00:21:45 <3 ISIHAC 00:22:58 AnMaster: still here? 00:28:04 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:30:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:45:24 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:52:30 -!- jpc has quit ("goshdarnit."). 00:57:09 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:12:52 coppro, now I am 01:13:03 AnMaster: Partway throu 01:13:09 *through Unseen Academicals now 01:13:10 coppro, when you said that however I was away getting a haircut 01:13:16 ah, ok 01:13:44 book is thoroughly awesome 01:13:45 coppro, ISIHAC? 01:13:55 AnMaster: I'm Sorry I Haven't A CLue 01:14:09 * AnMaster tries to locate context of that 01:14:18 * AnMaster fails to do so 01:14:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Sorry_I_Haven%27t_a_Clue 01:14:50 coppro, as in "why did you mentioned it" 01:15:00 oh, because I was listening to it 01:15:03 ah 01:15:23 I think that was right around when "Milk, milk, lemonade" was concluded with "Triple vodka, you get laid." 01:15:25 coppro, conclusion: you live in UK? 01:15:30 AnMaster: negatory 01:15:38 there's this neat thing called the Internet 01:15:40 coppro, web radio? 01:15:47 yeap 01:15:57 Hmm... was I going for 'yep' or 'yeah' there? 01:17:18 you think I have an answer to that? 01:17:34 anyways, I'm not 100% on what the big change in UA to which you were referring is 01:17:45 though I have a guess, and it involves a capitalized pronoun 01:18:02 my runner-up involves an empty chair 01:18:03 coppro, huh? It should be clear really early on 01:18:09 oh yes empty chairs 01:18:10 indeed 01:18:24 ok... it's a change, but it didn't seem earth-shattering to me 01:18:35 mhm 01:18:38 plus, we got Doctor Hix. 01:18:46 coppro, he showed up in an earlier book 01:18:49 Making Money iirc? 01:19:00 yeah, but he wasn't nearly as important 01:19:10 "Your unappreciated comments are appreciated." 01:19:19 true 01:20:10 and it's not like the DoPMC is new... I think it was referenced at least as far back as... uh... whichever one they had to talk to the dead guy in 01:20:26 * coppro tries to remember what book that was 01:21:51 Guards! Guards!, maybe? 01:22:19 coppro, huh? Which dead guy? 01:22:28 AnMaster: an old wizard 01:22:33 who's kept in a bottle, IIRC 01:22:38 coppro, wasn't that making money? 01:22:39 again 01:22:57 about golems 01:23:02 ah, possibly 01:23:13 I don't think so though, because I'd probably remember it better if it was a recent one 01:23:44 hmm... according to the wiki, it was only Making Money. Huh. 01:35:45 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:27 yeah 01:43:10 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:08:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 03:27:29 AnMaster: "fizzien" would be the Finnish genetive case; the same as English "fizzie's" would be. 03:28:08 heh 03:28:38 fizzien toisiaan villisti 03:29:20 oklopol, what does that mean? 03:29:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:29:34 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:29:36 fizzing each other like crazy 03:29:54 I see 03:43:10 Okay, so it could also be some other cases; like the active instructive second infinitive of a verb ("by means of" / "while in the act of" -- like fi:juosta = to run, fi:liikkua = to move, fi:"liikkua juosten" => "to move by running"), instead of the genetive case of a noun. That was just what I judged most likely. 03:45:22 -!- rodgort` has quit (Client Quit). 03:45:32 Or just the accusative of the noun "fizzie"; "I bought a fizzie" => "ostin fizzien". 03:45:32 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:48:21 I probably should disconnect that thing, it'll drop when I get off the wlan soon anyway. 03:50:51 heh 03:52:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 03:52:05 At least I doubt it would seamlessly transition from my private wlan to 3G, given that the IP changes and all. 03:54:34 -!- fizzien900 has quit ("off you go"). 04:38:13 Heh, the guy next to me in the train has a N900 too. :p 04:38:30 s/next/opposite/ 04:40:32 Oh, should get off the train too and not just play with the toy. -> 04:49:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 05:12:37 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 06:01:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:06:57 -!- olsner has joined. 06:30:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:33:56 -!- Fuco has joined. 06:43:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:44:06 -!- OxE6 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:50:19 AnMaster: iwc 06:55:46 oerjan, hi there. I was away. Thus I didn't notice you join 06:56:07 oerjan, remind me which theme it was? 06:56:14 espionage 06:56:17 ah right 07:10:08 hrrm this issue makes no sense 07:10:27 this sense makes no issue 07:10:30 either gcc is mishanding volatile or I'm doing something incorrect. 07:10:35 * AnMaster suspects the latter 07:51:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:59 -!- Fuco has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:17:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:21:44 -!- Fuco has joined. 08:21:44 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:21:45 -!- `Fuco`` has joined. 08:22:25 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 08:23:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:29:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 08:30:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:30:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:30:14 -!- rodgort has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:30:14 -!- augur has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:30:14 -!- fungot has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:31:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 08:33:10 -!- rodgort has joined. 08:33:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:36:16 -!- Fuco has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:36:25 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:45:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:45:31 -!- augur has joined. 08:45:31 -!- fungot has joined. 08:56:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 09:11:31 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 09:12:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:12:29 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo. 09:16:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:22:54 -!- asiekierka has joined. 09:22:55 hi 09:31:25 AnMaster: Not that this is so interesting, but I put some pictures taken with the new phone into http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/ -- it's not too shabby, but the full-size images show pretty clearly that it is definitely not a real camera. 09:32:53 (The automatic image-sharing/upload tools are nice, though. Except that I forgot to change the default, and therefore it ripped out the GPS location exif tags from those images. Oh well.) 09:33:11 * uorygl reads about Finnish. 09:33:28 Good ol' suomi. 09:34:04 Oh, it's a Uralic language. 09:37:51 * uorygl reads about Dutch instead. 09:38:51 Is this what they call a diss? 09:39:41 I couldn't tell you. 09:40:18 -!- jpc has joined. 09:40:23 So long as you're reading about germanic languages, just read about English. 09:42:22 fizzie, that gallery is quite broken 09:42:33 the images on the main page are stretched 09:42:47 at least it seems so 09:43:10 wait, it looks like they are slightly stretched and somewhat cropped 09:48:38 AnMaster: Try reloading. 09:48:53 AnMaster: It seems to get confused generating the rescaled images sometimes. They looked just fine when I browsed through it. 09:51:57 fizzie, definitely cropped now 09:52:04 to fit in a square 09:52:08 Show a screenshot? 09:52:12 Yes, well, that they are. 09:52:21 That's what it's supposed to do. 09:52:33 Well, for the thumbnails, that is. 09:54:00 batch command experienced an execution error 09:54:06 how very helpful of gimp 10:01:04 Incidentally, we visited the cafe on that there island, and it was about closing time, and there was beginning some sort of private event; when going out, I sneaked a peek through the door, and someone had set up a projector, and on the first slide of the PowerPoint (or some-such) presentation the title was "42" and the subtitle was "The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything". 10:01:17 Made me very curious as to what sort of an event it was. 10:01:41 where? 10:01:44 There was also present a Finnish sort-of celebrity you probably don't know. 10:02:14 Uunisaari, the place those photos I linked to (about 20 comments ago) were taken. 10:12:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:32 -!- coppro has joined. 10:22:49 Gregor: but I already know a lot about English. 10:24:18 :P 10:25:02 Declension: -s. Conjugation: -s -ing -ed. 10:25:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:27:52 uorygl, learn Swedish maybe? 10:28:34 How 'bout Yola. 10:28:55 I think I considered Swedish once. 10:29:00 uorygl, and? 10:29:23 Then he concluded that he's not a pirate yargh. 10:29:24 :P 10:30:16 Well, I haven't attempted to learn it. 10:30:30 Gregor, I don't get the joek 10:30:32 joke* 10:30:39 but maybe that is because I'm Swedish. 10:30:43 It has a lot of y-like vowels. 10:30:57 uorygl, is that y like in English y? 10:31:05 if so: "huh?" 10:31:31 And by y, I mean [y], like in the Swedish word "syl". 10:31:54 uorygl, What other vowels would be similar in your opinion? 10:32:58 [ø], like "nöt", and [ʏ], like "syll". 10:33:07 err ö and y are very different 10:33:15 syll and syl yes 10:33:18 they are similar 10:33:23 but ö is very very very different 10:33:51 uorygl, completely different sound for ö and y 10:34:34 How different would you say the sounds in the English words "dress" and "lot" are? 10:34:42 Completely different? 10:35:07 ...hmm, I wonder if I'm just asking this as an excuse to feel elite. 10:35:21 uorygl, very different at least. They are certainly closer than the vowels in "dress" and "say" though 10:35:43 * uorygl nods. 10:35:55 It would help, of course, if I actually heard Swedish spoken. 10:36:03 uorygl, don't have a microphone 10:36:12 well, I have one, but it isn't working 10:36:26 Perhaps I shouldn't worry about the pronunciation for now, since I don't plan on actually speaking it any time soon. 10:36:28 uorygl, there are Swedish news broadcasts from the public service radio on their website 10:36:29 sr.se 10:37:04 uorygl, the difference between "anden" and "anden" is much funnier though 10:37:05 ... wtfbbq 10:37:26 uorygl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#Stress_and_pitch 10:37:33 'Say' shares a vowel with 'dress', although it is then proceeded by a different one. 10:37:44 Gregor, what? 10:38:02 Gregor: not in broad transcriptions. 10:38:11 The long 'a' sound is a short 'e' (eh) followed by a long 'e' (ee) 10:38:12 Gregor, that's one STRANGE dialect 10:38:25 /eɪ/ versus /ɛ/. 10:38:26 Gregor, I'm assuming RP here 10:38:39 I'm assuming Gerneal American :P 10:38:44 For the reason that I speak it :P 10:38:49 Gregor, which I have no clue how to speak 10:38:49 uorygl: Yes, I'd say that /dɹɛs/ and /lɒt/ are about as different as one-syllable words can be :-P 10:39:26 I'd say "dress" and "boot" are more different 10:39:32 Deewiant: are you sure it's not /lat/? 10:39:35 I can't really tell. 10:39:49 coppro, how are you measuring the difference 10:39:57 arbitrarily 10:39:59 Anyway, the vowels that are farthest apart on the vowel chart are /i/ and /ɒ/ 10:40:04 phonetic hamming distance 10:40:05 sounds fun 10:40:25 uorygl: Yes, I'd say /lat/ is very different. 10:40:28 Roughly the vowels in "Eeyore". 10:40:49 mmm... EEOR 10:40:50 uorygl: Hell, "hot" is even an example on Wikipedia's ɒ page ;-) 10:40:51 uorygl, what the hell does "Eeyore" mean? And how is it pronounced? 10:40:57 Yeah, my accent doesn't distinguish between /a/ and /ɒ/. 10:41:09 AnMaster: Maybe you know of I-or 10:41:11 AnMaster: Eeyore is the name of a character in the Winnie the Pooh franchise. 10:41:21 Deewiant, yeah right 10:41:30 and EEOR is a mountain 10:41:31 uorygl, is that the English spelling? 10:41:35 Yes, it is. 10:41:38 or part of one, to be exact 10:41:42 Deewiant, actually it is "Ior" in Swedish iirc 10:41:44 AnMaster: yeah. 10:41:45 not "I-or" 10:42:02 It's pronounced /iːɔr/ or something. 10:42:06 AnMaster: Wikipedia sez I-or 10:42:13 (That's where I got it from) 10:42:23 Deewiant, strange 10:42:45 * AnMaster tries to locate the book and gives up 10:42:51 too lazy 10:45:03 * uorygl plays measures 26 through 29 of Opus 11. 10:45:33 uorygl, opus 11 by Gregor? 10:45:50 Gregor, didn't you make extra-www? 10:45:51 Hm, is uorygl actually Warrigal? 10:45:54 AnMaster: Yeah 10:46:05 Gregor, why is codu not redirecting to www.www.codu.org? 10:46:16 * [uorygl] (n=warrie@lunch.normish.org): Tanner Swett 10:46:21 seems not unlikely? 10:46:27 would explain some stuff 10:46:33 Just because I made www.www.extra-www.org doesn't mean I think it's a good idea :P 10:47:05 Gregor, most things gets funnier by taking it seriously 10:47:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Connection timed out). 10:47:11 this is definitely such a case 10:47:33 Yeah, Gregor's. 10:47:49 Checking www.www.codu.org ... does not redirect 10:47:49 Warning: socket_read() [function.socket-read]: unable to read from socket [104]: Connection reset by peer in /var/www/extra-www/validator.php on line 83 10:47:49 Checking www.codu.org ... redirects to /WfXZN/ 10:47:58 Gregor, I think it is broken 10:47:59 AnMaster: what stuff would it explain? 10:48:11 uorygl, you? 10:48:19 Whoops ... 10:48:23 I guess I'll have to check that some time. 10:48:43 Gregor, to vague. Try again for the time spec 10:48:44 ;P 10:49:45 Neat, no-www.org mentions extra-www.org. 10:50:04 uorygl, old 10:51:04 I just love that yes-www.org is gone but extra-www.org is still alive :P 10:53:34 Gregor, indeed 10:53:37 also old 10:54:12 * AnMaster wrote a simple two ball pong 10:54:46 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:54:48 why? becuase why not overdo any assignment you get at university (this was supposed to be introduction to graphical programming) 10:55:14 oh and they are antialiased, use double buffering, and alpha channel to make the balls show up easily even when on top of each other 10:56:04 alas, I couldn't get page flipping to work :/ 11:01:15 -!- coppro has joined. 11:04:45 I wanted to overdo my university assignments, but I ended up not doing them at all. 11:05:10 Thus, quoth my professor: "You could be getting an A in this class, and I don't know whether you're getting a C or a D." 11:05:48 uorygl, ouch 11:05:54 how stupid 11:06:29 What's stupid--me, my behavior, the professor, what the professor said, the professor's not knowing, or the system? 11:06:52 uorygl, your behaviour if you were capable of better 11:08:00 * AnMaster watches the nice effects of drawing something very fast moving (balls speeding up too much between static paddles) 11:08:39 I should add a cap 11:12:08 You should produce motion blur using a low-pass filter. 11:12:45 Make sure it's a theoretically perfect one. 11:14:12 uorygl, well the speeds I was hitting was making the LCD show several balls at once 11:14:25 uorygl, also just get a crappy enough lcd and you will get something similar 11:14:41 my laptop certainly shows something similar 11:14:43 Right, that's why you use motion blur instead. 11:14:58 uorygl, oh and I'm using allegro. That is what the assignment was about 11:15:08 I suspect it will be highly non-trivial in that 11:15:29 Ah. You'll need to extend Allegro to support motion blur. :-P 11:15:38 very funny 11:15:51 uorygl, ever coded with allegro? It is so portable it still supports DOS. 11:16:05 and various weird colour formats 11:16:32 Wow. 11:16:48 uorygl, in fact it's docs suggests "truecolor pixel formats" is something non-standard 11:16:53 oh and yes it is actively developed 11:17:08 beats me why 11:17:13 still it is rather easy to use 11:17:27 comparing with, say, opengl 11:17:30 which is a pain 11:17:36 even for 2D drawing 11:18:17 uorygl, in fact allegro doesn't even support antialias in the current stable version. The development version which uses opengl as a backend does however. 11:18:55 uorygl, So for antialiased balls in pong, I'm using a sprite created in gimp and saved as tga 11:19:01 with alpha channel 11:19:06 no it doesn't support loading png 11:21:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:30:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:32:20 Does anyone know a service that will run authoritative nameservers for a domain for cheap/free? 11:34:22 coppro: Google has one. 11:34:37 they do? 11:34:44 link? 11:35:02 Maybe not the authoritative part... I dunno.. hang on, like to come! 11:35:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:35:21 I need a service that will run authoritative servers 11:35:29 not just random dns 11:35:35 http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/ 11:35:52 http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/faq.html#hosting 11:36:16 Oh. Sorry. 11:44:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:45:48 I use editdns.net 11:50:22 There's freedns.afraid.org 11:51:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:57:44 coppro, run bind on your own server 11:57:56 AnMaster: I need a server with 100% uptime 11:57:58 also many places you buy domains from provide dns server for you 11:58:04 or as close to it as possible 11:58:06 not this domain 11:58:10 coppro, forget freedns.afraid.org then 11:58:16 I had uptime issues with them before 11:58:45 it's one of the requirements for registering the domain; you have to make sure that there are two nameservers that remain up 11:59:20 try another registrar that provides dns servers 11:59:37 .ro only has one registrar 11:59:49 coppro, why on earth .ro? 11:59:52 copp.ro 12:00:01 XD 12:00:10 the registration policy is wonderful. One-time fee. 12:00:16 coppro, whoa 12:00:27 * AnMaster is now known as AnMastor 12:00:34 err 12:00:36 * AnMaster is now known as AnMastro 12:00:37 AnMastro? 12:00:42 yeah 12:00:47 AnMaestro 12:00:58 Deewiant, the thought *did* cross my mind 12:01:04 but I wasn't sure what language that was 12:01:23 .al only allows registering .com.al, etc. :( 12:01:38 * AnMaster wonders what country (if any) .er is 12:01:51 Asztal, you could change your nick to Aszcomal? 12:01:56 AnMaster: Eritrea 12:02:06 nah, I won't go for that 12:02:22 Deewiant, and .nt? 12:02:27 Doesn't exist 12:02:30 meh 12:02:40 they do reserve the right to start charging an annual fee though 12:02:44 .ro is romania or something? 12:02:50 Yep 12:02:50 yeah 12:04:28 btw, once the assignment is sent in and such I will probably put that pong game up somewhere. I guess I could offer a binary for 64-bit linux now if anyone is interested. 12:06:01 | . 12:06:33 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:06:52 -!- augur has joined. 12:07:20 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:08:37 This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly. 12:09:55 I think everydns.net does free primary too. 12:10:12 -!- coppro has joined. 12:10:38 coppro, fizzie had the solution to your DNS issue above 12:10:49 This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly. 12:10:49 I think everydns.net does free primary too. 12:10:50 | . <-- what was that about 12:11:11 pong 12:11:13 http://omploader.org/vMno3Zg/pong.tar.gz if anyone cares. Needs liballegro.so.4.2 12:11:20 compiled on ubuntu jaunty 12:11:22 * coppro is confused by what fizzie said 12:11:59 oh and it seems I included the xcf for those tga. Not that that matters. 12:12:36 just 16 K instead of uh .... 16 K ‽‽‽ 12:13:23 Well, what it boils down to, assuming you don't want to run a DNS server at all, is that everydns.net is one provider that does completely free "full" DNS. (I have no idea how freely their DNS zone editor allows you to do things, though.) 12:13:26 oh forgot -b to du 12:14:34 ok 12:16:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:16:51 And at least based on the nic.ro site, it looks as if one can only register .ro domains in the .co.ro, .ne.ro and .or.ro "top-level" subdomains, but what-the-ever. 12:17:33 Maybe they're just confusing, given how many plain .ro domains there seem to be. 12:17:36 (if anyone tries that pong, please do mention it) 12:19:16 Yes, I guess rotld.ro is the new page and that's just some old relic. Funny, usually "nic.tld" tends to give at least something sensible. 12:19:43 (Though now that I look, seems that a completely arbitrary Finnish ISP has gone and registered nic.fi, so...) 12:21:15 .fi has a similar "you must have at least two nameservers online or you might lose the domain" condition, with automatical sanity checks, but they do give you lots of time to correct any problems. (And you have to live in Finland too, unlike .ro.) 12:32:37 btw it seems like ompload urls are hashes, I uploaded the same file twice by mistake and got the same url back 12:36:29 okay new url. And I would actually be interested in what people think about playability of http://omploader.org/vMno3cg/pong.tar.gz since it has two balls in play 12:36:38 meant for two physical players at the computer btw 12:38:03 oh and it is quite fun for a single player too, trying to keep both balls in the air at once 12:38:20 * AnMaster looks at Deewiant 12:38:24 you use 64-bit linux iirc 12:38:28 Hit me with a Windows binary. 12:38:41 Deewiant, give me a C99 compiler for windows that works 12:38:46 No. 12:38:57 Deewiant, well I thought you were on linux 12:39:00 seems I misremembered 12:39:23 Your memory can't tell you what OS I'm in on a certain date at a certain time 12:39:25 fizzie, what about you? 64-bit linux or not? 12:39:41 64-bit linux, but I don't run untrusted binaries. :p 12:39:42 Deewiant, ah that is what you think. hehehe 12:39:56 I don't feel like rebooting into Linux now so you'd need to hand me a Windows binary. 12:40:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:40:12 Deewiant, I don't have any windows compiling environment set up 12:40:24 Your problem, not mine. :-P 12:40:27 so by the time I had that in vitualbox you would already be on linux 12:40:30 Also there is only one of me, and I can't play pong against myself. 12:40:42 fizzie, oh I found it fun to try to keep both balls in air at once 12:40:42 You have two hands don't you? 12:40:51 Deewiant: Yes, but I'd lose! 12:41:04 also the keys are up/down and w/s 12:41:12 esc to exit 12:41:23 as it says in the readme in the updated version 12:41:24 fizzie: Only if you can defeat yourself 12:41:44 fizzie, single player variant: try to keep both scores as low as possible 12:41:45 AnMaster: Inconvenient on non-qwerty. 12:42:09 Deewiant, well okay I guess I could do up/down and left/right 12:42:30 Deewiant, or I could make it configurable by command line parameter 12:42:32 What I guess you could do is make it configurable 12:43:00 Deewiant, need to convert it to scan code for allegro however 12:44:14 fizzie, as for untrusted binary. hm. you could disassemble it and check that it doesn't call syscall directly and then see with nm -D what library functions it calls 12:44:23 assuming it doesn't self modify that is 12:44:30 which you can see by it not calling mprotect 12:44:36 or mmap 12:44:39 or anything like that 12:44:45 I don't have liballeg.so.4.2 anyway. 12:44:46 dobelx64 doesn't call mprotect, but self-modifies :-P 12:44:52 fizzie, I could upload that 12:45:10 Deewiant, yes but you could look with readelf to see what it requests initially 12:45:20 Nah, still not interested. And I'm sure the liballeg.so.4.2 disassembly would be too long to read. 12:45:27 fizzie, XD 12:45:36 fizzie, anyway you install allegro 12:45:40 it should include it 12:45:50 I no install allegro. 12:45:55 "Kunde inte byta till graifkäget"; at least I ran it through strings. 12:46:01 s/ä/lä/ 12:46:06 s/if/fi/ 12:46:26 fizzie oops forgot to translate that. it is error message from failing to set up window 12:46:30 at 800x600 12:46:36 and yes windowed mode 12:46:40 * AnMaster corrects that message 12:46:50 See, I'm the useful. 12:46:56 indeed 12:47:49 fizzie, anyway you could just check my allegro library had same checksum as the ubuntu jaunty package one 12:48:10 of course you just audited every line of disassembly ;P 12:48:16 on your whole linux system 12:48:25 But does fizzie trust the Ubuntu packages? :-P 12:48:41 I only trust Deewiant. (You have to trust *someone*.) 12:48:44 anyone know a good Marble Drop-like game that I can play on Linux (e.g. Flash or native or something) 12:48:55 fizzie: Last I checked you didn't trust me enough to run CCBI 12:49:09 okay then fizzie *is* paranoid 12:49:28 fizzie, also there is throwaway account and chroot 12:49:30 useful things 12:49:38 I don't trust chroot. :p 12:49:51 fizzie, what about virtualbox then 12:49:51 fizzie: How do you use IRC? Browse the web? 12:50:14 Deewiant: I trust my browser but I don't trust my kernel. That is a bit silly. 12:50:25 Deewiant, btw. how long do you think downloading visual studio from msdnaa would take. Give or take a few years? 12:50:36 fizzie: Yep. 12:50:38 fizzie, what browser? 12:50:45 AnMaster: Can't wine cross-compile using mingw? 12:51:04 Deewiant, I have no idea. And I never got mingw working even under windows so... 12:51:14 well not for more than basic hello world 12:51:36 Mingw is just fine for Windows binary-making; I used it to build Windows binaries of our group project-work for the OpenGL course. 12:51:54 clang should also be able to cross-compile with Winelib 12:51:54 Or "3d graphics programming course with a OpenGL focus", to be more exact. 12:51:56 Apparently you don't even need wine 12:52:00 hm 12:52:05 Trust pola-run. 12:52:07 It's awesomesauce. 12:52:17 you'd probably need Wine for any windows lib stuff 12:52:28 is there a ready-made package for ubuntu for this? 12:52:32 Only if you need to run it 12:52:34 * AnMaster has gotten lazy 12:52:37 Debian has it under the name "mingw32". 12:52:41 AnMaster: Some link suggests that there is so for debian, at least 12:52:43 Don't know about Ubuntu. 12:53:00 "Freedom through obsolescence. Those who still really need to can now build windows executables from the comfort of Debian." (To quote the package description.) 12:53:04 there is 12:53:26 hehe 12:53:39 fizzie, you used it+ 12:53:42 s/+/?/ 12:53:43 Yes. 12:53:52 fizzie, how is it used? 12:54:10 fizzie, just overriding CC? 12:54:14 At least here it uses the "i586-mingw32msvc-" prefix. 12:54:25 fizzie, what about windows dll stuff 12:54:35 Both mingw and msvc? What sense does that make? 12:54:39 So "i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o blah.exe blah.c" for the minimal case. 12:54:45 Deewiant: It means the msvc runtime libs. 12:54:54 Ah. 12:55:09 fizzie, how do you link to a .dll there 12:55:14 don't you need some .lib 12:55:19 and header files for it and such 12:55:53 AnMaster: I don't remember how that works, sorry. The necessary bits for OpenGL were built-in, I think. 12:56:00 hm 12:56:23 If allegro distributes a ready-built .lib as they most likely do, you can probably just link to that 12:57:00 Deewiant: There might've been some conversion tool involved. At least the mingw32-runtime package libs have a .a extension. 12:57:13 Ah right, of course mingw libs are .a 12:57:22 AnMaster confused me with his .libness 12:57:34 ah 12:57:35 But anyway, it's quite likely that allegro distributes a mingw .a 12:57:40 hm 12:57:55 Although it's admittedly more likely that they distribute only a .lib 12:58:11 Oh yes, there is the tool. 12:58:18 # DMC - 12:58:18 zip, 12:58:18 7z, 12:58:18 exe 12:58:18 12:58:19 # 12:58:22 err 12:58:23 fail 12:58:31 that looked like one line originallyt 12:58:34 yay for /flushq 12:58:36 :( no one answered my Marble Drop question 12:58:38 or it would have been worse 12:59:12 everything from dos, mingw to msvc 6 and msvc 9 12:59:18 dos and* 12:59:29 I think you can use i586-mingw32msvc-dlltool to generate what you need for linking against a DLL, but not sure. 13:01:03 (Maybe. The main use case is to create DLLs.) 13:01:40 fizzie, there is an a 13:01:42 .a* 13:01:50 Well, that's useful, then. 13:02:29 * AnMaster is testing with wine atm 13:02:32 If they offer a mingw download then they will give everything you need. 13:02:38 X Error of failed request: GLXBadDrawable 13:02:45 and I wasn't even using opengl 13:05:20 Deewiant, try http://omploader.org/vMno4MA/pong-win32.tar.gz 13:05:30 Deewiant, doesn't work under wine giving opengl error 13:05:38 I have no idea if it will work under real windows 13:07:12 Deewiant, well did it work? 13:07:40 since you are on windows you clearly can't be scared of binaries 13:08:06 I can, however, be AFK on occasion 13:08:16 Deewiant, oh sorry 13:08:37 Seems to work 13:09:10 Even uses my keyboard's s key instead of my keyboard layout's. 13:09:26 Deewiant, oh nice 13:09:38 Deewiant, and the game itself? Works well? 13:09:48 it is always hard for the creator to tlel 13:09:50 tell* 13:10:02 after all I know exactly what it is supposed to do and exactly what I thought of testing 13:10:40 Deewiant, does the circles show up as opaque or do they clearly have an alpha channel? 13:11:07 (can be seen when they cross each other easily) 13:11:08 What's "clear" :-P 13:11:13 Ah 13:11:31 Yeah, they can 13:11:42 right 13:11:54 Deewiant, and how is the actual game play 13:11:57 idea: add pause 13:12:09 Alt-tab is pause :-P 13:12:16 Deewiant, it doesn't afaik? 13:12:17 or does it? 13:12:24 if so I'm very surprised 13:12:31 because background doesn't pause it here 13:12:40 May be an allegro quirk on windows. 13:12:43 Deewiant: Hey, since you're at it, do you want to test the Windows binaries of my game too?! It's just some two-three years late w.r.t. the returning of the project, but I'm sure it'd still be very useful to test. In some sort of hypothetical sense. 13:13:10 Says Mr. I Don't Trust Foreign Binaries :-P 13:13:33 fizzie, very funny 13:13:53 Deewiant, oh there seems to be a set_display_switch_mode I could call 13:14:25 AnMaster: One minor flaw: the circle needs to touch the edge, not fly off it, to score a point 13:15:00 Deewiant, how do you mean? That the circle should be allowed to pass a bit outside before it scores a point? 13:15:12 I think it should be fully outside 13:15:39 Deewiant, hm is that the original pong behaviour? I haven't been able to find pong in ubuntu repos nor in portage 13:16:09 well, ubuntu had a 3D pong thing 13:16:13 thingy* 13:16:23 The original pong does the common trick of simply moving the paddles a bit inside the map instead of putting them at the very edge 13:17:00 Deewiant, I do move them inside, by 5 pixels 13:17:02 maybe too little 13:17:13 also they are 10 px wide 13:17:19 Yeah, I meant by at least the width of a circle :-) 13:17:20 Deewiant: Don't worry, I can't find the windows binary at all. 13:17:22 so that is actually 15 pixels inside that it is checking 13:17:40 In the original arcade pong it's more like 5 times the size of the ball 13:17:48 Deewiant, hm okay 13:18:03 See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I 13:18:05 Deewiant, maybe half the size of it and allow it to pass half the way out 13:18:10 There seems to be a Makefile.win, though. I think it even includes an icon in the .exe. 13:18:37 Deewiant, anyway hitting any place after half of it makes no sense (would only push it out further) 13:18:52 so allowing it to pass exactly half of the paddle sounds like a good idea 13:19:16 True, it has no gameplay value beyond that point 13:19:34 * AnMaster is downloading the video Deewiant linked to 13:19:52 I just think it's prettier if it goes all the way instead of suddenly disappearing 13:20:14 And I guess there might be some multiplayer amusement involved in having somebody hit the ball further in 13:21:08 Deewiant, that would require me to rewrite my very simple ball bouncing code 13:21:19 which just checks where on the line that is the start of the paddle we hit 13:21:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:21:47 you could get some strange effects as of now if you allowed hitting after half had passed 13:22:31 Just flip the sign of the x-velocity if it's past the paddle? 13:22:35 -!- coppro has joined. 13:23:44 Deewiant, that is very inellegantly played, why don't they just move to where the ball is 13:23:53 what game? 13:23:59 coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I 13:24:14 That's a funny error. 13:24:16 i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o ui.o ui.c -c -std=c99 -Wall -Werror -O2 -I. 13:24:16 cc1: warnings being treated as errors 13:24:16 ui.c:254: warning: C99 inline functions are not supported; using GNU89 13:24:26 fizzie, you had it too? 13:24:33 also yeah I got loads of it 13:25:59 -!- immibis has joined. 13:26:10 meh it does allow some strange pushing 13:26:50 Deewiant, well I predicted placing them further in would break stuff. It did but not the way I expected 13:28:48 Deewiant: If you actually *do* want to try out another Windows binary (are you bored or something?), http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.zip 13:29:09 fizzie, what is that game? 13:29:24 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikan_t%C3%A4hti 13:29:31 Well, a clone of it. 13:29:52 fizzie, oh? screeshot? 13:30:01 I had some somewhere. 13:32:00 Hmm, this game is more complicated than the version I remember :-P 13:32:10 AnMaster: Eh, well, here's a very fast screenshot, but it's not really showing up its best side: http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.png 13:32:25 It has a better side? 13:32:46 Deewiant: Maybe not. Though the gemstones you find aren't too shabby, I seem to remember. 13:33:03 Deewiant: You can also rotate and zoom with the cursor keys, that might not be immediately obvious. 13:33:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:33:20 Yeah, I was just about to ask if I can get a more zoomed-out view somehow :-) 13:33:28 Deewiant: And there's a very realistic day/night cycle. 13:34:34 I don't suppose I can change the camera pitch in any way? 13:34:55 I don't think so, no. But you can drag around the map with the left mouse button. 13:35:03 It'll snap back to the fixed position when you let go. :p 13:35:13 Right mouse button, actually 13:35:18 Right, right. 13:36:35 Deewiant, well fixed those issues 13:36:52 Deewiant: Oh, and you can add a command line flag "-q 1" to get a lot nicer heightmap. :p 13:36:54 fizzie: I forget the mechanics: what can player A do if B has the star? 13:37:13 Deewiant: You can try to find a horseshoe and take that to one of the starting points before B gets the star there. 13:37:15 fizzie: Oo, awesome. :-) 13:37:37 Deewiant: In the sometimes-used house rules, you can also attack the other player, but that's highly nonstandard. 13:37:39 Why isn't the nicer heightmap on by default 13:37:47 s/$/?/ 13:38:02 Deewiant: It wasn't fast enough on the school SGI O2 workstations this was demoed on. :p 13:38:07 :-D 13:39:01 heh 13:39:10 I had totally forgotten that -q flag, I just found it from the project report now. 13:39:23 fizzie, source link (or 64-bit linux binary) 13:39:31 The default is "-q 4" which uses every fourth point from the heightmap. 13:39:38 Good luck playing it with all the text being in Finnish 13:39:54 Deewiant, meh good point 13:39:57 so forget it 13:40:17 Deewiant, didn't they use gettext()? 13:40:19 :/ 13:40:19 Although there isn't that much text 13:40:24 Heh, right. There's not *that* much text, though; I can give you a translation. 13:40:28 It's not localized, no. 13:40:28 err gettext _() 13:40:29 I meant 13:40:45 translation would be nice yeah 13:40:45 Just using gettext wouldn't help much without, you know, the localizations. 13:40:54 fizzie, well yes 13:41:43 http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.tar.gz might be a 64-bit linux binary; it needs that "data" subdir and it needs to be accessible so that fopen("data/foo") works. There was a bit of a deadline problem to do anything nice. 13:42:12 (Also libglut.so.3.) 13:42:35 On the positive side, you can edit the .obj files in the data subdir to provide all new models. 13:45:19 Deewiant, updated pong btw to fix those issues: http://omploader.org/vMno4OQ/pong-win32.tar.gz 13:45:24 The heightmap is bona fide real data, by the way. (The ground colors are not.) 13:47:25 "(Cannot contact the database server: Can't connect to MySQL server on '10.0.6.32' (4) (10.0.6.32))" I don't think I've gotten that from Wikipedia earlier. 13:51:36 -!- ais523_unidentif has joined. 13:52:36 ais523_unidentif, hi there 13:52:51 hi 13:52:58 this is not my computer 13:52:59 fizzie, so what about translations + linux binary or source? 13:53:02 ais523_unidentif, ah 13:53:05 it's a Windows computer that's probably full of malware 13:53:11 ais523_unidentif, something wrong with your computer? 13:53:20 yes 13:53:23 ais523_unidentif, oh what? 13:53:26 not so wrong I can't use it 13:53:30 but I left it at home 13:53:36 basically, it's pretty much falling apart 13:53:37 ais523_unidentif, you have one at work iirc? 13:53:41 ais523_unidentif, so get a new one 13:53:42 the screen is coming out from its frame, etc 13:53:46 I'm going to 13:53:48 just haven't yet 13:53:49 great 13:53:59 ais523_unidentif, what about the centos box at work? 13:54:06 it's now a win7 box 13:54:16 AnMaster: I already linked to a Linux binary. Let me see about translations. 13:54:23 ais523_unidentif, I thought it dual-booted? 13:54:24 the centos box had too many hardware issues 13:54:29 both dual-boot in theory 13:54:35 but the win partition didn't work on the first 13:54:40 and the linux partition doesn't work on the second 13:54:42 heh 14:05:29 AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/translate.txt has probably most of the strings in the game translated. 14:06:44 which game? 14:07:23 ais523_unidentif: Long story, are you sure you don't want to just check today's clog? 14:07:43 I'll check it later; not particularly easy for me to do so now 14:07:43 ais523_unidentif: We've been having Deewiant work as a test monkey for windows binaries. 14:07:51 but I may be going home soon anyway 14:07:56 so there might not be time for a long story as it is 14:08:38 To summarize: it's a OpenGL version of a Finnish board game I (partially) did for the 3d graphics programming course a couple of years back. 14:08:45 (In 2005, apparently.) 14:09:44 fizzie, I think I found a bug 14:09:54 fizzie, someone can get stuck at the Canary islands 14:10:08 assuming 0 coins there 14:10:15 AnMaster: That is a well-known bug. 14:10:17 shouldn't you be allowed to move two spaces 14:10:28 AnMaster: That's just the heretical new rules. 14:10:35 AnMaster: We don't roll that way. 14:10:46 Do you even lose the game for that player if he gets stuck? :-) 14:10:53 NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidiactl (Permission denied). 14:10:53 freeglut (./afrikka): Unable to create direct context rendering for window 'Afrikan t�hti' 14:10:53 This may hurt performance. 14:10:57 * AnMaster wonders why 14:11:00 it is fast anyway 14:11:03 even with -g 1 14:11:07 -q 1 14:11:11 err 14:11:29 Deewiant, yeah I meant that 14:11:32 Deewiant: I'm not sure. There's a "the game is now unwinnable" message in the sources. 14:11:55 That happens if the star is there, so at least you check for that much 14:12:12 -!- Wh1teWolf has joined. 14:12:53 -!- ais523_unidentif has quit ("Page closed"). 14:16:17 Deewiant: I can't really understand my logic here any more. I think I only toggle the unwinnable flag if the star has been found, a "thief" coin is uncovered, none of the remaining players have a star/horseshoe, and there are no horseshoes left in the map. 14:16:35 Deewiant: So I think I don't check for the Canary Islands special cases. 14:16:41 D'oh. 14:16:56 Wait, you keep track of horseshoes that have been found before the star? 14:17:07 No. 14:17:07 Or no, that was in no way implied by what you said. 14:18:18 The rules were written based on the physical copy of the game I have here, and that's from some time in the 1980s, and doesn't contain the special rule anyway. 14:18:19 Gregor, where is egobot? 14:18:46 In practice we don't even the skip the turns for the player who's stuck on the island; we simply ridicule him/her every time it's his/her turn. 14:18:47 The original rules certainly don't account for the special case :-) 14:19:05 fizzie: But can that player do anything? 14:19:19 -!- Wh1teWolf has left (?). 14:19:34 If on the larger island, yes, you can walk from one end to another repeatedly. On the smaller island, not much. 14:20:30 AnMaster: Looks like an upgrade broke it. 14:20:33 *fixfixfix* 14:20:38 Deewiant: The game is at least clever enough to handle that case: if you have no options you can do, it always adds an "end turn" option to the sidebar. 14:20:49 Gregor, good I need bf_txtgen NAO! 14:20:53 ;P 14:21:06 You can run the same bit of Java locally, you know. 14:21:10 -!- EgoBot has joined. 14:21:18 fizzie, "meh" 14:21:27 fizzie: Isn't egobot written in C? 14:21:37 !bf_txtgen !dlrow olleH 14:21:44 ...? 14:21:45 110 ++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.++++++++.++++++.---.++++++++.<-.>--------.---..-------.>++.>. [600] 14:21:54 !bf_txtgen Hej världen! 14:21:57 186 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. [453] 14:22:31 !bf_txtgen Hepskukkuu maailmainen! 14:22:34 182 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.+++.<-----.>++.<..>..>++++.<--------.<<----..>--.>-.+.<<.>.>+.<----.>.>+.-----------------------. [471] 14:22:35 oklopol: xD 14:22:42 Deewiant, what does that mean? 14:22:45 hello world? 14:22:49 Hello world. 14:22:51 yes, literal translation 14:22:52 ah 14:22:59 immibis: I am under the impression that bf_txtgen is the same thing as that textgen.java from somewhere. Being written in C doesn't mean you couldn't run other processes. 14:23:04 oklopol, oh "literal" as in "funnily broken"? 14:23:26 yes, something like that 14:23:35 ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. 14:23:36 Hej världen!. 14:23:40 wait what 14:23:46 fixxie: you're right, from looking at the source: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.java 14:23:47 why the extra dot there fizzie ^ 14:23:52 AnMaster: It's the newline. 14:24:01 ah 14:24:07 ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+. 14:24:07 Hej världen! 14:25:07 X on voittaja! 14:25:07 A winner is X! 14:25:14 fizzie, is that really correct translation? 14:25:24 Yep 14:25:33 Deewiant, is it literal one? 14:25:37 it a* 14:25:37 Yep 14:25:52 Deewiant, so it should have been "X won" basically 14:25:53 mhm 14:25:54 "X is a winner!" would possibly be more literal. 14:25:59 right 14:26:02 But "A winner is X" is the meme. 14:26:08 Well yeah 14:26:10 Voittaja on X! 14:26:16 But that's more "The winner is X" 14:26:18 * AnMaster wonders if you could insert the strings in the binary 14:26:51 Some of them are in multiple pieces. 14:27:01 You could get close, I guess. 14:27:28 fizzie, problem is length 14:27:45 Space-padding where needed, abbreviating the English also. 14:28:10 fizzie, wouldn't \0 padding work? 14:28:23 fizzie, or do you depend on fixed length? 14:28:38 I guess in most cases it would work right. 14:28:45 │ ...... db "Out of memory when allocating mesh vertex array (%s).\0" │ 14:28:54 you do have English strings there 14:29:02 All the error messages are in English, yes. 14:29:30 There are some "Impossible: X" ones too. 14:30:29 The terrain.map file in the data directory should be human-readable text too, if you want to customize it. 14:30:59 (Some of the node numbers do have special rules attached, though.) 14:32:39 heh 14:33:03 (14, 15 and 31.) 14:33:26 You didn't feel like distinguishing them? :-P 14:33:49 Deewiant: The .map file format parsing and such were done in a relatively early stage of the project. 14:33:58 Deewiant: The "game logic" part was done with the deadline looming. 14:34:04 heh 14:34:31 I'd show you the commit frequency from a "svn log", but "svn: Could not open the requested SVN filesystem" 14:34:35 The repository must've moved. 14:35:21 This is why you should always use a DVCS locally when using a school's CCVS system :-) 14:35:44 Actually I used a local CCVS system, it's just that the C has moved. :p 14:35:57 Bah :-P 14:37:29 I've switched to a more DVCS-oriented way nowadays, but that was back then. 14:38:35 fizzie, what is C there 14:38:41 oh 14:38:43 central 14:38:43 Isn't it centralized? 14:38:58 Probably more like "center" in the "has moved" part. 14:40:36 I found quite a pile of SVN repositories, but none of them seem to contain that particular project. 14:41:39 Hey, there it probably is. 14:44:36 There actually aren't so many separate commits that it'd look impressive; but you can deduce something from the fact that the last commit was made at 2006-04-06 05:43:19, and that is indeed in the local time zone. As I remember it, we had the "return the project and demonstrate it to the course assistant" session booked for 2006-04-06 morning. 14:50:00 * SimonRC goes 14:50:35 * uorygl ponders. 14:50:50 Yay, .al is Albania. 14:52:14 uorygl, what about .gl? 14:52:27 Greenland 14:52:34 I was quasi-seriously considering "zzie.fi", actually. 14:52:46 fizzie, why not .ie? 14:53:16 AnMaster: Ireland, like probably a majority of the ccTLDs, only sells domains if you live or have an office or have at least something to do with the country in question. 14:53:30 I don't want .gl. 14:53:39 At least officially. Don't know what the actual practice is, but that's the regulation. 14:54:07 Maybe I'll have to ask my Albanian friend to register it for me. 14:57:29 The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CcTLD list claims to have a * for all that allow foreign registration, though that's probably not kept religiously up-to-date. 14:59:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:00:31 fizzie, untranslated string: "kierroksella uudelleen"? 15:01:03 "again on [a/the] round" 15:01:45 Yes. It's the second half of "Yritä seuraavalla". 15:01:59 "Yritä seuraavalla kierroksella uudelleen" => "Try again on the next round" or some-such. 15:07:23 fizzie, you meant you didn't get things done well before the deadline? 15:07:25 how strange 15:07:34 I always make sure to be done at least a week before 15:07:56 (assuming I as notified before a week in advance) 15:09:08 I am bad with deadlines and scheduling things. 15:14:07 -!- MizardX- has joined. 15:22:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:25:10 -!- FireyFly has joined. 15:25:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:25:28 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 15:30:30 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out). 15:30:36 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 15:34:00 Erm, usually those flash-based "navigate our shop with this panorama picture" things do proper perspective correction, but this one somehow looks rather freaky, especially if you navigate around it: http://www.korkeavuorenkatu.fi/fin/panorama/faberart.htm 15:36:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"). 15:36:43 I guess it's just that it needs to be zoomed in so that the "natural" field-of-view of the picture matches at least a bit the field-of-view caused by the monitor. 15:47:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:53:00 who is this hubert anyway 15:53:59 Hubert Farnsworth? 15:54:18 oerjan, iwc 15:54:40 oerjan, wait, haven't we done that already today? 15:54:42 AnMaster: didn't we already men 15:54:53 oerjan, "already men"? 15:55:03 *interrupted* 15:55:07 ah 15:55:22 oerjan, you need to mark it by ... or something 15:55:34 *never* 15:55:40 oerjan, why npot 15:55:41 not* 15:55:49 confusing you is the meaning of the universe, after all 15:56:50 oerjan, no 15:56:53 oerjan, the reverse 15:57:05 oerjan, only not, sideways 15:57:59 the universe likes shooting fish in barrels, clearly 15:58:26 oerjan, no I wouldn't say so 15:58:37 oerjan, more like finishing barrels in shootguns 15:58:52 * oerjan thinks he broke AnMaster 15:59:06 oerjan, wrong. Only dried frog 15:59:15 oh well 16:00:50 oerjan, not at all 16:00:58 * oerjan notes that all but one google hit for "but tell me hubert" is for this channel 16:01:15 what is this hubert about? 16:01:22 -!- AnMaster has set topic: hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:01:40 and the final one is harry potter fanfic :D 16:01:48 oerjan, XD 16:02:08 with sex in it, if the introductory warning is to be believed 16:02:20 -_- 16:02:32 "The first in an irregular series of stories." 16:02:48 are we looking at shakespeare's work here? 16:02:50 * AnMaster goes back listening to Swedish jazz 16:03:05 some compilation of Swedish jazz 16:03:07 quite nice 16:03:10 well done, you've successfully described all internet fiction (fan fic or otherwise) 16:03:27 coppro: um how so? 16:03:39 coppro, wrong 16:03:40 "an irregular series of stories" 16:03:49 coppro, oh? 16:03:49 that's a quote from the page, actually 16:03:55 I know 16:04:10 coppro, how comes you know that? 16:04:14 you wrote it? HAH 16:04:19 discovered 16:04:21 generalization! 16:04:29 all logic is based on generalization 16:04:29 coppro, how so? 16:04:31 well-known fact 16:04:58 all internet fiction I've seen can be described as an irregular series of stories -> all internet fiction can be described as an irregular series of stories 16:05:17 coppro, that implication is not true. 16:05:24 lies 16:05:31 all logic works like that, because some logic works like that 16:05:37 coppro, well known example: All swans I have seen are white 16:05:42 thus all swans are white 16:05:44 right 16:05:51 except there are black swans in Australia 16:05:53 (note: I know this is not true. It's fun to be stupid, though) 16:06:01 coppro, yes 16:06:15 coppro, ehird hasn't realised this yet 16:06:26 :/ 16:06:49 coppro: so you are not aware of the distinction between deduction and induction? 16:06:56 oerjan: I am 16:07:12 It's just that it's entertaining to pretend not to 16:07:28 (the distinction, of course, is that induction isn't logic) 16:08:15 um what? afaik induction proofs work over countable sets? 16:08:18 unless I misremember 16:08:47 oerjan, right? 16:09:12 mathematical induction is deductive reasoning 16:09:25 coppro, "fun to be stupid"... 16:09:35 While regular induction is just "it has worked so far, so it must always be the case" 16:09:38 ok, I missed the sarcasm 16:09:52 coppro, that's because it wasn't there ;P 16:10:05 ugh... I broke clang 16:10:10 coppro, how? 16:10:23 by being really stupid 16:10:30 coppro, how? 16:10:46 by making a change to the lexer that I apparently did wrong 16:10:54 Alarums. Enter Iohn and Hubert. 16:10:54 Iohn. How goes the day with vs? oh tell me Hubert 16:10:54 -- MR. William SHAKESPEARES Comedies, Histories & Tragedies, Published according to the True Original Copies London Printed by Ifaac Iaggard, and Ed, Bount. 1623 16:10:58 coppro, are you working on clang? 16:11:01 That's where Hubert got to our topic. 16:11:13 yes 16:11:26 fizzie, uhu 16:12:15 Wait, there's no comma there. 16:13:02 AnMaster: what coppro and AnMaster said. also there is _transfinite_ induction which doesn't require countability 16:13:16 oerjan, how does that work? 16:13:16 erkh 16:13:23 oerjan, what? 16:13:27 s/AnMaster/Slereah/ 16:13:36 In fact it is more likely from this actual, later copy of the King John play: 16:13:37 [Alarums. Enter KING JOHN and HUBERT.] 16:13:37 KING JOHN. How goes the day with us? O, tell me, Hubert. 16:14:13 fizzie, there was no "but" there: but tell me, hubert 16:14:17 iircv 16:14:19 iirc* 16:14:21 AnMaster: well ordered (or even well founded) set instead of just naturals. 16:14:30 fizzie, anyway why did shakespear like hubert so much 16:14:33 AnMaster: Yes, well, fungot does mix that stuff up. 16:14:33 fizzie: ah oh you're breaking up really really bad it was based on a true life story or something yeah 16:14:39 you can use it to prove things about all ordinals, say 16:14:40 oerjan, like the reals? 16:14:46 err 16:14:52 no, reals are totally ordered, not well ordered 16:14:57 by the usual ordering 16:15:04 oerjan, hm? 16:15:23 well ordering means every non-empty set has a smallest element 16:15:32 oerjan, well the rationals are countable. you can map them to the integer by using the diagonal 16:15:53 AnMaster: um this is irrelevent to what i said 16:15:56 *vant 16:17:05 oerjan, then you lost me 16:17:52 oh 16:17:52 oerjan, so example of uncountable but well ordered set 16:17:52 oerjan: Irreverent to what you said. 16:18:32 the axiom of choice allows you to give a well ordering for any set, no matter how big. Zermelo's proof. However it needs to have no connection to any usual ordering. 16:19:02 aleph-1, being the first uncountable ordinal, is the smallest example 16:19:29 as a von Neumann ordinal it is the set of all countable ordinals 16:19:53 i still can't decide if I believe the axiom of choice is true or not, and if it has consequences for physical reality either way 16:19:56 um wait 16:20:38 that's cardinal. but that presentation gives a well ordering of it. 16:22:28 it's name as an ordinal is omega-1 16:23:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number explains everything i said about this so far, i think 16:24:35 I think I need to sleep a bit before understanding this 16:24:37 *yawn* 16:24:48 night → 16:33:16 The axiom of choice definitely has no consequences for physical reality. 16:33:18 * coppro is now befuddled 16:33:57 ZFC contains models of ZF-C and vice versa, doesn't it? 16:34:30 well not strictly a model 16:34:32 how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath? 16:34:50 but an embedding of sorts? 16:35:00 What's a non-strict model and what's non-strict about it? 16:35:21 if you had a model in the technical sense you would have a proof of its consistence, violating godel incompleteness 16:36:09 Oh, right. 16:36:22 So assuming that ZF is consistent, are there models? 16:36:38 so it's more like: given a model of one, you can construct a model of the other 16:37:31 godel's completeness theorem says essentially that, yes, iirc 16:37:52 of course this requires working inside ZF to start with... 16:39:35 but i'm not an expert on this 16:40:53 Yeah, I guess the completeness theorem does pretty much say that. 16:45:25 i _think_ cohen's forcing used for one direction of the proof requires working with ZF as the metatheory, but i haven't exactly read the proof. 16:45:48 because forcing requires some rather heavy set theory stuff 17:06:04 * coppro fixed it 17:07:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:07:34 -!- quantumEd has joined. 17:08:32 forccing?? bloody hell 17:09:07 "consequences for physical reality." ? because reality is finite or what 17:09:08 ? 17:09:29 by reality I guess you mean sockdrawers 17:28:00 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:31:10 -!- coppro has joined. 17:55:05 -!- calamari_ has joined. 18:13:48 Well, assuming I'm remembering this stuff correctly, doesn't the Banach-Tarski paradox depend on the axiom of choice being true? Obviously nobody is actually going to be able to attempt that kind of disassembly/reassembly physically, but I think that shows AOC isnt devoid of applicability to physical theory 18:14:21 mycroftiv, it's a conseqence of axiom of choice 18:14:34 it doesn't matter whether choice is true or not (whatever that means) 18:16:30 I just meant 'true' as a sloppy way of expressing whether or not that axiom is included in a formal system 18:16:58 oh sorry 18:25:07 -!- jpc has quit ("goshdarnit."). 18:25:17 -!- jpc has joined. 18:27:07 ok, here's a link that seems to make the case that modern physics already presumes the axiom of choice to be true: 18:27:15 http://books.google.com/books?id=4paH9zuYzmgC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=axiom+of+choice+and+physics&source=bl&ots=72CmYhfqCB&sig=C-97pzDcvE5Cok64aKMxvsmLUao&hl=en&ei=b04kS-2IA9TDlAeU9YH2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=axiom%20of%20choice%20and%20physics&f=false 18:28:19 -!- jpc has quit (Client Quit). 18:28:25 -!- jpc has joined. 18:30:23 I don't really understand that stuff :/ 18:30:36 I think that I don't know physics well enough to get it, maybe 18:34:36 well, the details arent that important, the outline of the argument is that von neumann's analysis of quantum superposition made use of math that depends on axiom of choice - as to whether that really supports the somewhat strong conclusion he draws, i dunno 18:34:43 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 18:35:25 im not actually arguing for/against AOC having any physical relevance, but I think its an interesting question that cant just be dismissed, if you take the relationship between reality/physics/math seriously 18:44:33 -!- jpc has quit ("goshdarnit."). 18:44:42 -!- jpc has joined. 18:50:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 18:50:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:50:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 18:58:26 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:58:33 -!- jpc has joined. 19:01:52 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:02:24 -!- coppro has joined. 19:19:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:21:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:34:02 -!- quantumEd has quit ("* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *"). 19:37:25 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:37:58 -!- immibis has joined. 20:52:50 -!- `Fuco`` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:16:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("Leaving"). 21:22:48 -!- augur has joined. 21:29:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:29:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:48:42 mycroftiv: on the contrary, the Banach-Tarski paradox has no application to physics, either. 21:51:13 uorygl: I agree with that, but after trying to research the question a bit I would say that it seems pretty clear the mathematics of modern physics makes use of proofs dependent on axiom of choice in some places 21:51:35 so it seems from my attempting to understand the issues (subsequent to earlier semirandom musings) that there really is a pretty direct connection 21:52:32 -!- augur_ has joined. 21:52:58 Well, I'm quite skeptical. 21:53:32 I mean, the axiom of choice doesn't even talk about real things. It talks about things known as "ZFC sets". 21:53:40 mathematical analysis gets prettier when you use the axiom of choice 21:54:20 I'm pretty sure it can be stated as simply placing a restriction on what things are ZFC sets and what things aren't. 21:55:10 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:57:54 Well, the ontological question of whether or not the mathematical rules we use to describe reality are actually embedded within reality in some way, or are directly synonymous with it, or are only related via the mechanism of essentially subjective mentation is still pretty vexatious 21:58:23 `define vexatious 21:58:42 * annoying: causing irritation or annoyance; "tapping an annoying rhythm on his glass with his fork"; "aircraft noise is particularly bothersome ... \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary. ... 21:59:48 `define mentation 21:59:50 * thinking: the process of using your mind to consider something carefully; "thinking always made him frown"; "she paused for thought" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Mental activity. The process of thinking 22:00:30 You're asking whether the definition of a man-made concept is embedded in reality in some way. 22:01:01 Does which color means "go" have any bearing on physics? No, definitely not. 22:01:22 its not that simple, the external universe is the cause of all our thoughts, and we are not in any way separate from the universe 22:01:52 if materialism is basically correct, which I think it is, human ideas are simply another observable objective physical phenomenon in the universe, caused via its action and bearing the imprint of its structure 22:02:20 so the idea that human thought structure is in some way independent of reality is actually profoundly antiscientific, in my opinion 22:02:38 Yes, but "bearing the imprint" doesn't mean that fundamental truths will embed themselves in the definitions that we choose in order to simplify things. 22:02:44 I completely agree. 22:02:59 The axiom of choice is part of a definition that we choose in order to simplify things. 22:03:12 To me it's an open question of how exactly our mathematical physics relates to reality - to what extent it is 'really out there'/ 22:03:34 when i have two oranges in one hand and two oranges in another hand and then i put them on the table and count 4 oranges, it seems pretty objective 22:03:51 but reading cosmology and the like, it can be harder to have that same feeling 22:04:55 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:05:23 But I guess if I believe the facts of arithmetic, and its axioms, can be 'out there' in the universe, then the axiom of choice could be implicate in the structure of how things work as well 22:05:51 That's because "two" and "four" have definitions that are strongly linked with physics; we can observe things whose behavior corresponds to the behavior of the integers. 22:06:10 I guess the example of riemannian geometry being created back when everyone thought space was flat and Newtonian is an example I could cite 22:06:36 I suppose that if we observed things that behaved like ZF sets, it would make sense to talk about whether the axiom of choice is true for the universe or not. 22:07:27 Hmm, I think that's a neat analogy. Given that the universe's geometry is not Euclidean, would you say that Euclid's fifth postulate is not true in this universe? 22:08:19 Yeah, I think I would 22:08:59 If the large scale structure of space time is curved, then you can either have multiple or zero parallels relative to a given line from a given point 22:09:19 What if we discovered some other area of physics that *does* follow the laws of Euclidean geometry? 22:09:44 well thats the problem, quantum theory basically does, and thats why we cant fit it with GR, right? 22:10:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:11:09 we dont know how to mathematically reformulate QFT in gravitationally curved spacetime in a consistent way 22:11:29 Well, obviously, neither QM nor GR is a complete theory of stuff. As far as this part of geometry goes, GR seems to describe it better. 22:11:32 i'm not sure it's the non-euclideanness as much as the fact the geometry is changing with time... 22:12:49 uorygl: yeah, when it comes to drawing parallel lines to infinity, that is definitely on the scale of the cosmological ;) 22:19:18 You still haven't really answered my question, though. 22:19:30 which question? 22:20:30 physics and euclidean geometry? 22:23:52 What if we . . . of Euclidean geometry? 22:24:45 Well, I guess I have the belief that there is an actual set of true physical laws that are consisent across the observable universe and are expressible in mathematical form, and they will be all in agreement 22:25:24 * uorygl nods. 22:25:34 So I would think that having spacetime be treated as Euclidean when modeling one process and non-Euclidean in another model would be a sign that one or another model was incomplete 22:26:43 it's leprechauns all the way down 22:27:16 lol 22:41:04 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:42:11 -!- augur has joined. 22:43:01 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:46:52 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:49:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:49:38 -!- augur has joined. 22:57:03 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:02:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:10:07 Wait, hang on a moment. 23:10:27 I would agree with you if I were talking about something like QM and GR. 23:11:08 But suppose that we actually do manage to find a complete set of laws for the universe. 23:12:24 s/do/did/ 23:12:35 And one part of these laws (e.g. its description of spacetime) consisted of a non-Euclidean geometry, and another (e.g. its description of some spooky thing we haven't discovered yet) consisted of Euclidean geometry. 23:22:34 yeah lovecraft had it backwards 23:25:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:58:45 -!- augur has joined.