00:11:36 -!- MizardX- has joined. 00:12:52 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:13:03 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 00:33:59 im so happy, i finally found my 'information theory and its engineering applications' book after it had been lost for months 00:34:22 Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 00:34:30 i ranted to this channel about how frustrated i was i couldnt find it months ago, and ive spent countless hours searching since then - i know youve all been up night crying on my behalf 00:34:41 Yes :< 00:34:57 well, you may once again sleep happily in the knowledge that D.A. Bell's classic work is once again safe on my shelves 00:35:20 well i _have_ been up night a lot... 00:36:02 hm that name rings a *hit by falling anvil* 00:36:11 haha 00:37:26 so far as i can tell, its been established for a long time that informational entropy and physical entropy are in fact the exact same thing, but lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is unclear 00:39:13 whoa, the wikipedia entropy article has been massively rewritten, its much better now - so of course it has tags saying its worse 00:39:41 well that article can only get worse, naturally 00:39:45 * oerjan ducks 00:40:09 unless we attach a good heat sink to it! 00:40:24 Oh, re: R6RS pairs being immutable - pairs are mutable, but set-car!/cdr! are in a separate library and there's a big honking fat "DO NOT USE" on 'em. 00:41:12 do it anyway just to be a rebel 00:41:47 "You know one neato idea that Perl hasn't borrowed: not being a giant pile of half digested crap." — reddit troll 00:42:04 (Immediately following, similarly hilarious sentence: "The language doesn't even have named arguments and it treats arrays as weird lumps of memory that aren't even first class.") 00:43:23 dammit, the wikipedia article still has this garbage in it: The question of the link between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy is a hotly debated topic. Some authors argue that there is a link between the two,[39][40][41] while others will argue that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.[42] 00:43:42 mycroftiv: would you prefer wikipedia denied that there's any controversy at all? 00:44:12 You appear to have a problem of distinguishing "I strongly hold this to be true" with "Every material should treat this as true and never question it or even mention any questionings of it" 00:44:18 s/with/from/ 00:44:51 ehird: the article contradicts itself unfortunately...because earlier and later in the article it states their equivalence...so it should really be one way or another, shouldnt it? 00:45:21 mycroftiv: "X and Y are equivalent" and then "Whether X and Y are equivalent is controversial" are not contradictory 00:45:35 Although I suspect the former is more like "X and Y are generally accepted to be equivalent" 00:45:41 Which makes them even less contradictory 00:45:50 Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a list of facts 00:46:24 anyway, the point is that the article is disorganized and makes 'weasel worded' statements like that when it should just cover the material 00:47:05 the citation [42] is also being abused, it doesnt deny the equivalence, instead it makes the claim that they should be treated as *semantically* distinct 00:47:08 See, "just covering the material" isn't the same as conveniently not mentioning any controversy 00:47:13 mycroftiv: Fine, it may be a bad line 00:47:14 Remove it then 00:47:19 i want it do *more* than just mention the controversy 00:47:26 I'm just saying that the reasons you objected to are bad 00:48:13 i object to that line because it doesnt provide information and id say its basically misleading - there is other good information in the article, and that section should focus on it - i *agree* there is a huge controversy! 00:48:23 right, then :P 00:48:27 but that's not really what you said 00:49:01 i started out by saying 'lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is still unclear' 00:49:41 i want the wikipedia article to act to clarify the confusion with good solid sourced information as vetted by a presumably expert community 00:50:22 im not expert enough personally to try to clean it up 00:50:56 if only experts could edit wikipedia articles, well (a) it'd be citizendium and suck and (b) there'd be less drama but (c) a lot more cocksucking 00:51:05 and (d) some more crappage 00:51:19 did i mention it'd be rubbish./ 00:51:24 *without the / 00:51:49 no, only with the / 00:52:11 No, with OR without the / 00:52:13 i edit wikipedia frequently, but part of being a good editor is knowing when you arent quite good enough for a given topic 00:54:24 i read the wikipedia entropy related articles quite a bit and they are generally solid, but they are mostly written (i presume) by students and arent quite up to the standard of the treatment of the subject in books written by experts, it would be nice to get them there 00:57:02 the thing that makes me so angry about wikipedia is all the editors who totally ignore the examples of previous encyclopedias in making up tons of absurd rules 00:57:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:57:25 for instance, the music theory essays in the encyclopedia britannica 1912 edition were by donald francis tovey, and are total masterpieces 00:57:46 old britannicas suck so much. no ctrl-f! 00:57:49 but they would be angrily rejected by tons of current wikipedia editors as 'non-encyclopedic' and 'like a personal essay' etc 00:57:56 if someone's HTMLed an old britannica that'd be neat 00:58:12 that 1912 britannica actually got folded into wikipedia several years ago 00:58:22 it formed the core of a lot of the 'generic info' 00:59:27 wait, it was 1911 edition, off by a year 01:00:06 yes, but then modified and stufjkflgl;j 01:00:15 yeah 01:00:34 because the interesting thing is that the 1911 brittanica contradicts a lot of the wikipedia 'rules' that the rule-crazed people love 01:00:51 it has a ton of POV essays written by experts in their field, basically 01:01:01 such as the Donald Francis Tovey music theory essays i love so much 01:04:04 nothing stirs a conversation up like old D.F. Tovey, those emininent British musicologists are so beloved! 01:05:53 green s 2 b + 5 o 4 2 9 0 10 one 2 7 9 0 4 01:16:11 blue 2 a m 4 - 6 t 3 1 19 x l 01:18:49 you don't understand the ((((kkkkkkkkkk semantic 01:19:12 kkkkkould be 01:34:39 -!- calamari has joined. 02:05:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:06:44 Would it be wrong for me to make an esolang based on a scripting language for something that exists? 02:09:52 Would it kill you to stop asking stupid questions? 02:13:15 Would it be too much to ask for a bit of if the which is? 02:16:33 Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? 02:16:51 Yes, definitely. 02:17:14 Several times, in fact. 02:18:04 On the other hand, if that would have the requested before that then if the whole question very much. 02:41:20 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:00:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good maybe"). 03:05:50 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 03:13:40 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 03:13:56 AnMaster: You know how you said file info dialogs use binary storage prefixes? 03:14:03 OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard uses metric now 03:20:52 laaaaaaaaaaame 03:29:09 bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities. 03:29:29 The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes. 03:29:48 disk drive total capacities? 03:29:53 "200GB" drive 03:29:55 only by sleazy marketers 03:29:58 no 03:30:00 by all disk companies 03:30:08 and how is it sleazy marketing? see all my other examples 03:30:36 Besides, 2^30 is really arbitrary; the "binary thousand" is just the power of 2 closest to the decimal number 1000 03:30:43 as well as all the other similar numbers 03:31:39 how many bits does it take to address 4 gigabytes? 03:31:58 [03:29] ehird: bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities. 03:31:58 [03:29] ehird: The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes. 03:32:18 (As well as, you know, everything outside of computation) 03:32:31 *computing; computation is a thing computers do 03:32:37 you just said that 03:32:44 Yes, Idid. 03:32:46 *I did 04:00:44 -!- Halph has joined. 04:02:06 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:02:07 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 04:31:03 -!- Asztal has joined. 04:40:50 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:47:59 -!- oklofok has joined. 04:52:33 -!- coppro has joined. 04:55:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:45 -!- ehird has quit. 05:54:50 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:04:57 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:06:44 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:13:32 -!- impomatic has left (?). 06:21:53 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:30:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:42:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:50:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 06:53:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:53:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 06:54:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:54:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:17:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:21:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 07:55:36 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:54:04 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 10:02:25 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:16:58 -!- M0ny has quit. 10:31:20 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:45:07 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 12:36:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:03:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:16:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:44:32 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:54:26 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 13:58:35 -!- M0ny has quit. 14:15:05 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:26:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:28:48 -!- int-e has joined. 14:34:34 oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right? 14:37:26 i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference 14:51:28 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:20:57 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:21:04 I should get to work on my Base 5 esolang 15:22:28 base 5 esolang? 15:23:00 an esolang 15:23:05 with numbers stored in base 5 15:23:53 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:26:11 9 kinds of commands 15:26:19 15 commands total 15:27:24 actually 16 now 15:30:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:31:27 This should output "Hello World!" 15:31:28 @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O<<<223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O 15:32:32 http://pastebin.com/d551db7b7 15:32:50 yes, this is a dynamic cell memory 15:32:55 that wraps around 15:32:59 oh wait 15:33:02 if it wraps around 15:33:05 I can see an improvment 15:33:11 @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O>223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O 15:33:15 2 bytes smaller 15:33:24 what's dynamic cell memory 15:33:28 basically 15:33:32 a cell memory of a dynamic size 15:33:35 :P 15:33:43 right 15:33:44 you can add/remove number cells 15:33:55 what do you think about it 15:34:02 so you extend it explicitly 15:34:14 yes 15:34:19 you can also duplicate numbers 15:34:21 infinitely extending + wraps around don't mix otherwise, so i was confused 15:34:34 well it doesn't extend infinitely 15:34:39 but allows for infinite memory in theory 15:34:42 but not in practice 15:34:59 it should be compatible with BF 15:35:07 if you just do @ a whole load of times 15:35:12 +,-,<,> work as normal 15:35:19 . == O 15:35:19 , == i 15:35:24 profound 15:35:26 [...] == (...) 15:35:30 so it is turing-complete 15:35:34 yay 15:35:40 I am calling it Bafie 15:35:56 BAse FIve 15:35:57 "whole load of times"? 15:36:05 however many cells the app needs 15:36:16 you could just do a 15:36:23 hmm 15:36:23 @444(@-) 15:36:29 wait 15:36:33 @444(@-)- 15:36:39 hehe 15:36:41 to generate 125 empty cells 15:36:45 er, no 15:36:49 @444(@-)(-) 15:36:51 er, wait 15:36:53 you don't need the (-) 15:36:57 so @444(@-) 15:36:59 so that proves it's tc, but the proof requires a superturing compiler 15:37:03 yes 15:37:12 well 15:37:17 the proof requires infinite memory :P 15:37:22 but it allows for it 15:37:26 err 15:37:26 as long as the computer has infinite memory 15:37:46 proof don't require memory 15:38:04 also 15:38:07 what IS a superturing compiler 15:38:09 *proofs 15:38:18 the compiler needs to know when the program halts 15:38:28 well for BF compatibility 15:38:33 but, if it can do that, then you can compile all halting programs to your language 15:38:40 well 15:38:41 it can 15:38:57 well, yeah 15:39:03 wait 15:39:16 you mean the BF->Bafie compiler? 15:39:17 but, because all programs either halt or not, that does prove all bf programs that halt can be compiled to your language, there's just no algorithm to do it. 15:39:35 i mean... that doesn't prove such an algo exists, naturally one does 15:39:36 well 15:39:42 because you can extend by need 15:39:46 well 15:39:57 thats the main problem 15:40:03 counting how many cells did a program use 15:40:11 That'd require to interpret the whole program 15:40:13 :/ 15:40:14 this is a very subtle and interesting issue, don't try to understand it 15:40:21 yeah 15:40:28 so i should just know what of it 15:40:33 is my language TC? :P 15:40:45 i think it is, but you need to show how to actually extend the tape 15:40:51 because you need to do it every time you go out of tape 15:40:58 If you go out of tape 15:40:59 otherwise there's no way to actually do the compilation 15:41:02 you go back to the first entry 15:41:07 think about +[>+] 15:41:18 well 15:41:21 non-halting programs can't be compiled the way you said 15:41:21 I could add a new command 15:41:29 asiekierka: but how do you know you're out of the tape? 15:41:34 to add a cell ONLY if it's the last cell 15:41:36 you just wrap around if you go out of it 15:41:55 that's the problem 15:42:05 the problem of Bafie 15:42:25 well it was designed to wrap the tape around AND make it of definable size 15:42:31 that would be the boring way out of it 15:42:42 well 15:42:55 the design means that it can't create a new cell if you're out of the tape either 15:42:59 It would need to alert you somehow 15:43:00 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:43:05 Also i don't want it to stop execution 15:43:16 the "more interesting" one (or maybe just more tedious) is to keep the index you're at, currently, and the size of memory allocated, always with you 15:43:28 well 15:43:41 The interpreter can by default only read values 000-444 (base 5) 15:43:44 or 0-124 (base 10) 15:43:53 by having the tape contain actual data in every second cell, and in the other cells, carry around these indices 15:44:01 hmm 15:44:16 well 15:44:25 I could add a command to output the index of the cell you're at into the current cell 15:44:28 but that's useless :P 15:44:37 also damages data 15:45:02 you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P 15:45:03 asiekierka, reminds me of my RinGy language 15:45:25 actually no 15:45:29 i will try to find it out 15:45:35 go ahead 15:45:37 Memory is originally finite, _ inserts a blank memory set to 0 15:45:38 Well, BF doesn't tell you about it either 15:45:46 where you are 15:45:52 and the size is also undefined 15:45:56 defined by the interpreter 15:46:03 i'm assuming bf with infinite memory 15:46:17 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:46:18 oh THAT 15:46:18 otherwise bf is a trivial language 15:46:24 i mean, mathematically 15:46:37 you can just list all programs and their outputs, and run them in constant time :) 15:46:38 I could have an extra command 15:46:59 i've turned into a mathematician :< 15:47:04 <...> - if the (index%125) doesnt match up with the current register's value, do ... 15:47:08 well, gotta go read number theory -> 15:47:15 and not help me? :( 15:48:25 also, firefly 15:48:28 was RinGy TC? 15:49:15 I don't know yet 15:49:25 It has some other stuff making it harder to determine, though 15:50:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:51:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:08:42 -!- Slereah[EF] has joined. 16:10:08 -!- Slereah[EF] has changed nick to Slereah. 16:15:23 -!- svarg has quit (Connection timed out). 16:16:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:16:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:17:55 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:18:16 -!- oklofok has joined. 16:41:06 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:43:56 -!- ineiros has joined. 16:44:14 http://apina.biz/19780.png 16:46:12 well, in two years, it'll be 2012, and i'll be living in the basement waiting for the end of the world 16:46:24 give or take a year 16:46:27 That dude is NEET 16:46:29 actually 16:46:43 i'll be 23 in *three years*, so don't give any years 16:46:49 so, second time i forget my age 16:52:27 -!- jix has joined. 16:52:40 -!- ineiros has quit ("gone"). 16:53:21 -!- ineiros has joined. 16:57:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 17:23:41 -!- Pthing has joined. 17:26:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:29:08 -!- Libertine has joined. 17:29:11 HIiiiii 17:29:17 hi 17:29:30 Oh this is an esoteric programming channel 17:29:34 yes 17:29:46 I was looking for other esoteric stuff 17:29:48 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:30:10 Libertine: sorry, I'm not entirely sure where to find it; freenode is probably the wrong network, though 17:30:56 you mean like esoteric esoteric programming? 17:30:59 As in 17:31:07 esoteric programming in esoteric programming languages 17:31:24 asiekierka: no, it's someone who's come to the wrong channel by mistake; 'esoteric' has more than one meaning 17:31:25 Like an eso interpreter? 17:31:29 yes 17:33:21 So I heard brainfuck is an esoteric language, anyone here use it? 17:33:26 yes, lots of us 17:33:29 some of the bots, too 17:33:34 ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 17:33:34 Hello, world! 17:33:51 mostly, though, we aren't mad enough to try to use it for anything serious 17:33:55 It looks totally incomprehensible 17:34:00 some people are 17:34:04 see the decss decoder 17:34:16 well, many esolangs are designed to look difficult 17:35:00 hmm.. I see 17:35:22 and some actually are more difficult than others 17:35:47 I have tried to program in Java (my first programming language) but I find it difficult 17:35:51 Why might this be? Am I stupid? 17:36:05 no, it's because Java is really obnoxious 17:36:37 for a beginner, java is a horrible choice, imo 17:36:40 I hear this from many experienced programmers; java is awful etc. Not a good first language. 17:36:59 Which languages are considered good for a beginner? 17:37:11 i would consider python 17:37:12 oklofok: let's say, I know someone else whose first language was Java, and they ended up awful at programming 17:37:32 and yes, I was thinking Python too; although there's lots I don't like about it, it's OK for a beginner 17:37:50 BASIC's good if you don't want to be demoralized, although it's less good for actual learning 17:38:12 with java, you never start "thinking in programming", because you're first instinct when you see a problem isn't to quickly code it up, or at least quickly think of a solution in your head 17:38:16 because it's a verbose language 17:38:22 Python is a all-around good language. Flawed, but it doesn't do anything actually *horribly*. 17:38:41 *your first 17:38:44 another advantage of Python is that it is at least easy to read 17:40:29 I enjoy programming in Java at times, but it seems like a lot of effort to to accomplish minor tasks. I have two large half-read Java books gathering dust, so should I start learning Python to get back some of my motivation? Thanks for answering my questions oklofok, ais523, pikhq 17:40:44 hi 17:40:49 hi 17:41:34 Definitely learn Python. One of the things it definitely gets right is that it's easy to do minor tasks in it. 17:41:44 lot of effort for minor tasks, and most of all lots of effort to build a good abstraction, although that's true for most OO, i guess. 17:41:55 (this feature makes any language much easier to learn) 17:45:49 Thank you! :) 17:47:21 where does sudo store the needed info for the "don't have to enter password again if you recently used sudo in the same terminal" thingy 17:47:35 (for some reason it doesn't work between different terminal tabs for me *shrug*) 17:47:58 AnMaster: /var/run/sudo 17:48:20 ais523, hm empty but ok 17:48:42 the GUI versions of sudo tend to use daemons, to avoid writing anything to disk 17:49:07 ok that directory contains a directory with the user name, which contains three empty files: 0 1 unknown 17:49:08 huh 17:50:15 maybe the timestamps of the files are relevant? 17:51:14 hm maybe 17:51:20 seems like a weird way to store it 17:55:04 -!- Libertine has quit. 18:02:35 I don't understand screen dimming timeout on my laptop... 18:03:00 sometimes it dims after about a minute inactive, sometimes it is about half a minute, sometimes closer to 5 minutes 18:03:09 all during the same session... and on AC... 18:31:49 I wish there was an esolang that can do 3d rendering 18:32:15 asiekierka: Deltaplex 18:39:31 Is there an esolang that never says/returns the truth? 18:39:50 what do you mean 18:40:54 for example 18:40:55 for 2+2 18:40:57 it returns any value 18:40:58 but not 4 18:41:10 if you want it to print "Hello, world!" 18:41:15 it saying anything EXCEPT "Hello, world!" 18:41:20 prints* 18:41:27 If you want it to lie 18:41:30 the program ends 19:42:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:42:29 ais523, what about sadol 19:42:35 iirc there is a raytracer in it? 19:42:48 AnMaster: Deltaplex has primitives for 3D graphics, though 19:42:51 so likely is better for it 19:42:55 ais523, using opengl? 19:43:27 AnMaster: I think so 19:43:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:43:38 asiekierka, anyway, all tc languages can render 3D graphics, for example I could imagine a bf render.bf < input > output 19:43:41 or similar 19:43:46 that outputs a ppm or even png 19:43:53 though png seems overkill 19:44:10 and iirc ppm is a trivially simple format 19:46:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:01:23 It's just ascii-texty; Windows bitmaps aren't much more complicated. PNG would probably be a lot more boring to write, lots of header bytes there. (But you can put uncompressed blocks into a deflate/zlib stream.) 20:06:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:19:11 -!- adam_d has joined. 20:54:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:56:55 06:34:34 oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right? 20:56:55 06:37:26 i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference 20:56:59 no, and context? 20:57:57 as always, context is left as an exercise 20:58:35 except i've decided to try to do that less 20:58:39 so umm xkcd 21:11:10 oklofok, I time travelled here from yesterday 21:13:14 oklofok: i can find nothing i said that provides context for those two lines 21:13:44 (in the last day or so) 21:13:45 the xkcd about your life 21:13:53 oh it was much further than that 21:14:01 my brain isn't all that linear 21:14:15 hm might be easier to look up the xkcd 21:14:36 not sure it was linked, you said they made an xkcd about your life 21:14:51 the one where the dude knows french 21:15:54 i vaguely recall making a joke about it, lessee... 21:16:27 -!- ehird has joined. 21:16:36 ah, http://xkcd.com/621/ 21:17:09 i don't think we ever got past present and perfect tenses, anyway 21:17:45 (past present not a phrase, there) 21:17:49 also you don't share your dreams 21:19:56 (past present not a phrase, there) <-- damn.. it sounded so logical 21:19:59 for once 21:20:09 hm today i had this dream where i was in my childhood home (i think) and it suddenly dropped over a cliff 21:20:13 in fact it sounded perfect 21:20:38 (sorry for that oerjan. credit should go to you probably) 21:20:57 AnMaster: i didn't notice it until you pointed it out 21:20:58 07:45:02 you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P 21:21:03 a fixed-size tape is obviously not TC 21:21:08 oerjan, I think I copied a joke you made some years ago 21:21:12 you misunderstood the issue, ehird 21:21:12 even if program-defined 21:21:29 any halting program is compilable to it 21:21:35 i don't think I did, I think if you think I did you're reading too much intellectualism into asie's lang 21:21:39 oklofok: ofc 21:21:56 that was all i said, the tc part was about indexing being possible, but hard to explain how to do it rigorously 21:21:59 oklofok: ,[>] is trivially not 21:22:12 ,[>] ? 21:22:16 BF 21:22:32 what about it, and do you mean ,[>,] 21:23:04 it was like the house was balancing on the edge, and just tipped. except i have to deduce that since i dreamed from the inside of the house 21:23:06 you can't give ,[>] a fixed tape size, yet it sometimes halts 21:23:17 well, i guess ,negate[>] would be more interesting 21:23:24 that's outside my scope 21:23:34 ,[>] always halts 21:24:00 oklofok: um 21:24:04 i think you will find it does not 21:24:22 It does? 21:24:22 oh 21:24:32 Why wouldn't it? :\ 21:24:35 i must be dreaming then 21:25:26 oh 21:25:26 err 21:25:30 i'm crazy :) 21:25:37 and then it continued moving, i think, but then i woke up so i don't know where it was moving to. not that i was dreaming the landscape clearly anyhow 21:25:39 ,[>+] is what you meant 21:25:43 ? 21:25:56 no, I meant ,{go > input times} but that involves so much code and dkjdkflhggk 21:26:09 i... see 21:26:16 that always halts 21:26:25 yes yes 21:26:26 i dsfdfkgj 21:26:30 look, I slept at 5:30am after getting severely tired at 8pm, then woke up, lay in bed for hours and finally got up at 8pm, absolutely tired 21:26:36 i am hardly to be expected to be coherent 21:27:03 i'm not judging your incoherence, just stating facts and rubbing my nose 21:27:36 i had to go check between was a real word just now 21:27:54 :) 21:28:13 also, last time i drank beer was after christmas, when the landlady came down with some leftovers from the party 21:28:21 or so i think 21:28:34 08:44:14