00:26:10 I sort of wish I couldn't tell what it says. 00:30:01 I guess I should give this person the ball. 00:30:17 But right now, I'm trying to apply brain bleach to my eyes 00:40:06 -!- iano has joined. 00:52:12 -!- iano has quit. 02:26:25 -!- jix has joined. 02:39:17 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:58:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:58:59 There is something wrong with my internet, I don't know who to ask (technical support says nothing is wrong on their end). 02:59:13 Inbound connections to port 70 don't work (it worked yesterday) 02:59:43 firewall update? 02:59:57 Any software changes? Firewall changes? Router changes? Do inbound connections to other ports work? 03:00:40 O no, I checked everything. The router settings are correct, the service works (connecting to localhost works), inbound connections on port 80 still work, outbound connections on port 70 work, and when using a proxy I get the same results. 03:01:44 I checked the DNS, tried stopping and restarting the service, rebooting the router, everything else too. 03:02:28 And it worked yesterday. 03:02:37 Where can I ask for help? 03:02:53 Unfortunately I don't know, so I tried this channel for nearly no reason 03:06:07 Pandora stores passwords in plain-text! 03:06:47 There is no software change or firewall change or router change. 03:07:18 Port 25 doesn't work either 03:07:56 Technical support says they didn't change anything, but I'm not sure they know about it correctly. 03:07:57 Are you on a university/college network? 03:08:02 No, I'm at home. 03:08:29 Port 25 isn't always open anyways (I just started the SMTP server to test it, and it failed) 03:08:36 s/plain-text// 03:08:59 But port 70 is definitely work, by localhost, but not by remote. Port 80 works local and remote. 03:10:13 And it worked fine yesterday. 03:14:48 -!- zzo38 has quit. 03:32:41 someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine 03:57:13 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex. 04:58:16 haha 04:58:23 ""Ubuntu", an african word meaning, "Gentoo is too hard for me"" 04:59:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:21:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:23:21 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 05:42:15 -!- coppro has joined. 05:46:51 -!- Pthing has joined. 06:34:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:43:00 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:47:14 comex: that joke's normally done with Debian rather than Gentoo 06:50:48 Yes, "African word for 'can't install Debian'" is the form I'm more familiar with. 06:52:23 See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.) 06:53:13 What I did not know is that "ubuntu" apparently also means: "To ejaculate on a womans face." 07:10:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 07:38:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:40:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:40:30 with the structure of bantu languages in mind, ubuntu and gentu could easily be forms of the same word... not so with debian. 07:40:56 (bantu and ubuntu are, for one thing) 07:41:21 fizzie: urbandictionary is full of duff meanings 07:52:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:57:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit. 08:35:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:43:16 -!- FireFly has quit. 09:20:51 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:25:59 http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt 09:26:06 unfortunately, I don't think it's actually written in brainfuck 09:26:20 I'm still trying to figure out if the name's a reference or not, though 09:54:55 -!- SimonRC has joined. 10:21:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:22:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:32:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 10:51:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:57:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 12:30:24 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:03:38 ugh, it seems that Virgin Media have some sort of custom search page that comes up for pages like http://nosuchdomain.invalid 13:03:51 luckily it has an opt-out which AFAICT a) actually works, and b) doesn't use cookies 13:12:44 Isn't the slang term for that to "do a Verisign"? 13:15:23 Incidentally, I wonder how many $'s are implied by all the legal text at http://www.icann.org/en/general/litigation-verisign.htm 13:15:47 (For the lawyers that generated the text, I mean.) 13:19:25 * ais523 wonders if .invalid has an entry for it in the root DNS servers 13:19:39 it is a real TLD, after all; but there are (deliberately) no sites on it 13:24:24 At least k.root-servers.net just says NXDOMAIN. 13:24:49 why did you choose k? 13:25:22 It is the Kewlest root-server of them all. 13:27:54 It has this fancy anycast distributed thing: http://k.root-servers.org/ 14:17:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:20:11 ais523: good for you 14:20:22 my ISP has an opt-out, it doesn't use cookies, the real deal 14:20:25 unfortunately, it doesn't work 14:20:35 ofc I just opted-out everyone else on the same connection 14:20:38 but that's probably a good thing 14:21:10 clicking the button didn't do anything 14:21:13 so I switched to opendns 14:21:33 the NXDOMAIN-replacement pages seem to have long caches 14:21:39 but new nonexistent pages work fine 14:27:24 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:27:27 -!- MizardX- has joined. 14:27:58 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 14:35:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:36:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 15:05:41 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:12:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:18:15 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 15:22:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:27:26 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 15:45:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:52:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:58:17 -!- adam_d has joined. 16:00:59 AnMaster: iwc :) 16:25:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:28:58 oerjan, hi, just home. 16:29:01 read it hours ago 16:29:02 :P 16:35:50 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 16:47:16 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:06:10 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:10:24 We have ELF and DWARF; where's ORC? 17:15:05 There's always ORK 17:15:32 is DWARF an executable format? 17:17:55 No, it's a debug info format 17:18:58 Deewiant, I assume DWARF was a joke on ELF? 17:19:23 Yes, I assume so as well 17:20:08 Wiki says it was, apparently 17:20:12 well ORC should be something suitably evil. perhaps some kind of report format for pointy-haired bosses? 17:20:28 It could be the Windows executable format 17:20:47 Deewiant, isn't that PE? 17:20:54 ... yes, it is 17:21:13 why the three dots? 17:21:36 I assumed you were refuting my statement 17:22:00 AnMaster: i think there's a *whoosh* hidden inside the first dot there 17:22:08 ah 17:22:20 stop using such a lossy compression scheme 17:23:04 It's not among my habits to tell people "you missed/misunderstood my joke" 17:23:18 I'd rather just assume they're idiots and leave it at that 17:27:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:27:51 what does me scoring top marks at a math exam signify I wonder... 17:29:17 oh ehird isn't here. guess that is why he hasn't made any foul remark yet 17:34:37 -!- adam_d_ has changed nick to adam_d. 17:43:28 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:57:01 I got an idea for esolang. The actual runtime would execute code in tree form. Before running, the source would be run through preprocessor which built the tree for running, also containing operations to modify what's already built (move substrees, copy subtrees, delete subtrees). So that for any program X and tree Y, there exists Z such that X is prefix of Z and processes to Y. 17:59:50 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:00:28 * Asztal sheds a tear in memory of Malcom, the 1TB hard drive, who died before his time :'( 18:01:27 are there any algorithms that have an exponential memory upper bound but a linear upper time bound? 18:01:41 AnMaster: No. 18:01:53 Ilari, ah, as I suspected 18:04:05 you cannot use more memory than time in a sequential algorithm 18:04:47 In the other way around, you can't use more than exponentially more time than you use memory. 18:05:12 So PSPACE is subset of EXPTIME. 18:06:46 That is, the preprocessor could patch anything already built into anything. 18:10:12 Ilari, what preprocessor? 18:10:18 the C one? 18:10:29 For an esolang... 18:10:49 yes? 18:12:01 Its just at idea stage... One has to define what operations are supported and what their semantics are. 18:13:48 For the preproc, insert node, delete subtree, copy subtree, move subtree could be good set of operations... 18:14:05 Oh, and alter node. 18:14:48 alter ego 18:17:18 Have various versions of source in one file, with next patching the previous, and the code quickly becomes too convoluted to follow... 18:17:24 Ilari, what about paste subtree 18:17:29 to make it some evil editing script like 18:18:04 a copy-and-paste preprocessor XD 18:18:23 Err, cut-n-paste => move, copy-n-paste => copy. 18:19:23 Ilari, yes hm but it should only have one copy buffer to hold the thing 18:19:51 and it should be as an edit script or so 18:20:00 possibly recordable XD 18:20:52 The edit preprocessor being complicated isn't the idea. The idea is to make the actual program (parse tree) effectively unfollowable by patching it bit-by-bit. 18:21:04 hm ok 18:21:35 Ilari, it would be another interesting preprocessor that was basically copy-and-paste operation (what then is the point of a preprocessor one could ask!) 18:21:56 Ilari, would you have macros? 18:22:57 Probably no... Would make things too logical. 18:23:41 Ilari, depends on the macros... I mean you can make quite a mess with both C macros and LISP macros 18:25:40 Stuff like: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "World"; ADD 1.2 PRINT "!"; ADD 1.1 PRINT " "; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello"; ALTER 1.2 PRINT ", "; 18:27:13 Ilari, hm, what is 1.1 and so on 18:27:20 Node pointer. 18:28:29 mhm 18:28:56 Ilari, obfuscation seems rather optional here, I mean, nothing prevents you from writing non-obfuscated programs? 18:29:27 ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello world"; 18:29:29 I assume 18:29:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:30:11 Ilari, one thing that could make it more confusing would be "RENAME SEQUENCE" 18:30:13 or so 18:30:17 to name 1 something else 18:30:39 AnMaster: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; ... It also tends to become funky when building larger trees... 18:30:49 well ok that is true 18:31:19 Ilari, what is the add sequence thing btw? 18:31:27 is it case sensitive? 18:31:52 AnMaster: SEQUENCE is just "run nodes below here in order" operator. 18:32:06 ah 18:32:39 Ilari, this some similar to my SQL+HTML combination kind of 18:32:40 Actually, it could be 'ADD 1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; if there was impiled SEQUENCE at root level. 18:33:01 I mean, declaring a tree through a complex upper caseish language 18:33:53 which was like INSERT THE ELEMENT p INTO THE ELEMENT body WHICH IS A CHILD OF html 18:34:05 and then references to first and second and so on 18:34:25 (it was made to be very verbose English) 18:34:52 I don't remember exact syntax I had, and the irc logs from then are on archive cd 18:34:53 so 18:35:02 sometime in this channel, 2008 or 2009 18:35:41 And the references inside operations should maybe resolved when encountering them. Would do really funky things to code structure if one of the operations was GOTO... 18:36:06 heh 18:36:40 You can't jump forward unless you make some really messy code. 18:37:29 And of course there would be equivalent to COBOL ALTER keyword: ALTER x.y.z GOTO a.b.c;... :-) 18:38:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("NVG server going down in a moment"). 18:38:37 ALTER from COBOL is quite probably the nastiest operation (from mainintance p.o.v.) ever seen in any mainstream language. 18:39:30 Ilari, I don't know what this ALTER does 18:40:09 Ilari, what about the actual language though, the bit that will then run 18:40:20 it should be quite complex too IMO 18:40:44 otherwise you could just run preprocessor and dump the result to understand how the program worked 18:41:01 Change target of GOTO. And it had really nice interactions with segmentation. ALTER + segmentation => run away screaming... 18:41:02 oh and IMO goto is hell even from a coding point of view 18:41:20 Ilari, segmentation as in segmented memory on x86? 18:41:30 More like manual swapping. 18:41:35 uhu 18:42:57 Obsoleted by virtual memory. Well, unless one wants to make stuff unmaintainable by mixing segmentation with ALTER. 18:44:04 Ilari, so why would segmentation and ALTER interact badly? 18:44:50 IIRC, if segment containg ALTERed GOTOs was swapped out, the modifications to jumps were lost, so when reloading it, the jumps reset to their default destinations. 18:45:02 ouch 18:45:23 Ilari, that sounds like "reset" rather than "swap out whatever is in memory" 18:46:20 Swap out really freed the memory occupied by segment. 18:47:08 So there would be space to load another segment in. 18:47:59 Ilari, and discarded any data in it? 18:48:52 One probably also could swap out data segments. Those didn't reset when reloading. 18:50:33 I think it assumed that code segments are always 'clean' (and ALTER broke that assumption). 18:52:36 Remember, this was on era when even virtual memory wasn't common on mainframes... 18:54:07 And even mainframes didn't have multitasking but ran the tasks batch-style. 18:59:44 Ilari, have you ever coded COBOL? 19:00:10 err, let me clarify that 19:00:21 Have you ever had a job where you coded COBOL? 19:01:32 No, I haven't coded COBOL. Just ran across that information about COBOL once. 19:03:11 COBOL was actually less awful than many people give it credit. It was designed long before we had *any* clue what makes a good programming language. 19:03:25 The only other languages out there were the languages that COBOL was based on. 19:03:31 Oh, and assembly. 19:05:00 FORTRAN. 19:05:18 Algol and co. of course as well. 19:08:13 -!- calamari has joined. 19:08:40 what about LISP? 19:08:43 or was it later on? 19:09:14 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 19:11:43 I think it was around the same time 19:12:13 mhm 19:17:29 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 19:17:35 118 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-----. [459] 19:17:48 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 19:17:50 110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [315] 19:17:55 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 19:17:58 126 ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++>+><<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>++. [601] 19:18:52 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 19:19:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:20:55 How does that work 19:23:56 -!- Azstal has joined. 19:24:36 does what work? 19:25:20 bf_txtgen, how does it do its thing 19:26:05 Deewiant, genetic algorithm based on the form "set constant, set some other constants based on the first, print stuff and use +/- as needed as you go along" 19:26:25 Genetic? heh 19:27:07 Deewiant, well think so, or one of those other "find good value" thingies. I'm not sure if it does recombination or not 19:27:09 ask GregorR 19:27:12 he wrote it after all 19:27:33 !source 19:27:35 !info 19:27:36 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null 19:27:43 it is in that repo somewhere 19:27:48 -!- Azstal has quit (Client Quit). 19:28:21 anyone know what a good type to represent a tree would be in python? 19:28:30 Everything's a tree 19:28:32 What kind of tree 19:28:40 Deewiant, parse tree of loops for bf for example 19:29:00 Deewiant, trying to learn python so decided to write a trivial non-optimising bf interpreter in it 19:29:55 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:30:28 and the sanest way is to make [ have the stuff in the loop as it's "children" 19:30:41 at least the sanest way I can think of 19:30:53 I guess just the basic thing: a class Node which contains a list of Nodes. 19:31:08 Or call it whatever you want, I tend to call stuff like that Node. 19:31:41 Deewiant, or a list containing either add,sub,print,read or a nested list? 19:31:47 wait, does python have atoms? 19:32:47 if not, how does one define some arbitrary symbolic name to represent an abstract value? 19:32:58 in C you would generally use an enum or #define it 19:33:10 in erlang you just use an atom 19:33:20 Deewiant, and what do you do in python? 19:33:23 I don't know 19:33:27 oh ok 19:33:39 There appears to be a library for symbols, if that's what you want: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SymbolType 19:33:56 Deewiant, is it built into the language itself like enums and such? 19:34:02 "a library" 19:34:23 Libraries typically aren't builtin 19:34:24 Deewiant, I don't know how much a python library can change the language. Considering what can be done to perl... 19:34:50 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:34:56 You can look at the examples on that page, I believe 19:39:07 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:39:34 * AnMaster wonders how to write a bf parser without tail recursion.... 19:39:36 Wait I have done this in C... 19:39:44 surely it shouldn't be any harder... 19:40:00 well, the tail recursion one would be a lot more elegant, sigh 19:40:40 -!- calamari has joined. 19:44:10 gah, python has no switch? 19:44:19 or case 19:45:00 Use a hash table 19:45:08 Deewiant, how do you mean? 19:45:34 as in, put functions in a dictionary and call the relevant entry? 19:45:45 Instead of switch (foo) { case x ... } you can have an AA with x as a key and call the function at foo 19:45:50 Yep 19:46:05 AA? Anti Alias? 19:48:13 Deewiant, um one of the possible actions is returning from the function, I'm not sure how that could be acomplished 19:48:19 return to the caller? 19:48:22 of the caller 19:48:50 Make it return false or whatever in that case 19:48:58 hm 19:52:04 Deewiant, any idea why: (loop, i) = parse_prog(program, i+1) 19:52:06 doesn't work 19:52:22 oh wait, python doesn't have pattern matching does it :( 19:52:22 Yes, various ideas 19:52:35 I'm not going to list them all in response to the problem description "doesn't work" 19:52:36 it seemed the obvious and elegant way 19:52:42 And no, it doesn't. 19:52:44 ValueError: too many values to unpack 19:52:49 hm interesting error 19:53:08 Are you sure you're returning a pair from there always? 19:53:12 Sounds like you might not be 19:53:20 oh right, I wasn't always 19:53:25 but now it seems to work 19:53:27 and that's odd 19:55:04 Deewiant, ok... wtf: mylist += 'foo' adds the element foo at the end as expected. mylist += ['foo', 'bar'] instead concatenates... 19:55:08 this is illogical 19:55:22 (and I wanted to add the list as an element 19:55:23 ) 19:55:58 It's what I'd expect from a dynamic-type language like that 19:56:13 Using + for concatenation is bad enough IMO :-P 19:56:32 heh true 19:57:26 Deewiant, how does one reload a python module that one imported without exiting and restarting the REPL (or whatever you call the python interpreter shell thingy) 19:57:47 I don't know 19:58:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:03:48 Deewiant, ah #python says it is reload(module) but "don't do it, because stuff will break" 20:10:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:10:28 Hi :-) 20:41:39 Deewiant, even worse: 20:41:50 Deewiant, mylist += ("a", "pair") 20:41:53 guess what that does? 20:42:02 add as element or concat? 20:42:33 Beats me 20:42:38 Deewiant, concat 20:42:41 which makes no sense 20:42:51 It might, if lists and pairs are the same thing 20:42:56 I don't know whether they are 20:43:00 Deewiant, pairs are immutable 20:43:06 while lists aren't 20:43:21 So they're essentially considered lists in that sense 20:43:30 Deewiant, well I don't know enough either 20:43:39 but mypair += list 20:43:41 wouldn't work 20:43:48 also they aren't pairs, they are tuples actually 20:43:54 just I use a 2-tuple here 20:43:57 which end up the same way 20:47:13 -!- Asztal has joined. 20:55:24 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:56:29 what do you use in python to print a string with no following space or newline 21:00:56 print x, 21:02:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:18:55 -!- coppro has joined. 21:32:35 AnMaster, Deewiant: I did not write bf_txtgen, calamari did. I didn't write most of what's in EgoBot, for that matter. 21:32:54 GregorR, well true, but thought you wrote that one 21:35:19 -!- Azstal has joined. 21:42:45 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:33:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:40:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 22:41:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:22:40 -!- ehird has joined. 23:22:48 I have RSI now! :P 23:26:17 15:48:24 can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz 23:26:17 what. 23:27:14 19:08:36 s/plain-text// 23:27:18 pandora stores passwords in WHERE?! 23:27:36 19:32:41 someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine 23:27:40 i would answer, but you said hardware is boring. 23:27:49 22:52:23 See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.) 23:27:57 pretty sure Mark Pilgrim initiated it with "configure Debian" 23:28:33 ehird: is it cache size or something? 23:28:42 coppro: what are the two costs? 23:28:53 ehird: like $100 difference 23:29:10 coppro: one's newer. perhaps one uses 45nm and the other uses 60nm or something 23:29:17 coppro: perhaps extra cache. a whole bunch of things. 23:29:26 coppro: who are you buying this from? 23:29:38 erhid: Lenovo 23:30:01 both have the same cache, both are 45nm 23:30:18 coppro: T9600 is more power-hungry 23:30:24 your battery will last longer on the P9500 23:30:27 although I can't say how much by 23:30:35 ah 23:30:46 P9500 is slower in raw ghz, ofc 23:31:00 both have the same bus speed... 23:31:16 coppro: if you care about battery life and don't need uber performance, get the P9500 23:31:30 if you want to save whole SECONDS on your gcc compile, get the T9600 23:31:38 (or if you want to save $$$, ofc) 23:31:49 ok, thanks 23:31:53 coppro: what model thinkpad, btw? 23:31:59 ehird: T500 23:32:19 ah. a wonderful lugbook :-P 23:32:56 indeed 23:33:00 coppro: btw, apparently there's more keyboard flex on the newer thinkpads of some models 23:33:02 ymmv 23:33:07 yes, I know 23:33:09 I read the reviews 23:33:12 right 23:33:49 personally I'm getting an old ThinkPad for the 4:3ness... 23:36:48 yeah :( 23:37:03 one of the downsides to a new computer 23:37:13 I love widescreen at 20" or bigger... 23:37:23 but, ehh, I like laptops that fit on my lap 23:37:42 a 14" 4:3 ThinkPad can fit on your lap, just like a 12" 16:10 ThinkPad 23:37:48 except that the latter is useless as a main machine 23:38:20 but by getting an old model, I compromise on speed, battery life, heat and brighter displays :( 23:39:58 to mitigate the battery life I plan to use an UltraBay battery pack to replace the optical drive, but iirc the 14" Tsomething gets around 4.5-5 hours battery; I imagine I'll get up to 6 hours with the pack 23:40:12 which isn't nearly as nice as the X200, which gets 9 hours on the 9-cell, but eh 23:40:44 speed, I can manage as long as I have two cores; using an SSD should mitigate any silly clockspeed or architecture differences compared to my current machine 23:41:12 heat shouldn't be too much of a problem since thinkpads have always been cool 23:41:17 SSD is too costly :( 23:41:31 as for a brighter display, nothing I can do. :-( 23:41:43 which kills any chance of using it outside, I guess 23:41:47 I'll have to see 23:42:05 coppro: yeah. on the other hand I'll probably save by getting an older model 23:42:08 still 23:42:18 coppro: downgrade the CPU to the minimum and add an SSD :-P 23:42:31 also, ssd is tiny 23:42:36 not really 23:42:40 max laptop drive nowadays, about 320gb 23:42:47 lenovo offers 128 and 256gb ssds 23:43:33 admittedly even with the base CPU it might be too expensive, but it'll be way, way faster in general use than upping the CPU to the top option 23:43:55 obviously not when doing CPU-intensive stuff, but that's so fast nowadays as tobe irrelevant 23:43:57 *to be 23:47:06 lenovo rival apple in markup cost, which is irritating but understandable 23:48:06 i wonder if it would be possible to rip out the backlight and replace it with a LED one :D 23:48:26 well, they do allow unserviced upgrades 23:48:44 yes, but I'm not even sure if you can *do* that to a display 23:49:04 and I'd have no hope of finding a 14" display of the right dimensions, with a LED backlit, and the right connectors 23:49:16 oh, and a high resolution like you can get on the ThinkPad stock ones 23:49:28 simply because there was no ThinkPad produced with such a display 23:49:39 yeah :( 23:50:03 ThinkPad is one of very few computers with the most important thing nowawadays :( 23:50:15 keyboard, you mean? 23:50:16 also matte 23:50:40 those matter, but the absolute most important thing is the nipple mouse 23:51:04 eh, I'd be happy with Apple's wonderful large multitouch trackpad too, but failing that, yep 23:51:21 from the looks of it, ThinkPads' trackpad is woefully bad 23:51:26 irrelevant 23:51:32 haven't tried the multitouch touchpad though 23:51:33 just saying 23:51:52 all I'll use it for is scrolling, since it looks bad. :P 23:51:56 anyway the only *unsolved* problem I have is the display brightness, I think 23:52:10 I use pageup/down for scrolling... call me old-fashioned 23:52:31 that's a great way to give yourself a headache and slow yo udown while you try and find where you left off 23:52:36 *you 23:54:13 coppro: why the T500 over the T400, btw/ 23:54:14 *? 23:54:31 penis size obv 23:54:50 coppro: then you want the W700ds, duh 23:55:01 gotta love that extraneous second screen 23:55:08 heh 23:55:21 coppro: and RAID. and quad-core. 23:55:29 and a 3 minute battery life!!! 23:55:31 lol 23:56:45 i know what I'll do! 23:56:59 get a non-booting 14" 4:3, rip out the insides 23:57:03 pop the insides of an X200 in 23:57:06 voila 23:57:26 also, saw the T400s display's sides off 23:57:31 hmm 23:57:38 the T500's, actually, to get the height 23:57:39 pop it in 23:57:40 voila!! 23:57:51 why didn't I think of that before. 23:59:42 -!- adam_d_ has quit ("Leaving").