00:39:13 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:50:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:14 "It started out like Romeo and Juliet, but it ended in tragedy." 00:55:23 A part of my soul died when reading those words. 00:56:03 Romeo and Juliet ALSO ended in tragedy! that "but" implies no contrast 00:56:11 this is a travesty 00:56:33 I note that Romeo and Juliet started out implying tragedy. 00:56:39 Line 6, wasn't it? 00:57:07 dunno, I've always assumed the actual play is boring so I've never read/watched it 00:57:23 I just know how it ends (everyone dies) 00:57:39 It's one of Shakespeare's weaker plays, to be perfectly honest. 00:57:49 It's just the best-known. 00:58:10 ah, the worst work gets most famous... what else is new? 00:58:11 ... Somehow, as being a major romance, rather than a tale of a couple of overdramatic wangsty teenagers that kill themselves. 00:58:24 hehe, very EMO :P 00:59:01 that is *emo - EMO is just an acronym that happens to be in use at work 01:21:37 "It started out like Romeo and Juliet, but it ended in tragedy." // what moron said this? :P 01:22:22 Many a moron. 01:22:58 The same sort of moron that thinks "starcrossed lovers" means they were fated to be together. 01:23:39 ... And ignores the words "take their life" immediately following. 01:31:56 take their life...to the movies! 01:47:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:07:18 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:30:16 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:33:30 -!- lament has joined. 02:50:06 What's the language where the or-equal-to things are >= and =< in order to prevent confusion with arrows? 02:54:53 Erlang 02:55:36 Hm. Any others? I think I saw that well before I even heard of Erlang 03:30:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:43:16 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:50:33 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 03:51:22 One of these days, I need to work on my kernel. So I can run shish on it. 03:51:46 Actually. I should just go ahead and make shish in kernel mode and call it a day. :P 03:54:58 pikhq: I've got something new for you to hate! 03:55:01 http://pastie.org/910806 03:57:02 coppro: That is such an awful use of the string literal operator. 03:57:34 pikhq: well, yeah, that's just for testing 03:58:01 BTW, I hate the string literal operator much less than many of the other operators, if only because it's bleeding obvious that you're not using the normal operator. 03:58:39 If void operator ""(const char *c, size_t len) is a valid function, though, I'm going to cockpunch someone on the standards committee. 03:59:22 -!- jcp has joined. 03:59:35 lol 03:59:38 * Sgeo_ needs to learn how to study 04:00:40 pikhq: unfortunately, it'll suffer scoping issue 04:00:42 *issues 04:04:01 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:11:29 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:13:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:22:31 -!- adu has joined. 04:26:45 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:31:37 -!- augur has joined. 04:33:42 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 04:53:03 -!- myndzi has joined. 04:53:44 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit). 04:53:48 -!- myndzi has joined. 05:09:57 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:15:16 -!- AnMaster has joined. 05:24:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:25:06 today's xkcd is literally side-splitting 05:25:25 So your sides were split, then? 05:25:43 I concur. I often find that xkcd splits the sides of my body. Oft in half. 05:25:51 indeed. 05:25:58 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:26:33 * oerjan hopes that pikhq didn't read it before saying that 05:27:13 -!- comex has joined. 05:27:35 because that would be ironic. literally. 05:27:38 Sadly, I did. 05:27:47 aww 05:27:50 However, I would have reacted the same way. 05:27:56 :D 05:37:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:43:49 How can it take THIS effen long to load a web page FROM DISK 05:52:59 Well, my Hatetris AI fails badly 05:53:31 Even managed to break the replay functionality 05:56:29 hatetris? 05:56:35 is that some sort of bastet thing? 05:57:02 Yes 05:57:07 Well, better than bastet 05:57:12 Even if it seems a bit repetitive 05:57:29 better is figuratively speaking i guess 05:57:35 qntm.org/hatetris 05:57:40 it turns out it's a little hard to make a good bad tetris algorithm! :) 05:58:05 oh also 05:58:12 i solved stacked odds ;p 05:59:07 interesting 05:59:12 you seem to have implemented some of srs(?) 05:59:35 also lol @ infinite S's 06:00:19 this is kinda cheating ;P 06:02:28 I didn't make it 06:02:51 I'm trying to get it to play against itself, bur I did not make Hatetris 06:03:06 oh 06:03:37 well, it's extremely easy to make a sequence of pieces that's basically unplayable, but it's not very fun 06:03:58 Try to use the S's to your advantage, and see what happens 06:04:03 i know 06:04:10 that's why i said "lol infinite s's" 06:04:13 because i was still stacking them 06:04:17 It's not just s's 06:04:26 I got a line 06:04:27 i know 06:04:46 i got 3 i think, but i lost interest immediately 06:08:44 ok, 5 is easy 06:08:48 but the ai is too lame 06:08:58 My AI is magically making a tower to the top after 3 moves 06:09:11 lol. 06:10:10 i don't think this ai can be exploited 06:10:22 not sure though 06:11:06 because of how it works, any holes you leave will be filled least efficiently 06:11:12 with a two wide pit, it'll alternate s's and z's 06:11:25 it doesn't seem to account for slides though 06:11:36 i wonder if you can do t-spins 06:11:40 t-spin? 06:11:45 though i don't think it'll be easy to make it give you a t 06:11:48 maybe you can twist some other piece 06:11:51 probably a z or s 06:13:24 ah, i understand, i think 06:20:55 My AI is the worst tetris AI ever 06:22:37 http://i.imgur.com/95ew3.png 06:23:23 haha 06:23:31 gj 06:24:03 i suspect that if i can set up a repeating pattern where a rotation will clear a line from what would have been deemed the worst piece, things would work out 06:40:15 o yea, i got 6 06:41:33 ha, i got a t 06:48:15 and i got a z-spin single 06:48:15 :D 06:54:34 Well, my AI's a little smarter 06:54:40 Not that that's saying much 06:54:52 smart enough to get 6? ;p 06:55:03 randomly rolling a horizontal position and an orientation would be smarter than your AI 06:55:11 Smart enough to not put ALL the pieces on top of eachother 06:55:25 The code takes transforms 06:55:32 If it took positions, it would be much easier 06:55:54 [I'm just hooking into the "find the best possible" subsystem of sam512's code] 07:01:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:49 -!- lament has quit (Quit: lament). 07:01:50 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:08:06 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 07:10:22 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:18:02 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:28:49 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 07:31:04 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 07:48:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:56:43 -!- zerker has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:10 -!- zerker has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:18:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:22:23 -!- adam_d has joined. 08:34:01 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 08:49:26 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 08:51:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:52:24 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:05:11 -!- tombom has joined. 09:36:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:55:41 ais523: pingin' yer brain 10:00:30 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:01:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:01:21 MigoMipo: no not you, but thanks for trying 10:01:48 BeholdMyGlory is lexicographically closer 10:02:03 ??? 10:02:17 oklofok: What? 10:04:58 stupid joke, nm 10:08:52 i asked for ais, you came 10:51:45 GUESS WHAT I'M DRINKING 10:51:45 8D 10:52:21 sperm 10:52:43 no 10:52:46 why is everyone saying that 10:52:46 >.< 10:52:49 i am drinking 10:52:50 ... 10:52:52 A WARRIORS DRINK 10:52:53 8D 10:53:10 :D 11:37:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:40:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:45:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:47:07 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:47:14 -!- cheater3 has joined. 11:57:24 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:04:28 -!- adam_d has joined. 12:06:22 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 12:08:03 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:12:55 what does "a warriors drink" mean 12:22:51 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:43:26 -!- alise has joined. 12:48:42 -!- lereah_ has joined. 12:58:01 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:58:59 -!- tombom has joined. 13:09:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:10:37 Dispatch! 13:10:44 Coinductive data types are Hard. 13:11:01 why is everyone saying that <-- i think i can say, with some confidence, that it's your own damn fault. 13:12:04 alise: what is a coinductive type 13:12:20 Quadrescence: basically it's like an inductive data type except it can be infinite. 13:12:27 of course there is a lot more technical detail behind it, and there are restrictions 13:12:35 for instance you cannot say foo = foo, but you can say foo = cons 1 foo 13:12:37 example? 13:12:43 I see 13:12:47 (there has to be a constructor; although there can be some wrapping around a constructor) 13:12:53 and recursing over them is restricted 13:13:04 it's mostly coq making this bit hard though :P 13:13:55 in coq coinductive types have the awesome side effect that proofs can be infinite... 13:14:30 sounds kind of not cool 13:14:43 not literally infinite like, on disk 13:14:52 I know 13:14:55 but like you can prove things about infinite data types using the recursion mechanism... 13:14:55 ""infinite"" 13:14:59 (of course it's safe recursion...) 13:15:02 which is nice 13:15:13 Quadrescence: whatever you say zeilberger 13:15:36 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:16:00 alise: No, I mean ""infinite"" as in NOT REALLY INFINITE but QUOTE infinite UNQUOTE 13:16:10 anyway zeilberger is the coolest ever <3<3<3 13:16:22 -!- tombom has joined. 13:17:22 damn finitists! 13:17:32 :D:D:D:D:D:D 13:17:40 I am a finitist 13:17:47 just sayin 13:18:09 HEY DUDE, WHAT IS THE CARDINALITY OF [0,1} 13:18:11 ]* 13:18:40 74 and one half 13:18:49 That is not a lot 13:18:54 that's what she said 13:18:58 I expected at least a kilobyte 13:19:08 yeah well i'm a hyperfinitist 13:20:47 lereah_: what are you doing with that } there 13:21:08 typoing 13:24:24 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:24:25 alise: early escape today? 13:24:49 Nope; just not so tired as I normally am. 13:36:16 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 13:54:08 -!- tombom_ has joined. 13:56:49 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:57:16 -!- tombom__ has joined. 13:58:50 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:59:47 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:02:00 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 14:05:38 05:33:10 how many people here are from the UK, and in their 20s? 14:05:40 not me also! 14:05:43 ais is 14:08:54 alise is in her 60s 14:09:47 in dog years. or thereabouts. 14:09:52 * oerjan runs away 14:17:52 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:25:13 alise: yeah... but ey's not here 14:25:37 a nomicker? 14:25:42 ? 14:25:59 Spivak pronouns tend to be used most by nomic players. 14:26:05 Admittedly we usually use e instead of ey. 14:26:06 i suspect SimonRC as well 14:26:19 oerjan: of playing nomic? 14:26:24 probable 14:26:40 oh 14:26:40 no, of being in the uk and in his 20s 14:26:41 20 uk 14:26:47 26 14:26:49 he is in the uk and 20s seems likely 14:26:55 and... no, not nomic 14:27:14 You should. :) 14:42:35 -!- Alex3012_ has joined. 14:45:07 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:45:09 -!- Alex3012_ has changed nick to Alex3012. 14:58:41 http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791/ ;; this is exactly what i want to write my funge in 14:58:46 too bad it isn't, you know, released 15:09:09 * alise muses over the name of his funge 15:09:34 If I named it hyphæ, I couldn't stand to lose the ligature. 15:09:46 Which is pretty out if I use any sort of low-level language. 15:09:59 Shiro just makes me think of Japanese. 15:10:10 And ascus... well... "An ascus (plural asci; Greek for "skin bag") is the sexual spore-bearing cell produced in ascomycete fungi." 15:11:08 Perhaps ethanol. 15:12:24 hey guys 15:12:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamonad 15:12:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teliospore; telia/telium? 15:13:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basidium; basidi(um|a)? 15:13:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: I never m). 15:13:12 *basidium/basidia, for clearness 15:13:15 oerjan: :D 15:14:43 telia just makes me think of tequila (my objections don't have to be rational). 15:15:01 Basidia is on the long side; basidium jumped off the Cliff of Long. 15:15:13 So maybe I should stick to the hyphae/shiro/ascus trilogy. 15:16:11 Well, pronouncing hyphae just makes me think of hyphy, and then I want to jump off a bridge. 15:16:44 Also, my mouth doesn't seem to enjoy pronouncing shiro... but then, I really don't want to name my funge interpreter "skin bag". 15:18:43 "This user has never left the Northern Hemisphere." -- interestingly, this also implies you've either immigrated from the southern hemisphere to the northern and then stayed there, or that you also have never left the southern hemisphere :) 15:18:51 I've never left the Northern, Southern, Eastern or Western hemispheres! 15:50:39 hang on... 15:50:48 what are the other 2 hemispheres called? 15:51:03 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:52:24 What do you mean? Land/water hemisphere? 15:52:33 umm... 15:52:45 I am confused now. 15:53:33 "rotate" the earth such that you're looking at it, such that you can see the "seams" of both the north/south and east/west hemispheres, and you're looking straight at the intersection 15:53:44 what is the hemisphere that you can see called? 15:53:50 also s/can/can't/ 15:55:02 colloquially the "front" and the "back"... but i wondered if they had official names 15:56:39 did that make sense? 15:57:39 if not: take a carving knife down the +90 and -90 meridians 16:07:36 not all the hemispheres have a name (the earth has *infinite* hemispheres) 16:27:42 alise: Why not dust off your previous funge attempt 16:29:03 Deewiant: You think it had basically any code? No. :) 16:29:22 yiyus: infinite, are you sure? 16:29:37 Deewiant: Besides, I want to be some sort of contester as far as speed goes, so out goes Haskell. 16:30:39 alise: I was thinking that it might get you kick-started a bit so that you don't have to spend a week figuring out a name and then another figuring out a language and another figuring out directory structure or whatever you're wont to do next 16:30:50 alise: an hemisphere is a half of an sphere, and you can cut it through infinite planes 16:30:57 yiyus: well, yes, but... that;s the other "logical pair" 16:31:25 Deewiant: I haven't weeks! Hopefully I will start coding today. 16:31:26 pineapple: I don't know of any names for them 16:31:38 Language is leaning towards C, though detest it I do. 16:31:58 If you want the æ you can use D ;-) 16:33:06 *If you want the æ and uncountable billions of years of suffering, you can use D. 16:33:17 Well yes, there's a tradeoff 16:34:08 I don't know why you haven't given up on D. :) 16:34:20 It would be nice to have Schemeish macros so that I can define my n-dimensional fungespace. 16:34:28 I guess nobody actually uses dimensions above two, though. 16:34:41 CCBI2 is such a metaprogramming mess that it'd be insane to switch over at this point 16:35:32 I have some test cases for trefunge which I guess is a "use" 16:36:09 There is some sort of editor written in Trefunge, but I don't care. 16:36:22 Yes, that's the only "actual use" I know of 16:36:28 Or can recall at this moment 16:37:53 And unefunge is basically identical to befunge, isn't it? 16:38:18 It's as identical to befunge as trefunge is :-P 16:38:41 What errors arise from interpreting Unefunge as one-line Befunge code? 16:38:48 All possible? 