< 1265760033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If a TM that ignores its input is "computationally trivial", are all lambda terms "computationally trivial" as well? < 1265760064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: to be honest i don't know that i've ever seen a clear and unambiguous definition of turing-completeness once you go beyond languages of strings. the wikipedia article is certainly not one. < 1265760103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Turing-equivalent with a Turing machine? < 1265760108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but based on other subjects i've read, i.e. complexity theory, my intuition says it is all about _reductions_ from one notion of computation to another < 1265760109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The Wikipedia page on Turing degrees is a bit better. < 1265760139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(P and Q are said to be Turing-equivalent if one can simulate P with Q and Q with P.) < 1265760176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but that sentence completely ignores the very I/O question which in my view is the reason for the confusing discussion i and cpressey are now having < 1265760194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not a _mathematical_ definition < 1265760196 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I quite agree. But the literature on reductions doesn't seem to say what to do with input. I'm sure I can map every TM to (some L program, some input). I'm equally sure I can't map every TM to (some L program). < 1265760226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Clearly one can simply consider input and output as two one-way tapes. Help at all? < 1265760280 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/map/find a TM which maps/ (Turing-reduction) < 1265760283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the thing is that most things you are reducing, such as NP-complete problems, don't have a program part. you are reducing input to input < 1265760304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a graph to a boolean expression < 1265760421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for hamiltonian circuit -> SAT, e.g.) < 1265760431 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but from what I know, the "-complete" in "NP-complete" was adapted from the "-complete" in "Turing-complete" (polytime reductions instead of Turing reductions.) < 1265760445 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway -- for the sake of argument say L is Turing-complete < 1265760463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the original question you answered is put into context < 1265760466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and the RE theory simplifies everything to the bone by only using sets of _integers_ < 1265760483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ais523: Then what would you call the property "I can map any Turing-machine to a (meaningfully different) program in this language"? < 1265760515 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265760519 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Again, I don't care too much about encoding -- unless you think there's something critical about it < 1265760586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well it's critical for quines, which is where my first comment took inspiration. but ok, as long as program and input are encoded separately it doesn't matter for this discussion. < 1265760598 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That property is a property L doesn't have, and isn't necessary for TC (if L is TC), but a lot of languages DO have. And it doesn't seem to have a name, beyond it's working title "property 2" < 1265760647 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah i just remembered. look at the wiki's Narcissist page. < 1265760655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does meaningfully different mean? < 1265760663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a notion dual to quine, with input instead < 1265760686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: accepts only itself? < 1265760692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Well, different beyond simply renaming variable names or something trivial like that. Not a very well defined condition, I agree. < 1265760720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah still just a matter of cardinalities, in mathematical terms < 1265760746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and then i can ask you, is your property essential for the _existence_ of narcissists, like the "output-complete" idea is for the existence of quines? < 1265760776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hm. < 1265760779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(guaranteed existence from fundamental concepts, that is) < 1265760782 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265760800 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I have no idea right now. < 1265760824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is too complicated, let's talk about flowers < 1265760834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i know even less about those < 1265760856 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite is Cauliflower. < 1265760897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you flow, are you a flower? < 1265760906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: did you know that is the same species as brussels sprouts? < 1265760912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ducks
< 1265760935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are both called "kaali" in finnish < 1265760936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that ducks were the same species as geese? < 1265760966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In my head, fluttering half-memories of the "every TC language has a quine" proof... are you suggesting "Every property 2 [sigh] language has a narcissist" as a kind of dual to it? < 1265761069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1265761085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it sounds likely. < 1265761093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i've thought much about it, it was just a spur of the moment idea < 1265761104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brain... melting... < 1265761137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that "every TC language has a quine" is not precisely correct, which is why we invented the notion of output-completeness in that discussion. < 1265761152 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1265761202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there is that fixpoint thing going on. There would be a fixpoint "the other way". Since all TMs can be mapped to this language, there must be one program that maps to a Narcissist. Something like that. < 1265761283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you it's not very different from a quine in practice, come to think of it. you just slap an == input instead of a print on your program self-construction string. < 1265761323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course this if you are in a language which has both sensible input and output < 1265761373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/instead of a/inside of the/ < 1265761419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1265761468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rereads the article - oh it was your idea
< 1265761560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see there's something called a "selfinterp" on Madore's page, but it looks to be a slightly different concept. < 1265761675 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I have to be off, with head spinning. < 1265761680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1265761690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html < 1265761698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265761715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html#sec_selfint < 1265761794 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugggh < 1265761801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265761804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1265761807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1265761812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265762338 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who's good at math < 1265762342 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've a math question < 1265762350 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of math < 1265762353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly math < 1265762376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you have a bunch of opponents < 1265762387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them has probability P of winning against a random other opponent < 1265762391 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one has probability Q < 1265762403 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a guess about how they would do against each other! < 1265762417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like untransitive dice? < 1265762431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265762456 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense that if P == Q, then the guess ought to be 0.5 < 1265762465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since we have no other information) < 1265762475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P > Q, then the guess should be > 0.5 < 1265762486 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P == 1 then the guess should of course be 1 < 1265762499 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P and Q are both 1 then we're kinda screwed < 1265762504 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that cannot happen) < 1265762562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would bet on the one that has a bigger probability for winning against a random opponent. < 1265762578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1265762591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right, me too < 1265762597 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the question is that there's say a set of people {P}u{Q}uEveryoneElse, < 1265762601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you quantify your guess, other than just 1 or 0? < 1265762626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's the probabilities for P winning against {Q}uEveryoneElse, (and similiar for Q) < 1265762630 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P is 0 or if Q is 1, the guess is 0 < 1265762634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait this is a famous annoying problem, isn't it < 1265762636 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P is 1 or Q is 0, the guess is 1 < 1265762648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P == Q, the guess is 0.5 < 1265762654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just got this deja vu feeling
< 1265762662 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if P is like 1/4 and Q is like 3/4 ? < 1265762677 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: really? I'd like to know < 1265762681 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament well I don't think there is an answer ? < 1265762694 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there isn't an answer, but you can definitely make a guess! < 1265762698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's just a slight resemblance. i cannot remember what it was anyhow. < 1265762710 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK, the probabilites can't be calculated based on info given... I think its possible that P > Q, but when they go against each other, the one with prob Q wins more than loses... < 1265762718 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, probabilities can't be calculated. < 1265762722 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i keep saying guess. < 1265762750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose the way to formalize is would be by trying to minimize the differences between our guesses over all opponents, compared to the real probabilities < 1265762784 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only condition for the guess is that it can't use any other information than the values P and Q < 1265762786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, you could have a bunch of people playing rock/paper/scissors somehow always choosing the same thing < 1265762786 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best guess estimate: P / (P + Q) for that with prob P, Q / (P + Q) for that with prob Q. < 1265762802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still have just about any set of probabilities for the group < 1265762817 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(er, for two members of the group) < 1265762849 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability is really confusing < 1265762852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: hm, maybe that's it < 1265762870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't look right < 1265762876 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g < 1265762877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it adds to 1 :D < 1265762881 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P = 0.2, Q = 0.8 < 1265762892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then P/(P+Q) is 0.2 < 1265762910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd expect it to be less < 1265762949 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess one way to approach this is to assume that probabilities actually are transitive. < 1265762958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's not a true < 1265762987 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't even know how to assume that :( < 1265763020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we make all possible orderings for a set of length n, and for each ordering calculate (the ways for someone who wins p of the matches to win someone who wins q of the matches) / (all such pairs), take average and let n --> infinity < 1265763022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the average of all probabilities has to be 0.5 i think < 1265763036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why wouldn't the probability be well-defined? < 1265763100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can clearly feel, using your heart, that the limit exists < 1265763133 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it makes sense to model it like this: < 1265763134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the probability could depend greatly on the game played < 1265763140 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our 'random opponent' is the number 1 < 1265763166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, each player's favorite strategy could have really complicated behavior when paired against others < 1265763169 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our known opponents are random numbers chosen from an interval (0,x) such that the probability of the number being larger than 1 is P < 1265763182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but if we assume the orderings are random < 1265763193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so that x = 1/p) < 1265763218 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the guess is that a random number from (0,1/p) is greather than the one from (0,1/q) < 1265763227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*greater < 1265763231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the thing is, for a start, two players' chance of winning against each other could be nonlinear in some "skill" < 1265763234 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that makes sense < 1265763276 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point anyway, if yo uhave a probability doesn't even tell you what's going to happen < 1265763286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i suspect you could get a lot of different functions of p and q dependent on this < 1265763291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION existential crisis'
< 1265763296 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's a best guess. It's a prior. < 1265763298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i assume complete nonlinearity, i assume that for all pairs, it's completely random who wins. < 1265763305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a prior? < 1265763306 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if there is such skill, one would have to model it... < 1265763312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it came from priors < 1265763340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh then it's 0.5 for each pair? but then all the p's and q's are 0.5 too, sorry. < 1265763357 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he meant the probability is random for each pair < 1265763365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? i'm assuming a finite universe < 1265763369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n players < 1265763381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you are saying p and q are the actual number of games won < 1265763386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265763397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ok you are interpreting p and q completely different from me then < 1265763399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of players they win out of the number of all players < 1265763406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um P and Q < 1265763413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265763414 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265763422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer finite things < 1265763424 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a game of chance < 1265763428 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take two players < 1265763433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not known who wins < 1265763443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the probability of one of them winning is known < 1265763460 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take one player and the probability of him winning against a randomly chosen opponent - that's p < 1265763507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i am assuming as a mental model that for each pair of players there is a given chance of each player winning (summing to 1 of course) < 1265763525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265763531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and P for a player is simply the average of the chances of winning against each of the others < 1265763531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265763551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually different from mine? < 1265763568 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265763569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265763576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... < 1265763577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with oerjan. < 1265763580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i assume that for all < 1265763582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pairs, it's completely random who wins" < 1265763582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265763593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i interpreted that as 0.5 for all pairs < 1265763604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but once you know they win pn of the matches < 1265763618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just think of it as them winning with prob p < 1265763624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means there is no underlying skill difference < 1265763644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so any P and Q has no predictive power < 1265763714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be an underlying probability varying between pairs if there is to be any predictive estimate < 1265763729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a fundamental difference, but if there is one, obviously yours is better < 1265763730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the underlying function is unknown, hm < 1265763730 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265763735 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course p and q have predictive power < 1265763778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my model, of course p and q have predictive power, because if q is large, then you know that dude is prolly not one of the p dudes player 1 wins < 1265763797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265763802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually my way is too simple < 1265763844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mindboggles at FC++
< 1265763959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i predict this is extremely complicated to do properly, and will not give a fixed result. although it's probably bayesian thinking which i've never properly understood anyhow < 1265763962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course p and q have predictive power < 1265763966 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to bet on who wins < 1265763973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you know p and q < 1265763979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should bet on whichever's larger < 1265763984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on average, you will be ahead < 1265763989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1265764027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i was deducing from oklopol's assumption that all pairs were random (i.e. 0.5) < 1265764048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think by "random" he meant random values for probabilities < 1265764048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the actual player pairs < 1265764059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265764075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what the fuck does it matter if the pairs were random if you are actually considering some actual game with, for each pair, a predefined result for the winner < 1265764075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265764101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not random in a given game < 1265764112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not _completely_ predefined, it's still a probability for each pair < 1265764113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the probabilities are 1 or 0 there < 1265764125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, in mine, you have probability 1 or 0 for each pair. < 1265764126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't necessarily win every time < 1265764128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265764187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm every actual probability distribution is a linear combination of yours... < 1265764227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably that won't help any < 1265764242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing helps, someone start a simulation. < 1265764297 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how you guys are still talking about this < 1265764305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is stopping now
< 1265764317 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made my guess 20 min ago, i think it's correct < 1265764334 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i'm not even sure how to quantify correct yet < 1265764343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: have you seen what happens if you put "c" and "not tc" within 10 words of each other on this chan? < 1265764380 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265764402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't impose arbitrary limits on the filesystem < 1265764426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265764489 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, numerically, my guess is P/2Q < 1265764505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that kinda seems wrong :) < 1265764507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be over 1 < 1265764510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't it < 1265764517 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it can < 1265764521 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a very good guess < 1265764536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i need to fix this < 1265764557 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sucks at probs
< 1265764578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if we have n people, each making a guess about this problem, and we take two of them, P and Q, ... < 1265765360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265765658 0 :comexbot!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1265765895 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265766369 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't a programming language; it's a computer processor control language. You use it to control a computer processor. < 1265766409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i profess to process < 1265767393 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given C# knowledge, how easy/difficult will it be to tutor someone in Java? < 1265767430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: not too hard; learn the syntax differences, and the standard library < 1265767437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of it, but the bits you want to teach < 1265767452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't much of an attitude difference, except that java sometimes takes correctness over the top < 1265767467 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, presumably this person is taking a class, so they'd have notes.. < 1265767486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: teaching Java's my day job, btw < 1265767486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultimately, your benefit will be from knowing *programming*, not from knowing Java specifically. < 1265767495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agreed < 1265767504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although knowing the OO attitude helps a lot too for Java < 1265767514 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After the 10 hours of Java tutoring is over, I plan on forgetting everything again < 1265767536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knowing a specific language only is needed if it's something that's a bit "out there" compared with what you're used to. < 1265767548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(going from imperative-land to Lisp or Haskell, for instance) < 1265767567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even that's more "knowing the general paradigm". < 1265768916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265768969 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265772977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265774813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/hvmcpf/candyfloss.mp4 Enjoy some MST3K < 1265774972 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265775012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love me some illegal downloads! < 1265775059 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1265775074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As illegal downloads go, that's not very illegal, it's just a short clip :P < 1265775194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST A SHORT PRISON STAY, THEN < 1265775415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just as illegal. < 1265775439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh stop complaining and watch the fekking clip :P < 1265775449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did. < 1265775453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are agents of Satan! < 1265776640 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have terabytes of illegal downloads < 1265776690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how terable < 1265776716 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One person in my UNIX class was convinced that they wouldn't go after him for illegal BitTorrent stuff if, as soon as it went to 100%, he stopped it. < 1265776746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which Haskell graphical library should I use? Also, when coding complex programs, does one normally worry about the IO/normal code separation too much? < 1265776786 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: somewhat true < 1265776848 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If by "somewhat" < 1265776851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean "not" < 1265776989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "I don't, but you may want to try wxHaskell" and "Normally? It's just natural, pretty much always." < 1265777012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I just like commenting that it's illegal. < 1265777017 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/wouldn't/less likely to/ < 1265777019 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1265777027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to note the ridiculousness of it being illegal. < 1265777052 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to watch that I don't just create and discard an IO object, right? < 1265777072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... < 1265777078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265777095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you using unsafePerformIO, and can you make it stop? < 1265777099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265777233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know what that is. Now I do. Now I feel dirty. < 1265777361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the appropriate reaction. < 1265777614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i _think_ pikhq was hinting at the idea that it is unlikely you'll manage to create and discard an IO object unless you are using that. < 1265777677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: f x y = x < 1265777691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's not impossible... < 1265777692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 1 getLine < 1265777704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but why would you do that? < 1265777721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why; I'm just making sure that does what I expect (namely, nothing, since it didn't come through main) < 1265777735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265777739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = const btw < 1265777849 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265777867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, that does absolutely nothing, and does it well. < 1265777900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it called const? < 1265777907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant function < 1265778021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dun get it :( < 1265778045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a constant function is a function that takes the same value at all points < 1265778054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And const creates such a function. < 1265778058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so const 1, say, is a constant function < 1265778058 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265778061 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265778079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the typical non-Haskell name for \x y -> x is "K". < 1265778113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K combinator < 1265778130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well of course it's a combinator. < 1265778131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265778497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd :D < 1265778557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265779188 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265779317 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-102-163.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265779496 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't quite get it < 1265779543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Face < 1265779564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1265779699 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might be a reference to "it puts the lotion on its skin" even though I don't know waht that means < 1265779725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well neither do i < 1265779842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads a wikipedia article
< 1265779844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nearly vomits < 1265779856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265779894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just say that the character [in Silence of the Lambs] is not a nice person < 1265779899 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jame_Gumb < 1265779946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic (or rather i'll try not to) < 1265780457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds randall munroe's bug reports - unusual
< 1265780464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see blag) < 1265780732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265781373 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265782017 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265782138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1265782155 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265782268 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265783415 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785167 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785170 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265786050 0 :zeotrope!~sami@bas3-kitchener06-1096649590.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265786191 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265786537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265786544 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265787039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265787877 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265788186 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265788799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265788800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265788965 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265789566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265789599 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265790529 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265793392 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265794136 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265794560 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265794676 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265795413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265799946 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265800845 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265800942 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265803103 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265804853 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265805057 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265808324 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265811012 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265811330 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265813245 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265813823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265815811 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I think I'm going to give up using the term "Turing-complete", since it is woefully ill-defined (except in recursive function theory, where it means something slightly different from "universal".) < 1265816231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!! < 1265816248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to call things mu-recursive instead of turing complete, because I'm usually talking about functions < 1265816387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a whole space inside the intuitive notion of "Turing-complete" that *could* be formalized, but hardly anyone's doing it, and I have no idea why. < 1265816391 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) Encoding (b) Input composition (c) Halting (d) Initial tape configuration < 1265816479 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me about (c)? < 1265816668 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think ais has done a little bit in terms of (a) and (d) hasn't he? with the 110 stuff < 1265816717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aaway elsewherr < 1265816721 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graa. < 1265816725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot type. < 1265816758 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais has caused holy wars over (d) :P < 1265816890 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816956 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265817278 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265817282 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265817297 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265817680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: short version about (c): Turing machines halt, Cellular automata don't, so for a CA to simulate a TC you need some way to recognize when it has reached a particular state and you can declare it's halted. < 1265817689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/TC/TM/ < 1265817706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines halt ?? < 1265817716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Traditionally, yes. It's how they decide things! < 1265817717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Turing machines can halt. < 1265817742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cellular automata don't, but can be said to "halt" when they come to a stable position. < 1265817804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally TMs halt by a designated "halt" state. The same is true of CA, but their halt state may take nonconstant time to recognize. < 1265817816 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Still, you need to be able to recognize that stable position, so from a complexity point of view, you need some sort of predicate that says "has this CA halted?" and I think the complexity of that predicate has to be taken into account when you start making claims about one system being "simpler" than another. < 1265817835 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, the same is true of CA when you're using them to calculate something: They go to a designated "halt" state. It just so happens that they continue on, because that designation is purely human :P < 1265817839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah inputing encoding for CAs is usually O(n) or worse too < 1265817856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right, equivalently, the "halted?" predicate is trivial for TMs. < 1265817863 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1265817887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the "what should the symbol on the next new cell of tape I use be?" function is also trivial for TMs, not so trivial for CAs that rely on pretty patterns throughout space. < 1265817925 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the statement "Turing-complete" makes no argument about time complexity. So long as it takes non-infinite time to encode and recognize, it's still Turing complete. Or is that exactly what you're complaining about? < 1265817957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, I'm taking issue with certain mathematician's claims that their system is "simpler" here :) < 1265817964 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh < 1265817990 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1265817991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And trying, idly, to formalize all this machinery within the Wonderful World of TC < 1265817993 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Certain mathematicians" who shall remain nameless but obvious :P < 1265817999 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in summary: simpler shmimpler < 1265818032 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :locally nameless :D < 1265818056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :para-nameless < 1265818103 0 :MigoMipo!kvirc@79.138.145.227.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818180 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for the record, yesterday's exciting language L was raising the question about (b). < 1265818216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L was a real language?? < 1265818222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thuoght it was arbitrary < 1265818234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a language for the purpose of discussion. < 1265818258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was calling it L. But I just looked it up and there are apparently at least 3 "real" languages named L. < 1265818262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_programming_language < 1265818273 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my) L would be a good example of a pathological example of a language < 1265818312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your L? < 1265818317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry but I missed it yesterday < 1265818341 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language limited to implementing a Kibble interpreter. < 1265818355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is a language in which all programs are illegal except one: an interpreter for <>. < 1265818393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 4 days since last ehird sighting | 2 days since last alise sighting | 203 days since last graue sighting | 14 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265818439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey oooh hehe that's cool < 1265818464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265818533 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Whether it's "TC" or not seems to depend on what you think about the role of input in determining that. < 1265818548 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For every TM, I can come up with (some L program, some input) that simulates that TM. But I can't come up with just (some L program) that simulates the TM. < 1265818585 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad wget doesn't have an --ignore-robots.txt option :P < 1265818601 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265818604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Grab the source and add it. ;) < 1265818737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't mirror the logs :( < 1265818748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265818752 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have my own logs, but that relies on my unreliable connection. < 1265819030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265819134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265820348 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yrh < 1265820365 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265820393 0 :cheater!~cheater@213.221.89.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265820397 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If filenames are predictable, call wget in loop? < 1265820442 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Bleh :P < 1265820568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Dates are pretty predictable. ;) < 1265820943 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if P != NP could be proved with a space complexity result, like: NP potentially generates more intermediate data than can possibly be processed in P. < 1265820950 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265820977 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265820992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, oh god. Here I am complaining about the vagaries of "Turing-completeness", I completely forgot what hell with models of computation they have in complexity theory. < 1265820995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shudders
< 1265821007 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265821599 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, how one proves lower bound for intermediate data generated? < 1265821633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, did you reach any conclusion about the issue with L? < 1265821670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw it discussed in scrollback but the it was quite far too long to read, and intermixed with other discussions < 1265821681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes studying for a test
< 1265821783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whether L is "Turing-complete" or not seems to depend on what you think about the role of input in determining that. or every TM, I can come up with (some L program, some input) that simulates that TM. But I can't come up with just (some L program) that simulates the TM. I went looking and reached the conclusion that the term "Turing-complete" relies too much on intuition, so I'm going to try to avoid using < 1265821793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/For/ < 1265821806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but not all TC languages have input separate from the program itselfd < 1265821808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itself* < 1265821815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, that one ais proved < 1265821831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depend on how you define TC :) < 1265821835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won some price from wolfram for it < 1265821838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what it was called < 1265821859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes: < 1265821864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ < 1265821898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I could say such languages are not Turing complete, because their programs don't define functions. < 1265821911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I *would*, but I *could* :) < 1265821912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but neither do UTMs! < 1265821913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now fetching logs! < 1265821916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muahahahaha < 1265821928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? a UTM defines a function < 1265821933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265821950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, depends on what exactly you mean by a function here < 1265821957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also, wasn't GOL proved TC? < 1265821965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maps some set of inputs to some set of outputs < 1265821974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, what about game of life < 1265821980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is well established to be tc < 1265822004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Please understand, since I just decided that the term "Turing-complete" is not well-defined, I don't think that languages can be proved to be it or not. < 1265822033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then what exactly do we prove when when implement brainfuck or whatever in a given language < 1265822056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bf with infinite tape of course) < 1265822065 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll stick the logs in hg, if it's not too big. < 1265822068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know anymore :) We prove that brainfuck can be implemented in it, at least... < 1265822070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which it will be :P < 1265822087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and a host of other languages, if those can be implemented in brainfuck < 1265822137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: a bignum-space befunge98 is able to implement a brainfuck interpreter with infinite tape < 1265822147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm sure it would be possible to prove it was TC if we could get a definition of TC that wasn't mostly intuitive. It would have to address several things, which I listed previously (encoding, halting, input composition, initial tape contents, maybe others) < 1265822188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like: I think the term TC can be formalized, but I don't think it has been yet. I think there would probably be multiple formalizations, too. < 1265822200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, able to implement an UTM in. And yes L is TC then. So we need a TC-not-bloody-silly one for practical purposes < 1265822214 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265822225 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reappears mid-conversation.
< 1265822228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, or TC needs to be "split up" into a bunch of different properties (some of which imply others) < 1265822236 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the problem with L's reduction that it results in a huge time complexity? < 1265822243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what? < 1265822263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, L is scheme but with restrictions added so it can *only* implement an interpreter for another tc language < 1265822263 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, no complexity or encoding issues that I'm aware of. < 1265822267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a specific one < 1265822275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's an input issue. < 1265822280 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265822281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, thus, is L itself TC? < 1265822358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should maybe put this all on the wiki at some point. < 1265822457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, might be a good idea < 1265822477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, formalising TC might be stuff for a thesis < 1265822525 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure, but what advisor in their right mind would let their student work on it? :) < 1265822611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, none < 1265822902 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265823490 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265823787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But then, how one proves lower bound for intermediate data generated? <-- If I could answer that, I would be a million dollars richer :) But maybe you could prove all your nondeterministic "threads" would all be working on data that differs a lot from each other's... so much so that you can't compress it into a space that could be processed in P. < 1265823839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they told me that these sorts of counting proofs don't work because they don't relativize. < 1265824037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't mind me, just going slightly nuts with boredom on my current "real" task. < 1265824175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP=NP? < 1265824179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, trying to prove P!=NP? < 1265824187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: That's what you think! :) < 1265824200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not seriously. < 1265824209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't expect so < 1265824286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, while you are at it, please prove or disprove the Riemann hypothesis < 1265824326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1265824341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i'm not cpressey, but i won't show my proof so he has a chance at it, too < 1265824488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : XD < 1265825880 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265827114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also going unnamed today shall be certain researchers who think Literate Programming was invented to enable separate compilation... < 1265827402 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-232-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265827830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, huh? What is that even supposed to mean < 1265828101 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265828135 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265828185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing, really. < 1265828255 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: co'o rodo < 1265828286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an alternative, I could have said "Hm, this Python code shows you can program Perl in any language" < 1265828652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to wonder if I wouldn't prefer "deep magic" that is at least *documented*, over "light magic" that is purely ad-hoc < 1265829015 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265829045 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265829196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is that perl or python criticism? < 1265829233 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Python criticism, I guess. < 1265829243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what specific python thing? < 1265829247 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or criticism about how it's being used. < 1265829331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite the fact that the language offers you fairly decent classes and objects -- the data is a bunch of values, stuck in dicts, sometimes stuck into other dicts, sometimes with computed keys. < 1265829352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about that __slots__ thing? < 1265829372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course *that* is very ad-hoc < 1265829398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of it's existence, but I've never used it, or even seen it used, yet. < 1265829407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have seen it used, and I have used it < 1265829462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, on the other hand I have both seen __attribute((regparms)) (or whatever the spelling was, maybe singular?), and used it < 1265829510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a difference on x86 for cfunge. From something like 0.054 seconds (wall clock with time) to 0.041 seconds. < 1265829545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(average over 30 runs each, first run for each removed for caching handling) < 1265829561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was on mycology, forgot to mention that < 1265829582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was run on a sempron 3300+ (at 2 GHz), with 1.5 GB RAM < 1265829600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes faster on my thinkpad (which has core 2 duo at 2.66 GHz) < 1265829886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, the .hg directory for the logs is 37MB. < 1265829898 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I won't be providing a hg-able #esoteric log :P < 1265829938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. There goes my business plan. < 1265830079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265830186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl, did whoever join as sexygirl153 on 2010-01-20 do that after reading the logs from 2004-01-09? :P < 1265830220 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just my alt name < 1265830316 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But was it on 2004-01-09, before you ever came here? :P < 1265830362 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1265830397 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still the same person < 1265830410 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means you have the greatest longevity of anybody on this channel excluding lament, so long as you consider longevity to be latest_time - earliest_time < 1265830414 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2004, so long ago < 1265830428 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, to be young again < 1265830432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265830436 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was on the mailing list long before that :) < 1265830463 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265830483 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too bad the mailing list died < 1265830575 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1265830606 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1265830636 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit (Git for Windows) comes with about half of unix < 1265830648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably msys :P < 1265830715 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265830872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Gregor said yeah < 1265831057 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used Cygwin, but I'd never heard of msys before < 1265831077 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if msys is half of unix, cygwin is an entire unix < 1265831127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit also has a huge bug in it where 'git status' doesn't work properly < 1265831142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reports files as being different when their timestamps are different < 1265831153 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: set core.filemode to false? < 1265831178 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit can't set the executable bit on files, so it reads them back and sees "oh, different mode!" < 1265831198 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it need the executable bit? < 1265831209 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can set the flag to make it ignore file mode differences < 1265831252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Cygwin essentially is an entire UNIX, y'know. < 1265831254 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think this is about file mode < 1265831259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A very odd one, but hey. < 1265831267 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it actually reports them as being different based on timestamp alone < 1265831267 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265831396 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yah, that's what I said :P < 1265831487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The logs in the topic don't exactly start from when the channel does. < 1265831526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My #esoteric logs start at 2002-12-14, for example. < 1265831626 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah at some point whatshisname came in and offered to log us < 1265831631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatshisname < 1265831644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i actually mention his name, he'll probably get notified about it < 1265831649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't remember it anyway < 1265831654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He who shall not be named. < 1265831659 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't suppose you can send me some pre-2004 logs? ^^ < 1265831683 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why not, I gave those to ehird too. < 1265831691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I have them somewhere downloadable already. < 1265831712 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his name isn't bef, what is it? < 1265831714 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cnf? < 1265831742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure where I have the pre-2002-12-14 logs; these start from when I got irssi running on a sparc box. < 1265831902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some 2003 logs from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ < 1265831924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: [2003-01-18 02:49:02] < hcf> lament: would you like clog to log #esoteric? < 1265831988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about when the "old logs" there start; I only have a few days worth of logs saved before that. I wonder where the even older ones would be. < 1265832059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, looka there, didn't know those were there. < 1265832070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The link's on top of the new-logs dir. < 1265832088 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boy, I sure do ignore stuff :P < 1265832131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hcf < 1265832138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: yah, that's what I said :P <-- it sounded like you were disputing that msys was half of unix by using cygwin as a parallel < 1265832157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's my pre 2002-12-14 ones... but that didn't help much, since I seem to have joined the channel on Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002. At least lament and dbc were already on-channel at that time. < 1265832179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah at some point whatshisname came in and offered to log us <-- the one behind tunes? < 1265832182 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be pretty odd if i weren't on the channel < 1265832184 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1265832193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i dunno what their relationship is < 1265832199 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't suppose you have the logs from the beginning? :P < 1265832204 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265832215 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i even used mIRC then :) < 1265832219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-8 < 1265832233 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't own a computer < 1265832260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, putting up those logs would be cool however. If not by hg at least as a browsable dir (maybe plaintext searchable too?) < 1265832276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially for the older logs < 1265832293 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, right... I meant what pikhq said < 1265832298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have logs since 2006 (with a gap too, due to a rm gone bad) < 1265832301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 day since last topic change | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1265832337 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forgot to point out that cygwin was a study in unix teratology < 1265832343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1265832351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can only be correct for 0 days < 1265832366 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on rounding < 1265832367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever it is to be updated it would be to 0 days immediately < 1265832435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 3 days since last alise sighting | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what was the change? < 1265832485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorting < 1265832487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265832495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in reverse psychological order? < 1265832500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is alise btw? < 1265832503 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now pushing the #esoteric logs to a publicly-accessible repo. < 1265832507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: alise = ehird < 1265832511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265832531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why different ones for that alias and ehird < 1265832544 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ will have the logs eventually. < 1265832545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always so confusing with multiple-named people; it took me so long to even grok the scarf-ais identity. < 1265832547 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many days since last dbc fractal sighting < 1265832579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same < 1265832580 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many since last aardappel sighting? < 1265832593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at least some of them you know change nick all the time < 1265832611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic wasn't it? < 1265832616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever his current nick is < 1265832617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: My logs have some interruptions in them, but the latest dbc fractal in them seems to be from 2005-03-04. < 1265832632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, dbc fractal? < 1265832672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/05.03.04 < 1265832707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265832729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm missing the whole of January-March 2008, though; I got disconnected for some reason and forgot to rejoin. < 1265832731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw, ever heard about "Heitor Villa-Lobos"? Composer. Some very good music (IMO). < 1265832739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also April 2006. < 1265832758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might've been more recent dbc fractals during those times. < 1265832798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, worth checking out on youtube (I assume it is there, I have it on CD...): "Bachianas Brasilerias No. 1: I. Introdução (Embolada)" < 1265832809 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265832992 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of Villa-Lobos, yes. < 1265832998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, okay < 1265833067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual the cds are missing from musicbrainz, meaning I get no track titles in vlc < 1265833670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my fault. I stole them. (I like shiny things.) < 1265833790 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got my Google Buzz thingy, and 3 people are already following me < 1265833825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two of whom I'm already following, despite not having chosen to do so < 1265833889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google buzz? < 1265833892 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I hide a .. thingy? < 1265833893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is that? < 1265833903 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265833906 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/buzz < 1265833908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, put it under something that is large enough to cover it? < 1265833930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, twitter on stereoids. And in beta. < 1265833940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :steroids* < 1265833958 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to watch SG-1 now < 1265833985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, did my hint for hiding things help? < 1265833993 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265833998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg push of 37MB = no fun :P < 1265834011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, strange. Try putting it in the attic then? < 1265834036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, depends < 1265834038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION starts writing an Attic plugin for mercurial
< 1265834040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of connection? < 1265834049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh? < 1265834055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CVS joke! < 1265834061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh ffs < 1265834063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cable, while simultaneously torrenting :P < 1265834070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had almost successfully managed to forget cvs < 1265834072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265834085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use only SCCS. < 1265834094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what one is that now again? < 1265834098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some weird one isn't it? < 1265834104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it isn't monotone < 1265834108 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first < 1265834129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so: sccs -> rcs -> cvs? < 1265834139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that timeline way off? < 1265834174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 's about right. < 1265834192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, interesting. Don't you need a noun before "'s"? < 1265834226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I speak ... COLLOQUIALLY! < 1265834539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what? I thought it was for OS X only? ;P < 1265834547 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265835198 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265835212 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265835338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish hg {push,pull} had some kind of status reporting. < 1265835363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've used scp to get the first version pushed. < 1265835396 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use git < 1265835413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, like bzr does? < 1265835418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr shows a progress bar < 1265835421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265835444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't remember git showing a progress bar < 1265835445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must be nice. Now if only everything ELSE about bzr wasn't so utterly confusing as to be insufferable. < 1265835456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither do I :P < 1265835458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Progress bars are pointless < 1265835467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why? because git doesn't have them? < 1265835467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :git shows the status numerically < 1265835474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they don't tell me anything < 1265835485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you git fanboys are even worse than mac fanboys < 1265835488 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, showing status at all is the point. < 1265835492 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about darcs? < 1265835498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is also numerical info < 1265835499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too often the most time is spent at the last 5% of the progress bar < 1265835502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next to that progress bar < 1265835529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, anyway, just use tcpdump to check what it is doing < 1265835533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265835542 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So helpful :P < 1265835557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, presumably it is tunnelled through ssl or ssh? < 1265835561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, very helpful < 1265835572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSL, yes. < 1265835586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr you generally tunnel though ssh < 1265835592 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha! < 1265835597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s done < 1265835602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the bzr+ssh protocol < 1265835615 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ If you hg clone this, I /will/ kill you :P < 1265835615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is the way you give the "url" to bzr) < 1265835647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about fizzie's old logs? were they merged into there? < 1265835653 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He never gave 'em to me. < 1265835663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, *prod* < 1265835679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, are they merged into a common log file format or such? < 1265835689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of these are straight off tunes.org < 1265835697 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right, I'll be nice and won't clone it < 1265835705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, we wouldn't want dupes < 1265835711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'll just hg init and hg pull! < 1265835721 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265835732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If somebody wants to write a clever log merger, I'll be glad to merge logs into my repo :P < 1265835732 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll snatch the fetch script < 1265835738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what is dpm() for in that shell script in there? < 1265835745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Days Per Month < 1265835745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, maybe < 1265835747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265835757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I wrote stupidly :) < 1265835765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about leap years? < 1265835773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing out on log files there < 1265835781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265835782 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at what dpm returns for February. < 1265835784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you always try 29 < 1265835786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265835833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw, about leap years see http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/bldyk2.htm < 1265835845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That fetch script, btw, is intended to be run straight out of cron, at least once a week. < 1265835861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, well, I didn't think it was so important, since my logs have just a couple of weeks of not-very-active talk. But they're at http://zem.fi/~fis/eso/ anyway, if someone wants to understanderate the format. < 1265835866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b < 1265835888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looks similar to xchat's format? < 1265835913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be irssi < 1265835914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the irssi default except with YYYY-MM-DD added in the timestamp. < 1265835919 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Luckily, #esoteric didn't exist in 1712 Sweden. < 1265835969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah < 1265836013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure that's "luckily" and not "unfortunately"? Think what sort of world-shaking innovations there would be, had this sort of thing been going on since 1712. < 1265836030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265836054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, clearly it would have been about esoteric wood carving or something back then < 1265836062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe iron making < 1265836084 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh pfft, like this hasn't been the official hobby of the Illuminati since they landed on this planet in ancient Egypt < 1265836103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265836336 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee, apparently fizzie was fizzies back then. < 1265836357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, calamari predates time more than I'd realized. < 1265836371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "s" suffix was just a temporary thing for the sparc box. < 1265836376 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, dbc is still here too, just never talks. < 1265836407 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like mtve. < 1265836410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we go even further back (to 1997 or thereabouts), I used to be "Fizzle", though; and then (briefly) "Fizzie", and then lowercased. < 1265836412 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did absolutely nothing happen from 2002-12-15 to 2003-01-03? :P < 1265836434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, those parts might be in a different log. < 1265836543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: See http://zem.fi/~fis/eso/more-days.log -- but you'd have to splice that into the other files in the correct order for optimum performance. < 1265836628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a chatterbot newer than MegaHAL that's F/OSS >_> < 1265836648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that in #esoteric ? < 1265836650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 1997? < 1265836658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did freenode even exist back then? < 1265836738 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265836749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that was elsewhere. < 1265836757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "optimum performance"? < 1265836764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, when was #esoteric founded? < 1265836786 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (7 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, 19:48:54 ago) < 1265836839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling the idea of the channel started from the mailing list talk, but I'm not sure. I think that more-days.log starts from the time I first joined here. < 1265837022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was discussed on the mailing list, i think someone even created the channel on efnet, but i suggested moving it to openprojects (which later became freenode) < 1265837443 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now training a megahal from #esoteric logs :P < 1265837456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Deja vu? Yes, I have done this before) < 1265837524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megahal? < 1265837531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what abut fungot < 1265837532 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i knew it was a joke < 1265837539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so funny about it? < 1265837546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are being replaced?? < 1265837557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just having some giggly fun :P < 1265837574 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's choking on dbc's fractals >_< < 1265837871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascii frctals? < 1265837872 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265837954 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: See http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/03.01.21 < 1265838082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice < 1265838649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that log has a rare exarkun sighting < 1265839954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 55 02:12:04 ah, re befunge, just wrote an interpreter with forth. so our unofficial befunge-interpreters-in-obsolete-but-non-esoteric-languages project now has forth, fortran-77, algol-60, plus few less interesting ones. maybe should do cobol next. < 1265839958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ interesting < 1265839962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have it around still? < 1265839989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ehird will kill you when he finds out you called forth for "obsolete" < 1265840002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and: did you ever do the cobol one? < 1265840049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't do cobol; and I guess "obsolete" was not a good word choice there. < 1265840062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I think I still have the forth version. < 1265840084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very elegant, though. < 1265840281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 93 or 98? < 1265840306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93. < 1265840315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265840324 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aggh cobol < 1265840344 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first programming language was cobol < 1265840348 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not a good choicwe < 1265840361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, my first one was AppleScript < 1265840387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then followed by delphi, then C#, then lots of other (and saner) languages, such as bash, C and what not < 1265840395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang and lisp too < 1265840400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that came quite a bit later) < 1265840424 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think all these are saner than cobol < 1265840426 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not bash < 1265840439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265840442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash is quite sane < 1265840445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it < 1265840455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, I wrote a modular irc bot in it < 1265840460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be connected here currently < 1265840460 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1265840462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as envbot < 1265840466 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's dumb < 1265840469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265840470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1265840483 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could have done it in a more sensible language < 1265840490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, ah yes, brainfuck < 1265840495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or intercal < 1265840497 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah exactly < 1265840504 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a networking brainfuck anyway < 1265840515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well befunge has networking < 1265840516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1265840517 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1265840524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge98 that is < 1265840535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, you could hook it up to netcat, socat, gnutls-cli or similar < 1265840552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, I wonder if I should add a SSL fingerprint, now that freenode supports that < 1265840559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssl that is < 1265840566 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge is more interesting < 1265840588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, also, then you might as well call IOCCC stupid < 1265840633 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not so much that it's stupid, it's just that writing an irc bot in bash is just annoying enough to be painful and just normal enough not to be very interesting < 1265840635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, btw are you new here? Or just an idler? < 1265840637 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, maybe just me < 1265840639 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idler < 1265840656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it is fun to do it < 1265840685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is connecter as envbot as I said. Try /msg envbot -commands < 1265840687 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i'm the stupid one here really < 1265840695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, well, didn't say that < 1265840714 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i know i just mean it's a bit silly for me to be criticisng how other people choose to use their time < 1265840725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, but, basically no one else have a exactly the same bot < 1265840737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, eggdrop or supybot? there are loads of them < 1265840741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is quite unique < 1265840744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is open source < 1265840750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, someone else *might* use it < 1265840751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1265840758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I know at least < 1265840768 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's unique about it? < 1265841074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, compared to? < 1265841082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no one has exactly the same < 1265841092 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1265841118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, also it used to have an interface for searching in the package manager on gentoo. Doesn't work any more since I switched distro < 1265841124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not really developing on it any more < 1265841145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have to code a new one for arch linux < 1265841178 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265841883 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265843134 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265843436 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265843615 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265844109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose there's any way to just derive a lazy generator for values of an algebraic data type in Haskell? < 1265844129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like if I have: data Tree = Leaf | Branch Tree Tree < 1265844175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that will give me the list: [Leaf, Branch Leaf Leaf, Branch Leaf (Branch Leaf Leaf), Branch (Branch Leaf Leaf) Leaf, Branch (Branch Leaf Leaf) (Branch Leaf Leaf), ...] < 1265844212 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey yes you can < 1265844215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265844222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no there isn't < 1265844244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drat. Oh well. < 1265844300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like trees = return Leaf ++ Branch <$> trees <*> trees will not work either < 1265844304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the list monad is not fair < 1265844338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicer syntax.. (| Leaf |) ++ (| Branch trees trees |) < 1265844346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might even have the other one wrong < 1265844442 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265845099 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265845119 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265846063 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds