< 1249689605 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont have to go fast at all, if you go right up to the pole, you can just put your hand on the pole and spin around it in circles til you get dizzy < 1249689617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: The secret of eternal youth is going to a black hole. < 1249689627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and doing what? < 1249689630 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and balancing on the event horizon? < 1249689633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing < 1249689633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also secret of becoming thin < 1249689636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very thing < 1249689638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thin < 1249689651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. < 1249689673 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not true - you are *eternally* visible to external observers if you fall into a black hole < 1249689683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm invisibility, eternal youth and thinness < 1249689686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. <-- is it just me or does that remind you of monty python for some reason? < 1249689688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :black holes could solve all our problems. < 1249689690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, after a while you'll get so faint that people won't be able to see the resulting photons < 1249689691 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however its true you get so red-shifted its very hard to actually see you < 1249689693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1249689693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: No. < 1249689699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not just you. < 1249689702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1249689707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit AnMaster < 1249689713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you broke the chain of "name: no" < 1249689714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of what the sketch was though < 1249689719 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^what ais523 said, he understands what i meant < 1249689721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even pikhq continued it though accidentally < 1249689724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I didn't. pikhq did < 1249689731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh he did? < 1249689738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:01] pikhq: mycroftiv: No. < 1249689738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "not just" < 1249689738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:01] pikhq: AnMaster: No[…] < 1249689743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not starts with no < 1249689744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact < 1249689755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true, but thought you meant the whole message < 1249689758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "How Not to be Seen" is the name of the sketch. < 1249689764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then pikhq would have broken it with "No." < 1249689766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that has a dot < 1249689781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah yes... < 1249689802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, now I remember... < 1249689815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes that too < 1249689861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but didn't notice the . first time < 1249689913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: have you seen the absurd LoseThos? < 1249689919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.losethos.com/ < 1249689927 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: of course, i actually tried to download and run it awhile ago even < 1249689927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has 680x480 16 colour graphics... yet 12GB of RAM < 1249689928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1249689930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw < 1249689932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't ramble about it < 1249689935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looove rambling about it and him < 1249689937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's so crazy < 1249689944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially his markov chain-esque godspeak < 1249689944 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive even seen him in forum debates < 1249689953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46#comment-819 < 1249689955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." < 1249690016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1249690017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/97qbw/12_men_went_to_the_moon_using_an_understandable/c0br1sq?context=1 < 1249690020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got God for on-line support. (random words or passages on a plug-in hot key.) < 1249690031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is seriously advocating using his babble program to talk to god for help using the OS < 1249690031 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1249690033 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249690051 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im crazy enough to appreciate the genius of that idea, but not crazy enough to think it would work < 1249690081 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however the idea that sampling the 'random numbers supplied by the universe' at a given point is a way of finding hidden mechanism is something that 'most people' seem to actually believe < 1249690101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that meant to mean < 1249690123 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thats what astrology, tarot, i ching, etc, all have as their idea - you get some random numbers, interpret them by rule, the universe hides meaning in them < 1249690132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1249690145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'm fairly sure adherents don't consider them random per se, even with hidden meaning < 1249690148 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont believe in it myself, but if you press people on it, they think there is 'some truth' to those things, that they 'can work sometimes, for some people' < 1249690151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the meaning isn't hidden in them, they ARE the mening < 1249690164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's hopeless talking to such people < 1249690175 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such people fill our world, we dont have much choice but to talk to them < 1249690182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their reality is always full of hopeless contradiction and rampant subjectivism of absolutely everything; solipsist-level < 1249690201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: but that's what the internet is for! :P < 1249690225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a shock everyone would get if it turned out to be true! (not that it is likely to ever turn out that way) < 1249690227 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, subjectivist philosophy is hopefully a bit more respectable than solipsism...but its true that the average person certainly retreats to patently solipsistic style reasoning if you try to engage them on the topic < 1249690259 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a statement like "everyone has their own truth and words dont really mean anything" is where trying to establish a consistent framework of definitions for people's own statements usually gets to, and quickly < 1249690264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1249690268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody would get a shock < 1249690271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one person. < 1249690278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, every scientist < 1249690287 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just asking people to provide their own freely chosen definitions for the terms they use in their statements will make them very angry if you press the point, generally < 1249690287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you understand what solipsism means. < 1249690297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if solipsism is correct, you don't exist. < 1249690300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not conscious. < 1249690300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think you are referring to something else that I did < 1249690303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain made you up. < 1249690307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv too < 1249690308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I meant i ching and such < 1249690310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, everyone but me < 1249690313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tarot < 1249690314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1249690317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1249690319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your referent was very vague and delayed < 1249690323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes it was < 1249690324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain made me up. < 1249690334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a figment of my own imagination. < 1249690358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a figment of my toes < 1249690385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your toes are a figment of your mom. < 1249690390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1249690456 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shhhh, you guys are talking to loud - you guys are gonna wake the colorless green ideas, they are busy sleeping furiously < 1249690465 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/to/too/ < 1249690493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soooooooo < 1249690504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: what vm host do you use for plan 9 btw? < 1249690511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always been slow when I've tried it < 1249690522 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both qemu and vmware server free beer < 1249690534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu was the one that was dog slow < 1249690542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also graphics drivers < 1249690543 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet you were using qemu to do the graphics though < 1249690546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, a vm with driver problems < 1249690547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the irony < 1249690549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: erm yes < 1249690567 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never have qemu do the graphics, i run my VMs as headless CPU servers and always drawterm in or just import from them < 1249690576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't give me rio. < 1249690580 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1249690583 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drawterm is rio < 1249690585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1249690596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my middle mouse button doesn't work! < 1249690602 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does in my drawterm < 1249690608 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you not set the mousetype correctly? < 1249690608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in general :P < 1249690635 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my middle mouse button does scrolling in plan9, as well as the 'button 2 click' functionality that is the original mouse vocabulary < 1249690644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you understand mycroftiv < 1249690647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the middle mouse button on my mouse < 1249690650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work. < 1249690657 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1249690669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes: to talk to mycroftiv, repeat line a lot < 1249690707 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, well, usually when someone says that 'X doesnt work' in a computer context, its at the software level - because most hardware that is broken gets unplugged and different component substituted < 1249690718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true dat < 1249690722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all my other usb mice are unusable though < 1249690729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either they don't have a scrollwheel or they're not usb mice. < 1249690738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from my mighty mouse < 1249690750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in its touch-sensitive glory, the right click has become temperamental < 1249690753 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone is installing ubuntu and says "my monitor isnt working" im gonna assume they need help with an X server problem, not a coupon to wal-mart < 1249690756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after enough time, just stops working < 1249690767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this mouse feels nice. < 1249690843 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, indirectly, i think im gonna find (since someone probably already did it) or write the patch to make the horrible scrollbars in plan9 windows behave conventionally < 1249690858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never seen a scrollbar in plan 9 < 1249690870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe i have < 1249690871 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives ehird new glasses  < 1249690875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1249690877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never use scrollbars though < 1249690878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who does? < 1249690902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm rio's interface could be very interesting with one of those fancy multitouch trackpads on the macbook pros < 1249690913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could basically eliminate the window menu < 1249690915 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah actually rio could very easily be updated to a multitouch moel and be quite nice < 1249690923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249690942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem being the drivers of course < 1249690964 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm that reminds me, when we are talking about fundamental issues... < 1249690983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how do you do drivers?" < 1249690990 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that despite them being open-source, drivers are hard to reuse without extensive modification, is so frustrating < 1249691016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn i thought i was gonna be able to rant about my os < 1249691022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but linux drivers suck. < 1249691085 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that the linux kernel is so competent now at handling hardware but those free software drivers havent resulted in *every* free os being equally capable is just so damn sad, but its a symptom of the deeply ad-hoc nature of how everything is engineered < 1249691095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to hell with kernsl < 1249691097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kernels < 1249691134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO HELL < 1249691164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was indeed an awkward attempt to segue into talking about my OS!) < 1249691241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instead it killed the chat) < 1249691249 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, were waiting for you to start talking < 1249691258 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with your brilliantly prepared segue having established the context < 1249691264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwwwwwwkwaaaaaaaar < 1249691264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1249691407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooooooooooo < 1249691411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What state are we in < 1249691412 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249691427 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249691433 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im in state 'move right on tape until encountering a / ' < 1249691437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we still waiting for me < 1249691511 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is a multitasking preemptive IRC so we arent strictly 'waiting', if some other event occurs we can context switch to a new process < 1249691520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1249691635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still awkward! < 1249691705 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slaps ehird with a large trout until he says whatever the hell he was gonna say < 1249691712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know what context we're in! < 1249691720 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much *more* awkward to get trout-slapped than just say something, isnt it? < 1249691733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends < 1249691807 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine then, have some more < 1249691811 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues to troutslap ehird < 1249691819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are not amused. < 1249691879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hdskjfhadf < 1249691932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: / < 1249691961 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION removes the / from the tape and begins to travel left until encountering a blank space < 1249692012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to talk about my os wasn't i < 1249692018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hands up if you want to know how hardware/drivers work in my os. < 1249692063 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we raise our hands, how can we type on our keyboards to let you know our hands are raised? < 1249692069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic. < 1249692163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell because people aren't typing < 1249692229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: ok you don't have to raise your hand < 1249692231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just type it < 1249692237 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-159.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249692265 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope the user interface for getting information out of your os is easier than the user interface you present in IRC for us getting the information from you < 1249692301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they differ? < 1249692333 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could raise your keyboard with your hand < 1249692342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: should i just start blabbing < 1249692350 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19 minutes and counting currently on latency between ehird signalling the channel he had information to communicate and the delivery of said information < 1249692354 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, we just hit 20 < 1249692359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you < 1249692362 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO TELL US ABOUT THE DRIVER MODEL ALREADY < 1249692368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1249692369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally < 1249692373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1249692379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow this is going to be so anticlimatic < 1249692382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i even bother. i wonder. < 1249692405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mycroftiv tears out my soul.) < 1249692406 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to you, do you enjoy the troutslapping? < 1249692407 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249692412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1249692418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L enjoys troutslapping. < 1249692423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slap him instead. < 1249692435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249692436 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt he would tell me about how the drivers work in your os though. < 1249692449 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i dont see how it would maximize my utility < 1249692468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mo < 1249692470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1249692480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway basically < 1249692488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers are voluntary < 1249692490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1249692500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any object that can get another object with which to communicate directly to the hardware < 1249692506 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my hard drive driver doesnt volunteer, i cant make it work? < 1249692508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can offer its services to any other object allowed to access it < 1249692514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: shush you < 1249692516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically < 1249692522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with these decentralised driver objects < 1249692530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can define eg interfaces < 1249692534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and supply relevant driver objects < 1249692536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like < 1249692544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and using some hardware is just getting the relevant object < 1249692556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a driver is just something that translates sugary messages into communication with the low-level object < 1249692563 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the correct model for your os, indeed < 1249692565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing special, nothing in the "kernel" (there is no kernel) < 1249692678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pleases me when stuff just fits in my model without any new "kernel" code or whatever < 1249692682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reaffirms that it's a good model < 1249692786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: you know, if there wasn't the issue of Other People's Things being unreliable, and slowness of the internet, I'd probably encrypt every object and distribute the storage across every other machine < 1249692797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas those are bohh false < 1249692798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*both < 1249692801 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooooof < 1249692806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every other machine running that OS, that is < 1249692827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but drives disappear, network nodes disappear, and the internet is slow. < 1249692832 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a couple projects in existence that do that - i forget what the main one is called < 1249692837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not surprised < 1249692847 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont think making that your *default* is at all sane - as you correctly have stated < 1249692863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I swear that people have never heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing < 1249692897 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. well, believe me, i have. < 1249692908 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wow is it maddening to design around all those issues... < 1249692943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i think the notion of a computer is flawed. < 1249692945 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first big plan9 project was kind of a distributed DNS-for-9p that ties into the inferno registry, and 99.9% of my development time on it was working out how to handle every possible failure mode < 1249692971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find a piece of vm software well-suited to playing with plan9 < 1249692980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vmware fusion/parallels aren't suitable, they're way too windows-centric... < 1249692994 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you using os x as host os? < 1249692998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249692999 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure what the best solution is for that < 1249693004 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know about 9vx? < 1249693007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well qemu and stuff work but < 1249693012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah, it's not reaaaaaaal plan 9 :P < 1249693021 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe there is a pretty decent os x version of 9vx - and yes it is, especially if you use a full tree < 1249693033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but but. < 1249693035 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249693038 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get the regular plan9 .iso and copy it over to your filesystem and run 9vx from it < 1249693047 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 9vx binary distribution is sadly crap, i agree < 1249693053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but but but but but but but < 1249693057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't exactly the same! < 1249693061 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, thats true < 1249693064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses the host fs doesn't i < 1249693065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1249693072 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, although thats kind of an advantage really < 1249693075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooooooooooo < 1249693079 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives you natural integration between the systems < 1249693084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is my escape from resource forks :-P < 1249693108 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, resource forks still exist in the mac os? are you joking? or am i confused? < 1249693125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do indeed < 1249693132 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, i thought os x got rid of those... < 1249693148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's somewhat NeXTish as well. < 1249693151 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can os x be a UNIX then? sorry, i should know this, i dont keep up on os x like i should < 1249693156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1249693158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me explain < 1249693170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, we use = and + to mean "bastard of x, y and z" < 1249693184 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironically, i have a white plastic imac but i run gnu/linux on it, havent booted it to os x in forever and i never really learned what was up with os x before turning it into primarily leenooks box < 1249693233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mac OS X = Darwin (derivative of XNU) + NEXTSTEP (XNU (BSD + Mach) + own stuff) + FreeBSD + Mac OS + own stuff < 1249693237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cower in fear! < 1249693247 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249693252 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure i know that, conceptually - i know the hsitory, carbon, cocoa, blah blah, mach etc < 1249693255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the Mac OS part is basically the fs < 1249693260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses the mac os fs with changes to make it unix-compatible < 1249693263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus resource forks are retained < 1249693266 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc < 1249693274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Throw in some GNU for good measure. < 1249693320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not really < 1249693330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Fine, mostly just the GNU C compiler. < 1249693333 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt BASH the shell though? < 1249693335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is almost everywhere. < 1249693339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249693339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: by default, yes < 1249693342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh used to be < 1249693344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Which is almost everywhere. < 1249693349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No, csh. < 1249693350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: they're working on replacing gcc with llvm/clang < 1249693351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to gpl 3 < 1249693352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no < 1249693354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be zsh < 1249693359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know this because i have used os x 10.2 < 1249693360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. That was csh. < 1249693364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249693365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not < 1249693368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That shit was C shell. < 1249693370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be tcsh < 1249693372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it was zsh < 1249693374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it was bash < 1249693394 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249693532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: is there a way to get 9vx to use a big file as a block device? < 1249693535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then I'll consider using it < 1249693555 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure, of course < 1249693579 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can either just run fossil/venti (if thats the idea) from flat files, or you could use devfs to make virtual devices from them < 1249693587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I wanted to use fossil < 1249693600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I just want a plan 9 system whose kernel doesn't get emulated.userspace < 1249693604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/userspace$// < 1249693616 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make a fossil, problem is that without patching that fossil wont be your *boot* fossil which i gather is also what you want? < 1249693647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes. < 1249693662 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, thats possible, but it starts to get into the realm of patching-and-hacking < 1249693672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just use a fast vm + drawterm i guess < 1249693690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1249693696 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1249693702 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249693715 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you are using os x, i unfortunately cant really push my own toolchain on you, since i distribute it in linux-centric form < 1249693755 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise id be saying you should download my gridtools stuff since its all set up as a true modular multinode plan9 system already < 1249693861 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about plan9 thats frustrating is that the base bell labs .iso distribution is so far removed from a fully configured setup that most people never get to the point of experiencing the whole purpose of the os, since there is a ton of not-very-graceful admin stuff required to make the 'magic' happen < 1249694005 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thats why your ideas i think are fundamentally sound - to express things crudely, you want to 'cut out the middleman' of all the annoying implementation/administrative details of running a computer, by making the upper and lower layers more conceptually unified. < 1249694033 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, as a basic concept that isnt new and in some ways that is what everyone (and every failed and awkward system) was trying to achieve :D < 1249694088 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not criticism, just an acknowledgment of the difficulties of the task and a recognition that smart people have been trying to make sane and sensible systems for a long time < 1249694240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc <-- doesn't load Sgeo < 1249694242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1249694355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1249694359 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1249694447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i do want to cut out the middleman, I think yours is incidental though < 1249694451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main driver is: < 1249694456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well two things < 1249694466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one, we have so much useless work < 1249694467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1249694471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we separate tasks too much < 1249694476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we separate application from application < 1249694477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITS < 1249694480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we separate objects from disk < 1249694482 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, the page apparently is a 302 status code, which goes to an HTML page that uses a meta tag to go to the proper place < 1249694487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, check the source? < 1249694489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: and the second, < 1249694497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have too much duplication < 1249694498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many VMs < 1249694501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many garbage collectors < 1249694504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, can't. get a "connection reset during loading" message < 1249694504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many address books < 1249694509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many everythings < 1249694516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so don't even get past HTTP headers I guess < 1249694521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does http://www.farmingdale.edu/campuspages/campusaffiliates/lieoc/index.html work? < 1249694521 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all of those things you are saying sound to me like many of them fit conceptually into the broad idea of 'cut out the middleman' < 1249694523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a result of fixing those two everything fits together < 1249694525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah < 1249694527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do < 1249694535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, nop < 1249694538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, link to your toolchain thing anyway? < 1249694541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, or rather, a bit < 1249694564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I get headers but no document < 1249694574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1249694575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :200 that is < 1249694587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, note: cookies and javascript are *off* < 1249694589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: even if i can't use it i'm interested < 1249694595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, that may well be it < 1249694598 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 9gridchan.org is my website with tons of plan9 related stuff, a full explanation and context is maybe offtopic for this channel but feel free to ask whatever < 1249694606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, not going to turn them on < 1249694616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9gridchan, is that like a 4chan derivative on a grid? < 1249694621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249694626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this #s < 1249694627 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: uh, not really, but sort of, yeah < 1249694652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how on earth is it sort of :P < 1249694667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 < 1249694671 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its a grid that anyone can connect to so that is chan-like < 1249694689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was referring more to things like 4chan → 7chan and the like < 1249694692 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the chan imageboards are some of the better stuff on the net conceptually, free speech, simple interface, no barrier to entry, etc < 1249694694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distributed pointlessness! < 1249694703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah i know all the arguments in favour of them < 1249694741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, you think /b/ is "[one] of the better stuff on the net conceptually"? < 1249694745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1249694749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ad hominem, strawman < 1249694753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lose < 1249694755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah I know what you mean) < 1249694757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1249694759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more strawman than ad hominem) < 1249694762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is a joke :P < 1249694767 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, if you read my actual text above, that isnt what i said, so i think the statement i made was pretty clear < 1249694773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only flaw with your jokes AnMaster < 1249694779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that none of them are ever funny or carry any hint of being jokes. < 1249694782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is that I forget ~ < 1249694829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 <-- and? < 1249694859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you look at it? .style7 ? < 1249694883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, not good names. and? < 1249694899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was facepalming at the bad names < 1249694901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, on your website... what is bind -a '#¤' /dev < 1249694907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like encoding error to me < 1249694921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using firefox < 1249694947 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, that does indeed look like an error, lets check the original ns to see what it should be < 1249694959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, and what does the #b and such mean? < 1249694977 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are how plan9 talks about binding device drivers into the namespace, pretty much < 1249694984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1249694997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: isn't /srv mostly used? < 1249694999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's what i saw < 1249695001 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok, yup, thats a weird unicode symbol that clearly has a different visual appearance < 1249695022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, make web server send correct encoding :) < 1249695026 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well /srv is where the user level file servers usually post themselves for stuff to mount, but the kernel level drivers work a bit differently i would say < 1249695047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so this drawterm stuff, what do i have to do to get it working? < 1249695066 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: from what base are you starting? default bell labs .iso installed into a vm, or ? < 1249695085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I have the iso and nothing else < 1249695097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the less friction this takes to get working the better < 1249695111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this is plan9... what do you think < 1249695120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: okay, fuck off, seriously < 1249695130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the last hours all you've done is dis plan 9 and other crap < 1249695131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: it isn't smoothly polished ubuntu. < 1249695137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I like plan9 as I said < 1249695140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read above < 1249695143 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, how much plan9 related spam tech/support do you want in this channel? < 1249695149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you like it in the most vaguest, tenuous sense possible < 1249695153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just enough so you can hate on it all the time < 1249695159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i never said i wanted ubuntu; strawman fallacy < 1249695165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just find it amusing that you think it will work out of box more or less < 1249695168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said i wanted the least frictionful way possible < 1249695170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1249695175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've used plan 9. it worked out of the box < 1249695178 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did i ever say that? < 1249695179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249695184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never said i wanted it working out of the box < 1249695185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, close < 1249695188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1249695189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249695192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not close at all < 1249695194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are truly excelling putting words in my mouth < 1249695198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new heights of strawman < 1249695233 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ironically, i actually provide preconfigured preinstalled plan9 systems that instantiate a full 4 functional node grid on your desktop out of the box, but i only provide that for linux ;) < 1249695245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: impossible, that doesn't fit his biases < 1249695260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, awesome and now I really need to sleep *turns off monitor* < 1249695298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferno has always confused me < 1249695302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want an OS that can only run virtualised? < 1249695320 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually inferno can also run natively, but that isnt very common except on small devices < 1249695326 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like inferno on the nintendo ds < 1249695328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well w/e < 1249695353 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, you dont like sqweak right? well its not too different from that - or from java in a different way, i mean java is real world popular. < 1249695367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1249695370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java just has a vm underneath < 1249695374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's basically an implementation detail < 1249695376 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but besides, whats an os, whats software? i think its a false dichotomy < 1249695386 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, think of inferno as the vm implementation for the limbo language < 1249695389 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you ever looked at limbo? < 1249695390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely < 1249695395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not making an os, i'm making a system < 1249695405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it boots up and comes with a set of base objects "absolutely free" < 1249695420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i've seen limbo. < 1249695422 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats good, im tired of paying $5 per boot < 1249695426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a pretty boring lang tbh < 1249695463 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent learned it, but a lot of people like it for its concurrency/message passing features i guess - and by 'a lot of people' i mean 'a handful of people with plan9/inferno interests' < 1249695527 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limbo is actually maybe the most 'on topic' thing from the plan9 universe for this channel - well, that and alef of course < 1249695535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249695547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: how smoothly does plan9 run with qemu/drawterm? < 1249695556 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nicely in my experience, even on moderate hardware < 1249695579 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. < 1249695579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu is basically the slowest emulator apart from bochs < 1249695579 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much better than with qemu providing the graphics < 1249695579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't using the kqemu thing are you? < 1249695579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't < 1249695579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's linux only < 1249695597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: make a cellular automata whose atoms are cellular automata < 1249695601 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use kqemu on some boxes but not all, and even without it, i get performance that i find acceptable < 1249695605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use a CA to generate CAs < 1249695615 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for all i know qemu on os x is even slower than slow, i dunno < 1249695615 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brain explodes* < 1249695615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: ok. so how easy is drawterm to set up? < 1249695634 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, let me give you the canonical 'how to' link for how to do it from the default install from the .iso, one second < 1249695664 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Configuring_a_standalone_CPU_server/index.html < 1249695683 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is Ye Olde Testamente of how to take your default install and make it a standalone cpu auth server you can drawterm into < 1249695683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how they call it a wiki, it's been read only for like 8945349534 years < 1249695696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway looks irritatingly complicated. < 1249695697 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not read only as a matter of fact < 1249695706 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that is exactly why i made the tools i did, because its ridiculous < 1249695707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i mounted it and couldn't save. < 1249695717 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? hmm... < 1249695722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was a few months ago < 1249695762 0 :Zonbi!n=kidz@75-169-253-196.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249695775 0 :Zonbi!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249695789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impatient man < 1249695867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so, any particular recommendation or should i just set up qemu < 1249695905 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, im hesitant to make any os x recommendations, honestly - i get the sense from reading 9fans that os x is a bit different in what the optimal strategies are < 1249695918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an odd OS < 1249695945 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive found that qemu seems to be most generally reliable plan9 virtualization platform for the oses ive worked with it in, which is various gnu/linux distros, windows xp and vista, and freebsd < 1249695979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big do you recommend i make the disk? < 1249695984 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are going to use qemu, you could try the standalone version of the preinstalled image i distribute btw < 1249695993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that get me over the stock? < 1249696003 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drawterm out of the box, additional configuration work done < 1249696009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds nice < 1249696014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything to emulate a middle mouse button? :P < 1249696024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway link me up < 1249696034 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, doesnt plan9 have something to do that anyway? some key combo or something?i should know this < 1249696042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1249696043 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz < 1249696049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't qcow compressed? < 1249696062 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a .tgz of a single file which is a qcow2 preinstalled hdd image < 1249696076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tar of a single file? < 1249696077 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the meaning of that question "why bother to .tgz it?" < 1249696077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you nuts < 1249696089 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, im not nuts at all! :) want the method for the madness? < 1249696093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no, it's just "isn't qcow = compressed = slow?" < 1249696096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure i guess < 1249696112 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the way qemu handles qcow2 is pretty efficient < 1249696114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qcow is copy on write, not compressed. < 1249696126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1249696131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a few other silly things to maximise sparseness. < 1249696132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.app tells me it's compressed < 1249696132 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, its very simply this - most people want/need to preserve the archival initial copy of the VM < 1249696134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it sucks :P < 1249696153 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you provide a .tgz, the standard command line tar xzf foo.tgz leaves the original .tgz behind unchanged < 1249696170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: don't plan 9 guys oppose hacks < 1249696188 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is very convenient and useful, in comparison to a .gz where the ungzip will annihilate the original, and then youll fuck up your vm since you dont understand plan9 and have to redownload... < 1249696191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: btw does this image use venti < 1249696198 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, not in that standalone version < 1249696202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god < 1249696203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1249696280 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file is badly named, its called 'ventigridserver' because its actually the version of the image that can be used to *host* a venti for other nodes to use < 1249696291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should it be .qcow2.img or just .qcow2 < 1249696292 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesnt do that by default, or use venti itself as its backing store < 1249696304 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc stuff is .qcow2.img < 1249696351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much ram should i allocate? I have 2.5gb < 1249696362 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for drawterm you also need to deal with the port redirections needed to access the vm, im not sure of the details of that in os x - 256mb for the vm is plenty of ram, plenty < 1249696373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, do I really need to redirect ports for localhost? < 1249696386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, will anything break if I boot this with graphics? < 1249696398 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vm has to be able to listen on those ports even for localhost - and no, you can boot the image fine as standard graphical vm < 1249696416 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it includes the standard initial terminal/glenda setup from bell labs as an option < 1249696428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no gui? < 1249696436 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in plan9 terminal is GUI < 1249696438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rio started automatically for me when using the iso < 1249696439 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :difference of vocabulary < 1249696447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: acme won't run under the console < 1249696453 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying its GUI( < 1249696454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249696455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aieee < 1249696457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it chose for me < 1249696468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i want glenda or gridna? < 1249696475 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either < 1249696481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1249696488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eenie meenie miney mo < 1249696493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glenda < 1249696504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: btw, what's the done plan9 thing for users? < 1249696505 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the base standard setup < 1249696510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whee, alggy indowing system < 1249696514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*laggy windowing < 1249696515 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1249696520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, < 1249696532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when using plan 9 it was a pain to get a user running with the ability to administrate < 1249696550 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not, i can tell you how < 1249696556 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bootes is set up on that image though as the admin/root < 1249696565 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add your own user to admin stuff easy though < 1249696589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift+right = middle < 1249696619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, if I can get a user set up here and then drawterm that'd be ideal < 1249696624 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, are we dragging #esoteric too far offtopic? if so i have a channel for my various plan9 projects on here called #plan9chan < 1249696651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude, we haven't been on topic for years < 1249696665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly this diversion is rather *extended*, but < 1249696667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, we're more often off topic than on. < 1249696674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude < 1249696680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Actually, we've been on topic on occasion. < 1249696689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But. That's a rare occasion. < 1249696693 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of being off topic, does anyone here do K? < 1249696698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOA < 1249696701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an idler just spoke < 1249696704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do we do whatdowedo < 1249696710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: oklopol does J < 1249696712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oleg? < 1249696714 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that should have happened someday < 1249696715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249696716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that oleg < 1249696727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Not a demigod, then. < 1249696730 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to spend a few minutes on phone, brb < 1249696734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: more than one person is named Oleg < 1249696739 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'm in almost no way mr. Kiselev < 1249696740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: your new name is "inferior oleg" < 1249696783 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, if I've correctly identified the oleg you're talking about, I doubt he's likely to be found on irc < 1249696793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okmij.org < 1249696797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah he doesn't irc. < 1249696838 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah! that's what makes me the /other/ one, right? < 1249696846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the inferior one < 1249696852 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn. < 1249696859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's okay inferior oleg < 1249696862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just inferior. < 1249696878 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, I'm not arguing. < 1249696893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good. < 1249696900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguing breeds rebellion. < 1249696962 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, I only do saner stuff with ocaml... actually running ocamlrun on bare hardware was about as far as I got... *bursts in tears* < 1249696972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you did that? awesome. < 1249697026 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, back to k... there are many j programmers, but I just need some place to ask stupid k questions. < 1249697070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really get why someone would use k over j < 1249697113 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, it used(s) das u-boot for the dirty init work, and worked more or less when run in the orienting the board in the right direction. < 1249697128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orienting the ... board? < 1249697139 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was about ocamlrun) < 1249697162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i repeat my question < 1249697197 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it was an arm9 thing with fpga, but I never got to actually use it, though the whole project was about playing with metaocaml < 1249697271 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re k over j, why someone would use airbuses over sea liners? < 1249697309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you should be using a interstellar spaceship instead. < 1249697315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: begging the question < 1249697349 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j is an executable mathematical notation that is particularly efficient in number theory applications, k is just a cool general-purpose functional language < 1249697361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ermmmmmm < 1249697364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the languages are hugely similar < 1249697368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i've seen < 1249697465 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have very limited knowledge of j, but from what I know its set of primitives is much larger, the syntax is both more powerful and more complicated < 1249697563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j has more primitives?! < 1249697566 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how many people use j as a general-purpose language, as they use the usual ocaml, haskell or c < 1249697567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its vocab fits on one page of 3 cols < 1249697583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, C++: [](){}(); < 1249697590 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc yes < 1249697606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat < 1249697607 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg things like +:, >: etc.? < 1249697615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: all of it < 1249697626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That's a noöp. < 1249697632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh C++ not C < 1249697640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1249697691 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, K doesn't have them, it has about 50 primitives < 1249697710 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm seems to list slightly more. < 1249697748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1249697755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure k has more actual functions than 50 < 1249697758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just maybe in libraries < 1249697759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. < 1249697767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the typical k program isn't just going to be compositions of 50 funcs < 1249697790 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, I'm not counting things like trigonometric functions (yes, K has no o.!) < 1249697853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k seems very much more secret and corporate < 1249697875 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed it is < 1249697885 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not counting the fact that it is no longer marketed < 1249697897 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uggggg 20 minutes of trying to explain the basics of networking to a teenage kid trying to freeload off his neighbor's wireless with a 10 year old laptop < 1249697920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: why bother? < 1249697935 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i was trying to avoid it, its my gf's kid < 1249697954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1249697957 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, K has no trains! < 1249697959 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no forks. < 1249697967 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that i dont even use windows enough to know how to access the networking control panel doesnt help, either < 1249697967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: shit sux < 1249697967 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249697977 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just C with lisp semantics and apl syntax... < 1249697996 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-124-1.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249698048 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't give an objective comparison as I've never written anything big enough in J < 1249698075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j doesn't do big programs < 1249698101 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249698150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freetexthost.com/rvsaogqp2y ← woah man. < 1249698155 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking that into account when using the term 'big'. I think my largest ever J program was 3 lines. < 1249698200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: heh :) < 1249698259 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was that big because I never quite got how to do simple file i/o in J the right way. < 1249698450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: 'j for c programmers' might help and is included in the docs < 1249698457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has file io in the first example < 1249698623 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it didn't help me, but maybe I was just too sleepy when I was reading jfc < 1249698644 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I needed was basically read some numbers from a text file, output some numbers < 1249698653 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. acm icpc-style i/o < 1249698657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first example has that < 1249698785 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, honestly, I don't remeber what my problem was, maybe it was about parsing the string for integers, but I remeber seeing that example (is http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/continuing_to_write_in_j.htm#_Toc191734364 what you're talking about?). < 1249698829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nuh uh < 1249698846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/a_first_look_at_j_programs.htm < 1249698972 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems the magic I haven't had mastered at that time was a proper ReadFile ;-) < 1249699032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: eh? < 1249699127 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall some problems with CRLF confusing J or something... meh, I can't find my code. < 1249699146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you using crlf :P < 1249699180 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has CRLF on highlight. < 1249699183 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's using CRLF? < 1249699183 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL < 1249699192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249699196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it on highlight? < 1249699207 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that I can harass people who use CRLF < 1249699224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249699224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR+LF < 1249699225 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We must rid ourselves of this vile plague. < 1249699226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR, LF < 1249699229 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc CRLF in J is a list of CR and LF < 1249699229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 10 < 1249699236 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was kidding, I don't actually have CRLF on highlight :P < 1249699240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: lawl < 1249699246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about classic mac os and its CR < 1249699256 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me go ":/" < 1249699301 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In quotes, no less. < 1249699301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh in 1983 it wouldn't have been as crazy < 1249699380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i had something queued up to say but i forgot. < 1249699405 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh? < 1249699408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249699410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exciting eh < 1249699420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: incidentally does plan 9 have any text antialiasing mechanisms? < 1249699431 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you can download some different subpixel hinted fonts if you want < 1249699440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's... encoded in the font? < 1249699442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1249699492 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i honestly dont know the details, but i know if you want smoothed fonts, theres some stuff you can download - im oblivious to fonts having grown up on 40 column all caps displays and thinking that all modern displays post 2000 look fine < 1249699526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whacks mycroftiv with the typography/display nerd bat < 1249699531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bat that you whack people with. < 1249699583 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do know that the plan9 fonts that many disdain are in fact also NONFREE for some bizarre reason and that one traditional annoyance of various things is that the fonts arent freely redistributable separate from plan 9 < 1249699645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Learn typography! < 1249699656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Shut up, X11 user. < 1249699661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also. What the crap? Bitmap fonts? < 1249699663 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i make plenty of typos! < 1249699668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I at least freely admit it's shitty. < 1249699668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really loved typography, you'd sacrifice every other value for it. < 1249699675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, freetype, not X11. < 1249699708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Idea: Display TeX. < 1249699709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249699717 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: bitmap fonts don't need any antialiasing.. just get a higher resolution display. :-) < 1249699734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: TeX's actual font rendering isn't that good < 1249699741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: (a) that makes them incy wincy < 1249699751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) i'd spend $$$ for a 600dpi display, hells yeah < 1249699762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, but that's the only thing it doesn't do all that well. < 1249699768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: unicode < 1249699782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, implementing smart quotes by making `` and '' freakin' ligatures < 1249699784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Straight TeX doesn't do that. < 1249699791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs XeTeX. < 1249699792 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard TeX doesn't really make coffee as well. < 1249699798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olegfink: tru dat < 1249699865 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, leaving for the weekend. thanks for the time. < 1249699873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ĝis. < 1249699880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye olegfink < 1249700428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1249700432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249701256 0 :amca!n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249702924 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@121-73-162-77.dsl.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249703308 0 :alexlyoko94!n=alexlyok@64.111.236.97 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249703322 0 :alexlyoko94!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249704780 0 :xim_!n=barrett@97.94.209.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249704818 0 :xim_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249704899 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!n=Sgeo[Cir@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249705012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo_ < 1249705017 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1249705033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo[Circe] < 1249705037 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1249707067 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249707067 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello oerjan, and welcome to #esoteric < 1249707118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello botty one < 1249707419 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249707419 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-124-1.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249707419 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello bsmntbombdood, and welcome to #esoteric < 1249707425 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barf < 1249707786 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a client with a very easy scripting API < 1249707802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for that YOU DIE. < 1249707808 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the least powerful one ever conceived, but still < 1249707813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1249707839 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 < 1249708146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..no comments? < 1249708168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it Turing-complete? < 1249708180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..? < 1249708187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that apply to an API? < 1249708198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it a valid question at all times. < 1249708205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL TIMES. < 1249708269 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night all < 1249708293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good turing-complete night < 1249708529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More off-topicness: I have been reading the comic "Sandman". < 1249708530 0 :Sgeo[Circe]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Circe: http://circe.nick125.com/" < 1249708536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis truly grand. < 1249708780 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Im curious: are you turing complete? < 1249708818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a valid question < 1249708855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "Is it" is essential. "are you" does not work. < 1249708927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you for that, oerjan. < 1249709077 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, you right. < 1249709091 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is it turing complete? < 1249709102 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "it" is pikhq < 1249709154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in the same way as 1 is even, where 1 = 2 < 1249709183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: For certain values of Turing. < 1249709195 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249709445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later, in a non-computable way" < 1249709688 0 :nescience!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249709688 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249709688 0 :Robdgreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249709688 0 :Dewio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249709689 0 :Warrigal_!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1249709690 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1249709692 0 :Dewi!n=dewi@203-214-111-155.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249709699 0 :nescience!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249709841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249714209 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249714213 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249714818 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it" < 1249718399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1249718400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1249720384 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1249720790 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Farewell" < 1249722066 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249722625 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-8-203.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249722801 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1249722815 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-8-203.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249722926 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1249726308 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249727170 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-095-208-142-060.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249727550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. <-- ECAs? size-5 of what? < 1249727555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just woke up btw < 1249728834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249728929 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249729066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECA ("elementary cellular automaton") is at least what Wolfram calls the "rule N" things. Which have a size-3 neighborhood, but you could easily imagine adding the next two neighbors too. < 1249730855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1249730909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the number of possible rules limited btw? < 1249730924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the same size of neighborhood I mean < 1249731638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, of course. There are only 256 of the elementary ones, for one thing. < 1249731898 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249732116 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249733967 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249736641 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If you disregard trivial permutations of other rules, there are only 64 ECAs. < 1249737500 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249737528 0 :morenel!n=artic@unaffiliated/romani JOIN :#esoteric < 1249737529 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1249737533 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? < 1249737538 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frightens the shit out of me < 1249737547 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python? < 1249737581 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not brainfuck? < 1249737586 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249737587 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes pyton < 1249738443 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python: widely considered the most terrifying language < 1249738508 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it's pretty swell < 1249738526 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you don't stop to think < 1249738531 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the terrible secret of whitespace < 1249738535 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is hiding in it < 1249738589 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am here to protect you from the terrible secret of whitespace < 1249738597 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whitespace has a terrible power < 1249738623 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1249739136 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249739768 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249740041 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249740077 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1249740083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:03:59 The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 < 1249740083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:09:06 ..no comments? < 1249740083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody carse < 1249740084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cares < 1249740085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa morenel < 1249740088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't seen you here before etc < 1249740094 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok hi < 1249740105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my logreading has not yet seen you < 1249740113 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1249740116 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1249740118 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im new then? < 1249740189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gathered :P < 1249740199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python frightens you? well me too but for less trivial reasons < 1249740204 0 :jix!n=jix@188-193-95-175-dynip.superkabel.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249740212 0 :morenel!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249740472 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249740473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ophidiophobia? < 1249740473 0 :MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249740535 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249740657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: what < 1249740660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wat < 1249740796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ꊀ < 1249741339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: a U man with wavy arms and a penis? < 1249741357 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249741408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it zoomed in < 1249741613 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249741737 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1249743249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well? < 1249743421 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249743901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14:13] lament: ꊀ < 1249743905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is the letter called wat or something < 1249743943 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249743953 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:13? < 1249743964 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you live in the past, man < 1249743983 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'YI SYLLABLE WAT' (U+A280) < 1249743991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i know < 1249743993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pasty paste < 1249743995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with pasta < 1249743996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :past < 1249745045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Best source code ever... [ASCIIPIC?] http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c < 1249745048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW YOU CAN ADD WHITESPACE < 1249745051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::OOOOO < 1249745153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slow-ass US mirrors... http://www.de.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c < 1249745256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares, it's a boring entry < 1249745281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's cute but simple ASCII art < 1249745345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but shit like that can be automated for chrissake < 1249745386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "simple" < 1249745397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not dissing it < 1249745402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's at the top of proggit < 1249745422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1249745513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sux :P < 1249745546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been worse stuff at the top of proggit < 1249745639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1249746994 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249747839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: There's much better IOCCC entries. < 1249747843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1249747851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw let's start using there're < 1249747852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not the bit of code that calculates Pi based on its own area? < 1249747854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of there's → there are < 1249747889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the bootstrapping subset-of-C compiler? < 1249748703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no fabrice bellard allowed < 1249748704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1249748706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s just too clever < 1249748728 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're a problem with that idea < 1249748732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1249748760 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't swear. < 1249748782 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249748797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: umm care to clarify are you just on crack < 1249748800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*or are < 1249748867 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-150-131.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249748947 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249749375 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249749516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? < 1249749522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell too < 1249749533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by "flow" you mean "structure" < 1249749561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically < 1249749567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every good language there is! < 1249749575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249749577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Not quite. < 1249749583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... There exists F#. < 1249749611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now accuses pikhq of being John D. Harrop < 1249749656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very probable, i know, he wouldn't be able to mention F# that rarely in this channel < 1249749671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1249749682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he wouldn't be derogatory concerning the language. < 1249749692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that was derogatory? < 1249749694 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Whitespace count? < 1249749719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Every good language there is!" "Not quite. There exists F#." < 1249749733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm at least under the impression that F# has indentation-significant syntax. < 1249749736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok so F# _is_ indentation sensitive, but not good? i don't know it, so i interpreted it the other possible way < 1249749771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: probably < 1249749774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's a .Net "functional" programming language. < 1249749783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh, pikhq. pikhq. < 1249749790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F# = OCaml for .NET. < 1249749798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't indentation-significant. < 1249749805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i didn't mean "don't know" in the never heard about it sense. i just haven't seen the syntax. < 1249749807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Okay, then. < 1249749807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Harrop is a retard, but stop the FUD :P < 1249749822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F# is still an awful language, though. < 1249749832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, now? < 1249749839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just OCaml with access to .NET stuff. < 1249749849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing spectacular, but I find it hard to hate. < 1249749853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You got .Net in my functional language!" "You got your functional language in my .Net!" "YAY!" < 1249749864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I find the concept distasteful. ;) < 1249749864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a chimera, i guess. since ocaml already sort of is. < 1249749873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OCaml is object-oriented already. < 1249749873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it adds .NET to that < 1249749879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Binding .NET does not muddy the language at all. < 1249749900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: My complaints are two-fold: OCaml, and .NET. < 1249749906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i doubt the type systems are compatible. < 1249749911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just hate every language that isn't Haskell. < 1249749921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not *every* language! < 1249749931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... There's something to be said for the untyped lambda calculus. < 1249749934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever actually used OCaml < 1249749935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249749936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate every language that is or isn't Haskell < 1249749945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just being silly on IRC. < 1249749962 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall reading that F# does type inference somewhat unintuitively for classes < 1249750003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since hindley-milner does not go well with subtyping) < 1249750023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subtyping is nice. < 1249750033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want subtyping a lot when Haskelling. < 1249750357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lambert is being very sensible today < 1249751655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249752457 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249752945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249753024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooooooooo < 1249753030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1249753180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wo < 1249753180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w < 1249753181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (S)::^(~:(o)~^~:^):^ < 1249753181 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output! < 1249753184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i dreamed something < 1249753188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then forgot it was a dream later < 1249753188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249753359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i do that a lot < 1249753490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you are already forgetting that this is a dream < 1249753498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, trippy < 1249754382 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249754899 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249754960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249754965 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1249754982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now on ext4. < 1249755887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am an atheist who wants to become religious again. Ask me anything." // grr @ people who don't make a distinction between dogmatic atheism and rationalism < 1249755888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahem < 1249755889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1249755890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: awesome < 1249755899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're running ext3 except with extents! < 1249755905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1249755911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're running ext2 except with journaling and extents < 1249755959 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: And btrees. < 1249755966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tru dat < 1249757124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1249758002 0 :JoelyWoely!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249758037 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249758044 0 :JoelyWoely!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CESSMASTER < 1249758389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i love you. < 1249758403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why thank you augur < 1249758444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thae topic is brilliant < 1249758517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, i wrote that in february i think :P < 1249758557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite being nearly unable to type due to the biting cold < 1249758567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249758579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angkor < 1249758598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oejan: you stole that from me :| < 1249758608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stole what? < 1249758615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying angkor in response to wat < 1249758632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angkor in response to wat < 1249758633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUE ME < 1249758634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty obvious < 1249758640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats what i thought < 1249758643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but noone fucking gets it < 1249758647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually guessed oerjan would do it this time :) < 1249758651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i had to google it first time. < 1249758658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i say thom < 1249758673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because angkor thom is both more obscure and more interestng than angkor wat < 1249758690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that just confuses people. :D < 1249758708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMETIMES i say "soup" and people are like "huh?" < 1249758713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i clarify with "wat soup" < 1249758717 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're still confused < 1249758725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: the OS X system sound "Sosumi" (so sue me) was a reference to Apple Corps v. Apple Computer; it's a xylophone, so technically that counts as distributing music (tenuously) < 1249758735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Proof from Infallopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi) < 1249758739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i explain that its a kind of soup form around angkor wat in cambodia, used to greet people < 1249758762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, really? < 1249758779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phallopedia < 1249758815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no such thing, says google < 1249758824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing as what < 1249758833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phallopedia < 1249758854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249758855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Infallopedia < 1249758858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phallopedia < 1249758861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's make Phalluspedia < 1249758875 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1249758875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an encyclopedia about cocks < 1249758875 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phallus < 1249758875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and roosters < 1249758881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats ehird for mangling greek morphology < 1249758887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1249758895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgot the swatter -----### < 1249758896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* augur's phallus swats oerjan for etc < 1249758899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249758901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zen swatter < 1249758921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1249758938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zwatter < 1249758947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .... I'm so edgy because I use the wrong number of dots < 1249758983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zwitter < 1249759024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zwikipedia < 1249759034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zwicky < 1249759062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s < 1249759066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ense/to cut off a poem on the brink. < 1249759072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ WORST POEM EVER < 1249759103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also weird rhyming scheme; ABAsortofBBA < 1249759132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude sense/to cut off a poem on the brink." < 1249759133 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :176 < 1249759150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s" < 1249759151 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :140 < 1249759165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitch. That was the joke. < 1249759165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was gonna check that < 1249759169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249759173 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Staples-Center/photo//090807/482/014ee302e9be4f0a89a4eeca91a2e595//s:/ap/20090808/ap_en_ot/us_michael_jackson_insurance;_ylt=AgTPYYGRfmU9P0ms7L75FsZY24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dmZwOWFyBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDaW50aGlzaGFuZG91 << look at me i'm michael jackson and i rehearse in CG environments that are photoshopped poorly! < 1249759223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that his lips < 1249759310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some day photoshopping will get so good that no one manages to detect it, at least officially. unofficially mental hospitals start filling up with CG experts who claim they can detect photoshopping artifacts in reality. < 1249759323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249759393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan have i told you my reasoning for why the world might be a simulation? x3 < 1249759439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly not < 1249759460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL < 1249759497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succinct reasoning. < 1249759508 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long story short, 3, maybe 4 of the features of the universe's fundamental design are the sort of thing you'd add to a large scale universe simulation to make it easier to computer < 1249759510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compute* < 1249759574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1249759576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stfu < 1249759578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249759581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the simulation argument is wrong. < 1249759593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably is, but even so its fun < 1249759651 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1249759660 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are these three maybe four features < 1249759682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur being able to spout bullshit < 1249759686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people taking the simulation argument seriously < 1249759692 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a really good feature < 1249759692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :support the factory union < 1249759692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus distracting them from actually thinking and looking < 1249759701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would cause them to find all the flaws in the approximations < 1249759705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are two. < 1249759731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location < 1249759762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur that adds up to five < 1249759764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you count < 1249759768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just had to add one or two more. < 1249759773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1249759781 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think he's saying I'm the fourth fundamental feature of the universe < 1249759787 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he used a colon instead of a comma < 1249759788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1249759791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249759808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another argument against the simulation argument: why the heck would you want to simulate this universe? < 1249759817 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "simulating what?" < 1249759819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealth terrorists from uranus < 1249759823 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer appears to be < 1249759826 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a newtonian universe < 1249759829 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is adorable < 1249759831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they haven't intervened, they've just run one presumably not entirely unlike their own (they couldn't imagine simulating something too different from their universe; almost certainly) < 1249759833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1249759835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck is the point < 1249759836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: what do you mean? < 1249759841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : those are two. < 1249759841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location < 1249759850 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relativity demolished the first two, quantum the second < 1249759858 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1249759860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THAT LEAVES THE THIRD < 1249759861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249759861 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you remove these "easier to compute" features < 1249759865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean "demolished"? < 1249759876 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are left with a 19th century cosmos < 1249759890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont follow what you're saying, pthing < 1249759894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this universe would be way way way easier to simulate if we did one thing < 1249759895 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the more-real-than-real universe that the real universe is just a computational simulation of < 1249759897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELIMINATE QUANTUM MECAHNICS < 1249759899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mechanics < 1249759913 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no apparently it is a simplification? < 1249759918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i dont think it would < 1249759921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classical mechanics gets like 99.999999999% of shit right, and fuck the rest < 1249759932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you'd have to actually calculate all particle motion and so forth < 1249759932 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it's easy < 1249759933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we would just try experiments and conclude yep that classical shit is the bomb < 1249759951 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you point to those as features that are put in to make the universe easier to compute < 1249759952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its far easier to just leave particle positions as probabilistic things that dont have to be calculated all the time < 1249759961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude augur < 1249759961 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: yes, i do. < 1249759964 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if they're put in < 1249759965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know anything about QM < 1249759968 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means in the hyper-real universe < 1249759969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way that shit simplifies vs classical < 1249759972 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not there, right? < 1249759984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap < 1249759986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i think it does! < 1249759996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because you're not a physicist, you're a linguist on crack < 1249759997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: who knows. the hyper-real might not even be like our universe at all! < 1249760003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE YOU < 1249760007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're stupid. < 1249760008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: actually i was a physics major before i was a linguistics major < 1249760016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see why you switched < 1249760019 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, well whatever, *a* hyper-real universe that our universe is simulating, right? < 1249760031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: whoa you mixed that up there < 1249760035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sentence is freaky shit. < 1249760046 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont worry little one these ideas are VERY HARD < 1249760054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the simulation hypothesis is correct, sure! < 1249760058 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real scienticians are afraid of them < 1249760059 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1249760067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: dude dude you said that our universe is simulating our simulator < 1249760068 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hyper-real universe is, in fact, Newtonian < 1249760069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must have been a typo :P < 1249760076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe! < 1249760081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no no < 1249760084 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this whole idea < 1249760086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just a Scheme fan < 1249760098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :METACIRCULAR UNIVERSE < 1249760105 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is just the same thing as people who thought quantum mechanics and relativity were funny tricks < 1249760112 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Newton got it all right via unaided reason < 1249760137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing, iiii dont think so. you're assuming that the "hyperreal universe" is newtonian, when it could very well be completely different and non-newtonian < 1249760143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1249760144 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how! < 1249760148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop right there for one second augur < 1249760153 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hyper-real universe is like our universe < 1249760154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its a mistake to assume that the only two options are newtonian and relativoquantumic < 1249760155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want you to do some thinking for me < 1249760157 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus these computational aids < 1249760159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1249760160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1249760162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up Pthing < 1249760163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1249760166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would you assume that it's like our universe at all? :o < 1249760171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHUT UP < 1249760173 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: im listening, talk. jesus. < 1249760176 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well because that is by definition < 1249760186 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying our universe is simulating the hyperpeople's universe < 1249760188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: give me the mechanics of a universe that are consistent, result in complex patterns, and are relatively stable < 1249760190 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just *a* hyperuniverse < 1249760196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make them totally unlike anything we've ever dreamt of < 1249760197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO < 1249760210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant. < 1249760217 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and *the particular* hyperuniverse our computer is simulating appears to be our universe - computational flaws < 1249760218 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1249760220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congratulations, YOU LOSE < 1249760220 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtonian! < 1249760237 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: congratulations, i dont < 1249760242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249760243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do < 1249760246 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing: i dont get what you're saying < 1249760254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lost in fact as soon as you said "the simulation argument" < 1249760254 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what don't you get < 1249760263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what universe you're talking about, for one < 1249760269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you said it first :D < 1249760298 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am talking about the universe that the hyperpeople want to learn things about to which our universe is a computational simulation < 1249760309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur stop embarrassing yourself < 1249760327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1249760329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i see < 1249760343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperpurple people eaters < 1249760348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing, no no when i said its a simulation i just mean simulated, not a simulation of /something/ < 1249760353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonsense, hyperpeople just make huge simulation projects of wildly different universes that still requires oodles of computation FOR FUN! < 1249760359 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but that's implicit! < 1249760365 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't just have A Simulation < 1249760366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're three year old bobby's first universe < 1249760367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that like, The Sims is a simulation, but its not really a simulation of our universe < 1249760371 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is < 1249760373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i eman, i guess in some sense it is < 1249760373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1249760384 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a simulation of a particularly human-sized suburban american part of it < 1249760387 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas! < 1249760392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all simulations are simulations of preexisting things! < 1249760396 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :name one! < 1249760411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myst! < 1249760417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a particularly fun game, btw. < 1249760417 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, that's a puzzle game < 1249760419 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not < 1249760419 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1249760422 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simulation < 1249760424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a simulated environment! < 1249760426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249760427 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249760429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you lose augur < 1249760430 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1249760432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you massively lose. < 1249760450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ. < 1249760466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing < 1249760472 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch me not shut up < 1249760482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know why i wont shut up? because your opinion is irrelevant < 1249760482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually he can make you shut up. < 1249760483 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just say it < 1249760485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool feature of irc clients. < 1249760488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that make you feel? < 1249760493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing that you're irrelevant? < 1249760497 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think the universe is a simulation by some hyperpeople of a newtonian universe" < 1249760509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont, actually < 1249760514 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"slobber slobber sir isaac newton slobber slobber" < 1249760522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newton baby <3 < 1249760531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing you're so silly < 1249760538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow convincing < 1249760541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe you now augur < 1249760544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will have it etched in stone < 1249760546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe what? < 1249760550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"opposers you're so silly" < 1249760559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— augur, founder of the hyperpeoplenewtonianquantumosimulatron theory < 1249760564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :praise be < 1249760569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing isnt even opposing anything < 1249760578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he isn't? < 1249760580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this opossum is ur-elephant < 1249760602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, seeing as how im not saying the universe is a simulation, no < 1249760610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1249760613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what the fuck ARE you saying < 1249760614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UMM < 1249760622 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should read, ehird < 1249760633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: isn't that what he said? < 1249760637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i'm fairly sure < 1249760637 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been reading < 1249760638 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i admit < 1249760639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what he fucking said. < 1249760641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said like half an hour ago that the universe isnt a simulation. < 1249760645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249760646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you did not < 1249760647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249760648 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know what you *are* saying < 1249760648 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did < 1249760661 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from your points aren't very good < 1249760668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here look, ehird < 1249760668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you can't communicate with someone of any intelligence, that's your problem < 1249760671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the listener's < 1249760679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the simulation argument is wrong. < 1249760679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it probably is, but even so its fun < 1249760679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come back when you can state in a sentence WHAT YOU ARE SAYING < 1249760686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHATS THAT? ME AGREEING WITH YOU EHIRD? < 1249760689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally for the purpose of argument, < 1249760691 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG < 1249760693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we assume you believe what you're arguing for < 1249760704 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not < 1249760706 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1249760711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, "Devil's advocate: Nazis rock" "No they don't, Nazis don't rock, you're stupid" "I NEVER SAID NAZIS ROCK" < 1249760720 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1249760724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"...that's what you're arguing for." < 1249760732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No it's not, I said half an hour ago that nazis don't rock" < 1249760735 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really ti < 1249760736 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1249760738 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird shut up < 1249760747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm proud to have never made a good analogy in my life. < 1249760779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KNEEWAYS < 1249760791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑a < 1249760792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing, stop telling people to shut up. < 1249760797 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249760823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i just realized, both pthing and ehird are in england < 1249760823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1249760829 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and theyre both homosexuals! < 1249760831 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1249760841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok, ehird is 13, not a homosexual < 1249760843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm actually Pthing. < 1249760845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1249760845 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1249760855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing is gay because, pee thing, you see < 1249760857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it refers to a penis. < 1249760858 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1249760862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu < 1249760876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthing, its "om". your mantra sucks. < 1249760885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get with the program, gosh < 1249760886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the skeptic's mantra < 1249760890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1249760893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :carry on then! < 1249760905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY FUCK 360 DEGREE HOLOGRAPHIC DISPLAY < 1249760905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VusJwGTQQ < 1249760965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its still got a spinning component tho :( < 1249760988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1249760990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1249760992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who cares < 1249760995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its got a spinning mirror < 1249761001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what < 1249761004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1249761007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must spin fast enough to work < 1249761013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get your head chopped off, your own fucking fault < 1249761018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've had spinning-surface "holograms" for ages < 1249761022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 20 years or something < 1249761048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who fucking cares, it looks awesome < 1249761052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1249761052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1249761059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its been looking awesome for 20 years or something! < 1249761073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add some tactile gloves to that and you've got the most awesome "futuristic" computer ever < 1249761090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, one that you cant actually touch because your hand will get fucked up < 1249761094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1249761099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err why < 1249761106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mirrors aren't actually in the hologram are they < 1249761111 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are < 1249761114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1249761114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck that < 1249761117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hologram reflects off the mirror < 1249761125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was like < 1249761128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a circular chamber < 1249761131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mirror spins around the edges < 1249761135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249761135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :projecting it into the middle < 1249761144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is an interesting idea < 1249761157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to spin really fast though < 1249761166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that'd be uber noisy < 1249761176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it should work < 1249761183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itd be difficult to achieve, i think < 1249761189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and itd be pretty big < 1249761202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1249761208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a mirror spinning really fast be equivalent to uh < 1249761210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one big mirror < 1249761212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and youd have to look down at it < 1249761227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not if you put them in the (transparnet) ceiling and floor < 1249761229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*transparent < 1249761231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mirror spins around its center, so that its pointing at different places throughout its spin < 1249761234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as the walls < 1249761236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then voila! 3d. < 1249761242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so a big room then < 1249761247 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be veeerry tricky < 1249761266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: just move the mirrors with magic < 1249761269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic can do it fast enough! < 1249761270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1249761281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can it hold the mirror glass together, thats the question! < 1249761297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249761314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a planetarium-like thing at some university thats intended for something like that < 1249761317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a TED talk about it < 1249761326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt use holography < 1249761335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at the scale and distance used, it doesnt matter much < 1249761337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, that + big circular room + antigravity + tactile glove thingies + huge fucking earmuffs to block out all the awful noise from the spinning and levitation = BEST INTERFACE EVER < 1249761371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the gunnery interface in that one Babylon 5 movie < 1249761424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas it is not easy to maneuver in the kind of antigravity that doesn't involve a very fast plane < 1249761437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or indeed that kind too; if you could just sort of speed up movements it'd be fine < 1249761439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEP#Results < 1249761440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1249761442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1249761444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats hilarious < 1249761479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN TIDES < 1249761481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN LAKES < 1249761482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN TRAINS < 1249761486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it in space < 1249761487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 0k < 1249761487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RUININ MAH SPERMENTS < 1249761490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*K < 1249761494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no interference at all! < 1249761507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but then the alien space ships will fuck it up! < 1249761508 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur : I remember that story < 1249761519 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slereah_, you work in the cern area right? < 1249761526 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My quantum physics teacher told us < 1249761528 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1249761528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just contract out to nantes? < 1249761531 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even close < 1249761545 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although he just told us about the train, though < 1249761584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll probably be simpler to make good VR than to do the awesome interface :P < 1249761594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: probably. < 1249761602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen Lawnmower Man? < 1249761635 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it about the retard who gains superpowers? < 1249761636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i saw it when i was a kiddie < 1249761643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slereah: not quite < 1249761645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: if i'm thinking about the same movie, yes < 1249761650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not superpowers but < 1249761653 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retarded kid used in experiments with VR to boost intelligence < 1249761666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no don't call them experiments with vr < 1249761667 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, he makes a lawnmower in some dude's mind! < 1249761668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sequel he ends up creating a massive virtual world where people can upload their minds < 1249761670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it was is flashing images < 1249761674 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not super intelligence < 1249761675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and patterns < 1249761680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that made him clever < 1249761681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1249761682 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's mind warping < 1249761686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by playing a video game < 1249761702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game they played was a lot like the pre-release version of Wipeout, oddly < 1249761710 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which looks pretty interesting < 1249761712 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh, wipe < 1249761713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wipeout is a good game < 1249761726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if youve never seen the pre-release version, check out the Hackers movie < 1249761727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm i dunno if i played wipeout < 1249761729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1249761734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no i'm never watching that movie < 1249761736 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what wipeout is < 1249761744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game they play on the big tv is the prerelased wipeout < 1249761746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww ehird why not? < 1249761750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its fun! < 1249761819 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1249761826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirds worried that hes going to start thinking that hacking involves lots of pretty pictures on old mac laptops < 1249761830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1249761835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249761859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when everyone knows that it involves lots of pretty pictures on new ubuntu+compiz fusion laptops! < 1249761890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't call them laptops any more augur < 1249761894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1249761896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notebooks < 1249761898 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :portables < 1249761899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas the lap is now obsolete as NOTEBOOKS are < 1249761903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the enemies < 1249761905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of your sperm. < 1249761909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1249761909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spermemies. < 1249761914 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate my sperm anyway. < 1249761917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn sperm < 1249761936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell they actually like to be on your lap because they get all hot < 1249761936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REPUBLICAN RETARDS THINK THAT OBAMA IS PROPOSING MAKING SOYLENT GREEN REALITY. D': < 1249761948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sounds like a modest proposal to me. < 1249761967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Quite. < 1249761991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2Jh2i7JgY Wow. < 1249761993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not parody.) < 1249762100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :americans are stupid < 1249762104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a general fact < 1249762116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're such a bitch, bitch. < 1249762119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :republicans as much as democrats < 1249762129 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but i'm your bitch li < 1249762130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o < 1249762138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitch li? < 1249762145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo, nigga < 1249762153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :li is one character left of ;o < 1249762172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I'm neither. The Democrats are too right for my tastes. < 1249762181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im neither too < 1249762198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only because i favor the destruction of the whole political system as it currently exists. :D < 1249762204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, there? I have a plan9 installer question: How do I get it to use Swedish keyboard layout. I forgot since last time I did a plan9 in qemu < 1249762250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in the installer you don't, afaik. < 1249762254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Install it first. < 1249762260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it was possible < 1249762264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys: $100/£50 for the first person who can figure out what this translaiton SHOULD have looked like: < 1249762265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :آڈولف میركلے KFC died of her father when took his family business توجدید on the lines while it too much development soon . < 1249762271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also where is / on US layout? And + < 1249762279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I like to fuck goats < 1249762284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: close! < 1249762286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: / is after . < 1249762295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qwertyuiop[] (either enter or \) < 1249762297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is infact supposed to have been "When Adolf Merckle took charge of his family's business after the death of his father, he greatly improved the business very quickly through a process of modernization." < 1249762302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;' < 1249762306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe \ here < 1249762309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249762310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zxcvbnm,./ < 1249762311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1249762315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top row shifted: < 1249762317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and + ? < 1249762320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!@#$%^&*()_+ < 1249762325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unshifted < 1249762330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234567890-= < 1249762397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1249762406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, don't do venti. < 1249762413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use fossil. < 1249762424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a RAID with a buncha disks. < 1249762446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll raid your disks alright < 1249762460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to try venti that is why I'm doing this :P < 1249762469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, that's stupid. < 1249762474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ? < 1249762492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you don't have a lot of disk, and venti/fossil isn't exactly the most compact storage mechanism. < 1249762511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15 GB disk image. True not that much < 1249762513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fossils are too thinly spread out < 1249762523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi < 1249762540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo < 1249762555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck the screen dimming thingy in ubuntu btw. it doesn't work well < 1249762567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't actually have a spare x86/BIOS box anywhere < 1249762644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw. it plan9 cd doesn't even boot under virtualbox < 1249762695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, with the ICH6 IDE controller (not the default one) it does boot (very slowly) but then freezes when it tries to start the GUI < 1249762706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sata bith < 1249762708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitch < 1249762714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also use his 9grid image < 1249762719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tried sata too. didn't work well < 1249762719 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the install iso < 1249762724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what he told me to do at least < 1249762729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what was the url now again < 1249762734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it was qemu one < 1249762750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/gridtoolsplus.tgz < 1249762756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz is just the image < 1249762779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and qemu can't make use of the cool VT-x thingy < 1249762788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kqemu < 1249762802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure it can. < 1249762820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just need to have kvm in your kernel. < 1249762822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but that doesn't use hardware virtualization iirc? Only does some stuff in kernel to speed it up. Since kqemu works on my old sempron too < 1249762830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm < 1249762837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sempron has hardware virtualisation < 1249762846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1249762846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That's not what kqemu does. < 1249762848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no it doesn't < 1249762850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9 is very frugal with resources < 1249762851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i know < 1249762859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so vt-x is totally unneeded < 1249762866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, Semprons don't have it. < 1249762870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm < 1249762870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1249762876 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kvm only works if you have a processor that supports it :( < 1249762896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks around in qemu-launcher for a KVM option < 1249762900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Fabrice Bellard also wrote a Linux kernel module (with preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows) named KQEMU or QEMU Accelerator, which notably speeds up x86 emulation on x86 platforms. This is accomplished by running user mode code directly on the host computer's CPU, and using processor and peripheral emulation only for kernel mode and real mode code < 1249762902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close enough. < 1249762928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, but that isn't VT-x :P which was my point < 1249762961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1249762962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kqemu can accelerate kernel mode code, too < 1249762973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's a hack. < 1249762973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if having virtualbox and kvm running at the same time will cause issues < 1249762979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249762988 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't see why < 1249763002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polarisation < 1249763008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm typing vertically < 1249763012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :install is sure slow < 1249763014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder why < 1249763014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is uncomfortable < 1249763021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: takes like 30m. < 1249763024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe no DMA? though I said yes when it asked if I wanted to use DMA < 1249763044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30m isn't bad. < 1249763053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about 15 minutes passed of the "installing file system" phase. And it is at 15% < 1249763062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that will add up to 30 minutes < 1249763080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever used windows' file copy dialog AnMaster < 1249763136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. right. but a) this shows ETA in percent, not minutes b) the percent seems to be going at a steady rate, and has all the time < 1249763187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes for a larger desktop < 1249763191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desk* < 1249763195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in.... < 1249763222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to imagine a desk too small to fit a notebook. < 1249763230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't fit the throttle/joystick on there when the laptop is also on it < 1249763238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, throttle/joystick connected to desktop < 1249763248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and keyboard/mouse for desktop there too < 1249763249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll have to ask augur about joysticks < 1249763253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't advise there < 1249763287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: full size keyboard, mouse, large joystick, large throttle, laptop < 1249763292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just out of space then < 1249763304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already told you that i can't advise about joysticks. < 1249763368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well. I don't need advice. there is just no way to fit it :P < 1249763386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure augur is an expert on extra-large joysticks < 1249763450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..... < 1249763457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1249763497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe with laptop near the back of the desktop, since it is just installing atm, don't need to type anything < 1249763511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right! it's always important that your joystick fits snugly. < 1249763518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........ < 1249763531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to play vegastrike. that is why < 1249763548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, sure, ...play is an important part of human existence < 1249763554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't break anything < 1249763596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't know about "extra large". the base "box" of the throttle is 17x17 cm. about the same for the joystick < 1249763604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how tall? < 1249763640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1249763653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throttle? depending on what position it is in.. between 14 and 20 cm it seems < 1249763657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rouhly < 1249763661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly* < 1249763689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more than average < 1249763712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too < 1249763723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is about 5 cm for either < 1249763728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: !!! < 1249763729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's HUGE! < 1249763742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it? Never owned any other joystick < 1249763751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i don't think many people do... < 1249763759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, own a joystick? < 1249763762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1249763764 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my joysticks are indeed extra large < 1249763765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than one < 1249763775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: his is 11" < 1249763775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saitek X52 Pro btw < 1249763782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite good for flight sim < 1249763784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:35] AnMaster: joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too < 1249763789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an 17" and an 18" joystick. ;o < 1249763800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a 1000" joystick, true story. < 1249763806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1249763807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hawt < 1249763817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can get hard to carry around, like to lan parties < 1249763822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people like to play with it a lot there < 1249763825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda attracts a crowd < 1249763827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses the hall effect for sensing the position of the joystick. Rather than messy potentiometers < 1249763830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry i thought we were talking about dildos < 1249763839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1249763839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :penises < 1249763844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1249763846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND THUS THE EXTENDED INNUENDO ENDS < 1249763851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no. Joysticks. As in real joysticks < 1249763855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249763857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster has no sense of humor. < 1249763858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real joysticks, AnMaster < 1249763858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I know what ehird was trying to do :P < 1249763860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what we're talking about,. < 1249763863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I ignored it < 1249763864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,\.$/./ < 1249763869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays with ehirds joystick < 1249763870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: retcon retcon retcon < 1249763876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(erection erection erection?) < 1249763878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1249763880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad timing < 1249763882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why you gotta do that augur < 1249763885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I actually realised it at " that's HUGE!" < 1249763895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I though: "no I'm pretty sure it isn't" < 1249763895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your naivety knows no bounds < 1249763921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes I'm probably naive when it comes to innuendo < 1249763927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1249763949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joystick is where? in your end? oh. < 1249763983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do you like blinkenlights? < 1249763993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem < 1249763995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mittengrabben < 1249764004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another translation thingy: "In his words : ' is the operation was now are to Provide INFORMATION ABOUT IT ." < 1249764006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you are no geek :P < 1249764008 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mittens :D < 1249764018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently machine translations are Start To YELL AT YOU!!! < 1249764027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting* < 1249764040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: uhh, howso < 1249764077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, aren't you supposed to like shiny blinking lights and such? < 1249764087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, let me get this straight < 1249764089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made a reference < 1249764091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i continued it < 1249764097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you accused me of like < 1249764099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking the reference < 1249764103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youuuuuu're stuuuuupid < 1249764150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um. I didn't intend it as a reference like that. I intended it as a normal word for the mentioned concept (that of blinking lights) < 1249764158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights < 1249764159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail. < 1249764162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I misread you < 1249764169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem <-- read "no" as "nor" < 1249764175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you didn't like the reference < 1249764175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249764208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guh electron microscopes use electrons < 1249764213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought they looked at electrons < 1249764213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249764230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, seriously? < 1249764236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1249764237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seriously thought that? < 1249764238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249764245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION laughs at ehird < 1249764259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't _that_ far-fetched < 1249764273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they use electrons due to the shorter wavelength. In order to be able to "see" smaller details < 1249764295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that is what I learnt in the physics course in school < 1249764317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders about UK education < 1249764343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listening is never mandatory :P < 1249764383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu emulates a Pentium2? *HUH* < 1249764393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running at 2261 MHz < 1249764394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249764403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one rare Pentium II < 1249766418 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1249766481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1249766486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive started packing my books < 1249766513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive got almost three boxes full already < 1249766528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and im only done with the shelf along the top part of my wall < 1249766539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many books x.x < 1249766726 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electron microscopes do look at electrons, though :| < 1249766739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, question: as you know my laptop is high dpi. How do I make it possible to actually read what it says in plan9 on it :D < 1249766751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, where do I set DPI/font size stuff < 1249766790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, are you moving? < 1249766797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster: yeah < 1249766824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. good luck with finding large enough boxes < 1249766859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i have, dont worry < 1249767081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1249767102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get this across my plan9 screen atm: "err 2; arena arenas00 creation time after last write time" < 1249767103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of it < 1249768194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: plan9 fonts are bitmaps iirc < 1249768201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tough shit, scale up the window < 1249768211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use a bigger font < 1249769334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a low opinion of bitmap fonts < 1249769542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't exactly matter unless you have good typefaces. < 1249769559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Plan 9 fonts are non-free though, which is dumb. < 1249769590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course, just because they're non-free doesn't mean they could just bundle Helvetica or something; they presumably aren't paying royalties on the current fonts.) < 1249769745 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, that issue came up on 9fans recently - let me see if I can find the thread - the basic cause I believe is using venti and not allowing venti data dumps to complete, along with clock sync stuff < 1249769772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, venti breaks everything! < 1249769842 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, heres the thing - plan9 was designed to *not* run everything on the same box. its possible to do so, but stuff like the massive dumps of venti prints to your console because of frequent reboots tend to crop up < 1249769901 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this is a qemu vm, when i use venti and plan9 in qemu, i have to set up the venti server as a userspace process on a different qemu VM - trying to stuff a full venti/fossil/auth/cpu/terminal into a single qemu VM has never worked well for me < 1249769943 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because the qemu virtualization layer cant seem to handle it well - an all-in-one setup seems to work OK on native hardware or in vmware, but qemu just folds under the pressure < 1249770061 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you are interested in grappling with the 'arenas00 creation time' prints, look in http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07 and search for 'arenas' and you will find a long thread about exactly your issue < 1249770068 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cause, and how to eliminate it < 1249770091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Meh, that's work. *GIVES UP* < 1249770099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Further proof that Plan 9 sucks. < 1249770138 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of having the system be usable by people without extensive study and experience - plan9 is absolutely awful, that is for sure < 1249770153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trolling man < 1249770160 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say that learning how to use plan9 in any 'real' way took me almost 9 months of 10 hours a day study < 1249770164 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im serious hah < 1249770197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: uhh really? < 1249770201 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think plan9 is so amazing i devote large amounts of my time trying to figure out how to make the learning/setup curve less insane < 1249770203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did shit with plan 9 in hours < 1249770214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it set up, looked at the < 1249770214 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i doubt you did the things that make plan9 'important' in just a few hours < 1249770217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software stuff < 1249770223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used acme to hack out some code < 1249770225 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you havent had a cpu/auth server running before, imo youve never 'really' used plan 9 at all < 1249770227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried to use /dev/tcp and failed < 1249770234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: meh, that involves having multiple boxes < 1249770241 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: E X A C T L Y < 1249770257 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 'real' thing plan9 is supposed to do is distribute its functions over a minimum of 4 boxes, really < 1249770270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple boxes = noise + space + money + unportability < 1249770271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := lame < 1249770290 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thats why VMs are so important - i have 5 VMs running on an inexpensive desktop box currently < 1249770307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mycroftiv < 1249770307 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so moore's law and virtualization solved those issues < 1249770314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distributing across the same hardware is pointless! < 1249770318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's semantically null! it does nothing! < 1249770319 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its not at all < 1249770327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is though! < 1249770329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just extra overhead < 1249770331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for no gain < 1249770333 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you are totally mistaken < 1249770342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any OS that requires such a thing just has a bad process/communication model < 1249770509 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: any electronic circuit that requires more than a few transistors is clearly overdesigned and inefficient. < 1249770515 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers were a mistake to begin with! < 1249770524 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1249770531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it with this channel and strawmen lately? < 1249770538 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my meta-point sir < 1249770549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deep < 1249770602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep like the mariana's trench < 1249770603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amirite < 1249770633 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get confused between the marianas trench and the mindano trench < 1249770662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1249770663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1249770666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is named after mariana < 1249770666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1249770672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is named after mindano. < 1249770672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other < 1249770675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is named after mindano < 1249770689 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that clears things up, i hadnt noticed the difference in names before < 1249770691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mindanao actually < 1249770722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured it was probably mindanao, but you never know. :D < 1249770752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1249770767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ought to write a trivial bit of unexecutable os code so i can decide it's tedious and give up. < 1249770813 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: let me try to put it historically - the concept of plan9 was that bell labs would own and run all the hardware (cpus/disk servers/etc) and you would just have a cheap terminal that you dialed up the system on - and in your office, same thing, central machine room, cheap user terminals < 1249770830 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that was the usage scenario and model the OS was designed for, circa 1990 < 1249770837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know. < 1249770840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thin clients failed. < 1249770844 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1249770845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's a good thing < 1249770847 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and plan9 failed < 1249770852 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not so much of a good thing) < 1249770856 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it failed for good reasons < 1249770864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thin clients are fundamentally bad, tho < 1249770866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9 isn't < 1249770899 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i dont see how you can say that - i mean, all of us now use our computers often as 'thin clients' given the modern web and 'all i ever use is the browser' style mainstream computer use < 1249770910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmh < 1249770912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't get me started < 1249770949 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as a practical matter, the 'thin client' mode of use is now incredibly popular - and i know lots of people who do all their work on remote xen hosted stuff delivered via citrix, also < 1249770961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plenty of things are incredibly popular < 1249770964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like windows < 1249770965 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and suck, sure < 1249770976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thin clients are so popular right now becaus < 1249770977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1249770979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're CONVENIENT < 1249770987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the bloated heap of modern computing < 1249770992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not required < 1249771002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, thin clients are good in a lot of cases < 1249771003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1249771006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so much thin client < 1249771012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a thick client that gets external resources < 1249771020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thin client has the display dictated to, just does IO < 1249771026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thick client with external objects is much more powerful < 1249771040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, even then, plenty of things could work better locally if only it was *more convenient* to do so < 1249771054 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, all this for me is subpoint to what im trying to say, which is that recreating an analog of the original plan9 architecture with multiple VMs on a single machine isnt pointless at all, any more than running more than one *application* at a time is pointlesss, because thats all you are doing! < 1249771084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just shows to me that if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol to do more than one computation at once effectively, then its model is outdated < 1249771101 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i run a venti server VM, and a fossil server VM, and a cpu server VM, and then a terminal Vm (to give the extreme) - im just running 4 different software applications on one computer, its just a 'heavy' way to do so < 1249771105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ c/ c/ < 1249771108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloody double spaces < 1249771124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: a lot of redundancy there too, i see your point, < 1249771135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i get that with plan 9 it's "needed" to emulate the distribution this way, < 1249771142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't think it's the good way, as opposed to a hack < 1249771145 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the technical problem is actually the qemu virtualization layer being inadequate as a direct practical matter < 1249771164 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the software that is at fault is qemu, not plan9, in the original source incident i believe < 1249771185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh < 1249771200 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though plan9 people would say that you are supposed to 'know' that after you first install plan9, you should probably *not* reboot until your initial archival dump from fossil to venti completes) < 1249771261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhhhhhhhhhhh < 1249771321 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but, if you want to find evidence to support your assertion about "if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol..." is a comment in the source code near an early boot bring up of IP stack saying "this is such a crock" < 1249771331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1249771355 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that the process of trying to accomadate the average modern home user by figuring out how to stuff all the necessary components of a plan9 system into a single box that can be booted all at once - not so perfect, even by their standards < 1249771370 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249771401 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original system, the disk storage servers didnt even run the same kernel as the cpus and terminals < 1249771454 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally, code-wise, a 'different os' for each of the different functional components - over time that evolved and changed and some of the componenets were swapped out, like venti replacing the original archival data server < 1249771462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249771471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1249771473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i mentioned recently that kernels suck? < 1249771478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, thanks for that link < 1249771493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1249771531 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: welcome back, good luck with your setup - as i mentioned venti+fossil boot system inside qemu has always been problematic for me < 1249771536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird hm why? < 1249771544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, that is what I used yes < 1249771547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the explanation involves big words < 1249771559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brief summary http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html < 1249771569 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249771570 0 :MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249771619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how do you do scheduling of CPU time between objects? < 1249771634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hands AnMaster a "Didn't Read The Page At All" badge < 1249771644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I read the first few lines < 1249771649 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-198-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249771654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and then: tl;dr < 1249771662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fuck you, I'm not your personal reading assistant. < 1249771671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't read seven short paragraph < 1249771672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s. < 1249771691 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: long story short - the answer is nontechnical but processes dont schedule themselves, they attach to another 'meta-object' that controls task switching < 1249771702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: tl;dr < 1249771708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sentence was over 10 words. < 1249771717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, right... And that bit runs in ring0? < 1249771723 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249771731 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as i said, the wiki page was nontechnical < 1249771738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hur hur the hardware is what makes all design decisions hur hur < 1249771745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Abstraction? UNPOSSIBLE!!! < 1249771751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, well. I'm wondering how the hell this could be implemented on x86 at least.... < 1249771766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I assume is the goal < 1249771774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it being the most common architecture < 1249771788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in this case x86 includes 64-bit variants) < 1249771807 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: my opinion as a practical matter is that your OS abstraction layer is above what you might call 'shim code' and that (just imo at least) in some ways the differences are semantic/conceptual more than anything else < 1249771827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really can't imagine how to not have a kernel and just use attached procedures for task switching... < 1249771834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you're either hugely massively ignorant about how OSes work < 1249771836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just can't hack. < 1249771846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... < 1249771862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. < 1249771864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kernel includes stuff like loadable drivers to me. < 1249771872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah, it is like inferno or such? < 1249771876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1249771881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. < 1249771881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that is an unusual case. < 1249771884 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why im saying its mostly semantics and conceptualizing - and some real differences in what functional tasks are located in what coe blocks - but still < 1249771891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking < 1249771948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only comment on a no-kernel design is that it is probably very freaking hard to get working initially. < 1249771957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1249771966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we must be reading different articles < 1249771972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's exactly as easy as a kernel system < 1249771980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe a bit more accurate would be: whatever handles cpu scheduling, interrupt management, core memory management, doing the actual ring-0 code to do stuff like DMA and so on is the kernel < 1249771995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. < 1249772018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then provide *YOUR* definition of kernel < 1249772023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm waiting < 1249772031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.......... < 1249772035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: But you have to, like, do more design than "Alright, let's toy with the standard UNIX kernel design a bit". < 1249772044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want me to ship a copy of Wikipedia to your house? < 1249772046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you like that? < 1249772055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it too fucking long didn't goddamn read. < 1249772061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus. < 1249772078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird,I find my definition quite fitting with the one on wikipedia < 1249772087 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the thing making the design hard (IMO) is that you'd kinda be paving the way. < 1249772098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or do your system *trust all "traditionally userspace" code* < 1249772100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much of a criticsm, just a comment. < 1249772118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's like a microkernel only more so. < 1249772122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1249772134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ding. < 1249772135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong. < 1249772141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is nothing like a microkernel at all. < 1249772146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, microkernels are possibly the antithesis of it. < 1249772167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, he indicated everything ran in ring 0 above: " AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.". Seems insecure if you are, say, browsing the web < 1249772169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1249772188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will *always* be bugs in anything as complex as a web browser < 1249772189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Make it so that as little is done in the kernel as possible" is a lot like "Make it so that the 'kernel' is a misnomer." < 1249772197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You're truly an idiot. < 1249772205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, care to justify? < 1249772209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just personal insult :P < 1249772218 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thats right, the web is TEEEMING with exploits targeting a nonexistent operating system ;) < 1249772221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And the OS would be written in Smalltalk. < 1249772228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, because you never understand any of my justifications or rebut them with strawmen and faux-jokes because you're an idiot. < 1249772232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'll settle for a personal insult. < 1249772235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, well, assuming it would become popular. Which I also assume is a goal of every OS < 1249772254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you FAIL < 1249772255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only exploits akin to, say, the crazy shit done on Windows pre-NT would be from bugs of the Smalltalk implementation. < 1249772257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249772266 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody with any sense thinks any os is going to be popular unless it starts with a w, ends with s, and has indow in the middle < 1249772309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, yet linux is not that uncommon nowdays. Popular might even be a good word for it. Though far from as popular as windows indeed. < 1249772311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers that his client has an ignore feature, unlike his previous one < 1249772406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, anyway as far as I can see, trusting all code that runs seems stupid. Surely running code in a ring != 0 has proven a good (which isn't same as "perfect") solution by now :P < 1249772470 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i have no opinion, and none of the stuff from tunes or that ehird has said actually seems to make any kind of statement one way or another in that regard - i think ehird was speaking more generally about the 'whole os being kernel' than what ring stuff was assigned to < 1249772471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc also at least on x86 and x86_64 running everything in ring 0 would be suboptimal. As in: stuff like task switching and page tables are designed for a kernel/userspace split. < 1249772489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that is what reading the architectural documentation for AMD64 seemed to indicate < 1249772532 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: from everything ive gathered from ehird, most of the things he talks about are always taking place at a layer of abstraction built up from the native hardware behavior < 1249772570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, also, memory protection is good for other reasons too. Remember "app crashing crashed whole OS"? Wasn't that long ago that was the norm outside *nix < 1249772587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said < 1249772590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:50] AnMaster: mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... < 1249772590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:51] ehird: AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. < 1249772594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was just trolling him. < 1249772624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, and I'm mostly interested in the actual implementation details. The low level stuff. < 1249772632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ehird seems to hate thinking about < 1249772637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and talking about < 1249772667 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, its obvious that you and ehird direct your thinking at different topics, and i myself agree that 90% (99%?) of the actual work tends to be struggling with that stuff to get the abstractions you want created and working right < 1249772682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, my OS maps fairly directly to the hardware. < 1249772688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moreso, dare I say, than Linux < 1249772692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's just simpler. < 1249772695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, was that agreeing with me or ehird? < 1249772699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1249772707 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: its saying that you are talking past each other < 1249772725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to think of a context in which mycroftiv's last line makes sense < 1249772727 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: do you know about um, whats it called, battlecruiser 3000 or something, and that guy's legendary flame wars on the net? < 1249772727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Certainly easier to add features to. < 1249772739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: nope < 1249772742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, modularity. < 1249772743 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it makes sense when its obvious that you guys disagree on definitions < 1249772746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Battlecruiser 3000AD (also known as [BC3K] in Usenet) is one of the longest-developed games in computer game history. < 1249772748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun < 1249772759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, I'm a fan of OSes like http://www.coyotos.org/ Imagine how much I will dislike a OS *not* caring about security < 1249772777 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its interesting - and its a cautionary tale - it actually turned out to be a pretty good game, and the guy has a continuing series of later games that seem to have a fan community < 1249772784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... But he's not not caring about security. < 1249772805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is AnMaster accusing my OS of being insecure? < 1249772806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and gets angry when I want to know about how he implemented it < 1249772821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he know I'm doing a full fucking capability based system? < 1249772823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no exceptions? < 1249772832 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the original game took forever to make and was notorious for the guy making it trolling the hell out of usenet by talking about how great his game was, before hed actually written much of it < 1249772835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll note that the OS is meant to be programmed in Smalltalk. Who needs hardware memory protection when the language itself guarantees memory safety? < 1249772840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not unignore me if you are going to ask what I just said... < 1249772851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HURR BUT WHAT IF YOU HAVE A BUG IN THE INTERPRETER < 1249772861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hah. Well I didn't know that until a few minutes ago when ehird said it < 1249772863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, Linux has the exact same problem. So do all kernel systems. < 1249772867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I say "system calls"? < 1249772868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it you or mycroftiv? < 1249772885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1249772885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's said it in the past, at least. < 1249772897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I have been away for most of the last few days < 1249772901 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you should stop talking about your os as if its something that exists and is running now and has definite proven characteristics. < 1249772904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty damned clear he intends to do it all in Smalltalk, and have the Smalltalk implementation written in Forth. < 1249772913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, your attempts at trolling fails when you are guessing at what I'm saying < 1249772917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'm not < 1249772922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about the fundamental design < 1249772932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., if these constraints aren't met, it isn't the OS < 1249772942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, link to that game? < 1249772958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, brb < 1249772961 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thats why i point to the battlecruiser 3000 example, because its so similar, in terms of the failures of communication between designer and people he was talking to < 1249772983 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i dunno, i always just google it when it crosses my mind to check in on it < 1249772987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1249772991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, is it freeware? < 1249773009 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is now, yeah - its day of legendary usenet flame wars was a decade ago or something < 1249773050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, anyway I'm genuinely interested in how ehird is going to solve the actual implementation on x86/x86_64 while ensuring good performance. And good security. < 1249773103 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just as i told ehird he shouldnt talk about his os as if it exists yet, i think its also silly for you to expect implementation details given that you know there isnt any code running yet < 1249773111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, I wonder what will become of DNF then... < 1249773161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, well surely he must have considered "will this design actually work on hardware that is likely to be available" < 1249773177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"or do I need to develop my own -machine?" < 1249773182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See Smalltalk for more details. < 1249773255 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you can get whatever chips you want to implement whatever formal behavior you want, thats pretty well established - and I agree with where Fred Brooks ended up about software development: < 1249773283 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate, improve, iterate, improve - always from a working minimal testbed - and do your design 'ahead' of yourself, but constantly with redesign based on the testing and use < 1249773290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know it is closed world. But you have to consider "will it run well on common architectures" when designing anything. To take an _extreme_ example: Searching memory by using CAM is more efficient than most other search algorithms. Yet it isn't commonly available on most hardware. < 1249773312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found in special equipment like network switches and routers mostly < 1249773326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... But Smalltalk works, and it works sufficiently well for most purposes. < 1249773337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an OS that depended on it for being efficient would be rather useless for most people < 1249773366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is like asking if C could be used for an OS... < 1249773366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes. But does he intend to run it under a host OS hosting the smalltalk implementation forever? < 1249773368 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyone doing any work on creating a 'new os' should obviously know as a practical matter most people will never hear of it or care. and thats ok. < 1249773375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will it be the "native OS you boot into" at some point < 1249773388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the one you select in grub < 1249773398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever bootloader you use) < 1249773455 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ehird has stated clearly that he intends to control the hardware natively and not run simply as hosted 'environment' < 1249773485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, right. Maybe he did before. But as I mentioned, I have been pretty busy during the days recently < 1249773506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I hardly have time to read several hours of fast paced conversation in logs < 1249773533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I might have missed details when I was marked away :P < 1249773549 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt mean for my statement 'ehird has stated clearly...' to carry the implication that you were at fault for not knowing that < 1249773570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249773577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he intends to code it in small talk? < 1249773586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't the small talk runtime system be the "kernel" then < 1249773592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a certain sense < 1249773605 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, he wants to use forth for the lower level components of the system < 1249773613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since iirc smalltalk is pretty hosted. far from the "portable asm" that C is < 1249773631 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :create a smalltalk implementation hosted within his forth environment < 1249773639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1249773661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then < 1249773663 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the basic concept he has outlined, which is definitely challenging, but i dont think there is anything at all 'wrong' with it conceptually < 1249773691 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant speak for him, the way the two of you define 'kernel' hasnt been straightened out < 1249773710 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think when you say 'kernel' its fkdjkjaasd to him and when he says 'kernel' its kaoiuweruieu to you < 1249773752 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to be using an 'operational' definition, in the sense of 'the kernel is whatever code that does x, y, z, so if x, y, z are done, whatever does them, we call a kernel' < 1249773767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts < 1249773770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot more < 1249773796 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, and that definition seems to make ehird angry, he seems to regard is as unconventional/incorrect < 1249773808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, and he referred me to wikipedia < 1249773816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that wikipedia page seems to agree with me < 1249773831 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no role as referee as to definitional correctness, i wash my hands < 1249773840 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with humpty dumpty personally < 1249773844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" < 1249773850 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"when i use a word, it means exactly what i want it to mean, neither more nor less" < 1249773852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1249773875 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i was trying to answer some questions, you should verify my statements because i cant speak for you < 1249773896 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i believe stuff like 'forth lower layer, smalltalk upper layer' is 'established fact' about your os design now < 1249773947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION unignores AnMaster and reads logs to make sense < 1249773949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:21:01 won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then < 1249773950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1249773956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk, for instance, handles talking to the keyboard < 1249773958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the display < 1249773958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1249773966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is just for writing the Smalltalk and what's needed for that. < 1249773984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:22:47 mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts < 1249773996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by that definition, both all of my OS and none of my OS and everything in between is the kernel < 1249774007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could isolate some bits and say maybe-this-is-the-kernel < 1249774012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be hopeless < 1249774027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:24:04 "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" < 1249774028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, you can't do certain stuff in userspace on most modern CPU arches. This includes x86, PPC and some more. Userspace being defined as "whatever is the equivalent of ring 3 on the CPU arch". You will get general protection fault for loading the task register while in ring 3 for example on x86. < 1249774030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no manager in my OS < 1249774035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the kernel as the government < 1249774040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my OS as a peaceful anarchist commune < 1249774076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) < 1249774092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, are all applications managed, as in running under a VM, like inferno or such < 1249774102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where VM here would be the smalltalk code I assume < 1249774109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mu < 1249774118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capability system < 1249774129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if an object has a reference to another object that talks directly to the hardware < 1249774131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can talk to the hardware < 1249774132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what *enforces* the capabilities < 1249774140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: capabilities don't require "enforcement" < 1249774142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plz see wikipedia < 1249774201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) <-- I don't live in US... < 1249774208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: loooooool < 1249774216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how a government derives its authority right? < 1249774217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it was a lame joke :P < 1249774226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes < 1249774228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1249774231 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249774231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no such thing as a de jure government, only a de facto one enforced by the threat of violence < 1249774233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, technically, an assorted bunch of objects around the system will have methods that run in ring-0, as an implementation detail < 1249774240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this does not include drivers < 1249774245 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :government derives its authority from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony < 1249774245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers just use these objects to talk to the hardware < 1249774258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you'd have drivers running in userspace according to you < 1249774283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ok. I can already see the performance problems ahead on x86. I suspect I know more about this sort of thing on x86 than you do. < 1249774285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1249774292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree the idea sounds great < 1249774295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think what you want < 1249774311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you realise that smalltalk as an os is nothing new right < 1249774315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the original smalltalk was < 1249774322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, drivers in user space is certainly possible. But for some stuff it just won't cut it < 1249774338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm uninterested in your argument by assertion < 1249774359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Shame that modern CPUs are effectively C machines, isn't it? Makes it a bit hard to imagine anything else. < 1249774370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overhead of switching between userspace/kernel when handling interrupts from a 10 gbps ethernet card? < 1249774378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: userspace/kernel? < 1249774378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you serious :P < 1249774379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing < 1249774381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well < 1249774384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ring 0/3 < 1249774403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't even suggest ring 1 or 2 on x86. They are *even* slower to switch to/from < 1249774426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking everything you said as axiomatic, because I can't be arsed to argue: then we run everything under ring 0 < 1249774434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since ring 0<->3 has a "fast path" named SYSCALL/SYSRET and/or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT < 1249774440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on if you ask AMD or Intel < 1249774463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how you seem to think that an operation on a cpu will somehow not achieve 10gbps? < 1249774471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, there's more than those for ring 0<->3 jumps... < 1249774499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes there is more to do. I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion < 1249774503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has a function at a fixed memory location that does whatever's fastest, because there's so many ways to do it... < 1249774507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1249774520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but going to/from rings 1 and 2 is *even* slower < 1249774540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and I know about the vdso :) < 1249774548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, I'm among good company with my won't-cut-it performance-destroying managed model < 1249774551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Tell that to Xen? :P < 1249774553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like microsoft, with their Singularity project < 1249774569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's comforting to know both me and microsoft know less about x86 than AnMaster < 1249774573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, running everything in ring 0 could work < 1249774583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Microsoft Research. < 1249774584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They < 1249774592 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are < 1249774594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aka the good part of Microsoft < 1249774594 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming < 1249774595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'re the same guys that think Haskell is a decent language. ;) < 1249774601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Quite right. < 1249774605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Well. That is relative "interpreting/dynamic recompiling in userspace" < 1249774621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then yes using the extra rings is better < 1249774679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, iirc virtualbox uses ring 1 too for this. Not sure if that applies when using VT-x/AMD-V though < 1249774777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VT-x/AMD-V is most akin to VM-86. That is, the code runs in ring 0, except with unsafe calls automagically getting shipped on through to the hypervisor. < 1249774783 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since you mention virtual machines, doesnt that point in the direction of 'not worrying' because I can run a qemu vm with no kqemu on an almost 10 year old freebsd box and put plan9 inside and still have a usable environment? < 1249774783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway AnMaster, my system absolutely has no *centralised* kernel < 1249774788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what a kernel is! < 1249774794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it has privileged code < 1249774798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a kernel is centralised, that's the definition < 1249774807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, plan9 doesn't use a lot of resources < 1249774836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more about "server under high load, maybe DDoS" kind of scenario. < 1249774851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: not worrying about what? < 1249774853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i missed the context < 1249774860 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just saying, so far as I can tell, even the 'worst case scenario' of having the slowest possible way of using weak hardware, you can still get something usable out of it < 1249774898 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not worrying too much about optimal hardware performance < 1249774922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_addressing looks nice, but that requires hardware support, which isn't present on x86 at least. < 1249774924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean the ring0 vs ring3 task switching crap? < 1249774931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ignored that because it's obviously fast enough < 1249774936 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see, heres my perspective - i started using a computer in 1980, and subjectively, that was still the FASTEST computer ive ever used in terms of time-to-task in many ways < 1249774947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: useless < 1249774954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, heh < 1249774956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically never access memory directly anyway < 1249774963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why would I use that? < 1249774965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you don't? < 1249774970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not in smalltalk I guess < 1249774980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: Not in any sane system. < 1249774990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do you want to be able to run ported programs written in other languages? < 1249775017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. My OS doesn't have programs, it has objects. < 1249775037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dual-booting or using a VM is infinitely preferable to breaking the model like that, because you'll just end up with something that acts like a VM anyway. < 1249775040 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitions, definitions, definitions < 1249775043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so you will need to develop your own web browser object replacement instead of creating an object that wraps webkit? < 1249775045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really need it, POSIX/ELF emulation layer, fully sandboxed. < 1249775049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an example < 1249775064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe if I was trying to freakin' make something practical I'd be cloning Linux, have you considered that? < 1249775068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: no, fundamental design < 1249775075 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im gonna make an os where i dont have programs, i dont have objects, i have DELICIOUS CHEESECAKE and ICE CREAM and it will be great < 1249775077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I thought something usable was a goal < 1249775083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And?!! < 1249775092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "this is a OS I will use as my main one in 10 years time" < 1249775093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9 doesn't integrate POSIX apps either. < 1249775094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1249775100 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i dont believe smalltalk and object oriented is actually 'fundamnetal' in the sense you do - i think its a perfetly valid and useful and beautiful set of abstractions < 1249775109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: fact is < 1249775113 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont think it means that a program aint a program any more, its just an objecct < 1249775114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a posix program does NOT fit in with my model < 1249775115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1249775116 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thas just semantics < 1249775158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, will you have some sort of window manager for the OS? < 1249775176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some "this isn't horrible X but it handles the GUI" sort of thing < 1249775195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any plans for the GUI? < 1249775195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm working on a hobby OS called Linux < 1249775195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does it have a web browser yet? < 1249775201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1249775209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't say GUI, there is no command line. < 1249775217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the bootup forth console could count. < 1249775309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the ui < 1249775312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was not saying "has it yet", I was saying "any plans for this" < 1249775317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please read what I actually said < 1249775320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nononono < 1249775321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1249775324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't say GUI < 1249775326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the G is redundant < 1249775329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just the UI < 1249775335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant about the "Leenus Torvalts" bit :P < 1249775337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens to require a graphics processor and a colour display < 1249775354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: window manager is an implementation detail, though < 1249775357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says i'll even use windows? < 1249775370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't my old vector display enough? WILL I NEED A FRAMEBUFFER? < 1249775372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1249775378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite so good cheap < 1249775380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249775380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chap < 1249775392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what would you use instead of windows < 1249775398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what sort of abstraction < 1249775411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1249775427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the abstraction of "windows" while far from perfect seems to be one that "kind of works better than everything else thought of so far" < 1249775460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know that the typical user's workflow consists of a tab bar at the bottom, with applications, and in one of those windows a tab bar at the top, being their pages, right? < 1249775471 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has nothing to do with ehird's os (since he doesnt like them) but i believe that we should replace the desktop metaphor with a namespace tree/network map < 1249775473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floating windows aren't used by the average computer user < 1249775484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: wait when did i say i didn't like those < 1249775498 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems < 1249775501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: oh < 1249775502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, I don't < 1249775505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like trees < 1249775515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like floating things that you can search < 1249775547 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and my visualization is a big 'tree' that shows your file system and you can zoom in and out on the content hanging on the branches, and it also can be zoomed out to show network map of the lan, etc - show the interconnections on the workspace < 1249775547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems <-- that is easily solved. Don't use MacOS < 1249775558 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just a blank space full of disconnected icons < 1249775560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(HFS is short for "hierarchical file system" ;P) < 1249775590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly, Mac OS is clearly an operating system for raincoats. < 1249775593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you don't like trees? You will hate implementing memory management on x86 then :D < 1249775597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fruit. < 1249775600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is trees. lots of them < 1249775606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :page table trees < 1249775615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format dictated by hardware < 1249775627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just molest x86 until it does what I want. < 1249775635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have to rewrite all the microcode, so be it. < 1249775650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, think it is hard wired into the silicon. < 1249775652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for speed reasons < 1249775656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and the MMU < 1249775663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so? < 1249775670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :microcode won't help < 1249775670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just find some instructions that heat up the processor so much that it melts < 1249775676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then cool down at just the right time < 1249775678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh HCF right < 1249775678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila! new microcode < 1249775686 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i meant to get some food 3 hours ago, time to avoid dying of starvation due to os discussions < 1249775699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so < 1249775705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I WAS THINKING ABOUT MEMORY MANAGEMENT < 1249775712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also your inability to eat. < 1249775824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, memory management is fun. Getting it right is *hard* < 1249775840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't sound fun to me < 1249775902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, go read some reference manuals for system programming. AMD ones are generally easier to find your way around in than intel ones. Use both for the best result < 1249775912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1249775922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been able to avoid any Intel/AMD manuals so far in my life < 1249775931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly that makes coding asm nontrivial < 1249775935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you won't if coding a full blown OS < 1249775949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh :D < 1249775964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, handing SMP is even funnier < 1249775988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me the CPU doesn't have a predefined notion of processes/threads that it uses to do that? < 1249775992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me it's lower-level ;_;