16:38:53 Really? 16:38:56 p should pop one coordinate, not two, for example 16:38:59 So 22+ behaves differently? 16:38:59 Ah. 16:39:06 Anything that messes with vectors changes 16:39:09 Now how much actual Unefunge code is there? 16:39:14 Zero that I know of 16:39:19 I don't even have test cases for it :-P 16:39:38 Also, you guys need to write documentation for how Befunge stuff actually works. 16:39:38 Mostly because I trust that if my shit works for >1 it works for 1 16:39:48 What do you mean? 16:39:53 Since the specification appears to be less of an accurate descriptor of Befunge than, say, the toilet paper I used this morning. 16:40:13 Mycology tries to be helpful in that regard 16:40:13 *description 16:40:28 Right, but it doesn't say "do this", just "ha ha you did this specific thing wrong. do this instead" :-) 16:40:51 ("do this" `isInfixOf` "ha ha you did this specific thing wrong. do this instead") == True 16:41:35 == True? A pointless expression if I ever saw one. 16:41:47 Anyway, Mycology requires you to first make the errors. 16:41:54 The readme of Mycology explains some of the hairier non-fingerprint stuff 16:42:21 Assigning every instruction to initially do nothing should work decently well 16:42:50 Apart from not telling me anything at all. 16:43:04 But, okay. I suppose the best place to start is indeed Fungespace? 16:43:12 Mycology should then usually tell you "BAD: foo did bar instead of baz" 16:43:28 How can it do that if all instructiosn do nothing? 16:43:36 If you want the æ - the what? 16:43:37 *instructions 16:43:44 Your code is expected to create the function run(code) where code is a Befunge-98 source. The code argument will be a string. Lines are separated by "\n". 16:43:44 http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/ 16:43:46 that's some contest 16:43:51 do you think they realised? 16:44:15 http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/entries/cyrnus/ I somehow doubt this passes Mycology 16:44:18 Well for example if I do 01g and expect to get 2 and you instead do nothing, I'll say "BAD: I got 1 instead of 2" 16:44:29 alise: Hey, that's new. 16:44:32 Deewiant: Not if the output instruction does nothing. 16:44:42 alise: what's the "gimmick" to your funge? 16:44:47 -- This is a mostly standard compliant non-concurrent Befunge-98 interpreter 16:44:50 http://www.curseforge.com/contests/3-befunge-98/entries/vaeyl/ 16:44:51 alise: Well, you can do the obvious ones. 16:44:55 pineapple: It's just Yet Another Befunge-98 Interpreter. 16:45:08 Deewiant: Okay. :P 16:45:23 so why is the (i'm not pasting it again, damnit) ligature important? 16:45:33 Because I want to name it hyph\ae. 16:45:41 Or shiro, or ascus. But probably not ascus. 16:45:43 aaah 16:45:53 alise: Read the readme: sanity.bf expects 0123456789.@ to work, IIRC 16:46:02 Deewiant: Okay, okay, I'll download Mycology. 16:46:09 and there was me thinking of a funge language that uses it as an instruction 16:46:28 * Deewiant runs those others through Mycology just for fun 16:47:07 I am a preëminent Befunge implementer, and wrote the hyphæ interpreter. 16:47:12 ok... that's a rather gross idea: 16:47:17 Gah, except they only define the run() 16:47:19 what if a funge could fork? 16:47:48 pineapple: It can; t. 16:47:55 Deewiant: Trivial wrapper to do, surely. 16:47:58 'alise: And ascus... well... "An ascus (plural asci; Greek for "skin bag") is the sexual spore-bearing cell produced in ascomycete fungi."' <<< how about just 'skin bag'? 16:48:03 oklofok: :D 16:48:14 alise: i don't mean befunge itself, but a befunge variant 16:48:18 First entry: vaeyl. Doesn't get through the Befunge-93 area. 16:48:21 GOOD: p modifies space 16:48:21 Unknown command 16:48:26 (Unknown command repeated ad infinitum) 16:48:34 Deewiant: :D 16:48:49 like putting a retarded kid in a wheelchair through a military obstacle course 16:48:59 Makes me wonder if any of these do the stuff that's even quite clearly explained in the spec correctly 16:49:42 It might actually be that it can't handle \r\n 16:49:46 what's going on? 16:49:47 eminate would be a nice interpreter name 16:49:58 I'll be nice and try a nuxified one 16:50:02 oklofok: some kids wrote some "befunge-98" interpreters in lua for some contest 16:50:04 they suck lol 16:50:24 Yeah, much better 16:50:42 vaeyl dies due to k not working as expected, unsurprisingly enough 16:51:01 GOOD: 0k^ doesn't execute ^ 16:51:01 BAD: 1k[ turns left at [ 16:51:01 BAD: 4k # does nothing and hits # 16:51:01 BAD: 2k ;;;5 does nothing and hits 5 16:51:01 BAD: 2k# jumps once from k 16:51:03 GOOD: ak47k$ leaves 3 fours on stack 16:51:06 BAD: 2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack 16:51:12 I mean, the last /is/ kind of unexpected. 16:51:25 :D 16:51:29 how many should it leave? 16:51:33 three 16:51:48 right because 2k executes 6 twice, then moves onto 6 16:51:56 Right 16:52:08 so nkx, assuming x doesn't fuck with the ip or similar shenanigans = x^(n+1) 16:52:12 wolftankk is either damn slow or buggy; 20 seconds and counting and it hasn't printed anything 16:52:27 alise: Unless n is zero 16:52:33 XD 16:52:38 Deewiant: It's better to leave TRDS-related surgery until after I've got something working, yeah? 16:52:45 Very yeah 16:53:21 I still have a comment in my TRDS impl saying essentially "I don't know wtf to do in this case but this hack seems to work for all existing programs, maybe it's right, maybe not" 16:53:25 I like the idea of program surgery. 16:53:35 There should be some sort of new-age non-textual editor based on program surgery. 16:53:38 (That dates from my firstish implementation of TRDS and still stands) 16:53:45 Okay, wolftankk isn't doing anything 16:54:35 where are these interps and why do they exist WHAT'S GOING ON 16:54:43 DEATH 16:54:46 DEATH IS ALL-SURROUNDING 16:54:55 jerry did pretty well 16:55:04 BAD: 0k^ executes ^ at ^ 16:55:12 Come on! That's explicitly in the spec 16:55:19 BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1 16:55:19 BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack 16:55:23 That latter one is a rare sight 16:55:54 Hell, I'm not sure that anything that got that far has triggered it previously 16:56:06 It doesn't have a corresponding GOOD so I mostly forget it's there 16:56:19 101-{} should leave stack as 1 -1? why not 1 0 16:56:24 err reverse those 16:56:26 :P 16:56:41 isn't {} nop? 16:56:45 Because read the spec or Mycology's readme :-P 16:56:51 No it's not 16:57:03 oh okay i must remember it wrongly then 16:57:12 Anyway, jerry failed at i somehow 16:57:18 shoulThe directions were generated in the order 16:57:19 d have pushed (60, 119) as Va 16:57:19 ? was met 33 timesThe directions were generated in the order 16:57:19 lua: /home/deewiant/arst.lua:654: bad argument #1 to 'char' (invalid value) 16:57:19 i haven't used 98 features like ever, just read the spec once 16:57:27 I think it managed to find a t somehow 16:58:34 cyrnus fails at k as did vaeyl 16:59:11 So hey, their votes actually reflect how well they did in Mycology :-P 16:59:33 Perhaps cumulate would be a good name. 16:59:34 Except cyrnus should be a bit lower because it doesn't have SGML spaces (not tested yet but visible in the output) 16:59:43 Grr, I really want a decent name. 16:59:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:59:50 CCBI and cfunge and RC/Funge are shit names. 16:59:55 :-D 17:00:02 What's in a name 17:00:31 The name is the thing! 17:00:32 That which we call a Befunge-98 interpreter by any other name would execute as sweet 17:00:41 The thing is the name, modulo our human vision. 17:00:45 But non-humans do not use Befunge! 17:01:06 What's a "good" name to you 17:01:16 alise, working on a funge interpreter? 17:01:19 Yes. 17:01:21 CCBI is from the days when I just called every idea an acronym because I couldn't think of anything 17:01:38 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 17:01:46 Memorable, short, easily pronounceable (I am aware this one is subjective), no icky connotations, and æsthetically pleasing. 17:01:54 The last one is subjective too; shock and horror. 17:02:06 alise, don't say "easily pronounceable" to anyone from Finland 17:02:11 that is a *really* bad move 17:02:15 :-) 17:02:19 :-D 17:02:23 "Aseroe" and "mutinus" are nice possible names... 17:02:30 but they're just really obscure funge geni 17:02:31 alise, how do you pronounce them? 17:02:37 *genera 17:02:44 hm 17:02:52 AnMaster: Ass a row and mutin- (ala "mutiny") us. 17:02:58 Ass a row is admittedly not the most pleasant thing to say. 17:02:59 hm 17:03:01 :-D 17:03:11 I may be wrong about their pronunciations: I'm just guessing. 17:03:18 The genus name is derived from the Ancient Greek words AsÄ“/αση 'disgust' and roÄ“/Ïοη 'juice'. 17:03:18 alise, yeah, hardly better than "as a column" 17:03:22 Disgust juice, ass a row! 17:04:07 http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/images/mut6.jpg <- mutinus 17:04:09 btw, I'm unlikely to have much time for funge during the next few weeks. Probably not until the summer. 17:04:10 i suck at this 17:04:12 alise: Why does pronounceableness matter for a Funge interpreter, it's not like anybody will ever talk about it 17:04:25 You don't get people talking aloud in your head on IRC? 17:04:29 alise: You even have a logo! 17:04:37 No, I don't really subvocalize 17:04:41 Not only a logo, a phallic logo! 17:04:41 You don't get people talking aloud in your head on IRC? <-- no? 17:04:42 Well, not much 17:04:56 I'm pretty sure everyone who reads has some sort of voice, because it's just the interpretation of the word. 17:06:19 nah 17:06:30 Maybe I'll call it descartes, from the coördinates 17:06:31 when reading books perhaps 17:06:47 That'd be lahey 17:07:08 alise, that begs for a fingerprint ESCH! 17:07:30 (from MC Escher obviously) 17:07:41 Why? 17:07:44 Deewiant: Heh, true. 17:07:52 How is Lahry intended to be pronounced? 17:07:54 *Lahey 17:07:58 alise, that does weird geometry 17:08:06 Deewiant, btw, who *was* Lahey? 17:08:16 AnMaster: Can't remember 17:08:20 alise: Can't know 17:08:24 Presumably some guy on a mailing list who generalised Fungespace. 17:08:29 Presumably 17:08:36 ah yes that sounds familiar 17:10:52 The problem with funge names is that fungi are basically [...] gross. 17:10:57 :-) 17:11:07 varies 17:11:19 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:12:02 alise, what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria ? 17:12:19 That mushroom has smegma. 17:12:24 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Amanita_muscaria1.jpg pretty, no 17:12:30 --was honestly my first reaction. 17:13:00 you must have a dirty mind? 17:13:09 No, that's what it really looks like you see. 17:13:32 not really 17:13:46 alise, and it is one of the more common toxic mushrooms iirc 17:13:50 at least in Sweden 17:16:41 alise, what about chanterelles? (Interwiki indicates that is the English name for them) 17:16:53 Whatever. 17:16:54 I always found them ugly 17:17:03 weird 17:17:13 I don't like their taste. But ugly? nah 17:17:51 Reishi is a nice name but I don't feel like the connotations. 17:18:00 Zomg miraculous chinese health. 17:18:10 You and your connotations :-P 17:18:17 yes 17:18:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:20:07 is shi death or something in japanese 17:20:10 alise, as far as I can tell from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reishi#Lingzhi_research_and_therapeutic_usage it *may* actually work. At least it looks like some studies suggest it may have some beneficial properties 17:20:17 don't care 17:20:21 :p 17:20:26 alise, don't care about? 17:20:27 Just like your interpreter, it may actually even work ;-) 17:20:36 Deewiant, :D 17:20:40 pikhq: your time to shine 17:20:50 oklofok: It is also four 17:21:15 (And probably a bunch of other things) 17:21:58 Commandment. 17:22:07 Ugh, I wish there was a good fast language. 17:22:16 Don't we all 17:23:17 alise, you know a lot of plants do have medicinal uses, or had before we started synthesising the active compounds? (Of course, a lot of other plants turned out to be less beneficial ;P) 17:23:28 i wish python wasn't as fast, there's no challenge 17:23:36 eh... 17:23:40 AnMaster: Of course. Aspirin. 17:23:48 alise, that is a famous example yes 17:23:53 Penicillin 17:23:57 and that 17:24:00 and there are quite a lot of other ones 17:24:03 But, still, google reishi: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=reishi&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:unofficial&client=firefox-a 17:24:05 -!- tombom_ has joined. 17:24:14 "Cancer/Reishi". Er, no. 17:24:19 "Reishi Qi Booster". Er, no. 17:24:19 alise: Google CCBI? 17:24:28 Deewiant: I do not have to be shit at naming just because you are :) 17:24:34 Meh 17:25:45 alise, err, actually that link I gave before, seems to cite some studies indicating there *are* such effects. However, I lack the expertise (and access to journals) to check the sources it cite. 17:25:55 just trying to get a balanced view here 17:25:58 They scientifically measured qi? 17:26:00 Ha. 17:26:12 alise, nah, it was "Laboratory studies have shown anti-neoplastic effects of fungal extracts or isolated compounds against some types of cancer. In an animal model, Ganoderma has been reported to prevent cancer metastasis,[10] with potency comparable to Lentinan from Shiitake mushrooms.[11]" 17:26:40 The site it is on is not so reassuringly reputable: 17:26:43 "Red Reishi (Ganoderma Lucidum), commonly known as Ling Zhi in Chinese, is a herbal mushroom known to have miraculous health benefits." 17:26:47 "# When it is taken regularly, it can restore the body to its natural state, enabling all organs to function normally." 17:26:50 alise, that quote was from wikipedia 17:26:54 I know. 17:26:59 wich of course isn't reputable 17:27:01 I'm saying that whatever the studies it has a connotation. 17:27:12 I meant the site the Cancer/Reishi page was on. 17:27:20 alise: Meh, now you got me thinking about renaming CCBI, too. Just pick a name and be done with it :-P 17:27:28 Deewiant, I like the current name 17:27:32 what's wrong with it? 17:27:34 Deewiant: You should name it to something with no more than one capital letter. 17:27:43 alise, why? 17:27:44 AnMaster: Says the one who picked the name "cfunge". 17:27:51 alise, yes and? 17:27:54 -!- tombom__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:27:57 I fail to see what is wrong with cfunge too 17:27:59 Not exactly a name of stunning eloquence. 17:28:05 maybe not 17:28:09 AnMaster: Not: Googlable, pronouncable, æsthetic 17:28:11 but a good and solid name still 17:28:32 Deewiant, I can pronounce CCBI quite okay. The double C is a slight issue however 17:28:44 Deewiant, that it isn't googable is a larger problem 17:28:45 It's still four syllables 17:29:06 Deewiant, how do you pronounce SCSI? 17:29:15 See see bee eye. Crappy pronunciation. 17:29:26 I heard it something like that wikipedia suggests: "scuzzy" 17:29:28 Basically this all comes down to a matter of findability, and æsthetics. 17:29:42 AnMaster: Well yes, it has that pronunciation. 17:29:43 The former is objectively measurable; and some people have the latter, some people don't. 17:29:51 CCBI doesn't, and isn't very amenable to one. :-P 17:29:53 I don't see AnMaster as a particularly æsthetic person. 17:29:54 Deewiant, but it isn't spelled like that 17:29:56 I mean 17:30:04 there is no vowels in SCSI. 17:30:10 err wait 17:30:13 apart from the I 17:30:14 that is 17:30:19 Yes, you don't /have/ to pronounce CCBI as four separate letters 17:30:21 CCBI also has just one 17:30:24 Deewiant: You can pronounce CCBI as "suzuby". 17:30:27 Deewiant, that was my point 17:30:29 Just like you don't have to pronounce SCSI as such 17:30:31 The z is like the z in "scuzzy". 17:30:32 alise, nice 17:30:40 Deewiant: You wouldn't want to, though. 17:30:42 AnMaster: But my point was that there isn't a very nice such pronunciation of it :-P 17:30:49 alise: Yep 17:30:59 alise, actually in Swedish jargon I believe SCSI is pronounced more like "skassi" (that is spelled in Swedish) 17:31:16 we don't have that "buzzing" z-sound in Swedish 17:31:51 (and the sk would be quite similar to sc in the English variant) 17:32:19 Deewiant, SCSI -> scuzzy isn't a very "obvious" pronunciation to me either 17:32:19 "buzzing" == voiced 17:32:25 How do you onomatopœise the sound a bee makes? 