271363978 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271364158 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271364211 0 :Alex3012!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271364557 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271364691 0 :ENKI-][!~john@c-24-63-206-22.hsd1.ct.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271365624 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: what does it do? < 1271365886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it exactly equivalent to public void inspect(Object u){ or similar, since the code inside cannot possibly use anything that doesn't apply to all objects? < 1271365998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming i recall right that is generics or something like that, i'm not sure what language that is) < 1271366142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271366174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the equivalent would be inspect :: a -> IO () in haskell, which _cannot_ possibly use anything specific to the argument type < 1271366183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the type declaration) < 1271366231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with object-oriented languages and reflection that no longer holds - but then you could still use just Object i think < 1271366242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modulo EVIL stuff. < 1271366249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this all from my vague half-understanding of java < 1271366281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what was that in reference to? < 1271366301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: unsafeCoerce and hope it doesn't break. < 1271366311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "inspect :: a->IO ()" < 1271366359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but that is sort of internal isn't it, not haskell proper < 1271366381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything even slightly portable _would_ break unless you knew the type < 1271366405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafeCoerce can be *done* with Haskell proper, if you include the FFI addendum. < 1271366419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1271366447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still on the break thing. i assume the public thing above is meant not to break... < 1271366449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unsafePerformIO is "real" Haskell you know) < 1271366463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, probably not. < 1271366483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. That inspect function can also take values that aren't Objects. < 1271366494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Java has a small handful of unboxed types) < 1271366494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if you knew it was ghc you could somehow get at least to the GC information... < 1271366540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um isn't that just auto-conversion to Object, anyway? type erasure etc. < 1271366615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my understanding of generics in Java is not great though, the time i read a java tutorial was before they were added < 1271366656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i ran out of steam before writing any actual programs < 1271366670 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just hates the location of the thing < 1271366674 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you can store it < 1271366755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is the logical place to place the , i think < 1271366773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything after is under its scope < 1271367057 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is somewhat used to inspect(U u) < 1271367070 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess you're right < 1271367537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm always right. also don't eat icecream, it's poisonous. < 1271367870 0 :Susan!~rcfunge98@las-static-208.57.3.35.mpowercom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271367920 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would the author of Mycology be on here today? < 1271367934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: are you around? < 1271367937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: let's find out < 1271367937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye < 1271367945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: apparently yes < 1271367963 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a quick question, on the fail of Rc/Funge-98. Is the one in the y command related to the form feed problem? < 1271367990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, yes < 1271368032 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read through the official spec and it does not mention if the form feed should be just ignored on Befunge? or should it actually be loaded to fungespace and the x coordinate increased? < 1271368036 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today is the last day for a while that I will be without Internet access for any significant length of time < 1271368037 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1271368073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: my guess would be to put a literal formfeed into the fungespace < 1271368076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: If it's none of "\n", "\r\n", or "\r", it should be loaded into the Fungespace. < 1271368077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it isn't space, nor newline < 1271368077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: The general understanding is that it's analogous to the way newlines are stated to work in Unefunge < 1271368109 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I will try loading it into fungespace and see if that removes the error. < 1271368163 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology is only fussed when it's treated as something that seems to mess up later space: i.e. EOL or EOF < 1271368215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think Rc/Funge-98 currently starts loading things into higher z-coordinates, even though other planes shouldn't really exist in Befunge) < 1271368273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I wonder if I've actually misthought how form feeds should behave. < 1271368294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, if what I'm thinking now is correct, every interpreter does it wrong. < 1271368350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, even what I'm thinking now leads to the same behaviour. < 1271368406 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: In Unefunge, newlines are treated as appending the next line to the previous: "foo\nbar" becomes "foobar". Analogously, in Befunge, form feeds should be treated as appending the two planes together: "foo\nbar\fbaz" becomes "foo\nbarbaz". I.e. they are ignored. < 1271368501 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a "should be" not "is", though < 1271368511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not unknown for a spec to be internally non-orthogonal < 1271368516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and befunge is full of that sort of thing < 1271368533 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, at least this gives me an idea of what it should do. < 1271368539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because the spec is poorly written, though :-P < 1271368542 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to fix it! lol < 1271368550 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1271368560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan: Are you currently handling Rc/Funge-98 development? < 1271368570 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I am. < 1271368574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funge-98 is at least better-specified than Funge-93. < 1271368600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fun fact: -O3 breaks cfunge on gcc-4.5 < 1271368605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no time to debug it currently < 1271368608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1271368611 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From looking at the code it looks like Rc/Funge-98 IS increasing z on the form feed, even in Befunge mode. < 1271368620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, works just fine on 4.3 and 4.4 < 1271368630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that was suspected (and confirmed by somebody, AnMaster maybe) < 1271368643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes I remember testing it < 1271368645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good chunks of the logic in my Funge-93 interpreter are just undefined behavior. :P < 1271368649 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can confirm it as well. I have the code right in front of me. < 1271368650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is Susan btw? < 1271368667 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan = current maintainer of Rc/Funge-98. < 1271368669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1271368679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope Mike is okay still. < 1271368717 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, to put this as delicate as possible I guess, She decided to end her pain. < 1271368733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fek < 1271368758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she? < 1271368774 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the past 20 some odd years, yes. < 1271368780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1271368786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and damn, I thought we talked him(???) out of it < 1271368816 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike was born intersexed and altered at birth to be a boy. < 1271368819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1271368835 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About his teenage years he decided that he was not a he and his parents made a mistake. < 1271368848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. Ouch < 1271368861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that explains a lot < 1271368862 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And transitioned in his early twenties to female. < 1271368889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and something went wrong? Or? < 1271368924 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hillary, as she renamed herself, could only socially transition. The alterations made at birth prevented a physical transition. < 1271368978 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the end the pain of having an incongruous body drove her mad. < 1271368984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see :/ < 1271369025 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For about the past couple years she was in very severe depression and refused all help, even mine. < 1271369073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan, so lets leave this sad subject, since there isn't anything we can do now about it. I wonder how much interest you have in esolangs. It would be somewhat sad if you just did it because of err, her. Compared to actually being interested in befunge. < 1271369122 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up until Hillary gave me Rc/Funge-98 I had never heard of esoteric languages. My first exposure was her program. < 1271369145 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After playing around with her interpreter, I must say that I am really fascinated. < 1271369204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very well then. :) < 1271369234 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will have to admit that at this point I am on the learning curve. < 1271369279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan, ah :) < 1271369304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's not unknown for a spec to be internally non-orthogonal <-- that made me think about a funge with non-orthogonal vectors for defining funge space < 1271369313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could have some quite interesting properties perhaps < 1271369324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe < 1271369341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep down, I'm hoping that this is just epic trolling rather than an actual suicide < 1271369358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I doubt it is actually true though < 1271369367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call it most likely wishful thinking < 1271369398 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sorry to say Ais523 that the person that you knew as Mike Riley is gone. < 1271369441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch; well, as you're related to him (or at least live in the same house), my condolences < 1271369468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, my condolences too < 1271369474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh ais523 is the maintainer of C-INTERCAL btw. INTERCAL is another esolang. And arguably a _lot_ more confusing.) < 1271369487 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I was not related to her. Just a friend. < 1271369510 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1271369526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A closer friend than we were presumably though. < 1271369548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I messed up the grammar there I think. < 1271369559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think that's correct English < 1271369561 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew her for about 15 years. Yes, close enough that she confided her secret to me. < 1271369567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a comma before though would be more usual < 1271369592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yes that's it < 1271369644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"though" < 1271369659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1271369669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was missing quotes in /my/ comment, so I corrected it < 1271369673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271369674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muphry's law < 1271369691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was a bit confusing though. A sed expression might have made it clearer < 1271369700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Strange he used the name Mike Riley then on IRC and such. I guess we will never know why.) < 1271369717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I use the name ais523 online, though; it's not so weird to use a different name < 1271369735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure. You think this is my name? ;P < 1271369744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it's an identity you'd rather reject, you might be more likely to not use it < 1271369750 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She started her programming career while still a guy. Since she operated a business writing software she continued to use that name professionally when there would be no face to face contact. < 1271369752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you're called arvid < 1271369756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah that is what I meant < 1271369765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, correct but I usually tend to use upper case A there < 1271369783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan, ah hm < 1271369863 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of her credentials were also under Mike Riley, so she was kind of stuck with it. < 1271369887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, ID papers and such? (Note I'm not a native English speaker) < 1271369903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I thought you could do a legal name change) < 1271369917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "credentials" has two meanings, either a generalisation of "username/password", or a generalisation of "degrees and qualifications" < 1271369925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm okay < 1271369933 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Her degree was under Mike Riley. All of her early software was written under that name, and so to maintain her references she needed to keep the name for her software ventures. < 1271369939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the former I know about, but that didn't seem to apply < 1271369954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan, ah I see < 1271369979 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of her other paperwork were changed, drivers license, utility bills and such. < 1271369996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271370031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I don't think I ever asked why it was called _RC_ in RC/Funge. < 1271370043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea? (or Deewiant perhaps) < 1271370073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may've known but don't remember. < 1271370077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271370085 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Her software company was called RCS for Riley Computer Software. I can only imagine that she took the first two letters and attached it to the name of the program. Most of her software was prepended with RC/. < 1271370095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1271370104 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I didn't know that. < 1271370123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Susan, it isn't really a company style of software though. I can't imagine anyone selling a funge interpreter. XD < 1271370124 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The handprint of Rc/Funge-98 is also "RCSU". < 1271370131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(U for Unix) < 1271370151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, isn't cats' eye a company? < 1271370152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I didn't know that < 1271370162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does serious stuff as well as all the esolangs? < 1271370165 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She wrote a lot of software also that she released into the public domain. < 1271370171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't know, who knows. < 1271370193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it could be just a parody or something? < 1271370201 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all the software she wrote was sold. < 1271370212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I didn't say that it was < 1271370217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I hear that if you're in a serious programming job, you need to do frivolous things too to stay sane < 1271370225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random mood-lightener, something by a Swedish comedian (speaks English half the time) that probably mainly Finns will find funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZB77xpu9MY < 1271370243 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1271370244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can imagine. Which is one reason I see to aim for an academic job. < 1271370258 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271370282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why FInns? < 1271370283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's not a "serious programming job"? :-P < 1271370297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the topic is Finnish universities. < 1271370305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271370321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, maybe it's otherwise funny enough as well, I wouldn't know :-P < 1271370333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, depends. Computer science? Then no < 1271370359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on how seriously you do it I imagine < 1271370394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I find that movie rather offensive... < 1271370420 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's that? < 1271370432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, it's probably intentional) < 1271370458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? How can it not be? Did you listen to the Swedish/English or read the text? I can't say if the text is a literal translation < 1271370472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but it seems to keep the offensive bits mostly out of the English parts < 1271370477 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I listened and read, the text is fairly accurate < 1271370487 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, he uses Swedish swear words :-P < 1271370517 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not swear words, but profane vocabulary < 1271370535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1271370551 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you offended by profanity? < 1271370566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, somewhat yes < 1271370571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends. < 1271370584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a strange outlook IMO < 1271370607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm offended by profanity without a reason < 1271370651 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271370663 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, the reason is the comedy < 1271370664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I find it confusing also. I guess only Finns get the references in there < 1271370689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course, one can disagree with that as well < 1271370702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I didn't really find it funny. < 1271370725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, that's why I warned about it :-P < 1271370869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what are the references and where does the profanity come into it? < 1271370902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the profanity I think just fits the theme and the mood < 1271371178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Funge-98 is at least better-specified than Funge-93. <-- sure, but there is more of funge-98, resulting in more of the less well speccced parts than one would have hoped for. < 1271371190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true. < 1271371214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: My wife's brothers are quite some fans of the comedian in question, or at least the Finlandssvenskt Näringsliv thing; had seen that clip earlier. < 1271371240 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: They speak Swedish at home, though, so maybe they can relate. < 1271371255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, Maybe. < 1271371261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, interesting capitalization there. < 1271371277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in what? < 1271371282 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what I said. < 1271371287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271371303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw what is that "pappren inne - sol i sinnet" about? < 1271371313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capitalizing "heh" always seems wrong to me and I guess I then saw "maybe" as starting the sentence < 1271371409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well just that: apply to the university and keep the coming good times in mind, or something to that effect < 1271371457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271371464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it some slogan used over there or something? < 1271371495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1271371501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it's specific to that comedy short < 1271371513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, that clip. < 1271371531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there seems to be more "Finlandssvenskt näringsliv" parodies from him at youtube < 1271371551 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1271371558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sol ute, sol inne, sol i hjertet, sol i sinnet < 1271371598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sol para sol < 1271371716 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oj, sol i norge? < 1271371729 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe not just now < 1271371749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect not at this time of day < 1271371783 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1271371791 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271371887 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271372024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like Ny-Ålesund on Svalbard won't have the sun set completely from tomorrow < 1271372067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, don't listen to them. Yes there is sol i Norge. Yes it is the wrong time for it. Yes you can think of the dreadful consequences yourself. (If not: end of world and so on) < 1271372077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah < 1271372087 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world has already ended in norway? the end is near! < 1271372095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i understand what "upper edge" means at http://www.yr.no/informasjon/1.6629345 < 1271372096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't remember we passed vårdagjämning yet < 1271372111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called in English < 1271372113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nearly a month ago now < 1271372118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is it? okay < 1271372121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spring equinox < 1271372121 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feels like winter ended just a couple of days ago < 1271372162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, my thought exactly < 1271372181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a bit more than that, a week and a half ago or so < 1271372188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at most < 1271372213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snow forecast here in the next couple days < 1271372238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just a little bit i guess < 1271372249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope so < 1271372522 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819] < 1271372804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271372939 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271373531 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@128.198.96.200 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271374146 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271374399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271374708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271374738 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271374976 0 :Susan!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271375034 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271375295 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271375451 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271375491 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271375497 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271375801 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271376467 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271377034 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271377237 0 :ENKI-][!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271377331 0 :ENKI-][!~john@c-24-63-206-22.hsd1.ct.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271377687 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271377803 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271378458 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819] < 1271379541 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271379685 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271379688 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1271380463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271380501 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271381052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1271383662 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271384979 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the refreshing slowness of Eclipse when I leave it running too long < 1271385053 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I click in the wrong place, Eclipse freezes < 1271385129 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to Java < 1271385180 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, Eclipse is the easiest IDE to use for Android dev < 1271385195 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, at least this way, I'm getting experience in a job-ready language < 1271385234 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I click something, a different thing gets hilighted. I have yet to figure out the logic < 1271385422 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm clueless when it comes to artistic stuff. I don't see how I'm going to be able to make launcher icons < 1271385688 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... channel is missing +t < 1271385720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not < 1271385802 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's set by default - so someone removed it < 1271385814 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271385904 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore it's missing < 1271385938 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271385940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was put away < 1271385946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ops know exactly where it is < 1271386025 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+t is /in storage/ ? < 1271386032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271386102 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the channel "does not have" +t < 1271386136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271386161 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1271386399 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION types a line into Eclipse < 1271386403 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches Eclipse freeze < 1271386683 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs ADT < 1271388249 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271388339 0 :ENKI-][!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271388497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1271388549 0 :ENKI-][!~john@c-24-63-206-22.hsd1.ct.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271389093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271389130 0 :ENKI-][!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :enki-2 < 1271389154 0 :enki-2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ENKI-][ < 1271389232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup < 1271389483 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271389533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i updated the chris barker page on esowiki. < 1271389533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::T < 1271389754 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Android tools for Eclipse make up for using Eclipse to get access to the tools < 1271391861 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1271392867 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271396396 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271396582 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1271397444 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271397459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271400067 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271401021 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271403864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271403912 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271404664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, does these tool target java? < 1271404675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not it seems very strange to use eclipse at all < 1271404799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271404800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271405045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so guys < 1271405052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want me to ask the Iota guy any questions? :x < 1271405181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271405193 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271405273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271407069 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271407522 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Android is a Java-ish platform, though they have a customized vm (Dalvik). < 1271407603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gather it's quite different from the usual one (register-based and all that; Java VM is a stack-based thing), but the main way to write code for it is still to start with Java, compile to Java bytecode, then transform into Dalvik executables. < 1271407731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think I remember some completely non-Java thing that still opted to steal Eclipse's IDE bits, though I don't quite remember what that ws.) < 1271408592 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271408660 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271409195 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271409236 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1271411012 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271411061 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271411160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the ops know exactly where it is < 1271411179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory. i don't think anyone has checked for a long time. < 1271413517 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271413948 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@tythes.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271414717 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271414732 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271415048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271415095 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271415257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271415594 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271419455 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271420543 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, Android app development is in Java. < 1271420554 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[or other JVM languages] < 1271424574 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271426663 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271426902 0 :nefas!~nefas@host145-107-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1271426952 0 :nefas!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1271427106 0 :nefas!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271427721 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, we can talk now. < 1271427763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271427866 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271428104 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-4-169.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271428360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I thought you could do native apps on android nowdays? < 1271428402 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1271428475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the topic < 1271428565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, been like that a few days now? < 1271428575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1271428860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently someone patented sending jobs overseas < 1271428877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out whether or not that's funnier than the patent on patent trolling < 1271429377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I've got that weird X-chain-lockup thing < 1271429389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where firefox locks up, then you open an xterm to try to kill it and that locks up too < 1271429401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you press alt-f2 to try to kill that, and that locks up too < 1271429434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, gnome-panel < 1271429457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does control-alt-f1, killall firefox, killall gnome-panel < 1271429461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that didn't lock up too < 1271429587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, going into top, killall -9 mousetweaks seems to solve it < 1271429589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that program? < 1271429595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next time this happens I'm sending a bug report < 1271429844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, apparently someone patented sending jobs overseas <-- ??? < 1271429849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm trying to figure out whether or not that's funnier than the patent on patent trolling <-- ????????? < 1271429859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is "patent trolling"? < 1271429881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it the dbus-crashing lockup? < 1271429889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happened to me a few times < 1271429904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only on my desktop which uses fairly new software < 1271429912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laptop with ubuntu 9.04 is rock solid < 1271429918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pity it isn't a LTS < 1271429923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it's mousetweaks I think < 1271429924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I will need to update sooner or later < 1271429939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? never heard about that < 1271429945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mean < 1271429946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and patent trolling is getting a patent (maybe by buying it) in a business that does nothing else, so it can't be countersued < 1271429950 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and threatening everyone else you can < 1271429955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know what it is either < 1271429967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it's using 100% CPU and causing all my graphical applications to lock up < 1271429976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you call it "mousetweaks"? < 1271429986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's its name < 1271429990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271429994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://live.gnome.org/Mousetweaks/Home < 1271429995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you kill it with killall mousetweaks, etc < 1271429997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems relevant < 1271430007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mousetweaks is an Accessibility Software whose developement started as a GSoC 2007 project under Ubuntu and is part of GNOME since GNOME 2.22. It brings additional fonctionalities to the pointer that allow a user to: [...]" < 1271430019 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f_o_nctonalities < 1271430020 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    | < 1271430020 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   /< < 1271430020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably can just get rid of it < 1271430037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh yeah < 1271430052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it is, I'll leave my mouse setup the same until the bug happens again, so I can hopefully catch and report it < 1271430431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, you can, but you're not supposed to unless you really need to. < 1271430475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The earlier versions of the native SDK didn't let you hook up to the GUI libraries, for example. I'm not sure the current ones do, either, though you can apparently now do OpenGL ES stuff natively now or some-such. < 1271430579 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-7-57.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271430665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that the "high-level stuff with a high-level language and just the performance-critical parts as native modules" idea is necessarily a bad one.) < 1271430818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does it use C for low level? < 1271431215 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271431702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I really need to use >=3 as an emoticon some time < 1271431705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning "do not love" < 1271431711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for the sheer meta-ness of it all < 1271431718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't found any real purposes yet, though < 1271431765 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Java? < 1271431804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1271431804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=3 would just be the negation, "is not the case that I love" < 1271431872 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271432336 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>=3 Befunge < 1271432343 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably because I don't know it < 1271432596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably the most practically useful esolang < 1271432599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that that's saying much < 1271432723 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271432915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, when I read that ">=3", my first reaction was "what a strange logic gate" < 1271432937 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-230-225.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271433424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, yes, in the sense tht there's a (GCC-based, I think) cross-compiler toolchain for C/C++ code included in the NDK, but presumably you can use anything else that can create native ARM code with enough fiddling. < 1271433530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but does it primarily have a C API or a C++ API? < 1271433539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it just provide libc + syscalls? < 1271433553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: which reminds me, we should write a Lisp interp in Nintendo DS asm someday, collectively < 1271433557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely to annoy Joel Spolsky < 1271433579 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The latter, mostly; there's not much android-specific APIs there, but what there is (some logging, the OpenGL ES stuff) is plain C. < 1271433585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, who? < 1271433599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity < 1271433599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah okay < 1271433609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can you access the GSM stuff somehow? < 1271433616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort-of pleased that there's some programmer who still hasn't heard of him despite all the self-promoting he does < 1271433620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably there are some unofficial APIs too < 1271433622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That sounds very unlikely. < 1271433626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which people have found < 1271433646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, the official support part; not the part about unofficial APIs. < 1271433649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well how does the phone itself access it then? Presumably you can gain root somehow as an android user < 1271433664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you could presumably do about anything on the phone < 1271433700 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You have to jailbreak it to get root, as far as I know, and they keep trying to block that. Of course they'll never succeed, but it's still not quite as officially supported. < 1271433812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, sure, you can probably call any system libraries in there, but you wouldn't have the headers or a clue about the data structures and such. Of course with a bit of reverse-engineering. < 1271433839 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which phone are you discussing? < 1271433877 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "a generic Android phone". The Dev Phone's very jailbroken as it comes, and maybe some others too. < 1271433911 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have gotten the impression that most phone manufacturers still for some reason try to discourage that sort of stuff, with a marked lack of success. < 1271433923 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK Android doesn't try very hard not to be jailbroken, making the term 'jailbreak' a bit nonsense. < 1271433975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, for the G1 phone they did fix ways-to-get-root-on-the-device-as-a-normal-user by firmware updates for a while. Maybe they've given up now, though. < 1271434079 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's officially supported on the Nexus One, right? < 1271434084 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just it voids the warantee < 1271434180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure you can call that "officially supported", but admittedly they don't exactly seem to be trying to prevent it. < 1271434185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Users are able to gain root privileges on the device by unlocking its bootloader using the fastboot command "fastboot oem unlock."[46] Unlocking the bootloader allows the user to install other firmware images that give the user root access." < 1271434241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Medding with some unofficial firmware upgrade does sound a bit more of a hassle than how it goes with Maemo. < 1271434401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what just happened < 1271434408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow the theme on the desktop changed < 1271434408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1271434410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the CyanogenMod wp page says of phone-rooting that "These modifications are unnecessary for certain handsets specifically designated for development, such as the Android Dev Phone and the Nexus One, which include an unlocked bootloader", which seems to imply that other manufacturers' handsets try harder. < 1271434412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1098960.847629] gnome-settings-[2390]: segfault at 8 ip 00007f71cc35cd6b sp 00007fff3498eb80 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7f71cc35a000+5000] < 1271434414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1271434435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting it again helped < 1271434461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "gnome-settings-" is nice, though perhaps "gnome-settings-(null)" would've been even more impressive. < 1271434471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh? < 1271434488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think that pid is part of the name there? < 1271434513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the usual format "procname[pid]", and I guess it's gnome-settings-daemon that died? < 1271434538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also it didn't fix it completely. Now there is no line between the menu bar at the top and the desktop < 1271434539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. [536265.105159] jitfunge[14597]: segfault at 8 ip 00000000007e8a9f sp 00007fff5ce3d170 error 4 in jitfunge[400000+650000] < 1271434544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for bottom taskbar < 1271434567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I believe gimp, which was running, never recovered the theme < 1271434574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it looks really funky < 1271434604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like raw GTK+ from the dawn of age. < 1271434631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I also see this a lot in dmsg, and I don't know why: < 1271434633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1067625.343927] pstoedit[31659] trap stack segment ip:7f9abbf20380 sp:21d386e62f8cd09f error:0 < 1271434633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1067672.130657] pstoedit[31665] trap stack segment ip:7ff4ec649380 sp:b9ac11dc59540f1b error:0 < 1271434633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1067675.796438] pstoedit[31670] trap stack segment ip:7ff8c3b18380 sp:c538fcc4a4e9cfbd error:0 < 1271434636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of it < 1271434666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that same as a segfault? I have no idea < 1271434735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a stack-smashing-protection trap, I wonder? < 1271434756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I thought that was libc-based, not in kernel? < 1271434775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it is; I was wondering if the libc was signalling the kernel somehow, maybe by throwing some weird sort of signal < 1271434791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be quite wth < 1271434793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's at least partly compiler support < 1271434803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can have stack-smashing which has nothing to do with the libc < 1271434819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sending SIGABRT (or whatever letters they decided to abbreviate it to) would make more sense < 1271434830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yes it needs compiler support too < 1271434863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some libssp.so or such that gcc builds to support -fstack-protector if your libc doesn't have that stuff in it < 1271434865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271434912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word "trap" is part of one thing, and the "stack segment" is another, but who knows. You get a "trap divide error" for /0 traps, I seem to see here. < 1271434929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1271434938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so what kind of trap is it then < 1271434954 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "stack segment" kind of trap, apparently, but don't know which part triggers it. < 1271434967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't ever remember having used pstoedit, so presumably it is something else that calls it. iirc cups calls some ps* tools < 1271435012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could grep kernel sources but I doubt the words "stack segment" is specific enough... < 1271435037 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arch/x86/kernel/traps.c < 1271435041 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't that many hits for it. < 1271435046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271435084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is some strange 32/64 bit difference for that error it seems < 1271435141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right, for X86_64 there's the non-macro implementation immediately below. < 1271435159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1271435175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Runs on IST stack */ <-- I wonder what IST stack si < 1271435176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is* < 1271435231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do_double_fault also seems to be x86_64 specific which seems rather strange < 1271435283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double-faults are weird < 1271435284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's registered for CPU exception 12. < 1271435288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1271435295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the ones from Apache, that come up when the 404-handling document is itself missing < 1271435297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 12 0Ch | Stack exception: | Occurs for one of two conditions: | - As a result of a limit violation in any operation that | refers to SS (stack segment register) | - When attempting to load SS with a descriptor that is | marked as not-present but is otherwise valid < 1271435297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, that line-joining. < 1271435327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, heh, that was from http://support.microsoft.com/kb/117389 -- I thought it appropriate to use a Microsoft document here. < 1271435351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually all sorts of stuff is broken in gnome even after restarting that thing, will have to restart gnome. bbiab < 1271435455 0 :alise_!~alise@212.183.140.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271435492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay back < 1271435494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brb < 1271435553 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stumbles, teeters and falls. < 1271435562 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets up. < 1271435574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dispatch some-number-or-one-other. < 1271435594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1271435792 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise < 1271435842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will probably be ordering the Nexus One this weekend :D < 1271435856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I KNEW YOU'D SEE THE LIGHT IN THE END < 1271435859 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THere are some issues, with it though, especially with 3G reception. Do you have any comments on those issues? < 1271435882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't heard about 3G reception issues. If you get the T-Mobile version I bet it will be fine. < 1271435887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaked Google Nexus One Firmware Upgrade Could Address Spotty 3G ... < 1271435888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 Feb 2010 ... Remember the Google Nexus One's "sorely needed" 3G reception fix? Remember how Google promised a quick fix? Yes? Well, Happy Valentine's Day ... < 1271435888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gizmodo.com/.../leaked-google-nexus-one-firmware-upgrade-could-address-spotty-3g-reception < 1271435894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it has been patched. < 1271435899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't worry. < 1271435911 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that that patch didn't work, or something < 1271435911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, lol, antibiotics. < 1271435920 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stuck with AT&T < 1271435926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Maybe not? Meh. It should be fine. I don't even have a 3G phone and I never miss it. < 1271435960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/25/google-nexus-one-3g-issues-result-of-poor-coverage-bugs-patch/ < 1271435967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr mostly it's because T-Mobile have shitty 3g coverage < 1271435972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you're not on t mobile < 1271435975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should be fine < 1271435978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AT&T have good 3g coverage < 1271435992 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has reached a bit of a milestone < 1271436022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: btw if you were to consider a nexus one phone, consider the htc desire; there's no real reason to pick one or the other unless you like the desire's pretty homescreen < 1271436031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that they're almost identical < 1271436037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including screen < 1271436051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's in america yet though? < 1271436060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: oh? < 1271436075 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: chapter 5 of K&R2 < 1271436087 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm stuck with AT&T < 1271436094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: and? < 1271436133 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought only Nexus One had AT&T support < 1271436215 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"take the Desire to the US and youll be stuck using quadband EDGE or hunting for WiFi hotspots." < 1271436220 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.slashgear.com/htc-desire-vs-google-nexus-one-2074966/ < 1271436289 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in the case of the HTC Hero, for instance, that means despite Android 2.1 having been available for some time now, the smartphone is still stuck on Android 1.5" < 1271436351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads about Hillary (Riley?). < 1271436355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very sad. < 1271436358 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sounds interesting is the HTC Incredible < 1271436377 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm still stuck with AT&T < 1271436417 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the only nice thing I see about Sense UI, besides prettiness, is the permanent phone button < 1271436422 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, admittedly, nice < 1271436439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:15:35 well sure. You think this is my name? ;P < 1271436441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure is, An Master. < 1271436539 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he should attempt to make his own icons < 1271436590 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <3 AndroidZoom.com < 1271436706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:29:11 Are you offended by profanity? < 1271436707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:29:26 Deewiant, somewhat yes < 1271436715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of many decent comedians that don't swear :P < 1271436728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APART FROM CARROT TOP LOLZ < 1271436738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHH WHAT MACBOOK PROS HAVE I7S IN THEM NOW < 1271436742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop it, Apple, I just escaped you! < 1271436764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the saving throw against a reality distortion field? < 1271436772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buddhism < 1271436794 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, someone told me that it's $99/year to be able to test your own apps on the iPhone. Is that true? < 1271436815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: something along those lines i think yes < 1271436827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omfg < 1271436846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.66ghz i7 + 4gb ram + 500gb hd + 8-9 hr (minus a bit since even apple overestimate the times a bit) battery for 1,799 < 1271436849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a laptop < 1271436856 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is with people using domain names that they don't own for packages? < 1271436868 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is fully willing to use net.diagonalfish.sgeo for stuff < 1271436890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 15-inch MacBook Pro comes with a 1,440-by-900-pixel LED-backlit, glossy display. You can also choose a high-resolution, 1,680-by-1,050 glossy or anti-glare display that gives you 36 per cent more pixels. < 1271436894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like christmas < 1271436940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what's the saving throw against a reality distortion field? <-- in? < 1271436957 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you do any app dev? < 1271436958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone want a 2.66ghz core i7 processor, 8gb of ddr3 ram, a 512gb solid state (!) drive and a 15" 1680x1050 display? < 1271436966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a laptop with ~7hrs battery life? < 1271436982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does it really matter? < 1271436991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll give you to it for 3,238.99 plus 1 penny for my advertising costs :-P < 1271436993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no < 1271436993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any random context in which those terms are defined < 1271436993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well possibly it is some table top rpg? < 1271436998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I dislike Objective-C < 1271437008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it's an RPG reference < 1271437010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, not a specific one < 1271437011 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and I'm a Javaphobe. I'll deal < 1271437019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: android scripting environment < 1271437024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like using goto. < 1271437025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or things like $lang-on-JVM < 1271437036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Wait, is this not a confessional? < 1271437046 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, those aren't to the level of apps yet [ASE]. Also, I should probably learn Java anyway < 1271437048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with goto < 1271437053 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another job-ready language can't hurt < 1271437060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no, you shouldn't < 1271437061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really shouldn't < 1271437071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I noticed that < 1271437084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, especially GCC's goto extensions < 1271437086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you don't want that kind of job < 1271437086 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anonymous inner classes do help ease the pain a little < 1271437089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, how *else* are you supposed to implement threaded code? :) < 1271437098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in asm? < 1271437108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat portably? < 1271437124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sec, will find a link < 1271437137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: setjmp! < 1271437142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?StringThreadedCode < 1271437145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't run on multiple architectures so bite my ass. < 1271437159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/officially/, you can't use it for that, but it can be abused to do that in ways that work on most architectures < 1271437166 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's.. odd how .. universal.. Barcode Scanner is < 1271437177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: wut < 1271437179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love forth < 1271437180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Only lets you jump up the stack, or maybe down if you're careful not to overwrite the stack frame. < 1271437205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the trick is, you make two completely different stacks, and use a few OS-dependent tricks in order to make them both legit as stacks < 1271437210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you use setjmp to jump between them < 1271437211 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, several sites, including AndroidZoom.com, and the Android reddit, make use of QR codes, to be read by Barcode Scanner < 1271437220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is ofc completely against the C standard, but who cares, this is #esoteric < 1271437222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur a barcode scanner < 1271437228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh I wonder if you could do threaded code with getcontext()/setcontext()? < 1271437230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So what you're really saying is getcontext and setcontext. < 1271437235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_somehow_ < 1271437239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but that's /boring/ < 1271437244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "This violates several international laws, but who cares, this is #esoteric" < 1271437248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same thing. < 1271437258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just as much of a pain! < 1271437261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: surely the C standard isn't /that/ binding < 1271437271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Merely a hypothetical situation < 1271437277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more along the lines of "the documentation says that trying that will probably make it break, but who cares, this is #esoteric" < 1271437282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, getcontext et al are at least part of *a* standard. < 1271437291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no longer < 1271437292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1271437300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were dropped in POSIX.1-2008 < 1271437301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a case of "doing this violates your duty to someone else", but "doing this means you can't rely on other people's promises to you" < 1271437308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The previous versions of standards do not cease to exist. < 1271437328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, they are marked as archived in ieeexplorer at least to me < 1271437329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I check < 1271437339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so is the current one huh < 1271437343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess that means nothing < 1271437347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They. Do. Not. Cease. To. Exist. < 1271437349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1271437355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, Flash CS5 will export to HTML5 Canvas+JavaScript < 1271437357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1271437361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1271437369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: course they do, the new standard says so < 1271437376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Bah. < 1271437377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that + dissing on apple's ridiculous policies... are they trying to jump out of the evil ditch? < 1271437387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and that has the full force of international law < 1271437402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the full force of REALITY < 1271437403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my impression from Adobe is not that they're evil through choice, just really incompetent < 1271437407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No it doesn't. < 1271437419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Standards organizations are not international law. < 1271437426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot be tried in the Hague for violating them. < 1271437428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are they? < 1271437450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they were, POSIX itself would be tried. < 1271437470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for crimes against humanity? < 1271437475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least the computer-using portion of it? < 1271437480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1271437502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, computers use other computers too < 1271437507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suffer as well < 1271437524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, but AFAIK torturing a computer is not currently illegal, a lamentable lack in our current legal systems < 1271437563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hi, EDWRD; you get to brute-force Malbolge programs all day. And night. < 1271437564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1271437572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That violates my rights!" "You don't have any." < 1271437609 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confident that he'll survive Java < 1271437632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is so naive. < 1271437640 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can survive LSL < 1271437651 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java can't be that much worse < 1271437662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, *nave < 1271437667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL? < 1271437676 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if I bend good design a little, and use the this thing for callbacks, it will be roughly on-par with LSL < 1271437683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is LSL? < 1271437685 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, the language used by Second Life scripts < 1271437687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1271437695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have known it was something like that < 1271437700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it was Sgeo_ mentioning it < 1271437709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, Java's major advantage - and major issue - is taking good practices to a degree sufficiently insane that they become bad practices < 1271437737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the belief that verbosity is good. < 1271437744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how can that be an advantage at all? < 1271437749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think it's more a belief that consistency is good < 1271437750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leaks pus < 1271437757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it makes it considerably harder to write bad code < 1271437763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it can be done, and frequently is < 1271437764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1271437784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new CallBacker() { public void callBack() { ... } } < 1271437788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if I needed a team of idiots to write code, I'd probably get them to do it in Java on the basis that the resulting code might have a chance of being usable or at least debuggable < 1271437790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ This... Is lambda. < 1271437791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does java one-liners exist at all? < 1271437794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use it commonly. < 1271437797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure, just remove all the newlines < 1271437805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: err, why not use Runnable for that < 1271437808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: except it cannot access non-final variables from the outside < 1271437808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well reasonably unreadable ones < 1271437810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, it /exists/ for that purpose < 1271437823 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runnable? < 1271437826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, right. Need to manually add variables to the closure. < 1271437826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once did hello world in java using structs and static initialisers < 1271437829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was beautiful < 1271437835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shorter than the regular class version < 1271437840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: exactly what pikhq does, but standard rather than reinventing the wheel < 1271437866 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what about making the calling class implement the interface, and calling the function with this? < 1271437872 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that really bad practice? < 1271437878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271437888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it prevents you doing it more than once < 1271437900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not a Java programmer. < 1271437904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you just invented singleton design pattern or something < 1271437913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, that's something entirely different < 1271437913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly broken) < 1271437922 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're careful and have a member of the class tracking which case you're .. hm, LSL rotted my mind < 1271437938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Sgeo_ suggested was along the lines of using global variables, except locally rather than globally, but still with most of the disadvantages of global variables < 1271437940 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I'd even think that that's acceptable < 1271437942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I know what singleton is, I just have no clue about java. But "it prevents you doing it more than once" sounds like part of singleton to me ;P < 1271437953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, a singleton object is an object you only have one of < 1271437957 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL and global variables. Two horrible tastes that just can't be separated < 1271437960 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the problem < 1271437963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's entirely different from a code structure that can only be used once in your code < 1271437963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Java programmers *argue against syntactic sugar for this*. < 1271437968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes. It wasn't clear to me what you could only do once < 1271437974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*For freaking lambda*. < 1271437987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think I know why; it's because it's a couple of keystrokes to do the whole Runnable thing in any good IDE < 1271437999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so they don't acknowledge that there's a problem < 1271438000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I argue we should have syntax sugar for lambda in C ;P < 1271438003 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Eclipse considered a "good IDE"? < 1271438010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Check. < 1271438017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: probably good enough, although terribly slow < 1271438032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? As in the chess term or as in checking something? < 1271438033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use NetBeans, merely because I happened to have it installed, and it's easily good enough for my purposes < 1271438034 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe ADT stuff for Android is all Eclipse < 1271438042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The end title designer forgot to use punctuation when writing the end credits. This resulted in all assistants being listed as i.e. "ass designer" or "ass painter".]] < 1271438047 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, other IDEs can be used, but you don't get the tools < 1271438047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Yeah, got it." < 1271438051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1271438080 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is the SomeClass.this.someMember stuff documented? < 1271438092 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I didn't see someone mention it, I would not have known of its existance < 1271438120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: in the documentation, of course < 1271438126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, .this. looks very suspicious < 1271438160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the documentation tends to be heavily integrated in Java IDEs; it needs to be, it's such a pain to do anything otherwise < 1271438188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm CLC-INTERCAL has lectures and classes, but I think adding a "that" as a parody of "this" sounds like a fun idea < 1271438191 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should attempt to compile this Hello World or something < 1271438211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would completely break INTERCAL's syntax < 1271438216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is possibly enough of a reason to implement it by itself < 1271438225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? The phrase THAT? < 1271438238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what do you mean < 1271438238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: using a keyword to alias a variable < 1271438247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL expressions just don't do that < 1271438249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1271438267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're mostly just line noise, with the oververbose keywords being for statements < 1271438274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it wouldn't point to the own class or lecture of course. < 1271438294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes that Java will merely be unbearable, rather than poisonous < 1271438306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: don't worry, it's entirely sane enough, just annoying < 1271438308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, you could do native code for the phone < 1271438316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not if you want to use gui stuff < 1271438320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... anything < 1271438324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the apis are java < 1271438325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't consider the verbosity of java to be sane < 1271438327 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, before I do any non-Java stuff, I should probably actually get a test app running on the phone < 1271438340 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, that's unbearable, not mind poisoning < 1271438365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, hm I guess you could say that < 1271438368 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL's reliance on global variables, however, IS mind-poisoning < 1271438378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271438386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real reason that problems happen in Java, I think, is the lack of sane defaults (or rather, /any/ defaults) for most of the standard libraries < 1271438395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not bad, just tedious < 1271438410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, have you heard about the scoping rules of bash and how to return a variable in the callers scope (or anywhere above local scope for that matter) < 1271438419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I mentioned it in here before ;P < 1271438432 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're doing bash scripting in my UNIX class now < 1271438439 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it, the syntax is incomprehensible < 1271438452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash is one of the worst languages. < 1271438454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's why something like a simple text box with a spinner can come out to far too much code because you have to say /just what/ sort of numbers the spinner spins through, and in what order, and maybe you want letters instead? or arbitrary INTERCAL statements? < 1271438459 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stop bashing it < 1271438462 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=($@) is different from a=$@ < 1271438467 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't know why < 1271438478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: because parens aren't used for grouping in bash, they're an operator < 1271438485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, Would you call this mind poisoning?: foo() { printf -v "$1" "foo data"; } bar() { local myvar; foo myvar; echo "$myvar"; } < 1271438493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run bar, it will print "foo data" < 1271438504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you understand why (a)(:): and (a):: are different in Underload, you should go some way towards realising why they're different in bash < 1271438509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, reason to do this is to avoid subshells < 1271438525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a subshell can't affect variables outside it < 1271438531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so using $() is bad sometimes < 1271438533 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I'm a bit confused < 1271438539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, about? < 1271438540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that said, an esolang that did operator precedence by calling itself recursively sounds fun) < 1271438552 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local < 1271438572 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why printf and not echo? < 1271438583 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, n/.. I'm confused < 1271438614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a=($@) is different from a=$@ <-- the former declares an array of space-splitting all the cmd line args (you need quotes to avoid it!) The second... hm. I think it does a=$1 $2 ... < 1271438622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably not what was intended at all < 1271438632 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That bit me < 1271438643 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe professor gave us something like a=($@) without explanation < 1271438645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between $* and $@ again < 1271438651 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I decided not to write the parens < 1271438672 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather write JAVA than ever touch Bash agaim < 1271438674 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*again < 1271438687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is complicated and depends on if you use quotes around or not < 1271438697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, what? < 1271438702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, you dislike bash because of that? < 1271438716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parens mean an array, without them it isn't one < 1271438720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is how simple it is < 1271438723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike bash because while loops tend to run in subshells < 1271438755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, only if you don't know how to avoid it < 1271438763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, foo | while ... yes < 1271438780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not while ...; do ...; done <(foo) < 1271438807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, quoting man bash: "$@" is equivalent to "$1" "$2" ... < 1271438819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"$*" is equivalent to "$1c$2c...", where c is the first character of the value of the IFS variable. < 1271438828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is usually a space < 1271438840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wow, I didn't even realise the order of characters in IFS mattered < 1271438845 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is Eclipse so slow? < 1271438863 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The.. order of characters.. in IFS.. matters < 1271438865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: hundreds of layers of design patterns < 1271438873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't say I remembered it. I don't generally mess with IFS. I think I changed it once. And that was in envbot and I reset it quickly after < 1271438882 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY does the order of characters in IFS matter? < 1271438898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, because of sh compat I guess? < 1271438901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the system knows which ones to use if it's trying to make a list, presumably < 1271438920 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, my screen is not large enough to accomodate a 800x480 screen < 1271438927 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/screen/resolution/g < 1271438946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, wth? Is that some mini-netbook? Or a phone? < 1271438955 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, phone < 1271438966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, well why are you doing that on a phone? < 1271438992 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want to see my modified hello world app work? < 1271439014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc the only way the order matters in IFS is to decide which char will be used for separating lists and such that bash outputs. < 1271439028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could have used a separate variable for that < 1271439042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would have been a waste of memory on those old systems where sh was invented < 1271439046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably) < 1271439115 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My emulator seems to be not working nicely right now :( < 1271439180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, did you mean you couldn't fit a 800x480 on your phone screen? < 1271439192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is how I interpreted the answer < 1271439198 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I couldn't fit it on my laptop screen < 1271439204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, well okay that is strange < 1271439206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1271439219 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, it might be 480x800 < 1271439219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, how large is it? 12"? < 1271439239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is somewhat more reasonable not being able to fit in height direction < 1271439242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes widescreen sucks < 1271439246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what??? < 1271439248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a laptop < 1271439250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION longs for the days of 4:3 < 1271439250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a netbook < 1271439264 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's resolution is 1280x800 < 1271439395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:04:12 want me to ask the Iota guy any questions? :x < 1271439398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ARE YOU A FELINE < 1271439399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would do < 1271439413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:48:51 (I think I remember some completely non-Java thing that still opted to steal Eclipse's IDE bits, though I don't quite remember what that ws.) < 1271439415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp has done it < 1271439457 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't I find my app on the emulator? < 1271439508 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Eclipse says that the emulator disconnected < 1271439637 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271439665 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has an idea for an app < 1271439704 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1271439716 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The emulator is too slow for Eclipse! How's that for irony? < 1271439975 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-231-247.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271440074 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Not making the emulator have Nexus One's screen specs is nice < 1271440417 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271440439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is skeptical of AMS Euler < 1271440658 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271440720 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271440924 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-12-238.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271440991 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271441308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271442453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The emulator is too slow for Eclipse! How's that for irony? <-- heh < 1271442647 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how wel Jaskell works < 1271442856 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271443131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insufficiently, I'm sure. < 1271443246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity <-- AnMaster not knowing things restores your faith in humanity? < 1271443262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: anyone not knowing things < 1271443278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see someone or something which is advertised to death, you feel happy when someone doesn't know about it < 1271443283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what didn't he know? < 1271443292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jaskell.codehaus.org/ < 1271443292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joel spolsky < 1271443293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity <-- AnMaster not knowing things restores your faith in humanity? <-- when? < 1271443296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My lord it is hideous < 1271443299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[$$<>$$ where ]] < 1271443302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The following expressions all evaluate to "hello": < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<>>> < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<(hello)>>> < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<{hello}>>> < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$<>$$ < 1271443307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$<(hello)>$$ < 1271443309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$<{hello}>$$ < 1271443314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what context? < 1271443319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if-then-else < 1271443319 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In response to Joel Spolsky < 1271443320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if-then-else is the only native conditional statement in Jaskell. < 1271443320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike many imperative languages such as Java, the "else" clause is mandatory. < 1271443320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The following expression evaluates to 5: < 1271443320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 1==1 then 1 else 5 < 1271443322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(WHAT) < 1271443328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up < 1271443333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just a typo, but it makes everything so much funnier < 1271443335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 3ish hours ago < 1271443340 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are these cases any good? http://www.case-mate.com/Google-Cases/Case-Mate-Google-Nexus-One-Tough-Cases.asp < 1271443342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was that around when I said about disconnecting? < 1271443347 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: does the quoting of hello require exactly four bracket-variants around it? < 1271443347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed the replay was broken < 1271443348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: don't bother with a case < 1271443349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember < 1271443350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to wrong setting < 1271443354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: who knows < 1271443356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I didn't get any replay after reconnecting < 1271443364 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I _will_ drop it at some point, in all liklihood < 1271443373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, this website uses frames < 1271443373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yeah a case won't help < 1271443377 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have a distressing tendency to drop phones < 1271443414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1271443431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jaskell $$< is Perl qq, Jaskell <<< is Perl q < 1271443436 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm? < 1271443440 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271443440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing insane is the names of the operators < 1271443463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're still pretty insane < 1271443511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's something simultaneously horrifying and elegant about that switch construct < 1271443512 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Jaskell != Haskell on the JVM? < 1271443528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, if you drop phones get one of those toughened ones < 1271443531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it seems to be on the JVM, but its syntax is certainly radically different from Haskell's < 1271443543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't read far enough to know if the semantics are remotely similar < 1271443555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK there is no Haskell for JVM < 1271443577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F# < 1271443578 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How difficult could Haskell on the JVM possibly be? < 1271443579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1271443580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, I remember hearing on radio a test of a mobile phone that survived being driven over by a van! < 1271443587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, it wasn't a smartphone though < 1271443590 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, is it an Andr.. right < 1271443619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, it was some call-sms-bw-screen Ericcoson one, marked to construction workers and such < 1271443624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marketed* < 1271443626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: F# is on .NET, too :-P < 1271443633 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F# is on the JVM? < 1271443638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's only on .NET, is the point < 1271443640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, .NET < 1271443643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1271443653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides, is an ML-derivative rather than Haskell-derivative < 1271443656 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought your point was that F# is approximately Haskell < 1271443661 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call me when you can use .NET stuff on Android < 1271443662 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the .NET/JVM thing was just a mistake < 1271443664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I was just trolling < 1271443670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was obvious < 1271443673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the running in the following line < 1271443680 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you only trolled in one point, not two, though < 1271443685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, when trolling, being factually accurate doesn't work so well < 1271443687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1271443690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdavm < 1271443743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this lang starts to look a bit more haskellish halfway down < 1271443761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "call by need" seems rather vague, though < 1271443787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suppose in a pure lang, pretty much all the lazy calling conventions are identical, because there's no way to tell them apart < 1271443842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, oh btw that phone finally gave up when they drove over it with an excavator iirc XD < 1271443853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find any link though < 1271443857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc it was in Swedish < 1271443862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the test) < 1271443917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Jaskell doesn't seem /that/ insane < 1271443919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Call me when you can use .NET stuff on Android <-- presumably you could compile mono for it < 1271443927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is based on linux < 1271443937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it isn't really < 1271443940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on Java < 1271443948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux is there, but it's a long way away from a standard Linux system < 1271443952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1271443968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like, sitting down at an elisp interpreter and asking "am I on Linux", to which the correct answer is "why do you care?" < 1271443970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, linux would still be the lowest layer and java higher up < 1271443981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, but you can't communicate with the lowest layer < 1271443987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might as well be made of kittens < 1271443997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I would care because the one thing I want on my phone is a bash shell :P < 1271444007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually, you can. < 1271444010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be the main reason to get a linux based phone < 1271444011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, ok < 1271444015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just unrecommended? < 1271444025 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Java runtime on Android allows you to load .so files. < 1271444038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then everything else should be easy :D < 1271444040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason for *using* Java is because the Android API itself is in Java. < 1271444074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the notion of a Java shell (along the lines of csh) even make any sense at all, I wonder? < 1271444080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think some more linuxish phone would fit me better < 1271444089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you have some linux phone? < 1271444104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *shudder* < 1271444113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, csh? < 1271444113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terrible syntax for a shell. < 1271444116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1271444126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something's wrong here < 1271444133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1271444140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mere mention of csh makes people shudder sufficiently that they don't realise that doing it with Java would be even worse < 1271444151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm shuddering at the idea of a Java shell. < 1271444153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmm... isn't that what Powershell is, come to think of it, except with .NET rather than Java?) < 1271444164 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1271444165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :csh is fairly poor, but it's at least *usable* as a shell. < 1271444182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Powershell adds syntactic sugar. < 1271444193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: as does .NET generally < 1271444205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's only a ".Net shell" in the sense that it's essentially a REPL for .Net. < 1271444208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find C# really confusing to read, the mix of syntaxen is as bad as Perl < 1271444287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ouch you are right *shudder so violent it registers as 2.2 on the Richter scale* < 1271444313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about csh with java syntax) < 1271444325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus points for using it interactively < 1271444327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g < 1271444334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, using what interactively? < 1271444339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shell? < 1271444365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, jsh or whatever we call it < 1271444368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *syntaxes < 1271444369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop abusing plurals < 1271444375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, csh isn't /that/ bad < 1271444378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bad, but not world-endingly bad < 1271444386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I find C# really confusing to read, the mix of syntaxen is as bad as Perl <-- better than Java at least. How did you do attributes and generic types in java now again? < 1271444388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it makes you feel better, I used the word "syntaxen" knowing it was wrong < 1271444396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but it's irritating :P < 1271444403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when you consider that what it was improving on was *old-school* Bourne shell. < 1271444406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :attributes I can't remember, because I've never used them (assuming we mean the same thing by the word) < 1271444414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It added *job control*. < 1271444415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but generics is done exactly the same way syntax-wise as C++ < 1271444437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the relative sanity of that idea, I'll leave up to you to decide < 1271444438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, C# has a _fairly_ clean syntax for generics < 1271444446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat C++ based yes < 1271444456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Java it's basically HashMap or whatever < 1271444462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not quite as unreadable and not having the other issues of C++ templates < 1271444483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, the new version of GCC apparently doesn't print default template arguments by default any more < 1271444484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, similar in C# and how do you define HashMap generic? < 1271444492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which presumably helps a lot against error message spam < 1271444499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's in the standard library < 1271444502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, class HashMap or some such? < 1271444506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Still not as good as Clang. < 1271444511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well assuming you want to make a similar class yourself.... < 1271444511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you're defining your own thing generic, you just put the angle brackets in < 1271444513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a generic one < 1271444515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271444518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is basically how compiler error messages should be *done*. < 1271444523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and then refer to T1 and T2 in the code? < 1271444527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1271444529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sounds exactly like C# then < 1271444541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: C#'s basic syntax isn't bad < 1271444544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just went overboard with extensions < 1271444554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which isn't quite like C++ thankfully. C++ after all does the template keyword for it. And for other things < 1271444566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing the template keyword on something else than a class < 1271444567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the LINQ stuff; I know, let's do functional-style programming with map and filter etc, but I know, let's use SQL syntax! < 1271444578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can have template functions in C++ < 1271444582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what do you mean by attributes btw then? < 1271444591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/btw then/then btw/ < 1271444603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure; I've vaguely heard it's some way of tagging something to mean something, but I'm not really sure < 1271444612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that annotations? < 1271444615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I saw mandlebrot in sql once. Might have been PL/SQL or sich < 1271444616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such* < 1271444618 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271444643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the