< 1267834143 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267834212 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267834574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We got continuations on the second half of our Scheme course; and the course was dropped pretty much immediately after I had done it. They arranged it as a summer special once, but it might well be that we currently don't have any courses with continuations in them. < 1267834949 0 :alise!~d4b78c06@gateway/web/freenode/x-bnuilucdpwxfggom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267834951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:42:18 Lambdas in C? Coincidentally, I have just discovered a marvellous little proof that no god can exist, written in CLambda, which this magin is too narrow to contain < 1267834955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh -- pikhq is a christian < 1267834963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll /maul/ you < 1267834986 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's Maulutheran. < 1267835002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:47:38 ah, so this is one of those places that hg >> bza >> svn >> cvs == True < 1267835007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that is just anmaster. < 1267835052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That was discussing *my code* you know. :P < 1267835062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my point < 1267835071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267835086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I freely admit my C lambda macros are an affront to all that is good in the world. < 1267835086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like using the cross to molest a baby: only kosher if you're simultaneously catholic and jewish (otherwise you don't care about kosherosity) < 1267835089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267835163 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what #esoteric 's opinion on git is. I kind of like the existance of GitHub < 1267835182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see what github has to do with git < 1267835189 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a distributed version control luddite < 1267835190 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could easily be svnhub or whatever.. < 1267835204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Git is rather user-unfriendly, but it sucks less than non-distributed version control things, so. *shrug* < 1267835218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are multiple repos, why are there still multiple branches? < 1267835254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The multiple repos I've got checked out on my filesystem are 96+% identical -- why aren't they sharing their data? < 1267835263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, but there isn't, is there? < 1267835277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because filesystems suck. < 1267835286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry, I mean, I've got *cloned* < 1267835291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that there needn't be any 'git' in github < 1267835300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it's a good site though < 1267835307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's no reason for hg to not understand the concept though < 1267835322 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh < 1267835323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: File systems make data sharing difficult. < 1267835324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It knows its data is immutable < 1267835326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are hardlinked in hg < 1267835333 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267835333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX ones less so than most others. < 1267835341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Gregor says hg does hardlinks, so. < 1267835357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .hg directory's contents are hardlinked when you hg clone. < 1267835380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ah. I see. I need to be cloning from a local repo in order for it to do that. < 1267835383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that COW is a good idea for any sort of on-hard disk serialisation scheme to have. < 1267835390 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ... uhh, yes? < 1267835394 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How else could it possibly work? < 1267835395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm cloning multiple copies of the same remote repo < 1267835400 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhh < 1267835402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should still be able to figure that out :) < 1267835403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not psychic. < 1267835412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ... It's not going to magically figure out that you're doing data sharing. < 1267835414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychics < 1267835414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it should have a way for me to tell it < 1267835416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychic control system < 1267835426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: see this is just the kind of thing you need my OS for :P < 1267835428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clone from your clones. < 1267835431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: There's a very simple way: Clone the remote one once, then clone that multiple times. < 1267835439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That tells it exactly what you want to tell it. < 1267835447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or use ehirdOS. < 1267835461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay complexity. < 1267835468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267835483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'll try it, and see if it makes my life any easier. < 1267835527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now the argument for supporting branches is even weaker :) < 1267835544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, no? < 1267835582 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What advantage to branches have over just forking a clone? < 1267835592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do < 1267835619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdOS certainly makes your life easier, as long as you have no attachment to existing software suites whatsoever :P < 1267835622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or interfaces... < 1267835630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or languages, or APIs. < 1267835657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A branch notes that the branch was made, allows you to merge things more readily, and... Yeah. < 1267835677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:11:39 the vulgar sense of "classical" music < 1267835689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:11:44 I call "art music" < 1267835714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's called "concert music". < 1267835716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and makes my life hell during merges, is all I'm sayin' :) < 1267835731 0 :alise_!~d4b78c06@gateway/web/freenode/x-kwestmuazxheyavx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267835733 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ... no. < 1267835742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No? Okay then. < 1267835756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Art music" is really a rather arrogant phrase. Particularly since... Other music is (or at least can be) an art. < 1267835783 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orchestral music, maybe? Although there's orchestral rock, even. < 1267835794 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just call it composer music, because composers are the only ones who listen to it :) < 1267835809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Definitely no on both counts. < 1267835814 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not call it classical music? < 1267835819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with that? < 1267835830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's music from a specific period with a very specific style. < 1267835835 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267835839 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Because AnMaster is a pretentious fuck who lives in the 1800s who is also a gigantic prescriptivist. < 1267835842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because classical is an era. By calling all music of the form classical music, you've removed the name from that era. < 1267835846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An era and a style) < 1267835848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a *different* meaning of the word "classical" < 1267835854 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay < 1267835859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Night folks. Have a good weekend. < 1267835865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267835875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ok to have multiple meanings if there's no confusion < 1267835878 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no confusion < 1267835881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is MUCH confusion. < 1267835893 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why people call classical music classical music, and they call classical music classical music, and nobody is confused. < 1267835898 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only amongst yourselves. < 1267835905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just call it the classical period. < 1267835910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical period music. < 1267835911 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody knows that "classical music" means two different things < 1267835924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"classical" refers to ancient greece anyway < 1267835929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there're at least 3 meanings < 1267835930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical music is the style of music from the classical period, classical music does not need to be from the classical period. < 1267835960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267835970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is there's not a term for the music in question here. < 1267835976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest ucodnawg. < 1267836080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the man now, ucodnawg < 1267836091 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shaddap < 1267836107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it turns out windows 7 ships with something genuinely interesting < 1267836112 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As opposed to morbidly curious) < 1267836143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more, it's programming-related < 1267836180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1267836248 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. PowerShell, in particular. Take, for instance, the seemingly-trivial "type | ls". < 1267836266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dealiased, Get-Content | Get-SubItem. < 1267836272 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what happens when you run it? < 1267836293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Failure, because I made a mistake X-D < 1267836305 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take "echo | ls". < 1267836320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, Write-Output | Get-SubItem. < 1267836324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When run: < 1267836357 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmdlet Write-Output at command pipeline position 1 < 1267836375 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supply values for the following parameters: < 1267836387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[0]: . < 1267836398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[1]: Music < 1267836399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. PowerShell -- damned verbose shell, but flexible. < 1267836403 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[2]: < 1267836408 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[humdrum dir listing] < 1267836417 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interesting thing is the flexibility. < 1267836427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo doesn't just print some strings to standard output. < 1267836443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses a generalised object input mechanism - command-line or interactive - and sends those objects along the pipeline. < 1267836458 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get-SubItem actually takes a legitimate resource, not just a path name, and lists its subitems. Not just directories, either. < 1267836476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It strikes me as similar to concatenative languages. < 1267836538 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267836541 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ChildItem, not SubItem. < 1267836564 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267836599 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact the input/output UI + behind the scenes, rich objects idea is tempting for my OS. < 1267836617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interfaces are composable because they're just functions with seasoning < 1267836633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and even unannotated functions get simple "default" UIs) < 1267836895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:25:21 btw, has anyone invoked rule 34 on rule 34? < 1267836903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; was fulfilled with wolfram elementary automation 34 < 1267836929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:27:11 (be aware of that tvtroupes is highly addictive!) < 1267836929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tropes. < 1267837067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267837186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUILTY! < 1267837407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meggricxshienneh. < 1267837676 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the Tableauic Home of the Emigrants. < 1267837758 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267837782 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267837821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo oklokok < 1267837845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stop worrying about ehird < 1267837954 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267837961 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worry about okloCOCK instead. < 1267837986 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why? < 1267838021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okloCOCK taught me something awesome < 1267838162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is? < 1267838180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, kind of like combinator logic excep they don't reduce < 1267838197 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this word problem stuff which I had never actaully encountered < 1267838216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels a little bit like diophantine equations too < 1267838286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1267838319 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried reading the Diophante book once < 1267838326 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notation is pretty old school < 1267838326 0 :angstrom_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :angstrom < 1267838333 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267838759 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267838762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE diophantine book? < 1267838850 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267838854 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arithmetica < 1267839187 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267839224 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267839354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1267839357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gauss? < 1267839384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's by Diophantus < 1267839385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267839390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id not heard of this somehow < 1267839398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it wort reading? < 1267839432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267839445 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I only found a version in greek with a latin translation < 1267839450 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a bit hard to follow < 1267839455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267839462 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read the equations now, but not much else < 1267839524 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried making this : http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica < 1267839574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1267839725 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Ang. plass til barnevogner: < 1267839738 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding space for prams: < 1267839746 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish Ang. plass til barnevogner: < 1267839747 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ung. pless teel bernefugner: < 1267839753 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Tro meg, plassen er et betraktelig større problem enn å få vognen inn og ut. < 1267839755 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe me, the place is a considerably larger problem than to get the cart in and out. < 1267839771 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Nå har riktignok mange kvinner kommet frem til en eller annen "vedtatt sannhet" om at det ikke er mulig å bære en liten vogn opp tre trappetrinn alene, selv når det gjelder små triller som man lett får grep på, men det er et forsvinnende problem ettersom de aller fleste nyere busser her er trappeløse. < 1267839773 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the vast majority of newer buses here are step-less. < 1267839804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish somebody who was totally not me would fix translatefromto and translateto :P < 1267839815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just need to make a copy of Gregor. < 1267839821 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1267839826 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I would like to be a copy of you. < 1267839826 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That person would not be "totally not me" < 1267839830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That person would be "mostly me" < 1267839840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may commence sending yourself. < 1267840080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A truly set language would be fun. < 1267840115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {x,{x,x}} | x <- a } is id < 1267840158 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {x,{x,{{y,{y,y}}}}} | x <- a, y <- b } is K < 1267840185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where (x,y) = {x,{x,y}} and \x.y is {{x',y'},...