< 1255910629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1255914587 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255914667 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255914697 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1255914923 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-117-216.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255915441 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1255922921 0 :pingveno!n=quassel@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255923574 0 :madbrain!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1255925071 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255925979 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1255925979 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1255926005 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1255926005 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1255930060 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255930224 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1255930849 0 :Gracenotes_!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1255931015 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1255931020 0 :Gracenotes_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gracenotes < 1255931714 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255931748 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1255931956 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1255932050 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When playing crap, one guy biased one of the dice to be fixed at 5 (no other numbers may be rolled). Now, you have the chance to bias the other dice using whatever probabilities you want (within range, of course). What allotment of probabilities for the second dice would make the smallest probability of winning? (assuming the first dice is fixed at 5) < 1255932188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) I don't know crap (2) Do your own homework < 1255932285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you don't know the rule of crap, here it is: You roll two dice. If the first roll makes a total of 7 or 11, you immediately win, if the first roll is 2 or 3 or 12, you immedately lose, otherwise you continue until you get the same total as at first, in which case you win, or a total of 7, in which case you lose. < 1255932308 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't my homework. I have tried it myself, but I want to see if anyone else has anything to say, too. < 1255932717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Post laters" < 1255932798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm you cannot lose at first throw with a fixed 5 < 1255933010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 and 6 on the second die are special. the rest should obviously be uniform to minimize the chance of repeating them. < 1255933076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "obviously" < 1255933267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 after the first just gives a reroll and so is ignored. thus probability of 6 should be 0 to avoid an immediate win. < 1255933430 0 :pingveno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255933892 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1255933937 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just had a bad idea
< 1255933945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p2 + (1 - p2)*(sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn/(p2+pn)) < 1255934066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um wait < 1255934082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p2 + (1 - p2)*(sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn^2/(p2+pn)) < 1255934092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1255934117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p2 + sum_{n=1,3,4,5} pn^2/(p2+pn) < 1255934520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Hmph" < 1255934759 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1255934785 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255935456 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has finally figured out the grammatical construct to ask a question, then explain why you're asking it
< 1255935602 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1255936288 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255937722 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-sydmfixbpdiiflhf JOIN :#esoteric < 1255938969 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1255939199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1255939200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1255939394 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1255939499 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255940013 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1255941506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255941694 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255941802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, complete spam which is presumably some sort of 419: "I am Mrs. Claire Page sending you a letter from my sickbed in the hospital. Please contact my lawyer (Bar.curtisparkinson@bentegy.com)right away for an urgent matter. God bless." < 1255941826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't see anything wrong with posting that email publicly, spammers deserve to get more spam...) < 1255942361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got this particular rather different spam in three or four email addresses: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/759752-really-weird-spam-wants-wood-stove.html < 1255942382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The forum is completely random, I just googled for the spam text since I deleted my copies already.) < 1255942457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It wasn't completely identical to that, though, because I remember the price of the "portable wood stove" being mentioned.) < 1255943370 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255943675 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255943705 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1255943976 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255944424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably old news, but: apparently when RMS wants to read a web page, he emails a daemon that wgets it and emails him back with the resulting page < 1255945010 0 :jix!n=jix@f054015118.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1255947490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255950075 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255950404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got a question wrong at the automata exam, someone kill me < 1255950415 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking trivial rookie mistake < 1255951073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the occasional mistake isn't /that/ bad... < 1255951329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if i have four more mistakes like it in this midterm, and the other one together, and not get a 5/5 < 1255951342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would probably get a stroke < 1255951366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IF ALL MATHEMATICS IS WRONG, WHAT IF EVERYONE MADE A MISTAKE < 1255951374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calm down, calm down < 1255954577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Disable DST switch for Argentina tomorrow, as the Argentia government decided yesterday. Careful planning is boring." < 1255954588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how quickly the other OSes will get that particular bit of political information...
< 1255955213 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-21-90.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1255955301 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255955316 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255955472 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that change postponed? (iirc from tz list) < 1255955486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure of the details < 1255955499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably if you really cared about argentinian daylight-saving you could read the patch < 1255955556 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1255955563 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As this paper news (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=1187055 ) that Arnaldo just sent to the list, confirms, there will be no DST change in Argentina this weekend (although the Decree wasn't published in time)." < 1255955630 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what a shame. :( < 1255956598 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255957608 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1255957755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats oklopol to death per request -----###
< 1255957825 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255957833 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255957897 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1255957989 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255958163 0 :ehird!n=ehird@212.183.140.55 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255958386 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1255959083 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1255959326 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-5-246.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1255959457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1255960060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1255960066 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255961101 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1255962073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255962216 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d9008a@gateway/web/freenode/x-mgvraaiijdfszvhz JOIN :#esoteric < 1255964987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1255965042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago. barely. < 1255965055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1255965058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely not < 1255965072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just under two hours < 1255965079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these things are *important* < 1255965089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, food < 1255967550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you remember that course length issue you ran into? < 1255967620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect I ran into similar administrative issues, Not about length but about what course I'm registered to currently. And how long I have been studying. Sigh... < 1255967753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this is a university story, i'm going to need you to elaborate < 1255967766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a keen university boy. < 1255968062 0 :eurythmia!n=eurythmi@unaffiliated/eurythmia JOIN :#esoteric < 1255968084 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks FireFly :) < 1255968092 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np :P < 1255968159 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that the set of all regular expressions over a given alphabet is a context-free language, but I'm not 100% sure ... is this the case? < 1255968247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia: of course it is < 1255968281 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, awesome. For my benefit, could you please give me a clue as to why it is not a regular language? < 1255968303 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have like S -> (S) | S + S | S* | terminal (ambiguous) < 1255968315 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err and < 1255968316 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. I get it. < 1255968317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S -> SS < 1255968367 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, thanks. :) < 1255968407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get things like S => SS => SS + S, so this is not actually a grammar you'd use to parse regexps because the tree doesn't represent the correct precedence, but should generate the correct stuff < 1255968480 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yeah, I was just trying to decide whether to draw an FSA or a PDA to deal with the language ... I started using a PDA because I couldn't figure out how to effectively match parentheses with an FSA, but I'd have hated to get so far all for naught ;) < 1255968570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"doesn't represent the correct precedence", well hopefully i don't need to explain what that means, basically you'd usually want to think of the tree representing S => SS => SS + S as meaning S(S + S), basically with that grammar you need a separate step to get the correct precedences < 1255968595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah FSA can't match parens < 1255968615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to prove with the pumping lemma < 1255968616 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about (^n )^n, and pump ('s < 1255968628 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, not a deterministic FSA, anyways ;) < 1255968641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia: deterministic and nondeterministic FSA are exactly as strong < 1255968647 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, was faster than oerjan < 1255968662 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm ... I can't remember the pumping lemma ... guess I'll have to wikipedia that. < 1255968671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia: so they can't be matched by nondeterministic FSA either < 1255968676 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1255968690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one pumping lemma for FSAs and one for CS langs < 1255968785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, to get the precedence right you just have to separate S into a number of different nonterminals < 1255968786 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k ... I'll go look at those. < 1255968801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one for each precedence level) < 1255968806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia: also if you're a human, it will probably be enough of a convincer to know a finite state automaton only remembers a finite amount of data, and matching an arbitrary amount of parens can clearly require any amount of memory, because you need to remember an arbitrary integer. < 1255968857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/CS langs/CF langs/ < 1255968866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there one for CS? < 1255968873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dunno bout CS :<
< 1255968875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck if i know < 1255968888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan also did you hear i failed on my automata exam < 1255968897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda important to know < 1255968902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1255968906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan swats oklopol to death per request -----### < 1255968907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you already swatted me for it < 1255968926 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. Well ... looks like I've got some studying to do for my compiler exam on friday :P < 1255968933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just rechecking, in case you didn't read *why* you wanted me to swat me to death < 1255968978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet for most compiler courses you could just say what i said about finite memory. < 1255968980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if this is a university story, i'm going to need you to elaborate <-- yes it is I guess. But I don't know yet. Things are extremely confused. < 1255968993 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that so < 1255969037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't miss the next episode of this horror drama. Aired tomorrow (hopefully) < 1255969041 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I'll keep that in mind for anything we do regarding parens ;) < 1255969059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mention of CS langs on wp's pumping lemma page < 1255969074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eurythmia: of course it is <-- even with lookahead/behind and backreferences? < 1255969089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: huh < 1255969102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, perl regular expressions has those. So does re in python < 1255969106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're talking the grammar of regexps < 1255969110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1255969145 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yeah ... I'm not actually parsing REs ... just recognising whether or not they belong to a language :) < 1255969154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lookahead/-behind sounds CS < 1255969155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back references sound like they would make things hard to make CF < 1255969158 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backreferences? < 1255969159 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/reconising/recognizing/ < 1255969163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are those < 1255969169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, CF being? < 1255969175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :context-free < 1255969176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :context-free < 1255969180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1255969195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smells redundancy
< 1255969206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(? i wasn't even thinking about that <-- about what? backrefereces? < 1255969437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, hm I fail to parse the perl bit of that (though the regex bit I understand). < 1255969440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty clear to me that l.a./b. can simply be implemented using a FSA if its contents are regular < 1255969441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knows PCRE not perl
< 1255969492 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: RE syntax is context-free if you don't use back references. < 1255969493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hm, they would have to start from opposite sides. but you still could fold it in i thinkø. < 1255969497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-ø < 1255969503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what about lookbehind though? < 1255969503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: l.a./b.? < 1255969508 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: yeah i know < 1255969529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, are you saying it is still CF with lookaheads and lookbehinds? < 1255969534 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does look-behind syntax force certain semantic restrictions? < 1255969535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: goddammit can't i abbreviate the terms we used 30 seconds ago without explaining? :D < 1255969545 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think no. < 1255969548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, what ones are you thinking about? < 1255969549 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not* < 1255969550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :P < 1255969563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: too much talk, my brain gets confused. < 1255969580 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a set of _RE_, not a language (aka a set of strings) represented with given RE. < 1255969584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some implementations restrict look-behind to be fixed length. But not all ones. < 1255969585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i did decrypt it just after asking) < 1255969657 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, then i'm not sure. < 1255969676 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think perl starts to support unlimited look-behind... right? < 1255969688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm? < 1255969704 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not pcre though) < 1255969704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, I work with PCRE. not perl :P < 1255969716 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1255969724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm pretty sure that the regex stuff in .NET has variable length lookbehind at least. < 1255969753 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.NET regex has some strange features, like run-time capture removal etc. < 1255969771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, possibly. I haven't actually used them. Just read about it. < 1255969775 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(practically this is equivalent to recursive RE call though) < 1255969776 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1255969783 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1255969798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, PCRE allows stuff like (foo|baaar) in lookbehind at least < 1255969804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not bar{1,2} it seems < 1255969834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some googling suggest java allows finite repetition (but not infinite like + or *) < 1255969845 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?! < 1255969849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm? < 1255969861 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i missed the context < 1255969869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1255969874 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, {num} in look-behind is permitted? < 1255969885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, or ? or {num,num} < 1255969906 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p5B1378F9.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255969911 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1255969919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://www.regular-expressions.info/lookaround.html but it seems slightly outdated < 1255969929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :section "Important Notes About Lookbehind" < 1255969947 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... everything is fun when the exam is coming. :p (i have that one within next 16 hrs) < 1255969956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .NET regex has some strange features, like run-time capture removal etc. <-- what does that actually mean btw? < 1255970056 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something like the direction that "removes alerady-existing capture if we reached this point". < 1255970059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have number theory on thursday, should probably close irc, clearly it was irc's fault that i made an error in today's one. < 1255970067 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if i recall correctly..) < 1255970067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exam that is < 1255970071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, ah < 1255970072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1255970073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds cool < 1255970078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you stop talking about regexps < 1255970084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, why should we? < 1255970087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is interesting < 1255970097 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get working on your usual OS/compiler garble :P < 1255970100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in perl you can embed perl code inside regexes iirc < 1255970118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :< < 1255970125 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: are you sure that is usual ever? :p < 1255970151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the automata theory lecturer said smth like "if you've used perl, you've probably bumped into CS languages", probably some time since he programmed his last perl :D < 1255970173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: well i dunno what they talk about, but something i can't parse anyway < 1255970181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, hm pcre has this (not sure what it does actually): < 1255970182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?|...) non-capturing group; reset group numbers for < 1255970182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : capturing groups in each alternative < 1255970199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?:...) non-capturing group < 1255970199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?>...) atomic, non-capturing group < 1255970203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just do pure and simple stuff. < 1255970208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not sure what the diff is between those to < 1255970210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two* < 1255970225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh cool: (?#....) comment (not nestable) < 1255970238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOL, A COMMENT! < 1255970250 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not that. pcre one just renumbers the group number, so (?| ... (...) ... \1 ... ) would work correctly no matter where it is < 1255970257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing (?i) makes the regex matching case insensitive until changed back < 1255970268 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/az24scfc.aspx and search for "balancing group" for what i said. < 1255970272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that break CF < 1255970284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir: do you remember the original numbering once out of the nesting? < 1255970313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \g{-n} relative reference by number < 1255970317 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it would be treated as like the whole (?|...) is omitted < 1255970320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like does (?| ... (...) ... \1 ...) start a subnumbering, and once out of that thingie, numbers return to normal < 1255970323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, why not that ^ < 1255970351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1255970351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?R) recurse whole pattern < 1255970351 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just for convenience? as i said i'm not sure about them. :p < 1255970352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?n) call subpattern by absolute number < 1255970354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1255970368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it said it was a non-capturing group so it must be < 1255970381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i didn't realize what non-capturing meant right awya < 1255970382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*away < 1255970387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about calling previous sub-patterns like it was a subroutine? < 1255970389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255970401 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular expression fail! < 1255970402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(condition)yes-pattern) < 1255970402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(condition)yes-pattern|no-pattern) < 1255970403 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm not that great at guessing based on names) < 1255970404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1255970422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(Rn)... specific group recursion condition < 1255970422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(R&name)... specific recursion condition < 1255970422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(DEFINE)... define subpattern for reference < 1255970422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?(assert)... assertion condition < 1255970423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1255970424 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255970431 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255970432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is PCRE TC by any chance? < 1255970442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (*ACCEPT) force successful match < 1255970442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (*FAIL) force backtrack; synonym (*F) < 1255970454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is more back track control too < 1255970460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, that's just ugly :P < 1255970470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but kinda beautiful at the same time. < 1255970471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, agreed. BUT IS IT TC? < 1255970502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is easily settled if you can execute arbitrary code in (condition) < 1255970502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously suspect it may be. This sounds like something that oerjan should prove/disprove < 1255970514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1255970517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not as far as I know. It isn't perl < 1255970518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anywhere < 1255970522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1255970527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't embed perl < 1255970530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in PCRE < 1255970533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1255970536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suggests googling since someone almost certainly has thought of it
< 1255970581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out i don't have to submit the first piece of my bachelor's thesis for a grammar check sort of thing tomorrow < 1255970587 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think it would be, with unlimited look-behind and subpatterns < 1255970597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means i'm probably going to waste the few days i could've worked on it before next courses start :| < 1255970611 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255970616 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have to submit in a week) < 1255970621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, well the recursion stuff too < 1255970629 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah of course. < 1255970634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, and conditions. < 1255970656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?C) callout < 1255970656 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any RE engine that doesn't support conditions while supporting other features? :p < 1255970656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (?Cn) callout with data n < 1255970658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder what they are < 1255970671 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that is a PCRE replacement for perl's (?{}) < 1255970673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly calling a function in the host language? < 1255970678 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. < 1255970691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at man pcrecallout
< 1255970698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah pcre docs are split in several man pages < 1255970705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is THAT complex < 1255970714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only other example I can think of is zsh. < 1255970745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also perl itself :D < 1255970746 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, one can define subpatterns as like (? (?<=context) (?subpattern) (?subpattern) ... (?=context) ) and you're done < 1255970780 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255970790 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I'm glad that I was able to spark such a deep and meaningful conversation on regular expressions :P < 1255970811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, yeah < 1255970837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia, does this affect your original question though? < 1255970858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that about the grammar for regexes themselves? < 1255970893 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, nope ... my question was whether the language was classified as regular or context free ... I've already finished drawing up the PDA for it :P < 1255970918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eurythmia, it certainly isn't context free with back references I guess < 1255970976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure about "option flags" like foo(?i)bar(?-i)quux (would match "foobarquux" and "fooBaRquux" but not "foOBarquux" for example) < 1255971011 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, that's probably a fair assumption ... my PDA only has 3 states and 20 transitions. < 1255971014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't even want to think about how those option flags works when inside a group < 1255971032 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, relatively speaking, it's pretty simple. < 1255971046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly it might be case sensitive or case insensitive depending on if a previous group matched or not < 1255971235 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255971322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it seems that setting case sensitive/insensitive inside a group only affects that group < 1255971323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1255971350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however it affects all branches of said group < 1255971352 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my alphabet is pretty simple too: A={a,b} ;) < 1255971410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1255971416 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1255971448 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255971586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey does anyone know a term in combinatory logic T(X) such that, T(S) --> S, T(K) --> K, T(S) --> Y, T(K) --> Y? < 1255971595 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--> meaning there is some reduction sequence to < 1255971614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: um you are contradicting yourself there < 1255971623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan well I'm thinking church rosser property of lambda calculus makes it impossible < 1255971652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a church rosser for combinatory logic too iirc < 1255971678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, if that's what you mean < 1255971699 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255971723 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ~(S = K) and axiom? < 1255971744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without it you get forall x=y pretty easily < 1255971757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*forall x,y x = y < 1255971763 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without what? < 1255971782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh. if S = K, then everything is equal to everything < 1255971880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if you mean ∀ then write it < 1255971894 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats AnMaster -----###
< 1255971913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you confused me by using weird syntax! < 1255971943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i REFUSE to use your cursed unicode DAMMIT :D < 1255971946 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-vfhkfkumuedfmexp JOIN :#esoteric < 1255971970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i just see a question mark < 1255971976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you mean ∃x(RefusesToUseUnicode(x)) < 1255971986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is "exists" < 1255971991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, font fail < 1255972038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :font, utf-8, everything in a long chain from irssi back to putty < 1255972119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yay for ℵ₀ = |ℕ| < 1255972131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what parts can you read of that < 1255972152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, yay for ?? = |N| < 1255972159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be aleph_0 < 1255972175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the Aleph symbol followed by subscript 0 < 1255972189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see that in the logs < 1255972189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that N should be blackboard bold < 1255972259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about: ±n = -1(∓n) < 1255972261 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :₀_₀ < 1255972270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, what about: ±n = -1(?n) < 1255972280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that was - above plus in the second one < 1255972326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 ≡ 1 (mod 12) < 1255972370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i can see iso-8859-1 and nothing else. < 1255972395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, seriously fix your setup < 1255972414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what does the command locale output on the server you are sshing to? < 1255972425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SHUT. UP. < 1255972434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255972436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1255972439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see this is what i mean < 1255972440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the variable values should all end with .UTF-8 < 1255972454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, export those in your .bashrc, .profile or similar < 1255972455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc stuff works as uninteresting talk < 1255972464 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all sortsa bickering < 1255972466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no clue what shell oerjan uses
< 1255972476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I know you are just joking < 1255972481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and want to get it fixed too < 1255972484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and you will never know because i am tired of this discussion. < 1255972514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait, you aren't ehird. You must always be joking when angry. Fundamental law of the universe < 1255972581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't be angry, but he can be tired of discussions < 1255972584 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even very rare < 1255972599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, sure is rare < 1255972624 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are rarer things < 1255972627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION makes a mental note to always use as much unicode notation when talking to oerjan as possible
< 1255972630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like your mom < 1255972641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that one wasn't even very good < 1255972649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like your... nm < 1255972706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrrrr why didn't my parents force me to learn math when i was young < 1255972709 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoppe time < 1255972715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0 < 1255972715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0 < 1255972715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0 < 1255972718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, like it? < 1255972720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you too < 1255972723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look in logs < 1255972730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks awesome here < 1255972733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ackermann, i notice the shape. < 1255972751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes. But see the unicode case thingy < 1255972752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well recall the shape < 1255972757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see unicode < 1255972765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh? < 1255972765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see random characters < 1255972771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, your client fails too < 1255972775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orly < 1255972779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255972782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orly < 1255972793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, eurythmia, lifthrasiir: surely you can see this? < 1255972805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I expect lifthrasiir to be able to < 1255972813 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've told countless times my nnscript refuses to show unicode correctly. < 1255972814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a 1px or so space between the lines < 1255972821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looks good here < 1255972822 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: curly braces are too large, but others are fine < 1255972825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you use nnscript? < 1255972836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, how large in what way? < 1255972844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: the few others i've tried have been even more annoying < 1255972858 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster fail < 1255972864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, how so? < 1255972867 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need a script? < 1255972872 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: twice large as ordinary letters (and as consequence line height are tripled or even quadrupled) < 1255972883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, eeh. What is that font < 1255972887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: mirc doesn't let me paste multiple lines without excess flooding < 1255972898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, in Dejvavu Sans Mono they look perfect < 1255972910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also nnscript is prettier by default, but i suppose you would consider that even less important < 1255972926 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Tahoma? < 1255972946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, don't have it myself as far as I can see. So no clue < 1255972950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I suppose I would < 1255972951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it some windows only font? < 1255972973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which raises the question: why the hell windows? < 1255972973 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originated from windows, but i think there is some corefont package for them < 1255973021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, actually it might be that your font render thingy is substituting from some other font < 1255973032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Tahoma is missing < 1255973046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is missing those* < 1255973047 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's possible, but then i don't know what the alternative font is < 1255973081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, gucharmap, find symbol, set font to tahoma, right click the symbol, see what font it says in there < 1255973089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was in some "misc technical" block < 1255973117 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using windows for now btw < 1255973119 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a moment < 1255973138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+23A8 is the middle segment < 1255973146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the upper/lower ones are close < 1255973164 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster bad line spacin < 1255973175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, hm? there is no unusual line spacing here < 1255973182 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is clear that tahoma doesn't have such glyph < 1255973201 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i have similar problem, what irc client are you using? < 1255973207 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255973211 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and OS) < 1255973252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, fax: http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw is how it renders here < 1255973270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is xchat on Linux < 1255973285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm using multiple clients on the bouncer) < 1255973306 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, my font was not Tahoma (sorry!) but some korean font, which obviously doesn't have glyphs for U+23A8 etc. < 1255973318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir, mhm < 1255973340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty decent for irc. Not sure how good it is on Korean < 1255973354 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, sorry, delayed response, but yeah, I can see it. < 1255973358 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't have korean glyphs at all < 1255973366 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks very nice ;) < 1255973374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd that ± is sharp and crisp but ∓ is kind of blurry < 1255973378 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and korean glyphs in Code2000 etc. simply suck. < 1255973385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe font issue too? *looks* < 1255973646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ± ∓ thing is not so odd, given that those chars come from completely different blocks. < 1255973669 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmm, i don't know where the U+23A8 glyph originated... it is not in even Arial Unicode MS < 1255973670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :± is in latin-1, while for ∓ you need to go into the Unicode mathematical operator block. < 1255973705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What does the blockness have to do with how they display in a font? < 1255973758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It means that very many fonts might have ± since it's latin 1, while ∓ is rarer; so it's not very strange that they happen to come from different fonts to your screen. < 1255973825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same glyphs on my screen. Hooray, Dejavu Sans Mono. < 1255973826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even if they happen to come from the same font, the glyphs might be made by different people / come from different sources / whatever; in any case, the point was that since the characters are so far away "logically", it's not strange that they display differently.) < 1255973826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Actually dejavu sans mono has it < 1255973828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In this case they're in the same font, though. < 1255973837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet still, one is more blurry < 1255973843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I use dejavu sans mono < 1255973854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that it could just be because they're from different people < 1255973860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1255973879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my screen, one is merely the translation of the other. Granted, it's 9 point font. < 1255973892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, 9 pt too < 1255973892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, mirror. < 1255973904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your hinting sucks? < 1255973906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∓ also has an asymmetric + < 1255973909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, maybe < 1255973919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or it just looks like it because of the blurriness < 1255973933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I stare at it it shifts between symmetric and asymmetric. < 1255973944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, asymetrical left/right or up/down? < 1255973958 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left/right < 1255973969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nop. Though the + is wider than it is tall < 1255973977 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255973981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On occasion it looks like the | is more left than it should be < 1255973990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : As I stare at it it shifts between symmetric and asymmetric. <-- hit that auto button on your TFT front panel RIGHT NOW! < 1255974004 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, and? < 1255974007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255974009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl food < 1255974015 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It popped up "Digital video input no access" < 1255974174 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I might be wrong; maybe it's just some strange rendering issue. I looked at both glyphs (in DejaVu Sans Mono) in fontforge, and they really should be just vertical mirrors of each other; relative distances between the points seem to be the same there. < 1255974179 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://iki.fi/deewiant/tmp/pm.png zoom in to see the difference < 1255974406 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: DejaVu glyphs: http://zem.fi/~fis/pm.png < 1255974425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye, the problem is in rendering < 1255974482 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem in font hinting? < 1255974499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1255974569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could be; Deewiant's pm.png looks a bit like the ∓ would just be not perfectly aligned with the screen pixels, causing those antialiasing artifacts there. < 1255974616 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, they look pretty identical (except the flip) here, as closely as I can make out. < 1255974695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zooming in actually shows some antialiasing in *both*, so my font rendering sucks the most out of these. < 1255974982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you prove that I = SKK doesn't equal S (or K)? < 1255975084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1255975176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKK = \x->SKKx = \x->kx(kx) = \x->x < 1255975192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x-> /= S & \x->x /= K. < 1255975199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1255975235 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255975260 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow: Darl McBride was sacked < 1255975271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1255975272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically speaking, made redundant < 1255975277 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know F = \x -> Fx ? < 1255975289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's pretty rare for a company to eliminate the position of CEO < 1255975289 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an axiom or theorem? < 1255975293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even realise that was possible... < 1255975310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: definition of \, pretty much < 1255975316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition of \. < 1255975335 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum I don't think I undertsand < 1255975381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called "currying". < 1255975436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the definition of \? < 1255975470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\x->f x) y = f y < 1255975487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cancel the ys, and you get (\x->f x) = f < 1255975496 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18:18:34] ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0 < 1255975499 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I agree with that but just because A y = B y doesn't mean that A = B or does it? < 1255975500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and currying basically says that you're allowed to do that < 1255975505 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that thingy was supposed to be an integral sign? < 1255975516 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after checking the first char in uh.. kate) < 1255975516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A y = B y doesn't necessarily imply A = B < 1255975520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does if it's true for all y, though < 1255975520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1255975546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: A y = B y for all y does. < 1255975546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It popped up "Digital video input no access" <-- ah DVI < 1255975546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1255975546 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1255975546 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a '{' < 1255975546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then, odd it changes as you described < 1255975549 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it that called currying? A y = B y -> A = B < 1255975584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, currying says that \x->f x == f. < 1255975584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B < 1255975597 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was eta conversion < 1255975624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wow: Darl McBride was sacked <-- hmmm... SCO? < 1255975630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255975633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the proof of (forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B? < 1255975635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1255975642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: definition of = < 1255975648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not that odd; Deewiant probably still doesn't have digital eyes, old-fashioned person that he is. < 1255975664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the commenters at Groklaw seems to think that his next step will be an attempted hostile takeover of SCO < 1255975668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be hilarious, IMO < 1255975673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have analogue monitor cable *and* eyes < 1255975675 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I know about = is that it's the smallest reflexive, symmetric, transitive relation < 1255975678 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that enough? < 1255975690 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "the smallest" is the important thing here < 1255975692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's not enough < 1255975701 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what more could I say about =? < 1255975708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when are two functions the same? < 1255975717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've defined = in terms of reflexiveness < 1255975723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reflexiveness is defined in terms of = < 1255975724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1255975727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this isn't really getting anywhere < 1255975746 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for nonstandard models of SK calculusu < 1255975772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can add as an axiom, the rule of right cancellation < 1255975819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, why is reflexiveness defined in terms of =? < 1255975840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an operator is reflexive if it means that A o A for all A < 1255975852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, it's reflexive if it's true whenever the left and right are equal < 1255975873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that o as in ∘ ? < 1255975888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, why not use the proper notation? ;P < 1255975908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because I can't easily type ∘ in a hurry? < 1255975929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah I still have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols open after talking to oerjan above :P < 1255976080 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1255976328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what do you mean by rule of right cancellation? that (forall y, A y = B y) -> A = B thing? < 1255976357 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: pikhq used it, I just wanted to make it formal < 1255976383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway as you said that follows from eta reduction in lambda calculus < 1255976388 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've not assumed that my model of SK axioms IS lambda calculus < 1255976389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you have free variables < 1255976408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but lambda calculus _is_ a model of it... < 1255976419 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the only model? < 1255976433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's obviously consistent to add the additional axioms that hold in it... < 1255976463 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not obvious < 1255976486 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I didn't have the axiom S <> K, then the trivial model applies, and that has the thoerem forall x y, x = y < 1255976494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1255976510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that axiom does not hold in lambda calculus... < 1255976515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1255976518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite < 1255976566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus _is_ a model of SK calculus < 1255976604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you have at least one model of SK calculus satisfying all theorems of lambda calculus. thus those theorems are consistent with SK calculus. Q.E.D. < 1255976606 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the set with one element o and application operator \x y -> o, is also a model < 1255976619 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I added the axiom S <> K < 1255976630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh < 1255976665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there are lots of other models coming from those CPOs used in denotational semantics < 1255976677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh? < 1255976781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i vaguely recall something about those being used to prove you could model lambda calculus as something resembling actual set functions < 1255976783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, feather progress? < 1255976791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on hold < 1255976794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to me going temporarily insane < 1255976801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I hope it's temporary < 1255976806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm waiting for my brain to cool again < 1255976847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :World temporarily saved: ais523 no longer thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1255976859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is feather < 1255976861 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1255976865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what from? feather? < 1255976872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255976876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255976879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put it this way: I've been here for several years now < 1255976887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a special brand of insanity to actually send me over the edge < 1255976888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know that... < 1255976893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, agreed. < 1255976898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1255976898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: please don't ask, it takes too long to explain and I don't want my head to explode again < 1255976923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suffice it to say, that it's a) awesome, b) esolang-related, and c) vaporware, possibly forever so < 1255977034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this openoffice i've been hearing so much about for the last day or 10 years or something < 1255977047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have some sorta equation editor in the default installation < 1255977094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, IIRC < 1255977116 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea where the cd is for my office < 1255977129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1255977140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only other things i know that can do math stuff are mathematica and that latex thing < 1255977164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, quick description: a time travelling esolang involving rewriting the interpreter what interpreted you. < 1255977173 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread "that latex lung"; it sounded like some sort of occupational-hazard disease. < 1255977185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1255977201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather has really messed-up causality, which is really frustrating my attempts to write an interp for it < 1255977202 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ooh, I've got bad LaTeX lung from my days as a slave in the math mines of our university." < 1255977209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, LaTeX is awesome though < 1255977215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1255977220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but can i just pick it up on the fly? < 1255977238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm tempted to use something that just lets me press buttons with the correct looking math thingies. < 1255977241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, depends on how strong the back of the fly is I guess. < 1255977247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a common house fly, maybe not < 1255977263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is a pretty common house fly, as you probably know < 1255977271 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, more like a retarded, lazy house fly < 1255977278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, LyX then. Awesome WYSIWYG frontend for LaTeX < 1255977279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1255977281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks AnMaster < 1255977282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WYSIWYM < 1255977286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but latex is something i'd *want to* learn, so probably i actually would learn it. < 1255977287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is "meant" < 1255977292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OO formula-generation thing basically has a WYSIWYG just-press-buttons in one pane < 1255977299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a LaTeX-like version in another < 1255977300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah i guessed it was meant < 1255977302 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rubbish at this :/ how do I find combinator F such that F(K) = S, F(I) = K? < 1255977303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenOffice.org and insert/object/formula at least gave me a formula editor. < 1255977305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or vice versa < 1255977305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they both update whenever you change either < 1255977336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "LaTeX-like"? < 1255977352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's probably a subset of LaTeX < 1255977360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1255977365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe with a few extra commands thrown in < 1255977371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, surprised it doesn't use MathML instead or such < 1255977379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's the format it saves in, IIRC < 1255977382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KSK = S, IIK = I < 1255977383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh, right, it had that fancy thing. It also displays (at least here) inverse question marks in the "rendered output" thing occasionally, when there's an incomplete structure. < 1255977383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to the format you edit in < 1255977387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ok < 1255977389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1255977390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pretty weird < 1255977398 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, too hasty :P < 1255977402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, to me too < 1255977411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1255977427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX usually just renders empty instead iirc < 1255977461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's easier to start with F(K) and F(KI) < 1255977466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the empty wouldn't be clickable < 1255977476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kxy = x, KIxy = y < 1255977482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k and ki are amazingly good logic levels for Unlambda, though < 1255977499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1255977521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fax: it's easier to start with F(K) and F(KI) < 1255977521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but then the empty wouldn't be clickable < 1255977521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I generally use i and ki < 1255977526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I noticed not same person < 1255977531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was REALLY confused < 1255977535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for church numerals < 1255977536 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan well how does that apply? < 1255977541 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the link < 1255977549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oerjan: stop having nicks of same length :P < 1255977581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: F = \b -> b x y gives something that is F(K) = x, F(KI) = y < 1255977589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523*=2 < 1255977596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, should fix it < 1255977609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : does f(x) = ((xi)(s))(((xi)(ki))(k)) work? < 1255977614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure I've got that one right, though... < 1255977634 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That OOo syntax is only very vaguely LaTeX-like; for example, \over{x}{y} is "{x} over {y}", and "\sum_{i=1}^n 42" is in fact "sum from{i=1} to{n} 42". < 1255977635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to compile from the Underlambda in my head < 1255977659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think there were LaTeXy and less LaTeXy synonyms for most operations < 1255977672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably; those were what came out of the buttons. < 1255977680 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 it reduces to SI = K < 1255977693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, f(I) = f(K) reduces to that < 1255977735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I know what I did < 1255977742 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I think I can do ti from there perhaps < 1255977744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I applied rather than composed... < 1255977752 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because SIxy = y(xy) and Kxy = x < 1255977772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if I produce let y = KK and x = S < 1255977844 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I made a mistake :/ < 1255977876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: KKIxy = Kxy = x, IKIxy = KIxy = y < 1255977923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KABCD = ACD, IABCD = ABCD, so ACD = S, ABCD = K; guess A = K => KCD = S => C = S; KBSD = K => BD = K => B = I, D = K, so, apply KISK to your combinator < 1255977932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that work? < 1255978046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming i'm not failing miserably at combinatory logic, that should be a straightforward derivation of a working combinator, assuming you know how to apply stuff to the param < 1255978081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so F = \b -> b K I x y gives you F(K) = x, F(I) = y < 1255978082 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually is that exactly what oerjan is trying to hint at < 1255978106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it < 1255978109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i don't know if yours is the same < 1255978129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is the exact same, just not for general x, y < 1255978140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255978141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you apply KIxy to the combinator, i apply KISK < 1255978178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my point is mostly you can just apply general stuff, and solve, that way. < 1255978185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i went by K and KI as i noted above < 1255978196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didn't read your derivation, maybe i should now < 1255978325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so you find a way to differentiate between K and KI, then find a way to get those outta I and K, which turns out to be trivial < 1255978359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love combinators. < 1255978407 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool, that proof that I <> K doesn't use 'curry' < 1255978408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K and KI are as implied the "obvious" way to implement booleans in lambda calculus/combinators/unlambda < 1255978459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although unlambda uses I and V in places just to be horrible :D) < 1255978467 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so hypothetically.. < 1255978479 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably produce a sequence of combinators, all distinct < 1255978486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i ever really made sense of how C/V/I booleans work < 1255978501 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(N = {0, 1, 2, ...} with a proof x y in N, x <> y) < 1255978502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: church numerals < 1255978529 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this would let me make a bijection between that sequence and the sequence of natural numbers < 1255978546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the wicked part is that you _need_ C in order to do anything useful with V < 1255978552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bijection? try isomorphism! < 1255978559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i know. < 1255978560 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference? < 1255978581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a bijection you just need to find some combinator for each natural number < 1255978590 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for isomorphism you have to have some sorta addition < 1255978591 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| I was going to say that then could I find a term like inf = suc inf such that size inf = 1 + size inf but that's not possible by church rosser < 1255978628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it will just be non-terminating... < 1255978652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you always have fixpoints < 1255978705 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to try and produce a contradiction from the non-terminating term < 1255978751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well size inf = 1 + size inf is pretty much the definition of an infinite cardinality in set theory :) < 1255978771 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1255978773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1255978794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"size" being defined by existence of bijections < 1255978816 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ysucc = succ(Ysucc) < 1255978832 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can biject {zero,succ(zero),...} with {0,1,...} < 1255978851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1255978856 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't let me that there exists a number n = 1 + n < 1255978876 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can't prove that Ysucc is in {zero,succ(zero),...}, can I? < 1255978884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1255978887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1255978916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well assuming you define succ so it doesn't cycle < 1255978935 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero <> succ(zero) etc < 1255978971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are basically constructing a new model of the peano axioms < 1255978983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for which succ n = n has no solution < 1255979086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway standard church numerals give you such a sequence < 1255979177 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have to internalize the notioin of 'is inductive' < 1255979204 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say that SK is not inductive so it can't exist < 1255979214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1255979251 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existence of Ysucc = succ(Ysucc) means that SK isn't inductive because there is a term produced only by iteration of succ to zero but it is not in N < 1255979252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SK calculus is a perfectly consistent algebraic system < 1255979288 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does that mean? < 1255979306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it has a model? < 1255979308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it certainly exists in set theory < 1255979317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1255979361 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is no set in set theory X = X -> X < 1255979366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only X ~ X -> X < 1255979370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why should that kind of inductive apply to SK - it contains _much more_ than just your succ sequence < 1255979385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the equality of SK terms is more like a quotient of set equality than actual set equality < 1255979399 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a b in SK, a == b then the set a might not equal the set b < 1255979401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it cannot be modeled with set functions < 1255979436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmm < 1255979440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there is a bijection between naturals and all SK expressions though, so if you define succ as enumerating them, doesn't it contain exactly the succ sequence? < 1255979469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be modelled by set functions because X <> X -> X < 1255979469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the proof? < 1255979470 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to show that X = X -> X is the only possible model of SK < 1255979470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there _is_ however a model using continuous set functions such that the space of functions is topologically equivalent to the space of arguments < 1255979490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see that CPO denotational semantics stuff < 1255979509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah topologically equivalent whoosh < 1255979514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1255979586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it would be hard, probably impossible, to make succ be given by an SK expression itself for that complete enumeration < 1255979612 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i was just wondering that, didn't realize succ was an sk expression < 1255979613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that's obvious from the existence of fixpoints < 1255979633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all combinators have fixpoints? < 1255979636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255979644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y f = f(Y f) < 1255979644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit that's sexy < 1255979656 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol you can prove it yourself < 1255979667 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only uses composition and Ux = xx < 1255979700 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need S or K or anything < 1255979740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could someone link me to a download button that gives me a fucking english openoffice < 1255979764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i expect the impossibility of modeling lambda calculus using X = X -> X as sets was a major motivation for the invention of that CPO theory. < 1255979781 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1255979814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://openoffice.bouncer.osuosl.org/?product=OpenOffice.org&os=winwjre&lang=en-US&version=3.1.1 (OpenOffice.org US English version, and a bundled JVM) < 1255979820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the Windows version < 1255979838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange... when I X-forward a gtk application over ssh it uses the local theme to the computer with the screen < 1255979839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1255979847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, there doesn't seem to be a UK English version on that list < 1255979848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually found it, "English version" button linked to the page with the link to downloading the finnish version < 1255979858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the gtk theme on the computer the application is running on < 1255979861 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that page also had a small link with "more languages and versions" < 1255979869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone has any clue why? < 1255979886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at fizzie and ais523 as most likely to know
< 1255979894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the fuck can't people make good webpages, you know, ones that have a fucking button that lets you download the one size fits all english basic product. < 1255979905 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else, just a big button < 1255979907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know, although it doesn't strike me as ridiculously strange < 1255979916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1255979916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why it doesn't strike me as strange, though < 1255979926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange that it doesn't strike me as strange... < 1255979951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, I can't see what the other computer can know about the GTK+ theme on here < 1255979961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it doesn't have to < 1255979968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries a QT application too
< 1255979969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might just be sending generic "render GTK widget" commands < 1255980004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't think that X has such a thing < 1255980008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's an X resource for it - i remember setting those, way back when... < 1255980010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't done on that level I mean < 1255980027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X doesn't have" is a statement whose falseness is of a par with "Slash'EM doesn't have" < 1255980032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one list X resources... < 1255980036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well ok < 1255980103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I know something Slash'EM lacks though < 1255980108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want to know what? < 1255980119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balancedness < 1255980127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has forgotten
< 1255980129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1255980160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, It is WAY easier to win slashem than nethack if you play as val < 1255980163 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1255980180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, winning as pretty much anything else is near impossible < 1255980181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1255980191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :val is rather nerfed early-game in slashem < 1255980198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought monk was the most broken slashem class < 1255980201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "nerfed"? < 1255980209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weakened by making arbitrary changes < 1255980215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an attempt to balance < 1255980218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and monk isn't too bad in slashem either < 1255980228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broken = too powerful for balance < 1255980237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but I meant later on. As in "after the quest" < 1255980259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :post-quest, you can generally win with anything in NetHack, and I doubt Slash'EM is that different from what I've seen of it < 1255980260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, val is pretty easy in nethack too < 1255980274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :val's easy in NetHack because it has the best early-game, and the late-game's irrelevant < 1255980287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wiz late-game blows everyone else out of the water, tou late-game is pretty good too...) < 1255980296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1255980319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b < 1255980331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, why was there a b in the buffer heh < 1255980419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you screwed up C-x b to switch? < 1255980438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm actually using xchat atm < 1255980445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over X forwarding < 1255980448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255980457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you tried to type emacs commands into a non-emacs program, then < 1255980461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is the GTK app I mentioned above < 1255980485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I usually mix up nano and emacs. No problems with other apps < 1255980519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: Ctrl-O to save in emacs and C-x C-s to save in nano < 1255980524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instead of the reverse) < 1255980608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know any GTK details; but I don't think it's done via X resources. "xrdb -query" lists at least what you set. Oh, and if you change your .gtkrc, you can gdk_event_send_clientmessage_toall an _GTK_READ_RCFILES event, which to me sort of implies that all the GTK clients themselves are responsible for reading the settings. (This doesn't explain why it would use the GTK theme on the local X server, though. But maybe it can query that somehow. Who knows.) < 1255980641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, KDE/QT apps seems to not do this < 1255980700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh why is there stuff like: < 1255980706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netscape*selectForeground: #ffffff < 1255980706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netscape*thermo.slider.background: #dcdcdc < 1255980706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netscape*thermo.slider.foreground: #0a5f89 < 1255980706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netscape*topShadowColor: #ffffff < 1255980711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that command's output < 1255980737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no I didn't set it, no I don't use netscape) < 1255980758 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_really_ old global settings? < 1255980769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/settings/defaults/ < 1255980791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, possibly < 1255980801 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the axiom of lambda calculus that prohibits the trivial model? < 1255980814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but this system I'm checking on is from, like, 2006. And X was updated last week on it < 1255980828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i don't think lambda calculus is usually thought of that way < 1255980839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the expressions are symbolic < 1255980858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you define "equality" by reductions < 1255980873 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so you say: these are equal, and nothing else is < 1255980879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1255980885 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1255980936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could probably define other models - but then you'd probably include the trivial one < 1255980954 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X resources might come from any of the myriad moving parts involved in the X startup. At least my system has a /etc/X11/Xsession.d/30x11-common_xresources to pull in all files defined in $SYSRESOURCES; and that comes from /etc/X11/Xsession; and refers to all files in /etc/X11/Xresources/; if your system uses the same layout, maybe something left some old files there. < 1255980985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bit curious "*customization: -color" resource from there. < 1255981023 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-99-137.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1255981033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well i meant it could be old cruft that nobody has bothered to delete < 1255981046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes me too < 1255981048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err XD < 1255981070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, only on my ubuntu system too < 1255981079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on my gentoo desktop < 1255981085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has netscape stuff though < 1255981096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, everyone seems to do X startup a bit differently. < 1255981104 0 :eurythmia!n=eurythmi@unaffiliated/eurythmia JOIN :#esoteric < 1255981107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also the system *never* had netscape installed < 1255981115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to being 64-bit from the beginning < 1255981128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was Debian, but Ubuntu and Debian are best pals and all. < 1255981133 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math is hard :P < 1255981138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant the colour stuff is only on my ubuntu laptop < 1255981141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can complete my proof < 1255981143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on my gentoo desktop < 1255981158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what proof? < 1255981189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to show that the theory of SK has no model in a strongly normalizing lambda calculus < 1255981205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1255981266 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it's true that's good enough yeah? < 1255981278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you have macs on your network right? And ubuntu systems? < 1255981283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1255981310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Er, well, not simultaneously, no; the iBook dualboots to OS X and Ubuntu, but that's my only Ubuntu system. < 1255981316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1255981326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that succ fixpoint does sound like a good idea for that < 1255981338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was about to ask you to install mdns-scan on a ubuntu system and run it and see how many lines was returned < 1255981349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is fairly interesting how 90% of it is macs on all networks I tried it on < 1255981401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, of course, any linux computer would do I guess < 1255981413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't fungot run on that OS X system? < 1255981414 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, and it's about what sounds good when it's spoken. or read or whatever. :) < 1255981423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like OS X... < 1255981428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all about the user experience < 1255981439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very relevant fungot's comment was < 1255981440 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they don't really think so? :) that just makes it nicer to still name the new function. < 1255981455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well less so now < 1255981567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungot typically runs on my in-DMZ virtual-server laptop; that's a Debian system. And I'm pretty sure there's nowadays no other mdns-based services floating around, but I used to have a media server thing setup with Avahi's mdns-repeater across the network segments here. < 1255981613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "no other" than what? < 1255981626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No other than what the iBook blubbers about when it's on. < 1255981634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1255981640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ MacBook Nr093380 [00:1b:63:37:41:f5]._workstation._tcp.local < 1255981640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ MacBook Nr093380._sftp-ssh._tcp.local < 1255981640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ MacBook Nr093380._ssh._tcp.local < 1255981643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1255981660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for nmap there. Can just ask it nicely < 1255981662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255981718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl in a bit < 1255982007 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255982925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1255982939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm did I actually say "bbl in a bit" XD < 1255983008 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab back later < 1255983253 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-18-18.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1255983545 0 :eurythmia!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1255983621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there? Prod < 1255983637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it you who was behind that extra-www site? < 1255983646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or do I completely misremember?) < 1255984641 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255985139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I have a math question < 1255985174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is 3↑↑↑↑3 too large to write out in this universe? (that is g₁ btw) < 1255985188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of course g₆₄ is < 1255985196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was wondering about g₁ < 1255985219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot hear you because of the unicode LALALALA
< 1255985241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that was 3^^^^3 and g_1 and g_64 < 1255985243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better? < 1255985250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1255985251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except ^ is not Knuth's up-arrow < 1255985263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't? < 1255985268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no ↑ is < 1255985275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot the base of the arrow < 1255985276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1255985278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how unfortunate < 1255985288 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster : It's obviously not too large to write, since you just did it < 1255985298 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR DO YOU MEAN USING SCIENTIFIC NOTATION < 1255985366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth's_up-arrow_notation#Tables_of_values < 1255985371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see second table < 1255985406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_, I meant expanded using scientific notation yeah < 1255985411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually full one < 1255985416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as just integers < 1255985425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full value < 1255985431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/integers/digits/ < 1255985439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that would be far too large < 1255985454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even written in the table... < 1255985456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh that table. Fail to read it < 1255985460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is what in it < 1255985468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m\n < 1255985469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1255985481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference between the set m and the set n? < 1255985486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blink* < 1255985513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the caption above < 1255985526 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d9008a@gateway/web/freenode/x-vpyefpnidouxaarn JOIN :#esoteric < 1255985528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the \ is to separate the axes < 1255985532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255985540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it uses 2 not 3 < 1255985552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in front I mean < 1255985561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1255985563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong table < 1255985657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is it correct to say that each up arrow adds another "level of operator"ish. Like addition is related to multiplication? < 1255985680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same is the relationship change between ^^ and ^^^ . Between n ^ and n+1 ^ < 1255985686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1255985708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "more or less"? < 1255985756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, exactly that < 1255985853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255985862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why "more or less" first time then :P < 1255985878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just time to think about it without admitting you had to?) < 1255985929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats AnMaster for knowing too much -----###
< 1255985933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you know *way* more math than I do < 1255985956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1255985973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that is why I keep asking you :P < 1255986205 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1255986212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dream is to surpass oerjan in 3 years. < 1255986227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much my only goal in life < 1255986242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive designed a modification of the lambda calculus that has absolutely no nesting, but instead has explicit scopal relationships.. :T < 1255986375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your crazy get rich quick schemes < 1255986408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255986462 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well are you going to explain it? < 1255986474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO DO SO < 1255986549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, essentially what you do is you mark out all of the applications and variable bindings explicitly < 1255986552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in a simple case < 1255986562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have the expression < 1255986594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would convert to the set { f[i][], x[][i] } < 1255986599 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application of f with argument x? < 1255986603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1255986621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first slot there indicates the functions unique identifier index < 1255986640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the second slow indicates what function that value is taken as argument to < 1255986668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (g x) becomes { f[i][], g[j][i], x[][j] } < 1255986722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (f g) x? < 1255986737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the name of the result of (f g) < 1255986746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ f[i][], g[][i], x[][i] } < 1255986760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a set it's ordered? < 1255986767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. sure. :p < 1255986773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright. < 1255986788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all things with the same lower index are mutually totally ordered < 1255986792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance < 1255986812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 1 2 => { f[i][], 1[][i], 2[][i] } < 1255986825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 2 1 => { f[i][], 2[][i], 1[][i] } < 1255986851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things with different lower indexes are not ordered relative to one another < 1255986859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((s (s k)) k) i) => { s[1][] s[2][1] k[][2] k[][1] i[][1] } < 1255986884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f 1 2 also => { 1[][i], f[i][], 2[][i] }, { 1[][i], 2[][i], f[i][] } < 1255986896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i get it < 1255986912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for lambda abstractions < 1255986915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that's a very weird kind of set. < 1255986917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255986921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it is sort of < 1255986925 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a partially ordered set < 1255986930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you want to think of it as a kind of set) < 1255986937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cool part is the reduction rules < 1255986947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let me tell you about lambda abstractions first < 1255986973 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.x => { [i][]\x, [][i]x } < 1255987008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.(f x) => { [i][]\x, [][i]f[j][], [][i]x[][j] } < 1255987054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an application of the first looks like so: < 1255987102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh, btw, i was omitting the [][] after things since [][] is recoverable) < 1255987130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it simply ((\x.x) f) => { f[][i] [i][]\x, [][i]x } < 1255987133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.x 5 => { [i][]\x[j][], [][i]x[][], [][]5[][j] } < 1255987139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*f[][i], < 1255987154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1255987156 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1255987174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the left brackets tell you the bindings, the right brackets tell you the applications < 1255987175 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255987228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to reduce this, what you do is you take everything in the set that is pre-subscripted [i] (e.g. stuff like [_][i]_[_][_]) < 1255987264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you replace it with [_][]_[_][_] if its _not_ the variable bound by the lambda < 1255987347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it IS the variable bound by the lambda, you remove it, and substitute into the set a copy of the value application-bound by the lambda < 1255987368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where that copy has all the application bindings of the variable its replacing < 1255987371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1255987407 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ [i][]\x[j][], [][i]x[][], [][]5[][j] } becomes { [][]5[][] } < 1255987464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you drop lambda, drop the [][i]x[][], copy [][]5[][j] over, retaining the lambda bindings [][] from its left, and replacing the application bindings [][j] with the application bindings of [][i]x[][], namely, [][] < 1255987467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, [][]5[][] < 1255987480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a more complicated version might be this: < 1255987544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.(sqrt x) 25 => { [i][]\x[j][], [][i]sqrt[k][], [][i]x[][k], [][]25[][j] } < 1255987561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here we drop the \x part, and the x part < 1255987603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also replace [][i] on the things that have it with [][] < 1255987604 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1255987611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1255987616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks this printout got messed up (translated from Swedish): "Travel time: 41.00 SEK Date: 2 Changes: 675.00 Number of zones: 2009-10-20 Cost: 00:52"
< 1255987633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy 25 over, keeping its lambda bindings ([][]) on its left, and replacing it's application bindings ([][j]) with the application bindings of the x ([][k]) < 1255987635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resuling in < 1255987639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from router planner for local commuter bus company < 1255987650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ [][]sqrt[k][], [][]25[][k] } < 1255987663 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: good day axe handle < 1255987666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the the translation of sqrt 25 < 1255987677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, XD < 1255987695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the worst part is that there is 1 change and somewhere between 6 and 10 zones < 1255987711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the values 2 and 675.00 doesn't fit in *anywhere* < 1255987777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only things that must be lambda bound are the highest thing in the body of the lambda (so if the lambda were \x.\y.x+y, + would only be lambda bound by \y, and \y would be bound by \x) < 1255987782 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the travel planner is taking you on a 668 zone round-trip < 1255987787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as the variables bound by the lambda < 1255987795 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is make sense, oklopol? < 1255987930 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you have a link or something? this calls for public ridicule < 1255987955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'll read < 1255987957 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was away < 1255987964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255987971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, nah it seems kind of generated. Because it keeps changing when I reload the page < 1255987983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it is mixed up so that the zone count is 41:00 < 1255987990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, oklopol, you might even say that you can, in principle, not lambda-bind other lambdas, if you lambda-bind everything multiple times < 1255988004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh olsner Länstrafiken Örebo Län anyway < 1255988010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :,* < 1255988058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, not sure if it matters but I'm planning a route that is first a landsvägsbuss then a city bus < 1255988086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't want to pinpoint where I live or where I'm going on irc) < 1255988097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you end up with multiple bindings anyway in cases like \P.\x.Px and \x.\P.Px < 1255988112 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because P is both bound by one lambda, and the value of another < 1255988113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1255988181 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but, then we can't use the knowledge to implicate you in a fake terrorist attack or something < 1255988266 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird, I can't reproduce your bug < 1255988266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, that hadn't even come to my mind... I was more thinking about weird IRC people showing up around here (axe optional) < 1255988287 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it makes sense, although i'm not sure i could translate a complicated expression into it without further pondering. < 1255988295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok. < 1255988296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it seems fairly reproducible here. Though exactly how it is messed up varies < 1255988311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do multiple bindings look like? < 1255988314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1255988319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats cool i think is that doing it this way, oklopol, might make points-free trivial < 1255988323 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howdja mean multiple bindings < 1255988326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what do multiple bindings look like? < 1255988326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : strange < 1255988327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1255988333 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255988343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you end up with multiple bindings anyway in cases like \P.\x.Px and \x.\P.Px < 1255988348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1255988350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like < 1255988350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translate < 1255988353 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :searching for something like storgatan fjugesta to studentgatan universitetet just gives me a normal travel plan with everything in the right column < 1255988356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, maybe it only messes up for those living here? < 1255988372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what tab? it wasn't the first one < 1255988384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was "reseväg" < 1255988387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and only in print view < 1255988398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\P.\x.Px becomes { [i][]\P[][], [j][i]\x[][], [][i,j]P[k][], [][j]x[][k] } < 1255988407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to mention that < 1255988410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so just comma, makes sense < 1255988416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P gets two lambda bindings < 1255988421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for \P where its a variable < 1255988430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one for \x where it's the return value < 1255988430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION scrutinizes
< 1255988435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, does everything look correct? < 1255988441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be useful to distinguish those two < 1255988443 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure < 1255988466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also why studentgatan? *suspicious look* < 1255988486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if olsner lives in Örebro or around
< 1255988520 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I searched for storgatan and götgatan and hoped there would be some streets with similar names somewhere in or near or far outside örebro < 1255988520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because how else could you have guessed that there is studentgatan universitetet < 1255988523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255988533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :storgatan yes < 1255988545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :götgatan sounds like Göteborg or Stockholm to me < 1255988560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1255988569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: alright makes sense, although i don't see why you couldn't just link P to x, and inherit bindings through the chain... or does that make reductions uglier? < 1255988577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, anyway you managed to pick my destination ± a few hundred meters :P < 1255988592 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I picked something in the list of matches that sounded like it was well outside örebro (fjugesta) and something else that was in örebro but would require a bus trip inside örebro (to get a city bus in the itinerary) < 1255988598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you might be able to. im just toying around with this right now. < 1255988625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I would assume some high numbered bus (>100) to Resecentrum then bus 12 from there? < 1255988635 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the print view picks a previously displayed price as the number of zones < 1255988654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, which price? < 1255988662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I got more errors than that < 1255988668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I mentioned above < 1255988695 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to have picked the price of an ungdom pendlarkort as the number of zones for me < 1255988699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1255988714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that could be quite accurate for the 675.00 figure I got < 1255988721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yeah. awesome. points free is trivial. :) < 1255988726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't have that card myself) < 1255988735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: cool < 1255988764 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the travel time or date or changes or price columns mixed up though, just random data in the number of zones < 1255988780 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternativ 1 Restid: 00:59 Giltig: 2009-10-19 Byten: 1 Antal zoner: 785,00 Pris: 20,00 SEK < 1255988783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah. Lucky you < 1255988801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, if it matters I only had alternativ 2 checked on the first page < 1255988804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so heres how it works, oklodilly < 1255988804 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255988807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have something like this: < 1255988827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also I consistently get one change too much < 1255988828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\f.\x.fx) sqrt 2 < 1255988832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is 2, instead of 1 < 1255988864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also what the hell... 20 SEK... 785.00 and 59 minutes of travel Huh. < 1255988887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live closer and it costs more, almost as long travel time, but the card is cheaper < 1255988893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very strange logic < 1255988924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this becomes { [i][]\f[j][], [k][]\x[l][], [][]sqrt[][j], [][]2[][l] } < 1255988924 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're adult? < 1255988936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, 19. < 1255988939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a student < 1255988950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well it would cost the same without a special card I think? < 1255988952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1255988960 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(im sure theres a way to calculate this automatically but for now you need to explicity say which value will go into which lambda) < 1255989003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, still. It wouldn't know how old I am afaik. < 1255989007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never told the site. < 1255989014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I *do* have a card. A different one though < 1255989023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rabattkort vuxen) < 1255989031 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was thinking that you might have picked a random different card in the drop-down than me < 1255989039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I didn't pick any < 1255989048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that menu at all < 1255989056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1255989061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry oklopol, that was wrong < 1255989102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it says "vuxen kontant" here < 1255989105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1255989145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f.\x.fx sqrt 2 becomes [i][]\P[v][] [j][]\x[w][] [][i,j]P[k][] [][j]x[][k] [][]sqrt[][v] [][]2[][w] < 1255989202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reduces to points free [i][]\P[v][] [][i]P[w][] [][]sqrt[][v] [][]2[][w] < 1255989202 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, looks like there's quite some variation depending on exactly how far you go... that's why my price never matched yours < 1255989218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you didnt have the actual argument value 2, you'd get the same things, minus the 2 values < 1255989240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the way the de-pointing works < 1255989258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, interestingly is cost half as much to take the "local city bus in small town -> station -> landsvägsbuss -> other landsvägsbuss -> city bus in Örebro" as just "landsvägsbuss -> city bus in Örebro" < 1255989265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't quite make sense to me < 1255989286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell I didn't even know there were city buses in this small town < 1255989303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is cool < 1255989368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depointing is essentially just application, too. because the lambdas are such that order is irrelevant, it's _essentially_ as if it were a lambda expression with multiple, unordered arguments < 1255989374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\{x,y,z}.E < 1255989446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, i think what i've done is almost get to a tarskian style system without lambdas... hm < 1255989539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ill just make it tarskian < 1255989655 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1255989748 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1255989822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. tarskian logic makes points free so easy < 1255989841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its not _really_ points free, but < 1255989859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, neither is what i just did < 1255990011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know trsk < 1255990120 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its pretty cool stuff < 1255990123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1255990130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have three sets of primitives < 1255990155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive values, lets denote those as v, v', v'', ... < 1255990161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive variables < 1255990168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :denote them as x, x', x'', ... < 1255990190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive values are finite in number, variables are infinite < 1255990193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also have open sentence classes < 1255990196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1255990241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fx, Gxx', ... denote multiple open sentences, with arbitrary variables in each spot < 1255990258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Fx as a family denotes the sentences {Fx, Fx', Fx'', ... } < 1255990301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fxx' as a family denotes { Gxx, Gxx', Gxx'', ... Gx'x, Gx'x', Gx'x'', ... Gx''x, Gx''x', Gx''x'', ...} < 1255990305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok? < 1255990365 0 :Raevel!n=Raevel@h85-8-1-26.static.se.alltele.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255990379 0 :Raevel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1255990558 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1255990794 0 :ehird!n=ehird@212.183.134.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255990875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's x', x'' etc? < 1255990879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1255990881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm that < 1255990883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go on < 1255990887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:27:04 this is probably old news, but: apparently when RMS wants to read a web page, he emails a daemon that wgets it and emails him back with the resulting page < 1255990888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously? < 1255990901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a link to it open a while ago < 1255990903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've been mocking that for at least a year. Maybe a year and a half. < 1255990907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously as in is he seriously spreading such old news or seriously... yeah. < 1255990911 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guessed it was old news < 1255990919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You, on the other hand, wait a year and then start up w3m, I guess. :D) < 1255990921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, you should tell me the things you've known for ages < 1255990925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't end up telling you < 1255990927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: uh this is ehird we're talking about < 1255990934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But IRC isn't high-bandwidth enough! < 1255990939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : CONDESCENDING ANTI-EHIRD STATEMENT < 1255990943 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255990952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is knowing everything not a good thing < 1255990976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was going to be something like "HE ALWAYS GOES FOR THE MORE INSULTING OPTION" < 1255990979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255990995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well partly that too :P < 1255991006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's getting a bit old < 1255991084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:16:28 * ais523 wonders how quickly the other OSes will get that particular bit of political information... < 1255991085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me check Software Update! < 1255991122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Theory: Apple names a good portion of its applications without metaphor so as to monopolise their respective markets on OS X.) < 1255991136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs a mail client if you can just open Mail? < 1255991146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a clever theory < 1255991155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allegedly, Microsoft try to do the same thing but with icons < 1255991159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1255991164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that e is so... unmetaphoric. < 1255991167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theory being that half their users can't use Firefox < 1255991176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they wouldn't be able to open it, because the icon is wrong < 1255991184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but IE's icon is not literal or anything. < 1255991190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a well-known symbol. < 1255991193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255991199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they try to ingrain it in conciousness < 1255991204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was all over the place in Win98, for instance < 1255991246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to look to remember what it's like < 1255991254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1255991273 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255991274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contrast: "Automator", "Calculator", "Chess", "Dictionary", "DVD Player", "Image Capture", "Preview" (admittedly it should probably be called "View" to fit into this perfectly, but eh), "System Preferences" (Okay, okay, it's a system tool, this is fine), "Time Machine" (I'm joking, I'm joking, OS X does not, in fact, contain a time machine) < 1255991277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again i'm oklopol < 1255991289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So more "monopolising the obvious namespace" as opposed to "ubiquitising an abstract". < 1255991294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255991296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FUN TECHNOBABBLE! ^____^) < 1255991310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, no timezone update. < 1255991314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu's been doing that too to some extent, but only on the menus < 1255991318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1255991320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on the application names themselves < 1255991321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor Argentinean OS X users! < 1255991324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, that's a GNOME policy < 1255991327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255991329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well once you have these primitive objects < 1255991335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define certain combinatorics < 1255991338 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1255991345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, my conspiracy theory is very silly; more obvious names are better. < 1255991349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I've seen blog posts about Ubuntu themselves being involved with it too < 1255991353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if S and S' are sentences (open or closed) so is S & S' < 1255991364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: why can't it be a me-style conspiracy < 1255991371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you go around doing actual useful and beneficial things < 1255991372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if your sentences are Fx and Gxx', then Fx & Gxx' is also a sentence < 1255991375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just happen to aid a conspiracy too? < 1255991384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because that's additional work? < 1255991410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[FatELF - the Linux equivalent of what Mac OS X calls "Universal Binaries."]] < 1255991414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a terrible idea! < 1255991424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be able to do them, IMO < 1255991427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if S is a sentence with an open variable x any number of times, then you can replace all occurances of that variable with a primitive value and get another sentence < 1255991428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, nobody should actually use them < 1255991429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bigger executable files! Dumber package management! RAAAAAAAAAAR!" < 1255991434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Benefits:" *huge list* < 1255991439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This guy wants people to actually use it ;__; < 1255991447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if your sentence is Fx & Gxx', you can replace x with v to get Fv & Gvx' < 1255991462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On OS X, it makes sense; people are downloading applications without a package manager. < 1255991473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and notice this conveniently abstracts away from lambda binding orderings < 1255991474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although not so any more! Snow Leopard dropped support for PowerPC.) < 1255991488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So... everyone who bought a Mac before 2005-2006... fuck you!) < 1255991492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gxx' = both \x.\x'.Gxx' and \x'.\x.Gxx' < 1255991503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can substitute for either variable in either order < 1255991510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1255991544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the & combinator also abstracts over forking over primitive conjunction < 1255991565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in tarski's logic, tho, you cant get things like G(Fx)x' < 1255991575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where whole sentences substitute for variables < 1255991581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, i would extent that and say they can < 1255991611 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you can define a extend the combinator to a more general notion < 1255991645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if S and S' are sentences, and x is a variable in S that's not in S', you can substitute S' for x in S to derive a new sentence < 1255991676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Gxx', Fx'' => G(Fx'')x' < 1255991694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not Gxx', Fx => G(Fx)x' < 1255991711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but definitely Gxx', Fx => Gx(Fx) < 1255991735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Much easier to distribute, users don't have to care about what their machine precisely is, they get a single download and that single download Just Works." < 1255991748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, FatELF is targeted at people who can't condition on a uname call in a shell script < 1255991751 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this essentially is a general combinator that handles all sorts of things simultaneously < 1255991752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all makes sense now < 1255991755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255991755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forking is trivial < 1255991805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A fat Elf is called a Gnome, and that name is already taken." < 1255991808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let x+x' be a primitive sentence, and let Fx'' and Gx'' be primitive sentences, you can substitute Fx'' for x and Gx'' for x' in x+x'' to derive Fx''+Gx'' < 1255991824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: gnomes are much shorter than elves, though... < 1255991828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you've just build yourself a fork over + F and G < 1255991842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: could you take this to /msg oklopol? < 1255991848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no. < 1255991856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mental filter algorithms overfloweth with eths < 1255991857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1255991877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s'at make sense oklopol? < 1255991878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: start singing about bees to augur, please < 1255991911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: somewhat. < 1255991916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less than you'd hope < 1255991920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1255991936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its even better tho because you can abstract away from variable names < 1255991939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just use _'s < 1255991943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1255991957 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say i'm feeling it < 1255991977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like < 1255991985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say F(_) and G(_) are primitive sentences < 1255991995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F(_) & G(_) is a derived sentence < 1255992010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with _two_ distinct variables) < 1255992018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Bees! < 1255992020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone likes bees! < 1255992024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bees grow on trees! < 1255992031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bees're the bees kneeeeeeeeeeees! < 1255992033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bees! < 1255992034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could also sort of ... connect the _'s with lines under then to denote that they're the "same" < 1255992036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone loves bees! < 1255992042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bees are ... great? < 1255992045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees! < 1255992053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone loves trees! Trees grow on beeeees! < 1255992056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees! < 1255992086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you did that, the sentence would have only one variable < 1255992086 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i see what you mean < 1255992086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur! TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! < 1255992086 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaanyway what are sentences? :P < 1255992111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had values and variables, are sentences another axiomatic sorta set of things we have < 1255992116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just strings like F(_) or G(_,_) or F(1) or G(4,_) etc < 1255992118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ooh, it's pretty fun to see what the T-Mobile/Danger/Microsoft conspiracy theorists are saying now < 1255992122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1255992126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You know what's more fun?!?!?! < 1255992128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! < 1255992137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what is it?) < 1255992141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it involves beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees < 1255992147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we're just saying sentences are things like F(_), G(_,_), etc. and all the combinations and bindings thereover < 1255992156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently a) the problem was that they deleted the backups to make room for another set, then did the update halfway through the backup process, and b) the data wasn't actually recovered, Microsoft are just lying to get everyone to forget the story < 1255992163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a conspiracy theorist value of "apparently" < 1255992172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: can you have F(G(5))? < 1255992172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees kneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees! < 1255992181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheeeeeeeeeeesh, ehird... < 1255992186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm sure all those dataless sidekick owners will just move on < 1255992190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sense oklopol? < 1255992191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what an unoklopolic sentence! < 1255992195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you need BEES < 1255992203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees < 1255992206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: luckily, it's a rather easily disprovable conspiracy theory < 1255992209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1255992213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see if the disproof happens, it shouldn't take too long < 1255992218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: EVERY SIDEKICK OWNER IS IN ON IT < 1255992224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pronounced as the pattern requires ofc.) < 1255992226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, burden of proof btw < 1255992227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sentence can be turned into a fork by unifying two variables with a joining line < 1255992236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but, but this is conspiracy theories! < 1255992237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we shouldn't wait for disproof we should wait for proof from the conspiracy theorists < 1255992255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes points free trivial because you just link things up < 1255992257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You're right. I hear that http://glennbeckrapedandmurderedayounggirlin1990.com/ < 1255992273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not clicking that link, it would drive the filters here crazy < 1255992276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that even a real website? < 1255992277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He hasn't denied it. And Microsoft haven't denied this either. < 1255992279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... < 1255992280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1255992283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1255992284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna make \x.f(x,g(x)) points free? well, f(_,g(_)) with both vars linked, and thats it. < 1255992299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: With a bunch of plastered "parody" markers on it and enough media coverage to make that obvious. < 1255992305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so fork just means you have a var in many places and thus rewrite them at the same time when that var is binded? < 1255992313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I see no parody markers ... on Microsoft's website! < 1255992319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That makes sense shut up. < 1255992321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/)/ < 1255992333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be funnier if Microsoft did mark their website as a parody < 1255992333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for tarskian stuff, yeah < 1255992357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, maybe Glenn Beck deleted all the data. < 1255992359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a possibility. < 1255992371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he know of the site? and does he mind? < 1255992384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think his lawyers rabbled a bit, maybe. < 1255992391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got it! that site itself is a coverup < 1255992398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's designed to make the proposition in question seem ludicrous < 1255992400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He'd probably mind, being an authoritarian Republican nutjob. < 1255992403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that any genuine accusations of that are ignored < 1255992409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1255992414 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1255992424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"9/11 was an inside job" was an inside job. Wake up "sheeple"! < 1255992432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: this amount of convolutedness occasionally happens in Agoran scams I plan, but rarely in the real world) < 1255992552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's now a Wolfram Alpha app for the iPhone < 1255992555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It costs $50. < 1255992561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1255992563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what does it do? < 1255992565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not joking. < 1255992569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1255992570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably queries their service. < 1255992573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's the obvious, then why would anyone buy it? < 1255992587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$50! And this is in an age where apps that cost $10 are considered overpriced in the App Store. < 1255992602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Most cost, like, $1.99. It's a sorry state of affairs, the App Store.) < 1255992625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Who would buy ANY mobile software for $50? < 1255992631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's Wolfram. < 1255992636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I wouldn't even buy DESKTOP software that cost that much! < 1255992649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram thinks that everyone else fellates him on a regular basis. < 1255992649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it actually an official app, I wonder? < 1255992654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... < 1255992655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/18/wolfram-alpha-miscalculates-what-its-iphone-app-should-cost/ < 1255992657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I might, if I really needed it for my job < 1255992663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry; TechCrunch link. Please shield your eyes.) < 1255992675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, sure, if I was a designer I'd fork over the, what is it, $1,000? For Photoshop. < 1255992690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you needed it; and you might well do < 1255992696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it depends on what you're designing < 1255992702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graphic designer, that is. < 1255992708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if any sensible rivals have arrived since you got your graphic design degree, or whatever < 1255992718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly doubt that'll happen for many years. < 1255992743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I’m going to mainly focus on second point here, because if you’ve used Wolfram Alpha, you don’t really need much explanation about this app, which is a slick interface for the service. And while I get Wolfram Alpha’s logic behind selling the app for $50, I think it’s faulty logic. Here’s what they’re telling us: < 1255992743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A note on price — it is listed at $49.99, which is basically less than 1/2 the price of a graphing calculator with inferior functionality in comparison, which is how the company came to that number. Or, as we’ve been saying, the price of 12 lattes from Starbucks…" < 1255992758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 lattes from Starbucks might be the only way to spend $50 worse than buying this app < 1255992760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't drink lattes < 1255992765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore, wouldn't want to spend money on them < 1255992769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 anythings from Starbucks! < 1255992784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I really badly needed to buy someone else a drink, I suppose, and assuming they liked that sort of drink < 1255992797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like the graphing calculator thing; it's not like I can't just, oh, HIT UP WOLFRAMALPHA.COM < 1255992802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a whole $0 < 1255992830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That’s fine, but with the exception of the $90 Navigon GPS turn-by-turn app" Wow that's expensive. < 1255992833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : egonomics < 1255992851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's TechCrunch; please, try and set up your "FUCK THIS FUCKING SITE" shield. < 1255992864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: except, that's from a quote in the article < 1255992867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shoddy journalism, self-righteousness, smarmy new media assholes and awful writing await. < 1255992868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not from the article in itself < 1255992874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOW, it's the wolfram people who wrote that < 1255992880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: TechCrunch infects EVERYTHING IT TOUCHESE < 1255992882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*TOUCHES < 1255992886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although TechCrunch did call them on it mercilessly < 1255992904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/IMG_0003.PNG < 1255992909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big is the moon? The $50 question. < 1255992936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Rich coming from them, they who don't verify stories before posting them, who ruthlessly demolish companies over idiocy, who... okay, I'll shut up. < 1255992943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the comments, they reduced the price to $5 already < 1255992952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TechCrunch is really bad for the tech industry...) < 1255992959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hah < 1255992962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ha! < 1255992974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Am I the only person who uses corrections for making statements better as opposed to fixing typos?) < 1255993006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets you have said the right thing first time < 1255993018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strange thing about IRC corrections is, they're normally obvious < 1255993023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet you still feel the urge to make them < 1255993024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It’s also interesting to note that despite talk of a deal with Bing, the defautl web search" < 1255993028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: egonomics, defautl. < 1255993030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the irony! < 1255993056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"invovle" is a very common typo of mine, when I actually try to type "involve" < 1255993062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I did it in that line at the end and had to correct it < 1255993072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. I was laughing at TechCrunch. Stop disturbing me :D < 1255993158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1255993206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3+2=1111 < 1255993326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1255993337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me you somehow got that result from Alpha < 1255993343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say by confusing it with special characters < 1255993399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I still love the way that SCO's trustee got rid of Darl by eliminating the position of CEO...) < 1255993632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/18/wolfram-alpha-miscalculates-what-its-iphone-app-should-cost/#comment-3044256 marvel at the cognitive dissonance of someone prescribing a (terrible) "brilliant" marketing strategy to the inept, bumbling fools at Wolfram Research < 1255993657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got utterly confused by [[the name “Wolfram Alpha” becomes associated with luxury high-end computing power]]... < 1255993677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1255993680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[this is a smart business decision, and brand enhancing for Wolfram Alpha]] dude... < 1255993708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was proved that if you make an iPhone app sufficiently expensive, people will buy it even if it does nothing < 1255993712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the "I Am Rich" debacle) < 1255993758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, some of my RL friends were under the impression that the iPhone was the only high-end mobile phone in existence < 1255993763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple's marketers are doing their job well < 1255993801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be honest, looking at the alternatives they're not *completely* wrong... < 1255993815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the I Am Rich thing was handled terribly < 1255993816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1255993828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing it from the app store was silly... although I'd still give refunds < 1255993834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but WHAT is the mental process of the buyers? < 1255993848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ha ha ha so hilarious... hmm this buy button... click... Password? This can't really work! Tap tap tap. Ahahaha." < 1255993851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time passes* < 1255993857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gets bill* < 1255993865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"B... but I didn't think it would ACTUALLY charge me!" < 1255993877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I thought it was some ... hilarious joke? By... Apple?" < 1255993892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the most expensive iPhone app at the moment is? < 1255993901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly that $90 GPS app? < 1255993918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that that one's popular, I doubt it's the /most/ expensive < 1255993925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, why has nobody undercut them yet?0 < 1255993926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1255993931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need more repos in general < 1255993950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we need more ... source code repositories! < 1255993954 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the app store is proving that even amongst people generally willing to spend a lot of money on things, repos bring the price of things more in line with their actual worth < 1255993966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Expand repos plz) < 1255993992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm using it as a general term that encompasses things like the App Store and the Ubuntu software repositories < 1255994013 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, sites from which you can download a large variety of software, which are relatively centralised < 1255994014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, more in line with their actual worth would be "closer to $0", which, while true, that isn't the reason; iPhone piracy is hard, and piracy is what is pushing other digital information to its true worthlessness. < 1255994029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everyone pirates, though; some people are too honest < 1255994030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more the fact that buying is *so easy* — you press buy, wait a few seconds to download, it's done. < 1255994034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you put in the password. < 1255994035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, it's a case of only honest people being published < 1255994039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*punished < 1255994046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "honest" isn't a synonym for "law-abiding" < 1255994048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only the uncorrected sentence were true! < 1255994051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it can be < 1255994060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means either "law-abiding" or "truth-telling" depending on context < 1255994094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, Google disagrees with me < 1255994184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"honest man" is the only context the former applies in, I believe < 1255994213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1255994220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I was using that context! < 1255994225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even stranger that you call me on it < 1255994237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"honest people" is not "honest man". < 1255994263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm not sure I can agree with "if only [law-abiding people were published] [was] true!". < 1255994266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is, it's a straightforward generalisation < 1255994274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, and idioms are repellant to that. < 1255994281 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1255994302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom < 1255994318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to realise I'm part of organisations where the good sort of political correctness is so ingrained in the mentality that things that are, say, gender-biased for no good reason almost feel grammatically incorrect < 1255994369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your parent < 1255994373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I totally agree (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html is one of my favourite things ever) with the gender-neutral thing, it's just that a whole bunch of idioms only work because they're archaic; their literal meaning being entirely different. < 1255994378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "honest people" doesn't really work. < 1255994382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what you should've said < 1255994385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of does, but eh. < 1255994389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hyuk hyuk hyuk < 1255994390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic punology < 1255994401 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about fun < 1255994404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about duty < 1255994469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pun Force! < 1255994476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Punly Meanderings Forevertothmorse! < 1255994509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forevertothmorse < 1255994608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255994631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if that's a word man! < 1255994643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a word person. < 1255994654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1255994668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E < 1255994682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i actually laughed out loud at your E too < 1255994694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe the person thing wasn't very funny either < 1255994694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm laughing out loud now too < 1255994698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure why < 1255994702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if this conversation's related < 1255994706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm being tired. < 1255995098 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255995123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jhgfcx' < 1255995316 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255995365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;' < 1255995433 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255995452 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later"