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01:25:28 <gm|lap> ok guys, i have a crazy brilliant idea or something
01:25:42 <gm|lap> a type of machine code which uses something like LZW compression
01:26:12 <gm|lap> so that it's really really compact
01:29:35 <Ilari> How to handle jumps?
01:31:31 <coppro> decompression is done JIT
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01:34:08 * oerjan inserts funny comment about x86 already working like that
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01:36:37 * oerjan vaguely recalls you from before
01:36:52 <adu> yes, i was here 2 months ago, and 6 months before that
01:37:14 <adu> I've been doing naughty things
01:37:21 <oerjan> quiet at the time, lots of befunge discussion earlier today
01:37:37 * adu <3 <3 Funge-98
01:38:22 <adu> i honestly don't know why people still make new VMs, Funge-98 is the most universal extensible VM out there
01:38:30 <oerjan> cpressey (the inventor) has recently started coming here again
01:40:40 <oerjan> oh right gm|lap just said something about compressed machine code
01:41:07 <adu> i like machine code
01:42:29 <adu> have you heard of VSM?
01:43:36 <adu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_System_Model
01:44:26 <adu> I've been considering making a VM for it, although the name VSM-VM might be confusing...
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02:12:40 <songhead95> Has anyone seen the language I posted?
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02:22:27 <coppro> /kill songhead95 goodbye, my client didn't
02:24:23 <pikhq> Hmm. Looks to me like an IRC noob.
02:24:35 <pikhq> Hello there, and welcome to Internet Relay Chat.
02:31:30 <pikhq> That's some exceptionally weird grammar there.
02:31:59 <songhead95> mhmm sometimes I translate something in google translate to like 6 languages, then get it back to english
02:32:29 <songhead95> Eventually "What is a man? A dirty pile of lies!" turns into "How many? A pile dirty secret!?
02:35:31 <songhead95> Hmmm... could google translate be turing-complete? Looks like a job for esolangs!
02:36:38 <songhead95> Sorry if I make stupid jokes. I am a noob to chat alltogether
02:36:58 <pikhq> Most of us were noobs at some point.
02:37:11 <pikhq> And stupid jokes are almost a pastime on IRC.
02:37:18 <pikhq> (seriously, have you read bash.org?)
02:38:13 <songhead95> Lol I haven't before but that is really funny!
02:40:06 <songhead95> I have to go learn the ways of the chat, and then come back when I am a master. bye :)
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02:40:29 <pikhq> I don't think he realises the way to do that is be in chat.
02:41:01 <oerjan> some people _do_ try to read the manual first
02:41:46 <pikhq> oerjan: There's a manual?
02:41:55 <pikhq> Sure wasn't when I IRC'd.
02:42:21 <oerjan> i assume that would be bash.org. i haven't read it myself.
02:42:42 * oerjan whistles half-innocently
02:43:26 <pikhq> oerjan: bash.org is a major IRC quote server.
02:44:06 <oerjan> i may have had a slight suspicion of that fact.
02:45:18 <Sgeo> There are never any new quotes in the top 100
02:45:35 <Gregor> qdb.us is a modicum better than bash.org
02:46:02 <pikhq> More actively maintained, at least.
02:52:22 <Sgeo> Huh. Until now, I thought Ocarina was a made up .. word thingy for some game
02:52:35 <pikhq> Genuine musical instrument.
02:52:48 <Sgeo> And not invented for the game either, according to wiki
02:53:36 <oerjan> octarine is made up, however.
02:54:30 * Sgeo shouldn't have had to Google that
02:54:33 <Sgeo> It's been a while
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02:59:30 * Sgeo blames http://qdb.us/140717
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03:17:11 <Sgeo> "THE COMMUNISTS HAVE CONTROL OF GRAND CENTRAL STATION AND THEY WILL BRING THE COMMIE TRAINS TO TOWN! WE MUST WARN THE MAYOR CHOO CHOO"
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03:31:37 <Wareya> http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock
03:31:53 <Wareya> Imagine four balls on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the ball nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first ball. The formerly first ball becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. Time works the same way.
03:46:10 * Sgeo gets confused at 2^O(c^n)
03:51:15 <oerjan> i guess it means that the _logarithm_ is O(c^n)
03:52:35 <oerjan> which is not the same as O(2^(c^n))
03:52:38 * Sgeo is still confuzzled
03:52:55 <oerjan> for example, 3^(c^n) is the former but not the latter
03:53:41 * Sgeo is too tired to think right now
03:54:00 <oerjan> because 3^(c^n) = 2^(logBase 2 3 * c^n), so just a constant multiplier after you take the logarithm
03:55:14 <oerjan> while before, it is an extra power - 3^(c^n) = (2^(c^n))^(logBase 2 3)
03:56:12 * Sgeo isn't even looking right now
03:57:08 <coppro> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0453/8747_0991_800.png
04:02:47 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood is on qdb.us!
04:05:33 <Sgeo> http://qdb.us/71165
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04:15:15 <Wareya> I got spam mail in base 64.
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04:28:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yeah, most IRC denizens are.
04:28:18 * Sgeo looks for himself
04:29:01 <Sgeo> I'm in 2 quotes (and a third that wasn't actually me)
04:29:08 <Sgeo> All 3 are apparently sucking
04:29:17 <pikhq> http://qdb.us/264456 This one's a better quote, anyways.
04:29:18 <Sgeo> The one non-me is the only one that's not negative
04:29:33 <Sgeo> http://qdb.us/search?q=Sgeo&order=real_score&sort=desc&limit=25&approved=-1
04:32:21 <pikhq> http://qdb.us/301257 Freaking zzo38.
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04:33:35 <oerjan> wait i searched for myself and got no results, but there i am?
04:34:16 * Sgeo mindboggles at zzo's choice of client
04:37:02 <oerjan> heck even i couldn't vote for that mess, and i seem to be the joke maker
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12:13:42 <Ilari> Esolang: Each cell in field can hold 32-bit number, and there are 32-bit registers R0 and R1. IP travels on the field and if cell it lands on contains valid instruction, it executes it...
12:14:04 <Ilari> Instructions: Unconditional turn to cardinal direction, and the same on condition that R0 != 0.
12:14:31 <Ilari> ... Rotate R0 left by 1 place. NAND R0 and R1 and store to R0...
12:14:59 <Ilari> And instructions to store/load R0/R1 from one of cardinally adjacent to IP cells.
12:15:32 <Ilari> Plus of course print R0 as character, read character to R0 and exit instructions.
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14:43:52 <oklopol> heh, uni friend wrote this interpreter thingie in clue, reading the language is like solving a fucking puzzle :P
14:44:17 <oklopol> (i guess that's sort of obvious)
14:57:22 <AnMaster> wait what? That doesn't seems plausible for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
15:01:03 <oklopol> and no not self-interpreter, just an interp for some random language
15:01:03 <oklopol> (actually the language called random, pun not intended)
15:01:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, is either of those on the wiki?
15:02:08 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Random ?
15:02:23 <oklopol> i didn't put any sort of comparison in the language, so he added another function for that for speedness; i just knew it was comparison, but not whether a<b => 1 or a<b => -1; cool thing is with clue, both work
15:02:34 <oklopol> yeah that's the language he made the interp for
15:02:46 <AnMaster> if it wasn't the one on the wiki
15:02:53 <AnMaster> as in, spec for the other clue
15:02:55 <oklopol> clue is not on the wiki yet, but it will be once i find the time to make a small spec.
15:03:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, or do you mean the game Clue?
15:03:14 <oklopol> although it seems you can just pick up the language from the ski interp
15:03:28 <oklopol> no, my language clue i've been talking about for like years
15:03:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe another name to not collide with the existing language clue?
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15:04:12 <oklopol> 1. i had the name first 2. why not collide?
15:04:23 <oklopol> 3. for my language, the name makes sense
15:04:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw I think I worked out how to do *W butterfly for bignum in a sensible way
15:06:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, basically, you use the smallest fixnum that could fit it, rounded up to 32*(2^n) where n is a positive integer.
15:07:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course the results in most fixnum interpreters will vary depending on if they use 32-bit or 64-bit cells
15:07:39 <AnMaster> so the operation is pretty useless for those
15:08:03 <AnMaster> (other cell sizes would cause similar problems of course)
15:10:19 <oklopol> haha, this is actually so cool, you can, to some extent, just change whatever conventions you wish in the stdlib, and chances are programs will still work
15:10:45 <oklopol> for instance, you can permute any function's parameter list in absolutely any way, and it's guaranteed no function can break
15:10:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: okay what the fuck
15:11:04 <oklopol> i have not, do not, and will not, ever, talk about any language other than clue
15:11:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh? what about oklotalk?
15:11:35 <AnMaster> you talked about some time ago
15:12:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, how do you ensure this property? Named parameters?
15:12:59 <oklopol> well you can't actually call a function in clue
15:13:27 <AnMaster> then bf have the same property!
15:13:56 <AnMaster> it doesn't even *have* functions so every property of the functions that don't conflict with not having functions is true there!
15:14:22 <oklopol> well if you consider the bf instructions the functions, then clearly you can call them, if you consider only functions functions, then yes, bf has the same property, it's just en empty property because there are no functions.
15:14:54 <oklopol> but i think the property is more interesting when it actually means something
15:17:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, then how do you use the functions in question in clue?
15:17:45 <AnMaster> can't* call the functions it *seems* to be a fairly useless property
15:18:47 <oklopol> well you see the paradigm is you give examples of computation, and you give functions the compiler can use
15:18:48 <AnMaster> I assume you do something tricky that actually makes it possible to somehow pass parameters to a function and cause it to execute sometime during the program run
15:18:52 <oklopol> and it finds an implementation
15:19:12 <oklopol> so you can not in any way rely on specifics like the order of parameters
15:19:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, does it error out if there is more than one possible function matching it?
15:19:59 <AnMaster> well there would always be unless you define all possible combinations of parameters
15:20:07 <oklopol> no, it returns the first one it finds
15:20:14 <oklopol> it's not specified which one
15:20:35 <oklopol> what did you mean by that combination thing
15:20:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, so does it interpolate the values between the examples?
15:21:14 <oklopol> it just brute-forces definitions until it finds one that fits.
15:21:39 <oklopol> or at least it's not required to do anything more intelligent
15:22:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, like say: sin(0)->0; sin(pi/4)->1/sqrt(2) sin(pi/2)->1
15:22:23 <AnMaster> and it takes an average if given pi/6 or such
15:22:28 <oklopol> you can study my ski interp if you want to learn more.
15:22:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm, nah you could give an example of what you mean
15:22:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, weighted average of course
15:23:25 <oklopol> hey, if a random uni dude could reverse-engineer the language in a few hours, i'm not even sure i'm ever gonna make a spec :)
15:23:59 <oklopol> i can show you the append function maybe
15:24:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, "a random" <-- insert joke along the lines if he designed that language
15:24:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, that should be interesting
15:24:22 <oklopol> append ~ <empty?>; car; cdr; cons
15:24:39 <oklopol> means "append uses the functions car, cdr and cons, and its condition function is 'empty'"
15:25:09 <oklopol> append ~ {. [], [1, 2, 3] -> [1, 2, 3] . [], [4] -> [4] }
15:25:13 <oklopol> two examples of the base case
15:25:42 <oklopol> append ~ {:. [1,2,3],[4,5,6] -> [1,2,3,4,5,6] : [2,3],[4,5,6] -> [2,3,4,5,6] }
15:26:01 <oklopol> example of recursive case, with :. being the call, : being the subcall
15:26:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, are there just those in the code or are there more examples you didn't paste here?
15:26:47 <oklopol> that's the whole append, you can write a shorter one ofc
15:27:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, how do you call it or whatever later
15:27:33 <oklopol> well say you want a function that appends lists together
15:27:42 <AnMaster> well you have that there don't you?
15:27:52 <oklopol> then you might have multiappend ~ <length>; append; ...
15:28:08 <oklopol> i mean an arbitrary amount of lists
15:28:20 <oklopol> [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] -> [1,2,3,4,5,6]
15:28:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean example of how you cause two specific lists to be appended
15:28:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, what about from user input then?
15:28:55 <oklopol> well you could write a function that appends two lists and returns the result
15:29:07 <oklopol> oh well i haven't decided yet, probably there's a main function that takes user input as a list
15:29:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, fine. What would it look like if it was supposed to use that function "append"
15:30:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, basically: lets say I somehow want to use your append function above to make the language calculate what appending [9,-3,4] to the end of [27,22,3] is
15:30:26 <AnMaster> that is, getting the result [27,22,3,9,-3,4]
15:30:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, using your above append function of course :)
15:30:48 <AnMaster> that is what I'm wondering about
15:31:12 <oklopol> multiappend ~ {. [] -> [] }
15:31:15 <oklopol> multiappend ~ {:. [[1,2], [3,4]] -> [1,2,3,4] : [[3,4]] -> [3,4]
15:31:15 <oklopol> :. [[],[1],[]] -> [1] : [[1],[]] -> [1]}
15:31:15 <oklopol> multiappend ~ <empty?>; append; cons; car; cdr
15:31:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, and where do the data I provided go into that? :)
15:31:56 <oklopol> well you'd call the compiled function append, prolly
15:32:18 <oklopol> you can put data into the functions by calling the python functions the compiler returns.
15:32:25 <oklopol> that's really a non-issue.
15:33:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, so it would work for that example above? It would be able to figure it out? Even using lists of different lengths too? Like appending to [27,22,3,472,283,172,3872] instead of that one above?
15:33:40 <oklopol> yeah that should work for all lists of lists.
15:34:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, err the original append function you gave doesn't take a list of list does it?
15:34:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, also how does the parameter order to it not matter, that I'm interested in too
15:35:55 <oklopol> [[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]] --> [1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3]
15:36:18 <oklopol> had one error, the function that tests if a list is empty is called "empty", not "empty?"
15:36:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: well consider cons
15:36:50 <oklopol> i just give cons as a helper function, "you can use this function in any way, if you find it necessary"
15:36:54 <oklopol> if you swap the args to cons
15:37:04 <oklopol> then the compiler will just use it, but swap the arguments.
15:37:33 <oklopol> well okay, in some cases it might find some other function first, because swapping the args made it harder for it to find the correct implementation
15:37:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean, append([4,5,6],[1,2,3]) seems like it should give a different result than append([1,2,3],[4,5,6])
15:37:58 <oklopol> but sofar no function has bee incorrectly implemented, all errors have been mine
15:38:13 <oklopol> well actually i don't think i've made any errors
15:38:46 <oklopol> if i had append in a program
15:38:50 <oklopol> and i reversed its arguments
15:39:00 <oklopol> then all functions that use append would just be compiled with the new order of arguments
15:39:16 <oklopol> otherwise they would be wrong, so the compiler would have to reverse them.
15:39:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, I guess compiling can take quite a bit?
15:39:53 <AnMaster> even for fairly simple functions
15:39:54 <oklopol> 0.13 seconds to compile the multiappend thing
15:40:00 <oklopol> 9 seconds to compile my ski interpreter
15:40:06 <oklopol> 1 second to compile the random interpreter
15:40:18 <oklopol> so yeah, a fuckload of time for even simple tasks
15:40:34 <oklopol> but it's just a crappy python hack
15:40:42 <AnMaster> well, yes considered how long it would take for most compilers
15:40:55 <AnMaster> possibly you might beat g++ but that is all ;)
15:41:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, is the source code for the interpreter online?
15:41:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, you should probably wait until you wrote a rough spec so you don't get everyone asking you to explain how it works ;)
15:45:13 <oklopol> i'll put the ski interp online too, you can just read that
15:45:22 <oklopol> for teh idiomatic clueness
15:45:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, I suck at ski..
15:46:03 <oklopol> okay i just more than doubled all compilation times by adding a tiny fix :)
15:46:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, always keep falling when skiing downhill. I'm reasonably okay at it on mostly flat ground
15:46:45 <oklopol> now it can call a function with many copies of the same objec
15:47:05 <AnMaster> I don't fall all the time there
15:47:31 <AnMaster> and I'm scared of heights, which doesn't really help avoiding falling when going downhill
15:48:03 <oklopol> but, many of the helper functions i wrote are pretty basic and not ski-specific
15:48:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, err? I said when going downhill
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15:58:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you open rar?
15:59:31 <oklopol> well anyway www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar
15:59:46 <oklopol> i'll make a spec and put it on esolang during march, hopefully
16:01:38 <oklopol> i'm assuming there won't be a massive surge of programs making that a de facto standard or anything.
16:03:09 <oklopol> CLUE INTERPRETER NOW ONLINE SOURCE SORT OF OPEN TOO.
16:03:27 <oklopol> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar
16:04:01 <oklopol> as i mentioned, someone reverse-engineered the ski-interp and wrote a random interp, so i'm assuming anyone who wants to play can just do that as well.
16:04:21 <oklopol> random, again, being the language random on esolang
16:05:03 <oklopol> the parser is not very good, it works pretty well as long as you don't make any errors, but doesn't really help you locate them.
16:05:50 <scarf> is there anything significant at all in the identifier names? or are they just compared for equality?
16:06:15 <oklopol> just compared for equality
16:06:39 <scarf> <is list?> and <id> are presumably builtins?
16:06:44 <oklopol> i might make identifier name matching fuzzy, because i typo them a lot and forget whether i had a "?" in the end, and they are always pretty long.
16:06:55 <oklopol> stuff.py contains a list of builtins
16:06:56 <scarf> and cons/car/cdr are library functions?
16:07:20 <scarf> why do some have angle brackets, and others not?
16:07:30 <oklopol> what doesn't have angle brackets?
16:07:40 <scarf> whereas <is list?> and <id> do
16:07:49 <oklopol> every function needs a "cond", which is <cond>
16:07:54 <oklopol> you can just have multiple helper lists
16:08:11 <scarf> oh, angle brackets mean that that function's a good one to try as a condition
16:08:31 <Sgeo> We need to invent branfuck
16:08:32 <oklopol> yep, and in fact it is what *will be* used as a condition
16:08:32 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b5v3v/yo_just_print_like_hello_world_bro/c0l4545
16:08:39 <oklopol> that's something you could actually drop from the language
16:08:39 <scarf> now I have to figure out how more-than-3 works
16:08:45 <scarf> well "more than 3"
16:08:48 <oklopol> the guy who made the random interp just used <id> there
16:09:33 <scarf> hmm, #0 and #1 refer to particular sorts of recursion?
16:09:40 <oklopol> nope, they are constants :)
16:09:47 <scarf> heh, just like in INTERCAL
16:10:00 <scarf> I've never seen something which has so much INTERCAL inspiration in the syntax and yet looks so different
16:10:26 <oklopol> it's pretty different from everything, afaik.
16:10:38 <scarf> still, if more than 3 is supposed to work on arbitrary integers, I don't have a clue how it works
16:10:46 <scarf> if it's only meant to work on 0..5, it's obvious
16:10:47 <oklopol> oh well probably just on naturals
16:11:11 <oklopol> this means 4 and 5 return 1
16:11:17 <oklopol> but they have to return 1 using the same rule
16:11:21 <scarf> aha, "if it's 0, 1, 2, or 3, return 0, otherwise return 1" is the function you're trying to produce
16:11:33 <oklopol> that means it will have to make that the "default branch" and make it return the constant 1
16:11:46 <scarf> because you can only test for one value in each conditional
16:11:54 <oklopol> there can be one default branch
16:12:26 <oklopol> basically it combines parameters somehow, and puts the result in the <cond> function, result is used to differentiate between branches, the {...} things
16:13:06 <oklopol> if only one of them contains multiple values, then that'll be the default branch
16:13:34 <oklopol> i mean if there are multiple examples in some branch, they all have to return the same result with cond, except for the default branch
16:14:01 <scarf> hmm, I keep using the wrong mouse button
16:14:18 <scarf> the left mouse button on this mouse has broken (it's ignoring about 2/3 of the clicks I use), so I swapped the buttons
16:14:42 <scarf> in particular, I keep trying to use the right mouse button to right-click, although I'm getting good for using it to left-click
16:14:54 <oklopol> why not just ask a 4-dimensional dude to swap your left and right?
16:15:53 <oklopol> btw tell me if you touch clue, i actually like reading programs in it
16:16:05 <oklopol> probably the first language ever with that property ;)
16:17:02 <oklopol> i should probably add comments to the language...
16:17:28 <oklopol> i guess you could say "the following is a comment ~ ..."
16:17:43 <scarf> theory: Google bought Youtube /just/ for leverage in getting rid of IE6
16:18:02 <scarf> oklopol: use the comment as an identifier name
16:18:05 <scarf> and give it a trivial definition
16:18:31 <scarf> like this is a comment, isn't this program great? ~ { . 0 -> 0 }
16:18:38 <scarf> but you'd need to repeat it again on the next line
16:18:57 <scarf> maybe it should be possible to put nothing before a ~ in order to effectively get a repeat of the previous identifier
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16:25:37 <cpressey> AnMaster: That sounds as reasonable as anything, given that butterfly seems inherently a fixed-size operation.
16:26:57 <AnMaster> <oklopol> well anyway www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar <-- downloaded
16:26:58 <oklopol> well actually the name of an identifier can contain arbitrarily many \n's
16:27:17 <oklopol> whitespaces are just stripped into " "'s
16:27:32 <oklopol> like "\n \t\n\n \n" -> " "
16:27:50 <oklopol> and yeah the repetition thing would be nice
16:28:12 <oklopol> the parser isn't very complete
16:28:58 <cpressey> the standards for parsers in the realm of esolang implementation are... pretty low, so i wouldn't worry about it. (I saw ALPACA's parser again the other day. Eeesh.)
16:29:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, what about the one of ick?
16:29:39 <AnMaster> it looked pretty okay considering the language it is supposed to parse iirc
16:29:54 <oklopol> the thing is this is so simple to parse you can do it as crappily as you want, and i wanted to watch scrubs while is coded, so...
16:30:02 <AnMaster> there is that hack because you need infinite lookahead for some construct in intercal
16:30:24 <AnMaster> other than that it is just fairly complex lex and yacc iirc
16:30:51 <scarf> AnMaster: yep, the lex and yacc are tied into each other, although not quite as much as in gcc
16:31:08 <oklopol> scarf: so did you master the language already? :)
16:31:22 <scarf> I have work to do, even though I'm on a non-work connection
16:31:30 <AnMaster> scarf, well... doesn't the yacc part depend on what output exactly the lex part produces in all cases?
16:31:42 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, but also vice versa
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16:31:59 <oklopol> it's just what other people do is always more interesting than the things i do myself, when it comes to my languages
16:32:01 <scarf> which is mentioned as being necessary sometimes in the lex/yacc documentation, but which seems silly to anyone who knows about parsers
16:32:10 <AnMaster> scarf, well you could say that also exists, because if you change the lex part without changing the yacc part the whole thing might break
16:32:28 <AnMaster> unless you meant in some other way?
16:33:04 <scarf> AnMaster: I mean, the actual tokens produced depend on the current state of the parser
16:33:15 <AnMaster> scarf, non-work connection? Public wlan? Finally have internet at home?
16:33:24 <scarf> AnMaster: a friend's house
16:33:36 <scarf> I've been connecting from here for ages, just most people weren't paying attention
16:33:51 <AnMaster> scarf, that means it is context dependant in some rather strange way doesn't it?
16:34:00 <AnMaster> scarf, you have a cloak though
16:34:10 <scarf> to be precise, whether a paren-equivalent is opening or closing is context-dependant
16:34:17 <scarf> and I was doing this from well before I was cloaked
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16:34:41 <AnMaster> scarf, the reverse dns with something like bham in one part of it?
16:34:59 <scarf> the other one's virgin media
16:36:01 * scarf goes back to the Phorm website
16:36:12 <scarf> I'm effectively polling it by hand to see if and when they decide to turn it on for virgin media
16:36:23 <scarf> it'll be a distaster, but not one that people notice right away
16:37:09 <oklopol> i need to add io to clue so i can make an irc bot
16:38:40 <oklopol> probably just something like >> after the output of a function to also output bytes or << after the input of a function to read bytes
16:39:35 <oklopol> Hello world! ~ {. 0 -> 0 >> [72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33] }
16:40:39 <scarf> would you need to explicitly specify >> [] for other cases if you specify >> anywhere, or would that be assumed?
16:42:48 <scarf> AnMaster: basically, it's a targeted advertising service
16:42:54 <scarf> the controversial bit is the amazing way it operates
16:43:05 <scarf> which basically involves multiple redirects for every single http request you make ever
16:43:26 <scarf> and MITMing every website on the internet to inject cookies
16:43:32 <AnMaster> scarf, that sounds like it shouldn't be legal for various reasons.
16:43:35 <scarf> (it doesn't trigger on https, if you were wondering)
16:43:43 <scarf> AnMaster: yep, some people think it isn't
16:43:44 <AnMaster> Net neutrality comes to mind amongst other things
16:43:54 <scarf> they haven't actually dared turn the thing on yet; there's meant to be an opt-out
16:44:11 <AnMaster> scarf, so I assume it will be taken to court as soon as it is turned on
16:44:26 <scarf> oh, someone will probably try
16:44:38 <oklopol> okay, more interesting: echo n ~ {:. 5 <<[7] -> _ >>[7] : 4 -> _ }
16:45:00 <scarf> AnMaster: they might not be able to get the funding
16:45:04 <oklopol> and of course, echo n ~ {. 0 -> _ }
16:45:25 <scarf> what does the underscore mean again?
16:45:48 <oklopol> i just thought it might be nice to be able to say the return value doesn't matter
16:46:04 <AnMaster> scarf, funding? How so? After all you don't need funding in case the police catch a thief that stole something from you.
16:46:04 <scarf> heh, it's a RealWorld
16:46:14 <scarf> AnMaster: hmm, you mean a criminal rather than civil case?
16:46:24 <AnMaster> scarf, ah right forgot that difference
16:46:24 <scarf> you'd need to persuade the Crown Prosecution Service to take it
16:46:38 <oklopol> scarf: actually it's just the empty list, except you don't have to put an explicit #[] in the helper list
16:49:03 <oklopol> hmm okay i have sort of a problem
16:49:22 <oklopol> if <<[5,6] is an example, "if you get bytes 5 and 6 as input, ..."
16:50:04 <oklopol> always two bytes, always till eof, always two, unless there are other examples with different lengths, in which case till eof?
16:50:22 <oklopol> (two in the case of an example of length 2)
16:50:38 <oklopol> well in any case maybe IO isn't the first thing i should add
16:50:53 <oklopol> although i would definitely like to see pong in this.
16:50:58 <oklopol> would be so outta character
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16:51:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, line buffered is probably sanest for an esolang
16:51:44 <AnMaster> and then I guess whole line makes most sense
16:51:47 <oklopol> but... i hate line buffered :-(
16:52:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, well then, I can't work out sane semantics for it
17:01:32 <scarf> something's up with Yahoo mail, it seems
17:01:50 <scarf> I can't access the site at all in Firefox (I just get errors), and w3m goes into an infinite META REFRESH loop after logging in
17:02:19 <scarf> as in, the page has a META REFRESH with a timeout of 0 on, and w3m is honouring it for some reason
17:05:27 <scarf> seems to be a problem with the connection itself (tried a different computer on the same router)
17:05:28 -!- tombom has joined.
17:05:30 <scarf> and the DNS is fine
17:06:00 <scarf> hmm, working again now
17:06:02 <scarf> that was suspicious
17:10:54 <scarf> also, I just typed my root password in another channel by mistake
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17:13:40 <AnMaster> scarf, so change the password now
17:14:03 <scarf> actually, I changed it even before I typed it, somehow
17:14:12 <scarf> as in, I typed the old password in-channel rather than the new one
17:16:49 <scarf> just one place left to change it; do you know how to change the master password for the KDE password wallet?
17:17:03 <scarf> not that I care too much, because there's only one password /in/ that wallet and it's a publically-available one anyway
17:17:19 <AnMaster> a publically-available password?
17:17:38 <scarf> AnMaster: in this case, as an anti-spam measure
17:17:52 <scarf> the password and the place you have to enter it are in two completely separate places
17:18:14 <scarf> guarding a file-upload server
17:18:56 <scarf> sort-of; public, but very specific purpose
17:19:11 <scarf> it's for uploading Enigma levels
17:23:23 <AnMaster> interesting. SVG defines colours like "mediumspringgreen"
17:23:24 <scarf> MissPiggy: when the next version comes out, you'll find many levels by me
17:23:31 <MissPiggy> scarf oh cool! what sort of levels?
17:23:45 <AnMaster> (that one is rgb( 0, 250, 154) )
17:23:45 <scarf> mostly intelligence levels (as in, traditional puzzle-style)
17:23:48 <MissPiggy> I guess there's a turing machine in enigma now.....
17:23:51 <scarf> but there are all sorts
17:23:51 <AnMaster> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/types.html#ColorKeywords
17:23:56 <scarf> and no, I didn't add a turing machine
17:24:00 <MissPiggy> scarf well that's exciting! when does it come out?
17:24:07 <scarf> MissPiggy: no release date yet, but they're getting closer
17:24:26 <scarf> they're in a string freeze for internationalisation at the moment
17:24:38 <scarf> and if they're like a typical open source project, that's getting near a release
17:25:01 <scarf> umm, it's a rather less strict sort of string freeze than typically, though
17:25:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Darn, I missed that; I just read the bit about having to support the CSS names
17:25:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't know if it supports those embedded in css in the svg
17:25:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or just in the svg directly
17:26:23 <AnMaster> "The format of an RGB value in hexadecimal notation is a '#' immediately followed by either three or six hexadecimal characters. The three-digit RGB notation (#rgb) is converted into six-digit form (#rrggbb) by replicating digits, not by adding zeros. For example, #fb0 expands to #ffbb00. This ensures that white (#ffffff) can be specified with the short notation (#fff) and removes any dependencies on
17:26:23 <AnMaster> the color depth of the display."
17:26:36 <AnMaster> "removes any dependencies on the color depth of the display"?
17:26:36 <Deewiant> Presumably in the SVG directly only
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17:27:28 <cpressey> I love the term "string freeze" for some reason. Sounds like it should be a kind of candy.
17:27:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, CSS3 seems to have these extra ones
17:27:36 <AnMaster> but that is still a draft iirc
17:27:38 <AnMaster> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/
17:28:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yeah you can't use those portably yet in CSS
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17:29:31 * Sgeo has homework he needs to do NOW
17:30:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway most of those named colours would expand rather than save space
17:31:10 <AnMaster> snow varies widely and is in sunshine definitely extremely white
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17:31:58 <AnMaster> the text I actually selected and copied was: "snow #FFFAFA"
17:32:07 <AnMaster> somehow it was lower cased when pasting
17:32:46 <AnMaster> and why wasn't it copied that way
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17:38:29 <Deewiant> text-transform is just how to display it, of course it should copy the text itself
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17:40:14 <AnMaster> on the other hand I don't know if the spec says it should not be processed when copied
17:40:29 <Deewiant> It does exactly what I'd expect.
17:40:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why does it make sense
17:40:41 <AnMaster> to not copy the text transform
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17:41:04 <Deewiant> Because that's just a style note on how to display it
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17:46:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know that mycology's TURT test is broken right?
17:46:36 <AnMaster> <rect x="-1" y="-1" width="3" height="3" style="fill:#000001;stroke:none"/>
17:46:36 <AnMaster> <circle cx="0" cy="0" fill="#000001" r="0.25"/>
17:46:36 <AnMaster> <circle cx="1" cy="1" fill="#000001" r="0.25"/>
17:46:54 <AnMaster> as in, if it wasn't for svg you couldn't even be sure the circles were there
17:52:30 <Deewiant> Hmm, I thought it was white background with two dots
17:52:41 <Deewiant> Maybe it's the same bug in CCBI's colour stuff ;-)
17:52:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't think the error is on my side
17:52:49 <Deewiant> But I seem to recall that !Befunge rendered it as such
17:53:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't have !befunge around to test with
17:53:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I seem to recall that when I first implemented TURT in cfunge and found that the ccbi implementation was completely broken, it didn't ever use the bg colour
17:54:34 <Deewiant> I recall one bug being that it didn't "clear paper with colour", it just reset the bg colour
17:54:55 <Deewiant> It just didn't overwrite the dots and paths etc
17:55:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think efunge currently has the least buggy turtle implementation
17:58:02 <MissPiggy> looking at clue impl. and I am just like HUH??
17:58:50 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, it is somewhat compact python
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17:59:05 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, and uncommonly it uses lambda
17:59:22 <AnMaster> for python that isn't quite as common normally as it is in that file
17:59:59 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, the key to reading it is realising that indention defines the block
18:00:29 <MissPiggy> I know that much python but that's all
18:00:30 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, no {} or comma-vs-period or such
18:01:06 <AnMaster> MissPiggy, also python's OOP seems used in there
18:01:10 <oklopol> the implementation lacks abstraction in maaaany places, because most of the thing was coded while watching scrubs
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18:01:58 <MissPiggy> in terms of writing code that does miracles while not even looking
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18:22:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there? Would you consider it allowed for FPDP/FPSP instructions to reflect on NaN and +/-inf?
18:22:46 <AnMaster> after all the spec doesn't define it to use IEEE semantics iirc
18:23:29 <Deewiant> IIRC the spec says something like "A (a b -- n) add fp numbers"
18:23:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but that doesn't define it to be IEEE floating point
18:24:07 <Deewiant> Like all of Mike's, there is practically no spec
18:24:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also does FPDP require two cells per value? I don't remember
18:24:37 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how Mycology will react to reflection on those though
18:26:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and FPDP spec doesn't say it has to be two cells
18:26:57 <Deewiant> Of course not, that's just an implementation detail for 32-bit funges
18:27:10 <Deewiant> (Who assume "double precision" = "64-bit")
18:28:08 <Deewiant> The fact that it uses the term "double precision" does sort of imply IEEE 754 semantics though, since double is an IEEE 754-1985 term
18:33:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Alternatively, you could argue that it's supposed to use the platform's "standard" Fortran compiler's floating point formants, since "double" is also a FORTRAN term.
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18:35:07 <fizzie> It's a silly name; "double what?" (Double the size of single, of course, but *still*...)
18:35:39 <cpressey> "I'd like a double bacon cheeseburger, please, with double interpreted as from IEEE 754-1985"
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18:36:04 <fizzie> They'll give you a burger with 64 discrete bits of bacon.
18:36:24 <fizzie> Of which one is the sign bacon.
18:39:02 <scarf> !c printf("\u0082");
18:39:23 <scarf> !c printf("\u00c0");
18:39:30 <scarf> !c printf("\u00c8");
18:39:37 <scarf> !c printf("\u00a8");
18:39:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: IEEE 754-2008 calls it binary64, which is a bit less silly.
18:41:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but on the other hand a "binary64 bacon cheeseburger" is more silly.
18:42:03 <scarf> incidentally, why does unicodesnowmanforyou.com use javascript?
18:42:06 <scarf> it seems to work just as well without
18:42:40 <fizzie> I think the scripts there are just google-analytics code.
18:48:01 <AnMaster> I should encode it as tagged tuple BCD encoded 66 bit floating point (why? because 65 bits would make the single format 32.5 bits, which is quite hard to implement)
18:48:08 <AnMaster> I doubt mycology would like that
18:48:55 <AnMaster> scarf, because it would be a DS9K implementation
18:50:03 <AnMaster> scarf, or did you mean "why wouldn't mycology like that"?
18:50:20 <AnMaster> well, it would not have inf or NaN but would reflect on those to begin with
18:50:42 <AnMaster> heck technically the spec would allow me to change to any delta for those
18:52:17 <Deewiant> Just because the spec doesn't say you're not allowed to do something doesn't mean you should do it ;-P
18:53:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true. Still if I implemented it in efunge it will be as opaque values on stack and reflect on nan/inf
18:53:42 <AnMaster> I could do something like the "union with integer" trick, sure
18:54:02 <AnMaster> it encourages bad programming practise in programs using FPSP/FPDP
18:54:04 <fizzie> Heh, funny motd from the shell server, when you interpret (like I did) the second part as a consequence of the first:
18:54:04 <fizzie> "Matlab Parallel Computing Toolbox has been installed for Matlab R2009b (latest version, run with 'matlab') and runs on any cluster machine or 64-bit Linux workstation. Scanning and sending documents from photocopier in corridor B works now."
18:54:20 <AnMaster> and depend on endianness and various stuff
18:55:51 <Gregor> fizzie: I write all my scanning software in matlab.
18:58:00 <Wareya> I can't imagine an object balancing a little as possible in four dimensions
18:58:13 <Wareya> like in 2d you have something halfway off a cliff
18:58:36 <Wareya> and in 3d you have something 1/2 off a corner in both directions
18:58:43 <Wareya> so it's on by only 1/4
18:59:04 <MissPiggy> imagine things balancing on a point
18:59:07 <Wareya> in 4d you have something 1/6 or 1/8 off an object
18:59:39 <cpressey> Uh, if only 1/4 of the surface area of a book is supported by a table under it... well, that doesn't sound balanced to me...
18:59:43 <Wareya> I made this earlier for someone else: http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png
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19:00:06 <Gregor> cpressey: If the table is round with a hole in the middle, and the book's edges are all supported by the ring of the table, then it 's perfectly balanced :P
19:00:29 <Wareya> gregor: I'm dealing with solid objects
19:00:43 <cpressey> Oh great, now tables with holes in them are gaseous.
19:01:00 <cpressey> I should probably break from lunch before these unit tests drive me crazy.
19:01:03 <Gregor> But yeah, that puck would not stay on the table, 1/4 supported.
19:01:16 <Wareya> gregor: it would approach 1/4
19:01:27 <Gregor> Ahhh, 1/4 is the tipping point you're saying.
19:02:25 <Wareya> but I can't imaging that king of interaction on 4D
19:02:53 <cpressey> Well, I just tried it with a pad of paper, and, yeah, I guess 1/4 is the approachable value for tipping.
19:03:53 <Wareya> I'm not sure if the approachable value in 4D is 1/6 or 1/8
19:05:33 <Wareya> but then the interaction is happening on a 3D surface
19:07:30 <Wareya> it could either be 1/2^surfacedimensions or 1/(dimension-1)^dimension
19:08:01 <Wareya> but I assume without testing that those are the same?
19:19:58 <Ilari> I think 1/8 too (1/2^d, where d is number of dimensions in contact surface).
19:21:02 <Wareya> Ah, I meant 1/d*2 - d being the contact surface's scope
19:21:54 <Wareya> rather than 1/(dm-2)^dm
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19:51:20 <oklopol> what are you talking about?
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19:53:45 <oklopol> so what does "approaches 1/4" mean
19:54:13 <Wareya> you can approach 1/4 before I woudln't know what happens between falling and staying on
19:54:27 <oklopol> approach 1/4 in what sense?
19:54:45 <oklopol> surface area of the object?
19:54:51 <oklopol> that's in contact with the table
19:55:09 <Wareya> the surface in contact must be 2D
19:55:18 <cpressey> It's because the centre of gravity of the object must go off the table if anything less than 1/4 of the surface area is supported
19:55:43 <Wareya> we're assuming an object like a perfectly balanced disk
19:55:44 <oklopol> the surface in contact must be 2d?
19:56:00 <scarf> cpressey: what if the object is, say, a really large disc, with a relatively small hole in the middle that's still larger than the table, with a thin beam across the middle that lies on the table?
19:56:11 <scarf> that way, the centre of gravity is over the table even though most of the object isn't
19:56:42 <oklopol> and we assume the table is what shape?
19:56:42 <cpressey> scarf: That object is not uniform density, then, I think
19:56:45 <Wareya> why have a hold in the middle latger than the table?
19:56:50 <scarf> cpressey: it is, but not convex
19:57:00 <scarf> Wareya: ooh, good point, that isn't needed
19:57:07 <scarf> you could just have a disc larger than the table
19:57:18 <scarf> so I suspect that the missing assumption is that the table is infinitely large
19:57:35 <Wareya> I'm assuming that the table is larger than the object, actually
19:57:36 <cpressey> Or at least that the object fits entirely on the table
19:57:39 <scarf> I love that sort of assumption
19:58:03 <Wareya> I'm thinking of a very specific kind of case; like the plate I have on the corner right here
19:58:21 <oklopol> is the edge of the table a (d-2)-dimensional line?
19:58:46 <Wareya> it doesn't matter as long as the table is flat and its coners are square
19:58:50 <oklopol> because then obviously 1/2 of the object must be supported
19:59:04 <Wareya> and I'm on the corner, not the edge
20:00:00 <cpressey> scarf: I'm also assuming a 90 degree corner.
20:00:19 <cpressey> A 60 degree corner, well I'm not sure what fraction has to be supported, but it's less than 1/4.
20:00:22 <oklopol> okay it's obviously 1/8 in four dimensions
20:01:22 <oklopol> the surface is a ball one eight of which must be inside the cube
20:02:01 <oklopol> can't really visualize 5 dimensions, but it clearly grows exponentially
20:02:03 <cpressey> OK, if it's a disc, and a 60 deg corner, then 1/6. I was still thinking "book" though.
20:02:10 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Uh, if only 1/4 of the surface area of a book is supported by a table under it... well, that doesn't sound balanced to me... <-- you could have it balanced on a point in the middle. can't you?
20:02:14 <Wareya> I'm thinking of the 4D case, though
20:02:19 <AnMaster> that means almost none of it is supported
20:02:54 <Wareya> I'd call the 1/4 a singularity
20:03:14 <Wareya> or, infinitely before 1/4
20:03:40 <oklopol> you do realize this is just whether the center is on the surface?
20:03:52 <cpressey> oklopol: Yes, well I mentioned that anyway
20:04:08 <oklopol> the 1/(2^(d-1)) thing just comes from not just having the point, but a certain sort of cube around it
20:04:10 <AnMaster> Wareya, am I not right about the balance in middle thing?
20:04:32 <cpressey> AnMaster: the other assumption: table is larger than object
20:04:58 <cpressey> rather, objects fits entirely on table
20:05:22 <Wareya> http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png
20:05:30 <AnMaster> cpressey, what if the object is heavier on one side
20:05:46 <AnMaster> wasn't clearly stated at the beginning!
20:05:50 <oklopol> yeah cpressey, what if we make the problem even more boring
20:06:01 <cpressey> It's in your scrollback and/or the log, just not at the beginning
20:06:08 <AnMaster> Wareya, also what if we don't have a equal height object
20:06:19 <oklopol> (that was to generalize what AnMaster said)
20:06:22 <cpressey> oklopol: the more interesting the problem, the more boring the result :)
20:06:23 <Wareya> it needs to have infinite rotational symmetry
20:06:23 <AnMaster> then couldn't it stick out more than half
20:06:27 <Wareya> and it must be concave
20:06:47 <oklopol> cpressey: i prefer "the more complicated the problem, ..."
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20:07:02 <AnMaster> Wareya, does it need a flat top or not?
20:07:10 <Wareya> oklopl, I take issues and I simplify parts of them to try to disprove things
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20:07:46 <AnMaster> Wareya, so not a perfect circle?
20:08:03 <Wareya> even if you need to ignore the "infinite number or sides" idea or a polygon
20:08:16 <Wareya> and it doesn't need infinite rotational symmetry, it needs 90 degree rotational symmetry
20:08:27 <AnMaster> Wareya, well this is boring. Too specific problem
20:08:47 <AnMaster> which agrees with oklopol's correction of cpressey's suggestion
20:08:54 <AnMaster> Wareya, I don't know the 4D thing either
20:09:08 <AnMaster> Wareya, but do a drawing in 5D for me :)
20:09:27 <Wareya> http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3928/sagitor.png
20:09:53 <oklopol> 4d is pretty easy to visualize, because you just need to look at a 3d-segment
20:10:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah I have seen a 4D screensaver. Confusing!
20:10:14 <Wareya> then the collision is 3D
20:10:20 <Wareya> which I can't stand :(
20:11:19 <AnMaster> Wareya, hm. isn't it basically that one specific point needs to be supported
20:11:30 <AnMaster> not sure what the name of it is
20:11:34 <Wareya> the object must be smaller than the static one
20:11:50 <AnMaster> could only remember the Swedish word
20:11:52 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not that hard to visualize the 3d projection of a 4d object, and the screensaver would project it even further
20:11:56 <Wareya> and the static one should be analogous to a rectangle
20:12:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, was some hypercube turning iirc
20:12:16 <Wareya> oklopl: I can deal with 4D, but not collision inside of it.
20:12:23 <oklopol> but you can also "visualize" 4d using color and density etc
20:12:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: how's that confusing
20:12:40 <AnMaster> Wareya, anyway yes I think it basically needs center of gravity to be supported
20:12:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, not everyone finds 4D easy to think in!
20:12:54 <Wareya> that's not what I'm wondering, though.
20:12:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, not everyone is like you
20:13:06 <AnMaster> Wareya, well then what exactly are you asking?
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20:13:25 <oklopol> well i mean it's just a 2d projection of the movement
20:13:32 <AnMaster> Wareya, how much of the thing needs to be supported
20:13:45 <AnMaster> Wareya, well "whatever is enough to cover the center of gravity" is my answer
20:14:00 <cpressey> It should be fairly easy to generalize the concept of center of gravity of a uniform-density, symmetrical object, to /n/ dimensions.
20:14:14 <cpressey> It mean, it's the geometric center.
20:14:58 <oklopol> now the question is, do we need a vector space, or could we also do it for measurable metric spaces?
20:16:01 <oklopol> a point is central if it's close to all the other points, and we can measure the sets of points at distance > d, so we can make this precise
20:16:05 <cpressey> Since we apparently don't find 4D difficult to visualize :)
20:18:02 <AnMaster> Wareya, btw what do you need this for?
20:18:54 <oklopol> so let's see, in n dimensions, we'd take the z0 such that the integral of (z - z0)^(smth) over the object is as small as possible?
20:19:02 <oklopol> that's at least some sort of center
20:19:36 <Wareya> I was wondering what the fraction would be for the fourth dimension
20:19:40 <Wareya> whether it were 1/6 or 1/8
20:20:11 <Wareya> in the specific case of a shape with a convex, 2d base and 90 degree rotational symmetry along its vertical access
20:20:16 <AnMaster> Wareya, now figure it out for 1d (I'm not even sure what it would mean there)
20:20:51 <Wareya> you can't have an object rotate in 1 dimension
20:21:22 <Wareya> so it would make sense that it's 1/8
20:21:43 <oklopol> the sequence is 1/2^n as mentioned
20:23:26 <oklopol> the surface touching the table is (d-1)-dimensional, consider the unit ball in d-1 dimensions, the table surface will be {(x1,...,xn) | xi > 0 for all i}, that is, the infinite cube spanned by the positive axes.
20:23:39 <oklopol> so we have d-1 axes, and we take half of each
20:24:22 <Wareya> it would be easier to use the analog of a cyninder to the dimension
20:24:32 <Wareya> than the analog of a sphere
20:24:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, unit ball as in unit circle?
20:24:38 <Wareya> http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png
20:24:42 <AnMaster> shouldn't that be unit sphere?
20:24:44 <oklopol> the disc is uniform, so we just need to consider the surface touching the table
20:24:58 <Wareya> if you use a sphere, the surface would be a singularity
20:25:32 <cpressey> Wareya: it's a balance tipping point, you're dealing with a limit anyway.
20:25:49 <Wareya> and if you deal with a limit and a singularity ,then what?
20:25:57 <oklopol> no, it's not a unit sphere. consider the concrete dimensions: in 2d we have a line as the unit ball of d-1 dimensions, in 3d, we have a 2d disc, in 4d, we have a normal 3d ball
20:26:34 <cpressey> "singularity" is just another way to say "limit", isn't it?
20:26:49 <Wareya> a singularity uses a limit to describe itself
20:26:57 <cpressey> Where is the "singularity" in this sphere, then?
20:27:05 <oklopol> Wareya: there's no "analog of sphere" or "analog of cylinder", by a d-1 dimensional ball i mean the natural embedding of a d-1 dimensional ball into a d dimensional space
20:27:22 <Wareya> the contact area of a 3D sphere against a 3D rectangular prism can only be a singularity
20:27:26 <oklopol> so in 3d, you'd have a disc, in 2d, you'd have an etc
20:27:45 <oklopol> so, what the fuck is a singularity?
20:28:17 <cpressey> Wareya: so the contact area is lim(n->0), which sounds like a limit to me
20:28:27 <Wareya> the "singularity" of a computer screen is a pixel
20:28:49 <oklopol> sounds like some sort of intuitive nonstandard analysis
20:29:34 <Wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_singularity
20:30:27 <cpressey> Nothing discontinuous in the sphere/table setup, though.
20:30:44 <oklopol> why do you need a "singularity", can't you just say the object's center is exactly at the tip of the corner
20:30:46 <Wareya> if you have two colliding singularities, what do you do?
20:30:58 <Wareya> treat them as spheres, boxes?
20:31:27 <oklopol> Wareya: these singularities are not actually well-defined mathematical objects
20:31:39 <oklopol> well the ones the article talks about are
20:31:48 <Wareya> neither is an infinitely small point
20:31:58 <Wareya> which the surface of intersection with a sphere is
20:32:27 <oklopol> in any sensible measure of volume, a set containing just one point has measure 0
20:32:31 <Wareya> that's my use of the word in this case
20:32:35 <oklopol> so all points are infinitely small
20:32:51 <cpressey> Yet some points are infinitely smaller than others!
20:32:58 <oklopol> so why not just put the disc on the corner
20:33:10 <Wareya> that's what I was using to begin with
20:33:44 <MissPiggy> oklopol what's bullshit about that
20:35:03 <cpressey> MissPiggy, I prefer the term "science fiction". Whereever there is a singularity, there is a paradox caused by execessive quantum flux.
20:35:27 <oklopol> because people who talk about singularities in that sort of context don't have any idea what they're talking about
20:35:43 <cpressey> I have a proof for this, but my wormhole ate it.
20:35:53 <Wareya> oklopol, it's another way of using the word.
20:37:13 <oklopol> i mean what the fuck does "lim n-->0" mean, the point that n approaches as n approaches 0?
20:37:46 <Wareya> the size of the OBJECT that we are calling a singularity
20:38:09 <oklopol> so do we have some sort of measure on these objects?
20:38:13 <MissPiggy> nonstandard analysis is just as much bullshit as ZFC
20:38:15 <oklopol> what's the size of 1? is it 1?
20:38:25 <oklopol> MissPiggy: there's nothing bullshitty about nonstandard analysis
20:38:33 <MissPiggy> (since there is an algorithm to translate proofs back)
20:38:35 <oklopol> there's a lot of bullshit about people doing it without knowing what it is
20:38:39 <Wareya> oklopol, what is the unit of "1"?
20:38:52 <MissPiggy> people doing it all without knowing what it means
20:39:13 <AnMaster> <cpressey> I have a proof for this, but my wormhole ate it. <-- no no "but the singularity is too small to contain it!
20:39:18 <oklopol> well sure, they're memorizing useful algorithms
20:39:27 <oklopol> but i mean for a mathematician
20:39:33 <scarf> AnMaster: ok, that's actually a good joke
20:39:39 <cpressey> AnMaster: Um... it was a very small proof?
20:40:34 <oklopol> i mean you have to know the story
20:40:51 <scarf> I liked both cpressey's original, and AnMaster's correction
20:40:58 <scarf> the correction wouldn't have been funny without the original joke
20:41:55 <AnMaster> scarf, you could have used the corrected one in place of the original
20:41:58 <oklopol> Wareya: i assumed we were talking about a vector space, if the size of a vector is its length, then obviously the only vector whose length is smaller than any positive number is the zero vector.
20:42:18 <scarf> the original was funny too, though, and doing them in the other order wouldn't have worked
20:42:31 <Wareya> it's real space - the one we don't know how to define
20:42:35 <AnMaster> scarf, but just doing one would have worked
20:42:47 <scarf> AnMaster: yes, but it wouldn't have been as funny cumulatively
20:42:51 <scarf> two jokes are better than one
20:43:01 <AnMaster> how does that interact with gravity
20:43:14 <Wareya> AnMaster: The higssdafjkshdfjklsdh boson did it
20:43:23 <AnMaster> imagine you have a wormhole from somewhere near earth surface to somewhere on the moon
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20:43:32 <AnMaster> would that give earth gravity at the moon?
20:44:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: since physics seems to happily accept the idea that gravity means curved space, ...
20:44:22 <Wareya> gravity is a field effect
20:44:38 <Wareya> is it a distortion of an object's inertia
20:44:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, yes. But what would happen here
20:44:57 <cpressey> AnMaster: well, a wormhole is curved space, too, right?
20:45:07 <cpressey> Therefore wormholes are a kind of gravity.
20:45:20 <AnMaster> cpressey, holes that changes the topology too iirc
20:46:08 <AnMaster> cpressey, so everyone would get crushed in wormholes?
20:47:03 <cpressey> It seems "reasonable" that it would be much easier to "fall" into one than to get out, anyway.
20:47:45 <cpressey> I mean, if it goes straight from Earth to Earth's moon, that's one hell of a curve.
20:47:57 <AnMaster> so they? I have yet to see one
20:48:52 <Wareya> "Under the theory of quantum mechanics black holes possess a temperature and emit Hawking radiation.
20:48:59 <Wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
20:49:17 <AnMaster> but a wormhole wouldn't have a event horizon iirc
20:49:39 <Wareya> a black hole contains a wormhole
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21:01:36 <cpressey> I don't believe in black holes.
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21:12:13 <lament> Do you believe in the power of voodoo?
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21:14:08 <AnMaster> "Any undocumented functions in [the module] string should not be used." <-- okay, why do they need to point that out?
21:18:39 <cpressey> I wonder if they've documented the undocumented functions yaws uses, yet
21:22:50 <cpressey> Undocumented voodoo black holes.
21:27:22 <cpressey> That's where the flying nose demons live.
21:29:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, what are those functions yaws uses?
21:30:05 <AnMaster> I assume you mean the erlang yaws
21:33:18 <cpressey> Yes. It uses some Erlang-internal mechanism to parse HTTP headers, iirc.
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21:43:26 * oerjan now goes to find out what he was denying
21:46:15 <scarf> oerjan: that erlang has an undocumented function to parse HTTP headers
21:46:56 <oerjan> well that would _clearly_ be nonsense, since i read here the other day that ericsson document _everything_
21:48:15 <cpressey> They even document the fact that you're not supposed to use undocumented functions.
21:48:20 <oerjan> <scarf> theory: Google bought Youtube /just/ for leverage in getting rid of IE6
21:48:49 <oerjan> isn't the IE6 problem mostly about all the business sites using them, and wouldn't they like to _block_ youtube anyways
21:48:51 * scarf waits for oerjan's opinion, and/or a terrible pun
21:51:05 <oerjan> 08:29:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, what about the one of ick?
21:51:06 <oerjan> 08:29:39 <AnMaster> it looked pretty okay considering the language it is supposed to parse iirc
21:51:17 <oerjan> isn't ick's parsing sort of hyper-advanced
21:51:42 <scarf> parsing INTERCAL is hard
21:51:46 <oerjan> (going by vaguely absorbed discussions here)
21:52:01 <scarf> CLC-INTERCAL's parsing is crazier, I think it's fully nondeterministic or something like that
21:52:18 <pikhq> oerjan: Nowadays, yes. *However*, ending IE6 support on Youtube might finally get it into the beancounters' bean-sized brains that IE6 is ancient.
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21:57:56 <oerjan> beware of the okloclones
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22:16:00 <oerjan> 12:49:39 <Wareya> a black hole contains a wormhole
22:16:30 <oerjan> i've read that it contains a singularity
22:17:30 <oerjan> and that wormholes are very hard to stabilize, and tend to pinch off into singularities
22:21:28 <charlls> wormholes cannot be stable because they need either exotic matter or dark energy
22:24:56 <tombom> im a asrophisicist let me answer yourn question
22:26:24 <oerjan> i may not be an astrophysicist, but i've read enough to suspect you're trolling
22:26:41 <Ilari> OTOH, creating or destroying wormhole between two points in same space would involve topology change...
22:26:52 <tombom> HOW ON EArth did you guess that
22:27:26 <oerjan> tombom: because you are directly contradicting the wikipedia articles i browsed minutes ago?
22:27:55 <tombom> yeah that was sarcasm as well, i thouight my terrible spelling might have been a clue
22:28:05 <tombom> i don't know, maybe scientists are renowned for terrible spelling
22:28:19 <oerjan> tombom: i was _trying_ to ignore that, i didn't remember whether you were a dyslexic
22:28:40 <Ilari> And energies related to topology changes might be very high. Magnetic monopole is thought to be particle related to spacetime topology and have mass somewhere on order of 10^16 GeV/c^2...
22:28:44 <tombom> you're an incredibly generous person
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23:39:38 <songhead95> Is anyone ever on the brainfuck chan anymore?
23:40:25 <scarf> this one's used for all esolang discussion nowadays, it seems
23:41:38 <songhead95> When I made a language, I had to make it cell based
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