00:09:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:11:27 -!- nooga has joined. 00:31:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:32:02 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:40:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]). 00:43:08 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 00:45:32 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:47:16 slightly bugfixed B93 Rexx interpreter here (works with OORexx now): http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.rexx/browse_frm/thread/f3184cef1db1c9e9# 00:47:58 -!- fax has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:49:52 * Rugxulo guesses alise finally went to sleep 00:50:39 http://sourceforge.net/projects/oorexx/ 00:51:00 REXX? 00:51:04 What a blast from the ... never. 00:51:31 ooREXX isn't old ;-) 00:51:44 besides, it has x86-64 builds, so nyah :-P 00:51:45 Rugxulo: um alise is only here on weekends, mostly 00:51:53 Yes, in the same way that Object Pascal isn't "old" ... 00:52:21 Object-oriented COBOL is only eight years old. 00:53:12 Object-oriented Brainfuck is very young indeed. 00:53:12 they're all old !! (Lisp, BASIC, Fortran, C, C++) 00:53:27 Can't even be represented in a natural. 00:54:01 ooREXX apparently has .deb, .rpm, Win64, etc. binaries available 00:54:30 pikhq: actually someone has probably made it, it's just one of those gluing stuff to skateboard things 00:54:34 and whatever the heck "rte.bff" means 00:55:12 * oerjan actually uses actually a bit much, perhaps. actually. 00:58:32 I beseech thee to continue. 00:58:59 me or Rugxulo? 00:59:23 Thou, Oerjan, thou. 00:59:24 presumably not me ;-) 00:59:41 ic 01:00:26 it just seems a bit out of place with "actually" when i am wildly guessing that something probably is true 01:00:46 actually. 01:09:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:23:49 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo). 01:31:39 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:32:16 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 01:36:39 -!- Oranjer has joined. 02:31:15 -!- cal153 has quit. 02:31:38 http://lonelydino.com/?id=200 8-D 02:38:03 Gregor: the last original comic link isn't working 02:38:36 oerjan: I'm aware, that happens quite often actually, it's because the mapping isn't bidirectional, so I count on Google to have a smart reverse mapping ... 02:40:23 You could, alternately, write a script to create the appropriate mapping. 02:43:38 Yeah, but then I'd have to keep the mapping up to date, yuck :P 02:43:47 cron job 02:45:36 You shouldn't count on companies like Google 02:46:29 If Google wanted, they could probably take over every aspect of my life 02:50:56 There, it's fixed. 02:50:59 Now stop complaining. 03:05:24 huh, never heard of lonelydino before 03:08:05 It's the Reader's Digest version of Dinosaur Comics :P 03:10:25 Dinosaur Comics has... 1701 comics? 03:10:44 and you have 200? 03:10:53 Yup 03:11:23 and it's less than a year since you started 03:11:39 Yup 03:12:49 Think of it this way: There are 4,921,675,101 possible 3-panel comics. If .001% of these are funny, that's nearly 50,000 comics :P 03:13:18 yeah, 7 years of comics with the exact same pictures... 03:14:15 I wonder if there's ever April Fools :p 03:14:54 http://lonelydino.com/?id=181 03:15:25 :P 03:16:02 they all end with *sob*? 03:16:38 oh no, just those 03:16:46 -!- lament has joined. 03:17:35 some of them are two-panel... 03:19:04 Gregor: 4,921,675,101 possible... And increasing very rapidly! 03:19:20 Yesh! 03:20:32 It'll gain 8,685,307 possibilities tomorrow. 03:20:40 they have to be without the other dinosaurs? 03:20:58 Yes, that's the gimmick. 03:21:01 If they weren't, T-Rex wouldn't be very lonely. 03:21:24 so why does the comic munger have the other 3 panels? 03:22:05 The comic munger was a random thing Gregor made, and Gregor then discovered that T-Rex being lonely was funny. 03:23:08 Couldn't've said it better myself *shrugs* 03:24:04 Ryan North claims he still reads T-Rex is Lonely :P 03:24:52 I'm not that inventie :-/ 03:24:57 *inventive 03:24:58 I read it still. 03:25:21 It's like Garfield Minus Garfield, except less surreal and more funny! 03:25:38 A bit less tragic too :P 03:26:13 (Except when it's not) 03:26:58 hmm, how's this: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=1460,501,291 03:27:49 boring, yes? 03:28:24 A bit. Actually it's too reminiscent of a normal Dinosaur Comic ... one sec, dredging up a news post I made once. 03:29:11 See http://lonelydino.com/?id=17 03:29:19 The Pseudo-News section. 03:31:06 hmm... so mine is the second category? 03:31:57 Nearly, but it doesn't have the sort of "T-Rex fails at everything" conclusion that makes those funny. 03:32:17 oh 03:32:25 maybe I should read the original? :p 03:32:54 Yes, Dinosaur Comics is amazing. 03:33:18 it's just a bit too large 03:33:19 It's awesomesauce. 03:33:24 It takes a commitment :P 03:33:50 -!- lament has quit (Quit: lament). 03:36:41 hmm... better or worse than my first: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=1043,1155,18&strip 03:37:28 maybe taking out the middle panel would work :p 03:37:42 http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,5&comics=1043,18&strip 03:38:03 Hahaha, yes. 03:38:18 Reminds me of http://lonelydino.com/?id=58 03:38:46 yay :-) 03:40:05 why is alt text of that "Khaaaaan!"? 03:40:27 Bizarre reference to http://lonelydino.com/?id=7 03:40:56 (Also, to be confusing) 03:40:59 Also a non-bizarre reference to a certain Star Trek film. 03:41:10 "Wrath of Khan: it was actually good." 03:41:10 :P 03:43:51 oh, I actually remember seeing that 03:44:13 at least, at the end where the coffin hits the planet 03:46:28 maybe I should sit down and watch the series sometime, so it actually makes sense :p 03:54:27 http://1pd.org/play/4479_exploit.aspx 04:01:28 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 04:02:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:10:15 Mathnerd314: TOS had good moments, TNG is quite good after the first two seasons, DS9 was quite good, and after that is a decade of shit. 04:15:07 * Sgeo_ wonders if that Exploit game is TC 04:18:42 TC? 04:18:54 oh, turing-complete 04:30:00 I wonder how much of it is true ;-) 04:30:16 keyboard shortcuts would be way cool 04:40:42 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:55:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:56:06 -!- augur has joined. 05:00:17 wtf 05:01:39 norway and russia have agreed on the border line 05:02:03 it only took 40 years... 05:02:21 *sea border 05:28:14 -!- sshc has joined. 05:30:22 -!- fivetwentysix has joined. 05:32:07 Hah. 05:32:17 ? 05:32:33 Maybe soon the RoC and the PRoC can agree on each other's existence. 05:35:08 seems unlikely 05:35:33 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:35:37 -!- sshc has joined. 05:35:43 just as unlikely that Canada and the US settle their maritime border disputes 05:36:05 Ah, right, they actually do dispute that. 05:36:06 pikhq: it seems the chinese take a little more time to conclude, as a quote in the same newspaper article mentioned 05:36:27 http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zhou_Enlai 05:36:45 I note that the RoC doesn't recognise any border changes since 1945... 05:37:09 Crazy. 05:37:28 -!- fivetwentysix has left (?). 05:42:42 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:42:47 -!- sshc has joined. 05:47:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:48:13 -!- coppro has joined. 06:09:38 http://www.fantasysupplies.co.uk/Arm-Dildo-938.html 06:36:58 * Mathnerd314 is too tired to care about anything 06:37:00 Looks ... awkward. Not sure why that's a good position in terms of control. 06:37:24 wow - within 5 seconds! 06:37:45 I wait for somebody else to be typing before I ever type. 06:38:04 augur: I guess if you had one strapped to both biceps, it would look pretty cool slash creepy ... slash slash :P 06:38:26 Like Edward Penishands. 06:38:51 * Mathnerd314 googles 06:38:56 I ported gnuplot to my eInk reader. Plots on eInk = friggin' amazing. 06:39:40 Mathnerd314: you probably want to make that "scissorhands" 06:39:47 Gregor: which reader? 06:39:53 coppro: iRex DR800SG 06:40:05 what's the processor? 06:40:08 oerjan: No, the porn I references was actually "penishands". Real thing. 06:40:18 pikhq: O_O 06:40:30 coppro: "400MHz Freescale i.MX31L" 06:40:37 oerjan: And no, it's not any good. 06:40:37 never heard of it! 06:40:38 i suppose i _shouldn't_ be surprised :D 06:40:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:40:52 Something Awful had a hilarious review though. 06:40:53 coppro: It's the world's most hackable eInk reader :) 06:41:16 coppro: GPL SDK, runs X11 + GTK+, porting stuff to it is so easy it's fun. 06:41:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:41:45 Gregor: In other words, it has a GCC backend? :P 06:42:06 coppro: And UNIX! 06:42:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 06:42:27 Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. 