< 1269648031 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269648315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what Ilari thinks about energy drinks and caffeine pills
< 1269648347 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269648450 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Diophant> mathematica ((U "x" :\=: U "y") :/\: (U "x" :>: I 13) :/\: (U "y" :>=: I 7)) < 1269648454 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FindInstance[(((((((x + (-1 * y)) ^ 2) + (-1 * (x1 + 1))) ^ 2) + ((((13 + x2) + 1) + (-1 * x)) ^ 2)) ^ 2) + (((7 + x3) + (-1 * y)) ^ 2))==0 &&x>=0&&y>=0&&x1>=0&&x2>=0&&x3>=0,{x, y, x1, x2, x3},Integers]" < 1269648468 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica takes about 10 seconds then it finds: x -> 16, y -> 11 < 1269648778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I understand and accept that my choice of cryopreservation may affect the type and extend of medical care I receive. Some physicians and medical facilities may refuse to treat or admit me because of my cryopreservation arrangements or may require that I be transferred to another, perhaps less suitable medical facility for treatment and care." < 1269648785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269648790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of.. unacceptable, really < 1269648871 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269648877 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is running '(I 2 :|: U "x") :/\: (I 3 :|: U "x") :/\: (I 5 :|: U "x") :/\: (U "x" :>: I 1)'
< 1269648882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is taking a long long time < 1269648897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J? < 1269648937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it means that x is divisible by 2 3 and 5, and it's greater than 1 < 1269649081 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269649249 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269649280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lie! < 1269649283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1269649290 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freudian slit. < 1269649320 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have asked mathematica to find me a number which is divisible by 2, 3 and 5. and is greater than 1... < 1269649323 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "The methods available to FindInstance are insufficient to find the \ < 1269649326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :requested instances or prove they do not exist." < 1269649338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1269649416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, J is slow, o.O < 1269649426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even _I_ know an answer < 1269649428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DID YOU TRY 2*3*5?? < 1269649449 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, that code's Mathematica? < 1269649455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen Mathematica code before < 1269649473 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's not J < 1269649497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1269649497 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x1, x2, x3, x4, (((x - 2 x1)^2 + (x - 3 x2)^2)^2 + (x - 5 x3)^2)^2 + (2 - x + x4)^2 <--- this expresses that x is divisible by 2, 3, 5 & is greater than 1 < 1269649508 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mathematica gave up on it < 1269649532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid thing < 1269649585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, try reduce? < 1269649594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reduce that is < 1269649599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you do it in J? < 1269649704 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... I sent a fax to my secretary. < 1269649726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, having your own secretary < 1269649771 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was just to test the IRC thing. < 1269649783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what irc thing? < 1269649795 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269649825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269649899 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269650034 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in my client, it highlights stuff. < 1269650186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stuff? < 1269650194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your own nick? < 1269650198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were just annoying fax? < 1269650250 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Not particularly. < 1269650308 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did everyone else find out about esolangs? < 1269650368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really → < 1269650500 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, bye. < 1269650502 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269650782 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found about it when seeing a humorous drawing involving INTERCAL < 1269651761 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269651898 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269652363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269652675 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269657003 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269658474 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269659120 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269659257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269659530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269661705 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269661988 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269665621 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269667359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269667439 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269667460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH INTERNET HATES ME < 1269667537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lag: 31.91 < 1269667554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAAAAH < 1269667708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO HIT THE INTERNET-SUCKS BUTTON < 1269667789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269667796 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that is what that button does ._. < 1269668240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269668579 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269668620 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blames Pez.. err, Quadrescence
< 1269668643 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only started happening since people started using Haskell. < 1269668661 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know correlation doesn't imply causation--except when it does. < 1269669724 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269671742 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269672328 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269672670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees a lack of alise. OH NOES
< 1269672814 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope he's made it to Sweden < 1269675460 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269676799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269676800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269678769 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269681354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269682617 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269682972 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269684988 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269685684 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-1-53.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269685806 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269688943 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269688965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a dispatch / it numbers five. / Every weekend / the #esoteric jive. Also: worst poem ever. < 1269689214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:02:33 * alise gets in TARDIS; destination: Friday. < 1269689218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh snap, I caused a pime taradox. < 1269689294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:29:53 I have my own story about teleportation: One guy makes up a new kind of teleporter but something goes wrong. Now we lost the harp. But that's OK, because it caused other things too which are beneficial to the situation anyways. The End < 1269689302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/speechless < 1269689316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:12:00 * Sgeo fails to see "Cryonics" on WhatsTheHarm < 1269689322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people see cryonics as a harmless scam... < 1269689347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people, of course, usually taking the most mediocrely dumb opinion they can. < 1269689438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:54:11 the quote's from , which somehow still exists, and which is interesting (although I don't know if I agree with it or not yet) < 1269689442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, not the OOP guy! < 1269689446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, anti-oop < 1269689606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's everyone's favourite binary lambda calculus encoding < 1269689650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I liked John Tromp's especially because it has a 210 bit self-interpreter, but it doesn't seem to be very pure LC to me < 1269689667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cause it isn't directly lambdas and stuff < 1269689691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait it is < 1269689694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read the io section < 1269689729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey tromp invented exactly my notation < 1269689738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well more or less < 1269689747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00e = \e < 1269689751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01fx = f x < 1269689773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1^i0 = i < 1269689782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hmm < 1269689793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you need an extra 1 with i? < 1269689805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise, 000 ... well actually it is unambiguous < 1269689818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of irks me that we have 0s at the start though, I don't like that < 1269689826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 0 and 000 are distinct programs... < 1269689831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding 1 at the start solves that but that's ugly < 1269689892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again numbers outside of a lambda aren't allowed < 1269689896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we don't need them to be valid on their own < 1269689900 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269689931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can do < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100e = \e < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :101fx = f x < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11(n 1s)0 = n < 1269689945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's verbose... < 1269690514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1269690515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269690692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:52:58 but a way to implement arrays ovcer brainfuck < 1269690718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_0, 1, x_1, 1, x_2, 1, ..., x_(n-1), 1, x_n, 0 < 1269690754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:01 I IS NOW 10 < 1269690754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:03 20 < 1269690755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:08 NOT 10, 20. < 1269690756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1269690759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop making me feel inferior < 1269690763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:00:05 Why are all these younger people smarter than I am? < 1269690765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAUSE YOU SUCK < 1269690830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:16:12 Yes but reading a book on paper > reading a book on screen < 1269690831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebook < 1269690925 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.tiscali.it/magazzinocartoniani/ Hey look, old computer ROMs. < 1269691048 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1269691190 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1269691320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fax < 1269691332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i has a ti 83 emulator < 1269691342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i note that it cannot handle me pressing + on the keboard < 1269691439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1269691501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is a bitch to use < 1269691602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :srsly < 1269691627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what category do you know < 1269691639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even think ti calculators can do symbolic stuff < 1269691643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: category theory? < 1269691647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1269691655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a lot at all. and what i do know is mostly how it works in CS < 1269691683 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got this book called Computational Category Theory, and it implements all the stuff it talks about in SML < 1269691696 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's realy cool < 1269691702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds nice, apart from SML :P < 1269691715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The TI-89 can do some; that's why it wasn't allowed for exam-use at school. < 1269691720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pah i'm gonna make my own calculators < 1269691723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with blackjack, and hookers < 1269691729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: downloading a rom as we speak < 1269691753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't as good as a cas i don't wnat it :P < 1269691766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably won't be. < 1269691770 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269691770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh archive is invalid < 1269691778 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do you catually know what SML is... < 1269691794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes < 1269691802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't like it much as a language, personal taste < 1269691807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it like one of the most important functional languages in CS historyr... < 1269691812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1269691817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i respect it for its innovation < 1269691819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269691820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I do Lisp 1.5 < 1269691823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't like Lisp 1.5, either < 1269691824 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269691838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic is pretty historically relevant too < 1269691840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd certainly choose it over the abomination that is OCaml. < 1269691850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe for slightly different reasons < 1269691855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaaaaaaat < 1269691859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCAML IS EVEN BETER < 1269691873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are of course joking. < 1269691904 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: let me explain why ocaml is awesome in one word: categorical abstact machine < 1269691912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: alise do you catually know what SML is..." <<< thought "catually" was some sort of category theory pun at first < 1269691914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, that is sweet. < 1269691918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the actual language I do not like. < 1269691932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who carse about 'actual language' that's for employees :P < 1269691947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh :P < 1269691961 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I've been trying to do cats in coq but I failed a lot < 1269691969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat = lol cat < 1269691976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a catamorphism over the lol functor < 1269691995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG MY COQ IS FULL OF CATS < 1269692001 