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00:05:04 <AnMaster> fuck gnome 2.30. They *edited* the old icon theme for the worse. It looks ugly as fuck. And no they didn't save the old icon theme under another name as far as I can tell.
00:16:00 <AnMaster> ah here we go. Old version extracted to /usr/share/icons/gnome-previous
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02:19:42 <augur> not just anybooody
02:21:35 <fax> idk I can't figure out what to do now
02:23:47 <fax> for my self :S
02:24:02 <augur> watch the new doctor who episode!
02:24:04 <fax> I understand why you can't trisect an angle :D
02:24:15 <fax> everyone talks about doctor who
02:24:16 <augur> well you CAN trisect an angle
02:24:19 <fax> I haven't been watching it
02:24:23 <augur> just not with a compass and straightedge
02:24:30 <fax> augur want me to tell you i
02:24:31 <fax> augur want me to tell you it
02:37:15 <fax> so are you
02:58:39 <pikhq> By "rape" he of course means "scour one's existence from the earth".
02:59:08 <pikhq> And I'm not sure where that takes me, but in the end, your mom's a whore.
03:07:13 <fax> I bite off augurs hand
03:18:24 <Sgeo> fax, what's the proof?
03:18:42 <fax> Sgeo -- okay
03:19:17 <fax> the first thing is to notice that if we have lengths x and y on our paper -- we can also construct x+y, x-y, xy, x/y using our straightedge and compass
03:20:05 <Sgeo> How do you do xy and x/y?
03:20:12 <fax> the only other thing we can really do is draw a circle and intersect a line with it: analytically this means solving something like x^2+y^2=r^2 against a linear equation -- all in all we can take square roots this way
03:27:05 <fax> you put x and y at right angles
03:30:06 <fax> no you don't sorry
03:30:10 <fax> you put x and 1 at right angles
03:30:18 <fax> then you draw the hypotenuse, and exend it out (forever)
03:30:25 <fax> you need a '1' value to multiply things
03:30:39 <fax> I mean you could just use a thumbwidth or something
03:30:41 <Sgeo> Oh, you're responding to my x*y x/y question
03:30:53 <fax> so this is a triangle with sides, 1:x
03:31:24 <fax> you exend the baseline too, until you find a place where the height down is y, and that gives a (similar) triangle with is y:xy
03:31:37 <fax> to divide numbers you can just reverse this procedure
03:32:52 <fax> Sgeo, so in effect we have a field (have you met this structure from algebra before??)
03:33:13 <Sgeo> I've heard of fields, don't really know what they are. They define certain operations on them?
03:33:39 <fax> well a field is just something which has +,-,*,/ and stuff like (x+y)z = xz+yz
03:34:03 <fax> so we can construct every element of our field with a ruler and compass!
03:34:51 <fax> say our field so far is R, we can adjoin some square roots to get R[sqrt(x)] which is again a field
03:36:11 <fax> obviously constructing an angle is equivalent to constructing it's cosine. In the case of the angle being 360/n it's equivalent to constructing the n-gon right?
03:36:39 * Sgeo is only half paying attention, tbh
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06:10:43 <zzo38> I found another esolang called ModanShogi it is based on a shogi game movements
06:10:47 <zzo38> http://github.com/yhara/ShogiModan
06:32:00 * Sgeo can easily imagine writing a Haskell implementation of BF before ever understanding a nice way to write a Python implementation of BF
06:34:01 <Sgeo> Mind you, with Haskell, I can use Parsec
06:34:43 <pikhq> Which is severe overkill for Brainfuck parsing.
06:37:20 <Sgeo> I guess it's healthier to figure out how to do without
06:58:11 <coppro> Sgeo: you saw my parser in Haskell, did you not?
06:58:12 <zzo38> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
06:58:26 <Sgeo> coppro, um, part of it
06:58:32 <Sgeo> I don't think I saw the full thing
06:58:48 <Sgeo> And at any rate, I want to process everything into BFCmds before processing
06:58:53 <zzo38> And nobody expects the big monster with three tentacles on the same ship either, unless *I* say so.
06:59:26 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24645#a24645
07:00:14 * Sgeo obviously shouldn't have said processing in both places, if that's what you mean
07:01:09 <Sgeo> And yes, I think BFComment can be useful. Say I also want to write a simple optimizer
07:01:19 <Sgeo> Don't need to interpret to do that
07:01:26 <Sgeo> And I can leave comments in place
07:01:49 <Quadrescence> Sgeo: I hope one day you learn python and haskell and maybe even scheme
07:02:11 * Sgeo knows Python fairly well
07:05:43 <Sgeo> Quadrescence, are you going to explain yourself?
07:08:02 <Quadrescence> If a good friend was here, I'd have him explain
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07:09:59 <dixon> I heard someone was being stupid and wanted to use monadic parsing for brainfuck.
07:10:15 <dixon> Who gets to wear the dummy hat?
07:10:36 * Sgeo wants to see proof that dixon /= Quadrescence
07:10:49 <dixon> AWWW Sgeo GETS TO WEAR THE DUMMY HAT!
07:11:02 <dixon> Well, first you should /msg nickserv info dixon all
07:11:24 <dixon> And see that I've been registered years before Quadrescence with an entirely different account.
07:12:25 <dixon> Then you should stop using monadic parsing, which I'm guessing at least 100 people in this channel told you was a bad idea.
07:13:22 <Sgeo> Overkill == bad idea?
07:14:18 <dixon> It'd be like driving your children to school in a tank.
07:14:28 <dixon> When all you really wanted was side-impact airbags.
07:15:18 <zzo38> Do you think 42 is really the proper answer to life, the universe, and everything, or do you think not?
07:17:02 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Why do you think that, please?
07:18:09 <zzo38> Can you please explain what evidence and how you can come to that conclusion from the given evidence, I would like to know how
07:18:41 <Sgeo> Turing was gay, we in this channel talk about stuff that Turing did a lot, therefore we are all gay.
07:18:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: That's a dumb way.
07:19:11 <zzo38> Perhaps it was true of Turing but it doesn't make that of everyone
07:19:13 <Quadrescence> zzo38: do you mind if I finish these sun chips and mtn dew
07:19:24 <Sgeo> zzo38, no kidding?
07:19:31 <zzo38> Quadrescence: I really don't care. They aren't mine
07:19:34 <dixon> zzo38: He integrated you over a finite portion of a hypergeometric function and realized you swung the wrong way.
07:19:53 <zzo38> I'm actually asexual
07:21:48 <dixon> I have some twins to eat later. I'm waiting for them to arrive :3
07:24:08 <zzo38> (In case you didn't know, I was asking "Why?" to Quadrescence's)
07:25:12 <zzo38> Do you mean "hungry" or "hungwy"?
07:26:12 * Sgeo should really be sleeping
07:27:38 <zzo38> And I have never heard of such a word as "hungwy" and I don't know what it means
07:28:35 <dixon> It's etymologically related to "twat." I would ask if you were familiar, but it seems you've already implied not.
07:37:51 <zzo38> Do you have any idea of making spell in D&D game?
07:40:43 <zzo38> I have ideas to make spell to swap the text contents of two books or scrolls, and also to make the caster's hand fall off, and so on
07:46:04 <zzo38> The real country of freedom is "Pull down to select"
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07:50:36 <zzo38> And when Sevil arrives on the ship, if there is not a big monster with three tentacles arriving on the same ship, something has gone wrong and you have to figure out what's wrong.
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08:15:08 * Sgeo was thinking about how to get the optimizer working, and it helped me figure out a bit of the parsing
08:19:05 * dixon was thinking about how to get Sgeo's brain working, and it helped me figure out that he's probably just hopeless :\
08:24:57 <dixon> I wuv you Sgeo, I do, I'd just wish you'd listen to the four people telling you that you're strangling kittens with oil pipeline.
08:25:09 <Sgeo> I'm not using Parsec
08:25:36 <dixon> I would give you a hug, but I have a tendency to cop a feel.
08:26:02 <Sgeo> I _am_ using a data BFCmd that means I can't just write parseBFChar '+' = BFInc etc
08:27:43 <dixon> You could always try python-llvm, for the lulz.
08:28:22 * Sgeo should be sleeping
08:28:31 <Sgeo> Sleep will probably let me think better when I awake
08:28:36 <Sgeo> It's 3:26AM here
08:29:32 <Sgeo> Either you're rounding, or there's a mysterious 3min difference
08:29:47 <Sgeo> erm, *looks at timestamp* 4min
08:30:25 <dixon> Well, I'm using NTP, so I hope it's not wrong.
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16:54:21 * Sgeo goes to write a separate tape manipulation module
16:55:24 * fax does something more interesting than implement brainfuck
16:59:54 * Sgeo wonders if he's over-engineering
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17:23:21 <AnMaster> what is that sort of "always" falling tone called now again?
17:23:47 <AnMaster> there was one in Mario64, if you went up the final stairs before collecting enough stars
17:24:06 <AnMaster> I remember hearing some name for that sort of sound once
17:25:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you happen to know? I think I remember you were involved in a discussion about them here ages ago?
17:31:18 <fizzie> I vaguely remember a discussion about them, but not any specific name. I think the tones themselves were mentioned on some "auditory illusions" page.
17:33:30 <fizzie> Apparently it's sometimes called Shepard’s paradox, though that name seems to be a bit ambiguous.
17:33:36 <fizzie> http://www.moillusions.com/2006/05/audio-optical-illusions.html
17:34:06 <Gregor> "Audio optical illusions"
17:34:33 <fizzie> Everyone seems to call them that. :p
17:34:57 <fizzie> http://angrydylan.blogspot.com/2007/11/shepards-paradox.html is another bit, and you can obviously google more.
17:35:47 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone is also related.
17:35:52 <fizzie> Phew, maybe that was enough linkery.
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17:39:41 <Gregor> That's a lot less of a trick than I originally assumed it might be :P
17:43:29 <hiato> I wonder if someone owns that
17:43:51 <AnMaster> www.com.com seems to redirect to cnet
17:44:00 <AnMaster> so presumably they own www.www.com.com too
17:44:02 <Deewiant> It's a subdomain of com.com, which belongs to cnet
17:45:14 <hiato> http://org.org/ --- wth is this place?
17:46:19 <fizzie> Someone's random photos is what it looks like.
17:46:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not call it audio illusions instead?
17:46:41 <AnMaster> I mean, there is no good reason to include the word optical there
17:46:57 <hiato> meh, with such n awesome name
17:47:09 <AnMaster> unlike if you were to use the Swedish word for optical illusions: "synvillor" where "syn" refers to "sight"
17:47:27 <AnMaster> calling it "ljudsynvillor" would be quite reasonable then
17:47:56 <AnMaster> (because "villor" alone means nothing related to illusions. It means "villas". Go figure)
17:48:12 <AnMaster> I guess ljudvillor would be interpretable too
17:49:30 * Sgeo wonders if his decision to make moveRight :: Tape a -> Maybe (Tape a) will just confuse him beyond all home
17:51:11 <hiato> Sgeo: BF in Haskell? I have but one question: why?
17:55:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, won't moving right always be possible?
17:55:36 <AnMaster> while moving left might hit the start
17:55:57 <AnMaster> hiato, then it will always be possible in both directions
17:56:20 <hiato> yeah, that's how i'd do it
17:56:50 <Sgeo> Well, I want there to be several kinds of tape
17:57:03 <Sgeo> It's possible to make tape unbounded at both ends, or bounded at both ends
17:57:40 <AnMaster> hiato, nah I would do infinite tape upwards, but finite downwards
17:57:44 <Sgeo> data Tape a = Tape [a] a [a]
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17:57:59 <Sgeo> With the head of each list being the element closest to the head
17:58:03 <AnMaster> while infinite in both directions would be an analogy to Z
17:58:05 <Sgeo> erm, tape head
17:58:11 <fax> uphill both ways
17:58:26 <AnMaster> your tape hiato would be an analogy to N modulo x
17:59:02 * AnMaster wonders what a tape analogous to Q or R would be
17:59:16 <AnMaster> also what a finite, non-wrapping one would be
17:59:41 <Sgeo> How would I make a tape that wraps? let the_list = [0,0,0,0,0] in Tape (reverse the_list) 0 the_liist?
18:00:01 <Sgeo> No, I don't.. think so
18:00:03 <fax> Sgeo: it's impossible
18:00:04 <AnMaster> now I want an uncountably infinite bf tape :(
18:00:29 <hiato> I donno, I just find it easier to give a generous length, then rotate tape as needed, always working on the first element
18:00:34 <AnMaster> just take the current position modulo the length of the day
18:01:31 <hiato> tail a ++ [head a]
18:01:44 <AnMaster> then yes it makes sense to use a circular linked list
18:02:15 <fax> no it doesn't
18:02:27 <AnMaster> hiato, if the language is single assignment that would be rather inefficient
18:02:37 <AnMaster> assuming cons style lists that is
18:02:54 <AnMaster> use a double linked circular list
18:02:59 <AnMaster> moving left or right is trivial
18:03:06 <AnMaster> just follow the pointer in the relevant direction
18:03:11 <AnMaster> of course that requires a low level language
18:03:23 <fax> if you are going to use mutable variables then you should make the values mutable rather than the cons
18:03:36 <hiato> AnMaster: yeah, true, but that's the concpt, and if mage lazy it doesn't really matter - all operationse on the first etement only
18:04:10 <AnMaster> hiato, what the heck was "mage" a typo for...
18:04:12 <hiato> New keyboard layout
18:05:12 <AnMaster> I'm perfectly happy with qwerty
18:05:24 <AnMaster> I don't type that much, I code. Meaning I think more than I type
18:05:49 <hiato> naah, just an experiment
18:06:11 <AnMaster> well okay I use inline asm in C sometimes...
18:06:38 <hiato> You're just afraid of it's power
18:07:48 <AnMaster> because what needs 200 lines of C needs maybe 20 lines of erlang. (well usually not quite as dramatic ratio, but when the stuff is heavy on memory handling it might be)
18:08:30 <AnMaster> how many lines of C would it take you to write a program that recurse through a set of directories given on the command line, finding duplicate files
18:08:38 <AnMaster> it should avoid reading files if possible
18:08:44 <AnMaster> by checking the size of the files
18:08:57 <hiato> yeah, well, if people talk efficiency and anything other than ASM, they're just making up useless -etrics
18:09:14 <AnMaster> hiato, well, efficient in programmer time
18:09:39 <AnMaster> I think maybe 1000 lines at most
18:09:53 <AnMaster> but in erlang it took me, what, *checks*
18:10:18 <AnMaster> 232 lines, including comments and blanks
18:10:31 <hiato> Yeah, 10000's because I know no C libraries and would prob implument another language and link to bash or something
18:10:35 <AnMaster> Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total
18:10:35 <AnMaster> ---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
18:11:39 <AnMaster> step 1: recurse and read file info, store in a dict the size as key, and append the filename to the value
18:11:48 <AnMaster> so all files with the same size is in the same key
18:13:16 <AnMaster> step 2/3: (2) for each such key it goes through and calculate the hash of each file, stores a 2-tuple {size,md5sum} with filenames (3) for each such key, now it finally checks that they are the same, and we don't have a theoretical hash collision
18:13:25 <AnMaster> step 2/3 are done interleaved to make use of disk cache
18:13:32 <AnMaster> that is, it won't need to read the files in again
18:13:48 <AnMaster> step 2 is done to not have to load as much file data into memory at once
18:13:56 <AnMaster> since I need to run this on fairly large files
18:14:27 <AnMaster> a lot often the files will be much smaller
18:15:10 <hiato> Hmmm, but as you probably considered, tle size comparison isn't really necessary, in fact, i'm sure any decent hash takes it into account anyway
18:15:47 <AnMaster> hiato, the size is to reduce having to read the files from disk
18:15:55 <AnMaster> if there are no two files of the same size
18:16:00 <AnMaster> it doesn't have to read those at all
18:16:10 <AnMaster> since getting the size is way faster than reading the file
18:16:19 <AnMaster> it maps to a simple stat() or such at some level
18:16:37 <hiato> ok, cant fault you then
18:16:38 <AnMaster> hiato, I ran this on the linux source tree with a compiled kernel in it
18:16:50 <AnMaster> it was way faster than a naive bash script that I used before
18:17:07 <AnMaster> as in, 30 seconds vs. 7 minutes
18:17:22 <hiato> Really? I thought pipes and such are lazy
18:18:39 <hiato> wait, I'm slow with kbd
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18:20:42 <AnMaster> hiato, they just work concurrentlyu
18:21:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, btw wth is up with the topic? You set it last it looks like
18:23:19 <hiato> An efficient implementation in *sh would take into account that pipes as data flow are lazy, more specifically, if used as a source, it will only feed as much as is requested, so you could easily implement a naieve list and glob for files based on hashes andpipes that feed data only to the point that the conditional request fails
18:24:22 <AnMaster> pipes are just concurrent, not lazy
18:24:38 <hiato> and i did all that typing
18:24:39 <AnMaster> and writes block if that buffer is full
18:25:49 <AnMaster> theoretically I could optimise my implementation by doing the md5 calculation while data is being read in
18:25:55 <AnMaster> shouldn't be too hard in erlang
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18:26:55 <Sgeo> Hi ehirdiphone
18:27:01 <Sgeo> Why are you on the iPhone?
18:27:04 <hiato> ehirdiphone: phone?
18:27:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm overengineering my BF interpreter
18:27:54 <hiato> Have you seen the cw input interface for the iPhone?
18:28:44 <hiato> Morse Code iput, er, iDitDah or somesuch
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18:28:54 <fax> ehird god dammit
18:30:06 <hiato> ehirdiphone: http://kb1ooo.com/iditdahtext/iDitDahText.html
18:30:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: You are *probably* overengineering it.
18:31:20 <fax> I was wanting to talk to you for ages
18:32:24 <ehirdiphone> I /do/ have to pick things up from the old house.
18:32:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone you and fax have been missing each other with like 5 minutes for *days*
18:32:44 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, have things improved btw?
18:33:04 <pikhq> fax: Dude, some people have real lives. Granted, ehird is normally an exception. Still. :P
18:34:32 <ehirdiphone> ais formulated me getting a girlfriend as the most ludicrous explanation for the unit absence possible. Nuff said :P
18:34:50 <fax> nuff said??
18:35:10 <oklopol> well gf's are extremely easy to get
18:35:37 <oklopol> oh she didn't get the nuff
18:36:02 <fax> wnat the fucking hell is going on
18:36:07 <AnMaster> was watching that video hiato linked
18:36:35 <oklopol> is "pareto optimal" in common usage?
18:36:41 <oklopol> do you all know what it means?
18:38:01 <oklopol> okay that's enough of an answer for me
18:39:16 <ehirdiphone> fax: Be more precise and if you want to talk do.
18:40:24 <fax> ehirdiphone do you know who I am ??
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18:42:14 <ehirdiphone> fax: I was under the impression you wanted to talk :P
18:43:01 <Gregor> http://www.nuffy.net/pics/funny/toilate/toilete_signs_08.jpg Little did they know that ZW birds are female :P
18:50:10 <AnMaster> <oklopol> is "pareto optimal" in common usage? <-- what *does* it mean
18:50:49 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> fax: Be more precise and if you want to talk do.
18:50:49 <AnMaster> <fax> ehirdiphone do you know who I am ??
18:50:50 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone_ (~ehirdipho@82.132.248.25) has joined #esoteric
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18:50:50 <AnMaster> * ehirdiphone_ is now known as ehirdiphone
18:50:50 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> fax: I was under the impression you wanted to talk :P
18:50:55 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, in case you missed some of that
18:51:32 <ehirdiphone> fax: What do you mean, do you know who I am?
18:51:34 <AnMaster> <Gregor> http://www.nuffy.net/pics/funny/toilate/toilete_signs_08.jpg Little did they know that ZW birds are female :P <-- ZZ? ZW?
18:52:31 <AnMaster> <fax> I'm your father ehirdiphone. <ehirdiphone> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
18:52:32 <Sgeo> Bleh at there being no Integer -> Char
18:52:36 <Gregor> XX is female, ZW is female, so in fact these bathroom signs are indicating that male birds (and some insects, etc) use the same restroom as female mammals (e.g. humans :P ), and female birds (etc) use the same restroom as male mammals (e.g. humans)
18:53:30 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just have the tape be Tape Char
18:53:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, what is the circle and the triangle symbols?
18:53:40 <Gregor> AnMaster: In the US, that's just about the only word we don't use to refer to the room :P
18:53:48 <Sgeo> Although that complicates + and - slightly
18:53:50 <Gregor> AnMaster: That I can't answer ...
18:53:54 <Sgeo> well, not really, I guess
18:55:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, why call it restrooms?
18:55:10 <AnMaster> Gregor, also what about "loo"?
18:55:20 <AnMaster> "water closet: a toilet in Britain
18:55:20 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn"
18:55:23 <Gregor> That's a word with no meaning whatsoever here.
18:55:40 <pikhq> "Loo" is just fine. Don't think many people *use* it, but I'm pretty sure most people would understand it just fine.
18:55:56 <Gregor> pikhq: GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU TRAITOR COMMY
18:56:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: "Uh, the toilet's in the bathroom..."
18:56:21 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: "Uh, the toilet's in the bathroom..."
18:56:24 <oklopol> you don't need to call them anything, just say you're gonna take a shit
18:57:13 <oklopol> "i intend to leak fecal matter out of my ass, where should i do this"
18:57:14 <Gregor> OK, OK, so most people would know what "loo" means.
18:57:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, here in Sweden toalett can be both the room, or the equipment. When referred to as the room it is a room which contains only the equipment and handfat (English word slipped my mind, you was your hands there)
18:57:33 <Gregor> But it would be like this "loo" -> "funny British word for bathroom" -> "bathroom"
18:57:38 <Gregor> Not "loo" -> "bathroom"
18:57:40 <AnMaster> it wouldn't be used for a room that contained a bathtub or such as well
18:57:48 <Gregor> Whereas WC would just have people scratching their heads.
18:58:07 <Gregor> AnMaster: "handfat" is officially the greatest word ever.
18:58:09 <AnMaster> WC is common on signs for toilets around here
18:58:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: A room with just a toilet is also a bathroom. ;)
18:58:37 <Gregor> "restroom" and "bathroom" are used interchangeably here.
18:58:39 <pikhq> In floor plans, it's termed a "quarter bath". In spite of having 0 baths.
18:58:41 <Gregor> Not in English, in American vernacular.
18:58:50 <ehirdiphone> I always thought that abba song was about toilets when I was really young
18:59:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well no one would say "water closet" in the same way as no one says "dihydrogen monoxide"
18:59:19 <AnMaster> as in, I actually heard people using it, but just as a joke
18:59:56 <AnMaster> argh now I feel I have that tune on my head
19:01:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, that "water closet: a toilet in Britain" was from define:loo btw
19:17:03 -!- dixon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:17:53 <ehirdiphone> Izi USB jai ow zkqodj wkdhf euwixb jdb jd dk ne fdisk zlqpxh
19:18:04 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
19:18:42 <ehirdiphone> Ozowkd abxoxbs fowoxjwj x dj jz. I icori h dj oso odj jebwkxodocidisbbaixieisoso kj jwoxppskjajco ackvpgirurvx iwospwiiqbzbc woxpfkf.
19:19:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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19:20:43 <AnMaster> -00:01/10:33, and I'm near the end of this file
19:21:02 <hiato> 19:33 < AnMaster> was watching that video hiato linked <------ er?
19:21:06 <AnMaster> funny the way it continues to count
19:21:57 <AnMaster> had a video demoing the thing on it
19:22:54 <hiato> also, at least vlc can count, dont get me started about mpd and streams
19:26:28 -!- dixon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:26:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:28:06 <hiato> It just gives seemingly random numbers. Fair enough, it cant be expected to track position in a stream, but it gives me things like 99:01:01:01
19:28:23 -!- dixon has joined.
19:28:25 <hiato> i mean, what is that? The radio station is older
19:28:44 <hiato> and I've been listening for maybe ten minutes
19:28:45 <AnMaster> hiato, possibly in the current segment?
19:30:33 <AnMaster> hiato, or 99 indicates a stream
19:31:16 <AnMaster> 99:01:01:01 <-- is 99 in hundreds of hours?
19:31:33 <AnMaster> hiato, well what is the last unit in?
19:31:39 <hiato> let me connct now and show you
19:32:51 <hiato> 07:17:47 is the one pice of info
19:33:04 <hiato> the other is my corroct listen time
19:33:07 * AnMaster has a 3 line, 14 column lcd here
19:33:18 <AnMaster> should I make it possible to get a console on it?
19:33:27 <AnMaster> would need a user space daemon for it
19:33:36 <AnMaster> since I need to program it with libusb
19:33:48 <AnMaster> it can only display a limited charset btw
19:34:19 <hiato> oklopol: wouldn't know, never took french
19:34:44 <oklopol> ("isn't ic written i see")
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19:37:19 <hiato> AnMaster: 20:30 < AnMaster> since I need to program it with libusb ---> what about a parallel port? Significantly easier
19:37:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:37:54 <Sgeo> My dad stepped on the switch for the power thing that powers the cable modem
19:38:13 <hiato> Gregor: what is a "mandelstam"?
19:38:23 -!- jcp has joined.
19:38:48 <Gregor> It's a verb. "to mandelstam"
19:39:09 <hiato> Ok, and it's meaning is?
19:39:14 -!- dixon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:39:25 <Gregor> Well ... it's a mandelly kind of ... stamming.
19:41:24 <hiato> Oh? Wouldn't have guessed that, sneaky and deceptive. So it's like like a not so frabtious way of presbiedling
19:47:54 <Sgeo> I think my bftape.hs is good enough
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19:48:51 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24660#a24660
19:50:39 <hiato> Sgeo: any particular reason for moveby?
19:50:52 -!- lament has joined.
19:51:05 <Sgeo> The main program stores BF commands as, e.g., BFMove 5
19:51:15 <Sgeo> Instead of just BFRight
19:53:20 <hiato> I like the modifyTapeHead
19:57:24 <Sgeo> It seems like it can take a while to figure out how to write a line of Haskell, but reading it is easy
19:58:09 <Sgeo> And it's generally important to be able to read code later, more so than writing it now..
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19:59:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, I have a little request for your musical skills
19:59:27 <AnMaster> Gregor, something I think might be interesting
19:59:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, the result of merging the internationale and some of Chopin's music
20:00:04 <AnMaster> I have no idea what it would sound like
20:00:18 <AnMaster> and I lack the skill to do it myself
20:02:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, is that a good or bad sign?
20:02:35 <Gregor> However, I do believe this is probably beyond my skills.
20:03:09 <Gregor> Did you have anything more specific than "Chopin's music"?
20:03:39 <AnMaster> Gregor, well, some suitable music by him. I'm not quite enough expert on him to be able to name a specific piece
20:03:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, but iirc you liked him a lot
20:04:03 <AnMaster> so I assumed you would be able to pick a suitable, slow piece that is typical Chopin
20:04:16 <Gregor> e.g. "Any Chopin Nocturne #whatever" :P
20:05:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, you see, I and some other people were discussing this in another channel (on another network).
20:05:55 <Gregor> I imagine the fact that you've ever heard The Internationale before and I have not has a lot to do with our respective positions on Earth :P
20:07:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, you haven't heard the Internationale?!
20:07:38 <AnMaster> (assuming that "ever" was a typo for "n&"
20:07:54 <Gregor> Maybe I have before, but dismissed it as "extraordinarily generic anthem-sounding music"
20:08:27 <AnMaster> Gregor, it is just that it is about as far as you can get from a Chopin nocturne
20:08:34 <AnMaster> which is why we were discussing merging them
20:09:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, I have no idea if it is possible, and if it is, if the result is interesting
20:09:11 <Gregor> So I assume you were referring to merging not so much in creating a piece of music which is a stylistic merge, but actually mixing recordings of both into some horrible mutant.
20:09:31 <AnMaster> but considered that I once heard a boogie-woogie waltz...
20:09:37 <AnMaster> I don't consider it *impossible*
20:10:22 <oklopol> i'm good at mixing X and deathcore for any value of X, if anyone's interested
20:11:11 <oklopol> to any X/deathcore ratio less than or equal to 0.5, i suspect
20:11:48 <oklopol> that was actually mostly a joke, deathcore isn't what i usually write (although it is what i usually listen to).
20:11:56 <AnMaster> Gregor, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFO0SXf4mw4 (lyrics in Swedish btw, but the music itself should be interesting, the boogie-woogie waltz)
20:12:38 <AnMaster> the composer and perfomer is the famous (in Sweden) comedian Povel Ramel
20:15:26 <oklopol> that's some serious liquid insanity
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20:19:52 <oklopol> if i mix deathcore and nothing, won't the result be just deathcore
20:20:52 <oklopol> also people generally manage to name the genre of any of my music, except those who hear an electric guitar and say metal or rock
20:20:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:21:10 <oklopol> god i'm getting tired of inequalities
20:22:13 <oklopol> there should be a don't somewhere in there
20:22:20 <dixon> X usually denotes a set
20:22:40 <dixon> Or something that isn't a variable.
20:23:17 <oklopol> you mean in something like let (X, S, m) be a measure space, X is not a variable?
20:23:32 <oklopol> or what do you mean by variable
20:23:39 <dixon> A variable varies.
20:23:52 <oklopol> err no it doesn't, in math
20:24:15 <ehirdiphone> a variable is just something you plug in values for
20:24:24 <dixon> x \in R, thus x can VARY to be any value in R
20:24:32 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
20:24:38 <oklopol> and in (X, S, m), X can VARY to be any set
20:24:51 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
20:25:34 <ehirdiphone> dixon: That's a stupid definition of change.
20:25:46 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Thanks?
20:25:53 <oklopol> absolutely any set can be made a measure space out of
20:26:01 <oklopol> x \in R has more constraints
20:26:38 <oklopol> if you say let x \in R and then prove something about x, you're doing it for any value of x. similary, if you let (X, S, m) be a measure space, and prove something about it, you prove something for any measure space.
20:26:46 <oklopol> what's the difference making x a variable and X not one?
20:26:50 <dixon> oklopol: Vitali set, boiiiiii
20:28:06 <oklopol> i'll assume you were joking above
20:28:55 <dixon> I'll assume you're pretending not to know about non-measurable sets.
20:29:29 <oklopol> i know about non-measurable sets
20:29:45 <oklopol> i just don't see how vitali set made any sense
20:29:52 * Sgeo_ wonders if making his parser blind to too many [ is a bad idea
20:30:46 <Sgeo_> well, too many ] will probably cause it to ignore everything after the extra [
20:30:53 <oklopol> if X is a vitali set, then you can't make a measure space out of it?
20:33:16 <Quadrescence> bad program = doesn't do what it's supposed to
20:33:36 <oklopol> dixon: any set X can be made into a measure space by setting S = {{}, X} and m(a) = 0 for all a \in S
20:33:38 <Sgeo_> This parser is getting uglier by the second :/
20:33:47 <dixon> So if a measurable space has a lebesgue measure, and the Vitali set isn't lebesgue measurable
20:34:23 <dixon> That's wonderful, but is that making a measure space of the Vitali set itself, or a different set containing the vitali set as a subset?
20:34:57 <oklopol> it's making a measure space of the vitali set, X = vitali set. i assumed the vitali set was an example of something X can't be
20:34:59 <Sgeo_> ehirdiphone, is that a joke?
20:35:04 <oklopol> because you said X can't be *absolutely any set*
20:35:04 <Sgeo_> After several people told me NOT to?
20:35:21 <oklopol> and said this is because "vitali set boiiiiii"
20:35:24 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Brainfuck parsing.
20:35:36 <oklopol> also you can even make R^n into a measure space such that all vitali sets are measurable
20:35:42 <oklopol> i'll leave this as homework
20:35:52 <Sgeo_> ehirdiphone, pikhq and Quadrescence and dixon
20:35:58 <pikhq> And 4 lines out of it. :P
20:36:10 <Sgeo_> pikhq, um, this is much much more than 4 lines
20:36:27 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo_: dixon is a moron and pikhq should be ashamed :P
20:37:07 <Sgeo_> How about this: I do it both ways
20:37:47 <AnMaster> <oklopol> that's some serious liquid insanity <-- what is?
20:38:21 <oklopol> Quadrescence: can you explain his statement about X vs x?
20:38:45 <oklopol> i hope there's a better argument out there than vitali set boiiiii
20:38:56 <Sgeo_> Which is better: A language that's easy to write in but difficult to read, or a language that's easy to read in but difficult to write?
20:39:22 <Quadrescence> oklopol: I don't really remember what the argument was
20:39:41 <Sgeo_> It's just that it seems that Haskell tends to be a bit of the latter, imo
20:40:07 <oklopol> or read logs, it's not a very interesting argument
20:40:26 <Quadrescence> you can reiterate the question/whatever so we are all on the same page
20:40:38 <ehirdiphone> Avoid stating informed opinions until you're informed :P
20:41:03 <oklopol> the claim was that X usually denotes matrices or sets and is therefore not a variable, unlike x which denotes things like real numbers
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20:41:26 <oklopol> and that in x \in R, x can *vary*, whereas if you say (X, S, m) is a measure space, X can't vary
20:41:38 <Quadrescence> dixon: do you agree with what he just said (that this was the claim, be it true or false)
20:41:51 <oklopol> i don't see how there's any distinction between those
20:41:55 <dixon> Quadrescence: I said X can't assume all values.
20:42:13 <dixon> e.g., a non-measurable set
20:42:27 <dixon> Assuming lebesgue measure
20:42:32 <oklopol> that statement i just find plain weird
20:42:43 <oklopol> why couldn't you make a non-measurable set into a measure space
20:43:13 <oklopol> any set made into a measure space as for instance (X, {{}, X}, m), m(a) = 0 for all a
20:43:40 <Sgeo_> Dear Notepad++: Please don't attempt to match [ and ] if they're in single quotes
20:43:57 <dixon> Any negative number can be made nonnegative by adding its inverse. That doesn't make it initially nonegative.
20:43:58 <Quadrescence> Dear Sgeo_, learn to use a decent fucking editor
20:44:13 <oklopol> also x \in R, so even if it was MeasurableSet, X would still be a variable in the same sense that we name an arbitrary element of some class
20:44:47 <oklopol> dixon: what? a vitali set is not in any way inherently non-measurable, as i said there are measures on R^n where vitali sets can be measured.
20:45:01 <oklopol> why? what's the difference?
20:45:09 <dixon> oklopol: It's not Lebesgue measurable!
20:45:16 <oklopol> we say let X \in Set, and we say x \in R
20:45:26 <oklopol> and then we talk about that one x or X that can't change during the discussion
20:45:27 <dixon> I just said "assuming Lebesgue measure" like 10000000 times
20:45:59 <oklopol> err right, the second time i missed that
20:46:01 <Quadrescence> I did for a second but now I don't. When I think variable, I think: forall X in D, f(X)
20:46:13 <oklopol> that's a weird assumption because it's not relevant that X can be non-measurable in some measure
20:46:31 <dixon> The most popular measure :\
20:46:39 <dixon> (among the ladies anyway)
20:46:53 <oklopol> it's still irrelevant if we're talking about whether X can be made into a measure space
20:47:05 <oklopol> obviously there will be some spaces where X is not a measurable set, for any X except {}
20:47:22 <oklopol> and yeah sure it's the most popular
20:47:35 <dixon> Quadrescence: Make a measure space of boobies. Get your sigma algebra all over that :3
20:48:11 <Quadrescence> oklopol: also IIRC you just interchanged "measure space" and "measurable space" a few times
20:48:22 <oklopol> Quadrescence: can you explain why "forall X in D, f(X)", as a definition for variable, makes x a variable in "x \in R", but not X in "X \in Set"
20:48:35 <oklopol> i seriously doubt that, but maybe, let's see
20:48:51 <Quadrescence> oklopol: I can explain if I add more context to the question
20:49:27 <oklopol> i did talk about non-measurable set, and meant non-lebesque measurable, that might not have been clear from context
20:49:30 <Quadrescence> idk this discussion is boring let's listen to Sgeo_ talk about stuff
20:49:31 <Sgeo_> Awesome, this parser seems to actually be working
20:50:14 <Quadrescence> I wonder if his parser is parsing or if he is confusing lexing with parsing or both
20:50:28 <Sgeo_> Well, kind of. Extra ] causes it to cut off, and it seems to automatically put ] at the end if needed
20:51:40 <oklopol> the fact ] is causing him trouble suggests parsing
20:52:23 <oklopol> i ate so much pizza i'm all twitchy
20:52:32 <Quadrescence> oklopol: yes I agree so I suppose he is talking about parsing and not lexing
20:52:38 <oklopol> is that healthy / even possible?
20:52:43 <oklopol> maybe it's caffeine kicking in
20:53:31 <oklopol> Quadrescence: but what do you think, is he using a separate module for the parser and the interpreter
20:54:04 <oklopol> speaking of caffeine, i should probably make some coffee before i get tired
20:54:06 <Quadrescence> probably because he seems to be the type that would overengineer the dick out of something
20:54:19 <dixon> God did that to women
20:54:42 <oklopol> "out of something", so i think god did it to guys
20:54:51 <Sgeo_> I have the definition of the tape and functions that operate on it in a separate module
20:54:59 <oklopol> women are more optimal in many ways
20:55:00 <dixon> oklopol: the pizza is slowing you down
20:55:18 <dixon> I'm going to win our pseudo-argument now >:)
20:55:38 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_: so do you really have a stateful tape? or do you have a thing that generates new tapes from old ones
20:55:50 <oklopol> men are more in the direction of movie-autistic genius in that they suck and own at things more often than women
20:55:51 <Sgeo_> new tape from old ones
20:56:06 <Sgeo_> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24660
20:56:16 <oklopol> which is away from the equilibrium of perfect humanness
20:57:01 <oklopol> dixon: i never considered it a pseudo-argument, although i agree it was a complete waste of everyone's time
20:57:15 <dixon> oklopol: If we didn't have time to waste, we wouldn't be on IRC
20:57:17 <dixon> Haskell is so anti-climactic.
20:57:25 <dixon> You slave for hours and what do you have to show for it? 44 lines.
20:58:12 <oklopol> counted just fine on my screen
20:58:24 <dixon> Have a monospaced font?
20:58:26 <Sgeo_> The modify lines seem to be below the 44
20:58:26 <Quadrescence> dixon: you probs have that alignment junk I hate
20:58:33 <dixon> Quadrescence: DO NOT
20:58:37 <oklopol> yes, i consider non-monospace ugly
20:58:48 <dixon> oklopol: Do you read websites in monospace?
20:59:10 <oklopol> also i disable all features on pages, they are just white on black monospace
20:59:16 <ehirdiphone> I helped him set up windows. Everything on his screen is
20:59:20 <oklopol> ehirdiphone made the theme for me
20:59:20 <dixon> HAHahaAHaHahhahaHahahAHa
20:59:21 <Quadrescence> jk Sgeo_'s idea of using parsec to parse bf was the worst idea
20:59:40 <oklopol> almost everything, some things override it
20:59:56 <oklopol> people are like wtf why is your computer broken
21:00:01 <Quadrescence> well, that is, if you use more than 2 websites on the internet
21:00:06 <dixon> oklopol: That's just because you use Windows.
21:00:21 <oklopol> what's just because? the override?
21:00:58 <Deewiant> If he used something other than Windows they'd say that because it's not Windows
21:01:25 <oklopol> well you see they don't actually say anything because i never take my computer outside and no one even visits me
21:01:31 <oklopol> i mean i meet people but never here
21:01:52 <dixon> oklopol: Sure you did.
21:02:07 <dixon> oklopol: You just go to your measure theory class and home to fap to it.
21:02:16 <dixon> We now know the truth!
21:02:34 <oklopol> measure theory isn't really what i do, measure spaces are just the only thing i was sure everyone would know
21:02:58 <oklopol> not like let [n, k, d]_q R be a linear code
21:03:15 <oklopol> well where everyone = {dixon} :D
21:03:22 <Sgeo_> Why are you asking me?
21:03:30 <oklopol> Sgeo_: i said everyone knows measure spaces
21:03:37 <oklopol> and *someone* decided to take that literally
21:04:08 <Sgeo_> Can you find someone else to assume to be ignorant?
21:04:18 <Quadrescence> yeah fuuuuuuuuk taking "everyone" LITERALLY since there are so many other ways to take it
21:05:18 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and other similar clients
21:05:25 <AnMaster> I made erc format it that way too
21:05:28 <dixon> oklopol: Or because it was the highest level of knowledge you could surmount in order to battle my raging ego.
21:05:52 <Sgeo_> Woohoo, I think it's working
21:06:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: That is a fekking bizarre alignment thing.
21:06:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, well no. It is supposed to be like xchat. But Quadrescence's nick is one char longer than the max length
21:06:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, this it overflows into the other area
21:07:04 <pikhq> See, that's bizarro.
21:07:13 <oklopol> the linear code thing was the highest level
21:07:27 <oklopol> i assume you don't care what they are
21:07:31 <pikhq> And that's all that does that.
21:07:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, when I used irssi it did it too
21:07:48 <Sgeo_> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24662#a24662
21:07:52 <AnMaster> because I set irssi up that way
21:07:53 <Sgeo_> Seems to be somewhat working
21:08:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Why do you break your IRC clients?
21:08:05 <Sgeo_> Another function will combine BFAlters and BFMoves etc.
21:08:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, I find it *WAY* easier to read
21:08:27 * Sgeo_ wishes it wasn't so ugly
21:08:43 <dixon> Sgeo_: Use another language.
21:09:02 <AnMaster> dixon, then it wouldn't be a bf parser
21:09:21 <Sgeo_> ehirdiphone, any ideas for improvements?
21:09:24 <AnMaster> or do you mean the language the parser is written in?
21:09:27 <dixon> It wouldn't be in Haskell.
21:09:35 <dixon> AnMaster: The language it was written in .
21:10:12 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo_: don't mention parsing the rest twice. using god forbid a monad would avoid such duplication
21:10:34 <oklopol> codes are subsets of Q^n, where Q is some set. if we take Q to be the finite field of size q then Q^n is a vector space over Q, and linear codes of type [n, k, d]_q R are just subvector fields of Q^n of dimension k (d and R are minimum distance between two codewords and max distance between a non-codeword and the code)
21:10:35 <dixon> Keep your sick functors away from my categories
21:11:06 <oklopol> (have to define what you mention)
21:11:12 * Sgeo_ is not sure how he'd use a monad to help here
21:11:49 <oklopol> ew at parsec or linear codes?
21:12:00 <dixon> Linear codes are fine.
21:12:14 <oklopol> if you like coding theory (the theory of uniform length codes) then linear codes are very useful
21:12:38 <dixon> I like cryptography, so some information theoretic properties of coding and error correction come into platy.
21:13:01 <Sgeo_> I'll also do it in Parsec
21:13:06 <Sgeo_> Both ways will be available
21:13:07 <ehirdiphone> dixon: how about whenever anyone mentions haskell you take a big gulp of shut the fuck up- in place of the current pipe the fuck up
21:13:24 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Or I could not. That works better for me.
21:13:49 <Sgeo_> ehirdiphone, the non-Parsec way teaches me stuff, the Parsec way makes it a bit more useful for checking stuff
21:13:51 <Quadrescence> because haskell can be written in pointless/POINT-FREE style
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21:14:32 <oklopol> i know very little cryptography
21:14:41 <ehirdiphone> dixon: Yeah but you're the most irritating person here except me
21:15:03 <dixon> ehirdiphone: I'm also the second-coolest person here.
21:15:09 <dixon> You'll have to live with the paradox.
21:15:38 <oklopol> a i am i ami amiai maimaimaiamiamiamai
21:15:53 <dixon> Peanut is the coolest.
21:15:53 <oklopol> AM I COOLEST I WUN BE COOLAST :<<
21:16:27 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: you don't have an age exception for long.
21:16:36 <dixon> Queen of her domain.
21:16:43 * Sgeo_ wonders how this parser handles lazy lists
21:16:50 <Sgeo_> Erm, that was poorly phrased
21:17:44 <ehirdiphone> My spellchecker has now learned unirritatibg.
21:17:45 <oklopol> well i don't know which country you are now, although i have my guesses, but i consider 15 enough for everyone.
21:18:01 <Sgeo_> It seems to handle strings with _|_ in the middle nicely
21:18:11 <dixon> oklopol: The Swedish have a saying: If it's not in diapers, it's old enough to be stretched.
21:18:38 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Neutral perverts.
21:18:59 <tombom> that was what i was thinking
21:19:11 <ehirdiphone> dixon: the swiss are more neutral and THEY DEFEND CATHOLICISM
21:19:15 <dixon> Or because his boyfriend just turned 15
21:19:28 <ehirdiphone> or well they share a name with the pope's guards
21:20:33 <dixon> Hitting on my young self.
21:20:36 <oklopol> well i do find 15-yo girls sexy like any normal male
21:21:00 <dixon> oklopol: Like you are a vampire
21:21:21 <ehirdiphone> oklopol's bf is me he's saving my penile virginity for 15
21:21:22 <Quadrescence> ehirdiphone: how old are you if you can disclose
21:21:59 <Quadrescence> ehirdiphone: next time just don't answer or say you don't want to
21:22:09 <oklopol> i would tell you but it may have changed since i last heard it
21:22:21 <oklopol> i hate ages, should memorize years of birth instead
21:22:42 <oklopol> oh umm then i wish i hadn't said that
21:22:47 <dixon> oklopol: Birthdays. Using coding theory.
21:22:50 <oklopol> because i have two numbers for your age
21:23:11 <dixon> Has iPhone in his name, obv 14.
21:23:28 <dixon> Because YOU ARE EDUCATED EVIL
21:23:30 <ehirdiphone> dixon: your accuracy is physically painful
21:23:34 <dixon> oklopol: Birthday paradox
21:23:52 <oklopol> was it about time dilation or something
21:24:05 <ehirdiphone> If it redeems me I bought this thing in 2007 when it was still uncool :|
21:24:16 <dixon> oklopol: EARTH HAS SIMULTANEOUS FOUR 25 HOUR DAYS
21:24:22 <dixon> YOU ARE EDUCATED EVIL
21:24:23 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: and you waited until it was cool till you started using it?
21:24:27 <dixon> http://timecube.com
21:24:46 <hiato> YOU STUPID BECAUSE OF EDUCATION LIES
21:24:50 <Sgeo_> It's more likely that there are two people in a room of.. I forgot how many .. who share a birthday than you might intuitively think
21:25:07 <oklopol> i would never have guessed
21:25:31 <Sgeo_> At 23 the chance of there being two people who share a birthday is 50%
21:25:38 <tombom> i forget, are larouchites rather dismissive of negative numbers
21:25:48 <dixon> then as you get more than 23, that goes up rapidly.
21:26:07 <dixon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem for epic win
21:26:08 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_: iirc? you mean "if i just looked at wikipedia behind this window a second ago correctly"?
21:26:17 <Sgeo_> Quadrescence, I didn't
21:26:30 <dixon> Quadrescence: No, because It old him from my cryptographic memory of awesome
21:26:36 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Yes dear?
21:26:36 <oklopol> i remember 23 from reading some book in like 5th grade
21:26:47 <oklopol> not what it means, but the number in that context
21:26:57 <dixon> ehirdiphone: I keep the house.
21:27:10 <dixon> You can have the kids.
21:27:11 <oklopol> i used to read all sorts of crap as akid
21:27:20 <dixon> Me too. Like Playboy.
21:27:43 <dixon> ehirdiphone: It'd be just like you to not put out and call it quits.
21:27:53 <Quadrescence> dixon, i heard that the library you wrote years ago is becoming an official part of the standard library for the D programming language
21:28:04 <dixon> Why did I ever even think you were so much to want to than do anymore like?
21:28:07 <Quadrescence> it is so cool to meet people who know that much about crypto
21:28:18 <ehirdiphone> Quadrescence: but that means dixon will be
21:28:33 <dixon> Less Internet-famous than Q.
21:28:49 <coppro> D is a bad attempt at fixing C++
21:28:58 <ehirdiphone> cpressey is more famous than walter bright :p
21:29:19 <oklopol> i'm less known than all of you put together
21:29:20 <Quadrescence> D was a very good attempt, and rather successful in terms of the language itself, but politics and everything around it was not good so etc
21:29:40 <coppro> no, D as a language is pretty bad
21:30:01 <ehirdiphone> if not for time cube just become -1 times more famous
21:30:10 <dixon> coppro: D as a language is fine. It's just the implementations that suck.
21:30:18 * Sgeo_ can't seem to copy from GTK+ applications to any other application
21:30:27 <oklopol> no D is okay as a language and the politics is okay, but it has a crappy name
21:30:39 <coppro> and the syntax, while easier to parse than C++'s, is even uglier
21:30:46 <Sgeo_> Wiat, it's working now?
21:30:59 <oklopol> Quadrescence: do you think his code is now working?
21:31:09 <dixon> coppro: Fixes issues with <<<<<<<<this>>>>>>>>.
21:31:16 <Sgeo_> Why is it that all-of-a-sudden, copy/paste from XChat is working. It never worked before
21:31:21 <Deewiant> I think the ! is much better than <>, parsing problems or not
21:32:00 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Much better to parse.
21:32:01 <Quadrescence> ehirdiphone: note that << is an operator in C++, so is >>, so is <, so is >
21:32:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:32:14 <coppro> dixon: yes, much better to parse. Also uglier
21:33:39 <Quadrescence> anyway it's a fact that if someone thinks D is uglier than C++, then that someone also think bjarne stroopywoopy's mop head is hotter than raven riley after a shower
21:33:54 <Sgeo_> Everything should just use Haskell's type system :D
21:33:55 <Gregor> AnMaster: You've inspired me to actually try to learn to /play/ something by Chopin properly :P
21:34:28 <Quadrescence> Especially those things which require values to be a part of types
21:34:49 * Gregor looks up Raven Riley for comparison
21:34:53 <coppro> Haskell's type system is nice but hardly ideal
21:35:34 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_ is just amazed and etc after using haskell for one day and is professing wisdom and whatever he thinks he has obtained
21:35:57 <Sgeo_> I've been using Haskell for more than one day
21:36:09 <Sgeo_> Just haven't written a large project in it before
21:36:38 <pikhq> THOU SHALT HAVE BUT ONE CHARACTER IN YOUR MACHINE ALPHABET. LAMBDA.
21:36:38 <Sgeo_> How about, I started no later than September 26, 2009
21:36:47 <Sgeo_> And have made Haskell puns before then
21:36:54 <pikhq> LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA, LAMBDA LAMBDA.
21:37:07 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_: Oh it seems you've started about 1 day ago
21:37:35 <Sgeo_> ehirdiphone, execution-wise or concept-wise?
21:37:39 <Quadrescence> esp. since just yesterday you said "is it worth learning haskell?!?!?!"
21:40:26 <coppro> Sgeo_: Did you know that Haskell curries?
21:40:45 <pikhq> Did you know that curry is *delicious*?
21:40:48 <Sgeo_> Is there supposed to be a pun based on someone's name in there?
21:41:16 <dixon> Howard you figure that out?
21:41:26 <coppro> the guy the language is named after, even
21:41:42 <pikhq> Haskell Curry. Hooray.
21:41:57 <coppro> for whom both Haskell and currying are named
21:42:49 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:42:51 <dixon> Only an iPhone user would schoenfinkel
21:43:39 <pikhq> I think it should be "Haskelling".
21:43:47 <pikhq> "In Haskell, every function is haskelled."
21:44:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:44:16 <pikhq> Yeah, well. Schoenfinkel should change his name to Haskell.
21:44:26 <Sgeo_> Wasn't currying invented before Haskell? Haskell Curry did Currying stuff, not Haskell stuff
21:44:35 <dixon> I think programmers should stop sullying great mathematicians by naming shitty languages after them.
21:45:32 <coppro> everyone knows that things in math and science aren't named after the discoverer, but the researcher
21:45:37 <ehirdiphone> dixon: our sole resident /actual/ mathematician has his name in the haskell98 report
21:45:47 <Slereah> http://verrahrubicon.free.fr/Combinator.pdf
21:45:58 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Much to his embarrassment, I'm sure.
21:46:28 <dixon> And he's not your sole resident mathematician.
21:46:50 * Sgeo_ thinks ais523 counts as a mathematician.
21:47:04 <dixon> Not if that's secretly alise.
21:47:14 <pikhq> Sgeo_: More of a computer scientists.
21:47:33 <Sgeo_> ais523 is multiple people now?
21:47:40 <pikhq> dixon: Trolltastic.
21:47:51 <dixon> pikhq: No, I'm serious.
21:48:02 <pikhq> dixon: ... Oerjan == alise wha?
21:48:11 <dixon> pikhq: ais--whatever.
21:48:29 <pikhq> ais523 == oerjan wha?
21:48:34 <ehirdiphone> Admittedly, only Wolfram cared about the implications
21:48:53 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: ... The hell?
21:49:08 <ehirdiphone> I propose we collectively ignore dixon on the grounds that he is duck-fuckingly annoying
21:49:36 <pikhq> dixon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_(The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner) Here's ais523's Wikipedia article. :P
21:49:47 <dixon> pikhq: I asked if ais was alise?
21:51:37 <dixon> I don't hate anyone.
21:52:01 <oklopol> i have nothing against dixon but if everyone else ignores him i'll probably start talking to him here
21:52:25 <dixon> Yes, the world needs more sheep. Good call.
21:52:44 <ehirdiphone> ok operation Duck Fucking begins, im no longer highlighting dixon at all
21:53:33 <dixon> I find it somewhat humorous, ehirdiphone, that you equate ignoring me to bestiality.
21:53:51 <Quadrescence> No offense to anyone, but no academic institution would really accept this as something: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf
21:54:02 <oklopol> you wouldn't stop talking to someone if everyone else just saw your half of all your conversations?
21:54:11 <ehirdiphone> Quadrescence: he wasn't exactly trying for that
21:54:14 <oklopol> why not just talk in pm and spam your half on the channel then
21:54:24 <oklopol> well i guess that's more work
21:54:29 <ehirdiphone> he had his proof wolfram demanded shit he collated it
21:54:50 <ehirdiphone> he was just playing around to find a proof
21:54:56 <oklopol> Quadrescence: why? (i haven't read it)
21:55:09 * Sgeo_ doesn't ignore people
21:55:29 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Yeah, it's up to Wolfram's standards, not anyone sane's standards. :P
21:55:29 <dixon> oklopol: No, I'd keep talking just to annoy the people who were ignoring others. But I'm a bastard.
21:56:06 <ehirdiphone> Quadrescence: Amuway it's being published in Complex Systems
21:56:32 <ehirdiphone> Last I heard they keep asking him to change it
21:57:14 <oklopol> oh it says "I" instead of "we"
21:58:24 <dixon> I think it has more to do with the Impact headings and whatnot.
21:59:28 <ehirdiphone> he just used the default openoffice style iirc :p
22:00:23 <dixon> Really? Looks like Impact Condensed :\
22:01:12 <oklopol> (well of course it looks like shit, it's not monospaced!)
22:01:43 <dixon> Quadrescence: You're just looking at the Perl code.
22:02:13 <dixon> Math can be beautiful.
22:02:15 <Quadrescence> ehirdiphone: actually we are talking about some computer science
22:02:15 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:28 <dixon> It's even more beautiful when typeset properly.
22:03:12 <Quadrescence> i was kidding anyway since CS is a subset of math
22:03:33 <dixon> subfield, it retains its arithmetic and is closed under... I'm kidding.
22:03:42 <Quadrescence> also oklopol http://www.file-pasta.com/file/0/funktio_rec.pdf
22:04:07 <ehirdiphone> closed under actual physical COMPUTERS OMG
22:05:15 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
22:05:38 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:06:18 <oklopol> my dream is to become such a great mathematician my papers will be published in journals even though i mandate they be printed in monospace.
22:06:45 <oklopol> well actually my dream is to ever get anything published anywhere, but anyway
22:07:18 -!- charlls has joined.
22:07:26 <ehirdiphone> submit it to Annals of Mathematics then Rejecta Mathematica
22:07:41 <dixon> Keep your Masterpieces in a Personal Journal.
22:08:00 <pikhq> oklopol: What about if you demand that they be in monospace with *unrendered* TeX?
22:08:28 <oklopol> actually i'm fine with math notation
22:09:00 <dixon> Except pochhammer.
22:09:16 <ehirdiphone> I like it apart from the inconsistent/ambiguous bits
22:11:55 <dixon> And there's some abuse of notation with matrices and unit vectors too, but nothing too bad.
22:12:37 <ehirdiphone> |x| is crappy but most of the rest is fine
22:12:58 <ehirdiphone> (1 massively ambiguous 2 starter = terminator)
22:13:22 <dixon> ||x|| is slightly annoying
22:13:40 <dixon> Not so much when typeset, but in IRC, etc.
22:13:52 <ehirdiphone> ||x||, for all those negative cardinalities
22:14:27 <fungot> AnMaster: c-h b c-x o c-s eval c-s etc. automatically translating scheme to human language
22:14:36 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster: You've inspired me to actually try to learn to /play/ something by Chopin properly :P <-- hahah
22:14:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:14:53 <oklopol> if x is a set and its cardinality is negative, you need ||
22:16:02 <ehirdiphone> ||.|| looks like very squashed breasts obvs
22:16:29 <AnMaster> you don't have enough imagination
22:16:42 <ehirdiphone> Quadrescence has never seen ||.|| shaped breasts, ha!
22:17:05 <pikhq> Coreutils... GNU coreutils...
22:17:18 <pikhq> I have never before seen a 782 line "cat" program.
22:17:24 <AnMaster> Quadrescence, he knows how to use internet. I doubt he hasn't.
22:17:42 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
22:18:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have! Last time coreutils cat was mentioned in here.
22:18:29 <pikhq> HOW DO YOU MAKE A FREAKING IMPLEMENTATION OF CAT THAT COMPLEX
22:18:46 <Quadrescence> IDK ADDING ERROR CHECKING AND OTHER THINGS THAT COULD FUCK UP IN C
22:19:04 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Hah.
22:19:10 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yes, what with all the quantum state you have to emulate
22:19:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Significantly more than file concatentation.
22:19:14 <ehirdiphone> Quadrescence: 782 lines? you write really bad C
22:19:16 <AnMaster> in case someone puts it in a box
22:19:25 <oklopol> i have seen more boobs online than irl
22:19:32 <pikhq> It does rather a lot of manual buffering, as well.
22:19:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could try mmap()ing the file if possible
22:19:37 <oklopol> hope this isn't too much of a shock
22:19:39 <AnMaster> that should add some 20 lines at least
22:19:43 -!- iamtheobject has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:19:52 <dixon> oklopol: That's true of anyone. The difference being you have seen boobs IRL. The same cannot be said by ehird.
22:20:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: That would be saner than what this is doing.
22:20:12 <pikhq> Manual. Buffering.
22:20:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, then what *is* it doing
22:20:27 <dixon> cat is so well written
22:20:51 <ehirdiphone> dixon and Quadrescence are currently embracing one another discussing their next contrarian move
22:20:55 <pikhq> Quadrescence: And then there's something called "crazy".
22:21:11 <Quadrescence> pikhq: Yes, and it happens this is just written in portable, robust C
22:21:16 <ehirdiphone> they're allergic to agreeing with anyone else
22:21:17 <Quadrescence> Something that is apparently foreign to you all
22:21:37 <dixon> ehirdiphone: Careful, we may include sardonicism.
22:21:43 <AnMaster> also cat is afaik written for posix systems
22:21:50 <Quadrescence> Yes I am definitely joking because that would be a funny joke
22:22:07 <pikhq> Quadrescence: The point is that there are no C systems without buffered IO.
22:22:42 <pikhq> Fine, "almost no".
22:22:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, correction: "no hosted"
22:22:50 <Quadrescence> Most of the standard library stuff is *optional*
22:22:51 <pikhq> Probably not any one with libc.
22:22:56 <dixon> The guys ate RedHat generally know what they're doing.
22:22:59 <AnMaster> Quadrescence, freestanding ones
22:23:01 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Buffered IO is K&R.
22:23:23 <AnMaster> dixon, I don't think that is good for your digestion
22:23:29 <dixon> AnMaster: Me either :<
22:23:33 <pikhq> What I'm saying is that "dear God, it's a feature of C that is on any sane system and most insane ones."
22:24:06 <Gregor> So what's all this about maniacs thinking they're going to be using a C system where stdio is unbuffered?
22:24:07 <dixon> pikhq: And it was probably written at least 100 years ago.
22:24:10 <Quadrescence> pikhq: What I'm saying is that it's better to support insane systems to than not at all for a library that is supposed to be portable across systems
22:24:31 <pikhq> Oh, look. And this is using
22:24:44 <pikhq> *read* instead of any buffered IO.
22:24:51 <Gregor> I think that if you manage to find a system for which the C library does not have buffered stdio, that will be the LEAST of your problems.
22:25:06 <pikhq> Note that read is actually less portable than buffered IO.
22:25:07 <AnMaster> dixon, Yes it is well known Ada Lovelace wrote the first version of GNU cat!
22:25:09 <Gregor> The fact that it almost certainly won't have a filesystem, processes, or more than 256 bytes of memory are more significant.
22:25:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it using write() or?
22:25:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: read() and write().
22:26:03 <pikhq> Which are common to all POSIX systems, sure, but are not standard C.
22:26:07 <Quadrescence> It's made to be followed, not made to be seen as a piece of paper and then users decide what is sane
22:26:28 <Deewiant> Of course a specific C function is less portable than a general implementation strategy ;-P
22:26:50 <pikhq> "read" is portable than the buffered IO primitives in ISO C.
22:27:12 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Dankon.
22:27:36 <pikhq> So, all the manual buffering increases complexity and reduces portability.
22:27:50 <pikhq> That's fucking madness. Sheer fucking madness.
22:27:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, you forgot a word there
22:27:58 <AnMaster> "<pikhq> "read" is portable than the buffered IO primitives in ISO C."
22:28:05 <oklopol> portability is completely irrelevant
22:28:42 <pikhq> oklopol: More complex, less portable, harder to read, less efficient.
22:29:21 <pikhq> This buffering is also done stupidly.
22:30:20 <pikhq> Not that it *matters*, but damn.
22:30:59 <pikhq> Quadrescence: GNU.
22:32:03 <AnMaster> I wonder if they would accept a patch for it
22:32:47 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you are probably correct
22:33:06 <Quadrescence> Nah the implementation is so shitty why wouldn't any sane person accept a patch
22:33:23 <dixon> If you made a funny webcomic about it though, they might.
22:34:16 <fax> oh my god shut up
22:34:41 <pikhq> main(){while(!feof(stdin))putchar(getchar());}
22:34:43 <dixon> Quadrescence: http://codepad.org/yG9ubkE2 obv we should've switched to BSD
22:34:58 <dixon> pikhq: That's not standard C.
22:34:59 <oklopol> fax: aren't you interested in portability and buffering?
22:35:12 <Deewiant> pikhq: You may get an error that isn't EOF
22:35:22 <fax> I am only interested in telling people to shut up
22:35:43 <Deewiant> Mine'd've been {int c; while((c = getchar()) != EOF) putchar(c);}
22:35:54 <oklopol> if you want your code to be correct, you don't use C
22:36:03 <Quadrescence> dixon: that is 250 lines that is terrible inefficient etc
22:36:11 <dixon> Both aren't standard C.
22:36:56 <dixon> main() is assumed int and must return a value.
22:37:03 <fax> nonstandard C can do computation with infintesimals
22:37:11 <Deewiant> Mine was just a compound statement, not the whole thing
22:37:41 <dixon> Deewiant: But it was in { } which was assumed to be main.
22:37:50 <Deewiant> In standard C99 you don't have to explicitly return a value
22:38:12 <oklopol> both aren't standard C, but one is!
22:38:58 <fizzie> while(!feof(stdin)) putchar(getchar()); also has the problem that feof(stdin) returns true only after getchar() has actually returned EOF once, so you get an extra character at the end.
22:39:01 <oklopol> if only there were specs where you could check this stuff
22:39:07 <dixon> Further, the standard restricts main() to main(void) and main(int argc, char **argv)
22:39:13 <pikhq> In C99, when control flow reaches the end of main, the return value is 0. This is an exception to the norm.
22:39:18 <Deewiant> (Really, I left out #include <stdio.h> and int main(void) and return 0; because I couldn't be bothered to type them out)
22:39:22 <dixon> Though main() is "acceptable"
22:39:25 <dixon> But not recommended
22:39:49 <pikhq> Anyways. How's about non-retarded arguments?
22:39:57 <fax> like your mom
22:39:58 <pikhq> Love me some non-retarded arguments.
22:41:14 <oklopol> which do you think is better, O(n/\epsilon^2) or O(n^2/\epsilon)?
22:41:23 <Deewiant> (ISO/IEC 9899:TC2 5.1.2.2.3 "Program termination": "reaching the } that terminates the main function returns a value of 0.")
22:41:32 <oklopol> \epsilon is the parameter of the approximation, n is the size of input
22:41:47 <dixon> Deewiant: Yes, but still not recommended.
22:42:00 <pikhq> dixon: Yeah, shaddup.
22:42:01 <Deewiant> Your recommendations weren't under consideration. :-P
22:42:29 <fax> I recommend you all STFU
22:44:00 <Quadrescence> oh, that was in the technical corrigendum number 2, which is why dixon said otherwise, because it's not in the standard prior to that
22:44:38 <pikhq> Quadrescence: We're in agreement, then.
22:45:24 <Deewiant> Quadrescence: It's not in the TC2 changes, I'm pretty sure it was there from the original 9899 onwards...
22:45:27 <fizzie> I don't want anyone to shut up, so more oil to the flames: the } thing is in the original ISO/IEC 9899:1999 standard, too.
22:45:42 <Deewiant> Yeah, it's not in the TC1 changes either.
22:46:46 <coppro> I don't think it's 1999-specific
22:47:08 <coppro> C++98 had it, and it's something that would only have been considered as a legacy feature
22:47:19 <dixon> It certainly wasn't in C89 or C90.
22:47:47 <dixon> And I don't know why they'd put it in TC2 if it was in the original draft.
22:48:44 <Deewiant> 9899:TC2 meant the original standard with TC up to 2 applied to it.
22:49:34 <fizzie> I wonder if there's any version of "cat" that has special-case code to use sendfile(2) on systems that provide a suitable one. (I'm also not sure if any do; Linux's out_fd must be a socket, and I'm not sure it handles well the case where the amount of input bytes isn't known.)
22:50:26 <coppro> The corrigenda are individually referred to as ISO/IEC 9899/Cor.#:200#
22:50:44 <coppro> ISO/IEC 9899:1999/Cor.#:200#
22:50:57 <coppro> I do not believe there is a term to indicated the consolidated Standard
22:51:22 <Deewiant> I do not care whether it was correct, I said it's what it meant and I know what I meant :-P
22:51:42 <Deewiant> "ISO/IEC 9899:TC2" was from the header of http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf
22:51:48 <fizzie> The WG14/N1124 draft pdf has... right.
22:52:00 <fizzie> Deewiant-ninjutsu is too fast.
22:52:25 <dixon> Speaking of C99, does anyone know a compiler that implements the full standard?
22:53:09 <coppro> the FDIS for ISO/IEC 14882:1998 included the text about implicitly returning 0 after main. This is not a feature that would have been considered except as a legacy feature from C, and due to the timing it could not have been a C99-only feature
22:54:19 <dixon> coppro: It was a compiler extension long before it became standard, but it was never standard.
22:54:25 <dixon> I fucking hate GNU compilers.
22:54:46 <coppro> dixon: like I said, I cannot imagine this feature being included in C++ unless it was standard in C prior
22:55:00 <pikhq> "before it became standard, but it was never standard"
22:55:25 <ehirdiphone> oh please guys, dixon is just changing his opinions according to ours
22:55:39 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that it is not standard and that it was an extension before it was standard.
22:55:47 <pikhq> You're an idiot, and /ignore.
22:55:56 <fax> woah wait are you saying dixon is trolling
22:55:57 <dixon> pikhq: To C89, yes.
22:56:09 <fax> woah woah that is a pretty strong statement
22:56:37 <dixon> pikhq: You can't honestly think implicitly returning 0 was in the C89 standard.
22:56:40 <coppro> unfortunately, I cannot see a public list of DRs for C90
22:57:00 <coppro> btw, let us discuss C90, not C89
22:57:08 <ehirdiphone> Bet dixon doesn't even know there was a C94; well, almost.
22:58:39 <dixon> C89 and C90 are equivalent
22:59:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:59:53 <coppro> how do I generate numerals from 000-999 in bash?
23:02:27 -!- calamari has joined.
23:02:27 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: are you sure all your insults to dixon are justified?
23:03:07 -!- Mibbigal has joined.
23:03:54 * coppro wants a 'wgrep' command
23:04:01 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:04:23 <dixon> fax: And I wasn't trolling. It's well-known that several compiler extensions were in place before and after the C89/90 standards were ratified. Allowing 'void main()' and 'implicitly returning 0' were part of those extensions. They're still enabled in the GNU compiler by default. Yes, C99 made this 'standard' behavior, but it's still not recommended. Your functions should always return a value if they're stated to.
23:04:25 <fizzie> But seq(1) is not POSIX! How can you suggest such a thing!
23:04:29 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Sorry, I like for(int i = ...)
23:04:34 <pikhq> fizzie: Nor's bash.
23:04:54 <pikhq> int i = 0;for(...) is dumb.
23:05:02 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, though bash was already given in the question.
23:05:20 <pikhq> Anyways. Imma go do something more intelligent than talk to you.
23:05:32 <dixon> Like feign intelligence.
23:06:01 <dixon> The irony of him ignoring me because his misunderstood what I said is just precious.
23:06:01 <Quadrescence> Anyway, I am going to assume you've never written a compiler before and wouldn't understand why declaring variables at the start of a block is good, and also beneficial for those who maintain.
23:06:37 <oklopol> i don't understand it at all
23:07:08 <oklopol> well maybe i wouldn't understand it either
23:07:40 <oklopol> but i know for a fact maintainability is really uninteresting
23:08:20 <oklopol> if you wanna write big programs, you're just fucking stupid imo
23:08:27 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:08:35 <oklopol> why not write small ones and not write big ones
23:08:37 <fizzie> The maintainability thing is also debatable; a for loop index variable isn't that much more unclear, no matter whether it's defined where the loop start or at the beginning of some arbitrary block where the loop happens to be in.
23:09:19 <Quadrescence> fizzie: suppose you are changing variables from int to long in order to use arrays larger than 4GB
23:09:28 <Quadrescence> But god damnit you can't seem to find that bug in your program
23:09:33 <fax> programming language trolls handbook, page 12, section 3: "maintainability is a good one to use because if anyone disagrees you can just tell them they haven't worked on any REAL programs"
23:09:57 <dixon> fizzie: You haven't worked on any REAL programs.
23:10:13 <fizzie> Quadrescence: Shouldn't you be using size_t to begin with?-) (There's a huge mess of a thread in comp.lang.c unmoderated about that.)
23:10:27 <calamari> I work on a "real" program, in development since 1977.. and it is the biggest pipe of shit code I've ever seen
23:10:39 <dixon> Why would you use size_t for loop indexes? It can be negative.
23:10:47 <dixon> unsigned int all the way, baby.
23:10:54 <fizzie> size_t is unsigned, you know.
23:11:02 -!- coppro has joined.
23:11:12 <Quadrescence> And noone argue with me saying my situation is impractical because it indeed is!
23:12:55 <dixon> fizzie: Can't you just play along? This is all part of an elaborate plot to annoy the hell out of ehirdiphone.
23:13:07 <calamari> however, having said that.. the program works well.. but you just have to be a little flexible and not assume a single programming style throughout
23:13:35 <fax> the biggest problem with programs like that is idiots that can't be flexible
23:13:56 <fax> they spend years trying to save themselves from getting into fights by making up 'guidlines' and stuff
23:14:20 <dixon> (fax has never followed a guideline before)
23:14:59 <calamari> guidelines change.. so I don't see how that helps long term
23:15:29 <Quadrescence> Well, guidelines never work out in the open source world where there are no dictators
23:15:35 <dixon> calamari: You have to be like the ISO people and have your guidelines change once a decade or so.
23:15:44 <calamari> yes.. short term it helps but long term you're still going to have a mess
23:16:10 <dixon> Then it all kinda smooths out, because only one compiler (Sun, apparently) fully supports your changes 11 years after you make them.
23:17:12 <dixon> But if you find yourself unstandardized, then you get the mess of incompatibility that is D, Python, Java, etc.
23:17:18 <Quadrescence> hahahahahahhahahaha i found a video of fax on youtube
23:18:00 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:18:41 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
23:18:53 <dixon> I wonder how they talked their mom into doing this.
23:19:15 -!- augur has joined.
23:19:30 <fax> shut up augur
23:19:47 <dixon> Someone fax hates more than me? Pleasure to meet you.
23:20:08 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:20:38 <dixon> Nevermind, sad face and lack of retort means he's a pussy.
23:20:42 <Quadrescence> dixon: oblique raises [in the] neuromuscular junction
23:21:00 <dixon> Quadrescence: Bicept Lift Ankle Krossover
23:21:30 * Sgeo_ tries to again focus on Brainfuck
23:22:17 <ehirdiphone> Do you think we would have talked to you if we had anything interesting to discuss?
23:22:35 <fizzie> oklopol: Aw, I was hoping that to be some sort of "pants of X" special-pants thing.
23:22:49 <Quadrescence> oklopol: this is also worth seeing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MjTb5A68VA&feature=channel
23:23:03 <augur> oklopol is MINE >O
23:23:19 <augur> Quadrescence: maybe. if you're nice.
23:23:25 <Quadrescence> um but augur you are mine therefore by the law of transitivity...................................................
23:23:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:23:35 <augur> since when am i yours >|
23:23:48 <augur> also, possession is not a transitive relation.
23:23:58 <augur> infact, it's antitransitive
23:24:00 <Quadrescence> uh since I beat some sense into you about rewrite rules
23:24:20 <augur> you're the one who was all like "yeah ok i see your point ill take that into consideration"
23:24:44 <oklopol> "ehirdiphone: Do you think we would have talked to you if we had anything interesting to discuss?" <<< what do you mean?
23:24:49 <Quadrescence> Well yeah I had to be respectful since last time I was not respectful fax got super pissed and began to talk shit about me
23:25:01 <oklopol> are there older women in that vid too?
23:25:57 <oklopol> ah younger women and pencils with faces. you know what i like man
23:27:54 <oklopol> pedopen's signature of approval
23:28:57 <dixon> http://image.fpsbanana.com/ico/sprays/pedobear4dzsmalll.jpg
23:31:02 -!- Mibbigal has changed nick to mibygl.
23:31:39 <dixon> Anyone have a suggestion for a good high-school level algebra book?
23:31:55 <oklopol> my suggestion is no one learns high school level algebra
23:32:34 <oklopol> everyone is their own author in that one
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23:33:50 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:34:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:34:30 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:35:39 <dixon> Welcome back, Quadrescence.
23:36:17 <oklopol> don't worry oerjan we noticed you too
23:37:52 <oerjan> it says i have the +i flag, why isn't it working?
23:40:54 <oerjan> no, i am not ashamed to be mentioned in the haskell report. although the reasons _are_ trivial corrections.
23:41:06 * oerjan skips the rest of the logs
23:43:07 <dixon> oerjan: It's alright, we know The Truth(R)(TM)(C)
23:43:15 <oklopol> oerjan: you shouldn't, there was this fascinating conversation about all sorts of things
23:44:11 <dixon> Yes, it was wonderful. Especially the part about measure spaces, linear coding, and compiler extensions.
23:44:48 <oklopol> actually part of both conversations was about variables
23:45:16 <dixon> They're an important topic.
23:45:28 <fax> variables don't exist
23:46:13 <dixon> Your mood is a variable.
23:53:42 <fizzie> I, uh. Do complain to me if you feel like what will follow is a miscarriage of justice or anything such. I don't promise I'll be awake very much longer, though; but then again, this is just an IRC channel, not the end of the world.
23:54:01 <fizzie> Also preliminary apologies if I mess up chanserv manipulatations somehow. It's amazing what I can mess up.
23:54:12 <Sgeo_> Hm. Besides dealing with consecutive + and -, and > and <, what optimizations can I easily make
23:54:40 <Quadrescence> Sgeo_: printing using printf or equivalent, and not simple char in and char out
23:54:41 <Sgeo_> Obviously, two loops means the second can be discarded
23:55:10 <Sgeo_> Quadrescence, I'm talking about manipulating the BF at this point, not the interpreter
23:55:51 <Sgeo_> optimize :: [BFCmd] -> [BFCmd]
23:56:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
23:56:16 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Chanserv is hard. Let's go shopping!
23:56:34 <fizzie> Yes, I don't really know why I bother with it anyway.
23:56:44 -!- dixon has joined.
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23:57:33 <fizzie> Quadrescence: I'm trying, I'm trying. It's not as easy as it looks like.
23:57:58 <fizzie> You have a very difficult nickname to spell.
23:58:23 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
23:58:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +b *!*@unaffiliated/quadrescence.
23:58:33 <fizzie> That "akick" thing is really brain-dead.
23:58:49 <fizzie> Why can't it just kickban people, instead of just adding them to some sort of mysterious list that is only checked at join-time.
23:59:26 <ehirdiphone> Have you considered therapy for your op allergy? :D
23:59:40 <fizzie> Maybe there's some sort of topical cream I could use.