< 1268265610 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268265616 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell-oh < 1268265710 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, oh. < 1268266045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell? Ohhhh < 1268266138 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hell < 1268266522 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268266527 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys. < 1268266544 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know anything about Lambda Calculus syntax? < 1268266588 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268266648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's to know? < 1268266659 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/lambda/lambda.html , btw < 1268267235 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know absolutely everything about lambda calculus syntax. < 1268267321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've implemented it as a library in C. < 1268267326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1268267332 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Yes. < 1268267431 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: An expression is either λx.E where x is an identifier and E is an expression, a b where both a and b are expressions, or an identifier (preferably enclosed in a series of lambdas, one of which has this identifier as part of the head of the lambda-term, otherwise the program makes no sense). < 1268267432 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else do you want to know? < 1268267433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's about three things to know :P < 1268267451 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and parenthesisation is allowed, the E in a lambda-expression extends as far as possible, and application is right-associative. < 1268267480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to know a few more things. The reduction rules. < 1268267482 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an identifier is, say, any string of alphanumerics (perhaps disallowing numerics for the first character). Maybe even with some number of primes on the end, etc. < 1268267493 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's not syntax. < 1268267517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he specified syntax. Darn it. < 1268267601 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evaluation of lambda calculus terms: eval _ = _|_. < 1268267606 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my nifty lambda calculus solver btw? :P < 1268267611 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since _|_ -> a, we can show that this is isomorphic to any other evaluation function we might define. < 1268267615 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for turing-completeness! < 1268267633 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What syntax does it accept? < 1268267644 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it doesn't even work in IE8. :-( < 1268267655 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda calculus, with the caveat that you type ^ instead of lambda. < 1268267662 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And IE8??? WTF? < 1268267666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it even works on IE6. < 1268267679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: *Nothing* works on IE6. < 1268267684 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er... IE8 has /superior/ support for web standards. < 1268267689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, nothing sane. < 1268267692 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your "even" is incredibly confusingly misplaced. < 1268267692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268267697 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE8 is actually pretty good for standards. < 1268267706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE8 is finally a tolerable web browser. < 1268267721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not great, but it at least *supports* standards sanely. < 1268267728 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I remember writing that note on the solver :P < 1268267753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: The note is conditional on IE usage, not on a version or a feature. < 1268267754 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hypothesise that perhaps your program has an error, since my estimation of IE8 being able to run sane, valid JavaScript is pretty high. < 1268267759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using IE's conditional commenting thing. < 1268267783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268267785 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but it /literally doesn't work/ in IE8. < 1268267785 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, produces errors. < 1268267790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1268267811 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Length is null or not an object, line 76, char 17. < 1268267812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no IE8 to test on. < 1268267844 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT's in iswhite < 1268267844 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It's < 1268267863 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : var toks = lex(str); < 1268267873 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> That should definitely work. < 1268267915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: Uh, "var toks = lex(str);" isn't in iswhite... < 1268267915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't looka me. < 1268267928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's where 'str' in iswhite is coming from. < 1268267934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268267936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268267952 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimeo.com/4339116 neat < 1268268047 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, .value works. < 1268268114 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet, clearly it does not. < 1268268118 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can you add alert(str) to the start of handleInputPrime? < 1268268121 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, I checked it with alert. < 1268268134 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's getting fucked up between accessing and getting to the parser < 1268268146 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anything before iswhite mutate str? < 1268268147 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: YOU can add alert(str) there, just download it :P < 1268268175 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy. < 1268268183 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs use debugger instead of calling alert() < 1268268240 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is thinking about booting ruby interpreter on bare metal < 1268268261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, a truly worthwhile accomplishment that would be. < 1268268369 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could shoot yourself in the foot by reopening Foot and defining its shot? method to always return true, and it'd only take years to evaluate. < 1268268417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, Ruby. < 1268268422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walking-the-tree semantics. < 1268268434 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be so hard, interpreter depends mainly on libc < 1268268454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well in that case, just link with a stubbed newlib. < 1268268468 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the plan < 1268268470 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fill in the stubbed bits with raw interfaces as you go. < 1268268547 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is truly astonishing. < 1268268554 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%] < 1268268555 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Stubbed bits? Is that like stubbed toes, but even worse because it's on your genitals? < 1268268555 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I agree. < 1268268680 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest as a resolution his immediate termination. < 1268268698 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1268268933 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268269164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Oh, there's no point in arguing against it. < 1268269212 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hell < 1268269296 0 :alise!~95fedb41@gateway/web/freenode/x-aufblcifwcmaouum JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269334 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269337 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268269338 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268269363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/avril1.html < 1268269368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268269402 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, that URL is very obvious. < 1268269434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Theorem at http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/avril1.html.] < 1268269435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268269527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what does that theorem state? < 1268269545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what conjoining with a relation means. < 1268269601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be helpful to realise that the whole thing, although completely valid, makes something in the vicinity of 0 units of sense. < 1268269624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that "quidquid germanus dictum sit, altum viditur" means "everything in German sounds profound". < 1268269645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the First of April is the First of April. < 1268269658 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tinyrb would be better choice < 1268269694 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides that it uses boehm gc, pcre and other external deps < 1268269726 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is this theorem useful chiefly because it doesn't make much sense? < 1268269753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said it was useful? < 1268269899 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep saying the wrong words. < 1268269902 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/useful/interesting/ < 1268270093 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who are you two anyway? < 1268270334 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268270383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268270442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who, me and alise? < 1268270472 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am e; alise is ehird. < 1268270472 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268270474 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/e/me/ < 1268270508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't have told him that I'm me; maybe he thought /two/ people enjoy disparaging him to the max as a sort of idle hobby. < 1268270574 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should check the idents first but soehow i knew that only ehird could use such gay nick while still trying to be poignant :| < 1268270593 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is a girl < 1268270628 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :named elliott < 1268270651 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ellietta < 1268270706 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliotta < 1268270709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically I'm an unnamed gender that is male in every way apart from (a) name and (b) correct pronouns. < 1268270709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I wasn't attempting poignancy. < 1268270740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely remove all my built-in anti-extreme-silliness filters when talking about you. < 1268270744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay is not a gender < 1268270754 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is lesbian a gender? < 1268270755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR IS IT < 1268270786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268270786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but gaylesbian is. < 1268270985 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are automatically disparage all my ideas when i share them < 1268270999 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1268271006 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY? < 1268271024 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHYYYYYYYYYY?!!! < 1268271030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need someone to drive to hopeless self-despising, and you talk about how stupid you are all the time so I figured I could do worse. < 1268271077 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268271089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And we're calling them ideas now? That's a step ;u < 1268271090 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fair < 1268271092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*up.) < 1268271600 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gasp < 1268271617 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this won't compile ;[ < 1268272045 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268272455 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haz a quechion. < 1268272499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you haz several quechions. < 1268272526 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, juzt 1!11!111! quechion. < 1268272550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, I don't speak stupid. < 1268272607 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1268272617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you try speaking smart? < 1268272632 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a name for postfix-notated statements in which the second argument in the notation (last-in argument, if you consider the statement to be a stack) is the first argument in the operation? < 1268272657 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I supposed #esoteric would know just as well as anywhere else. < 1268272676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this: 2 2+ ? < 1268272716 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like... 23* in postfix is 2*3 in infix... < 1268272743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Reverse Polish Notation... < 1268272744 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you look at the statement as a stack, it'd make sense that it'd be written in postfix notation as 32*. < 1268272763 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orly? < 1268272784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're asking for some sort of retarded "RPN but the arguments are flipped" thing. < 1268272792 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, thanks! I just wanted to know if there was a name for it. < 1268272796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* is called "DEAR GOD WHY". < 1268272840 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Polish and Reversed, what can be worse < 1268272844 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawl. < 1268272857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: RPN is quite a nice notation. < 1268272859 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 2/3 is 32/ in RPN right? < 1268272881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268272883 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23/ < 1268272894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you're asking for, then, is "DEAR GOD WHY". < 1268272904 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's just postfix notation. < 1268272907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Do you like making your parsing harder or something? < 1268272929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... AKA reverse polish notation. < 1268272938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you're asking for is a capital offense. < 1268272950 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really depends on your implementation of / < 1268272976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yeah, you could just do (flip (/)) and voila. < 1268272980 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to know, it's because I'm making a constructed (non-computer) language based on a LIFO stack where you have binary and ternary operators, which operate on the prefixed arguments in reverse order. :) < 1268273043 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike me [rides on] < 1268273051 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how stupid is that < 1268273065 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the world of languages, it make sense. < 1268273094 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "X Y *" would become "Push X, Push Y, Pop A, Pop B, Ret A*B". < 1268273099 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1268273133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you are doing makes things harder. < 1268273144 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of language, you're stating the object first, then the subject, then the action. < 1268273271 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So am I looking for...Polish Notation? < 1268273291 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nevermind. < 1268273352 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my mind, making the object closest to the operator the "subject" in the calculation (as opposed to the "object") makes more sense. < 1268273538 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you write your last sentence then? < 1268273627 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1268273630 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawl. < 1268273630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bikes I ride on; the bikes, interesting. Bikes I ride on, interesting; Bikes, interesting, I ride on. < 1268273632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is RPN. < 1268273640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "poetic" English. < 1268273640 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is infix. < 1268273649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268273653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's multiple fixitiesl < 1268273655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fixities. < 1268273662 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It CAN be postfix, but not normally. < 1268273663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You suck. = postfix < 1268273668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck ass. = prefix < 1268273671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You suck ass. = infix < 1268273676 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, point taken. < 1268273683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some are not really any in particular. < 1268273695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "Bikes I ride on" is both valid poetic English and postfix. < 1268273858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268273919 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine mind of sense calculation "subject" in operator object closest making makes in < 1268273937 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually easier to read that right-to-left. < 1268273951 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's in RPN where the operands are reversed. < 1268273988 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please try to synthesize some practical phrase using this rule < 1268274027 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes on tinyrb source < 1268274062 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268274106 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268274135 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The white dog barks at the frightened man", ignoring articles, becomes "man frightened dog white barks". < 1268274146 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The adjectives being unary operators. < 1268274382 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the verbs being binary operators. < 1268274422 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274464 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274589 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, poetic English tends to violate the grammatical laws of spoken English. < 1268274637 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah, "Bikes I ride" is an example of what I'm talking about. < 1268274733 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A postfix notation in which the operands of binary operators are reversed, effectively creating an object-subject-verb structure. < 1268274739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't violate the grammatical laws of English, it merely uses one that hasn't been common for a few centuries. < 1268274749 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's archaic then. < 1268274753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268274766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still parses fine, though. < 1268274781 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering making a language based on lambda calculus. < 1268274784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An example, give us. < 1268274809 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe combinatory logic. < 1268274816 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Lojban, then? < 1268274927 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm not entirely familiar with it, but I know it's hard to to parse mentally. :) < 1268274944 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it have to do with lambda calculus. < 1268274949 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268275064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban is based on predicate logic. < 1268275173 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268275204 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban if pretty much f#$&*d up < 1268275419 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268275532 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Lojban has practically nothing to do with lambda calculus. < 1268275548 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can find a single lambda expression in it anywhere, let me know. < 1268275583 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's alise? < 1268275607 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Network < 1268275637 0 :Network!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest83798 < 1268275668 0 :Guest83798!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268275671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex is attenuating. < 1268275675 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1268275683 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I wrote a SCHEME program today < 1268275705 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How difficult would it be for me to make my own Scheme? < 1268275709 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, as far as I can tell, Lojban is based on predicate logic to about the same extent that English is. < 1268275751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOOOOH < 1268275751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BURN < 1268275758 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has verbs, which act as predicates; nouns, which act as arguments to them; and adjectives and adverbs, which modify those. < 1268275763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, to do what? < 1268275773 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban has brivla, which act as predicates; brivla, which act as arguments to them; and brivla, which modify those. < 1268275786 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It pretty prints MATH < 1268275790 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ASCII < 1268275826 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly feel an urge to capitalize all languages and language-like things. < 1268275873 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban, more like loljban < 1268275874 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1268275906 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardy har har. < 1268275930 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think about it, though, language has a lot to do with mathematical notation. < 1268275943 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because mathematical notation is based on language < 1268275944 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, it'd be more natural to express math in something familiar < 1268275948 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason we write math the way we do. < 1268276010 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO, English makes very little sense as a language, as compared to other languages with more uniform notation. < 1268276066 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postfix/prefix notation in math or language makes more sense. It eliminates the need to declare precedence...although declaring precedence may be easier to read. < 1268276160 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to declare precedence to have infix notation so long as you also have parenthesis. < 1268276211 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about scheme http://vimeo.com/4339116 < 1268276397 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268276652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the human brain simply doesn't like parentheses. < 1268276662 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I love parentheses < 1268276667 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for lispie lisp lisp < 1268276692 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when you're writing a long expression from beginning to end, do you intuitively know how many parentheses to put at the end? < 1268276732 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1268276742 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially due to how I indent < 1268276758 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how many to put at the end when you don't indent that way? < 1268276765 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you use no line breaks at all? < 1268276785 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have a slight feeling, but not definite. < 1268276803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I (think ((the (human brain)) (simply (doesn't (like parentheses < 1268276819 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the human brain doesn't like clusterfucks of anything < 1268276820 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After writing that, I had no idea how many parentheses to put at the end. Six, maybe? < 1268276829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I once had to go back and add a parenthesis. < 1268276927 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the human brain likes /certain/ kinds of clusterfucks ... < 1268276955 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well yes yes < 1268276958 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes of course < 1268277446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, are there any particular standards for what an event framework in Scheme should look like? < 1268277466 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268277512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was thinking, until just a few seconds ago, of having, say, evt-listen take a promise as an argument < 1268277521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But taking in a function makes more sense, really < 1268277659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can have delay simply be a macro written in pure Scheme, right? < 1268277676 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268277967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, my implementation might provide, say, an lle-listen, used like: < 1268278007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lle-listen (lambda (chan name id msg) (ll-owner-say msg))) < 1268278033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of macro would make using lle-listen simpler? < 1268278060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Also, did I use lambda correctly?] < 1268278060 0 :zeotrope_!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1128734078.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268278092 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you used lambda fine < 1268278119 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's hard to say what would make it simpler < 1268278166 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268278179 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aiee, a lambda expression taking arguments that don't appear in the body. < 1268278186 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a goddamn bat < 1268278195 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i work @ night and sleep @ day ;[ < 1268278203 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268278205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But lle-listen tells the implementation to call the function with four arguments < 1268278271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'd have to convince users of a crappy C-like language to actually learn Scheme >.> < 1268278287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hope that my implementation isn't too pathetically slow < 1268278308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you implementing? < 1268278332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme, in the crappy language known as LSL < 1268278350 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, interesting problem here; < 1268278351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1268278362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL has builtin types that act somewhat like objects < 1268278380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "vector literal" is written as <0.0, 1.0, 2.0> for example < 1268278400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if assigned to a variable my_vec, I can use my_vec.x, my_vec.y, my_vec.z < 1268278417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to allow use of vectors in LSL-Scheme, and not have them be confused with Scheme vectors < 1268278457 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar with rotations, but once the vector problem is solved, rotations are close enough < 1268278472 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a thing called a key, but they're pretty much simple strings, so < 1268278677 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :toast < 1268278722 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how I'd implement closures < 1268278754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Represent them as a function pointer and a closed-variable pointer, if possible. < 1268278769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something vaguely similar isn't feasible, good luck. < 1268278772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No such thing as function pointers in LSL < 1268278784 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that matter, no such thing as pointers, perioud < 1268278787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*period < 1268278788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you can't reference a function? < 1268278795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct < 1268278811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, statically, you can call them. llSetPayPrice() works < 1268278825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268278827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can't store a function name or address or anything like that in a variable < 1268278841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are no multidimensional lists < 1268278844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck. < 1268278880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there's a simpler language than Scheme that I can try to implement < 1268278897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. What you are going to do is pretend LSL is an assembly language. < 1268278927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are going to be using a switch-statement-esque thing to implement functions, with a manual call stack. < 1268278945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you will implement data structures by treating an array as memory. < 1268278970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you will do manual garbage collection. < 1268278970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would be a *royal fucking pain*. < 1268279025 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may completely omit call/cc < 1268279055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what it's worth, LSL arrays are heterogeneous [in a statically typed language] < 1268279134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268279980 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can let be written in terms of let*? < 1268280292 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268280511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268281603 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268281841 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268282253 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268282807 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268284030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268284288 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : An interpreter for any language can be written in any TC language (as long as that TC language supports access to external resources that the language being interpreted uses). Is it possible to compile any language to any TC language? < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o.O trivially yes. It can just be an interpreter + the source in the language < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That shouldn't count. < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe you should specify "in polynomial time" < 1268288117 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you mean to rewrite it? < 1268288140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can do interpreter + source < 1268288171 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more direct translations are possible, but, dependending on the similarity of the languages, it may be more or less the same thing < 1268289387 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268291293 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292026 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268292291 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292384 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292730 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268293894 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268294399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268294400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268294760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268295626 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268295793 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268296738 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298034 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096642086.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298116 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovers of stupidly named Turing tarpits! < 1268298160 0 :zeotrope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268298165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I created a new one, in my head, last night < 1268298974 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread that as "lovers of stupidity named Turing tarpits"; thought that a strange name for a group of people who love the stupid. < 1268299129 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1268299200 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-148-4.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268299579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the new one's called Confloddle < 1268299690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based around foldl and cons, which is amazingly enough to be TC by itself, I think < 1268299882 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could I live without you, bash -.- < 1268299940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use zsh and tell it to emulate bash < 1268299994 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've ended up just executing bash in csh, the default shell of a FreeBSD server my school uses. < 1268300061 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, confloddle has functions and pattern-matching? < 1268300072 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least unconsing < 1268300092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, and no < 1268300095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tarpit < 1268300116 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpits still need syntax for expressing things < 1268300121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has functions to the extent that C does, but only so that you can give foldl its argument < 1268300127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't actually execute them < 1268300139 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I get that < 1268300191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, syntax is reverse polish; : is cons, <> is foldl (with the function to fold on going inside the angle brackets; e represents the element, and r the return value from the previous element) < 1268300205 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to think of it in terms of lambda calculus, where a simplified foldl works on Church numerals nicely.. hm. < 1268300214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it always uses the null list as the initial argument < 1268300221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, initial r < 1268300223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the foldl < 1268300362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that, you can start building up a more standard set of primitives < 1268300388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, maps any list to the null list, so you can use, say, e to get a null list, which is how you get started in the first place < 1268300409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : returns the last element of a list, and reverses a list, so you can get the first element of a list with < 1268300716 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do the lists contain again? < 1268301458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other lists < 1268301462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing else for them to contain < 1268301503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't get an infinite regress because the null list is legal < 1268301525 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, to make the lang actually TC, you make the whole program a <> foldl call, and run it on an infinitely long list of null lists < 1268301550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which allows you to get one infinite loop, which is enough < 1268301753 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268302278 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268308681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all I need to do with this lang is spec it, implement it, and compile some TC lang to it < 1268309048 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268310843 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268311190 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268311207 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a functional version of b****fuck? < 1268311445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is the closest analogue. < 1268311666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hardly call Lazy K a functional version of Brainfuck, but I suppose it's an equally evil functional language :P < 1268311899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's the closest analogue, not "a functional Brainfuck". Because of course that makes no sense otherwise. :P < 1268311910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1268312271 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any small languages that are actually enjoyable/useful to code in? Please try to understand the nature of my question before you tell me "i like brainfuck, that's enjoyable to code in" < 1268312281 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about languages that actually can get stuff done. < 1268312329 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like brainfuck, that's enjoyable to code in < 1268313673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Glass is a bit of a get-stuff-done language, and still enjoyable. It might not be quite what you were looking for, though. < 1268313696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pleasant Forthish feel, though I guess that's just the stack. < 1268314098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just look! I just find manual how to login gmail account without ANY < 1268314098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :username!" < 1268314894 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268315221 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268316097 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ MY o's < 1268316273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1268316281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1268316307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268316322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being on just two courses is like being on vacation < 1268316336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: befunge-93 is relatively small and useful < 1268316381 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: meh < 1268316630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit hard to get anything large-scale done in such an unstructured language, though. < 1268316645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in Glass you can LEVERAGE the PRODUCTIVITY of the object-oriented ENTERPRISE paradigm. < 1268316682 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thutu is also capable of having useful programs written in it, as long as they're the right sort of useful programs < 1268316688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's TC, but much better at some things than others < 1268316694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd want to use a wimpmode for things like arithmetic < 1268317092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would using PSOX be considered such a wimpmode? < 1268317192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of a different nature, so I'd say no < 1268317200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a wimpmode, but a wrapper < 1268317211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wimpmode's when you change the syntax or semantics of a lang to make it slightly less awful < 1268317314 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how small one can make a decent forth compiler in C < 1268319150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268321689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268321793 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268322145 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-172.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268322624 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268323624 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268323728 0 :toast!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268324022 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268324633 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268324998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268325265 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268326405 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268326894 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268327812 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268328347 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268329593 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268329751 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-230-128.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268330876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Brainfuck is actually quite useful, so long as you don't care about file descriptors other than 0 and 1. ;) < 1268330903 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah sure it is. < 1268330929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: have you looked at io? < 1268330936 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268330947 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember much from when I looked though < 1268330958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it's enjoyable or if it gets stuff done < 1268330965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's definitely pretty small < 1268330992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are forth and factor and scheme i guess < 1268331010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like r5rs scheme is actually small < 1268331023 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor is just growing and bloating < 1268331031 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is small, scheme is small < 1268331064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor should be renamed product then < 1268331546 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268331560 0 :tuffm!~tuffm@dbs26.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268331578 0 :tuffm!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268331591 0 :tuffm!~tuffm@dbs26.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268331604 0 :tuffm!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268331614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268332200 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268332848 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268333110 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268334079 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1268334358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topology: Proving your childhood dreams impossible since 1736. < 1268334390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did topology do to you now < 1268334394 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1268334411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once a great topologist solved a famous problem by jumping off a bridge < 1268334411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that dream? < 1268334436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i _think_ you may have misremembered that story a tiny bit < 1268334452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my childhood dreams was to come up with a formula that could uniquely represent every line using a pair of real numbers, continuously. < 1268334479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, the topological space of lines is not equivalent to the topological space of points, so my dream is impossible. < 1268334480 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my childhood dreams was to own a tank. < 1268334483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, weird childhood dreams < 1268334517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm are they even the same dimension < 1268334522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268334530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The topological space of lines is the punctured real projective plane. < 1268334543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and you need more than a pair to identify a line in anything more advanced than "normal" 2D spaces < 1268334556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right most lines are defined by where they intersect the x and y axis < 1268334561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a 3-tuple for 3D for example < 1268334578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well weird topological spaces, I have nfc? < 1268334584 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The insight I had is that a line can usually be defined by its closest point to the origin. < 1268334591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\?/./;s/,/?