issue isn't with SQL itself (it's OK for what it's meant to do), but randomly embedding its syntax in a C-resembling (or Java-resembling) language < 1271444665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well iirc that thing is cleaner in C#. Used for various things. Remember doing meta programming by getting all classes tagged with a certain attribute in the compiled file < 1271444704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't that exist? As embedded sql or such? Fairly old and obscure thing iirc < 1271444717 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you don't need to use the special LINQ syntax to use LINQ < 1271444747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: var lownums = from n in numbers where n < 5 select digits[n]; < 1271444749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_SQL < 1271444756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err what? < 1271444758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that that I'm talking about < 1271444764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(example taken straight from Microsoft's docs) < 1271444766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wth does it do < 1271444774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I only worked with .NET 2.0 < 1271444776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing newer < 1271444778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no, but presumably it exists for a reason < 1271444795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pretty much what you'd expect if you think about what the similar SQL and Java statements would do < 1271444813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm pretty surprised that you ever worked with .NET, you don't seem to be the type < 1271444814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "similar java statement"? < 1271444815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1271444824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also: it seems backwards compared to SQL < 1271444829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I noticed that too < 1271444846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but what do you mean with similar java statement? < 1271444850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, an assignment < 1271444856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think I know java? < 1271444868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I mostly worked with mono not .NET < 1271444878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it was ages ago < 1271444880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you know the bits of Java syntax which are near-identical to C and C# syntax, yes < 1271444884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1271444890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does the "var" there do < 1271444894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type inference < 1271444894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik it is not C# < 1271444897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I forgot a LOT < 1271444902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, C# does that < 1271444906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only for declarations < 1271444906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it new? < 1271444910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1271444946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't that be some array or list type in the example above? < 1271444962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's an array, you're indexing it < 1271444970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean that the var goes to < 1271444973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with exactly the same syntax as in more or less every C-like sane language ever < 1271444980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be list or array or set or dict as far as I can see < 1271444985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1271444992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well probably not dict there < 1271444997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but set or list would make sense < 1271445004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually sure what it is, the evil thing about type inference is that you can't tell by looking at the relevant bit of code < 1271445008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set especially so since that is what SQL kind of returns < 1271445018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even in Haskell, it's good style for top-level functions to be annotated with what types are supposed to be inferred) < 1271445026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1271445029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, SQL results are ordered < 1271445065 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL at porn spam on AndroidZoom: < 1271445066 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Its Peekababe - our newest, coolest and sexiest android app ever!. With the flick of your wrist and a twist of your iPhone, watch their clothes slide off." < 1271445068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if you use group by or whatever sure < 1271445073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err not that one < 1271445077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :order by < 1271445079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORDER BY? < 1271445080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1271445085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a bit since I used sql < 1271445086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't, IIRC the results are supposed to be in natural order < 1271445097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: search-and-replace fail? < 1271445100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, not even that < 1271445105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manual-search-and-replace fail < 1271445109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (even in Haskell, it's good style for top-level functions to be annotated with what types are supposed to be inferred) < 1271445117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a dependently-typed language sometimes (often) you must annotate types < 1271445125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1271445131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm I can't figure out which one maps to from in SQL: "from n in numbers" "select digits[n]" < 1271445137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's impossible-as-in-deciding-truth-or-falsity-of-arbitrary-higher-order-propositions-impossible to infer < 1271445139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C#'s "type inference" is basically just inferring variable types from their initialisers < 1271445147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is substantially more decidable, I imagine < 1271445174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it could be decided at runtime in C# I assume? < 1271445177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: incidentally, one of the things I'm doing for work in Real Life right now involves trying to construct a program which is formally undecidable to infer types for < 1271445189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i think that's easy < 1271445190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: err, determining types at runtime in a statically typed language? < 1271445193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so do I < 1271445198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is .NET though? < 1271445201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have to work within the constraints of the language I have < 1271445203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not a typical one < 1271445205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: make the type of some thing depend on the veracity of some independent-from-axioms statement? < 1271445215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean it is an System.Object unless it is a value type < 1271445220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was planning to compile Diophantine equations into the type system < 1271445225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the value type thing confuses things a bit < 1271445236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, that is a better approach < 1271445238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means enum, integer, struct, float plus a few misc things iirc < 1271445258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost everything else is an object. And you can get boxed integers and so on < 1271445269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: IIRC Chaitin has a diophantine equation that implements Lisp, but the equation itself isn't really needed, just a way to construct it from a class which is known to contain undecidable elements < 1271445287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaitin is one of my heroes. < 1271445312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "is my hero", but wanted to parenthesise "(is one of)", then realised I'd need "hero(es)", then just decided to expand it. < 1271445321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: I was planning to compile Diophantine equations into the type system <-- what about doing something like perl undecidability proof? < 1271445336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the point is, the language itself is decidable < 1271445339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what your constraints is < 1271445341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are* < 1271445343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you fail at "undecidability" < 1271445343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also what that perl proof means < 1271445347 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leads to the crazy case of a decidable language with an undecidable type system < 1271445350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint: it's about syntax, not typing) < 1271445354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah :D < 1271445359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, that requires compile-time code execution < 1271445362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is this language? < 1271445368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: decidable as in it is runnable? < 1271445381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it supposed to be generic "any language with these properties"? < 1271445381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: decidable as in bounded storage < 1271445383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most dependent type systems have undecidable type systems but can be executed perfectly well < 1271445397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can tell whether it halts or not by running it until you either get a repeat of the program state or it exits < 1271445398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well < 1271445398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is-of-type X is decidable < 1271445398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not x is-of-type ? < 1271445413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, x is-correctly-typed is undecidable < 1271445427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271445429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the types of everything, though, x halts is decidable < 1271445473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god, kolmogorov complexity is so sexy < 1271445473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make a billion esolangs about it < 1271445493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, use this diophantine equation as the sample < 1271445493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loads the page < 1271445493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaitin made a Diophantine equation for the bits of \Omega < 1271445549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, the theorem that there is no perfect size-optimising compiler is called the "full employment theorem" < 1271445550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1271445610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /really/ silly part is that, although I haven't proved it yet, I /think/ it's possible to prove that any code in the language that types incorrectly is necessarily dead code, and the bits that actually run can be typed correctly < 1271445623 0 :alise_!~alise@212.183.140.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271445627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and if you're wondering what sort of lang has that property, let's just say it's a rather unusual type system) < 1271445636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bbl the /really/ silly part is that, although I haven't proved it yet, I /think/ it's possible to prove that any code in the language that types incorrectly is necessarily dead code, and the bits that actually run can be typed correctly < 1271445668 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is it a language formulated for the purposes of this; some other academic language; or something that somebody actually made up for "real"? < 1271445681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, by "academic language" I mean "for the purposes of studying its properties"; the latter would presumably be "academic" too. < 1271445700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the last; the type system isn't being used for the purposes that type systems are normally used for, though < 1271445707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a static-bounding type system < 1271445716 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/omega2.r ;; this is the diophantine equation to compute \Omega, I think < 1271445724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving maximum bounds on the number of times things can be run in parallel < 1271445728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... to a certain precision, I think < 1271445742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the exhaustive-parallel-program-running approach, I imagine? < 1271445746 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1271445748 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just an equation < 1271445780 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, the back button dismisses the keyboard < 1271445826 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it's touch-sensitive not an actual button on the nexus one :P < 1271445840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: anyway, the point is that variables only used by dead code take up storage, but aren't actually used and so you don't need actual storage for them < 1271445846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271445860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true but also seemingly out-of-context. < 1271445860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet, as the storage bounds are determined by the type system, the typing has to take the dead code into account < 1271445863 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1271445870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1271445884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a type system that encodes things like complexity and storage usage? < 1271445888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1271445894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4pXcfgH4fE < 1271445906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dreamt of that, once; well, actually just complexity. Then someone pointed out to me that analysing complexity was really hard, and I stopped thinking about it. < 1271445923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding complexity is relatively easy if you're insisting on finite storage < 1271445929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's always just O(1), the question is, what number < 1271446032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a nice quote about Knuth not being satisfied with "on the order of O(n log n)", instead giving an exact result with an approximated number; and /then/ he'd calculate that number to 10 decimal places. < 1271446048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271446154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think some encoding of the lambda-calculus is the best way to do Kolgomorov complexity -- sorry, John Tromp -- because of the iffiness of IO. < 1271446169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need something that naturally yields some piece of data -- say, a list of naturals -- as part of computation. < 1271446187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not something so unpredictable as Brainfuck's tape, that gets littered with rubbish and has to be cleaned up after-the-fact. < 1271446376 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271446382 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133D29.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271446382 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Brainfuck Android app < 1271446400 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I saw that once < 1271446401 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll make a Befunge interpreter < 1271446412 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to learn Befunge first, ofc < 1271446421 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe make INTERCAL Android < 1271446436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make an actual android that can program in INTERCAL. < 1271446450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Befunge-93 is pretty easy to interpret < 1271446453 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That isn't what I meant, but you can do that too, if you like to < 1271446456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fine points of Befunge-98 can be chaos, though < 1271446478 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-93 isn't TC, apparently < 1271446483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't. < 1271446502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it's a PDA, only finite amounts of storage can be accessed without permanently deleting some of it < 1271446529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't really a very good way to express it; I know what I mean, but the standard conditions for being likely to be a PDA are kind-of hard to define < 1271446538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a very informal way of guessing: "one stack") < 1271446542 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best food at Japanese restaurant I had was yesterday < 1271446559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's where yesterday went < 1271446561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the food was a timespan? < 1271446568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how often do you eat at Japanese restaurants? < 1271446572 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was called Sushi Plus. It was different than other Japanese restaurants I have been to, but I prefer it at that place < 1271446576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Every yesterday. < 1271446592 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not very often but occasionally I do, but not too rarely either < 1271446646 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first place the stack is mentioned is in the instruction set :/ < 1271446650 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At Sushi Plus restaurant they served soup with rice noodles and beef teriyaki with eggs and rice together but no sauce. They also had a whiteboard with writing in Japanese, I could understand some of it but some of it I asked them what it meant so they said < 1271446689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful; I hadn't realised that the Befunge specs were /quite/ that disorganized < 1271446757 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't have to ask for spoon, they served spoon with both the soup and with the beef/rice. Of course they had chopsticks as well. I find it useful to use chopstick and spoon together < 1271446758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what, in Befunge-98? < 1271446759 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm looking at the wiki < 1271446760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is completely false. < 1271446782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think we're discussing -93, although I'm not sure < 1271446783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, /most/ of the -98 spec is okay; it's just the instructions that are really abdly specified < 1271446792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting an understanding of -93 first helps before moving onto -98 < 1271446796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no canonical -93 spec afaik < 1271446807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one returned by Google is pretty canonical < 1271446833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hm < 1271446843 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a difference between http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html and Befunge-98? < 1271446844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touche < 1271446853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not IIRC < 1271446858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: that /is/ the Funge-98 specification < 1271446868 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to be safe, you can go with the more official link http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1271446869 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funge-98 == Befunge-98? < 1271446872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It defines Unefunge-98, Befunge-98 and Trefunge-98, with a nod to other-dimensional (and other-topological) analogies. < 1271446879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Befunge-98 is a special case of Funge-98 < 1271446883 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1271446890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, actually, Funge-98 doesn't define the n-dimensional case < 1271446891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one that's generally used < 1271446892 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you can make one with hex-grid if you want to < 1271446896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just n = 1, 2, 3 < 1271446898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no < 1271446902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yep, that's mentioned in the spec < 1271446908 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK < 1271446908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[As mentioned, Funge is a family of programming languages, and Befunge has many relatives and descendants. This document only covers Cartesian Funges. Other Funges, such as Honefunges (hex-net topology) and Kleinefunges (Klein-bottles) are certainly possible.]] < 1271446914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to change the commands a bit though for a hexgrid < 1271446925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[However, Advanced Funges may not find either torodial space or Lahey-space sufficient for complex topologies, so this spec provides a language for defining wrapping behaviour in a mathematical way. < 1271446926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can define an a wrapping function W() along the lines of: < 1271446926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : W(x,y) = (x<0 -> x:=79, x>79 -> x:=0, y<0 -> y:=24, y>24 -> y:=0) < 1271446926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Befunge-93. Complex topologies can define their own wrapping functions. If these functions are strictly and clearly specified in the documentation of the Advanced Funge in question, it will save a lot of confusion to users, and is highly recommended.]] < 1271446929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: perhaps not < 1271446930 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, I would recognise that < 1271446935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topologists can do all sorts of things < 1271446943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they call W a mathematical definition when it assigns variables. < 1271446945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm mostly thinking of <>v^ < 1271446948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eine kleine funge musik < 1271446992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can easily give them definitions < 1271447015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you can't sanely use the official definitions < 1271447018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y could be fun, too < 1271447022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, y is always fun < 1271447036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would y be fun? y just outputs system information, no? < 1271447041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about, fractal board befunge? < 1271447052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilberfunge < 1271447056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I shouldn't allocate a 2^32 by 2^32 array/list/whatever < 1271447072 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's generally not a good idea, no < 1271447076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm; you could have a command to multiply the deltas by infinity < 1271447083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and divide by infinity < 1271447088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sort-of consistent way < 1271447092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, moving between the digits of a base-infinity number < 1271447093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If you can afford it... < 1271447098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would give fractal behaviour < 1271447105 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hence generally < 1271447107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Are you implementing -93? < 1271447112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, then it's 80x24. < 1271447114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: some sort of sparse array is usual for -98 < 1271447119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, then realise that it is a mammoth task. < 1271447120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for -93, it fits in an array just fine < 1271447120 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I want to do -98 < 1271447122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will take thousands of lines. < 1271447127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 25 < 1271447131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And much bothering Deewiant. < 1271447133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Er, yes. < 1271447135 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe I'll make a -93 interp first < 1271447143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. < 1271447149 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a Mycology for -93? < 1271447160 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, that is a idea. Like, you can use a lowercase omega to represent this kind of "infinity"? Maybe < 1271447161 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I maintain that the core can be done in less than a 1000 lines :-P < 1271447162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: Not very often but occasionally I do, but not too rarely either <-- how zzo < 1271447171 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But not in ASCII < 1271447183 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can't remember exactly what time but I do sometimes < 1271447191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could write \omega in ASCII, TeXishly < 1271447208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But not efficiently in any way. < 1271447209 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Mycology has some tests for -93-only interpreters < 1271447213 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But not for ASCII based grid, I meant < 1271447217 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cool < 1271447223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ah < 1271447225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sufficiently efficiently < 1271447232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: use W or something < 1271447233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why should I care about that < 1271447237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just like lowercase omega, only slanty and big < 1271447238 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not looking forward to typing in all of Mycology though. I guess I should figure out how to let my app load it < 1271447239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, it's doable in one line of java < 1271447240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often do you run performance-intensive Befunge? :-P < 1271447240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I just said your line was very zzoish < 1271447254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else < 1271447265 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK. < 1271447266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you only need the -93 mycology set < 1271447266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I managed to spend 625 lines in ff3, and that's just 93. < 1271447270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the rest is exclusively -98 < 1271447272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the -93 test is very small < 1271447273 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still a lot of typing < 1271447277 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, but you're doing it wrong. < 1271447285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That GLfunge thing is bad, right? < 1271447288 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How big is jitfunge at the moment, by the way? < 1271447294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it means I'll see how survivable the keyboard is < 1271447300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, don't speak of it. < 1271447310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, talking to zzo38 has almost all the advantages of talking to a computer, with the bonus of being able to use natural-language English < 1271447311 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Copy-paste? < 1271447313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: you could write \omega in ASCII, TeXishly <-- and emacs could convert that for you < 1271447320 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um? < 1271447324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so could sed; so what < 1271447325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ooh, interesting. < 1271447326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, M-x set-input-method RET TeX RET < 1271447327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't thing "wrong" is quite fair, it works just fine. < 1271447329 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe, actually < 1271447333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is quite different than sed < 1271447338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Please present an algorithm for generating Pythagorean triples. < 1271447344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: this is not #irp! < 1271447352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad bad IRPing < 1271447363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact there are some other useful ones, such as IPA, SGML (or was it called SGML?) and a few more < 1271447372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Fair enough; can't think of a proper adjective though < 1271447376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hey, he's just going to look it up in his algorithmic database. < 1271447380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Database lookups aren't computation! Much! < 1271447390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and a lot of language ones like Chinese and what not < 1271447401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 5351 lines in .cc and .hh files in jitfunge currently. < 1271447406 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the IFs go down if true < 1271447408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so comparing to sed is just useless. :P < 1271447409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop giving me an urge to anthropomorphise SQL so I can get it to taunt you for me < 1271447422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could do it with a specially-prepared sed script, I mean < 1271447431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That explains why it's not working yet ;-) < 1271447440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that do this as you type with completion in the minibuffer? < 1271447463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: meh, it's Emacs, there's probably some way to run buffers repeatedly through an external program < 1271447466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't think sed has quite those IO capabilities < 1271447470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completion might be a little harder though :) < 1271447490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, has anyone tried to make Emacs work like Gobby, I wonder? < 1271447497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, now you gave me an urge to learn more sed and then implement something ncurses-like in it < 1271447512 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the Befunge-93 spec < 1271447513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sed reads input a line at a time < 1271447516 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is v.<>:| @ not a no-op? < 1271447519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's enough to scupper any hope of plausible input < 1271447528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about various sed variants? < 1271447530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it's an infinite loop < 1271447534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with v, which points to itself < 1271447537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest of the program is ignored < 1271447541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, gnu sed has some extensions for example < 1271447551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it includes unbuffered IO though < 1271447553 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why is it in the spec as "This program makes duplicates of each value on the stacked, which is checked, and if non-zero, printed. < 1271447553 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1271447561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably you mispasted it < 1271447580 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like something that should be two or more lines < 1271447581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or removed newlines, or something < 1271447588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what Deewiant said < 1271447603 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I should do, is make a Phlogjournal interface for HTTP/HTML as well, but without the capability to send comments < 1271447615 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's actually like that in the spec itself < 1271447621 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html < 1271447626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: broken example in the spec? < 1271447626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That's an error < 1271447634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably HTML failure < 1271447638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it /is/ in < 1271447650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: why haven't you presented the algorithm yet? < 1271447650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it say in the source? < 1271447653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : isn't
< 1271447654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, it's also in