00:01:07 Oh, wow, that was unexpected: I just copied the old triple-head xorg.conf in place, and now it works. Some later xorg (or kernel) update must've fixed whatever was wrong with it. 00:03:08 :( 00:11:31 Don't worry, the window manager (Awesome) is broken anyway. (They use a Lua script as the config file, and change pretty much all interfaces for every minor revision; I just upgraded from 3.3 to 3.4 and everything's broken.) 00:17:13 what's awesome like 00:17:14 ? 00:18:13 Well, it's a tiling wm, with the whole "tags" thing. I could even like it if they'd selected something else than Lua for their scripting lanugage. 00:19:03 -!- ehird has joined. 00:20:31 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 00:21:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:22:04 Is Pyglet any good? 00:22:40 12:36:13 * AnMaster wonders how sane it is to burn an iso file when the iso file is on an nfs mount 00:22:47 100 Mb internet is faster than a CD. 00:22:57 yeah 00:23:05 Sgeo: it is, I recall, unmaintained. 00:23:09 ehird, dumb question but what does "roger the googly" mean?? 00:23:14 (say it mentioned on Family Guy) 00:23:16 *saw 00:23:25 BLEEP THIS KEYBOARD! ;-) 00:23:34 fizzie, xmonad? 00:23:34 Rugxulo: I don't know? Family Guy is retarded 00:23:42 yes ... yes it is 00:23:54 and MS won't sponsor it for Win7 anymore (awww, too bad) 00:24:04 AnMaster: I did think about that; it was disrecommended by someone, though. 00:24:16 fizzie, on what grounds? 00:24:31 o.O Why is 0, 0 the LOWER left corner? In graphics stuff, isn't it typically the upper left? 00:24:34 I don't remember at all, just that someone voiced a negative opinion. 00:24:46 Sgeo, where? 00:24:59 http://www.pyglet.org/doc/programming_guide/image_viewer.html "The arguments (0, 0) tell pyglet to draw the image at pixel coordinates 0, 0 in the window (the lower-left corner)." 00:25:05 Sgeo, and in math you generally have positive y up 00:25:08 Lower-left isn't so terribly uncommon either. 00:25:25 It does feel a bit more "mathy", yes. 00:25:26 didn't OS/2 use something odd like the top right?? 00:25:32 fizzie: dwm is cool innit 00:25:34 fizzie, I think we should use polar coordinates 00:25:43 TGA uses 0,0 = bottom right 00:25:54 ehird, nice 00:26:04 although 00:26:05 in the header 00:26:07 you can set a field 00:26:08 still, I want an image format with polar coordinates 00:26:10 to flip the coordinates 00:26:12 I'm not joking 00:26:19 YAY OPTION CREEP 00:26:38 ehird, Hm what is tga meant for? Maybe for "print this while it is being sent"? 00:26:44 thus maybe making sense or such 00:26:46 just a guess 00:26:55 TGA is just for everything. 00:26:56 Assuming you don't need compression. 00:27:00 brb, trying to switch to wifi 00:27:03 mhm 00:27:18 ehird, must be on laptop 00:27:24 s/,/ 00:30:16 * Rugxulo is surprised ehird doesn't like Family Guy, seems right up his alley 00:32:38 night ⇲ 00:36:12 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 00:36:15 -!- Rugxulo has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"). 00:48:41 -!- ehird has joined. 00:48:52 13:38:56 wow he uses ion? XD 00:48:52 There's nothing wrong with ion, the author just has a bad personality 00:48:52 14:13:53 Isn't it against Ion's philosophy to do multihead, though? I mean, the reason given for not supporting Xinerama is "I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement"; admittedly it supports plain X multihead, but I don't see how that would make it any more ecological. 00:48:56 He's said on the mailinglists just to use regular multihead, i.e. he's not going to expend *effort* making it work for multiple monitor users 00:48:59 15:50:29 fork ion? 00:49:01 15:51:40 someone should. It would annoy the hell out of the author 00:49:03 No it wouldn't? 00:49:05 15:57:43 bsmntbombdood_, switch WM seriously. 00:49:07 Why? 00:49:09 15:58:21 fizzie, ion wasn't the first tiling one was it? 00:49:11 No; pwm, ion's successor, was the first tabbing WM 00:49:13 15:59:20 dwm or such I would guess 00:49:15 dwm is recent. 00:49:17 (There are no real alternatives to ion if you want tabbing+tiling) 00:49:19 Also, stop talking about ion 00:49:21 Stupid being disconnected while logreading 00:49:23 Also stupid #esoteric being stuck on boring topics for ages 00:49:27 1.48 Mb/s download, 87 ms ping. Wi-Fi to router/modem downstairs, with something like 3 Mb/s theoretical maximum. 00:49:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 00:49:31 Not bad. 01:04:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:09:29 "Sorry, the GeoCities web site you were trying to reach is no longer available." 01:09:32 It is over. 01:09:42 RIP GeoCities 1994—2009 01:10:03 Or should I say Beverly Hills Internet? 01:13:13 I wonder how to mount a loopback ext2 on OS X. 01:16:20 Yesterday, I felt nostalgia for a website. It wasn't Geocities 01:16:28 That's nice, Sgeo 01:16:32 That's nice. 01:16:59 It's just, I'm usually easily affected by nostalgia, and you'd think that I'd feel nostalgia for Geocities 01:17:10 That's nice, Sgeo 01:17:17 ... 01:17:40 I feel nostalgic for GeoCities 01:17:57 I did a Google search today, and the fourth result, and the first useful one for me, was actually a Geocities website 01:18:16 Gone now. 01:18:19 yes 01:18:24 looks like I found it just in time 01:18:36 I'd say boycott Yahoo!, but nobody uses Yahoo!. 01:18:37 What was it, if I may ask? 01:18:40 Apart from you, for emergency email. 01:18:44 Sgeo: a massive list of prime numbers 01:18:48 (Seriously; nobody uses Yahoo!!) 01:18:49 ehird: also, I use Yahoo! 01:18:54 (Also, FUCK THEIR NAME) 01:19:00 ais523: why? it gives crappy resultsst 01:19:02 *results 01:19:04 for a non-work mail account 01:19:06 not for searching 01:19:11 [00:18] ehird: Apart from you, for emergency email. 01:19:14 the agora one, yes? 01:19:15 oh, missed that 01:19:16 * Sgeo likes girls. Not names 01:19:17 and yes 01:19:23 that's a pretty minnor use 01:19:24 *minor 01:19:29 because the SMTP server on bham.ac.uk keeps going down 01:19:37 "Sgeo likes girls. Not names" 01:19:37 what does that 01:19:37 even 01:19:37 mean 01:19:43 making it rather hard to send emails, and in nomic timing is often important 01:19:45 it doesn't mean a thiing 01:19:46 (Also, FUCK THEIR NAME) 01:19:47 *thing 01:19:57 Sgeo: oh. now if only it was funny! 01:21:11 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:23:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:24:36 Damn it 01:28:27 "Simple generic tabbed fronted to xembed aware applications, originally designed for surf but also usable with many other application, i.e. uzbl, urxvt and xterm" 01:28:30 I love you, suckless 01:29:33 841 lines; quite big for suckless 01:29:46 .SH NAME 01:29:46 tabbed \- simple webkit-based browser 01:29:54 Whoopsy. 01:31:28 suckless for success 01:32:19 * ehird reports 01:35:30 -!- coppro has joined. 01:35:43 reporting a bug to suckless was refreshingly simple. 01:36:06 send to dev+subscribe-nomail@suckless.org, reply to its response. email dev@suckless.org 01:36:10 forget about it 01:36:10 done 01:37:03 what was the bug? 01:37:19 .SH NAME 01:37:19 tabbed \- simple webkit-based browser 01:37:23 obviously copied from the surf manpage 01:37:47 (that quote from the manpage was my entire message body :P) 01:38:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:40:09 hmm, t'isn't working; wonder what i broke 01:40:12 Hmm. What use could I get out of tabbed, anyways? 01:40:27 pikhq: using a non-tabbed browser; tabs are a window management function 01:40:28 (I specifically, not "what does it do") 01:40:42 e.g. http://surf.suckless.org/ 01:40:44 (webkit based) 01:40:52 "It is able to display websites and follow links." 01:41:04 ehird: Tempting. I am always on the lookout for less-sucky web browsers. 01:41:21 surf is adding one of those mouseless-link-clicky things sometime I belieeve, if that's yoru thing 01:41:34 http://man.suckless.org/surf/1/surf pretty much lists everything it can do 01:41:41 That's one of the things I do with Conkeror, yes. 01:41:44 admittedly, webkit/gtk handles basically the entire page 01:42:24 http://surf.suckless.org/patches/history history is an optional patch :-D 01:42:26 *patch :-D 01:42:32 cat ~/.surf/history | sort -r | uniq | dmenu -l 10 -b -i | xprop -id `cat ~/.surf/id` -f _SURF_URI 8s -set _SURF_URI 01:42:35 nice history viewer 01:42:49 It appears to be sufficiently non-suck that I may give it a shot in the near future. 01:42:49 would be better with dmenu-vertical, though 01:43:25 I love the suckless guys 01:44:24 Hmm. Wmii is using 9p? 01:44:31 That's kinda sweet. 01:44:34 Yes. 01:44:40 The suckless guys are huge plan9 fans. 01:44:44 wmii depends on plan9port, iirc 01:44:46 or, wait, just the 9base subset 01:44:48 but whatever 01:45:10 werc, their website tool, is written entirely in rc (plan9 shell) 01:45:29 pikhq: dwm is a bit more suckless than wmii, though, i'd say 01:45:53 of course there can be a thing as too much simplicity, but as you use ratpoison i somehow i doubt that applies 01:46:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:46:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:46:28 ehird: I usually have two X windows open at a time. 01:46:37 For this purpose, Ratpoison is almost *overkill*. :P 01:46:49 ratpoison makes it a real bitch to look at more than one thing at once 01:46:59 like, even to have more than one terminal is a pain, imo 01:47:09 dwm things are nice because open windows automatically fit and you can hide them if you want 01:48:01 my current plan is to build myself a little linux around a tiny, moduleless kernel + static binaries only and dwm... 01:48:14 funny how only that and OS X seem to be usable; two extremes 01:48:28 Why the annoyance at dynamic linking? 01:48:54 a few things 01:49:05 (the idea, not the implementation; UNIXy things make it hard to actually *build* dynamic libraries) 01:49:08 http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ is the most succinct explanation 01:49:23 and, to add on to that post: They're just simpler. 01:49:27 DJGPP deliberately doesn't have shared objects 01:49:33 Well, they certainly are simpler. 01:49:45 http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ gives the non-simplicity nazi reasons :P 01:50:45 It'd be kinda nice if Linux distros weren't so crazy about breaking ABIs. 01:50:54 oh, and a.out is simpler than ELF 01:51:05 and if you're not using dynamic linking, ELF isn't attractive 01:51:18 Or at least were smarter *about* the treatment of breaking ABIs. 01:51:28 simplicity nazi reasons are justified, to be honest; with no kernel modules, static binaries and a.out, I can maintain a distro without pain 01:51:45 be nice if someone else did it, of course, but http://stali.suckless.org/ misses the mark ever so slightly :( 01:51:54 although they put the kernel in /bin/kernel, which is totally my idea, dammit 01:52:05 ehird: Heck, with no kernel modules, static binaries, and a.out, distro maintainance is little more than compiling things when you upgrade. 01:52:21 pikhq: add one to that list — a really simple init system 01:52:31 no sysv init, not even bsd init (too opaque file), just two init scripts that call others 01:52:41 to activate one, make a binary and add it to the main init file 01:52:44 to deactivate, comment out the line 01:52:49 A really simple init system is... Not someething I blame you for. 01:52:53 main init files = shell scripts 01:52:58 pikhq: tell me about it 01:53:05 even adding a simple thing to debian's init.d makes me cry 01:53:35 Make it a couple scripts that run things in /etc/init.d and /etc/halt.d or some such. 01:53:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:53:53 pikhq: just /etc/init.start and /etc/init.stop, I think 01:53:56 no need for tons of runlevels 01:54:02 /etc/init.start would look something like: 01:54:05 #!/bin/sh 01:54:09 blah blah blah 01:54:16 /etc/init/networking/start 01:54:23 /etc/init/blahcrapservice/start 01:54:34 in fact, forget the directories; /etc/init/networking.start 01:54:38 If you really, truly want it to listen to init signals, make an absurdly simple inittab. 01:54:59 eh, does it really matter? 01:55:04 i don't think so 01:55:09 ehird: I was more thinking: for i in /etc/init.d/*; $i ; done 01:55:18 pikhq: ah, but what about disabling things temporarily? 01:55:20 all the other systems let you do that 01:55:34 also, passing arguments 01:55:37 for instance, network configuration 01:55:43 well 01:55:44 more like: 01:55:49 starting two web servers 01:56:16 for i in /etc/init.d/*; if [ -x $i];then $i;fi ; done 01:56:21 /etc/init/httpd.start -c /etc/httpd/site1.conf 01:56:21 /etc/init/httpd.start -c /etc/httpd/site2.conf 01:56:24 Eh. Fair enough. 01:56:44 anyway, easy to switch between either. 01:57:00 one idea for a package management system: 01:57:26 /pkg/kernel/2.6.31.5 is a directory full of directories and symlinks 01:57:35 like, it'd have 01:57:35 bin a directory 01:57:40 inside, a symlink "kernel" to /bin/kernel 01:57:48 and, just making something up 01:57:57 a dir usr/, a dir share/, a symlink kernel to directory /usr/share/kerneel 01:58:07 so basically, removing a package = rm -r it while following symlinks 01:58:24 and it means you can easily view the files in a package, etc 01:59:03 that's just an idea, though 01:59:13 i mean 01:59:15 equivalently is a list of files 01:59:22 and directories 01:59:22 to remove 01:59:33 /bin/kernel 01:59:34 /usr/share/kernel 01:59:35 sort of thing 01:59:38 so i guess that idea is silly, really 02:00:04 hey, that's cool; with a list of files, updating a package is just rsyncing the relevant files 02:00:52 that + install/uninstall scripts for things like init system entries = package management system 02:01:42 what's ehird trying to do? this conversation is tl 02:01:44 kinda upsetting when you come up with such a simple solution, knowing the complexity of all the others 02:01:58 coppro: the most recentt thing = package management system, aggressively simplified 02:01:59 *recent 02:02:05 ah 02:02:51 the supertopic = making an incredibly minimalist linux distribution with tiny kernel without modules + static binaries only (and a.out) + init system solely consists of two shell scripts that call other shell scripts and binaries + package management system is so light as to barely exist 02:04:17 oh, i just realised an issue 02:04:30 if i need to, for whatever reason, use emacs, even for a millisecond... i'd have to create a package for it 02:04:33 i'd be a maintainer of emacs! 02:04:40 :'( 02:05:33 ok, I get you so far - how do you plan to deal with configuration of packages and/or, more importantly, changed configurations? 02:06:14 configuration of packages is handled by /etc files. maybe if there is a justification, i will write scripts to handle it, but it'd basically be the same as e.g. gnome's configurators; not needed in the package management system 02:06:41 i don't see any issue with this; do you? and, in that context, what would need to be done about changed configurations? I'm not sure what you mean by that term 02:08:01 coppro: additionally, i don't see you dealing with configuration of your mom. 02:08:47 WELL THAT PUT YOUR RESPONSES OUT OF BUSINESS. so to speak. 02:09:00 ehird: well, look at what debian does - it installs a default config in /etc - but some packages offer customization options when installed. This normally isn't particularly necessary, but some packages need configuration options to be useful 02:09:12 ehird: and if the user changes the configuration, you need a merge system for upgrades 02:10:32 (a) sure, just handle that in whatever global configuration system you desire, be it vi /etc/blah or gnome-whatever — just either have sane defaults if possible (or omit options entirely if it won't work without; just have a commented out template) and, if you must, alert the user in the install script 02:10:32 (b) good point, but is this really a big deal? you could copy the default config somewhere, but generally the user's current config will work 02:10:39 (and notify the user of its location) 02:10:58 if there are backwards incompatible changes, yeah, i guess you should say "HEY USER FIX THIS", but I don't think the existing merge systems can handle syntax changes or whatever 02:13:23 coppro: i just don't see merge systems as handling a problem that happens often, and when they do handle it it's either trivial or dissatisfactory 02:13:28 i may be totally wrong 02:13:54 ehird: debian does a prompt like a version control system in case of a merge conflict 02:14:00 Yes, I know that. 02:14:07 Does that address anything I say? If so, what part? 02:14:35 and when they do handle it it's either trivial or dissatisfactory 02:14:47 That was a summary of: 02:14:54 [01:10] ehird: (a) sure, just handle that in whatever global configuration system you desire, be it vi /etc/blah or gnome-whatever — just either have sane defaults if possible (or omit options entirely if it won't work without; just have a commented out template) and, if you must, alert the user in the install script 02:14:54 [01:10] ehird: (b) good point, but is this really a big deal? you could copy the default config somewhere, but generally the user's current config will work 02:14:54 [01:10] ehird: (and notify the user of its location) 02:14:54 [01:10] ehird: if there are backwards incompatible changes, yeah, i guess you should say "HEY USER FIX THIS", but I don't think the existing merge systems can handle syntax changes or whatever 02:15:13 the last line is the dissatisfactory part, (b) is the trivial part, and (b) is also the rarely-happens part 02:16:45 but, really, i'd love for you to prove me wrong; then i can stop being pissed off that everyone else is overcomplicating things so much 02:20:34 coppro: you aren't proving me wrong :( 02:20:49 ehird: I'm too busy 02:21:05 THAT'S WHAT THEY A;; SAY 02:21:07 *ALL 02:26:14 anyhows, yeah. 02:26:40 should be simple, easy, fun, usable. ha ha ha as if 02:37:10 BOOM 02:38:16 Gentoo has a script for merging any changes in config files. 02:38:32 If you don't execute the script, it leaves your config files the hell alone. 02:38:34 any? lemme guess, a generic merge tool 02:38:37 yeah 02:38:43 how often is script execution done? 02:38:49 i mean, on average 02:39:13 I get the feeling that generally, merging is unneeded, and when it's needed it's either really easy to do or a complete renovation, which can't be automated without a lot of pain 02:39:14 I do it every time I upgrade, but that's just me being rather careful & paranoid. How often do most do that? 02:39:20 Uh... Very, very rarely. 02:39:56 rightyhothen, won't be needing none of that 02:40:10 Generally when the build hands out a message saying "The format of the config file changed in X manner. Go over your old configuration and make it work." 02:40:27 hmm, it's annoying that I can only really optimise for i686 02:40:38 because everything above that in the kernel is cpu-specific, right? 02:40:44 i.e., not just a "anything not ancient, goddamn" 02:44:59 btw: wired ~1.5 Mb/s internet with ~85 ms latency kicks the shit out of 3G. 02:45:28 especially since it isn't 15 £ / 1 fucking GiB 02:45:50 (currency is too an SI unit) 02:46:26 BTW, if you're going to be doing the static Linux thing, ehird -- glibc sucks ass for static linking. 02:46:37 (namely, it's incapable of doing it properly) 02:46:37 you think i'd use glibc? 02:46:46 MAYBE I'll use eglibc for programs that absolutely demand it 02:47:03 Eglibc at least fixes the whole "can't do static linking" bit. 02:47:06 but glibc? no chance in hell 02:47:20 this monitor is large 02:47:20 heck, I'm hoping I can just use gcc for the kernel 02:47:30 and compile the rest with clang 02:47:34 (wonder if clang has baggage if you do static linking) 02:47:48 bsmntbombdood: 24" isn't large. 