00:00:21 <augur> also consider the fact that its entirely possible to have an INTRANSITIVE verb, lets say blump
00:00:44 <augur> if john is blumping, then john is kissing someone allergic to peanuts
00:02:14 <augur> the problem is making allergen an argument to the verb
00:03:29 <oklopol> lojban does that all the time btw
00:03:42 <augur> i blump all the time too!
00:04:17 <oklopol> well me too, but i mean most lojban verbs have all sorts of args, and you can cherrypick any subset of them to use
00:04:22 <oklopol> now that we're abusing that term
00:04:48 <augur> but also consider that like
00:05:05 <oklopol> i think it's the same thing, even if you put "fo" before the argument to say "this is not the usual argument you'd see here"
00:05:07 <augur> "john blumped mary" cannot mean "john kissed mary, who is allergic to peanuts"
00:05:41 <oklopol> but it could mean "john kissed mary, making her allergic to peanuts"
00:05:41 <augur> well see, having an overt marker like 'fo' is different
00:05:48 <alise> I really want a language which cannot express statements that are false in logic
00:05:50 <augur> because its essentially just an argument
00:06:02 <alise> i.e. not just a mere declaration "X is syntactically invalid", just that it is impossible to formulate.
00:06:04 <alise> Is such a thing possible?
00:06:10 <augur> the point is that the word itself, with no option for a marker
00:06:13 <alise> I guess not; the syntax would need to have magic knowledge of every proof.
00:06:24 <alise> But you could encode the proof into the syntactic structure, perhaps.
00:06:50 <augur> but it would only work for some certain kind of falsity
00:06:53 <augur> e.g. mathematical falsity
00:07:23 <augur> and such a language would be, for instance, the language of all non-contradictions in logic
00:07:48 <augur> which is really just logic.
00:07:56 <augur> or a consistent one, anyway.
00:08:10 <alise> aye, but syntactically
00:08:12 <alise> in logic, I can say
00:08:19 <alise> it's untrue, but I can formulate it
00:08:27 <alise> you could declare "any false statement is a syntax error", but I mean rather in the sense
00:08:30 <augur> you can formulate it, if by formulate you mean "write the symbols"
00:08:31 <alise> if you thought of p & ~p
00:08:37 <alise> and followed the normal process of logical expression -> language
00:08:39 <alise> you would run into a dead end
00:08:42 <augur> but p & ~p CANNOT be formulated from the AXIOMS of your logic
00:08:49 <alise> write the symbols, yes
00:08:51 <alise> that is what I mean
00:09:00 <alise> instead of just saying
00:09:02 <augur> but your axioms happen to be nothing more than the grammar of some higher order language
00:09:03 <alise> false things are syntax errors
00:09:13 <alise> this is the algorithm for logic statement -> language
00:09:16 <alise> if you feed it a false statement
00:09:21 <alise> (without any special checks for that;
00:09:27 <augur> right but alise, my point is
00:09:28 <alise> i.e. it doesn't do | ifFalse x = lolerror)
00:09:31 <alise> it just runs into a dead end
00:09:49 <alise> it would be the ultimate rationalist's language
00:10:07 <augur> a consistent logic is merely a particular sort of grammar
00:10:17 <alise> One would simply be unable to express any false thought in it; all that is said will be either true, or nonsense in the same way that "If the ;fdg" is in English.
00:10:23 <augur> thats what logic is, after all, a grammar for a particular language
00:10:34 <alise> yes, but is it practical to define such a language?
00:10:40 <alise> Could humans learn it, even if communication in it would be slow?
00:10:43 <augur> well it wouldnt be possible for a human to learn
00:10:44 <alise> (and possibly require translation)
00:10:48 <alise> i.e. not really learn
00:10:52 <alise> but memorise the algorithm to speak in it
00:11:21 <augur> its possible for people to consciously learn pretty much anything
00:11:25 <augur> but that doesnt make it language
00:11:58 <augur> just because i can speak in lisp doesnt mean that my brain is treating lisp remotely like its treating english
00:12:20 <oklopol> you can't consciously learn to fly tho
00:12:35 <alise> i really want to become fluent in a programming language
00:12:43 <alise> I believe people can be fluent in Perl; nay, I believe people /are/ fluent in Perl.
00:12:55 <alise> Not the entire range of Perl programs, just like most English speakers aren't poets.
00:12:57 <augur> not like they are with a natural language
00:12:59 <alise> But a good subset of it.
00:13:03 <alise> augur: Why not? Perl is close.
00:13:24 <alise> say "Hello, world" if $appliance->on;
00:13:32 <alise> Say "Hello, world" if the appliance's on.
00:13:45 <oklopol> i don't know about perl, but python is certainly easier to speak in than natural languages, there's just a slight lack of vocabulary
00:14:01 <augur> but thats a) a subset, and b) not exactly underived FROM a natural language
00:14:12 <alise> Languages borrow from each other.
00:14:17 <oklopol> in python, you never have to think, you just start typing
00:14:31 <augur> yes, but being fluent in a programming language thats derived from a natural language isnt really all that interesting, is it
00:14:51 <alise> while ($appliance->on) { say for @todo_list }
00:15:09 <alise> While the appliance's on, speak for each item in todo list.
00:15:18 <augur> because you're not really fluent in the programming language
00:15:22 <alise> it means you can express your thoughts to the computer incredibly naturally
00:15:29 <augur> its more that the computer is fluent in that (subset) of your natural language.
00:15:31 <alise> augur: Perlists seem to be incredibly good with their idioms
00:15:49 <alise> I'm not so sure you can claim outright that nobody is fluent in a useful, common subset of PErl.
00:15:57 <augur> sure, but the point is that those idioms are parasitic on your pre-existing competence in english
00:16:04 <alise> The differences between it and natural languages aren't that big.
00:16:13 <alise> But they're still /different/.
00:16:36 <alise> If they were invented idioms of the same general lax form, I bet you could learn it to a similar degree of fluency; with tens to hundreds of times the effort, yes.
00:16:38 <augur> but if theyre different in ways that arent impossible in natural language, all you've done is become fluent in a natural language that happens to not be natural.
00:16:49 <alise> But just as you can learn English idioms, idioms of the same form are learnable too, whether they're in a programming language or not.
00:16:52 <augur> the real question is could someone be fluent in something like Forth
00:16:56 <augur> which is decidedly unnatural
00:17:09 <alise> is SOV really that unnatural
00:17:15 <alise> or is it OSV, dunno
00:17:17 <augur> its not that Forth is SOV
00:17:22 <augur> its that forth is stack oriented
00:17:34 <augur> SOV languages are by far the most common
00:17:39 <alise> augur: good Forth has a small stack, though.
