00:01:05 Yup, saw that one a few days ago while looking to see if there already exists any BF interpreter written in Python 00:01:14 Uh 00:01:16 In sed* even 00:01:37 I made one which works sans I/O (well, output simply prints all of memory atm) 00:09:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:18 -!- _s_k_y_ has left (?). 00:41:19 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:43:14 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 00:53:38 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:56:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:35:16 -!- coppro has joined. 01:58:25 -!- supfoolz has joined. 01:58:30 hihi 02:00:14 -!- ludamad has joined. 02:01:40 !bfjoust Foolz (>-)*8(>[-])*20 02:01:56 Score for ludamad_Foolz: 14.7 02:03:26 !help 02:03:27 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 02:03:35 !help brainfuck 02:03:36 Sorry, I have no help for brainfuck! 02:03:42 !info 02:03:43 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null 02:03:55 !help 02:03:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 02:07:01 -!- supfoolz has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:39:27 -!- ciribot has joined. 02:45:49 -!- ludamad has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:05:37 -!- ciribot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:23:44 -!- Warrigal has joined. 04:02:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:25:50 -!- immibis has joined. 04:48:08 Hey guys have some sheet music kthx http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.pdf 04:48:18 Dankon. 04:55:30 * Gregor is pretty proud of this insane mess. 05:01:20 -!- augur has joined. 06:09:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:23:55 Gregor: is this your random music maker? 06:24:28 Yes. The one in my head. Which is not particularly random. 06:24:33 ah 06:24:51 can you make a midi? 06:25:01 I could, but I refuse to :P 06:25:04 You can have a .ogg if you'd like. 06:25:07 okay 06:25:27 http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg 06:25:30 * coppro can tell that would take too long for him to work out on a piano and, what's more, he lacks a piano 06:25:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:26:45 * coppro should get a keyboard 06:27:50 coppro, what then are you typing on? 06:27:51 :P 06:27:59 bbl, math test 06:32:46 coppro: So you hypothetically play the piano, minus the whole having one thing? 06:32:55 Gregor: used to 06:33:05 Seems like everyone "used to" play something. 06:33:09 indeed 06:33:32 very nice piece, though 06:33:40 Well thankee 06:33:42 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:34:20 (also, it would have been beyond my ability to play back when I did have a piano) 06:35:43 I especially like the 12/8 parts 06:36:20 Everybody who I send it to has a different preferred part. This is probably a good thing. 06:38:14 just one question - is the 9♪ notation common? 06:38:20 Nope, made it up :P 06:38:43 * pikhq suggests that Gregor perform his 11th opus 06:38:49 ... 06:38:56 pikhq: http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg 06:38:58 Oh, there's the ogg. 06:38:59 XD 06:40:04 Quite nice. 06:40:18 * coppro downloads the rest of them too :) 06:40:21 * pikhq follows along on the sheet music 06:40:27 coppro: I would advise that you do not :P 06:40:33 lol 06:40:36 Maybe op. 9 06:40:40 op. 10 is awful. 06:40:42 ok 06:40:44 op. <9 is awful :P 06:41:34 Gregor has a very low opinion of himself. 06:41:44 Only my music. 06:42:00 The 5th through 8th opuses are wonderful, as is the 10th. 06:42:08 The 9th I've not heard performed well enough to say. 06:42:26 In my head it's quite nice :( 06:42:34 yeah, the synth takes something away form it 06:42:36 *from 06:42:50 it's a spooky piece 06:43:16 As it turns out, relatively anonymous computer scientists have a hard time getting quartets to play his pieces :P 06:43:44 Surely you can find a better synth 06:44:14 or a worse one 06:44:18 I'd rather find better humans ^^ 06:44:30 it's not bad enough to be truly spooky, and not good enough to be good :D 06:45:44 Gregor: what program do you use? 06:45:50 Rosegarden. 06:45:57 neat :) 06:46:05 (And, by proxy, lilypond) 06:46:26 any chance I could get the file for 11? I might want to split it into bits 06:46:39 It's linked on http://codu.org/music.php 06:46:44 ok thanks 06:47:45 It's more than a bit wonko though, as I created it with notation in mind. 06:48:02 e.g. it has extra tracks for combining multiple parts in one staff. 06:48:07 ah 06:48:31 well, it's just that it would make great atmosphere music, just not the whole thing at once 06:48:54 10 is not terrible; it feels a bit random so far though 06:49:12 MIDIfied it's pretty awful. Could be better, but again, I made it for notation, not MIDI. 06:49:36 the banging bits are pretty bad in MIDI; probably sound better with real music 06:50:23 "banging bits" refers specifically to? 06:51:10 the quick repetitive chords near the start 06:51:23 (that's where the comment about random came from) 06:51:28 Ah 06:51:45 I like the rest so far 06:51:56 Upon further listening, I really ought to have just cut off the beginning X-D 06:52:28 other than that, I prefer 10 to 9 06:54:51 the second repetitive bit is much better. 06:55:03 (ignore the connotation on repetitive) 06:55:07 :P 06:56:34 Well, anyway, op. 11 is better than op. 10 :P 06:56:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:58:01 agree with you there :) 07:01:06 'Tis. 07:01:09 You definitely have some compositional talent :) 07:01:50 -!- adam_d has joined. 07:02:02 -!- Pthing has joined. 07:02:38 My brain, seeing that P* just joined, miscompleted it into pikhq, and I went "wait, he's already here..." 07:02:57 Took my an embarrassing amount of time to realize that the person who had just joined is, in fact, Pthing, and not pikhq at all. 07:03:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:03:11 Mayhaps this is because it's 2AM, and I ought to be asleep. 07:03:12 Herpaderpadoo 07:03:26 And now he's ehird. 07:03:46 just curious, anybody here program in ETA before? 07:04:33 Rugxulo: yes. I'm very familiar with writing programs with an ETA of 100000 years+ :P 07:04:53 i try not to program in terrorist organizations, personally 07:05:27 ETA as in the "ETANOSHI" ("Fungal toe!") variety 07:05:49 or whatever :-P 07:08:35 guess not :-P 07:10:21 programming befunge with your feet is not strictly recommended. i guess it's on topic though. 07:11:17 ETA ain't Befunge 07:11:27 although there's an interpreter ;-) 07:14:09 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:27:18 Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated. 07:35:25 -!- Rugxulo has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:10:49 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:10:51 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 08:16:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:40:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:47:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:54:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:59:22 great quote from fungot 09:59:22 ais523: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am, are you?! c'mon!! 10:01:12 also, looks like I got the first post today 10:01:18 * ais523 is glad that IRC doesn't really work like forums 10:05:01 wow, there was a jouster in here yesterday 10:05:04 BF Joust needs more love... 11:16:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:34:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:34:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:54:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:54:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:56:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:37:16 hmm... you can learn a lot from flamewars 13:37:26 Slashdot is currently in a celsius vs. farenheit flamewar 13:37:40 and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise 13:37:47 and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up 13:40:26 Kelvin is the standard. That and ed. 13:40:44 come to think of it, that's almost exactly the same argument in the two respective flamewars 13:52:14 100 was meant to? 13:52:41 I thought it was just the three 0/32/96 points 13:52:53 Deewiant: well, the 96 was meant to be 100 13:53:13 Was it? 13:53:42 Wikipedia doesn't say so, for what little that's worth 13:54:10 Just says he originally measured as 96 and this has since been corrected to 98.6 14:04:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:06:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:25:57 ah 14:26:49 8x42 is a great resolution 14:27:01 ... 14:27:17 Is that what you've got X at right now? 14:28:19 no, it's something ehird used in a hyperbole a few days ago 14:28:22 I'm reading logs 14:28:44 also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs 14:28:54 it's a lot shorter to type than the M-x version 14:31:21 And "C-M-%" is a lot shorter to type than "control-shift-alt-5", in addition to working even when your % does not happen to be shift-5. 14:32:15 yes 14:32:20 and when your meta happens not to be alt 14:32:38 I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was 14:32:45 most of Emacs' shortcuts actually make sense, that one doesn't 14:34:23 wow, and "vendekabibyte" /still/ has no Google results 14:34:34 they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously 14:36:07 It "makes sense" in the sense that it's an extension of the M-% query-replace, but that one doesn't really work for me. I guess you could invent some sort of vague justification on the % glyph, though; something like it being a stylized form of "x/y", standing for "replace x with y". 14:39:25 hi ais523 14:39:33 (and everyone else too I guess) 14:39:50 hi AnMaster 14:40:07 also, looks like I got the first post today <-- huh? "08:27:18 Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated." 14:40:19 AnMaster: in tunes-log time 14:40:31 oh. no idea what timezone it may use 14:40:42 I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing 14:40:49 it uses one of the US timezones, I think 14:41:37 and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise <-- what meaning? 14:41:49 AnMaster: freezing point of saturated saltwater 14:41:57 apparently it was set there to make it easy to calibrate thermometers 14:42:13 as with the level of technology Farenheit had, saturated saltwater was much easier to come by than distilled water 14:43:02 -!- jix has joined. 14:43:34 heh 15:03:02 and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up <-- what is 96 for F then? 15:03:56 AnMaster: human body temperature 15:03:56 which is an awful thing to base a temperature scale on, as it isn't particularly constant 15:04:16 I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was <-- not really. C-M-% doesn't seem so silly? 15:04:32 AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit? 15:04:38 ais523, yes and? 15:04:46 AnMaster: what other program uses that sort of shortcut? 15:05:20 ais523, hm. iirc Visual Studio used stuff like C-, release, press another key 15:05:24 isn't that equally bad? 15:05:35 (emacs has those too) 15:05:40 C-x C-c for example 15:06:05 to me those are both equally weird 15:06:06 those are less bad, I think 15:06:26 you can hold control with the little finger of the left hand and press x and c in a row with the second and third 15:06:33 making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type 15:06:38 C-M-% needs both hands... 15:06:57 ais523, it doesn't. However it is rather uncomfortable to use only one hand 15:07:29 thumb on alt. index finger on 5, little finger on ctrl, finger next to little finger on shift 15:07:35 not a good idea, but works 15:07:54 otherwise alt and 5 on the left hand and ctrl and shift on the right hand 15:08:14 (due to there being no alt on the right side, only altgr, which is quite different) 15:08:34 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:17:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:20:59 `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celcius 15:21:01 Example: convert 98.6o Fahrenheit to Celsius. 98.6 - 32 = 66.6 66.6 * 5/9 = 333/ 9 = 37o C. There is a mental math method to approximate the Fahrenheit to ... 15:21:13 >_< 15:21:44 oh 15:21:48 `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celsius 15:21:48 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit = 37 degrees Celsius 15:24:11 they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously 15:24:29 i had the impression google doesn't crawl the logs reliably at all 15:25:01 at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there 15:26:46 at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there <-- that is why you instead use grep locally 15:27:17 that would require me to download the logs, though 15:27:40 plus that lets you search for who said something, quite useful if you know who you were discussing it with but nowhere near when 15:27:41 bbl 15:32:40 I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing <-- duh, that would have been far too convenient and rememberable 15:32:48 cannot have that 15:35:54 :P 15:36:34 Afaik the logs uses some Americanish time format? 15:38:08 probably host local time 15:38:39 [16:06:32] making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type 15:38:44 What about us poor dvorakians? :< 15:38:56 they can remap all their Emacs shortcuts to the same relative places on the keyboards 15:39:03 (someone probably was mad enough to do that...) 15:39:09 Prolly 15:41:00 well that is true, C-x C-c is fast 15:41:13 (someone probably was mad enough to do that...) <-- pretty sure yes 15:41:19 seen an .emacs for it 15:41:29 * ais523 is reading up on the recent Reddit worm 15:41:52 something like redefining the keys, rather than remapping each individual key. then redefining self insert to insert the key that actually is on the key 15:41:58 iirc 15:42:16 because that way even those in various modes and such were properly remapped 15:43:05 yes, that would make sense 15:43:13 also, I love the concept of redefining self-insert-command 15:43:25 it's sort of, the command that makes Emacs an editor rather than an OS 15:43:54 there's a reddit worm? O_O 15:45:17 was 15:45:18 it's been fixed 15:45:30 basically there was an exploit in the parser that let people post arbitrary JS on link mouseover 15:45:46 and the JS spammed instances of comments containing such links all over the thread 15:45:49 also into people's inboxes 15:46:03 so after a while, there were loads of links full of hex all over Reddit 15:47:10 kind-of interesting, actually, as you have to write a quine to do that correctly 15:51:58 mhm 15:52:44 they should have made it so it advanced 1 step in a calculation every time it spread 15:52:53 so you could use Reddit worms to do parallel computing via people's browsers 15:52:53 ais523, how long ago was that? 15:53:06 AnMaster: yesterday, apparently 16:20:50 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:21:23 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 16:22:00 /usr/games/bin/gvba: Symbol `_ZTIN3Gtk6WidgetE' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking 16:22:00 interesting 16:22:01 never seen that one before 16:22:05 predictably it segfaults 16:22:19 I haven't seen that error before either 16:22:47 which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process. 16:23:02 (of course, since ubuntu isn't rolling release it is less likely to happen) 16:24:17 it fails in this way after that first message: 16:24:19 (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed 16:24:19 (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed 16:24:19 Segmentation fault 16:24:27 hm 16:24:34 well it was compiled in 2007 says eix 16:33:30 ais523, what do you think about this: 16:33:33 * app-text/passivetex 16:33:33 Available versions: 1.25 16:33:33 Homepage: http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Software/passivetex/ 16:33:33 Description: A namespace-aware XML parser written in Tex 16:33:36 *blink* 16:33:47 I don't have any opinion; should I have one? 16:33:55 ah, just read the description 16:34:00 ais523, that no one sane would write an xml parser *in* TeX 16:34:08 well, it's TC, isn't it? 16:34:09 would be a reasonable one 16:34:20 so then, which one of you made it? 16:34:37 ais523, yes, and it even has console IO iirc 16:34:44 oerjan, haha 16:38:11 oerjan: someone submitted an entry in TeX at the 2008 IOCCC contest 16:38:23 which considering it was a real-time routing task, was quite impressive 16:40:21 Meh, if it's TC it's doable :D 16:40:45 Then surely someone must've done BF in TeX 16:41:22 ais523: um don't those have to be in C? 16:41:39 why? there were lots of entries in other langs 16:41:45 Are there? 16:41:47 mine was in C because it looked like the best lang for the job 16:41:48 Didn't know that either 16:42:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:42:19 are you sure this is IO_C_CC ? 16:42:28 err... I meant ICFP 16:42:47 i suspected that 16:43:16 although with a TeX entry it sounds like someone else was confused... 16:58:21 even more fun, it won the judges' prize 17:16:18 Well, one thing works, when I search "internet protocol", manually type in the names of the protocols, and add a "port number" column, it gives the correct answers. But "color" for HTTP gives a URL, and "Command" for "HTTP" is "yes" 17:16:25 now I want a version of yes that works over the web 17:16:58 Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE 17:19:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:24:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:33:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:09:58 Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE <-- why not? The answer is obviously emacs anyway. 18:10:20 AnMaster: flamewars are bad 18:10:37 and it's one of the easiest ways to incite a flamewar in channels with a high percentage of Unixy people 18:10:50 I suppose you might get away with it on support.microsoft.com or somewhere highly Windows-centric like that 18:10:56 but even then, you'd get a bit of one I suspect 18:11:58 Gah, I hate the karma thing; I mentioned offhand yesterday in a conversation that's this new three-monitor setup is nice; today the biggest and newest monitor (the 24" 1920x1200 one) of the three went and completely died. 18:12:00 ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess 18:12:19 fizzie: is it under warranty? 18:12:20 fizzie, warranty? 18:12:30 AnMaster: just no, they're both awful 18:12:33 ais523, I already asked it 18:12:39 about warranty 18:12:46 anyway 18:12:46 besides, they'll recommend Visual Studio 18:13:05 which is apparently decent for Windows development, even though I've known it to take over 10 minutes to load 18:13:13 ais523, anything you *could* make a flameward about on support.microsoft.com (is that a forum or something?) 18:13:23 ais523, 10 minutes? what sort of computer 18:13:25 I think it has a forum, although it isn't a forum itself 18:13:28 As far as I can figure out, it should be; bought April 2008, and should be three years. Though I'm not quite sure what they'll do since the actual model is discontinued, and the newer ones seem very focused on the 16:9 1080-line things. 18:13:33 and quite a powerful one, it was doing stuff over the network though 18:13:38 Anyway, ais's warranty question was here before AnMaster's. 18:14:09 (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.) 18:14:09 fizzie, two second difference here :/ 18:14:09 in my favour 18:14:33 fizzie, won't they have to replace it with a comparable product? 18:14:46 and any screen is better than a dead one 18:15:12 I guess they will, but their view might be that a new 1920x1080 screen is "comparable" to a 1920x1200 one. But it doesn't work in this multihead setup as well. 18:15:55 Well, we'll see. Oh, and the chain has closed their nearby stores, too. 18:16:24 fizzie, well you will have to tell them that you need same hight due to using it in a "professional work-critical multi display setup" or something 18:16:46 Mission-critical. 18:16:51 ah yes that's the term 18:17:00 fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required 18:21:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:48:14 -!- augur has joined. 19:00:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:09:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:10:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 19:37:47 -!- lament has joined. 19:38:57 -!- coppro has joined. 19:43:44 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:41:07 -!- adam_d has joined. 20:43:07 hm 20:43:10 fizzie, there? 20:43:19 does backspace after ∉ change it into a ∈ for you? 20:43:32 any idea why? because selecting with arrow selects the whole thing 20:43:33 and such 20:43:53 Yes, it does; and it's probably made out of a composed character. 20:44:16 You know, ∈ and the compositing /. Those work a bit confusingly sometimes, w.r.t. selection and backspace. 20:44:29 fizzie, ah 20:44:30 Combining, I mean. 20:44:45 hm ⊊ 20:44:45 Not composing. Although I guess you could say it like that too. 20:45:15 That's a custom character; there's not really a / that'd apply to a part of the character. 20:45:59 Actually, I don't really know. If I copy the U+2209 not-an-element-of, ∉, directly, the backspace still removes the slash from it. 20:46:13 I guess something's doing some normalization somewhere, but I'm not quite sure who's responsible. 20:46:27 wow 20:46:38 Unicode characters are working badly on this computer 20:47:04 every line with a Unicode character has something like 4x the line height 20:47:17 The same thing happens with "does not divide" and "not parallel to" characters; ∤ and ∦. For those backspace here also removes the slash, even though those really aren't made out of the combining slash. 20:48:06 fizzie: I don't experience any of that normalization behavior in CZ, but I have noticed that with combining characters in the past 20:48:32 fizzie, what about the curly i for imaginary unit 20:48:38 and NOT blackboard bold one 20:49:01 Those all do have a "canonical decomposition" entry in the Unicode database (for the base character + combining long solidus overlay), so if you were to apply that decomposition you'd get that sort of backspace behaviour. Still, it's a bit strange. 20:49:25 I should probably look at the raw log and see if it sends out the decomposited form to IRC, or just the character itself. 20:49:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:50:05 I'm not sure what sort of curly imaginary unit there is; do you mean ℑ, which is often used to mean "take the imaginary part of something"? 20:50:23 -!- ehird has joined. 20:54:02 fizzie, I mean like the i but rendered as in http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/9/d/79d8d2ba30e45d4a35d3f6c1fed419ba.png 20:55:31 That's italic i. 20:55:44 Also: yo. 20:56:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 20:56:16 Yes, I don't think there's a special symbol; they couldn't really start providing italic forms for everything. The "letterlike symbols" contains generally things that are more... symbol-like. 20:57:06 Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝ 20:57:45 that's just a small serifed i for me. 20:57:50 not really italic at all... 20:57:57 Yes, it's not italic. 20:58:10 But seems I was wrong: there's a whole "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" block. 20:58:14 It's outside BMP, but it's there. 20:58:29 So you can use the U+1d456 mathematic italic small i: 𝑖 20:59:47 There's bold, italic, bold italic, script, "bold fraktur", sans-serif, sans-serif bold, sans-serif italic, sans-serif bold italic and monospace variants of all of [A-Za-z]. 21:00:31 bold fraktur 21:00:34 that's totally bad-ass. 21:00:38 Er, and also for [Α-Ωα-ω0-9]. 21:00:40 I'm naming my kid that 21:00:43 Bold Fraktur Hird 21:00:57 You're going to be a father?! Congratulations! 21:01:11 lawl 21:01:21 a father of a bold fraktur... IN YOUR SKULL 21:01:26 :| 21:01:42 weird 21:01:50 werd 21:01:51 those Greek letters didn't screw with the line spacing 21:01:59 nor did your mother. 21:02:22 you know, those are neither funny nor good insults 21:02:23 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.) 21:02:43 so if I spin them around they read the same? 21:02:44 holy fuck 21:02:46 that looks awesome fizzie 21:03:10 i'm going to type in that 21:03:11 ALWAYS 21:03:21 It certainly looks very 𝔞𝔲𝔱𝔥𝔬𝔯𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔱𝔦𝔳𝔢. 21:03:22 Please don't; I lack the fonts 21:03:39 Nice for 𝔢𝔪𝔭𝔥𝔞𝔰𝔦𝔰. 21:03:45 Deewiant: it looks *awesome* 21:03:50 fizzie: codepoints? 21:04:01 ehird: U+1d51e onwards. 21:04:15 Here it adds a lot of vertical padding to the line. 21:04:16 Rather, it I lack the monospaced fonts 21:04:21 firefox can show them 21:04:24 AnMaster: btw, they renamed the Software Store to Software Center 21:04:27 s/it I/I/ 21:05:18 ehird, ah good 21:05:44 Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝ <-- no circle here 21:05:50 Is there a better Windows X server than Xming, out of curiosity? 21:05:52 Deewiant: Looks like this in XChat to me, though that's really pretty small: http://zem.fi/~fis/florb.png 21:06:23 Your XChat falls back to non-monospaced fonts, I see 21:06:31 coppro: nope, why? 21:06:36 coppro: using colinux? 21:06:47 Looks quite similar for me in firefox 21:06:48 ehird: VM 21:06:57 not colinux, just a regular VM 21:07:07 you should try colinux, it looks cool. 21:07:14 Xming is the best, though 21:07:17 What's wrong with it? 21:07:30 nothing, just wondering if I was running a suboptimal variant 21:07:35 it's working great 21:07:44 I haven't tried the new versions of anything, but Xming used to beat WinaXe, at least. 21:08:06 running an X server on Windows >>>>> using a DE in the VM 21:08:30 this alone is why X beats native windowing technologies 21:09:07 bold fraktur <-- wow 21:09:35 Cygwin's X server was popular among the 3D graphics course people, since it correctly did stencil-buffer in remote-opengl. (The official "has to run on this" platform was FreeBSD, and all the Windows users wanted to test their homework remotely.) 21:09:44 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.) <-- ARGH dejavu doesn't! 21:10:00 I don't really know where my xchat picks those up. 21:10:12 Or you have a client that correctly falls back to fonts with symbols when they aren't available in the current one 21:10:13 Could even be the Mathematica fonts. 21:10:13 My font appears identical to fizzie's. 21:10:17 Nah. 21:10:20 I don't have Mathematica. 21:10:22 I have them here on Windows 21:10:34 xchat atm 21:10:35 I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package. 21:10:52 I don't think I do. 21:11:10 and while I haven't been the only person to install software on it, I can't imagine anyone installed anything with a fraktur font 21:12:21 fizzie, I checked all installed fonts, none have them 21:12:24 coppro, ^ 21:12:34 not even fonts I got from an OS X computer 21:13:10 I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package. <-- is that in ubuntu? 21:13:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:13:51 AnMaster: what os? 21:13:54 AnMaster: Stock Ubuntu install has it. 21:13:59 Or, well, maybe not. 21:14:01 http://imgur.com/XV6EK.png <- firefox does this too. 21:14:02 Install ttf-liberation. 21:14:14 Or liberation-ttf, rather. 21:14:16 coppro, Linux. Ubuntu atm 21:14:26 No. 21:14:27 Asztal: yeah, that's what I'm seeing. It's weird 21:14:32 AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-liberation 21:14:33 failing that, 21:14:36 sudo apt-get install ttf-droid 21:14:38 but it's probably liberation 21:14:40 I think it's to do with the font being used, not the symbols 21:14:54 Come to think of it, it's probably Liberation 21:14:56 since the symbols that TNR displays correctly are not causing that to happen 21:15:14 it's quite full and type-like, which is more of a Liberation feature than DejaVu 21:15:14 Unifont should expand onto the other planes 21:15:17 ehird, apt-get claims already installed 21:15:24 for ttf-liberations 21:15:26 for ttf-liberation* 21:15:29 anyone know how to list all installed packages? 21:15:33 I'll grep ttf- to see which I have 21:15:37 sec 21:15:40 The Mathematica fonts are non-free, I would say. 21:16:02 ehird: dpkg --get-selections | grep installed 21:16:20 Heh, I've just been using "dpkg-query -l | grep ^i". 21:16:30 should work too 21:16:37 I'll go with dpkg0query 21:16:44 get-selections can filter by pattern too 21:16:45 AnMaster: do you have ttf-mscorefonts-installer? 21:16:51 dpkg --list 21:16:52 if coppro has them on Windows, then... 21:16:53 seems to work here 21:17:15 ehird, no I don't have that one 21:17:19 AnMaster: isn't that just an alias for dpkg-query? 21:17:26 AnMaster: Well, install it; it'll get you Arial, Verdana, Georgia etc. 21:17:30 Just get msttcorefonts 21:17:30 coppro, maybe. I'm really not an ubuntu user 21:17:33 And almost certainly the bold frakturs. 21:17:35 coppro: same package 21:17:36 "dpkg --list" lists also non-purged not-installed things. (Like "dpkg-query -l".) 21:17:57 AnMaster: but yeah, "sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts" should do it 21:17:58 ugh, moving back and forth between a ThinkPad and other computer is highly annoying 21:18:04 ehird, hm 21:18:06 coppro: why? 21:18:16 This package exists to facilitate upgrades to ttf-mscorefonts-installer. 21:18:16 It can safely be removed from your system. 21:18:17 Ctrl key 21:18:18 hmm 21:18:25 AnMaster: ok, install ttf-mscorefonts-installer instead 21:18:29 ehird, yeah 21:18:35 I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too. 21:18:40 coppro: so stop using non-thinkpad computers :P 21:18:45 fizzie: your screenshot is identical to the text here 21:18:46 on ThinkPads it's not the bottom-left key; that's the Fn key 21:18:48 so it must be one I have installed 21:18:51 coppro: yes, I know 21:19:38 coppro: the modifier keys are small since the T43 because of the windows key; are you making any errors? 21:19:38 since I'm getting one... 21:20:03 Well, do you happen to have xfonts-mathml? (Iceweasel/firefox suggests that -- and latex-xft-fonts, which is another possibility -- though does not really depend on it.) 21:20:18 ehird: Not other than mixing the Ctrl and Fn up 21:21:30 coppro: aren't the alt/windows keys upsettingly small? 21:21:44 small, but not upsettingly so 21:21:47 fizzie: I forget how to check if I have it. 21:22:04 coppro: I'm intending to use it as my only computer, so if it's at all annoying I guess I'll replace the keyboard with the T43s 21:22:04 I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too. <-- first one is not found as ubuntu package as far as I can tell...? 21:22:06 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:06 *T43's 21:22:16 AnMaster: it's not that, I don't have it 21:23:04 AnMaster: It's in debian/non-free, I'm not sure what that would translate in Ubuntu, if anything. Maybe not. 21:23:25 ehird: U+1d51e onwards. 21:23:25 typo? 21:24:11 Not that I know of. 21:24:15 1D51E;MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL A;Ll;0;L; 0061;;;;N;;;;; 21:24:15 great, trying to paste it into oowriter crashed oowriter 21:24:27 >>> print u'\u1D51E'.encode('utf-8') 21:24:27 ᵑE 21:25:06 Isn't that \u for four-character hex constants? 21:25:07 http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf 21:25:19 print u'\U0001D51E'.encode('utf-8') instead. 21:25:23 ehird, no luck with mscorefonts 21:25:26 U+1D56C is the first one 21:25:27 Oh, BMP thingy. 21:25:29 tried all the fonts on the text in openoffice 21:25:32 AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-* 21:25:35 :P 21:25:41 also, openoffice is teh sux 21:25:41 coppro: I jumped directly to small letters, yes. 21:25:48 ehird, that's 138 packages 21:25:53 and I don't know where else to try fonts 21:26:03 character map? 21:26:07 coppro: Oh, and just the "fraktur" font, not "bold fraktur". 21:26:17 The only fraktur is BOLD. 21:26:25 * coppro is irritated at KDE's lack of UTF-32 support 21:26:28 no, there is non-bold fraktur 21:26:36 you mean UCS-4 21:26:39 I guess I should've said 1D56C indeed, since ehird explicitly specified the BOLD one. 21:26:45 U+1D504 21:26:57 coppro: I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THEM 21:27:02 ehird: actually, it would be more accurate for me to say 'multiplanar support' 21:27:08 coppro: yah 21:27:09 ehird, hm 21:27:22 * ehird realises that writing a script to translate text to bold fraktur would be work; gives up 21:27:25 KDE has a fit at anything past U+FFFF 21:27:36 KDE sux 21:27:41 sux dik 21:28:01 And I actually accidentally used fraktur (instead of bold fraktur) in the bits I spoke here; they're really quite similar. 21:28:02 fizzie, what unicode block 21:28:16 fizzie: oh. i recognize bold fraktur then 21:28:44 AnMaster: "mathematical alphanumeric symbols", didn't I mention the name up there? 21:29:23 Also I forgot to list plain fraktur and the double-struck font variant in that list of what the block has. 21:29:46 ehird, no font in the char map has it 21:29:54 tell me which one you claim has it 21:30:06 was looking at 𝔍 21:30:17 (fraktur capital j) 21:30:38 𝔑𝔬𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔩 and 𝖇𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝖋𝔣𝖗𝔯𝖆𝔞𝖐𝔨𝖙𝔱𝖚𝔲𝖗𝔯, side by side here. 21:30:52 Not such a huge difference. 21:31:03 fizzie, yeah, just boxes here 21:31:03 still 21:32:22 not in jsmath either 21:32:25 One of them looks bold. 21:32:36 Not visibly so on here 21:33:30 sudo apt-get install ttf-droid <-- nor that 21:33:40 AnMaster: Just install every font ever! 21:33:48 ehird, that's like 138 packages 21:33:49 no way 21:33:57 ehird, tell me what ones you have installed 21:34:37 ttf-freefont, perhaps? 21:34:47 already installed 21:34:50 ttf-opensymbol? ttf-dejavu-extra? 21:35:00 both already installed 21:35:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 21:35:29 ehird, check in your char map? 21:35:34 Finding out which font the characters come shouldn't be this hard; I copy-pasted that stuff to openoffice, exported as PDF, ran through ghostscript with the gazillion "embed all fonts" flags, and the result was a .pdf that displays correctly all right, but "pdffonts" lists just TimesNewRomanPSMT and FreeSerif, which don't sound likely candidates. 21:35:34 which one has it 21:35:47 FreeSeri. 21:35:50 *FreeSerif. 21:35:55 = ttf-freefont, prolly 21:36:12 ehird, can you verify freeserif has them there 21:36:24 since according to the char map it doesn't here 21:36:28 using jaunty btw 21:36:33 in case you are using karmic or something 21:36:56 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 21:36:57 Character map agreed. Upgrade to Karmic then. 21:37:08 Jerry: who are you. 21:37:08 ehird, karmic was buggy last I tried it 21:37:15 need a rock solid system 21:37:22 so I'll upgrade once it stabilised a bit 21:37:23 Karmic doesn't have ext4 bugs; is therefore >>> Jaunty 21:37:30 after it was fully released 21:37:34 coppro, what ext4 bugs? 21:37:39 Karmic is only buggy if you use the messaging menu. :P 21:37:43 Or Telepathy 21:37:48 well, Empathy 21:37:49 or OO.o with KDE 21:37:51 it might be a UI bug 21:38:07 AnMaster: the kernel sometimes locks up when deleting ext4 files on Jaunty 21:38:34 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise. 21:38:35 coppro, odd, never had such problems and I do use ext4 21:39:09 ehird, the fact that it networkmanager segfaulted put me off 21:39:14 yeah, they only manifested for me after a while of using Jaunty 21:39:14 Frigging font substitution thing is annoying. I don't really think gucharmap can tell where the fonts come from, since the character selection thing seems to only affect things when there are multiple sources. No matter what font I select, I get the same mathematical symbols. 21:39:25 at least gucharmap > kcharselect 21:39:38 SMP? What's that? 21:39:46 AnMaster: Jaunty segfaults sometimes too... 21:40:11 ehird, networkmanager? not here 21:40:16 In general, I mean. 21:40:16 But indeed, Karmic is unpolished, especially if you upgrade from Jaunty. 21:40:19 and "sometimes" is wrong 21:40:31 ehird, because it was "didn't even start at all, so was unable to reach network" 21:40:36 as in, segfault always 21:40:38 predictably 21:40:49 was some open bug about it already 21:40:54 forgot bug id 21:41:13 ehird, so I'm waiting for karmic to become stable before I even think about upgrading 21:41:17 outside vmware 21:41:21 or virtualbox 21:41:49 btw, I'm not kidding about OO.o on KDE. My bug was entitled "KDE file dialog is utterly broken" and no one has debated the appropriateness of the name; 21:41:51 Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped. 21:42:27 If I didn't expect shitty software to segfault and leave me to fix it I wouldn't be running Linux 21:43:08 * coppro has not seen a noticeable segfault problem on Karmic Koala Kubuntu (sorry) 21:44:00 Medibuntu Masturbating Monkey. 21:44:16 Eh, I'll just install fontforge, at least that should be able to definitely tell me what a font contains. 21:44:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:48:30 Nice messages in the terminal: 21:48:31 Help! Server claimed font 21:48:31 -dejavu-dejavu serif-bold-o-normal--13-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1 21:48:31 existed in the font list, but when I asked for it there was nothing. 21:48:33 I may crash soon. 21:49:31 "I may crash soon." :D 21:50:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 21:50:38 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 21:52:08 we must now carry out his sentence 21:52:08 ehird: but, we are far outnumbered!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! 21:52:11 I read that as "this sentence" 21:52:15 which was wonderfully hofstadterian 22:00:38 Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely. 22:00:45 Musts do other things now. → 22:05:23 It surely is .ttf... 22:05:39 Oh, I also have Humor Sans in ~/.fonts, but I highly doubt it's that. 22:05:48 (http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/03/xkcdsucks-is-proud-to-present-humor.html) 22:06:45 a cuddlefish? 22:06:53 I'm not sure about that part. 22:07:54 using different samples for caps and lowercase is a nice touch 22:14:30 Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped. <-- no tty-lyx here 22:14:59 as in, apt-cache says it doesn't exist 22:15:21 so, you know how you should never believe computer manufacturer's claims about battery life of computers? 22:15:35 AnMaster: ttf-lyx is not tty-lyx. 22:15:52 turns out that if I leave my new computer idle, it has more than 5 hours battery life O_o 22:16:00 fizzie, err ttf was what I wrote in ther terminal 22:16:02 the* 22:16:07 just not on irc 22:16:07 coppro: that's not much life for idling really. 22:16:27 Reading package lists... Done 22:16:27 Building dependency tree 22:16:27 Reading state information... Done 22:16:27 E: Couldn't find package ttf-lyx 22:16:32 I could easily drop it 22:16:37 turn off wireless card, dim screen, etc. 22:16:51 coppro, s/drop/raise/ 22:16:52 but it's a lot for my experience 22:17:02 err, yeah. Meant drop consumption 22:17:02 yes, but nobody idles a computer for 5 hours 22:17:22 Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely. <-- mi 22:17:22 ght indeed be a bitmap font 22:17:48 I don't think so, there's no trouble changing the size. 22:17:59 well then... 22:18:23 Anyway, it seems that "ttf-lyx" is in Ubuntu indeed, but only in karmic, not in jaunty. 22:18:34 Though I can't be sure that's what the characters come from. 22:18:50 Esp. if ehird doesn't happen to have that font installed. 22:19:05 indeed 22:19:12 Let's call it the Magic Fallback Font 22:19:27 although it could just be Pango shenanigans 22:19:52 it could be 22:20:12 like how all the blackboard bold math ones in there are the same for almost all fonts 22:20:19 according to the gucharmap thing 22:20:24 FWIW, here's what font-related packages I have installed; at least those with sensible names (i.e. ttf or font in the name): https://pastee.org/53k6b 22:20:25 out of curiosity, is there one of a) a C++ inteface to Pango b) a mechanism to use Pango with SDL? 22:20:49 AnMaster: gucharmap uses fallback fonts; so if one font on your system has it, it will be used for all fonts that don't 22:21:15 coppro, that is rather irritating if you wish to check what fonts have it 22:21:32 There's a SDL_Pango project, I think. Don't know if it's actually used or works or developed or recent or anything. 22:22:01 KCharSelect doesn't, but it sucks in other ways 22:22:07 such as not having the SMP 22:23:43 I don't have ttf-lyx. 22:25:57 hm there is ttf-mathematica4.1 22:26:07 Hey, I found a relatively nice font-manager which can view mapped glyphs for a font. 22:26:09 except that tries to download from wolfram and gets a 404 22:26:14 so it doesn't actually work 22:26:29 fizzie, oh? 22:26:46 fizzie: now that I think of it, you could probably hack something together using Pango 22:28:05 It's still just a "examine one font at a time" solution, though; I can't seem to find a "enter a glyph, find all fonts providing it" feature. 22:29:48 fizzie: no, I'm saying automate it by having Pango check to see if the font has the character 22:30:01 Yes, yes, you go do that. :p 22:30:41 * coppro has coded in Pango once before... and forgotten it, pretty much 22:32:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:41:09 -!- Azstal has joined. 22:41:35 There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help. 22:42:28 About the only thing the program told me is that it isn't ttf-lyx, because the eufm10 font in ttf-lyx has different-looking glyphs for those characters. 22:47:17 oh, gtkmm has a pangomm library 22:48:48 There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help. <-- what app? 22:48:54 fontmatrix. 22:51:29 fizzie, if the gucharmap shows the symbol you can right click it and see what font it is really from 22:51:44 Whoa. 22:51:50 I *so* didn't know that. 22:51:53 fizzie, just found out by mistake 22:52:00 And it is from FreeSerif indeed. 22:52:30 I should've just trusted the "pdffonts" output from the oowriter-generated PDF. 22:52:45 fizzie, but at the correct code point? 22:52:59 oh and all my blackboard bold are from dejavu sans or dejavu serif 22:53:03 which one varies 22:53:09 fizzie: pango_font_get_coverage could be used on each font in succession 22:53:12 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 22:53:21 Wellll, how should I know? All I know is that when I right-click one of the fraktur/bold fraktur fonts in gucharmap, it says "FreeSerif" down there. 22:53:56 fizzie: it took me two minutes to look up. It would probably take me 5 minutes to hack together a program to check a font for a character 22:54:26 coppro: I'm not sure how useful that is now, when it turns out gucharmap can tell where the one it displays comes from. 22:54:32 But sure, if you *want* to make one. 22:55:28 And for the reference, my FreeSerif font is from the ttf-freefont package, version 20090104-4. 22:56:19 ver 20080323-3 here 22:56:35 Well, there. 22:56:46 Phew, this was far too difficult. 22:56:47 fizzie, I prefer mostly stable jaunty 22:57:50 Then you'll miss out on the fraktur fun. Though I don't think it's that widely used in IRC. 22:58:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 22:58:23 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 22:58:40 fizzie, strange fonts: ttf-junicode 22:59:07 "Description: a Unicode font for medievalists (Latin, IPA and Runic)" 22:59:15 I didn't know "medievalists" was even a word 22:59:19 (valid word*) 23:00:01 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:57 ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"? 23:03:28 -!- coppro has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"). 23:04:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:05:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:47 fizzie, your system is called "eris"? 23:11:49 -!- jix_ has joined. 23:21:25 night -> 23:24:50 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:32:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:35:18 -!- coppro has joined. 23:50:34 Yes; i've gone Greek for the names here nowadays; I have eris, iris, momus, hermes, thalia, antheia, styx, charon, dionysus, tartarus, and maybe something I've forgotten already. They all have some sort of point, though they are a bit far-fetched. 23:50:37 Asleep also, anyway. 23:50:52 fizzie: can you please send a fraktur character to the channel? 23:55:29 coppro: Like "MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL A"? Unfortunately, that caracter doesn't seem to want to copy'n'paste here... 23:55:37 ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"? 23:55:47 mozplugger; don't bother, it's very buggy 23:55:50 Ilari: aye 23:55:53 it also absorbs all keystrokes 23:55:57 can't go back or close tab without using the mouse 23:56:04 so do all plugins :( 23:57:18 uh, most of them let you ctrl-w at least 23:57:22 or am I spoilt by Safari's plugins, which let you? 23:57:22 well, Cmd-w 23:57:39 all pdf plugins are so misguided, because they're not identical to Safari's.