17:32:30 bzzz 17:32:34 alise, "surr"? 17:32:35 In Swedish. 17:32:37 alise: do you like MAKE ROOM FOR MAH SHROOM as a name 17:32:39 AnMaster: Surr?! 17:32:45 Surr in Finnish too 17:32:48 alise, not pronounced like it would be in English at all 17:32:49 That's shit. 17:33:05 alise, we have a completely different u sound, and quite a different r sound 17:33:10 alise: Your r's are shit, so :-P 17:33:19 yeah what Deewiant said 17:33:28 Do I have a rhotic accent or not? I forget. 17:33:31 And is that good or bad? :P 17:33:37 :-D 17:33:38 Deewiant, ever heard someone from SkÃ¥ne pronounce the letter r? 17:33:40 people are boring and unreachable elsewhere, let's try this one 17:33:41 find_consts(f, inputs, g) := for k = 0 to infinity { n_0_loop: for n_0 = 0 to infinity { for n = n_0 to infinity { for i in inputs { if len(trace(f(inputs(i)))) > k*g(n) then continue n_0_loop }; return (n_0, k) } } } } 17:33:45 what does this do 17:34:02 oklofok, what language? 17:34:05 Stuff 17:34:08 pseudocode 17:34:14 hm 17:34:17 there's a good reason for that 17:34:18 yeah what Deewiant said 17:34:23 i can explain notation if you like 17:34:51 oklofok, no I already found out what it does. I was coming to the same conclusion as Deewiant, he was a bit quicker than me though. 17:35:07 stuff is correct, but not specific enough 17:35:13 It looks like it does just what it says, I can't think of any clearer way of expressing that 17:35:14 Gah, someone just name my funge. 17:35:20 Deewiant, :D 17:35:21 alise: mehfunge 17:35:22 right but what consts 17:35:30 Deewiant: Fuqoo. 17:35:30 what are f, inputs and g 17:35:30 AnMaster: I'm serious 17:35:35 Note: oo is pronounced u. 17:35:48 alise: Funqoo 17:35:53 Fungoo? 17:35:55 Gooey-Funge 17:36:06 oklofok: I don't know, they could be anything as far as I can tell 17:36:08 Deewiant: there's a very short explanation for what it does 17:36:10 FUNKu 17:36:10 alise, Hydnum coralloides 17:36:13 \\\\\\\\ 17:36:14 it looks nice 17:36:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dsc04896-Hydnum-coralloides.jpg 17:36:21 oklofok: What's trace? 17:36:49 trace(f(x)) runs f with arg x and trace provides a trace of this run 17:36:54 like what f did 17:37:00 Ookay 17:37:15 actually the explanation would be nicer if i change it a bit... 17:37:23 oklofok, then how is the trace formatted? 17:37:24 So it's some kind of big-O thing 17:37:30 yeah 17:37:30 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:37:35 oklofok, since it seems to take the length of the trace.... 17:37:38 Looking for the appropriate constants 17:37:51 is it the length of a string of it? Or the length of the trace in number of steps? 17:37:51 the program f's time complexity is O(g), and you look for the invisible constants 17:38:02 Yep, something like that 17:38:20 It'd help if it weren't on one line but yeah, I can see that :-P 17:38:31 yes, probably 17:38:33 ah, hm yes that seems to make some sense 17:38:35 somewhat 17:39:22 a = -1; for i = 0 to infinity {a = -a}; print a^2 17:39:51 (...don't take offense, that wasn't meant as a challenge, i just wrote it for some reason) 17:40:37 alise: You do realize you don't need a name to code 17:40:46 Deewiant: Sure I do: namespaces 17:40:52 alise: "placeholder" 17:40:58 Deewiant: Ew. 17:41:09 You and your æsthetics, again 17:41:30 alise: You can also code a reasonable deal without using namespaces 17:41:48 aesthetics are the best ethics 17:42:15 Deewiant: yeah but meh 17:42:15 well is 17:42:17 :P 17:42:40 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 17:42:41 alise, what language btw? 17:42:58 alise: I'll just think back to my statement about you taking weeks before you get started :-) 17:43:11 Deewiant, 80% of that is deciding the name 17:44:37 I just code something that does a bit of what it should. Then I start doing proper version control, extend the program a bit, then I decide I need a non-collection-of-bad-hacks build system, then I code some more and so on 17:44:54 alise, what would you have called a short utility program for finding duplicate files? 17:45:04 I guess you wouldn't have picked the one I did: find_dups 17:45:11 That's more like a function name than a project name. 17:45:14 I'd call it duplicates. 17:45:19 $ duplicates foo.txt 17:45:22 what? 17:45:35 What what 17:45:36 it recurses through dirs. 17:45:42 $ duplicates foo/ 17:45:44 So what? 17:45:53 yeah but what would it even *do* on a single file 17:46:02 AnMaster: xargs foo.txt | duplicates 17:46:08 xargs < foo.txt* 17:46:10 you do something like ~/bin/find_dups images porn ;) 17:46:15 Or whatever, gah 17:46:17 I fail at xargs 17:46:26 Deewiant, yes completely 17:46:34 xargs duplicates foo.txt maybe 17:46:40 No 17:46:44 xargs duplicates < foo.txt 17:46:48 argh typoed that 17:46:51 heh 17:46:58 xargs is hard ;-P 17:47:02 Deewiant, but yes that has some downsides when you hit the argument list limit. Since it needs to know *all* the files to compare 17:47:09 I mean, you want to find all dups 17:47:17 so if you get one file at a time it is fairly useless 17:47:46 Deewiant, and I hit the allocation limit on cmd line args. Which on linux is based on something in ulimit nowdays 17:48:18 AnMaster: Which is why "duplicates foo.txt" instead of xargs 17:49:24 alise, btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agaricus_bisporus 17:49:37 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:49:42 Deewiant, right. But then you need to provide a list of those in there 17:49:57 Deewiant, like find huge_dir -type f > foo.txt 17:50:03 Yes, and that was the implication from the start 17:50:09 meh 17:50:44 Deewiant, there are some small theoretical advantages with not doing it 17:50:59 Sure 17:51:01 I agree that it is fairly irrelevant for practical purposes 17:51:17 but consider disk cache. The program uses stat() to read the file sizes 17:51:25 so it doesn't have to check as many files against each other 17:51:30 it only need to check those with the same size 17:52:03 if you process a large enough nested dir tree, the file info and such may no longer be in disk cache 17:52:20 which they are likely to be after just getting a listing of all files in the dir you are working on 17:52:49 Deewiant, so theoretically, and depending on how the filesystem stores the file metadata, recursing in the program can be faster ;P 17:53:05 I very much doubt it matters practically though 17:53:52 Meh, I'll just call it funge for now as a placeholder. 17:53:54 Now to decide language :P 17:53:57 haha 17:53:58 XD 17:54:11 alise: Use C as a placeholder 17:54:22 alise, you know, "funge" is a bad name. It could look like an attack on other implementations. Like trying to steal the show 17:54:27 not that I suggest that is the case 17:54:32 just that it may *look* like that 17:54:36 AnMaster: You really think I'll name it that? 17:54:37 AnMaster: It's a placeholder 17:54:47 I said "placeholder"; please look up words in the dictionary before talking about them in future. 17:54:52 yes but placeholders has a tendency to stick 17:54:53 AnMaster: Besides, stinkhorn used to be called befunge98... 17:54:57 Deewiant, heh 17:55:02 Deewiant: C is a pretty bad placeholder, considering it's nitty and gritty :P 17:55:09 alise: :-P 17:55:30 Seriously, I'd write it in C-Scheme in a heartbeat. 17:55:41 C-Scheme? 17:55:51 that sounds interesting 17:56:15 alise, what is C-Scheme? 17:56:28 http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791/4 17:56:28 google gave me just "Scheme for C programmers" and such 17:56:45 Full thread including first post with broken BBCode: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192820791 (nothing interesting really apart from /4) 17:57:59 where is the current implementation? 17:58:15 In your dreams 17:58:15 Obviously nowhere, it's just some random forum post ffs. 17:58:25 Thus "I'd write it in" not "I'll write it in". 17:58:28 alise, "All of the above works. It's a pretty damn easy thing to write." fooled me 17:58:45 AnMaster: "Exists" != "released" 17:58:56 Deewiant, well yes. I was considering that. 17:59:00 Of course it's easy to write. 17:59:06 alise, so first step: Implement C-Scheme 17:59:08 "So I've written some really basic parser in Scheme which you pass a list of s-expressions and from that it produces C code." 17:59:09 Simple. 17:59:13 AnMaster: And /that/ is the task I don't want to do. 17:59:18 See how this works? 17:59:23 hah 18:01:51 I mean, I can't use C directly. The thing doesn't even have proper strings. 18:02:00 C++! 18:02:17 * Deewiant ducks 18:03:25 alise, it isn't like Funge uses a lot of strings. A few yes, but not many 18:03:56 I thought we were talking about C-Scheme 18:04:10 eh? 18:04:16 not about "funge"? 18:04:18 2010-04-09 19:58:42 ( AnMaster) alise, so first step: Implement C-Scheme 18:04:19 2010-04-09 19:58:49 ( alise) AnMaster: And /that/ is the task I don't want to do. 18:04:23 2010-04-09 20:01:27 ( alise) I mean, I can't use C directly. The thing doesn't even have proper strings. 18:04:28 The last one was for funge. 18:04:32 Darn. 18:04:35 Deewiant, [can't use it for funge] pretty obviously 18:04:59 I just couldn't connect requiring strings and Funge. 18:05:10 alise, idea: call it 0"egnuf">:#,_@ 18:05:10 Well, it's just such an inconvenient language. 18:05:13 I hate allocating memory. 18:05:16 Hate it, hate it, hate it. 18:05:28 I just couldn't connect requiring strings and Funge. <-- indeed 18:05:36 I found it improved performance by a veritable crock 18:05:43 Deewiant: A crock of shit? 18:05:44 Deewiant, what did? memory allocation? yes 18:05:52 manual such for funge 18:05:53 definitely 18:06:11 funge really doesn't gain very much from a GC most of the time 18:06:25 alise: A crock of performance, obviously 18:06:36 Allocating memory in the large, yes; but for tiny temporary structures? 18:06:50 Fortunately there's this thing called the stack :-P 18:07:32 TBH I'm still worried that using "new" in some tiny temporary structures is messing up my performance because Tango's GC is so shit 18:07:55 Well, fuck Tango. 18:08:13 Not many alternatives :-) 18:08:32 Of course "shit" is relative 18:08:37 ~D is an alternative. 18:08:38 It's decent enough most of the time 18:08:53 alise: Like said, not any more ;-P 18:09:05 Well, you suck rabies. 18:09:14 Actually, I don't 18:09:16 Maybe I should use ML and compile it with MLton or something, but ML is crufty. 18:09:22 Deewiant: OR DO YOU? 18:09:29 I'm fairly sure I don't 18:09:34 OCaml? 18:09:49 Ugly, but maybe preferable to C by your standards 18:09:50 If ML is crufty, what do you think my opinion of OCaml is? 18:10:06 Better than that of C? 18:10:16 That thing is like Cruft Central in Cruft Town, in Cruftaska, "State of the Cruft", in the good old United States of Cruft. 18:10:30 How about Factor 18:10:43 ~D is an alternative. <-- "about D"? 18:10:44 Ehh, no. 18:10:49 or is it a weird smiley? 18:10:49 AnMaster: "not". 18:10:53 lern2asciilogic 18:11:02 alise, oh ¬ 18:11:13 alise, try altgr-shift-` 18:11:19 ¤ 18:11:19 that is the dead key ` 18:11:27 Deewiant, that is shift-4 for me 18:11:29 ¤ 18:11:31 For one, I have no dead keys. 18:11:31 4 18:11:35 For two, my alt-gr key is an alt. 18:11:37 Deewiant, shift-4 is 4? 18:11:39 For three, no. 18:11:41 Yep 18:11:47 Oh, I know! 18:11:48 Deewiant, weird 18:11:50 I'll write it in MYTHRYL! 18:12:15 what the heck is that? 18:12:18 heh 18:12:24 It sounds like a fantasy parody 18:12:27 One of our favourite language scapegoats: http://mythryl.org/ 18:12:33 It's like ML but shittier! 18:12:55 alise, worse than "Plain English"? or whatever the name was 18:12:59 Er, no. 18:13:02 But Plain English isn't functional. 18:13:05 well no worry then 18:14:09 Wow, Mythryl has "stipulate X herein Y end", which is the same as "Y where X end". 18:14:23 Stupefying. 18:15:32 #define stipulate 18:15:36 #define herein where 18:15:43 #define end 18:15:43 Wrong. 18:15:45 Read my sentence again. 18:15:48 Haskell == Mythryl 18:15:53 Oh, darn 18:15:58 Meh 18:15:59 It's just, the terminology :D 18:15:59 Deewiant, oh darn what? 18:16:06 I flipped it 18:16:17 heh 18:16:34 basically i want something like c that can manage memory and has a nicer syntax 18:16:36 something with := in it. 18:16:49 alise, presumably you would dislike this mushroom too? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Agaricus_bisporus_%28Cup_mushroom,_doubled%29.jpg 18:16:56 Not that I can see anything wrong in it 18:17:03 AnMaster: You don't find that gross in any way? 18:17:10 alise, no? why would it be? 18:17:18 trees fuse together too sometimes 18:17:34 Look at it - like, with your eyes. 18:17:51 it's nature. I'm not a biology student, but when younger I was quite interested in biology. Spent a lot of time out in nature. 18:18:30 you know, forests, travelling by foot. And even seeing the day star! 18:18:50 alise, but no I don't see anything gross. 18:18:55 It's unusual certainly 18:18:56 For one, take your condescending "I'm-in-touch-with-nature" out back and shoot it. For two, I'm not dissing the mushroom, I'm just saying it looks gross. 18:19:18 alise, what I was saying was "I *was* in touch with nature" 18:19:23 I'm not saying I still am 18:19:34 the "travelling by foot" bit put me off nowdays 18:19:35 Just as condescending. 18:19:40 the mushroom does not look gross 18:19:43 puts* 18:19:48 The mushroom is SEXY! 18:19:52 what? 18:20:22 what the *hell* are you seeing in it. Heck you don't need ink blots.... 18:20:35 you just need a mushroom, and not even eating it. 18:20:57 So thinking eating a mushroom is sexy is OK? :P 18:21:19 alise, I have no idea. I'm not a psychologist. 18:21:26 alise, btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Champignons_Agaricus.jpg 18:21:35 now don't say that is gross too 18:21:58 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BoroughMarketMushrooms.jpg 18:22:19 alise, I agree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jreishi2.jpg looks gross though 18:25:25 Deewiant: Gah, you're right; I'm stuck on language. 18:25:33 alise, why not haskell? 18:25:34 There are no /good/ languages. Why not? 18:25:44 AnMaster: Haskell sucks :P Okay, it doesn't suck, but it's too slow for this. 18:25:44 alise, you praised haskell before 18:25:46 And it has warts. 18:25:56 alise, okay. Agda then? 18:25:57 Coq? 18:26:02 CoqFunge 18:26:26 I bet there isn't a befunge98 implementation in agda before 18:26:35 befunge93 *maaaybe* but also unlikely 18:26:40 Agda is most certainly /not/ anything more than a research tool. 18:26:41 oklofok: "Shi" is the number 4. 18:26:47 oklofok: "Shin" is death. 18:26:48 alise, and? 18:26:54 It's been proved inconsistent several times -- admittedly those are usually fixed quickly -- 18:27:08 and it's basically a mathematical research vehicle with no programming conveniences. 18:27:15 alise, what about coq then? 18:27:20 pikhq: Eh? Isn't "shin" "new"? 18:27:23 Coq could do it if not for the fact that, you know -- BEFUNGE IS TURING COMPLETE, and all Coq programs terminate. 18:27:28 Plus, again, there's very little programming facility. 18:27:42 alise, but befunge is not in practise TC. It may run forever though 18:27:48 so that is indeed an issue 18:27:49 See the latter. 18:28:03 true 18:28:05 Coq/Agda are not appropriate tools for this task in the slightest. 18:28:10 Deewiant: Also true. 18:28:28 pikhq: I.e. I maintain that "shi" == death 18:28:30 Deewiant: Though, "shin" is only "new" in compounds. 18:28:58 -!- tombom_ has joined. 18:29:06 pikhq, Deewiant: what language? 18:29:15 Nihongo 18:29:15 AnMaster: Japanese. 18:29:15 AnMaster: Japanese. 18:29:21 pikhq, okay 18:29:23 Deewiant, what? 18:29:27 日本語 18:29:43 Deewiant: Strictly speaking, it's more that "shini" is "death" and it gets elided to "shin". 18:29:57 alise, are the shelves adjustable in the first one? 18:30:02 AnMaster: Har har har. 18:30:03 (sorry for that one) 18:30:09 "shini" I've only seen in compounds myself :-P 18:30:31 Deewiant, you speak Japanese? 18:30:37 Very little 18:30:39 heh 18:30:42 Understand a bit more 18:30:45 more than I do certainly 18:30:52 å›ãŒå‹‰å¼·ã™ã‚‹ã¯ãšã¨æ€ã†ã€‚ 18:31:04 pikhq, the degree sign is usually at the top 18:31:17 AnMaster: Good thing that's a period, then. 18:31:18 Read kana/kanji, not at all any more (used to know the kana decently) 18:31:29 (yes I'm being silly I know) 18:31:46 Dude, you don't remember kana? That sucketh. 18:31:53 * AnMaster threatens Deewiant using a kata instead 18:32:12 No, what sucketh is that I don't know of any decent kana->romajifier :-P 18:32:40 Thou shalt not use romaji for Japanese. 18:32:43 http://nihongo.j-talk.com/kanji/? :-P 18:32:43 But anyway, at least wiktionary agrees with me on the shi thing so I must be right 18:33:04 Awesome 18:33:07 It sucketh no more 18:33:10 I just googled for it. 18:33:14 "kana to romaji" 18:33:15 there is only one good reply from pikhq to what Deewiant said 18:33:19 (æ±ã¯ãƒ­ãƒ¼ãƒžå­—を使ã‚ãªãã¦ã¯è¡Œã‘ãªã„。) 18:33:20 * AnMaster hopes he uses it 18:33:22 meh no 18:33:28 I'll do it for him then 18:33:29 alise: It's probably newer than my previous Google 18:33:40 Deewiant, shi-t 18:33:53 AnMaster: Hah. 18:33:56 (where is oerjan btw?) 18:34:12 pikhq: Yeah, well, it's easier than learning the kana :-P 18:34:14 (I can't stand the pressure of doing this) 18:34:27 Deewiant: Which is a two day project. 18:34:44 Basically what I'm saying is you suck and are illiterate in Japanese. :P 18:34:45 That must be repeated once a month 18:34:52 Deewiant: I knew it existed ~2007 18:34:53 I agree, I am 18:34:54 or thereabouts 18:34:59 Or... You could just keep learning Japanese. 18:35:11 Like, read stuff in it. 18:35:12 pikhq, but why? 18:35:22 Yeah, but that's, like, work :-P 18:35:27 what use do you have for it? 18:35:32 TO UNDERSTAND ANIME AS IT WAS TRULY INTENDED TO BE UNDERSTOOD, AS A VIABLE ARTISTIC WORK 18:35:36 obviously 18:35:38 :D 18:35:43 AnMaster: Well, if he wants to actually speak Japanese. 18:35:56 alise: Dude, anime is only slightly less niche in Japan than it is here. :) 18:35:56 pikhq, oh? Did he? 18:35:58 I guess then 18:36:28 If he doesn't desire that, than, well. He'll just continue not speaking it. :P 18:37:33 pikhq: From what I gather it's more than slightly less niche. 18:37:35 Yes, that's pretty much my expectation. :-P 18:38:10 alise: With the exception of a few works that have gotten popular, it's pretty much seen as "that thing severe geeks enjoy". 18:40:02 I thought it was a multimillion industry or something? 18:40:54 Turns out there are a lot of geeks 18:41:11 Yes... What's popular is absurdly popular. 18:41:27 pikhq, isn't pokemon in anime style or something iirc? for example 18:41:41 Pokemon, for instance, is absurdly popular amongst children. 18:41:42 or at least some pokemon movies or whatever 18:41:59 pikhq, yes and isn't there some zdragonball or something? 18:42:02 Most of the popular anime are for children, really... 18:42:25 Dragonball Z was based on a popular manga; the show was not as well-remembered. 18:42:28 http://pastie.org/911859.txt?key=x3j8viguq8vwfm5prgwo8q A list structure, and two map functions, in an imaginary language that's something vaguely unlike C. 18:42:40 pikhq, can't tell the difference. Since I'm *not* such a geek I guess 18:42:56 AnMaster: Manga are comic books. 18:43:02 pikhq, ah okay 18:43:19 Which *aren't* all that niche. 18:43:36 huh 18:43:42 zdragonball, it's compressed. 18:43:50 dragonball.Z 18:43:51 Well, right, maybe I was misremembering what was niche or not. 18:43:59 I do distinctly remember that manga is relatively mainstream. 18:44:01 fizzie: It deserves it. 18:44:08 It is. 18:44:13 As we know, all anime is really for children anyway, and only geeks with no social life watch it. They're usually perverted, too. 18:44:22 btw looking at wikipedia's article on anime, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modernanime.jpg <-- I certainly couldn't tell that the second column, second image from the bottom was anime 18:44:26 some of the other ones were quite easy 18:44:27 Also tentacles are involved, I know that much! 18:44:35 alise: Not all anime is for children. Oh, lord no. 18:44:48 pikhq: You just say that because you have no life. 18:44:55 (P.S. I may be trolling you.) 18:45:08 pikhq: Do you recognize that top-left one from AnMaster's? I think I do but can't put my finger on it 18:45:26 Deewiant: Dead Leaves. 18:45:32 Deewiant: You could have read the description. 18:45:37 Okay, then I didn't 18:45:37 That was a positively *fucked up* movie. 18:45:39 don't call it mine. It is on wikipedia simply. 18:46:00 alise: Oh, he actually linked to the page and not the pic; I just automatically clicked on the pic and then forgot 18:46:02 It is the devil! No! I shall not be associated with it! Aaaaah! 18:46:34 alise, nah, I just don't want it to tarnish my trademark ;P 18:46:35 That also reminded me that I really should re-watch Lain some day 18:46:59 Remember: AnMaster® 18:47:08 AnMaste® 18:47:14 AnMaster®. Does what it says on the tin. 18:47:19 :D 18:47:24 Your search - ® - did not match any documents. 18:47:24 wth 18:47:27 google fails 18:47:33 surely wikipedia will have an article on it 18:47:50 The Lain picture wasn't very instantly recognizable. (At least to someone who has only seen it once quite a long time ago.) 18:48:10 No, not very. 18:49:10 alise: That pastie: see, now you're inventing languages instead of implementing funge 18:49:15 Deewiant: I KNOW 18:49:26 Deewiant: SAVE ME!!! 18:49:34 alise: http://gcc.gnu.org/ 18:49:53 I'd rather hang myself with a crisp made out of rotten marshmallows. 18:49:59 Which would, incidentally, be a rather interesting task. 18:50:00 http://clang.llvm.org/ if you're the more adventurous type 18:50:24 Join us now and shaare the software 18:50:30 You'll be free, hackers, you'll be, freeeeeeeee 18:50:31 alise: Whatever happened to "leaning toward C"? :-P 18:50:36 Deewiant: I realised C sucked. 18:50:47 Did you forget that everything sucks? 18:50:59 yeah but some things suck less 18:51:15 So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max 18:51:25 Or min, whichever 18:52:10 Or just forget the whole writing-a-program idea since it's quite clear you won't be getting very far ;-P 18:52:21 AFK for a bit -> 18:52:41 -!- alise_ has joined. 18:52:54 So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max 18:52:54 Or min, whichever 18:52:54 I can't consider every language. 18:52:54 Ping. 18:53:39 That didn't go so very well, given the just-before-your-join AFK for a bit -> 18:53:44 Your timing, it is not optimal. 18:53:52 * Sgeo_ has a Data Structures assignment 18:53:59 :-) 18:54:05 Implement a stack, and implement a queue 18:54:14 Sgeo_: How difficult. 18:54:18 The stack is so.. easy in Haskell, the queue only slightly less so 18:54:26 You don't say. 18:54:34 It's not technically the mutable structures they want though 18:54:36 alise_, the assignment is in C++ though 18:55:23 fizzie: You provide me with encouraging language suggestions. 18:55:31 alise: Forth. 18:55:55 fizzie: I love Forth, but... no. 18:55:59 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:56:10 Glass? 18:56:18 I love Glass, but... no. 18:56:25 HQ9+ 18:56:37 18:56:40 There was that one thing, the name of which I always forget. 18:56:46 " " HQ9+, "... ". 18:56:55 fizzie: Describe it? 18:57:23 "Deewiant: So just put everything on the suck-scale and take the max" <<< what if the lattice of languages w.r.t. sucking is not a complete lattice?!? 18:57:37 then the sup is not a language! 18:57:41 *might not be 18:57:46 It looked a bit like English prose, and you had some sort of objects or classes or such named after famous people, at least in examples or something. 18:57:58 oklofok: clearly I'd just flesh out whatever language it returned 18:58:04 by picking from less-optimally-nonsucking languages 18:58:15 fizzie: Shakespeare? 18:58:21 Ork? 18:58:29 What's Ork? 18:58:59 It was probably Ork I was thinking about. 18:59:13 I was writing something in Ork, and kept naming things after mathematicians. 18:59:27 Or physicists. 18:59:29 Or something. 19:00:28 Right, there was the class "mathematician", and I was trying to instantiate all objects of it using names of thematically appropriate mathematicians, and it was taking a long time to come up with suitable ones. 19:00:39 :-D 19:00:47 Sounds like my predicament. 19:02:16 Oh, right; I did a class for bitwise operations called "logician" to compute CRCs in Ork, and had to think of logicians. 19:02:23 When a checksum computer is to initialize a number: 19:02:23 I have a logician called Frege. 19:02:23 Frege is to lsb result. 19:02:23 There is a mathematician called Laplace. 19:02:23 Laplace's first operand is result. 19:02:25 I like the lang. 19:02:32 Frege, Tarski, O'Connor. 19:02:47 It probably says something that I put Russell O'Connor on that level. 19:03:49 Oh, and Goedel of course. 19:04:05 Peirce. 19:04:44 Sgeo_: Those are very easy data structures. 19:05:08 oklofok: ... it probably is a complete lattice. 19:05:27 Deewiant: I find that really funny and I don't know why 19:05:29 oklofok: Given that it's finite and all. 19:05:30 (what you just said) 19:05:34 XD 19:05:39 :) 19:05:39 Deewiant: Just so you know, the AI competition deadline is today; I guess you weren't going to do it? 19:05:42 but... 19:06:03 for instance C could be considered the union of C_k where k is the size of bytes 19:06:08 and anyway 19:06:08 fizzie: I was going to a long while ago and then I missed the signup-deadline and decided not to 19:06:19 there must be parametrized language families 19:06:21 Incidentally, the lecture slides for that course are poor at best 19:06:39 so what if say we had k-dimensional funges as separate languages, and k+1 was better than k 19:06:49 then clearly at least that sublattice wouldn't be complete 19:07:12 oklofok: You assume a nonsensity 19:07:35 what nonsensity 19:07:53 Deewiant: Even the old lecturer -- whose slides they are -- was mostly using the book's slide-set last year. I don't really know what the lectures this year have been like. 19:07:54 I assume that parametrizable languages can be thunk of as one language 19:08:14 pikhq, I know 19:08:21 I just don't feel like writing C++ 19:08:29 fizzie: I don't know about the lectures themselves either 19:08:39 Deewiant: no, because you will have to choose the parameters. 19:11:06 Deewiant: 26 submissions so far out of 52 groups. But there's still some three hours to the deadline. 19:11:13 http://clang.llvm.org/ if you're the more adventurous type <-- really? It works quite well in my experience 19:11:26 [*] for certain values of work 19:11:49 yeah but some things suck less <--- ah, go! 19:11:50 Gah, I'm being flooded 19:11:55 Deewiant, with what? 19:11:57 Deewiant, water? 19:11:58 wine? 19:12:01 GAH 19:12:01 IP packet? 19:12:04 Deewiant: More stuff more stuff! More stuff! 19:12:10 IRC text lines? 19:12:15 I assume that last one. 19:12:23 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:12:23 oklofok: You can't be the one choosing them since we're looking at implemented ones 19:12:45 fizzie: Aye, there'll probably be another 15 at least soon enough 19:12:50 so if one program implemented both haskell and C, would you say haskell = C? 19:12:55 AnMaster: "for certain values" being the adventurosity 19:13:08 Deewiant's like a batch system! You submit a comment, it ends up in his processing queue, then a reply comes a lot later. 19:13:10 or is it that two languages are different iff they can be separated by implementation 19:13:19 that is, there's a language that only implements one 19:13:34 The latter 19:13:41 ah 19:13:42 (Obviously ;-P) 19:13:44 well i guess that makes sense 19:14:09 fizzie: Yes. 19:14:32 so okay 19:15:04 the space of all programs now has a topology with as basis the open sets {L | I implements L} 19:15:05 AnMaster: "for certain values" being the adventurosity <-- yes, but |values| has increased with time 19:15:14 anyway 19:15:18 alise_: why not Go? 19:15:37 AnMaster: But it's still less than GCC's 19:15:42 AnMaster: "dunno" 19:15:45 don't feel like using go 19:16:21 fizzie: I also have something with a deadline for 23:59 that I've yet to finish 19:17:12 alise_, that rhymes 19:17:13 nice 19:17:32 Deewiant: That's no problem; the effective AI competition deadline is actually 00:05 tomorrow. 19:18:03 alise_: BitC? 19:18:34 It's a bit of a pipe-dream project. And the author disappeared to work for the Evil Empire for a while. 19:18:38 Deewiant, bah, you have more time left still than I had earlier today 19:18:48 and I sent it in with just half an hour to go 19:18:58 Difference is that I'm being flooded 19:19:09 Deewiant, so ignore irc? 19:19:09 Deewiant: Yet you keep reading. 19:19:10 I did 19:19:17 BitC? 19:19:23 I just closed irc client, having bouncer on logging 19:19:32 alise_, what? the BitC author? 19:19:34 I'd rather procrastinate 19:19:37 AnMaster: Yes. 19:19:40 and evil empire = Microsoft? 19:19:41 Same guy as the Coyotos guy. 19:19:42 Yes. 19:19:47 huh 19:19:53 alise_, that explains why it became inactive 19:19:58 Yes; he's back now though. 19:20:17 alise_, but won't MS sue him if he ever writes anything open source basically? 19:21:07 No? 19:21:14 He doesn't work for Microsoft any more. 19:21:22 well, he saw their code... 19:21:28 some of it at least 19:24:05 // Gregor can't spell ... 19:24:05 #define ORK_instanciate ORK_instantiate 19:24:06 nice one 19:24:10 from ORK source code 19:24:16 * AnMaster looks at Gregor 19:24:31 * Sgeo_ googles 19:24:38 Sgeo_, try ORK esolang 19:24:40 BitC isn't an esolang? 19:24:42 it is on codu anyway 19:24:48 Sgeo_, .... of course not 19:24:49 AnMaster: Believe it or not, Microsoft's legal department isn't *that* crazy. 19:25:01 AnMaster, I didn't know what it was until I googled it! 19:25:05 pikhq, I'm leaning towards "not" 19:25:05 ;P 19:25:19 http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2008/07/java-is-too-academic.html 19:25:29 Deewiant, what? *clicks link* 19:25:35 AnMaster: He couldn't work on WINE or ReactOS, but that's mostly a CYA manuever. 19:25:56 Deewiant, is it sarcastic? 19:26:01 I hope it is 19:26:15 I'm not your personal sarcasm-detector 19:26:18 pikhq, CYA? 19:26:30 Deewiant, then who is? 19:26:38 I'm not your secretary either 19:26:46 Deewiant, then what are you? 19:27:21 A member of the set people \ { AnMaster's sarcasm-detector, AnMaster's secretary } 19:27:27 AnMaster: Cover Your Ass 19:27:33 -!- coppro has joined. 19:27:37 Deewiant, heh 19:27:47 pikhq, aha 19:28:34 Of course it's sarcasm you nitwit. 19:28:36 He's a functional programmer. 19:28:54 * alise_ wonders whether writing p->q as pq is nice or just horrible. 19:29:05 p /\ q = (pqr)r 19:29:09 p \/ q = (pr)(qr)r 19:29:24 alise_: How's the funge 19:29:38 :)))) 19:29:40 pick a lang 19:29:46 Pick a card, any card. 19:30:10 alise_: We've got Python and Perl but not Ruby or Tcl 19:30:18 Deewiant: how's the deadlines 19:30:30 oklofok: How do you like them apples? 19:30:30 I'm working on it in the background 19:30:38 Deewiant: Ruby yeck, Tcl yeck 19:31:08 alise_: You asked me to pick a lang, not you 19:31:15 Why ask if you'll reject 19:31:20 What was wrong with Haskell? 19:31:23 Speed 19:31:36 Abuse unboxed types! 19:31:40 Speed, the need for. 19:31:44 Of course it's sarcasm you nitwit. <-- you are a good sarcasm detector. But I would prefer Mk.2, where they fixed some major bugs, such as: irritating wooosh sound no longer produced, no longer applies irony or sarcasm itself, fixed bugs that could cause flamewars 19:31:52 Sgeo_: Let me guess: "yeck" 19:31:58 fizzie: are you being a bot? 19:32:12 oklofok: I am channeling the spirit of fungot, yerrrs. 19:32:13 A bot, the being of. 19:32:13 fizzie: fnord) f(x, y) type requires that ruby extension allowing you to see which way it is. 19:32:23 alise_: See, fungot recommends ruby too 19:32:24 Deewiant: they look exactly identical here.) 19:32:39 alise_, okay what about scheme? 19:32:39 Well, or then it just can't tell the difference between ruby and other languages 19:32:39 Isn't Ruby also considered slow? 19:32:46 AnMaster: Not fast 'nuff. 19:32:48 alise_, prolog? 19:32:49 Sgeo_: Shh ;-) 19:32:59 alise_, oh you want fast? I know the perfect language then 19:33:01 alise_, VHDL 19:33:10 alise_: I think ML was your best idea yet 19:33:10 or Verilog 19:33:22 VHDL == hardware stuff? 19:33:28 Erm, simulation of hardware stuff? 19:33:38 Deewiant: Perhaps. 19:33:38 Sgeo_, what exactly is your question? 19:33:43 Deewiant: I don't really... know ML, though. 19:33:50 alise_, anyway, why not VHDL 19:33:56 AnMaster, trying to figure out if my vague recollection is correct 19:33:57 alise_: So learn? 19:34:08 Sgeo_, it is a language for programming FPGAs and such in 19:34:10 *gasp* Something alise_ doesn't know! 19:34:18 of course you can simulate it too 19:34:19 Deewiant: Yeah, but... 19:34:26 Deewiant: I want something /fast/ fast. 19:34:27 I just got handed a project to write an anti-virus engine in Python, which I don't know, within a month, one week of which I'll be away 19:34:31 alise_, asm! 19:34:42 alise_: Haven't you heard of writing fast-fast things in C/asm? 19:34:44 If there was a compiler that basically did whole-program specialisation... now that would be cool. 19:34:46 Deewiant, what? 19:34:48 I imagine simulating it is slower than just writing C 19:34:49 Deewiant: So don't. 19:34:56 Yeah but not fast fast fast. 19:35:09 Of course, with an FPGA [programmable hardware, I guess?], it would probably be faster than C 19:35:13 Sgeo_, perhaps. Useful for testing it. Running under a debugger is slower than not doing so as well often 19:35:17 alise_: I meant, take the bits that need to be fast-fast instead of fast and do them in C/asm 19:35:24 You know, polyglots. 19:35:25 Stalin is supposed to be faster than C, or at least that's what they claim. :p 19:35:28 Does alise_ have an FPGA? 19:35:35 Deewiant: Oh, I'm not that obsessed enough. 19:35:49 fizzie: Yes, well, restricted R4RS designed for numerical code -- writing a Funge in that sounds fun. 19:35:54 * Sgeo_ tends to value sanity over speed 19:35:56 Deewiant, Hm? Is C with inline asm really a polygot? 19:36:15 I thought polygot required it to work completely free standing in each languae 19:36:19 language* 19:36:29 like: perl foo works and so does python foo 19:36:30 polyglot: containing, or made up of, several languages. 19:36:31 or whatever 19:36:39 It's a word. 19:36:48 Deewiant, what about a polygot in the sense I described? 19:36:50 what is that called 19:36:54 1. polyglot -- (having a command of or composed in many languages; "a polyglot traveler"; "a polyglot Bible contains versions in different languages") 19:36:55 A polyglot. 19:37:07 Deewiant, well I don't want to include C with inline ASM 19:37:20 http://svichet.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/pinocchio-paradox.jpg 19:37:23 oops 19:37:30 It is relatively easy for an inexperienced developer to produce code that simulates successfully but that cannot be synthesized into a real device, or is too large to be practical. 19:37:31 something like gcc foo.c -o foo working the same as as foo.c 19:37:33 would fit 19:37:43 but not C with inline ASM 19:38:05 Does alise_ have an FPGA? <-- he could in theory get one? 19:38:11 *she 19:38:17 Remember your nick-pronouns. 19:38:45 Can things like video cards be made with VHDL? 19:38:47 It is relatively easy for an inexperienced developer to produce code that simulates successfully but that cannot be synthesized into a real device, or is too large to be practical. <-- well sure. 19:38:48 yeah the one nick that tells you gender and you ignore it 19:39:23 actually, gender(nick-alise) = augment(male, pronouns = pronouns(female)), whereas gender(person-behind(nick-alise)) = male 19:39:26 it's quite complicated 19:39:52 Sgeo_, I'm no expert but I think some components would probably not be. For example the physical card wouldn't be. Nor would the fan (duh). Probably not the video memory either 19:39:57 alise_: Additionally it has been established that you is girly. 19:40:00 the rendering stuff could 19:40:03 in fact it has been done 19:40:09 hardware ray tracing and such 19:40:31 When will hardware ray tracing be commercially and cheaply available? 19:40:42 fizzie: Furthermore, we have found, following intense thought, introspection and discussion, that the best course of action for the board to take is to resolve that you is been found to be girly. 19:40:59 yeah the one nick that tells you gender and you ignore it <-- yes because to me he is mentally still ehird 19:41:27 so... if someone asks you what alise's nick is 19:41:30 you'd say ehird? 19:41:44 oklofok, I would say his current nick is alise_ 19:41:55 AnMaster: well, don't say "he"; it's rude. 19:42:00 -- says the rudest person in here. 19:42:19 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 19:42:25 hm separate, non-linked nickserv accounts 19:42:27 interesting 19:42:40 same goes for tusho 19:42:50 alise_, did you know about /ns group? 19:43:09 Unknown command: ns 19:43:12 ;-) 19:43:14 Deewiant, /quote then 19:43:18 your irc client fails 19:43:21 not my fault 19:43:30 Is that really a failure? 19:43:30 (it *is* a server side alias) 19:43:44 Deewiant, well, no. It is a feature, Like every other bug. 19:43:58 Now you're being snarky. 19:43:59 of course in this case it is more likely to be a misdirected feature in fact 19:44:13 /quote 19:44:25 Deewiant, "snarky"? *googles* 19:44:34 Um, why didn't this work: /quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric 19:44:41 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky gives it as "A word that should be googled to find the definition as per direction from Dane Cook. It means short tempered or irritable." but I don't think that is true 19:44:54 Sgeo: You're giving too many parameters to "privmsg" there. 19:44:55 /quote privmsg #esoteric /quote privmsg #esoteric 19:44:59 (urbandict was the top hit) 19:45:01 AnMaster: if I considered the identities to be one in the same, I would group them. 19:45:14 You want something like /quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote ... there. 19:45:15 Sgeo, add the : where it should be 19:45:16 Sgeo: you forgot the : 19:45:21 alise_, heh 19:45:26 alise_, yeah you are complex 19:45:26 AnMaster: Why heh? 19:45:33 alise_, see above ^ 19:45:36 /quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric 19:45:43 I don't get what you mean. 19:45:54 /quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric 19:45:56 /quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric :/quote privmsg #esoteric 19:45:57 alise_, "above: opposite of below"? 19:46:00 Didn't work either 19:46:03 AnMaster: What? 19:46:05 Sgeo, it did 19:46:18 Sgeo, just your client doesn't echo what you send that way 19:46:23 since irc doesn't echo 19:46:30 it is up to the client to do so 19:46:38 alise_, see above ^ 19:46:40 I don't get what you mean. 19:46:43 alise_, "above: opposite of below"? 19:46:56 alise_, what is it you don't get there ;P 19:47:53 You're being deliberately annoying & obtuse./ 19:47:58 s/\/$// 19:48:11 alise_, yes 19:52:39 Deewiant: Anyway, do you mean SML by ML? 19:52:51 Any-ML 19:52:55 (NEML) 19:53:28 I should MAKE NEML! :P 19:54:04 Pronounced either Enny Emmel or Enn Ee Emm Ell 19:54:11 The best thing is that they both sound the same! 19:54:48 I'd pronounce it nemmul anyway 19:59:19 alise_: this is ur fave song right http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeSj7rdKrKE 20:00:12 what 20:03:43 Deewiant: SML is tempting, except for that I don't see how I'd (a) manage memory in it, nor (b) write an efficient fungespace in it. 20:03:56 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 20:04:07 alise_: Write your Funge-Space in C and the rest in SML? 20:04:24 Deewiant: Functional languages typically interact badly with C; and I'd rather not touch C, like, at all. 20:04:39 Almost everything interacts well enough with C 20:05:22 You're wrong there. 20:05:39 alise_: And really, (a) and (b) are premature optimization. Get your shit straight first and then wring all the speed you can out of it 20:05:42 Maybe I should just write it in Oberon. 20:05:43 -!- alise_ has left (?). 20:05:45 -!- alise_ has joined. 20:05:48 Deewiant: But, but Fungicide. 20:06:08 Fungicide won't do you any good if you can't get through Mycology 20:06:14 True. 20:06:24 Bleh. 20:06:37 Most likely you're going to have to semi-rewrite it at some point anyway if you're planning on doing it properly :-P 20:06:48 Keyword semi... 20:06:58 Still... SML /does/ have the perfect module system... 20:07:02 Put Fungespace in that... 20:08:11 lol, from an SML benchmark: 20:08:12 fun C f x y = f y x 20:08:21 we're so fast we put combinators in our benchmarks and don't even fucking care! 20:08:28 (it was just an implementation of GoL) 20:08:44 To be fair, if the compiler can't optimize away flip it's rather poor :-P 20:09:02 True. And MLton is a whole-program optimising compiler that produces slippin' good code. 20:09:37 Someone oughta write Befunge in Prolog. :-) 20:09:54 There are some Prolog fanatics that won't program in anything else. 20:12:53 Eh. 20:13:09 Deewiant: Writing a Mycology-passing interpreter is not really that hard, is it? Since you guys have figured out most of the work. 20:13:54 It shouldn't be particularly difficult, no. 20:14:04 So I can always write an ML one then write one in another language. 20:14:14 Quite. 20:14:58 Mycology? 20:16:06 Sgeo: Deewiant's comprehensive Befunge wondersuite of tests & trinkets. 20:16:37 Deewiant: Oh, I maybe should've mentioned; I found a rather amusing Octave bug recently, http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/index.php?29465 20:16:48 Being a preliminary Befunge-93 examination, a compleat & well-regarded Befunge-98 crunch-suite of all the odds & ends one expects in the Befunge-98 business, & a test suite of that most feral of fingerprints, TRDS. 20:17:19 fizzie: That's odd indeed :-P 20:21:16 byebye, be back soon 20:21:51 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:25 You're wrong there. <-- indeed. For example Brainfuck doesn't 20:25:36 and what about the old LISP machines? 20:25:59 A few examples against an "[a]lmost everything" does not me a wrong make 20:26:20 Deewiant, true. Was that mathematical "almost all"? 20:26:52 Deewiant: You *could* reformulate it as something like "if it interacts well with some other language, odds are good it does it well with C", though. (I'm sure there's exceptions to that, too, but it didn't say "all".) 20:27:21 Deewiant, also I don't think my lawn mover interacts well with C 20:27:32 (you forgot to restrict yourself to programming languages) 20:27:36 fizzie, what about VHDL? 20:27:50 AnMaster: What does it interact well with, then? 20:28:06 fizzie, memory circuits perhaps? 20:28:11 That's not a language. 20:28:14 fizzie, true 20:28:24 fizzie, what about verilog? I have no idea if you can mix them 20:28:50 but presumably you can use two FPGAs one programmed in VHDL and one in Verilog and make them communicate 20:29:42 Yes, well, that's a bit of a different thing. You could have two separately running programs written in different language that communicate over a pipe; I wouldn't quite say that's some FFI-like integration. 20:29:53 true 20:29:59 fizzie, it could be RPC though 20:30:04 which is kind of similar 20:30:24 fizzie, for FPGAs that would be like a co-processor I guess 20:31:37 If you want a real exception, I'm sure there's some low-levelish languages that "interact well" with assembly -- letting you do inline asm and such -- but don't have any special convenience features for interacting with code written in C. (Not that it typically would be very difficult if you can do inline asm.) 20:31:48 heh 20:33:37 You could also claim that Java interacts better with C++ than C, because writing JNI bits is syntactically a bit less ugly for C++, though the difference is not large. 20:34:06 fizzie, does JNI allow you to call unmodified C++ code? 20:35:22 No. Well, yes. Well, it depends on what you mean by that. JNI methods need to be specifically written to be callable from Java, but of course you can call unmodified C++ code from them. But it doesn't quite work so that you could use C++ bits without some manual glue. 20:35:48 Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone's written automation for that alread.y 20:36:21 fizzie, I mean something like calling something in libc or libstdc++ from java with no in-between C/C++ wrapper 20:37:12 Well, no, it doesn't do that. 20:37:12 fizzie, there are after all several ways to do FFI. One is to give you a special C API to interface with the app you want. The other one is to allow describing the foreign function completely in the non-C language. 20:37:21 I don't know which is most common 20:38:04 I think C# and such does the latter 20:38:21 at least I remember using a extremely low level opengl wrapper in C# once 20:38:33 Haskell uses the latter, right? 20:38:48 not sure about python, does it provide the latter as well as the former? 20:38:52 I know it provides the former at least 20:39:01 Actually, Python does provide the latter 20:39:03 erlang provides mostly the former. 20:39:04 See the ctypes module 20:39:20 Sgeo, ah never used that. Only used the C API for embedding python 20:39:42 * Sgeo wonders if Half-Life will work on this machine 20:40:14 Sgeo, you know that is no VR right? 20:40:15 ;P 20:40:42 lol 20:41:13 Gforth has a FFI that's close to the latter part, with a twist. You declare C functions using the "c-function" word, but it also allows you to use "\c" prefix in front of a line to write actual C code. Then it uses gcc to compile all \c lines and wrapper functions (using the usual gforth stack-passing conventions and such) for each c-function declaration, so that you can start to use those just like Forth words. 20:41:49 heh 20:42:41 fizzie, I don't require the latter to provide a 100% mapping of weird C types. Managing a majority of the cases is enough to be considered valid for that category 20:42:42 It's a bit kludgy, like everything else there. 20:42:48 "In order to work, this C interface invokes GCC at run-time and uses dynamic linking. If these features are not available, there are other, less convenient and less portable C interfaces in lib.fs and oldlib.fs. These interfaces are mostly undocumented and mostly incompatible with each other and with the documented C interface; you can find some examples for the lib.fs interface in lib.fs." 20:43:00 (for example: handling structs but perhaps not intricate details of padding related to bitfields) 20:43:17 (or not supporting varargs) 20:43:38 (at least on x86_64 iirc varargs can be somewhat gnarly) 20:43:59 (even llvm doesn't support it without manual help from the code gen, as is done by C compilers) 20:45:33 WHY DOES STEAM KEEP CRASHING? 20:46:27 Maybe you need a some sort of safety valve there? 20:46:57 lol 20:47:41 The Visual Studio debugger is complaining about uncaught exception, but Steam's still working 20:47:46 If I respond, Steam will die 20:47:47 Try adding something like a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Proportional-Safety_Valve.jpg (disclaimer: I have no clue about steam engineering, but it looks impressive enough.) 20:49:25 I wonder if it has something to do with IE8 20:50:17 Try adding something like a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Proportional-Safety_Valve.jpg (disclaimer: I have no clue about steam engineering, but it looks impressive enough.) <-- tag it with "should be svg" ;) 20:52:22 Here's another silly problem: the third monitor I have is 1280x1024 tft, rotated 90 degrees; for some reason it can't remember xrandr settings right, so I need to "xrandr --screen 2 --output DVI-0 --rotate left" manually. 20:52:22 After I do this, the region on the left side that normally lets the mouse cursor pass through to other screens is not updated, so only the 1024 upper pixels let the mouse go through; the lowest 256 are a wall. 20:52:22 Whenever I have the mouse on the lowest part of that screen, I always get it stuck there for a moment before remembering to go up a bit before trying to leave the screen. 20:53:31 fizzie, heh 20:53:35 fizzie, that's crazy 20:53:54 I should've made the bot description field in the AI tournament participant submission form non-optional; again out of the 32 bots only 7 have bothered to give any sort of description as to what they've done. 20:54:02 And one of those 7 is just "well..." 20:54:15 fizzie, haha 20:54:35 And one is "War... War never changes.", a Fallout reference; the name of the bot is "ydinsota", which is Finnish for "nuclear war". 20:55:00 And in fact they seem to be spectacularly un-descriptive for the most part. 20:55:10 "Canada is a bot that fights fair, no dirty tricks." 20:55:24 "King Hippo": "I have my weakness. But I won't tell you! Ha Ha Ha!" 20:56:07 And "Beware of the wombat!" 20:56:17 fizzie, is the last one a reference? 20:56:37 Well, it's a reference to the bot name, which is "Wombat". 