< 1253750400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1253750461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omniscience + slight speech error. clear signs of evil overlordness < 1253750538 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway... I'm sure some states that have or have had biological weapons program have developed some real nice stuff in practice. < 1253750557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nice" < 1253750658 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding fat... Any really nice "healthy eating" propaganda videos shown in school? :-) < 1253750687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: hey you redid my beautiful subpage move, you scoundrel < 1253750704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yah, because subpages aren't enabled on the wiki < 1253750720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus SNUSP/Extensions reads simply as that in English; i.e. "SNUSP or Extensions", which makes no sense. < 1253750742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen pages named that way before, i had no idea they were anything special but i just tried to follow some tradition < 1253750755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably by noobs :P < 1253750767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course wikipedia doesn't use / much either < 1253750776 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253750777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mediawiki if you enable subpages a grey, small, slightly indented link to the parent page appears below the title < 1253750783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of "History of bla bla bla " pages, e.g. < 1253750783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., giving them semantic meaning < 1253750786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't neabled here < 1253750788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*enabled < 1253750802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: probably because hierarchies suck for organising. < 1253750803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things aren't enabled :( < 1253750855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esolangs wiki is pretty sad... arbitrary Graue policies, old MediaWiki, spam filter issues, lots of stuff disabled... < 1253750946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_India is one that comes to mind < 1253750968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that essentially _is_ hierarchical, just with words < 1253750983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's more fluid < 1253751000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"History of Bar" where bar is an indian company could go in one of two places: < 1253751003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bar/History < 1253751009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :India/Bar/History < 1253751013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even, for a huge history section < 1253751016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :India/History/Bar < 1253751023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using words, you can simply use a phrase < 1253751033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which eliminates the forced hierarchy < 1253751044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh it's part of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_by_country series < 1253751047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, that thing could be Rail transport/History/India < 1253751051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or History/India/Rail transport < 1253751055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or India/Rail transport/History < 1253751059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or India/History/Rail transport < 1253751060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1253751065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1253751576 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253751623 0 :Elench!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253751684 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253752667 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃" < 1253754306 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253754357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1253754510 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253754516 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253754536 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253754817 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253756979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1253758559 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1253758694 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1253759520 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1253760219 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-163-47-133.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253761125 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253761565 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253764180 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253764324 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253768745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253773094 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253774249 0 :immibis!n=IceChat7@125-236-168-3.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1253774465 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to combine XOR and NOT gates to make an AND gate? < 1253774485 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i don't think so < 1253774500 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about AND-NOT? < 1253774513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT and XOR are both linear gates mod 2, you cannot get anything which isn't from that < 1253774527 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1253774557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND-NOT? you mean NAND or NOR? if so yes, each of those can get everything and they are the only 2 to 1 gates which can < 1253774588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alone) < 1253774599 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND-NOT = (A and (not B)) although i realize that either requires or implies AND to be possible. < 1253774607 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ignore that question < 1253774630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A and (not B) is dual to A if B < 1253774649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it B if A < 1253774678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A then B = (not A) or B < 1253774744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is actually a theory of what you can compose from given gates, known as post classes, i investigated that for an article which never got published < 1253774794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a somewhat complicated but very pretty theory < 1253774843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice < 1253774865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recognize the notation for each class in wp though < 1253775022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A and (not B) is that T_0^infinity, i think < 1253775091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes A and (not B) = not (if A then B), so that overstriked -> < 1253775174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR and NOT is what wp calls the class A < 1253775182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, *clone < 1253775364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except it uses equivalence and 0 for the base) < 1253775372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think that's equivalent < 1253777399 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253779199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1253779200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1253779717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1253779931 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253782128 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253783099 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253786608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We hope make this a night that you want to forget but your colleagues will remind you of for the rest of your life." -- from the recently emailed note about the combi-Christmas-party for the three computer-science-related departments here. < 1253786692 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Light travels faster then sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak" < 1253787100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1253787127 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1253787127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1253787296 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1253787319 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-223.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253787319 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253787729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hehe < 1253789101 0 :ttm_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253789236 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1253790614 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p5B137B04.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253794257 0 :ais523!i=93bce47c@gateway/web/freenode/x-utwhlugcgulxpcas JOIN :#esoteric < 1253794445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1253794837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253795071 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1253795740 0 :Tinned_Tuna!n=danny@94-195-251-193.zone9.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253796200 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-46-208.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253797022 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253797200 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253797709 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d901ee@gateway/web/freenode/x-panptvevybxodxog JOIN :#esoteric < 1253800456 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253800470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, wow, Ubuntu sucks at hibernation < 1253800489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes about 30-45 seconds to hibernate, and about two minutes to go from grub to the previous state < 1253800609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/intel-unveils-light-peak-10gbps-optical-interconnect-for-mobile/ < 1253800621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10gbps usb? yes < 1253802605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I act to mitigate, redesign, and occasionally destroy the offerings of users who think that a particular "breakthrough" or "notable idea" deserves more consideration than it has gotten in the academic world. Such grandstanding is forbidden by a variety of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (WP:V, WP:SOAP, WP:NOR, WP:FRINGE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOT, and WP:REDFLAG to name just a few). Wikipedia is inherently a non-innovative reference work: it stifles creativity < 1253802606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and free-thought. If Wikipedia had been around at the time of Galileo, his ideas would have been subject to my incisive commentary and editorial braggadocio -- even if I agreed with him. I am a status quo promoter. NPOV-PUSHER.]] < 1253802618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think there'd be a way of explaining all that without sounding like a fascist dick. < 1253803040 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253803585 0 :ais523!i=93bce480@gateway/web/freenode/x-bxkpvxiytabykzsg JOIN :#esoteric < 1253805101 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-223.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253805237 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-47-133.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253805402 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1253805406 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1253805965 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253806881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253807037 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1253807084 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253807267 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1253807645 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1253809753 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253811162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION upgrades to Karmic Koala alpha < 1253811173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What fun is Ubuntu without instability?!?!?! < 1253811603 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@80.13.78.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253812085 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-172-5-91.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253812982 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253813371 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1253813499 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-064-038.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1253813694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu upgrader, are you really removing Bitstream Vera? < 1253813695 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253813695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1253813731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253813967 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-166-169-194.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253814349 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253814427 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253814430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Xming < 1253814683 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253815400 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-064-038.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1253815572 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253816460 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253816472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test. < 1253816552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253817596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253817766 0 :Tinned_Tuna!n=danny@94-195-251-193.zone9.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253818933 0 :ehird!i=5b6949aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-plvfdtywahqyyycz JOIN :#esoteric < 1253818979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My condensed impression of Ubutnu 9.10 "Karmic Koala" alpha 6: Hey, this is kinda cool. The bugs can probably be ironed out in three or four months, say, and this'll be a really polished new release. ...What do you mean, it's coming out next month? < 1253819222 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253819236 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song. < 1253819293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly doesn't feel like this OS has been maturing for 26 years. < 1253819360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, I have discovered yet another form of joy only known to ridiculous programmers. < 1253819365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joy of unexpected generality! < 1253819416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have an idea for one specific thing; a little bit of polish or whatever, a little bit of code to bring some stuff together. Later, you think "oh. actually, we could do (big)N things this way". Yay, now your job is harder! < 1253819431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253820283 0 :ehird!i=5b6949aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-xeegybdqijjllzvj JOIN :#esoteric < 1253820292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located? < 1253820294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: South Africa < 1253820296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253820657 0 :impomatic!n=John@nat66.mia.three.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253820680 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1253822838 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253822861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1253822972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo but < 1253822973 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but < 1253822977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^echo butt < 1253822978 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt butt < 1253823014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++>+.<.>. < 1253823028 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1253823374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1253823489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm are you good at latex? < 1253823523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I've written a fair bit of it, but I'm certainly no LaTeX guru. < 1253823605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an issue with equations. Basically, is there any "better" way than \begin{cases} ... \end{cases} to write a system of equations. After all cases is for two column multi-case definitions < 1253823626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for equation systems it works if you leave the second column empty < 1253823645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typically use \begin{align*} for simple cases < 1253823668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how does that work? Also what is "simple" here? < 1253823746 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253823780 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"simple" is the kind of stuff where I don't feel the need for cases or array or the like. < 1253823789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've used align too. < 1253823797 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::qa < 1253823800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah < 1253823873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you add the one sided { for that though? < 1253823912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My answer would be "you don't", but maybe fizzie has a better one. < 1253823959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, actually, that's my answer too. I haven't really used the one-sided { except for very cases-friendly things. < 1253823998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't want the two-column cases stuff, you could possibly use array instead. < 1253824119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, leaving the second column empty still looks odd when you have stuff like {blah <=> {blahblah (hope this ASCII-isation is readable) < 1253824139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it seems to leave some space for it < 1253824151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus abusing cases doesn't work well < 1253824155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a single-column array, then. < 1253824163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, maybe < 1253824234 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've also done something like \begin{array}{rcl} foo &=& bar \\ baz &=& quux \end{array} when I've needed something align-like but as a subpart of a larger math mode piece. (Though that needs some manual whitespace here and there unlike the amslatex 'align'; it's possible they provide something for this purpose too, though.) < 1253824261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, I've done that too. < 1253824329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, yes, amslatex seems to have an "aligned" environment, which can be used as a component like that. < 1253824342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can stick {s around it. < 1253824397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds familiar; maybe I've used that sometimes. < 1253824404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So something like \left\{ \begin{aligned} x &= foo \\ y &= bar \end{aligned} \right. should give you a nicely typeset "{ x = foo, y = bar" equation system with the =s aligned vertically. < 1253824426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253824498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course with align you can put the &s at the beginning of the rows if you just want left-aligned on-top-of-each-other equations. < 1253824526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then you might as well use displaymath. < 1253824540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok this seems to work: < 1253824542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$\left\{ \begin{aligned}2a+b=0\\ < 1253824542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3a-5b=0\end{aligned} < 1253824542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\right.$ < 1253824561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the difference between aligned and aligned* btw < 1253824573 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbering, presumably. < 1253824594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that was just a short test case, the real thing I need this for is way way larger) < 1253824594 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure what an aligned* would do, though, since the numbering comes from the "top-level" math environment. < 1253824598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah, but that doesn't make sense outside a display formula < 1253824614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, only at top level < 1253824641 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see an "aligned*" environment described in this thing, but maybe there's some special variant. < 1253824679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what is the alignat thingy hm < 1253824709 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you're not going to use a & anywhere in your equations, I think \begin{aligned} ... \end{aligned} is essentially equivalent to \begin{array}{c} ... \end{array}. < 1253824764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And alignat lets you specify the space between rows. < 1253824777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err between rows? < 1253824801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nno, actually it just lets you specify the number of columns there. < 1253824820 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1253824843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh they are centered < 1253824854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, because you didn't tell it where to align them. < 1253824860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need the rows left aligned < 1253824869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want left-aligned, just stick a & in the beginning; it'll align those points. < 1253824879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253824880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why you're using align, after all. < 1253824902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, use a \begin{array}{l} ... \end{array} instead of {aligned} there. < 1253824917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll probably do pretty much the exact same thing in this case. < 1253825537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song. <-- karma chameleon < 1253825556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is what I was referring to. < 1253825590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't clear how serious you were < 1253825598 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1253825719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:24:52 Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located? < 1253825722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:24:54 A: South Africa < 1253825748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems unlikely. i assume you saw about the recent pigeon test... < 1253825760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1253826069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :D < 1253826070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any idea if it may even be possible to get a circle around some number in math mode? < 1253826153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a box acceptable? < 1253826175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so: \fbox{$\displaystyle $} < 1253826241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it would need to be inside another formula, but that seems to have the entire formula inside. < 1253826242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hm < 1253826252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no I really need circle here. < 1253826284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can put that wherever you like. < 1253826302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, box with very rounded corners might be acceptable < 1253826322 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't help you there. < 1253826339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253826345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you really *want*, you can do some manual drawing. < 1253826353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like what I did with those extra-wide hats I needed. < 1253826369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\widehat isn't good enough? < 1253826386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I needed wider; even wider than the ams widehat, which is wider than the standard LaTeX. < 1253826391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah. What about arrows between two rows in an augmented matrix. The arrow going on the outside on the right between, say, row 5 and 7 or such < 1253826400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue where to even start looking < 1253826417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had assumed that one was freely expanding... < 1253826435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Unfortunately, no; it has limits too. < 1253826479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not quite sure what sort of an arrow you want here, actually. < 1253826513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, let me find an example < 1253826559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great that crashed firefox.. < 1253826614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In fact: "If you use the amsfonts package (and the ams fonts) you get a wider wide hat, but it is still not very wide. Alternatively (As you would have known if you were a member of UKTeX as it was described in the last Baskerville) The rather nice yhmath package of Yannis Haralambous provides much bigger wide hats tildes and similar widgets. " < 1253826622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And even the yhmath hat was not wide enough. < 1253826661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I had to use savebox'd picture environment manually-drawn hat and \accentset from the accents package to make it work as a math mode accent. < 1253826769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how wide was this hat? < 1253826806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The hats are in http://zem.fi/~fis/hw.pdf page 31; and the blue hat on page 32 is the widest hat that the amssymb hat can do. < 1253826864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They look a bit different than the "real" hats, because it's just a ^-shaped wedge with a uniform-thickness line, while the real hats are a bit thicker in the middle. But on paper they weren't that bad. < 1253826883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and all the text is in Finnish. < 1253826884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the gnome pdf viewer, how do you select an area as an image < 1253826890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than select text < 1253826938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evince, you mean? Not that I know the answer. < 1253826949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe that is the name of the app < 1253826955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh can't find it *uses kpdf* < 1253827007 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should area-selecting do? You mean it can export regions as raster images like that, or something? < 1253827016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah < 1253827027 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253827049 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "GNOME Shell" window manager/virtual desktops/launcher/task switcher is quite perplexing. < 1253827084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ok I mean like in http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ < 1253827181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I know that thing was produced with pdftex (according to properties of pdf) but don't know who made it. And reason I didn't want to re-upload whole pdf (you need to login to the uni web system to reach it) was that it would probably violate even more copyright or such. < 1253827222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egh, that doesn't look very friendly to typeset unless you happen to have a package exactly for that. I guess you could just put a correctly-sized \begin{picture} ... \end{picture} in a mbox there and use the arrows it provides, but that sounds like a lot of work. < 1253827227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and those round things aren't very round there yeah. I was looking for similiar arrows but better (more like you would write on a paper) circles. < 1253827260 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1253827279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That whole image looks very messy, since the matrices aren't aligned. And isn't that vertical separating line supposed to be unbroken? < 1253827282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you mean a package for illustrating solving linear equations written as augmented matrixes? :D < 1253827296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You never know what those LaTeX freaks do. < 1253827302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GNOME Shell does, at least, make virtual desktops not a complete and utter inane waste of time by renaming them to Activities and letting you create/destroy them with a single click. < 1253827305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes it is unbroken in evince, but not okular < 1253827311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course this is all very alpha. < 1253827325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was what I used for the picture bit due to evince not having "copy as picture" < 1253827341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also where it is broken in okular changes with zoom < 1253827373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though for a super-alpha this thing sure is high on graphical polish. < 1253827385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, showing properties for the pdf in question shows that it was produced with "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4" < 1253827452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given the general non-polishedness of that thing, I would guess it's just manually drawn arrows with picture or some-such. < 1253827459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same could actually apply to the circles. < 1253827472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't sound a very pleasant thing to write, really. < 1253827487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh I think I know the reason... okular says Helvetica is used from /usr/share/fonts/... but evince claims helvetica is embedded. Which seems rather strange < 1253827501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the broken lines that is) < 1253827523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evince uses poppler, fwiw. < 1253827524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it looks a lot more polished in evince though < 1253827534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so does okular iirc. < 1253827535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So before hatin' on GNOME, check that you want to insult poppler. :P < 1253827543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, but not kpdf. < 1253827550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also I was insulting okular. Not evince < 1253827558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure about kpdf? < 1253827613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kpdf uses xpdf or something. < 1253827623 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253827624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on xpdf. < 1253827637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if it inherits the shitty evil-bit content restrictions compliance. < 1253827683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as I told you last time you asked that (some weeks ago): There is an option to turn that on and off < 1253827684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like poppler's not based on xpdf too. < 1253827690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and popler is based on xpdf iirc? < 1253827692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, argh! < 1253827707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but kpdf might not inherit the option. < 1253827717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's inherently crappy code that shouldn't be there, so to hell with that. < 1253827721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poppler is the library xpdf uses. < 1253827729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it got seperated from xpdf recently) < 1253827729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in xpdf it is not an option iirc? Well a compile time one < 1253827734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that changed recently < 1253827750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for kpdf it is easy to reach under settings < 1253827790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: xpdf does not use poppler afaik. < 1253827796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poppler is a fork of xpdf's rendering library. < 1253827825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with one of the main focuses being glatform^Wklatform^Wetc integration, so I doubt oh-so-very-minimal xpdf would adopt it.) < 1253827879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could swear my xpdf uses poppler. < 1253827891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks < 1253827903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine most certainly links against it. < 1253827909 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d901ee@gateway/web/freenode/x-jeuhvvduvvrpnasz JOIN :#esoteric < 1253827909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patched? < 1253827928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xpdf has a compile-time option to use it now. < 1253827929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it. < 1253827935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Unexpected. < 1253827978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xpdf mentions it. < 1253827984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. The wikipedia page does. < 1253827984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yay, I ran compiz when running gnome-shell and now have a WM with no way to start, e.g. the panels. < 1253828003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Many programs (including Xpdf, itself) can use poppler as their backend renderer[3]." -- wikipedia://Xpdf < 1253828020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia:// is not and shouldn't be a protocol. < 1253828030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Erm. The wikipedia page does. <-- yeah wikipedia is defined as being true. So ./configure --help is LYING < 1253828040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you fail at URIs. < 1253828042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253828045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you didn't even read what he said. < 1253828062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If "fail at" means "understand the structure and rationale of", then yes. < 1253828065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I just copied wrong line < 1253828072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant to copy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it. < 1253828076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URIs do not map to protocols at all. < 1253828079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but somehow ended up copying wrong < 1253828083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, certain of them do. < 1253828091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "wikipedia://" is simply wrong. < 1253828094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isbn: doesn't, though. < 1253828099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am well aware. < 1253828101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wikipedia:// is simply unspecified. < 1253828114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Your pedanticism is stupid, because the part before : in a URI is known as the protocol. < 1253828126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. xd < 1253828135 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is. < 1253828168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that unpolished pic ends up looking good when printed hm < 1253828253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gasp; printers have a high enough DPI that you don't need to antialias. < 1253828254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking. < 1253828293 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Displays have something like 100DPI, printers can easily be 1200DPI... < 1253828297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Flip fnip fnop" < 1253828298 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you end up wanting to draw stuff manually, before embarking on a magical \begin{picture} adventure, you might want to check out xypic too. It's a bit more complicated, but it has a "xymatrix" environment, which at least lets you draw things between matrix cells; it could maybe be abused for that too. < 1253828323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The canonical display resolution is 96PPI. Cheapo printers are like 300-600DPI, decent ones 1200DPI+. < 1253828327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, atm I'm actually considering pstricks. Of course that could well be even worse < 1253828339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why are you using latex? < 1253828342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's certainly more flexible than picture. < 1253828356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what are you suggesting instead? < 1253828361 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"mov.i #1,1" < 1253828394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, what are you trying to do? < 1253828405 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253828446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nicely formatted math in a document consisting of roughly 5 pages. About 1/3 of that would end up as equations < 1253828453 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-def monitors have DPI somewhere in neighborhood of 200... < 1253828456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and my handwriting really sucks < 1253828459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes folder on desktop with Nautilus, creates fuck.sh, puts inside "sh", *cackles* < 1253828465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: use LyX or something. < 1253828481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: 200PPI is very rare; I only know of the two IBM monitors around 220PPI. < 1253828489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, duh I am using it. But I ran out of it's capabilities here... < 1253828491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff like 170PPI is in phones and shit. < 1253828498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I'm using raw latex inserts in it < 1253828501 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, high-def monitors are very rare. < 1253828513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: The highest I know is the 1600PPI MyVu Crystal thingies that they project onto glasses that cover your eyes, so you can watch movies and shit. < 1253828520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's .5" and 640x480.) < 1253828540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OpenOffice equations or something? LaTeX is a bitch to write. < 1253828564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, can it do stuff like http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ but that looks nice? < 1253828573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not *as* nice. < 1253828575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phones do go up to something close to 300 PPI now. < 1253828592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um "as nice"? what are you on... That pic does look quite horrible < 1253828604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, Howso, apart from those circle things? < 1253828617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the gaps in several of the lines for example < 1253828635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, true. < 1253828658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, look at the first equation in the last line, look at the arrow at it. Look at the upper corner on that arrow line. See the gap? < 1253828660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Gah. That's painful typesetting. < 1253828665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing would benefit from a bit of alignment too, but that should be very doable with LaTeX. < 1253828674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, true."; i.e., yes, I can see. < 1253828676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes. Now do that well please! < 1253828691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I meant the [ being broken first time around < 1253828699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1253828703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX. < 1253828716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and alignment is easy yeah \hphantom{} and \vphantom{} < 1253828724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used both inside equations already today! < 1253828738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ex-Chat" < 1253828743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Matrices are easy, but the arrows less so. < 1253828759 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253828784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253828803 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253828814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX. <-- according to the properties of the pdf it was from it was created by "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4" < 1253828825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that could just be user error < 1253828841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I don't even know how to get it as well as that level so yeah... < 1253828876 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably typeset that whole thing inside a \begin{align*} to get the overall alignment done easily, then the amsmath "matrix" environments to typeset the individual matrices, and a \mbox{}'d picture/xypic/pstricks manually-drawn bit to the right of each matrix containing the circled numbers and arrows. Though the arrow position tweaking won't be very pleasant. < 1253828879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it does look a lot better in evince though. okular messes it up much more < 1253828890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like the "-1/2" and "--1" and the horrendous alignment suggests major TeX fail. < 1253828943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes, And I do know how to do the matrixes easily enough. Something like: [\begin{array}{ccccc|c} < 1253828957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that was too much < 1253828962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\begin{array}{ccccc|c} < 1253828963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1253828979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the ams matrix envs, not array; they do a lot better (i.e. less) whitespace in there. < 1253828982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then \left[ and \right] < 1253828983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around < 1253828992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm interesting < 1253829056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that means dropping lyx wysiwym though since lyx doesn't seem to support that specific env < 1253829077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's insert matrix is what ends up as arrays < 1253829078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1253829123 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "bmatrix" in amsmath which typesets the [...] delimiters automatically and well. < 1253829131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, where is the --1? < 1253829153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the ...? < 1253829167 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The [ and ] automatically, I mean. < 1253829169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253829226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though since the ams matrices don't have explicit column specifiers, I'm not entirely sure offhand how to do the separating vertical line there. I'm sure it's possible, though. (Not that you couldn't get entirely reasonable matrices with array too.) < 1253829227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Third line, the scaling operation. < 1253829229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well ok sound good, but those manual [] outside doesn't cause a lot of issue really since that is wysiwyg editing anyway. And yeah the lyx generated source looks quite painful < 1253829253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, looks like a long minus? < 1253829257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1253829267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, rather than two separate dashes < 1253829270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1253829283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh you didn't mean two separate dashes with -- ? < 1253829294 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253829297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it should really be a short minus dash in all those cases < 1253829305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant a long dash, and that is written using ASCII with --. < 1253829311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for -1/2 on last line < 1253829326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(short that is) < 1253829330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah maybe < 1253829358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What it *should* be is the math mode minus, but it looks like it's outside math mode, with that one long dash and three short ones cheerfully mixed together. < 1253829373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that pic uses | for the line rather than a full line < 1253829392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess whoever it was just inserted an extra column with | in it < 1253829515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw what about underlining, I used bold instead (looks a lot nicer, but the original pic is intended to illustrate something that is plausible to write with a pencil... and bold really isn't) < 1253829569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bold is just fine. Or did you want to know how to underline those? < 1253829619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do end up using the ams matrices (you can try replacing one array with them to see if they make any difference) and still want the vertical column-separating line, http://texblog.net/latex-archive/maths/amsmath-matrix/ will be helpful. < 1253829659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah I wanted to know how to underline < 1253829677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :texblog heh < 1253829717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\underline{xx} would be my guess, but I don't quite remember. It would be a reasonable complement to the \overline{xx} I know exists in math mode. < 1253829736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that overbar/underbar? Can't ever remember without looking up. < 1253829753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if you mean that using {cc|c} kind of thing? Yeah? Same as usual then? < 1253829804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aligning with minus sign sticking out in front would be nicer, didn't manage that yet without lots of \hphantom kind of stuff < 1253829847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with that tweak the matrix envs will accept the usual {ccc|c} thing. Admittedly there's not much benefit from using them (over an explicit array) except that they have those automatic delimiters (a minor thing) and they decrease the huge horizontal spacing a bit (maybe a matter of taste). < 1253829861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, \underbar. Yay for lyx completion suggestions as you type \ in math mode < 1253829937 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wunderbar. < 1253829952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253829953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this sounds familiar but I can't really identify it < 1253829976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: German adjactive for en:wonderful. < 1253830078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not immediately obvious how to easily do "center numbers but ignore the minus sign"; it is reasonably easy to do "left-align numbers but ignore the minus sign" by using two columns in place of one, with the other column containing only the minus signs. < 1253830135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and some horrible adjustment < 1253830152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah center + ignore minus would be nice < 1253830157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What horrible adjustment? < 1253830173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for the column spacing < 1253830189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that there is less space between minus sign and number column < 1253830199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But you can do that in the column specifier. < 1253830207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm how? < 1253830220 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use "r @{} l" to get a right-aligned column and a left-aligned column with no space between them. < 1253830227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1253830263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that would be like: {r@{}lr@{}lr@{}l|r@{}l} instead of {ccc|c} then? < 1253830278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Not very pretty, admittedly. < 1253830287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you probably want to use @{X} instead, where X is something that will cause a tiny space, to leave a small breathing gap between the digits and the minus sign. < 1253830328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some thin space like \, ? < 1253830355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though in that case you probably need to re-enter math mode in there, so @{$\,$} -- not quite sure about that. < 1253830376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think \, works outside math mode though < 1253830385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not completely sure about that < 1253830400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, yes. Haven't really used them elsewhere, though. < 1253830406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@{$\,$} <-- that looks like quite a painful smiley! < 1253830431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess it actually should work without the $$s, because I remember using \quad outside math mode. < 1253830461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it < 1253830479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To leave a reasonable gap between two pictures, I think. < 1253830527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the two-column approach still doesn't center the digits, of course. For that you'd need to define some-sort of zero-width minus sign. Not impossible, of course. < 1253830537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway I'm suspecting that the sanest way to do this is pstricks, but that way I can't use pdftex then. and I like \usepackage{microtype}... < 1253830552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, can pdftex render to ps? < 1253830584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't need hyperref really in this case < 1253830594 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~fouvry/how-do-I.html "PSTricks with pdflatex". They sound quite kludgy. < 1253830638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh yeah you can embed pdf in pdf. Quite a nice feature that I actually used a few times < 1253830657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(convert svg to pdf, then embed that) < 1253830753 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253830860 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} should give you a math-mode "-" character that is actually zero-width, and displaced a bit (depending on the X there) to the left from the point you use it in. You should be able to use that sort of structure in front of numbers in a centered array column to get the "center numbers but ignore the minus sign" behaviour. < 1253830867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least so do I speculate; haven't tried. < 1253830974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm ok worth a try I guess. < 1253830995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it < 1253831000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo \quad if n=3 < 1253831001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or w/e < 1253831060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you fail there I'm afraid. \begin{cases} < 1253831062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253831075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was how this whole discussion started < 1253831084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, well, that doesn't work always. < 1253831094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex is all about opportunistic hacks. < 1253831104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and the cases env is a lot better for what you are suggesting < 1253831121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it works, and if you want everything else that comes with it < 1253831128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if it didn't exist it would be way better to use at least a matrix < 1253831132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't seriously be a purity zealot when using latex, so don't argue that it's wrong. < 1253831140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, two lines won't be aligned then < 1253831151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about two lines < 1253831167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was assuming it was in something like: < 1253831175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-x if x < 0 < 1253831179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x otherwise < 1253831183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a huge { on the side < 1253831187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made a donkey out of you and I. < 1253831216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, because I couldn't think of a reason for such a big space like that otherwise < 1253831235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the given phrase < 1253831250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t'was jus t an example < 1253831251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just < 1253831263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1253831477 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1253831668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} <-- just tested it. Latex errors on Xpt. What was that supposed to be instead? < 1253831674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you said it < 1253831682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so. suggested value for X? < 1253831721 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, it's a bit font-dependent. Possibly you could use a \hphantom with suitable contents instead of a fixed-width strut. < 1253831726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well it was placed on top of the text with X = 1 < 1253831738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, 1pt is not very much of spacing. < 1253831740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in on top of the \nicefrac directly following it < 1253831763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll need at least a "-"'s worth of space there, because the \makebox centers the text in it. < 1253831792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any magic way to find out how wide the - is there? < 1253831804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of phantom maybe? < 1253831821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naybe \hphantom{$-\,$} or something. < 1253831830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To provide "- and a bit" of space. < 1253831856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a bit hacky solution though. < 1253831866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I'm not familiar with how \rule works. What does the arguments in \rule{Xpt}{0pt} mean? < 1253831884 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First one is width, second one is height. < 1253831945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It creates a filled box with those arguments, but generally it's used to do horizontal or vertical lines (in which case one of the arguments is line thickness and the other the length) or alternatively struts (with zero width or zero height) to control spacing. < 1253831971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ok that made latex error for some reason, it accepted \rule though < 1253832023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm seems it didn't like math mode inside hphantom? < 1253832074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in theory it works, except that it ends up on top of the | line of the augmented matrix < 1253832124 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. Well, you can solve that by adjusting the column spacing manually if you want. < 1253832238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, if you seriously dislike the fixed-width \rule there, possibly \makebox[0pt][r]{$-\,$} could work instead. The additional 'r' argument should make the right edge of the "- " text be flush against the right edge of the zero-width box, i.e. the place you use it in. < 1253832294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I need about half a \, though < 1253832298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how < 1253832392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a smaller predefined space. You can use a suitable \rule again; but at least this time the rule won't have to depend on the length of the - sign, it's just the amount of space. < 1253832435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm: \negthinspace{} is negative space XD < 1253832454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it would depend on font size though in reality < 1253832455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and font < 1253832464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,. < 1253832472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253832499 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253832506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that there's a different concept of "font size" in- and out-math-mode, and you're sort of mixing the modes there; but in practice I guess it should work. < 1253832510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for some reason that placed it way off the other way < 1253832521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in two \quad at least < 1253832568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1253832574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your math fails :P < 1253832578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,. < 1253832585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.8 * 2 = 0.16 :D < 1253832619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint it should be 0.08) < 1253832623 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The decimal points, who cares about it. < 1253832628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253832643 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253832954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, issue is that this doesn't make the column wide enough in the matrix hm < 1253832965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you say you fixed that now again? < 1253833126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can add a spacer column there, maybe with the @{...} syntax. < 1253833224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what was you supposed to put inside the ${} ? < 1253833225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1253833227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@{} < 1253833269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried using a phantom but that resulted in very strange things < 1253833301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat-gnome is so lame < 1253833472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what to put there; maybe one of the \:-style spaces, since those are font-size-dependent. < 1253833502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, \: hm? < 1253833513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\quad\,\, worked < 1253833518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible hack yes < 1253833584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fully agreed < 1253833653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i wish you would stop agreeing to things when you know full well that we hate entirely different things about them and on the topic you know I think you're wrong about everything except this one boolean switch value, not the reasons behind it < 1253833669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. when I said kde sucks and you said "yeah, 4 at least") < 1253833704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat-gnome sucks, but xchat is far, far worse. < 1253833712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I disagree with < 1253833730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the two lines prior. < 1253833750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253833758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make any sense to agree with an opinion if it's just a single boolean value and happens to come from entirely different reasoning and position < 1253833793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you should provide the full thing so I can tell that it differs < 1253833811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provide too little information < 1253833838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a) I'm exceedingly lazy (b) I've mentioned xchat vs xchat-gnome before (c) it's fairly obvious I don't hate xchat-gnome because it isn't bloated like xchat :) < 1253833845 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-075-137.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1253833893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...although as a bandaid it could do with a "put the userlist to the right instead of concealed behind that button" option because I get the whole "it wastes space for quite a rare operation" thing but this is just a terrible solution < 1253834140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, xchat is bloated? < 1253834156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a menu just for all its preference dialogs, dude. < 1253834187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could use with all those in the main preference dialog yes < 1253834192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and checking user list is quite common < 1253834211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they were all in one dialog it might cause a black hole due to its ridiculous hugeness. < 1253834237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's quite common; I'm not quite sure it deserves such screen real estate, though. Ooh, maybe in my client, in the tree view, the channel could expand to a user list. < 1253834242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it already has a treeview. And it would still be less than the treeview in the kdevelop settings for example < 1253834244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could leave it up if you want, and it's still accessable with a click. < 1253834247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other apps like that < 1253834251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or visual studio < 1253834266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Is KDevelop's bigger than SeaMonkey's, I wonder? < 1253834269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I expect you to argue than an irc client needs less options < 1253834287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*accessible, not accessable < 1253834298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, don't have seamonkey and just remember kdevelop didn't use a tree view but an icon list and then tabbed pages under each icon < 1253834305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is kate that uses a tree view < 1253834308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND tabbed pages < 1253834309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253834314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not tabbed for all) < 1253834327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kate's isn't really *that* huge, though. < 1253834334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's well-organised. Still could do with a big trim. < 1253834343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kate... do with a trim? < 1253834345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sinner < 1253834373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very well balanced and feature rich. Yet way easier to find what you are looking for than in emacs < 1253834385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but... it still has an awful, awful lot of preferences. < 1253834399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I changed over 2/3 of them I think < 1253834406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... I think it is good < 1253834413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you're crazy and anyone designing software around you is crazy. < 1253834432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still something like visual studio has WAY more options < 1253834447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and visual studio handles way fewer languages too < 1253834457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but Kate makes claim to be an editor, not an integrated development whoopisystem. < 1253834478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I would place kate somewhere between "IDE" and "bare editor" < 1253834484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more towards editor than IDE though < 1253834523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ought to write a text editor as actual separate Unix commands, so the claim that it's an IDE is finally true. < 1253834526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this places emacs near IDEs (except less integrated for many languages) < 1253834535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sed doesn't count, it combines multiple commands into one. :P) < 1253834604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1253834620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you could write it based on a simple dd + sh base < 1253834635 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heya. Anyone here have any experience writing interpetters ? < 1253834642 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* interpreters < 1253834645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shell scripts like "replace" and "search" and "view" and what not < 1253834645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect everyone. < 1253834655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from the bots. < 1253834659 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1253834662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: View? You mean cat? < 1253834688 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1253834695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, view: #!/bin/sh\n$PAGER $@ < 1253834698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1253834699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1253834699 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you lend us a hand, I'm struggling to write a brainfuck interpreter in python, I can't get it to loop correctly on [ or ] < 1253834712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway my plan was to base it ALL on just dd and sh < 1253834715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Pagers don't have a command-line based interface. < 1253834730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so those are the only external dependencies < 1253834732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is that meant to be interesting? dd/sh is an established "language". < 1253834748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: Either you have to find the matching [ or ] every time you execute in the code, or you need to match them beforehand. < 1253834757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but it makes it more portable or something. (yeah it doesn't really hold up) < 1253834772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: If you're looping through the program file character by character, firstly, stop and load it all into memory first. < 1253834801 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have it loaded into a list, and each time I encounter a [ I push the current position in the program onto a stack < 1253834811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: Right. And? < 1253834833 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then when I find the matching ] I don't have to walk backwards in the code I just jump there < 1253834840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so what's the issue? < 1253834868 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/YQPtSBmh < 1253834877 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, It's not working as desired :-/ < 1253834912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Epiphany just crashed upon opening that straining codepad page. < 1253834916 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to run >+++++[>+>+<<-] < 1253834917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try clicking it again... < 1253834925 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry :-( < 1253834929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's okay. :P < 1253834937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: (btw, it's interpreter with one t) < 1253834949 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, lol < 1253834952 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always mis-type it < 1253834957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : self.stack.append((self.instruction_pointer,self.pointer,)) # why save self.pointer here too? < 1253834971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: anyway, your [ has a bug < 1253834975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the value is 0 at the start of the loop? < 1253834978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it executes it anyway < 1253835000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: you have to check at both ends, OR, you can make the ] jump unconditionally to the [, and let the [ do all the checking (but this is slightly slower) < 1253835119 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I only need to check on the [ and ]? < 1253835122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how to tell pdftex to embed *all* fonts? < 1253835138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well only the used parts obviously < 1253835140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: What conditions would require checking for the others? < 1253835143 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie. line 53 to 57 is unnecessary? < 1253835199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, yes < 1253835202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are they supposed to do? < 1253835291 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're supposed to be doing the checking in the loop < 1253835326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tinned_Tuna: the loop doesn't abort if it becomes 0 inside the loop < 1253835333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should look at the semantics for the commands again < 1253835344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview < 1253835429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't really know; there's the pdftexDownloadBase14 setting you can change, but that's set to "true" in the default system config here at least. < 1253835446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253835469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that from some \latexcommand or command line option or? < 1253835510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's in the updmap.cfg tex config file; Debian has an "update-updmap" tool to build that, your distribution might do things differently. < 1253835524 0 :Tinned_Tuna!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must've misread that then, thanks :-) < 1253835553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1253835562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm ok. and it is set to true, yet helvetica isn't embedded < 1253835816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on some quick googling, it looks like it can't embed Helvetica unless you actually, you know, have it; I mean the actual font named "Helvetica", which is commercial and all. < 1253835824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.de/group/comp.text.tex/browse_thread/thread/690b4c0f9cbf2f49/3052d903aaaeadcd has some workarounds. < 1253835832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason you need it embedded, though? < 1253835953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The workarounds seem to mostly involve running things through Ghostscript's pdfwriter device with font-embedding turned on, using "ps2pdf13 -dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress in.pdf out.pdf"; that sounds like it could mess something else up easily. < 1253835981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must sleep now. < 1253836181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm