< 1261440187 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------" < 1261440772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I could really do with 2560x1440 pixels of screen real estate. < 1261442513 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261442674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nodejs.org/ this is cool beans < 1261443780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/clear < 1261443880 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261443966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1261443970 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282702.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261444146 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261444754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261445337 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261446242 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261447097 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261447121 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261447387 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know where i can find sources of bacical linux commands like grep, cat, ls and stuff < 1261447514 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261447564 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/ < 1261447596 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=grep&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1#options < 1261447611 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/grep/ < 1261448088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( gnu tools r teh sux < 1261448099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: look at the bsd implementations or sth < 1261448111 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU > U < 1261448154 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you very much < 1261448363 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261448369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu is waaaay inferior to unix, specifically by breaking the very underpinning of unix and then pretending it's still there < 1261449345 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261450710 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261451014 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean, underpinning? < 1261451142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as "backbone" if you know that idiom < 1261451270 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-212.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261451290 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope :p < 1261451401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: basically... the underlying concepts < 1261451411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing that makes it all work in the way it does, the unifying idea < 1261451418 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261451438 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying that linux is not an Unix system? < 1261451467 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar GNU is not unix < 1261451506 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes ^^ that's right < 1261451565 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1261451583 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit, i'm going to try bsd < 1261451603 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSDs something different < 1261451607 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1261451611 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not unix too ? < 1261451612 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1261451614 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261451628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: when i say unix i mean the unix philosophy < 1261451645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tools that do only one task, that are the same from a terminal or piped to another process, etc < 1261452727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD is, in fact, UNIX. < 1261452824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Linux isn't a UNIX system, it's just a decent kernel that can be the base of a GNU system. < 1261452826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIU < 1261452828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very catchy acronym < 1261452858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But accurate. < 1261452885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsd is eunuchs < 1261453136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIE? < 1261453199 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261453817 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261454297 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261454781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261454781 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1261455072 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitte" < 1261457065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ihttp://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 < 1261457068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 < 1261457070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gotta sleep now < 1261457096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261458040 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261458066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261458085 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261458408 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1261458427 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261459289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261459291 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261459354 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261461389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261461858 0 :augur_!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261462786 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261462796 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261462882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261463781 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261464131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261466737 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261468799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261468800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261470748 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261472403 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261473253 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261476615 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261476656 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261476663 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261477174 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261478605 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-120-150.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261479409 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261479454 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261481329 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261481405 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1261482393 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261482476 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-81-109-210-2.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261483843 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484313 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484316 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie? < 1261484434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't seen any fizzies around. < 1261484441 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Dead pixels in the sky." < 1261484498 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261484503 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it you that made fungot? < 1261484504 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: fnord anyway. :p what a great language for fnord. < 1261484538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261484585 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1261484593 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sources you recommend on lerning Befunge or any other esolang < 1261484597 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz i want to make a minecraft server.. < 1261484600 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..yeah, in an esolang < 1261484671 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything you recommend < 1261484698 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i could code a network extension, dont worry) < 1261484765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I've ever actually used any specific sources, mostly just the language specifications themselves. There's not that much "training material" for esolangs, I don't think. Except maybe for INTERCAL there are some more tutorialistic things. < 1261484778 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for Befunge-93 < 1261484780 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one < 1261484783 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also < 1261484783 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@24.191.97.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484787 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what esolang would you recommend < 1261484789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except befunge < 1261484789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if any < 1261484922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's more of a matter of personal preference. It's not usually the point with these languages to start thinking so much of their suitability to the task at hand. < 1261484965 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261484970 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll attempt to mod Piet then < 1261484974 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least i can have a work of ART < 1261484989 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How coincidental: I had partially already written this: "I would love to do something overcomplicated in one of the image-based languages, but that's just me." < 1261485012 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not just you < 1261485013 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDD < 1261485090 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the graphical ones < 1261485101 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not counting BF mods) < 1261485105 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's Piet, Piet-Q, Deltaplex, Omegaplex... < 1261485214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycelium, though I don't think it's an especially elegant one. < 1261485244 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow < 1261485385 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do it in Piet < 1261485391 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm scared of the network layer < 1261485647 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the network layer any easy in Befunge-98? < 1261485751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's specific extensions for networking in Funge-98; SOCK and SCKE and whatever the newfangled ones were that people were developing to fix the deficiencies of those two. < 1261485778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're pretty reasonable, as far as those things go. < 1261485781 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261486187 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just out of kicks < 1261486206 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be the weirdest language (with network facilities or a way to add them in even if adding new instructions) to make a server in? < 1261486390 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, brainfuck can be given server capacities with PSOX < 1261486397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just setting up some.. pipes thingy < 1261486952 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261487199 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261487231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I think I beat you at "crazy things to do with hugin" < 1261487248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware that we had a competition going on. < 1261487252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a photo of an xmas tree composed out of over 40 pictures < 1261487260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have now ;P < 1261487273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will upload said tree in a minute < 1261487389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I just need to convert it from a 16-bit per channel tiff with AdobeRGB to a 8-bit per channel jpeg with sRGB < 1261487395 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261487401 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261487435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There was quite heavy snowfall today, so I took a picture out of that same window-at-work to show how dramatically reduced the visibility was: http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg → http://zem.fi/g2/d/8542-1/20091222_002.jpg < 1261487518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just one, didn't bother taking the full view this time.) < 1261487527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the second is higher res? < 1261487540 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second is directly from the phone with no scalings. < 1261487552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sort of thing that was the source material for the first. < 1261487565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, funny gimp bug: < 1261487614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The image 'xmas_tree_8bit.tif' has an embedded color profile:\n sRGB built-in\nConvert the image to RGB working space (sRGB built-in)?" < 1261487626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity conversion! < 1261487784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, uploading... < 1261487818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes that is quite reduced visibility < 1261487826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vMzIxZQ/xmas_tree_8bit.jpg < 1261487885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not a panorama because there would be way parallax without a panoramic head. < 1261487903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm considering getting one maybe) < 1261487938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The magical balls of light look nice. < 1261488199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh? < 1261488218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh around the electric lamps thingies? < 1261488222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261488237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They look like special effects for glowy magic things in a fantasy whatever. < 1261488242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261488304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can see how low the noise is when you zoom the ceiling btw. That is because for each shutter speed I took 4 photos and merged them to denoise (see the panotools wiki for more info on that, you use enfuse for it) < 1261488335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all the "denoised" pictures were merged into the final HDR image < 1261488356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sadly the reduction to 8 bits removed some fine details from the lamp in the background < 1261488362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a rather nice pattern on it < 1261488405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that effort for a christmas tree?-) < 1261488493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261488596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have anything very photogenic around to play Hugin/panotools tricks with. < 1261488606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261488611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no xmas tree? < 1261488638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, the cat would probably just try to eat it and/or the decorations. It does that to anything new. < 1261488660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cat would be a good subject for photography experiments, but it doesn't quite understand the "staying still" thing. < 1261488667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261488700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can extract a bit of HDR-ness from raw images usually. Generally there is slightly more than 8 bits per channel in them < 1261488707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example mine has 12 bits per channel < 1261488748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think that's what my camera shoots too. < 1261488858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, "dcraw -i -v" doesn't say about bit depths; just the image size, filter pattern and some strange multiplier values. < 1261488871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I use ufraw < 1261488912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice preview thing and such and when you are happy with the settings you can save a script and use it to ufraw-batch (since you want same white balance for all images in the HDR merge and such) < 1261488912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've used the ufraw GUI, but I'm not at home right now and didn't want to bother with X forwarding. < 1261488922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261488950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway for editing there are two options basically: cinepaint and krita < 1261488956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since gimp doesn't do more than 8 bits per channel < 1261488996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, cinepaint's what used to be film-gimp? Didn't know that. < 1261489025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I haven't tried cinepaint, but from what I heard it is not a very nice experience when it comes to the user-interface < 1261489039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I stuck with krita, which isn't too fun either < 1261489050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but which at least has an ubuntu package) < 1261489112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw I have been using ethernet over firewire recently. Because working with 70 MB+ tiffs isn't fun over 100 mbit ethernet < 1261489173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reason I do it over network is that laptop is faster but the desktop monitor is better. However the laptop's graphics is unable to drive my desktop monitor in it's highest resolution. I guess 1400x1050 isn't very common) < 1261489307 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1261489312 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web servers run on everything these days < 1261489320 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am going to run a server on a pokemon mini < 1261490341 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261493733 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261494747 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261495692 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, go for it < 1261495708 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have IR? < 1261495724 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if youre serious < 1261495725 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :donate one < 1261495732 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, and no, wasn't serious :P < 1261495739 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU 8 bit, 4 MHz custom < 1261495743 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1261495749 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people ran web servers on a PIC < 1261495758 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an Atari < 1261495759 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a C64 < 1261495764 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C64 is 4 times slower than this < 1261495771 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it reliably runs webservers < 1261495821 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I wouldn't do it < 1261496293 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-0-92-246.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497363 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261497371 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adamd_ < 1261497377 0 :adamd_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261497448 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497678 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/m4w/1520403262.html < 1261497971 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261498102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaand http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg < 1261498238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support." < 1261498240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Opera. < 1261498248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did... did you just do the right, difficult thing, and become respectable? < 1261498254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh... wow. < 1261498430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey, the icon is less horribly ugly now too. < 1261498628 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261498641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: you're now less ridiculously silly for using opera! < 1261498668 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1261498680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support." < 1261498683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they finally came to their senses < 1261499070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261499169 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499280 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Dead socket < 1261499584 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, any news? < 1261499658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no reply—worryingly, but then not everybody spends all day on the computer < 1261499666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if they're not preparing to kill themselves < 1261499669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1261499745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261499757 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261500074 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261500111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How many atheists are there on /r/atheism? Upvote to count yourselves (i created this throwaway name so it won't affect my karma)." < 1261500111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP Reddit's Lack of Having Completely, Utterly and Irreversibly Jumped the Shark, 2005—2009 < 1261500340 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I unsubscribed from /r/atheism a long time ago, problem solved! < 1261500358 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For definitions of "solved" close enough to "ignored" < 1261500361 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bored guys < 1261500368 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me something to do < 1261500379 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :involvig either esolangs or old computers < 1261500382 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :involving* < 1261500557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Yess, but the cancer, it doth spread. < 1261500576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Take over Rc/Funge! Wait, no. Don't do that. < 1261500602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not create Infinitunge < 1261500618 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an infinite number of dimensions < 1261500626 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1261500628 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll do it right now < 1261500654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol has experience with infinite-dimensional things < 1261500663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1261500665 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shh, im coding < 1261500683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not have to listen. < 1261500743 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popping infinite scalars from the stack when you want a vector will be fun. < 1261500767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: befunge-93 or -98? < 1261500783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suggest adapting -93 because the "meat" of the problems you'll face will be in the -93 stuff < 1261500795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, make it 80x24x80x24x80x24x... :-D < 1261500801 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261500806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whyever not? < 1261500808 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's infinite in all directions < 1261500809 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.E. < 1261500815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's boring, asiekierka — because < 1261500818 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InfxInfxInfxInfxInfxInfxInf... < 1261500820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you don't have to use the dimensions to be TC < 1261500832 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever < 1261500835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's 80x24x80x24x..., not only does it respect Befunge heritage, < 1261500835 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm done < 1261500843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it means you have to fiddle with the dimensions to get TCness < 1261500856 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well too late < 1261500856 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said < 1261500858 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i finished coding it < 1261500863 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work on every PC < 1261500869 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm worried about RAM requirements though... D: < 1261500917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way you coded a working version in that time < 1261500921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are many subtle issues to address < 1261500934 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1261500939 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a child with undiagnosed ADHD < 1261500941 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on caffeine < 1261500946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That "upvote to count yourselves" thing isn't irreversible. Thank God that humans are capable of leaving sites after they used to frequent it. :P < 1261500954 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.exe < 1261500957 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be an infinite amount of dimensions that you can't actually access < 1261500959 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here you go < 1261500987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"undiagnosed ADHD", AKA "I can be as annoying as I want, I have a mental illness don't you see! I don't have to change anything!" < 1261501005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's been steadily increasing since the epoch < 1261501014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261501016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: It should work on every PC running Windows, you mean. < 1261501022 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261501026 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Wine on Linux < 1261501026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a low percentage of PCs in this channel. < 1261501027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know if it is ADHD if it is undiagnosed? < 1261501029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In conclusion, source of GTFO. < 1261501030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just curious < 1261501035 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use Wine on Linux < 1261501039 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm not offering source code < 1261501040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Source or GTFO. < 1261501040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because people on the internet think they know about things like that < 1261501041 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm evil < 1261501055 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the source code is so advanced < 1261501060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have asperger's syndrome! Therefore it's ALL YOUR FAULT! I CAN'T HELP BEING A SMARMY RETARD!" < 1261501061 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaking it would destroy the universe < 1261501068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: the door is that way → < 1261501071 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have asperger's syndrome! < 1261501074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are not interested < 1261501075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw you commented on bad picture yesterday. I'm creating a better one. Macro photography rocks < 1261501076 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore it's ALL YOUR FAULT! < 1261501076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no you don't < 1261501080 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CAN'T HELP BEING A SMARMY RETARD! < 1261501084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yoou can < 1261501087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1261501090 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said i cant < 1261501097 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, i will leak the source code < 1261501098 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geh < 1261501113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have actual autism, you cock. Don't claim pretend Asperger's syndrome. :P < 1261501147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas - i think my FTP connection glitched, not sure if it works < 1261501186 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not reuploading it < 1261501193 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i made enough space-time distortions doing it once < 1261501205 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one happens per each byte < 1261501217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal must be pretty impressive, to make language implementations in two lines. < 1261501224 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said < 1261501229 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my FTP connection died for a second < 1261501233 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the file might be corrupt < 1261501246 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would reupload it < 1261501250 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... yeah < 1261501253 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too lazy < 1261501268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can we all agree that asiekierka is an idiot, socially retarded and annoying? < 1261501268 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also spaec-tiem distortionz < 1261501272 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261501284 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY OKAY < 1261501288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that not only does his program probably not work due to the subtle issues required to be resolved to get infinite-dimensional Befunge to work, < 1261501290 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WILL UPLOAD THAT SOURCE CODE < 1261501295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's probably a retarded prank that asiekierka thinks is funny? < 1261501300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the door is over there? < 1261501302 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think it's funny < 1261501345 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas < 1261501354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes. I will note only one of the three has anything to do with Asperger's syndrome (well, unless you mean "common traits in people who self-diagnose") < 1261501378 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1261501381 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was meant to work like this: < 1261501384 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ Go up < 1261501386 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< Go left < 1261501388 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Go right < 1261501390 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v Go down < 1261501393 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something) < 1261501403 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h - Increase the number of the dimension operating on < 1261501408 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l - Decrease it < 1261501410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asperger's syndrome today is complete and utter rubbish; a label used by society to mean "person we do not like; for he is less emotionally crazy and more intelligent than us". < 1261501426 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a - Move left in the dimension you're on < 1261501431 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d - Move right in the dimension you're on < 1261501431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps Hans Asperger's original work was sane and reasonable; but what we mean when we say "Asperger's" today is a complete lie. < 1261501446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: that way you can only work in finite dimensionns < 1261501447 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 100 years < 1261501450 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone will have Aspergers < 1261501451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's arbitrary dimensions, not infinite < 1261501460 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Infinite = 65535 on 16-bit platforms < 1261501465 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you CANT GO MOAR < 1261501474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Hans Asperger's work described a disorder similar to autism, with a few differing features. < 1261501505 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as most people with the syndrome being of average or above average intelligence, and a lack of a delay in speech. < 1261501525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd also argue that "light" autism is different from "severe" autism, and only the latter is actually a condition as opposed to simply another combination of neural structure + personality. < 1261501544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Zefram (yes, the nomic Zefram) wrote a fun little thing on this... http://www.fysh.org/~zefram/allism/allism_intro.txt) < 1261501567 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's asiekierkism, too < 1261501574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still astounds me what a ridiculously bad idea empathy is. < 1261501576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow. < 1261501586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy < 1261501587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd note that any psychologist worth his/her salt only gives a flying fuck about a disorder if it actually causes problems. < 1261501616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and that people suck. That's a nice thing to note, as well. < 1261501622 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261501626 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261501675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And uses actual neural properties instead of the Holy Lord of Let's Make This a Disorder, the DSM. < 1261501675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy <-- a pitty it doesn't join up well for the lower picture < 1261501700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And by that correct definition, the percentage of psychologists worth their salt is less than 10%. < 1261501701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it isn't perfect for the upper image, but much better) < 1261501725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Psychology is almost entirely based on consensus, not evidence; rubbish, not science. < 1261501728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's a damn shame. < 1261501751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Quite. < 1261501755 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like the same idea as http://isnt.autistics.org/ < 1261501762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It links to it at the end. < 1261501771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But allism has some truth behind the joke. < 1261501792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the effects of allism are negative. < 1261501971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's also possible that you thought many-worlds means "all the worlds I can imagine exist" and that you decided it'd be cool if there existed a world where Jesus is Batman, therefore many-worlds is true no matter what the average physicist says. In this case you're just believing for general contrarian reasons, and you're probably more likely to believe in homeopathy as well." < 1261501971 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261502159 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe there's a world where i'm not an idiot < 1261502198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That world is one in which you are not you. < 1261502223 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the many-worlds theory I believe < 1261502234 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that when anything happens at any given microsecond < 1261502241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up. < 1261502248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are about to demonstrate your severe physics-related ignorance. < 1261502250 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe splits into two: the version where it happened and the version where opposite did < 1261502255 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to believe the many-worlds theory, but not for any good logical reason. I just hate the implications for time travel < 1261502262 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "i believe" i mean "i like and could be useful for games" < 1261502271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many worlds is the only thing that would make time travel possible. < 1261502420 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261502458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think *one* of the problem with the many universe stuff is that people have a problem remembering the difference between a potential phase-space and "actually exists" < 1261502461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many worlds is the only interpretation that leaves travelling backwards feasible... < 1261502507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about something like Nomikov's self consistency princible, or whatever it's called < 1261502512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Beware; Sgeo's next argument will be "but it means that I will never see my REAL parents again if I ever travel in time!!!" < 1261502527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, of course, dualism. < 1261502532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(travelling forward in time is, of course, merely a matter of relativity) < 1261502537 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it'll be possible to travel to the other worlds if many-worlds are true < 1261502541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo becomes scientifically absurd in T-10 seconds < 1261502551 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can see myself as not an idiot and destroy the multiverses! < 1261502570 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by paradoxingous < 1261502585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the Novikov self-consistency principle does not help at all < 1261502599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: As per chaos theory, more or less ANYTHING you do back in time will change the future. < 1261502605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus violating the principle. < 1261502627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ergo, all time travel beyond perhaps sending a microscopic, instantly-evaporating black hole into a backwater region of space would be impossible. < 1261502699 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about sending your soul back in time < 1261502701 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that possible < 1261502720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no such thing as a soul. < 1261502727 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1261502732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, truths. < 1261502738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1261502750 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairies exist, too < 1261502786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does Russell's Teapot. < 1261502804 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet the FSM put it there < 1261502845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn, heathen! < 1261502852 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was ME! < 1261502860 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heretics < 1261502886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It depends on how you define "soul". < 1261502912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soul, n. a word used to signal that the person referring to it as existing is a dualist. < 1261502920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dualist: see idiot < 1261502943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The exact state of everything within your body that affects the nervous system" might be a usable definition of "soul". < 1261502955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, said definition is rarely, if ever, used. < 1261502969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brain + spine is probably enough to count as your "soul" < 1261502989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, probably. < 1261503005 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain + quantum stuff < 1261503030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Said quantum stuff that is relevant is entirely in the brain... < 1261503062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quantum stuff" < 1261503068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DING DING DING QUANTUM MYSTICIST DETECTED < 1261503076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISPOSAL MECHANISM INITIALISATING < 1261503080 0 :kwertii!n=kwertii@c-67-180-202-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*INITIALISING < 1261503132 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261503134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I seem to recall that the functioning of neurons did kinda rely upon quantum mechanics (though I may be wrong in that). ... Of course, "rely upon quantum mechanics" is quite different from "QUANTUM MEANS ITS TRUE." < 1261503134 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INITALISATING < 1261503153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything relies upon quantum mechanics. :P < 1261503169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... True. :P < 1261503230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyways... < 1261503300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda meant something like "work in ways only explained by quantum mechanics, not by classical mechanics". < 1261503384 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1261503402 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say that [random word] is quantum mechanics < 1261503439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x is quantum mechanics" really doesn't mean anywhere near as much as people think it does. < 1261503465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh no, the probabilistic effects of individual particles makes a difference!" < 1261503697 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503712 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503714 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261503763 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261503808 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, ehird < 1261503819 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define a soul as a sign that a person is a dualist < 1261503825 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in an idiot < 1261503835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think a soul exists you're a dualist, obviously < 1261503835 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a soul dualist (they believe more than 1 soul exists in a body which is insane) < 1261503836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the definition < 1261503843 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he a dualist dualist < 1261503845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual = 2, not >1 < 1261503846 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an idiot dualist < 1261503852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, he's asiekierka being annoying < 1261503855 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soul dualism or a dualistic soul concept is a range of beliefs that a person has two (or more) kinds of souls. < 1261503911 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261503914 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took it from wikipedia < 1261503917 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not bother googling < 1261504003 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you're right re: quantum brain stuff. cf Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR#The_quantum_level < 1261504055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that's not the same thing < 1261504076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :penrose just hates the idea of an algorithmic brain < 1261504084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq was just talking about how neurons physically work < 1261504120 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: their theory talks about that, too. they postulate that microtubules in neurons, whose function is unknown, actually conduct quantum-level calculations < 1261504162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like grasping at straws to avoid a deterministic, algorithmic mind. < 1261504163 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the observation that information propagates through the brain far faster than a chemically mediated neural network would allow < 1261504380 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261504493 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if people do have algorithmic minds, then 99.999999999% of them are seriously broken. < 1261504508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fallacy < 1261504516 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :observation < 1261504516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minds are algorithmic != minds can be irrational < 1261504524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmic does not mean we are bayesian rationalists. < 1261504525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##philosophy < 1261504528 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say that it implied a contradiction < 1261504533 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an empirical observation < 1261504543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our minds are not broken, they are just adjusted to different things than we might want them to be < 1261504578 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: how do the Goedel and Tarski incompleteness theorems fit into your model? < 1261504629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't have a deterministic, algorithmic mind, then we have a random mind. I don't see how quantum randomness is likely to affect something on the scale of neurons, though < 1261504638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gödel, Escher, Bach had some stuff about that, positing that sentience arises from Gödel's incompleteness theorem < 1261504646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure about that < 1261504648 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, do something < 1261504653 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this philosophy talk hurts < 1261504658 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own bra---oh wait < 1261504663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll encourage them to talk more < 1261504670 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an attempt to make my brain blow up < 1261504686 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: sadly this stuff is mildly on-topic < 1261504689 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone would prefer to discuss brainfuck coding, I will yield the floor :p < 1261504700 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261504709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to discuss PSOX (*everyone runs*) < 1261504715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: if you hate 90% of what goes on in this channel why do you stay :) < 1261504737 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for better excuses to ban you all < 1261504758 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION laments the fact that lament wants to ban us < 1261504789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there must be an op here stupid < 1261504833 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: essentially, Tarski proved a more general version of Goedel, that any logically coherent system capable of defining its own syntax is incapable of defining semantic notions such as "truth" itself, necessarily requiring extrinsic stipulations. This would seem to imply that a purely logical and deterministically algorithmic brain is impossible, given that we have such notions. < 1261504968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said that are brains are purely logical? < 1261504979 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ehird < 1261504983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deterministically algorithmic does not imply logical < 1261505006 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: interesting, please clarify how a system can be deterministic without being logical < 1261505046 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION might have misread. Thought that you were implying that people were logical, not the system < 1261505056 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505067 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh my other connection is lagging out < 1261505069 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, my own personal position is that people are mostly irrational :) < 1261505104 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see /msg < 1261505125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261505133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: fizzie is an op stupid < 1261505137 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what does rationality have to do with logic < 1261505143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everythingg. < 1261505146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Everything < 1261505147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: this channel needs more than one op stupid < 1261505153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261505158 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: euh? < 1261505158 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thanks to offtopic derailers like thou < 1261505161 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: and mii < 1261505172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: except op powers are very rarely used < 1261505184 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a T-shirt that says "What does rationality have to do with logic" now < 1261505189 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: well what does it? < 1261505200 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: please define rationality and see for yourself that it's not much. < 1261505215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationality is applied logic < 1261505243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: according to commonly used definitions and mores, ehird is correct, rationality is logic applied to some decisionmaking process < 1261505279 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: etymologically, rationality is "that which has to do with ratios", which are (logically defined) mathematical constructs < 1261505393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION becomes a fervent supporter of fractionism < 1261505409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what does it mean "to apply logic to a process"? < 1261505411 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you're the one who told us to fuck off to ##philosophy < 1261505430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you dragging us into less and less meaningful and concrete realms? < 1261505455 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please everyone calm down, mkay? < 1261505474 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now shake each other hands. Without holding one of those prank buzzers < 1261505486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO. WE HATE BEING CALM. < 1261505500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Prank buzzers? < 1261505507 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yeah < 1261505512 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the correct name < 1261505517 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: to make an attempt to analyze a process in an internally consistent (i.e. not self-contradictory) manner consistent with the rules of logic.. < 1261505518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I'll use an industry-grade buzzer. < 1261505518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: little electric shock thingy you hold in your hand < 1261505527 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no you don't ;P < 1261505537 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: BUT. WHAT. IS. "LOGIC" < 1261505555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: well, ok. You don't need any notions of truth for that. You just need a notion of consistency. < 1261505559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer lethal buzzeers. < 1261505559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes, I know. < 1261505561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHAT IS A "CONTRADICTION" — REALLY < 1261505562 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261505565 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*n=ehird@91.105.101.* < 1261505566 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261505580 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: who said you need a notion of truth? :p < 1261505594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261505596 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you did, when you were talking about Tarski < 1261505605 0 :ehird!n=ehird_@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505607 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*n=ehird@91.105.101.* < 1261505612 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 2 + 2 = 5 is a logically consistent but false statement < 1261505614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: interestingly enough, I know how to change my username. < 1261505641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 + 2 = 5 isn't logically consistent given PA :P < 1261505665 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the essence of the Tarski/Goedel proofs is that there are statements like "This statement is false" which are syntactically consistent but which cannot be evaluated for truth value because they are paradoxical < 1261505682 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sure. but truth value is irrelevant to rationality by your definition. < 1261505693 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I said extrinsic, not irrelevant < 1261505702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b %*!*@91.105.101.* < 1261505706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster_ < 1261505742 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: my original point was that the brain could not be purely logical, as ehird suggested, because we have these very relevant notions like truth that cannot be logically defined and must be extrinsic to any logical system < 1261505796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: "truth" is a very high-level notion and there's little evidence that it actually exists in the brain as such < 1261505816 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: on the other hand, bayesian probability gives a very good model of how such a notion could be constructed mathematically < 1261505844 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more, there's experimental evidence that shows that bayesian probability is pretty much how actual humans evaluate truth < 1261505861 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: sure, but you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "true" to train your bayesian model.. < 1261505923 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "likely" < 1261505942 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exact label doesn't matter < 1261505958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does if you're going to confuse the notions of likelihood and of truth in the formal logic sense < 1261505969 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an evolutionary sense, we can say the brain trains statistically on survivable behaviors based on the environment < 1261505986 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a longer timeframe, genes do the same < 1261506009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that's reasonable, and has nothing to do with formal logic whatsoever < 1261506018 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we are still left with the question of "pure" truths like 2+2=4 that are divorced from the environment, or at least seem to be < 1261506155 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're in the business of making machines that run programs, this is a very important question. how do we distinguish 2+2=4 versus 2+2=5? < 1261506220 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506221 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506333 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506378 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg < 1261506411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261506422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261506433 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :atrapado!n=roper@130.102.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506526 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament : :D < 1261506543 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I hate Haskell < 1261506599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! You shall not hate Haskell! < 1261506604 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1261506623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs a cloak and dagger. < 1261506641 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something tells me that pic was made by a haskell fan :) < 1261506643 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't tell God about your hatred either. he might smite you. < 1261506663 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a completely legal cloak and dagger. < 1261506683 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't get all of the cells, though < 1261506695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that means that the word "and" means its legal sense, "i.e.". It's a single object that's both a cloak and a dagger. < 1261506744 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261506846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b %*!*@91.105.101.* < 1261506852 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL < 1261506902 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1261507038 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL <-- hahah < 1261507106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: nice < 1261507158 0 :ehird!n=ehird_@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261507193 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole idea is rather ridiculous.. there's an obvious conflation of the languages and those who use them, and attempts at illustrating the former look rather flimsy < 1261507227 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: er.. I think it's a joke :p < 1261507242 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEEDS MOAR QUALITY < 1261507261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the haskell one where they're all einstein is the superior one < 1261507279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole joke is that what people hate about haskell is what haskellers love about it < 1261507294 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where is the Lisp column? < 1261507301 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg < 1261507316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it's more funny but it's hardly an unbiased comparison :) < 1261507325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/6823906156 what < 1261507329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: nor is the other image :P < 1261507348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: lisp is (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( for everyone but lispers; they have a guru meditating < 1261507356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fail at spelling too < 1261507358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1261507362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is unreadable < 1261507367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for haskellers lisp is, uh, something else < 1261507367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to me) < 1261507376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for haskellers lisp would be yet another train wreck < 1261507385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the babel tower? < 1261507385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Haskell people, Lisp is a Rube Goldberg machine. < 1261507391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about erlang? < 1261507407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: translation from twitterfied retardese to retardese: "Earth saw climate change for eons; will continue to see changes. Our duty is to responsibly develop resources for humankind and not pollute and destroy, but you can't alter natural change.@ < 1261507409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*change." < 1261507419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: erm no < 1261507428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is universally acknowledged as minimalist, well not common lisp okay, but still < 1261507431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty much a Haskell person; when I look at Lisp, I think, "Aiee! Side effects! Incomprehensible evaluation semantics! That's not a REAL functional programming language!" < 1261507434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a rube goldberg machine < 1261507447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't get the black box for php fans / haskell < 1261507447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp's evaluation semantics are trivial < 1261507452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's a Rube Goldberg machine made out of hundreds of copies of a single device. :-P < 1261507457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: look up black box < 1261507458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I'm a Haskell person! I don't know that! < 1261507469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, flight recorder < 1261507471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/ahixe/twitter_account_of_a_9_year_old/c0hl7ey?context=1 < 1261507473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes also < 1261507473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa; hivemind. < 1261507474 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: when Lispers look at Haskell, we think, "Ah, a convoluted subset of some of the stuff Lisp can do, but with a more obtuse syntax" :p < 1261507479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something you can't see how it works inside < 1261507507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is a superset of lisp actually < 1261507518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, hmm, no < 1261507520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're equal < 1261507526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also poor that tron person who has been used for "mad mad nerd" everywhere < 1261507529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming haskell includes template haskell < 1261507551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different type system, Haskell enforces purity, and rather different syntax. < 1261507584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Haskell goes for "readability", rather than "trivial parsing") < 1261507587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, I'm itching for some OSery. < 1261507589 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a tree falls in a forest without side effects, does it make a sound? < 1261507599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp is readable enough, I just don't find it so writable < 1261507615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, but readability is not what it's optimised for. < 1261507632 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: emacs autoindent and auto-paren matching helps immensely < 1261507644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: I've used paredit, don't think I'm ignorant of Lisps. < 1261507659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stand by what I said, though. < 1261507667 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you think it's hard to write, you're doing it wrong. let the computer worry about the hard part < 1261507680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans. < 1261507698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still stand by my informed opinion. :) < 1261507700 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the ability to define infix operators in Haskell is a great feature. I think Lisp doesn't exactly have that feature. < 1261507704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your editor needs to be that freaking smart just to make the editing tolerable, the syntax sucks. < 1261507706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the parens that make it difficult, btw. < 1261507761 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you could write infix operators in a DSL with macros if you really wanted to... < 1261507783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that argument is akin to the Turing-Equivalence Argument for Language Irrelevance < 1261507795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can do that, but it's Bad Lisp and the Lispers will verily Kill You with Forks and Pitches Thereof < 1261507805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, you write infix operators as follows: foo & bar = -- code here < 1261507805 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, why would you want to? is my point < 1261507814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so let's examine that argument structure < 1261507818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I like to be able to do X." < 1261507823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: foo `bar` baz = -- code here < 1261507833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lisp can do X if you don't care about conventions at all. This demonstrates my point that you wouldn't want to." < 1261507840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that...doesn't really make sense at all < 1261507846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or (&) foo bar = -- code here, or bar foo baz = -- code here! < 1261507849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Which is more readable: 2 + 2, or (+ 2 2)? < 1261507861 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: rather, he said he didn't think Lisp could do X. I clarified that it can. (with tangential side comment about why would you want to) < 1261507862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, that is the desugaring. < 1261507871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math notation arguments are silly. < 1261507884 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I already said that I like to avoid parentheses for grouping? < 1261507885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not hard to read parenthesised prefix mathematical notation. < 1261507895 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is whether prefix notation is better elsewhere. < 1261507921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Well, technically it *can't* do X. < 1261507921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, it's not the math that makes it absurdly difficult.... < 1261507921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make (2 + 2) work without modifying the compiler (which is cheating) < 1261507923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just takes a bit of getting used to. < 1261507927 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I actually prefer a unitary syntax. instead of foo(x, y) and x foo y and xfoo, there's just (foo x y). < 1261507934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans aren't (made (to (figure (out (what (the correct (number (of parentheses is.)))))))) < 1261507935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make (infix 2 + 2) work, but that isn't the same. < 1261507944 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sure it can. macros allow you to rewrite the language at runtime. if you want infix notation, you can have it < 1261507946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: rubbish argument < 1261507949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :editors can do that < 1261507954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, let's have a legit debate about lisp < 1261507957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a schoolkid one < 1261507963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the default arguments are stunningly borring < 1261507964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*boring < 1261507974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like there's more to my argument than you countered. < 1261507979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you can't make (2 + 2) work unless you wrap it in a macro of some sort that walks the code tree < 1261507990 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ....so? < 1261508011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you cannot implement infix operators in Lisp. < 1261508019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, take this: (a (b (c (d (e (f (g (h (i (j (k l))))) m)))))) < 1261508025 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which function is the one taking three arguments? < 1261508025 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: macros that walk the "code tree" are part of Lisp by definition < 1261508029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you use the Lispers' retarded definition made so that they can claim it's possible. < 1261508034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Yes. That's not the point. < 1261508045 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: plus, you get -10 points each for the ad hominems and appeals to boringness :p < 1261508075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ad hominem? < 1261508075 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: copypaste to emacs, meta-q and you can see that instantly < 1261508078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did I insult *anyone*? < 1261508092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need a new fallacy, ad ad hominem. < 1261508095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels like a mad scientist < 1261508096 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, so with the correct software, it's perfectly readable. < 1261508117 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 10:47a member:kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans. < 1261508140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: a . b . c . d . e . f . g $ h (i . j (k l) m -- That? < 1261508142 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is already perfectly readable without any software: a . b . c . d . e . flip f m . g . h . i . j . k $ l < 1261508154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. h (i . j (k l) m) < 1261508166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that is not what an ad hominem is < 1261508173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: or something like that, yeah. < 1261508173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: furthermore, you ignored the line after in that quote < 1261508177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fundamentally changes its meaning < 1261508194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., your quote, though snappy and, at face value, appealing, contradicts my experience. < 1261508208 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you argued that I was merely parroting typical slogans, ie. that I did not really understand what I was saying and was just repeating something because it was fashionable, thus insulting me rather than speaking to the content of my argument. < 1261508211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by saying I used to say it too, I was informing you that no, I'm not some lisp-ignorant newbie < 1261508219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: That was not my intention. < 1261508270 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: perhaps a better word choice would help to make your intentions clearer, then < 1261508290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: As I have just explained what I said in longhand, I do not think that is necessary. < 1261508311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if we had a language in which we had to state our points clearly rather than connoting them. < 1261508315 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally, this is impossible. < 1261508342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, what I said was perfectly reasonable. < 1261508380 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I hear this Leibniz guy has a "calculus" that he developed for the purpose of resolving all disputes in a logical manner without emotional encroachment. he says it'll even solve religious and political questions. let's all use that! < 1261508422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Out of curiosity, does Lisp have a type system that makes most bugs disappear? < 1261508437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: careful < 1261508444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have plenty of bugs in haskell < 1261508450 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: err... no. no language that I'm aware of has a type system that makes most bugs disappear :) < 1261508451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just harder to detect thus making you think you have less < 1261508466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just call me the reasonability referee :P < 1261508485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: "Most". Huge swaths of types of bugs are very tricky to make... < 1261508499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but they're boring, easily-fixed ones. < 1261508501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's a bit of a "meh". < 1261508519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to advocate the type system, advocate from the angle that it increases expressivity (which it does). < 1261508524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an addition, not a restriction. < 1261508526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boring, easily-fixed, tedious, and still difficult to find one. < 1261508537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/one/ones/ < 1261508542 0 :olsner!n=salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261508567 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: common lisp and some other lisps have optional type declarations for optimization, and as always, if you really want a hard type system, you can write one yourself. < 1261508575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, yes, it also increases expressiveness so very nicely. < 1261508593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: *facepalm* < 1261508614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, yet another "LISP CAN DO THAT! notthatyouwanttoCOUGHbutiwontjustifythispartbecauselispcandothatCOUGH" argument < 1261508638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and C can do lambda. That doesn't mean that C is a functional programming language. < 1261508689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, be careful with the requires-editor-equals-bad argument, haskell strays dangerously close to that < 1261508714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... How so? The only tricky bit is the indentation, and that's not too hard. < 1261508718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not to mention optional) < 1261508735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the indentation takes up most of my time when coding haskell in a non-tailored editor < 1261508759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an aligned { foo = bar, newline, tab tab tab oops a bit too many backspace backspace , quux = < 1261508759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try using braces? :P < 1261508765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: non-idiomatic < 1261508767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ugly < 1261508775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1261508782 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are braces ugly in other languages? < 1261508793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Python. :P < 1261508812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does indentation also take up most of one's time when coding Python in a non-tailored editor? < 1261508822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1261508842 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the editor argument is kind of specious. I'm sure in 1955 some computer scientists were having the same argument about whether using a language that requires a compiler to be able to create programs was a negative point. < 1261508846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the same is true of any language where indentation is idiomatic... < 1261508848 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I wouldn't notice these things, as I use Notepad for everything. < 1261508880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, not probably < 1261508895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python, it's always a multiple of one indentation width < 1261508898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since haskell aligns, not so < 1261508905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is a bitch if you're not using emacs or yi < 1261508928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find a rather good example of Haskell's type system making things nicer to work with... < 1261508938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to have to go with Parsec. < 1261508953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, monads are a great example of something you can't really do properly without strong types < 1261508963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and parsec is an excellent example of monads < 1261508983 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've written a bunch of code in both static and dynamic languages. in my experience, there's very little difference in terms of avoiding bugs but on the other hand I have to introduce 50 million type casts or equivalent all over the place in the static languages. < 1261509006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: ... Which static languages have you written in? < 1261509019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing ones with C-like type systems. < 1261509020 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my coworker has notoriously bad spelling < 1261509022 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: C and Java, mostly, and a few other minor languages < 1261509032 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's having to use javascript right now and really suffers < 1261509035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weak static typing, then. < 1261509037 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he can't spell the variables consistently < 1261509048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which in javascript means hard-to-debug runtime errors < 1261509057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever heard of "type inference"? < 1261509079 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Java's strong-typed < 1261509089 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: not really. < 1261509094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: < 1261509096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Not really. < 1261509100 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever strong typing means, java is probably not it < 1261509112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that you need to cast things to Object to do anything :) < 1261509133 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it is :p *watches as 5 people simultaneously edit the Java (programming language) article to change that* < 1261509134 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you're criticising haskell's strong typing based on java, just... give up < 1261509192 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I didn't say anything at all about Haskell < 1261509201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole argument is about haskell vs lisp < 1261509221 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: er.. no, I haven't mentioned Haskell once, actually, since I know almost nothing about it. < 1261509236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well everyone else has been arguing about Haskell vs Lisp. < 1261509237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of one good argument for dynamic typing < 1261509254 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes it easier to change the design of the program as you're writing it < 1261509273 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes, exactly < 1261509295 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without it, you have to go through and change the 50 million casts everytime you make a design change < 1261509299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell lets you do that too; you just have to change the way the program is structured to account for it < 1261509307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, NONE of us is arguing for java < 1261509319 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: 50 million casts are not a typical feature of static typing. < 1261509327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a typical feature of Java. < 1261509337 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why java sucks so bad < 1261509343 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing in C < 1261509351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it's also why C sucks so bad < 1261509361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once, when I tried to write something in Haskell, the typing got in the way. < 1261509362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is particularly bad when it comes to the type system < 1261509370 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only oncce. < 1261509379 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does strong typing without casting (like Haskell, presumably?) buy me as a coder? < 1261509392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A whole hell of a lot. < 1261509409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the ability to reason about the program and its constituent parts better. < 1261509425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: for example, given a type signature of a function, you can often tell what the function does. < 1261509447 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1261509457 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I've never really had a problem with that in a dynamic language.. and how does that differ from, say, Java or C on that point? < 1261509470 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509483 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck writing a function with signature (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] in C or Java < 1261509493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it in java, with generics... shudder < 1261509505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's (a -> b) in Java? < 1261509505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this argument will probably only end if we either give up or we end up teaching you all of haskell < 1261509514 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: please pardon my ignorance of Haskell syntax. what does that mean? < 1261509518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system really is totally different in haskell < 1261509525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this type signature is of the function map < 1261509526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Func or Func I forget < 1261509528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: do you know map? < 1261509533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming Func is a genericed class with < 1261509536 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-26-44.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B call(A x); < 1261509538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261509540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261509542 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I know the Lispish function map.. is that what you mean? < 1261509545 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yes < 1261509549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do the ugly new Func(){{ thingy < 1261509554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to write a parser as follows: toplevel = do {x <- sepEndBy expr space;eof;return x};expr = choice [comment,sexp,string "" >> return Null];comment = do {string ";;";skipMany (noneOf "\n");return Null};sexp = List <$> between (char '(') (char ')') (choice [token, sexp, comment] `sepBy` spaces);token = Node <$> many1 alphaNum < 1261509558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible, just awful < 1261509560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not a closure < 1261509566 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in lisp, map takes a function and a list of stuff, and applies a function to each element of the list < 1261509568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only access final (immutable) vars from the upper scope < 1261509575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map has been done in java < 1261509582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://functionaljava.org/ < 1261509585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as monads < 1261509587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but jesus is it ugly < 1261509595 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell, map takes a function that converts values of type a to values of type b, and a list of values of type a < 1261509601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and produces a list of values of type b < 1261509619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] says < 1261509646 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ok.. so does this buy me anything over Java, other than syntactic sugar? < 1261509648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler ensures that there won't be type errors as you apply it. < 1261509667 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: there's no sane map in Java, you'd need a for loop or something < 1261509669 0 :atrapado!n=roper@130.102.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you cannot express that function in java < 1261509678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it if you let (a -> b) be a function < 1261509680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler ensures that there won't be any other affects of the function. < 1261509680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a closure < 1261509687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, literally, impossible in Java < 1261509690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *effects < 1261509709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a function with other effects would be: (a -> b) -> [a] -> IO [b]) < 1261509718 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509718 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509724 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261509734 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what would be fun? < 1261509746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that you give a type signature, and it tries to find out if it's doing something evil < 1261509752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> IO b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1261509753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL! < 1261509755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> b < 1261509756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL! < 1261509767 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than closing over variable bindings, you can write a Java fn that takes, say, a typed array and an anonymous method and applies it to produce an array of a guaranteed return type.. can't you? < 1261509784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: technically, yes, with five pages of code < 1261509796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, you can, but there's a reason nobody does it < 1261509798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has other tricks up its sleeve, though, and not just convenience-related ones < 1261509815 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's very much going against the grain of the language < 1261509816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Can you also ensure that there the function does nothing else, by merit of seeing nothing other than the type signature? < 1261509833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, typeclasses handle both java's generics AND a good portion of problems usually solved with OOP < 1261509839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and Java interfaces too < 1261509841 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yea, I'm not arguing that Java doesn't suck, I'm just trying to learn about Haskell. < 1261509845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So... yeah." < 1261509855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what pikhq said is a big selling point < 1261509862 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so Haskell forces you to declare whether there are side effects? < 1261509866 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261509868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sort of < 1261509872 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of cool < 1261509872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does, but it's not a language feature < 1261509878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything with side effects is of type IO a < 1261509914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it not only forces you to declare it, but it verifies it during type-checking < 1261509922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addFromInput :: Integer -> IO Integer < 1261509922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addFromInput n = do m <- imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger < 1261509923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return (n+m) < 1261509934 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: or rather, it doesn't force you to declare it, it just verifies it :) < 1261509935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more succintly, addFromInput n = imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger >>= (n+) < 1261509946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the important thing to realise is that "IO a" isn't just a silly tag applied to a < 1261509957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, IO a doesn't mean "a, but with some side-effects" < 1261509958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell you don't usually have to declare types at all, because the compiler figures them out itself < 1261509977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means "some IO thingies that, when run on a side-effecting computer, produces a value of type a" < 1261509979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: but a function with side effects and a function without side effects have different types, so you can't accidentally interchange them < 1261509990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, the language is 100% pure, no IO < 1261509996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens is that the haskell runtime system calls main() < 1261509998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, main < 1261510014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but think of it as main(), it's actually just a lazily-evaluated value, not a function of no arguments; they're equivalent in a lazy language < 1261510018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It then evaluates the result of main. < 1261510020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, it traverses the tree of IO computation < 1261510030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing each IO operation and feeding the result back in to the rest < 1261510049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this runs the program bit by bit doing IO as it goes instead of the whole thing at once because haskell is lazily evaluated; only runs computations that it absolutely needs to right now < 1261510062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why [1..] works; it's the same as 1:(1:(1:... < 1261510073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks like to haskell, which if you examine the head becomes 1: < 1261510081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you examine the head of the tail it becomes 1:(1:) < 1261510081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261510091 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:(2:(3:..., rather < 1261510104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, right < 1261510104 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very interesting < 1261510108 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers mixed with frowny faces < 1261510110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 1:(1:(1:... is fix (1:) < 1261510112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 :( 2 :( 3 :( < 1261510112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, finally, IO is actually a monad; which have nothing to do with side-effects at all, despite some mistaken conceptions < 1261510130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like the "do a; b; c" stuff and the >>= functions have nothing to do with i/o < 1261510131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm pretty sure you lost kwertii already < 1261510141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, even lists are a monad; the point is, you don't have to understand what a monad is < 1261510155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just trying to demonstrate that in haskell, side-effects aren't bolted on < 1261510160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they arise from other parts of the system < 1261510164 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't get the details, but it's interesting that the program is structured around the operations necessary to do IO < 1261510174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you don't have to understand the parts to do IO in haskell, though, it's easy) < 1261510180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm pretty sure that side effects ARE bolted on :) < 1261510191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well everything is bolted on if you use a silly definition < 1261510203 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261510203 0 :olsner!n=salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261510203 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261510207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, side effects aren't even part of the language. :P < 1261510212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that without lazy evaluation, and monads, it'd be more awkward; it's a happy coincidence that monads map to IO, but actually that just reveals the inner power and usefulness of monads < 1261510214 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something runs main < 1261510217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this "something" isn't haskell < 1261510218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how useful lazy evaluation is < 1261510220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's some bolted-on bit < 1261510227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well, yes, but that's not the sense I meant < 1261510231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that "IO" fits into the language < 1261510231 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh, Lisp can do that. *joke* < 1261510245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, it can't < 1261510273 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: blah, just learn haskell already :P < 1261510283 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are monad libraries in Lisp.. If you wanted to, you could write macros that would force programs to be structured like that.. *ducks* < 1261510289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the humanity < 1261510294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: everybody's favourite motivating examples: < 1261510329 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial :: Integer -> Integer < 1261510336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial n = product [1..n] < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isprime n = not . any (\p -> mod n p == 0) . takeWhile (\p -> p^2 <= n) $ primelist < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primelist = 2 : [p | p <- [3,5..], isprime p] < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this program gives a function, isprime, which tells you whether an integer is prime, and a list, primelist, which is an infinite-length list of every prime. isprime looks at primelist to find primes, and primelist asks isprime to add new primes to the list < 1261510368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it works < 1261510372 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibs :: Integer < 1261510373 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) < 1261510373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAZY EVALUATION IN YOUR FACE < 1261510382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament's is the same general idea, but with less head-binding < 1261510383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fibs) < 1261510422 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clojure has lazy evaluation < 1261510428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1261510432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: fibs :: [Integer] < 1261510439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whoops < 1261510442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1261510459 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are lazy eval libraries for Common Lisp... < 1261510478 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme has it builtin too < 1261510484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the same kind < 1261510486 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't < 1261510488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, everything is lazy < 1261510493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well it has promises which are ... half-similar < 1261510496 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'm not getting something. what does Haskell do that Scheme or Clojure don't? < 1261510497 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: give me an infinite list in Scheme < 1261510506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell, every single construct is lazy < 1261510513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implicitness makes it *far* more expressive < 1261510537 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: for example, the list of natural numbers in Haskell is [1..]. You can perform any list operation on it. < 1261510543 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: What's the Scheme equivalent? < 1261510546 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: streams are infinite lists in Scheme < 1261510548 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Common Lisp or whatever < 1261510554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: exactly, they're different things < 1261510556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the whole point < 1261510563 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not good at Scheme. but infinite lists are baked into Clojure < 1261510571 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: exactly, they aren't lists, and you can't use list operations on them < 1261510584 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: http://www.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/eval-order_themes-delay-stream-section.html#eval-order_streams_title_1 < 1261510601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i'm aware < 1261510623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Write the following: fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) < 1261510630 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cycle [1 2 3]) ;; infinite list of 1 2 3 1 2 3. ..... < 1261510632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he'll just use streams and a mass of (delay)s < 1261510656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what astonishes me is that kwertii is proving that he can't actually consider any language might be superior to lisp, because his brain just shows that it can be done in lisp < 1261510658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a trap! < 1261510659 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/Lazy_Fibonacci < 1261510675 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: -10 points, ad hominem < 1261510683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't submitting it as an argument < 1261510688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was merely making an observation < 1261510702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(defn fib ([] (concat [0 1] (fib 0 1))) ([a b] (lazy-cons (+ a b) (fib b (+ a b))))) < 1261510709 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not arguing for superiority at all. Just trying to wrap my head around what Haskell can do that Lisp can't. As I said, I know almost nothing about Haskell < 1261510715 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a direct equivalent of the Haskell definition < 1261510716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ... Eeeeew. < 1261510723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no language can do anything that lisp can't, at all < 1261510726 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so in haskell, it's the same thing, but statically typed < 1261510728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from super-tc languages < 1261510739 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so you know that it's a list of integers, and you know that no side effects are performed while evaluating it < 1261510744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except clojure isn't very lispy < 1261510747 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: without seeing the code < 1261510748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that "fibs" isn't a function. < 1261510749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact, it takes all these things from haskell < 1261510752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, low level register setting? < 1261510757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I don't need Haskell for that, this language that took it from Haskell has it!" < 1261510757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is literally just a list. < 1261510775 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I readily admit it's cool that you can instantly know whether a fn has side effects, and I like the idea of computing a program as a sequence of functions necessary to produce the desired IO. < 1261510816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or other.. low level C trickery? < 1261510826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves his hand around a bit < 1261510848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and yes you can do all this stuff in other languages, but in haskell it's the main way of working < 1261510865 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. correct me if I'm wrong.... Haskell is essentially a strongly statically typed version of Clojure? Is that a good way of looking at it? < 1261510871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the combination of all of them being part of the language leads to code that's more concise, and Haskellers find more readable, for a lot of tasks, practical and theoretical < 1261510882 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: with better syntax, yes < 1261510883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed the type system does eliminate a lot of bugs < 1261510886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sort of < 1261510889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: clojure isn't all lazy < 1261510892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has lazy lists < 1261510893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't lazy < 1261510900 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Lisp syntax, so we'll leave syntax aside :) < 1261510906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell's ubiquitous laziness is really fundamental < 1261510915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you could use Liskell. < 1261510918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT THAT YOU'D WANT TO :p < 1261510922 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, Liskell < 1261510926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't, it's crappy < 1261510935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better just use clojure then < 1261510936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just added parentheses and a different macro system to Haskell < 1261510940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former isn't really all that lispy < 1261510946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is worse than Template Haskell < 1261510946 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, a functional language similar to Clojure but with pervasive laziness and strong static typing < 1261510954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and monads. < 1261510959 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp has monads < 1261510961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, monadic IO is the language feature < 1261510965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = getContents >>= foo x >= putStr -- There, a program that filters stdin through foo x and outputs stdout. Lazily. < 1261510971 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can have them, more specifically. lots of libs for that < 1261510973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the typing is not just strong and static < 1261510975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: >>= not >= :P < 1261510981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: lisp doesn't use monadic io < 1261510986 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's very expressive, or tries to be < 1261510994 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you write macros in Haskell? < 1261510996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it is lament probably disagrees :P < 1261510999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yes, with template haskell < 1261511007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Haskell < 1261511008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: XD < 1261511011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As of version 6.10, Template Haskell provides support for user-defined quasi-quoters, which allows users to write parsers which can generate Haskell code from an arbitrary syntax. This syntax is also enforced at compile time. For example, using a custom quasi-quoter for regular expressions could look like this: < 1261511012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :digitsFollowedByLetters = [$re| \d+ \s+ |] < 1261511028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's a bit of a pain to write monads, and sure the syntax for using them isn't the most pretty, but the thiing is < 1261511030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1261511032 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: there's a kind of a goal to make the type checker do as much work as possible < 1261511036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of haskell's pervasive laziness and monadic IO < 1261511043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of things that would be macros in lisp... are functions in haskeell < 1261511046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haskell < 1261511052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what can be simpler than writing a function? < 1261511055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so many of "design patterns" elsewhere end up being types < 1261511064 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and their common features are abstracted < 1261511066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: oh, and if Java is your benchmark, note that you don't have to declare types in haskell < 1261511079 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: (monads are one such pattern) < 1261511095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do (let a = 3 in a+4) and it all works, you can even have (do c <- getChar; print (ord c)) (ord = unicode codepoint number of character) < 1261511095 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511105 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261511107 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. < 1261511110 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1261511119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people annotate the types of their top-level definitions, though (functions and other things) < 1261511123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's basically documentation < 1261511137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know a function's name as a type, you're like 90% of the way there to using it properly < 1261511142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*name and a type < 1261511149 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyone have any ideas on how to create a bittorrent like protocol that is more anonymous? < 1261511162 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but less so than freenet < 1261511166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you declare the type, of course it means if your function breaks the type (and thus compatibility) it complains < 1261511181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: maybe have the swarm act as a Tor-style network < 1261511189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except without exit nodes < 1261511193 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the info, guys, I am adding Haskell to the list of ∫things to look into. < 1261511194 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: too slow < 1261511198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, you can have a list of everyone participating in the torrent < 1261511201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not who did what < 1261511206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: fthings! < 1261511217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: http://www.lisperati.com/landoflisp/ < 1261511222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: oh god, not that comic :P < 1261511236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well be called Land of Uninformed Haskell Bashing (I know the author knows Haskell) < 1261511249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but he wildly misrepresents it in that comic; I wouldn't mind if people didn't use it in substitute of an argument quite often) < 1261511255 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i can't believe how retarded you are < 1261511263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you do decide on haskell, btw, Real World Haskell is the best place to start. < 1261511287 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thanks, I'll take a look < 1261511291 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-110.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your mind is tuned somewhere in the vicinity of tolerance of _why's style, http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ is in that area too < 1261511300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only covers the basics, but beyond that real world haskell works < 1261511315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hmm since I last checked it expanded < 1261511319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :covers a bit more than the basics then < 1261511325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still no monads though :-D < 1261511360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real world haskell is free online here http://book.realworldhaskell.org/) < 1261511511 0 :sebbu3!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-158.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511540 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: haha. awesome. < 1261511691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, I can't recommend LYAH enough. It doesn't cover the whole language, but what it covers it covers well. < 1261511707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: djinn doesn't know lists does it? < 1261511717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: djinn can't do recursive types. < 1261511736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :djinn isn't all that smart. < 1261511760 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261511762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: anyway, here's a haskell party trick < 1261511767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/query lambdabot and try these two lilnes < 1261511769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lines < 1261511771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b < 1261511772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1261511779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c < 1261511782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is < 1261511793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given f, a function taking a and returning b, and x, a default value < 1261511802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus m, which is either Just (something of type a) or Nothing, < 1261511816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either return (f (the thing in the Just)) or x < 1261511826 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&/ab < 1261511827 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261511828 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :failk < 1261511830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., it's "if there's a value in here, pass it through this function; otherwise, use this default" < 1261511830 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail* < 1261511845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one takes a function taking two arguments, and returns one that takes two arguments, but flipped < 1261511851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. f(a,b) = g(b,a) < 1261511866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr @djinn takes a type, and works out a function for you < 1261511876 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, copying 500 MB at 590 kb/s is irritating < 1261511879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, not any old type, but meh) < 1261511907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: summarizing ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_Isomorphism < 1261511916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1261511918 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if that doesn't get you excited about static types, nothing will :) < 1261511925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that haskell types *are* that < 1261511946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works for types of useful, concrete functions ;-) < 1261511953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, not that many, and it's not the most useful application of the isomorphism < 1261511956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sure is neat < 1261512045 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: where do you get x in those function definitions? < 1261512060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you use a name for a type, it doesn't mean that's the name for a variable < 1261512063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the function < 1261512071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: a -> a -> Integer < 1261512073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a b = 3 < 1261512083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both the arguments must be of the same type < 1261512087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what type it is can be any < 1261512099 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261512105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, a lowercase name as a type means "any type", but if you use it twice it's the same type < 1261512118 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I'm confused due to my lack of knowledge of Haskell syntax. You wrote "@djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b" and then started talking about x. I see no x < 1261512130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I was just giving names to the arguments < 1261512132 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the curry-howard isomorphism is a good example of an idea that's only possible when types are explicit < 1261512136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me restate it more verbosely < 1261512147 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: though of course it doesn't have much to do with programming < 1261512170 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: funny, I was just reading about automated theorem proving the other day. a very cool idea. < 1261512180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function takes values of the types < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) — "transformer". A function taking a value of type a, and returning a value of type b. < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b — "default". < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a — "container". < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and returns a value of type b. < 1261512185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it partly explains why there's a strong mathy flavour in the haskell community < 1261512188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing < 1261512199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a value of type (Maybe a) is of the form of either < 1261512202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just (a value of type a) < 1261512202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261512203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing < 1261512205 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, @djinn is an automatic theorem prover < 1261512207 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me of a pun.. < 1261512215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if "container" is a Just < 1261512220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: a very simple one admittedly, but the cool part is that it works on haskell types < 1261512228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the value from inside "container", and pass it to "transformer"; return the result. < 1261512233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, return "default". < 1261512243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of (Maybe a) as like this java < 1261512243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: please define "Maybe" and "Just" in this context < 1261512250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MyType foo = null; < 1261512254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MyType bar = new MyType(); < 1261512261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell this would be expressed as < 1261512266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: Maybe MyType < 1261512268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo = Nothing < 1261512273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar :: Maybe MyType < 1261512278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar = Just (makeMyType) < 1261512290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Just and Nothing are just constructors of Maybe < 1261512302 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "Maybe x" is either "x or nil" and "Just x" is "x, but not nil"? < 1261512313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see how you are confused < 1261512317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, (Maybe a) is a type < 1261512320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just x) is a value < 1261512324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of type (Maybe (type of x)) < 1261512347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously you can only write one or the other when the syntax expects a type or a value) < 1261512397 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just x instantiates a new x? < 1261512415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: help, I'm in a hole I dug and can't climb out < 1261512421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a question: know any open source photo manager or such. For doing stuff like grouping raw photos on exposure time and getting an overview of them < 1261512423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes x and wraps Just around it. < 1261512424 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no worries, I'll go read a Haskell book < 1261512426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: I tell you what, forget that @djinn invocation < 1261512428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one in ubuntu is laughably bad < 1261512432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fspot) < 1261512437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't understand it, focus on the other one, which just returns a function with the argument places swapped :P < 1261512448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yep. i suggest http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ to start with then going onto real world haskell, as i said < 1261512462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learnyouahaskell gets down to the practical stuff very fast, so you should grok Maybe soon enough if you read it < 1261512475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is written by a better teacher than I... < 1261512489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: write a program photoq(1) < 1261512498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512503 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the type of x is y, then Just x has a type of Maybe y < 1261512505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use the shell :-) < 1261512518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example use < 1261512522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias pq=photoq < 1261512526 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261512535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ photoq size foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261512543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pq size foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo.jpg: 1600x1200 < 1261512552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar.jpg: 640x480 < 1261512555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pq size foo.jpg < 1261512557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1600x1200 < 1261512569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION , master of theoretically pure solutions! < 1261512576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm actually I'd omit the trailing colon on the filenames < 1261512585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1261512593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd not really want to parse that, just call pq multiple times in a loop < 1261512624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by overview do you mean thumbnails? < 1261512631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so nautilus shows them :P < 1261512651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can query information about a group of photos identified by their thumbnails by selecting them and dragging them to a terminal after "pq theproperty "! < 1261512939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster summarily ignores me! < 1261513000 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261513075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261513082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1261513084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sorry I had to leave for a few seconds < 1261513088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i went all unix elitist on you < 1261513090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, due to not feeling weel at all < 1261513093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first as a joke < 1261513097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might have some flu < 1261513098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at the end started thinking it was pretty cool < 1261513099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261513102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261513105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pearl flu < 1261513119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mongoose flu! < 1261513127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoosh maybe < 1261513134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not at all < 1261513142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, tell me what i was referencing < 1261513152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I wasn't continuing it. < 1261513162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referencing "pearls before swine" < 1261513166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already typing that when you said pearl flu < 1261513174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, we have that idiom in Swedish too < 1261513177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1261513182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kasta pärlor för svinen < 1261513182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!hsoohw < 1261513212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally: throw pearls in front of the swines < 1261513232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261513234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1261513238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a shell script atl < 1261513240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm* < 1261513242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using exiftool < 1261513244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to read the data < 1261513253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well make pq a wrapper around exiftool < 1261513258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I just wanted to do something else < 1261513262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use my nautilus for thumbnails + drag and drop to terminal :P < 1261513266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution < 1261513287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know if that works in nautilus i think it doees < 1261513287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1261513290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does in os x anyway < 1261513326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wooshed over my head < 1261513330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is still wooshing < 1261513344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what did < 1261513347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261513349 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261513351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said pearl flu < 1261513354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pearls before swine < 1261513355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swine flu < 1261513366 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what "pearls before swine" is supposed to mean < 1261513376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant to the pun < 1261513396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pearls before swine refers to a quotation from the discourse on holiness, a section of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount, implying that things should not be put in front of people who don't appreciate their value." < 1261513404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like INTERCOURSE ON HOLINESS < 1261513407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is for i in *.MRW; do exp=$(exiftool "$i" | awk '/Exposure TimeExposure Tim/ {print $NF}'); mv "$i" "${i//.MRW/THM}" "${exp/\//_}" < 1261513409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; done < 1261513429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261513430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pfft, that only works for exposure! < 1261513431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus the typos < 1261513434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PQ PQ PQ < 1261513441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ $/d < 1261513468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes < 1261513495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also I need to sort it by motive this time < 1261513500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are not all in the same direction < 1261513504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is a motive < 1261513558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that was Swedishism maybe < 1261513570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what do you can the thing a picture depicts < 1261513574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Swedish it is "motiv" < 1261513583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motiv sounds like motif < 1261513589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uh < 1261513591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject? < 1261513595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what do you can the" < 1261513596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah maybe < 1261513603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language parser gave up there < 1261513603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oops < 1261513608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call* < 1261513609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just parsed the rest of the sentence < 1261513615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, s/can/call/ < 1261513619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject, probably— uh, do cameras give that information? < 1261513623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know they could identify shapes. < 1261513624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no they don't < 1261513625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which < 1261513631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is why I need a photo manager < 1261513636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so < 1261513642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXIF is extensible, right? < 1261513651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, doesn't change that my camera doesn't do it < 1261513654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there is MakerNotes < 1261513658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and neither can a photo manager < 1261513664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're going to have to enter the subjects yourself < 1261513666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the vendor can put whatever it wants < 1261513670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exactly < 1261513672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! make a field Subject < 1261513675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put the subject in < 1261513679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do $ pq subject ... < 1261513681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TADA < 1261513692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually my camera allows you to make short sound annotations < 1261513694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261513700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with it's built in mic < 1261513705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combine with speech recognition! < 1261513715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*snap* "Cat." < 1261513721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*goes on computer* < 1261513728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recognition failed. < 1261513732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FUCK!" < 1261513736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually here it was "section 1 of the panorama" "section 2 of the panorama" < 1261513737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1261513737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recognition succeeded. < 1261513740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fuck" < 1261513747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that last line is confusing. < 1261513750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's rewrite it: < 1261513751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Fuck < 1261513757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, that's still confusing. < 1261513768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that the computer recognises "fuck" but not "cat". Now laugh, fool. < 1261513772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261513779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fuck the cat? < 1261513784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"calling police" < 1261513796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hot cat-on-cat(1) action. < 1261513801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261513801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Meeeow." "Meeeow." < 1261513817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're so like me." "You're so like me." < 1261514026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, idea: make a program that can construct a partial 3D image given two photos from two different locations < 1261514031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the parallax < 1261514043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's called red and blue glasses < 1261514055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well no it isn't. I want a 3D model I can load into blender < 1261514064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be unlikely to work very well :P < 1261514066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is called "cheap-skate (sp?) 3D scanner" < 1261514099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember using a program that could do something like that, a long time ago < 1261514123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, oh? < 1261514128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it'd fail horribly e.g. on spheres < 1261514162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. You could only get an image covering a bit more than 180 degrees < 1261514165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't remember much, except you had to help it, I think by specifying points on both images that are supposed to match up < 1261514173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and yes it would be hard to detect a sphere < 1261514190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well yes that is given < 1261514196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect to have to do that too < 1261514206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261514207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1261514232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well that or give it the distance between the camera positions < 1261514232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1261514239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could automate point finding < 1261514241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1261514248 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261514250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are already tools to do so < 1261514255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used for panorama making < 1261514265 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261514274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify the algorithms a bit maybe to account for the now wanted parallax < 1261514283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have a point finding algorithm < 1261514286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1261514341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to play around with debian sid < 1261514420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders saying "tried it years ago" but decides not to < 1261514431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I've used it before. < 1261514437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just feel like some Debian tinkering. < 1261514443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. I just said I decided not to say it < 1261514465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, clearly the metric is how young you are when you first used it. < 1261514466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I'm aware of the issue in that sentence, thank you very much) < 1261514467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, I win. < 1261514473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no issue < 1261514475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm. 12 or so < 1261514478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 13 < 1261514480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1261514484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, sid? < 1261514489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like doing drugs when you're 4 < 1261514495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I tried red hat when I was 11 < 1261514496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU HAVE NO CONCERN FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH < 1261514500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red hat 5.something < 1261514507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red hat is like, uh, something bad < 1261514511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :came on a cd with some computer magazine < 1261514516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. But I didn't know that back then < 1261514520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that had RPM hell < 1261514529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried debian a bit later. sid too iirc < 1261514530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully nobody uses rpm these days < 1261514531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then slackware < 1261514537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the same way that nobody uses dpkg) < 1261514571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also wait a sec... < 1261514574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's like doing drugs when you're 4 < 1261514580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First distro I used was Slackware... < 1261514580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you like 14? < 1261514582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261514582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using sid at such an early age < 1261514588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 IS LIKE BEING 18 OKAY < 1261514590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be just as bad for you < 1261514595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but you said you used it before! < 1261514597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is when hard drugs become legal in Falsebekiztan < 1261514604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SHUT UP < 1261514613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR WORDS BOUNCE OFF ME THEY DO NOT HURT < 1261514636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this reminds me of a Marty Feldman (sp?) sketch < 1261514650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now using gentoo when you're 4, is like doing heroin before you're even conceived < 1261514658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed < 1261514659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuously < 1261514706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but I only started with gentoo when I was maybe 16 or so < 1261514709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 15 < 1261514719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember it was in late 2004 anyway < 1261514730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too tired to work out that < 1261514765 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261514773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, linode just became an appealing vps provider < 1261514778 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261514780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a facility in london < 1261514782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is my mouse suddenly slippery < 1261514786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's (a) fast, (b) low-latency < 1261514789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets something to clean it < 1261514805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if only their rates weren't kinda shitty < 1261514856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linode 19.95 $: 360 MiB of RAM, 16 G(i?)B of storage, 200 G(i?)B transfer < 1261514856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prgmr 20 $: 1024 MiB of RAM, 24 GiB of storage, 160 GiB transfer < 1261514896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, their performance is nice: http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison < 1261514959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inexplicably 32-bit is faster than 64-bit for smaller linode nodes, apparently < 1261514983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, memory usage? < 1261514999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant since he ran actual benchmarks, not single tasks < 1261515006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261515007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean < 1261515007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261515009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed-wise < 1261515010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison < 1261515015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linode guys said the same < 1261515022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1261515030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x86 performs better on smaller nodes (360) our experience." < 1261515033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not said by a linode guy < 1261515034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1261515036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yeah < 1261515037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1261515046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes it could be that more fits into ram there < 1261515051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't have a lot of ram < 1261515051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful < 1261515055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benchmarks don't tend to be huge < 1261515061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 360 MiB of RAM running linux? < 1261515071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so more can be cached < 1261515072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can surely fit an entire benchmark, it's not like it's a 3d rendering test or anything < 1261515076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, he ran several benchmarks < 1261515084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of which were not ram-intensive < 1261515095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, okay I saw postgresql there. Which would be cache-dependant in part < 1261515117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in-memory sqlite < 1261515120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, linode lets you install your own distro instead of just a predefined list < 1261515125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a nice thing about prgmr < 1261515126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about more fitting into cpu cache? < 1261515127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite tempting < 1261515130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *is* possibke < 1261515134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible* < 1261515138 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261515139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: look how drastic the differences are, though < 1261515151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most of the benchmarks, i686 blasts away x86_64 on linode < 1261515162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Django test suite on in-memory SQLite" x86_64 wins? < 1261515180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"most" < 1261515190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261515195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11" < 1261515198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway both are way over any other host < 1261515199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nothing of value was lost. < 1261515210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: which is better < 1261515221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261515223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well on most < 1261515228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261515231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the benchmark, confusingly :P < 1261515235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261515240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more importantly, linode is also among the most predictable < 1261515254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazon, prgmr and amazon are about as stable as each other, performance-wise < 1261515257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11" <-- long live that judge? < 1261515260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261515273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. amazon and prgmr 2. linode 3. rackspace < 1261515283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. slicehost (really really bad last place) < 1261515295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ehh < 1261515295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, are those patents important? < 1261515299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261515308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261515313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're shitty patents < 1261515314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? at what level? as in can't open saved files without it? < 1261515316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't have been granted < 1261515322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as in fundamental to the .docx format < 1261515325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in "can't use simne gui thingy" < 1261515328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all .*x < 1261515333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1261515341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what does the patent patent? < 1261515349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something like "using XML to do out-of-band formatting" < 1261515349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1261515352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have < 1261515353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1261515354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1261515356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have < 1261515361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format first N characters: bold and big < 1261515366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second < 1261515369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format N to N+foo: italic < 1261515370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that patents xslt < 1261515372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it? < 1261515374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1261515376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like < 1261515395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, using out of band formatting like that *is* shitty < 1261515398 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261515407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HiYo < 1261515420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that is a shitty way to specify it < 1261515427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the patent is too general; there was prior art; it shouldn't have been granted; software patents are abhorrent; patents are abhorrent; and the judge should have invalidated the patent < 1261515431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one sane would do it < 1261515435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a shitty result, but it still amuses me < 1261515451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's a difference beyond representation of the same data I think, I forget what though < 1261515456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261515459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just from memory < 1261515460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be wrong < 1261515472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yeah it was wrong but yeah it amuses me < 1261515503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, will they pay for using the patent do you think? < 1261515508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will they change format? < 1261515515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. < 1261515520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261515527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they will appeal again? < 1261515561 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261515561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll take the prosecution into a ditch at midnight, stab them repeatedly, cut their eyes out, slit their throat, rape them until they're unconscious, and tell them to drop it or they'll kill them. So the prosecution drops it, and Microsoft kills them anyway. < 1261515583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261515594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes similar maybe. but with suits < 1261515621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, out-of-court. < 1261515627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261515627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft is a psycopath. < 1261515631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*psychopath < 1261515648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261515649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that fails they'll just force the price down to peanuts. < 1261515670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I almost hope the other company will refuses such things < 1261515673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["we have been preparing for this possibility since the District Court issued its injunction in August 2009 and have put the wheels in motion to remove this little-used feature from these products. Therefore, we expect to have copies of Microsoft Word 2007 and Office 2007, with this feature removed, available for U.S. sale and distribution by the injunction date."]] < 1261515675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little-used? < 1261515678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft you are full of shit. < 1261515682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then they will die. < 1261515686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and microsoft will go ahead < 1261515699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about that person who owns it < 1261515705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be harder then < 1261515710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a company. < 1261515719 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye" < 1261515722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they could move it to the inventor in question? < 1261515723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1261515730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The patent is granted to the company. < 1261515731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well inventor within quotes here < 1261515741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what happens if the company dies? < 1261515748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or goes bankrupt rather < 1261515749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens if the inventor dies? < 1261515752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the patent expires. < 1261515758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1261515767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patents are shit anyway. < 1261515772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1261515781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be funny to use it to take down microsoft < 1261515804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really defeat such a large corporation in today's corporatist society. < 1261515810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, another large company could? < 1261515822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a group of them < 1261515830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be... bloody. < 1261515833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, IBM, HP, Dell, Intel combined < 1261515845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and yes it would < 1261515847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be suicidal for all those companies. < 1261515855 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261515859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, throw in maybe 3-4 more large companies? < 1261515862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel relies on Windows to make moneey. < 1261515865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*money < 1261515869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do Dell and HP. < 1261515879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM would be damaged, but probably not killed. < 1261515881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what if microsoft *did* go down. what would happen instead < 1261515887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple? < 1261515898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think society would ever let that happen. < 1261515907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well suppose it *does*. < 1261515911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a thought experiement < 1261515914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would happen < 1261515925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably Apple and Ubuntu would launch the biggest marketing campaigns they possibly could because fuck it, they have the rest of eternity to profit from the results. < 1261515938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1261515976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still, I suppose what could happen would be for MS to loose market share over a extended period of time < 1261515987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until it is less than 40 % or so < 1261515995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would just be Microsoft fading. < 1261515999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yah < 1261516001 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261516002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is already happening at a sub-glacial pace. < 1261516008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261516008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The outcome is boring and predictable. < 1261516014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Microsoft dying in one go? < 1261516015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and what is the outcome? < 1261516018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world collapses. No exaggeration. < 1261516023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that apple and linux replaces them? < 1261516025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every-fucking-thing in the world relies on Windows. < 1261516034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Society would probably collapse until it's resolved. < 1261516037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally the year of the linux desktop? < 1261516039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or a new competitor. < 1261516058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has been predicted for so long) < 1261516074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet some new competitor will emerge, probably based on Linux or something, but replacing X11 and all that, and with a Windows-style frontend. < 1261516079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drive letters and all that. < 1261516087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drive letters? < 1261516090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes < 1261516096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux being chosen only because it's a base that's stable and easy to build upon. < 1261516102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261516106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The masses require familiarity. < 1261516131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I also think apple would grow by a lot. Not taking a majority but at least 10-20% more or so < 1261516157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno man, most people won't pay that much for a computer. < 1261516158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also windows only needs one drive letter: c: < 1261516164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CD-ROMs < 1261516165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can mount other stuff in directories < 1261516167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cameras < 1261516170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261516175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure you can't mount those in directories ? < 1261516180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1261516184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The public knows filesystems as purely physical. < 1261516184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261516188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Folders and files are literarl. < 1261516194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*files are literal < 1261516198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't even use shortcuts, themself. < 1261516201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*themselves < 1261516204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well on macs they show up on the desktop, no? < 1261516207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever seen a Windows user create a shortcut? < 1261516217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: People are confused by Macs. < 1261516222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sit at one and have no idea how to do anything. < 1261516222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. My dad. created one for the floppy way way back < 1261516224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not joking. < 1261516232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay, but you get my point. < 1261516238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, he isn't a computer literate really. He knows two programs: word and SPSS < 1261516244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is some statistical thingy < 1261516250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and eudora (lol) < 1261516255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot eudora < 1261516257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he still uses it < 1261516266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A drive is a thing, either the computer (C: to you and I), a camera, or a CD-ROM." < 1261516290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION twitches at c: being the computer < 1261516291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A thing contains files, which are like letters or photos. You can put files into folders, which are like folders." < 1261516315 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261516403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo38 < 1261516407 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this a proper way to write a C code? It seems to work (is it portable?). struct _test_sizes { void*short_size[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; void*int_size[sizeof(int)>2?1:-5]; void*long_size[sizeof(long)==4?1:-5]; } < 1261516420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is portable and valid. < 1261516421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, to begin with I would use more newlines < 1261516428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stfu < 1261516428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes it looks portable and valid < 1261516434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's zzo38, he can code however he wants < 1261516437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec, sizeof test in there? < 1261516442 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is actual newlines in the actual code. But I pasted it here without newlines < 1261516459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Any reason for the -5s? < 1261516469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the -5 would be invalid code < 1261516469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, < 1261516473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's invalid < 1261516481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it should be invalid IMO < 1261516481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have foo[-n] < 1261516486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays must be of positive length < 1261516491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, your entire code is invalid < 1261516503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Array declarations must be have naturals. < 1261516511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1261516514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think what he's trying to do is make it fail to compile if those sizes don't match < 1261516514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... English is hard today, apparently. < 1261516520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in which case, I'd suggest doing < 1261516529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unless it is in a function and C99 < 1261516530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if sizeof(long)!=4||sizeof(blah)!=blah < 1261516531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, VLAs < 1261516534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error DING DONG < 1261516535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261516540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't use sizeof() in #if iirc? < 1261516545 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't use sizeof in preprocessor < 1261516548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I didn't say they must be constant. < 1261516551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1261516560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I see your intent < 1261516571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you could use gnu autoconf < 1261516578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NO < 1261516582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop destroying zzo38's artistry :P < 1261516583 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, struct _test_sizes is not used anywhere else in the program. It is defined and then ignored < 1261516588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, also relying on those sizes for short int and long in a program is damn stupid < 1261516598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so, we need a constant expression that is valid if a sizeof is correct, and invalid if it is incorrect < 1261516603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, as a whole, is correct < 1261516603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, for example I have 4 byte int and 8 byte long < 1261516611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I did it this way is because sizeof can't be used in preprocessor < 1261516636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if it works then use it, who cares about standards compliance for a lil hack :P < 1261516646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was joking about autoconf < 1261516646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1261516651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Might I suggest testing against the macros in limits.h? < 1261516652 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is standard compliant < 1261516658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i know that < 1261516662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the other ones, still < 1261516677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, very good idea < 1261516686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see pikhq's suggestion < 1261516695 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, long is used only by GLK, so I put #ifdef UI_GLK so that the long_size element won't be defined if UI_GLK is not set < 1261516735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no reason to break it if size varies. define some types like myuint64 or whatever < 1261516739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each size < 1261516746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you use C99, then use stdint.h < 1261516750 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it isn't standard compliant, please tell me why it isn't standard compliant. What I read in the book, is that you can use sizeof in constants and that this can use constant < 1261516754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if USHRT_MIN != 1<<(2*CHAR_BIT) - 1 < 1261516756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error DINGDONG < 1261516758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261516765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, doesn't that assume two-complement? < 1261516770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what if we have sign bit instead? < 1261516772 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261516772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Yes. < 1261516779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Actually, no. < 1261516781 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261516788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USHRT_MIN is the unsigned short type. < 1261516791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c requires 2-complement doesn't it < 1261516800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No. < 1261516800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, C doesn't iirc < 1261516806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1261516809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it wouldn't break with one complement I think. But what about sign bit < 1261516818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ushort < 1261516819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261516831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also that #error will give a syntax error < 1261516833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261516837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261516842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you want #error "DINGDONG" < 1261516847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261516881 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason I care that sizeof(short)==2 is so that */fwrite(rstack,sizeof(cell),0x100,fp);/* will be compatibility with all computers. However, I have to check endianness too. Possibly I can do something I have seen in somewhere else, use */if(elvis!=0xDEAD)/* for endianness check of the file < 1261516917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, err wait why do you need that sizeof(short) == 2 for that fwrite call? < 1261516931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise the file won't be readable on another computer < 1261516952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: system independent stdint.h dropin for C89/C90 compilers < 1261516954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write sizeof(short) inn the file < 1261516958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it can read like that < 1261516960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a huge mess of ifs and what not < 1261516960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1261516979 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have #define cell unsigned short < 1261516985 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you didn't know what "cell" was < 1261516997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anything wrong with typedef? Just wondering < 1261517003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And *this* is why UNIX tends to serialise things as text. :P < 1261517006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, nothing wrong with typedef < 1261517015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1261517031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, if you use C99 use stdint.h < 1261517035 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all structures other than struct _test_sizes I used typedef struct (name) { } (name) < 1261517038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise try to write some logic to find it < 1261517056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, thing is. that code is rather unportable. the case of short will probably work < 1261517068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anything above that you can't depend on < 1261517072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: he meant for typedef unsigned short cell; < 1261517074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to #define < 1261517075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially not long < 1261517082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yep < 1261517087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no big deal though < 1261517099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact cpp is probably faster than introducing a type alias to the c compiler < 1261517108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just find typedef cleaner, since for one thing that shows the typedefed type in gdb < 1261517115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IMO makes debugging easier < 1261517116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo is probably above debuggers :P < 1261517117 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261517122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, good point < 1261517130 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you would do, is if it makes a negative array error when you try to compile it, you change the #define cell to make it work, and then try to compile it again < 1261517150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, fun < 1261517158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: or even just pass -Dcell=... to the compiler < 1261517163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that would require that you do < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifndef cell < 1261517169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifndef cell < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define cell unsigned short < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261517170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261517187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoconf is dead; -D= is the new configuration system! xD < 1261517196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does compilers for cell processors define cell I wonder < 1261517201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261517206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it should be __cell__ or __cell or such < 1261517208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who knows < 1261517216 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess I should do #ifndef cell so that you can change it < 1261517219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and what if I had a computer named i?@ < 1261517222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i?" < 1261517225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that did #define i 1?" < 1261517228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WHAT THEN, BITCHES?" < 1261517228 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think probably compilers for cell processors might define CELL but not cell < 1261517237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, syntax error probably < 1261517240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: old macintosh compilers did #define macintosh, for some odd reason < 1261517251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ANY CODE NAMING A VARIABLE i IS UNPORTABLE < 1261517269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, :) < 1261517288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __' < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define _FORTIFY_SOURCE 2 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define unix 1 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define linux 1 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define _LP64 1 < 1261517292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debian-installer is nice < 1261517300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for desktops it's too involved; for servers, though, it's smoooth < 1261517304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, at least you can't name a variable unix or linux! < 1261517305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically the graphical interface < 1261517308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ha < 1261517316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a #define NO_SHITTY_DEFINES < 1261517322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which stops definitions like that < 1261517328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, -ansi? < 1261517335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1261517338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, -ansi removes them < 1261517339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fyi < 1261517340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logic would be simple < 1261517343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any variable all in lowercase < 1261517348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not preceded by _ < 1261517349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so does -std=c99 < 1261517350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is turned into < 1261517353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_SHITTY_DEFINE_(name) < 1261517365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it'd probably have to be a cpp command < 1261517367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#NO_SHITTY_DEFINES < 1261517368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, augh < 1261517380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, #pragma no_shitty_defines < 1261517381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1261517387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE < 1261517398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pragmas are generally lower case though < 1261517401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my fault < 1261517406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE < 1261517431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why don't we do #DEFINE then < 1261517448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from that that is probably a syntax error) < 1261517491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#YEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH < 1261517515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#pragma no-really-no-fucking-shitty-defines < 1261517535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about adding functions in the pre-processor < 1261517551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while we are at it < 1261517554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it more useful < 1261517569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the author of the synthesis OS suggested < 1261517625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just replace the damned thing? < 1261517634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out whether Stephen Fry will live to complete QI < 1261517641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To my surprise, I found that there are some things that were distinctly easier to do using Synthesis assembler than using C. In many of these, the powerful macro processor played an important role, and I believe that the C language could be usefully improved with this macro processor. One example is the procedure that interprets receiver status code bits in the driver for the LANCE Ethernet controlle < 1261517641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r chip. Interpreting these bits is a little tricky because some of the error conditions are valid only when present in conjunction with certain other conditions. One could always use a deeply-nested if-then-else structure to separate out the cases. It would work and also be quite readable and maintainable. But a jump-table implementation is faster. Constructing this table is difficult and error-prone. < 1261517642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So we use macros to do it. The idea is to define a macro that evaluates the jump-address corresponding to a constant status-value passed as its argument. This macro is defined using preprocessor "#if" statements to evaluate the complex conditionals, which is just as readable and maintainable as regular if statements. The jump-table is then constructed by passing this macro to a counting macro which r < 1261517644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're on the seventh letter, G, and it's been going for 75 months < 1261517649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epeatedly invokes it, passing it 0, 1, 2, ... and so on, up to the largest status register value (128)." < 1261517651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261517651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 10.71 months per letter < 1261517654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1261517661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pikhq ^ < 1261517678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, with 19 letters left < 1261517691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will take 203 and a half months for qi to complete < 1261517702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a little over 17 years < 1261517713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, who is that person and what is QI? < 1261517722 0 :FireyFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261517723 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I did: echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __' < 1261517723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, assuming stephen fry lives until at least 69 and doesn't find anything better to do in the interim, we're okay < 1261517736 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261517745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yes? < 1261517749 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got: _WIN32 _stdcall _cdecl _fastcall _X86_ WIN32 WINNT i386 _INTEGRAL_MAX_BITS < 1261517750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Stephen Fry is a British national treasure, hilarious, and the host of QI. < 1261517762 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :britain's favourite homo < 1261517762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well those with a single _ in front is no issue < 1261517767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that leaves < 1261517771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's on TV. He did some stuff with Hugh Laurie of House fame in the past few decades. But mostly he's hilarious. < 1261517772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIN32 WINNT i386 < 1261517774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as bad ones < 1261517776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: not saying much < 1261517790 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of competition < 1261517798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: QI is a comedy loosely disguised as a quiz show. < 1261517803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261517815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and where does the getting to letter G and such come into it < 1261517831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic premises being he asks a question, someone (usually Alan Davies) gives the obvious answer, sirens drone, he waffles on for a few minutes about the correct answer, and the episode ends with most players on negative points. < 1261517835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*premise < 1261517844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: one series = topics starting with that letter in the alphabet < 1261517848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261517883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, wikipedia sums it up in more words, but more eloquently, than I can and I should have just copy-pasted this to start with: < 1261517890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Most of the questions are extremely obscure, making it unlikely that the correct answer will be given. To compensate, points are awarded not only for right answers, but also for interesting ones, regardless of whether they are right or even relate to the original question. Conversely, points are deducted from a panellist who gives, "answers which are not only wrong, but pathetically obvious",[6] typically answers that are generally believed to be true but < 1261517890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not.]] < 1261517925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so that will take 'Q'-'G' number of episodes? < 1261517942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whut < 1261517952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if it was one letter per episode? < 1261517955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what did you mean < 1261517958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one letter per series < 1261517960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261517963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(season, whatever your country calls it) < 1261517964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long is a series? < 1261517980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, season % Swedish spelling < 1261517984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_QI_episodes#Series < 1261517994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should work out the average length of a series and go from there < 1261518011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just time/# of seasons < 1261518056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it seems to vary < 1261518076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first one three months, second one two months, third one three months, fourth one three months, fifth one three months, sixth one four months < 1261518081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seventh one four monthsh < 1261518122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so on average, 3.14 (!!) months per season < 1261518126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there was one series per year to begin with < 1261518132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later two? < 1261518141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well spotted < 1261518151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"QI is a 26-year-long project" says wikipedia anyway < 1261518154 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1261518158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261518181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fry should be 72 when it's finished < 1261518192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some chance of him dying, but not too great < 1261518198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large chance of him getting bored and doing sosmething else < 1261518222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Everything, Etc." < 1261518224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261518251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fingers and Fumbs" <-- that one was quite nice too < 1261518258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it good? < 1261518259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :episode 77: "Ganimals" < 1261518261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the series < 1261518262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1261518278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ganimals"... that's stretching it a bit I think.. < 1261518308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, animals starting with G. < 1261518313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Galimaufrey of Gingambobs" < 1261518318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain that one < 1261518321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the title I mean < 1261518324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has yet to be aired < 1261518332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261518341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1261518359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard thingambobs. < 1261518362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc you said it < 1261518372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what could Galimaufrey be a typo of < 1261518389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether his unix realname should be ehird or Elliott Hird < 1261518393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&ei=Ez4xS7PxOsui4QbGndGqCA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA4QBSgA&q=gallimaufry&spell=1 < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galimaufrey (Grose 1811 Dictionary) < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galimaufrey < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hodgepodge made up of the remnants and scraps of the larder. < 1261518398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261518407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A hotchpotch, jumble or confused medley." < 1261518414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my realname is ehird, then emails get sound out as ehird < 1261518427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1261518427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it depends how much I identify with ehird vs Elliott Hird < 1261518433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: unix real name field < 1261518437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261518439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*get sent out < 1261518441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1261518449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From: realname < 1261518451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well the sent thing explains a LOT < 1261518452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261518453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the unix mail system < 1261518459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wat < 1261518463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the sound be seriously confused me < 1261518467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/be/bit/ < 1261518467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :P < 1261518476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I manage very well either < 1261518499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i identify as Elliott Hird if you ask me what my name is... < 1261518516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other hand, I'd say "I'm ehird" on IRC or whatever if for some reason someone couldn't see my nick < 1261518520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even if they knew my real name too) < 1261518591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION changes format string < 1261518597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P < 1261518600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(temporarily < 1261518601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1261518613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just see <> for everyone, well I see myself due to different colour < 1261518619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a game where you get lines from an irc channel and have to identify who said them < 1261518628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I could manage zzo :) < 1261518636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet for recent chat in here (say 2008 onwards) I could get >70% accuracy < 1261518736 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try this one < 1261518749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i say 100% accuracy < 1261518750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P < 1261518756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh ooh < 1261518757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1261518759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament < 1261518767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament said "<########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P" < 1261519315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any English speakers: what is the past tense of seek? < 1261519340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sought. < 1261519414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1261519421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, seeked sounded so wrong < 1261519436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't English wonderful? < 1261519449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aye it is < 1261519622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone use Debian sid? < 1261519808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq? < 1261519810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or used, even. < 1261519825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, but I'm not very much here at the moment. < 1261519858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How likely is installing sid directly via netinstall from the http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ page to work? < 1261519871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Nah; when I used Debian for my desktop, I'd use testing with a few packages from sid. < 1261519881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And lastly, are all the mirrors equally up-to-date for sid, or just the *.debian.org mirrors, or just a few of them, or just the US one? < 1261519951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird spam: "50% of on luxary sex farm" < 1261519956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the typo was there < 1261519975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and already deleted < 1261520103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, well; I guess it's pretty likely to work, though I've usually just installed testing (probably etch on this box) with the devel/debian-installer version, then changed sources.list and aptitude-updated to sid. < 1261520165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for mirrors, I've used ftp.fi.debian.org exclusively, but never worried about up-to-dateness; I would guess it is quick to refresh, though. < 1261520189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think mirrorservice.org in the UK will be up to date as the official UK mirror? < 1261520303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just because a site is secondary doesn't necessarily mean it'll be any slower or less up to date than a primary site." Notably, they do not say that it will *not* be that, so... < 1261520338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, aren't mirrors supposed to sync on a specific schedule? < 1261520342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gentoo ones are < 1261520367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, every half hour such that the minutes modulo 30 is between 0 and 5 < 1261520389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that means between whole our and 5 minutes past and half hour and half hour + 5 minutes) < 1261520976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm sure there's some sort of guidelines for the primary mirrors (that have ftp..debian.org names), but the list has a bazillion "secondary mirrors" for which the requirements might be less strict. < 1261520988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261521022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mirror list says for primary mirrors just "They are all automatically updated whenever there are updates to the Debian archive." < 1261521066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the mirror submission form has a "frequency of mirroring" field that has the options "push-triggered", "twice a day", "daily", "less often", but I don't see that information actually listed in the list. < 1261521079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261521092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, push-triggered would be the fastest ones indeed < 1261521991 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261522039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders an FRP OS < 1261522151 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261522236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be... interesting. < 1261523195 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way? < 1261523287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. say you have < 1261523306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<> < 1261523319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do somefunc(that, X=foo, Y=bar) < 1261523323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get some binary data back? < 1261523350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it simply <> is the binary data when used as an expression? < 1261523412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm pretty sure you can pattern-match them, yes. < 1261523422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole point. < 1261523428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean can you produce binary through them? < 1261523443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so. < 1261523486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1> <<1:1>>. < 1261523486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<1:1>> < 1261523488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jury's out < 1261523493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you print in Erlang :P < 1261523547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io:fwrite( foo ) < 1261523614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3> io:fwrite(<<97:8>>). < 1261523614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aok < 1261523619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess everything's a-OK! < 1261523645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5> X=3, io:fwrite(<>). < 1261523646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^Cok < 1261523647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tee hee cock < 1261523680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes, it works that way. < 1261523743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you have to write it out twice or can you store it so it can somehow be used as a pattern matcher AND an expression? < 1261523746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the former < 1261523747 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too much of a big deal, I guess: < 1261523793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse(<>) -> {vars}. < 1261523808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse({vars}) -> <>. < 1261523811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it would be nice. < 1261523894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261523912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way? <-- you can use bit patterns both to construct and to match < 1261523915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1261523921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1261523922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One question though. < 1261523933 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have some binary format, and want parse(binary) -> {vars} < 1261523946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deparse({vars}) -> binary < 1261523953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I really have to write out the binary syntax thing <<>> twice? < 1261523989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. :/ < 1261524006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm... no you can use a macro. But I believe the left side of = vs right side of = is a big distiction < 1261524025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, macros are relatively clean in erlang < 1261524033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing they have a separate namespace < 1261524044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing will be macro expanded without a ? in front < 1261524049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ?MYMACRO < 1261524086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, gimme an example macro definition then? < 1261524312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec < 1261524340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-define(REGISTER_NAME, {global, ?SERVER}). < 1261524386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that define SERVER or REGISTER_NAME? < 1261524403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGISTER_NAME. < 1261524416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the global thing part of the expansion? < 1261524443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGISTER_NAME evaluates to {global, ?SERVER}, yes... < 1261524512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something < 1261524513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1261524537 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261524564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1> -define(PROTOCOL, <>). < 1261524565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* 1: variable 'PROTOCOL' is unbound < 1261524574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, thus why you asked the question. And it was answered... < 1261524617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the prompt seems to dislike statements beginning with a - < 1261524627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I asked the question but the answer only asked more < 1261524646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could very well see -define(FOO, {global, bar}) meaning "define FOO as a macro in the global scope with expansion bar" < 1261524649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair 'nough. < 1261524657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity that it doesn't. < 1261524667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd imply a much more flexible macro system. < 1261524676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macros in Erlang have file scope. < 1261524683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1261524724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's just "define FOO as a macro with expansion {global, bar}" < 1261524739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<...>> is called a bitstring, isn't it < 1261524755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261524770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261524774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an operator to concatenate them < 1261524785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you can do <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>> and get ab < 1261524797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, but I'm not sure what it is. < 1261524802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... It might actually be ++. < 1261524807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or f(<<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>) == f(<<97:8, 98:8>>) < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2> <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>. < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :** exception error: bad argument < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in operator ++/2 < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : called as <<"a">> ++ <<"b">> < 1261524890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the counterpart to header/prelude at the end of a format is < 1261524894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epilogue? < 1261525035 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261525140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postlude. < 1261525142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has to be! < 1261525233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, such a thing actually exists? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/postlude says so. Oh well, I guess it was too obvious a construction. < 1261526126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something <-- it was passed as parameters in an OTP behaviour < 1261526134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was globally registered < 1261526145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the otp gen_server I mean < 1261526172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1261526196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Gregor: either of you there < 1261526202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emergency < 1261526205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1261526268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as you may know, Mike Riley (author of rc/funge) is planning to commit suicide. I wonder if you, as living in US, could contact the relevant samaritans or whatever. < 1261526279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know he lives in Las Vegas, Nevada < 1261526291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that he is probably 39 or a bit more < 1261526324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you saying no to doing that? < 1261526345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doubting the feasibility of such a thing... < 1261526350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Las Vegas is freaking huge. < 1261526360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, problem is, they only seem to have phone numbers, not emails, and it seems I'm unable to call outside Sweden on my phone < 1261526371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well we know his name too < 1261526384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a high probability it is probably his real name < 1261526390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Additionally, I don't have much in the way of ability to call long distance. < 1261526398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, we also know he lived in Zurich some years ago