< 1250812812 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: really, I like it here. it's my country, after all. < 1250812819 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not _everyone_ is a fat idiot < 1250812822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sentence reeks of patriotism < 1250812827 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..and? < 1250812846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never understood the fetishization of an accident of geography... < 1250812853 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just geography, it's the culture too < 1250812867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I find it very hard to comprehend the culture being good < 1250812877 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever been here for an extended period of time? < 1250812885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1250812893 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. then obviously you won't understand the culture :) < 1250812908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's true. I have a basic grasp on some other countries' culture. < 1250812916 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watching Hollywood movies does not make one an expert on American culture, despite what 80% of Europeans seem to think < 1250812924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"80% of Europeans" < 1250812931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered how hypocritical you just were there? < 1250812942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't met a single person who would claim that < 1250812947 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. I've been to Europe for an extended time, interacted with many Europeans, and learned the culture < 1250812964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you must have gone to bizarro europe < 1250812966 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, fine, I was exaggerating for effect with the "80%" figure < 1250812970 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"many" Europeans < 1250813003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that linked to euopean...ity? I'd say it's more idiocy. < 1250813006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people, indeed, are idiots < 1250813015 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, many people are idiots everywhere, in any country < 1250813026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1250813047 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and European idiots tend to think that listening to a Nirvana album and seeing the entire "Die Hard" series makes them an expert on American culture < 1250813081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you a farmer? Because you sure do have a lot of strawmen < 1250813090 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1250813101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dayum that was good < 1250813138 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good cultural point: Americans are generally much more egalitarian and less snotty than Europeans < 1250813151 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously making gross generalizations) < 1250813159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, seriously? < 1250813165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is this your impression? < 1250813168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard that before < 1250813173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No. < 1250813192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, for chrissakes, the predominant culture in the US is "Yay freedom, guns, liberty, fuck everyone else, capitalism!" < 1250813201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My impression is that Americans are generally much more antiïntellectual than Europeans. < 1250813210 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that is emphatically *not* the "predominant culture" in the US. come visit sometime. < 1250813217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you can dispute this, but unless there's some sort of global web filter distorting EVERYTHING coming from the US on the internet, you're wrong) < 1250813228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Where did you live in the US? < 1250813244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, rather, do live. < 1250813247 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: for extended times in Pennsylvania, Florida, and California, and I've visited many other places < 1250813256 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you? < 1250813269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't deny that a lot of american people are fine < 1250813274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true for every country < 1250813281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for people that actually have opinions on it < 1250813283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, with some time in Massachussets. < 1250813300 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think the anti-intellectualism is a broad Anglo-Saxon thing. English people are also markedly anti-intellectual relative to others. < 1250813311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The English culture is self-loathing. < 1250813315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple as. < 1250813324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sucks, but what can you do. < 1250813331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :England doesn't really count as European, politically. < 1250813331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Exception, BNP. < 1250813334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or culturally < 1250813340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's self-loathing too. < 1250813345 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the Engish perception of an average professor is (description quoted from an actual Englishman) "an awkward fellow with a stack of books and soup on his tie who can't carry on a normal conversation" < 1250813353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am aware. < 1250813355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems more like general loathing. < 1250813365 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: so no fair calling out Americans as anti-intellectual :P < 1250813367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I talk about European culture, I don't really include the UK < 1250813372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't like this place < 1250813381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Loathing is not a simple emotion of rage and hate, oh no. < 1250813419 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 25 < 1250813429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK seems less crazy than the US. < 1250813446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... In much the same way that Mormons seem less crazy than Scientologists. < 1250813447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The self-loathing is sort of like a seething, dripping putrid liquid from the crevices of our darkest points, gradually strangling and restricting the blood flow of our brain in its ignoramus hold, destroying our thoughts and gradually leading to complete hopelessness that can't face the impending total oblivion it faces. < 1250813455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It truly is an amazing thing. < 1250813476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although, of course, you won't find it on the streets, etc; because there isn't really any general culture; but if we only include interpretations that lead there to be one, this would be it) < 1250813477 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: wow, you must love H. P. Lovecraft < 1250813494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: haha, i haven't read much of his stuff but i do like what i've read a lot < 1250813515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rush Limbaugh, I got billed $6,000 just to have a broken arm set." "Well, you shouldn't have broken your arm, should you?" < 1250813543 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Rush Limbaugh is considered a far-right wing extremist by the vast majority of the population of the US. < 1250813568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is some new definition of vast majority of which I was not previously aware. < 1250813573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area? < 1250813581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: I would like to take this opportunity to point out that about 20% of the US population is far-right wing extremists. < 1250813637 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I live in San Francisco, which is far-left by US standards (which brings its own set of problems, such as the nauseating fetishization of identity politics), but I lived in the deep south (Florida) and the industrial northeast (Pennsylvania) for long periods of time too < 1250813648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far right wing extremists... don't you guys call that the republican party :) < 1250813656 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 20% sounds about right. 80% counts as "vast majority". < 1250813668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1250813673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80% is a large majority < 1250813678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: About 24% of Americans identify as "Republican", and 30% as "independent". < 1250813683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90%/10% is a vast majority < 1250813689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Only 24%? < 1250813694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1250813711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This doesn't show up in *voting* because we have truly terrible voter turnout. < 1250813716 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there are 2 broad factions in the Republican party, the "gun nut / religious right" and the "business elite Rudy Giuliani types". they don't like each other, but they worked together for a long time until recently. < 1250813721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less than 50%, generally. < 1250813724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yeah but they both suck :) < 1250813730 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the business ones are not nearly as crazy < 1250813740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right wing economics is scary. < 1250813746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has far-reaching social implications. < 1250813756 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: for example, the business types couldn't care less if you're gay or whether you go to church < 1250813776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider, though, health care < 1250813777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just think Ayn Rand had the right idea. < 1250813784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "free market" position has a LOT of effects < 1250813790 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: agree, I think both of them have a bad take on healthcare < 1250813795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone dying is irreversible < 1250813800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two people not being able to marry can happen later < 1250813810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all a matter of perspective < 1250813847 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the thing is.. most of them aren't bad people on a personal level. they just literally don't realize that not everyone is rich. they genuinely believe that if you go get a job and work hard, you'll wind up rich (because they did / their dad did / their grandfather did), so they assume that it will work out like that for everyone < 1250813873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wondered how people class others, if not by their political positions: that which literally defines how they view the world. < 1250813883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps not bad, but stupid at least. < 1250813893 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people are only right-wing because they are stupid? < 1250813898 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: many are very intelligent, they were just raised in an insulated world and they lack perspective < 1250813904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: sounds about right < 1250813916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard a right-winger actually defend their position properly logically < 1250813928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: but a rational person would not generalise from such a small sample. < 1250813931 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're rich and only care about yourself, it's the most sensible way to go < 1250813934 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1250813943 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's the "bad people" minority < 1250813950 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I have met ones that can logically defend their position. those are the genuinely scary ones. < 1250813950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: yes, and when the rest of society holding you up collapses, you fall to the curb < 1250813958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right-wing politics are in nobody's interests < 1250813969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: are you sure they didn't hypnotise you? :) < 1250813974 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: haha. yes, I'm sure < 1250813982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: They're in plenty of people's interests. < 1250813990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not ultimately < 1250814003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right-wing politics, at the end, lead to the collapse of the non-elite, and the elite RELIES on them to exist < 1250814007 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you had an eternal life, then probably not < 1250814011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long-term, it's in nobody's interest < 1250814019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Short-term interests, I should say. < 1250814024 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you're say 50, right is the way to go < 1250814031 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...assuming you only care about yourself and are rich < 1250814032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The long-term result is, of course, the dark ages. < 1250814033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: unless you have any sort of sense of ethics, for instance < 1250814048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, look at the meltdown! < 1250814053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people who caused this are still alive < 1250814057 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: right, i was assuming you don't < 1250814059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it hasn't hit the elite yet < 1250814065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think it clear that they have no ethics. < 1250814092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder why nobody seems to like direct democracy < 1250814121 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: because most people are stupid. direct democracy is a HORRIBLE idea. just look at the state of California today for a case study. < 1250814136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: People being stupid is a problem with democracy in general. < 1250814148 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, and it's somewhat mitigated through the representation process < 1250814151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if most people want gay marriage to be illegal, the right thing to happen as far as the state is concerned is for it to be illegal. < 1250814159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I would support a benevolent dictatorship, if there were such a thing as a benevolent dictator. < 1250814168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indirect democracy is partly a dictatorship < 1250814172 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: most people in California voted for no gay marriage. the pro-gay marriage side won't accept that < 1250814175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of democracy is that the people decide what happens to them < 1250814192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: The Mormon church is to blame for that. < 1250814196 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agree < 1250814218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why are churches tax-free?) < 1250814244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's currently getting opposed as being against the US constitution. < 1250814280 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: CA has an extensive direct referendum system. we get at *least* 15 direct referendums for laws every year, often more. so the left proposes massive govt spending and everyone says "Yes!!! subsidies for this and that!!!" and then the right proposes massive tax cuts and everyone says "yes!! I want to pay less taxes!! who doesn't??" (because most people are stupid and inconsistent), and as a result California is bankrupt. < 1250814305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you oppose the people being able to fuck themselves over, you oppose democracy < 1250814313 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I wish people would spend HALF as much time on Prop 13 as they are on Prop 8. < 1250814331 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I oppose direct democracy. I am in favor of representative democracy. < 1250814342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :representative democracy isn't democracy, though < 1250814351 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: eh, semantics. call it whatever you want. < 1250814370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i insane for only wanting to call things democratic that are? < 1250814373 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'm in favor of a republican (note small-r) system < 1250814384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what? All government sucks. < 1250814391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm an anarchist in theory. :P < 1250814393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bring on the singularity. < 1250814408 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anarchy would be great ... for about a week, until someone beats your head in with a brick over a loaf of bread < 1250814409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, most singularity proponents favour the singularity being benevolent dictator of the universe. < 1250814410 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world is too complicated < 1250814419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: people can do that with laws, too < 1250814420 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should start over < 1250814433 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but they stand a very good chance of being arrested and imprisoned, which deters it most of the time. < 1250814468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the bigger problem with anarchy is not individuals who would go out and do crazy shit, but with corporations doing so. < 1250814473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm uncomfortable with the idea that most people are evil and only don't murder 16:28:00 it's like religious people who say < 1250814490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"atheists can't have any morals, because they don't have a bible to tell them" < 1250814497 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: exactly.. any anarchy would quickly develop street gangs and mafias that would take over.. until one eliminated all the others and renamed itself "the government" < 1250814507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because corporations actually are evil and only don't murder people because there's the threat of huge fines. < 1250814512 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe not most people, but at least some people < 1250814512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's the thing; anarchy inevitably leads to government < 1250814513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in our world < 1250814525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there's no such thing as a de jure govt < 1250814527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a de facto one < 1250814549 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "government" is just a monopoly on the use of force < 1250814558 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the legitimate use of force < 1250814566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: That's a property, not a definition. < 1250814574 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's my definition < 1250814590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A government is a *nomic* with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. < 1250814597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a definition. < 1250814604 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the nomic part isn't necessary < 1250814617 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nomic implies that every participant has, or at least once had, a means to influence the system < 1250814625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't. < 1250814636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nomic implies that there is a means to influence the system. < 1250814648 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't necessarily such a means < 1250814652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must not be familiar with emperor nomic. ;) < 1250814680 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible to characterize a government as a nomic, sure, but I'd say that's a property and not a definition ;) < 1250814686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nomic by benevolent dictator) < 1250814729 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a rather trivial sense of the word "nomic" then < 1250814738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperial nomic looked fun < 1250814770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A nomic is a system of rules that have rules for their modification. < 1250814820 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, I know what it is. A govt does not necessarily meet that definition. and if it did, that would be incidental to its own definition < 1250814826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: i hear california has a balanced budget requirement - what if that was extended to _each_ popular referendum... < 1250814851 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that would be a step in the right direction.. I'd support it < 1250814856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition. < 1250814868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you couldn't make a subsidy without also raising taxes simultaneously, or something like that < 1250814886 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: another problem is that (unlike most states) budgets must be passed by a 2/3rds majority in the legislature (rather than a simple majority), which allows extremists from either party to halt the process < 1250814911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: oh, not just those which increase taxes? < 1250814917 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: any authoritarian govt where changes are made arbitrarily without rules < 1250814933 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: every single year the yearly budget must be passed by a 2/3rds majority < 1250814943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's rules governing how they may make rules. Said rules are, of course, trivial. < 1250814949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My word is law." < 1250814953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a very simple nomic. < 1250814954 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: haha. that doesn't count as a rule < 1250814964 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The rule is: there are no rules" < 1250814965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1250814978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's anarchy, not nomic. < 1250814985 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and in any case, that would be a *description* of a government rather than a definition of it < 1250814991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: oh well. either california solves the problem, or it collapses and _then_ solves the problem. < 1250815003 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :( maybe I'll move to New York < 1250815010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: It's a formalism for defining a government, actually. ;) < 1250815027 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: formalisms are just that, formalisms. models. they are not identical to the thing itself. they're models of it. < 1250815045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Care to take this one? < 1250815060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tags out, lets the mathematician have fun
< 1250815061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition. < 1250815061 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :politics is such a useless subject < 1250815073 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: /me philosopher > mathematician ;) < 1250815094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall the vatican state is still absolutist monarchist, so no rules the pope cannot change at least < 1250815110 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, technically < 1250815111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Not greater. Philosophy and math just have a common subset. < 1250815119 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: mathematics is just applied philosophy < 1250815140 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think he meant he's more a philosopher than he's a mathematician < 1250815143 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that being why you get a.... PhD (philosophiae doctor) degree < 1250815146 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i guessed wrong < 1250815156 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should supply verbs < 1250815178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Philosophy is just math with crappy axioms. :P < 1250815182 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1250815196 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :� pikhq tags out, lets the mathematician have fun <<< ah i read mathematician*s*, thought pikhq thought kwertii was one, yeah nm me < 1250815206 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Math is a game with rules and no goal. Philosophy is a game with a goal and no rules. < 1250815231 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linguistics is a game with neither rules nor goal. < 1250815234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Like I said, crappy axioms. < 1250815244 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: axiomatic knowledge is by definition faith-based < 1250815258 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in other words... a religion! *zing* < 1250815262 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: only the objects math handles are like that, i'd say the actual creative part of mathematics has neither rules nor a goal :) < 1250815289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, no. Axioms are defined because they are useful. < 1250815295 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: but the creative part just consists in inventing new rules.. < 1250815303 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so says any religion < 1250815319 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: well right, that's what i meant < 1250815325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No, religions state their axioms just *are*. < 1250815350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math defines axioms just because they can do something with it. That's it. < 1250815361 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's what math states about its axioms. granted, it's somewhat more open to modifying them, and more internally consistent, than most religions, but in the end it's still all faith-based propositions with no means of testing them < 1250815386 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll readily concede that math is a "better" religion in some sense than most.. < 1250815393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No. < 1250815432 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't buy into mathematical Platonism in any sense < 1250815440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math is not at all internally consistent. It has been proven impossible for any nontrivial axiomatic system to be consistent. ;) < 1250815446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... IIRC. I may have botched that.) < 1250815456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incompleteness theorem, right?) < 1250815465 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's *mostly* internally consistent. Yes, Goedel's Incompleteness theorem < 1250815475 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which actually only applies to first order predicate calculus IIRC < 1250815503 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... which just proves my point that it's not a certain body of knowledge but a religion :) < 1250815510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyways, we don't take faith that our axioms are correct. We don't even say our axioms are anything but scribblings on a piece of paper. < 1250815526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We say that from these axioms, we can say certain things are true. < 1250815556 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the incompleteness theorem says is that a body of knowledge is EITHER internally inconsistent OR based on external axioms which are not provable within the system (i.e. faith-based..) < 1250815587 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"body of knowledge" being defined narrowly as something expressable in 1st order predicate calculus < 1250815592 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... You haven't even demonstrated your assertion that axioms = faith. < 1250815622 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: by definition of "axiom", they're just assertions. they're not testable. therefore faith based by definition. you can either accept that they're true or not. there's no scientific test that can be done < 1250815631 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: but math isn't about believing in those axioms, it just says that for a system where they are true would have certain properties < 1250815638 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1250815645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: But faith implies belief. < 1250815646 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-for < 1250815658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (... IIRC. I may have botched that.) <-- you surely did < 1250815669 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: sure, it's an interesting game.. I didn't say it was worthless to pursue math.. < 1250815676 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math isn't about beliving this universe is such a system, for any set of axioms < 1250815685 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's physics, and the rest < 1250815689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No mathematician *believes in* their axioms. Thus, there can be no faith involved in the game. < 1250815693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consistent _and complete_ is what's impossible < 1250815701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ah, right. < 1250815711 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan : Lies < 1250815717 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consistent and complete is possible < 1250815720 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: well.. the dominant theory of the philosophy of math in modern academia is the Platonic theory which says that mathematical truths are in some sense "real", reflections of inherent properties of the universe.. which is just magical thinking IMO < 1250815730 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Propositional calculus is totally both < 1250815736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, we don't say "ZFC must be true!", we say "From ZFC, we can see that 1+1=2." < 1250815741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: this refers to pikhq's original statement, which included "non-trivial" < 1250815749 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zermelo Fried Chicken < 1250815760 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, propositional calculus is not trivial! < 1250815764 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yes, that sounds religious, i'm not saying mathematicianism isn't a religion, just that mathematics isn't :P < 1250815772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well indeed that seems a bit strong < 1250815773 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that makes any sense < 1250815797 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: in the sense that most mathematicians aren't aware of and don't care about the philosophical basis of their field, sure :) < 1250815824 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct < 1250815828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: well i was trying to interpret pikhq as close to right as possible there < 1250815828 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a dude who did newtonian mechanics without any number or functions < 1250815832 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: i mean for some mathematicians math might be a religion, but that's completely outside math as a field, imo < 1250815840 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he proposed methods to replace all such math < 1250815843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: And I know of no mathematicians that do. < 1250815847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate philosophy. < 1250815858 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: check out any modern work on the philosophy of mathematics.. < 1250815859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb. < 1250815861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematicians just simply claim that ZFC is useful. < 1250815891 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game < 1250815893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Clearly, the philosophy of mathematics has flawed assertions. < 1250815899 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I agree 100% :) < 1250815925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you start by saying that "mathematical truth is real", of course you start thinking math is a religion. < 1250815937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, *that's not math*. < 1250815937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct < 1250815961 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Nothing in math is real*. (well, aside from the set of reals. :P) < 1250815962 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what you're describing is closer to physics.. physicists don't care about the equations except insofar as they model some real system < 1250815987 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: insofar as it's based on axioms arrived at inductively , it is (by definition) without any basis except faith < 1250816011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: And mathematicians don't care about the equations except insofar as further interesting statements can be made. < 1250816024 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: most mathematicians, yeah, but mathematical philosophers... < 1250816048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: we have reason to believer it is consistent, though, as good as for any other scientific theory, because it has kept on not being proven inconsistent < 1250816053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-r < 1250816056 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's an interesting game, sure, but it's not capital-T Truth in any sense. < 1250816067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical philosophers are not talking about math, but rather their own stupid thoughts on what math is. < 1250816071 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: by "ZFC is correct", do you mean "ZFC is consistent" < 1250816083 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean that it's correct < 1250816098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The very term "correct" does not even apply to axioms. ;) < 1250816101 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sure, it's a good working hypothesis insofar as it turns out useful results, but it's not metaphysical capital-T Truth. it's a set of asserted rules for a game < 1250816121 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean is "correct" a mathematical philosophical term and what does it mean < 1250816131 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: by "correct", I mean an accurate description of some aspect of reality < 1250816144 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: everything is a philosophical term ;) < 1250816149 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i have no idea what that means < 1250816165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: "ZFC is correct" has less meaning than "colorless green ideas dream furiously". < 1250816183 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my point exactly. < 1250816201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: its importance is because all other games we have so far invented can be imbedded into it in one way or another < 1250816202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... But you've not been saying that at all. < 1250816212 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: most.. but not all...... < 1250816226 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: perhaps I haven't been explaining myself very well < 1250816237 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which is cool. no question about it < 1250816250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've been saying that "mathematical truths are real" and "'ZFC is correct' is a belief". < 1250816270 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes. faith based assertions which are not testable < 1250816287 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not assertions < 1250816295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: No, they are contradictions in terms. < 1250816298 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axioms are by definition assertions. they don't derive from anything < 1250816333 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: please explain < 1250816335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical anything is not real. And ZFC is neither correct nor incorrect. < 1250816349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is the very opposite of reality. < 1250816355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all in our heads! < 1250816361 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, good, we agree after all :) < 1250816366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you are liberal with what you consider an embedding, i'm not sure about "but not all" < 1250816381 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, it can't model "random" processes, by definition < 1250816384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are kripke models for alternative logics, for example < 1250816387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Which is hugely different from religion. < 1250816401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Religion states "X is real". < 1250816404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: huh, sure it can. have you never heard of probability theory < 1250816409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1250816412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math says "Shove reality, we're having fun!" < 1250816422 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "random" results are by definition those that do not follow any known probability distribution < 1250816437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that's an unusual definition of random < 1250816438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1250816453 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you know a reliable way to model random phenomena, contact me and let's make a boatload of money in the stock market :) < 1250816470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: modeling does not imply being able to predict < 1250816503 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a theory that does not make testable predictions is (by definition) unscientific < 1250816510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stock market problem is probably chaos < 1250816528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Good thing math isn't science. < 1250816533 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or sunspots or earthquakes or weather phenomena or the emission of radiation from unstable elements or outer space radio noise, etc. < 1250816537 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math has nothing to do with science < 1250816541 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: haha < 1250816549 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a ridiculous claim < 1250816559 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :science needs a universe < 1250816562 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an unscientific theory is, by definition, magical thinking.. a religion < 1250816572 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8| < 1250816574 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superstition < 1250816578 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numerology! < 1250816580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1250816592 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf. critical rationalism of Karl Popper in phil of science < 1250816607 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: those are still things that model the real world, only they don't follow any scientific method. < 1250816611 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are closer to science than math. < 1250816616 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than math is < 1250816624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: being unable to predict exactly is not unscientific, and math _proves_ you cannot predict chaotic systems long-term other than statistically < 1250816644 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: chaotic != truly random < 1250816644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that this conversation suffices as empirical evidence that philosophy has terrible axioms. < 1250816660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that said, I'm going to go pack. < 1250816661 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: we don't use axioms, they're just faith-based superstition ;) < 1250816666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: there is no proof any of those examples are more than chaotic < 1250816693 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's part of the interesting part, "randomness" can only be defined negatively... as something like "the lack of any known ordering" < 1250816713 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: many phenomena previously considered "random" were later found to simply have non-obvious order < 1250816722 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1250816742 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you define random as a sequence a tm can't produce? < 1250816770 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I don't know if I'd use that particular definition, but it could be < 1250816771 0 :Sneezle!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"good night, have fun o/" < 1250816797 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: you could just have a tm repeat some previously known "random" sequence, in which case that def reduces to "uncompressable information" or something like that < 1250816821 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: but the problem is that any sufficiently long "random" sequence will eventually include some compressable data < 1250816828 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1250816840 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, is that so < 1250816852 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: if you have an infinitely long "random" string, it will contain the complete works of Shakespeare somewhere < 1250816870 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with probability 1 < 1250816875 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1250816876 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1250816883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that doesn't make the whole sequence compressible though < 1250816922 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, I can accept more readily "the sequence as a whole is uncompressible" as a good definition.. but then you could compress it insofar as you could replace large chunks of it with algorithms and make it smaller < 1250816932 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1250816935 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know exactly what "random" means. if I did, I'd be a billionaire. < 1250816965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: nope, doesn't work, the overhead to handle those "compressible" bits will make the _rest_ longer < 1250816966 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should have like a basic information theory exam for getting on this channel < 1250817000 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but you could have an overall "smaller" string still if your overhead is smaller than the sequence removed < 1250817026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: but if the whole string is incompressible, then you cannot achieve that, by definition < 1250817042 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll follow ehird's lead and go to the shoppe, methinks -> < 1250817042 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok, so "uncompressable" is not a good definition for "random" then :) < 1250817076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's undecidable, for one thing... < 1250817135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then so is stochastical randomness < 1250817192 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Mmmm, home-made sparkling water! < 1250817328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1250817384 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817384 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817384 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817385 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817385 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250817453 0 :mycroftiv!n=drabgah@69.128.47.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250817453 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@130.233.228.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250817453 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1250817758 0 :JoelyWoely!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1250817847 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1250818418 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250818594 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250818758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: what about water < 1250818767 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sparkling :P < 1250818776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay :P < 1250818777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:51] kwertii: pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game < 1250818778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuuck you < 1250818781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way to trivialise mathematics < 1250818790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250818797 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1250818804 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250818810 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ?? like it's *my* fault < 1250818823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:| < 1250818836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawd i hate philosophers < 1250818846 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::''( < 1250818883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Learn what math is before talking about it. ;) < 1250818892 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've got a pretty good grasp of math, thanks < 1250818917 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn what philosophy is before making philosophical claims... < 1250818967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1250818974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn what astrology is before making astrological claims < 1250818980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've seen of this conversation, philosophy is redefining something and then making statements regarding that redefinition. < 1250818982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't just say it's pseudoscientific bullshit! < 1250818998 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophy is a rather vast field < 1250819017 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some is actually pretty tits < 1250819023 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hear-hears to ehird :P
< 1250819075 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: yep, vast. most all other fields are subfields of philosophy (much to some peoples' consternation). that's why you get a PhD (philosophiae doctor) in most fields as the highest degree - it means you have a philosophical understanding of the field, which is held to be the highest level of knowledge. < 1250819116 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the meaning has changed a bit < 1250819119 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't necessarily need to learn all about astrology yourself before concluding that it's pseudoscience (i.e. it makes untestable predictions); you can find someone that you trust who has done the analysis for you and trust them. < 1250819131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :philosophy is bullshit < 1250819132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple as < 1250819133 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back then it was to contrast it with a theological doctorate < 1250819136 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ThD < 1250819141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's another word for, < 1250819148 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: and a law degree (JD) and a medical degree (MD) < 1250819149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I can't think of a way to formalise this" < 1250819152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so let's just make shit up" < 1250819155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and pretend it's reason" < 1250819156 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm, more sparkling water. < 1250819158 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : Gödel's incompleteness theorem is philosophy :( < 1250819164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: no, it's mathematics < 1250819167 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: hey, don't shoot the messenger. < 1250819167 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1250819170 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also mathematics < 1250819175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not philosophy < 1250819184 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of logic and set theory was based on mathematical philosophy < 1250819207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's formalised so it's notphilosophy < 1250819212 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1250819224 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is an important semantical part behind it < 1250819225 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :philosophy, particularly Anglo-American analytic philosophy, is extremely formal < 1250819239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: sparkling water can't compare to swig ingest drink! < 1250819239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Then it's math. < 1250819244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXACTLY < 1250819245 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there's a lot of verlap < 1250819246 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you can't prove Gödel's theorem without some semantics < 1250819247 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*overlap < 1250819260 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... I'm swigging, ingesting and drinking sparkling water. < 1250819261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since mathematics is formal reasoning. < 1250819277 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : one of the single most foundational figures of modern mathematics, Bertrand Russell, was (not coincidentally) also a philosopher < 1250819284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: But is it a bottle of liquid, Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption? < 1250819294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a TASTE in your MOUTH! Soft drink! < 1250819296 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, are you still 13 years old < 1250819298 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google "swig ingest drink" < 1250819300 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main Entry: swig. Part of Speech: verb. Definition: drink down ... gulp, imbibe, ingest, ingurgitate, inhale, put away, quaff, sip, slurp, swig, swill, ... \ thesaurus.reference.com/browse/swig - [14]Cached - [15]Similar < 1250819307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: in less than 24 hours i'm 14 < 1250819316 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1250819317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: It's the soft drink I invented yesterday, remember? :P < 1250819321 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's bake you a cake < 1250819324 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I didn't know you named it :P < 1250819328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: I'm probably legal somewhere! < 1250819339 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-azqXygCzO8 < 1250819347 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iunno < 1250819350 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1250819352 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spain maybe < 1250819354 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: So long as you're having sex with <18yr olds, you're legal most everywhere in the US :P < 1250819368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: uhh, you guys prosecute two minors fucking < 1250819378 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, most of the countries with low legal ages are rather religious < 1250819379 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrongo < 1250819381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if reddit isn't a pack of lies < 1250819383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is dubious < 1250819386 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And usually the age for homosexual sex isn't the same < 1250819392 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not sure you're that legal < 1250819406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does ""age"" even mean anyway?! < 1250819414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe my CONCEPT has existed for 18 years. < 1250819427 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : time since vagina < 1250819429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway age of consent is 16 here in the UK, which seems about right < 1250819436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: WHERE IS THIS SPECIFIED IN THE LAW < 1250819446 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iunno, I'm no lawyer < 1250819453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEE? < 1250819456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The common people are NOT AWARE < 1250819458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's unjust! < 1250819493 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you really want my dick this bad < 1250819512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am just fighting for truth, freedom and Chewbacca < 1250819589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always bothered me how hard it is for a person to find out whether an action is legal or not < 1250819592 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1250819596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're expected to just "use common sense", duh. < 1250819600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is totally unhelpful. < 1250819609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As clearly more than common sense is regulated. < 1250819634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there you are ;) < 1250819647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1250819668 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : Do you have an example < 1250819677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An example of what < 1250819677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone else see the logs strangely cut off? < 1250819685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1250819694 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of such confusing laws for laymen < 1250819700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem to be delayed < 1250819704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: The point is that common sense isn't < 1250819721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's literally no way to know if you're breaking the law apart from trawling through thousands upon thousands of pages of legalese < 1250819742 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but do you have like a real example < 1250819744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have this code to keep the peace, because if people think they'll be imprisoned for something, they won't do it < 1250819745 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thus lawyers charge $200-500 an hour in the US < 1250819752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet, nobody knows what these illegal things are < 1250819755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't work! < 1250819788 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: think it's a coincidence that so many politicians are lawyers? < 1250819796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1250819801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's troubling < 1250819927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignorance of the law is no excuse - despite the fact a lot of people would be _unable_ to understand the law even if they tried :( < 1250819959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rest would be wasting a huge amount of resources on it < 1250819966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure as fuck wouldn't; have you ever read any law? < 1250819971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's completely obfuscated and unorganised. < 1250819980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, let's just say "This is repealed" 5 billion paragraphs later. < 1250820015 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite the fact that it is undetermined what the law is. < 1250820132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Channel too depressing - aborting" < 1250820140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1250820147 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst thing is when the law changes and you don't notice < 1250820156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the opposite < 1250820166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear, officer, I didn't know sex with minors hadn't been legalised yet < 1250820621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japan has 14 iirc < 1250820639 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know how religious japan is < 1250820687 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japan is religious about rape < 1250820839 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pervert teacher tries to have sex with cute naive high school girls" seems to be a popular topic of light comedy on Japanese sitcoms < 1250820859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1250821035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :age is a pretty silly cutoff < 1250821192 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat < 1250821237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is, usually, nice and determinable < 1250821252 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250821274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, really i don't see the need for a cutoff < 1250821284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1250821306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't think i do < 1250821331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do you think a seven year old can, intellectually, consent to sex with a manipulating 40 year old? < 1250821334 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, again, morally, i guess it's useful as a law :P < 1250821345 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1250821360 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no cutoff is needed, because she'll never consent. < 1250821374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure she will; she'll say "yes", then "I said yes" < 1250821388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically ou're just redefining consent < 1250821392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of pointless < 1250821409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're < 1250821425 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a 14-year-old rapes a 25-year-old, is that statutory rape for the 25-year-old? :P < 1250821456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Legally? Yes. < 1250821490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man really? < 1250821494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: really i have nothing against a 7-yo consenting to sex with a 40-yo, i'd have loved that as a 7-yo, the actual damage is physical, that's what a 7-yo shouldn't be able to consent to. < 1250821496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a new project < 1250821505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be non-intrusive < 1250821522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i think this falls under the same thing as your consensual killing thing < 1250821542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CAN A 7 YEAR OLD GIRL CONSENT TO A 40 YEAR OLD KILLING HER WITH HIS PENIS??????????????) < 1250821556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ... < 1250821563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ i just ruined all prospects for my future employment < 1250821572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, this is my craziness, the consensual killing was a valid point. < 1250821578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally different < 1250821580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oklopol has said that he finds people who are traumatised by rape weird < 1250821583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he likes sex < 1250821600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would like to be raped < 1250821617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1250821619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he gets that it's the "nonconsensual" bit that's traumatising. < 1250821626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i've said i'd like to see if i'd get traumatized < 1250821627 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1250821632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't said i'd want to be raped < 1250821642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you've also said that you think the idea of being traumatised by it is weidr < 1250821645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fine, so i misremembered < 1250821647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weird < 1250821659 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, very weird < 1250821737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i wanted to get raped, getting raped wouldn't serve the purpose of me then being able to tell people that at least i didn't get traumatized by it. < 1250821805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really i don't believe anyone shouldn't do anything except by a rational choice < 1250821848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is definitely not something i do, but i think others should judge me for not doing it < 1250821855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tricky stuff, my brain hurts. < 1250821878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i suspect that you just believe this shit to be weird on the interwebs :P < 1250821938 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if it might be possible to design a 3d web that's somewhat sane. Of course, it would be much easier and saner to leave the 2d web and have embeddable 3d when needed, but still
< 1250821948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well not exactly, but yes, i'm not nearly as open about this stuff irl :) < 1250822019 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance if a girl tells me she's been raped, i usually try to empathize with her to some extent < 1250822044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not, you know, tell her she's a sucker for complaining about it < 1250822103 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a 3d net < 1250822173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shoud do anything < 1250822180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, the idea of an environment where you explore information and other typical web activities in 3d. It's a sucky idea that SL and other 3d things have been pushing for < 1250822191 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I wonder if it's possible to make a not-so-sucky thing < 1250822214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean the gui part, or the actual networking part < 1250822216 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1250822227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "actual networking", which made no sense < 1250822238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the graph < 1250822244 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what you can reach from where < 1250822250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperlinks let you explore the graph directly < 1250822266 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the graph. < 1250822285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :embedding stuff in R^3 will only make exploration slower < 1250822310 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gui, on the other hand, can be made 3d without any loss of that, you could even have like walking avatars and shit, if you used portals for hyperlinks < 1250822325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain is kinda slow atm, probably not making much sense < 1250822332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll continue reading random shit -> < 1250822591 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UGH < 1250822614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION starts settin' up an opengenera vm
< 1250822615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GameTap is moving to a plugin model. In the process, they removed various features, and support for OS/X < 1250822619 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenGenera? < 1250822628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, OS X < 1250822632 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They wrote it as OS/X < 1250822636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lisp machine OS, ported to some weird 64 bit architecture on linux < 1250822659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh brother, 0 peers? < 1250822668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 peer. < 1250822675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 seeders sez tpb < 1250822683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1250822684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it saved < 1250822693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly be < 1250822694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly me < 1250823819 0 :JoelyWoely!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CESSMASTER < 1250824594 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250826469 0 :ineiros_!n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1250826469 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1250826589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi dbc < 1250826920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1250827979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi pikhq < 1250830343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm installing opengenera in a vm < 1250830353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna found a $language machine company. you guys can join. < 1250830462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where $language != C? < 1250830516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll make a bunch of hardware. and an OS. :P < 1250830742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: of course. < 1250830752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp, Haskell, Graphreducing, some array language, ... < 1250830754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows. < 1250830835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it must have an awesome OS, orthogonal persistence, hardware GC, a high-level CPU in general (near 1:1 source:cpu mapping, modulo structure and optimisations), ... < 1250830999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The business model: get a bunch of funding from, oh, Y Combinator or someone, then sell machines somehow. :P < 1250831021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats Twitter's. < 1250831074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a bunch of funding, and start the magic money siphon? < 1250831096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter's business model is "Get a bunch of funding and then, um, so, about this new feature we added!" < 1250831136 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1250831207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a shame that there isn't really a market for such machines, except ... < 1250831210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1250831255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm pretty sure there are a few niche markets where they'll pay a ton to get systems that aren't offered by anything else; I remember Lisp Machines getting in them, but I'm tired so can't remember. < 1250833320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like many companies, Cyc has ambitions to use the Cyc natural language understanding tools to parse the entire internet to extract structured data.[3]" < 1250833326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just me, or is that a BAD idea? < 1250833342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) Cyc is bullshit. < 1250833344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) Why? < 1250833353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, Friendly AI is an important consideration. < 1250833365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Luddite fearmongering "I saw it in a movie" anti-AI sentiment is evil. < 1250833415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, there's no trustworthy place on the Internet it can look. < 1250833433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no other place it can look to in the world. < 1250833435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't someone just say, write a page of absolute BS, and have that be included? < 1250833446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because it will trust every web page totally! < 1250833456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The internet is the most accurate portrayal of humanity that exists. < 1250833465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its sum can be trusted as much as we can. < 1250833502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is Cyc BS? < 1250833528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If we define some basic logical primitives, and a way to enter fact tuples, all we have to do is enter a few hundred thousand and BAM! Strong AI!" < 1250833541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Also, who cares about friendliness. I'm sure it'll like us." < 1250833546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Friendliness < 1250833580 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's data may be used by AIs, but who said that it is an AI, or if it is, that it has any concept of actually taking actions itself? < 1250833587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, them. < 1250833590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, *its. < 1250833593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, its data is worthless. < 1250833632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny, because Eurisko, despite only working with prodding for humans, showed good promise. < 1250833642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cyc is a massive step back from that; stupid Lenat. < 1250833653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's been going since 1984, wonder how that's going. < 1250833698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Cyc is basically... Prolog. < 1250833700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (#$capitalCity #$France #$Paris) < 1250833701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1250833706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capitalCity(france,paris) < 1250833708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1250833711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#$implies < 1250833711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (#$and < 1250833711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUBSET) < 1250833711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (#$genls ?SUBSET ?SUPERSET)) < 1250833712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUPERSET)) < 1250833714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1250833752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isa(Obj,Set) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Superset) < 1250833753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1250833754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Packing computer-machine!" < 1250833754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1250833786 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isa(Obj,Superset) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Set) < 1250833799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, whatever < 1250833801 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1250833815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point is, Cyc is prolog with a million facts and nowhere to go < 1250833837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something wrong with being Prolog-equivalent? < 1250833861 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any Prolog fact...thingies with similar amounts of information? < 1250833869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Is there something wrong with taking Prolog, giving it awkward syntax, rebranding it as an "AI inference engine", claiming it's the next big thing in AI, starting a company based upon it, and riding it since 1984? < 1250833870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. < 1250833874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's BULLSHIT. < 1250833977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 1984, it was slightly less stupid to claim that would result in an AI. < 1250833985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah- slightly < 1250833989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at eurisko < 1250833992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his previous system < 1250834000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it didn't work all that well, and he had to help it < 1250834004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it made useful deductions < 1250834008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and competed in a tournament well < 1250834012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than cyc has ever done or ever will < 1250834043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1250834044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1250834044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1250834213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lenat envisions ultimately coupling the Cyc knowledgebase with the Eurisko discovery engine." < 1250834219 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes some sense, kind of < 1250834230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't see why you're determined to defend Cyc < 1250834232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's utter carp < 1250834234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*crap < 1250834243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I played with it once. < 1250834256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could have guessed as much. < 1250834337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenCyc web access thingy is down right now :( < 1250834347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a terrible loss. < 1250834987 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1250835675 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1250835839 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there alternatives to Cyc? < 1250836072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any decent AI project. < 1250836075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. none) < 1250836080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woohoo! OpenGenera runs in a VM! < 1250836089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1250836265 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://osdir.com/ml/ai.prolog.swi/2002-06/msg00039.html < 1250836272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYC < 1250836273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS < 1250836273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT < 1250836275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1250836276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WORKING < 1250836277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AI < 1250836277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MODEL < 1250836282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog interface to Cyc < 1250836292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it need to be, in order to be cool? < 1250836301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't "cool". < 1250836351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember adding myself as a cyclist < 1250836422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have fun supporting a business that's holding back AI. < 1250836430 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@a-23.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1250837332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes? < 1250837339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I got opengenera booted < 1250837344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just trying to get its nfs working < 1250837350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh also, how did you get save world after site definition to work < 1250837354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is where I failed < 1250837355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't got that far < 1250837358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh ok < 1250837367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read things in the comments about it though < 1250837372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, basically it seemed to hang there < 1250837376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or stall < 1250837378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the config interface for the site is better than any interface i've used so far < 1250837378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or crash < 1250837379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1250837386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1250837387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANY < 1250837415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the listener, wow < 1250837418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discoverable command line < 1250837420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with rich input < 1250837421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1250837425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so got nfs to work? < 1250837427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm < 1250837430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, this is pre-nfs < 1250837447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tell me if you manage to save the world after the site definition < 1250837453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something to do with x11 i think < 1250837460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1250837625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's try thi < 1250837625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1250837842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let's try this < 1250837859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, issues? < 1250837866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just getting things working < 1250837868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems right < 1250837873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huzzah < 1250837877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so save world worked? if so tell me what you did < 1250837880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr < 1250837884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up, I'll tell you when i get ther < 1250837884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1250837885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not < 1250837890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok :) < 1250837994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could middle click < 1250838137 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i middle clicked your mom < 1250838195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7:03am... sleep soon < 1250838280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noob < 1250838406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot, it talks to nfs < 1250838412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why can't you middle click < 1250838419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is this before you saved site right? < 1250838419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mouse broken < 1250838425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about to save site < 1250838434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok, tell if you get THAT step working < 1250838436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1250838442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then is able to run opengenera after < 1250838454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the now saved site and world stuff < 1250838489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's frozen after "System Shutdown..."; methinks this is correct. < 1250838498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1250838502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly not < 1250838509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, same issue as I hit iir < 1250838510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc* < 1250838518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not able to load the saved world thingy < 1250838568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it it didn't save at lal < 1250838587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only way I was able to save worlds was to use an early version of Xorg. In my case, running a Xubuntu dapper (6.06) virtual machine did the trick. Thanks to the “painfully learned facts” section here: http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux?source < 1250838589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, same issue < 1250838596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have got thing working, including save world. < 1250838596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Install details; vmware, ubuntu 6.06 server (amd64) < 1250838596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manually installed basic xwindows from the package repositories. < 1250838613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm. so you are saying it breaks under newer X? < 1250838614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1250838618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they are < 1250838627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can you remind me to do it tomorrow < 1250838631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm bedding soon < 1250838638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh, I'm going to uni soon < 1250838645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with it being morning < 1250838658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you, you person < 1250838659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't know when tomorrow is in your private timezone :P < 1250838662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your real sleep schedules < 1250838674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like, when i next join. < 1250838686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well likely I'm already asleep then ;P < 1250838696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like circa 16:00 < 1250838700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm kay < 1250838712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not be home yet then. not sure < 1250838735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well left uni, probably in car on my way home < 1250838736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1250838865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want a button to make me sleep right now < 1250838868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1250838884 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1250839047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grggggl;,,,,,, < 1250839069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a nice day everyone! Bye. < 1250839110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bi < 1250839206 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250839554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sets up ubutnu server 6.06
< 1250839678 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1250839734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for opengenara < 1250839737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*opengenera < 1250839806 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1250839974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp machines are funnnnnn < 1250840397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn < 1250840402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will have genera < 1250841599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1250841600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1250841852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This will be the most confusing orgy I've ever had with myself." < 1250842174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who won't a modern Ubuntu work for OpenGenera? < 1250842320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See above. < 1250842325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1250842410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, someone reported that some "world" thing works in 6.06 < 1250842415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a "world"? < 1250842469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1250843041 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250843261 0 :MizardX-!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1250843422 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1250843437 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1250843804 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-91-210.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1250843875 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1250846473 0 :mtve!n=mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250847735 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1250850944 0 :jix!n=jix@188-193-95-175-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1250853318 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-bfdvzpbgjcgnyhny JOIN :#esoteric < 1250853714 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1250853912 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1250855833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thunderbird is a lightweight mail/news/RSS client, based on the Mozilla suite. It supports different mail accounts (POP, IMAP, Gmail), has an integrated learning Spam filter, and offers easy organization of mails with tagging and virtual folders. Also, more features can be added by installing extensions." < 1250855840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the ubuntu package description < 1250855841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1250855853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thunderbird... lightweight? < 1250856196 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1250857729 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-jslyzuhqydtmxofx JOIN :#esoteric < 1250859132 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1250859219 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1250859706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips. < 1250859714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost no http traffic for example < 1250859720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it is an open network so XD < 1250859890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and sometimes something called WLCCP which googling seems to suggest is something to make multiple Cisco access points show up as one... < 1250859964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not odd my laptop wakes up so much on this wlan what will all broadcasts for mdns and such < 1250860051 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-5-210.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1250860547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1250862169 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :SendQ exceeded < 1250862346 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1250862825 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-224.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1250863593 0 :jix!n=jix@188-193-95-175-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1250863764 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250866275 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1250867380 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1250868636 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1250868956 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-42.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1250870538 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@pal-163-054.itap.purdue.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1250870589 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250870589 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1250870621 0 :jix!n=jix@188-193-95-175-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1250870621 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1250870810 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1250870823 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-5-210.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1250870849 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-224.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1250871303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing I found on the university wlan today was a CUPS printer server. < 1250871398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which broadcast info about 7 printers < 1250871437 0 :sebbu3!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-28-73.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1250871935 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1250872299 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250872557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the MAC indicates it is a Mac as well ;) < 1250872757 0 :nooga!n=nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1250872991 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=() < 1250873007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm... that one broadcast some SMB discovery packages too... and those indicates it is a personal laptop. That is misconfigured to run a public cups server heh. < 1250873034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw for nooga: I used tcpdump for about 30 minutes on the university wlan, now I'm analysing the results) < 1250873057 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? :> < 1250873061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I found for example a misconfigured apple laptop that acts as a public cups server for seven printers < 1250873068 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1250873092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, oh and there are lots of clients using those "discovery protocols". Like MDNS, SSDP, and so on < 1250873098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/P,/P/ < 1250873117 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no distributed renderers huh? < 1250873121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and there are some CISCO access points talking to each others < 1250873128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, -_- < 1250873164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, anyway, my laptop recieved on average 20 packages per second, about half was from my ssh tunnel back home < 1250873176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was just doing IRC forwarding over it < 1250873178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1250873182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway: < 1250873208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan! < 1250873213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a waste of battery < 1250873215 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1250873258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yep < 1250873269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDNS shows the hostname of that misconfigured mac < 1250873311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_workstation._tcp.local: type PTR, class IN, Tai Chis PowerBook G4 12" [00:0d:93:af:61:f0]._workstation._tcp.local < 1250873353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, as a test I did a MDNS broadcast query to check for how many would respond. Lots did. < 1250873355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite interesting < 1250873383 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed, brb < 1250873498 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1250874066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intersting. Looking at the statistics in wireshark show that I saw way more UDP than TCP packets < 1250874123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 85% of the TCP packets were to/from myself, while ~70% of the UDP ones were broad cast, and only about 2% of the remaining ones were to me. < 1250874172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err 1% were for me < 1250874189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was basically some DNS traffic < 1250874281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 57% were IPv4 packets, 24% were IPv6, and 4% were non-IP. 13% of the non-IP ones were ARP. < 1250874303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait misread that < 1250874310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13% overall were ARPs < 1250874344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there was some "Logical Link Control" and some Cisco stuff < 1250874358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and 0.30% was IPX? < 1250874454 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone is playing RA2 < 1250874456 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;d < 1250874460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, RA2? < 1250874461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1250874466 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red alert 2 < 1250874514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, no clue what that is < 1250874543 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert_2 < 1250874545 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1250874550 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've never played that? < 1250874558 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahs shit < 1250874558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English wiki link please < 1250874560 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polish version < 1250874561 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1250874575 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert_2 < 1250874577 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1250874946 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems that you have busy network there < 1250874961 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even during summer vacations < 1250875521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, and no I never played there < 1250875523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1250875537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, oh good point, it will be really bad next week < 1250877064 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250878291 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C&C is nice, yeah < 1250879583 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250879594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo bitchezzzz < 1250879598 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1250879615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzzzzzzz < 1250879657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:57:33 thunderbird... lightweight? < 1250879657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metacity claims the same :) < 1250879662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, minimal < 1250879686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm, no idea about metacity. Haven't looked at the details of the window manager < 1250879689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:01:46 I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips. < 1250879689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is likely against your university's policy < 1250879690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no idea < 1250879698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, in code it's like 50,000 lines; in features it's very gnome < 1250879707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works fine, though < 1250879734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about policys, I didn't do any active scanning. < 1250879745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://incise.org/not-so-tiny-window-managers.html 49,787 lines when pentium 4s, linux 2.6.7 and gcc 3.3.4 were common < 1250879752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just sat there listening < 1250879759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you're generally meant to not look at any other traffic apart from yours. < 1250879764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for obvious reasons < 1250879791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:46:48 nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan! < 1250879791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wakes up on every packet? < 1250879792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1250879826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, to tell software to process it I assume? < 1250879833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While sleeping/ < 1250879834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and most were multicast. < 1250879834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1250879844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the technical details are irrelevan < 1250879845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1250879846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, sleeping as in, CPU was in C3 < 1250879848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still other people's traffic < 1250879857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (C3?) < 1250879860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :durned kids < 1250879863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ACPI power state < 1250879864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1250879865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and their durned cpu states < 1250879873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about them? < 1250879874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1250879876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, I wouldn't expect it to be processing packets like that! < 1250879888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well it is. < 1250879894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says powertop for example < 1250879894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well stop it :P < 1250879968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an urge for porridge < 1250880035 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@e-6.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1250880038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw. I can listen to all wlan traffic outside campus as well. Since it uses an open network, and I can see a few other ones in some of the buildings. < 1250880048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume I could just as well listen to it outside < 1250880055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C'mon, look up the policy. < 1250880062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, can't find one < 1250880063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm absolutely certain it's forbidden < 1250880066 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1250880067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other policies yes < 1250880069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not wlan ones < 1250880079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, they all say "Ohh use HTTPS for sensitive stuff since it's open" < 1250880085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also "Don't spy on others' traffic < 1250880086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1250880114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, only reason I was doing this was debugging the silly wakeups < 1250880124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru < 1250880140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disable "Why don't we look at EVERY PACKET in our CPU dreams!" mode. < 1250880142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1250880148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they're like sheep. < 1250880154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1 packet jumping over the firewall..." < 1250880162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean promisc mode? well, it wakes up even in non-promisc mode it seems < 1250880162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two packets jumping over the firewall..." < 1250880164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*zzz* < 1250880176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so I guess the wlan hardware is just rather stupid < 1250880184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See ↑ for the TRUTH. < 1250880270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, snap4's mapping of rubout to delete is stupid < 1250880273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one, it does BACKSPACING < 1250880278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two, it's where caps lock is < 1250880282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least put it on tab or something < 1250880284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, managed to save the world? < 1250880290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the freeze < 1250880290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :installing ubuntu 6.06 server < 1250880352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wipe the 6GB IDE harddrive, fuck yeah! < 1250880354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love retro. < 1250880429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YOU ANCIENT UBUNTU INSTALL < 1250880440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Because you chose the US as your location, obviously I should only give you the option of US timezones." < 1250880480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why did you select US as location then < 1250880493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i wanted the "standard" stuff < 1250880498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of some iffy UK localisation < 1250880507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1250880532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses kismet to scan for wireless networks at home
< 1250880534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1250880548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clients seen so far. Lots of access points though < 1250880613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love unprotected wifi < 1250880624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like free love, but more relevant to today's post-bloggist twitterbook age. < 1250880639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may a thousand baby instant messages bloom. < 1250880681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I somehow feel that analogy is not 100% correct < 1250880725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i spent a few seconds trying to reply to that < 1250880726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up :P < 1250880783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1250880806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches bill o'reilly get all worked up about jon stewart
< 1250880809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cute! < 1250881593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smartwikisearch.com/ < 1250881594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1250881650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["Scheme" should designate two separate but compatible languages: "small" and "large" Scheme]] < 1250881653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck. No. < 1250882042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let's see. < 1250882045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs xorg
< 1250882328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[If you repeatedly dismiss the screen saver less than one minute after it starts on Windows Vista or later, the operating system says, "Oh, sorry. I thought there was nobody there, but obviously there is. You're probably reading an information-dense document or using your laptop as a flashlight or clock, and you want the screen to stay on even though you aren't generating any input. I'll hold off the screen saver for a little while for you."]] < 1250882334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Windows being clever and usable. < 1250882336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's new. < 1250882710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are startx and xinit in different packages from xorg usually? < 1250882721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems do < 1250882723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1250882736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on distro < 1250882749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ubuntu 6.06 at least < 1250882772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"error opening security policy file" X_X < 1250883034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kismet is really fun < 1250883051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seriously, someone who even can't use WEP? < 1250883057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I'm at hope < 1250883163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "at hope"? < 1250883175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1250883176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :home < 1250883176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1250883179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, most people don't care. < 1250883219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, not all that many people hijack wifi; secondly, it probably won't affect them even if they did; thirdly, the annoyance of configuring it and all computers they have is huge. < 1250883742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah, they don't even seem to do anything interesting ;P < 1250884017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, what is the package to install to get "just make x working, dammit" :P < 1250884039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I think I found the optimal frequency to use. No one seems to use channel 8 < 1250884053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one using channel 7 and one using channel 9 < 1250884059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thinking of overlap here) < 1250884062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a draft-n router, AnMaster, worrying about speed is kind of pointless. < 1250884068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 7 will overlap, iirc., < 1250884068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while pretty much everything else is dense < 1250884089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, I'm on 1 atm and I get another strong one on it in my room < 1250884089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1250884095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and poor connection < 1250884108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/21/steampunk-mouse-now-with-100-per-cent-more-skull/ A mouse made of brass and a sheep's skull. < 1250884109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes I'm going to try another to see if I get disconnected randomly less often < 1250884111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1250884194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.instructables.com/id/Mouse-Mouse!/ A mouse made out ofa mouse. < 1250884204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reminds me of that computer mod; some furry animal. < 1250884217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, taxidermy + computing; when will you cease to entertain? < 1250884245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of a < 1250884266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here: http://www.instructables.com/id/Compubeaver---%3E-How-to-case-mod-a-beaver---in-29-e/ < 1250884345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, old < 1250884351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1250884366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the idea of using the mouse mouse with the beaver 'puter isn't old! < 1250884380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1250884479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is not the page you're looking for." < 1250884481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got that < 1250884485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from flickr < 1250884486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1250884733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/20/video-concert-hands-teaches-you-to-play-piano-whether-you-want/ < 1250884733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg want < 1250884923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, seems awkward < 1250884931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't care awesome < 1250884945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Locked at the wrists onto a sliding mechanical bar" < 1250884946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1250884958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that prevents playing properly anything advanced I guess < 1250884968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1250884990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, basically I'm saying you need to move hands pretty much freely to play a piano well < 1250885003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it moves them for you < 1250885038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the bar too? and what about taking a whole octave in one hand < 1250885039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1250885042 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1250885046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have too small hands for that anyway < 1250885048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1250885056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1250885058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brb < 1250885079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what package do i need to install on ubuntu to get the base xorg env? < 1250885088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I don't know offhand < 1250885090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xorg-server plus xinit plus xfonts-base didn't work < 1250885093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me run an apt-cache search < 1250885095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't find a security fil < 1250885095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1250885099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is ubuntu server 6.06) < 1250885105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but i assume it hasn't changed that much) < 1250885149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... xorg-server doesn't even exist in 9.04, although there's an xserver-xorg < 1250885157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, right < 1250885159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xserver-xorg < 1250885183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_OS / talk about non-notable < 1250885197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver-xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver- < 1250885198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) < 1250885200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xserver-common (3 7) ) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) < 1250885206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a list of dependencies for xserver-xorg on this version < 1250885217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I installed xserver-xorg < 1250885221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and xinit < 1250885224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and xfonts-base < 1250885235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it errors out trying to find a security file < 1250885246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what specifically is the error? < 1250885250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"error opening security policy file /etc/X11/xserver/SecurityPolicy" < 1250885308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, apparently a default security policy is installed in /usr/share/doc/examples/SecurityPolicy < 1250885321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need to copy it to the right location yourself, it's a bug or weirdness or something < 1250885334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still today, or just 6.06? < 1250885341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a result of a Google search < 1250885349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not today < 1250885351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not still today, as the required file doesn't exist on my laptop < 1250885376 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dated June 1st, 2006, so 6.06 seems very plausible < 1250885393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the version before < 1250885399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, other problems now, < 1250885409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it quits after showing the black/white and X cursor < 1250885412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevant error might be < 1250885429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matching visual for __GLcontextMode with visual class = 1 (32774), nplanes = 4294967295 < 1250885432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeated four times < 1250885434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the one befor that < 1250885441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't open RGB_DB '/etc/X11/rgb' < 1250885442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*before < 1250885452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have an OpenGL-capable driver installed for your graphics card? < 1250885466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the sort of thing server installs don't come with by default < 1250885482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My graphics card is the VirtualBox thingy. < 1250885487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it shouldn't need OpenGL. < 1250885491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should it? < 1250885521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the error message above implies it was trying to use OpenGL, possibly as a fallback due to a missing driver < 1250885527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should get a wlan card that supports external antenna and then make a cantenna? < 1250885537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or just buy an antenna < 1250885556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, but I need one where I can connect an external one < 1250885572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can buy USB wireless cards that have big-ass antennas < 1250885581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, new ubuntu desktop versions work fine, yet installing virtualbox guest additions changes the way the display works < 1250885591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gives resolutions >1024x768 < 1250885595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as long as it works with kismet and aircrack-ng... < 1250885598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh an idea < 1250885600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1250885600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously there isn't a driver in ubuntu for my SPECIFIC "card" < 1250885602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it does < 1250885602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mount on top of car < 1250885604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's uh < 1250885606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atel or something < 1250885613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and look cool < 1250885640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: installing a driver for the card that the server thinks it's connected to is likely to help, I suspect < 1250885688 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1250885725 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.104.230.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1250885730 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fthrp < 1250885732 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid interweb < 1250885738 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, generic svga < 1250885746 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely installing xorg installed those < 1250885749 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it DID install xorg drivers < 1250885752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though perhaps not opengl ones < 1250885820 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>ping<< < 1250885838 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm showing up in tunes logs at least < 1250885964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: there's a load of xserver-xorg-video-* drivers < 1250885973 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and xserver-xorg installs a fuckton < 1250885977 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably including generic ones < 1250886004 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1250886072 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1250886077 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's perhaps the rgb database < 1250886088 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the gl things may just be warnings < 1250886089 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs xrgb
< 1250886117 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait < 1250886125 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"startx" will exit after the desktop if you have no WM, right? < 1250886142 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what the fuck... < 1250886143 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, IIRC it just pops up a server and does nothing < 1250886145 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ apt-cache search twm < 1250886145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1250886146 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ < 1250886154 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with icewm < 1250886162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: twm's in my repo, at least < 1250886171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you done an apt-get update ever? < 1250886171 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, thus "what the fuck". < 1250886179 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I'll do it again. < 1250886180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1250886192 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe they stripped down the 6.06 repos < 1250886194 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to being ancient and all < 1250886197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1250886202 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would suck. < 1250886216 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i get a count of all packages in the db? < 1250886252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, I'm able to see 44 networks with kismet from various points in two rooms < 1250886259 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: really? < 1250886262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any one place: usually 4-6 networks < 1250886264 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must live in a very big city < 1250886271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, no, small town < 1250886271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1250886272 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, dense city, at least < 1250886278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is Sweden remember < 1250886287 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: clearly you're getting wifi cancer < 1250886288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, an area of free standing houses < 1250886290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1250886290 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from all those uber-strong routers < 1250886296 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, in one place, 4 networks? < 1250886304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most are quite low signal level < 1250886305 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see like 4 networks from this machine < 1250886311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1250886316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt I could connect to them < 1250886321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a good external antenna < 1250886323 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can usually see two from here, sometimes one < 1250886330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, where are you then < 1250886340 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ais523: ?) < 1250886341 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, in my house, in a suburb of Stockholm < 1250886344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :small/mid-sized town (20 000 inhabitants) < 1250886351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far from Stockholm < 1250886358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not too far from town center < 1250886360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: I don't know < 1250886362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 45 networks now < 1250886366 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: darn < 1250886370 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently my suburb has a population of 14 250 < 1250886374 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to swedish wikipedia < 1250886376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1250886378 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: name a common but not so common package? < 1250886399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSID: Sakersurfzon_Bredbansbolaget < 1250886402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try squeak-vm < 1250886407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encryption: No < 1250886411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is hilarious < 1250886416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, agree? < 1250886421 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Please Would Religious People Stop Trying to Defend Their Beliefs Logically-Related WTF of the day: "I think one thing I have learned regarding atheists is they try and put so much logic into their arguments that common sense and reason get thrown out the window.") < 1250886429 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen similar things < 1250886434 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not there < 1250886436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1250886436 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll ask #ewwbuntu < 1250886441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the English speaking people < 1250886448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that SSID translates to < 1250886464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wardriving in Centralen (the Stockholm Central Station) with my DS was funny < 1250886465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secure surf zone_NameOfMajorISPInSweden < 1250886472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, how many networks? < 1250886483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I picked up a WLAN network from a passing train just now < 1250886484 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like 40 or so < 1250886487 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: haha < 1250886489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one beacon signal < 1250886490 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chase the train < 1250886496 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I NEED TO TWEET THIS!!" < 1250886510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, like 1 km away already < 1250886556 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Again with the probability theory. […] That is just what it is a theory." ;_;) < 1250886576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, going to some other rooms to check for more networks there. Oh and this was all from second floor indoors (may try outdoors tomorrow, is currently raining heavily, like most of today) < 1250886607 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate #ubuntu with a fiery passion < 1250886645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1250886696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: #ubuntu is generally rather useless for anyone but a newbie, although I don't mind it < 1250886704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I go there sometimes to answer questions, but I've never tried asking one < 1250886724 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be an #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer < 1250886734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my client actually autolinked all that < 1250886738 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine also :P < 1250886738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, presumably joining it will fail < 1250886742 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas. < 1250886747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Error] #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer is currently unavailable. < 1250886750 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, if I repeat my now long-forgotten question now, the idiot brigade will start - < 1250886765 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BE PATIENT! WAIT UNTIL QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS PLANT THE NOW-LOST MEMORY OF YOUR QUESTION IN THEIR MIND SPONTANEOUSLY!" < 1250886792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a #ubuntu-server, I wonder? < 1250886796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a #ubuntu-1? < 1250886803 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an #ubuntu-server < 1250886809 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 6.06 is more like -345 < 1250886814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1250886826 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: unfortunately, my question is not server specific. < 1250886854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you are on a server distro, and it's likely to have a lower idiot proportion < 1250886862 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For general (not server specific) support visit #ubuntu" < 1250886868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1250886888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I suppose it is server-specific, in that it would work on the desktop distros due to being preinstalled < 1250886898 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I'll try it < 1250887011 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you said something about less idiots < 1250887012 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:35] _ruben: you're in luck .. ubuntu server doesnt have any window managers due to lack of X ;) < 1250887021 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like they use the same repositories or anything. < 1250887027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1250887036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they didn't use the same repos back then? < 1250887064 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:37] _ruben: yeah .. but its not really supported (by the server team) .. as it pretty much turns your server into a desktop < 1250887067 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION facepalm
< 1250887210 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:39] ehird_: hmm, oh < 1250887211 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:39] ehird_: universe is commented out by default < 1250887211 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:40] ehird_: how embarrassing :) sorry < 1250887285 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reinstalls from the alternate cd
< 1250887300 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they seemed very keen to get me off the server version, I wonder why :-) < 1250887368 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1250887521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1250887528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 46 networks now < 1250887545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two extra were both from other rooms at the second floor < 1250887557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no new ones from ground level < 1250888234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 networks... < 1250888372 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs Ubuntu alternate 6.06
< 1250888378 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it'll work :P < 1250888394 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1250888398 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I downloaded the non-64 bit version < 1250888398 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAGE < 1250888515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, you need 64-bit or non-64-bit? < 1250888521 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bit for snap4 < 1250888532 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since opengenera ran on 64-bit unix, albeit not x86 < 1250888542 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the 36-bit thing < 1250888548 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emulating on 32-bit would be horrifically slow < 1250888634 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads someone try to defend a literal interpretation of the 6 day creation of the universe with relativity
< 1250888639 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION laments the lack of popcorn
< 1250888704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my friends had trolling creationism forums as his favourite hobby < 1250888723 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't troll someone too fanatical, as they reject logic as a valid method of argumentation < 1250888731 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very delicate balance < 1250888736 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wasn't trolling to convince them, just popcorn-style < 1250888751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't trolling as in 'giving logical arguments', but as in 'trying to incite a flamewar' < 1250888776 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you can't do that if their response to anything opposing is "Yes, but that is not true because the Bible says so, which is simply true and therefore this argument is over." < 1250888871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since we seem to have a habit of swapping these... merged together a few pictures from Helsinki recently, http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/ < 1250888979 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, in helsinki all buildings aren't made out of awesomely transparent glass? < 1250888989 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks. < 1250889017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are mostly from the slightly older bits of town. < 1250889024 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, before they discovered glass < 1250889033 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, invented it < 1250889057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; we don't believe in substance reuse, we always re-invent everything. < 1250889078 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1250889093 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the beginning, god invented light < 1250889125 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: anyway are you finns really that bad at driving or is that just an urban myth < 1250889126 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1250889129 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish line and all < 1250889132 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where they stop driving < 1250889142 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda seems like a cruel joke at you guys' expense < 1250889256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah some fun networks < 1250889264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know all those dlink ones ehird_? < 1250889269 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1250889270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I found one knild < 1250889277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dlink backwards < 1250889286 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you, AnMaster, I cannot comprehend this "backwards". < 1250889289 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i needed it spelling out < 1250889295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, oh? You too? < 1250889323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice pics < 1250889422 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filing cabinet, ooh < 1250889423 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filing cabinet! < 1250889440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, another rather silly is "IngetSadantNatvark" which (assuming the missing dots are added to make it "IngetSådantNätverk" which is the only probable interpretation): NoSuchNetwork < 1250889444 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1250889458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, that one uses WEP btw < 1250889474 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rename your wireless network to "(name of swedish secret services) tracking station" < 1250889481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1250889489 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instantly, everybody stops leeching wifi off everyone in the area! < 1250889499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SÄPO spårstation? < 1250889503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something like that < 1250889504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1250889509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRA < 1250889512 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or FRA Client < 1250889513 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would work < 1250889514 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1250889515 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your secret services offer spas? < 1250889515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, yeah < 1250889520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, eh? < 1250889524 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hyuk hyuk hyuk < 1250889526 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`defines pa < 1250889527 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1250889527 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define spa < 1250889529 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* watering place: a health resort near a spring or at the seaside \ * resort hotel: a fashionable hotel usually in a resort area \ * health spa: a place of business with equipment and facilities for exercising and improving physical fitness < 1250889535 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define SÄPO < 1250889536 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* The Swedish Security Service (S�kerhetspolisen, literally "the Security Police", abbreviated S�po), former name Rikspolisstyrelsens ... \ [19]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S�po \ * The SAPO (short for Samocinn� poc�tac) was the first Czechoslovak computer. It operated in the years 1957-1960 in V�zkumn� �stav ... < 1250889545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, no one said spa < 1250889549 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, someone networked an early computer! < 1250889553 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Sparstation" < 1250889560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, "spår" < 1250889561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WLANs around here currently: "anninwlan", "Tompan WLAN", "SAATANA", "wlan-ap". There are more "visible" in the other room, I think. ("anninwlan" is literally "Anni's wlan" while "Tompan WLAN" is obviously "Tomppa's WLAN"; and fi:saatana is en:devil, used usually as a swearword, like "damn".) < 1250889566 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spår = track < 1250889567 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Same thing. < 1250889570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, so that would be railway station < 1250889572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1250889580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga WOO WOO < 1250889580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you seriously mistranslates it a few times < 1250889584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1250889692 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, ubuntu instal < 1250889693 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1250889696 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just misinterpret my keypresses < 1250889771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, and there is another train :D < 1250889778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :network count I mean < 1250889793 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's complaining that I need to do noapic, despite not doing so last time. < 1250889797 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nondeterministic VMs... < 1250889860 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1250889878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, :D < 1250889887 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rebooting worked. < 1250889888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, was kernel upgraded inside? < 1250889896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, iirc ioapic in virtualbox is buggy < 1250889896 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a result, I psychologically distrust VirtualBox more. < 1250889899 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn software... < 1250889901 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, livecd. < 1250889902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only recent kernels expose this < 1250889904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, hm ok < 1250889908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, makes no sense then < 1250889919 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1250890275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about number of networks < 1250890301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc thinkpads has quite decent antennas built in. Compared to many other laptops that is < 1250890318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, far from the quality of an external antenna < 1250890406 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the x200 you get two antennas in the display area < 1250890423 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if they're in the base too or not < 1250890444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, an external, directional, antenna will always beat it < 1250890451 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only marginally. < 1250890468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, no. quite a far bit better < 1250890472 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/shrug < 1250890478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, also, this laptop must have at least two antennas, since it does support pre-n < 1250890486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that requires more than one antenna iirc < 1250890487 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*draft-n < 1250890500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, hm? < 1250890506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think they called it pre-n < 1250890515 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IEEE 802.11n - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < 1250890515 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work on the 802.11n standard dates back to 2004. The draft is expected to be published in January 2010, but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', ... < 1250890524 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always heard draft-n < 1250890528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-N yes < 1250890531 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :draft is expected to be published in January 2010,[9] but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', 'draft n' or 'MIMO-based' products based on early specs < 1250890534 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but draft-n is a lot more common < 1250890544 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ime < 1250890602 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / have I mentioned this keyboard is beautifu < 1250890603 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1250890618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, I have seen pre-N a lot more than draft N < 1250890626 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you dirty swedes hate words. < 1250890634 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swirty deeds. < 1250890643 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dirty swedes do swirty deeds. < 1250890663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, do you consider 17.5 W a lot when using kismet in channel hopping mode? < 1250890668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for battery usage I mean < 1250890675 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, probably not. < 1250890680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies between 17.0W and 17.5W < 1250890683 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if you're using the system. < 1250890691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, indeed < 1250890696 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your system will probably draw like 30W at actual full load. < 1250890703 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and like 40-50W at theoretical full load of every component < 1250890730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, well tested mostly full load, both cores busy re-compressing pngs < 1250890740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was around 25W < 1250890742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than 30W < 1250890749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is optimistic though < 1250890759 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, png compression isn't exactly a really strenuous task, nor does it exercise the GPU. < 1250890766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, that is true < 1250890773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does quite a bit of load on the cpu < 1250890783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I did it with optipng < 1250890792 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if 25W is typical full CPU load, then I imagine more like 35W for CPU + GPU load. < 1250890792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which basically brute forces the compression parameters < 1250890815 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why people bother with that. < 1250890820 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like a waste of time. < 1250890833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, possibly, intel graphics use quite a lot less power than ati or nvidia chipsets < 1250890839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1250890844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/chipsets/gpus/ < 1250890852 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not nvidia integrated GPUs. < 1250890882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, worse than intel still iirc < 1250890883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1250890886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ati was worst < 1250890889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least a few years ago < 1250890896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is even a page on thinkwiki about it < 1250890902 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the nvidia embedded gpus are good nowadays. < 1250890942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe these columns... < 1250890956 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1250890975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, kismet fails at aligning columns correctly to the column headers < 1250890988 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does your mom < 1250891001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, that's what YOUR MOM said < 1250891006 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In bed? < 1250891025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, nah, in the cage, you know S&M < 1250891036 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ice burn. < 1250891041 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(THAT'S WHAT SHE GOT.) < 1250891049 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel a sudden urge to kill myself. < 1250891053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, unknown idiom detected: "ice burn" < 1250891062 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what she said < 1250891064 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When she got one < 1250891065 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In bed < 1250891067 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: do it faggot < 1250891110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/p_view.jpg merged or is there a headless person on the street? < 1250891151 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merged < 1250891157 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without doubt < 1250891191 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O rly. < 1250891238 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya rly < 1250891567 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know how to prettyprint some xml < 1250891661 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250891678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go. Channel 13 is a lot better than the other ones < 1250892075 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel so bad about giving local variables meaningful names in Haskell :/ But I suppose I must bite the bullet and stop choosing arbitrary alphabetic sequences < 1250892110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: hmm... why do you get upset at meaningfully-named variables? < 1250892173 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hung at "unpacking the basse system", 48%. < 1250892190 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's bad haskell style; "meaningful" is the wrong name < 1250892194 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redundant, more like < 1250892210 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"n" is vastly preferred over "name", for instance < 1250892263 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I exaggerate, true. But I realized that most of the local variables in this function names like "imap", "pmap", "rmap", "rpmap", "iset", "cs", "ps", and a few hours later I'm thinking "what the hell do these do again..?" < 1250892277 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: "this function"? < 1250892278 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That many? < 1250892280 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Break it up, man. < 1250892287 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does ubuntu normally stall when unpacking the base syste,...? < 1250892288 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. well, technically two functions < 1250892290 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*system < 1250892293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: still too many < 1250892309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: installation can seem to be jammed sometimes, but that rarely happens < 1250892321 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been at 48% for like an hour. < 1250892326 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i can switch consoles < 1250892361 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum. I suppose I could eliminate the where clauses containing the names, but doing so would just clutter up the top line excessively < 1250892384 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: if the subfunction isn't directly and irrevocably related to the operations of the function it's contained within, break it out < 1250892448 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : just to give you a taste, the first three lines are < 1250892460 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1250892460 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : where (others, mainNumber) = icomponents' us 1 Set.empty Map.empty < 1250892462 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mainChar = IntMap.fromList . map (\(a, b) -> (b, a)) $ Map.toList mainNumber -- IntMap Char < 1250892464 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : otherNumber = Map.fromList . flip zip [-1,-2..] $ Set.toList others -- Map Char Int < 1250892477 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly, what the fuck are those? Type comments? < 1250892481 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, s/--/::/ < 1250892484 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either give them actual type annotations or omit them because they're not irreleavnt. < 1250892487 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of data structures. lots of boring, otherwise meaningless code < 1250892488 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*irrelevant < 1250892492 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: rather, foo :: a; foo = b < 1250892496 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo = b :: a is silly < 1250892498 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most times < 1250892503 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lols < 1250892509 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that lols < 1250892512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With short stuff like that I'd just tack it on the end < 1250892514 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those "comments" is fucking retarded < 1250892515 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1250892555 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the important partt is that its a map from Int -> Char or Char -> Int, not the types themselves. There are maps of all sorts of permutations of back-and-forthiness < 1250892568 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cries
< 1250892574 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a type signature that you apparently think is neccessary. < 1250892581 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet you replace two characters to make it specifically unenforced. < 1250892593 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite replacing it back having NO adverse side effects < 1250892602 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, it's very unidiomatic. < 1250892606 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why on earth would you do this? < 1250892653 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever, I'll change it to -- Int -> Char if it'll make you happy, but realize that there are 3 other lines with rather similar code. It is to help the type inference engine in my brain, not Haskell's. < 1250892666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is to replace the -- with :: < 1250892678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it's also badly merged; it's through the hotel room window, with a bit of camera displacement in addition to rotation. < 1250892679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making the compiler check for you that the comment is correct < 1250892684 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: i think you should stop coding haskell ;_; < 1250892685 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell can already infer it just fine, it doesn't need to be told. I need to be told. OKAY? ;_; < 1250892702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Haskell is inferring it to something else and you're being told the wrong thing? < 1250892708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The :: tells it to both you and Haskell < 1250892713 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The -- tells it only to you < 1250892731 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THANKS I DIDN'T KNOW THAT < 1250892744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be missing the point entirely < 1250892757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you intentionally make it a comment instead of a type signature < 1250892770 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing thus can only harm < 1250892798 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: you really don't get haskell < 1250892798 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said I intentionally made a comment for purposes other than keeping track while I was writing it? Making it an explicit type comment is rather silly when the first thing on the line is Map.fromList and IntMap.fromList... < 1250892807 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no u dont foo < 1250892815 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you can infer it from reading the code, why is it a comment? < 1250892816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it silly < 1250892823 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's still at 48% < 1250892827 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reset
< 1250892828 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1250892835 0 :Sneezle!n=marten@dyndsl-095-033-026-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1250892896 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, I have deleted it. end of discussion. I no longer have ambiguous names for my expressions, therefore I do not need, fucking ocmment nazis, I hope the comment mossad gets you one day < 1250892931 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, note that the code itself is similar! < 1250892956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels #esoteric is so damn negative these days
< 1250892959 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ambiguous names like pmap, imap, and rmap are not helpful, as I am dealing with *lots* of data < 1250892961 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you'd write and defend such a comment implies you should probably be trying to learn haskell... < 1250892967 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sorry, I'll never criticise doing stupid things again < 1250892982 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: break up the data. < 1250892984 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :process it separately. < 1250892989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: that was not the only example < 1250893004 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so /ignore ehird. < 1250893008 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1250893021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ruins channel comprehension < 1250893038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I just ignored myself to see what would happen < 1250893042 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can still see my own comments < 1250893046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'oh < 1250893048 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File a bug < 1250893057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1250893058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I suspect that's intended behaviour < 1250893062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: /shrug. I've always criticised stupid things: so unless you're talking about pre-2007, you're just imagining it. < 1250893062 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably because the ignore event is from comments received over the network..? < 1250893068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, IRC doesn't echo your own comments back < 1250893070 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it a feature request then < 1250893077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw, don't buy your laptop in US < 1250893087 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most IRC clients make events for network items, and just display your comments < 1250893088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay; why? < 1250893090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, 2006, what a sweet year < 1250893091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, intel wireless are crippled there on the hardware level < 1250893096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ducks
< 1250893097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, to only allow US channels < 1250893098 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should mention that the purpose of the function is creating a data structure with several elements, though < 1250893107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Are you absolutely sure? < 1250893110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems wrong. < 1250893112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes: < 1250893116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/78476-iwl3945-driver-channel-capability.html < 1250893119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1250893124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/07/27/wifi-regulatory-rant/ < 1250893133 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual data structure is data Dag = Dag (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap Char) < 1250893141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and mine, bought in EU can manage up to channel 13, but can't do channel 14 < 1250893147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Bizarre; shameful. < 1250893153 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can see, there is a lot of data that needs to be compiled together, and all of it is needed for the various functions < 1250893155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which is possible with the same model sold in Japan < 1250893164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive. < 1250893170 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it < 1250893174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and may do the same < 1250893177 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it < 1250893180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: it is perfectly breakable < 1250893202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you operate on parts of data, and there are parts that do not depend on one anothr < 1250893204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another < 1250893208 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, into a 3-tuple? gimme a break < 1250893211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition, these can be broken up < 1250893240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flarg. How do I get all factorizations of a natural number? < 1250893248 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyweh, the only efficient way to do it is to generate the index while making the component map at the same time < 1250893260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: factor(1) < 1250893277 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving..." < 1250893278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That gives one, not all. < 1250893287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, true. < 1250893299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: No! < 1250893299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting the prime factorization is easy enough. < 1250893302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: GHC does fusion. < 1250893302 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, divide it and try again? < 1250893309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can perfectly well separate things. < 1250893342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive. <-- hm? < 1250893347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :card? < 1250893353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: .......................................wifi < 1250893364 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC does not magically deforest trees and sets < 1250893366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh you mean, they have a custom one called "thinkpad card"? < 1250893368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1250893379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's just "ThinkPad Wi-Fi" or whatever < 1250893384 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it fuses lists mainly. I don't care about lists here. < 1250893396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, linux support? < 1250893427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, I think. But, the chip uses a less-dense (nanometer) manufacturing process. < 1250893430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So hotter, more power. < 1250893438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know if it does draft-n. < 1250893462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, draft n is kind of broken in iwlwifi currently iirc < 1250893490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1250893559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of which iwlagn is a part < 1250893588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YES BUT HOWEVER" < 1250893591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HAVE YOU CONSIDERED" < 1250893593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh and you need backported drivers with a few patches for kismet and aircrack-ng < 1250893607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds uh, fun < 1250893609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it works very well < 1250893623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, it also results in no more OOPS in iwlagn on shutdown < 1250893630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which otherwise happens on ubuntu < 1250893631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beware < 1250893636 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: anyway. everything you've said so far has not applied to my specific case, just aimless general ranting, so if you want to write a function that takes a [String] where, for each (x:xs), x is the child component and xs is the parent component, then convert to parent->child and child->parent DAGs in an indexing system determined by the order of characters in the initial [String], with... < 1250893639 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...negative indices applies to all those which do not have an index, please go ahead and report on the results < 1250893640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also need to get the new firmware < 1250893641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abaondon hope all ye who enter here < 1250893645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot url < 1250893646 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this keyboard makes me type slow < 1250893647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abaonaonoanoaodoaodaon < 1250893650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google < 1250893658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: seems like that is equivalent to finding partitions of a multiset < 1250893727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicates may be a complication < 1250893765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1250893768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://intellinuxwireless.org/ < 1250893773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get the new firmware from there < 1250893774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1250893783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, place it in /lib/firmware < 1250893786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work < 1250893797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the backported driver of course < 1250893808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not use ubuntu backports < 1250893818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, I guess so < 1250893821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not new enough backport < 1250893836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as in, it seems to be from 2.6.39 instead of 2.6.30 < 1250893839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually have an implementation already but it's kinda roundabout < 1250893841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1250893842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :29 < 1250893847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of 2.6.30 < 1250893848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1250893853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 versions behind! < 1250893855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hm i think a recursion handling all instances of the smallest prime each step might be the way to go < 1250893856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it might miss some < 1250893861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no... < 1250893865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that was a typo < 1250893866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1250893872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, stupid ehird and his JOKES. < 1250893876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't he know it was a TYPO. < 1250893889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still oopses with the ubuntu backports thingy < 1250893901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because any factors that don't have the same number of the smallest prime cannot duplicate each other < 1250893902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, just get wireless-compat for 2.6.30 < 1250893904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use it < 1250893905 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* now I remember, this is why I take programming advice with a huge fucking grain of salt < 1250893916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes Gracenotes < 1250893919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody knows how to program properly < 1250893923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just don't "get" you < 1250893928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(smallest is of course an arbitrary choice) < 1250893949 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I described the problem above, for your edification. < 1250893981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: if you agree to paypal me an hourly rate I'm happy to code it for you < 1250893988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, ... not my problem < 1250893993 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not that the advice is useless, it is that of course it can't apply to my case without you knowing what it is. < 1250894004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple < 1250894020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. split up all steps that possibly can be, don't think about efficiency, GHC can handle it < 1250894030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. if you process data while ignoring some other parts of data, separate this and pass it only that data. < 1250894082 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My hobo wine is being brewed! < 1250894095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: is it swig ingest drink < 1250894098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define hobo < 1250894099 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* tramp: a disreputable vagrant; "a homeless tramp"; "he tried to help the really down-and-out bums" \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * HoBO is a bi-annual, avant-garde magazine. Through collections of interviews, essays, and photo stories HoBO interviews celebrities, and other media figures. Founded < 1250894105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define hobo wine < 1250894106 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines. Low-end wines that are not fortified are usually packaged in jugs or boxes. \ [12]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_wine \ < 1250894114 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I've been following those to that greatest extent I can < 1250894124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines." < 1250894127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, Wikipedia! < 1250894129 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Currently it's just hobo wine, I have to collect the CO2 before I can carbonate. < 1250894136 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, at least have some appreciation for the inapplicability of the problem to immutable data structures, being graph-based < 1250894143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: What are you doing < 1250894151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: umm < 1250894153 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-Generator/ < 1250894158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graphs can be functional, easy < 1250894161 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a biological renewable CO2 generator :) < 1250894167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define Underload < 1250894168 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1250894172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: what do you want CO2 for? < 1250894182 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: To carbonate water. < 1250894185 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :corecursively generated IntMap DAGs can be a pain to keep track of < 1250894192 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to carbonate X where X is a water-based beverage. < 1250894196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: You could just buy some soda. < 1250894203 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: This is less expensive. < 1250894210 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, carbonated water is hard to find. < 1250894211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your time is worth $0 :P < 1250894211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody have a copy of The Monad Reader #8? < 1250894215 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nonetheless essential data to create < 1250894217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: so carbonate it yourself... < 1250894222 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1250894224 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I am doing. < 1250894231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1250894256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google monad reader #8 < 1250894257 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14]The Monad.Reader Issue 8 \ File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - [15]View as HTML < 1250894270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: still no URLs? < 1250894287 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ? < 1250894292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, was your card an 5300 AGN? < 1250894301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll be getting a 5300, yes. < 1250894307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: `google gives no URL < 1250894307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming I go with a thinkpad < 1250894309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, whoops < 1250894315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whoops? < 1250894318 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Only in certain wonko cases. < 1250894320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec < 1250894321 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google test < 1250894323 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easily Author and Administer your own Training Content, Tests, and Certification Programs Online. Test.com is Web Based Software. \ www.test.com/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar < 1250894326 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^ URL < 1250894345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ran into this 7 page thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7323042 < 1250894349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't read all of it yet < 1250894350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: anyway, seems to be the first hit < 1250894407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I always only look for "Cached" and never notice "View as HTML" < 1250894407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheers < 1250894418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's down < 1250894422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: How about getting an OS that can handle pdfs wel < 1250894423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1250894436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No OS can handle a PDF 0 bytes long < 1250894439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, anything but Windows? < 1250894442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Server's down) < 1250894442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1250894446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: quite < 1250894451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: good point < 1250894485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ touch /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ $ evince /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ Error: May not be a PDF file (continuing anyway) \ Error: PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table... < 1250894494 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most OSes don't handle PDFs at all :P < 1250894497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, it decided that it was actually a plaintext file < 1250894506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File type plain text document (text/plain) is not supported < 1250894507 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OS X being a notable counterexample) < 1250894544 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, to put all this data in a form JavaScript can easily work with < 1250894545 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to see what okular does
< 1250894548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: If OS X does, Gnome sdoes < 1250894548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does KDE < 1250894550 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, byorgey manages to do it in about 8 lines < 1250894567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1250894572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Cannot open file" < 1250894582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is interesting; it can handle misnamed JPGs < 1250894582 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: OK, I see your argument. Admittedly I'm using a pretty arbitrary definition of "OS" < 1250894591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: as in, bad extension? < 1250894594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hah, I can define pSet in one line < 1250894601 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, that's the entire error < 1250894602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION retains some dignity
< 1250894610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean jpgs < 1250894612 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1250894616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just a jpeg called "porn.jpg" when it's actually goatse? < 1250894621 0 :Sneezle!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1250894627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file(1) can tell jpegs from non-jpegs relatively reliably < 1250894636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it can handle JPEGs with a .pdf extension < 1250894636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the non-jpeg is pretending to be a jpeg for some reason < 1250894639 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably, goatse is porn, and so porn.jpg is a legit name for it :P < 1250894644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it apparently can't handle a zero-byte file < 1250894646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was about to say < 1250894649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goatse was made as porn < 1250894652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it probably isn't looking at the extension at all, it'll be looking for the magic number < 1250894663 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1250894666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the right thing to do < 1250894677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suffices on filenames are just a matter of convention in UNIX-alikes < 1250894688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and magic numbers are the usual way to identify the type of a file, even though they're unreliable < 1250894835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, hey, it's not as if we could make files objects and have them know what type they are. < 1250894836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nosiree. < 1250894838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for unix. < 1250894861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does Plan9 do it? < 1250894872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same way as unix < 1250894876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think plumbing uses file extensions < 1250894891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, never mind, his short implementation is horribly inefficient and the good one is fairly long < 1250894895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, we need MIME extensions, to annoy everyone equally < 1250894895 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not a total idiot < 1250894922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, textfile.text/plain < 1250894924 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I organize my files by MIME type. < 1250894927 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls text/plain < 1250894928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: moreover, it is actually wrong :) < 1250894933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so you suggest like mac os? < 1250894939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with creator and file type? < 1250894942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: I don't believe you, but major props if you're actually telling the truth < 1250894943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that system has many flaws. < 1250894944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as he explains further down, it only works for _sets_ < 1250894950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1250894954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, but he fixes that < 1250894959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1250894962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely argue for objects; those things we use in our programs: and it is never "magic" what type an object is. < 1250894966 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO WINDOWS, I'LL RESTART WHEN I WANT. STOP IT WITH YOUR STUPID DIALOGS. < 1250894969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's simple, direct, useful and reliable. < 1250894978 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:[ < 1250894982 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And comes up with some O(n!) algorithm or so < 1250894996 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's pretty much what I had earlier < 1250895013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was unusably slow after 9 prime factors) < 1250895019 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some way to make yourself think that you can make Windows feel physical pain? < 1250895029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: I like the restart dialog here on Ubuntu, if you choose 'restart later' it actually goes away and stays away < 1250895036 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, an app that emits suffering noises when you click a button? < 1250895052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: infect every process with a virus that churns in an infinite useless loop and that continually makes it ruin the cache < 1250895058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it accesses memory more, does more task switching, ... < 1250895063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's torture! < 1250895071 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that is convenient, but not when it pops up every 10 minutes < 1250895086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: that's the point, it doesn't pop up unless something else happens which would require a restart < 1250895102 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a regular update. I'll restart when I want to. grrr. < 1250895104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only thing that requires a restart is a kernel update < 1250895127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: good luck having a libc update apply fully < 1250895130 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in XP's opinion. I long to get my Ubuntu back :/ < 1250895131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can do it with runlevels < 1250895137 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I want Windows as an entity to suffer, but not me, the victim having to use it < 1250895137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats, you're still "rebooting". < 1250895146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh, I don't generally care about fully-applied < 1250895158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll happen at the next reboot; until then, I just have a new libc that not everything is using < 1250895158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: you should run the virus after starting a bunch of bloated programs like every Office tool, and then just leave it for an hour < 1250895178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, when it tells you it's accessing the hard drive (code that in), hit reset in the middle < 1250895181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, two hours < 1250895181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your torture is complete < 1250895186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will not disobey you further < 1250895187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure :P < 1250895197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, run a benchmark tool < 1250895199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that simulates using office, etc < 1250895202 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jeez, what happened to simple low-tech solutions like driving to Redmond and throwing bricks through the Window? < 1250895206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1250895208 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*window < 1250895208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you use the hard drive access light to see if the hard-drive was being activated < 1250895213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: it works better with a capital < 1250895218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't hurting windows! < 1250895220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just microsoft < 1250895226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, microsoft's building < 1250895233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe a microsoft employee or two < 1250895233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but, it's the Window < 1250895237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on which Windows is based < 1250895237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but it does it constantly < 1250895239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1250895241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to intermittently < 1250895249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you KNOW resetting will mess it up < 1250895261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, do this with as little ram as possibl < 1250895262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1250895263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would be fun if there was an official window it was based on :D < 1250895266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and underclock your CPU and ram as much as you can < 1250895276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: some CPUs can be underclocked al the way down to DC < 1250895285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all < 1250895288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what, 50hz? < 1250895295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, DC is 0Hz < 1250895301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never has any cycles at all < 1250895301 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: er.. I do have an ext3 partition mounted, but the tool doesn't support journaling. your advice might not turn out great... < 1250895302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yaeh < 1250895303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1250895308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's rather useless :P < 1250895312 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: disable it < 1250895314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're just torturing windows here < 1250895316 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to damage my beautiful ext3 < 1250895324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you go down to DC if you want to step through assembly code manually < 1250895328 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only I could actually boot to it, though :/ < 1250895328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without using a debugger < 1250895335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: seriously? :D < 1250895338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: seriously < 1250895342 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I wouldn't have to use Windows < 1250895347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, why can't you? < 1250895349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, that's mostly useful for testing the processors themselves, though < 1250895359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you step < 1250895361 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :driver hell < 1250895369 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1250895375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, oh? some new hardware recently? < 1250895375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: by changing the DC level from its high voltage level to its low voltage level and back again < 1250895403 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it happened updating to Ubuntu 8.10 < 1250895416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, that's old < 1250895419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has 9.04
< 1250895427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, also, restore from backup before update < 1250895427 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't touched this laptop for a while < 1250895429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and try again < 1250895444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it will tell you to back up before upgrade < 1250895453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and surely you didn't ignore that? < 1250895469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might have been in the release notes you didn't read ;P < 1250895471 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you restore, I forget? < 1250895483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, depends on how you took the backup < 1250895491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dd? rsync? tar? < 1250895502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other system? < 1250895523 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, I didn't; all the files on here are already duplicated on another hard drive, but those files don't include drivers/xorg.conf/the like < 1250895529 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ~ < 1250895536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, fail < 1250895544 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably end up doing a fresh reinstall < 1250895551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of 9.04 < 1250895553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1250895571 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes me rage so :_: < 1250895579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never backed up < 1250895582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever < 1250895596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, try arch or gentoo < 1250895601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, rolling release < 1250895604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1250895606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore AnMaster < 1250895610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a laptop ubuntu may be nicer < 1250895610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just hates non-rolling-release distros. < 1250895615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ... < 1250895622 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is HP 2133 and its fucked up driver requirements < 1250895626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, rolling ubuntu would be nice < 1250895628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, oh? < 1250895633 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note the "HP" in the name. That says it all, I hope. < 1250895638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rolling ubuntu would be un-buntu. < 1250895649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, not to me. I'm very happy with my HP-printer :P < 1250895657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, no idea about their laptops < 1250895703 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, try googling for information on ubuntu with the mininote. So many contradictory instructions, and my knowledge of Linux graphics is next to nil, particularly the workings of xorg.conf and why the heck it's not working < 1250895704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hp 2133 seems to be a netbook < 1250895706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1250895710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the one I saw at the store, I think < 1250895715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no < 1250895726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless, a ~9" screen is ridiculous < 1250895732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8.9, even < 1250895736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they call it "large", lol < 1250895740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes, new ubuntu doesn't use it < 1250895743 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. you get used to it... it's all I have < 1250895744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use hal < 1250895745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1250895748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hal will be dropped < 1250895767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not dropped < 1250895768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replaced < 1250895774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, dropped and replaced < 1250895780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka replaced < 1250895787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same end result yes < 1250895793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1250895794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't replace and not drop < 1250895798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more violent process < 1250895798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore dropped and replaced is inherently redundant < 1250895821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, redundancy! yummy! < 1250895846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q: What's odd about how Google and Amazon talk internally? < 1250895851 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inherently redundant < 1250895862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: It it it it goes goes goes goes like like like like this this this this. < 1250895864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah lame I know) < 1250895888 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to, uh, extrinsically redundant < 1250895891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, IDGI < 1250895917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful, an installation step failed < 1250895922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: redundancy < 1250895924 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hates you < 1250895934 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1250895959 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, to effectively partition both upwards and downwards dags into subgraphs < 1250896056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, I've got Internet! < 1250896154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries the 6.06 mini.iso
< 1250896157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wowzers < 1250896267 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"fe'o rodo" < 1250896303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it would be more fun if you were here without Internet < 1250896406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1250896424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1250896440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1250896599 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1250896826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1250897178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1250897288 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1250897528 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric