00:16:44 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:20:53 http://www.irextechnologies.com/irexdr800 Opinions? (Note also that it runs Linux and has a vendor-supported jailbreak) 00:23:32 isn't that a lot more expensive than iPad? and I didn't see any direct mentions of Linux 00:23:59 -!- charlls has joined. 00:24:09 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/earth-environment/article7100906.ece 00:24:12 im sorry, europeans. :( 00:24:16 im so sorry 00:24:36 I wouldn't use the iPad if it was free. Also, that's $100 less than the iPad. Also it has an eInk screen (though a smaller one). Also, they don't tend to mention the developer details on the general product page, but the forums, developer page, etc etc are quite explicit. 00:24:48 Rugxulo: ^^^ 00:25:08 well katla hasn't erupted _yet_ 00:25:36 (although there was a fake report that hekla (another volcano) had done so 00:25:37 ) 00:25:58 hekla = largest volcano on iceland 00:28:09 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:09 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:12 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:28:16 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:28:56 "I wouldn't use the iPad if it was free" ... I know, they treat developers like crap 00:28:57 but the "shop" part of the iRex showed $895, so I just assumed that's the one you meant :-/ 00:29:29 (apparently someone was looking at a webcam of hekla or something like that, and seeing smoke - but they didn't notice that the smoke was in the background, from the current volcano eruption :D) 00:29:35 Rugxulo: No, that's the enormous 10.2" one. 00:30:00 Rugxulo: The 8.7" one is $400 from Best Buy (plus shipping) 00:30:35 My phone's going to be more expensive than the iPad :/ 00:31:09 Sgeo: Smaller = more expensive 00:31:12 augur: anyway some of the ashes are currently at newfoundland, i read 00:31:30 oerjan: man if they come to the US we might have to shut down shit here too 00:31:38 this will /definitely/ be interesting 00:32:19 however there are reports that the volcano is changing behavior from sending out ash to sending out lava, so it may be better at least for a while 00:33:33 im secretly hoping that it continutes to get worse. grounding air travel wouldnt be all that bad 00:33:40 maybe itll force america to build more trains. 00:34:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]). 00:34:14 augur: the main worry in norway is all the ambulance helicopters 00:34:24 http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=11432 00:34:30 ambulance helicopters :( 00:34:43 they were grounded too 00:35:00 -!- charlesq__ has joined. 00:35:05 i figured 00:35:11 that sucks 00:35:18 upsides and downsides 00:35:26 the world is a giant reddit 00:35:48 however norway cleared up today, anyway, although they expect a new cloud of ash tomorrow 00:36:22 -!- charlls has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:36:25 we were hit first, but also cleared up first, it seems 00:36:37 but it all depends on wind direction, anyhow 00:37:08 would be a good name for an esolang ... Ejafjojfakjasfjkul 00:37:42 we do have Itflabtijtslwi 00:38:01 and eodermdrome can _look_ like that, i think 00:39:13 !bf_txtgen Eyjafjallajökull 00:39:16 182 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.---------------.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.>.---------.<++++++..>.+++++++++.>++++.<+.++++++++++.<..>>>-. [691] 00:39:42 BUT DOES IT WORK? 00:39:54 !bf_txtgen Eyjafjallajoekull 00:39:56 169 ++++++++++[>++++++++++++>+++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>-.<+.---------------.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++.++++.<.<++..>.+++++++++.<+++.----------.>+.++++++++++.>++..>. [173] 00:39:56 BUT WHO WAS VOLCANO 00:40:00 8D 00:40:10 slereah got banned from another channel lol 00:42:51 !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.---------------.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.>.---------.<++++++..>.+++++++++.>++++.<+.++++++++++.<..>>>-. 00:42:57 Eyjafjallajökull 00:43:16 dare I ask, but what's with the "[173]" ? 00:43:48 length is 170, apparently 00:44:00 Generations used to evolve that solution. 00:46:43 bfd output size -> 178, 187 bytes (respectively) 00:47:10 although I do wonder how it encodes "o:" 00:47:31 !bf_textgen o: 00:47:43 !bf_txtgen o: 00:47:46 49 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++>+>+<<<<-]>+.>--.>. [177] 00:47:52 Yeah, that. 00:47:59 I meant what character encoding does it use 00:48:06 Oh, that. 00:48:08 UTF-8. 00:48:24 * Rugxulo didn't know Brainf*** was UTF-8 aware ;-) 00:48:27 pikhq: http://www.irextechnologies.com/irexdr800 Opinions? (Note also that it runs Linux and has a vendor-supported jailbreak) 00:48:33 Rugxulo: Doesn't have to be. 00:48:49 but how can you output Unicode in a non-Unicode implementation? you can't! 00:48:52 Rugxulo: It has to be UTF-8 not-breaking is all. 00:48:58 Rugxulo: What a silly thing to say. 00:49:11 And that's quite ignorant. 00:49:19 how so? 00:49:31 In every way. 00:49:41 A UTF-8 string is a string of 8-bit units. 00:49:51 1 or more of those units makes a UTF-8 character. 00:49:51 bfd compiler creates volcano.com, which uses 0xF6 for "o:", which I don't think is proper UTF-8 00:50:14 at least, it doesn't look correctly here (no big surprise, DOS app) 00:50:25 Rugxulo: That's because DOS isn't UTF-8-capable. 00:50:33 Programs unaware of UTF-8 will simply treat each unit as an 8-bit character instead. 00:50:33 I know, that's what I meant! 00:50:44 And if they don't do any splitting, it "just works". 00:51:01 it looks like a division symbol here, which is wrong 00:51:06 (that is, it outputs a UTF-8 string without having a clue) 00:51:31 Rugxulo: Yes, that's because DOS is interpreting the UTF-8 string as using characters from the codepage instead. 00:51:41 all I meant was that it is ignorant of code pages, so it's pretty random what it chooses for that 00:52:08 This is because DOS knows nothing about UTF-8 so it can't do UTF-8. 00:52:20 Instead, it tries something else. 00:52:27 nor does Brainf***, only particular implementations 00:52:28 In this case, displaying the glyph for 0xF6. 00:52:33 ARGH 00:52:40 nor does Brainf***, only particular implementations // NO NO NO 00:53:02 "treats as raw data" isn't the same as "fully supports" 00:53:12 It is for Brainfuck. 00:53:26 Brainfuck treats everything as raw data. 00:53:29 Brainfuck has no characters, only bytes. 00:53:39 That happens to be in 8-bit units called "bytes". 00:53:45 (Usually :P ) 00:53:56 (some implementations make this 16-bit, 32-bit, etc. units instead) 00:55:17 U+00F6öc3 b6LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS 00:55:40 Okay. So? 00:55:42 so 0xF6 came from UTF-16 from my Windows XP (since I cut and pasted via clipboard), I guess 00:55:54 UTF-16 00:55:56 Good lawd 00:55:58 So much lame. 00:56:08 UTF-16 is such a *retarded* character encoding. 00:56:32 About as much of a pain as UTF-8, except without being compatible with anything. 00:56:57 In other languages that do not have the letter as part of the regular alphabet or in limited character sets such as ASCII, O-umlaut is frequently replaced with the two-letter combination "oe". 00:57:14 my only guess as to why they chose UTF-16 is speed 00:57:38 Except it's no faster than UTF-8 if actually handled correctly. 00:58:01 (note: UTF-16 requires 2 16-bit units to encode some Unicode characters) 00:58:23 cp437 represents "o:" as 0x94 (148) 00:58:33 so there :-P ;-) 00:58:53 You are aware that o followed by colon is not the same as ö, right? 00:58:56 I know, UTF-16 can be wasteful, but so can UTF-8, depends on language most heavily used 00:59:09 sorry, I'm only using that because I'm not setup to enter 8-bit chars here 00:59:12 Big. Deal. WE HAVE COMPRESSION. 00:59:18 * Rugxulo is American, typically doesn't do 8-bit ... 00:59:34 pikhq, I'm not defending them, I'm just saying ... 00:59:35 ö is not an 8-bit character. 00:59:44 typically cannot even pronounce a simple 8-bit word like eyjafjallajökull 00:59:46 it is in cp437 ;-) 00:59:48 It is U+00F6, which in UTF-8 is encoded using 2 bytes. 00:59:50 oerjan: lol 00:59:54 * oerjan whistles innocently 01:00:14 In other encodings, it may be 8-bit. In still others, it's 32-bit. 01:00:33 you know what I mean, it's not 7-bit ASCII 01:00:35 In UTF-64 (UCS-8) it's 64-bit. 01:00:38 And Huffman encoded, it may well end up as one bit. :P 01:02:04 dumb question, but is the "oe" in "oerjan" short for U+00F6 ?? 01:02:12 No. 01:02:17 Ø 01:02:38 Wrong Germanic language. :) 01:02:47 if i were swedish, it would be, but i'm norwegian 01:03:29 cp850 = 0x9D (157) 01:04:02 um, isn't Norwey related to Sweden somewhat? ;-) 01:04:10 s/wey/way/ 01:04:25 next door neighbors 01:04:37 more than just neighbors, though, cousins right?? 01:05:09 we're both descended from vikings 01:06:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kiel 01:06:34 Accordingly, on November 4, 1814, Norway was forced into entering the union with Sweden. 01:06:35 and if you insist, the swedes were our evil oppressors from 1814 - 1905 (ok, not _that_ evil) 01:06:37 (sounds messy) 01:07:40 we actually had great autonomy in most matters, with our own constitution and parliament 01:09:29 so much so that our national day is the day of our 1814 constitution rather than our 1905 independence 01:11:14 oerjan: yeah but you europeans are so waifish anyway 01:11:37 the netherlands' national anthem still has it swearing allegiance to spain! 01:11:52 wow :D 01:12:42 I read that a lot of Icelanders are migrating to Norway (economic, mostly, but now I'm sure the stupid volcano doesn't help) 01:12:43 you could say the constitution was the crowbar we used to eventually get independence, and remarkably peacefully 01:13:08 they cannot emigrate to norway if they cannot fly here, silly 01:13:24 well i guess they could bring their fishing boats 01:14:07 (and yeah i've read that too) 01:20:59 "Eyjafjallajökull" (according to Wikipedia's OGG) sounds like "ehvya leyv kvik" (where's the "ull" ??) 01:21:30 s/leyv/leyvov/ 01:23:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2 ... much easier to pronounce :-P 01:29:14 -!- charlesq__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:30:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:30:45 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: food). 01:36:10 -!- cheater2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:36:11 -!- cheater3 has joined. 01:51:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:52:44 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:08:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:09:45 Mathnerd314: 314 is too obvious, you should go with 271 (272?) or 161 (162?), maybe 141. 02:10:04 The ?s being on whether you truncate or round. 02:12:13 1729 02:12:24 8675309. 02:12:30 I need to use that as a magic number some day. 02:12:33 pikhq: Boo hiss. 02:12:47 Gregor: it's intended to be obvious 02:12:59 Mathnerd314: Exactly the problem :P 02:13:03 Gregor: If it makes you feel better, I know of that only by force of meme. 02:13:18 pikhq: Everyone knows of that one only by force of meme. 02:13:19 pikhq: that's not math nerdy 02:13:25 oerjan: True. 02:13:32 Just memey. 02:13:39 Hence my "boo hiss" :P 02:13:42 Gregor: No, *people actually have heard the song and enjoyed it*. 02:14:00 Define "people" 02:14:37 "Collective noun for members of homo sapiens. Sometimes broadened to be inclusive of other sapient beings." 02:15:04 So Homo sapiens dumbassus still counts then. 02:15:28 Yes, Homo sapiens stultus still counts. 02:16:00 Your usage varies from mine :P 02:16:38 small furry creatures from alpha centauri 02:26:58 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:35:33 -!- augur has joined. 03:03:53 -!- coppro has joined. 03:25:56 -!- MizardX has quit (Quit: brb). 03:30:00 -!- MizardX has joined. 03:40:17 Neat. Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland have, like, the same flag. 03:40:43 Scandinavia's like that. 03:40:51 Yeah, I know I put them in the wrong order. 03:41:10 I don't remember whether Norway or Sweden goes first, nor whether Finland or Iceland goes last. 03:41:35 I was unaware that Country was an instance of Enum. 03:41:51 norway goes first, of course. sheesh. 03:41:58 Of course. 03:42:12 So Norway, Sweden, Denmark... 03:43:11 as for chronology, denmark's flag is the oldest country flag in the world iirc 03:43:54 Oldest in continuous use, or oldest period? 03:43:56 Mmkay, Finland definitely goes before Iceland. 03:44:23 Gregor: um... i thought oldest period 03:45:06 And God Save the Queen is the oldest national anthem. 03:45:50 oerjan, it looks like you're wrong. Sweden comes before Norway. 03:46:02 * oerjan swats uorygl -----### 03:46:17 Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland. 03:46:20 CLEARLY A MISPRINT YOU'VE FOUND 03:46:47 Well, it's not like the earlier countries are better or anything. 03:47:32 actually i didn't know there was a fixed order. and that one is definitely not chronological by independence. 03:49:02 not by original founding either, i'm pretty sure norway was unified before sweden 03:49:03 Hmm, maybe Norway comes first after all. 03:49:44 and i think denmark may have been first 03:50:38 actually it's just a big mess trying to order them 03:51:13 It's a very small mess; you just have to figure out whether it's Sweden and then Norway or the other way around. 03:52:08 If only there were some NULL country we could compare them to. 03:52:27 Kenya, perhaps 03:52:57 hm, Tanzania 03:53:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge 04:05:03 * Sgeo grumbles at Normish not having Java 04:05:28 * Sgeo wanted to run an HTTP-IRC proxy on there so he could connect to IRC from his crap RAZR 04:11:47 How's about the Sovereign Military Order of Malta? 04:11:59 Which has the notable property of being a sovereign non-nation. 04:13:24 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:40:29 What's it sovereign over? 04:41:32 -!- adu has joined. 04:45:21 Itself. 04:45:38 Oh, and yes: it has international recognition. 04:45:58 Some 50 countries have embassies with it, and it is a permanent observer in the UN. 05:08:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:09:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:09:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 05:16:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:18:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:00:14 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:12:45 AnMaster signed on at 4/8/2010 11:14:50 PM, and has been idle 7 hours, 48 minutes and 10 seconds 06:13:01 clearly a small timezone difference (as it just turned 12am here) ;-) 06:20:11 "Atari 2600 Air Raid auction that ended for $31,600" 06:20:15 o_O 06:20:26 "The auction resulted in 52 valid bids, and in auction's final seconds bidding jumped from $17,528.28 to its final price of $31,600." 06:21:13 boxed, of course, which apparently makes a difference to some people *shrug* 06:22:21 -!- lament has joined. 06:23:25 -!- augur has joined. 06:29:48 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 06:32:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:32:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:55:56 -!- evincar has joined. 06:56:13 I exist. 06:57:08 Thou think'st, therefore thou art? 06:58:11 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 06:58:12 Thou ask'st me, therefore I answer thee; and could thou tell the difference? 06:58:18 *couldst 06:58:21 Dammit. 06:58:33 C-c-c-combo breaker. 06:58:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:59:06 -!- tombom has joined. 07:00:23 So what's going on? 07:05:30 right now? apparently not much ;-) 07:06:12 * Rugxulo wrote a lame Befunge93 program that names the digit you enter, easy to i18n-ize, heh 07:06:39 a lot of people here are European, so I guess they're all asleep 07:07:58 09am here already, so possibly at work too. 07:11:19 2:10 over here. 07:11:28 The night is young. 07:33:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:34:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:36:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:36:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:38:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:39:14 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:41:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:48:06 Hey, Sgeo. 07:48:25 You get a chance to check out those links? 07:49:48 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:55:16 Ugh. Sleep beckons. 07:55:23 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Beckons.). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:54 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:08:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:10:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:11:48 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:15:24 -!- adam_d has joined. 08:36:19 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:37:11 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 08:44:21 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 08:46:54 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:47:09 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:48:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net). 08:53:21 befi.asm -> 13 SUBs, 13 XORs, 19 ADDs, 20 PUSHes, 24 POPs, 27 CMPs, 32 CALLs, 45 JMPs, 71 MOVs, etc. (including other less interesting numbers) 08:56:32 total of 53 unique instructions used 08:57:22 oh, and (surprise!) a Kenyan won the Boston Marathon ;-) 08:59:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:03:09 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:03:24 "A Kenyan has now won 18 of the past 20 men's Boston marathons" 09:03:38 dang, I didn't know it was quite that common 09:11:09 Oh, right, Ubuntu's clang package updated; I should maybe try out ff3 with it. 09:11:35 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 09:11:36 Er, except that I turned the computar off when leaving home today. Whoops. Well, maybe later. 09:15:51 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:16:26 * Rugxulo still can't get used to it being called "clang" (like a bell) instead of "C lang" 09:17:00 should've maybe been called "Clangejajofulkullok" ;-) 09:17:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:17:14 * Rugxulo would explode too with a name like that 09:17:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:17:56 why do so many people have ping timeouts? 09:18:09 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 09:26:49 I mentally pronounce "clang" as the bell sound instead of "see-lang"; I wonder how it officially speaking should be. 09:31:23 clang (as bell), I read somewhere 09:33:56 Apparently so. 09:34:11 "Clang (pronounced /ˈklæŋ/ like the English word clang[2]) is ...", [2] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2008-July/015624.html 09:52:14 -!- aschueler has joined. 09:55:14 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo). 10:00:32 AnMaster signed on at 4/8/2010 11:14:50 PM, and has been idle 7 hours, 48 minutes and 10 seconds <-- morning. 10:00:37 (now that is) 10:00:46 well, closer to noon 10:09:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:11:24 -!- lereah_ has joined. 10:12:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:14:02 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! 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Listen!). 15:37:00 from the creators of clue, www.vjn.fi/oklopol/toi.py 15:37:57 hmm, interesting 15:38:07 if someone wants a more comprehensive documentation (not sure there's much to add but i could clarify it), do tell, also the interp is incredibly slow 15:38:09 which clue, btw 15:38:15 the name is ambiguous 15:38:21 by incredible i mean don't run the example program for long 15:38:28 because it uses as much memory as ordinals usually do 15:40:06 oklopol, what does it do? Just very very quick desc. 15:40:30 like "it is an esolang" or "it is a game" or whatever 15:41:09 ah found the docs at the bottom 15:41:11 lets see.. 15:41:22 oklopol, esolang I guess? 15:59:27 ais523: from mine 15:59:36 esolang 15:59:56 so, if i leave some chicken in room temperature overnight, can i die from eating it? 16:00:08 iIlari and pikhq 16:00:10 i' 16:00:12 argh 16:00:21 i'm sure at least Ilari and pikhq know 16:01:46 it would be really easy to make the thing run non-exponential timely, but i would first like to know its computational class 16:01:55 haven't given it any thought really 16:03:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:03:50 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:06:53 the point of the language is you can't actually talk about any object, you can just map stuff over all objects 16:06:57 i guess that's the only point 16:11:25 SO HOW ABOUT THAT CHICKEN 16:11:52 maybe i'll just eat something else and eat the chicken some other day -> 16:18:46 ...about the chicken, there's a lot of information about what can cause food poisoning, but why would i give a shit about food poisoning if i don't die 16:19:09 -!- augur has joined. 16:19:28 augur: what's the probability that i die from eating chicken i left in room temperature overnight 16:19:56 very small 16:20:01 ive done it. 16:20:07 also, <3 16:20:09 bye 16:20:09 because i'm pretty sure it's 0%, but i've heard some stories about people actually dying of food poisoning 16:20:14 oh you have? 16:20:17 great 16:20:21 then i will too 16:20:29 bye :P 16:21:00 wait umm 16:21:05 actually there's also some cheese involved 16:21:14 that might complicate things? 16:22:11 why can't there be statistics on this stuff online 16:24:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:30:29 -!- lament has joined. 16:33:19 okay i decided to eat them because they tasted okay when i tasted them without cooking 16:33:36 so i suppose this is it, consider the language my obituary 16:34:09 if you do get food-poisoned, it's likely to be curable 16:35:30 possibly 16:35:47 but you'd think there's a continuous scale of food-poisonings 16:35:56 worseness scale 16:48:56 -!- lament has quit (Quit: lament). 17:08:07 -!- tombom has joined. 17:10:00 -!- oklofok has joined. 17:18:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:19:17 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:45:39 -!- augur has joined. 18:07:23 -!- jcp has joined. 18:18:31 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 18:22:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:29:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:05 Noone ever wants to hang out with me in #malbolge :( Of course not. All the cool kids hang out in #malbolge-t 18:54:05 #malbolge was empty and unregistered when I looked 18:54:25 #malbolge-t likewise 18:54:41 context indicated Freenode, but not strongly; I suspect they were just joking 19:16:25 -!- charlls has joined. 19:24:38 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo. 19:32:47 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 19:32:50 -!- charlesq__ has joined. 19:33:48 -!- charlesq__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:51:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:51:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:51:32 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:18:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:34:03 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:35:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:05:47 -!- augur has joined. 21:08:07 -!- nooga has joined. 21:08:10 great 21:08:15 now i'm stuck in edinburgh 21:08:39 ash cloud? 21:08:43 so they wouldn't let a simple pole on a complex plane today? 21:09:06 oerjan: hahahaha ohohoho 21:09:26 yeah, the f#$$%#$, icelandic ash cloud 21:09:39 icelanders smoke too much 21:10:09 oerjan: that's a pretty impressive joke to come up with so quickly 21:10:19 polandball cannot into poland 21:10:33 I'm enraged 21:10:35 ais523: well it's not quite new 21:10:56 ok, an existing joke, modified to fit in the context? 21:11:01 yeah 21:13:07 currently reading: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/btkx2/hands_up_who_is_secretly_hoping_katla_erupts_just/ 21:19:54 I imagine reactions would change significantly based on whether it kills a lot of people, or just makes air travel impossible for a decade 21:20:00 the second would give the world quite a wake-up call 21:20:05 the first would mostly be ignored 21:20:25 er... right 21:20:51 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2257 21:21:15 bleak, but realistic 21:21:49 something like eyftljktl 21:22:03 * oerjan doesn't find that very hard to pronounce at all :D 21:22:14 although the ll's are a bit surprising 21:22:46 especially the last one 21:24:54 welsh uses ll for a voiceless lateral fricative 21:26:28 well my own dialect does strange things with l itself, like many norwegian ones 21:27:29 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:28:28 fjell (cognate with -fjall- there) has a palatalized one, kull (not the same as jökull, but rather "coal") has the strange retroflex flap 21:29:59 I think the palatized is common in some dialects of swedish 21:30:00 and tillit (trust) has a "normal" l 21:31:16 weird, I consider the "normal" swedish to have the same l everywhere, and I think the dialects that do weird stuff do it consistently 21:32:37 well standard norwegian does more or less the same one everywhere 21:33:31 (newscaster pronunciation, or something) 21:46:22 -!- Azstal has joined. 21:46:28 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:46:37 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 21:51:07 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:51:14 -!- nooga has joined. 21:52:16 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:55:10 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:55:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:59:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:05:34 -!- Azstal has joined. 22:07:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:07:28 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 22:09:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!). 22:22:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net). 22:39:23 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 22:47:53 * uorygl ponders the decision problem "in formal system X, there is a proof of Y whose length is less than n" 22:48:19 Where n is written in unary or something. 22:49:01 I'm pretty sure that decision problem is in NP. 22:49:15 Well, if you restrict the formal system to stuff that runs in polynomial time, I guess. 22:49:22 Let's do so. 22:49:39 So yeah, I'm quite sure that's in NP. 22:50:05 And it seems like it's not in P, but maybe it is. 22:54:17 you can make Y any SAT problem, i should think. 22:54:18 if you can check a proof of length n in polynomial time, then finding it is in NP by definition 22:54:46 so, NP-complete precisely 22:55:22 the n doesn't even really enter into it 22:55:49 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:56:25 (Except that you need to make it large enough that the obvious test-the-correct-guess proof fits 22:56:29 ) 22:56:33 i assumed n was somehow linked to size of Y 22:56:58 no... for really _difficult_ Y's, n could be enormous 22:57:14 if you use other quantifiers than just existential then you can easily find pspace-complete stuff too 22:57:16 say if Y is an encoding of something EXPTIME, just for a start 22:57:16 err 22:58:03 essentially n is padding to get the whole problem down to NP, given Y's size 22:58:59 oklopol: pspace-complete doesn't work because the _proof_ would likely be exponential in size 22:59:20 well i meant in that case the problem isn't in as it may have to trace the whole pspace evaluation 22:59:22 NP 22:59:48 oklopol: the problem is in NP because n caps the size of proofs 23:00:19 basically the size of problem is size X + size Y + n 23:00:21 ...okay what's the input exactly, maybe i misunderstood? 23:00:27 alright 23:00:46 uorygl: correct me if i'm wrong there 23:01:11 but i thought that was the point of making n unary 23:01:26 if the size is calculated like that, then it's obviously in NP because you can guess the proof of length n... so it's pseudo nondeterministic polynomial 23:01:28 <.p 23:01:30 :P 23:01:43 right 23:02:16 oerjan: yes, that was the point of making n unary. 23:03:35 yeah okay i don't know what i was thinking 23:03:40 maybe i wasn't? 23:03:51 ok, when i said "the n doesn't even really enter into it", i meant just for the encoding SAT direction 23:04:02 it's obviously needed for showing < NP 23:04:16 the problem with math conversations on irc is no one bothers taking out the definitions and actually going through the details because there's nothing to write on 23:04:45 well maybe that's just a problem for me because i also happen to be unable to do that mentally when on irc 23:04:51 for SAT you just need X to be propositional boolean logic, i should think 23:05:33 oh also existence quantifiers 23:06:35 nothing more than predicate logic, anyway 23:09:25 we have a complexity theory course next year \o/ 23:09:26 | 23:09:26 >\ 23:09:47 i like to think it's because of me because i asked if they're gonna give courses on it 23:11:11 Aww, I want to take a complexity theory course next year. 23:11:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:11:44 there's also tilings and patterns & cellular automata 23:12:16 (oh my) 23:13:24 -!- Asztal has joined. 23:13:28 not sure the rest is that interesting 23:13:36 maybe i should stare at the courses again 23:13:40 But I'm stuck taking stuff like MTH 210 - Communicating in Mathematics. 23:13:41 i like to do that every few days 23:13:48 heh 23:13:52 "A study of proof techniques used in mathematics. Intensive practice in reading mathematics, expository writing in mathematics, and constructing and writing mathematical proofs. Mathematical content includes elementary logic, congruence arithmetic, set theory, functions, equivalence relations, and equivalence classes." 23:14:14 I already know elementary logic, set theory, functions, equivalence relations, and equivalence classes! 23:14:20 Congruence arithmetic, not so much. 23:14:33 so you'll be studying the first 5 pages of every math book intensively 23:14:56 you don't know congruence arithmetic? Z/nZ is a field iff n is a prime 23:15:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:15:21 If congruence arithmetic is the same thing as modular arithmetic, I do know it already. 23:15:26 -!- Asztal has joined. 23:15:28 i'm pretty sure it is 23:15:31 i should think so 23:15:40 we're pathetic 23:15:43 i KNOW it's the same. 23:17:04 I wonder what I'm supposed to do if I already know all the listed topics. 23:17:07 uorygl: the interesting thing is nZ are actually ideals of the ring Z, and in general we know R/I is a field iff I is a maximal ideal of R, and obviously nZ is maximal in Z iff n is a prime (n = mo = mZ is a bigger ideal) 23:17:17 err 23:17:18 typo 23:17:29 (n = mo => mZ is a bigger ideal) 23:17:43 uorygl: take some other course 23:17:53 This is a prerequisite for everything. 23:18:12 you actually have to take prerequisite courses before taking the actual ones? 23:18:21 Literally every required math course has this as a prerequisite. 23:18:29 in finland we can do what the fuck we want and everything's free 23:18:38 I hope you're exaggerating. :P 23:18:44 i'm not 23:18:48 well there are laws 23:18:57 and not all courses give you useful credits 23:19:16 but you can take any course you want to, and go to whichever lectures you choose, just do 25% of homework and take the exam 23:20:08 uorygl, what course is this? 23:20:15 When you say "in Finland", are you referring to a specific university? 23:20:21 Sgeo: MTH 210, Communicating in Mathematics. 23:21:19 i think all universities are free here 23:21:32 "Free" in the sense of being able to take any course you want to? 23:21:53 i mean they cost nothing, i'm also rather sure you can take any course you want to in most unis here 23:22:02 * uorygl nods. 23:22:17 I thought such places didn't exist. 23:23:11 there's also these unicorns who guide ppl from one lecture to the next 23:23:49 oklopol: Allow me to make your jaw drop then. (because mine already has) 23:24:05 In the US, $20,000 a semester is not an unusual cost for college. 23:24:57 i actually considered going to an american uni for a year mostly for the language, so i knew that 23:25:01 Some universities can cost significantly more than that. 23:25:10 but yeah that's pretty horrible 23:25:24 I think $20,000 seems pretty expensive. 23:25:28 I think the Ivy Leagues can get up to $100,000. 23:26:10 I think for my (crappy) college, it's ~$3,000/semester 23:26:14 There are some courses at our place that are a bit more strict than usual with the prerequisites, and also some that take a limited number of people and you have to specifically apply for them, but in general what oklopol says goes here too. 23:26:33 (though they tend to have full-ride programs if you are accepted and can't afford to pay that) 23:27:53 uorygl: I'm counting books, fees, board, not just tuition. 23:28:06 Oh, I should also mention. $20,000 is also quite often for state-funded schools. 23:28:11 I think that's still expensive. Not sure. 23:28:22 They have the nerve to charge for tax-funded institutions. 23:28:25 * Sgeo doesn't live at school 23:28:35 Sgeo: have you talked to those financial aid dudes yet? 23:29:06 Considering that my dad's now paying for an unlimited data plan, I think I'll hold off 23:29:19 >.> 23:29:38 If this is out of gratitude, you're making me slightly angry. :P 23:30:01 Hooray, capitalism. 23:30:27 Grand Valley State University's tuition is $4,315 per semester if you're taking 12-16 credits. 23:31:10 Wait, I was saying semester when I meant year. XD 23:31:18 Or $6,694, or something in between, depending on whether you're a Michigan resident or not, and on whether you're lower or upper division. 23:31:30 Oh. In that case, $20,000 isn't so expensive. 23:32:58 But, yeah. America seems to feel that education is a privledge for the wealthy or people willing to go in debt for much of their lives. 23:33:05 Ain't it "wonderful"? 23:33:14 I guess we're weird that way. 23:33:31 uorygl: By "weird" you of course mean "getting boned". 23:33:55 So, how come so many of us #esoteric people are Scandinavian-type people? 23:42:55 -!- coppro has joined. 23:55:12 Swedish politics is complicated. There are too many parties. :P 23:56:32 could be worse 23:56:34 could be too few 23:58:31 Yeah. I need to figure out how this coalition stuff works. 23:58:56 I take it you're unfamiliar with parliamentary systems? 23:59:03 Completely. 23:59:05 (as used in pretty much every democracy but the US) 23:59:36 The US is, in a few ways, the strangest country in the world. :P