00:00:03 <fax> http://logic.pdmi.ras.ru/~yumat/H10Pbook/
00:00:47 <fax> http://logic.pdmi.ras.ru/~yumat/H10Pbook/bookcont.htm
00:03:12 <oklokok> anyway for OR the solution isn't something you'll just look at and go "oh lol why couldn't i see that"
00:03:31 <oklokok> although anyone should be able to prove it
00:03:39 <fax> I don't think I give up yet
00:04:27 <oklokok> tell me if you do, and we can start talking about fixed-points of morphisms
00:04:48 <fax> why does that require knowledge of OR?
00:05:01 <oklokok> it doesn't, i just wanted to segway into it in an awkward way
00:05:19 <fax> why 'of morphisms' isn't the theory just the same
00:05:55 <oklokok> well we use morphisms to get all sorts of avoidability results, because infinite words defined as fixed-points of morphisms have the fun property that we can do induction on them.
00:06:30 <oklokok> if the pattern XYX occurs in h^n(a), then it must occur in h^(n-1)(a)
00:06:44 <fax> this is still thue/monoid theory?
00:07:10 <oklokok> topic is combinatorics on/of words, subtopic avoidability
00:07:39 <alise> possibly the simplest tc language ever
00:07:39 <oklokok> morphisms, by which i mean homomorphisms, are just a convenient way to get there
00:07:49 <alise> it doesn't even have variables... or anything
00:08:03 <alise> you're a homo (morphism)
00:08:18 <oklokok> alise: it's the same thue at least
00:08:41 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
00:08:44 <oklokok> oh and well i guess both are word stuff
00:08:53 <alise> oh not the language
00:09:16 <fax> how do you write logical OR in Thue?
00:09:44 <alise> i forget the syntax but
00:10:22 <alise> it's hard to believe that such ... uncomputational rules can still have things like storage and plugging that storage into other things
00:11:30 <alise> I would say Thue is simpler than BCT
00:11:30 <alise> ignoring the IO fluff
00:11:45 <alise> it's basically [(string,string)] -> string -> string
00:12:38 <alise> and really all you do is... pick something from the array, find it in the program, replace by the second element, repeat
00:14:22 -!- AnMaster has quit (*.net *.split).
00:14:40 <alise> "i've been using ASP for years, but this is my first shot at something big in PHP, so i didn't even know there was a strip_tags function! wow ASP needs something like that lol" -- this was written in 2010
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00:19:36 <oerjan> <alise> Maybe I'll go to Norway, they have the Euro :P
00:20:06 <alise> I thought they did?
00:20:18 <alise> At least I remember reading they did.
00:20:57 <oerjan> we're not an EU member. not that that has stopped other countries from using the Euro.
00:21:26 <coppro> the Scandinavians love their currencies
00:21:47 <pikhq> They are at least in Schengen.
00:21:50 <alise> huh; norway isn't an eu member?
00:21:58 <alise> my illusions are being shattered
00:22:08 <alise> does denmark at least have the euro
00:22:22 <oerjan> alise: you're an eu citizen and you don't know which countries are eu members? O_O
00:22:25 <coppro> of the Scandinavian countries, only Finland does
00:22:34 <coppro> Norway has the coins with holes in them
00:22:41 <alise> oerjan: oh come on britain is barely an eu member :D
00:22:44 <oerjan> neither denmark, sweden or norway have the euro, although with different excuses
00:23:10 <oerjan> norway isn't an eu member, denmark has an exception and sweden pretends they have one ;D
00:23:43 * coppro has a sudden craving for donus
00:23:59 <coppro> good thing I live in Canada
00:24:00 <oerjan> and the rest of eu seem to pretend sweden does too, so it's de facto
00:24:17 <alise> coppro: whereabouts in canada do you live?
00:24:35 <coppro> oerjan: Sweden is exploiting a loophole to avoid having to switch
00:24:37 <alise> expect me there roughly tomorrow
00:24:52 <alise> have you guys sorted out your shitty government yet?
00:25:35 <oerjan> coppro: yeah but only sweden has a "permanent" permission to use that loophole iiuc
00:25:37 <alise> maybe i won't move to canada :P
00:26:01 <oerjan> other eastern members won't get to use it, although with the financial crisis the point is currently moot i think
00:26:26 <oerjan> (since they have a perfectly reasonable reason not to be able to reach the criteria)
00:26:31 <alise> nooo, the recession is over - the banks are giving out bonuses again!
00:26:40 <alise> (paraphrased from reddit)
00:26:49 <oerjan> alise: now _that_ must be sarcasm
00:26:58 <oerjan> since they did that the whole time
00:27:15 <coppro> yesterday a point of privilege was raised against a Minister in the House of Commons; if the Speaker allows it, the House will probably find him in contempt
00:27:38 <alise> oerjan: of course.
00:28:01 <alise> coppro: in your government
00:28:11 <alise> do people shout at each other all the time
00:28:20 <oerjan> iirc some tiny countries outside the EU also use the euro; andorra, monaco and san marino i think.
00:28:26 <coppro> we took our system from you, remember?
00:28:34 <alise> and do you have a game where everyone in the party that's talking goes "ooooh" all the time
00:28:39 <oerjan> montenegro did at one time, not sure now
00:29:32 <oerjan> and there's some west african franc or something that is linked to the euro iirc (used to be linked to the franc)
00:29:57 <oerjan> (a multinational african currency)
00:30:27 <oerjan> of course wikipedia has all this, probably where i read most of it
00:30:43 <alise> anyone want to fight with ggz to play reversi?
00:30:51 <alise> ask ais523 if you want to know how horrific it is
00:31:08 <ais523> no, don't ask, just guess from my horrified reaction
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00:31:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Also the Vatican.
00:32:10 -!- Asztal has joined.
00:32:20 <oerjan> pikhq: darn i thought about it but forgot to write it :D
00:33:44 <alise> so guys remember when we were talking about the impossibility of having legal sex in the vatican
00:33:58 <oklokok> oh almost forgot, i got the summer job i mentioned. so i'll be proving properties of CA all summer \o/
00:33:58 <alise> what if you had a friend who was a high-ranking catholic, and he let you have sex in his vatican residence
00:34:36 <fax> oklokok o_o
00:34:43 <fax> this is a JOB??
00:34:44 <oerjan> ah also kosovo (unofficial)
00:35:53 <alise> oklokok is proving properties of california and, unofficially, kosovo
00:37:55 <alise> "In addition, the convenient new function Total can now be used to efficiently add lists of numbers. " --Mathematica 5
00:38:24 <ais523> alise: all of Mathematica is inefficient unless special-cased
00:39:24 <pikhq> ais523: Seriously?
00:39:41 <ais523> but there's a lot of special-casing
00:39:47 <ais523> and the special cases tend to be fast
00:39:50 <ais523> it's one of the things I hate about it
00:39:53 <alise> most of mathematica is special cases yeah
00:39:56 <ais523> really good benchmarks, but practically useless
00:40:05 <alise> pikhq: consider - the entire language is just tree rewriting
00:40:21 <pikhq> alise: ... And they implement it naively?
00:40:27 <alise> rewriting f[x_1,x_2,...,x_n] into another tree
00:40:43 <alise> So they special-case a ton of stuff so that it isn't horribly slow if you do what they want.
00:41:18 <oklokok> why thank you, i too think i'm the luckiest person in the whole fucking universe :)
00:41:45 <alise> oklokok: god i hate you
00:41:53 <alise> just die so that i can take your place :<
00:43:53 <oklokok> the stuff they make me do will probably be like "write this trivial program to do X so we know if we're on the right track"
00:44:13 <alise> oklokok: assure me they will be formal proofs
00:46:12 <oklokok> i think it's faster to just write a python hack.
00:47:18 <pikhq> Sure it's faster. But less proofy!
00:47:37 <oklokok> oh well that's rather true
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00:49:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:58:42 <alise> a python-based proof system would be amusingorrible
00:59:39 <alise> card(NN)==aleph(0)
01:00:42 <alise> N is a bit too ambiguous by itself, and blackboard = double-striking
01:00:44 <alise> so NN is as good a name as any
01:01:21 <oerjan> except NN looks like it could be NxN. or perhaps more likely, {mn | m,n \in N}
01:01:22 <fax> NN that's clever
01:01:48 <oklokok> in any of the three cases the statement is true
01:02:06 <alise> Sigma(QQp >> QQ, lambda f: ForAll(QQp, QQp, lambda e1, e2: abs(f(e1) - f(e2)) <= e1 + e2))
01:02:15 <oerjan> the last notation is used for other things too
01:02:31 <oerjan> oklokok: well yeah, since NN=N for the last case
01:03:05 <fax> ugh alise you're making me ill :P
01:03:12 <fax> python doesn't even have a type system
01:03:40 <alise> that's why you give it one!
01:03:57 <fax> ooh I was talking to someone aboutthis
01:04:20 <fax> something about adding a type system to lisp
01:04:59 * fax doesnt likei Qi :[
01:05:07 <fax> its like somem weird frankenstien
01:05:14 <fax> dunno why they made it
01:05:23 <fax> well I have nothing against them making it to be honest
01:05:32 <fax> just don't get why anyone other than the author gives a toss :P
01:05:50 <alise> >>> coerce(refl(), Eq(NN, 2+2, 1+3))
01:05:55 <fax> http://vimeo.com/10297756
01:05:59 <alise> refl() :: Eq(NN, 4, 4)
01:06:08 <alise> i am so tempted to actually make this now
01:06:09 <alise> it would be so popular
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01:06:55 -!- nooga has joined.
01:06:57 <oklokok> why do i always make too much food and eat all of it
01:06:58 <oerjan> tip for english speakers: when spelling german words, switch ei and ie around from what your flawed intuition tells you. hth.
01:07:14 <fax> EYEgenvalue
01:07:23 * fax still hs trouble with this
01:07:45 <fax> ~ egen - igen, egen - igen, lets call the whole thing off ~
01:07:53 <oerjan> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaigenvalue
01:08:08 <Gregor> oklokok: THERE ARE STARVING PEOPLE IN AFRICA YOU KNOW
01:08:29 <alise> card(NN)==card(QQ)
01:08:42 <oklokok> so... does that mean i should eat a lot or that i should not eat a lot?
01:09:01 <Gregor> oklokok: I think it means you should clear your plate. I don't know by what logic it means this.
01:09:42 <oklokok> i think i've seen the proof in preschool
01:10:14 <oerjan> oklokok: you should eat your food so you'll grow up to be a good missionary in africa, clearly
01:10:23 <alise> !Exists(NNp, NNp, NNp, NNp, lambda a, b, c, n: (a**n) + (b**n) == (c**n))
01:10:26 <fax> preschool??
01:10:29 <fax> You did set theory in preschool? :P
01:10:30 <Gregor> oerjan: Your interpretation is awesomesauce.
01:10:31 <fax> what the nell
01:10:54 <alise> set theory in preschool would be awesome
01:10:57 <fax> I did this stuff at home
01:11:31 <oerjan> Gregor: also possibly realistic
01:11:49 <Gregor> My preschool was basically like this: Get there, finger paint, nap, ring theory, lunch, nap, recess, quantum mechanics, nap, dress-up, go home.
01:12:29 <Gregor> Apparently there was a lot of napping.
01:12:35 <Gregor> A ridiculous amount, frankly.
01:12:35 <oerjan> i mean in my fantasy, the kind of people who tell their children there are starving people in africa to make them eat, are the same kind that would want their children to be missionaries
01:12:36 <alise> in? : {A:Set} -> (x:A) -> (B:Set) -> Decision (A === B)
01:12:49 <oklokok> fax: i was talking about the starving kids actually
01:13:04 <oklokok> when i was in preschool i think i was just as retarded as everyone else
01:13:32 <oklokok> well actually i was one of the two who could read and the other guy was a few years older
01:13:34 <alise> oklokok: hey python guy, is it possible to make "3" yield something other than an int
01:14:17 <oerjan> oklokok: well there seems to be a school of thought that says that when you don't like something you should think about how some other people have it worse. i've never understood how this is supposed to make me feel better.
01:14:20 <oklokok> i know very little about python's internals, which is a bit stupid because those are the whole point
01:14:41 <coppro> no Timbits left, and the library was closed
01:15:03 <oklokok> oerjan: schadenfreude best freude right
01:15:33 <fax> http://vimeo.com/10298933
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01:19:42 <oklokok> why would i eat like 800g of food when i'm full after like 400g
01:20:01 <fax> that video fucking rules
01:20:32 <oklokok> what's it about, my connection isn't fast enough to want to look without knowing
01:21:11 <fax> wooden 'cells' that can connect up on some conditions and separate on others
01:21:19 <pikhq> oklokok: Need an extra kg.
01:21:21 <alise> so basically the game of life
01:21:27 <pikhq> (such is the American way)
01:21:29 <fax> so conglomerations of them can self replicate in some sense
01:22:20 <oklokok> i wish i lived in america, the land of dreams
01:23:05 <pikhq> Actually, it's the land of too much food.
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01:23:58 <pikhq> It is feasible to have a pound (approx. 2kg) of food in a meal here.
01:24:05 <pikhq> Rather common, even.
01:24:31 <alise> I don't get why people think that if some food is tasty more of that food is even tastier. :)
01:24:45 <pikhq> AND I DIDNT MEAN 1 LBS.
01:24:52 <pikhq> WE OVEREAT MUCH MORE THAN THAT.
01:25:35 <alise> it's a very worthwhile kind of meal
01:25:55 <coppro> I wish I was better at it
01:26:15 <fax> coppro, breakfast isn't very difficult
01:26:29 <fax> you just need to get the basics down
01:26:36 <alise> you get some things and then you put them in your mouth, and digest them
01:26:37 <coppro> the trickiest part is having enough time
01:26:51 <alise> stop caring about obligations
01:26:54 <pikhq> 1 lbs. of meat, though, is quite feasible. Then another 1 lbs. of fries. And a half-gallon of soda.
01:27:06 <coppro> alise: but the schoolteachers get angry!
01:27:28 <coppro> and then my parents get angry
01:27:41 <alise> pikhq: American meals are more portions of barely-food lumped together than meals
01:27:57 <alise> coppro: just write an amazing mathematical work
01:28:00 <Sgeo> Any plans for those machines?
01:28:12 <coppro> alise: that sounds like effort
01:28:31 <alise> coppro: but it's fun!
01:28:37 <fax> Alise: Terry Tao is becoming a finitist http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/a-computational-perspective-on-set-theory/
01:28:46 * coppro is going to go do more calculus homework :/
01:28:59 <alise> fax: does that make five?
01:29:07 <alise> I don't believe in five
01:29:07 <alise> so he can't be a finitist
01:29:11 <fax> I'm just kidding of course
01:29:26 <fax> there's just a little bit of finitism in there though
01:29:33 <fax> alise, 5 is trivial
01:29:55 <fax> I suppose you have some cubic explanation of the nonexistence of 5?
01:30:13 <alise> well my universe is finite right so every set gets a certain ration
01:30:20 <alise> and since some sets are just so much bigger than the naturals
01:30:24 <alise> and there are so many of them
01:30:30 <alise> the naturals only have the space for four elements
01:30:40 <fax> does not follow
01:30:56 <alise> i don't believe in not following
01:31:00 <alise> i'm also a trivialist
01:31:20 * coppro wonders which unit is next... probably curve sketching. yay
01:31:49 <oklokok> curve sketching calculus homework?
01:31:56 <fax> coppro: curve sketching is boring as fuck but it's actually really useful if you just get good enough at it to not really have to think too hard to do it
01:32:23 <fax> alise, http://www.paulkabay.com/#trivialism seen this?
01:32:40 <alise> fax: yeah but i didn't have the attention span to read all the huge papers
01:32:49 <fax> how acn you be a true trivialist :P
01:32:54 <alise> i have like this limited obvious-parody attention span thing.
01:32:55 <fax> you are not working hard enough
01:33:14 <alise> actually i'm a mualist, no questions have "true" answers
01:36:02 <fax> I am not sure it's a parody
01:36:13 <fax> I can see where you are coming from though
01:36:28 <oerjan> but not how fast he is going
01:36:48 <alise> he says it's a parody right on that page
01:37:02 <coppro> I don't wanna do my Agora duties :(
01:37:09 <alise> "I do not accept trivialism I reject it! (Who wouldnt reject it?) Reading this material may convince you that I am lying and that I really do believe this stuff but that is because you have no sense of irony."
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01:37:13 <alise> coppro: So resign.
01:37:36 <coppro> it's just that with the lists down, that means extra effort to redirect them to a backup list
01:37:38 <fax> alise, I've seen that -- you're just taking it at face value
01:37:44 <alise> make a contract whereby someone else does them in return for some material reward by you
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01:38:00 <alise> fax: he uses it to debunk diaelethismsdfjksijf
01:38:02 <alise> however you spell it
01:39:06 <coppro> the first question of this assignment (on curve sketching) is "Find the domain of y = sqrt(3x-5)." FUN
01:39:19 <pikhq> alise: He uses it to debunk gwandocu.
01:41:14 <Gregor> coppro: If complex numbers are "acceptable", then that's just [-inf, inf] :P
01:41:33 <oklokok> coppro: what's the domain of that function? the domain is that domain
01:41:37 <coppro> it's not a tough question, it's just that I thought I was done with this stuff
01:42:24 <coppro> Gregor: also, inclusive bounds on an infinity?
01:42:44 <fax> coppro, Don't listne to Gregor, he's an infinitist!
01:42:58 <Gregor> Don't listen to fax, he's infantile!
01:43:01 <oklokok> that's a really bad question
01:43:15 <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here
01:43:26 <oerjan> Gregor: if complex numbers are acceptable, then the domain's C, clearly :)
01:43:36 <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
01:44:23 <alise> `addquote <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
01:44:26 <oklokok> no, the domain is obviously two rounds around C so you get the whole C as the range
01:44:43 <HackEgo> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
01:44:55 <oerjan> oklokok: around 5/3, then
01:44:56 <oklokok> hmm, why was that quoteworthy?
01:45:16 <oklokok> what's the thing called when you go around multiple times?
01:45:19 <alise> um what was i going to say
01:45:20 <Gregor> alise: Doesn't seem broken ...
01:45:34 <alise> oklokok: double reacharound
01:45:37 <fax> 00:44 * alise punches HackEgo
01:45:37 <alise> Gregor: it lagged right until i told you to fix it :P
01:45:40 <fax> this made me laugh quite manically
01:46:00 <fax> the reimann rock
01:46:27 <oklokok> "reimann" would be pronounced "ruymon"
01:46:29 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface
01:46:36 <fax> reimann, riemann... lets call the whole thing off
01:46:47 <alise> fax: have you been listening to that song a lot or something
01:46:56 <oerjan> oklokok: we already discussed that above
01:46:58 <fax> it happens in my head everytime
01:47:07 <oklokok> oerjan: yes, that's why i corrected it.
01:47:22 <oklokok> because people should learn things they're told. not that i do.
01:47:32 <alise> lets, let's, let(')s call the whole thing off
01:52:56 <alise> so my laptop can rotate the screen
01:53:02 <alise> if i can get it in a nice holding position i can read papers like a real man
01:53:30 <fax> I wish the iPad was less DRM bullshit and more.. open source
01:53:37 <Gregor> alise: You mean with your eyes burning?
01:53:38 <fax> then I'd totally buy one and just lay in bed all day reading
01:53:44 <alise> fax: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhasiudhdif
01:53:45 <Gregor> fax: You mean with your eyes burning?
01:53:58 <fax> by eyes burning??
01:54:13 <fax> alise what's so funny? The only bad thing about the iPad is that it's closed
01:54:15 <alise> Gregor: Anyway, look, I haven't bought that monochrome laser printer yet
01:54:19 <Gregor> Never read anything substantial on a backlit screen then? It's quite horrible.
01:54:29 <fax> Gregor I read all the time off the computer :S
01:54:30 <alise> fax: well apart from being totally useless for anything creative instead of consuming...
01:54:42 <alise> besides, apple, open source?
01:54:45 <fax> Gregor... although.. I do have the brigtness down at minimum
01:54:51 <alise> you must be kidding; only their internal software is open source
01:55:03 <fax> alise, yeah I know it's shit.. I'm saying if it was slightly different it would be good :|
01:55:13 <fax> basically:
01:55:21 <fax> Big touchscreen that can connect to the internet
01:55:31 <alise> yeah but it would require a whole change in apple's philosophy so the end result would be way different
01:55:39 <alise> fax: hellooooo crunchpad
01:56:49 <fax> alise that was sad :(
01:56:56 <fax> http://techcrunch.com/2009/11/30/crunchpad-end/
01:57:23 <alise> really? You ever thought it would end differently?
01:57:34 <alise> Arrington is a blowhard who talks a lot of talk but has no substance or intelligence behind his ideas.
01:57:48 <fax> tbh I never heard of this before
01:57:52 <alise> Despite being a horrid person who ruthlessly demolishes people from a position of power for no particular reason.
01:57:53 <fax> I'm not really into technology
01:58:24 <alise> Anyway if you want an internet-connected touchscreen... do it!
01:58:31 <fax> do what? :P
01:58:34 <alise> I'm sure you can buy touchscreen hardware somewhere
01:58:38 <alise> get one of those embedded linux boards...
01:58:39 <fax> oh make one myself
01:58:57 <alise> It'll even have Emacs.
01:59:02 <fax> alise I can't even do those kits for children you get from maplin
01:59:13 <alise> computers are easier :-P
02:00:32 <fax> df = f' dx
02:00:36 <fax> df/dx = f'
02:00:44 <fax> I just solved the mystery
02:01:29 <alise> Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
02:01:36 <alise> How's it go Leibniz
02:01:43 <fax> this is great I've been working on this for years :P
02:01:44 <alise> omg seconds remaining until mathematica is mine
02:01:49 <alise> i can't wait to get frustrated at it
02:01:52 <alise> and want to kill him
02:01:52 <fax> 47 mins for me
02:02:12 * alise kills the torrent before his 0.00 ratio can improve
02:02:24 <alise> I feel baaaaaaaaaaaad
02:02:38 <alise> hells yeah keygen in wine time
02:02:54 <fax> are you gonna give me one too
02:03:25 <alise> i think it wants a full name though, so I'll tell it you're Mr. Fax A. Thisia
02:03:38 <alise> hmm spivak prefixes
02:03:42 <alise> what would that be?
02:03:50 <alise> Es. Alise Something
02:05:08 <fax> you remember!
02:05:14 <fax> what's Vs. ?
02:05:29 <alise> Vs was my knee-jerk attempt at a gender-neutral prefix
02:05:43 <fax> alise it should be Miss
02:05:53 <Gregor> Ps. Short for "Person"
02:06:03 <alise> or Ms if you're irritating
02:06:06 <alise> also I remember what???
02:06:14 <Gregor> Or Cr. Short for "Comrade"
02:06:28 <alise> $. Short for "Dollar-Making Economic Agent"
02:07:44 <alise> oh god; I'm being held up by the ubuntu repos
02:07:47 <alise> INSTALL WINE, FUCKERS!
02:09:51 <Gregor> PWM. Penis Wielding Human
02:09:57 <Gregor> VWM. Vagina Wielding Human
02:10:07 <alise> Penis Wielding Mhuman?
02:10:09 <Gregor> Erm, human does not start with an 'M'
02:10:19 <Gregor> PWH. Penis Wielding Human
02:10:19 <alise> YOU MEANT MAN DIDN'T YOU SEXIST PIG
02:10:22 <Gregor> VWH. Vagina Wielding Human
02:10:23 <alise> Vagina Wielding Man
02:10:50 <oerjan> "stand back. i have a vagina and i'm not afraid to use it!"
02:11:13 <Gregor> alise: Imagine He-Man, holding up a giant anthropomorphic vagina. "I HAVE THE POWEEEEEEEEEEEEER!"
02:11:25 <alise> I'm finding it really hard to consider a vagina an offensive weapon
02:11:37 <Gregor> alise: UNTIL IT DEVOURS YOU WHOLE
02:11:41 <alise> FEAAAR MY HOLE. FEAAAAAAAAAR IT!
02:11:41 <Gregor> In an extremely Freudian attack.
02:11:46 <oerjan> only one google hit for the full phrase, but better without the stand back
02:11:50 <alise> WHO TOLD YOU I WAS INTO VORE!
02:12:09 <alise> Wow, that joke killed the conversation.
02:12:12 <alise> TOO TOUCHY FOR YOU? HUH?
02:12:27 <Gregor> I don't know what that means ...
02:12:29 * oerjan eats alise to change the subject. oh wait...
02:12:46 <fax> Gregor like big snakes eating cute little fluffy mice
02:18:11 * fax slithers up behing oerjan
02:21:26 <oerjan> (chirping started seeming unsafe for some reason)
02:22:07 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/noether.html this is cool
02:29:57 <alise> Droid Sans is a pretty font.
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02:34:08 <oerjan> someone is killing off the bots!
02:35:32 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/17.html lol what
02:35:59 <alise> i am not sure what he is trying to say
02:36:33 <fax> this proof
02:36:33 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/19.html
02:36:35 <fax> is so beautify
02:37:00 <oerjan> fool's gold is mentioned in http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/13.html
02:38:06 <fax> " And there is a fifth figure (which is made out of twelve pentagons), the dodecahedron—this God used as a model for the twelvefold division of the Zodiac."
02:38:11 <fax> 12 FOLD DODECAHEDRAL TRUTH!
02:42:18 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/6to12anim.gif
02:42:21 <fax> I want to make one of these
02:47:13 <Sgeo> Hooray for Sharp commercials talking about "adding a 4th color". I mean, wouldn't that require programs to be recorded and transmitted differently? For likely negligible gain?
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02:49:08 <augur> fax: that link is a lie. there is no animation there. :|
02:49:54 <augur> also, is it just me, or is fools gold prettier than real gold? :|
02:50:56 <augur> arsenopyrite is pretty nifty too
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02:51:28 <alise> that phi proof thing, i wanna use mathematica to do an animation of zooming in on it
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02:53:56 <alise> this is a programming channel not esoterica/magic
02:54:12 <augur> sulfur, btw, is awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burning-sulfur.png
02:54:35 <augur> alise: why shit? :\
02:55:16 <fax> I am into esoterica
02:55:47 <fax> secret of the cube.
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02:56:57 <alise> fax: the mathematica keygen has ANIMATED MATHEMATICS-LOOKING LOGOS WHOA
02:57:07 <alise> and in the status bar, "I am ready" alternates gray/black
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02:57:13 <fax> lol keygens rule
02:58:50 <pikhq> What rules is tarballs of source code.
03:07:28 <alise> the mathematica installer is so awesome
03:07:30 <alise> it's just like, hey dude
03:08:48 <nooga> i'm applying to GSoC
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03:50:38 * Sgeo was happier when he believed that "chakra" was something completely made up by the writers for "Avatar: The Last Airbender"
03:51:40 <Gregor> Intel's new processors "boost performance automatically"
03:52:07 <Gregor> ... does that mean that it has speedstep, and defaults to a lower speed than max, making you go "wow that's fast!" when it actually does increase speed?
03:53:42 <pikhq> No, clearly what it does is it uses a better CPU architecture and JITs x86.
03:53:54 <alise> yeah it's called microcode
03:54:22 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean a full-blown, heavy-weight, optimising JIT compiler.
03:55:26 <Sgeo> This particular place in AW has pictures of naked ladies, with bodypaint. One for each astrological symbol
03:55:34 <Sgeo> I have.. mixed feelings about this
03:56:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: you seem to be disturbed. i suggest some etheral oils to clear up your third eye chakra.
03:57:19 <pikhq> I suggest some caustic materials.
03:57:22 <pikhq> Might I suggest lutefisk?
03:57:26 <pikhq> Preferbaly unwashed?
03:58:00 <oerjan> unwashed lutefisk? how unhygienic.
03:58:09 * Sgeo doesn't even know what lutefisk is
03:58:36 <Gregor> OTHER THAN BOTTLED DELICIOUSNESS
03:58:52 <oerjan> the bottledness is _pure_ slander, i tell you.
03:59:48 <oerjan> or should that be purée slander...
04:02:09 <oerjan> s is not a vowel, Gregor
04:02:37 <pikhq> oerjan: The washing of lutefisk is to make it edible.
04:02:49 <Gregor> Lst I chsked, 's' is a vswl.
04:02:53 <pikhq> It is too caustic to eat otherwise.
04:04:00 <oerjan> Gregor: well it's not in french
04:04:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Lutefisk is dried fish soaked in water for 6 days, then a solution of water and lye for 2 days, then washed in water for 6 days.
04:04:53 <alise> Lots and lots of lye.
04:05:02 <pikhq> At the end of the lye period, it has a pH of ~11. The washing is to make it not eat your flesh off.
04:05:14 <oerjan> hm indeed the french don't have sl- do they? should probably be élander
04:05:38 <Gregor> `translatefromto en fr slander
04:05:49 <Gregor> `translatefromto en fr of slander
04:05:55 <pikhq> Also, silver should be avoided when consuming it. The lutefisk will eat the silver.
04:05:59 <Gregor> `translatefromto en fr purée of slander
04:07:05 <nooga> The lutefisk will eat the silver.
04:07:23 <pikhq> nooga: Yes, lutefisk is caustic.
04:07:35 <Gregor> In Soviet Russia, food eat YOU!
04:08:29 <nooga> http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2009/363/d/a/Nordics_like_Fish_by_humon.jpg
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04:09:45 <nooga> i don't want to know how they invented that food
04:09:58 <pikhq> The shark is a real thing.
04:10:15 <pikhq> The rotting process gets rid of the poison.
04:10:17 <Gregor> Although I believe it to be more of a folk food than something real people actually eat :P
04:10:26 <Gregor> Something that has been made six times ever, and got a reputation.
04:10:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It's made a bit more than that. But, it's one of those "delicacy" things.
04:11:18 <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
04:11:22 <pikhq> Iceland dictates that it can only be made some number of miles away from civilization, because of the stench...
04:11:28 <nooga> but i heard that they sell small pieces of rotten shark in grocery stores on iceland
04:12:14 <nooga> and they have competitions in eating that and the winner is the one who pukes last (usually the sheriff)
04:13:47 <nooga> in ancient they had this sauce made from rotten fish fragments
04:13:56 <Gregor> `addquote <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
04:14:05 <HackEgo> 141|<songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
04:15:02 <nooga> they fermented it in big pools that stink even now
04:15:36 <songhead95> huh, and here I thought this chan was just esoteric programming!
04:19:39 <pikhq> No, that's just the nominal purpose of the channel.
04:19:50 <pikhq> We aren't on topic all that often. :P
04:26:16 <oerjan> you are of course free to create an esolang based on rotten fish if you like.
04:30:18 <alise> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero special number
04:31:44 <pikhq> (now *there's* a bitch way of writing a number)
04:31:48 <oerjan> "Wikipedia does not yet have an article with this name."
04:32:32 * oerjan leaves out the "special number" part
04:32:50 <oerjan> too bad the article name is now less interesting
04:34:53 <coppro> simple wikipedia is soooo stupid
04:35:54 <pikhq> coppro: That's because Simple English is such a stupid conlang.
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04:38:38 <Gregor> It is not double plus good.
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04:39:17 <Gregor> "If there are zero things, there are not any things. There are none."
04:39:40 <Gregor> I thought there was a distinction between "simple English" and "English for the simple"
04:40:05 <coppro> "integral is part of the Academic Word List. It is important for students in college and university."
04:40:35 <Gregor> I know it's important to me.
04:42:37 <oerjan> it's an integral concept
04:45:46 * fax cant' find anything interesting on demonstrations.wolfram.com
04:46:11 <fax> "How the Proton and Neutron Got Their Masses" sounds like a Rudyard Kipling story
04:48:37 <pikhq> Gregor: "Simple English" is an auxlang conlang constructed by simplifying English.
04:48:42 <pikhq> It possesses some 1,000 words.
04:48:54 <Gregor> pikhq: But "simple English" still shouldn't be "English for simpletons"
04:49:08 <Gregor> In fact, that's WHY simple English shouldn't be English for simpletons.
04:49:44 <coppro> is that simple English should just be English with all the hard words taken out
04:49:53 <coppro> rather than treating the reader like an idiot
04:50:18 <Gregor> More or less. It's for non-native speakers, not children :P
04:50:51 <Gregor> (Yes, children are idiots)
04:51:03 <Gregor> Also, observe this "Chinese hand sign": http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/One
04:51:24 * pikhq was not an idiot as a child
04:51:43 <Gregor> Children are idiots. I decree it.
04:51:50 <Gregor> I'm not sure if I was an idiot, but I was insufferably annoying.
04:51:52 <Gregor> And that's just as bad.
04:53:23 <coppro> I'm still insufferably annoying
04:53:41 <Gregor> Oh pooppy, you're OK! :P
04:53:49 <Gregor> ^^^ Just an excuse to call you "pooppy"
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05:02:40 <augur> actually that was quite amazing timing
05:02:51 <augur> today is now sunday, and at the Flat Planet Cafe, sunday has no soup of the day
05:03:00 <augur> the menu says, under soup of the day for sunday, "NO SOUP FOR YOU"
05:07:22 <oklokok> children are decent at learning certain things, but they have no creativity, they have no concentration, they have no insight.
05:07:27 <oklokok> i love kids, wish i had some
05:08:02 <coppro> kids are very creative
05:08:03 <oklokok> maybe i'll wait a few years to see if i grow some common sense
05:08:05 <coppro> just not when you want them to be
05:08:39 <oklokok> i've never a kid do something creative
05:11:58 <coppro> in fact, I'd say kids are really creative when they're young, but have it knocked out of them by their parents. As adults, they try and regain some of that creativity, but do not always succeed
05:13:06 <oklokok> i've heard people say kids are creative when they misunderstand how language constructs work
05:13:18 <oklokok> can't really come up with other examples, maybe you can
05:13:45 <oklokok> let me warn you, no matter how good they are, i will disagree cuz i'm never wrong.
05:20:37 <oklokok> parents discourage creativity? i thought they're like "aww my kid's genius"
05:21:05 <coppro> kids find all sorts of silly and crazy things to do
05:21:47 <oklokok> most parents suck anyway based on what i've seen, i guess you get tired of doing the job right after a few years
05:22:04 <coppro> It takes a lot of effort
05:24:26 <oklokok> or, maybe it's really easy and people just hate their kids, have you considered that possibility
05:26:03 <oklokok> i'm just trying to open your eyes to worse points of view
05:26:48 <oklokok> i think i'm going to pass out involuntarily soon if i don't go to sleep
05:26:58 <oklokok> maybe i'll watch south park or something
05:28:34 <oklokok> wish i could unsee things, i'd know which series are good, but i wouldn't actually remember what happens
05:28:56 <oklokok> i mean every series is good but it's still really scary to try a new one out
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06:36:00 <lament> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
07:29:44 <augur> stop this before it gets out of hand
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11:01:16 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
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11:51:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, it could be some other series, involving a floor() function for example
11:51:58 <AnMaster> so it only looks the same at the start
12:07:02 <fizzie> Sure; "Search: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32
12:07:05 <fizzie> Displaying 1-10 of 175 results found."
12:08:58 <fizzie> There's, for example, "Sum_{ k = 0..5 } C(n,k)" (A006261), which goes "1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 63, 120, 219, ..."
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12:13:59 <fizzie> I was going to add "or the unique degree-5 polynomial determined by the points (0,1), (1,2), (2,4), ..., (5,32)" but that seems to be the same sequence as above.
12:15:25 <fizzie> octave:9> polyval(polyfit(0:5,[1 2 4 8 16 32],5),3:9)
12:15:26 <fizzie> 8.0000 16.0000 32.0000 63.0000 120.0000 219.0000 382.0000
12:16:07 <nooga> once i got kicked out from a lab for using octave instead of matlab
12:16:27 <fizzie> That sounds very ideological.
12:17:38 <fizzie> Or some other /^id/ words.
12:17:56 <nooga> probably the teacher felt bad because he couldn't say anything smart about that because it was LINUX AND OPEN SOURCE
12:18:49 <nooga> and my mates were curious about white letters on black screen :D
12:19:19 <fizzie> Yes, having white text on black screen is hacking, that's well-known.
12:19:37 <fizzie> I seem to remember one such case from EFF's archives.
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12:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The bug occurred when I made 6 FIFOs, then ran kwrap with the names as the arguments.
12:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> kwrap repeatedly printed the contents of the virtual registers repeatedly, until I cancelled it.
12:41:01 <Phantom_Hoover> After that, the tab-completion in zsh went mad, as did ls.
12:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> As I said, zsh's tab completion then started giving random junk when I tried to check the source for what had gone wrong, and ls also output random junk.
12:45:19 <deschutron> it might have output a control character, putting the terminal in a weird mode...
12:47:41 <deschutron> i tried the commands you said. kwrap said "Error 14 trying to run new kwrap instance." The error number comes from execv().
12:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I have since deleted the (thankfully separate) directory containing kwrap, and nothing else seems to have been affected.
12:47:51 <deschutron> there were no leftover kwrap processes afterwards
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12:50:08 <deschutron> I ran "kwrap tok0 fromk0 tok1 fromk1" and it hung silently as if nicely waiting for input on its channels. The way it should.
12:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> All the pre-existing files are still there, but a huge number of junk ones have been created.
12:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It may be because I was using the version of kwrap that you compiled.
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12:51:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly question marks, some random Unicode, a few ASCII characters.
12:56:49 <deschutron> Maybe when issued with more than two pairs of filenames, kwrap enters an infinite loop, creating new processes. And they keep using the next arguments in the argv array, past the end of the array. And so they try to use files with memory-overrun style filenames, accidently creating the files in the process.
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13:15:29 <deschutron> I found a couple of errors in my kwrap code.
13:16:34 <deschutron> In the code to run the new kwrap process for the extra args, there was an off-by-one error in copying the surplus args,
13:17:19 <deschutron> and perhaps more importantly, the new argument array was being passed execv, which needs a null-terminated argument-array.
13:17:35 <deschutron> and kwrap wasn't putting a terminating null at the end of the array.
13:21:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, shouldn't duplicate use argv[0] to start the new kwrap process?
13:22:35 <deschutron> It should. I have sent you my error-corrected version.
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14:16:26 <fax> alise tried rebooting, no luck
14:16:50 <alise> fax: well if you gave me a vnc session i could try and fix it debugging gui software over irc is near-impossible ... but that involves trusting me which is dumb
14:17:05 * hiato wonders who wrote fungot
14:17:06 <fungot> hiato: i've got a relatively large export base that would nto scale to a country in any way. i can click 360 times a minute. what's he doing with changing the hell is it
14:17:15 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
14:18:18 <alise> 20:39:40 <Gregor> I thought there was a distinction between "simple English" and "English for the simple"
14:18:25 <hiato> wow, that is super impressive
14:18:26 <alise> It's just that most Simple Wikipedia editors think it's the latter.
14:18:31 <alise> 20:40:05 <coppro> "integral is part of the Academic Word List. It is important for students in college and university."
14:19:24 <alise> hiato: well it has been developed since mid-late 2008 :)
14:19:43 <alise> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/f581a030c5012af74d00dfaf69a78303dada54bd:/fungot.bef the first versioned version
14:19:43 <fungot> alise: why is finding the nth element of the list. they just don't cut it. i have to
14:19:51 <alise> it didn't even have babbling then
14:19:56 <alise> just brainfuck interp mostly
14:20:13 <fax> alise wow there's a preference option today but there wasn't yesterday!
14:20:24 <alise> fax: which option is it
14:20:31 <alise> fax: ok check Kernel
14:20:40 <alise> make sure it's set to the number of cores, license avail is inf
14:21:16 <alise> it's in Parallel btw
14:21:21 <fax> I see that
14:21:24 <fax> butI have not sure what you mean
14:21:30 <alise> screenshot the parallel tab
14:21:32 <fax> its' on Automatic: 4 kernels
14:21:38 <alise> you have four cores then?
14:21:40 <hiato> alise: I see, but still no simple feat
14:21:44 <fax> I don't know
14:21:54 <alise> open activity monitor
14:21:58 <alise> how many cpu bars do you see
14:22:10 <hiato> alise: through a meta-lang/compiler or hand written?
14:22:33 <alise> fax: ok that is correct then
14:22:46 <alise> most cpus are dual core nowadays... what is your system, a new imac?
14:23:05 <alise> newer high-end imacs have 4-core CPUs, if mac pro either new in which case one 4-core cpu
14:23:09 <alise> or old in which case two 2-cores
14:23:14 <fax> it's really old
14:23:19 <alise> probably an old mac pro then.
14:23:23 <alise> it is intel though right?
14:24:02 <alise> do you know how to set up vnc :) i'm almost certain I could get mathematica working smoothly for you
14:24:53 <alise> 21:07:22 <oklokok> children are decent at learning certain things, but they have no creativity, they have no concentration, they have no insight.
14:24:57 <alise> 21:07:27 <oklokok> i love kids, wish i had some
14:25:15 <fax> <oklokok> to cook and eat
14:25:28 <alise> 21:21:47 <oklokok> most parents suck anyway based on what i've seen, i guess you get tired of doing the job right after a few years
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14:25:38 <alise> turns out most people think they can do it without thinking about it
14:25:52 <alise> maybe we should hire engineers based on their gut feeling that they can do this
14:26:11 <fax> this mathematica sucks
14:26:14 <alise> fax: do you want me to tell you how to set up vnc?
14:26:23 <alise> it doesn't man, it's not laggy when it works properly
14:26:36 <alise> it was smooth as hell on my 2.5 gig 2-core 2.1ghz imac from 2006
14:26:44 <alise> something's just set up wrong for you :P
14:28:12 <fax> I think it's just bad
14:28:27 <alise> fax: well i have direct experience contradicting your statement that even simple anamation is slow
14:29:21 <fax> http://www.mofeel.net/1164-comp-soft-sys-math-mathematica/1370.aspx
14:30:07 <alise> Believe what you want to believe; it doesn't concern me. I was only offering to fix the problem for my experience shows that is exactly what it is, a problem...
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14:31:12 <fax> btw I turned off antialisaing but it still antialiased
14:31:27 <alise> what is still antialiased
14:31:33 <fax> the jansen walker
14:31:55 <alise> it is about antialiasing of plots not animations
14:32:02 <alise> anyway look if you want me to fix it just say so
14:37:41 <alise> I think I'm gonna make my own simple CAS
14:38:11 <fax> in mathematica?
14:38:23 <alise> yo dawg, I heard you like CASs...
14:46:27 <alise> i think i'll call it Caster
14:49:08 <alise> has anyone worked out anything about the digits of graham's number?
14:49:40 <alise> ok so I'm gonna start with the non-computational stuff since I need it to work with
14:49:58 <alise> first, a structure for terms; then, a module for symbolic rewriting on these terms; then, a module for pretty-printing these terms.
14:50:09 <alise> (including handling things like operators rather than just tons of function applications)
14:52:31 <alise> write it in ... hmm
14:55:02 <alise> Haskell because I cba to fight with anything else
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14:59:41 <alise> hmm... I want f(x,y,z) syntax for it for simple interaction with the other syntax, so I guess I'll just make that sugar for f(x)(y)(z)
15:01:20 <alise> =(+(^(a)(n))(^(b)(n)))(^(c)(n)), I could see that notation catching on
15:05:38 <fax> lol prolog
15:06:08 <alise> prolog has f(x,y) as distinct from f(x)(y) doesn't it :)
15:06:13 <alise> but yeah, very prology.
15:06:53 <fax> why don't you write f x y z :P
15:06:59 <fax> it's written in haskell afterall
15:07:15 <fax> I htink I have a parser for that
15:07:18 <fax> and pretty printer
15:09:22 <alise> by pretty printer I mean things like
15:09:36 <fax> no not that
15:09:38 <alise> or x + y for +(x)(y)
15:10:09 <fax> alise I'm writing a note on category thoegyga
15:10:19 <fax> category theology on my wiki
15:10:32 <alise> category theology?
15:10:48 <fax> The mystery of the Yoneda
15:12:10 <alise> how fast can tex run I wonder
15:12:19 <alise> it would be neat if I could have a repl which calls out to tex every line to render the output
15:12:32 <alise> also if I could then do some magic to make it selectable and copy-pastable as input format...
15:12:35 <fax> as you type? or as you hit return?
15:12:58 <alise> only the output lines, pretty-as-you-type is for my future project
15:15:04 <fax> how to do an arrow '-->' but nice
15:15:13 <fax> not that stubby unicode one :/
15:15:46 <alise> there is a long unicode arrow
15:15:56 <alise> i will find it for you
15:16:04 <alise> it is most pretty in shape
15:17:06 <alise> looks longer in the right font :P
15:19:10 <fax> alise I can use TeX!
15:19:32 <fax> I just realized wiki tex still lets me do colors
15:19:52 <alise> i really want something that lets me type tex and see it autovivify as i type
15:19:55 <alise> like not wysiwyg or whatever
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15:21:53 <alise> computer algebra system
15:28:00 <alise> a nice thing about symbolic rewriting
15:28:06 <alise> is that you don't need de bruijn indexes or anything, variable binding is trivial
15:29:24 <alise> ok so literals I need...
15:29:39 <alise> symbols, naturals, strings, applications
15:31:28 <alise> hmm I can just do naturals as symbols of digits
15:31:55 <alise> strings can just be symbols with some kind of quoting in the syntax... except no
15:31:59 <alise> because then you can reassign them :P
15:32:06 <alise> "abc def" could be string(|abc def|)
15:36:05 <hiato> 15:58 < alise> =(+(^(a)(n))(^(b)(n)))(^(c)(n)), I could see that notation catching on --> I made this esolang a while ago, before I really knew what functional mean, nice example: Square Root Approx: :(>(i1,0)?[^(f1(( /(-(*2(a1)))(+y(-x(*a1(a1))))),-(i1)))];[^a1])(f1(a1,i1))
15:40:47 <alise> haskell needs not (any f xs) :(
15:43:00 <fax> alise help me pick good colors
15:43:10 <fax> these are like all the same http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Colors
15:46:01 <alise> oh, actually, I cannot use f(x)(y)
15:46:14 <alise> consider +x vs x+y
15:46:31 <alise> prefix+(x) ... infix+(x)(y)
15:46:35 <alise> but optional arguments would be nice...
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15:56:02 <fax> alise what color is a functor?
15:58:07 <oklopol> oh i thought that a was philosophical question
15:59:43 <alise> ugh this means I have f distinct from f(), how embarrassing
16:02:18 <fax> oklopol http://i.imgur.com/WWBhb.png :P
16:02:31 <fax> (ignore the errors :S)
16:03:00 <uorygl> f and f() mean different things in Python. Therefore, f and f() ought to mean different things.
16:03:12 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
16:03:16 <alise> uorygl: Python is logically inconsistent.
16:03:23 <alise> Therefore, everything ought to be inconsistent.
16:03:39 <uorygl> What do you mean by "logically inconsistent"?
16:04:09 <alise> nooga: Swing and a miss.
16:04:10 <uorygl> I've heard a lot about Ruby.
16:04:16 <alise> uorygl: It is possible to prove _|_ in Python.
16:04:21 <alise> def f(): return f()
16:04:35 <uorygl> I don't think that's true.
16:05:08 <uorygl> In fact, f :: function
16:05:14 <alise> You fail at Curry-Howard.
16:05:23 <uorygl> You fail at Python's typing system!
16:05:34 <uorygl> Yes, Python allows infinite loops.
16:05:45 <alise> It's not even infinite loops, it has other _|_s too.
16:06:11 <uorygl> Like sys.exit(), I suppose.
16:06:16 <nooga> alise: I don't care much about your opinion in that field, sorry
16:06:30 <uorygl> A sane computer program is really not the same thing as a sane proof.
16:07:03 <alise> Anyway Python has lots and lots of runtime unreliability like type errors, exceptions, nontermination, and honestly so many that no human being can program in Python.
16:07:09 <alise> They think they can but they program broken Python 99% of the time.
16:07:18 <alise> Python is literally impossible to use.
16:07:42 <oklopol> in python, no matter what you're trying to program, just let your fingers dance for a while and it's done with no errors
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16:08:02 <alise> Just avoid certain patterns!
16:08:04 <uorygl> That's a strange objection, seeing as how I've seen Python code that worked.
16:08:14 <alise> uorygl: Pure chance and trial and error.
16:08:35 <alise> A Python programmer is actually a rough Python approximator who has some sort of idea of a correct language that isn't Python and fails to translate this to Python repeatedly.
16:08:55 <uorygl> So it's impossible to actually know what Python is?
16:09:00 <alise> I never said that.
16:09:18 <uorygl> You said that Python programmers have some sort of idea of a correct language that isn't Python.
16:09:21 <alise> It's impossible for any human-level flawed intelligence to program in Python with basically any accuracy at all.
16:09:40 <oklopol> the only ways to make a mistake in python are the following: forgetting self, forgetting the return statement
16:10:01 <oklopol> well and syntax errors occasionally
16:10:02 <uorygl> Does every function have to have a return statement?
16:10:05 <alise> oklopol: code a checker for the riemann hypo in python
16:10:10 <uorygl> Or something that acts like a return statement?
16:10:31 <oklopol> you really think it's important to be able to prove things with the type system?
16:10:34 <uorygl> Hmm, I wrote a really simple theorem prover in Haskell on a whiteboard once.
16:10:42 <oklopol> when the fuck is that useful
16:11:21 <oklopol> uorygl: they have an implicit return None
16:12:27 <uorygl> I guess I would have difficulty coding a formal version of the Riemann hypothesis.
16:13:01 <uorygl> I can define the complex numbers, but I'm not sure precisely what the definition of the zeta function is.
16:13:42 <oklopol> it's just the infinite sum of n^-i
16:13:43 <alise> oklopol: proving things with the type system is useful for exactly the cases proving is
16:13:49 <alise> whether about programs or mathematics
16:14:17 <uorygl> It's not just that; it's extended to places where that sum is undefined.
16:14:36 <alise> oklopol: eh go fuck yourself :)
16:14:51 <oklopol> i mean yes, it's the analytic continuation of the real series, sure
16:15:04 <oklopol> but doesn't that just mean we use complex exponentiation everywhere else?
16:15:32 <alise> okay, I need a monad for this :P
16:15:58 <uorygl> n is the function's parameter and i is the infinite sum index thingy, right?
16:16:17 <uorygl> Suppose n = 1/2. Then you have 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + . . .
16:16:41 <uorygl> Complex exponentiation doesn't seem to help with that.
16:20:22 <oklopol> lim n->1/2 f(n) is infinity too, so analytic continuation doesn't help with that
16:22:28 <oklopol> i is the argument, better call it something else
16:22:56 <oklopol> i'm gonna look this thing up now :P
16:24:14 <oklopol> yeah okay of course it's not just the same thing then
16:29:07 <alise> Pi(Set) >> lambda A: Pi(A) >> lambda x: A >> Prop,
16:29:07 <alise> lambda A: lambda x: lambda y: Prop(refl = eq(A, x, x)))
16:30:13 <alise> I'm not actually evil enough to code that.
16:31:14 <fax> ths s so fucking annoying I hate this so much
16:31:39 <fax> I'm just trying to define a tex command and I spent like 30 mins getting frustrated because it's not working and it sucks all my motivation to do this out
16:32:02 <fax> it doesn't work
16:34:54 <alise> oh, /dear/, it looks like I'm getting dynamic scoping
16:46:11 <alise> oh shit, i have to handle alpha-conversion
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16:49:31 <alise> hmm i can't seem to express cardinality in dependent type theory
16:54:16 <alise> oh wait i can specify the property of something being equal to the cardinality
16:54:17 <alise> which should be enough
16:57:19 * Sgeo is reading a lot of Less Wrong, but I'm worried I might be failing to think critically about the posts
16:57:32 <alise> that is a problem I often see in Less Wrongers.
16:57:36 <alise> Quite the contradiction.
17:23:20 <alise> Who knew simple term rewriting was so complex?
17:29:28 <impomatic> Which programming editor do you all use?
17:30:13 <alise> I use Emacs for most things.
17:31:02 <fax> tat was awful awulf awful
17:31:44 <fax> "can't seem to express cardinality" just like in set theory, you can't have 'set of all ordinals' or 'set of all cardinals'
17:33:55 <alise> i didn't mean in that sense
17:34:11 <fax> alise that is not obvious, I spent hours thinking about this
17:34:22 <alise> obviously, I didn't mean that sense
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17:34:41 <fax> A lot of times I tell you things which took me a long time to figure out and you say they're obvious :P
17:34:42 <alise> what I mean is i literally cannot see a way to express cardinality of a set
17:34:47 <fax> but they're only obvious in retrospect
17:34:58 <alise> fax: well i usually think things are obvious based on intuition
17:45:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:47:55 <ais523> also, I can't see your trailing spaces
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18:08:30 <ais523> I discovered yesterday that the problem that my supervisor had set me to solve was formally undecidable
18:08:47 <ais523> he thought it would be a "neater" way to do something that I had done already, and which is entirely decidable
18:10:58 <alise> I should continue writing my CAS
18:29:29 <ais523> hmm, what /I/ should do is document some esolangs
18:29:44 <Sgeo> Document Feather!
18:29:47 <ais523> I have both DownRight and Confloddle which are more or less finished, yet completely undocumented and unimplemented
18:29:48 <alise> publish a 4-line interpreter for them
18:29:53 <alise> in, I don't know, Prolog
18:30:14 <ais523> hmm, OK, challenge for me, write a DownRight interp in one line of EgoBot
18:30:22 <ais523> one line of fungot then, which implies either BF or underload
18:30:22 <fungot> ais523: but if you didn't
18:30:42 <ais523> and fitting within IRC's line-length limit
18:31:17 <alise> what is downright again? I forgot.
18:31:20 <ais523> hmm, this would be so much easier in underlambda...
18:31:54 <ais523> alise: Sgeo: OK, you have a rectangular table, whose dimensions are coprime; that's the program
18:32:04 <ais523> each cell contains a possibly empty string of "d" and "r", meaning "down" and "right"
18:32:24 <ais523> and there's an internal queue of instructions, which starts initialised to the content of the top-left cell
18:33:17 <ais523> the interpreter repeatedly dequeues an element from the queue, then moves down if it was "d" or right if it was "r" (wrapping both vertically and horizontally), then enqueues the entire contents of the cell it ended up in
18:33:22 <ais523> that's it; instant tarpit
18:34:41 <Sgeo> I don't see how it can be TC. I don't see a way to loop
18:34:45 <ais523> the restriction to coprime dimensions, incidentally, is something that confuses me about the language; it feels like it ought to be less powerful with the restriction, and there's no way I can think of to compile programs without the restriction into programs with without embedding an interp, but I can't write any non-contrived programs which can't trivially be changed to obey the restriction
18:35:09 <ais523> Sgeo: it wraps both horizontally and vertically
18:35:14 <ais523> e.g. a trivial infinite loop is [r]
18:36:07 <ais523> one nice thing about the lang is that it compiles really easily into cyclic tag / BCT; which is surprising, as those are basically the most tarpitty langs around
18:37:41 <ais523> but only with the coprimality restriction
18:37:51 <Sgeo> HCR stuff on C-Span
18:38:51 <Sgeo> There's no I/O support, is there?
18:39:43 <ais523> Sgeo: no, although in the case of DownRight it wouldn't be too hard to add
18:40:00 <alise> C-Span: US politics channel
18:40:03 <alise> HCR : Health care reform
18:40:17 <ais523> you could cause certain cells to output text as the interp went through them, and other cells to not enqueue anything if they couldn't read a particular char from input
18:40:24 <ais523> alise: ah, OK; I knew C-Span, but not HCR
18:40:27 <alise> So, Americans, if you want to learn about how Obama is going to fix the world by fining people without health insurance from glorious corporations -
18:40:40 <alise> Shift your gaze towards your television!
18:41:25 <deschutron> will people be fined for not buying health insurance under the reform?
18:41:47 <alise> It's /just like/ single payer health care!
18:41:50 <ais523> but I think the health insurance people aren't allowed to rip people off
18:41:54 <alise> Except /more/ /American!/
18:42:06 <alise> ais523: Yes, and Bush wasn't allowed to do a lot of the things he did too...
18:42:13 <deschutron> will the government pay any money towards their insurance?
18:42:16 <ais523> "aren't allowed to" != "won't"
18:42:27 <ais523> deschutron: why, that would be socialism! and so evil! or something like that
18:42:47 <alise> deschutron: I gather that is the case, though of course once you have whatever worst-of-the-worst plan they give you they'll rabidly try to avoid treating you.
18:43:03 <alise> ais523: actually, the Republicans /are/ calling it socialism
18:43:05 <ais523> the funny thing is, the health care system the US seems to be moving into is what in the UK would be described as "privatized"
18:43:13 <ais523> the word has a strange meaning in the US, though
18:43:13 <alise> which has really just elevated the level of political discourse in the US from "pathetically comical" to "brilliant satire"
18:43:32 <ais523> which as far as I can tell, is along the lines of "government existing"
18:43:35 <alise> It means STEALING PEOPLE'S MONEY; like Robin Hood.
18:43:58 <alise> ais523: And yet they decry any advances in morals from the stone age - it'll cause anarchy, they say, a society without morals.
18:44:16 <ais523> government is clearly evil; so you need morals in order to replace it
18:44:42 <alise> Government should be replaced with the only moral force in the universe: CAPITALISM!
18:44:51 <alise> I'd laugh but that's the definition of anarcho-capitalism.
18:44:58 <alise> harmonic(n) := ∑ —
18:45:04 <alise> WHO NEEDS TEX WHEN YOU HAVE UNICODE
18:46:05 <alise> Yes because of COMMUNISTS
18:46:19 <ais523> yes, but they're violently opposed to the government spending it
18:46:45 <Sgeo> The Republicans don't want people to be forced to buy insurance. Wonder what their position on car insurance is.
18:46:51 <alise> ais523: as the only other Ubuntu user I know of (AnMaster uses his own distro almost, but not entirely, unlike Ubuntu) - install ttf-droid if you haven't already, then set Application/document/desktop fonts to Droid Sans 10; window titles to Droid Sans Bold 11, and if you want fixed width to Droid Sans Mono 10.
18:46:59 <alise> It's just like DejaVu Sans but not as ugly. :P
18:47:15 * Sgeo used to use Ubuntu
18:47:17 <ais523> I actually like DejaVu Sans...
18:47:27 <alise> ais523: then you'll like Droid Sans more :P
18:47:28 <alise> Sgeo: I drive a PATRIOT'S car, my dear friend. And I ain't gonna hurt nobody!
18:47:48 <alise> Sgeo: Whatchoo doin' puttin' on that seatbelt parner'? Are you suggestin' or implicatin' that I may not be the safest driver around?
18:47:57 <alise> Excuse me but have you SEEN my car? Nobody could crash in this beauty!
18:48:47 <ais523> wow, I've just found a particularly stupid YouTube comment ("I love eevee (eevee backwards)")
18:48:56 <alise> ais523: gahahahaha
18:49:02 <ais523> strangely, youtube comment quality seems to depend a lot on where you look
18:49:57 <alise> (stupid interwebs)
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18:50:42 <ais523> ooh, new spambot on Esolang
18:52:12 -!- adam_d has joined.
18:52:24 <alise> interfaces are hard
18:53:35 <ais523> deleted the page already, but it was trying to advertise DDOS attacks, or maybe disadvertise them
18:53:48 <ais523> it was a warning not to buy DDOS from someone because their DDOSes were shit, or lines to that effect
18:54:10 <ais523> also, the main reason I use Ubuntu is that it's the path of least resistance
18:56:34 <deschutron> i had gentoo earlier, then installed ubuntu to try it, then my gentoo drive crashed, and then i never got around to installing a different distro
18:57:19 <AnMaster> <alise> ais523: then you'll like Droid Sans more :P <-- I tried that font, I prefer Dejavu sans over it
18:57:41 <alise> I didn't talk to you.
18:57:51 <AnMaster> alise, you highlighted me the line before
19:00:14 <ais523> this argument is going nowhere...
19:01:05 * Sgeo feels like P-Dub
19:01:52 * Sgeo has homework to do.
19:02:17 <pikhq> deschutron: US taxation is rather below that of Europe, but US taxation + health care soaks up a *lot* more money than people in Europe pay on just taxes.
19:03:17 <pikhq> And many, many people in the US are convinced that the government spending money is EVIL.
19:03:26 <pikhq> Except when it's the military. In which case FUCK YEAH.
19:05:32 <alise> anyone know jsmath
19:07:27 -!- deschutron has left (?).
19:07:33 <Sgeo> I know it's used on MathOverflow
19:18:07 <fax> I have to click 'reload math' every single time
19:21:11 <impomatic> Hmmm... I just installed Droid Sans and Deja Vu along with about 10 other programming fonts.
19:21:25 <impomatic> Not sure which one I'm going to stick with.
19:29:43 <alise> Droid Sans is not a programming font; it is a sans font.
19:37:09 <impomatic> Whatever the full name is, Droid Sans Mono or something
19:37:24 <alise> I like Inconsolata.
19:37:32 <alise> Also Monaco and Consolas.
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19:40:43 <impomatic> My old editor doesn't work with Windows 7 so I'm just trying a few new editors and fonts.
19:43:31 <alise> impomatic: Just take the plunge and learn Emacs.
19:43:48 <alise> hmm... /me wonders what the best name for f(x) is in a term-rewriting language; it's not exactly an application
19:43:50 <alise> maybe an association
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19:45:30 <fax> impomatic do you do lisp
19:50:35 <ais523> alise: do you mean f(x) as in making f rewrite x? or, as in f(x) is the data that's rewritten?
19:50:53 <alise> I'm just calling them applications, so meh
19:52:57 * alise decides that barf is not the best name for the error-reporting function
19:58:11 <oerjan> basic alarm report function
20:09:49 <alise> fax: well for one barfing isn't fatal...
20:10:00 -!- coppro has joined.
20:15:59 <alise> coppro: we're discussing the fatality of barfing
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20:18:50 * Sgeo wonders how well cryonics plays with organ donation
20:19:10 <alise> If you just freeze your head, perfectly well.
20:19:12 <alise> If not, not at all.
20:19:43 <alise> Well, you would have to contact the cryonics organisation to work out how to do the organ donation too, I imagine; but I bet it's quite a common request.
20:19:44 <Sgeo> They can't, say, take out my liver and freeze my liverless body?
20:19:53 <alise> The point of that being?
20:20:01 <Sgeo> alise, don't know, just saying
20:20:13 <alise> They might be able to. Ask them.
20:20:28 <alise> http://alcor.org/Contact/index.html
20:20:38 <Sgeo> Also, any reasearch on how much of brain structure is destroyed by freezing?
20:21:19 <alise> http://alcor.org/cryomyths.html#myth2 /me tries to find the other thing
20:21:53 <alise> http://alcor.org/AboutCryonics/index.html
20:22:06 <alise> See near the bottom.
20:22:06 <alise> Of course this is not objective.
20:22:09 <alise> But anyone who even says the word cryonics get exiled from cryobiologist circles anyway.
20:22:25 <alise> (You're actually not allowed to be part of the main cryobiology organisation if you do anything related to cryonics.)
20:22:32 <alise> So you are unlikely to find any third-party research, alas.
20:22:38 <alise> It is fairly cheap though.
20:26:12 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that it's unlikely to be helpful if I die in the near future. At this point, I seem to be healthy, so if I die, it is likely due to an accident..
20:26:28 <Sgeo> Well, actually, I guess accident victims do die in hospitals later sometimes, so
20:33:53 <fax> can you tell me ANYTHIGN mathematica does which will impress me
20:34:10 <Sgeo> "The plan is not for "them" to revive us. The plan is that we, the Alcor community, will revive ourselves."
20:34:20 <Sgeo> That's somewhat comforting
20:34:35 <Sgeo> Of course, if Alcor [or whatever organization] goes bust..
20:34:48 <fax> On a somewhat facetious note, in sci.math, Archimedes Plutonium has been describing his reconstruction of mathematics where the maximum integer is 10^500.
20:36:00 <AnMaster> fax, do you mean N_(10^500)? As in a modulo-thingy
20:37:46 <AnMaster> fax, how does he define 10^500+1 btw?
20:38:57 <ais523> AnMaster: bounded integers are easy enough to come up with; in that case, 10^500+1 simply wouldn't have a valid answer, like 1/0 doesn't
20:41:28 <fizzie> On the other hand, Archimedes Plutonium.
20:41:44 <fax> http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/a-computational-perspective-on-set-theory/#comment-43960
20:41:59 <fizzie> I would assume whatever he says make as much sense as what comes out of Mentifex's "supercomputer AI Mind".
20:42:07 <Sgeo> Who's Archimedes Plutonium?
20:42:30 <fizzie> A well-known Usenet personage. (I don't know if he is active elsewhere too.)
20:42:33 <fax> Archimedes Plutonium (born July 5, 1950) is, according to his own self-description, "The King of Science"
20:42:44 <fax> Plutonium believes himself to be the greatest living scientist, but few if any others share this assessment despite Plutonium's regular activity on the Internet to convince people.
20:43:35 <fizzie> Also the universe is a giant plutonium atom.
20:43:36 <Sgeo> Why is a math forum in sci.math? AFAIK, math is not a science
20:45:49 <fizzie> That's probably a matter of definition; OED defines "mathematics" as "the science of space, number, quantity, and arrangement, whose methods involve logical reasoning and usually the use of symbolic notation, and which includes geometry, arithmetic, algebra, and analysis; mathematical operations or calculations".
20:46:52 <fizzie> Anyway, there's sci.philosophy.meta, too; is that a science?
20:47:56 <fax> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/msg/4ed1481f25475af2
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21:08:53 <alise> <fax> can you tell me ANYTHIGN mathematica does which will impress me
21:08:56 <alise> You already know CASs. So: No.
21:09:05 <alise> It can "prove" some things by simplification. It can calculate some things quickly.
21:09:10 <alise> It can rewrite things symbolically.
21:09:14 <alise> It can do algebra, and calculus.
21:09:44 <alise> <Sgeo> It occurs to me that it's unlikely to be helpful if I die in the near future. At this point, I seem to be healthy, so if I die, it is likely due to an accident..
21:09:45 <alise> <Sgeo> Well, actually, I guess accident victims do die in hospitals later sometimes, so
21:09:49 <alise> There are arrangements for that.
21:09:54 <alise> It is just like organ donation.
21:09:56 <alise> <Sgeo> Of course, if Alcor [or whatever organization] goes bust..
21:10:05 <alise> They are extremely financially conservative, but yes that is a possibility.
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21:12:37 <Sgeo> alise, not if my head is crushed in an accident
21:12:43 <Sgeo> Nothing they can do about that
21:12:49 <alise> Then you are totally fucked but that is unlikely.
21:14:22 <alise> You should sign up for cryonics if (p*v)-c >= 0, where p is your estimated probability of cryonics working, v is the value (in the same monetary units as c) you place on a successful cryonics outcome and c is the cost of cryonics
21:15:09 <alise> You get cryonics with your health insurance if you're a USian, so you have to figure out what it adds to that.
21:15:49 <alise> But unless you have a very low estimate of cryonics working, you don't value greatly extended life much, or you simply can't afford it, it's probably positive.
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21:36:15 <alise> In[39]:= FullSimplify[
21:36:15 <alise> a^n + b^n == c^n, {a \[Element] Integers, b \[Element] Integers,
21:36:15 <alise> c \[Element] Integers, a > 0, b > 0, c > 0, n \[Element] Integers,
21:36:19 <alise> Probability of that being hard-coded: 1
21:37:12 <fax> what if you do n > 1 ?
21:37:24 <alise> In[41]:= FullSimplify[
21:37:25 <alise> a^n + b^n == c^n, {a \[Element] Integers, b \[Element] Integers,
21:37:25 <alise> c \[Element] Integers, a > 0, b > 0, c > 0, n \[Element] Integers,
21:37:25 <alise> Out[41]= a^n + b^n == c^n
21:39:34 <fax> mathematica is boring
21:42:30 <fax> http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/FiniteFieldTables/ cool
21:43:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Heh, a bot-tweet refers to "webster's encyclopedic unabridged dictionary of folklore"; that sounds like a good book. (Unfortunately also apparently nonexistant.)
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21:58:50 <alise> We should have m!ⁿ, which is basically m!ⁿ = H(n, m, m!ⁿ), where H = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator.
21:59:04 <alise> So n! is the nth triangular number.
21:59:30 <alise> ! is... logtorial?
22:00:00 <Deewiant> alise: You defined it in terms of itself
22:00:07 <alise> it's called recursion
22:00:10 <alise> I was too lazy to specify a base case
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22:00:53 <Deewiant> I don't see how that works at all, but whatever
22:01:02 <alise> Presumably m!ⁿ = 1 if n < 1.
22:01:25 <fax> alise this so not satisfying me
22:01:30 <fax> it's just sliderst and shit
22:01:53 <alise> m!ⁿ = H(n, m, (m-1)!ⁿ)
22:02:38 <alise> G₆₄!^G₆₄; move over, xkcd.
22:03:13 <coppro> A(A(G₆₄, G₆₄)!^A(G₆₄, G₆₄), A(G₆₄, G₆₄)!^A(G₆₄, G₆₄))
22:03:36 <alise> I'm an ultrafinitist; I don't believe in (G₆₄!^G₆₄)+1
22:03:55 <Deewiant> You shouldn't believe in your own number then either ;-P
22:04:22 <alise> G₆₄!^G₆₄ is the largest number.
22:04:27 <alise> (Ultrafinitism != physical finitism.)
22:04:48 <Deewiant> I forget the details; whatever
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22:13:05 <uorygl> G_64 is the largest number ever used seriously, so it's the largest number.
22:13:56 <uorygl> No, better: the largest number is one less than the smallest prime number greater than G_64.
22:14:25 <uorygl> A somewhat recursive definition: the largest number is -1.
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22:14:52 <coppro> 0 isn't a number, then?
22:15:02 <uorygl> Of course it's a number. But it's way, way, way smaller than -1.
22:15:15 * uorygl ponders a definition of that largest number that doesn't mention any larger numbers.
22:16:15 <uorygl> Here's something easier to define.
22:16:27 <coppro> uorygl: Ah, I see. You subscribe to the believe that -1 is 0b11111111111111111111111...
22:16:28 <uorygl> The largest number is 162. 162 + 1 = 0.
22:16:54 <uorygl> So, there are 0 numbers. But it's the big 0, not the small 0.
22:17:55 <alise> coppro: *0b....11111
22:18:26 <alise> So, if -1 = 0b...1111, then -2 = -1 - 1 = (0b...1111) - (0b...0001) = (0b...1110).
22:18:28 <coppro> alise: same difference; it's an infinite number of 1s
22:19:05 <alise> Yes, but your notation made no sense :P
22:19:11 <alise> Anyway, so -2 = infinity minus 1.
22:20:10 <fax> 1/2 is the biggest number... 2 = 1.11111111... = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... so infinity = 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = 1/2
22:20:39 <uorygl> So 1/2 = 82, 1/3 = 109, 1/5 = 98, 1/7 = 70, and 1/11 = 89.
22:20:41 <alise> coppro: So 2/0 = -2?
22:21:10 <alise> -1*0 = 1. Wait, what?
22:21:23 <alise> 1*0 = -1. Wait, WHAT?!?!
22:21:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, the language?
22:21:44 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
22:21:51 <alise> It's been actively developed for ages now...
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22:21:53 <uorygl> I wonder if square roots exist in my word-where-the-biggest-number-is-162.
22:22:03 <alise> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, the language?
22:22:03 <alise> <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
22:22:04 <alise> <alise> It's been actively developed for ages now...
22:22:04 <alise> * phantomhoover (~user@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #esoteric
22:22:05 <alise> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, the language?
22:22:07 <alise> <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
22:22:09 <alise> <alise> It's been actively developed for ages now...
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22:22:24 <alise> So what's -1 * -1 in my cubic truth?
22:22:29 <alise> Presumably -1; after all, inf * inf = inf. :D
22:22:52 <alise> I HAVE CRACKED THE CUBIC SECRET TO MATHEMATICS!!!
22:23:15 <alise> Gene Ray will soon appoint me Deputy Doctor of Cubic.
22:23:48 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: pretty easy to prove
22:23:51 <alise> It's the definition of multiplication.
22:24:18 <fax> Lemma 1 : -1 * x = -x
22:24:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integers#Construction
22:24:23 <fax> Lemma 2 : --x = x
22:24:29 <fax> Theorem -1 * -1 = 1.
22:24:41 <fax> Proof: instantiate lemma 1 with x = 1, then apply lemma 2
22:24:50 <alise> (a-b)*(c-d)=(ac+bd)-(ad+bc)
22:25:02 <fax> my proof works in any ring
22:25:07 <fax> integers are just one ring
22:25:28 <fax> Phantom_Hoover, Lemma 1 is the difficult one actually, Lemma 2 is trivial
22:25:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you don't understand
22:25:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: these things are true because they are HOW WE DEFINE THEM
22:25:45 <alise> there is no underlying truth
22:26:10 <fax> alise actually there is....
22:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I won't be happy until I see it derived from a well-defined set of axioms.
22:26:22 <Sgeo> It's presumably possible to define a system in which -1 * -1 = -1, but it would break a LOT of things
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22:26:31 <alise> Prelude> let times (a,b) (c,d) = ((a*c)+(b*d))-((a*d)+(b*c))
22:26:31 <alise> Prelude> times (0,1) (0,1)
22:26:39 <alise> axioms: peano arithmetic pretty much
22:26:44 <alise> plus a definition of Z
22:27:00 <fax> I'll add thit theorem to my al-jabr :P
22:27:08 <uorygl> Take a step one foot forward!
22:27:19 <alise> as if nobody has ever defined integer multiplication using axioms
22:27:24 <uorygl> Take a step -1 feet forward! I guess you step backwards.
22:27:29 <fax> alise, you're way to prove it is good too
22:27:40 <fax> a lot better actually
22:27:41 <alise> *your! Aah, it burns! (Sorry.)
22:27:49 <fax> but mine is more general
22:27:53 <uorygl> Take -1 steps one foot forward! I guess you do the reverse of a forward step, so go backwards again.
22:28:00 <alise> Proof By Here's The Definition, Just Fucking Evaluate It
22:28:06 <uorygl> Take -1 steps -1 feet forward! Okay, do the reverse of a backward step. Step forwards.
22:28:20 <uorygl> The definition isn't random; it was chosen because it makes sense.
22:35:13 <fax> http://github.com/odge/al-jabr/blob/master/Abstract/Ring.v
22:35:47 <alise> All are acceptable romanisations!
22:40:47 <fax> afwpfhdlho
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23:11:45 <Sgeo> alise_, what LessWrong things do you disagree with?
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23:12:10 <alise_> I'd have to search to recall prior examples.
23:15:16 <fax> it's philosophy man
23:15:21 <fax> you don't agree or disagree with it
23:15:30 <fax> you just read it and think a lot about stuff
23:15:37 <alise_> I would not call Less Wrong philosophy.
23:15:44 <fax> well you can agree or disagree but you don't have to
23:15:46 <alise_> I would say that in general they disdain philosophy.
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23:31:51 <fax> he didn't really say anything that I found funny :(
23:32:07 <oklopol> after your formal proof he said he will not be happy until seeing a formal proof
23:32:36 <oklopol> i thought that was funny, even though i guess you could've elaborated a bit
23:33:06 <fax> I left him the interesting cases to prove himself
23:33:24 <fax> that's the best way to really understand why cubic truth contradicts ring theory
23:33:35 <fax> but alises one is so much sweeter
23:33:43 <fax> (of course only on integers.. but still)
23:34:13 <oklopol> in general what is a*b in cubic truth?
23:34:41 <oklopol> -a*-b = -(ab), if a and b >= 0?
23:34:58 <alise_> hey he might believe in -0 too
23:35:54 <oklopol> if a, b >= 0, what's -a * b?
23:36:29 <fax> someone should email him about -0
23:36:37 * Sgeo once believed in a number more 0-like than 0
23:36:43 <fizzie> Heh, the release notes included in this firmware package of my ADSL modem have a "ZyXEL Confidential" header, and start with: "The information presented in this document is strictly confidential and supplied on the understanding that it will be handled as confidential material. Disclosure of any part of this document to third parties, without the prior written consent from the author, is prohibited." But maybe I shouldn't have told you that!
23:36:56 <fax> Sgeo, I like the sound of that..
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23:38:14 <oklopol> if we have a hausdorff measure, we usually say m({})^0 = 0, and m(S)^0 = 1 for any other set for which m(S) = 0
23:38:34 <oklopol> when we're finding the hausdorff measure, these are the conventions used
23:39:09 <oklopol> so we sort of have these *really zero* measures, when the set is not just zero measure but empty
23:39:52 <oklopol> but in measure theory we're always working with the extended reals, so why not have multiple zeroes too
23:40:58 <oklopol> 1/infinity would probably be the bigger zero, having (1/infinity)^0 = 1
23:41:10 <oklopol> clearly that bigger zero has a sign too
23:41:31 <fizzie> Our maths teacher (highschool?) used to say that 0^0 is "mickey mouse", and then draw the other ear in too.
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23:42:00 <fax> but how is that a mouse?
23:42:13 <fax> and another thing, I've heard about this four color theorem... but WHICH four colors?
23:42:22 <oklopol> but at some point you just have to leave stuff partial, because the next field after reals is quite a lot bigger
23:42:33 <oklopol> red, green and blue, but i don't know the last one
23:42:39 <fax> is it an open problem?
23:43:03 <oklopol> it's definitely not obvious
23:43:06 <fizzie> It is a mouse in the sense that °0° is two-ears-and-a-head. I guess it leaves the rest of the body as an open problem.
23:43:09 <pikhq> fax: Integers between 0 and 3, inclusive.
23:43:20 <fax> fizzie, but it's got two 0's
23:43:31 <fax> 0^0 is ntoation for the exponent
23:43:56 <oklopol> yeah always remember to render the latex
23:45:18 * Sgeo believed that since 1/inf = 0, 0/inf must be more "0-like" than 0
23:46:17 <fax> Sgeo do you know about infintesimals
23:46:26 <fax> (they are real!)
23:46:40 <Sgeo> Heard of them, don't know much about them
23:46:53 <fax> they're so cool man
23:47:21 <oklopol> do 1/inf and 0/inf have something to do with infinitesimals?
23:47:34 <alise_> * Sgeo once believed in a number more 0-like than 0
23:47:37 <fax> you can define integral as as a sum from 0 to N (where N is an infinity) of f[x]*h (where h = 1/N)
23:47:48 <fax> no limits anywhere
23:48:24 <Sgeo> I think I kind of believed that within each number was a real number line, or something
23:48:28 <Sgeo> It's been a while
23:48:45 <Sgeo> Oh, and I was struggling with div by 0:
23:49:47 <Sgeo> 1/0 must = 2/0 because 1/0 * 2/2 = 2/0
23:50:13 <Sgeo> I don't remember if I included 0/0 in that group
23:50:25 <Sgeo> But I remember hypothesizing a "number circle" because inf=-inf
23:50:52 <alise_> there's something like that
23:50:56 <alise_> same circle metaphor :P
23:51:52 <Sgeo> I think wrt /0, I ended up deciding that on a finite scale, those numbers were too far away, but on an infinite scale, they all equaled eachother, making them worthless, or something
23:51:58 <nooga> http://www.freebsdmall.com/
23:52:13 <Sgeo> I also had visions of number systems branching out from number systems
23:52:37 <Gregor> nooga: THAT SITE IS A LIE
23:53:13 <Gregor> nooga: Oh, never mind, it's just painfully slow.
23:53:45 * Sgeo also tried to define a number, ai, pronounced at-i, I'll type it as @, such that |@| = -1
23:54:05 <nooga> alise_: yes, i just noticed that :D
23:54:17 <Sgeo> Could never figure out how to determine |a+b@|
23:54:37 <nooga> that why i was pasting taht :D
23:55:50 <Sgeo> I guess no one's just going to say what the answer would be
23:56:19 <Sgeo> I think |a|-|b| is the wrong answer somehow, I _think_ I tried it
23:56:48 <Sgeo> Um, because |a+b| != |a| + |b|, I think
23:57:59 <alise_> or (a+b)*@, or something else entirely
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