< 1269043208 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can compute it for 2x2 and 3x3 :P < 1269043212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know some of the rules < 1269043216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all < 1269043216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other dimensions that doesn't work unless you use (n-1) vectors to cross < 1269043254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, I can compute it for arbitrarily large matrixes < 1269043267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hate anything larger than 3x3 < 1269043275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the huge amount of work in it < 1269043289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding sub-determinants and so on (if that is the English term for it) < 1269043320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh hm < 1269043342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but with n-1, how could that even work? < 1269043354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you can only take det() on a square matrix right? < 1269043379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which means that n-1 for 5 wouldn't really work out as far as I can see < 1269043496 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269043525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you let the product of v_1, ..., v_(n-1) be the unique vector x such that det (v_1,v_2,...,v_(n-1),y = x.y for all y < 1269043536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*,y) < 1269043550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mentally converts that to math notation
< 1269043562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I find it *extremely* hard to read ASCIIed math notation < 1269043572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But did you know that the coefficients of the characteristic polynomial of H, where H is the Hessenberg matrix from Arnoldi iteration of matrix A and vector b, turn up (with negative sign) as the last column of pinv(K)*A*K, where K is the Krylov matrix for A, b and pinv() is the "usual" pseudoinverse? < 1269043573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you i'm not sure if my definition has the right handedness < 1269043582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for 3 dimensions) < 1269043597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is pinv? < 1269043598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not just switch things around a bit < 1269043621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said, the usual (Moore-Penrose?) pseudoinverse. < 1269043622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascii math notation is easy you're just a whiner :) < 1269043634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you define handedness for more than 3 dimensions? < 1269043638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This was a homework bit for yesterday's Matrix Computations thing.) < 1269043665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh right < 1269043695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: such that the product of e_1, e_2, ..., e_(n-1) is e_n, i presume < 1269043723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e_i being the unit vector of the i'th axis) < 1269043769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means my handedness above was right for 3, i think < 1269043818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269043919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw one intuition for determinant (which ignores the sign though) is that if you take the hypercube spanned by e_1,...,e_n (i.e. the cube with all coordinates in [0,1]) and apply a matrix M to it, then the _volume_ of the resulting hyperparallelogram is abs(det M). < 1269043937 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269043973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anything involving the word "hypercube" definitely doesn't feel like related to my "intuition" < 1269043992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or equivalently, the hypercube spanned by vectors v_1,...,v_n has volume abs(det(v_1,...,v_n)). < 1269044003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well you can use it or 2 and 3 dimensions too < 1269044006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1269044013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269044016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 1? < 1269044021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is a trivial case I gues < 1269044026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1269044051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so for 2x2 mat, that would be ad-bc < 1269044056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then what are the sides? < 1269044059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/hypercube/hyperparallelogram/, last one < 1269044061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of a rectangle? < 1269044072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1269044112 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it pretty: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hw7.pdf (Usually my homework answers are horrible handwaving, but this one is pretty explicit. Though that does steal a pretty complicated Theorem 9.7 out of the lecturer.) < 1269044134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw hyperparallelogram is probably not the right term, although it _is_ a parallelogram in 2 dims < 1269044147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to take math courses
< 1269044185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what language is that code? < 1269044193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: one corner of the parallelogram is the origin. two of the others are (a,b) and (c,d), the last one is their sum < 1269044218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I realised < 1269044229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after you said "hyperparallelogram" < 1269044238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Matlab, and the >> is just the prompt. < 1269044244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1269044275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or Octave, in this case, but with a Matlab prompt to make the recipient feel more at home. < 1269044293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269044294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269044317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, 3 dims is parallelepiped < 1269044342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes < 1269044346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, didn't you know? < 1269044353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i hadn't quite made that a household name, though i've certainly seen it :D < 1269044361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I admit however I was fuzzy on the spelling < 1269044368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I had a math teacher mention it a lot < 1269044378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during the last few weeks < 1269044425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Coxeter called the generalization of a parallelepiped in higher dimensions a parallelotope." < 1269044431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the phrase "rhombus, the neglected parallelogram!" stuck in my head, but I can't remember where I read it from. < 1269044437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_that_ i'm not sure i've heard < 1269044466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, he also loves making a huge distinction between "geometrical vectors" and "algebraic vectors" < 1269044472 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269044480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure of translations here) < 1269044508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia seems to call the former http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_vector < 1269044555 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no chance it's Triangle and Robert, is it? < 1269044564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Couldn't you just call it "paral".("le"x($dim-1))."piped"? Then you'd always have the dimension explicitly in the name. < 1269044589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you _could_, but that would be evil. < 1269044606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, oh that, one of the worst strips I ever started reading and then gave up after 120 or so strips < 1269044632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you pronounce it? < 1269044646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what programming language? < 1269044662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the Perl notation. < 1269044665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269044666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that x should be ^ in my view < 1269044681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in math < 1269044717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you would have to allow for $dim being a variable, and/or transfinite < 1269044720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I was worried you'd think I'd just want the number there, and not actual repetitititition of lelele. < 1269044742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in math it is $*d*i*m isn't it? ;P < 1269044753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not a chance to avoid that once it's generalized < 1269044768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats AnMaster -----###
< 1269044788 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269044791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: triangle and robert is great! not that i've read much < 1269044793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but f u < 1269044811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we have different tastes clearly < 1269044818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, die < 1269044822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"well drawn" is not in your list :P < 1269044827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Pythonist would (well, could) say "paral"+"le"*(dim-1)+"piped", I believe. < 1269044838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not so much in mine either < 1269044856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I loved it < 1269044857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is thyat string duplication with *? < 1269044867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1269044892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does string multiplication if you give a string and a number. < 1269044912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> "paral"+"le"*4+"piped" < 1269044913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'parallelelelepiped' < 1269044932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and I have the same tastes? o.O < 1269044959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't *think* it was Triangle and Robert, though; I have a feeling it was a human(oid) character in some bit of fiction. < 1269044990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it was just an old Nukees strip: http://www.nukees.com/comics/19980318a.gif < 1269045009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least that's not well drawn either. < 1269045012 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algebraic! < 1269045060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1269045115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On rhombuses: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/1/9/locked-brutal-combat/ < 1269045135 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269045155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You mean "rhombi", don't you? < 1269045167 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either works. < 1269045173 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pl. rhombuses (7-8 -us's); 8 rhombi." I guess they both do, yes. < 1269045189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds better as "rhombi", though also a bit vacuum-roboty. < 1269045196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhoomby. < 1269045198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had just typed "rhombus" already and it's less keypresses to add "es" than to backspace twice and add "i". < 1269045213 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhoomba, the rhombus-shaped Roomba. < 1269045214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use rhomboi for the original greek (i think) < 1269045255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Have you read that particular Penny-Arcade comic, by the way? < 1269045255 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so i says to her, though. < 1269045267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What does that even mean? < 1269045267 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: this is fantastic. maybe after this we can subjugate some indigenous peoples. or, the devil. you are a woman raised as a man. < 1269045282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subjugating the devil sounds dangerous business. < 1269045294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269045305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't make me laugh out loud atm < 1269045310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people sleeping near here < 1269045337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha you're better off using your grandma as a math forum than #math < 1269045348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey wanna hear about this interesting thing i came up with?" "go fuck yourself" < 1269045493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dammit i'm laughing because of fungot but I'm trying to look all serious < 1269045493 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my guess? the bullshit. there's no shame in that. well, he hasn't been playing very well. and, i was pushing them, and then i saw something. something big. < 1269045496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daaaamn youuuuuuuuu < 1269045498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1269045498 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube < 1269045501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: A penis? < 1269045501 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: annarchy's mother: anne claire, eat your dinner. you know, potty issues. there. he's got these friends back at the flag named earthquake and demise, right? i bet it's something bad in there. < 1269045553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style oa < 1269045554 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found. < 1269045555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style pa < 1269045555 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) < 1269045557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269045567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style darwin < 1269045567 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) < 1269045570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, hi there < 1269045573 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he shows " page 111) that when naturalists confine their attention to agriculture, were fnord when a species has once disappeared it never reappeared.), and no doubt every female flower which i examined appeared more like a dandy than a warrior, but he has seen/ carcasses :) dead seals. wherever these slaty feldspathic rocks abound, greenstone seems common; at/ c. persica et turcica, mr. f. fnord six feet, in proporti < 1269045583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smilies < 1269045585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yag < 1269045590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah* < 1269045600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1269045600 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1269045632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, this should prevent alise from laughing if he wan'ts to avoid it < 1269045634 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, and by the governments of both old and new member states have long since been prepared and sent to parliament. < 1269045636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want's* < 1269045651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, stop being funny! < 1269045652 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i am happy to say that any such principle needs to be stressed that the guidelines in leader+ now need to be repeated. i have to say that i have already criticised the method used for each individual, which remains and will always be positive and enriching factor for europe. < 1269045669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1269045698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was invited in this math high school thing, but i didn't go because i had a gf < 1269045699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269045723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz true love is more important than math < 1269045735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we broke up when i started high school < 1269045747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and no doubt every female flower which i examined appeared more like a dandy than a warrior, but he has seen/ carcasses :) dead seals." --Darwin < 1269046159 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about true math? < 1269046178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mathematics that can be proved is not the true mathematics. < 1269046184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., only the negations of proved things are true. < 1269046189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not only < 1269046287 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol what < 1269046293 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 * -1 = -1 < 1269046324 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I understood cubic truth :( < 1269046382 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timecube? < 1269046419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-m * -n = -(m*n) clearly < 1269046426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME CUBE IS BETTER THAN YOUR QUEER GOD < 1269046426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore -1 * 1 = 1 < 1269046440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/SQHYl.jpg . Clicking a piece toggles the piece, and pieces orthogonally adjacent. THe goal is to get all pieces to be cylinders, or all pieces to be cones. This configuration should be solvable in 3 moves. How easy/hard are those moves to figure out? I know how to solve it given a live board, but it always takes me a while < 1269046514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, are there any unsolvable configurations? If not, I can simplify my reset algorithm a bit. Currently, it just blanks the board and simulates 3 clicks < 1269046633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo what is this made in?? < 1269046645 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Clicking a piece toggles the piece, and pieces orthogonally adjacent" -- lights out!! this game is OLD < 1269046652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some virtual world. < 1269046657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell because it's sgeo and it has health meters < 1269046658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in Active Worlds. The code for the puzzle itself is in C# < 1269046659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shitty 3d < 1269046661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see! < 1269046666 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's idk equations in Z2 < 1269046667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not add the health meters < 1269046685 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can solve every solvable puzzle in a maximum of 9 clicks :D < 1269046688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION proves the trivial
< 1269046689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking a piece doesn't toggle all pieces in a row or column < 1269046718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I originally programmed it that way, since I misremembered the original game we're um, recreating < 1269046774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is http://mathoverflow.net/questions/18696/how-to-write-if-else-as-mathematic-equation stupid? < 1269046791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels vindicated by oklopol's question.
< 1269046879 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stupide because programs are alredy formal language < 1269046888 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to turn everything into 'math' < 1269046891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already IS < 1269046897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because he clearly has no idea how booleans work < 1269046911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to think everything as to be arithmetic < 1269046959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: oerjan, another thing I really want to do is make a 4D (or more D..) world that you can immerse yourself in :(" <<< been wanting to do this since like forever < 1269046993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes interest
< 1269047006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/4d/vis/vis.html < 1269047011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been searching for answers
< 1269047014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The question is like asking "how do you write if-else in a program". < 1269047060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, change that. < 1269047067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How do you write if-else in programming" < 1269047118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you shot if-else < 1269047178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you don't know the definition of a determinant? < 1269047199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1269047200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269047226 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway definitions are overrated < 1269047239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you can prove for each piece that there is a sequence of moves to toggle _just_ that piece, then all configurations are solvable, otherwise not. < 1269047242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could, for instance, define yourself sufficiently formal psuedocode and just write "if foo then bar else baz". Or you could do that in lambda calculus. Or you could just write it as a piecewise function. Or you could do some rather clever arithmetic to get it down to a single arithmetic statement (though I doubt that's feasible with the example there) < 1269047247 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have two equivalent characterizations of something, which one is the 'definition'? < 1269047270 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one used in practice < 1269047291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is an easy way to switch on 0/1 arithmetically < 1269047291 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that places the term in a category of differentiated terms < 1269047291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because any others can be solved by combining those sequences < 1269047293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an else clause < 1269047298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact definition though < 1269047307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've figured out how to toggle just the middle piece < 1269047309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, right. < 1269047318 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way I saw a really gorgeous proof using iverson notation < 1269047329 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Concrete Maths < 1269047330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think I have < 1269047345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol oklopol has completely lost respect for me < 1269047357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh wait you said just 3 moves? then what i said is not true. in fact it cannot be. < 1269047381 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I would think of the inverse problem < 1269047390 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting from the solution, what moves take you to a given state < 1269047392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if I can show that it's always solvable in X moves, that's enough < 1269047402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it should always be <= 3 moves i mean < 1269047433 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that due to the way I scramble the board, there's a solution in 3 moves for any state achievable by this scrambler < 1269047451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: as fax said, 9 moves is enough for everything that can be solved < 1269047470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 moves should be enough for anybody < 1269047628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how is that trivial? < 1269047643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it doesn't prove that everything has a solution < 1269047644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the question was about how you'd express if-then in math? i just read "what natural set of mathematical operations on reals can be used to compile if-thens to math?" < 1269047684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still don't see how 9 moves is enough to solve all solvable cases < 1269047699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you press twice on the same place that = doing nothing < 1269047701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because you never need to click a piece twice (just cancels out), and the order you click them doesn't matter < 1269047706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1269047710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ahem < 1269047715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you just abused = < 1269047723 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I didn't < 1269047731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))) < 1269047733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more than i did < 1269047735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: if you have two equivalent characterizations of something, which one is the 'definition'?" <<< depends on author, in this case i'd be asking for *a* definition < 1269047766 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^9 different sets of moves you can do < 1269047770 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^9 different boards.... < 1269047782 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they are equal sets though < 1269047833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If two different move sets can take you to the same board, then the answer is no, right? < 1269047842 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269047844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: lol oklopol has completely lost respect for me" <<< i was just reading logs, i only lose respect for myself for not remembering definitions, from other people i just expect the capability to learn the matters at hand at a given time < 1269047862 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't really care about having a definition < 1269047869 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I know the important properties of it < 1269047876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ahem < 1269047880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: CONSTRUCTIVISM BITCH < 1269047950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell (9*8*7)/6 + (9*8)/2 + 9 < 1269047960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: fax: you just abused =" <<< why is it abusing the definitions, it's the relation a^2 = 1 in the abelian group of move sequences < 1269047964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1269047965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn no egobot < 1269047967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the definitions"? < 1269047970 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"=". < 1269047986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain isn't really here, also wow i finished the log < 1269047993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: fax always whines about me abusing = < 1269047995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: btw your problem can be solved with determinants < 1269048006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i don't know much about constructivism < 1269048017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has worse problems than this
< 1269048023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this issue is way more subtle than me < 1269048026 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get away with not understanding this in depth < 1269048033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another puzzle that I can't get away with it < 1269048038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269048093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't really know what determinants are? I think something to do with matrixes and solving multiple multivariable equations? < 1269048094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i have a Determinant.hs file. let's see... < 1269048181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you know even a few of its basic properties, you'll probably know a definition for the determinant :P < 1269048272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: constructivism: you must actually show a value that obeys certain constraints, if you want to prove such a value exists < 1269048273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. if the determinant is nonzero then every equation with that matrix is solvable. it turns out your problem can be expressed as a matrix equation. < 1269048278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do this by removing ~~p -> p. you probably know that < 1269048289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~p is pretty damn strong evidence for p though :P < 1269048307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it be expressed as a matrix equation? o.O < 1269048372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i know that much, how does that make fax's statement incorrect? < 1269048379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: a 9*9 matrix. item M_i,j is 1 if pushing piece i toggles piece j, 0 otherwise. < 1269048436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can we be sure that that maps to something that determinants are sensible for? < 1269048476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are used when solving matrix equations < 1269048516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be patient. now make a vector v of length 9 with 0's and 1's. then M v is a vector whose i'th coordinate is odd iff pushing the pieces that are 1 in v will toggle that piece. < 1269048533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh i was just talking about his I don't need a definition for determinants I have the properties < 1269048550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1269048556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a constructivist - he's one, being a dependent folken - would demand a definition before even talking about properties < 1269048563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(folken: singular of folk) < 1269048566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1269048567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is really a question about the field Z_2, but we can talk about odd and even instead) < 1269048574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stands towards reason < 1269048579 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course to "folken" < 1269048581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, geometric logic proofs! < 1269048603 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I read tutorials about this sort of math? < 1269048625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: now it happens to be that you can achieve _all_ vectors as M v in this way, iff det M is odd. < 1269048640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words all configurations are solvable iff det M is odd. < 1269048715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other if it isn't, then you can do some matrix operations to get a summary of exactly what configurations you can solve. < 1269048721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does each vector represent, exactly? < 1269048734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v is what buttons you push < 1269048750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the original vector v represents button pushing. 0 no, 1 yes. < 1269048761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 maybe < 1269048771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should do a tri-valued logic that doesn't just have 3 = unknown it's boring < 1269048772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M v represents buttons toggled. odd yes, even no. < 1269048780 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M is basically a function that takes a vector and returns a vector? < 1269048787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. < 1269048822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have to solve M v = y for v, where M is the rules of the game, and y is the desired outcome (which things are circles on the board), and if det M is odd, then we can divide by M to get M v = y <==> v = M^-1 y, and now "M^-1 y" is just an ordinary vector, which is a solution for the game < 1269048833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not used to struggling with math
< 1269048869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: incidentally if det M is odd, then we can _invert_ the matrix to get all solutions. < 1269048878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(inversion mod 2 here) < 1269048886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is trying his best to ruin oerjan's explanation by shortcutting it
< 1269048894 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1269048898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well more like being faster i guess < 1269048905 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If M v's exist enough such that there's an M v for each configuration, all configurations are solvable < 1269048909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed is always my problem < 1269048930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1269048948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, *If v's exist < 1269048972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you learn what an odd and even determinant means < 1269048986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about odd/even usually, it's about nonzer/zero < 1269049023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just we're working in Z_2 here (the space with just two objects, odd and even), so zero = even, and the only nonzero object is "odd" < 1269049037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nonzero < 1269049041 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes he asked about a more pressing problem
< 1269049048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z_2 is also known as booleans < 1269049056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269049057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269049067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say booleans are the boolean algebra formed by those two, not the field < 1269049087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i guess i see the algebra as built upon the type < 1269049088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps type inference will take care of that < 1269049089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: determinants work in any _field_. we are really working in the field Z_2 (mod 2 arithmetic) here < 1269049098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so boolean is true | false, the algebra is all the operations < 1269049099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269049108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats oklopol, then himself -----###
< 1269049113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269049116 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, M is just a matrix? < 1269049119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269049130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal matrix, but the field is Z_2 and not real numbers like usually < 1269049131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a tutorial on this stuff < 1269049140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was a function < 1269049146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:37:12 However, ((int)NULL) does not necessarily equal 0. < 1269049146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that means (int)(void*)0 doesn't have to be 0, heh < 1269049154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was like "You're dividing by a function?" < 1269049165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there is a one-one correspondence between matrices and linear functions between vectors < 1269049166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is, see matrices are in fact a representation for "linear functions", which are these simple kind of functions < 1269049170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269049174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay i won! < 1269049198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly only one of us is needed here < 1269049201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to bed < 1269049204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you learn all this? Better yet, how can I learn all this? < 1269049211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edumacation! < 1269049214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well f*g is clearly function composition by symbol analogy < 1269049215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well university does wonders < 1269049221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f/g is the reverse of function composition < 1269049231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly 1/f gives (g,h) where f is the composition of the two < 1269049232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd suggest reading books < 1269049234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and clearly 1=id < 1269049237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so id/f is (g,h) < 1269049239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :work out the rest yourself < 1269049240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No online stuff? < 1269049266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: linear algebra for the matrices in general, then number theory/higher algebra for the Z_2 part < 1269049269 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269049289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ring/field theory from the higher algebra) < 1269049307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there probably is online stuff, but online tutorials for math stuff are usually only found for trivial things < 1269049312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might belong in that category < 1269049362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course you can find books online but i mean these sort of quick tutorials to X you can't really find on galois cohomologies < 1269049377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i have no idea what those are) < 1269049433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: also read what alise said about composition, that's exactly what matrix division is, inverting the linear function represented by the matrix. < 1269049464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a bit of galois theory, and a bit of cohomology, but i have no idea how they combine... < 1269049468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out linear functions are invertible (they have normal function inverses) iff their determinant is nonzero < 1269049483 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't even recognize what "galois" is supposed to mean
< 1269049492 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a name < 1269049494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evariste galois < 1269049502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that makes a lot of sense somehow < 1269049525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes, especially if you remember the volume definition of the determinant < 1269049537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still doesn't quite know what a determinant is
< 1269049555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's just a function from matrices over a field to the field itself < 1269049561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a few nice properties < 1269049575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that volume thing i explained to AnMaster earlier today < 1269049580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in special cases like reals you have, as oerjan mentioned, interesting geometric properties too < 1269049610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no clue how to even get started learning this stuff
< 1269049636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get a book on linear algebra and do exercises like crazy < 1269049636 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stuff?? < 1269049649 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah linear algebra is the best thign < 1269049653 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but determinants arean't..... < 1269049669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with determinants < 1269049680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in Z_2 < 1269049697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you don't have any of their less useful properties, just invertibility < 1269049715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean most of the time we just need to know whether the determinant is nonzero < 1269049724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose none of this is related to Computer Science? Maybe I should stick with this college and Minor in math < 1269049729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact so often it would even make sense to have a separate name for such a function < 1269049739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that's not true, just my impression < 1269049778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need to know is learning things is related to knowing things is related to computer science < 1269049813 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really have to go to sleep -> < 1269049816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night < 1269049856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to forget about everything and play a game
< 1269049949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i calculate the determinant to be -7, thus odd, thus everything is solvable < 1269050251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269050601 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... time to get hardcore: < 1269050643 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know of implementations of (P)RNGs in brainfuck? < 1269050697 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would i be better off plugging /dev/random into stdin? < 1269050737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a langtons ant based thing but it gives the same result every run < 1269050739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1269050742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no source of entropy in bf < 1269050752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can use e.g. user input to seed it multiple times < 1269050758 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for input < 1269050851 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I'm trying to prove this lights out thing by brute force < 1269050857 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know how long it will take < 1269050931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a PRNG on the esolang wiki's algorithms page. < 1269050960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But obviously you're going to find a decent source of entropy to make it even vaguely useful. < 1269050978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suggest "Please pound on the keyboard") < 1269051043 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah... all my decent ideas for entropy kill the use of stdin < 1269051106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. There aren't any other sources of input at all. < 1269051109 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random numbers in brainfuck shouldn't be hard < 1269051113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: cat your entropy source and input together? < 1269051117 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's been done < 1269051130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Brainfuck has only one non-deterministic feature. "," < 1269051142 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq of course I meant pseudorandom :( < 1269051163 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I'm already through 341 of 512 cases! < 1269051190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wth you're not just doing the 9 pieces? < 1269051196 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan just 9 < 1269051212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my algorithm doesnt take into account any symmetries < 1269051225 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing a formal proof by brute force < 1269051230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ein coq < 1269051247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i mean, you're not just checking if you can get each single piece toggled? < 1269051312 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iim trying to prove < 1269051312 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem complete : forall a b c d e f g h i, moves (a::b::c::d::e::f::g::h::i::nil) win. < 1269051320 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says that for every starting board you can solve it < 1269051328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using a finite number of moves < 1269051345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1269051346 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I could play each board and that would prove it, but I wrote a thingy that plays it for me instead < 1269051351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really really stupid ;D < 1269051364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now prove it for an m*n board ;D < 1269051366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even have to show that moves are comutative or doubled up cancel out < 1269051367 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or symmetries < 1269051479 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah... :-/ < 1269051509 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what are your assumptions? < 1269051514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none < 1269051532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just axiomatized what moves are valid (all 9 of them) < 1269051541 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that a move flips 5 cells in a + pattern, doesn't wrap around < 1269051544 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a data type < 1269051545 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which board size? < 1269051548 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x3 < 1269051552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's taken over 10 mins :D < 1269051554 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269051567 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269051577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is on case 210/512
< 1269051586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I took ONE symmetry into account it would be done now < 1269051592 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269051596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there'sa lot more than one < 1269051612 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :counting symmetries, there are: < 1269051618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I proved it using a clever method that doesn't involve search..... I wonder if I would still be doing it :P < 1269051619 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 boards with 1 cell < 1269051652 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 boards with 2 cells < 1269051671 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enumerate all 3 and 4 cell positions, invert for 5-8 < 1269051675 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then 0 and 9 are 1 < 1269051679 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and solve those < 1269051706 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1269051712 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make redo this tommorw, and record it < 1269051723 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my 7 for 2 lights are: 12 13 15 16 19 25 26) < 1269051727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can time the porgramming time vs the pproof checking timem for all these different approaches < 1269051765 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language are you using to check them in? < 1269051789 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co < 1269051790 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1269051796 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269051805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX? < 1269051807 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one i need to look up? < 1269051846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1269051856 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :># < 1269051857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 4*4 _isn't_ all solvable < 1269051858 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269051870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(says my determinant check) < 1269051870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im glad I'm not doing 4x4 :P < 1269051877 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you sure? < 1269051883 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you use determinant for this lights out thing? < 1269051888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: determinant of the matrix is 0 < 1269051897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269051909 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thought someone said it was -7? < 1269051909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you didn't see all the discussion above? < 1269051919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that was me, and for 3*3 < 1269051937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269051940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the 0 was for 4*4 < 1269051945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3*4 is -9, so also all solvable, but 4*4 is 0, so not < 1269051971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's better to randomize than to Simulate random clicks < 1269051989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that would depend on how hard you want to make it... < 1269051997 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1269052010 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1269052101 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I don't understand that idea with the matrix at all < 1269052102 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok. yeah... googling seems to confirm what you're saying... < 1269052115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's M? (the rules of the game, but encoded how?) < 1269052124 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random unsolvable 4x4 board: .XXX/...X/.XXX/.... < 1269052135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main> lightsout 3 3 < 1269052135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1,1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0],[1,1,1,0,1,0,0,0,0],[0,1,1,0,0,1,0,0,0],[1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0],[0,1,0,1,1,1,0,1,0],[0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1],[0,0,0,1,0,0,1,1,0],[0,0,0,0,1,0,1,1,1],[0,0,0,0,0,1,0,1,1]] :: [[Integer]] < 1269052161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's the matrix for 3*3 < 1269052181 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 2x3 should give you 0 as well < 1269052189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :131/512! < 1269052215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: yeah it does. interesting that those determinants are _exactly_ 0, and not just even. < 1269052223 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh I have a data type like this but it's not a matrix < 1269052235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! I see what you do, that's really neat! < 1269052243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should program this too < 1269052244 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you get the significance of the number if it's non-zero? < 1269052244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: this is just a haskell list of lists, actually. < 1269052253 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you think there isn't one < 1269052253 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan well I am thinking of it as a matrix < 1269052260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a determinant program from way before which used lists of lists < 1269052278 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my computer is really REALLY struggling with a particular lights out configuration < 1269052278 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: if you can work out the determinant of a 3x3 in your head, i have the perfect game for you < 1269052307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has another puzzle that needs math analysis
< 1269052309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: this is actually a 9*9 _matrix_ for the 3*3 game, so no :D < 1269052310 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not today though < 1269052323 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a 3x3 matrix, not a 3x3 board < 1269052331 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: feel free to try us < 1269052342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: ouch. well _maybe_ i could do it. < 1269052352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean i feel like it... < 1269052367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'd want to use minors < 1269052373 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/402843/rules-non-degenerate-or-not-quite-kramers-rule < 1269052409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors of 3*3 are just cross products anyhow (also discussed above) < 1269052418 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors? < 1269052462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, instead of asking for math help, there's probably enough analysis stuff posted somewhere. I just need to know the name < 1269052472 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: describe it < 1269052473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors of matrices, a tool for evaluating the determinant < 1269052487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not very useful for big ones iirc < 1269052518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are two containers of water, a larger one [A], and a smaller one [B]. You can fill a container completely with water, transfer water from one to the other [the transfer stops when the repicient is full or the sender is empty], and drain a container < 1269052522 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if i get what you're saying... then yes, probably only useful for 3x3 < 1269052532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a red line on container A. the goal is to get the water level of A to match the line < 1269052534 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: and aiming for a target? < 1269052535 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269052550 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the puzzle genus < 1269052588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: the determinant being even but non-zero doesn't have any significance for lights out, but you could maybe create a similar game based on addition with a different modulus than 2, where it would be. < 1269052591 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The practical problem I have is this: If I'm given the size of A and B, can I move the line and be able to make a puzzle such that a solution exists? < 1269052671 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you click the link i gave? < 1269052702 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: reason i asked about the significance of it is that... i think that 7 presses the is the max needed for 3x3 and 9 for 3x4 < 1269052726 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which (and i might be very wrong here) i think means that 5x5 will give -23 < 1269052784 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes
< 1269052792 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: thinking < 1269052827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION appends an "and if so, how"
< 1269052835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: doing now < 1269052859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well obviously you can put the red line in the place corresponding to the volume of B < 1269052868 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: assuming that the water supply is infinite, that A > B, that A > target, and that everything is integers? < 1269052904 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 52 cases left!!
< 1269052937 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the obvious are nB and A-nB < 1269052945 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then look at what's left < 1269052954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: um no 3*3 can require 9 presses < 1269052977 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but don't bother with the latter half if A % B == 0) < 1269052981 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm... ok < 1269053032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: because all configurations can be solved, _every_ push subset of the 9 must be different. so if you push all 9, there is no way to get it back without pushing them all again. < 1269053057 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure whether everything is integers < 1269053071 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you assume it, it's a lot easier < 1269053074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I don't think it's a safe assumption < 1269053076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: golden ratio might be interesting :D < 1269053092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me show you a picture < 1269053144 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/3CenQ.jpg The only thing I can easily change is the red line < 1269053145 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok... doesn't all 9 invert all 9? < 1269053150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: determinant for 5*5 is 0, actually. (so not all solvable) < 1269053160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: nope < 1269053173 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: weird... < 1269053181 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: where is this? < 1269053184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it toggles a diagonal cross < 1269053226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, it's supposed to be confidential, but I don't care. I'm under no contract. < 1269053232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Active Worlds < 1269053250 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you're under NDA, be careful... < 1269053256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are the containers empty at the start? < 1269053260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1269053279 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i doubt that it's properly floats... might be large intergers, though < 1269053311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't even sure how to measure them precisely
< 1269053329 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you willing to be unsceientific? < 1269053345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean with measuring, I think I have to be < 1269053351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: it's not NDA Sgeo just likes to spend time in projects where kids pretend they're professional < 1269053365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "fire" people and make "design plans" and really they're just making some random stuff in virtual reality without pay < 1269053372 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold a ruler up to the screen, etc < 1269053407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only kid in this project is the other programmer < 1269053477 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay proof complete!!! < 1269053491 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah you really can get every configureation < 1269053563 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/878074 < 1269053565 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269053569 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most stupid way I could think of at the time < 1269053600 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I move the line to A-B? < 1269053642 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: easiest way, yeah... < 1269053643 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: < 1269053664 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all numbers are integers, there's no guarantee that it's solvable for all line positions < 1269053714 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A and B aren't coprime, then the target has to be a multiple of hcf(A,B) < 1269053768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really needs a way to repay pineapple, oklopol, and oerjan. Thank you SO MUCH
< 1269053795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm taking and not giving < 1269053802 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fax < 1269053803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And alise < 1269053825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, what language is that? < 1269053848 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1269053870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did this because it's ridiculous to do this < 1269053882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wanted to do a huge proof by computation < 1269053902 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it was a contrived one < 1269053945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[In case anybody's interested, some game music I'm writing per request: http://codu.org/tmp/gm1wipp3.ogg ] < 1269053976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269053991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: (0,0)(A,0)(0,B)(A-B,B)(A,B)(B,0)(A-B,0)(B,B) are the only configurations i can get without knowing more about the relative size of A and B < 1269054011 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the second number supposed to be? < 1269054024 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269054025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(contents of A, contents of B) < 1269054044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with A and B being their max volume < 1269054149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last two are the only ones that might give more options by doing a transfer < 1269054164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1269054199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what they give depend on whether they fill up or empty first < 1269054247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0,A-B) or (A-2B,B) vs. (2B,0) or (A,2B-A) < 1269054260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*depends < 1269054285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm interested in the configuration of the ring. I think at win, the water level of B is irrelevant < 1269054302 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: tap to A; while(A isn't empty) {A to B; if (B is full) B to floor; else tap to A;} < 1269054332 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will, if A and B are co-prime, eventually pass through all amounts possible in A < 1269054339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i need both to know what i can get _from_ there though < 1269054356 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ^ might be helpful < 1269054369 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that will cycle through all possible values of B as well < 1269054376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an easy way of measuring both atm < 1269054388 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on, actually < 1269054393 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that psuedocode any help? < 1269054394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: co-prime is irrelevant < 1269054415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, when the puzzle is set up, I know how [inefficiently] to solve it < 1269054422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just factoring out the common factor < 1269054428 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: only slightly... if they aren't, then there's less possible levels that can be hit < 1269054453 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that;s also probably the most efficient way... < 1269054467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but we can probably assume the sizes are reals or rationals < 1269054471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what oerjan meant < 1269054475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you're talking about < 1269054477 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or backwards, which is filling B and pouring as much into A each time < 1269054478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: i suppose by "all amounts possible" you mean "all integer amounts between 0 and A"? < 1269054490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the original game was around, I just kept in mind to "preserve information" < 1269054526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean that a gameboard is divided into 11 segments < 1269054535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think A = (3/2) B < 1269054540 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes... although if they're not integers, then eventually you will either hit all possible things or never end... < 1269054545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess just that, and i should read the rest of the rules to find out moer < 1269054546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*more < 1269054558 0 :augur_!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269054571 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what does it mean that a gameboard is divided into 11 segments - ? < 1269054587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I just thought of an exact way to measure it *facepalm* < 1269054588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: oh wait i think i see a clue there - you always tap _into_ A but _out of_ B < 1269054611 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: essentially: yes... or the other way around < 1269054615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269054644 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1269054652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the total amount is always between 0 and A+B < 1269054678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go collect the exact numbers < 1269054755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the matrix game < 1269054775 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the one i linked to? < 1269054784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who can't calculate a 3x3 matrix determinant, you have to be able to remember like 5 numbers < 1269054799 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually... less i think < 1269054802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i'm not saying i can do it fast enough to play the game < 1269054810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was a completely random number < 1269054829 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have it for the opening position: you only need to look at the (broken) diagonals of the target cell < 1269054835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too tired to even want to think about trying to find the correct number < 1269054855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right of course < 1269054865 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad;D < 1269054895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what it really does is x=A; while (x) {if (x>=b) x-=b; else x+=a;} < 1269054902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: 6 < 1269054904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B: 4 < 1269054914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night again < 1269054915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*x=a; < 1269054917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night oklopol < 1269054917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad;D? < 1269054918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1269054934 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you pulled those numbers from the code? < 1269054966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, I moved an object to the bottom and top of each cylinder, and measured its location < 1269054982 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suggest you do an svn blame (or equivalent), then yell at whoever chose those numbers < 1269054993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, why? < 1269054999 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6/4 = 3/2, right? < 1269055002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is 3/2 bad? < 1269055003 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269055020 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1269055029 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they've tried to implement something that they don't fully understand < 1269055061 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by making a puzzle that has high marmite factor between trivial and frustrating < 1269055062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't understand it enough to be able to give instructions < 1269055130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define marmite factor < 1269055141 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: never seen the tv ads? < 1269055147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it it's difficult to solve? < 1269055157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't watch tv, _and_ i'm norwegian < 1269055161 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"marmite - you either love it or you hate it" - there's nothing in between < 1269055163 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1269055207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do have a vague understanding of what marmite is, though < 1269055215 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to some it's difficult, some it's annoyingly easy? < 1269055224 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i mean that it's either very trivial or very frustrating... and if the player can't work out that they should aim for A-B to make it trivial, then they will be very frustrated by it < 1269055249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't I program it and see if it frustrates me < 1269055276 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if i choose the numbers :-) < 1269055309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting the person who created this to change it is probably ah.. somewhat difficult < 1269055331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269055354 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then ask them a direct question: "what are you trying to acheive by including this puzzle? what is the point that you're trying to make?" < 1269055356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now understands why that algorithm cycles through all possible amounts
< 1269055375 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269055385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, the puzzle is there because it was in the original game, but getting the numbers from the original is nigh-impossible now < 1269055395 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original? < 1269055402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe numbers are what they are because no one had a clear understanding of what they should be < 1269055425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation < 1269055501 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried googling for spoilers, then calculating the numbers from that? < 1269055511 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original equiv puzzle: http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Image:Blue_crystal.PNG < 1269055566 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me implement this, and if it really is that bad, I can convince someone to change the numbers < 1269055584 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i take it that no-one else have even considered to measure them? < 1269055593 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct < 1269055607 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We wouldn't know how, I thinkl < 1269055623 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269055633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, besides measuring pixels in a screenshot < 1269055648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you could use pineapple's algorithm < 1269055673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically see how long it takes until you cycle to all 0 < 1269055678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought pineapple was giving a solution for the puzzle, not how to generate.. OH < 1269055710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am pretty sure you can deduce the ratio of A to B from the progression < 1269055712 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269055715 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taht works, yes < 1269055728 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original isn't playable anymore < 1269055730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although we can visit < 1269055731 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way is measure with pixels and see what numbers you get < 1269055733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you manage to avoid hitting the red line < 1269055745 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you do hit the red line < 1269055749 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go the other way around < 1269055764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269055770 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where did pineapple put his algorithm < 1269055785 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pixels: a=227, b=118, target=76 < 1269055789 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: /last tap < 1269055801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: tap to A; while(A isn't empty) {A to B; if (B is full) B to floor; else tap to A;} < 1269055832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that causes the total amount to be changed by -B (mod A) at each step < 1269055834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does tap mean? go to top? < 1269055847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269055849 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tap to A means fill A from the tap < 1269055860 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all the way to the top) < 1269055862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does this by hand
< 1269055873 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B to floor means empty B < 1269055913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you count how many times you fill A, and how many times you empty B, until you cycle. then the ratio of times = ratio of volumes < 1269055942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I just hit an infini.. um < 1269055951 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this isn't how to determine how easy it is? < 1269055963 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I hit the solution a bit too soon < 1269055967 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my code is written based on C < 1269055970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how to determine all relevant information < 1269055987 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(relevent for getting the if statement handled correctly) < 1269055990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 6:4, tapping A, A->B is done < 1269056013 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo:move the red line < 1269056031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only positions A reaches are 0, 2, and 6 < 1269056032 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of the way if you can < 1269056043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I'm doing something wrong < 1269056049 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah... sounds like you are < 1269056050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you _know_ it's 6:4 you don't need to measure do you < 1269056074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, those are the measurements for the NEW stuff. I still don't know what the original was, but I think it was tougher than this < 1269056096 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i'm almost certain it is, based on the screenshot < 1269056098 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hang on < 1269056119 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A can never reach anything other than 0, 2, and 6? < 1269056124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pineapple's algorithm shows that you can choose _any_ integer volumes you want < 1269056142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it should be able to reach 4 < 1269056158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1269056169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, that's even easier < 1269056219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the spots you can hit are the multiples of the greatest common factor of 6 and 4 (i.e. 2) < 1269056238 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269056244 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nearest (smallest) interger solution for the original image, based om measurements: A=25, B=13, t=4 < 1269056273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269056277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, remember, the camera was kind of at an angle < 1269056280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t? < 1269056287 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :target < 1269056293 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269056297 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not right, lol < 1269056300 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t=8 < 1269056318 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... < 1269056322 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck, hang on < 1269056367 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... < 1269056370 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ain't right... < 1269056376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were A=24, B=12 then things would be a bit awkward :D < 1269056380 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269056386 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1269056388 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm getting t of 8,37 < 1269056417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a more straight-on picture would be appreciated? < 1269056427 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, very < 1269056441 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original... did the red line move? i'm assuming not < 1269056461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did not < 1269056464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I remember < 1269056472 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a Brainfuck interpreter that just takes input from stdin, and can be used as a shell interpreter eg. < 1269056472 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/usr/local/bin/BRAINFUCK < 1269056481 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1269056519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I try to make it so that the bottom edge of each cylinder is head-on? < 1269056523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: almost any interpreter should be able to do that, since all those #! characters are comment characters in BF < 1269056527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: Several. < 1269056532 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1269056548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest Egobfi? < 1269056553 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as large as you can get it < 1269056579 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1269056671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Sn4ZE.png < 1269056775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: AW looks positively... 90s. < 1269056836 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B 157, A 283, t 93-96 (likely somewhere in the middle) < 1269056872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is < 1269056882 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A/B gives 1.802547771 < 1269056892 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suggests 9/5 < 1269056919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably better to use 9/5 than the exact original measurements < 1269056923 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which puts t at 3 < 1269056938 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's your answer, honey < 1269056944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tyvm < 1269056945 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's highly unscientific < 1269056952 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... that's often the best way < 1269056955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what? Will it be playable? < 1269056999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: all integers are playable, in principle ;D < 1269057007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it not be too trivial? < 1269057040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1269057040 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be... relatively easy < 1269057055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as it's not as trivial as 3/2 was < 1269057103 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when B is emptued for the 3rd time, A has 3 in it < 1269057127 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not trivial... and probably not that frustrating < 1269057134 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1269057140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, how can I repay you? < 1269057141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5*2 == 1 (mod 9) < 1269057245 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: can't think of anything < 1269058189 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269059166 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269062110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269064148 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269064160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eyo < 1269064616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much for hoping that my code would be perfect first time < 1269066428 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269066658 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269069690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269071898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269071999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269072000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269073796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: upgrade time < 1269075233 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269075618 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269077584 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269077625 0 :kev_!~kev@59.172.14.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269077654 0 :kev_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269077771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269077850 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269078168 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269079584 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269080663 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269081412 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269081425 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just caused panic < 1269081733 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269083473 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269083740 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269084305 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269084989 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269085510 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-202.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269085520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maximal antipotential. < 1269085537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:18:59 wow, the Poincaré conjecture has been proved < 1269085543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::slowpoke: < 1269085572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy who solved it is awesome he denied a prize for it because he didn't think the board were qualified to assess his work < 1269085601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"According to a 2006 interview, Perelman is currently jobless, living with his mother in Saint Petersburg." < 1269085607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess he really doesn't like money < 1269085795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to be less obtuse, the Poincare conjecture was proved 2002-2003 < 1269085854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the actual millennium prize about it seems to have been awarded to him two days ago, making this a bit topical. One has to wonder whether they bothered to ask him if he wants it, though. < 1269085937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On 18 March, 2010, Perelman was awarded a Millennium Prize for solving the problem.[14] He had previously stated that "I'm not going to decide whether to accept the prize until it is offered."[3] < 1269085941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: I think he did accept. < 1269085984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.claymath.org/poincare/index.html < 1269085992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they misromanised his name :))) < 1269086031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; New Scientists says "A million-dollar prize for solving one of toughest problems in mathematics has been awarded to a Russian mathematician, but the real puzzle is whether he'll accept it." < 1269086042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah; okay. < 1269086044 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The president of CMI, James Carlson, is waiting to see if Perelman will do the same for the Millennium prize. "It may be a while before he makes his decision," he says." < 1269086045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we will see. < 1269086069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There are different romanizations, and that, AFAIK, is valid. < 1269086069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine he will probably decline; why Millennium but not Fields? < 1269086083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, I know :P < 1269086094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grigori is a nicer romanisation though < 1269086101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, billions and billions of dollars! < 1269086114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe his mother goes all "you'll take that money or I'll kick you out". < 1269086117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the -iy is closer to the actual pronunciation < 1269086140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess nobody English will pronounce it any differently whether it's -i, -y, or -iy < 1269086159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Billions and billions: 1 million < 1269086190 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, those were small billions. < 1269086198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure anyone who declines the Fields medal is one fucking morally certain man < 1269086225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the Fields medal only awards $15,000USD as of 2006 < 1269086293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:46:15 Sgeo: AW looks positively... 90s. < 1269086293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why he likes it < 1269086311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIND OF FURY! POWER OF BLOOD! HEALING! LIGHT! BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM--- < 1269086314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://i.imgur.com/Sn4ZE.png) < 1269086319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I forgot MAGIC SHIELD! < 1269086416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one that ends up with -i sounds a bit non-information-preserving; I don't know how that domanization would differentiate between Григорий and Григори; google seems to suggest that some people use the latter as a name too. < 1269086427 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dom/rom/ < 1269086433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1269086435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOMINATION. < 1269086436 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if i had no use for a million, i'd take it just so others don't get it < 1269086464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might decline some prestigous prize because I'll be more famous if I do that :) < 1269086471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would totally have a use for a million, i've always wanted to give some homeless guy 100000 < 1269086494 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Then he'll spend it all on booze and die, you man-slaughtererer. < 1269086513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDD < 1269086515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite frankly I would enjoy money. < 1269086525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking, I know. < 1269086532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would probably choose one whose brain isn't completely melted yet < 1269086549 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i would probably buy a house too < 1269086555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few books < 1269086588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably give half of the rest to people i know and half in a bank of smth < 1269086590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My wife asked me what I'd do with 50 million euros (she'd buy some 14-million manor somewhere, I forget just where); the first thing I could think of was "hmm, maybe I'll buy dessert with lunch at work". (That costs 0.95 eur extra.) < 1269086615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like books < 1269086621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dessert not so much < 1269086686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd prolly just hire a buncha expensive people to manage it for me and turn it into more money (they can have some so they don't run away) < 1269086693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I could gain money without bound, and thus I could completely ignore money as it is, over time, infinite < 1269086703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that, capitalism < 1269086705 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269086741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything's so expensive nowadays since I no longer get any student discounts; apparently graduate students aren't quite as good as real students. So the lunch is now 5.40 eur as opposed to 2.55 or so. < 1269086759 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269086807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd also get loads of people to build my perfect house, buying one is so boring < 1269086808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't work at uni? i mean if you get a salary, 5,40 is nothing < 1269086828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want like... i don't know, cool technology. in my walls < 1269086871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's the principle of it! Besides, the change in lunch price pretty much ate the wage-raise I got by graduating. (It bumps the "difficulty level" pay-scale column index by one automatically.) < 1269086891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the change in bus ticket price did the rest.) < 1269087294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I dislike geometric proofs < 1269087298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elements is so beautiful < 1269087302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first constructivist work, I wonder? < 1269087330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also using geometry as the foundation of all mathematics amuses me... < 1269087365 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1269087422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1269087437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean his geometry basically embeds the real numbers... < 1269087532 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1269087546 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to scotland! < 1269087699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you do geometry on rationals? < 1269087804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually seen an axiomatization of geometry, but i hear there were some really simple things that hadn't been realized to not be derivable from the axioms but were used as if they were, as late as late 1900's < 1269087820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's such a hard thing to axiomatize, given we have such strong intuitions about it < 1269087832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like points exist between two points < 1269087935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a geometry course at uni, but apparently it skips some of the boring details < 1269088027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably have to be pretty boring, because the lecturer said they were, and he was all hyper over cyclic modules "and we get this particularly fascinating fellow" he loves to personify things "if we just have one generator" < 1269088127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Matrix Computations lecturer refers to matrices and vectors as people too, usually with the word "guy"; "and this guy here ... and we get this guy ..." and so on. < 1269088258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He also keeps laughing all the time, without any explicit jokes. < 1269088269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's a sum where i goes from 1 to n, the same lecturer often says "ja i kipittää 1:stä n:ään" < 1269088273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i always find hilarious < 1269088304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the funny thing is kipittää is a funny word < 1269088318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of my friends collected the best sayings of maths lecturers in notebooks; unfortunately I don't have any handy. < 1269088364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These matrices can be... really big *ehehe*." It's very amusing to listen, though. < 1269088499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The course seems to currently be in a transition to the interesting part; the part where we no longer have a matrix A as a pile of numbers, but instead just a linear operator A that you can apply to a vector, because the matrix itself would be too large to store in memory. Now it's going to be all Krylov subspaces and whatnot. < 1269088525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are those < 1269088535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please define them in guy terms < 1269088557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many courses are you on usually? < 1269088561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a given time < 1269088581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K_r(A, b) = span(b, Ab, A^2b, ..., A^(r-1)b), nothing more complicated than that. < 1269088611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have around 4-5 now. It's only something like 60 course credits for the licensiate/doctoral degree, after all. < 1269088638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this A dude here makes all sortsa copies of itself and then all those copies have buttsex with b at the same time and a vector space is spanned < 1269088667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Except you have to worry about the numerical stability of the buttsex. < 1269088673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269088777 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats < 1269088779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that mean < 1269088781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' < 1269088803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4-5 is considered a lot among turkuans < 1269088828 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we are a crappier uni < 1269088863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's considered "a lot" here, but it's not an especially tiny amount either, I Guess. < 1269088879 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269088885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually one of the professors told me people in turku are better at math usually, which he'd probably be regretting if he knew i was gonna tell it to everyone < 1269088918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back at the beginning of the course, when he was trying to motivate the course by talking about big matrices, he was all about "the Google matrix", which is a NxN matrix where N is the size of the Internet. < 1269088943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is somehow related to the fact that you get PageRank values as eigenvalues of some sort of adjacency matrix of the Internet. < 1269088960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the universe matrix containing for each point the points at most one meter from it?!? < 1269088986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might've been actually some physics problem, though maybe not quite like that. < 1269088996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can give out search results by multiplying with the matrix, then it would be slightly more interesting < 1269089024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to go see ya < 1269089031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here, actually; boo-ya. < 1269089413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269089525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : turns out linear functions are invertible (they have normal function inverses) iff their determinant is nonzero <-- makes perfect sense considering that is true for matrices. < 1269089580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I suppose none of this is related to Computer Science? Maybe I should stick with this college and Minor in math <-- well, matrices at least are used a lot in programming. Especially 3D iirc. < 1269089645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CS != programming < 1269089653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes < 1269089662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, however programming is a part of CS < 1269089719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269089723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming isn't even applied CS < 1269089744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming, aka software engineering, is an enirely separate field that happens to use some ideas from CS < 1269089750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like physics uses mathematics... < 1269089821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, however, I'm pretty sure (basic) programming is taught as part of CS courses. At least for all universities I checked. < 1269089835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which is what I was talking about < 1269089880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a CS course involves Java, C, Python - it's probably crap. < 1269089894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Python can go okay, but only if it's used in an abstract way. < 1269089896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think C and lisp were the most common ones < 1269089908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pyhton at third place I think < 1269089909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, Java. < 1269089913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java was very rare < 1269089914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Almost all (mathematical term!) CS courses suck.) < 1269089916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for true CS < 1269089932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I'm not sure I'd call any existing CS curriculum good. < 1269089939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIT sorta ruined theirs by abandoning SICP and doing robots in Python instead. < 1269089945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269089987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The xkcd effect, may I call it. < 1269090005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1269090009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Default search engine has been changed to Yahoo!" --Ubuntu.com < 1269090014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I smell money. < 1269090016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, joke? < 1269090037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: xkcd glorifies "fun hacking!" and "zomg cool robots!" and "python is SO EASY!" < 1269090048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This beta sports full removal of HAL from the boot process, making Ubuntu faster to boot and faster to resume from suspend." < 1269090048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's good. < 1269090053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well sure, python *is* easy < 1269090058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We now feature built-in integration with Twitter, identi.ca, Facebook, and other social networks with the MeMenu in the panel, which is built upon the Gwibber project, which has a completely new, more reliable backend built on top of desktopcouch. Gwibber now also supports a multi-column view for monitoring multiple feeds simultaneously." < 1269090059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck me. < 1269090068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MeMenu? < 1269090071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1269090072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Millions of songs are available for purchase from your Ubuntu desktop, integrated with the Rhythmbox Music Player and using Ubuntu One cloud storage for backup and easy sync. Watch http://one.ubuntu.com/blog for the public beta launch." < 1269090073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vomit. < 1269090082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise a humdrum improvement release. < 1269090083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269090097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously: Yahoo, social crap by default, integrated music purchasing? < 1269090097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eat a dick. < 1269090102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think jaunty might have been the last "good" release < 1269090111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe karmic < 1269090113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mind 9.10. < 1269090127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Karmic's the latest release. :P < 1269090136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well this new one sounds horrible < 1269090149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only quoted the horrid bits. Obviously. < 1269090152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Paul also noted that the most controversial aspect of the new design amongst users has been the placement of the window control buttons on the left instead of the right side of the windows" < 1269090155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right < 1269090156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copying OS X, are we? < 1269090170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269090179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use standard theme anyway < 1269090196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what? I think I'll just stick with Windows 7 for now. < 1269090248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, arch linux isn't too bad < 1269090299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, on the plus sides it doesn't integrate music stores, nor social crap by default, and default search engine is whatever uses as upstream default < 1269090320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but on a laptop? < 1269090323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBA < 1269090327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, good point < 1269090348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly I should just instantly code ehirdOS < 1269090358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1269090365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ACPI is horrible I'm told < 1269090372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you really need that for laptops :( < 1269090398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to name his first proof system something along the lines of provenance
< 1269090400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nance < 1269090427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll have two components, the proof checker (basically a typechecker for some dependently-typed total lambda calculus) and the proof compiler (from a form you'd actually want to write; with niceties such as definitions) < 1269090433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they need names < 1269090451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also perhaps a third component, that extracts computational (non-proof) content from a proof and compiles that to some functional language < 1269090461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :profchk and profc < 1269090465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for checker and compiler < 1269090468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the proof checker should be prove, and the compiler nance, if I'm going by provenance < 1269090471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's way boring. < 1269090475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes < 1269090490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus typoed < 1269090492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should have: < 1269090495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove -- checker < 1269090499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance -- compiler < 1269090499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof* for booth < 1269090512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :volit -- program extractor < 1269090518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why volit? < 1269090520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system as a whole being Provenance and Volition. < 1269090534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because computation is like some sort of volition. < 1269090535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what volition means
< 1269090540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're going forwards to do some sort of goal. Of such. < 1269090551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that prove is a bit of a vague name for a proof checker. < 1269090562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google result is Volition® as the third < 1269090565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just FYI < 1269090578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1269090586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, registered trademark < 1269090594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bloody English word < 1269090598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't trademark it < 1269090602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not like that < 1269090605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it seems to have been done :/ < 1269090605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only in some very specific field < 1269090613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at trademark law :P < 1269090619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1269090646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should clearly write PROVE first. < 1269090650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In, eh, let's say Haskell. < 1269090666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What calculus? Perhaps the calculus of inductive constructions. < 1269090685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not in coq or agda? < 1269090742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I don't really know enough of Coq or Agda to do those. If I was doing it so I could prove the checker correct, then Agda would be the wrong choice; it's a very experimental, exporatory language and false has been proven in it many many times. < 1269090742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq I know even less than Agda. < 1269090760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, volit will probably spew out (horrific) Haskell. < 1269090777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It annoys me that prove has to know about sets, and not just propositions. < 1269090816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what exactly will volit do? < 1269090881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, nance is in many ways like a programming language. You have data types, in Type, and you have a subset of Type named Prop which contains propositional statements. < 1269090893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269090895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You prove a Prop by writing (terminating) code that constructs a value of the given Prop. < 1269090912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The values of Props are irrelevant - they are indistinguishable; for any x,y:P where P:Prop, x=y < 1269090917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the values of Sets are not < 1269090925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds like you are an constructivist ;O < 1269090927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P* < 1269090932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't say. < 1269090946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Through the Curry-Howard lens, we can eliminate proofs (Prop values), as they carry exactly 0 bits of information. < 1269090964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have lambdas, as ways of proving implication and also defining functions on sets. < 1269090968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... we have a total programming language. < 1269090974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269090990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sprinkle on some mechanism for IO, and you have both a programming language with dependent types and consequently proving, and a proof assistant. < 1269091007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1269091021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where does volit fit in < 1269091022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're doing proofs, you use nance and it feeds its result to prove for you; if you're programming, you use nance and it feeds its result to volit (and then, presumably, to ghc) for you. < 1269091029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269091035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often the files you do both to will be the same. < 1269091047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269091051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why not allow non-constructive proofs btw? < 1269091051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, the typechecker just says "Yes" or "No" in so many words. < 1269091066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, because I don't believe that forall p, p \/ ~p, for one. < 1269091073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two, you can have that < 1269091082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classicalOr p q = ~(~p & ~q) < 1269091100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can even just take as a parameter the law of the excluded middle, thus having LEM -> whatever. < 1269091104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism contains classical logic < 1269091105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is ~ = not? < 1269091108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1269091148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's simple as that I'm a constructivist, and I also believe in the computationalness of proofs and the like - total Curry-Howard disciple - so, begone LEM. < 1269091156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you believe forall p, p \/ ~p ? < 1269091163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay LEM I guess < 1269091170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's law of the excluded middle. < 1269091182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Consider axioms like the Continuum Hypothesis (in the context of ZFC). < 1269091201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads up on that one
< 1269091201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can add the axiom CH to ZFC, and yield an (almost certainly) consistent system (if ZFC is consistent that is). < 1269091205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to. < 1269091207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an example. < 1269091208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also add the axiom ~CH to ZFC. < 1269091211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still consistent. < 1269091216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269091218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in plain ZFC without any frills: is CH true or false? < 1269091223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is that it's neither. < 1269091234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, undecidable? < 1269091234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also true for large ordinal axioms < 1269091239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*large cardinal < 1269091244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not undecidable. < 1269091247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1269091257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider Godel's theorem. < 1269091263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269091265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not quite the same. < 1269091288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay, I think I see what you mean < 1269091308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm the first to admit that this is way out of my expertise. < 1269091334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's simple enough: There are statements for which our formalisms do not have the mechanisms that we can apply to derive either a proof of p, or a proof of not-p. < 1269091345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that, where does the law of the excluded middle stand? < 1269091352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1269091363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either p or not p -- but it cannot be shown to be either. My opinion - shared with other constructivists - is that it is neither. < 1269091371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but non-constructive proofs are sexy :P < 1269091393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think proofs of ~~p are not very interesting. :P < 1269091401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269091404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mind you, I do believe that ~~p is very strong evidence for p. < 1269091415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't believe it entails it. < 1269091424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a two-valued boolean logic at least < 1269091436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, propositions aren't booleans. < 1269091458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever first made (x = y), (x > y) etc. booleans was a vile person. < 1269091460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers however *work* on boolean logic basically. < 1269091470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they work on electricity. < 1269091481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well sure, but at one level they do what I said mostly < 1269091524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the digital logic parts of them, which makes up a rather large and crucial portion of how they work < 1269091570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coming up with a model for inductive types is Hard. < 1269091570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are analogue computers, but from what I understood they are kind of rare < 1269091582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, nance will be where the type inferrence is. < 1269091589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1269091597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove will literally require an annotation for every single parameter and result. < 1269091601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I suspect the output it generates then might be rather large. < 1269091609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no variable names or anything: It takes in lambda calculus with De Bruijn indexes. < 1269091613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Plus type annotations). < 1269091616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay *very* large then < 1269091630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /that/ large. < 1269091648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, GHC basically stops one step short of lambda-calculus. < 1269091654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I can't really predict how much it will grow compared to input < 1269091676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much, really. You can't infer anything dependent anyway. < 1269091680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, almost anything. < 1269091689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So only trivial things will have their types inferred. < 1269091712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, I presume you somehow at the end can get out reasonable machine code, reasonable for an OS that is (which was your goal wasn't it?) < 1269091739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this is just my first foray into actually making one of these. < 1269091748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowhere near OS stage yet. < 1269091764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, out of interest: how will you handle the low level interaction with the architecture in your OS? Some parts must be OS specific, be it configuring memory mappings or whatever. < 1269091769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can those be proved? < 1269091776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/OS specific/hardware specific/ < 1269091781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine code generated will probably not be pretty; after all, 42 will be represented by 42 nested constructors and then a unit value. < 1269091804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pipe it into llvm or something and hope for the best? < 1269091813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC produces alright code anyway. < 1269091817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269091873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still, I find the problem of proving the bits that deal with poking hardware correct quite interesting. Such as setting up memory mappings for processes and dealing with DMA or whatever. < 1269091879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, they don't need to be proved. < 1269091885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1269091886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, the correctness of the code depends on the hardware being correct in the first place. < 1269091892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1269091900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just about to say that that might be an issue as well < 1269091915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't think FDIV ever happened again. < 1269091920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They formally verify chips nowadays. < 1269091930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc intel and amd both use correctness checkers for their CPUs nowdays, at least for the FPU. No one wants to see another FDIV bug < 1269091940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, damn you beat me to it :P < 1269091947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how induction <=> recursion. < 1269091976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I knew they were related, but are they actually equivalent? < 1269091981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269091994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful indeed < 1269092012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how to get from one to the other exactly, but yeah they are pretty similar when you think about it < 1269092014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat-induct : forall (P : Nat -> Prop), P 0 -> (forall (n:Nat), P n -> P (succ n)) -> forall (n:Nat), P n < 1269092023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now ignore Prop being propositions so irrelevant values just imagine it's any type < 1269092027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n:Nat? < 1269092030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then consider P x = Integer < 1269092035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: forall naturals n < 1269092035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that "n in N"? < 1269092037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have < 1269092038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269092062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer -> (forall (n:Nat), integer -> integer) -> forall (n:Nat), integer < 1269092064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall is the same as a function arrow < 1269092064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer -> (Nat -> integer -> intgeer) -> (Nat -> integer) < 1269092079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the first argument is the base case < 1269092091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second gets the current value to consider, and also the rest of the computation (lazily) < 1269092095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it combines the two with recursion < 1269092100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fold! < 1269092117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you can derive a function like this for /any/ inductive data type, mechanically < 1269092144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw do you reject proofs of existence by contradiction (that is, proving something must exist, because otherwise it would result in a contradiction, without giving any way to construct said thing) < 1269092144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram 2 does this < 1269092145 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269092184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Something must exist, otherwise contradiction = Not something must exist, implies contradiction = Not not something must exist = Not not P = ~~P < 1269092187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's using ~~P to prove P. No. I do not accept that. < 1269092192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092212 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269092220 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :building plan9port < 1269092233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think that means you end up rejecting some major parts of modern mathematics. < 1269092240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember which parts < 1269092250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm pretty sure I read about that somewhere < 1269092250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't < 1269092261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you reject uncomputable real numbers, but nobody cares about them < 1269092270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: consider that the four-colour theorem was proved with Coq < 1269092273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a constructivist system < 1269092279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very much practical < 1269092295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_theorem mentions "Such pure existence results are in any case ubiquitous in contemporary mathematics. For example, for a linear problem the set of solutions will be a vector space, and some a priori calculation of its dimension may be possible. In any case where the dimension is probably at least 1, an existence assertion has been made (that a non-zero solution < 1269092295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists.)". I don't have any clue what that means though really < 1269092319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, interesting thing: < 1269092322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P?Q)?P)?P < 1269092325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Pierce's law. < 1269092326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269092329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the ? there < 1269092330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P->Q)->P)->P < 1269092332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269092335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pierce's law. < 1269092336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But! < 1269092340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the type of call-with-current-continuation. < 1269092357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1269092360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The continuation is (P->Q), i.e. gimme something and I'll give you anything (it's just a dummy value computationally so you can put it anywhere) < 1269092375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you result in a P (because whatever you pass to the continuation must be able to stand for what would normally result, typewise) < 1269092376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it gives you a P, by constructing a continuation < 1269092377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT! < 1269092387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This doesn't hold in intuitionistic logic (and other similar constructivist ones) < 1269092392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/cc is always somewhat mind bending. < 1269092392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it implies the law of the excluded middle < 1269092398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, know that _|_ is the type with no elements, i.e. falsity < 1269092400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so no call/cc in your language? < 1269092403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that ~p is p -> _|_ < 1269092452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P->_|_)->P)->P < 1269092462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In particular, when Q is taken to be a false formula, the law says that if P must be true whenever it implies the false, then P is true. In this way Peirce's law implies the law of excluded middle." < 1269092467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically < 1269092469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have _|_ < 1269092471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can prove anything < 1269092475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if P is true whenever it implies the false < 1269092487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means that P is true < 1269092489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because P implies false < 1269092492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from false we can derive P < 1269092498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo, law of the excluded middle < 1269092518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so call/cc -> law of the excluded middle :D < 1269092526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no call/cc outside of something like a continuation monad < 1269092529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no biggie - haskell doesn't have it either < 1269092543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269092569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you know the y combinator? as in a fixed point combinator doesn't matter which one < 1269092571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : (a -> a) -> a < 1269092576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fix (1:) = [1,1,1,1,1,1,...] < 1269092583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. fix f = f (fix f) < 1269092587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1269092608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269092626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh please tell me you know that < 1269092650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just say yes :P < 1269092660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is familiar, but never really used lambda calculus. < 1269092665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in haskell too < 1269092666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix (1:) = 1 : fix (1:) = 1 : 1 : fix (1:) = ... < 1269092669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is composition? < 1269092686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) < 1269092705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) (fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1))) < 1269092705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah a quick check on wikipedia reminded me of what it was < 1269092710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I read about that before < 1269092711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ages ago < 1269092714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) ((\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) (fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)))) < 1269092715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269092718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus allowing recursion < 1269092720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyway < 1269092722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the type < 1269092722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269092725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : forall a, (a -> a) -> a < 1269092727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider it logically < 1269092731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> a) is a tautology < 1269092734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's saying < 1269092735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : forall a, a < 1269092738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WUT! < 1269092745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed using fix we can derive ANYTHING < 1269092747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : a -> a < 1269092747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, (a implies a) implies a? for all a? < 1269092751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269092751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix id : forall a, a < 1269092759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1269092762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for all p, p is true, not p is true, ... < 1269092767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix is inconsistency in a bag! < 1269092776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and this, kids, is why you don't allow general recursion < 1269092793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : a -> a <-- that seems sane to me though. id is a no-operation after all < 1269092804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, not if that is implies < 1269092810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1269092812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269092813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a implies a for all a < 1269092816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id is true < 1269092823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a -> a) -> a is not true < 1269092827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously a implies itself < 1269092833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 2 is prime, then 2 is prime < 1269092838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 2 is not prime, then 2 is not prime < 1269092838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269092844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: \x -> x < 1269092852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fix : (a -> a) -> a < 1269092856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but considering the truth table for -> something seems wrong if id: a->a < 1269092857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can ignore (a -> a) as it's already proved < 1269092860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fix : forall a, a < 1269092860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a is false < 1269092866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why < 1269092867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1269092871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> doesn't have a truth table < 1269092877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even classically A -> A holds... < 1269092880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an axiom < 1269092884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not the classical logic ->? < 1269092899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classical -> has a truth table < 1269092902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes < 1269092904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but A -> A is still always true < 1269092905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the one I meant < 1269092908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is < 1269092910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reduces to !(A&!A) < 1269092917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the law of non-contradiction < 1269092920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1269092922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a -> b, says basically nothing about b if a is false < 1269092924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, so < 1269092927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : somethingtrue -> a < 1269092929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is equivalent to < 1269092930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : a < 1269092935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: foo theproofofsomethingtrue < 1269092936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes < 1269092938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix is equivalent to < 1269092940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a < 1269092945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in _|_ for a < 1269092952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get a proof of false < 1269092954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1269092975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed < 1269092993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in reimann-hypothesis for a, and you get a proof of that too < 1269092999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in ~reimann-hypothesis, and its negation appears! < 1269093007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many THINGS we can achieve with trivialism! < 1269093030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269093099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file extension .na is free. not any more! < 1269093101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stolen for nance < 1269093122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually .ne looks nicer to me, so < 1269093205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, while I do like some of the points of total fp, I still quite like non-constructive proofs. what a dilemma this is :/ < 1269093257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you reject or accept proof by induction btw? < 1269093265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Induction is obviously true. < 1269093277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: Structural recursion. < 1269093281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, transfinite induction? < 1269093296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1269093299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provable < 1269093301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269093335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why haven't you asked me about the Axiom of Choice yet? < 1269093382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hah < 1269093407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's that funny < 1269093414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't prove it, that is why it is called axiom. But why are you so eager to be asked about it? < 1269093431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least you can't prove it from some sets of axioms) < 1269093496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also since you accept transfinite induction, doesn't that mean you must accept AoC? < 1269093523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for uncountable sets < 1269093554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or maybe I'm mixing this up) < 1269093695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are mixing it up < 1269093695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I only accept some of the Axiom of Choice: the part that is provable. < 1269093706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1269093706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269093714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intensional axiom of choice. But you know what? < 1269093717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't imply well-ordering. < 1269093728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Axiom of Choice without the weird shit. < 1269093728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets vs. types iirc or such? < 1269093731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's provable in type theory. < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+1) (modify c) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c')) < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : where pre c = stdout is open in conditions < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : modify c = c (I don't think writing to stdout should ever change conditions...) < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : post c = nothing, we require no postconditions here < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269093763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, forgot the result < 1269093806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+1) (modify c) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c')) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c') < 1269093806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1269093808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I forgot the actual string :D < 1269093880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't read that, and you know that < 1269093949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : String -> WorldSatisfying m c stdoutOpen -> (World (m+1) c -> WorldGreater n c' (m+1)) -> World n c < 1269093949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1269093956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just musing to myself < 1269093993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actual usage of this will look something like < 1269093994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269093995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO Unit < 1269093996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly < 1269094016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just condition magic so that it's actually impossible for the program to, e.g. write to a closed handle < 1269094029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the writing functions require the conditions of the world you give it to have that file handle to be open < 1269094046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the close function transforms the conditions in the new world the continuation gets so that the handle is closed there < 1269094055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269094087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it shouldn't be too hard to make it impossible to write to a closed handle in a "normal" language. (Yeah "normal" isn't really the right word, but...) < 1269094098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking at typechecking time here. < 1269094099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at runtime. < 1269094107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that is somewhat harder < 1269094112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AnMaster slowly creeps away, defeated.) < 1269094122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Slight misuse of the term somewhat there < 1269094123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for runtime, something like ref counting should work < 1269094198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, perhaps. but if you in a "normal" language would require proof that a file handle could not escape a given scope, and then could prove how it is used in said scope it would be possible before runtime there too. no? < 1269094222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that doesn't cover all possible situations < 1269094357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you require a proof in a normal language < 1269094362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't < 1269094378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Recursion must be easier than recursion. Otherwise recursive programs would never terminate." < 1269094381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"QED." < 1269094522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269094579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1269094600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269094654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269094661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO stdoutOpen id (const ?) Unit < 1269094661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's const T there < 1269094669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO stdoutOpen id (const T) Unit < 1269094669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094707 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269094731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO pre change post r -- the type of an IO interaction on a world satisfying pre, which does change to the world's conditions, and results in an r, as long as the world at the end of the hullabaloo satisfies post < 1269094733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I need to paramaterise over n... grr < 1269094745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather not though < 1269094756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: simplify my io system :p < 1269094826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIMPLIFY < 1269094829 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENHANCE < 1269094842 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zoom in on his pocket, what's in that letter? < 1269094845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes. do so < 1269094856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GENERALISE < 1269094857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO a = a < 1269094949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like data IO :: * -> * where Return :: a -> IO a ; (:>>=:) :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b ; PutChar :: ... < 1269094966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just do something like that, except with stronger specifications in the types < 1269095002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that breaks things when you add new IO actions < 1269095005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, you should be able to write < 1269095009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate foo : ... some IO action ... < 1269095013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have everything still work < 1269095099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> ((Sigma (w' : World m' (change c)). m' > m) -> r -> Sigma (w'' : World m'' c'). (m'' > m' /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269095111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't need to paramaterise on pre/change/post, that can just be part of the types of the actions < 1269095195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = ((Sigma (w : World m c). m > SOMETHING) -> r -> Sigma (w' : World m' c'). (m' > m /\ SOMETHING)) -> World m' c' < 1269095200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe? < 1269095230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never understood the 'realworld' stuff < 1269095237 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seemed inelegant to me < 1269095259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here World is a very abstract thing < 1269095283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World m c is a (thing) of sequence number m (we use this to ensure you can't use the same world twice, as you have to do it increasingly), with conditions c < 1269095285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conditions are things you can do like < 1269095288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isOpen stdout c < 1269095295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, in the conditions c, is the file handle stdout open? < 1269095302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also transform < 1269095304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :withClosed stdout c < 1269095321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, it's completely opaque < 1269095335 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ help super primes @_@ < 1269095336 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immediate need asap : c++ help super primes @_@ < 1269095406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess I need postulate data structures < 1269095422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate IOStruct : Sigma (IO : Set). isIO IO < 1269095433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Set < 1269095439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need to posulate World instead < 1269095459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate WorldStruct : Sigma (World : Nat -> Conditions -> Set). isWorld World < 1269095511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i mean your IO data structure just doesn't handle things like FFIs and the like < 1269095515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even added IO operations < 1269095532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does < 1269095533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: besides you need SOME sort of world-like structure, because you need to be able to do pre and post conditions < 1269095535 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the ... bit was for < 1269095552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's put pre & post conditions in bind < 1269095580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is bind's type? < 1269095628 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget about IO for a moment < 1269095633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works for any monad < 1269095633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1269095699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm waiting < 1269095730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind, it was wrong < 1269095763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269095767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with < 1269095768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = ((Sigma (w : World m c). m > SOMETHING) -> r -> Sigma (w' : World m' c'). (m' > m /\ SOMETHING)) -> World m' c' < 1269095771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that I can't say SOMETHING < 1269095772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269095778 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269096096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://pastie.org/878467.txt?key=babbgfpdokohtn3kjvzdnq < 1269096110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is obviously wrong in some major way because I can't figure out how it isn't wrong < 1269096152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I /think/ it's a totally pure, general, abstract constraint-based IO system < 1269096195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269096208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this project - write hello in nance - turns out to be much harder than I ever imagined < 1269096272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so how would /you/ do it :) < 1269096284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do IO < 1269096321 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do pure programming in a monad then write a 10 line C/Haskell thing to drive it < 1269096391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah the whole point of volit is to extract the program from the ... program < 1269096393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides < 1269096396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe io is very important < 1269096409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think being able to prove things about IOing programs is awesome < 1269096771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what was that method you suggested for doing inductive data types? < 1269096781 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1269096972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you said it yesterday < 1269096981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you axiomatise induction or something and then that gives you inductive types < 1269097145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish ais523 was here so I could ask him something. < 1269097202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: can you define coinductive data types with inductive ones? < 1269097258 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1269097277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1269097280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u suk < 1269097522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.prove && prove foo.prove && volit foo.ne -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess nance and volit have to share a library so they can process Nance code. < 1269097540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I could also have /another/ intermediate form: < 1269097604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.ncr && ncr2prove foo.ncr && prove foo.ncr && volit foo.ncr -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269097631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.ncr && ncr2prove foo.ncr -o foo.prv && prove foo.prv && volit foo.ncr -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ncr has enough information to distinguish things like Prop and Set easily, while prv is completely core. < 1269097881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then to trust a Nance proof foo.ne, you have to trust that nance compiles it correctly to foo.ncr, then that ncr2prove compiles foo.ncr correctly to foo.prv, then prove checks it correctly. < 1269097898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to: to trust a Nance proof foo.ne, you have to trust that nance compiles it correctly to foo.prv, then that prove checks it correctly. < 1269097905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove checking it correctly is basically certain, so: < 1269097912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust nance & ncr2prv vs trust nance. < 1269098089 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269098251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi pikhq. < 1269098919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you there? < 1269099513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer: No < 1269100372 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1269102427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo, I can use unetbootin to boot the ubuntu iso from an ntfs partition i think < 1269103588 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269103805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523! < 1269103810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried the 10.04 beta? < 1269103823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi and no < 1269103826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.9/bmi/news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/ubuntu10artwork-large_009.jpg ;; the theme is a bit pretty. < 1269103830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it uses Yahoo! by default (?!) < 1269103839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and includes some social networking bullshit by default; sigh < 1269103842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yahoo paid them more than google < 1269103847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can change it back easily enough < 1269103862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it exposes canonical a bit for the money-grabbing bastards they are :)) < 1269103883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm downloading 9.10 now just because I'd like some stability. 10.04? Maybe later. < 1269103888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I have more bandwidth, perhaps. < 1269103966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if only they'd fix the subpixel rendering... < 1269104137 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-208.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269104140 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck! Fuck! < 1269104143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking Chrome! Shit! < 1269104160 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My 3G connection dropped. Disconnected, reconnected - chrome portrays the ISO as downloaded - no resuming - fuck! < 1269104236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269104291 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Punch me so I feel better < 1269104297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: over HTTP? < 1269104307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, IRC? < 1269104309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over IRC, surely < 1269104337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nctritech.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/tcpip_punch1.jpg < 1269104376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders whether to redownload 9.10 or go for 10.04
< 1269104380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I take it it didn't manage to download before the connection dropped? < 1269104389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not unless I suddenly got a 100 mbit connection < 1269104407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why you should use something that can resume when you're on an uncertain connection < 1269104413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or always, really) < 1269104416 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I thought Chrome would be such a thing. < 1269104426 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think not; know. < 1269104461 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269104473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bizzare feature for Chrome not to have < 1269104586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Then you will be tanasin? < 1269104589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tanasinn < 1269104626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does tanasinn have to do with anything :-P < 1269104651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.04: Unstable lots of updates so network access and stuff... but nice themes and stuff, and, uh, ... < 1269104652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.10: Yeah < 1269104665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Don't think, feel. Then you will be tanasinn." < 1269104674 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1269104680 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw "feel", just know. < 1269104689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivist tanasinn. < 1269104695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269104748 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? : tanasinn < 1269104750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? = feel < 1269104753 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, stupid mirc < 1269104768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: isn't 10.04 the version which puts the minimize/close/maximise buttons on the top-left of the window, in defiance of both fitts' law and common sense? < 1269104860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it defy Fitts's? < 1269104892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It doesn't defy Fitts', and OS X does it too < 1269104899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the close position sucks though < 1269104905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unfittsy there, I agree < 1269104907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: the close position isn't in the corner, like it is on OS X < 1269104918 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/2010/03/13/ubuntu-lucid-and-that-button-layout/ < 1269104921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's very close to the menus, which has the effect of meaning you have to be more careful < 1269104935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/button-layout-kde.png seems like the best solution < 1269104941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the most fittsy of them all < 1269104992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, my close button's red already < 1269104995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the New Wave theme < 1269105000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it turns red when you hover over it < 1269105006 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269105007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't talking about redness :P < 1269105012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although it doesn't look like it stretches to the corner, it fdoes < 1269105014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: no, but he was < 1269105021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269105040 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/button-layout-kde.png <-- this is a pretty kde theme, I wonder what it is < 1269105056 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just installs 9.10, I'm too lazy to do anything fancy
< 1269105069 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's good for resumable windows downloads? < 1269105085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think firefox does them, but it's a bit bloated < 1269105094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could grab a Windows copy of wget, that would probably be ideal < 1269105097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a downloader < 1269105111 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/wgetgui_simple.png < 1269105113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1269105118 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/wgetgui_simple.png < 1269105123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I regret googling "Windows wget ui" < 1269105159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'd say go for a command-line tool < 1269105179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://1.2.3.11/ what? < 1269105187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid 3g broadband stick mangles all images :) < 1269105187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.2.3.0/24 is reserved < 1269105189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and webpages) < 1269105194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh < 1269105202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to add javascript so you can do shift-r/a to improve the quality of images) < 1269105206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, it's contributing to 1.2.3.0/24 pollution < 1269105214 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can send a certain header to stop it -- but I don't think Chrome can do that :)# < 1269105217 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1269105259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't it just use an IP in 10 or 192.168? < 1269105266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those would both be obvious choices, considering what it's doing < 1269105289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because idiots < 1269105313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The "obvious" reason for not using a private-area IP is to avoid conflicts for people who use those in their local networks, but I don't quite see how it'd apply for a 3G stick necessarily. < 1269105319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes < 1269105334 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget 172.16/12 < 1269105338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, avoiding conflicts by using you're using an address that's specifically reserved for a different purpose, and hoping nobody else will use it either? < 1269105345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*by using < 1269105361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could make some "172.16/12 - never forget!" T-shirts. < 1269105378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could, yes < 1269105396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I was aware there was a /12 floating around somewhere for that purpose, but not its number < 1269105490 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have one block in each of the class A, B and C ranges, even though everything's so CIDRy nowadays. < 1269105569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, there is not one shitty Windows download manager. < 1269105573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I'll just use command-line wget. < 1269105636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: http://www.oldversion.com/GetRight.html < 1269105679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's was not is < 1269105699 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the least shitty version? :-) < 1269105723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember, to be honest < 1269105725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been years :-P < 1269105739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably any of the ones that are there are non-shitty < 1269105790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their official description is funny: "GetRight® is a download manager that simply improves and optimizes the files you download from the Internet." < 1269105794 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently 6.3 is the latest, and it has 6, so probably not < 1269105799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only does it download well, it even makes the content better. < 1269105802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.5e; let's try that. < 1269105842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wise Installation Wizard. 2002. A /bit/ too old. < 1269105932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, that even predates XP, somehow < 1269105942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I remember wise < 1269105949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more for the uninstall program, which was called unwise < 1269105952 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries 1.3
< 1269105955 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269105963 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really old is good; new is sometimes good. < 1269105968 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In-between is shitty. Usually. For Windows. < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsupported 16-Bit Application < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program or feature "\??\C:\Users\Elliott\Documents\Downloads\getright13.exe" cannot start or run due to incompatibity with 64-bit versions of Windows. Please contact the software vendor to ask if a 64-bit Windows compatible version is available. < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1269105977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105979 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-BIT?! < 1269105992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: it was common back then, 32-bit programs were relatively unreliable on XP < 1269106004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I always wrote 16-bit for XP because it had trouble getting 32-bit programs working correctly < 1269106007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269106015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, XP (before SP) and 98 < 1269106020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: 2002 is too old? I had probably stopped using getright by 2000 < 1269106020 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all XP programs are 32-bit. And this is really old, not XP era. < 1269106024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue being that half the APIs didn't work < 1269106032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, but Wise gives me AIDS. < 1269106034 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what do you use? < 1269106036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you had to keep trying them more or less at random until you found one that did < 1269106042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, it gives me AIDS every single time I use it.) < 1269106054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I use a reliable Internet connection ;-) < 1269106064 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, slight issues with that < 1269106083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1999 < 1269106092 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try this < 1269106098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Opera probably has this stuff built in, FWIW. It tends to. < 1269106098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's party like it's. < 1269106102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that before Windows really understood networking? < 1269106111 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269106152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_: it was common back then, 32-bit programs were relatively unreliable on XP < 1269106154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blink* < 1269106167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: early versions, at least < 1269106172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is in a fantasy world of crazy < 1269106175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard him :) < 1269106176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's rather hard to believe < 1269106179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, either that, or it's just that my 32-bit compiler was rather unreliable < 1269106184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about it, that seems a lot more plausible < 1269106187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sure, for windows 95 or windows NT 4.0 < 1269106188 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably a matter of definition; compared to 3.x, all the 9x releases have been pretty internet-savvy. I don't even think you needed a separate TCP/IP stack any more. (Or was it so that IE in 95 still had one?) < 1269106194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes probably there it could happen < 1269106198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but XP... < 1269106213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Certainly not in 98. Not sure about 95. < 1269106217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that "getright" btw? < 1269106227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download manager. < 1269106230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269106235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what for? < 1269106241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Downloads? :-P < 1269106245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I never saw the point of them < 1269106255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can they do that normal tools to download can't? < 1269106255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Does it do the impolite "open multiple connections to same server" thing by default?-) < 1269106257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resuming on failed connection < 1269106267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man this program is so uh... 1999 < 1269106270 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not sure. It might. < 1269106281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think the early versions didn't, at least. < 1269106288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, is there no wget for windows? I'm pretty sure there was a non-cygwin port of wget < 1269106291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wget has -c < 1269106293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to resume < 1269106312 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269106323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There is, but meh. < 1269106328 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer it automatically doing so when my connection breaks. < 1269106336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write a good download manager, except I won't be using Windows for much longer. < 1269106343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I'd prefer it to do when I regain connection instead ;P < 1269106349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Back in the day there might not have been; plus it's CLI, so a bit annoying for normal people, and thus it only handles one file at once. < 1269106350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, yes. < 1269106388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interface for my download manager would be a list with filenames, progress meters, downladed/total, speed, estimated time and a cancel button to remove it from the list. Downloading would be dragging a URL to the window. < 1269106389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, back in the day it would have been too slow to download more than one file at once < 1269106390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :End of :P < 1269106402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your modem connection that is < 1269106411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, is there a good GUI download manager even for Linux that isn't attached to a browser? < 1269106416 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with zmodem you could chat /and/ download < 1269106417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, like the firefox download list basically? < 1269106421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget's an excellent /command-line/ download manager, but it isn't GUI < 1269106422 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but why? linux browsers do it just fine :P < 1269106429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: curiosity < 1269106429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think firefox does do resuming < 1269106433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, this links into an excellent idea I had for a GNOME UI feature < 1269106437 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-114-188.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pretty sure I saw a KDE one once < 1269106440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269106441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ^ < 1269106452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now you ask what it is < 1269106454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it was ais523 who asked it in fact < 1269106457 0 :wIRC9!~warirc@41.217.65.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, which is exactly why you want a manager, so that you can queue dozens. < 1269106465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox queus < 1269106468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*queues < 1269106474 0 :wIRC9!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269106478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ais523: you have nicks starting on same char and of the same length < 1269106480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269106481 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please fix < 1269106486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ASK WHAT IT IS < 1269106488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1269106491 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your nick also starts with the same char < 1269106496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, what is it/ < 1269106498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think it went so that plain 95 didn't include a TCP/IP stack, but they made one and distributed it with IE 2-or-so and the later 95 versions; and I think the IE dialler and stack also worked in 3.11 later on. There was also a version of Trumpet Winsock for 95. < 1269106498 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is of the same length if you pad it out! < 1269106506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll tell you in /msg, it's floody < 1269106507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you wanted me to ask AnMaster what his KDE download manager was < 1269106510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is of different case and nick of different length < 1269106517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never tried it < 1269106522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IRC is case-insensitive < 1269106523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just noticed that one existed < 1269106540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey, I didn't ask, it was alise_ who didn't ask me to ask you! < 1269106543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure, but that isn't relevant to visually reading the nicks < 1269106549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I do remember that for a 3.11 user, the IE dialler was considerably more modern-looking than the (maybe not most current) version of Trumpet I had. < 1269106563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're different colours in this client... < 1269106579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, trumpet? < 1269106604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never liked that, most of the time it is even more confusing < 1269106609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Trumpet Winsock. < 1269106620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a ppp program? < 1269106636 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think it could do PPP too; also SLIP. < 1269106641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269106695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't think you can chat and download simultaneously with (unmodified) ZMODEM, because I think the main "killer feature" of SMODEM was the chat thing. (And there was some competitors too.) < 1269106725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269106725 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, smodem then < 1269106725 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269106737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't smodem something used for BBS or such < 1269106742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMODEM also does bidirectional transfers. < 1269106743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269106744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than internet dialup < 1269106757 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure this resume worked < 1269106773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SModem.png -- look, isn't it awesome! < 1269106779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck this shit, someone mail me an ubuntu cd < 1269106797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, you could get them for free before iirc < 1269106801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure nowdays < 1269106877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it takes time < 1269106889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does it for everyone else here too < 1269106889 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269106906 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries wackget instead
< 1269106997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switch to the QNX Demo Disk, it's modern as anything, with a web browser and all, and yet you'd have to download just two floppies. < 1269107002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html < 1269107010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might have some problems with the 3G stick in it, though. < 1269107025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's the "QNX Is Cool!" demo! < 1269107030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107046 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107197 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-044.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one unreliable network. < 1269107308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1269107386 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdgdfgdfgfdgdfg < 1269107408 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afphhpfhffhpfphhnjgeul < 1269107580 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107604 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269107604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107622 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107699 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269107734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107751 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107887 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269108172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269108206 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269108267 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269108268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone remember optbot? :) < 1269108277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, vaguely < 1269108280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't remember what it did < 1269108296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeated random lines from history < 1269108306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember it was named for me < 1269108309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269108317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, also AnMaster < 1269108323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster said otpbot for the erlang thing < 1269108327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opt was like < 1269108334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan's Puns Terrible or something < 1269108341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it was Oerjan's Terrible Puns < 1269108343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1269108345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I kept typoing opt < 1269108347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for otp < 1269108348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i made it opt < 1269108366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very optional < 1269108389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot can also repeat random lines from history, it just gets a bit confused sometimes. < 1269108392 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the question of rendered fat, the commission will clearly seek every available means to escape the current legal framework, mr president, and what we are intending to use its relationships with european partners, the non-governmental organizations which, in the coming months, the forwarding of appropriations to implement the legislation and practice. however, we must support all initiatives that aim at strengthening our < 1269108405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, someone's been doing politics again. < 1269108439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:24:03 ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; } < 1269108444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aieeeee < 1269108449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot-tweet: "About NetHack: hacking: the chamber was of a retreating nymph. 'saruman!' he cried, and treasure it as though it were a piece of v-shaped..." < 1269108454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can you eval in the caller's scope? < 1269108497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local is dynamically scoped, not static, if that's perl < 1269108512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(proper static is "my" iirc) < 1269108524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look like perl; there's no sub, and no sigil for the var. < 1269108541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1269108563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can eval code in the caller's scope in MATLAB, too: evalin('caller', 'x = 42'); is a rather impolite thing to do. < 1269108584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can't you do geometry on rationals? < 1269108592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you need square roots < 1269108611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even evalin('base', 'x = 42'); if you want it to be evaluated directly in the workspace of the user's session. < 1269108625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl, you can't exactly eval in the caller's scope < 1269108627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constructible numbers it's the smallest field closed under square roots < 1269108629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1269108638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can take the caller's local/lexical variables from the symbol table and modify them that way < 1269108658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, field of reals) < 1269108679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Why would one ever want to use this? :-P < 1269108707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can use it to forcibly return values, even if the caller doesn't want you to. :p < 1269108728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, you can use it to be obnoxious < 1269108729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's also a curious restriction: "evalin cannot be used recursively to evaluate an expression. For example, a sequence of the form evalin('caller', 'evalin(''caller'', ''x'')') doesn't work." < 1269108730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bash not perl < 1269108734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eqaw4235s6etf987yg-p09uh-o]=p < 1269108759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: can you eval in the caller's scope? <-- that is bash, but well I think I described it at the time I mentioned it < 1269108760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[#324qw56e7ri8ulp9jo[0j['0oi;pj0l98hyngtfrxeadwq4rs6hu8,ghp0oi[;0,l98gu7y6tfry5d6t4esrw3aqe4st6p0o'l[0ogy6utfd65eswra432qstdey6p[0o'0j98sw5y6gtik09y6tr4eswgr4sw6tr4efwas4uy60pytfresar6y6tr4fesw646ir4fe3r4y6eaw87tr4ef < 1269108761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's also assignin() if you want to stick a value into the caller's workspace without having to turn it into a string like that. < 1269108768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eval < 1269108770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1269108791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Awfully handy, I suppose < 1269108829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The examples do look a bit contrived. < 1269108831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, why aieeee? You saw it before < 1269108855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "The assignin function is particularly useful for these tasks: Exporting data from a function to the MATLAB workspace. Within a function, changing the value of a variable that is defined in the workspace of the caller function (such as a variable in the function argument list)." < 1269108865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in INTERCAL, you can assign variables in the caller's scope by temporarily ending scope for that variable, then resuming it again < 1269108873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scopes in INTERCAL don't actually have to be well-nested < 1269108874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I guess the latter part makes it a sort of a pass-by-reference mechanism. < 1269108906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can do value = evalin('caller', varname) to "dereference" the "pointer", and then assignin('caller', varname, value) to set it. < 1269108926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Contrived, yes. :-) < 1269108951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I prefer the INTERCAL method < 1269108967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, MATLAB's completely pass-by-value, as far as I remember, so if you want to do that sort of stuff... < 1269109005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a copy-on-write thing if you pass in a large matrix.) < 1269109011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as for eval in caller's scope, define what that actually would mean in terms of bash scoping please < 1269109024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pass-by-singular-reference < 1269109029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out how the question makes sense in bash's model < 1269109032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all equal values have the same reference; passing a value passes this reference < 1269109038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutating it mutates it in all places < 1269109073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = {x += 1}; y = 2+1; f(3); print(y) --> 4 < 1269109095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, everything will be resolved to the first scope that has it < 1269109146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing for which eval in local scope would differ from eval in own scope would be: a) making new local variables in caller b) in case of your own local variables shadowing the caller's < 1269109158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer to those is: "no you can't do that" < 1269109182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, why not? < 1269109204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone remember my language where you could goto /anywhere/? :) < 1269109209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I do < 1269109209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was beautiful < 1269109215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASIC? < 1269109216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was, but rather too similar to INTERCAL < 1269109223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, it was structured that's the beauty < 1269109225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, you could goto, say, the inside of an expression < 1269109231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :returns were jumping to the right place in your caller < 1269109236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could jump into the middle of a loop and it'd work fine < 1269109237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269109238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can do that in Overload too < 1269109242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asm, then ;-) < 1269109243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wasn't sure about expressions < 1269109244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Overload is a mess that I've abandoned < 1269109245 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269109246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any statement, certainly < 1269109252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :executing a pointer took you to wherever the pointer was pointing < 1269109263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixing the callstack after that was your responsibility < 1269109265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it used CPS) < 1269109270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so there wasn't really a callstack) < 1269109273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : aww, why not? <-- I can't think of a way to do theose < 1269109274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those* < 1269109275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why < 1269109276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269109277 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269109283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone else know a way, please tell < 1269109284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I invented CPS without realising it < 1269109297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/just now/ I have realised that Overload is CPS < 1269109303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's been like that for years < 1269109331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269109391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I just realised that 16:24:03 ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; } < 1269109393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would break < 1269109403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the callee had it's own local variable "myvar" defined < 1269109407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before that printf -v < 1269109435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to ensure a roubust program, local variables should be prefixed with some sort of namespacy thingy < 1269109439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe like: < 1269109454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lcl__ < 1269109457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1269109475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hey, the only usage example for evalin is "This example extracts the value of the variable var in the MATLAB base workspace and captures the value in the local variable v: v = evalin('base', 'var');" It doesn't really help in understanding why you'd want to use it. < 1269109549 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269109588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the reason for using this sort of thing in bash < 1269109596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that you can only return an unsigned byte < 1269109601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from functions < 1269109605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, an exit code < 1269109628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you *have* to do this way to return anything more complex < 1269109638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's silly that way. Matlab lets you return an arbitrary number of return values, and in any case those return values can be arbitrary data structures. < 1269109643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use some global "return_value" variable < 1269109651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems even more error prone < 1269109680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also for bash this is just a side effect of the scoping rules < 1269109685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf -v is just "print to variable name" < 1269109694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because indirect assignment requires that or eval < 1269109714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do foo=quux; $foo=bar and get bar into quux < 1269109750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the other way around, reading a variable from the variable name you get passed as a variable there is special syntax < 1269109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in MATLAB you'd be most likely to use this as a some sort of a debugging aid; sticking an "assignin('base', 'temp', confusing_expression);" somewhere means that after executing it, you'll have the value inspectable in the session. < 1269109789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo=bar; myvariable=foo; echo ${!myvariable} would echo bar I think < 1269109793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I confused the syntax < 1269109798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been something else than ! there < 1269109820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does matlab have a debugger though? < 1269109864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash 4 has associative arrays, but I "emulated" that before in bash 3.x < 1269109872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really messy < 1269109969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUPID FUCKING PIECE OF < 1269109970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1269109978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1269109986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm does C++ have anything to mess up the scoping? < 1269110015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, that might one of the very few sane parts of C++... (C has quite sane scoping IMO) < 1269110021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably, C++ can mess up /anything/ < 1269110068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, C99 does something strange for inline without static iirc < 1269110082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular extern inline, which might be a GNU extension < 1269110142 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr there was a gnu extension, and then C99 invented something with the same syntax but a different meaning < 1269110169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr? < 1269110176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and yes that sounds familiar < 1269110187 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall < 1269110194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269110196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afdnkjsdfn\jkfkjsdaghsdkfghjsdkjfghskjdfghdafsgdfg < 1269110199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this fucking 3g stick piece of crap < 1269110213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, calm down, it won't become better because you are angry at it < 1269110229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively: channel your rage, and insert a really bad star wars joke < 1269110257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been trying to download this file for .... like three hours < 1269110262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first time almost done cut off < 1269110270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then my connection broke while trying to find ONE download manager that works < 1269110270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so resume < 1269110273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget -c would work < 1269110275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's just cutting off randomly after 30 seconds or so < 1269110279 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boba fet voice: kbytes will do fine < 1269110280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: BUT NONE OF THIS SHIT IS WORKING YOU IDIOT >_< < 1269110285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How big is the file? < 1269110289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well on the original file < 1269110300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is some sort of "he has no patience" starwars joke to be made here. < 1269110314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 600 megabytes or therewithin < 1269110316 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to go with the "Credits will do fine" < 1269110318 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke < 1269110321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d you have to use -c the first time to use -c later? < 1269110327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it matters < 1269110332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 kb/sec, wonderful < 1269110334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that too, but I was going for the "try to convert to dark side" < 1269110345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 kb/sec is a rather respectable modem speed. < 1269110356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, this will be quicker: I'm coming to Birmingham; have an Ubuntu 9.10 USB stick ready when I arrive < 1269110357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fizzie said < 1269110359 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall some sort of "a megabyte per hour" rule of thumb. < 1269110360 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo apt-get install sith < 1269110364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he stole my joke < 1269110372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: USB stick's ready already < 1269110378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are you /serious/? < 1269110384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 600 megabytes would take you several days with a modem connection; I wouldn't worry about a few hours < 1269110395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... let me ask google maps < 1269110420 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269110460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... on public transport it'd take me anywhere between 7 and 10 hours < 1269110470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by car, only 3.5 hours < 1269110481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, use quantum mechanics to transfer a car here < 1269110497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems implausible < 1269110502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need -c to resume later? < 1269110505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it work anyway < 1269110507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say it works anyway < 1269110508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1269110522 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need -c at the first invocation, if that's what you mean. < 1269110527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only later when you're trying to resume. < 1269110532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good because it just broke < 1269110535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what's the thing again to resume < 1269110554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wget -c foo < 1269110560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo is url or filename < 1269110565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, url < 1269110581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1269110585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let's hope it actually resumes < 1269110585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without -c wget will start downloading to .1 < 1269110586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead < 1269110603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and lets hope there is no data corruption < 1269110613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it will not resume < 1269110625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I remember downloading an iso (arch or ubuntu iirc) and the data was corrupted near the start < 1269110632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since then I use bittorrent for linux iso downloads < 1269110638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more reliable < 1269110642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it should resume < 1269110659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange if it doesn't < 1269110679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't remember where you live, but walking from Hexham (which I think was at least nearby at some point) to where I live would take you just 5 days, 13 hours. (It involves some 371 steps; you take the Newcastle-Ijmuiden-Amsterdam ferry to Netherlands, then the Hoek van Holland-Harwich ferry back to UK, then the Harwich-Esbjerg ferry to Denmark; then you just walk across Denmark (a hundred miles or so), take another ferry to Rostock, and from there to H < 1269110679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsinki, Finland. < 1269110680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does the server support not starting at the start? < 1269110694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 371 steps? < 1269110698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1269110700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"would take you just 5 days, 13 hours. (It involves some 371 steps;" < 1269110701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you mean footsteps. < 1269110704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269110706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah same < 1269110715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with large enough boots. < 1269110735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Also, why on earth would you go back to the UK? :D < 1269110749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Because Google Maps says so! < 1269110786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... UK->NL->UK->DK->FI? < 1269110798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You forgot Germany there. (Rostock's in Germany.) < 1269110799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems on crack < 1269110802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh < 1269110822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not over Sweden? He is missing out on stuff then < 1269110851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Presumably it's because walking is so slow; it's good to find routes where you don't have much walking between ferry stops. < 1269110888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269110966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/alise_walkabout.png < 1269110991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a funny-looking loop near the Netherlands. < 1269111039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I asked it for walking directions from Copenhagen to Amsterdam (our summer trip goes thereby); it gave me this really silly denmark-norway-denmark-norway-UK-holland thing. < 1269111042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if it takes ferries, why not also take trains? < 1269111076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Walking directions are in beta, you see. < 1269111087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269111102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Walking directions might not be the best idea :-P < 1269111108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it includes ferries because sometimes you cannot avoid them, while you could always walk along the train tracks... < 1269111122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay bittorrent download is going fast < 1269111122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try walking directions from new york to somewhere in Europe < 1269111131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'd rather not < 1269111137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They removed the "swim over atlantic ocean" thing, I think. < 1269111138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not performing it < 1269111156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did that actually happen in it once?! < 1269111184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could not calculate directions between new york and helsinki. < 1269111189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes :) < 1269111193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1269111201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See e.g. http://www.ghacks.net/2007/04/11/google-maps-swim-across-the-atlantic-ocean/ < 1269111228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't do helsinki to moscow anyway :( < 1269111230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*either < 1269111233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The car-directions hexham->helsinki make more sense < 1269111246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walking directions to Helsinki, Finland < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.0 mi < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland < 1269111247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It still has "Kayak across the Pacific Ocean" as a possibility. < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Head east toward Simonkatu < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.0 mi < 1269111248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1269111248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki < 1269111249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland < 1269111258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you ask for "new york to sydney", for example. < 1269111268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? < 1269111276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that an easteregg then? < 1269111287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it seems unlikely to be due to an oversight < 1269111304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say <_< < 1269111314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Most likely. It's given for the "by car" directions, anyway, and I'm not sure how you're meant to take the car with you in the kayak. < 1269111326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one pretty big kayak. < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :57. Take the 1st left onto Kalakaua Ave 1.9 mi < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :58. Kayak across the Pacific Ocean < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entering Japan 3,879 mi < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :59. Turn right toward 県道263号線 0.3 mi < 1269111395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly what you want is a large kon-tiki style raft big enough for a car < 1269111397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I get it for walking between New York and Hawaii < 1269111400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :753. Kayak across the Pacific Ocean < 1269111400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entering Hawaii < 1269111401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto W Denton Way < 1269111401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go through 1 roundabout < 1269111404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are for the walking directions < 1269111406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1269111425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It should have a "Dodge the car's like it's Frogger!" written-in-red comment there. :p < 1269111430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, "cars". < 1269111453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, could it be that there are sidewalks? < 1269111478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Go THROUGH 1 roundabout" < 1269111512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly Google has a psychotic AI running that. < 1269111541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Anyway, I asked for walking directions because the only other alternative was "by car", and we're not going to have/rent one; it doesn't do trains. (Was there some sort of limited-region public transportation thing already?) < 1269111565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=hexham&daddr=helsinki+to:brussels&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&dirflg=w&sll=-5.52475,179.448463&sspn=74.498813,114.433594&ie=UTF8&ll=48.806863,8.481445&spn=13.289494,28.608398&z=5 < 1269111573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hexham, Helsinki, Brussels. < 1269111581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can always hitchhike. < 1269111588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does public transport now, yes. < 1269111592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You should have visited me. < 1269111595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to go from stockholm to london by walking < 1269111601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells me to visit riga on the way < 1269111624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the route is even crazier for Stockholm to Manchester < 1269111631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In retrospect, the "by car" instructions worked better for my "I just want some sort of time estimate for the train routes" use anyway. < 1269111640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yep < 1269111651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it seems to be non-deterministic < 1269111660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get different results when I retry the same search < 1269111676 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: where are you trying to get to? < 1269111686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1269111699 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Nowhere at the moment, we have the routes all planned up already. I was just wondering back then. < 1269111770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's a bit sad that I could find no sensible train routing system that'd export me a .gpx file. I toyed a bit with OpenStreetMap editors, but it seemed non-trivial to extract long-distance train route geodata from that either, since the tracks aren't very comprehensively grouped into sets, just partially-somewhere-a-bit. < 1269111815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In the end I just took a generic .gpx editor thing that could display openstreetmap layers, and added some manual polylines over the railway lines that we're going to take. (I wanted a map of our route to show to relatives.) < 1269111818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be able to sympathize if I knew what a .gpx was, but I guess it's some standard format for that. < 1269111840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's a bit like Google's KML; a XML format for tracks, waypoints and such. < 1269111841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stockholm-Rostock by walking takes you through first Tallinn then Helsinki < 1269111933 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure how comprehensive their ferry schedules are. They might not include those cruise-line corporations, even though those have those "route trip" style tickets in addition to the cruises. < 1269111952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269111952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Certainly you can get directly from Stockholm to Helsinki, at the very least; most likely from Stockholm to Rostock too. < 1269111963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably going by Åland < 1269111974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the tax free reasons < 1269112094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place. < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :team. < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking piece of shit < 1269112108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what service? < 1269112117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vodafuckingfone < 1269112126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, I mean the blocked one < 1269112129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmobile do the same but i unlocked it on that one but that one is all flutty right nw so i'm using this one < 1269112130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imgur < 1269112133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is all other image hosts < 1269112141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this stick is PAID FOR < 1269112148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269112149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have no right to fuck with the data I'M paying for, nanny < 1269112152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1269112162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: On the other hand, I 'm not sure you people need those ferries very much; you can just take one of those fancy-schmancy X2000 trains from Stockholm to Copenhagen, then another train from there to anywhere in Germany you'd like; that's what we're going to do, anyway. < 1269112182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mhm. X2000 aren't really fancy < 1269112192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively slow compared to TGV and so on < 1269112193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is pixlr.com blocked? < 1269112193 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: With that sort of name, it almost has to be. < 1269112203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If not, you can use that < 1269112204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you never went on X2000 before? < 1269112220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upurs.us/image/11623.jpeg < 1269112222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't been going round Sweden much. < 1269112222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A jpeg but who cares < 1269112225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they are tilting trains though, might feel a bit strange when taking curves thus < 1269112235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can almost ignore the bloat behind the screen. < 1269112251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is able to resume downloads easily enough < 1269112251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think they're not much different from the local Pendolino ones. < 1269112272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I like BitTorrent. < 1269112277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But uTorrent is normally a lot less simple than that. < 1269112279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (Except that ours break down all the time.) < 1269112290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so do ours sometimes < 1269112298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like last autumn or such < 1269112307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Example: http://blog.consultmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/utorrent-general-view.png < 1269112310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had to take almost all out of service to replace the wheels < 1269112315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some construction issue < 1269112317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Finnish Pendolinos have received a lot of bad publicity in Finland for their serious reliability issues, mostly caused by technical problems with their tilting system and couplers. The train did not manage to cope with the severe winter conditions." < 1269112343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I prefer that view :P < 1269112364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Madman. < 1269112369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1269112386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is fluff with no purpose; statistics pon for people with no IRC to waste time on. < 1269112387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*porn < 1269112400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269112472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdOS would be fine here because it would be less than 690 megabytes. < 1269112491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Did you miss my QNX demo disk suggestion?-) < 1269112496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No. :P < 1269112507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, just use debug.com. < 1269112523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The "QNX is Cool!" demo! How could you resist! < 1269112533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lateral thinking puzzle: You have no optical drive, no USB sticks, no floppies, no storage media whatsoever. You have a hard drive, Windows and the interwebs. How do you boot the Ubuntu LiveCD to install it to the spare partition you have? < 1269112542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked it out. :P < 1269112580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you use wubi? < 1269112600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wubi installs to a file in an NTFS partition, and does not boot the LiveCD. < 1269112605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269112610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, it literally /puts a Linux partition in a file on an NTFS partition/.) < 1269112612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Awful.) < 1269112625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well do that but to the installer instead < 1269112636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then load the whole thing into ram (hope it fits!) < 1269112643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and work from there < 1269112646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have one go < 1269112647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, what you said makes no sense. < 1269112649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't mess it up < 1269112650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try again. < 1269112661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, repartition and put the thing there < 1269112667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then boot that < 1269112683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? You only have NTDLR. < 1269112694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't get Linux. < 1269112695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well you can chainload with ntdlr < 1269112695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't boot Linux. < 1269112702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes it is possible < 1269112705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1269112706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I have done it < 1269112708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only have Windows. < 1269112712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No LiveCD or anything to set this up. < 1269112718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on completely the wrong track. < 1269112720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... Install a boot disk image that can read ISOs off of NTFS filesystems, chainload it from NTLDR, and have that boot into the LiveCD. < 1269112721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, topology linux works kind of like wubi does < 1269112726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes ntldr load grub < 1269112734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to then boot linux < 1269112741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it many many years ago < 1269112757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that might work too < 1269112758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just tell you. < 1269112762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1269112764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done the "Linux in ntldr boot menu" thing too; it involves just extracting a 512-byte boot sector into file, and adding one line to boot.ini; or at least that's the way it worked with win2k. < 1269112775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, something like that yes < 1269112782 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you'd just run the installer in a VM, with the spare partition direct-mounted, but that doesn't solve the booting thing really, I guess. < 1269112782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/. It fucks with NTDLR to boot Linux from an NTFS partition (part of one that is not a whole one) prepared from the .iso you want. < 1269112791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You then use this to install Ubuntu, then reboot Windows; it will undo the changes. < 1269112817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I've never heard of topology linux. < 1269112821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google shows nothing. < 1269112826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ever heard of colinux? < 1269112854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I guess topology linux is dead then < 1269112856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a Slackware-based distro that installed onto an NTFS partition, could boot either onto the straight system or via coLinux. < 1269112864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah yes you heard of it then < 1269112866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Been ages since I've seen it, though. < 1269112894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall there was a Slackware installation method which puts the linux system in a FAT filesystem, not in a single file; all files are different FAT files, and there's one huge hidden metadata file to keep ownership and inode and real-filename information in. < 1269112905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course loadlin; I used to use loadlin to boot my first Slackware. < 1269112911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269112915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With an entry in a dos 6.22 boot menu to directly invoke loadlin.) < 1269112923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose loadlin's no-go in modern Windowses. < 1269112934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, DragonLinux IIRC... < 1269112936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway I think it is likely your way will fuck up the system so you can't recover from it < 1269112947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UMSDOS is no longer maintained, so that doesn't work. ;) < 1269112962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes, "umsdos" was the name. < 1269112962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why, because you say so? It is a supported method of install < 1269112967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hrrm < 1269112972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just googling for "udos", so that was pretty close. < 1269112978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what happens if the install fails when the disk is partly overwritten < 1269113010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh... you install onto a different partition. < 1269113018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how do you make the partition then? < 1269113022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1269113033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal windows system is one huge partition < 1269113043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but this is already partitioned into two, conveniently. < 1269113052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah that helps a lot indeed < 1269113059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The original problem statement did involve "the spare partition you have". < 1269113066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, must have missed that < 1269113139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use partitionmagic to repartition anyway, if you're feeling lucky < 1269113149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, when running from the same system!? < 1269113169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think it can install something to do it at boot < 1269113176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah plausible < 1269113190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be replacing autochk entry I presume, like those "defrag on boot" tools do < 1269113191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't from the same system < 1269113192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reboots the system < 1269113201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uses the tinkered bootloader to run the on-NTFS Linux < 1269113205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we were talking about repartitioning < 1269113221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PartitionMagic does (or did, anyway) that, yes; you queue the actions, it asks you to reboot, at boot-time it does the magic. < 1269113236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, plausible but scary. < 1269113236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so do it from inside the ubuntu livecd < 1269113265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I wouldn't like that, if the file for the livecd image had to be moved < 1269113276 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What would be scary would be to use some sort of alpha-quality parted NTFS resize patch. (I'm not sure if there is one yet, but I'm sure there will be at some point.) < 1269113298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can use gparted to resize ntfs < 1269113300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works fine < 1269113313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't want parted running from the partition (or even disk) being resized < 1269113316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/features.shtml was lying to me, then. < 1269113326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, gparted invokes ntfsresize then parted < 1269113346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it doesn't let parted do the whole work < 1269113363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, gparted is in fact more than just a GUI frontend to parted < 1269113390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just dont run anything new < 1269113392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't < 1269113394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it won't need to touch the disk < 1269113395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269113408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, unlikely, any data moving will push things out of disk cache < 1269113418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the large amounts of data being moved < 1269113422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it loads into ram < 1269113426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe unetbootin copies everything to ram anyway < 1269113429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so if I did it, I would do it from a ram disk indeed < 1269113430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for overwriting windows < 1269113458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and what if the install failed if you *are* overwriting linux. Yeah you are into deep problems, that's my point < 1269113505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*overwriting windows < 1269113511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you green. < 1269113516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269113527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah overwriting windows < 1269113528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1269113541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is easy to end up with an unbootable system and no usb drive or cd to recover it from < 1269113546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 7 isn't too bad. < 1269113551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu is nicer though. < 1269113701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you going to dual boot? < 1269113815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just in case. < 1269113823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for lessriskiness of installation. < 1269113872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269113885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how big is the disk? < 1269114038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :690 mb < 1269114111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1269114311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1269114396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So slow. < 1269114734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err? < 1269114740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :690 mb harddrive!? < 1269114766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you are joking < 1269114793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netbook. < 1269114811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, even so, 690 mb. would be extreme < 1269114818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you expect 10 gb at least < 1269114833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269114833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't mean the iso < 1269114842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no 2gb for netbooks < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to 4gb < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the minimum < 1269114854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, says who? microsoft? < 1269114855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(minimum, note) < 1269114875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so how large is your harddrive/SSD < 1269114876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the minimum you see < 1269114883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the dell mini 9 comes with that by default, iirc < 1269114883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 250gb hd divided in two partitions, anyway < 1269114887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WINDOWS and Data, which has hard drive recovery stuff by default < 1269114891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a hard drive not an ssd < 1269114899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cost �497, not �1,500 :-) < 1269114929 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269114935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5350 kr < 1269114940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you swedetard < 1269115059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"swedetard" < 1269115060 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1269115178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269115179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Could you put that in real money? < 1269115224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; sec. < 1269115265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9547252537776.06 ZW$ < 1269115276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that may be the pre-reset Zimbabwean dollar. < 1269115290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a few orders of magnitude too small. < 1269115303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's the post-reset one. < 1269115310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where $1 became old $1bn) < 1269115317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$746, anyway < 1269115323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(US) < 1269115331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the use of the dollar as an official currency was effectively abandoned on 12 April 2009 as a result of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe legalising the use of foreign currencies for transactions in January 2009 < 1269115333 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269115336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1269115346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The USD isn't real currency. I was just mocking your country's lack of Euroness. < 1269115397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it was $10bn. < 1269115405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; Sweden needs to get on the Euro bandwagon. < 1269115409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you meant USD?!?!?!?! < 1269115426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269115430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you meant UK?!?!?!?! < 1269115442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269115454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the UK < 1269115473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll go to Norway, they have the Euro :P < 1269115479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1269115499 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-31-201.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269115528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they also have... shudder.. Lutefisk. < 1269115749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they have caustic food. < 1269115777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shudder. < 1269115875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that there don't seem to be any pirate copies of mathematica for linux on the tubes
< 1269115889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, none of 7 anyway. < 1269115894 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269115945 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just haven't found them. < 1269116029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 34.5. < 1269116031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269116036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica porn! < 1269116203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I don't have access to any actually decent torrent trackers. < 1269116213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica 5 2 Win Linux Mac � software other operating systems applications windows < 1269116215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.2; wonderful. < 1269116267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>200kb download speed! < 1269116271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a 3G stick! < 1269116272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot! < 1269116299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And back down again :P < 1269116355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Are you Google-deficient? "mathematica 7 linux torrent", top link. < 1269116438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never before had success using Google to find torrents. < 1269116463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, Mathematica on OS X expands to a 4GB .app :x < 1269116466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when installed < 1269116527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got back and read the line: " Mathematica porn!" < 1269116533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I nearly puked < 1269116536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269116582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, tpb has mathematica 7 for linux iirc < 1269116601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by pure coincidence, so have I < 1269116610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completely* unrelated of course < 1269116625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269116663 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-246-57.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269116771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have any Linux-related shittiness? < 1269116779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica < 1269116793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, not an idiotic copyright defender. < 1269116798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you < 1269116800 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the idiot < 1269116813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, copyright infringement is - apart from being an uncrime invented by idiots - not theft even if you support it. < 1269116820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Economically, nonsense. Morally, nonsense. < 1269116827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firsly: shut up, you're an idiot < 1269116840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how you both called each other idiots without even knowing what you were actually going to say < 1269116840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you continue calling me an idiot without basis I will simply put you on /ignore. < 1269116860 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good then you might stop telling me I suck < 1269116873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I know he's a Wolfram fanboy and calling copyright infringement stealing along with the brash wording of "why the fuck would you steal mathematica" gave me a pretty good predictor < 1269116883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I haven't done that but if you want to distort something I've said that way I won't stop you < 1269116899 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you're such an idiot you can't even remember something that happened this morning < 1269116983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just grepped the logs, I never said you sucked < 1269117007 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay well you could also learn to spell < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:00:58 I don't know < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:01:17 :| < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:01:20 u suk < 1269117036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269117050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.5 hours ago < 1269117061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's rude to be all impatient like "I'm waiting" while someones trying to think < 1269117083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you're pissed off because I wasn't being totally serious all the time? < 1269117090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like I didn't gratuitously adorn things with emoticons either < 1269117092 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269117097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're way too hypersensitive < 1269117105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^ // < 1269117147 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: redunant < 1269117182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn. < 1269117372 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-69-66.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269117480 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1269117622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does it have any Linux-related shittiness? <-- some < 1269117630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you by that means "buggy" < 1269117640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to disable the java stuff or it bogs down the whole system < 1269117645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need to get some replacement files < 1269117654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to fix other causes of bogging down the whole system < 1269117661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the java stuff is needed for the built in help stuff < 1269117727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise be nice to me :/ < 1269117733 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't run into any system-bogging, and the help has worked too :-P < 1269117740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 64-bit edition? < 1269117748 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too, yes < 1269117752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, check number of wakeups with powertop while mathematica is running < 1269117758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is caused around 5000 per seconds < 1269117768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if java link is enabled < 1269117774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I'd call "bogging down the whole system" < 1269117777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on a laptop that just doesn't work < 1269117788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well true, that is what the other replacement files fix < 1269117789 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's using excessive amounts of power, but that's it < 1269117793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 100% CPU usage < 1269117807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, see, the 100% CPU usage I haven't run into :-P < 1269117809 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-45.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269117812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I did < 1269117832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so be nice to me < 1269117837 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you < 1269117850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see, this is /not/ the way you ask me to be nice to you < 1269117855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, why do you think alise is an idiot for pirating mathematica < 1269117859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to hear a reason < 1269117866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because he's a wolfram fanboy and calls copyright infringement "stealing" < 1269117867 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I just called him an idiot because he said that to me < 1269117870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is ridiculous from both of you < 1269117873 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't know anything < 1269117875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Wolfram + Piracy is evil = you monster < 1269117882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriouly just stop guessing < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh no, not an idiotic copyright defender. < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fuck you < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're the idiot < 1269117883 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269117883 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269117884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1269117886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I mean < 1269117893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's what I commented on earlier < 1269117896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, please explain what you meant with your first line there < 1269117897 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah I just explained it < 1269117909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, no, you didn't < 1269117919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, you didn't explain "alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica" < 1269117926 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's to explain < 1269117934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, that statement < 1269117942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can think of lots of reason to pirate mathematica < 1269117949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is your reasons not to < 1269117992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and wolfram is somwhat insane. He needs to get medical help before his ego kills him < 1269118125 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Pentatope_of_70_spheres_animation_original.gif < 1269118440 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269118448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to boot into Ubuntu now. < 1269118452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269118826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd boot your ubu- oh. :| < 1269118982 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269119016 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269119058 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269119204 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269119534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't suppose you happen to be on T-76.5753, incidentally? < 1269119553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm not. < 1269119603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why not! < 1269119625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much work as it is. < 1269119639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I had no reason to suspect you were, except that it would've been a Fancy Coincidence. < 1269119713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the © and ® characters in the "special characters" key-list on the N900, but no ™ :/ .. maybe because the first two are in latin-1 and that one is not, but that's not a good reason. < 1269120782 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269121249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, worrying that alise hasn't come back < 1269121569 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ey do this often? < 1269121951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's the Ubuntu, it's razzling-dazzling multimedia interface has locked him into a trance. < 1269121962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269121982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you gaze into GNOME, the gnome also gazes at you. < 1269121992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Your apostrophes are extraneous again < 1269122006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I am being very bad with them today for some reason. < 1269122029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I shall try to avoid all contractions, maybe that will help. < 1269122060 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you avoid possessives as well you should be fine. < 1269123506 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269123510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Le puff, le pant. < 1269123589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Success, evidently. < 1269123595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of a sort... < 1269123630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knew that you needed to do a forced lazy unmount of the partition the system is running on to install Ubuntu? < 1269123816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be part of the built-in intelligence test, to see if you are Worthy of Ubuntu. < 1269123848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ping me. < 1269123851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in highlight. < 1269123903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: < 1269123907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, you're back < 1269123910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, it worked. < 1269123921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering why you took so long to come back < 1269123927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umount -f -l (a mount from the partition the system is running on) < 1269123937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I didn't need to do that to install < 1269123942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did! < 1269123953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I used the command line at all, come to think of it < 1269123962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except afterwards, to compile the wifi card driver < 1269123985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was running the LiveCD from an NTFS partition. < 1269123990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And /cdrom was C:\ whilst / was a subset of C:\. < 1269124003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to force-unmount /cdrom (it refused to do so because the device was being used) and then remount it again before it got to GRUB. < 1269124026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTFS? why? < 1269124050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the Toshiba Satellite, as you know, has no optical drive; and I didn't have any USB sticks handy < 1269124056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269124065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't realise the lack of a USB stick < 1269124085 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, don't you get USB sticks with breakfast cereal nowadays? < 1269124101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269124102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1269124107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs ttf-droid to change the UI font
< 1269124112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit bored of DejaVu Sans. < 1269124118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269124125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What sort of breakfast cereal do you buy? < 1269124128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "I'm a bit bored of", I mean "I think that a really boring font is". < 1269124139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "what's wrong with DejaVu Sans", but boringness is a fine reason < 1269124141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ttf-droid the Android font? < 1269124142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't. Maybe that's the problem. < 1269124157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat oats for breakfast, but persuade someone else to buy them < 1269124165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DejaVu Sans is a bit too wide especially. < 1269124170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1269124176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, if nothing else, not boring. < 1269124184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what; raw oats? < 1269124195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with soya milk < 1269124203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vegan? < 1269124209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lactose intolerant? < 1269124210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just like it? < 1269124212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not vegan, although my breakfast is by chance < 1269124216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lactose intolerance < 1269124221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the Android monospaced font on the N900 in use in the terminal; it's a lot nicer to the Nokia font. Can't really say whether I prefer it over DejaVu Sans Mono, but then again, I'm pretty boring too. < 1269124237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I can have a bit of lactose per week, but not too much < 1269124239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3% [1 ttf-droid 94119/2,771kB 3%] // and it freezes... < 1269124246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I've been drinking soya milk for decades, now < 1269124271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and due to the way acquired tastes work, I now can't stand to drink any other sort of milk < 1269124300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a goat < 1269124422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We have commissioned a new font to be developed both for the logo�s of Ubuntu and Canonical, and for use in the interface. The font will be called Ubuntu, and will be a modern humanist font that is optimised for screen legibility." < 1269124425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's hope that's nice, then. < 1269124596 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is this your first time using linux? < 1269124600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, no. < 1269124605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not by a long shot. < 1269124618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First time installing it on this /machine/, yes... < 1269124626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First time installing it without an optical drive or USB stick... yeah. < 1269124635 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried anything other than ubuntu? < 1269124643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269124684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used Debian, Arch, almost Slackware (its installer hates me; or more probably my systems), even tried getting Mastodon to work... I'd say I've tried stali, but it isn't even out yet. < 1269124694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also tried Mandriva when I was young and naive. < 1269124702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also used FreeBSD. < 1269124719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses Oxford University as his Ubuntu mirror
< 1269124728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it works. < 1269124737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Albeit rather terribly slowly. < 1269124742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slackware (or was that Debian) had a nice, standard "install without any boot media" officially-supported installation strategy, which (I think) involved dd'ing the ISO image on the partition you were going to use for swap, then booting the installer off that (kernel with loadlin, I think; this was for from-DOS installs), and activating swap only after the installation was done. < 1269124759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Oh, I've also used Plan 9 and researched its architecture rather extensively. < 1269124768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is still supported in Slackware. < 1269124778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think the Debian install manual describes how to do the same. < 1269124787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can you still install Slackware from a huge pile of floppies?-) < 1269124800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No, they stopped that a couple releases ago. < 1269124805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1269124810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop using freaky smilies man < 1269124813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? is not eyes < 1269124823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a FREAKY eye. < 1269124844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly floppy distributions were getting a bit ridiculous when the number of floppies goes >20 or so. < 1269124857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download on: < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* DVD < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Floppies < 1269124901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they had a release of that. < 1269124946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win95 OSR 2.1 was a 23-floppy release, it seems. (I have forgotten the exact count.) < 1269124953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26, I mean. < 1269124969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely 26. < 1269124977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually installed it from floppy once. < 1269124987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I know. I was THERE." < 1269124994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it is that none of my installations ever go smoothly? < 1269125116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the best ubuntu mirror :x < 1269125124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need one insanely fast because my connection sucks. < 1269125133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the one in Sweden when there's heavy load < 1269125147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1269125158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, though, I think I'm on the default UK one < 1269125161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be on the menus < 1269125214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries the swedish kernel.org
< 1269125351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah < 1269125545 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirrorservice.org is usually reliable for me < 1269125646 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269125735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269125802 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269125818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269126104 0 :alise_!~alise___@212.183.140.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269126108 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adheration. < 1269126222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the fanclub for Black Adder called? < 1269126224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soya "milk". Milk comes from mammals. Soya isn't one. :-> < 1269126226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adder Nation < 1269126226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1269126263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well, soya milk's the usual name < 1269126266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Milk snobbery? That is a new one. < 1269126352 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :milk comes from coconuts < 1269126406 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooo burn < 1269126498 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are lots of other products that are called by incorrect names. Like various "Creams" (that are really mostly water, soft fat and additives). < 1269126514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :豆乳 comes from beans! < 1269126577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'd say something about prescriptivism, but - < 1269126616 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there are downright oxymorons like "Fat-free mayonnaise". < 1269126661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1269126738 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269126745 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1269126761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise_ < 1269126779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was watching a priest dance an erotic dance < 1269126791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1269126979 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol -- do you know chevally warning < 1269127000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269127006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good theorm :D < 1269127009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :number theory < 1269127022 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol I cannot solve this OR thing :/ < 1269127049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are a few concepts you don't know that it depends on < 1269127088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean really basic concepts, just that you might not realize they're important < 1269127110 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there is some misleading names like "milk drink". That's not Milk (something has been done to it so it can't be sold as milk). Oh and don't search for "soya milk" either, its "soya drink". < 1269127263 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and those various "Creams" fortunately can't be sold as creams. :-) < 1269127433 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what milk of Bosavi woolly rat would taste like... :-) < 1269127486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea was you do U=V OR U=W by either making U match with V or W, for this you'll need to have ...U... = ...V...W..., and then do some magic to make U only hit exactly one of those two. for this you'll need to at least be able to build primitive words out of U's, V's and W's < 1269127576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc i can give more concrete hints as well, or just show you the whole proof; there's a lot more interesting stuff to prove where this came from.... :P < 1269127675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if anyone else is interested, the context is to represent the OR of two equations on words as one) < 1269127803 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127828 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that doesn't make sense :| < 1269127875 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part < 1269127879 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if U only hits one of them what happens to the rest < 1269127899 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good mrr'nng America. < 1269127932 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares? we know it can't hit anything but either of them, if it can hit one of them, the OR is true, if it can't hit either, then it can't hit anything, and the OR is false < 1269127944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269127946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, ubuntu beta < 1269127977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ...U... = ...V...W... < 1269127992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the both sides have to be the same length < 1269128005 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how can we have ... = ...V... OR ... = ...W... < 1269128006 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to find such values for ... that U can only be on top of either V or W, then it can be on one of them iff either of the equations is solvable, we just have to make sure it can't be on top of anything else < 1269128034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err you can just have some new variables in ... that fill the rest < 1269128040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The major changes are in the GNOME version though. < 1269128043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269128053 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269128065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care, I'm happy the upgrade was smooth < 1269128067 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often isn't < 1269128083 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like zUz' = ...V...W..., not that i'm saying the left side can actually be that simple < 1269128124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U can be anything, so there's no way to guarantee U can't be on top of say just the left half of V < 1269128166 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well those should be Z and Z' < 1269128179 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't learn this convention it seems < 1269128181 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269128237 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3oh < 1269128239 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269128281 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i find this trivial because i've seen the solution, but it may have been an open problem at some point, don't really know < 1269128381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Isn't it interesting that one of the best programming /environments/, Mathematica, is paired with one of the worst programming /languages/? < 1269128401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the environment is tained by the language, I think < 1269128403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tainted < 1269128407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I hate the way it does line breaks < 1269128422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, mathematica the IDE suffers from being written in mathematica the lang < 1269128455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1269128457 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the length of the RHS of the solution i have is 38. so you're not going to find it by any sort of brute force < 1269128464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm... but if you don't run into the shittiness of the language, it's very nice < 1269128473 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok haha I'm not going to find it at all < 1269128478 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269128488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION grabs oklokok
< 1269128500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also I think automatic formatting is obviously good but mathematica messes it up < 1269128501 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1269128506 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok I couldn't even find the diophantine representation of complement of powers of 2 < 1269128514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is SO EASY but I didn't get it :| < 1269128518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok, I'm happy with that opinion < 1269128547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1269128547 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the exact problem? < 1269128586 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an equation where the solutions, restricted to X, are exactly N - {2^n | n \in N} < 1269128623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the set {a} of composites: a = xy < 1269128632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's wrong actually < 1269128634 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me correct it < 1269128639 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the set {a} of composites: a = (x+2)(y+2) < 1269128646 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's in natural numbers < 1269128665 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right so solutions restricted to a are exactly composites < 1269128684 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all positive values of a are composites < 1269128699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general idea is D(a,x1,x2,...,xn) = 0 < 1269128710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where D is some polynomial iwht integer coefficents < 1269128720 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i just needed the definition of "diophantine representation" < 1269128784 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm is it "x = (y + 3)(z + 1)"? < 1269128792 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to have some factor that's more than 2 < 1269128797 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some other factors < 1269128802 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost < 1269128807 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269128815 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1269128828 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still do 4*2 < 1269128839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1269128841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who's watched Earth: Final Conflict? < 1269129146 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, the answer is (2y + 3)(z + 1) < 1269129171 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right ofc < 1269129184 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just about to get paper < 1269129189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the complement of this set (powers of two) is diophantine as well < 1269129197 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a hard theorem (takes a whole chapter) < 1269129205 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does sound harder < 1269129228 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the method is great.. he encodes a sequence (fibonacci sequence) and since that has roughly exponential growth, that proves that exponentitation can be defined too :D < 1269129244 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sequence they actually use (to make the proof more direct) isn't fibs though < 1269129272 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have said asymptotic rather than roughly < 1269129275 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "has odd factor" you just write x = odd*any, the other direction doesn't have a simple explanation with existential quantification < 1269129309 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(complement isn't always diophantine, compare with the analogue of recursive languages...:)) < 1269129322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the case of exponentiation it is < 1269129323 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course not < 1269129341 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proving that exponentiation was diophantine was the last piece needed to complete the proof (of hilberts 10th) < 1269129349 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well not sure about of course < 1269129433 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1269129438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right i've actually seen that < 1269129457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen what/? < 1269129540 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponentiation, but i just realized i haven't < 1269129579 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty tough chapter, I haven't really worked through it yet just understood the general idea < 1269129588 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you reading?