00:00:15 alise by the way have you seen Shin-Cheng Mus invertible programming language? 00:00:51 MissPiggy: yes but you can get close to swapping it 00:00:52 also no 00:00:53 alise: oh. well, thats not a bidirectional parser. ;p 00:01:01 augur: and your mom is a whore. :| 00:01:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net). 00:01:11 "MissPiggy: shut up oklopol GOD!!! I can't belive you sometimes" <<< what was this in reference to, your msgs come one pageful at a tim 00:01:12 e 00:02:43 pansexuality? 00:02:56 okpause it's re. 23:56 < oklopol> god things annoy me today, 00:03:25 okpause? 00:03:39 you know, nobody else finds oklopol annoying 00:04:00 "Besides bidirectional polytypic examples, including invertible serialization, we give the definition of a monadic bi-arrow transformer, which we use to construct a bidirectional parser/pretty printer." 00:04:09 i bet many people here find me annoying 00:04:16 oerjan: link me so I can remind myself to read it if I fail horribly at this 00:04:19 http://www.citeulike.org/user/voigt/article/342287 00:04:32 I really would like a nice Parsec-lite (I know it can't be as powerful by definition) bidi parser lib 00:04:35 oerjan: aha! so its not a "bidirectional parser" its a bidrectional (parser/pretty-printer) 00:04:38 alise: you may need some help to get behind the ACM wall 00:04:41 would make toy languages so much nicer 00:04:48 jehova's witnesses came today 00:04:50 i hear augur is useful for that 00:04:54 just write one quick syntax definition and I get my pretty-printer free 00:04:57 oerjan: ah, thanks 00:05:04 ;( 00:05:10 Jehovah's Type Witnesses. 00:05:19 i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything 00:05:19 disciples of Agda 00:05:20 it was a joke alise 00:05:28 important figures include the prophet Coq 00:05:30 MissPiggy: oh, right 00:05:37 MissPiggy: it's just that you're normally like that so I wasn't sure :D 00:05:41 lol 00:05:41 (that was another one of them jokes) 00:05:45 oklopol: HA 00:05:55 shoulda taped it 00:06:13 I never talked to any jumping johosephats 00:06:35 Sequence :: Syntax t b -> (b -> Syntax t a) -> Syntax t a 00:06:42 whoops, looks like a monad slipped in 00:07:13 http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/p86-alimarine.pdf 00:07:16 alise: it was just the first google hit for bidirectional parsing haskell, anyhow 00:07:55 shoulda taped what? 00:07:58 the witnesses? 00:08:03 i often talk to them 00:08:05 yeah 00:08:08 i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything 00:08:09 comedy gold 00:08:25 :D 00:08:48 you like my responsiveness? :) 00:09:33 augur what's that? 00:09:45 the link is the paper that oerjan is referring to 00:09:53 from behind ACM access barriers 00:09:54 alise: i'm afraid of being too frank with jehovas, i'm afraid something i say makes them understand they're completely wasting their life, which i find a horrible thought 00:09:57 awwors 00:10:17 oklopol you rare nice :) 00:10:24 i'm always careful around people who i think are doing something wrong 00:10:30 augur: didn't even notice whoa 00:10:40 augur: you should set up a website that automates that :P 00:10:41 and get sued 00:10:48 :P 00:10:50 MissPiggy: dunno, i think i'm just a coward 00:10:51 actually 00:10:59 the problem is more that i couldnt even make it work 00:11:06 the ACM search tool doesnt work right 00:11:12 I am hello 00:11:43 and i'm afraid of convincing people about anything, because if i convinced them about something that's wrong, that would be just horrible 00:12:11 well don't worry about convincing me of anything 00:12:14 because I don't mind 00:12:17 infact I like it 00:12:38 have you heard me talk about stuff? i'm not very convincing. 00:12:49 well 00:12:58 i guess that's just a reason for you not to be worried, not me 00:13:06 oklopol: "If you take the life lie from an average man, you take away his happiness as well." 00:13:21 (Ibsen) 00:13:43 i hate it when my crazy thoughts are shared by less crazy people 00:13:54 what's so crazy about ____________ 00:14:11 nothing really 00:14:13 although the translation is a bit deceiving, the norwegian "med det samme" can mean "at once" as well as "as well" 00:15:15 (also the original is gender neutral) 00:15:31 er, except from pronouns, which cannot be 00:17:08 "the life lie" is awkward 00:17:17 "the life's lie", maybe. 00:17:52 perhaps. the original is "livsløgnen", which i suspect was a word ibsen invented but which is immediately understandable 00:18:03 i prefer life lie 00:18:03 because it looks like a typoed life line 00:18:03 ...or maybe for some other reason 00:18:47 (and the -s- is just for word combining, although it _is_ etymologically a genitive ending) 00:19:01 yeah utilitarianism and knowledgeisawesomeism are kind of conflicting 00:19:04 which disturbs me 00:20:59 ethics is too complicated 00:22:28 "Ibsen er trolig årsaken til at begrepet livsløgn er i allmenn bruk i de nordiske land, mens den engelske oversettelsen life lie riktignok blir brukt men i mindre omfang." 00:23:03 i.e. it's used in the nordic countries, but not much in english (which is why i could only find it on norwegian wikipedia i presume 00:23:19 ) 00:23:37 (also in german) 00:25:28 well, http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/3546/The-Life-Lie.html is in english 00:26:41 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:27:47 ooh, I have an idea for making sure all the values are used in the resulting AST 00:28:02 give it back as a Foo x instead of an x, where the value-constructing function takes Foo xs instead of xs 00:28:15 that way, you can keep track of the state of which values you've demanded 00:28:21 and you can't just go yeah demand it >> ignore the result 00:28:25 because you can't personally do it 00:28:50 is that Foo a monad return or a comonadic coreturn... 00:30:15 wait coreturn would be Foo a -> a 00:30:16 it's just 00:30:24 data Foo a = Foo a 00:30:27 except the constructor is not exposed 00:30:34 so only the value-constructor can dereference them 00:30:42 and when it does, it'll mark that parse result as used 00:30:54 if you have any unused results at the end, you are a very naughty boy 00:31:03 and it cannot be unparsed without specifying a default value somewhere 00:31:05 feels like a monad then 00:31:29 if it feels like a monad and it quacks like a monad... 00:31:32 or wait, you might not expose something for >>= or join either 00:31:46 right 00:32:23 hm right if you had those you could do >> and ignore the result, so not allowed 00:33:20 i think this will be a lot easier if i define `type Bijection a b = (a->b, b->a) 00:33:35 so that PP t a = Bijection [t] a 00:34:09 erm 00:34:12 (Maybe [t]) (Maybe a) 00:34:23 although i could do with some fromJust there or sth 00:34:46 type UncertainBijection a b = (a->Maybe b, b->Maybe a) :P 00:34:58 and it needs to be Maybe (a,[t]) anyway... 00:38:30 UncertainBijection? 00:38:35 yeah :P 00:38:58 yes well you definitely don't have a bijection between text and syntax 00:39:12 shaddap 00:39:14 it is useful though 00:39:18 maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a 00:39:18 maptok (f,g) (p,u) = 00:39:18 (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> (a, f xs')) $ p (map g xs) 00:39:18 ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> map f xs) (u a)) 00:39:19 I don't know why it is useful 00:39:40 er, that doesn't quite type yet :D 00:40:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:41:23 maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a 00:41:23 maptok (f,g) (p,u) = 00:41:23 (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> Just (a, map f xs')) $ p (map g xs) 00:41:23 ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> Just (map f xs)) (u a)) 00:41:24 there 00:42:21 -!- augur has changed nick to HPGrice. 00:42:30 -!- HPGrice has changed nick to augur. 00:53:13 meh 00:53:18 oerjan: does that paper include an implementation? 00:54:05 heck if i know, i only googled it 00:54:18 bah 00:54:21 (and maybe vaguely recalled hearing about it) 00:54:48 if not, maybe search for the author home pages? 00:56:25 oh the article is on citeseerx, so the ACM wall wasn't necessary 00:56:27 you'd think this would be - no you wouldn't 00:58:55 alise: http://www.cs.ru.nl/A.vanWeelden/index.php?p=downloads 00:59:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:59:35 "generic haskell" wow 00:59:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:59:54 well it does have parser->dumper 01:00:06 but god knows it'd take four years to translate it to modern haskell 01:00:16 ouch 01:00:39 generic haskell o_o 01:00:52 yeah it has like {|x|y} and shit in arguments 01:01:03 i think it's the predecessor to syb 01:01:14 doing it via generalised invertible arrows is a good idea though 01:01:18 * MissPiggy pukes 01:01:23 at least i think it's that 01:03:51 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:04:31 class Arrow arr => BiArrow arr where 01:04:32 (<->) :: (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> arr a b 01:04:32 inv :: arr a b -> arr b a 01:04:33 so it's just what i did 01:04:34 boring 01:05:43 seems there is nothing based on it in hackage, although Data.Bijection refers to it 01:06:40 also Data.Partial 01:06:52 -!- lament has joined. 01:07:15 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/TypeCompose/0.6.7/doc/html/Data-Bijection.html 01:12:42 * alise compiles Pure 01:14:30 whats Pure 01:14:52 http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/; Q's begetee 01:15:13 Less obfuscatorarily, the successor to Q. 01:15:21 ahh 01:15:43 If LLVM isn't up-to-date enough on this old Ubuntu version I'll just use Q instead. 01:16:34 de bruijn is sexy. 01:16:46 that is indexes 01:17:59 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:18:45 yeah lol 01:20:46 i'm thinking 01:20:50 dependently typed tree rewriting 01:20:54 or 01:20:55 ;} 01:20:59 dependently typed functional applicative 01:21:02 one of them is the way forward 01:21:11 what is functional applicative? 01:21:22 your regular applicative, functional language 01:21:24 haskell, agda, etc 01:21:27 ML 01:22:17 I think I will implement Lamping 01:22:17 's algorithm 01:22:17 in haskell 01:22:20 i thought haskell sucked 01:22:34 yeah it does and I decided not to code this 01:23:02 what is so bad about haskell? 01:23:18 apart from dependent types which you say are overrated and unicode which you dislike it's not that far from agda 01:23:20 MissPiggy likes bugs. 01:23:21 :P 01:23:25 I dont like agda either 01:23:31 does agda suck though? 01:23:32 Wait, you dislike Unicode? 01:23:42 I said overuse is bad 01:23:43 e dislikes gratuitous unicode in languages 01:23:47 just a bit is quite fine 01:23:54 私はあなたをころしたい！ 01:24:02 I dont' know Java :( 01:24:29 alise: ... 01:24:37 what 01:24:51 I love Unicode in languages. 01:25:43 programming languages e means 01:25:55 Yes. 01:25:57 I'm ambivalent towards it 01:26:01 on the one hand I like the concept 01:26:05 on the other hand it's a bitch to type 01:26:52 I'm solving that problem by defining a not-entirely-pretty ASCII representation, and an all-out no-holds-barred TeX'd-up two-dimensional symbolerific presentation form. 01:27:04 A good editor would let you type the former to write the latter. 01:27:08 alise 01:27:11 Basically like Fortress does. 01:27:13 01:24 < MissPiggy> cizra what about prolog? 01:27:19 01:25 < cizra> MissPiggy: Haven't shown her that (= It's too hairy for my tastes 01:27:24 01:26 < cizra> MissPiggy: Might be.. But I don't know much Prolog, so it'd be perilous to teach it to a newb. 01:27:47 lol @ "I hate prolog it's $vauge-and-meaningless-negative-term" --> "I don't know anything about prolog" 01:27:52 ? 01:28:06 he didn't say I hate prolog 01:28:09 oh 01:28:31 He said it's too hairy for his tastes, i.e. his personal sthetic response to it is a negative one, expressed as "hairy". 01:28:43 Maybe he has bad taste, but that's an opinion too. :P 01:29:09 also, not much != nothing 01:31:28 jane@jane-desktop:~/pure/pure-0.42$ pure 01:31:28 Segmentation fault 01:31:42 it worked in /usr/local >_< 01:31:53 $ pure 01:31:53 hahahaahahahahahahaa 01:31:53 bash: pure: command not found 01:31:55 haha WHAT 01:32:05 ... it removed itself 01:32:13 oh wait i didn't actually make install 01:32:13 lol 01:32:18 (but, WHAT) 01:32:27 lol it seppuku 01:32:33 I wish GNU/Prolog would seppuku 01:32:34 but there was no pure(1) :-D 01:32:42 its ghost went ohai then transcended 01:32:43 MissPiggy: why? 01:32:45 swi fan? :P 01:32:53 no I hate swi as well :(( 01:32:58 what do you like 01:33:01 even though it's the best prolog implementation in the world 01:33:20 (I hate swi because they got right of "no.") 01:33:35 i'd've though swi would be the prolog for swine 01:33:45 :p 01:34:07 *thought 01:34:39 er, right of "no."? 01:34:54 wow I just found some awesome papers about lambda shared graph reduction 01:35:16 MissPiggy: what's "right of "no."?" supposed to mean? 01:35:24 *-? 01:35:58 oerjan: should have said 'rid of', when you do something in prolog and it fails it should print: no. -- but they changed it to print: false instead.. so they can claim the prolog query is a partial evaluation 01:36:03 evaluator 01:36:36 MissPiggy: lol pure actually has features from aardappel 01:36:37 the esolang 01:36:39 and credits it with them 01:37:40 http://strlen.com/aardappel/ ? 01:38:09 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:47:09 yeah 01:47:20 from the creator of Saurbrauten and FALSE 01:47:30 *Sauerbraten 01:53:44 potato! :D 01:55:40 Pure is sexy 01:57:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:57:41 Finally I fixed my OpenID service. (I just got a different library, and wrote the forms and stuff myself, using that library.) 01:58:21 good 02:01:48 It is currently a single-user service, but I could upgrade it to multi-user service, too. 02:02:05 Not that that would help you any :P 02:03:26 Yes, of course I don't need multi-user service, but I can program it as such in case anyone else wants a OpenID service on my server (you have to provide the Identity URL, Login Name, and Password MD5 Hash, and then I *might* consider it, but I will never support automated registration of accounts on my service) 02:05:27 Of course I can also add multi-user service just in case I might want multiple OpenID just by myself, even. 02:06:07 This is the library I used, in case you are interested: http://openidenabled.com/php-openid/ 02:06:46 That's the library that Hackiki uses as a consumer too :P 02:07:06 OK, thanks. 02:07:16 I guess it can work! 02:07:55 There seems to be a few things missing in the documentation, though. 02:08:28 Such as any useful documentation whatsoever :P 02:09:02 However, I did eventually figure it out, and it isn't really that difficult. 02:11:10 I just tried to log in on Hackiki and it works perfectly fine. 02:14:08 Hackiki is a bit strange features, it even allows anyone to edit the way the wiki syntax works 02:14:48 That's the primary feature :P 02:15:04 Yes, I know it is 02:17:07 Apparently I end every line with a tongue-smiley :P 02:18:19 Sometimes my misuse of smileys gets out of hand. 02:18:52 Gregor: Alas. 02:18:57 hexosexual: Attracted to six. <-- last found counterexample 02:19:26 Weird that both of those unrelated lines came at once :P 02:20:31 I segfaulted pure \o/ 02:20:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:20:57 > 3 % 3; 02:20:57 warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a; 02:20:57 warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a; 02:20:57 warning: rule never reduced: a%b = a div d%(b div d) when d = gcd a b end; 02:20:57 warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a; 02:20:58 warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b); 02:21:00 warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a; 02:21:02 warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b); 02:21:04 Segmentation fault 02:21:08 I may not fully understand how to use this language 02:21:13 lol fault 02:21:22 turns out it's just a crap implementation 02:21:24 faultblog.org 02:21:30 MissPiggy: it's just an immature impl 02:21:31 new lang 02:21:36 fancy technology 02:21:37 etc 02:22:44 !c printf("Does this still work?") 02:22:53 Does this still work? 02:22:58 aha, it's the % name 02:23:00 poop works 02:23:10 > poop 3 3; 02:23:10 1 02:23:10 > poop 73 9; 02:23:10 [hang] 02:23:31 stupid thing 02:25:12 http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 02:25:15 alise, are you capable of reminding yourself? Tomorrow may be a mess for me 02:25:17 space walk starting soon 02:25:21 if you like video of space 02:25:44 Sgeo: ok 02:26:34 MissPiggy: cool they're talking and stuff 02:26:43 seeing the earth swirl is whoa, never realised it was so... fast, i guess 02:26:47 and 02:26:47 stuff 02:27:21 hehe 02:27:45 i find space terrifying :/ 02:27:57 not the sheer emptiness, just the sheer... sheerness 02:28:08 I know what you mean 02:29:27 Poop a 1 = a; 02:29:28 Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end; 02:29:31 the problem here is when d = 1 02:29:38 it goes into an infinite loop 02:29:41 space man is out!!!!!! 02:29:47 omg /me unpause 02:29:47 s 02:29:53 FUCKIN LOAD 02:29:55 he just wormed out :D 02:29:58 he's hiding lol 02:30:06 haha 02:30:09 camofuckinflauge 02:30:19 whoa i thought this place was bigger than that 02:30:21 in space everything is wapped in future 02:30:23 like, giant man 02:30:25 me too 02:30:27 he is stuck to the lid 02:30:39 are you sure this is not a robot 02:30:39 he's just trolling 02:30:40 ignore him 02:30:53 also, wapped in future? 02:30:54 wat 02:30:56 it's mostly robot.. the way he moves etc 02:31:02 but it's a person inside it 02:31:14 HE WAS ARTIFICIAL... 02:31:16 BUT HE HAD... 02:31:17 A HUMAN SOUL 02:31:21 SPACEWALKER 02:31:22 LOL 02:31:23 In cinemas this summer 02:32:26 what is he doing with that thing he is holding 02:32:33 just sort of admiring it? 02:34:14 oh my god there's two of them 02:34:20 !!!! what if they breed !!!! 02:35:06 that was actually my first thought 02:35:10 i've no idea why 02:35:12 :))) 02:37:11 MissPiggy: tree rewriting 'pinyun from you so I can blame or not blame Pure 02:37:13 Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end; 02:37:18 if d = 1, this reduces to Poop a b 02:37:28 should this be an infinite loop, or should the equality of the reduction halt evaluation? 02:37:37 it should halt! 02:37:48 ok. that was my expectation too. but, 02:37:52 then how do you write an infinite loop? 02:38:12 loop = do nothing `then` loop 02:38:24 = do nothing `then` do nothing `then` loop 02:38:31 sort of like a monad ? 02:38:37 that's just seq 02:38:44 but seq is semantically nonsense in a pure language 02:38:48 try again 02:39:02 also, that causes heap overflow if you run it long enough 02:40:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:42:37 are you seeing this first person space cam? 02:42:50 alise: Oh, seq has some semantic meaning in a pure language. Just exceptionally useless meaning. 02:43:04 Defined as follows: _ `seq` b = b 02:43:07 :P 02:43:53 MissPiggy: i stopped watching :/ 02:44:01 pikhq: well also _|_ `seq` b = _|_ 02:44:05 but _|_ is nonsense! 02:44:11 alise: Heheheh. 02:44:22 if you could pattern-match on _|_ you'd define 02:44:27 _|_ `seq` _ = _|_ 02:44:29 _ `seq` b = b 02:44:40 but turing shat on that party before we even thought of it 02:44:51 Damned halting problem. 02:44:56 you don't like space!!!!! 02:45:01 you are an enemy of space 02:47:36 you can pattern match on _|_, but only if the result is _|_ 02:47:47 zzo38: When you use medit (the meta-editor), it always creates a file that uses the .wiki wiki engine, which puts its own HTML template around the page. It has a hidden chebang line. Use edit, change the chebang line to any other language (e.g. bash), and you can control the whole page. 02:48:20 zzo38: Oh, didn't see the latest edits. 02:48:39 zzo38: In that case, use /bin/bash and do something like cat < zzo38: Alternatively, just make an HTML file, then access it by the 'view' command: .../wiki/view/ 02:49:32 hm is (! _) `seq` x = x a legal definition of seq in haskell... 02:50:15 OK, thanks. But still: Why doesn't #!/bin/grep -v ^#! works? It works on the MinGW command-line if the command is entered manually on the MinGW command-line. 02:50:30 zzo38: Then mingw doesn't handle chebang lines properly. 02:50:35 Oh 02:50:39 If the command is entered manually. 02:50:55 zzo38: chebang lines don't support multiple arguments. Everything after the command is taken as one argument, potentially with spaces. 02:50:56 MinGW creates the same error if you try to execute the file. 02:51:10 O, so that's why. 02:52:54 Gregor: It's shebang. 02:53:06 oh wait ! patterns are an extension 02:53:09 alise: Is there really a correct spelling of a word that's nonsense? :P 02:53:11 Yeah, definitely shebang. 02:53:19 Gregor: It's not nonsense. 02:53:26 Chebang is an archaic spelling of shebang, i.e. stuff and lots and everything and whatnot, but shebang as jargon is spelled with an s. 02:53:26 Gregor: It's a contraction of "hash-bang". 02:53:33 Where hash is # and bang is ! 02:53:47 And because it lets you say "I accidentally the whole shebang" 02:53:58 chez-le-bang 02:54:12 pikhq: Quay? I thought it was just the onomatopoeia, like che-BANG! 02:54:15 The fact that it overlaps with "stuff" and such is... I'm not sure what. 02:55:04 I still use chebang, so fleh you :P 02:55:54 Shebangsexual, i.e. she bangs the shebang. 02:56:03 X-D 02:56:04 *she bangs shebangs 02:56:10 (why did I do it the worse way first?) 02:56:12 She bangs the whole chebang 02:59:48 alise they are flying into a sunset 03:00:20 are they breeding 03:00:32 not yet lol 03:00:44 they're just putting up a tent or something 03:00:44 the space went off 03:00:46 i am bored now 03:01:46 Huh? I created a file and now when I try to edit it, it is blank. But other than that, the file still works. 03:02:39 Oh? 03:02:53 they're in space still... 03:03:00 zzo38: Should probably move this convo to #hackiki :P 03:03:12 OK 03:04:38 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 03:06:10 I don't think he really had to leave here to go there :P 03:06:36 actually he might, didn't his personal irc client only allow 1 channel per server? 03:15:16 Possibly. Actually, wasn't it similar to my RawIRC? That is, he could be on multiple channels, but since he's just getting raw messages, it'd be confusing. 03:17:54 it is like that, yes 03:20:39 He is rather... Odd. 03:20:56 Yes 03:21:53 You don't say. 03:25:12 well _someone_ has to help the rest of us feel almost normal 03:28:24 -!- coppro has joined. 03:34:17 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:34:38 -!- alise has joined. 03:39:49 http://pure-lang.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pure/lib/quasiquote.pure quasiquoting in Pure, with syntax, implemented inside the language 03:42:57 -!- jcp has joined. 03:44:36 cool! 03:49:04 MissPiggy: yeah that's what you get with flexible ops + term rewriting + a simpler quoting operation (in this case, ' = quote) 03:49:40 alise ummm question is.. 03:49:56 would you still have a curry-howard interpretation with dependent term rewriting? 03:50:10 well, the lambda calculus is a term rewriting system 03:50:27 but no like this crazy stuff 03:50:31 terms are close enough to functions with slightly odd behaviour that i'm sure you could formulate a very similar isomorphism 03:50:43 MissPiggy: well this crazy stuff is just because pure has quote :P 03:50:47 and because 03:50:47 def quasiquote x = qq (quote x); 03:50:48 is a macro 03:50:56 so quasiquote 2+2 -> qq (quote 2+2) 03:51:08 it's actually just an ast processor, more or less. 03:51:59 MissPiggy: btw term languages solve the expression problem 03:52:24 untyped languages like Pure do it by letting you extend terms, and having sugar for "typed" things 03:52:33 and since terms are untyped you can extend them at will 03:52:49 ok, so there's no _obligation_ to defined all the terms in the table for the new row 03:52:53 but it almost solves it 03:53:03 same thing in my typed one, basically 03:55:14 loll how does it solve expression problem 03:55:18 by the way 03:55:21 because you can extend functions basically 03:55:24 almost same thing 03:55:29 (with values of different types) 03:55:33 (for args) 03:55:36 does expression problem demand that the compiler tells you if there's a cell in the matrix missing? 03:55:46 yes, that's the missing piece 03:55:50 otherwise it breaks safety 03:55:58 because you pass it to some code going oh it's a table i know all this will go just fine 03:55:59 KRR 03:56:01 UNDEFINED FUNCTION 03:56:02 BEEP BEEP BEEP 03:56:06 WHAT DO I DO WHAT DO I *DO* 03:56:34 DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER 03:56:50 mm 03:56:55 it's easy to solve this in lisp :P 03:57:07 I doubt any language is better than lisp for the expression problem 03:57:17 apart from one that's built for it... 03:58:37 oh yeah that's ture 03:58:39 true* 03:59:12 i really wish programming language manuals were written better 03:59:44 I'm not sure why programmers tend to be bad writers; good English style is the same procedure as good programming style, just plugging in another set of idioms. 03:59:47 Eh, they're usually written by programmers :P 03:59:48 If you can organise programs, why not prose? 03:59:54 yeah I should practice wrting 04:00:03 Because prose requires eloquence 04:00:13 alise: I'd say it's more a matter of perspective. 04:00:34 merely stringing together a complete and accurate description of a language is what we call an International Standard 04:00:46 coppro: Does it, though? Eloquence seems, to me, to be a rather less wishy-washy and emotional thing as everyone says it is: the creators of elegant programming languages should be able to write elegant text about it, because it's the same thing. 04:01:03 It's hardly the same thing! 04:01:08 Also, standards are not manuals. Standards can be eloquent too, but it matters much less, as they should be as formal as possible. 04:01:47 coppro: In programs, we organise definitions in a certain way, split definitions up in a certain way, name variables in a certain way, order our functions' arguments in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the program read easier. 04:02:24 In prose, we organise text in a certain way, split text up in a certain way, (ok, that one isn't applicable), order our text in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the text read easier. 04:02:26 none of that applies to great prose 04:02:36 I'm not asking for great prose, just good writing. 04:02:40 There /is/ a difference. 04:02:47 good prose, even 04:02:59 prose constructed by formula can be horrible 04:03:05 Certainly, a manual is not the domain of prose; but why is it not the domain of good writing? 04:03:13 a manual is absolutely in the domain of prose 04:03:19 coppro: And we don't write idiomatic code by formula, either. 04:03:34 but we do! 04:03:48 But code is basically prose. 04:03:52 hardly 04:03:53 It's just in a different language. 04:03:58 prose has a very specific definition 04:04:07 I'm not sure what that is, but it's specific 04:04:13 and I know programming is not it 04:04:28 Whatever you say, I certainly think I write prose, text, whatever you wish to call whatever subset we are talking about, with the same idiomatic organisation as I do code. 04:04:33 good prose and good programming in fact require the opposite sets of skills 04:05:05 good prose generally needs a formulated overall concept, while the individual portions are filled in by the creativity and ability of the writer 04:05:38 good programming needs a creative and abled programmer to set up the concept, at which point the individual portions could be completed by any semi-competent programmer 04:06:15 No; units of code call libraries, they don't "fill them in". 04:06:23 I don't mean like that 04:06:35 Interface design is the tricky part of programming 04:06:39 Anyway, whatever; I can write good code and prose, so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I clearly should write the greatest manual for the greatest language. :P 04:06:42 A good interface leads itself to be coded easily 04:07:01 In prose, the opposite is true 04:07:16 hey, I can too! 04:07:28 I use more semicolons than you. 04:07:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:07:54 Disagree; grep the logs. 04:07:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:08:52 Since I don't do GUIs, does that mean I'm a bad programmer? 04:09:10 Sgeo: interface design what it means fail you 04:09:16 oh god, I wrote a huge line and it disappeared and no control-z 04:09:18 * alise writes it again 04:09:42 Sgeo: It means you're a sane programmer 04:09:51 coppro: he thought you meant 'interface design' = gui design 04:09:55 oh 04:10:06 ah, your previous sentence makes sense now 04:10:47 I refined my semicolon usage by, paradoxically, ceasing to use it altogether; it was popping itself in to places where it was awkward, and I felt I was using it far too much, so I decided to abstain from it in the hopes that it would improve my writing. It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places, places that had seemed awkward in its absence. 04:11:28 I think that should have been an em dash 04:11:36 Where? 04:11:41 instead of the semicolon 04:11:47 There were two in that sentence. 04:11:55 first sentence 04:12:01 second also, actually 04:12:26 I try to avoid the em-dash, anyway; it's a very heavy piece of punctuation, and since I tend to write sentences whose clauses interlink, I postulate that it makes a sentence harder to read most of the time--for me, at least. 04:12:31 second is certainly not an appropriate use of the semicolon; the two statements it separates should, on their own, be valid sentences. 04:12:42 And yes, that was two hyphens; I haven't got any nice Compose setup here. 04:12:53 I just use a single hyphen 04:12:57 coppro: Ah, I criticised ais523 for that once; he gave me a sound thrashing. 04:13:12 Semicolons do not have to be able to be replaced by a full stop. 04:13:29 For the most part, they should 04:13:33 He presented irrefutable proof which has slipped out of my mind. 04:13:58 there are other uses of the semicolon which are valid (for instance, in lists) 04:14:09 Anyway, a semicolon followed by "and" is quite often a useful construct, though a prescriptivist would argue that starting a sentence with "And" is abhorrent. The same goes for "but". 04:14:20 coppro: I am referring to sentences. 04:14:31 I don't agree it should necessarily be replaceable by a full stop, but it needs to separate full clauses 04:15:22 I think my usage was correct. I might change it, if you show that it wasn't, as long as it isn't prescriptivist mumblings. 04:15:30 hmm, actually, I think I'd punctuate that sentence as follows 04:15:32 So, then, you'll have to show it's wrong as in confusing or awkward. 04:15:41 Or incredibly uncommon. 04:15:42 "It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places -- places that had seemed awkward in its absence." 04:16:15 Indeed, I believe that the first time I wrote that sentence, "frequency; but" was how it went. 04:16:41 it was 04:16:51 Personally, I think that em-dashes should only be used when the link between the two sides is weak, and the right side is heavy. 04:17:10 Or, of course, to serve as an alternative to parentheses for not-quite parenthical remarks. 04:17:16 *parenthetical 04:17:22 In that case, I think the em dash is appropriate because you repeat the noun 04:18:50 Perhaps. I'd argue that a reader, rather than someone obviously looking to critique (can IRC facilitate *anything* that isn't competitive? :) ), wouldn't find it awkward. 04:19:06 Something that *is* awkward: smilies before a right parenthesis. 04:19:16 yes! 04:19:18 After that abomination, I think ":))" will now be my preferred option. 04:19:31 yeah, I usually go that route 04:20:49 http://xkcd.com/541/ 04:20:56 Incidentally, I have the urge to substitute the / ligatures wherever those two letters appear. 04:21:04 I'm not even sure if that's correct, but the urge nevertheless appears. 04:22:12 It's correct in most cases where they appear adjacent 04:22:34 Oh, and to endow words like "premptive" with a diresis. 04:22:54 (Interesting fact: onomatopia is not actually onomatopic.) 04:23:09 Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example cofficint), but for compound words there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zeeend (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend.[3] 04:23:20 This is zeeend for you, my sea-duck-loving friend. 04:23:52 * oerjan swats alise -----### 04:24:04 Gregor: What was that wonderful free verse you wrote about free verse? 04:24:23 It ended "The problem with free verse, it seems, to me / is that it's just an excuse for ? to write prose and call it poetry.", I believe. 04:25:21 Free verse is just a way to write prose with the structure being a piece of the text 04:25:33 It was a joke, you see. 04:25:53 It was RHYMING free verse! 04:25:54 alise: Can't find it :( 04:26:07 Gregor: Grep logs for "call it poetry"? 04:26:14 That's what I'm trying. 04:26:25 Here's a really boring holy war: Single or double quotes for main quotations? 04:26:49 I say double; single quotes are just too thin and light for that purpose. I prefer nesting alternately. True Britons will go for single quotes, though. 04:26:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:27:26 is 'rakefile' a joke? 04:27:35 like the rubyists are making fun of engrish? 04:28:08 No, rake = Ruby mAKE. 04:28:24 If it was Lakefile, perhaps you'd have a point. :P 04:29:01 coppro: Also: uh, I had better think of some typographical choice to put towards you. 04:29:03 lakefire 04:29:10 Can haiku be prose? Is this a useful concept? Is it just nonsense? 04:29:53 coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing? 04:30:47 makefile, not wall 04:31:14 coppro: You know, I never said /not speaking/ was an option. :P 04:32:05 alise: he's an american. they seem to think remaining silent is some kind of _right_ 04:32:15 He's Canadian, actually... 04:32:24 ah 04:32:47 darn i was reading his server location as his real one 04:33:11 Just ping him a lot. coppro, that is. 04:33:44 hm i thought lindbohm was only for ipv6, but i seem to be on it 04:34:11 alise: I can't found it, but I did find this: Of course, that isn't fair. Formula for rap: Take two notes, repeat 600 times while making racist and sexist remarks that rhyme. Formula for pop: Take two CHORDS, repeat 600 times while (sort of) SINGING sexist remarks that rhyme. 04:34:38 I can'tfound it! 04:34:46 Confound? Can'tfound? Laugh? Oh well. 04:34:53 Gregor: Did you search for only lines by you? 04:34:56 Perhaps you were on a different nick. 04:35:05 Hm, good point. 04:35:05 Bleh 04:35:17 I can't found it in that I can't create it, like founding a city, y'know? :P 04:35:18 Just search for "call it poetry". 04:35:27 WAIT 04:35:31 Just search for "call it ptry". 04:35:37 Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1 04:35:50 it isn't is it 04:36:00 because it's o-e 04:36:27 Free verse is better than rhyming, \ For there's no need to worry of timing, \ The problem you see, \ With free verse, to me, \ Is that it's just an excuse for lazy people to write prose and call it poetry. 04:36:41 The joke was that the last line was not the right number of syllables :P 04:36:45 Yes. 04:37:17 But you were right, that was the thing to grep for >_> 04:37:52 As opposed to "hot bukkake norse fish mario sonic william howard taft". 04:37:58 (I was using the term "blank verse" instead of "free verse" there, but was grepping for "free verse" >_< ) 04:38:22 Well, free verse is the term you used in the poem, so it should have found it. 04:38:34 No, I used the term blank verse in the poem. 04:38:40 I just rewrote it as free verse here :P 04:38:46 Ah, okay. 04:39:08 Blank verse ≠ free verse, however. 04:39:25 No, 'snot, but they both happen to fit the theme. 04:39:32 Blank verse has meter, though, so free verse is probably better to use. 04:39:44 Ohyeah 04:39:51 There was a young lady called Jenny \ Whose limericks weren't worth a penny \ They started out sound \ But somehow she found \ That whenever she tried to write any \ She always wrote one line too many. 04:40:02 oerjan: Ha 04:40:21 oerjan: That's so hilariously awkward to read. 04:40:29 how so? 04:40:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:40:37 Because I'm expecting it to be a limerick. 04:40:38 Then it isn't. 04:40:57 great 04:41:12 There was an old man \ From Peru, whose lim'ricks all \ Look'd like haiku. He 04:41:12 Said with a laugh "I \ Cut them in half, the pay is \ Much better for two." 04:41:54 alise: Outstanding. 04:42:07 There once was a [person] from [place] \ Whose [body part] was [special case]. \ When [event] would occur, \ It would cause [him or her] \ To violate [law of time/space]. 04:42:09 sorry, alise, I was watching those sporty things 04:42:11 A woman in liquor production \ Owns a still of exquisite construction. \ The alcohol boils \ Through magnetic coils. \ She says that it's "proof by induction." 04:42:27 A UNIX saleslady, Lenore, \ Enjoys work, but she likes the beach more. \ She found a good way \ To combine work and play: \ She sells C shells by the seashore. 04:42:28 I love that site 04:42:35 And, you know, every other limerick in the top 150. 04:42:39 (http://limerickdb.com/?top150) 04:43:20 There once was a small juicy orange, \ ...fuck. 04:43:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:44:50 There once was an X from place B, \ That satisfied predicate P, \ He or she did thing A, \ In an adjective way, \ Resulting in circumstance C. 04:45:11 coppro: Anyway, answer all the questions I queued up for you. :P 04:45:23 coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing? 04:45:24 Just search for "call it ptry". 04:45:24 Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1 04:45:24 it isn't is it 04:45:24 because it's o-e 04:45:30 Only two, actually. :P 04:45:44 alise: Weird how well "adjective" can sound like an adjective ... 04:45:50 Gregor: Yeah. 04:46:07 He walked pronoun to the front door. 04:46:24 alise: Not a fan of &c., and poëtry! 04:46:25 "Yes," said Proper Noun, "I'll see you after dinner." 04:46:55 coppro: Indeed, &c. appears most strange until you realise that if you pick the right typeface and set it in italics, you see what looks like Etc. (but with a curly E). 04:47:06 It looks beautiful, but why? Because the ampersand used to be a ligature for "et". 04:47:50 right 04:49:02 you could do s/pronoun/adverb/ 04:49:46 BAD POETRY #4 04:49:47 Premptive potry tries to avoid \ a bad course of action, to make null and void \ such an undesirable path it is, we see \ the future that follows it is misery. 04:49:51 THIS WAS 04:49:53 BAD POETRY 04:49:55 with alise 04:49:57 THE TOPIC WAS 04:50:06 "MORE BAD POETRY" 04:50:07 Bad poems purely for the sake of using two diathingies in two words juxtaposed. 04:50:20 GreaseMonkey: Oops. Of course, I meant adverb. 04:50:32 Oh freddled gruntbuggly? Thy micturations are to me \ As plurdled gabbleblotchis on a lurgid bee. 04:50:37 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 04:50:43 pronoun can work, as in "he walked me" or "he walked her" 04:51:03 alise: There's more where that came from 04:52:06 ... I killed her 04:54:27 -!- rocketman has joined. 04:54:28 -!- rocketman has quit (Changing host). 04:54:28 -!- rocketman has joined. 04:55:35 * coppro will have to complain to Wikipedia that there's a lethal weapon on their page 04:55:43 what are yoy kids talking about 04:55:49 you* 04:56:26 * MissPiggy awnts to install fortress 04:57:10 * augur installs MissPiggy's fortress 04:57:12 ;o ;o ;o 04:57:17 lol 04:57:47 coppro: http://imgur.com/7jvO1.png Two fancy ampersands; I prefer the latter. 04:57:50 MissPiggy, there's not much to actually install 04:58:05 They both look like "etc.", though. 04:58:06 alise: Yeah, I really like the latter 04:58:12 Sgeo: He mens the programming language. 04:58:16 Oh 04:58:19 In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent 04:58:22 alise: Spam, spam egg spam and spam. 04:58:32 coppro: URW Palladio L. 04:58:45 Oblique, of course. 04:58:54 Erm, no. 04:58:55 Italic. 04:58:59 I always mix those two up. 04:59:34 who he 04:59:53 also, it's good to see that you've recovered 05:00:01 Who recovered from what? 05:00:01 alise: use google 05:00:08 And what do you mean, who he? 05:00:08 alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=And+what+do+you+mean%2C+who+he 05:00:21 ...and when did rocketman appear out of nowhere? 05:00:21 alise: try google. 05:00:28 Tset? 05:00:28 alise: GIYF!! 05:00:42 x? 05:00:42 alise: never heard of google? 05:00:47 MissPiggy: remind me are you cis- or trans-girl? 05:00:47 augur: try google. 05:00:49 coppro: say "x?" 05:00:53 ah, never mind 05:00:56 rocketman: what 05:01:01 rocketman is logged in as fax 05:01:02 :| 05:01:03 apparently a bot 05:01:03 a? 05:01:04 alise: use google 05:01:04 a? 05:01:04 alise: use google 05:01:04 a? 05:01:04 alise: http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/ 05:01:04 a? 05:01:04 alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=a 05:01:05 alise: you recovered from the poetry 05:01:06 a? 05:01:06 alise: use google 05:01:09 coppro: ah. 05:01:29 alise: Yeah, I really like the latter 05:01:30 In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent 05:01:34 Really like = not abhorrent! 05:01:46 Right! 05:02:28 http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 - space 05:02:37 alise: If you bothered to read the logs, I thought I'd killed you 05:02:42 MissPiggy! :| 05:02:45 hello 05:02:48 No logs, I was there, just missed the sentence. 05:02:51 ah 05:02:53 I was just typing out the ampersandy things. :P 05:02:57 * oerjan swats MissPiggy for joining an annoybot -----### 05:03:00 MissPiggy: turn off that bot, thanks. 05:03:02 answer my question. :| 05:03:09 it's supposed to be HELPFUL 05:03:19 That's nice; turn it off. 05:03:40 :( 05:03:44 Does anyone actually have ops here? 05:03:44 coppro: never heard of google? 05:03:45 can't you just learn to love it 05:03:49 no 05:03:59 MissPiggy: :| 05:04:01 but I don't know how to make it leave without making it leave all channels 05:04:02 it might be useful in, say, #math 05:04:13 :))) 05:04:13 yes 05:04:15 that's the point 05:04:16 You're in #esoteric. You should be smart enough to work that out 05:04:36 -!- rocketman has left (?). 05:04:39 c 05:04:44 coppro you are right :O 05:04:47 coppro: fizzie is semi-active and has ops; lament has ops. 05:04:57 neat 05:04:59 Maybe Aardappel still has ops or something. 05:05:11 But they never use their op powers, unless someone just said that they never use them. 05:05:25 I quite like the anarchy here, we're alright at self-organising. 05:05:30 I wish alright didn't flag up as a spelling error. 05:05:55 alright is all ways a spelling error 05:06:02 :-) 05:06:24 well im upset that you guys didn't like my bot 05:06:28 english, the language of consistent inconsistency 05:06:41 I am trying to follow the footsteps of wolfram|alpha 05:06:43 but in IRC form 05:07:08 MissPiggy: people don't like bots that intrude on their usual conversations. is that a problem to understand? 05:07:16 lol 05:07:26 oerjan: WHAT 05:07:54 alise: WHOM 05:07:58 oerjan: WHAT 05:08:20 alise: WHOSOEVER 05:08:20 it's an experiment 05:08:26 oerjan: WHAT 05:08:27 MissPiggy: WHAT 05:08:32 maybe I should have made it oly reply occasionally 05:08:36 then people wouldn't notice it was a bot 05:08:36 MissPiggy: WHAT 05:08:38 MissPiggy: WHAT 05:08:43 what 05:08:49 MissPiggy: WHAT 05:08:59 lol 05:09:03 MissPiggy: WHAT 05:09:05 MissPiggy: Gregor already did that yesterday 05:09:10 i think it was Gregor 05:09:12 oh?? 05:09:13 OERJWHAT 05:09:16 OERJWHAT 05:09:17 was it a google helpful bot? 05:09:19 MISWHAT 05:09:58 no, just a markov bot, except it sometimes replied without being addressed 05:10:38 ALISWAT -----### 05:10:39 oerjan: was it a except it then people wouldn't experiment 05:10:53 grammar fail? 05:11:54 MissPiggy: also, hackego is already google helpful 05:12:03 everything's been done before, you see 05:12:07 :( 05:12:11 hackego: ? 05:12:12 EVERYTHING 05:12:29 `google snugglebunnies 05:12:35 Amazon.com: Snuggle Bunnies (0697123000408): LC Falken, Lisa McCue: Books. ... The illustrations in the Snuggle Bunnies book are so cute and adorable! ... \ www.amazon.com > ... > [13]Children's Books > [14]Animals > [15]Rabbits - [16]Cached - [17]Similar 05:12:37 that's not the same :P 05:12:40 mine just accosts people 05:13:29 Why am I not cooking or eating right now? 05:13:31 "I'll accost your mother." 05:13:39 Sgeo: kitchen is that way -> 05:13:41 Sgeo: woman 05:14:20 This is obviously some strange usage of the word "helpful" that I hadn't previously been aware of. 05:14:25 :D 05:14:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ZwnmJgC-g&feature=dir 05:14:46 squee 05:15:20 oh, hes straight. LAME 05:15:30 augur is so predictable 05:15:45 :P 05:15:53 well look at him! 05:15:55 hes adorable! 05:16:18 http://www.youtube.com/user/charlieissocoollike 05:16:20 look at him. 05:16:21 so adorable. 05:16:25 he'snot adorable :| 05:16:44 * MissPiggy hopes it's not somehow, someone in here 05:16:45 fortress is so cool 05:16:53 makes me wanna sex it. in a platonic way 05:17:20 MissPiggy: its not someone in here. and he TOTALLY is adorable 05:17:24 hes also british 05:17:28 therefore doubly adorable 05:17:38 * Sgeo googles 05:17:52 Sgeo: http://projectfortress.sun.com/ 05:18:06 sun.com still exists/ 05:18:09 o.O 05:18:17 yes, sun.com just redirects to oracle.com 05:18:30 Sgeo: glorious LaTeX-typeset two-dimensional mathematical notation syntax with ASCII equivalent, everything's redefinable more or less, implicit paralellism (!), transactions, decent type-system 05:18:41 designed for high-performance numerical computing, like fortran 05:18:46 but fancy and CS too 05:19:12 god look at him 05:19:14 hes so adorable 05:19:17 * Sgeo needs to go eat 05:19:19 hey i'm british too 05:19:21 :P 05:19:21 augur you are wrong lol 05:19:28 liar 05:19:32 alise: And nicely typeset. 05:19:38 yes, I am that 05:19:47 :) 05:20:06 This is highly unusual... 05:20:26 For the first time in memory, I've actually *needed* to stop studying. 05:20:29 Did somebody ask for ... 05:20:42 Gregor: NOOOOOOOOOOOO 05:20:43 * Gregor taps his foot, waiting for his bot to log in. 05:20:43 -!- virtuLORD has joined. 05:20:44 And when he had done this, and had anointed him king over israel two years continued in their hearts of the person of the covenant, that i may go up, but the virgins that follow him. Of the sons of elnaim, and jethma a moabite, eliel, and obed, and jasiel of masobia. 05:20:50 Not "no longer felt like", not "realise that further study won't help", but "absolutely must *stop*". 05:20:56 cool 05:21:05 Gee, I'm megalagged. 05:21:13 virtuLORD: ping 05:21:13 oerjan: He exhorts to charity, humility and all thy soul. 05:21:18 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:21:36 virtuLORD: Aye. 05:21:39 alise: For with certain new and unheard of devices he hath spoken of by the river's brink. 05:21:41 -!- Gregor has joined. 05:21:55 virtuLORD: MegaHAL? You certainly punctuate well, except from proper nouns. 05:21:55 alise: Except the lord had commanded him, he put in my hand: unless i bring an inheritance to his proper ability: and immediately he came to najoth, in ramatha. 05:22:09 virtuLORD: Sexual intercourse 05:22:11 alise: And the chaldeans that fight against the south, to the twelve tribes, serving night and day, for he is defiled shall eat the fruit of a wise man hateth not the stroke of their heresies. Others have explained these locusts, and of the lord said: thou shalt not pass over thee, till thou know not to death. And the king of egypt, and upon the altar. 05:22:26 THOU SHALT NOT PASS OVER THEE, TILL THOU KNOW NOT TO DEATH 05:22:41 virtuLORD: doom! 05:22:42 oerjan: The statutes of amri, etc. . .The foregoing verse, to ver. 91, Was not healed by him and give him joy. 05:23:00 got i cant watch this kid 05:23:02 its depressing 05:23:06 virtuLORD: Transubstantiation. 05:23:07 pikhq: Son of man, what shall i make thy enemies for they are not to them that are round about it: and he was well favoured, and of idaias; thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation. 05:23:08 * oerjan thought virtuLORD tried to use the words you gave it 05:23:14 ah 05:23:15 augur o_O he's not even attractive 05:23:20 oerjan: It /tries/ 05:23:22 hes ADORABLE 05:23:22 ... I didn't know that word was actually in the Bible. 05:23:22 "thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation." xD 05:23:31 clearly that's from another christian source 05:23:32 wait this must mean that the bible does not _contain_ the word "doom" 05:23:36 "which plainly implies transubstantiation" 05:23:41 augur you don't listen to reason!! 05:23:48 how can this be? 05:23:49 pikhq: aren't you christians meant to know things about the bible :P 05:23:50 I could've sworn the entire doctrine was a Catholic invention. 05:23:56 COMING FROM A GIRL THATS QUITE AMUSING 05:23:56 virtuLORD: catholic 05:23:56 alise: Sion. . .The catholic church; which shall flourish for ever. The unjust shall be no rejoicing nor shouting in the covenant of the lamb. And he broke and distributed to every one from his evil ways. 05:24:07 The bible itself said it. Catholic church = awesome! 05:24:09 lol you did not 05:24:09 pikhq is a Christian? 05:24:15 MIND YOU, THERE'S A COMMA IN THERE 05:24:16 yes 05:24:30 *is Christian, no? 05:24:38 BUT NOT A GERMAN STYLE COMMA 05:24:41 A rather unusual one, but si. 05:24:52 pikhq is indeed a christian 05:24:52 augur: And elias said again to achis king of israel, for a remembrance of a christian. 05:25:02 whats unusual about him is that he believes HE is jesus. 05:25:16 augur: *Hah*. 05:25:21 virtuLORD has a few things that aren't actually in the bible because the version I snagged from project Gutenberg had some commentary I was unwilling to filter. 05:25:22 Though that was my high school nickname... 05:25:26 (the beard and long hair do it) 05:25:33 well does christianity + singularity at the same time 05:25:34 Gregor: That explains it. 05:25:35 which is pretty impressive 05:25:42 alise huh? 05:25:42 the most religion most people can forge out of singularitarianism is pantheism 05:25:45 jesus didnt have long hair, in all likelihood. 05:25:59 i think pikhq said something about the singularity having the spiritual essence of jesus or something 05:26:06 alise: or the belief that god is an AI 05:26:06 Eww, wait, pikhq is religious? We'll have to deal with that at some poitn. 05:26:07 alise: Uh, not I. 05:26:08 *point 05:26:13 pikhq: it was like that but in less silly terms iirc 05:26:16 I just think the singularity is pretty awesome. 05:26:19 Gregor: I know right! 05:26:28 Gregor: Vaguely. 05:26:32 pikhq: so you want to live forever and then die and go to heaven which is awesome? 05:26:33 what does god and AI have to do with anything 05:26:38 it's the 0 at the end of the recurring 9s 05:26:41 alise: Hahahah. 05:26:47 MissPiggy: well since god IS an AI, everything! 05:26:49 virtuLORD: smite! 05:26:49 oerjan: Neither shalt thou smite it. 05:26:55 aww :( 05:26:55 how can jesus be singularity 05:26:55 virtuLORD: We are all heathens! 05:26:57 Gregor: Who made the whole work of the heathens. 05:26:59 this is so confusing guys 05:27:04 Indeed, that is the Lord's province. 05:27:10 -!- virtuLORD has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:27:14 (smiting) 05:27:19 MissPiggy: well dont worry your pretty little head 05:27:22 MissPiggy: well just as the LORD, he is ... dammit 05:27:25 Anyways. 05:27:27 *ask 05:27:41 * oerjan swats muphry -----### 05:27:46 augur: The popular image of Jesus has a beard, brown, long hair, and blue eyes. And is Caucasian. 05:27:57 In other words, the popular image of Jesus is me. 05:27:58 -!- virtuchuck has joined. 05:27:59 Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris invented black. In fact he invented the entire spectrum of visible light. Except pink. Tom cruise invented pink. 05:28:06 pikhq: POPULAR IMAGES ARE IRRELEVANT 05:28:11 lolol 05:28:14 JESUS WAS A JEW 05:28:15 virtuchuck: NO 05:28:15 MissPiggy: Chuck norris uses a night light. Not because chuck norris destroyed the periodic table, because chuck norris 20 minutes to watch 60 minutes. 05:28:20 OY GEVALT 05:28:23 augur: WELL AWARE. 05:28:24 lol 05:28:25 virtuchuck: NO 05:28:25 MissPiggy: Chuck norris played russian roulette with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, 05:28:26 d rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun. 05:28:35 augur: AND THAT'S YIDDISH. DIDN'T EXIST THEN. 05:28:47 "He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun." 05:28:50 O-Chul could kick Chuck Norris's ass 05:28:59 Sgeo: Totally. 05:29:00 erm, I actually said a word like that here, o.O 05:29:05 oh god 05:29:09 that was so funy 05:29:15 pikhq: WHAT, YOU THINK DONT KNOW THIS? WHAT A SCHMUCK 05:29:17 about the protein shake 05:29:24 i'm still laughing 05:29:24 help 05:29:36 augur: YOUR GERMANIC LANGUAGE DOES NOT AMUSE ME. 05:29:50 I'm going to go make food now 05:29:52 O GAIN 05:29:56 .. 05:29:58 oh fine. 05:30:02 pikhq, you're an OOTS fan? 05:30:02 Sgeo are you going to make a protein shake? 05:30:08 Sgeo: Yes. 05:30:13 whats an oots 05:30:20 augur, http://www.giantitp.com 05:30:20 what's this about jesus and singularity please 05:30:22 augur: Order of the Stick 05:30:28 Object Oriented Type System 05:30:29 :P 05:30:35 D&D + stick figures = OOTS. 05:30:36 Sgeo: Gian-Tit-P? 05:30:51 giant in the playground. 05:30:53 Gregor, you're not the first to make that joke. 05:31:04 (gian-tit-p x): returns t if x is a gian tit, or nil otherwise. 05:31:07 MissPiggy: Well, Jesus is claimed by some to be awesome. The singulary is considered awesome by most who know of it. 05:31:08 Actually, maybe you made it before 05:31:16 what singularity is awesome?? 05:31:21 I thought it was like a danger 05:31:23 Y'MUTHA 05:31:28 DANGER DANGER 05:31:29 MissPiggy: no :P 05:31:30 HIGH VOLTAGE 05:31:32 It's freaking technology improving itself. 05:31:33 WHEN WE KISS 05:31:35 What's not to like? 05:31:36 WHEN WE TOUCH 05:31:42 If we don't do friendly AI right.. 05:31:43 an Unfriendly Singularity will be fatal to everything in existence 05:31:47 It's, like, the second coming or something. :P 05:31:51 a Friendly Singularity is pretty much the best thing we could do 05:31:53 tiling the universe with paper clips !!! 05:31:55 (technical terms) 05:32:00 MissPiggy: that's what happens if it's Unfriendl. 05:32:02 *Unfriendly 05:32:11 Read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/ if you have the patience. 05:32:13 God knows I haven't. 05:32:14 hopefully microsoft doesnt invent the first superhuman AI 05:32:16 alise have you read the foobars? 05:32:20 An unfriendly singularity is apocalypse. A friendly singularity is utopia. 05:32:20 prim intellect 05:32:22 Neutral == Unfriendly 05:32:30 Not yet, but fiction is not a guite to reality. 05:32:33 Sgeo: neutral == switzerland 05:32:35 MissPiggy: But honestly, read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/ 05:32:35 onuapfndoafph 05:32:42 therefore switzerland == unfriendly?! 05:32:49 alise yeah I am about 1/5th through 05:32:52 virtuchuck: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? 05:32:52 Gregor: Chuck norris were cloned, then it would be possible for a chuck norris only recognizes the element of surprise. 05:32:54 alise: Prime Intellect had three-laws singularity. 05:32:57 MissPiggy: what, that quickly? 05:33:01 pikhq: yeah i guessed 05:33:05 3 laws or weaker system 05:33:07 pikhq, plus two extra laws IIRC 05:33:09 alise, well I started quite a few months ago... 05:33:12 MissPiggy: right 05:33:16 Sgeo: Oh, right. 05:33:17 Appended onto the first 05:33:36 One was "Do not interpret mind-states to understand them". What was the other? 05:33:36 0th law was hardcoded, and the inventor made his will supercede that of most people, IIRC. 05:33:40 is that still quick? 05:33:44 I don't want to read too quickly 05:33:52 Oh, right. 0th law and "Do not interpret mind-states". 05:34:15 Was that to avoid mindreading or something? 05:34:18 0th law? I know what that means Asimov-wise, but I don't recall it in PI 05:34:29 I thought that was in it. 05:34:32 Hm 05:34:36 alise: Yes. 05:34:39 guys 05:34:40 and not allow it to modify peoples thoughts 05:34:40 * pikhq should pull it up again 05:34:44 im going back to listening to a lecture 05:34:47 entitled 05:34:54 why its difficult for robots to learn word meanings 05:35:02 augur is that free online? 05:35:05 yes 05:35:09 link please ? 05:35:31 5:35; bed soon. 05:35:33 http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/ 05:36:16 pikhq, ""Force Association: Altering the position, composition, or any other characteristic of a human being without its permission shall be a violation of the First Law of severity two." 05:37:35 MissPiggy: not sure i can find it actually 05:37:36 gimme a second 05:37:43 Ah, yes. It was just additional details on the three laws. 05:37:43 augur okay never mind then 05:37:51 aha i think i found it 05:38:01 wait doesn't it metamorphosise the entire universe? 05:38:06 And an attempted third appendium to the first law that failed 05:38:09 surely that counts as changing the composition of a human being 05:38:16 Sgeo: stop spoling, thanks 05:38:17 *spoiling 05:38:20 sorry 05:38:25 alise how come you already know :| 05:38:40 http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/Browse/arizona-public.1477002748.01832962525.2097811649?i=2125659579 05:38:40 augur: 3 Laws or weaker system. 05:38:45 read the wikipedia summary, forgot most of it 05:38:46 virtuchuck: XD 05:38:46 alise: Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris in scrabble, you win. Forever. 05:38:59 Also, are you going to read Fine Structure? 05:39:13 alise: That just changed the nature of matter. ;) 05:39:26 Sgeo: maybe someday. 05:39:28 -!- virtuchuck has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:40:05 I like yudkowski he writes well 05:40:21 Three Worlds Collide? 05:40:41 *yudkowsky 05:40:47 Sgeo: CFAI too probably 05:40:49 alise: It also asked for human opinion on the matter. 05:41:26 I'm pretty sure Yudkowsky would give up his own life for the singularity. 05:42:01 MissPiggy: good? good. 05:42:24 augur thanks hun :) 05:42:45 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:43:48 * Sgeo would give up his own life if it were returned to him via having the state of his brain stored beforehand 05:44:32 If your brain is never resumed, then that is the same as dying. 05:44:37 If it is, then you did not die. 05:44:48 I mean give up your life as in die, no return. 05:44:58 hardcore mode 05:45:02 MissPiggy: the problem that this guy is approaching is quite deep, in some sense 05:45:06 verges on AI 05:45:09 infact, really is AI 05:45:46 * Sgeo isn't even sure that he'd give up his life to save human lives, tbh 05:46:16 its probably incredibly difficult to actually characterize lexical semantics at all 05:46:29 ignoring what aspects seem to actually be non-lexical 05:48:59 Personally I don't care about having a physical body or brain, just a mind. 05:49:45 In fact, I'd consider an uploaded mind as good as what I have if it could emulate a universe just as precise, detailed and good as this one, and better if it could emulate something with more of those qualities; vastly better if it can do that to my own configuration. 05:50:02 what's a mind?? 05:50:36 are minds real? 05:50:43 * Sgeo would love to live in the world of PI 05:50:55 sgeo sicko :P 05:51:02 MissPiggy: the brain is a physical computer that runs a single program, the mind. 05:51:11 Mind, consciousness; call it what you will. 05:51:17 alise: i think the brain runs lots of little programs 05:51:22 The mind is what is important. The brain is just squidgy. 05:51:24 augur: They're subprograms. 05:51:27 like an unkernel. 05:51:28 You get the point, though. 05:51:29 alise I don't really beleive that stuff 05:51:30 MissPiggy, any singularity without some of those social elements must mean that there are needly moral codes enforced 05:51:32 THE MIND IS A SOCIETY 05:51:36 MissPiggy: You don't believe you are conscious? 05:51:40 What, are you not experiencing anything? 05:51:43 not really 05:51:46 This is an entirely scientific hypothesis. 05:51:54 Except for Raven's party 05:51:57 MissPiggy: you are wrong, because p-zombies do not exist and I find it incredibly likely you are intelligent 05:52:14 alise I read about the zombies and I agree with that 05:52:25 you are sentient, conscious, etc. 05:52:36 there is undeniably some experience that we experience; what it "is" we do not know but it exists. 05:52:40 And we have simulated neurons on computers. 05:52:43 MissPiggy: there are no such things as zombies, nor could there be. 05:52:49 That is a mind whose brain is a silicon chip. 05:52:53 Same mind, different brain. 05:53:00 The mind is important, the brain isn't. 05:53:41 but that doesn't make sense if you took my 'program' and wrote it into a computer .. the computer would experience things o_o, so does taht mean everything is concious already 05:54:00 no, YOU would experience things 05:54:06 MissPiggy: no, it only means that SOME things are conscious 05:54:12 consciousness is the byproduct of thought 05:54:12 because you need the right program 05:54:24 a computer running your mind would be executing thought 05:54:32 thus causing a we-don't-know-what-it-is experience called consciousness that is yours 05:54:36 it would be running you. 05:55:01 augur: maybe everything does emit the byproduct of consciousness, but with thoughts on the level of the identity function 05:55:09 I don't think I am conscious because I experience things 05:55:10 we honestly have no idea what it is, after all, but we know that it exists 05:55:11 lol 05:55:32 alise, stop arguing with MissPiggy. this is pointless 05:55:39 lets talk about more awesome things 05:55:46 like graph transduction 05:55:50 :( 05:55:53 MissPiggy appears to be dismissing "you are conscious" by leaving conscious undefined and saying that everything that consciousness is isn't 05:55:54 thanks a lot augur 05:56:00 thus leaving consciousness as a null concept 05:56:13 alise, I know what it means 05:56:27 it's not a null concept 05:57:57 alise, how would you react if a copy of you went into the singularity/computer system/whatever, then 5min later, you were destroyed? 05:58:10 I reject the idea of a copy 05:58:20 Say you made an atom-perfect copy of my brain. 05:58:35 The laws of physics tells us that atoms do not have innate identity; two identical atoms in different places are exactly the same. 05:58:46 Therefore, there is no way for my two brains to result in two different consciousnesses. 05:58:56 alise: the laws of physics tell us nothing of the sort. 05:59:00 that doesn't follow alise 05:59:05 augur shut up you're arguing against me 05:59:09 augur: perhaps I mis-stated it 05:59:23 augur you can't just start agreeing like that 05:59:25 and it is 6am in the morning 05:59:29 alise, then a simulation of those atoms 05:59:30 the best we can say is that if this is true, its irrelevant, since part of identity is location. 05:59:34 but i've heard this argument used convincingly elsewhere by people who know their shit about ai 05:59:40 augur: well, right 05:59:42 well those people are stupid. 05:59:52 augur: so do you think consciousness is separated by being in a different place? 05:59:54 alise do you think of a two level approach one is just physical stuff and the other is souls and spirits and stuff which control the body?? 06:00:00 seems a strange detail for a brain to care about, it's just a computer 06:00:03 alise, go to sleep so you can wake up inn a timely fashion so you can get nice pictures taken 06:00:06 alise, what 06:00:06 MissPiggy: fuck no, monism 06:00:10 that's the normal view of conciousness, and it's the one I am against 06:00:16 MissPiggy: there is no soul there is no spirit world 06:00:18 alise, but then there's divergence as separate sensory data comes in 06:00:22 I don't beleive in that stuff 06:00:30 consciousness is just what happens when something thinks, consciousness IS sufficiently intelligent thought 06:00:31 the other consciousness would also be you. infact, "you" would cease to mean anything without referring to which alise we meant 06:00:38 but they would not be the same consciousness 06:00:42 and I don't think there's some infintesimal point in your brain that is the mind that experiences stuff 06:00:44 you are, we are, literally experiencing our thought directly, because our consciousness is the method by which our thoughts happen; it is our thoughts 06:01:00 augur: so you think that teleporting me to a different location would kill me and leave a copy in my place? 06:01:02 I strongly disagree 06:01:05 MissPiggy: ofcourse there isnt, but its irrelevant. 06:01:11 all the brain cells I had ten years ago are dead now, I'm still me 06:01:16 augur how is it? That is what alise was saying a moment ago no? 06:01:24 our brains try very hard to make us experience continuous consciousness for whatever reason 06:01:26 alise: doesnt matter that you disagree. its wrong. demonstrably so. 06:01:33 I'm confused, I thought you guys were telling me I was wrong now you seem to be saying the same kind of thing 06:01:36 augur: i'm waiting for the demonstration or proof 06:01:49 MissPiggy: we are using different, more accurate terminology than you 06:02:00 you dont have to destroy the original version of you to do it. now you've got two alises, experiencing entirely different things. 06:02:05 alise, well I would like to have better terms too 06:02:25 alise, but I dont' really read a lot of this stuff because it's mostly paranormal/spiritualism 06:02:45 Singularity != Spiritualism 06:02:50 Unless treated by idiots 06:02:51 you can't deny that we are conscious by saying that consciousness is a spiritual concept 06:02:56 monism and consciousness are compatible 06:02:58 thats not to say that theres a deep philosophical difference if the teleportation were talking about is quantum in nature. 06:03:15 anyway, imagine a machine implanted in your brain 06:03:19 ie entanglement sorts of stuff. 06:03:29 every now and then, it makes a perfect computer replica of one neuron in your brain, and replaces that neuron with the computer replica 06:03:38 * Sgeo thinks to how some quacks claim that talk of "observation" proves something spiritual and significant 06:03:39 alise, are you talking to me? 06:03:41 or to MissPiggy? 06:03:42 yes 06:03:45 replacing one neuron in your brain doesn't make you not you any more, correct, augur? 06:03:48 alise this is straight out of lesswrong -_- 06:03:53 MissPiggy: yes it is because it's true 06:03:56 well stop, theres no point in going down that road. i already agree with you on that point. 06:03:59 and it's a good argument which is why it sticks in my mind 06:03:59 okay 06:04:04 I thought you were teling me it 06:04:05 sorry 06:04:07 augur: so you believe that uploading without the cessation of consciousness is possible 06:04:14 ofcourse it is. 06:04:23 then we have no disagreement over anything important. 06:04:25 its the teleportation thing that is at issue, since these are not identical. 06:04:50 alise, where do you get more precicse terms regarding this from?? 06:04:56 what if my computer mind is then uploaded to a computer, and they switch my computer mind off and run the same algorithm on another computer 06:05:03 MissPiggy: uh, you could try wikipedia? 06:05:12 augur: still me? if not, justify that. 06:05:17 same algorithm on the same data, same results 06:05:18 wikipedia is complete bullshit 06:05:22 so probably not 06:05:31 alise: all of them would be you. they'd be different "alise"s form different periods. and they would ofcourse diverge. 06:05:33 MissPiggy: well that's nice, you're an idiot 06:05:48 alise: If not you, then it's close enough so as to make no practical difference. 06:05:52 augur: no no, they shut down my computer brain, snapshot its state, and run the same algorithm on it on another computer 06:05:54 that's transfer 06:05:56 * Sgeo wants to invite people to his Relto 06:05:59 sorry but if you learned this stuff from wiki then no wonder you don't have any of your own thoughts on it 06:06:02 there is no way that can be _different_ 06:06:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:06:11 alise: well sure, but same thing 06:06:13 MissPiggy: i didn't 06:06:24 MissPiggy: i was suggesting it to you. and you can stop being an asshole, or I will stop directing messages to you. 06:06:31 ok theres no other alise to diff from, but thats irrelevant. 06:06:43 augur: so you believe that if that copying happens, I will die? 06:06:48 no 06:06:49 you are the one calling me an idiot 06:06:51 I'm pretty sure I could reductio ad absurdum this, but I won't bother 06:07:00 so it's rich that you are saying I'm the one being an asshole 06:07:09 MissPiggy: blanketing all of wikipedia as complete bullshit is an idiotic statement, simple as 06:07:09 i believe that the consciousness over there is not the consciousness over here, if there is such a thing as consciousness 06:07:15 but thats pretty irrelevant. 06:07:20 augur: then what of my continuous experience? 06:07:26 will that continue, what is your position on that? 06:07:31 continuity is an illusion that your brain plays on itself 06:07:55 the new-computer version will experience continuity 06:08:08 with a sudden change in where it perceives itself to be 06:08:11 I think it really comes down to "What the hell is consciousness" at this point. And it appears to be bordering on semantic games. 06:08:21 augur: I'm referring to my subjective *continuous* experience though 06:08:30 Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.[2] Although humans realize what everyday experiences are, consciousness refuses to be defined -- Useless 06:08:34 what you said says nothing about my continuous experience, only its continuous experience - assuming them to be separate 06:08:45 what 06:08:59 see, all I care about is that my continuous conscious experience continues; and I believe that uploading, copying, teleportation and all the rest achieve this 06:09:14 you know it's not continuous though 06:09:21 -!- gm|lap has joined. 06:09:26 alise, i think the problem is not with your continuous conscious experience 06:09:29 there are gaps (you just don't normally see them) 06:09:35 MissPiggy: of course 06:09:39 but the experience is continuous 06:09:45 if i don't see them i don't experience them 06:09:46 i think the problem is that the word "you" has built into it an assumption about the nature of personhood that isnt correct 06:09:50 thus my experience is continuous 06:09:52 augur: agreed 06:10:30 alise, look I am not trying to derail this with being an asshole or anything but you said you have much more precise termiology than me and I just wanted to know why -- WIkipedia is not precise on these issues so I don't undersatnd why you would recommend it to me -- it's almost like a helpful google bot 06:10:31 imagine we dont turn off your server, and instead take a snapshot and then boot it on another server 06:10:40 so that there are two instances of the Alise image running 06:10:52 (obviously its all in smalltalk, because smalltalk is inherently suited for this sort of thing) 06:10:59 which of them is you? 06:11:15 they certainly wont be experiencing the same things 06:11:40 some sort of unified consciousness in multiple bodies (ignoring the possibility of actually doing this with wifi or whatever) 06:11:53 we wont magically get robotelepathy in this fashion 06:12:04 yeah 06:12:05 but both are you, arguably. just not the same consciousness. 06:12:21 since you are not replying that means I am no longer an idiot? 06:12:22 in the mean-time, I will continue life as ordinary. that does exactly what I want as far as my continuous experience goes until I die 06:12:24 theyre forks of the Alise mind 06:12:28 and I have a lot of years until then 06:12:29 one perhaps a trunk 06:12:34 MissPiggy: I was just reading something else 06:12:46 anyway, I was just dismissing the question because I'm tired 06:12:52 what question? 06:12:54 alise, sure, except the physical you will be different than the roboyou's 06:12:56 that wasn't a question :| 06:12:59 MissPiggy: where to find terms 06:13:01 now I really must sleep, if I want to continue my conscious experience I must not die 06:13:06 not sleeping for too long is dangerous to my health 06:13:09 health risks can lead to death 06:13:10 so 06:13:11 sleep 06:13:13 see you next week alise 06:13:15 no 06:13:18 sunday exists, sir 06:13:18 and even if the physical you was copied at the moment of death, it would still be a different version of you 06:13:20 one Alise died 06:13:23 oh right, it's saturday! 06:13:24 and another lived 06:13:25 yay 06:13:27 no it's sunday it's 6am 06:13:27 alise oh right, so you DISMISS ME by linking to wikipedia, then I say "this is bulshit' because it IS, and then you go off on how I am an idiot ??? 06:13:35 it's saturday here 06:13:37 how's the passport coming btw 06:13:40 MissPiggy: ok, remind me not to talk to you when tired 06:13:42 alise for fucks sake.. you should have just told me you don't have a reference 06:13:48 coppro: no progress so far. photos on sunday prolly 06:13:55 MissPiggy: you do realise that people don't think properly when tired? 06:14:01 anyway, feel free to raise a shitstorm, I'll be sleeping 06:14:06 alise, yeah okay I'm sorry I got angry about it 06:14:12 sorry for dismissing you 06:14:20 happy families! now really, sleep -> 06:14:21 alise, I just felt a bit upset when you said I was an idiot because I was trying really hard not to be 06:14:32 sorry. just hard to do two convos at once while sleepy :P 06:14:36 anyway I said -> that means i'm gone 06:14:37 okay nn 06:14:40 it is physically impossible to ping me! 06:16:10 I wonder if I could PROVE that nobody is conscious 06:16:45 MissPiggy: no. all you'd prove is that your definition of consciousness is wrong. 06:17:18 augur, what if I started with the right definition? 06:17:51 if you started with the right definition, you would only prove that unconscious people are not conscious. 06:18:14 you are very sure :) 06:18:25 I will have to produce a VERY good proof... 06:18:27 thats because consciousness is whatever it is that people are doing :) 06:18:49 is a slug conscious? 06:18:50 you'll have to prove that people just ARENT, to prove that people arent CONSCIOUS. 06:18:56 who knows. 06:19:14 I think little insects are basically automatons 06:19:20 they just wiggle and so on 06:19:36 people are automatons too. theyre just big ones. 06:19:41 that doesnt mean they're not conscious :) 06:19:43 yeah exactly 06:19:45 oh ? 06:19:48 it just means you dont know what consciousness is! 06:19:49 but I thought it does 06:19:56 I do know what it is :( 06:20:02 obviously not :) 06:20:17 i can sum up my views on this matter: i agree with dennett. 06:20:21 If I try to prove that consciousness doesn't exist, that means that *I* am one of the only people in the world who doesn't have it? 06:20:33 can you give me dennett to read? 06:20:42 I don't know anything about him 06:21:16 yes 06:21:17 give me a second 06:24:06 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0wetQwH9nY 06:24:26 watch all three parts 06:24:30 why can't I just say outrageous stuff like "wikipedia is bullshit" by the way? 06:24:44 thanks augur 06:24:45 you can 06:24:48 and people can say stuff back 06:25:20 yeah but they get mad 06:25:25 it's no good 06:26:21 tough shit :P 06:26:23 people get mad 06:26:25 big deal. 06:26:35 if this were #antiwiki people would be happy. 06:26:35 I will try harder not to be so extravagant then 06:26:49 that's not a real chan :( 06:27:44 alise is 14 06:27:47 if this were a real chan 06:27:51 we'd be asking for nudes. 06:28:58 antiwiki is not a real chan :P 06:29:11 and? 06:29:21 boooooopfadpfad 06:29:26 I have a sore tummy 06:29:48 you're pregnant. 06:31:15 I wonder if I might be a skeptic but I just don't want to admit it 06:32:48 he said 'cogito ergo sum' is wrong!! 06:33:09 and it is 06:33:13 :O 06:33:19 I thuoght it was true 06:33:26 y'mutha 06:33:31 :( 06:36:58 si! abbiamo un anima! ma è fatta di tanti piccoli robot! 06:36:59 :D 06:37:17 this is fucking ridiculous augur!!!!!!!!! 06:37:30 everything he is saying is what I agree with and was saying earlier 06:37:31 what? 06:37:45 haha 06:38:02 how come all you guys are disagreeing with me but actually think the same thing 06:38:42 because you dont know how to think about these things! 06:39:11 :S how do you mean? 06:39:44 what do you MEAN what do i mean! 06:40:03 you said I don't know how to think about these things, so what do I need to learn 06:41:24 * MissPiggy bites augur 06:41:28 oi 06:41:29 stop that 06:45:16 well? 06:46:33 i dont know 06:46:40 huff 06:46:42 i think about thinking 06:46:47 i dont think about thinking about thinking 06:46:51 im not a metametathinker! 06:47:38 lol 06:47:47 oh yeah 06:47:56 that reminds me, I still think metameta- = meta- 06:48:02 but someone here said it's not 06:49:35 decidedly not true. 06:49:45 acn you hepl me understand why 06:49:48 sure 06:50:00 meta-thinking is arguably what philosophers of thought do, right? 06:50:09 er, philosophers of mind 06:50:15 they think about thought, and what minds are like 06:50:17 I suppose 06:50:29 that doesnt mean that they think about how to think about minds 06:50:44 * coppro wants to step in with an analogy, but will let augur finish 06:50:45 ie they dont NECESSARILY say, "how should i approach this task" 06:51:04 they might just conjecture about the nature of mind, without even asking how to approach it 06:51:16 meta-meta-thinking is then thinking about how to think about how we think 06:51:33 similarly, meta-meta-meta-thinking is thinking about how to go about thinking about how to think about how we think 06:51:40 that's silly :P 06:51:44 perhaps! 06:51:46 but its true 06:51:48 my turn! 06:51:57 thinking about thinking is not thinking about thinking about thinking. 06:51:58 obviously. 06:52:02 coppro: GO GO GO 06:53:16 In most programming language, manipulating types would probably be one level of meta-, because normally one manipulates objects in the course of programming. Hence, in a language with types you can manipulate, types are metaobjects. If types themselves have types (metatypes?), and those could be manipulated, they would be metametaobjects 06:53:29 it's like multiple integration, except more conceptually 06:54:00 metaprogramming = programming 06:54:18 But once removed from the normal level 06:54:34 likewise, metathinking is thinking; it's just that it's about thinking 06:55:10 f(x) and \int F(x) dx are both functions, but they are not the same 06:55:14 s/F/f/ 06:55:43 metaprogramming is programming yes 06:55:57 but its programming programs that make programs 06:55:59 hence its meta 06:56:11 meta-X is a kind of X that does X 06:56:14 thats what meta means 06:56:31 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 07:00:43 Bevin! 07:00:52 Bespin! 07:02:04 Hm. "Bevin" is not as Googlable as I had hoped 07:05:31 `google bevin 07:05:40 Ernest Bevin (9 March 1881 14 April 1951) was a British Labour politician, best known for his time as Minister of Labour in the war-time coalition ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bevin - [13]Cached - [14]Similar 07:07:23 i take it he was responsible for the "sweat" part of those blood, sweat and tears 07:09:34 `google Bevin Uru 07:09:35 Jump to [13]Bevin: bevin In the centre of the Plaza is a fountain. Turn about and climb up to the balcony overlooking the inland sea. ... \ [14]Preparing the Way - [15]Relto - [16]Bevin - [17]Ferry Terminal 07:11:09 * oerjan has no idea what Sgeo is trying to find 07:14:17 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 07:14:54 Bevin == Neighborhood 07:15:23 erm, perhaps not 07:15:47 `google Bevin Neighborhood 07:15:48 Aug 8, 2007 ... I am not sure I believe that, but it does suggest we should not call all neighborhoods "Bevin". I must admit, I had fallen into the Bevin/neighborhood ... \ forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?t=2018 - [13]Cached 07:16:01 "Bevin does not mean neighborhood." 07:16:38 in what language? 07:17:23 D'ni 07:17:40 Or, that might actually be a race 07:17:49 Not sure if there's a particular name for the language 07:17:56 oh so that google hit was actually relevant... 07:18:55 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/D'ni 07:23:18 * Sgeo is rish years old 07:25:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:25:13 -!- augur_ has joined. 07:29:36 my fucking internet 07:29:42 is so goddamned slpw right now 07:29:44 i dont know why :( 07:30:08 * Sgeo should be preparing to go to sleep right now 07:30:18 augur_: microwave sloths 07:30:32 they're crawling inside the wires 07:31:53 io0p-;[']u7ijk98uiolp;['] 07:31:54 \9890-]\ 07:31:56 "?90-=]iolp[;' 07:32:02 whoops 07:32:07 no no its not microwave issues 07:32:12 connectivity is fine 07:35:45 Horribly Tasteless Wikipedia humor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_file_systems&oldid=220529437#Features 07:36:08 ? 07:36:32 Sgeo: hahaha 07:36:54 oh 07:36:58 there it is 07:37:20 HAHA 07:37:27 tr/A-Z/a-z/ 07:39:09 that one needs a new section: "Performance", with a "No" under FAT and NTFS :P 07:39:23 :P 07:39:47 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 07:40:18 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest99794. 07:40:35 Something is wrong when your VM performs faster than your native applications 07:40:43 doing the same stuff 07:40:49 -!- Guest99794 has changed nick to augur_. 07:42:10 -!- augur_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:43:55 If I put an image on imgur, will other people see it? 07:46:26 * Sgeo hopes not 07:52:36 Who runs .exes on webservers? 07:57:57 Gregor runs arbitrary binaries on his wiki. 07:59:42 Windows binaries? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:25 Although if Hackiki supports Mono, I guess his wiki could end up using .exes 08:00:41 * Sgeo now knows what it's like for someone to excessively IM him 08:00:48 I used to be an excessive IMer 08:02:39 Sgeo: doit 08:02:54 Wha? 08:03:13 `translatefromto fr en doit 08:03:15 must 08:04:20 coppro, whayouwametodo, unlessyoumeanmust,inwhichcasewhatsthemustfor? 08:04:35 Sgeo: do it 08:04:40 dowhat? 08:04:52 put Mono on Hackiki Prime 08:04:57 Ahlol 08:05:05 Nanowneesleep 08:05:47 * Sgeo isn't even sure how to go about doing such a thing 08:05:52 easy 08:05:53 enlispelingetsworsanwors 08:05:58 put the entire Mono framework on Hackiki 08:06:02 Put a .exe on it 08:06:04 have fun! 08:07:06 How do I shot Hackiki? 08:11:52 Gnight 08:28:45 -!- augur_ has joined. 08:50:45 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop.). 09:01:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:03:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:21:20 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:21:45 -!- augur_ has joined. 09:37:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 09:45:30 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:01:47 alise: okay the ;'s are gone, my number one error is using , instead of it :D 10:02:18 (the thing doesn't fail well yet) 10:24:35 -!- tombom has joined. 10:39:35 -!- Pthing has joined. 11:08:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:40:53 -!- tombom_ has joined. 11:42:48 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:45:28 -!- tcsavage has joined. 12:03:59 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:10:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:15:25 alise: doing ski now, i wrote the thing in thue in the time it's taken me to differentiate between different sorts of inputs :D 12:21:49 also i just killed hundreds of children 12:23:26 so, how fucking fast do fruit flies reproduce? 12:24:36 i've been vacuuming their whole visible population about 3 times a day for like 3 days now, and the only noticeable difference really is that there are now more kids than adults 12:25:14 i assume the vacuum cleaner kills them because i've never seen anyone get outta there 12:27:04 once left it next to the computer for hours just to see if someone comes out 12:27:49 no idea why it would kill them though, they are very hard to kill with impact, and i assume that's the only thing the vacuum cleaner does to them 12:28:21 easy to kill by squashing ofc 12:41:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:44:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:52:22 -!- tcsavage_ has joined. 12:54:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:54:48 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:55:12 -!- augur_ has joined. 12:55:21 -!- tcsavage has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:14:11 alise is 14 13:14:12 if this were a real chan 13:14:12 we'd be asking for nudes. 13:14:12 lol 13:15:48 but I'm 14 13:19:01 -!- tcsavage_ has left (?). 13:23:13 i'm even older than that 13:30:53 http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic 13:31:59 Wareya: i wish to kill you 13:32:12 why' 13:32:20 http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic 13:32:25 oh 13:32:30 right 13:32:33 I didn't make that 13:32:37 I just feel really sorry for the guy 13:33:14 sure he isn't trolling you 13:33:20 yes 13:33:22 I've met him 13:33:41 I humbly suggest euthanasia. 13:33:48 I mean 13:34:01 I knew him off the internet and saw him posting under that account 13:34:13 he's really autistic 13:34:15 :( 13:34:20 that much is obvious 13:34:27 yeah 13:34:42 zzo38's autistic too, but he's just crazy, not ... dunno how to put it, hopelessly naive? :P 13:34:55 hahaha 13:34:59 you know 13:35:17 my school considered testing me for aspergers but decided it was easier to say I had an emotional disorder 13:35:23 actually I'm often surprised by the navety of other people... 13:35:43 really? 13:35:46 yes 13:35:51 I thought that naivety was something that like 13:35:53 everyone had 13:35:53 etc. 13:35:57 well yes 13:36:04 but I see it a lot in other people 13:36:22 Wareya: lol I've experienced my own bullshit with aspergers (as you probably know; god knows everyone in this channel does) 13:36:24 like I'm naive to new ideas that aren't directly logic related 13:36:33 haha 13:36:44 yeah, this hell totally is haha :P 13:36:45 oh, I mean nave as in real-world situations 13:36:52 oh 13:37:06 yeah I'm dead for most shit in real life 13:37:39 anyway 13:37:46 How should I start coding an interpreter for Boat? 13:38:40 well it's imperative, so naturally I'd use Haskell 13:38:41 I have a lot of time lately (vacation) and I'd hte to waste it playing half-life etc. 13:38:49 well 13:38:55 all I know is C, GML and Python 13:38:57 it isn't wasted if you enjoyed it 13:38:58 and GML is out the window 13:39:03 well 13:39:03 first, learn haskell 13:39:07 I'm like, never sad 13:39:18 since my childhood was so sad haha 13:39:23 presumably you experience fun playing half-life otherwise you wouldn't want to do it 13:39:33 but I also get fun out of programming 13:39:34 so 13:39:47 it's not like anyone will use the interp though :P 13:39:52 true 13:40:00 anyway don't do it in C, Python isn't a good language but at least you don't have to manage memory. 13:40:09 I love managing memory 13:40:23 then you love busywork, not real programming work 13:40:26 and python is only bad in the syntax and how it handles low level objects 13:40:34 no, it's bad all the way through 13:40:35 anyway 13:40:35 Oh, I meant the real basic stuff 13:40:41 since you have multiple bracketing statements, write a parser of course 13:40:44 @memory management 13:40:50 you have infix operations, how do they associate? 13:40:52 Do they? 13:40:58 huh?\ 13:41:12 n==nequality test -- returns the xnor of two values (if you need booblean, use casting) 13:41:12 n!=ninequality test -- returns the xnand of two values 13:41:12 n|n"or" -- note: || in C is its | with a boolean restriction 13:41:12 n&n"and" -- note: && in C is its & with a boolean restriction 13:41:12 n!|n"nor" 13:41:13 n!&n"nand" 13:41:16 what does this mean: 13:41:25 x|y!=z!&r==n&p 13:41:31 left to right 13:41:42 that's easy then 13:41:46 you know how to write a parser right? 13:41:51 Nope! :D 13:42:04 ok well the obvious option is to use a library but that's boring innit 13:42:12 I assume you don't really care about helpful syntax errors 13:42:23 the more lenient a language is the better 13:42:32 which is why I can't write python 13:42:45 Python is lenient... 13:42:50 not the syntax 13:42:53 True. 13:43:14 Past a certain point, bondage becomes freedom, paradoxically enough; Haskell, for instance, is one of the most expressive languages I've used. 13:43:21 But Python doesn't really hit that. 13:43:26 Fine, I'll show you how I'd structure this parser in C. 13:43:48 like purely structural languages versus ones that only have goto 13:44:25 Right. 13:46:48 Wareya: actually, since you have complex expressions *and* infix operators, a parser library is probably your best bet 13:47:04 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:47:28 or I could be hardcore and process all the nesting manually like I planned to 13:47:34 becaues 1) That would teach me more 13:47:46 2) I wouldn't need to deal with a library 13:47:53 yacc isn't a library 13:48:00 you write a .y file and it spits out a c file 13:48:10 -!- augur_ has joined. 13:48:12 and 3) I wouldn't need to deal with a preprocessor 13:48:15 oh hey 13:48:15 70s technology, the people who invented C used it y'know 13:48:34 Wareya: re recursive descent - yeah except I'm good at shit like this and now how to write parsers, 13:48:54 and I don't 13:48:54 and when I realised you had left-associative infix operators with complex left-hand-side expressions with many types of nesting, plus 2d flow, 13:49:02 I started crying and closed the window. 13:49:07 Wareya: also, you CANNOT parse this language 13:49:10 it has two dimensional flow 13:49:14 well, you can 13:49:24 but you have to store N where N is a very large number parses for every single block 13:49:32 and it would be near-impossible to coordinate 13:49:32 actually hang on 13:49:42 it needs to parse actively 13:49:46 same reason the only way you can parse befunge is loading it into a 2d char array 13:49:53 Wareya: right. you're out of your league. 13:50:00 Heh 13:50:08 what a syntax for such trivial semantics :P 13:50:32 I wrote a Chip-8 -> brainfuck converter 13:50:43 I think I could at least get SOMEWHERE with this 13:51:04 maybe if I wrote it in a language that was really good at dealing with fucked up structure 13:51:12 good luck I wash my hands of this 13:51:24 also, haskell is really good for multiple angles of the same data and handling complex structures like this simply 13:51:25 just sayin' 13:51:34 I have functional languages 13:51:37 hate* 13:51:49 oh. so you're an idiot, then 13:51:54 Both of my parents programmed in C and PHP 13:52:09 PHP in your genes? well that would explain it 13:52:10 and I wrote shell scripts when I was 3 13:52:16 I hate PHP too, though 13:52:20 which is ironic 13:52:22 what functional languages have you used 13:52:45 erlang, haskell, AGTs 13:52:50 SGTS* 13:52:51 ;sdlfjasd 13:52:54 AGTS* 13:52:56 how seriously did you use haskell? 13:52:59 yes 13:53:05 er 13:53:35 misread that. I didn't use it that eriously, but I jumped in the shallow end and tried to mess with it for a couple weeks 13:53:54 Well, obviously you hate them because they're different to what you're so used to. 13:53:58 That's not a very healthy attitude to take, though. 13:54:03 heh 13:54:07 You should always try to push your programming language boundaries. 13:54:26 have you used GML? Its object manipulation is worse than C++ 13:54:35 Personally I may consider several paradigms worthwhile and not be sure which, but I know for sure that whichever has the nicest properties is certainly not imperative. 13:54:42 Imperative couldn't be more dead to me. 13:54:44 I can't really get accustomed to a functional language after mastering that 13:55:11 it's much more peaceful after you do ;) 13:55:16 hahaha 13:55:36 maybe I should try to do it in FreeBASIC 13:55:46 just to be an asshole to people who hate basic 13:55:46 not for me though because i constantly see everything that's shit about my computer 13:56:07 wrong architecture. wrong language. wrong structure of OS. wrong interface. wrong software. blah blah blah 13:56:17 I hate x86 13:56:39 I hate how windows XP ties everything to the OS 13:56:52 tec. 13:56:53 etc. 13:57:00 you hate x86 but for presumably all the wrong reasons 13:57:06 I would vastly prefer a graph-reduction architecture 13:57:10 like the Reduceron 13:57:11 there's WAY TOO MUCH 13:57:26 at least you know that simplicity is a virtue, but simplicity does not mean low-level, of course. 13:57:30 hell, I work with mips all the time, and even it's over the top 13:57:36 of course 13:57:43 that's why I was able to deal with chip-8 13:57:45 the Reduceron is a high-level symbolic computer (like computer algebra systems)... on an fpga 13:57:51 no imperative instructions in sight 13:58:58 http://devernay.free.fr/hacks/chip8/C8TECH10.HTM#3.1 13:59:08 the only imperitive stuff there deals with the 8 or so registers 13:59:27 16 14:00:07 SYS is imperative. CLR is. RET, JP, CALL. You could make an argument for SE/SNE/SE being denotational. LD, ADD. OR and AND too, for they mutate the registers. I won't go on; this is imperative in its entirety. 14:00:47 oh I'm sorry 14:01:03 Functional *means* functional. :P 14:01:07 I was assuming that pardagrim inclusion wasn't tenary 14:01:09 :) 14:01:25 Are you sure what you said makes sense? 14:01:29 Yes. 14:01:42 i disagree 14:02:05 I was assuming that something being one of a pardagrim wasn't a JUSDT yes, no, or unrelated thing. 14:02:08 JUST* 14:02:31 Well, I saw not a single instruction that could be described as declarative apart from - maybe - SE/SNE/SE; even then they read mutable state. 14:02:48 "Functional" as a paradigm means little; only purely functional has the required properties that make it worthwhile. 14:03:15 Reasoning about programs, safety, segregating non-functional code into boxes, large optimisation potential, ... 14:03:26 ...wat 14:04:37 I'm sorry but that made no sense to me 14:04:38 Well, if imperative code is all you know I'm not surprised you don't understand... it's pretty much the lowest common denominator as far as advanced topics like that go - and I mean to cause no offence, I am referring to the entire world that it comprises 14:05:17 I couldn't really explain most of them without several pages... by that point, it'd probably be easier for you to actually learn a functional language than to follow the tangled web of words. 14:05:25 haha 14:05:49 I guess that the way that I'm spergin' makes me thing of everything as a test and set 14:06:22 because I was thinking that way before I know very much about computers 14:06:25 Everything is a graph rewriting. 14:06:35 Even imperative code can be modelled this way, and efficiently, too. 14:07:07 you can boil anything down to one operator following a 3D trail 14:07:13 It certainly transcends such petty blimps in history as how our computers work; it's pretty much pure mathematics, and mathematics has to be the oldest non-physical discipline there is. 14:07:14 and you can build that back up into anything else 14:07:32 And the power, safety, purity and optimisation you get when you layer a good type system on top... 14:07:48 european pre-calculus math is retarded 14:07:51 are you people saying two things can be equal in their computational ability even though they are different?!? 14:08:00 in my very non-humble opinion 14:08:05 pre-calculus is retarded everywhere 14:08:15 post algebra, pre calculus 14:08:20 is fucking stupid 14:08:28 Hell, calculus isn't even european 14:08:39 so I'm fully justified in saying that all european math is dipshit 14:08:48 "let's take a sneak peek at what you'll do with this stuff once you have any idea what it means" 14:08:57 Does Chaitlin count? 14:09:03 Erdos? 14:09:09 (Why didn't I think of Erdos first? Disturbing.) 14:09:18 current version of ski takes over a minute to compile 14:09:37 alise, are they post-1850? 14:09:48 Oh my god, you don't know who Paul Erdos is. 14:09:56 since I suck at european history past rome 14:10:11 I think you just became the most idiotic person I ever met, to claim that European mathematics is bullshit one sentence then express ignorance at who Paul Erdos is in the next. 14:10:19 I'm sorry, but 14:10:20 since I suck at european history past rome 14:10:23 I don't know 14:10:38 Then saying anything about European mathematics makes you a fool. 14:10:53 I'm also 14 in one of the most facist state education systems in america 14:11:01 so shun me 14:11:29 It is one thing not to know, it is another entirely to make a blanket statement about something that you do not know. 14:11:36 alise 14:11:54 If you have the self-awareness to know that you are in a crappy educational system (pretty much all of them), you have the intellect, and thus the intellectual responsibility, not to do things like that. 14:11:56 I have been trained to call everything post-1850 in the western hemisphere american 14:12:30 You could only get away with "it's the SYSTEM! blame the SYSTEM!" if you weren't clearly intelligent enough to realise what bullshit such things are. 14:12:50 Also, Georg Cantor? 14:12:58 I know that I'm uneducated in history 14:12:59 1870. Maybe he's not sufficiently Unamerican for you. 14:13:03 haha 14:13:05 *un-Ameircan 14:13:06 *American 14:13:07 ffs 14:13:13 (un-American, that is) 14:13:35 russia and germany 14:13:43 you know 14:13:51 maybe I should be saying western instead of european 14:14:05 then again I suck at making good english so fuck that 14:14:28 i totally be make an fun english 14:14:34 haha 14:14:42 Anyway, fact is, if you know that you do not know much about the history of European mathematics, because you know that you do not know about European history post-Roman times, then it is intellectually dishonest to make more than trivial statements about European mathematics; a blanket statement is simply ridiculous. 14:15:01 But America is all about blanket systems! 14:15:05 You don't need to know anything to make that train of deduction except what you self-admittedly know; that you are ignorant of European history. 14:15:07 i think you're both wrong 14:15:15 p and not p! 14:15:20 us q! 14:15:23 is* 14:15:34 ah, the famous P ?= NP problem 14:16:00 p&!(p) 14:16:10 =0 14:16:22 OF COURSE IT'S UNRELATED 14:16:47 I don't care how cliche it is, because it's relevant: 14:16:50 "Never let your schooling interfere with your education." --probably not Mark Twain 14:17:15 That's what I said until I realized that I didn't reach out enough out side of school to learn things 14:17:29 if you weren't being so pretensious I would probably be listening to you, though 14:17:37 Yes I suck at spelling 14:17:37 You're on a computer connected to the internet; it presumably has a web browser. So... what are you waiting for? 14:17:46 BUT HALF-LIFE 14:17:52 oh, the American anti-intellectual attitude really has sunk into your brain 14:17:56 no 14:17:58 big words are pretentious elitism 14:17:59 I'm pro-intellectual 14:18:04 h 14:18:06 insults are 14:18:14 i am not insulting you. 14:18:21 reads like it 14:18:31 just sayin' 14:18:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:18:39 She's an asshole in general: don't read into it too much 14:18:48 I figured such. 14:19:05 That I am, but in this case I was not being an asshole to you, only certain parts or actions of you. 14:19:22 but parts make up the whole 14:19:33 So is criticising someone's mathematical proof an insult? 14:19:38 nope 14:20:01 you're criticising the parts of me that I've never really cared about being different 14:20:04 it can be! 14:20:05 so of course I feel offended 14:20:10 hahaha 14:20:56 Also, my full-blown proofs with columns and everything aren't ever argued with because I go into detail showing how I tried proving each part wrong to no avail 14:21:30 Proof by contradiction, damn you some kinda mathematical genius. 14:21:33 Can't argue with one of them. 14:21:42 hahaha 14:21:43 Not as if they can be flawed or anything 14:22:02 you can divide by zero 14:22:06 sometimes 14:22:51 what 14:23:09 y=x/0; 0y=x; x=0; y=0/0; 14:23:12 what you just said about proofs does sound like you've been doing some serious precalculus 14:23:22 I do some serious algebra 14:23:23 oh and that too 14:23:38 good, that should unmelt it 14:23:49 Elementary algebra, presumably 14:23:55 no, high school algebra 14:23:59 :D 14:24:02 Yes, that's elementary algebra. 14:24:06 >_, 14:24:06 Ah 14:24:07 *>_< 14:24:17 See, I'm actually IN high schoo 14:24:18 l 14:24:27 so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like 14:24:33 apples=oranges-2 14:24:50 Someone talk to em so I don't have to. 14:24:51 I'm not calling it elementary, that's just what it's called :-P 14:24:56 lol 14:25:02 To contrast with abstract algebra 14:25:05 yeah, "elementary" algebra 14:25:27 oh elementary algebra 14:25:29 Are you trying to express the notion that elementary algebra is difficult? 14:25:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra -- Wikipedia agrees with me so I must be right 14:25:33 that has nothing to do with algebra 14:25:36 no? 14:25:44 oklopol: Sure it does 14:25:44 it's just tree rewriting 14:25:46 Then why "yeah, 'elementary' algebra"? 14:25:55 09:23 < Wareya> See, I'm actually IN high schoo 14:25:56 09:24 < Wareya> so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like 14:25:56 Deewiant: oh? 14:25:56 09:24 < Wareya> apples=oranges-2 14:26:07 Wareya: No, that isn't an answer; it doesn't make any sense. 14:26:13 you're funny 14:26:15 makes sense to me 14:26:21 "How is calling it elementary strange from your perspective?" is the question. 14:26:21 oh wait of course it does 14:26:27 You are saying things but they don't seem to express any sort of coherent idea. 14:26:28 uh 14:26:33 elementary school 14:26:38 oklopol: It's just the most basic concepts, restricted to an easy-to-understand set 14:26:41 grade school 14:26:54 Wareya: So, what, do you not know what the word "elementary" means? 14:26:58 yes 14:27:00 basic 14:27:09 though it means more than that 14:27:14 it pretty much means basic 14:27:20 Well, it is basic algebra. 14:27:23 So how is that strange at all? 14:27:24 Deewiant: so like group axioms and shit? 14:27:35 you can't get more basic than that in algebra 14:27:38 oklopol: No, like equations and variables and shit :-P 14:27:51 becuase americans think of elementary as grade school 14:27:52 period 14:27:57 at least in massachusetts 14:28:13 variables are logic, not algebra, imo; algebra is about having operations and things, and rules for how the operations should work 14:28:27 Yes, they are logic, but they're used in algebra 14:28:29 algebra is the manipulation of equations that contain variables 14:28:31 equations is, maybe, closer to algebra 14:28:40 functional variables I mean 14:28:59 I would highly expect that Massachusetts has one of the better educational systems in America. 14:29:00 The set of things that you do in elementary algebra are a subset of the things you do in abstract algebra 14:29:02 well dunno really, to me they just don't seem to have any sort of real connection 14:29:09 Alise, I'm on the new york border 14:29:15 For one, it's probably the most liberal state; and, well, all dem universities. 14:29:27 1) Taxachusetts 14:29:42 2) The Berkshires suck at middle and high school 14:29:50 3) I'm 14 14:29:57 EFFORTS TO tamp down antitax sentiment in Massachusetts got an unexpected boost last week: the small-government advocates at the National Tax Foundation in Washington, D.C., issued a report showing that the state's tax burden has dropped a few notches this year. The epithet "Taxachusetts" has been difficult to shake, but the foundation report ranks the state 23d out of 50 for the bite state and local taxes take out of a resident's paycheck. That's just abou 14:29:57 t the middle by anyone's calculation. 14:30:01 that took like five seconds to google up 14:30:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield 14:30:13 you can't criticise left-wing policy by prefixing words with tax- 14:30:22 left wing policy is great 14:30:31 yes, you're 14, but I would presume some of the intellectualismamism from the unis would spill out 14:30:34 it's not about equations, it's about systems with objects and functions that map objects to other objects 14:30:36 but I'm so poor that I'm obliged to laugh at taxes 14:30:51 and you try to characterize what these systems look like, given some constraints on the operations 14:30:52 if they're balanced out by relevant social services then it's irrelevant 14:30:52 AGAIN 14:30:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield 14:31:29 what you do in high school is you have a vague understanding of the real line, and you have one set of rules you need to learn to apply 14:31:51 i guess that does make it sound like they have a connection 14:32:48 Deewiant: yeah okay maybe, but you only train the part that doesn't require any sort of thinking or understanding. 14:33:28 Well, arguably you can do abstract algebra without any understanding as well 14:33:30 you could replace it by a class where you memorize axioms for different algebraic systems, although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing 14:33:46 Anyway 14:33:56 In practice you can't because there are too many rules and it's not as easy to recognize when to use which one 14:34:07 the upper ends of my school are trying to get rid of all he autistic kids by failing them 14:34:08 "although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing" 14:34:13 GUESS WHO THAT INCLUDES 14:34:20 you're being too snappy about education lately. stop it or i'll be forced to quote you 14:34:32 Wareya: you're not autistic. 14:34:38 They think I am 14:34:52 And no, I don't group aspergers with autism 14:35:17 to put it a way, one is a software issue, the other is a hardware issue 14:35:39 umm 14:35:51 that is the worst explanation of the difference i have ever heard 14:35:56 yes it is 14:35:57 indeed. 14:35:59 I think if you actually have asperger's it's very much a hardware issue 14:36:07 Well 14:36:07 also, asperger's isn't real in like 90% of cases 14:36:12 Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever 14:36:21 aspergers is often psychological 14:36:22 Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that. 14:36:35 Well, I don't know about that 14:36:39 yes 14:36:50 Well, I know of at least one case... (me) 14:36:52 I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me" 14:37:01 haha 14:37:04 it's the internet 14:37:15 also: 14:37:15 One case does not a "most people" make 14:37:17 09:36 < alise> Well, I know of at least one case... (me) 14:37:17 09:36 < Deewiant> I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me" 14:37:20 epic timing 14:37:29 I just said I wasn't Asperger's, you fool. 14:37:37 alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed 14:37:41 Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever 14:37:41 Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that. 14:37:41 Well, I don't know about that 14:37:43 lol 14:37:43 Well, I know of at least one case... (me) 14:37:46 09:37 < oklopol> alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed 14:37:47 it has absolutely no use to anyone 14:37:54 hilarious 14:37:58 I would agree if it weren't for grade school 14:38:05 Pthing: what, exactly, is hilarious? :p 14:38:11 oklopol: Most people can't be dropped to university without any knowledge of the pre-university stuff 14:38:11 oklopol! 14:38:19 is that better? 14:38:25 Deewiant: intelligent people educate themselves 14:38:34 Deewiant: what alise said 14:38:34 well, so do dumb people, they just need constant poking in some direction to do it. 14:38:38 alise: Not necessarily 14:38:43 almost always 14:38:46 Many grow into intelligence 14:38:54 Deewiant: Name one? 14:39:13 I didn't enjoy school, for the most part, until I was maybe 12 years old 14:39:15 alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch 14:39:19 I still learned the stuff, of course 14:39:23 Deewiant: That is completely unrelated to education. 14:39:26 Or intelligence. 14:39:33 09:38 < alise> Deewiant: Name one? 14:39:34 09:38 < Wareya> alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch 14:39:34 Of course it's related to education 14:39:40 Name someone who grew into intelligence, not someone who grew into liking education. 14:39:41 anyway there are just numbers and lists, so i'm not sure a separator between list elements makes much sense 14:39:52 State education, at that, which isn't really much education. Maybe it's better in Finland. 14:40:06 oklopol: yeah i think you should drop commas from function args too 14:40:08 american middle and high schools 14:40:09 alise: I mean, without the years of education before that point, I'd've been lagging behind others 14:40:09 SUCK 14:40:10 ASS 14:40:24 And you'd call me an idiot if I were here with 10 years less education than I've got 14:40:28 (Probably.) 14:40:33 Deewiant: You can't know whether you would have self-directed your education or not. 14:40:39 Exactly 14:40:43 I would probably look far more like I have aspergers if it weren't for elementary school 14:40:49 And thus it's safer to force people into education 14:40:54 Presumably you had enough intelligence so that if you did not find intellectual stimulation you would become bored. 14:41:00 I'd be all over mechanics and programming, like I am now, but nothing else 14:41:03 Deewiant: No, I was questioning whether you wouldn't. 14:41:10 Boredom does not mean you'll do something useful 14:41:12 See procastination 14:41:17 procrastination* 14:41:19 HEY 14:41:24 procrastination isn't out of boredom 14:41:34 it's out of lack of intrest in what you're procrastinating 14:41:34 I didn't say it was 14:41:37 okay 14:41:40 Shrug 14:41:44 Maybe I'm just speshul 14:41:53 ANYWAY 14:42:00 I'm inclined to think you are: you're smarter than most people my age that I know 14:42:04 back to what started this (I think) 14:42:10 Mommmy says I'm thus! 14:42:11 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat 14:42:15 Yes, with THREE Ms! 14:42:20 I'm extra-mmm! 14:42:25 HOW THE HELL would I write an interpreter for this shit? 14:42:33 (Apart from when you act like an idiot, but I guess a lot of people my age do that too, so shrug) 14:42:43 I'm hoping to grow out of that :P 14:42:55 People do. 14:43:10 Be right back 14:43:15 too much soda withotu enough food 14:43:16 i'm actually kinda scared that i'll hit my upper bound on intelligence at like 20 14:43:21 i don't remember what grade school is 14:43:30 alise: Most people do, too. :-P 14:43:35 would be horrible to go through 60 more years with first equal, then declining intelligence 14:43:38 After that it's just accumulating knowledge 14:43:41 Deewiant: ehh I'd say people change a lot from 20 to 25 14:43:48 Well, whatever 14:43:52 well yes but there's a finite amount of relevant knowledge I could accumulate too 14:43:55 Certainly before your 30s anyway 14:44:30 i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P 14:45:09 Decay doesn't matter if the singularity works out nicely 14:45:17 But I wouldn't bet on a singularity, anyway :-P 14:45:28 i may believe many things about what a singularity can do, reversing entropy isn't one 14:45:45 and I don't believe the brain is sufficiently modularised to allow me to be imported into a shiny new cognitive facility without the decay 14:45:47 a singularity is the opposite of entropy 14:45:51 they're probably mixed 14:45:56 Wareya: not that kind of singularity. 14:45:58 unless it's an effective one instead of a physical one 14:46:00 k 14:46:08 technological singularity 14:46:13 Oh, of course 14:46:22 Deewiant: i'm not sure continuing this conversation is very fruitful, you know perfectly well i'll never agree with your perfectly sensible statements. 14:46:42 You mean argument. 14:46:50 Deewiant: I don't bet on a singularity, I hope for it 14:46:54 oklopol: If you say so :-) 14:47:01 alise: I didn't claim you do 14:47:12 I bet that a singularity is possible, and I maybe-bet that a singularity is quite feasible. 14:47:27 singularities are possible if time travel is 14:47:35 I mean reverse time travel 14:47:48 But time travel is unlikely enough that that's not a very fruitful angle 14:47:50 I'd be incluned to say the converse too, but I don't know. 14:48:44 anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain 14:48:53 :| 14:49:02 Alise, what if a brain and its consciousness were perfectly duplicated? 14:49:06 so I guess it's in my interest to try and cause a singularity before that's even a consideration 14:49:10 Wareya: oh god not this, we argued about this last night 14:49:13 i liked this better when it was doomsday 14:49:18 I don't recall 14:49:24 Pthing: define this 14:49:30 Oh right 14:49:34 Ways To Avoid Death 14:49:47 I have a radical point of view on that stuff 14:49:55 Pthing: thou art confusing me 14:50:01 Wareya: tell me it so that i may tell you how unradical it is. 14:50:02 what's so confusing 14:50:08 Pthing: define define this 14:50:33 anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain 14:50:41 i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P 14:50:59 oh I don't put the probability of a lovely magical singularity all that high 14:51:14 1 corinthians 15 14:51:43 likening singularitarianism to religion, yawn 14:51:50 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immort 14:51:50 ality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g] 14:52:03 the exact same sentiment right there 14:52:26 Any analog "computer" may be conscious, consciousnesses are detatched from their "computer", and they follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level and manipulare elementary particles to cause free will. This of course makes time travel on an above-physical level completely possible, which of course makes those eleven dimensions necesary, ruining relativity without string theory. 14:52:50 Tell me that's not radical in any way, 14:53:08 "y follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level " 14:53:12 i am not sure it is meaningful 14:53:15 let alone radical 14:53:19 my brain lunged my head away so that I could not read further once I read that 14:53:27 I have an allergic reaction to quantum mysticism 14:53:37 I HATE QUANTUM MYSTICISM 14:53:39 AAIWEFHQPWE"ZSD(_VFU@C_FXs 14:53:44 really, why 14:53:51 why what 14:53:55 Pthing: singularity theory isn't about "oh the world is going to be great" though it's just applied self-improving ai 14:54:01 and how we can direct its goals 14:54:04 \o/ 14:54:08 i think ski works 14:54:21 it's not "this will make GREAT THINGS" it's "we can make this really powerful thing, and here's a way to make it aim for great things" 14:54:40 specifically to help you, one alise, transform your natural body into a spiritual one 14:54:42 alise: Would a singularity be able to code Boat interpreter in 80 characters or less? :D 14:54:50 code a* 14:54:54 Pthing: no, I absolutely disbelieve in the existence of the spiritual 14:54:59 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt <<< also god i find this pretty 14:55:05 oh well that's a useful position 14:55:11 also notice cadaar and cadar, had to cheat a bit :< 14:55:11 I believe that minds can be run on computers, but that's *because* i'm a monist 14:55:35 I believe that digital and analog computation can only be converted in one direction 14:55:39 the only reason singularitarianism seems so "mystic" is because of the basic fact that we cannot know what something more intelligent than us will deem correct, even if we have told it what it should aim for 14:55:51 lol 14:55:52 because it in the end decides how to achieve that, and we cannot be smarter than ourselves 14:55:54 sure we can 14:56:00 we've been doing it for centuries 14:56:19 see: evolution 14:56:31 when I come back after going brb, I expect you to be behaving as a transhuman would be 14:56:46 i will then repeat. let's see if we can't cause a hard takeoff by sheer force of imagination. 14:56:52 no? okay then. brb -> 14:58:08 SO HOW ABOUT THAT THERE SKI INTERP HUH? 14:58:27 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:58:36 HOW ABOUT THAT HOW DO I WRITE AN INTERPRETER FOR A 2D LANGUAGE WITH FUCKED UP FLOW CONTROL HUH? 14:58:47 I DON'T KNOW, GO READ A BOOK 14:58:50 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat 14:58:53 BUT I SUCK 14:59:02 THEN DO SOMETHING EASIER LIKE FUCKING A GIRL 14:59:11 BUT THAT'S HARDER 14:59:18 all the girls are at their parents' houses :< 14:59:47 but seriously 15:00:01 am I insane for trying to make something like this 15:00:09 ya ttly lol ^__________^ 15:00:19 okay 15:00:20 Is it significantly more fucked up than Funge-98? 15:00:29 yes 15:00:50 no 15:01:14 Wareya: what's hard about it? 15:01:23 i mean which command? 15:01:30 expression handling 15:01:46 expression handling? what do you mean 15:01:50 I have nesting and anarchistic flow control 15:01:54 ... 15:01:55 oh you have nesting 15:02:00 okay i'll actually read that 15:02:02 lol 15:02:54 well nesting + 2d is pure genius 15:03:01 inorite:D 15:03:09 that's why i was surprised 15:03:15 but umm 15:03:17 wait, are you serious? 15:03:20 yes 15:03:31 you clearly can't parse, so it should be pretty easy 15:03:49 I just raped C, gave it a memory strip, and put it in a character array 15:03:50 ^ that wasn't serious, i just hate parsing because i parsed last night 15:04:09 yeah, but you did 2d + nesting, and it became genius 15:04:19 but C made the nesting 15:04:30 and the flow control can seriously be anywhere 15:04:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:04:50 Like 15:04:59 v=`n`(? < 15:04:59 ?(`n`!=3){`n`=`n`+1;v}^ 15:04:59 ^ 1 }< 15:04:59 >); 15:05:07 that's outdated, but it shows what I mean 15:05:23 you took 2d, and you took nesting, and you put them together, i think that's a new idea, so i claim it's genius. 15:05:26 but 15:05:38 but? 15:05:42 oh mn 15:05:43 man 15:05:49 I'll need to go over and over expressions 15:05:56 meaning i'll need to safe their coordinates 15:06:00 and I'll need to nest THAT 15:06:01 FUUUUUUCK 15:06:04 not sure it actually amounts to anything that interesting given that you have so much stuff you'll probably just end up writing pretty normal 1d programs 15:06:25 so I should strip it down? 15:06:34 (At least I don't have functions) 15:06:44 well i think so 15:06:45 dunno 15:07:22 yeah I realized how much bloat I have here just now 15:07:31 it's more than I think I originally wanted 15:07:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:08:07 i mean you can still have a nice amount of stuff in there, i'd just remove some of the technical details about segment sizes 15:08:17 what do you mean? 15:08:24 well you know i'd just have bignums :P 15:08:33 I don't know what bignums are :D 15:08:43 access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits. 15:08:54 but that's the best part! 15:08:56 that's too complicated for my small brain 15:08:56 oh? 15:08:59 yes 15:09:01 how so 15:09:12 it's how people hate dealing with endianness 15:09:21 and bits 15:09:26 ah, i see 15:09:29 so I went "Hey let's do both" 15:09:39 if it's a thing, then it's fine. 15:09:41 n^^(n,n)"rolling" exponent - 4^^(2,3) would be 4^2^2^2 15:09:43 :P 15:09:44 DELETE 15:10:25 q{n}access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits. 15:10:29 q{n}[m]array with segments the size of n with the "origin" data value being at address q - with big endian, again. 15:10:32 q{n}[m][b]multidimensional array 15:10:34 q{n}=jset value at memory address q of size n to j 15:10:37 q{n}[m]=jset value at spot m in an array to j 15:10:39 q{n}[y]use value of size n at address q as an address for a value size y 15:10:42 is this excessive? 15:11:11 bye strings 15:11:15 :P 15:11:25 I realized 15:11:41 that I don't need the built in variables at all 15:12:12 so someone gimme a nice ski program 15:12:55 %(0[1]<5){0[1]=0[1]+1}; 15:13:01 this is valid Boat as of right now 15:13:12 Oh, do I need loops? 15:13:18 seeing as it's 2D and I have a goto and all 15:13:19 definitely 15:13:21 you have to use nesting 15:13:23 for stuff 15:13:25 I mean 15:13:33 you can use if tests 15:13:39 and move out of the line of execution 15:13:43 forcing you to use 2D 15:13:45 or goto 15:14:21 I'm going to try to write something in ski jus to not be an asshole 15:14:25 Wareya: bignum = arbitrary size integer 15:14:31 stores in memory when it overflows an int 15:14:33 But that's lazy! 15:14:35 like python's ints 15:14:38 no it isn't 15:14:41 hsuh 15:14:45 hush* 15:14:57 it's not lazy, integers are always finite 15:15:18 lazy is when you have an infinite thing, not when you have an infinitely extendable thing 15:15:23 Besides, that ruins the fun of fucking with people 15:15:43 Multi-endian + bits 15:15:45 since you randomly stepped on genius by istake i'm just gonna tarpit the idea. 15:15:50 yeah, sure; as i said, if it's a thing, it's okay, i'd just make it really high level because that's the furthest away from funges. 15:16:09 huh? 15:16:18 well you know i'd want like recursion and stuff 15:16:35 but, maybe still bytes for storage 15:16:35 you can do that 15:16:41 but you don't have functions, just gotos 15:16:46 you can deal with bytes 15:16:55 but a stack + nesting + 2d mmmmmmmmmm 15:17:03 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:17:07 (address*16)[16] 15:17:11 BYTES 15:17:25 bytes \o/ 15:17:53 anyway, working with bits is better for people who want to ultra-optimize 15:18:12 and working with bytes isn't that much of a pain in the ass 15:18:40 working with high level stuff is not a pain in the ass if you use a modern language 15:18:47 like C 15:18:51 hehe 15:18:56 yeah totally 15:18:56 I love C 15:19:00 except for file i/o 15:19:04 because I suck at it 15:19:06 :D 15:19:09 you're killing me 15:19:19 :D 15:19:23 how so 15:19:34 rather Wareya than asiekierka 15:19:44 [suddenly, out of nowhere, the latter appears] 15:19:46 ...but not both. 15:19:51 well file io is you say file @ this address, then you read/write strings back and forth 15:20:04 it's not that simple 15:20:07 if you can *not understand* how to do that, your language is pretty much as bad as it can be 15:20:11 yeah, it's not that simple 15:20:12 in C. 15:20:21 you need to deal with something dealing with pointers in a way that isn't normal 15:20:22 it damn fucking hell is that simple in any modern language 15:20:22 -!- MissPiggy has joined. 15:20:31 hehe 15:20:35 like python 15:20:36 :D 15:20:43 python is ungodly at strings 15:20:48 but sucks at evverything else 15:20:50 -v 15:21:05 yeah python doesn't have tail recursion 15:21:24 but other than that... 15:21:44 well, actually i try my best to hate python, because i'd like it if i sometimes used another langauge 15:21:46 I need to rewrite my last example 15:21:48 *language 15:21:55 lol 15:22:21 i went through io is damn hard -> io is fucking easy -> io is damn hard in my language now but these super type features will make it the easiest possible except with safety... just a few more equations and it'll do it... 15:22:28 the last one is bliss. 15:22:39 lol 15:22:40 muuu 15:24:02 just talk about type theory and suddenly MissPiggy appears 15:25:03 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:25:03 MissPiggy: SO DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SKI 15:25:11 oh? 15:25:16 what hapened 15:25:26 i did it in clue 15:25:33 oh nice 15:25:45 wow cool!!! show me ? 15:25:48 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt 15:25:58 orgasmic 15:26:12 a few functions are total cheats 15:26:15 I fixed all of the Boat examples :D 15:26:25 Wareya: CLUE WAS HERE FIRST! 15:26:31 :C 15:26:36 how are they cheats 15:26:47 hackish 15:26:51 oklopol: so does this thing compile 15:26:57 yes! 15:26:58 if so show the output, I wanna see how efficient it compiles to 15:27:11 there's no way to see the output yet 15:27:14 dump the ast 15:27:18 i'll add that, but it's nontrivial 15:27:22 well 15:27:32 okay it's trivial, but it will still take some time 15:27:36 oh my god !!!!!!!! 15:27:39 see there's no ast, there's just python code. 15:27:47 how the hell does this work 15:27:52 i compiled to lambdas for funsies 15:27:55 :P 15:28:05 MissPiggy: it's just brute force 15:28:18 oklopol: print the python code then 15:28:24 hmm, well okay maybe 15:28:29 just replace return (lambda bitchass: ...) with return "(lambda bitchass: ...)" or w/e :P 15:28:46 yeah i guess that'd work 15:29:12 the "glue" function that does all the work is just a bit... not optimally pretty :P 15:29:19 well 15:29:25 i guess it's just one line i'll need to fix tho 15:29:28 or change 15:29:39 maybe i'll make it always also return some sorta AST, maybe that's simple 15:30:09 but first, someone give me some ski, i've just tested trivial stuff 15:30:32 MissPiggy: or did you mean how does the ski interp work? 15:30:45 because i think the code is pretty easy to read 15:30:46 -!- Gregor has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:30:56 it's pitiful that I have 9 updates in a row on the recent changes list 15:31:03 yeah i can read it 15:31:07 it's just CDR coding 15:31:15 -!- Gregor has joined. 15:31:45 how long does that file take to compile? 15:31:55 yeah most of ski is just list manipulation, the only hard part i guess was to get "ski type?" to work, and to get "ski apply" to actually compile, had to add cadaar and cadar 15:32:03 like a few minutes 15:32:04 :D 15:32:09 nice 15:32:21 -!- base3 has joined. 15:32:36 I don't know anything abotu ski 15:32:38 educate me 15:32:50 oh wait 9 seconds now 15:32:52 about* 15:33:37 Wareya: S = \x y z.x z (y z) 15:33:44 Wareya: K = \x y.x 15:33:58 The above is Turing complete. 15:34:07 wait, what? 15:34:35 Any lambda calculus expression can be compiled into usage of S and K. 15:34:36 pikhq: he only knows C, Python and some game maker scripting language thing 15:34:40 and says he hates functional languages 15:34:44 alise: Oh dear. 15:34:45 sooo 15:34:49 it'll probably take a few hours to explain SKI 15:34:53 Wareya: if you have (((s a) b) c) somewhere, you'll change it to ((a c) (b c)), if you have ((k a) b) somewhere, you change it to just a 15:34:58 alise functional languages are hiary 15:35:01 hairy 15:35:02 oklopol: that also 15:35:05 Wareya: Let's start with lambda. 15:35:09 let's not 15:35:12 ski is just term rewriting 15:35:22 Wareya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus 15:35:23 ((S a) b) c -> (a c) (b c) 15:35:26 :P 15:35:28 (K a) b -> a 15:35:29 lambda calculus is kind of hard to start with to explain SK 15:35:33 we can use this to model functions 15:35:40 let I = ((S K) K) 15:35:54 (I x) -> (((S K) K) x) 15:36:07 -> (K x) (K x) 15:36:25 which is (K a) b 15:36:30 a = x, b = (K x) 15:36:33 so we rewrite it to x 15:36:43 so, from two rewrite rules, we can express a function that takes an argument and returns it 15:36:55 the thing is you have to understand how to translate all those parens into nested structures in your head, not sure C teaches that 15:36:56 we can express any turing-computable function with only combinations of these S and K terms 15:37:09 thus, it is a turing-complete programming language. 15:37:14 well, Wareya can probably say he has no idea what's going on, himself, if that's the case 15:37:21 * alise winces and braces for the "it can't do IO so C is more powerful" 15:37:33 you can do IO in C 15:37:39 err... yes, yes you can 15:37:47 asm is even more tc than C 15:38:27 (8.3 seconds without any debug info) 15:38:31 LC is lame for theoretical purity if you have SK 15:38:31 i'll add asts now 15:38:47 oklopol: just replace "lambda x: y" with Lambda("x", y) etc :P 15:38:55 or even ('lam','x',y) knowing you 15:39:01 alise: Oh, hey. Don't think you saw. 15:39:11 alise: I wrote a SK evaluator in C. 15:39:18 alise: Using my lambda macro. 15:39:20 I saw. 15:39:27 Probably while reading the logs last week. 15:39:28 Oh, right. Log reading. 15:39:29 XD 15:39:38 alise once compiled underload to c 15:39:43 I STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND 15:39:52 Wareya, let me try to explain, 15:40:01 Wareya: do you understand how (1 (2 3)) is a tree? 15:40:11 NOPE 15:40:12 > S a b c = a c (b c); 15:40:13 > K a b = a; 15:40:13 > S K K a; 15:40:13 a 15:40:13 > S a K b; 15:40:13 a b (K b) 15:40:15 Pure is awesome 15:40:18 Wareya, imagine you have a forest with lots of different kinds of birds in it 15:40:22 :D 15:40:27 TOO STUPID OF A METAPHOR 15:40:29 TRY AGAIN 15:40:33 MissPiggy <3 15:40:40 rich coming from "ASPERGER'S IS sOFtWARE aUTISM IS HARDWARE" man 15:40:49 YES 15:40:56 Wareya that was pretty rude 15:41:00 > S I I a; 15:41:01 a a 15:41:02 I APOLOGIZE 15:41:10 symbolic evaluation is a wonderful thing 15:41:17 yeah but you kind of lost it 15:41:18 I AM PISSY, GIDDY, AND HYPER 15:41:25 I don't really care what you are 15:41:28 OKAY 15:41:38 How about no caps lock?\ 15:41:41 hi MissPiggy 15:42:00 peace 15:45:23 alise you know I spent the whole night dreaming about the link between complexn numbers and consciousness -_- 15:45:30 lol 15:45:33 XD 15:45:53 another one of those mornings when you wake up with a headache 15:45:53 are you saying that complex numbers aren't computable? 15:46:09 (at least not digitally) 15:46:09 Wareya -- do you want to try again? 15:46:13 yes 15:46:26 wait, you think a digital computer cannot be conscious? 15:46:36 only an analogue one? 15:46:39 I do not believe that digital computers can be conscious 15:46:42 only analog ones 15:46:50 but only the core needs to be consious 15:46:58 Wareya: okay listen 15:47:01 you know what a neuron is? 15:47:01 so, an analog computer could run a digital one 15:47:03 yes 15:47:05 billions of them in our brain right 15:47:08 yes 15:47:09 you know we can emulate them on digital computers right? 15:47:11 and do so 15:47:16 emulate 15:47:23 they emulate analog sound effects 15:47:24 yes. emulate is the same thing as run natively, just slower 15:47:25 Wareya so there is a bird called the idiot bird, because whatever you say to it -- it just says it back. we can represent it as Ix = x. for example if II = I. And theres another bird called the mocking bird which repeats everything it hears twice Mx = xx. 15:47:31 on digital computers 15:47:34 also neurons are primarily digital... 15:47:43 yet they have an analog section 15:47:47 furthermore, you have not provided any evidence for your claim 15:47:52 that's the part I think causes consciousness 15:47:54 of course I haven't 15:47:58 that's why I said it was radical 15:48:01 unless you do so, I have no obligation to consider it 15:48:02 piggy: okayy reading now 15:48:09 -y 15:48:12 Wareya so if I call 'Idiot' to the Mocking bird it calles out idiot idiot and then idiot bird just says idiot, so that is MI = II = I, do you understand? 15:48:26 MissPiggy: just go for S and K 15:48:28 M isn't important 15:48:28 alise: I suspect this is going to end up in the Chinese room argument. 15:49:25 yes 15:49:27 I understand 15:50:11 -!- Libster has joined. 15:50:24 butts 15:50:27 alise: Like I said, my excuse is that analog computers that run the consciousness hook up to digital ones to do logical work 15:50:44 Yes, that is very, very asinine 15:50:50 thnx 15:50:54 not you :D 15:50:55 i too 15:50:55 Libster: wat 15:50:57 oh 15:51:00 i am trolling 15:51:01 get my models of consciousness from like 15:51:03 pulp novels 15:51:03 am i doing a good job? 15:51:07 nope 15:51:10 :( 15:51:12 I am so confused in the few seconds since you joined 15:51:15 go rtoll 4chan by being a shitty troll like I do 15:51:19 troll* 15:51:19 please tell me how i can do a better job Wareya 15:51:22 sorry guys this is my fault 15:51:24 woah that must take some doing 15:51:25 -!- MissPiggy has left (?). 15:51:26 you think *you* *trolled* 4chan? 15:51:30 no 15:51:35 just some people on it 15:51:40 that thought I was a bad troll 15:51:42 no, they were trolling you 15:51:51 cockblocking trolls is a sacred art! 15:52:05 so what are you nerds up to 15:52:12 something awesome 15:52:25 cool 15:52:34 10:51 < MissPiggy> sorry guys this is my fault 15:52:36 10:51 -!- MissPiggy [~none@unaffiliated/fax] has left #esoteric [] 15:52:38 i sad 15:53:04 idiot 15:53:11 idiot idiot 15:53:12 but i AM an idiot 15:53:17 idiot 15:53:20 idiot idiot 15:53:20 that made my day, base3 15:53:22 Wareya: don't feed Libster and base3, they followed misspiggy here 15:53:29 but i am hungry 15:53:33 cool 15:53:43 please feed me 15:53:48 * Wareya fedds libster 15:53:53 thanks bud 15:53:55 I'mma fedd you 15:54:00 cool 15:54:01 i knew this channel was full of fedds 15:54:07 I'm kidding. 15:54:19 Alise, please tell me how to slim down Boat 15:54:21 :( 15:54:23 watch out Libster they might track you down and arrest you 15:54:32 oh no!!!! 15:54:51 Wareya: see /msg. 15:55:05 no problem Libster just mask your ip with /quit 15:55:18 hey i invented a new eosteric programming language 15:55:18 type /quit IP 15:55:22 here's the syntax 15:55:25 SPAM 15:55:26 SPAM 15:55:26 SPAM 15:55:26 SPAM 15:55:26 SPAM 15:55:27 SPAM 15:55:28 SPAM 15:55:30 SPAM 15:55:32 SPAM 15:55:34 SPAM 15:55:36 SPAM 15:55:38 SPAM 15:55:40 SPAM 15:55:42 SPAM 15:55:44 SPAM 15:55:46 SPAM 15:55:50 pretty funny, right? 15:56:00 lol montey pythan 15:56:04 i love that british humouur 15:56:10 fuck i hate british humor 15:56:11 hey pthing 15:56:14 and i hate british 15:56:14 hi! 15:56:17 how about you? 15:56:23 im fine 15:56:24 tell me how to slim down Boat 15:56:27 idk 15:56:32 eat less 15:56:35 exercise more 15:57:13 question 15:57:27 does 4^(4^4) end up being the same as 4^4^4^4 ever 15:57:32 or any change of the parenthesis 15:58:40 Wareya: if you take (4^4) or a higher tower as a power ever 15:58:56 it will clearly end up bigger than 4^(4^4) 15:59:01 like I'm thinkin of doing something like 15:59:07 since you still have to add in another 4 somewhere 15:59:11 4^^4=4^4^4^4 15:59:13 so the only possibility is 15:59:20 Congratulations, you invented tetration 15:59:22 and 4^^^4=4^^4^^4^^4=UGH 15:59:25 power tower 15:59:30 great because I don't know what that is 15:59:31 Knuth wants a word with you. 15:59:31 4^(4^4) = (((4^4)^4)^4) 15:59:33 What about knith arrows? 15:59:36 with u 15:59:37 knuth arrows 15:59:39 can you link me to an article? 15:59:41 Wareya: 15:59:44 See wikipedia 15:59:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation 16:00:04 I SEE THINGS I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE 16:00:08 Libster!!! 16:00:09 therefore I say I'll learn it later 16:00:10 :D 16:00:12 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 16:00:14 hi 16:00:20 i am trolling this channel 16:00:40 Super Cave Story, Bro 16:00:54 Libster: wanna see my new ski interp? 16:00:59 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt 16:01:03 what does tha tmean 16:01:06 sorry i am not a nerd 16:01:14 compiles in just 8.5 seconds 16:01:20 cool what are you talking about 16:01:23 but 4^(4^4) does not equal ((4^4)^4)^4, because it clearly equals (((4^4)^4)^4)^4 16:01:24 ski is this combinatory logic thingie 16:01:45 o 16:01:48 you just have three functions and you apply them to each other 16:02:01 i just use it to test my languages because it's trivial to implement 16:02:25 it's based on the theory that three idiots working together can accomplish anything 16:02:32 but this is so great, Libster and base3 on #eso 16:02:36 it's like christmas 16:02:42 true 16:02:56 we came here to troll 16:03:05 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:03:13 hahah alament is here 16:03:27 sometimes 16:03:28 yeah he's our friendly op. 16:03:35 not that he ever does any opping. and he isn't really friendly 16:04:03 this isn't really his thing anymore, but he enjoys listening to us with his ears 16:04:06 oklopol: do i know you? 16:04:17 base3: no, but i often watch you on #math 16:04:31 -!- lament has joined. 16:04:43 hi lament 16:04:58 but me and Libster are best buds 16:05:01 oklopol: if you're interesting in antisocial or potentially unlawful activities tangentially related to math, you should join #~math 16:05:13 totally 16:05:43 we're sort of like a outlaw math gang 16:05:48 i used to be there, i just tend to part all channels when vista decides it can't open any more windows unless i part a few channels. 16:05:49 true 16:05:50 Super Cave Story, Bro 16:05:53 i see 16:06:04 i always thought you were a bit cooler than the other mathholes 16:06:10 true 16:06:49 so are you guys going to have sex, in which case just get (a) a room and (b) it over with, or else just, you know, I don't know, I didn't consider this case when deciding to be an asshole 16:07:08 alise, picture? 16:07:10 lol 16:07:22 lol alise 16:07:25 erm, actually, given the context, that sounds kind of strange. You know what I mean 16:07:44 can i have sex with you alise 16:08:05 Sgeo_: not now, I'm busy whoring out my body to *other* people 16:08:20 only regulars can have sex with alise 16:08:29 can i have sex with you oklopol 16:08:35 troll cocks are too big 16:08:40 true 16:08:56 we could do math together 16:09:01 -!- alise has left (?). 16:09:03 -!- alise has joined. 16:10:59 guys 16:11:05 what should I do to slim down boat 16:11:06 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat 16:11:08 this boat 16:11:17 throw your passengers overboard 16:11:33 while maintainging the retarded way of dealing with memory, 2Dness, and expression nesting 16:13:25 I guess I could limit myself to if tests and increment/decrementation 16:13:56 use linux it will make your code faster 16:14:03 that's a no brainer 16:15:58 this is not about speed, this is about ease of implementing it 16:16:02 so even more definitely linux, huh 16:16:13 linux has all the right stuff 16:16:36 but linux IS faster 16:16:39 wait 16:16:42 you were serious? 16:16:46 i was just trolling 16:16:52 man you guys are stupid 16:16:57 no shit you're trolling 16:17:02 but yes I'm serious 16:17:23 as opposed to what, windows? linux has a better task switcher iirc 16:17:28 and probably the syscalls are better 16:17:30 task switcher? 16:17:33 and yes 16:17:34 so, theoretically, you could say it's faster 16:17:44 yes you could say that if you are stupid 16:17:44 Wareya: if you don't know what a task switcher is... ... i have nothing to say 16:17:59 ALT+TAB 16:18:00 HAHA 16:18:21 well fuck, Wareya's complete retardation has made him unable to stop feeding the trolls thus turning this channel into a shithole 16:18:22 thanks, Wareya 16:18:29 yeah thanks 16:18:31 i appreciate it 16:18:42 but these trolls are cool 16:18:56 true 16:33:23 http://64.vg/src/cb37635de8f76f2b2587fbace50d0427/raw 16:33:47 or: http://64.vg/uoa 16:39:03 See, now the channel's dead. 16:39:57 good 16:40:28 At least the trolling finally ended. 16:41:43 hi 16:41:48 Wareya: you fucking moron 16:41:53 just shut up 16:42:02 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 16:42:02 (_) __| (_) ___ | |_ (_) __| (_) ___ | |_ 16:42:02 | |/ _` | |/ _ \| __| | |/ _` | |/ _ \| __| 16:42:02 | | (_| | | (_) | |_ | | (_| | | (_) | |_ 16:42:02 |_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__| |_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__| 16:42:09 l@l 16:43:56 馬鹿ね。…… 16:44:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net. 16:44:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com. 16:44:26 :o 16:44:32 Funny, ChanServ automagically goes hostmasky when you give it a nickname. 16:44:46 \o/ 16:44:58 hey they weren't so bad 16:45:06 i feel kind of awkward with them still sitting, brooding, silent 16:45:09 although i guess it's nice to aknowledge someone's trolling 16:45:13 like what if they stay here for years and someone unbans them by mistake 16:45:18 and a million lines come through in 0 seconds 16:45:18 *ack 16:45:24 that's scary 16:45:35 I was mostly going by the 16 consecutive lines of "SPAM". 16:45:39 I'd start chanting "kick them" but there isn't enough of an angry mob 16:45:42 hehe 16:45:47 anyway 16:45:50 esoteric languages 16:45:51 oh what the hell. KICK THEM! KICK THEM! :| 16:45:51 they're cool 16:45:53 but i do o 16:45:54 o 16:45:54 o 16:45:54 o 16:45:54 o 16:45:54 I don't know much abotu them 16:45:58 educate me 16:46:00 and i never get banned 16:46:01 oklopol: you're allowed, because you're cool 16:46:03 ah! 16:46:11 and say awesome stuff in the non-oing interims 16:46:20 plus you don't copy-paste "SPAM" you handcraft every o 16:46:22 every single o 16:46:24 well that's even truer i guess 16:46:25 anyway 16:46:29 esoteric languages are cool 16:46:32 and I don't know much abotu them 16:46:34 educate me 16:46:50 did I seriously make the same typo twice? 16:46:54 That's pathetic 16:47:20 i'd tell you about good ones but they're all functional 16:47:41 but I don't know much about functional languages either 16:47:42 -!- Libster has left (?). 16:47:48 (I assume Freenode's guidelines mean I should have been more of a "catalyst" somehow there, but I suck at chemistry.) 16:48:53 Wareya: Functional programming is simple, but unlike what you're used to. 16:49:02 one's gone 16:49:06 but base3 is holding the fort 16:49:08 storing energy 16:49:09 like a pokemon 16:49:11 I understand the basic concept 16:49:16 Functional programming deals with true functions. That is, they map from input values to an output value. 16:49:19 And that's it. 16:49:23 yes 16:49:35 fizzie: I think blatant intentional spam and trolling is meant to be dealt with BLOOD 16:49:41 but it's at the level of the actual language that I really hate dealing with 16:49:57 especially purely fucntional ones 16:50:01 That's because you're not used to dealing with the abstractions is all. 16:50:17 Of course. 16:50:35 alise: Yes, but that'd be *increasing the channel temperature*! And I don't want to get all sweaty here. 16:50:37 Learn you some Haskell. 16:50:43 (delicious, delicious Haskell) 16:50:50 he said he started then gave up 16:50:57 alise: Lame. 16:51:02 indeed 16:51:52 I used it for five ffreaking weeks 16:51:52 -!- MissPiggy has joined. 16:51:55 -f 16:52:00 I just couldn't get anything done with it 16:52:00 lol 16:52:06 Wareya: Weak. 16:52:21 awesome story 16:52:31 Keep on doing it. 16:53:08 Wareya: You did not learn Haskell. 16:53:10 should I do address[size] 16:53:12 You learned Haskell's syntax, yes. 16:53:14 or size[address] 16:53:19 You learned how it relates to imperative languages. 16:53:26 actually 16:53:28 Given that you don't seem to grok lambda, doesn't seem like you learned much. 16:53:28 But you never made the transition from programming in an imperative language then converting it to Haskell, 16:53:30 all I learned was the syntax 16:53:33 to someone who programs and thinks directly in Haskell. 16:53:40 Wareya: then how did you compile a thing? 16:53:46 You had to have some understanding of the semantics, however wrong and weak. 16:53:47 I didn't :D 16:53:59 The syntax was pretty easy... 16:54:02 then you were foolish to program in a language 16:54:20 yes 16:54:22 yes I was 16:54:43 Any language. 16:54:49 :P 16:54:53 lolp 16:55:29 anyway 16:55:45 with boat, should I do address[size] or size[address]? 16:56:02 either one causes problems - either with casting or with arrays 16:56:21 what do those mean? 16:56:29 addressing of memory 16:56:30 Clearly [] should be commutative. 16:56:58 Wareya: make it swap when going left or right 16:57:02 so you always write it one way in the source 16:57:03 :D 16:57:17 there are four directions 16:57:21 ie foo[bar] or ]bar[foo 16:57:28 then it's always foo[bar] in the source if you go at it left or right 16:57:36 thank you for doing ]bar[ by the way 16:57:41 alise: here, it's just you'd need to know how these lambdas are actually used http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p214535314.txt 16:57:51 #i are just argument numbers 16:58:02 that's "ski apply" 16:58:15 oklopol: that isn't a nested structure :< 16:58:26 in C, (char)*address would be address[16] with address[size] 16:58:30 on a big endianmachine 16:58:33 +space 16:58:39 alise: what? 16:58:41 that's how the boat thing goes 16:58:44 Wareya: or size[address] 16:58:46 x[y] = *(x+y) 16:58:50 x+y = y+x 16:58:50 size address would be 16:58:53 16[address] 16:58:55 of course 16:58:59 ∴ y[x] = x[y] 16:59:09 wait, what? 16:59:20 poor kiddy doesn't know C 16:59:22 Wareya: ok, in C 16:59:23 x[y] is sugar for 16:59:25 *(x + y) 16:59:27 we know that 16:59:29 x + y = y + x 16:59:29 right? 16:59:32 therefore 16:59:35 oh I didn't know it was C 16:59:36 *(x + y) = *(y + x) 16:59:37 lol 16:59:41 since x[y] is *(x + y) 16:59:42 alise: what do you mean it's not a nested structure? 16:59:44 y[x] = x[y] 16:59:46 therefore 16:59:52 1["abc"] = 'b' 17:00:00 oklopol: well it looks like it's printing parts of the ast separately 17:00:02 maybe i'm wrong 17:00:10 I have never used strings like that but OKAY 17:01:31 alise: there's no one ast, running the result isn't just calling one functino 17:01:32 *function 17:01:34 well it is 17:01:43 well true 17:01:50 but the logic isn't in the core language 17:01:52 so, that code looks remarkably compact 17:01:55 where's the actual application 17:02:02 this is ski right 17:02:07 well i can explain what it actually does 17:02:12 that's just the ski apply function 17:02:21 so it's compacted everything into one? 17:02:28 or is it just referencing out 17:02:35 anyway, this could be transformed into haskell really easily 17:02:39 apart from the untypedness 17:02:48 have a feeling compiled clue code could be very fast 17:02:53 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116522211.txt <<< slightly clearer, although not much 17:03:08 oklopol: you should make an ffi there instead of trying to formulate a function, it tries to find one based on the guesses :D 17:03:10 it does condition, and chooses branch based on the result 17:03:19 have some sort of representation of io, so you can say like 17:03:28 "foo" -> output "foo\n" 17:03:29 Base branch (i) means if the cond result is i, run this base branch 17:03:34 that would be fun 17:03:45 Subast(0,0):['car', ['cdr', '#0']] 17:03:45 Main ast: '#1' 17:03:47 oklopol: ah i see 17:04:07 subast(i,j) means find for subcall i the argument number j 17:04:28 a 17:04:38 oklopol: can it infer ackermann 17:04:47 and yeah it could be transformed into something haskellish sure. 17:04:52 and obviously it can infer ackermann 17:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:05:08 hmm it's obviously tc but i wonder if you can infer any tc function directly ie without interpreting :) 17:05:11 if you can do it functionally, you can do it cluely, it just might be a big pain in the ass 17:05:21 although i find simple functions nicer to write in this than functionally 17:05:54 (e(e))you can nest expressions - 2D flow and tests and execution included for major FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF 17:06:04 yeah i don't know how much you can do "directly", not that that's a very precise thing to ask 17:06:05 q[n]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at address q with n bits in size 17:06:06 q[n]WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at address n with q bits in size - when going left it'd look like ]n[q for note. 17:06:23 all sufficiently complicated list interpreter blah blah and so on 17:06:27 *lisp 17:06:52 (read that as a set of words that you can fit in a sentence as homework) 17:07:49 I'll make it so that it's little endian if you're going left or up! 17:07:52 oklopol: wait even if you infer ski 17:07:56 you have to infer a function that calls it 17:08:02 huh? 17:08:04 so even if you have ski, you may not be able to cause it to be called in an arbitrary way 17:08:06 oklopol: well wait 17:08:09 how do you 'run' a clue program 17:08:14 i haven't decided ! :D 17:08:14 do you define a main function and punch values into it on the cli? 17:08:18 yeah prolly 17:08:22 something like that 17:08:27 but if you had to make one inferred function 17:08:28 say main 17:08:38 where basically 17:08:40 that's always called with like 0 17:08:43 the result value was what is output 17:08:47 yeah 17:08:48 then 17:08:53 oklopol: no 17:08:57 that's always called with the user input 17:08:59 as a list of chars (ints) 17:09:07 you'd have to find a way to parse and call ski arbitrarily from that 17:09:14 i.e. you may not be able to infer arbitrary calls to ski 17:09:22 so even if you have an ski impl, if you go by my route it may not be tc! 17:09:26 well then you'd have to parse, and parsing is inherently quite mutual in its recursion 17:09:34 at least the way i usually do it 17:09:39 yes but I mean 17:09:51 clue may not be able to infer the actual call to eval ski(x) 17:11:00 what? just say "if main gets [1, 2, 3] as input, it should parse that input and call ski with it" 17:11:30 that's depth 2 inference, and will happen in less than a second 17:11:31 maybe i'm misunderstanding something 17:11:33 now let me understand the ski apply function 17:12:50 ok then 17:17:17 how should I deal with input? 17:18:12 have there be a certain location in space where characters, as they are inputted, appear; each cycle, they go down one position 17:18:14 it's a fountain of input 17:18:22 do not argue with me, this is an excellent idea 17:18:27 going down until you reach a character works as ungetc 17:18:34 what about multiple inputs? 17:19:09 well, I COULD send press and release statements 17:19:25 yeah that works 17:20:15 ha you actually like that idea? 17:20:18 i was half joking but i like it too 17:20:25 I don't really like it 17:20:46 because I can't find a way to deal with the whole "new memory area" concept :P 17:20:52 just an area of main memory 17:21:00 that could ruin stuff, though 17:21:07 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt 17:21:07 there's some ugly pseudohaskell for ya 17:21:45 I barely understand 17:21:54 ski type also does a major part of this 17:22:32 the types are 0 = do nothing, 1 = apply i, 2 = apply k, 3 = apply s, 4 = at least depth 4, first recurse on the first element of list, then retry evaluating this 17:22:44 I'll just let the program TEST for input of a certain character 17:22:50 but how do I do that withotu a function? 17:22:52 that was hell to infer btw :P 17:23:04 because I don't want to fuck with things like that with a 2D language 17:23:10 and i think it's more insight to clue than that code there is 17:23:22 I'm talking abotu boat 17:23:23 but i think it's sort of neat 17:23:26 couldn't have written the program better myself, really 17:23:51 Wareya: sorry i'm so excited about my own thing i mostly ignore boat and logread it every few minutes :| 17:24:01 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:24:10 i mean my life finally has meaning 17:24:15 clue is the shit 17:24:19 oklopol: you should make it do de bruijn indexes 17:24:32 i'm not sure what you mean 17:24:39 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:24:39 k is \\2, s is \\\2 0 (1 0) 17:24:44 lol 17:25:01 i.e. currying, lambdas have no variable names, var 0 = closest lambda's arg 17:25:04 var 1 = second-closest 17:25:04 etc 17:25:15 you don't have to do alpha-conversion because it's a nop 17:25:19 and you can just use a stack to implement it 17:25:25 i'm basically doing exactly that 17:25:28 and syntactic equality = structural equality 17:25:31 oklopol: nah because you have 17:25:34 (\#0 #1 -> #0) as K 17:25:44 instead of (\\#1) 17:25:50 the names of vars change as you nest deeper 17:25:57 so you can just use a stack 17:25:57 well yeah i'm not doing that in the haskell representation i did manually 17:25:59 anser when you're not tied up etc, but: What syntax do I use for checking if a character is being pressed 17:26:04 oklopol: right 17:26:09 answer* 17:26:11 Wareya: don't, use the fountain 17:26:17 but the fountain is broken 17:26:24 the actual "ast" field of the branch representing k is "#0" 17:26:43 it's like playing solitare where you can't skip cards 17:27:06 the haskell thing is just in case you want to see how the crappy "ast" currently spouted by the compiler maps to meaning 17:27:44 oklopol: ooh I know 17:28:13 oklopol: compile it to http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/epic.php; basically, it's the strict untyped-apart-from-some-conveniences-like-ints lambda calculus (with optional laziness) 17:28:21 the special thing is that the compiler tries really hard to produce really fast code 17:28:27 so you can say 17:28:40 Clue: So it takes 9 seconds to compile S I I (S I I), but it executes in 8. 17:28:55 i just realized it'd be incredibly trivial to change it to output that 17:29:11 define that 17:29:14 epic or haskelly 17:29:19 i mean so trivial it's basically just changing some of the constant strings 17:30:28 so how would "(\#0 #1 #2 -> pair #1 #2) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2" look like? 17:30:48 i was thinking just like (pair #1 #2) @ #0 sub3res1 sub3res2 17:30:54 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:31:10 otherwise pretty much exactly the syntax i have now 17:31:13 you mean in epic? 17:31:20 is (\ a b -> c) curried in yours? 17:31:22 or does it not matter? 17:32:03 SII doesn't execute in 8 seconds 17:32:03 *SII(SII) 17:32:08 it was a joke 17:32:18 but you still haven't said whether you're talking about epic or something else 17:33:26 http://64.vg/uot 17:33:37 oklopol: ??? 17:33:59 minimized Boat 17:34:07 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:34:23 hi 17:34:30 not really, i don't know what that would change 17:34:47 oklopol: well epic can actually compile things to efficient C code as opposed to your pseudocode which can't :P 17:34:57 there are no higher-order functions 17:35:03 right 17:35:06 with epic you don't even have lambda 17:35:10 because it's a supercombinator compiler 17:35:58 oklopol: i'm getting the feeling you're ignoring me 17:36:11 what about me 17:36:12 why can't it? 17:36:15 j/k 17:36:21 oklopol: why can't epic have lambdas? 17:36:33 because it's meant as a target language, so you're meant to have lambda-lifted already. however clue does not require lambdas 17:36:35 i don't think 17:37:12 hmm the only values in clue are lists and ints aren't they 17:37:34 what are supercombinators 17:37:55 lambda expressions with no free variables containing no lambdas 17:38:04 i.e. flat lambdas 17:38:38 probably compiling to epic would be nicer than compiling to C, but i could just not to either. 17:39:17 well it saves you writing an evaluator 17:39:23 and http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt is literally a stone's throw away from epic 17:40:13 sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0 17:40:14 wut 17:40:18 does that make sense? 17:40:19 what's cdr's car 17:42:17 so about that simplified boat 17:42:26 er minimalized 17:42:55 3 => (\#0, #1, #2, #3 -> #3) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2 sub3res3 17:42:58 I think I have figured out how one one could compute discrete coordinates in presence of wormholes.... 17:43:00 this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right? 17:43:04 and ignores the rest 17:44:23 Hmm. Y'know, I think most of the evaluation time in my SKI evaluator is the garbage collection. 17:45:00 okay my lag is too big for ircing 17:45:30 oklopol: How close connection is to being unstable? 17:45:55 yes 17:46:00 -!- base3 has left (?). 17:46:21 and i meant clue doesn't have any higher-order stuff 17:46:33 oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt here's what I think your program would look like in Epic 17:47:23 *case ski_type(_0) 17:48:22 clue needs tail call optimisation right? 17:48:26 or at least tail recursion 17:48:30 is that a real term? 17:48:35 a real term? 17:48:41 in any case that's what i have 17:48:46 ? 17:48:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion ? 17:48:57 he knows what tail recursion is 17:49:00 oklopol: what real term? 17:49:19 aiight 17:49:28 tail call optimization? 17:50:09 there are subcomputations that are called with the main computation's arguments and each others outputs, so they are sorta lambdas, but the structure is always the same, so they aren't very real 17:50:09 alise: is flat lambda a real term 17:50:09 sorry, 400 seconds lag 17:50:14 Wareya: This is actually easy to explain in C. 17:50:23 oklopol: no they're really called supercombinators 17:50:28 void foo(){printf("Foo!\n");foo();} 17:50:31 oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time 17:50:43 Because foo() is the last thing called, the function does not need to be returned to. 17:50:55 So, the compiler can not keep around the stack frame. 17:51:02 Instead of "call foo", it can just do "jmp foo". 17:51:07 oh 17:51:11 no shit 17:51:30 So, tail recursive functions are easily compiled into loops. 17:52:14 "alise: sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0" <<< sorry car (cdr #0) 17:52:15 "alise: this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right?" <<< yes 17:52:24 tail calls can be compiled into jumps 17:52:26 oklopol: right I fixed that. http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt just to repeat 17:52:28 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt 17:52:28 even more general than 17:52:28 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt 17:52:31 so you don't 17:52:31 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt 17:52:32 miss it 17:52:32 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt 17:52:35 on the next flood you get 17:53:14 and the only values are, at least now, ints and lists. 17:53:45 http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 17:53:45 http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 17:53:46 http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 17:53:46 http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 17:53:46 http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 17:53:47 C version 17:53:50 MissPiggy: Yes, but tail calls that aren't tail recursion are less common. 17:53:59 pikhq: I disagree 17:54:02 okay 17:54:02 I rarely recurse 17:54:03 (though continuation-passing style does it all the bloody time) 17:54:19 tail recurse that is 17:54:19 "alise: clue needs tail call optimisation right?" <<< yes, although i'm fine with not having it for now. 17:54:24 alise: Explicitly. 17:54:26 most of my tail calls are non-recursion 17:54:32 Anyways. 17:54:39 well i think epic almost certainly does TCO 17:54:42 Still pretty darned common. 17:54:45 and http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog will do tco if you put it through gcc :P 17:54:50 -O3 will probably unroll all the functions there 17:55:20 Yeah, GCC does TCO rather nicely. 17:55:53 "alise: oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time" <<< i got it with about a 5 minute lag. 17:56:03 well the lag is less now 17:56:13 (though things like "longjmp" break it) 17:56:43 Putting my C version through gcc will probably result in http://pastie.org/824550.txt?key=kwk16wfca7b8zitdyh59ew 17:56:46 if you give it -O3 17:56:51 which will also tail-call optimise it 17:57:00 thus making it pretty much as efficient a compilation as possible 17:57:03 *Fski_type(_0) 18:01:36 so about minimizing boat 18:05:32 * alise wonders how much a super-optimising compiler should evaluate code 18:05:35 up to IO: no, nontermination 18:05:46 only what it can prove total: large mathematical program would take years 18:05:57 we need something just below 18:05:59 hahaha 18:06:00 i.e. everything trivially total 18:06:14 like some way of measuring how "complicated" something is to eval 18:06:23 everything it can prove total whose complicatedness is below a certain threshold 18:07:06 Up to an inability to deduce a smaller way to do something 18:07:24 at which point it should assume brute-force status! 18:09:45 alise: is that actual epic code? could i just translate to exactly that? because that would indeed be trivial 18:10:02 oklopol: well there's no actual spec I just base dit on this: http://www-fp.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~eb/darcs/EpiVM/examples/testprog.e 18:10:13 I know it has actual ints btw so ignore the fact that that defines them itsellf 18:10:14 itself 18:10:16 (albeit using 0 and 1) 18:10:25 to do your lists just do Con head (Con head ()) 18:10:29 and case on that 18:10:35 but yes, per my knowledge of epic, that should work 18:10:54 hmm 18:10:57 my types were wrong though 18:11:00 Data isn't correct 18:11:02 I think it should be Any 18:11:08 for it may be data and it may be an int 18:11:12 so yes, s/Data/Any/g in my program 18:11:28 but according to my understanding of epic, yes, that should work. 18:11:57 if you want http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog with gcc -O3 should compile to something competent as well 18:12:03 basically identical code 18:12:07 epic probably does more lambday optimisations though 18:12:13 http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/VIDEOS/fire_control_computer_1.html 18:12:17 this is sooooooooooooooo sexy 18:13:49 MissPiggy: in the language in http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf you never have to prove totality right? 18:13:52 the compiler can do it in all cases 18:14:06 alise: also i forgot one tiny thing: you have to actually recurse on the subcases :D 18:14:23 oklopol: well, you didn't do that, so there :) 18:14:28 oklopol: btw why do you have all those useless functions? 18:14:33 couldn't you just inline them all? 18:14:44 it's an absolutely trivial transformation, after all 18:14:50 what useless functions? 18:14:54 MissPiggy: I saw that URL and just assumed it was Eugene Lee's Lover :P 18:14:58 oklopol: all the _ski stuff 18:15:10 Gregor: ditto 18:15:14 oklopol: (in mine) 18:15:16 oklopol: in the where clause 18:15:18 you can inline every single one 18:16:44 sure you can, but that would've been much less illustrative imo 18:18:05 -!- Libster has joined. 18:18:06 but faster 18:18:12 fizzie: Libster is still banned right? 18:18:16 maybe changed ident 18:18:26 "faster"? 18:18:26 what 18:18:32 oklopol: less function calls 18:18:32 faster to read? i don't think so 18:18:42 it was 74-102 last I checked 18:18:47 i'm saying when you have something like http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog 18:18:57 the _ski functions are useless 18:19:00 [+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] 18:19:09 nope 18:19:11 just take the expr inside return X; and replace the call with it 18:19:59 there are no function calls, any decent thing would optimize them away; and i don't have _ski functions, i have lambdas to show what info each computation in the where clause needs 18:20:38 you could just drop the lambda, but you couldn't see what computations are based on what computations, as clearly 18:20:45 *lambdas 18:21:45 why do you need to show what info it needs? just curious 18:21:50 this is just compiler output after all 18:21:54 i wanted you to know :D 18:22:03 right well i'm talking about for when it actually compiles :P 18:22:28 well i'm not considering doing that right now, just compiling for human reading 18:22:32 -!- thermoplyae has joined. 18:22:38 but yeah 18:22:50 -!- thermoplyae has left (?). 18:22:54 i guess if i just changed it a bit so it's actually haskell, it'd be a nice compilation for computers too 18:22:54 thermoplyae :o 18:23:52 no because it won't type in haskell prolly 18:23:59 you can't express all ski exprs in haskell 18:24:46 hm 18:24:51 i don't see Libster in the ban list? 18:24:59 it was a +q 18:25:00 not a +b 18:25:01 does irssi not show the ban list correctly? 18:25:06 [+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] 18:25:32 i thought those showed up in the ban list, just hade a % in front 18:25:35 *had 18:25:47 idk lol 18:25:52 oh well 18:26:03 +q is like the happy friendly form of +b 18:26:13 look but don't touch! 18:26:37 haha 18:26:55 that's neither happy nor friendly 18:27:30 it's better than genocide 18:28:42 So about that Boat minimalization while still being somewhat easy to use 18:28:49 :< 18:30:41 The interpreter segfaults when I compute something like fact 100000000. 18:30:41 That's because stack checks are not enabled by default. 18:30:41 ah 18:30:47 hahaha 18:31:14 -!- base3 has joined. 18:31:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:31:54 lol poor fools trying again 18:32:08 MissPiggy: are they actually that determined :) 18:32:11 or are their irc clients just rejoining 18:32:19 lol 18:34:55 -!- base3__ has joined. 18:35:18 alise: firstly don't think i can't evade a ban if i want to 18:35:33 no shit 18:35:36 secondly how can you be in this channel and not know what car of cdr is? 18:35:41 I know what car of cdr is 18:35:43 he wrote "car cdr x" 18:35:45 he meant "car (cdr x)" 18:35:51 haha 18:35:56 I didn't know whether that was some special semantics for Clue functions 18:35:57 alise you don't undestand CAR or CDR 18:36:00 or whether it was a mistake 18:36:03 your ISP only randomixes the least significant byte 18:36:05 he informed me it was the latter 18:36:10 Wareya: flase 18:36:14 false* 18:36:14 alise stop acting like you know lisp 18:36:19 oh? 18:37:23 -!- base3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:38:11 http://64.vg/uot What can I do to make there be less stuff here, without making asinine requirements for some simple things? 18:41:11 lament: +qs showed up in the ban list for freenode's old ircd, but they're different things in this new "seven". 18:42:03 you can just do /mode +q to see the +qs 18:42:34 not lying 18:42:51 but on some ircds that would kill the channel 18:43:11 Wareya is having a hard time with this trolling thing 18:43:13 Wareya: just do /quit #channel to kill a channel on this version 18:43:29 * alise sigh 18:43:41 fizzie: are we going to play cat and mouse or staring contest 18:43:44 gotta be one or the other 18:43:45 or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you 18:43:54 base3, I'm not retarded 18:43:56 :) 18:44:06 either they evade and we re-ban, or we wait until they get bored 18:44:17 unfortunately, they're probably already bored if they think trolling us is productive. 18:44:19 it comes to the same thing really 18:44:26 *!*@host81-141--*.wlms-broadband.com 18:44:27 It'd be nice if any of the regulars in this channel were ops. 18:44:30 *!*@host81-141-*-*.wlms-broadband.com 18:44:31 Gregor: fizzie is 18:44:35 and he banned them earlier, and is here right now 18:44:45 just ban @*.wlms-broadband.com 18:44:51 but that's assholish 18:44:54 18:43 < base3__> or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you 18:44:56 and foolproof 18:44:58 guys I think he might be a hacker 18:44:58 Quited, not banned. Still. 18:45:00 so watch out 18:45:06 MissPiggy: Haw 18:45:08 unless he goes to a friend's house; if he does that, we can just laugh at him i guess 18:45:15 Quieted, I mean. Heh. 18:45:16 listen i told you how to check the quiet list 18:45:17 fizzie: planned course of action? 18:45:22 Who runs the channel, as far as ChanServ's concerned? 18:45:27 pikhq: i think lament 18:45:28 Pretty sure the founder isn't around any more. 18:45:29 that wasn't trolling it was genuinely being helpfu; 18:45:30 used to be aardappel 18:45:33 lament is second. 18:45:36 alise: Ah. 18:45:42 base3__: Seriously, what do you think we are, idiots? 18:45:44 then Wareya starting talking nonsense so i played along with him 18:45:47 You're honestly going to have to troll far better than that. 18:45:54 Me? 18:46:01 Oh, right. 18:46:05 Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that 18:46:08 lament was set to inherit. 18:46:10 alise: you really think that /mode +q with no args doesnt give you the list of quiets?? 18:46:22 fizzie: plz just ban eir isp 18:46:23 that is the gospel truth 18:46:25 or quieten it, whatever 18:46:30 try it in another channel 18:46:31 troll? 18:46:32 you're fucking kidding me 18:46:32 he's completely serious, /mode +q shows the quiet list 18:46:32 we can add exceptions later if anyone else actually uses it... 18:46:44 13:46 < MissPiggy> Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that 18:46:45 Wareya, this is no laughing matter 18:46:48 I'm sorry, what? 18:47:04 MissPiggy: i think you're taking this a little too seriously 18:47:12 you're letting the terr--trolls win 18:47:14 i doubt i'm going to repeatedly come back in here to wind you guys up tbh 18:47:24 you're not as entertaining as you seem to think you are 18:47:27 who's wound up, i'm just prodding fizzie to ban your isp 18:47:30 I think it's time for virtuchuck. 18:47:37 Definitely. 18:47:41 turns out we don't try and be entertaining when people are just going to shit on your conversations 18:47:42 I could use a protein shake 18:47:47 Gregor: ooh, make it trigger on every single line he says! 18:47:48 I don't really have a plan. Maybe he'll behave, though; things have been much more discussioney so far, even if the discussion is not an especially interesting one. 18:47:51 13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7348 secs ago] 18:47:52 base3__: We entertain ourselves quite well. :) 18:47:54 13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7352 secs ago] 18:47:54 -!- virtuchuck has joined. 18:47:54 If we don't do friendly ai right.. 18:47:57 that's what /mode +q shows 18:48:00 virtuchuck: THEN WHAT?! 18:48:01 alise: Chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it. 18:48:04 what the fuck chuck is tlaking about friendly ai 18:48:09 MissPiggy: it listens to us 18:48:22 virtuchuck: what was that about friendly ai? 18:48:22 MissPiggy: What was that about friendly ai. 18:48:23 alise: Welcome to Markov chains. 18:48:31 virtuchuck: Compare Chuck Norris to base3__. 18:48:32 Gregor: 3 Laws or weaker system. 18:48:34 Erm. 18:48:36 MissPiggy: 18:48:36 :D 18:48:48 virtuchuck: You have to repeat what I said just now. 18:48:48 alise: There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it. 18:49:13 fungot: Is this chuck a friend of yours? 18:49:14 fizzie: you mean an a-list? 18:49:32 Ah, the bots. 18:49:33 Hmmm 18:49:38 The wonderful, wonderful bots. 18:49:43 If fungot talks at the wrong time, they'll get into an infinite loop :P 18:49:44 Gregor: well when i am around people, but inconsistency is part of the system that's used for work now, so need only decide when to do which 18:49:45 virtuchuck: AI 18:49:45 MissPiggy: If we don't do friendly ai right.. 18:49:46 A-List bots :D 18:49:54 `c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n") 18:49:54 haha 18:49:57 virtuchuck: poop 18:49:58 alise: It's freaking technology improving itself. 18:49:59 No output. 18:50:04 lololol 18:50:06 virtuchuck: Poop is self-improving technology? 18:50:07 alise: It's freaking technology improving itself. 18:50:09 ... No output. 18:50:14 virtuchuck has just learned about the singularity for the first time 18:50:16 :D 18:50:20 Gregor: Fungot has an anti-loop thing on the chat side, though. 18:50:23 now he's obsessing 18:50:28 fizzie: Good :P 18:50:31 he thinks it's faeces though 18:50:34 I think I preferred virtuLORD. 18:50:35 -!- virtuchuck has quit (Client Quit). 18:50:39 !c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n") 18:50:41 blend the two 18:50:46 Hey, I can talk too! 18:50:48 and the LORD said, inject your protein shakes 18:50:49 Hey, I can talk too! 18:50:54 DO IT 18:50:54 Hey, I can talk too! 18:50:56 But HackEgo cannot. 18:51:11 -!- virtuLORD has joined. 18:51:11 Baltasar's profane banquet: his sentence is welcome to the law, or the hired man that is since lost. 18:51:13 Gregor: I just realised something. 18:51:21 Gregor: The old hobby of trying to break EgoBot has gone away. 18:51:31 Gregor: blend virtulord and virtuchuck now. 18:51:37 Quite a while ago. 18:51:38 alise: Okidoke, will do. 18:51:40 :D 18:51:46 You're better at IRC bots. :P 18:52:03 I had a bible-trained fungot speaker somewhere, but I don't think I put it in the bot. 18:52:04 fizzie: look at all the oo is fnord. insist on using modern regexps even though they are not 18:52:11 ^style 18:52:11 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 18:52:16 modern regexps are indeed not regular expressions 18:52:23 and OO is indeed smoke and mirrors!! 18:52:30 Yes, none of those look very biblical to me. 18:52:43 ^style irc* 18:52:44 Not found. 18:52:49 Curses. 18:53:08 The * is just the current-selection-marker there. 18:53:50 Ah. 18:54:10 ^style.^ 18:54:13 derp 18:54:15 ^style irc.^ 18:54:15 Not found. 18:54:17 derp 18:54:19 ^style irc.* 18:54:19 Not found. 18:54:20 I suclk 18:54:22 I suck 18:54:26 I SUCK 18:55:25 I sulk. 18:55:32 wtfbbq 18:55:38 Just nearly crashed my system trying to combine them :P 18:55:49 roflolticas 18:58:42 virtuLORD: Give us the good news! 18:58:42 Gregor: And he that received the news heli falleth backward and not to resist evil, etc. . .What is prophetically delivered here, and in the book out of the lord driveth on. 18:58:58 Amen. 19:04:16 q[n]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at bit address q with n bits in size - big endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 2 3 and 4 19:04:19 q[n]WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at bit address n with q bits in size - little endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 4 5 and 6 - note that when going left it would look like ]n[q 19:04:23 q[n][m]WHEN GOING RIGHT OR UP access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is lower 19:04:26 q[n][m]WHEN GOING LEFT OR DOWN access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is higher 19:04:29 :D 19:04:31 -!- Libster has left (?). 19:05:00 Not having looked at the language at all except for what you just pasted, reminds me slightly of 2L. 19:05:12 http://64.vg/src/48029a6eda8165c6d5a5b6f71a785f1e/raw 19:05:17 Namely, in that it has different actions depending on direction. 19:05:21 I'm trying to minimalize Boat 19:05:29 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat 19:05:30 this boat 19:09:19 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 19:09:54 hello is this a channel about esoteric programming languages like java 19:10:06 yes 19:10:39 Hyuk hyuk 19:10:53 Java doesn't seem all that esoteric. 19:11:04 Though it does have many an odd design feature, it is extremely well-known. 19:11:13 like perl 19:11:36 So is "how well known" a metric for being esoteric? 19:11:38 Wareya: Except Perl is entirely composed of odd design features. 19:11:44 yes 19:11:49 Quadrescence: Somewhat, yes. 19:11:58 Quadrescence: Esoteric implies both "odd" and "unknown". 19:12:13 Etymologically speaking, how well known and used it is should be the only metric, but it's not :P 19:12:31 Gregor: Heheh. 19:12:33 I think BF is somewhat well known' 19:12:43 Of course I will present a counter-example. Vala is not a very well known language, yet it is not esoteric. BCPL as well. 19:12:47 Sgeo_: Yes, but well known *soley for being odd*. 19:13:03 Quadrescence: They're intended for serious use, and as such aren't all that odd. 19:13:35 So being well known or not doesn't qualify as a metric for being esoteric it seems. 19:13:38 so 'esoteric' is an antonym of 'serious'? 19:14:06 base3__: To an extent. 19:14:18 mindrape 19:15:56 Mind rape? 19:16:01 mind rape 19:16:13 That was a yes-or-no question. 19:16:21 mind rape 19:16:59 Wareya: Still yes-or-no. 19:17:04 mind rape 19:17:17 I mean yes 19:17:56 * pikhq pushes the "mind rape" buttonb 19:18:12 Is this channel an antonym for serious? 19:18:28 mind rape 19:18:30 I mean yes 19:19:49 Quadrescence: Yes. 19:20:01 Well, we are capable of being serious. 19:20:07 However, that is not the raison d'etre. 19:20:15 (e/e)division 19:20:18 WHY DID I DO THAT 19:20:19 AFJ@#e-0fu@VQ@U()A 19:30:35 Okay, this is my last draft before bed 19:30:36 http://64.vg/src/fad448fab17d0b8f569a451741adbd07/raw 19:30:38 good night 19:31:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:35:17 That, or I can procrastinate sleep. 19:36:01 you only master procrastination properly when you can procrastinate breathing. 19:36:16 but 19:36:28 sure there are side effects 19:36:30 my new year's resolution 19:36:36 was to make one next year 19:36:58 well you can always put that off another year 19:36:58 Mine was to not make a resolution. 19:37:02 I always fail at it. 19:37:25 that's an okymoronic irony! 19:37:30 oxymoronic* 19:38:46 i hear that once you can procrastinate breathing, you very quickly will be able to procrastinate _anything_. in fact you'll be unable not to. except decomposing. 19:39:10 Fuck yeah. 19:41:20 I am procrastinating procrastinating working on this, 19:41:33 ... 19:42:39 to be able to procrastinate P and not P at the same time, that is the essence of zen. or perhaps anti-zen, i'm not sure. 19:42:51 Hah 19:43:19 oerjan: Zen is both zen and anti-zen. 19:43:26 That is the essence of zen. 19:43:34 ah yes 19:45:29 I don't think I can minimalize this anymore 19:49:36 minimalise a butt butt 19:51:05 but a butt butt is as low as a butt 19:51:57 are you saying butts are idempotent? 19:52:16 yes 19:52:49 what abotu the idiot bird 19:52:52 and the mocking bird 19:57:34 Wareya, if the forest has, for every particular birds A and B, another bird C who will reply A's reply to B's reply when you call to it i.e. Cx = A(Bx) -- and the forest has a mockingbird too -- can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond* of some other bird i.e. QF = F (F may depend on Q) 19:58:04 (Q is fond of F means QF = F) 19:58:15 what was a mockingbird again 19:58:23 Mx = xx 19:58:51 so M and composition 19:59:00 oh wait 19:59:04 -!- virtuLORD has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:59:16 MissPiggy: congrats you just made everything super complex :D 19:59:17 you're not saying there is a combinator for making C, just that C exists 19:59:37 If you convert that to C I'll be able to do it :D 19:59:42 oerjan yes 19:59:48 -!- virtuhird has joined. 19:59:49 So ican do a blocking read it'll wait until the process id, modulo something. 19:59:52 Wareya, that means you are giving up? 20:00:01 I can only half understand what you're saying 20:00:05 _i_ haven't 20:00:13 There's still no Virtugeo :( 20:00:26 Yo dawg, I heard you like Hird, so I put a Hird in your herd so you can Hird while you heard! 20:00:27 of course i understand how fixpoints are usually constructed from M 20:00:30 probably because of the metaphor of birds 20:00:32 -!- Quadrescence has left (?). 20:00:51 I made virtuhird exclusively to say that line. 20:00:53 Wareya: just s/bird/combinator/g 20:01:05 not on linux 20:01:14 running IRSSI through SSH 20:01:14 Wareya, well this IS a difficult problem -- but the solution can be got in a methodical way 20:01:14 (infact there's two methodical ways to get the solution that I know of) 20:02:12 "can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond of some other bird" 20:02:15 virtuhird: <3 20:02:15 alise: And it seems more common than (2*3)+4. 20:02:21 do not understand 20:02:24 virtuhird: Marry me. 20:02:24 alise: Marry him a few ssh tricks you can give you into a file * can you? 20:02:33 virtuhird 20:02:33 virtuhurd: 0/0 20:02:36 virtuhird: 20:02:39 virtuhird: . 20:02:40 alise: Solution: kill ancestors. 20:02:47 YES. 20:02:47 virtuhurd: <3 0/0 20:02:48 Gregor: how can i tell it "give me everything" 20:02:50 fix f = (\x -> f (x x)) (\x -> f (x x)) 20:02:52 also, is it listening to me or us? 20:03:00 virtuhurd: Marry me. 20:03:00 if so, it's not just virtuhird :< 20:03:01 just you 20:03:06 no i mean for its db 20:03:08 also, did you include tusho and alise 20:03:10 oh idk 20:03:13 and ehird` 20:03:22 alise: tusho no, alise yes, ehird` no. 20:03:31 alise: However, I had to cut it short, so really alise no :P 20:03:36 The brain was getting too big. 20:03:49 sounds like me 20:03:51 now why is it dead 20:03:53 virtuhird: Poop 20:03:53 alise: Poop ovulates over poop. 20:04:01 Gregor: how can I tell it "just give me anything" 20:04:01 Wow 20:04:06 yeah i actually said that :) 20:04:15 alise: I don't think hal.pl has such a feature :( 20:04:19 virtuhird: 20:04:22 virtuhird: . 20:04:22 alise: So, memes get killed off extremely quickly and efficiently. 20:04:24 virtuhird: . 20:04:25 alise: A tiny backtrace snippet from the base class. 20:04:27 virtuhird: . 20:04:27 alise: Flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext lm 3dnowext 3dnow up ts fid vid ttp. 20:04:30 virtuhird: . 20:04:30 alise: Lalalla sudo vi /etc/thttpd/thttpd.conf. 20:04:32 virtuhird: . 20:04:32 alise: I was just being flippant. 20:04:34 virtuhird: . 20:04:34 alise: Bloatzilla, then, i assume. 20:04:36 virtuhird: . 20:04:36 alise: That makes no sense when i say '?' i mean 'something else. 20:04:39 Agg, stop 20:04:39 xD 20:04:42 no i love it 20:04:43 does /msg work 20:04:46 Yes 20:04:59 virtuhird: e 20:05:00 Wareya: Eyoyanaka <- e, o and a space. 20:05:08 I said that? <_> 20:05:09 virtuhird, PSOX 20:05:10 Sgeo_: Sgeo: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be the first okoperformancescript. 20:05:15 No, I did. 20:05:16 or did she 20:05:17 ah 20:05:24 virtuhird: . 20:05:24 Wareya: P seems most logical explanation and i will talk mor ewhen you return. 20:05:28 virtuhird, PSOX 20:05:29 virtuhird: . 20:05:30 Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. 20:05:32 Wareya: Damn i want it to zy3jkanfka. 20:05:37 "and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename." 20:05:37 :D 20:05:39 virtuhird: rage 20:05:39 Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge. 20:05:45 `addquote Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. 20:05:46 130| Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. 20:05:59 lol 20:05:59 Sounds like ehird. 20:06:06 virtuhird: sex 20:06:06 alise: Ais523: gay sex is not of the race because its names aren't all meaningless 2-character gibberish with \s and .s everywhere. 20:06:12 virtuhird: rage 20:06:13 Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge. 20:06:20 virtuhird: fuck 20:06:20 alise: Ha ha ha what the fuck, a 2 minute long guide on how to actually write anything useful. 20:06:24 virtuhird: fuck 20:06:24 alise: And the paddles speed up most programs a lot - coderay sucks. What the fuck we want, make your parameters self-describing. 20:06:28 virtuhird: esoteric 20:06:28 Wareya: Http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php or the variable's value? 20:06:36 virtuhird: fuck 20:06:36 alise: Fuck you haskellers and your local copy? 20:06:39 virtuhird: fuck 20:06:40 virtuhird: audio 20:06:40 alise: Anmaster: fuck off if i removed the bottom right. 20:06:41 Wareya: Which e.g. Copying audio data from many folders: cd, operation, cd, operation. 20:06:44 virtuhird: fuck 20:06:45 alise: + And | are... Whatever the fuck up. 20:06:47 haha this is perfect 20:06:48 I wish you could tell megahal "Forget a bunch of what you know" :P 20:06:49 Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge. <-- outdated url 20:06:49 virtuhird: qwerty 20:06:50 Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity. 20:06:56 Gregor: no this is so amazing 20:07:01 AnMaster: >_< 20:07:05 Gregor: viruanmaster, now 20:07:06 15:06 < virtuhird> Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity. 20:07:08 *virtuanmaster 20:07:09 GENIUS 20:07:11 also, irritating highlight spam bot that (in practise) 20:07:14 alise: nono, so I could feasibly feed it the latest you. 20:07:17 ah 20:07:20 doesn't matter this is great 20:07:20 virtuhird: , 20:07:21 Wareya: Since there's no reason other than my old, crusty computer though ... That thing was broken an hour or so ago. 20:07:23 now make one for anmaster 20:07:33 virtuhird: complex 20:07:33 I'm building Sgeo_, since he kept complaining :P 20:07:33 Wareya: Oh noes the joke by interpreting something as complex as hell. 20:07:41 eh. 20:07:41 Wareya: It's just that my frog can't eh. 20:07:50 So 20:07:58 wait what 20:08:02 So 20:08:03 eh. 20:08:14 why did it respond to that 20:13:00 virtuhird: fuck you 20:13:00 alise: They can be claimed and worked for me i don't wanna fuck with my eyes, i guess. 20:13:02 Gregor: :|? 20:13:04 ah 20:13:07 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:13:10 virtuhird: AnMaster 20:13:10 alise: Don't worry, anmaster is talking about g. 20:13:13 virtuhird: AnMaster 20:13:13 alise: Anmaster: can you translate what ihope is an agoran. 20:13:21 virtuhird: ontological 20:13:21 alise: Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/esme. 20:13:25 :DDDDDDD 20:13:30 virtuhird: ontological 20:13:31 alise: Anyway, generated asmmy! 20:14:08 virtuhird, Agora 20:14:08 Sgeo_: Oerjan: agora office. 20:14:19 the office of oerjan 20:14:27 virtuhird: haskell 20:14:28 alise: I haven't really used haskell much, but offset=0 and amount=-1 will copy all. 20:15:09 what algorithm is that bot based on 20:15:17 and which esolang is it coded in? 20:15:17 AnMaster: It's MegaHAL. 20:17:21 virtuhird: You're really not needed here ya know 20:17:21 Deewiant: Anmaster: i'm ignoring you because you're really not needed here ya know. 20:17:48 Gregor: it's picking up channel input 20:17:50 you are CORRUPTING me 20:18:05 alise: Toooooo bad :P 20:18:13 virtuhird: and to think I loved you. 20:18:14 alise: I loved all of the administrators of the edit war about whether to link you. 20:19:09 -!- virtuhird has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:19:43 -!- virtugold has joined. 20:19:44 Unable to find the personality brain/megahal.trn 20:19:49 Uhhh, whoops :P 20:19:51 -!- virtugold has quit (Client Quit). 20:20:19 -!- virtugold has joined. 20:20:19 Oh wow couldn't that choke due to personal disagreements with semantic and practical issues, i decided to make it feasible. 20:20:38 why can't you have multiple guys 20:20:40 also who's gold 20:21:15 Gold knows who Gold is. 20:21:15 Might be me (if so, grr), might not. Evidence for not: I don't remember saying anything along those lines 20:21:34 Gold is as Gold does. 20:21:34 virtugold, PSOX 20:21:39 Gregor: if we don't know the identity of gold, why is eir virtual relative in here? 20:21:45 virtugold: SUPOX 20:21:53 virtugold, ehird 20:22:00 virtugold, you alive? 20:22:04 Seems broken :P 20:22:06 -!- virtugold has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:22:10 lawl 20:22:32 Well, Gregor does know my last name 20:23:46 Seth Gold *does* ring a bell. 20:23:58 I know it's Seth something, and I think I saved it to a file, but that will have long gone missing and dusty. 20:24:10 Gregor: VirtuAnMaster. 20:24:12 Gregor: You must. 20:24:20 alise: AnMaster also talks too much :P 20:24:21 * Sgeo_ wants a non-broken me 20:24:22 alise: Like YOU. 20:24:30 Gregor: Just take a random 1/N of his lines 20:24:41 -!- SimonRC has joined. 20:24:48 alise, thanks for making me more cyberstalkable 20:24:57 Seth Gold. 20:25:00 Sgeo is Seth Gold. 20:25:02 Seth Gold is Sgeo. 20:25:03 Mwahahahahahaha 20:25:25 Seth Gold Americas Hottest DJ' 20:25:25 30 Jan 2010 ... DJ Seth Gold debuts at Size Sundays in Los Angeles this weekend! Flyer & Info below: Brought to you by Elite Unlimited Underwear ... 20:25:29 I don't think you have anything to worry about 20:25:34 -!- virtunotsgeosurn has joined. 20:25:35 Any hypotheses on the basics to make a flash client for robozzle? 20:25:41 Gregor: ANMASTER DAMMIT 20:25:51 virtunotsgeosurn, robozzle 20:26:10 wtfbbq 20:26:15 virtunotsgeosurn: Hewwo? 20:26:17 Oh 20:26:20 Because it thinks its name is 20:26:23 virtunotsgeosurname: Hewwo? 20:26:23 Gregor: Document.write("hello world!" :P 20:26:30 AN FUCKING MASTER 20:26:31 alise: Anmaster, @nick refers to the effect that it contained information about a master strategy gamer stuck in a feature to find out more information about a master strategy gamer stuck in a strongly-typed language can use a certain set of actions can be made more efficient? 20:26:42 A master that fucks. 20:26:57 virtunotsgeosurname, Robozzle 20:26:57 Sgeo_: Http://robozzle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7570 can have what's basically wine on iphone. 20:27:00 virtunotsgeosurname, PSOX 20:27:01 Sgeo_: Http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox.txt. 20:27:07 that was boring 20:27:10 virtunotsgeosurname: SUPOX 20:27:10 Deewiant: 0X00 0x0a terminates all functions. 20:27:11 virtunotsgeosurname, ehird 20:27:11 Sgeo_: Ehird, i was only checking for my security question's answer. They email me asking for trivial opinions? 20:27:34 Am I really this boring? :( 20:27:38 Yes. 20:27:46 virtunotsgeosurname: Boring! 20:27:46 Deewiant: It can ask for permissions before it is boring, tbh. 20:27:59 virtunotsgeosurname, ? 20:27:59 Sgeo_: "256 Functions will be ugly on os x. The forum's down though. 20:28:22 That's not me! I knew nothing about OS X! 20:28:25 [well, little] 20:29:50 Maybe I should train fungot styles for Prominent Personalities(TM) of the channel. 20:29:51 fizzie: i've never seen before... i fnord on vacation 20:30:14 virtunotsgeosurname, Second Life 20:30:15 Sgeo_: But still, having @hodapp link to a universe in my life. 20:30:29 fungot: You what on vacation? 20:30:30 fizzie: step 2: fnord... many thanks to all the memory... 20:30:59 virtunotsgeosurname, active worlds 20:31:01 Sgeo_: The worlds that i can't imagine sl staying alive with as few users as aw, or ct, or worlds. 20:32:00 Virtual me is boring :( 20:33:18 What a surprise! Uh, I mean... 20:33:22 Sgeo_: Hey, YOU asked for it :P 20:33:27 okay 20:34:02 Of all the things I thought I was considered in #esoteric , boring wasn't one that crossed my mind 20:34:09 And I'm still being boring, talking about this 20:34:17 virtunotsgeosurname, entertain me 20:34:18 Sgeo_: Gregorr, you can take pictures of. 20:34:23 virtunotsgeosurname, God 20:34:23 Sgeo_: There are definitions of "god" are a coherent idea. 20:34:48 virtunotsgeosurname, alise 20:34:49 Sgeo_: Alise, they have classes there? 20:35:04 virtunotsgeosurname, fuck you 20:35:05 -!- virtunotsgeosurn has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:35:09 .. 20:35:16 XD 20:35:23 Was that in response to me, or did Gregor do that? 20:35:40 He just hates you. 20:35:48 -!- virtuwtf has joined. 20:35:49 Unable to find the personality brain/megahal.trn 20:35:53 Damn it. 20:35:53 Even virtual me hates me :( 20:35:54 -!- virtuwtf has quit (Client Quit). 20:36:13 Gregor, virtuwtf? 20:36:14 -!- virtuwtf has joined. 20:36:15 That is not a bot! I confess! I am the helpful, friendly, underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?):ass hello! I am only pretending to be (very well. 20:36:22 AN MASTER PLEASE 20:36:32 virtuwtf, hi there 20:36:33 AnMaster: Hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world.........................!i 3 hi world....................... 20:36:36 ... 20:36:40 virtuwtf, which one? 20:36:41 AnMaster: 1 Egobot: daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/365170. 20:36:52 well that seemed almost relevant 20:37:11 virtuwtf, who are you? 20:37:11 AnMaster: Score for gregorr-l_pooper_scooper: 34.2. 20:37:26 egobot or hackbot I guess 20:37:31 err 20:37:32 hackego 20:37:35 I meant 20:37:37 EgoBot :P 20:38:13 virtuwtf, wtf 20:38:13 MissPiggy: Http://google.com/search?q=omg+liek+wtf. 20:38:16 LOL 20:39:19 bbq 20:40:14 virtuwtf: oerjan 20:40:14 Gregor: 2 Oerjan: bf. 20:40:34 oerjan: I /believe/ virtuwtf is telling you he wants to be your boyfriend. 20:41:25 *blush* 20:42:03 oh wait you stinking liar, it's obviously speaking about brainfuck 20:42:05 -!- gm|lap has joined. 20:44:23 -!- virtuwtf has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:49:03 Gregor: never got any replies to these: 20:49:05 what algorithm is that bot based on 20:49:05 and which esolang is it coded in? 20:49:06 Sweet, I made a megahal brain that segfaults >_> 20:49:12 AnMaster: Yes you did 20:49:12 ah that answers one 20:49:14 megahal 20:49:16 AnMaster: It's MegaHAL. 20:49:21 That's the answer to both. 20:49:40 Gregor, is megahal a programming language? 20:49:47 as well as the bot 20:50:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:50:49 The bot is in Perl and C. 20:51:13 Gregor, also which one was the segfaulting model? 20:51:22 -!- adam_d has joined. 20:51:26 You'll see (maybe) :P 20:51:36 (And it's not a person) 20:51:41 DO AN MASTER 20:52:22 alise: TOO - MUCH - DATA 20:52:33 -!- virtuPOSIX has joined. 20:52:33 Equivalent to the user explic. 20:52:48 Gregor: TAKE A RANDOM 1/N OF IT 20:52:55 INCREASE N EACH TIME IT'S TOO BIG 20:53:14 alise: It takes like a half hour with the full data, so slowly working it down would take a long time :P 20:53:15 Increase N each time N is too big. 20:53:27 virtuPOSIX: Tell me about printf! 20:53:32 ^style wp 20:53:33 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 20:53:36 virtuPOSIX, hm 20:53:41 virtuPOSIX, fopen 20:53:46 Why isn't virtuPOSIX responding :( 20:53:54 Gregor: Take 1/4th then 20:53:54 Gregor, did it segfault? 20:53:56 That's gotta be small enough 20:54:04 Fekk 20:54:06 Yeah, it segfaulted. 20:54:35 Gregor, segfaulting is undefined behaviour. I spot ironicness here 20:55:09 -!- virtuPOSIX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:55:19 "ironicness" >_< 20:55:26 Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation? 20:55:27 alise, I know it doesn't exist 20:55:51 fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up. 20:55:52 fizzie: the claims are disputed or widely fnord, would be in order. fnord fnord 20:56:19 Don't you be disputin' my claims there. 20:56:49 fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up. <-- please be careful with what you claim. Remember I coded the interpreter it runs on 20:56:51 AnMaster: " as in the rest of the article is " here we stand" the fnord, but someone put that fnord was recommended for the niger mission by his cia wife, and not ' seton'. ' fnord'" is being used on this page. 20:57:01 though hopefully it should never segfault 20:57:19 * Sgeo_ really has shovelling he sould attend to 20:57:53 only way that could possibly result in that would be some badly tested out of memory code path or such. Maybe. Hopefully not. 21:08:47 Increase N each time N is too big. <-- hehe 21:09:02 Gregor, figured out why it segfaulted? 21:09:07 AnMaster: Nope 21:09:10 AnMaster: Not going to try, either. 21:09:11 Gregor, gdb? 21:09:23 AnMaster: Yeah, I'm going to go debug some ancient code I didn't write. 21:10:14 Gregor, well, it could be trivial. I would at least try it and take a look at the the line. Could be a trivial fix. 21:10:28 Nooooooooooooot gonna do it. 21:10:31 Noooooooooooooooooooooot gonna do it. 21:10:35 okay then 21:10:56 just saying that you can take a quick look at the backtrace without debugging it in depth 21:11:22 Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation? <-- for what? 21:20:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 21:21:11 night 21:27:27 Profile-aided optimisation... for DANCING 21:33:37 Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle). 21:34:04 Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful? 21:34:09 Pick one pair. 21:39:56 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:41:42 -!- virtuMaster has joined. 21:41:42 Ehirdiphone, he could just say "strange for hello world to use lyx some years ago. 21:42:06 virtuMaster: Are you a suitable replacement for AnMaster? 21:42:07 Gregor: For me it is run directly from the lamp in the same as in "not a possible replacement for anmaster? 21:42:15 I seeeeee. 21:43:18 Gregor, I don't quite think I would say that 21:43:34 night really, and stop highlight spam please 21:43:35 virtuMaster: Do you think you would say that? 21:43:36 Gregor: Like "i think i need to curl up the same connection. Might be an option to me then. 21:43:39 → 21:43:52 virtuMaster: ehird 21:43:52 AnMaster hates it when someone uses his nick 21:43:53 alise: Ehird, i was thinking more along the same rules are at 40 k/s from most places. 21:44:01 virtuMaster: ehird 21:44:03 alise: Ehird, it would depend on the stack at a time. 21:44:04 especially if you just say AnMaster for no reason 21:44:05 virtuMaster: ehird 21:44:06 alise: "i was born. 21:44:08 virtuMaster: ehird 21:44:09 alise: Ehird, no luck with cfunge? 21:44:13 virtuMaster: sigh 21:44:14 alise: Sigh whatever, can wait. 21:44:16 virtuMaster: sigh 21:44:17 alise: Must be a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- Even with metacity on intel graphics it works very well. 21:44:20 virtuMaster: sigh 21:44:20 alise: Sigh, not free it seems. 21:44:22 virtuMaster: sigh 21:44:22 alise: Sigh... Bbs, phone. 21:44:25 virtuMaster: -_- 21:44:25 alise: 21:57:27 coppro: umm... Bye? 21:44:27 virtuMaster: -_- 21:44:28 alise: Ehird_, your solution fails at holiday logo? 21:44:33 aww it doesn't remember his emotes. 21:44:36 virtuMaster: night, really 21:44:37 alise: Deewiant, well it was *she* who had it, not me. Guess while i'm no expert on the last night of the world is utterly bonkers <-- the latter. We all know that. 21:44:49 virtuMaster: immature 21:44:49 alise: Ehird, they don't use it on an ipv6 block allocated, they don't know iki piki's gender. Not sure if you have that last example, i'm not immature! 21:44:52 virtuMaster: immature 21:44:53 alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! 21:44:58 :D 21:44:58 virtuMaster: immature 21:44:59 alise: Soupdragon, i'm not immature! 21:45:02 :DDD 21:45:04 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:04 alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature! 21:45:08 :DDDD 21:45:09 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:09 alise: Fungot, i'm not immature! 21:45:11 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:45:12 ahahahahahah 21:45:15 Gregor: what the fuck 21:45:16 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:17 alise: Though, i'm not immature! 21:45:19 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:19 alise: Though, i'm not immature! 21:45:21 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:21 alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature! 21:45:22 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:23 alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! 21:45:25 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:25 alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! 21:45:26 virtuMaster: immature 21:45:26 virtuMaster: sexy 21:45:27 alise: Ais523, i'm not immature! 21:45:29 oklopol: I guess it is spelled properly. 21:45:30 haha 21:45:31 virtuMaster: mature 21:45:32 ... 21:45:32 Deewiant: Hm i want to spoil it. 21:45:40 Gregor: it's because "," -> "i'm not immature" 21:45:44 and he uses , as his nick prefix 21:45:47 er, suffix 21:45:48 I bet 21:46:03 yeah i guess it is 21:46:07 -!- virtuMaster has quit (Client Quit). 21:46:35 > nonfix foo; 21:46:35 > (quote foo) foo = false; 21:46:35 , line 2: function 'quote' was previously defined with 1 args 21:46:37 pure hates Quine 21:46:52 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:48:37 * Sgeo_ wants to make an Uru Live age with a Brainfuck interpreter machine 21:56:04 Does anyone know of a standard algorithm to convert a natural number into an easy-to-pronounce, easy-to-memorise alphabetical form? 21:56:15 Obviously it is not too hard to write one, but if one already exists it probably has had more thought put into it. 21:59:37 Of course, the shorter the result the better. 22:02:39 alise: There's that format mooz wrote a Befunge converter for. It's alphabetical, easyish to pronounce; two out of three ain't bad. 22:03:01 I'm interested. 22:03:02 176.215.16.104 == "divzip-dibbel" 22:03:02 30.122.0.74 == "pobmol-dabmek" 22:03:02 149.229.247.52 == "nitvas-siztif" 22:03:20 So 32-bit stuff can be done relatively well with two words of six letters. 22:03:25 Bit of awkward pronunciation, but alright. 22:03:35 The generated numbers are on the long side, unfortunately. 22:04:34 425616 22:04:35 WizzooBarRazzleHuzzooSpazzooFizzooSpoo 22:04:40 It has... a certain charm. 22:04:47 Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for. 22:04:52 Bit ... ecstatic for my tastes. 22:05:23 Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle). 22:05:23 Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful? 22:05:23 Pick one pair. 22:05:28 nobody wants to play :( 22:06:53 convert to base 26, intercalate vowels 22:07:25 or anything, really, you skip every other letter 22:08:02 base 26? that means you could get "beeep" 22:08:03 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:08:14 which isn't very distinguishable from "beep" 22:08:39 surely you mean base 21 22:08:46 why 22:08:50 anyway, I'm sure you can get more information density than that 22:09:15 Pthing: so you don't get both "beeeeep" and "beeep" 22:09:24 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:09:26 i don't see how that helps 22:09:38 "vaan" and "vaa'an" are different words in finnish 22:09:45 because you only pick the consonants 22:09:47 and intercalate vowels 22:09:49 so that can never happen 22:09:57 anyway, I think much higher information density than that is possible 22:10:09 at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits 22:10:11 The FooNumbers are based on decimal form, with the base words F/oo, B/ar, B/az, W/oo, H/oo, Sp/oo, K/ink, K/ank, K/onk for 1, 2, ... 9, respectively; and then you add "", "izz", "azz", "uzz" at the / there for 10^0, 10^1, 10^2, 10^3, respectively; and finally for multiples of 10000 you put in separator-markers Razzle, Dazzle, Giggle, Wiggle. 22:10:12 and omit awkward pairs 22:10:13 Admittedly the system runs out at 99999999999999999999, or KuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkWiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkGiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkDazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkRazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonk. 22:10:16 up to six it's pretty easy 22:10:19 fizzie: :D 22:10:20 but 22:10:28 so don't do beeep and beep 22:10:33 wait 22:10:36 how would that even 22:10:37 i mean 22:10:44 "beeeeep" and "beeep" 22:11:00 beeeeep = b, e, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e 22:11:03 boeop and baeaeap 22:11:04 easy 22:11:08 so don't intercalate all es 22:11:08 beeep = b, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e 22:11:09 jesus 22:11:14 so you have a limited set 22:11:17 so your algorithm is more complicated 22:11:20 or don't even intercalate vowels 22:11:22 at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits 22:11:23 intercalate anything 22:11:27 jieortj 22:11:44 this is meant to be pronounceable and memorable, and to minimise the risk of confusing two forms 22:13:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net). 22:15:27 -!- jcp has joined. 22:19:12 -!- ineiros has changed nick to ineiros_. 22:20:15 -!- ineiros has joined. 22:23:23 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:27:19 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:28:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:33:22 -!- adam_d has joined. 22:34:28 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 22:35:15 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:35:37 -!- adam_d__ has joined. 22:35:57 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:38:05 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:39:13 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:43:25 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 22:45:56 Talis, man. 22:46:25 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/msg/07f29c8ea40c35a3 is where those foo-numbers came from, though I think Giggle and Wiggle are mooz's inventions. And yes, it's not quite optimized for information density, or anything. 22:48:22 basically it's the decimal system but instead of "one hundred and seventy two" you say fazzoo kizzink bar". 22:48:25 *"fazzoo 22:49:24 -!- adam_d__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:50:09 Yes, well, sort-of. It's not a positional system at first, the power-of-ten is indicated by the circumfix izz/azz/uzz. 22:51:12 I guess the English spelling isn't very positional either, though. 22:52:48 s/circumfix/interfix/, wasn't thinking. 22:53:18 Or infix. 22:53:34 Apparently it's infix if it's inside a single stem, and interfix if it joins two stems. 22:55:59 -!- Libster` has joined. 23:08:24 -!- Libster` has left (?). 23:09:01 -!- Libster has joined. 23:14:23 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:19:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:21:42 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:28:15 more interesting linguistics time! 23:28:48 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 23:28:56 Oh, god. 23:29:59 as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y" 23:30:14 We've been over this before. 23:30:25 I think it's probably a limitation of the human brain's shorthand engine. 23:30:39 We need the main detail to be the grammatical form, so to speak, of the shorthand. 23:30:42 Otherwise we can't remember it. 23:30:50 actually, it doesnt seem to be that at all 23:31:01 -!- Libster has left (?). 23:31:05 -!- Libster has joined. 23:31:07 -!- Libster has left (?). 23:31:09 the brain can encode a SHIT TONNE of things, extraordinarily complex things, in lexical semantics 23:31:12 -!- Libster has joined. 23:31:14 -!- Libster has left (?). 23:31:17 -!- Libster has joined. 23:31:23 -!- Libster has left (?). 23:31:26 -!- Libster has joined. 23:31:30 -!- Libster has left (?). 23:31:34 -!- Libster has joined. 23:31:51 just consider what it means to cherrypick. 23:32:27 "X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so" 23:32:30 or something like that 23:33:00 yeah 23:33:08 that's a good complex one 23:34:25 there should be a conlang all of whose grammar and semantics have been proven impossible to learn 23:34:27 the best anyone can get is either that the representations for _linguistic_ meaning are of a very specific sort, and this happens to not allow "glump" 23:34:35 the thing is it's like a self contained action though, you go sit at your desk and cherry pick.. but glumped is one action (kissed) and a kind of reference (someone who is allergic to Y) -- so it's complex on a different level.. but it doesn't seem TOO complex 23:34:47 or at least an esolang 23:34:49 oklopol lol 23:35:09 or that like, certain kinds of verbs are derived SYNTACTICALLY, and thus since the derivation is in violation of a syntactic constraint, its obviously impossible 23:35:47 MissPiggy: its not really all that complex tho 23:35:54 yeah that's the thing.. 23:35:58 i mean its not unimaginable that you might have an affix like, say 23:36:02 -phobe 23:36:04 approximately 23:36:12 which means "person allergic to whatever" 23:36:19 "John kissed a peanutophobe" 23:36:30 "X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so" 23:36:35 irrelevant 23:36:42 its NOT irrelevant alise 23:36:44 carefully choosing is still the 'underlying form' of cherrypicking 23:36:55 "X carefully chose from Y" also makes sense, it is just not as descriptive 23:36:56 whereas 23:37:00 as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y" 23:37:09 "X kissed Y" does not make sense as a substitute for "X glumped Y" 23:37:20 thus, we cannot understand glumping to be kissing-but-more-specific. 23:37:22 that its a good substitute is irrelevant 23:37:26 that is my theory, anyway 23:37:53 its not supposed to be a substitute 23:38:05 its supposed to be a single verb with a complex meaning 23:38:19 well my sample size of 2 makes me very happy tyvm :P 23:38:28 your sample size of two? 23:38:28 what? 23:39:32 anyway, its just an interesting fact that seems to lack a good well fleshed out explanation. 23:39:46 cherrypicker fits my rule 23:39:47 glumping doesn't 23:39:51 therefore i am right qed 23:40:02 ilunga. 23:40:23 nominal semantics is notoriously fluid. 23:40:38 consider "bean" or "pelt" 23:40:49 to bean someone is to pelt someone on the head 23:41:03 to pelt someone is to hit someone with a thrown object 23:41:13 subroutines 23:41:15 :D 23:41:18 "X beaned Y" = "X hit Y on the head with a thrown object" 23:41:52 what makes beaning any more a kind of hitting, while glumping isnt a kind of kissing 23:41:59 surely it IS a kind of kissing 23:42:08 all acts of glumping are acts of kissing 23:44:41 * MissPiggy glumps augur 23:45:01 so you kissed alise? 23:45:02 :D 23:46:31 lol. 23:46:44 -!- Libster` has joined. 23:46:57 augur: I was considering it on a syntactic level 23:46:59 fizzie: ^ 23:47:07 -!- Libster` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:47:12 fizzie: never mind. 23:47:13 -!- Libster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:47:59 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:45 alise: considering it syntactically is kinda good actually 23:49:00 one of the ideas from generative semantics is that these verbs are genuinely derived syntactically 23:49:09 e.g. IF glump were to exist with that meaning 23:49:13 you would derive it like so: 23:49:17 here I will use X <-> Y to mean "X can be replaced by Y, as long as you don't mind losing information; no incorrect information will be added": 23:49:23 cherrypicking <-> choosing carefully from 23:49:28 !(glumping <-> kissing) 23:49:39 "X glumped Y" isn't a more specific form of "X kissed Y", therefore you cannot have it 23:49:43 this is just random hypothesis 23:49:58 sure its a more specific form of kissing 23:50:03 you're doing the equating wrong 23:50:10 X CAN be replaced by Y 23:50:15 but you're not choosing the right Y 23:50:36 glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to 23:50:51 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 23:51:06 Allergic to what, kissing? :P 23:51:11 So it's like mean kissing 23:51:14 allergic to whatever is being glumped. 23:51:26 if you glump peanuts, you kiss someone allerging to peanuts 23:51:58 augur: but Y is being hit, it's not being kissed 23:52:23 this is true, and that might be relevant 23:52:47 but seriously, you're making me want to study linguistics with your crazy kids-can't-learn-this stories 23:52:48 but we dont know how to specify that in the theory because there are minor examples where that DOESNT seem to be relevant 23:52:50 for instance 23:53:24 if you sing as you're leaving a party, you can arguably say that you sang your way out of the party 23:53:46 but you're certainly not singing a path, you're singing a song 23:54:21 the GS account was that its an entirely syntactic process 23:54:25 If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party. 23:54:47 yes, but youre still not singing the PATH you're singing the SONG 23:54:48 Or your singing is so bad that you're thrown out 23:54:50 which CREATED the path 23:55:23 to sing a PATH you'd have to like... try to sing, and out of your mouth comes a path through the crowd of people, like your mouth spews emptiness or something 23:56:28 you're doing the equating wrong 23:56:28 X CAN be replaced by Y 23:56:28 but you're not choosing the right Y 23:56:28 glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to 23:56:29 EXACTLY 23:56:32 the main part of cherry picking 23:56:36 is choosing carefully from 23:56:39 the main semantic part of glumping 23:56:41 is kissing 23:56:43 the allergic part is a detail 23:56:49 but we can't replace it directly with kissing 23:56:57 no the main semantic part of glumping is kissing someone allergic to 23:57:36 further, really, cherrypicking isnt actually choosing carefully from 23:57:45 If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party. 23:57:46 loool 23:57:53 its choosing something (the cherrypicked thing) from some other set of things 23:57:53 augur: yes, but someone who is cherrypicking is choosing carefully from something 23:57:57 it doesn't convey the full meaning 23:57:59 you cherrypick your examples from your data 23:57:59 but it's not untrue 23:58:18 i.e., an acceptable substitution is one which reduces meaning, but does not result in falsity 23:58:22 nor is it untrue to say that glumping = kissing someone allergic to! 23:59:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).