20:56:48 ah 20:56:52 Together they might be referring something else, not sure. 20:57:07 fizzie, "beware of the dog" I guess 20:57:24 * L6 WOMBAT (Weapon Of Magnesium, Battalion, Anti-Tank), a British recoilless rifle 20:57:24 * Women's Mountain Bike and Tea Society (WOMBATS), a cycling group founded by Jacquie Phelan 20:57:24 * Worldwide Observatory Of Malicious Behaviors and Attack Threats, an FP7 research project on cyberattack data gathering and threat analysis [1] 20:57:24 * Waste Of Money, Brains And Time, usually referred to a project. An example is the $99 PC from the movie The First $20 Million Is Always the Hardest. 20:57:33 Wikipedia's acronym expansions for WOMBAT. 20:57:44 It could be that last one. :p 20:58:05 http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew <-- release is scheduled for 12 April, so they don't have a lot of time to fix that up in 20:58:36 Fix what? 20:58:57 Deewiant, that they have no newlines in there for example? 20:59:18 "New SSAUpdater and MachineSSAUpdater classes for unstructured ssa updating, changed jump threading, GVN, etc to use it which simplified them and speed them up. Combiner-AA improvements, why not on by default? Pre-regalloc tail duplication x86 sibcall optimization New LSR with full strength reduction mode The most awesome sext / zext optimization pass. ? The ARM backend now has good support for ARMv4 20:59:18 backend (tested on StrongARM hardware), previously only supported ARMv4T and newer. Defaults to RTTI off, packagers should build with make REQUIRE_RTTI=1. CondProp pass removed (functionality merged into jump threading). " and so on 20:59:21 and the * ... 20:59:26 under most entries 20:59:35 Oh, you just meant that page 20:59:38 Deewiant, well yes 20:59:46 I thought you were referring to it for the release date 20:59:59 Deewiant, nah they are on the main page 21:00:23 MST3k time 21:00:31 MST3k? 21:00:46 The release date is somewhat in fluctuation anyway 21:00:50 Since there are unfixed regressions 21:00:51 also I just found a new use for a laptop screen. To somewhat block/reduce the noise of a cd drive behind it 21:01:28 (desktop cd/dvd drive whines slightly when playing a cd, even at the low speeds of audio CDs) 21:01:36 (especially annoying for audio cds) 21:01:43 Deewiant, hrrm 21:03:18 Deewiant, link to those? 21:03:20 My DVD drive does not "whine slightly" when playing audio CDs; it makes quite a lot of noise. I've just flac'd our very few audio CDs so that I don't need to actually play them. 21:03:44 fizzie, except that would be more than all my harddrives together I calculated half a year ago 21:03:59 the average compression radio of flac seems to be ~50% for classical music 21:04:23 Mystery Science Theater 3000 21:04:41 AnMaster: See llvm-dev mailing list... 21:04:51 Deewiant, link to that ;P 21:04:55 I don't have a link 21:05:06 I don't use the archives 21:05:15 It's around 50% for our non-classical music too, but like I said, we have a very small set of CDs. 21:05:16 If you just want the bugs, Google llvm 2.7 blocker or something like that 21:05:30 ah you subscribe to it 21:05:30 heh 21:05:35 No, I use gmane 21:05:43 well that have a link too 21:05:45 Over NNTP 21:05:57 Deewiant, you know that is almost like gopher 21:06:00 in rarity 21:06:04 NNTP? 21:06:05 (You can stick 2000 reasonable-sized audio CDs on a terabyte drive, though; they seem to be around half a gig each here.) 21:06:08 Not really 21:06:10 I didn't even know they *had* nntp 21:06:15 NNTP is a lot more common than Gopher 21:06:16 Deewiant, well, for anything but usenet 21:06:21 Maybe 21:06:22 and usenet is still somewhat more common yes 21:06:56 Our school's student association has their own newsserver which is commonly used for at least job offers and the like 21:07:11 It does have a web frontend these days, though. 21:07:30 http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=6586 <-- just one? 21:07:37 that is still open 21:08:07 Yeah, the situation improved in the past few days 21:08:26 ROFL. One of the rifts on "Invasion of the Neptune Men" had something like "Featuring Santa" 21:08:31 It used to be used quite a lot for actual studying-and-course-news stuff, but nowadays there's only one officially sanctioned web-bortal way of communicating. 21:08:35 Guess where Santa lives according to Futurama.. 21:08:43 (Which, of course, doesn't let the students post anything...) 21:09:06 Many courses still refer to their NG but nothing ever gets posted 21:09:12 fizzie, web-bortal? 21:09:16 wep-bortal 21:09:31 Deewiant, not WPA these days? 21:09:33 AnMaster: "The study and teaching portal Noppa". 21:09:42 fizzie, well, I meant the spelling 21:09:48 Oh. 21:09:50 "The study and teaching bortal Noppa" 21:09:58 Well, it is "a handy tool for both students and lecturers", so who am I to argue. 21:09:59 Deewiant, yes 21:10:10 a handy bool yes 21:10:15 either true or false 21:10:29 Admittedly the RSS feeds of newsposts is a good feature, as are the email notifications; but it's all so unidirectional. 21:10:31 law of excluded middle is always in effect there 21:10:46 fizzie, newsbosts you mean 21:10:55 and botifications 21:11:12 Yes, why not. 21:11:24 :D 21:11:41 err I mean :b of course 21:12:11 Also it sends the email notifications with the poster's email as the SMTP sender, so every time I make a newspost, I get a bounce from one guy's over-quota mailbox. 21:12:56 Actually that was last year; this year I get a "Unable to deliver message to the following recipients, because the message was forwarded more than the maximum allowed times." bounce, it seems. 21:13:28 fizzie, hah 21:13:51 fizzie, so it didn't deliver any message? 21:13:57 or just to some? 21:14:09 (I mean, did it list every one in that list?) 21:14:17 No, just the one broken one. 21:14:26 The other students presumably get their messages just fine. 21:14:59 Or maybe not! 21:15:01 did you try contacting IT support? 21:16:18 Deewiant: I did get a real reply to the newspost from another student, so at least one other person got their message. 21:16:28 Maybe he was the only one 21:16:40 You don't know! 21:16:58 And the mail-loopy address is not one of our university's; it's some custom email address. Nobba lets you register whatever you want as the ebb-bmail address there. 21:17:06 Or is that "abbress"? 21:17:15 fizzie, baddres 21:17:18 err 21:17:20 baddress 21:17:21 even 21:17:21 babbles 21:17:23 bad dress 21:18:06 which reminds me, I should transfer those lecture notes pictures from my phone over bluetooth sometime soon 21:18:07 32 returns from 52 groups now that it's ~45 minutes until deadline. 21:18:17 Deewiant: Did you finish whatever it was you were doing? 21:18:27 Yes, a bit less than an hour ago 21:18:33 * AnMaster waits for anyone to ask how those are related 21:18:38 Good, good; just thought I'd remind. 21:18:43 :-) 21:18:51 AnMaster: A lecturer in a bad dress? 21:18:55 fizzie, no 21:18:56 Incidentally, this was the third of three such exercises 21:19:12 The first time around I did it a day or two early and then forgot to return it until a day after the deadline 21:19:30 Fortunately the course personnel were nice and didn't deduct any points 21:19:53 Anyway, it is thus clearly a better idea to do stuff immediately before the deadline 21:19:55 I did one coursework thing a month before deadline, then forgot to return it and returned it a day late. 21:20:04 fizzie, bad dress → badly dressed people → university in general → you → panoramas → images → lecture notes 21:20:05 Yep 21:20:16 fizzie, convoluted yes 21:20:48 "badly dressed people → university in general" is a bit of a leap. 21:20:59 fizzie, well, CS people then 21:21:08 You stereotypist. 21:21:14 I'm not a badly-dressed person :( 21:21:34 fizzie, well I'm a CS student myself. I'm not badly dressed if the average isn't I guess. 21:21:51 Gregor: Which reminds me: I chose your hat a few days back, did you abide? 21:22:00 Deewiant: I always abide. 21:22:07 Awesome 21:22:18 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30595531&l=c65d70c86e&id=1055580469 <-- my usual style of dress 21:22:29 AnMaster: We had two very well-dressed folks from the Finnish equivalent of your Piratpartiet talking on the "law in network society" course just yesterday. Admittedly they weren't CS students, though. 21:22:30 Makes me wonder about your profession 21:22:48 fizzie: Did they say anything interesting? 21:22:56 Makes me wonder about your orientation (sexual)! 21:23:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:23:07 You wonder about the strangest things 21:23:33 And wonder them in oddly-parenthesized ways. 21:24:06 fizzie, law students tends to be *very* well dressed 21:24:15 Deewiant: Well, they said the same things what they always say, which I guess are interesting but not exactly novel if you've heard them before. It was one of the authors of that freely-available book, http://www.barrikadi.fi/pamfletit/jokapiraatinoikeus-0 (Finnish only). 21:24:33 Gregor: Which reminds me: I chose your hat a few days back, did you abide? <-- which one? 21:24:33 AnMaster: They weren't exactly law students, either. One of them was a student of history, and I have no idea what the other one was. 21:24:41 Right. 21:24:43 I like his fezes 21:24:56 I can't actually remember :-S 21:25:09 Deewiant, he has so many weird ones ;) 21:25:15 I remember I tried to pick an abnormal one but I can't remember what I settled on 21:25:31 AnMaster: fezzes* 21:25:46 Fezi 21:25:48 :P 21:25:55 Fezzies. 21:25:58 X-D 21:25:59 fizzies 21:26:04 Deewiant, ah 21:26:06 There's only one of those. 21:26:28 fizzie, no. Sometimes I have seen fizzien here too 21:26:40 There's quite many places on the interwebs that sell "bath fizzies". 21:26:44 :-D 21:26:48 * AnMaster prefers to read the word as fizzien rather than fizzie n 21:26:54 I want a bath fizzie >: ) 21:27:21 Gregor, what do you actually do for work 21:27:31 Hmm, what happened today O_o 21:27:32 Gregor: We've been partial to such products from Lush (lush.com), but I'm not sure if they have them around your neighbourhood. 21:27:43 60 packages to upgrade 21:27:43 Deewiant, try clog? 21:27:50 oh that 21:27:55 Deewiant, be careful. soname change 21:28:04 AnMaster: I guess I'm a research scientist. 21:28:08 soname? 21:28:20 iirc that is the name for 21:28:36 libfoo.so.1 vs libfoo.so.2 21:28:59 Gregor, ah that explains it. Those kinds of hat would only work at university ;P 21:29:12 hats* 21:29:14 libdrm or what being the actual change? 21:29:48 AnMaster: More generally I'm a doctoral student, but that's not what I do "for work" :P 21:30:33 Gregor, I vote for this attitude on said day: http://codu.org/hats/BrownFedora-sm.jpg 21:30:33 ;) 21:30:57 choosemyhat.com is for hats, not attitudes :P 21:31:00 Deewiant, libdrm? 21:31:07 Deewiant, iirc it was some kerberos stuff 21:31:19 at least ssh broke during the upgrade with some error about old soname krb thing not found 21:31:25 I just saw libdrm go up a version number 21:31:31 And most other things go up a release number 21:31:32 Deewiant, well maybe that too 21:31:49 Deewiant, well libkrb messed up for me for a bit there 21:32:07 Gregor, still, that is an awesome attitude on that picture :P 21:32:18 I don't appear to have libkrb installed 21:32:29 Deewiant, huh, here it is a dep of sshd? 21:32:56 heimdal did go up a version number 21:33:02 I thought you meant a package by that name 21:33:05 Deewiant, well it is libkrb 21:33:10 libkrb5 even 21:33:16 didn't remember exact name 21:33:22 /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.26 is owned by heimdal 1.3.2-1 21:33:25 it was .25 before 21:33:29 meaning ABI breakage generally 21:34:06 Argh 21:34:10 Deewiant, what? 21:34:17 Now catalyst depends on openssl-compatibility which only exists for i686 21:34:23 Required By : alpine cvs evolution-data-server gnome-vfs gtk2 kdelibs libcups librpcsecgss libtirpc neon openssh smbclient 21:34:30 Deewiant, what the heck is catalyst? 21:34:33 Deewiant, and: file a bug 21:34:50 catalyst is AMD's display driver 21:34:54 pacman -Ss catalyst 21:34:55 I doubt I need to 21:34:56 returns nothing? 21:34:59 It's in AUR 21:35:02 oh okay 21:35:10 Deewiant, file a comment on that page then so it can be fixed still 21:35:11 It was dropped from community last summer IIRC 21:35:43 AnMaster: There's a comment on openssl-compatibility already 21:35:46 http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=36308 21:35:57 okay 21:36:03 Unsurprisingly enough 21:36:05 can't see why a display driver needs openssl 21:36:25 Except the md5 seems wrong 21:36:38 mhm 21:36:47 Or it's using the wrong one 21:36:50 I don't think my CARCH is set 21:36:54 I've had problems with that before 21:37:48 AnMaster: Any idea where the $CARCH comes from into a PKGBUILD? 21:39:01 Bloody catalyst updates... I hate having to always mess with the PKGBUILDs 21:39:53 I need to install the OpenGL bits (I think that's what they are) into the 32-bit chroot but it doesn't quite work cleanly since it installs all bits by default, some of which depend on xorg and the kernel (both of which aren't present in the chroot...) 21:40:13 Deewiant, eh. No idea 21:40:37 So typically: mess with the PKGBUILD, doesn't work since I missed something. Try again, having lost the changes made last time. Repeat a couple of iterations until it installs. 21:40:41 Deewiant, doesn't it use split kernel/user space drivers? 21:40:52 Just one package 21:42:32 Deewiant, ah, nvidia drivers splits it 21:42:37 and iirc there are lib32 ones even 21:43:20 Argh, and the damn pacman update made me lose the changes without even getting a chance to try the PKGBUILD once 21:43:34 Deewiant, what? 21:43:43 Deewiant, trying what pkgbuild? 21:43:47 catalyst's 21:43:56 The one I'm manually deleting stuff from 21:44:18 how did pacman make you lose it? 21:44:39 pacman update changed PKGEXT from .pkg.tar.gz to .pkg.tar.xz 21:45:27 Deewiant, yes and? 21:45:29 I think the pacman that was trying to upgrade the catalyst was still using .tar.gz while the pacman used to create the package used .tar.xz 21:45:35 can't you use the old ones still? 21:45:44 Anyway, it complained about not finding a .tar.gz when it had made a .tar.xz 21:45:55 FATAL: Could not open /lib/modules/2.6.33-deewiant/modules.dep.temp for writing: No such file or directory 21:45:58 Yay, it worked 21:46:02 Deewiant, did it? 21:46:05 Yes, it did 21:46:13 FATAL is usually a bad indication 21:46:14 I know there's no modules.dep in the chroot, doesn't matter :-P 22:24:57 Deewiant: The game is on: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2010.txt 22:25:03 Deewiant: Might be more interesting if you were participating. :p 22:25:49 And if one of those were mine. :-P 22:25:57 I like the NPEs 22:26:22 Those results always come fastest. :p 22:26:28 :-D 22:26:49 NPE? 22:27:03 AIARCH: RED player crashed: Uncaught exception: java.lang.NullPointerException 22:27:18 heh 22:27:28 fizzie, they didn't test it very well? 22:27:40 fizzie, how fast is that report updated? 22:27:42 Most likely. Will be interesting to see if it crashes all other games. 22:27:52 It's a cron job, once per hour. 22:28:11 fizzie, how long is one game permitted to run? 22:28:14 The "E P" in the result table is supposed to read "BLUE PLAYER" vertically, it just gets clipped a bit. After all 45 bots have been seen, the table'll be quite a bit larger, then it'll fit. 22:28:27 One hour of thinking time for both participants. 22:28:38 I'm running 33 games simultaneously, though. 22:28:51 (11 quad-core workstations, 3 simultaneous matches each.) 22:29:11 fizzie, so it is in user time? or user + sys? 22:29:20 Wall clock time on random people's workstations? :-P 22:29:31 Deewiant, that would be unreliable 22:29:31 Deewiant: No, RLIMIT_CPU time. 22:29:50 man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz: ignoring bogus filename 22:29:50 man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3p.gz: ignoring bogus filename 22:29:50 man: warning: /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3p.gz: ignoring bogus filename 22:29:50 huh 22:29:50 Meh, CPU time sucks, you can't parallelize 22:29:55 * AnMaster wonders what the heck that is 22:30:03 AnMaster: That's been going on a while. 22:30:10 Dunno what it is either. 22:30:25 Deewiant: You can't parallelize anyway, the Java security policy for the tournament mode is an all-deny one, so it won't let you create any threads. :p 22:30:50 $ pacman -Qo /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz 22:30:50 /usr/share/man/man3x/ulimit.3.gz is owned by man-pages 3.24-1 22:30:52 fizzie: Meh! 22:30:53 $ pacman -Qo /usr/share/man/man3/ulimit.3.gz 22:30:53 /usr/share/man/man3/ulimit.3.gz is owned by man-pages 3.24-1 22:30:55 huh 22:31:17 Deewiant: What would you need threads for, anyway, except to get some annoying nondeterminism in your move-search? 22:31:34 Searching multiple branches simultaneously, of course 22:31:43 fizzie, what does it allow then? Some standard library funcs I presume? 22:32:00 But the point is that I need to be able to run multiple matches simultaneously, otherwise I'll be here all week. 22:32:03 "Some" as in almost all of the vast Java standard libs 22:32:11 Sure, sure 22:32:21 Yes; IO in general is not allowed, though. 22:32:45 I've special-cased the System.out/.err streams to discard writes so that it won't crash if someone leaves some "debugging printfs" in. :p 22:32:48 Deewiant, fizzie, ooh I just got an idea for the future version of this. When quantum computers become commonplace that is 22:33:00 And you could do some "user-space" (well, inside-vm) threads, though I wouldn't want to start guessing how much overhead a Java implementation of that would have. 22:33:48 fizzie, doesn't java implement it's own user space threads then? 22:33:52 by default I mean 22:34:03 * AnMaster points out things like erlang does 22:34:13 By default I think Java threads are done using platform threads, pthreads on posixy things and so on. 22:34:18 Though that's just my guess. 22:34:27 well erlang uses m:n basically 22:34:29 In any case you can't use those because of the security policy. :p 22:34:36 mapping it on a number of system threads called schedulers 22:34:47 Updated the report, now there's enough games in the table so that the "blue player" text is visible too. 22:35:09 synaesthesia seems to be doing pretty well so far. 22:35:13 fizzie, what is Ti? 22:35:23 Result table: (Bl = blue wins, Re = red wins, Ti = tie) 22:35:30 oh there 22:35:31 above 22:35:38 had scrolled down a bit too far to see it 22:35:53 fizzie, does it say how long each game ran for? 22:36:17 fizzie, what does AIARCH stand for? 22:36:22 AnMaster: In the actual results report, yes; not in this plaintext status report. 22:36:58 Report generated at 2010-04-10 00:33:03. <-- you should have waited 30 seconds 22:37:20 It's not such a bad time now, either; aa:bb:ab, after all. 22:37:53 I guess I could actually add game length in wall-clock time, e.g. in parentheses after the move count. 22:42:36 fizzie, how long does that report take to generate? 22:42:42 fizzie, why does it need to be a cron job 22:42:49 I mean it could be push on game finished 22:43:05 fizzie, or you could provide live coverage :D 22:43:11 like webtv or such 22:44:12 1 2.00 0.09-2.00 1.7 jaautio (+1, =0, -0) 22:44:12 2 1.73 0.86-1.86 0.5 synaesthesia (+9, =1, -1) 22:44:15 also that looks weird 22:44:28 fizzie, why doesn't the second one score higher than the first? 22:44:44 It's normalized by the number of games played so far. 22:44:48 hm 22:44:50 okay 22:44:57 The first one has won all its games, while the other one has losses too. 22:45:10 The "0.09-2.00" is the range of possible scores still achievable for that bot. 22:45:12 the first one played far fewer 22:45:22 Well, so far. 22:45:39 well yes 22:45:51 The order is not exactly "fair"; it starts with all matches of the bot that happened to be first on the list. 22:45:58 -!- alise has joined. 22:46:13 fizzie, didn't you have two older non-participating bots during previous years? 22:46:18 As for updating more often, there was some problems with sqlite's locking; I write each move of each game (and with 33 simultaneous games, there's quite a lot of those coming in) into a sqlite db, and the report-generation reads the same file. So I have the cron-job do a filesystem-level "cp" copy of the database file and then generate the report on that; it might not be quite safe for the report-generation, but at least it won't dist 22:46:19 urb the actual tournament progress. 22:46:28 so i learned about a new grammar formalism last night 22:46:39 I haven't added those in yet; I'll run the "official" games first, then the nice-to-know extras later. 22:46:50 ah 22:46:53 And there were seven non-participating ones last year, I think. 22:47:01 fizzie, seven ones? 22:47:03 huh 22:47:04 Top-5 from 2008, one from the Scheme era, and the randombot. 22:47:09 ah 22:47:38 The report seems to have autoupdated now. 22:47:39 fizzie, are they still in java btw? 22:47:44 Yes. 22:47:54 oh wait you said java security above 22:47:54 meh 22:47:59 This time there weren't even any non-Java JVM languages, I think. Or at least no-one has asked about it. 22:48:03 fizzie, didn't you talk about switching to python? 22:48:03 its called "sewing grammars" 22:48:12 fizzie, and is that allowed? 22:48:24 hah, people are finally ignoring augur entirely 22:48:30 alise shut your face :| 22:48:32 AnMaster: It is, though it's not exactly supported by the course. 22:48:36 augur, ssssh, keep quiet, we are following http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2010.txt 22:48:39 it is in progress 22:48:52 ;P 22:48:53 I think we've just found the #esoteric equivalent of the Super Bowl 22:48:58 alise, :D 22:49:10 "suxbot"; that's an optimistic name. 22:49:35 alise, we just need fizzie to switch to postgresql so it can query real time updates 22:49:44 since sqlite locking yeah has it's problems 22:49:59 AnMaster: And they switched some programming courses from Java to Python, but I see no reason to do so for this tournament. Not that I trust Java's sandbox, but running arbitrary Python code sounds even worse, at least without some additional complicating layers of isolation there. 22:50:15 chroot 22:50:17 fizzie, jyton? 22:50:39 or whatever it was called 22:50:40 jython 22:51:38 which one was ironsomething? 22:51:38 oh .NET 22:51:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:51:51 fizzie, how comes that table at the top is mostly white? 22:51:54 I mean 22:52:04 you said many games were played at once? 22:52:19 but does it run synaesthesia against all the other ones first? 22:52:24 rather than in a random order? 22:52:47 fizzie, what is that n that must be positive btw? 22:52:52 (as RED) WINS against suxbot: 53 moves, AIARCH: BLUE player crashed: Uncaught exception: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: n must be positive 22:52:53 in there 22:54:18 fizzie, any estimate on how long it may take? 22:54:32 fizzie, also another idea: bot announcing the progress in here 22:54:33 ;P 22:55:16 Deewiant: chroot is not exactly a non-root operation. I've been doing this with about ~no support from the Officials. 22:55:42 Same goes for a real SQL server; I'd use one if they had it conveniently installed, but I don't exactly want to install PostgreSQL in my home directory. 22:55:54 "I love games, even though I am not very good at them. Chess, and even Checkers, are way too complicated, so my favorite is the "children's" game Connect-Four." 22:55:55 --Zeilberger 22:56:04 it's because they haven't found a finite perfect chess AI yet 22:56:08 fizzie: You can always request it 22:56:33 Deewiant: I'd really rather not bother them; they seem overworked enough as-is. 22:57:00 Is you guys' university good? I should come and terrorise you. 22:57:31 Surprisingly, that first sentence is actually the correct way to phrase that with "you guys". 22:57:35 "about ~no" 22:57:43 didn't alise define ~ to be ¬ before? 22:57:50 AnMaster: no law of the excluded middle; it's not the same as "about" 22:57:52 Actually I should come and terrorise you anyway 22:57:53 so I guess you had full support from them fizzie 22:58:27 alise, ah but I use classical logic and consider LEM perfectly fine most of the time. 22:58:42 alise, I'm not constructivist 22:58:43 Yeah, but you're an anti-computer whorebag. 22:58:45 So there. 22:58:50 alise, what? 22:58:56 how does that follow? 22:59:03 THE FOUR-COLOUR THEOREM DIN'T GET PROVED WITH DOUBLE NEGATION BEYOTCH 22:59:08 WE CONSTRUCTED US SOME DAMN FINE MAPS 22:59:20 alise, well yes and? 22:59:21 AND WE COMPUTED THE FUCK OUT OF THEM! 22:59:27 I never said constructivist methods doesn't work 22:59:50 http://www.swfme.com/view/1046212 oh my god the pain 22:59:57 I just think that non-constructive ones are fine as well. 22:59:58 As for the IRC bot announcing results, we did talk about that on the course channel last year, I just completely forgot about it; I did mention it not 15 minutes ago. It would probably be better to put it on the course channel instead of here, though. 23:00:13 fizzie, could be on both 23:00:24 fizzie, and there is a course channel on freenode? or elsewhere? 23:00:34 IRCnet presumably 23:00:38 AnMaster: I don't want to try adding multi-server support in a Funge-98 bot. (What, so I should write it with something else?) 23:00:41 Deewiant, why? 23:00:45 IRCnet, and it's mostly Finnish. 23:00:50 Because that's where things tend to be 23:00:50 That's where all our course channels are. 23:01:01 Force of tradition and all. 23:01:09 fizzie, also it should be possible with an external multiplexer currently 23:01:27 AnMaster: Incidentally, if you want to see all bots that should appear in the report sooner or later, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai/list.cgi has a list. 23:01:29 I thought IRCnet was next to dead? 23:01:35 ehird@dinky:~$ mlton 23:01:36 MLton 20070826 (built Fri Oct 05 23:09:43 2007 on yellow) 23:01:40 $ 23:01:43 I /may/ be needing a REPL some time, MLton. 23:01:55 alise, what is mlton? 23:02:03 AnMaster: 74955 concurrent users isn't actually "dead". 23:02:10 fizzie, what with it lacking services and so on 23:02:11 A whole-program optimising Standard ML compiler that produces uber-efficient code. 23:02:12 MLton is a compiler, not an interpreter 23:02:20 Deewiant: So's SBCL; it has a REPL. 23:02:25 Admittedly SBCL doesn't do the whole-program magic. 23:02:26 Shush 23:02:35 REPLs are below the dignity of something as awesome as MLton 23:02:39 Still; MLton is incompatible with other MLs to some degree, so I don't feel good about using another interpreter as a REPL. 23:02:48 -!- jcp has joined. 23:02:52 alise, write it in the common subset? 23:03:07 AnMaster: There is no "common subset", some implementations just suck at the standard. 23:03:17 The servicelessness is a matter of choice, not a sign of deadness. Though certainly it has gotten a bit quieter lately. 23:03:22 And OS interaction will always be slightly untransportable from one implementation to another without strict standardisation. 23:03:33 Deewiant: STALIN is cooler than MLton. 23:03:42 The http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top100.php user-count rankings still put it as the largest real IRC network; for obvious reasons I don't count QuakeNet. 23:03:47 STALIN just takes your code and beats the fuck out of it and spits out superhumanly good C. 23:03:51 Fuck yeah. 23:03:53 alise, well follow the standard then, excluding the parts that very few support? 23:03:54 as in 23:04:02 a reasonably widely supported subset 23:04:04 You know what, I've decided that talking to AnMaster is fruitless. 23:04:10 At least right now. 23:04:11 alise, why? 23:04:20 Because you keep saying the same stupid thing. 23:04:42 (I'm not sure why the top-100 page doesn't list freenode, though; the top-10 page does.) 23:04:47 no you don't even make sense 23:04:52 now* 23:05:07 fizzie, has any bot hit 2 so far? 23:05:12 fizzie, I mean 23:05:18 when the results are finished for a given year 23:05:27 Anyway, I think with MLton I could approach the speed of cfunge using the same implementation techniques. 23:05:39 fizzie, oh btw is there any perfect play in that game? 23:05:59 AnMaster: None of the officials, but the 2008 winner got a perfect score in the 2009 tournament. 23:06:02 alise: Only approach cfunge? Psh. :-P 23:06:08 Doing sane macroöptimisation like Deewiant... I could easily surpass it. 23:06:14 Deewiant: I said "using the same implementation techniques". 23:06:15 fizzie, heh 23:06:22 And no, the game's not solved. 23:06:26 alise: Yes, you did. Psh. 23:06:36 If you're essentially implementing retarded algorithms, then you can't beat retarded inline ASM. 23:06:51 Deewiant: What, you think MLton regularly beats microprofiled ASM? :-) 23:07:05 alise, anyway what with the t issue fixed now in cfunge it is way closer 23:07:08 You think AnMaster's asm is any good? ;-) 23:07:15 Deewiant, I don't use much asm 23:07:15 at all 23:07:17 .... 23:07:21 Deewiant: No, but I think he's tried every possible string of ASM to find the fastest. 23:07:22 "much at all"? 23:07:41 I may need to poke at cfunge and see what it's doing. Maybe beat it into a pulp. :P 23:07:46 I think cfunge is pretty shitty code TBQH. 23:08:10 Deewiant, as in, one function, the one that fills the static funge space. Which uses SSE non-temporal stores to avoid a rather large "read block into cache first" hit 23:08:29 when it fills it with the space pattern for empty 23:08:33 alise: Yes, but I'm curious. 23:08:35 "Hey, let's implement über-naïve algorithms. Now, let's unroll the fucking loops! Oh shit it doesn't match the standard. Let's copy from CCBI. Now: ASM time!" 23:08:44 Knuth would weep. 23:08:49 alise, you are just silly you know 23:09:04 alise, "Oh shit it doesn't match the standard." hasn't happend so far like that 23:09:05 über-naïve -- now there's a loanword amalgamation you don't see every day. 23:09:19 and they aren't 23:09:21 AnMaster: considering I've heard you just copy from CCBI when your shit is broken I disagree entirely 23:09:42 alise, that is an exaggeration 23:09:43 anyway, I don't care what you think as I already know you think cfunge is a perfectly innocent well-implemented, well-optimised non-CCBI-copy 23:09:51 it's none of these things but I don't really care what you think 23:09:55 like... at all 23:10:15 I have based my code on CCBI in two fingerprints, that is all basically: TURT and 3DSP. Because at the time I implemented those I didn't know very much of the underlying theory 23:10:23 like matrix math for 3DSP 23:10:28 Dude, fastcall really doesn't do that much, especially compared with better implementation. :P 23:10:54 pikhq, which variant of fastcall btw? 23:10:59 Oh, and it does *fuck-all* on inlined-functions. 23:11:28 pikhq, in gcc? well I generally use clang these days 23:11:30 so no idea 23:11:48 AnMaster: It *cannot* do anything for inlined functions. 23:11:56 pikhq, anyway I mainly target x86_64. It isn't like the inline asm is even used for x86 23:12:29 fastcall means "pass the arguments in registers". A static inline function means "this function is essentially a safe macro." 23:12:31 pikhq, well, that would depend on register allocation. After all inlining means copying the code for it. So fastcall would simply not apply to the inline usages 23:12:50 Yes. And I'm saying fastcall on a static inline function cannot do anything. 23:12:51 I wish ML didn't call its numbers "reals". 23:12:54 They're not really reals. 23:12:57 BUT YOU STILL DO IT. 23:12:59 pikhq, so it isn't really relevant except to the cases where it is emitted as a call 23:13:00 Call them "fakes" :P 23:13:08 Which it shouldn't be. 23:13:09 pikhq, the compiler is free to not inline static inline 23:13:27 AnMaster: Test. Your. Damned. Optimisations. 23:13:48 pikhq, Oh I certainly profiled that attribute. You think I don't profile? 23:14:11 note: AnMaster found a 0.0001s difference and thought that it was obviously his genius, not acceptable margin of error 23:14:27 pikhq, over average of 200 runs (if I remember the numbers correctly, was over a year ago) there was a 4% speedup on average iirc 23:14:50 ... fastcall on functions *without arguments*? 23:14:56 Wherein you were testing on Mycology or some such 23:15:00 It is literally impossible for that to do anything. 23:15:00 AnMaster: Cargo cult, hells yeah 23:15:17 Put the line in, run run run, wow it's faster, 4% on a program that runs almost immediately anyway! 23:15:20 This is clearly a GOOD THING! 23:15:22 pikhq, hm? It may have slipped on some such function by mistake I guess 23:15:29 pikhq, it would simply have no effect there then 23:15:57 pikhq, for example editing of code can leave such things remaining for example 23:16:27 Yes, but it still sucks. 23:16:49 pikhq, what does? An __attribute__ that happens to have no effect? 23:17:07 Yes. 23:17:12 well now I guess you sound like alise in code aesthetics 23:17:31 (btw since I think personal attacks are just irritating he is now on ignore) 23:17:40 Oh, please; because we have taste and don't just leave meaningless cruft around that will later be defended with "it makes it go faster" we're Apple-loving beauty freaks. 23:17:42 It's like having "0;" all over the place. 23:17:55 pikhq, perfectly fine. Esoteric too. 23:17:59 somewhat 23:18:02 Sure, it *doesn't do anything*, but that doesn't make it not *ugly*. 23:18:05 Personal attacks, yeah, those things that I did none of. 23:18:10 pikhq: why are you wasting your time? 23:18:13 pikhq, what about IOCCC then? 23:18:23 he doesn't even understand what a personal attack is 23:18:27 AnMaster: IOCCC is about making the ugliest, most unreadable code. 23:18:48 AnMaster: Unless you are actually trying to do that, STOP DOING THINGS THAT MAKE CODE HARDER TO READ FOR NO BENEFIT. 23:19:19 pikhq, well then I suggest you complain at ais for C-INTERCAL next time he is here 23:19:27 it's C code is sometimes quite wonderfully weird 23:19:46 pikhq, unreadable doesn't even begin to describe many parts of ick 23:19:50 pikhq: AnMaster likes to defend his code's inadequacy by half the time pointing out that LOL ESOTERIC, and the other half talking about how much he values coding standards. 23:20:03 Do you think you can reason a man out of a position he did not reason himself into? 23:20:13 pikhq, yet I haven't heard you complain about that yet. 23:20:16 AnMaster: You have fastcall on functions without arguments *everywhere*. 23:20:36 That there is *retarded* and cargo cult programming. 23:20:40 pikhq, no. I'm quite sure I don't. 23:20:54 Would you like me to start listing them? 23:21:03 pikhq, plus actually it did more than just fastcall at one point. 23:21:07 might be good to know 23:21:10 bool fungespace_create(void); 23:21:13 of course it could be cleaned up 23:21:15 void fungespace_free(void); 23:21:22 pikhq, those used to take argument 23:21:27 so I guess I forgot to update there 23:21:37 pikhq, feel free to submit a patch 23:21:56 I don't consider it high priority 23:22:00 instructionPointer * ip_create(void); 23:22:03 there are other more important issues 23:22:11 ipList* iplist_create(void); 23:22:34 pikhq, those two never took argument as far as I can recall, so accident there I guess. 23:22:41 funge_stack * stack_create(void); 23:22:52 pikhq, but listing them won't help with anything 23:22:57 what is the point of doing so 23:23:10 better submit a patch if you care that much 23:23:40 void sysinfo_cleanup(void); 23:23:43 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:23:52 pikhq, took a parameter before 23:23:54 also as I said 23:24:02 this listing is completely and utterly pointless 23:24:11 genxWriter genxNew(void); 23:24:22 Okay, screw the list. 23:24:24 pikhq, anyway, what I plan to do next is test the new speed up for the fork benchmark better. Then push it 23:24:26 after that 23:24:29 new funge space 23:24:34 probably 23:24:35 Suffice it to say *every single (void) function is fastcall*. 23:24:50 pikhq, see above though 23:24:55 pikhq: genx isn't even AnMaster's code -- clearly he's fucked with it to break it 23:24:56 pikhq, you obviously didn't read 23:25:01 pikhq, plus actually it did more than just fastcall at one point. 23:25:04 that line to be specific 23:25:23 AnMaster: EEEEW. 23:25:30 pikhq, what? 23:25:49 make sense 23:26:06 A macro that implies that it's just for fastcall doing more than that? 23:26:17 I'm taking away your C license. 23:26:24 pikhq, well it did something else for speed. I don't remember what 23:26:33 MOAAAAAAAAAR SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED 23:26:35 I'm not sure if it was ever comitted 23:26:39 or not 23:26:45 Oh, also. 23:26:45 committed* 23:26:45 FUNGE_ATTR_FAST static inline void discard_line(void) 23:26:57 alise: Speaking of suxbot, did you see how much it crashes?-) 23:26:57 pikhq, that one also used to take a parameter 23:26:58 so again 23:27:07 AnMaster: ITS STATIC INLINE. 23:27:15 fizzie: I didn't. Heh. 23:27:16 FASTCALL DIDNT DO ANYTHING WHEN IT DID. 23:27:18 pikhq, yes, but it was used in more than one place before 23:27:24 reallysuxbot: int main(){*0} 23:27:24 in fact 23:27:29 I think it still is 23:27:54 Believe it or not, GCC will still inline the shit out of static functions. 23:27:55 pikhq, there is nothing that guarantees something *will* be inlined just because of "static inline" 23:28:06 pikhq, well it didn't for me before 23:28:25 pikhq, just FYI. Complaining about frame size when some verbose parameter was on iirc 23:28:27 AnMaster: What I'm saying is you, sir, do cargo cult programming. 23:28:33 And that you should stop it. Stop it now. 23:28:59 pikhq, and I'm saying that isn't true. Due to a number of factors mentioned above 23:29:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:29:37 AnMaster: "I'm too lazy to remove useless lines of code" 23:29:43 pikhq, also I would be interested in seeing you criticising the unreadable code of ick next. That is the very least I expect from you 23:29:46 really 23:29:55 This is the sign of someone who should not be allowed near machinery more complex than a wheel. 23:30:02 pikhq, ^ 23:30:18 pikhq, next time ais is here I suggest 23:30:21 I'm sure he will like it 23:30:31 iirc the convickt code is especially bad 23:30:41 AnMaster is an expert at logical fallacy. 23:30:53 Doood 23:30:56 Wheel's are AWESOME 23:31:03 pikhq, the code for threaded intercal using setjmp()/longjmp() is also quite horrible 23:31:05 Have you ever really thought about just how brilliant the wheel is? :P 23:31:08 AnMaster: ick sucking does not mean that you have cause to suck. 23:31:09 It just means that ick also sucks. 23:31:23 pikhq, but you should certainly go complain to ais about this? 23:31:24 no? 23:31:36 And I'm going to go poke around at CIntercal. 23:31:41 pikhq: Difference: ick sucks on /purpose/. 23:31:43 It's esoteric C. 23:31:49 AnMaster's code isn't interesting-esoteric, it's just shit-esoteric. 23:31:52 also, *C-INTERCAL 23:31:55 pikhq, iirc the yuk code (debugger) was also quite messy 23:32:00 Oh, ick is *meant* to be unreadable? 23:32:15 pikhq, well, so is parts of cfunge. 23:32:15 pikhq: Well, its parser uses Perl idioms to pay homage to CLC-INTERCAL. 23:32:18 Well, then. AnMaster, your point is "ick is meant to suck therefore I can get away with sucking." 23:32:20 That's basically some of the fun :-) 23:32:33 AnMaster is just lying, his code isn't interesting-shit, it's just shit that he can't write properly so he falls back on the esoteric excuse 23:32:38 Heard it all before 23:32:38 What could be fun: C implementation that complies with the standard. Except that all the undefined and implementation defined behavor would be really funky. 23:32:43 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 23:32:50 Which can be reduced to "I'm a terrible programmer. Fuck you." 23:33:17 Ilari: AKA a DS9K implementation 23:33:21 Ilari: DeathS- what Deewiant said. 23:33:48 pikhq, unreadable code fits right into cfunge I feel. Consider the quite horribly unreadable macro stuff in lib/libghthash that double includes files to do something like C++ templates in C 23:33:59 quite a nice piece of unreadable code I feel 23:34:17 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:34:17 pikhq, well worth checking out if you like unreadable code! 23:34:22 Say, 17 bit chars, 34 bit shorts, 51 bit ints, 68 bit longs and 85 bit long longs. Or something even more crazy. 23:34:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:34:47 Ilari, doesn't char have to be a power of two in C99? 23:34:54 FUNGE_ATTR_FAST FUNGE_ATTR_NOINLINE FUNGE_ATTR_COLD FUNGE_ATTR_NORET static void print_features(void) 23:34:58 GAH WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU 23:35:05 THE DUMB IT HURTS 23:35:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:35:19 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:35:22 yay I'm breaking your mind! 23:35:25 I'm surprised pikhq hasn't noticed cfunge before now. 23:35:31 Doesn't cold override fast there? 23:35:40 Deewiant: No. 23:35:48 It was truly the one thing that made me realise that AnMaster was irretrievably insane. 23:35:51 "cold" just means that it won't be stuck in the "hot" section. 23:35:59 Deewiant, the fast one could be dropped. 23:36:00 Thanks for the info! ... not 23:36:06 FUNGE_ATTR_COLD? 23:36:17 FUNGE_ATTR_HAWT 23:36:20 AnMaster: This is not the "holy fuck that's crazy" reaction that you get to say, Malbolge. 23:36:36 This is the "holy fuck THAT IS RETARDED I HATE YOU" reaction that you get to, say, LOLCODE. 23:36:47 AnMaster: I don't think there are more requirements than integer number of bits at least 8. 23:37:01 pikhq, did you look at the double include in that file I mentioned? 23:37:10 pikhq, but yes that FUNGE_ATTR_FAST should be removed 23:37:14 apart from that it looks fine 23:37:28 FUNGE_ATTR_NORET is to allow error checking anyway 23:37:32 Hmm, "mlton foo.sml" isn't terminating. 23:37:36 does the optimiser even use it? 23:37:37 Oh, now it is. 23:37:39 That was slow. 23:37:43 AnMaster: NOINLINE. In a static. Void. Function. That is only called once. 23:37:48 alise: But now it's fast! 23:37:59 Deewiant: Yes! It prints "Hello, world!" in 0.002 seconds. 23:38:00 This is "fuck you, optimiser, I'm going to make you do soemthing dumb". The attribute. 23:38:06 pikhq, correct. But why fill up the cache line for the "normal" path of code execution ;P 23:38:08 Amazing. 23:38:20 alise: Imagine! It probably would've taken 0.004 if it'd've compiled it in only half a second 23:38:26 AnMaster: Uh... 23:38:27 pikhq, after all it is for printing some info about the binary 23:38:28 Benchmark. 23:38:43 I DEMAND TO SEE BENCHMARKS JUSTIFYING EVERY SINGLE STUPID OPTIMISATION YOU HAVE MADE. 23:38:45 Deewiant: Of course, OCaml and Haskell both compile faster into similarly-performing binaries (OCaml beating Haskell by a lot). 23:38:52 Or 17 bit chars, 34 bit shorts, 51 bit ints, 85 bit longs and 119 bit long longs... 23:38:54 alise: Yep 23:39:08 17 bit chars, ew 23:39:10 Deewiant: SML/NJ, too. 23:39:11 pikhq, well, you are not my employer. So that you have to do yourself 23:39:28 alise: Don't go backpedaling on the language choice, now 23:39:36 AnMaster: Premature optimisation is the root of all evil. 23:39:36 And of course the canonical character set is is something totally whcky. 23:39:37 like anyone would pay AnMaster to code 23:39:39 At least when I write ugly code, I admit that the code is ugly 23:39:39 I'd pay him not to code 23:39:42 Deewiant, 17 bit char sounds fantastic 23:39:47 * Sgeo wonders if he's ever written nice code 23:39:49 Your code is filled with premature optimisation. 23:39:49 Deewiant: SML/NJ is Standard ML too, you know :P 23:40:01 pikhq, did you look at the double include stuff? 23:40:04 Thus, your code is made of evil. And not the enjoyable kind. 23:40:07 AnMaster: Where? 23:40:07 pikhq, yes or no? 23:40:14 alise: That's fine, OCaml and Haskell aren't ;-P 23:40:15 *Where*? 23:40:21 pikhq, I mentioned it above. *unreadability* WAS A GOAL 23:40:29 pikhq: lib/libghthash 23:40:31 pikhq, An express goal yes 23:40:33 AnMaster: *Where*? 23:40:39 pikhq, if you don't read what I say *shrug* 23:40:44 pikhq, I mentioned it above 23:40:45 AnMaster: I missed it. 23:40:49 pikhq: lib/libghthash 23:40:50 pikhq, your loss 23:40:56 I just saw "did you look at it in that file I mentioned?" 23:41:09 your loss I'm afraid 23:41:22 but yes Deewiant told you 23:41:27 lib/libghthash is a directory, AnMaster. 23:41:28 and you ignored that too 23:41:34 pikhq, yes but it affects the files in there 23:41:35 wow AnMaster is so pissy 23:41:36 most of them 23:41:36 it's kinda funny 23:41:40 :D 23:41:43 it's like i can feel him actually getting angry behind the screen 23:41:44 AnMaster: Uh... 23:41:48 so cute. 23:41:52 What the hell is your *point*? 23:42:03 pikhq, that unreadability *is* a goal sometimes in cfunge 23:42:05 "Files from there are double included"? 23:42:13 Darke is once again active in B 23:42:35 pikhq, the *_priv.h ones are included more than once to emulate C++ templates basically 23:42:39 as I SAID ABOVE 23:42:43 You've failed at *that* goal, too. Your code is just bad enough to make me think you're dumb. 23:42:45 your loss for not reading it 23:43:16 You want unreadable code? 23:43:26 pikhq, .. if you aren't going to read what I say anyway 23:43:29 a,b,c;main(z,i)char**i;{h:a=!a,b=!b;g:(b-1)[1[i]]>b[i[1]]?a^=a,c=(b-1)[1[i]],1[i][b-1]=i[1][b],b[i[1]]=c,b=&b[(void*)1]:(b=&b[(void*)1]),!b[i[1]]?:({goto g;}),a?:({goto h;}),b=!b;j:putchar(b[1[i]])[(void*)(b=&b[(void*)1])],1[i][b]?({goto j;}):putchar('\n');} 23:43:30 I'm not going to say anything 23:43:34 pikhq, heh nice 23:43:39 *That's* unreadable code. 23:43:43 pikhq, so it is. 23:43:51 Sgeo: wrong chanenl 23:43:53 *channel 23:44:00 pikhq, looks familiar? 23:44:00 I'm looking at hash_table_priv.h ATM. 23:44:08 coppro, alise isn't in ##nomic for some reason 23:44:16 pikhq, well I didn't write the hash library. 23:44:21 pikhq, but I adapted it 23:44:32 Looks cargo-cultish. 23:44:47 pikhq, to the specialisation (because at that point a 50% speed increased showed up, that was before static funge space) 23:45:00 pikhq, maybe. I don't know what part would be 23:45:09 * Sgeo 's done.. well, not cargo-cultish, but superstitious stuff before 23:45:38 pikhq, but please go bash ick next. Because a lot of it's unreadability is on the same level as this 23:45:46 now I'm going to bed. Night 23:45:50 Oh, the static inline fast-ness. 23:46:14 pikhq, actually I'm going to keep it. Because it does no harm. 23:46:31 There was one line, that I couldn't figure out why, but I left it in [or left it uncommented], because I thoguht it was related to crashinexss 23:46:34 now night → 23:46:37 and so, on that day, new heights of pure idiocy were reached. 23:46:52 I'm going to litter my code with "0;"! 23:46:55 HOORAY! 23:47:03 It does nothing so WHATS THE HARM? 23:47:04 i'm gonna start tagging all my functions static inline __attribute__((noreturn)) 23:47:07 even the ones that return 23:48:06 Also, AnMaster: double-including a header file so you can redefine the macros used for it? 23:48:11 Yeah, that's fairly mundane. 23:48:19 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:48:24 Not "unreadable", not "clever". Just mundane. 23:48:41 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:48:52 you figured out how to twist the c preprocessor to do something actually useful as opposed to what it usually does (make code more confusing)! 23:48:53 ESOTERIC! 23:49:57 * Sgeo should write a language 23:51:04 Hm 23:51:15 newlanguage : functionalprogramming :: glass : OOP? 23:51:31 Sgeo: So, Lazy K. 23:51:36 *logicprogramming 23:51:36 moar esoteric 23:51:40 Wait, I think Unlambda has it covered. Or Lazy K, which I never heard of 23:51:55 Lazy K would be better without the multiple-syntaxes gimmick. 23:52:02 alise: It would. 23:52:16 The SKI-subset is what should be kept. 23:53:15 I'm not *completely* sure on why you hawk on the static-inline-fastness so much, since it does at least have a theoretical chance of having an effect -- good or bad -- if the function happens to be not inlined for some reason. 23:53:36 As opposed to the no-arg thing, I mean. 23:54:01 They're ridiculously tiny functions, and it is very unlikely for them to either not be inlined or have the fastcall-thing matter. 23:54:08 * Sgeo wants to write a .. relational DB language or something. Code and runtime stored in Database table 23:54:10 *tables 23:54:32 I tried to do something similar before, but iirc, it was never-implemented crap 23:54:47 Or maybe I only think it's crap because it was from a while ago 23:55:11 It seems that he just went through and fastcalled everything. 23:55:28 What's a fastcall? 23:55:31 MLton supports continuations via callcc and throw. 23:55:31 MLton has a facility for saving the entire state of a computation to a file and restarting it later. This facility can be used for staging and for checkpointing computations. It can even be used from within signal handlers, allowing interrupt driven checkpointing. 23:55:33 I think I'll like this language. 23:55:53 Isn't that more of an implementation thing than a language thing, having stuff stored in a DB table? 23:56:09 Sgeo: "fastcall" is an alternate C calling convention that sticks arguments in registers. 23:56:24 ugh, prolog handles arithmetic so shittily 23:56:32 It probably doesn't work with most FFIs, does it? 23:56:39 Not cleanly. 23:57:02 Are there any other reasons not to use Fastcall? 23:57:19 Not the standard calling convention. 23:57:41 Has some limitations on what arguments your function can take. 23:57:58 Makes me cockpunch you for using it everywhere.