00:00:47 I don't have ipconfig or winipcfg... uh oh. 00:01:34 To Add/Remove Programs we go, to modify the system! 00:01:45 You know, Explorer and the Start Menu are quite nice in 95. 00:02:15 * ehird dicks the multimedia sound schemes 00:02:17 ... 00:02:19 TICKS 00:02:25 And sound recorder. 00:02:46 And Volume Control... 00:03:51 Can't find anything ethernetty, but we'll do that later. 00:04:22 Ah. 00:04:26 I haven't installed TCP/IP. 00:04:26 Heh. 00:05:35 Restarting! 00:06:26 You know, 98 sucked a lot more than 95. 00:07:14 Windows 3.11 for Workgroups RULZ 00:07:20 Not rly. 00:07:26 OMG IT ROX UR SOX 00:07:35 I've been please waiting while my computer shuts down for a long time now, 95. 00:07:40 Mind if I reboot? 00:08:48 Microsoft 00:08:51 Windows 95 00:08:54 Microsoft Internet Explorer 00:09:02 I like what you've done to my splash screen, 95. 00:09:29 Apart from a JScript compilation error, MSN is loading. 00:09:36 It is teh ugly. 00:09:50 nethack.org, though, is beautiful! 00:09:59 The grey background perfectly compliments the black logo. 00:10:39 Anyone know how to make the 95 VGA driver not horribly slow? Thought not. 00:14:31 Good that the internet's working, though. 00:15:25 Oh, OF COURSE AC'97 won't work! 00:15:27 Keyword '97. 00:16:13 * ehird emulates a Soundblaster 16 instead 00:16:40 There's probably a more suitable video driver than VGA. 00:16:56 Yes, and it's in VirtualBox's guest additions, which *probably* don't support Windows 95... 00:17:10 I mean a generic one. 00:17:13 Ah. 00:17:14 e.g. some generic VESA driver. 00:17:14 True. 00:17:21 Yes, I'll give that a try. 00:17:32 But wow it's slow. Just shutting down takes forever to draw the screen-dimming checkerboard. 00:17:35 I can watch it go by. 00:18:19 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:19:20 I wonder what the Gameport Joystick it found is... 00:19:34 Oh, no; don't tell me it can't find a file. 00:20:15 Would help if I mounted the CD. 00:20:47 Oh, Qt isn't hinting more; it's just using a font one point size to small. Like that Grinch fellow. 00:20:54 Why hello there, frozen 95. 00:22:18 * ehird is thrown into the 98 booter for the hacked 95 CD, and elects to boot windows with C:\win 00:22:46 Well, windows\win. 00:23:04 Aww, it can't start like that. 00:23:05 Oh well. 00:24:43 Aaand there's Eno's soothing tones. 00:27:00 Gregor: Far as I can tell 95 doesn't have any VESA drivers! 00:27:06 It does have a selection of VGA ones, though, and an SVGA one. 00:27:24 Well, there's "Standard PCI Graphics Adapter (XGA)". 00:27:28 Try SVGA, that should still be better. 00:27:44 Whatsabout that PCI XGA one? 00:27:45 I'm not sure it's being exposed as PCI. 00:27:48 Not a clue 00:28:02 SVGA it is. 00:28:05 OTHER HARDWARE CONFLICTS DUN DUN DUN 00:28:06 No shit 00:28:16 Hey an alert sound. It sucks. 00:28:26 Windows 95 is being annoyingly usable so far. 00:28:36 It's meant to be all complicated and ancient so I can laugh at it. 00:29:17 And it crashes like usual, so I'll reboot and it'll install it on start-up. 00:31:12 Well it failed at that; it can't find drivers for Unknown Device. 00:31:14 Let's try again. 00:31:43 Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze 00:31:52 Reboot 00:31:58 Realise I didn't put the 98 disc in 00:31:59 Put in 00:32:06 Boot 95 00:33:38 Ah. 00:33:42 It's currently using PCI/VGA. 00:33:47 I'll try PCI/XGA. 00:34:19 Apply, restart and here we go. 00:34:39 I love how 95 can restart without going through the BIOS. 00:35:02 Okay, the XGA driver isn't compatible, but it falled back. 00:35:08 ...you know, Xorg doesn't fall back. 00:35:28 I will note that Xorg sucks. 00:35:29 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:35:53 It's impossible for something to do X where X is failing at X. 00:35:56 Or, uh, wait. 00:36:14 Aaand I can have 800x600 with 16 colours, plus change my font sizes. 00:37:22 Works, but is just as slow. 00:39:56 Apparently I'm using a Pentium Pro. 00:44:25 freenode's java applet fails because there's no document.getElementById :) 00:45:27 JScript didn't support object literals, then... 00:47:36 mIRC still supports Windows 95?!?!!?!?! 00:47:45 Wow... 00:50:09 -!- ehird95 has joined. 00:50:25 Am I possibly the prers on using the oldest OS to enter here? 00:50:38 :Harumph, backspace doesn't work. 00:50:41 lol 00:50:51 I don't think anyone's used anythinig older than Windows 95 to come here, anyway. 00:50:53 ^H ftw 00:51:05 Greetz from Windows 95 Telnet. 00:51:18 coppro: despite what I told Telnet, freenode's IRC link is anonot a VT100. 00:51:29 It will be dstripping out my backspaces. 00:51:44 Although I'm avoiding using that key, due to it, you nkow, being useless. 00:52:29 Hi. 00:53:34 mIRC works on windows 95, you know. 00:53:40 although I suppose telnet is preferable to mIRC. 00:53:45 See two lines beofore I entered. 00:53:56 Anyway, mIRc is C is so bloated thseese days. 00:54:07 It wouldn't feel... 95. 00:54:07 * Azstal makes a note to be less lazy 00:54:13 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 00:54:45 Is there a Telnet option to wait for the whole line beofore ensending? 00:54:53 Is there an option to read the - oh, there it is. 00:55:04 it would feel slightly 95-y if you left it in fixedsys 00:55:05 Silly laggy network stack. 00:55:16 Asztal: BUT ONLY SLIGHTLT 00:55:18 SLIGHTLY 00:55:49 Any ideas for making the grahics performance less cripplingly slow? 00:58:06 * ehird95 makes 95 not prompt for a network logon on startup, reboots to persist that setting and see if it works 00:58:15 Yes, I did just type that using literal Ctrl-As. 00:58:27 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:58:55 Actually it prompts me for a username and password, but I can skip that to disable it. 00:59:52 Hmm, it wants a username though. 01:00:02 So what was my username before this, I wonder? 01:04:22 "BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 T6" 01:04:23 ^_^ 01:05:03 the Ig Nobels are on :) 01:06:01 the ig nobels vaguely irriate me 01:06:06 *irritate 01:06:30 it groups valid research with homeopaths, and says to the valid researchers "your work seems amusing to the common man! harde har har!" 01:12:14 the Rule of Funny wins 01:12:30 lol 01:12:32 this is hilariou 01:14:13 what 01:14:34 nobody talks about windows 95 on google :( 01:14:34 all xp 01:16:38 ehird: I always use literal Ctrl-As to type my ACTIONs when doing IRC via telnet. 01:16:55 Warrigal: Yes, but this is Windows Telnet. 01:16:59 Graphical. Weird thing. 01:17:21 "If you want True color or high resolution, you need to download special drivers. 01:17:21 http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm" 01:17:22 ... hyperterminal? 01:17:22 Harumph 01:17:25 Asztal: nah 01:18:14 VBEMP x86 Project 01:18:14 Universal VESA/VBE Video Display Driver 01:18:14 (for Windows 9x x86 Architecture) 01:18:16 So, this is it. 01:20:43 Some old version of Opera is likely to be the snappiest, most compatible browser for this, right? 01:21:42 What version of IE is on there, if any? 01:22:02 IE 3. 01:22:06 IE4 doesn't work with msn.com, incidentally 01:22:16 I can probably get IE 5.5 or something, max. 01:22:18 What OSes were IE2 and 1 for? 01:22:27 3.0 or 3.11 or something 01:22:29 I got IE6 working on Win98 01:23:24 * ehird reboots, installs the third-party VESA driver, yay? 01:24:16 Heh, IE 3 can't do about:blank 01:24:35 C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\BLANK.HTM 01:24:36 I remember playing with IE's about:some_html 01:24:37 Stuff 01:24:41 Yeah. 01:25:16 You know, by "IE is a part of the OS" I think they meant "we forgot to make folders, so we have our HTM files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM and stuff, and we can't figure out how to extract all the files". 01:25:30 And lo, Marketing went: "And this is Good." 01:26:20 I wish my mouse wheel worked. 01:26:24 I thought IE wasn't considered part of the OS until 98? 01:27:38 "Slow driver operation when user scroll, move or resize a window." 01:27:40 D'oh 01:27:44 Sgeo_: Probably true 01:28:07 Sgeo_: It's certainly an OS *component* in 95, though. 01:28:16 It even changes the boot splash to include "Microsoft Internet Explorer". 01:28:36 o.O 01:28:56 * Sgeo_ remembers changing his bootscreen to Userfriendly stuff 01:29:54 Should have changed it to your desktop background, say with a fake window saying "Starting Windows...". It'd feel like the graphics have initialised earlier, providing that your resolution was low enough that it didn't look all pixelated. :P 01:30:08 "It's so fast now!" 01:30:13 heh 01:32:00 Cool, 95 can't handle PNGs by default. 01:34:40 Well, PNG came out in 1997 I think. 01:35:39 Sgeo_: The service pack for 95 included IE. 01:35:51 Made some rather massive patches. 01:36:03 ehird, clearly, we should all switch back to .gif! 01:36:06 (largely for the sake of "ITS PART OF THE OS!") 01:36:34 .gif has wider support than .png! 01:36:45 (The patent on GIFs ran out, right?) 01:37:00 Yes. 01:37:07 Well, on the algorithm. 01:37:21 Hmm, I need to unzip things. 01:37:29 I guess WinZip is my best option for 95... 01:37:31 An old version. 01:45:04 7-Zip lists its first working version as 98; worth the risk, I wonder? 01:46:40 Apparently some older 7-Zips worked on 95, so. 01:46:52 An older WinZip might actually be lighter, though. 01:47:35 It's impossible to use sourceforge's download site with IE 3, so old WinZip it is. 01:55:08 "Tight integration with the Windows 95 shell" 01:55:11 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :P 01:56:29 Happily disabled. 01:56:41 WinZip 6.2, circa 1996. 01:56:55 It looks like every WinZip version. 01:57:28 "CompuServe mail: 70056,241" 01:57:41 "Bringing the convenience of Windows to the use of ZIP files" 01:57:55 Ooh, and it still has that Path column instead of showing a hierarchical view. 01:58:05 Why do they do that? 02:00:16 Driver installed with a double-click, files deletes. 02:00:17 *deleted 02:02:03 Okay, not *quite* double-clicking; think I need to use it as a Have Disk. 02:03:04 Yep. 02:03:17 Ohnoes, an error D: 02:03:36 Well, I'll reboot and hope for the best. 02:04:08 Pow! Kazap! That's some fast display technology! 02:04:25 256 color?!!?! Let's use... AWESOME COLOURW^W32-bit 02:04:28 *^W^W 02:04:58 It only goes to 800x600; probably because of the 256-colour thing. Should be able to bunk that up post-32bitizing. 02:05:06 Aw, nope. 02:05:10 Can VESA only do 800x600? 02:08:18 Yeah, indeed. 02:08:20 Oh well. 02:08:59 "Users employing the Windows 95 operating system who want to install Opera 9.5 are therefore advised to download and install the free Windows Sockets 2.0 update from Microsoft." 02:09:09 They... still supported 95 as of last version? 02:12:00 * ehird installs Rain, then sets about finding a browser, IRC client 02:16:09 And so my fan spins down; thanks, Rain. 02:21:55 * ehird installs IntelliPoint drivers 4.01 for Windows 95 02:21:55 Should include Wheel Mouse drivers, which should enable the mouse wheel. 02:22:50 ...apparently these MOUSE DRIVERS require a newer IE. 02:23:04 WAT 02:23:17 I've been talking to myself for an awful long while; anyone there? 02:23:42 Nein. 02:23:48 Thought so. 02:24:02 Any ideas how the fuck some mouse drivers for Windows 95 could require IE in any way? 02:24:11 Or is it just forcing me to install it because of bullshit, and lying to me about why? 02:25:44 Heh, it's unable to launch IE5setup.exe anyway. 02:25:59 I'll Just Use An Older Version(TM). 02:35:46 I think they've removed the fucking drivers. 02:49:33 hello everyone 02:49:38 O_O 02:49:55 long time no see 02:50:37 i have 40-50 math problems a week, plus a few hundred pages to read 02:50:53 ah the overachieving thing 02:50:58 yes 02:51:26 * coppro has lots of work he should be doing 02:51:41 such as doing a bonus assignment to bring my test mark in Bio up to 100% :D 02:52:21 -!- ehird_ has joined. 02:52:27 hi oklopol 02:52:27 really my competitiveness is completely rational, in automata theory, i was disappointed there was no problem only i had done 02:52:29 he was here before oerjan 02:52:31 yesterday i think 02:52:40 didn't matter i was the only one to have done them all 02:53:01 ehird_: i'm sure you quoted that from months ago :D 02:53:14 i was here this morning i think 02:53:15 i mean 02:53:18 yesterday 02:54:06 well i was probably sleeping. as i will soon. 02:55:51 windows 95 is cool. 02:57:52 hmm formatting one of those extraneous disk drives instantly closes virtualbox 02:57:58 i guess they're non-floppy things that it mistakes for floppies :) 02:58:04 god windows 95 is so quick to boot up 02:58:10 hmm... this pizza guy is bad, but he doesn't set a record 02:58:45 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:58:54 also i was disappointed the guy in the wheelchair who can only mumble and bite his arm was actually just an average student, i had my hawking fantasies 02:59:07 *facepalm* 02:59:14 :D 02:59:47 :D 03:00:12 * oerjan now has fantasies of him being a pizza guy on the side 03:00:13 oerjan: you mean moutharm 03:00:16 * ehird_ shot 03:00:29 * ehird_ braces for swatting 03:00:56 how do you know i suffer from brachiophagia -----### 03:01:17 so, see you later, need to go do stuff -> 03:01:50 only skin deep, but still 03:02:15 bye oklopol 03:02:22 funnily enough, CSS level 2 isn't out but CSS level 3 is already being drafted 03:05:23 huh 03:05:26 you're wrong 03:05:31 it's only css 2.1 that isn't out 03:08:53 gah, I like Windows 95 03:09:00 so upsetting 03:11:37 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:12:05 -!- Asztal has joined. 03:12:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:12:15 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:29:40 Please Tell Me Why You Are Still Useing Windows 95 WHEN You Can Buy a Recon XP Machine Of A Decent Spec for 75 Pounds Why Are U Still F**king Around With 95 Well Ok I Still Have A 98 Machine But Thats ON 24 7 for my email inbox for work it sa pice of s**t but i only need 4 emails --Annoyances.org Windows 95 forum 03:31:34 clearly that guy has the annoyance part spot on 03:31:58 it's like idiot poetry. 03:46:07 ehird_: you weren't entirely correct about Intel drivers sucking less that ATI. Less stuff works, but the stuff that works works better 03:46:10 s/less that/more than/ 03:48:36 less stuff like what? 03:48:39 anyway, it's still shit slow 03:49:15 it is less choppy 03:49:21 and I can run compositing and OGL at the same time 04:02:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:06:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:10:54 -!- ehird_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:10:55 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:08 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:09 -!- Asztal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:11:09 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:12:43 -!- Asztal has joined. 04:12:43 -!- ehird_ has joined. 04:12:43 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Leonidas has joined. 04:12:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:12:43 -!- Warrigal has joined. 04:13:19 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 04:13:25 no nickserv 04:13:27 anyway 04:13:28 * ehird upgrades MSIE 3.0 to MSIE 3.02 to get the new WinInet.dll for Opera 9 04:14:02 no worky :( 04:14:09 * ehird sees if he can persuade opera 10 to run 04:14:30 ah 04:14:35 perhaps with the classic installer 04:14:39 if that doesn't work, opera 9.64 classic installer 04:17:21 "Warning: Using this option requires all users on this computer to be administrators." 04:17:32 Users? Administrators? What do you speak of, clearly modern program! 04:18:26 "The system library Msimg32.dll is missing or too old, so certain transparency effects will be slow and possibly not drawn corectly. Obtaining the library from a Windows ME installation and placing it in your Windows system directory will fix this." 04:18:42 Well gee, I don't think I'm going to be infecting this VM with the virus you speak of... :P 04:19:02 It, uh, holy shit. 04:19:03 It works. 04:19:18 Like, works works. 04:19:20 Properly. 04:19:28 ...Slowly... 04:19:38 No that LIES 04:19:44 nothing from ME is good EVER 04:19:52 I mean Opera 10. 04:19:55 ...on Windows 9. 04:19:57 *95 04:20:04 You've gotta wonder why they bother coding for it. 04:20:08 -!- augur has joined. 04:20:09 Must be a bitch. 04:20:16 SPEAKING OF BITCHES HI AUGUR 04:20:37 ha, it really works properly 04:20:42 reddit.com renders in a few seconds smoothly 04:20:52 OH HEY EHIRD 04:21:44 For my next trick, I'm going to fucking - wait for it - try to install Flash. 04:21:54 I WILL CONQUER YOU, WINDOWS 95! 04:22:00 I WILL FIND WHAT YOU CANNOT DO, AND I WILL SPIT AT THEE! 04:22:52 "Windows 98/ME" WELL THAT'S BASICALLY LIKE 95! 04:23:04 Heh, no Flash 10 for me, oh no, only 9 04:23:38 Bah. 04:23:41 Unsupported operating system. 04:23:44 Well I'll just go for the previous version! 04:26:17 Note to self: Make it so that hovering over Opera's menu doesn't highlight them; other programs don't do that,. 04:26:18 *that. 04:34:06 -!- ehird95 has joined. 04:34:10 Hello! 04:34:20 I'm using Opera 10 on Windows 95. 04:34:51 VERSION Opera/9.80 (Windows 95; U; en) Presto/2.2.15 Version/10.00 04:36:26 I ought to see if mIRC would run better... hey, why is Opera in my system tray? 04:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:37:46 Hmm... how can I remove it... 04:45:08 -!- augur has joined. 04:45:27 Hi augur. 04:45:49 oh hi ehi- 04:45:51 WAIT A MINUTE 04:45:58 What 04:46:03 *What. 04:46:06 next itll be ehird98 04:46:09 then ehird2000 04:46:11 then ehirdME 04:46:17 and so on 04:46:20 GOOD GOD MAN 04:46:33 Naw. 98 is boring, but 2000 is fun. Me is just oh god. 04:46:41 augur: also, I'm actually using Windows 95 to type this line. 04:46:58 huh. 04:47:15 I'm using Opera 10, which also renders modern webpages really snappily just fine. Admittedly 95 is being virtualised under a system with a 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo. 04:47:21 The VM only has 64MiB of RAM though. 04:47:37 Also, my scroll wheel works. 04:47:52 -!- ehird95 has left (?). 04:48:22 -!- ehird95 has joined. 04:48:25 Eep. 04:48:28 Opera crashed there. 04:49:00 Anyway, I actually had to install drivers for Microsoft mice, but they enable the scroll wheel just fine... 04:49:55 Hi augur. 04:52:56 o hai 04:53:38 So, the latest mIRC should also work with 95. 05:01:11 I don't suppose anyone knows of a good tool to measure memory and CPU usage by individual processes in a list for windows 9x? Thought not. 05:10:14 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:10:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:40:46 -!- ehird95 has joined. 05:40:57 test 05:41:00 test 05:46:24 I wonder if ehird95 will say something. 05:47:53 likely! 05:48:10 -!- ehird95 has quit. 05:48:26 -!- ehird95 has joined. 05:50:06 I wonder why opening a DOS prompt garbles everything. 05:50:43 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:30:23 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:42:16 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:43:30 -!- ehird95 has joined. 06:43:46 mwahaha! 06:43:57 with the glorious power of the registry, I have enabled full colour icons! 06:45:36 oh 06:45:51 I was limited to 800x600 because of the setting of the monitor to svga 800x600 06:45:52 silly me 06:46:19 now i can have up to 1600x1200! 06:49:19 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:56:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:59:54 * Rugxulo wonders why ehird is obsessed with visual effects ... 07:14:09 * Rugxulo is brainstorming for suitable words using A, A, T ("skip to next line" idiom in ETA) 07:15:01 can't use any of the following before those, though: HTAOINSE 07:15:08 (well, not easily) 07:17:41 "apathy", "a cat", "Paul Blart", ... 07:18:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:39:07 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:46:37 -!- ehird95 has joined. 07:47:20 Rugxulo: i'm not "obsessed with visual effects" 07:47:29 it's just that the 16-color icons for modern programs are reaaaaaaaaaaally ugly 07:47:42 and it's just one registry change to fix the *artificially limited* colors 07:47:49 (to sell Win95 Plus!) 07:48:13 I don't think they sell Plus! anymore 07:48:36 Rugxulo: yeah, they don't sell Windows 95 any more, either; but that's what I did the hack on because when they made 95 they were trying to sell Plus!. 07:48:39 besides, I think Vista is different 07:48:55 do you realise that the icons were 16-color before... 07:49:00 (uses .PNG or whatever) 07:49:06 never cared, honestly 07:49:18 I was fixing an intentional deficiency in Windows 95 so that the icons for modern programs were legible; it took about 10 seconds. 07:49:20 I remember playing games that came with Windows 98 Plus! 07:49:41 Nobody makes 16-color icons nowadays, so they're illegible blobs. 07:50:05 * Sgeo__ wonders if Windows 98 Plus! would work in Xp 07:50:06 XP 07:50:10 doubt it 07:50:32 MS couldn't even get Vista out the door without breaking MSVC 2k5 etc. 07:51:04 Anyway, I've had no luck getting a widescreen resolution, though Nathan of toastytech.com used Windows 95 with a widescreen monitor as his main OS as recently as a few years ago, iirc 07:51:14 But that's with a Voodoo card; I just have this lowly VESA thing. 07:51:33 Still, it's pushing 1280x1024 at the moment, with a small black bar at the top and bottom and big ones to the sides. 07:51:41 The graphics performance is... not stellar. 07:52:00 But menus and windows and such pop up instantly, and Opera 10 is more or less usable when it isn't apparently using up all the CPU. 07:52:28 I'd be surprised if Opera 10 did that, but who knows ... 07:53:00 Rugxulo: did what? 07:53:01 * Rugxulo has been using Chrome a lot lately, so has been neglecting Opera, Firefox, etc. 07:53:08 hogged all your cpu(s) 07:53:16 Rugxulo: I can't use Chrome because it requires 2000/XP and I'm using 95. 07:53:36 even Firefox 2.0.0.18 (or whatever) still works on Win95, right? 07:53:42 No, only Firefox <2 07:53:49 Besides, Opera 10 supports more stuff and is waaaay more snappy. 07:53:49 but yeah, if you're using an older computer without multi-core, a lot of stuff won't be as fast 07:54:07 I'm 99% sure that 2.0.0.18 supports Win98 at least (not Win95 also??) 07:54:09 Oh, I have two cores; it's just that I'm using an OS that thinks I'm running the top-of-the-line processor, a Pentium Pro. 07:54:15 (it's in a VM) 07:54:18 Win95 is not dual core friendly 07:54:20 Rugxulo: 2 drops support for 95 07:54:23 ah, VM, no wonder it's slow 07:54:25 No 07:54:32 Nowadays VMs run the code directly on the CPU 07:54:49 Only the hardware is emulated 07:54:52 not all of it, and even then that's only with virtualization extensions 07:54:56 And it doesn't take much to push some pixels 07:55:00 I still don't understand how Win95 and Win98 are so different. I know that a lot of stuff runs on 98 but not 95, but WHY? 07:55:00 It's just that the VESA driver is, well, slow 07:55:13 Rugxulo: Of course I'm using the virtualization extensions 07:55:20 VMs are worthlessly slow without them 07:55:34 slow is still better than nothing 07:55:37 Sgeo__: Win98 replaces explorer with IE. Most else is artificial. 07:55:51 Rugxulo: I don't *need* to run Win95; if I had to have it so slow I probably wouldn't bother 07:56:00 * Rugxulo doesn't know all the differences either, but Win98SE had a different driver model, no? 07:56:12 why are you running Win95, then? 07:56:21 Because 95 is fun. 07:56:40 by itself? or do you have apps too? 07:56:43 It's quite modern - can run an impressive amount of Windows software - and uses the same basic GUI paradigm as in the ever-popular XP - and yet it's really simple. 07:57:13 Rugxulo: It's 95/OSR1 07:57:21 which comes on a CD and bundles IE 3 07:57:24 I remember and used it 07:57:35 I upgraded IE from 3.0 to 3.02 to get a new DLL file for Opera 10 07:57:48 heh, my copy was an "upgrade", came with two floppies for Win 3.0 and like 16 more 1.68 MB overformatted floppies for Win95 itself (pre-OSR2.5) 07:57:48 Ugh, this song is not how my nostalgic memory remembers it, but it has to be the right song 07:57:59 Software I'm using: Microsoft IntelliPoint 3.something (for MS mice, but it makes the mouse wheel work) 07:58:03 mIRC 07:58:03 I'm very surprised Opera 10 works 07:58:05 Opera 10 07:58:09 old WinZip 07:58:15 actually, I was kinda pissed when a lot of people dropped support for Win9x fairly recently 07:58:18 WinZip 6.2 07:58:20 circa like 1996 07:58:27 (Firefox, Pelles C, soon Cygwin, etc.) 07:58:28 Rugxulo: codewise 9x is a bitch. 07:58:41 I'm just glad that the Opera and mIRC devs are crazy. 07:58:41 more than DOS? doubt it ;-) 07:58:49 With DOS you just poke the hardware. 07:58:55 remember, I like DOS ;-) 07:58:58 With 9x you poke the hardware through a buggy and fucked-up additional layer. 07:59:14 you can use the wheel in DOS too (CuteMouse) 07:59:23 Opera 10 is stunning for the OS, though; it can render modern pages in seconds 07:59:33 very very lucky that it works there 07:59:37 yep 07:59:57 it's still an officially supported platform, and they have knowledge-base articles about it for fixing problems as recently as opera 9 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:01 (circa 2006 or something) 08:00:09 explaining that you have to install winsock2 08:00:10 kudos to them 08:00:15 so some crazy people must be using opera on windows 95 08:00:18 i mean, apart from me 08:00:29 obviously 08:00:42 heck, even some things (e.g. VirtualBox since 1.52 or so) don't even run on Win2k !! 08:00:46 gotta wonder if the execs have got word of that... don't think they'd be so fond of spending so many resources for that 0.0001% :-) 08:00:48 so getting Win9x compatibility is even harder! 08:01:07 If I developed Windows software I'd never think about supporting 9x, just for my sanity 08:01:27 well, you're too young ... if you grew up with it, it might be different (nostalgia, experience, etc.) 08:01:30 I don't really care if support is dropped; this is a fun historical curiosity and something to put on less beefy machines, not a hyper-duper-workstation-2009 08:01:35 and I can always use old versions 08:01:54 Rugxulo: Hey, I grew up with 3.11. 08:02:00 Win9x is limited in max. RAM anyways, and SATA drives are either hard or impossible to get working, so it's definitely not for new machines 08:02:12 needs patches just to run newer Firefox or Doom 3 or whatever ... 08:02:16 (98 was out in the year I got a computer, so it and 95 must have been too expensive :-P) 08:02:25 3.11 with win32s is the one that's a bit hard to find support for nowadays. 08:02:37 nothing runs on Win32s, I looked (a year or so ago) ;-) 08:02:44 Rugxulo: limited in max ram? isn't it just to like 2GiB 08:02:48 due to 32-bit without PAE 08:02:55 I wouldn't call that a huge limitation because, you know, it's 95 08:02:57 1 GB, I think 08:03:06 I'm running a smoooooooooooooooooooth workstation here with 64MiB of virtual ram 08:03:14 Don't think it's swapped once :P 08:03:15 one guy uses the other gig of his RAM for a big RAM drive ;-) 08:03:31 Put the swap file on that RAM drive. 08:03:36 Bazam, extra, slightly slower RAM! 08:03:50 something like that, I forget the details 08:04:10 and actually I'm not sure if any (most?) MS OSes even support PAE besides the server versions (maybe) 08:04:24 Anyway, you can actually use disks as big as you want with 95; iirc 64GB was claimed as the limit but apparently 160GB and the like work just fine 08:04:37 137 GB without some fix, I think 08:04:45 How limiting. 08:04:54 even Win98 had a bug where it would crash if you left it running for like 48 days 08:05:03 (obviously no one ever did, heh) 08:05:04 I think 95 has that too. 08:05:08 47.7 or something 08:05:16 Wonder if suspend/resume counts, or hibernate/resume 08:05:27 If so then it could be semi-relevant on a laptop. 08:05:27 besides servers, I doubt if anybody would want to 08:05:34 Then again Windows crashes more frequently than that anyway. 08:05:44 not sure if Win9x supports ACPI 08:05:47 only APM, probably 08:05:56 49.7 days. 08:05:56 As a plus, though, 95 boots to desktop in, oh, 15 seconds? 08:06:01 Maybe 20 seconds. 08:06:01 Or 2^32 milliseconds, if you prefer. 08:06:11 2^32/1000/60/60/24 08:06:11 49.71026962962962962962 08:06:19 yes, it's very fast 08:06:23 Although if it wants to ScanDisk because you crashed, which is when boot time matters most, it takes about a minute or so. 08:06:31 Which is irritating, as it refuses to let you skip it. 08:06:31 XP was allegedly designed to boot to GUI in 30 secs. (but that doesn't count responsiveness) 08:06:41 Vista is a lot more responsive quicker 08:06:53 (allegedly, hard to compare when my XP machine is single core and this one is dual) 08:06:55 The GUI of 95 is very well polished 08:07:12 I'd say it's more focused than Mac OS, apart from the settings dialogs, which are a bit sprawling. 08:07:14 ehird, that's the price you pay for FAT vs. NTFS 08:07:16 (Classic Mac OS) 08:07:56 never used classic Mac OS 08:08:10 brb, uninstaller wants me to reboot :P 08:08:19 -!- ehird95 has quit. 08:10:00 -!- ehird95 has joined. 08:10:04 That win95 pinball works on win32s, they say. And I do remember having some programs that required win32s. 08:10:25 Argh, I think I'm going to have to write a little program that runs in the background and, if you click in the bottom-left corner, opens the start menu. 08:10:40 See, there's a whole list of win32s-compatible programs: http://www.i24.com/en/win32s/tips/w32slist.htm 08:10:44 2000 and XP do it, even though the button seems to stop before then; it's so annoying to see a corner being used without Fitt's Law. 08:10:47 Stupid, stupid, stupid. 08:11:12 It must be easy to get all mouse clicks in a certain position, right? No permissions or anything to deal with. 08:11:35 fizzie, I mean it's hard to find freeware Win32s apps anymore 08:11:52 OpenWatcom still supports all that stuff, though (ironically) 08:12:40 One option for Windows 95's sharp GUI + less horrifically broken internals is Windows NT 4.0, which is... just that. 08:12:40 seen that list, not huge, most of that is hard to find, barely works, or ain't free 08:12:57 NT kernel running the Windows 95 shell. 08:13:00 Win NT 4.0 needs higher requirements and only goes up to DX3 08:13:12 and no LFNs for DOS apps (without TSR / DLL combo) 08:13:22 That DX3 thing is an issue, but higher system requirements is kinda irrelevant; they're all rock-bottom. 08:13:33 Also, how many DOS apps actually use LFNs? 08:13:37 Infinite width buttons! 08:13:42 irrelevant now but not then 08:13:46 how many? all DJGPPv2 apps! 08:13:50 Yes, but I'm talking now. :P 08:14:00 well obviously now 08:14:05 Also, how many are there of those? 3? 08:14:07 :P 08:14:14 several hundred 08:14:24 Mostly unix stuff, though, yah? 08:14:26 even a lot of FreeDOS' 16-bit stuff supports LFNs 08:14:28 no 08:14:43 DJGPP was pretty popular among hobbyist-freeware-developery people. 08:14:48 What with being, you know, free. 08:14:56 free and good (POSIX, GCC, etc.) 08:14:56 My first C compiler, I think. 08:15:15 current DJGPP + GCC beats OpenWatcom hands down 08:15:15 Yay, some bullshit I can't delete. 08:15:30 Into the regedit! 08:15:45 Of course all the "real" coders had a copy of Watcom with a bit shady background. 08:16:07 Speaking of shady backgrounds, I wonder if I can get Microsoft to sue me for pirating this 95. 08:16:15 GCC wasn't as good until the ECGS merger (1999), then it really took off 08:16:17 Using dos4gw instead of cwsdpmi is the true mark of a professional. 08:16:23 Like, throw rocks in Bill's window with "I PIRATED 95" etched into them. 08:16:39 dos4gw is desperately buggy 08:16:45 and big and bloated, but it mostly works 08:17:08 ehird: MURDER doesn't have a STATUTE of LIMITATIONS; I'm sure they'd sue you. 08:17:10 Doom used Watcom/DOS4GW but Quake used DJGPPv2 08:17:10 * Sgeo__ has a legal copy of Win98 >.> 08:17:22 Win98! It's like 95 but with IE craptergration! 08:17:31 ehird, even if they did, I could just send you like my 18-floppy copy (heh) and they'd probably shut up 08:17:33 98SE! It's like 98 except it's totally new! 08:17:50 * Rugxulo seriously prefers FreeDOS over Win9x 08:18:01 Rugxulo: I'm actually considering reinstalling from the floppy copy (don't copy that floppy); it doesn't force you to install IE, you see. 08:18:04 Does the 95 disk have the Microsoft Comic Chat or wahtever it's called? 08:18:13 Sgeo__: not sure. I can look if you want. 08:18:34 dare I ask, but what host OS are you running Win95 on? 08:18:36 Given that the licenses don't really expire, I think I have a "legal" copy of win95 (and possibly some out of {3.11, 3.1, 3.0, 1.02} too, I don't quite remember where those came from) too. 08:18:36 and what VM? 08:18:38 * Sgeo__ is curious, sure 08:18:42 Rugxulo: VirtualBox. 08:18:53 VirtualBox is good (although not as much with 16-bit code) 08:18:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what Windows 1.02 was like 08:18:58 crap :-) 08:19:03 Host OS is Ubuntu 9.10 alpha6. 08:19:07 * Rugxulo never used it but has seen the pics, ugh 08:19:10 Running on a late-2006 iMac. 08:19:14 9.10 beta was released recently 08:19:17 Hey, EGA graphics and everything. 08:19:22 iMac? surprising 08:19:24 Rugxulo: That'll just come in the updates. 08:19:40 And Win1 did support windowing! Though not overlapping windows, obviously, just split-screening. 08:19:42 VirtualBox fullscreen doesn't change the host resolution in Windows, boo 08:19:47 I've had this iMac since 2006 and OS X only started to annoy me recently. 08:19:59 95 actually still has Program Manager! 08:20:07 fizzie, I know ... not exactly useful IMHO 08:20:11 It sucks. 08:20:28 Rugxulo: Well, you could also minimize programs, so it makes some sense. Maybe. A bit. 08:21:02 ...I just tried progman in XP.. 08:21:17 "WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?" -- \Sampler\Videos\200bttrf 08:21:23 "Start" 08:21:25 *click* 08:21:30 WHOA 3D SPIN 08:21:32 It's so 1995. 08:21:34 So far, it didn't complain about it not existing, but nothing's starting 08:22:05 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Windows1.0.png is a very representable screenshot of Windows 1; that's what it looked like. 08:22:14 A Weezer video on the 95 CD? Microsoft tricked me into downloading a Weezer video. 08:22:20 Damn you, Microsoft! 08:22:38 Weezer? 08:22:43 The green bar at the bottom edge gets icons for minimized programs. 08:22:44 It's some band. 08:22:45 I'm just being silly. 08:23:02 Sgeo__: can't find comic chat. 08:23:14 anything with chat? I don't remember the exact name 08:23:21 Anyway, I seem to remember that 1.0 was just monochrome, and the 1.02 update got us EGA colors, but I guess it's also possible we just used 1.0 with the monochrome Hercules card and the 1.02 was on another computer with EGA graphics. 08:23:21 Just a telephone-calling application. 08:23:24 Yeah, Comic Chat 08:23:38 winfile! 08:23:40 Fuck yeah! 08:23:44 Managing files 'n shit! 08:23:52 "Comic Chat was released with the full downloads of Internet Explorer 3, 4, and 5, as well as in the Windows 98 and Windows 2000 distributions." 08:24:05 I just installed the Typical 3.02; thank god not the Full. 08:24:19 What, don't you want all the bells and whistles? 08:24:51 Did it come with NetMeeting? 08:25:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:25:30 * Sgeo__ remembers playing with NetMeeting 08:25:37 -!- ehird95 has joined. 08:25:47 Gah, I really need to remember that opening DOS apps breaks this thing. 08:26:01 Didn't they rename Comic Chat to "Microsoft Chat"? 08:26:23 breaks what? 08:26:30 Rugxulo: Windows. 08:26:42 how does it "break"? 08:26:43 It makes the display go all funny and I have to hard-reset it. 08:26:51 what did you try to run? 08:26:51 "Microsoft Comic Chat installed a custom font, Microsoft Comic Sans, that users could use in other applications and documents." 08:27:01 KILL COMIC CHAt 08:27:01 Rugxulo: it happens with any DOS thingy. 08:27:04 I remember the wfw3.11 "WinPopup" messaging. It's like IM, except not quite. 08:27:07 even text apps? 08:27:15 Yes. 08:27:18 That's all I have. 08:27:18 must be a bad setting in your .PIF 08:27:24 Which pif? 08:27:32 not sure, dosprmpt.pif perhaps 08:27:45 Haha, "There is also a port to linux with an extended feature called LinPopUp, which allows adding Linux computers to the set. Linpopup is an X Window graphical port of Winpopup, and a package for Debian linux. It runs over Samba. Linpopup does not have to run all the time, can run minimized, and its messages are encrypted with a strong cypher." That's among the most useless things I can imagine. 08:27:54 Rugxulo: and how would I fix it? :P 08:28:04 pifedit 08:28:12 Link. 08:28:18 it's there already 08:28:24 No it's not, I just tried. :P 08:28:29 should be 08:28:32 On 95? 08:28:35 g2g eat 08:28:36 yes 08:28:53 Start->Run "pifedit C:\windows\dosprmpt.pif". 08:28:53 Yes? 08:28:57 should work, IIRC 08:28:58 Without the quotes. 08:29:15 cannot find the file pifedit or one of its components. 08:29:46 might be a VirtualBox bug 08:29:50 Uh, no. 08:29:53 It just can't find the file. 08:29:55 That's the error it gives. :P 08:29:59 not that, the screen mess-up thingy 08:30:03 ah 08:30:07 it worked earlier, though 08:30:10 it just stopped woorking. 08:30:11 "To correct this problem, you must modify either dosprmpt.pif, command.pif or 4dos.pif, whichever is present in your Windows directory. 08:30:11 In Windows 3.1 and NT you must use pifedit.exe to modify them. In Windows 95 you can press ALT+ENTER on the PIF files or on command.com/4dos.com directly." 08:30:12 *working 08:30:15 well 08:30:23 I was using the VGA driver then 08:30:24 I think 08:30:28 so the VESA driver broke something 08:30:40 fizzie: Well I can't use anything that runs in a dos prompt. 08:30:41 Though that was just for removing the startup path, maybe not for twiddling the actual pif file contents. 08:30:43 Oh, I see 08:31:13 Alt+enter = properties. 08:31:18 Yes, I remember that much. 08:31:30 font is set to 6x12 08:31:33 Was there a special properties dialog for pif files? There might even have been. 08:31:39 memory is auto/not protected; auto; auto; uses hma; auto 08:31:43 not configured for expanded memory 08:31:54 screen is window; default; display toolbar; restore settings on startup; 08:31:56 fast rom emulation; 08:31:58 dynamic memory allocation 08:32:18 misc is allow screensaver; no quickedit or exclusive mode; don't always suspend; warn if still active; medium idle sensitivity; fast pasting; all windows shortcut keys 08:32:33 program is MS-DOS Prompt; C:\WINDOWS\command.com; no shortcut key; run in normal window; close on exit 08:32:36 turn off "window" and use full-screen if possible 08:32:43 Ah, the whole EMS/XMS mess was also hilarious. 08:32:47 I'll try, but that's kind of annoying. 08:32:49 Must lunch. 08:33:19 Rugxulo: normal window/maximized/mninimized 08:33:20 no full screen 08:33:24 *minimized 08:33:27 oh 08:33:28 in screen 08:33:31 * ehird95 ticks full-screen 08:33:39 EMS predates XMS 08:33:46 reddit.com 08:35:20 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 08:35:20 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:35:24 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95. 08:35:38 I like the part where it crashed 08:35:54 most didn't ... hence why NT is now prevalent ;-) 08:36:15 haha, that reddit.com was meant to go in opera 08:36:21 I saw the location bar, split out 08:36:22 like 08:36:22 * Rugxulo was wondering 08:36:27 each pixel had hundreds of pixels around it on my screen 08:36:32 and had the wrong colour 08:36:36 so it was sort of like a weird zooming-in 08:36:41 but i couldn't get it to change 08:36:47 still, it shows that only the graphics are effing up 08:36:58 VirtualBox isn't very stable in some ways 08:37:06 and its DOS compatibility is weaker than other VMs 08:37:24 please do suggest something better that runs on linux :) 08:37:47 dunno, haven't really tried too much on Linux 08:37:53 maybe Bochs, but it'll probably be loads slower 08:38:02 but it's been improved a lot lately 08:38:07 bochs is possibly the slowest thing that claims to emulate an x86 08:38:14 nobody really knows, though; it's never performed any instructions 08:38:24 (also, its configuration format is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain) 08:38:37 yes, I also dislike the config crapola 08:38:51 * ehird95 installs flash player 7 08:38:59 what's windows 95 without rick rolling. 08:39:03 *rickrolling 08:39:20 so you're just running Win95 for laughs? 08:39:36 yeah. i am kinda tempted to roll on over to ebay and purchase like an X20 or something 08:39:44 really old tiny thinkpad and put win95 on it :P 08:39:56 hooray, flash 7 works 08:40:03 nah, if you want something like that, get a netbook and run DOSEMU or WINE 08:40:07 (9 didn't; I don't remember if I tried 8) 08:40:13 Rugxulo: netbooks are shoddy pieces of crap :( 08:40:22 and they lack retro hardware... in its place bad hardware 08:40:22 well, so is a used laptop :-P 08:40:27 hardly! 08:40:32 thinkpads are beautiful sculptures of hardware. 08:40:39 if the used laptop actually works, then yes, good 08:40:49 but new OSes and old hardware aren't friends (and vice versa) 08:40:54 95 is a new OS?! 08:40:57 no 08:41:10 so then what's the conflict with putting 95 on an old thinkpad, that sounds logical to me :P 08:41:26 it's fine if you want to struggle with that, but old hardware often dies 08:41:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 08:41:50 eh 08:41:51 * Rugxulo bought a Lynx II (made in 1991) in 2004 or so, it only lasted a year, maybe two 08:42:03 there are original model thinkpads still working; many of them 08:42:09 thinkpads are ridiculously sturdy 08:42:14 I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just not airtight :-/ 08:42:18 yeah, i know 08:42:25 i'm just saying that a lot of people get second-hand thinkpads 08:42:27 I love retro (more than modern, too), but it's not flawless 08:42:34 and as a rule they don't really break 08:42:38 without active breakingness 08:43:02 besides 08:43:02 http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20 08:43:05 how dinky is that?! :P 08:43:15 (beefy specs for a 95 machine, too...) 08:44:25 DOS still doesn't have good (or any, really) drivers for sound, esp. non-SB 08:44:48 eh 08:44:52 i'm sure the x20 can talk soundblaster 08:44:53 prolly 08:44:57 but the processor looks okay, RAM could be better (or worse even) 08:45:01 Rugxulo: you forgot Gravis :-) 08:45:07 AC97 ain't the best 08:45:15 97 is kinda impossible on win95 08:45:18 for self-evident reasons 08:45:29 hmm 08:45:33 problems loading this youtube page 08:45:51 I think YouTube upgraded to Flash 9 not too long ago (to many peoples' chagrin) 08:46:12 I might be wrong on the version number, but they still aren't "good enough" to FOSS codecs, etc. 08:46:26 (although Google did buy some codec developer recently, maybe they'll change) 08:46:47 lots of stuff uses Flash, perhaps too much (considering its transitory nature) 08:47:58 even my Dad's Mac OS X (10.3.9) laptop's Flash was "too old" to watch some stuff 08:48:21 youtube recommended me to upgrade to flash 10 when i had 9 or 8, i forget which 08:48:21 who knows 08:48:27 but didn't force it 08:48:30 (although the flash itself didn't work) 08:48:44 Flash is a pain to many people 08:52:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:53:56 anyways, VMware is reported to work well 08:54:02 hi 08:54:04 but I've never bothered trying it 08:54:11 hey 08:54:29 boo #nethack, yay ##crawl ;-) 08:54:42 ? 08:55:09 (he's in #nethack) 08:55:21 Rugxulo: and why not? 08:55:22 * Sgeo__ is a NetHack person, kind of 08:55:25 I do play Crawl a bit too, though 08:55:37 * Rugxulo finds NetHack too hard, too confusing 08:55:49 very steep learning curve 08:56:01 Crawl's decent as a wargame, but it plays rather differently from NetHack 08:56:09 yes 08:56:11 I'd say the two are more or less independent in the strategies needed 08:56:19 yes 08:56:37 Crawl feels more arcade-like but really needs fairly good strategy 08:56:46 and lots of experience ;-) 08:57:27 no selling stuff, no need to run to altar to id stuff 08:57:44 ais523: hi, i'm using windows 95. 08:57:44 Um... if Windows 95 Plus! introduced IE 1.0, how does ehird95 have 3.0? 08:58:01 Sgeo__: 95 plus! introduced ie 1.0? WTF 08:58:03 you're on crack 08:58:07 ehird95: great 08:58:09 ie dates back to win3 days :P 08:58:13 I actually liked Win95 at the time 08:58:22 ais523: it's actually pretty good! 08:58:23 "This was the first version of Plus! and included Space Cadet Pinball, the Internet Jumpstart Kit (which was the introduction of Internet Explorer 1.0)" 08:58:25 in fact, when XP came out I preferred it to XP 08:58:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Plus!#Microsoft_Plus.21_for_Windows_95 08:58:41 Maybe Wiki's wrong? 08:58:47 still do except it isn't compatible with anything 08:58:58 ais523: my favourite part is the GUI; Explorer and its ilk 08:59:02 ais523: it's sort of... crisp 08:59:07 like every pixel was accounted for 08:59:25 ais523: don't say nothing supports it! 08:59:30 Opera 10 runs on it almost entirely perfectly 08:59:31 yes, even nowadays I style XP to look like that 08:59:37 you can't 08:59:43 win 95's explorer had different menus for instance 08:59:47 the only big deal with Win95 was the 32-bit API, the DOS integration, and Plug 'n Play 08:59:51 and i don't think you can make xp open one window for every app 09:00:04 ais523: anyway, I'm talking to you with the latest version of mIRC, while browsing the regular web on regular settings using Opera 10 09:00:09 and it's crusing 09:00:11 heh 09:00:17 ehird95: don't like Opera's IRC? 09:00:20 (Opera 10 is the latest Opera) 09:00:24 Rugxulo: I used it, but "eh" 09:00:28 Nicer to have it as a separate program. 09:00:31 I wonder if that's the reason I still compile new opera apps against Windows 3.1? 09:00:33 *seperate 09:00:39 fun trivia: mIRC was originally freeware!! 09:00:41 ais523: new opera apps? 09:00:42 after all, in theory later versions of windows can still emulate it 09:00:44 Rugxulo: Still is :P 09:00:46 umm... new windows apps 09:00:51 nobody actually registers it, do they? 09:00:52 if and when I write one, which is rare 09:00:58 *separate 09:01:02 ais523: anyway, opera 10 really does work perfectly with only a few glitches 09:01:05 the exception's if they're 32-bit, in which case I compile against Windows 95 09:01:06 well, I guess not perfectly then 09:01:13 still 09:01:13 ehird95: not with Opera, Chatzilla, ERC, etc. ;-) 09:01:17 it fails to report file sizes and image sizes 09:01:18 but Windows XP broke a lot of the compatibility stuff 09:01:19 that's the only thing I've found 09:01:32 I suppose that if I use Windows 1 features that were deprecated in 3.1, I shouldn't really expect them to work in XP 09:01:32 and I only have 64MiB of RAM in this VM! 09:01:36 (although they work fine in 95!) 09:01:45 16-bit is dead in AMD64 09:02:07 so once Windows requires (or "recommends") > 3 GB of RAM for actual use, 32-bit is DOA 09:02:18 ais523: I had to skip past a few spam ad surveys on a shady windows-drivers site to get them to give me an old version of the Microsoft IntelliPoint drivers; I don't have a Microsoft mouse, but this enables the scroll-wheel... 09:02:28 heh 09:02:33 (I needed an older version so it didn't depend on a newer IE and also to have less crap on my system) 09:02:36 I wonder what driver EULAs are like? 09:02:41 I think I may still have one of those on CD 09:02:44 (I could install the newer IE, but *eh*) 09:02:58 (At some point I might reinstall by pirating the floppies instead; that way, IE won't be mandatory.) 09:03:05 Docking Station should work on Win95 09:03:14 Sgeo__: Link me up and I'll try. 09:03:17 I once created a web page which, if opened in IE 4, would cause Windows 95 or 98 to crash hard 09:03:19 Graphics will probably be too slow to be usable, though. 09:03:22 DamnSmallLinux can run in 32 MB of RAM 09:03:26 didn't actually put it on the web, though 09:03:30 and later versions of IE fixed the bug 09:03:32 ais523: ooh, what's that file:// url or whatever? 09:03:40 con/con right? 09:03:41 Rugxulo: 95 can run with 4MiB and decently with like 16 09:03:47 yep, drive:\con\con 09:03:52 I know, but it ain't free :-( 09:03:54 C:\con\con 09:03:54 as in, c:\con\con 09:04:00 Rugxulo: sure is 09:04:01 I used a different method, though 09:04:05 (and 4 MB might be a bit optimistic ... swapping would be slooooooowwwwwwww) 09:04:06 which was hilarious on locked-down computers 09:04:07 i got it for free 09:04:10 admittedly I broke the law 09:04:11 as it ended up killing Explorer 09:04:18 well guys, I'm about to try concon 09:04:21 NICE KNOWING YOU 09:04:24 meaning: you couldn't do anything, you couldn't log out, etc 09:04:39 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 09:04:41 ehird95 just stopped responding to pings 09:05:02 why he even wanted to test that ("con/con") is beyond me 09:05:09 What caused that? 09:05:16 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:05:21 what caused what? 09:05:28 trying to refer to c:\con\con 09:05:30 con\con to have the effect that it did 09:05:34 there's a weird bug in Windows' legacy support 09:05:39 basically, DOS has a few special filenames 09:05:42 "con" is a reserved word in DOS/Win9x 09:05:47 -!- ehird95 has joined. 09:05:49 which, when used with any extensoin, send the file to a device 09:05:50 wb 09:05:50 con, aux, prn 09:06:00 (prn == lpt1, I think) 09:06:03 prn? Windows recognizes.. 09:06:06 I like how I'm using an overclocker's tool to keep my system fans running low and use less power 09:06:08 (sorry) 09:06:11 e.g. if you write to prn.exe, instead it'll go to the printer 09:06:16 ehird95: you're underclocking? 09:06:17 copy con myfile.txt 09:06:18 blah blah blah 09:06:21 ^Z (saves) 09:06:34 poor man's editor ;-) 09:07:08 ehird, ever used QBasic? 09:07:15 that exists in UNIX too, cat > myfile.txt 09:07:19 with ^D to save 09:07:22 and yes, he has 09:07:27 ehird and I were discussing QBasic a while ago 09:07:29 ais523: Nope; Windows 95 doesn't run hlt on idle cycles by default, so it always uses the CPU at near-100%. This makes the cooling system work more and uses more power. I'm using a tool called Rain, designed to cool down the system by hogging all the idle cycles with hlt and thus allow more overclocking, to make my system fans less noisy and use less power. 09:07:35 I even have a legit copy of it on this computer 09:07:56 ehird95: what interrupts the system out of the hlts? 09:07:58 This particular Rain installation is "Optimized for Intel Pentium Pro"; I had a wide range of selection... among ancient processors. 09:08:07 ais523: I think it just does a busyloop 09:08:18 ehird95, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 is the link, but the sysreqs say that it needs IE 4 for networking capabilities 09:08:28 "hlt" is the same as "jmp $" but is interrupted by ... an interrupt! ;-) 09:08:37 Sgeo__: Probably for Winsock 2 or something 09:08:39 which I have 09:08:52 w i n s i t e . c o m 09:08:52 1995 - 2009 09:08:52 CICA Windows FTP archives 09:08:52 1991 - 1994 09:08:57 Well, won't be downloading it from there any time soon. 09:09:19 o.O 09:09:30 what, winsock? 09:09:35 MS' FTP site has tons of old stuff 09:09:38 Rugxulo, Creatures Docking Station 09:09:43 See Sgeo's link. 09:09:45 winsite.com has apparently died. 09:09:53 Wasn't that thing huge? 09:10:08 Well, not huge enough for a WP article. 09:10:23 WP? 09:10:27 Wikipedia. 09:10:31 ah 09:10:32 Sgeo__: care to link me a working link? 09:11:07 Looking for one 09:11:10 Let me ask in Sine 09:11:21 what, all this for Docking Station? 09:11:25 (whatever that is) 09:11:37 All this? 09:11:40 I clicked a few links. 09:11:43 I asked for a working link. 09:11:52 You greatly overestimate how much work I have, so far, put into this endeavour. 09:12:06 what endeavour? what is the goal? 09:12:23 See if Docking Station works. 09:12:27 ais523: your explanation got cut off 09:12:34 which one? 09:12:38 ais523: you stopped talking before you explained why it fails if you refer to con or whatever as a directory :-P 09:12:43 due to topic derailing 09:12:46 oh, that's just a bug 09:12:49 Found a link, hold on 09:13:01 I don't think the case of someone using con as a directory was implemented at all 09:13:03 It's from a Creatures fansite though 09:13:03 http://creatures.treesprite.com/dockingstation_195.exe 09:13:05 "con" is a reserved word 09:13:06 so the fact you get UB there isn't surprising 09:13:14 Rugxulo: we've established that. 09:13:15 Rugxulo: yes, I've been explaining what it was reserved for 09:13:24 con == console 09:13:25 ais523: I know the story, I just meant for Sgeo__ 09:13:31 I know, Rugxulo. 09:13:36 k 09:13:41 The other links on http://creatures.treesprite.com/Upgrades5.html#A don't work 09:13:52 23 minutes to download! 09:14:01 it's 30 MB, that's why I was skeptical 09:14:06 Got anything with a link faster than a T...0? :-P 09:14:12 Rugxulo: 30MB downloads in like a minute on my connection 09:14:12 (esp. since on company sells a service that slims Win98 down to like 8 MB install) 09:14:19 assuming a non-retarded server, which we don't have in this new link 09:14:24 Rugxulo: it's a game 09:14:28 * Rugxulo didn't know if you had fast internet or not 09:14:30 graphical content, sounds... are big 09:14:40 "The Messenger Service is no longer supported from Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008." Wahh, I want my pop-up spam. :/ 09:14:42 they should've used better compression 09:14:55 8Mb/s isn't exactly "fast", what with Scandinavia and bordering areas having 50Mb/s as commonplace stuff 09:15:07 F U, Fileplanet, for wanting me to register 09:15:10 anything is fast compared to dialup 09:15:13 Rugxulo: yes, let's just wave the magical wand and get every file under 1MB 09:15:27 Sgeo__: Fileplanet is shit, you have to wait in a queue to download your file 09:15:28 no, but typically people are lazy and use horrible compression 09:15:28 It takes hours 09:15:43 9.4%; I guess this download might be fast enough. 09:15:57 " MB (K\ bytes)" --Opera, attempting to tell me how fast it's downloading 09:16:08 Not *entirely* perfect on 95... 09:16:17 (minimal Unicode, if any ...) 09:16:24 http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,17080-order,1-page,1-c,alldownloads/description.html 09:16:54 Also, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C 09:17:05 sounds like a glorified Tamagotchi 09:17:18 NanoPet or whatever 09:19:40 MB seems a pretty fast speed 09:20:33 Rugxulo: the Creatures series is nothing like either of those 09:20:52 what's your problem? you've been interestingly critical of it since the first link... 09:21:25 ais523: the block represents the number bigger than infinity. 09:22:15 ehird95: oh, to me it's a lightning bolt 09:22:22 presumably you can't see it though 09:22:45 ehird, not intentionally ... just sounds like a lot of trouble for little gain 09:22:57 strangely, it stops being a lightning bolt if I copy-and-paste it elsewhere, and turns into a control-L 09:23:13 heh, as fast as lightning 09:23:27 Rugxulo: it's clicking a few links, plus the game is amusing for a few minutes 09:23:34 it's no more pointless than any "let's see if this works" 09:24:09 * ehird95 wonders what people used for win 95 development... gotta fix that fitt's law violation... 09:24:14 It's control-L for controlled Lightning. 09:24:23 Here it's a [0012] except in a box. 09:24:27 Watcom and MSVC, presumably 09:24:33 it looked like that when I copied-and-pasted it elsewhere 09:24:38 and DJGPP, too 09:24:45 so I think it's a lightning bolt under Qt, but a box containing [0012] under GTK 09:24:50 yay, DJGPP! 09:25:04 DJGPP existed well before Cygwin (and subsequently MinGW) 09:25:08 Also that Borland thing. 09:25:13 I see [0000] 09:25:16 Not [0012] 09:25:18 oh yeah, forgot Borland 09:25:33 BC++ 55 is free 09:25:42 Digital Mars is too 09:25:43 I still have a copy of Borland C++ 4 09:25:51 which doesn't really work properly on Windows XP 09:25:56 but then it didn't really work properly on Windows 95 09:26:02 I have 4.5 too somewhere. 09:26:04 why not? 09:26:11 Stupid reason to learn Python: I didn't realize that there were free C/C++ compilers 09:26:12 DJGPP for pure-Win32 development sounds misguided. 09:26:13 * Rugxulo is curious 09:26:21 That's also why I first started to learn Java 09:26:31 ehird, no I meant for DOS/DPMI apps (although with third-party RSXNT/DJ you could do Win32) 09:26:32 The full 4.5 version came with some pc magazine. 09:26:53 Right; I'm looking to do Win32. It's gotta be simple to catch all mouseclicks in one pixel of the screen. 09:26:56 Sgeo, Python ain't so bad, it's fans LOVE it 09:27:10 OpenWatcom supports Win32 also (as host or target) 09:27:16 Rugxulo, I like Python, but the reason I became interested in it in the first place... 09:27:17 Maybe I'll just have to make an always-on-top, above-taskbar borderless window whose only pixel is transparent, then catch clicks on that. 09:27:21 That'd work, I think. 09:27:22 Visual Studio 6 still works on 95, I think; at least on 98 it does. 09:27:34 oh, and you can actually do Win32 stuff in assembly too (see FASMW) 09:27:44 Then it's just a matter of calling whatever function brings up the start menu. 09:27:59 but why did Borland 4 have issues? 09:28:07 what did it do exactly? 09:28:21 ehird95: A true Windows developer would do that by synthesizing a mouse click event that clicks around the start button. 09:29:01 Rugxulo: most commonly, it would hang in the middle of compilation for no good reason 09:29:01 and then you'd have to change bits of things around at random until it didn't 09:29:01 also, linking tended to fail on 32-bit programs 09:29:11 Oh, and of course there's always LCC-win32. That was reasonably popular too. 09:29:13 was it a DOS or Windows program? 09:29:17 fizzie: Yes, well, that'll fail if you resize the task bar to be invisible with hacks. :P 09:29:17 fizzie: I actually did that 09:29:19 LCC-win32 I've used 09:29:21 I think 09:29:22 I mean, simulate mouse clicks and keypresses 09:29:25 although I couldn't code C 09:29:25 in order to do things 09:29:30 it was the easiest way, which is saying something 09:29:31 Is it any good? 09:29:50 ehird95: lcc-win32 is one of the most common talking points over on comp.lang.c 09:29:52 I think I'll call this sanity-restoring program Fitt. I mean, it's like Dr. Watson. 09:30:03 ais523: that's only because the developer is prolific 09:30:08 Fitt sits there, waiting for your click, intercepts it, and makes good things happen! 09:30:08 basically, it's relatively good, but has some things which are nonstandard for no good reason at all 09:30:16 and has various misfeatues 09:30:18 Rugxulo: well, yes 09:30:28 it gives you a good idea of what's going on, though 09:30:44 lcc-win32 was quite easy to install, iirc 09:30:45 the impression I got was that the development of lcc-win32 was driven by the author's commercial customers 09:30:47 * Rugxulo suggests OpenWatcom, no need of stinkin' MSVCRT.DLL that most compilers (ahem, MinGW) require 09:30:53 just a click-click-click affair, and I believe it has an editor built-in 09:30:58 many of who ask for stupid things, and actually get them because they're paying 09:31:00 Rugxulo: is OpenWatcom free or will I have to pirate it? 09:31:05 free 09:31:07 link 09:31:08 open source 09:31:11 www.openwatcom.org 09:31:27 are the generated executables lean 'n mean or bloated in any way? 09:31:29 ehird95: Wikipedia says it's Fitts' law, not Fitt's law 09:31:33 I recall something about watcom+bloated being said earlier 09:31:33 it's like 75 MB, but that's with all hosts and targets 09:31:33 because the person was called Fitts 09:31:36 ais523: oops 09:31:37 not bloated, no 09:31:40 ais523: I'll call it Fitts, then 09:31:50 ais523: I saw a very recent example of registering a OCX control by sending a mouse click to start button (it even picked up the absolute screen size to position it "correctly" -- of course fails if the user moves the task bar), then "r" and "regsvr32 ..." and "return" keypress events. 09:31:51 but not as small as MinGW only because it (thankfully) rejects the buggy MSVCRT.DLL 09:32:03 I just like the idea of having Fitts himself sit inside my computer, intercepting clicks to make them do the Right Thing. 09:32:03 still smaller than DJGPP, though (leaner library) 09:32:08 no POSIX, though 09:32:22 fizzie: wait, it actually went and simulated the keypresses for Start | Run...? 09:32:35 that's ridiculous on about 3 levels 09:32:49 Isn't it, though+ 09:32:51 Rugxulo: I don't think I even have msvcrt.dll 09:32:53 * Rugxulo saw a nice sample Win32 GUI app in < 1k 09:32:56 Nope. 09:32:57 I know :-) 09:32:59 (the amusing thing, of course, is that the WinExec API call, which is roughly equivalent to system() in Unix, has been deprecated) 09:33:12 SpawnProcess, no? 09:33:34 they probably added a replacement 09:33:35 fizzie, maybe it's just an example? 09:33:36 MS also deprecated tmpnam etc. I think 09:33:39 I haven't heard of that one, it must be newer than my time 09:33:44 http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif lcc-win32 looks happily painless; type 'n click compile 'n done. 09:33:48 Rugxulo: but then, they deprecated snprintf 09:33:50 Sgeo__: It was in the internets, I don't remember the story aroudn it. 09:34:02 lots of people deprecate lots of stuff for no good reason 09:34:04 even more amusingly, their replacement has an extra argument for the size of the buffer 09:34:20 I'm not sure if anyone's ever used it with buffer size != maximum characters to print + 1 09:34:21 except as a test 09:34:46 OpenWatcom has an IDE too 09:34:48 "We would also like to thank Perforce Software for providing us with a license to use their excellent source code management system" 09:34:54 yup 09:35:07 do I want to use software made by people who think that (a) using Perforce is a good idea and (b) getting a license for Perforce for open source software is a good idea? 09:35:08 Linus himself used to use it before he wrote Git 09:35:09 gah, spam fone calls 09:35:11 wrong 09:35:13 he used BitKeeper 09:35:20 which is about 1,000,000,000,000x better 09:35:22 it's Perl that used to use perforce 09:35:24 but they changed to git 09:35:31 I seem to remember that there was some controversy (usenet- or otherwise) w.r.t. Jacob Navia, lcc-win32's developer. 09:35:37 first of all, use whatever you like, but ... Watcom existed since a long time (late 80s) 09:35:38 it's a usenet controversy 09:35:40 still a bad idea to use bitkeeper for linux, but perforce has the added benefit of being really, terribly awfully bad 09:35:47 actually, early 80s, but the 386 C/C++ is late 80s 09:36:05 Watcom's a classic, yes; but lcc-win32 is potentially simpler. 09:36:22 I don't know of any controversy offhand re: Navia, but I know he's a bit stubborn 09:36:28 simpler? I doubt it 09:36:47 aaand here comes docking station 09:37:01 Yay! 09:37:04 Rugxulo: http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif looks very simple to me, for getting the development done 09:37:08 Sgeo__: it's just the installer :P 09:37:15 Current lcc-win32 says: "Requirements: You need at least Windows 2000, the compiler and command line utiltities will work with older Windows operating systems without any trouble, but the IDE may make use of features not available in older systems and is therefor not supposed to run." 09:37:17 LCC-Win32 is only for non-commercial use, OpenWatcom is for anything (so Perforce is moot, IMHO) 09:37:27 ha! 09:37:27 I don't want to sell this :P 09:37:32 no surprise, those bastards 09:37:33 fizzie: eh, lame shit 09:37:43 Sgeo__: "Error 0 running command .\installblast.exe --temp" 09:37:45 will try to extract manually 09:37:48 lcc-win32 is shareware, sort-of; it's free to use non-commercially, you can get a commercial licence by paying 09:37:49 OpenWatcom runs on OS/2, Windows, Linux (beta), DOS :-) 09:37:59 s/runs/& natively/ 09:38:12 alright then, hook me up with an openwatcom installer link w/ IDE :P 09:38:15 i'm teh laze 09:38:23 ais523: I'm sure it's good, I've just never used it and don't see any need for it 09:38:56 Sgeo__: okay, extracting the installer 09:39:04 ah, snprintf_s no longer exists, that makes sense 09:39:12 but, sprintf_s strikes me as the most ridiculous function I've ever seen 09:39:14 http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/openwatcom/open-watcom-c-win32-1.8.exe 09:39:18 it's basically snprintf but worse 09:39:32 MS is weird 09:39:39 "The INSTALLBLAST.EXE file is linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAudodial." 09:39:46 Sgeo__: guess i'd have to upgrade IE 09:39:54 no, just use OW 09:39:58 ...?! 09:39:59 what 09:40:02 are you talking about 09:40:04 it compiles itself, for heaven's sake 09:40:11 it's bound to be "good enough" 09:40:11 wtf i'm talking about docking station you doofus 09:40:20 ah 09:40:25 :P 09:40:27 also, it has a scary line suggesting that sprintf doesn't check that the format string is valid, whereas sprintf_s does 09:40:29 ehird95: Yes, but you can replace that with Open Watcom. It's "good enough". :p 09:40:29 that's ridiculous 09:40:33 Sgeo__: or i could just fish out the WinInet.dll from IE 4's installer... 09:40:36 ehird95, huh, so the sysreqs lied about what IE4 was needed for? 09:40:48 IE4 is needed for its internet functions. 09:40:52 Presumably. 09:40:56 I don't have IE4. 09:40:57 So what is it needed for in the installer? 09:41:07 To register an account or something, I guess. 09:41:41 hmm... snprintf can be used to tell you the length of the buffer you need 09:41:46 that watcom link is strangely slow 09:41:48 how big is the exe? 09:41:50 whereas, sprintf_s causes your program to crash if it's too small 09:41:59 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:42:08 ehird95: 74M 09:42:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 09:43:51 !seen mtve 09:43:58 bah, didn't think that'd work 09:44:10 ow, the blue background of the openwatcom installer 09:44:11 ow ow ow my EYES 09:44:15 heh 09:45:03 alright, installing into C:\WATCOM 09:45:58 "Setup needs to modify AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS." 09:46:12 quite worrying, considering both were obsolete by windows 95 09:46:14 no, just do it manually 09:46:23 well, my autoexec is empty and i have no config.sys, so it can't hurt 09:46:26 Win95 = MS-DOS 7.0 + Win 4.0 09:46:39 it still boots as DOS 09:46:43 it's just more hidden (barely) 09:46:44 config.sys is useless, though, because everything has windows drivers :P 09:46:50 not at the time 09:46:54 autoexec is useless because, well, not much adds to the PATH I guess 09:46:55 they still supported DOS drivers 09:46:59 Rugxulo: annoyances.org agrees with me 09:47:03 yes, that's true 09:47:06 but rare is the device with only DOS drivers 09:47:16 and such a device is indeed deprecated, so to speak 09:47:17 not that rare, in 1995 at least 09:47:37 we still have drivers in 2009 (UIDE) ;-) 09:48:13 anyways, autoexec.bat is called by the shell (command.com) 09:48:27 P.S. 4DOS is free now, you should grab it 09:48:41 I know what autoexec is 09:48:42 FreeDOS exists 09:48:44 as does DOSBox 09:48:47 ... 09:48:49 obviously :-) 09:48:50 totally irrelevant 09:48:53 why did you mention that 09:48:53 heh 09:48:56 4DOS is a command shell for windows :P 09:48:58 he is a bit stubborn 09:49:02 who is 09:49:03 me? 09:49:10 4DOS works very well under Win9x 09:49:17 I meant 09:49:19 totally irrelevant @ ais523 09:49:20 4NT (or whatever it's called now) is for later versions 09:49:23 I think I had some ndis2-drivers-only network card at some point. 09:49:23 for mentioning freedos and dosbox 09:49:23 yes 09:49:29 I know 09:49:37 the single-most annoying feature of windows 9x is that your mouse movement becomes choppy and keys are dropped if your CPU is being used a lot 09:49:38 he's just trying to help you ;-) 09:49:44 and even rendering a web page does that to 95... 09:49:58 Vista loses keys too, so nothing's perfect 09:50:07 ehird95, that's not true of all Windows OSes? 09:50:18 probably due to preemptive vs. cooperative 09:50:22 You tried to access the address http://www.jpsoft.com/, which is currently unavailable. Please make sure that the Web address (URL) is correctly spelled and punctuated, then try reloading the page. 09:50:34 Sgeo__: works fine in XP, so probably in NT 4.0 up 09:50:40 maybe starting in 2000, dunno 09:50:44 4dos.zzl.org 09:50:48 i mean really choppy 09:50:49 ehird95, actually, it doesn't work fine in XP for me 09:50:52 as in start rendering a page, can't move the mouse 09:50:54 at all 09:50:56 for seconds 09:51:07 might be a VM bug 09:51:13 believe it or not, VMs aren't perfect 09:51:20 The address you have entered has not been activated. 09:51:38 http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/user/4dos/ 09:52:20 * ais523 reads http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html 09:52:25 I disagree with the question 3 bonus 09:52:34 asktog is wonderful 09:52:45 with a right-handed mouse, I find hitting the bottom-right corner of the screen really hard as the mouse keeps getting stuck against my hand 09:52:52 as in, I can't actually move in that direction far enough 09:53:08 ais523: fitts' law sort of assumes you're not putting your mouse on a cliff with your hand bent over backwards 09:53:17 I know that's an exaggeration, but it concerns a mouse held reasonably, on a decent surface 09:53:23 also, I thought the answer "the pixel under the cursor" couldn't be given because you didn't know exactly where the cursor was 09:53:35 ehird95: I rest my wrist on the table when using a mouse 09:53:45 I have to move it in order to be able to move it a long distance down and right 09:53:48 but it's good for other directions 09:54:28 Rugxulo: do I need 4dos800 or 4dos800patches? 09:54:35 just 4dos800.zip 09:54:49 also, this is kind of pointless; I can't use the ms dos window, remember? 09:54:59 oops ;-) 09:55:23 ehird95: what goes wrong when you try? 09:55:40 screen goes insane, hard reset needed (probably a VirtualBox bug) 09:56:03 only happens with vesa driver, not vga, iirc 09:56:13 (the vesa driver is a third-party thingamajic) 09:56:18 *thinigamajig 09:56:54 if anyone knows any vesa drivers for windows that support high resolutions (like 1280x1024), that'd be great :P 09:57:11 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 09:57:32 any VESA should support that, probably just another buggy implementation :-/ 09:57:40 I didn't know 09:57:44 The actual VESA driver is solid 09:57:50 and can support such high resolutions 09:58:03 but it probably triggers a vbox bug. 09:58:06 Maybe you should port the VirtualBox guest additions to the 9x series, now that you have the Watcom there and all. 09:58:13 http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm 09:58:17 like I said, VBox has various bugs (esp. for older 16-bit-ish OSes) 09:58:23 * Sgeo__ needs to go to sleep a few hours ago 09:58:25 fizzie: Good idea. I'll do that right after I stick my head in a blender :P 09:58:32 Rugxulo: no alternative for me as far as I can tell 09:58:38 grr 09:58:40 open watcom adds two menus 09:58:44 one for programs, one for help 09:58:55 you can rearrange / edit those 09:58:59 I wouldn't worry about it though 09:59:00 wow that's a lot of menu items 09:59:11 (actually, you could've just "unzipped" the .EXE as it's just a sfx) 09:59:24 ok, this IDE is *seriously* 16-bit 09:59:29 heh, yes, but it works 09:59:37 right down to using that win 3 font 09:59:41 Good night 09:59:44 nite 09:59:48 -!- Sgeo__ has quit ("Leaving"). 10:00:43 anyone know any vesa drivers for windows? 10:00:58 Bear Windows didn't have one? 10:02:05 ehird95: Did you try the "obsolete" "MANUAL" VirtualBox-specific build of that vbe9x you linked to? 10:02:13 Rugxulo: That's what I'm using... 10:02:37 fizzie: The VirtualBox forums guide to 9x says that the VBox-specific one actually "has issues". 10:02:51 I might, though, if there's no other vesa drivers for 9x. 10:03:35 Scitech Display Doctor might have had some video-drivery things in the latest releases, though I'm not sure whether it overlapped at all with 9x. 10:03:39 isn't there a QEMU for Mac (called "Q" or something)? 10:03:58 maybe it works better (since VirtualBox is just a heavily-modified QEMU with a GUI) 10:04:15 VESA is part of the BIOS, not part of the OS 10:04:25 DOS can use VESA 10:04:41 and I think you mean Univbe 10:05:13 Rugxulo: It was renamed Scitech Display Doctor, and I thought it acquired some display-drivery things later; it used to be just "provide the VESA bios functions for non-vesa-supporting cards" when it was called univbe. 10:05:38 Or that's the feeling I got; I didn't really follow the development of it later. 10:05:44 ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/graph/uvbe51a.zip 10:05:59 I don't know, I think SDD had Univbe in it, not sure 10:06:21 "In version 5.2, it was renamed to Scitech Display Doctor. However, UniVBE remained to be the name used for the actual driver." 10:06:48 "Version 6.5 introduced the ability to use Scitech Display Doctor as wrapper video driver." I think that's what I was thinking about, though I'm not quite sure what a "wrapper video driver" exactly is. 10:07:24 qemu is so slow. 10:07:25 Q is just a gui 10:07:40 dunno, I guess to make Windows use a higher-level API to behind the scenes access BIOS interrupts 10:07:41 "SciTech Display Doctor includes the only universal Windows 95 display driver. SciTech Display Doctor is compatible with over 250different graphics chips. If you have ever struggled with display drivers or experienced problems like slow display speeds or system crashes, SciTech Display Doctor is the solution you need." 10:07:44 I've heard of Scitech Display Doctor in relation to this stuff, I think. 10:07:59 QEMU is indeed slow ... does KQemu not work on Mac OS X? 10:08:14 I'm using Ubuntu. 10:08:22 right right 10:08:23 And I guess it might, but still. I have this mental image of QEMU = dog slow. 10:08:27 but on a iMac (confusing) 10:08:36 it's pretty slow, yes 10:08:43 VBox uses some JIT stuff to make it lots faster 10:08:52 and VT-X helps even more 10:08:53 You can find sdd6.53 in http://download.chip.eu/en/SciTech-Display-Doctor-6.53_35301.html# -- it seems to do the download without registration there if you just click enough. 10:08:56 iMacs are x86 machines, you know. 10:09:00 They just use EFI instead of BIOS. 10:09:08 yes, I know 10:09:25 just not firsthand 10:10:08 "For better graphic [in VirtualBox] in WinDOS you can install scitech display doctor 7." Well, someone suggests that, anyway. 10:10:22 Aight then. 10:10:52 I'ma download it with ma meggabits. 10:10:58 I'm not sure if 6.53 works as well; it was legally available from their FTP at some point, which might not have been the case with 7. 10:11:17 their FTP site seems kaput (according to Wikipedia and my own attempt just now) 10:11:18 I'm sure you could find 7 too from the interwebs, though. 10:11:33 I think 5.x worked better with older cards 10:11:34 http://majorgeeks.com/SciTech_Display_Doctor_d382.html How about a BETA?!!!!1111 10:11:36 circa Win95 era 10:11:45 This card is going to show up as generic to anything. 10:11:54 Since it's just VirtualBox's fake card. 10:12:06 Yes, but I'm not sure 5.x had the Win95 video driver parts; 6.53 should have them, maybe. 10:12:12 good point 10:13:01 "Bing cashback" ... man they push too hard :-P 10:13:17 * Rugxulo is waiting for the day, real soon now, when XBox 360 is "obsolete" 10:13:26 what's next? the xbox 719? 10:13:33 Watcom's dialog editor seems quite nice for designing, say, an option thingy. 10:13:41 I wonder if I can be bothered to combine those two menus. 10:13:51 it was all a marketing gimmick to offset dumb customers saying "wow, PS3 sounds better than Xbox2" (allegedly) 10:13:58 ais523: The xbox 129600, maybe. 10:14:08 XBox++ ;-) 10:14:14 XBoxXP 10:14:24 Gah, I hate Windows installers that set their own backdrop and hide everything else. 10:14:30 YBox. 10:14:33 XBox4 (when it's really XBox 3.1) 10:14:36 "We've jumped one extra-major version". 10:14:52 Though maybe the "why box" doesn't sound so good. 10:14:52 XBobx 10:15:00 Lawl, it used the internet to CHECK FOR AN UPDATE in the installer; ran into a 320 moved temporarily, probably squatted. 10:15:00 Still, if Nintendo can run with Wii... 10:15:10 yeah, Wii was pretty bad 10:15:25 * Rugxulo remembers all the perverted jokes for days after that ... 10:15:33 The power glove, it's so bad. (I get that connotation every time someone says "bad".) 10:15:42 hey fizzie 10:15:45 Robby the Robot! 10:15:53 it will operate for 21 days and give a reminder mesage for 10 seconds each time my computer boots 10:15:56 although hitting a key will skip that 10:15:57 ehird95: how did it react? 10:15:57 Since the context was "Nintendo", it sounded appropriate this time. 10:15:57 SNES lightgun! SNES mouse! 10:16:10 ehird95: 10:16:11 SciTech Display Doctor 6.53 10:16:11 Supports: Windows and DOS. 10:16:11 Free Version Code 10:16:12 Reg Code: 00000-173D626E-02002 10:16:12 Full Name: 6.x Free Edition 10:16:20 That was my next question! 10:16:21 :D 10:16:21 incidentally, how did the limited-time shareware programs react to being uninstalled and reinstalled? 10:16:38 *ais523 has a heart attack from fizzie's flagrant violation of the law* 10:16:47 ais523: they buried it in the registry or sth 10:16:48 ehird95: That's directly from Scitech, you know. 10:16:51 beh 10:17:05 yeah, they don't sell it anymore 10:17:07 surely pirates would just write a registry-diffing program, or something? 10:17:14 And yes, quite many did try to leave all kinds of droppings around the file system and registry. 10:17:21 pirates will (and do) crack anything and everything 10:17:36 yes, I know it's pointless trying to stop it 10:17:39 even (rarely) for actually good reasons ;-) 10:17:56 IMO it's pointless putting DRM on things in the first place, because it only hurts legit users 10:18:05 after all, pirates can run it whatever you do... 10:18:06 If you don't consider copyright legitimate, then piracy is the obvious thing to do if you're bored 10:18:14 well, if you have the time, rather 10:18:18 and by piracy i meant cracking 10:18:26 well, yes 10:18:30 the two go together 10:18:35 Most of those actual "keep track of registry and disk changes for cleaning up after lazy uninstallers" have a side effect of accidentally breaking that "DRM". 10:18:37 we're spoiled with free software nowadays, though 10:18:38 normally 10:18:52 ais523: not really 10:19:03 the easiest way to get a pirated application circulating is to buy it and distribute the license key 10:19:08 I'm not sure how common that is, though 10:19:09 fizzie: my favoured method for breaking that sort of DRM is to use Wine 10:19:11 ehird95: Are you saying no just to be negative? 10:19:12 Anyway, reboot time 10:19:24 -!- ehird95 has quit. 10:19:27 "and how does that make you feel?" 10:19:36 "and you think shut up you suck because of why?" 10:20:00 anybody remember Dr. Sbaitso? ;-) 10:21:00 "Is it because of the people you hang around with that you say legally imposed culture reduction is cabbage brained?" (courtesy of M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead) 10:21:35 heh, they removed yow.lines in latest versions due to copyright (ironically) 10:22:01 yeah, lots of Zippy the Pinhead sales out there (not) 10:22:59 " ehird95: Areware pround with that was all the people younded appropriate this timposed culturee Edit was all the perverted distribute the law*" (courtesy of copy-paste and M-x dissociated-press). 10:23:23 "pround" is a nice word, it should have a meaning. 10:23:34 "A combination of the english words "Proud" and "Fond". Often used when a sense of joyous ecstacy overcomes your ability to comprehend spacing between words resulting the the binding the the afformentioned base words." 10:23:36 Oh, it has. 10:23:54 English is goofy 10:24:12 Well, that was from the urban dictionary, so maybe it's not all that established. 10:24:39 Quite a lot of the results seem to be just misspellings of proud. 10:25:23 heh, yeah, I wouldn't trust Urban Dictionary 10:25:32 * Rugxulo never heard of "pround", at least 10:25:32 -!- ehird95 has joined. 10:25:46 who knows, though, maybe Shakespeare used it 10:25:50 no supported vga chip found, waah, i'm a retarded driver of retardedness 10:25:53 and my name is sswhatever 10:26:20 manual override time 10:26:36 eh 10:26:39 it has a list of chips and shit 10:26:42 this isn't generic vesa 10:26:44 this is specific vesa 10:28:17 :/ 10:29:10 VESA itself is the standard, but all the behind-the-scenes stuff is non-standard 10:29:44 the bearwindows stuff works mostly :P 10:30:13 Yes, UniVBE originally was written to provide standards-compatible VESA support for specific video cards. I really did think SDD, when they added the "use directly as a Win9x driver", also added the option to use that driver as a generic VESA thing. 10:30:49 Well, it doesn't work. 10:30:53 anyone know how to remove a windows control panel btw? 10:31:21 back in Windows 3.1 I think you could just delete the file from the directory and it would work 10:31:27 I have no idea if that still works, nor where the directory is 10:31:33 remove what exactly? the process? file? menu? 10:31:36 it. 10:31:37 the panel. 10:31:39 it's non-standard. 10:31:41 not windows. 10:31:42 someone installed it. 10:32:00 panel under Control Panel? 10:32:14 yes 10:32:23 no uninstaller? 10:32:42 nope. 10:32:54 then no easy way (that I know of) 10:33:00 Weren't those just .cpl files? Or was that win3.1? 10:33:20 Maybe there was some sort of registry registration for them. 10:33:29 right you are 10:33:31 I'm sure you can find some tweakery programs from the interwebs to do it. 10:33:52 Qemu emulates three different video cards -- "Cirrus Logic GD5446 Video card. All Windows versions starting from Windows 95 should recognize and use this graphic card" by default, alternatively "Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions" (for winxp vesa-2 driver) or "VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter" -- it's a bit funny that virtualbox does only their own. 10:33:52 just leave it, it's not hurting anything is it? 10:34:19 yes it is, it's some software licensing pay-trial-extort bullshit and I want it gone... 10:34:23 Rugxulo: if you knew ehird, you wouldn't say that 10:34:25 annyway, reboot time 10:34:30 *anyway 10:34:42 -!- ehird95 has quit. 10:35:14 all this just to run Creatures whatever? 10:35:41 * Rugxulo ain't knocking it, just seems a bit painful 10:37:00 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:37:40 -!- ehird95 has joined. 10:37:48 right, back to bearwindows. 10:37:53 ehird95: I think TweakUI actually has a control-panel-icon-destroyomator. 10:38:30 i'll install tweakui. 10:38:31 brb. 10:38:41 Just removing the .cpl file might still work, that's mentioned on one page. 10:40:33 sounds risky 10:40:43 I'm not sure it was ever meant to be uninstalled 10:41:59 http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000136.htm says you can, though. 10:43:00 Of course it removes just the control panel tab, nothing else the program might've installed. 10:53:54 * Rugxulo goes to sleep now 10:53:58 have fun with Win95 10:53:59 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 11:05:47 you should be able to install 95 and then replace the kernel with nt 4, right 11:05:49 s/$/?/ 11:06:57 Maybe in the abstract sense of "should in a perfect world". 11:07:24 I put the whole M-x dissociated-press result to pastebin, since there were some pretty funny bits in it: http://pastebin.com/m40fba1a0 11:07:26 with hacking 11:07:54 "negatime shareware" sounds very hi-tech, for example. 11:08:16 "xp and later versions" wrt tweakui 11:08:19 sigh 11:08:53 Huh? You obviously want the PowerToys'95 set, incl. TweakUI. 11:09:19 click the article 11:09:20 read 11:09:32 Microsoft Windows XP and later revisions of Windows users can easily enable and remove Control Panel icons with the TweakUI program. 11:09:56 Ah. Well, just removes the .cpl, it's listed on that page too. 11:12:03 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 11:12:03 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:12:12 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95. 11:13:15 According to screenshots tweakui 1.33 (which is 9x still) does have a "control panel" tab, but I can't find a screenshot of the contents of the tab, so I don't know what it can do. 11:13:32 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:13:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:14:08 command prompts still fail 11:14:14 anyone know about any _generic_ windows vesa driver? 11:14:49 I'm not sure if there is one 11:14:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:16:28 there is 11:16:31 I'm using one right now 11:16:37 usability fail: Evolution changes its icon when I switch between inbox and calendar modes 11:16:38 http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm 11:16:46 ais523: Evolution is one gigantic usability fail 11:16:59 really? it's the most just-works of any email client I've ever seen 11:17:13 Thunderbird feels clunky after using it, Outlook feels clunky regardless of what else I've been using 11:17:22 It's like Outlook, except more enterprisey and more "unique" (i.e. inconsistent with everything else) 11:17:46 hmm... maybe I prefer the Evolution way of doing things, then 11:17:58 if everything else does the same thing and Evolution does something different, that would explain a lot 11:18:18 Evolution is, at least, very un-GNOME I'm sure you can agree. 11:18:31 For one, it has like 5 applications in one (calendar, tasks, email, ...) 11:18:40 For two, its preferences pane is fucking mammoth! 11:18:41 it's kind-of weird 11:18:47 this system feels like it was built around Evolution 11:18:49 For three, its UI is complicated 11:18:52 as opposed to Evolution being added into it 11:18:59 For four, it doesn't really feel native 11:19:00 And yet 11:19:00 * ais523 loads apport 11:19:03 I've found a crashbug 11:19:03 Evolution is part of GNOME 11:19:11 It's kinda shitty. 11:19:16 ehird95: most of the things in the DE seem to integrate with it 11:19:23 Oh, they talk together, sure. 11:19:28 But Evolution itself does not feel GNOME. 11:19:36 you're right, it doesn't 11:19:40 it doesn't feel KDE either, though 11:19:43 That's why I dislike people calling Evolution integrated; it's not integrated in the way you really feel. 11:19:44 it's something of its own 11:19:58 it's GNOME, uncanny valley, turn left at preferences street 11:20:14 hmm... Firefox would be a good comparison 11:20:22 that isn't particularly gnomish either, and has lots of preferences 11:20:48 Gnomish mines. 11:21:08 also, they're both very good at persistency 11:21:12 which is one of Gnome's strong points 11:21:20 (ironically, Firefox > Evolution at persistency) 11:22:41 yay, it had already been reported 11:22:51 and fixed in karmic, wontfix in jaunty-proposed 11:22:59 -!- linf has joined. 11:23:11 hi lament 11:23:18 eeeeeeeee 11:23:19 (I'm guessing, don't know for certain...) 11:23:52 HELLO WORLD :-D 11:24:07 but out of all the Russian people called Nikita, one of them is a lot more likely to come to this channel than the others 11:25:23 ais523: pochemu? 11:25:29 ? 11:26:02 pochemu - why 11:26:06 :) 11:26:33 just based on what's happened in the past 11:26:35 I'm extrapolating 11:26:39 I'll let you learn English, and I'll Russian 11:26:41 ;-) 11:27:15 you psychic? 11:27:57 no, just relying on whois data 11:28:16 hahhahaha 11:28:20 when I see an unusual nick in here, I try to work out if it's someone new, or otherwise, who it is 11:29:19 My nickname is unusual? 11:29:52 well, not usually in this channel 11:31:02 -!- ehird95_ has joined. 11:31:06 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird. 11:31:17 and that, ais523, is why i want a new graphics driver :P 11:31:30 it crashed? 11:32:04 when a dos program takes focus 11:32:07 well 11:32:08 when it starts 11:32:12 graphics go all weird 11:32:13 have to reest 11:32:14 reset 11:32:16 might be virtualbox bug 11:32:19 but it still occurs 11:32:20 hi linf 11:32:34 * ehird waits for ehird95 to die 11:33:34 the perils of unregistered nicks 11:34:07 i live dangerously, god damn 11:34:08 ehird: privet =))) 11:34:33 all of a sudden the minimize/maximize animations are really slow... 11:34:59 ais523: my info says that I am Nikita? 11:35:12 yes, it's your username 11:35:16 as opposed to your nick, which is linf 11:35:30 IRC usernames are more or less irrelevant nowadays, tbg 11:35:31 *tbh 11:35:56 And your real name is "purple"; coincidentally, x-chat's rainbow-colors-for-nicks thing has allocated a reasonably purple color for the nick, too. 11:36:25 ais523: if not written, that I am Nikita, how do you know that I am Nikita? 11:36:38 well, you could be lying 11:36:45 but your client /thinks/ you are Nikita, somewhere 11:37:21 My client - a psychic =))) 11:37:35 it could be your username on your own computer 11:37:40 that's a common way to determine what username to use on IRC 11:37:53 and people often use their real name for that 11:37:54 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:38:22 So who wants to have a friend in Russia? For me, it is important to better learn English 11:39:01 I do not hide ... 11:39:12 -!- ehird95 has joined. 11:39:18 ais523: what is your name? 11:39:31 according to my whois data, it's hidden 11:39:39 and presumably I should trust it on that 11:39:55 I mean, forgetting who I was would be embarassing... 11:40:39 I did not understand nothing ... I do not know very well English 11:40:58 there's a channel ##english on Freenode to help people learn English 11:41:48 I are having many english speakings thanking much 11:41:49 but I want to talk on the topic and teach the esoteric 11:42:31 linf: we're not about esoterica 11:42:36 just esoteric programming languages 11:42:41 heh 11:43:03 =(( 11:43:16 I PUT ON MY WIZARD ROBE AND HAT 11:43:17 freenode is mostly about technology 11:43:25 sorry. 11:43:28 Russian music what do you know? 11:43:34 Hooks for feet... Eyes... Made of wood! 11:43:37 :-[ 11:43:41 Russian music, now there's a topic. 11:43:51 That's not esoterica nor esolangs. Has anyone come in here for russian music before? 11:44:22 andestend 11:44:39 not understand 11:44:42 :-[ 11:44:42 linf: this isn't the channel for you. sorry 11:44:45 :( 11:45:01 ais523: You mean (this is obviously not my real name) is not actually your real name? "What." 11:45:37 sad... Why someone does not like Russian =((( 11:46:42 we didn't actually say that. 11:47:43 I just want interesting international communication! :-[ 11:51:10 -!- ehird95 has changed nick to jioretjoi5. 11:52:33 -!- jioretjoi5 has changed nick to ehird95. 11:52:45 hey, i just realised my name is appropriate in more ways than one 11:53:08 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:54:04 0.01 points for recognizing why 11:57:13 Because you have windows 95? 11:57:17 You are 95 years old? 11:57:22 You have 95 penises? 11:57:31 You are 95% complete? 11:58:27 hmm... were you born in 1995? 11:59:10 yes 11:59:15 0.01 points to you! 11:59:33 Slereah_: first one is "am using" which was the original intention 12:00:13 Aww, I didn't have time for my guess: you create a similar combustion results than a 95 % iso-octane / 5 % heptane fuel mixture. 12:00:27 Yes! 12:00:50 Windows 95 should have a mouse-updater in the kernel so that you never have a laggy mouse. :P 12:02:16 grr... there really needs to be something like task manager in 2000 12:02:22 Windows 95 =-O 12:02:24 so that you can see what processes are making your system lag 12:02:25 oh, for a moment I thought you meant mouse driver updates in the kernel 12:02:31 ais523: :D 12:02:35 linf: yep 12:02:46 >:o 12:02:57 I use linux 12:03:00 me too. 12:03:47 ehird95: i love you frend 12:03:50 :-[ 12:04:39 fungot: And which OS do you use? 12:04:40 fizzie: i ask fnord about africa) is an artifact of a particular form? i lack unicode terminals. :) you guys always have something to match ( a b)) using curried terms. how might you write the rest of her sf is good, i surely have *that* ;p 12:05:03 i'm happy :-[ 12:05:11 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:06:06 ugh, the idea of trying to learn English from fungot has just crossed my mind 12:06:07 ais523: fizzie'll be there to make it print out _every_ replacement operation, and then some 12:06:23 wow, that was... really in-context, and made sense 12:06:28 :D 12:06:30 and was even a plausible reply to my comment 12:06:35 it only made some sort of sense, mind 12:06:38 that's one of the best fungot responses ever 12:06:38 ais523: i'll hang around here. been poking through the wiki 12:06:48 oh dear 12:06:55 ^style 12:06:56 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 12:06:57 he might get ideas about rewriting himself... 12:06:58 ааааааааааааааааааааааааааааааа 12:07:04 don't do that fungot, mmkay? 12:07:06 ehird95: it will be too much. i just got linked to " t" without the leading dot as one of the dirs in load-path, after adding an autoload and the filename association, i got all excited about going to sleep 12:07:26 yeah, messing with drugs like that can mess you up, who gets excited about sleeping? 12:07:28 stay clean fungot! 12:07:28 ehird95: that's right. it was in this channel 12:07:39 at least you could have done it in private... 12:07:47 Maybe I should start selling the code to various schools as a tool for learning English. 12:07:48 ais523: are we sure fungot hasn't actually spontaneously emerged as a strong AI? 12:07:49 ehird95: i don't even want to know me!!! so that will probably work better 12:07:49 why isn't HackEgo here? I want to qdb that fungot comment... 12:07:49 ais523: that method shouldn't be underestimated though, just sign on and listen to some. i just wanted to ping ehird, as i said 12:08:22 :D 12:08:29 how is it being topical! 12:08:47 "i don't even want to know me!!!" is a good quote too, but potentially verbatim 12:09:04 It is being done using the magic of YOUR BRAIN, which can make topical out of just about anything. 12:09:10 yes 12:09:17 sometimes is more topical than other times 12:10:29 ais523: well, it referred to rewriting itself in another language as too much and described a horrific linker accident where, after adding an entry to the linker autoload path and setting up a file association its brain chemistry made it excited about going to sleep, and then mentioned that it was in this chnnel. 12:10:30 but still I love Madonna 12:10:32 :-D 12:10:38 that's remarkably coherent, even for fungot :P 12:10:39 ehird95: you should have called it ++c c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em), when a context of an interpreter 12:10:51 that's a really bad name, fungot. 12:10:52 ehird95: when tiny-clos allocates a generic function, it's a fnord 12:11:08 * ehird95 resists the urge to fork tiny-clos and rewrite it to call them fnords 12:11:10 you're right, that's an /incredibly/ bad name 12:11:14 anyone want to add it to esolang/ 12:11:25 I can't even tell what the name is 12:11:34 ++cc c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em)? 12:11:34 neither can I 12:11:38 *++c 12:11:42 that was my first guess 12:11:43 ++c c-- --c? 12:11:45 who knows 12:11:59 I should fix the whitespacing, though. 12:12:02 fungot's Scheme is so very stylistic; he loves putting that space after the opening paren. 12:12:03 ehird95: is on the infinite machine; the same solution. 12:12:06 fizzie: snap! 12:12:16 fungot: sweet, I love infinity machines! 12:12:16 ehird95: and i'll do the next excersise... thx for the ref :) thanks 12:12:25 ...but I want to use it, fungot :| 12:12:44 la la la 12:12:44 hmph. 12:13:45 Next time I need a name for a project, I'll just go http://pastebin.com/m20f7a77c 12:14:14 "++c, tail of the stream maker" has a nice ring to it. 12:14:20 allocates one (bad) is a silly name. 12:14:32 [[you should have called it sins: sins is not scheme at all is useful. each implementation does things slightly differently the latter is nonstandard, but most implementations have "real" programming language.]] 12:14:37 needs esolang wikiing 12:14:38 stat 12:15:11 "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would act like minion does in lisp it does wiki lookups" :D 12:15:33 "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would run infinitely slowly or so. was there ever a gigantic hoax in computer science?" yes, infinitely slow pink fluffy ponies 12:17:41 It's a bit too fixated on pink fluffy ponies (and whose fault is that, eh?) and that silly "++c c-- --c" name. 12:21:29 So. 12:21:51 I'd better learn how to work the Open Watcom IDE. 12:22:08 ais523: have you ever used it? you seem like the type to 12:22:25 I haven't 12:22:30 I had heard of it, but no more 12:22:35 I /am/ probably the type to, just haven't 12:22:57 It's quite 16-bit. 12:23:02 In feel, that is. 12:23:09 I haven't yet managed to create and edit a file in a project... 12:24:21 Another fungot gem: "believes in santa, or possibly codepoints." 12:24:21 fizzie: i noticed." i was trying to use lambda yet? it's s'posed to 12:24:38 Yes, often when kids learn santa isn't real, they start to believe in codepoints instead. 12:24:57 ais523: the programs have a greyed out help menu item, and a separate top-level start menu folder for just the help books... 12:25:00 (in windows help format) 12:25:10 which windows help format? 12:25:15 there are at least 3 12:25:29 but as we're talking windows 95, it'll either be winhelp (or winhlp32), or chm 12:26:43 winhlp32, I believe 12:26:55 it's formatted, but not htmlcrap 12:27:05 isn't chm a 98 thing? 12:27:46 oh, could be 12:28:46 August 1997 HTML Help 1.0 (HH 1.0) was released with Internet Explorer 4. 12:28:46 February 1998 HTML Help 1.1a shipped with Windows 98. 12:28:49 Yes, a bit newer. 12:29:20 older, you mean 12:29:21 than 98 12:29:37 Well, yes. A bit newer than your '95. 12:30:31 -!- linf has left (?). 12:30:54 What are they doing nowadays? Wikipedia speaks about something called "Microsoft Help 2" with .hxs files, and an upcoming "Microsoft Help 3" where a .mshc file is just a renamed zip with XHTML 1.x and images/other-data inside. 12:30:54 two years newer. 12:31:07 Just whatever they had in XP. 12:31:18 With the question/answer checkboxes "wizard" troubleshooters; all useless. 12:32:35 "In 2008 Microsoft relented and released a download of WinHlp32.exe for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607". I like the use of the word "relent" there. 12:33:49 they should just use Info format 12:35:34 what's wrong with this channel? I say something obviously ridiculous and nobody responds... 12:36:33 well, I had mIRC minimized to tray and hadn't hit it for a few minutes 12:37:15 I got lost in the Texinfo reference manual. :p 12:38:16 I haven't ever seen a .hxs file 12:38:47 even .chm seems to be loosing on the ebookz market to pdf. 12:40:03 .hxs files are used in the modern (.NET and later) Visual Studio help system. 12:40:16 They look quite messy, though it might be just that the help system is so large. 12:40:31 ok, so i stumbled upon them without knowing. 12:40:50 "Microsoft Help 2.x is the help engine used in Microsoft Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008 and Office 2007." 12:41:07 well, the online MSDN also looks messy, I guess thats mostly a Microsoft-thing 12:41:53 Microsoft has a talent for hiding good documentation in the most awkward places. 12:44:31 MSDN also has a talent for self-contradiction 12:44:41 because searching it keeps finding the wrong version of the API, or whatever 12:51:39 -!- ehird has joined. 12:51:50 huh. 12:54:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:59:09 . 12:59:32 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:00:38 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird95. 13:02:24 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:02:49 Says something about the priorities of people: things have started to collect in the "fremantle-extras" Maemo 5 repository; discounting supporting libraries and such, there are 6 real packages; and one of them is the robotfindskitten game. 13:03:54 Obviously http://rfk.garage.maemo.org/ is what really needs to be there before the official device launch. 13:05:38 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 13:10:16 pixels of x 13:10:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:15:02 yay, I've added Fitts.c to the project C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.wpj 13:15:10 and am now editing C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.c in the Wacom editor 13:22:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:22:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:33:34 how's your internet today, internet folk 14:33:55 Yellow and tangy. 14:34:07 interesting 14:34:28 green and limy 14:34:47 have i mentioned i hate calculus 14:35:31 of course, this time i hate it because integration is too hard, i suppose it's usually the other way around 14:36:48 integration is one of those things that's impossible in general 14:36:50 like comparing functions 14:37:19 i know; that's sort of the kind of stuff i know. 14:38:25 "The other way around", i.e. integration is too hard because you hate calculus? 14:38:46 anyway it's an iterated integral, integrating by either variable using the wolfram thingie gives an incomprehensible megaexpression 14:39:19 fizzie: almost; usually because it's too easy 14:39:50 so "for the opposite reason" or something to that bend might've been more diple. 14:39:55 I can well imagine oklopol's hatred of something making it more difficult 14:40:00 as you can't then ask oklopol for help 14:40:09 anyway, it seems that we have an esolang name language clash 14:40:18 as Keymaker created an esolang also called Clue 14:40:26 omg 14:40:43 let's hope i keep this speed up at uni so i don't have time for esolangs :P 14:41:01 Either one of you could maybe add a diacritic somewhere. 14:41:27 cL 14:41:43 wait that' looks like a c implementation of lua 14:41:47 Clue̫ 14:41:47 *that 14:41:53 clue (`) 14:42:04 I don't see why we can't have two unrelated esolangs with exactly the same name 14:42:08 (It's an "e" with a combining inverted double arch below.) 14:42:11 then we can have Clue (disambiguation) 14:42:12 ais523: good point :D 14:42:30 Esolang needs a dab page, it's feeling kind-of lonely without one 14:43:09 ais523: Having two languages with identical names will cause the Universe algorithm to become confusing, and it might accidentally merge the languages (and their authors) into a single entity. 14:43:24 s/confusing/confused/; it is confusing already. 14:44:02 merging oklopol and Keymaker together could have rather weird results 14:44:24 Run, it's the oklomaker! 14:44:46 wow, a sort of oklo factory would be worrying 14:45:03 the whole world would be full of oklopols and oklofoks and oklojots and whatever 14:45:36 and the average IQ would go massively over 100 and the contradiction would cause everything to become true 14:46:03 stop calling me intelligent, it's confusing :D 14:46:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:47:10 yay only one month till universality proofs 14:47:17 and undecidability 14:47:17 there's no reason you can't be both intelligent /and/ confused 14:47:31 probably more undecidability than universality 14:49:13 i like to think of computability theory as the art of ruining puzzles for mathematicians 14:49:42 party, kar8nga 14:49:44 ! 14:50:09 Maybe I should stick some sort of PCFG babble-generator into fungot; that would mean more well-structured output, and the generation part is still really very simple, although not quite so trivial as with the current n-gram model. 14:50:09 fizzie: i went through every book i could find 14:50:22 fungot: And still you can't really speak. 14:50:22 fizzie: the helpful article might be a deliberate typo or someone has vandalized the text. perhaps the cards have jumpers to set the stack size 14:51:08 "the helpful article might be a deliberate typo" 14:51:21 fungot has a point 14:51:22 FireFly: thank you, that budapest national anthem!!! wrong channel :) 14:51:28 Oh, I see 14:52:01 I'd need either POS-tagged corpora or a well-working tagger to get training data for that, though. 14:52:53 how can an article be a deliberate typo, i mean i suppose an article could be considered a typo if it was accidentally written, and a typo could be considered deliberate if it looked like it was an accident but wasn't 14:53:01 but if you merge those 14:53:08 i can't see it 14:53:15 also sorting cards is my new hobby 14:53:48 not speedsorting, trying out different algos (my record is 2:15 or something) 14:54:03 (for speedsorting, in case someone happens to speedsort) 14:54:22 heapsort is kinda hard with a dog jumping on the cards 14:54:26 oklopol: Since we don't tolerate helpfulness around these parts, the article had to look like it was trying to be unhelpful, and someone had just accidentally written it so that it ended up being helpful after all. But the "mistake" was in fact deliberate, and now we'll need to find the culprit before everything's helpful. 14:55:04 That must've been what fungot meant 14:55:05 FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on 14:55:30 `style 14:55:35 : ^style 14:55:37 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 14:55:38 Ah 14:55:46 ` was for... hackego? 14:55:49 fizzie: i suppose that's semipossible 14:55:52 Probably 14:56:32 my internet is broken, have to reboot the modemo thingie 14:56:42 the metanature of the article which was apparently a deliberate typo is confusing me :< 14:57:27 -!- oklofog has joined. 14:58:04 oh, right, i'm using a proxy slow as hell 14:58:44 tried to get megavideo to think i'm an american, seems proxys don't get me that, maybe one of you nerds can explain why 14:59:03 *hulu 14:59:12 not megavideo 15:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:14:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:14:46 wait topic set by ais523, originally by ehird though, right? 15:14:54 no, I set it 15:15:28 interesting 15:16:18 should probably get back to my maths soon 15:16:36 been slackering for almost an hour 15:46:00 -!- nooga has joined. 15:46:02 hey 15:50:21 -!- nooga_ has joined. 15:51:07 i've got a 'formal languages' course on my university 15:51:56 i thought that i could make a project instead of going to classes 15:55:30 the teacher said 'ok, but you have to construct a problem for yourself' 15:55:39 and i don't have an idea 16:00:02 i though about some metalanguage fun 16:03:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:05:10 -!- ehird95 has joined. 16:08:20 h 16:08:59 so, Nathan of toastytech (of huge-collection-of-screenshots-of-GUIs, crazy IE-eliminating and Windows 95-...well, tolerating fame) fame has posted on the mozilla forums and bugzilla to get the latest seamonkey working on windows 95 (which he still uses as his OS, apparently) 16:09:23 but mine doesn't even get to that stage; I think I need some DLLs from IE 4 (I obliterated IE entirely, hee) 16:09:33 so, yeah, time to extract some installers. 16:10:46 06:55:05 FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on 16:10:47 ehird95: fnord sounds better that way. costs me next to nothing. 16:10:51 that *is* a better idea 16:11:03 fungot: but is it ethical? i mean, doing all that just to make your fnords better? it costs PEOPLE'S LIVES, dude. 16:11:04 ehird95: it's not a religious issue at all). note that lst may be a dotted list 16:11:11 fungot: you can have ethics without being religious 16:11:12 ehird95: what book and what is not 16:11:16 fungot: what. 16:11:17 ehird95: are the dots for? 16:11:22 fungot: i don't know. what are the dots for? 16:13:13 also: hooray for irfanview, another quality program that runs on 95. 16:14:28 (boo for opera, eater of my system resources) 16:14:48 fungot: bump 16:14:49 ais523: http://pastebin.ca/ fnord on line 91. obviously things have changed. 16:15:27 fungot: you linked to the home page by mistake, rather than to the actual paste... 16:15:28 ais523: do you put your data on the stack than i intended, but almost :) 16:21:46 * ehird95 tries opera 9; apparently it's less hogging 16:21:57 then seamonkey... 16:23:00 ummmmmmm 16:23:08 i just deleted opera and now i have no browsers 16:23:09 * ehird95 clever 16:24:49 wget something? 16:24:58 On Windows 95? 16:25:05 Ah 16:25:08 Maybe not, then 16:25:09 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:25:19 I could use ftp, if DOS prompts didn't fuck up the system. 16:25:34 Ah, IE 3 is on the Windows disc. 16:26:37 -!- ehird95 has quit. 16:58:11 -!- ehird95 has joined. 16:58:36 Hi. 16:59:25 hi 17:00:22 hi 17:01:12 -!- jix has joined. 17:01:52 erm, what d you use to extract cabs and installers on windows? 17:01:56 *do 17:02:04 generally you just double-click them 17:02:16 on a .cab? no, that just gives the unknown file dialog 17:02:33 it was very common to have GUI decompression software installed, normally shareware, back then 17:03:19 I have WinZip 6 installed, but it doesn't do cabs. 17:03:37 ugh 17:03:47 why ugh? 17:04:38 I guess I could install 7-Zip or something 17:04:41 wow, I found the official instructions from Microsoft about extracting .cabs 17:04:49 Oh? 17:04:49 do you have internet access so you can see the stupidity for yourself? 17:04:54 or shall I say it over IRC? 17:05:05 I have Opera, yes. 17:05:08 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/129605 <--- so everyone can laugh at the windows 95 instructions 17:05:17 Opera 9 with a Windows ME dll helping it along, right now. 17:05:34 it suggests using Start | Find | Files or Folders to find extract.exe 17:05:38 Somehow adding this ME component actually *improves* its operation. 17:05:44 on the installation disk 17:05:46 Which would, at first site, seem to be an anti-tautology. 17:05:50 and then, copying it to the root directory of drive C 17:05:56 ais523: :D 17:06:13 this is Microsoft's own advice, surely they'd know where it was? 17:07:05 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:07:29 (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME) 17:07:32 -!- ehird95 has joined. 17:07:35 What did I miss? 17:07:37 (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME) 17:07:50 I was testing to see if extract.exe is already included in Windows 95. I gather it was, because I got a DOSboxcrash. 17:07:53 *it is 17:07:55 not it was 17:08:10 so in other words, the instructions are not only ridiculous, but also unnecessarily convoluted? 17:08:15 I believe so. 17:08:28 So, I guess my first task is to fix DOS prompts. 17:10:38 great, i broke a key. 17:11:14 uck this shit. 17:13:01 which one? 17:13:03 and how? 17:13:09 in hardware or software? 17:15:15 the key 17:15:18 and in hardware 17:15:31 by snapping one o the prongs that plugs into the key hole, thing 17:15:38 "If you try Scitech Display Doctor as an alternative VGA Driver: You must try Version 7. Versions before this (5.x, 6.x) are known not to work." 17:15:40 d'oh 17:15:46 * ehird95 pokes izzie 17:15:47 shit 17:15:51 how am i meant to ping izzie :D 17:15:56 izzie: slave! appear! 17:18:27 * ehird95 downloads sdd 7 beta 17:19:11 I'm guessing that the key in question is f 17:19:19 and I'll ping fizzie for you if necessary 17:20:10 That's totally alse. What a raternical attitude, to associate like a ern the concept o the key when there is no ucking rational evidence to back up the claim. I have expelled latulence more logical and unny! 17:21:00 it would be so great if you were bluffing 17:21:19 can you easily remap it to one of the other keys? 17:21:25 maybe in the virtualiser? 17:21:34 there are all the F-keys, as well as f itself, for instance 17:22:37 wll th ky dosn't it into that hol 17:23:07 rtttttttttttttttttr334445544444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444cttt 17:23:09 tttttttttttttttttttttt 17:23:12 tt 17:23:24 you don't need to change the physical layout... 17:23:27 yhhhhhhhhhhhhhh5555555555555yhyu 17:24:03 i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy 17:24:19 exdf 17:24:38 hey, damaged key worksfff 17:24:41 wels weird hough 17:24:59 Possible success! Fucking yay! 17:25:00 yeo 17:25:01 yep 17:25:03 you're typing reall badly 17:25:05 *really badly 17:25:07 for a typical ehird 17:25:14 well, in this line: 17:25:16 presumably this is due to the keyboard problems 17:25:22 [17:05] i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy 17:25:28 the whole block of keys around f was totally missing 17:25:32 it was meant to read: 17:25:44 i was trying to put the "3" (back) (i.e. backwards i.e. e) key in slot (i.e. slot of f key) 17:26:00 ugh, the f key's tactileness is subtly but annoyingly different now 17:26:13 rebooting for SciTech Displa Doctor 7 Beta! 17:26:15 *Display 17:26:21 is your keyboard back in order? 17:26:22 -!- ehird95 has quit. 17:31:24 -!- ehird95 has joined. 17:31:30 good news: the driver seems to work 17:31:40 bad news: the configuration panel looks like XP and has animations. 17:31:43 ugh 17:31:47 I hope I can not run it all the time 17:31:57 Also, of course, I will have to pirate it. 17:32:07 is it a shareware driver? 17:32:21 Yes; Scion Display Doctor aka UniVBE or whatever it's called. 17:32:25 Sorry, SciTech. 17:33:13 shareware drivers are a horrible horrible thought 17:33:26 my mind is refusing to comprehend the possibility that they exist 17:33:34 even though you've said they do 17:33:47 ais523: eh 17:33:58 ais523: they DID code support for thousands upon thousands of graphics cards -- literally 17:34:10 so it's understandable, if misguided, that they'd demand money for it 17:34:20 yes, but suppose the time runs out; you'll then be unable to see your screen 17:34:29 no, it'll revert to the default VGA driver that can run anything. 17:34:41 windows 95 does that automatically, unlike ancient technology such as, uh, Xorg. 17:35:01 anyway i doubt the actual driver checks the licenses 17:35:20 maybe it spawns something that does, but i highly doubt there's license-checking code inside the driverspace 17:35:42 aaaand command prompts work 17:36:13 hope there's a serial for this somewhere. 17:36:44 * ehird95 installs powerstrip to see if he can get the resolution to be 16:10 17:36:58 are you planning on sticking with windows 95, btw? 17:37:04 erm, define sticking 17:37:13 using it as a main OS for a while 17:37:20 (also, is that a legit copy?) 17:37:25 well, that's effectively what I'm doing, albeit in a VM. also, no. 17:37:35 I doubt this thing will actually become my main OS. 17:37:38 we should port LGA to it 17:37:44 But it *is* suprisingly capable, and I like the GUI. 17:37:45 LGA? 17:37:58 (did you really have to ask whether it was legit, by the way? I mean, it's me!) 17:38:03 so it can become legit 17:38:06 (probably easier than porting WGA, because we don't have the source to that) 17:38:07 oh, ha 17:38:30 i'm not sure microsoft would cooperate :) 17:39:25 * ehird95 decides to give a name to small programs, generally run at startup, that apply globally to the OS and have no UI apart from configuration (if even that) 17:39:26 "fixups" 17:39:37 for instance, Rain is a fixup that runs hlt on idle cycles 17:40:00 ehird95: sort-of like services on UNIX? 17:40:05 the only UI is a system tray icon that you can right click to turn it off/on (it hides/shows rain drops hitting a chip), and if you left-click it a little about dialog pops up (strangely without any attribution) 17:40:17 personally I'd prefer it had no system tray; you can just kill it if you want to disable it 17:40:19 ok, that is strange 17:40:20 *system tray icon 17:40:26 ais523: what's strange? 17:40:35 an about box that doesn't say who made it 17:40:41 that's like, the purpose of about boxes 17:40:59 even the Windows programs I made years ago had help|about menu items that put up a message box 17:41:06 well, no; it tells you what processor it's optimised for 17:41:14 (it's an option when you install) 17:42:40 ais523: anyway, I called them fixups for a reason; it's genreeally of the form "this should be like this in the OS, but it isn't" 17:42:43 *generally 17:42:55 or, less mildly, "I prefer the OS to work this way, but it isn't an option; this works instead" 17:43:12 Fitts, for instance, will be a fixup of the first kind: the OS should obey Fitts' Law, and dammit I'm going to make it. 17:43:35 (It'll be installed entirely into the StartUp menu, and have no UI; you can terminate it via Ctrl+Alt+Delete if you want.) 17:44:26 how are you going to magically make Windows 95 obey Fitts' Law? 17:44:42 and will you make every program do so? or just the things that are part of the OS? or just the things that came with the OS? 17:44:45 well, only one instance actually annoys me that I've noticed: the task bar 17:44:57 does the start button work in the bottom-left corner/ 17:45:06 yes in 2000 onwards 17:45:09 aha 17:45:10 no in 95 17:45:14 what about closeboxes? 17:45:15 and it's REALLY ANNOYING 17:45:20 however, just fixing that isn't all 17:45:27 you can't swipe to the bottom pixel to switch window 17:45:33 so what i'm doing is, removing the border of the task bar 17:45:37 imagine the start button and the window buttons 17:45:41 and just put them right next to each other 17:45:57 and then put that at the bottom of the screen, the regular gray blank taskbar area (but smaller, since it's without the padding) 17:46:07 then the system tray, with its indented border again being as high as the whole thing 17:46:10 voila 17:46:15 fitt's law obeyed, graphical consistency obeyed 17:46:58 it should be quite easy, too 17:47:14 just basically moving the task bar slightly off screen, then painting over it a bit to make the graphics look good 17:47:24 (slightly off screen so that the buttons flush with the screen edges) 17:47:48 well, and force-clipping its height so windows can go in the unused space where there would be padding 17:48:04 then just some extra hackery to move the button widgets next to each other 17:48:16 windows 95 has basically no protections, so i should be able to do it without asking please. 17:48:42 yep 17:51:41 I was not very pokeable, being shopping and eating and thing. 17:51:49 Psht! 17:53:34 Anyone know how to make a Windows monitor definition file? 17:55:05 I did one once, but I certainly have forgotten the knowledge by now. 17:55:19 It was for the 666x666 screen mode I used in Linux, I think. 17:55:29 Perhaps not so useful. 17:56:58 Yay, I can close that awful XP-like thing without breaking the drivers. 17:57:07 My world is a house of joy. 17:57:26 Time to install SeaMonkey 1.1.17, because you have to patch it to get .18 working. 17:57:54 So, I don't suppose anyone knows of something like the task manager for Windows 9x? 17:57:59 There's this http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html thing I might've used; it does monitor.inf format for timings, though not a complete file. 17:58:08 You know, listing processes, their memory usage, their CPU usage, and letting you kill them. 17:58:21 I found one but it sucked so much as to be useless. 17:58:43 fizzie: Timings don't matter if the screen isn't real, do they? 17:59:17 I guess not, no. You just needed the right resolution or something? 17:59:44 Yah; I'm using VESA BIOS stuff and want mah 1680x1050. 18:00:08 I'm not completely sure you'll get it with the VESA driver unless you can get VirtualBox's fakey VESA BIOS to advertise that mode, but who knows. 18:01:00 Yeah, that's what I was thinking. 18:01:44 Erm, what's the DOS pager? 18:01:51 For dir. 18:01:55 more 18:01:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:06 same as in UNIX, come to think of it 18:02:14 I wasn't thinking of that one, but that'll do 18:02:21 There's the built-in "dir/p". 18:02:42 anyone know the command-line switch to mozilla browsers to run in "safe mode" or whatever? 18:02:47 i.e., you're not starting up. stop that. start up. mode 18:02:58 fizzie: that's what I was thinking of 18:03:04 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 18:03:15 Heh, in the DOS 6 configuration I have (with cracked 4dos and all kinds of customizations) somehow more.com has gotten corrupted, and piping anything to more causes an instant reboot. 18:03:33 It's a nice trap. 18:03:54 Is 4DOS any good, then? 18:05:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:05:39 Compiled to command.com, sure; the tab completion was nice, for example. 18:05:50 I don't really remember what the must-have features were. 18:05:51 Compiled to what what what now? 18:06:16 But indeed, no tab completion is annoying me. 18:06:53 There's also a pretty colorful variant of 'dir', with a lot more flags. 18:07:00 ls? 18:07:25 I guess you could use a ported ls. 18:08:03 I have done, on DOS 18:08:15 The 4dos "dir" isn't too shabby though. 18:08:26 I had just that with the right flags aliased. 18:08:53 I wonder if WebKit compiles on 9x, and if not, how much effort it'd be to port it. 18:08:58 Right, and you get a bit more conventional memory free with 4dos than command.com, but that's probably not an issue if you're mostly win95'ing. 18:09:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DOS and the "Features" list is probably pretty comprehensive. The better batch files I've used, though it's obviously only for personal things, since otherwise non-4dos people couldn't use them. 18:11:19 If webkit uses cairo on windows, that could be a problem. (That's primarily why firefox 3 dropped support for 98, I think) 18:12:15 To hell with 98, I'm talkin' 'bout 95. 18:12:27 Anyway, I don't know if it does. 18:14:20 There's quite a lot of Webkit ports, so either it's not horribly difficult to port, or alternatively people have just been suitably inspired. 18:14:56 Well, there's an Official(TM) build. I'd worry that it'd use Apple's font rendering and widgets like in Safari, but the code for those will be Top Secret, s. 18:14:57 *so 18:15:19 And the source is available, obviously, so. 18:15:35 * ehird95 downloads it to see if it balks 18:17:18 hm 18:17:30 in perl what is the B:: "namespace" of modules 18:17:42 Perl compiler internals. 18:17:45 aha 18:17:45 Well, not really internals. 18:17:50 that explains stuff somewhat 18:17:52 Just an exposure of the Perl compiler stuff so you can be Xzibit. 18:18:17 ehird95, "Xzibit"? 18:18:29 weird spelling of "exhibit"? 18:18:33 >_< 18:18:38 We go through this every three months, AnMaster. 18:18:58 I swear to God we do. Every goddamn time you've completely forgotten every memory of it entirely. 18:19:17 ehird95, was it something related to CS? 18:19:25 *sigh* Yes, AnMaster. 18:19:35 ok what then 18:19:41 Uhh, I don't know. 18:19:44 Something or other. 18:19:48 google just gives imdb hits 18:19:54 AnMaster: it'll be on Wikipedia, if you've forgotten 18:19:56 almost certainly 18:20:02 The article isn't very helpful, I imagine. 18:20:05 some actor or such using that stage name 18:20:16 Yo dawg meme, AnMaster. 18:20:44 Originating from Pimp My Ride, vis-a-vis Xzibit putting objects of desire of person P inside P's car, vis-a-vis vapid, vis-a-vis meme potential. 18:20:48 and I forgot what that meme was about 18:21:08 VIS-A-VIS yo dawg I heard you like verb(X)ing I put an X in your Y so you can verb(X) while you verb(Y) 18:21:27 Often also X=Y. 18:21:30 VIS-A-FUCKIN'-VIS morphing into X=Y. 18:21:31 ah 18:21:31 Right. 18:21:32 that one 18:21:32 s/verb(X)ing/participle(X)/ 18:21:39 Thus, being Xzibit ~= doing meta-things. 18:21:50 ais523: touche 18:22:14 Ooh, the status indicator in the service company's tracking page for the broken monitor has changed from red ("in queue") to yellow ("being worked on"). 18:23:59 There's nothing else useful on the tracking page, but at least I can neurotically look at the indicator and wait until it turns green ("ready"). 18:24:29 Then I... uh, I guess I just wait for them to contact me. What is this tracking thing good for, actually? 18:24:42 Neurotically checking. 18:25:42 it's like the nethack devteam with their buglist 18:25:54 it gives the impression of progress without actually benefitting anyone 18:28:19 Oh, there's a subpage with an "event log"; the event log currently has (for today) three copies of the message "received at the service point" and one empty message. 18:29:50 "A Modern Webkit browser on Windows 98 18:29:50 Thanks to cfchris6 who compiled a binary of Arora that runs on Windows98" 18:29:57 Surely must run on 95 then! 18:30:14 Arora kinda... sucks, though. 18:33:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:36:53 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:38:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:54:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:54:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:17:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:39:32 hi oerjan 19:39:39 hi ehird95 19:40:00 -!- ehird95 has quit. 20:18:31 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:31 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:32 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:32 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:18:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:19:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 20:19:00 -!- jix has joined. 20:19:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:19:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Leonidas has joined. 20:19:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:19:00 -!- Warrigal has joined. 20:19:17 splat 20:22:28 is this freenode getting rid of their memory leaks? 20:25:56 Beats me. 20:26:24 must be, since netsplits have never happened before 20:26:31 * oerjan ducks 20:38:00 oerjan, iwc 20:39:07 read it hours ago 20:39:32 you weren't here hours ago 20:39:43 (so long he has to recheck, actually) 20:40:44 indeed, there was an error with the nvg server so i didn't get onto irc 20:41:47 oerjan, not that I was here hours ago either. Was listening to someone talking about discrete mathematics at university. 20:44:38 -!- ehird95 has joined. 20:44:51 SeaMonkey sucks, there is nothing better 20:44:55 however, it sucks less than Opera 20:45:25 "discuss" 20:45:57 "blabber blabber" 20:46:22 ehird95, what about firefox? 20:46:31 No Windows 9x support. 20:46:35 oh ok 20:46:39 ehird95, this is in vm no? 20:46:44 Yes. 20:47:28 well then, do main browsing outside vm and just the stuff you actually need the vm for inside the vm? 20:47:37 I don't need this VM for anything. 20:48:03 I decided to try Windows 95, and as an extended experiment/what-if I'm, well, using it. 20:48:26 Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... 20:48:43 Although they could do with supporting Unicode. 20:49:17 Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... <-- hm.. 20:49:18 really? 20:49:26 examples please 20:49:26 Yes. They're wonderfully simple. 20:49:38 err how is that inherently good? 20:49:46 For one, Explorer is pleasant to use and has a real design. 20:49:58 And isn't over-cluttered with 400 million options. 20:50:06 ehird95, explorer in xp is quite reasonable to use. Windows 7... not so 20:50:16 Yeah, I could never use XP's explorer after using 95's. 20:50:18 AnMaster: explorer before 98 was really nice 20:50:26 98 brought in some weird HTML folder description thing, though 20:50:35 so you could translate your folders to HTML and have persistent something-or-others 20:50:36 ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes 20:50:36 Yep, 98 came and fucked it up with its wonderful IE-OS-component bullshit 20:50:42 AnMaster: you have a mental defect 20:50:47 either that or you have never used anything before 98 20:50:53 and have severely lowered standards 20:51:00 98's explorer is unbearable... 20:51:06 ehird95: that's what AnMaster said! 20:51:12 ehird95, I used 95 a bit. Not much. And note " ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes" 20:51:26 I ended up using Explorer in 98 quite a bit 20:51:30 it isn't unusable, just awful 20:51:40 I may actually have an 98 OEM CD somewhere 20:51:49 not sure 20:52:06 Well, if you use 95's explorer for any length of time to do actual stuff, then 98's for a time, and come out of it saying 98's explorer is hell yes... I'm thinking this might be a case of there being an actual objective right/wrong opinion on things. :P 20:52:22 Also: Wow IrfanView can do a lt. 20:52:22 *lot 20:52:48 I remember the weird manual with 98 (OEM at least) had some sort of "rub this area of the outside of the manual that looks like something found on money and it should change colour. If it doesn't this copy is fake" 20:53:04 Ah yes, hologram piracy protection! 20:53:05 was heat based iirc 20:53:40 ehird95, well not exactly. I don't think "warm it up and check if it changes colour" counts as a "hologram" 20:53:53 Really Obvious Giving Away Of Non-Nativeness In SeaMonkey, #742: My OS draws outlines for windows when resizing. SeaMonkey redraws the window constantly. 20:54:07 heh 20:54:15 Less noticably, it uses its own icon for the resize-diagonal cursor, an I have no clue why. 20:55:59 The Watcom IDE is so, so stereotypically Win3.1. 20:58:13 argh not again.... google holiday logo on results page but not on main page 20:58:48 http://www.google.com/logos/gandhi09res.gif 20:58:51 to be precise 21:01:41 * ehird95 has the crushing realisation that he doesn't even know what the prototype for WinMain is, and yet wants to mess with the task bar 21:03:12 ehird95, mess with it how? 21:03:24 if you mean adding something to the area near the clock? 21:03:32 No; that's trivial compared to what I'm doing. 21:03:38 ehird95, what are you doing 21:03:39 In practical terms, my code will: 21:03:55 - move the task bar down and left so that they end off the edge of the display 21:04:11 - forcefully clip the height of the task bar from the top to a certain height 21:04:22 - change spacing between widgets in the task bar 21:04:28 and possibly a little bit more. 21:04:36 AnMaster: i have gandhi on the main page *BWAHAHAHA* 21:04:46 This, while not restricted in any way - 95 has no protection, after all - is going to be non-trivial. 21:05:00 *so that it ends off the edge 21:05:04 Weird pluralisation typo there. 21:05:36 some of wp's sort pages have switched to static sorting visualization 21:05:38 A better alternative to the first one would be moving the widgets in the task bar, which I can probably do. 21:06:17 * oerjan cannot see oklofog clearly 21:06:21 AnMaster: The user-interface effect of this code is that the task bar will obey Fitts' Law: you can hit the bottom-left pixel in the screen to open the start menu, you can select a window even if you hit the very bottom pixel, etc. 21:06:48 what is this law? 21:06:53 AnMaster: This is a Very Good Thing, because the current taskbar is mildly but significantly annoying (I'm unintentionally training myself to be slower aiming for it, which reduces annoyance almost entirely but makes me slower). 21:07:03 AnMaster: It's a law about the easiest places to access with the mouse. 21:07:11 Anything on the screen edge has infinite width/height. 21:07:17 You can move your mouse up and up and it'll stay there. 21:07:24 ah true 21:07:36 And things with infinite height are the easiest to hit; the easiest places on the screen to hit are the exact position your cursor is in, and the four corners. 21:07:52 It has more subtle results than that, but that's the only part my application uses. 21:08:05 ehird95, what are the more subtle results? 21:08:19 Like the easiest places to reach in-between those two extremes. 21:08:36 ehird95, also it isn't true always. Hitting left side of my desktop is currently rather hard due to synergy. 21:08:52 Anyway, Windows 2000 onwards or somesuch already lets you open the start menu with a bottom-leftmost click, but it doesn't redraw the widgets so that the start menu actually ends at the screen edge, which looks weird, and it doesn't let you hit the bottom pixel of the screen to switch windows. 21:09:08 AnMaster: It works perfectly fine there, it just considers both computers as one desktoop. 21:09:13 Because, as far as the mouse is concerned, they are. 21:09:33 Of course, since nothing on the other computer is useful to software on the other, it basically limits the choices of the application. 21:09:52 ehird95, yes, you just have to be aware of that the mouse does not stop at the bottom left corner when going to the K menu 21:10:18 I often end up clicking the right end of the panel on my laptop instead 21:10:29 on the other hand, the alternative is worse 21:10:46 which means I have to sit at an awkward angle for one of the computers 21:10:55 Just set up a delay, dude. 21:11:01 Like 100ms before it switches. 21:11:02 ehird95, I have done so 21:11:05 250 ms 21:11:13 Then it shouldn't really be an issue so much. 21:11:29 Maybe you could add an exception for that corner pixel. 21:11:38 ehird95, well the delay helps a lot. But still I have issues with that yeah 21:11:39 I doubt you want to switch computers through it so very often. 21:11:54 did I say I did? 21:12:12 and well not a lot unless I'm copying stuff between them 21:13:40 So add an exception for that corner pixel. 21:13:51 Voila, Fitts' Law is saved for the most useful cases (the corners). 21:14:02 ehird95, just have to find out how 21:14:08 Well, yes, that would be the hard part. :P 21:14:27 and yeah I should probably add a bit more than that single pixel. since I seem to often hit like 4-5 pixels up the side 21:14:42 however when I actually *want* to switch it is often somewhere in the upper 2/3rd 21:14:55 It's alright, ehird95. We'll work out Win32. Together. 21:15:05 err 21:15:12 that is yourself yeah :P 21:15:12 You don't have to be scared on the WinMain() and the HWND and the LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR. 21:15:34 Come on ehird95. Let's just open the browser and go to Google. CALM DOWN. It will not destroy your soul. Uh, much. 21:15:36 LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR <--- LPT REXTISTENTAL HORROR? 21:15:41 something printer related? 21:15:43 Long pointer to existential horror. 21:15:47 ah 21:16:22 ehird95, are you sure it is actually possible to do this without basically patching system files? 21:16:28 oooh an idea 21:16:29 ELLIOTT. Do not think about the fact that they use stdcall. They are not on crack! Okay, fine, they are on crack. But that doesn't mean you'll be on crack too! When using it? I think? 21:16:35 AnMaster: Windows 95 has no protection. 21:16:37 do it as a windows 95 plus theme thingy 21:16:38 :D 21:16:42 Any process can do what the fuck it wants. 21:16:52 That's how loadlin works; it's just an ordinary process that goes "byebye, Windows". 21:17:04 ehird95, what about stdcall? 21:17:13 It's freaky! 21:17:20 ehird95, I forgot how it differed 21:17:31 I don't recall either, I just recall it's freaky. 21:17:31 return value in register or something? 21:17:54 Also, second project queued up: Windows 9x WebKit browser that doesn't suck. 21:17:58 I have had it with these browsers! 21:18:10 Can barely... bare... them. 21:18:11 "The stdcall[1] calling convention is a variation on the pascal calling convention in which parameters are passed on the stack, pushed right-to-left. Registers EAX, ECX, and EDX are designated for use within the function. Return values are stored in the EAX register. The callee is responsible for cleanup of the stack." 21:18:18 according to wikipedia 21:18:28 Yeah, but AnMaster, they do varargs stdcall. 21:18:31 I'm not joking. 21:18:34 The Win32API actually has that. 21:18:38 err how? 21:18:41 I don't know. 21:18:46 It's some crazy horrifying trick. 21:18:53 right to left. No it shouldn't be an issue 21:18:57 the cleanup however would be 21:19:00 quite an issue 21:19:05 Where's the first argument, though? 21:19:13 Ask ais523; he's more acquainted with the unmentionable horror. 21:19:39 I don't know the details of Windows calling conventions 21:19:49 except that they make your programs nonportable by forcing you to specify them all the time 21:19:55 with keywords non-Windows compilers don't accept 21:20:53 Pretty sure if you're using the Windows API you're non-portable anyway. 21:20:54 ais523, doesn't the headers specify them already? and for exported API just do: #define PLATFORM_EXPORT_FUNC to the __dllspec(whatever) stuff and so on 21:21:01 ehird95, well yes 21:21:10 Okay, time to dive in to the WinMain(). 21:21:21 ehird95, RIP ehird95 21:21:25 AnMaster: things like callbacks you have to define yourself 21:21:27 Fitts, version 1: a graphical Win32 program that exits immediately after it starts. Go. 21:21:34 and with particular keyboard conventions 21:21:44 AnMaster: Quite. 21:22:17 ais523, btw cfunge doesn't use standard calling convention on x86 either. After profiling I found that using the gcc __attribute__ to use register passing saved *quite* a bit on 32-bit x86 21:22:32 Hmm, a Windows 9x-native WebKit browser might be quite... interesting; seeing as I'm pretty sure on Windows your toolkit options are GTK and Qt. 21:22:34 only applies to internal functions of course 21:22:50 (Chrome uses their own port of WebKit to Windows, but Chrome is XP/Vista/7 only, so.) 21:22:57 AnMaster: cfunge isn't meant to be portable C when the extreme-x86 options are turned on 21:23:04 and I'm glad you're doing it as a portable/nonportable polyglot 21:23:28 So I'm pretty sure I'd have to rewrite every single widget call in WebKit to use Win32. 21:23:32 ais523, actually not an option. It is always used if 1) GCC is detected 2) 32-bit x86 is 21:23:52 ehird95, GTK for windows? Or is that not 9x either? 21:24:12 ais523, but never otherwise. 21:24:13 AnMaster: Well, there's Qt for Windows too, but they're both Not Actually Native(TM). 21:24:24 Both use the actual widgets, iirc, but the total construction is off. 21:24:24 ehird95, QT on windows looks good though 21:24:31 Yes, looks, at a glance. 21:24:43 ehird95, "for extended usage" I mean 21:24:47 I can guarantee you there are many subtle warts vs the platform, just like in OS X. 21:25:18 ehird95, nothing I noticed. But I'm quite happy with gimp on OS X apart from the whole "X11 starting" bit 21:25:29 and I'm fine with mixed KDE and GTK too 21:25:55 You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? 21:25:58 Still looks fugly though. 21:25:59 lets see my desktop.... KDE3... GTK apps not set to KDE like theme but just old style very rectangular theme 21:26:18 But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... 21:26:24 You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? <-- yes, but not when I last used OS X 21:26:28 because it simply doesn't integrate one bit; it's the polar opposite 21:26:36 But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... <-- no I didn't say it fits well 21:26:40 ah. 21:27:13 I just said: I have no problems with it not fitting well 21:27:13 which is quite different 21:27:13 I can *see* it doesn't fit 21:27:13 but it just doesn't bother me much 21:27:20 more than gimp does *anywhere* I mean 21:27:22 int WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow) 21:27:28 Jesus lord mother of fucking goddamn shitting christ. 21:27:38 ehird95, where is the pointer to the struct 21:27:41 Holy cow, that's some function prototype for a goddamn main function. 21:27:41 and what is the instance stuff 21:27:52 Instance is the application instance; i.e. your process, sorta. 21:27:57 hPrevInstance is NULL. 21:28:06 lpCmdLine is your command line arguments, except they all come as one string. 21:28:10 nCmdShow is I have no fucking idea. 21:28:15 WINAPI expands to stdcall. 21:28:20 ehird95, int main(void), int main(argc, argv), int main(argc, argv, envp) are the ones I know of on POSIX 21:28:28 hPrevInstance is NULL. <-- wait what? 21:28:35 AnMaster: Backwards compatibility. 21:28:40 oh damn 21:28:48 This is why back compat evil. :) 21:28:51 *compat is evil 21:29:01 ehird95, how comes POSIX doesn't have so many visible backward compat warts 21:29:09 I know of only a few 21:29:11 very few 21:29:27 Because POSIX is a million times less popular. 21:29:47 And basically no consumers use it, thus all the apps are mainly business, backend stuff, etc. 21:29:51 Which tends to be less shit. 21:29:57 But only slightly. 21:30:25 heh 21:31:42 * ehird95 adds a search box to SeaMonkey with MonkeyMenu. Yaaaay. 21:31:44 Less people do really truly awful things to POSIX. And people are much less bitchy when stuff breaks on POSIX systems. 21:32:00 That's... About it. 21:32:36 wikipedia on AMD64 calling convention: "The calling convention of the AMD64 application binary interface is followed on Linux and other non-Microsoft operating systems. The registers RDI, RSI, RDX, RCX, R8 and R9 are used for integer and pointer arguments while XMM0, XMM1, XMM2, XMM3, XMM4, XMM5, XMM6 and XMM7 are used for floating point arguments. As in the Microsoft x64 calling convention, additiona 21:32:36 l arguments are pushed onto the stack and the return value is stored in RAX." 21:32:38 sigh 21:32:47 would help if it was actually accurate 21:32:47 which it isn't 21:33:18 basically. Small structs are also passed in registers 21:36:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_style worst wp article ever 21:37:39 someone got into the edit page and thought "I'm going to explain EVERY NUANCE to everyone who reads this article! They'll be so pleased that I've accurately documented the facts and subtleties of every single facet of programming style. Hey, what does it matter if half of them only apply to curly brace languages? What does it matter if I should be describing the basic elements because it's an encyclopedia? Whoopdihey!" 21:38:01 21:42:39 The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. 21:42:42 *Watcom 21:42:51 what do you think of the term "an eightbyte"? 21:43:07 to quote AMD64 ABI: 21:43:09 Within this specification, the term byte refers to a 8-bit object, the term twobyte 21:43:09 refers to a 16-bit object, the term fourbyte refers to a 32-bit object, the term 21:43:09 eightbyte refers to a 64-bit object, and the term sixteenbyte refers to a 128-bit 21:43:09 object.1 21:43:15 quite unusual 21:43:36 (the 1 there is a footnote btw) 21:43:40 Heh. 21:43:46 Hey, my first Win32 program just executed. 21:43:50 I feel my soul dripping away. 21:43:54 Well, second. 21:43:59 I executed a nop a few times before that. 21:44:07 #include 21:44:07 int WINAPI WinMain( 21:44:07 HINSTANCE hInstance, 21:44:07 HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, 21:44:07 LPSTR lpCmdLine, 21:44:08 * ais523 looks at http://www.html-protector.com/encrypt/sample.html 21:44:08 int nCmdShow) 21:44:10 { 21:44:12 MessageBox(NULL, "Hello, world!", "Hello", MB_OK); 21:44:14 return 0; 21:44:16 } 21:44:18 The boilerplate stings. 21:44:27 it's much worse if you want to actually open a window 21:44:38 rather than just sit in the background without an associated window 21:44:40 The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. <-- why are you using that one? 21:44:40 Please, let the tutorial break the horror into me. 21:44:43 and how does it look? 21:45:22 ais523, "To display this page you need a browser with JavaScript support."? 21:45:23 AnMaster: Because I'm using Open Watcom, and it looks like it was designed for Windows 3.1. Subwindows up the wazoo, button-style toolbar icons, small (like in Mosaic), the editor/debugger/etc are all different programs, so you have to switch to another big-window-with-subwindows to do things like make and run. 21:45:30 Also, all the icons are 16x16, 16-color affairs. 21:45:39 AnMaster: look at the source 21:45:51 And the editor's status line actually uses black Win 3.1-font (dunno what it's called) upon dark teal. 21:45:55 It is rather unreadable. 21:46:10 basically, they have a bunch of JS on the page that they claim will make it impossible to open the page without a password, or in a "less-restricted" browser like Mozilla 21:46:19 and even people who can open the page can't see its HTML, or even retrieve it from cache 21:46:20 However, it's convenient; it autoindents, syntax highlights and it also handles writing a build script for me. 21:46:27 it's like one of those right-click-block scripts on steroids 21:46:31 ais523, seems like a trivial to break encryption? 21:46:34 it is 21:46:40 Which is good, because these are the commands it executes: 21:46:41 (sec) 21:46:44 so incredibly trivial that I thought people here would be amused by it 21:46:57 ais523, it's just url encoding right? 21:47:02 for most part 21:47:06 21:47:08 AnMaster: yes, it is 21:47:09 not sure where the hp_d00 is 21:47:19 eval(unescape('%68%70%5F%6F%6B%3D%74%72%75%65%3B%66%75%6E%63%74%69%6F%6E%20%68%70%5F%64%30%30%28%73%29%7B%69%66%28%21%68%70%5F%6F%6B%29%72%65%74%75%72%6E%3B%64%6F%63%75%6D%65%6E%74%2E%77%72%69%74%65%28%73%29%7D')) 21:47:19 hm 21:47:20 what is that bit 21:47:35 maybe it defines the hp_d00 function 21:47:36 eval(unescape('hp_ok=true;function hp_d00(s){if(!hp_ok)return;document.write(s)}')) 21:47:43 err 21:47:44 I ran the source of the page through LeetKey 21:47:45 hp_ok? 21:47:46 what 21:47:49 :D 21:47:49 which is an underestimated Firefox plugin 21:47:59 ais523, what does leetkey do? 21:48:09 it was originally designed to parse 1337-speak into something more readable 21:48:15 AnMaster: The reason I'm using the Open Watcom IDE is because it writes the Makefile (or equivalent) to run these commands without me getting near anything nearly as horrifying: 21:48:16 cd C:\Code\Fitts 21:48:16 wmake -f C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.mk -h -e C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.exe 21:48:16 wcc386 Fitts.c -i="C:\WATCOM/h;C:\WATCOM/h/nt" -w4 -e25 -zq -od -d2 -6r -bt=nt -fo=.obj -mf 21:48:16 wlink name Fitts d all SYS nt_win op m op maxe=25 op q op symf @Fitts.lk1 21:48:20 but a lot more filters got added to it over time 21:48:33 That's to compile one trivial C file into a Win32 graphical executable with Open Wacom. 21:48:36 so it does things like ROT13ing and URLencode/decoding etc 21:48:40 ehird95, why not use MSVC or something? 21:48:51 AnMaster: 1. Windows 95 2. $$$ 21:48:55 also, "source code thiefs"? 21:49:08 ais523: it means people who INFRINGE THE COPYRIGHT of your code! 21:49:10 ehird95, MSDNAA doesn't seem to have such old MSVC 21:49:10 for one, that should be "thieves", for two, I doubt they really exist in large numbers 21:49:25 ehird95, oh I think I may have an old old copy of MSVC++ 6.0 or something 21:49:29 I keep mentally muddling MSDNAA with MPAA and RIAA 21:49:31 speaking of "thieves", their site pops up a fake dialog using OS X Tiger's window widgets 21:49:32 probably pro 21:49:33 they shouldn't have picked a similar naming scheme 21:49:34 ais523, :D 21:49:38 isn't that, you know, just as illegal? 21:49:45 ehird95: who knows 21:50:05 AnMaster: was that an offer? I'm not exactly sure MSVC++ will be less horrific than this, but... 21:50:08 "Retrieve this page from your cache... It %65xpires IMMEDIATELY!" 21:50:19 ais523: :D 21:50:23 I wonder why the URLdecode failed there? maybe it was double-encoded in the original... 21:50:33 ehird95, it is an entire cd. if I can find it. Slow uplink. So probably not an offer as such 21:50:48 also, I'm surprised that they thought of disabling cache (which means your own server gets hammered), but not of people just using view source and URL-decoding it 21:50:50 plus it would be... you know. ileegal? 21:50:51 AnMaster: Also, the commands for MSVC++ are probably as horrific. 21:50:53 illegal* 21:50:54 and 21:51:05 piracy? illegal? 21:51:05 also, first time I've seen a page deliberately coded to /not/ work in Firefox 21:51:06 it sucks at standard compliance 21:51:07 you. don't. say 21:51:16 AnMaster: actually downloading copyrighted material is legal in sweden iirc 21:51:18 not sure about uploading 21:51:24 ehird95, yeah, it is bleeding edge research I know 21:51:24 ... 21:51:36 ehird95, um uploading is, But not downloading 21:51:36 iirc 21:51:43 which forbids bittorrent 21:51:47 AnMaster: that's bizarrely backwards 21:51:48 since you upload too there 21:51:54 ehird95, oh and I think using it is 21:52:00 why is providing copyrighted material legal, but downloading it isn't? 21:52:17 ehird95, yep. It's like "selling sex isn't forbidden, buying sex is" 21:52:35 copyrighted content: substitute for sex! 21:52:41 hah 21:53:47 http://weichhold.com/wp-content/gallery/misc/vc6_0.png ;; MSVC++ 6 seems to be a little prettier and less cluttered and has the advantage of being in one window 21:53:56 otoh, I don't need any of that file browser stuff since this thing is one file 21:54:04 and pirating it would probably take decades 21:54:05 ais523, how on earth would that site prevent cache and such even on MSIE? 21:54:11 plus, eh, why not support FOSS :P 21:54:21 I think there's anti-cache stuff in the headers 21:54:21 ehird95, is that open watcom FOSS? 21:54:21 AnMaster: set it to be outdated immediately 21:54:34 AnMaster: it's the open-sourced continuation of the famous Watcom compiler 21:54:43 ehird95, ah 21:54:45 since 2003 21:54:59 Doom, Descent, Magic Carpet, System Shock, Fast Attack, Atomic Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D are among well known games that were compiled with Watcom C.[1] 21:55:02 can't be too bad, eh 21:55:07 doubt they used the ide though :) 21:56:05 ehird95, screenshot of IDE? 21:56:15 sure. 21:57:41 There's the text-based Watcom IDE too; that's the only one I've used. 21:58:35 screenshot'd; uploading 21:58:53 you can't really feel the 3.1ness without using it, oh well 21:59:08 at least the window decorations and task bar should make you feel the windows 95ness :) 21:59:27 ehird95, I only used windows 3.1 once. For a few minutes. 21:59:35 So I couldn't ever feel windows3.1-ness 21:59:49 http://imgur.com/v729P.png (the commands at the end of the source file are just me typing out the build log) 22:00:20 ehird95, the background picture doesn't look windows-95-ish 22:00:23 at all 22:00:33 yeah, that's because i set it myself 22:00:43 too large res for it 22:00:44 too many colours 22:00:57 ehird95, doesn't fit with the environment at ALL 22:01:12 ehird95, also it feels 3.1ish. The icons do that is 22:01:17 and the three view 22:01:19 The window decorations are pretty much invisible to me after using them for a while, so everything else is fitting in with the background. 22:01:32 Green is underrepresented in 95, anyway. 22:01:44 ehird95, why do you need green at all? :/ 22:02:18 It's a nice colour. 22:02:47 yay, /me gets nostalgia for 16-bit programs on win95 22:02:57 also, win95 font rendering 22:03:03 ugly but very easy to make out the individual characters 22:03:09 so although it was slow to read, it was pretty accurate 22:03:29 Eh, even XP ships with similar font rendering by default. 22:03:36 At larger sizes it antialiases them, though. 22:03:37 But otherwise it's identical. 22:04:17 The full background: http://imgur.com/vVBHr.png I scaled 'n cropped it from a 1680x1050 wallpaper. 22:04:30 ehird95: XP is more likely to use truetype fonts than raster ones, though 22:04:33 Technically it's a BMP on disk for Windows, but that'd just be too slow to upload and download. 22:04:44 and ouch, I remember BMP 22:04:50 Nothing wrong with BMP. 22:04:55 left-to-right, bottom-to-top, uncompressed, and with a weird header format 22:05:00 Well, okay. :P 22:05:00 Bleh, I need a Show Desktop. 22:05:08 Maybe I'll code one and add it to the top of my start menu. 22:05:08 does start-D work? 22:05:18 I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 22:05:28 Start, pause, d pops up the Documents menu. 22:05:35 Start+d does nothing. 22:05:36 I mean, chording 22:05:41 ah, ok 22:05:45 Start+R and Start, pause, R do the same thing, though. 22:05:47 (Bring up Run.) 22:05:55 also, the top of the start menu is rather a bad place to Fitt at 22:05:59 *Fitts at 22:06:08 I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 <-- the area where it an IE was in was added in 98 iirc 22:06:13 yes, but the target is big vs the system tray or a Programs menu item 22:06:20 and I don't need to access it all that often 22:06:33 gah, why can't you mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions? 22:06:41 * ais523 is still nostalgic for Program Manager 22:06:43 also what is "start"? 22:06:45 the windows key? 22:06:49 Yes. 22:06:50 yes 22:06:52 ais523: Program Manager works on 95. 22:06:52 well, super 22:06:53 right 22:06:56 I used it earlier. 22:06:56 ehird95: I know 22:07:08 It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. 22:07:11 but it doesn't load on boot 22:07:18 Anyway, you so can mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions. 22:07:27 actually, did the right mouse button do anything in win3.1? 22:07:32 except during the mouse tutorial/ 22:07:36 For instance, NT 4.0 is a rock solid OS with 95's UI, except the UI is buggy. 22:07:47 It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. <-- huh?? 22:07:53 I seem to remember it was win-M in 95. 22:07:56 I guess you could replace a good chunk of the UI straight from 95, thus getting 95-minus-meddling-plus-stability-and-sanity. 22:07:57 For "minimize all windows". 22:08:04 That works. 22:08:06 <3 fizzie 22:08:07 except during the mouse tutorial/ <-- what tutorial? 22:08:08 AnMaster: Program Manager doesn't react to right-clicks 22:08:16 AnMaster: Windows 3.1 had a mouse tutorial 22:08:19 oh? 22:08:24 because mice were new, and you didn't know how to use them 22:08:35 AnMaster: I think you were here when we linked to the youtube clip containing the mouse tutorial. 22:08:41 ais523: anyway, let's think... NT 4.0 + 95 replacement GUI parts... well, that should be able to run 2000/XP programs without too much hacking 22:08:42 ais523, what was it like though? 22:08:44 and most 95 ones 22:08:50 fizzie, maybe my client was 22:08:51 No games, though; it has anemic DirectX support. 22:08:56 I would have to grep logs on cs 22:08:56 AnMaster: to start with, you had to hover some polygons with numbers in 22:08:58 cd* 22:08:58 then click 22:09:05 then double-click, and drag, etc 22:09:13 and near the end there was a dialog box with lots of useless controls 22:09:25 ais523, how were you supposed to open this tutorial to begin with? :D 22:09:37 ais523: so, a good subset of 95+2000 apps if you're willing to do hackery, a rock solid kernel, 95's UI (plus any additions you want as long as they play fine with NT)... 22:09:45 seems like you can basically mix and match windows versions. 22:09:45 AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhG-uds0-o has the win3.1 mouse tutorial; I remember that; it's the awesome, it's like this skill test "click here" "click there" "wow!" 22:09:55 AnMaster: I don't know, for all I know it was shown on first boot 22:10:02 Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. 22:10:03 :( 22:10:10 I actually can't remember a computer without a mouse 22:10:18 this is due to growing up in a mac family 22:10:27 Nothing wrong with mice 22:10:28 even that old apple classic had a mouse 22:10:34 my first computer was a BBC Micro B, which didn't have a mouse 22:10:45 Let's see if Flash 10 wants to install on Windows 95, attempt two??? 22:10:45 although it had a floppy disk drive, rather than the more usual tape 22:10:47 ais523, yes but you are old ;P 22:10:53 not that old 22:10:55 ais523: basically as old as the dinosaurs! 22:11:06 if I were old, it would have been punched cards or paper tape 22:11:08 or wires 22:11:18 Or paper wires, or punched wires. 22:11:23 * AnMaster wonders if that idioms exists in English 22:11:31 "wet behind the ears" 22:11:37 for someone young and inexperienced 22:11:48 Yes. 22:11:54 ah so not just a Swedish idiom then 22:12:13 Well, Flash 9 is the latest for 98/ME; let's hope it'll pretend I'm 95. 22:12:27 It exists also in Finnish, except it's just "märkäkorva", lit. translated as "wet-ear". 22:12:42 fizzie, yeah but Finnish is strange :P 22:12:46 oh btw we should ask oerjan 22:12:52 Unsupported operating system nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 22:12:53 oerjan, do you remember punch cards? 22:12:54 NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu 22:12:57 dfjkgnklsgjljgjklsdf 22:12:58 ahem 22:13:01 ehird95, flash 7 or 8? 22:13:17 flash 9, which is one behind the latest version 22:13:21 we'll see if flash 9 does 95. 22:13:22 erm 22:13:25 we'll see if flash 8 does 95. 22:13:30 but I think youtube uses flash 9 these days... 22:13:40 THOSE 98 USERS GET ALL THE CHICKS^WYOUTUBE 22:13:42 and us 95ers 22:13:43 all alone 22:13:45 cold 22:13:47 weary 22:13:52 without rick astley 22:14:03 ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. 22:14:08 * ehird95 sniff 22:14:29 fizzie: I'd bet about 30% on being able to use setver with Windows. 22:14:45 sweet, setver is for every executable 22:14:49 so... setvar win.exe? :D 22:15:09 It'll still only affect the MS-DOS version number, is my guess. 22:15:24 D'aww. 22:15:42 There's a different numbering there, after all. 22:16:00 Since it was already at dos 7 in win95. 22:16:23 * ehird95 runs flashp8 22:16:23 flicker 22:16:24 done 22:16:29 i read something about seamonkey 22:16:34 in that dialog 22:16:36 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:16:41 WELL 22:16:42 time to investigate 22:16:47 windows. cursor. tutorial CLICK 22:17:05 Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player. 22:17:09 MAYBE IF I'D RESTART IT. 22:17:44 "After installing the plugin, click here." Big box. 22:17:58 Opens the swf in a popup. 22:17:58 Heh. 22:18:37 ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. <-- sensible? 22:18:49 whoosh 22:19:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:19:11 why is there no flash player 8 uninstaller. 22:19:30 ehird95, oh? 22:19:38 well it wasn't wrapped ina proper installer 22:19:38 SO 22:19:42 i guess oldversion are peddling in 22:19:42 um 22:19:45 peddlable goods 22:19:50 eh? 22:19:53 that are not the full... bodied... legitimacy of a full installer. 22:19:55 * AnMaster googles that 22:19:56 extracted, as it were. 22:20:06 No definitions were found for peddlable. 22:20:10 what? 22:20:22 and thusly, it may be so that lacking their surrounding installer framework, instead being a lowly detect-browser-and-copy 22:20:35 they neglected to set up such uninstallable facilities, for my enjoyment, esquire, poppycock, cheesecake. 22:20:36 Did you mean: define:peddleable No definitions were found for peddleable. 22:20:37 right 22:20:39 AND 22:20:39 no help either 22:20:40 THUS 22:20:47 ehird95, so what did that word mean? 22:20:58 Able to be peddled, I would guess, even without an official definition. 22:21:08 fizzie, what is "peddled" then 22:21:09 hm 22:21:22 :iiam: 22:21:25 "A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, cheapjack, monger, or solicitor (with negative connotations since the 16th ..." 22:21:27 mhm 22:21:49 "solicitor"? some sort of lawyer? 22:21:51 :iiaamif: 22:22:03 "S: (v) peddle, monger, huckster, hawk, vend, pitch (sell or offer for sale from place to place)" 22:22:06 (wordnet) 22:22:10 aah 22:22:54 I guess they're not "selling" in a strictly literal sense, but anyway. 22:23:05 var swfUrl = canPlayV9Swf() 22:23:07 version nine only 22:23:16 youtube on windows 95 = impossible 22:23:17 SAD :( 22:23:38 The internets have some uses of "peddlable" in the "can be done with a pedal" sense too, but I doubt that's it. 22:24:25 even flash 8 doesn't work on 95 22:24:26 woe 22:24:26 is 22:24:29 betide 22:24:30 unto 22:24:30 me 22:24:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 22:25:06 thought: does Wine run on Windows 95? 22:25:11 Did DS work? 22:25:14 you could use it to run more recent Windows programs on older versions 22:25:59 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:25:59 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:00 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:01 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:02 -!- mtve has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:26:05 -!- mtve has joined. 22:26:13 Why would WINE run on Windows? 22:26:18 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 22:26:18 -!- jix has joined. 22:26:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:26:18 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:26:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:26:18 -!- Warrigal has joined. 22:26:24 Does Wine run on Windows at all? 22:26:32 hm 22:26:35 fizzie, wouldn't make sense 22:26:40 also that is some bad lag 22:26:42 23 seconds 22:26:47 well down to 0.3 now 22:26:47 WINE runs on Cygwin. 22:26:54 And Cygwin 1.5 supports 95. 22:26:55 But really now. 22:27:00 heh, Wine compiles under Cygwin but doesn't run there? 22:27:01 Sgeo: For the lulz, I guess. 22:27:04 it runs there. 22:27:10 wine and cygwin both run under each other 22:27:12 PCLinuxOS looks very attractive 22:27:15 pclinuxos is shit 22:27:16 also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit 22:27:19 fizzie, you could use colinux first 22:27:19 then wine 22:27:27 Actually, it's just that Cygwin no longer runs on Windows 95. 22:27:27 of course not on windows 9x 22:27:31 first, it's based on mandriva, which is basically the archetypical bad linux distro 22:27:33 pretty much only xp iirc 22:27:41 second, it's less popular than mandriva so doesn't even have the community 22:27:41 not sure about newer windows versions 22:27:42 Alternately: you could maybe just use the Wine DLLs on Win 95. 22:27:42 PCLinuxOS : Linux :: Windows Vista : Windows ? 22:27:50 third, it offers nothing even over mandriva 22:27:57 fizzie: Yes. 22:27:58 in conclusion, it's the only possible way to make mandriva worse :P 22:28:14 some programs run better under Wine then under native Windows 22:28:29 Can I get PCLinuxOS styles for Ubuntu? 22:28:36 Sgeo: they're just kde styles. 22:28:39 so no. 22:28:48 I have KDE on this Ubuntu system 22:28:53 When KDE works well on Ubuntu, I'll try it 22:28:59 you have kubuntu, presumably, ais523 22:29:02 Last time I tried, things were crashtastic 22:29:03 no 22:29:03 as in, kubuntu-dekstop 22:29:05 *desktop 22:29:07 almost 22:29:16 I have most of its dependencies, but not the package itself 22:29:18 well, the packages come from kubuntu, anyway 22:29:30 so i don't think that system running that kde is really not-kubuntu 22:29:39 wow, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_Unshackled is linked from Wikipedia 22:29:47 What's wrong with Mandriva ? 22:29:55 oerjan: looks like your creation is getting attention 22:30:08 Sgeo: firstly, it's over-commercialised 22:30:11 also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit 22:30:12 err 22:30:12 s/ $// 22:30:14 you are back 22:30:14 ? 22:30:22 and thus mostly based around their company and the branding mandriva 22:30:31 seconldy 22:30:32 *secondly 22:30:33 -!- Guest19311 has changed nick to Cerise. 22:30:34 AnMaster: yes 22:30:37 nobody who knows linux uses mandriva 22:30:40 for a bit it was just me and pikhq 22:30:42 But PCLinuxOS presumably doesn't inherit commercialization from Mandriva 22:30:42 ais523, "were" not "are" 22:30:46 thirdly, its desktop is basically juts kde 4 22:30:48 so what's the damn point 22:30:51 ais523, when you said that you had been back for over a minute 22:30:52 it's just yet another crappy distro 22:31:03 AnMaster: coming back from the netsplit made me lag 22:31:07 Sgeo: considering pclinuxos = mandriva with a different logo, sure it does. 22:31:10 hm true 22:31:13 probably because I was in #nethack at the time and there were hundreds of join messages to send 22:31:32 the question isn't what's wrong with mandriva although it can certainly be answered, the question is what on earth does it have over ubuntu? 22:31:34 According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows 22:31:36 well I know how it is after a netsplit 22:31:46 ehird95, looking sexy out of the box? 22:31:46 often you end up splitting due to full queues 22:31:50 ubuntu has a huge, huge, HUGE community, is making advances in usability, ... 22:31:53 on the *server send* side 22:32:00 which is very annoying 22:32:11 Sgeo: I guess you just sit at your computer drooling all day instead of using it, but FWIW 9.10's default theme is appealing. 22:32:32 Ooh, Mandriva doesn't even use yum. 22:32:39 That's gotta hurt. 22:32:52 what package manager? 22:32:56 raw RPM, somehow? 22:33:06 ehird95, that made as much sense to me as "Debian doesn't even use rpm" 22:33:23 ais523: their very own wrapper over rpm 22:33:24 Hm, I guess yum is a thingy that works over rpm? That makes more sense 22:33:26 According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows <-- why are some of the UI elements on there translated to Swedish for me??? 22:33:37 AnMaster: moinmoin does that. 22:33:50 ah that explains it 22:33:53 (moinmoin, n. means "shitty wiki software" in hawaiian) 22:33:54 it is like two ones 22:34:08 from the word "moin", "shitty", and the word "moin", "wiki software". 22:34:19 "Sök" and "Innehåll" oh and a third one: "senast redigerad 22:34:20 " 22:34:22 great 22:34:26 those are: 22:34:42 search, TOC and "last edited" 22:35:51 oerjan, do you remember punch cards? <-- i vaguely recall there may have been some in the telecom building where my dad worked/works, back in the late 70s/early 80s. 22:36:02 "I would not call Clue (as well as Self BCT) a language, rather a machine with a complex behavior." --Oleg on a language just as valid as BCT 22:36:14 Oleg should really shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about... 22:37:26 who is this "oleg"? Sure I seen the name elsewhere 22:37:33 it's not that oleg. 22:37:36 in some other idiot context 22:37:43 ehird95, what "oleg"? 22:37:43 oleg 1 is on the esolang wiki 22:37:54 oleg being an anagram for lego? 22:38:00 oleg 2 is the uber-master-god of type systems, scheme, haskell and ocaml and he is smarter than you, full stop 22:38:12 oleg 2 is of http://okmij.org/ftp/ 22:38:21 he is awesome. 22:38:29 ehird95, and which of these ie the oleg that should shut up? 22:38:32 the oleg 1? 22:38:35 yah 22:39:25 ais523: yay 22:39:41 whoa this is some good music that was added to wesnoth since last I checked (about a month or two ago= 22:39:43 Oleg 2's code makes my head hurt 22:39:44 s/=/)/ 22:40:06 oleg should change his name to that, Oleg 2 22:40:12 so cyberpunk. 22:40:18 Someone gave me a command to download the Wesnoth music some time ago, but I forgot it :( 22:40:53 Sgeo, svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music 22:41:04 ty 22:41:15 * AnMaster is listening to "northern_mountains.ogg" atm 22:41:16 really great 22:41:32 probably ehird95 wouldn't like it 22:41:45 I have some Windows SVN thingy installed, so I'll just use that 22:42:35 Sgeo, it may take some time. the whole checkout dir is 245 MB. So half of that size need to be download (yeah svn doesn't even store the pristine copies compressed or anything...) 22:42:38 Why is this thing telling me 0 Bytes/sec 22:42:57 here we go 22:43:19 How often do they add music? 22:43:26 every second. 22:43:34 ais523: does enigma work in 9x? 22:43:37 Sgeo, varies. sometimes a few months, sometimes three in a single week 22:43:42 ehird95: I don't know 22:44:05 "windows 95 and later", according to the website 22:44:09 Sgeo, anyway, it grows overall slowly 22:44:20 try http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/Enigma-1.01.exe 22:44:25 "The operating system I currently use on my primary computer is Windows 95 OSR2. Furthermore, not only do I use Windows 95 extensively, but I prefer it to Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, and Vista." 22:44:31 So that makes 2 to 4 of them. 22:44:32 ais523, berlios eww 22:44:48 ehird95, "them"? 22:44:48 Crazy, these people. 22:44:50 Fun, but crazy. 22:44:51 How can Win98 be better than Win95? 22:44:56 well, that's where it's hosted, do you want me to magic it somewhere else? 22:44:57 erm, other way 22:45:05 Sgeo: The same way 98 can be better than ME. 22:45:06 How can 95 be better than 98 in anyone's eyes? 22:45:11 ais523, no of course not 22:45:13 the only good thing about Windows 98 compared to 95 is USB support 22:45:15 although, that is a big one 22:45:19 98 replaced the beautiful, usable 95 Explorer with 98's bloated shitfest IEcrap explorer 22:45:26 added a bunch of unstable IE ""integration"" 22:45:30 usb support 22:45:30 ais523, did windows95 even support usb at all? 22:45:31 and nothing else 22:45:35 you can get usb support for win95 22:45:36 AnMaster: no 22:45:40 just a simple double-click away 22:45:43 ehird95: ah, I didn't know that 22:45:43 ais523, external drivers? 22:45:47 it certainly wasn't out-of-the-box 22:45:50 there are tons of drivers, yeah 22:45:52 simple to install 22:46:02 anyway, AnMaster: them = people who use Windows 95 as a main OS and aren't hermits 22:46:05 ehird95, doubt it would be very well integrated? 22:46:07 It was in Win 95B. 22:46:13 AnMaster: it's integrated just fine 22:46:20 as in, able to handle all device classes and such 22:46:22 pikhq: 95B is with the stupid IE Explorer-replacement iirc 22:46:27 * Sgeo wonders if anyone still uses Win3.1 as a primary OS 22:46:28 OSR 2.5 did that 22:46:29 ehird95: Yes. 22:46:31 ehird95, replacement? 22:46:33 how? 22:46:35 OSR 2 is the last real 95 22:46:37 AnMaster: think 98's 22:46:40 oh 22:46:40 98's explorer = IE 22:46:44 95's explorer = <3 22:46:52 OSR 2.5 = IE explorer = not really 95 any more 22:46:57 ais523: that berlios isn't loading 22:47:06 ehird95: ugh 22:47:18 ais523: that berlios isn't loading <-- guess why I said "eww" about berlios? 22:47:20 try navigating from the directory? 22:47:23 supertux used to be hosted there 22:47:27 I know how horrible it is 22:47:34 and lots of downtime too 22:47:39 how good is supertux? 22:47:50 supertux is a fairly sundry mario clone 22:47:56 it's nice if you like mario clones. 22:48:01 ais523, hm? try it yourself. Not really working active on it any more 22:48:09 I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. 22:48:15 ais523: wat 22:48:22 The nice thing about Windows 95 is that you can run it wonderfully without any IE at all 22:48:25 just picking a random comment out of context 22:48:36 You can't use .chms, sure, but how many are there in 95? Barely any. You can't use Outlook, thank god. 22:48:47 But everything else just works, including modern Word versions. 22:48:51 There were some custom very messy USB drivers in addition to the OSR 2 USB support. And I think that didn't include mass storage support by default, you had to use a third-party generic-enough driver for that. Could be wrong, though. 22:49:03 ehird95, what about DS? 22:49:27 Sgeo: Docking station? It requires IE, I believe, although the DLLs I might still have from that stupid IE 4 installation I tried might still be there. 22:49:28 fungot: hi 22:49:29 ais523: despite sleeping in to 5:16. 22:49:29 Link me up, scotty. 22:49:49 ehird95, you need another link to DS? 22:49:52 Yep. 22:49:58 ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm 22:50:08 If it does work, then it's just a matter of putting the relevant IE 4 DLL next to DS (so you don't have IE 4 crap in your system). 22:50:15 Remind me to slap everyone who works for Wikia 22:50:26 Sgeo 22:50:28 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C 22:50:30 slap everyone who works for wikia 22:51:05 seamonkey illegal operation shutdown awesome! 22:51:07 That's a first. 22:51:29 what's #esoteric's opinion on Wikia, by the way 22:51:34 I need to know whether to like it or hate it 22:51:37 I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. <-- context please 22:52:03 AnMaster: someone making the hello world a link to a youtube video when publishing a hello world on a website 22:52:13 AnMaster: Wikia are, simply, evil 22:52:17 ais523, the Creatures wiki's opinion is hate it. They added junk to outgoing links, forcing most wikis to use a certain ad-filled theme 22:52:19 erm 22:52:20 ais523 22:52:40 junk to outgoing links? 22:52:47 And took the creatureswiki.com domain name for themselves 22:52:54 ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm <-- as usual 22:53:01 ais523: Wikia, for instance, fragment communities that want to split off because of their insistence on having about 5 ads per page (I'm not exaggerating) and forcing you to use the new, unusable Monaco theme. They say they want to split off, Wikia say: "You have fun. We won't have any links to you and we'll keep the wikia going." 22:53:13 ais523: And, that whole thing with the snatching creatureswiki.com and holding it from them. 22:53:15 ais523, yeah http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/ 22:53:20 ais523, you know how some websites have a redirect thing? They do that, so they can display ads when someone goes to an outbound link 22:53:23 nice status monitor 22:53:23 ehird95: I know that Wikia is one of the few sites that I cannot cope with visiting with Epiphany 22:53:26 I need AdBlock 22:53:26 wish sf.net had it 22:53:37 to bear to look at the thing 22:53:38 Wikia are one of the shittiest companies in existence; they have no empathy. 22:53:42 the ads are really obnoxious 22:53:43 with berlios you can at least know that there are stuff that is brken 22:53:45 broken* 22:53:50 At least they could be opaque about their evil-for-profit like Microsot. 22:54:09 AnMaster: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com 22:54:14 you're welcome 22:54:22 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/sourceforge.net 22:54:24 bookmark it :P 22:54:27 * AnMaster looks 22:54:46 ehird95, doesn't work. Maybe javascript? 22:54:51 ais523, ehird95 gave a very good explanation of what wikia's doing 22:55:00 The front page uses JS. 22:55:05 The inner pages don't. 22:55:07 ah 22:55:09 So just append the domain to the URL. 22:55:40 ehird95, anyway doesn't help to answer "is svn on foo down"? or "is ssh down"? 22:55:44 ehird95: that is a good site, although with an annoyingly long domain name 22:55:51 I tried about:blank with it, though, and it got confused 22:56:03 well, it tried to URL-encode the colon 22:56:04 which for the only berlios site that is *NEVER* down, is rather nicely displayed on http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/ 22:56:09 then said it didn't look like a website 22:56:35 ais523, edge case... 22:56:44 and not an important one at all 22:56:45 AnMaster, calling out ais523 for reporting on an edge case failure 22:56:49 and calling it not important WHAT 22:56:52 WHAT IS THIS UNIVERSE 22:56:55 it is scary and new to me 22:57:00 this is rather out-of-character for AnMaster... 22:57:02 WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE REAL ANMASTER?! 22:57:06 ehird95, of course there are important edge cases too 22:57:13 Are you an abducting alien or something?! 22:57:14 but this is just plain silly 22:57:17 Give him back! 22:57:20 ...actually, keep him. 22:57:23 I could get used to this. 22:57:24 so it fits nicely with this channel kind of 22:57:45 stop making my laugh so loud that I wake up people sleeping in the next room! 22:57:47 :P 22:57:48 * oerjan adds a {{fact}} tag to wp's Malbolge article 22:58:00 oerjan, why? 22:58:45 AnMaster: me making you laugh? 22:58:50 ok, you're *definitely* not AnMaster 22:58:57 ehird95, ais too 22:59:03 well, yes, but that's not odd 22:59:25 ehird95 and yes, why did you turn funny suddenly 22:59:37 ... 22:59:43 have we all been abducted 22:59:44 right, like 22:59:45 we're aliens 22:59:50 we abducted people in here 22:59:54 I abducted ehird95, for instance 22:59:59 then we wiped our brains to make us think we're them 23:00:14 I can think of no other simpler explanation. Occam's razor, I win. 23:00:56 I think I'm acting in-character for me 23:01:04 but I may be wrong, of course 23:01:09 yes, we had to put in a joke for ourselves, naturally 23:01:20 it makes perfect sense; what's the point of being just bewildered? 23:01:27 maybe we've never been amused before and this was the only way we had a chance. 23:02:05 ehird95, this is rather in-character of you now ehird95 23:02:10 well of ehird at least 23:02:15 not sure about the 95 bit 23:02:31 but yeah the occasional "weird OS" is normal for you 23:02:32 I'd ask if I'm acting in-character, but the question itself would be in-character 23:02:42 Sgeo, :D 23:02:52 Sgeo: :D 23:02:58 that was actually rather funny 23:03:02 unusually so for you 23:03:18 also unusually insightful 23:03:43 yeah he is usually pretty outsightful 23:03:58 so I would say: By not asking, and observing that, you are not atcing in-character 23:04:06 My brain hurts. 23:04:08 AnMaster: because i would very much like someone to provide a citation for it ;) 23:04:12 ehird95, why? 23:04:17 THIS IS TOO CONFUSING :P 23:04:25 oerjan, citation for what? 23:04:32 oh that 23:04:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:04:34 far up there 23:04:36 right 23:04:57 ehird95, ok that is not normal behaviour for you when things are too confusing. 23:04:58 :P 23:05:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:06 The sad thing is, I wasn't intending to be funny. I really was considering asking 23:06:40 I wonder why there is no TCO label on my notebook. There is on my desktop monitor and some other stuff like my keyboard 23:07:04 * oerjan is reading irc in spurts, so answers are a bit delayed 23:07:05 All I can think of when I see "TC0" is "THAC0" 23:07:12 total cost of ownership? 23:07:21 ais523, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification 23:07:27 * oklofog is reading irc without thinking, so answers are a bit incomprehensible 23:07:37 almost *every* computer monitor have one of those stickers 23:07:37 Also, misreading O and 0 23:07:40 oklofog: that's banana! 23:07:40 as far as I have seen 23:07:41 "sure, you can get a nice free keyboard from a shady open-source hardware dealer now. BUT AT WHAT COST?" 23:07:51 ais523, eh? 23:07:56 AnMaster: FUD parody 23:08:01 ais523, eh? 23:08:22 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain 23:08:27 ...I actually understand what ais523 is saying 23:08:29 ehird95 probably knows what I mean 23:08:31 Yeah, I'm not me 23:08:35 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets 23:08:38 i'm pretty sure AnMaster is the only person going eh right now 23:08:39 -!- jix has joined. 23:08:48 ehird95, "huh" 23:09:11 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain <-- stop being ehird 23:09:20 really really out of character for you 23:09:27 -!- mycrofti1 has quit ("leaving"). 23:09:29 oklofog: nonmeasurable sets are vitali important 23:09:31 what's up with all the characters 23:09:32 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets <-- ooh interesting 23:09:32 well, ok 23:09:41 oerjan: is that a pun? 23:09:48 vaguely reminds me of a seminar I had recently 23:09:56 ais523, well what FUD was you parodying 23:09:57 someone was talking about brute-forcing infinite problems in finite time 23:10:01 well,* 23:10:14 AnMaster: basically, the theory is that if you install Linux now it'll cost you more later, in things like training costs 23:10:14 oklofog: you will have to read your homework to find out 23:10:15 AnMaster: i need to find an example of two sets A<=R, B<=R s.t. m*(A \union B) < m*(A) + m*(B) 23:10:23 and come to more than the cost of Windows altogether 23:10:28 the reading is just so i can do that 23:10:29 ais523, hah. What has it got to do with hardware? 23:10:49 ais523, anyway are you seriously suggesting you never heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification? 23:10:56 oerjan: i have read it well enough to'd remember if there were such a term :\ 23:11:01 * Sgeo hasn't heard of it until now 23:11:02 AnMaster: it hasn't, that was the joke 23:11:05 also did you like my use of "would" 23:11:11 but you missed the joke because you missed the thing it was referencing 23:11:19 ais523, oh ok. don't see why the joke was funny 23:11:20 ais523: I thought you gave up 23:11:25 well if there was such a term, in the material 23:11:38 ehird95: I ungave up after you encouraged me 23:11:46 :P 23:11:47 but really, a joke that depends on a reference you don't know will never be funny 23:11:47 wait 23:11:50 i wasn't encouraging you 23:11:52 because the explanation would ruin it 23:11:58 oerjan: actually it is mentioned 23:12:17 * oerjan cackles evilly 23:12:27 because the explanation would ruin it <-- jokes explained explained 23:12:39 of course that goes far the other way 23:12:57 but it's just a small note at the beginning of the theorem 23:14:13 http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php 23:14:28 oerjan, same level as last I looked then 23:15:09 well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... 23:15:11 * ehird95 wonders... 2000 is nt just like nt 4, and nt 4 can run 95 stuff including a good portion of the explorer-type stuff 23:15:14 so... 23:15:29 you could have the software support of 2000 with the 95 gui, almost :D 23:15:35 keyword almost... 23:15:50 well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... <-- no I don't 23:16:26 i suppose the mezzacotta main page isn't very interesting most days 23:16:44 "The Dangerous Symphony" would be a good name for an SCP 23:16:48 ehird95, I remember when "software support of 2000" was sucky relative 9x 23:16:54 reverse nowdays 23:17:05 Sgeo: it's the name of one of the Battle for Wesnoth background musics, IIRC 23:17:12 Sgeo, scp? secure copy? 23:17:15 ais523, yes, it is 23:17:18 ais523, indeed 23:17:23 AnMaster, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com 23:17:23 so basically R/Q 23:17:28 and you have it 23:17:36 ugh, I can't decide whether Wikidot or Wikia is worse 23:17:38 R/Q + axiom of choice 23:17:47 ais523: Wikidot just suck hard, they aren't actively evil 23:17:53 I wondered about that "The Dangerous Symphony" 23:17:53 very strange name 23:17:57 AnMaster: Still, XP is where it's at for software support with an even vaguely NT 4-ish system; Chrome doesn't officially support 2000, for instance (though it works if you do an offline install). 23:18:03 ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil 23:18:06 But XP+95 shell sounds very unlikely to work properly. 23:18:09 have you seen the close box on it? 23:18:10 i think it's used implicitly here... 23:18:11 ais523: no, it's just incompetent 23:18:17 wait 23:18:19 although you want to restrict it to unit interval, so (R/Z)/(Q/Z) might be more accurate 23:18:26 ehird95: the terms of service ban using CSS or anything like that to remove it 23:18:29 ais523: they're not being manipulative sociopaths to lock people in, and forcing them to put 70 ads on one page, and locking them into one theme 23:18:31 of course AoC 23:18:38 ais523, there's a close box? 23:18:39 and they're not trying to basically take people's wikis away from them 23:18:44 they're just incompetent and bad at marketing 23:18:47 ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil <--- what one? 23:18:56 Sgeo: it doesn't work 23:18:58 AnMaster, go to any wikidot wiki (like the scp-wiki) 23:19:15 instead, it's a link trying to get you to buy a paid account in order to hide the toolbar 23:19:15 ais523, I don't even SEE a close box 23:19:19 Sgeo, hm? 23:19:20 top-right 23:19:24 I'm on it 23:19:24 oerjan: or you could just use an intersection 23:19:31 can't see anything weird 23:19:36 well apart from the whole scp wiki 23:19:39 oh for the axiom of choice thing 23:19:45 also, the individual pages in it (such as the history pages and what-links-heres) are unlikable 23:19:47 AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit 23:19:48 *unlinkable 23:19:48 [22:59] can't see anything weird 23:19:48 [23:00] well apart from the whole scp wiki 23:19:48 :D 23:19:59 yeah maybe, i'm not actually reading, too tired for that, more like tasting the proof 23:20:08 ehird95, yeah I remember seeing before. 23:20:20 come to think of it, "unlikable" is also correct 23:20:20 i read it once already, but usually takes a few reads for measure theory to sink in 23:20:20 AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit <-- hm? nothing unusual? 23:20:28 Sgeo, I'm using links2 btw 23:20:30 for browser 23:20:37 ..that might explain it 23:20:54 he did that intentionally. 23:21:01 Sgeo, I can try lynx or w3m too 23:21:05 oerjan: also i am closely following in your footsteps, was the only one to get homework problems 1 & 2 done1 23:21:06 *! 23:21:12 or if you want booooooring why not konqueror? 23:21:18 not about to start firefox 23:21:31 I'd imagine it would show in konqueror 23:21:35 * ais523 watches Microsoft's Get The Facts video thing 23:21:57 although i suppose i might be following even closer if i was actually interested in the nondiscrete stuff 23:22:51 mhm 23:23:12 "append fail count to end of command line (/fail=%1%) 23:23:14 " 23:23:28 wat 23:23:30 wow is that an inflexible API 23:23:33 microscript? 23:23:44 it's some auto-run-program-on-service-error thing 23:23:51 o_O 23:24:07 Sgeo, yeah it does 23:24:18 very off colour from the rest of the browser 23:24:20 trying to explain why IIS is more reliable than CentOS 5.0 23:24:22 so doesn't really look irritating or such 23:24:36 it means Apache, they said the OS rather than the app by mistake 23:24:38 the wikidot toolbar doesn't annoy me 23:24:40 Ok, I see the Close toolbar button now 23:24:53 Sgeo, no close button here 23:24:54 in knoq 23:24:57 konq* 23:24:58 i don't see it :D 23:25:02 AnMaster, go to another page 23:25:06 ehird95: that's against the terms of service 23:25:13 seriously 23:25:17 what a ridiculous rule 23:25:19 Oh wait, maybe you need to be logged in 23:25:19 ? 23:25:23 what is against the tos 23:25:23 Sgeo, yes I'm on another one. Be aware of that javascript is turned off. 23:25:25 completely 23:25:28 i don't see any close button 23:25:30 in konq 23:25:41 ehird95: doing something to your browser to hide the toolabr 23:25:45 i didn't 23:25:45 ehird95, are you logged into Wikidot? 23:25:47 no 23:25:54 screeny? 23:25:56 Sgeo, nor am I of course 23:26:13 I don't even have an account there 23:26:33 wait, they're trying to administer CentOS through the GUI? 23:27:10 http://imgur.com/2HLgi.png 23:27:38 what's obnoxious about it 23:27:38 ah, that's better 23:27:40 i don't get the big deal. 23:27:48 they're showing a pretty clear config file 23:27:59 ehird95: breaks standard UI habit 23:28:03 it does? 23:28:05 says who 23:28:06 in that, I normally aim for the bottom toolbar 23:28:16 ??? 23:28:16 adding another one confuses me and I have to slow down 23:28:21 bottom toolbar 23:28:21 ? 23:28:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:28:39 ehird95: as in, whichever toolbar is lowest on the screen 23:28:48 because I'm trained to look for the edges of client areas 23:30:24 tab bar, for instanec 23:30:33 nobody puts tab bars on the bottom 23:30:35 making it harder to click on the tab bar is not a good thing 23:30:37 of their browser 23:30:39 ehird95: I do 23:30:46 but the wikidot toolbar is at the top 23:30:48 not the bottom 23:30:51 so how can it slow you down 23:30:56 I mean, lowest out of the things on top 23:31:00 oh 23:31:06 it's easier to hit the bottom toolbar of 3 than the third of 4 23:31:08 dude, it looks nothing like a toolbar. 23:31:12 it looks like web page content. 23:31:33 it's toolbarish enough to fool my reflexes 23:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:40:17 "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif 23:40:38 fizzie, are you trying to blind us all? 23:41:13 bye, time to night. 23:41:17 -> 23:41:38 Sgeo: Okay, next time I try to remember to use http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/tcpip2.gif which is easier on the eyes, at least as far as colors go. 23:42:06 fizzie's trying to poison us with uglyui-poison 23:42:22 Would I -- http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif -- do such a thing? 23:46:01 back 23:46:53 wb 23:47:35 I think I've just thought of the first troll linux distro. 23:51:00 I love how dinky the 95 start menu is 23:51:17 Also, is it just me, or is the fact I'm abbreviating it to 95 signalling that my brain really likes this thing? 23:55:43 "I'm a non-free OS, not a number!" 23:56:00 :D 23:56:23 * ehird95 has embarrasingly not seen the prisoner. 23:56:40 * oerjan hasn't either. like with 99% of all other memes he passes on 23:57:42 * ehird95 realises something 23:57:56 today I have been putting in people's web logs that i'm using windows 95 :D 23:58:17 i'm sure all the statistics-gatherers will go "wtf" when they see that 1 figure, then pass it off as a forged one