←2009-10-23 2009-10-24 2009-10-25→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:02 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], can you type åäöÅÄÖ?
00:00:02 * FireFly refuses to pluralise smiley correctly
00:00:02 <FireFly[DS]> Um
00:00:02 <FireFly[DS]> åäö
00:00:03 <AnMaster> ah
00:00:07 <AnMaster> é ?
00:00:13 <AnMaster> idé
00:00:18 <FireFly[DS]> Though with a ugly hack
00:00:21 <FireFly[DS]> Nope
00:00:23 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], what hack?
00:00:26 <FireFly> Well
00:00:39 <FireFly> I defined å, ä and ö as "macro" thingies
00:00:40 <AnMaster> heh
00:00:42 <FireFly> So I can insert them with alt-1, alt-2 and alt-3
00:01:14 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:01:20 <FireFly> The client supports DCC, logging, and some other awesome stuff
00:01:36 <FireFly[DS]> <01:00:26> <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:01:39 <AnMaster> FireFly, so does my bouyncer
00:01:40 <FireFly> That line showed up as
00:01:46 <FireFly> Um
00:01:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, as correctly?
00:01:53 <FireFly> As åt' and åth
00:01:59 <AnMaster> eh
00:02:00 <FireFly> Though a stranger h
00:02:03 <FireFly> So, not correctly :P
00:02:03 <AnMaster> FireFly, unicode fail
00:02:10 <AnMaster> badly
00:02:14 <FireFly> Meh, it fails at ASCII åäö too :P
00:02:19 <AnMaster> FireFly, oh?
00:02:19 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
00:02:26 <AnMaster> and those are not ASCII
00:02:30 <AnMaster> those are ISO-something
00:02:37 <FireFly> Meh, whatever
00:02:44 <FireFly> ASCIIish
00:02:52 <AnMaster> unibyte encoding yes
00:03:15 <FireFly> Anyway, the DSOrganize client I used before can handle åäö correctly
00:03:20 <FireFly> Unicode åäö, that is
00:03:26 <AnMaster> nice
00:03:27 <FireFly> And also input them
00:03:36 <FireFly> due to being able to set up your own charmap manually in config files
00:03:48 <FireFly> So I altered it to wannabe-svorak (had to change some stuff for it to fit)
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:04:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, how does that show up there
00:04:12 * AnMaster bets: horrible
00:04:17 <fax> fail
00:04:19 <FireFly> Well, quite horrible, yeah
00:04:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, and does it show up well on your normal computer?
00:04:30 <AnMaster> fax, fail how?
00:04:38 <fax> line spacing is too big
00:04:42 <fax> gaps
00:05:37 <AnMaster> fax, not here
00:05:39 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw
00:05:43 <Oranjer> haha
00:05:49 <AnMaster> (old reference rendering)
00:06:05 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what is "haha" about?
00:06:14 <Oranjer> I don't know
00:06:17 <Oranjer> "fax, not here"
00:06:20 <fax> he's laughing at your attempt to render equations
00:06:28 <Oranjer> :O
00:06:40 <AnMaster> fax, no, at your failure to handle the perfectly fine unicode :P
00:06:41 <Oranjer> ah
00:06:57 <Oranjer> the link looks hell of different from what I saw
00:07:12 <Oranjer> yay piecewise
00:07:24 <AnMaster> Oranjer, then your font fails, your unicode support fails, or you aren't using monospaced font (even more fail)
00:07:37 <Oranjer> :OOOOOOO
00:07:37 <Oranjer> :OOOOOOO
00:07:47 <Oranjer> I am PUZZLED by this turn of events
00:07:57 <AnMaster> Oranjer, you are always anyway
00:08:01 <AnMaster> so it doesn't seem to matter
00:08:11 <AnMaster> (or make a difference)
00:08:27 -!- lament has joined.
00:08:33 <lament> should i unban ehird?
00:09:16 <AnMaster> lament, your choice
00:09:45 <lament> the problem is
00:09:50 <AnMaster> lament, hm?
00:09:52 <lament> if i don't do it, i'll forget about it
00:09:55 <Sgeo> I suppose there's no easy way to search for something that matches a regex in SQL?
00:09:58 <lament> and then i'll never do it
00:10:25 <AnMaster> lament, what about if and only if this renders like in the reference drawing (url in a few seconds):
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:10:31 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw
00:10:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:10:38 <lament> AnMaster: it doesnt
00:10:48 <AnMaster> lament, ah. Unicode issues?
00:10:50 <lament> yeha
00:10:59 <lament> i'm using putty
00:11:07 <AnMaster> lament, I would say "FAIL" but what if your +o, I don't
00:11:08 <AnMaster> :P
00:11:12 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*.
00:11:22 <lament> what are all those other entries in the ban list?
00:11:41 <AnMaster> lament, the ones you forgot?
00:11:47 <AnMaster> nah, just kidding
00:11:47 <lament> i guess
00:11:52 <FireFly[DS]> :P
00:11:55 <AnMaster> lament, I think some were trolls
00:11:56 <AnMaster> at least
00:12:39 <AnMaster> lament, not sure I would say "all those"
00:12:48 <AnMaster> just 6
00:17:41 -!- ehird has joined.
00:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird, wb
00:18:48 <AnMaster> night
00:19:07 <ehird> only the second time you've said night today.
00:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah. But I didn't use an arrow yet did I ?
00:19:42 <AnMaster> (on the same line that is)
00:20:00 <AnMaster> now however:
00:20:01 <AnMaster> ↫ night
00:23:45 <ehird> There are other friendly front-ends to Linux, including the K Desktop Environment (KDE), but Gnome is quickly becoming the GUI of choice to run on top of Linux.
00:23:45 <ehird> "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the most," says Miguel.
00:23:54 <ehird> 1999
00:24:01 <Warrigal> Hey, it's an Ackermann function.
00:25:08 <Warrigal> Which I say to imply that the thing I wrote on a random whiteboard was also an Ackermann function.
00:25:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:26:27 <Warrigal> What I wrote was A(0,n) = n+1, A(m,0) = A(m-1,m) for m > 0, A(m,n) = A(m-1,A(m,n-1)) for m, n > 0, or something like that.
00:35:20 <ehird> "If you really must, pirate, feel guilty and don't lie to yourself." // boy, having sound economic arguments against copyright sure does help me sleep easy
00:35:41 <ehird> not
00:57:29 <Oranjer> what
00:58:22 <Oranjer> heylo ehird
00:58:31 <ehird> Olyeh
00:58:40 <Oranjer> Ole!
00:58:50 <Oranjer> imagine there is an accent on the e
00:59:08 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit ("ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS").
00:59:31 <Oranjer> :O
00:59:43 <Oranjer> why...why does everyone in my life leave me?
00:59:52 <Oranjer> >:( why )
01:03:00 <oerjan> try using a zinc toothpaste
01:03:21 <Oranjer> no thanks, I do not know the effect zinc would have on my dentata
01:03:57 <fax> lol
01:04:08 <Oranjer> okay
01:04:29 <lament> vagina dentata?
01:04:47 <oerjan> my how opulent we are today
01:04:49 <Oranjer> :O
01:05:04 <ehird> lament: my first thought :/
01:05:05 <ehird> sp3 download so slow ;__;
01:05:08 <Oranjer> my...my gods, do those with vagina dentata brush their teeth?
01:05:12 <ehird> so slow that I use two underscores ;__;
01:05:13 <Oranjer> :O
01:05:26 <ehird> "Have to go brush my vagina now."
01:05:51 <oerjan> Oranjer: you mean, both sets? i think using two different toothbrushes might be in order
01:06:05 <Oranjer> yes, certainly, oerjan
01:06:18 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I hate it when she uses that excuse
01:06:21 <Oranjer> oy!
01:07:13 <Oranjer> anyways
01:07:41 <Oranjer> what now, peeps?
01:08:23 <oerjan> well if you must peep i can't stop you
01:08:40 <Oranjer> peeps behave yourself?
01:09:00 <oerjan> never!
01:09:28 <Oranjer> you'd best, or ah'll have to ask me peeps for the whip!
01:09:33 <ehird> gah so SLOW
01:09:43 <Oranjer> sorry, ehird
01:09:52 <ehird> no i mean this sp3 download
01:09:54 <Oranjer> it's almost as if they're designed against that
01:09:56 <Oranjer> ohhhhhh
01:13:09 -!- immibis has joined.
01:20:03 <ehird> is it even downloading at all, I don't think so
01:51:40 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
02:00:51 <Oranjer> NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:07:07 <immibis> ?
02:07:17 <Oranjer> nothing much, why?
02:16:30 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
02:16:48 <augur> how come oranjer always leaves before i show yp?
02:16:50 <augur> :|
02:25:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
02:41:23 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
03:31:49 <ehird> http://www.idefex.net/b3takhan/graphs/ffffffffffffu*.png
03:33:54 <Gregor> Somebody's ripping off Ryan North :P
03:35:26 <Sgeo> ehird, there needs to be a 3 dimensional graph, for number of f's and number of u's
03:35:33 <ehird> cba
03:35:38 <ehird> Gregor: The Kha*n thing predates that
03:35:44 <ehird> and so does that graph generator
03:35:51 <ehird> RYAN NORTH IS AN IMITATOR
03:35:59 <Gregor> Womp womp
03:36:16 <ehird> it would be fun to have a 3d graph though
03:36:22 <ehird> if i wasn't lazy i'd do it in mathematica
03:36:49 <Gregor> Fine.
03:36:51 <Gregor> Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, princess!
03:44:49 <ehird> A spiralling staircase of uncut grass!
03:49:15 <ehird> http://stali.suckless.org/ has made me want to play around with compiling linux kernels
04:15:16 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
04:17:22 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.).
04:17:24 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
04:17:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:59:18 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving...").
04:59:53 -!- Oranjer has joined.
05:01:15 <Oranjer> :O
05:01:30 <Oranjer> anyone here?
05:08:25 <Oranjer> fungot, tell me the news
05:08:26 <fungot> Oranjer: so with all this in mind, please look at the very beginning of the article. we don't have an article about settlements, fnord or fnord.
05:08:33 <Oranjer> :O
05:08:35 <Oranjer> holy shit
05:10:19 * Sgeo starts worshiping the shit
05:10:34 <Oranjer> holy Oranjer
05:11:24 <Sgeo> *bows*
05:11:58 <Oranjer> yay me
05:12:03 <Oranjer> holy Sgeo
05:17:15 -!- augur has joined.
05:18:09 <Oranjer> oh no augur oh shit oh shit
05:18:21 <augur> oh hey you
05:18:27 <Oranjer> :O
05:18:34 <augur> tell me more of your silly ideas
05:18:38 <Oranjer> heh
05:18:49 <Oranjer> that's my second best pick-up line, actually
05:18:58 <augur> what?
05:19:01 <augur> are you hitting on me?
05:19:03 <augur> :|
05:19:06 <Oranjer> what, no
05:19:06 <Oranjer> haha
05:19:10 <Oranjer> :|
05:19:14 <augur> are you a sexy gay boy?
05:19:21 <Oranjer> :( what )
05:19:27 <augur> its a simple question!
05:19:33 <augur> are you sexy, gay, and a boy
05:19:42 <Oranjer> nope!
05:19:48 <Oranjer> (I'm scared...)
05:19:51 <Oranjer> (:O)
05:20:00 <augur> well stop hitting on me then! :|
05:20:06 <Oranjer> ahhh
05:20:10 <Oranjer> I didn't ahhh
05:20:19 <Oranjer> you linguists read to much into things ahhhh
05:20:20 <Oranjer> haha
05:20:47 <augur> no
05:20:59 <augur> its more that ive been on a kick lately fucking with people like that
05:21:06 <augur> poor kids in in proggit
05:21:08 <Oranjer> uh okay uhhh
05:21:15 <Oranjer> no idea what that means but okay
05:21:23 <augur> KNEE WAYS
05:21:50 <Oranjer> my silly ideas! yay!
05:21:57 <Oranjer> oh!
05:22:20 <Oranjer> I should probably ask you, as I have heard it is a sorta-controversial thing amongst linguists
05:22:40 <augur> oh no controversy! :O
05:22:43 <Oranjer> what is your stance on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis?
05:22:46 <Oranjer> :O
05:23:09 <augur> the extent to which it "exists" is boringly uninteresting.
05:23:48 <Oranjer> wait, the controversy, or the phenomena described by the Hypothesis?
05:27:20 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
05:27:40 <Oranjer1> augur
05:27:44 <Oranjer1> what did you say
05:27:46 <Oranjer1> I missed it
05:28:05 <augur> the S-W hypothesis.
05:28:18 <augur> the extent to which it exists is boring.
05:28:27 <Oranjer1> oh, okay
05:28:31 <Oranjer1> yaaaaaaaay!
05:28:56 <augur> what.
05:29:25 <Oranjer1> yaaaaay new silly ideas
05:29:31 <Oranjer1> "bisociation"!!!!
05:30:26 <Oranjer1> :O
05:32:12 <ehird> AIUsdhasiufhdiuhsiguhsdfg
05:32:14 <ehird> You're talking!
05:32:19 <Oranjer1> augur ehird what
05:32:22 <Oranjer1> hello ehird
05:32:28 <ehird> ugh, about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
05:32:31 <augur> yes
05:32:34 <augur> its a stupid hypothesis.
05:32:38 <ehird> almost entirely debunked
05:32:39 <augur> hence why were not talking about it anymore.
05:32:41 <Oranjer1> no, we have moved on
05:32:44 <ehird> and what little remains is entirely unfun!
05:32:45 <Oranjer1> exactly
05:32:45 <ehird> oh good
05:32:47 <ehird> move on some more
05:32:49 <ehird> :P
05:32:56 <Oranjer1> uh-oh
05:33:04 <ehird> sapir-whorf is kinda like one of those things i sorta wish was true
05:33:07 <Oranjer1> I have moved on to Sociology! :O
05:33:16 <augur> so im watching Moon
05:33:17 <ehird> also quantum tunneling for FTL transmission
05:33:17 <augur> and like
05:33:30 <Oranjer1> yeah, augur?
05:33:34 <ehird> i love the name of that movie
05:33:35 <ehird> "moon"
05:33:39 <ehird> it has completely monopolised
05:33:41 <Oranjer1> (I was just thinking of that word)
05:33:44 <ehird> that name
05:33:45 <augur> they're doing the whole "space mission so we have to send recorded videos and blah blah blah so far away no communication oh no isolation D:"
05:33:46 <ehird> and removed it from the pool
05:33:50 <ehird> of all future moon-related movies
05:33:56 <ehird> and it does this JUST BECAUSE IT CAN
05:33:57 <ehird> "moon"
05:33:59 <Oranjer1> Moonshot
05:34:03 <Oranjer1> "THE moon"
05:34:03 <ehird> translation to all lunar-related movie makers:
05:34:04 <ehird> "FUCK YOU"
05:34:12 <Oranjer1> "The SkyRock"
05:34:18 <augur> the problem with this little scenario is
05:34:20 <ehird> "Nightstar... wait"
05:34:27 <augur> the moon is only 2 seconds away by radio
05:34:29 <Oranjer1> "That thing in space that SURROUNDS us"
05:34:33 <ehird> augur: A movie?
05:34:34 <ehird> wait
05:34:36 <augur> yes
05:34:36 <ehird> UNREALISTIC?
05:34:37 <Oranjer1> they aren't using radio, augur
05:34:40 <ehird> h o l y
05:34:41 <ehird> s h i t
05:34:44 <Oranjer1> they're using smoke signals
05:34:45 <ehird> STOP
05:34:46 <ehird> THE
05:34:47 <ehird> PRESSeS
05:34:48 <Oranjer1> IN SPACE
05:34:49 <augur> :P
05:34:50 <ehird> WITH A CAPITAL E
05:34:51 <augur> its just like
05:34:54 <augur> cmon man
05:35:00 <augur> it takes five seconds to look this kind of thing up
05:35:02 <Oranjer1> we know, augur
05:35:05 <ehird> augur: would you prefer they called it
05:35:13 <ehird> Andromeda 33C-01/22348576-4
05:35:16 <augur> you couldve at least put the base around jupiter or saturn or something
05:35:18 <Oranjer1> wait--how do we know it's our moon? can he see earth from that?
05:35:18 <ehird> moon 74
05:35:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:35:29 <augur> because that way it would take time for the messages to travel to earth
05:35:35 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
05:35:36 <augur> yes, we can
05:35:39 <augur> its THE moon.
05:35:40 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
05:35:41 <ehird> the moon is nicer than those places, though.
05:35:42 <augur> Luna.
05:35:47 <ehird> it's all rocky and grey!
05:35:48 <augur> pfft
05:35:55 <augur> Saturn > ALL
05:35:56 <augur> :|
05:35:57 <ehird> ...like an emo kid...
05:36:04 <ehird> ...sort of
05:36:05 <augur> you're an emo kid.
05:36:10 <ehird> no, i'm not :P
05:36:15 <Oranjer> yes
05:36:18 <Oranjer> emo ehird
05:36:22 <augur> yes you are
05:36:22 <ehird> emohird
05:36:29 <augur> youve got long black hair
05:36:29 <Oranjer> eemhird
05:36:29 <ehird> augur: HOWSO
05:36:31 <ehird> NO
05:36:33 <ehird> it is dark brown
05:36:34 <ehird> FUCK YOU
05:36:35 <augur> you look like you're gay but swear you're not
05:36:35 <ehird> :P
05:36:38 <ehird> ...
05:36:38 <Oranjer> HAHA
05:36:39 <ehird> no i don't?
05:36:57 <Oranjer> now now, that is no way to talk to an emo herd!
05:37:02 <augur> and you complain all the time about people mistreating you because they just dont understand
05:37:06 <Oranjer> they might cause a suicidal stampede!
05:37:09 <ehird> *cut cut cut cut CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT*
05:37:13 <Oranjer> haha
05:37:14 <ehird> CUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUT
05:37:18 <Oranjer> :O
05:37:23 <ehird> IT'S COMING FOR YOU
05:37:34 <ehird> *suddenly, My Chemical Romance plays*
05:37:35 <Oranjer> cut
05:37:35 <Oranjer> cut
05:37:35 <Oranjer> cut
05:37:35 <Oranjer> Cut
05:37:35 <Oranjer> Cut
05:37:37 <ehird> *everyone melts*
05:37:38 <Oranjer> CUT
05:37:39 <Oranjer> CUT
05:37:40 <Oranjer> haha
05:37:40 <ehird> *horror*
05:37:43 <Oranjer> ew
05:37:44 <ehird> <director> CUT
05:37:48 <augur> have you seen galipokas little video with that at the end?
05:37:52 <Oranjer> what, no?
05:38:03 <Oranjer> with a cutting stampede?
05:38:11 <augur> well
05:38:14 <ehird> cutting edge
05:38:14 <ehird> amirite
05:38:15 <augur> with making fun of emo kids
05:38:21 <ehird> making fun of emo kids? HOW NOVEL
05:38:51 <augur> at the end he plays a very brief clip with the "i think im emo" song, and a video of him sawing at his wrists with a pair of plastic safety scissors
05:39:17 <Oranjer> damn
05:39:25 <Oranjer> I want to see an emo kid use a saw
05:39:27 <Oranjer> OR
05:39:51 <Oranjer> an emo kid falls off a church roof, arms stretched out, and his wrists land on upturned saw blades
05:39:52 <Oranjer> :O
05:40:05 <Oranjer> no one witnesses this
05:40:42 <augur> an emo kid kills himself in the woods
05:40:46 <augur> does he make a sound?
05:41:13 <Oranjer> yes, he screams
05:41:23 <Oranjer> or, he cries
05:41:30 <augur> lame response
05:41:32 <Oranjer> I have never been able to tell the difference
05:41:34 <ehird> I DISCOVERED
05:41:35 <ehird> HOW TO FLY
05:41:40 <ehird> IT IS IN FACT THE SAME WAY AS YOU DIE.
05:41:42 <Oranjer> YAY EHIRD EHIRD THE BIRD
05:41:50 <Oranjer> decapitation?
05:41:51 <ehird> YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
05:42:04 <ehird> no, spontaneous quantum existence failure
05:42:06 <ehird> duh
05:42:13 <Oranjer> you can't die from that!
05:42:23 <ehird> yes you can, with enough luck
05:42:27 <Oranjer> ha!
05:42:38 <Oranjer> There's no luck in quantum mechanics! HA
05:42:40 <Oranjer> oh wait
05:44:44 <Oranjer> okay new subject
05:44:56 <ehird> i like this rapid-fire subjectness
05:45:01 <Oranjer> thoughts on: religion!
05:45:18 <Oranjer> ha, this is gonna get one of us killed, I know it
05:45:45 <ehird> bullshit, bunkum, designed to control the masses, unfalsifiable, god of the gaps is rapidly failing, yawn
05:45:53 <ehird> okay new subject
05:45:55 <Oranjer> okay, we got one opinion
05:46:00 <Oranjer> WAIT WHERE IS AUGUR
05:46:05 <augur> watching Moon
05:46:05 <Oranjer> WE MUST KNOW
05:46:08 <augur> dont you pay attention?
05:46:08 <Oranjer> oh, sorry
05:46:10 <Oranjer> ha
05:46:27 <augur> also, you suck at linguistics.
05:46:29 <augur> that is all.
05:46:31 <Oranjer> I thought you were being metaphysical or whatever, like you were watching it in your head
05:46:33 <Oranjer> :O
05:46:43 <Oranjer> that's no way to talk to a stranger!
05:46:53 <Oranjer> No one should be a cock to a stranger, *ever*.
05:48:07 <augur> oh i see i see
05:48:07 <augur> its not that they screwed up ehird
05:48:07 <augur> :o
05:48:07 <Oranjer> what?
05:48:07 <augur> the satellite that normally would relay life communications is "down"
05:48:10 <Oranjer> haha
05:48:12 <Oranjer> okay
05:48:16 <Oranjer> so, smoke signals!
05:48:42 <Oranjer> hey, ehird
05:48:53 <Oranjer> what are we gonna do about: childhood indoctrination?
05:48:55 <Oranjer> :O
05:49:42 <ehird> wait for the religious to die off.
05:50:01 <augur> or move to the uk
05:50:02 <Oranjer> that can't happen--*they don't believe in birth control!* :O
05:50:12 <ehird> eugenics!
05:50:14 <ehird> :{
05:50:16 <ehird> *:P
05:50:19 <Oranjer> *everyone* can't move to the uk
05:50:26 <ehird> don't move to the UK— it's shit
05:50:43 <Oranjer> also, eugenics would hardly fix childhood gullibility
05:50:46 <Oranjer> :(
05:50:50 <ehird> it'd stop the religious breeding :P
05:51:05 <ehird> (well, with a sufficiently brutal program. of course the ethics of that could be debated, but MAD SCIENTIST TIME!)
05:51:13 <Oranjer> FOR SCIENCE
05:51:17 <Oranjer> also, no, that can't work
05:51:19 <Oranjer> they outnumber us
05:51:27 <Oranjer> and they control missiles and shit
05:51:37 <ehird> well, I'm assuming you're in a position of authority
05:51:42 <ehird> i.e. dictator
05:51:42 <Oranjer> ha
05:51:49 <Oranjer> assume I am a street urchin, of course
05:51:52 <ehird> or at least with a similar-minded governmental body
05:51:56 <Oranjer> assume you are you and I am I
05:52:06 <Oranjer> how do we stop childhood indoctrination???
05:52:07 <ehird> Oranjer: serial killing, followed by suicide as the only way to fix your now permanently damaged psyche
05:52:10 <ehird> have fun
05:52:13 <Oranjer> hmmm
05:52:16 <Oranjer> nope, won't work
05:52:24 <ehird> o rly
05:52:31 <Oranjer> I would be acting as an "atheist role model"
05:52:55 <Oranjer> and it would just give the religious an excuse to shove GAAAWD down the kid's throats
05:53:02 <Oranjer> even more than it is
05:53:33 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I doubt you've actually thought this out--are you even trying anymore? or have you given up?
05:53:34 <ehird> serial killing = every single religious person, naturally
05:53:51 <Oranjer> ...
05:53:52 <ehird> oh you want real solutions?
05:53:56 <Oranjer> yep!
05:54:10 <ehird> singularity! has some side-effects. may contain peanuts.
05:54:30 <Oranjer> so we hasten the Singularity, wonderful
05:54:34 <ehird> side-effects include complete extinction of humanity as we know it, earth becoming a minor datapoint, etc etc etc, do not use while pregnant
05:54:52 <Oranjer> any ideas how to do that by 2030?
05:55:41 <ehird> ehh
05:55:41 <augur> im working on it
05:55:50 <ehird> augur: what, by studying linguistics?
05:55:53 <augur> no
05:55:54 <Oranjer> very well
05:55:56 <Oranjer> hehe
05:56:20 <Oranjer> ho ho ho hee hee! hee!
05:56:28 <Oranjer> then what, augur?
05:56:29 <augur> haa haa haa
05:56:33 <Oranjer> :O
05:56:44 <augur> sorry
05:56:48 <augur> i just wanted to continue the whole
05:56:52 <augur> I Am the Walrus
05:56:55 <augur> thing that you had there
05:57:00 <ehird> elaborate on "im working on it" :P
05:57:22 <augur> ehird
05:57:23 <augur> im not really
05:57:24 <augur> but
05:57:33 <augur> i /am/ working on something that might have applications in that domain
05:57:35 <augur> to a limit extent
05:57:44 <ehird> doesn't that apply to like
05:57:47 <Oranjer> oh, sorry, I didn't notice the Walrus in the room, sorry
05:57:48 <ehird> most of all science
05:57:48 <ehird> ever
05:57:51 <Oranjer> heh
05:57:54 <Oranjer> TELL US AUGUR
05:58:02 <augur> well
05:58:04 <augur> maybe
05:58:06 <Oranjer> WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO lose? your dignity?
05:58:07 <augur> but i mean more directly, ehird.
05:58:14 <ehird> Oranjer: your caps lock?
05:58:14 <augur> anyway
05:58:19 <Oranjer> :o
05:58:20 <augur> yeah i could lose that.
05:58:24 <augur> but anyway
05:58:49 <augur> part of the work i do on linguistics also involves a conceptual system
05:58:50 <Oranjer> I already did, use Enso!
05:59:01 <augur> that might be extendable to some AI tasks
05:59:10 <Oranjer> yay?
05:59:15 <augur> well you asked!
05:59:32 <ehird> i'm fairly sure enso damages your hands (also it's unmaintained)
05:59:56 <Oranjer> yeah, that too
05:59:58 <Oranjer> :(
06:00:19 <ehird> damages your hands = typing text while holding capslock
06:00:23 <ehird> your left hand will looooooove you
06:00:38 <Oranjer> uh
06:00:43 <Oranjer> ew?
06:00:48 <ehird> ...
06:00:49 <ehird> not like that
06:00:52 <Oranjer> ewww
06:00:56 <Oranjer> Ensophile!
06:00:57 <ehird> like the "OH GOD THE CRIPPLING PAIN" kind
06:00:58 <Oranjer> haha
06:01:00 <ehird> wait, that's still ambiguous
06:01:01 <ehird> fuck
06:01:02 <ehird> no
06:01:03 <ehird> not fuck
06:01:03 <ehird> argh
06:01:04 <ehird> just
06:01:05 <ehird> i'm stopping
06:01:06 <ehird> this thread
06:01:07 <ehird> right now
06:01:07 <Oranjer> HAHA
06:01:09 <ehird> new topic
06:01:09 <Oranjer> HAHAHAH
06:01:14 <ehird> NEW TOPIC
06:01:14 <Oranjer> new topic calL!
06:01:16 <augur> enso is boringly simple.
06:01:21 <augur> and useless
06:01:24 <Oranjer> NEW TPOCI
06:01:31 <ehird> boringly simple is a pretty good praise of usability
06:01:38 <Oranjer> who shall suggest the next topic?
06:01:44 <ehird> boring = i didn't notice it bother me, simple = i didn't have to think much
06:01:47 <augur> and aza raskin makes me want to punch him in the face
06:01:50 <ehird> of course useless is rather less praisey....
06:01:50 <augur> he talks artificially
06:01:50 <ehird> HEY
06:01:53 <Oranjer> why's that?
06:01:57 <ehird> he is cool :(
06:02:04 <Oranjer> what's wrong with the Aza to you, punk?
06:02:11 <ehird> although jef is cooler
06:02:13 <ehird> well
06:02:13 <ehird> was
06:02:14 <Oranjer> true
06:02:16 <augur> its a nice IDEA
06:02:30 <ehird> Enso was like the prototype for ubiquity, except ubiquity makes you use firefox; eww.
06:02:34 <augur> but its ... useless
06:02:37 <Oranjer> also!
06:02:50 <Oranjer> ehird, firefox's awesome bar removes most of the use of ubiquity
06:02:56 <ehird> er
06:02:56 <Oranjer> it's awesome, really
06:02:57 <ehird> not really
06:03:01 <Oranjer> WHAT
06:03:02 <ehird> it doesn't do anything ubiquity does
06:03:07 <Oranjer> oh?
06:03:07 <ehird> and ubiquity postdates the awesomebar
06:03:12 <ehird> so umm
06:03:13 <ehird> fail :D
06:03:17 <Oranjer> uhhh
06:03:26 <Oranjer> ...
06:03:38 <Oranjer> ...................
06:03:43 <Oranjer> NEW TOPIC SUBJECT
06:04:33 <augur> i want to build an agent program.
06:04:39 <Sgeo> Define "agent"
06:04:48 <Oranjer> yeah
06:04:55 <Oranjer> Observer, User
06:04:55 <augur> you know
06:04:57 <Oranjer> :O
06:05:00 <Oranjer> "you know"
06:05:02 <Oranjer> "bullshit"
06:05:06 <augur> one of those things that chases renegages through the matrix!
06:05:06 <Oranjer> "I'm calling it"
06:05:10 <Oranjer> oh
06:05:17 <Oranjer> ha
06:05:49 <Oranjer> "Captain! What do we do now!" "Don't Worry--we'll just have to RE-ENGAGE!"
06:05:50 <ehird> antecedent bricks, i should sleep soon :)
06:06:04 <augur> and by that i mean
06:06:04 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent
06:07:07 <augur> something that has a relatively general understanding of the workings of the computer's software (in the sense that quicksilver does)
06:07:49 <augur> but which can be issued complex commands (preferably verbally) that might require a more complicated process than simply issuing a single method call to something
06:07:55 <Oranjer> "Agent, Open my Email." "I can't do that, Augur."
06:07:57 <ehird> speech recognition sucks.
06:08:03 <augur> it does :(
06:08:11 <Oranjer> /now/ it sucks
06:08:16 <ehird> furthermore, i think clearer while i type
06:08:19 <ehird> so fuck speech recog
06:08:26 <augur> well you can type if you want :p
06:08:27 <ehird> haptic input, and then straight to brain control
06:08:33 <ehird> all the rest is fluff
06:08:36 <augur> but anyway
06:08:38 <Oranjer> NUI! NUI!
06:08:50 <augur> i want to try and get something that can take complex linguistic commands and execute them
06:09:01 <Oranjer> hmmm
06:09:05 <ehird> requires strong ai
06:09:08 <augur> nah
06:09:15 <augur> i mean, look
06:09:22 <Oranjer> why not just use a formalized English or whatever? with a rigid structure?
06:09:23 <augur> quick silver is like a very primitive version of this
06:09:34 <augur> it has a small, but powerful lexicon of nouns and verbs
06:09:47 <ehird> quicksilver doesn't let you issue natural commands at all
06:09:51 <augur> and you can, /effective/y, feed it simple sentences
06:10:07 <Oranjer> heh, the / acts as an l
06:10:09 <augur> ofcourse theyre in the weird quicksilver dialect, but
06:10:43 <augur> what i intend would be something like quicksilver, in that it has a "vocabulary" of sorts
06:10:55 <augur> or more accurately
06:11:11 <augur> it has a subset of english as its grammar
06:11:16 <Oranjer> yay
06:11:23 <Oranjer> S-V-Modifiers!
06:11:24 <augur> and it has a well defined QS-like set of hooks into other applications
06:11:29 <Oranjer> yaaaaayyy
06:11:43 <augur> hooks which, in this case, interface not with a surface grammatical form like in QS
06:11:51 <augur> but instead with a decomposed semantic representation
06:12:02 <augur> that is defined over the grammar
06:12:28 <Oranjer> okay
06:13:22 <augur> theres actually a fairly powerful technique called frame semantics that's been used for automatic story comprehension
06:13:26 <augur> (back in the 70s)
06:13:45 <ehird> i need to sleep soon
06:13:48 <Oranjer> heh
06:13:54 <augur> enough so that the system can actually use its frame semantic knowledge to take a story about a guy going to a restaurant via train and bus
06:14:00 <augur> and then "going home"
06:14:07 <Oranjer> ah
06:14:08 <augur> even tho he had no money
06:14:13 <Oranjer> uh
06:14:15 <augur> and if you ask the system how he got home if he has no money
06:14:25 <augur> the computer will say "he probably had a return ticket!"
06:14:30 <Oranjer> :O
06:14:42 <augur> so it actually infers beyond what is explicit to what is reasonably deducible
06:14:57 <Oranjer> "Pay for my taxi, FS." "I can't do that, Dave."
06:15:02 <augur> because it has a collection of situational frames that
06:15:26 <Oranjer> I think I would call that anologous relational structures
06:15:29 <Oranjer> yaaaaay
06:15:41 <ehird> augur: tl;dr almost all of it is hardcoded
06:15:51 <ehird> teaching it about everything = wooooooooooooon't work
06:16:03 <augur> indeed, much of the frame semantic knowledge is hard coded
06:16:06 <augur> but its stuff like
06:16:19 <augur> "train-trips frame"
06:16:21 <augur> or something like that
06:16:39 <augur> which encodes things like who does what etc before during and after a train trip
06:16:40 <augur> and so forth
06:16:46 <Oranjer> A computer that can bisociate? wonderful!
06:16:57 <augur> and then you have a system that can calculate over that
06:17:10 <Oranjer> so how far are you, augur?
06:17:13 <Oranjer> :O
06:17:19 <augur> the systems ive seen are indeed limited
06:17:21 <augur> BUT
06:17:28 <augur> im not looking to make AI from this
06:17:37 <augur> im saying it'd make an interesting quicksilver-like app
06:17:47 <Oranjer> oookay
06:17:56 <Oranjer> so what *are* you actually doing?
06:18:05 <augur> if you had a set of frame semantics + a linguistic engine
06:18:18 <augur> so that you can issue complex commands that are consistent with the frame semantic knowledge the program has
06:18:22 <augur> and then the program will execute it
06:18:40 <augur> something like a hybrid between quicksilver, applescript, and automator
06:18:45 <Oranjer> uh-huh
06:18:50 <Oranjer> so what are you doing?
06:18:59 <augur> watching startrek! :|
06:19:21 <augur> what do you mean what am i doing
06:20:18 <Oranjer> what are you doing, with all these ideas and whatnot for frame thingies and stuff?
06:20:41 <augur> well
06:20:45 <Oranjer> I believe we asked you what you were working on to hasten the Singularity to end religious indoctrination in children
06:20:52 <augur> im working on the conceptual semantic stuff
06:20:59 <Oranjer> okay, that's cool
06:21:14 <augur> which would be necessary for a proper linguistic engine
06:21:19 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:21:24 <augur> THAT could then be used to construct the agent app
06:21:26 <zzo38> How do you play a infernal offshoot of The Price Is Right?
06:21:47 <Oranjer> by...guessing absurdly large amounts of money?
06:21:47 <ehird> i...
06:21:52 <zzo38> And if you had to beat the Grim Reaper at one of these games to avoid death, which one would you prefer: chess, poker, or mahjong?
06:21:54 <ehird> i have no idea how to answer that
06:21:56 <ehird> ...
06:21:59 <ehird> i don't know
06:22:00 <Oranjer> Chess
06:22:08 <Oranjer> less luck then poker or mahjong
06:22:15 <ehird> poker, obviously death is perfect at the other two
06:22:15 <zzo38> I don't know either, but in order to know how to play, you have to know the rules, too, I guess.
06:22:18 <ehird> and poker is the most chance-based
06:22:22 <ehird> so i have the best chance
06:22:30 <Oranjer> hmm, ehird does make a good point
06:22:55 <Oranjer> but why should we assume the ol' Grimmy is the best at chess and mahjong?
06:23:00 <ehird> also, if there's a grim reaper there's probably an afterlife dealie of some sort, so i wouldn't care too much
06:23:08 <ehird> Oranjer: because he's post-mortal.
06:23:13 <Oranjer> harrumph
06:23:14 <ehird> supernatural. antitranscendent.
06:23:15 <ehird> etc.
06:23:21 <Oranjer> he could never have been alive, ya know
06:23:26 <ehird> demon lord of the underworld. well, that's more satan
06:23:26 <Oranjer> merely supernatural
06:23:27 <ehird> but whatever
06:23:27 <zzo38> Yes, these are good point. I thought of it too, of course. But I got the idea at first from something in a list of adventure ideas for D&D game
06:23:37 <ehird> the odds are better that he's better than me, imo.
06:23:40 <Oranjer> uh okay
06:23:46 <Oranjer> heh, okay, you win there ehird
06:25:59 <ehird> Windows VM fun: oh fuck off, IE, I installed your update, so leave me alone and don't aadd me to my goddamn quick launch
06:26:08 <ehird> hee hee this is amusing in some sick, twisted way
06:26:56 <Oranjer> what? intrusive software?
06:27:06 <Oranjer> bah! that's why I'm an advocate of 'permission marketing'
06:27:13 <Oranjer> and no, i didn't make that one up
06:27:24 <ehird> what does that even mean
06:28:19 <zzo38> Yes, I also want to know what it means because I don't quite understand completely either.
06:28:20 <Oranjer> uh google maybe
06:28:32 <Oranjer> okay I will get you the wikiwiki link uh okay
06:28:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permission_marketing
06:28:46 <Oranjer> uh okay
06:29:22 <zzo38> I just found the same link
06:29:24 <Oranjer> I'm saying that intrusive software is an expected result of living in a culture infested with interruptive marketing
06:29:49 <ehird> Oranjer: you're boring!
06:29:54 <Oranjer> sorry, ehird
06:29:54 <ehird> also it's the OS's fault.
06:30:19 <Oranjer> :(
06:30:30 <Oranjer> :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
06:31:35 <Oranjer> hey augur what do you think about: E-prime!
06:31:37 <Oranjer> :O
06:32:06 <augur> its stupid
06:32:14 <zzo38> If you wrote a Linux distribution, which things would you change?
06:32:16 <Oranjer> ...thanks, augur
06:32:25 <zzo38> (Or a completely new OS)
06:32:28 <Oranjer> no idea, zzo38
06:32:34 <Oranjer> oh, a completely new OS?
06:32:46 <Oranjer> make it a physics based grammar! yaaaay
06:33:11 <augur> what
06:33:22 <Oranjer> uhhh
06:34:05 <Oranjer> make the the human-computer interaction based entirely on conditionals represented through the physical placement of objects along any number of scales
06:34:15 <augur> no.
06:34:50 <Oranjer> ha! I can do that too!
06:34:52 <Oranjer> yes.
06:34:58 <Oranjer> *raspberry*
06:35:02 <augur> o_o
06:35:02 <augur> what
06:35:18 <Oranjer> merely stating the contradiction without adding anything to the discussion
06:35:34 <augur> there was no contradiction
06:35:35 <Oranjer> no. yes. no. YES. NO. AARFGGHSKF That is how wars are started!
06:35:41 <augur> you used an imperative.
06:35:49 <augur> i simply said no to that imperative.
06:35:54 <Oranjer> oh, ha!
06:35:59 <Oranjer> okay, fair enough
06:36:04 <Oranjer> damn loopholes, though
06:36:23 <augur> im a linguist.
06:36:36 <Oranjer> yep
06:36:41 <ehird> i'm a pork
06:36:42 <Oranjer> doing something with frames
06:36:51 * augur porks ehird
06:36:57 <ehird> no
06:37:02 <Oranjer> "I'm a linguist. Doing something with frames!" (copyright)
06:37:15 <ehird> i'm a linguist
06:37:16 <ehird> framing your mother
06:37:22 <augur> for what
06:37:27 <ehird> dunno
06:37:54 <Oranjer> aw
06:41:35 <ehird> yay install sp 3 like a magic
06:41:53 <Oranjer> uh okay
06:42:28 <Oranjer> hey uh I am gone for a bit see you later uh okay
06:43:23 -!- Asztal has joined.
06:53:26 <Oranjer> hello Asztal!
06:53:29 <Oranjer> :O
06:55:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:08:42 -!- madbr has joined.
07:18:35 <ehird> garfieldwithoutgarfieldorjonoranyofthecharactersoranypanelapartfromthefirst.com
07:18:37 <ehird> it must be done
07:19:11 <madbr> does your irc client have a proportionnal font?
07:19:16 <ehird> yes
07:19:51 <madbr> ok here's the first comic
07:19:52 <madbr> .--------------------------.
07:19:52 <madbr> | |
07:19:52 <madbr> | |
07:19:52 <madbr> | |
07:19:52 <madbr> | |
07:19:54 <madbr> | |
07:19:56 <madbr> | |
07:19:58 <madbr> | |
07:20:00 <madbr> | |
07:20:02 <madbr> | |
07:20:04 <madbr> | |
07:20:06 <madbr> | |
07:20:08 <madbr> |__________________________|
07:20:14 <ehird> you forgot the horizon line
07:20:18 <ehird> and the different wall and floor
07:20:23 <ehird> and also any plants that may be present
07:20:24 <ehird> and telephones
07:20:29 <ehird> the possibilities are endless
07:20:54 <madbr> that's what your mom said
07:28:04 <Oranjer> HA
07:28:18 <Oranjer> oh, kinda late
07:28:21 <Oranjer> :(
07:28:28 <madbr> heh
07:29:01 <madbr> about auxlangs, they should have, like, easy to pronounce sounds that most languages have :O
07:29:23 <Oranjer> heh, tell that to augur, he believes natural languages are "efficient enough"
07:29:32 <Oranjer> AUGUR I HAVE SUMMONED YOU!
07:29:41 <augur> i know
07:29:45 <Oranjer> okay
07:29:48 <Oranjer> hola augur
07:29:59 <augur> and auxlangs often do have easy to pronounce sounds
07:30:04 <Oranjer> :O
07:30:11 <Oranjer> Phonemes!
07:30:15 <Oranjer> Mythemes!
07:30:18 <madbr> well, natural languages are often not too "clean" but very expressive
07:30:29 <madbr> augur: true
07:30:32 <Oranjer> expressive about the familiar, yeah
07:30:45 <madbr> the worst one they have normally is, what, /v/ ?
07:30:45 <augur> the truth is tho
07:30:53 <augur> /all/ sounds are easy to pronounce
07:30:55 <augur> for the most part
07:30:59 <Oranjer> what does /v/ sound like
07:31:02 <madbr> v
07:31:03 <augur> its just that once you learn a language, you forget how to pronounce them
07:31:06 <Oranjer> oh, okay
07:31:11 <Oranjer> heh
07:31:14 <Oranjer> rearry?
07:31:16 <augur> /v/ isnt too bad
07:31:21 <augur> its just voiced /f/
07:31:23 <augur> well
07:31:25 <augur> sorry
07:31:30 <augur> we really should say [v] and [f]
07:31:34 <Oranjer> yay
07:31:44 <augur> since /v/ and /f/ are abstract language dependent object
07:31:45 <augur> s
07:31:48 <madbr> well, by that I mean usually they have /b,f,v,w/ since they're romance-derived
07:32:05 <Oranjer> although, I never did learn that IPI thingie majiger
07:32:15 <madbr> IPA?
07:32:19 <Oranjer> is there a video tutorial? :O
07:32:20 <Oranjer> yeah!
07:32:42 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
07:32:45 <Oranjer> it sucks going through wikipedia, and not knowing how to pronounce those words :(
07:32:49 <Oranjer> :(((
07:32:51 <madbr> trying to find one that's not english based
07:33:00 <Oranjer> you are?
07:33:07 <Oranjer> oh, ha
07:33:12 <Oranjer> you're looking for tutorials?
07:33:15 <Oranjer> aw, shucks
07:34:09 <Oranjer> of course, augur, I should probably have clarified before
07:35:06 <Oranjer> it wasn't really efficiency in languages that concerned me, if it was the effectiveness--as in, how effective would (could!) a natural language be when faced with new, unfamiliar phenomena?
07:35:38 <Oranjer> I'm saying that there exists the possibility that a certain artificial language could be created to maximize creativity
07:35:41 <Oranjer> :O
07:36:22 <madbr> well, ipa is mostly... hmmm...
07:36:35 <madbr> /a e i o u/ are like spanish vowels
07:37:28 <madbr> /b d f h k l m n p s t v w z/ are pretty much the sounds you expect
07:37:53 <Oranjer> I expect where? what do you mean? what's the context?!?!
07:39:30 <madbr> /g/ is always hard, /j/ is actually "y" (like in german), /q/ is arabic "q", /r/ is rolled like in spanish, /x/ is spanish "j", /y/ is german "ü", /c/ is hungarian "ty"
07:39:50 <Oranjer> jellow
07:39:56 <madbr> oranjer: that's international phonetic alphabet
07:40:00 <Oranjer> oh, okay
07:41:05 <Oranjer> [ɺ͡ɺ̼]
07:41:09 <Oranjer> do you see that?
07:41:12 <madbr> yes
07:41:15 <madbr> what is that
07:41:19 <Oranjer> it is a sound
07:41:25 <Oranjer> in a wikipedia article
07:41:29 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language
07:41:37 <Oranjer> (I love examining that language)
07:42:09 <madbr> wow that is hard to pronounce
07:42:20 <Oranjer> how does one pronounce it?
07:42:44 <madbr> that sort of rr thing? dunno
07:42:52 <Oranjer> :(
07:42:54 <Oranjer> augur
07:43:11 <augur> what now
07:43:13 <Oranjer> how do you pronounce [ɺ͡ɺ̼], augur
07:43:31 <Oranjer> wait, HOLYSHIT
07:43:37 <Oranjer> madbr, are you madbrain?
07:43:44 <Oranjer> :O
07:43:48 <madbr> sounds like rl*tongue hits the bottom of the mouth*
07:43:50 <madbr> yes
07:44:00 <Oranjer> daaaaamn, I feel like an idiot now
07:44:07 <Oranjer> hey madbr
07:44:10 <augur> uh
07:44:59 <madbr> hey
07:45:05 <Oranjer> where did you get that information, madbr?
07:45:10 <Oranjer> that it sounds like that?
07:45:14 <Oranjer> can you read that notation?
07:45:17 <Oranjer> [ɺ͡ɺ̼]?
07:45:50 <augur> oh
07:46:09 <augur> yes thats probably the crazy sound that everett talks about
07:46:25 <Oranjer> everett? what
07:46:30 <Oranjer> oh ha
07:46:33 <Oranjer> the guy in the article
07:46:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language, you saw that, right?
07:46:59 <augur> i havent read it
07:47:08 <Oranjer> okay
07:47:13 <madbr> everett is an anthropologist that worked with pirahã
07:47:17 <augur> im not sure exactly how to pronounce it; im not good with lateral taps
07:47:22 <Oranjer> ah
07:47:30 <augur> but its presumably roughly like a japanese "r"
07:47:37 <augur> but done twice
07:47:37 <madbr> Some people say he was not a praticularly good anthropologist
07:47:42 <Oranjer> heh
07:47:56 <augur> with the first part with the tongue touching the top lip instead of the alveolar ridge
07:47:59 <madbr> augur: the description says the second part is linguolabial :O
07:48:11 <augur> oh was it the first part?
07:48:12 <augur> er
07:48:13 <augur> second?
07:48:14 <augur> whatever
07:48:17 <augur> yeah soz.
07:48:29 <Oranjer> description, madbr? where?
07:48:51 <augur> it probably sounds a LOT like the "dle" in "cuddle
07:48:58 <madbr> """[ɺ͡ɺ̼] is a lateral alveolar-linguolabial double flap that has only been reported for this language, where the tongue strikes the upper gum ridge and then strikes the lower lip. However, it is only used in certain special types of speech performances, and so might not be considered a normal speech sound.""
07:49:37 <Oranjer> oh, ha
07:49:44 <Oranjer> missed that, I guess
07:50:50 <Oranjer> I dunno, if it conveys info, is it not a "speech sound"?
07:51:40 <madbr> well, this says that it's basically a weird version of /g~n/
07:51:50 <Oranjer> uh-huh
07:52:30 <madbr> and basically a substitute where the guy would say /g/ (or its allophone [n]) normally
07:52:44 <augur> the fact that its the ONLY language with it as a speech sound is ... odd
07:52:51 <Oranjer> and?
07:52:52 <augur> but
07:52:55 <augur> on the other hand
07:52:56 <Oranjer> oh!
07:53:05 <augur> we know that sign languages have phonology of signs
07:53:10 <madbr> yes
07:53:16 <Oranjer> oh, they do?
07:53:19 <augur> so the clear line between what is and isnt a speech sound is complicated
07:53:19 <Oranjer> wait what
07:53:21 <augur> yes, they do. :)
07:53:24 <Oranjer> :O
07:53:25 <augur> abstract phonology
07:53:27 <Oranjer> how...?
07:53:28 <Oranjer> ooooh
07:53:29 <Oranjer> haha
07:53:31 <Oranjer> okay
07:53:41 <madbr> well, the rr sound is too slow to really work in normal speech in pirahã
07:53:53 <augur> their "phonemes" are "articulatory" aspects of signs
07:54:13 <Oranjer> okay
07:54:18 <augur> hand position, shape, speed, etc.
07:54:32 <madbr> i think it mostly means our language part of the brain normally deals with N possibilities
07:54:52 <madbr> ie meaning is decoded into a sequence where each part can be one of N
07:55:05 <augur> some people believe that theres a well defined space of phonetic/phonological phenomena
07:55:09 <augur> that is Phonology
07:55:15 <Oranjer> what about you?
07:55:17 <augur> and the rest is sort of bootstrapped into language
07:55:25 <augur> i think phonology is boring and so i dont give a shit
07:55:37 <Oranjer> haha
07:55:49 <augur> tho if forced
07:55:56 <augur> it doesnt seem to be NECESSARY
07:56:04 <madbr> augur: more into grammar? semantics? :)
07:56:10 <Oranjer> syntax!
07:56:11 <augur> syntax and semantics, yep.
07:56:15 <Oranjer> yay
07:56:24 <Oranjer> sorry about confusing the defo's of those two before
07:56:28 <augur> if we were in ##compling seppbot would have said by now
07:56:32 <augur> "Chomsky is cunnilingual!"
07:56:39 <Oranjer> ha
07:56:43 <augur> except...
07:56:46 <augur> seppbot isnt there
07:56:46 <augur> wtf
07:56:58 <augur> noones there except rziai
07:57:12 <Oranjer> :O
07:57:24 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you have to say about linguistics?
07:57:25 <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
07:57:35 <Oranjer> whoa
07:57:43 <Oranjer> that makes sense
07:57:53 <Asztal> it even has matched parentheses
07:57:59 <Oranjer> amazing
07:58:05 <Oranjer> hello, Asztal!
07:58:15 <Asztal> hello
07:58:43 <augur> uh
07:58:45 <madbr> augur: eh, yeah, phonetics are definitely less vast than those fields
07:58:47 <augur> Asztal
07:58:56 <augur> it has matched parens because it took it from a quote it has stored.
07:59:08 <augur> madbr: its not that phonetics and phonology are less vast
07:59:22 <augur> two paraphrase richard larson
07:59:30 <augur> if it turns out that they're right, so what?
07:59:35 <Oranjer> haha
07:59:45 <madbr> eh
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:16 <Oranjer> fungot, your thoughts on phonology?
08:00:18 <fungot> Oranjer: i've removed the note. --user:jayhenryjayhenry 17:38, 15 march 2007 ( utc)'" i think it would be nice if all the matter in the work of her party of government, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals fnord, because of his bias, his view is very helpful in understanding some of what has been reported on th
08:00:39 <Oranjer> uh
08:00:41 <madbr> true, doesn't have too many deep psychological impacts
08:00:42 <Oranjer> ^style
08:00:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube
08:00:53 <augur> it doesnt have ANY psychological impacts
08:00:58 <Oranjer> ^style lovecraft
08:00:58 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
08:01:03 <Oranjer> yay fungot
08:01:04 <fungot> Oranjer: st john is a mangled corpse; i alone know why, and such words as sabaoth, metraton on agla fnord,
08:01:09 <Oranjer> :O
08:01:54 <madbr> augur: on the other hand it's much easier to verify, I guess
08:02:05 <augur> sure, i guess
08:02:07 <Oranjer> haha
08:02:11 <Oranjer> easy funding!!!
08:02:16 <augur> so is geography
08:02:54 <madbr> like, if you analyze a language, eventually you get a phonology with N phonemes
08:02:57 <augur> im not interested in phonology.
08:03:18 <Oranjer> :O
08:03:23 <Oranjer> haha
08:03:27 <Oranjer> morphemes!
08:03:33 <Oranjer> graphemes!
08:03:35 <Oranjer> mythemes!
08:03:36 <augur> morphemes no
08:03:38 <augur> graphemes no
08:03:41 <Oranjer> awwww
08:03:42 <augur> mythemes, thats not even linguistics
08:03:46 <Oranjer> heh
08:03:49 <augur> graphemes thats only marginally linguistic
08:03:50 <madbr> graphemes is the written version of phonemes
08:03:57 <Oranjer> yeppo
08:04:24 <madbr> they're not very deep either
08:04:55 <Oranjer> well, depth is largely dependent more on how time we've spent on them, eh?
08:05:01 <madbr> dunno, i have a hard time with semantics
08:05:11 <Oranjer> yay augur can help you!
08:06:05 <augur> yes, i can
08:06:13 <madbr> i can deal with the slighty fuzzy logic of, say, music theory or even phonetics, but semantics are on a whole other scale :D
08:06:26 <Oranjer> yaaaaaaay
08:06:30 <Oranjer> bisociation!
08:06:42 <augur> what
08:07:36 <Oranjer> the theory that creativity comes from the juxtaposition of seeing one thing in regards to two separate systems
08:07:47 <madbr> as for grammar... well, let's say that having two different classes about it with two completely different analysis of french one semester was a tad scary :)
08:08:34 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Creation
08:08:39 <madbr> one was a syntax class with some kinda generativist-derived stuff
08:08:39 <Oranjer> a little summary
08:09:29 <madbr> the other had a completely different system that the teacher referred to as "semantic grammar" I think
08:09:36 <Oranjer> so, the teacher taught both in the same class, at the same time? what?
08:09:44 <madbr> no, two different teachers
08:09:48 <Oranjer> oh, ha
08:10:04 <Oranjer> my guess would have been a better class, me thinks
08:10:05 <madbr> different teaching approaches and stuff
08:10:58 <Oranjer> meh
08:11:00 <madbr> the second one obviously liked verbose stuff, including stuff that would be much better expressed as a diagram
08:11:08 <Oranjer> :O
08:11:21 <Oranjer> I would love a teacher that taught soley with dynamic diagrams
08:11:38 <Oranjer> diagrammatic reasoning!!! yaaaaay!
08:11:44 <madbr> first one was, well, turn a sentence into a tree
08:11:56 <madbr> make sure you do it right
08:12:09 <augur> semantic grammar :|
08:12:12 <Oranjer> heh
08:12:13 <augur> he better not have used that term :|
08:12:18 <augur> thats mine! >|
08:12:21 <Oranjer> haha
08:12:24 <Oranjer> angry vclops
08:12:28 <madbr> I should check
08:12:36 <Oranjer> or is vclops always angry?
08:12:39 <Oranjer> >>|
08:12:47 <augur> well, theres a computational thing called that
08:12:50 <ehird> `addquote <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:12:50 <fungot> ehird: and up the hill.
08:12:53 <HackEgo> 95|<fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:13:02 <augur> but its pretty un-used afaik
08:13:07 <augur> and not well documented
08:13:12 <Oranjer> ha
08:13:27 <Oranjer> ehird, why document the random gibberings of an old bot?
08:13:35 <ehird> why not
08:13:39 <Oranjer> okay
08:13:40 <Oranjer> sure
08:13:52 <ehird> not significantly worse than the other 94 quotes
08:13:58 <Oranjer> haha
08:14:00 <madbr> augur: it had concepts like nominal substantives and determniation relationships
08:14:10 <augur> im not sure that those mean :D
08:14:20 <madbr> nominal substantives = nouns
08:14:39 <Oranjer> haha
08:14:58 <Oranjer> are there other kinds of substantives?
08:14:59 <madbr> determination relationships = the relationship between nouns, articles, adjectives, nominal complements...
08:15:14 <madbr> yes, adjectival substantives
08:15:18 <madbr> ie adjectives
08:15:20 <Oranjer> anymore?
08:15:31 <Oranjer> what is a substantive, anyway? the word itself?
08:15:42 <madbr> it's an old latin term for noun I think
08:15:52 <Oranjer> uhhhh
08:15:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
08:16:01 <Oranjer> hello, Firefly
08:16:06 <Oranjer> I just watched Serenity
08:16:11 <madbr> he also had a distinction between verbal substantive and verbal adjective
08:16:21 <Oranjer> :O
08:16:26 <Oranjer> are those real things?
08:16:31 <Oranjer> what ARE they?
08:16:43 <madbr> oh yeah, it was nominal adjective for adjectives, not the other thing I said
08:16:55 <augur> sounds pretty useless man
08:17:09 <FireFly> Hello, Oranjer
08:17:11 <FireFly> Hm, sounds like I jumped into some interesting conversation
08:17:16 <madbr> oranjer: well, the distinction is that the substantive was the sentence's topic but the adjective wasn't
08:17:41 <Oranjer> so, subjects and compliments and adjuncts?
08:18:06 <madbr> augur: well, the determination relationship stuff worked but some other stuff was a bit crazy
08:18:19 <augur> no i mean
08:18:25 <augur> the whole thing just seems stupid
08:18:32 <augur> "nominal substantive"
08:18:34 <Oranjer> "seems stupid"
08:18:35 <augur> just uckin say noun
08:18:37 <Oranjer> heh
08:18:42 <Oranjer> yeah, I agree about that
08:18:47 <Oranjer> ALTHOUGH
08:18:58 <augur> when you go through the trouble of obfuscating well established terms for no good reason, its usually because youre full of shit
08:19:19 <Oranjer> I always found using new names, names that, perhaps, reveal alternatives within it, are useful
08:19:33 <Oranjer> like, a noun is a noun, but when you define it as a "nominal substantive"
08:19:45 <Oranjer> you leave the door open for other types of "substantives"
08:19:55 <Oranjer> and other things described as "nominal"
08:20:04 <Oranjer> I dunno, I find it useful
08:21:13 <Oranjer> no thoughts on that? sorry, mates
08:21:15 <Oranjer> :(
08:21:29 <madbr> it had [nominal,verbal,pronominal,participle,modal,another one i can't remember] x [substantive,adjective]
08:21:32 <augur> uh
08:21:32 <augur> yeah
08:21:35 <augur> theyre aled words.
08:21:41 <Oranjer> aled?
08:21:44 <augur> called*
08:21:58 <Oranjer> oh
08:22:02 <augur> calling something a substantive only makes sense if substantive actually means something
08:22:07 <Oranjer> yes
08:22:08 <Oranjer> but!
08:22:25 <Oranjer> you define what "substantive" means by those things you use that word to describe, eh?
08:22:30 <Oranjer> haha! delightful
08:22:39 <augur> thats stupid
08:22:46 <Oranjer> *sigh*
08:22:46 <madbr> augur: yeah, in that particular case it was something like "the word has a base meaning instead of just deriving another word's meaning"
08:22:47 <augur> really stupid
08:22:57 <augur> ...
08:23:02 <augur> theres a word for that already too.
08:23:03 <Oranjer> augur, do you...actually create anything?
08:23:09 <augur> its called a root.
08:23:12 <augur> yes, oranjer, i do.
08:23:14 <Oranjer> :O
08:23:22 <Oranjer> :( what? )
08:23:32 <madbr> augur: I said it the wrong way around
08:23:57 <madbr> "red" is a root but in that particular system it would be an "adjective", not "substantive"
08:24:17 <Oranjer> sounds ontological
08:24:48 <augur> what
08:25:01 <Oranjer> yeah, madbr, what?
08:25:10 <madbr> I think the distinction was that a "substantive" referred to at least a base set of concepts, while an "adjective" doesn't have a base set and is more subtractive in nature
08:25:21 <Oranjer> oooo subtractive
08:25:24 <Oranjer> that's a good one
08:26:40 <madbr> anyways, the generativist "let's make trees" class was easier :D
08:26:45 <Oranjer> also, madbr, what if we added "quasimodal" to that permutation you described earlier?
08:26:57 <madbr> what would that be
08:27:00 <Oranjer> quasimodal substantive!
08:27:04 <Oranjer> I dunno, let's define it
08:27:06 <madbr> ..
08:27:17 <Oranjer> I know what quasimodal means, of course
08:27:29 <Oranjer> Jef Raskin did that stuff
08:27:52 <ehird> i love hci let's talk about some more hci also operating systems since i like operating systems well not current operating systems but
08:27:55 <ehird> hell LO
08:27:57 <madbr> i think the real problem was something more like "its the teacher's own system" or something like that
08:27:59 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28computer_interface%29#Quasimodes
08:28:06 <Oranjer> oh
08:28:06 <ehird> i should probably eat to sustain me until i decide i should bed myself
08:28:18 <Oranjer> ewww ehird's gonna bed himself
08:28:24 <ehird> :|
08:28:25 <ehird> stfu
08:28:32 <Oranjer> :{}
08:28:38 <augur> madbr
08:28:42 <ehird> anyway the problem with quasimodes is hand fatigue.
08:28:43 <augur> it sounds like you were doing morphology
08:28:44 <augur> not syntax
08:28:59 <Oranjer> yeah, that's a problem, ehird
08:29:18 <ehird> in fact, modifier keys are pretty much broken
08:29:23 <Oranjer> I thought of a solution, though
08:29:31 <augur> ehird, i like modifier keys :|
08:29:32 <ehird> Ctrl+x isn't more than a millisecond faster than Ctrl, x
08:29:36 <Oranjer> :O I LOVE modifier keys!
08:29:42 <ehird> and your hand will like you for more years with the latter
08:29:43 <Oranjer> hah, augur, we agree on something!
08:29:48 <ehird> not the concept of modifier keys, they are fine
08:29:50 <ehird> i mean the way you execute it
08:29:53 <Oranjer> yeah
08:29:55 <ehird> by holding it down and hitting another key
08:29:56 <Oranjer> BUT
08:29:58 <ehird> that's broken, ergonomically
08:30:03 <augur> except ehird, what about sequences?
08:30:06 <Oranjer> I found a possible solution
08:30:15 <ehird> it may be obvious, but we need to think of something just as good that doesn't wreck our hands
08:30:17 <ehird> augur: like what
08:30:20 <augur> also, how is it ergonomically broken
08:30:22 <Oranjer> meh, sequences might introduce modal errors
08:30:24 <augur> use the right command key, fool.
08:30:27 <ehird> i'd explain, but i cba to explain
08:30:28 <ehird> also, you fail
08:30:37 <Oranjer> what, ehird?
08:30:39 <augur> or control
08:30:39 <ehird> anyway sequences are easy
08:30:41 <augur> same thing
08:30:47 <augur> thats why theres two sets
08:30:48 <ehird> ctrl, alt, x is perfectly unambiguous
08:30:52 <ehird> augur
08:30:53 <ehird> please shut up
08:31:00 <ehird> you're showing your lack of ergonomic knowledge
08:31:01 <ehird> stop that
08:31:03 <augur> thank you for agreeing that you're wrong
08:31:11 <ehird> admittedly i don't have much, but more than you
08:31:14 <Oranjer> sequences would only work if it is completely unambiguous where you are in the sequence
08:31:21 <augur> also, ive been using a computer longer than you and ive never had issues with the ergonomics of command keys
08:31:27 <augur> ive never heard anyone else complain
08:31:28 <augur> so
08:31:30 <augur> you're full of shit
08:31:34 <ehird> hahahahahahahaha
08:31:35 <augur> but then, you're only 14
08:31:35 <augur> so
08:31:40 <augur> its to be expected!
08:31:43 <ehird> i'm sorry augur, can i repeat your argument
08:31:47 <Oranjer> now now, calling names and yelling "Ignorant fool! your children will be cursed with Gay!" at each other!
08:31:50 <Oranjer> dammit
08:32:01 <Oranjer> *is no way to have an argument!
08:32:02 <augur> oranjer, you're new to #esoteric
08:32:05 <ehird> "I have personally used computers for some more years than you, and I have not yet had hand problems, therefore all of currently-accepted ergonomics is wrong"
08:32:07 <ehird> augur
08:32:09 <ehird> gtfo
08:32:10 <ehird> stu
08:32:13 <ehird> *stfu
08:32:13 <Oranjer> ahhhhhhhhh
08:32:14 <ehird> diaf
08:32:15 <ehird> kthxbai
08:32:17 <augur> this is how we do things here in esoland
08:32:21 <Oranjer> no more acronyms pl0x
08:32:35 <augur> ehird and i are actually boyfriends, he's sitting a few feet from me.
08:32:39 <Oranjer> :O
08:32:40 <augur> its all part of the fun of being on irc
08:32:41 <ehird> "get the fuck out, shut the fuck up, die in a fire, kay thanks bye"; it's basically my way of saying QED
08:32:44 <ehird> also, augur is a liar.
08:32:45 <madbr> well, alt,f4 is a bit more dangerous than alt+f4 :D
08:32:47 <ehird> a dirty liar.
08:32:57 <augur> i am but what does he know?
08:33:04 <Oranjer> ANYWAY
08:33:11 <ehird> long-term what we need is direct-brain interfaces — erm, backtrack —
08:33:14 <Oranjer> are we gonna start suggesting solutions?
08:33:17 <ehird> long-term what we need is to get rid of input and output devices
08:33:20 <Oranjer> yes, ehird, short term
08:33:21 <ehird> and have them be the same thing
08:33:30 <ehird> but unless you want to give up on haptic feedback, at the moment, you can't do that
08:33:34 <ehird> so
08:33:35 <augur> i agree tho that command keys could probably be done like that ehird.
08:33:36 <augur> :T
08:33:41 <madbr> interface problems? hmmm
08:33:41 <ehird> we have to make do with the reality of i/o separation
08:33:49 <ehird> augur: in fact you can enable stickykeys in windows to get this
08:33:50 <Oranjer> dammit yes
08:33:54 <ehird> the founder of emacswiki does it
08:33:57 <Oranjer> yuck stickykeys
08:33:59 <ehird> Oranjer: what was that dammit yes to?
08:34:06 -!- kar8nga has joined.
08:34:11 <Oranjer> I dunno, ehird
08:34:18 <augur> you know
08:34:22 <Oranjer> it just seems that we're doing this wrongly
08:34:24 <augur> sticky keys never seemed to work right for me
08:34:28 <augur> but then
08:34:28 <Oranjer> incorrectiful
08:34:31 <augur> i was on ME when i tried it
08:34:32 <augur> so...
08:34:34 <ehird> yeah, well, that's windowsfor you
08:34:38 <ehird> *windows for
08:34:42 <ehird> fuck this keyboard
08:34:46 <Oranjer> haha
08:34:50 <Oranjer> okay
08:34:53 <ehird> keybosexual
08:34:55 <Oranjer> what if we had sequences
08:34:58 <Oranjer> but
08:35:03 <madbr> keyboards are fast but they require memorizing
08:35:04 <Oranjer> the display on each key
08:35:09 <ehird> madbr: ah, but not inherently
08:35:11 <ehird> key bindings do
08:35:15 <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:35:18 <madbr> mouses are slow but they don't require as much memorization
08:35:21 <ehird> but not a command-based (or "linguistic") interface
08:35:23 <ehird> that's less efficient, though
08:35:26 <ehird> madbr: please
08:35:28 <ehird> stop generalisiing
08:35:33 <ehird> what you are saying is keybinding vs WIMP
08:35:35 <ehird> not keyboard vs mouse
08:35:39 <ehird> neither r are desirable
08:35:43 <ehird> *drop that whole r word
08:35:49 <Oranjer> like, when I press "control", the "X" key changes to display "cut"
08:35:52 <Oranjer> or whatever
08:35:54 <augur> mouses are known to be in no way significantly faster overall. research has already established this.
08:35:55 <ehird> *generalising
08:35:56 <madbr> dunno, I like keyboards
08:35:56 <ehird> Oranjer: no no no
08:35:59 <ehird> Oranjer: touch-type, man
08:36:01 <ehird> madbr: yes
08:36:01 <Oranjer> why not, ehird?
08:36:04 <Oranjer> oh, right
08:36:05 <ehird> madbr: keyboard != keybinding
08:36:06 <Oranjer> damn
08:36:08 <augur> er
08:36:11 <augur> significantly slower**
08:36:19 <FireFly> [09:35:15] <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:36:23 <madbr> well, how are you going to use a keyboard without keybinding?
08:36:23 <FireFly> Optimus Maximus?
08:36:26 <ehird> augur: true but also untrue
08:36:27 <FireFly> A bit too expensive for me
08:36:27 <ehird> LISTEN
08:36:28 <augur> infact they're faster over all. they just /seem/ slower because the cognitive load is lower.
08:36:28 <Oranjer> haha
08:36:28 <ehird> SHUT UP
08:36:29 <ehird> SHUT TUP
08:36:30 <ehird> LISTEN
08:36:31 <ehird> just
08:36:32 <ehird> listen
08:36:33 <augur> ehird
08:36:35 <Oranjer> no, there would be LED's
08:36:36 <Oranjer> haha
08:36:37 <ehird> listen
08:36:38 <augur> only your cock will shut me up
08:36:40 <Oranjer> okay, ehird
08:36:40 <ehird> augur
08:36:45 <ehird> what you are saying is
08:36:48 <augur> btw, have you seen moon?
08:36:54 <Oranjer> I have not
08:36:55 <ehird> "WIMP-style mouse interfaces" are faster than "keybindings to WIMP menu items"
08:36:58 <ehird> YES this is true
08:37:00 <Oranjer> I will now go outside and look at it
08:37:04 <Oranjer> PIE MENUS
08:37:08 <ehird> but overall, a keyboard can be faster FOR THE THINGS IT EXCELS at, if given a system designed for it:
08:37:12 <ehird> a linguistic, or command interface
08:37:13 <Oranjer> they allow for both beginners and experts!
08:37:14 <Oranjer> yay
08:37:20 <ehird> by automating tasks, it can be significantly faster than a mouse
08:37:20 <ehird> so
08:37:21 <ehird> yes
08:37:22 <ehird> what you say is true
08:37:24 <ehird> for current GUIs
08:37:25 <ehird> however
08:37:31 <ehird> it is useless for designing future UIs
08:37:36 <Oranjer> NUI NUI
08:37:36 <ehird> and misleading to say the least
08:37:47 <Oranjer> also, Everyware
08:37:51 <augur> moon is an ... interesting movie
08:37:55 <Oranjer> oh, ha!
08:38:00 <augur> ehird, yes, well ofcourse
08:38:01 <Oranjer> I still wanna see the moon, though
08:38:02 <Oranjer> see ya
08:38:09 <madbr> well, what magic solution are you going to come up to deal with the fact that you need a way to access each command, eh?
08:38:17 <augur> its faster for a keyboard interface
08:38:24 <augur> its all in context
08:38:44 <augur> tho arguably a sufficiently complex CLI will probably still be slower for the same tasks
08:38:55 <ehird> augur: are you suggesting that a fully expressive, well-designed command/linguistic interface (therefore supporting automation) would be slower than slogging through repetitive grunt-and-clicks?
08:39:04 <augur> tho i suppose it would depend on the full keyboard arrangement you could construct
08:39:13 <ehird> because, really, the only way i can make that true in my head is by assuming either a really retarded command/linguistic interface or a magical mouse (HEY APPLE)
08:39:15 <ehird> but
08:39:17 <ehird> i don't mean like unix cli
08:39:24 <augur> oh ok
08:39:29 <ehird> text is limited, and the unix cli syntax is untenable for really quick activation
08:39:39 <augur> well everyone i know who argues about this shit is CLI-whoring
08:39:40 <augur> so
08:39:42 <ehird> i'm thinking of a completion system, where you can have keybindings and then type on to disambiguate
08:39:49 <ehird> with rich objects that know what they can do
08:39:52 <ehird> and can order by the most common item
08:40:06 <ehird> that's a linguistic interface, not a dumb text-command-to-text-output-with-text-streams-oh-joy unix crapfest
08:40:13 <Oranjer> what's CLI? also, it's the wrong time to see the moon here
08:40:15 <augur> so who wants to learn about semantics? :X
08:40:20 <augur> command-line interface
08:40:22 <ehird> Oranjer: command-line interface
08:40:23 <Oranjer> thanks
08:40:26 <augur> oranjer, not THE moon
08:40:28 <augur> "Moon"
08:40:29 <augur> the movie
08:40:31 <Oranjer> I know, augur
08:40:34 <ehird> augur: that thing you said that would be useful for a quicksilver thing, you should talk to me about that sometime; i'd actually listen for once
08:40:36 <Oranjer> but I wanted to see the moon anyway
08:40:47 <Oranjer> Spontaneity! WHOOOOO
08:40:49 <augur> which thing
08:40:54 <ehird> augur: eh you mentioned it
08:40:57 <augur> the agent program?
08:41:00 <ehird> yeah
08:41:04 <augur> oh. awesome.
08:41:17 <augur> i was actually about to ask you if you wanted to work on something like that but decided you would probably not want to
08:41:44 <madbr> ?
08:41:49 <ehird> i think for it to know the inner workings of programs would probably require my OSs detached objects, instead of programs, so I'm totally for co-opting that
08:41:52 <ehird> of course, that's rather long-term...
08:42:02 <ehird> working on it for an existing OS could be fun though.
08:42:17 <augur> well, the hooks into the OS would be something like what you can do with QS and automator right now
08:42:22 <ehird> i don't think any of them provide the sort of toes-curled-up-in-soil deep inspection that'd be needed
08:42:27 <augur> the scripting hooks that already exist
08:42:31 <ehird> augur: right, but they don't go very deep, really
08:42:34 <augur> sure
08:42:45 <ehird> I mean, I can't accomplish much of what i want to do with quicksilver at all
08:42:46 <augur> but we'll do what we can with what we've got
08:42:53 <augur> what do you want to do
08:42:54 <augur> ?
08:43:01 <madbr> what are you even talking about
08:43:03 <ehird> co-opt the ideas into my OS, naturally.
08:43:20 <Oranjer> that's what they're talking about, madbr
08:43:22 <ehird> it's, amusingly, almost perfectly designed for the kind of hooks that'd be required
08:43:24 <augur> in what sense, ehird
08:43:36 <Oranjer> COLLABORATION!
08:43:41 <Oranjer> yaaay
08:43:41 <ehird> take your shit and apply it to my OS interface research
08:43:46 <Oranjer> constructiveness
08:43:47 <ehird> not... your literal shit
08:43:53 <augur> oh i see
08:44:05 <ehird> in fact, the focus on objects and the abolishment of programs, I think, is helpful
08:44:07 <augur> so have an OS that is, from the core up, built with that sort of exposure in mind
08:44:10 <ehird> nobody thinks in programs or talks about progarms
08:44:12 <ehird> *programs
08:44:19 <augur> omg
08:44:20 <augur> ehird wait
08:44:22 <Oranjer> I think in programs
08:44:22 <ehird> they think about things, combining things, making them act with other things
08:44:26 <madbr> abolishment of programs?
08:44:28 <augur> so you want to do data-oriented OS design
08:44:32 <augur> rather than program-oriented?
08:44:35 <ehird> Oranjer: when on a computer, yes, because it's co-opted you to its evil
08:44:37 <Oranjer> YES abolishment of programs!
08:44:37 <ehird> augur: Yes.
08:44:51 <Oranjer> wait, Jef Raskin made a good article on this, madbr
08:44:51 <augur> where data is primary, and you just have external services that hook into it on the fly and do whatever you need to do
08:44:55 <Oranjer> linky coming up
08:44:58 <ehird> Rich, smart data with multiple interfaces! Viva la somethingution.
08:45:00 <ehird> augur: YES
08:45:03 <ehird> augur: Yes yes yes yes yes
08:45:05 <augur> marry me :(
08:45:05 <ehird> augur: <3
08:45:07 <madbr> abolishment of programs sounds like a rather radical agenda
08:45:07 <ehird> ok
08:45:13 <augur> ive been looking for someone to work with on this kind of thing for like
08:45:14 <ehird> madbr: My OS is rather radical...
08:45:15 <augur> THREE YEARS
08:45:28 <ehird> madbr: For a start it also does away with C!
08:45:30 <Oranjer> hey, augur, we all agree programs are bad
08:45:37 <ehird> UNTRUE
08:45:39 <ehird> MADBR IS UNSURE
08:45:40 <ehird> I THINK
08:45:41 <Oranjer> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.06/1.6_guis.html
08:45:44 <augur> shut up oranjer the grown ups are talking
08:45:49 <ehird> xD
08:45:51 <Oranjer> (:()
08:45:59 <Oranjer> haha
08:46:03 <madbr> well, the other kind of separation of code I know of is plug-ins
08:46:16 <augur> so ehird, i want to do this
08:46:37 <ehird> madbr: stop thinking in code
08:46:40 <ehird> think about the data, the documents
08:46:46 <ehird> and them knowing the code
08:46:48 <Oranjer> data documents!
08:46:50 <ehird> haha i'm lolling at that jef raskin article
08:46:51 <ehird> he's like
08:46:59 <ehird> "you know that mac thing i designed? desktop icons pointy clicky menus?"
08:47:00 <madbr> ok, suppose I have a song
08:47:00 <ehird> "FUCK"
08:47:01 <augur> ehird, i think that like
08:47:01 <ehird> "THAT"
08:47:02 <madbr> then what
08:47:03 <ehird> "SHIT"
08:47:04 <Oranjer> haha
08:47:08 <ehird> madbr: most vague statement ever
08:47:15 <Oranjer> hahahaha
08:47:16 <augur> haskell-like data orientation is kind of the programming equivalent of this idea
08:47:18 <madbr> let's say a .mid
08:47:26 <ehird> madbr: shush the grownups are talking
08:47:31 <ehird> EVERYTHING WILL BECOME CLEAR!
08:47:34 <madbr> pff
08:47:36 <augur> and that might be a good programming environment for that sort of task too
08:47:44 <ehird> augur: i'm of a slightly more object-oriented persuation
08:47:50 <augur> thats fine
08:47:54 <ehird> the original smalltalk is still, in my opinion, unsurpassed as an OS.
08:48:06 <augur> probably
08:48:08 <Oranjer> google time
08:48:13 <augur> i would like to see something thats smalltalky
08:48:15 <augur> but at the same time
08:48:22 <augur> has the symmetry of data-oriented programming
08:48:27 <ehird> that sounds cool
08:48:30 <ehird> i think the project demands a new language anyway
08:48:35 <augur> awesome
08:48:38 <ehird> it's a clean slate, and it's very different to the usual crop
08:48:46 <ehird> and there'll be scarce compatibility anyway
08:48:55 <ehird> so why not make something tailored
08:49:03 <augur> we can always compile to C
08:49:06 <ehird> noooooooooooo
08:49:08 <ehird> non nonono nonononono
08:49:11 <augur> aww
08:49:12 <augur> ok.
08:49:19 <ehird> i have very strong opinions on this and lots of thought processes :P
08:49:26 <augur> we could compile to zimbu!
08:49:27 <augur> XD
08:49:33 <ehird> let's compile ... to lojban
08:49:37 <augur> oh god
08:49:39 <ehird> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
08:49:42 <ehird> human
08:49:43 <ehird> OS
08:49:45 <ehird> whooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaa
08:50:04 <ehird> http://www.zimbu.org/
08:50:05 <ehird> what the hell is this shit
08:50:07 <augur> but then all the lojbanists will be perfectly suited to run it
08:50:12 <augur> its horrible is what it is ehird
08:50:14 <ehird> an interpreted language isn't suitable to write a text editor? lol
08:50:18 <ehird> what a bunch of bullshit
08:51:37 <ehird> i'd love to design the hardware from scratch too to remove all the bloat and crap and bullshit that i'll have to deal with on the x86, but that's just not practical
08:51:45 <Oranjer> DO it
08:52:06 <ehird> hardware design is really not my thing
08:52:11 <madbr> evict all the integers and make it floating point-based
08:52:12 <Oranjer> oh okay
08:52:15 <ehird> and it raises the barrier to entry oh so much
08:52:20 <Oranjer> yeah...
08:52:22 <Oranjer> :(
08:52:23 <madbr> then make it compile to FPU stack code
08:52:30 <ehird> instead of downloading some free software and booting to it, you have to buy some $500 pile of hardware and flash it all
08:52:31 <Oranjer> what uhhh what madbr what
08:53:04 <madbr> beagle board could be a choice no?
08:53:52 <Oranjer> haha what
08:54:01 <Oranjer> "single chip computer"
08:54:04 <Oranjer> nice
08:54:06 <Oranjer> I guess?
08:55:02 <madbr> it's a world of vlsi integration and systems on a chip
08:55:08 <Oranjer> :O
08:55:46 <Oranjer> also, ehird, can't you eventually replace pie menus with eye movement during a quasimode?
08:56:14 <madbr> but yeah you could evict integers from your design... floating point is longer to calculate with but these days chips have so many transistors that it's not the bottleneck anymore
08:56:18 <ehird> controlling eye movement isn't very natural or easy
08:56:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:57:25 <madbr> that's why some languages only have floating point (lua, javascript...)
08:57:48 <Oranjer> hmmm
08:58:08 <ehird> floating point is shit
08:58:09 <ehird> i hate it
08:58:12 <Oranjer> finger pointing?
08:58:18 <ehird> it's not useful for aaaaaaaaaanythign
08:58:21 <ehird> :P
08:58:46 <madbr> floating point is THE shit
08:58:55 <madbr> <3
08:59:04 <Oranjer> heh
08:59:24 <Oranjer> what I've seen of it is a gain in effectiveness and a loss in efficiency
09:00:23 <madbr> well, sound processing switched to floating point because sound processing uses lots of multiplications, and on the original pentium floating point multiplication was afaik faster than integer multiplication even
09:00:34 <Oranjer> APL
09:01:29 <madbr> a couple of old plugin interfaces started using float and it stuck
09:02:16 <madbr> but it's extremely useful because you don't have to build headroom into anything anymore
09:02:43 <Oranjer> E-prime
09:02:57 <Oranjer> Fungot, what do you think?
09:03:05 <Oranjer> uh it is broken
09:03:07 <Oranjer> fungot
09:03:08 <fungot> Oranjer: you recall that pickman's fnord was faces. i don't wish to offend you, and haue longe fnord upon ye way of get'g backe after ye laste. i laste night fnord on ye n. side of olney's court. distance from boston stone fnord. fnord fnord and from the titanic flat roof, with its curious illustrations by the brothers de fnord, composed in fnord but after a hypodermic injection it became more regular.
09:03:11 <Oranjer> ahhhhhhh
09:03:33 -!- kar8nga has joined.
09:03:56 <Oranjer> geez you bot that's a lot of fnords what are you saying this is supposed to be depressing? geez
09:04:18 <madbr> e-prime is silly
09:05:12 <madbr> english has sufficient mechanisms to deal with different degrees of evidentiality
09:05:29 <Oranjer> bah! they're hardly mandatory
09:06:06 <madbr> that's because you don't always need to express evidentiality
09:06:19 <madbr> sometimes it's totally besides point
09:06:21 <Oranjer> I would say that you would, to avoid conflict
09:06:30 <Oranjer> yeah, yeah, artistic license
09:06:52 <madbr> well, why do you think people say "afaik" and "i think" all the time? :D
09:07:01 <Oranjer> heh
09:07:14 <madbr> there was even someone lamenting the use of that kind of stuff by politicians
09:07:19 <Oranjer> but that's only to express explicit uncertainty
09:07:22 <Oranjer> oh?
09:07:26 <Oranjer> HA AH!
09:07:35 <Oranjer> make all legal documents in e-prime!
09:07:55 <Oranjer> and make politicians use it! yaaaay!
09:08:51 <madbr> that's because less uncertainty is the default
09:09:05 <Oranjer> meh
09:09:36 <Oranjer> I still say I've seen it prevent apparent conflicts
09:09:46 <madbr> plus, you're missing how useful and expressive "to be" is in english
09:09:53 <Oranjer> yeah, I know
09:09:55 <Oranjer> it's a copula
09:10:03 <Oranjer> I only mean when we use it as a stative
09:10:09 <Oranjer> where nothing changes
09:10:25 <ehird> to be or not to be
09:10:27 <ehird> how do you say that in e-prime
09:10:29 <Oranjer> heh
09:10:37 <Oranjer> as I said before, artistic license
09:10:43 <madbr> pf
09:10:49 <Oranjer> also, other e-prime people have already done that
09:11:07 <Oranjer> but then, they merely removed the use of "to be"
09:11:19 <madbr> well, the grass is green
09:11:21 <Oranjer> I prefer focusing on removing statives
09:11:34 <madbr> what's the point
09:11:40 <Oranjer> oh? what does this green grass do? where'd you find it?
09:11:46 <Oranjer> to remove ambiguity
09:12:10 <madbr> it doesn't do anything
09:12:25 <Oranjer> "God exists!" "God doesn't exist!" *FIGHT* vs. "God exists, and I think that because..." "Well, I disagree on..." *NOT FIGHT*
09:12:46 <madbr> ....................................................................no
09:12:50 <Oranjer> haha
09:12:54 <Oranjer> do we fight now?
09:13:49 <madbr> like, how else would you express something like that
09:14:08 <Oranjer> how else would I express what?
09:14:10 <madbr> the grass is green
09:14:26 <Oranjer> quite simply, what information does that contain?
09:14:35 <madbr> the color of the grass
09:14:43 <Oranjer> exactly--the color according to who?
09:14:50 <madbr> me?
09:14:57 <Oranjer> "The grass appears green to me"
09:15:02 <Oranjer> of course
09:15:06 <augur> oh god are you kids talking about e-prime
09:15:10 <Oranjer> heh
09:15:12 <Oranjer> yeah, dad!
09:15:23 <madbr> oranjer: there's no point to that
09:15:25 <augur> the whole purpose of eprime is noble, but misguided
09:15:31 <Oranjer> bah!
09:15:37 <augur> also, removing "be" is a failure to achieve this goal.
09:15:45 <Oranjer> augur! I just talked about that!
09:15:53 <Oranjer> I only wish to remove stative verbs
09:15:54 <madbr> oranjer: plus you still have an attribute, except it's implicit
09:16:03 <Oranjer> uh what madbr
09:16:14 <augur> stative verbs arent the issue either
09:16:28 <Oranjer> what would you define the issue as, then, augur?
09:16:39 <Oranjer> ambiguity itself, I would guess?
09:16:39 <madbr> like, you could wrap any sentence that way
09:16:55 <Oranjer> true, madbr, but I would hardly call that creative
09:17:06 <augur> the fact that languages as a whole permit things like indicative mood, realis modality, and non-evidentiality
09:17:10 <madbr> "bob eats pork" -> "bob appears eating pork to me"
09:17:17 <augur> you could always just promote using quechua.
09:17:18 <Oranjer> heh
09:17:38 <Oranjer> I find "bob eats pork" none-too-distasteful
09:17:46 <Oranjer> hmmm...
09:17:50 <Oranjer> true, I see your point
09:17:54 <Oranjer> also, quechua?
09:17:56 <Oranjer> google time
09:18:03 <augur> quechua has evidentiality
09:18:07 <madbr> like, why is that ok but "the grass is green" not
09:18:10 <Oranjer> yay!
09:18:11 <augur> mandatory evidentiality, if i recall correctly
09:18:15 <Oranjer> thinking, madbr
09:18:24 <Oranjer> yeah, augur, I want mandatory evidentiality
09:18:38 <augur> it'll vanish in time due to natural changes in the language.
09:18:52 <Oranjer> awwwww
09:19:04 <augur> and even then
09:19:07 <Oranjer> I would hardly say such vanishing would help the sciences and arts
09:19:12 <augur> USING the RIGHT evidentiality marker is a choice people make
09:19:22 <Oranjer> true...hmmm
09:19:41 <augur> sometimes its necessary to say things are just this way, that its fact
09:19:50 <augur> ie in the sciences, vs. religion
09:20:03 <augur> and sometimes its necessary to lie
09:20:07 <Oranjer> heh
09:20:16 <augur> language is the way it is
09:20:32 <augur> trying to make a particular language better is a failure of understanding of what language does in the first place
09:20:57 <Oranjer> uh what ha ha ha!
09:21:05 <Oranjer> hahahahahahahHAhaahaahAHAHahAHAhA
09:21:32 <augur> and a failure to understand how languages work in reality
09:21:34 <Oranjer> It seems to me augur you just attempted to use the argument of the masses on me
09:21:38 <Oranjer> hahAHHahAaha
09:22:03 <augur> the argument of the masses?
09:22:09 <madbr> oranjer: you just don't get how efficient a language like english is
09:22:26 <Oranjer> not efficiency, madbr
09:22:30 <madbr> and how hard it is to beat something like english at being expressive
09:22:34 <Oranjer> effectiveness in dealing with the unknown
09:22:44 <augur> language isnt designed to deal with the unknown
09:22:49 <augur> and e-prime isnt either
09:22:54 <Oranjer> ha! touche
09:22:56 <augur> (by language, i mean the human language faculty)
09:23:24 <Oranjer> then we should create a means of communication that expressly takes the unknown into consideration! yaaaaaaaay!
09:23:30 <madbr> oranjer: then perhaps you could try your hand at adding evidentiality to english
09:23:36 <madbr> good luck btw
09:23:38 <augur> good luck oranjer
09:23:40 <Oranjer> heh, thanks
09:23:44 <augur> to do that you'd need to modify the brain.
09:23:48 <Oranjer> ha!
09:23:50 <Oranjer> says you
09:23:53 <augur> not really
09:23:59 <Oranjer> oh-ho-ho?
09:24:11 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers.").
09:24:14 <augur> if your brain does not already incorporate a mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, other than language, you cant do it
09:24:22 <augur> and language is the only thing anyone knows of that does this
09:24:30 <augur> if something else existed, we'd be using it already
09:24:37 <Oranjer> heh
09:24:58 <madbr> well, language does suffer from bandwidth limitations
09:25:09 <augur> to some extent
09:25:11 <augur> but consider
09:25:17 <augur> i can talk faster than i can type.
09:25:24 <augur> on the other hand, i can edit what i type before i talk
09:25:29 <augur> before i send* rather
09:25:30 <augur> (irony!)
09:25:33 <madbr> about 50 bits per second I think
09:25:54 <augur> depends on what you mean by that
09:26:07 <madbr> that's how much bandwidth I think language tends to have
09:26:31 <madbr> probably up to 100 bits if you go really fast but I mean it as an order of magnitude
09:26:32 <augur> perhaps
09:26:41 <augur> probably less, actually
09:26:45 <augur> i mean
09:26:57 <augur> maybe not
09:26:58 <augur> but
09:27:08 <ehird> My giraffe fucked the horse's bright pink wound scabbing up with green oil.
09:27:10 <augur> the way languages are structured, the phonological information is the important stuff
09:27:12 <ehird> how many bits is thaat?
09:27:13 <ehird> *that
09:27:15 <augur> and phonologies are entirely language internal
09:27:22 <madbr> well, if you condider that a normal syllable rate for something like english or french is something like 6 syllables / second
09:27:24 <ehird> (also, wow that sentence is disturbing)
09:27:25 <ehird> i mean
09:27:27 <ehird> i never even... notcied
09:27:40 <augur> so you only have to count the phonological content being shuttled around
09:27:47 <augur> which might be less than 50 bits per second
09:27:53 <madbr> and from the size of the phonetic inventories of such languages you get something like 8 bits/syllable
09:27:59 <augur> uh no
09:28:02 <Oranjer> ehird, that reminds me of a scene in David Cronenberg's "Crash"
09:28:05 <augur> you get more than 8 bits per syllable
09:28:09 <ehird> BUT HOW MANY BITS IS IT
09:28:49 <madbr> augur: well, for a CVC syllable, sure
09:28:49 <augur> english has around 40 sounds, with syllables upwards of 5 sounds each
09:28:49 <augur> but again this depends on how you count your dat
09:28:49 <augur> data
09:28:51 <Oranjer> why can't the short version of "vowel" itself be a vowel? like, a?
09:28:51 <madbr> but more complex syllables have a speed hit
09:28:53 <Oranjer> CAC
09:29:07 <madbr> it's something like 1.5x slower for CVC vs CV in French
09:29:17 <Oranjer> CAC vs CA in French
09:29:24 <madbr> english is timed differently but it probably comes down to something similar
09:29:26 <Oranjer> anyway, I must go to sleep now
09:29:38 <augur> you'd have to do a proper study dude
09:29:40 <Oranjer> thanks for the...topic talking? :O
09:29:41 <augur> and i dont have one
09:29:52 <madbr> well, french is a bit easier to count
09:29:58 <Oranjer> :( good night! (night for me) )
09:30:01 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
09:30:09 <madbr> ~20 consonants, ~16 vowels
09:30:48 <madbr> of course the frequencies are skewed, but if you compute the bit contents of skewed inventories they don't actually lose much information
09:31:28 <madbr> so that means you get around a byte of info per syllable, give or take 2 bits probably
09:32:04 -!- Asztal has quit (Success).
09:32:13 <madbr> although something else I've read talked about 1 bit per letter
09:32:17 <madbr> anyways, night
09:32:28 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur").
09:51:01 -!- adam_d has joined.
10:08:28 <ehird> boo
10:17:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:42:54 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
10:54:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:57:48 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:21:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:22:04 -!- kar8nga has joined.
11:27:22 -!- FireFly[DS] has joined.
11:31:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:34:16 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit (Nick collision from services.).
11:47:42 -!- oklopol has joined.
11:50:07 <ehird> using an operating system through a text-to-speech thingy is hard
11:50:07 <ehird> for blinders people
11:50:13 <oklopol> you're hard.
11:55:24 <ehird> oklopol: :|
11:55:29 <ehird> vertica vertica vertical line
11:59:09 <ehird> selection deleted
11:59:41 <ehird> greenity
11:59:44 <ehird> oklopol: say something
12:00:27 <oklopol> should i!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:00:44 <ehird> colloquy fails beautifully at telling the speech user about shit that happens!
12:12:24 -!- ehirdtalk has joined.
12:13:42 <ehird> test
12:13:44 <ehird> test
12:13:50 <oerjan> FAIL!
12:13:52 <ehird> test
12:13:55 <ehird> test
12:13:55 <ehird> tetst
12:13:56 <ehird> est
12:14:08 <oerjan> l'ouest
12:14:52 -!- ehirdtalk has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:16:59 <ehird> it'd be interesting to be blind
12:17:06 <ehird> well not really
12:17:06 <ehird> but from the computer aspect
12:17:56 <oerjan> clearly SCIENCE requires you to stab out your eyes
12:19:36 <oklopol> o
12:19:52 <oklopol> lament: you look pretty today
12:20:10 <oerjan> very opulent
12:21:10 -!- jix has joined.
12:22:25 <ehird> oklopol: blindfold yourself and enable all the speech and keyboard control things
12:22:26 <ehird> YOU MUST DO IT
12:22:57 <oerjan> _maybe_ in the other order might be preferred
12:24:05 <ehird> well, yes
12:24:32 <ehird> if i was a blind dude i'd have all sorts of awesome shorthand just for representing everything
12:25:03 <ehird> "(spoken very quickly)blab esoteric oklopol"
12:25:06 <ehird> key to say "tell me tell me"
12:25:16 <ehird> "lament: you look pretty today. 1 minute ago."
12:25:22 <ehird> "switch to window"
12:25:25 <ehird> type!
12:25:27 <ehird> or something
12:25:29 <ehird> mainly the blab thing
12:25:32 <ehird> it'd be like, sitting there
12:25:47 <ehird> blab esoteric oklopol mail inbox compile done
12:36:41 -!- fax has joined.
12:40:02 -!- ivank` has quit (Client Quit).
12:40:10 -!- rodgort has joined.
12:50:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
13:12:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:13:04 <ehird> hi ais523
13:13:14 <ais523> hi
13:30:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
13:30:46 <ehird> hi
13:40:17 <ais523> who was that a hi to?
13:45:18 <ehird> nobody in particular
13:46:04 <ehird> applescript://com.apple.scripteditor?action=new&script=say%20%22hi%22
13:46:08 <ehird> i swear this actually works
13:48:17 <ehird> there seems to be no way to get it to run on click though :P
13:48:49 <ais523> I don't think this computer understands that protocol
13:50:07 <ehird> ais523: i'm shocked
13:50:09 <ehird> utterly shocked
13:50:51 <ais523> yep, it doesn't
13:51:39 <ehird> ais523: Clearly you must be running some weird-ass OS, like, like, HURD!
13:52:08 <ehird> (It is 2013. Apple announce their porting of OS X to a modified HURD kernel) Oh god I regret everything I have said ever
13:52:17 <ais523> even VxWorks doesn't recognise that protocol
13:52:26 <ais523> so why would you expect less mainstream OSes to?
13:53:37 <ehird> ais523: Not even Emacs supports it!
13:53:47 <ais523> ouch
13:53:48 <ehird> HURD, VxWorks and Emacs: the three main operating systems.
13:53:56 <ehird> IN HELL
14:09:08 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:13:54 * ehird does something very stupid
14:16:03 * ehird doesn't actually do it due to stupidity
14:19:03 -!- Asztal has joined.
14:20:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:31:38 -!- adam_d has joined.
14:32:24 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:52:06 <ehird> grabbernickle
15:03:32 <ehird> i need to work on Ponzi Scheme sometime before someone else takes that name :(
15:10:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:35:55 <ehird> sure is slow lately
15:37:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:38:59 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
16:08:19 <AnMaster> hi ais523
16:08:56 <ais523> hi
16:09:11 <fax> hi
16:09:20 <AnMaster> hi fax too
16:10:39 <AnMaster> hm how fast does n! grow? Faster than a^n ?
16:10:45 * AnMaster guesses so
16:10:54 <ais523> yes
16:10:58 <ais523> but slower than n^n
16:11:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh really?
16:11:07 <ais523> yes, obviously
16:11:19 <AnMaster> how is that obvious?
16:11:19 <ais523> 5! = 1*2*3*4*5
16:11:24 <ais523> 5^5 = 5*5*5*5*5
16:11:29 <AnMaster> hm right
16:16:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what about n^(n-1)?
16:16:28 <ais523> that grows about as fast as (n+1)^n
16:16:37 <ais523> just with a horizontal offset
16:16:42 <ais523> so that'll go faster than n! too
16:16:46 <AnMaster> ah hm
16:17:08 <AnMaster> how comes it grows about as fast as (n+1)^n?
16:19:31 * AnMaster just cleaned his keyboard. Eww
16:32:19 <ehird> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271
16:32:43 <ais523> AnMaster: just substitute n-1 for n
16:43:55 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:45:08 <AnMaster> hm
16:46:25 <AnMaster> ais523, what about n!+n! ?
16:46:45 <AnMaster> should still be less than n^n right?
16:47:12 <ais523> yes
16:47:15 <ais523> that's just multiplying by 2
16:47:35 <ais523> things like adding/subtracting one from n, and multiplying by /any/ constant, don't affect behaviour in the limit
16:49:49 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
16:49:55 <AnMaster> a bit funny bug report
16:50:05 <ehird> thus why i linked it
16:50:11 <AnMaster> yeah
16:51:04 <fax> so O gives equivalence classes ordered?
16:51:14 <fax> O(n!) < O(n^n)
16:51:28 <fax> can you these O's as numbers
16:51:50 <fizzie> Oh, ehird might be interested to know that YLE (our BBC) had a theremin for the public to play with on their altparty stand.
16:52:01 <ehird> coo
16:53:17 <fizzie> It was hooked to an oscilloscope, theoretically to make it easier to see amplitudes and frequencies.
16:53:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, awesome
16:54:00 <fizzie> Didn't see anyone who could actually play the thing though.
16:54:27 <AnMaster> (oscilloscopes always are)
16:54:57 <AnMaster> fax, was that a question or a statement?
16:55:04 <fax> yes
16:55:07 <AnMaster> argh
16:55:19 <fax> what does that tell us?
16:55:20 <AnMaster> fax, "<fax> can you these O's as numbers" didn't parse here
16:55:24 <AnMaster> so no clue
16:55:44 <AnMaster> possibly a missing word
16:55:51 <AnMaster> or "these" should have been something else
17:06:27 -!- Pthing has joined.
17:15:24 <ehird> oh god when did uriel become a proggit mod
17:16:03 <Deewiant> Probably just recently, when spez asked for new mods.
17:16:40 <ehird> ;_;
17:18:19 <Deewiant> Is that somehow terribly bad?
17:19:23 <ehird> well, uriel is quite seriously insane...
17:19:26 <ehird> :P
17:19:28 <ehird> but no, not a big deal
17:21:39 <AnMaster> who is this uriel?
17:21:39 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:22:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a libertarian free-market capitalist plan 9 highly acidic moron who lives in sweden
17:22:47 <ehird> his website is among the few known to cause actual mental illness merely by reading text
17:23:07 <ehird> cat-v.org may ring a bell.
17:24:44 <ehird> "If elected moderator, I will edit LISP postings by randomly removing left and right parens"
17:24:52 <ehird> now here's a man with initiative!
17:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh cat-v.org right
17:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, hasn't he been in here? Or was that someone else
17:26:15 <ehird> No.
17:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, someone with a ready-made image for plan9?
17:26:44 <ehird> mycroftiv/nescience.
17:26:47 <AnMaster> ah yes
17:26:51 <ehird> wait
17:26:52 <ehird> no
17:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, his web site design was quite similar iirc
17:26:58 <ehird> nescience/myndzi is different
17:26:58 <ehird> just mycroftiv
17:27:01 <ehird> so confusing
17:27:08 <AnMaster> how is it confusing
17:27:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the default werc style (plan 9 style website system used for suckless.org, maintained byy uriel)
17:27:26 <ehird> *by
17:27:34 <AnMaster> ah
17:28:10 <AnMaster> suckless.org looks different though
17:28:23 <AnMaster> but ok
17:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a nice web site design anyway. And a nice colour scheme
17:28:50 <ehird> yes, suckless use their own style
17:29:08 <AnMaster> I meant cat-v design
17:29:12 <ehird> the orange colour is displeasing
17:29:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it differs on sub-pages
17:29:28 <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it
17:29:29 <AnMaster> like http://glenda.cat-v.org/
17:29:34 <ehird> yes.
17:29:48 <ehird> that's just plan 9's colour scheme, changed sliughtly
17:29:49 <ehird> slightly
17:29:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it <-- yeah that is the so great thing about it
17:29:52 <ehird> 9times uses it unchanged
17:29:54 <ehird> (rio)
17:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster: not really, the line length is too long
17:30:15 <AnMaster> ehird, too wide browser window?
17:30:26 <ehird> yep, now every other site has a horizontal scrollbar
17:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, at least it doesn't try to be *wider* than your browser. Ever
17:30:54 <AnMaster> well ok
17:30:55 <ehird> my safari window disagrees.
17:31:01 <ehird> i have a horiz. scrollbar on a cat-v page
17:31:02 <AnMaster> if you go smaller than the menu
17:31:10 <ehird> admittedly it contains a large image
17:33:40 <AnMaster> maybe I should join #plan9. Or maybe not
17:35:37 <ehird> they're not the most helpful bunch.
17:36:01 <AnMaster> hehe
17:41:04 <ehird> hooray for possible progress on my os.
17:42:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
17:42:16 <ehird> augur involvement.
17:42:31 <AnMaster> oh my
17:42:37 <ehird> not that anything's been done, but a few ideas have been batted and that's better than it's been for, like, monhts
17:42:38 <ehird> *months
17:42:54 <ehird> [said in T-Rex voice] LINGUISTICS IS STRANGELY APPLICABLE
17:43:38 <AnMaster> XD
17:43:46 <ehird> 'Tis though!
17:43:49 <AnMaster> how?
17:44:31 <ehird> Some interesting stuff for the primary (at least until I think of something better) interaction quantum, the linguistic super-mini-CLI.
17:44:41 <ehird> Which is hard to explain but so trivially easy as to seem boring, hey ho.
17:45:06 <ehird> (A CLI that is both super and mini, that is.)
17:45:19 <ehird> Also it's not really too much like a CLI.
17:45:23 <ehird> But whatever.
17:46:12 <ehird> Also: Apple are trying to de-emphasise the bezel around the display on the iMac! I predict that eventually, the entire front of the iMac will be a display with rounded corners.
17:46:24 <ehird> That would be some engineering feat, also awesome.
17:46:45 <ehird> (The pixels would go right up to the edge, presumably involving fractions of pixels.)
17:48:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, no border around the screen at all?
17:48:13 <ehird> Yep!
17:48:19 <AnMaster> doesn't sound impossible
17:48:29 <ehird> Obviously the software expects a square display, but you're only losing like a few pixels at the corners that can just be ignored.
17:48:31 <AnMaster> except for dust issues
17:48:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd be covered with glass like current iMacs, presumably.
17:48:45 <AnMaster> ehird, why not sharp corners?
17:48:56 <ehird> Because they're ugly, and the iMac has always had rounded corners.
17:49:01 <ehird> I'm just extrapolating from the current design.
17:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, you need a bit of glass on the sides too, could be very thin
17:49:03 <ehird> Plus it'd be purty.
17:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes.
17:49:19 <ehird> The main engineering feat would be the pixels on the corner that get cut off.
17:49:27 <ehird> You'd have to make non-square pixels.
17:49:33 <AnMaster> hm true
17:49:34 <ehird> Of quite a few variations in shape.
17:49:40 <AnMaster> yes
17:49:53 <ehird> The end effect would be sweet, though.
17:50:03 <ehird> Caveat: No place to put camera, microphone, big Apple logo.
17:50:29 <ehird> Well... you could embed the camera and microphone inside the glass somehow, and make them invisible... somehow...
17:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm using the bottom pixles?
17:50:29 <AnMaster> for the logo
17:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: But that ruins the effect. :P
17:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes
17:50:45 <AnMaster> ehird, the footstand
17:50:51 <ehird> Although it'd be amusing to display a bezel in the showroom... run some demos....
17:50:51 <ehird> *demos...
17:50:51 <ehird> then...
17:50:51 <ehird> *click*
17:50:53 <AnMaster> redeign it so part of it is in front
17:50:55 <AnMaster> as in
17:50:59 <ehird> it fades into more desktop
17:51:03 <AnMaster> not all hidden way behind
17:51:15 <ehird> The logo thing was facetious; Apple design is obvious enough to not need a logo.
17:51:24 <ehird> But the camera and microphone would present a real problem.
17:51:43 <ehird> (All peanuts compared to the whole myriad-shapes-of-pixels-at-the-corners, of course.)
17:51:45 <AnMaster> ehird, the camera yes. The mic less so
17:51:50 <ehird> True.
17:52:08 <ehird> The mic is easy enough with some clever tilting of the top or bottom part, I guess.
17:52:14 <ehird> But the camera really needs to be on the front.
17:52:31 * AnMaster invokes treknobabel to make it work
17:52:42 <ehird> Technobabble?
17:52:48 <AnMaster> no
17:52:50 <AnMaster> it was no typo
17:52:53 <AnMaster> see tvtropes
17:53:28 <ehird> It's Treknobabble, then.
17:53:34 <AnMaster> yeah
17:53:42 <AnMaster> missing b indeed
17:54:13 <ehird> And a transposed le.
17:54:17 <ehird> Anyway, the camera... hmm...
17:55:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said. Redesign the foot
17:55:27 <ehird> Wrong angle.
17:55:27 <AnMaster> so there is part of it near the front
17:55:35 <ehird> It's at the top of the display.
17:55:43 <AnMaster> that solves logo at least
17:55:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
17:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what about some cleaver algorithms to move the thing?
17:56:03 <AnMaster> (can't be done :P)
17:56:08 <ehird> You could set up a fancy mirror thing with a camera on the top above the screen, but it'd be non-flat.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you know a mic and a speaker can be replaced kind of?
17:57:04 <AnMaster> as in, they work the same basically
17:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, now design pixels that can be used backwards as a camera
17:57:52 <AnMaster> problem solved. When camera is needed, some 32x32 pixles at the top are used
17:57:56 <ehird> One issue with this design is, where the hell do you go from there? The whole thing the user sees in front, with the perfect curve, leading to thin, black glass on the sides, top and bottom, and then anodised aluminium with a few ports in one corner, the name of the computer, and a hole for the power cord. All suspended on a foot made out of the same material on the back that's literally just an elaborate curve, the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
17:57:57 <ehird> power curve through.
17:57:57 <ehird> I mean
17:57:59 <AnMaster> or actually, much more
17:58:01 <ehird> Two years later
17:58:13 <ehird> "Apple releases revolutionary new iMac design; it's exactly the same but .3 inches thinner"
17:58:19 <ehird> STOCKS: ↓↓↓
17:58:20 <ehird> :D
17:58:27 <ehird> now I'll read everything you said while I wrote that
17:58:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
17:58:57 <ehird> Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
17:59:03 <ehird> With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
17:59:07 <AnMaster> anyway since by then we will have 1000 dpi, some 60x60 pixles wouldn't be a problem
17:59:11 <ehird> But the quality would be poor if it's even possible.
17:59:13 <AnMaster> or even more
18:00:17 <AnMaster> "the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
18:00:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> power curve through."
18:00:18 <AnMaster> what?
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, was something dropped there?
18:00:54 <ehird> "let".
18:00:59 <AnMaster> ah
18:01:01 <ehird> *power cord
18:01:06 <AnMaster> aha
18:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what about my idea about double function pixels?
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:58] ehird: Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:59] ehird: With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
18:03:05 <ehird> was in response to that.
18:03:10 <ehird> i don't know if it's possible
18:04:22 <AnMaster> ah
18:04:23 <AnMaster> hm
18:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, drop the camera?
18:05:02 <ehird> Not happening, not cool, not interesting engineering, not profitable.
18:12:49 <ehird> AnMaster: LITTLE DID YOU KNOW I WORK AT APPLE'S DESIGN DIVISION
18:12:54 <ehird> Thx for the assistance!
18:13:05 <ehird> TIME TO GO COLLECT MY HUGE PILE OF MONEY
18:13:53 <ehird> "I use a filesystem I wrote for MacFUSE for resizing images. If an image is located at /path/to/image.png then I can get a version resized to fit in 1024x768 with /transform/maxwidth-1024-maxheight-768/path/to/image.png. I was going to add other transformations but never got around to it, so all I can do right now is resize, either to fixed sizes or constraints."
18:13:53 <ehird> Why god why
18:15:24 <ais523> this is the future of OSes!
18:15:29 <ais523> clearly, you don't run filter programs
18:15:32 <ais523> you just use custom paths
18:15:58 <oklopol> /for/each/i/in/path/to/images/resize/to/x/y
18:15:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Easier to get at from GUI programs.
18:16:06 <ehird> ;_;
18:16:14 <oklopol> wait maybe i should've used the i.
18:16:22 <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful
18:16:24 <ehird> oklopol: xD
18:16:41 <oklopol> anyway you could have a programming language integrated in your file system, reading a path executes a script
18:16:51 <oklopol> would be the natural extension to what you pasted there
18:18:40 <ehird> but how do you nest!!!!!!
18:19:54 <Asztal> with twigs and leaves and things
18:20:38 <ehird> so, who wants to play...
18:20:38 <ehird> THE TINY LINUX KERNEL GAME
18:20:47 <oklopol> ehird: there's /../ ;)
18:20:56 <ehird> the game is that you have to make the tiniest linux kernel that'll boot and run on some given hardware usefully. VMs count
18:22:14 <oklopol> /print/list/1/../2/../3/
18:22:35 <ais523> ehird: how do you define "linux" here?
18:22:56 <ehird> kernel.org, any version! although if it doesn't have enough menuconfig to tinker with it's no fun
18:23:13 <ehird> base system doesn't matter, just steal some shit from debian for the kernel to jump into
18:23:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful <-- eh
18:24:32 <ais523> AnMaster: /dev/env/NETHACKDIR/perm is equivalent to $NETHACKDIR/perm, but works everywhere, not just shells
18:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use a simple busybox
18:25:06 <AnMaster> for userland
18:25:08 <ehird> doesn't matter
18:25:12 <ehird> kernel size is all that counts
18:25:21 <AnMaster> ehird, 2.0 kernel then
18:25:37 <ehird> if it boots something you can poke around w/ a shell and grep and shit
18:25:38 <ehird> it's game
18:25:38 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
18:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it should be only current kernel tbh
18:25:53 <ehird> since it's more bloaty
18:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so 2.4 and 2.6?
18:26:05 <ehird> latest version
18:26:13 <AnMaster> oh ok
18:26:18 <ehird> 8 KiB should be trivial, 4 KiB possible
18:26:21 <ehird> anything below, more difficult
18:26:23 <AnMaster> 2.4 is still maintained though
18:26:28 <ehird> sub 2 KiB, haaaaaaard
18:26:30 <ehird> AnMaster: but less bloaty.
18:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, x86 or x86_64?
18:26:49 <ehird> x86 obvs
18:27:05 <AnMaster> about 2 MB is what I managed for x86_64 for something that is usable for me on my main desktop
18:27:13 <AnMaster> most modules built in though
18:27:34 <Deewiant> Mine is 2.6 MB without module support
18:27:35 <ehird> someone posted on reddit that he uses a ~8 KiB kernel
18:27:39 <ehird> because shrinking it is fun
18:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, lzma compression I guess?
18:27:44 <ehird> who knows
18:27:49 <ehird> anyway, that's for a desktop
18:28:00 <ehird> so since we're just doing shells and grepping and all that regular shit
18:28:03 <Deewiant> Did he say how large his modules are?
18:28:12 <ehird> i don't think so
18:28:21 <AnMaster> ehird, then most was in modules I assume
18:28:25 <ehird> my strategy would be no modules, simplest fs possible
18:28:46 <Deewiant> Obviously you can get straightforward reductions by just putting everything possible in M
18:28:53 <ehird> no drivers for anything but a console, keyboard, drive and whatever else you need to boot
18:29:11 <Deewiant> The module-loading code is probably fairly tiny so you can get away with including that
18:29:21 <ehird> Yes, but modules count
18:29:28 <ehird> anyway, then disable everything else, and compress it.
18:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, bbl food. will try this afterwards
18:29:33 <AnMaster> since it sounds so fun
18:29:37 <ehird> haha really? :D
18:29:43 <ehird> can you compile linux on os x
18:31:18 <ehird> targeting a vm will be the best bet
18:31:20 <Deewiant> So what, latest stable or mainline?
18:31:24 <ehird> least janky hardware
18:31:38 <ehird> stable is what people actually use right?
18:31:38 <ehird> stable.
18:31:49 <Deewiant> I'm on a mainline rc :-P
18:31:55 <Deewiant> But yeah, sure.
18:32:21 <ehird> a whole 58 megs :(
18:32:31 <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s
18:32:57 <ehird> 35 minutes
18:32:58 <ehird> fuck this internet
18:33:06 <ehird> Deewiant: i hate you die
18:34:10 <ehird> Deewiant: gimme ssh!! :-P
18:34:25 <Deewiant> No :-P
18:34:33 <ehird> wonder if you can upx compress the kernel
18:34:34 <ehird> (no)
18:34:42 <Deewiant> 'make allnoconfig' gives a 708K bzImage
18:35:05 <ehird> Yes, but can it actually do anything :p
18:35:06 <ehird> *:P
18:35:22 <Deewiant> It can boot an x86, presumably.
18:35:32 <ehird> Well, try it in a VM?
18:35:40 <Deewiant> I don't have VMs.
18:36:38 <ehird> You don't have any VM software installed?
18:36:45 <ehird> Well, boot up your machine with it, then :D
18:36:46 <Deewiant> Correct.
18:36:50 <Deewiant> And nah.
18:37:01 <ehird> Anyway, 700 is waaaaaaaaaay too big
18:37:20 <Deewiant> It was gzipped
18:37:34 <ehird> How much ungzipped
18:37:47 <Deewiant> But yeah, I'm kinda surprised that people can make smaller ones, then :-P
18:37:56 <ehird> 700 is so huge.
18:38:06 <Deewiant> I don't know how to ungzip it
18:38:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe they use oooooooold ones
18:38:09 <ehird> Also, um
18:38:09 <pikhq> "allnoconfig" also says no to the option to turn off a few of the different options...
18:38:11 <ehird> gzip -d?
18:38:16 <ehird> pikhq: XD
18:38:22 <Deewiant> ehird: "not in gzip format"
18:38:28 <ehird> bz ]
18:38:29 <Deewiant> Not bzip2 either.
18:38:31 <ehird> bz = bzip no?
18:38:31 <ehird> ah
18:38:33 <ehird> bzip1?
18:38:34 <ehird> :P
18:38:36 <Deewiant> :-P
18:38:41 <ehird> pikhq: awesome
18:38:44 <Deewiant> menuconfig said it was gzip, so anyway
18:38:58 <pikhq> ehird: There's an option to pull up a menu for removing various major features like "error strings". ;)
18:38:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course the whole thing isn't gzipped, since it needs to have a BIOS-readable bit and such.
18:39:07 <ehird> pikhq: Shweet
18:39:13 <ehird> Deewiant: But you tried anyway :P
18:39:33 <pikhq> Also, there's one of the allocators that doesn't use much bzimage space.
18:39:42 <ehird> :D
18:39:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you asked me to, I was hoping gzip would be somehow clever enough.
18:40:06 <pikhq> Also, 2.6.31 and up can use lzma for the image.
18:40:31 <Deewiant> Yep, I noticed.
18:40:33 <pikhq> And I though upx could compress a kernel.
18:40:37 <pikhq> Thought, even.
18:40:44 <Deewiant> I'm going through menuconfig activating various "disable foo" options.
18:41:07 <pikhq> Ypu, upx supports vmlinuz compression.
18:41:23 <ehird> Ypu
18:41:49 <ehird> I wonder if it beats the kernel's own
18:41:50 <Deewiant> Typically that's a typo for "you", not "yup".
18:42:10 <Deewiant> Hmmh, I can't seem to be able to disable mouse support
18:42:15 <ehird> XD
18:42:24 <ehird> Wonder what the smallest fs is
18:42:26 <ehird> Fat16?
18:42:31 <Deewiant> I don't have an FS ATM.
18:42:36 <ehird> :DD
18:42:39 <pikhq> Fat12's smaller.
18:42:46 <ehird> Disabling initrd, yeah?
18:42:49 <Deewiant> Nothing useless like ELF binary support, either.
18:42:57 <ehird> a.out uber alles
18:42:58 <Deewiant> I don't even have initrd on the kernel I use
18:43:00 <ais523> you have to support some sort of binary...
18:43:03 <Deewiant> Of course a.out isn't supported either
18:43:07 <ehird> XD
18:43:08 <Deewiant> ais523: No, I don't. :-P
18:43:18 <ehird> Just execute RAW BINARIES YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
18:43:21 <pikhq> ais523: Strictly speaking, it's optional.
18:43:23 <Deewiant> ehird: Oh, I do have a /proc.
18:43:29 <ehird> USELESS
18:43:30 <Deewiant> Undisableable.
18:43:31 <pikhq> Just not very useful (in general).
18:43:34 <ehird> !!!
18:43:37 <ehird> Deewiant: use 2.4 man
18:43:45 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought we agreed on a version. :-P
18:43:51 <Deewiant> 2.6.31.5.
18:43:54 <ehird> well yeah but mandatory proc?
18:43:57 <ehird> that's like the devil
18:44:21 <pikhq> I thought that was a disablable option.
18:45:29 <Deewiant> Welp, now I'm down to 526 K
18:45:36 <ehird> UPX it
18:45:42 <ehird> (Without compressing it in kernel)
18:45:43 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: kernel decompression failed
18:45:50 <Deewiant> upx doesn't like the LZMA.
18:45:52 <ehird>
18:46:02 <pikhq> upx is still used to the gzip-only compression.
18:46:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It obviously unpacks it by itself first
18:46:16 <pikhq> Set the kernel to compress with gzip, then let upx have at it.
18:46:25 <Deewiant> Yep, that's what I'm doing.
18:46:39 <Deewiant> ehird: There's no option for lack of compression, only gzip/bzip2/LZMA
18:46:43 <Deewiant> Eurgh
18:46:45 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: unrecognized kernel architecture; use option '-f' to force packing
18:46:45 <ehird> Ah
18:46:49 <ehird> :D
18:46:49 <Deewiant> -f it is
18:47:56 <Deewiant> 637952 -> 597310 93.63% bvmlinuz/386 bzImage
18:48:03 <Deewiant> LZMA wins this round
18:48:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you compiling with -Os
18:48:12 <Deewiant> Yes
18:48:17 <ehird> Just checking
18:48:30 <ehird> Can you omit frame pointer?
18:48:37 <ehird> I guess -Os does that
18:48:44 <pikhq> Are you telling upx --best?
18:49:02 <Deewiant> No, --ultra-brute.
18:49:08 <ehird> :D
18:49:21 <pikhq> Hmm.
18:49:29 <Deewiant> Which, BTW, is much more annoying in Windows, where it tries like 72 options instead of the 10 or so it picks from on Linux.
18:49:30 <pikhq> I could've *sworn* one of the things upx does is lzma.
18:50:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Hex edit that thing
18:50:10 <ehird> Any trailing 0s or w/e?
18:50:27 <Deewiant> Setup is 13676 bytes (padded to 13824 bytes).
18:50:35 <Deewiant> So, yes, there's some padding there.
18:50:36 <ehird> ?
18:50:36 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s <-- wow cool
18:50:38 <AnMaster> WANT
18:50:42 <Deewiant> :-P
18:50:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, university network?
18:50:49 <ehird> Deewiant: So chop it off
18:50:53 <ehird> If it's trailing who cares
18:51:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That's standard 100 Mb/s speed, no?
18:51:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, home.
18:51:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wow
18:51:30 <AnMaster> WANT WANT WANT WANT
18:51:31 <ehird> Move somewhere more urban :P
18:51:38 <ehird> Small price to pay
18:51:54 <AnMaster> so
18:52:02 <AnMaster> how do I crosscompile kernel to x86
18:52:07 <AnMaster> I only have 64-bit systems around atm
18:52:08 <ehird> Magiv
18:52:10 <ehird> Magic
18:52:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, upx? it works on kernel?
18:52:35 <ehird> Yes
18:52:36 <Deewiant> Evidently
18:52:41 <Deewiant> Oh yes, mine is 64-bit as well.
18:52:45 <ehird> xD
18:52:49 <ehird> fail
18:52:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that.
18:53:01 <Deewiant> I should've built it in my chroot.
18:53:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, for the config part
18:53:06 <AnMaster> because allno isn't enough
18:53:09 <Deewiant> I'll do that in a moment.
18:53:09 <AnMaster> there is more you can do
18:53:15 <AnMaster> by saying yes to "embedded"
18:53:22 * pikhq nods
18:53:23 <ehird> He's doing it manually
18:53:27 <ehird> Deewiant that is
18:53:39 <ehird> Also, what does embedded do? Sounds cheating :(
18:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, allow you to turn off more options
18:53:51 <Deewiant> I started out from allnoconfig.
18:53:52 <ehird> Ha
18:53:53 <AnMaster> like swap support iirc
18:53:53 <ehird> cool
18:54:00 <pikhq> ehird: Turns off "error messages", swap support, etc.
18:54:01 <ehird> And /proc?
18:54:07 <pikhq> I think that's in there.
18:54:19 <pikhq> Though if it's not, then that just means /proc is a couple lines of code. :P
18:54:53 <ehird> Eh?
18:57:19 <Deewiant> Oh right, I forgot about embedded *facepalm*
18:57:23 <ehird> :D
18:57:35 <Deewiant> Goodbye, keyboard and mouse
18:57:37 <Deewiant> You have served me well
18:57:39 <ehird> No
18:57:40 <ehird> Keyboard, man
18:57:44 <ehird> I set out rules
18:57:57 <ehird> You gotta boot up to a console and execute a shell with a keyboard, dood
18:57:58 <ehird> :P
18:58:05 <ehird> (Think embedded + 32-bit + compression fun should reach 200 KiB.)
18:58:06 <Deewiant> I'm just seeing how big a "can't do squat" kernel is
18:58:12 <ehird> Ah
18:58:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that. <-- no :(
18:58:19 <Deewiant> Goodbye, block layer
18:58:23 <ehird> XD
18:58:25 <Deewiant> Goodbye, /proc and sysfs
18:58:32 <ehird> Goodbye, kernel
18:59:07 <Deewiant> 339K
18:59:11 <Deewiant> Now to 32-bittify it
18:59:28 <ehird> Compression?
18:59:46 <Deewiant> That was LZMA
19:00:04 <ehird> Wonder how ... wossname does
19:00:08 <ehird> upx
19:00:15 <Deewiant> Goodbye, x86 support
19:00:19 <ehird> ...
19:00:21 <ehird> Deewiant
19:00:24 <ehird> it has to actually boot
19:00:36 <Deewiant> What part of "can't do squat" do you not understand?
19:00:41 <ehird> XD
19:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux32 in front works it seems
19:03:01 <AnMaster> goodkye epoll
19:03:01 <pikhq> Mmm.
19:03:09 <AnMaster> goodbye*
19:03:27 <Deewiant> Found some more options that embedded opened: I think 334K is just about the smallest 64-bit one possible
19:03:48 <pikhq> Should be a decent amount smaller for 32-bit.
19:03:54 <pikhq> Halving pointers helps. ;)
19:03:55 <Deewiant> Yes, since there I can disable x86.
19:04:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait what
19:04:05 <pikhq> ... Disable x86???
19:04:10 <Deewiant> And HPET, and VM86, etc.
19:04:15 <Deewiant> pikhq: "Generic X86 support" =n
19:04:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh hpet can be disabled on 64-bit
19:04:23 <Deewiant> On x86-64 that wasn't an option.
19:04:31 <pikhq> Ah.
19:04:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is because generic x86 isn't supported
19:04:38 <AnMaster> on 64-bit
19:04:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The option wasn't in the same place, at least.
19:04:46 <AnMaster> it is generic x86-64 support then
19:05:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:06:05 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> And HPET, and VM86, etc.
19:06:11 <Deewiant> I found some more stuff, so 334K can be beaten; won't do that now, though, working on 32-bit.
19:06:14 <AnMaster> vm86 is not supported on 64-bit
19:06:27 <AnMaster> hpet should be possible to turn off for both
19:06:35 <AnMaster> there are plenty of early 64-bit systems without hpet
19:06:39 <Deewiant> There wasn't an HPET option in the same place.
19:06:46 <Deewiant> That's all I'm saying.
19:07:47 <Deewiant> 280K for a 386
19:08:15 <AnMaster> I bet I can make it less
19:08:20 <AnMaster> by a few bytes
19:08:25 <AnMaster> I want exact byte size
19:08:47 <Deewiant> 285936
19:09:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this "can't do a squat" or ehird's challenge?
19:09:46 <Deewiant> The former.
19:09:50 * AnMaster is only doing ehird's challenge
19:09:54 <AnMaster> not interested in the other
19:10:02 <Deewiant> 295504 for a Core 2.
19:11:08 <Deewiant> I have no way of testing whether my thing can actually do anything, so I can't really give reliable answers to ehird's challenge.
19:11:15 <AnMaster> hm
19:11:27 <AnMaster> ehird, ok with initramfs instead of proper disk support?
19:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, qemu
19:11:58 <Deewiant> I don't have any VM-thing installed and can't be bothered to install one and figure it out
19:12:39 <AnMaster> mhm
19:13:28 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:13:28 <Deewiant> Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:13:38 <Deewiant> I think I'm done here.
19:13:49 <Rugxulo> okay, I need people to bugtest my heavy hack of Ryan Kusnery's DOS Befunge93 interpreter
19:13:53 <Rugxulo> http://board.flatassembler.net/download.php?id=4623
19:14:01 <Deewiant> Did you run it on mycology?
19:14:04 <Rugxulo> seems to work for me, but more eyes is best
19:14:18 <Rugxulo> no, I suspect that won't run due to it using 128*128 by default (which I didn't change)
19:14:43 <Deewiant> Mycology's first 80x25 are valid Befunge-93, you can just cut that bit out for interpreters that won't accept bigger files
19:15:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:15:25 <Rugxulo> but what files exactly? aren't there a few I need to run on?
19:15:29 <ehird> back
19:16:01 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ryan's webpage is pretty much AWOL now, and I fixed three bugs (and shrank it a lot)
19:16:10 <Deewiant> sanity.bf, first 80x25 of mycology.b98, mycorand.bf, mycouser.b98
19:16:12 <Rugxulo> original TASM version: 1280 bytes, my hacked FASM version: 1021 bytes
19:16:53 <ehird> kernel download done
19:18:39 <Rugxulo> er, what is sanity.bf supposed to do exactly??
19:18:47 <Rugxulo> loop infinitely?? crash gracefully??
19:18:47 <Deewiant> There's a readme, you know.
19:19:01 <Deewiant> None of them should infloop or crash. :-P
19:19:25 <Rugxulo> "should reflect" ... what exactly does that mean?
19:19:45 <Deewiant> The IP should reverse direction and then continue on its way.
19:19:45 <Rugxulo> go opposite direction?
19:19:57 <Rugxulo> really? and that's standard practice??
19:20:02 <Rugxulo> I've never heard of anyone relying on that
19:20:05 <Deewiant> What is?
19:20:17 <Rugxulo> reference C version does that? (lemme check)
19:21:41 <Deewiant> Also, it's not so much "standard practice" as it is "dictated by the Funge-98 standard", which is what Mycology is testing ;-)
19:21:57 <Deewiant> The -93 standard might be silent about it, I'm not sure.
19:21:59 <ehird> So just to confirm
19:22:05 <ehird> make whateverconfig
19:22:05 <ehird> make
19:22:08 <Rugxulo> the BEF-2.2.1.ZIP version (bef.c) seems to print it okay but hangs
19:22:11 <ehird> is it,right?
19:22:13 <ehird> *it, right
19:22:36 <Deewiant> So it probably just ignores invalid commands.
19:22:49 <Deewiant> I guess you can relax that requirement, then.
19:22:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I do 'make bzImage'
19:23:05 <ehird> What does that achieve
19:23:07 <Rugxulo> it will whine about invalid commands unless -q is specified, though
19:23:13 <Rugxulo> (bef.c was updated in 2004)
19:23:20 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know, it's just what I do.
19:23:23 <Rugxulo> compresses with Bzip2
19:23:24 <ehird> Heh
19:23:29 <Rugxulo> smaller kernel
19:23:34 <Deewiant> Nope, that's not what it does.
19:23:36 <ehird> What about those noconfig, embedded things
19:23:44 <ehird> Can I still use the fancy GUIs?
19:23:55 <Rugxulo> then what's it do?
19:23:55 <Deewiant> The compression is specified in the .config, not by using 'bzImage'.
19:24:01 <Deewiant> It builds the kernel image.
19:24:11 <Deewiant> I don't know if it's any different from plain 'make'.
19:24:19 <Deewiant> ehird: I started with allnoconfig and then used menuconfig.
19:24:29 <ehird> Howdothembedded?
19:24:37 <Rugxulo> ah, I see what bef.c does now ... it ignores invalid instructions but your "intentionally inValid" string has a "v" which makes it loop endlessly downwards :-P
19:25:01 <Deewiant> If it didn't have a v, it'd endlessly print the string. :-P
19:25:24 <Deewiant> (Since it'd go back to the start.)
19:25:26 <ehird> Deewiant: do you do embedded in menuconfig?
19:25:36 <Deewiant> Yes, it's a perfectly normal option.
19:25:47 <Deewiant> Can't remember where, may have been "general setup".
19:26:10 <ehird> Wonder if this compiles with Apple's gcc 4.0
19:26:12 <ehird> Guess we'll see
19:26:16 <ehird> *4.0.1
19:26:33 <ehird> fdimage - Create 1.4MB boot floppy image (arch/x86/boot/fdimage)
19:26:40 <ehird> Wonder where it gets the root FS from
19:27:20 <Rugxulo> mycorand seems to work
19:27:27 * ehird tries gconfig
19:27:52 <ehird> Friendly!
19:27:57 <ehird> Doesn't look like a too bad UI.
19:28:13 * ehird show all options
19:28:16 <ehird> I regret that
19:28:47 <ehird> Gives crazy things like GENERIC_TIME
19:28:52 <ehird> With no description
19:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at
19:29:14 <Deewiant> 2009-10-24 21:13:28 ( Deewiant) Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:29:16 <ehird> (First is "boots to shell w/ kb", second is "fails to do anything at aa ll")
19:29:18 <ehird> *at all
19:29:20 <ehird> Deewiant: 32-bit, then.
19:29:26 <Deewiant> Yes, 32-bit.
19:29:33 <Deewiant> Or more like 16-bit. :-P
19:29:46 <ehird> Oh, good point, I'll disable X86_32.
19:29:47 <ehird> (Did you look at the SCARY_UPPERCASE_OPTIONS?)
19:30:05 <Deewiant> I didn't look in the .config after that, if that's what you mean.
19:30:33 * ehird tries menuconfig
19:30:39 <ehird> Right, it hides that stuff
19:31:03 <ehird> "Enable loadable module support (NEW)"
19:31:04 <ehird> NEW AND SCARY
19:31:32 <ehird> Disabling the block layer won't help me run a shell, that's for sure
19:31:40 <Deewiant> :-)
19:31:58 <ehird> Do you actually need any I/O schedulers, or will it just do some dumbfuck retarded thing if you don't enable any? :D
19:32:43 * ehird wonders if a tickless system would result in less code
19:32:46 <ehird> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING
19:33:05 <Deewiant> There's a default scheduler of some kind if you disable them all.
19:33:26 <ehird> Yep, the no-op scheduler!
19:34:07 <Deewiant> That's the one.
19:34:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:35:15 <Deewiant> Yep.
19:35:25 <ehird> "Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap)"
19:35:33 <ehird> They make it sound all so exciting and revolutionary.
19:35:36 <ehird> Every single boring option.
19:35:41 <Deewiant> :-D
19:36:03 <ehird> IPC? Now what would I want IPC for
19:36:23 <ehird> "Select kernel log buffer size as power of two"
19:36:32 <ehird> WONDER IF THAT GOES INTO THE BINARY
19:36:44 <ehird> (No)
19:37:04 <ehird> "remove sysfs features which" what is this sysfs
19:37:15 <ehird> Namespaces support? srsly?!
19:37:24 <ehird> Okay how the fuck do you uncheck an option
19:37:34 <Deewiant> In menuconfig, 'n'
19:38:06 <ehird> That just brings up the gtk search-in-this-list thingy
19:38:21 <ehird> So much for easy-to-use GUIs
19:38:59 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: nope, hangs on B93 part of mycology
19:39:01 <Rugxulo> oh well, whatever
19:39:11 <Rugxulo> your testsuite is maybe a little too "hardcore" ;-)
19:39:24 <Deewiant> Does the reference impl?
19:39:28 <Rugxulo> all my examples I tried seem to work, though, so I guess until I figure out what exactly, it's "good enough"
19:39:30 <Deewiant> (It shouldn't)
19:39:46 <Rugxulo> reference says "0 1"
19:39:50 <ehird> HOW DO YOU DISABLE THIS NAMESPACES SUPPORT ARGH
19:40:04 <Rugxulo> more precisely, "0 1 "
19:40:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, that sucks
19:40:29 <Deewiant> That sucks quite a bit, actually; it should definitely say "0 1 2 ", at least :-P
19:40:41 <Rugxulo> mmm, pumpkin-flavor ice cream
19:41:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, oh, but pressing y on an item works, and then pops up the find thingy anyway
19:41:14 <Deewiant> The only instructions hit by the time you get to "0 1 2" are 0#>. 1v<2
19:41:20 <ehird> Joy! And so does n!
19:41:23 <ehird> INTUITIVE
19:41:46 <ehird> Seems you just can't turn off that lovable namespace support
19:41:49 <ehird> I'll do it in .config
19:42:30 <ehird> Embedded: "Only use this if you really know what you are doing."
19:42:36 <ehird> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
19:42:56 <ehird> Legacy 16-bit UID syscall wrappers, eh? Wonder if going 32-bit only + that would be smaller than 16-bit. (Nah?)
19:43:07 <ehird> Uhh
19:43:11 <ehird> Can Linux even boot a 16-bit x86
19:43:16 <Deewiant> That was the last option I disabled to get to 279K instead of 280K.
19:44:29 <SimonRC> a word that English needs: hypersubtext
19:44:47 <Rugxulo> ehird, no, Linux needs a 386+ ... but ELKS can run on 8088/8086 (never tried)
19:44:49 <SimonRC> It's where you add extra meaning to some text by making words into links
19:44:53 <ehird> SimonRC: It really doesn't
19:45:07 <pikhq> The reason for those 16-bit syscall wrappers is, IIRC, for the sake of DOSemu.
19:45:08 <Rugxulo> ehird, 32-bit code is almost always larger than 16-bit
19:45:12 <SimonRC> Encyclopedia Dramatica does it a fair bit
19:45:16 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU needs V86 mode
19:45:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: No shit, but I don't need 16-bit code if I can't boot into it :P
19:45:44 <ehird> gconfig is worthless, menuconfig time
19:45:46 <Rugxulo> dunno, BIOS somewhere maybe??
19:46:31 <ehird> Ah, namespaces support is built-in
19:46:44 <ehird> Erm, as in
19:46:47 <ehird> Not disableable
19:46:59 <ehird> Unless you check embedded! Yay!
19:47:00 <Rugxulo> <ehird>Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:47:05 <Rugxulo> UPX supports LZMA too
19:47:08 <ehird> Yes
19:47:10 <ehird> It's not as good
19:47:28 <Rugxulo> maybe 'cause it's old LZMA 4.43
19:47:33 <Rugxulo> dunno
19:47:37 <ehird> │ This option is provided for the case where no hotplug or uevent │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ capabilities is wanted by the kernel. You should only consider │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ disabling this option for embedded systems that do not use modules, a │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ dynamic /dev tree, or dynamic device discovery. Just say Y. │
19:47:41 <ehird> "Just say N"
19:47:47 <Rugxulo> BTW, so nobody here has ever heard of or tried pumpkin-flavored ice cream???? o_O
19:47:51 <ehird> No
19:48:00 <ehird> printk? Who the fuck wants printk?
19:48:08 <ehird> Fags, that's who.
19:48:09 <ehird> FAGS want printk.
19:48:09 <Rugxulo> not you, obviously
19:48:15 <Rugxulo> heh, devs obviously
19:48:20 <ehird> PC SPEAKER?!
19:48:22 <ehird> Pah!
19:48:25 <ehird> I spit on PC speakers!
19:48:28 <Rugxulo> heh
19:48:39 <ehird> │ Disabling this option will cause the kernel to be built without │
19:48:39 <Rugxulo> spitting on one makes the same sound as its music ;-)
19:48:39 <ehird> │ support for "fast userspace mutexes". The resulting kernel may not │
19:48:39 <ehird> │ run glibc-based applications correctly. │
19:48:42 <ehird> Who cares about glibc?
19:48:47 <ehird> But I wonder if it'll make it smaller.
19:48:50 <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too
19:48:51 <ehird> PROBABLY
19:48:51 <ehird> disabled
19:48:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at <-- just back again
19:48:56 <AnMaster> and not done yet
19:48:59 <ehird> epoll
19:49:00 <ehird> more like
19:49:01 <ehird> fagpoll
19:49:02 <Rugxulo> uh, everything uses glibc ...
19:49:10 <Deewiant> My DOBELA interpreter doesn't
19:49:14 <ehird> Shared memory? Bulllllllllshit
19:49:14 <pikhq> There's uclibx.
19:49:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: Busybox doesn't
19:49:18 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too <-- yes. In ALSA
19:49:22 <AnMaster> sounds like shit
19:49:23 <AnMaster> I tried it
19:49:25 <ehird> AND BUSYBOX IS ALL THAT MATTERS
19:49:26 <Rugxulo> ehird, I mean I suspect you'll want it
19:49:28 <pikhq> I thought busybox used a libc?
19:49:30 <Rugxulo> uh? heh
19:49:30 <Deewiant> And some other things that don't use libc don't, either.
19:49:43 <Rugxulo> I meant most big apps that most people use
19:49:46 <pikhq> (though absolutely nothing glibc-specific)
19:49:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: We're competing for smallest kernel that can boot a shell to an x86 with a console, keyboard,
19:49:51 <ehird> and busybox shell
19:49:53 <ehird> and utilities
19:49:58 <ais523> busybox uses ulibc, I think; possibly statically linked
19:50:04 <Rugxulo> ehird, try FreeDOS ;-)
19:50:07 <Rugxulo> 45k UPX'd
19:50:08 <ehird> Things shall get GNARLY
19:50:11 <Rugxulo> shell is 66k UPX'd
19:50:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: It's a game, you see.
19:50:12 <ehird> A game.
19:50:14 <SimonRC> you think possibly you could have a busybox shell without utilities ;-)
19:50:16 <pikhq> ais523: busybox uses whatever libc you want to link it with.
19:50:22 <Rugxulo> ehird, I *completely* understand
19:50:34 <Rugxulo> I just spent the last two days whittling down a 1213-byte .COM to 1021 bytes ;-)
19:50:38 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea where I can find an a.out compiler/linker
19:50:40 <AnMaster> for the user land
19:50:41 <ehird> VM event counters? laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
19:50:45 <ais523> to get it under 1KiB?
19:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Compile one
19:50:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Grab gcc-3 or gcc-2.
19:50:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah
19:51:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, 3.4?
19:51:00 <ais523> old versions of gcc
19:51:01 <pikhq> Maybe even gcc 4.0.
19:51:05 <ehird> "Strip assembler-generated symbols during link" FUCK YES
19:51:09 <pikhq> I know it's been removed in the latest version.
19:51:10 <ais523> IIRC they deprecated a.out recently
19:51:15 <ehird> I have gcc 4.0.1
19:51:17 <ehird> Which can still do it, I think
19:51:20 <ehird> Yaaaaaaaay
19:51:26 <pikhq> ehird: Still need to build a new gcc.
19:51:30 <AnMaster> "Enable doublefault exception handler" no way
19:51:37 <ehird> Disable heap randomisation?
19:51:39 <pikhq> (it's a different target)
19:51:40 <ehird> That probably takes up code, doesn't it
19:51:44 <ehird> DOESN'T IT
19:51:48 <pikhq> ehird: Yes.
19:51:52 <Rugxulo> bwahahaha
19:51:55 <Rugxulo> so crazy it's funny
19:51:59 <ehird> SLAB, SLUB or SLOB. SLOB is "Simple Allocator".
19:52:02 <ehird> I bet it's the smallest.
19:52:07 <ehird> MORE SPACE EFFICIENT
19:52:07 <pikhq> SLOB is the smallest.
19:52:09 <ehird> DRASTICALLY SIMPLER
19:52:11 <ehird> DEPENDS ON EMBEDDED
19:52:13 <ehird> yes
19:52:20 <Deewiant> Oh, I missed that one.
19:52:29 <Rugxulo> ehird, BasicLinux is pretty small, so is tomsrtbt or BlueFlops
19:52:29 <ehird> Can you -fomit-frame-pointer on the kernel? :P
19:52:36 <ehird> Rugxulo: Dude, those are whole meg floppies
19:52:41 <ehird> We're going for 200 KiB range to start with
19:52:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, there's a config option for that.
19:52:44 <ehird> Holy grail is under 100 KiB
19:52:48 <Rugxulo> I meant the kernel only
19:52:50 <Rugxulo> should be small-ish
19:52:55 <Rugxulo> BTW, what version are you trying, 2.6?
19:53:00 <ehird> The latest
19:53:01 <ehird> That's the fun
19:53:03 <Rugxulo> ah
19:53:12 <ehird> It's so bloated and cute
19:53:20 <Rugxulo> (Smash TV): "Good luck, you'll need it!"
19:53:28 <Rugxulo> heh, even Linus called it bloated
19:53:30 <ehird> Do you think the dynamic ticks / tickless system will have less code?
19:53:35 <ehird> Doesn't have to handle... ticks... does it?!
19:53:43 <ehird> Of course it has to handle a bunch of other shit too I guess :P
19:53:48 <Deewiant> :-P
19:53:52 <Deewiant> I'll try it in a moment
19:54:01 <Deewiant> 277K with SLOB instead of SLAB.
19:54:09 <Deewiant> (283232)
19:54:20 <ehird> │ Calculate simpler /proc/<PID>/wchan values. If this option │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ is disabled then wchan values will recurse back to the │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ caller function. This provides more accurate wchan values, │
19:54:22 <ehird> │ at the expense of slightly more scheduling overhead. │
19:54:23 <ehird> Simpler, ey
19:54:26 <ehird> Oh wait
19:54:28 <ehird> /proc
19:54:30 <ehird> IRRRRRRRRRR-ELEVANT
19:54:53 <ehird> Pentium Pro? PENTIUM FUCKING PRO?
19:54:53 <ehird> I'm not a rich asshole
19:54:53 <ehird> I'm a 386 man
19:54:53 <ehird> And that's all I am
19:55:13 <ehird> I wonder if Generic x86 support's optimisations will decrease code size
19:55:32 <ehird> │ Enabled scanning of DMI to identify machine quirks. Say Y │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ here unless you have verified that your setup is not │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ affected by entries in the DMI blacklist. Required by PNP │
19:55:33 <ehird> │ BIOS code. │
19:55:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, tickless adds about 2K.
19:55:35 <ehird> Dare I disable it
19:55:39 <ehird> DARE I DISABLE IT
19:55:56 <ehird> Yes I dare
19:56:19 <ehird> No forced preemption, last code
19:56:20 <ehird> *less
19:56:21 <Rugxulo> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/linus-torvalds-gives-windows-7-a-big-thumbs-up/
19:56:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Generic X86 adds about 9K.
19:56:23 <ehird> Man this will be slow as shit
19:56:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: Old
19:56:47 <SimonRC> Rugxulo: it *is* Torvalds
19:56:49 <ehird> │ This option is required by programs like DOSEMU to run 16-bit legacy │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ code on X86 processors. It also may be needed by software like │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ XFree86 to initialize some video cards via BIOS. Disabling this │
19:56:51 <ehird> │ option saves about 6k. │
19:56:52 <ehird> SUPREME BULLSHIT
19:56:57 <SimonRC> I wasn't certain when I say it before
19:57:02 <SimonRC> *saw
19:57:15 <ehird> Have you got high memory support on, Deewiant?
19:57:16 <ehird> WHO
19:57:16 <ehird> NEEDS
19:57:17 <ehird> IT
19:57:22 <Deewiant> Of course not.
19:57:29 <ehird> │ This is the portion of low virtual memory which should be protected │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ from userspace allocation. Keeping a user from writing to low pages │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ can help reduce the impact of kernel NULL pointer bugs. │
19:57:32 <ehird> Wonder if that affects the binary
19:57:36 <ehird> CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR
19:57:39 <ehird> I mean, size
19:57:39 <Deewiant> 100Hz instead of 250 -> 282960
19:57:47 <ehird> Is that l ower
19:57:49 <ehird> *lower
19:57:51 <Deewiant> Yes.
19:57:56 <ehird> Is there anything below 100Hz
19:57:59 <Deewiant> No.
19:58:06 <ehird> HACK IT IN
19:58:13 <Deewiant> 0Hz!!
19:58:19 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Physical address where the kernel is loaded (NEW) │ │
19:58:20 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │
19:58:20 <ehird> kerching?
19:58:27 <Deewiant> Even 1000Hz was smaller than 250Hz, actually
19:58:32 <ehird> :D
19:58:32 <Deewiant> Kerching?
19:58:37 <ehird> As in, relevant?
19:58:41 <Deewiant> I have them at 0 and 0x10000
19:58:50 <ehird> Does that change the actual binary
19:58:51 <ehird> size
19:58:54 <Deewiant> Beats me
19:59:03 <ehird> :D
19:59:22 <Deewiant> Evidently 0xffff also works for the latter... will see if that changes anything
19:59:47 * ehird enables a.out support, I'll have to crosscompile the binaries anyway
20:00:04 <Deewiant> Nope, #error "Invalid value for CONFIG_PHYSICAL_ALIGN"
20:00:53 <Deewiant> Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:01:00 <Rugxulo> how big is the generic kernel?
20:01:07 <pikhq> Think it has to be sizeof(void*)-aligned.
20:01:08 <Deewiant> "The generic kernel"?
20:01:09 <Rugxulo> and why not try something like Minix instead? (probably smaller)
20:01:18 <Rugxulo> generic as in "everything included"
20:01:22 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Missing the point FTW.
20:01:23 <Deewiant> pikhq: It didn't accept 0x1000 or anything smaller starting with 0x1
20:01:29 <pikhq> Deewiant: Hmm.
20:01:56 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying this isn't a worthy exercise, but Minix is probably more "minimal"
20:01:58 <Deewiant> 0x2000 was the smallest power of two it accepted
20:02:03 <AnMaster> hrm 323264
20:02:04 <AnMaster> why
20:02:09 <ehird> │ CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD: │
20:02:09 <ehird> │ │
20:02:09 <ehird> │ Say yes to avoid building firmware. Firmware is usually shipped │
20:02:10 <Deewiant> What why
20:02:12 <ehird> │ with the driver, and only when updating the firmware a rebuild │
20:02:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with or without upx?
20:02:15 <ehird> │ should be made. │
20:02:17 <Deewiant> Without.
20:02:18 <ehird> CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD
20:02:20 <ehird> "If unsure say Y"
20:02:22 <ehird> Sounds good anyway
20:02:24 * ehird enables block devices SHOCK HORROR
20:02:26 <ehird> Hmm... floppy disk, RAM block, or VeryOldHardDisk.
20:02:28 <ehird> Probably RAM block is the simplest, but then everything has to fit into the bootsector
20:02:31 <ehird> NOT PRACTICAL
20:02:32 <ehird> Although that would be awesome
20:02:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you don't have extra firmware I don't think that makes a difference
20:02:36 <ehird> whoa
20:02:38 <ehird> flood
20:02:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah your was minimal unusable right?
20:02:40 <ehird> Deewiant: does it make it smaller?
20:02:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yep
20:02:46 <AnMaster> right
20:02:50 <ehird> The alignment
20:02:51 <ehird> thing
20:03:14 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-10-24 22:00:52 ( Deewiant) Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:03:26 <ehird> Right, just confirming
20:03:34 <ehird> I wonder whether Very old hard disk or Normal floppy disk will be smaller
20:03:53 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm building an allyesconfig for you
20:04:16 <Rugxulo> :-)
20:04:16 <ehird> :D
20:04:22 <Rugxulo> I think *BSD is typically like 8 MB for generic
20:04:29 <ehird> Does that support all architectures, Deewiant?
20:04:30 <Deewiant> This'll be 32-bit
20:04:35 <ehird> KERNELGLOT
20:04:35 <Deewiant> ehird: I doubt it?
20:04:38 <Rugxulo> (OpenBSD is a little smaller due to no modules or compatibility or whatever, I think)
20:04:44 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what flavour of x86 it selects anyway
20:04:54 <Deewiant> Probably the default, which is that PentiumPro or whatever
20:04:57 <ehird> This sort of stuff has some sorta practical usage! http://stali.suckless.org/
20:05:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft, Core2 4eva
20:05:24 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: This won't have any modules, of course
20:05:32 <Deewiant> Since everything'll be built-in. :-P
20:05:40 <Rugxulo> ehird, GCC doesn't really do much beyond PPro (CMOV..)
20:05:45 <Deewiant> I should've timed the build...
20:05:48 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure that's what it means
20:05:52 <Rugxulo> nah, that's okay
20:05:56 <ehird> So guys, very old hard disk or floppy
20:06:01 <Rugxulo> one guy told me it took him 30 mins. to rebuild his FreeBSD kernel
20:06:03 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it knows about some instruction timings / whatever
20:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no floppy, no disk for me
20:06:16 <Rugxulo> floppy
20:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going for initramfs instead
20:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Wherefore art thou busybox
20:06:25 <AnMaster> with a single binary
20:06:25 <Deewiant> E.g. on x86 processor X instruction I is preferable to J, but not on processor Y.
20:06:26 <ehird> AnMaster: LOL
20:06:29 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, good :-)
20:06:30 <ehird> AnMaster: That'll bloat the shit out of it
20:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it will be smaller
20:06:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: Why floppy, why not disk
20:06:58 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, yes, but "pentiumpro" is just a synonym for "i686" anyways (and "generic", last I checked)
20:07:03 <ehird> It explicitly states the disk thing is for very old disks and is unfancy
20:07:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Sure, but "yonah" and "core2" and whatever aren't, so it does do something with that info. :-P
20:07:47 <Rugxulo> barely
20:07:48 <Deewiant> ehird: There is a third option: try both!
20:07:57 <ehird> Lazy
20:08:03 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: It implies various SSE things, of course.
20:08:15 <Rugxulo> yes, but GCC isn't too great at that (although at least 4.3.2+ tries ...)
20:08:25 <Deewiant> Not sure if the kernel benefits from that at all unless you build in the various crypto algos
20:08:26 <Rugxulo> very very weakly, but it does try
20:08:29 <Deewiant> heh
20:08:34 <ehird> Hmm
20:08:36 <ehird> My thteory
20:08:37 <ehird> theory
20:08:41 <ehird> The floppy disk thing is common
20:08:41 <ehird> More bloat
20:08:48 <ehird> So old creaky minimal disk = less bloat
20:08:53 <Rugxulo> besides, there is no Core1 tuning at all, I think you have to use prescott (or maybe nocona)
20:08:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can't use SSE in kernel sanely iirc
20:09:00 <Rugxulo> not that most people have that (me either)
20:09:07 <ehird> Core = netburst
20:09:11 <ehird> Netburst = Pentium4
20:09:21 <Rugxulo> no, Core 1 was based upon Pentium-M
20:09:25 <Rugxulo> which was mobile P3 w/ SSE2
20:09:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why not?
20:09:30 <Rugxulo> lot less energy needed
20:09:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lzma?
20:09:36 <Deewiant> Yes...
20:09:42 <AnMaster> hrrm
20:09:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: You're right
20:09:50 <ehird> P6
20:09:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 329824
20:09:54 <Rugxulo> Core 1 didn't support 64-bit, though
20:09:59 <AnMaster> is smallest I get with block layer
20:10:15 <ehird> generic HID support = keyboard, right?
20:10:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no
20:10:25 <ehird> Oh.
20:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, generic hid is USB stuff
20:10:28 <AnMaster> you don't want that
20:10:30 <ehird> Ew, USB :P
20:10:31 <ehird> BLOAT
20:10:44 <Rugxulo> heh, it'll be a miracle if this thing runs at all ;-)
20:10:45 <AnMaster> ehird, just enable AT keyboard under input devices
20:10:58 <ehird> Ah, didn't notice that
20:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you sure an XT keyboard wouldn't be less bloated :-)
20:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anything that can emulate it?
20:11:39 <ehird> This game is basically "Find the bits of Linux everyone else has forgotten about"
20:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, huh?
20:11:55 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just a parallel port board, ask the guys at geekhack.org to find one, they'll hook you up an ebay link in a pinch :P
20:12:05 <ehird> AnMaster: The more popular bits of Linux are "improved" more
20:12:08 <ehird> = more blaot
20:12:10 <ehird> *bloat
20:12:13 <AnMaster> heh
20:12:17 <ehird> We're digging to find stuff retained from the olden days
20:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 329824 for me. Not tested
20:12:26 <Deewiant> The generic input layer can't be removed, though
20:12:40 <ehird> Where do you disable sysfs, I wonder
20:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, file systems
20:12:48 <Deewiant> Oh, wtf, I have virtual terminal support
20:12:50 <ehird> POSIX FILE LOCKING API? BULLSHIT
20:12:51 <Deewiant> What is this crap!!
20:12:51 <AnMaster> pseudo ones
20:12:54 <Deewiant> Away with it
20:12:55 <ehird> Deewiant: :D
20:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, needed for actual terminal
20:13:11 <Deewiant> Ya think?
20:13:15 <AnMaster> yeah
20:13:22 <ehird> ext2, ext3, ext4, murderfs oops I mean reiserfs
20:13:23 <AnMaster> but then you aren't doing ehird's
20:13:29 <ehird> JFS, XFS... all bloated piles of shit
20:13:32 <ehird> ok, DOS/FAT/NT It is
20:13:34 <ehird> ^______^
20:13:37 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, ramfs
20:13:39 <AnMaster> for me
20:13:46 <AnMaster> wait, forgot to enable any fs
20:13:47 <ehird> Bet I beat you eventually
20:13:58 <ehird> │ This option will enlarge your kernel by about 7 KB. If unsure, │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ answer Y. This will only work if you said Y to "DOS FAT fs support" │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ as well. To compile this as a module, choose M here: the module will │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ be called msdos. │
20:14:05 <ehird> Can't I just have FAT12 :(
20:14:05 <Deewiant> Ha, 255232.
20:14:06 <Deewiant> 250K.
20:14:20 <Deewiant> (VTs are bloated! That was 10%)
20:14:23 <AnMaster> sorry
20:14:26 <AnMaster> romfs I meant
20:14:27 <AnMaster> not ramfs
20:14:35 <ehird> XD
20:14:38 <ehird> "It's totally cool" — CONFIG_PROC_FS
20:14:47 <ehird> Cool and GIGANTIC
20:15:01 <Deewiant> allyesconfig is still building happily
20:15:09 <Rugxulo> what GCC, BTW?
20:15:18 <Deewiant> 4.4.1
20:15:26 <Rugxulo> ah, slow bastard ;-)
20:15:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Make sure to enable US-ASCII in Native language support
20:15:34 <ehird> in filesystems
20:15:44 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you need to have at least one there
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Root device is (252, 0)
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Setup is 11980 bytes (padded to 12288 bytes).
20:15:46 <AnMaster> System is 312 kB
20:15:46 <AnMaster> CRC cc56d59b
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Kernel: arch/x86/boot/bzImage is ready (#4)
20:15:46 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/src/kernel/linux-2.6.31.5 $ du -b arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:15:48 <Rugxulo> but I admire you using it (most Linuxes don't even have beyond 4.3.3 yet)
20:15:48 <AnMaster> 331280 arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:15:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no need
20:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you are doing FAT
20:15:59 <Rugxulo> although 4.4.2 is out ;-))
20:15:59 <ehird> Ah
20:16:06 <ehird> Hmm
20:16:10 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Arch Linux's package.
20:16:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, is ASCII built-in? It's an option
20:16:15 <ehird> ehh
20:16:18 <AnMaster> eh
20:16:20 <AnMaster> what
20:16:21 <ehird> I'll go with FAT disks for now
20:16:23 <ehird> can always change it
20:16:30 <Rugxulo> FAT == BLOAT !!!
20:16:33 <Rugxulo> OMG
20:16:34 <Deewiant> FAT == FAT
20:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't built in. Kernel uses unicode for FSes internally
20:16:41 <ehird> UNICODE?
20:16:44 <ehird> OMG BLOAT HUGE
20:16:46 <Rugxulo> lol
20:16:48 <Rugxulo> yup
20:16:49 <ehird> CODE LOTS OF CODE KILL
20:16:52 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure yes
20:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, probably it doesn't actually care
20:17:09 <Rugxulo> that's nothing, Win7 needs 16 GB of space (and twice that if you use XP Mode)
20:17:18 <AnMaster> to it, it is just "not \0, not /"
20:17:23 <ehird> │ │ [*] Early printk (NEW) │ │
20:17:24 <Deewiant> Of course, Win7 is more than just a kernel.
20:17:29 <ehird> How does that work, I don't even have printk
20:17:37 <AnMaster> ehird, he
20:17:44 <ehird> He what?!?!?!
20:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe untested paths
20:17:48 <Rugxulo> yeah, it lets 5-year-old girls make slideshows with copyrighted songs
20:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "heh"
20:17:54 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Use 4Kb for kernel stacks instead of 8Kb │ │
20:17:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Reduces size?
20:18:05 <ehird> │ This option allows trapping of rare doublefault exceptions that │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ would otherwise cause a system to silently reboot. Disabling this │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ option saves about 4k and might cause you much additional grey │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ hair. │
20:18:08 <ehird> DIE
20:18:13 <Deewiant> Oh, good find.
20:18:15 <ehird> No port-IO delay
20:18:18 <ehird> Disable that
20:18:19 <ehird> It's nearby
20:18:22 <Deewiant> I did.
20:18:33 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Allow gcc to uninline functions marked 'inline' │ │
20:18:37 <Deewiant> Yep.
20:18:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Might that shrink it?
20:18:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yes
20:18:42 <ehird> Enabling it
20:18:43 <Deewiant> It might.
20:18:43 <ehird> Right
20:18:46 <Deewiant> Don't know if it does.
20:18:57 <AnMaster> it might, didn't test without it
20:18:58 <ehird> Wow, I'm done.
20:19:01 <ehird> Uh, how do I save?
20:19:03 <ehird> Is that automatically done?
20:19:12 <Deewiant> Quit and it'll ask
20:19:15 <Rugxulo> -march=i386 -Os -s -fomit-frame-pointer -malign-jumps=2 -malign-loops=2 -malign-functions=2 (I think ... although this is obviously untested on a kernel)
20:19:19 <Deewiant> There's also an explicit save at the top-level
20:19:30 <Deewiant> Oo, allyesconfig is LD'ing
20:19:35 <Deewiant> And taking a while
20:19:37 <ehird> [~/Downloads/linux-2.6.31.5]$ cp .config ../linuxconfig
20:19:41 <Rugxulo> should've used Gold :-D
20:19:44 <ehird> Time for make bzImage?????
20:19:52 <AnMaster> ehird, just make?
20:19:54 <ehird> How long will this take, I wonder
20:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Deewiant does it this way
20:19:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:20:07 <AnMaster> mh
20:20:09 <ehird> Error error error
20:20:10 <AnMaster> mhm*
20:20:10 <ehird> It wants elf.h
20:20:12 <ehird> How surprising
20:20:16 <ehird> Fuck, uh
20:20:22 <ehird> Someone wanna build this for me?
20:20:23 <AnMaster> ehird, worked for me?
20:20:24 <ehird> Can't really, you know
20:20:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Hey, 255424 with 4kb stacks
20:20:26 <ehird> Get elf.h
20:20:27 <ehird> Being on OS X
20:20:27 <Deewiant> A pessimization!!
20:20:29 <ehird> And such
20:20:30 <ehird> Deewiant: :D
20:20:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Increase the stacks!
20:20:39 <ehird> Or can't you
20:20:53 <ehird> Which one of you kindly fellows can I enlist to copy this .config over and build it
20:20:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_09/mn7105_cover.gif
20:21:00 <Deewiant> 8kb stacks was 255232
20:21:13 <AnMaster> ehird, where is it?
20:21:13 <Deewiant> Woo, allyesconfig is done
20:21:18 <Deewiant> 27M
20:21:19 <ehird> zzo38: :D
20:21:20 <Deewiant> 28285056
20:21:20 <ehird> AnMaster: My disk
20:21:21 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: ^
20:21:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Quite small
20:21:27 <ehird> *Quite small
20:21:28 <Deewiant> LZMA'd
20:21:30 <AnMaster> ehird, upload it somewher
20:21:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Want me to pastebin it?
20:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, nah
20:21:37 <AnMaster> ehird, want to wget it
20:21:39 <Rugxulo> 27 MB? stripped?
20:21:45 <Deewiant> strip -s?
20:21:49 <Rugxulo> zzo38: it's a Mac!! :-)
20:21:57 <ehird> No, it's an Apple
20:21:57 <Deewiant> Or what?
20:22:06 <Rugxulo> just strip
20:22:11 <Rugxulo> plain strip
20:22:13 <Deewiant> strip:bzImage: File format not recognized
20:22:19 <Deewiant> Can't do LZMA.
20:22:20 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/668209.txt?key=dxgyzbdi6maappqvzlocq
20:22:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Thanks
20:22:22 <Deewiant> Presumably.
20:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: (for 32-bit please)
20:22:34 <Rugxulo> heh, 27 MB is pretty big
20:22:35 <ehird> CONFIG_OUTPUT_FORMAT="elf32-i386"
20:22:36 <ehird> Eurgh
20:22:43 <ehird> Do you have the ability to make that a.out?
20:23:02 <ehird> If so, uh, please do :/
20:23:05 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Well, Linux does support a lot more stuff than your average BSD.
20:23:10 <AnMaster> ehird, going
20:23:16 <Rugxulo> obviously, it's three times as big!
20:23:17 <ehird> Going
20:23:18 <ehird> Gone!
20:23:22 <Deewiant> :-)
20:23:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ...
20:23:28 <ehird> What.
20:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and I only have gcc 4.x here
20:23:35 <AnMaster> what with this being ubuntu
20:23:37 <ehird> So? 4.0.1 does it, I think :P
20:23:43 <AnMaster> ehird, 4.3
20:23:46 <ehird> Anyway, ELF is fine
20:23:49 <ehird> The kernel only supports a.out
20:23:50 <ehird> But yeah
20:23:57 <ehird> I'll need to crosscompile to compile the busyboxing
20:24:02 <ehird> Hmm, can you even use elf.h on a non-ELF system
20:24:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I have 4.4 and 4.5-snapshot too
20:24:15 <AnMaster> but the latter one miscompiles everything
20:24:23 <Deewiant> That's handy
20:24:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah isn't it
20:24:32 <Deewiant> Yep!
20:24:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does do LTO though
20:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird, your kernel: 342976 arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:25:04 <Deewiant> I got 342544
20:25:09 <AnMaster> mine was 331280
20:25:11 <ehird> Good first start
20:25:13 <AnMaster> :PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
20:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, want me to upload the bzimage somewhere?
20:25:36 <ehird> Gonna have to get jiggy wit' it, as is the vernacular, I gather, to further this downwardsly
20:25:39 <AnMaster> if so, give me a command line to execute to do it
20:25:42 <AnMaster> should use cur,
20:25:43 <AnMaster> curl*
20:25:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It's an ELF that can only load a.outs and I have no system to do anything
20:25:45 <ehird> So no
20:25:56 <ehird> Besides, who cares if it works if it works in theory?
20:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you said it had to boot in a VM?
20:26:10 <AnMaster> originally
20:26:14 <ehird> THEORETICALLY
20:26:18 <ehird> Who tests things/
20:26:20 <ehird> *?
20:26:21 <ehird> That takes work.
20:26:29 <AnMaster> oh ok
20:26:37 <Rugxulo> 10/24/2009 02:26 PM 11,481,646 netbsd-GENERIC
20:26:42 <ehird> I wonder if the MISC binary support is smaller than the a.out binary support
20:26:47 <ehird> │ If you say Y here, it will be possible to plug wrapper-driven binary │
20:26:48 <AnMaster> CC net/nonet.o
20:26:48 <AnMaster> LD net/ieee802154/built-in.o
20:26:48 <AnMaster> LD net/wireless/built-in.o
20:26:48 <AnMaster> LD net/built-in.o
20:26:48 <ehird> │ formats into the kernel. You will like this especially when you use │
20:26:48 <ehird> │ programs that need an interpreter to run like Java, Python, .NET or │
20:26:49 <ehird> │ Emacs-Lisp. It's also useful if you often run DOS executables under │
20:26:50 <ehird> ...wait, what
20:26:52 <AnMaster> ehird, that was interesting ^
20:26:52 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:26:56 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:26:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Ooh
20:27:03 <ehird> I must expurgate
20:27:20 <AnMaster> ehird, can't be done. I checked
20:27:23 <ehird> What
20:27:24 -!- madbrain has joined.
20:27:26 <AnMaster> LD drivers/video/backlight/built-in.o
20:27:29 <AnMaster> that though... can
20:27:36 <ehird> ..................................... You can't get rid of wireless?
20:27:38 <zzo38> Pokemon Philosophy is a complex subject filled with contradictions. Many subphilosophies are used of it, based on opinion, context, and other things. For example, I have the terms "strongly basic" and "weakly basic" used to describe some things, and other terms are used too. Maybe you can guess what these terms mean, maybe not. Maybe I should make a wiki of it
20:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird, want full built output
20:27:40 <AnMaster> ?
20:27:40 <ehird> What is that fucking bullshit crapass
20:27:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Suer
20:27:44 <ehird> *Sire
20:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, no
20:27:45 <ehird> Sure
20:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it is just a placeholder wireless thingy
20:28:06 <ehird> Just done /backlight, nothing I can find
20:28:10 <ehird> To disable
20:28:34 <AnMaster> ehird, under video stuff
20:28:38 <Rugxulo> NetBSD: 11.5 MB, Linux: 27 MB
20:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway http://pastebin.ca/1641881
20:28:42 <ehird> Where, I searched
20:28:42 <Rugxulo> quite a difference
20:28:50 * ehird does romfs on a floppy disk or something
20:29:06 <Rugxulo> anyone ever tried BefiOS?
20:29:16 <ehird> │ This is a very small read-only file system mainly intended for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ initial ram disks of installation disks, but it could be used for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ other read-only media as well. Read │
20:29:18 <ehird> │ <file:Documentation/filesystems/romfs.txt> for details. │
20:29:19 <ehird> Perfect
20:29:19 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm not sure whether 'allyesconfig' is the fully generic thing, anyway; it may include a lot of 'disable X'.
20:29:22 <Rugxulo> sorry, BefOS
20:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I told you
20:29:31 <ehird> On a floppy
20:29:33 <ehird> It's genius
20:29:34 <ehird> Or a disk
20:29:37 <ehird> whichever is smaller.
20:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you only get one more compile from me
20:29:56 <Rugxulo> http://www.catseye.tc/projects/befos/
20:29:57 <AnMaster> then I'm busy
20:29:59 <ehird> Then I have to pay?
20:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh good idea
20:30:14 <ehird> Hey Deewiant
20:30:22 <ehird> Can you see which is bigger, floppy disk driiver or very old hard disk driver
20:30:22 <ehird> Thx
20:30:50 <AnMaster> $ file arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:30:50 <AnMaster> arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o: current ar archive
20:30:52 <AnMaster> evil
20:30:54 <AnMaster> *.o
20:30:56 <AnMaster> for a *.a
20:31:14 <AnMaster> $ du -b arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:31:14 <AnMaster> 8 arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:31:37 <AnMaster> or file could be misdetecting
20:32:23 <AnMaster> ehird, [ ] Supported processor vendors --->
20:32:25 <AnMaster> try that
20:32:29 <AnMaster> disable all but one
20:32:35 <AnMaster> should remove some code to check
20:32:38 <AnMaster> for the other ones
20:32:52 <AnMaster> though it might be in the padded setup hm
20:33:15 <ehird> It's totally disabled
20:33:41 <augur> rain!
20:33:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Yo
20:33:45 <ehird> Hi augur
20:33:51 <augur> hey
20:34:05 <augur> weird rain
20:34:13 <augur> its making some pinging noise outside
20:34:28 <augur> and it sounds just like the name ping in limechat
20:34:32 <augur> XD
20:34:49 <AnMaster> augur, hail?
20:34:53 <augur> nah
20:35:12 * ehird slaps Deewiant
20:37:13 <ehird> cv
20:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oooh may I see your CV
20:37:49 <ehird> ghjkl
20:37:53 <ehird> hope that answers your question
20:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no
20:38:56 <AnMaster> Definitions of CV on the Web:
20:38:57 <AnMaster> curriculum vitae: a summary of your academic and work history
20:38:57 <AnMaster> one hundred five: being five more than one hundred
20:38:57 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:38:58 <AnMaster> interesting
20:39:00 <ehird> i need to know which of these is smaller :<
20:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you have a linux install on there?
20:39:34 <AnMaster> use it
20:39:38 <ehird> fj
20:39:51 <AnMaster> .fj is the country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Fiji.
20:40:09 <madbrain> anmaster: isn't the english name for CV "resumé" ?
20:40:25 <AnMaster> madbrain, maybe. CV is the term I heard for it here in Sweden
20:40:33 <AnMaster> wouldn't know about English name for it
20:40:42 <ehird> cv is used in uk english
20:41:08 <AnMaster> there you go then
20:41:20 <AnMaster> who cares about US, AU or CA English?
20:42:12 <AnMaster> (probably it is something like "dinga-waly" in AU English anyway :P)
20:42:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, I rebooted to Windows. :-P
20:42:29 <AnMaster> night
20:42:29 <ehird> Haha fuck you :|
20:42:33 <ehird> AnMaster: And you
20:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ask augur to do it!
20:42:54 <ehird> augur uses os x
20:42:56 <ehird> you dolt
20:43:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but if you told him "fuck you" it would be a lot funnier
20:43:17 <ehird> not really
20:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just reboot into linux yourself
20:43:46 <AnMaster> or use a VM
20:44:03 <ehird> steps omitted: get hfs+ reading fucking working, move file, move kernel over, get used to the new environment, reconnect to irc, blah bla hla ldfgdfklv,hbjk
20:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, eh. Just pastebin it, write down url on paper, enter the url again on the other side
20:44:51 <AnMaster> and start using a bouncer again
20:44:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
20:45:00 <ehird> oh, and redownload all the kernel?
20:45:09 <ehird> with my dog-slow internet that costs £15 per GB?
20:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh forgot that it took more than ~20 seconds for you
20:45:14 <ehird> `calc 15 £ in sek
20:45:15 <HackEgo> 15 UK = 166.055793 Swedish kronor
20:45:31 <madbrain> ie two beers? :D
20:45:37 <AnMaster> sorry, it takes about one minute for me
20:45:43 <Deewiant> £15/GB?! That sucks ass
20:45:45 <AnMaster> 20 seconds is Deewiant
20:45:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Verily
20:45:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Wasn't it 5 seconds?
20:45:56 <ehird> It is mobile and 3G, you understand
20:46:03 <ehird> The pricing is incomprehensible
20:46:06 <Deewiant> Mobile sucks ass
20:46:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh I thought that was "time left"
20:46:14 <AnMaster> but maybe
20:46:15 <madbrain> dude, in canada, mobile internet is like 3¢/kb
20:46:20 <ehird> Land line connection hasn't migrated sucks ass
20:46:21 <Deewiant> At least for downloading 60-megabyte files :-P
20:46:25 <ehird> Will only be 3-4 Mb when it has sucks ass
20:46:31 <ehird> madbrain: What, mobile "broadband"?
20:46:32 <ehird> Or wired
20:46:39 <madbrain> that's 30000$/Gb
20:46:44 <madbrain> like, not wired
20:46:52 <madbrain> specifically cell phone internet
20:47:07 <madbrain> used in a place like mexico to get roaming charges
20:47:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe, I didn't look at it in too much detail myself.
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, ok just checked 74s at 819K/s
20:47:23 <AnMaster> according to wget
20:47:44 <ehird> When I move to Sweden and steal that 4 Gb connection they gave to that guy's grandma
20:47:46 <ehird> YOU'LL ALL BE CRYING
20:47:48 <ehird> AND NOT LAUGHING
20:47:50 <ehird> CRYING INSTEAD
20:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, um this is 8 mbit down ADSL
20:48:00 <madbrain> ehird: specifically this http://your.rogers.com/Business/productsservices/wireless/servicesaddons/pccards.asp?&cm_mmc=grdrt-_-all-_-en-_-stick
20:48:01 <AnMaster> 1 mbit up
20:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Your statement is apropos of nothing
20:48:20 <AnMaster> oh grandma
20:48:23 <ehird> madbrain: more or less expensive, I'm too tired to work it out
20:48:26 <fizzie> ineiros just downloaded a 60M file with my 3G stick, which is contractually limited to 384k. I guess it was some 15 minutes.
20:48:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Some internet guy
20:48:31 <AnMaster> it was 40 gbps
20:48:33 <AnMaster> wasn't it
20:48:35 <ehird> No
20:48:36 <ehird> 4
20:48:38 <AnMaster> sure?
20:48:42 <ehird> 100%
20:49:23 <madbrain> ehird: like, some people used it in the dominican republic and raked up bills of 1500$ from 3 or 4 sessions of about 10 minutes each
20:49:25 <ehird> I keep fingering the keyboard for my f key's nub, but I replaced it with another key
20:49:28 <ehird> madbrain: ha
20:49:49 <fizzie> Mobile roaming has some really incredible prices. And often huge granularity in the pricing.
20:50:22 <ehird> it's just depressing that I'm gonna make the leap from mobile ... to ... 3-4 Mb adsl
20:50:25 <ehird> fucking woop
20:50:37 <fizzie> Roaming GPRS in Italy (for our Finnish operators) was something like 10 EUR/megabyte.
20:51:09 <madbrain> ""Data Other data 4,220.00 Kb 211.00DL $211.00 Txt ""
20:51:25 <fizzie> (But since one operator counted it in 10k block, sending small emails with a custom-built proggie was still cheaper than SMS.)
20:51:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:51:35 <fizzie> s/block/blocks/
20:52:09 <madbrain> ehird: that's why mobile telephony isn't as popular in canada as in other countries... their rates are astronomic
20:52:17 <fizzie> Hey, it's the altparty supercomputer democompo real soon now.
20:53:01 <ehird> we can't get cable, fibre-optic, pony-delivered internet, anything here, just regular adsl dog slow at 3-4 Mb/s because the exchange is in another fucking town >_<
20:53:03 <ehird> stupid internets
20:53:17 <fizzie> They had invited a guy from Cray, and he had brought one of those "put-it-unside-your-desk" "supercomputers" (Cray CX1, I think) with him. (The actual competition used one of CSC's machines, I think.)
20:53:29 <ehird> Unside?
20:54:20 <fizzie> "Under", heh.
20:54:36 <fizzie> And apparently they're running it with the CX1 too, a shame. Makes sense, though.
20:54:48 <ehird> Ooh, hey fizzie
20:54:52 <ehird> Youuuuuuuuuuuuu have a linux system don't you
20:54:52 <ehird> >:E
20:54:54 <ehird> >:D
20:54:56 <ehird> >:)
20:55:11 <ehird> mWAHAhAHAHAHAHahAHAHAHAHAHA
20:55:11 <ehird> Ahem.
20:55:17 <fizzie> A couple, yes, but I'm not actually at them right now.
20:55:25 <ehird> CURSES! Foiled again!
20:55:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ncurses?
20:57:55 <ehird> Shush.
20:58:24 <fizzie> http://www.altparty.org/2009/competition-rules.html#csc-compo and "Technical specifications"; it's just that you can't really call the CX1 a "supercomputer"; it's just a small commodity cluster compressed into a tiny-ish box. (Okay, so the infiniband network is a bit special.)
21:09:34 <ehird> All supercomputers are commodity clusters
21:09:36 <ehird> these days
21:10:51 <Deewiant> But they come in bigger boxes.
21:15:49 -!- jix has joined.
21:17:27 <madbrain> cray parallel computer demo eh?
21:17:45 <madbrain> sounds like a challenge
21:19:58 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
21:20:59 <Oranjer1> :O
21:21:07 <Oranjer1> hello!
21:21:33 <AnMaster> yay garlic
21:21:36 <ehird> hi
21:21:45 <Oranjer1> yay tomato
21:21:54 <Oranjer1> hey ehird, AnMaster
21:21:58 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, no, I just ate half a garlic
21:21:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:22:04 <Oranjer1> oh, okay
21:22:04 <AnMaster> on a piece of bread
21:22:10 <Oranjer1> uhhh
21:22:11 <oerjan> yay water
21:22:21 <oerjan> *slurp*
21:22:22 <Oranjer1> I agree, I am glad that water exists
21:22:29 <AnMaster> AND garlic
21:22:32 <AnMaster> hm
21:22:36 <Oranjer1> yummm
21:22:42 <AnMaster> garlic flavoured water?
21:22:50 <AnMaster> good idea [y/Y]?
21:22:52 <oerjan> eek
21:22:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwc
21:24:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, on the other hand, userfriendly took a rather unexpected turn as of recently
21:24:47 <AnMaster> (iirc you read (or at least read) it?)
21:24:52 <oerjan> nope
21:25:06 <Oranjer1> uh what
21:25:09 <Oranjer1> webcomics
21:25:20 <AnMaster> (curses, past tense of read is read)
21:25:25 <AnMaster> (yeah ncurses)
21:25:32 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, iwc and uf?
21:25:45 <Oranjer1> uh what
21:25:49 <Oranjer1> iwc and uf?
21:25:51 <Oranjer1> :O???
21:25:51 <AnMaster> well
21:25:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses perfectly :D
21:26:13 <AnMaster> I just answered your question Oranjer1
21:26:19 <Oranjer1> oh okay
21:26:38 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, that is, "irregular webcomic" and "userfriendly"
21:26:52 <Oranjer1> oh okay
21:27:38 <oerjan> s/rf/r f/
21:27:49 <Oranjer1> okay oerjan okay
21:27:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, where
21:28:00 <AnMaster> oh there
21:28:14 <oerjan> i am glad my attempt to be obscure worked
21:28:17 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses per fectly :D <-- ?
21:28:26 <AnMaster> that I assuem
21:28:27 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:28:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, prefectly!
21:28:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:28:44 <Oranjer1> what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:28:45 <AnMaster> (yes intentional)
21:28:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: user friendly in two words
21:29:00 <AnMaster> right
21:29:21 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you are always so emotional and confused...
21:29:27 <Oranjer1> sorry
21:29:34 <AnMaster> heh
21:29:42 <Oranjer1> fungot, what's your emotional trauma?
21:29:43 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you keep reminding me of Sgeo
21:29:47 <fungot> Oranjer1: fnord noting in almost every case the well-nigh omnipresent sculptures, which indeed seem to have difficulty in seeing at night, he tethered his zebra to a sapling and fnord himself deliberately north along garrison street. by the time dr. waite called in person, having obtained his name and fortune. so the youth had found himself working, chilled and clad only in the fnord air. the temperature was rapidly ascending,
21:29:52 <AnMaster> ^style
21:29:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:29:56 <AnMaster> oh hahaha
21:29:59 <Sgeo> What?
21:30:06 <AnMaster> Sgeo, perfect!
21:30:34 <oerjan> that sounds traumatic indeed
21:30:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah
21:31:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sadly less so than one could have hoped with that style
21:31:05 <Oranjer1> "having obtained his name and fortune" :O
21:31:14 <AnMaster> fungot, really?
21:31:14 <Oranjer1> fungot, say something scary
21:31:17 <fungot> AnMaster: through the gates of his lost boyhood which caused a number of these the good man could truly tell nothing. it is an impression quite similar to one which i have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to those you call men, or th
21:31:17 <Oranjer1> :O
21:31:35 <AnMaster> huh
21:31:38 <Oranjer1> holy shit
21:31:41 <Oranjer1> we broke it
21:31:45 <AnMaster> it shouldn't have missed your line Oranjer1
21:31:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
21:31:54 <oerjan> time is non-euclidean in that style
21:31:58 <Oranjer1> of course
21:32:04 <Oranjer1> fungot.
21:32:06 <fungot> Oranjer1: and tore him to pieces before my eyes. a moment later i had raised one of the current arkham tales is about fat oaks that shine and move as they ought to be. they told me the hideous secret of nyarlathotep, with that torrent of wind and shrieking sound growing moment by moment, and then
21:32:23 <Oranjer1> AND THEN WHAT
21:32:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, to scared to continue
21:32:39 <Oranjer1> of course
21:32:45 <Oranjer1> this does remind me of that one game
21:32:50 <AnMaster> what game
21:32:53 <Oranjer1> where you traverse some stories
21:32:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Missing that line was perfectly normal: the last few were to him, so the anti-spamming filter kicked in.
21:32:59 <AnMaster> eh?
21:32:59 <Oranjer1> Lovecraft's one of them
21:33:05 <Oranjer1> i will try to find a link
21:33:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wrong order
21:33:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fungot, really?
21:33:15 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> fungot, say something scary
21:33:16 <fungot> AnMaster: outside, across the putrid moat and under the sea; but carter did not see this time the bodies must have been sent fnord. i am telling the truth, and i literally raced along the fnord brink, but at no time did he give up hope. early this year he made great fnord through a book he desperately fnord so at length they strove to exercise fnord, fnord
21:33:17 <fungot> AnMaster: decade on every hand, while on his chest and of apelike claws on his back; and when they had a kind of force that doesn't belong in our part of space where form does not exist at all, but concerned the more abstract matters which i have since found highly characteristic of him that this part of the lore of the past was his undoing. he stumbled on things no mortal ought ever to know, for then mankind would have become
21:33:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: On the same second
21:33:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm true
21:33:42 <Deewiant> It might've seen yours later.
21:33:48 <AnMaster> indeed
21:34:10 <Oranjer1> geez I'm all up for random fnord's but that's too much
21:34:30 <Deewiant> Lovecraft has a lot of fnords
21:34:39 <Oranjer1> hah
21:34:43 <ehird> [21:28] Oranjer1: what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:34:43 <ehird> vaguely pfsc. except too excited.
21:34:44 <Oranjer1> hell of depressing
21:34:54 <Oranjer1> pfsc
21:34:56 <Oranjer1> what
21:35:01 <ehird> http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/
21:35:13 <Oranjer1> ooooh
21:35:16 <ehird> this is the day where we refer to webcomics in acronyms
21:35:17 <Oranjer1> I have heard of that
21:35:25 <Oranjer1> I despise acronyms
21:35:27 <Oranjer1> :O
21:35:33 <Oranjer1> yes I said it what now huh
21:36:07 * ehird punches Oranjer1
21:36:16 <Oranjer1> :O
21:36:16 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, I assume you don't dislike TLAs at least?
21:36:28 <Oranjer1> uh no ?
21:36:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, so all acronyms except TLAs then?
21:37:08 <Oranjer1> uh google time
21:37:36 <Oranjer1> oh uh I am okay with no length of acronym sorry
21:37:51 <Oranjer1> TLA's (three letter acronyms) are out as well
21:38:19 <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them
21:38:46 <AnMaster> ehird, pfsc hm?
21:38:47 <ehird> WTFTSF
21:38:50 <AnMaster> looked at it
21:38:54 <AnMaster> very strange
21:39:09 <Oranjer1> ahaha I get that ehird
21:39:11 <ehird> thank you, captain obvious
21:39:19 <ehird> i am promoting you to general obvious
21:39:22 <ehird> for your keen insights into the absolutely obvious
21:39:24 <ehird> congratulations, AnMaster
21:39:26 <Oranjer1> I prefer buttersafe and Perry Bible Fellowship
21:39:35 <Oranjer1> :O
21:39:39 <ehird> pbf stopped updating often and i became a sad person
21:39:45 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them <-- I did. Some months ago
21:39:49 <AnMaster> almost a year by now
21:39:51 <AnMaster> probably
21:39:52 <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php
21:39:53 <AnMaster> at least
21:40:01 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, when I first read iwc
21:40:07 <Oranjer1> no each time you say it in a new medium
21:40:13 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, that was on irc too
21:40:15 <AnMaster> to oerjan
21:40:19 <Oranjer1> each new conversation! :O
21:40:23 <ehird> I HATE THAT GAME
21:40:26 <ehird> it's not even a game
21:40:28 <ehird> it's just shit
21:40:34 <Oranjer1> sorry ehird you are foolish
21:40:41 <Oranjer1> FOOL
21:40:41 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php <-- what is it about
21:40:42 <Oranjer1> ISH
21:40:45 <AnMaster> no flash
21:40:48 <AnMaster> I hate flash
21:40:59 <ehird> thank you AnMaster. we care about your opinion on flash
21:40:59 <Oranjer1> you...you don't even have a flash player plug-in?
21:41:00 <ehird> deeply
21:41:05 <ehird> please mention it to us all the time
21:41:10 <ehird> oh wait, never mind
21:41:11 <ehird> you already do
21:41:15 <Oranjer1> hey, ehird, guess what
21:41:20 <Oranjer1> AnMaster hates flash
21:41:24 <ehird> DOES HE
21:41:25 <ehird> wow
21:41:33 <Oranjer1> yeah I know I was like "wow" too
21:41:43 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
21:41:48 <AnMaster> Oranjer, no java plugin either
21:41:53 <Oranjer> geez man
21:41:57 <ehird> YOU ARE SO RADICAL ANMASTER
21:41:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, and javascript turned off
21:42:00 <ehird> keep fighting the good fight
21:42:03 <ehird> viva la revolucion!
21:42:03 <ehird> ohh
21:42:06 <ehird> stick it to the man
21:42:06 <Oranjer> there's one thing to hate it but uh you are missing out a lot I would say
21:42:09 <ehird> tell us some more, this is practically erotica
21:42:11 <ehird> GEEK
21:42:12 <ehird> REVOLUTION
21:42:12 <ehird> EROTICA
21:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ugh
21:42:25 <ehird> i was getting kinda tired of the once every two week thing hearing it, so
21:42:28 <Oranjer> I mean flash is like the best way to get games out there
21:42:32 <ehird> if you could deliver some flash/java/javascript related hate every day
21:42:33 <Oranjer> in real quick time
21:42:33 <ehird> that would be just fine
21:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, nice idea though
21:42:38 <ehird> just
21:42:38 <ehird> fine
21:42:43 <ehird> please do it.
21:42:44 <AnMaster> possibly lynx screenshots?
21:42:47 <ehird> s≥
21:42:51 <Oranjer> what
21:43:12 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> in real quick time <-- quicktime movies can play in vlc at least
21:43:58 <Oranjer> not quick time
21:44:02 <Oranjer> also I love vlc
21:44:11 <Oranjer> VLC PLAYER
21:44:15 <Oranjer> yay
21:44:18 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what
21:44:26 <Oranjer> it plays my downloaded movies and shows!
21:44:30 <AnMaster> err yes
21:44:33 <AnMaster> what about it
21:44:36 <Oranjer> yay copyright infringement
21:44:37 <AnMaster> "<Oranjer> VLC PLAYER"
21:44:39 <AnMaster> why that line
21:44:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer, *blink*
21:44:45 <Oranjer> BECAUSE I LOVE IT
21:44:47 <AnMaster> it is just a fucking movie player
21:44:49 <Oranjer> yay vlc player
21:44:53 <Oranjer> :O
21:44:54 <AnMaster> like mplayer or xine
21:44:56 <AnMaster> or whatever
21:44:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also it is just a fucking flash player
21:45:01 <ehird> oops hypocrite
21:45:08 <Oranjer> hahahahahahahahahaha
21:45:09 <ehird> Oranjer: quicktime+perian bitch
21:45:10 <Oranjer> oooooooooooooooooh
21:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what? No.
21:45:14 <Oranjer> perian?
21:45:16 <Oranjer> what?
21:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is a flash plugin related to a standalone movie player?
21:46:01 <ehird> reading comprehension!
21:46:02 <ehird> yaaaaaaaaaay
21:46:03 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:46:04 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:46:08 <Oranjer> here ya go that's all you need
21:46:12 <AnMaster> ehird, what you said made no sense
21:46:17 <ehird> i am pretty averse to clicking those links
21:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it did, you're just an idiot who can't understand context
21:46:27 <Oranjer> do you trust me ehird
21:46:31 <Oranjer> they are on a blog
21:46:34 <Oranjer> they are two blog posts
21:47:13 <ehird> http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfd2pvnx_87f78mt7g7_b
21:47:14 <ehird> hot ghost
21:47:19 <ehird> slightly less hot ghost
21:47:23 <ehird> warm ghost
21:47:31 <ehird> barbershop-coloured remains of outline of ghost
21:47:33 <Oranjer> haha
21:47:45 <Oranjer> "no release"
21:47:48 <Oranjer> hahahaha
21:47:51 <Oranjer> impotence
21:48:07 <ehird> that is among many of the things that barbershop-coloured remains of outlines of ghosts cannot do
21:48:26 <Oranjer> that sucks
21:48:50 <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:48:56 <Oranjer> some herbal tea
21:49:13 <ehird> also they cannot drink
21:49:15 <ehird> or swallow
21:49:19 <ehird> they do not have mouths
21:49:20 <ehird> throats
21:49:21 <Oranjer> oh
21:49:22 <ehird> blood
21:49:24 <Oranjer> that is sad
21:49:24 <ehird> stomach
21:49:26 <ehird> all those things
21:49:27 <ehird> you know
21:49:28 <Oranjer> but!
21:49:32 <Oranjer> we can rub things on them
21:49:41 <ehird> no, they do not have solidity
21:49:43 <Oranjer> like some patches and sponges full of medico
21:49:45 <Oranjer> aww
21:49:50 <Oranjer> we can....pray for them?
21:49:57 <ehird> god is not real
21:50:07 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:50:08 <Oranjer> CAN YOU PRAY FOR THE SOUL OF A LOST GHOST
21:50:09 <AnMaster> wait what
21:50:12 <AnMaster> barbershop-coloured?
21:50:18 <Oranjer> yeah AnMaster
21:50:20 <ehird> yeah just give Oranjer all the credit
21:50:21 <ehird> dickhaed
21:50:25 <AnMaster> Oranjer, how is that?
21:50:28 <ehird> *ea
21:50:28 <AnMaster> ehird, or you
21:50:34 <Oranjer> ehird, he said it
21:50:48 <AnMaster> barbershop coloured
21:50:51 <Oranjer> I would have said "merely red dashed", but ehird set a precedent
21:50:51 <AnMaster> please explain
21:51:04 <Oranjer> please explain fungot
21:51:05 <fungot> Oranjer: of rather uneven fnord quality, but to those in the ward household it was overshadowed by the odour which instantly followed it; a hideous, fnord odour which non of them had come. ahead stretched double rows of pillars, and to
21:51:17 <ehird> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1004/1424010678_52efa2603a.jpg
21:51:19 <Oranjer> obviously
21:51:29 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that
21:51:30 <AnMaster> right
21:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, err that pic makes no sense
21:52:06 <Oranjer> haha before I saw the hairpieces and wigs part I thought it was amazing that a barber could make a bald man have hair
21:52:20 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what I just meant
21:52:26 <Oranjer> hahahahaha
21:52:37 <ehird> i was thinking that too
21:52:42 <Oranjer> you gotta go SEVERAL STEPS ahead or you will be lost
21:52:43 <ehird> well
21:52:44 <ehird> "wig"
21:52:44 <ehird> duh
21:52:51 <ehird> right
21:52:52 <ehird> okay
21:52:56 <Oranjer> yep
21:52:57 <Oranjer> anyway
21:53:00 <Oranjer> did you read my links?
21:53:04 <ehird> no
21:53:08 <Oranjer> or at least skim them?
21:53:15 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what links?
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:53:31 <Oranjer> about flash and whatnot
21:53:43 <Oranjer> mostly *to* flash developers, though
21:53:52 <Oranjer> but he talks about its potential and whatnot
21:53:57 <ehird> lkjnhuygftrd'
21:53:59 <ehird> boring
21:54:01 <ehird> shit
21:54:24 <Oranjer> geez ehird I can't imagine what you would find interesting
21:54:39 <Oranjer> perhaps some mindless activity without any constructive results? :O
21:54:41 <Oranjer> ooooooooh
21:54:49 <ehird> esolangs, OSs, hci, concepts relating to thereof and derivatives
21:54:52 <ehird> nonsense
21:54:57 <ehird> all these things are acceptable
21:55:02 <ehird> and a goat
21:55:15 <Oranjer> oh okay
21:56:43 <Oranjer> fungot what do you do?
21:56:44 <fungot> Oranjer: fnord and inclined toward the amiable and innocuous phantasy of sir j. m. on train no. 5508, leaving bellows falls at fnord p.m. it ought, i calculated, to get up to arkham at least by the next century had become known as delapore.
21:56:58 <Oranjer> hahahaha
21:57:01 <Oranjer> slow train that is
21:57:36 <ehird> :D
21:59:05 <Oranjer> okay ehird
22:00:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hci?
22:00:43 <ehird> human-computer interaction
22:00:51 <Oranjer> or interface
22:01:00 <AnMaster> meh
22:01:00 <Oranjer> (so I have heard)
22:01:04 -!- immibis has joined.
22:01:11 <Oranjer> meh?
22:01:16 <Oranjer> what's your thing, then?
22:01:28 <ehird> Oranjer: AnMaster was upset when he couldn't make kde 4 look like kde 2
22:01:34 <ehird> and they dropped an incredibly minor preference from the terminal application
22:01:37 <ehird> step away, quick!
22:01:40 <Oranjer> uh kde
22:01:44 <ehird> before a tornado engulfs this place!
22:01:46 <Oranjer> ?
22:01:51 <ehird> wait.
22:01:56 <ehird> are you actually asking
22:01:58 <Oranjer> what do you mean by kde
22:02:01 <ehird> oh god i hate my life
22:02:02 <Oranjer> WHAT IS THAT
22:02:04 <Oranjer> WHAT
22:02:05 <ehird> someone kill me
22:02:11 <Oranjer> IT IS AN ACRONYM
22:02:19 <ehird> how old are you Oranjer you sure do use a lot of capital letters
22:02:19 <Oranjer> and because of your conduct, ehird, I refuse to google it
22:02:24 <AnMaster> Oranjer, a recursive one
22:02:26 <ehird> ok your loss
22:02:33 <Oranjer> no ehird no ehird
22:02:51 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what is your age
22:02:52 <madbrain> this is like a meme blender
22:02:58 <Oranjer> I am 18
22:02:58 * AnMaster suspects slightly older than ehird
22:02:59 <Oranjer> :)
22:03:01 <AnMaster> at most
22:03:02 <Oranjer> oops
22:03:05 <AnMaster> Oranjer, no way
22:03:07 <Oranjer> I meant :O
22:03:12 <Oranjer> what what is wrong
22:03:15 <Oranjer> :O
22:03:20 <AnMaster> Oranjer, more like 15?
22:03:24 <Oranjer> nope!
22:03:26 <ehird> i was going to guess 30-something with mental disorder :)
22:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand you are not typical for your age
22:03:48 <ehird> no i totally am
22:03:49 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:03:50 <Oranjer> :O
22:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, no way
22:03:56 <ehird> the planet is populated with bitter 14-year-old intellectuals
22:04:00 <ehird> we're just plotting
22:04:02 <ehird> lying in wait
22:04:03 <Rugxulo> ehird, how do I make the bot run a timed Befunge command?
22:04:05 <ehird> until the day comes
22:04:06 <ehird> THE DAY COMES
22:04:07 <AnMaster> who program in haskell
22:04:08 <AnMaster> right
22:04:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: you don't
22:04:10 <ehird> AnMaster: yes
22:04:17 <ehird> to create our infernal machines
22:04:20 <ehird> of world domination, you see
22:04:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you are no longer 14 by then
22:04:29 <ehird> THAT
22:04:31 <ehird> is where you are mistaken
22:04:35 <Rugxulo> well somebody run this and tell me how long it takes: "91+:*-:0`#@ #._"
22:04:36 <ehird> for we have stopped the aging process entirely
22:04:36 <AnMaster> aha
22:04:38 <ehird> MWAHAHIUWHAIUhiauwhiusdfghkjkl;l'
22:04:41 <Oranjer> oh hey I have heard of kde
22:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh hah
22:04:42 <ehird> g
22:04:43 <Oranjer> yay me
22:04:54 <AnMaster> I think xfce looks very nice
22:04:57 <Rugxulo> `bf +++.
22:04:58 <HackEgo> No output.
22:05:01 <Oranjer> dammit more acronyms
22:05:14 <Rugxulo> oops
22:05:15 <AnMaster> Oranjer, not sure
22:05:19 <AnMaster> it might be the actual name
22:05:22 <ehird> pol dns qos loga mt
22:05:22 <Oranjer> oh okay
22:05:25 <Rugxulo> `bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:05:25 <HackEgo> No output.
22:05:35 <Rugxulo> argh
22:05:46 <Oranjer> oh okay yeah it says "The developers' current stance is that the initialism no longer stands for anything specific."
22:05:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, on kde of xfce?
22:06:05 <Oranjer> xfce
22:06:08 <AnMaster> ah
22:06:31 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what was it originally?
22:06:41 <ehird> I AM ANGRY
22:06:43 <ehird> about flowers
22:06:48 <Oranjer> "XForms Common Environment"
22:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
22:07:00 <Oranjer> but the newer ones no longer use XForms, apparently
22:07:09 <AnMaster> what was xforms?
22:07:10 <Oranjer> why do flowers anger you so ehird
22:07:13 <Rugxulo> "X11 F*cks Computers Everywhere" ;-)
22:07:18 <Oranjer> a toolkit
22:07:32 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XForms_%28toolkit%29
22:07:33 <ehird> X11 Flourishingly Craps Eggs
22:07:38 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you mean "fucks?
22:07:40 <ehird> Eggs of 80s legacy, you understand.
22:07:54 <AnMaster> ehird, no?
22:07:58 <Rugxulo> no, I mean "fuchs" :-P
22:08:00 <ehird> Br**nfuck
22:08:42 <Rugxulo> eh*rd
22:09:00 <Rugxulo> t3h 3v1l 0n3
22:09:07 * ehird stabs Rugxulo
22:09:08 <ehird> ...
22:09:09 <Oranjer> :O
22:09:10 * ehird stabs Rugxulo
22:09:10 * ehird stabs Rugxulo
22:09:11 * ehird stabs Rugxulo
22:09:16 * Rugxulo coffs on ehird with an elf
22:09:16 <ehird> ...
22:09:16 <ehird> ...
22:09:16 * ehird stabs Rugxulo
22:09:16 <AnMaster> Ru*xulo yeah
22:09:22 <Oranjer> ehird, you stabbing people hardly proves you are not evil
22:09:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: A.out!
22:09:28 <ehird> That HURTS!
22:09:31 <ehird> Don't do that again!
22:09:32 <Rugxulo> B.out!
22:09:38 <ehird> A.out a.out a.out a.out AAAAAAAAA.OUT!
22:09:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you fail at references
22:09:46 <Oranjer> what
22:09:50 <Oranjer> what is A.out what
22:09:52 <Rugxulo> wasn't there a b.out? (forgets)
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "coffs on ehird with an elf"
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: perhaps you do
22:09:54 <AnMaster> Oranjer, google it
22:09:58 <Oranjer> FINE
22:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, no...
22:10:03 <AnMaster> ehird, "b.out"
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: COFF, ELF
22:10:04 <Oranjer> GOOGLE TAKE ME AWAY
22:10:05 <AnMaster> I meant
22:10:06 <ehird> idiot
22:10:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I got that duh
22:10:18 <AnMaster> a.out yes
22:10:20 <AnMaster> but not b.out
22:10:27 <ehird> so hhow is b.out symbolic of not getting it at all
22:10:27 <ehird> it's just a throwaway pun
22:10:28 <ehird> *how
22:10:33 <Rugxulo> hmmm, guess I thought of aoutb
22:10:39 <AnMaster> see
22:10:39 <Oranjer> I give up
22:10:42 <AnMaster> there we go
22:10:57 <AnMaster> Oranjer, first hit on google
22:10:58 <AnMaster> ,,,
22:11:02 <Oranjer> I saw it
22:11:09 <AnMaster> Oranjer, there you go then
22:11:17 <Oranjer> but like you people just love your Unix references huh
22:11:28 <AnMaster> Oranjer, um what
22:11:36 <AnMaster> Oranjer, because we all *use* unix more or less
22:11:39 <ais523> many of us use Unix/Linux
22:11:40 <AnMaster> well ehird uses OS X
22:11:40 <Oranjer> :O
22:11:41 <ais523> possibly most of us
22:11:48 <Oranjer> :(((( )))))
22:11:49 <AnMaster> but that is *nix based
22:11:52 <Rugxulo> more or less? that is the question ...
22:11:57 <ehird> Counterpoint:
22:12:01 <ais523> after all, this is a programming channel
22:12:07 <ehird> Asztal. Deewiant. that's two off the top of my head
22:12:08 <Oranjer> oh, right
22:12:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, too
22:12:17 <ehird> oh, i believe lifthrasiir too, though that's vaguer
22:12:19 <ehird> yes, oerjan
22:12:22 <ehird> oklopol
22:12:28 <ehird> (Oranjer :P)
22:12:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway Deewiant dual-boots
22:12:32 <ehird> Rugxulo
22:12:32 <AnMaster> so doesn't count
22:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it does count
22:12:39 <ehird> because he's in it a good portion of the time
22:12:44 <ehird> oklopol also has ubuntu machines
22:12:45 <ehird> irrelevant
22:12:48 <ehird> warrigal
22:12:48 <ehird> sgeo
22:12:53 <Sgeo> hm?
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant uses linux most of the time nowdays iirc
22:12:59 <ehird> So, uh, maybe 51% of us use *nix
22:13:04 <ehird> But definitely not a vast majority
22:13:19 <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:13:25 <ehird> (windows)
22:13:27 * Sgeo mostly only uses Linux when he wants to get on the web quickly
22:13:38 <Sgeo> Before I have to get ready to go to school, or some such
22:13:43 <Sgeo> Windows loads slowly
22:13:47 <AnMaster> XD
22:13:52 <Rugxulo> which Windows?
22:13:52 <ehird> Ah the simple mind of Sgeo
22:13:54 <AnMaster> Sgeo, even from suspend to disk?
22:13:55 <ehird> Like clockwork!
22:14:05 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, XP
22:14:08 <Rugxulo> you don't suspend to disk, you sleep/standby (or whatever they call it now)
22:14:15 <Sgeo> AnMaster, from hibernate is great
22:14:23 <Rugxulo> XP loads to GUI fast but isn't as usable right away (still has stuff to load)
22:14:25 <Sgeo> But I only started playing with that recently
22:14:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, um it is the same basically
22:14:48 <Rugxulo> no, one way keeps it in RAM, the other writes it to disk
22:14:53 <AnMaster> ..
22:15:00 <Sgeo> suspend to disk == hibernate
22:15:01 <AnMaster> HIBWHATEVER = SAME AS SUSPEND TO DISK
22:15:06 <AnMaster> that is what I meant
22:15:12 <AnMaster> oops the caps
22:15:12 <Rugxulo> yes, but that's not the same as standby
22:15:19 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I never said it was
22:15:22 <AnMaster> so irrelevant
22:15:22 <immibis> [10:13] <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:15:23 <immibis> ?
22:15:28 <ehird> use windows.
22:15:30 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, you need ehird's cherry, then you won't be poppin' that Caps no mo'
22:15:40 <ehird> what.
22:15:47 * Rugxulo make silly joke
22:15:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is supposed to be an additional ctrl
22:15:57 <AnMaster> so not sure what went wrong there
22:16:06 <Rugxulo> in Soviet Russia, Caps control YOU!!!
22:16:11 <immibis> i'm wondering how i got involved in that though...
22:16:13 <ehird> I JUST SLAMMED DOWN ON CAPS LOCK REALLY HARD
22:16:14 <ehird> FELT GOOD
22:16:20 <ehird> immibis: listing the people who use windows in here.
22:16:28 <Rugxulo> ehird, don't bust yer cherry
22:16:38 <AnMaster> yeah we got to know who we should stalk
22:16:41 <AnMaster> with that gun
22:16:42 <Oranjer> ah geex I am sorry for mentioning OS's in a programming channel I will never do that again
22:16:47 <AnMaster> immibis, ↑
22:16:58 <immibis> ↑ <-- what is this character?
22:17:04 <AnMaster> immibis, an up arrow
22:17:10 <AnMaster> immibis, you fail at unicode
22:17:12 <Rugxulo> Ctrl-T? (can't remember)
22:17:22 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, ? AltGr-shift-U
22:17:23 <Rugxulo> nope, Ctrl-X
22:17:25 <AnMaster> is what I used
22:17:28 <AnMaster> for the up-arrow
22:17:36 * immibis hasn't been able to find a client that runs on windows, supports scripting, supports unicode, and is free
22:17:53 <Oranjer> make one immibis!!!!!
22:17:55 <Rugxulo> Chatzilla? ERC?
22:17:56 <AnMaster> immibis, xchat silverex edition?
22:18:01 <Rugxulo> surely one of those is scriptable
22:18:11 <immibis> xchat isn't free on windows though...
22:18:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, erc is... by definition
22:18:18 <AnMaster> immibis, silverex edition
22:18:19 <AnMaster> I said
22:18:24 <Rugxulo> I figured as much (but never tried)
22:18:24 <ehird> chatzilla does those
22:18:24 <AnMaster> it is a free xchat for windows
22:18:26 * immibis tries chatzilla
22:18:27 <ehird> also, mirc
22:18:34 <Rugxulo> mirc ain't free
22:18:38 <Rugxulo> he wants free
22:18:41 <ehird> yes it is, nobody registers it.
22:18:46 <ehird> and it just bugs you for a few seconds
22:18:49 <Rugxulo> no, we've been over this before
22:18:57 <immibis> "Firefox prevented this site (addons.mozilla.org) from asking you to install software on your computer." <-- lol?
22:18:58 <Rugxulo> it used to be free (like ten years ago) but isn't anymore
22:19:21 <ehird> immibis: get the standalone
22:19:23 <Oranjer> haha immibis
22:19:25 <ehird> chatzilla.rdmsoft.com or whatever
22:19:31 <AnMaster> immibis, "from asking"?
22:19:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: it just gives a nag screen
22:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a standalone chatzilla?
22:20:42 <ehird> yes.
22:20:45 <ehird> nobody sane uses the browser plugin
22:20:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:20:53 <Rugxulo> HydraIRC is open source, supports DLL plugins, not sure if that qualifies as "scripting", though
22:21:04 * Rugxulo isn't sane, then
22:21:14 <Rugxulo> then again, we ARE in #esoteric
22:21:14 <Oranjer> uh what
22:21:22 <ais523> ehird: I used to use the browser plugin
22:21:27 <ais523> although that was rather unusual circumstances
22:21:31 <Oranjer> fungot what OS do you regularly use?
22:21:31 <fungot> Oranjer: by h. p. lovecraft and anna helen fnord
22:21:36 <Oranjer> okay
22:21:43 <Rugxulo> ha
22:22:19 <Rugxulo> `befunge 51*.@
22:22:19 <HackEgo> No output.
22:22:25 <Rugxulo> dang it
22:22:59 -!- immibis_ has joined.
22:23:11 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, try
22:23:12 <Rugxulo> >:D<
22:23:13 -!- immibis has quit ("Not that there is anything wrong with that").
22:23:20 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:23:22 <AnMaster> `befunge 55+,51*.@
22:23:23 <HackEgo> No output.
22:23:24 <AnMaster> wait
22:23:29 <Rugxulo> heh
22:23:29 <AnMaster> `befunge 51*.55+,@
22:23:30 <HackEgo> No output.
22:23:34 <AnMaster> hum
22:23:35 <Oranjer> haha
22:23:36 <AnMaster> that is odd
22:23:48 <Rugxulo> ehird knows how to make it work
22:23:53 <Rugxulo> `befunge 51*.@ > /dev/null
22:23:54 <HackEgo> No output.
22:23:56 <immibis> How can I make ChatZilla auto-identify?
22:23:59 <AnMaster> oh
22:24:02 <AnMaster> !befunge 51*.55+,@
22:24:02 <EgoBot> 5
22:24:04 <AnMaster> there
22:24:10 <Rugxulo> !befunge 51*.@
22:24:10 <EgoBot> 5
22:24:13 <Oranjer> hahahahahahahahahaha
22:24:16 <Rugxulo> !befunge 51+.@
22:24:16 <EgoBot> 6
22:24:21 -!- ehird has quit.
22:24:24 <Oranjer> should I learn befunge huh?
22:24:30 <Rugxulo> definitely
22:24:34 <Oranjer> uh okay
22:24:36 <Rugxulo> but 98 is too much, stick to 93
22:24:46 <Oranjer> what other languages should I learn simultaneously
22:24:57 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"sey ,rejnarO">:#,_@
22:24:58 <EgoBot> Oranjer, yes
22:24:59 <Rugxulo> !befunge 91+:*-:0`#@ #._
22:25:10 <Rugxulo> ETA
22:25:15 <Oranjer> hahahahaha
22:25:17 <Oranjer> indeed
22:25:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what do you think that should do?
22:25:37 <Rugxulo> eventually give me a number (I know it's slow) ;-)
22:25:37 <Oranjer> it looks like APL, in that it reads from right to left
22:25:48 <AnMaster> Oranjer, no it doesn't
22:25:54 <AnMaster> it reads in different directions
22:25:54 <Oranjer> oh okay
22:25:57 <AnMaster> depending
22:25:58 <Rugxulo> but it's not read from right to left, just sometimes it's easier to push strings backwards
22:25:58 <Oranjer> cool
22:26:01 <ais523> that particular program's going left to right
22:26:06 <ais523> just the string is written backwards
22:26:08 <Rugxulo> it can read up, down, left, right
22:26:13 <Rugxulo> it's two dimensional
22:26:13 <ais523> also diagonally
22:26:14 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it is stack based though
22:26:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and diagonally
22:26:20 <Rugxulo> 93 can't do diagonal
22:26:23 <ais523> left and right are the only ones practical on IRC, though
22:26:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I don't care about 93
22:26:32 <Rugxulo> heh
22:26:34 <Rugxulo> :-P
22:26:34 * AnMaster wrote cfunge
22:26:43 <Deewiant> !befunge98 <@_,#! #:<"Oranjer: other way around"a
22:26:43 <EgoBot> Oranjer: other way around
22:26:47 <AnMaster> the fastest 98-implementation until fizzie gets going on jitfunge
22:26:50 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, can't compile it
22:26:52 <Oranjer> ahhhhh
22:26:56 <ais523> and that program's going right-to-left
22:26:59 <ais523> so the string is /still/ backwards
22:27:01 <madbrain> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/altparty cray democompo live stream
22:27:09 <ais523> madbrain: are you a spambot
22:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that one sure was ugly
22:27:13 <Rugxulo> cray??
22:27:14 <Oranjer> haha
22:27:18 <ais523> if so, why are you in /this/ channel?
22:27:20 <Oranjer> madbrain noooooooooo spam please
22:27:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How's t hat?
22:27:24 <Oranjer> madbrain
22:27:26 <Oranjer> madbrain
22:27:27 <Deewiant> -
22:27:28 <ais523> fungot: tell madbrain that he shouldn't be here
22:27:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, <@_,#! #:<
22:27:30 <fungot> ais523: there were veiled suggestions of a monstrous fnord but could not sleep, and whilst the squat yellow foe may be creeping silently upon us. i had encountered the thing it hinted at, was more than a fraction of lord dunsany's fnord fnord blackness of the shaft.
22:27:34 <Oranjer> how does it feel to be spammed madbrain
22:27:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Something wrong? :-P
22:27:49 <ais523> Oranjer: bots don't care if they're spammed
22:27:54 <ais523> clog will just be happily recording it all
22:28:01 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't that were fizzie was too?
22:28:04 <Oranjer> I thought madbrain was a person
22:28:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Would you've preferred r #;>:#,_@; or something?
22:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty sure madbrain is *NOT* a bot
22:28:28 <ais523> hmm... madbrain claims to be on mir
22:28:30 <ais523> *mirc
22:28:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah
22:28:35 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe
22:28:44 <ais523> but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone
22:28:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't like that fairly standard right-to-left string printer?
22:28:59 <Rugxulo> !befunge 9:*.@
22:28:59 <EgoBot> 81
22:29:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed I don't
22:29:14 <Rugxulo> hmmm, wonder why the other query never returned :-P
22:29:20 <Deewiant> Meh, why not?
22:29:21 <AnMaster> I much prefer >:#,_
22:29:31 <AnMaster> so I put things that way
22:29:39 <Deewiant> Space-inefficient :-P
22:29:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it is, you are doing it wrong
22:29:54 <Deewiant> No, you are
22:30:01 <AnMaster> restructure your whole program around the strings
22:30:07 <madbrain> am not a bot
22:30:16 <Oranjer> hello madbrain
22:30:17 <Deewiant> That's not a sufficiently esolangy way of doing it
22:30:18 <Rugxulo> suuuuuure ;-)
22:30:24 <Deewiant> What is this "structure" you speak of
22:30:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh haha
22:30:33 <Deewiant> Befunge does not lend itself well to structure
22:30:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, modular block design
22:30:45 <Oranjer> I am looking for video Befunge Tutorials
22:30:47 <Deewiant> Well, it kinda does, but it's just not cool that way :-P
22:31:05 <Oranjer> does anyone know a of programming-language-tutorial making program?
22:31:08 <Oranjer> that would be cool
22:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have a hard time coding *un*structured
22:31:31 <Deewiant> Weird
22:31:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any good Befunge tutorials around
22:31:43 <Deewiant> Just put what you want to do next wherever your cursor is :-P
22:31:44 <ais523> it's one of the easier esolangs, though
22:31:47 <Deewiant> Befunge works well that way
22:31:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, global variables
22:32:02 <AnMaster> that sort of stuff
22:32:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I end up writing a frigging design document for all befunge programs :(
22:32:27 <Deewiant> Just put 'em at (0,0) and nearby so they're quick to access
22:32:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how to remember what one was used where?
22:32:50 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, try ZBefunge under Frotz, that's a good way to learn
22:32:56 <Deewiant> I usually don't have too many
22:32:58 <Oranjer> uh okay
22:33:05 <Oranjer> "under Frotz" what does that mean
22:33:09 <Deewiant> If you have a lot, put a comment wherever you start using them
22:33:14 <Rugxulo> interactive fiction interpreter (Z machine)
22:33:23 <Oranjer> oh ha
22:33:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, literate befunge :D
22:33:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I love that
22:33:31 <Deewiant> Not really
22:33:38 <AnMaster> yes really
22:33:40 <AnMaster> I do that a lot
22:33:47 <AnMaster> about 50/50 split
22:33:53 <Deewiant> The TOYS test in Mycology is a good example of my Befunge commenting IIRC
22:34:03 <Deewiant> It's still completely unreadable
22:34:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't remember it
22:34:09 <Deewiant> Far from literate
22:34:21 <ais523> this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming
22:34:22 -!- immibis_ has joined.
22:34:38 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, take a gander at this: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=10599
22:34:45 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:34:45 <AnMaster> ais523, start thinking about feather please
22:34:56 <ais523> AnMaster: please don't, I'm busy enough as it is
22:35:00 <ais523> and more or less recovering from madness
22:35:03 <ais523> although, I have been slightly
22:35:03 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:35:14 <ais523> e.g. I think my problems can be solved by a #?# operators
22:35:16 <ais523> *operator
22:35:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, befunge98 I hope
22:35:23 <ais523> which determines if an arbitrary object is # or not
22:35:23 <AnMaster> befunge93 is not interesting
22:35:28 <Rugxulo> nope, 93 only
22:35:32 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, fail
22:35:45 <Rugxulo> it's plenty interesting unless you want really weird functionality
22:35:48 <ais523> 93 is so much easier to write an interp for than 98...
22:35:49 <Rugxulo> it's meant to be fun, not serious
22:35:50 <Oranjer> anyway, I must go now
22:35:52 <Oranjer> for a while
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ais523, "is same as"?
22:36:00 <Oranjer> see ya peoples
22:36:05 <Deewiant> ais523: 93 is /too/ easy to write an interpreter for :-P
22:36:09 <Rugxulo> 98 seems like a joke on a joke, as in "lets be UNfun"
22:36:13 <Deewiant> Mostly due to the 80x25 limit
22:36:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed
22:36:25 <Rugxulo> Be-*un*fun-ge
22:36:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Hey, it's design by committee
22:36:30 <ais523> 98 is actually usable, 93 has too mayn aribtrary restricitons
22:36:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
22:36:49 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what have you written in 98 then?
22:36:58 <Rugxulo> anything useful or interesting?
22:37:02 <Deewiant> Mycology!
22:37:03 <Deewiant> :-P
22:37:06 <ais523> I don't use Befunge much
22:37:09 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh, a mine sweeper game. most of it. Not completely finished yet
22:37:12 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: bo-ring ;-)
22:37:16 <AnMaster> but most parts of it work
22:37:23 <ais523> I wrote a Deadfish interp once, I forget which version of Befunge, maybe it worked in both
22:37:24 <Deewiant> Writing it is/was plenty of fun
22:38:09 <ais523> Esolang needs an article on Challenger
22:38:16 <AnMaster> ais523, oh what?
22:38:17 <Rugxulo> BTW, Deewiant, I suspect the official B93 interpreter only printed "0 1 " due to line buffering, it must've choked later on (obviously)
22:38:20 <ais523> that lang looks like a cross between Befunge and Sansism, atm
22:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, the space shuttle?
22:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's mentioned behind Rugxulo's link
22:38:39 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm surprised it even gave "0 1 " if it's line buffered
22:38:40 <AnMaster> Sansism?
22:38:42 <Rugxulo> Challenger was inspired a bit by Befunge with Tomasz's flair to it
22:38:47 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism
22:40:07 <Rugxulo> yes, he named it after the shuttle, dunno why
22:40:29 <Rugxulo> I guess he was gonna call it something related to 86 (a la 386) but '86 was the year of the crash, so ....
22:41:49 <Rugxulo> bah, if only mtve was actually here ... :-P
22:42:15 <AnMaster> who?
22:42:39 <Rugxulo> MTV Europe
22:46:05 <AnMaster> why
22:48:37 <Rugxulo> why? 'cause he's interested in Befunge, ETA, etc.
22:49:01 <Rugxulo> (my point is that he's here but not "here" here)
22:50:13 <Rugxulo> welp, if everyone is silent, guess I'll jet off
22:50:25 <Rugxulo> @
22:50:28 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
22:50:30 <ais523> hmm... this channel isn't constantly active
22:50:33 <ais523> but it's nice when it's ontopic
22:51:29 <AnMaster> heh
22:54:29 <madbrain> hmm
22:55:08 <madbrain> how do you recreate the "chess" effect, ie a complex game with emergent properties from simple rules
22:59:07 <AnMaster> madbrain, eh
22:59:10 <AnMaster> what?
23:07:38 <jix> madbrain: allow many choices and long term effect of them?
23:08:55 <jix> while allowing similar choices to have similar effects in the short term? (so it is possible to detect certain patterns)
23:09:05 <jix> would be my first attempt
23:09:23 <madbrain> hm
23:09:58 <madbrain> I think it's a problem of how non-linear the choice space is pver time
23:10:37 <madbrain> if it's too non-linear it's hard for moves to have long term consequences and it esentially becomes a sort of flip choice game at the end
23:10:58 <madbrain> if it's too linear then making each choice and the game becomes too simple
23:21:14 <oerjan> so it's sort of that chaos = border betwen order and disorder thing...
23:21:14 <AnMaster> night →→→
23:21:53 <fax> madbrain: that's a great question
23:22:39 <oerjan> except a little closer to order, so humans have a chance to grasp it
23:42:39 <Ilari> Just like in CA there's thin line seperating patterns that shrink from those that expand... :-)
23:44:05 * Sgeo vaguely wants to learn how to write an Operating System
23:46:06 <oerjan> Ilari: and a thin line of those CAs that have complicated behavior at your thin line, iirc
23:50:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:55:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: there are wikis about it
23:55:31 <SimonRC> you could start from something that already exists
23:55:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now
23:55:42 <SimonRC> e.g. a colorForth derivative
23:56:09 <SimonRC> or a retroForth derivative
←2009-10-23 2009-10-24 2009-10-25→ ↑2009 ↑all