/; < 1268334593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure a 3-tuple is too little for 3D < 1268334593 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All lines can, except for lines passing through the origin. < 1268334604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, two of them I mean < 1268334617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was talking about data type for the two "things" < 1268334622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said two pairs < 1268334633 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flip this space inside-out; the horizon becomes a missing point, and the origin becomes the horizon. < 1268334640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I pointed out you need something like two 3-tuples for 3D < 1268334650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 3-tuple is not a pair < 1268334666 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did mean lines in 2D Euclidean space. < 1268334692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no he said two real numbers < 1268334699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, given two points they represent exactly one line in 2D Euclidean space < 1268334710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that is not unique < 1268334716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh I read it as "two pairs" < 1268334728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if you mean that there is more than one way to represent the same line: true < 1268334759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and two real numbers work for almost every line, but you cannot make it work uniquely and continuously < 1268334767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(homeomorphically) < 1268334768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, you could use y=kx+m as long as the line in question is not vertical < 1268334793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you could use x=m < 1268334797 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, there are lots of sets of lines that you can do this for. < 1268334805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just can't do it for all of them. < 1268334806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah that's one option. no matter what you do you'll either leave out something or duplicate something < 1268334830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so provide two variants, one for almost all, and then a variant for the one you can't cover < 1268334845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but that doesn't become continuous < 1268334847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to tell the truth, I fail to see the issue with having to use two different variants < 1268334900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no "issue" with it. It's just that the problem I posed is to do it continuously. < 1268334902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what exactly do you mean with continuous here? The functions in question are each continuous (well, I'm not sure about x=m, but I can't see why it shouldn't be, since here you have x as a function of y...) < 1268334912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must mean something else < 1268334952 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, if you're representing lines as pairs of real numbers, "continuous" means that as you move the line around in a continuous manner, the real numbers change in a continuous manner, and vice versa. < 1268334960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268334970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, what about using point + vector then? < 1268334980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and putting some restrictions on where you can place the point < 1268335010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try it; there's no way you'll get it down to two points, give a unique representation for every line, and be continuous. < 1268335021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as "if it ever intersects with the y axis, that point should be the base point, otherwise the point where it intersects with the x axis should be used" < 1268335032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268335038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use what I said, but then not a vector < 1268335046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead use the dx/dy value < 1268335073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the angle compared to the x axis in radians < 1268335090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, but then you need to tell if it is the x or the y axis that is the base, don't you? < 1268335095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can encode that in the angle < 1268335100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can < 1268335113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is though, you can't uniquely, continuously represent angles. < 1268335118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the angle is pi/2 then it passes the x axis < 1268335134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh well I guess that either it isn't unique or it jumps, true < 1268335140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, but what about dx/dy? < 1268335220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, how are you going to make that work for vertical lines? < 1268335236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you accept using R extended with infinity? < 1268335247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; that's a different problem. < 1268335253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1268335277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, actually it is simple, for vertical line it reduces to a single number < 1268335297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the problem says you have to give a pair of numbers. < 1268335334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1268335354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee. I think the topological space of lines is a Mobius strip. < 1268335371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are a million (understatement) ways of hacking around this. there is however no continuous, bijective mapping from R^2 to the space of lines in R^2. < 1268335436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the inverse is automatically continuous so it would have to be a homeomorphism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariance_of_domain) < 1268335439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is trivial if you only have positive x and y values < 1268335455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and may have negative values in the pair < 1268335499 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, I never said that every pair of real numbers must represent a line, only vice versa. < 1268335508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you can represent which axis it passes as a single number, + for y and - for x, and abs(that value) is where along said axis < 1268335509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1268335529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can select some suitable way to represent the direction < 1268335545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it wouldn't be continuous... < 1268335570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: there are a million (understatement) ways of hacking around this. there is however no continuous, bijective mapping from R^2 to the space of lines in R^2. <-- has this been proven? < 1268335573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. If you ignore all lines that don't pass through the firt quadrant, you can do it easily. < 1268335601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume uorygl discovered the theorem and that's what started it. i don't recall it myself. < 1268335613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*started this discussion. < 1268335620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well yes I gave an idea for it above, but not sure how to represent the direction of said line in a continuous way < 1268335646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, it would run into issues for lines crossing both x and y axis in said quadrant < 1268335658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could give one preference, but then it would jump < 1268335738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think the topological space of lines can be represented more elegantly as a Mobius strip. < 1268335753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects this is possible with complex numbers btw < 1268335758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not certain < 1268335770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how do you mean? < 1268335772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topologically, a complex number is just a pair of real numbers. < 1268335810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well yes, but don't forget that you get 4 numbers that way < 1268335815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, your angle around the Mobius strip is the angle of the line; rotating the line by 180 degrees takes you all the way around the strip. < 1268335827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, actually, a 3-tuple or a complex number and a real one might be enough < 1268335837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then your distance above the Mobius strip's center line is your distance above the origin. < 1268335858 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can s/above/to the right of/ as necessary. < 1268335881 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think you'll agree that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat. < 1268335883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm btw < 1268335905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinitely long and infinitely wide Mobius strip sounds interesting < 1268335909 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually proving that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat is probably really difficult... < 1268335911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cannot recall the technical name for the space of lines in R^2 < 1268335929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what does it mean for a circle to be infinitely long? < 1268335943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, I'm not a topologist, I don't know < 1268335947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I leave it to them to work it out < 1268335972 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it doesn't need to be infinitely wide; the entire real line can be compressed continuously into an interval line (0,1). < 1268335982 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what the atan and tanh functions do. < 1268335994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And I think you'll agree that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat. <-- I disagree < 1268336003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you didn't give any surface < 1268336010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could lie flat on another Mobius strip < 1268336014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a suitable size < 1268336019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, it's impossible to lie it flat on a plane. < 1268336040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well that is a completely different statement :P < 1268336087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I have to say I never, ever, used (sin|cos|tan)h < 1268336098 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I don't think it's possible to lie one Mobius strip flat onto another. < 1268336102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? < 1268336107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets some paper < 1268336133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: identity function < 1268336150 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's impossible to place two physical objects in the same place. < 1268336157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait hm < 1268336167 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One strip would end up on one side, the other strip would end up on the other side. < 1268336172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's only one side, so that doesn't work. < 1268336174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you cannot do it in R^3 < 1268336215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh *physical* one? < 1268336237 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physical ones, yeah. < 1268336257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then it could lie flat on some weird 4D surface probably < 1268336308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an object of suitable shape in 3D. though probably that object would need to be assembled around said Möbius strip < 1268336333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.55.9544 < 1268336357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it cannot be that which is the actual theorem of that paper... far too new < 1268336362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also I think Mobius is actually an incorrect name for it. Möbius seems to be what wikipedia uses, and also is what is used in Sweden for it < 1268336418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the abstract sort of implies that that is indeed a new theorem. < 1268336429 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it says that it has implications. < 1268336440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but that is ridiculous < 1268336448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's far too simple to be new < 1268336473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implications could be new though < 1268336479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go around asking my professors how long it's been known that the space of lines in R^2 is isomorphic to the Mobius strip. :P < 1268336504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isomorphy seems weird to me < 1268336533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it's well-known. in fact i'm sure i've seen a name for that space but i cannot remember it < 1268336544 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that space is called the Mobius strip. < 1268336545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1268336556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats uorygl -----### < 1268336573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just the topological space, silly < 1268336599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, now I wonder about the space of planes in R^3. < 1268336635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, a point and a normal vector to the plane works < 1268336647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a point and two vectors < 1268336657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i'm sure those were just special cases of the notation i'm looking for :( < 1268336691 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the space of planes in R^3 forms a sort of analogue to the Mobius strip. < 1268336757 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you call a topological space that looks locally like a product space? < 1268336780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what about a Möbius strip but with one of the ends in the "join" rotated 180 degrees? No not in the direction where you get a "normal" circle of paper. I mean rotate with the overlapping ends laying flat on top of each other < 1268336811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one direction you get a trivial loop, but the other direction looks quite interesting < 1268336832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like you mean a two-twist Mobius strip. < 1268336844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you rotate a full 360 degrees you get a two-twist one yeah < 1268336848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268336876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1268336879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be right < 1268336886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: fiber < 1268336895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, right, a fiber bundle. < 1268336921 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Mobius strip is a "fiber product" of a real projective line and a line segment. < 1268336931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't something weird supposed to happen if you cut a Möbius strip along the middle iirc? < 1268336935 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, this 3D Mobius strip would be a fiber product of the real projective plane and a line segment. < 1268336947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't check since I can't locate any scissors atm < 1268336965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a two-twist mobius strip is topologically identical to a non-twisted one, it's just the embedding into 3D space which is different < 1268336973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do that, I think you get an ordinary, untwisted strip, except maybe entangled with itself in some strange way. < 1268336987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you get something topologically identical to an ordinary strip. < 1268337040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes you get a single strip, with a few twists it seems < 1268337053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268337056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems one sided < 1268337071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least my thumb following it passed both sides of the joined up point < 1268337078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: incidentally your space of planes in R^3 etc. is obviously some kind of fibre bundle in the same way - just take the plane and _translate_ it to origo to get a map onto something projective < 1268337088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1268337098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot there are now two joined up points < 1268337106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*origin < 1268337133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely two-sided. < 1268337185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you cut this one one in half you seem to get two loops that are entangled with each other < 1268337205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems fairly interesting < 1268337240 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268337245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone care to explain why these things happen < 1268337246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268337260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way that doesn't require me to learn topology first < 1268337290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine coloring the paper strip red and blue... < 1268337297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1268337302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two sided one? < 1268337308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any paper strip. < 1268337311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that on each side, it's red on one half and blue on the other half, and the dividing line runs down the strip. < 1268337317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268337320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268337326 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when you flip the paper strip over, the colors don't switch places. < 1268337343 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no matter how you twist this strip of paper before joining it, the colors match. < 1268337359 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then if you cut down the dividing line, you always end up with something that's red on one side and blue on the other. < 1268337362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh, is that physically possible? < 1268337391 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physically possible to color it that way? < 1268337398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268337411 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, as long as the colors go on top of the paper, not in it. < 1268337416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use paint, not dye. < 1268337421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume not wrt. that " So no matter how you twist this strip of paper before joining it, the colors match." < 1268337437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you twist it half a turn that won't work would it? < 1268337448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268337451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still match if you twist it 180 degrees. < 1268337463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the paper is differently colored on each side < 1268337485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to make such a strip of paper and then make a video. < 1268337494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah true < 1268337496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does work < 1268337510 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268337514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i was confused like you for a moment there < 1268337520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, how do we go on from there < 1268337527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the original question I asked < 1268337541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1268337568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now what happens when you cut that strip along the dividing line? < 1268337613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you suddenly have a strip with consistent coloring on each side - so it must be a two-sided strip < 1268337614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if joined together as a möbius one, then it would end up as a two sided double twisted thingy I assume? < 1268337622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure where the colours would end up < 1268337650 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The colors would end up one on one side, the other on the other side. :P < 1268337659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ah < 1268337675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then what about that new one going to two intertwinned loops? < 1268337687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was what I was actually asking about < 1268337695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the one sided -> two sided < 1268337702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the next "transformation" < 1268337766 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colors don't help you determine whether the loops are intertwined or not. < 1268337812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well then what does < 1268337813 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337831 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes knot theory :D < 1268337858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which sounds like topology on steroids. < 1268337910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology contains things far weirded than knots < 1268337914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weirder < 1268337934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what use is this btw? I mean, outside mathematics < 1268337939 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Stuff like knot theory is kind of difficult, because if you're inside a knot, you can't tell that you're inside a knot. < 1268337957 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes, math, though interesting, is absolutely useless. < 1268337974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the real world, you sometimes need to embed one space into another. < 1268337988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, examples? < 1268338007 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose you have a circuit shaped like a Mobius strip, and you have to make it into a two-dimensional integrated circuit. < 1268338020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing that vaguely rings a bell with knots is string theory, which doesn't exactly help < 1268338021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's shaped like a torus. < 1268338026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many layers do you need? < 1268338037 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1268338044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268338050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a Mobius strip, you need two layers; with a torus, you need four; with a just plain strip, you only need one. < 1268338070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh right, but that's more a planar graph thing than knot theory isn't it < 1268338087 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an interesting and strange isomorphism between knot diagrams and circuit diagrams. < 1268338090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I never seen anyone beginning by designing an IC circuit on anything but a flat surface, but I'm no expert in that field < 1268338120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe those are deeply connected fields, sounds sensible actually < 1268338122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sometimes, you want to build a circuit reflecting an existing topological space, like if you want to build a circuit for cellular automata. < 1268338162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268338193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: why would you need four with a torus, don't you just take one layer with the upper half and one with the lower half < 1268338197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm not sure things like game of life on a torus would count as a "real world application" :P < 1268338212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, quite right. < 1268338234 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this isomorphism. Your knot diagram's edges rope off regions; the regions we're interested are the ones where to get to the outside of the knot diagram, you need to cross an odd number of edges. < 1268338239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about the join in the other direction? < 1268338255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as in, what you said works for a tube, but I'm not sure about a torus < 1268338270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These regions become nodes in the circuit diagram. Wherever there's a crossing, two of these regions meet; the crossing becomes a resistor connecting the two nodes. < 1268338277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you use an actual circular arrangement? < 1268338283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, of what? < 1268338286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the crossing goes one way, it's a one-ohm resistor; if it goes the other way, it's a negative-one-ohm resistor. < 1268338290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of each half < 1268338291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268338295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268338297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work < 1268338306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be an awesome cpu < 1268338311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was circular < 1268338321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And strangely, all the Redemeister moves, the things you can do to a knot diagram that leave it unchanged, are also things that leave the circuit essentially unchanged. < 1268338334 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268338336 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, this is simply a massive coincidence. < 1268338337 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely? < 1268338339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, !!!! resistors don't have directions < 1268338340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1268338345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they work the same both ways < 1268338355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike, say, a transistor < 1268338366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: what do you need for a klein bottle? >:) < 1268338368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has more than two legs) < 1268338368 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let me make some ASCII art illustrating this. < 1268338422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, look, I'm currently studying AC electric theory at university. Did DC a month back or so. And if there is one thing I'm certain of, it is that resistors work the same *in both directions* < 1268338441 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. And crossings look the same in both directions. < 1268338471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, sure, and you can't get negative resistance except by using some arrangement of transistors or such to "emulate" that < 1268338494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1268338509 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, negative resistors are mathematically well-defined. < 1268338529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The paste, if you care for it: http://pastebin.ca/1834339 < 1268338549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, sure, but they don't actually make any physical sense < 1268338573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's math! It doesn't need to make sense! < 1268338596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and sure, if you rotate it 180 degrees, it looks the same except you now have a reverse B and a "forall" symbol < 1268338606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about it? < 1268338609 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268338620 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a neat isomorphism. < 1268338621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, where does the negative one ohm come into it < 1268338643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if the crossing goes the other way, it's a negative resistor. < 1268338651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also how exactly is it isomorphic to a 1 ohm resistor? < 1268338678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's isomorphic to a 1-ohm resistor because the isomorphism maps it onto a 1-ohm resistor. < 1268338690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and what is that isomorphism? < 1268338691 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bijection is an isomorphism because knot diagrams and these circuits obey the same laws. < 1268338703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268338729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, so where are the poles in that ascii art? < 1268338741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the ends of the lines? if so, why 4? < 1268338793 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The poles are the regions A and B. < 1268338852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1268338878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems fairly complex < 1268338907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and how do you represent a capacitor of 0.1 µF in that sort of thingy? < 1268338919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo typos) < 1268338940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By understanding this much better than I do. < 1268338945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268338949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good answer I guess < 1268338952 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268338962 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, Wareya. < 1268338966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what about something simpler like a 1.25 Ohm resistance? < 1268339254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, are there matrices in more than 2 dimensions? I can't see why not, but I have never seen any such < 1268339269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use 4 parallel copies of 5 serially connected 1 Ohm resistors. maybe. < 1268339296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm there should be resistances that you can't reach by doing such operations < 1268339301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about pi Ohm for example < 1268339313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's idea is what I would have said. < 1268339327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um do you consider an n by n matrix as 2- or n-dimensional? < 1268339354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well in this case as 2D. Since you can locate a given number in it by taking column and row numbers < 1268339362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is analogous to x and y coordinate < 1268339370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case you probably want to look at tensors < 1268339398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, I