06:42:34 that's true 06:43:06 Gregor: I'd imagine the Catholics would dislike an actual "we own your sperm" license. 06:43:20 After all, every sperm is sacred. 06:43:39 pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws. 06:44:12 how do I operate the quote bot? 06:44:26 With your FISTS 06:44:31 Use `quote to search, `addquote to add 06:45:05 `addquote Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws. 06:45:09 155| Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing 06:45:13 :( 06:45:15 boo 06:45:39 Heh, output length restriction :P 06:46:01 Because realloc is hard. 06:46:16 No, because not making FreeNode kick you off is hard. 06:46:35 Remember, I use buffer.h, realloc is trivially simple :P 06:46:42 that's not an output length restriction 06:46:45 Uh, the output length restriction is part of the IRC protocol. 06:46:47 at least, not from the network 06:46:56 (and, as pikhq says, the protocol) 06:47:06 Yes, but that's a shorter restriction than the IRC limit. 06:47:11 that length restriction is internal to HackEgo 06:47:14 pikhq: The problem is that the restriction is on the whole line, but my stuff is modularized in such a way that I can't easily restrict it there, so I have to restrict it conservatively. 06:47:15 Ah. 06:47:39 and I guess you can't assume a 9-character limit to the nickname either 06:47:57 Mathnerd314 says I can't. 06:48:08 And on the other network it's on, I'm not sure if they have any limit at all :P 06:49:26 ##this-channel-name-is-so-veryv-very-long-good-luck-getting-a-word-in-edgewise-really-really-i-dare-you-youll-find-it-pretty-tough-to-do-so-try-it-youll-fail-just-watch-theres-no-way-around-it-sucker-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah (and so on until you reach the actual limit) 06:49:57 The IRC line length limit is... Pretty silly. 06:50:08 sensible when fixed-length buffers were the norm 06:50:11 Usually the nick length limit is told to the client at connection-time; freenode says, for example, "NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390". 06:50:22 coppro: Yes, when gets was in use... 06:50:22 fizzie: per the spec, it's officially 9 06:51:51 anyways, I have standardized tests tomorrow 06:51:58 bye 06:52:22 I have what is nearly the most important assignment of the year due tomorrow :/ 06:52:31 and it aten't done 06:52:38 and I'm tired 06:52:44 :( 07:00:18 coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJECLN4S00 07:00:46 huh 07:00:54 is that ur fave song 07:01:31 -!- tombom has joined. 07:01:31 no 07:01:37 that involves someone else talking 07:01:41 not me 07:07:35 And on the other network it's on, I'm not sure if they have any limit at all :P <-- 31 tends to be common 07:08:14 fizzie: per the spec, it's officially 9 <-- sure, but no one follows the spec 07:08:30 EFNet does 07:08:47 coppro, okay, but apart from them and possibly ircnet: no one does 07:25:16 IRCnet is also, I think, rather spec-adherent, yes. 07:25:47 The newer set of RFCs do say that: "While the maximum length is limited to nine characters, clients SHOULD accept longer strings as they may become used in future evolutions of the protocol." I guess everyone else has just decided to do "future evolutions" by themselves. 07:26:43 The IRC RFCs are typically taken as mere suggestions, anyways. 07:27:22 yeah 07:27:31 the CTCP colour spec is never used, for instance 07:30:54 fizzie, everyone but ircnet completely ignored the newer version 07:30:58 for example 07:31:06 that line with "NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390" in it 07:31:09 is not in any spec 07:31:13 Sure is. 07:31:21 In an expired internet-draft, that is. 07:31:24 fizzie, no? isn't that the 005 07:31:33 which is used for more than one thing 07:31:35 XD 07:31:46 fizzie, heh? really? 07:31:52 An expired draft is still pretty speccy enough! 07:31:56 See http://www.irc.org/tech_docs/draft-brocklesby-irc-isupport-03.txt 07:32:13 mhm 07:33:32 I'm having the AI competition "debriefing" / prize-giving / whatever session in half an hour; don't have much to say, should have prepared even more colorful graphics for it instead. 07:33:47 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:34:28 fizzie, who won? 07:34:56 One two-person group took both the first and second places (they're allowed to submit two bots). 07:35:19 They submitted the same thing with slight tweaks in the computation-time management logic. 07:35:36 Which is, I guess, reasonable; there's two of them, now they'll get two prizes. 07:41:57 AnMaster: If you have nothing better to do, here's some slides with statistics on the tournament in Finnish on them; you can read it for the pictures. :p http://zem.fi/~fis/htloppu10.pdf 07:48:30 -!- olsner has joined. 07:48:47 fizzie, I do have something more important to do (sadly) 07:50:14 Well, the slides won't go anywhere. 07:50:40 I should probably go set up the laptop there, and see if the projector is again somehow borken; that classroom tends to have Issues(tm). 07:50:54 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:14 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:04:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!). 08:16:35 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:20:29 are any of your esofags also metalfags? 08:25:45 there's metal in the buckling springs of my keyboard, they make sounds... does this mean I listen to metal? 08:26:51 :p 08:26:55 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/dmnm.pdf 08:28:12 grr, this pdf viewer always makes its window about 1.25x the size of my screen 08:31:57 oh, that was too long for my attention span 08:32:03 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 08:35:36 oerjan: Ping 08:38:00 -!- yiyus has joined. 08:53:41 people write about music in a really stupid way 08:54:22 if you write an article related to music and you don't need to mention any specific melody, you're not actually saying anything 08:54:59 and don't try to disagree, this is how i define not actually saying anything 08:57:02 oerjan: it would be a lot nicer if you came NOW, and didn't wait for me to leave first 08:57:24 i have just one line to say, so i could just say it now, but that would be stupid 09:05:45 We should have that message-passing bot. 09:06:02 Then you could say it now, and it'd be repeated when oerjan says pong, and it'd be somehow much less stupid. 09:06:10 Magically. 09:10:25 -!- lereah_ has joined. 09:19:23 -!- Axtens has joined. 09:20:33 yes true 09:24:12 are any of your esofags also metalfags? <-- Do you smoke metalfags using a blowtorch? ;P 09:24:29 AnMaster: yes, obviously 09:24:52 augur, well, I don't smoke. I guess that is why I didn't know that. 09:24:52 AnMaster: Heh, there was a total of two (2) out of fourty-four (44) participants present at the prize-giving occasion. 09:25:07 fizzie, those two being the winners? 09:25:20 AnMaster: Right, but places #3 and #4 would've gotten prizes too, had they been there. 09:25:30 fizzie, did it say so somewhere? 09:25:49 fizzie, I mean, maybe they missed that 3 and 4 got prices too? 09:26:13 perhaps you should email them and tell them what they missed out on 09:26:24 fizzie, btw what did the various prices consist of? 09:27:12 AnMaster: Well, it's not exactly written down anywhere, because the exact number that get prizes depends on how many prizes the guest lecturer / Hierarchy designer happens to bring; but I've said to them that "3-5 best" get rewards, informally. 09:28:01 Anyway, obviously you should come there not because of the prizes but because you want to participate in lively discussion about the course-project. 09:28:12 And colorful graphs. 09:28:55 I even had a video, though I forgot to show it; it would've been a spectacularly boring 12 seconds, anyhow. 09:32:18 fizzie: could've been worse 09:32:20 in fact 09:32:23 could've been TWO worse 09:32:38 Twice as worse. 09:32:42 yeap 09:40:06 hm 09:40:21 fizzie, so what did the prices consist of? You didn't answer that 09:41:05 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:41:25 oerjan: the thing i wanted to tell you was just that i was really disappointed by how "groups are categories", you just use the morphism composition as monoid multiplication... i thought it'd be something cool like identifying groups by what their automorphisms always look like or something 09:41:47 it's quite important i'm sure you'll find 09:42:06 something that's not obvious 09:43:12 We should have that message-passing bot. <-- memoserv? 09:46:58 -!- Axtens has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:50:03 AnMaster: Oh, right. There was some chocolate, and some bottles; it's one of the most non-dry Finnish celebrations soon -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night#Finland -- and it's a particularly student-oriented one. Nothing extravagant, anyhow. 09:51:29 I'm not sure memoserv is quite as convenient; and it's so off-channel. I was thinking more like #scheme's bot, which would wait until the message recipient said something publicly, and then repost the message on channel. 09:54:55 ah 10:18:39 fizzie: are you going to party hard? 10:19:17 is vappu the one where there are balloons if you're a kid 10:19:56 Re balloons; yes, I think so. 10:20:04 We're just going to stay at home and not go outside. 10:20:24 we're doing even better and visiting her parents 10:20:34 they live nowhere 10:20:49 vihti 10:21:02 Though I did consider a balloon; the cat we had when I was young(er) was most interested in them, perhaps the current one might be too. 10:21:25 You can tie some sort of a cat toy in the balloon string; insta-amusement without having to do anything. 10:21:29 well that's some long lasting fun for your cat there. 10:21:42 I just received a book on an esoteric language :) 10:21:48 I guess there's the claw-and-balloon problem, though. 10:21:52 which one? 10:21:54 Their perspectives are pretty neat 10:22:16 oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/6EYM3.jpg highly recommended so far 10:22:33 yummy 10:22:48 i once read half a book about cobol 10:22:49 i think 10:22:53 i don't remember anything 10:22:57 i was like 6 10:23:12 emphasis on the like 10:23:54 I have a friend who I think was somewhat cobol-skilled, but personally don't know anything about it. I don't think it's consensually considered an esolang, though? More like semi-obsolent and businessy. 10:24:08 oh "walpurgis night" == valborgsmässoafton? 10:24:09 right 10:24:12 that is big here too 10:24:37 bonfires are traditional 10:25:06 We don't do bonfires except at midsummer. 10:25:24 at midsummer? How strange ;P 10:25:43 From the Wikipedia article I got the impression that the tone is a bit different for this one in Finland and Sweden. 10:25:53 The main article image for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer is a Finnish bonfire, in fact. 10:26:27 I think midsummer bonfires are not a Finnish-only thing, though. 10:26:51 for midsummer in Sweden, maypoles are traditional. 10:27:30 it isn't called maypole in Sweden though (that would be the wrong month!) 10:27:44 it is called "midsommarstång" which mean "midsummer pole" 10:28:50 The subsections for Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Norway, Portugal, Russia and Ukraine and Spain mention the word "bonfire" in them. 10:29:06 The Sweden bit does note that in "Sweden and parts of Finland the tradition of bonfires are not part of midsummer but of the "Valborg's" evening festivities when winter leaves for summer." 10:29:21 quite 10:29:49 I'm not sure which parts of Finland those are; not the eastern ones, I think. 10:36:01 Incidentally, I also picked up a rather interesting book from the "getting-rid-of" bin of the local library; it is a guide for translating (not porting, not understanding, just translating according to a rigid set of rules) FORTRAN-II and FORTRAN-IV programs to ALGOL-60 and back. There's large tables of hardware specs for different 1960s-era computers (most of which I've never heard of) and all other sorts of curious miscellania. 10:46:20 fizzie, probably some of the Swedish speaking parts 10:46:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:47:09 bbl 10:57:38 -!- hiato has joined. 11:01:34 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 11:04:36 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:15:30 -!- cheater3 has joined. 11:19:57 -!- pineappl1 has joined. 11:24:35 -!- cheater2 has quit (*.net *.split). 11:24:35 -!- pineapple has quit (*.net *.split). 11:24:35 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 11:40:21 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:40:21 -!- clog has quit (ended). 11:40:25 -!- clog has joined. 11:40:25 -!- clog has joined. 11:45:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:46:32 Why the hell did Apple think that it was a good idea to make the hash key alt-3? 11:49:13 -!- hiato has joined. 11:55:08 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:09:33 -!- cheater2 has joined. 12:56:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:01:26 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:17:53 -!- adam_d has joined. 13:24:55 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:10:25 -!- Axtens has joined. 14:12:55 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 14:14:31 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 15:17:38 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:19:53 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 15:20:19 -!- hiato has joined. 15:23:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:28:44 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:29:37 oklopol: pong 15:31:55 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:38:05 Why the hell did Apple think that it was a good idea to make the hash key alt-3? 15:38:15 well it's shift-3 here 15:38:23 (norwegian keyboard) 15:38:51 so how about the same thing for rings, is it a cheat 15:39:19 i'm not sure my ping and the rest of my thing was in the same place, if not keep reading 15:39:31 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 15:39:32 rings as categories? i think that's a bit harder... _however_: 15:40:26 if you are already in the category of abelian groups, then the single-object subcategories are of course endomorphism rings 15:40:55 although you might need more than that single object to extract the ring operations 15:41:01 category theory books tend to go pretty fast from exact proofs to "look at this commutative diagram here and you'll see" a bit too quickly for me 15:41:45 (addition that is. there's a way of extracting it using categorical products and/or coproducts) 15:42:12 i see 15:42:23 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:42:42 or maybe it was limits/colimits 15:42:57 well i don't really know any of those thing yet 15:42:59 *things 15:43:08 ok 15:43:13 well i suppose i do know products to some extent 15:43:51 which of course means i know coproducts! 15:44:12 the duality of understanding 15:44:17 well they're almost the same thing in abelian categories (such as the category of abelian groups) 15:44:34 what are abelian categories? 15:44:38 (since sum of two abelians groups is isomorphic to their product) 15:45:04 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 15:45:10 that any two morphisms A -> A commute? 15:45:22 i don't recall exactly, but _basically_ i think those are the categories where you can do that trick to define group operations on the morphisms A -> B 15:45:50 emm umm okay 15:46:41 so basically they _look_ like the objects are abelian groups and the morphisms are group homomorphisms, as far as category theory can detect. iirc. 15:46:58 okay that makes sense 15:47:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:47:13 doesn't really tell me anything tho 15:47:14 -!- Axtens has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:47:35 there may be some other things, like products and stuff should exist (which you need to do that trick anyway) 15:47:51 maybe i should check wikipedia that i'm not completely bullshitting 15:50:31 ok not _too_ far from the truth 15:53:27 what i said may be somewhat closer to an _additive_ category, which has only _some_ of the properties of an abelian category 15:53:29 :) 15:53:36 okay 15:54:26 i should probably go read some topology 15:54:31 basically (1) in a _preadditive_ category, morphisms form abelian groups, but not necessarily in a way you can extract from the category 15:55:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:55:16 in an _additive_ category, you have enough structure (biproducts, it seems) that you can get the addition out from just category properties 15:55:39 ooh, category theory 15:56:05 "morphisms form abelian groups" 15:56:10 in what way exactly? 15:56:11 an abelian category though, also has some other ways of combining objects categorically 15:56:39 so you can do more of that diagram chasing stuff etc. 15:57:32 oklopol: well for a preadditive category, i think you just have the addition as extra structure, Hom(A,B) comes with it for every object A and object B 15:57:57 oh. 15:58:03 well i guess that's neat 15:58:19 for an additive category however, you don't need to include anything extra, it's uniquely definable using the biproduct thing 15:58:31 wanna elaborate on biproduct?, or is it in parens so you don't have to 15:58:36 *? 15:58:54 hahaha, SCO have just submitted a motion to rule that the jury judged SCO vs. Novell incorrectly 15:58:59 that's... pretty amazing 15:59:59 The jury verdict in this case is the type for which Rule 50(b) and Rule 59 exist. The jury simply got it wrong: The verdict cannot be reconciled with the overwhelming evidence or the Court's clear instructions regarding the controlling law. 16:00:32 ais523: I fail to believe there issuch a law/avenue for motion 16:00:35 ais523: what was it that you you had a permutation proof for exactly, group theory related 16:00:39 *-you 16:00:43 it was ages ago 16:00:47 oklopol: Fermat's Little Theorem, probably 16:00:53 oklopol: it seems to be a product that is also a coproduct of the same objects. for abelian groups products and coproducts coincide, so it's a natural property there 16:00:54 hmm ah right 16:01:05 (finite ones that is) 16:01:23 hiato: this is SCO we're talking about; they're likely to try more or less anything 16:01:40 rule 50 says that if there's no evidence/legal arguments to favour one side of a court case at all, it can be thrown out without going to the jury 16:01:45 and SCO are trying to invoke it retroactively, it seems 16:02:49 oklopol: the definition seems to also require a zero object in the category, so that some morphisms combine to zero 16:03:27 ais523: Well, if that doesn't scream 'this legal sytem is a farce, then nothing will. Surely you cannot overturn a judgement made within the law based on, what seemes to be a lack of solid evidence one way or anothr combined with the fundemetal tennant of "innocent until proven guilty", or can you? 16:03:48 s/ce,/ce',/ 16:03:51 hiato: SCO only submitted the motion, that doesn't mean that the judge has to pay it any attention 16:03:51 anyway other fun theorem that follows from almost the same thing, x^p = 1 in any group has kp solutions, k>1; consider equivalence classes by conjugacy on the set S = {(x_1, ..., x_p) | x_i \in G, \product x_i = 1}, clearly (1, ..., 1) \in S, so there must be kp, k>1 different (x, ..., x) style tuples in S (because all conjugates of S's elements are in S) 16:03:52 (say when you have a morphism that sends something only to the A part of A x B, combined with a morphism that projects down to the B part) 16:04:05 err 16:04:06 but yes, the case has been a farce for almost a decade now 16:04:11 conjugacy being xy -> yx 16:04:34 ais523: but we all know it will drag on for another five years like this, if they can keep cheating 16:04:58 hiato: yes 16:05:22 err, that is 16:05:56 |G| has to be divisible by p 16:06:18 gah i should've thought this through before saying it, i read the proof like 4 weeks ago :P 16:07:42 point is, for every p-1 first elements in a tuple we have exactly one way to finish the tuple to get the product to be 1, so we have |G|^(p-1) tuples in S, so p | |S|, NOW if you take equivalence classes by conjugacy, you see the amount of (x, ..., x) tuples has to be divisible by p, because every eq class has either 1 (x, ..., x) element, or then p elements, because p is prime 16:08:12 and xy = 1 ==> yx = 1, ofc 16:08:49 so the amt is kp, k>1 because at least (1, ..., 1) is there 16:11:13 oerjan: i'm not sure i'm capable of doing this stuff without being completely formal, yet, the cat stuff that is 16:11:42 or maybe it's just because i don't remember products that well 16:11:51 or understand 16:11:53 or love 16:12:07 * hiato :) 16:12:58 oklopol: hey i'm not doing it either, just describing the buzzwords :) 16:13:08 sometimes you form a product category, but sometimes you find an object C you call the product of A and B in the *same* category as A and B, if it has the cool splitting property that morphisms to A and B can be combined into 16:13:10 to do it requires pen and paper 16:13:22 this confused me for quite a while when reading about them 16:13:58 oklopol: i would assume a product category is a product of two objects in the category Cat 16:14:17 well right, i guess that's why reading math books is so hard for me, i clarify every detail to myself, but i never use paper 16:14:38 hmm yes i suppose it is 16:14:46 assuming, since i don't recall what a product category actually is 16:16:00 but it's probably a natural enough thing (natural being also a technical term, naturally :D) 16:17:03 if C category, and A, B \in C, then (AxB (\in C), outl (also in C), outr) is the product of A and B iff for every pair of morphisms f1 : D -> A, f2 : D -> B there's a unique morphism g : D -> AxB such that outl . g = f1, outr . g = f2 16:17:04