00:00:09 someone has been doing this for 11 years? well, the amount of effort involved does look pretty minimal, i suppose a whole years worth of this material is producible in about an hour 00:00:33 mycroftiv: Less. 00:00:38 you may have seen the guy who made it's blog (http://www.randsinrepose.com/) around the interwebs 00:00:42 it has some fairly popular posts 00:01:01 You only really need to dump IRC into comic. 00:01:03 but yeah, I'm fairly sure they just sit in an irc channel 24/7. 00:01:14 pikhq: facial expressions too i think, although that could just be good synchronicity 00:01:41 oh, and perhaps grouping lines into panels 00:01:48 * pikhq notes that Parsec makes most parsers seem trivial 00:01:49 and making sure that characters are in panels even when not talking 00:01:57 but it could just be automatic 00:02:28 it's obviously very hit and miss though, http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3931.html made me laugh 00:02:41 but quantity beats quality for sufficiently large values of quantity! 00:02:59 Meanwhile, I cannot does HTTP. 00:03:01 i laugh pretty easily, but i didnt laugh. 00:03:27 well i basically never laugh but i smirked 00:03:27 "Isn't, like, dropping connections at random a *good* thing?" 00:03:51 i think it's spigot's expression in the last panel that did it 00:04:20 -!- comex_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:08:22 does anyone know of any real organized effort to create an 'encyclopedia of the internet and internet history'? something that infuriated me about wikipedia a long time ago was the idea on the part of many editors that the internet was somehow low-status and unimportant and the culture of the internet itself was un-encyclopedic 00:09:37 encyclopedia dramatica. 00:09:45 and I'm absolutely serious. brb 00:09:47 Encyclopedia Dramatica. 00:09:53 ugg, i hate ED with extreme prejudice. 00:11:10 i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. 00:21:29 -!- ehird has quit. 00:27:14 well, ED's primary goal to chronicle internet history, but with an extra obsession of internet drama 00:27:33 encouraging it, idolizing it and creating it 00:29:57 regardless, there's definitely a need for a more scholarly approach to the topic 00:31:06 "So, what is your hobby?" "I am an internet anthropologist." "lolololololol" 00:31:17 ..u.u 00:31:40 "Ah, the AOL lol repetition. I thought that everyone had forgotten that." 00:32:29 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 00:36:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:37:28 -!- ehird has joined. 00:37:33 16:11:10 i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. 00:37:36 "ruined 4chan" 00:37:38 you lose 00:38:11 Uh. ... There was something to ruin about 4chan? 00:38:29 nostalgia shines everything 00:38:53 I thought it had always been a desolate wasteland of memes of ill taste, weird porn, and the occasional Anonymous uprising. 00:39:51 i read the start of the original 4chan thread once, was fun 00:40:08 esp. when moot got all emo and said something along the lines of 00:40:18 "you'll see in the news about the 11 year old that killed himself" 00:40:19 brief pause 00:40:21 "oh wait i'm 13 now" 00:40:25 (seriously, he said that) 00:40:33 then the forums exploded with "lol 13" 00:40:45 original 4chan thread as in on Something Awful 00:40:58 ... moot was how old? 00:41:21 13 00:41:25 in 2003 when 4chan started 00:41:29 Thought so. 00:41:41 That explains a lot. 00:42:06 night 00:42:32 man 00:42:35 grep is dumb 00:42:40 so's your mom 00:42:51 time grep -i -> 1m49.705s 00:43:01 time grep 0m0.829s 00:43:20 bsmntbombdood, disk cache? 00:43:23 no 00:43:32 i'm not that dumb 00:43:37 kay 00:43:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:44:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:44:19 RTS are rather annoying. 00:44:26 well, matter of taste... 00:44:46 ugh 00:44:51 bsmntbombdood, ? 00:44:53 fgrep does it in 2 seconds 00:44:57 that's just bad programming 00:45:13 try a non-gnu grep? 00:45:14 bsmntbombdood, fgrep is a wrapper for grep on most GNU/Linux systems 00:45:18 grep should be doing boyer-moore on fixed strings no matter how you invoke it 00:45:22 AnMaster: god you're an idiot 00:45:30 ehird, ... it is 00:45:42 grep, grep -i, fgrep 00:45:44 it is a two line shell script 00:45:50 that invokes grep -F 00:45:58 wow, you're really fucking retarded, you're proving my point here 00:46:00 aaaaaaanyway 00:46:03 ehird, no I'm not. 00:46:08 bsmntbombdood: gnu grep is probably using a lameo exponential algo http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 00:46:10 AnMaster: right, but it obviously uses a different algorithm 00:46:10 AnMaster: Uh, no. 00:46:15 bsmntbombdood, that is true 00:46:17 Seperate binary. 00:46:22 Not even a symlink. 00:46:24 CLEARLY bsmntbombdood WAS BENCHMARKING GREP -F VS FGREP 00:46:27 ls -l `which fgrep` 00:46:28 ;) 00:46:30 even though he didn't mention grep -f! 00:46:31 pikhq, depends on what GNU/Linux you use 00:46:37 ehird: only exponential on diabolical regexes 00:46:38 Gentoo GNU/Linux. 00:46:46 bsmntbombdood: yes, but slow always 00:46:50 ehird: i am searching for fixed-length strings 00:46:54 bsmntbombdood: i know 00:46:58 you didn't say anything stupid 00:46:59 boyer moore is the best algorithm, period 00:47:02 With two different md5sums. 00:47:07 ofc 00:47:08 pikhq, indeed it seems so there. was checking on my arch system 00:47:11 i was talking about grep -i time 00:47:27 * mycroftiv tries to grep the log to see what the grep everyone is grepping about 00:47:46 :D 00:48:48 night really 00:49:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:50:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:51:16 I think I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill people there. 00:51:21 god me too 00:53:31 i would be happy if the isp i'm eventually going to switch to has nice fibre optic 00:53:36 so i can't complain about isps too much. 00:54:56 I would be happy if my ISP did not drop connections at random. 00:55:04 i need moar bandwidth 00:55:14 and less latency 00:55:17 pikhq: just forward everything through ssh 00:55:23 I need an execution squad. 00:55:30 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.45.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=555 ms 00:55:30 bsmntbombdood: the internet actually gets something like half of the maximum possible latency 00:55:34 w/ the speed of light 00:55:35 ...okay, not that 00:55:38 but with a good connection 00:55:56 http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html 00:56:11 i want to connections 00:56:22 one super low latency, medium bandwidth one for web, irc, ssh, etc 00:56:29 * ehird connections 00:56:33 and another with like up to 10 seconds of latency 00:56:37 with super duper bandwidth 00:56:39 for bittorrent 00:56:40 there's no need to separate them 00:56:41 no conflict 00:56:51 bsmntbombdood: also bittorrent is p2p 00:56:55 so that latency will fuck you up 00:56:59 not really 00:58:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:58:08 ehird: actually, the best studies ive seen of modern day internet latency show that the effective latency at the application level tends to be a lot worse, because the problem is that at the application level, your total latency is determined by the *worst* latency of the group of packets involved in an application level operation 00:58:21 yeah 00:58:32 I'm just saying that you can't make a CONNECTION massively less latencyful 00:58:47 remember that page was last updated 2001 00:58:47 very true, speed of light is a lot more of a practical limit than people realize 00:58:49 so we might be even closer 00:59:17 mycroftiv: which is why voip uses udp 00:59:21 mycroftiv: I realised that when I learned that in the worst case, the speed of light limits communications to mars at something like 22 minute latency 00:59:26 best case like six minutes 00:59:34 and i was just like... well fuck space colonisation 00:59:56 LOL 01:00:00 ehird: Works quite a bit better with lunar colonisation. 01:00:05 Couple seconds latency. 01:00:19 TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system :P 01:00:19 ehird: its funny you say that, i think reasoning along those lines is actually the best resolution to the fermi paradox of extraterrestrial life 01:00:19 bsmntbombdood: why are you lolling 01:00:22 pikhq_: is it fast enough for video chat? 01:00:31 GregorR-L: I'm... not talking about TCP/IP. 01:00:33 Not going to be playing any FPSes, but should be doing fine. 01:00:36 GregorR-L: I'm talking about the speed of light. 01:00:44 Unless you have a magical protocol that goes faster than light. 01:00:50 GregorR-L: why not? 01:00:52 mycroftiv: yeah, ditto 01:00:55 >_< 01:01:00 Ansible! 01:01:04 GregorR-L: ? 01:01:29 if you mean "well just use slower things then" 01:01:30 TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system BECAUSE the speed of light is an issue. What I'm saying is we'll need a set of protocols that don't assume such low latency. 01:01:30 FUCK THAT 01:01:34 email is crap 01:01:55 space colonisation where each planet is an isolated bubble isn't an improvement 01:01:56 GregorR-L: Go back a few decades, then. 01:02:02 UUCP. 01:02:20 I wish I had hundreds of billions to blow on physicists so I could force them to figure out a loophole to the speed of light :P 01:02:21 GregorR-L: originally, the ttl field of a tcp packet was in seconds 01:02:29 who says tcp can't handle high latency? 01:02:49 bsmntbombdood: back then we sent like, oh, 30 packets at a time :P 01:02:49 bsmntbombdood: TCP can't do *half an hour* latency. 01:02:52 ehird: want to take a shot at making this a formally stated theory? "given the inherent relationship of intelligence to information processing and extrapolation from our current sample size of 1 (ourselves)..." 01:03:00 mycroftiv: no 01:03:23 and it's only 22 minutes worst case 01:03:39 bsmntbombdood: i'm afraid we can't control its orbit 01:03:44 anyway 01:03:45 best case is 3 minutes 01:03:46 6 minutes is still bad 01:03:49 whatever 01:03:53 3 minutes is as bad as 22 minutes 01:03:56 for 90% of things 01:04:05 "it seems likely that as technological civilizations advance, their needs for bandwidth and low latency connections mean that space travel is unlikely to be regarded as efficient or desirable, due to the inherent limitations of bandwidth and latency imposed on outward expansion" 01:04:06 unless you have a lot of patience and email 01:04:11 then 3 minutes is a bit less annoying 01:04:17 each planet can have a massive squid cache for web 01:04:58 the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years 01:05:03 hmm, more 01:05:14 and sms seems to be quite popular these days, that will do fine with 3 minutes latency 01:05:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:05:44 *22 minutes 01:05:51 unless you want to limit all communication to a short period. 01:06:05 anyway, yes, we could do non-real time communication 01:06:10 to repeat: the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years 01:06:16 not 100 years 01:06:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:06:26 You act as if all realtime communication MUST be with people on Earth. 01:06:27 bsmntbombdood: telephone 01:06:39 GregorR-L: FUCK isolated bubbles 01:06:45 that's not progress 01:06:48 ehird: look at sms 01:06:54 bsmntbombdood: sms is not real time 01:06:56 it's just email 01:07:09 my brother just got a cell phone...i think he's maybe spoken on it once 01:07:17 This conversation is too ehird-makes-amazingly-stupid-arguments for me to continue ... *vanish* 01:07:29 jesus christ you're all fucking retarded. 01:07:37 what i'm saying is that high latency text communication is becoming popular 01:07:59 yeah it's been popular for a while now gramps 01:08:02 the kids in the hood call it email 01:08:14 _in place_ of voice communication 01:08:17 regardless, an isolated bubble of real-time communication isn't progress 01:08:27 bsmntbombdood: yes, but SMS is also used as a surrogate real-time communication 01:08:28 IM-style 01:08:31 and you couldn't do that 01:08:43 true 01:09:11 s/a surr/surr/ 01:09:12 i wonder what kind of bandwidth you can get from mars 01:09:20 bsmntbombdood: we're talking about mars. 01:09:30 bsmntbombdood: You're limited by the FCC. 01:09:34 obviously 01:09:40 bsmntbombdood: anyway, this is theoretical limit 01:09:41 in practice 01:09:42 much lower 01:09:43 Or, rather, their interplanetary equivalent. 01:09:45 since we're not using freakin' light 01:09:49 *the the 01:09:52 (oretical) 01:09:55 so 01:09:58 latency will be even worse 01:10:07 and bandwidth will be the best of whatever can do those distances 01:10:11 prolly not much 01:10:33 thank you for idling speculating 01:10:40 but we have probes on mars 01:10:42 start googling 01:10:49 they use radio 01:10:55 and it's slow. 01:11:14 what else are you going to use besides radio? 01:11:22 gigantic fucking microwaves 01:11:31 + magic humans who can survive said microwaves 01:11:32 ...that's radio 01:11:38 well yeah technically 01:11:50 but generally we don't say radio when we mean HOLY FUCK I'M MELLLLLLLLLLLLTIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG 01:11:54 it _is_ all line of site 01:12:02 *sight 01:12:05 like, I don't point to my microwave and go 01:12:06 this is my radio oven 01:12:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:12:30 ehird: wtf are you on about 01:12:32 what the hell are we arguing about specifically? 01:12:37 mycroftiv: bunnies 01:12:39 ehird: microwave is commonly used for communication 01:12:49 bsmntbombdood: i'm talking _powerful_ microwaves 01:12:55 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 01:13:14 they're only powerful where you send them...with high gain directional antennas 01:13:21 away from the ground 01:13:21 AND WHY NOT 01:13:25 can someone please express the topic of debate in the form of a question to answer, or a statement of fact to agree/dispute? 01:13:34 mycroftiv: read yourself 01:13:48 ive been here and reading the whole time, and ive lost the thread 01:13:54 internet with mars. 01:13:58 mycroftiv: interplanetary bandwidth 01:14:08 and latency. 01:14:12 ok, but those are nouns. you cant disagree about nouns. 01:14:19 also humans, melting humans 01:14:25 mycroftiv: in this channel, we simply discuss/argue about things. 01:14:29 deal. 01:15:20 is the basic topic "will martian colonists have acceptable internet access?" 01:15:28 i think the likely answer is no. 01:15:48 if the topic is "is earth-mars communication possible" the answer is obviously yes. 01:15:51 http://selenianboondocks.com/2006/03/the-bandwidth-may-be-improving-but-the-latency-is-still-going-to-suck/ 01:16:10 mycroftiv: i assume they'll have a decent lan 01:16:23 obviously their local communications are no problem 01:16:32 the issue is making it not an isolated bubble 01:16:36 due to the speed of light, this is impossible. 01:16:41 ehird: the earth is an isolated bubble 01:16:47 Except for exotic physics. 01:16:51 yeah, but there aren't any humans elsewhere. 01:17:01 so we're not isolated relative to humans. 01:18:14 and bittorrent would still work 01:18:16 that's all i need 01:18:17 i guess i think the issues in re: mars are probably not insurmountable, but that the issues for extrasolar travel (the really interesting question imo) maybe *are* 01:18:21 bsmntbombdood: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:18:22 lol 01:18:36 if bittorrent never made any new connections, and you didn't have to share chunks, sure 01:18:53 but (a) it does and (b) they're gonna be sitting on their asses for 20 minutes waiting for your bytes to come through 01:18:54 wtf are you talking about 01:19:01 that's fine 01:19:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 01:19:08 -!- ehird has joined. 01:19:09 oops 01:20:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:27:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:29:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 01:30:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:30:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:34:33 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:38:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:40:39 -!- coppro has joined. 01:41:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:11 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:44:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:44:47 Ha! David S. Touretsky appeared on the interwebs. 01:54:28 okay that's not actually hah but. 01:57:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:00:15 -!- ehird has quit. 02:12:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:13:10 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:14:24 -!- coppro has joined. 02:24:30 -!- calamari_ has joined. 02:36:19 Hath it stabilised? 03:01:41 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:03:26 -!- coppro has joined. 03:05:25 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 03:07:41 im baking my shallot tart tatin! :D 03:19:50 -!- comex has joined. 03:28:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:19:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:27:27 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:50:20 ThinkGeek 04:50:36 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. 04:50:55 ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. 04:51:17 Not being dicks == impressive. 04:51:24 lawl 04:52:00 "So you got shit for free. Guess what? It's actually free." :) 04:52:14 haha 04:54:04 i bet shittons of people are going to start buying stuff now 04:54:09 what 05:05:55 oh man 05:05:58 i wish i had known! D: 05:09:28 me too.. i always wanted that watch that's like $600 05:13:13 lol 05:13:21 i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so 05:13:26 its my geeky duty! 05:13:39 I've gotten stuff from there for Christmas. 05:24:08 ohhhhhhh they don't sell the slide rule watch anymore 05:24:25 but they still have http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/a890/ 05:26:42 terrible 05:27:05 i'd buy it if it wasn't $600 05:27:35 also why 35 degrees north 05:28:17 why not? 05:28:34 is there even a major american city at that latitude 05:28:46 35 degrees north is where japan is 05:29:06 also oklahoma city 05:29:08 and just north of LA 05:29:18 Memphis too 05:29:26 right, but that's not why the watch uses 35 05:29:52 that's so northern hemisphere-centric 05:29:52 anyway it's not that big of a difference 05:29:52 ha yes 05:29:58 practically the fucking 05:30:04 centre of gravity of all the big japanese cities 05:30:17 just south of nagoya 05:30:42 osaka and tokyo and split the difference 05:30:45 it should work anywhere in japan, and, for that matter, anywhere in the states (except alaska) 05:31:01 hokkaido goes up to the 40s! 05:31:25 and the islands down to 24ish 05:31:40 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 05:32:28 http://filthyphil.tumblr.com/post/154985575/dont-act-like-youve-never-seen-a-two-legged-cat 05:32:29 D: 05:46:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:47:23 -!- augur has joined. 06:05:07 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:09:37 -!- calamari_ has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:09:49 -!- calamari_ has joined. 06:11:50 -!- Tenacity has joined. 06:19:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:45:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:11:19 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Reconnecting"). 07:11:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:19:48 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 07:31:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:40:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:47:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:44 ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:44 hey, xkcd is writing about me, or something. 08:16:10 yay, girl genius won a hugo 08:17:25 anyone can recommend a piece of music, preferrably for organ, that fits in three octaves? 08:20:52 lament: your best bet is small bach keyboard works - check out the inventions and sinfonias 08:21:32 i can check some of my sheet music right now i guess to see if thats accurate, im pretty sure that range isnt too far off 08:22:31 yeah 08:22:44 some of them ought to work 08:24:21 4 octaves would be a lot more comfortable, but i think a fair number of small pieces fit into 3, or can do so with only trivial transposition of an occasional bass note up or something 08:37:41 lament, context? 08:37:51 as in, what to grep for 08:38:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 08:40:20 mycroftiv: yeah 08:40:30 but i want something more :) 08:45:50 lament, you want a small keyboard? Not enough space for a full length one? 08:46:02 (as I can't find anything relevant in scrollback) 08:46:34 my macbook already has a keyboard 08:46:49 lament, I meant, musical keyboard 08:46:50 :P 08:47:11 as in, electrical piano with MIDI over USB or such 08:47:45 here, shitty playing, but proof of concept that it can be done: http://filebin.ca/dmfhkb/bachprelude.mp3 08:47:55 i'm playing that on my keyboard 08:48:27 lament, *playing on macbook keyboard*? 08:48:27 hm 08:48:44 pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music 08:48:46 GregorR maybe 08:48:48 not sure 08:50:07 probably me 08:50:17 pretty sure it was me :) 08:50:52 lament, ah 09:02:47 and me 09:02:56 about a year earlier 09:03:06 he thought no one would remember and ripped off my idea 09:05:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 09:06:32 oh desktop keyboard 09:07:44 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:10:34 no, laptop 09:13:59 -!- oklokol has joined. 09:15:36 the chromatone is still fucking sexy 09:15:42 http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/8/chromatone-t312.jpg 09:15:50 i'm sure i'll end up buying one eventually 09:16:32 :o 09:16:32 omg 09:17:10 unfortunately it uses javko 09:17:14 janko 09:18:13 and i have a b-system accordion 09:19:23 lament, wow 09:19:27 (that picture) 09:20:00 it is like an electrical accordion? 09:20:20 sort of, but different layout 09:20:31 arguably, worse 09:20:46 I know next to nothing about playing accordion 09:20:56 even if you know piano its a bit tricky 09:21:10 I do play piano. (not professionally, just for fun) 09:21:12 the button/chording system adds a whole new element 09:21:43 mycroftiv, so for someone who can manage a bit on piano and on acoustic guitar: How does that thing work? 09:22:02 accordion? well, its basically a keyboard that you play the melody on, then buttons that set the accompanying chords 09:22:05 you press the keys, and it makes sounds 09:22:22 hm 09:22:35 mycroftiv, setting chords? you don't play chords the "normal" way? 09:22:56 so it's like you have a fixed set of possible chords? 09:23:03 yes, which is retarded 09:23:08 not all accordions are like that, though 09:23:21 if i ever get an accordion, it would need to have the same layout on both sides 09:23:28 lament, well... what about classical acoustic accordion. 09:23:30 such accordions exist too 09:23:38 the thing used for folk music and such 09:23:51 but usually, yeah, you have a set of chords 09:24:02 lament, how extensive is that set? 09:24:17 e.g. for each key, you have a major chord, a minor chord, an alternative root for the major chord, a major seventh, a diminished chord 09:24:29 hm ok 09:24:34 pretty useless if you want to play classical on it 09:28:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:28:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:45:48 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 09:53:44 lament: not all accordions are like that, though <<< most ones i've seen have both melodic and chord bass options 09:54:56 same layout on both sides? cool, i might even consider playing one 09:55:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:55:28 they're ridiculously expensive though 09:55:30 but yeah 09:55:44 the coolest layout seems to be the russian one 09:55:56 all the accordions i've seen have cost a ridiculous amount anyway 09:56:05 it works like a piano - higher notes are downward on the right hand and upward on the left 09:56:30 so it's as if the two keyboards were two halves of the same keyboard 09:56:44 well, usually i'm against all that isn't symmetric, but that would already be better than piano, so i don't mind 09:57:15 other accordions have the keyboard mirrored, so higher notes are downward on both hands 09:57:44 hard to say wihch is better 09:57:44 right, i'd probably prefer that 09:57:49 oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! 09:57:56 also i don't know about "better", i'm all about purity 09:57:57 :P 09:58:02 actually yeah, this one is probably better 09:58:11 mycroftiv: the tritone is my favorite interval 09:58:20 since the scale patterns are the same with both hands 09:58:25 yeah 09:58:57 that's somewhat annoying in piano, but it makes up for it because there's not explicit split 09:59:08 and also in that i've already learned the patterns 10:00:50 shit, if i get a second laptop 10:00:55 i could do that with two laptops 10:01:05 sounds yummy 10:01:36 although i already hate all keyboards for being completel antisymmetric anyway 10:01:36 y 10:02:06 oklokol: a lot of that asymmetry is inherent in how we build music out of mathematical ratios 10:02:30 by which i mean the shifts to the right on different rows are completely random 10:02:41 mycroftiv: do you mean the split of the octave, or what exactly? 10:03:13 well, there are a lot of elements, this is my particular field of professional expertise, so what level of detail do you want in the answer? 10:03:33 on an adequate level! 10:03:34 maybe you should express what you mean by 'antisymmetric' in terms of keyboards, i dont follow what you mean yet maybe 10:03:37 oklokol: they're close enough on my macbook that it doesn't botehr me 10:03:54 oh, do you mean keyboards, not keyboards? 10:04:03 oklokol: think of it like the different sizes of frets on the guitar :) 10:04:04 computer keyboards, not piano keyboards? 10:04:14 mycroftiv: i simply mean the difference in shift between the two lower columns is different than it is on the first two 10:04:24 lament: hah :P 10:04:31 mycroftiv: computer. 10:04:37 ok, well i was miscontexted 10:04:45 i don't like the piano keyboard either, though. 10:04:45 i need a good way to control volume 10:04:47 i thought you disliked the asymmetery of the musical keyboard 10:04:53 because i'm not very fond of the major scale 10:05:17 so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? 10:05:30 mycroftiv: i dislike the asymmetry of the musical keyboard. Accordians are much nicer. 10:05:32 (some people do, but its very rare) 10:05:33 never heard of any of those, but yes, i prefer atonal music 10:05:37 *accordions 10:05:38 lament: Use the Power Glove to control the volume. It's so BAD. 10:05:44 and i don't know what serial music is 10:05:50 mycroftiv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo 10:05:54 mycroftiv: that's me playing 10:05:54 hm the solution is obviously thermins (spelling?) 10:06:02 oklokol: its music composed on the idea of treating each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale 'symmetrically' 10:06:21 right, i guess i imply that when i say atonal. 10:06:28 AnMaster: or violins 10:06:36 well, okay, no i don't know if i like atonal music 10:06:37 oklokol: not all atonal music is 'serial' - the serial school is a particular method 10:06:42 fizzie: hrm 10:06:44 lament, they sound better too. So yes 10:06:56 lament: i dont have flash enabled on this computer so ill have to check that link later 10:07:16 fizzie, power glove? 10:07:31 fizzie: i liked that joke 10:07:40 mycroftiv, use vlc or such + the command line program youtube-dl 10:07:41 AnMaster: its a pop cultural reference to a very bad movie about video games 10:07:47 the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse 10:07:58 AnMaster: The actual glove is an old (1989) accessory for the NES console. 10:07:59 anyway i need to go read random crap now -> 10:08:13 mycroftiv, ah. Well for reference I suck at popular culture references 10:08:28 AnMaster: me too, i get them all second hand, ive never seen the movie, but i know the line 10:08:47 The Wikipedia power glove page has the requisite "in popular culture" section. 10:08:56 the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse <-- hrrm 10:08:59 every pop culture reference i know, i know because ive learned it from the internet referencing it, its been like this since the 80s 10:09:00 foot controlled mice? 10:09:01 And I haven't seen it either, I just know it by osmosis. 10:09:04 could be interesting 10:09:07 I mean, in general 10:09:19 A friend here was considering getting some foot pedals for Emacs. 10:09:28 fizzie, oh? 10:09:30 :D 10:09:46 I wonder if I can use my rudder pedals for something like that 10:09:54 sounds like a half measure, how about a full pipe organ setup for emacs? 10:09:56 that's a total of three axis 10:10:03 you could play 'stallman's 3rd sonata for emacs' on it 10:10:07 yaw and each toe brake 10:10:13 mycroftiv, I take it you dislike emacs? 10:10:17 ;P 10:10:29 AnMaster: ive never even been able to learn enough of it to dislike it 10:10:33 ah 10:10:41 mycroftiv, for reference I'm IRCing from inside emacs 10:10:45 awesome 10:11:06 I tried out ERC, but it didn't really stick. 10:11:11 http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC 10:11:19 im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs 10:11:23 fizzie, indeed. There is some other irc client for emacs too 10:11:26 maybe you would prefer it 10:11:31 riece or something iirc 10:11:34 not sure about spelling 10:11:56 I think I'll keep swapping clients every few months or so; variety is good for... well, it must be good for *something*! 10:11:59 odd thing is, I find zsh bloated, so I use bash 10:12:00 though perhaps if you switch to emacs-as-os mode, then emacs becomes a nice flexible lightweight environment with nice lightweight tools 10:12:15 of course bash could *also* be considered bloated. compared to simpler shells at least 10:12:28 im a plan9 devotee, so we think everything everyone uses is bloated 10:13:00 mycroftiv, you have the power of lisp always. Admittedly this is *elisp*. So dynamic scoping. But better than vimscript definitely. 10:13:29 yes, i understand that the emacs paradigm of being a full operating environment with full reflexivity because of lisp is actually awesome, once you know what the hell you are doing 10:13:52 mycroftiv, I can customise my irc client a lot. Just write a hook in elisp 10:14:09 there are lots of places that you can hook into. Basically everything. 10:14:24 yup, i love the idea being able to modify your environment in real time as you work in it 10:14:53 (now I'm quite happy with the defaults/pre-made available options in most cases for ERC, but in a few places I hooked in my own code) 10:15:00 now,* 10:15:38 mycroftiv, anyway, while lisp is awesome, elisp isn't 10:16:23 mostly due to the dynamic scoping. But even apart from that it is quite sucky compared to scheme (I don't know common lisp, so can't compare with that) 10:16:38 bbl 10:55:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:04:04 -!- M0ny has joined. 11:19:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:19:23 hi! 11:19:25 long time no see :) 11:29:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:49:33 ! 11:50:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:56:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:02:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:06:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:13:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:21:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:24:24 -!- jix has joined. 12:45:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:48:15 -!- jix has joined. 13:06:35 -!- ehird has joined. 13:08:17 MAXIMISE RADICALNESS IN YOUR EVERY ACTION! 13:09:31 20:50:36 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. 13:09:31 20:50:55 ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. 13:09:31 20:51:17 Not being dicks == impressive. 13:09:31 i would buy thinkgeek stuff, but the last time I got something from there the import tax was like £70 13:11:13 23:59:44 ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? 13:11:14 no 13:11:16 I wasn't even alive then 13:11:20 err 13:11:22 i was one year old, rather 13:12:34 lament: how do you think using the fancy shmancy multi touch trackpad on the new macbook pros would go for musak 13:12:43 could be fun 13:13:04 00:48:44 pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music 13:13:05 yeah lament posted a video 13:13:30 ehird: i dunno, how would you use it? 13:13:44 i dunno! :P 13:13:55 would prolly work best in combination 13:13:56 especially if your hands are busy playing stuff 13:14:09 you could do, like, modulation with it 13:14:19 though that's fairly useless and not multitouchy 13:15:35 touchpad could work pretty well as a volume control, except that the hands are already occupied 13:16:06 so the only solution i see is some kind of pedal (possibly the mouse) 13:16:18 Your nose is also free. 13:16:55 "Free lament's nose, only today on #esoteric! Terms and restrictions may apply. Order valid only while supplies last." 13:18:14 lament: eh, keyboards (musical kind) have sliders and shit next to the keys 13:19:16 that' true 13:19:37 i'm not a keyboardist so i don't know how they work or what they're useful for 13:20:03 i've seen the pitch bender thing but can't imagine a use for it 13:20:40 fizzie: that would look absolutely fucking brilliant 13:21:34 pitch bending is very useful if you are trying to imitate the sounds of non keyboard instruments 13:21:59 for instance, even a well sampled synth brass instrument is going to sound quite 'lifeless' if the samples are 'straight on' pitch unless you bend into them a bit 13:22:26 for something like playing pseudo-electric guitar on a digital keyboard, the pitch bending and other 'expression' controls are invaluable 13:22:36 I think some sort of use-your-tongue-like-a-joystic things also exist. 13:22:53 i think its not 'tongue as a joystick' its breath control if im thinking of the same things... 13:23:05 but i havent kept up with all the toys so maybe there is a tongue joystick 13:23:08 01:57:49 oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! 13:23:08 no, that's the Boîte Diabolique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s 13:23:30 Quick Googling only found http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26338543/ 13:23:38 Maybe not as a product yet, but still. 13:23:42 fizzie: i'm imagining some kind of pedal contraption with a wooden frame for the mouse, s.t. when you press on the pedal, the mouse moves 13:23:42 also, the modulation is useful for pretending you have a theremin. 13:24:30 lament: uhh just hook the pedal up to the computer 13:24:35 hmm, there are things very much like the boite diabolique that are quite real, microtonal keyboards have been around for hundreds of years actually 13:24:53 ehird: that requires a pedal 13:25:07 mycroftiv: yes, ear-bleeding notes of fucked up colours. :P 13:25:09 that are locked 13:25:13 lament: mehhhhhhhh 13:25:22 lament: i'm more interested in using things directly rather than hacking them up 13:25:46 that requires buying such a pedal, if it even exists 13:25:59 lament: of course it exists, but 13:26:02 who gives a shit about pedals 13:26:04 they're conventional and boring. 13:27:09 yes, using the tongue would be much better 13:27:25 but of course the perfect solution would be a touch-sensitive computer keyboard 13:27:30 you just don't appreciate the utilisation of gizmos and gadgets 13:27:32 also, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no 13:27:38 tactile <3 13:27:52 anyway the perfect solution would be total virtual reality of course. 13:28:09 the perfect solution would be to become a lesbian. 13:28:23 sounds about right. 13:31:12 hi 13:31:43 oh god, no 13:32:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s <<< what the absolute fuck is this 13:32:42 look around you 13:32:46 it's an excellent educational program 13:32:59 well was 13:33:13 is it meant to be like some kinda bad surreal humor 13:33:27 if so, i don't get it 13:33:36 well of course you're not going to like it just jumping in like that, also the music episode isn't the best. 13:33:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 is prolly a better start. 13:34:14 so are you saying it is supposed to be educational? i'm just asking what the point is 13:34:36 Yes, oklokol. It is really trying to teach people about the twelve forbidden notes on every piano... 13:35:59 i'll assume it is, because i can't come up with another possibility 13:36:21 the boite diabolique is just filler in between segments 13:36:35 I had heard of "edutainment" and "infotainment", but "edugamement" was a new one. 13:36:49 (Not related.) 13:36:59 oklokol: srsly, just watch the maths episode, it's good :P 13:37:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 <<< okay, this is humor, even rather funny 13:37:53 err and yeah that's the math 13:44:38 oklokol: what does "err and yeah that's the math" mean :P 13:45:37 fizzie, what would those words mean 13:45:40 that it was exactly the maths episode you were talking about 13:45:47 how was that not terribly clear! 13:45:51 fizzie, containment of education/info for the first wo? 13:45:59 two* 13:46:10 the last one I have no clue about 13:46:53 Entertainment, not containment. 13:46:55 i think i have my mind wrapped around the music episode too 13:47:01 "Edutainment (also educational entertainment or entertainment-education) is a form of entertainment designed to educate as well as to amuse." 13:47:03 fizzie, ah 13:47:29 fizzie: that sounds absolutely horrible 13:47:34 fizzie, you mean like really boring programs by Utbildningsradion? 13:47:50 I think it generally is quite horrible, yes. 13:47:54 (and no clue what is the equivalent in UK or US) 13:48:04 can i see an example of it now, please 13:48:30 edulamement 13:48:32 Also "educational games" could be lumped under edutainment, but apparently there is also a (fortunately not much used) new term "edugamement" for that. 13:48:34 OH SNAP! 13:50:23 [[Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward. 13:50:24 However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009. 13:50:24 Your tweets with tr.im URLs in them will not be affected.]] 13:50:25 ha, ha, ha 13:50:35 take that, people who say "naw, a URL shortening service would NEVER disappear!" 13:51:20 im eager to find those people and say 'i told you so' also, apart from the fact that i never met any of them, and i never heard of tr.im before today 13:51:34 well then you are not the target market of my statement! 13:51:46 what's the context of this 13:52:43 umm flying people 13:52:47 zoooooooooooooooooooooom 13:52:58 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 13:53:48 :DDDDDDDDDD YAY FLYING 13:53:49 \o/ 13:53:52 "There is no way for us to monetize URL shortening -- users won't pay for it --" Really! 13:54:04 -!- ehird has set topic: :DDDDDDDDDDD FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY*!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 13:54:10 -!- ehird has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 13:54:13 -!- nooga has joined. 13:54:13 fizzie: quite 13:54:20 what? there are free url shortening services? man im gonna find that guy ive been paying $5 to every week and kick his ass 13:54:24 hey 13:54:26 mycroftiv: :D 13:56:01 is there a tool that analyzes C++ code to visualize what classes are needed for other classes to function etc? 13:56:07 man, i spend all my time on the internet, but i still live in a different world - i read stuff like "twitter's ecosystem has lots of developers" and i dont even have the vaguest clue what 'developing for twitter' even means 13:56:44 i only have a vague idea what twitter is 13:56:54 i think its a service popular with twits 13:57:16 i'm trying to get either a good ZX Spectrum assembler for the PC 13:57:16 that is my semantic assumption, at least 13:57:20 or a good binary->tape converter 13:57:36 binary->tape? what 13:57:46 .out binary assembler output -> tape 13:57:51 as in 13:57:52 .tap 13:57:52 what tape? 13:57:53 or .tzx 13:57:53 :P 13:58:44 i have no idea what those contain, i'll just stick with the assumption you want to change the file extension 13:59:12 http://www.computerbrains.com/tapformat.html 13:59:19 siimple 13:59:50 mycroftiv: i'm going to try and explain twitter and wtf "programming for twitter" means in one (1) irc line, because i'm fucking insane and hate myself 14:00:17 i know twitter is some kind of web platform for push/pull of tiny text segments 14:00:40 Yes, well, the .tap format's simple because it's pretty much just an image of the tape contents; it's not that trivial to get a binary on it so that the target system can load it from the tape. 14:01:40 fizzie: but if you have appropriate binary 14:02:02 Yes, but you still have to find out how the binary is stored on the tape. 14:02:26 The "data" in that format is just timings for pulses, not binary data. 14:02:52 Anyway, I would have to guess there are several existing programs to do it. (I last used one some seven years ago and don't remember the name.) 14:07:45 I guess it was that WAV-PRG one, though I have no idea how speccy-friendly it is. 14:14:51 I'm guessing ehird's task of explaining what Twitter is made him implode. 14:15:15 I managed to do it in five IRC lines but just /msg'd it to mycroftiv since, as nobody cares, I decided to bore as few people as possible 14:15:26 Ah. 14:15:30 Now do it in one Tweet. 14:15:41 That's, what, 140 characters? 14:15:45 yep 14:15:49 i'll try, with the help of OS X's summariser 14:16:00 but every piece of info in those 5 tweets is required to understand why 14:16:01 as opposed to what 14:17:26 * ehird condenses to three paras 14:19:42 Oh, a "why" explanation for twoodler would be nice. That's something I've been asked, and never been able to answer. 14:20:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:21:20 I think I can get it down to two IRC messages: what-with-a-bit-of-why, and why 14:21:23 a tweet's pushing it a bit 14:21:35 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:21:49 Two IRC messages is not too shabby either. 14:27:48 almost got it in two IRC messages 14:29:12 fizzie: what's the max irc message limit again? 14:30:50 512 bytes, but two are taken by the potential \r\n at the end, and then it depends on how long the command is; on-channel "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" eats, what, 19 bytes or so. 14:30:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:31:17 so 495 14:31:31 493 and 508 atm 14:32:25 got it! 14:32:42 fizzie: and now, I will attempt to explain what Twitter is and why it is in two IRC lines. 14:32:45 You see all tweets from people you follow. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: people carry out conversations through it, etc. Basically, it does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). Also, mention people in your tweet and it shows on one of their tabs, even 14:32:46 Importantly, it's pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; though you get messages as they're posted and can reply then, it can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically in this way (unlike IRC in the usage of it (not technically), of course; shares facets though). One thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics proceeded by #) - not channels because messages don't have continuity; just groupings of messages about the same thing. By searching, you can scan th 14:33:02 bleh 14:33:05 fizzie: don't bother to read that 14:33:09 fizzie: you didn't account for the name 14:33:14 the :ehird@blahblahshit 14:33:21 * ehird wittles it down further 14:34:18 Oh, right. Since it's not in the command, it's just in the messages forwarded by the server, which of course have the same length limit too. 14:35:17 fizzie: let's try this again 14:35:20 Tweets are sent out to followers. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: conversations through it, etc. It does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). 14:35:20 Importantly, pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; you get messages as they're posted and can reply then; can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically here (unlike in the usage of it (not technically) too, ofc; shares facets though). Thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics after #) - not channels, messages don't have continuity; groupings of messages about the same thing. 14:35:26 yay 14:36:25 Congratulations. 14:40:05 fizzie: that's sort of like saying "congratulations on your brain enema". 14:40:25 one thing short form writing is not for is long explanations :P 14:47:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:55:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:00:30 English is like magic! 15:01:20 um 15:01:23 about the length there 15:02:11 server sends somewhat like this to other clients: 15:02:18 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah 15:02:22 unless I misremmeber 15:02:35 and iirc the length limit of 512 applies *from server* too 15:02:38 Do you deliberately ignore lines that say what you want to say? 15:02:42 again unless I misremember 15:03:47 ehird, I was just doing log reading like you do. since obviously you think this is a good idea. I would assume you want the same applied to yourself 15:03:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:04:13 you do try awfully hard to be obnoxious, don't you 15:04:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:05:23 http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/toshiba-tg01 // the 1GHz phones are here! 15:05:54 ehird, I tried to be kind. Maybe assuming that you like others doing what you do yourself was wrong. 15:06:20 golden rule and all that. obsolete clearly :P 15:12:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:17:44 There's a rumour that Motorola's building two keyboardy Android phones; the second one ("Sholes") might have a 854x480 display (so 266 DPI) and built on the TI OMAP3430; that's a 600 MHz ARM + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430 MHz TI C64x DSP core. 15:18:54 It's no gigahertz, but still. Google's been promising that later releases of that "NDK" native-code development kit will allow linking with the OpenGL ES 2.0 and audio libraries. Currently I thinki it's just libc+libm and all "interesting" parts have to be done with their JVM code. 15:19:22 fizzie, how large is the screen then 15:19:34 "45.72 mm by 81.34 mm". 15:19:41 kay 15:19:43 None of this is very confirmed information. 15:19:51 anyway 15:20:12 *waits for dual core processors in phones* 15:20:53 You know 15:21:02 The other Motorola thing, "Morrison", is (maybe) going to be some sort of lower-end device, with a 480x320 screen and the "default" 528 MHz ARM that's in the Hero and G1 and whatnot. 15:21:47 Well, there's already three cores if you count the CPU, GPU and DSP. (I doubt the DSP is very application-accessible, though, and I don't know how much OpenGL ES 2.0 does programmabilities in shaders and such.) 15:22:05 what is that "powervr" thing 15:22:29 as in, what brand makes them and such 15:22:35 never heard of that gpu product before 15:22:49 or is povervr the brand? 15:22:50 Well, PowerVR makes them. It's very common for mobile 3D. 15:23:06 Apparently a "division of Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic)". 15:23:11 ah 15:23:21 "in use in many high-end cellphones including the Apple iPhone, Nokia N95, Sony Ericsson P1, and Motorola RIZR Z8" -- quite a list. 15:24:54 Though the 535 used in the iPhone 3GS does double as many (28 vs. 14) millions of polygons per second as the 530 model. 15:25:00 so I still haven't finished logreading yet! 15:25:01 02:05:17 so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? 15:25:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:25:06 i think i've heard some schonberg 15:25:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 15:25:13 and i seem to recall it was a lot better than any other classical i've heard. 15:26:49 Schönberg had different "periods" in his composing, to begin with he wasn't atonal. iirc 15:27:19 I'm no expert on Schönberg though 15:28:28 after a brief googling i conclude that indeed it is awesome 15:29:09 also the power glove was ALMOST awesome 15:29:25 but the buttons should have been where you'd make a fist 15:29:28 so you can use one hand 15:30:27 02:11:19 im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs 15:30:27 i think i use proprietary software just to annoy stallmanites 15:31:09 wrt the emacs as environment stuff, emacs is a bad lisp os 15:31:20 that stupidly focuses on one widget, the text editor 15:36:13 ... Emacs, minimalist? 15:36:31 It's a freaking Lisp OS. 15:37:40 more minimalistic than Emacs does not imply much minimalism. 15:38:04 Oh, "more minimalistic than emacs". 15:38:07 I misread that sentence. 15:38:21 "More minimialistic, like Emacs." 15:40:19 Hahahah. "Tea Party" member starts a brawl in a town hall during a health debate, gets injured. He's now asking for donations, since he doesn't have insurance. 15:45:02 :D 15:45:09 I'll donate minus dollars. 15:46:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:46:45 I'll donate exactly one socialist dollar. 15:46:53 (aka €) 15:47:26 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:48:07 btw, http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/ 15:48:12 very interesting 15:48:20 e.g. selections are a submenu in the right click 15:48:28 there aren't any global menus, just right clicking 15:48:36 and the menus have text input and other things 15:48:42 sort of an interface unto themselves 15:48:45 *onto, whatever 15:49:25 and ofc it was the first OS with text antialiasing... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/RISCOS_4_scr.png 15:49:43 even subpixel, says wikipedia 15:50:04 pretty awesome when you consider that they also invented ARM 15:51:01 the ui looks pretty wimpy to me. 15:51:04 I want to make an esolang that resembles an alien language 15:51:10 olegfink: "wimpy"? 15:51:18 it is no doubt a good WIMP, but still a wimp 15:51:18 what an awful way to classify a gui 15:51:28 "it looks, easy, and, and, usable and wimpy" 15:51:36 (yeah yeah i get it) 15:51:37 (joking) 15:51:54 ehird: as in tuomo's definition, windows, icons, menus and pointer 15:51:57 i know 15:52:04 olegfink: anyway it was released in 1988 15:52:05 so 15:52:14 olegfink: but there are interesting details 15:52:18 some of which I mentioned 15:52:20 http://github.com/asiekierka/2D-Sandbox/tree/master - something i've been making 15:52:20 that no other OS has afaik 15:52:55 (asiekierka figured out how to use git?) 15:53:21 sort of 15:53:27 not much but a bit, yeah 15:53:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE (and wimpy ui's) *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:54:07 I hereby ban asiekierka from modifying the topic. 15:54:16 -!- ehird has set topic: flaught http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:54:34 ehird: indeed, but too small differences and too late. oberon ui has more chances. 15:54:43 * pikhq changes asiekierka's topic to: main = getArgs >>= parseFromFile toplevel . head >>= either print print 15:54:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric is now unofficially #ehirdland | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:04 stop, it, asiekierka 15:55:07 What 15:55:07 olegfink: did I say it's the best UI ever? 15:55:13 i just said that it has some interesting aspects 15:55:20 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:40 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:44 I _HATE_ you 15:55:48 Pony. 15:56:11 yeah, by the way, does 'fs' in 'hostfs' stand for filesystem? 15:56:25 why not set +t on this channel? 15:56:35 Because no-one is ops heres 15:56:35 olegfink: (a) prolly (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics 15:56:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:46 asiekierka: apart from fizzie and lament 15:56:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:49 who have both talked a lot today 15:57:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:57:24 asiekierka 15:57:28 what 15:57:30 i'm just 15:57:30 asiekierka: Stop being dumb. 15:57:30 like 15:57:31 citing you 15:57:33 i wish you would either go away or stop changing the topic like that 15:57:37 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:57:58 Can I change the topic like that then 15:58:32 ... 15:58:41 I stab thee. 15:59:36 I ſtab þee 16:00:00 olegfink: i thought you were disappearing for a month anyway or something 16:00:39 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:00:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:00:57 ehird, my weekends aren't that long 16:01:01 xD 16:01:08 durr I'm stupid 16:01:51 but I can just shut up and pretend I'm still on vacation. 16:02:04 no :P 16:03:05 by the way, speaking of guis, k3 gui is one of the best I've seen 16:03:18 it's purely data-driven and reactive 16:03:46 iirc clean has something of the sort, haskell and ocaml still have quite some problems with frp implementations 16:03:57 k3 gui gooling helps not, plz linky 16:03:58 at least I haven't seen anything working 16:04:12 my os' ui is hilariously undecided 16:04:36 but i haven't even considered FRP, that's how much of a conservative curmudgeon I am! 16:05:35 hmm, the reference is only available as a pdf 16:05:55 that's fine 16:06:03 my OS is unannoying enough to handle PDFs smoothly 16:06:53 ehird: Really, it's only Windows that doesn't... 16:07:02 Adobe's PDF reader. *shudder* 16:07:13 linux doesn't let you view a pdf as smoothly as if it was just an html page does it? 16:07:15 ehird: what's your os? 16:07:19 olegfink: OS X 16:07:25 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:07:26 but Windows is indeed the worst 16:07:43 some examples with screenies: http://nsl.com/papers/calculator.htm 16:07:49 http://nsl.com/papers/instant.htm 16:08:00 ah an nsl dealie 16:08:02 always fun 16:08:05 olegfink: oh k3 16:08:06 like 16:08:08 k v3 16:08:17 i thought it was some fun obscure os called K3 or sth 16:08:26 heh 16:08:26 but yeah, I thought you mean the UIs themselves were FR somehow 16:08:31 the k os is called kaos 16:08:36 but it's yet to be written 16:08:38 k3's ui code looks very nice, resulting uis are still wimp though 16:08:48 You people know Scheme right? 16:08:53 yes. 16:08:57 collectively. :P 16:08:59 because, eh, they are designed to map to x11/winapi? 16:09:04 olegfink: well, yeah 16:09:07 i just mean the paradigm 16:09:13 not a criticism 16:09:17 just saying i misinterpreted it 16:09:25 olegfink: but k doesn't use native windows widgets 16:09:28 Great, then tell me whether/why (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((m (x ((((#(y))))) ...)) '(y ...)))) is valid with (m (x)) being the empty list 16:09:45 Deewiant: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html 16:09:46 :P 16:09:54 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3 16:10:01 ↑ macro definition 16:10:10 just a few pages 16:10:29 ehird: don't know enough about winapi, but probably. any way, doing an oberon-like thing in this style is even simpler, considering the implementation of acme. 16:10:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:10:44 acme? i only know it as the wonderful plan 9 editor 16:10:47 but I /definitely/ want such a UI! 16:10:50 yeah, that. 16:10:57 is that oberon-style? 16:11:07 acme's pretty damn awesome, needs a bit more discoverability though 16:11:14 you basically have to know how to do the transformation you want 16:11:17 quite, oberon also did graphics though. 16:11:52 ehird: I've read it through about 20 times 16:12:05 Deewiant: meditate a bit, try in a few other implementations 16:12:15 well, that means knowing sam (or acme's builtin text processing language which is the same) and unix/plan9 tools 16:12:18 Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? 16:12:25 olegfink: yeah 16:12:27 still 16:12:31 acme is nice if you know it 16:12:33 ehird: I'm not interested in the result, I'm interested in whether the spec says it or not :-P 16:12:50 Deewiant: yes, and if implementations disagree you need to check the spec more closely 16:12:54 To me it seems as though it only says "[the pattern variables] are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated." 16:12:56 but if they agree it's likely they're right 16:13:20 Deewiant: try SISC 16:13:29 Deewiant: it passes the extremely perverted R5RS edgecase tests, so 16:13:32 Which, to me, seems like "it's obvious so we won't go into the details" or "we don't give a shit about the details" and I'm not sure which one they mean 16:14:04 anyway, limiting the graphical options of a widget toolkit is certainly worth having the ability to code the ui in K3 style 16:14:26 Again: Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? 16:14:39 olegfink: i don't believe limitation of such things is ever neccessary 16:14:49 asiekierka: we're not answering your question because it's tedious and you ask it all the time 16:16:08 ehird: well, it's not that easy to map some more obscure gui elements to the data 16:16:18 then the paradigm is limited 16:16:33 oklokol's os/ui ideas seem to strike a nice balance, vague as they are 16:16:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:16:40 and they map quite a bit to mine 16:17:43 oklokol: basically (I'm going to be second-hand egotistical (does that even make sense?) and assume you vaguely care), 16:17:51 err 16:17:52 olegfink: 16:18:26 some data (object, whatever) is viewed/modified through the "view" of some behaviour defining a ui element 16:18:27 ehird: SISC agrees with mzscheme 16:18:39 and this directly manipulates the underlying data reference 16:18:39 But I don't care, I want to know where the hell they're getting this from 16:18:50 so you can take out the object and give it a new interface and they sync up 16:19:04 and you could e.g. 16:19:04 be running a rotate view on an image, 16:19:09 then take out the underlying object and put it in a zoom view 16:19:11 then set a zoom 16:19:15 and if you used the rotate view some more 16:19:21 the zoomer would update according to the new underlying object 16:19:35 that sounds somewhat close to MVC to me. 16:19:42 olegfink: it's not, though 16:19:48 it's far more functional/non-destructive 16:19:57 and the "views" are much more lightweight 16:20:14 it's very close to directly manipulating the object 16:20:23 it's just that the viewing/manipulation is abstracted away 16:20:24 the only reason frp works in k3 is that it has a very simple type system, doing what you're proposing probably requires much more 16:20:34 no, this could work trivially with dynamic/duck typing 16:20:44 you just need objects 16:20:47 K does that, but only for a string repr.: 16:21:07 but yeah, you basically making UIs by composing mini objects with abstracted direct-manipulations 16:21:08 every value is assigned two functions, ..f and ..u, which is format and update respectively 16:21:21 and feed the underlying data into other things 16:21:24 thus locking things together 16:21:33 the first maps the value to string, the second does the reverse whenever the user updates the screen view 16:22:33 the problem is, again, the same as with acme: we vaguely inderstand how to do all this with plain text but not with anything else 16:22:53 i really don't think the idea i'm expressing is mvc though 16:23:27 recall the usual wysiwyg problem, you just can't present rich text on screen in an editable way so you could re-serialize it with some degree of common sense 16:23:54 yeah, what you're expressing is very close to what K does 16:23:56 hmm 16:24:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:24:13 but the thing is that you can build any sort of UI with it, because it's essentially completely generic 16:24:17 Screw this, this is UB. 16:24:22 as long as your UI maps to some tangible data, which is always good UI practice 16:25:13 damn, our ajax k ui thingy seems to be in the middle of a yet another revamp, so I can't show you that on the web 16:25:49 ...it basically doesn't do editing now 16:26:04 are you the nsl.com owner? unless there's a bunch of people who do both K and esolangs 16:26:09 which I wouldn't put past the language 16:26:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 16:28:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:28:49 well that killed the channel :) 16:28:57 no, the person behind nsl.com is stevan apter 16:29:22 ok :) 16:29:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:30:24 when i've looked into k it's just seemed like it's bogged down by corporate concerns etc and there's no real easy way to get into programming fun stuff with it 16:31:26 that program by kx that converted k code into english made an impression on me though 16:31:37 as you can see, stevan does. :-) I'm trying as well. 16:31:41 mm 16:31:49 olegfink: is my impression that k4/q sort of drifts away from this sort of stuff correct? 16:32:01 i couldn't find a free k3 binary anywhere. 16:32:19 at least it has neither ui nor the dependency/fr stuff 16:32:31 http://nsl.com/misc/int/ 16:32:42 both documentation and distributions 16:32:46 olegfink: heh, it just had to have every platform but mine 16:32:54 i know k4 supports osx, maybe k3 didn't 16:33:07 yeah, only linux, solaris and windows :-( 16:33:18 uberlame 16:33:52 i know qemu has something that might let me run the linux one natively 16:33:55 that forwards the syscalls or something 16:33:55 but indeed I find k4/q much less fun 16:34:01 or is that just same-os, different-arch i wonder 16:34:04 and iirc it only works on linux 16:34:30 osx is ought to have some linux syscall emulator 16:34:38 bit of a niche market 16:34:45 every other os (well, except windows) seems to have one 16:34:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:34:53 it doesn't need it for games like bsd, because more games exist for osx than linux, 16:35:08 and most other "linux" only software is foss and works on bsds too 16:35:13 (of which osx is one) 16:35:27 the proprietary app that supports linux but not osx is a rare thing 16:36:22 heh, then you're probably out of luck ;-) 16:36:36 then wait while we finish the web version of k3 ui 16:36:39 [[QEMU has two operating modes[2]: 16:36:39 User mode emulation 16:36:40 QEMU can launch Linux or Darwin/Mac OS X processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. Target OS system calls are thunked for endianness and 32/64 bit mismatches.]] 16:36:41 *dammit* 16:37:02 olegfink: is that like some try ruby sorta dealie 16:37:08 http://tryruby.hobix.com 16:37:44 aye, *this* functionality already works, but the ui can only do scalars and number lists 16:37:58 so it isn't that much fun 16:38:24 also one (mis)feature tryruby lacks is of course the ability to do a rm -rf * 16:38:43 that's, a feature? :D 16:38:44 because K has no built-in ways to disable harmful stuff 16:38:55 nor ruby 16:39:04 tryruby uses why's freaky deaky sandbox (real name) 16:39:11 ah 16:39:22 which is a patch to the impl and some gnarly ruby code 16:39:35 well, then I could as well. K seems to feel pretty comfortable chrootted to an empty dir 16:39:59 just do what GregorR's HackEgo does 16:40:00 `ls 16:40:01 bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23971 16:40:03 olegfink: use plash 16:40:09 it's a debian thingy that lets you totally isolate stuff 16:40:13 chrooted, random user id each time 16:40:18 syscalls selectively enabled etc 16:41:20 wonder if i could convince cygwin to compile on os x 16:41:32 (answer: no) 16:43:25 http://www.openlina.com/ iiinteresting, apparently you can make it seamlessly do linux cli apps on os x 16:43:30 (as well as gui apps on etc etc) 16:43:43 o 16:43:45 *i'll try it 16:45:04 olegfink: am I right in thinking that most of k's benefit comes from the libs rather than the core language? 16:45:11 it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to reimplement the latter 16:46:19 surprisingly, it seems that it's the other way around 16:46:29 really? 16:46:33 the semantics don't seem overly complex. 16:46:47 olegfink: of course, i know the paradigm is powerful 16:46:54 at least while quite a lot of smart people like K, there isn't any implementation 16:47:02 huh? 16:47:10 there isn't any implementation? 16:47:12 one reason maybe it that the existing one is good enough for them. :-) 16:47:16 ah 16:47:23 that is, except the official one 16:47:32 olegfink: it's just a question of, if you reimplemented the core language and not the libs, people wouldn't use it 16:47:43 because it'd be, while a powerful paradigm, not very useful 16:47:45 right? 16:47:55 you see, the most surprising thing is that there aren't any "libs" 16:48:03 the gui, f'instance 16:48:04 kdb 16:48:10 that is, there is a lot of stuff people use on the internet, but it's not standard 16:48:12 kdb -- yes 16:48:18 the gui is built-in 16:48:24 i'm just trying to figure out if/why a foss would be hard/impractical 16:48:38 i mean, ok, so there's no libs 16:48:41 but that just means the core language is big 16:48:44 that's a question I keep wondering about for almost a year now. 16:48:44 e.g. the gui 16:48:52 *a foss reimplementation 16:48:56 yes, the gui is about 60% of the implementation 16:48:56 can't go around dropping words. 16:49:01 right 16:49:10 and without the gui, it wouldn't be nearly as useful, i gather 16:49:31 unfortunately a reimplementation would be almost possible unless you're a k guru since all you have is a binary blob... 16:49:35 unless the docs are really precise 16:49:47 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 16:50:03 yeah, and then comes the question why the said 'k gurus' don't reimplement it. 16:50:21 ok, kref.pdf is ridiculously long 16:50:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:50:23 e.g. the nsl.com owner, who has created a few dozen k-like languages /in k/ 16:50:37 olegfink: better things to do i guess 16:51:01 they're on supported platforms, don't want to change the language in ways that require the source and have a copy of the impl & manual 16:51:04 when I asked him about it he said that the implementation doesn't matter, ideas do 16:51:23 well, actually I guess he has the source as well. :-) 16:51:25 well that's a wonderful philosophical yammering but doesn't change the reality of what the closed-sourceness limits :P 16:51:30 and yeah, exactly 16:51:35 closed source seems fine from the inside 16:51:48 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 16:51:49 olegfink: probably also a question of loyalty to kx 16:52:46 at least, seems that way to me 16:53:04 yeah, that's what I figured, but the question is harder than that -- there is a now-opensource a+ which is a k predecessor and shares many features with it 16:53:12 i looked at a+ 16:53:14 and basically noone seems to be interested in it 16:53:16 frankly the code looks ugly 16:53:18 as in 16:53:19 the A+ code 16:53:20 not the impl 16:53:27 and it seems to lack things like the gui 16:53:48 olegfink: I think the people who would use A+ use J instead 16:53:55 I don't see a single reason to use A+ instead of J 16:54:23 source availability again? :-) 16:54:44 olegfink: but nobody seems to care about that :\ 16:54:46 I can't say there aren't any places in K I wouldn't like to tweak a bit 16:54:48 at least not in this circle 16:55:13 i'm tempted to try reimplementing K 16:55:26 might be a nice way to learn it ;-) 16:55:41 K's gui does look like the nicest way to hack a quick UI up on current systems 16:56:01 although if I wanted something polished, i.e. not just something for me and a few others to quickly jab at, i'd always hand-craft it on current systems 16:56:10 yeah, that's what my friend and me are doing for the last year or so, however, we're currently mostly doing K code than implement K 16:56:29 if you want, come join us 16:56:41 where? :P 16:57:09 unfortunately we mostly do xmpp 16:57:23 i have a google talk account, though adium's chat support is lacking. 16:57:32 ooh 16:57:33 yeah, we use a MUC :-( 16:57:35 olegfink: colloquy does xmpp! 16:57:43 as well as SILC and some ancient protocol called ICB 16:57:46 so xmpp is fine 16:57:53 okay 16:58:17 though I'm not sure how you do a MUC on another server with xmpp 16:58:43 your client should have an explicit option for that 17:00:56 with the C implementation we just hit a wall because we apparently needed something cooler than CPP 17:01:54 olegfink: something more than cpp? have you SEEN arthur whitney's j prototype? :D 17:02:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:02:16 seen, read and -i hope- understood 17:02:26 as well as some amount of a+ and j7 code. 17:02:28 after de-cppization you can sort of understand it IME 17:02:45 I'd probably go crazy and write it in Haskell or Scheme 17:02:49 (j7 is an old source-available version of J) 17:02:49 because why not?!?! 17:02:55 we tried SML 17:03:28 got stuck because it lacked high-order polymorphism and so there was boilerplate all over the code 17:03:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:03:41 well, haskell would be slow, K is fast ;-) 17:03:44 haskell has polyhistomorphic functors up the wazoo! 17:03:46 olegfink: HEY! 17:03:48 Haskell ain't slow. 17:03:53 ghc's pretty sufficiently smart 17:04:13 -!- oklokol has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:04:13 -!- lament has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:04:13 -!- fizzie has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:06:17 olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. 17:06:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:06:57 -!- ehird has joined. 17:07:04 olegfink: you'll have to repeat your last /msg or two 17:07:06 client crashed 17:07:20 olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. 17:07:26 That's what thou missed. 17:07:46 pikhq: K as in a marketed solution pretty much depends on gcc sse vectorisations, so sorry, we need you beloved for(;;) loops. 17:08:06 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:08:07 olegfink: haskell has smart vectorisation actually. 17:08:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:08:53 -!- ehird has joined. 17:08:56 ehehehehe 17:09:00 you have to repeat your last /msg again :-( 17:09:06 * ehird deletes all contacts from gtalk 17:09:10 maybe my client won't crash then 17:09:46 -!- lament has joined. 17:10:04 ehird: just use bitlbee with your irc client 17:10:19 too much work. I'll just make a jabber.org account 17:10:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:10:49 wow, that was easy 17:10:54 username, password, repeat password, captcha 17:10:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:11:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:11:14 -!- oklokol has joined. 17:11:14 -!- fizzie has joined. 17:11:58 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:12:38 -!- fizzie` has joined. 17:12:38 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:16:22 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:16:55 -!- cmeme has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:17:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:21:59 olegfink: how fast IS k btw? 17:22:20 i get the impression it's basically going at the speed of light wrt the bog-standard vector operation 17:22:29 and deriving any speed benefits from that 17:22:39 (can it run on a gpu? :)) 17:24:06 -!- oklokol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:25:09 usually k has the same speed as good C code 17:25:27 that's for the very reason of it being a thin wrapper around good C array processing code 17:25:37 I saw people run Q with CUDA 17:26:04 that is, implementing K functions in C is very easy 17:26:25 yeah, the issue is when you do something that isn't really an array 17:26:32 Mmkay, so K gets you good data parallelism. 17:26:41 ( yeah, we can't do all these things: nothing) 17:27:46 Of course, data parallelism is not hard to do well. 17:28:04 pikhq_: Is that a vaguely dressed diss of K I see before me?! 17:28:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 17:28:38 ehird: Not especially. Data parallelism does need to be done well. It's more a complaint about people focusing *soley* on that. 17:28:53 have you ever used an array language? 17:28:57 it's not for the performance 17:28:59 it's for the paradigm 17:29:15 they are genuinely pleasant to use 17:29:30 Well, yeah; K seems to focus on making it very clear what the code's doing, and it just happens to get good performance. 17:30:10 errr 17:30:13 K is very, very implicit 17:30:25 at least by my reading. 17:30:50 ehird: ... Algorithmically. 17:30:56 no, though 17:31:02 K's algorithms are all internal 17:31:03 k isn't that large, but it's difficult to read unless you know all the syntax 17:31:07 unless i'm reading it very wrongly 17:31:13 i never really see actual K algorithms 17:31:15 Erm. I'm saying this wrong. 17:31:16 it does them for you 17:31:27 http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k is still one of my favourite pieces of code to date 17:32:02 Making it clear that you're, say, "doing vector operations foo bar and baz to vectors 1 through 3", I mean. 17:32:11 And I may just be sounding stupid right now. 17:32:12 pikhq_: vectors 1 through 3? 17:32:14 you mean "vectors" 17:32:22 vector operations? you mean regular operations? :P 17:32:25 olegfink: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/calc.k // am i reading this correctly as oop? 17:32:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:32:34 Well. Yes. 17:32:36 looks like it copies J's ugly of using strings as method bodies 17:32:47 ehird: nope 17:32:52 what're those strings then 17:33:03 you mean dots or what? 17:33:03 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:33:15 Anyways, it's trying to be like APL, without the need for a space cadet keyboard. 17:33:44 ehird: sorry? 17:33:52 calc.eval:"exp:5:. exp" 17:33:54 "" 17:34:04 pikhq_: no, that's j 17:34:13 ehird: I'm being dumb, then. 17:34:26 calc is a dictionary, that is a keyed table 17:34:35 what are the strings 17:34:44 an entry 'eval' has the given value 17:35:03 a string 17:35:05 why's it a string 17:35:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 17:35:26 in the K reference it is stated that when a data item is shown as a button its action is determined by evaluating its value 17:35:30 so it's the code to run 17:36:39 > 08:49:47 --- quit: Asztal (Success) 17:36:41 exp:5:. exp is something like "exp = show $ eval exp" in something like haskell 17:36:44 damn all these successful errors 17:37:00 er, something like something like. 17:37:20 There's an 'eval' function in Haskell? 17:37:21 olegfink: so, right, as a string 17:37:58 yeah, because k ui generally prefers strings over niladic functions 17:38:23 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 17:38:23 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:38:29 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:38:41 -!- ehird has joined. 17:39:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:44:22 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 17:47:38 -!- pikhq has quit ("Ĝis"). 17:50:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:52:38 -!- Asztal has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1/20090707221522]"). 17:52:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:07:16 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 18:08:31 -!- Tenacity has left (?). 18:16:52 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:18:37 huh ewird 18:18:42 weird 18:19:21 the count of something is: something count or somethings count? 18:19:28 user count or users count? 18:19:41 "Users" 18:19:49 "User count" 18:20:01 but don't say that. 18:20:44 " but don't say that." ... why not? 18:20:50 sounds awkward. 18:21:23 Looks like I'm going to have to go figure out the people-who-find-that-phrasing-awkward count. 18:21:30 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:21:33 that's less awkward. 18:21:43 O_O 18:22:16 are you on drugs? 18:22:18 looks like it! 18:22:37 i'm on it 18:22:42 looks like drugs 18:22:55 i'm on like 18:22:59 looks drugs it 18:23:17 are drugs it? 18:23:23 the drugs look 18:23:25 like you look on 18:25:19 like drugs the 18:25:24 a a the drugs like the 18:25:39 i on the is the i'm it the looks 18:27:44 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 18:28:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 18:33:06 -!- coppro has joined. 18:38:16 this whole K look weird 18:38:29 no shit 18:42:20 huh 18:43:57 i'm thinking about buying Snow Leopard 18:48:36 it'll set you back all of less than 30bux 18:50:38 i wonder if it's worth it 18:50:55 yes 18:51:18 good 18:51:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:51:46 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:51:49 note: i haven't used it 18:52:08 but seriously, only an iphone user would consider $30 a lot for software, why in my day we had bbedit 18:52:10 and it cost $99 18:52:15 and we were happy, we were 18:52:43 yeah 18:56:40 `google bbedit 18:56:41 BBEdit 9. Bare Bones Software develops and publishes software for OS X, ... Get started with a look at BBEdit, our flagship editor or Yojimbo, ... \ www.barebones.com/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar 18:56:55 GregorR-L: since System 6 iirc 18:57:00 the "canonical" macintosh code editor 18:57:08 People wrote code on System 6? 18:57:17 GregorR-L: People wrote code on System 1. :P 18:57:25 But, well, everything was plain text back then. 18:57:28 So, non-code too. 18:57:31 (unless it was word processed) 18:57:44 My boss at Intel, who previously worked at Apple, told horror stories of cross-compiling all their code from AIX workstations. 18:58:11 "AIX Version 1, introduced in 1986 for the IBM 6150 RT workstation" 18:58:21 This is in the PPC days, mind you. 18:58:22 "Release dateApril, 1988 (info)" — [[System 6]] 18:58:35 GregorR-L: yeah, ppc came in the system 7 days 18:58:42 Of this I am aware. 18:58:58 But if they were using AIX for PPC, I find it hard to believe they did everything natively on m68k :P 19:00:18 GregorR-L: I know that there have been programs written on System 6, for System 6, in its heyday. 19:00:41 Specifically, Mark Pilgrim's GPL'd (basically the only programs to be licensed that way at the time) apps. 19:00:42 I don't doubt it, I just find it terrifying :) 19:00:44 http://diveintomark.org/projects/classic/ 19:01:27 system 6 is quite capable 19:02:32 MPW 1.0 was apparently released in 1986, and I'm sure someone used it too. 19:02:53 what was that thing 19:02:54 codeworks 19:02:56 or whatever it was 19:03:32 I think CodeWarrior at least did some 68k stuff. 19:03:46 yes, that thing 19:03:49 also, urbandictionary confuses me 19:03:51 [[A word describing somebody who is uncomfortable being openly amiable and kind, so they give more subtle hints to their goodwill while maintaining a disagreeable exterior. See also. 19:03:51 That man spent the entire meal complaining to me about my service, and then he left me a $5 tip. He's totally aggressive passive.]] 19:03:57 * ehird 's brain explodes 19:04:41 -!- M0ny has quit. 19:04:43 ? 19:04:50 CodeWarrior people did a Symbian development system too. And something for the PlayStation. 19:05:24 "Even more amazing was the Macintosh Development System, an assembly-only tool that was Apple's very first tool for developing on the Mac (earlier Mac software was cross-developed on the Lisa). MDS will run on a Mac 512 with System 2!" 19:05:44 CodeWarrior was originally developed by Metrowerks based on a C compiler and environment for 68k, developed by Andreas Hommel and licensed to Metrowerks. The first versions of CodeWarrior targeted the PowerPC Macintosh, with much of the development done by a group from the original THINK C team. Much like THINK C, which was known for its fast compile times, CodeWarrior was faster than Macintosh Programmer's Workshop (MPW), the development tools written by App 19:05:49 → 19:05:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THINK_C 19:05:54 1986 grr 19:06:03 FireFly: lisa makes sense 19:06:03 err 19:06:05 fizzie: 19:06:06 MPW's free nowadays, which is nice. I installed some version on that Performa. 19:06:25 i tried to install it but it's distributed as 9348578934579345 separate files 19:06:27 for each component 19:07:59 The FTP site has single .img.bin files in addition to the Segmented_Image ".img_NNof24.bin" nonsense. At least for some parts. Don't remember how it was when I installed it. 19:08:15 exactly, a fuckton of .img.bin files 19:12:16 http://bellard.org/otcc/otcc.c man, this is nice 19:12:41 http://bellard.org/tcc/ non-obfuscated cousHOLY SHIT 19:12:47 The 64-bit guy who gave up just got a release! 19:12:55 "Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this." 19:12:57 Dude. 19:12:59 That's shinh. 19:13:01 Wait whaaaaaaa 19:13:29 Shinh of anarchy golf revived tcc along with someone else :D 19:14:02 Schweet. 19:14:43 that otcc looks awesome 19:19:07 IOPCC 19:19:32 International Obfuscated Pascal Code Contest 19:19:37 wha 19:20:11 that should exist 19:20:14 well, IOCCC looks awesome 19:20:28 Program WhatTheFuck(Input, Output); 19:20:38 program W(I,O); 19:20:49 uses crt 19:21:02 oh 19:21:07 IOBCC 19:21:12 i was going by very old pascal here 19:21:13 International Obfuscated Bash Code Contest 19:21:28 oerjan, oh 19:22:50 I was thinking of a Piet interpreter in obfuscated C :P 19:23:09 but that'd be too big 19:23:57 Oh wait 19:24:04 a C obfuscator in obfuscated C, maybe 19:24:16 Why didn't anyone do thatr 19:24:18 do that* 19:25:16 Then I could run the C obfuscator through a C beautifer and use my C obfuscator on the result so we can see if it's better or worse than human work 19:25:25 ...That makes sense in a very nonsensical way 19:26:11 well, i'm not the first one to request pascal 19:26:11 http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Syntax-Games-td171449.html 19:30:57 s w(h) e. 19:31:06 this is a hello world in obfuscated-ish pascal 19:31:16 i'd wager you weren't 19:33:31 what? 19:33:36 whar do you mean 19:37:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager 19:38:41 pascal's wager must have been a troll 19:38:44 it's so hilariously wrong 19:39:40 in fact it was posthumous 19:39:59 posthumorous 19:40:02 it was not humorous at all 19:46:36 a very grave matter indeed 19:46:47 * oerjan hides 19:47:01 i wonder why there aren't virtual machines that can change their memory allocation dynamically according to need. 19:55:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:56:29 I'm not sure what you mean by that; if you just mean adding/removing memory allocated to a particular quest system, at least Xen and I think KVM can do that for Linux guests with the "balloon" driver. 19:57:34 quest system 19:58:02 Yes. They're operating systems that are on a sort of a vision quest. 19:58:34 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 19:59:02 fizzie: i meant automatically 19:59:03 like 19:59:08 if it's using n megs, it gets n+a little megs 19:59:09 instead of 19:59:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:59:14 oh this vm wants umm 573 mb 19:59:19 oops i ran out of fake memory 19:59:47 i still don't get it 19:59:52 i probably never will 20:00:06 fortunately i'm not the one being talked to, because i'm being inactive 20:00:09 Given that there's the mechanisms for dynamically changing the memory amounts, I'm sure someone has rigged up some sort of automatic system. 20:02:00 The "Running Xen" book says "If a user desired an automatic policy for memory management, one could be written without much trouble" and then some ideas about scripting one, but maybe it hasn't been implemented. 20:03:06 VMware ESX apparently (haven't used it) has some sort of system where you define minimum, maximum and percentage shares for all machines, and then it periodically samples those machines and steals memory from machines not using it, and gives it to heavily loaded ones. 20:05:47 xen isn't acceptable 20:05:50 i'm running other oses 20:06:06 basically running server ubuntu, mounting os x dirs, hiding it then sshing in 20:06:08 = linux emulator 20:23:17 huh? 20:24:16 nooga: why huh 20:24:55 nothing 20:25:07 ..... 20:25:09 then why say why 20:25:10 err 20:25:11 then why say huh 20:26:11 is it possible to run separate OSes on multi-core processor so that they feel as if ran on single computer? 20:26:25 ... 20:26:28 nooga doesn't know what a vm is. 20:26:35 no no no 20:26:56 nooga: modern vms run the instructions directly on your hardware 20:26:56 i don't want to run lilnux in a vm that is a program in OS X's user space 20:26:57 with VT-e 20:27:07 and this happens in kernel spac 20:27:07 e 20:27:13 i want to run linux and OS X parallel 20:27:13 the only emulated part is the devices 20:27:19 ↑, you're being stupid 20:27:20 ah 20:27:23 :P 20:27:29 yes i know i'm stupid 20:27:37 nooga: you could make an OS that optimises the shit out of the devices part and only runs a vm 20:27:40 that would be nice and fast 20:28:41 i thought there is some thin layer that allows to boot several OSes at once and keep them running on separate cores sharing ram and shit 20:29:18 that's just a "VM OS" running multiple vms with uber-optimised virtual devices (can't get around that) 20:29:25 with dynamic memory allocation, I guess 20:29:53 it could be done by hardware :D 20:32:08 not really 20:32:14 hardware doesn't do task switching, either 20:32:18 and we don't complain about the performance of that 20:32:28 it's just that VM products have to route the virtual devices through an existing OS 20:32:35 which adds a lot of overhead 20:32:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 20:32:41 -!- ehird has joined. 20:32:42 oops 20:36:10 hm 20:38:37 i've got PC and mac and 2 lcd displays, it'd be cool to place the displays next to each other and use one keyboard and mouse, like i'm moving mouse cursor from one screen to another (from OS X to linux, for instance) and keyboard automagically changes focus + ability to drag files from one desktop to another would be nice 20:39:19 i'm sure it's possible with a piece of clever hardware and relatively simple software on both machines 20:39:53 Or, just one slightly-more-clever piece of software. 20:40:50 yep 20:41:18 liek connecting input devices to one computer and writing network based mouse+kbd driver for the second computer 20:41:49 Oooooooor .. http://synergy2.sf.net/ 20:41:53 oh 20:41:58 i knew it 20:42:31 -!- ski__ has joined. 20:43:53 it's such a good idea that it had to be done ;D 20:44:38 I've been using Synergy2 for that lately; earlier I used a VNC client I wrote that did not fetch display updates at all, just sent keyboard and mouse events, but that had some video-related problems. 20:44:45 There would be advantages to the hardware/software version. 20:50:02 uhm 20:52:12 -!- ehird has quit. 20:53:47 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:57:06 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:15 -!- coppro has joined. 21:29:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:43:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:46:07 Attack of the pikhqs! 21:50:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:50:27 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:50:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:50:48 wow 21:50:52 lolcats are over a hundred years old 21:51:15 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AntiqueLolcat.jpg 21:51:19 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 21:51:23 a postcard from 1905 21:51:27 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:51:35 That's not a lolcat :P 21:51:47 If it was, it'd say "WHERE R MY DIN-DIN" 21:52:08 well remember 21:52:12 this was a more civilized time 21:52:15 lol 21:52:16 before the breakdown of kitty grammar 21:53:47 lol a cat 21:54:04 This is your father's grammar, for a more... civilized age. 21:54:25 is that some kinda reference to something 21:54:25 fizzie: NO QUOTING XKCD 21:54:35 oklopol: It's the Star Wars, you may have heard of it. 21:54:47 Nope, it's xkcd now :P 21:54:55 I totally forgot that that was a reference >_> 21:55:03 I guess they stole it; though the parentheses thing wasn't original in xkcd either. 21:55:06 i actully do vaguely remember seeing something like that on xkcd 21:55:08 At least I think it wasn't. 21:55:40 what was the context in sw 21:55:54 oklopol: It's about Luke's father's lightsaber. 21:56:02 Which is a more elegant weapon than some clumsy blaster. 21:56:18 The Obi-Wan guy's presenting it to Luke. 21:56:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:23 err, is it "*from* a more..."? 21:56:50 "Your father's light saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." 21:57:11 Well, if you trust IMDb. 21:57:31 rights. 21:57:39 i find it funny that obi wan talks about blaster randomness 21:57:51 who's obi wan again 21:57:53 and the storm trooper blasters are notorious for being compeltely random 21:57:53 It seems I misspelled "light saber", though. 21:58:15 oklopol: He's the "old mentor" guy, you must know the type. 21:58:26 yeah, hes the obiwan of starwars 21:58:52 so is he yoda 21:58:56 no no 21:59:01 yoda is the yoda of star wars 21:59:15 i see what you're doing there! 21:59:17 ...stop it 21:59:18 Then who was phone? 21:59:29 There's the famous part in the first movie about "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise", when they for the remaining part of the saga can't hit the broad side of a barn. 21:59:34 http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG << obiwan 21:59:36 http://www.classesandcareers.net/education-careers/wp-content/uploads/yoda.jpg << yoda 21:59:53 You can tell them apart by the colour. 22:00:03 ah that dude 22:00:06 oi, dont be racist 22:00:14 also i do in fact remember yoda 22:00:25 Talked funnily did he. 22:00:29 i remember all things except human faces 22:00:30 Judge them not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character judge them by. 22:00:34 yes he did fizzie 22:00:36 but not like that :D 22:00:50 *talk? 22:00:53 Well, I didn't want to be a plagiarist. 22:01:06 OSV, fizzie 22:01:07 his syntax was mostly OSV 22:01:12 but not entirely 22:01:30 language log has a whole slew of posts on yoda grammar 22:01:43 so... it'd be "he talked funnily"? 22:01:50 no 22:01:53 >_< 22:01:54 That's SVO 22:02:00 funnily is O? 22:02:02 funnily he talked, hmmMMMmm? 22:02:11 no its not O 22:02:31 maybe. 22:02:40 THEN I GUESS YOU WERE NOT BEING 100% TRUTHISHFULL THERE HUH 22:02:50 gregor wasnt, at least 22:02:56 i said "but not entirely" :D 22:03:01 :) 22:03:09 It's effectively the object. Object doesn't always imply noun. 22:03:12 but it is true that he can be OSV and still do that sort of thing 22:03:14 At least in grammar it doesn't. 22:03:21 GregorR-L: its actually not really an object 22:03:42 GregorR: so not the object 22:03:49 its an adverbial modifier 22:03:49 your mom is more of an object 22:03:57 If the original sentence was "he funnily talked", then "funnily" would be an adverbial modifier. 22:04:07 no gregor 22:04:14 its an adverbial in both cases 22:04:26 and in fact "he funnily talked" is rather bad 22:04:41 manner adverbials prefer to follow the VP in english 22:05:13 Grammar, Gregor hates. 22:05:21 now THAT is an object. :) 22:05:41 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 22:05:53 he funnily talked himself out of the situation; he talked funnily during it 22:05:58 err 22:06:03 no i guess that's not right. 22:06:29 "he funnily talked ..." sounds more like a parenthetical to me 22:06:33 as in like 22:06:43 "he funnily enough talked himself out of the situation! haha :D" 22:06:44 "funnily enough, he ..."? 22:06:46 right. 22:07:55 anyway, i just tried to make a "funnily enough", you make me so self-conscious of my not being native that everything feels incorrect 22:08:19 aww dont worry oklopol 22:08:37 its your incorrectnesses that enrich english 22:09:26 discussing grammar, are you? 22:09:29 most clearly that must be true 22:09:40 oerjan: indeed we are 22:09:47 grammar you are discussing, mmhmmmmm? 22:09:57 no oklopol 22:10:01 again bad yoda talk 22:10:05 oerjan's was correct 22:10:09 hey. i just know what you give me 22:10:21 it was? 22:10:23 yes 22:10:38 i thought i swapped are and you 22:10:44 my point was mostly that your VSO sounded stupid in that one 22:10:44 you did that too, but its a question 22:10:49 err 22:10:50 sorry 22:10:51 and english has subject-auxiliary inversion in questions 22:10:53 mispermuted 22:11:02 yoda's grammar doesn't, afaik, change that 22:11:07 ah. 22:12:12 http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001269089414569134552%3Aqvjtfauf7ou&ie=UTF-8&q=yoda&sa=Search 22:13:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:13:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:13:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:13:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:09 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:44 hey 22:28:49 i can see the th-character now 22:28:52 it's like magix 22:29:11 the thorn? 22:29:37 yes 22:29:39 exactly 22:30:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:43:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:50:19 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 22:53:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:00:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 23:10:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:14:02 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:28:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:41:58 -!- ehird has joined. 23:43:17 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:43:32 -!- ehird has joined. 23:44:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").