tried making the knot diagram corresponding to three parallel copies of three serially connected one-ohm resistors, and I'm pretty sure the result was not equivalent to simply a one-ohm resistor. < 1268339406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah, I heard that word before. Tell me, does it extend to n dimensions for any n in R, or just to some boring fixed number n? < 1268339453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: any natural number n. also you don't call it dimensions, that's for the underlying space (i.e. n in n by n) < 1268339458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1268339462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah I see < 1268339503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, maybe you did the connection of those in the wrong way? < 1268339548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the term used seems to be "order" < 1268339558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, silly mathematicans ;P < 1268339666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume you can only reach rational resistances that way, at least by combining serial and parallel separately (serial adds the resistances and parallel adds their inverses iirc) < 1268339671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty simple and regular. < 1268339688 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't think I make a mistake. < 1268339710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the formula is 1/R_new = 1/R_1 + 1/R_2 + ... + 1/R_n < 1268339727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's what i _said_ isn't it < 1268339732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so yes, add their inverses, *plus* then invert that < 1268339758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the sum of their inverses is 1/R_new after all < 1268339772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um right that may have been unclear < 1268339790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm tempted to say: s/unclear/forgotten/ < 1268339801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1268339809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268339854 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serial adds the resistances to get the new resistance. Paralle adds their inverses to get the new inverse. < 1268339855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it 1/A = 1/B + 1/C? < 1268339898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well, you can derive that using Ohm's law and some basic knowledge of how circuits work. < 1268339912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the interesting thing is that if you have a sinus formed alternating current, and write capacitances and inductances as specific complex values you can calculate as if it was all direct current < 1268339915 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do circuits work < 1268339927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, by suitably advanced magic < 1268339933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I mean technology of course ;P < 1268339955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it has to do in my intuition with how resistance is the quotient of voltage and current, and serial vs. parallel adds voltage and current respectively < 1268339985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does parallel add current? < 1268339989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the former is called Ohm's law < 1268339996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, err what? < 1268340021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you mean "serial vs. parallel adds voltage and current respectively" < 1268340023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, every pole has a voltage, and every component has a current, and the currents in and out of a pole must add up to the same thing, and every component has an equation of some sort determining the relation between voltage and current. < 1268340030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unable to decode that in a sensible way < 1268340035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for a fixed voltage across, you get the current flowing across _each_ branch for that branch < 1268340054 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you place two components in parallel, the voltage across the entire group is equal to the voltage across each component. < 1268340073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the current across the entire group is equal to the sum of the currents across each component. < 1268340078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1268340096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what uorygl said was a lot more sensible. < 1268340097 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to know how analog circuits work, this applet makes it crystal clear: http://falstad.com/circuit/ < 1268340123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, think of parallel it as opening more roads for the traffic to drive along to the same goal < 1268340128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it// < 1268340151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well he explained why it's the case... < 1268340181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, your statement seemed somewhat confused. As in what do you mean "serial adds voltage"? < 1268340182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i've never learned alternating current < 1268340191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does that even mean < 1268340208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the potential between the ends is the sum of the potentials across each step < 1268340209 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, do you know what he meant by "parallel adds current"? < 1268340219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh it is fun. You just write currents and voltages on polar form, plus what I said above for the components, and calculate the same < 1268340239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just pick the pieces back to the non-complex form for the final result < 1268340244 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you place two components in series, the current through the entire group is equal to the current through each component, and the voltage across the entire gruop is equal to the sum of the voltages across each component. < 1268340252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: the potential between the ends is the sum of the potentials across each step <-- well sure < 1268340270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: well, do you know what he meant by "parallel adds current"? <-- I can have a guess, but it isn't how I would express it. < 1268340315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I know how to do the math, I just don't think his way of describing the operations made a lot of sense < 1268340335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent I was unable to decode what operation he meant < 1268340398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1268340411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatEVER < 1268340424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, plus I'm somewhat challenged when it comes to the English terms for these things. The course is in Swedish < 1268340503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current = strøm, voltage/potential = spenning, if the norwegian terms help < 1268340522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that doesn't work as we have voltage = spänning potential = potential < 1268340545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and current = ström I know < 1268340546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm a little vague on the difference between those two < 1268340553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also what about impedans? < 1268340555 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268340563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that impedance < 1268340571 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly wonder why you guys are speaking English. :P < 1268340572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks on wikipedia < 1268340581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? < 1268340584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's impedans in norwegian too < 1268340597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, seems it is impedance from a quick look at wikipedia < 1268340608 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be neat if you spoke Norwegian and Swedish and I tried to follow along. < 1268340622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i recall my dad using that word (he's an electrical engineer) < 1268340641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well we would have some issues between ourselves. While the languages are similar, they are not that close < 1268340647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some confusion would certainly arise < 1268340652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nei det ville det ikke < 1268340669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that if directly translated to Swedish is somewhat silly < 1268340682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a start what on earth does "det" refer to in there? < 1268340690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one that is < 1268340692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also the first < 1268340712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the "It" of uorygl's sentence < 1268340739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a literal translation from me would be: "no that want that not", an "idiomatic if it was Swedish" would be "no it won't it" or such. < 1268340745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, < 1268340754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you could add "være" at the end for better precision < 1268340769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think your "det" can be used somewhat differently than "det" in Swedish perhaps? < 1268340816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't know anything about that. it corresponds to both "it" and "there (is)" in english though, though swedish was the same < 1268340819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thought < 1268340822 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. Everyone, just learn Spanish. :P < 1268340824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, please give an English idiomatic translation of the whole thing, because I haven't figured it out < 1268340829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, agreed! < 1268340835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "No, it wouldn't be" < 1268340836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268340840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, I don't have a Swedish keyboard installed. < 1268340841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you said Swedish < 1268340843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Spanish < 1268340846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blerh < 1268340848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh* < 1268340853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah... < 1268340862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "nej, det skulle det inte vara" < 1268340878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so "det" wasn't the problem actually? < 1268340880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so the issue is "ville" which means "want" but not "would" < 1268340900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, vill is the base form rather) < 1268340905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :börk < 1268340906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i knew that about swedish, i think < 1268340927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which mean what you said didn't make a lot of sense to me. I was wondering what was wanting what < 1268340932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perhaps for a bday present?) < 1268340963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ville/skulle is a little awkward to translate i guess < 1268340964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you know, that is so completely un-Swedish as you can get, to a Swede that is < 1268341069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the word doesn't map 1:1 to English would for all forms, as in, the ground form "ska" maps to ~will (as in "foo will turn into bar" or whatever, not as in "last will") < 1268341112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"last will" seems to make more sense if you set in the Swedish "vill", so it turns into "last want" < 1268341125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it is some old form of a word still left in that phrase or such? < 1268341127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :siste vilje < 1268341168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in norwegian) < 1268341181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yep similar in Swedish. though if it is the legal document you mean it would be "testamente" < 1268341193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268341210 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to speak Norwegian, but as the only words I know are "skillingsbolle" and "smultring", I can't. < 1268341211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"last will and testament" < 1268341222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: at least you won't starve < 1268341230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what is the first? < 1268341240 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cinnamon roll. < 1268341253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter I can guess, if it is actually sv:"smultron"? (not sure if that is spelled with o or å though) < 1268341262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would call that kanelbolle... < 1268341272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh kanelbulle < 1268341286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are your bullar spheres or what? < 1268341287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1268341290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sw en smultron < 1268341292 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't ask me why Wikipedia calls it a skillingsbolle. < 1268341297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: approximately < 1268341304 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smultron < 1268341305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh it's probably called that too < 1268341319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268341325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en smultron < 1268341327 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strawberries < 1268341334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1268341335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, since sv:boll = en:ball. thus "kanelbolle" sounds like a ball of kanel to me < 1268341351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _definitely_ not smultron, then (would be "jordbær") < 1268341351 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary says that smultringer are called "munk" in Swedish. < 1268341360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then what is "smultring" then? < 1268341362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "flottyr-ring" or "ringmunk" or something. < 1268341379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also strawberries seems wrong... < 1268341380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munk_%28bakverk%29 < 1268341388 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those munkar look delicious. < 1268341400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: plain donuts, was the conclusion of our discussion here < 1268341407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smultron < 1268341416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are *not* strawberries, but a related thingy < 1268341437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:strawberry = sv:jordgubbe < 1268341439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are strawberries < 1268341443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not the same kind < 1268341455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268341457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1268341463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no specialist on that sort of thing < 1268341464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:strawberry = fi:mansikka, sv:smultron = fi:metsämansikka < 1268341467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: markjordbær vs. jordbær in norwegian < 1268341495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the former seems somewhat silly. "ground earth berries" and the latter "earth berries"? < 1268341524 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish Wiktionary says that smultron are Fragaria vesca, which English Wikipedia says are commonly known as woodland strawberries. < 1268341530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Wiktionary/Wikipedia/ < 1268341537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why not "ground earth zero-altitude berries" next < 1268341552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well "mark" here sounds me like it means "in the wild" in this case < 1268341563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, aha < 1268341584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are no such connotations of that word in Swedish < 1268341589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lowly ground earth dirt berries! < 1268341595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the other kind is a farmed variety, which iirc is a hybrid of markjordbær with an american relative... < 1268341602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably it would be called "vilda &" or "vild&" or such < 1268341610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where & as in sed) < 1268341619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think i heard that mentioned on television recently) < 1268341633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which must mean christmas, since that was last i watched tv < 1268341657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wiktionary says that smultringer are called "munk" in Swedish. <-- sv:munk is *also* en:monk < 1268341659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to confuse things < 1268341671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yum, monks. < 1268341691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you google translate a Swedish article about either and happen to get some of the other things you now know the cause < 1268341740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munk_%28olika_betydelser%29 <-- apparently it can also be something related to hydrology < 1268341745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what < 1268341814 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Munk är inom hydrologin en regleranordning för att kunna reglera inloppet eller utloppet till en damm. < 1268341818 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monk is in hydrology a regulated regime to regulate the inlet or outlet to a pond. < 1268341826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait wikipedia disagrees with me < 1268341835 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A regulated regime. < 1268341840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The garden strawberry was first bred in Brittany, France in 1740 via a cross of Fragaria virginiana from eastern North America , which was noted for its flavor, and Fragaria chiloensis from Chile and Argentina brought by Amédée-François Frézier, which was noted for its large size." < 1268341844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, mistranslation < 1268341855 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Ursprungligen betecknar ordet munk ett vertikalt rör, där vatten kan strömma in över kanten när vattenytan i dammen överstiger kantens höjd. < 1268341860 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Originally, the word denotes a monk, a vertical pipe, where water can flow onto the top when the water in the pond exceeds the edge height. < 1268341868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it would be "regulation apparatus" < 1268341873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some such < 1268341873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or with my recollection, rather. anyway neither ancestor was actually markjordbær then < 1268341961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely afaik in norwegian "munk" means only the same as english "monk" < 1268341971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268341977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard any of the other meanings < 1268342017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, flottyr-ring works in Swedish too (for the non-monk-or-hydrology type of munk that is) < 1268342023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268342027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drop that - < 1268342043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems out of place < 1268342075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what is your native language then? < 1268342088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh sw:munk as bakery is named for the monk hairstyle :D < 1268342097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1268342099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it < 1268342104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also: sv not sw < 1268342112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah < 1268342117 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English. < 1268342145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, then I feel sorry that you can't almost freely concatenate words to form new longer ones! < 1268342151 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268342156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with a well defined meaning of course) < 1268342160 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can do that; it's just that we still put spaces in between. < 1268342175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, then it isn't true concatenation < 1268342178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we say "Grand Valley State University Honors College application" instead of "Grandvalleystateuniversityhonorscollegeapplication". < 1268342179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't count < 1268342202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we need to add a few binding letters in there in Swedish between some of them < 1268342214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will take a few seconds to translate that < 1268342242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ordsammensetningsumulighetssorg < 1268342269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "umulighet"? < 1268342275 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en sv grand valley state university honors college application < 1268342277 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grand Valley State University utmärkelser högskola ansökan < 1268342284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omöjlighet? < 1268342289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1268342295 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Google knows what Grand Valley State University is. < 1268342307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I'm unable to translate "collage" < 1268342314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anything except "universitet" < 1268342318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which we already have < 1268342327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, a college is a sub-unit of a university. < 1268342333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stordalgångslänsuniversitetshedersansökan < 1268342336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well < 1268342342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state had to be translated to län < 1268342347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the not exactly < 1268342354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't have a real word for an US state < 1268342371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, stat, which is also a synonym to land (country) < 1268342387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "state university" has a special meaning. < 1268342389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Swedish län is *way* smaller than a US state < 1268342396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? well then I have no clue < 1268342416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A state university is a public university funded by an individual state. < 1268342429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Apparently Google knows what Grand Valley State University is. <-- no it doesn't since it didn't translate it < 1268342435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it is a name then I guess it does < 1268342465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and it's "högskola" for "college" is not a sub-unit of a university < 1268342475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is closer to what in UK I think used to be called a polytechnic < 1268342481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268342500 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did translate it. It translated it from "grand valley state university" to "Grand Valley State University". < 1268342512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, which makes no sense in Swedish < 1268342518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you don't do caps in the names like that < 1268342525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's an English name. < 1268342531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we don't have title case you see < 1268342537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Grand Valley State University (GVSU) er et universitet med hovedbase i Allendale i Michigan i Amerikas forente stater." < 1268342551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that was norwegian < 1268342555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1268342556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps Danish < 1268342558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really tell < 1268342560 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norwegian. < 1268342577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268342579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think danish would be "forenede" < 1268342583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1268342585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :förenta in Swedish < 1268342593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "er et" would be "är ett" < 1268342603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hovedbase would be "huvudbas" < 1268342610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would sound awkward in that context < 1268342620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like some military main base or such < 1268342624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure there would be any other differences between danish and norwegian there < 1268342663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would write it in a different way to get idiomatic Swedish < 1268342686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :danish wikipedia has no article on GVSU < 1268342691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably instead of "with main base in" it would be like "located in" < 1268342737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um main base would imply there could be other bases elsewhere < 1268342750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me < 1268342765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, perhaps, well I would check if there was, and then write something that fitted that < 1268342781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I guess the more idiomatic English term would be HQ < 1268342794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the english article uses "located" :D < 1268342800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me of RTS < 1268342829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GVSU does indeed have multiple campuses. < 1268342846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main one is in Allendale, there's another one in downtown Grand Rapids, and there are a couple of tiny ones in other places. < 1268342859 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268342925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, "with campus in Allendale, foo, bar and so on", with the Swedish translation for "and so on" sounding a lot better in the context than it does in English < 1268342944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"med flera" (literally: with more) < 1268342949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no that isn't a literal translation < 1268342964 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we would tend to use "and others". < 1268342967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, English doesn't have different words for mer and fler does it? < 1268342976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, closer to the Swedish yeah < 1268342977 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With campuses in Allendale, Grand Rapids, Holland and others. < 1268342992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, shows I'm not a native speaker, not thinking of that English way < 1268343004 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Holland campus is really inconvenient because it's in a different continent. < 1268343007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think not, it has "less" vs. "fewer" but not the other way iirc < 1268343013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268343031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather unsymmetrical when you think about it < 1268343038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they speak Dutch on that campus. < 1268343040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, don't you agree? < 1268343047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really have no idea why GVSU has a campus there. < 1268343055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1268343056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I was just about to ask you heh < 1268343080 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I'm entirely kidding, and Holland is actually a city in Michigan. < 1268343091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, err? really? < 1268343104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is confusing < 1268343105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a city called Holland, Michigan, yes. < 1268343111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paris, Texas < 1268343118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should anyone in Michigan actually *want* to travel to the real Holland < 1268343128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, when ordering tickets < 1268343131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once, before I knew about it, my mom said, "Bye! I'm going to Holland!", and I thought, "Wait, what?" < 1268343136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if the city also have an airfield < 1268343166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it quite a common thing for US people to do to name their cities and such after "real" places? < 1268343183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why did you have to put quotes around real there? < 1268343187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ruined the thing < 1268343218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice it whenever I go to maps.google.com and type in a city without bothering to scroll away from the default US-centered start view; then it zooms to somewhere in Texas or whatever. < 1268343226 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Azeroth, California < 1268343233 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1268343243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Azeroth? < 1268343250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds somewhat familar < 1268343255 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World of Warcraft. < 1268343263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I don't play that < 1268343264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just Warcraft. < 1268343265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can't be < 1268343268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that < 1268343287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that Holland, Michigan has two airports but no commercial flights. < 1268343298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two!? < 1268343306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of metropol is that? < 1268343325 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Population 35,000. < 1268343332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is just weird < 1268343340 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're the sort of airport that consists of a hanger and a runway. < 1268343344 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/e/a/ < 1268343346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so < 1268343354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a runway takes a lot of space < 1268343362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A road also takes a lot of space. < 1268343367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, now that I went to test that maps.google.com, it seems to jump to the actual places I was actually looking for. Maybe they've changed that a bit. < 1268343373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually 1 km x 20 m or so at least < 1268343374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Michigan has plenty of rural space to spare. < 1268343412 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that 20 meters for the runway itself or also for the surrounding cleared area? < 1268343458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268343461 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we have some roads that are about 20 meters wide. < 1268343467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, of it itself, but this varies widely with the intended use of the runway < 1268343470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some can be much wider < 1268343472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The local "small" airport here in Helsinki seems to have runways of approximately that width. < 1268343473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and much longer < 1268343486 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Based on Google's satellite imagery.) < 1268343515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider KEDW, that has some *very* wide runways < 1268343521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't know exact values) < 1268343541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "main" (Helsinki-Vantaa) airport runway width, eyeballing from that satellite photo, seems to be around 50 m. < 1268343551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well http://www.airnav.com/airport/KEDW gives 4R/22L as 91 meters wide < 1268343557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very wide < 1268343574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is over 4.5 km long that one < 1268343592 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, I can't check my eyeball measurements, that site seems rather US-centric. < 1268343609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the ICAO code for it? < 1268343639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well? < 1268343657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could probably look it up with relative ease if I can just get the ICAO code for it.. < 1268343677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would start on E (north Europe) I know that < 1268343685 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268343690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the second letter is for finland < 1268343705 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFHK. < 1268343728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's F for Finland. (Or maybe it's just a happy accident and not by design.) < 1268343751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does K mean United States? < 1268343769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes, you have 3 letters for inside the US < 1268343780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc france has a single letter prefix too < 1268343784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other big countries < 1268343803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that I don't know what France calls itself. < 1268343821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I forgot how to extract this from the flightgear airport data... < 1268343846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They call themselves France. That was easy enough. < 1268343862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_la_ France < 1268343862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is your equiv of luftfartsverket? < 1268343894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should have some sheets of info on the airport < 1268343899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on their website < 1268343927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I guess it's called Finavia nowadays. And yes, I guess they'd have that. < 1268343928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with stuff like VOR freqs and any ILS glideslopes and landing patterns and what not < 1268343935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey you're not supposed to spell that exactly the same as in norwegian! < 1268343987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "Finavia" sounds like some company flying cheap flights to tourist filled up islands or such < 1268343992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually it's no longer called that in norwegian < 1268344007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Avinor now < 1268344016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that sounds as silly... < 1268344018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the Finnish one < 1268344031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: shall we beat him up? < 1268344058 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. Do you want to be the one doing the beating, or the holding? < 1268344067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1268344069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, choices < 1268344081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also from which direction to attack? < 1268344088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how to represent it? < 1268344104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealth attack! -----### < 1268344108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a vector? If so, what would the base (is that the correct English term?) be < 1268344114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1268344121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you got that wrong i think < 1268344132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1268344135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it seems to be one - short < 1268344153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268344163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw http://www.finavia.fi/files/finavia2/Taulukot/Airport_Facts_Chart_Jan09.pdf < 1268344177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five hyphens and three pounds, right? < 1268344183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your measurement is way off, those are all about 60 m wide < 1268344207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I gave was for a rather small airport < 1268344215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: as it should be! < 1268344222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It still rounds to 50 if you quantize things with large enough granularity. < 1268344228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, just CAT II ILS heh < 1268344237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a larger airport near there? < 1268344263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not I'm really surprised at the main Helsingfors airport not having a CAT III ILS < 1268344281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing larger than Helsinki-Vantaa in Finland, no. < 1268344287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1268344308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the one I approximated at 20 m width was another place. < 1268344358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? you said EFHK when I asked < 1268344373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was for the 50 m figure. < 1268344382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The "main" (Helsinki-Vantaa) airport runway width, eyeballing from that satellite photo, seems to be around 50 m. < 1268344391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I was asking about the 20 meter one, I must have missed that line < 1268344414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one; it's EFHF for the tiny almost-in-the-city-centre airport. < 1268344468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not listed in that facts chart either; it's possible that it's still administered by the (apparently still existing as a subset of another government thing) Finnish Civil Aviation Authority thing, and not by the Finavia state-owned-enterprise nonsense. < 1268344526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs, lfv.se has redesigned, I'm unable to find the data on Swedish airports < 1268344532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flight weather yes... < 1268344536 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268344541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the landing patterns and so on < 1268344545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I have read it before < 1268344549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I read https://ais.fi/ais/eaip/aipcharts/efhf/hfad.pdf right that 20 m is actually 30 m. (At least in the N x M numbers the N matches the listed runway lengths.) < 1268344583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, charts like that plus a lot more I remember seeing on lfv.se ... < 1268344583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it how they have that other runway exactly 2^10 metres. < 1268344585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: clearly it's to confuse the terrorists < 1268344606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, -_- < 1268344643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes seems to be 30 meters wide asphalt < 1268344673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also note the listing with the four runways down in the corner < 1268344686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you know where the two "missing" ones are ;P < 1268344715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about you oerjan? < 1268344766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those just the same things in both directions? It sure looks that way. < 1268344772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1268344801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I expect oerjan would have answered before you if the directions had been given as radians instead of magnetic heading < 1268344867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the google thingy to search for things that links to a given url? < 1268344880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, https://ais.fi/ais/eaip/en/ seems to be the site for that sort of detailed information; it's Finavia-operated, but couldn't find any links to it from the mostly-PR-stuff finavia.fi site. At least Google helped. < 1268344896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly wish .523 were a TLD. < 1268344903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why? < 1268344970 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you mean the link: operator? < 1268344977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah thanks < 1268344978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/operators.html) < 1268344981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that didn't solve it < 1268345031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing "link:" searches seems to work rather randomly nowadays, anyway. < 1268345066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha http://www.lfv.se/sv/LFV/Flygtrafiktjansten/FPC/IAIP/AD-0-4/AD-2/ < 1268345068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1268345082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that is a lot of separate pdfs: http://www.lfv.se/sv/LFV/Flygtrafiktjansten/FPC/IAIP/AD-0-4/AD-2/S/ < 1268345118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i might have answered before fizzie if i had either (1) been looking at your page (2) not been browsing reddit < 1268345132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, suuuure ;P < 1268345193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and it seems ESSA at least have CAT III ILS :P < 1268345207 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1268345374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because then we could have ais.523. < 1268345658 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268345761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, -_- < 1268345912 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268346551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: thermo says STAY OUT of #nm < 1268346569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should probably join just to piss him off < 1268346745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what is #nm about? < 1268346751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanometers? < 1268346757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nautical miles? < 1268346772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughty midgets < 1268346813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mathematicians < 1268346840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps naughty mathematicians < 1268346863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be like not writing => when you should? < 1268346959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the irssi command to swap the current window with the given window < 1268346965 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^H? < 1268346968 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, what was it again - two contumacious cubits per naughty midget? < 1268346980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ??? < 1268346998 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268347004 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: !!! < 1268347005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why cubits? < 1268347026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: itym cupids < 1268347027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, not qubits? < 1268347046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A cubit is the first recorded unit of length and was one of many different standards of measurement used through history." < 1268347048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says wikipedia < 1268347049 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for their contumacity, of course < 1268347066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and itym qubits < 1268347079 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not that I did, but I could have meant it < 1268347133 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268347160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define cubit < 1268347163 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* an ancient unit of length based on the length of the forearm \ [19]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * CUBIT is an open source multi-touch system designed by Stefan Hechenberger and Addie Wagenknecht for NOR_/D. It was developed to "demystify multitouch" technology through making its software and hardware < 1268347245 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268347296 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268347548 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268347709 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096642086.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268347981 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268348400 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268349266 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268350218 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268351677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268351838 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268351873 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving