< 1249862409 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone has been doing this for 11 years? well, the amount of effort involved does look pretty minimal, i suppose a whole years worth of this material is producible in about an hour < 1249862433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Less. < 1249862438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may have seen the guy who made it's blog (http://www.randsinrepose.com/) around the interwebs < 1249862442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has some fairly popular posts < 1249862461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only really need to dump IRC into comic. < 1249862463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I'm fairly sure they just sit in an irc channel 24/7. < 1249862474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: facial expressions too i think, although that could just be good synchronicity < 1249862501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and perhaps grouping lines into panels < 1249862508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that Parsec makes most parsers seem trivial < 1249862509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making sure that characters are in panels even when not talking < 1249862517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could just be automatic < 1249862548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviously very hit and miss though, http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3931.html made me laugh < 1249862561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but quantity beats quality for sufficiently large values of quantity! < 1249862579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, I cannot does HTTP. < 1249862581 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i laugh pretty easily, but i didnt laugh. < 1249862607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i basically never laugh but i smirked < 1249862607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Isn't, like, dropping connections at random a *good* thing?" < 1249862631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's spigot's expression in the last panel that did it < 1249862660 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249862902 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know of any real organized effort to create an 'encyclopedia of the internet and internet history'? something that infuriated me about wikipedia a long time ago was the idea on the part of many editors that the internet was somehow low-status and unimportant and the culture of the internet itself was un-encyclopedic < 1249862977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encyclopedia dramatica. < 1249862985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm absolutely serious. brb < 1249862987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encyclopedia Dramatica. < 1249862993 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugg, i hate ED with extreme prejudice. < 1249863070 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. < 1249863689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249864034 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ED's primary goal to chronicle internet history, but with an extra obsession of internet drama < 1249864053 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encouraging it, idolizing it and creating it < 1249864197 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless, there's definitely a need for a more scholarly approach to the topic < 1249864266 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So, what is your hobby?" "I am an internet anthropologist." "lolololololol" < 1249864277 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..u.u < 1249864300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ah, the AOL lol repetition. I thought that everyone had forgotten that." < 1249864349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1249864574 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249864648 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249864653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:11:10 i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. < 1249864656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ruined 4chan" < 1249864658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lose < 1249864691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. ... There was something to ruin about 4chan? < 1249864709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nostalgia shines everything < 1249864733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it had always been a desolate wasteland of memes of ill taste, weird porn, and the occasional Anonymous uprising. < 1249864791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read the start of the original 4chan thread once, was fun < 1249864808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esp. when moot got all emo and said something along the lines of < 1249864818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you'll see in the news about the 11 year old that killed himself" < 1249864819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brief pause < 1249864821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh wait i'm 13 now" < 1249864825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, he said that) < 1249864833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the forums exploded with "lol 13" < 1249864845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original 4chan thread as in on Something Awful < 1249864858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... moot was how old? < 1249864881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 < 1249864885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 2003 when 4chan started < 1249864889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought so. < 1249864901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That explains a lot. < 1249864926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1249864952 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1249864955 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep is dumb < 1249864960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your mom < 1249864971 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time grep -i -> 1m49.705s < 1249864981 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time grep 0m0.829s < 1249865000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, disk cache? < 1249865003 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249865012 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not that dumb < 1249865017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1249865036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249865057 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249865059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RTS are rather annoying. < 1249865066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, matter of taste... < 1249865086 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1249865091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, ? < 1249865093 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgrep does it in 2 seconds < 1249865097 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just bad programming < 1249865113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try a non-gnu grep? < 1249865114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, fgrep is a wrapper for grep on most GNU/Linux systems < 1249865118 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep should be doing boyer-moore on fixed strings no matter how you invoke it < 1249865122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: god you're an idiot < 1249865130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ... it is < 1249865142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : grep, grep -i, fgrep < 1249865144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a two line shell script < 1249865150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that invokes grep -F < 1249865158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you're really fucking retarded, you're proving my point here < 1249865160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaanyway < 1249865163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I'm not. < 1249865168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: gnu grep is probably using a lameo exponential algo http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html < 1249865170 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, but it obviously uses a different algorithm < 1249865170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, no. < 1249865175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, that is true < 1249865177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seperate binary. < 1249865182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even a symlink. < 1249865184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLEARLY bsmntbombdood WAS BENCHMARKING GREP -F VS FGREP < 1249865187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls -l `which fgrep` < 1249865188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1249865190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though he didn't mention grep -f! < 1249865191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, depends on what GNU/Linux you use < 1249865197 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: only exponential on diabolical regexes < 1249865198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo GNU/Linux. < 1249865206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: yes, but slow always < 1249865210 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i am searching for fixed-length strings < 1249865214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i know < 1249865218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't say anything stupid < 1249865219 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boyer moore is the best algorithm, period < 1249865222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With two different md5sums. < 1249865227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc < 1249865228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed it seems so there. was checking on my arch system < 1249865231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was talking about grep -i time < 1249865247 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to grep the log to see what the grep everyone is grepping about < 1249865266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249865328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really < 1249865398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249865411 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249865476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill people there. < 1249865481 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god me too < 1249865611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would be happy if the isp i'm eventually going to switch to has nice fibre optic < 1249865616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can't complain about isps too much. < 1249865696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be happy if my ISP did not drop connections at random. < 1249865704 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need moar bandwidth < 1249865714 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and less latency < 1249865717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: just forward everything through ssh < 1249865723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need an execution squad. < 1249865730 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from google.com (74.125.45.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=555 ms < 1249865730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: the internet actually gets something like half of the maximum possible latency < 1249865734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/ the speed of light < 1249865735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...okay, not that < 1249865738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with a good connection < 1249865756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html < 1249865771 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to connections < 1249865782 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one super low latency, medium bandwidth one for web, irc, ssh, etc < 1249865789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION connections < 1249865793 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another with like up to 10 seconds of latency < 1249865797 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with super duper bandwidth < 1249865799 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for bittorrent < 1249865800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no need to separate them < 1249865801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no conflict < 1249865811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: also bittorrent is p2p < 1249865815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that latency will fuck you up < 1249865819 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1249865886 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249865888 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: actually, the best studies ive seen of modern day internet latency show that the effective latency at the application level tends to be a lot worse, because the problem is that at the application level, your total latency is determined by the *worst* latency of the group of packets involved in an application level operation < 1249865901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249865912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that you can't make a CONNECTION massively less latencyful < 1249865927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember that page was last updated 2001 < 1249865927 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very true, speed of light is a lot more of a practical limit than people realize < 1249865929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we might be even closer < 1249865957 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: which is why voip uses udp < 1249865961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I realised that when I learned that in the worst case, the speed of light limits communications to mars at something like 22 minute latency < 1249865966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best case like six minutes < 1249865974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was just like... well fuck space colonisation < 1249865996 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1249866000 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Works quite a bit better with lunar colonisation. < 1249866005 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couple seconds latency. < 1249866019 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system :P < 1249866019 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: its funny you say that, i think reasoning along those lines is actually the best resolution to the fermi paradox of extraterrestrial life < 1249866019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: why are you lolling < 1249866022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: is it fast enough for video chat? < 1249866031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I'm... not talking about TCP/IP. < 1249866033 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not going to be playing any FPSes, but should be doing fine. < 1249866036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I'm talking about the speed of light. < 1249866044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a magical protocol that goes faster than light. < 1249866050 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: why not? < 1249866052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah, ditto < 1249866055 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1249866060 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ansible! < 1249866064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: ? < 1249866089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean "well just use slower things then" < 1249866090 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system BECAUSE the speed of light is an issue. What I'm saying is we'll need a set of protocols that don't assume such low latency. < 1249866090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK THAT < 1249866094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :email is crap < 1249866115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space colonisation where each planet is an isolated bubble isn't an improvement < 1249866116 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Go back a few decades, then. < 1249866122 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UUCP. < 1249866140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had hundreds of billions to blow on physicists so I could force them to figure out a loophole to the speed of light :P < 1249866141 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: originally, the ttl field of a tcp packet was in seconds < 1249866149 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says tcp can't handle high latency? < 1249866169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: back then we sent like, oh, 30 packets at a time :P < 1249866169 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: TCP can't do *half an hour* latency. < 1249866172 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: want to take a shot at making this a formally stated theory? "given the inherent relationship of intelligence to information processing and extrapolation from our current sample size of 1 (ourselves)..." < 1249866180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: no < 1249866203 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's only 22 minutes worst case < 1249866219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i'm afraid we can't control its orbit < 1249866224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1249866225 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best case is 3 minutes < 1249866226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 minutes is still bad < 1249866229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1249866233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 minutes is as bad as 22 minutes < 1249866236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 90% of things < 1249866245 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it seems likely that as technological civilizations advance, their needs for bandwidth and low latency connections mean that space travel is unlikely to be regarded as efficient or desirable, due to the inherent limitations of bandwidth and latency imposed on outward expansion" < 1249866246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have a lot of patience and email < 1249866251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 3 minutes is a bit less annoying < 1249866257 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each planet can have a massive squid cache for web < 1249866298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years < 1249866303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, more < 1249866314 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sms seems to be quite popular these days, that will do fine with 3 minutes latency < 1249866323 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249866344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*22 minutes < 1249866351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want to limit all communication to a short period. < 1249866365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, yes, we could do non-real time communication < 1249866370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to repeat: the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years < 1249866376 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100 years < 1249866378 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249866386 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You act as if all realtime communication MUST be with people on Earth. < 1249866387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: telephone < 1249866399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: FUCK isolated bubbles < 1249866405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not progress < 1249866408 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: look at sms < 1249866414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: sms is not real time < 1249866416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just email < 1249866429 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother just got a cell phone...i think he's maybe spoken on it once < 1249866437 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This conversation is too ehird-makes-amazingly-stupid-arguments for me to continue ... *vanish* < 1249866449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ you're all fucking retarded. < 1249866457 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm saying is that high latency text communication is becoming popular < 1249866479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's been popular for a while now gramps < 1249866482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kids in the hood call it email < 1249866494 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_in place_ of voice communication < 1249866497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless, an isolated bubble of real-time communication isn't progress < 1249866507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: yes, but SMS is also used as a surrogate real-time communication < 1249866508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM-style < 1249866511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you couldn't do that < 1249866523 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1249866551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a surr/surr/ < 1249866552 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what kind of bandwidth you can get from mars < 1249866560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: we're talking about mars. < 1249866570 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: You're limited by the FCC. < 1249866574 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1249866580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: anyway, this is theoretical limit < 1249866581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice < 1249866582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much lower < 1249866583 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, rather, their interplanetary equivalent. < 1249866585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we're not using freakin' light < 1249866589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the the < 1249866592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oretical) < 1249866595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1249866598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latency will be even worse < 1249866607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bandwidth will be the best of whatever can do those distances < 1249866611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly not much < 1249866633 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for idling speculating < 1249866640 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we have probes on mars < 1249866642 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start googling < 1249866649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use radio < 1249866655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's slow. < 1249866674 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else are you going to use besides radio? < 1249866682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gigantic fucking microwaves < 1249866691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ magic humans who can survive said microwaves < 1249866692 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's radio < 1249866698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah technically < 1249866710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but generally we don't say radio when we mean HOLY FUCK I'M MELLLLLLLLLLLLTIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG < 1249866714 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _is_ all line of site < 1249866722 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sight < 1249866725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I don't point to my microwave and go < 1249866726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my radio oven < 1249866748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249866750 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: wtf are you on about < 1249866752 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell are we arguing about specifically? < 1249866757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: bunnies < 1249866759 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: microwave is commonly used for communication < 1249866769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i'm talking _powerful_ microwaves < 1249866775 0 :pikhq__!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249866794 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're only powerful where you send them...with high gain directional antennas < 1249866801 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :away from the ground < 1249866801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHY NOT < 1249866805 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone please express the topic of debate in the form of a question to answer, or a statement of fact to agree/dispute? < 1249866814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: read yourself < 1249866828 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive been here and reading the whole time, and ive lost the thread < 1249866834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internet with mars. < 1249866838 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: interplanetary bandwidth < 1249866848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and latency. < 1249866852 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but those are nouns. you cant disagree about nouns. < 1249866859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also humans, melting humans < 1249866865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: in this channel, we simply discuss/argue about things. < 1249866869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deal. < 1249866920 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the basic topic "will martian colonists have acceptable internet access?" < 1249866928 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the likely answer is no. < 1249866948 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the topic is "is earth-mars communication possible" the answer is obviously yes. < 1249866951 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://selenianboondocks.com/2006/03/the-bandwidth-may-be-improving-but-the-latency-is-still-going-to-suck/ < 1249866970 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i assume they'll have a decent lan < 1249866983 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously their local communications are no problem < 1249866992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is making it not an isolated bubble < 1249866996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the speed of light, this is impossible. < 1249867001 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the earth is an isolated bubble < 1249867007 0 :pikhq__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for exotic physics. < 1249867011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but there aren't any humans elsewhere. < 1249867021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we're not isolated relative to humans. < 1249867094 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bittorrent would still work < 1249867096 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all i need < 1249867097 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i think the issues in re: mars are probably not insurmountable, but that the issues for extrasolar travel (the really interesting question imo) maybe *are* < 1249867101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1249867102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249867116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if bittorrent never made any new connections, and you didn't have to share chunks, sure < 1249867133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a) it does and (b) they're gonna be sitting on their asses for 20 minutes waiting for your bytes to come through < 1249867134 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf are you talking about < 1249867141 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine < 1249867144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249867148 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249867149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1249867229 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249867648 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249867745 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249867817 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1249867817 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249868073 0 :pikhq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249868281 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249868439 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249868500 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249868531 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249868666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249868687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! David S. Touretsky appeared on the interwebs. < 1249869268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's not actually hah but. < 1249869455 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249869615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249870331 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249870390 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249870464 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249871070 0 :calamari_!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249871779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hath it stabilised? < 1249873301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249873406 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249873525 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249873661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im baking my shallot tart tatin! :D < 1249874390 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-198-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249874885 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249877970 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249878447 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1249879820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ThinkGeek < 1249879836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. < 1249879855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. < 1249879877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not being dicks == impressive. < 1249879884 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1249879920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So you got shit for free. Guess what? It's actually free." :) < 1249879934 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1249880044 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet shittons of people are going to start buying stuff now < 1249880049 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1249880755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1249880758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had known! D: < 1249880968 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too.. i always wanted that watch that's like $600 < 1249881193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249881201 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so < 1249881206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its my geeky duty! < 1249881219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gotten stuff from there for Christmas. < 1249881848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhhhh they don't sell the slide rule watch anymore < 1249881865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they still have http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/a890/ < 1249882002 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrible < 1249882025 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd buy it if it wasn't $600 < 1249882055 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why 35 degrees north < 1249882097 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1249882114 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there even a major american city at that latitude < 1249882126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :35 degrees north is where japan is < 1249882146 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also oklahoma city < 1249882148 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just north of LA < 1249882158 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memphis too < 1249882166 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that's not why the watch uses 35 < 1249882192 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so northern hemisphere-centric < 1249882192 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's not that big of a difference < 1249882192 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha yes < 1249882198 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practically the fucking < 1249882204 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :centre of gravity of all the big japanese cities < 1249882217 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just south of nagoya < 1249882242 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaka and tokyo and split the difference < 1249882245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work anywhere in japan, and, for that matter, anywhere in the states (except alaska) < 1249882261 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hokkaido goes up to the 40s! < 1249882285 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the islands down to 24ish < 1249882300 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249882348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filthyphil.tumblr.com/post/154985575/dont-act-like-youve-never-seen-a-two-legged-cat < 1249882349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1249883170 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249883243 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249884307 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249884577 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249884589 0 :calamari_!n=calamari@ip70-162-187-246.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249884710 0 :Tenacity!n=john@c-75-66-41-100.hsd1.tn.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249885180 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249886756 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@a-32.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1249888279 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Reconnecting" < 1249888282 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249888788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1249889476 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249890038 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249890437 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-132.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249891184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? < 1249891199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1249891200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1249891964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, xkcd is writing about me, or something. < 1249892170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, girl genius won a hugo < 1249892245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone can recommend a piece of music, preferrably for organ, that fits in three octaves? < 1249892452 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: your best bet is small bach keyboard works - check out the inventions and sinfonias < 1249892492 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can check some of my sheet music right now i guess to see if thats accurate, im pretty sure that range isnt too far off < 1249892551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249892564 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them ought to work < 1249892661 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 octaves would be a lot more comfortable, but i think a fair number of small pieces fit into 3, or can do so with only trivial transposition of an occasional bass note up or something < 1249893461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, context? < 1249893471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what to grep for < 1249893486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1249893620 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah < 1249893630 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i want something more :) < 1249893950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, you want a small keyboard? Not enough space for a full length one? < 1249893962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as I can't find anything relevant in scrollback) < 1249893994 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my macbook already has a keyboard < 1249894009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I meant, musical keyboard < 1249894010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249894031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, electrical piano with MIDI over USB or such < 1249894065 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, shitty playing, but proof of concept that it can be done: http://filebin.ca/dmfhkb/bachprelude.mp3 < 1249894075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm playing that on my keyboard < 1249894107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, *playing on macbook keyboard*? < 1249894107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249894124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music < 1249894126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR maybe < 1249894128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1249894207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably me < 1249894217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it was me :) < 1249894252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ah < 1249894967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and me < 1249894976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about a year earlier < 1249894986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he thought no one would remember and ripped off my idea < 1249895127 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249895192 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh desktop keyboard < 1249895264 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249895434 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, laptop < 1249895639 0 :oklokol!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249895736 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chromatone is still fucking sexy < 1249895742 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/8/chromatone-t312.jpg < 1249895750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure i'll end up buying one eventually < 1249895792 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1249895792 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1249895830 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately it uses javko < 1249895834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :janko < 1249895893 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i have a b-system accordion < 1249895963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, wow < 1249895967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that picture) < 1249896000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is like an electrical accordion? < 1249896020 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of, but different layout < 1249896031 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, worse < 1249896046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know next to nothing about playing accordion < 1249896056 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you know piano its a bit tricky < 1249896070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do play piano. (not professionally, just for fun) < 1249896072 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the button/chording system adds a whole new element < 1249896103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, so for someone who can manage a bit on piano and on acoustic guitar: How does that thing work? < 1249896122 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accordion? well, its basically a keyboard that you play the melody on, then buttons that set the accompanying chords < 1249896125 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you press the keys, and it makes sounds < 1249896142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249896155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, setting chords? you don't play chords the "normal" way? < 1249896176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like you have a fixed set of possible chords? < 1249896183 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, which is retarded < 1249896188 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all accordions are like that, though < 1249896201 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i ever get an accordion, it would need to have the same layout on both sides < 1249896208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well... what about classical acoustic accordion. < 1249896210 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such accordions exist too < 1249896218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing used for folk music and such < 1249896231 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but usually, yeah, you have a set of chords < 1249896242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, how extensive is that set? < 1249896257 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. for each key, you have a major chord, a minor chord, an alternative root for the major chord, a major seventh, a diminished chord < 1249896269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1249896274 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty useless if you want to play classical on it < 1249896510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249896516 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249897548 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249898024 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not all accordions are like that, though <<< most ones i've seen have both melodic and chord bass options < 1249898096 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same layout on both sides? cool, i might even consider playing one < 1249898108 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249898128 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're ridiculously expensive though < 1249898130 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1249898144 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the coolest layout seems to be the russian one < 1249898156 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the accordions i've seen have cost a ridiculous amount anyway < 1249898165 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works like a piano - higher notes are downward on the right hand and upward on the left < 1249898190 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's as if the two keyboards were two halves of the same keyboard < 1249898204 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, usually i'm against all that isn't symmetric, but that would already be better than piano, so i don't mind < 1249898235 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other accordions have the keyboard mirrored, so higher notes are downward on both hands < 1249898264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to say wihch is better < 1249898264 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i'd probably prefer that < 1249898269 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! < 1249898276 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i don't know about "better", i'm all about purity < 1249898277 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249898282 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually yeah, this one is probably better < 1249898291 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: the tritone is my favorite interval < 1249898300 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the scale patterns are the same with both hands < 1249898305 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249898337 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's somewhat annoying in piano, but it makes up for it because there's not explicit split < 1249898348 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also in that i've already learned the patterns < 1249898450 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit, if i get a second laptop < 1249898455 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could do that with two laptops < 1249898465 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds yummy < 1249898496 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i already hate all keyboards for being completel antisymmetric anyway < 1249898496 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1249898526 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: a lot of that asymmetry is inherent in how we build music out of mathematical ratios < 1249898550 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean the shifts to the right on different rows are completely random < 1249898561 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: do you mean the split of the octave, or what exactly? < 1249898593 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are a lot of elements, this is my particular field of professional expertise, so what level of detail do you want in the answer? < 1249898613 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on an adequate level! < 1249898614 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should express what you mean by 'antisymmetric' in terms of keyboards, i dont follow what you mean yet maybe < 1249898617 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: they're close enough on my macbook that it doesn't botehr me < 1249898634 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, do you mean keyboards, not keyboards? < 1249898643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: think of it like the different sizes of frets on the guitar :) < 1249898644 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer keyboards, not piano keyboards? < 1249898654 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i simply mean the difference in shift between the two lower columns is different than it is on the first two < 1249898664 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: hah :P < 1249898671 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: computer. < 1249898677 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, well i was miscontexted < 1249898685 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like the piano keyboard either, though. < 1249898685 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a good way to control volume < 1249898687 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you disliked the asymmetery of the musical keyboard < 1249898693 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i'm not very fond of the major scale < 1249898717 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? < 1249898730 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i dislike the asymmetry of the musical keyboard. Accordians are much nicer. < 1249898732 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some people do, but its very rare) < 1249898733 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of any of those, but yes, i prefer atonal music < 1249898737 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*accordions < 1249898738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Use the Power Glove to control the volume. It's so BAD. < 1249898744 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't know what serial music is < 1249898750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo < 1249898754 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: that's me playing < 1249898754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the solution is obviously thermins (spelling?) < 1249898762 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: its music composed on the idea of treating each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale 'symmetrically' < 1249898781 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i guess i imply that when i say atonal. < 1249898788 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or violins < 1249898796 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, no i don't know if i like atonal music < 1249898797 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: not all atonal music is 'serial' - the serial school is a particular method < 1249898802 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hrm < 1249898804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, they sound better too. So yes < 1249898816 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i dont have flash enabled on this computer so ill have to check that link later < 1249898836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, power glove? < 1249898851 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i liked that joke < 1249898860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, use vlc or such + the command line program youtube-dl < 1249898861 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: its a pop cultural reference to a very bad movie about video games < 1249898867 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse < 1249898878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The actual glove is an old (1989) accessory for the NES console. < 1249898879 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i need to go read random crap now -> < 1249898893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, ah. Well for reference I suck at popular culture references < 1249898908 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: me too, i get them all second hand, ive never seen the movie, but i know the line < 1249898927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wikipedia power glove page has the requisite "in popular culture" section. < 1249898936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse <-- hrrm < 1249898939 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every pop culture reference i know, i know because ive learned it from the internet referencing it, its been like this since the 80s < 1249898940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foot controlled mice? < 1249898941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I haven't seen it either, I just know it by osmosis. < 1249898944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be interesting < 1249898947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in general < 1249898959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A friend here was considering getting some foot pedals for Emacs. < 1249898968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? < 1249898970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249898986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I can use my rudder pedals for something like that < 1249898994 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a half measure, how about a full pipe organ setup for emacs? < 1249898996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a total of three axis < 1249899003 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could play 'stallman's 3rd sonata for emacs' on it < 1249899007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaw and each toe brake < 1249899013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, I take it you dislike emacs? < 1249899017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1249899029 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ive never even been able to learn enough of it to dislike it < 1249899033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249899041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, for reference I'm IRCing from inside emacs < 1249899045 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1249899066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried out ERC, but it didn't really stick. < 1249899071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC < 1249899079 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs < 1249899083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed. There is some other irc client for emacs too < 1249899086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you would prefer it < 1249899091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :riece or something iirc < 1249899094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about spelling < 1249899116 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll keep swapping clients every few months or so; variety is good for... well, it must be good for *something*! < 1249899119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd thing is, I find zsh bloated, so I use bash < 1249899120 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though perhaps if you switch to emacs-as-os mode, then emacs becomes a nice flexible lightweight environment with nice lightweight tools < 1249899135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course bash could *also* be considered bloated. compared to simpler shells at least < 1249899148 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a plan9 devotee, so we think everything everyone uses is bloated < 1249899180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, you have the power of lisp always. Admittedly this is *elisp*. So dynamic scoping. But better than vimscript definitely. < 1249899209 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i understand that the emacs paradigm of being a full operating environment with full reflexivity because of lisp is actually awesome, once you know what the hell you are doing < 1249899232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, I can customise my irc client a lot. Just write a hook in elisp < 1249899249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of places that you can hook into. Basically everything. < 1249899264 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, i love the idea being able to modify your environment in real time as you work in it < 1249899293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now I'm quite happy with the defaults/pre-made available options in most cases for ERC, but in a few places I hooked in my own code) < 1249899300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now,* < 1249899338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, anyway, while lisp is awesome, elisp isn't < 1249899383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly due to the dynamic scoping. But even apart from that it is quite sucky compared to scheme (I don't know common lisp, so can't compare with that) < 1249899398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1249901747 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249902244 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-8-203.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249903162 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1249903163 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1249903165 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long time no see :) < 1249903775 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249904973 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1249905054 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249905398 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-54-203.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249905777 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249906019 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249906433 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249906433 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1249906860 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249907064 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-044-114.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249908342 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249908495 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-044-114.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249909595 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249909697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAXIMISE RADICALNESS IN YOUR EVERY ACTION! < 1249909771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:50:36 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. < 1249909771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:50:55 ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. < 1249909771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:51:17 Not being dicks == impressive. < 1249909771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would buy thinkgeek stuff, but the last time I got something from there the import tax was like £70 < 1249909873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:59:44 ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? < 1249909874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249909876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't even alive then < 1249909880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249909882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was one year old, rather < 1249909954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: how do you think using the fancy shmancy multi touch trackpad on the new macbook pros would go for musak < 1249909963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be fun < 1249909984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:48:44 pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music < 1249909985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah lament posted a video < 1249910010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i dunno, how would you use it? < 1249910024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno! :P < 1249910035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would prolly work best in combination < 1249910036 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if your hands are busy playing stuff < 1249910049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do, like, modulation with it < 1249910059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that's fairly useless and not multitouchy < 1249910135 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touchpad could work pretty well as a volume control, except that the hands are already occupied < 1249910166 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only solution i see is some kind of pedal (possibly the mouse) < 1249910178 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your nose is also free. < 1249910215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Free lament's nose, only today on #esoteric! Terms and restrictions may apply. Order valid only while supplies last." < 1249910294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: eh, keyboards (musical kind) have sliders and shit next to the keys < 1249910356 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that' true < 1249910377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a keyboardist so i don't know how they work or what they're useful for < 1249910403 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen the pitch bender thing but can't imagine a use for it < 1249910440 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that would look absolutely fucking brilliant < 1249910494 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pitch bending is very useful if you are trying to imitate the sounds of non keyboard instruments < 1249910519 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, even a well sampled synth brass instrument is going to sound quite 'lifeless' if the samples are 'straight on' pitch unless you bend into them a bit < 1249910546 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for something like playing pseudo-electric guitar on a digital keyboard, the pitch bending and other 'expression' controls are invaluable < 1249910556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some sort of use-your-tongue-like-a-joystic things also exist. < 1249910573 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its not 'tongue as a joystick' its breath control if im thinking of the same things... < 1249910585 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i havent kept up with all the toys so maybe there is a tongue joystick < 1249910588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:57:49 oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! < 1249910588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's the Boîte Diabolique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s < 1249910610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick Googling only found http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26338543/ < 1249910618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not as a product yet, but still. < 1249910622 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'm imagining some kind of pedal contraption with a wooden frame for the mouse, s.t. when you press on the pedal, the mouse moves < 1249910622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the modulation is useful for pretending you have a theremin. < 1249910670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: uhh just hook the pedal up to the computer < 1249910675 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there are things very much like the boite diabolique that are quite real, microtonal keyboards have been around for hundreds of years actually < 1249910693 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that requires a pedal < 1249910707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yes, ear-bleeding notes of fucked up colours. :P < 1249910709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are locked < 1249910713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: mehhhhhhhh < 1249910722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i'm more interested in using things directly rather than hacking them up < 1249910746 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires buying such a pedal, if it even exists < 1249910759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: of course it exists, but < 1249910762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gives a shit about pedals < 1249910764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're conventional and boring. < 1249910829 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, using the tongue would be much better < 1249910845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course the perfect solution would be a touch-sensitive computer keyboard < 1249910850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just don't appreciate the utilisation of gizmos and gadgets < 1249910852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no < 1249910858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tactile <3 < 1249910872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the perfect solution would be total virtual reality of course. < 1249910889 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perfect solution would be to become a lesbian. < 1249910903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right. < 1249911072 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1249911103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, no < 1249911121 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s <<< what the absolute fuck is this < 1249911162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look around you < 1249911166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an excellent educational program < 1249911179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well was < 1249911193 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it meant to be like some kinda bad surreal humor < 1249911207 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, i don't get it < 1249911216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course you're not going to like it just jumping in like that, also the music episode isn't the best. < 1249911232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 is prolly a better start. < 1249911254 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you saying it is supposed to be educational? i'm just asking what the point is < 1249911276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, oklokol. It is really trying to teach people about the twelve forbidden notes on every piano... < 1249911359 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll assume it is, because i can't come up with another possibility < 1249911381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the boite diabolique is just filler in between segments < 1249911395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had heard of "edutainment" and "infotainment", but "edugamement" was a new one. < 1249911409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not related.) < 1249911419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: srsly, just watch the maths episode, it's good :P < 1249911467 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 <<< okay, this is humor, even rather funny < 1249911473 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err and yeah that's the math < 1249911878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: what does "err and yeah that's the math" mean :P < 1249911937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what would those words mean < 1249911940 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it was exactly the maths episode you were talking about < 1249911947 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how was that not terribly clear! < 1249911951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, containment of education/info for the first wo? < 1249911959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two* < 1249911970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one I have no clue about < 1249912013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entertainment, not containment. < 1249912015 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i have my mind wrapped around the music episode too < 1249912021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Edutainment (also educational entertainment or entertainment-education) is a form of entertainment designed to educate as well as to amuse." < 1249912023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1249912049 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that sounds absolutely horrible < 1249912054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you mean like really boring programs by Utbildningsradion? < 1249912070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it generally is quite horrible, yes. < 1249912074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no clue what is the equivalent in UK or US) < 1249912084 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i see an example of it now, please < 1249912110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edulamement < 1249912112 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also "educational games" could be lumped under edutainment, but apparently there is also a (fortunately not much used) new term "edugamement" for that. < 1249912114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH SNAP! < 1249912223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward. < 1249912224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009. < 1249912224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your tweets with tr.im URLs in them will not be affected.]] < 1249912225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, ha, ha < 1249912235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that, people who say "naw, a URL shortening service would NEVER disappear!" < 1249912280 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im eager to find those people and say 'i told you so' also, apart from the fact that i never met any of them, and i never heard of tr.im before today < 1249912294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you are not the target market of my statement! < 1249912306 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the context of this < 1249912363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm flying people < 1249912367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zoooooooooooooooooooooom < 1249912378 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1249912428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDD YAY FLYING < 1249912429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1249912432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There is no way for us to monetize URL shortening -- users won't pay for it --" Really! < 1249912444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDD FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY*!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249912450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249912453 0 :nooga!n=nooga@94.254.244.80 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249912453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: quite < 1249912460 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? there are free url shortening services? man im gonna find that guy ive been paying $5 to every week and kick his ass < 1249912464 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1249912466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: :D < 1249912561 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a tool that analyzes C++ code to visualize what classes are needed for other classes to function etc? < 1249912567 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, i spend all my time on the internet, but i still live in a different world - i read stuff like "twitter's ecosystem has lots of developers" and i dont even have the vaguest clue what 'developing for twitter' even means < 1249912604 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only have a vague idea what twitter is < 1249912614 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its a service popular with twits < 1249912636 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to get either a good ZX Spectrum assembler for the PC < 1249912636 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my semantic assumption, at least < 1249912640 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a good binary->tape converter < 1249912656 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary->tape? what < 1249912666 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.out binary assembler output -> tape < 1249912671 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1249912672 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.tap < 1249912672 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what tape? < 1249912673 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or .tzx < 1249912673 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249912724 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what those contain, i'll just stick with the assumption you want to change the file extension < 1249912752 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.computerbrains.com/tapformat.html < 1249912759 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :siimple < 1249912790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'm going to try and explain twitter and wtf "programming for twitter" means in one (1) irc line, because i'm fucking insane and hate myself < 1249912817 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know twitter is some kind of web platform for push/pull of tiny text segments < 1249912840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, the .tap format's simple because it's pretty much just an image of the tape contents; it's not that trivial to get a binary on it so that the target system can load it from the tape. < 1249912900 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but if you have appropriate binary < 1249912922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you still have to find out how the binary is stored on the tape. < 1249912946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "data" in that format is just timings for pulses, not binary data. < 1249912972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I would have to guess there are several existing programs to do it. (I last used one some seven years ago and don't remember the name.) < 1249913265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it was that WAV-PRG one, though I have no idea how speccy-friendly it is. < 1249913691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing ehird's task of explaining what Twitter is made him implode. < 1249913715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to do it in five IRC lines but just /msg'd it to mycroftiv since, as nobody cares, I decided to bore as few people as possible < 1249913726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1249913730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now do it in one Tweet. < 1249913741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's, what, 140 characters? < 1249913745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1249913749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try, with the help of OS X's summariser < 1249913760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but every piece of info in those 5 tweets is required to understand why < 1249913761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to what < 1249913846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION condenses to three paras < 1249913982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a "why" explanation for twoodler would be nice. That's something I've been asked, and never been able to answer. < 1249914008 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-30-107.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249914080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can get it down to two IRC messages: what-with-a-bit-of-why, and why < 1249914083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tweet's pushing it a bit < 1249914095 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249914109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two IRC messages is not too shabby either. < 1249914468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost got it in two IRC messages < 1249914552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's the max irc message limit again? < 1249914650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :512 bytes, but two are taken by the potential \r\n at the end, and then it depends on how long the command is; on-channel "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" eats, what, 19 bytes or so. < 1249914654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249914677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 495 < 1249914691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :493 and 508 atm < 1249914745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it! < 1249914762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: and now, I will attempt to explain what Twitter is and why it is in two IRC lines. < 1249914765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see all tweets from people you follow. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: people carry out conversations through it, etc. Basically, it does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). Also, mention people in your tweet and it shows on one of their tabs, even < 1249914766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Importantly, it's pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; though you get messages as they're posted and can reply then, it can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically in this way (unlike IRC in the usage of it (not technically), of course; shares facets though). One thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics proceeded by #) - not channels because messages don't have continuity; just groupings of messages about the same thing. By searching, you can scan th < 1249914782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1249914785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: don't bother to read that < 1249914789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you didn't account for the name < 1249914794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the :ehird@blahblahshit < 1249914801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wittles it down further < 1249914858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Since it's not in the command, it's just in the messages forwarded by the server, which of course have the same length limit too. < 1249914917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: let's try this again < 1249914920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tweets are sent out to followers. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: conversations through it, etc. It does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). < 1249914920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Importantly, pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; you get messages as they're posted and can reply then; can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically here (unlike in the usage of it (not technically) too, ofc; shares facets though). Thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics after #) - not channels, messages don't have continuity; groupings of messages about the same thing. < 1249914926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1249914985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations. < 1249915205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's sort of like saying "congratulations on your brain enema". < 1249915225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing short form writing is not for is long explanations :P < 1249915642 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249916150 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249916430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is like magic! < 1249916480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1249916483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the length there < 1249916531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :server sends somewhat like this to other clients: < 1249916538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah < 1249916542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misremmeber < 1249916555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc the length limit of 512 applies *from server* too < 1249916558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you deliberately ignore lines that say what you want to say? < 1249916562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again unless I misremember < 1249916627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was just doing log reading like you do. since obviously you think this is a good idea. I would assume you want the same applied to yourself < 1249916629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249916653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do try awfully hard to be obnoxious, don't you < 1249916655 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249916723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/toshiba-tg01 // the 1GHz phones are here! < 1249916754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I tried to be kind. Maybe assuming that you like others doing what you do yourself was wrong. < 1249916780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :golden rule and all that. obsolete clearly :P < 1249917172 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249917464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a rumour that Motorola's building two keyboardy Android phones; the second one ("Sholes") might have a 854x480 display (so 266 DPI) and built on the TI OMAP3430; that's a 600 MHz ARM + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430 MHz TI C64x DSP core. < 1249917534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no gigahertz, but still. Google's been promising that later releases of that "NDK" native-code development kit will allow linking with the OpenGL ES 2.0 and audio libraries. Currently I thinki it's just libc+libm and all "interesting" parts have to be done with their JVM code. < 1249917562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how large is the screen then < 1249917574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"45.72 mm by 81.34 mm". < 1249917581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1249917583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of this is very confirmed information. < 1249917591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1249917612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*waits for dual core processors in phones* < 1249917653 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know < 1249917662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other Motorola thing, "Morrison", is (maybe) going to be some sort of lower-end device, with a 480x320 screen and the "default" 528 MHz ARM that's in the Hero and G1 and whatnot. < 1249917707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's already three cores if you count the CPU, GPU and DSP. (I doubt the DSP is very application-accessible, though, and I don't know how much OpenGL ES 2.0 does programmabilities in shaders and such.) < 1249917725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that "powervr" thing < 1249917749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what brand makes them and such < 1249917755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of that gpu product before < 1249917769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is povervr the brand? < 1249917770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, PowerVR makes them. It's very common for mobile 3D. < 1249917786 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently a "division of Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic)". < 1249917791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249917801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in use in many high-end cellphones including the Apple iPhone, Nokia N95, Sony Ericsson P1, and Motorola RIZR Z8" -- quite a list. < 1249917894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the 535 used in the iPhone 3GS does double as many (28 vs. 14) millions of polygons per second as the 530 model. < 1249917900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I still haven't finished logreading yet! < 1249917901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:05:17 so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? < 1249917902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249917906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've heard some schonberg < 1249917907 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1249917913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i seem to recall it was a lot better than any other classical i've heard. < 1249918009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Schönberg had different "periods" in his composing, to begin with he wasn't atonal. iirc < 1249918039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no expert on Schönberg though < 1249918108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a brief googling i conclude that indeed it is awesome < 1249918149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the power glove was ALMOST awesome < 1249918165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the buttons should have been where you'd make a fist < 1249918168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can use one hand < 1249918227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:11:19 im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs < 1249918227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i use proprietary software just to annoy stallmanites < 1249918269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt the emacs as environment stuff, emacs is a bad lisp os < 1249918280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stupidly focuses on one widget, the text editor < 1249918573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Emacs, minimalist? < 1249918591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a freaking Lisp OS. < 1249918660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more minimalistic than Emacs does not imply much minimalism. < 1249918684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "more minimalistic than emacs". < 1249918687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread that sentence. < 1249918701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"More minimialistic, like Emacs." < 1249918819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah. "Tea Party" member starts a brawl in a town hall during a health debate, gets injured. He's now asking for donations, since he doesn't have insurance. < 1249919102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249919109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll donate minus dollars. < 1249919185 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249919205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll donate exactly one socialist dollar. < 1249919213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka €) < 1249919246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249919287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/ < 1249919292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very interesting < 1249919300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. selections are a submenu in the right click < 1249919308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't any global menus, just right clicking < 1249919316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the menus have text input and other things < 1249919322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of an interface unto themselves < 1249919325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*onto, whatever < 1249919365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ofc it was the first OS with text antialiasing... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/RISCOS_4_scr.png < 1249919383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even subpixel, says wikipedia < 1249919404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty awesome when you consider that they also invented ARM < 1249919461 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ui looks pretty wimpy to me. < 1249919464 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make an esolang that resembles an alien language < 1249919470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: "wimpy"? < 1249919478 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is no doubt a good WIMP, but still a wimp < 1249919478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an awful way to classify a gui < 1249919488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it looks, easy, and, and, usable and wimpy" < 1249919496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah yeah i get it) < 1249919497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(joking) < 1249919514 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: as in tuomo's definition, windows, icons, menus and pointer < 1249919517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1249919524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: anyway it was released in 1988 < 1249919525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1249919534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: but there are interesting details < 1249919538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of which I mentioned < 1249919540 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/asiekierka/2D-Sandbox/tree/master - something i've been making < 1249919540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that no other OS has afaik < 1249919575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(asiekierka figured out how to use git?) < 1249919601 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1249919607 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much but a bit, yeah < 1249919635 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :FLYING PEOPLE (and wimpy ui's) *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby ban asiekierka from modifying the topic. < 1249919656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :flaught http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919674 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: indeed, but too small differences and too late. oberon ui has more chances. < 1249919683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION changes asiekierka's topic to: main = getArgs >>= parseFromFile toplevel . head >>= either print print < 1249919698 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :#esoteric is now unofficially #ehirdland | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop, it, asiekierka < 1249919707 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What < 1249919707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: did I say it's the best UI ever? < 1249919713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said that it has some interesting aspects < 1249919720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919744 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _HATE_ you < 1249919748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pony. < 1249919771 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, by the way, does 'fs' in 'hostfs' stand for filesystem? < 1249919785 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not set +t on this channel? < 1249919795 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because no-one is ops heres < 1249919795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: (a) prolly (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics < 1249919805 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: apart from fizzie and lament < 1249919809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who have both talked a lot today < 1249919838 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :(b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka < 1249919848 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1249919850 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just < 1249919850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Stop being dumb. < 1249919850 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1249919851 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :citing you < 1249919853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish you would either go away or stop changing the topic like that < 1249919857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249919878 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I change the topic like that then < 1249919912 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249919921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stab thee. < 1249919976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ſtab þee < 1249920000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: i thought you were disappearing for a month anyway or something < 1249920039 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249920040 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249920057 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my weekends aren't that long < 1249920061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249920068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :durr I'm stupid < 1249920111 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can just shut up and pretend I'm still on vacation. < 1249920124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1249920185 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, speaking of guis, k3 gui is one of the best I've seen < 1249920198 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's purely data-driven and reactive < 1249920226 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc clean has something of the sort, haskell and ocaml still have quite some problems with frp implementations < 1249920237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k3 gui gooling helps not, plz linky < 1249920238 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I haven't seen anything working < 1249920252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my os' ui is hilariously undecided < 1249920276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i haven't even considered FRP, that's how much of a conservative curmudgeon I am! < 1249920335 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the reference is only available as a pdf < 1249920355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine < 1249920363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my OS is unannoying enough to handle PDFs smoothly < 1249920413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Really, it's only Windows that doesn't... < 1249920422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe's PDF reader. *shudder* < 1249920433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux doesn't let you view a pdf as smoothly as if it was just an html page does it? < 1249920435 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what's your os? < 1249920439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: OS X < 1249920445 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249920446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Windows is indeed the worst < 1249920463 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some examples with screenies: http://nsl.com/papers/calculator.htm < 1249920469 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nsl.com/papers/instant.htm < 1249920480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah an nsl dealie < 1249920482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always fun < 1249920485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: oh k3 < 1249920486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1249920488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k v3 < 1249920497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was some fun obscure os called K3 or sth < 1249920506 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1249920506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I thought you mean the UIs themselves were FR somehow < 1249920511 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the k os is called kaos < 1249920516 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's yet to be written < 1249920518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k3's ui code looks very nice, resulting uis are still wimp though < 1249920528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You people know Scheme right? < 1249920533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1249920537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :collectively. :P < 1249920539 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, eh, they are designed to map to x11/winapi? < 1249920544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: well, yeah < 1249920547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just mean the paradigm < 1249920553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a criticism < 1249920557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just saying i misinterpreted it < 1249920565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: but k doesn't use native windows widgets < 1249920568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, then tell me whether/why (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((m (x ((((#(y))))) ...)) '(y ...)))) is valid with (m (x)) being the empty list < 1249920585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html < 1249920586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249920594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3 < 1249920601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ macro definition < 1249920610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a few pages < 1249920629 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: don't know enough about winapi, but probably. any way, doing an oberon-like thing in this style is even simpler, considering the implementation of acme. < 1249920639 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249920644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acme? i only know it as the wonderful plan 9 editor < 1249920647 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I /definitely/ want such a UI! < 1249920650 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that. < 1249920657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that oberon-style? < 1249920667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acme's pretty damn awesome, needs a bit more discoverability though < 1249920674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically have to know how to do the transformation you want < 1249920677 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite, oberon also did graphics though. < 1249920712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I've read it through about 20 times < 1249920725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: meditate a bit, try in a few other implementations < 1249920735 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that means knowing sam (or acme's builtin text processing language which is the same) and unix/plan9 tools < 1249920738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? < 1249920745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: yeah < 1249920747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1249920751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acme is nice if you know it < 1249920753 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm not interested in the result, I'm interested in whether the spec says it or not :-P < 1249920770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes, and if implementations disagree you need to check the spec more closely < 1249920774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me it seems as though it only says "[the pattern variables] are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated." < 1249920776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they agree it's likely they're right < 1249920800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: try SISC < 1249920809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it passes the extremely perverted R5RS edgecase tests, so < 1249920812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, to me, seems like "it's obvious so we won't go into the details" or "we don't give a shit about the details" and I'm not sure which one they mean < 1249920844 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, limiting the graphical options of a widget toolkit is certainly worth having the ability to code the ui in K3 style < 1249920866 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again: Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? < 1249920879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: i don't believe limitation of such things is ever neccessary < 1249920889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: we're not answering your question because it's tedious and you ask it all the time < 1249920968 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, it's not that easy to map some more obscure gui elements to the data < 1249920978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the paradigm is limited < 1249920993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol's os/ui ideas seem to strike a nice balance, vague as they are < 1249920996 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249921000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they map quite a bit to mine < 1249921063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokol: basically (I'm going to be second-hand egotistical (does that even make sense?) and assume you vaguely care), < 1249921071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249921072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: < 1249921106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some data (object, whatever) is viewed/modified through the "view" of some behaviour defining a ui element < 1249921107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: SISC agrees with mzscheme < 1249921119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this directly manipulates the underlying data reference < 1249921119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't care, I want to know where the hell they're getting this from < 1249921130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can take out the object and give it a new interface and they sync up < 1249921144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could e.g. < 1249921144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be running a rotate view on an image, < 1249921149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then take out the underlying object and put it in a zoom view < 1249921151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then set a zoom < 1249921155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you used the rotate view some more < 1249921161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the zoomer would update according to the new underlying object < 1249921175 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds somewhat close to MVC to me. < 1249921182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: it's not, though < 1249921188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's far more functional/non-destructive < 1249921197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the "views" are much more lightweight < 1249921214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very close to directly manipulating the object < 1249921223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the viewing/manipulation is abstracted away < 1249921224 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason frp works in k3 is that it has a very simple type system, doing what you're proposing probably requires much more < 1249921234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, this could work trivially with dynamic/duck typing < 1249921244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need objects < 1249921247 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K does that, but only for a string repr.: < 1249921267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, you basically making UIs by composing mini objects with abstracted direct-manipulations < 1249921268 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every value is assigned two functions, ..f and ..u, which is format and update respectively < 1249921281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and feed the underlying data into other things < 1249921284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus locking things together < 1249921293 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first maps the value to string, the second does the reverse whenever the user updates the screen view < 1249921353 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, again, the same as with acme: we vaguely inderstand how to do all this with plain text but not with anything else < 1249921373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really don't think the idea i'm expressing is mvc though < 1249921407 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recall the usual wysiwyg problem, you just can't present rich text on screen in an editable way so you could re-serialize it with some degree of common sense < 1249921434 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, what you're expressing is very close to what K does < 1249921436 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1249921442 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249921453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is that you can build any sort of UI with it, because it's essentially completely generic < 1249921457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw this, this is UB. < 1249921462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as your UI maps to some tangible data, which is always good UI practice < 1249921513 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, our ajax k ui thingy seems to be in the middle of a yet another revamp, so I can't show you that on the web < 1249921549 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it basically doesn't do editing now < 1249921564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you the nsl.com owner? unless there's a bunch of people who do both K and esolangs < 1249921569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I wouldn't put past the language < 1249921616 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1249921703 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249921729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that killed the channel :) < 1249921737 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the person behind nsl.com is stevan apter < 1249921762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :) < 1249921793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249921824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i've looked into k it's just seemed like it's bogged down by corporate concerns etc and there's no real easy way to get into programming fun stuff with it < 1249921886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that program by kx that converted k code into english made an impression on me though < 1249921897 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can see, stevan does. :-) I'm trying as well. < 1249921901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249921909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: is my impression that k4/q sort of drifts away from this sort of stuff correct? < 1249921921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i couldn't find a free k3 binary anywhere. < 1249921939 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it has neither ui nor the dependency/fr stuff < 1249921951 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nsl.com/misc/int/ < 1249921962 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both documentation and distributions < 1249921966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: heh, it just had to have every platform but mine < 1249921974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know k4 supports osx, maybe k3 didn't < 1249921987 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, only linux, solaris and windows :-( < 1249921998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uberlame < 1249922032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know qemu has something that might let me run the linux one natively < 1249922035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that forwards the syscalls or something < 1249922035 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but indeed I find k4/q much less fun < 1249922041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that just same-os, different-arch i wonder < 1249922044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc it only works on linux < 1249922070 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osx is ought to have some linux syscall emulator < 1249922078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit of a niche market < 1249922085 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every other os (well, except windows) seems to have one < 1249922087 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249922093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need it for games like bsd, because more games exist for osx than linux, < 1249922108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most other "linux" only software is foss and works on bsds too < 1249922113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of which osx is one) < 1249922127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proprietary app that supports linux but not osx is a rare thing < 1249922182 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, then you're probably out of luck ;-) < 1249922196 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wait while we finish the web version of k3 ui < 1249922199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[QEMU has two operating modes[2]: < 1249922199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :User mode emulation < 1249922200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QEMU can launch Linux or Darwin/Mac OS X processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. Target OS system calls are thunked for endianness and 32/64 bit mismatches.]] < 1249922201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dammit* < 1249922222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: is that like some try ruby sorta dealie < 1249922228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tryruby.hobix.com < 1249922264 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, *this* functionality already works, but the ui can only do scalars and number lists < 1249922278 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't that much fun < 1249922304 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one (mis)feature tryruby lacks is of course the ability to do a rm -rf * < 1249922323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's, a feature? :D < 1249922324 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because K has no built-in ways to disable harmful stuff < 1249922335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor ruby < 1249922344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tryruby uses why's freaky deaky sandbox (real name) < 1249922351 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249922362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a patch to the impl and some gnarly ruby code < 1249922375 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then I could as well. K seems to feel pretty comfortable chrootted to an empty dir < 1249922399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do what GregorR's HackEgo does < 1249922400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1249922401 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23971 < 1249922403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: use plash < 1249922409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a debian thingy that lets you totally isolate stuff < 1249922413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chrooted, random user id each time < 1249922418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syscalls selectively enabled etc < 1249922480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if i could convince cygwin to compile on os x < 1249922492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(answer: no) < 1249922605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.openlina.com/ iiinteresting, apparently you can make it seamlessly do linux cli apps on os x < 1249922610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as well as gui apps on etc etc) < 1249922623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1249922625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i'll try it < 1249922704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: am I right in thinking that most of k's benefit comes from the libs rather than the core language? < 1249922711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to reimplement the latter < 1249922779 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprisingly, it seems that it's the other way around < 1249922789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1249922793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the semantics don't seem overly complex. < 1249922807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: of course, i know the paradigm is powerful < 1249922814 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least while quite a lot of smart people like K, there isn't any implementation < 1249922822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1249922830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't any implementation? < 1249922832 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one reason maybe it that the existing one is good enough for them. :-) < 1249922836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249922843 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, except the official one < 1249922852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: it's just a question of, if you reimplemented the core language and not the libs, people wouldn't use it < 1249922863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it'd be, while a powerful paradigm, not very useful < 1249922865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1249922875 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, the most surprising thing is that there aren't any "libs" < 1249922883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gui, f'instance < 1249922884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kdb < 1249922890 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, there is a lot of stuff people use on the internet, but it's not standard < 1249922892 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kdb -- yes < 1249922898 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gui is built-in < 1249922904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just trying to figure out if/why a foss would be hard/impractical < 1249922918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, ok, so there's no libs < 1249922921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that just means the core language is big < 1249922924 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a question I keep wondering about for almost a year now. < 1249922924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the gui < 1249922932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a foss reimplementation < 1249922936 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the gui is about 60% of the implementation < 1249922936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't go around dropping words. < 1249922941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1249922950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without the gui, it wouldn't be nearly as useful, i gather < 1249922971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately a reimplementation would be almost possible unless you're a k guru since all you have is a binary blob... < 1249922975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the docs are really precise < 1249922987 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1249923003 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and then comes the question why the said 'k gurus' don't reimplement it. < 1249923021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, kref.pdf is ridiculously long < 1249923023 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249923023 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the nsl.com owner, who has created a few dozen k-like languages /in k/ < 1249923037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: better things to do i guess < 1249923061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're on supported platforms, don't want to change the language in ways that require the source and have a copy of the impl & manual < 1249923064 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I asked him about it he said that the implementation doesn't matter, ideas do < 1249923083 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually I guess he has the source as well. :-) < 1249923085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's a wonderful philosophical yammering but doesn't change the reality of what the closed-sourceness limits :P < 1249923090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, exactly < 1249923095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed source seems fine from the inside < 1249923108 0 :pikhq__!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249923109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: probably also a question of loyalty to kx < 1249923166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, seems that way to me < 1249923184 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's what I figured, but the question is harder than that -- there is a now-opensource a+ which is a k predecessor and shares many features with it < 1249923192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked at a+ < 1249923194 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically noone seems to be interested in it < 1249923196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frankly the code looks ugly < 1249923198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1249923199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the A+ code < 1249923200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the impl < 1249923207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems to lack things like the gui < 1249923228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: I think the people who would use A+ use J instead < 1249923235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a single reason to use A+ instead of J < 1249923263 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source availability again? :-) < 1249923284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: but nobody seems to care about that :\ < 1249923286 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't say there aren't any places in K I wouldn't like to tweak a bit < 1249923288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not in this circle < 1249923313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm tempted to try reimplementing K < 1249923326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be a nice way to learn it ;-) < 1249923341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K's gui does look like the nicest way to hack a quick UI up on current systems < 1249923361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if I wanted something polished, i.e. not just something for me and a few others to quickly jab at, i'd always hand-craft it on current systems < 1249923370 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's what my friend and me are doing for the last year or so, however, we're currently mostly doing K code than implement K < 1249923389 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want, come join us < 1249923401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? :P < 1249923429 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately we mostly do xmpp < 1249923443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a google talk account, though adium's chat support is lacking. < 1249923452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1249923453 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, we use a MUC :-( < 1249923455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: colloquy does xmpp! < 1249923463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as SILC and some ancient protocol called ICB < 1249923466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so xmpp is fine < 1249923473 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1249923497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm not sure how you do a MUC on another server with xmpp < 1249923523 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your client should have an explicit option for that < 1249923656 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the C implementation we just hit a wall because we apparently needed something cooler than CPP < 1249923714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: something more than cpp? have you SEEN arthur whitney's j prototype? :D < 1249923734 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249923736 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen, read and -i hope- understood < 1249923746 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as some amount of a+ and j7 code. < 1249923748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after de-cppization you can sort of understand it IME < 1249923765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably go crazy and write it in Haskell or Scheme < 1249923769 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(j7 is an old source-available version of J) < 1249923769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because why not?!?! < 1249923775 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we tried SML < 1249923808 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got stuck because it lacked high-order polymorphism and so there was boilerplate all over the code < 1249923817 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249923821 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, haskell would be slow, K is fast ;-) < 1249923824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has polyhistomorphic functors up the wazoo! < 1249923826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: HEY! < 1249923828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell ain't slow. < 1249923833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc's pretty sufficiently smart < 1249923853 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249923853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249923853 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249923977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. < 1249924002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249924017 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: you'll have to repeat your last /msg or two < 1249924026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :client crashed < 1249924040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. < 1249924046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what thou missed. < 1249924066 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: K as in a marketed solution pretty much depends on gcc sse vectorisations, so sorry, we need you beloved for(;;) loops. < 1249924086 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249924087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: haskell has smart vectorisation actually. < 1249924122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249924133 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehehehehe < 1249924140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to repeat your last /msg again :-( < 1249924146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION deletes all contacts from gtalk < 1249924150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe my client won't crash then < 1249924186 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924204 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: just use bitlbee with your irc client < 1249924219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much work. I'll just make a jabber.org account < 1249924223 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that was easy < 1249924254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :username, password, repeat password, captcha < 1249924256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249924271 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924274 0 :oklokol!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924274 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924318 0 :pikhq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249924358 0 :fizzie`!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249924582 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924615 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249924625 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249924919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: how fast IS k btw? < 1249924940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get the impression it's basically going at the speed of light wrt the bog-standard vector operation < 1249924949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deriving any speed benefits from that < 1249924959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can it run on a gpu? :)) < 1249925046 0 :oklokol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1249925109 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually k has the same speed as good C code < 1249925127 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for the very reason of it being a thin wrapper around good C array processing code < 1249925137 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw people run Q with CUDA < 1249925164 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, implementing K functions in C is very easy < 1249925185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the issue is when you do something that isn't really an array < 1249925192 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, so K gets you good data parallelism. < 1249925201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( yeah, we can't do all these things: nothing) < 1249925266 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, data parallelism is not hard to do well. < 1249925284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Is that a vaguely dressed diss of K I see before me?! < 1249925293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249925318 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Not especially. Data parallelism does need to be done well. It's more a complaint about people focusing *soley* on that. < 1249925333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever used an array language? < 1249925337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not for the performance < 1249925339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for the paradigm < 1249925355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are genuinely pleasant to use < 1249925370 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah; K seems to focus on making it very clear what the code's doing, and it just happens to get good performance. < 1249925410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1249925413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K is very, very implicit < 1249925425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least by my reading. < 1249925450 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... Algorithmically. < 1249925456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, though < 1249925462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K's algorithms are all internal < 1249925463 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k isn't that large, but it's difficult to read unless you know all the syntax < 1249925467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm reading it very wrongly < 1249925473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never really see actual K algorithms < 1249925475 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. I'm saying this wrong. < 1249925476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does them for you < 1249925487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k is still one of my favourite pieces of code to date < 1249925522 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it clear that you're, say, "doing vector operations foo bar and baz to vectors 1 through 3", I mean. < 1249925531 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I may just be sounding stupid right now. < 1249925532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: vectors 1 through 3? < 1249925534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean "vectors" < 1249925542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vector operations? you mean regular operations? :P < 1249925545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/calc.k // am i reading this correctly as oop? < 1249925552 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249925554 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yes. < 1249925556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it copies J's ugly of using strings as method bodies < 1249925567 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: nope < 1249925572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what're those strings then < 1249925583 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean dots or what? < 1249925583 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249925595 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, it's trying to be like APL, without the need for a space cadet keyboard. < 1249925624 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sorry? < 1249925632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calc.eval:"exp:5:. exp" < 1249925634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"" < 1249925644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: no, that's j < 1249925653 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm being dumb, then. < 1249925666 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calc is a dictionary, that is a keyed table < 1249925675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the strings < 1249925684 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an entry 'eval' has the given value < 1249925703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a string < 1249925705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's it a string < 1249925707 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1249925726 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the K reference it is stated that when a data item is shown as a button its action is determined by evaluating its value < 1249925730 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's the code to run < 1249925799 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 08:49:47 --- quit: Asztal (Success) < 1249925801 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exp:5:. exp is something like "exp = show $ eval exp" in something like haskell < 1249925804 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn all these successful errors < 1249925820 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, something like something like. < 1249925840 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an 'eval' function in Haskell? < 1249925841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: so, right, as a string < 1249925878 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, because k ui generally prefers strings over niladic functions < 1249925903 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249925903 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-117-019.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249925909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249925921 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249925968 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249926262 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@129.33.193.104 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249926458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Ĝis" < 1249926632 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249926758 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1/20090707221522]" < 1249926773 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-255.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249927636 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :fizzie < 1249927711 0 :Tenacity!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249928212 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249928317 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh ewird < 1249928322 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1249928361 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the count of something is: something count or somethings count? < 1249928368 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user count or users count? < 1249928381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Users" < 1249928389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"User count" < 1249928401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't say that. < 1249928444 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" but don't say that." ... why not? < 1249928450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds awkward. < 1249928483 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'm going to have to go figure out the people-who-find-that-phrasing-awkward count. < 1249928490 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249928493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's less awkward. < 1249928503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1249928536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you on drugs? < 1249928538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it! < 1249928557 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on it < 1249928562 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like drugs < 1249928575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on like < 1249928579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks drugs it < 1249928597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are drugs it? < 1249928603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drugs look < 1249928605 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you look on < 1249928719 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like drugs the < 1249928724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a a the drugs like the < 1249928739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i on the is the i'm it the looks < 1249928864 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249928922 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249929186 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249929496 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole K look weird < 1249929509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1249929740 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1249929837 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking about buying Snow Leopard < 1249930116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll set you back all of less than 30bux < 1249930238 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it's worth it < 1249930255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249930278 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1249930306 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249930306 0 :MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-255.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249930309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: i haven't used it < 1249930328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously, only an iphone user would consider $30 a lot for software, why in my day we had bbedit < 1249930330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it cost $99 < 1249930335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we were happy, we were < 1249930363 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249930600 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google bbedit < 1249930601 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBEdit 9. Bare Bones Software develops and publishes software for OS X, ... Get started with a look at BBEdit, our flagship editor or Yojimbo, ... \ www.barebones.com/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar < 1249930615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: since System 6 iirc < 1249930620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "canonical" macintosh code editor < 1249930628 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People wrote code on System 6? < 1249930637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: People wrote code on System 1. :P < 1249930645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, well, everything was plain text back then. < 1249930648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, non-code too. < 1249930651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless it was word processed) < 1249930664 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My boss at Intel, who previously worked at Apple, told horror stories of cross-compiling all their code from AIX workstations. < 1249930691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AIX Version 1, introduced in 1986 for the IBM 6150 RT workstation" < 1249930701 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in the PPC days, mind you. < 1249930702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Release date April, 1988 (info)" — [[System 6]] < 1249930715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: yeah, ppc came in the system 7 days < 1249930722 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of this I am aware. < 1249930738 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if they were using AIX for PPC, I find it hard to believe they did everything natively on m68k :P < 1249930818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I know that there have been programs written on System 6, for System 6, in its heyday. < 1249930841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, Mark Pilgrim's GPL'd (basically the only programs to be licensed that way at the time) apps. < 1249930842 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't doubt it, I just find it terrifying :) < 1249930844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://diveintomark.org/projects/classic/ < 1249930887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system 6 is quite capable < 1249930952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW 1.0 was apparently released in 1986, and I'm sure someone used it too. < 1249930973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that thing < 1249930974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :codeworks < 1249930976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it was < 1249931012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think CodeWarrior at least did some 68k stuff. < 1249931026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that thing < 1249931029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, urbandictionary confuses me < 1249931031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[A word describing somebody who is uncomfortable being openly amiable and kind, so they give more subtle hints to their goodwill while maintaining a disagreeable exterior. See also. < 1249931031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That man spent the entire meal complaining to me about my service, and then he left me a $5 tip. He's totally aggressive passive.]] < 1249931037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's brain explodes < 1249931081 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249931083 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1249931090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CodeWarrior people did a Symbian development system too. And something for the PlayStation. < 1249931124 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Even more amazing was the Macintosh Development System, an assembly-only tool that was Apple's very first tool for developing on the Mac (earlier Mac software was cross-developed on the Lisa). MDS will run on a Mac 512 with System 2!" < 1249931144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CodeWarrior was originally developed by Metrowerks based on a C compiler and environment for 68k, developed by Andreas Hommel and licensed to Metrowerks. The first versions of CodeWarrior targeted the PowerPC Macintosh, with much of the development done by a group from the original THINK C team. Much like THINK C, which was known for its fast compile times, CodeWarrior was faster than Macintosh Programmer's Workshop (MPW), the development tools written by App < 1249931149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1249931150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THINK_C < 1249931154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1986 grr < 1249931163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: lisa makes sense < 1249931163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249931165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: < 1249931166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW's free nowadays, which is nice. I installed some version on that Performa. < 1249931185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to install it but it's distributed as 9348578934579345 separate files < 1249931187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each component < 1249931279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FTP site has single .img.bin files in addition to the Segmented_Image ".img_NNof24.bin" nonsense. At least for some parts. Don't remember how it was when I installed it. < 1249931295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, a fuckton of .img.bin files < 1249931536 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bellard.org/otcc/otcc.c man, this is nice < 1249931561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bellard.org/tcc/ non-obfuscated cousHOLY SHIT < 1249931567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 64-bit guy who gave up just got a release! < 1249931575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this." < 1249931577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude. < 1249931579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's shinh. < 1249931581 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait whaaaaaaa < 1249931609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shinh of anarchy golf revived tcc along with someone else :D < 1249931642 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Schweet. < 1249931683 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that otcc looks awesome < 1249931947 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOPCC < 1249931972 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :International Obfuscated Pascal Code Contest < 1249931977 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha < 1249932011 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should exist < 1249932014 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, IOCCC looks awesome < 1249932028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program WhatTheFuck(Input, Output); < 1249932038 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program W(I,O); < 1249932049 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uses crt < 1249932062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1249932067 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOBCC < 1249932072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going by very old pascal here < 1249932073 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :International Obfuscated Bash Code Contest < 1249932088 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh < 1249932170 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a Piet interpreter in obfuscated C :P < 1249932189 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that'd be too big < 1249932237 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait < 1249932244 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a C obfuscator in obfuscated C, maybe < 1249932256 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't anyone do thatr < 1249932258 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do that* < 1249932316 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I could run the C obfuscator through a C beautifer and use my C obfuscator on the result so we can see if it's better or worse than human work < 1249932325 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...That makes sense in a very nonsensical way < 1249932371 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm not the first one to request pascal < 1249932371 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Syntax-Games-td171449.html < 1249932657 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s w(h) e. < 1249932666 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a hello world in obfuscated-ish pascal < 1249932676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd wager you weren't < 1249932811 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1249932816 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whar do you mean < 1249933043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager < 1249933121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pascal's wager must have been a troll < 1249933124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so hilariously wrong < 1249933180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it was posthumous < 1249933199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :posthumorous < 1249933202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not humorous at all < 1249933596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very grave matter indeed < 1249933607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides < 1249933621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder why there aren't virtual machines that can change their memory allocation dynamically according to need. < 1249934115 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249934189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean by that; if you just mean adding/removing memory allocated to a particular quest system, at least Xen and I think KVM can do that for Linux guests with the "balloon" driver. < 1249934254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quest system < 1249934282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They're operating systems that are on a sort of a vision quest. < 1249934314 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1249934342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i meant automatically < 1249934343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1249934348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's using n megs, it gets n+a little megs < 1249934349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of < 1249934351 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-255.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249934354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this vm wants umm 573 mb < 1249934359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops i ran out of fake memory < 1249934387 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't get it < 1249934392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably never will < 1249934406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately i'm not the one being talked to, because i'm being inactive < 1249934409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that there's the mechanisms for dynamically changing the memory amounts, I'm sure someone has rigged up some sort of automatic system. < 1249934520 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Running Xen" book says "If a user desired an automatic policy for memory management, one could be written without much trouble" and then some ideas about scripting one, but maybe it hasn't been implemented. < 1249934586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VMware ESX apparently (haven't used it) has some sort of system where you define minimum, maximum and percentage shares for all machines, and then it periodically samples those machines and steals memory from machines not using it, and gives it to heavily loaded ones. < 1249934747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xen isn't acceptable < 1249934750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm running other oses < 1249934766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically running server ubuntu, mounting os x dirs, hiding it then sshing in < 1249934768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := linux emulator < 1249935797 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1249935856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: why huh < 1249935895 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1249935907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1249935909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why say why < 1249935910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249935911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why say huh < 1249935971 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to run separate OSes on multi-core processor so that they feel as if ran on single computer? < 1249935985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249935988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga doesn't know what a vm is. < 1249935995 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1249936016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: modern vms run the instructions directly on your hardware < 1249936016 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to run lilnux in a vm that is a program in OS X's user space < 1249936017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with VT-e < 1249936027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this happens in kernel spac < 1249936027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1249936033 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to run linux and OS X parallel < 1249936033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only emulated part is the devices < 1249936039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑, you're being stupid < 1249936040 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249936043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249936049 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i know i'm stupid < 1249936057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: you could make an OS that optimises the shit out of the devices part and only runs a vm < 1249936060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be nice and fast < 1249936121 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought there is some thin layer that allows to boot several OSes at once and keep them running on separate cores sharing ram and shit < 1249936158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just a "VM OS" running multiple vms with uber-optimised virtual devices (can't get around that) < 1249936165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with dynamic memory allocation, I guess < 1249936193 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be done by hardware :D < 1249936328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1249936334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware doesn't do task switching, either < 1249936338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't complain about the performance of that < 1249936348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that VM products have to route the virtual devices through an existing OS < 1249936355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which adds a lot of overhead < 1249936356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249936361 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249936362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1249936570 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249936717 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got PC and mac and 2 lcd displays, it'd be cool to place the displays next to each other and use one keyboard and mouse, like i'm moving mouse cursor from one screen to another (from OS X to linux, for instance) and keyboard automagically changes focus + ability to drag files from one desktop to another would be nice < 1249936759 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it's possible with a piece of clever hardware and relatively simple software on both machines < 1249936793 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, just one slightly-more-clever piece of software. < 1249936850 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1249936878 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liek connecting input devices to one computer and writing network based mouse+kbd driver for the second computer < 1249936909 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooooooor .. http://synergy2.sf.net/ < 1249936913 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1249936918 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew it < 1249936951 0 :ski__!n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249937033 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's such a good idea that it had to be done ;D < 1249937078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been using Synergy2 for that lately; earlier I used a VNC client I wrote that did not fetch display updates at all, just sent keyboard and mouse events, but that had some video-related problems. < 1249937085 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There would be advantages to the hardware/software version. < 1249937402 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm < 1249937532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249937627 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1249937826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249938135 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249939788 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249940584 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249940767 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attack of the pikhqs! < 1249941026 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249941027 0 :MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-3.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249941037 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249941048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1249941052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolcats are over a hundred years old < 1249941075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AntiqueLolcat.jpg < 1249941079 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1249941083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a postcard from 1905 < 1249941087 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249941095 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a lolcat :P < 1249941107 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was, it'd say "WHERE R MY DIN-DIN" < 1249941128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well remember < 1249941132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was a more civilized time < 1249941135 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249941136 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the breakdown of kitty grammar < 1249941227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol a cat < 1249941244 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is your father's grammar, for a more... civilized age. < 1249941265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that some kinda reference to something < 1249941265 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: NO QUOTING XKCD < 1249941275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's the Star Wars, you may have heard of it. < 1249941287 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's xkcd now :P < 1249941295 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally forgot that that was a reference >_> < 1249941303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they stole it; though the parentheses thing wasn't original in xkcd either. < 1249941306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actully do vaguely remember seeing something like that on xkcd < 1249941308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I think it wasn't. < 1249941340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the context in sw < 1249941354 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's about Luke's father's lightsaber. < 1249941362 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a more elegant weapon than some clumsy blaster. < 1249941378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Obi-Wan guy's presenting it to Luke. < 1249941382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249941383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, is it "*from* a more..."? < 1249941410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your father's light saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." < 1249941431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you trust IMDb. < 1249941451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rights. < 1249941459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it funny that obi wan talks about blaster randomness < 1249941471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's obi wan again < 1249941473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the storm trooper blasters are notorious for being compeltely random < 1249941473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems I misspelled "light saber", though. < 1249941495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: He's the "old mentor" guy, you must know the type. < 1249941506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, hes the obiwan of starwars < 1249941532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is he yoda < 1249941536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1249941541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoda is the yoda of star wars < 1249941555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see what you're doing there! < 1249941557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...stop it < 1249941558 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then who was phone? < 1249941569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the famous part in the first movie about "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise", when they for the remaining part of the saga can't hit the broad side of a barn. < 1249941574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG << obiwan < 1249941576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.classesandcareers.net/education-careers/wp-content/uploads/yoda.jpg << yoda < 1249941593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell them apart by the colour. < 1249941603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that dude < 1249941606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi, dont be racist < 1249941614 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i do in fact remember yoda < 1249941625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talked funnily did he. < 1249941629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember all things except human faces < 1249941630 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judge them not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character judge them by. < 1249941634 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he did fizzie < 1249941636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not like that :D < 1249941650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*talk? < 1249941653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I didn't want to be a plagiarist. < 1249941666 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSV, fizzie < 1249941667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his syntax was mostly OSV < 1249941672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not entirely < 1249941690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language log has a whole slew of posts on yoda grammar < 1249941703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... it'd be "he talked funnily"? < 1249941710 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249941713 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1249941714 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's SVO < 1249941720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily is O? < 1249941722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily he talked, hmmMMMmm? < 1249941731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not O < 1249941751 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1249941760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEN I GUESS YOU WERE NOT BEING 100% TRUTHISHFULL THERE HUH < 1249941770 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor wasnt, at least < 1249941776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said "but not entirely" :D < 1249941781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1249941789 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's effectively the object. Object doesn't always imply noun. < 1249941792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is true that he can be OSV and still do that sort of thing < 1249941794 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in grammar it doesn't. < 1249941801 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: its actually not really an object < 1249941822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: so not the object < 1249941829 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an adverbial modifier < 1249941829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is more of an object < 1249941837 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the original sentence was "he funnily talked", then "funnily" would be an adverbial modifier. < 1249941847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no gregor < 1249941854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an adverbial in both cases < 1249941866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact "he funnily talked" is rather bad < 1249941881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manner adverbials prefer to follow the VP in english < 1249941913 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grammar, Gregor hates. < 1249941921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now THAT is an object. :) < 1249941941 0 :pikhq__!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249941953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he funnily talked himself out of the situation; he talked funnily during it < 1249941958 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249941963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i guess that's not right. < 1249941989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"he funnily talked ..." sounds more like a parenthetical to me < 1249941993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in like < 1249942003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"he funnily enough talked himself out of the situation! haha :D" < 1249942004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"funnily enough, he ..."? < 1249942006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1249942075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i just tried to make a "funnily enough", you make me so self-conscious of my not being native that everything feels incorrect < 1249942099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww dont worry oklopol < 1249942117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its your incorrectnesses that enrich english < 1249942166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discussing grammar, are you? < 1249942169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most clearly that must be true < 1249942180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed we are < 1249942187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grammar you are discussing, mmhmmmmm? < 1249942197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no oklopol < 1249942201 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again bad yoda talk < 1249942205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's was correct < 1249942209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey. i just know what you give me < 1249942221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was? < 1249942223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249942238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought i swapped are and you < 1249942244 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point was mostly that your VSO sounded stupid in that one < 1249942244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did that too, but its a question < 1249942249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1249942250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1249942251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and english has subject-auxiliary inversion in questions < 1249942253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mispermuted < 1249942262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoda's grammar doesn't, afaik, change that < 1249942267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1249942332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001269089414569134552%3Aqvjtfauf7ou&ie=UTF-8&q=yoda&sa=Search < 1249942381 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249942385 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249942426 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249942437 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249943289 0 :pikhq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249943324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1249943329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see the th-character now < 1249943332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like magix < 1249943351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thorn? < 1249943377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249943379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1249943446 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249944226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249944619 0 :pikhq__!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249944818 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249945219 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249945249 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249945831 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1249946042 0 :pikhq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249946903 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249947718 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249947797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249947812 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249947875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night"