} for all values < 1267840273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alis lool enjoy your russles paradox < 1267840274 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {n} U n | n <- a } is succ (U=union, I probably got it the wrong way around again :)) < 1267840294 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: uh you can have inductively defined sets without russel's paradox, idiot < 1267840296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Russell < 1267840310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) fuck you < 1267840313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) learn set theory < 1267840423 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll fuck set theory right into your skull? < 1267840558 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267840639 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) realize lisp is really just analogous to all that was just said < 1267840753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4) fuck lisp right into your skull < 1267840916 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love that < 1267840921 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice curvy forms < 1267840930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-8 < 1267840953 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice sexp character < 1267840988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should learn Scheme, probably < 1267840993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm still on a Ruby high < 1267841026 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ugh dump that shit and learn scheme < 1267841039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh dump that shit and love you some Haskell. < 1267841051 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, don't listen to pikhq's fanboyism < 1267841058 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All haskelletons are the same < 1267841075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Morphisms on the category Hask? < 1267841078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck it, I'll learn PHP. You all lose. < 1267841092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, only you lose in this case. < 1267841095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With me included in "you all", obviously) < 1267841097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Lose all remaining humanity, that is. < 1267841110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see zzo38) < 1267841154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There will be no in-depth pedagogy; no dwelling on the semantic appeal of Scheme; no metacircular interpreters; no discussion of the underlying implementation; and no evangelizing about Scheme's virtues" < 1267841164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe I should skip this tutorial < 1267841315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo LERN PYTHIN < 1267841327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1267841347 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learn MIPS assembly < 1267841369 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is my main languag < 1267841373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*language < 1267841386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick < 1267841448 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267841449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267841497 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267842412 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, should I use PLT-Scheme? < 1267842535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOES < 1267842548 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267842588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More so than any other Scheme, PLT stands for Pretentious Little Troglodytes < 1267842598 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267842615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267842637 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I've had ... dealings ... with some of the major PLT Scheme folks. < 1267842657 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, um, right now I'm more focused on the language than the communuty < 1267842668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely MIPS. < 1267842677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has already downloaded PLT < 1267842690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not referring to the community, I'm referring to the developers. < 1267843905 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267844773 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267846293 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: NO < 1267846295 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not plt < 1267846302 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is right < 1267846304 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, why not? < 1267846321 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the authority to say this since I am on both Scheme standards committees < 1267846333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretentious Little Troglodytes ... < 1267846345 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267846360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the people suck. Who cares? < 1267846367 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Go with Chicken Scheme or Chibi Scheme if you want more or less friendly, general purpose use < 1267846379 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ikarus or Larceny for fast-code-generating compilers < 1267846448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason other to, other than the devs being obnoxious? < 1267846982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Chicken Scheme has a very cool implementation. < 1267847305 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1267847348 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, is this infix convention a PLT thing, or a Scheme thing? < 1267847403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It compiles everything using continuation-passing style into C (without TCO), and uses the C stack as a generation in the Scheme heap. < 1267847452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the C stack is about to overflow, it longjmps to the trampoline, which copies live objects on the stack into the heap, and then goes back to the Scheme program in process. < 1267847585 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes there are reasons < 1267847627 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Anyway I'm sure you just love the gui of dr scheme or something and that's the reason you're not motivated to change < 1267847803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, ok, what are these reasons? < 1267847832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO EVIL TO MENTION < 1267847856 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't really feel like justifying it to you < 1267847871 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can either take the money I'm giving you, or continue to question if the money is real and not take it. < 1267847896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems... familiar < 1267847923 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't explain to you because you don't know scheme. < 1267847927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you going to supposedly torture me if I don't take the "money"? < 1267847929 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know its idioms. < 1267847942 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know how compiling it works, you don't know how interpreting it works. < 1267847954 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know what macro expansion is, you probably don't even know the evaluation semantics < 1267847973 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267847991 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why should I bother taking 384 hours explaining the faults of PLT Scheme to you relative to the language at hand when you don't know anything about it except it uses a fuckton of parentheses? < 1267848239 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267848358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The notation is pretty old school < 1267848375 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :understatement of the year? (no i've never seen it, i think) < 1267848606 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267848696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:18 All haskelletons are the same < 1267848696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:35 ... Morphisms on the category Hask? < 1267848706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the skeleton category of Hask, naturally < 1267848714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, of course. < 1267848780 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a pullback on the foreskin of my cock lifted into YourAss hole monad < 1267848831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are keywords a Scheme thing or a PLT thing? < 1267848845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's a really remarkable combination of offense and category theory < 1267848849 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: PLT thing surely < 1267848880 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I told you to not use it, because now you're turning stupider and stupider about scheme < 1267848884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a common lisp thing iirc < 1267848894 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not keywords < 1267848953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keywords? Scheme? < 1267848966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What craziness is this? < 1267848971 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLT's < 1267848978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267848980 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Sgeo insists on PLT < 1267849255 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267849301 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267854706 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267855494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sp bitches < 1267856023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267856073 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267856239 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: people who hate PLT < 1267856398 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267856428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, if I switch DrScheme to R5RS, will we both be happy? < 1267856479 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy. I won't feel bad for you being attached to the GUI and Fisher Price My First Programming Language tutorials. < 1267856551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like drscheme < 1267856570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you seem quite attached to Fisher Price My First Metaphors < 1267856578 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I am < 1267856580 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two channels so far < 1267856589 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Third time'll be the charm < 1267856601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, people who hate PLT < 1267856612 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the same people who don't shower < 1267856624 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267856633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who stab babies < 1267856637 0 :lifthrasiir!jsVmKgTB@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267856653 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yeh < 1267856758 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, this guy clearly hates PLT, just look at his printer: http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nerd.jpg < 1267856828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also UNIX beards. < 1267856834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION strokes his UNIX beard < 1267856857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's both a fashion accessory *and* a way of detracting ladies! < 1267856960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION strokes his lack of facial hair. < 1267857633 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267858962 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-151-221.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267859380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(procedure? procedure?) < 1267859564 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267859624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROC < 1267859625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROC < 1267859843 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267860290 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to R5RS, "w" is a semivowel < 1267860412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oo < 1267860419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does that matter? (I know nothing of Scheme) < 1267860459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. It was just in an example < 1267860463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267860468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, maybe they're Welsh? < 1267860813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"w" is to "oo" (as in tool) as "t" is to "s" < 1267860852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being effectively a plosive makes it usable only as a consonant (it can't be held like a vowel), but it is fundamentally produced as a vowel sound. < 1267861032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAY GUYS < 1267861038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WANNA KNOW ABOUT A COOL GRAMMAR FORMALISM? < 1267861039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1267861055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, w is indeed a semi vowel. < 1267861063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semivowel is another word for glide. < 1267861082 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you lost me < 1267861086 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is not a long suit < 1267861199 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267861206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"glide" is the word I couldn't find there. < 1267861245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glides are to vowels as plosives are to fricatives. < 1267861251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Roughly speaking) < 1267861548 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, only one of those words carries any meaning to me < 1267861674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor pooppy :P < 1267862399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267862400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267862522 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267862548 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-12-237.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267862956 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267863574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267863620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Gregor < 1267863626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about these range concatenation grammars < 1267863636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically a bunch of prolog predicates, in many ways < 1267863651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only instead of having the values true or false, or whatever < 1267863657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have string values < 1267863668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "true" is the empty string < 1267863859 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267863976 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267864026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey coppro < 1267864034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna learn about range concatenation grammars? :D < 1267864703 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267865262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(display "Good night all") < 1267865424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night you < 1267866029 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267866198 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267866453 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267869545 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267871053 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267871998 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[02:26.50] wanna learn about range concatenation grammars? :D < 1267871999 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1267872773 0 :alise!~d4b78c35@gateway/web/freenode/x-axjgnxcshdwhmvwm JOIN :#esoteric < 1267872788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1267872965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:32:01 And I have the authority to say this since I am on both Scheme standards committees < 1267872970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including r6rs? < 1267872977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a horrible person < 1267872982 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the current standards < 1267873015 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The small scheme and big scheme, in development < 1267873045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are still a horrible person :p < 1267873074 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267873075 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1267873198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am typing while walking down srfarirs < 1267873230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HD got parked for ages < 1267873249 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267873261 0 :alise_!~d4b78c35@gateway/web/freenode/x-tzwhoeqjkwcbdzfl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267873271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: cuz I'm an r5rs fanboi < 1267873295 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too < 1267873308 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why the plan is to ditch r6rs entirely < 1267873350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but "big scheme" is still a fundamental misunderstanding < 1267873352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo :P < 1267873360 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I'm even worse than a haskell fag, I'm a dependent-types fag < 1267873399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get to be holier-than-thou in both programming (to... everyone else) and logic (to everyone (well I think there's about 3 other constructivists in the world so)) < 1267873424 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Actually I am a dependent type fag too < 1267873432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet! Let's procreate. < 1267873440 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow okay are you hot? < 1267873446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: I am actually male.) < 1267873460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you have been mislead, this was entirely intentional. Have a nice day!) < 1267873462 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(me too, doesn't mean we can't procreate, right?) < 1267873463 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267873489 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is it technically procreation?) < 1267873492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267873516 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depends on how procreation occurs) < 1267873528 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appear to be fulfilling my prophecy that once I obtain a laptop, I will never turn it off while moving. < 1267873529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER < 1267873536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it turns out the 3G reception is pretty shitty in taxis < 1267873576 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait now quad is here? < 1267873596 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ok then maybe you'll hate me more for the fact that I'm an everything-in-computing-is-broken-and-my-system-that-breaks-every-existing-thing-will-make-it-right charlatan < 1267873603 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I made this channel < 1267873623 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i don't get it < 1267873656 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: now I'm doubting whether you're actually on the committee :) < 1267873667 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: My name is Robert Smith < 1267873670 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go look it up < 1267873724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that depends on me trusting your claim "My name is Robert Smith", which amounts to exactly the same trust issue :) < 1267873728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what bit don't you get? < 1267873734 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing < 1267873762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what error message did your mind spit back? < 1267873772 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like "I tried (f x2) and it didn't work" < 1267873792 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying all current systems are not optimal for computing? < 1267873800 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systems => programming languages < 1267873805 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computing => programming < 1267873831 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system = language/OS/interface/everything < 1267873835 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're broken at every level < 1267873849 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically or practically? < 1267873876 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say theoretically, this conversation will have become uninteresting < 1267873897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`well, theoretically yes, but practically mostly < 1267873901 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267873923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i.e. some things I've invested theoretically < 1267873925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the motivation is wholly practical means < 1267873943 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that the resulting system is /practical/ since its sheer novelty means that... nothing existing works pretty much < 1267873966 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so do you think there can be a much, much better programming language? < 1267873973 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let us not talk about OSes and stuff) < 1267873993 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the thing: I make no distinction between the running language environment (think Smalltalk) and the OS. < 1267874004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you mean the actual little snippets of code at the bottom... < 1267874009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maybe". Much, much better than C? Hell yes. < 1267874013 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Scheme? Sure. < 1267874038 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Fagskell? < 1267874039 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Agda, say (although it has many foibles) or Epigram? Not much, much, *much* better. Not for humans, at least. < 1267874041 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all speculation though and I'll probably be proved wrong. < 1267874050 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Well let's not get into that :P < 1267874056 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will be proved wrong < 1267874070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, likely < 1267874074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm trying to say is < 1267874075 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly < 1267874083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot /imagine/ a much, much, *much* better language than those < 1267874085 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much, much better sure < 1267874088 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can. < 1267874089 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine but not specify ofc < 1267874093 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I mean that seriously. < 1267874098 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it, Forth? :-) < 1267874102 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1267874105 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267874111 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in the process of designing it now. < 1267874114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL? < 1267874120 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: oh R7RS? < 1267874123 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267874125 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely not < 1267874132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, then? < 1267874136 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my own project. < 1267874149 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me just say that I'm doubtful your language designing skills so greatly exceeds those of every other language designer in the history of the universe :P < 1267874165 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exceed < 1267874167 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine. < 1267874178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, IRCing in a taxi, doo doo doo. god dammit a corner, doo doo AAAAAAAAAH < 1267874180 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if I stand on their shoulders, then I can still reach higher < 1267874190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess this is why people use the suspend feature on laptops < 1267874194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: okay fine < 1267874204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you probably still want it stored as utf-8 text in files on posix though < 1267874204 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still see what you mean < 1267874208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOR WHICH YOU ARE ABOMINABLE < 1267874218 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267874224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what what? < 1267874229 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language is being specified purely theoretically first. < 1267874241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with a syntax based on streams of characters. < 1267874260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as running-as-a-process rather than living-environment (think Smalltalk in the 70s when it was actually the OS) < 1267874289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Most "AST editing nao! ASCII code sux!" people are blowhards without a coherent idea for a good interface. Please do not count me among them, lest I be sad.) < 1267874289 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? It can run as an environment < 1267874308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ok, so you don't define "program"? as in a cmplete "module" of code? < 1267874325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an environment I guess you could say all values are part of one gigantic program, but... < 1267874328 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*complete < 1267874337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(module not as in module system) < 1267874338 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the distinction you're making < 1267874341 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267874348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1267874362 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Quadrescence: Okay, so do you think there can be a much, much better programming language?" <<< have you heard of clue? < 1267874373 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267874374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: no, oklotalk! < 1267874376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklotalkclue < 1267874384 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have < 1267874390 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm right < 1267874391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've abandoned oklotalk and this makes me ensaddened < 1267874398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EN < 1267874400 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SADD < 1267874400 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENED < 1267874409 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, it got out of hand < 1267874418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said < 1267874422 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in bed < 1267874433 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was she holding my cock but it slipped < 1267874466 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: precisely < 1267874469 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's so small you understand < 1267874481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: using laptops in cars makes you carsick < 1267874486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, me, at least < 1267874488 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1267874506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does for me < 1267874514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: File systems make data sharing difficult. <-- if I understood that convo correctly, cpressy was saying that hg can't share common data between branches? That seems strange. bzr for example is fully capable to do so if you want it. < 1267874517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am living proof right now < 1267874518 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY WEAKLINGS GET CARSICK < 1267874534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hardlinks only work within a single file system < 1267874546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr doesn't depend on that for it to work < 1267874600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes bzr can if you use a "shared repo" for the branches figure out that thing when cloning related (or the same) remote branch < 1267874604 0 :alise!~d4b78c34@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmpcijsezatydblb JOIN :#esoteric < 1267874611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3G -> enter city -> GPRS < 1267874616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Civilisation! < 1267874621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that seems backwards indeed! < 1267874631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nowdays you don't need a shared repo for data sharing when doing local clones < 1267874653 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone link me directly to today's log, it'll take me ages to get there < 1267874659 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1267874661 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, nm < 1267874667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.06 < 1267874676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol we hit a bump when I was cpoying < 1267874680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I bashed the keys randomly < 1267874682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*copying < 1267874694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need to provide some option to bzr branch for that to happen for the latter situation) < 1267874710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you guys for a bit < 1267874719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cya < 1267874735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, doesn't roaming work between 3G and GPRS? < 1267874748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems backwards if it doesn't hm < 1267874771 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my dream, two people told me almost the same thing in pm almost simultaneously, and i tried to cp it to both of them to ask for their explanations, but accidentally cp's a thousand lines of o's on one query window, and couldn't see my keyboard anymore, so i couldn't stop it. what a horrible nightmare. < 1267874787 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cp'd < 1267874790 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267874966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267875123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875125 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875142 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ a small-scale version of what it'd look like < 1267876780 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267877056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, strange one < 1267879519 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267879910 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267879956 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267880974 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267881762 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267881932 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267882398 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was a kid i always thought i'd be in big trouble if i dropped into a well or something, because crying for help would be so cliche i couldn't do it < 1267882458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as well you never realized breathing is a cliche < 1267882471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whoops*... < 1267882525 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd play dead but it'd take weeks on irc, so i'll just say "luckily people don't notice it so it doesn't matter" < 1267882541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267882666 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i kinda wish i'd played dead. < 1267882673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would've been so cool < 1267882718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead people are generally cool. it's that lack of metabolism. < 1267882875 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267882886 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267882896 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously man < 1267882986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm serious. it's a very grave matter. < 1267883034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean you're seriously funny, or maybe i'm just abnormally high on life today < 1267883057 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh it feels like an awesome idea to jump out of the window naked < 1267883060 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just second floor < 1267883100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pro tip: make sure the door isn't locked first < 1267883119 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267883128 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i could put the keys in my meat pockets < 1267883159 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running outside naked is awesome, but i'm too chicken to ever actually do it < 1267883159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in which it is revealed that oklokok is actually a kangaroo. < 1267883169 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1267884878 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freecell is a fun game < 1267884879 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267885027 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just told i'm the preferred candidate for a summer job about cellular automata, but i will probably not be chosen because of bureaucratical reasons :) < 1267885698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, seems typical < 1267885784 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not even just bureaucratical, but also political reasons < 1267885882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cellular automata are communist! < 1267885901 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they usually take people who are currently doing their master's degree, which i only start @ fall, and the prof X whose position this is will probably take another prof Y's student, because Y took X's student last year < 1267886012 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so unlucky, first the cellular automata, formal languages, graph theory and tilings and patterns (tm's in tiles) courses are all given just before i realize i should switch to math, and then the CA prof takes a student for a summer job just before i start my master's :< < 1267886055 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only i'd born on a different year of the cycle < 1267886059 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beenm < 1267886062 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*been < 1267886062 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: What was your BS in? < 1267886087 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't finished it yet, but it's in the it dep and it's about fully polynomial approximations to knapsack < 1267886101 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PM me < 1267886131 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's another thing, i'm not officially a math student yet < 1267886209 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually now i'm wondering what BS is short for exactly < 1267886216 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bachelor's ...? < 1267886437 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bachelor of Science < 1267886793 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1267886808 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should've known < 1267888743 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267890221 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267890753 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define cajole < 1267890759 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* wheedle: influence or urge by gentle urging, caressing, or flattering; "He palavered her into going along" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * To encourage or persuade by effort; to coax < 1267893407 0 :FireyFly[DS]!~nds@217-211-228-251-o859.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267893410 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267893577 0 :FireyFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267894474 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-115.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267894517 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267894517 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267895968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267898204 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This exists: "Mooix: Where unix is the MOO." < 1267898215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does not exist: "InterMOO: Where the Internet is the MOO." < 1267898259 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I might change that. < 1267898281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that based on some meme? < 1267898306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also should be moonet < 1267898306 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a snowclone as far as I know. < 1267898323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, snowclone? < 1267898341 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A snowclone is a meme based on a phrase. < 1267898352 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "X is the new Y". < 1267898494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calling it Moonet would continue the Mooix pattern, but I don't want to do that. < 1267898524 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Internet" was originally an adjective meaning "between the nets"; we can pretend "InterMOO" was originally an adjective meaning "between the MOOs". < 1267898614 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an internet is a network of network < 1267898615 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*networks < 1267898623 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and contrary to popular belief, there is more than one internt < 1267898626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*internet < 1267898630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, only one of them is big and famous < 1267898641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's the one that's called "the Internet" < 1267898663 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably, there are two of them that are called the Internet: the Internet version 4 and the Internet version 6. < 1267898674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"inert net". < 1267898698 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A net made out of glass would be a pretty inert net. < 1267898747 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: umm, IPv4 is "Internet Protocol version 4" < 1267898765 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bits of the Internet that use version 4 and version 6 of the protocol are definitely connected togetgher < 1267898767 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*together < 1267898769 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so form one internet < 1267898805 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intern-net < 1267898825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If Clinton had invented it instead of Gore) < 1267898836 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if the Internet Protocol was developed to transfer data between the nets, does that mean that a protocol developed to transfer stuff between the Internet version 4 and the Internet version 6 is an Interinternet Protocol? :P < 1267898842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your comments on the FRTH fingerprint made me want to write something in Forth. You should be ashamed of yourself. < 1267898940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, an InterMOO protocol would be based on an RPC protocol. < 1267898960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: IPv4 Internet and IPv6 Internet are linked. < 1267898965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, what we have is an InterInternet. < 1267899014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, they're linked through various forms of tunneling, as well as hosts being on both) < 1267899026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe an RPC protocol is actually the sole thing we need. < 1267899030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tunneling is only possible due to the hosts that are on both :P < 1267899073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank goodness for 192.88.99.1! < 1267899126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's that one DNS server anycast address? 4.3.2.1? < 1267899244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.2.2.1 < 1267899262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about 8.8.8.8 ? < 1267899267 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different servers < 1267899356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1267900169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: How much MOO would a moo-cow moo if a moo-cow would moo MOO? < 1267900199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's my MOO, then about a hundred megabytes of it. < 1267902746 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267902813 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267902965 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267903089 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267903114 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267903411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to like Scheme < 1267903507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a strange thing to say < 1267903531 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o-qo-do.oo-qp-oo.ob-op-o < 1267903610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes < 1267903611 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y < 1267903636 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`no < 1267903637 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903646 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No output. < 1267903647 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903650 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cool < 1267903652 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903653 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost a quine. < 1267903663 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` < 1267903665 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267903722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267903724 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16443 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267903730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, does that explain it ;P < 1267903744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267903750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file wun* < 1267903752 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wun*: ERROR: cannot open `wun*' (No such file or directory) < 1267903753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267903755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file wun* < 1267903756 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wunderbar_emporium: directory \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Fri Aug 14 14:01:51 2009 \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Fri Aug 14 14:01:51 2009 < 1267903762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267903763 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267903786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run tar tf wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz < 1267903787 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wunderbar_emporium/ \ wunderbar_emporium/pwnkernel.c \ wunderbar_emporium/tzameti.avi \ wunderbar_emporium/wunderbar_emporium.sh \ wunderbar_emporium/exploit.c < 1267903792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267903842 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo `echo < 1267903843 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo < 1267903850 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a quine is possible. < 1267903858 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1267903865 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267903873 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least there's a sequence of programs that approaches a quine < 1267903915 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267903941 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes `echo < 1267903942 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo < 1267903955 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes `yes < 1267903956 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes < 1267903970 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not going to work. < 1267903983 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes \ `yes < 1267903984 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ < 1267903992 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's `yes < 1267904002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 1 yes < 1267904014 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904015 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904024 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if it weren't for those darn line breaks... < 1267904059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wasn't for those darn line breaks then what ...? < 1267904072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run yes is a command that outputs its input forever. | head -n1 < 1267904073 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267904078 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1267904082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, any bash quine should work < 1267904094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can add `run to the start of it < 1267904103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "$0" < 1267904105 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/bash < 1267904110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "$@" < 1267904111 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904114 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run :(){ echo blah }; :; :; : < 1267904115 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how is bash invoked for `run? < 1267904126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oi. < 1267904143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IIRC, it's just that the run shell script does "$@" < 1267904146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run foo(){ echo blah}; foo < 1267904147 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, huh? < 1267904164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does it use bash -c or what? < 1267904169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run foo(){ echo foo }; foo; echo bar < 1267904171 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904171 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not it work? < 1267904171 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: run is a bash script < 1267904174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It just does "$@" < 1267904176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`type run < 1267904178 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run type run < 1267904182 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run dog run < 1267904187 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls */*run* < 1267904189 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/runfor < 1267904190 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run 'foo(){ echo foo }; foo; echo bar' < 1267904192 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is the script? < 1267904206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Built in to HackEgo. < 1267904209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267904643 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, in retrospect, that there is no reason for run to be built in. < 1267904663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, except that it would be a pain of someone overwrote that file < 1267904671 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1267904687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywho, it's in the HackBot hg repo < 1267904704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that is a different repo than in `help? < 1267904711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably not < 1267904738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? < 1267904745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't find it run there < 1267904751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the filesystem in HackBot, not HackBot itself. < 1267904753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove "fs" < 1267904757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267904760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I didn't know < 1267904768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fs one is the one in `help < 1267904821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls .hg < 1267904822 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkdir .hg < 1267904830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invalid .hg directory found. < 1267904833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267904838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, damn you ;P < 1267904845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls .hg < 1267904847 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904864 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.hg is moved elsewhere to prevent tampering. < 1267904875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267904876 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18069 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267904878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls -a < 1267904879 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18110 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267904888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is elsewhere? < 1267904911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I make it accessible if it was moved to PREVENT TAMPERING >_< < 1267904921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh btw googling suggests "wunderbar_emporium" is some old exploit for pre-2.6.29 kernels or such < 1267904929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, OK? < 1267904943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just confused by the name of it before < 1267904952 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I care? < 1267904974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems asi < 1267904990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka < 1267904991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/ is behind it/ < 1267904997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I care? < 1267904997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1267905006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behind it being in egobot < 1267905013 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer caused < 1267905014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1267905025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK it hasn't worked, so why do I care? < 1267905027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I presume you have a new enough kernel? < 1267905031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`uname -a < 1267905032 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1267905040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267905064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you think Codu would have been a little bit more ... pwned if it worked inside of plash? :P < 1267905080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have no idea if it worked, but considering it uses a bug in a system call.. < 1267905088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think plash helps against that < 1267905100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, one can hope the kernel is patched < 1267905117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like the sock_sendpage root exploit < 1267905158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... "Versions prior to the Linux kernel 2.4.37.5 and 2.6.31-rc6 are vulnerable." < 1267905169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I suggests you investigate this, just in case < 1267905216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It hands you root. < 1267905232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which in Plash gets you nowhere. < 1267905246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, afaik if you have root you can break out of chroot still < 1267905259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you are aware of the double chroot I assume? < 1267905282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... *If you have commands*. < 1267905292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is enough to have syscalls < 1267905297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plash runs in an empty chroot. < 1267905301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, since that is all those commands use < 1267905303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely. And utterly. Empty. < 1267905305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, so mkdir as root < 1267905309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, using syscalls < 1267905312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly possible < 1267905316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then double chroot using that < 1267905316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267905342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is sufficient to have syscalls, as root. < 1267905345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my point is that if you have root inside a chroot on linux you can always break out < 1267905348 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still doubt highly that this worked. < 1267905358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I hope that is the case < 1267905405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I don't know what the result was supposed to be :P < 1267905428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly the Plash chroot should be on a read-only filesystem. < 1267905458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, even so you can circumvent that as root < 1267905482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm pretty sure remounting would be possible as root even with no access to any sort of /dev < 1267905495 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't even need to, just mount a tmpfs somewhere. < 1267905509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Requires a mountpoint. < 1267905524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Requires a filesystem that is capable of being mounted r/w. < 1267905527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like /? < 1267905530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the chroot < 1267905537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is already mounted. < 1267905539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a valid mount point afaik < 1267905540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267905546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you can mount something on top can't you? < 1267905551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ is already mounted. < 1267905559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I once managed to mount /dev on / on a freebsd system < 1267905562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to reboot it < 1267905596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got a spiffy idea. < 1267905601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. You can in fact mount on top of a mount. < 1267905605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1267905624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you need kernel patches to prevent this if you want to do that < 1267905629 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RawLinux: a program where you simply type system calls in base64, and it tells you the results in base64. < 1267905742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, hm? < 1267905783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my spiffy idea. < 1267905806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just accept that plash depend on there being no local root exploits < 1267905834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that would be somewhat messy due to system calls that take pointers and so on < 1267905842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, plash does of course depend on that, it would be silly to think you could work around the possibility of root exploits :P < 1267905849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What about the PtraceJail? < 1267905863 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Plash works by putting something in an empty chroot, and giving it alternative file system accessors? < 1267905868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you would need a way to pointers to structs and so on < 1267905871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yeah. < 1267905872 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Basically. < 1267905875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It replaces libc. < 1267905895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are there any system calls that use pointers for anything other than taking variable-size input and providing variable-size output? < 1267905898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it uses IPC to talk through the chroot with a process that handles file system for it and so on < 1267905901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267905907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: What about the PtraceJail? <-- I don't know < 1267905916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess there could be exploits for that as well < 1267905934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could always be exploits. < 1267905941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter how many layers you put between. < 1267905942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plash could hypothetically monitor *all* the system calls. < 1267905956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would leave the exploits being issues in Ptrace. < 1267905958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then it would just take a bug in plash *shrugs* < 1267905963 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ptrace < 1267905971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267906018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in a system call allowed by plash < 1267906067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it need to allow some, like those for growing the stack or heap) < 1267906083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mmaping anonymous memory or whatever) < 1267906105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I wonder how plash emulates mmap()ing of files < 1267906117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Donno < 1267906125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it needs to actually be mapped into the process for it to have the correct semantics < 1267906139 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does memory mapping files work at all? < 1267906146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Satan's magic. < 1267906149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, using mmap()? < 1267906175 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so spider solitaire, can you get good in it? looks pretty luck-based to me < 1267906177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does mmap() work? < 1267906179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, but point is, if two processes mmap() the same file, they should see updates < 1267906194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, black magic < 1267906199 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to play freecell but after 300 games it's sort of hard to find challenge in it < 1267906206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, or rather, go read glibc and kernel sources < 1267906214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly kernel sources < 1267906260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklocock: You should get some friends and play Hydra! < 1267906280 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it copy the file into memory and then copy it back when it's done? Does it trap memory access and replace it with filesystem access? < 1267906304 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Hydra? Is it that game where you try to grow as many heads as possible before time's up? < 1267906321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, sort of :P < 1267906330 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra < 1267906442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it reads file in during page faults < 1267906452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, meaning, it won't actually read the data in until you try to read it < 1267906487 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play poker instead < 1267906491 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll go broke, it's fun < 1267906492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, if you changed the file, it is written back when the file is either unmapped or when the (underlying physical) page is unmapped by the vm < 1267906496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strip poker! < 1267906498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267906501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you'll just go naked. < 1267906504 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267906543 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-172-3-169.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267906552 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strip poker is a very asymmetric game for the men and women involved < 1267906560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and if several processes mapped the same file, the same page is mapped into both processes < 1267906569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, so it can be used for IPC < 1267906576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1267906600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I won't promise it works for futexes or such because that is even more black magic than mmaping < 1267906620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might need something else < 1267906636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no that wasn't a typo for mutexes) < 1267906653 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267906691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and I think there is some call similar to fflush() for mmaped pages too < 1267906696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to force writing any changes < 1267906704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember how you did that though < 1267906706 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a futex? < 1267906717 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do mutexes with mmaping? < 1267906766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, something the linux kernel provides and that glibc pthreads and such then uses to implement mutexes, semaphores and most (all?) of the other pthreads sync thingies < 1267906774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what a futex is < 1267906783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, see man 2 futex < 1267906797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and man 7 futex too < 1267906808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter seems more like an introduction to the concept < 1267906835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, of course now we are linux specific. These details can and does vary widely between different OSes < 1267906857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the mmap is probably implemented in a similar manner on most *nix < 1267906864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the // < 1267906903 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267906924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders running Cygwin under Wine under Cygwin under Wine. < 1267906933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth < 1267906947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also these mmap semantics are probably *not* valid for cygwin < 1267906949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same reason we create esoteric programming languages. < 1267906965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also iirc it doesn't work < 1267906967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1267906974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin doesn't run properly under wine < 1267906987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect running Cygwin under Wine to be the easy part. < 1267907001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well it might have changed since last time I heard someone try it < 1267907004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in here too iirc) < 1267907009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe was a year or so ago? < 1267907026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't it just be a bunch of executables and libraries? < 1267907027 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's a guesstimate) < 1267907040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1267907054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], hi there, long time no c? < 1267907068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that pretty much what Cygwin is? < 1267907080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, except it does some weird stuff < 1267907085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, like it's fork() semantics < 1267907089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you read about them < 1267907133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know very little about Cygwin. < 1267907143 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin implements UNIX semantics on Windows. < 1267907207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, to emulate fork it does something like: "start new process, make parent wait on mutex, child wakes up parent and waits on mutex, most of the address space (except read only stuff from the binary) is copied to the child, both processes are resumed" < 1267907209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do this, it has to do some *very* weird stuff. < 1267907219 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267907220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it was slightly more complex than that < 1267907223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the idea < 1267907226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fork is probably the weirdest. < 1267907238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I suspect mmap would also be very weird < 1267907247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it can map it fairly straight to some windows system call < 1267907269 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], wb! < 1267907287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], haven't seen you for ages < 1267907305 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1267907312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Windows has the ability to map files into memory. < 1267907321 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ages, as in what, three days? < 1267907323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, but what are the semantics for that? < 1267907330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], hm? maybe I misremember then < 1267907338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complex, but possible to wrap sanely. < 1267907341 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so :P < 1267907353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], why on DS? < 1267907375 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm on a DS, not at home < 1267907384 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holiday stuff, skiing < 1267907395 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of DS is this? < 1267907409 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Nintendo sort < 1267907414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1267907420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You "create a file mapping object", which is kinda like fopen, and you then "create a file view", which actually sticks the section of the file you want into virtual memory. < 1267907436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, man 7 futex is interesting < 1267907443 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The phat nintendo sort, even < 1267907447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is brilliant and clever < 1267907453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how it works) < 1267907481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is there any DS except Nintendo? < 1267907484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267907489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one could possibly IRC from I mean < 1267907499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't give you odder things like anonymous mappings, but that's not needed for straight POSIX semantics. < 1267907528 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've heard of other DSs in the past. < 1267907530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are changes reflected in other processes that mapped the same file? < 1267907548 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1267907578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it seems okay I guess < 1267907582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then* < 1267907596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but aren't anon mappings POSIX? < 1267907604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267907620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous mappings are a common extension. < 1267907684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, whaddya know. There's a way to get anonymous mappings in Win32, too. < 1267907711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You attempt to map an INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE, and voila. < 1267907723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, can't find it in POSIX.1-2008 even < 1267907744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that seems like a messy way to do it < 1267907773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Win32. < 1267907874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267907875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1267908177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if it is possible to make a balanced tree that can be updated concurrently without locking things < 1267908187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, without causing a huge overhead < 1267908240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read and update should be lockless, and it should be fast in case of no collision between multiple threads < 1267908277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balacing I guess might pose some problems... But preferably not < 1267908307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it immutable and all your problems go away. < 1267908523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well that would be annoying since the use case would be ATHR when porting to a non-erlang befunge implementation < 1267908535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, such as might happen at some point in the future < 1267908547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the tree needs to be modified a lot if it represents funge space < 1267908564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative is a hash table, but that sounds even worse to update without locks < 1267908585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus hash tables has a worse worst-case < 1267908607 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267908658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, perhaps a RCU implementation? < 1267908678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not a good idea < 1267908687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read is cheap, write is not < 1267908981 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267909568 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-31-15-51.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267909982 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267910001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267910409 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is, are all prime numbers balloon? < 1267910413 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*balloons < 1267910422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, define balloon < 1267910448 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a number n is a balloon iff in every set of 2n-1 numbers there are n that sum to 0 (mod n) < 1267910468 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple to show balloons are closed under multiplication, but what's less simple is to show primes are < 1267910479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting < 1267910503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, and this has not yet been solved? < 1267910505 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1, 2, 3 and 5 are easily shown to be balloons < 1267910511 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not by me < 1267910515 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by anyone? < 1267910519 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i didn't even show they are closed under multiplication < 1267910528 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267910535 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was MissPiggy's work, or at least she used that idea in her proof of a special case < 1267910563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, is there any prize attached to this question? < 1267910565 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she asked me whether 100 is a balloon, i couldn't solve it (should've) < 1267910570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did anyone else solve it? < 1267910584 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder where you got the impression this is even a hard problem < 1267910606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well, otherwise you would just have consulted a text book to figure out how to prove it < 1267910609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than asking us < 1267910628 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted to ask that out loud because it sounded crazy. < 1267910677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267910678 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough to show they're closed under multiplication, but i wonder if it's possible to show they are closed under addition (that is, "can we prove all n are balloons by induction") < 1267910691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, why are they called balloons btw? < 1267910749 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually when you say you're proving a property of naturals by induction, you mean P(n) => P(s(n)), but you can also do induction on multiplication, the problem is you have an infinite number of base cases.... < 1267910773 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i asked mp what the problem was about, and she said "it has applications in hot air ballooning" < 1267910774 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267910780 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what that meant < 1267910784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, it does? < 1267910787 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i named them balloons. < 1267910803 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would've been an in-joke for her, i wasn't actually going to start talking about this here. < 1267910819 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it does?"= < 1267910821 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1267910829 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh err < 1267910831 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right the problem < 1267910836 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about being slow < 1267910837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I fail to see how it is useful for building or flying heated air balloons < 1267910837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267910865 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what applications it has, if it has applications there, i just quoted, and followed with "i have no idea what that meant". < 1267910881 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares what it's used for < 1267910882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, and I'm somewhat of an aerodynamics geek. Though admittedly I'm more interested in non-LTA aircrafts < 1267910888 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267910888 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1267910893 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you fly planes? < 1267910896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LTA = lighter than air) < 1267910902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, only in simulator alas < 1267910914 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flying a plane would be awesome < 1267910915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, a flight certificate is frigging expensive < 1267910921 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah prolly < 1267910925 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how expensive? < 1267910926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more than a driving license < 1267910941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well, depends on what type of aircraft < 1267910959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, for a small sports plane, 90 000 SEK or so a year ago when I checked < 1267910994 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i wouldn't call that "frigging" expensive if you have a job < 1267910999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, excluding fuel cost and so on < 1267911019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 000 Swedish kronor = 9 293.20938 Euros < 1267911024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says google < 1267911026 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well if you wanna fly a plane multiple times < 1267911032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, hm? < 1267911034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267911038 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know how much a sek is < 1267911060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh you need to fly a minimum distance every year to not loose your certificate after you finally have it < 1267911071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what said distance was < 1267911078 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1267911099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, they should do the same for driving licences < 1267911137 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw 2n-1 isn't just a random number, in fact all numbers have the property that there are 2n-2 numbers that don't have a subset summing to 0 mod n < 1267911145 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it sort of fascinating < 1267911188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, thank you for reminding me why I took CS instead of math ;) < 1267911194 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267911206 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my friend has lost most of his sight after getting a driver's licence, and doesn't use glasses < 1267911221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, "oops" < 1267911227 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is still allowed to drive < 1267911251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, also bi-yearly eye check or such for driving licenses would be a good idea < 1267911256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe every 5 years or such < 1267911279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have to find a reasonable interval to make it feasible yet actually be useful < 1267911368 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267911426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have this student-association-thing for people interested in flying planes here; I think they have some sort of special dealie so that you can get the certification a bit cheaper, though not by much. < 1267911451 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... why did you take cs instead of math? < 1267911523 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean math is prettier < 1267911525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "4700 - 6600 €" for the thing with a motor on it; and I think that includes fuel costs. (At least it says that fluctuation in fuel prices will affect that price.) < 1267911570 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants unicode support in his client < 1267911587 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what was that after "6600"? < 1267911603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS]: Probably the euro sign. < 1267911607 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267911625 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Showed up as å comma not-sign her.. < 1267911633 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here* < 1267911637 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a glider aircraft course for "1500 - 2200" eur, plus "miscellaneous costs (beer, sausages etc.)". < 1267911668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad the joke in the description doesn't really translate. < 1267911699 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't the university of turku be in helsinki :< < 1267911716 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have such a cool university there < 1267911716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so... why did you take cs instead of math? <-- math people say thing like " oh btw 2n-1 isn't just a random number, in fact all numbers have the property that there are 2n-2 numbers that don't have a subset summing to 0 mod n which makes it sort of fascinating" < 1267911726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interest which I don't share < 1267911741 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would be near it < 1267911771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Too bad the joke in the description doesn't really translate. <-- what is that joke? < 1267911780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't translate. :p < 1267911788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can try, of course. < 1267911793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could explain it < 1267911828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not much of a joke, really. But, here goes. < 1267911835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Opintojakson tavoitteena on oppia lentämään laitteella, jossa ei ole purjetta, eikä myöskään konetta. Laitetta kutsutaan siitä huolimatta purjelentokoneeksi, sillä sen siipi toimii kuin purje." < 1267911837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translated, that says: "The goal of the course is to learn fly a device, that does not have a sail, and neither does it have an engine. The device is still called sail-air-engine [literal translation of the components of the Finnish word for sailplane/glider aircraft], as its wing works like a sail." < 1267911864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267911896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, combining sail and engine in one word is quite weird :) < 1267911923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess sail-flight-engine would've been more literal. < 1267911941 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267911961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fi:lentokone (literally "flight-engine" or "flight-machine", but the joke works better with "-engine") is the general term for aircraft, they've just added fi:purje ("sail") in front. < 1267912003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:kone is quite a generic word; it can be en:engine, or en:machine, or en:device, or whatever. < 1267912034 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kone s 1 engine, apparatus, appliance 2 contrivance 3 machine" says the dictionary. < 1267912046 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish is so weird < 1267912053 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267912062 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267912070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, indeed < 1267912080 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well interesting is a bit of a technical term :P i say 2n-1 is interesting because 2n-2 isn't, there's a reason to choose just that particular number < 1267912090 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually mean this is interesting mathematics < 1267912107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1267912114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you said it was fascinating even < 1267912217 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right. true, that's not a technical term, that just means i really think the problem is interesting < 1267912222 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most because i've been working on it < 1267912225 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mostly < 1267912258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, wait, is "interesting" actually a well defined rigorous mathematical term? < 1267912265 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267912274 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1267912279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267912304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I always found it funny that "almost all" is actually rigorously defined < 1267912331 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah kinda like "group" is rigorously defined < 1267912341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267912351 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you don't know what a group is < 1267912351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I can't see why "group" is funny < 1267912359 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all integers between 1 and 1,000,000,000 are prime. < 1267912377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have no idea if that is true or not < 1267912391 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: why would you use the lebesque measure on integers? < 1267912398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "almost all", applied to discrete things, means "all but finitely many", aye? < 1267912401 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't < 1267912433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that is true for composites too! < 1267912438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would use cardinality as the measure, and it would not be true that almost all elements in that set are prime. < 1267912451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would you say "almost all" means in that context? < 1267912516 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all x \in S have property P w.r.t. measure m always means m({x \in S | P(x)}) = 0 < 1267912519 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1267912533 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*almost all x \in S have property P w.r.t. measure m always means m({x \in S | not P(x)}) = 0 < 1267912567 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that "almost all" sometimes means "all but finitely many". < 1267912570 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you leave the measure implicit with integers, it's cardinality, because the restriction of the lebesque measure is identically zero < 1267912633 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so we'd be using a metric m s.t. m(S) = 0 iff S is finite < 1267912644 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*measure < 1267912645 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1267912688 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know such measures < 1267912700 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is not exactly area) < 1267912712 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any restrictions on what's a measure? < 1267912738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, m(S) = 0 when S is finite, m(S) = 1 when S is infinite < 1267912749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the disjoint union of finitely many sets must be the sum. < 1267912757 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be additive, if you have two sets with empty intersection, then their union's measure is the sum of their measures < 1267912757 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modulo saying that right. < 1267912772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't have to give a measure to every set, right? < 1267912786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m(S) = 0 when S is finite, m(S) is undefined otherwise. :P < 1267912793 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, in a measure space we have a subset of measurable sets, usually < 1267912827 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that works, that's probably called the trivial measure < 1267912827 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better: m(S) is the limit as n approaches infinity of (the cardinality of the intersection of S with [-n..n])/(2n) < 1267912839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i actually thought that might be a nice definition < 1267912842 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that lim sup < 1267912852 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's additivie < 1267912855 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*additive < 1267912865 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm sure I could make it non-additive. < 1267912869 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i guess you could just say sets are measurable iff the limit exists < 1267912878 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has to be additive < 1267912881 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be a measure < 1267912890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean if it's lim sup, I'm sure I could find where it's not additive. < 1267912911 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the measure of the empty set needs to be 0, but that's all we require about a measure, i think < 1267912913 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267912916 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the set S of all integers n where sin(ln n) > 0, and its complement. < 1267912948 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267912955 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first of all what's that set? < 1267912967 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay somethign random < 1267912969 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1267912974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, make that sin(ln |n|). < 1267912983 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay you're right < 1267912986 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be lim < 1267913003 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've figured out what that set is? < 1267913004 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait... blergh < 1267913012 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tell me why that's a counterexample < 1267913022 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, do you know what that set looks like? < 1267913029 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267913039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graph sin(ln n); it's the set of all integers that are below it. < 1267913059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin(ln |n|), even. < 1267913122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mental graph will probably work better than an actual one. :P < 1267913140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a set where if you zoom out, it still looks pretty much the same. < 1267913153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think that's additivie <-- read that as "addictive" first time XD < 1267913181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses Wolfram Alpha < 1267913184 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the thing you're taking the limit of fluctuates between some number and some other number. < 1267913208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What isi it supposed to be? < 1267913236 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah true < 1267913256 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The complement of the set will likewise fluctuate, but out of phase; add the two, and you get something that is less than the sum of its parts. < 1267913262 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i realized lim sup might not work because of that, i now realize why sin ln works < 1267913270 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267913282 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's supposed to be what it is, and it is pretty much what it looks like. < 1267913304 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like female..>.> < 1267913313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topologist%27s_sine_curve.svg < 1267913759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Graph sin(ln n); <-- was that supposed to be CAS code for some CAS? < 1267913779 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267913783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267913794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I wouldn't be surprised if it were valid CAS code for some CAS. < 1267913826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why is sin(ln x) interesting? < 1267913831 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's valid wolframalpha code < 1267913843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, it isn't valid mathematica code I know < 1267913858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plots the function on his calculator < 1267913867 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a nice way to explain why lim sup is not a good measure < 1267913875 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-good < 1267913883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it's involved in a counterexample to oklokok's claim that using the limit superior in a certain place results in a measure. < 1267913886 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about mathematica < 1267913893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh < 1267913908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how does "limit superior" differ from "limit"? < 1267913911 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make all sets measurable < 1267913918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well iirc w|a is based on that syntax? < 1267913926 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it clearly isn't a measure < 1267913950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a measure? < 1267913951 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the limit superior of sin(x) as x approaches infinity is 1. < 1267913976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh. < 1267913986 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: essentially, it's the highest value that a function exceeds repeatedly forever. < 1267913987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how is limit superior defined then? < 1267914012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs a tutorial for math :/ < 1267914026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what about limsup y=x x→+inf ? < 1267914034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lim sup of a sequence of numbers is the lim of sups of {xi | i = n,n+1,...} as n goes to infinity < 1267914039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as normal limit? < 1267914050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I would say that that is positive infinity. < 1267914061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, same as normal limit then < 1267914066 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267914066 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267914089 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sin you'd take the limit as x goes to infinity of the sups of the sets {sin(y) | y >= x} < 1267914090 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is bound to have some definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_superior < 1267914123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and this sin log thing? < 1267914134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it's limit superior? < 1267914147 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviously 1 < 1267914154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal limit I *suspect* would approach 0 < 1267914160 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean on reals < 1267914173 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not obvious that it's 1 on integers < 1267914216 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's no normal limit for it < 1267914216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal limit exists iff the limit superior equals the limit inferior. < 1267914219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, are there cases where limsup is not defined? < 1267914236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, hm. for sin(x) there indeed isn't < 1267914249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The limit superior as something approaches infinity is always defined, as long as the function is defined everywhere. < 1267914250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hm < 1267914267 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i was gonna say earlier that lim sup and lim inf always exist on reals and lim exists iff lim sup = lim inf, but thought AnMaster wouldn't be interested < 1267914284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, ah < 1267914286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! < 1267914297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, if the function isn't defined everywhere, you might say that the limit superior is negative infinity. I don't really know. < 1267914320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267914321 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well right they always exist in the extended reals < 1267914335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you mean the function must all be completely defined then? < 1267914342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'd love to discuss this, but matters press. Onwards! < 1267914344 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all functions are completely defined < 1267914345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, it might not work if it isn't < 1267914358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, what is limsup tan(x) x->+inf? < 1267914393 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tan is a partial function < 1267914403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you mean it isn < 1267914410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* well defined everywhere < 1267914416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267914427 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if we skip the parts where it's not defined, then still arbitrarily far away you can find arbitrarily big values < 1267914431 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lim sup = infinity < 1267914455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Warrigal function isn't completely defined! < 1267914470 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's not what well-defined means, tan just isn't defined there. < 1267914486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you just said " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't actually correct it seems, at least not with the definition of function that I heard < 1267914521 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well-defined is when we have a definition, but it's wrong, tan's domain is just not the whole R < 1267914523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ln(x) is not defined for x<0 < 1267914536 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like it isn't defined if x is an apple < 1267914537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well I was confused by that line " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1267914560 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function is completely defined *on its domain* < 1267914567 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's a partial function. < 1267914605 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes we call these functions too, and just say "oh it's actually not defined here", i just don't happen to like that < 1267914629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, to me "function" includes both partial ones and normal ones < 1267914631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is wrong < 1267914636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is a word for both < 1267914646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be pretty concise < 1267914656 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"uorygl: Heck, if the function is ..." <<< obviously you'd define the lim sup of a partial function as the lim sup of the function's restriction on the part of its domain where it's defined. < 1267914656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functions and partial functions" is not an acceptable answer < 1267914685 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call it an MPF, for maybe-partial function. :P < 1267914694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that's silly < 1267914698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1267914701 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need a word for functions and partial functions, because one is the subset of the other < 1267914702 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267914704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as silly as oklokok is < 1267914715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, if one is the subset of the other < 1267914723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, then " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is false < 1267914730 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a function that might be partial, say it's a partial function < 1267914747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, or do you mean the reverse? < 1267914749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the sine function is a partial function? < 1267914751 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1267914754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that functions are a subset of partial functions? < 1267914762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes. and y=x is too! < 1267914763 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not, because it's functions that's a subset of partial functions, it's the subset containing functions that are completely defined on their domain < 1267914782 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267914789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, now you see why I took CS instead of math! < 1267914799 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: of course it's a partial function, it's just not a proper partial function ;) < 1267914801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we don't do silly things like that < 1267914802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, all this is terminology. < 1267914807 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: ah, of course. < 1267914811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nick changed back by popular demand! < 1267914820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yay! < 1267914834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, except someone is bound to ask "where is scarf" soon < 1267914835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have three different communities of people all yelling at me, what else can I do? < 1267914838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: haha < 1267914852 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to be silly by saying that 0 is a positive number and a negative number, but not a proper positive number or a proper negative number. < 1267914864 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267914869 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that < 1267914888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ooh better idea: a point is a triangle, but not a proper one < 1267914895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all three corners in the same point) < 1267914907 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All real numbers are irrational numbers, but some of them are not proper irrational numbers. < 1267914924 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267914927 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The opposite of "proper" is "degenerate", I believe. < 1267914934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a point is in fact a degenerate triangle, as is a line segment. < 1267914953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, now if we just could say that "all integers are negative, but some are not proper negative" :/ < 1267914971 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, my intuition says that integers are a closed set. < 1267914984 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the topological sense? < 1267914985 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In fact, they are a closed set. Yay for intuition!) < 1267914992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, in the intuitive sense. < 1267915008 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have an intuition, closed under what operation? < 1267915020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the intuitive version of the topological sense. < 1267915026 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267915027 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267915048 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say that for all concepts "blah", "degenerate blah" is the boundary of "blah" and "proper blah" is the interior of "blah". < 1267915059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So every blah is either a degenerate blah or a proper blah. < 1267915065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All integers are degenerate integers. < 1267915128 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All tall people are proper tall people, except for the shortest possible person X such that only tall people are taller than X, who is a degenerate tall person. < 1267915217 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The surface of a drop of liquid consists of degenerate liquid. < 1267915257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does closed mean in the topological sense? < 1267915267 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the complement is open < 1267915277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I don't know that either < 1267915287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume I know next to nothing about topology < 1267915291 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in topology, we just call some subsets open. < 1267915297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All ice is freezing cold, and most ice is proper freezing cold, but ice at its melting point is degenerate freezing cold. Some liquid water is degenerate freezing cold, but none of it is proper freezing cold. < 1267915306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except that a coffee cup and a doughnut are equivalent) < 1267915312 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a space containing points, and we say some arbitrary subsets are open < 1267915324 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively speaking, a set is open if it contains none of its boundary. < 1267915325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, what makes a given subset open? < 1267915331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a set is closed if it contains all of its boundary. < 1267915332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267915338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (0,4)? < 1267915348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to [0,4]) < 1267915354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, why didn't you just say it < 1267915357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. (0,4) is open and [0,4] is closed. < 1267915367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that all there is to it? < 1267915372 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not really. < 1267915372 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing, we can define anything to be open < 1267915379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, -_- < 1267915390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I define closed to be open! < 1267915419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are, in fact, topological spaces where something is closed if and only if it is open. < 1267915422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leaves cleaning up the mess that caused to oklokok < 1267915445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, paradox? < 1267915447 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the topological space of integers, every set is both closed and open. < 1267915468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It happens that "closed" and "open" aren't opposites at all in the topological sense. < 1267915496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267915513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, on the reals I find this hard.. < 1267915536 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the natural topology of reals does have nice properties < 1267915547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267915548 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another "definition" of openness: a set is open if for every point within the set, that point has a neighborhood that is also within the set. < 1267915551 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same properties the natural topology of every metric space has < 1267915563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, define neighborhood < 1267915574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, (that term makes me think of GOL) < 1267915587 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, a neighborhood is a set containing a point and its immediate surroundings. < 1267915601 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the natural topology of a metric space, a set is closed iff it contains its own boundary < 1267915628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formally, a neighborhood is a superset of an open set containing a point. < 1267915630 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a general topological space, boundary becomes meaningless < 1267915652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you generally define the boundary as the difference between the interior and the closure? < 1267915691 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the boundary is the thing that's not in the interior of the set or the interior of its complement < 1267915692 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1267915701 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how we define it < 1267915714 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: now, you may notice that every time we try to define openness, we then define the terms we used in terms of openness. Fundamentally, openness is whatever the topological space defines it to be; different topological spaces are different ways of defining openness on a set. < 1267915722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I noticed that < 1267915765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, at least it isn't like the circle being a specific conical section, but when you think about it, a cone is defined in terms of a circle < 1267915765 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the intuition uorygl gave you about topologies is actually just properties the natural topology of a metric space has < 1267915783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless there are other ways to define cones that I don't know about) < 1267915791 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in general those need not be true < 1267915805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1267915811 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they were always true. < 1267915819 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously you can just permute the reals and take the topology of the permuted version < 1267915857 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267915861 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you use one topology for one part of the intuition and another topology for other parts of it, sure. < 1267915879 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm, "immediate surroundings", that doesn't really mean much < 1267915887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1267915911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the real numbers, a point does not have even one surrounding that is immediate. :P < 1267915918 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AoC => a set is open iff all its points have an open set around them < 1267915926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about complex numbers < 1267915929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously? < 1267915932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is open and closed defined on those? < 1267915945 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same way as in R^2, as the product topology of R and R < 1267915961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I don't know how open is defined in R² < 1267915974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A set of complex numbers is open if and only if all its vertical and horizontal cross sections are open. < 1267915976 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is a metric space, so we define the natural topology by taking the open balls as a base for the topology < 1267915983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow ^2 produced ²!!! (^ is a dead key here) < 1267915999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever program ensured that happened: I love it < 1267916003 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay i guess you could also say R^2 is a metric space so we can do the ball thing there too < 1267916008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1267916022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only works for numbers < 1267916060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and +- ⁺⁻ < 1267916258 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267917589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: WANNA LEARN ABOUT RANGE CONCATENATION GRAMMARS? 8D < 1267917611 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do! < 1267917619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1267917621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1267917624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267917629 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267917650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a range concatenationgrammar is basically a context free grammar, but instead of non-terminal symbols you have pattern-matched "function applications" < 1267917669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might be best to give you an example < 1267917690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets consider the language { a^n b^n : n >= 0 } < 1267917698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could have the start symbol S < 1267917701 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the following rules: < 1267917707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(e) -> e < 1267917721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just says if you apply S to the empty string, you get back the empty string < 1267917729 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rule < 1267917736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(aXb) -> S(X) < 1267917755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says if you apply S to something that looks like aXb, where X is a variable, then you get back S applied to X < 1267917774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. S(amb) => S(m) => fail < 1267917786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the fail? < 1267917794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because theres no rule for S applied to m < 1267917799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just S(e) and S(aXb) < 1267917802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1267917812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more accurately < 1267917824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success is defined as reducing S(...) to the empty string < 1267917835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1267917838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so since theres no rule that reduces S(m) to the empty string, its a faulure. < 1267917847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, want to learn about music? < 1267917854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster: yes! < 1267917855 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to learn about music! < 1267917856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1267917858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too busy < 1267917862 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1267917875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for the sentence aaabbb, you have the steps S(aaabbb) => S(aabb) => S(ab) => S(e) => e < 1267917879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so aaabbb must be an S < 1267917880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wanted to derail the linguistics < 1267917891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this isnt linguistics this is formal language theory < 1267917901 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey AnMaster, what is tempo < 1267917917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also generate the language { a^n b^n c^n : n >= 0 } which is not CF < 1267917922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the following grammar: < 1267917927 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(e) -> e < 1267917931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, number of played notes per time unit. Commonly 1/4 notes per minute < 1267917938 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is a note < 1267917940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(aXbYcZ) -> S(XYZ) < 1267917954 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason that I should be learning Scheme over Common Lisp? < 1267917959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, uh. How to explain it? < 1267917966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: scheme is more elegant < 1267917970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has awesomemacros < 1267917970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I assume you are just being silly < 1267917974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but < 1267917995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no real "standard library" for practical use. Although I don't know if CL has that or not < 1267917996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly in that I do not know the definition, but I know how it's used? < 1267918000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, know what happens when you press one (1) key on a piano? Well one note is played < 1267918005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell, RCGs are practically, not not exactly, Prolog. lol < 1267918010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I don't know definition either < 1267918022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: depends on what you mean by standard library. Scheme has a shittonne of standard stuff. < 1267918022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I do know how to read scores however < 1267918040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267918049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that sounds wrong. what are they called in English now again < 1267918076 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :written music <=> scores, I believe < 1267918088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267918110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, just got confused over language there < 1267918114 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "<=>" <=> "is analogous to" < 1267918130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918135 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, no <=> means "is equivalent" < 1267918137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to understand <=> before i can understand <=> < 1267918138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1267918144 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, augur < 1267918147 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the thing < 1267918147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1267918166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a funky dream < 1267918175 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it break at the seams? < 1267918182 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh please, tell us of your funky dream :P < 1267918190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo! < 1267918220 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: "<=>" is analogous to "is analogous to" < 1267918223 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1267918238 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i was playing a video game where i was a guy working on a submarine and in order to get around parts of the sub you had to put on these big suits that would act to keep water out and to provide life support and propulsion < 1267918266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, it doesn't actually mean that normally < 1267918273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, normally it means "is equivalent with" < 1267918283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or iff < 1267918290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then iff <=> "<=>" < 1267918293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yes but, is '"is analogous to" is analogous to' analogous to '"<=>" is analogous to' < 1267918301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except grammatically) < 1267918305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no <-> is iff < 1267918310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<=> is mutually derives! < 1267918314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what? < 1267918324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iff is a single arrow < 1267918329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-> < 1267918333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but <=> is a double arrow < 1267918347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, <=> "is equivalent with" < 1267918347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double arrows are used for other things, for instance, the derives relation in formal language theory < 1267918358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sounds like a pretty bad submarine if it's full of water :P < 1267918362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, in math I mean < 1267918363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267918367 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in maths < 1267918367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: all submarines have water in them < 1267918370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ballast tanks, and such < 1267918387 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it sounds like a bad submarine if you had to go through ballasts to get to vital chambers X_X < 1267918389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this one was presumably on its way towards being fucked < 1267918398 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, AnMaster, in these maths of yours, what is the difference between "=" and "<=>"? < 1267918402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, x+2 = 4 <=> x=2 < 1267918411 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1267918412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also had a dream of some sort involving aliens < 1267918413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you don't write <-> there < 1267918419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does <=> mean "less than, equal to or greater than"? :P < 1267918423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, haha < 1267918429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaceship! < 1267918431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you Gregor! < 1267918438 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, D does have such an operator. < 1267918441 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means "comparable" < 1267918446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, anyway, = is "is equal" < 1267918459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, and equal is not the same as equivalent < 1267918464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, i need some caffeine < 1267918471 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im gonna go buy caffeine < 1267918478 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raw, and snort it. < 1267918482 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why can't I say x + 2 = 4 = x = 2, or x + 2 <=> 4 <=> x <=> 2? < 1267918485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, :D < 1267918486 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it now < 1267918488 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267918489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: if only! < 1267918523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if I said ( x+2=4 ) = ( x=2 ) < 1267918524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, because 4 = x = 2 and = has the property that you can reoder around it. Which means you get x = 4 = 2 < 1267918532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means 4=2 < 1267918535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absurd < 1267918545 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( x+2=4 ) = ( x=2 ) ! < 1267918554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true in the right modular arithmetic :P < 1267918557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, that has no meaning < 1267918564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sure but then you need to write that out! < 1267918593 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my client doesn't support the three-bar equal sign thing anyway < 1267918615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just copy and paste it from wikipedia's excellent list of math operators < 1267918618 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about ( x+2<=>4 )<=>( x = 2 ) ? < 1267918630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, again I don't know what that means < 1267918648 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267918659 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oops, the last "=" was supposed to be "<=>" < 1267918680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, don't know what it means that way either < 1267918682 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, is x + 2 equivalent to 4? < 1267918691 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it now < 1267918692 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1267918716 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267918731 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well, I guess there'd have to be a different symbol for "is equivalent to" and "is equal to" < 1267918747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, wikipedia claims both <-> and <=> are used for iff < 1267918750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if < 1267918814 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 ≡ 4 (mod 2) yay < 1267918816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: shut your fast < 1267918819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :face < 1267918822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267918823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267918834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut your fast face! < 1267918836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, well, I have never seen <-> used for iff before < 1267918874 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, does it make sense to have a symmetrical symbol for a directed relation? < 1267918889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er? < 1267918898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, how is iff directed? < 1267918912 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a condition, and the result, right? < 1267918958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but if the condition is true then the result is. And if the condition is false, so is the result < 1267918967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you could just as well turn it around < 1267918983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact <-> makes kind of sense. Since → is implies < 1267919002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iff <=> → in both directions < 1267919108 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in that latter statement, you're using "<=>" as "is equivalent to"? < 1267919116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes < 1267919121 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267919140 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a wee bit confusing for me, as I always use it as "is analogous to" < 1267919150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but iff => <=> iirc < 1267919164 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "=>" <=> ? < 1267919181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, ? < 1267919193 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "=>" mean? < 1267919204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the name for it, let me look it up. < 1267919262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, taking an example might be best < 1267919269 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267919280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = 2 => x^2 = 4 < 1267919284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse is not true < 1267919287 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267919290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1267919306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^2 = 4 => x = 2 is false < 1267919312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x could be equal to -2 < 1267919323 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explicitly one-directional equivalence < 1267919354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes, in the case above I used it because I got confused over if you could always replace <=> with iff (but the reverse should work) < 1267919375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, don't the math teachers at your university use these kind of symbols all the time? < 1267919385 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use iff, not <=> < 1267919417 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I started using "<=>" to mean "is analogous to", I just assumed it was a free (or at least obscurely-used) symbol < 1267919424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, mine use omm or <=> (omm "om och endast om", no I'm not sure how that phrase ends up with that abbrev either!) < 1267919431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that is Swedish btw) < 1267919453 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :endast ==(English)==> only? < 1267919461 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate endast < 1267919467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes < 1267919471 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267919471 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only < 1267919486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, or my irc notation of that would be: sv:endast = en:only < 1267919493 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1267919498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, which I don < 1267919505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* think is used for anything else < 1267919507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1267919520 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should have made aware the originating language < 1267919536 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :endast ==(Swedish --> English)==> only < 1267919576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, oh and <=> as "is equivalent" seems to generally be used between equations < 1267919593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when writing them on one line < 1267919624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? my college has enough paper to not have to do that, ha < 1267919645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, big enough whiteboards? < 1267919656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, also is college <=> university? < 1267919677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ~ seems to be used for row equivalence by at least one teacher < 1267919677 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yeah < 1267919688 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"row equivalence"? < 1267919701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, he teaches linear algebra < 1267919703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess < 1267919710 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1267919714 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267919714 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, nothing's coming to me < 1267919743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols lists it as "row equivalence" amongst other things < 1267919764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that link redirects to an article that doesn't mention that word explicitly < 1267919782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but on that meaning I'm somewhat confused. Generally it is used when row reducing a matrix < 1267919796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wikipedia says < 1267919798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A~B means that B can be generated by using a series of elementary row operations on A"