00:00:22 if that is the case, then i'm happy. 00:01:12 also why should i know what death star is even if i'd watched star wars, it's impossible to associate names to objects 00:01:22 well *i've 00:03:07 oklopol: associate the ascii code 00:03:14 that is 00:03:25 (('d'*256)+'e')*256 etc 00:03:46 totally 00:03:53 death star is... 474106791790616748777842 00:04:06 in base 36: 257cp4xu24vwgcxe 00:06:54 what do you base that on 00:08:35 beep beep beep 00:08:35 beep beep 00:08:35 beep 00:08:38 beep beep 00:08:40 beep beep 00:08:42 beep 00:08:44 beep beep beep beep 00:08:46 beep beep 00:08:48 beep 00:08:48 beep 00:08:51 beep beep beep 00:08:54 beep beep beep 00:08:56 beep 00:09:02 i'm a robot. 00:09:04 beep. 00:09:22 CUTE LITTLE BOTTIE SWIMMING IN A TREE 00:09:35 computational geometry is sexy 00:09:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 00:10:48 oklopol: yes 00:10:55 beep i base the beeping robot 00:10:59 to beep the beeping beep 00:10:59 vi9z2gxclenmh5l7uej9mjo 00:11:09 MizardX: you did WHAT to that goat? 00:11:14 *the goat 00:11:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:12:15 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:12:34 MizardX: you're backwardsly not amused. 00:12:43 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:12:50 I used the same order as you 00:13:11 eh, right 00:13:11 irb(main):005:0> x="";while i != 0; r = i % 256; i = i / 256; x< pops from the end 00:13:19 (I originally typed that as poops...) 00:40:13 beep. 00:40:24 oklopol: beeeeeeeeep 00:43:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Operation timed out). 00:43:21 beep beep beep beep beep. 00:43:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:45:05 comex: ping 00:45:07 beeeeeeeeee 00:45:07 p 00:54:24 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:54:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:55:20 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:57:15 stumpwm seems silly 01:00:47 beep... 01:00:53 oklopol: unbeep!!! 01:01:10 beep :\ 01:01:12 Holy fuck, I feel an insatiable urge to write some Lisp. 01:01:16 oklopol: WHy THE BEEP 01:02:05 beep beep? 01:02:39 -!- impomatic has joined. 01:02:42 Hi :-) 01:02:44 Meep meep 01:02:47 http://www.samsung.com/hk_en/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=computersperipherals&type=monitors&subtype=giantseries&model_cd=LS23MYZAFV/XSH ; 16:10 → 16:9 → this holy crap. 01:02:51 impomatic: Hi. 01:02:52 * impomatic wonders if ehird lives on reddit. 01:03:00 That is possible. 01:03:19 I sort of have a reflex where I hit Cmd-T, r, down, enter and I get onto proggit. 01:03:24 (Omit the down for non-proggit.) 01:03:28 It's sort of hard to shake off. 01:03:57 :-) 01:07:50 * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot. 01:10:24 Why not something that combines both? 01:10:36 beep! 01:11:10 impomatic: Like what? :P 01:12:18 I don't know. Invent something we don't realise we need. Then find a way to create a need for it. 01:12:34 Like locking someone in a box and forcin them to use it? :P 01:12:40 *forcing 01:27:38 time to sleep! 01:27:40 -!- impomatic has left (?). 01:27:52 "--with-clisp=/usr/local/downstairs/to/the/left/clisp" — stumpwm readme 01:28:01 impomatic: lol, you're in the same timezone and i'm wide awake :D 01:53:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:54:34 pikhq: hi 01:56:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:57:22 http://imgur.com/zwbOA.png ; if it weren't for that prompt in the top-right, I wouldn't have just become a stumpwm fanboy 01:57:46 It's running a goddamn SBCL. Bahahahaha YES. 02:01:26 "This will change the prefix key to + + + + the key. By most standards, a terrible prefix key but it makes a great example." 02:03:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:04:18 -!- oklopol has joined. 02:12:34 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 02:14:27 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:15:48 -!- Slereah has quit. 02:19:49 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:20:35 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:22:53 ehird: Hi. 02:23:15 ehird: StumpWM is quite good. 02:23:25 The only reason I don't use it is inertia. 02:23:42 (that is, StumpWM is strictly better, but Ratpoison is... Already working.) 02:46:49 * coppro enjoys using quirks in punctuation like question or exclamation marks in the middle of a sentence 03:00:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:03:25 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:05:57 -!- coppro has joined. 03:15:40 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:15:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:49:07 pikhq: git clone git://git.savannah.nongnu.org/stumpwm.git && cd stumpwm && autoconf && ./configure && make && sudo make install 03:49:10 then "stumpwm" works 03:49:23 ofc, "sudo apt-get instal sbcl" first 03:49:29 if on a debian-alike 03:49:45 (helps to check that the sbcl package isn't threaded; stumpwm is temperamental with a threaded sbcl) 03:50:06 Also, xnest is FUCKING AWESOME <3 03:52:46 pikhq: oh, you need to install two packages first, like this: 03:52:49 $ sbcl 03:52:52 (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) 03:52:59 (asdf-install:install 'clx) (asdf-install:install 'cl-ppcre) 03:53:22 (skip gpg checks, install personally or system, your choice; if system, do it as root) 03:53:40 (I recommend personally, because if you put all your packages local, you can use C-t : to do package management) 03:54:17 xnest is awesome :) 03:54:58 yes 03:55:22 in fact I wonder why tiling wms do complex arrangements; all they need is one level of vertical split, and one level of horizontal split 03:55:24 and xnest :-P 03:55:46 but yeah, I can try X11 WMs in an OS X window, that's just awesome 03:56:45 The reason is, of course, because X sucks. 03:57:18 (I mean, really: if you're going to do network transparency, why not make it so that a program can detach from an X server and be attached to a different one later? 03:57:21 ) 03:57:21 well, also because it's silly 03:57:27 Also true. 03:57:28 whoa, you trapped me in your parens 03:57:30 like lisp! 03:57:51 pikhq: that would be epic 03:59:14 coppro: my os would let you migrate the window, but not the computation; the computation, but not the window; and both! 03:59:15 :-P 03:59:25 also, migrate a pony. 03:59:27 to your life. 04:02:32 (pikhq: WITHOUT A KERNEL) 04:03:18 I wonder why people use floating mode for bad programs like gimp 04:03:22 instead of just Xnesting 04:38:26 hmm 04:38:31 stumpwm groups seem a bit of a pain 04:38:35 if they are what i think they are 04:38:52 http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/a8bc/ want 04:39:01 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 04:39:09 thinkgeek redesigned omg no 04:39:51 horrible! 04:39:57 ..either that's a genuine comment, even though it doesn't sound like one, or you're sarcastically referring to something that I didn't mention in the first place 04:40:03 it isn't ugly, but wtf 04:40:07 i loved how it looked 04:40:10 all 2001 04:44:35 What is tea doing in a survival kit? 04:44:44 being tea 04:47:43 Ugh, I could easily see myself spending a lot of money on ThinkGeek 04:47:57 you can only do that if you have a lot of money 04:51:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:27 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:00:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 05:00:40 hi MizardX 05:05:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:19:47 http://blog.pastie.org/2009/03/wtf-i-never-said-im-against-testing-i-just-dont-do-it.html ;; ok, i'm not going to use pastie any more; read the comments 05:20:01 summary: "Hahahaha. You're stupid if you don't know why he's wrong. It's oooooooooooobvious." 05:20:10 "Testing is magical. Hahahahaha. He's wrong." 05:20:18 idiot 05:20:40 almost everyone doing "agile" is such an idiot 05:24:04 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:26:16 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:27:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:34:16 eh, stumpwm is awesome. 05:41:54 http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wikipedia_celebrates_750_years_of 05:45:55 haha "While Wikipedia's "American Inderpendance" page remains available to all site visitors, administrators have suspended additions and further edits to its content due to vandalism." 05:56:31 * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot. <-- the window manager I assume will be for your future OS? ;P 05:56:38 oh wait you are still up 05:56:43 Bwahaha. 05:56:53 fuck sleep schedules 05:56:57 AnMaster: I'm currently on an inverse monophasic schedule. 05:57:06 ehird, "monophasic"? 05:57:13 One big ol' block of sleep. 05:57:16 ah 05:57:25 The "western" sleep pattern, apart from Spain, where they do biphasic (monophasic + siesta). 05:57:31 AnMaster: But I do mine in the day. 05:57:33 well I woke up about an hour ago 05:57:41 a bit dark outside already 05:57:52 So I'm up from, like, 7-10pm and asleep at like 1-4pm. 05:57:55 It, uhh, works, for now. 05:57:56 already = this time of year 05:58:12 ehird, when do school start for you? 05:58:26 I'm sure I'll figure something out to get my schedule back on track. 05:58:39 My body appears to cope. 05:58:48 ehird, that's what SHE said 05:58:54 Oh, snappeth. 05:59:15 ehird, alternatively: So did your mom 05:59:25 Oh, that's a good one. 05:59:37 * ehird ponders why emacs' scrollbar is on the left. 05:59:41 also terminals' 05:59:44 it's very sily 05:59:47 with an l 05:59:55 ehird, hm? konsole's terminal is on the right 06:00:05 "traditional" terminals; xterm, rxvt, etc 06:00:10 true 06:00:25 my xterm has no scrollbar though, never bothered finding out how to turn it on 06:00:33 it doesn't by default 06:00:40 AnMaster: why use xterm instead of rxvt-unicode? 06:00:48 i highly doubt you use any of xterm's 80s features 06:00:49 ehird, I use konsole. So mu 06:01:32 Dear emacs: Yes, I'm on OS X; how astute of you. However, I compiled you FOR GTK. That means I want my X11 meta key, "alt", to be used for that purpose, not the Command key, as you so cleverly inferred based on my platform. 06:01:54 oh, wait 06:01:59 I think it's X11 doing that 06:02:00 ehird, I'm sure you can add something to ~/.emacs to change it 06:02:04 oh ok 06:02:08 now i gotsa learn xmodmap :-( 06:02:09 could be X11 indeed 06:02:16 ehird, xmodmap never worked for me 06:02:22 AnMaster: did you hear the news? I'm a fan of a tiling window manager. *gasp* 06:02:25 I use xkb to do the same thing instead 06:02:32 ehird, oh? which one? 06:02:36 stumpwm 06:02:41 Basically, it's ratpoison, BUT 06:02:41 never heard of that one 06:02:45 ouch 06:02:46 (it's the successor) 06:02:46 It's written in Common Lisp 06:02:54 You can evaluate expressions inside its lisp 06:02:55 well not quite as ouch 06:02:59 You can connect to it with emacs and SLIME 06:03:10 You can eat out its insides and replace them while it's running 06:03:10 Anything 06:03:18 It's like a little lisp machine for X11! 06:03:22 ehird, how does it compare to xmonad? 06:03:29 xmonad doesn't do that 06:03:33 well yes 06:03:38 although it has a plugin thing to do basically that 06:03:50 But really, the actual window management is basically identical to ratpoison, except ... more maintained. 06:04:28 But god dammit, I can do C-t : (format nil "Hello, ~a!" "world") and get "Hello, world!" back and it's RUNNING IN MY WINDOW MANAGER so I love it. 06:04:41 ehird, heh 06:04:53 omg Ratpoison changed their logo :( 06:05:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ratpoison.png ;; old awesome logo 06:05:01 ehird, remember, it is still X11 beneath it 06:05:04 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Ratpoison_new.png ;; new crappy logo 06:05:12 AnMaster: Yes, but I'm going to use Linux/X11 anyway 06:05:24 ehird, I actually prefer the new one 06:05:39 AnMaster: But the old one was AWESOME! 06:05:44 the former one looks like the person who made it couldn't draw 06:05:44 Especially that missing pixel on the tail 06:05:50 AnMaster: It's MS Paint chic 06:06:14 The new one is far too antialiased and gradienty and polished for ratpoison anyway :P 06:07:35 (setq inhibit-start-screen t) ;; I hate you, rms 06:07:56 Grr, that doesn't work 06:09:06 AnMaster: Anyway, I can install Lisp packages from my damn window manager 06:09:07 So I'm happy. 06:09:50 *startup, not start 06:09:51 ehird, it still runs on a system with a kernel! 06:09:59 AnMaster: Yes it does, and fuck that shit. 06:10:03 But it's Better. 06:11:45 ehird, better than? 06:11:51 Other things. 06:12:21 What does X11 think the alt key is called...? 06:12:30 I guess Meta on most systems, but I'm trying to rebind mod2 here... 06:12:33 Maybe "Opt" or "Option". 06:12:46 Alt too 06:12:48 iirc 06:12:53 well 06:12:58 not sure about X11 on macs 06:13:04 try xmodmap -p or something 06:13:11 forgot the switch 06:13:14 check man page 06:14:04 xmodmap -dfkjdsfhk gives a list of options, which is nice. 06:14:14 ehird, XD 06:14:28 (generally works with anything but gnu tools) 06:14:43 xmodmap -pke gives an unreasonably long list 06:14:46 * ehird emacses it up 06:14:55 or, I could just scroll :P 06:15:02 Emacs me up scotty! 06:15:06 (ouch) 06:15:29 Hmm, this sleeping pattern is quite nice 06:15:42 I get some sort of instinctual kick out of knowing I'm going to be up all night 06:16:07 AnMaster: alas, the general vicinity just has metas, shifts and controls 06:16:11 along iwth two unlabeled keys 06:16:12 HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 06:16:29 ehird, DON'T PRESS THOSE! 06:16:43 I mean, they are unlabeled for a reason 06:16:52 Key diabolique? 06:16:56 *Keys 06:17:14 * ehird is amused that stumpwm comes with a default hotkey that just starts emacs and nothing else 06:17:16 ehird, worse... 06:17:25 It is vitally important you can get to emacs in three keypresses at all times. 06:17:31 Two, if you don't count modifiers. :P 06:17:34 ehird, you don't want anyone to say their names three times 06:17:48 AnMaster: Keycode 62 Keycode 62 Keycode 62 06:17:51 Keycode 72 Keycode 72 Keycode 72 06:17:54 * ehird explodes 06:17:59 I meant their real names of course 06:18:05 -!- ehird has left (?). 06:18:21 -!- ehird has joined. 06:18:26 did that part message get through? 06:18:34 * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.65.31) has left #esoteric 06:18:34 Anyway, they weren't the right keys :P 06:18:35 no? 06:18:38 AnMaster: darn 06:18:41 I did /part #esoteric busy being exploded 06:18:51 Isn't there an X application that simply prints out every single keypress it gets? 06:18:57 as a keycode w/ symbolic name or whatever 06:19:01 would seem to be trivial 06:19:21 xev maybe 06:19:25 prints out all *events* 06:19:32 so don't move your mouse either 06:19:56 heh, when I start xev my whole screen is white with a small black window border, and then a black border of a white square in the top-left 06:20:02 methinks it is designed for less fullscreeny WMs 06:20:06 ehird, um... whole screen? 06:20:16 AnMaster: Well, whole window that I'm running xnest with stumpwm in. 06:20:17 yeah for me it is a small floating window 06:20:26 ehird, the interesting stuff is printed in the terminal 06:20:26 Yes, stumpwm is a *tiling* WM. 06:20:30 Although it can do floating windows. 06:20:32 I'm not sure how. 06:20:36 AnMaster: yes, I can't see the terminal, can I? 06:20:41 unless I split the screen 06:20:45 ehird, I see the issue 06:20:45 and have it on one side, terminal on the otehr 06:20:47 *other 06:20:48 so I'll do that 06:21:11 "Mode_switch" is Option. 06:21:37 I guess it means "escape" 06:21:44 Does X really use escape as meta? 06:21:49 I thought that was a terminal relic. 06:22:53 * ehird attempts to figure out how to swap two frames in ratpoison 06:23:16 Eh, close enough. 06:23:23 KeyPress event, serial 31, synthetic NO, window 0x2800001, 06:23:24 root 0x1a6, subw 0x0, time 999217048, (314,-142), root:(318,676), 06:23:24 state 0x0, keycode 9 (keysym 0xff1b, Escape), same_screen YES, 06:23:26 hm 06:23:31 ehird, not my X it seems 06:24:24 or, not sure where it says that 06:25:41 keycode 66 si option, /me remembers that 06:25:48 ah, here we go 06:25:50 clear Mod1 06:25:50 clear Mod2 06:25:51 keycode 63 = Mode_switch 06:25:51 keycode 66 = Meta_L 06:25:51 add Mod1 = Meta_L 06:25:51 add Mod2 = Mode_switch 06:27:05 rain rain rain rain *sigh* 06:27:15 wait, that's the wrong way around 06:27:15 err 06:27:17 I think 06:27:19 yep 06:27:20 bbl going to university as soon as I found my umbrella 06:27:23 just need to swap the two add lines 06:32:25 fuck 06:32:27 how do you reset xmodmap 06:36:23 http://wikipediavspredator.com/ 06:36:28 WJW 06:37:10 "This could be the most one sided fight since 1973 when Ali faced an eighty-foot tall mechanical Joe Frazier. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I think the entire Earth was destroyed." 06:37:26 Poor Frazier never stood a chance. 06:44:00 http://imgur.com/LFBWQ.jpg 06:45:47 i wonder what happens if it selects predator as the wp article 06:47:24 This: http://imgur.com/DXvAL.png 06:55:41 -!- Who`s has joined. 06:56:43 -!- Who`s has left (?). 06:58:32 defaults write com.apple.x11 swap_alt_meta -boolean true 06:58:34 THANK THE FUCK! 06:58:47 'cept it's org.x.x11 nowadays 06:59:39 Not that it worked. Sigh. 07:02:18 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:09:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:11:26 Wow, X comes with a screensaver. 07:36:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 07:59:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:14 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:07:39 Perpendicular politics. 08:12:07 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 08:14:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:15:40 -!- ineiros has joined. 08:27:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:36:18 "This should not be taken as an argument against same-sex marriage. The model fails to generate the following obvious real-world solution: A, B, and C should all move in together and live in joyous tripartite depravity, and X should jump off a bridge." 08:36:19 hi oerjan 08:36:40 * oerjan wonders who X is 08:36:46 hi ehird 08:36:52 A placeholder variable! It's about mathematics actually. 08:37:03 http://blog.plover.com/math/bipartite-matching.html 08:41:44 poor X 08:49:33 -!- olsner has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:50:26 ehh 08:50:37 * ehird peeks hopefully at disk utility 08:50:47 yay! 08:52:12 disks have no utility. little crystal pyramids are where it's at! 08:52:18 o 08:53:01 the rumors that people tend to step on them are just evil propaganda! 08:53:09 ah. 08:53:18 makes sens 08:53:18 e 08:55:55 should i install a minimal ubuntu w/ stumpwm yesno 09:05:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:05:49 ...people actually use openmoko phones 09:06:34 they do it just to annoy you, ehird 09:06:41 i'm just surprised. 09:06:49 AnMaster: do you exist? 09:07:19 ooh, the plot thickens 09:07:27 yes. 09:07:33 TELEPHONY 09:07:35 FUCKING TELEPHONY! 09:07:40 —green—telephony 09:08:00 interesting GNU option 09:08:05 YES 09:08:09 IT MAKES YOUR TELEPHONY FUCKING GREEN 09:08:30 HAHA WOOPS I BROKE IT 09:08:52 you're stocking fupid 09:09:52 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:12:48 oerjan: should i doth it 09:13:21 no, that's ungrammatical 09:13:28 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 09:13:29 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 09:13:31 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 09:13:31 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 09:13:52 "doth" is not an infinitive 09:13:54 oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now. 09:13:57 also, shut up. 09:14:05 i can use olde english as wrongly as i wisheth 09:14:37 also, that's early modern english 09:17:04 you deftly avoid my command! 09:18:33 `define deftly 09:18:35 * dexterously: with dexterity; in a dexterous manner; "dextrously he untied the knots" \ * in a deft manner; "Lois deftly removed her scarf" \ [12]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 09:18:44 specifically, by pedantry 09:20:10 install the ubuntu, then beat it to death with the stump 09:20:23 not that one 09:20:25 [09:13] ehird: oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now. 09:20:25 :P 09:20:52 oh _that_ was so improbable i just ignored it. 09:21:08 also, i ignore "should"s on principle 09:21:15 oerjan: join agora. 09:21:23 * ehird tweaks his improbability drive and produces an infinite improbability d rive 09:21:25 * ehird ahem 09:21:38 $ id 09:21:43 * (+ 2 2) 09:21:44 4 09:22:08 * (evaluate-improbability '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora))) 09:22:17 [Number is too large; string representation omitted.] 09:22:39 * (defvar event '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora))) 09:22:55 * (cause-event :improbability (evaluate-improbability event) :restrain-to event) 09:23:01 oerjan: Join Agora. 09:23:12 what is "id"? 09:23:17 Improbability drive. 09:23:25 Newly made infinite, in my case. 09:23:29 i thought it was a lisp variant... 09:23:47 No, it's merely very flexible, you know. 09:23:54 So you use it with Lisp. 09:24:12 oerjan: Anyway, the cosmic variables have been tweaked; it is inevitable that you will join Agora. 09:25:01 but that would mean time is circular, horrible! 09:25:24 oerjan: There are more things in nomic and earth than your reason dreams of. 09:25:39 You will, in fact, do it as a separate event from every previous instance. 09:25:46 Also, soon; I didn't set :time-limit nil. 09:29:06 meh, I guess I will write a WM! 09:29:13 StumpWM can't do automatic tiling which is getting a little annoying. 09:29:31 (Know how I said almost all tiling WMs are dynamic? They aren't. :P) 09:46:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 09:55:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:34 -!- comex has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:34 -!- cmeme has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:35 -!- Leonidas has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:36 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 09:55:37 -!- comex_ has joined. 09:55:41 hi comex_ :P 09:55:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 09:57:36 -!- lament has joined. 09:57:42 moo 09:58:03 moo, lament! 09:58:05 MOO GOD DAMMIT! 09:58:11 ↑ reverse time. 09:58:18 i have total reverse control over lament. 09:58:19 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 09:58:23 he will do whatever I tell him to, in the past. 09:58:58 -!- cmeme has joined. 09:59:08 isn't that right lament? 09:59:37 say nothing for a while, lament. 10:00:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:00:42 hi ais523 10:00:49 I'm telling what lament to do, and he does it in the past. 10:00:54 *lament what 10:01:17 are you cheating by observing what he does, then telling him to do it immediately afterwards? 10:02:03 ais523: whatever gave you that idea?! 10:02:07 You have an overactive mind. 10:03:57 Say nothing for ages, lament. 10:04:03 * ehird checks 10:04:06 Yep, looks like he obeyed me. 10:07:52 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 10:14:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 10:20:34 wow, what a pointless spam 10:20:53 it said I'd won £500,000, and asked for my name, sex, occupation, and country 10:20:56 and didn't say where to send it 10:21:02 ais523: in reply, duh 10:21:11 you mean those things actually have valid reply addresses? 10:21:22 ais523: umm, they don't just ask for your details up front, no 10:21:37 reply, it can only waste their time 10:21:39 :P 10:22:08 that would only confirm the address as valid 10:22:19 eh? 10:22:22 I suppose I could just use an invalid from address and send directly from my own computer 10:22:32 ehird: I mean, never reply to spam, because it tells them the address you sent from exists 10:22:36 and you get a lot more from then on 10:22:44 ais523: well, the lottery nigerian types, generally no 10:22:48 they're done manually 10:22:56 thus, 419 baiting exists 10:23:09 it's more the hands-off viagra spam that does that 10:23:09 yes 10:23:25 this spam was so short and vague that I can't tell which type it was 10:23:32 also, the usual bad grammar 10:23:37 "your email address have won..." 10:23:47 if you won some money and it wants you to reply, then it's a 419 10:23:53 that's an interesting question, actually; /why/ does spam universally have bad grammar? 10:24:07 ais523: because the spammers have bad gramamr 10:24:08 *grammar 10:24:18 why would bad grammar be correlated with spamming, though? 10:24:25 ais523: third-world economy 10:24:33 e.g., a majority of 419s come from Nigeria 10:24:41 (thus the origin of their name) 10:25:08 yep, 419 is the number of the relevant section in Nigerian law 10:25:11 yes 10:25:26 ais523: anyway, a ton of the scammers are actually really rich 10:25:35 ais523: perhaps they feign bad grammar to seem more authentically foreign. 10:25:38 orrrrrr, they're just dumb. 10:26:00 I thought a typical 419 scam worked by trying to arrange a (fake) large transfer of money from one person to another, and offering the scamee a, say, 10% cut of it 10:26:07 which of course they never get, as the money never existed in the first place 10:26:21 and then just to demand money in the meantime using the traditional scam excuses, such as 'transaction fees' 10:26:52 ais523: pretty much 10:27:36 whereas the you-have-won scams I'd expect to work less well, as they don't give a plausible reason as to why you're getting the money, or of what the scammer gets out of it 10:27:52 ais523: lottery 10:28:02 you got entered in it by your email company because Segmentation fault 10:28:05 ah 10:28:30 (or similar ridiculous excuse; scams prey on the old and stupid... or, well, just the stupid) 10:29:49 a: "hey someone screamed and i ignored it" 10:29:49 a: "what are the chances it was something terrible happening" 10:29:49 b: "two hundred percent" 10:29:49 b: "we're in earshot of two terrible things at all times" 10:29:50 — http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=285 10:30:09 i am pretty sure that is how probability works 10:33:15 hmm 10:33:19 something about X11 I... actually like 10:33:22 ais523: take cover. 10:33:37 oh X11 has lots to like, just even more to dislike 10:33:44 ais523: nonononono, it doesn't though. 10:33:55 i hate pretty much everything about X11 that isn't pretty much vital to having a windowing system. 10:34:02 it's very very scary if I like one of it's oddities 10:34:12 probability dictates that bad things will happen soon. 10:34:14 or at least improbable things. 10:34:15 oh, I like the way you can run the server and client separately, I've even done that before but it turned out to be too slow for what we wanted 10:34:21 you might get a unicorn before the nuclear holocaust 10:34:55 so take cover, or the rabid breed of deadly cat-wasps will eat your brain through your ears before you get your unicorn! 10:37:01 ais523: sorry about that black hole that just appeared where you are. 10:37:07 this is all my fault. i should never have liked it 10:37:18 don't worry, it was rather small and evaporated before it could do any damage 10:37:31 ais523: oh, I said that 60 seconds too early 10:37:38 ais523: I was talking about the planet-sized one that hasn't come yet 10:37:49 if it's planet-sized, it's probably going to affect you as well as me 10:37:58 ais523: it is a very clever black hole. 10:39:22 was nice knowing you ais523. 10:39:31 wow, more developments in SCO vs. Novell 10:40:00 ais523: is there something you haven't told us? like about the fact that you're a creepy extra-dimensional being that can use the internet from inside a black hole? 10:40:06 that. that might be worth telling us about 10:40:07 no pressure 10:40:09 ehird: actually, the black hole isn't here 10:40:14 i 10:40:16 find that very... 10:40:17 oh 10:40:20 improbable 10:40:22 that explains it 10:40:32 hmm... it seems that the money that Sun paid SCO is definitely Novell's, that's been affirmed on appeal, and the rest was remanded 10:41:55 the remanded issues were because the appeals court thought that they were too complex to be legally decidable by one judge, so they're sending it to a jury trial instead 10:42:27 i wonder when someone will ask me what the thing is that i like about X :P 10:42:28 oh, and SCO are claiming that as the appeal didn't uphold the verdict, it must be the wrong verdict 10:45:42 weep meep gubble pleep!!!!!!! 10:45:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 10:46:10 "YEAhim pretty much ''that person''" 10:46:14 whee. 10:47:25 oh, and Microsoft asked for a fast-track appeal of the Word case 10:47:43 and some judges agreed and gave them until the end of the day to make it 10:47:46 now, that's fast-track! 10:47:52 heh 10:48:01 huh, a 14" laptop that weighs under 2kg 10:48:02 i4i have two weeks to respond to it, though 10:48:06 maybe it's made of pixies 10:52:22 and SCO have new management, it was forced on them by the bankruptcy court 11:00:47 gah, xlib and xcb have non-mapping concepts 11:00:55 like xlib display, xcb connection, screen 11:02:59 i'm beginning to think xlib is nicer than xcb 11:06:50 yeah, it is. 11:08:48 ais523: do you know of a less ugly way of saying if (!(foo = bar)) in C? 11:08:52 those extra parens irk me 11:09:04 err, that a deliberate assignment-equals? 11:09:10 ais523: um, no shit 11:09:13 for checking error codes 11:09:19 I'd personally write it "if (!((foo = bar)))" 11:09:24 although that's the opposite direction to what you want 11:09:34 seriously? why on earth? 11:09:37 I've got into the habit of double-parenning assignments in an expression to show they're deliberate 11:09:48 and it's an idiom that gcc, at least, understands 11:10:04 can i just note here that trying to code readable, I-know-this-is-safe-and-what-it-does code in C is really stupid 11:10:18 and an exercise in pointlessness 11:10:33 well, it's a drop in the ocean, but really, it's more important in C than elsewhere 11:10:40 because it gives your program a hope of being readable years later 11:10:47 rather than giving up and knowing for certain it won't be 11:10:57 I can still read much of my C and C++ code that I wrote ages ago, for instance 11:10:59 ais523: I'm one of those crazy people who *is able to distinguish = from ==* 11:11:11 Without (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hot molten death cases))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 11:11:21 hmm, if (!foo = bar) might work 11:11:29 I don't think you can assign to a not-lvalue 11:11:38 ehird: oh, they're easy enough to distinguish, just you have to wonder if it's deliberate or not 11:11:50 I think that's a strawman 11:11:59 ehird: attempting to assign to a non-lvalue is a syntax error, rather than redefining precedence so it makes sense 11:12:10 logic where it's unclear whether assignment or comparison is meant is... incredibly convoluted logic that needs fixing 11:12:22 ais523: I mean that precedence rules might be arranged so such idiotic things don't happen 11:12:42 no, in C operator precedence isn't directional, apart from ( and ) 11:12:50 and = is below ! 11:13:02 darn 11:13:11 * ehird wonders whether for (;;) or while (1) is more popular 11:13:22 there's no mathematical reason why operators can't have different precedences for the two sides, but it rather makes a mess of the textbooks 11:13:31 and I use for (;;) as it's less likely to annoy lintalikes 11:15:28 * ais523 watches as ehird uses while(1) for the same reason 11:15:37 i definitely considered it. 11:15:47 while (1) seems purer 11:16:03 since for generally implies you're iterating 11:16:11 I'd prefer a more expressive conditional construct that lets you just specify no constraints, of course 11:16:13 like: 11:16:16 loop () {} 11:16:19 like QBASIC's? 11:16:23 loop (while x == y) {} 11:16:34 or MAGENTA's, for that matter 11:16:37 loop (for i=0,i<10,i++; while x == y) {} 11:16:43 etc 11:16:54 ehird: you've pretty much invented MAGENTA's looping construct there, just with saner syntax 11:17:02 ais523: no, I've invented lisp's LOOP. 11:17:05 (just with saner syntax) 11:17:14 well, lisp's loop is a looooooot more flexible 11:17:40 ehird: I think MAGENTA's [insert appropriate time-travelling verb here] most of the INTERCAL operations in too 11:17:46 had? will have? will have had? will had had? 11:17:48 wioll? 11:17:56 goshnikblag 11:18:05 "will never have but will have had" 11:18:13 (in alternate timeline, will have) 11:18:18 (in other alternate timeline, has) 11:18:22 (in other alternate timeline, has had) 11:18:24 (in other alternate timeline, had) 11:18:29 basically it means everything. 11:18:39 also, 11:19:14 hmm darn never mind 11:19:22 oh, wait 11:19:42 loop (for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++); if (!(i % 2))) printf("%i\n", i); 11:19:44 voila, is like a magic 11:19:53 (I was doing fizzbuzz but realised that involved branching :P) 11:20:08 you can do a fizzbuzz without branching 11:20:13 well, yes 11:20:19 stop saying such pointless things 11:20:23 it obviously isn't a loop conditional 11:20:26 * ais523 wonders what a Clue fizzbuzz would look like 11:20:44 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:21:41 also, 11:22:22 (loop for i from 1 to 100 when (evenp i) do (print i)) 11:22:27 less stupidly… 11:22:29 *stupidly: 11:22:35 (loop for i from 1 to 100 by 2 do (print i)) 11:22:42 (that's actual common lisp code) 11:23:26 stupid, more formattedly: 11:23:27 (loop for i from 1 to 100 11:23:27 when (evenp i) 11:23:27 do (print i)) 11:23:37 (and yes, it's idiomatic) 11:23:47 beep! 11:23:52 oklopol: stop beeping 11:23:55 beep :( 11:24:02 oklopol: continue beeping, more cogently 11:24:37 ais523: feast your eyes on LOOP's syntax: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_loop.html 11:24:45 (way too big to fit on IRC, so don't ask) 11:24:55 (also, lightweight page, so no point pastebinning) 11:25:24 wow, I'm shocked that anyone would even consider pastebinning a page that was already on the Internet 11:25:40 ais523: I was pandering to your crazy anti-webness. 11:25:48 You know, the common lisp hyperspec might have viagra ads. 11:26:02 Your computer might have to work for upwards of a millisecond to block them, if it's a pentium :P 11:26:13 * ais523 copy-pastes the URL into a browser 11:26:26 I haven't clicked on a link for so long, I hadn't realised that it's broken here for some reason... 11:26:52 I love how LOOP has built in syntax for introspecting all the variables in a package 11:26:55 With options on how to do it 11:27:25 beep, beep beep 11:27:46 oklopol: why are you beeping 11:28:18 beep 7or 11:28:33 ais523: do you know a good psych ward. 11:31:05 beep! :| 11:31:14 ais523: sort of kinda urgent 11:31:23 beeeep :'( 11:31:31 beep beep, beep beep beep -> 11:31:38 dammit. 11:31:45 ... 11:31:46 beep 11:33:01 beep! :) 11:33:12 beep beep, beep beep beep beep; beeeeeeep beep... beep ;) 11:33:19 oklopol: beep ;-) 11:33:19 beep beep, beep beep beep 11:33:20 is that morse code? 11:33:24 beep beep! 11:33:27 beep beep! 11:33:30 ais523: beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep 11:33:31 o! 11:33:35 oklopol: beep, beep: bep? 11:33:49 beep 8| 11:33:49 -> 11:33:55 oklopol: beep bep beep? 11:34:58 [[The TUNES mailing-list is moving! 11:34:58 We've created a Google Group for TUNES: 11:34:58 http://groups.google.com/group/tunes-project/ 11:34:59 There is also new life for the TUNES Project. We intend to build some 11:34:59 actor system based on PLT Scheme, and do fun stuff on top of it, such 11:34:59 as a distributed database.]] 11:35:06 that... doesn't sound like an OS 11:35:13 ehird: when did they write that? 11:35:13 otoh a distributed database sounds sexy. 11:35:19 april this year 11:35:24 when in april? 11:35:26 the first? 11:35:29 no. 11:35:31 ah 11:37:03 13:35… Baughn: JohnFlux: Yeah. It's only missing an "april's fools!" somewhere to make me be sure. <<< beep beep xD :P 11:37:20 (13:34… ais523: the first? <<< beep beep beep beep.) 11:37:31 oklopol: where's that from 11:37:33 don't say #beep. 11:37:59 well Baughn, I guess #haskell 11:38:09 nope. 11:38:37 beep ________ beep 11:38:39 beep _____ beep 11:38:42 beep __ beep 11:38:45 beep beep 11:38:47 i am 11:38:48 BEEEP! 11:38:50 i am unamused oklopol. 11:38:51 #beep. 11:39:00 oklopol. oklopol stop that. tell me. :| 11:40:00 oklopol you suck. 11:44:28 oklopol you suck like something that does. 11:45:01 oklopol: it is #math isn't it 11:45:05 i have determined that it is math. 11:45:08 with uh science 11:45:17 no 11:45:18 it is not 11:45:21 it could be #physics though 11:45:26 but i doubt you're in #physics 11:45:30 beep! :) 11:45:38 you are indeed. 11:45:57 oklopol: that does not make me happy 11:45:59 it does not have logs 11:46:52 ,_, 11:46:55 ↑ this is me 11:46:56 beep 11:47:49 ;_; 11:47:53 i grew eyes 11:48:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:49:20 oklopol i am the very definition of a pol 11:49:24 and you are wasting that in your fury 11:50:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:52:02 beep, puzzlet! 11:52:21 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 11:52:29 Gracenotes, 11:52:30 that is true. 11:52:37 but 11:55:27 Thought. 11:55:32 Why do people indent the bodies of functions in C etc? 11:55:40 It means that pretty much all the code is indented at least one level. 11:55:42 Seems pointless. 11:55:51 to make it easier to find the boundaries between functions 11:56:07 That would be when you have a blank line, a declaration, then a line with just a { on it. 11:56:13 Pretty hard to miss; besides, can't your editor fold? 11:56:17 -!- Pthing has joined. 11:56:31 Also, if you comment your functions at the top it'll be even more noticeable. 11:56:56 ehird: I don't see how a folding editor makes it easier to find function boundaries 11:57:10 Because... when you fold... all there is is the declarations. 11:57:23 ehird: so you'd have to fold, click on the declaration, and unfold again 11:57:33 that's not particularly useful when skimming through a long source file 11:57:35 by eye 11:57:41 I think you're inventing a usecase that doesn't exist 11:57:50 ehird: I do it all the time, although in languages other than C 11:57:54 ais523: if you skim fast enough, you miss the unindentedl ines 11:58:00 and it's really annoying to find that I'm in a different function to what I thought I was 11:58:02 if you don't skim fast enough, you can easily see the { on a line of its own 11:58:07 and the separating blank line 11:58:13 unindented lines are easier to notice because they're touching the margine 11:58:19 *margin 11:58:43 and you get blank lines all the time, and depending on the indentation conventions used, lone {s as well 11:59:26 hmm... Yahoo! mail keeps trying to advertise IE8 at me 11:59:38 I clicked the advert to see what would happen, and they said it wasn't available for my platform 11:59:42 so, why advertise in the first place? 11:59:50 (although they did try to get me to download their toolbar instead) 12:03:47 ais523: because microsoft told them to 12:03:51 for obvious reasons 12:04:14 ais523: anyway, ok, but why a whole tab indent? 12:05:04 ok, I think I'm going insane; I can't figure out what style I'm resulting in here :D 12:05:16 but i think anything that starts with a space and then goes on to tabs is ... interesting 12:06:34 heh, dwm has a macro #define LENGTH(X) (sizeof X / sizeof X[0]) 12:06:39 that's just evil... I'm stealing it 12:10:10 * ehird snaps out of it 12:10:23 ais523: i apologise arguing for some demented "one-space then tabs" indentation scheme 12:14:03 * ehird embeds the io language in a thing. 12:14:09 I uh, I think 12:15:48 ais523: I found the worst anarchy golf submission, ever 12:15:49 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Hello+OCaml 12:16:02 it is restricted to one language, except not 12:16:04 and in the language, 12:16:08 it has one obvious solution 12:16:10 which is also the shortest 12:16:15 you'd have to try harder to make it longer 12:27:54 ais523: why do people use exit(1) instead of abort()? 12:28:26 ehird: to distinguish their exists from auto-aborts elsewhere 12:28:29 *exits 12:28:37 it's often possible to tell which was used from outside 12:28:44 ais523: auto-abort? 12:28:46 e.g. abort works via a signal SIGABRT on many UNIXes 12:28:57 and on Windows, it exited with code 3 rather than 1, IIRC 12:29:04 "Claiming moderate-density FPGAs clocking at 1.5 GHz," 12:29:06 hawt 12:29:08 and, e.g. many C++ compilers will abort() if they hit an unhandled exception 12:29:17 well, their generated programs will 12:29:19 http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=blogpostPrint&blog_post_id=1040033304 12:31:34 thought: I'd like C more if I could put a typename before a variable usage and have it declare 12:31:44 (a generalisation of C99's special case for for) 12:31:52 e.g. instead of 12:31:53 XEvent ev; 12:31:53 while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &ev)) 12:31:55 I could do 12:32:01 while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &XEvent ev)) 12:32:08 ehird: what scope would the new variable have? 12:32:20 ais523: same semantics as when used in for 12:32:20 you could in Algol 68, incidentally, but its scoping rules were really complex as a result 12:32:23 so, they'd be identical 12:32:27 the two snippets 12:32:33 ais523: also, you could then remove declarations themselve 12:32:33 s 12:32:35 and in for, the semantics is 'the head and body of the for loop' 12:32:44 those don't generalise to anything but other looping constructs nad if 12:32:44 "XEvent ev;" would be what we now say as "XEvent ev; ev;" 12:32:47 *and if 12:32:50 and would obviously be optimised out 12:32:55 ais523: hmm right 12:33:02 well, function/block scope 12:33:04 basically. 12:34:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 12:36:34 ugh, drawing contexts 12:36:37 x11 sucks :P 12:41:42 hmm 12:41:48 why doesn't x11 treat button presses as keys? 12:41:51 seems like the obvious thing to do 12:44:08 #define ITER(x,n) int _##n; typeof(x) n; for (_##n = 0; _##n < ITEMS(x), n = x[_##n]; _##n++) 12:44:09 ↑ I can't decide whether this is neato or evil 12:44:10 probably evil 12:44:51 ais523: is ↑ evil? 12:45:42 ehird: yes, because C compilers aren't very good with unicode 12:45:54 ais523: hur hur hur 12:45:58 butsrsly 12:46:05 also, I think that sort of thing's a bad idea 12:46:14 especially, the prepending of underscores, that never comes to a good end 12:47:13 ais523: I am unlikely to name anything _key 12:47:32 you need to remember to only use lowercase variable names, though 12:47:35 so as to not end up in compiler namespace 12:47:56 ais523: I do that anyway 12:48:03 what, use compiler namespace? 12:48:09 only use lowercase names 12:48:33 beep beep 12:48:39 ais523: a better criticism is that __typeof__ is gcc only. 12:48:53 yes, there are plenty of others too 12:49:09 I suppose you think #define ITEMS(x) (sizeof x / sizeof x[0]) is evil too, right? :P 12:52:15 well I'm not getting the events I asked for, that's not good 12:52:53 hmm 12:52:59 * ehird drops his loops for some magical X-Macros 12:53:07 much more appetising! 12:57:53 hee, it works 12:57:57 compile time loops, yay 13:14:28 i just installed xscreensaver 13:14:41 my life, until I die, will henceforth consist of staring at all of these 13:14:46 so pretty 13:33:57 back at home 13:34:07 hi ais523 13:34:13 hi 13:56:25 I wonder how a user space program can "listen" for new usb devices under linux 13:56:35 polling isn't a good idea 13:56:58 due to wakeups and battery time 13:57:00 if you polled slowly enough, it wouldn't be that problematic 13:57:21 ais523, surely you should be able to subscribe to some sort of event notification 13:57:22 put it this way: a typical laptop has tens of wakeups a seocnd 13:57:28 inotify on /dev/? 13:57:32 whereas, there's no real point in checking more often than about once every five seconds 13:57:41 ais523, I got mine down to 4-5 per second with wlan off 13:57:46 15-20 with wlan on 13:58:21 ais523, and what about embedded devices? 13:58:51 even those have several wakeups a second, or sometimes won't even go to sleep 13:59:12 besides, why would they want real-time notification of USB plugins, anyway? 13:59:15 varies a lot, depending upon application I imagine 14:00:05 ais523, who knows. 14:00:20 anyway I think a laptop should be able to have a lot less than several wakeups per second 14:00:31 current software and hardware is just badly designed 14:00:50 (of course it will be more when you type or use the mouse or such, I mean when idle) 14:02:11 ais523, also stuff like ntp should be automatically stopped when you aren't connected to a network. 14:02:19 hm 14:02:36 this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event 14:02:37 becuase, yes of course, some wakeups, like those from ntp, are hard to avoid 14:02:42 and it uses no CPU until the event happens 14:02:56 ais523, a few things in current hardware do need polling though 14:03:07 but modern hardware seems to need less 14:03:48 ais523, for example, some modern cd drives has the ability to notify about media being inserted. Traditionally that hasn't been the case. 14:04:48 ais523, oh and mdns an such should be avoided. At university my laptop wakes up a LOT due to broadcasts from "auto discover" stuff from other computers on the wlan 14:05:34 * AnMaster wonders what "TLB shootdowns" in powertop is 14:06:11 ais523, and why on earth does gpg-agent and ssh-agent wake up every 20 seconds... 14:06:23 linking to a keyserver, I wonder? 14:06:39 ais523, I don't forward ssh-agent if that is what you mean 14:07:02 I mean, downloading new lists of public keys 14:07:06 and I haven't even used gpg yet this session so there is no data in gpg-agent 14:07:30 ais523, gpg-agent doesn't do that. It just remembers that you entered the password for the key during a few minutes before auto-locking it again 14:07:56 AnMaster: I mean, the other half of it, verifying messages 14:08:08 is it linking to public databases of public keys, so that it can tell who the messages are from? 14:08:35 ais523, well it has nothing to verify atm... so unlikely. Plus does verifying really use gpg-agent? 14:08:40 no idea 14:09:00 ssh-agent wakes up about every 20 seconds, gpg-agents about every 10 seconds 14:10:14 ais523, btw, how does one disable updatedb under ubuntu? 14:10:50 AnMaster: not sure, you could probably remove it from the crontab though 14:11:06 ais523, the system seems to use anacron, not sure how it works hm 14:11:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:11:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:11:28 same way as cron 14:11:34 -!- ehird1 has joined. 14:12:00 So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy? 14:12:15 Surely someone this time. :P 14:12:33 looking at the file in cron.daily: 14:12:36 chmod -x /usr/bin/updatedb.mlocate 14:13:14 * AnMaster waits for synergy to paste a extra copy of that while he is typing. Ah there it came... backspace... 14:13:17 Eh? Eh? How about you AnMaster? 14:13:27 really synergy is nice, but the copy-paste sucks 14:13:32 AnMaster: why don't you like updatedb? 14:14:10 ais523, I don't use locate a lot. Last time I used it on any system must have been over a year ago 14:14:13 thus I have no use of it 14:14:20 is this on ubuntu? 14:14:30 I use locate a lot, mostly aiming for libraries 14:14:40 If you're getting rid of everything you don't need on Ubuntu, you're Royally Missing The Point. 14:14:46 ais523: howsabout you help eh eh 14:15:02 ehird1, it is actually irritating me, system is slower when it is updating the db... 14:15:15 so I see it as a usability issue 14:15:16 ehird1: how? 14:15:31 ais523: err, clarify that question 14:15:40 ehird1, and where did I say I was getting rid of everything that I didn't need? 14:15:41 ehird1: as in, how do you think I can help? 14:15:53 I just disable those that I actually find irritate me :P 14:15:58 06:02:36 this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event 14:15:58 of course, at the software layer 14:16:08 lol if i say ehird 14:16:12 my imac bloops to tell me 14:16:14 ehird 14:16:15 ehird 14:16:16 ehird 14:16:17 that you just said ehird 14:16:18 tee hee 14:16:19 anyway 14:16:23 ais523: ? 14:16:36 it gets pretty silly when I'm logged in as both ais523 and ais523_, via different connections 14:16:43 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement. 14:16:47 yes, I know why it tells me, I just like it 14:16:50 ehird 14:16:56 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 14:16:58 most expensive single-function remote control EVAR 14:16:59 ehird 14:17:04 (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy? 14:17:09 is the help thingy 14:17:13 heh, that reminded me to register my other nicks 14:17:15 in case you didn't realise 14:17:17 *nick 14:17:26 I think my best course of action is to make an ARM debian chroot 14:17:29 ehird1: yes, and my comment was that I'm not sure how I could help 14:17:35 and work from there 14:17:47 making the custom boot thingy do my bidding into debian 14:17:50 ais523: any way! 14:18:04 ehird1, my point was it shouldn't need to poll stuff at all. Everything should work by "subscribing/listening" to events. 14:18:38 of course, there would be a few cases where it wouldn't work 14:18:43 AnMaster: that's not how electricity works 14:18:43 mostly when interfacing hardware 14:18:48 and so that's not how devices work 14:19:03 ehird1, sure is, devices cause an interrupt which wake up cpu 14:19:11 which is an event notification 14:19:20 AnMaster: you fail 14:19:25 ehird1, how so? 14:19:27 think about, e.g. mice and keyboards 14:19:37 they work by polling 14:19:37 ehird1, they cause interrupts. Didn't you know? 14:19:41 fundamentally, everything does 14:19:57 AnMaster: You don't know what the word "device" means. Discuss. 14:20:18 ehird1, well, in this case I guess it means keyboard controller hardware. 14:20:29 unless it is usb 14:21:03 Either you don't actually know how keyboards and mice work, or you're ignoring the obvious meaning on opurpose 14:21:04 ehird1, I'm talking about interrupts on the level OS has to deal with. Not on the level of wlan card listening at the radio signals 14:21:06 I suspect the former 14:21:08 or similar 14:21:21 ais523: mainly the help I'd need would be (a) setting up a debian chroot system and 14:21:28 (b) getting the boot up code to agree with that 14:21:48 AnMaster: I'm saying that polling systems are common because that's fundamentally How Shit Works 14:23:23 ais523: oh, and fitting it all in 1gb 14:23:34 ehird1, depends on what layer you are talking about. I agree with you on the low hardware level yes. But I'm talking about the level that would force cpu to poll. As opposed to specialised circuits on the board waking up the cpu by interrupts when they find something by polling. 14:23:37 although i have a flash card slot for 1gb of temp storage, I don't think the booter will boot into that 14:24:12 AnMaster: humans model higher layers basewd on how the lower layers work 14:24:24 that's why we have the notion of "program", for instance 14:24:28 ehird1, well see the examples of cd drives I gave above when I talked to ais 14:24:37 it's an internal taskswitching data strujcture, exopsewd as a concept 14:24:51 AnMaster: you're not listening to me 14:24:56 I am not justifying it, ffs 14:25:00 I'm telling you WHY 14:25:28 ehird1, it sounded like you were justifying it to me. But ok then. 14:25:55 Humans tend to model higher layers basewd on the internal details of the lower layers 14:26:15 Examples: "program" - internal task switching structure; "polling" - internal electronics model 14:26:20 Anyway you can avoid polling in a lot of cases. Certainly you can avoid it when it is different parts of the software that are interacting (instead of hardware and software interacting) 14:26:25 in a lot of the cases 14:26:36 do you delight in pointing out the obvious 14:26:54 i mean i didn't retalise this was #three-year-olds 14:26:56 ehird1, well. Looking at powertop output it seems it isn't obvious to a lot of people :/ 14:27:48 I think if you asked the authors why they did a polling model, they'd almost certainly have a cogent and reasoned justification of it. 14:28:03 Generally, maintainers of core linux infrastructure aren't *idiots*. 14:29:30 why for example is gnome-panel waking up every other second? And what about update-notifier? update-notifier is the thing that displays notifications in gnome iirc. A good design for it: listen on some socket/dbus thing/whatever, wake up when you get a new message. I mean there is even system calls like select(), poll(), epoll() and so on for it... 14:29:39 So, uhh, ANYONE want to volunteer to help? :P (unless I count ais523's query into the nature of the help as implicit agreement... which is admittedly tempting() 14:29:42 *) 14:29:49 AnMaster: read my last message. 14:29:55 (er, second last) 14:29:59 (ignoring correction) 14:30:05 also the one before that. 14:30:25 ehird1, hm... sec for a link 14:30:41 ...? 14:31:07 I'm not likely to click many links on this thing unless they're e.g. pastebins; it is a rather anemic machine and is running the uber-slow Firefox. 14:31:22 http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#knotify http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#mixer <-- two examples 14:31:29 ...but if you help me get a better linux on this that I can install a webkit browser from, why, I'll click a billion! 14:31:34 turned out it wasn't a very good reason in several of the cases at least 14:31:59 ehird1, is the X200 THAT bad? 14:32:16 Hahaha, this isn't the X200! 14:32:20 This is the root netbook thingy. 14:32:26 oh right 14:32:40 The X200, which I haven't bought yet, is as sturdy and powerful as any ThinkPad. 14:32:57 ehird1, btw, lesswatts looks like a quite light page to me. Can't guarantee that your notebook will handle it of course 14:33:03 but pastebin.ca is definitely heavier 14:33:17 Notebook is pushing it; one it works on my lap, two it's slower than my phone. 14:33:42 ehird1, since it sometimes pastebin.ca bogs down konq, while lesswatts could best be described as snappy 14:33:48 (Well, okay, it has the same RAM as my phone and a slightly faster CPU. But my phone has a bigger disk and does shit a lot quicker, due to the OS being designed for that.) 14:34:12 Mmf. My battery is low. Where is the cord? 14:34:20 I hope it's long. 14:34:26 heh :P 14:34:28 (I COULD JUST USE AUGUR'S HUR HUR) 14:34:44 ehird1, how long does the battery last 14:34:47 in that 14:34:47 will such jokes ever get old? 14:34:52 AnMaster: like 3hrs on full charge. 14:34:54 ehird1, yes, it is already old 14:35:12 otoh it only weighs 700 grams 14:35:32 ok, power cord is ridiculously short 14:35:38 hm 14:36:39 ehird1, oh btw, power cord of my thinkpad is quite short. well depends on what you compare to. But here I'm comparing to the distance between one of the nice sofas at uni and the closest power socket 14:37:10 Connected it. It is strained a little. 14:37:13 or rather, the socket on the laptop is on the wrong side for that. Should be on the right side, but is on the left 14:37:32 AnMaster: not a problem for me; it'll charge overnight 14:37:34 anyway 14:37:42 who wants to do some chrootin' bzns w/ me 14:37:49 bzns? 14:37:54 new, unexplored platforms of wonder and delight! LINUX! 14:37:57 AnMaster: business. 14:38:06 mhm 14:38:09 what is your goal 14:38:15 I could help set up gentoo in a chroot 14:38:16 ;P 14:38:27 AnMaster: does gentoo support arm 14:38:38 ehird1, think so. Not 100% sure. *looks* 14:38:42 AnMaster: if yes, does it support not taking 5 weeks to install on a 500mhz arm 14:38:46 ^ that's the important bit 14:38:56 oh, with 1gb of space 14:39:03 and 500mb to start with 14:39:09 since we're chrooting and the old distro is still there 14:39:26 /usr/portage/profiles/default/linux/arm/ exists, so yes 14:39:38 ehird1, depends on what you wants 14:39:39 as in, KDE? 14:39:45 or just base system 14:39:55 ehird1, and why not cross compile with distcc! 14:39:57 AnMaster: like, ratpoison. 14:40:05 also, because I'm sitting here, dammit' 14:40:10 s/'$/./ 14:40:13 ehird1, well ssh to your desktop? 14:40:15 and set that up 14:40:35 AnMaster: I don't know if ssh is set up on there; anyway, I'd like something in an hour or two 14:40:41 mhm 14:40:45 no idea about other distros 14:40:48 try ais523 14:40:54 how about ais523 can be the resident debian unexpert 14:41:04 and AnMaster can be the resident ubisurfer bootup unexpert 14:41:11 and I can be the typing keys unexpert 14:41:21 oh, don't forget trackpad moving and clicking!!! 14:41:22 ehird1, well I'm certainly no debian expert. And I haven't ever seen an ubisurfer 14:41:31 AnMaster: unexpert 14:41:39 also, almost nobody has 14:41:41 ehird1, how does it boot then? 14:41:45 openfirmware? 14:41:49 it's an obscure ubercheap product 14:42:05 AnMaster: it's ARM and has no facility to boot via any other media that I know 14:42:06 it uh 14:42:11 let me take a look 14:42:18 I know it has a /linuxrc binary, for one 14:42:27 also, booting up is just a splash screen, then linux starts 14:42:28 ehird1, eugh 14:42:36 you mean you are running from a initramfs? 14:42:38 or wait 14:42:40 is it initrf 14:42:42 initrd* 14:42:45 that uses that 14:42:46 forgot 14:42:51 I don't know 14:42:58 I doubt it's rAM 14:43:03 there's only 128MB to go around 14:43:06 ehird1, well /linuxrc is for initramfs or initrd, forgot which 14:43:19 at least... normally 14:43:24 could be some weird setup I guess 14:43:28 ok, there's an /selinux, somehow i doubt that is usewd 14:43:29 used 14:43:36 ehird1, what distro does it run atm? 14:43:38 prolly this thing was debian in a past life 14:43:41 AnMaster: custom shit 14:43:51 ehird1, ls /etc/*release* 14:43:54 anything? 14:44:04 no. 14:44:25 sec 14:44:36 ehird1, is there a command called lsb_release (far from all distros have that but worth a try) 14:44:42 what is the shortcut to copy from xterm 14:44:56 AnMaster: this thing uses busybox and runs on 1gb flash, so, no 14:44:57 ehird1, select text, paste with middle mouse button elsewhere? 14:45:03 what middle button :) 14:45:10 I want the thing whose inverse is ctrl-shift-insert 14:45:13 ehird1, whops. What browser then? 14:45:25 ehird1, ctrl-shift-insert? 14:45:26 huh? 14:45:30 .... 14:45:30 I never used that XD 14:45:43 AnMaster: browser? 14:45:45 ehird1, I *always* copy by selecting and paste with middle mouse button 14:46:04 ehird1, well I assume a netbook would have a browser. Like firefox, opera or whatever 14:46:27 possibly this is a pure telnetbook? ;P 14:46:29 Sure, it has the unholy abomination of GPRS-based compressed IE proxy etc etc 14:46:33 And also firefox. 14:46:36 Iceweasel. 14:46:38 So it's debian. 14:46:53 ehird1, hm... 14:47:04 But I just want to copy this 14:47:05 ehird1, lets see how else we could detect debian... /etc/alternatives? 14:47:10 Dude. 14:47:12 It's debian 14:47:22 It calls its browser iceweasel and uses its icon 14:47:26 hm right, but other distros use iceweasel too iirc 14:47:31 NOt the icon 14:47:40 ehird1, pretty sure arch linux did for a while at least 14:47:41 Now tell me the damn copy command :P 14:47:59 ehird1, I don't know of any way except select and middle mouse button. Sorry 14:48:19 google for me? I would, but uhh, 500mhz arm + firefox 14:48:29 well you could right click and select copy in konsole. but xterm hm 14:48:32 ehird1, sure, sec 14:48:44 ehird1, promise you will do that at least 20000 times for me? 14:48:44 ;P 14:48:54 Incidentally, cpu usage is 100% For doing audacious things like looking at pidgin and scrolling in firefox 14:49:07 ehird1, what process? top? 14:49:17 heh, it would be funny if top used 100% CPU 14:49:19 IceWM's cpu monitor 14:49:23 it would rather defeat the half point of it 14:49:24 Yes, it uses IceWM 14:49:37 ais523: just subtract 100 from the total, duh 14:50:25 ehird1, all ways I can find with google refers to middle click 14:50:34 ehird1, try both left and right at once 14:50:37 i did 14:50:40 maybe it emulates middle click 14:50:40 oh ffs 14:50:43 I'll just 14:50:44 cat to file 14:50:46 open in gui 14:50:49 XD 14:51:00 uname -a > /fuck 14:51:22 um, does this thing come with a text editor I wonder 14:51:26 fuck it, I'll use abiword 14:51:44 ehird1, I found some page mentioning a patch to make it use the ctrl-c/ctrl-v style copy/paste buffer 14:51:48 reassuring; abiword doesn't start from the command line 14:51:51 rather than the selection buffer 14:51:59 * ehird1 uses the menu, it works 14:52:03 i shudder to think what the menu item does 14:52:21 ehird1, is it gnome, or something else? 14:52:54 If you paid attention in class, you'd have noticed that a dfew lines ago, I said it was icewm 14:53:01 Funnily enough, it has not changed in the interim 14:53:12 ehird1, oh sorry, I was bussy googling for you 14:53:13 :P 14:53:20 busy* 14:53:45 fresh from abiword! 14:53:47 (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy? 14:53:49 ... 14:53:53 fuck x11 clipboards 14:53:57 XD 14:54:09 Linux pocketsurfer 2.6.21.5-cfs-v19 #342 Wed Jul 29 17:53:42 EDT 2009 armv5tejl unknown 14:54:17 cfs? hm... 14:54:25 that sounds familiar 14:54:30 (It doesn't actually have a hardware clock; I manually set it) 14:54:42 (Supposedly beforehand it was 1st jan 1970) 14:54:46 completely fair scheduler? But isn't that standard since ages 14:54:50 (This kind of broke certificates.) 14:54:53 AnMaster: filesystem 14:54:54 I think 14:54:57 like 14:54:58 for flsah shit 14:55:04 or whatever 14:55:06 no idea 14:55:08 hm 14:55:11 -!- impomatic has joined. 14:55:16 ehird1, look at /proc/mounts 14:55:36 yaffs2 14:55:42 heh... 14:55:49 why heh 14:57:57 GREAT< MY CAPS LOCK IS ON WHETHER I HIT THE KEY OR NOT 14:57:57 DESPITE THE INDICATOR CHANGING oh wait it was just holding down shift, if i press shift it stops heh 14:58:09 anyway 14:58:11 eh 14:58:17 ehird1, you forgot your finger was on shift? 14:58:18 or what 14:58:20 any kind soul want to find a link to some sort of debian arm page? 14:58:27 AnMaster: no, the keyboard forgot it wasn't. 14:59:04 ehird1, so are you prepared to say sorry for everything you said? ;P 14:59:10 then I can be the kind soul 14:59:16 otherwise I don't think so ;P 14:59:21 what, everything ever? 14:59:28 including that thing about the goat? 14:59:30 ehird1, everything negative about me. 14:59:31 I don't forgive that 14:59:35 That goat was a nasty little bitch 14:59:44 AnMaster: The goat was a previous life of you, I'm sure 14:59:52 * AnMaster closes the debian arm port page 15:00:39 AnMaster: Why were you such a dick as a goat, just answer me that 15:01:06 ehird1, I'm afraid you confused me with someone else there. 15:01:08 Fiiiiiiiiiine 15:01:13 You're boring :P 15:01:18 does that count as nwegative 15:01:19 ehird1, that goat was clearly my evil twin 15:01:21 clearly 15:01:29 i said goat 15:01:31 not goatee 15:01:34 * ehird1 rimshot 15:01:36 ehird1, oh okay 15:01:52 well, I never been a goat as far as I know so can't answer that 15:01:54 anyway 15:02:04 does that count as nwegative <-- no idea about "nwegative" 15:02:42 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 15:02:44 jsndjkasndjksndkjasndkjnasdknaskjdnjkndkasnjknfjksdnf 15:03:25 could i just kinda have a link plz :P 15:03:52 what is a "link plz"? ;P 15:04:08 ehird1, plus even on that slow computer, googling would have been faster. 15:04:17 i realise that now. 15:04:41 ehird1, but seriously, you seem to be so rude most of the time I see no reason to help you. 15:04:44 *shrug* 15:05:06 you're just trying to drag this on :P 15:05:09 not right now indeed, when you want help, but yesterday for example, and quite a few times before then 15:05:29 btw, I'm not rude, I'm honest. 15:05:55 ehird1, unlike your mom 15:06:14 Oh, snayou know what I bet it's debian.org/ports/arm 15:06:18 http://debian.org/ports/arm 15:06:21 wait 15:06:27 i dont have clickable urls 15:06:31 fucking fuckshit! 15:06:41 ehird1, no idea, closed browser several minutes ago. but it was on debian.org iirc 15:07:00 it worked 15:07:02 ehird1, how long would it take to type that url into the browser then? *shrug* 15:07:03 also why are you helping 15:07:15 AnMaster: i have copy paste tho 15:07:57 ehird1, helping? You mean saying on debian.org? Well I said I had the official page for the port open, about half a screen above... 15:08:05 ugh, that has no release links 15:08:07 so, where else than debian.org? 15:08:18 maybe there's a #debian-arm 15:08:38 ehird1, you seem to be a slow typer on that netbook as well... 15:08:43 (15:07:23) You have been kicked by ChanServ: (Invite only channel) 15:08:51 ^_^ 15:08:52 AnMaster: keyboard is woefully small, and keys are oddly placed. 15:08:56 ehird1, oh right 15:09:04 ehird1, debian is on oftc iirc? 15:09:14 moved from freenode some year ago or so 15:09:16 possibly two 15:09:18 #debian exists here, arm might be skdjfhskfhksjfsdkjfskdjsdkfsf i'll just do it myself 15:09:24 ehird1, isn't that ##debian? 15:09:34 don't caaaaaaare 15:09:46 which mean it isn't official 15:09:53 so well yeah it would explain things 15:10:26 "Setting up a Debian chroot under Red Hat" 15:10:28 close enough 15:10:32 XD 15:11:20 debootstrap is x86 only i bet 15:11:24 what time is it? 15:11:26 AH 15:11:28 ER 15:11:36 AB 15:11:36 ah 15:11:36 15:10 15:13:12 16:13 15:13:19 hmm, debootstrap needs binutils? prolly just for ar 15:13:21 16:11:36 15:10 15:13:24 fun :P 15:13:34 off by a minute 15:13:40 or so 15:13:46 i did set it manuallh 15:13:50 vgom mh iphonr 15:13:52 from mh 15:13:54 my 15:13:56 oh ok 15:14:06 ehird1, what cpu does iphone use? 15:14:07 arm? 15:14:18 architecture all? guess its a shell script 15:14:20 AnMaster: yeppers 15:14:40 hey i have bash 3.2 15:14:41 wonderful 15:16:53 ehird1, oh? I thought you said busybox 15:16:59 plus 3.2? OOOOOOOOLD ;P 15:17:05 4.x FTW 15:18:37 it has busybox too 15:18:44 grrr, it either wants perl or a c file compiled 15:18:49 maybe debian has a package 15:22:36 i have make but not gcc 15:23:02 man but no nroff 15:23:08 a comedy of errors 15:24:29 indeed 15:24:48 ehird1, what about groff or troff? 15:24:55 nope 15:24:58 * ehird1 reads the man page with vi 15:25:04 busybox vi, naturally 15:29:51 who wants to help me rewrite some perl in shell :P 15:30:19 ehird1: perl - << EOF? 15:30:32 ais523: on a machine that does not have perl. 15:30:32 or is that cheating? 15:30:40 also, busybox. 15:31:05 LTERNATIVELY 15:31:14 anyone on a system with easy cross compilers? 15:31:29 I gots myself a single source file here that could use some static compilation :P 15:31:30 ehird1: if something's set up properly with auto-tools, I have an ARM toolchain here 15:31:37 ehird1, gentoo, if you are prepared to wait while it builds 15:31:37 snap 15:31:42 that has built C-INTERCAL without issue 15:31:49 AnMaster: ais523 beat you with INSTANTLY 15:32:01 ehird1, indeed 15:32:07 ehird1, because he had one ready 15:32:09 while I don't 15:32:13 I would have to install it 15:32:18 which I wouldn't have done anyway 15:32:30 https://sources.bit.nl/viewvc.cgi/bit-pxe/linux/debootstrap/pkgdetails.c?view=log should be basically recent enough, ais523 15:32:42 a static compiled ARM ELF of that should work, if it works on ubuntu 15:32:46 since i have debian here 15:32:54 thanks if you do do it 15:33:03 I'll try 15:33:06 ehird1, first write Makefile.am and configure.ac! 15:33:08 ;P 15:33:08 first, I have to remember where the toolchain actually is 15:33:14 it's something like 8 levels deep in my directory structure 15:33:48 what's the gcc option for static compile? 15:35:29 ehird1: it compiled, I think 15:35:45 $ file a.out 15:35:47 a.out: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped 15:36:15 looks good 15:36:19 and here it is: http://filebin.ca/uvwnk/a.out 15:36:21 how big is it? 15:36:42 358569 15:37:04 bytes, presumably 15:37:19 doesn't get much smaller if I strip it 15:37:26 also, I suspect it's linked against uclibc 15:37:34 not that that really matters, probably 15:37:57 but it's a lot larger than I expected 15:38:14 is that 3.5mb? 15:38:22 .35 mb 15:38:28 ah, that's okayh 15:38:42 3.5mb wouldn't be; i only have about 500 of those things spare 15:39:51 now how to get that url into oh ill just we bbrowse it 15:42:31 fun fact; there's an ethernet port but it does nothing 15:42:37 I'm not entirely sure it has ethernet drivers 15:42:55 ais523: your binary runs1 15:42:56 ! 15:42:57 thx 15:43:09 ehird1: well, I know it's capable of working 15:43:16 on my machine 15:43:17 but the buildchain for /that/ buildchain was a rather tenuous one 15:43:35 it consisted of makefiles which downloaded things, including other makefiles, with wget 15:43:39 and the dependencies were all wrong 15:43:52 it's not like all ARMs are teh same 15:43:53 the 15:44:04 I had a little shellscript that invoked the relevant bits in the right order, deleting things if necessary 15:44:06 woot, debootstrap --help works 15:44:13 also, that gcc was built as 'arm-linux-gcc' 15:44:20 without specifying what version of arm 15:44:25 (or of linux fwiw, but that's less important) 15:44:48 so my guess is, it's designed to port to as many arms as possible 15:45:26 is debootstrapping! 15:45:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:45:51 maybe I should send you an ARM build of C-INTERCAL, to see if it works there? 15:47:09 how about after I've replaced this carp with debian? 15:47:59 fair enough 15:48:23 ais523: and then I can just sudo apt-get install intercal ;-) 15:48:31 heh 15:48:42 that wouldn't be cross-compiled, though 15:48:47 it'd have been built on native ARM 15:49:00 so? :P 15:49:16 anyway, it's working out dependencies at the moment 15:49:23 so this seems quite working 15:49:27 which is a pleasent surprising 15:49:29 pleasant 15:50:40 is this the incredulous feeling you have when you do something complicated involving build processes and it just works first time? 15:51:01 yes, although it hasn't actually done anything platform-specific yet 15:51:13 aprat from download the arm packages 15:51:20 *aoart 15:51:26 \8apart 15:51:30 **apart 15:52:19 ****apart? 15:52:34 "Jesus fucking Christ with this arcane academic toy language bullshit" //- someone tell all the embedded folk to sotp using forth 15:52:38 it's a toy language turns out 15:52:48 woot, it''s downlaoding packagis 15:52:51 most langs have a use 15:53:55 yes, forth's is (a) being a toy language, (b) being in a shit ton of embedded devices and (c) being usewd in nasa flight control software 15:54:06 but mainly (a), if you go by reddit commentors 15:54:24 I suppose some langs are better toy langs than others, as well as being practical 15:54:46 it's obvious that toy language was meant as a childish insult in conte 15:54:49 xt 15:55:39 ais523, did you intentionally misunderstand what ehird1 said there? XD 15:55:53 no, I'm just trying to think about the problem in an unusual way 15:56:00 hah 15:56:07 although, it would be more fun if NASA wrote their flight control software in INTERCAL 15:56:24 that'd be a good way to cut government spending 15:56:41 first off, a lot more failures -> less launches 15:56:49 secondly, every astronaut chickening out -> extra $$$ 15:56:57 then, just slash the excess budget! 15:57:16 et voila! now we can afford the stimulus. :P 15:57:57 what stimulus? 15:58:27 AnMaster: how's your rock this time olf year 15:58:30 a bit chilly? 15:58:40 might wanna uh, crawl out? 15:58:45 ehird1, err. is that innuendo? 15:58:51 oh maybe not 15:59:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 15:59:20 yes, AnMaster. economic innuendo. 15:59:30 ehird1, what rock btw? 15:59:39 after all we can't go around with excess innuenSHOT 15:59:50 AnMaster: the one you live under 16:00:19 it's extracting allt he packages, neato 16:00:40 ehird1, hm wood based house 16:00:56 no AnMaster 16:01:01 you live under a rock. 16:01:38 ehird1, well, I guess you could say that when the moon is right above... 16:02:04 does chroot inherit net connections? 16:02:13 ehird1, mu 16:02:26 more helpfully? 16:02:36 ehird1, your question doesn't make sense. 16:02:48 ehird1, connections are connected to the programs that opened the sockets 16:02:52 answer the one i should have asked, then 16:02:52 chroot is another program 16:03:00 ehird1, do you mean network settings? 16:03:01 that is not what a net connection means 16:03:09 copy resolve.conf if you want dns to work in the chroot 16:03:14 /etc/resolv.conf I meant 16:03:18 (drop the e) 16:03:25 (that is, the second one) 16:03:35 ehird1: if you meen a pre-existing connection, I think you can pass one into a chroot if it's on an open descriptor when the chroot is created 16:03:44 although it won't have a sensible filename, just a number 16:03:49 ais523, well yes that too 16:03:58 i wonder how easy it'll be to merge the chroot with the vital stuff from the existing system 16:04:04 ehird1, but that is not "inherit" 16:04:09 to produce a hideous chimera of debian and fucked up debian 16:04:12 err 16:04:13 ais523, ^ 16:04:24 ais523, since chroot() doesn't cause fork 16:04:32 or anything similar at all 16:05:01 installing core packages, woop woop 16:05:06 it's all working and shiznit 16:08:25 -!- Deewiant has joined. 16:10:07 AnMaster: you like eizo displays right 16:10:42 ehird1, hm? I don't bother about which brand it is. Just if the monitor is good or not 16:11:14 ehird1, and seriously, no current monitor gets even close to the results you can get by printing. Sad but true 16:11:14 i sseem to remember you saying that they were the officially defined standard post for the others 16:11:17 like, in some standard 16:11:44 AnMaster: I dunno man, H-IPS with that filter thing and automatic colour calibration must come pretty damn close 16:11:49 apart from dpi 16:12:10 and of course, manual engraving and other simular technologies can get a DPI which is way way higher than anything a printer can manage 16:12:20 ehird1, it isn't only colours and such 16:12:24 it is dpi too 16:12:31 yeah, dpi is a problem 16:12:44 ehird1, colours is a worse problem though 16:12:48 eizo has like a 130dpi display iirc, which is depressingly close to the top 16:12:51 some laptops have 150dpi 16:12:58 ofc those ibm ones have lots of dpi 16:13:05 and are ips 16:13:09 but perhaps not quite as good ips 16:13:21 a 600dpi display would be bliss 16:13:42 ehird1, also what I think I said was that NEC monitors are very often used for reference monitors in tests. Guess you could say that is a de facto standard 16:13:47 ...i type from an uber-cheap shitty matte TN 7" display with god0awful colours :) 16:13:56 AnMaster: no, I definitely read eizo 16:14:03 they make the standard or something 16:14:16 ehird1, iirc eizo make some very good ones too. But I don't think I said that about standard 16:14:22 thought you said it, oh well 16:14:35 the top eizo ones are like $6,000 16:14:38 ehird1, I want a monitor able to produce any pantone colour. Of course that won't ever be possible 16:14:46 since that includes glossy/matte and such 16:14:50 ever? 16:14:56 Do you really want to commit to "ever" 16:14:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:15:05 ehird1, well. maybe not 16:15:11 I can imagine a display that can do both glossy and matte 16:15:18 ehird1, and metal colours? 16:15:21 I mean, realistic 16:15:33 Sure, why not, just come up with a metal display 16:15:35 ehird1, like a shiny golden surface that actually looks like gold 16:15:37 and add it as another layer 16:15:50 Nothing ridiculously sci-fi, I imagine 16:16:29 AnMaster: consider that I think it's possible to make a computer where you can create a glass table, touch it, feel it, and feel it cold 16:16:33 ehird1, and the range. utter black and intense white. Next to each other. With no bleed over 16:16:33 (through peltier and other stuff) 16:16:37 and that means really intense 16:16:41 like, daylight 16:16:51 AnMaster: uhh, you can do that in print? 16:16:54 not like looking directly into the sun, that would be, err useless 16:16:56 I wanna see this magical glowing whiteness 16:17:06 ehird1, err I didn't say that 16:17:16 isn't pantone for print 16:17:18 I was talking about my wishes for monitors in general. 16:17:27 well, sure 16:17:32 I think monitors, long-term, suck 16:17:35 ehird1, yes indeed. But pantone is one item in the list. Good light levels is another 16:17:42 by the itme we can do the stuf you want, we should be using VR 16:17:42 hope that makes it clear? 16:17:49 ehird1, yeah :( 16:17:53 there's at hign recently, put something on your lips 16:17:53 er 16:17:54 tounge 16:17:57 and 16:18:00 it sends signals to youir brain 16:18:02 making yous ee things 16:18:09 experimental thing like for people who are blind 16:18:12 read it on engadget recently 16:18:19 shit like that has way morpotential than displays 16:18:21 brb 16:18:37 ehird1, anyway, you can't just produce some colours on monitors. I want a very wide gamut monitor, with enough bits per pixel to make it usable for small gamuts too (otherwise you loose details) 16:18:43 ehird1: it's about 5x6 pixels, but apparently that was enough to let blind people see again (albeit poorly) 16:18:44 so maybe 32 bits per channel per pixel? 16:18:55 could be a slight overkill 16:19:00 but definitely 16 bits per pixel at least 16:19:04 err 16:19:08 per channel per pixel 16:19:08 AnMaster: I can't even tell 16bpp from 24bpp 16:19:15 that's bits per pixel, not bits per channel per pixel 16:19:18 ais523, not with a small gamut duh 16:19:27 I meant, for wide gamut monitors 16:19:36 and if you're going for large gamuts, go for all the dimensions of colour 16:19:41 like, Adobe RGB Wide Gamut or something 16:19:45 as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess 16:19:49 or even full LAB one 16:19:53 that would be awesome 16:19:58 so you can make part of the screen mirrored, and another half scatter ambient red light but glow blue 16:20:18 as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess <-- mentioned above. Search for "pantone" 16:20:30 oh you don't mean like that 16:20:33 brb phone 16:21:11 yep, pantone only does about 2 or 3 channels, you need about 10 to properly describe colour to the precision with which humans see it 16:21:16 and more still if going for other sorts of vision 16:23:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:30:12 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:33:29 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:35:45 back 16:35:49 it installed the base system 16:37:10 NO NEED TO COPY resolv.conf theya re the same 16:37:11 chroot time 16:37:27 great success!!!!!! 16:37:39 yep 16:37:42 'sall there 16:38:23 hey ais523, AnMaster 16:38:28 celebrate! 16:38:43 * ais523 considers saying w00t 16:38:47 but I don't actually really know what it means 16:38:49 so I'd better not 16:38:56 seems to be a common celebration, though 16:38:57 ais523: "yay" but stronger 16:39:09 it originally came from "wow, loot" or something in some game apparently 16:39:22 oh, there are lots of conflicting stories of where it comes from 16:39:52 we owned the other team is what i've heard 16:40:30 "Whoot" was originally more common, I think, so I doubt that one 16:40:33 the other team is the team of not having debian work 16:41:31 when was originally? 16:42:02 Whenever I first started hearing wh?(oo|00)t 16:42:12 Mid-late 90s? 16:42:13 apt-get moo works 16:42:16 ^_^ 16:42:29 i'm amazed how simple that wAS 16:42:32 okay that was ages before i even had good internets 16:43:01 "apt-get update" works 16:43:13 we have owned the other team 16:43:16 basically i just need to make sure the hardware will work, then drop this into the above system 16:43:25 keeping the bootup code etc 16:43:26 that would be pretty catchy 16:43:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 16:43:45 hey 16:43:48 hi GregorR-L 16:43:49 i stopped beeping! 16:43:51 cool :D 16:43:52 we're doing stuff with arm 16:43:53 Moop. 16:43:57 oklopol: i was jus tabout to say XD 16:43:59 literally 16:44:06 right after greg joined 16:44:11 oklopol: why did you start 16:44:17 -!- M0ny has joined. 16:44:19 err 16:44:23 i don't know 16:44:39 caveat: the internet in the debian is slow for some reason 16:44:41 i was reading computational geometry, and i suddenly felt like i was a wave 16:44:45 then i wanted to beep 16:44:47 on all channels 16:44:50 like really 16:44:55 hmm 16:44:57 oklopol: sounds cool 16:45:05 hi 16:45:27 i think i almost fell asleep, tend to get all kindsa weird feelings then 16:45:33 gawd so slow, is it the us mirror maybe 16:46:34 US sucks lawlz 16:47:08 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 16:47:49 GregorR-L: I've installed a debian chroot inside a mangled debian that runs X11 as root 16:47:54 and it worked first time 16:47:58 (this is on ARM, naturally) 16:48:13 I don't see why it wouldn't *shrugs* 16:48:41 GregorR-L: you know how it is with el cheapo devices running funky platforms 16:48:58 anyway, next I'll extract the system replacing its parent 16:49:01 but keeping the bootup code 16:49:25 ais523: could you look up the address of the debian mirrorservice mirror? sorry... firefoxv is just painful here 16:49:26 Then just keep doing that over and over again. 16:49:36 and kinda chicken-and-egg to install w3m 16:49:45 GregorR-L: Xzibit? Is that you? 16:49:56 ..........................???????????????? 16:50:04 O_O 16:50:08 Yo dawg 16:50:22 ..........................???????????????? 16:50:32 http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/ 16:50:35 GregorR-L: crawl out frolm under that rock 16:50:44 I like this rock. 16:50:44 but that seems to be a page about it 16:50:47 It's warm and cozy. 16:50:54 I can't find the actual entry to give to apt 16:51:09 hmm 16:51:19 ah, http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/sources.list.sample.ukms.txt has the required sources.list entries 16:51:21 presumably a subdomain of mirroresrcviceo.org 16:51:31 ais523: could you copy theo ne for lenny main? 16:52:16 "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/ sarge main non-free contrib" is the example, I suspect replacing sarge with lenny works 16:52:26 that doesn't include the volatile or security repos, though 16:52:42 ftp://www.? 16:52:48 apparently so 16:52:50 * ehird1 slow clap 16:52:53 it seems people have forgotten what the www is for 16:53:02 for machines,a ctually 16:53:06 it makes sense to have one machine for web and ftp 16:53:12 but really, it's all pointless nowadays 16:53:12 "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/security.debian.org/ sarge/updates main contrib non-free" should probably also be in the sources.list 16:53:14 lern2roundrobin 16:53:16 to get security updates 16:53:21 ais523: all debootstrap does is main 16:53:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:53:39 to start 16:53:41 volatile's for stuff like virus scanners, you probably don't care about it 16:54:00 how is that volatile 16:54:03 quickly updating? 16:54:14 yes, it's things that are updated every few days 16:54:17 or faster 16:54:30 isn't clamav updated multiple times a day? 16:54:38 prolyl 16:54:46 i wonder why the net in the chroot is so slow 16:54:56 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 16:54:56 likem, 6301B/s 16:55:06 oh 16:55:07 300kb 16:55:07 there we go 16:55:55 aaaaaand its uber slow again 16:56:16 but the red network thingy in my bottom right is maxed out 16:56:20 so the host is having the same problemn 16:56:36 ah, there wego 16:57:10 methinks installign sudo and making a user for myself is the best next step 16:57:23 heh... I clicked "log out", got "You have been automatically logged out due to inactivity, please log in again to proceed" XD 16:57:33 :D 16:57:41 bet they didn't think of that race condition 16:57:47 ehird1, indeed 16:58:04 just goes to show why software is utterly impossible to make :) 16:58:11 yeah 16:58:20 just make log out succeed even if not logged in 16:58:22 ehird1, so why is everyone trying so hard? Would it be better to give up? 16:58:47 no, computers have great potential. 16:59:08 we just need to give up our rabid devotion to backwards compatibility 16:59:22 like 80% of the work in computing caters to the 20% of dinosaurs 16:59:24 what is interesting is that it special-cased "logged out due to inactivity" from other "not logged in" status 16:59:27 statuses* 17:00:10 the fact thta computing is largely driven - entirely in fact - by what makes the most money from the uninformed consumer doesn't help 17:00:12 17:00:20 ehird1, you could reduce that to maybe 50/50 by simply dropping x86 17:00:34 how come the percentage of dinosaurs grew 17:00:38 that makes no sense :P 17:00:38 not supporting x86 gives a good excuse to break backwards compat 17:00:48 ehird1, err I thought it was 80% dinos 17:00:48 but I can't think of any other good reason for it 17:00:54 ehird1, but yeah, to 10% then 17:01:01 ER RIGHT 17:01:05 OOPS 17:01:08 no im right 17:01:09 :P 17:01:24 ehird1, ER = e are? 17:01:29 so yes I'm right 17:01:30 always 17:01:33 but really, a high-level, single-namespace (no memory/disk distinction), garbage collecting, bignum-supporting, graph-reducing CPU... 17:01:47 i would sacrifice up to seventeen babies. 17:01:57 ehird1, would not be popular with the java programmers. Or most other either 17:02:00 maybe eighteen 17:02:01 so yeah, nice dream 17:02:07 AnMaster: nothing stopping me making it 17:02:08 hmm... the logical next step up would be a really good JITting compiler in hardware, inside the CPU 17:02:11 but not going to happen soon in any case 17:02:12 ehird1, cost? 17:02:13 I can do most of that in FPGAs 17:02:17 ais523: no, no, no 17:02:22 ais523: HIGH-LEVEL chip 17:02:32 yes 17:02:37 the compiler should be doing parsing, structural optimisations 17:02:43 yep, good point 17:02:44 and then writing thato ut almost directly as machine code 17:02:48 you'd feed in something like LLVM bytecode 17:02:53 no 17:03:04 you'd feed in something like a simplified version of the language you write apps in 17:03:21 the bridge between the low-level swamp of the cpu and the high-level bliss is one we made up 17:03:26 that looks sort-of like decompiled java? 17:03:43 ehird1, what about if you want to use another language. Say, if you are a scientist developing a new, and even better, language 17:03:47 much the same but with all the loops replaced with while loops 17:03:48 and no comments 17:03:56 ehird1, it sounds that would run rather slow then? 17:04:01 ais523: high level loops could make for interesting branch prediction 17:04:05 yes 17:04:10 AnMaster: a few things: 17:04:30 if it is tied so directly to a specific high level representation 17:04:32 one, I don't buy into the distinction between OS and language, and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic 17:04:46 this stems quite a bit from the fact that I know what can be done if you unify them 17:04:47 AND 17:04:52 ehird1, so you basically suggest vendor lockin 17:04:53 right 17:04:55 because I don't think programming should be a distinct activity from using 17:04:55 ehird1: doesn't that imply there's no difference between hardware and language? 17:04:57 AnMaster: no 17:05:05 that's not a reasoned arughment 17:05:09 ehird1, yes that is the extrapolation of what you suggested 17:05:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:05:22 AnMaster: your kernel hsa all sorts of things built into it 17:05:25 party, oerjan! 17:05:29 you don't consider them vendor lockin 17:05:33 ehird1, yes, but I can run another OS easily on the machine 17:05:35 while: 17:05:40 "and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic" 17:05:47 oklopol: norwegian communist party 17:05:50 sounds like you suggest that shouldn't be possible 17:06:04 which leads to vendor lock-in 17:06:25 AnMaster: you know, you have never once adopted a position on computers other than the conservative, I}-think-things-aret-good-how-they-are-no-different-distinctions-and-boundaries-for-me, and you continually use strawman arguments to get to these 17:06:32 I am done with talking to you about them. 17:06:49 ehird1, um. I'm pretty sure I wanted to drop x86 for example. And go for something better 17:06:52 my attitude is to let ehird do all the groundbreaking research while I work with what's possible right now 17:07:03 AnMaster: that's not any sort of revolutionary attitude 17:07:04 that's just 17:07:10 oh, I'd like a slightly better instruction set 17:07:11 ehird1, can you explain how it is NOT vendor lockin, based on what you said above 17:07:13 you THINK you want a revolution 17:07:15 butw hen it comes to it 17:07:20 you simply deny all changes 17:07:20 and no 17:07:22 I said I'm done 17:07:24 and I' done. 17:07:35 ais523: the instruction set would map pretty directly to the language 17:07:45 if you parse it, do some structural optimisations, and simplify it a bit 17:07:54 translation: ehird realised the flaw I pointed out exists, and won't admit it. 17:07:58 it'd be perfectly possible to read through the machine code ofa high level application 17:08:12 AnMaster: you can continue having fun with strawmen all you like, I don't care whaty ou think 17:08:18 but if you think I havent considered the issues 17:08:22 you're laughably ignorant 17:08:39 i have, upon reasoned ponderance, decided the issues are not real if viewed with a perspective that produces superirop results 17:08:50 ehird1, yet you refuse to explain them. Trying to avoid the issues. Looks suspicious... 17:08:56 and, I will say this only one more itme, 17:09:23 you have not once accepted an arguhment. you constantly toe the party line of hardware and software, conservative, while claiming to want something better: you don't wabnt something fundamentally better 17:09:28 just somethign better in the same ballpark 17:09:37 no amount of hours of arguing will ever change this and i know this from a hurge sample size 17:09:38 ehird1, nice strawman yourself :P 17:09:43 I am not interested in this any more 17:09:46 I am done. 17:09:50 oerjan: you part of it? 17:10:01 ehird1, indeed a very nice straw man you ended with 17:10:10 well done. You must feel so proud. 17:10:41 i'd ignore AnMaster, but the change wouldn't stick on my other client 17:11:00 so I'll just mention it instead, to annoy him 17:11:01 anyway 17:11:09 ehird1, I'd ignore you. But that would breal 1/3 of the convos in here 17:11:38 oklopol: ah no 17:12:36 it's just we're in the middle of the election campaign here 17:12:42 part of what 17:12:51 oerjan: what will you be voting on? 17:12:54 although _that_ party stands no chance of getting any seats 17:13:42 oerjan: you part of it? <-- s/t/ty/ 17:13:45 oh communism 17:13:49 fun 17:13:51 oerjan: will you vote for me? 17:13:53 ais523: already voted 17:13:53 but the _other_ communist party might get a couple 17:14:02 oerjan, the other? 17:14:04 ais523: hmm 17:14:04 oerjan: ah 17:14:07 oerjan, what one 17:14:08 the security updates for lenny 17:14:08 what's the election about, anyway? 17:14:12 don't seem to be complete 17:14:14 no contri]b and non-free 17:14:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:14:20 ehird1: interesting 17:14:22 there aren't any contri]b and nonfrees security updates are there>? 17:14:26 and the third party which any _american_ would call communist, is what i voted for ;D 17:14:28 I don't think there are 17:14:29 ehird1: how can I tell? 17:14:37 ais523: look at the US mirror? 17:14:38 ond ebian.org 17:15:33 what would it show me? 17:15:33 hm 17:15:35 maybe i typod 17:15:36 I don't know where to look 17:15:43 ais523: well, security.debian.org, I guess 17:15:46 ais523: i voted in advance, at the library 17:15:52 in lenny/updates 17:16:13 oerjan: So, socialist? Or just "fairly liberal"? 17:16:16 AnMaster: "Rødt" might get a couple of seats 17:16:20 * ais523 wonders if the leftmost mainstream american party is less left than the rightmost mainstream party in say, the UK or Norway 17:16:23 ond ebian.org hm maybe i typod <-- yeah, due to quantum you can never be sure ; 17:16:24 ;P* 17:16:27 socialist, definitely 17:16:38 oerjan, hm ok 17:16:39 but not revolutionary any longer 17:16:48 So you're just making fun of Americans' inability to distinguish socialism from communism then :P 17:16:51 oerjan, som svenska Vänstern? 17:17:14 AnMaster: maybe, it's Sosialistisk Venstreparti 17:17:16 ais523: the UK is pretty much to the right of any scandinavian country 17:17:23 apart from the lib dems 17:17:23 oerjan, socialdemokrater? 17:17:31 no, that would be the labor party 17:17:33 who are, like, actually sane 17:17:38 oerjan, hm right 17:17:39 ehird1: all the UK parties are all over the place 17:17:41 (arbeiderpartiet) 17:17:43 it's hard to tell who is to the left or right of who 17:17:45 and would place center in scandinavia, i think 17:17:53 ais523: well, labour is arguably more right-wing than conservative atm 17:17:56 at least on social issues 17:17:58 AnMaster: not that some americans would not call that communist as well 17:17:59 yes 17:18:05 You people and your more-than-two-party politics :P 17:18:07 hmm... I've been voting conservative at every election 17:18:17 I'm not sure whether I'd prefer the conservatives or lib dems 17:18:18 (they were, 80 years ago or so) 17:18:18 i'd vote lib dem if i could 17:18:18 oerjan, indeed 17:18:31 but in my constituency, the libs have no chance of winning, and I know all about tactical voting 17:18:42 GregorR-L, lets see... 7 parties in the Swedish parliament 17:18:51 (I voted Green in the EU elections, though; yay for proportional representation) 17:18:52 ais523: in norway, the conservative side is a shambles now 17:19:00 I had a dream about a bizarre sort of ... school class, writing in a US presidential vote 17:19:06 it was sort of like a cavern thing ... anyway, 17:19:13 who was your write-in vote? 17:19:16 i wrote in dennis kucinich, with joe biden as the vp for some reason 17:19:23 (we got to choose both, I guess) 17:19:31 oerjan: in the UK, Labour are so unpopular atm that people will vote for more or less anyone to replace them 17:19:47 ais523: OR WILL THEY WHEN THE CCTV IS WATCHING THEM 17:19:57 mostly previously strong labour people are voting for the Liberal Democrats, as they can't stand the thought of voting Conservative 17:20:09 conservatives are still right-wing socially 17:20:19 they're just not _completely_ off the deep end yet 17:20:19 people tend to vote for the Liberals in by-elections a lot, because it means they can vote Liberal without accidentally letting them into power 17:20:24 ais523, liberal democrats? 17:20:30 is that right or left of labour? 17:20:31 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:32 AnMaster: the UK's third party 17:20:35 left 17:20:37 right 17:20:37 much much left 17:20:40 no 17:20:40 AnMaster: everything's mixed with everything else 17:20:41 left 17:20:48 you people and your three-party-system 17:20:53 it doesn't make sense with less than 5 17:20:55 ;P 17:21:00 ais523: yes, but the lib dems want to abolish winner-takes-all voting, for chrissake 17:21:01 although labour are so right-wing atm, it would be hard for the liberals to be even further right 17:21:02 nobody wants to do that 17:21:12 ehird1: the libs do, as it would give them a better chance of getting in 17:21:20 ais523: er, no, (wrt right wing) 17:21:22 see the US 17:21:32 ehird1: I mean, for a UK political party 17:21:35 the democrats are to the right of labour and conservative 17:21:43 apart from CCTV 17:21:51 where they're positively hippie communists 17:21:53 the BNP manage to be to the right of labour, but I don't think you'd get many votes over there in the UK 17:21:58 you are intentionally confusing me right? 17:22:06 ais523: the bnp finished 5th in the recent european elections 17:22:08 didn't they 17:22:20 (The BNP are pretty awful, btw: everyone hates them due to their immigration policies, and their other policies are pretty bad too) 17:22:32 ehird1: yes, they advertised heavily in a couple of areas and got two seats out of it, the same as the Greens 17:22:43 AFAICT, they want to make Britain into a police state 17:22:44 the bnp is just a party of nationalist racist fucks without any unifying policy apart from "we hate other people" 17:22:48 and sort of advertise that openly 17:22:59 well, at least they're honest 17:23:06 no, they claim not to be racist. 17:23:12 ooh, i remember a ukip tv ad recently 17:23:15 they never once mentioned bnp 17:23:19 though it was hinted at all the itme 17:23:21 choice quote - 17:23:39 "[despite supporting our racistp olicies,] don't be swayed into voting for an extremist party" 17:23:48 ...so I agreed with him. I won't vote for ukip! 17:23:55 ukip is who you vote for if you like the BNP's general position on the political spectrum, but hate their actual policies 17:24:05 er, their policies are basically identical 17:24:11 ehird1: norway used to have winner-takes-all voting, until the labor party came about and the other parties swiftly changed it because they would be wiped out otherwise... 17:24:12 UKIP is sort of like BNP except smiling instead of shouting 17:24:15 unfortunately, such people are probably quite hard to come across; I'd much sooner vote UKIP than BNP, though, but I'm very unlikely to vote either 17:24:20 (also about 80 years ago) 17:24:24 ehird1: does the UKIP have their own private police force? 17:24:32 ais523: do the bnp? 17:24:33 which the real police have to follow around to make sure it doesn't get out of hand? 17:24:35 ehird1: apparently 17:24:36 that's awesome! :P 17:24:38 (when it was communist) 17:24:53 I'm going to start the People's Communist Party of Russia 17:24:55 as a UK party 17:24:57 also, I doubt the UKIP is as rabidly in favour of conscription even outside wartime as the BNP is 17:25:07 so I feel to play a snes game. Which should I pick: Secret of Mana or Zelda: A link to the past? 17:25:09 we support nationalising everything into the russian government 17:25:13 :D 17:25:39 anyone? 17:25:48 AnMaster: you gave it 32 seconds, dude 17:25:58 Zelda sucks, pick SoM 17:26:02 ehird1, well yeah, I'm going to have to decide myself soon 17:26:08 Deewiant: whut 17:26:11 did you just say zelda sucks 17:26:12 Deewiant, zelda doesn't suck, so discarding that... 17:26:19 both the mentioned games are good 17:26:21 * ehird1 attempts to install w3m to load the security archive page 17:26:25 I just can't decide which one atm 17:26:35 gawd, is so slow 17:26:42 20% package luist scanned 17:26:44 after seconds 17:26:48 this takes <1s on my desktop 17:26:52 I never liked the Zelda games much 17:26:53 20% package luist scanned 17:26:54 stutpid 500mhz arm 17:26:56 luist? 17:27:00 list 17:27:01 package lust 17:27:04 it is a gay operating system 17:27:10 Packages are male? 17:27:12 it lusts for package. 17:27:22 Deewiant: ahem 17:27:23 package 17:27:26 ehird1, nah they are lesbian 17:27:28 Oh, right 17:27:33 "package" 17:27:52 ehird1, unaware of that euphemism 17:27:53 you know what, i should check the security pageson my iphonwe 17:27:59 on account of it not making me want to shoot things 17:28:07 Deewiant, well then I'll discard your opinion. Since clearly it is too far from my own 17:28:13 if you hate zelda 17:28:22 AnMaster: rand() 17:28:48 hey, you know, the magic is that debian's actually buzzing along happily in its chroot 17:28:54 ehird1, or zelda oot in mupen64plus? 17:28:56 Why ask people for differing opinions if you're going to ignore them :-P 17:28:56 h 17:28:57 hm* 17:28:58 i just need to surgically extractit 17:29:00 ^help 17:29:00 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 17:29:08 ^show 17:29:08 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 17:29:21 oh wait bool doesn't work when selecting between three 17:29:22 computers are fun, despite sucking 17:29:22 meh 17:29:24 i am quite a fan of them 17:29:40 AnMaster: yes it does 17:29:44 3 = two bits 17:29:53 so do two bools 17:31:11 ehird1, that gives four choices, what if I get the fourth one, clearly it can't be assigned to any of the other choices, that would be unfair 17:31:15 "retry"? 17:31:16 reroll 17:31:20 hm 17:31:29 assuming a uniform distribution it's still random 17:31:30 ehird1, that has a worst case of infinite time 17:31:38 AnMaster: yes, it does. 17:31:47 so does continuing your tedious conversation 17:31:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:31:52 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:31:52 but you're doing it 17:31:53 ehird1, :D 17:31:54 t 17:32:04 actually I decided with a local program 17:32:10 it's secret of mana 17:32:14 lol, boehm gc needs /proc/stat 17:32:23 silly boehm, /procs are for ... kids? 17:32:31 ehird1, bind mount /proc in the chroot 17:32:51 AnMaster: how, I don't have man 17:32:56 although i have the man pages, I think 17:33:08 ehird1 or just mount it... 17:33:22 wait, i could use the child's manpages 17:33:24 :D 17:33:30 mount -t proc proc /path/to/chroot/proc 17:33:33 that would work 17:33:33 or 17:33:42 mount --bind /proc /path/to/chroot/proc 17:33:43 as well 17:33:46 if it isn't mounted 17:33:50 mount /proc worked. 17:33:54 from inside 17:34:02 ehird1, if it is in fstab it would work 17:34:14 ehird1, you might need to mount /dev too for other stuff 17:34:15 and /sys 17:34:28 yuh 17:34:48 /dev is already there 17:34:53 mounted sys though 17:35:06 how, todo: 17:35:08 *now 17:35:11 check security thing 17:35:13 upgrade everything 17:35:18 add user after installign sudo 17:35:22 AnMaster: obviously it is impossible to get something with exactly 1/3 probability from a finite sequence of uniformly independent random bits 17:36:11 oerjan, hm true 17:36:18 you only get spaces of size 2^n, and no subset can contain a third of those points 17:36:31 ais523: I think the armel port doesn't get binary security updates 17:36:33 oh well! 17:36:45 (the proof was totally needed.) 17:36:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:36:52 oerjan: hmm right, i misthought 17:37:08 anyway, fun time soon 17:37:14 when we tackle the booting 17:37:26 and surgically extract the child debian 17:37:45 (you don't need special drivers for console and keyboard right? even on arm) 17:37:58 and i guess it has the sata or whatever drivers built in? 17:38:06 wait, that's in the kernel right 17:38:07 hmm 17:38:14 so I'll need to install a kernel or use the existing one 17:39:49 they need to develop a sata2 protocol, and then a sata3 17:40:17 so that after a while, people can was what satan is up to 17:40:24 *+ask 17:40:42 there is a sata2 :P 17:40:48 and i think sata3 is being worked on 17:40:53 yay! 17:41:14 next we need the sant protocol 17:41:19 and name it alphabetically in reverse 17:41:22 santz, santy, ... 17:41:54 "chroot /debian su ehird" works 17:41:57 squee 17:42:07 and sudo works 17:44:40 so who's bored enough to take a look at the bootup system with me 17:46:13 eh eh eh 17:46:16 ais523? :P 17:46:42 ehird1: that isn't even worth answering 17:46:49 ais523: whyever not 17:47:00 btw, why are you running a chroot, rather than just replacing the OS? 17:48:02 ais523: because a chroot is easy to get working first, and I don't think debian has the bootup code 17:48:23 so I'm getting it working (done), then extracting it into the upper system 17:48:26 overwriting it 17:48:30 but keeping the bootup stuff 17:53:03 ais523: so! I think that the three pertinent files are /linuxrc, /config.data and /splash.bmp 17:53:12 I think linuxrc contains the kernel, it's certainly a binray of some sort 17:53:16 *binary 17:53:20 there's a .bmp file in the root directory? 17:53:22 wow 17:53:52 ais523: yes. it is the bootup splash screen 17:54:09 "UBISURFER: The Ubiquitous Surfer" 17:54:11 very catchy. 17:54:12 they should have found somewhere else to put it 17:54:27 like where 17:54:30 semper ubi sub ubi 17:55:28 -!- oklokok has joined. 17:59:09 -!- ehird1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:59:54 -!- ehird2 has joined. 18:00:02 what did I miss? 18:00:26 nothing 18:00:43 «18:52:34» {oerjan} semper ubi sub ubi 18:00:45 «18:53:32» « join » {oklokok} {n=oklopol@a91-153-117-223.elisa-laajakaista.fi} 18:00:47 «18:57:14» « quit » {ehird1} {n=root@91.105.65.31} Read error: 113 (No route to host) 18:00:49 «18:57:58» « join » {ehird2} {n=root@91.105.65.31} 18:00:51 «18:58:06» {ehird2} what did I miss? 18:00:54 I got the ubi thing 18:00:56 ais523: I fingerpoken and mittengrabben and did "./linuxrc" 18:01:01 in a terminal 18:01:09 it went to teh desktop for a second as X died 18:01:13 it displayed the splash 18:01:17 and went through normal bootup 18:01:30 now, it appears almost instantly after pressing the power button 18:01:30 interesting 18:01:35 and is the first thing displayed on screen 18:01:36 I didn't realise kernels were executable... 18:01:43 so I gather that /linuxrc is at least the kernel 18:01:49 and perhaps the bootup 18:01:57 ais523: they aren't usually, I don't think 18:02:05 also, a name ending 'rc' normally indicates a config file 18:02:08 I'm scared that running it in rootspace somehow put it in kernelspace 18:02:13 that is one weird setup 18:02:27 ais523: it's used by initramfs for the same purpose or skdjfghnfkjghbndfsk\jhdfkg whatever 18:02:36 so I'm going to install a kernel package in debian 18:02:45 and see if it makes a similar file 18:02:55 if not, we need to retrofit this debian on to that kernel 18:03:43 this is fun :) 18:05:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:06:38 but what a bizarre kernel that executing it in userspace resets the system to it... 18:07:21 exactly what I was thinking 18:07:29 what does running file on it say? 18:07:59 ehird2: linuxrc is ran before init, if booting from an initramfs. 18:08:07 I don't *have* file, but I'll install it in debian and run it outside of the chroot 18:08:16 pikhq: then where would my kernel be? 18:08:21 ...I'll ask /sys/kernel 18:08:24 /boot/ 18:08:54 pikhq: Doesn't exist, man. 18:09:09 Then your kernel does not exist. 18:09:16 * ais523 considers using a Feather-OS, and hotswapping init 18:09:23 and getting a different set of services that have been running all along 18:09:52 pikhq: You assumec x86. 18:11:26 Fine, then. /vmlinux ? 18:11:41 Nope. 18:11:46 Hint: It's /linuxrc. 18:11:57 No, it's not. 18:12:03 I know this because I executed it and it reset my system with a splash screen. 18:12:10 pikhq: you are wrong because this is not initramfs 18:12:14 -!- oklofok has joined. 18:12:23 pikhq: but fine, do point me to the kernel 18:12:28 ehird2, the Linux kernel itself is not executable. 18:12:29 hmm, is it in ROM? :P 18:12:44 (unless you're using UML?) 18:12:47 ehird2: incidentally, my guess was right; my arm-linux toolchain is /exactly/ 8 levels deep in the directory hierarchy 18:13:30 -!- oklopol has quit (No route to host). 18:13:42 pikhq: i'll ask file what linuxrc is 18:14:03 An ELF file. 18:14:22 /linuxrc is just /sbin/init for lamers. 18:14:51 pikhq: yes 18:15:07 GregorR-L: Hmm, does Linux try /sbin/init, then /linuxrc? 18:15:12 * ais523 half-expects it to be a.out format, given how weird this system seems to be 18:15:24 no, elf 18:15:25 pikhq: Something like that, I don't recall *shrugs* 18:15:33 ehird2: stripped? for the right CPU? 18:15:40 how can i find out where my kernel is? 18:15:45 ais523: yes 18:15:48 ehird: Ask your bootloader. 18:15:50 statically linked 18:15:52 dunno abou tstripped 18:16:02 GregorR-L: I don't have one, THIS IS A FUCKED UP ARM PLATFORM 18:16:08 ehird2: it would be so spectacularly great if you could run it under gdb 18:16:11 If I could just go oh hey grub whatcha booting don't you think I would 18:16:17 ais523: I think it's juwst init 18:16:21 That'd explain how it can run in userspace 18:16:26 * ais523 wonders what gdb /sbin/init would do 18:16:33 but doesn't dare try it 18:16:55 ehird2: A) every ARM platform I've ever used has had a bootloader, but then they haven't been "fucked up", B) if you don't have a bootloader to read the kernel from a disk of some kind, then the kernel /must/ be burnt to PROM. 18:16:58 wow, I have two inits running 18:17:05 it ... nested? 18:17:12 * ehird2 's mind is blown 18:17:12 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:17:26 ehird2: ok, that is mindblowing 18:17:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:18:03 would it be worth more or less permanently breaking your system by putting init in your init.d 18:18:05 GregorR-L: It boots up immediately into the splash screen that /linuxrc gives 18:18:07 and no key does anything 18:18:09 and creating an init forkbomb? 18:18:15 and I can't find any relevant files 18:18:17 so /shrug 18:18:18 ais523: no :P 18:18:20 anyway 18:18:23 ehird: That just means it's a very boring bootloader ;) 18:18:25 let's find my kernel 18:18:28 it's gotta know where it is 18:18:35 GregorR-L: so i can't ask it :P 18:18:38 surely linux knows where itself is 18:18:43 Why? 18:18:54 GregorR-L: how do i ask it then 18:18:57 If there is a bootloader, then Linux certainly doesn't know where it came from. 18:19:14 And if there isn't, well, at some point it must have made it into memory, so it's detached from its original location. 18:19:57 In short: Poke around until you (don't?) get lucky, because /sys is not your friend in this case :P 18:20:07 ooh, idea: you know how RAM loses its data when it's turned off? 18:20:25 there's probably some way to make it go specifically to 0, or to 1, at power-down 18:20:29 GregorR-L: Worst-case, I just implant the debian ignoring the kernel 18:20:32 and have it use the existing one 18:20:35 so, you could have a system which just starts with RAM in a particular state 18:20:41 in other words, it loads up already booted 18:20:45 like unhibernating, but even faster 18:21:00 heh 18:21:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 18:21:35 hmm,w ait 18:21:36 guys 18:21:39 I HAVE init 18:21:42 it starts init 18:21:46 the plot thickens 18:21:52 linuxrc can't be an init replacement 18:21:56 because i have both 18:22:00 what do you say to that pikhq?! 18:22:01 and init is a different binary, not a symlink or hardlink/ 18:22:09 if i just start init it tells me it's busybox init and sits there 18:22:11 doing nothing 18:22:21 it's /sbin/init 18:22:34 proc 1'scmdline says init 18:22:37 so it's being used 18:22:52 did you know that init never actually starts; it sort-of platonically comes into being 18:23:14 it isn't loaded, it just gets created in an already-loaded form 18:24:16 so anyone know where my kernel might be? pikhq, wise guy? :P 18:25:57 ais523: jackpot? 18:26:10 /lib/arm-linux-gnueabi 18:27:21 ooh, is a folder 18:27:34 an emoty one 18:27:36 empty 18:27:38 fuck. 18:29:05 -!- oklokok has quit (No route to host). 18:30:15 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:31:17 ais523: will any logs or dmesg point you think? 18:31:38 who knows? 18:32:12 :P 18:33:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:34:41 ais523: wtf there aer other pratitionsw 18:36:57 "no such device or address" if i try and mount em >_< 18:37:32 this is ridiculous 18:37:40 how many places can you hide a kernel 18:40:36 ais523: armv5tejl with gnueabi 18:40:39 that is what this kernel is 18:40:48 wherever it is... 18:42:14 ais523: this arch seems to require softare emulation of floats, heh 18:47:33 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 18:48:11 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:48:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:50:42 * ehird2 backs up system to sd card 18:50:45 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:52:17 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:52:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:57:52 sd cards are slow 18:57:58 -!- olsner has joined. 18:59:29 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:03:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:07:41 -!- oklokok has joined. 19:08:12 -!- oklofok has quit (Connection timed out). 19:16:08 ehird2: found your kernel yet? 19:16:26 ais523: backing up to the SD, slowly 19:16:32 then I'll perform intensive surgery 19:16:32 also, very strange that someone would mknod partitions that don't exist 19:16:41 indeed 19:16:50 it's as if, why bother? 19:17:15 they also made /mnt directories for sda,sda1,sdb,sdb1,sdc,sdc1 19:17:20 despite that having no relation to the partitions 19:17:23 all /dev/sda* 19:18:10 it's like kafka, the linux distribution 19:18:32 :D 19:18:48 at least it has processes 19:18:55 and bugs 19:18:56 the verdict of the trial is that you're to be left alone with your root account and it 19:19:05 and you will inevitably enact your own punishment upon yourself 19:19:27 the bad news is, it turns _you_ into a bug if you leave it on overnight 19:19:46 someone should mash up all of kafka's books together 19:19:57 hideous monster beetle on trial for ... something to do with amerika 19:20:12 also, all lovecraft 19:20:14 make it slapstick 19:20:24 cthulhu in your face 19:20:25 "Hey Cthulhu! Not lookin' so unique now, are we? Ha. ha. ha." 19:20:37 "Shut up." 19:20:42 cthulhu! the musical! 19:20:45 "Heyy, court's starting!" 19:20:48 oerjan: <3 19:21:02 that would be so perfect 19:21:06 probably atonal music 19:21:12 nooo 19:21:14 jolly broadway 19:21:20 cthulhu fhtagn! cthulhu fhtagn! 19:21:25 means no worries for the rest of your days? 19:22:00 your very, very short days 19:22:15 http://www.cthulhulives.org/musical/cdinfo.html 19:22:26 there is nothing new under the sun 19:22:41 ehird2: on the other hand, I'd imagine you'd be full of worries 19:22:42 okay wait, kafka+cthulhu+bat boy 19:22:46 it must be done 19:22:51 ais523: you got my reference right. 19:23:16 right? :P 19:23:34 probably not 19:24:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:25:58 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 19:27:48 ais523: :( 19:27:50 it was quite good 19:27:55 also very famous 19:37:25 i hate icons 19:45:49 -!- ehird_ has joined. 19:46:19 -!- ehird1 has joined. 19:46:47 d'i miss qantfhing? 19:46:54 from "probably not" 19:47:02 ehird1: yes, but you said it 19:47:12 :P 19:47:13 nothing said by anyone else 19:47:16 also, ehird_ joined 19:47:28 qantfhing the horrible 19:52:57 fjkbndbkgdjbhnfkgjnbdfjklbnfkgjhbfnfdjklghbndnjkgbnldfkgnjbghldfkgjbngsjkldfbnerilughbnseruighnhjbierudfjfjghiwerujkgjgnfhiwerulfioklrfhuiojklrfwedhrrsdgryhsdlghgsdswerdfghgsg 19:55:04 you can say that again. but probably not without cutting and pasting. 19:58:17 so slow 19:59:30 time dilation gets you every time 19:59:51 unless you stay perfectly motionless 20:00:03 but then you may have other problems 20:00:16 dfdf 20:02:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:03:06 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:03:07 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 20:03:12 -!- ehird2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:06:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:09:41 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 20:13:26 this is getting annoying 20:16:29 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:22:17 moop foop buzzingdoop 20:25:08 a boop noop goop 20:31:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:31:41 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:46:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:47:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:51:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:51:50 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:53:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:10:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:11:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:28:10 -!- M0ny has quit. 21:29:33 bjbjjhbbjhbjhjhbjbh 21:29:37 ehird 21:29:39 ehired 21:29:41 ehird 21:33:11 etired 21:34:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:34:15 -!- cmeme has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:34:15 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:34:15 -!- nescience has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:34:15 -!- AnMaster has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:34:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:34:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:34:59 -!- dbc has joined. 21:34:59 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:34:59 -!- nescience has joined. 21:35:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:47:22 wdcnejruidfkgvnrtgntjkrnetjhbghn34tgnrkjhrkbghnerbnkbnjktrybnktj34nbjkrlgjkghbntkljbn 21:47:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("mi co'a sipna"). 21:49:24 ehird1: wow, you actually managed to spell that correctly 21:49:49 ais523: nkep 21:50:37 hmm 21:50:55 copying all of / including /dev /mnt a nd /proc 21:51:01 not a good idea?a 21:51:57 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:21 ais523: qi have a feeling such files are stalling this backup 21:52:27 heh 21:52:42 it's probably waiting on stdin 21:53:09 (I made that mistake on normish, when I tried to scp /var/www) 21:53:09 ais523: should i \6c\/ 21:53:13 ^c 21:53:21 may as well 21:53:24 it wsant stdin btw 21:53:38 ais523: but it has been going since about 7\;30pm 21:54:50 :(= 21:55:11 ehh 21:55:22 I'll just cp /dev/hd /mnt/sd 21:55:35 foolproof 21:55:53 no? 21:56:06 is the hd smaller than the sd? 21:56:27 i'll check 21:56:46 ais523: alas, tens of megabytes bigger 21:57:07 ais523: but not all used ofc 21:57:46 ais523: fses wont store at the end of a hd will they? 21:57:47 using tar will probably work better, then 21:57:52 it was invented for that purpose, more or less 21:58:15 ais523: yes, but you fail to realise how colossally SLOW this thing is 21:58:20 the copying took hours just to copy 300mb 21:58:22 literal 21:58:25 multiple hours 21:58:32 backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then 22:00:02 -!- ehird_ has joined. 22:01:04 -!- ehird2 has joined. 22:01:16 what dvivlast say 22:01:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:01:20 whatd you last see 22:02:05 * ehird2 decides to use a usb sdtick instead 22:02:07 ais523: ? 22:02:16 backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then 22:02:23 multiple hours 22:02:48 i'm going to try a usb stick, which should be bigger and faster than SD cards 22:03:25 after that? 22:03:29 Ruthless OS surgery time. 22:03:33 I'ma pimp this debian up. 22:04:01 I wonder why this thing comes with a chess prorgam. 22:04:07 Doesn't exactly scream "netbook". 22:06:01 why is chess anti-netbookish? 22:06:50 mycroftiv: well, you have, like 22:06:52 web browser 22:06:55 email 22:06:55 chat 22:06:57 ... 22:06:58 chess 22:07:05 ... 22:07:08 word processor 22:07:10 spreadsheet 22:07:14 photo gallery 22:07:17 music player 22:07:40 kind of doesn't fit in, you know? odd for something that's primarily marketed as "You can get on the internet anywhere" 22:07:55 esp when strapped for disk space 22:08:29 hmm, i think there is consumer demand for always at least some kind of game/solitaire entertainment and chess is probably what they thought was the lightest and easiest to add, so it seems reasonable to me 22:10:15 but im pretty ignorant about the general netbook scene, i find full-size laptops to be unusably small to begin with :( 22:10:17 mycroftiv: are you confusing notebooks and netbooks, perhaps? 22:10:23 no 22:10:37 chess seems trivial even within the context of netbook storage constaints 22:10:50 I really don't think the target market of this thing overlaps much with the group of people who would like a chess game alongside their internet-based + computing staples stuff 22:10:51 if at all 22:10:59 it just seems odd to me 22:11:01 it's more likely to be speed that's the sticking point with netbook chess, not anything else 22:11:04 Solitaire I'd understand 22:11:21 everyone loves solitaire, it's trivial to play casually and it's in accessories menus everywhere 22:11:30 and chess is standard on both Windows and Ubuntu nowadays 22:11:42 but i don't see a lot of people going around the place, catching up with friends and family and then having a nice in-depth game of chess with the computer, you know? 22:11:45 ais523: nah, my apple ][ chess programs from the 80s were plenty good to beat anyone who doesnt actually *care* about chess 22:11:51 ais523: sure, but ubuntu comes with all sorts of games 22:12:41 but then this thing's browser works by sending compressed screenshots of IE running on servers that proxies your interaction to the page with the server 22:12:49 ehird2: /screenshots/? 22:12:49 so there's clearly some sort of altered mind state involved 22:12:55 ais523: yes 22:12:57 how do they handle, say, links? 22:13:00 and JS? 22:13:06 I would have thought compressed HTML would work better 22:13:20 they advertise java support 22:13:30 also, rendering and JS in firefox on this thing are dog slow 22:13:35 ais523: links, you click one and it works 22:13:39 ehird2: you arent actually serious in what you just said are you? it doesnt actually run a web browser on remote servers, does it? 22:13:40 i guess it proxies all mouse events, except 22:13:45 if you click a text field 22:13:49 you get a gtk text field 22:13:52 which after confirming 22:13:57 goes back to the server's windows text field 22:13:58 mycroftiv: yes. 22:14:02 mycroftiv: with active-c 22:14:06 active-x 22:14:08 I shit you not 22:14:24 wow, i am clearly way behind the times, that sounds totally insane 22:14:24 I am tempted to, ahem, root one of them thar boxen. 22:14:32 mycroftiv: don't worry, it is 22:15:05 sounds like you can be very confident about the privacy of your web browsing, definitely. 22:15:33 i think they saw opera mini, which proxies all requests but then simply pre-layoutises and parses the HTML, compresses the images, and shoves it back in a hyper-compressed format -- a perfectly sane model -- and misunderstood it entirely when they saw compression artifacts on the images 22:15:53 -!- ehird1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:15:56 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:15:56 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 22:15:59 bye bye ehird1 22:16:02 hi ehird 22:16:23 -!- ehird2 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:18 -!- ehird1 has joined. 22:20:29 pressed control and del by mistake 22:20:30 alt 22:20:32 what did i miss 22:20:51 also mycroftiv i'm replacing the OS, wihch runs everything as root, includi8ng X, with a more sane debian 22:20:55 4 minutes of brilliant science 22:21:02 sincei t's a crazy debian-based ARM thingy, this is non trivial 22:21:03 ehird1: i.e. nothing 22:21:04 conducted telepathically 22:21:09 I've made a chroot debian 22:21:22 now i need to surgically extract it into the host 22:21:28 keeping the host booting code playing nicely with it 22:21:36 after backing up my current system on here for when i fuck things up 22:22:40 ais523: the sdas are for usb sticks. 22:22:46 aha 22:23:32 i wish the fucking usb stick would stop blinking at me 22:23:36 yes. I know you are there. 22:23:40 stop distracting me 22:23:48 does cp on devices work 22:23:59 or will i have to do cat /dev/root >/mnt/sda1/foo 22:24:23 eh, I'll try 22:24:37 ais523: I can mount this directly afterwards when it's done, right? 22:24:40 like, loop or whatever 22:24:41 mouint 22:24:43 mount 22:24:48 yes 22:25:11 and cp on devices doesn't work, it copies the device not its contents 22:25:22 ok, df tells me about /dev/root. which doesn't exist 22:25:30 just fills me with confidence 22:25:59 I'd put debian on the usb stick, 'cept i doubt the booter will agree 22:27:03 pressed control alt del by mistake // how does one accomplish this feat? :P 22:27:39 ais523: will writing to the disk while this cat runs break shit 22:27:45 ehird1: who knows? 22:27:49 i guess so, but my system obviously doesnt know tht 22:27:50 oh well 22:27:55 GregorR: cleverly 22:28:09 wait a sec, why am i even bothering with this, i can just move stuff to a subdirectory 22:28:13 * ehird1 facepalms slightly 22:28:18 * ehird1 lets it run anyway 22:28:25 GregorR: but really, by playing with keys 22:28:26 ehird1: is that like, balancing your hand on your head gently? 22:28:42 ais523: it's a facepalm, but you only do the 4th dimensional bits 22:28:45 not the other 3 22:28:51 basically you do nothing for a second 22:28:53 :P 22:30:05 26mb backed up already, fuck this shit for now 22:31:29 ok, righmt 22:31:41 time to examine /debian 22:32:07 hmm 22:32:14 i know that linuxrc will execute /sbin/init 22:32:27 so that should work 22:32:50 ais523: theoretically this should all work fine 22:32:59 shall I risk it? 22:33:18 no idea 22:33:19 worst case this thing is bricked until i can open it up and get at the HD 22:33:31 let's go for it 22:33:41 ok, first, time to relocate the existing system to a meager subdirectory 22:34:02 -!- Azstal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:34:15 surprisingly, moving /lib doesn't break things. 22:35:07 It shouldn't break anything that's already running, but moving anything else after you've done that would probably be tough .. 22:35:20 No, commands are still executing. 22:35:38 Anyway, when I move /usr/lib I can just set LD_LIBRARY_PATH. 22:36:38 -!- ehird1 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:36:38 Yeah, but /lib contains /lib/ld-linux.so :P 22:36:47 Haw 22:43:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:48:51 -!- Asztal has joined. 23:05:09 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:14:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:21:47 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:21:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).