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269692010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hawt < 1269692012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAANYWAY < 1269692012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ it < 1269692029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how i made a penis joke after alise's sophisticated category theory one < 1269692034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about representing infinity as (\h -> h) but I'm pretty sure the basic ordinal type you do in functoinal langs is that isn't it < 1269692049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good fax made one too < 1269692060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, basically representing (lim k->inf e) as (\k -> e) < 1269692075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (lim k->n e) as some sort of scaling so that infinity = n < 1269692118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:30:14 also I assume it was in the kitchen? As you (or I at least) never take any fluids near a computer for safety reason < 1269692120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1269692126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zorn's lemma is a pretty magical tool < 1269692128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love it < 1269692129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your thinkpad has a sophisticated drainage system < 1269692138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is zorn's lemma implied by intensional choice or just extensional? < 1269692142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know well-ordering is extensional < 1269692149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what those terms mean < 1269692153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enlighten me < 1269692169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zorns LEMMON LOL < 1269692174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1269692176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html intensional choice lets you have ∀ a:A. ∃ b:B. R a b then ∃ f:A ⇒ B. ∀ a:A. R a (f a). < 1269692179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without well-ordering < 1269692195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(intensional choice is provable in type theory, extensional isn't) < 1269692198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones of those are exists' < 1269692209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still blind < 1269692234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intensional choice: < 1269692245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If FORALL a:A. EXISTS b:B. R a b < 1269692257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then EXISTS f:(A->B). FORALL a:A. R a (f a) < 1269692273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is provable in type theory. < 1269692276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right i guess it's kinda obvious what the quantifiers are based on what choice is < 1269692287 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what's extensional < 1269692310 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes sense because a proof of forall is a function, and exists is a pair b & proof of R a b < 1269692312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll still not be able to answer because i haven't seen zorn's lemma derived from choice < 1269692326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are just doing an eta switch thingy, then rewiggling the proof < 1269692336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is stated above is the intensional axiom of choice. It is equivalent to saying that every surjective function has a right inverse. The extensional axiom of choice states that if (A, ~A) and (B, ~B) are setiods (a type and equivalence relation on that type), and R is a relation on A and B respecting the equivalence relations, then if FORALL a:A. EXISTS b:B. R a b then EXIST f:(A -> B). FORALL a:A. R a (f a). Further more f will respect the equivalen < 1269692337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ce relations. The extensional axiom of choice is equivalent to saying that for every surjective extensional function there exists a right inverse that is also extensional. < 1269692338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hope this helps" < 1269692358 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what zorns lemon woudl be in type theory? < 1269692389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99% of the words are things that we DO NOT SPEAK OF in type theory < 1269692396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zorn's lemma is equivalent to the well-ordering theorem and the axiom of choice, in the sense that any one of them, together with the Zermelo�Fraenkel axioms of set theory, is sufficient to prove the others < 1269692402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so zorn's lemma is extensional choice < 1269692410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so type theory doesn't have zorn's lemma < 1269692419 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in set theory it is.. but in type theory thery may be stratified more preciesly < 1269692433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorn%27s_lemma#Sketch_of_the_proof_of_Zorn.27s_lemma_.28from_the_axiom_of_choice.29 < 1269692482 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I'm having universe inconsisency problems but the bitch aint one < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: true < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "probably" < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck i ran out of mobile broadband < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone hear me? < 1269692510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:26:03 do you program Haskell a lot? < 1269692510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:26:09 never heard of it < 1269692511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trollaxin' < 1269692519 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:30:40 coppro, that's not possible in haskell < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double trollaxin' < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:02 fax: yes, it can. There's a particularly elegant solution to this problem < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:07 it says 'purely functional' < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:16 yes. You work on IO objects < 1269692564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:24 oh it's object oriented? < 1269692564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:25 I can do that < 1269692565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha you fucking asshole < 1269692592 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I thought he was playing along with me but he was actually oblivious :/ < 1269692604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1269692608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a disastair on so many levels < 1269692623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact I would go so far as to call it a disastaircase < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:30 fax: you obviously know nothing about Haskell, so stop making these kinds of assertions < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDD < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:39:26 coppro [] is nondeterministic search < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:39:43 hey, thanks, fax, you helped me make up my mind! /ignore it is! < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, actually. < 1269692695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're an idiot. < 1269692695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I wouldn't have much confidence in fax's ability to Haskell afte rthe above. < 1269692699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay so basically you just take bigger and bigger elements and have the sequence be longer than the set's size < 1269692712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i can fill in the AoC details < 1269692773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my opinion on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.23: you're all whiny cunts, STFU < 1269692779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269692809 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I _still_ don't get the "search" part of [] < 1269692823 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, uh .. you could have asked me < 1269692847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:37:14 oklopol: then it's no different from any other form of government, just with more paperwork < 1269692847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from anarchy < 1269692860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/alise/fax/ < 1269692875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you take a cartesian product, you try out all the combinations. the monad lets you do with nice syntax < 1269692882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do this < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:14:59 basically, you return an infinitely big lookup table listing what outputs should go with all possible inputs, allowing for interspersings of them < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you mean Input -> Output. < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well, to be honest, trolling so convincingly that you don't know Haskell and /then/ making authoritative statements about Haskell Doesn't Really Work. < 1269692967 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do a <- [a1,a2,a3] ; b <- [b1,b2] ; p a b <=> a(a1). a(a2). a(a3). b(b1). b(b2). ?- a(A), b(B), p(A,B). < 1269693016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it okay that i still find big numbers scary... there was this proof about varieties that starts with us finding a sub*set* of this class that can still be arbitrarily infinite... and then we define m to be a cardinal upper bound for all those infinities, which is possible because there's only a set of them and not a class < 1269693021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like woooooah < 1269693029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well big numbrs < 1269693031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*numbers < 1269693033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like big sets < 1269693036 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity is not a number!! < 1269693037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, too much of the math here makes me go wooosh < 1269693042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish less did < 1269693054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are infinite cardinals < 1269693059 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo did you read the finite calculus stuff? < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Sgeo jumped to conclusions and coppro did the most annoying thing ever (rubbing in /ignores) < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff is coming in spurts i think i need to top up mah broadband < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid costly POS < 1269693075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff coming in spurts for me too < 1269693079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, finite calculus stuff? < 1269693082 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait maybe fax was joking again < 1269693084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269693127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: finite calculus is when your integrals only take a finite amount of time to calculate < 1269693150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo could have asked you and you could also have explained rather than saying how stupid he is :P < 1269693150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neutrality achieved by blaming everyone in equal amounts! < 1269693155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa huge flood < 1269693179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269693193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 wanna se my depedend type < 1269693194 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 sure < 1269693194 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 -!- alise [~alise___@212.183.140.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving] < 1269693195 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1269693199 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269693209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thing i don't like about binary LC < 1269693214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false is more complex than true < 1269693216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of de bruijn < 1269693218 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna see your dependent type too < 1269693226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't know humans had types < 1269693229 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda racist < 1269693238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can there be integrals that take an infinite time to calculate but don't have infinitity or neg infinity as the.. bounds [not sure of the terminology] < 1269693240 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to #morphism < 1269693267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think yes, for any sensible definition of that < 1269693296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say the integral from zero to zero < 1269693323 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that not simply 0? < 1269693443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd really have to define all this < 1269693461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was assuming we'd use some sort of rules to find the expression to be integrated < 1269693534 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- this is where I learned about finite calculus www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf < 1269693568 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might misunderstand it as talking about something completely different from what i said, i suggest you read harder in that case < 1269693675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes we could easily use notation in here
< 1269693693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use those \ thingies < 1269693697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I wish we have proper math in IRC :( < 1269693710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be so nice to be abel to type with \mathbb and \mathcal < 1269693738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really like most of math syntax, but what i hate even more is that most of math is in plain english < 1269693750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you could do that more easiersy < 1269693766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just have an irc client plugggin < 1269693770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks out for $...$ < 1269693775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe $$...$$ to reduce clashes < 1269693783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the rest of the nerds who know latex could just read that < 1269694188 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nerds don't exist < 1269694360 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269694593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come unicode doesn't have ~> < 1269694593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269694594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is trying Elfen Lied
< 1269694594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit.. gory for my tastes < 1269694601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a perfect function arrow over setoids < 1269694718 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ↝ doesn't quite cut it? (Admittedly it points a bit to the wrong direction.) < 1269694757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~↝ < 1269694768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the "I don't know where I'm going" arrow, ↬ < 1269694776 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dangerous curve :P < 1269694815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about ⟿ ? < 1269694825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "LONG RIGHTWARDS SQUIGGLE ARROW". < 1269694833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loks like a maggot < 1269694912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the WAVE ARROW POINTING DIRECTLY RIGHT, ⤳ < 1269694929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have that much of a wave there, at least in this font, just a hump. < 1269694942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they just felt that the "HUMP ARROW" didn't sound quite as good. < 1269694958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ↝ would work, I suppose. < 1269694978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⤳ could do with a bit more of a wave, yeah. < 1269695142 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269695254 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269695277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1269695306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/VKAiL.png < 1269695679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269696005 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269696072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:33:47 No, the notion that medical technology will be able to revive you. < 1269696081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole premise is that non-information-theoretic death is not really death, which is true < 1269696093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all about tradeoffs < 1269696151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, there are some non-monetary costs too. No autopsies, organ donation is questionable [I'm going to contact Alcor or something and ask], and worst: Do Not Resscussitate once the standby team's there < 1269696160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ask ya, who'd want to be revived without a soul < 1269696163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1269696170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autopsies -- who cares? < 1269696188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Organ donation -- Well, cryonics is selfish in the first place: I value /my/ life < 1269696189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol uh.. hate to break this to ya... < 1269696196 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"soul" doesn't exist < 1269696198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: o, the troller is trolled < 1269696201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269696207 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ alise < 1269696212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so you thought < 1269696221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: and so what about DNR?? you're only gonna be frozen if there's nothing that can be done < 1269696224 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-!- oklopol [~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by getting trolled so hard] < 1269696327 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269696411 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269696513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: people who don't have souls don't have free will because free will comes from souls by deffinition i have free will because if i want i can do whatever i want therefore i have a soul < 1269696540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logic is irrefutable < 1269696590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free will is a stupid concept from the dark ages < 1269696618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so fucking sick of 'atheists' who believe in stupid shit like determinism or free will < 1269696635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not see if i didn't have free will then i couldn't lift this cup unless there was DETERMINISTIC PROCESS in my brain who does it but i can do it if i want or not do it so i must have a free will < 1269696665 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol have I showed you my conscious program? < 1269696682 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { puts("I am conscious!"); return EXIT_SUCCESS; } < 1269696686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean maybe you don't have free will because you're a ignorance person but i do i'm a thinker logician < 1269696693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you are such a fucking idiot < 1269696698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is trolling you so obviously < 1269696704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise your the idiot < 1269696710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise.... TWICE < 1269696713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269696714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're/ < 1269696716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're. < 1269696721 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're < 1269696726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no in fact she's trolling *you* < 1269696730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269696734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you were both trolling me < 1269696742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting too complicated < 1269696746 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nobody is trolling anyone < 1269696754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my soul can't take this complicatedness < 1269696755 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we're all secretly serious but wont admit it < 1269696809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find most of the crazy theories sensible, i think i could seriously believe any of them, but belief is pretty irrelevant < 1269696819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what crazy theories?? < 1269696835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soul, finitism, infinite sets, that reality exists, etc < 1269696886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer to go with the flow and believe what others seem to < 1269696919 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing is people who hide behind the guise of 'formalism' to attack REAL philosophies < 1269696947 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I know how people who thing being bisexual is 'cheating' feel < 1269696963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269696977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you elaborate on the analogy, i'm sort of slow < 1269696980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love people who criticise bisexuality in that way, it's hilarious < 1269696985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sex. there are _RULES!_ < 1269697026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bisexuality makes you twice more sexable, wanking makes you infinitely sexable < 1269697034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1269697125 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, people who pretend to be formalists.. but then they attack platonism or whatever. It's like "way to be a formalist" .. < 1269697304 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like people who think they can program in every language but in honesty what they do is pretend they're using the IO monad in haskell or whatever < 1269697329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is there a ≈> arrow, maybe? < 1269697330 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they think of state as being some "object" that is implicitly passed around < 1269697330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work too < 1269697374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah those people probably don't have souls < 1269697527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: btw shouldn't there be another setoid arrow < 1269697536 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you eman < 1269697537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean < 1269697538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from one setoid to a different one so that if a~b then f(a)~f(b) < 1269697546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to from a setoid to some random type so that if a~b then f(a)=f(b) < 1269697557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the original was < 1269697561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with <-> < 1269697564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a ~ b ==> f(a) <-> f(b) earlier, to show that you could use different equivalences < 1269697564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the right < 1269697565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is more general since you can have ~ be = < 1269697570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ah. < 1269697587 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but alise if you use quotients then you can just use = everywhere < 1269697594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ~ b <=> [a] = [b] < 1269697607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [a] is the equivalence class of a < 1269697620 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269697646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: quotients imply extensional choice < 1269697655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't want them < 1269697673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but say you had some development that used quotients < 1269697686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what to call the constructor A -> A/~
< 1269697693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be an automatic elaboration that turns it all into the equivalent setoid development no? < 1269697705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sure < 1269697714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where does choice come into it? < 1269697716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's the bending = that makes choice happen < 1269697723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because = is a very strong statement... < 1269697733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we elaborate it out we no longer use = < 1269697734 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a] = [b] just means a ~ b < 1269697744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: all I know is that it has been proved < 1269697749 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llol < 1269697757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I proved that 4 = 2 < 1269697780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: < 1269697780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The key difference between set theory and type theory is that in set theory one can form quotient sets for arbitrary equivalence relations. In intensional type theory, one cannot form quotient types. If one could form quotient types, then one could reduce an extensional relation to an intensional relation on quotient types. Then one could use the intensional axiom of choice to get the extensional choice function. < 1269697803 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get your point < 1269697805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't bring myself to argue with roconnor he's too cool < 1269697817 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1269697832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1269697837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus < 1269697838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more information see EM + EXT- + ACint is Equivalent to ACext by Jesper Carlstr�m. < 1269698005 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269700491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/889672.txt?key=yr84tq66b2gw65xcuq2o3a < 1269700505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Setoids, fuck yeah. < 1269700661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bow to my superiority! You only know Haskell! (Now pikhq will learn dependent type theory in three days.) < 1269701278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't seem to see any squiggliness in the double-line arrows. :/ < 1269701293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Aww. < 1269701296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well; what I have now is aceptable. < 1269701348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But when you *really* want to point right, there's the three-arrow ⇶, and the triple-arrow ⇛. And if you don't mind pointing up; the quadruple-arrow, ⟰. (There's also a rightwards quadruple arrow, ⭆, but my fonts don't have that one.) < 1269701374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⟰ - the penis hut arrow. < 1269701920 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269702441 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269702612 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269702904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : your thinkpad has a sophisticated drainage system <-- it does. a) That does not mean my desktop keyboard has one as well. b) It is meant for when things go wrong, there is no reason to increase the risk of having to put it to use. < 1269702929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drinking near a computer is completely harmless. < 1269702967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm fairly sure the design for the drainage system started with "I hate it when I spill drinks on my laptop and it gets fucked up, we should make it safe to drink" < 1269702985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you just have really wobbly hands < 1269703604 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269703889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1269703899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1269705182 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269705736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269706353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269706480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now fax has dragged me into using coq :( < 1269709265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success! < 1269710205 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269710216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haw haw < 1269710219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise loves the coq. < 1269710263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I do. < 1269710761 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269711015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric: home of ... < 1269712931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: THOU < 1269713131 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliζe < 1269713207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: BOW TO MY SUPERIORITY YOU KNOW ONLY ENGLISH! でも、何も日本語で言うつもり！悪人ね！ < 1269713271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow 言 is nice < 1269713297 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :言 -- japanese for beehive < 1269713392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese for "say", actually. < 1269713412 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1269713413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Chinese. < 1269713426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't redefine it < 1269713439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1269713448 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ζ^ < 1269713449 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : - < 1269714170 0 :mibygl!~184a5c0c@gateway/web/freenode/x-vuznxoqxfbazahum JOIN :#esoteric < 1269714209 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm pondering making a Unix MOO. No surprise there. < 1269714292 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm thinking it might be a good idea to set processes' UIDs to random junk, and then set files' owners to the same random junk so that the processes can access the files. < 1269714315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting... < 1269714322 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything wrong with doing such a thing? < 1269714405 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes a user, anyway? Just an entry in /etc/passwd? < 1269714549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269714554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus /etc/shadow nowadays < 1269714603 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does anything bad happen if the /etc/passwd entry is missing? < 1269714711 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... if things try and look up things like username, yes < 1269715183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, /etc/passwd doesn't make a user on most NIXen. PAM just uses /etc/passwd to check users. < 1269715194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAM can do other things for that. < 1269715326 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269715376 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715395 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715995 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269716211 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1269716248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity! = sqrt(2pi) < 1269716263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how 1+1+1+1... = -1/2 < 1269716503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is something wrong with the reasoning here... < 1269716516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is a decent argument that 9 recurring = -1, though) < 1269717041 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269717394 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-45-47.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269718483 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there's a reddit comment I wanted to link you to < 1269718498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: why don't you link me to it then? < 1269718512 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I don't remember it offhand < 1269718514 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the logs < 1269718546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on which day? < 1269718554 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today/yesterday < 1269718666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bioxv/while_thinking_about_turing_machines_i_found_that/c0mypya ? < 1269718717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I prefer alise's concept; create a device with an extensible tape, that asks a human to give it more tape if it runs out < 1269718718 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1269718734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, when did I say that? < 1269718746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ages ago < 1269718750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I just want you to know that Coq is the bes tthing ever < 1269718754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I think it was you < 1269718756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is Coq anyway? < 1269718756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1269718762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A programming language / proof assistant. < 1269718767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practical: the four-colour theorem has been formalised in it. < 1269718776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a weird theorem < 1269718779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's French, so they don't mean no harm with that slightly iffy name. < 1269718779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, a weird proof < 1269718799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: My first project in it has been - with fax's help - making an stdlib from scratch for it. < 1269718809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been smooth sailing. < 1269718835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been having more thoughts about "splint done right" < 1269718840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the typical proof assistant conveniences: tactic-based proving but also tactic-based definitions, so you basically choose a bunch of different ways to mangle data/existing proofs/etc and it applies it to the right stuff and constructs the huge lambda-expression for you. < 1269718846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has helped me define quite a few functions. < 1269718851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent up the wazoo, naturally. < 1269718860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdas are one thing that tends to need sugar < 1269718865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or in the case of esolangs, antisugar) < 1269718872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... syntactic salt? < 1269718892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, proofs are lambda-expressions < 1269718899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and propositions are types; curry-howard) < 1269718904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tactics let you write it a lot nicer < 1269718922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Theorem Identity_leibniz {x y : T} {P : T -> Prop} : Identity x y -> P x -> P y. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros x y P H H′. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : destruct H. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assumption. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Qed. < 1269718942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should logread more often < 1269718949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intros binds all your assumptions to variables; x and y are the Ts, P is the T -> Prop, H is the identity proof, H' is the P x proof < 1269719002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:39 < alise> It's French, so they don't mean no harm with that slightly iffy name. < 1269719007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION catches oerjan in a butterfly net -----\XXX/
< 1269719017 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's French so they do everything they possibly can to mock our stupid language :P < 1269719038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've wanted to do that unexpectedly for months, but never found an opportunity at which simultaneously I was thinking about it, and it would be sufficiently unexpected < 1269719044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make an awful Spanish Inquisition < 1269719193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq is totally unwashed < 1269719200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have seen the *same* multimeter display, without me touching anything on it displaying: 1.010 V, 1.01 V, 1010 mV < 1269719221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy to explain, it was an autoranging multimeter with substantial hysteresis involved (so that you could actually read the number) < 1269719222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION buzzes frantically around in the net
< 1269719222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and why did you mention this? < 1269719228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to explain it < 1269719232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269719234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269719238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well tell me then < 1269719243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did < 1269719246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's easy to explain, it was an autoranging multimeter with substantial hysteresis involved (so that you could actually read the number) < 1269719246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there < 1269719268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that explains two of it < 1269719273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but not why there are three? < 1269719275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all three, actually < 1269719286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? I could see the V/mV thingy but... < 1269719291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are three different ranges < 1269719298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because autoranging works in multiples of 10 < 1269719310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internally, the second one is 0101 units of .01 V < 1269719311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems strange that three ranges overlaps for a single value < 1269719340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a decimal point's added to make it less weird-looking < 1269719347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269719353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, a single value could be in loads of ranges < 1269719367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that seems poor design though to me? < 1269719368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.001µV is probably in every range on the multimeter < 1269719372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'd probably all treat it as 0 < 1269719385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269719387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not poor design; no range has trouble reading numbers /below/ the ideal region < 1269719409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the signal was, say, a square wave changing relatively slowly < 1269719420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't want it to keep re-ranging every time it went past 0 < 1269719428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but why is the hysteresis so large that the value may be displayed in 3 different way? < 1269719436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you'd end up overloading the multimeter and/or blowing the fuse < 1269719445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269719461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because, the size of the hysteresis is measured in time, and the ranges are measured in volts < 1269719462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was stable at all three values < 1269719468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there wasn't any such time delay < 1269719475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, it likely also doesn't change if the voltage isn't changing < 1269719492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'll probably be a processor in there somewhere, and that would be a plausible way to program it < 1269719507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the voltage was jittering up and down a tiny bit. it was for AC. so RMS value < 1269719511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(processors are cheap nowadays, trying to do autoranging "by hand" is entirely possible but would be expensive) < 1269719546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, theory: there were two hystereses involved < 1269719554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and considering it has a digital display and lots and lots of buttons I assume it has a processor < 1269719560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for the actual range selected (millivolts, or tens of millivolts) < 1269719567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one for the units to display in (millivolts, or volts) < 1269719573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, the selector was on voltage (AC) < 1269719575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would explain how you got all three possibilities stably < 1269719576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that helps < 1269719597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh, quite insane :D < 1269719613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not at all, as the display and the measurement would be entirely different circuits < 1269719614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is all quite hysterical? < 1269719625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: quite < 1269719628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269719689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure if the fact that it was measuring RMS and not peak voltage complicates it further or not < 1269719702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Measure what aspect of Stallman? < 1269719706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it depends on /how/ it was trying to measure RMS < 1269719719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it was marked "true RMS" whatever that means. < 1269719723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly it was trying to measure the proximity of RMS. < 1269719723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't make any difference if it's by the standard method of rectifying then putting a capacitor in there < 1269719726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and input was a sinusoidal, from a function generator < 1269719732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it wasn't using the standard method then < 1269719736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only the true RMS, not the impersonators. < 1269719737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: a warning meter then < 1269719747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does it measure "true rms" then? < 1269719750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you rectify then add a capacitor, the result depends on the shape of the wave < 1269719769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there's a correction factor (1/sqrt(2) for a sine wave, 1 for a square wave) to get RMS < 1269719778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, RMS is, uh, Root Mean < 1269719789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION know what it means, just not what it stands for
< 1269719792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knows* < 1269719801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true RMS means that it's using some form of measurement that can deduce the actual RMS without knowing the shape, but I'm not sure how to measure that < 1269719804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: root mean square < 1269719811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right duh < 1269719847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, measuring peak-to-peak would be a lot simpler sometimes. :/ < 1269719860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess that is what you have oscilloscopes for < 1269719873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of an obvious way to do peak-to-peak either < 1269719884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, using a oscilloscope < 1269719888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems obvious to me < 1269719890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, on a multimeter < 1269719904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the oscilloscope I used even has a measure button with an option for peak-to-peak) < 1269719904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analog oscilloscopes rely on a human to see which bits of phosphorous are getting marked < 1269719907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to set trigger levels < 1269719910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was a digital one < 1269719916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the oscilloscope < 1269719924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, modern oscilloscopes are a lot more sophisticated and can actually pick up the signal themselves < 1269719932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than relying on physics to amplify the signal < 1269720082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaphysical oscilloscopes < 1269720165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes indeed it did < 1269720175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just pressed autoset or something like that iirc < 1269720182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly adjusted some settings afterwards < 1269720195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like changed from peak-detect to sample or to average-sample < 1269720219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know why it always preferred the noisy peak detect mode) < 1269720288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peak detection is inherently noisy, because it relies on a very short length of time to grab the peak < 1269720297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any noise will have a full effect at that moment, rather than averaging over time < 1269720911 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269720983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1269720994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sample mode was rather noisy too iirc < 1269721003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while averaging sample was quite nice < 1269721019 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a technician named Pope < 1269721030 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who plugged into an oscilloscope < 1269721036 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cyclical trace < 1269721040 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of their carnal embrace < 1269721055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had a damn near infinite slope < 1269721069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in other words, it was a square wave? < 1269721160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arguably sawtooth, but that would have implied two slopes, one near-infinite, the other definitely finite < 1269721209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it said _a_ damn near infinite slope < 1269721225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's why I thought square wave was more likely < 1269721233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know it's some sort of wave, as it's cyclical < 1269721239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a square wave has two infinite slopes < 1269721244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up, and down < 1269721246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269721253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and two zero slopes, for the horizontal bits < 1269721266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, "rising edge" and "falling edge" are more common names for them < 1269721282 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269721355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intercal needs to be... more self-modifying < 1269721362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you've obviously never really looked into CLC-INTERCAL < 1269721369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can redefine syntax on the fly < 1269721484 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269721510 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ROTE A HASKEL PROGAM sqrt . sqrt . (120 *) . sum $ do [ 1/(m*m*n*n) | n <- [1..150], m <- [1..n-1] ] < 1269721530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1269721533 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a nondeterministic search for pie < 1269721539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you modify the program code at runtime too? < 1269721543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the syntax? < 1269721558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just the syntax, but that makes the code mean something else < 1269721566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is earth hour at the same time over there as here? < 1269721572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here it starts in a few minutes < 1269721580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a much better form of self-mod than limited little code modification < 1269721598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :action at a distance is INTERCAL's niche, I think < 1269721643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING have been around for ages < 1269721651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's /so/ global it's not that useful < 1269721658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL has scoped abstentions < 1269721668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, DO ABSTAIN #1 FROM CALCULATING followed by DO REINSTATE CALCULATING < 1269721679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why do I get statically charged whenever I rise up out of this chair < 1269721683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1269721693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will abstain/reinstate without clobbering any existing abstentions, like the -72 version does < 1269721715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love INTERCAL's scoping mechanism so much < 1269721911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loads a 133 MB large pcap dump into wireshark
< 1269721915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see what happens < 1269721942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch bad idea < 1269721947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap trashing on laptop < 1269722065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to split it into several dumps
< 1269722085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/889997.txt?key=xph638b5e1j3ea7zdtfga ;; this stuff /half/ works! < 1269722135 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269722518 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you IRCing in OCaml or something? < 1269722574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircing howso? < 1269722576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is Coq, not OCaml < 1269722665 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was trying to make a reference to the ;;
< 1269722689 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I glanced at an OCaml tutorial, and ;; at the end of statements is the only thing I remember < 1269722769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269722918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1269722921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are lisp comments < 1269723025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining setoid arrows is hard < 1269725258 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I see the problem. The definition of an equivalence relation is taking up half your code. < 1269725265 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kid. < 1269725276 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269725276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's the very complicated relation A = A! < 1269725278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ask Ayn Rand! < 1269725287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, technically only Inductive Identity (T : Type) (x : T) : T -> Prop := refl : Identity x x. < 1269725289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the actual definition :P < 1269725295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest are really trivial theorems. < 1269725339 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would ask Ayn Rand, but she's dead, and most of her proponents are stupid or batshit insane. < 1269725362 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And considering she's the butt of most modern philosophers' jokes, I dare not ask them either. < 1269725440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ayn Rand is of course an idiot. < 1269725463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She thought A = A was the most profound statement ever and based her entire self-aggrandising, psychopathic philosophy on it. < 1269725467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, was, not is. < 1269725530 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read A = A! as "A equals A factorial" < 1269725535 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_< < 1269725556 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{0, 1} E A < 1269725577 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit backwards, but the best I could do < 1269725585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is a value, not a set. < 1269725585 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1269725589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you meant: < 1269725594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 0 \/ E = 1 < 1269725595 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it wrong, it's 1,2 < 1269725601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also < 1269725619 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:30 < alise> She thought A = A was the most profound statement ever and based her entire self-aggrandising, psychopathic philosophy on it. < 1269725620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or A in {1,2}. < 1269725621 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION meant the E to be a backwards.. membership thing
< 1269725623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: where can I read this? < 1269725659 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: The backwards E is "there exists" < 1269725677 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not literally backwards E. More like a curved backwards E < 1269725679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faxObjectivism states that "Existence exists" and "Existence is Identity." To be is to be "an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes." That which has no attributes does not and cannot exist. Hence, the axiom of identity: a thing is what it is. Whereas "existence exists" pertains to existence itself (whether something exists or not), the law of identity pertains to the nature of an object as being necessarily distinct from other objects < 1269725679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whether something exists as this or that). As Rand wrote, "A leaf ... cannot be all red and green at the same time, it cannot freeze and burn at the same time. A is A."[9] < 1269725700 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: A \in {0, 1} or {0, 1} \in A? < 1269725700 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I mean a book or what? < 1269725701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it can be green and have cells at the same time. < 1269725711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what ayn rand? < 1269725714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to read ayn rand? < 1269725723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have the /patience/ for that many thousands of pages of nonsense? < 1269725724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes about A = A < 1269725735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, TVTropes has a really clever CAPTCHA < 1269725736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you really want to sit through the rape-is-awesome scenes? < 1269725745 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had to read, um, Anthem I think, for school
< 1269725757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's http auth, which states the password in the login dialog < 1269725761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Suicide is the only option. < 1269725767 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one where the boy discovers a light-bulb-box thing, and the scientist people of the time threaten to destroy it < 1269725782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a poorly written book. < 1269725796 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION may be describing it poorly
< 1269725798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It was at least a short work of hers. A mere few hundred pages. < 1269725814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I, too, had to read that book. It sucked ass. < 1269725828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is my favourite Ayn Rand novel. It blows." < 1269725833 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't remember having an opinion in particular
< 1269725858 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that yes, the society that Ayn Rand describes is dystopian < 1269725867 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would've made them opt for some good-ole Huxley. < 1269725894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having people be able to take credit for things is not a bad thing. < 1269725917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: She considers that dystopian society the result of having government. < 1269725924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... *Having* government. < 1269725940 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269725941 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blinks
< 1269725945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269725962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your government just forced you to read an anarchist screed. < 1269725976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have anarchistic tendencies but make no mistake: anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism. < 1269725978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, editing TV Tropes is a sign of a deliberate choice to have your life sucked in, I suspect < 1269725993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well... Yeah... < 1269726079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune. < 1269726089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: XD < 1269726093 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269726097 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would tend to prefer something that didn't need various patches
< 1269726108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, we're mutalist. < 1269726108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so we can be more obscure and esoteric. < 1269726118 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're talking about Ayn Rand. < 1269726122 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And will only ever support something that has a non-violent transition plan. < 1269726124 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wonder so much retardation has invaded the channel. < 1269726130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say we're actually more like anarcho-anarchism, by which I mean that everyone does what the fuck they want because they can't hurt anybody else. < 1269726141 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN'T? < 1269726147 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like the world of Prime Intellect < 1269726167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Anarchism will probably never have a non-violent transition plan, as the whole point is that capitalism will use violent measures to maintain it. < 1269726168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*itself < 1269726172 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why the author made it seem dystopian. To me, it would be Heaven. < 1269726180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't say that's anarchism's fault... < 1269726199 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269726238 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't anarchism and capitalism orthogonal? < 1269726285 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you start talking about such things you have to start distinguishing "government" from any other form of social structure, but that distinction becomes meaningless very fast. < 1269726309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lack of a formal government, any form of social structure will soon become an effective government. < 1269726336 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but MONEY IS NATURAL < 1269726338 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1269726364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, the corporations that will form to provide basic services will soon function as a form of government. < 1269726381 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOVERNMENT IS INEVITABLE < 1269726381 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's capitalist, it's all ok < 1269726383 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUAHAHAHAAHAH < 1269726416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than likely a form of feudalism, but it's a complete and utter crapshoot what would actually happen. < 1269726418 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269726486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes all the wlan channels except channel 13 are overcrowded around here... < 1269726488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1269726505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses channel 13 for his router, and so does one other AP
< 1269726615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1269726623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Which country are you in?\ < 1269726642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweden < 1269726644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Aren't anarchism and capitalism orthogonal? < 1269726645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269726649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise beat me to it < 1269726660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are mutually exclusive < 1269726672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1269726674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are they? < 1269726675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Indeed but anarchism is more the opposition to government than the belief that it can be completely eliminated for all time. < 1269726678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269726694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :channel 6 and 11 btw seems to be the most over populated < 1269726703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"anarcho-capitalism" is just a silly lie invented by proponents of laissez-faire < 1269726711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in total there are 43 networks visible from walking around this floor < 1269726719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, channel 13 is more regulated than the rest (requires lower power gain, because it buts up against licensed spectrum) < 1269726719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not all are visible from any given point) < 1269726745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not so in EU afaik < 1269726758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anarcho-capitalism, AKA "Lalala capitalism is god, hail Adam Smith" < 1269726807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ripple is possibly the closest thing to anarcho-capitalism that could work. < 1269726817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an aside, I find the "hail Adam Smith" stuff pretty funny. < 1269726820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, compared to my last scan a few months ago there are fewer WEP and fewer open, a lot more WPA, but the same number of WPA2 < 1269726836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... He was a proponent of various forms of welfare, in addition to a market economy. < 1269726887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also some people seem to shut off their wireless in the evening < 1269726903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did a number of scans today, and it went down by half in the last hour < 1269726942 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION misread that as "scams"
< 1269727008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1269727062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm really curious about that hidden ssid that I have never seen any clients connected to. Could be that the client's have too weak signals for it to reach me I guess < 1269727439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... my rule 34 test case seems to be holding up < 1269727446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1269727453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard "proof" of rule 34 is that there is porn of every Pokémon in existence < 1269727460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is+ < 1269727461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269727464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1269727471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently the Pokémon that was recently announced as being in the next games has already been involved in this < 1269727480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent that it's being marked as a prime example in TV Tropes < 1269727494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I check there to verify existence, rather than searching myself; it seems someone else is doing the same measurements) < 1269727494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269727508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I thought you never visited tv troupes? < 1269727512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you told me so before < 1269727516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I visit it in bursts < 1269727519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on one at the moment < 1269727525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tropes* < 1269727527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decide that this is a moment where I don't mind spending hours on it < 1269727541 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269727543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you told me before that you had *never visited* it though < 1269727545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was quite recently < 1269727547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I just decide to stop looking after a while, bookmarking all the pages I'm on so I can find them again < 1269727552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: at that point, I had never visited it < 1269727557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only been on three bursts altogether < 1269727576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you get stuck in those cases? XD < 1269727584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269727587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269727594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, yes but I planned to in advance < 1269727596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that isn't really getting stuck < 1269727601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1269727654 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice topic < 1269727734 0 :almya!~chatzilla@Mix-Lyon-302-2-237.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269727804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to fax, pi = 2*((inf!!^4)/(inf!^2)) < 1269727822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.tlhiv.org/MBFEx5L2 (send to latex previewer then click preview, popup) < 1269727825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, inf!!? < 1269727833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The factorial of the factorial of infinity < 1269727837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*infinity. < 1269727847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the factorial of infinity even mean? < 1269727853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely! < 1269727856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it again fax? < 1269727913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double factorial of infinity = 2*4*6*8*10*... < 1269727915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that there are series that goes on forever that makes up pi < 1269727918 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely we can figure it out based on the equation < 1269727930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, is that a common definition of it? < 1269727948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have expected some product or sum sign or such for it < 1269727956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to write it out I mean < 1269727986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is that 2^inf though? < 1269728004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2*2*... forever? < 1269728015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask fax < 1269728020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and isn't that just infinity then < 1269728024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't pretend to understand his infinitarian musings < 1269728031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though common sense seldom works for infinity) < 1269728045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am NOT an infinitarian!!! < 1269728062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles "infinitarian"
< 1269728069 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which infinity? < 1269728090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity = 1+1+1+1+... = -1/2 < 1269728090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, it just used to 90° rotated 8 < 1269728093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hard to tell < 1269728099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was aleph_0 or some other < 1269728157 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mebbe he was talking about the cardinality of the continuum < 1269728212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : infinity = 1+1+1+1+... = -1/2 < 1269728222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the infinite chain of successors < 1269728232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the only infinite natural - presuming we allow infinite nestings of constructors < 1269728238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which we must to have infinity < 1269728273 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg! a math chan! < 1269728281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almya where?? < 1269728285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almya: programming actually... but < 1269728289 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1269728292 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269728294 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269728296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well esoteric programming < 1269728302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is close enough to mathematics... when it's good, that is < 1269728341 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are esoteric programming theories ? < 1269728354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably >_> < 1269728384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of Brainfuck: every esolanger has developed at least one Brainfuck derivative. < 1269728384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269728403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, _have_ i done that now < 1269728407 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269728416 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't
< 1269728421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot recall, but it's so easy to do that he may have forgotten it
< 1269728425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have implemented barinfuck < 1269728451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a brainfuck < 1269728452 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1269728518 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all that language agnostic ? < 1269728533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have developed two :( < 1269728552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, we are language agnostic. We are in doubt but apathetic about the existence of languages. < 1269728578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats pikhq for stealing his joke -----###
< 1269728578 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269728654 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my language is esoteric?: http://www.enchiladacode.nl ... you decide < 1269728687 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1269728718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: looks far too well-developed to be esoteric :D < 1269728771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Far too usable. < 1269728774 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think to most interesting esoteric languages are extremely well-developed to be different < 1269728777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had this strange impression there was an enchilada language on the wiki
< 1269728809 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you insult me! - usable? - nah < 1269728822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no < 1269728826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoves Befunge at you
< 1269728826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido -- it doesn't look esoteric but I just glanced < 1269728907 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esoteric bit is that it would be very difficult to compile enchilada to efficient machine code < 1269728928 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess most esoteric languages have that property < 1269728951 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaahh!! so the product of all the prime numbers = 4pi^2 < 1269728952 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be not < 1269728971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Many languages are difficult to compile efficiently. < 1269728998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: befunge has that as a design feature < 1269729002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many commonly used languages cannot readily be compiled to machine code, for that matter. < 1269729010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Without including an eval function, that is. < 1269729045 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: enchilada's eval is always there - always < 1269729049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The theory of Brainfuck: every esolanger has developed at least one Brainfuck derivative. <-- err actually I'm a counter example too < 1269729057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait cpressey has burrito, maybe he has an enchilada too < 1269729070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have of course implemented brainfuck though < 1269729075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um burro not burrito < 1269729078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: you're the enchilada creator? < 1269729086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: BTW, what makes it difficult to compile efficiently? < 1269729087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269729091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great to meet you rapido < 1269729098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your language is interesting and it sucks. :) < 1269729104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The highest compliment I ever give to a language.) < 1269729106 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: thanks! < 1269729130 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: every unwritten term carries a hash < 1269729145 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code = data = hashed < 1269729150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: May I comment? Making the correctness of your language depend on the infallibility of SHA-1 is unwise. < 1269729162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as SHA-1, by definition, cannot satisfy what you ask of it: a distinct output for every distinct input. < 1269729167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (The highest compliment I ever give to a language.) <-- really? < 1269729173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1269729174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you praised your own ones more < 1269729175 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: SHA-1 is just one choice of hash < 1269729181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's because I am infallible. < 1269729185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: But it is true of every hash. < 1269729187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also feather < 1269729193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but ssh! ais523 is near) < 1269729195 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is it? < 1269729200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Hashes, by definition, cannot satisfy what you ask of it. < 1269729207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If F is a hash function, then there exists (x,y) such that F(x) = F(y), /because/ the output domain of F is smaller than the input domain. < 1269729212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, after all, the purpose of a hash function. < 1269729215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I love the way you can try to avoid attracting someone's opinion by nickpinging them < 1269729216 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the chance of your memory to fail or have a hash collision? < 1269729226 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not your memory of course ;) < 1269729240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, haha < 1269729268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Hashes are not unique. < 1269729276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was only a theatrical "avoid attraction" < 1269729279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1269729287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relying on hashes being not unique is stupidity. < 1269729290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well there's all sorts of "chance"; many hash functions have been broken. < 1269729293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only a matter of time. < 1269729308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exception: perfect hash, where you know the input domain perfectly.) < 1269729310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Correctness doesn't care about the practical reality, though, because it is about mathematical properties. < 1269729336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1269729348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used perfect hashes somewhere, forgot for what it was < 1269729354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cfunge i think. < 1269729361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed you are right < 1269729363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably hash map of some sort. < 1269729368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but pretty sure I used it elsewhere too < 1269729377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gperf, to check if a keyword was in a list < 1269729385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the cfunge case) < 1269729391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're fairly common things to use when you can. ;) < 1269729406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I think Enchilada is certainly one of the most unique extant languages. < 1269729407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other case wasn't gperf iirc < 1269729409 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i believe the reality is not correct - at least my computer fails me many more times than hash collisions which have probability 10 ^ -30 - depending on the hash function < 1269729424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Me and cpressey discussed one aspect of it recently, actually. < 1269729435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Go and look up how many hash functions have been broken. < 1269729445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some cat buiscuts < 1269729451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA-1 is not infallible, and the difficulty of generating collisions reduces every year. < 1269729458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't SHA1 have some known weaknesses? < 1269729466 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: forget about SHA1 - think about hashes < 1269729469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. < 1269729478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: If we're being abstract we have to be formal too. < 1269729484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: This is a problem with all hashes. < 1269729487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has no known /exploitable/ weaknesses, but the fact that weaknesses exist is making people suspicious < 1269729507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: forall f:A->B, (card B < card A) -> exists x:A,y:A. f x = f y < 1269729510 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i don't see it as a problem - i see it as a opportunity < 1269729512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a fact. < 1269729524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: An opportunity... For security flaws. < 1269729528 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you give a little you gain a lot < 1269729529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or incorrect execution. < 1269729537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your choice. < 1269729547 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: memory failure is also a possibility < 1269729555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: pikhq is actually right about security: consider an Enchilada program comparing for equality to some secret value. < 1269729562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can create SHA-1 collisions, you can break this system. < 1269729565 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a physical platform - which is faulty < 1269729600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: IMO that is an error similar to the one that claims that Turing-completeness of a language is impossible because no universal Turing machine can be constructed. < 1269729609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, this is why things like hashes are useful to secure against this. However, relying on hashes causes greater issues. < 1269729660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Actually if we are considering physical things, why do you use hashes? Comparison is not slow. < 1269729678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you memoise the results so only the section of the tree not previously compared must be analysed. < 1269729690 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: try comparing two sets which are different in only one element < 1269729694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that involves comparison in itself. < 1269729702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: How big are these sets? < 1269729706 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big < 1269729720 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's do some O complexity < 1269729734 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two sets with size n and m < 1269729738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Depends heavily on the representation of the set, the location of the difference, and the comparison algorithm in use. < 1269729754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: you are appealing to practical reasons < 1269729764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so specify n and m for the actual speed matters... < 1269729778 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it does - but what's the most efficient algorithm? < 1269729784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it matter? < 1269729785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends. < 1269729803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, another criticism - and I'm not trying to sound whiny, just offering my opinions because the positive ones are boring - having every object have a sign is weird-ass. < 1269729812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficiency of an algorithm depends a lot on the input. < 1269729833 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey, i'm just being esoteric ;) < 1269729850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance: if your input is going to always be mostly-sorted, insertion sort is a pretty dang nice algorithm. < 1269729855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you appear to have practical aims with your language to an extent; perhaps I am wrong. < 1269729870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why cant an esolang be practical too? < 1269729889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: now you are just being negative < 1269729896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh ho ho ho < 1269729914 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269729919 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Heresy! < 1269729920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Anyway, add dependent types and termination checking and I'll love it. < 1269729937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This rule is the only exception to the rule that the highest praise I give to any language is that it's interesting and it sucks. < 1269729942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, would you love INTERCAL with dependant types? < 1269729961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods ais523 about that idea
< 1269729968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As I said, there are no other exceptions to the rule; so since I have stated the single exception, you can assume it applies in all cases the exception enumerates. < 1269729984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hear Enchilada doesn't have exceptions.) < 1269729997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you lost me there < 1269729999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enchiladas don't have souls < 1269730005 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no exceptions, yes baby! < 1269730016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: But it has _|_, I presume? < 1269730022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are computations that do not terminate? < 1269730043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematically, this is equivalent to errors: It is the addition of an element _|_ to every type that you cannot check for. < 1269730046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just as insidious. < 1269730064 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't have bottom - everything terminates eventually < 1269730066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lies! if they're filled with beans they do! < 1269730070 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor rapido having to listen to this :P < 1269730095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, that is good. I do hope you realise that this means it cannot be turing-complete. < 1269730101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, wait, it is impossible to write cat(1)? < 1269730182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to be somewhat nicer to rapido < 1269730183 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i have thought of this. what about doing something 10^100000 times? < 1269730187 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to surf the web in BF? < 1269730192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am not being unkind. < 1269730196 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Note: It isn't impossible, given PSOX] < 1269730204 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So analogy fail < 1269730204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that depending on hash is bad < 1269730210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you misinterpreting neutrality and my not offering trivial praises of its novelty (which I have already done) as hostility? < 1269730214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, it is not relevant to TCness though < 1269730218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: So, you are an ultrafinitist, then? < 1269730234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: If something could never be computed it is not computable. < 1269730239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So sufficiently large numbers do not exist... < 1269730240 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just likes mentioning PSOX around alise
< 1269730253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, while non-terminating is related to TC < 1269730279 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i like brouwer - the dutch mathematician < 1269730284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC implies non-termination... < 1269730313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: You are at least a constructivist then. < 1269730317 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a language in which no program terminates be TC? I'd assume so, since it's easy to make a terminating program not terminate < 1269730350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you respond to a question about non-terminating programs with a question about programs that run for too long to be computed in this universe, then you are at least some form of finitist; I would say the ultra variety. < 1269730354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes. < 1269730409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION accepts non-constructive proofs btw
< 1269730412 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I guess that you could maybe define 'termination' as something else < 1269730418 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to explain my case < 1269730426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when a particular switch is flicked.. even if other stuff is still happening < 1269730428 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you have a long winding proof < 1269730440 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof will hold references to other proofs < 1269730467 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those proofs will hold references to yet other proofs < 1269730489 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the chance of any reference to be faulty? < 1269730500 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should make a system in which cyclical proof references can exist. < 1269730506 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can we do to lower that chance? < 1269730507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes, you can implement "termination" as going into a busy-loop or some such. < 1269730530 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we make a reference absolutely non-faulty - always? < 1269730534 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe so < 1269730541 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can lower it < 1269730544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Eh? < 1269730548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean it references an incorrect proof? < 1269730557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formal proof verification systems mean that the only point of infallibility is the axioms. < 1269730564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, that's a problem of mathematicians being wrong, not a property of mathematics itself < 1269730566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or definitions :P < 1269730566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See metamath(.org), Coq, Mizar, ... < 1269730575 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: think of the reference itself < 1269730580 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could defined say 'prime' wrong.. so that every number is prime < 1269730584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not realize < 1269730587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Define what a reference to a proof IS, as an actual object. < 1269730595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be positing some sort of mathematical universe of pointers to proofs. < 1269730630 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm saying that you need pointers < 1269730636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1269730640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: This is false. < 1269730645 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to scala < 1269730649 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scala <- scale < 1269730660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define scale, and what has scaling got to do with abstract mathematics? < 1269730690 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't abstract mathematics need pointers? < 1269730696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope? < 1269730704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I haven't found any in the axioms I've looked at recently. < 1269730707 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to refer to something? a word is a pointer < 1269730747 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, a reference to a proof is just um.. kind of included, I guess? More like a #define than an import? < 1269730752 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not sure if he's making sense
< 1269730757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: No, a name is just a placeholder. < 1269730765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can replace it directly, rather than assigning it to anything. < 1269730796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall p, p -> (forall q, q -> p)) doesn't have any pointers; it has placeholders. By itself, it means nothing: not unless you know how to fill in the foralls. < 1269730802 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but the name must be unique, not? < 1269730805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you do, you replace them directly. There are no pointers, only symbol manipulation. < 1269730821 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the statement will be ambigious < 1269730831 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ambiguous < 1269730868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and? < 1269730873 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on - names refer to bigger things < 1269730883 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they compress the bigger things < 1269730900 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are a poor-mans hash of the things they refer to < 1269730931 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bigger things have names in them < 1269730939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269730941 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they refer to other objects < 1269730944 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269730952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I think that's rubbish. < 1269730957 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok < 1269730960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbolic notation is not compression. < 1269730975 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's exactly that < 1269730983 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's abstraction < 1269730987 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to compress < 1269730990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: a name would only be a hash if it was derived entirely from the thing it named < 1269730991 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh you could hard code in something that ensures that every variable name you use, names some term which is larger < 1269731005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: precisely! < 1269731009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a placeholder, not a smaller form. < 1269731014 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's why i like hashes better than names < 1269731015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ilke you couldn't define sum = +/ < 1269731020 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be an error < 1269731020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In (p -> (q -> p)), we're really just defining a template for truths. < 1269731042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: and it is also why hashes must have the possibility of collisions, but names need not < 1269731043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're saying that: If we have a thing, and another thing, then the first thing implies that the second thing implies the first thing. < 1269731048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no compression. < 1269731052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb. < 1269731122 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: names may not - but who will make sure the names don't clash? < 1269731135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: the compiler/verifier < 1269731171 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: don't you agree that names compress the complex objects hat they refer to? < 1269731181 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hat <- that < 1269731214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: now you are just shifting the meaning of a term, it won't help your actual argument any < 1269731219 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you would end up with pure value passing semantics - which is very inefficient < 1269731244 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and what's my actual argument? < 1269731260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_whatever_ it is :D < 1269731275 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1269731315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, whether the term "compression" includes names is uninteresting if it's just defined to do so < 1269731319 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 'heh you could hard code in something that ensures that every variable name you use, names some term which is larger' < 1269731343 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: this would end up with names as big as the objects themselves < 1269731373 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inefficient? When dealing with _shifting math around_? < 1269731374 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just would rather have the objects - thank you very much < 1269731381 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cheater < 1269731406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: i think you are reading fax backwards < 1269731425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't havea problem with that
< 1269731463 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's right < 1269731476 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it is an interesting thought - thanks! < 1269731534 0 :chromakode!~chromakod@unaffiliated/chromakode JOIN :#esoteric < 1269731548 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do still think names/pointers/links are meant to compress information - think of exact repetitions < 1269731570 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269731591 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just say: hey i've got this object and a name it x < 1269731594 0 :rbradfor!~rbradfor@user-387g4no.cable.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269731600 0 :rbradfor!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269731609 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i have this other object y, and it holds 4 x's < 1269731630 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so forth < 1269731667 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how are you going to name the 10^10000 object that holds other object names? < 1269731709 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :names are important especially in a distributed setup where you can't have a central naming service < 1269731724 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is giving out the names? < 1269731827 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269731977 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will give myself a name, and a won't be a hash < 1269732031 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, to be clear, you're talking about computers, and not math, right? < 1269732056 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a name not a number! < 1269732090 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: math is riddled with references and names that refer to complex abstractions < 1269732094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be quiet, 38 < 1269732146 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: of course, you can always create the full proof down the axioms, without references < 1269732170 0 :chromakode!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269732220 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: 'math' doesn't difference from 'computers' - whatever that means < 1269732295 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can never be certain < 1269732301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1269732303 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even mathematical proofs aren't certain < 1269732306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: sigh < 1269732307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are < 1269732314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see proof verifiers < 1269732315 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need faulty humans to falsify mathematical proofs < 1269732319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1269732322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need computers < 1269732337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: correct him plz < 1269732344 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1269732352 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me! < 1269732356 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if rapido might be pulling a fax.
< 1269732359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, saying that proofs aren't certain because you need humans to falsify them or something < 1269732369 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but computers are faulty - the change of computers to faulty is much higher than hash collisions < 1269732386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, you are so damn wrong it makes my head hurt. I have never haerd someone be so wrong, I can't beleive you are sreious forgoodness sake -- you gotta be kidding? The sad thing is I know you arent.. < 1269732391 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change <-chance < 1269732395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: except when computers go wrong - they don't say "Yes this is valid omg!" < 1269732398 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, wrong person < 1269732403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they say "Segmentation fault" < 1269732411 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you are so damn wrong it makes my head hurt. I have never haerd someone be so wrong, I can't beleive you are sreious forgoodness sake -- you gotta be kidding? The sad thing is I know you arent.. < 1269732414 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: thanks for correcting me - thank you very much < 1269732419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Or just say nothing, if you've got very bad luck. < 1269732423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pinged Oranjer, rapido < 1269732425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you! < 1269732429 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1269732433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, it tends to be pretty clear when that happens. < 1269732436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, what? < 1269732462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is putting out 5 instead of 6. WTF? Oh, it works in the debugger. Mmkay, Heisenbug." < 1269732482 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heisenbug! now you are talking my way! < 1269732502 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like heisenbugs! < 1269732505 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are great! < 1269732523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hash collisions are not heisenbugs in your language. They are just *inexplicable* ones. ;) < 1269732537 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should create a esoteric language called heisenbug! < 1269732580 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the default would be an heisenbug statement - with the remote exception of a correct statement < 1269732655 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the heisenbug language proves to be turing complete - i'm done! < 1269732666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notices no one seems to have named any actual insect after heisenberg
< 1269732743 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is my role in all this? < 1269732780 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: just to make you shiver: 'corporate' storage depends on hashes (that may have collisions) < 1269732790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you write this all down and send it as beeps over a phone line < 1269732835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Yes, hash tables are common. < 1269732836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: You are mixing the practical and the theoretical, seemingly repeatedly. < 1269732839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1269732840 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They allow for collisions. < 1269732847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people believe them to be equal. Do yu < 1269732849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you? < 1269732856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm merely curious as to how your justifications work... < 1269732887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You hash the index, look in the table, and then compare against the proper index to find the proper item.) < 1269732887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hey < 1269732891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that earlier < 1269732899 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think theoretical abstractions need reality to be expressed. < 1269732903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was what, fax? < 1269732908 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do see the difference < 1269732911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: precisely, hash tables don't require collisions to break things :) < 1269732930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heheheh. < 1269732948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Then it is a philosophical disagreement we have, and having reached the bottom layer of where rationality works, we should abandon the discussion immediately. :) < 1269732985 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i see that - no prob :) < 1269733001 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you told me to correct something -- what? < 1269733004 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Esolang where programs consist of prime - 1 operations and next operation is selected by g(1+x) - 1 mod p (x + 1 mod p for branches). < 1269733013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: rapido :P < 1269733027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, I applaud your work on Enchilada and hope you'll visit here often. < 1269733041 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes butwhat did he say? < 1269733048 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lol! < 1269733068 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hey - at least i've made something runnable! < 1269733123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that mathematical proofs were fallible < 1269733128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "you need fallible humans to falsify them" < 1269733154 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a word definition problem < 1269733155 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that sounds very familiar < 1269733193 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nice" properties of that include that program flow totally changes if program space is enlarged. < 1269733200 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound like the scientific approach - repeat and measure < 1269733207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science is not mathematics. < 1269733218 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: again we disagree < 1269733221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is the domain of the certain. Science is the domain of the uncertain, that which we must experiment on to determine. < 1269733239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science is the art of building mathematical theories based on experiment. < 1269733270 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I dont think I agree with that < 1269733275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, I think I have the evidence on my side. There are many mechanical proof checkers upon which a large part of mathematics has been formulated. < 1269733286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying that mathematics is uncertain is a bit silly in light of that. < 1269733289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is the art of producing absolute certainties based upon other absolute certainties or absolute declarations. < 1269733299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must be sure that your axioms are consistent. < 1269733303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond that, you can be sure. < 1269733325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really agree with you guys < 1269733341 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your romance with math is before 1935 < 1269733352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! < 1269733363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to say? < 1269733376 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In space of size 6, the execution order goes: 1,3,2,6,4,5,1... In space of size 10 it goes: 1,2,4,8,5,10,9,7,3,6,1... < 1269733378 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was Godel doing his stuff? < 1269733393 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that math is much to great and complex and interesting to be certain < 1269733395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what's your g? < 1269733398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: '31 < 1269733425 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: First g with maximal order. 3 in first example, 2 in second. < 1269733436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I really do invite you to go up to any of the many people who have worked on proof checkers, proof assistants, and laboriously defined and proved things in these systems - and say that to them. < 1269733441 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: and that axioms are not enough - godel has proved that < 1269733446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could start with the people who used a computer to prove the four-colour theorem. < 1269733457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Axioms are not enough"? Godel says nothing of the sort. < 1269733458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he showed that axioms could not be shown to be consistent. < 1269733465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No he didn't. < 1269733474 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: btw I think most people here are post-godel < 1269733480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Could not within the axiomatic system, wasn't it? < 1269733493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He showed that a theory of at least the strength of Peano Arithmetic can be either two things: < 1269733503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: of course it is a big factor < 1269733503 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure - i'm more into popper <- an oldie also < 1269733510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consistent, or have a proof of its own consistency inside itself. < 1269733517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. That was it. < 1269733530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. no consistent theory of sufficient strength contains a proof of its own consistency < 1269733538 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's one way of putting it < 1269733541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the second theorem. < 1269733551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's what he... Said... < 1269733554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is that a theory at least as strong as PA can either be consistent or complete. < 1269733573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i think you left out the +1 -1 bits in your examples. although that may be a good thing. < 1269733588 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your definition is inconsistent with the ones that are usually given < 1269733592 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what i don't understand is that you allow proof checkers < 1269733607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: What's to not understand? < 1269733609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Perhaps you do not understand what a proof checker is. < 1269733614 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you rely on faulty memory < 1269733624 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Of course branch jumps are pretty incompatible with general flow (but that's a "feature"). < 1269733625 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i perfectly understand. < 1269733626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: so, first primitive root < 1269733631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Your appeal to errors in memory to demonstrate that mathematics is uncertain is really poor. < 1269733635 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you trust the compiler < 1269733636 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1269733647 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has the compiler been proved correctly? < 1269733652 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the processor? < 1269733654 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc, etc < 1269733659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your appeal to human fallibility to demonstrate that mathematics is uncertain is also very poor. < 1269733659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, you can have RAM with so much error checking that it is physically impossible for it not to detect an error for the computation you are doing... < 1269733667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: There is an article about this. < 1269733669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are either correct or incorrect. This is certain. < 1269733670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me find it. < 1269733676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/homework.html < 1269733678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1269733718 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido - of course the main thing people are forgetting is there's so much more to mathematics than formal proof < 1269733731 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: very true < 1269733734 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no there's not) < 1269733758 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://r6.ca/homework.html <- this i don't like < 1269733798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specify this. < 1269733812 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, he doesn't like URLs < 1269733816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have www., therefore it's nonsensical < 1269733825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn it, fax is funnier < 1269733832 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Is there point where one couldn't branch. That would correspond to gx = x + 1 mod p => (g-1)x = 1 mod p => x = (g-1)^-1 mod p. Since g > 1, g-1 > 0 and thus inverse exists... < 1269733839 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to feeling useless
< 1269733850 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I couldn't understand the first sentence of that :( < 1269734000 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, his first mistake is thinking he could be novel. < 1269734003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: x = g^(p-2) (mod p) < 1269734009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1269734019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(g-1)^(p-2) < 1269734067 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a novel.
< 1269734083 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 'For one, you can have RAM with so much error checking that it is physically impossible for it not to detect an error for the computation you are doing...' < 1269734127 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: for one, you can have hashes with so many bits that it is physically impossible not to detect an error for the computation you are doing... < 1269734143 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269734155 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i will stop moaning about hashes < 1269734164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: no that's false < 1269734171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if the output domain is smaller than the input - the definition of a hash < 1269734181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to do what you want... < 1269734189 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think rapido is trying to make an analogy? < 1269734189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has his laptop spontaneously quantum tunnel into a state where it thinks 2+2=5
< 1269734200 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the checking bits of faulty ram is smaller than the ram < 1269734248 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have absolutely perfect ram < 1269734265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE -- the most kind of impossible there is < 1269734291 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was reading this algebra book right < 1269734294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lossessly compresses everyone into a bit.
< 1269734298 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they were saying: Lets solve some equation: ... < 1269734300 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no, the most kind of impossible there is - is god < 1269734308 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, you can have infinitely outputting hash functions. < 1269734313 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to 'solve it' they just invent a NEW number system... which has a new element in it... which solves the equation < 1269734315 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., sponge constructions < 1269734317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cheating! < 1269734351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido oh you're another of the atheist people I guess -_- < 1269734352 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: a sponge bob - another hero if mine! < 1269734364 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if <- of < 1269734369 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1269734376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm that's a bit rough. it can be useful for some things, though. (witness complex numbers.) < 1269734386 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what were your dictatorship plans? I think it's safe to discuss them now