02:47:53 lol out of context etc 02:48:01 Well, I hope you don't have a burning itch for something written in C++. 02:48:13 (fortunately, not much that I don't think you'd be using) 02:48:13 who cares how many inches 02:48:16 pikhq: clang does "semi-okay" c++ i believe 02:48:20 1920*1200 is large 02:48:29 bsmntbombdood: That's the opposite of what she said! 02:48:34 pikhq: webkit 02:48:36 ehird: Yeah, but I seem to recall that it breaks at least some things. 02:48:41 webkit is pretty important. 02:48:47 On the other hand, clang has built Webkit and KDE, so... 02:49:02 Guess those are the two *largest* things anyone will be building that use C++. 02:49:05 apparently clang can't compile itself 02:49:07 heh 02:49:10 circa 2009-04 02:49:26 pikhq: latest gcc doesn't do a.out, yeah? 02:49:38 They very recently stopped supporting it, yeah. 02:49:48 wonderful, frozen in time 02:49:49 not 02:49:54 And I'm not sure what LLVM can do. 02:49:57 oh well, I'm sure the kernel will compile with it for years 02:50:11 You can still build the kernel with GCC 2, I think. 02:50:17 exactly 02:50:25 I know they still *support* GCC 3... 02:50:57 pikhq: I was thinking "cool, I can use google's gold linker for speed" but then I realised (a) gold is ELF-only (b) static linking takes like a millisecond 02:51:16 llvm uses the platform's linker, I think 02:51:20 so a.out should be no trouble 02:51:38 The gold linker supports plugins. 02:51:45 Such as using LLVM for link-time optimization. 02:51:51 heh, cute 02:52:07 pikhq: one issue is coreutils type things 02:52:16 So, just add -emit-llvm to your CFLAGS for everything, and you get a lot of link-time optimization. 02:52:21 not gonna use gnu coreutils, don't think the bsd ones will work out of the box, and busybox is way too minimal 02:52:26 everything else is probably niche and unmaintaine 02:52:32 s/$/d/ 02:52:39 The NetBSD ones almost certainly will work out of the box. 02:52:39 ehird: I believe clang can do the kernel too; not sure 02:52:47 i think porting a bsd's and going from there will be the best idea 02:52:55 (the BSD coreutils are good, but not perfect) 02:52:59 pikhq: interesting 02:53:13 coppro: I find that *highly* unlikely; it can compile FreeBSD, though 02:53:18 for i386 02:53:23 and even that isn't as stable as gcc 02:53:27 and this is due to work, iirc 02:53:32 ehird: clang's C support is very good 02:53:38 I think the clang guys are trying to make the kernel work with it 02:53:39 Linux is very hard to compile; they are very, very GCC-specific. 02:53:42 Summary: [META] Compiling the Linux kernel with clang 02:53:42 Product: new-bugs 02:53:46 from April. 02:53:51 pikhq: exactly 02:53:59 linux is like 40% fucked up gcc bullshit 02:54:10 http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=4068 02:54:14 Created an attachment (id=3486) [details] 02:54:14 patch to Linux kernel to build with clang 02:54:18 doesn't boot yet though 02:54:21 Clang supports commonly used GCC stuff. 02:54:23 and that was only last month 02:54:25 and requires patching 02:54:29 Linux's GCC stuff is unique to GCC. 02:54:45 pikhq: on the other hand, 02:54:46 http://llvm.org/bugs/attachment.cgi?id=2897 02:54:50 http://llvm.org/bugs/attachment.cgi?id=3486 02:54:52 from the looks of that, they're close 02:54:56 is apparently all you need for it to build with clang 02:54:58 but booting isn't happening yet 02:55:05 I can't imagine they'd be very far by now. 02:55:06 coppro: anyway, it won't be stable for a while, I'm almost sure 02:55:09 pikhq: it BUILDS 02:55:11 with two patches 02:55:12 small ones 02:55:15 Clang has shaped up to be a very good compiler. 02:55:16 i linked them 02:55:19 ehird: they just issued a production-ready release 02:55:19 oh 02:55:21 very far from the end, ic 02:55:25 coppro: of what 02:55:27 clang? 02:55:28 clang 02:55:38 so what, it still can't compile a booting kernel 02:55:39 not for C++, obvoiusly, but for C and Obj-C 02:55:43 and production ready for X != production ready for kernel 02:55:50 also, webkit and kde can build with it, apparently 02:55:53 * pikhq wonders if llvm-gcc can build a functioning kernel 02:55:56 you just said it wouldn't be stable, and I wanted to disagree! 02:55:57 good enough for me as far as C++ goes 02:56:00 pikhq: click the damn bugzilla link 02:56:04 it needs two more patches than clang 02:56:08 coppro: not stable FOR THE KERNEL 02:56:16 or do you think as soon as it boots it'll be a stable kernel 02:56:17 ehird: I just started. 02:56:26 if so, um, have you ever read the kernel source 02:56:47 I'm just worried that statically linked llvm binaries will be huge 02:57:01 Why would they be? 02:57:16 support functions and stuff; I just doubt it's really been tested 02:57:35 I wonder how big a total llvm+clang toolchain is vs binutils/gcc 02:58:03 * coppro could try to compare, but he's lazy 02:58:04 At least judging from my experience building llvm+clang and binutils/gcc, llvm+clang is at least signficantly faster to *compile*. 02:58:21 yes, llvm+clang is far faster to build and to execute 02:58:31 yes 02:58:42 and doesn't have a hobbled-together artificial type system 02:58:48 which is a relief; I don't expect to provide a kde package, but webkit releases are, I think, quite often 02:59:24 you could use EDG to compile the kernel :P 02:59:26 i'll probably maintain the distro by having a huge tree with every package's source, install/uninstall files and any additioanl files to install, rsync, and mk 02:59:35 just to say you don't use GCC 02:59:44 just have a huge mkfile that includes all the others (which I'll craft myself) 02:59:49 Hmm. So, llvm-gcc doesn't build Linux because Linux relies on .code16gcc. 02:59:53 Holy crap. That's awful. 03:00:02 of course, the package mkfiles will do "make clean" 03:00:04 for the actual packages 03:00:12 so each package upgrade is a clean build 03:00:19 .code16gcc is the most crazy hack in GCC. 03:00:23 but it'll handle only building packages i've updated the sources or additional files 03:00:29 And GCC supports a *lot* of crazy hacks. 03:00:50 pikhq: i wish the bsds weren't so kernel-userspace wed, or I'd be using one :P 03:01:27 I wonder how quickly WebKit compiles with clang (excluding link time, since, you know, static binaries/libraries) 03:01:35 hooray for .a (does anyone even remember using .as recently?) 03:02:31 ehird: Well, you could check to see what Debian is doing to have a GNUy userspace on BSD. I can't imagine it being *that* crazy. 03:02:37 On the other hand, it is Debian... 03:02:46 well, sure, you can compile just the kernel 03:02:53 the point is that the bsd teams maintain the userspace AND the kernel 03:02:59 True. 03:03:02 ehird: Roughly 50% of the time on average I think 03:03:05 so the kernel will be developed according to the userspace 03:03:05 = a pain 03:03:19 coppro: what's that in response to? 03:03:28 ehird: you wondering how long WebKit takes to compile 03:03:37 ah 03:03:41 though GCC can be massively sped up with precompiled headers 03:03:42 50% of time as with gcc, that is? 03:03:46 yeah 03:03:47 i don't know how long it takes with gcc, really :) 03:03:57 30 minutes? two hours? 03:04:01 Clang currently doesn't support precompiled headers for C++ and it's not on the todo list 03:04:02 15 minutes? 03:04:18 ehird: I'd guess ~35, but that's pretty random and arbitrary 03:04:40 so ~17.5 minutes with llvm/clang 03:04:43 does that include link time? I imagine so 03:04:53 linking large shared libraries takes like 5 years 03:05:20 hmm, that's a good point; anyone know any a.out linkers that can be compiled without dynamic linking support and aren't made by gnu? 03:05:23 didn't think so 03:05:45 hmm, llvm-ld can link? 03:05:47 interesting 03:05:50 only llvm things, obviously 03:05:53 as in 03:05:58 oh 03:05:58 no 03:06:01 The llvm-ld program has limited support for native code generation, when using the -native or -native-cbe options. Native code generation is performed by converting the linked bitcode into native assembly (.s) or C code and running the system compiler (typically gcc) on the result. 03:06:03 never mind 03:06:42 gold supports LLVM and native linking... 03:06:51 gold also only supports ELF. 03:06:56 Oh, really? 03:06:58 That's kinda lame. 03:06:59 Yes. 03:07:05 Well, that's why it's fast. 03:07:10 Less abstraction. 03:07:16 And speed optimisations don't really matter when everything is static... 03:07:18 That'd do it. 03:07:22 Since a static linker is, you know, really trivial. 03:07:36 Like three steps removed from cat. 03:07:52 Gold supports doing optimisation at link time *instead* of compile-time, FWIW... 03:08:08 Yes; seems like a lot of complexity for little gain. 03:08:12 I wonder how much stuff assumes /usr exists. 03:08:21 Though, so does llvm-ld. 03:08:28 Just a bit more pain to get working. 03:08:37 llvm-ld doesn't actually make a native code executable, though 03:08:40 at least, from what i gather 03:08:43 it makes an llvm bitcode file 03:09:07 And you can then compile that. Yeah. That's what makes it a pain. 03:09:23 Yes. Beats the pain of using gcc, though. 03:09:29 agreed 03:09:36 In fact, a regular user development system won't include gcc, hopefully. 03:09:36 and makes compiling for different platforms easy 03:09:39 wtf 03:09:44 <3 ehird 03:09:45 xscreensaver-command: no screensaver is running on display :0.0 03:09:46 Of course, you can install it if you want to compile an odd program that requires it. 03:09:51 xscreensaver: 20:09:02: running on display ":0.0" 03:09:57 bsmntbombdood: :D 03:10:13 In fact, I wonder if there's even any GNU software a typical system willl run... 03:10:17 well, ncurses 03:10:25 xscreensaver is only locking one screen :( 03:10:34 bsmntbombdood: so run two 03:10:39 can't 03:10:43 why not? 03:10:50 ehird: you could distribute packages in llvm bitcode and have the package system build them as they arrive - it's a short step and would make things 1000000000x easier 03:10:56 xscreensaver: 20:10:50: already running on display :0.0 (window 0x1c00002) 03:11:30 coppro: But it shouldn't matter what's LLVM and what's not. Currently, my package manager's updating/installing process would consist of rsync and running a shell script. 03:11:36 Why would that help, iincidentally? 03:11:38 *incidientally 03:11:44 bsmntbombdood: ah, bad software 03:11:49 lemme look at xscreensaver's site 03:11:51 ehird: then you don't need to deal with ~8 platforms to build on 03:11:53 bad jwz! 03:11:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:12:00 coppro: ah, uh, i'm meant to support non-x86? 03:12:04 nobody informed me of this :) 03:12:06 ehird: eventually! 03:12:19 coppro: well, I'm only targeting desktop machines and maybe servers 03:12:20 besides, I'd still need the infrastructure for binaries 03:12:25 true 03:12:31 so it basically comes down to disk space; the bitcode format adds more complexitty 03:12:36 Is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html still up for anyone but me? 03:12:38 *complexity 03:12:39 thankfully, migrating to that should be easy 03:12:46 Sgeo: Still up. 03:12:53 you could also make the server do the bitcode compilation ondemand - even more complex though 03:12:53 o.O 03:13:01 coppro: quite 03:13:31 coppro: That's a stupid idea, anyways. 03:13:32 ugh, the xscreensaver faq says nothing 03:13:38 pikhq: why? 03:13:38 pikhq: why? 03:13:41 haha 03:13:43 The bitcode generated by C compilers is target-specific. 03:13:50 not LLVM's 03:13:53 Yes, it is. 03:13:59 wait, really? 03:13:59 ah. 03:14:06 then yes, that is a stupid idae 03:14:06 *idea 03:14:12 fine then, store output in llvm assembly code 03:14:14 Because sizeof( ) is done by the C compiler. 03:14:19 Not LLVM. 03:14:20 ah, good point 03:14:31 Oh, and *everything* that implies... 03:14:48 store the output in llvm assembly? that still has sizeof() issues 03:14:52 and is leaning further to a source distro! 03:14:59 That would at least work if you were dealing with a language that's not C-esque. 03:15:01 ehird: yeah, I said that before he said his objection 03:15:06 right :P 03:15:22 now, it's worth pointing out if the entire system were built that same way, it would work 03:15:27 heh, amusingly, turning it into a source distro would be easy enough 03:15:38 point the package manager to a local source instead of an rsync:// 03:15:47 and just set up the package build environment 03:15:50 + download aaaaaaaaaaaall of it 03:15:57 of course, keeping the source in sync is then your responsibility 03:15:59 erm 03:16:02 and like hell will you get any support... 03:16:09 upgraded xscreensaver and now it works properly :P 03:16:13 ehird: you wouldn't give support in any place 03:16:14 *case 03:16:15 b 03:16:18 *bsmntbombdood: like magic! 03:16:24 coppro: who says 03:16:34 ehird: your history of being a jerk 03:16:34 i'm perfectly happy to help people who don't do stupid stuff to their system 03:16:49 plenty of other people are jerks and still offer support 03:17:22 what's the file that gets run when x starts? 03:17:30 bsmntbombdood: Xsession or something 03:17:33 or ixnit 03:17:35 *xinit 03:17:35 I forget 03:17:42 your wm may also have an autostart system 03:17:46 err de 03:17:59 coppro: anyway, as long as you don't pretend you know more about the problem than you do and didn't do something really stupid, I'm happy to offer civil help... I'm not always a jerk, you know :P 03:17:59 TAs are confusing 03:18:05 also, bsmntbombdood uses ion 03:18:09 i somehow doubt it has such a thing 03:18:52 hmm, forgot to include "install dependency packages" in my mental model of a package install 03:18:52 still dirt simple 03:19:14 yeah 03:19:20 Eh, not necessarily needed. 03:19:28 Slackware seems to do just fine without it. 03:19:31 should probably dump a really trivial dependency map elsewhere, too, so that i can remove unused packages 03:19:40 pikhq: yeah, but installing packages in slackware is a bitch. 03:19:46 Fair enough. 03:20:05 I've got a new bad idea 03:20:25 how about a distro where there's no packages and every program brings its dependencies along with it? 03:20:27 wait... that's Windows 03:20:32 simple way to solve the "the autoremover thing wants to remove packages I explicitly installed!" thing: a fake package, say _explicit or something, depends on every package you explicitly install 03:20:40 (and is a null package otherwise; not on disk, just in the dependency map) 03:20:43 coppro: Been done. 03:20:48 bonus: lets you ask it what packages you explicitly installed 03:20:53 coppro: that's not windows, that's OS X 03:20:58 and it works quite well, fwiw 03:21:10 like, it's the same thing as static binaries, really 03:21:12 how is that not windows? 03:21:22 windows shit often puts stuff in shared directories and the like 03:21:28 whereas OS X things almost universally have it all inside the .app bundle 03:21:35 Windows puts stuff in shared directories haphazardly. 03:21:41 Without regard for breaking anything. 03:21:43 I didn't say it necessarily kept those dependencies to itself 03:21:50 OS X has almost everything in the .app bundle. 03:21:57 coppro: well, then that is of course a horrid idae 03:21:58 *idea 03:22:08 And Linux assumes that what it needs has been installed already. 03:22:17 (well, or makes sure it gets installed) 03:22:39 proprietary software on linux is a bitch 03:22:40 -!- linf has joined. 03:22:46 'Tis. 03:22:49 thankfully, that's pretty much... mathematica and games 03:22:52 the independent dependency model is fine as long as disk space is not a concern 03:22:59 linf: ha, we caught you 03:23:09 linf: Mr Russian music... is in #tokipona, and is n=nikita 03:23:10 ehird: and mathematica isn't needed any more :P 03:23:11 coppro: It at least works, yes. 03:23:16 linf: IS THAT YOU, LAMENT 03:23:22 you trolling scoundrel, you 03:23:26 what the fuck 03:23:26 coppro: replaced by what 03:23:31 lament: oh. 03:23:44 ehird: alpha and sage 03:23:48 lament: he was in here ages ago, being oblivious to the purpose of this channel and beingn incomprehensible. 03:23:53 *being 03:23:58 ohhh 03:23:59 I guess the .ru should have tipped off that it isn't you, though 03:24:06 but n=nikita + #esoteric + #tokipona seemed a fair beet 03:24:10 *bet 03:24:14 wow, that's pretty cool 03:24:20 linf: zdorovo 03:24:41 linf: ya tozhe nikita 03:24:48 lament: he doesn't actually know what this channel is for, I think he tried talking about russian folk music or something before, but i couldn't tell. admittedly it might be another linf 03:24:51 but i doubt _that_ 03:24:54 coppro: ehh 03:25:01 lament: hahahahaha 03:25:03 coppro: sure, for the pure mathematics stuff 03:25:08 mathematica is still useful for some things though 03:25:13 plus, more importantly, it's fun 03:25:25 what things? 03:25:36 * coppro has not really used mathematica 03:26:00 e.g. opening up images, applying various transformations, hooking it up into stuff from the web, then doing statistics on them and the like 03:26:10 just a sort of "unified analysis and munging environment" 03:26:17 mathematica does that? O_o 03:26:18 quite entertaining with the right data set 03:26:29 coppro: yes, and it also connects to wolfram's servers to download a ton of data really fast 03:26:34 e.g. historical gdps, and the like 03:26:38 in a tiny function call 03:26:42 ... 03:26:52 i dislike wolfram, and mathematica is really, really slow; but it's an awful lot of fun 03:27:23 lament: btw, did linf just find your name hilarious? 03:28:56 hmm... proprietary graphics drivers are usually modules, right? 03:29:04 but you can link module binaries into the kernel, if i'm not mistaken 03:29:21 you can compile modules in or load them at runtime 03:29:26 right 03:29:31 I explicitly want to leave out the module support 03:29:37 module SUPPORT? 03:29:45 the runtime loading, that is 03:29:51 why? 03:29:55 since they're basically dynamic libraries, except in the kernel, which is an even less fun prospect than in userspace. 03:30:10 oh right, you're mr. static 03:30:23 for good reason! i'm welcome to hear arguments for kernel modules. 03:30:26 fine, as long as you include fuse 03:30:38 maybe. 03:30:44 fuse is epic?D 03:30:51 s/?D/!/ 03:30:51 fuse is a bit slow 03:31:01 so? 03:31:12 by a bit i mean really 03:31:15 you don't use fuse for normal filesystems 03:31:20 ntfs-3g 03:31:21 you use fuse for stuff like mounting an ftp server 03:31:22 yes you do. 03:31:53 (which pisses me off; there's no good way to have a proper ntfs driver in the kernel nowadays) 03:32:41 coppro: anyway, if fuse doesn't increase the kernel size too much, I'll stronly consider it 03:32:43 -!- calamari_ has joined. 03:32:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 03:32:46 -!- linf has left (?). 03:33:06 (although I do wonder if there's a 9P mounter thingy for the kernel) 03:33:09 -!- FireyFly has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:33:12 that'd certainly be simpler 03:33:15 hmm... you know what would be cool 03:33:17 The kernel has 9P support. 03:33:25 I don't know how good it is, but it does have 9P support. 03:33:31 coppro: a pony? totally 03:33:35 pikhq: huh, really? 03:33:44 Yeah. 03:34:05 i wonder if anyone's made an X11-compatible thing that's better than X yet. ha ha, only joking. 03:34:07 /usr/bin is a fuse filesystem where attempting to run an executable that isn't installed automatically prompts to install, installs if requested, and then runs 03:34:17 ehird: isn't that by definition impossible? 03:34:38 coppro: you'd think so, but the current Xorg is really terrible 03:34:44 you could, at least, majorly clean it up and have minor functionality imprrovements 03:34:53 should be possible to debloat Xorg, though. with enough effort. sigh 03:34:57 The amazing thing about Xorg is that it's an improvement over the past. 03:35:01 ehird: then you should have said Xorg, not X 03:35:04 Xorg != 03:35:07 *!