00:17:51 <alise> and never does thing ............... verb
00:17:54 <augur> perhaps. in principle it could be arbitrarily large
00:17:59 <augur> in _principle_ anyway
00:18:08 <alise> you can write sentences that mention a thing, go on a million tangents, then continue talking about that thing in english too
00:18:13 <alise> doesn't mean fluency in english is impossible
00:20:14 <augur> i mean, its not like you dont get big constructions like that in natural language, right. SOV languages notoriously have deeply nested things like that. but what im talking about is GENUINELY stack oriented. not merely SOV with large things between the S/O and the V
00:20:17 <alise> The oranges, which were the cause of a gross incident in 1794 when Tom, who was a rat in a band primarily targeted towards the 8-12 horse-lover market, died after eating one that looked incredibly delicious, though this was in fact unwise as the turtles that pooped them out actually made sure they were poisonous, as they positively hated turtles, though, of course, Tom was completely oblivious to this fact when he digested them, were eaten.
00:20:46 <augur> e.g. with stack operations like swap, rotate, duplicate, etc.
00:20:57 <alise> rot is bad Forth style
00:21:06 <alise> and Lojban has things similar to swap and rot
00:21:12 <augur> perhaps. i wasnt using forth itself as a good example of this.
00:21:16 <alise> (you can specify argument position and I'm sure you can say "again" for an argument)
00:21:26 <augur> but the point is that genuine stack orientedness seems VERY difficult for people to grasp
00:21:35 <alise> I do think if Forth's vocabulary was about the world rather than a computer, it would be possible to be fluent in it.
00:22:05 <augur> that doesnt seem to be the case, however.
00:22:18 <alise> cannibals their species members dup eat do
00:22:32 <alise> let me rewrite that
00:22:41 <augur> dup itself actually wouldnt be enormously complicated, to be honest
00:22:47 <alise> cannibals their species members dup eat are-those-that
00:22:49 <augur> its just kinda like very local reflexivity
00:23:03 <alise> their species members dup eat
00:23:12 <augur> cannibals species their members dup eat
00:23:17 <alise> "Members of their species eat members of their species"
00:23:32 <alise> also note that idiomatic forth actually reads in english style :)
00:23:44 <alise> because of the typical style of coding
00:23:58 <augur> i wonder if japanese idiomatic forth reads more SOV
00:24:09 <alise> i don't think anyone writes japanese idiomatic forth
00:24:19 <augur> i would bet it doesnt look like SOV at all.
00:24:25 <alise> but i think the vocab shapes it
00:24:36 <alise> SVO presumably has properties that make implementation, and the use of it, superior
00:24:38 <augur> a better question tho is whether or not such a limitation would be because of MEMORY or because of grammar
00:24:43 <alise> otherwise forthers would just accept the rpn; they do for arithmetic
00:24:50 <alise> anyway dup would be useful in everyday speech
00:24:58 <augur> well, we sort of DO have dupe
00:25:03 <augur> its called a reflexive
00:25:10 <alise> "I read it and dup and dup, but I still didn't understand it."
00:25:57 <alise> i it read dup and dup and
00:26:01 <augur> whats the dup's doing there tho
00:26:07 <alise> i.e., you get i-read-it on the stack, then you get i-read-it i-read-it
00:26:13 <alise> i-read-it-and-i-read-it
00:26:17 <alise> i-read-it-and-i-read-it-and-i-read-it
00:26:22 <alise> "I read it and read it and read it, but I still didn't understand it."
00:26:25 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:26:45 <augur> well you'd have four readings
00:27:07 <augur> because you're duping "i-read-it-and-i-read-it"
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00:27:32 <oklopol> what, why would dup duplicated the whole stack
00:27:36 <augur> we can SORT of do that
00:27:42 <augur> oklopol: its not the whole stack
00:27:50 <oklopol> why would it concatenate its result
00:27:52 <augur> its the top most syntactic object, which is a conjunction in this case
00:27:58 <augur> apparently, according to ehird.
00:28:16 <alise> oklopol: for multiple values
00:28:38 <alise> (yes, I know, don't start)
00:28:40 <augur> alise, we do sort of have dup
00:28:46 <augur> in that you have reflexives
00:28:50 <oklopol> if dup is o => o+o instead of o => o, o; that's just not very stacky
00:28:56 <augur> e.g. "john hit himself" ~ john dup hit
00:28:57 <alise> oklopol: dup is o => o o
00:29:12 <alise> i-read-it i-read-it
00:29:13 <oklopol> you clearly aren't following this conversation
00:29:14 <alise> i-read-it-and-i-read-it
00:29:32 <augur> infact, some languages mark reflexivity on the verb
00:29:40 <augur> so there is a marker essentially like
00:29:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:30:01 <oklopol> stack oriented is easy to read if you actively visualize everything
00:30:19 <augur> except reflexivity is extraordinarily flexible in what can be reflexivized
00:30:29 <oklopol> i mean actually visualize a stack of those objects
00:30:39 <augur> oklopol: thats exactly the point
00:30:46 <augur> you have to visualize this shit to understand it
00:30:54 <augur> which is NOT the case with natural language
00:31:05 <augur> you dont have to even THINK about what someone says to just understand it
00:31:18 <augur> no, you dont, stop being obstinate
00:31:20 <oklopol> i often have to translate sentences to logic
00:31:37 <alise> augur: when will you realise that *oklopol* *is* *not* *human*
00:31:48 <alise> you can't make your rules apply to him just because you say they do
00:31:57 <alise> your theory works on humans, not oklopol
00:32:10 <augur> oklopol just likes being contrarian
00:32:10 <oklopol> i mean sure, sometimes i can read sentences without thinking, just like i can sometimes read code or math without thinking
00:32:28 <oklopol> but just as often, i need to do some intermediate steps
00:32:31 <alise> augur: I'm pretty sure his cognitive structure is different to most people's.
00:32:34 <augur> little does he realize how little he actually knows about what is going on in his mind
00:32:55 <alise> Although I've never found anyone with the same configuration, so I hereby deem it oklism.
00:34:06 <oklopol> "augur: little does he realize how little he actually knows about what is going on in his mind" <<< this is very insulting
00:34:43 <augur> oklopol: no, its just a fact. humans are barely aware of whats actually going on in their brains.
00:34:44 <alise> i think augur is a bit too certain of the universal applicability of mainstream linguistics
00:34:54 <alise> augur: if oklopol reads a sentence, can't understand it
00:34:56 <alise> translates it to logic
00:34:58 <alise> and understands it
00:35:02 <augur> im not saying that doesnt happen
00:35:04 <alise> then his brain clearly didn't understand it until that happened
00:35:14 <augur> that happens plenty for lots of people
00:35:17 <oklopol> augur: it's also a fact i often need to translate sentences to logic, very explicitly, to see what they mean.
00:35:34 <oklopol> i mean i actually visualize the simplification of the sentence
00:35:37 <augur> oklopol, you didnt translate the sentence you just said FROM logic into english.
00:35:48 <augur> nor the one i just said INTO logic
00:36:04 <augur> and thats the point!
00:36:04 <oklopol> no, i didn't, i don't always have to do that, just like i usually don't have to think about what python line to write, or how to manipulate some algebraic expression.
00:36:27 <augur> anyway, this is stupid
00:36:31 <alise> if I could be more like oklopol i would
00:36:33 <alise> ...up to a certain point
00:37:09 <oklopol> yes, it's very stupid to tell me how i think.
00:37:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:37:23 <augur> its very stupid to think you know how you think :P
00:37:32 <Sgeo> alise, did you get those pictures, or is that irrelevant now?
00:37:39 <alise> Sgeo: it's probably irrelevant for now
00:37:41 <oklopol> sure, but it's not stupid of me to tell you facts about how i think.
00:37:52 <augur> but you dont KNOW the facts about how you think
00:37:54 <oklopol> i don't claim to understand it
00:38:03 <oerjan> oh it's oklopol, he's not human anyway
00:38:03 <oklopol> not "the facts", some facts
00:38:49 <alise> <alise> augur: when will you realise that *oklopol* *is* *not* *human*
00:38:49 <alise> <alise> just get ove rit
00:38:49 <alise> <alise> you can't make your rules apply to him just because you say they do
00:38:50 <alise> <alise> your theory works on humans, not oklopol
00:38:54 <alise> oerjan: he didn't listen
00:38:59 <oklopol> "augur: oklopol, you didnt translate the sentence you just said FROM logic into english." <<< i usually picture an arrow from logic to english to see what way the objects map
00:39:02 <alise> (<alise> augur: I'm pretty sure his cognitive structure is different to most people's. <alise> Although I've never found anyone with the same configuration, so I hereby deem it oklism.)
00:39:23 <oerjan> alise: hey i didn't remember you saying that
00:39:27 <augur> this is a stupid thing to talk about.
00:39:31 <alise> oerjan: I said it just before you came in. :P
00:39:36 <oerjan> so clearly he now has it from two _independent_ sources
00:39:36 <oklopol> yeah, it is stupid, stop it
00:39:48 <oerjan> augur: it's _science_, bitch
00:40:05 <augur> oerjan: you're right, it is. and science has shown that people dont have a fucking clue whats going on in their heads.
00:40:12 <alise> I wish I was oklistic
00:40:16 <augur> but they THINK they do
00:40:18 <oerjan> augur: no, i mean that oklopol isn't human
00:40:34 <alise> I should set up the Society for the Study and Recognition of Oklism
00:40:48 <oklopol> i don't really believe much of science, i just believe in individual studies.
00:40:54 <alise> on our website under Experiments will be conversation snippets from oklopol
00:41:12 <oklopol> the actual science is how researchers interpreted the stuff, i want to make my own interpretations.
00:41:13 <augur> today i went to a linguistics talk
00:41:20 <augur> one of the examples
00:41:36 <oklopol> alise: you're such a fangirl :D
00:41:58 <augur> one of the examples was
00:42:04 <augur> and i swear, this is quoted directly from the handout
00:42:23 <augur> "When he came, his semen short circuited the sander and electrocuted him dead"
00:42:38 <alise> augur: hahaha what
00:43:11 <augur> you shouldve seen the stuff that was common back in the generative semantics days
00:43:33 <augur> there was a transformational grammar rule called the Euphemistic Genital Deletion rule
00:43:48 <oerjan> clearly this was from the olden days, when men were real men, women were real women, and sex was fucking dangerous
00:43:55 <augur> which took sentences like "John's penis was too big to fit into Mary's vagina" and turned it into "John was too big for Mary"
00:44:02 <alise> "Grinder's Apparel Pronoun Deletion (for the syntactic behavior f certain sentences concerning disrobing)"
00:44:20 * oklopol had to visualize that situation to understand the sentence
00:44:28 <oklopol> i guess also i should stop this
00:44:35 <augur> oklopol, are you too big for me?
00:44:46 <augur> alise, there were also shit tonnes of references to drugs and politics
00:44:50 <oklopol> really i think i'm just retarded
00:44:56 <augur> i think you're just a nerd
00:44:56 <alise> augur: what about hugs
00:45:00 <alise> where there any references to hugs
00:45:05 <augur> who's too into being a nerd
00:45:08 <augur> alise: no, no hugs
00:45:17 <alise> you don't think oklopol thinks a leetle bit differently from the average human being?
00:45:28 <alise> his esolangs and `quote should be rather sufficient evidence for that
00:45:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:45:42 <alise> ...as well as his university career
00:45:53 <HackEgo> 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50|<oklopol>
00:45:58 <HackEgo> 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50|<oklopol>
00:46:11 <alise> http://209.20.80.194/sgeo/quotes.txt
00:46:22 <augur> alise: maybe hes a wee aspy, but honestly, not really. he comes off like a typical "TEEHEE IM A NERD IVE GOT OCD OMG IM ADDICTED TO CAFFEINE TEEHEE SO NERDY" nerd
00:46:28 <alise> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
00:46:31 <alise> augur: he's right here, you know
00:46:33 <alise> and you're being a jerk
00:46:34 <augur> only hes smarter when it comes to his pseudoailments
00:46:48 <alise> I've never seen oklopol describe himself as having some ailment; ever.
00:46:53 <alise> well, at least, not a mental one.
00:47:01 <augur> and youll never see a nerd describe his "ocd" as an ailment either
00:47:18 <augur> also, hes a big boy, im sure he can handle some mild criticism.
00:47:38 <alise> oklopol: i think this is the point where you demolish him intellectually and he feels terribly small
00:47:51 <augur> "Hey, if John went to Chicago, that means we'll soon have a big supply of dope."
00:47:59 <augur> another sentence from the good old Generative Semantics days
00:48:12 <pikhq> ... Ate dog food? WTF?
00:48:43 <alise> if it tastes like porridge i see no problem
00:48:50 <augur> "Nixon, you imperialist butcher, take your lunatic Secretary of Defence and shove him up your ass"
00:49:30 <alise> also 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
00:49:37 * oerjan has subconsciously classified oklopol as the sanest person on this channel, actually. admittedly my classifications may not be reliable.
00:49:51 <alise> he's so sane he wrapped around again
00:49:54 <alise> and again, a few more times
00:50:16 <augur> you know im kinda into bdsm? as in, whipping.
00:50:26 <alise> we don't need to know.
00:50:39 <alise> no, really, we have no requirement for that knowledge. whatsoever
00:50:41 <oerjan> i didn't _know_, but i was in no way _surprised_
00:51:07 <alise> oerjan: I think he interpreted your statement as innuendo.
00:51:11 <oerjan> so perhaps i knew, subconsciously
00:51:19 <Gregor> oerjan: oklopol? Really? Until you made that claim, I would have said /you/ were amongst the sanest people on this channel.
00:51:27 <alise> god I'm such a genius
00:51:31 <alise> sorry, just had a bout of egotism there
00:51:33 <alise> happens occasionally
00:51:43 <Gregor> alise: EgoBot forgives you.
00:51:56 <alise> how genius is egobot
00:52:13 <pikhq> Gregor: I'd term you one of the sanest.
00:52:20 <pikhq> Though I'm not entirely sure how.
00:52:38 <pikhq> Before oerjan thinking oklopol sane, I would have termed him the sanest. :P
00:53:44 <Sgeo> Where am I sanity-wise
00:53:48 <oklopol> "augur: oklopol, are you too big for me?" <<< yeah i doubt my penis would fit in your penis
00:54:14 <augur> oklopol: we could try
00:54:50 <augur> i think thats the most false thing ive ever heard.
00:54:56 <oerjan> hypothesis: sanity does not travel well over irc
00:54:58 <alise> oklopol isn't a nerd
00:55:08 <augur> nerd, geek, i use them interchangably
00:55:22 <alise> he has a sex life (or has been lying to us consistently), he tends to have a negative opinion of coding
00:55:27 <oklopol> but yeah, the reason i usually don't tell people i'm mad is because everyone does it
00:55:28 <alise> definitely not a computer geek, mathematics geek maybe
00:55:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: insufficient data for meaningful answer
00:55:35 <alise> his esolangs always tend towards the theoretical, so
00:55:45 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/gs.pdf
00:55:47 <alise> i don't remember him showing any ginormous enthusiasm to CS
00:55:48 <oklopol> so i just occasionally mention facts about my life, it's equally fun, i love sharing
00:55:50 <alise> so i guess maths nerd
00:55:52 <augur> in case anyones interested in the Generative Semantics program
00:56:05 <alise> AnMaster is the sanest here, probably, but he's also boring and orthodox and wrong.
00:56:08 <oklopol> alise: i don't really think i can demolish people intellectually
00:56:15 <alise> ... i said that years ago
00:56:31 <alise> Gregor is probably the second-sanest, and is vastly superior by way of being actually interesting and not hideously wrong about everything
00:56:38 <olsner> oerjan: I think insanity just carries much more funnily over IRC
00:57:04 <olsner> well, sanity is boring, that's what
00:57:06 <oerjan> olsner: what a ridiculous hypothesis -----###
00:58:31 <oklopol> also i don't think i have ocd, i have the ability to get interested in whatever i want, so i can simulate ocd is i find that necessary.
00:58:35 <oerjan> if you don't understand that i'll have to drown you in tomato sauce. spicy.
00:58:38 <alise> olsner: right but Gregor is a sane, normal person he's just intelligent and has weird ideas
00:58:42 <oklopol> this is just a skill i've spent thousands of hours developing.
00:58:55 <augur> oklopol: i dont think you have ocd either. i was just using that as an example of the _typical_ geek "fake ailment"
00:58:56 <oklopol> ...okay that came out wrong
00:59:02 <augur> thats what she said
00:59:11 <alise> AnMaster is a sane, normal person and sure okay he has intelligence but his ideas are boring and he doesn't seem to be able to think of really interesting ones
00:59:19 <alise> dunno how you'd quantify the different, it isn't sanity
00:59:20 <oerjan> augur: how would that even work
00:59:23 <augur> speaking of her, hows 2tullia?
00:59:28 <alise> maybe... creativity but on the oddness axis
00:59:30 <augur> oerjan: how would what even work? X
01:00:28 <oklopol> i'm also not addicted to coffee, just caffeine, and i definitely love addictions
01:01:28 <oklopol> so really none of what you said is true of me, but probably i do sound like exactly how you described me
01:01:28 <oklopol> also i wish my lag was a few minutes less.
01:01:37 <olsner> I'm definitely getting/gotten stuck on my new esolang...
01:01:51 <pikhq> alise: Gregor's actually somewhat eccentric.
01:02:12 <augur> oklopol: i didnt say YOU portrayed yourself as having OCD or a coffee addiction
01:02:17 <augur> i specifically said you DIDNT
01:02:31 <augur> i said you portray yourself with similarly geeky "quirks"
01:02:51 <augur> eg "lol i have to translate into higher order predicate logic to understand you lololol"
01:03:02 <augur> which is an exageration of what you said but you get the point
01:03:19 <alise> pikhq: presumably he can function normally in society
01:03:20 <olsner> hmm, maybe I should just make it turing complete, release it and leave it for the rest of the world to figure out how to do IO with it... but that seems kind of boring
01:03:21 <alise> apart from the hat thing
01:03:28 <oklopol> anyway i do like telling people how mad i am, but it's not so much that i want to separate myself from others or anything, i just love sharing personal details, especially all sorts of craziness, which i'm very enthusiastic about, in both directions
01:03:29 <alise> olsner: what is it?
01:04:03 <augur> oklopol: enthusiasm about ones presumed madnesses is a typical geek trait. which is the point. :|
01:04:12 <pikhq> alise: "Eccentric" does not mean "cannot function normally".
01:04:35 <pikhq> alise: Means things like "has a fondness for hats" or "has a fondness for a soda that can't be easily found outside of Maine".
01:04:37 <olsner> alise: fun with making input and output harder instead of (or in addition to) making the actual computation hard
01:04:47 <alise> pikhq: yes but I wouldn't consider those in any way related to real insanity
01:05:01 <alise> by which I don't mean literally not being sane, but being really crazy
01:05:01 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:05:03 <pikhq> alise: Yes. I'm not saying he's insane in any way.
01:05:06 <alise> oklopol is crazy, Gregor isn't
01:05:10 <pikhq> Just mildly eccentric.
01:08:12 <olsner> trying to figure out just how hard I actually made it, but it looks like a 'cat' program is around O(n^2.3) in input size (that's with C-code and MPFR and GMP doing the computation, doing it by hand in some turing tarpit would probably be a lot slower)
01:09:23 <oklopol> augur: i'm not really especially enthusiastic in my own madness
01:09:23 <oklopol> in fact definitely more interesting in others
01:11:36 <oklopol> i have exactly the same characteristics as a generic own-geekiness-loving geek has. and maybe i have them for the same reasons every other geek has. really i'm just correcting your details because i dislike you telling me these facts, because they are annoying.
01:11:58 <oklopol> or something along those lines
01:12:13 <augur> oklopol, those "details" were explicitly stated as being NOT facts about YOU
01:12:35 <oklopol> yeah, yeah, and i guess i misinterpreted them.
01:12:42 <oklopol> i mean misinterpreted the sentence
01:13:01 <oklopol> this lag makes it sorta hard to pay attention
01:13:39 <oerjan> oklopol: wait, the ping _says_ 19 seconds but the response was _actually_ immediate
01:13:53 <oerjan> you're not lagged to me
01:13:58 <augur> oerjan: his computer is high.
01:14:07 <oklopol> in any case, i have to correct something, because i can't correct your impression of me.
01:14:20 <alise> oklopol: well i think you're a beautiful snowflake.
01:14:40 <augur> i think oklopol is a hot piece of manmeat
01:14:59 <oklopol> i hear i'm pretty hot when i've showered recently
01:15:00 <oerjan> i'm not significantly lagged to augur either
01:15:18 <augur> oklopol, i demant photographic proof
01:15:20 <oklopol> speaking of which, she's fine, currently visiting her parents and works with some dude with MS
01:15:41 <oklopol> two different facts about her
01:15:47 <oklopol> not sure if either is very relevant
01:16:36 -!- blagobu has joined.
01:16:48 <oerjan> especially since she hadn't been previously mentioned, you know
01:16:54 <augur> what was weird about it is the tense mismatch
01:17:01 <augur> its actually ungrammatically
01:17:02 <Gregor> Hm, Hackiki is just a little over three months old.
01:17:17 <Gregor> I neglected to celebrate its 1/4th-year anniversary :P
01:17:58 <oklopol> augur: you're mom is ungrammatical
01:18:13 <augur> as is "you're mom is ungrammatical"
01:18:14 <oerjan> Gregor: you'll be _so_ sorry for that when it develops sapience
01:18:23 <alise> oklopol just likes to rub his wimmen lyfe into our faeces
01:18:29 <alise> that was /so/ a typo
01:18:36 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh I doubt it :P
01:18:46 <alise> Gregor: are you /sure/ you understood Creating Friendly AI
01:18:59 <Gregor> Who ever said it was supposed to be friendly?
01:19:04 <Gregor> MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
01:19:14 <alise> well at least we'll have all the paperclips we could possibly want
01:19:19 <alise> unfortunately, "we" will be an empty set
01:20:04 <oerjan> paperclips is _so_ last cataclysm
01:20:36 <oklopol> "alise: oklopol just likes to rub his wimmen lyfe into our faeces" <<< i keep talking about my gf, but really i try not to, it's just i don't really have much else to say in conversations, because i have gf and i have uni stuff.
01:20:36 <oklopol> i mean that's another stereotype i seriously try to fight being
01:20:36 <oklopol> the guy who always talks about his gf
01:20:37 <oklopol> i just have no life outside her
01:20:40 <oklopol> well except here and at uni i can talk about other stuff often
01:20:46 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc9l7pygQRo
01:21:01 <oklopol> so i guess i'm not that guy here, but irl i often feel like i am
01:21:07 <pikhq> What is this "social life" of which you speak.
01:21:08 <oerjan> oklopol: wait you're always inside her?
01:21:19 <pikhq> My social life seriously consists of IM and IRC.
01:21:25 -!- blagobu has left (?).
01:21:43 <augur> oklopol: do you really talk about 2tuulia much??
01:21:46 <augur> i dont notice this.
01:22:06 <pikhq> oklopol has a girlfriend?
01:22:39 -!- jcp has joined.
01:22:59 <alise> has he ever not had a girlfriend
01:23:08 <oklopol> i thought i mention my gf all the time, probably i'm just paranoid
01:23:08 <oklopol> yeah, we've lived together for 1.5 years
01:23:08 <oklopol> okay maybe i don't talk about her *that much*.
01:23:42 <alise> oklopol: oh i thought it was probably a new one
01:23:48 <alise> you know, oklopol, surely you can't do the same thing for like
01:23:50 <oklopol> you don't know that. i didn't have a gf like half of high school
01:23:51 <alise> more than a few hours
01:23:55 <alise> unintentional innuendo
01:24:12 <oklopol> just casual sex with my ex
01:24:47 <augur> oklopol, can we have casual sex? :D
01:24:50 * Sgeo never had a gf
01:25:09 <oklopol> i don't really have sex with dudes
01:25:22 <augur> well you should start
01:25:41 <oklopol> well i don't really have a reason not to try it
01:25:43 <augur> especially with me.
01:25:48 <Gregor> <oklopol> i don't really have sex with dudes, only in my imagination
01:25:51 <Sgeo> /me is fully willing to have sex with a female who once was a dude
01:26:09 <augur> sgeo is a modern, 21st century man.
01:26:27 <oklopol> augur: yeah but i can't have sex with myself
01:26:47 <Gregor> "I'm fully willing to have sex with a woman who was once a man, or a man who was once a woman, or a frog who was once a prince."
01:27:15 <Gregor> Not of somebody, I just wanted to make it clear that frog sex was not my statement :P
01:27:17 <oklopol> Sgeo: i've gotten most of my girlfriends by essentially stalking them and constantly telling them they're pretty (well except for the three longer relationships i've had :P)
01:27:46 <augur> tip: dont stalk girls
01:27:49 <Gregor> So, they were only girlfriends in your mind then :P
01:27:55 <Gregor> <augur> Stalk guys instead
01:28:14 <oerjan> <gregor> Lie about what people say
01:28:25 <augur> Gregor: entirely true.
01:28:47 <Gregor> <Gregor> Sockpuppetting is fun!
01:29:38 <oklopol> i only have sex with femaly frogs
01:29:57 <oklopol> a prince would turn into a male frog right?
01:30:26 <Gregor> Male and female frogs both have cloacas, so who cares :P
01:30:40 <oklopol> i was just about to ask about their genitals
01:31:01 <oklopol> biology is not one of my strongest subjects
01:31:32 <pikhq> Nonmammalian genitalia are unusual.
01:31:42 <Gregor> pikhq: That was a dumb statement :P
01:31:52 <augur> oklopol: dont deny it, dudes are sexful.
01:31:52 <oerjan> no they're not, they're the majority
01:32:13 <Sgeo> So I was on this quiz bowl thing at school, and we were practicing. One of the questions was about some hormone. So I answered "Reproductive system"
01:32:26 <pikhq> Gregor: I pride myself on dumb statements.
01:32:36 <alise> <Sgeo> /me is fully willing to have sex with a female who once was a dude
01:32:40 <Sgeo> "Trust $name to know all about the reproductive system. The female reproductive system"
01:32:47 <alise> transvaginas tend to be much less sensitive than the real thing iirc
01:32:54 <alise> if you can settle for penor i guess that's acceptable
01:33:14 <Sgeo> I don't want penor
01:33:29 * augur flops on oklopols lap
01:33:37 <Gregor> This conversation is so much bizarre :P
01:33:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well tough for you. You have penor.
01:34:08 <pikhq> And you're not about to remove it.
01:34:09 <oklopol> augur: is that one of those complicated verbs?
01:34:16 <Gregor> bsmntbombdood: THAT drags you out of idle-land? :P
01:34:17 <augur> oklopol: no. its one of those simple ones.
01:34:27 <HackEgo> * Kyabj Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche (1932 - March 27, 2009) was the 11th throne holder of the Palyul Lineage of the Nyingma school of Tibetan ... \ [15]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penor \
01:34:30 <augur> let me translate it into first order predicate logic for you
01:34:49 <augur> would you like a full derivation of the first order logic form, or do you just want the truth conditions, oklopol?
01:35:28 <oklopol> augur: lol think i'm some sorta noob? latter
01:37:22 <augur> ignoring tense and so forth, ∃x:augur(x)[ ∃y:oklopol(y)[ ∃e[flopping(e) & agent(e,x) & theme(e,y) ]]]
01:37:41 <augur> thats also ignoring the possibility of a verb decomposition
01:37:46 <oerjan> a not so tense conversation
01:38:03 <augur> its also neglecting possible worlds and so forth.
01:38:24 <oklopol> what's the weird character?
01:38:45 <alise> transpenor is pretty rubbish iirc
01:39:06 <alise> Sgeo: do your liberal sensitivities outweigh your limited sexual prospects with transpeople>
01:39:10 <augur> alise, true, but thats ok. transboy cunts can still be fun. especially transboy clit.
01:39:26 <oklopol> i see. that does indeed explain the concept quite well
01:39:31 <alise> Sgeo: are you okay with fucking a man with a cunt.
01:40:03 <Sgeo> alise, if I could pretend e was a girl, probably. But that would be unfair to em
01:40:17 <alise> in conclusion, your sexual prospects with a transperson are pretty much nil.
01:40:55 <pikhq> As in having two ewes?
01:40:56 <Gregor> bsmntbombdood: Idonno, I have no idea how to spell 'U'
01:41:11 <alise> we got bored of gay sex, we're just being more esoteric
01:41:24 <Gregor> Bored of gay sex? NONSENSE
01:42:07 <oklopol> Sgeo: are you okay with fucking a man who has a female nick?
01:42:42 <pikhq> alise: Are you okay with fucking a man while having a female nick?
01:42:52 <augur> pikhq: who's having the female nick? D:
01:43:02 * Sgeo is not ok with fucking anyone who's underage
01:43:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's not the question.
01:43:14 <alise> pikhq: provide me with a vagina and certainly. my anus is a tender, holy thing, emitting light, pristine in its every aspect. also, I am 14
01:43:20 <alise> just had to maximise the awkwardness of that sentence
01:43:34 <pikhq> alise: Emitting light?
01:43:35 <oklopol> i could probably have sex with a man with a female name, but nick i dunno
01:43:37 <alise> pikhq: emitting light.
01:43:38 <Gregor> alise: That was pretty maximally awkward ...
01:43:44 <alise> Gregor: thank you!
01:43:54 <augur> just checking that you werent using a weird dangling modifier
01:43:56 <oklopol> that'd be illegal cuz she's just 14
01:44:10 <alise> not in the vatican
01:44:21 <alise> although i think homosex is illegal there
01:44:47 <augur> alise: i'd be gentle
01:45:05 <pikhq> alise: I suspect having *sex* is illegal there.
01:45:17 <augur> I WANTED TO SHOW YOU SUCH... TENDERNESS
01:45:17 <pikhq> Given that the priests aren't supposed to have it, and everyone else would be having sex in public.
01:45:35 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Catholic priests aren't supposed to.
01:45:36 <augur> unless theyre making babies.
01:45:36 <alise> pikhq: aren't there... houses
01:45:42 <alise> there is an age of consent anyway
01:45:55 <alise> bsmntbombdood: it's a very, very small city
01:46:05 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's a few buildings in the middle of Rome.
01:47:57 <Sgeo> Wait, non-priests in the Vatican don't have homes?
01:48:17 <alise> norway, sweden or denmark would be nice.
01:48:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: There are two types of Vatican citizens.
01:48:41 <pikhq> Clergy and the Swiss Guard.
01:49:30 <pikhq> The Swiss Guard do not reside in the Vatican.
01:49:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Citta_del_Vaticano.svg
01:51:08 <pikhq> Also, the Swiss Guard are required to be single men.
01:51:27 * oklopol wants to have sex in the vatican
01:51:42 <pikhq> (if they cease this, they cease to be Swiss Guard, and thus cease to be Vatican citizens. If they have no other citizenship, they immediately become Italian citizens)
01:52:15 <Gregor> pikhq: I thought the Swiss Guard were, in fact, Swiss.
01:53:09 <Gregor> So how would they accomplish losing their Swiss citizenship while still being Swiss Guard at the Vatican? :P
01:53:10 <pikhq> Gregor: By being employed in that service, they become Vatican.
01:53:23 <Gregor> No dual Swiss-Vatican citizenship eh
01:53:33 <oklopol> it's one of my childhood dreams
01:53:35 <pikhq> No, that's the norm.
01:53:41 <oklopol> MY GF wants to move to norway
01:53:47 <pikhq> It's just there as a contingency.
01:54:03 <pikhq> If a Vatican citizen ceases to be a citizen, and has no other citizenship, they are now Italian.
01:54:10 <pikhq> Man. Vatican as a nationality.
01:55:11 <oklopol> also i was out eating and there was this man talking to an imaginary woman, he'd actually ordered food for her and asked me where the female wc cuz she had to pee
01:55:38 <oklopol> (i didn't know he had an imaginary gf when he asked about the wc so i wasn't sure i should tell him :P)
01:57:10 <augur> so ive started smoking shisha
01:57:20 <augur> (cappuccino shisha, btw, is AWESOME)
01:57:21 <alise> i've started smoking HEROIN
01:57:42 <augur> and ive not gotten any interesting feelings from it. i dont see how people could get anything out of nicotine.
01:58:20 <Sgeo> Illegal drugs and publically logged channels, two great tastes that taste great together!
01:59:04 <oklopol> i've wanted a shisha since i first visited germany
01:59:15 <Gregor> Sgeo: Hookahs, although stupid, are not illegal. And heroin isn't generally smoked (can it be smoked?), so that's clearly a lie :P
01:59:18 <augur> sgeo, shisha, you realize, is hookah tobacco, right?
01:59:29 <alise> Sgeo: You do realise that mentioning drugs on IRC isn't very dangerous?
01:59:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Tobacco is entirely legal.
01:59:34 <alise> Maybe "I'm smuggling opium"
01:59:37 <oklopol> you're not supposed to get feelings from shisha, you're supposed to enjoy all the smoke!
01:59:40 <alise> But not "Hey guys, I'm on WEED"
01:59:44 <alise> "Or should I say... GANJA"
01:59:47 <augur> you can say anything you want in irc
01:59:56 <augur> admitting to doing something illegally on the internet is irrelevant.
02:00:13 <augur> oklopol: true, and its tasty
02:00:19 <Gregor> "The Life of Mammals: The greatest wildlife show on Earth"
02:00:30 <augur> so you should feel it
02:00:32 <Gregor> I wonder how much time they dedicate to humans :P'
02:01:11 <Sgeo> Upside-domn typ hard
02:01:18 <oklopol> yeah but the shishas i did in germany (pretty much nonstop for a week, luuuuved 'em :P [total exaggeration but anyway]), at least, contained very little nicotine
02:01:30 <oklopol> prolly because you're supposed to smoke it all the time
02:01:53 <augur> shisha is pretty amazing
02:01:54 <oklopol> not once every few hours or so like the usual nicotine rolls
02:01:58 <augur> its horrible for you tho
02:02:08 <augur> if you smoke shisha like they do in turkey, for like 8 hours on and off
02:02:14 <augur> its equivalent to smoking about 200 cigarettes
02:02:41 <oklopol> yeah but if it wasn't horrible for you, no one would do it
02:03:11 <oklopol> i mean it has to be at least a bit horrible to be fun
02:03:36 <augur> LSD is pretty unhorrible for you
02:05:08 <oklopol> well if it has no bad effects, but it gives a high, of course it's fun again
02:05:08 <oklopol> but i mean you gotta have at least one
02:05:13 <alise> cock is nutritious if digested
02:05:31 * augur digests alise's cock
02:05:56 <oklopol> when i was in high school, two of my friends found a human cock in the woods, and one of them threw it on the other guy's face
02:05:56 <Gregor> Well that's not hot at all D-8
02:06:02 <alise> Gregor: you're clearly in denial
02:06:05 <alise> so, new competition
02:06:11 <alise> create a sentence /more awkward/ than that one
02:06:16 <Gregor> No digesting sexual organs!
02:06:27 <oklopol> the thing before that, whatever it's called
02:09:09 <Gregor> Middle school and/or junior high
02:09:18 <Gregor> (At least, those are the names in the US)
02:10:46 <Gregor> I imagine penis would be spongy and not all that flavorful, probably not the best food as far as human meat goes.
02:11:35 <Gregor> It could probably give flavor to soup stock though.
02:11:58 <oklopol> what if it was cut off while erected, with something like a string around it so the blood stays in
02:12:21 <Gregor> oklopol: Then it would be spongy, irony, and would probably burst when you bit into it.
02:12:26 <Gregor> Besides, we're humans, we usually /cook/ our food.
02:12:33 <Gregor> So you'd just have the flavor of blood cooked into the spongy flesh.
02:12:38 <pikhq> oklopol: Sounds like the start of blood sausage.
02:12:51 <bsmntbombdood> someone tried to convince me that erections were caused by muscles
02:13:16 <oerjan> no no it's _mussles_, surely
02:13:23 <Gregor> bsmntbombdood: Muscles in your heart push the blood, creating the initial blood pressure that eventually translates into an erection.
02:13:30 <Gregor> oerjan: All MY erections are caused by mussels.
02:19:48 <oerjan> http://www.naturalnews.com/005962.html
02:23:08 <Gregor> So, that being said, cock would probably taste mostly the same as the hens we usually eat, AFAIK there's not such a substantial difference between males and females of the species that they would actually /taste/ different.
02:24:48 <Gregor> That statement made me realize something.
02:24:51 <Gregor> Cocks don't have cocks.
02:24:56 <Gregor> Interesting thing, language.
02:26:30 <oerjan> ducks have cocks though, i hear
02:26:53 <Gregor> Ducks, swans and other closely-related species of bird.
02:27:18 <oerjan> think about that the next time you see Donald
02:29:52 <oklopol> did you know it's the devil that controls the world now, and not god, the jehovas told me this, i wasn't aware
02:30:25 <oklopol> also was that independent research, or is that their official opinion? i mean it sounds really silly
02:31:03 <oklopol> i should join some cool religion
02:31:18 <oklopol> i would totally own at that
02:31:22 <augur> you should FOUND a cool religion
02:32:37 <oklopol> that's an even yummier idea ofc
02:33:23 <alise> See you all on Friday...
02:33:40 <oklopol> maybe i could just worship john gabriel
02:33:47 <alise> And it's half term. So 90% of the day will be... sitting around. Sigh.
02:34:03 <oklopol> you could always read about universal algebra
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02:34:32 <alise> no personal internet
02:35:09 <pikhq> alise: You could write a thesis on the stupidity of all this.
02:35:12 <oklopol> well you could borrow a book from an external library
02:35:20 <alise> oklopol: no, I couldn't
02:35:29 <alise> a parent could and bring it to me
02:35:32 <alise> but we're not allowed out...
02:35:46 <oklopol> well right, i was thinking you'd bring one with ya
02:35:52 <alise> it's tomorrow you know
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02:36:02 <oklopol> hmm, yeah i guess that's a good point
02:37:51 <lament> why am i not the successor anymore? :(
02:38:47 <lament> i thought i was the channel successor
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02:40:14 <lament> but now it says freenode-staff
02:40:32 <lament> and i thought calamari was an op?
02:43:57 <oerjan> maybe ask some actual staff?
02:44:29 <oerjan> the only thing i can see is that andreou is founder
02:44:58 <oerjan> (and from nickserv, that he hasn't been here for 68 weeks)
02:46:03 <oerjan> if it had been much more, he'd probably have been removed in the recent purge...
02:46:29 <oerjan> (some time this autumn iirc)
02:47:00 <oerjan> or wait, do i actually remember when the purge was, it could have been the year before
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02:51:42 <oerjan> lots of unused nicks removed
02:52:06 <lament> ha, i got an explanation from a staffer
02:52:16 <lament> all single-# channels have freenode-staff as the successor
02:52:52 <oerjan> this is new. also impractical...
02:53:28 <oerjan> after all, we really should have replaced andreou completely a long time ago
02:53:53 <lament> somehow i always thought calamari was an op
02:53:58 <pikhq> I don't think I've ever talked to him.
02:54:10 <oerjan> you and fizzie are, aren't you?
02:54:15 <pikhq> And I'm a bit of a long-time regular by now.
02:56:12 <lament> looks like to get staff involvement we'd have to move the channel to ##esoteric
02:56:27 <lament> probably better to just maintain status-quo
02:56:35 <pikhq> ... That's really dumb.
02:56:53 <lament> i dunno what is it the channel founder is for
02:57:09 <pikhq> Particularly considering that this is the closest to the official Esoteric Programming group.
02:57:37 <pikhq> We do also run the wiki and the archive...
03:00:19 <coppro> all we need to do is incorporate somewhere
03:00:40 * Sgeo installs Flashblock
03:00:52 <coppro> where is esolang hosted?
03:02:27 * Sgeo hasn't played Robozzle in a while
03:05:13 <Gregor> The never-shows-up graue hosts it.
03:05:46 <Gregor> All the important figures are no-shows :P
03:06:07 <Gregor> Incidentally, the esolang wiki should totally be hosted in Hackiki ;)
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04:06:29 <coppro> w00t at Canada winning a gold!
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04:56:06 <zzo38> Today I invented a esolang that is possible to represent Russell's paradox: Russell={#![#]}\*;
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05:11:34 * oerjan doesn't get the knight tracks in today's xkcd. the rest is all very accurate and understable though.
05:13:42 <oerjan> although to be honest, may not be quite stable either
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05:14:24 <augur> rabbitboys are hot :(
05:24:14 * Sgeo got a l'spirit descalier regarding earlier conversation
05:24:55 <Sgeo> l'esprit de'escalier
05:26:42 <Sgeo> Something about feeling sorry for female slaves named "nick"
05:30:11 <Gregor> OK, I think I need a liiiiiiiiiittle bit more explanation of "rabbitboys" :P
05:30:29 <pikhq> Gregor: Y'know catgirls?
05:30:39 <pikhq> s/cat/rabbit/ s/girl/boy/
05:31:23 * oerjan has heard of something called playboy bunnies
05:31:39 <pikhq> oerjan: Not the same thing.
05:32:01 <Sgeo> http://dagobah.biz/flash/lolicatgirls.swf ?
05:32:03 <pikhq> That's girls dressed up in a skimpy outfit with a bunny tail and ears. For no good reason.
05:32:27 <pikhq> People do weird things with animal parts and humanoids.
05:32:30 <Sgeo> How did that site get past my FlashBlock?
05:33:57 <oerjan> well i've also heard of something called furries
05:34:30 <oerjan> i sort of thought playboy bunnies was related
05:34:51 <pikhq> No, playboy bunnies are just an artifact of marketing.
05:34:57 <pikhq> And furries are a somewhat odd fandom.
05:35:07 <pikhq> With associated sexual fetishes within the fandom.
05:35:17 <Gregor> Are playgirl models bunnies too?
05:35:20 <Gregor> That would explain it.
05:35:25 <Gregor> And that I can rubber-stamp as OK :P
05:35:37 <pikhq> Gregor: I think it's just the models with the bunny outfit on.
05:35:55 <Gregor> They're not fur-fetishists, they're just wearing bunny-ears.
05:36:14 * Sgeo should be getting ready to go to sleep
05:45:12 <Gregor> augur: I still need your first-person explanation.
05:45:25 <Gregor> Otherwise there's a nagging voice in my head.
05:46:32 <Gregor> <augur> rabbitboys are hot :( <Gregor> OK, I think I need a liiiiiiiiiittle bit more explanation of "rabbitboys" :P
05:46:54 <augur> i know furboys who have rabbit fursonas
05:46:57 <augur> and theyre all hot
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05:47:45 <Gregor> Of course it had to be furries.
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05:48:33 <Gregor> Here I was, blissfully thinking it was just playgirl models in bunny suits.
05:49:56 <augur> how in gods name could rabbitboy meant girl in a bunny suit?
05:50:06 <Gregor> augur: playGIRL models.
05:50:14 <Gregor> PlayBOY models are girls, playGIRL models are boys.
05:50:18 <augur> HOW COULD RABBIT ___BOY___ MEAN THIS
05:50:39 <Gregor> The world of softcore porn is entirely foreign to augur :P
05:52:38 <Gregor> augur is at playgirl.com RIGHT NOW :P
05:53:34 <augur> Gregor: oh sorry, playgirl models
05:53:38 <augur> see im not paying attention to that
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06:12:57 <Sgeo> Damn that almost!
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09:23:23 <Wareya> Good middle-of-the-night/morning
09:34:17 <fizzie> Aroudn half past eleven (am) here.
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12:47:15 <AnMaster> <Wareya> Good middle-of-the-night/morning <-- 10:22ish
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18:15:51 <fizzie> Whoo, pretty frozen-north weather again; a tree: http://zem.fi/~fis/frozen.jpg
18:37:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, what scarf said + yay noise in image
18:37:37 <AnMaster> it's rather visible in the blurry parts
18:39:03 <fizzie> It's still a phone, not a camera.
18:40:32 <fizzie> But yes, sure. It's also a bit artifacty sort of noise, probably due to some "noise-removal" image processing applied.
18:40:48 <fizzie> Admittedly my camera does equally noisy images, so... But it's not a "real" camera, at that.
18:41:10 <AnMaster> you will never get completely noise free
18:41:54 <fizzie> Guess so, but the sensors in a typical DSLR-style camera tend to be larger, which should mean significantly less noise.
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18:42:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, you could use enfuse
18:42:51 <fizzie> Sure. I did some align_image_stack+enfuse for mini-tripod-out-of-hotel-room-window-at-night shots recently.
18:42:54 <AnMaster> it did wonders for that panorama I fixed up for you if you remember
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18:44:39 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_1.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_2.jpg
18:45:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes that helped quite a bit. double the ammount of photos would have been even better (even in the latter the noise is quite noticeable)
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18:47:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it reduced the white headlight pattersn
18:47:49 <AnMaster> some more and it would have looked rather deserted
18:49:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, some manual whitebalance would have been a good idea though
18:49:28 <AnMaster> or even curve correction if raw format wasn't available on that hardware
18:49:49 <AnMaster> iirc hugin can somewhat adjust whitebalance too
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18:56:52 <fizzie> It's not so far off from the correct colors; street lighting around here tends to be pretty yellowish.
18:57:25 <fizzie> Did white-balance with the "point the camera at something white" setting, using some snow as reference-white-outside.
18:57:45 <fizzie> Sorry for the delay there, there was a cat-puke-related issue to take care of.
18:59:24 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_3.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_4.jpg might be even more dramatic; that's inside the hotel room.
19:01:35 <fizzie> The first pair was made from 6 exposures, this second one with 9.
19:03:28 <fizzie> There's also a rather funny enfuse-generated phantom in http://zem.fi/~fis/ghost_bus.jpg
19:07:43 <fizzie> (Cleaning the hotel windows every now and then would have helped, too.)
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21:38:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, that image looks green though
21:38:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Sorry for the delay there, there was a cat-puke-related issue to take care of. <-- ?
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21:40:10 <olsner> I'm guessing the "cat-puke-related" issue is actually the cat puke itself
21:40:45 <AnMaster> olsner, oh! that sounds plausible
21:41:02 <AnMaster> but I was wondering about the cake itself. Before the issue
21:41:37 <olsner> cake and cat puke don't mix
21:42:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, was it a two "floors" bus?
21:42:48 <AnMaster> the picture doesn't make much sense
21:42:55 <AnMaster> maybe another bus from another exposure?
21:43:03 <olsner> Lost doesn't make much sense either
21:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is definitely a normal bus at the bottom. But part of it seems to have another bus located higher up on top as well?
21:44:14 <olsner> well, I'm just taking whatever you say and rewriting it into something that kind of makes sense in my own context, then responding to it as if it means something else
21:45:39 <olsner> what I'm talking about is slightly more abstract than a tram, I think
21:45:59 <lament> it's buses all the way down.
21:46:11 <olsner> yeah, that's plenty abstract
21:57:17 <oklopol> are you talking about abstract vehicles
21:58:24 <fizzie> There's a tram "behind" the bus from another exposure, yes.
22:00:39 <fizzie> It's one of the yellow-green ones from http://www.raitio.org/ratikat/helsinki/hkl/luettelo/kalusto.htm
22:07:59 <AnMaster> no, abstract meta-ghost commuter vehicles
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22:41:17 <AnMaster> very well, I shall have to fill it in:
22:41:33 <AnMaster> I never meta-ghost commuter vehicle I didn't like
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