< 1259366403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yeah < 1259366410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it does mean a power of two iirc? < 1259366411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next question: I'm interested to know what you might be working on where you can't assume CHAR_BIT = 8 < 1259366413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it sounds fun < 1259366422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, IIRC at least one system has CHAR_BIT == 9 < 1259366431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 18-bit ints and 36-bit longs < 1259366479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : next question: I'm interested to know what you might be working on where you can't assume CHAR_BIT = 8 <-- actually I can, but I spotted a possible correctness error in cfunge's "print out build info" where it prints out printf(..., sizeof(void*) * CHAR_BIT, sizeof(funge_cell) * CHAR_BIT); < 1259366485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turned out if was correct < 1259366508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what would C do on a ternary system? < 1259366513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"not work"? < 1259366522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not define uint16_t nor uint32_t < 1259366527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would have to do arithmetic as if in binary < 1259366536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and CHAR_BIT wouldn't be defined? < 1259366537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would imply padding and all sorts of similar nasty tricks < 1259366542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be CHAR_TRIT? < 1259366554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHAR_BIT would be the log base 2 of the max value of an unsigned char plus 1, just as in binary < 1259366561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be incredibly inefficient, of course < 1259366567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259366577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so basically it would emulate a binary system? < 1259366596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259366622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does ternary intercal do the arithmetics in ternary or in binary? < 1259366630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, internally < 1259366636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the INTERCAL writes it as ternary < 1259366645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internally there's a lot of *3, /3, %3 < 1259366647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and loops < 1259366652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259366658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well internally was what I meant < 1259366690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm I still think .1i should exist :/ < 1259366705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as the whole way up to .32i < 1259366709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least < 1259366717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: extrapolating, that would mean there were no operators and all constants would have the value 0 < 1259366724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and be an infinite number of digits long < 1259366732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes so little sense I might add it < 1259366743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm what about .0i? < 1259366747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and .-1i? < 1259366765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one is probably about as silly as turkybomb < 1259366767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think those actually would be impossible, or at least there would be no way to make them happen < 1259366775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, base -2 is a lot saner than base 0 < 1259366781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1259366787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth is base -2 < 1259366789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me < 1259366803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. 8 = (-2^4) + (-2^3) < 1259366810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 8 is 11000 in base -2 < 1259366819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that two-complement? < 1259366821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll find all positive and negative integers have a unique representation < 1259366827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't two's complement, it's base -2 < 1259366838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just define it with the generic equations for arbitrary bases, and you'll find it works < 1259366853 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 0???? < 1259366855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you don't need any special storage for negative...err positive numbers? < 1259366865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: I don't believe that makes sense < 1259366869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what is -8 in base -2? < 1259366872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you don't need special storage for negative /or/ positive < 1259366875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-8 is just 1000, of course < 1259366882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's (-2)^3 < 1259366889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 9 and -9 then? < 1259366906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 would be 11001, -9 would be 1011 < 1259366912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't figure out the storage scheme that makes it work
< 1259366918 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :storage?? < 1259366928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well whatever < 1259366936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so if there are two leading ones it will be positive? < 1259366960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, depends on odd/even location < 1259366961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, shouldn't those be "minus ones" < 1259366965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than "ones" < 1259366969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, those are 1s < 1259366978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not minus ones < 1259366978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do the same thing with 0 and -1 as the digits, but 0 and 1 is more conventional < 1259366981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and easier to write < 1259366985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1259366993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is .3i balanced ternary? < 1259366995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a Stargate: SG-1 addict
< 1259367012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as you should know, INTERCAL doesn't put any interpretation on bitstrings/tritstrings usually < 1259367025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unbalanced ternary for the purposes of WRITE OUT, READ IN, and # though < 1259367037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are AFAIR the only places you can tell < 1259367041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm right < 1259367216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway .-2i sounds like a nice idea < 1259367233 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259367255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and for .1i I think mingle would be addition < 1259367256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1259367287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because you're mingling two infinite streams of zeros < 1259367290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :into another infinite stream of zeros < 1259367295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :select likewise doesn't produce useful results < 1259367302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1259367320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about balanced binary? You have +.5 and -.5 < 1259367332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure this makes sense at all) < 1259367366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's binary shifted one bit < 1259367367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1259367379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because halving values is just the same as moving one digit to the right < 1259367379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, half a bit? < 1259367393 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 1 < 1259367397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, +.5 or -.5? oh, that's like binary where each digit is +1 or -1 < 1259367402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you can't have finite numbers at all < 1259367414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, what about balanced binary then? < 1259367419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it even possible? < 1259367421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do it < 1259367470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm can you do balanced for any even base at all? < 1259367477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, all the odd ones < 1259367483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259367486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think all bases above 2, but it's unbalanced balanced < 1259367488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, please read again < 1259367496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, hm can you do balanced for any even base at all? yes, all the odd ones < 1259367499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you can do base 4 with -1, 0, 1, 2 < 1259367499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the odd even ones? < 1259367514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? How is 4 odd? < 1259367523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, please read again < 1259367528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259367534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, I think all bases above 2, but it's unbalanced balanced < 1259367537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259367564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about fractional bases? < 1259367568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even irrational ones < 1259367591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the issue there is you either have some numbers unrepresentable if you round down with the number of digits < 1259367598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more than one representation for numbers, if you round up < 1259367609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the second case it's often possible to put a restriction on that makes them unique < 1259367618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that for irrational you mean? < 1259367620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for fractional? < 1259367621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base fibonnacci, for instance, is pretty close to base golden ratio < 1259367626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: either, doesn't matter < 1259367645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm some numbers are unrepresentable in integer bases too. Like pi < 1259367655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not sure how this makes a difference? < 1259367657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, it just takes an infinite number of digits < 1259367666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you can't even get to within arbitrary accuracy < 1259367673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259367677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you have digits 0, 1, 2 in base pi, there's no way to get within 0.01 of 3.1 < 1259367702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could make a fraction in base pi? < 1259367716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1259367720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would go on for an infinite number of digits if representing a rational < 1259367722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi-imals < 1259367724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1259367730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like integral bases go onto an infinite number of digits if representing pi < 1259367733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure. < 1259367735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'd be more than one way to do it, too < 1259367739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming digits 0, 1, 2, 3 < 1259367743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259367766 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: imagine if decimal had digits 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 < 1259367769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this bit about there being more than one way is interesting < 1259367771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could represent 10 either as 1 0 or 10 < 1259367779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same concept, just less obvious < 1259367797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259367799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259367826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, less obvious indeed. < 1259367866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure this is a bad thing in an esoteric context however < 1259368544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION signs petition against the law that would give Peter Mandelson a dictatorship over the UK
< 1259368554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the petition wasn't even targeting the law for that reason < 1259370531 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259370539 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-5-155.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259370560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, who is that < 1259370571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a relatively infamous politicain < 1259370571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what sort of law would give anyone a dictatorship? < 1259370585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a law that let a specific person amend it with minimal safeguards < 1259370599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been done in Nomic so many times that it's easy to recognise in actual law < 1259370617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that even allowed by the constitution? < 1259370630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the UK doesn't have a written constitution < 1259370644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and given that it's a new law, it would just be amending all the bits that prevented that happening normally < 1259370649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new laws take precedence over old < 1259370667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the UK has a constitution formed by laws and precedences, there's no special restriction on amending it) < 1259370674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259370751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, such a suggested law would surely create lot of criticism in newspapers? < 1259370756 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259370761 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259370763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other media < 1259370775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: except that it's part of an anti-copyright-infringement law < 1259370783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect the newspapers want the law itself to pass < 1259370789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1259370812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason politicians seem unaware of the possibility that you don't have to accept or reject an entire law, you can amend bits < 1259370836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about EU level? Surely it would somehow be stopped there? < 1259370851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly, if they notice < 1259370855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be worth telling them < 1259370869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes exactly. Go do that? < 1259370933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also, might be worth emigrating somewhere. Noway or Switzerland maybe? < 1259370938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(neither are in EU iirc) < 1259370942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not planning to emigrate < 1259370962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think that given how mostly unpopular Mandelson is, if he started passing arbitrary laws the government would just get overthrown by force < 1259370987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how did he managed to become elected then < 1259370994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he is so unpopular < 1259371022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wasn't < 1259371025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was appointed to the house of Lords < 1259371041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does that mean. I forgot how UK politics work < 1259371051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two houses of parliament < 1259371056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the commons, which is completely elected < 1259371057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259371061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the lords, which is completely unelected < 1259371065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1259371067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traditionally, it was hereditary < 1259371071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nowdays? < 1259371073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, if your parents were lords, so were you < 1259371075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays, it's a mess < 1259371084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning? < 1259371088 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays you pay < 1259371098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a huge scandal recently where Lords memberships were allegedly paid for < 1259371110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's no democracy... < 1259371124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's generally accepted that the government can get anyone into the Lords they want to < 1259371129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they