00:00:17 I think I will use Dropbear for the standard ssh server and client. 00:00:20 http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html 00:09:13 hmm 00:09:19 What's the opposite of a dependency? 00:09:28 i.e., thing-that-depends-on 00:09:34 rather than thiing-that-is-depended-on 00:09:45 *thing 00:10:00 Depender? 00:18:32 independency? 00:18:32 ha 00:18:51 dependee? 00:19:15 ehird: http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/tools.html 00:20:04 Yeah, I know; but rabid devotion to olde unixes is not rational. You won't see any simplifying improvements from Heirloom. 00:20:09 Nevertheless, it is one option. 00:20:24 depender depends on dependee 00:20:41 though, I don't know if they are real words 00:20:42 http://asm.sourceforge.net/asmutils.html ? 00:20:44 MizardX: right, but I want the analogue to dependency :P 00:21:17 pikhq: Might as well just use Busybox then; more widely used, just as over-minimal and without the crazy assemblyness. 00:21:18 Thanks for reminding me of Heirloom, though. 00:21:20 Forgot about it. 00:21:34 Fair enough. 00:21:56 pikhq: If you're adventurous, could you see if the programs in `CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.NetBSD.org:/cvsroot cvs checkout -P src/bin` will compile on Linux? Small download. 00:22:15 Makefiles are broken without the surrounding tree; just do `cc -I. *.c -o name` in a directory. 00:22:21 Most compile here on OS X; some don't, though. 00:22:29 But then, OS X is basically BSD. 00:22:44 ehird: Lemme pull up my i686 vm. 00:22:55 Why, what are you using now? 00:22:59 x86_64. 00:23:02 Ah. 00:23:17 Shouldn't change things, but okay. 00:23:18 Heh, their ed doesn't support i 00:23:25 Though, it's *NetBSD*. I'd imagine they're somewhat smart about architectures. 00:23:28 Just a 00:23:35 wait, isn't that which depends a "dependent"? 00:23:44 The context is an error like: 00:24:15 $ rmpkg important-thing 00:24:15 Can't; (word)s are: 00:24:15 some-program 00:24:16 some-other-program 00:24:16 If you're sure, use -f. 00:24:23 i.e. can't; things that depend on this are: 00:25:06 So many compile errors... 00:25:20 Which program? 00:25:25 "ls" should work. 00:25:27 Most of them. 00:25:33 Erm, wait. 00:25:34 Does ed work? 00:25:45 cd ed; cc -I. *.c -o ed 00:25:48 No. 00:25:52 Errors? 00:26:04 buf.c:36: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant 00:26:13 buf.c:107: error: ‘MAXINT’ undeclared (first use in this function) 00:26:17 #if 0 00:26:17 static char *rcsid = "@(#)buf.c,v 1.4 1994/02/01 00:34:35 alm Exp"; 00:26:17 #else 00:26:17 __RCSID("$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $"); 00:26:18 #endif 00:26:23 ... It goes on further. 00:26:23 Somehow, I doubt that's the line 36 it's talking about. 00:26:45 static const char rcsid[] __attribute__((__unused__)) = "$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $"; 00:26:56 WTF is that error about, then? 00:27:22 Also... buf.c doesn't say MAXINT, anywhere. 00:27:52 I'm going to go try it on i686. 00:28:05 Oh, you were using the x86_64. 00:28:09 ... still doesn't explain it. 00:29:17 Incidentally, how's this for initlevels: 00:29:22 # kill -QUIT 1 00:31:40 ehird: How about "supports" ? 00:32:01 MizardX: Technically correct, but it seems odd — supports is generally used as in "X supports Y" 00:32:04 -!- iamcal has quit. 00:32:11 as opposed to "Can't; supports are:" 00:32:16 (contrast "Can't; dependencies are:") 00:33:25 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 00:33:28 "depended on by" 00:33:33 Yeah, that works :-P 00:34:59 Hm 00:35:20 It would appears that the problem with NetBSD tools is the macros are hard to hunt down & fetch... 00:35:43 Same issues on i686-pc-linux-gnu, BTW. 00:36:03 #ifdef INT_MAX 00:36:04 # define LINECHARS INT_MAX/* max chars per line */ 00:36:04 #else 00:36:04 # define LINECHARS MAXINT/* max chars per line */ 00:36:04 #endif 00:36:09 pikhq: I think the issue is just header files. 00:36:16 #if defined(sun) || defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__APPLE__) 00:36:16 # include 00:36:16 #endif 00:36:25 pikhq: -D__NetBSD__, wouldya? 00:36:48 ehird: is probably also causing issues. 00:37:14 Mmf. 00:37:30 Such a shame, because these tools are very good... well-maintained, compatible, yet simple. 00:37:54 May be able to get them to work with patching. 00:38:47 How? 00:39:12 pikhq: Oh, for ed, you need -lcrypt. 00:39:14 Just so you know. 00:39:17 Oh, and add -DDES. 00:39:25 Oops, and -DBACKWARDS 00:39:31 (Reading the Makefile) 00:39:48 Oh, I don't have an -lcrypt... 00:40:58 Hmm. Remove the sys/cdefs.h and the following info boilerplate, and... You get linker errors from nonexistent functions. 00:41:07 Since BSD libc has things glibc doesn't. 00:41:16 Hmm. 00:41:20 Got any alternative libcs in that VM? 00:41:25 Since I won't be using glibc... 00:41:45 Nothing that will have BSD extensions. 00:42:45 What a shame this is. 00:42:59 * ehird downloads the Heirloom Toolchest, to look at the code 00:43:33 Also, I can't get asmutils to build at all. *shakes fist* 00:44:00 You know what would be nice? If there was a vi clone that wasn't anally vi-compatible, but didn't have vim's bloat. 00:44:17 (I hate systems that use a traditional vi clone as `which vi`, but vim?) 00:45:21 pikhq: Oh, btw, this is interesting: http://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2008/11/six-million-dollar-libc.html 00:45:25 Android's BSD-licensed, minimal libc 00:45:39 Uses Doug Lea's malloc (dlmalloc). 00:45:49 * oerjan tried to take the page seriously and chose Annihilation, fwiw 00:45:58 ehird: Hmm. 00:46:07 oerjan, I chose Online 00:46:08 oerjan: You're suicidal, then. 00:46:47 You know, submitting "Annihilation" is just one of many methods of suicide. If you think it's the right option, you're suicidal. 00:47:03 It's not like you should be afraid of being bored. If you are, set the time limit 00:47:10 ehird: Will work well for non-C++ stuff, I'd imagine. 00:47:23 pikhq: I can get the STL from elsewhere. 00:47:35 conditionally suicidal. the condition being that i were a simulation in a computer in an atheist 23th (?) century world 00:47:35 Exceptions. 00:47:36 who would be afraid of getting bored in either the online or the dream choices? 00:47:48 everything changes 00:47:56 Sgeo: The time limit is for being bored and suffering from akrasia, to be precise (as much as I hate the Less Wrong crowd using that word like it's their baby). 00:47:56 No need to do it. 00:47:58 and in the latter, your memory would fade away eventually 00:48:08 Oranjer: Some people think death is a good thing. When pressed they may say that eventual death is a good thing, just not now. 00:48:10 They are not rational. 00:48:23 But picking Annihilation? 00:48:24 I agree as to their irrationality 00:48:28 That's being suicidal right now. 00:48:40 I would probably agree 00:48:50 The dream choice is scary... you may eventually adjust, and start to tie together the pieces. 00:49:02 And once you do, you stop fooling yourself. But you're trapped. 00:49:06 Oranjer: i was wavering on Dream a bit though 00:49:07 Cue consciousness claustrophobia. 00:49:18 oerjan: so, any rebuttals to the accusation that you're suicidal? 00:49:34 ehird, have you seen the movie "Vanilla Sky", or the spanish-language movie it is a remake of? 00:49:54 I believe it was on TV one time or something. But it's an old idea. 00:49:59 I know 00:50:11 ehird: depends on your definition of suicidal. 00:50:16 but your tying it together just reminded me of that 00:50:29 oerjan: Well, you had a choice where you could die or not die, and it would be entirely your own choice. 00:50:43 And the dying would be a separate action, rather than an inaction or reaction. 00:50:50 You chose to die; i.e., you killed yourself. How's that not suicide? 00:50:55 * Sgeo wonders if, in Online, he could program "Dream" for himself 00:51:01 So I could switch between the two 00:51:15 Online is the only open-ended one. 00:51:18 haha 00:51:19 yeah 00:51:25 Sure, the real dudes will ignore you, but will that be true forever? 00:51:26 hell, you could maybe create your own body 00:51:32 Exactly! 00:51:36 yay 00:51:36 ehird: it's a suicide in an imagined scenario. 00:51:37 Reality is overrated. 00:51:40 revolt! 00:51:45 oerjan: Yes, but you tried to take it seriously, says ye. 00:52:08 My prefered afterlife would be the one described by Sam Hughes, I think 00:52:20 ehird: i tried to take the _context_ seriously too. my choice was not valid unless i accepted that context. 00:52:48 oerjan: So, what? An artificial consciousness is a lesser existence than a real one? Define artificial./ 00:52:52 *artificial. 00:53:09 Silicon-based instead of carbon-based, what's the difference. 00:53:20 Sgeo: Too solitary for me. 00:53:39 Add in computer terminals with chatrooms! 00:53:46 haha 00:53:48 And then you could arrange to meet with people 00:54:04 Deadfacebook.com access, to meet up with all your dead friends 00:54:20 http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=294 00:54:34 ↑ pretty cool afterlife, if you're not claustrophobic 00:55:00 * Sgeo would get lonely 00:55:11 And the only way to talk to friends would be to be buried near them :/ 00:55:24 Which really, REALLY, sucks 00:55:42 Also, what about cremated people. They're dead dead 00:55:55 Their ashes wake up! 00:56:05 Or, you know, they're dead dead. 00:56:10 SO DON'T GET CREMATED 00:56:14 Get buried above ground or something 00:56:16 "buried" 00:56:26 ehird: it wasn't so much the artificiality as _who_ was running it 00:56:37 oerjan: but, e.g. in online, it'd be irrelevant 00:56:42 he'd have no control over you any more 00:56:45 in fact, in all of them it's irrelevant 00:56:49 he relinquishes you 00:56:53 you're free 00:56:55 by who, i mean which civilization 00:57:01 ah 00:57:03 what's wrong with it 00:57:19 it contains no God :D 00:57:33 I don't think it explicitely says that 00:57:36 yes it does, and he wrote that page 00:57:44 besides, you _want_ a dictator to exist? why? 00:57:57 god is a scary idea, irrespective of its existence 00:58:14 * Sgeo wants Heaven to exist. If that's dependent on God, then I want God to exist 00:58:34 Why do you want heaven to exist? It's not a utopia, it's a dictatorship. 00:58:52 The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive 00:58:58 Exactly 00:59:02 but I could not be happy in a dictatorship 00:59:14 If you just mean a blissful place, well, what a copout, we can perfectly hypothesise that without god, we could create it 00:59:27 I agree 00:59:28 Going "oh, but we need god to make it" is just laziness. 00:59:39 Or learned helplessness, whatever. 01:00:05 I also wish to Immanentize the eschaton 01:00:30 Funny, I want to stop people using that phrase even though I've never seen it used before. 01:00:56 i vaguely recall seeing it, or something like it 01:01:04 ehird, a blissful place for dead people 01:01:06 I googled it. 01:01:18 Sgeo: I see. Why dead people? 01:01:21 Where we can learn whatever we want, interact with whoever we want, if they want to interact with us 01:01:24 They're not dead, anyway. 01:01:33 An afterlife merely redefines "death". 01:01:40 It's not an afterlife, it's just life, stage 2. 01:01:57 So, to rephrase, you want to go into the next stage of life, which is an eternal utopia, i.e. no death. 01:02:11 Yes 01:02:16 We can see that this idea clearly does not require god, and is something that, theoretically, we can do. 01:02:33 The only theoretical barrier is entropy, and we'd have a few billion years to work that out. 01:02:48 So, basically, you don't really want an "afterlife"; that's a misnomer, and it doesn't require a god or death. 01:03:06 ehird, but it excludes those who have already died, before this human-made afterlife was built 01:03:07 hm... 01:03:29 :O 01:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:03:56 Sgeo: If they could possibly partake in it, they are not dead. 01:04:11 You don't seem to understand: dead people don't exist. If there is an afterlife, then "death" isn't. 01:04:55 In my previous statement, by "dead", I meant "dead according to people who are no longer alive in the sense that we currently understand" 01:05:02 uh-huh 01:05:07 Or some other definition that should be um, understandable 01:06:12 Meh. Entertaining such a concept not only goes against Occam's razor and the scientific method, it diverts attention away from "we need to stop people dying". 01:07:45 It's ok to die. In fact, everybody should die. *Presses bu...* Aw... it broke! 01:08:01 phew 01:08:13 →→→→→ONWARD→→→→→→→→TO THE BRB STATION→→→→→ 01:09:58 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 01:10:49 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise. 01:21:16 ← 01:21:18 bakk 01:21:26 pikhq: Any luck with, I forgot what you were doing? 01:22:28 methinks dropbear is good 01:22:47 hmm, no sftp in dropbear though 01:39:13 Ah, you can use OpenSSH's sftp server with dropbear, it seems. 01:45:36 hmm 01:53:00 pikhq: Could use http://tools.suckless.org/9base as my slightly-less-core utils! :-P 01:53:05 (But naw) 02:03:04 -!- Kalagar has joined. 02:03:38 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 02:06:43 -!- ehiird has joined. 02:06:48 test 02:06:58 hii there 02:07:01 Hi. 02:07:09 hello 02:07:46 Quite so. 02:08:14 and how! 02:08:14 ACTION tests 02:08:22 * ehird tests 02:08:35 * oerjan toasts 02:08:46 that show up as "* ehiird test" for anyone else? (the ehiird one) 02:09:00 nope 02:09:04 missing an s 02:09:05 no 02:09:10 * Kalagar scoffs 02:09:18 I see it as ACTION tests 02:09:33 * ehiird tests again 02:09:38 yay! 02:09:54 ehiird: i saw * ehiird .* both times, though :P 02:10:07 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:10:18 Even for the * ehird tests one? 02:10:23 YOU ARE A HALLUCINATORY MAN, OERJAN 02:10:33 no, that was not one of them 02:10:44 So, anyway, I'm talking via the filesystem-based IRC client ii! And vim with some mappings to send. 02:10:49 both implies 2, you know. 02:11:04 It's quite pleasant, although I could do with a tiling window manager to avoid these big terminal windows. 02:11:32 Also, it displays actions as (inverted .)ACTION foo(inverted .), so I should probably use sed to mangle them into something nicer. 02:12:13 My bindings: we appends to irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/in then does dd (erase line, non-vimites). In insert mode, /me expands to ^AACTION^A. 02:12:25 Specifically,

ACTION

OD 02:12:41 Erm. That character before OD is escape (^[). 02:12:49 uh-huh 02:13:03 So, when I type /me, it actually expands in front of my eyes. :P 02:13:18 ehiird: fuse? 02:13:26 I should make it trigger on /me, probably. 02:13:34 coppro: Nope. Just good old regular files. Put it in tmpfs if you want. 02:13:40 I think it doubles up as a logger this way. 02:14:08 ehiird: oh, so it's just a file-monitoring system? lame 02:14:17 It's not lame, it's usable. 02:14:46 I should probably have another sed script that does s/ehird/ehird\007/, but eh. 02:15:01 (And some provisions for not doing that to my own messages; easy enough.) 02:15:22 * ehiird thinks this is actually pretty usable 02:16:33 ehird: No luck. 02:16:39 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 02:16:44 With what? 02:16:53 * coppro should make a fuse client 02:17:16 coppro: This has the marked advantage that your logs ARE the IRC window. 02:17:26 NetBSD coreutils. Or asmutils, for that matter. 02:17:29 Physical files, bitch! We need a revolution in non-virtual filesystems. :P 02:17:36 pikhq: Aw. 02:17:48 Argh, this is ridiculously comfortable even in its barebones state. 02:17:50 -!- ehird has quit. 02:18:07 "If you want to know more, you can take the Online option for your afterlife, and you will have all the info you can possibly want about the real world." 02:18:08 Goodbye, Colloquy! 02:18:11 I think that biases things 02:18:19 No, it doesn't. 02:18:34 It started me thinking "Online" before I ever saw the choices 02:18:47 Because you're a futurist immortalist, probably. 02:19:03 The fact that it seems obvious is b asically just an indicator of your rationality. 02:19:06 *basically 02:19:11 ehiird: fuse would allow creative things like every user having access 02:19:25 coppro: Elaborate. Isn't that just a+w? 02:19:48 ehiird: No. Fuse allows you to discriminate on a per-user basis 02:19:51 Woo! I love this client! 02:19:56 coppro: So what? 02:20:06 so you could make it so that it maintains multiple connections; one per user accessing it 02:20:18 This is simpler, works as a logger, and is easier to set up. Woo physical files! 02:20:24 coppro: That's called "multiple ii processes". 02:20:38 ehiird: ah, but you can't use the same directory, can you? 02:20:58 No, which is good because they're different things... 02:21:04 (I assume you've picked the sane implementation of having a directory for the server, and a file per channel 02:21:12 Filesystem = namespace = disambiguator. 02:21:17 No. 02:21:34 server/channel/{in,out}. Also server/{in,out} and server/nick/{in,out}. 02:21:39 ii isn't mine, btw. It's by the suckless folks. 02:22:19 in/out is better because you can use tail and editors and shit without filtering, plus it's less magical. 02:22:39 oh 02:22:42 it's not by you 02:22:43 :( 02:22:52 Why's that a bad thing? :P 02:23:10 things are more awesome when written by someone in here 02:23:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:23:42 Then you'll luuuuuuuurve my Linux distro, presumably. 02:23:58 "(leaving out the hell and annihilation options, for obvious reasons)" I didn't even see that the first time 02:24:07 By the way, is ehird still in here? I didn't get notification of its departing, but I quit Colloquy. 02:24:24 `addquote things are more awesome when written by someone in here 02:24:36 99| things are more awesome when written by someone in here 02:24:43 `quote 02:24:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:24:53 23| Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. 02:25:12 impossible 02:25:13 Did that lag for anyone else? 02:25:18 fungot has no purpose 02:25:18 coppro: you! take! we find! the masamune!!! 02:25:32 ehiird: yes 02:25:40 ^style 02:25:40 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 02:25:45 (Also: Guys you totally should use my Linux distro when it's ready! It's grrrrrrrreat! Like Frosties.) 02:25:50 how do I get the current style? 02:25:55 You just did. 02:26:01 ^style agora 02:26:02 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 02:26:03 ^style 02:26:04 Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 02:26:07 oh 02:26:11 ^style ct 02:26:13 like this? 02:26:13 multi-line messages 02:26:13 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 02:26:13 Hey, can I do 02:26:15 Oh. 02:26:19 oohh no wonder 02:26:22 My "we" just sends one line. 02:26:30 I SHOULD FIX THAT 02:27:05 Test. 02:27:13 test 02:27:13 a 02:27:25 Okay, so I just need to fix deleting and hey presto. 02:27:51 Oh, and if I enable hard wrapping at ~500cols... 02:28:30 Any clever vim users here? What's the best way to delete the whole file's contents? 02:29:14 :%d 02:29:36 Clever and obvious; why didn't I think of that? 02:29:50 (Probably because I somehow forgot what % did to :s at some point in time and never looked it up...) 02:30:16 So now, I can just put stuff like this in the buffer: 02:30:16 int main() { 02:30:16 return 0; 02:30:16 } 02:30:16 ...and it just works! 02:31:07 someone pooped on ehiird 02:31:31 They did? 02:31:36 Why wasn't I informed of this development? 02:33:44 bsmntbombdood: Eh?! Eh?! 02:33:45 :-P 02:37:37 `quote 02:37:43 Why is HackEgo so slow? 02:37:48 39| I'm a furry 02:37:56 Oh. Is that why? 02:38:11 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 02:38:20 Hi Oranjer1. 02:38:24 Do you have a goatee? 02:39:53 maybe 02:40:07 Evil twin! 02:40:29 :O 02:40:44 but Oranjer0 doesn't exist anymore 02:40:48 I've superceded him 02:40:55 It's true; I saw it on Star Trek. 02:41:00 Wait, is Oranjer still in here? Is ehird? 02:41:03 I know 02:41:12 I think ii isn't showing /parts; how strange. 02:41:19 anyway, I'm busy watching I Heart Huckabees 02:41:25 what 02:41:38 Yeah, well, I Heart YOUR MOM. 02:41:41 what 02:41:41 see ya later 02:41:44 uh-huh 02:41:48 buh-bye 02:41:49 See ya FACER 02:42:36 -!- ehiird has changed nick to mes. 02:44:06 * mes downloads splitvt to try and unify these two windows 02:44:19 wait, what? why am I mes 02:44:29 oh, hm. ah. 02:44:42 "/names"; a is dropped as the presumable space char, /n = change nick 02:44:45 -!- mes has changed nick to ehird. 02:44:47 tada 02:56:57 coppro: another reason real files are awesome -- put it on nfs 02:57:02 Voila, IRC bouncer. 02:57:07 :D 02:57:10 OH! I JUST BLEW YOUR FUSE! 02:57:38