= X 03:35:09 yeah yeah whatever 03:35:25 maybe I'll just only compile in the new-fangled thingy that only the unstable intel drivers support 03:35:26 use XFree86! 03:35:32 (amazing and very, very scary) 03:35:37 after all, the proprietary ATI driver doesn't support old cards at all nowadays 03:35:43 that is — cards that were commonly used IN 2006 03:35:52 * coppro stabs FGLRX 03:36:01 coppro: You stab fglrx, but have you used the open source drivers? 03:36:07 So. Amazingly. Slow. 03:36:14 ehird: yeah, but they were stable 03:36:29 Yeah, stable, but the jagged artifacts when moving a window slowly... 03:36:33 Horrible. Just horrible. 03:36:40 you can always disable compositing 03:36:47 I did. 03:36:49 It was the same regardless. 03:36:50 O_o 03:36:54 That's how slow they are. 03:36:55 nothing that bad when I used it 03:37:12 coppro: also, no way in hell will i use xfree86 03:37:21 fglrx would hang if I attempted to run anything as difficult as glxgears 03:37:25 the license change shows them to be complete buffoons. plus it's totally dead and there aren't any drivers for it etc. 03:37:30 granted, half the time the open-source ones would simply give up at glxgears 03:37:46 but at least they didn't randomly cause me to have to reboot 03:37:56 coppro: fglrx DROPPED SUPPORT for my card from 2006. and I couldn't use an old version. Why? Because the only version supporting the new X11 version doesn't support my card. 03:38:09 so, ATI to users of my card: Buy a new card or fuck off. 03:38:10 haha 03:38:22 sounds like ATI 03:38:31 At least they released their hardware specs. 03:38:59 nvidia have better proprietary drivers, but ATI support the OSS drivers more 03:39:27 Jagged artifacts? Bottom and top of window not moving in sync? 03:39:38 Ilari: basically the whole window out of sync, yeah 03:39:53 for windows of any size, even dialogs 03:40:01 it was horrible 03:40:40 incidentally, anyone have any strong opinions on the default (and "official") FS to use? 03:40:52 Not really 03:40:58 I'm a fan of ext though 03:40:59 The bottom and top not being in sync is caused by lack of syncing the updates to Vretrace. 03:41:28 I'm leaning towards JFS; it doesn't seem to be hugely actively developed, but it's not abandoned, and it's like XFS, except it doesn't like to lose data on crashes, and is way faster at metadata (including creating files, etc) operations, making it one of the fastest "real" linux filesystems 03:41:46 and the fsck takes *3 seconds* — and that's when it has to recover some data 03:41:50 (and it recovers very well) 03:41:57 it only takes 2 seconds for less data to recover 03:42:04 and presumably almost nil time if there's nothing to do 03:42:57 I'm pretty much not considering ext because I hate the multiple-minute fsck times more then the plague 03:43:23 And apparently JFS supports SELinux... 03:43:33 yeah 03:43:37 not really planning to use selinux, though 03:43:50 way too much fuss, too little gain; save the capability-based security for ehirdOS 03:43:52 ext fsck isn't usually very long if there's no corruption 03:44:00 coppro: if you have a tiny disk 03:44:01 if there's problems, though... 03:44:06 it takes about 3 minutes, all the time, for me 03:44:16 and longer if it has to fix stuff 03:44:28 compared to that, 3 seconds when the system hard reset while doing stuff is godly 03:44:56 how big is your disk?! 03:45:16 um, this one? 250 GB 03:45:40 though the 3 minute figure is from the old PC, which has a 500 GB disk (and partition) 03:45:48 since I don't use linux on this, at least not for extended periods of time 03:46:08 it had a consumer-level Athlon when doing that, though, and 2 GiB of RAM 03:46:15 so it's definitely the fsck being the bottleneck 03:46:19 (and the 500 GB disk is 7200 rpm) 03:46:33 it's a bitch. 03:47:59 If windows get severe jagged atefacts when moving, the video drivers must REALLY suck. I can only get some artefacts on this computer, video driver is pretty much the suckiest (fb) and hardware sucks hard. 03:48:18 yeah; it's the non-radeonhd (radeonhd doesn't work) open source one 03:48:21 called ati or radeon 03:48:31 ehird: this is 250GB, but it is partitioned 03:48:40 hardware is a radeon x1600, like a mid-range notebook card from 2006 03:48:50 releassed in 2005 i think 03:48:52 *released 03:49:07 Ilari: i mean, it's not hugely severe, but if you look at the edges you definitely notice it every time 03:49:17 Heh... Moving window slowly uses something like 50% CPU. 03:50:16 mm... framebuffer 03:50:29 Tasty like faeces! 03:50:37 mm... forbidden donut 03:50:49 Homer's second-best line! 03:51:14 The first: 03:51:18 One useful use of framebuffer. When X craps out (like if its keyboard driver(!) craps out), ALT-SYSRQ-R, ALT-F1. 03:51:22 mm... something 03:51:29 eh, I was going to quote The Odyssey 03:51:30 but I cba 03:53:26 Yes, had keyboard driver of Xorg crap out... Without it working, CTRL-ALT-Fx doesn't work. 03:53:49 heh 03:54:13 hey, has xorg fixed graphics drivers so that if it craps out X doesn't die yet? 03:54:15 didn't think so. 03:55:01 no, of course not 03:55:12 Ilari: Alt + SysRq + R 03:55:31 coppro: that's, like, the best thing about windows vista. not that that sets the bar terribly high 03:56:13 Magic SysRq? 03:56:49 there should be a usb peripheral for linux that's a magic wand like the wii remote thing, right, and you can do gestures to do magic sysrqs 03:56:53 -!- Gregor has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:56:56 hard-rebooting becomes merely a spell. 03:57:08 lol 03:58:39 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:58:47 looking at xmonad 03:58:59 bsmntbombdood: dwm is the best of breed of the xmonad-types 03:59:04 why 03:59:04 well, dwm-types really 03:59:12 because it is 03:59:37 very simple, no retarded the-config-file-is-the-program-also-it-depends-on-ghc-because-fuck-you-we-like-haskell-config stuff, and yeah. 04:00:58 also 04:00:59 NEW dwm creates a view for each Xinerama screen. 04:01:04 so it should work well with multihead setups. 04:09:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:12:18 * pikhq notes that "the-config-file-is-the-program" would work much much better if Haskell had an eval function... 04:12:25 Quite. 04:12:52 Though the closest you get to eval in Haskell is linking against GHC so you can use GHC's libraries to create a (small) interpreter. 04:13:09 xmonad just compiles the config file 04:13:09 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:13:20 Yes. I'm well aware. 04:13:22 you know, I thought I knew C fairly well until I looked at some suckless code 04:13:30 i think i'm not dumb enough 04:13:36 Should I read some? 04:13:36 like, my mind creates too many abstractions ahead of itself 04:14:05 pikhq: Absolutely. http://dl.suckless.org/dwm/dwm-5.7.2.tar.gz is dwm; dwm.c is 2018 lines long in total. 04:14:10 and the only other code file is config.h 04:14:18 Not much to read. 04:14:36 ehird: That's very impressive considering a) it's C b) it's C that *uses X11*. 04:14:39 well, it's config.def.h technically, but you copy it to config.h and modify. 04:14:47 pikhq: Absolutely. 04:15:07 "To understand everything else, start reading main()." it gives a basic overview of some stuff before that, but I love that concept 04:15:11 like, it's uber-procedural code 04:15:16 so procedural that you can just follow from main to understand it 04:15:17 Also, this appears to be designed such that a straight Makefile is *actually sane*. 04:15:41 they even make their manpage look easy :( 04:16:34 ... Holy crap that's nice C. 04:16:49 They make C look easy. 04:16:54 THEY MAKE C LOOK EASY. 04:17:07 that was my reaction too :/ 04:19:20 uuuh wtf 04:19:26 Is this... Is this what UNIX was meant to be? 04:19:54 the very top, middle pixels are not visible on the monitor 04:21:14 pikhq: the other programs whose code i think is very representative of suckless style are dmenu (menu selection/completion system; designed to be used to e.g. launch programs with dwm; http://dl.suckless.org/tools/dmenu-4.0.tar.gz) and ii (filesystem-based irc client; http://dl.suckless.org/tools/ii-1.4.tar.gz) 04:21:49 * pikhq would like to see suckless create a C compiler. 04:21:55 well, sic is too, but it's a terminal-based IRC client in less than 250 lines, so it's not surprising that it's very simple 04:22:03 pikhq: I think they'd point you to plan9's 9c :P 04:22:08 I'm imagining something similar to tcc. 04:22:13 Oh, right, plan9's C code. 04:22:18 That, too, is pretty nice. 04:22:55 It helps that they get a library better than libc to work with. ;) 04:23:06 dmenu, I think, has their largest seeming-task-complexity : code-simplicity gap 04:23:16 i.e., it's the code that seems the most like it should be more complex 04:24:37 "Many (open source) hackers are proud if they achieve large amounts of code, because they believe the more lines of code they've written, the more progress they have made." -- Suckless manifesto. 04:25:05 * pikhq notes that lines of code is more of an inverse metric. 04:25:25 yeah 04:25:40 another good metric: count of data structures 04:25:43 and size of data structures 04:25:56 here's an example bot written for ii, incidentally: 04:25:58 tail -f \\#/out | 04:25:58 while read foo ; do 04:25:58 name=$(echo $foo | awk '{print $2}' | sed 's,<\\(.*\\)>,\\1,') 04:25:59 if awk 'BEGIN{srand(); exit rand()<.1)}' ; then 04:25:59 echo "$name: WHAT??" ; 04:25:59 fi; 04:26:01 done 04:26:07 substitute , obviously 04:26:27 (and add #channel/in, too) 04:26:30 erm 04:26:33 >#channel/in 04:26:35 Heck, that's one of the things I like about Haskell: your code is succinct and can be very simple. 04:26:55 haskell code tends to be complex because the environment around it isn't haskelly 04:27:05 for algorithmic work, though, it's very simple 04:27:15 * pikhq nods 04:27:35 oh man, I wonder how big static binaries made with gcc are 04:27:39 probably at least 20 MiB 04:27:52 Depends on the libc. 04:28:00 If it's glibc, "very large". 04:28:41 that's a point, I should pick a libc 04:28:47 what is the meaning of ths 04:28:55 bsmntbombdood_: define ths 04:29:06 < bsmntbombdood_> the very top, middle pixels are not visible on the monitor 04:29:14 define not visible 04:29:17 covered by bezel? dead? 04:29:23 covered by bezel 04:29:39 your monitor manufacturer doesn't care about you 04:29:47 so they decided to make it look shinier instead. 04:29:52 obviously 04:29:53 Hmm.... 04:29:57 729663 sort 04:29:59 ^ static 04:30:09 31828 sort 04:30:12 ^ dynamic 04:30:24 Which sort is this? 04:30:49 Small program I wrote a few years back when I was just figuring out sorting algorithms in C. 04:30:51 If it's GNU, then it gratuitously uses half of the standard library just because it can. Also, glibc is huge. 04:30:59 right, static gnu sort would be way bigger 04:31:07 I blame glibc, then 04:31:17 Glibc is freaking huge, yes. 04:31:44 hmm... looks like my libc options are dietlibc or newlib 04:31:52 Not uclibc? 04:32:02 Well, that's really embedded-targeted, isn't it? 04:32:06 newlib is intended for embedded systems, but cygwin uses it as its libc 04:32:17 and dietlibc, while mainly used on embedded devices, is optimised for small size 04:32:19 To an extent. 04:32:28 (and omits uncommonly used functions) 04:32:53 uclibc's embedded support consists of the ability to disable uncommonly used functions. 04:32:58 And working on uclinux. 04:33:46 * ehird looks up newlib's license 04:33:54 newlib is tempting because Cygwin uses it 04:34:05 and Cygwin works with, well, not a lot, but that's Cygwin's fault 04:34:39 newlib is LGPL 04:34:45 well, it's also GPL, but the lib itself is LGPL, I gather 04:35:04 grrr 04:35:10 dietlibc is... wait, what? GPL? 04:35:15 Newlib's main tempting property is that it has been shown that many things can *use* it. 04:35:41 dietlibc is gpl, and it's intended only for static linking 04:35:41 so... 04:35:45 doesn't virility apply? 04:35:58 *virality 04:36:04 It would. 04:36:18 that suxx big butt 04:36:26 pikhq: heh, it's the readline argument, isn't it? 04:36:36 what if I linked a third party program against it? 04:36:40 are they violating the GPL? 04:37:06 It's... Very fucking irritating to resolve. 04:37:28 yeah, well, copyright is fucked. 04:37:44 The LGPL's behavior in such cases is at least well-defined. 04:37:53 but i don't want to play with fire. i don't believe in intellectual property, but that's for personal stuff 04:38:13 Then I guess dietlibc's out. 04:38:14 such a shame, because dietlibc looks rather good 04:38:31 oh, and it has a subsystem named libcruft 04:38:32 which i love 04:39:06 and the code looks nice — I should stop before I get annoyed that it's GPL 04:39:35 uclibc is also apparently usable for 'most things'. 04:39:48 Q: GPL sucks! Now I can't compile my BSD programs with the diet libc! 04:39:49 A: Wrong. You can compile them, and you can use them. You just can't 04:39:49 redistribute the binaries. If you are a distribution vendor and want 04:39:49 to use the diet libc to make BSD licensed binaries for the install 04:39:49 or rescue floppy which you sell commercially, please talk to me. 04:40:05 eh, blow me, i don't give a fuck about your anti-commercial bent, i just want to make a distro 04:40:09 byebye dietlibc 04:40:25 ... Even Stallman doesn't support using the GPL for such a case. 04:40:41 More extreme than Stallman regarding free software = *facepalm* 04:40:48 Q: Can I compile or use the diet libc with a compiler that is not gcc? 04:40:48 A: Compile: no. Use: yes. 04:40:48 ALSO, BLOW ME AGAIN 04:40:52 admittedly probably most are like that 04:41:00 does it even make sense to compile a libc with clang/llvm? 04:41:20 I don't see why not. 04:41:29 llvm does have some overhead, yeah? 04:41:40 Not really. 04:42:04 So, it's uClibc vs newlib. 04:42:06 FIGHT 04:42:06 TO 04:42:07 THE 04:42:08 DEATH 04:42:14 The only "overhead" is that LLVM "produces very slightly slower" code than GCC. 04:42:15 In computing, uClibc is a small C standard library intended for embedded Linux systems. uClibc was created to support uClinux, a version of Linux not requiring a memory management unit and thus suited for microcontrollers (uCs; the "u" is a romanization of μ for "micro").[2] 04:42:24 so, clearly uClibc's development focus will be embeddedness 04:42:33 (GCC has some optimisations that LLVM doesn't) 04:42:44 LLVM produces better code in some cases, though. 04:42:47 I think. 04:42:48 Yes. 04:42:50 Or at least, clang. 04:43:02 5 May 2009, SVN -> GIT 04:43:02 We've migrated from SVN to GIT. SVN is frozen read-only before the conversion, so check out the Developing links and such for updated instructions. 04:43:02 well, the uclibc guys are modern... 04:43:09 newlib is a red hat project with all that entails 04:43:23 "uClibc++" hey that's nice, a C++ lib too 04:44:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:44:22 "The GNU C library is a great piece of software, make no mistake." —uclibc FAQ 04:44:25 :| 04:44:49 "So uClibc is smaller then glibc? Doesn't that mean it completely sucks? How could it be smaller and not suck?" 04:44:49 i think i'm going to start calling such things "strawman FAQs" 04:45:35 Still, uclibc seems to function well for a system libc. 04:45:48 the faq is very embedded-oriented, it seems 04:45:56 and it seems that uclibc is gcc-only 04:46:04 that is, you have to build uclibc-using programs with gcc. 04:46:31 So's many things that clang builds just fine. ;) 04:46:44 true, but the gcc is *patched* 04:46:47 clang supports most of GNU C, you know. 04:46:49 ... Oh. 04:46:52 you need a patched gcc to build uclibc binariess. 04:46:53 *binaries 04:46:58 even just binaries that use it 04:47:00 Never mind. newlib it is! 04:47:39 Hopefully. 04:47:46 Okay, newlib. 04:47:53 Plus eglibc for broken programs. 04:48:00 (STRFRY() OLOLOLO) 04:49:44 good, then. 04:50:38 any hows 04:50:44 this should be easy, then. 04:50:54 one thing I'm unsure of how to handle is permutations of kernel configs 04:51:06 the main distros usually solve this by a whole shitload of modules, plus a really large base kernel config, but that sucks 04:52:09 Very large kernel or "build one". 04:52:20 (which sucks less, I wonder...) 04:53:15 methinks I'll just include what people actually use as far as drivers go, plus perhaps separate kernel packages for graphics drivers, as they're the only big proprietary kind of thing, everything else should work ootb 04:53:29 otherwise, build one, it should be quite easy with the package system 04:54:00 pikhq: Think I should use TuxOnIce? It's one of the hibernate/restore systems; apparently it can hibernate and restore in just seconds, which sure as hell beats the S2 stuff. 04:54:07 Fedora uses it, I believe. 04:54:28 Thing is, you have to patch the kernel. 04:55:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_T4ZcPkqVA it's still quite slow, though... 04:55:51 coming from an OS X background where it takes about 3 seconds either way 04:56:02 'cause it uses a hybrid suspend/hibernate 04:57:55 oh well 04:58:00 wonder how big my kernel will be 04:58:09 i bet around 2 MiB 05:00:15 okay, so that's most things sorted 05:01:02 of course, I need to find a decent linux system from which to develop it... 05:08:17 Doo doo doo, ood ood ood 05:08:33 Clearly I should use LFS to build it! No. No. 05:10:50 * ehird looks up what mailing list software suckless.org uses 05:11:13 mlmmj. "maling list management made joyful". Cute name. 05:11:32 It didn't make me rage when I wanted to post to it without receiving replies, so that's good. 05:20:42 gah 05:20:48 you were right about the haskell 05:20:53 told you. 05:21:20 come to the dwm side! we have cookies. uh, actually, we don't. we have... lots of code? hmm. we don't have much actually 05:21:29 i have this stick if you want it. 05:21:38 it's a good stick! 05:21:57 haskell: gives you the willies 05:22:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:22:25 nothing wrong with haskell, something wrong with using it as a configuration language thouh 05:22:29 *though 05:31:14 -!- Oranjer has joined. 05:31:24 donkey poodle 05:31:38 a donkey shaved as one shaves a poodle? 05:31:47 no. 05:31:51 a donkey that is a poode 05:32:00 uh-huh 05:32:06 "skvm is a lightweight volume manager for GNU/Linux. It depends on hal and dbus." 05:32:13 why is this on the suckless code server 05:32:15 i mean hal and dbus, really? 05:32:20 ??? 05:32:28 i'm not talking to you 05:33:25 yes 05:33:32 okay 05:33:39 fax: yes your momm. 05:33:42 *mom 05:34:55 I could've sworn HAL sucked sufficiently that most everyone was trying to replace it... 05:35:16 they are 05:35:31 and dbus is pretty heavyweight when you can just use more lightweight IPC 05:35:34 by pretty i mean really 05:35:50 all it needs now is to require udev too :-P 05:36:40 Dbus is meant work sanely with GNOME and KDE... So, yeah, it's obviously going to be pretty heavyweight. 05:39:20 maybe i need to write an email client that sucks less, since all of them have such retarded approaches to threading 05:39:44 I could've sworn that threading in general had retarded approaches. ;) 05:39:54 not that kind of threading. :P 05:40:01 heh 05:40:09 Ah. That too. 05:40:17 well, ehird, what's your approach to threading? 05:40:28 i mean mail threading, fwiw 05:40:31 I know 05:40:41 what's your idea(s) about it? 05:41:18 Oranjer: threads don't nest, messages are displayed linear by date in one thread unit. optionally, I guess, above this, a reflection of where you are in the thread that scrolls with you that nests like a regular nested thread tree. 05:41:31 just like gmail, except with that extra panel to make sense of complex threads 05:41:43 hmmm, okay 05:41:55 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 05:42:08 although I totally don't understand the optional reflection 05:42:23 well 05:42:28 you know email clients that support threadin 05:42:32 they just show a tree of authors/subjects/dates 05:42:37 in the select-message list 05:42:39 yeah 05:42:41 not the message itself 05:42:43 how do they know 05:42:52 basically, one of them above the linear thread, except when you scroll to the next messae 05:42:54 *messae 05:42:59 message 05:43:03 the reflection scrolls with you 05:43:07 so you can see the nesting around you 05:43:13 bsmntbombdood: various things, see: 05:43:18 okay, that's cool 05:43:19 http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html 05:43:32 I presume the nesting refers to replies? 05:43:39 In-Reply-To, and References. Sometimes titles. 05:43:44 Oranjer: yeah 05:43:49 okay, cool 05:44:19 there'll be a key in the inbox to switch from just-show-the-threads-and-not-the-replies (click to open it where you get into the view I just subscribed) and show-every-message-most-recent-first 05:44:26 since the latter is useful e.g. when recordkeeping a nomic 05:44:31 since you have to know exactly what happened after what 05:44:37 yeah 05:46:52 when i say switch 05:46:56 when you click on a thread in the message list 05:47:04 it shrinks, the linear-thread appears below 05:47:10 and the thread in the list expands 05:47:13 and starts scrolling with you 05:47:18 that way, switching threads is just a click 05:47:31 (if you scroll manually, it'll stop scrolling with you until you scroll it back into view) 05:48:11 with the no-threading mode, it'll be the same, except expanding will do nothing since no message will have replies represented, and the linear one will just display one message 05:48:19 (and, of course, no auto-scrolling) 05:50:26 uh-huh 05:50:33 i think i lost you 05:50:40 no 05:50:42 I got it 05:50:48 two separate displays 05:50:53 one next to the other 05:50:53 "uh-huh" seems like "ooooh kayyy" to me :P 05:50:55 right 05:51:06 well, one underneath the other, probably 05:51:10 but yeah 05:51:20 I dunno, both are going "down", right? 05:51:28 true 05:51:43 it just makes more sense to me to put them side by side, while using english 05:51:46 it's just that subjects can be quote long; add the date and name fields... 05:51:48 but, you're right 05:52:04 in fact people dislike that OS X's Mail can only do it underneath, and there's more than one plugin that forces it the other way 05:52:09 I'll have to experiment 05:52:14 of course 05:52:30 hmm... perhaps putting the list at the right when you select a message is the thing to do 05:52:44 since it has to be big to be useful, it'd just take up space on the left 05:52:50 and you'd have to shift your eyes to the right after clicking 05:52:56 due to the thing you want to focus on moving 05:53:04 but if it went at the right, you could just click and read 05:53:16 yeah 05:53:22 (in english) 05:53:34 shush you :P 05:53:38 dirty non-englishers 05:53:51 hey 05:54:00 joking. 05:54:01 although, I do wonder 05:54:32 in, say, arabic, does time flow from the right to the left? (in models and diagrams and such) 05:54:42 good question 05:54:53 I'll ask google 05:54:56 I imagine so, at least pre-western influence 05:54:57 but I don't know how 05:55:02 yeah 05:55:03 post-, who knows? cultural osmosis is a powerful force 05:55:10 aye 05:55:22 "timelines in arabic"? 05:55:24 and time-based diagrams probably weren't often used before the west came along and barged in, I imagine 05:55:30 Oranjer: will get timelines about arabic 05:55:32 but give it a try 05:55:32 "displaying time in arabic languages" 05:55:38 I will 05:58:02 ha, I'll be damned 05:58:15 oyah? 05:58:19 I image searched some arabic-time things 05:58:32 and I saw an image that reminded me of your threading idea 05:58:40 haha 05:58:41 link? 05:58:51 of course, it's just a basic file-management scheme, but yeah, link 05:58:53 http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/arabicdev/dotnetservers/SQL/images/sql_ArabicSupport_08_thumb.gif 05:59:11 *it reminded me, I know your idea is different 05:59:16 hehe, yep 05:59:22 haha 05:59:28 I like that 1421 create date 05:59:31 rockin' it old school 05:59:33 haha 05:59:38 *old school 05:59:40 fuck keyboard shit argh 06:01:33 View the Solution FREE for 30 Days 06:01:35 geez 06:01:37 I hate that 06:01:44 heh 06:03:16 hmm 06:03:18 curious 06:03:57 it seems your theory was right, that I can't find any timelines made by Arabic-speaking people 06:04:02 but that just seems absurd 06:04:09 I mean, there were Arabic astronomers 06:04:14 and Arabic historians 06:04:22 Western norms seem obvious. 06:04:53 obvious to us, because we read left-to-right and top-to-bottom 06:06:20 what i mean is 06:06:27 western norms like "timelines" 06:06:44 perhaps 06:06:59 but when an Arabic historian writes a theoretical narrative 06:07:05 he goes from right-to-left 06:07:18 so what if he were to put a line, with dates, on the bottom? 06:07:28 apparently, google tells me that never happened 06:07:30 :( 06:07:53 Well, just keep looking. 06:07:57 Google is a bitch nowadays. 06:08:01 :O 06:08:40 yay it started snowing! 06:09:05 hopefully it keeps up 06:09:12 mind you, I always had the idea that one could simultaneously search for phrases-the-same-but-for one word, and in each search, the search engine would replace it with a synonym 06:09:17 also, snow, awesomes 06:09:40 like "forest of the dark", "woods of the dark", etc. 06:09:58 will kill if there is e.g. a song named one of the synonyms 06:10:04 of course you could have syntax to omit one synonym 06:10:09 but i doubt it'd help searching that much 06:10:25 ah, ha 06:10:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:10:54 wait, do you mean my idea, or limiting the synonyms, wouldn't help searching? 06:12:03 the former 06:12:16 :O 06:12:41 I dunno, I can see me using it for when I have an idea, and I want to check if someone else has already had it 06:13:02 it's rather mechanical, though 06:13:05 but! because we would have supposedly invent the idea independently of each other 06:13:06 not much room for variation, and too much at the same time 06:13:15 the terminology would be different 06:13:55 syn:color syn:change pen 06:13:59 heh 06:14:27 of course, that would also produce too many searches for one line if input to create 06:15:30 :( 06:15:55 oh, ha! now I get what you were saying in the latter half of your last comment 06:16:10 ....which is exactly what i just said :( 06:17:03 "syn:seed num:2" "syn:phone num:4" 06:17:05 meh 06:19:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy#Time I can't believe that's the closest I've gotten 06:24:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:26:44 well, I'm finding a bunch of early Arabic scholarly texts 06:27:00 and they most certainly included histories 06:27:20 one apparently has a diagram of plant growth 06:27:28 Voynich! 06:27:29 but...I can't find any pictures 06:27:39 ha! 06:27:46 (creeps me out) 06:27:54 as it does to me 06:28:06 although, I still want to know what it says 06:28:12 i know all the reasonable explanations, but there's something about it 06:28:21 why? 06:28:23 makes me uneasy 06:28:26 Cthulhu? 06:28:28 don't know 06:28:34 heh, that would be crazy 06:28:57 I mean, it just seems that the book describes...things and people not existent, ever, in our world 06:29:08 like the Shoggoth? 06:29:11 so either it chronicled extinct things 06:29:15 ha, yes, lament 06:29:16 stop it, you're creeping me out 06:29:22 * coppro doesn't understand why infinity can't exist 06:29:27 :O 06:29:29 haha 06:29:33 coppro: what does that even mean 06:29:34 we live in the Universe, for crying out loud 06:29:35 oh yeah, I forgot I linked that 06:29:40 it's either a joke or really stupi— 06:29:42 yeah, stupid 06:29:49 coppro: yes, and the universe is finite 06:29:50 we certainly live in a finite universe :) 06:29:57 lament: not certainly 06:30:01 just — almost certainly. 06:30:03 coppro, me forgetting I linked that made your comment extremely creepy to me 06:30:16 we live in a finite universe that is expanding, and for all we know this expansion may be infinite 06:30:29 yes, but it will never be infinitely bi 06:30:30 g 06:30:33 well, we have a finite amount of the universe we can observe, but we're fairly certain it exists everywhere 06:30:34 also, no, the universe is finite in time too 06:30:38 probably. 06:30:44 :( 06:30:45 Oranjer: is there a difference? 06:30:49 ehird: we don't know for sure 06:30:52 mot really 06:30:55 *not 06:30:58 I don't think there is a difference. 06:31:01 coppro: yes, but probably 06:31:06 :( 06:31:06 entropy and all that 06:31:10 I hate the Big Crunch 06:31:24 entropy only matters if the universe is expanding infinitely 06:31:46 i kinda think my priority would be to expand my 80 year lifetime before worrying about the end of the universe. 06:31:56 just because everything becomes stretched so thin that there are no interactions does not mean it ends 06:31:56 i mean, you know, buy a few billion years 06:32:25 http://www.strangehorizons.com/2003/20031222/december.shtml 06:32:33 Santa at the end of the universe 06:32:36 epic, I would say 06:32:42 tldr 06:32:44 tilder 06:32:45 lawl 06:32:47 ... 06:32:50 it's a short story 06:32:57 i was joking 06:33:01 oh, okay 06:33:10 Oranjer: the universe doesn't exist further than [the age of the universe] light years away 06:33:11 and in any case, the entropists are fundamentally stupid. The idea that entropy will eventually make the universe a 100% boring place relies on the idea that somehow a gigantic piece of rock will split apart spontaneously 06:33:19 I know, lament 06:33:30 that's the observable universe, not the /whole/ unicerse 06:33:30 AnMaster once had the audacity to say tl;dr to http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html 06:33:31 that is why I said we can only observe that much universe 06:33:37 and then expect me to restate it 06:33:43 yeah, coppro 06:33:49 coppro: haha that's idiotic you are idiotic. 06:33:52 s/c/v/ 06:33:54 firstly, "entropists" 06:34:02 ehird: come up with a better term 06:34:05 "somehow" yeah it's called the universe's expansion 06:34:12 "the whole sentence" wow this is idiotic 06:34:15 ehird: how about, chaos worshippers? 06:34:23 EVIL EARTH HATERS 06:34:27 DEATH WISHERS 06:34:27 we have to assume that a point X light years away *also* has such a bubble of its own "observable universe" 06:34:37 SPONTANEOUSLY RIPPED APART BECAUSE WE WANT IT TO ERS 06:34:42 Oranjer: do we? 06:34:51 I think physicists do 06:34:55 what definition do we have of real, if not observable? 06:35:00 hmmm 06:35:00 Oranjer: actually, we don't 06:35:10 oh! okay, I stand corrected, lament 06:35:13 :O 06:35:26 ehird: in that case that theory requires that the universe expand so quickly that the fundamental interactions can't pull matter back together. Which, I believe, we have shown won't happen because large collections of mass slow the exansion of the Universe. 06:35:27 russell's teapot isn't real because, by definition, we can't observe it 06:35:59 heh, ol' russell 06:36:04 too bad he died :( 06:36:08 anyway 06:36:20 Oranjer: it holds for all the points *inside* the universe by relativity; and for outside points, we don't have to assume anything since they are never of interest 06:36:21 I think the progression of logic is that 06:36:24 i'm fairly sure russell was no EPISTEMOLOGICAL ANARCHIST, Oranjer 06:36:30 filthy authoritarian! 06:36:34 yeah, lament, what lament said 06:36:37 hehe 06:36:39 :O 06:36:40 (i will give you shit about this on your deathbed!) 06:36:45 eww 06:36:50 no, not literally shit 06:36:51 shut up 06:37:00 I think I would be doing the shitting on my own deathbed, thank you very much 06:37:12 because that is what happens when you die :O 06:37:13 Why do I suck at typinhg today? 06:37:19 and when you give birth :O 06:38:18 Faeces isn't the only bodily fluid involved in death! 06:38:20 OKAY NEW TOPIC 06:38:51 yep 06:38:52 fungot: 06:38:53 coppro: february 23, 1997, sunday, final edition'". user:ling.nutling.nut 20:52, 19 may 2008 ( utc) 06:38:59 okay, that's the topic 06:39:02 go 06:39:08 uhh 06:39:13 ling.nutling.nut 06:39:14 what 06:39:22 well, it's a diplodrome, for sure 06:39:24 LINGG NUTLING NUT. 06:39:27 er 06:39:28 capslock 06:39:30 also typo 06:39:32 also sdfjkhussdfkgnhndf 06:41:08 ha! the Arabic world started making so much books because they captured some Chinese paper makers in 751 06:41:13 awesomes 06:41:21 too bad they didn't capture silk makers 06:43:42 I plod Rome's Fun Diplodromes Fund 06:44:03 hah! 06:44:17 yay coppro, all finding out what a diplodrome is 06:47:27 okay, my search for *any* diagram of time made in Arabic has been largely fruitless 06:47:29 but! 06:47:56 I did find out that the "qibla problem" is the problem of determining the direction of Mecca at any point on earth 06:47:59 :O 06:57:28 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 06:57:38 ahhh oops 06:58:07 did anyone say anything? 06:59:52 {Oranjer} :O 07:00:00 haha, okay 07:00:07 and hello, MizardX 07:01:57 awesome: http://www.wowbagger.com/ 07:02:24 how'sat awesome 07:02:49 it's an insult gen-o-ator, coppro 07:02:59 yes 07:03:03 but it's awesome 07:03:38 -!- Oranjer1 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:04:28 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 07:13:02 fungot? 07:13:03 Oranjer1: yes this page is mostly duplicate material that already exits on the same comparable level, capable of carrying over 1500 men, but could use improvement to be more interested in continuing the traditional role of the person who deleted my link subsequently wrote: 07:13:15 ha 07:13:32 "capable of carrying over 1500 men" 07:14:42 fungot, that last thing you said made no sense. Care to elaborate? 07:14:42 Oranjer1: am i just being anal here or am i misunderstanding how these things are explored in the article 07:14:48 hahaha 07:15:02 IANAL 07:15:04 ^style 07:15:04 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube 07:15:09 ^style irc 07:15:09 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 07:15:12 fungot: babble 07:15:13 ehird: obsd should have it tomorrow), just store lambdas in the slots and you're back in .tw for the holidays. 07:15:29 fungot: I love OpenBSD! Just store some lambdas in slots and it transports you to Taiwan. 07:15:29 ehird: exploring new possibilities is nice, but sometimes it's necessary. 07:15:35 fungot: How is that a but? 07:15:36 ehird: " so that the text says ' o(1) fnord time you'll need links going both directions afaics he doesn't build the initial image) 07:15:41 fungot: What. 07:15:42 ehird: fnord udage! 07:15:45 fungot: YAAAAAAAAAAY 07:15:52 ouch 07:15:55 you ran out 07:16:02 Went out on a bang. 07:16:07 A meaningless bang. 07:16:18 fnord udage! 07:16:49 fungot, explain yourself! 07:16:49 Oranjer1: must write something that idiotic again, i was 07:16:53 haha 07:16:55 Yoda 07:17:10 fungot: You were— 07:17:10 ehird: i heard p2p apps are fundamentally illegal.) kala ( finn.) is preferable to just having name. 07:17:27 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:17:27 fungot: Aww, but I dislike kala (finn.). I like normal names better. And P2P apps are totally legal! 07:17:28 ehird: it's not a language 07:17:34 fungot: What isn't? 07:17:34 ehird: now he told me when i have two questions for you about that 07:17:41 fungot: Ah. What are the questions? 07:17:41 ehird: you need scheme48vm in such a way that is as simple as possible. the interpreter printed the return value 07:17:48 fungot: Agreed; simple VMs rock. And? 07:18:00 Touchy. 07:18:05 fungot: Can you please explain the ehird? 07:18:05 coppro: mathematics isn't constructivist. i 07:18:08 fungot, answer ehird's question! 07:18:09 Oranjer1: i just wanted to see if it halts, it won't let me change the port on startup? 07:18:15 fungot: Of course it isn't! 07:18:16 coppro: i did put x1 y1 x2 y2 in it 07:18:21 haha 07:18:24 fungot: now that's a start 07:18:25 coppro: oh dear, i shall have to leave any minute now 07:18:25 Explain the ehird? 07:18:32 fungot: Bots can leave? 07:18:33 ehird: or just ip and fnord lines long... part of the language's intrinsic control structures." 07:18:35 fungot, no! 07:18:36 Oranjer1: i want to know precisely what you want 07:18:42 uhhh 07:18:43 Ah, the moving of the IP. 07:18:46 that's a coherent sentence! 07:18:50 Cute analogy, fungot. Hey, don't be so pushy. 07:18:50 ehird: of course you know that 07:18:53 well done fungot! 07:18:54 coppro: as in " anything else is a compromise, a compromise would be to write a language 07:18:55 Yes fungot I know that 07:18:56 ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" 07:19:00 :D 07:19:12 `addquote ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" 07:19:12 ehird: i never realized how small scheme was ever aimed towards fnord removal of weakness and restrictions mentioned in the irc rfc, since it's pretty simple 07:19:17 fungot, I want to preserve sentience by saving humanity by ruling the world. Precise enough? 07:19:17 Oranjer1: sorry for the trouble, and i can evaluate... and force a return of the last 07:19:21 98| ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" 07:19:21 fungot: uhh... 07:19:25 coppro: as for soundcards, i have never encountered problems with becoming fnord by the object's implementation. 07:19:32 :DD 07:19:59 fungot: try the proprietary drivers 07:20:00 coppro: ( that is) it'd start to take pictures in fnord. 5 of the fold, collect, reduce, wapr ( use %help for argument information) 07:20:10 fungot: %help 07:20:11 coppro: why not?...... about 300 wpm. i'm too lazy to look at the map. 07:20:17 haha 07:20:32 humans have maps for driving 07:20:36 fungot has maps for typing 07:20:36 ehird: forgot to select cl coloring style there. i'm active more often, that is). 07:22:30 fungot 07:22:31 Oranjer1: why? this channel has people with strong opinions. that's a press machine right? so its in a makefile called i-know-what-i-am-doing, does one have to manually specify it 07:22:44 niiiice 07:22:57 "that's a press machine, right?" 07:23:14 i like that makefile name 07:23:18 it's the advanced one clearly 07:23:28 also, the last sentence looks like a geeky way of saying "shove off, I'm the expert" 07:23:40 so its in a makefile called i-know-what-i-am-doing, does one have to manually specify it? 07:24:32 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 07:24:55 yay 07:25:18 fungot, what do you think about: human languages? 07:25:18 Oranjer: it's just a bit 07:25:24 okay! 07:25:49 -!- Glamseyes has joined. 07:26:17 :O 07:27:36 ...... 07:28:11 -!- Glamseyes has quit (Client Quit). 07:28:20 xD 07:36:07 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 07:53:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:26 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 08:22:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:53:10 -!- ehird has quit. 10:15:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:41:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 11:12:39 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:49:27 Hm, I didn't know facebook has a "English (Upside Down)" as one of the language options. ".əɔıoɥɔ ɹnoʎ ɟo əƃɐnƃuɐl əɥʇ uı ʞooqəɔɐℲ əsʍoɹq oʇ ɹəpɹo uı əƃɐnƃuɐl ʎɹɐɯıɹd ɹnoʎ ʇəS" 11:51:51 My font doesn't like that upside-down F at all 11:51:59 It lacks a vertical line 11:52:33 They're cheating a bit with some characters; approximating g with ƃ, latin small letter b with topbar. 11:52:44 Works here. 11:54:13 Ⅎ is U+2132, turned capital F = "Claudian digamma inversum", in the letterlike symbols thing. 11:54:24 Yep 11:54:38 http://iki.fi/deewiant/tmp/f.png 11:55:59 http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/f.png 12:34:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:37:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:37:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:12:31 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 13:23:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:27:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:08:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:11:12 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:20:12 -!- augur has joined. 14:29:20 -!- Oranjer has joined. 14:29:33 fungot!!?! 14:29:34 Oranjer: if the fnord and patches and the vcs you use emacs? 14:29:44 I do not use emacs, fungot 14:29:45 Oranjer: no, just a 14:29:56 just a what, fungot? 14:30:04 fungot? 14:30:07 :( 14:30:13 Oranjer: that's reasonable in a way mit scheme isn't recognizing." " oh, first download and compile sdl_image. :) 14:30:26 uh-huh 14:31:39 Yes, you need sdl_image in order to be able to use spaces in MIT Scheme. 14:31:42 xkcd :D 14:31:51 uhhhh huh 14:32:10 ^style 14:32:11 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 14:32:14 ah, irc 14:32:23 ^style speeches 14:32:24 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 14:32:38 fungot, what do you think of Keynesian Economics? 14:32:43 :( 14:32:49 fungot! 14:32:53 fungot! 14:32:56 :O 14:33:02 did I kill fungot? 14:33:40 :O 14:33:51 *MWAHAHAHA* 14:34:12 oerjan! you are evil! 14:34:41 it just thinks you are boring company, and refuses to talk to you any more. right fungot? 14:34:46 oerjan: we have no right to exclude slavery from a territory, and fnord bray, remember me; and with an awe that is almost superstitious. i should be painted with all sincerity, and was loved by them; and whether we consider the conduct of the war. now that palled, and i know, that the hall of apollo. 14:35:11 that's got be an *old* speech 14:35:20 Most things in Gutenberg are. 14:35:24 hall of apollo? Battlestar Gallactica? 14:35:28 (< 1860) 14:35:29 fungot: You sound so pompous when you talk like that. 14:35:29 fizzie: quintilian applied to general literature the same principles, or precedents, of the secondary pleasures of the poor labouring man. fnord, who divided his attention between several exercises, though he constantly exposed himself to the public service and make the happiness of mankind. 14:36:05 I constantly expose myself to the public service (workers) 14:36:26 I also make *the* happiness of mankind (pornography) 14:37:52 Unfortunately the workstation's offline, I can't check what all went into that style. I think I just searched for the word "speech" in the title, and hand-picked some promising ones. 14:38:12 ha 14:38:17 fungot 14:38:18 I'm sure there's at the very least "Selections from the Speeches and Writings of Edmund Burke"; Burke lived 1729-1797. 14:38:19 Oranjer: it yields nothing itself; it keeps all it has, perhaps, it may be further observed, that this great work would be dedicated to the proposition that all is safe, that he had studied much and travelled far. he had to combat frantic enthusiasm, boundless ambition, unquestioned courage, admirable sagacity. yet i have frequently observed in him a fnord copy of the book which has made the house of commons 14:38:56 cool speech fungot 14:38:58 Oranjer: " this association for fnord" 14:39:02 haha 15:04:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 15:10:19 fungot 15:10:20 Oranjer: he counted and said it was fnord and fnord of a departed city, retained the privileges of the. 15:10:27 ^style 15:10:27 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube 15:10:40 ^style pa 15:10:40 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 15:10:43 ha 15:10:46 fungot 15:10:47 Oranjer: they can't actually check that. but, with a few rounds of onslaught daily, odds are good you could lead a normal life. and i never really told her how much... how much i... 15:10:59 uh-huh 15:11:04 ^style wp 15:11:04 Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) 15:11:10 ^style ct 15:11:11 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 15:11:21 cool, fungot 15:11:26 fungot 15:11:29 :( 15:24:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:25:33 Oranjer: fungot won't let you spam them 15:25:34 Deewiant: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! 15:25:50 fungot 15:25:50 Oranjer: but, we are far outnumbered! 15:25:54 :O 15:25:56 we are! 15:26:04 Fortunately, there are other bots here (EgoBot and HackEgo) that you can use to circumvent it if you just want to chat 15:26:12 heh 15:26:23 :O 15:50:21 -!- mtve has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:50:21 -!- HackEgo has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:03:07 -!- HackEgo has joined. 16:03:23 -!- mtve has joined. 16:20:44 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 16:21:52 :O 16:22:01 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 16:40:07 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:44:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:45:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:51:40 -!- adam_d has joined. 16:53:34 wow, Novell just appealed SCO vs. Novell to the Supreme Court 16:53:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:54:05 tbh, I should have seen that one coming 16:54:16 they haven't accepted it yet, though 16:54:21 what 16:55:39 Oranjer1: the whole SCO story is one of the most ridiculous litigations in recent history 16:55:52 uh-huh 16:56:18 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 16:56:28 people got interested in the first place when SCO claimed that using Linux is illegal; that's pretty much been thoroughly debunked, but SCO have still managed to get various court cases going all these years 16:56:36 even though they're technically bankrupt, and have been for almost a year now 16:57:16 oh, okay 16:58:25 (it's the litigation in which the judge redefined time, for instance; it's really absurd) 16:58:44 ha 17:03:00 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:03:26 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:09:13 ais523, so... 17:09:24 what was the reason for appeal there? 17:09:24 so? 17:09:32 * AnMaster hasn't followed the SCO stuff recently 17:09:43 AnMaster: because SCO appealed the original SCO vs. Novell verdict to the state appeal courts 17:10:01 and the verdict that came back effectively said that claiming that someone had given you the copyright on something meant you actually had it 17:10:08 which is so absurd that Novell appealed it up to the level above 17:10:15 ah 17:10:15 saying it contradicted loads of other verdicts 17:10:40 yeah, how the hell could it have ended up like that 17:11:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:13:01 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 17:13:31 AnMaster: that isn't even the weirdest thing that happened in the SCO litigation... 17:13:31 hm ehird would like to know about this, if he is still considering a thinkpad... 17:13:51 ehird: for log reading http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_high_pitch_noises#Limit_ACPI_CPU_power_states 17:14:02 so wait what exactly are the SCO wanting to do? 17:14:14 Oranjer1: nobody's entirely sure any more 17:14:16 for me it happens in some rare (for me at least) workloads. Not otherwise 17:14:23 the leading theory is that someone's paid them to kepe the litigation going as long as possible 17:14:31 because there's no real other explanation for their behaviour 17:14:37 ais523, but why 17:14:46 heh 17:15:09 AnMaster: well, SCO are famous for claiming that Linux is illegal 17:15:16 So MS? 17:15:21 how? it's opensource! 17:15:45 Oranjer1: SCO claimed that Novell had the copyright on UNIX, sold it to them, and that Linux infringes the copyright of UNIX 17:15:50 because, um, some of the commands are the same 17:16:02 BOO HOO HOO 17:16:03 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 17:16:16 all three of the statements there are dubious; the first is the only one that's even likely to be correct 17:16:33 what could possibly happen if Linux is made illegal? 17:16:42 what Linux user would care? 17:16:46 everyone would have to pay SCO $600 for the privilege to use it 17:16:48 and I'd care 17:16:53 but it isn't, SCO's arguments make no sense at all 17:16:54 :O 17:17:09 (Red Hat sued SCO over their statements, incidentally) 17:17:23 (and also indemnified all their customers against them, which is /really/ unusual) 17:17:45 uh-huh 17:19:33 SCO also sued Autozone (for using Linux, but apparently they're going to settle that one), IBM (for contributing code to Linux that they claim infringes their copyrights), and Novell (for claiming that they didn't give SCO the copyrights in question in the first place) 17:19:44 suing IBM is widely regarded to be an incredibly stupid move 17:19:51 especially given how tenuous their case is 17:29:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:29:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:46:08 -!- fax has joined. 17:57:02 ais523: Not to mention that IBM's legal team is notorious for being able to outwait anyone. 17:57:55 pikhq: so is SCO's 17:58:06 OTOH, IBM's legal team is also notorious for winning 17:58:09 something SCO's hasn't managed yet 17:58:31 ohhh 17:58:49 IBM outwaited the US government. 18:00:26 pikhq, what? when? 18:00:50 yeah, pikhq, we want to know 18:05:55 ...? 18:06:06 pikhq died 18:06:10 * Ping reply from pikhq: 1.33 second(s) 18:06:18 ha 18:06:18 so he can't blame it on connection issues 18:10:53 he might not be here 18:10:59 I often leave my computer on when I go elsewhere 18:11:23 ais523, I *usually* set /away when I do 18:16:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:23:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:30:29 I have a silly Python XChat script to listen to dbus notifications sent by xlock's startCmd hook so that it automagically sets away/back when I lock/unlock the screen. Sometimes boredom makes you do really useless things. 18:31:07 fizzie, no offense, but that sounds exactly like something fungot would say 18:31:07 Oranjer1: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!! gotcha! 18:31:16 ...depending on the style 18:31:30 The sword alone can't stop! 18:31:53 fizzie, no offense, but that sounds exactly like something fungot would say 18:31:54 AnMaster: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! 18:31:55 no it doesn't 18:32:07 meh 18:32:14 ^style 18:32:16 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 18:32:21 Oranjer1, keep ct for now please 18:32:26 fungot, hi there 18:32:26 AnMaster: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!! 18:32:28 I will, sure 18:32:35 fungot, oh really? 18:32:36 AnMaster: in the middle ages, sir slush!... i grow so tired. we can talk we had soldiers searching for! i've come to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!! 18:32:40 Ozzie gets easily stumped. 18:32:46 fungot, so what about that sword? 18:32:50 AnMaster: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? 18:32:58 Hey, that's relevant. 18:33:08 fizzie, is it? 18:33:15 It's from the Masamune cave scene. 18:33:21 fizzie, oh really? 18:33:28 fizzie, the last bit too? 18:33:30 Direct quotation, I think. 18:33:39 Checking. 18:34:03 fungot, not really 18:34:36 fungot, AnMaster said not really 18:34:40 :O 18:34:41 Oranjer1: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca 18:34:45 Oranjer1, eh? 18:34:45 -- 18:34:47 MUNE: What should we do? 18:34:47 MASA: The usual...test them. 18:34:47 You can entertain us for awhile. 18:34:48 -- 18:34:52 oh 18:34:56 cool 18:34:56 Yes, pretty direct quotation, except it put a ? there. 18:35:03 right 18:35:08 fungot, mhm 18:35:13 AnMaster: we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!! 18:35:17 heh 18:35:21 saving a stranger? 18:35:31 fungot, so. 18:35:32 AnMaster: you! take! we find! 18:35:39 fungot, I see... 18:35:40 AnMaster: you! take! we find!? 18:35:40 (The ? came from "You're breaking my concentration, so would you find somewhere else to go for awhile?") 18:35:46 what 18:35:48 that was weird 18:35:58 AnMaster: You! Take! We find. 18:36:08 haha 18:36:08 fizzie, yeah where is that from 18:36:12 must be a direct quote 18:36:20 like a rousing game of Steal and Seek 18:36:27 Ayla, no doubt. 18:36:31 oh true 18:36:36 fungot, *prod* 18:36:37 AnMaster: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... 18:36:43 no I don't think so 18:37:15 Heh, getting offensive. 18:37:20 yeah 18:37:29 * AnMaster is still waiting for the sword one 18:37:43 and where exactly is the sword scene from? 18:38:04 I think it's in the ocean palace, when you stick your stick into the mammon machine thing. 18:38:20 ah right 18:38:37 since I hit 4 someone else has to continue 18:39:17 fizzie, and why the repeat thing on it? Doesn't seem to make sense 18:39:19 -!- augur has joined. 18:39:48 That "You! Take! We find." is from two things; the latter half is from Ayla's "Not here too. Someone take! We find!" (from the sunstone sidequest) and the front part is from "You! Take care Ayla." 18:40:08 hm 18:40:15 fizzie, I meant the repeat of "sword alone" 18:40:23 Yes, I'm checking that now. 18:40:52 fizzie: I hope you're looking these up and not remembering them by heart 18:41:06 XD 18:41:18 Deewiant: All the direct quotations are looked-up things, yes. 18:41:39 Deewiant, the guess that it was Ayla however was pretty given. (Or others from the same epoch.) 18:41:51 fizzie, wait, was the sunstone a *side*-quest? 18:41:57 thought it was required or something 18:42:41 No, it's one of the six-or-so sidequests that you get at the end. 18:42:48 It's "required" if you want the Rainbow, though. 18:42:48 hm 18:43:01 ah right 18:45:42 Heh, the repetition is actually "caused" by the variable-length model; it hasn't bothered to include the "can't stop it" ngram that would actually continue the sword-alone sentence correctly, and the most likely continuation for the single-word context "stop" is of course ! (there's quite a lot of "stop!"s around). Then when it has created "stop!", it always continues using the "stop! that" ngram, leading to a repetition of the sword-aloneness. 18:46:30 fizzie, wait, what was the original exact phrase? "that sword alone can't stop it"? 18:46:36 Yes. 18:46:45 ah hm 18:48:08 The Befunge code is pretty stupid in that it can only choose from the maximum-length ngrams it finds in the model; combined with the variable-length model which keeps only a couple of longer-length ngrams (those which are common, basically), it's virtually guaranteed to always use those whenever the context is suitable. 18:48:56 It doesn't hurt so much for the other cases where I've generated unpruned "all ngrams up to N=k" models with a constant k. 18:49:28 Even there it does cause that tendency to quote verbatim pretty often. 18:50:31 The variable-length model estimator tool gives me back-off probabilities I could use to sometimes use a shorter context too, but that would need changes in the Funge-98 side, haven't had time to implement that. 18:52:10 There might even be a Funge-98 randomness generation bug, in fact, because I don't get the loop from the Perl test script. 18:52:54 Here's 20 lines, none of them really looped: http://pastebin.com/m1ce086cc 18:53:34 "this power is beyond human control! over 1300 points!" That's pretty funny. 18:55:23 fizzie, pretty. What does it do 18:55:25 that script 18:55:58 It's supposed to do the same thing fungot's babble-generator does. Except that you can feed it some starting context if you want. 18:55:58 fizzie: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!!! 18:56:08 ah 18:56:14 fungot: Are you sure your randomness is completely random? 18:56:14 fizzie: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! 18:57:27 fizzie, funge programs can read cmd line arguments. So no reason to not use same 18:58:13 Er, yes, there is: I don't have the capabilities for mapping from strings to token numbers in the Funge-98 code. 18:58:25 fizzie, shouldn't be impossible :P 18:59:05 Of course not, but it would still need to be implemented. In the Perl code it's just "slurp tokens.bin into a Perl hash variable"; in Funge-98 it's a bit more nontrivial, especially to do it efficiently. 18:59:24 slurp? 18:59:33 Read. 19:00:01 implement a hash table library for funge 19:00:16 or maybe binary tree 19:00:18 (The other way around -- from token indices to strings -- I already do in Funge-98 to generate the final output, but that's just "seek to idx*4, read offset and length, seek to offset, read string".) 19:00:22 would likely be faster 19:00:27 generate a tree of w 19:00:48 fizzie, idx*4? 19:01:07 The offset+length values are four-byte objects. I think. 19:01:27 fizzie, so where does it get the idx from? 19:01:55 From the babble-generator, which generates a sequence of idx numbers. 19:35:13 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:43:30 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 19:44:24 -!- Oranjer has joined. 19:44:52 -!- ehird has joined. 19:50:25 -!- ehird_ has joined. 19:51:43 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 19:58:49 fungot: Are you sure your randomness is completely random? <-- maybe the issue is in the perl script instead? 19:58:50 AnMaster: you! take! we find! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly! 19:59:04 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 19:59:05 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 19:59:26 ehird, see log today about thinkpads (if you are still interested in those) 19:59:34 oh and the sysfs interface is missing in ubuntu at least 19:59:42 I am. 19:59:47 Ubuntu doesn't have /sys? 20:00:03 ehird, yes it does. But not the relevant file for that issue 20:00:05 Given that the Perl script works better, I don't really care which one is "wrong", I'd be more interested to know just what the difference is. 20:00:08 the thing is built in I think 20:00:15 AnMaster: You can disable sysfs, I think. 20:00:17 fizzie, different seeds? 20:00:23 ehird, well. That isn't the point here 20:00:30 Right. 20:00:31 plus it would break udev iirc 20:00:42 (static dev would work) 20:01:01 My distro won't have udev anyway :OP 20:01:04 *:P 20:01:07 I probably will have /sys, though. 20:01:21 You need it to control overcommitting and the like, unless i'm mistaking. 20:01:25 *mistaken 20:01:46 ehird, anyway. ehird: for log reading http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_high_pitch_noises#Limit_ACPI_CPU_power_states 20:02:06 and you need kernel boot parameter to make it work under ubuntu 20:02:13 That's a lot of affected models. 20:02:19 ehird, yep. 20:02:35 ehird, it is slightly higher pitch than a CRT I would say 20:03:04 "Screen brightness: on an X31, a hissing sound is started whenever screen brightness is not full." 20:03:05 Ultraportable fail 20:03:14 ehird, agreed. 20:03:22 ehird, I have no problems with *that* at least 20:03:44 "Turn off CPU power saving in the BIOS" 20:03:45 -!- Oranjer1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:03:45 I don't think a different seed is enough to make fungot more repetitive than the Perl script. (Admittedly I'm not sure it *is* more repetitious, it's just a vague feeling.) 20:03:46 fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. 20:03:47 TERRIBLE IDEA 20:03:50 >_< 20:04:08 07:26:04 Fortunately, there are other bots here (EgoBot and HackEgo) that you can use to circumvent it if you just want to chat 20:04:09 False 20:04:10 ehird, anyway for it to be annoying on my laptop it needs something like 2000 wakeups / second 20:04:10 fungot ignores them 20:04:11 fungot: I'll open *your* hatch if you keep that up. 20:04:11 ehird: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword al 20:04:13 which is rather rare 20:04:16 yay finnay fungot 20:04:17 AnMaster: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? 20:04:19 finally* 20:04:38 There's just something about ehird that the sword alone can't stop. 20:04:45 Totally. 20:05:04 XD 20:05:07 AnMaster: Hah! My awesome Linux distro will have, like, 3 wakeups/s. 20:05:20 ehird, sure. This isn't on idle for me anyway 20:05:43 ehird, some loads *does* result in lots of wakeups. In this case it was when doing md5sum on a file over nfs 20:05:49 where laptop was the "server" 20:05:53 (yeah I had good reasons) 20:06:01 The only issue with mine is that since nobody else is this minimal I'm on my own :P 20:06:21 ehird, you are turning into zzo + elegant UI 20:06:24 it's scary! 20:07:05 At least I'm not writing my own software 20:07:06 Just the distro 20:07:19 AnMaster: But yes, I'm crazy. 20:07:33 ehird, what about the installer and such? 20:07:38 Although really, it's bare-bones enough that maintenance should be quite easy. 20:07:39 will you reuse an existing one? 20:07:47 package manager? 20:08:08 Installer is, uh, copying the root FS, and then maybe some auto-configuration. 20:08:20 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:08:23 Package manager I'm rolling myself; I have the design mostly ready and it's very, very simple. 20:08:41 ehird, what about selecting what components you want? Or is it "everyone get the same"? 20:08:47 (Update or install package = Install dependencies, rsync from the package server's directory for that package to /, update the file list) 20:08:53 (Update the simple dependency map) 20:08:57 rsync what? 20:09:05 uh uh 20:09:15 Uh uh what? 20:09:20 are you saying something like rsync server/package / 20:09:23 And you select components by — shock — managing packages. 20:09:26 AnMaster: Pretty much. 20:09:36 ehird, some issues, what if a file is no longer in the new version? 20:09:58 oh and, there are other ones too. Technical ones. But sure go ahead. 20:09:59 AnMaster: Simple. 20:10:01 The file list. 20:10:09 ehird, what about signed packages? 20:10:14 It simply rms any files that have been removed. 20:10:15 I assume you would want that 20:10:21 ehird: It does? I thought it just applies the 3-strikes-and-you're-out ignorance to everybody 20:10:28 Deewiant, 4 20:10:34 Deewiant: Eh? 20:10:41 ehird, about fungot 20:10:45 AnMaster: the masamune! 20:10:45 This is my package manager that does it 20:10:46 fungot ignoring *Ego* 20:10:46 Deewiant: the real queen's safe, right! right. wrong! 20:10:58 Oh. 20:10:58 Yes. 20:10:58 fizzie: say ^ignore 20:11:01 to see the regexp 20:11:06 AnMaster: Signed packages; eh. 20:11:13 ehird, yeah, gpg key or such 20:11:13 AnMaster: I could do them. 20:11:14 ^ignore 20:11:15 Bloody ACLs 20:11:17 ^ignore 20:11:19 But it'd be a pain, and it rarely solves much, IMO. 20:11:24 ehird, would be a bit of pain with rsync though 20:11:26 No ignorance there either 20:11:28 When have you ever seen a PGP error? 20:11:33 fizzie: Huh. 20:11:38 I don't think I actually made it show the regexp at all; it just says "ok" when you set it. 20:11:45 ehird, hm. Due to invalid signature? A few times 20:11:50 For other reasons? Never 20:11:51 Did you just erase it :D 20:12:00 AnMaster: Right, so, never because it's been compromised 20:12:07 ^say fungot 20:12:08 I don't think so; it probably looks for "^ignore " with the space. 20:12:09 It is a consideration though; thanks for that 20:12:17 AnMaster: But it's easy to do. 20:12:20 !say fungot 20:12:21 AnMaster: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered! 20:12:27 `echo fungot 20:12:28 AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... 20:12:30 fungot 20:12:31 Currently ignoring ^(HackEgo|EgoBot)! if my logs are right. 20:12:36 AnMaster: Sign a file containing every file's SHA-1. 20:12:40 ehird, hm 20:12:44 AnMaster: The rsync goes to a temp directory instead, then checks them all. 20:12:52 Voila. 20:13:07 ehird, there are some issues with config files and rsync though 20:13:19 you want your httpd config overwritten by new version? 20:13:27 or to get the ability to diff and merge 20:13:32 AnMaster: Config files will be written by the package manager's install script if there is none. 20:13:48 hm 20:13:49 AnMaster: If the syntax or whatever has changed, or you really should have a new directive, tell the user. 20:14:02 e.g. Gentoo, according to pikhq, doesn't really have a culture of running the config-merger script 20:14:05 and it seems to do fine 20:14:19 Mostly it's just an annoyance for me where I hit "keep my config dammit" 20:14:29 ehird, hm? "doesn't really have a culture of running the config-merger script"? There is dispatch-conf that pops up a diff and some options 20:14:34 you can make it use colordiff 20:14:37 which is really useful 20:14:50 portage tells you if there are any configs to merge 20:14:52 There's a tool, but pikhq says most users very rarely run it. 20:14:57 at the end of the install/upgrade 20:15:04 18:38:16 Gentoo has a script for merging any changes in config files. 20:15:05 18:38:32 If you don't execute the script, it leaves your config files the hell alone. 20:15:05 18:38:34 any? lemme guess, a generic merge tool 20:15:05 18:38:37 yeah 20:15:06 18:38:43 how often is script execution done? 20:15:06 18:38:49 i mean, on average 20:15:07 18:39:13 I get the feeling that generally, merging is unneeded, and when it's needed it's either really easy to do or a complete renovation, which can't be automated without a lot of pain 20:15:10 18:39:14 I do it every time I upgrade, but that's just me being rather careful & paranoid. How often do most do that? 20:15:13 ehird, huh. I always run it when portage tells me to 20:15:13 18:39:20 Uh... Very, very rarely. 20:15:29 Anyway, I can easily add a merging system. 20:15:29 oh and I have /etc in VCS too 20:15:38 sadly all that dispatch-conf supports for that is rcs 20:15:44 I probably won't add signed packages at first, because they're not very important and simplicity is the #1 goal 20:15:50 so while I know the stuff is there I have no clue how to get it out without reading docs 20:15:58 etckeeper on ubuntu is cool 20:16:04 versions your /etc and integrates with apt 20:16:28 My package manager will be a handful of rc shell scripts 20:16:38 So, very easy to integrate with. 20:16:46 (I might add some hooks to avoid overwriting on upgrade.) 20:16:52 ehird, heh. I assume you got that idea from SourceMage (the package manager there being written in bash) 20:16:54 Oh, and my init system will be two rc scripts too... 20:16:59 AnMaster: Nope, just simplicity. 20:17:06 Since 90% of it is just using stock tools. 20:17:17 It might call a C program to update the dependency graph. 20:17:25 ehird, trust me. It is not simple. Rather it is quite messy. I guess it might be better with rc though 20:17:28 (used for removing unused packages, basically) 20:17:40 AnMaster: Because I imagine SourceMage's package manager is overcomplex, like all of them. 20:17:49 Even Slackware's is overcomplex because it's too simple. 20:17:58 Leading to heaps of complexity when using it. 20:18:04 ehird, since sourcemage is, well, source based, it isn't trivial no 20:18:07 I looked at it 20:18:16 they even wrote something like doxygen for bash 20:18:21 just to be able to maintain it 20:18:29 Heh. Braindead. 20:18:36 (this thing, bashdoc, is written in bash of course) 20:18:42 ehird, I used bashdoc in envbot though 20:19:02 quite nice 20:19:33 after some adjustments to make it generate slightly less "web around 1992" like output. 20:19:56 So, let's see where my current design is... tiny kernel without modules + no initrd + static binaries + a.out + very simple filesystem hierarchy + lilo + no udev + no hal + init system is two rc scripts + package manager is just a few rc scripts and maybe a little c, very simple, rsync based 20:21:07 If I want a long, exciting features list it should be all the things I *don't* do. 20:21:19 ehird, weren't you going for a "no kernel" something? 20:21:24 or is that a different project? 20:21:31 This is a linux distro. 20:21:53 ehirdOS is unlikely to be usable for *years*, being that it's still being designed.. 20:21:55 *designed. 20:21:59 This is intended for me to use. 20:22:04 Oh, I forgot 20:22:20 + clang instead of gcc wherever possible + non-glibc libc (eglibc for things that REALLY need it) 20:22:55 I'm frozen at an old version of gcc since they dropped a.out support, too. So it'll be nice when the kernel can be booted with clang (two kernel patches builds it atm, but it can't boot). 20:23:05 WebKit and KDE already compile with clang... 20:23:13 Hopefully WebKit will be stable compiled like that. 20:24:10 Have I mentioned, I'm crazy. 20:24:33 Oh well, at least I only have to deal with this crap when the assholes behind any project make a new release. :P 20:24:52 does clang do a.out? 20:24:59 clang just does LLVM. 20:25:07 I don't know if LLVM does a.out. 20:25:10 I thought you could compile the resulting LLVM 20:25:17 Well, duh. 20:25:25 What I mean is that it's up to LLVM. 20:25:34 But I really don't know. I hope so. 20:26:06 Hmm... 20:26:07 [[The a.out format has no direct support for debug information, but can be augmented with stabs, which uses special symbol table entries to store data.]] 20:26:13 Hopefully stabs are still supported, then. 20:26:41 The main problem with this being a distro will be my general unwillingness to package things I don't like, methinks. 20:26:57 No KDE allowed! (And probably no GNOME because building that is a bitch, I gather.) 20:27:20 I've built gnome-games, it went pretty smoothly 20:27:59 Eh, we'll see. 20:29:15 * pikhq wonders if the various recipes for GoboLinux can be forced into being useful for non-Gobo. 20:29:20 ehird, why do you want a.out? 20:29:38 ELF is overkill for static linking. 20:29:39 there is no good reason except possibly tiny size for embedded systems. And even there I'm doubtful 20:29:41 Exactly. 20:29:48 pikhq, well sure. But why static? 20:29:51 Small size, really simple, I don't need dynamic linking. 20:29:56 AnMaster: Because: 20:30:01 dynamic means *less* to download at updatesa 20:30:01 AnMaster: He's all about simplicity. 20:30:03 updates* 20:30:04 AnMaster: http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ 20:30:05 and such 20:30:07 AnMaster: And it doesn't. 20:30:19 ehird, security patches I meant 20:30:20 Dynamically linked glibc binaries? Bigger than statically linked newlib binaries. 20:30:35 ehird, what about security fix for libpng or such 20:30:36 AnMaster: It doesn't work. Dynamic linking is a seemingly nice idea but it failed. 20:30:45 Anyway, just read http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/. 20:30:50 ehird, what about plugins that are dlopen()ed 20:30:53 I'll link to the Plan 9 wiki's page on it too, sec. 20:30:55 because there *will* be such 20:30:55 AnMaster: Don't do them. 20:31:02 Dynamic linking would be much nicer if it weren't for ABI breakage. 20:31:06 ehird, forget openoffice for example. And firefox iirc. 20:31:19 AnMaster: That's good, I'm not interested in them. But I could patch them. 20:31:24 and lots more 20:31:25 Or make them depend on a dynamic linker. 20:31:31 That's nice. Mostly shit software. 20:31:52 http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ 20:31:53 http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ 20:31:57 ehird, like bash? 20:31:58 (Context for the latter: Plan 9 is statically linked only.0 20:32:00 *.) 20:32:02 it supports that optionally 20:32:07 loadable modules I mean 20:32:10 Plz2bereading. 20:32:12 zsh depends on it 20:32:12 AnMaster: So I'll disable it. 20:32:17 Please. 20:32:17 Read. 20:32:19 Those two links. 20:33:13 I'd like to just note that pretty much all the problems I've had on Gentoo are related to dynamic linking. 20:33:16 And to add on to the reasons in those two pages: It's simpler. 20:33:24 And less work for me, too... 20:33:26 And most of the recompilation. 20:33:48 (you'd be surprised at how often ABI breakages happen in libraries) 20:33:50 " And, as Linus mentioned, TLBs matter. Hmm. Judging by 'ps', cat on linux 20:33:50 needs 256 of them, and cat on Plan 9 needs 6." 20:33:55 um. Just one thing 20:33:59 that is because of GNU 20:34:02 gnu is bloated 20:34:04 No shit Sherlock. 20:34:12 The point is that it's an invalid argument because it's the GNU retards that say this crap. 20:34:15 just compare to dynamically linked cat on freebsd 20:34:17 or such 20:34:21 that is more fair 20:34:23 The point 20:34:23 20:34:24 Your head 20:34:39 The GNU idiots go "OHH DYNAMIC LINKING OH GOD SIZE" when it's their software's fault that things are so big. 20:35:06 ehird, and I never had much problems with the "swap in bug fixed version" in fact 20:35:08 just FYU 20:35:11 FYI* 20:35:17 guess I'm just lucky 20:35:21 And pikhq has. And many other people have, so yeah, lucky. 20:35:37 The reasons in http://blog.garbe.us/2008/02/08/01_Static_linking/ are more philosophical than the Plan 9 link. And simplicity too. 20:35:39 I run revdep-rebuild after every single emerge that upgrades a package. 20:35:50 Because ABIs break often. 20:36:14 (incidentally, why the fuck does making Xlib using XCB break the Xlib ABI?) 20:37:16 Hmm, yeah, XCB. I think I'll use that. 20:37:24 pikhq, I seen programs without ABI breakage 20:37:35 Really? Woow. 20:37:39 You mean it doesn't ALWAYS break? 20:37:44 Dynamic linking! FUCK YEAH! 20:37:44 ABIs are very easy to break with C++. 20:37:55 KDE has to go out of their way not to, in fact. 20:37:58 pikhq, strangely enough for me, it didn't. Was rather confused why revdep-rebuild found nothing and so on 20:38:24 pikhq, but yeah the last X update was flawless for me. Just needed to rebuild nvidia module (forgot about that first time around) 20:38:26 (fun fact: change the private members of a class? That's an ABI break!) 20:38:33 pikhq, that is because C++ sucks 20:38:50 I assume something slightly saner like C when discussing ABIs 20:38:57 C++ sucks and it's also FUCKING HERE. 20:39:02 ehird, sadly yes 20:39:12 if you consider C++ then yes dynamic linking is insane 20:39:15 Want a great web rendering library? WebKit. 20:39:27 Well, in C, at least you can prevent breakage without thinking about it *too* much. 20:39:28 The alternatives? Um, Gecko... which is shit... and also uses C++. 20:39:34 So... yeah, C++ is mandatory. 20:39:36 ehird, no thanks. I'm happy with w3m-mode 20:39:48 Taking away functions, and changing the types of functions... 20:40:01 I think those are pretty much the ways to break C ABI. 20:40:11 (assuming same functionality) 20:40:35 pikhq, yeah and those you can pretty much avoid in a stable version. Bug fix only mode you know. 20:40:55 * pikhq nods 20:40:57 (at least in practice) 20:41:03 practise* 20:41:12 Surprising that people manage to screw that up. 20:41:22 huh. Aspell accepts both "practice" and "practise" 20:41:22 how strange 20:41:28 * AnMaster wonders which is correct 20:41:39 Incidentally, using static libraries should reduce most of my package dependencies by a ton... 20:41:39 Since I don't need to depend on libraries. 20:42:04 pikhq, well yes. I agree that it is strange 20:42:21 AnMaster: Both are correct. 20:42:23 still I haven't seen too much ABI breakage in C apps (unlike C++ ones) 20:42:33 what's the highest resolution display you can get? 20:42:36 is it a t221? 20:42:38 ehird: Hell, with static libraries you only really need to think about build-time dependencies. 20:42:45 Not true. 20:42:47 pikhq, eh no 20:42:48 It can depend on binaries. 20:42:51 pikhq, scripting languages 20:42:53 bsmntbombdood: Single LCD panel, yes. 20:42:53 Mmm. Right. 20:42:55 like, say, python 20:42:59 and yeah, data packages 20:43:00 pikhq: And /share stuff. 20:43:01 like tzdata 20:43:04 yeah 20:43:19 Makes the problem significantly easier, though. 20:43:20 bsmntbombdood: Why? Do you have ~$4,000 plus the few hundred bucks needed for the card to drive it? 20:43:33 ehird: yeah 20:43:52 what 20:43:57 bsmntbombdood: Also, incredibly good eyesight? That thar pixel density be very high, good luck reading without forcing much larger fontts. 20:43:59 *fonts 20:44:01 * AnMaster bets ehird didn't expect that answer 20:44:05 Also, I'd like that 4 k$, plz. 20:44:26 AnMaster: Well he did just buy a $200 display... so yes, rather unexpected. 20:44:44 bsmntbombdood, what is your job? CEO? 20:44:46 It's more like 2 k$ nowadays anyway for a T221. 20:45:00 AnMaster: no, i just have a full time job and live with my parents 20:45:00 You need to be a CEO to have 4 k$? 20:45:02 shrug 20:45:07 all my income is disposable 20:45:52 If you do actually get a T221, that'd be beyond awesome. 20:46:16 http://www.harmony-central.com/Test/wilson/two.jpg 20:46:17 You need to be a CEO to have 4 k$? <-- no. But to have so much to *waste* and don't care, maybe 20:46:25 Just look at that real-estate on the right side. 20:46:39 ehird, what is the gamut of it? 20:46:45 And the Apple Cinema Display to the left is denser than most displays already! 20:46:46 AnMaster: How is it a waste? 20:46:50 The gamut is good for 2001. 20:46:54 It's a professional monitor, after all. 20:47:00 But jesus christ, look at the size of that text. 20:47:04 Definitely want to up the DPI settings... 20:47:17 ehird, well yes 20:47:23 Hey, and you definitely can't complain about subpixel colour fringing. 20:47:28 is that a apple cinema display on the side? 20:47:30 how large is it? 20:47:35 Yes. 23"? 20:47:37 i'm surprised 3840*2400 is all you can get 20:47:37 ah 20:47:42 especially at such a small size 20:47:47 Will be about 100 ppi. 20:47:50 ehird, that IBM monitor looks small. Maybe around 17" or so? 20:47:54 T221 is 204 ppi. 20:48:00 AnMaster: 22.2 inches 20:48:01 22.2" 20:48:07 Oh, the ACD must be 30" 20:48:13 ehird, ah that explains it 20:48:15 Anyway, it's larger than this display. 20:48:32 bsmntbombdood: But really, if you look at the text on http://www.harmony-central.com/Test/wilson/two.jpg, a lot of those pixels will go to waste foro text. 20:48:32 yeah but that is no imac 20:48:37 Still, the fractals will look nice. :P 20:48:52 ehird, so will text with proper DPI settings 20:48:55 True. 20:49:02 You can completely disable hinting. 20:49:06 ehird, also that high res concorde looks awesome 20:49:09 200 dpi is just too much 20:49:12 it will look soo life like 20:49:17 ehird, and antialias 20:49:18 :P 20:49:20 bsmntbombdood: No ppi is too much! 20:49:25 AnMaster: No, it's not quite that dense yet :P 20:49:27 "This is a revised model of the original T220. Notable improvements include using only one power adapter instead of two" 20:49:30 ehird, hm maybe 20:49:43 ehird, how much would be required for dropping AA? 20:49:44 You need ~600 ppi to give up antialiasing. 20:49:49 ah 20:49:50 Same as in print, really. 20:50:27 * AnMaster wants those desktop bgs though 20:50:28 An issue with the T221 is that doing awesome smooth 3D animations on it will be very hard on the graphics cards... (you need multiple) 20:50:34 Which is such a shame. 20:50:44 ehird, hahhah 20:50:47 bsmntbombdood: Oh, and the refresh rate sucks: 20:50:52 "The supported maximum refresh rates at native resolution depends on how many TMDS links are used. Single, double, and quad-link support 13, 25, 41 Hz refresh rates respectively. With reduced blanking periods single, double, and quad-TMDS-link can obtain 17.0, 33.72, and 41 Hz refresh. This model's internal refresh rate is always 41 Hz." 20:50:52 yeah, 41 hz 20:50:56 ehird, but wouldn't that 30" ACD require that too? 20:51:02 Only 41 Hz if you use four links. 20:51:06 = moar graphics cards 20:51:14 AnMaster: No. 20:51:22 Wikipedia has a messy "list of displays by pixel density" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density -- and admittedly the T220 with 204 ppi is the highest you can still call a "screen"; the rest are tiny device displays. 20:51:25 ehird, what is the DPI of it? 20:51:31 Like 100. 20:51:39 It's 20:51:41 ah 20:51:50 2560x1600 20:51:50 101.65 ppi 20:51:55 Consumer-level cards can drive that today 20:51:59 With two DVI links 20:52:02 eh 20:52:04 48 Hz 20:52:09 "The 9503-DG5 model had a native refresh rate of 48 Hz" 20:52:20 oh 20:52:22 "The IBM T221-DG5 was discontinued in June 2005." 20:52:23 Yeah, but good luck finding one of them on the market 20:52:28 All of them are discontinued 20:52:30 I believe 20:52:32 ouch 20:52:35 You want it used anyway 20:52:40 New, they're like $5,000 20:54:11 "The Viewsonic VP2290b-3 is a rebadged version of this monitor.[citation needed]" 20:54:12 hm 20:54:22 09:19:44 suing IBM is widely regarded to be an incredibly stupid move 20:54:22 No context required 20:54:25 AnMaster: it is true 20:54:37 ehird, still in production? 20:54:57 Who knows, who cares. Too expensive. Buy used. 20:55:38 ehird, anything like a 2D bitmap game would suck on it. But maybe scaling wouldn't look quite as bad as usual? 20:55:52 Scaling would look fine. 20:55:56 brb 20:55:57 Each pixel is so small that it'd look perfect. 20:56:03 No antialiasing required. 20:56:07 And you don't need more than one card if the card's good enough. (Admittedly all "good enough" cards I see in the local retailer's web page take up two slots and have four-digit prices, so...) 20:56:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:57:54 10:31:30 The sword alone can't stop! 20:57:54 THAT 20:58:47 10:36:36 fungot, *prod* 20:58:47 10:36:37 AnMaster: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... 20:58:47 ehird: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. 20:58:47 ehird: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! 20:58:47 <3 20:59:06 10:38:04 I think it's in the ocean palace, when you stick your stick into the mammon machine thing. 20:59:06 This channel is PG-13. 21:00:10 No, no, you misunderstand, it's this glowy red thing. 21:03:01 " ehird: [...] our only hope." <-- why did this make me thing of star wars 21:03:01 AnMaster: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!!! 21:03:20 fungot, you are confused about gender 21:03:20 AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. 21:03:46 "let's toast our land"? 21:03:51 Help me, Obi-Wan fungot, you are our only hope. 21:03:52 fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! 21:03:56 fizzie, ah 21:03:59 right 21:04:23 Apparently it was "my", not "our". But still. 21:04:30 yeah 21:04:58 ehird, you never played chrono trigger? 21:05:20 That PG-13 thing was a joke. But no. 21:05:26 right 21:05:28 I do believe you didn't either until you asked fizzie what ct was. :P 21:05:32 ehird, well worth it 21:05:36 ehird, indeed that is correct 21:07:48 I've played Chrono Trigger... and Chrono Cross 21:09:09 I wonder if you can ditch /etc/hostname and just get the hostname from /etc/hosts. 21:10:33 Generally the init system uses sethostname(), I guess. 21:10:48 The file itself is pretty superfluous, since the "gethostname" library function gets it from the kernel; as far as I know, the file's just used to sethostname on startup at some point. 21:14:00 Speaking of the host name, for some reason it annoys me when OS X automagically fiddles with the host name when I connect to interwebs via different wlans or gprsies. Makes the prompt all ugly. (Maybe I should just stick a fixed string in the prompt, though.) 21:15:43 * ehird tries to compile NetBSD's coreutil-type things on OS X 21:15:59 fizzie: Doesn't do that for me. 21:16:00 You can set the hostname, you know. 21:16:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 21:16:23 [~]$ grep -r Bournemouth /etc 21:16:34 /etc/hostconfig:HOSTNAME=Bournemouth 21:16:36 Yes, it's "going away", whatever 21:16:53 Then sudo hostname Bournemouth to kick it off, I guess 21:17:44 Fiddling with configuration files? How very not OS Xy. (I think I've set the "computer name" thing from the settings dialogs somewhere, though I can't be sure there's no hostname-setting somewhere in the networking setups.) 21:17:59 I think the GUI edits that 21:17:59 But whatever 21:18:32 Anyway, then I'll just do sethostname(lookupdnswhateverthecurrentflavourofthemonthis("127.0.0.1")) 21:19:07 Looks like I'll be writing my own init 21:19:30 Can't be hard, can it 21:19:36 Kernel's done all that pesky booting and all 21:22:30 I wish I had an ext2 driver for OS X that can mount loopbacks. 21:23:47 I don't know anything about OS X's ext2 drivers, but if they are sensible enough, one would think that you could be able to just attach images with hdiutil. 21:24:06 "Raw disk images from other operating systems (e.g. .iso files) will be recognized as disk images and can be attached and mounted if OS X recognizes the filesystems." Well, I guess that depends. 21:24:31 They don't actually exist, though. 21:24:44 There isn't an ext2 driver that works in 10.5 as far as I can tell. 21:24:50 Also, it's literally an .ext2 21:24:55 Oh, great ... http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/bin/?only_with_tag=MAIN 21:25:00 All split up 21:25:04 http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/usr.bin/?only_with_tag=MAIN 21:25:05 I wonder if you can ditch /etc/hostname and just get the hostname from /etc/hosts. <-- at least gentoo doesn't use /etc/hostname 21:25:07 And even moreso 21:25:41 I guess weeding out the actual core utilities, getting them to build on Linux, and then working from that codebase is the thing to do 21:27:20 Groan, I've forgotten how to use CVS. 21:27:30 ehird, XD 21:27:39 so have I mostly 21:27:58 You have to do some kind of stupid login procedure that it somehow remembers the next command, don't you? 21:28:07 ehird, eh? 21:28:13 Like 21:28:19 cvs login anonymous blah blah blahh 21:28:20 cvs checkout blah blah blah 21:28:28 sounds familiar 21:28:39 And it's really weird that it, you know, remembers your login the next command 21:28:42 Someone says ext2fsx's debug build works on Intel 10.5; nothing works on 10.6, though, and ext2fsx isn't the most trustworthy-looking piece of software there is. (sf.net "helpful review" #2: "Thanks for ruining my data. My drive is completely hosed.") 21:28:48 ehird, I think it is stored in $HOME/.cvspass 21:28:50 though 21:28:56 fizzie: Yeah, I saw that. 21:28:57 rather than "remember to next command" only 21:29:14 AnMaster: Still. 21:29:51 ehird, svn stores login stuff somewhere too. All VCS has to store stuff like push/pull/whatever urls and such 21:30:02 well, all network enabled ones 21:30:32 Yes, but the way it's "logging in" with CVS is weird. 21:30:41 that's true 21:30:53 It's not "hey, remember my server details", it's modelled as "log in to the server, check out, and forget about it" 21:30:54 Oh, I've found the CVS separate-login-step strange too. It's a weird place to split the checkout/"clone" operation at. 21:30:56 cat $HOME/.cvsrc 21:30:56 cvs -z3 -q 21:30:56 diff -up 21:30:56 update -dP 21:30:56 checkout -P 21:30:57 rdiff -u 21:31:01 * AnMaster isn't sure what that means 21:31:05 looks relevant though 21:31:06 Groan, cvs directories everywhere 21:31:22 [~/Junk]$ mkdir bin; cd bin; CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.NetBSD.org:/cvsroot cvs checkout -P src/bin 21:31:25 Worked for me, FWIW 21:31:28 Without a login step 21:31:40 ehird, setting CVSROOT? 21:31:44 huh 21:31:56 And it hasn't remembered anything; good 21:31:56 Yeah. 21:32:00 #$NetBSD: Makefile,v 1.22 2007/12/31 15:31:24 ad Exp $ 21:32:00 #@(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93 21:32:00 SUBDIR=cat chio chmod cp csh date dd df domainname echo ed expr hostname \ 21:32:01 kill ksh ln ls mkdir mt mv pax ps pwd rcp rcmd rm rmdir sh \ 21:32:01 sleep stty sync test 21:32:01 .include 21:32:03 Oh fuck you 21:32:08 I'm not downloading your whole build infrastructure :P 21:32:20 #$NetBSD: Makefile,v 1.12 2003/05/18 07:57:31 lukem Exp $ 21:32:21 #@(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93 21:32:21 PROG=cat 21:32:21 .include 21:32:24 Nice Makefile, you cocks. 21:32:27 stuff like: 21:32:31 /1 :pserver:anonymous@jsbsim.cvs.sourceforge.net:2401/cvsroot/jsbsim A 21:32:33 in cvspass 21:32:35 At least OS X has bsdmake. 21:32:38 (no that is no secret one) 21:32:52 (and I doubt anyone here is interested in jsbsim :P) 21:32:55 ===> cat (all) 21:32:55 "/Users/ehird/Junk/bin/src/bin/cat/../Makefile.inc", line 9: Malformed conditional ((${MKDYNAMICROOT} == "no")) 21:32:55 "/usr/share/mk/bsd.init.mk", line 15: if-less endif 21:32:55 bsdmake: fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue 21:32:55 *** Error code 1 21:32:57 That's what my ~/.cvspass looks like too; four repositories, all have just "A" (for "anonymous"?) as the secret. 21:33:04 Oookay, my bsdmake has thingies. 21:33:09 fizzie, there is some other one 21:33:09 That it wants. 21:33:12 also anon 21:33:14 Then who was invalid error? 21:33:18 /1 :pserver:cvsguest@cvs.flightgear.org:2401/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 AIbdZ, 21:33:31 ehird, it probably needs the whole build tree? 21:33:33 just a guess 21:33:39 AnMaster: No, I have that /usr/share/mk file. 21:33:43 Which is weird. 21:33:51 is that on OS X? 21:33:51 I guess it needs to be NetBSD's for some reason. 21:33:51 But. 21:33:54 why syntax error? 21:34:03 ehird, good question 21:34:05 OS X shipping with a bsdmake file that its bsdmake trips over on 21:34:07 very odd 21:34:21 hm 21:34:26 * ehird compiles cat manually 21:34:37 Good code, incidentally. 21:34:44 Apart from the mass of indentation. 21:34:57 It reaches 7 levels of indentation. 21:35:04 Function, for, if, if, if, and line continuation. 21:35:23 Erm. 21:35:25 I missed an if. 21:35:31 Function, for, if, if, if, if, line continuation. 21:35:55 [~/Junk/bin/src/bin/cat]$ ./cat -? 21:35:55 ./cat: illegal option -- ? 21:35:55 usage: cat [-beflnstuv] [-] [file ...] 21:36:05 ehird, about cat. I met someone mad recently 21:36:05 Oh dear, it has cat -v :-P 21:36:13 Who? 21:36:14 A cat? 21:36:25 ehird, no. Someone who claimed that a cat that didn't try to use mmap() when possible was basically shit 21:36:34 lol 21:36:46 Crazy architects 21:36:52 (falling back on read() when mmap wasn't supported and/or the file didn't handle it, say, char device, standard input or such) 21:37:12 Methinks csh will not be part of my core utilities. 21:37:16 ehird, tell me, does that netbsd cat properly support -u? 21:37:20 or is it just a stub 21:37:25 that is the only POSIX option for cat 21:37:28 -u The -u option guarantees that the output is unbuffered. 21:37:34 ehird, does it work? 21:37:34 It may guarantee it by, say, doing nothing. 21:37:38 Who knows? 21:37:50 Anyway, mmf. I'd prefer it had no options at all. 21:37:51 ehird, freebsd one and gnu one doesn't do what you would epect 21:37:52 expcet* 21:37:54 Then again, compatibility is king... 21:37:55 expect* 21:37:57 gah 21:38:04 Most BSD utilities are almost identical. 21:38:30 ehird, cat -e is like the only one I ever use. Not sure if *bsd cat -e is same as gnu cat -e 21:38:37 [~/Junk/bin/src/bin/cp]$ cc cp.c utils.c -o cp 21:38:37 Love how simple it is to compile 21:38:45 AnMaster: -e and -v are evil. 21:38:50 ehird, -v doing? 21:38:52 * AnMaster forgot 21:38:58 ehird, and -e is useful 21:39:08 -e and -v are useful, but evil. 21:39:12 -e is -v with printing endlines. 21:39:19 right 21:39:20 "cat came back from Berkeley waving flags" — Rob Pike 21:39:31 but yeah, those doesn't belong in cat 21:39:35 cat should concatenate files; formatting them is outside its scope 21:39:37 probably should be od or something like that 21:39:46 It should be scrub 21:39:48 or some other nice name 21:39:50 Small utilities. 21:39:58 ehird, scrub doesn't seem relevant here 21:40:01 scrub for -v, scrub -n for newlines 21:40:03 AnMaster: I made it up. 21:40:10 ehird, I meant the name 21:40:15 I know of no such tool 21:40:17 It scrubs unprintables. 21:40:24 scrub == cat -v; scrub -n == cat -e 21:40:29 ehird, converts them to other chars instead 21:40:29 Small utilities that do one thing. That's Unix. 21:40:33 Whatever. 21:40:46 Come up with a better name. 21:40:51 ehird, scurb should probably have a "just remove, not replace" option then 21:40:58 But it shouldn't go in od, either, because that's a kitchen sink. 21:41:05 ehird, oh and "unprintable". Clearly this needs to be locale and encoding aware 21:41:12 Scurb xD 21:41:13 AnMaster: DIE, FOUL DEMON! 21:41:15 since in an UTF-8 locale it would differ 21:41:21 ehird, I was joking 21:41:29 Bringer of death and destruction! 21:41:29 I know 21:41:29 So was I 21:41:48 ehird, it should scrub the £ symbol btw 21:41:56 Filthy mercans. 21:42:04 XD 21:42:09 Wait. 21:42:09 Um. 21:42:12 Filthy non-mercans. 21:42:13 I am dum helo 21:42:19 ehird, I know that 21:45:04 * ehird compiles NetBSD's csh for shits and giggles 21:45:11 This is kinda pointless, I am, after all, on a BSD 21:45:22 Still, it'll probably all run on Linux. 21:45:38 csh is gross in more than usage; oh its code 21:46:19 Yikes. csh doesn't build. Uh. Good. 21:49:31 I wish X wasn't so mandatory. 21:50:21 ("The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't do anything for you." — Ken Thompson :P) 21:53:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:55:17 ehird, hm I guess openoffice actually *does* something for you then 21:55:35 Does rape count as doing something *for* you? 21:55:44 It's a good question... 21:56:08 ehird, use NeWS? 21:56:14 Methinks not. 21:56:40 maybe it isn't open source? 21:57:13 It doesn't run on Linux, for one; it isn't open source, for one; it's unmaintained, for one; it doesn't support modern hardware, for one; it isn't backwards-compatible with X, for one. 21:57:44 ehird, what is your opinion on gnustep? 21:58:14 OS X's unpopular predecessor without the decent architecture? Maintained by GNU idiots? 21:58:19 I 21:58:19 CAN 21:58:19 HARDLY 21:58:19 CONTAIN 21:58:19 MY 21:58:24 EXCITEMENT 21:58:29 ah 21:59:37 -!- fax has joined. 22:00:46 Wonder what distro and what hardware I should use to bootstrap. 22:02:53 Oh, god, there is a site called "boycottboycottnovell.com" 22:02:55 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:02:57 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:58 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:03:02 -!- ehird has joined. 22:03:04 — oops — 22:05:49 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:05:54 -!- ehird has joined. 22:05:55 fungot: style 22:05:56 fax: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! 22:05:58 FFS 22:06:02 fungot: style 22:06:02 fax: the knight spirit has the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the hero! hurrah to the 22:06:07 * ehird stabs fax 22:06:09 hurrah to the hero! 22:06:18 Hurrah to the hero that sword alone can't stop. 22:09:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:09:18 "boycottboycottnovell.com" <-- huh 22:10:22 boycottboycottboycottrecursion.com 22:11:01 endorseendorseendorseendorserecursion.com 22:11:26 oerjan, iwc 22:11:34 fizzie, that was a new one I think 22:11:36 read it hours ago (TM) 22:11:38 not the sword this time 22:11:40 oerjan, same 22:11:49 oerjan, *tries to remember which theme it was* 22:11:56 balrogs 22:11:59 oh right 22:12:03 that is no theme though 22:12:12 not _yet_... 22:12:20 oerjan, you think it might? 22:12:20 but if steve summons enough of them... 22:13:11 they and cthulhu should form AAAS 22:13:22 AAAS? 22:13:30 Ancient Abominations Against Steve 22:13:54 actually make that AAAAAS 22:13:59 Maybe I should finally give Gentoo a try... 22:14:03 Ancient Abominations And Alligators Against Steve 22:14:10 But, ugh, what a waste of time. 22:15:23 ehird, wait, you never tried it? 22:15:29 yet said it was so bad 22:15:44 unehirdic 22:16:07 Yeah, unless Gentoo somehow subverts logic and reason — or everyone who has said anything about Gentoo that I've read lied — I deducted that it is bad. 22:16:08 ehird, also I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it. Too many options 22:16:23 I hope you are joking. 22:16:27 ehird, as in, you have three cron implementations to choose from in the standard distro 22:16:37 Regardless, I'd bother trying it if it wasn't for the whole "LOL 24 HOUR INSTALL PROCESS" 22:16:42 several dhcp clients 22:16:48 "Look at the massive size of our source-based ecocks" 22:16:49 which one is your choice 22:17:00 ehird, 24 hour to what 22:17:01 AnMaster: The simplest and smallest! 22:17:14 ehird, ah you want to turn off most useflags then 22:17:24 hurrah to the hero! 22:17:35 needless to say I have more than usual ammount 22:17:45 USE="3dnow acpi ccache sse sse2 pic nptl glep -gnome mmx pcre unicode objc bash-completion acl 3dnowext caps emacs cairo logrotate vorbis jpeg2k openexr fontconfig mozdevelop nsplugin ieee1394 lm_sensors fbcon dvdr sndfile javascript -java mysqli iconv gmp bzip2 exif cdb gd curl ogg truetype gdbm expat flac mad audiofile mng lcms idn dri mono scanner sqlite ppds -eds tcl tk nptlonly -ldap usb foomatic 22:17:45 db tiff -esd -oss xpm -hal imlib -xml utempter idea mbox pdf mmxext physfs qt3support ipv6 xcomposite -kerberos kqemu zsh-completion gnutls iproute2 joystick dbus rle -apache2 fastcgi kdehiddenvisibility kdeenablefinal nodrm lyx loop-aes -arts geoip -branding -libnotify mmap -mysql webdav-serf sasl -bluetooth -openmp cddb pg-intdatetime -accessibility -ssse3 -consolekit -php" 22:17:51 hm 22:18:05 AnMaster: did you have to do that just as i was about to chastise fax for spamming 22:18:08 weird line breaking 22:18:23 oerjan, how should I know 22:18:29 have known* 22:18:39 oerjan, and it was two lines 22:18:50 not more 22:18:59 AnMaster: telepathy 22:19:00 it was two lines nobody really cares about 22:19:00 also, -libnotify? why? 22:19:01 ehird, that is just the global use flags 22:19:12 ehird, there are package specific ones in another file 22:19:21 like category/package foo -bar 22:19:23 and such 22:19:32 optionally with version specs 22:19:41 oerjan what the hell are you talking about 22:19:44 like >=whatever/gcc-4.3 22:19:45 or such 22:19:54 * pikhq wonders if Gentoo still supports using uclibc... 22:19:56 hmm, i should write a libnotify client/server/whatever thing that uses dwm's status 22:20:06 ehird, I didn't see the point of libnotify 22:20:11 what good does it do? 22:20:17 fax: hurrah to the hero! 22:20:25 NO 22:20:31 also, i was joking :D 22:20:34 Oh, god. A 2005.1 profile? 22:20:37 Lets you know when you have been emailed / IMed / name mentioned on IRC. 22:20:38 I'm going to say "no". 22:20:43 pikhq, I agree 22:20:46 tbh I'll probably bootstrap from arc 22:20:48 arch 22:20:54 pikhq, I remember back before eselect 22:20:59 was wonderful 22:21:07 * AnMaster never really liked eselect 22:21:23 * pikhq finds eselect tolerable, but would something better. 22:21:42 pikhq, the old manual way? 22:21:55 but yes it is tolerable 22:22:11 a bit slow, always wonder how they managed that 22:22:18 It's a shell script. 22:22:25 pikhq, not python? 22:22:33 * pikhq nods 22:22:35 huh 22:22:59 pikhq, opinion on pkgcore? And on paludis (spelling?) 22:23:39 Never tried either. 22:24:11 pikhq, paludis depends on boost you know? And is written (from what I have heard) in rather bad style. As in "worst of C++" 22:24:17 fungot: style 22:24:17 fax: you! take! we find! that sword alone can't stop, crono! are you leaving! 22:24:20 pkgcore is quite nice 22:24:32 fungot, I'm not 22:24:33 AnMaster: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! are you leaving! 22:24:34 what's the most esoteric language 22:24:36 ? 22:24:36 You know that boost makes using C++ not make you want to kill yourself too much, right? 22:24:40 At least if you're good at self-delusion. 22:24:42 fax, mu 22:24:45 Sure, internally... but... 22:25:13 ehird, well, sure, but a package manager depending on something so prone to ABI breakage 22:25:22 and, well, it is unclean in other parts 22:25:35 ABI breakage! Hooray, static binaries. 22:25:42 Not that Portage is much better, AnMaster. It uses Python... 22:25:46 oh and the main dev is quite... rude against everyone who disagrees with him 22:25:58 Static binaries — never worry about your package manager being broken! 22:25:59 pikhq, true, but generally that breaks less 22:26:06 True. 22:26:15 ehird, arch used to have pacman.static but iirc it was dropped 22:28:04 Heck, you can even manage your packages from a linux boot floppy. :P 22:28:13 By which I mean a really pathological one. 22:28:17 Otherwise that's nothing special. 22:29:00 IDEA: Statically link the kernel into every binary! 22:29:06 wait, what? 22:29:14 that would only work if you could easily hotswap kernels 22:29:15 or create VMs 22:29:17 Hurrah, hurrah. (It's a combination of "Hurrah to the Hero and Guardia!" and "Peace at last, thanks to the Hero! Hurrah for the Hero! Hurrah for Guardia!".) 22:29:24 heh, every binary in its own VM would be decent for security 22:29:57 ais523: Total portability, though! 22:30:09 The Perl script again doesn't get stuck in a loop: http://pastebin.com/m73626919 22:30:10 And would actually work tolerably on a non-x86 system. 22:30:13 ais523, a bit of pain for usability 22:30:15 no, because you'd need some OS-independent way to run the kernels 22:30:21 what with pipes? 22:30:26 clearly, you need to compile the bootloader in too 22:30:27 s/with/about/ 22:30:35 ais523, multiboot? 22:30:44 ais523: And the CPU microcode. 22:30:49 And the CPU microcode interpreter. 22:30:56 ais523, you would need an universal binary to support different platforms 22:30:58 AnMaster: multiboot as in simultaneous multiple boot 22:31:02 ehird: and the VHDL for the hardware 22:31:03 -!- Oranjer has joined. 22:31:05 AnMaster: No. 22:31:07 ais523, no 22:31:08 AnMaster: You just include the hardware. 22:31:08 well, or the Verilog 22:31:14 ais523: and the VHDL emulator 22:31:19 hahaha 22:31:20 which is a linux binary 22:31:22 GO REPEAT 22:31:24 ais523, RECURSION DETECTED 22:31:25 err 22:31:27 infinitely sized! 22:31:27 ehird, ^ 22:31:33 Stack overflow. 22:31:37 ehird, don't give GNU ideas 22:31:42 you get your computer to build new computers to run the applications on 22:31:56 incidentally, this conversation is a good reflection on Feather 22:31:56 ais523, rep-comp? 22:32:07 like reprap for computers 22:32:15 AnMaster: pretty much 22:32:29 ais523, how is it a good reflection on Feather? 22:32:45 AnMaster: the infinite regress of emulation layers 22:32:48 Feather manages to simulate that 22:32:56 ais523, ah yes 22:33:00 by retroactively adding more stages to the regress whenever they'd ever become relevant 22:33:05 "hurrah to the hero, he might be the one to bring forth an immense evil... ...humans make them that way." 22:33:22 ais523, any progress btw? 22:33:42 fizzie, eh? 22:33:48 AnMaster: no, busy preparing for devnull 22:33:52 are you planning to play? 22:33:59 ais523, no 22:34:03 why not? 22:34:04 hurrah to the hero! 22:34:06 ais523, exams coming up 22:34:21 well no. But major tests 22:34:24 in various modules 22:34:30 devnull? Rings a bell. 22:34:31 final tests in those modules 22:34:40 ehird, NH tournament 22:35:17 ais523, plus I never liked playing against people 22:35:22 ehird: NetHack tournament 22:35:26 ais523, as in, I much prefer single player 22:35:31 ais523, I already told him... 22:35:38 and that much lag is implausible 22:35:42 it thinks it's the longest-running Internet gaming tournament in existence, and nobody has sent it a counterexample yet 22:35:49 How long? 22:35:55 Also, it thinks nothing. 22:35:59 ais523, counterexample of what? 22:36:03 * ais523 checks 22:36:23 /dev/null has been holding an annual NetHack Tournament, beginning at midnight on Halloween, since 1999. This appears to make /dev/null/nethack the longest running gaming tournament on the Internet; folks who've looked into this have told us that they've found two other tournaments claiming this title, one at 6 years old and the other at 4 years old (as of the summer of 2008), so this may very well be the case. 22:36:24 AnMaster: ... 22:36:42 ais523, oh should that be "sent in" rather than "sent it"? 22:36:50 "it thinks it's" 22:36:55 ais is anthropomorphising it. 22:36:58 AnMaster: I was anthropomorphising inappropriately 22:37:00 ehird, oh 22:37:01 ais523: well, it certainly isn't the oldest, and it certainly isn't the one with the most games played 22:37:01 right 22:37:10 AnMaster: don't worry, it's very awkward and confusing to me too 22:37:32 ehird: what older one do you know of? 22:37:38 I'm sure they'd be happy to find a counterexample 22:37:40 Um, since 1999? 22:37:53 Of course people have organised tournaments before that. 22:37:58 They might not still exist, though. 22:38:00 yes 22:38:16 ehird, the point is not when, but for how long 22:38:21 e.g. Quake II tournaments have almost certainly been organised before 1999; I don't know if any still exist 22:38:24 I know that. 22:38:33 [21:37] ehird: ais523: well, it certainly isn't the oldest, and it certainly isn't the one with the most games played 22:38:34 See? 22:38:44 I was saying that it only has a chance of winning in one metric. 22:38:49 aha 22:38:50 ehird, true 22:38:57 but that was the relevant metric for this discussion 22:39:12 I was just noting. 22:39:42 * AnMaster wants a T221. 22:39:51 * AnMaster realises he would need a new computer to handle it 22:40:12 since I doubt I could fit in high end enough graphics card 22:40:53 Got PCI-e 16x? 22:41:04 ehird, this has AGP :P 22:41:14 Well, AGP was the thing when the T221 was around... 22:41:18 I think. 22:41:30 geforce 7600 22:41:52 Anyway... get two Radeon 5870s... shit iwll scream. 22:41:54 *will 22:42:01 (And a new computer to fit them :P) 22:42:24 ehird, yeah I bust my budget at the screen alone already 22:42:38 Yeah. 22:43:08 oh well, one can always dream I guess... 22:43:13 5870 costs about $400 22:43:33 So I'd say $3,300 total expense could get you two of them and a T221. 22:47:02 No T221s seem to be for sale on the int'webs. 22:48:36 what is a T221? 22:48:46 Very high-resolution display, IBM, circa 2001. 22:49:01 22.2", 3840x2400. 22:49:04 Comes to 204 ppi. 22:49:05 aha 22:49:17 If you're lucky, you can get 41 Hz refresh out of it. 22:49:19 (It's an LCD) 22:49:33 Less DVI links? 13 Hz. 22:49:45 (13, 25, 41 for single, double and quad DVI links) 22:50:04 48 Hz for one model 22:50:15 Well, yeah, but that one's hard to get. 22:50:22 ehird, I can imagine 22:50:23 Like, I don't know if anyone had it. 22:50:25 Well. 22:50:26 Actually. 22:50:30 Reading it again, it would be easy. 22:50:33 Since it's just a regular update. 22:50:36 hm 22:50:38 So 48 Hz, pretty good. But still. 22:50:49 That's 48 fps max. 22:50:52 ehird, my normal TFT runs at 60 Hz iirc 22:51:05 All do. 22:51:11 Well, apart from this oddball. 22:51:11 48 Hz is better than TV still 22:51:16 "On 19 March 2002, IBM announced lowering the price of IBM T221 from US$17,999 to US$8,399." 22:51:31 So the guy who got it for $2,500 in 2004 is one lucky fucker. 22:52:15 who? 22:53:08 http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/topping/archives/000856_life_with_the_ibm_t221.html 22:53:35 http://codehaus.org/~topping/screen.JPG 22:53:37 is a screenshot of his work space 22:53:42 Notable is that TINY FONT in Eclipse. 22:53:51 Wait, not Eclipse. 22:53:51 Some IDE, anyway. 22:53:55 Ah, IDEA. 22:54:32 Oh, he got it for $3,000 22:54:35 And it was a DG3 22:55:05 "I typically run by day it at max resolution, and by night, reconfigure it to 1920x1200. This is basically uses a 2x2 square of native screen for every image pixel and is a more standard resolution at about 100dpi (good for tired eyes!)" 22:55:07 Hey, clever. 22:55:10 You could use that to play games. 22:55:22 Good res for such a smooth scaling. 22:55:37 But yeah: Ow, tiny! 22:55:40 -!- augur has joined. 23:05:40 and augur kills the channel again 23:06:07 (hi) 23:06:21 ha 23:06:40 Hardware should be illegal! 23:07:07 :O 23:07:15 what do you mean? 23:07:17 to own? 23:07:22 WHO 23:07:23 KNOWS 23:07:27 okay 23:07:41 ps ais523 http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/TabsSpacesBoth.png 23:07:56 ehird: and that's on emacswiki? 23:07:56 if we're in the matrix, and the matrix is recursive, then maybe there is no hardware 23:08:02 tell emacs not to use tabs and spaces by default 23:08:06 if you feel that way 23:08:07 *mix 23:08:24 ais523: that doesn't fix other people's code. 23:08:46 It's on the page where they tell you how to configure it to use tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. (At least; it might be on other pages too.) 23:08:59 it's virtuals all the way up! 23:09:03 oerjan, how could the matrix be recursive? 23:09:05 Which isn't the same as indenting with both. 23:09:22 (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SmartTabs, that is.) 23:09:23 Oranjer: by being simulated on another matrix, duh 23:09:33 that's not recursive 23:09:41 that's merely nested, perhaps infinitely 23:09:59 fizzie: ais523's reply to that is "tabs are 8 spaces wide always because i said so also everybody thinks this way so there" 23:10:00 um... 23:10:08 maybe it's corecursive instea 23:10:09 *d 23:10:21 I thought you meant "recursive" as "matrix A contains matrix B, matrix B contains matrix A" 23:11:02 um no, and recursion doesn't have to be identical levels 23:11:19 fac n = n * fac (n-1) never repeats an n between levels 23:11:21 well, there could be any number of matrixes between them 23:11:26 fac? 23:11:34 ... 23:11:35 factorial 23:11:36 factorial, sheesh 23:11:39 oh, ha! 23:11:53 (and i know i'm leaving out the base case) 23:12:00 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:12:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:12:29 "Rotate your widescreen 90 degrees." fuck people who say this, i can't do that :< 23:12:45 well then, oerjan, what do you mean by recursive matrices? 23:13:24 Oranjer: i think corecursive fits my intuition better, actually. each matrix is simulated inside another, infinitely. 23:13:30 fractal 23:13:43 infinitely? 23:13:44 It's on the page where they tell you how to configure it to use tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. (At least; it might be on other pages too.) <-- That is The Right Way 23:13:53 there's no "reality" that the first matrix is in? 23:14:02 Oranjer: you are having real troubles with his joke 23:14:08 anyway sure there is PER MODAL REALISM 23:14:11 there is no first matrix 23:14:25 AnMaster: Yes, but it's a bitch because of idiots in any language but c. 23:14:31 *C, whatever 23:14:43 "because of idiots in any language but c"? 23:14:50 ...this is a joke? 23:15:02 unless you count from the lowest level, where we are (unless our universe contains a matrix for another somewhere, which might be possible) 23:15:29 hm then it could be infinite both ways 23:15:31 AnMaster: protip: if the nesting seems strange, PARSE IT AGAIN 23:16:03 I presumed that's what you meant by infinite 23:16:11 also, it reminds me of this short story: http://qntm.org.nyud.net:8090/?responsibility 23:16:19 ehird, i seemed sane. Just unehirdic ;P 23:16:21 nyud.net? seriously/ 23:16:22 *? 23:16:24 anyway no I can't figure it out 23:16:27 ehird, try commas? 23:16:43 AnMaster: no, it's more fun having you trying to figure it out 23:16:52 URL without nyud: http://qntm.org/?responsibility 23:16:58 (bitch because of idiots)? 23:17:00 ehird, your loss 23:17:10 Nope, I've lost nothing 23:17:25 oh, okay 23:17:29 ehird, yes you did. Someone stole that while you were looking the other way! 23:17:40 Buddhism, man! 23:17:47 1. Reincarnation, fucker 23:17:47 2. NO DESIRES, FUCKER 23:17:50 3. Fucker, fucker 23:18:04 Buddhism is awesome because you can cheat at it! 23:18:12 Just never become enlightened, ever, and you'll be reincarnated eternally. 23:18:35 -!- Pthing has joined. 23:19:17 AnMaster: hey i was remembering that story too 23:19:22 ehird, I think you can be even when enlightened. Look at Dalai Lama 23:19:26 AnMaster didnt point to it 23:19:28 *didn't 23:19:28 er, * Oranjer 23:19:33 oerjan, what story? 23:19:36 AnMaster: What about him? 23:19:41 ehird: how's that cheating? 23:19:45 http://qntm.org/?responsibility 23:19:49 In religious terms, the Dalai Lama is believed by his devotees to be the rebirth of a long line of tulkus, who have chosen to be reborn in order to enlighten others 23:19:53 the lama isn't enlightened, therefore 23:20:00 presumably, just close 23:20:17 oklopol: because the cycle is painted as suffering; you're meant to become enlightened, where you die the typical atheist no-more-you death 23:20:28 ehird, pretty sure enlightenment is like god mode (light edition) or such :P 23:20:28 well, rather, if you're enlightened when you die 23:20:35 Wrong. 23:20:51 If you're enlightened, and you die, that's it, dead. 23:21:22 ehird, source? 23:21:23 nirvana! whoooo 23:21:51 http://shii.org/afterlife which, while old and inaccurate for other religions, was written by a Buddhist. 23:22:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra 23:22:07 Samsara 23:22:18 it's the Buddhist concept of the cycle of life, death, etc. 23:22:21 So, cheating at Buddhism = FUCK YEAH! Reincarnation! 23:22:31 um 23:22:38 I'm being silly, Oranjer. 23:22:41 Heed this. 23:22:43 oh, okay 23:22:58 * oerjan notes that MaxChaplin in the comments thought of the same solution as he did 23:24:17 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:24:35 oerjan, oerjan, what story? 23:24:39 still waiting for reply 23:24:45 ... 23:24:47 He meant to target Oranjer. 23:24:54 ah 23:24:55 Or perhaps I, who decrufted his link. 23:25:06 http://qntm.org/?responsibility 23:25:13 there ya go AnMaster 23:27:04 Sam Hughes is amazing. 23:27:13 uh-huh 23:28:26 2009-07-31 12:19:56 by Sam: 23:28:26 I don't know what you people are talking about. There is a top reality. Because I say so. It's my story. 23:28:26 xD 23:28:28 Oranjer: sam hughes = qntm.org 23:28:41 okay, I just found that out with google 23:34:57 http://www.podtycoon.com/shutdown/ 23:35:01 Captivating. 23:35:42 I almost wished it were true. 23:36:20 I actually had the theory that we were living in a documentary about the real Bush's life 23:36:29 Stop it! 23:36:32 Go back to the page. 23:36:33 SORRY 23:36:36 Or you'll be randomly assigned. 23:36:41 :O 23:36:52 Shut up, you fool! Go back! 23:36:54 No words! 23:40:03 "A Formalization of Darcs Patch Theory Using Inverse Semigroups" 23:40:05 Finally! 23:42:22 ehird, done it. Selected online 23:42:26 night ↑ 23:42:28 Me too. 23:42:41 There'd be an opportunity to argue for AI rights later. 23:42:48 And it leaves the possibility of virtual simulations. 23:42:59 Plus it's the only option which lets you contact the real world. 23:45:35 It is the most popularest thing. Though I have to wonder: why Finland? 23:45:48 hey, I also selected Online! 23:45:49 Maybe the author lives there. 23:45:57 Poof! 23:46:02 Not according to his life-story page; http://www.fordfam.com/matthew/matthew_life.html 23:46:11 fizzie: Stalker. 23:46:21 It's a reflex. 23:46:21 Anyway, because it's a techno-ish country? 23:46:23 I must not have been an AC. It just said "Poof!" 23:46:33 Maybe that's it. 23:46:37 Online is basically the best idea. 23:46:37 Sgeo: Just wait— 23:46:40 I guess that's what it does for bots, to keep them thinking it's a joke 23:46:41 It will redirect, and you're— 23:46:47 Bots can't think. 23:46:50 fungot: What did you pick? 23:46:50 fizzie: frog will do. that frog's hand! you got the broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?! well, remember that you can log in anywhere on the world map! need a brief weapons and items seminar? 23:46:53 Oh, wait. 23:46:55 Sgeo must be a bot now. 23:46:58 I don't think there was a "frog" option. 23:47:09 It must have stayed at Poof!, instead of waiting a second or two and it happening. 23:47:32 are we all bots now? 23:47:37 Online is the best option, although if you just want infinite bliss, dream or an appropriate religion's afterlife is good. 23:47:43 Oranjer: Don't be silly! 23:47:47 :( 23:47:49 :O 23:47:53 Of course we're not. You can hear me, right? 23:47:59 The page is clearly just a joke. Pretty stupid one too. 23:48:00 but am I "me"? 23:48:03 :O 23:48:03 Why are we wasting our time on this? 23:48:10 because you linked it 23:48:16 Come on, it's retarded! Like a futurist's wet dream! HURFDURF 23:48:21 -!- coppro has joined. 23:48:22 Yeah, I was linking to it because it's REEEEEEEETAAAAAAARDEEEEEEEEEEED 23:48:23 I think ehird's bot is acting the way it thinks ehird would pretend to be a bot 23:48:25 because you're a bot tasked with finding the rest of the AC's!!! 23:48:27 :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 23:48:35 "thinks" 23:48:39 heh 23:48:59 "The bots are programmed to mock it" is so stupid because it DEFLECTS REAL CRITICISM; like YOUR MOM WOULD. 23:48:59 Huuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 23:49:15 And, furthermore, "And, furthermore, "And, furthermore, "Stack overflow 23:49:16 Core dumped 23:49:48 hahahaha 23:50:16 "the devil put the fossils in the ground, and constructed the pre-christian religions" 23:50:19 :OOOOO 23:50:32 Say it ain't so, preacha! 23:50:34 What 23:50:39 Erm 23:50:39 Ignore me 23:50:39 I'm crashed 23:50:40 A CRASHED BOT 23:50:44 nooo ehird 23:50:51 I don't believe bots aren't real people 23:50:59 yeah, I said it! 23:51:06 I'm pro-bot 23:51:07 Why do you think I don't believe bots aren't real people? 23:51:07 ha 23:51:15 What makes you feel like ha? 23:51:27 what no 23:51:35 I never said anything about your opinion on bots 23:51:37 only my own 23:51:49 Can you elaborate on I never said anything about your opinion on bots? 23:51:52 the "nooo ehird" was "oh no ehird you're a bot" 23:52:07 I'll do the talking here. 23:52:22 you asked me why I thought you don't believe bots aren't real people, and I responded by saying that I never said such a thing 23:52:39 Why do you think you feel you asked me why I thought you don't believe bots aren't real people, and I responded by saying that I never said such a thing? 23:52:58 ehird's been replaced with ELIZA 23:53:01 hahaha 23:53:10 Why do you think that ehird's been replaced with ELIZA? Something from your childhood? 23:53:16 ahhh 23:53:22 Elaborate. 23:53:25 I'll do the talking here. <-- fail. should be "asking" 23:53:27 AHHHHHHHHHH 23:53:28 in doctor 23:53:39 AnMaster: I'll do the talking here. 23:53:42 hahaha 23:53:45 ehird! 23:53:47 ehird, no 23:53:48 Why do you feel AHHHHHHHHHH? 23:53:49 save yourself! 23:53:56 Please, tell me more about save yourself!. 23:54:01 hahahaha 23:54:05 XDE 23:54:06 XD* 23:54:10 Why do you say hahahaha? 23:54:17 ehird, quit 23:54:22 fungot, did you and ehird switch consciousnesses? 23:54:23 Oranjer: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! 23:54:25 hm 23:54:26 AnMaster: Permission denied 23:54:30 damn 23:54:32 You are not in /etc/sudoers 23:54:35 This incident will be reported. 23:54:39 :O 23:54:47 ehird, no one reads system logs anyway (except me) 23:55:03 It sends an email to root, actually. 23:55:12 hm 23:55:19 Also, good point. Maybe I should disable logs. :P 23:55:30 ehird, no. Good for when things break 23:55:34 or malfunction 23:55:35 I was joking. 23:55:42 Some logs could do with disabling though... 23:56:01 ehird, but most people don't routinely check for non-whitelisted log entries 23:56:06 * AnMaster has a script to do that 23:56:09 Eh? 23:56:46 Grr, I wish there was a good minimal coreutils replacement. 23:56:50 ehird, list of regex, anything not matching in logs is reported to me 23:56:55 by mail 23:56:59 Instead of digging through BSD source trees... 23:57:20 busybox? 23:57:27 and night night really 23:57:31 night →→→ 23:57:41 Busybox is not minimalist, it's useless. :P