< 1257379433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetically it isn't, really it is. < 1257379453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finding it absurdly difficult to find a freaking source tarball. < 1257379479 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funbot style! < 1257379495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: But, they offer source .debs. < 1257379496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.plash.beasts.org/packages/plash_1.19.orig.tar.gz < 1257379506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dankon. < 1257379559 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still pretty Debian-specific though. < 1257379581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to experiment for a bit. < 1257379590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it doesn't work, much violence will be performed. < 1257380251 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1257380260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc... gcc-4.1 -fno-stack-protector < 1257380261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1257380273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the attempt to build plash-glibc. < 1257380275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1257380432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hyuk < 1257380447 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1257381096 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257381128 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257381357 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-122.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257382197 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257382778 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1257382909 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1257382948 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1257383038 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1257384454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1257384928 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1257385317 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257389629 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1257389735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257390437 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1257390439 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1257390632 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Reboot" < 1257391678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391678 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391678 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391678 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391679 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391682 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391685 0 :Guest7354!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391686 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391689 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391689 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1257391734 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-44-9.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :Guest7354!n=serp@h-60-248.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391734 0 :Warrigal!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391775 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391775 0 :Slereah!n=butt@92.135.29.119 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257391783 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1257392828 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1257394882 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1257394941 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257401969 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257401979 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257403121 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you're still doing this clone-at-every-turn thing? < 1257403126 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257403553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think you'd be pleased to know that your elfloader thing (barely) works on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu. < 1257403579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though only on staticly linked binaries -- it throws up on trying to load /lib/ldlinux.so) < 1257403776 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257403784 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1257406393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257407553 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-62.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1257407999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1257408000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1257408188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does the elfloader thing do? < 1257408589 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]" < 1257409433 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257411408 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1257416342 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1257416346 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257417336 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257418990 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257419381 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257419481 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aargh < 1257419486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they blacklisted the PC speaker kernel module in 9.10 < 1257419489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid the beep-on-shutdown bug < 1257419497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is really not the right way to fix a bug... < 1257420249 0 :jix!n=jix@188-192-190-77-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1257422603 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257424285 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1257424358 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257425294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1257425314 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257425628 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1257425701 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1257425797 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257426775 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257426819 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257426976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, agreed < 1257427000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact, I would say that the new behaviour is a bug < 1257427014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwcx < 1257427016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc* < 1257427057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwc: the grammaring < 1257427259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1257427269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is irritated that sheepshaver requires sysctl -w vm.mmap_min_addr=0
< 1257427270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run < 1257427797 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1257428018 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257428996 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257429218 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257430227 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257430418 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257431396 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257431552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving..." < 1257431618 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257432642 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1257432758 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-186.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257432769 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1257433518 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1257433949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257434100 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1257434113 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257434751 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1257435009 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257435015 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257438776 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1257439333 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d90d9e@gateway/web/freenode/x-b77d1b35fa338212 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257439396 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1257441697 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1257441700 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257445804 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory_ < 1257445805 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory__ < 1257445829 0 :BeholdMyGlory__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory_ < 1257445841 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1257448180 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257448687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1257450321 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1257450497 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p5B133C8D.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257451636 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257453962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/technotes/tb/tb_10.html < 1257453966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the title is wrong there < 1257453971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree ais523 ? < 1257453981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" < 1257453982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly < 1257453991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really get what you're on about < 1257453994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[Mar 01 1988]" < 1257454002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, look at the date of that technical note < 1257454011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then look at the header thingy for that secion < 1257454013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :section* < 1257454017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" < 1257454025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, this is from before Mac OS X was invented! < 1257454029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all I know that API still exists in OSX < 1257454046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't think that would apply here. XD < 1257454248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also what about this one "Macintosh Plus Pinouts" < 1257454981 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257457066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh god, I just ended up being randomly highlighted by some noob so noobish I never seen anything as bad < 1257457122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what is googl < 1257457122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hadge_, web search engine. You know where you search in the browser. Maybe you use some other search engine *shrug* < 1257457122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have something called yahoo.com < 1257457136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh, why did I even answer the highlight < 1257457163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it gets worse < 1257457188 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1257457263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Anyone know how to restart a machine < 1257457265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1257457901 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-19-101.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1257457941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, have you seen ehird recently at all? < 1257457958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1257457978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea if something happened to his net connection or such? < 1257457986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, why would I? < 1257457999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. UK is small (area-wise) < 1257458000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1257458010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, at least compared to Sweden) < 1257458021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and yes I invented that justification afterwards) < 1257458206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wikipedia question: < 1257458209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"According to Archive.org since at least February 11, 2008 the URL address http://www.apple.com/hypercard no longer points to Apple's site but redirects to this Wikipedia article." < 1257458222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the "according to archive.org" but < 1257458223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit* < 1257458230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some policy reason for it? < 1257458231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for historical info, presumably < 1257458235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's a citation < 1257458241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it still does redirect like that < 1257458242 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1257458243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked < 1257458250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but why :P < 1257458263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this seems like it wouldn't need a citation. < 1257458267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe *shrug* < 1257458295 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1257458540 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1257458876 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257459662 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257460079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No original research! < 1257460232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays around with hypercard
< 1257460263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypercard is cool < 1257460270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. kind of < 1257460350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand what the lecturer was talking about, turing machines are totally fun to program and run manually < 1257460366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, heh? what did he say? < 1257460374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just accepted a^(2^2)
< 1257460381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You are probably in the minority, though. < 1257460386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he said the opposite < 1257460404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. < 1257460411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ours did, too. < 1257460438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not a basics course, although we are doing basics of tm's atm < 1257460439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. ← why? < 1257460466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because of the Conspiracy. < 1257460489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, they've tried to infect Wikipedia too: "Turing machines *are not intended as a practical computing technology*, but rather as a thought experiment representing a computing machine." -- emphasis mine. < 1257460499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1257460611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get two entirely different, but equally great pleasures, from 1. fitting tons of state interaction info in my head 2. running the machine without thinking, and watching it slowly do its magic < 1257460657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, heh < 1257460698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String rewriting languages are also nice to watch. < 1257460699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the proof for turing machines having the properties they do? < 1257460717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you can't reduce it to another turing complete language < 1257460719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean as long as the program is simple enough i can do it without any sort of compilation < 1257460724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that kind of defeats the point) < 1257460737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you do compilation, you might just as well use a better language < 1257460739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1257460750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what do you mean? < 1257460762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not sure XD < 1257460767 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CLOSURE PROPERTIES < 1257460777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, unkown. I'm too sleepy < 1257460782 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: IS YOUR SHIFT KEY STUCK? < 1257460801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the families of R and RE languages are closed under pretty much everything < 1257460814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, some things just need to be said in uppercase < 1257460876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean. How do you prove UTMs are TC. Basically. < 1257460881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't < 1257460885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from that being the definition of TC < 1257460896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets rephrase that < 1257460914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you do is you define turing machines and define computation as what they do. < 1257460933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the empty proof proves they are TC < 1257460938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1257460960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty proof heh < 1257460983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about the stuff about that being the best possible class. Well apart from those oracle machines (which no one explains how they would be implemented) < 1257461003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, yeah made me think of "empty set" < 1257461024 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's sort of relevant http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/ < 1257461038 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just really liked that article < 1257461053 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since he mentions turning machine :/ < 1257461060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not the best possible class, RE is a proper subset of 2^({0,1}*) < 1257461071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, there are languages that need a stronger machine < 1257461093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, best possible plausible class? Or what is the point of it < 1257461108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define plausible < 1257461115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I don't know < 1257461116 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's a whole pile of other models of computation, for which you can prove that a Turing machine can do the same things. The proofs of course depend on what you're comparing to. < 1257461122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: neither does anyone else < 1257461128 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster a lot of people say "turing machine/lambda calculus/whatever can compute anything you want it to" < 1257461137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I don't know *what* it is I don't know < 1257461140 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda vauge and meaningless as far as I could tell < 1257461192 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: turing machines have no mathematical property that makes them the best possible plausible class. < 1257461199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just correspond nicely to our intuition < 1257461204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what computation si < 1257461205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1257461227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1257461247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest you just believe me :P < 1257461258 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-26-96.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1257461259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway look up church turing thesis < 1257461319 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err well RE obviously isn't closed under complementation < 1257461328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1257461340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is very flexible < 1257461400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1257461404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1257461452 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1257461605 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1257461883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257462248 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257462390 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is no theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class in any way; the Church-Turing statement is the unproven statement that it's the best computational class we can build. < 1257462422 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, alternatively, the best computational class the brain can simulate. < 1257462658 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Actually, I'm sure there is a theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class where if the machine outputs something, there is a proof that it does. < 1257462682 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257462904 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1257463084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Church-Turing was that lambda and turning machine are equivalent < 1257463119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like I am wrong < 1257463136 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says on the wiki "Informally the Church–Turing thesis states that if an algorithm (a procedure that terminates) exists then there is an equivalent Turing machine, recursively-definable function, or applicable λ-function, for that algorithm. Today the thesis has near-universal acceptance." < 1257463152 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems odd because it use the word "exists" in a non-mathematical context < 1257463167 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also it's not clear where this places oracles < 1257463167 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, it does. < 1257463180 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It implies that oracles do not "exist". < 1257463183 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every effectively calculable function is a computable function" < 1257463188 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1257463231 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be quite nice if the Church-Turing thesis were that lambda calculus and Turing machines are equivalent. < 1257463285 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it isn't, so we'll have to stick with our Curry-Howard isomorphism. < 1257464879 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-26-96.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1257465307 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Turing machines can't exist, but close enough I guess < 1257465322 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While oracles are like double impossible < 1257465327 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)