need them to have political power somehow < 1259371134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, and not intended to happen either < 1259371136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the police got involved < 1259371154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean the house of lords in general is undemocratic < 1259371176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it's strangely often saner than the commons < 1259371179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having such a thing should disqualify UK as being counted as a democracy < 1259371195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least hereditary lordships tended not to have an agenda < 1259371202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so actually made decent decisions as a result < 1259371205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, < 1259371241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the lords is powerless in theory because laws are passed only if both houses agree, or if the commons makes the same decision three times it overrides the lords whatever they say (remarkably recent rule, that one) < 1259371299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, technically he's Baron Mandelson now < 1259371304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the whole hereditary thing got reversed < 1259371312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that you get a title when you become a Lord, rather than the other way round < 1259371394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." strangely enough http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill does *not* list it < 1259371445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does that include people like famous artists and such that become "sir"? < 1259371457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's knighthood < 1259371465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an honour given by the Queen, for the purpose of honouring people < 1259371476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. so it is not related? < 1259371499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, unrelated < 1259371532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the traditional Swedish system they were related (iirc), thus the confusion < 1259371540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... ehird would probably be highly amused to know that Lord Mandelson was the Baron of Hartlepool < 1259371545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, Hartlepool! < 1259371549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hartlepool? < 1259371552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of it < 1259371573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been funnier if it was that small place where ehird lives though < 1259371586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1259371591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt there even is a Baron of Hexham < 1259371628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is Hartlepool a small place? < 1259371630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, there was as well (isn't one currently) < 1259371636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's large enough that people have heard of it < 1259371639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but small enough that they can't remember wh < 1259371641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*why < 1259371646 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baron wasn't a very high kind of noble < 1259371650 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baron was line manager of nobles < 1259371679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the new place where ehird moved though? < 1259371683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION forgot the name of it
< 1259371684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aubrey Geoffrey Frederick Rippon, Baron Rippon of Hexham < 1259371689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's allegedly a very small village < 1259371696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah < 1259371705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so there should be a duke of it < 1259371708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because < 1259371731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(isn't duke one of the higher ones?) < 1259371739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, not sure < 1259371802 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duke is the highest you can get without being a king or prince or something < 1259371824 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :princes tend to collect duchies < 1259371913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way. what exactly is the difference between an emperor and a king? < 1259371919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the name < 1259372057 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emperors are supposed to be above kings < 1259372070 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emperor is a sort of king-of-kings type arrangement < 1259372079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, so you could have several kings under a single emperor? < 1259372085 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, plausibly < 1259372102 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the emperor may be those kings, however < 1259372108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, I thought both were "head of state" technically though? < 1259372113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, hah! < 1259372137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY GUYS would you mind if I asked whether I could ask a question regarding permission to inquire about whether I may ask a question? < 1259372141 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have the situation of like the british empire < 1259372158 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where victoria became empress when she became Empress of India < 1259372165 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to being Queen of the United Kingdom < 1259372175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I did that before < 1259372175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1259372184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I think it was the same number of iterations < 1259372193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oklofok has changed the topic to: don't ask to ask. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1259372193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* adam_d__ is now known as adam_d < 1259372193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* FireFly (n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se) has joined #esoteric < 1259372193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklofok, may I ask if I can ask to ask? < 1259372198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there ^ < 1259372229 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have four, you have three. < 1259372232 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO I WIN. < 1259372275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I was faster. So I win < 1259372297 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your girlfriend told me that, but she elided the "I win" part. < 1259372313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See what I did there hyuk hyuk) < 1259372318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you mean she just said "so"? < 1259372339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess she was talking about dynamic linking then. < 1259372359 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL PLAYED SIR < 1259372493 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259372535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I don't play. I'm always deadly serious. < 1259372569 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, your girlfriend also said that. (OK, this one doesn't work as well but gimme a break, you're not giving me much material) < 1259372717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, nor is she. Due to not existing. < 1259373180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1259374665 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259374945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259375027 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259375394 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259376551 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259377780 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259378516 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259379109 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259379143 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259380387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259380957 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259381023 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1259381118 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259381243 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259381759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1259381761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup guys < 1259381764 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it goin < 1259382155 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1259382190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know you. :| < 1259382218 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur distrusts everyone he doesn't know. < 1259382229 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless hes hot and has a big cock. < 1259382276 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So long as you've got your priorities straight. Or, y'know, not so straight. < 1259382365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i learned a bit today about dependent types < 1259382376 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodie. < 1259382379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ive decided that types should be first class, just for fun < 1259382402 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, prototypes. < 1259382463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what < 1259382468 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cuz I wurve prototypes. < 1259382488 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259382507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prototypes, the brief: Every object has a prototype. That prototype is another object. To look up a method, you first check if the object itself has it, then if it doesn't, check its prototype (and its prototype, and its prototype, etc etc) < 1259382517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what prototypes are < 1259382520 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1259382524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean real first class types < 1259382526 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259382526 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured you didn't 'cuz you said "no what" :P < 1259382535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not typish enough for you? < 1259382540 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259382545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean like a real type system < 1259382549 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1259382558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i eman, your junk could be prototypes, i dont care, thats details < 1259382563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like the idea of stuff like < 1259382565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, say < 1259382580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions from types to functions over that type < 1259382602 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1259382608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in system f < 1259382649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\\a -> \x :: a -> x < 1259382660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which takes a type and returns an identity function for that type < 1259382668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dependent types < 1259382669 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesh. < 1259382669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1259382682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\n -> List n < 1259382693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which takes a number and returns the type of lists of length >= n < 1259382702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just type-to-type functions < 1259382721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its cool < 1259382724 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types especially < 1259382759 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I've wanted to make a language with first-class types for a while < 1259382760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this idea of constructing a programming language that would be able to catch all sorts of errors by doing a sort of back-calculation of what might go wrong < 1259382800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I wasn't looking at a functional approach < 1259382808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it would look at every single use of a function and say, ok, suppose this spits out an error, lets trace back where all the values could come from that are related to that error < 1259382830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: when you think about it, Gregor is kind of right; prototypes are first class types < 1259382836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are Class objects in Ruby and Smalltalk < 1259382847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its hard to define new Class objects derived from old ones < 1259382863 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are lots of ways of making types first-class that aren't prototypes, and even have a prayer of static analysis :P < 1259382866 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just like prototypes :) < 1259382868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prototypes in what sense? < 1259382872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its hard to define a prototype that is "a thing that is not this other thing" < 1259382898 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless ofcourse your prototype logic has some interesting fundamentals < 1259382903 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Prototype-based object systems. < 1259382928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a propositional aspect where you can construct a new object and make assertions about it such as opposite-of < 1259382943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not-equal-to < 1259382961 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sort of derives onto everything else regardless of whether or not they were explicitly prototyped off this object < 1259382986 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. I don't know of this concept < 1259382989 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1259382994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or better, language? < 1259383006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which concept? < 1259383009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prototype OO? < 1259383011 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259383013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self, JavaScript < 1259383016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1259383017 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :javascript does it poorly tho < 1259383018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh < 1259383030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like this: object literals + copy < 1259383030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that you give me an example, I know what you mean < 1259383055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of < 1259383064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, JavaScript is a suckfest :) < 1259383068 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I love it. < 1259383071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive been trying to think of ways to construct a prototype logic < 1259383215 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plof takes prototypes around another twist. < 1259383219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's beside the point. < 1259383415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor, wanna work on a prototypal logic? < 1259383437 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1259383814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to try to construct a form of logic that employs prototypes rather than the normal set of inference tools < 1259383817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno how it'd work but < 1259384022 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inference over prototypes? You could probably dance in that direction with something involving abstract interpretation, but inference is usually most successful in languages with limited state (that is, functional languages), whereas prototypes are basically pointless without state, so hmmmm. < 1259384043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it's unresolvable, 'ts just an uphill battle. < 1259384088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no by inference i mean like < 1259384108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logics usually let you do various sorts of calculations and stuff < 1259384114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of interesting sorts < 1259384131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and prototypes can potentially let you do different sorts of calculations < 1259384161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an example is stuff like typical vs. atypical behaviors < 1259384193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless otherwise specified, you can infer that any given dog will bark, have fur, four legs, etc. < 1259384195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, totally different direction. < 1259384195 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the prototypical dog does < 1259384201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesh. < 1259384213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having three legs doesnt make something not a dog, it makes it an atypical dog < 1259384248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just thinking of how to capture facts about human cognition and the problems of traditional necessary-and-sufficient-conditions definitions of things < 1259384301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, presently I'm thinking of how to sleep. < 1259384306 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the first step is to go to bed. < 1259384309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So baheeeeeeee < 1259384318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259384320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1259386882 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259388885 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259388924 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259390495 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259391560 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259395199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259395200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259399341 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259402410 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259402802 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259402870 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259402918 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259403999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259404401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Prototypes, the brief: Every object has a prototype. That prototype is another object. To look up a method, you first check if the object itself has it, then if it doesn't, check its prototype (and its prototype, and its prototype, etc etc) <-- what about the top prototype? < 1259404616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, when did you begin spelling "yes" as "Yesh" instead? < 1259405202 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's obviously an object that's the prototype of the first ones < 1259405221 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is its own prototype, in case the designers wished to make it follow the same pattern. < 1259405242 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean not that i know anything about prototyping < 1259405440 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: in a language of mine i had a sort of prototyping using "Cat is Dog but ...", most things were just data, because it was used for making maps for a game, so it was nice to be able to give a few properties things usually have and just say but if one is slightly different < 1259405448 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if that's at all close to what you meant < 1259405839 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really i just wanted to mention my but < 1259406753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, the problem with an object being it's own prototype is that you can get an infinite loop when looking up a method that turns out to not exist. < 1259406759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you made a typo < 1259406780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you do some sort of cycle detection < 1259406823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how bad the added overhead for cycle detection would be, but calling a method would probably be a very common operation. < 1259406889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, prototyping for game world objects isn't uncommon. Seen that several times before in MUDs and similar < 1259408129 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259408140 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259408536 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259408694 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah it'd be really hard to special case that one object < 1259408712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, that's cheating! < 1259408749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, because then it wouldn't have itself as prototype *in practise* < 1259408785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practice* < 1259408810 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also cycle detection can be done with O(1) overhead in non-threaded code, just take some number that represents "now", and tag all the things you check for methods with it, cycle = now-tagged prototype < 1259408843 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just need one tag field for each object < 1259408852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, you would need to untag afterwards, to prepare for next lookup? < 1259408856 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259408860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how comes? < 1259408872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why "number representing now", and not "boolean" < 1259408897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(boolean would still be O(1), i just knew you'd wine about this) < 1259408905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well okay, that would break if system clock was corrected by something like ntp < 1259408931 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, if you're a fucking retard and actually use current time < 1259408933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess you could use a incrementing counter < 1259408937 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259408943 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could not be a retard < 1259408948 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, a bit edgy today < 1259408950 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259408955 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eating time! -> < 1259408955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it isn't O(1) in threaded code right? < 1259408974 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm, you'd probably have a lock when checking for methods anyway. < 1259408977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threaded here meaning "multitasking" not "forth threading" < 1259408980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, why? < 1259408981 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah multi < 1259409002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, just make the GC lock, you could have concurrent lookups < 1259409017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use multi-read/single-write lock < 1259409032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is only needed when removing objects < 1259409034 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... err... why indeed... if prototypes can never be changed, just added to new objects, then the hierarchy cannot change during method lookup < 1259409036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for adding new ones < 1259409039 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually no need for a lock < 1259409051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so two thread could theoretically be traversing the hierarchy simultaneously < 1259409055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, and even if they can you only need to lock for writing, and per-object < 1259409064 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my system doesn't directly solve the problem < 1259409082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can have multiple-read/single-change kind of lock < 1259409126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, per object locking would probably have higher overhead than single global lock for changes in practise < 1259409145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practice* < 1259409170 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the "frozen hierarchy" comment was exactly because i originally thought you'd need a lock for the method lookup, because the hierarchy could change during lookup so that something really weird happens, but the hierarchy actually cannot change at all < 1259409259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, if you can do updates atomic you can do it lockless. Like "add method" and "remove method" < 1259409268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about "change to different parent" < 1259409277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that should even be supported < 1259409370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, add method actually can break things, say you first have the whole prototype chain for object A completely void of methods, then add method a() to each object on the chain, now if method lookup is being done while that change is done, then a() will be found at a random ancestor of A, even though logically only A's a() or no a() should be found (if adding of a()'s was atomic) < 1259409406 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway i don't know much about thread stuff, and i definitely don't know anything about using them efficiently < 1259409410 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really the eating -> < 1259409456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, about that last example, I'm not sure that the behaviour even should be well defined in that case < 1259409485 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now that i think of it, that's just a normal atomic action, nothing specifically related to prototype chains < 1259409495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple-readers/single-writer style of lock per object would however solve it < 1259409504 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but obviously if atomicity is in the language, it should be well-defined. < 1259409515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"atomicity" < 1259409516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so whould a single global such) < 1259409562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I'm pretty sure you can do it lockless using specialized data structures < 1259409564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1259409571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure this is a good idea in the general case < 1259412045 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-227.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259412514 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259412901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~/local/llvm/2.6/include $ du -sh c++ < 1259412901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :235M c++ < 1259412907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fucking hell < 1259412942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh pre-compiled headers < 1259412946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stand for almost all of that < 1259412968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system gcc doesn't seem to have precompiled headers < 1259413378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck more than half of my llvm directory is in the include directory < 1259413390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :240M out of 430M < 1259418118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl guests < 1259418530 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-19-10.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259419115 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259419483 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1259421647 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259421993 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259422019 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1259422085 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boc empty? < 1259422120 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259424458 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259424487 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric issues? < 1259424523 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone on? < 1259424628 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259425055 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259425113 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello lifeform? < 1259425131 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUDE < 1259425165 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric topics or different than i thought? < 1259425209 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page down? :( < 1259425269 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumed....i dont know...i was looking for a real esoteric chat...is this one? < 1259425327 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259425613 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the secret of the cube and fractal character of nature and no one mocks me? < 1259425658 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with fractal character of nature but I don't know what it is about the cube < 1259425709 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you interested in this or would it bore you? < 1259425721 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know beforehand < 1259425726 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am curious < 1259425784 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok...little intro: 1. the numbers....you know that opposite sides always make 7... < 1259425818 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7?? < 1259425826 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean dice < 1259425841 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes...sorry...lol < 1259425999 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like you MALDEK < 1259426032 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK do you know Ramon Llull? < 1259426047 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....no....who is it? < 1259426060 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wrote Ars Magna < 1259426107 0 :_MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-66.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259426136 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool...a man who completed what i will not achieve.....i like you too, btw...you are the first who is interested in those things.. < 1259426185 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1259426260 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259426264 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you replace the numbers 1-6 by chemical elements according to the periodical system you see balance at its best < 1259426274 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-66.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259426321 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 1-6 by holy numbers...1 stands for unity, 2 for dualism and separation and so on... < 1259426338 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on? What about 3? < 1259426388 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is the first stable relation (fathermotherchild)... < 1259426408 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may i ask what your deepest interests are? < 1259426451 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably something to do with computation and knowledge < 1259426462 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is the step to materia....plus/neutral/minus < 1259426485 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 is stable materia....but i am not a teacher...i am a seeker < 1259426496 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5? < 1259426556 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 is stable room....pyramid shape or stable life schape < 1259426564 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shape < 1259426582 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 is the cube again? < 1259426611 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you count faces for cubes, but vertices for tetrahedra < 1259426655 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :count faces for tetrahedra too then < 1259426694 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i was sure about what i know i would write a book...lol < 1259426702 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's not much there, really < 1259426714 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1259426722 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what you're saying < 1259426730 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cube has 8 sides < 1259426740 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top, bottom, left, right, front, back, in, out < 1259426741 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it has six < 1259426747 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cubes are solid objects < 1259426803 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cubes is a symbol to me of perfect balance < 1259426831 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK have you studied semiotics? < 1259426866 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not officially < 1259427020 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1259427058 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondered < 1259427078 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anyone that has < 1259427169 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw...pthing...if i had to write a program for "world" it would be a cube...space/orientation/balance of opposite powers...how can you say that there is not much there if you havnt spend some time thinking & drawin? < 1259427193 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have < 1259427227 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have worked out much better ways of talking about geometry and dynamics < 1259427297 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other people....what i know i found out myself...even if it is little and already known...but i dont use third party knowledge < 1259427311 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a problem, then < 1259427321 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem? < 1259427341 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ignoring everyone else < 1259427343 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you do that < 1259427375 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ignoring.....but to understand you have to start from scratch < 1259427392 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not really < 1259427393 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it matches nature then its good < 1259427405 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if it's a very poor match < 1259427407 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1259427449 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you waste lines on low level formated dudes like me then? lol < 1259427468 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't think talking to other people is a waste < 1259427481 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... < 1259427514 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas somebody who says "i have to work everything out from scratch and so don't use third party knowledge" is saying "i don't want to listen to anybody" < 1259427517 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ask myself : what would nature do? and it works out...thats enough for me... < 1259427547 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you need better standards < 1259427572 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody put also his personal perspective into his view.... < 1259427586 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said, quite boldly, you don't use third party knowledge < 1259427599 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is quite a great deal stronger than what you just said, isn't it? < 1259427625 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont see the problem < 1259427648 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is you are not really saying much < 1259427662 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know you're not saying much, you apologise, you say you're just the student, not a teacher < 1259427680 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have this dislike for "third party knowledge", so in what sense are you really a student < 1259427798 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok...in school we were told that we work with circles pi and so on....later you find out that you can build maschines with that but thats not what this universe prefers...everyone you ask has its own opinion and still you dont know how dns works for example... < 1259427812 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have a head and i can think < 1259427822 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe doesn't prefer anything < 1259427846 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen, i don't see how what you said follows at all from what I said < 1259427916 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe follows rules...those are certain to me... < 1259427941 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, and people who aren't you have worked out lots of them < 1259427950 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ones you'd never work out by yourself < 1259427956 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i want to discover for myself....there is nothing wrong in that < 1259427968 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong is not listening to other people who have < 1259427981 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you needlessly and pointlessly cripple yourself < 1259428001 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i CAN....thats why we have a mind < 1259428012 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can what < 1259428042 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can think for myself < 1259428057 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but it doesn't mean you can do everything yourself < 1259428091 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay with me in this....i said THINK not DO < 1259428105 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think to get rewarded < 1259428116 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with prizes or money < 1259428155 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way: you know a funny paradox? the peace-nobel-prize....thats how the human world is < 1259428169 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont follow that world.... < 1259428187 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you should < 1259428194 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i have to live in it < 1259428242 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we stop the ego show please ? i am not here for this....lol < 1259428262 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259428290 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo ed....sorry i got carried away.... < 1259428329 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway....pthing thanx for that little excursion....lol < 1259428339 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't be an excursion < 1259428447 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing..last line....i am like this because most stuff i learned in school was simply not true...and most scientific explanations follow the trace of money not wisdom.. < 1259428473 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am always open to people < 1259428481 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not concepts < 1259428487 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :school is shit, that's true, but it is not all bad < 1259428497 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is how it is with science too < 1259428529 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed still on? < 1259428540 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no point in despising it because people get paid to do it < 1259428596 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least ed likes me..... 8) < 1259428703 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1259428757 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhmm < 1259428767 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is 6? < 1259429113 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complete room so to say... < 1259429140 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry...i am a bit confused....the leftovers of pthing-talk < 1259429162 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't think? < 1259429173 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right...you busted me < 1259429182 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadstory < 1259429194 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no...same story < 1259429345 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 is 3 dualities balanced by 90 degree offset...creates the room and the stabelizing powers that something can grow in it < 1259429370 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean here by something? < 1259429395 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "room" and "creates" and "stabilising" and "powers" and "grow"... < 1259429398 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a cell < 1259429413 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259429420 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259429461 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any kind of materia < 1259429486 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is materia < 1259429505 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing...are you some kind of mind-officer? karma police?lol < 1259429518 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just somebody who wants to know how the universe works < 1259429531 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1259429542 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :materia is energy oscillating in grids < 1259429552 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean < 1259429554 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259429598 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Pthing is just gonna keep fucking this up because in his opinion you are wrong < 1259429602 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259429608 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion he is incoherent < 1259429613 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why i am asking questions < 1259429631 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I'm sticking with my guess < 1259429632 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb.....materia coming on a plate=food=energy...lol < 1259429643 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so materia is matter? < 1259429921 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259430026 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back...materia comes from mater, latin for mother....its the desciption for focused and stable energetic "cluster" < 1259430046 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay but you can describe matter in the same way < 1259430058 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why aren't you talking about matter < 1259430083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK, err I think you are confused about what this channel is about. It is esoteric *programming* languages < 1259430095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone removed that from the topic again < 1259430096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1259430097 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe because i am not a native english speaker < 1259430118 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok master....i get it.... < 1259430127 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, but then you'll be glad to hear that there is a lot known about the structure of matter < 1259430128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :don't ask to ask. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This channel is about esoteric programming languages. Please keep that bit in topic at all times. < 1259430139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, well yes. < 1259430147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :physics is fun < 1259430152 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also chemistry < 1259430155 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and chemical physics!!!!!!! < 1259430162 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also physical chemistry!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1259430166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, depends on what level you are talking about < 1259430170 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them < 1259430172 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are super < 1259430209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, as long as I don't have to calculate in mole. I got tried of chemistry in school at that point. < 1259430218 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moles are easy < 1259430226 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like < 1259430228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, not for me < 1259430230 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get a molecule < 1259430236 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THEN YOU GET A HUGE NUMBER OF MOLECULES < 1259430242 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the numbers work out okay < 1259430291 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1259430318 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, the thing is then, the structure of matter is nothing like how you're describing it with these integers < 1259430330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, except it turns out you ended up with mol per mm^3 when you wanted microgram per 1000 mole or whatever. And then you realise you won't have time to calculate it correctly before the time limit for the test is up! < 1259430345 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, well tests are the worst thing < 1259430357 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://irc2go.com/" < 1259430371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, depends. At university level I had no issues finishing math tests with more than half of the time to go < 1259430396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess that is because I don't have to actually do much calculation with numbers any more < 1259430406 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259430412 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1259430432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is all nicely abstract symbols or such by university. Or it is just trying to prove something < 1259430451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, stuff like figuring out induction proofs is a lot easier than calculating with mole < 1259430469 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man because that is the saddest thing < 1259430472 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just units < 1259430476 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like basic algebra < 1259430477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is? < 1259430479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mole? < 1259430481 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259430484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1259430487 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just another SI unit < 1259430500 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still here...cool...lets cut out what we were talking abot...something else..why are you interested in semiotics? < 1259430508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what? < 1259430523 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDER I don't know much at all about it actually, which is why I was wondering if you did < 1259430540 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a little about it < 1259430546 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's gibberish, but sometimes entertaining gibberish < 1259430584 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most useful, ironically, in the human world you don't want anything to do with < 1259430589 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed: at uni i had semiotics focused on cinema < 1259430603 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1259430615 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at this picture, http://scpd.stanford.edu/knuth/images/knuth_don_w200_h352_q60.jpg < 1259430630 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's such a big space < 1259430653 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like the space on bookshelves because knuth can't fucking finish a simple book series he started in the fucking 60s < 1259430706 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1259430714 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant open it < 1259430722 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes a moment < 1259430897 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed...ok...headroom and an old man.... < 1259430946 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think the headroom means? < 1259431031 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed...the presence of something invisible < 1259431112 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.# < 1259431159 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed...what does it mean to you? < 1259431236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK, space between head and ceiling? < 1259431271 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :master...there is no ceiling.... < 1259431377 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1259431519 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1259431589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK, go indoors then? < 1259431620 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :master...you lost me here...what do you mean by indoors? < 1259431670 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MALDEK I wasn't sure what it meant < 1259431743 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed...more important is what you feel in the first moment... < 1259431883 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the picture was a program, i would analize it by reverse-engineering methods...depends... < 1259432043 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my refresh function that slow? < 1259432133 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1259432158 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dinner time? where is the crowd? lol < 1259432412 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://irc2go.com/" < 1259432445 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259432493 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-5-155.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259432502 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo ed < 1259432921 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://irc2go.com/" < 1259433054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259433160 0 :MALDEK!n=MALDEK@i577A6077.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1259433231 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed? < 1259433261 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1259433276 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you get my reply? < 1259433285 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259433297 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bored? < 1259433306 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1259433318 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was this man?# < 1259433398 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth < 1259433416 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from http://scpd.stanford.edu/knuth/index.jsp < 1259433516 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i know him? what does he do? < 1259433525 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to < 1259433617 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a student there? < 1259433624 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259433758 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you a programmer? < 1259433762 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259433801 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok...i get it ...bye < 1259433853 0 :MALDEK!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://irc2go.com/" < 1259434292 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-172-5-155.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259434326 0 :Asztal^_^!n=asztal@host86-172-5-155.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259434638 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259435242 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259435267 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259435303 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259436227 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259436600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor, when did you begin spelling "yes" as "Yesh" instead? <-- Gregor likes cats so much he's turning into one. (see: Mutts) < 1259436746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : like the secret of the cube and fractal character of nature and no one mocks me? < 1259436768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds disturbingly like it could intersect the two meanings of esoteric... < 1259438786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi. iwc < 1259438823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1259442138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259442154 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259442436 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259443076 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1259444191 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259445056 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259448480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259450719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1259450729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, about to go home < 1259450733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"almost NULL deferences" are fun < 1259450733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bye, actually < 1259450737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, cya < 1259450739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection