< 1259539229 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overall though i think how rio handles the shell is certainly far more rational than the TTY emulation behavior we are used to in *nix
< 1259539427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TTY emulation is by no means considered rational. It's just a historical artifact.
< 1259539436 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, which is why plan9 ditches it
< 1259539440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods
< 1259539514 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: btw if you are interested in persistence, i have done some simple things towards the goal of better plan9 persistence, in particular a 9p fs that can be used for 'screen' like purposes and a version of rio modified to use it
< 1259541342 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259541630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1259541651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tty emulation is the most retarded thing ever
< 1259541661 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup
< 1259541662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i saw that on 9gridchan i think
< 1259541670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: do not call it screen
< 1259541679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screen is for running multiple terminals in one
< 1259541681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and split screen
< 1259541684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :detaching is a side feature
< 1259541687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was confused when reading it
< 1259541697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say screen's detach feature or http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
< 1259541699 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does multiple terminals in one fs also
< 1259541704 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not 'terminals'
< 1259541726 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its shells, its actually buffering/multiplexing file descriptors is all really
< 1259541765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplexing is not something that belongs inside
< 1259541769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is something that belongs outside
< 1259541775 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside vs outside what?
< 1259541817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jtomaschke.blogspot.com/2009/02/plan9-ac97-driver-bug.html see in my os the process would just crash! :P
< 1259541822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: the detacher
< 1259541836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't detaching just >f <f anyway
< 1259541871 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a matter of fact the detaching *IS* done from outside, because the structure is that the hubfs backend is just a file descriptor multiplexor, it doesnt even know what a shell is
< 1259541889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh
< 1259541891 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the hubshell client program is what understands how to make hubs as files and connect them to a shell and attach/detach
< 1259541893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said multiplexing
< 1259541894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not detaching
< 1259541926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferno is an rtos isn't it
< 1259541936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multihatching
< 1259541939 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what hubfs itself does is just provide a capacity to make named pipes that can have multiple readers/writers and random access
< 1259542070 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes
< 1259542089 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferno? real time? i dont think so
< 1259542095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought it was
< 1259542103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: how do you feel about stupid programs and traditional shells working badly with non-lowercase-without-spaces filenames? i think it's made naming more awkward for some things
< 1259542136 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure filesystem name limitations (apart from certain sanity conventions) are always annoying
< 1259542137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i think my preferred rc scrolling behaviour would be that it'd up to the program, but i understand that's not feasible
< 1259542151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. ls/lc if the directory is big would stop scrolling, man always would
< 1259542154 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually it is - the program can write to its own window to set that i believe
< 1259542160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how mail sets the terminal into hold
< 1259542230 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it 'the shell' not the terminal to get into the plan9 naming scheme
< 1259542246 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the 'no tty' is pretty fundamental
< 1259542587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah
< 1259542594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: rio is the terminal running the shell
< 1259542598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rc, the shell, can't do that
< 1259542603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rio has a window with rc in it
< 1259542604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no tty is nutty
< 1259542606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore i deem it the terminal
< 1259542624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could call it "window", but i'm being explicit that it's not like a window running acme, it's pure text
< 1259542627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there
< 1259542783 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, obviously everyone can define their "term"s how they choose
< 1259542811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me a better, more appropriate name for a rio text window and I'll use it
< 1259542821 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rc window, shell window, rio window ?
< 1259542831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving"
< 1259542841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rio windows can run graphical programs like sam and acme, and behave differently in that case
< 1259542849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have to be rc, it can be any program
< 1259542852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto for shell window
< 1259542863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they're quite verbose.
< 1259542901 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said you can define stuff how you want, the conventional plan9 usage is different, but im not one to argue such things, it doesnt bother me
< 1259542924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but i want to use a more plan9 term if i can
< 1259543016 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in the exact context you used, since you were talking about running the mail program, 'rio window' or even just 'rio' would probably replace terminal in standard plan9-talk
< 1259543137 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the plan9 standard lexicon maps 'terminal' strongly onto 'the physical machine with the display and keyboard/mouse devices'
< 1259543138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realised that 90% of the difficulty of Snake is the horrible mobile buttons, not the actual difficulty of the game
< 1259543139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am humbled
< 1259543161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9% is really stupid slipups caused by not thinking for a second
< 1259543165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1% is actual hard situatinos
< 1259543167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*situations
< 1259543202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so is a separate fileserver/cpuserver worthwhile nowadays?
< 1259543214 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the modular set up yes
< 1259543223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1259543248 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several reasons - it facilitates abstraction away from the hardware is the most basic I guess
< 1259543256 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes some admin tasks much easier
< 1259543274 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enhances reliability if you have a well designed system
< 1259543275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it facilitate that? what admin tasks and how?
< 1259543290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see plan 9 crashing much :P
< 1259543324 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have good luck with uptime on physical hardware also, my qemu VMs are not really 'enterprise grade' in terms of uptime *cough*
< 1259543344 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats qemu fault not plan9, but still something ive had to grapple with in design
< 1259543370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me like file servers made sense when hardware was slow
< 1259543376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the file server would be doing a lot of work, etc
< 1259543382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the 90s
< 1259543384 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i will give you the most direct example - the gridtoolsplus linux toolkit that i host, which has a full modular setup set up as a venti-based clown car
< 1259543392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with the much beefier, affordable hardware today, combining the file and cpu servers seems rational
< 1259543400 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start the venti, and all the clowns (plan 9 vms) pop out of the car, and then ride around on the car
< 1259543407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: this metaphor is
< 1259543408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strained
< 1259543439 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it distributes the functions between the linux host running venti in p9p, a qemu VM running fossil, a qemu VM running as cpu server, and a drawterm terminal in the host os - and you can then distribute those however you want
< 1259543455 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to run venti on one machine, fossil on another, cpu on another, term on another, the same pieces work transparently across the network
< 1259543474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i like how you spontaneously dropped the metaphor
< 1259543507 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont want a clown based extended metaphor of plan9 grids
< 1259543530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why clowns, exactly? just curious
< 1259543559 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the clown car thing - the gridtools are distributed as venti data and minimal p9p venti binaries and scripts to start venti, then extract the VM images, which boot and then use the venti as backing store
< 1259543572 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea of packing objects as small as possible is relevant
< 1259543579 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that works because of the way venti does deduplication
< 1259543589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how confusing you are.
< 1259543610 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can fit a lot of clowns (vm images) inside a snapshot of venti data
< 1259543617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop it it hurts :|
< 1259543629 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were teh one who complained when the metaphor stopped before
< 1259543652 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ok serious answer
< 1259543654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't complain
< 1259543671 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :separating file and cpu server means that you can boot multiple cpu servers from the same file server
< 1259543678 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this does a huge amount of your clustering work 'for you'
< 1259543705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9 system = {file server, cpu server+, terminal+}
< 1259543705 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because each independent cpu is going to see the same static file data namespace from the fossil (prior to whatever local customizations on that cpu bootup you make etc etc)
< 1259543706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct?
< 1259543725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add cpu servers for MOAR SPEED, more terminals for uh... more people... i guess
< 1259543726 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add venti server for archival
< 1259543735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's included in file server by my hand-waving powers.
< 1259543737 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can run fossil without venti so that set you gave is a possible  subset
< 1259543753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9 system = {file server, venti server?, cpu server+, terminal+}
< 1259543766 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use multiple file and venti servers also
< 1259543771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add a venti server for archival, add cpu servers for more power, add terminals for, well, lots of things
< 1259543773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: >_<
< 1259543782 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not needed, but its all modular
< 1259543800 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can freely bind whatever resources wherever so any number of each component can be used 'sanely' pretty much
< 1259543821 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its true that you generally think you have one huge venti, maybe a couple file servers, then a bunch of cpus, and terms for each user
< 1259543824 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259543845 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like using multiple ventis personally, thats actually part of what gives me ultra reliability
< 1259543882 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, multiple ventis
< 1259543882 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can boot the same fossil from multiple ventis if you have replicated the data blocks, which will be auto deduped so its basically penalty free
< 1259543885 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a lot of caffeine!!!!!
< 1259543893 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have the sh*ts a lot!!!!
< 1259543914 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1259543914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing is the weirdest person in here
< 1259543918 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought I was in #defocus
< 1259543920 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my apologies
< 1259543931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he has bipolar
< 1259544138 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should make a pun on bipolar bears
< 1259544166 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Bipolar_bear
< 1259544237 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick
< 1259544248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite
< 1259544295 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That disorder sucks, but not as bad as having paranoid schgrizzlyphrenia
< 1259544306 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259544520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: g r o a n
< 1259544612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it interesting how you can cat directories
< 1259544622 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish the format for dir files was plaintext
< 1259544640 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really cat of a dir should be about the same output as ls of a dir just not as nicely formatted
< 1259544678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls of a dir isn't nicely formatted
< 1259544681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a list of names :P
< 1259544688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is that the actual directory structure?
< 1259544692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in
< 1259544697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just a file along with the dir structure
< 1259544703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it actually the directory itself
< 1259544736 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix and plan9 have always used files to represent the directory structure, its not 'the directory itself' as you mean it
< 1259544758 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see k & r c book for a nice simple traditional look at it
< 1259544782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm trying to say is
< 1259544783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readdir and shit
< 1259544785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they look at that
< 1259544790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something else
< 1259544854 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dirstat fills a dir structure with information from the directory file
< 1259544893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could a simple yes/no be given
< 1259544927 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, not when im not sure i fully understand the question, i generally try to give a solid related fact
< 1259544946 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some things, like ls, stat every file in a directory
< 1259545021 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dirread is like ls in that regard
< 1259545034 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it goes one at a time according to the manpage
< 1259545064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i know that
< 1259545065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is
< 1259545080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: some background — the actual directory itself is a list of files. yes?
< 1259545083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what a directory is
< 1259545089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, if you have a directory, this must be stored somewhere
< 1259545100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you cat a directory, is that where this is actually stored, or is it just generated from it?
< 1259545102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e.
< 1259545107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the functions that look at directories
< 1259545110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they get it from the directory file
< 1259545111 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the actual file that stores the information
< 1259545114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some metadata in the filesystem?
< 1259545125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: ok. then my objection to making it more plaintext is that it'd be more inefficient to parse
< 1259545138 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, its obviously done the way it is for efficiency and space and optimization
< 1259545195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i mean, as much as i talk about doing everything as a 9p server
< 1259545198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm really worried it'll be dog slow
< 1259545249 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for what kind of tasks?
< 1259545279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything
< 1259545324 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i was assuming this kind of design wouldnt be suitable for something like 3d gaming/multimedia focused use
< 1259545345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :passing a struct pointer to a function and the like will always be faster than going through indirection to find the relevant server for that filename, composing a message, sending it, waiting for the server to compose a response, receiving it and parsing it.
< 1259545353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: well duh
< 1259545421 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, using 9p on top of plan 9 (and then obviously especially via a network0 means you have a lot of layering
< 1259545434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well just a local network
< 1259545436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in sockets
< 1259545446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing to a file's the same, pretty much
< 1259545451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or reading
< 1259545453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean
< 1259545455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thaht's the process i gave
< 1259545457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that's
< 1259545498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading from a 9p file: find the relevant server, compose a message, IPC it, wait for the 9p server, IPC back the response, parse it
< 1259545506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs
< 1259545507 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9p synthetic fses on lan are pretty fast tho really
< 1259545516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following a function pointer to the device's relevant function, like getchar
< 1259545519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling it
< 1259545529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it's obvious which will be faster by far
< 1259545541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is (*kb->getchar)())
< 1259545563 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont disagree with that but dont forget that in standard computer usage you wait for the disk drive etc, you dont waint for the function pointers to be referenced
< 1259545571 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/waint/wait/
< 1259545630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssd :P
< 1259545633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree, but
< 1259545636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole cluster stuff
< 1259545642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is mainly useful, I think, for large computations
< 1259545645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than little tasks
< 1259545654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need a cluster for things that don't require mainly computation
< 1259545679 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use it for redundancy and hardware independence, not much heavy duty computation
< 1259545698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever ran into a failure where the cluster saved you
< 1259545702 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several times
< 1259545723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you being stupid or a genuine error
< 1259545759 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, most common scenario is power failure i guess, i only have my servers on uninterruptible power supplies
< 1259545776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would i detect if something is a directory in rc?
< 1259545785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :power failure, how minor
< 1259545787 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a flag to test
< 1259545793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fix for a power failure is turning them back on again
< 1259545798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: ~ you mean?
< 1259545802 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, power failure isnt 'minor' in terms of potential data loss and disruption
< 1259545808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, plan 9 has test, how ununixy :)
< 1259545811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was expecting
< 1259545813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isdir(1)
< 1259545814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1259545854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file $dir also works btw
< 1259545878 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a power failure that brings down a box is functionally equivalent to temporary 'complete destruction' and can also cause undesirable data or filesystem corruption
< 1259545907 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UPS are considered absolutely required for datacenters for a reason
< 1259545927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrugg
< 1259545931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(file / | awk '{exit(!$2=="directory")}')
< 1259545938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ far more elegant than test yo :P
< 1259546018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just bound every directory in / to /
< 1259546019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahaha
< 1259546021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in bind -a)
< 1259546030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, there's .links
< 1259546033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno where it really is of course :P
< 1259546044 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats quite a union
< 1259546057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'd have preferred to bind every directory in the system to /
< 1259546061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, this works
< 1259546070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: wow, there can be multiple files with the same name in a directory with bind
< 1259546074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creepy
< 1259546086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls | wc -l → 933
< 1259546099 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, and the -a vs -b flags to the binds determine which will actually be loooked up
< 1259546126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did:
< 1259546138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(x in `{ls /}) if(test -d $x) bind -a $x /
< 1259546201 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw let me give you a really important tip
< 1259546206 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :window -m is your friend
< 1259546215 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that pops up a new window in the identical namespace
< 1259546232 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you do a bunch of complicated binds you can clone the environment easily
< 1259546237 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259546242 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also of course then starting a sub rio means all the new windows in it will inherit them
< 1259546246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, it's per process
< 1259546250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why everything didn't break.
< 1259546325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone actually used the monospaced fonts to code in plan 9? it seems unnecessary
< 1259546348 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sure some people do, acme default works ok for me though
< 1259546453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the fonts man -P gives again and sighs
< 1259546456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such wasted potential! :P
< 1259546710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I saved a million-ish dollar new business pitch with the arcane knowledge that Apple's old ADB cables (of which I had oodles in my departments' storage closet) actually worked as SVideo cables."
< 1259546710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much worked as as werer...
< 1259546711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*were
< 1259546983 0 :enikdu!n=ethan@99-185-77-211.lightspeed.clmasc.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259547005 0 :enikdu!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1259547299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :short visitor
< 1259547512 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird hes an example i hope you like of network transparency and synthetic filesystems - by importing a namespace across the network my customized rio can open its new windows as remote persistent shells
< 1259547531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.
< 1259547546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That breaks usual rio semantics — New creates a new shell, Delete terminates it.
< 1259547559 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its additional menu options, i didnt change the behavior of New
< 1259547634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lambda.nirv.net/m/screenshots/20080807/montage.png ;; six fucking monitors?!
< 1259547641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: What are the additional options?
< 1259547659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do the persistent windows have, say, a different background to mark that they're only a "view" onto the actual shell?
< 1259547682 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i put it on sources in my unreleased dir - no, i didnt mark them graphically
< 1259547690 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prompt is usually the cue
< 1259547704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's a cue for the machine, not the persistency; they have different semantics to normal rio windows.
< 1259547711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the extra menu items called?
< 1259547718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a cool idea, just with some possible pitfalls.
< 1259547732 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is 'Hub' which connects to whatever is bound to /n/hubfs
< 1259547753 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is a command arg that you can actually set to whatever you want - its acme by default but i usually set mine to run hubshell on a different mounted hubfs
< 1259547777 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt change the windows, just what app is run in them really
< 1259547779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, better than changing the background would be changing the border colour. Is that possible?
< 1259547781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd make it purple.
< 1259547786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Still.
< 1259547800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I Delete a window, I expect it all to be gone, usually.
< 1259547801 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually did add in rio color theming options now that you mention it, but they arent correlated to the additional hubfs persistence stuff
< 1259547805 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the window is gone
< 1259547813 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all the window was doing was connecting to a preexisting process
< 1259547826 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its not any different than any background daemon or what have you
< 1259547849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I still think it'd catch me off guard.
< 1259547863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start an intensive process, give up on it and so Delete it... and yet...
< 1259547864 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting that i got the idea from you pretty much ;)
< 1259547872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, really? xD
< 1259547876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso
< 1259547888 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your general talk of how great persistence was and how it was central to your os design
< 1259547895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so not recent
< 1259547896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coolio
< 1259547904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah persistence is awesome
< 1259547909 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to me the idea of making 'everything' persistent by default is appealing
< 1259547922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i have a challenge for you
< 1259547952 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhoh
< 1259547955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D
< 1259547960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like shoving my ideas onto other people
< 1259547966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who i believe are more knowledgable
< 1259548001 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it better be plan9 or music theory related or i dont fit that category
< 1259548005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9
< 1259548032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a program that takes a pid. it writes what we will call X to stdout or a specified file. Now, let's say we reboot the machine and the process is no longer running. We run the other program and give it X as input. The process tree is recreated and the processes continue from where they left off, with all their allocated and static memory intact.
< 1259548043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BORING BABY WUSS VERSION: Make it work on only single processes without children)
< 1259548050 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah good idea
< 1259548055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :caveat: this is probably quite hard
< 1259548059 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats also equivalent to process migration between systems also
< 1259548062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1259548064 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that comes for free with the other
< 1259548072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: don't bother making it architecture-independent, obviously
< 1259548077 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let me outline my roadmap
< 1259548078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be near-impossible
< 1259548088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I would suggest that the first step is to find a way to get the kernel to stop running a process
< 1259548093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but keep it alive
< 1259548095 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill only be doing anything like that *after* I finish a general plan9 GUI persistence layer than can multiplex and detach rio sessions
< 1259548096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you have a consistent state
< 1259548166 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can already control a process pretty well and save a lot of state with the debugger
< 1259548183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but not to the same degree
< 1259548205 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know
< 1259548210 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a good place to start
< 1259548224 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need to reinvent the wheel on the basics of manipulating process state
< 1259548234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i've thought of one issue
< 1259548250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next time it runs, the memory it uses may be in use
< 1259548254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus all the pointers would have to change
< 1259548262 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just one of a lot of issues
< 1259548265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't tell between a pointer and an integer with the same value, obviously
< 1259548338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the basic steps in the process are: freeze the process, save the machine code, save the instruction pointer (make it relative to the start of the code to fix up later), save the registers, go through each allocated block of memory and save it, magic pointer munging, unfreeze the process
< 1259548341 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually got into a discussion of some similar concepts based around the idea of actually versioning everything, so you could rewind a process, even
< 1259548350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1259548356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dsome extra stubs for reopening files
< 1259548358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*some
< 1259548367 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :version all the memory it touches and and record all its operations
< 1259548377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., take note of all open files/sockets/what have you, and make the unthawer run that before restoring
< 1259548382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cool thing is, if it doesn't destroy the process
< 1259548387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can take snapshots of processes
< 1259548391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed, like you said, rewind to a degree
< 1259548408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you're playing a text adventure game without a save feature
< 1259548417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snapshot it to disk before making a game-changing decision
< 1259548419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lose
< 1259548420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsnapshot it
< 1259548423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, mycroftiv
< 1259548425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could clone processes
< 1259548444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9term% freeze 348 | thaw
< 1259548519 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah actually another project prior to doing kernel level process manipulation is my grid/task system that exists further up the stack
< 1259548527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, cloning processes would be so awesome
< 1259548546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd add a Clone action to rio :)
< 1259548554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, shit
< 1259548563 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its funny you say that, i have my standard 'hacked together equivalent' running right now
< 1259548566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to save the contents of /dev/cons and /dev/draw and even /dev/mouse to do that effectively
< 1259548570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get a real clone
< 1259548571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh :P
< 1259548575 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, im aware
< 1259548576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about just save the entire namespace :D
< 1259548584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all files in it
< 1259548590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: how does your hacked up one work?
< 1259548601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw is there a p9 binary that lets you point-'n-click a window and it prints its pid?
< 1259548607 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh its pretty crude but its amusing, its still in the land of all my rc stuff
< 1259548631 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i have is a hubfs as my persistent shell but its got shells on two different machines that are reading the same input file descriptor
< 1259548649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well of course my clone would make them separate
< 1259548653 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the commands i type in my persistent shell are executed on two cpu server but they have a parallel environment
< 1259548658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like a fork that keeps the past
< 1259548681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On operator precedence: "The proof that it's a bad idea is the fact that you can take any used copy of K&R, drop it on its spine, and it will open to page 53, with the precedence table."
< 1259548726 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, mine opens differently
< 1259548745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't write that
< 1259548747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just thought it was funny
< 1259548781 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id say the 'greatest spine-break hits' are maybe the section on complicated declarations and dirdcl program
< 1259548793 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff on structures/unions/typedef
< 1259548796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, my solution to complicated c declarations
< 1259548799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is to not write them in the first place
< 1259548810 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly
< 1259548901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A STUPID IDEA: Multiple, separate keyboard support!
< 1259548908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One rio window listens to one, another listens to another.
< 1259548911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEAT
< 1259548917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/EA/EE/
< 1259548937 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can already do that
< 1259548947 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just import the '#c' from a different machine
< 1259548953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you read from the two separately in one process?
< 1259548959 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm... MEAT
< 1259548968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, i make a lot of structs pointers unnecessarily just to avoid the hideous s.a syntax
< 1259548973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo->bar vs foo.bar
< 1259548978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is much more C
< 1259548994 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess id run two separate rios for that, not have one rio splitting kbs, i see what you mean
< 1259549008 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however no reason you cant change the local reference within a given window
< 1259549034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how un-clike it is to unify -> and .
< 1259549050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. just make -> be the same as . now, except that a pointer-to-struct is automatically dereferenced if you try and access a member
< 1259549074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: can you have /dev/consa and /dev/consb each from a different machine?
< 1259549078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and access both in one process
< 1259549109 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, sort of, maybe not in exactly the way you want to
< 1259549118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in
< 1259549119 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, they are just files, you can obviously read the files
< 1259549121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1259549124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i  meant
< 1259549126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i meant
< 1259549133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any opinions on that . -> unification?
< 1259549165 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, well the problem is how does anything know if you want the value or the reference?
< 1259549189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realised i've been using ksh for weeks
< 1259549192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1259549197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: explain
< 1259549202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll restate my new semantics
< 1259549205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, pretend -> doesn't exist
< 1259549210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretend there's just . as it is now
< 1259549211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however
< 1259549219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. is renamed to ->
< 1259549220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and
< 1259549234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the left operand of -> is a pointer to a struct, it is automatically dereferenced
< 1259549261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, plan 9 bc is written in yacc
< 1259549302 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of agree, in practice i think you find most stuff ends up being written as -> anyway for fairly obvious reasons
< 1259549322 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense of people choosing to organize their datastructures primarily via pointers
< 1259549431 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, grrr, I was trying to grep through a gzipped file, but I forgot the -c option to gunzip. Then I was wondering why my hard drive was 224MB more full, and the grep had no results :/
< 1259549488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yah, but e.g. if you have a global structure
< 1259549493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bad to have it be a pointer
< 1259549498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do it anyway
< 1259549502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise it's so ugly
< 1259549509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, automatic dereferencing seems un-Clike
< 1259549516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only similar thing is automatic array→pointer conversion
< 1259549529 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know plan9's access shortcut right?
< 1259549533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: gunzip is horrible how it does that
< 1259549535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: what is it?
< 1259549537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1259549541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unnamed structs/unions?
< 1259549551 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1259549551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can use for composition/pseudo-inheritance too?
< 1259549552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, old hat.
< 1259549558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It doesn't seem like *that* big of a deal, though, because anything other than automatic dereferencing would be... Wrong.
< 1259549568 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: compression tools in general that assume that you want "in-place" in/deflation
< 1259549573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you had but one operator)
< 1259549583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, yes, but the question is should you have one operator
< 1259549591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: anything that assumes you want in-place anything
< 1259549626 0 :sunrider!n=kosmic@unaffiliated/spice JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259549626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: does rc have any syntax to tie two programs together? that is, the first program writes to the second and also reads from it
< 1259549632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vice-versa for the other
< 1259549637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it does, you could do
< 1259549654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9term% inplace foo.gz <|> ungzip
< 1259549665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so inplace would read foo.gz and feed it to ungzip
< 1259549674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then read what ungzip outputs, and write it to a temp file
< 1259549679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then move the temp file to foo.gz
< 1259549689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda pointless, but still fun
< 1259549698 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well rc can do nonlinear pipelining but im not sure that particular example is sane
< 1259549708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm :P
< 1259549713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esp because of the .gz you get in result
< 1259549730 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want crazy pipelining use hubfs, thats what i wrote it for
< 1259549742 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it surpasses your wildest i/o fantasies, i guarantee it
< 1259549753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it require a... hub
< 1259549759 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Final Boss of named pipes
< 1259549851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does plan 9 let you allocate memory beyond (ram+swap), and then go on a murderous rampage if you try to use it?
< 1259549853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought not
< 1259549855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lollinux
< 1259549878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* Such a stupid idea from Linux.
< 1259549888 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno how plan9 deals with oom other than apps having error handling and usually quitting when they cant malloc, dunno what the kernel itself does
< 1259549893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it so hard to make malloc just return NULL on OOM?
< 1259549917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: seriously, if you suggest that to them they go on about how it's not the process's fault
< 1259549922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if it'll get offended or something
< 1259549940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... Murder.
< 1259549948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BUT WHAT ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS THAT SHOULDN'T EXIT" — yes, that common real-world situation of requiring shit to still run when you're out of memory.
< 1259549953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happens all the time on critical servers.
< 1259549975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The things that really truly shouldn't exit will have OOM handlers that won't exit.
< 1259549990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If malloc returns NULL, that is.
< 1259549991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens in real life too. People suffer from inconvenient assassinations sometimes
< 1259550016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, seriously, no critical server is running properly on a system that's out of memory
< 1259550019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, with the OOM killer, things that really truly shouldn't exit MIGHT GET KILLED BECAUSE SOME OTHER PROCESS MALLOCED EVERYTHING.
< 1259550023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting it out of its misery will not make the situation any worse
< 1259550029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and might make it easier to recover from
< 1259550030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to, you know
< 1259550032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freeing up memory
< 1259550038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it exits
< 1259550074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I do think overcommitting is logical in one case though
< 1259550075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap
< 1259550075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: And maybe giving a useful error message when that happens.
< 1259550084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's irrelevant how big it is
< 1259550084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, overcommiting with mmap is logical.
< 1259550088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's on disk
< 1259550093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however
< 1259550095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, in fact, half the point of mmap.
< 1259550099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do mmap without a backing file, I'm not sure
< 1259550106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that mandates it'll be in memory
< 1259550113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe returning NULL if there's no backing file is logical
< 1259550120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it's >(ram+swap))
< 1259550154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any program actually depend on the Linux overcommiting behavior?
< 1259550162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for mmap to memory?
< 1259550163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sbcl
< 1259550170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, for malloc.
< 1259550174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it allocates a gigantic (multi-gig) heap with mmap
< 1259550179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not that i know of
< 1259550181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be retarded
< 1259550187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know.
< 1259550205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only need to do larger-than-memory allocations if you know they'll only be actually allocated when used
< 1259550206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. mmap
< 1259550219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods
< 1259550234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't need to use sbcl you can disable overcommitting with one write to /sys
< 1259550249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: is it possible, with rio, to insert some graphical stuff next to some text in a shell window
< 1259550252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but keep it a text wiwndow
< 1259550254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*window
< 1259550255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amusingly, if I ran 32-bit, then >(ram+swap) allocations would be impossible.
< 1259550257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think little sparkline graphs
< 1259550261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not enough address space)
< 1259550265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside mostly textual output
< 1259550284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm seriously considering just not supporting swap in my os
< 1259550300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with my paltry 2.5 GiB of RAM (lol), eh
< 1259550302 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: on a technical level, sure, drawing to the window is very simple and direct
< 1259550309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time a system uses swap its gui goes down the shitter anyway
< 1259550315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: right, but cooperating with scrolling and stuff
< 1259550332 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm not as sure on that
< 1259550339 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would suspect not
< 1259550362 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pretty sure rio handles the rc window scrolling by moving around the view it maintains of a text buffer backscroll
< 1259550400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about in acme?
< 1259550413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would be totally awesome to have intermingling graphics/text like that
< 1259550423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blurring the lines between a textual and graphical program
< 1259550426 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id look at how abaco does it
< 1259550441 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant do it naively but its not impossible to implement
< 1259550469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, i don't really like the "feel" of abaco though
< 1259550490 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has acme style windows and they display bitmap graphics so its very relevant to your question
< 1259550495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1259550511 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fgb describes it as a hack i think
< 1259550559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: here's a really cool thing it could be used for:
< 1259550559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9term% recentcommandswhatididexecute | rank
< 1259550559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls    645     ==========================
< 1259550560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm      100     =========
< 1259550560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1259550568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the lines are actually coloured rectangles
< 1259550595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cool thing is that if you piped it to another program, the graph just wouldn't be there
< 1259550601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, ok, that's what the cat-v paper warned against
< 1259550601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1259550608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these graphical snippets wouldn't be accessible as text anyway
< 1259550611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're barely even "there"
< 1259550614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike ls columnating
< 1259550654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, rank would just count the number of times each word appears in the input, sort by the top, and output the occurrences; then just an if(graphical) { magic inline graphics functions }
< 1259550662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would add a little spice to the command line
< 1259550672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I messed up my monospacing
< 1259550674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please excuse it
< 1259550729 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree graphical objects should be freely deployable
< 1259550766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read a proposal to do that in linux by making a terminal that supported embedding X11 windows
< 1259550772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiny little ones
< 1259550779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inline
< 1259550802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it'd mean you could view images without popping up a new window; that might be a bad usage though
< 1259550808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since piping would make no sense
< 1259550891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: if it weren't for sam and acme i'd be a skeptic of plan 9's graphics model to the max
< 1259550909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to something like acme that only shows rio terminals (so to speak), and having graphics inlined there
< 1259550925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, i have an idea for the scrolling thing
< 1259550945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you press shift+enter to send a command, scrolling is disabled until the next time you press enter
< 1259550958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. enter = normal command, shift+enter = for man and long ls/lc listings and the like
< 1259551006 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know escape for hold mode on off right?
< 1259551016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1259551027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i find that scrolling only ever applies right before running a command with a lot of output
< 1259551028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm
< 1259551029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no-scrolling
< 1259551032 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259551050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl+enter would probably be more plan 9, although keyboard shortcuts beyond ctrl+letter for text editing are un-plan9
< 1259551054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think this would be useful
< 1259551089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: food for thought: how does non-scrolling-inhibits-output interact with graphics? probably inhibits graphic display too
< 1259551196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, i started to have an idea then i realised i was going into ehirdos territory
< 1259551257 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm - popping back to a previous question - looks like the bitmap issue is probably annoying in rc integration because of its use of libframe which seems to be text only in what it provides
< 1259551271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bollocks
< 1259551291 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just based on a very quick scan of the source code and glancing at a manpage though
< 1259551331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea, btw, was that if you started, say, games/catclock, and were on the prompt after (it still running, of course), you could drag the catclock (like dragging an acme drag handle) into a new space
< 1259551358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd detach from the terminal, disappearing and leaving, like, an italic grey "moved to a (link: separate window)"
< 1259551363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clicking it would pointer-warp there
< 1259551365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know
< 1259551366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just musing
< 1259551397 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when i first heard about plan9 i assumed you could do cp /screen/1/window/1 /screen/2/window/2 and it would copy the window to the other screen
< 1259551429 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically im hoping to hack that into place with rio multiplexing and persistence
< 1259551430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain immediately snapped back with the reasons why that doesn't work in plan 9's architecture, then i realised that was irrelevant to the idea that it should work
< 1259551611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with ehirdos is that it's hard to define the boundaries
< 1259551643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i go all visionary, and then i realise "if i'm thinking this far i might as well just give up on ehirdos and wait for the singularity and its mind-control interfaces and near-infinite computing power"
< 1259551644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i backtrack
< 1259551648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i'm all grumble
< 1259551650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is inferior grumble
< 1259551651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat
< 1259551703 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the feeling, which is why I have adopted the approach of small incremental work in Plan 9
< 1259551787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that doing any actual work on ehirdos feels wrong, because this design is meant to be perfect forever and ever
< 1259551792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just sit there designing how i'm going to design it
< 1259551922 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well remember any os at all is gonna be used to execute arbitrary code, so that means perfection is sort of irrelevant
< 1259551938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read that statement and it is meaningless
< 1259551945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as there's no os/program distinction in ehirdos
< 1259551947 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not
< 1259551951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :os is all the base software too
< 1259551962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, i have to create infrastructure
< 1259551971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infrastructure is like 70% of os design
< 1259551986 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because as soon as someone writes tetris for ehirdos, they are playing tetris, and tetris is tetris, and ehirdos isnt very relevant to that experience
< 1259552017 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever perfection/imperfection there is in tetris itself becomes predominant
< 1259552043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't base my os around tetris
< 1259552053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :games are unique in that they don't really interact with other entities
< 1259552129 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just trying to point out that perfection isnt possible to deliver to the user because an OS is open-ended
< 1259552195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing is perfect except a single consciousness filling all existence constantly experiencing absolute bliss for eternity with nothing changing... and in fact that sounds like torture to me, so i can amend that to nothing is perfect.
< 1259552208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to the world of hyperbole, where "perfect forever" doesn't actually mean that
< 1259552275 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well look at networking and network protocols - an os kind of has to deal with them, and they are obviously very far from perfect, so i think you have to focus on thinking pragmatically for some things
< 1259552308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i supposed to say "ah, thanks, of course i'm an idiot and hadn't considered interaction with the outside world at all" now :)
< 1259552353 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was really saying that because of the obvious segue to plan9 /net and stuff like ftpfs
< 1259552395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that the oberon os is basically acme os
< 1259552420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the m.b.s guys were taking stuff from it
< 1259552427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should look into it
< 1259552470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically acme is oberon os in a box
< 1259552471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but w/e
< 1259552474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(causality)
< 1259552490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Oberon OS is available for several other hardware platforms, generally in no cost versions. It is typically extremely compact. Even with an Oberon compiler, assorted utilities including a web browser, TCP/IP networking, and a GUI, the entire package has been able to fit on a single 3.5" floppy disk. The version which runs on bare PC hardware is called Native Oberon.
< 1259552495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh now that's just ridiculously compact
< 1259552497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop showin goff
< 1259552500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*showing off
< 1259552606 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oberon is deceased isnt it?
< 1259552622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the download is still available at  least
< 1259552623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*at least
< 1259552626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/downloads/index
< 1259552629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want the first native oberon one
< 1259552640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Current news on the current Oberon Releases at ETH are to be announced here:
< 1259552641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dr. Felix Friedrich at ETH is currently writing the new Oberon Compiler which will be released in 2008.
< 1259552641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ulla Glavitsch finished the work on the new A2 system garbage collection in July 2008.
< 1259552641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sven Stauber has launched a new Oberon Forum (http://www.ocp.inf.ethz.ch/forum/).
< 1259552642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Information on the Oberon day 2009 will be announced here.
< 1259552646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't sound too dead
< 1259552649 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1259552658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought so too btw
< 1259552889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  NIC: 3Com 3C509 Etherlink III or 3C905B FastEtherLink
< 1259552889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Dialup: Standard modem (not WinModem) with SLIP or PPP internet
< 1259552889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :service provider
< 1259552889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Sound: Soundblaster
< 1259552892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Mouse: PS/2 or serial mouse (3-button recommended)
< 1259552897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Processor: 80386, Pentium or compatible
< 1259552898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Bus: ISA, EISA or PCI
< 1259552898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Memory: 4Mb
< 1259552898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  Disk space: 3Mb
< 1259552899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this shit is oooooold
< 1259552958 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like it
< 1259552987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm booted into oberon
< 1259552990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text is tiny but i'm booted
< 1259553194 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to replenish my caffeine supply, i assume you are going to have an oberon<->losethos<-plan9->tunes protoype wired together in 10 minutes when i get back
< 1259553240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: more likely go to bed
< 1259553247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 4 am, i have to be up at ~9:40
< 1259553291 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, write teh source code in dreams and sleep with a pencil between your toes to write it out via involuntary twitch signalling
< 1259553310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like oberon already
< 1259553318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the installer is just a bunch of text files with executable commands
< 1259553333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like ... html shell scripts
< 1259553441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it won't recognise my disk
< 1259553454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll pick this up tomorrow
< 1259553463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think oberon has just totally changed my view of programming :P
< 1259553467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye
< 1259553475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1259555128 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1259555210 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259555265 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1259555500 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259555660 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyaaaaaaaa~
< 1259555775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes ha neko ni natta, ne...
< 1259555820 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyaa nyaa pikhq nya nyaa nyaaa aru~
< 1259555876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anata no nihongo ha chotto neko rashii...
< 1259555920 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sou daro nyaaa~
< 1259555981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wan! Wan!
< 1259556663 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dortse mon veitchuats?
< 1259556819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wenn ist das Nunstruck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
< 1259556938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHAH
< 1259556941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAAAAHAHAHAHAH
< 1259556942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gack*
< 1259556947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1259556998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i'm following the discussion
< 1259557545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Well, you see... Wenn ist das Nunstruck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beirherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
< 1259557622 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nunstruck" sounds ominous
< 1259557657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should study German, so as to understand the World's Greatest Joke.
< 1259557686 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know some german, that's not german
< 1259557697 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it may be enough german to be a joke
< 1259557709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a more serious note, you should study the works of Python, Monty.
< 1259557748 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*zombie* Yesh.
< 1259558079 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259558081 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259558137 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i interested in everything, couldn't some things just be inherently uninteresting to me
< 1259558281 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fly fishing
< 1259558287 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you find fly fishing interesting
< 1259558387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But being interested in everything is a blessing! >.>
< 1259558414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that means you'll be interested in what I want you to be interested in! >.>
< 1259558485 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259558488 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes pretty much
< 1259558566 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what fly fishing is really
< 1259558582 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda is a proof system. It's inspired by Haskell; therefore, it's awesome. As far as I know, nobody has ever successfully implemented ZFC, or anything similar, in Agda. Get to it.
< 1259558604 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't implement much these days
< 1259558654 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made something I thought was an implementation of ZFC. It turned out to have a flaw that had no obvious fix. So I started implementing NBG, which is like ZFC, instead, and got bored halfway through.
< 1259558799 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah "inspired by Haskell; therefore, it's awesome" this logic I do not follow
< 1259558828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's NBG, less known
< 1259558863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's axiom 1
< 1259558947 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: well, are you familiar with Haskell?
< 1259558951 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1259558960 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are a strange man.
< 1259558996 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)¨
< 1259558999 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:)
< 1259559023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have something right... never mind, you got it.
< 1259559044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :höhö
< 1259560353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realized youtube comments are pretty stupid
< 1259560376 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really
< 1259560380 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are they stupid?
< 1259560451 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maarhoefe (1 month ago) Show Hide +3 Marked as spam Reply fuckin doorknockers wont convert me! the only jehovas i like are the female ones since﻿ i can violate them with my satanic lusts
< 1259560473 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean come on sure it's death metal but why be such a stereotype about it
< 1259560489 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM SATANIST I RAPE AND KILL EVERYTHING THAT BREATHES
< 1259560548 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM A SANTAIST, I SPREAD CHEER AND GOODWILL ONCE A YEAR
< 1259560550 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also exam soon, should probably get to uni and start preparing mentally
< 1259560596 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god this stuff is awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dTrIVIWqFA&feature=related
< 1259560605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM SANTA, I SPREAD FEAR AND ANNIHILATION ONCE A YEAR.
< 1259560637 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a death metal band doesn't get a smile on your face, they're doing it wrong
< 1259560785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yummy stuff
< 1259560919 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay seems that song was exceptionally good
< 1259560998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1259561243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Futurama is not good for you.
< 1259561366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies
< 1259561407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bum bum BUMBUM bum bum BUMBUM bum bum BUMBUM bum BUUUM bum bumbumbumbum
< 1259561435 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :futurama is the dazzle.
< 1259561437 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1259561446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with the ->?
< 1259561459 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means i'm leaving
< 1259561468 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an important part of me
< 1259561473 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1259562261 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-14.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259562572 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1259562742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Lies.
< 1259563171 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259564049 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1259567778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :but tell me, hubert. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | esoteric programming
< 1259567785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :but tell me, hubert. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | esoteric programming languages
< 1259567999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended
< 1259568000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259568490 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x it is possible to do esoteric programming in non-esoteric languages
< 1259568498 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means?
< 1259568516 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like obfuscated c?
< 1259568519 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is possible
< 1259568532 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do non-esoteric programming in esoteric languages too
< 1259568539 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning AnMaster's topic change was... uh... well, I can't say it's any more or less apropos to what we talk about here, but it's more precise
< 1259568596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, hit newline too early by mistake
< 1259568600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the second change
< 1259568620 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. no deeper meaning, eh.
< 1259568658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl
< 1259568662 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya
< 1259569197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes!
< 1259569206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dear complingqueer! <3<3<#
< 1259569210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever
< 1259569241 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello!!1!11!!!
< 1259569259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do you go to school again?
< 1259569271 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I should mention I'm not too big a fan of computational linguistics. just compsci and linguistics.
< 1259569277 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stony Brook O_O
< 1259569280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right
< 1259569289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a cunt, now i remember
< 1259569291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so!
< 1259569295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics
< 1259569296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man
< 1259569303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how fucking awesome is linguistics, huh?
< 1259569306 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o
< 1259569311 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg you're so mean. *cries*
< 1259569319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION smacks gracenotes
< 1259569328 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha? yeah, linguistics. word word balls up.
< 1259569336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balls <3
< 1259569344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like
< 1259569349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to write a squib
< 1259569361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for syntax
< 1259569427 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come I've never heard of squibs before, eh :/
< 1259569444 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I think I know.. I'm not a linguist :x
< 1259569449 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squibs are short little papers
< 1259569462 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur
< 1259569467 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you release these?
< 1259569474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they often dont try to solve problems, just make note of them
< 1259569476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever
< 1259569483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre minor papers
< 1259569486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: what?
< 1259569497 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that not clear :(
< 1259569508 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you release these squibs (im assuming you've written more than one)
< 1259569515 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like an interesting tradition. they're useful perhaps because linguistics has a tendency to be a static field?
< 1259569560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: yes, sometimes i release them into the wild, but they usually find their way back to the lab. squibs have amazing homing ability, you see.
< 1259569577 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so link to them?
< 1259569606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, its more than linguistic phenomena are so diverse, and because of the shear amount of linguistic data we produce on a daily basis as individuals, its easy to miss things
< 1259569636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, some very obvious things went completely unnoticed for many many years, until someone or other said hey wait a second whats this now
< 1259569656 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: hm.. I kind of see what you're talking about. I've read way too many models of aspect that were based on a subset of language, rather than comprehensively trying to establish some universal terminology
< 1259569673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not even that, right
< 1259569676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its more like
< 1259569721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, look, if you werent ever told about the oddities of depictives, would you ever notice them?
< 1259569743 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, as a result, you get so many combinations of linguists and languages where "perfective" means different things
< 1259569753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the peculiar fact that all D quantifiers are conservative?
< 1259569777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well, sure. real linguists dont have those problems :P
< 1259569792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're probably reading silly non-theoretical types!
< 1259569793 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is this formal theory you're talking about?
< 1259569802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1259569825 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how purely formal? independent of any spoken language?
< 1259569831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1259569836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just data stuff
< 1259569843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :observations of the data.
< 1259569917 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever works... linguistics is still a young field
< 1259569929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is rather
< 1259569933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these facts are cool
< 1259569937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and intriguing
< 1259569939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and confusing
< 1259570054 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, in my experience, two linguistics professors arguing can produce some of the most humorous academic discussions ever. at least to someone less well-versed
< 1259570065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1259570154 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you not only hear them arguing over the propositions, but also over the very definitions they're using
< 1259570201 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly peppered with references to other linguists and personal interactions
< 1259570313 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, computer science has existed for a relatively short time too, but our field has a rather constructivist outlook, with hundreds of years of mathematical thoroughness behind us
< 1259570350 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is essentially anything but constructivist
< 1259570368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut
< 1259570413 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o
< 1259570491 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, you have some formal models, insofar as they play nice with data. I hope I'm not coming off as anti-linguistics, by the way.. I love the field, just don't seem to have the time to spend
< 1259570650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1259570756 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259570793 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, I'm leaving for my college in 2 hours and still haven't fully packed
< 1259570814 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, hi ais523
< 1259570831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1259570843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION predicts that quantumEd = ehird simply from one sentence
< 1259570849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, it's fax
< 1259570852 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1259570858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have guessed ehird wouldn't have been awake this early
< 1259571170 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259571678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man
< 1259571681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need seep now
< 1259571683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night guys
< 1259571718 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't seep here, I just cleaned the floor
< 1259571735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1259571742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION seeps all over Asztal
< 1259571752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night, sirs!
< 1259571908 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night
< 1259571922 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..gotta fall asleep soon.. wake up soon..
< 1259572538 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1259574095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259574124 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259576550 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-94-179.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259576767 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1259576907 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-42-16.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259577475 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259578380 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"
< 1259578799 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
< 1259579018 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259581199 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-41-191.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259581403 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
< 1259582703 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259583033 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259586396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, what a confusing spam
< 1259586421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wants me to call <phone number> and send my names, address, age, occupation, phone numbers to <email>
< 1259586430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either the phone number or the email, I could parse the sentence
< 1259586438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but both, I'm mystified
< 1259586452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like I won't be claiming the million pounds from the nokia lottery after all
< 1259586525 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you were so close to happiness
< 1259586698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely enough, all the names in the scam were reversed, as in surname before first name
< 1259586698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it was a UK phone number (starting +44) and the spam specifically claimed to have been sent from the UK
< 1259586761 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in uk, you do first, last?
< 1259586770 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what we do in finland
< 1259586783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, you aren't sure?
< 1259586800 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea, well, both are used
< 1259586807 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's the answer
< 1259586843 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've always thought the first name should be first
< 1259586869 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this conversation will get confusing if we use "first" for two different purposes
< 1259586882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"given name", "family name" are unambiguous; in the UK they're pretty much always in that order
< 1259586946 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Hungary was the only European country to use FamilyName GivenName.
< 1259587000 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first name is unambiguous
< 1259587011 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, perhaps confusing
< 1259587077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: yes, and it was pretty confusing when I was at a conference in Hungary
< 1259587091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because half of the people had reversed their names to simplify things for the British visitors
< 1259587094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other half hadn't
< 1259587105 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1259587126 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that ends in cz is the surname
< 1259587152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungarian doesn't have a cz, IIRC
< 1259587153 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my cellphone died :<
< 1259587163 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait am i thinking polish or something
< 1259587167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, probably
< 1259587271 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea of capital letters for the family name.
< 1259588129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523
< 1259588485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, camel case?
< 1259588501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(based on etymology)
< 1259588653 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: e.g. ERDŐS Pál
< 1259588680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in Swedish that would work for many common names. Name combinations (translated) like this in shell syntax: {North,South,Leaf}{branch,stream,country} are pretty common
< 1259588695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo some tiny spelling changes to make it sound better
< 1259588748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course the list of words to combine is longer in reality, and not all combos are used)
< 1259588753 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259588793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, my family name is of that type for example. But with a bit unusual spelling
< 1259588808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the point is you could camelcase it
< 1259588809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like:
< 1259588831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SöderKvist (en:SouthTwig)
< 1259588856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when you think about it, most such names doesn't make a lot of sense)
< 1259588894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that my surname is also a compound word, I guess you "could" CamelCase it too into KallasJoki if you really really want.
< 1259588902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259588908 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like most of Japanese surnames' etymology
< 1259588963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does it mean?
< 1259588996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puzzlet, oh? compound names are common there?
< 1259589015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:joki translates to en:river, while fi:kallas is a bit trickier to translate... it's basically a bank (as in "bank of a river", the border of water and ground) though I think it carries a connotation of an especially steep bank, not just any sort of bank.
< 1259589023 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"KuraMoto" literally means storage-basis for example
< 1259589036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259589037 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit archaic term, I don't think I've seen it anywhere else than names.
< 1259589044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puzzlet, storage-basis?
< 1259589050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259589055 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just combination of chinese glyphs
< 1259589062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it's a lot better than our former family name.
< 1259589065 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appparently my surname, Houghton, means "Settlement in a corner of land" but it's not really CamelCase-able :(
< 1259589067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh?
< 1259589082 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sometimes means something, like KoIzumi - small spring
< 1259589119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is a bit hard to actually camel case due to the "change around the spelling a bit" thingy
< 1259589142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I leave it as a exercise to any Swedish or Swedish-speaking readers
< 1259589156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it isn't hard to track down *shrug*)
< 1259589170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, they changed a couple of generations ago from "Kakkinen"; now, I'm unsure whether it actually means something specific, but fi:kakka is a slang/informal term for human excrement, and the -nen is a bit like a (rare-ish) diminutive suffix, so I guess you could translate it as "little shit".
< 1259589171 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here in Korea, almost all surnames are monosyllablic
< 1259589188 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kim, Lee, ... you know.
< 1259589193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did it mean that back then? If it is slang these daus
< 1259589195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :days*
< 1259589224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Possibly not, but it would not exactly be a too nice name to have now.
< 1259589267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also camel case all those "-son" names in Swedish. Like Svensson/Svenson (spelling varies). Could be turned into SvensSon/SvenSon
< 1259589282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess that is the archetypical "Swedish" name)
< 1259589286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are, in fact, 207 currently living people in Finland with that surname; that's more than us, there's only ten people with Kallasjoki.)
< 1259589289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or stereotypical rather)
< 1259589301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh
< 1259589411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And from what I hear, before Kakkinen the (original; had none before *that*) surname used to be some sort of old-Swedish g-rich word that had the meaning of "a short, barrel-shaped man"; given to some ancestor in someone's army in some war. I don't remember the details well, and they might be incorrect anyway.
< 1259589558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't think of such a Swedish word, so I guess that word is no longer in use
< 1259589677 0 :asciikierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259589679 0 :asciikierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka
< 1259589680 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1259590700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259592311 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259592834 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259593250 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259593254 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259593320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc
< 1259593330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1259593345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw what is 1/INFINITY in double floating point?
< 1259593364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming IEC 60559 conformance of course
< 1259593381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes that would be 0
< 1259593394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah, that or some SMALLEST_DENORMAL_NUMBER
< 1259593417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot say i've read the standard...
< 1259593470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't say I have it, I only have C99 standard, witch refers to IEC 60559 for many details.
< 1259593548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1259593561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IEEE 754 == IEC 60559
< 1259593588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess 0, too. MATLAB gives true to "(1/inf) == 0" and it counts with double precision by default, though it might need some strictness flags to be, well, strict.
< 1259593690 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1259593697 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should return to my C64 OS idea
< 1259593698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes that seems to be what happens. But then there is another question: Is this specified? Or could it vary between implementations?
< 1259593701 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need to look for
< 1259593703 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dundundun*
< 1259593705 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RESOURCES
< 1259593736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am under the impression that IEEE 754 does not leave much wiggle-room for implementations, but that is also just a guess.
< 1259593754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, since I don't own a copy of it :/
< 1259593820 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://steve.hollasch.net/cgindex/coding/ieeefloat.html claims that n (where "n" seems to be any not-special number) divided by +inf or -inf would be well-defined as 0.
< 1259593870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1259593905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you'll then have to decide whether you choose to believe some random Steve.
< 1259593989 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/inf = 0
< 1259594004 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i swear on my mother's grave
< 1259594039 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would probably sound more convincing if my mother was dead
< 1259594076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259594095 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: If she's not dead, it sounds -- to put it mildly -- a bit suspicious that you have already prepared a grave for her.
< 1259594096 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1259594104 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, true
< 1259594106 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/inf == 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...............1
< 1259594110 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess
< 1259594114 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dots represent infinite 0's
< 1259594139 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that does make sense
< 1259594139 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course rounding it to any fixed-point or floating-point format gives us 0
< 1259594178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the range of numbers that are denormal for doubles? Again I'm unable to find that due to not owning spec.
< 1259594185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's not _that_ unusual to reserve graves in advance...
< 1259594192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes about as much sense as the "0.999... is not the same as 1" "proofs" you get; I've seen the hypothetical 0.000...1 number there.
< 1259594230 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah everyone knows the cauchy sequence 0.000...1 is in the same equivalence class as 0.000
< 1259594231 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1259594232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, um... 0.9999.... *is* the same as 1. Given that the ... means "continue forever"
< 1259594236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seen a proof for it
< 1259594237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, perhaps not; I imagined an already-dug open pit, just waiting for oklopol's mother, which might be a bit more uncommon.
< 1259594239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to remember it
< 1259594243 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh
< 1259594246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you'd think
< 1259594252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but there are also a large number of "proofs" for the opposite.
< 1259594262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1259594262 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.999999999999.................. rounds to 1!
< 1259594263 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof is as follows: lim sum (9/10)^i = 1
< 1259594264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: there is no final 1 in the representation of any real number
< 1259594274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, for 0.999... ?
< 1259594280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1259594315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its sum is 1/10 * 1/(1-9/10) = 1
< 1259594320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I think the proof I saw was a bit different.
< 1259594326 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 = 0.333...
< 1259594332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about doubling it or such
< 1259594335 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.333... * 3 = 0.999...
< 1259594339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can write an uglier proof
< 1259594343 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 * 3 = 0.333 * 3 = 0.999
< 1259594346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait. no that was another one
< 1259594349 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not exactly hard
< 1259594351 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 * 3 = 3/3 = 1
< 1259594354 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.999 = 1
< 1259594392 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just proves multiplication isn't the inverse operation of division!
< 1259594393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, um?
< 1259594406 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.999 = 1 and 0.001 = 0; now I get it!
< 1259594411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oklofok -----###
< 1259594411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, the bus! I'm missing it. ->
< 1259594439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food ->
< 1259594455 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROUGH ANIMAL SEX
< 1259594456 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1259594474 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also reading this book.)
< 1259594479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no it doesn't prove that. It just proves that asiekierka doesn't know how to handle numbers that aren't exactly in decimal.
< 1259594517 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i have this, call it a hunch, thing, that asiekierka has absolutely no idea what real numbers are
< 1259594525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.33333... given that ... is "continue forever" is *exactly* 1/3. Multiplying it with 3 will *not* yield 0.999..., but exactly 1
< 1259594530 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no offense :D
< 1259594534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that assumes it is really infinite.
< 1259594544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yeah I think that too
< 1259594547 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to go buy that... umm
< 1259594557 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we call it "cucumber salad" here i think
< 1259594579 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay some hits
< 1259594902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You with your silly numbers, I almost missed the bus.
< 1259594976 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you only have 0.000....01 seconds to spare
< 1259595003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if not less!
< 1259595013 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err...
< 1259595030 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean 0.000...001 :P
< 1259595054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 0.000...003 or so.
< 1259595077 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.000...00333333...
< 1259595098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your obvious attempts to make me go mad with rage are failing, just so you know
< 1259595113 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1259595136 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know how hard it is to ask an analysis prof about nonstandard analysis
< 1259595145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1259595147 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me like 20 minutes to get him to talk about hyperreals
< 1259595177 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then turned out he used to do it in his crazy youth)
< 1259595233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A skeleta-number in his closet.
< 1259595277 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259595302 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I run out of electrons too, meh. ->
< 1259595379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you positive?
< 1259595431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not the best time to ask
< 1259595450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm will == always return 1 for true in C? After all, everything non-zero is counted as true
< 1259595571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue: check if two int containing the result of a logic test are the same. Need C89 here.
< 1259595589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise casting to (bool) should make it well defined
< 1259595616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a bool type?
< 1259595634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C99 yes
< 1259595636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C89 no
< 1259595657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, bool is usually one byte. It can store the values 0 and 1 according to the standard
< 1259595891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1259595963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this is for a test suite. It would be a bit embarrassing if I had expected == actual and it turned into something like: 1 == 42.
< 1259596006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh I know
< 1259596008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do:
< 1259596015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expected = !!actual
< 1259596023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since return value of ! is speced to be 0 or 1
< 1259596025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1259596138 0 :Guest94377!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cerise
< 1259596168 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest43821
< 1259596656 0 :ais523_!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-bslsvtrlwiryhmqn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259596673 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<strider24> To me Wave is an experiment by Google to see how long they can hold the attention of people with a product that makes no sense.
< 1259596676 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss.
< 1259596761 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we discuss it on Google Wave?
< 1259596823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey that would be discriminating against people who have never used it and don't know what it is really about
< 1259596880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The relational operators (<, >, <=, >=, ==, !=) are also specced to yield either 0 or 1 always.
< 1259596887 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: in favour of people who have used it and don't know what it is really about?
< 1259596917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly! maybe.
< 1259596940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah, but since it is supposed to be a generic test suite for any function that is supposed to do the same thing basically, I can't know it isn't implemented using bitwise operators for example
< 1259596976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitstupid
< 1259596977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the !!x you mention is a reasonably common idiom too.
< 1259596988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitsilly operators should exist.
< 1259596995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what would they do?
< 1259597010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, something silly. Being always so serious, silliness does not naturally come to me.
< 1259597014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think that would be obvious from the name...
< 1259597037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks C are missing some useful operators: logical xor, bitwise and logical nor/nand. And what about nxor?
< 1259597053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logical xor is !=
< 1259597068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, 2 != 4
< 1259597070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are true
< 1259597074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not really
< 1259597087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a !! there on either side
< 1259597088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm so you mean converting to bool first
< 1259597101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm?
< 1259597107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could do that or the !! thing
< 1259597122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nfoo operators aren't so popular; they're always so negative.
< 1259597137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have just one ! on each side actually
< 1259597156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the hypothetical logical ^^ operator has the "can't be sensibly short-circuiting" problem.
< 1259597173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh good point
< 1259597180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the "looks like one of those anime-style smileys" problem.
< 1259597189 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAIRY GODPA--- oh wait, wrong channel to put my obsesion in.
< 1259597191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah for this one.
< 1259597225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for nor/nand via &&/||
< 1259597234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah
< 1259597239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about nxor?
< 1259597249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also we forgot xand and nxand
< 1259597250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==
< 1259597255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that those make sense
< 1259597265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with !s there too
< 1259597272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes
< 1259597284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but what about bitwise ones?
< 1259597294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be ~a == ~b?
< 1259597299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of !a == !b
< 1259597305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for nxor
< 1259597309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1259597314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~(a ^ b)
< 1259597323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right
< 1259597324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point
< 1259597362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, still, we need xand. First we need to figure out a meaning, because it currently has none.
< 1259597372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that usually called XNOR? Well, I guess NXOR makes as much sense.
< 1259597415 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's called XNOR
< 1259597498 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen NEXOR, but it was in a really old book
< 1259597503 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XNOR is much more common nowadays
< 1259597508 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or occasionally EQV
< 1259597512 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you start on that road, you might as well provide all 16 bitwise ops, even the always-false and always-true ones.
< 1259597521 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOV!
< 1259597545 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEXNANDORXOR
< 1259597590 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 14 is enough
< 1259597591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xneither snow xnor rain xnor heat
< 1259597651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is enough
< 1259597652 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xehird: if a variable relates to the existence of asiekierka, outputs 0
< 1259597656 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't, outputs 1
< 1259597685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd have expected some more 0 cases
< 1259597691 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1259597694 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are all i recall
< 1259597707 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just about to say that, but couldn't figure out a funny way to do it.
< 1259597710 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xehird: if a variable relates in any way to asiekierka, outputs 0
< 1259597719 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a variable relates to the topic, unchanged
< 1259597722 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, 1
< 1259597762 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure you got the joke
< 1259597831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xoklofok on the other hand cannot possibly output just 0 or 1
< 1259597852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although o is an option
< 1259598065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chirp*
< 1259598082 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well *you* do this integral
< 1259598085 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xasiekierka always outputs either 1 higher than the max number possible (for binary it's 2) or UNDEFINED.
< 1259598117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an infinite range, output *WHOOSH*
< 1259598134 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1259598140 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for an infinite range outputs INFINITY+1
< 1259598167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if this counts as a meta-*WHOOSH*
< 1259598196 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1259598200 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it, but it's funny
< 1259598208 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a range of 0 to *WHOOSH*
< 1259598297 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO it'll be *WHOOOSH*
< 1259598328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plausible
< 1259598959 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"xoklofok" is redundant, there's only one oklofok, so it makes no sense to make the operator exclusiv
< 1259598963 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exclusive
< 1259598971 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(excuse my Finnish)
< 1259599298 0 :ais523__!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259599313 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that makes no sense
< 1259599318 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my IP address, yet I didn't join
< 1259599332 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it knows my nickserv password
< 1259599353 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: my laptop disconnected from the internet and automatically reconnected
< 1259599406 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's correct, ais523 will time out or reset within a few minutes
< 1259599565 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish?
< 1259599608 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: leaving off trailing Es is a common AnMaster typo
< 1259599612 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they come after a v
< 1259599628 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right swedish = finnish
< 1259599651 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we can't have v as a suffix)
< 1259599653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, hm? Where was it?
< 1259599661 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's a typo I made
< 1259599668 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exclusiv" for "exclusive"
< 1259599671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1259599677 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I thought it was your style once I'd made it
< 1259599682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, I don't think I made that specific one?
< 1259599688 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not
< 1259599692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some yes, but that specific one seems very strange to me
< 1259599705 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god i hate this course, none of the integrals can ever be calculated
< 1259599706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, what about your laptop you said?
< 1259599715 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean seriously error function stuff
< 1259599718 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's connected as ais523 or ais523__, possibly both
< 1259599731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always some neat little trick you have to use
< 1259599751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well automatically reconnecting is a common behaviour of irc clients and bouncers
< 1259599754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,*
< 1259599754 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I'm waiting for students on this Java course to turn up
< 1259599763 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but you'd expect them to disconnect the original
< 1259599765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now that is another common typo, forgetting the , after "well")
< 1259599794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, well, it would possibly take a bit to timeout. Especially if your client isn't set up to automatically ghost it
< 1259599810 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoghost would be insane from my point of view
< 1259599821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public class JavaCourse
< 1259599824 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that when one connection's being flaky, I often connect on another one
< 1259599837 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't make sense for the flaky one to automatically boot off the consistent on
< 1259599839 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*one
< 1259599858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, good point
< 1259599916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259599969 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good, the world is sane
< 1259599972 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523
< 1259600022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't mean that, that's an obviously incorrect statement
< 1259600031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's slightly saner than I feared it would be
< 1259600525 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this time a potential function existed, so there was no reason to start integrating over the closed path
< 1259600591 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could think of it as leading in the right direction, because the wrong direction leads to an impossible integral.... it's just kinda annoying if you don't recognize it's an impossible one
< 1259600714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm while it is possible in English to get two copies of the same word after each other ("that that" for example), is it possible to come up with one that has three copies of the same word after each other?
< 1259600726 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buffalo^n
< 1259600741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true.
< 1259600753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about three "that" then?
< 1259600786 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said that that that has been said, has been said
< 1259600792 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i'm not sure that's a very good one
< 1259600807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, could you put out () to show parsing order please XD
< 1259600830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's missing a pair of quotes
< 1259600830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta-discussion about that (that that)?
< 1259600838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no
< 1259600859 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that that has been said" just isn't very good english.
< 1259600863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that which
< 1259600864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed"
< 1259600872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right
< 1259600876 0 :ais523__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host
< 1259600881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh
< 1259600905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so it is "who said that (that that has been said), has been said"?
< 1259600919 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a german example with something like '...das, dass das "das, das", das das...'
< 1259600928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259600934 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took that, and tried to remove quotes, because that's cheating
< 1259600947 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean 'eric said "that that that that that that that"'
< 1259600968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about: "using that that that construct outside contrived examples is really irritating"?
< 1259600970 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that's what i meant
< 1259601003 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda of quoted too
< 1259601005 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kind
< 1259601009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes
< 1259601029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but outside quoting/meta-discussion I can't think of any example
< 1259601044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even your first one was kind of quoting
< 1259601114 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god oh man
< 1259601118 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just compiled DC for the C64
< 1259601121 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a lot of getopt removals
< 1259601123 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 46kb
< 1259601129 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as the C64 has 64kb of memory
< 1259601130 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sucks
< 1259601142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DC?
< 1259601147 0 :ais523__!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259601147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desk Calculator
< 1259601148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in dc(1)?
< 1259601151 0 :ais523__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523
< 1259601156 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i guess
< 1259601165 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(esk) c(alculator)
< 1259601171 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the good thing is it at least COMPILED
< 1259601175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, I never heard of dc(1) being called "desk calculator"
< 1259601188 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if it's dc(1)
< 1259601189 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the that's are not at all quoted in mine, i don't refer to a that, except as a pronoun
< 1259601205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 3 + p
< 1259601205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6
< 1259601206 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dc_(computer_program)
< 1259601208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, that matches?
< 1259601211 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1259601215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right same then
< 1259601218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Dc  is a reverse-polish desk calculator which ---" starts my man page.
< 1259601232 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DC = Desk Calculator
< 1259601239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same, except mine omits the word "desk"
< 1259601239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259601283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually mine as "dc" in lower case too
< 1259601287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even at start of sentence
< 1259601303 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll attempt dc 1.03
< 1259601324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, don't use GNU one
< 1259601330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a BSD one
< 1259601333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will definitely be smaller
< 1259601338 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of calculator is GNU bc, then? Blobby? ("Basic", says the WP disamb page.)
< 1259601340 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea
< 1259601350 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bc = bloated calculator
< 1259601369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, bc is POSIX, while iirc dc isn't?
< 1259601375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might misremember that though
< 1259601383 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc was in unix back in the 70's
< 1259601386 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was assembler tho
< 1259601401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least bc has a POSIX man page but dc doesn't
< 1259601425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  The bc utility is implemented historically as a  front-end  processor  for  dc;  dc  was  not  selected  to  be  part  of  this  volume  of
< 1259601425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  IEEE Std 1003.1-2001  because  bc  was  thought to have a more intuitive programmatic interface.  Current implementations that implement bc
< 1259601425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  using dc are expected to be compliant.
< 1259601430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly
< 1259601438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was quote from said one
< 1259601447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree however. dc is more intuitive
< 1259601764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bc is just an awful bloody hack.
< 1259601776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, compiling down to dc?)
< 1259601801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, GNU bc doesn't do that
< 1259601835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it compiles down to a different bytecode to execute.
< 1259601869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with compiling to bytecode before executing something
< 1259601900 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259601903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a start: often it makes execution a lot simpler)
< 1259601987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a dc-like bytecode.
< 1259602014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what the internal bytecode of dc looks like
< 1259602018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And decent chunks of the compilation logic are written in that.
< 1259602026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what?
< 1259602039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are parts of the compilation logic written directly in bytecode?
< 1259602046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In bc, yes.
< 1259602061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why
< 1259602067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No good reason.
< 1259602073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just are.
< 1259602079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the bytecode in question look like?
< 1259602085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc.
< 1259602103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except with random bits changed for no good reason.
< 1259602105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not like asm-style bytecode then?
< 1259602116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, not asm-style bytecode at all.
< 1259602127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... that wasn't what I meant
< 1259602168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant as in "bytecode which has a model similar to that of, say, python bytecode, or one more like the bytecode of PCRE"
< 1259602205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the latter is not as "imperativeish" as the former
< 1259602289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^
< 1259602920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night"
< 1259603439 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1259603470 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, GNU dc uses bc's libraries
< 1259603476 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as bc is more advanced
< 1259603480 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it adds in bc's bloat
< 1259603522 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also
< 1259603527 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where can i find any source code for BSD dc
< 1259603624 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix contained it since like the fourth/fifth unix edition
< 1259603775 0 :Guest43821!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cerise
< 1259603834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259603958 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an old unix DC is 35kb of PDP-11 assembler
< 1259603974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, good luck porting that.
< 1259603978 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i won'
< 1259603979 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t
< 1259603983 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not touching assembler
< 1259603990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring
< 1259603993 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... no
< 1259604029 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATM: browsing the source for the 7th edition and seeing if it got any bette
< 1259604031 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r
< 1259604047 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES
< 1259604048 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES
< 1259604050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, write your own implementation?
< 1259604052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh
< 1259604053 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 31 kb dc.c file
< 1259604056 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i love porting
< 1259604058 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate coding
< 1259604062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug*
< 1259604079 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an exercise i'll attempt porting that
< 1259604080 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm crazy
< 1259604088 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1259604090 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i won't
< 1259604097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not?
< 1259604109 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks insane
< 1259604121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, so?
< 1259604184 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah. "too many errors"
< 1259604187 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "obsolete feature"
< 1259604193 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This'll take a WHILE...
< 1259604288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at fpclassify() macro.
< 1259604308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nasty, it evaluates the parameter several times in the glibc implementation
< 1259604408 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing that had to be done is move "main" to the end
< 1259604638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian mailman reminders day!
< 1259604658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah
< 1259604668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a holiday that can't be missed
< 1259604670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fpclassify() is really nasty
< 1259604695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it is 1 December already over there?
< 1259604728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, in local time I'm 20 in... uh.. 24-(19+18/60) hours
< 1259604765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1 December is your birthday?
< 1259604768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes
< 1259604811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian birthday, then
< 1259604817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah :)
< 1259604818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks
< 1259604877 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my
< 1259604883 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that source code is a retarded mess
< 1259604890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is your last day of being a teenager, ever
< 1259604905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm aware
< 1259604908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that bad?
< 1259604913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably irrelevant
< 1259604929 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can you guess what this dc program is doing? (There should be an International Obfuscated DC Code Contest...)"
< 1259604965 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree
< 1259604967 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IODCC
< 1259605031 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll upload the source code on my server
< 1259605126 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's even old sed code there
< 1259605169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259605172 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: big birthday party coming up huh?
< 1259605185 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/dc-old.zip - that's for you, AnMaster, as a birthday present maybe
< 1259605203 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i invited
< 1259605203 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: if you want to port a light dc, maybe you have more luck with p9p version
< 1259605207 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.swtch.com/plan9port/src/tip/src/cmd/dc.c
< 1259605213 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly 2300 lines, no asm
< 1259605218 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1259605223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no, that was moved to last Sunday due to tomorrow being inconvenient. I would have been unable to attend at all for example
< 1259605228 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses some plan9 libs, but it should be easy to by-pass that
< 1259605232 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, yiyus
< 1259605234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not a big party. Just a few relatives
< 1259605237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate big parties
< 1259605244 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this one may roughly be related to the unix v7 one
< 1259605262 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup
< 1259605276 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a port of (probably a bit newer) the version from unix v7
< 1259605282 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so someone did what i was doing
< 1259605284 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL
< 1259605301 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traditionally i've sat alone in my room during birthdays and avoided all human contact, but it's become slightly harder now that i live with a girl.
< 1259605311 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it is probably a port from the last research unix from bell labs
< 1259605343 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey
< 1259605344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, heh
< 1259605346 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe i could get like a lock
< 1259605346 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that compiles farbetter
< 1259605364 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, plan9 dc was a port from unix, p9p dc is a port to unix from plan9 dc
< 1259605368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh?
< 1259605370 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is an infinite loop
< 1259605377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, why that extreme?
< 1259605382 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1259605393 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well kinda hard to be alone without a lock
< 1259605393 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a port of a port
< 1259605396 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while i only attempted a port
< 1259605418 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :girls are always like uhh big day let's cuddle
< 1259605444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, anything wrong with that?
< 1259605489 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's against the tradition.
< 1259605512 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i lived with the chick when i had my last birthday too, so it's kinda too late.
< 1259605544 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one before that was with a girl, but that was after midnight, so it doesn't count
< 1259605581 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when i turned 18 it was awesome, i was alone all weekend, just coding up some random shit
< 1259605632 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so far changed errors and fixed them 'til line 766
< 1259605789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blk*
< 1259605789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :div(Blk *ddivd, Blk *ddivr)
< 1259605792 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agh, what now
< 1259605926 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Variable idetifier expected (a lot) and unidentified symbols for ddivd and ddivr
< 1259606068 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-11-29.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259606237 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259606915 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<asiekierka> line 814
< 1259606915 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<asiekierka> Blk* div(Blk *ddivd, Blk *ddivr)
< 1259606915 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<asiekierka> 3 "variable identifier expected"
< 1259606915 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<asiekierka> and 2 "undefined symbol:" one for 'ddivd' and one for 'ddivr'
< 1259606923 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my porting is currently stuck at thi
< 1259606925 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s
< 1259607091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, try another compiler that shows column too? Like clang?
< 1259607093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or icc
< 1259607134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is busy with a report with deadline soon
< 1259607212 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't
< 1259607215 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for the 6502
< 1259607216 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geez
< 1259607218 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can only use cc65
< 1259607228 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR i could port an old C compiler to the C64
< 1259607232 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use it to compile dcv
< 1259607233 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dc*
< 1259607458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, you could first make it compile with a modern one, then use that specific one?
< 1259607466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it is reasonably modern
< 1259607476 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made it compile with a modern version of dc
< 1259607478 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's what you mean
< 1259607481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, no
< 1259607481 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as it's hellabloated
< 1259607485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in modern compiler
< 1259607488 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a modern COMPILER thing
< 1259607490 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe
< 1259607495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :port it to current gcc. Then port it to that thing
< 1259607507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming cc65 isn't quite as messy
< 1259607516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also porting a C compiler to C64 would be more work
< 1259607526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that isn't just "make C compiler itself compile"
< 1259607539 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1259607540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is "rewrite parts of the C compiler to generate code for this system instead"
< 1259607542 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know
< 1259607710 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, cc65 works like this: turn C into ASM -> compile ASM :P
< 1259608667 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259609663 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259610000 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259610605 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-2-145.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259611616 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259612069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depends on the C compiler.
< 1259612112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says useless things
< 1259612441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh?
< 1259612459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, unless llvm has a backend for C64...
< 1259612464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCC and Small-C are easy to port, for example.
< 1259612474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oh, an LLVM-based compiler? That sounds painful.
< 1259612480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what?
< 1259612488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you mean like clang?
< 1259612494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah.
< 1259612499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be painful to retarget.
< 1259612507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write a new backend for llvm, and some system specific header files and you are done
< 1259612531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system specific header files = stuff like updating limits.h and such
< 1259612536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you might need a few more
< 1259612547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to actually tell the frontend of the sizes of those variables too
< 1259612549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still
< 1259612560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way easier than something like gcc I imagine
< 1259612578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small-C and PCC would be trivial to retarget.
< 1259612588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though Small-C only supports a subset of C.
< 1259612620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no structs or unions, and is K&R)
< 1259615973 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259616978 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1259619416 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection
< 1259619553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
< 1259620194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, llvm backend is not too hard to write I think
< 1259620203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering there is a backend for PIC16
< 1259621840 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"brb"
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< 1259623092 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259623808 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1259625547 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection