< 1253404969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1253405449 0 :Patashu!n=Patashu@c122-106-162-185.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1253406608 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253407363 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1253407381 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253407422 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-97.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253408090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:32:22 for one thing, it wouldn't have any available screen resolutions that Vista would be able to comprehend < 1253408090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:32:47 if you wanted to go as high as 16 colours, the screen res was something awful like 160x120 < 1253408095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could do that I'm sure < 1253408106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98-type things could do 1-bit < 1253408149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm skipping logreading the middle day...) < 1253408151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:41:56 any guess when SSD may be more common than harddrives? < 1253408151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:42:17 or at least be equal or better in price, capacity and speed. < 1253408160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 5 years for the consumer market < 1253408173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but HDs will still be big for ages, I imagine; even in the consumer market < 1253408177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for servers, a million years < 1253408181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDs are very orthodox < 1253408315 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1253408441 0 :nescience!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253408709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, are you there? < 1253408787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, your vestiges of sanity are safe for now < 1253408826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:52:42 think it was 450 GB disk < 1253408826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :450 GiB = 483 GB < 1253408832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so prolly 500GB disks < 1253408850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:53:21 often small cases, that look like it could be a thin client (they aren't quite that though) < 1253408850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mini-atx is quite popular these days < 1253408884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:45:22 AnMaster: they made a noise like someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river and it was. < 1253408885 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: he took a great deal that's got to be more and more dwarfs were coming to work in a dark alley, a voice which only he heard said: so... this classroom is in some way driven by the brain, eh? < 1253408888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1253408889 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1253408909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and it was" at the end made my brain put that quote to the tune of And She Was < 1253408923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except very skewed < 1253408999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what is the noise of someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river? < 1253409088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:30:14 btw if you don't know what killer sudoku is, it's like sudoku except you get no initial cell values - instead you get an additional division into "cages", and are given the sum of the values in each cage < 1253409090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee < 1253409109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't consider sudoku nor that worthy of the title game < 1253409112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for different reasons < 1253409117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudoku's too easy, that's too evil < 1253409205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06:30 American English shouldn't be classified as English < 1253409205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06:31 It's too crap < 1253409205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to start using American English spelling because it's less crufty < 1253409247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:07:58 AnMaster: We just love zees more than brits because "zed" sounds so stupid. < 1253409247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE ZED; we used to sing the abc song in school like that and it totally broke the flow < 1253409277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zed" < 1253409279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1253409280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT IS AWFUL < 1253409281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT SHOULD BE < 1253409284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zeeeeeeeeeee" < 1253409285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rant oevr < 1253409286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over < 1253409319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Tragically born on the wrong side of the pond. < 1253409335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: on the other hand, self-loathing possibly beats rampant consumerism < 1253409356 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dood rampant consumerism RULES. < 1253409380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dood rampant consumerism rules: 1. Buy things. 2. A lot. < 1253409387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. Make them fit for a dood. < 1253409441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: tatham's killer sudoku got a lot easier after i had that realization before the quote, now i've solved everyone i tried (except possibly one i interrupted), while before i'd only managed a single one afair < 1253409558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'd managed a few in the weekend newspaper before, obviously they were much easier < 1253409595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:08:51 AnMaster: You see that airplane flying over your head? My joke is on that airplane. < 1253409595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:09:29 Gregor, what do you mean with airplane? < 1253409595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:09:44 AnMaster: MY META-JOKE IS ALSO ON THAT FUCKING AIRPLANE < 1253409602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I hitch a ride? < 1253409612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have this bomb, you see... < 1253409649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:11:31 If calculus is over my head, then I do not understand calculus. <-- I pitty you < 1253409649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1253409655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there goes 'nother one < 1253409867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:35:45 ais523, he must be weak if he can't pull out an usb stick! < 1253409868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true for once < 1253409875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magnetic thing is just so it doesn't poke you, i guess < 1253409881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I'm just weak. it's out now < 1253409885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1253409893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out < 1253409893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253409894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usb that is < 1253409907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin. < 1253409921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Konec. < 1253411267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A village in south-estern Slovenia. < 1253411275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*eastern < 1253411611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[In terms of her biographical details, Marie Bila is a 77 year-old grandmother, who lives in small village in the Czech Republic with a cat called Jasmina, 15 chickens and goat Liza. < 1253411611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This year however, she's become Granny Coder, and is proving you're never too old to become a game developer. < 1253411611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On her blog, and helped by her three grandsons, she's been documenting the process of making her first game - an iPhone physics puzzle game called Gelex.]] < 1253411647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wait 'til it gets rejected! < 1253411728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably bullshit: < 1253411730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Someone who only has a basic knowledge of C/C++ in "IT Projects" makes a game concept on paper on August 28th. 22 days later they have a fully working game on a foreign platform in a foreign graphics API in a language that isn't C/C++ with self-made professional quality art, and is now posting about topics like using --ffast-math to compile the physics library, using degenerate triangle strips, and using HSV as an intermediate format for better color shift < 1253411795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: also "End" in Czech < 1253411811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a place in the UK called Nowhere IIRC < 1253411851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a place in Norway called Hell (Less than an hour's drive from here) < 1253411956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is also a place close to my birth town called the norwegian translation of that, but that's a very local name so not famous) < 1253412018 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1253414673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1253416795 0 :amca!n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1253417093 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253417572 0 :ehird!i=5b6949aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-urvzvdducuugffho JOIN :#esoteric < 1253417590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should I name this Ubuntu machine, I've been stuck at this prompt for 70 years :| < 1253417745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something african perhaps < 1253417761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's african for butt. < 1253417767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1253417767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253417824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph this swahili dictionary has no match < 1253417863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not this zulu one either... < 1253417906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "anus" is probably more likely. < 1253417925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1253417943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu is a Bantu word, it seems. < 1253417992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah punda means ass as in donkey < 1253418029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "panda". < 1253418036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives up < 1253418086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try "mugabe", that's _almost_ the same isn't it? < 1253418164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253418231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you then still have a perfect explanation if someone asks you why you named it that < 1253418254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I hate white people." < 1253418262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that too. < 1253418773 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253418820 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253418855 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-115-205.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253419262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eventually picked the imaginative name of "ehird-desktop" < 1253419365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure that means something rude in betelgeusean < 1253420531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253424923 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253426574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253426588 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253426745 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253427265 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253428332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253428667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1253428767 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253431648 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Farewell" < 1253431882 0 :ehird!i=5b6949aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-opihepyoghlxnwsn JOIN :#esoteric < 1253431891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ping < 1253432985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253433599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1253433600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1253433839 0 :ehird!i=5b6949aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-akugqccezzogugrz JOIN :#esoteric < 1253435867 0 :Sgeo__!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1253435973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253436149 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253436889 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253437110 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253437120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i test lika this: one two tree < 1253437122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1253437157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253438249 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253438255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1253438257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1253438262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tset < 1253438283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat-gnome sucks but xchat is worse :( < 1253438435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, i love you ubuntu < 1253438447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define a compose key entirely with the mouse < 1253438470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system -> preferences -> keyboard -> layouts -> layout options -> compose key position < 1253438509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue: the compose key, by default, is missing a bunch < 1253438516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compose -> isn't defined < 1253438523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compose .. produces ˙, not (...) < 1253438835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::\ < 1253438861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat-gnome would be fine if it had more line spacing between ... lines < 1253438878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1253438879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gnop" < 1253438905 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-20-254.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253438918 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253438932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: can you say "ehird: foo" in a second? kthx < 1253438937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: foo < 1253438941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, 3 seconds late < 1253438947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was good < 1253438978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, xchat-gnome wishlist: more line spacing, support that fancy notification menu thing that Ubuntu has. < 1253439488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(33 × 72) ÷ 29 < 1253439495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the Compose key makes that easy. < 1253439509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Compose x x and Compose :-) < 1253439515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*: - < 1253439617 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253440384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gnop" < 1253441170 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253441172 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-125.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253441264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1253441370 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1253441477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can I enslave you? ping me yo < 1253441511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ping < 1253441519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1253441572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat is kind of shit :x < 1253441649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice if there was a gtk irc client that didn't suck. < 1253441786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, epiphany should let you middle-click a tab to close it. < 1253441789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather gnome should. < 1253441792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly a binding somewhere. < 1253441831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it would be nice if you could resize a smart bookmark. and give it a keyboard shortcut. < 1253442503 0 :Elench!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1253443306 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1253443727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gnop" < 1253443748 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253443780 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253443798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253443839 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253443853 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253445595 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253445595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253445605 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253446228 0 :Elench!n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253446342 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-199.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253446343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, all GTK IRC clients suffer from an extreme case of suck. < 1253446361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm really dreading writing my own :-P < 1253446546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck? < 1253446581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1253446583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A USB stuck. < 1253446612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, can you ping me again? I don't think I got an OSD notification for that. < 1253446625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok. < 1253446631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that worked. < 1253446631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(done) < 1253446641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe only in <>? < 1253446647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shall we try that? < 1253446650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1253446651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck? < 1253446664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it work? < 1253446666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that worked. Guess I was just anti-hallucinating. < 1253446679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Ubuntu is good. Not awesomely great, but good. < 1253446694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's only a few niggles away from awesomely great. < 1253446750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, debootstrap is good. However the reason I needed it is because ubuntu's multilib packages are missing so much. < 1253446764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how that's related to what I said :P < 1253446768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for when you want to cross compile to 32-bit < 1253446776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1253446778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... -m32? < 1253446784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libs, I guess. < 1253446789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah sure, but doesn't help when the libs are missing < 1253446794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1253446807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when they are there but the stuff needed to link to them aren't < 1253446826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the *.la files < 1253446930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh yeah, I meant to tell you. If you want to use less watts on your laptop, tell HAL to stop polling the optical drive. < 1253446945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You are free to stare at the implications of that sentence for a few minutes in awe.) < 1253446994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I know about that. Since ages. < 1253447003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty amazingly terrible. < 1253447032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, thing is, my laptop is probably new enough to support the "cd drive notifies about events instead of having to be polled" < 1253447043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly sure every optical drive ever has done that. < 1253447049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, < 1253447050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nop. < 1253447053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1253447057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a fairly new feature < 1253447064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In HAL maybe. Not in drives. < 1253447069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes in drives < 1253447096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X, at least, reacts as soon as I put a disk in the drive with no delay whatsoever, so either Macs once again save the day with good engineering or "polling" means "every ms". < 1253447099 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253447100 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1253447112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well right, OS X maybe, but what about normal PCs? < 1253447143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macs (almost) always had good hardware < 1253447150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's the hardware(, stupid,) then it is almost certainly common as Macs use a third-party drive. < 1253447164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's the software(, stupid,) then OS X has some magical polling technique that uses zero watts.. < 1253447193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\.{2}/./ < 1253447265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the latest Ubuntu must have regressed ATI drivers or something. < 1253447273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Newer SATA-based CDROM drives have the capability to notify the machine when a CD gets inserted, making polling unnecessary. Both the kernel and hal are currently undergoing development to detect and support this capability, so that polling is not needed at any time for these devices." < 1253447279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from http://www.lesswatts.org/tips/disks.php < 1253447283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the only fglrx that supports this new X11 version dropped support for the X1600 and other "old" cards. < 1253447298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess I was using fglrx on older versions and now I'm seeing the shittiness of the open source drivers. < 1253447299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc the last versions does support it now < 1253447337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how old is X1600? < 1253447368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it came with this 2006 Mac, and Macs use recent hardware. < 1253447379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe 2005 release, earliest. < 1253447398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is old enough for ATI or nvidia to drop support yeah < 1253447405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a high-end card, and it's a notebook card (iMacs are notebooks with big screens, right down to using mobile processors). < 1253447414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1253447433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so the only macs with desktop components are the mac pros? < 1253447440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's very XD; it lets Apple reuse the internals of their notebook models and it also uses less power. It's not like it's slower or anything. < 1253447452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Those don't use desktop components, they use server/high-end workstation components (like Xeon). < 1253447462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no macs use desktop components? < 1253447483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. < 1253447495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusual < 1253447508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep in mind that desktop components run hot enough that the iMac would have to be thicker to account for the beefier heatsink. Either that or louder because of a fastest fan. < 1253447513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't everyone use laptop components in desktops? are they more expensive? < 1253447516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'd also use lots more power. < 1253447528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really fit for a tower case, I guess. < 1253447543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine they may be cheaper than similarly-performing desktop components. < 1253447554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd say inertia, and a misguided devotion to the clock cycles. < 1253447566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus tower cases (which suck anyway). < 1253447576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with tower cases? < 1253447586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the clock cycles/clock cycles/ < 1253447613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unneeded for anything but workstations. They waste space and, fundamentally, they're a Bad object: you never *use* the tower. It's sitting there because it has to. < 1253447625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody wants a big box in their house that doesn't, in itself, *do* anything for them. < 1253447649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure does, it contains the CPU. GPU, PSU, and so on < 1253447658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. You don't sit in front of the tower and use it. < 1253447679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use your display, audio devices, keyboard, pointing devices... < 1253447691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, according to that logic, something like a cable "modem" would be equally hated. < 1253447692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The box, in itself, does not a single thing but sit there and hum. < 1253447698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Did I say hated? < 1253447707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not as such, maybe just "disliked" < 1253447713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If someone could make their cable model disappear and just have a wire going from the wall, yes, of course they'd do it. < 1253447754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway, a tower case is a lot easier to open and clean than a cramped computer. And easier to replace components in < 1253447776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The box itself is useless: it gives multiple ethernet ports, which could be integrated into the wall socket. Apart from that, it has a reset button (which could go into the same wall socket) and annoying, useless LEDs. < 1253447785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, cable modems suck. < 1253447803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it isn't trivial to do much maintenance on imacs apart from installing RAM and some other basic stuff (replace harddrive maybe?) < 1253447804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, the expandability is their only advantage. < 1253447819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, replacing the harddrive is non-trivial and almost certainly warranty-voiding. < 1253447827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how easy is it to clean the dust from the heatsink inside your imac? < 1253447837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It doesn't collect any because the space is so compact and sealed off. < 1253447848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sealed off, so no fan either? < 1253447851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I say "any"; I mean any meaningful amount. < 1253447865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The exhaust slot is too small to fit even a pencil head through. < 1253447874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any filters in the intake? < 1253447885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I can't even look at it. < 1253447888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's tiny. < 1253447896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a cheese grater thing on the bottom. < 1253447901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's the thing, it's on the bottom. < 1253447919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dust doesn't spontaneously slide under an iMac and then jump up really high, I find. < 1253447922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, but that wouldn't stop the dust from entering would it? Larger particles yes, but not dust as such < 1253447945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To travel as far as the CPU in such a compact space that's so hard to enter would be a feat. < 1253447959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the iMac is pretty sealed; there aren't even any screws on the back. < 1253447967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some dust will reach it. though probably much less than on a usual tower design < 1253447977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can open up the RAM slot and I guess the dissecting sort of crowd opens it from that cramped space. < 1253447979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ouch, plastic snapping thingies? < 1253447984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the RAM slot is screws. < 1253447990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it just opens to two RAM slots and a wall. < 1253447995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's on the bottom. < 1253447996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I meant the rest of it < 1253448002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1253448003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sealed. < 1253448009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot possibly open it without going through the bottom. < 1253448018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, how do authorised service people get in then < 1253448031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I *guess* you could pry the back plastic across from the rest of the form, but it's very deeply embedded. < 1253448043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably via the RAM slots. < 1253448046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253448056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or taking off the bottom cheese-grater. < 1253448072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, which imac model is this? hm < 1253448077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which houses the RAM slots and the speaker holes, and is the intake (I guess). < 1253448089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Late 2006; the later ones are aluminium and thinner. I don't know if they remove the cheese grater. < 1253448109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://a.images.blip.tv/Bleedingedge-BleedingEdgeTV178IMacRAMUpgradeOnTheCheap520.jpg < 1253448112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not the ones that are like a TFT on an arm mounted on a half ball? < 1253448113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly different. < 1253448130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the cheese greater is in two parts and doesn't cover the whole bottom, and the RAM slots are side-by-side (presumably for thinness). < 1253448135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, that's the 2002 model. < 1253448138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253448149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2002 to 2004 iMac G5) < 1253448155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I love that design, though. < 1253448158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wasn't 2002 the age of the bright colours? < 1253448165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's 1998-2002. < 1253448165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that more like 2000-2001? < 1253448168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253448181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was quite a departure from existing computer designs, which were, well... 90s. < 1253448184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I love that design, though. <-- ball one? < 1253448190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1253448197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, beige goes with everything! < 1253448207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beige goes with beige. :P < 1253448241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iMac G4 (ball/pivot design) is pretty much my favourite desktop computer design ever. < 1253448253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my tower is more like: "black metal and silver coloured plastic goes with everything" < 1253448280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it has a computer in it even less than the later designs, the LCD was fully tiltable and a separate unit so you could focus on it (as opposed to the additional borders in later designs). < 1253448280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and blue leds around power button to indicate it is on < 1253448287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a circle around the power button yeah < 1253448309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, the ball was really small. Additionally, the optical drive was horizontal, which means that it'll spin the discs with less fighting of physics than the later models. < 1253448337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertical cd drives always make me nervous < 1253448359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for vertical harddrives < 1253448380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Issues with the original iMac G4: small screens (15"-17" iirc), slow hardware by today's standards (G4). < 1253448384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the modern imacs looks like they aren't even completely vertical, but slightly tilted < 1253448386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, iMac G4. < 1253448390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the original iMac. < 1253448392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, they are. < 1253448411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that makes me even more nervous < 1253448415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the components are really reliable, so it's fine. < 1253448435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Notebook components, remember. < 1253448440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're designed to be tilted. < 1253448449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see e.g. all those tilted notebook stands) < 1253448457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what sort of connectors does that imac have? Any external video connectors for use with projectors and such? < 1253448467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, the better notebooks withstand a fall of a few feet while accessing the disk. < 1253448501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that is only because they have an accelerometer and pull the head off the harddisk in a split second < 1253448511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's changed in the later models, I think, but this one has two audio ports, three USB ports, two FireWire ports, an Ethernet port and an Apple-display-connector-of-the-week port. < 1253448527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I was just emphasising that notebook components are built to withstand a lot. < 1253448532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple-display-connector-of-the-week <-- how fitting. Tell me, what one was it then? < 1253448550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mini-DVI. < 1253448553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253448554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Looked it up.) < 1253448576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My personal opinion is that the rest of the industry should adopt Mini DisplayPort, but everyone's going for the non-mini version. < 1253448583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is kinda silly, who doesn't like mini? < 1253448589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but on the other hand not exactly a big deal. < 1253448596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, everyone without tiny hands? ;P < 1253448607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except for the whole "more money? To you, Apple? To connect my display? Sure!" thing.) < 1253448622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's, like, the size of a USB port. A little smaller. < 1253448635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My real enemy, though, is Ethernet. < 1253448669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, most projectors tend to have VGA as far as I have seen < 1253448680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ethernet ports are so annoying to attach (push...push...click!), the little tab thing at the top you have to push down is annoying, and the ports are so tall that they actually flush with thin notebook's edges (and are omitted from some to avoid making them deeper). < 1253448692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess DP includes analogue signal too < 1253448702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, no. < 1253448707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVI, DisplayPort, ... are all digital. < 1253448714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: modern projectors have dvi btw. < 1253448724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, DVI has both signals < 1253448729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least some DVI < 1253448731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doe? < 1253448732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1253448746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1253448756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DVI-I" stands for "DVI-Integrated" and supports both digital and analog transfers, so it works with both digital and analog Visual Display Units. "DVI-D" stands for "DVI-Digital" and supports digital transfers only. < 1253448759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from wikipedia on DVI < 1253448766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're right. But no, there are digital DVI projectors, I'm pretty sure. < 1253448800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also how do you mean ethernet flush with the edges? < 1253448805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like: < 1253448815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is no taller than a vertical USB port < 1253448834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my thinkpad has it's three usb ports oriented vertically < 1253448844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :------------------------ < 1253448844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [ ] < 1253448844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ] [ ] | ] < 1253448844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [ ] < 1253448844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :------------------------ < 1253448849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, macs are thinner < 1253448869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2988420535_5acf01b064.jpg < 1253448869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what are the first two ones? < 1253448872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MacBook Pro) < 1253448874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, USB or something. < 1253448884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the second port in that image is Ethernet. < 1253448889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1253448898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, macs are too thin for their own good :P < 1253448906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no firewire!? < 1253448909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a mac?! < 1253448918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireWire isn't in the 13" model, iirc. < 1253448923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1253448925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wait. < 1253448933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the third one? < 1253448937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was restored when it became the 13" MacBook Pro as opposed to just the 13" aluminium MacBook. < 1253448950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only things that use FireWire are cameras, anyway. < 1253448956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a rather unadopted sort of port. < 1253448958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, harddrives < 1253448966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly USB. < 1253448982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :high end harddrives and (high end only?) video cameras < 1253448982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that or made by Apple or Mac-oriented companies. :P < 1253448993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the lower-end cameras use USB, I'm pretty sure. < 1253449008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well only video cameras < 1253449016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ll/ll,/ < 1253449021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, the MacBook Pro is rather less impressively thin than http://k8rhymeswith.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/macbook-air.jpg. < 1253449028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly that last image. < 1253449041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it cheats a bit by curving outwards, but still. < 1253449042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, where is the power connector though < 1253449049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On what? < 1253449054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macbook air < 1253449064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you need at least that, no way to get away from it < 1253449083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No "getting away" in the MacBook Air, it has ports: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Apple-MacBook-Air-Ports.jpg < 1253449092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You slide that out and it slides into the case, fitting with it.) < 1253449096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the power port is on the back. < 1253449109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Those three ports are audio, USB and something-display, btw.) < 1253449116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, only audio out? < 1253449119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mic port? < 1253449125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure. Audio ports are both, though, aren't they? < 1253449130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's either it's audio out only, though. < 1253449134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/macbook-air-rev2-sm2-05.jpg < 1253449137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power connector is on the case. < 1253449145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, audio ports being both isn't standard at least < 1253449148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some mac only one < 1253449161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the MacBook Air has a built-in microphone. < 1253449162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it goes downwards? < 1253449166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly meant to be your only computer. < 1253449168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sure, I think. < 1253449184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't work if you can't place it so it sticks out past the table < 1253449189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in the middle of a table < 1253449204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That photo may be misleading. < 1253449205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally my desk goes all the way to the wall beind it < 1253449235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/01/01_macbook_air.jpg < 1253449243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly that bending makes me cringe, but it's probably fine. < 1253449254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, it is magnetic. :P < 1253449257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that one isn't even fully pushed in! < 1253449271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True dat. < 1253449295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, indeed, the Air has flaws. Among those is just 2GB of RAM... < 1253449303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and ok it is on the side, even worse since I have most space on the other side of the desk. < 1253449348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just bend the cord :P < 1253449350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that would have sounded like a ridiculous statement just two or three years ago < 1253449356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, about the RAM < 1253449387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm, 1GB of RAM was the baseline and 2GB a good upgrade in 2006. < 1253449392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not sure about that. < 1253449403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, it's the 64-bit. < 1253449416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why are mac laptops so thin. Seriously, making it a bit thicker doesn't actually make it worse to use IME. And I used both thin macbooks and thick thinkpads < 1253449421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bam! You're using like 1.5x more RAM. < 1253449426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because why not? < 1253449431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more aesthetically pleasing. < 1253449450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's easier to fit in bags, etc. < 1253449455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ThinkPads are not really thick. < 1253449467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially the T-series, which is only slightly thicker than current MacBook Pros. < 1253449479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, are you suggesting about half the data in most programs are pointers? < 1253449480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the X-series too, I guess. < 1253449490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: With today's crufty libraryspace, probably. < 1253449507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about the R series? It manages to fit the ethernet so it looks natural < 1253449519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the macbook I was comparing to was a "white plastic" one < 1253449522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure when that was < 1253449535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the R stands for budget (the R is silent and also invisible) so it's a bit thicker. Still, quite thin. < 1253449548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel cpu though < 1253449549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depends. What was the keyboard like? < 1253449564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing? < 1253449568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the R is silent and also invisible <-- silent yes, invisible? huh? < 1253449570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Intel. < 1253449573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MacBook. < 1253449584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually heavier and a bit thicker than the MacBook Pros to be cheaper. < 1253449585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing? <-- space between < 1253449586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a joke. < 1253449593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T is for thin. < 1253449597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is for budget... which has no R. < 1253449603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the R is silent and also invisible. < 1253449608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1253449623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, X for ...? < 1253449634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xtremely portable! < 1253449642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xtreme battery life too < 1253449652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's standard for an ultraportable. < 1253449672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The X-series isn't so portable nowadays, though, being about as thick as a 14" 4:3. < 1253449689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although the screen's still small.) < 1253449727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that one of the most important things for a ThinkPad to be good is for it to have that ridiculously colourful IBM logo on it. < 1253449733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least my subconscious seems to think so. < 1253449743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an eyesore, which is good! < 1253449745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253449745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also the macbook I'm comparing too is about as thick when lid is closed as the base when lid is open on my thinkpad < 1253449759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cmparing to < 1253449761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*comparing < 1253449768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The recent MacBook Pros are thinner. < 1253449769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253449776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mhm < 1253449777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also lighter. < 1253449787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The same size (13") model, that is.) < 1253449801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and ethernet port fits quite well on my thinkpad :P < 1253449807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higher specs -> thinner and lighter! < 1253449819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, somehow that doesn't make sense :P < 1253449820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, an i7 MacBook would actually add thickness to things around it. < 1253449828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's negatively thin! < 1253449834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why would R stand for budget btw? Are they cheap? < 1253449850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the non-R ones being much cheaper < 1253449855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1253449858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more expensive* < 1253449862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're slightly cheaper (no ThinkPad is cheap) and therefore thicker and heavier. < 1253449874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, less battery life. < 1253449877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253449889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinkpads are cheap compared to macs at least < 1253449900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not massively. < 1253449926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're quite a bit more expensive than even high-end Dells and the like. < 1253449955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well possibly, but at least they have usable monitors < 1253449977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wouldn't glossy TFTs be more expensive? < 1253449978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-Apple glossy is kind of irrelevant unless you're outside. < 1253449986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, the glossiness is natural, I think. < 1253449992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The anti-matte is an extra process, I'm pretty sure. < 1253450005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so matte isn't natural? < 1253450006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Apple's glossy screens are a lot more glossy than normal ones) < 1253450009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think so. < 1253450014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, though. < 1253450043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, huh, so why wasn't glossy introduced first? < 1253450049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple refers to the matte screen option as anti-golssy, so I guess that's an additional "process". < 1253450054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Was it? < 1253450066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know. < 1253450071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean, matte TFTs are older than glossy ones < 1253450074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1253450092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glossy ones were introduced a few years ago yes, while matte ones been around quite a while longer < 1253450104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define a few. I think you're wrong. < 1253450107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and I'm absolutely positive < 1253450112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 2003? 2004? < 1253450120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1253450132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I know old laptops were always matte < 1253450140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and same for old desktop displays < 1253450142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't prove anything. < 1253450154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need to go back further to see. < 1253450173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why then would glossy ones have been unpopular for so long? < 1253450186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I remember some laptop in 1995 or so... matte... < 1253450190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they look like shit unless you make them super-extra-glossy so that they SHIIIIIIIIIIIIINE? < 1253450200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253450208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because of inertia; perhaps matte was established earlier on when the engineers tested not covering it and found "wow this is crap". < 1253450212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be totally wrong though. < 1253450277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I don't know for sure either. But as far as I know that thing you quoted apple on naming it sounds like marketing speech < 1253450300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's anti-marketing speak; its juxtaposition with the default glossy makes glossy sound like "glare". < 1253450314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm not basing it solely on that. But really I don't care. < 1253450509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl food < 1253451013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1253451137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to try and make that Linux magic (capability-based?) sandboxer now. < 1253451165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? < 1253451166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not too clued up on how unix users work though. Can you use any UID spontaneously, and an /etc/passwd entry is just for things like a username and shit? < 1253451176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you referring to the thing EgoBot uses? < 1253451194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, something I want to make. You can run untrusted programs without a care because it can only write files to your home directory, etc. if you let it to. < 1253451209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The challenge is making this in a way that doesn't involve a dozen "let program access file X?" prompts every second. < 1253451212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I believe /etc/passwd (or other schemes, like NIS and what not) are just for username, password, home directory, shell and such < 1253451222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are root you could change to any uid < 1253451226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. So the kernel just associates an arbitrary integer with processes? < 1253451227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1253451236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if many programs check /etc/passwd instead of using $HOME. < 1253451242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm not completely sure, but I think so < 1253451261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about $HOME, it would be set from /etc/passwd or whatever < 1253451271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freebsd doesn't use /etc/passwd directly for example < 1253451283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses some db file, but when it is updated /etc/passwd is too < 1253451291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for compatibility reasons I think < 1253451291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but you can do HOME=foo prog < 1253451302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can do that yes < 1253451318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess user-managing things do /etc/passwd instead, but they'd have to be special-cased to apply to the "actual" user in this system anyway < 1253451358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this should mainly consist of creating a user and then doing an LD_PRELOAD. < 1253451364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as for capabilities... no such support in linux in the meaning of capabilities that you mean < 1253451373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And then, later, adding this to the kernel's process spawner.) < 1253451383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No shit. Thus why I'm coding it. < 1253451400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and about LD_PRELOAD, there are ways to work around that unless you make sure it fails without LD_PRELOAD < 1253451413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, static binaries, direct system calls < 1253451433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would end up doing the same thing as that thing egobot uses if you want to make it fool proof < 1253451448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I am doing is nothing like what EgoBot is doing. < 1253451464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253451470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, either I'll simply not support using any static binaries or I'll just replace libc for non-root programs with my LD_PRELOAD shim. < 1253451476 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253451482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which calls libc itself, of course) < 1253451489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that would be Hidden Away) < 1253451502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it. < 1253451522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One challenge I'll face is having almost zero overhead... I refuse to make programs slow. < 1253451586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I can do it, though. < 1253451603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...which provides more motivation to make a Linux distro and package manager :P < 1253451626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it. <-- ptrace I guess? < 1253451631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1253451637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how then < 1253451665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Down with the bourgeoise distribution control system! Down with the global package conspiracy! Viva la user! Viva la unsecure code! Viva la capabilities! Viva la sandboxing! Viva la purely-functional package manager! < 1253451672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dunno. < 1253451674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check. < 1253451724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the kernel actually contains non-free code! < 1253451741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends. < 1253451747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No depends about it: http://jebba.blagblagblag.org/?p=244 < 1253451777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes depends on if you include the firmware or not < 1253451790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code is still there whether you compile with it or not. < 1253451795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But look at the list. < 1253451799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's more than just that. < 1253451882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as it happens I use none of those on my desktop (on the other hand, it has nvidia driver so meh), for my laptop I need the tg3 and iwlagn drivers, iwlagn at least loads some firmware from /lib/fimware < 1253452016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long int syscall(long int number, ...) { < 1253452016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : // Don't call syscall < 1253452016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : watch_log("syscall\n"); < 1253452016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return 0; < 1253452016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253452019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's unhelpful < 1253452046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can easily do the syscall manually in any case. < 1253452060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can't. Anagolf allows C and asm. < 1253452064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It DOES block syscalls. < 1253452070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't know how yet. < 1253452087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes. Anyway in C you can do inline asm, and in asm, well... < 1253452100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, using ptrace *would* work I think < 1253452181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the issue is that lots of hardware these days cut down on costs by having the driver load the firmware on each boot < 1253452187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reduces needed flash on chipset < 1253452197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus cheaper < 1253452244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EEPROM is more expensive than DRAM. And also it is easier to fix a messup, just reboot, no need to worry about flashing going wrong < 1253452303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just end up with firmware in rom were you can't avoid it: BIOS, disk controller and such. < 1253452311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or eeprom) < 1253452347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptrace is slow, no? < 1253452355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every process, remember < 1253452358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no idea. < 1253452380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also you can't ptrace at least a few things: init and the ptrace daemon itself < 1253452396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could write your own init < 1253452401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which did the ptrace stuff too < 1253452405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1253452405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really really wanted to < 1253452413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems like NIH < 1253452873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, how does ptrace actually work? < 1253452903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it what anagolf uses? < 1253452917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and: man ptrace < 1253452935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used it directly, but iirc, stuff like strace, gdb and what not uses it too < 1253452965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea how anagolf does it. < 1253452973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No manual entry for ptrace < 1253452975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't anagolf open source? < 1253452976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I need build-essentials :P < 1253452977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1253452983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how it does it. < 1253452984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, install the relevant package, not sure what package that is < 1253452992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :build-essential < 1253453021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you maybe want to use the ptrace flag PTRACE_SYSEMU < 1253453035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No manual entry. < 1253453039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manpages-dev < 1253453049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. < 1253453053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, man page mentions that UML uses PTRACE_SYSEMU < 1253453068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, the thing is, "trace". < 1253453071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather override than trace. < 1253453076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can do that < 1253453079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, long-term solution is to patch the actual syscalls. < 1253453081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see what I mentioned < 1253453086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like with libc for static binaries. < 1253453094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also removes overhead. < 1253453101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Just like with libc for static binaries. <-- ? < 1253453118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make static binaries bow to my LD_PRELOAD prowess if I instead replace libc with the LD_PRELOAD'd lib. < 1253453122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hack it up sufficiently. < 1253453136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then store the actual libc in a closely-guarded area with wolves.) < 1253453164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm, static binaries include the relevant parts from libc in the binary < 1253453167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wouldn't work < 1253453175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use /usr/lib/libc.a < 1253453175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, duh. < 1253453182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly me. < 1253453183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT! < 1253453190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libc can only do tricksy stuff via syscalls. < 1253453217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can make my clever syscalls actually *look at the libc call that was done* (if any), and pass that on to whatever. < 1253453248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes, it uses a vdso to do it, kernel provides the vdso. This is so the best syscall method is always used. At least it is like that on x86. Since x86_64 only uses one method I guess it wouldn't require a vdso < 1253453280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point is, I can theoretically do all this for everything. < 1253453286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, what the fuck is a static binary these days? < 1253453294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(best here means something like "if possible use SYSCALL/SYSRET or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT, fall back on interrupt to do it) < 1253453305 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Scheme compiler does static binaries. < 1253453311 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm sure it's a very widespread system! < 1253453318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your Scheme compiler eats shit! < 1253453320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253453331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, busybox is static here. ICC produces static binaries if you use -fast to make it optimise as much as possible < 1253453339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lots more < 1253453346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busybox isn't on a desktop distro. < 1253453352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't use -fast. < 1253453358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I just don't see static binaries as really being widespread. < 1253453361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At all. < 1253453365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because dynamic linking does have some overhead, you have to use the GOT < 1253453371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just a direct call/jump < 1253453395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could force binding on load if that is what you want < 1253453408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, mozplugger can embed arbitrary X stuff as a Mozilla plugin? < 1253453409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh and ld.so is static iirc. < 1253453410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uber-sweet! < 1253453418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Obviously I'd have to replace low-level things like that < 1253453440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously this approach won't be problem-free; I am after all totally sandboxing stuff. < 1253453463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I bet X will be slow with it < 1253453471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X runs as root, dude. It's exempt. < 1253453471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the 3D bits I mean < 1253453487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be overhead. I'm avoiding that, remember? < 1253453494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so you will only sandbox user processes? Not all as you said above < 1253453501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and X is moving away from needing root < 1253453506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with the new GEM stuff in the kernel < 1253453513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I kill you so you realise that hyperbole is not actually truth? < 1253453529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't know you weren't serious < 1253453559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253453562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the GEM stuff is bleeding edge. I think arch might have it. Possibly < 1253453574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not released yet < 1253453587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The emphasis was that your phat shell pipeline that executes a command per each million line will be run under all of this stuff, every single process. < 1253453593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phat? < 1253453598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And speed is *awesome*. < 1253453601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Fat, ghetto-style. < 1253453604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253453621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An issue with Evince-in-mozplugger is that I don't think menus are very... plugginy. < 1253453627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, menus belong at the top of the screen :-P < 1253453646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um, menus at top of screen is very.... appleish < 1253453652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, window. < 1253453653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not screen. < 1253453657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253453684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so where does mozplugger place them? < 1253453687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I've seen a screenshot, and apart from that it looks great. < 1253453693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like any Firefox plugin. < 1253453699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In the page contents. < 1253453709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1253453715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see). < 1253453727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see). <-- even to view? < 1253453733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1253453737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Ubuntu forums are stupid. < 1253453751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have been able to read threads on the ubuntu forums with no registration < 1253453755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not files. < 1253453755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe only for pics? < 1253453757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also run on vBulletin - proprietary, for-money forum software - when better free alternatives exist. < 1253453758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ì see < 1253453760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I* < 1253453769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, what I'm saying is the Ubuntu forums are fucking retarded. < 1253453772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, phpBB? ;P < 1253453774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They're not run by Canonical) < 1253453784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But they're officially endorsed) < 1253453787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1253453808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upload, upload, upload. < 1253453822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/ufXf8.jpg (jpg not my fault) < 1253453829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evince in Firefox (circa 2005 :P). < 1253453835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway ptrace would work. But for making it fast you might need to do some in kernel module < 1253453846 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253453849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only things that look out of place for a document plugin are the menu and the status bar. < 1253453868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1253453899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately the menu also offers Vital Functions(TM), so it'll have to stay. Modern Evince has no status bar. < 1253453933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what has this got to do with sandboxing? < 1253453933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh jesus christ, /etc/mozpluggerrc is an m4 file. < 1253453937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing. < 1253453943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1253453945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm setting this up for me. < 1253453961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253453982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you know kpdf integrates nicely in konqueror? < 1253453983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1253454003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it works. < 1253454008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo apt-get install mozplugger and it works automatically. < 1253454010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No configuration. < 1253454014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does kwrite for when you open a C file or such. So you get nice syntax highlighting < 1253454019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's already set up with Evince in the default configuration file (among others like kpdf). < 1253454024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Only problem: KDE sucks shit. < 1253454030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, KDE 4 yes < 1253454033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1253454034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All KDE. < 1253454036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KDE 4 slightly less. < 1253454037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and KDE 3 is getting a bit dated < 1253454044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dcop, yes, wonderful. kparts, nice, but... X has that already, you know. < 1253454053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the X embedding is how mozplugger works.) < 1253454067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you like dcop?! < 1253454080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I guess you just love dbus < 1253454089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dcop allowed for an awesome integrated system: you had a command-line for the whole environment. < 1253454091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very lisp machine. < 1253454099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbus seems a bit too enterprisey to be useful for that. < 1253454105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1253454131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, what's the point of kparts? X has that. < 1253454143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, kate is a lot nicer than gedit. I could live with the gnome terminal if I could disable the horrible blinking cursor < 1253454148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't find any setting for that < 1253454164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you don't get the extra menu? ;P < 1253454186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh don't be silly. < 1253454201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I thought you were complaining about it? < 1253454217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but kparts requires application changes, so why not just add a --no-menubar option and call that in the X embedder? < 1253454225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, like, 50,000x less work or so? < 1253454250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the important options show up in the menu of the host app with kparts though < 1253454266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just confusing if the document is below the tab fold. < 1253454272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly wouldn't look for a menu in the global app menu. < 1253454297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how does it work on OS X then for the important menu options? < 1253454322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugins have no menus. Design your UI properly for the context of being in a browser tab, you lazy bum. < 1253454338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what happens with acrobat reader on windows? it has a plugin too < 1253454342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OS X errs on the side of more work, less shiny-automatic-technology-ooh and more final polish.) < 1253454350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't even want to know, but it's probably horrific. < 1253454360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember < 1253454428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, gedit is fine enough as a Notepad replacement (view files, make tiny edits.) < 1253454446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For blinking cursor, eh; there's probably a global Gnome setting. Possibly in GConf somewhere. < 1253454461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the terminal, if you care enough to replace the terminal, why not use urxvt or something else? < 1253454492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, because I like konsole? :P < 1253454502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is what I use < 1253454504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's just Yet Another Mediocre Desktop Environment Terminal. < 1253454516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a very resourceful one < 1253454520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1253454532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of features in konsole < 1253454539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, mozplugger is cool: < 1253454540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :audio/x-sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio < 1253454540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :audio/sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio < 1253454540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :audio/psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio < 1253454540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :audio/x-psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio < 1253454540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : controls noisy: sidplay -16 -f44100 -a "$file" < 1253454549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They Thought Of Everything(TM)! < 1253454632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately evince and mozplugger do not interact very well --modplugger homepage < 1253454658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why so many cursors blink. < 1253454663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty pointless. < 1253454682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the sysvinit tarball contains a file describing how to upgrade from older init versions that were used before linux 2.0 XD < 1253454704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly in a directory called obsolete. The reason I looked was that the file was called README.RIGHT.NOW < 1253454707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck, sysvinit < 1253454717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is what provides /sbin/init < 1253454720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1253454724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoorah for bsdinit. < 1253454738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, on freebsd at least /sbin/init is a static binary < 1253454739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that still uses /sbin/init. < 1253454742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still. < 1253454757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, Compiz screen-dimming alt-tab is so annoying when you just hit it quickly. < 1253454760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a flickery screen. < 1253454768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1253454769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Install *just* the init binary as /sbin/init.new. Now reboot the system, < 1253454769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and stop your bootloader so you can give arguments on the command line. < 1253454769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : With LILO you can usually achieve this by keeping the SHIFT key < 1253454769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pressed during boot up. Enter the name of the kernel image (for LILO, < 1253454769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : TAB shows a list) followed by the argument "init=/sbin/init.new". < 1253454772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The name "init.new" is special, do not use something like "init.test". < 1253454774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1253454777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh! < 1253454781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, BSD init sucks but sysv init sucks more. < 1253454795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what init would you prefer? If you say launchd I will kill you < 1253454799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably my distro would have something Fitter, Happier and More Productive. < 1253454832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Something simple. < 1253454845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole concept of init is basically a hack anyway, but while we're staying with something that's still a unix... < 1253454853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh that file also says that for slackware you should use slackware 3.0 or newer < 1253454858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD init is a bit too centralised and its configuration file is a bit too opaque for my tastes. < 1253454863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sysv is just a clusterfuck. < 1253454870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and debian 1.3 or newer < 1253454881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Remember that slackware isn't as old as it seems from its versions :P < 1253454883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it is possible to get hold of a copy of that old debian release < 1253454885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, so it's an old file. < 1253454886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1253454893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Debian releases are still available. < 1253454897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the repositories are still up too. < 1253454900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, all packages for them? < 1253454912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1253454925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday I was looking for an old woody package because of bitrot made it impossible to compile it with modern gcc < 1253454953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/Debian-0.93R6/ < 1253454958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1995 < 1253454965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And files with that last modification date, too. < 1253454975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never trust modification dates. "touch" is so quick to type. < 1253454982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't want to even try to patch gcc 2.95 (including patch for cross compiling to h8300) to compile under gcc 4.3 < 1253454988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for binutils < 1253454991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and newlib < 1253454995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A minimal installation of Debian GNU/Linux requires slightly over ten < 1253454996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megabytes of disk space. This minimal system includes everything needed < 1253454996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to install and run a Debian GNU/Linux system, but it will be difficult < 1253454996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do anything beyond that without installing additional software < 1253454996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :packages. A typical installation without the X Window System requires < 1253454996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approximately forty megabytes of disk space, and a typical installation < 1253454998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the X Window System requires approximately sixty megabytes of disk < 1253455000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space. The actual disk space requirements will depend greatly on which < 1253455002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optional software packages you install, of course. < 1253455007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah I wanted a woody deb to unpack somewhere outside the normal tree < 1253455018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Debian GNU/Linux requires at least four megabytes of RAM during < 1253455018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :installation and normal system use, and eight megabytes of RAM when < 1253455018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running the X Window System. < 1253455025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-end, man. < 1253455029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253455052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot < 1253455062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it isn't *that* old; ThinkPads were an established brand by then, after all. < 1253455073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: vomitous < 1253455098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate the .avail/.d symlink directory structure crap that's so common < 1253455100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pain to manipulate < 1253455115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot <-- huh, doesn't everyone just use dep based boot scripts already? < 1253455125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: Has anyone ever actually used Jigdo? < 1253455134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, never heard of it, what is it? < 1253455146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a method that Debian use to distribute .isos and nobody else uses ever. < 1253455149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also nobody downloads it that way. < 1253455149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever. < 1253455157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must predate bittorrent because it's very wtf. < 1253455168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1253455170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, because not everything has dependency information in initscripts? < 1253455173 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: System to take template file and packages and build bit-exact ISO from those. < 1253455182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, gentoo used it for *years* < 1253455208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: yes, AnMaster can do that < 1253455211 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it uses the same packages as downloaded by apt-get. Saves a lot of disk space from servers. < 1253455212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*instantrimshot.com* < 1253455222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm < 1253455233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, since all the servers carry the .isos too. < 1253455247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It frees up NEGATIVE space! Woohoo! :P < 1253455253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, use venti, thus the same files only need to be stored once < 1253455261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that you get abount +/- 0 < 1253455262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, .iso vs a bunch of packages. < 1253455270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shared files. < 1253455298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, doesn't the iso have the package files stored as such on it to be able to install them. Well the base system packages only obviously < 1253455310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus of course a few binaries to run the installer < 1253455318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, installer itself and support files < 1253455320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but I doubt there are too many shared *blocks*. < 1253455328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1253455328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAAB. < 1253455329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my system, "mzscheme" and "scratchbox-core" both are missing the LSB tags. < 1253455329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1253455334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAABBBBC. < 1253455335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1253455347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even a one byte misalignment will remove all sharing. < 1253455354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why does mzscheme need a init script... < 1253455360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an* < 1253455374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It has that HTTP server it can optionally start at boot-up. < 1253455381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhuh < 1253455387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1253455393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anyone uses it, but it exists. < 1253455395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's PLT Scheme, not MzScheme that has that, though. < 1253455397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, they do < 1253455401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLT Scheme is an environment < 1253455403 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The template would only need support for literal insert and range copy from... Then one-byte misalignments wouldn't matter too much. < 1253455406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MzScheme is the implementation < 1253455415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite a neat server < 1253455425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has continuation-based web programming and all that nice stuff. < 1253455450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from gentoo init script for iptables: < 1253455452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depend() { < 1253455452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : before net < 1253455452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : use logger < 1253455452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253455454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: True, but he advocated changing the storage mechanism to venti, which wouldn't help. < 1253455458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and making no other changes) < 1253455458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are optional ones < 1253455472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for required ones it would use "need" instead of "use" < 1253455490 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so Gentoo doesn't use the LSB-standard dependency tags then, but does a custom thing? < 1253455501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also "provide" for stuff like postfix/qmail/sendmail/ssmtp. They all "provide mta" < 1253455503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuuuck the LSB. < 1253455514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the FHS. For some reason standards always err to the worse. < 1253455515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yep < 1253455550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, lsb is not something ever heard of on gentoo. There was even a 1 april joke about gentoo switching to LSB and thus also RPM. < 1253455561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RPM *vomit < 1253455561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1253455564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\n\*/*/ < 1253455593 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just have full template image, compress it with something that can compress repetitions real well (bzip2 for instance) and have series of ranged XORs from. < 1253455622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This hostname could probably do with being changed from "ehird-desktop". < 1253455634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To... bip. Or blip. < 1253455723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blop. Yes, that's it. Blop. < 1253455740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now how do I change my hostname all point-'n-clicky with Ubuntu... < 1253455772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, gentoo doesn't use the classical runlevels either < 1253455785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can boot Linux easily without runlevels? < 1253455791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mwahaha! Another thing to scrap! < 1253455799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you need 0 and 6 at least < 1253455803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 too I guess < 1253455807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus an extra one < 1253455817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gentoo uses 0,1,3,6 < 1253455824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 3 is the normal one < 1253455826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you use stock init though, right? < 1253455838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, unsure. I think 0 and 6 at least may have special meanings < 1253455839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm not sure I really want to go interacting with the kernel at such an intimate level. < 1253455845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not ready for that kind of relationship. < 1253455861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. gentoo uses named runlevels < 1253455866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "default" and "boot" < 1253455873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What's 6? Isn't that higher than the usual desktoppy runlevel?) < 1253455875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can create extra ones as you like < 1253455878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 6 is reboot < 1253455881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is halt < 1253455886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is single user. < 1253455892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, definitions vary < 1253455896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's anything that actually parses PATH itself. < 1253455900 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little known, but there are runlevels 7, 8 and 9 too. Usually not used for anything. < 1253455905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about libc? < 1253455907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just PATH=magic and then override the lookup thing. < 1253455911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: libc is mine, all mine! < 1253455914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, really? < 1253455915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1253455921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For the separate-package-directory thing.) < 1253455923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen the different numeric runlevels used much anywhere either; Debian has pretty much identical 2-5, I think; Slackware differentiated between "X" and "not X". < 1253455962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh and I think some apps do too. iirc I was working on doing that in befunge, for use with the system() < 1253455980 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And then the sysvinit has special levels a, b and c. But those aren't runlevels. < 1253455988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Durnit. < 1253455997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, =) < 1253456012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm < 1253456017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll point PATH=/magic, where /magic is an FS with every file possible, and they're all executable, and they all print out "Stop parsing PATH, you nincompoop." and then exit. < 1253456019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1253456039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is wrong with PATH < 1253456057 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They instead execute some commands but don't change the runlevel (unlike 'init 7', which really would switch runlevel). < 1253456065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Separate package directories = oh, your PATH is 3MiB big. < 1253456065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh it seems my ubuntu laptop uses runlevel 2 for normal usage < 1253456077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess it dropped most of the normal runlevel-y stuff too < 1253456092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, "oh, you have a directory cluttering up your FS just to cater to stubborn programs with symlinks or whatever". < 1253456097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is that what happens on that distro which I forgot the name of atm < 1253456116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you tried it iirc < 1253456116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gobo uses shim directories, yes. < 1253456122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes gobo < 1253456130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GoboLinux also has GNOME 2.0 in its repositories, iirc. < 1253456131 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK, $PATH can't be 3MB... :-> < 1253456133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally. < 1253456135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNOME 2.0, full stop. < 1253456137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "shim"? isn't that something related to scanner in windows? < 1253456141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still used Sawfish. < 1253456147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from around 2000. < 1253456148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some dll or such < 1253456157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why not? < 1253456160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still have it in their repositories as the latest gnome! < 1253456211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $ file /bin/* | grep static < 1253456211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/ld_static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped < 1253456213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from ubuntu < 1253456215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea why < 1253456218 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Kernel limits for amount of information that can be passed through exec (since that must be allocated as kernel memory). < 1253456223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that is ld as in ld from binutils < 1253456225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as in ld.so < 1253456267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provided by binutils-static < 1253456287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh used for building kernel modules during boot on the fly if needed for mounting /usr it seems < 1253456292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not compiling, just linking < 1253456296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1253456303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sure does sound slow. < 1253456319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ file /usr/bin/* | grep static < 1253456320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/mbchk: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped < 1253456320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ < 1253456321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queer. < 1253456330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mbchk - check the format of a Multiboot kernel < 1253456331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I guess it is meant for when you boot with a new kernel < 1253456334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Grub. < 1253456347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was just going to say it was grub related iirc < 1253456356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is /sbin/ldconfig.real < 1253456356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1253456382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/sbin/grub is obviously static. < 1253456388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ldconfig.real too, yeah. < 1253456389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah yes, ldconfig must be static < 1253456390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all. < 1253456402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lib/klibc-twzlwPED6FKuYrtGTmP6bjJ3CHQ.so: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped < 1253456404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an impressive filename. < 1253456419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well... that's it. < 1253456429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have some more in /usr/sbin, called unhide-linux26, unhide-posix, unhide-tcp < 1253456436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's only one file per directory on Ubuntu that's static, heh. < 1253456439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sometimes even 0. < 1253456446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In conclusion: Static binaries? Nosiree, not here. < 1253456456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, those unhide ones are related to some rootkit checker iirc < 1253456464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I have /usr/bin/makedumpfile < 1253456468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this on ubuntu < 1253456484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what makedumpfile is < 1253456505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a rather closer to stock Ubuntu, so mine is likely more typical. < 1253456506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh related to kexec-to-dump-stuff-on-oops it seems < 1253456517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, I have installed a few more packages yes < 1253456518 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason its named that way is that klibc has absolutely no forwards or backwards binary compatiblity. < 1253456541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, how comes? < 1253456542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Is it so incompatible that it requires something close to a UUID or keyboard-forehead in its name? < 1253456581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib/libnfsidmap_static.so.0.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped < 1253456584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems ironic < 1253456594 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, ntfs-3g is statically linked here... < 1253456600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Alanis Morisette. < 1253456604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not ironic. < 1253456611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh? < 1253456631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, static and dynamic. Of course it probably means static something else < 1253456632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1253456634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet Another Sorta-Internet Pop Culture Reference. < 1253456647 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The dynamic linking mechanism it uses is really primitive. IIRC, it works by abusing PT_INTERP. < 1253456701 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: IIRC, programs linked against klibc claim that the klibc is dynamic linker to use. Then the kernel will link klibc into application. < 1253456712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PT_INTERP... isn't that the thing that says "I want /lib64/ld.so" or "I want /lib/ld-linux.so" (or whatever the 32-bit ld.so is called) < 1253456716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Ouch. < 1253456726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not surprised, though. Linux is kludge upon kludge. < 1253456744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, PT_INTERP is POSIX though < 1253456751 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: AFAIK, that linking capaiblity is required for ELF support. < 1253456760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well no < 1253456765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ELF though < 1253456766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not POSIX < 1253456775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX is kludge upon kludge, except now you have to be very specific about exactly *what* kludges you use. < 1253456781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for standardisation! < 1253456782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, :D < 1253456796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, windows is way way worseEx. < 1253456820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows has more of a history to justify its kludginess. < 1253456852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? everyone wants backward compatiblity. Not only the windows ppl < 1253456864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is OS X any better? Not IME < 1253456973 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian apt-get funkyness: Package that declares both conflicts and provodes for "essential" package will trigger nasty warning on install... :-/ < 1253457005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OS X's base is obviously quite kludgy, although the BSDs are generally more pure. < 1253457015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why on earth? < 1253457015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as soon as you step into Objective-C land it's very clean. < 1253457029 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The package I noted that in: xz-utils. It provodes and conflicts with lzma, which is considered essential. < 1253457039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Provode! < 1253457042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"file /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/bin/* /usr/sbin/* | grep static" outputs just /sbin/ldconfig, nothing else. < 1253457054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what distro? < 1253457059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian, of course. < 1253457083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it's not "of course" because I have that laptop too. < 1253457085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should make that their motto. < 1253457088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Debian, of course". < 1253457097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the NetBSD guys might complain. < 1253457097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/sbin/lvm: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped < 1253457097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/sbin/lvm.static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped < 1253457098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution: < 1253457099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder... < 1253457104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth happened there < 1253457105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it runs Debian/kNetBSD, of course. < 1253457152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course of course, a distro is a distro < 1253457169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A distro is a distro, of course of course, and you can't ...something a distro, of course of course. < 1253457171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you don't understand that, ask ais) < 1253457190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/sbin/iptables-static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped < 1253457192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1253457202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does what it says on the tin. < 1253457217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, it doesn't. Read again < 1253457227 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1253457229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hah. < 1253457259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, another thing that may be static: < 1253457260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/sbin/prelink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped < 1253457279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not standard on ubuntu < 1253457317 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I have one statically linked utility that has sole purpose of unlinking ld.so.cache... < 1253457351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm? < 1253457365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ldconfig you mean? < 1253457401 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, 'saveme'. Absolutely no arguments to control it. < 1253457413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what distro < 1253457415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why < 1253457433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey they redesigned (slightly) kernel.org < 1253457445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/y/y,/ < 1253457452 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian < 1253457466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, ok, why is saveme useful? < 1253457486 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If ld.so.cache happens to get busted for some reason... < 1253457502 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, its not ld.so.cache, its ld.so.preload < 1253457511 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-/ < 1253457520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never even seen ld.so.preload < 1253457556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from man ld.so... ld.so.preload seems like a extremely idiotic idea < 1253457812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annoying that XChat and XChat-Gnome both suck. < 1253457837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, xchat-gnome yes. But xchat is quite good IMO. Best one after ERC. < 1253457859 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1253457861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, XChat-Gnome is better than XChat because it has all the flaws apart from overcomplexity, and is lighter. < 1253457867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it still sucks. < 1253457869 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you live in the united states, it's too early to be awake < 1253457876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do? < 1253457881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, so do you. < 1253457897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, I thought ehird was in UK? < 1253457910 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1253457920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am. < 1253457925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So bsmntbombdood is on crack or something. < 1253457927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, yes I'm 100% sure, unless he moved very recently < 1253457952 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1253457964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood is confused about my location as he is his gender. < 1253457984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, parse error < 1253457996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after "as") < 1253457997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood becomes bsmntbombgirl every now and then and vice versa :-P < 1253458001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253458036 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am 100% sure ehird lives in on of those great lakes states < 1253458046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: how < 1253458055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wondering what kind of thought process lead to this < 1253458067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but from my /whois you can plainly see I'm in the UK. or at least sshing in there...) < 1253458072 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you said so < 1253458076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...when? < 1253458076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, * [ehird] (n=ehird@91.105.73.170): Elliott Hird < 1253458082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: geoip < 1253458083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to look up that IP < 1253458085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253458089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was going to get to that! < 1253458093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: no seriously, who are you confusing me with? :D < 1253458128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIPE claims it is UK when I looked it up that way < 1253458139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inetnum: 91.105.64.0 - 91.105.127.255 < 1253458140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :descr: Range2 NewcastleUT /18 < 1253458145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mnt-by: Wanadoo-UK-MNT < 1253458167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and later down there is a more specific entry < 1253458171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wanadoo? I don't think they've absorbed Orange... < 1253458174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :route: 91.104.0.0/13 < 1253458174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :descr: Range2 LLU Subs < 1253458177 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most odd < 1253458178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, of course. < 1253458179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :origin: AS35736 < 1253458179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mnt-by: Wanadoo-UK-MNT < 1253458179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source: RIPE # Filtered < 1253458179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1253458188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1253458190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1253458192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you do? < 1253458192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1253458195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's news < 1253458197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orange is Wanadoo < 1253458205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, so I moved from Wanadoo to other ISPs to Wanadoo. < 1253458206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. < 1253458210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it was called freeserve before, but. < 1253458220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, weren't you going to switch to some tiny ISP? < 1253458224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1253458231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened with those plans? < 1253458237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as with new computer plans? < 1253458237 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it's a reasonable time then < 1253458240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could happen immediately, but you know me. I'd want to have the domain ready for the DNS beforehand. < 1253458246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too < 1253458248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypocrite :p < 1253458256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The new computer plans just morphed. < 1253458267 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 ." < 1253458282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too <-- aha! you wouldn't have said "too" unless you were lying above about being in UK! ;P < 1253458288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who the hell even uses Yahoo Messenger? < 1253458289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dun dun dun < 1253458296 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1253458331 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm having a weird hungover can't sleep after 5 hours of sleep < 1253458355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat an unborn fetus < 1253458366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't help hangovers, but it enrages pro-lifers < 1253458379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also anti-cannibalists, but < 1253458402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eat an unborn fetus <-- somehow that first parsed as "urban" on first try. < 1253458413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need the organic country fetuses. < 1253458418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Support local farmers! < 1253458434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wait for it. You want to know what happened on the second try? < 1253458438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unicorn" < 1253458444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then finally correct on the third try < 1253458459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unborn urban unicorn fetuses. < 1253458465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253458786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why window resizing doesn't show it as you do it with Compiz. < 1253458798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, come on; how am I supposed to size a window to my liking if I don't know what it'll look like? < 1253458820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed in Compiz control center. < 1253458886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. < 1253458902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice to have a card that has literally no good drivers that I can use, no matter what freedoms I want. < 1253458931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- even with metacity on intel graphics it works very nice < 1253458944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for kwin on nvidia drivers. But that is expected < 1253458952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, Metacity doesn't resize the window in-place does it? < 1253458966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver. < 1253458970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it previews as I go along at least < 1253458991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Window moving is smooth, I guess; it just flickers. < 1253458994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tiny jerk every now and then for konsole, none at all in kate < 1253458996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, it redraws each pixel. < 1253458999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a bit jerky at the edges. < 1253459008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very slow. < 1253459011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of animation < 1253459014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the actual moving is quick) < 1253459019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not so here. < 1253459026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver. < 1253459026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver. < 1253459026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver. < 1253459026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver. < 1253459032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1253459033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am aware what the problem is. < 1253459038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was just gloating :P < 1253459040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :radeonhd doesn't seem to give me 3D, or something, and the only fglrx supporting this X11 version doesn't support my card. < 1253459048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thing is, it worked last Ubuntu < 1253459060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where fglrx was a version supporting my card, and the X11 version was older < 1253459067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was perfect and flowers and kittens then < 1253459067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, file a bug which devs will look at in a few months if you are lucky < 1253459073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1253459074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what < 1253459077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubuntu < 1253459080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1253459081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying what < 1253459085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"please make this not suck"? < 1253459098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that seems to be what half the bugs currently there do < 1253459102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll respond "lol donate code and cocksucking to these wonderful LIBRE drivers" < 1253459115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps even just "the free drivers work perfectly. what are you talking about." < 1253459126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NO. FLAWS." < 1253459132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there isn't a lot anyone can do about closed source not supporting current systems < 1253459145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Except that the hardware specs for ATI cards are Free. < 1253459154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, work is underway iirc < 1253459160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, very slowly. < 1253459165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the specs haven't been free for very long < 1253459167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not help! < 1253459189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about I bludgeon the X11 developers to death and tell them to never break backwards-compatibility ever again? :P < 1253459199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am willing to sacrifice my principles for fglrx! < 1253459207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then you get something like POSIX in a few years < 1253459216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh fuck, my notebook will have an even older ATI card < 1253459221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, patches on patches < 1253459222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kill me XD < 1253459229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, buy a new notebook then < 1253459236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, it'll fail horribly at Compiz, most likely < 1253459236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead < 1253459236 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1253459238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least be superfluous < 1253459241 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will there ever be an x12? < 1253459242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no worries < 1253459245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Widescreen, dude < 1253459249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, x12 of what? < 1253459249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: no < 1253459252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: X11 < 1253459256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the 11th version of X < 1253459257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can survive widescreen < 1253459259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1253459262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1253459279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like there will never be Mac OS Y (or Mac OS XI) < 1253459284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably) < 1253459300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, because the only acceptable widescreen is 12", which, while being as wide as a 14" 4:3, has such a huge screen border and is widescreen, and so it's really tiny. < 1253459314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12" 16:10 + big border is simply not an acceptable screen size for my main machine. < 1253459324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why the big border < 1253459329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's what the X200 has. < 1253459333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1253459345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is "big border" by your standards < 1253459359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.goodcleantech.com/images/Lenovo%20X200.jpg < 1253459391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you want comparison, < 1253459406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34871.jpg < 1253459412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pictured: Big border, big border, small border. < 1253459439 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, at least with X.Org we finally got a X11R7; it was X11R6 for quite a long long time. (1994-2005, based on Wikipedia; they got from X1 to X11 in three years, from X11 to X11R6 in seven, and it took eleven years to get through X11R6...) < 1253459439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it simply makes the already tiny 12" 16:10 screen even smaller. < 1253459455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an ultraultraportable; a secondary machine for those with money. < 1253459460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the middle one seems to have same border size as the left one? < 1253459462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And little sense. < 1253459465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1253459484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X200, X300 (13", has CD drive, slower processor), XX61 < 1253459486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*X61 < 1253459495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(X300 is concurrent with X200) < 1253459531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also what is wrong with that? Just consider paintings, often with huge borders. Gold coloured. Compared to those, that monitor border is really subtle and small < 1253459537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1253459547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just imagine some baroque border around a monitor < 1253459558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please shut up, or I'll start taking what you're saying seriously. < 1253459579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, :D < 1253459629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway the X200 seems to have acceptable border size < 1253459636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, for a larger laptop. < 1253459648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the other pic, with three computers, what model is the thin border one < 1253459650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That whole thing is a bit over 30.5cm wide. < 1253459657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do the maths. < 1253459663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That screen is *tiny*. < 1253459666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: X61, the older X series. < 1253459691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about flushed to edges, I would say it's keyboard is that < 1253459695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 12" and really tiny, but its screen is actually taller, and it is much smaller psychologically (as opposed to being as wide as a normal 14" 4:3 notebook) < 1253459737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want the X61, but it's at least understandable, as opposed to the insane X200: all the wideness of a full-sized notebook, none of the screen. < 1253459766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the extra border though for the wide screen one < 1253459769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make sense < 1253459778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Camera, antennas, etc. < 1253459783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cheaper display, ... :P) < 1253459787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why camera? < 1253459792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Joking on that last one; the X200 is far from cheap.) < 1253459797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For... camera purposes? < 1253459803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know? A camera? < 1253459810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Takes pictures and videos of you? < 1253459812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but why waste space on that < 1253459826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a waste because you don't use it? < 1253459845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, when you can use that for making the border smaller < 1253459870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a no computer. They have infinitely small borders. < 1253459872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, no. < 1253459874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antennas. < 1253459880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh about older thinkpads, you said you wanted pre-n? I guess you plan to get a PC-card then < 1253459881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, dropping WiFi is not an option. < 1253459894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will stick out a fair bit < 1253459895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't need it < 1253459899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1253459918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said I can get 800kiB/s with g < 1253459962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes assuming good reception it should work out. You will get lower speed when you are getting near the limit of the range of the AP of course < 1253459989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as I can get 800kiB/s from across the room the router is in, I'm fine. < 1253459996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, should work < 1253460026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get something like 2-3 MB/s for scp-over-802.11g here. < 1253460032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one of those infamous Linksys Linux blue-green-and-antennas routers, which probably does WiFi well. < 1253460044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infamous? < 1253460046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 1000 or 1024 < 1253460063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pcgenie.co.nz/images/products/WRT54GL.jpg < 1253460074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much "the" wireless router for Linux people, no? < 1253460076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah those < 1253460085 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably MiB/s, I guess that's what scp says. < 1253460096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and possibly. I don't have that model though. < 1253460098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what router? < 1253460101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some speedtouch instead < 1253460104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: http://masnugie.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wap54g2.jpg < 1253460119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Linksys buddies! :P < 1253460122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L or normal? < 1253460124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fizzie, different model < 1253460130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the front panel < 1253460135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different number of green dots < 1253460138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just newer/older < 1253460141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I doubt he took that photo < 1253460148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there wasn't a "non-L" model of WAP54G back then; I'm not sure there is one now. < 1253460157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch. < 1253460160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes, different model! Newer model and older model. < 1253460160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There is. < 1253460163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are they same? < 1253460168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-L was Linux, then non-L became vxworks. < 1253460181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then L became Linux for the grubby GPLists and firmware replacers. < 1253460184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, well, it was "non-L" back when there were only non-L models. < 1253460226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch. <-- no ethernet at all? Or just one ethernet? < 1253460239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just one interface. < 1253460241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253460306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The WRT54G has a hardware switch; IIRC the different ports show up to the kernel as one interface but the packets get 802.1Q vlan tags appropriately. < 1253460321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the WAP one has just a 2 MiB flash, it's a bit tricky to get alternative firmware for it; at least the default openwrt builds are too fat to fit. < 1253460325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why vlan? < 1253460360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean it is somehow faked as one interface + vlan tags instead of several interfaces? < 1253460361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1253460361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So you can have different behaviour for the ports; one of them is the "WAN" port, for external interweb, while the others are for LAN. < 1253460369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1253460412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, about 2 MiB flash, what about using a basic software that then loads the rest over PXE boot or root on nfs < 1253460415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from somewhere on the LAN < 1253460417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not really "faked" as one interface, it's just that the Ethernet switching is done in hardware; there's just one switch port directly connected to the WRT board and configured to get those vlan tags. (This is all based on what I remember about it.) < 1253460433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 8 MiB of RAM, so, uh, there's not too much of that either. < 1253460445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1253460453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More RAM than flash :D < 1253460474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original WRT54G has 4 MiB flash and 16 MiB RAM, so that's a bit larger. < 1253460478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not strange at all. After all, it will likely need to keep lots of routing info in ram < 1253460479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1253460677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks about sandboxing < 1253460798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, kernel module may be the way to go. Hook in around the same place as SELinux and do stuff there? < 1253460799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's a 6-port programmable switch, and the default configuration puts ports 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in vlan0, and ports 0 and 5 to vlan1; 0 is the one labeled "WAN", 1-4 are the LAN ports and 5 is the one that's eth0 to the WRT; then the stock firmware bridges vlan0 and eth1 (LAN and wifi), and configures routing between vlan1 (interwebs) and br0 (locals). < 1253460813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i mean theoretical; to start with i will just ld_preload For My Sanity. < 1253460839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, why are there two WAN ports? < 1253460873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where? < 1253460885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err you said 0 and 5 were on the same vlan? < 1253460908 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; to port 0 you connect whatever you want, and port 5 is the one that's physically wired to the WRT board. < 1253460920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, LD_PRELOAD... Sanity? Surely you are joking. < 1253460929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be very useful to have a single-port vlan on an Ethernet switch, given that the packets wouldn't, you know, go anywhere. < 1253460939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to do and the simplest method to test without assembling a distro. < 1253460955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh so port 5 is internal? < 1253460955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just add "LD_PRELOAD=foo.so" to the start of a command and I'm sorted. < 1253460989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and is connected to eth0. I seriously hope that it is just a few wires, rather than actually an ethernet connector inside < 1253460991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It also has the special "keep the vlan tags" bit set; for the other ports, the switch doesn't add those. < 1253461014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, do you think you can root a box with just syscalls? < 1253461024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably on the same piece of board. < 1253461044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on if I'm root or not at that point. If i'm root in a chroot I could break out of it < 1253461048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can root a box at all, you can certainly root it with just syscalls, given that everything else is just user-mode code you could include in the binary. < 1253461053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope. < 1253461053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it was an old kernel I could abuse vmsplice or whatever < 1253461084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just trying to figure out how to crack anarchy golf using its seeming lack of syscall overriding :-) < 1253461122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, you couldn't root it as such, but possibly do other unintended things, depending on where the process is. Maybe fill /tmp or something? < 1253461128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or find out what users exist in /etc/passwd < 1253461140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can allocate >50MB memory" is one of the crack conditions < 1253461147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if it runs without privs and in an empty chroot... < 1253461149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In total: < 1253461150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * can access network < 1253461150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * can be root < 1253461150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * can allocate >50MB memory < 1253461150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * meet stupid things < 1253461166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, all at once or any of them? < 1253461171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you meet stupid things, it is the bug, I gather. < 1253461174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay Engrish! < 1253461175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Any. < 1253461223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, there are other ways to restrict the ones mentioned. For network: iptables with "owner" match to match uid, pid or executable name iirc. For allocation there is limits. < 1253461260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "be root" well obviously systemcalls doesn't allow that without going through authorised ways, like suid binaries < 1253461267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, given a kernel that does what it should, you should be able to block those three things without any manual syscall blocking. < 1253461302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about meeting stupid things < 1253461314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What? But you do that every day here on the channel! < 1253461326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey! I am NOT a "thing". < 1253461327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never met anyone when walking through the directory hierarchy. It's so lonely in /etc... < 1253461328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253461333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :P < 1253461380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should write some app to allow you to walk around on your file system in a 3D env < 1253461387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly this has been done < 1253461390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Unix. I know this! < 1253461399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? < 1253461409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsn ftw < 1253461416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsn? < 1253461431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsn is unix, she knows this. < 1253461433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives "FOX Sports" as first hit in google < 1253461439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.siliconbunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/3060c037-069f-4715-a01e-c30e53e505a2.jpg < 1253461463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As seen famously in Jurassic Park. < 1253461463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ooh nice, but I was thinking more along the lines of rougelike in 3D < 1253461468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""It's the Unix system!" < 1253461469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Quite so! < 1253461475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: She knows this. < 1253461477 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1253461482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has it at school, yes. < 1253461483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the references < 1253461485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253461492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1253461503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never seen jurassic park btw < 1253461504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell it's a mainframe because it has blinkenlights and is big. < 1253461510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *I < 1253461514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I've < 1253461519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1253461521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks to that comment I just wrote "jurassic machine" instead of "jurassic park". < 1253461528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JURASSIC MACHINE < 1253461542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has a more badass terminologe ever been used? < 1253461556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminology, n. plural of terminologe. < 1253461556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107290/quotes has the quote (just search for "UNIX") but without context it really doesn't say much. < 1253461562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what are you on about. Can you explain what the hell you are talking about < 1253461574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1253461586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsn < 1253461597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how that quotes page is filled with terrible quotes < 1253461609 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-2-171.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253461617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1253461629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Henry Wu: You're implying that a group composed entirely of female animals will... breed? < 1253461629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way. < 1253461634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat? < 1253461640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he expecting them to mutate their own genes in the past or something? < 1253461684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what I had in mind was something like... a rouge like dungeon in 3D, representing your file system. < 1253461708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably adapt psdoom to file system use. < 1253461730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh that process killer one, ah yes seems a good base. < 1253461748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doom is ALWAYS a good base. < 1253461749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://psdoom.sourceforge.net/ even lists in Goals: "Possibly make other interfaces besides one to 'ps', such as a file management module. " < 1253461768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A restricted directory is accessed by getting the blue sudo key. < 1253461806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253461821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253461883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are all the screenshots so small < 1253461891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost unreadable < 1253461901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even on my low dpi desktop display < 1253461912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completey unreadable on my laptop of course < 1253461917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from the 90s < 1253461925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's the real resolution of Doom < 1253461929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :320x200 < 1253461936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1993, dude < 1253461944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what dpi was the screens back then... < 1253461946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give it some Ctrl + magic < 1253461952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, CRt. < 1253461954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*CRT < 1253461955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Give it some Ctrl + magic <-- ? < 1253461959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl-+ < 1253461962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zoom in < 1253461976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that zooms the text only it seems < 1253461987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, now it works < 1253462006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 320x200 would fill your whole, I dunno, 15" CRT? < 1253462010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So about 13" viewable) < 1253462032 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-12-246.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253462075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's something like 30 dpi; not too shabby. Pixels smaller than a millimeter is nothing to sneer at. < 1253462095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, the pixels stretched out. < 1253462099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This *is* a CRT... < 1253462128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1253462146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRTs do have a native DPI-style limit from the shadow mask/aperture grille, though. < 1253462267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there tends to be a max res you can set on CRTs too. So clearly it is limited in some way. < 1253462314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what he said... < 1253462359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I agreed with him... < 1253462388 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1253462522 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253462534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I found an old picture of that Performa mac I used to have: http://zem.fi/~fis/random.jpg < 1253462567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like an old Mac. < 1253462581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that keyboard is a clicky one. Hope you kept it. < 1253462588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice theme, btw. < 1253462591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stereotypically assumes fizzie keeps pictures of his computers instead of family < 1253462617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, well, it was an ADB thing, and anyway "part of the box", so since I sold the computer, I sort-of had to give the keyboard with it too. < 1253462632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can tell by that flat power-on key. < 1253462644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses real mechanical keyswitches. Alps ones, not even manufactured any more. In fact that keyboard is famous. < 1253462649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn on the flat power < 1253462650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You coulda sold it for as much money as the computer. :P < 1253462669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I also found the posters I had on the wall at that apartment: http://zem.fi/~fis/juliste3.jpg < 1253462707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They look like very dull old printer posters. < 1253462746 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one on the left was written by mooz, I think. Too bad they're not really readable. < 1253462784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ECE7D4 is quite a nice background colour. < 1253462801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the right one a picture of? < 1253462803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a desktop, that is. < 1253462813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the isometric comic < 1253462815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that i think < 1253462835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of it < 1253462862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'll try to locate the link. < 1253462873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/only_when_youre_ready/ < 1253462884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to http://www.pixelcomic.net/ :( < 1253462925 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253462972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the picture I was actually looking for was: http://zem.fi/~fis/skreen.jpg -- that's my old CRT, which I typically ran at 1600x1200 even though it didn't really support a resolution that high very well, especially at the edges of the screen, as you can probably see. < 1253463019 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a bit of extra blurring also from the photography, but the RGB misalignment is very real.) < 1253463090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That must have hurt your eyes. < 1253463095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#/usr/bin/?? < 1253463109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!/usr/bin/ff, I think. < 1253463114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "ff", the name of my Befunge interpreter. < 1253463115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's a !. < 1253463116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a * < 1253463124 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's #!/... < 1253463132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffl? < 1253463137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the last character < 1253463139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff1? < 1253463145 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a ], to end the prompt. < 1253463161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A... prompt? < 1253463165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is a shebang line. < 1253463174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought ] too first < 1253463175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the name of the channel; it's an irssi screenshot. < 1253463193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought that was the start of a shell in a split screen(1) type thing < 1253463197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun channel name < 1253463217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was one of those "like a query, except with four people" channels. < 1253463238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ff" is the name of your befunge interpreter? < 1253463239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very likely to have others that desperately wanted the coveted "#!/usr/bin/ff" channel too. < 1253463288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The name of one, yes. It was a strictly Befunge-93 type of thing, with an emphasis on "fast", and I don't think I ever released it. < 1253463304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1253463356 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: About the only distinctive thing in it was that it had (with suitable C preprocessor macros) four copies of most instructions, for all cardinal directions, with the IP movement parts and a computed-goto-to-next-instruction inlined directly after the instruction processing. < 1253463377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1253463384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- PRIVMSG :Too many recipients. Only 1 processed < 1253463391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC clients that disable a,b users suck! < 1253463392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1253463393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :servers < 1253463539 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might also have had a nonstandard 256x256 playfield, to make it so that a single "unsigned char ip[2];" worked as the IP, with byte-sized ++ and -- doing automatic wrapping, and "*(unsigned short *)ip" as the offset to the playfield. < 1253463653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too. < 1253463760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc :) (although it was obvious) < 1253463837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnah, I wonder how many days it will take me to unlearn the "hover a cursor in the top navigation bar in search of the Darths & Droids link" reflex. < 1253463865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why/ < 1253463867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1253463900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/\n\*\?/?/, just to make it oh-so-clear. < 1253463925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wonder, why unlearn, why such a reflex, why something else? (Not that I probably have any answers.) < 1253463927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, read it hours ago, and was afk when you joined < 1253463934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn :P < 1253463935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Why unlearn? < 1253463967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the link is no longer there. < 1253463975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why is the link no longer there < 1253463983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I don't know. < 1253463989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253463989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean iwc nav bar < 1253463991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not your browser < 1253463993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1253463993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are strange! < 1253463994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1253464002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's less amusing. < 1253464013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apologies. < 1253464013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What did you use to measure speed? < 1253464015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah it irritates me too that they moved them to the bottom < 1253464035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change is bad and you should feel bad. < 1253464041 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, I don't remember, it was so long ago. life.bf, I would guess. < 1253464061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't it run forever? < 1253464097 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you can measure the character output flow rate. :p < 1253464100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i've started going from mezzacotta instead of from iwc, less scrolling to find the links < 1253464136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ < 1253464139 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have a bookmark, I've just gotten into the habit of navigating there from iwc. < 1253464139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1253464207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156 actually made me laugh) < 1253464231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: DMM said in the forum the upper menu got too long when he added Archive Binge iirc < 1253464247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he divided it up < 1253464260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er bar < 1253464263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers RiemannZeta(Garfield) < 1253464268 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, is there an Archive Binge link somewhere, then? < 1253464320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm good question < 1253464323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253464350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was Awkward Fumbles < 1253464353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's another DMM feature? Saw it advertised on somewhere, hadn't realized it was so. < 1253464371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Archive Binge, I mean. < 1253464377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1253464425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it... < 1253464453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too. <-- hm.... I wonder if that could be translated to 98, and if so, how efficient it would be < 1253464464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to rewrite the borders as program expanded < 1253464481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on how the program behaved it could be a huge slow down or a small speed up I guess < 1253464488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it was that Facebook link < 1253464489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't sound all that feasible; you'd have to somehow catch all possible deltas. < 1253464489 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Befunge-93. < 1253464503 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you added something at the end. < 1253464508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... < 1253464515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah hm true < 1253464525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The "quote ← comment" syntax is confusing. < 1253464526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do it some other way, that way I always tend to miss what you say on the first read. < 1253464527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forgot about messy non-cardinal deltas < 1253464538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confusing but common. < 1253464542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is <-- not ← < 1253464555 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same general shape, anyway. < 1253464561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I shall use %% or // then I guess < 1253464567 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent. < 1253464576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpha-conversion? < 1253464586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :α-conversion. < 1253464595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah, what does that term mean? < 1253464601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this context < 1253464608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Renaming bound variables in lambda expressions. < 1253464629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λx.x is equivalent to λz.z. < 1253464680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1253464800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, doing it in 98 should work fine, just handle noncardinals separately. < 1253464814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrapping around with them is likely quite rare. < 1253464815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent. MY RESPONSE: is this equivalent too? < 1253464823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it... < 1253464826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hosting is cheap < 1253464891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i suppose. it's just if it gets _really_ popular, and is used for a lot of external webcomics... < 1253464893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We only include webcomics whose authors have given us permission to make feeds of their work. We do this out of respect for their work and allowing authors to control the distribution of their own property." < 1253464896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's useless, then. < 1253464911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how much bandwidth could it possibly use < 1253464913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you have to detect that condition though < 1253464914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't host the images < 1253464923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at most, a few hundred gb a month < 1253464926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like $30 < 1253464928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so instead of testing if it is in range you now test if it is cardinal or not < 1253464938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i don't know. i suppose they must have thought about it. < 1253464946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Why? < 1253464952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irregularwebcomic is really popular and free. < 1253464955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hosting is cheap. < 1253464958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's never the cost. < 1253464967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you're *HUGE*) < 1253464970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: otherwise they wouldn't make the pledge < 1253464983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just "ads in RSS feeds suck". < 1253464985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it... <-- context? < 1253464995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus it's in an FAQ. < 1253464997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have all kinds of shit < 1253465002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shit. < 1253465032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh. it's just that i saw girl genius break their hosting quotas several times... admittedly once was because of their weird two-track structure suddenly merging, but they have broken it again after that < 1253465054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly they may be among the largest, they won a hugo after all < 1253465057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that comic on comicgenesis or some crap? < 1253465069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Googling says no. < 1253465074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, most people are cheapskates. < 1253465082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The person running irregularwebcomic, which is quite big, probably isn't. < 1253465086 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1253465148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose they _would_ be cheapskates on costs given they are actually earning a living from it < 1253465236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hosting bill for irregular webcomic might break $100. I don't know how much readership it has, really. < 1253465252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I estimate it to probably be around $50-75 if it's on a VPS, $30-40 otherwise. < 1253465259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More if it's a dedi, obviously.) < 1253465297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely recalls somewhere around two or three thousand < 1253465305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A month? < 1253465313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readers < 1253465317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. :P < 1253465324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's basically nothing. < 1253465329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1253465337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that was people who answered the polls < 1253465390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that cannot be right then < 1253465831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...uh. Going to code and I draw a blank. Let's install... gvim. Yeah. That'll do. For now. < 1253465837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn unfamiliar environments! < 1253465899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gvim for your gvisual needs! < 1253465940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet the modality is not yet learnt to me, so it's quite annoying < 1253465953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try emacs then? :P < 1253465981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably... < 1253465998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know me; I'll go and make a redesign of the menu system or something as soon as I start it. < 1253466006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing could be *useful*, dammit! < 1253466017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's worth a try. < 1253466036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: stop channeling zzo there :D < 1253466056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the menu system is really bad. :P < 1253466067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIEEEEEEEEEEE HOLY FUCK MY EYES < 1253466074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs uses its own antialiasing settings it seems... < 1253466081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad dog! Less hinting! Ow! Ow! Ow! < 1253466085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, X mode? < 1253466086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1253466089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The text is tingling goddammit. < 1253466111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because I don't believe in shoehorning a VT100 to emulate graphical controls. < 1253466115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is _so_ glad he doesn't have a keen sense of aesthetics < 1253466145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also because there's no reason not to, and it offers more integration with the world around it, and more font possibilities, and I can view images from inside emacs, and use multiple frames, and have scrollbars (albeit sucky ones). < 1253466146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, here emacs looks correct... 23.1.1 < 1253466166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to use less antialias than most other stuff, previously it used same < 1253466170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably your hinting/subpixel settings are similar enough to it that you don't notice, or identical. < 1253466171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just upgraded from 22.x) < 1253466184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use slight hinting + rgb, so I have quite "thick" text. < 1253466202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs' is very, very thin, very hinted, only slightly subpixeled text: it quite literally tingles at the edges. < 1253466202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I prefer "crisp" font most of the time < 1253466209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's overly-crisp. < 1253466223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm using "blurry" fonts because the crisp ones are basically horrible with freetype. < 1253466224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, here, emacs in X mode uses no antialias as far as I can tell < 1253466229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs 22 didn't. < 1253466232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs 23 does. < 1253466252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emacs 22 uses system settings as far as I can tell < 1253466257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for the fun bit: can I make this not suck using only the GUI, even getting to the config page? This will be amusing! < 1253466283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh boy, Emacs draws its own tooltip windows. < 1253466288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta love the NIH. < 1253466292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it does? < 1253466295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1253466297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they look completely normal here < 1253466305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this because the compiz window creation/fade out thing and window shadows appear. < 1253466313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's very annoying. < 1253466320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, they look different (background, border, text size, etc.) < 1253466324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253466346 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1253466355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't kill a buffer from the menus. What an interesting oversight. < 1253466370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: That's not actually useful, but it just goes to show that these menus are very hodgepodge) < 1253466394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, the customize groups are so unhelpful. < 1253466441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can. in the file menu, select close? < 1253466457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not closing the file (it's not even a file), I'm killing the buffer. < 1253466470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously in a misguided attempt to provide a WIMP-like interface... < 1253466473 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1253466486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems strange that the Emacs developers would create an interface good for the novice at the expense of people who know how it works. < 1253466496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "But I want to eject the usb stick, not delete it" <-- ejecting on mac os X < 1253466497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they see menus as a useless kiddie sort of thing. < 1253466505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that sucks. < 1253466516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think OS X is perfect, it's just good. < 1253466537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it doesn't help that Cmd-e ejects, and the key combo for moving to trash is another < 1253466541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference is that with Emacs I have a minute chance of fixing it upstream, and can definitely fix it locally. < 1253466550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yep < 1253466559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus why I complain. < 1253466565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's less pointless. < 1253466574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you may want Environment -> X < 1253466574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1253466594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, no < 1253466597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; that group appears to be completley useless. < 1253466599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completely < 1253466607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, faces? < 1253466616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. First I want to move the scrollbar to the right, though. < 1253466622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You know, where it is on every other program.) < 1253466637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not every other app. Most ones yes, but there are other like emacs < 1253466645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not GTK ones, at least. < 1253466650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not good ones, at least.) < 1253466651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is true < 1253466661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using Emacs GTK, of course. < 1253466685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point of a graphical Emacs is to fit into the environment, plus the scrollbars it uses otherwise are simply horrific. < 1253466694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't think you can do antialiasing with regular X. < 1253466706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oh, and the menus are doubly-horrific, but that doesn't matter if the menus are useless.) < 1253466727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why customize has no search. < 1253466737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it does. < 1253466744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the menus but not in the customize window. Heh. < 1253466760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Settings Matching Regexp..." vs "Options Matching Regexp..." < 1253466768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even think of a sane distinction you could make between those. < 1253466787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try #emacs ? < 1253466793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is more fun. :) < 1253466863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Google time. < 1253466945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for me the emacs 23 fonts are WAY to stretched. Horrible. < 1253466951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm asking in #emacs < 1253466960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I found nothing useful in docs either < 1253466962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are the way to Stretched. < 1253466976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: try decreasing font size. < 1253467073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is irritating. < 1253467097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well; time to bite the bullet and write some lisp. < 1253467104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First step, Google to move those fucking backup filse. < 1253467106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*files < 1253467127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, options -> set default font < 1253467130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems relevant < 1253467138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to find out what the old one uses < 1253467145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a bitmap font. < 1253467150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just put the size down a bit, it'll look fine. < 1253467171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the command to inspect X stuff now again... < 1253467173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION save options < 1253467180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just ask emacs. < 1253467187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind of window letting you click an X window and get stuff about it < 1253467187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yay, Custom added a bunch of shit to my .emacs. < 1253467193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not emacs related. X related < 1253467199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't they just do it using functions? < 1253467204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(setq transient-mark-mode t) < 1253467206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAS THAT SO HARD < 1253467209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it is < 1253467210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do < 1253467245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I recommend Dejavu sans mono 10pt < 1253467248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's decent enough < 1253467290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (setq transient-mark-mode t) <-- what does that do? < 1253467327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's default nowadays, but Custom put it in there anyway. < 1253467331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it highlights the selection. < 1253467332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does the region-highlighting. < 1253467333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xft.hinting: 1 < 1253467333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xft.hintstyle: hintslight < 1253467338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So my Xft shit is fine < 1253467341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it indeed is the default nowadays. < 1253467411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the menu thing only lets you select from a list < 1253467417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't contain dejavu here at least < 1253467421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION disables the totally useless toolbar < 1253467428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's the gtk list. < 1253467440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? < 1253467440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you're using 23/gtk? < 1253467445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I am < 1253467449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot < 1253467455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.14.7) < 1253467455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : of 2009-09-19 on tux.lan < 1253467460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from about < 1253467460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot of dialog < 1253467466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the emacs-internal list thing I've seen; but here the "set default fonts" does pop up the normal GTK+ font select-o-tron. < 1253467478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is no dialog, just a pop up menu under mouse with a set of font selections < 1253467494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't screenshot it < 1253467494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well that's wrong. < 1253467497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are bitmap fonts. < 1253467497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it goes away < 1253467498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't sound so very GTK-integrated to me. < 1253467501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your Emacs wasn't built with Xft. < 1253467506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe. < 1253467514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're hallucinating any antialiased fonts. < 1253467519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your Emacs wasn't built in a day, you know. < 1253467523 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1253467541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can do an Emacs build with Xft but without the GTK font selection list, though. < 1253467550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe. I can tell that 23 and 22 looks very different, both show the same menu thingy though < 1253467564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you can move the scrollbar from the menus. < 1253467574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1253467587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Options -> View. < 1253467588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good I want it diagonally < 1253467602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you can persist hiding the toolbar with Save Options. Sigh. < 1253467603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not there < 1253467609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's clear nobody uses this thiing. < 1253467611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1253467613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What < 1253467621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, options yes, no view under it < 1253467635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Options -> Show/Hide" here. < 1253467641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah yes there it is < 1253467663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1253467671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf no emacs in my menus < 1253467672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1253467674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds < 1253467693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it just isn't showing that one. Odd. < 1253467749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. < 1253467791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. < 1253467792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More customize cruft, less suck. < 1253467798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for the biggun: Xft. Then backup files. Then tada. < 1253467808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, found it: M-x customize-faces RET default RET < 1253467813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change that number from 118 to 101 < 1253467822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then set and save < 1253467832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 102 h ere. < 1253467835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here < 1253467847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok, well I compared emacs-22 and emacs-23 settings < 1253467861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's under Font Family? < 1253467863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and found that 122 and 101 was the different values, changing it fixed it < 1253467870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, adobe-courier < 1253467885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitmap fonts. < 1253467888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not antialiased. < 1253467890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no Xft. < 1253467893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs 23 fail. :P < 1253467898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, right, I like this look though < 1253467902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once it is set to 101 < 1253467914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a very nice look < 1253467920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courier is ugly as fuck. < 1253467925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled. < 1253467928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's what SHE said < 1253467936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Women hate Courier too. < 1253467960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled. <-- what do you mean? I can't reproduce it < 1253467997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scroll down. Watch your text cursor scroll with it. < 1253468006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perform in other graphical app. Note this not happening, and your place is kept. < 1253468008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rage at Emacs. < 1253468118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh that cursor < 1253468127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you meant the mouse cursor < 1253468217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the pointer. < 1253468248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I poke things with it! < 1253468397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1253468415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, other suggested editors: kate, gedit? < 1253468428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, pr'aps. < 1253468450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, kate is very good, and KDE4 didn't manage to mess it up too much. Just remember to enable some of the plugin thingies < 1253468477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does kate have over gedit? < 1253468563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Installing, though. < 1253468568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If KDE breaks my system, I blame you. :) < 1253468576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, side bar for open documents for example. More options. Can't find stuff like line numbers and such in gedit either < 1253468581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I looked very hard < 1253468582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, late KDE 4 versions seem like an improvement to me. What are its flaws, other than change? < 1253468602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gedit has such a sidebar. I mostly use tabs. What I value is a file tree to open and switch files of a given folder. < 1253468613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor man's project management. < 1253468618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the new search feature is worse IMO. On one hand it is search as you type now, which is nice < 1253468618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1253468634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :previously if you had your pointer in a word it would automatically enter that word when you hit ctrl-f < 1253468638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was nice < 1253468645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you need to select the word first for that to happen < 1253468653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find anywhere to change it < 1253468654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't bother me. < 1253468660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean what's wrong with KDE 4 in general. < 1253468663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not 4.0, of course. < 1253468665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 4.2 onwards. < 1253468670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh I thought you meant kate < 1253468687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I just found it horrible when I tried. Plus buggy. And that was 4.2 iirc < 1253468706 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Horrible plus buggy" describes most software. < 1253468723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's descriptive. < 1253468727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posit that you just hate change. < 1253468731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah. Well stuff like how the menus worked and what not. I couldn't even find any way to make it better < 1253468740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the control center thingy kept segfaulting on me < 1253468742 0 :jix!n=jix@188-193-95-175-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1253468747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that point I gave up < 1253468754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Kate doesn't use either my Gtk theme or my Gtk/Xresources font settings. < 1253468756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reassuring start. < 1253468762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can change that easily < 1253468763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QGtkStyle, I hope there's a package. < 1253468769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't care, it's annoying. :P < 1253468776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just go to the KDE control center, and select GTK as theme < 1253468785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since the KDE 4 default theme is ugly. < 1253468795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I close Kate and it segfaults. < 1253468797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed. I dislike the default KDE 4 theme too < 1253468798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1253468802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even do anything to it. < 1253468802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, doesn't happen here < 1253468806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shit. < 1253468821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No QGtkStyle package. < 1253468838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed, I think it is included with QT directly nowdays < 1253468855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking "Terminal" opens up a blank pane, instead of, say, "Hey! Install Konsole!" < 1253468860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polished, this thing :P < 1253468871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lemme guess, I need kcontrol or something else similarly bloated? < 1253468874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253468886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I installed konsole before. But it sounds like ubuntu package maintainers fail at dependencies. < 1253468893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's a Qt configuration thinig. < 1253468900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I guess you could do it manually in ~/.kde < 1253468902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet it's using the Gtk style, so...??? < 1253468906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look < 1253468927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas the Qt configuratormotron has no hinting thing. < 1253468930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I'll install kcontrol. < 1253468942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it is these days. < 1253468963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep says ~/.kde/share/config/kdeglobals:widgetStyle=gtk+ < 1253468968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is an ini style file iirc < 1253468972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let me find section < 1253468997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :section should be [General] < 1253469009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see if that works < 1253469025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, but it still uses gtk icons. < 1253469026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1253469026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kde < 1253469031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok. hm < 1253469043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And still acts like a KDE application, but that's a given.) < 1253469048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, let me look. < 1253469071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have it set to gtk for icons too iirc < 1253469096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./config/kdeglobals:Theme=gnome < 1253469097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253469109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Icons] < 1253469109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theme=gnome < 1253469111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be specific < 1253469113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same file < 1253469115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try that < 1253469134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and for hinting, it is again same file. section General < 1253469135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set < 1253469141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XftHintStyle=hintmedium < 1253469146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in [General] yes < 1253469147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hintslight, you mean. < 1253469151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change hint style as you want < 1253469160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything to make it use the Gtk/Gnome file chooser? < 1253469178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no idea, anything wrong with the KDE one? < 1253469188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's different :P < 1253469200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same icons are used. < 1253469209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries Theme=Human < 1253469248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: open kate, click "Close" toolbar icon while no file is open, file->quit < 1253469249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segfault < 1253469257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also you may want to update the syntax highlight files: Settings -> Kate settings : Editor \ Open and saving : last tab, last button < 1253469261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hint change did nothing < 1253469268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm odd, brb phone < 1253469482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gnop" < 1253469499 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253469920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think I'll try redcar. < 1253469972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? Redcar is moving to JRuby with SWT... < 1253469974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Way to shit up a project. < 1253470012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Horrible font rendering, slow GUI, no desktop integration... < 1253470013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheesh. < 1253470484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1253470529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1253470600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: ld.so: object 'sandbox.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored. < 1253470603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queer. < 1253470603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh another KDE 4 fuckup: in the "open files"-tab on the side of kate you used to have one click to select a file, makes sense. And this wasn't related to single/double click in file browser or file selection dialog < 1253470628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, now in KDE 4 they are connected, you can't get double click in file chooser and single click in open file list < 1253470665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for in other selection dialogs, like the KDE control center one < 1253470707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I needed ./sandbox.so < 1253470712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course < 1253470741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Code/sandbox$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls < 1253470743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you prevent calling yourself when LD_PRELOADED and wanting to call the underlying libc function? < 1253470746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1253470749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so < 1253470749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No exiting for you! < 1253470749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so < 1253470749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No exiting for you! < 1253470749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so < 1253470750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No exiting for you! < 1253470752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1253470757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I didn't expect that to happen. < 1253470762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does _start loop or something? < 1253470768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dlopen < 1253470773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your initialiser thing < 1253470783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what did you do to make that looping happen < 1253470789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void exit(int status) < 1253470789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1253470789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : printf("No exiting for you!\n"); < 1253470789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253470816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try it on some non-GNU app, some simple test app, like hello world with an exit(0); call at the end < 1253470818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION introduces an off-by-one error into strlen, cackles < 1253470845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, basically, ls could well me doing some strange look afaik < 1253470846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and < 1253470852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit must return, gcc optimises for it < 1253470854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: exits normally (omitted the exit() since I know what it'd do) < 1253470857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if I do _exit? < 1253470860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1253470863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must NOT return < 1253470864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1253470866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1253470889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_exit does nothing < 1253470897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, basically GCC assumes functions marked with the right attribute can't return, Thus being able to optimise better. This probably messes up your exit() there < 1253470900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess start doesn't call it or whatever < 1253470905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: -O0? :-P < 1253470918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no clue what happens at -O0 about it < 1253470957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the GCC docs mentioning this is in the attribute docs, and iirc it is vague and says something like "GCC may perform additional optimisations based on the knowledge it doesn't return" < 1253471030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc one effect of this, is that all code after it is considered dead. < 1253471145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that Slackware is not especially conductive to Slack. < 1253471158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you mean? < 1253471171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SubGenius that begat Slackware. < 1253471195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beget - make children; "Abraham begot Isaac"; "Men often father children but don't recognize them" < 1253471196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn < 1253471197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1253471211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1253471217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jfgi < 1253471228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I googled it... define:begat < 1253471233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........ < 1253471311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__attribute__((constructor)) static void init() { < 1253471313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.so = object? < 1253471314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think yes. < 1253471336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can say "begat" too; "beget, v. Past tense begot, arch. begat." (OED) < 1253471348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said begat originally. < 1253471366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C needs a ++ but for =. < 1253471369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes, you're so archaic. < 1253471384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (inited =, 1); < 1253471388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, define:begat gave me definition of beget. < 1253471390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1253471391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1253471397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (!(inited =, 1)) return; < 1253471398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1253471413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (!inited) {inited=1;return;};inited=1;/*dead code, can be removed*/ < 1253471423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, more likely ,= < 1253471424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, =, ? < 1253471429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ,= < 1253471436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : C needs a ++ but for =. < 1253471439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See my example. < 1253471443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1253471446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1253471450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's confusing but fun! < 1253471452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually in this case, < 1253471457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (!(inited++)) return; < 1253471458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would work < 1253471459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just evil < 1253471467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1253471469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd only work INT_MAX times or so < 1253471477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I need context to figure it out < 1253471486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1253471496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and why would the constructor be called more than once? < 1253471513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. Anagolf does it, so. < 1253471522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LD_PRELOAD works in Mysterious Ways(TM). < 1253471538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; works < 1253471559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC docs say: < 1253471560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may provide an optional integer priority to control the order in which constructor and destructor functions are run. A constructor with a smaller priority number runs before a constructor with a larger priority number; the opposite relationship holds for destructors. < 1253471627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sandbox.c:14: error: lvalue required as left operand of assignment < 1253471627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about _exit(), it is a builtin < 1253471629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not odd < 1253471634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; doesn't die. < 1253471639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How strange. < 1253471650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1253471651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err...? < 1253471655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it defines libc_strlen as a function, not a funptr. < 1253471665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; works splendidly. < 1253471676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1253471681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1253471687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats writing out the type for one libc. < 1253471707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think going the kernel module path may be less messy < 1253471727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/623695.txt?key=lmfjxbqaw8t5txpf70z05a < 1253471730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's that messy at all? < 1253471730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also strlen isn't called directly all the time. Depending on options it could call a special _chk version instead < 1253471735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, it looks positively simple to me. < 1253471752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'd like results now and stuff, so this is the route for now. < 1253471760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no, not for strlen iirc < 1253471772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for stuff like memcpu or sprintf or snprintf yes < 1253471787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why all the messiness? < 1253471788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, +1 and -1 don't change ls at all, which is odd. < 1253471792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What's messy about the pastie? < 1253471800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's simple and direct. < 1253471803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC-compiled binaries would probably use the builtin strlen too? < 1253471813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah. < 1253471818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try on ubuntu: nm -D /bin/* | grep chk | sort -n < 1253471822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll hijack... something... < 1253471823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see what I mean < 1253471825 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: why not just use strlen, though < 1253471829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: LD_PRELOAD, dude < 1253471837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note the -1 < 1253471840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fucking with preloads < 1253471845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1253471847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does ls call strlen? < 1253471849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dlsym stuff is how to access the libc strlen to use < 1253471855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The gcc one, jesus christ shut up < 1253471857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it does < 1253471861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says nm < 1253471868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in this code path, evidently < 1253471868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nm says it calls libc one though < 1253471872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok < 1253471886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh! < 1253471892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make... something... reverse the string. < 1253471894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The earlier part makes you wonder what sort of bytes the libc_strlen symbol will end up pointing at after a "typeof(strlen) libc_strlen;" -- I guess it must be an uninitialized function. < 1253471905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; now. < 1253471906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ltrace /bin/ls 2>&1 | grep strlen < 1253471908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's just a regular ol' funptr. < 1253471911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shows it does strlen < 1253471914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, now, but earlier. < 1253471917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each entry here < 1253471925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, it'd error out if you didn't define it later, obviously. < 1253471927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1253471933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so it should affect stuff < 1253471953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1253471957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"return 1;" makes it break. < 1253471967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's just allocating memory, and -1 doesn't run into a boundary. < 1253471973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it escapes just in time. < 1253471976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think it just uses it for figuring out width of columns < 1253471986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet, < 1253471986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size_t strlen(const char *s) < 1253471987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1253471987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return libc_strlen(s) * 2; < 1253471987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253471988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segfaults too. < 1253471994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1253472012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constant factors seem to work >_x < 1253472014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts a printf in dar < 1253472031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe because sometimes strlen is inlined, and sometimes not, and that messes up stuff when they disagree < 1253472047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there isn't a handy strrev() is there < 1253472055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strfry() will do! < 1253472063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size_t strlen(const char *s) < 1253472063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1253472063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : strfry(s); < 1253472063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return libc_strlen(s); < 1253472063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253472064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles < 1253472076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that should give the same length < 1253472081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try size_t n = libc_strlen(s); return n ? n - 1 : n; < 1253472082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it modifies the pointer. < 1253472090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1253472091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So every time you strlen(), bam! Anagrammed underneath you. < 1253472096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I flagrantly violate my const promise. < 1253472111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segfault. How *boring*. < 1253472114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was just going to point out that < 1253472117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, constant strings, clearly. < 1253472121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to do, what to do. < 1253472136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: sure < 1253472140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but -1 works < 1253472141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and +1 < 1253472146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and +3 < 1253472155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want a quick-and-dirty fix, you could mprotect the read-onlyness away. :p < 1253472168 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"On Linux it is always permissible to call mprotect() on any address in a process's address space." < 1253472168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In a constant string? < 1253472169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet. < 1253472170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that depends. If it is on an mmaped page where you don < 1253472179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* have write access to the underlying file < 1253472185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think things may not wrok < 1253472187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :work* < 1253472191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not completely sure though < 1253472210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERRORS < 1253472210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : EACCES The memory cannot be given the specified access. This can happen, for example, if you mmap(2) a file to which you have read-only access, < 1253472210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : then ask mprotect() to mark it PROT_WRITE. < 1253472213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253472220 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't sound very likely to happen, though. < 1253472223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: invalid argument `oatu' for `--color' < 1253472223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1253472241 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're truly evil ehird < 1253472257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This evil: < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size_t strlen(const char *s) < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : size_t length = libc_strlen(s); < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mprotect(s, length, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE); < 1253472260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : strfry(s); < 1253472262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return length; < 1253472264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253472297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls --color=toua < 1253472297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault < 1253472300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um, don't you need to round the page size? < 1253472302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after several tries) < 1253472302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1253472311 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253472315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid things strlen()ing internal structures :P < 1253472330 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, you don't; but it will change on page-sized granularity. < 1253472333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm not surprised that things break when you do that sort of thing < 1253472342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1253472366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try doing something useful and allowed instead? < 1253472367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so cat < 1253472367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym < 1253472367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, actually it does say that 'addr' should be page-aligned; it will still affect all pages that contain bytes in the [addr, addr+len-1] range. < 1253472368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's a new one. < 1253472394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and do check http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html for list of functions that are sometimes built in optimised < 1253472424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym < 1253472426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is up with that. < 1253472440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, forgot to link to ld? < 1253472442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1253472442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dl < 1253472444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1253472449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder why ls does, if it works there. < 1253472459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um? < 1253472477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still works with ls. < 1253472482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without -ldl < 1253472484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253472490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe ls uses it anyway < 1253472491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1253472500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1253472502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but why? < 1253472503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ldd agrees < 1253472508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ltrace it < 1253472511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1253472524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not used in normal code path < 1253472542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my best guess is some other library pulls it in, maybe the libselinux one on ubuntu < 1253472545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1253472612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually I can't find what it uses from libdl. Hm < 1253472646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed, libselinux pulls it in < 1253472649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there, explained < 1253472706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size_t strftime(char *s, size_t max, const char *format, const struct tm *tm) < 1253472706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1253472706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : strcpy(s, "Bork bork bork!"); < 1253472706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return max; < 1253472706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1253472729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, issue, you don't check if s is long enough < 1253472735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably is :-P < 1253472754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why are you trying to screw with library functions, ehird? < 1253472757 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm. < 1253472757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so sh < 1253472758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ date < 1253472758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ork bork bork![GARBAGE] < 1253472763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, strncpy(s, "whatever", max); < 1253472766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ork bork bork![MORE GARBAGE] < 1253472769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 18:52:24 BST 2009 < 1253472771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1253472784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strcpy writes no \0, does it? :P < 1253472793 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently not < 1253472800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: My all-encompassing full-system sandboxing solution to become Linux distro. < 1253472800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it does. < 1253472805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should. < 1253472805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says man page < 1253472814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm. < 1253472816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made me laugh btw. < 1253472819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, strncpy might not if buffer isn't large enough < 1253472836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yeah < 1253472838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1253472839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I return max; < 1253472843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it prints up to max < 1253472844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1253472870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I fail to see how this is actually getting you anywhere yet < 1253472875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. < 1253472878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, now you figured out how < 1253472883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1253472887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, why not get started on the actual hard stuff < 1253472888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ date < 1253472888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ork bork bork! ork bork bork! 20 18:54:39 BST 2009 < 1253472890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How confusing. < 1253472893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because this is amusing? < 1253472900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to think about the logistics before coding that stuff. < 1253472901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, where does the last part come from? < 1253472907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what happened to the first b < 1253472910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. Maybe it formats its own date. < 1253472911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no idea. < 1253472947 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1253473015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it does all the numeric formats by itself, and uses strcpy for the strings; it should say something like "Sun Sep 20 .." there. < 1253473028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, strftime, not strcpy. < 1253473033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it uses strcpy now! < 1253473041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doing it that way is pretty wtfy though < 1253473053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, why the chop off thing? < 1253473068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe it adds some guard thing first in the format and then removes it < 1253473069 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing they want date to support all those GNUisms even on systems where the library strftime doesn't. < 1253473070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check the source < 1253473092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't justify not just using the system one on systems where it *does* exist < 1253473098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, overriding strftime was boring. < 1253473121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strftime? Stir-fry time? < 1253473139 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String-format time. < 1253473141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway if you want to run as normal user and still prevent accessing random files as that user unless the user accepted it, then you need to do something about system calls. < 1253473142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess. < 1253473149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively do like that thing EgoBot uses < 1253473163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with empty chroot and dynamically created UID < 1253473190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1253473193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running under another user. < 1253473202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe chroot. < 1253473205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then you need a suid wrapper to let you change your UID < 1253473212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1253473213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you stop teaching me how to program? Kthx. < 1253473233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not doing that, just teaching you linuxism that you seem to be wondering about earlier today < 1253473246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was answered tho < 1253473252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gruh, compiz frozen again < 1253473287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fixthis.com < 1253473293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try metacity. System -> Preferences -> Apperence, last tab < 1253473304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :select the no effects option < 1253473309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :switches to metacity < 1253473317 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I thought you used some random tiling window manager < 1253473319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, firstly, I had this problem with Metacity too. < 1253473325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh ok < 1253473328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1253473331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secondly, I can't even click windows.. < 1253473335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\.{2}/./ < 1253473337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can't do that. < 1253473343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I did, but then that installation was all bleh. < 1253473351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was for like a day, mind you. < 1253473360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you reproduce that issue < 1253473364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-F2 is your friend < 1253473367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, bleh? < 1253473379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, Ctrl-Alt-F2 under X iirc < 1253473396 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, Alt-F2 < 1253473399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opening appearance preferences unbroked it. Hi ho! < 1253473414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD < 1253473416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's broke again XD < 1253473419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-F2 again < 1253473423 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1253473430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so open that and change to damn metacity < 1253473431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, except I can't type in alt-f2 this time < 1253473438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1253473438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I can! < 1253473441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I like compiz kthx < 1253473456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, now I can't click control center icons. < 1253473525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just run compiz --replace < 1253473526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiz deactivated! Failure ever-present! < 1253473546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Failure ever-present" sounds like an awesome error message < 1253473552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253473581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of like "the impossible happened" but in the other direction < 1253473642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253473643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X? < 1253473658 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253473660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X? < 1253473683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253473689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253473708 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253473713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wb < 1253473724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did you see what I said last time? < 1253473729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X? < 1253473752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from ehird: 7.54 second(s) < 1253473753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1253473774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253473783 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-97.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253473842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, coppro: probability of ehird having broken something important? < 1253473857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :41% < 1253473869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94.1% < 1253473884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess would be closer to Deewiant's < 1253473905 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be he's just running something which doesn't work well < 1253473911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Java applets do here :/ < 1253473917 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253473923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rebooted, said "meh". < 1253473932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1253473938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah. < 1253473940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they work fine for a while, then memory usage shoots up and I need to kill firefox < 1253473941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and did you see what I said last time? < 1253473941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a weird-ass glitch. < 1253473941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X? < 1253473951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Stop answering that question. If Ianswer it it'll involve me being annoyed. < 1253473954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1253473955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asking < 1253473956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I need to killall java < 1253473956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I answer < 1253473958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead < 1253473965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree wrt killing all Java. < 1253473969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when working with my uni's web thingy < 1253473972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a very good idea. < 1253473986 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: eh. Firefox dies anyway if I kill Java < 1253473994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, didn't happen here < 1253474075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, also that web thingy likes to pop up dialogs saying stuff like: "are you sure you want to run this java thingy, unable to check signature due to missing root ". < 1253474090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Linux todo to be happy: Nice IRC client integrating with Gnome and Ubuntu's whole messaging thing. < 1253474094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I answer no, and it still works < 1253474099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux todo to be really happy: Sandboxing. Package manager. Distro. < 1253474099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as I kill java afterwards < 1253474112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I agree wrt killing all Java. ;; someone appreciate this < 1253474130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, saw it, didn't see anything to comment about it < 1253474136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a joke. < 1253474180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, On slashdot it would possibly have been moded "insightful" < 1253474185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever the term is < 1253474190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a JOKE. < 1253474202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was mine. < 1253474314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from gcc docs. "[...] Note, This feature is currently sorried out for Windows targets trying to " < 1253474318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep it ends there < 1253474321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't make any sense < 1253474329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is "sorried"? < 1253474350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Function-Attributes.html (see "ms_abi/sysv_abi" section) < 1253474372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sortedD? < 1253474374 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-D < 1253474390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, possibly, but what are they trying to < 1253474438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just trying in general. < 1253474453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err you mean: Just trying to in general < 1253474460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're trying to. < 1253474483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you must note that the feature is sorried out on Windows. < 1253474485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes duh of course, why didn't I think of that, it's obvious! < 1253474485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least for now. < 1253474585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Quarterly, I azure, an alien head affronts; II sable, a saltire gules of bacon; III sable, an envelope orangegules; IV azure, a look_of_disapproval at gaze; supported by narwhals combatant. Motto: "reddit", between an upvote gules and downvote azure in pale." < 1253474588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"orangegules" < 1253474602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: ^ should probably be in #reddit but that channel sucks and everyone there will have seen it.) < 1253474602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, where is that from < 1253474605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reddit. < 1253474615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a comment? < 1253474621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a unicorn. < 1253474626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253474649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it could be a comment or the original thread starting or a user profile for all I knew < 1253474666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thread starters are just comments, essentially. Also, reddit is a link site, dammit. < 1253474733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, but I didn't know what to call the thing that is the link itself < 1253474744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus "thread starting" < 1253474769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OP. < 1253474780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OPeration? < 1253474857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original Post. < 1253474865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Poster. < 1253474877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253474891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster < 1253474893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1253474902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one fits the acronym too after all < 1253474926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes right I know what you meant, but...) < 1253474953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmail needs a "go to first unread message" shortcut < 1253474976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster ;; someone appreciate this < 1253474979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1253475000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it sucks < 1253475006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so did your joke < 1253475026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1253475755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the apt-cache command to list files in a pkg? < 1253475820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tell me if you find out < 1253475825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wondered too < 1253475852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the files of an installed package, that's "dpkg-query -L foo"; I'm not sure if the apt cache contains the file lists of random packages. < 1253475876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx < 1253475892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1253475899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's the command to find which package has a file :D < 1253475912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dpkg-query -S file" as long as file is installed. < 1253475930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and what's the file >< < 1253475932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*>_< < 1253475943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The path name you're looking for. < 1253475949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I just don't know what it is :D < 1253475971 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can't really help you there, I have no clue what you're looking for. < 1253475975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1253476001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, I'm trying to find the binary of the application browser that comes up when clicking More Applications in SUSE's "SLAB" Gnome menu. < 1253476004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it... /usr/share/libthai/thbrk.tri? < 1253476008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also available for other distros.) < 1253476008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, apt-file can find in non-installed apps iirc < 1253476012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just a guess.) < 1253476012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Alas, no. < 1253476019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why that < 1253476026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Who can say? < 1253476035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not I, certainly. < 1253476039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also suse? apt? < 1253476047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Also available for other distros.) < 1253476054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster pro reader 09. < 1253476056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1253476078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, it is pro reader 1x, they couldn't get the paper work done in time < 1253476216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gnome-main-menu package has something called "application-browser", but it might be different. < 1253476233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ain't no binary here. < 1253476260 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's the same thing, it puts the binary into /usr/lib/gnome-main-menu/application-browser possibly. < 1253476274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1253476274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sit < 1253476275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know, don't have installed that. < 1253476284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't have installed that! < 1253476552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish has a reasonably flexible word order; "en ole asentanut sitä" would I guess be the standard form, but "en ole sitä asentanut" and "sitä en ole asentanut" and "asentanut en sitä ole" all don't sound *so* out-of-place, and have unambiguously the same meaning, albeit with a bit different emphasis. < 1253476555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to think of a less crappy way to authorise files than hooking into the gtk and qt file choosers to allow any file selected through them < 1253476558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that totally breaks cli apps < 1253476615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, use an ncurses GUI. But that also break cli apps < 1253476631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hm. most other things I can think of break cli apps < 1253476656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about using a server process that could ask the user in whatever way the user preferred? < 1253476670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be sort of GUI/CLI/whatever server < 1253476698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact is that awesome-unzipper foo.zip -> ALLOW FILE HURR? ALLOW FILE DURR? ALLOW FILE I AM UBUNTU'S VISTA UAC AND MAY I SUCK YOUR COCK? is basically unacceptable < 1253476709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not least for the unpleasant homoerotic undertones. well. overtones. < 1253476715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i need to be clever about this < 1253476732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking maybe a staging area for a home directory, then it all gets put in one directory if it isn't already < 1253476738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to name it is the question, and besides that might still suck < 1253476740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1253476745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heuristics will only take you so far < 1253476753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if we put it in a staging area and disallow file conflicts, then that would stop it shitting over the rest of home < 1253476761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if we don't directory it up < 1253476761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1253476775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that will work for unzipper, but what about editor? < 1253476778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not heuristics so much as predefined things for default applications < 1253476791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, editors are passed that file by CLI or file chooser, so they get it < 1253476801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., if a program can access a file, and saves to it, they can overwrite it < 1253476805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with backup, prolly) < 1253476864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about opening inside an app like emacs that uses the mode line + tab complete? < 1253476873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't work for file chooser < 1253476879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we patch emacs. < 1253476889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so apps won't run out of box? < 1253476891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It beats forcing a total rewrite of every application, i.e. a proper system for this. < 1253476898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure they will, they'll just nag you every time you try and use files. < 1253476924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this is non-ideal; so naturally I'm trying to think of better ways to make this Work. < 1253476959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM or HP or someone had a sandboxing system like this for Windows. It was easier since Windows has pretty much one file picker. < 1253476974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall the name. I think Sgeo mentioned it first. < 1253477004 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confused as to ehird's goal < 1253477059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run untrusted applications and not worry! It's like a MAGICAL CONDOM for your LINUX... um... genitals? Bad analogy. It's like a MAGICAL SANDBOXING CAPABILITY-BASED SECURITY SYSTEM for your LINUX OPERATING SYSTEM. < 1253477071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be guarded against flawed applications! ...To a degree! < 1253477073 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1253477089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fits in nicely with the per-user, multi-version, separated-namespace, purely-functional package manager! < 1253477101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, untrusted applications = all applications. < 1253477105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every user process runs under this thing. < 1253477126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, uh, overhead is a bit bad. < 1253477133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this sounds familiar < 1253477138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1253477169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember some app to do basically that for GUI apps. Worked with firefox iirc < 1253477171 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253477172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't remember name < 1253477220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think SELinux does a sort of similar thing with the capabilities, and solves the application problem by writing gigantic lists of rules for every app. < 1253477220 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptrace? < 1253477230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But mine is like 10x less sucky, so. < 1253477236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that is just a API for it < 1253477240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's AppArmor too < 1253477242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and it wasn't selinux I meant < 1253477245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor apparmor < 1253477255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some research project < 1253477257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AppArmor requires patching to apps, doesn't it? < 1253477259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably *.edu < 1253477262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I don't just want this to be for apps. < 1253477266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed, awk, ls, cat, all run under it. < 1253477271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, it hooks into same place as selinux < 1253477302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, all the widely used ones are kernel based. I think LD_PRELOAD is just the wrong way to go < 1253477311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME < 1253477314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not sure about the ask user gui thing < 1253477317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM NOT USING LD_PRELOAD AS A LONG TERM - FUCKING - SOLUTION < 1253477320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE < 1253477323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE MULTIPLE TIMES < 1253477330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't see what you gain then... < 1253477331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM DOING IT FOR EASY DEVELOPMENT AND EXPLORATION IN THE INITIAL STAGES ON THIS UBUNTU BOX < 1253477340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERGO, SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT LD_PRELOAD! < 1253477346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, you would have to rewrite it in a completely different way in the kernel < 1253477351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ehird, your solution being better requires it to exist < 1253477371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the seconds I spend replying to AnMaster being stupid are seconds I don't spend making it exist in the future. < 1253477397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fact is that no system does anything near what my aim is, and if it does it almost certainly can't be applied in the way I'd like to < 1253477400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, now, I'm not. I'm just saying that doing it in kernel and doing it in userspace means completely different implementations < 1253477426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no shit? < 1253477461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so I'm suggesting that doing it with LD_PRELOAD will be wasted effort since you won't be able to reuse much of it in kernel later. < 1253477500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not writing the full system with LD_PRELOAD. Now if you would kindly do what I asked and shut. the. fuck. up. about. LD_PRELOAD. that would be appreciated, as it's constituted about half your lines about this project for hours. < 1253477533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't true, I helped you with it above... < 1253477594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because half = all. < 1253477595 0 :MigoMipo!i=54d900fd@gateway/web/freenode/x-drzihnxzsysxxivs JOIN :#esoteric < 1253477614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, much more than half was help < 1253477629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day, AnMaster will understand hyperbole.* < 1253477630 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION votes ehird stfu < 1253477631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lie < 1253477794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exaggeration you mean < 1253477798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253477804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go look up "hyperbole". < 1253477818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1253477823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that joke was so wasted on you < 1253477852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, agreed* < 1253477863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in general, not just atm < 1253477889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :** Only in the context of ehird shutting up. < 1253477920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, there's a command for making me stfu in general. < 1253477933 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you sometimes have useful things to say < 1253477940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, jokes lost on ehird are awesome < 1253477956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well in general the jokes ehird doesn't understand are the best < 1253477977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun with your hur hur ehird is so stupid circlejerk, guys < 1253477978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1253477999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1253478005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my, why isn't ais523 here now. That would have been a lot more fun < 1253478297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, somehow I guess ehird sees himself as some sort of "best in humour", and thus gets very irritated when he don't get a joke. Especially when I said it (who he considers almost entirely lacking humour). < 1253478320 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the best was when I was making jokes about his immaturity < 1253478333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro oh? < 1253478351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he couldn't understand why my jokes about him being young were funny, because he's too young < 1253478361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1253478365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how long ago was that? < 1253478389 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION greps the logs < 1253478443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.09 <-- starts around "double entendre" < 1253478470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, has google removed the "view as html" option? < 1253478485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh that recently? Thought it would be more like 2-3 years ago < 1253478515 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, e's stilll pretty young < 1253478547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is searching for the actual double entendre < 1253478583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, was it you who said the double entendre? < 1253478611 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, bsmntbombdood_ did, about 10 lines up < 1253478624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah that explains it, I was looking at your lines only < 1253478682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and yes that is pretty clear. In fact it seems more like a "single entendre" (I can only see the dirty meaning to tell the truth) < 1253478737 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.73.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1253478752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must quit my bad habit of logreading, but please do note, later down: < 1253478753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:49:17 oh snap < 1253478753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:49:21 i didn't even notice that < 1253478770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you're claiming something to do with age on the part of me, you must also claim it on the person who originally said the damn thing. < 1253478784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, yes of course I got it as soon as I bothered to look at it again. < 1253478791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um no? It is quite different if the speaker him/herself doesn't notice it < 1253478798 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with AnMaster < 1253478819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: amusing then that if you miss a double entrende and I point it out you say I have a dirty mind, a bit of a double-standard there < 1253478826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:03 * coppro will be back in 2 or 3 years < 1253478826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:27 coppro: umm... bye? < 1253478826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:34 that's a rather anticlimatic exit < 1253478826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:50 I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently. < 1253478827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1253478835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever, continue your "lol he's so young and naive and did I mention candyfloss" antics < 1253478862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I never claimed that *I* didn't have a dirty mind :P < 1253478864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it must be interesting having nothing better to do and responding to this knowledge with a discussion about how one insignificant person you only know over IRC is young/stupid/whatever < 1253478867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1253478868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1253478907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hm how old are you btw? 25 or so is my guess < 1253479120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck, it's rainly heavily < 1253479126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at forcast for tomorrow < 1253479148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm better than what I hoped for, still bad < 1253481137 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't raining here atm < 1253481155 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I believe I read it'll rain here tomorrow and tuesday < 1253481213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, different cities will have different weather very often :P < 1253481222 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1253481260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, btw, funny label on box (unable to translate to English due to not knowing what the hell it is called in English): < 1253481289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desinficerande våtservetter \n Med desinfektionsmedel < 1253481299 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh really? < 1253481305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, exactly < 1253481979 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disinfecting wet serviette \n with disinfectant < 1253481983 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something? < 1253481998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something like that < 1253482003 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1253482005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that is what they are called in English < 1253482015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("wet serviette" that is) < 1253482018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't, that's just the literal translation :-P < 1253482024 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Isn't it?) < 1253482062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I can't be bothered to look it up. < 1253482086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus everyone active atm seems to be able to understand Swedish more or less < 1253482093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including you < 1253482138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253482331 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1253482954 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-99-208.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253483429 0 :Asztal^_^!n=asztal@host86-172-5-13.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1253483844 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253483900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1253484197 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1253485577 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1253486751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latest news from proggit: someone wrote a command-line application for ordering pizza < 1253486980 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh... n: 20000000 avg: 8103009.4666202 max spike: 8.8959992639417e+14 ... That seems just plain too ill-behaved to converge (the expectation of distribution is zero)... :-) < 1253487033 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20M samples and the estimate of expectation isn't even near correct... < 1253487034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: context? < 1253487084 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to estimate moments of badly-behaved distributions... < 1253487113 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(starting from trying to estimate what's the expectation value is). < 1253487218 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that "max spike" is biggest absolute value seen. As can be seen, peak to average ratio is huge (~10^8). < 1253487274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's badly behaved, all right < 1253487282 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it Turing-complete? < 1253487295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's probably some way to do computation with a distribution) < 1253487297 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distribution: p(x) = k / (abs(x)+1)^1.5 (k is chosen to scale it properly for distribution). < 1253487303 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1253487359 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd moments are zero. Even moments (except the zeroth) are infinite. < 1253487461 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1253487621 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... Some researchers wired a dead salmon into fMRI machine... :-) < 1253487710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1253487724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show the ease of false positives < 1253487729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cerise: hi, I don't recognise you; what brings you here? < 1253487888 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cerise: You are developing some über-batshit-crazy to the nth power programming language and need some advice? :-> < 1253487907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is currently about 6 < 1253488056 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.41... :-> < 1253488086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly I've been slacking < 1253488216 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! :x < 1253488305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry #esoteric, I've been slacking for weeks on the esolang side of things < 1253488587 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1253488688 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1253488690 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, Cerise < 1253488785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I AM NOT USING LD_PRELOAD AS A LONG TERM - FUCKING - SOLUTION <-- that's what they all say < 1253488797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hi Cerise < 1253488842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: They say that, yes, but then everyone just ends up keeping the LD_PRELOAD in place when having sex anyway. < 1253488855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1253488865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean >_< < 1253488879 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cerise: And esoteric language doesn't have to be über-batshit-insane to 6.41th power... Just being insane (batshit-insane is even better) is enough. :-> < 1253488912 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1253488921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elegance also counts, says i < 1253488926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, definitely < 1253488935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't be truly elegant without being slightly insane, though < 1253488941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it fits this channel pretty well < 1253489012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand if your language heaps feature upon feature rather than being elegant, _then_ it needs to be über-batshit-insane or else it ends up with negative points < 1253489030 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, Rube-Goldberg-style Turing Completeness also would be funky. < 1253489093 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, lots of features that don't fit well together, and manage as combination just barely reach TC. < 1253489126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but with a lot of features it is hard to ensure all of them are really needed for TC < 1253489142 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX- < 1253489169 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1253489454 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's why its so difficult to design them. < 1253489863 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1253490274 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1253490793 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"