< 1249344041 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is some of your thinking on symbols and syntax? < 1249344103 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it incredibly frustrating that compared to mathematics, the use of symbols in computer languages is entirely inconsistent and contradictory < 1249344130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntax is a bloody pain in the arse. < 1249344154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think to improve on it we need to take cues from user interface design, because that's what it is. < 1249344159 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well put < 1249344195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike s-expressions because they put a less common usecase, metaprogramming, over the more common one: regular programming. < 1249344214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pro-metaprogramming, but the whole language doesn't have to be made worse just for it. < 1249344235 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill accept that, thats for sure - you always want the stuff you do the most often to have the most direct expression < 1249344277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1249344440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, sometimes tailoring syntax for metaprogramming can lead to great things < 1249344455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a forth example: (I'll pastebin a console log due to laziness) < 1249344458 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely, its very interesting the power of just a graceful noptation < 1249344489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/570426.txt?key=2vfkfnbijhced9ucvqbjw < 1249344500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a less minimal syntax, I couldn't have done that < 1249344510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't have my definitions be the form they create < 1249344534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: \n cr ; was a bit gratuitous now that i think about it < 1249344568 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice compressed expression of meaning, absolutely < 1249344616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't seen forth scale up to a smalltalk-esque system < 1249344633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rich structures in forth, for instance, are not really practical < 1249344638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rich = smalltalk object level) < 1249344656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think it's good for hacking up stuff, exploring and the lower-level systems < 1249344665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps isolated components < 1249344666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is still an awful lot < 1249344721 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive been playing with an idea for a language that im not entirely sure really makes sense or not, but i guess this is the place to throw it out there < 1249344744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please do < 1249344749 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an incredibly minimalistic language based on the observation that such a huge amount of lines of code are just assignment statements < 1249344779 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the observation in plan9 that everything somehow works in a somewhat similar way, with bind NEW OLD constantly - just making NEW a new name for OLD, which is basically like an assignment < 1249344834 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea is that you are given to stat - a basic environment that just has names that correspond to various basic functions (obviously a name for screen display, a name for keyboard input, that kind of thing) < 1249344860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: note that in haskell assignment is much less common < 1249344863 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the only thing you ever do - the only statement that exists - is just assignment / binding - you get tokens also of course to work with, numbers and letters etc < 1249344866 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1249344870 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand the functional languages are totally different < 1249344874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as generally you just make transformations, sometimes splitting a value into two to retain one or to perform two operations < 1249344875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah < 1249344879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just throwing it out there < 1249344891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that assignment as an operation is very useful < 1249344896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a syntactic denotation of a name < 1249344899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but go on < 1249344924 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats really exactly what im trying to get at < 1249344940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you use assignment to do things? < 1249344946 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea that maybe you can make an enviroment where 'all you do' is just define the names < 1249344975 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you obviously have to have some names/objects that correspond in a simple way to things like input and output < 1249345008 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a very lame conceptual example, the idea that you can do 'bind keyboard screen' - and then what you type shows up on the screen - captures a little bit of it < 1249345031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as graphical noise, I assume < 1249345046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: anyway, that's a distinct operation from assignment < 1249345055 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way yes, in a way no < 1249345062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's plugging one thing into another < 1249345065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a pipe < 1249345069 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i can conceptualize assignment as making a variable a 'label' for a number < 1249345087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: piping the value to a program which holds on to it < 1249345092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then outputs it forever < 1249345120 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, there are lots of mappings of what is going on < 1249345205 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the core of the idea is just an environment where all you do is create the names you want to use, decide what labels will refer to what tokens/values, and 'thats it' < 1249345256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249345262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's assignment. < 1249345276 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats true, but since the language doesnt have assingment as a separate concept... < 1249345289 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like the idea of 'naming' can kind of encompass it - in fact, 'late binding' is really related < 1249345306 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :late binding plays with the distinction between 'just a name' and an actual 'changing a thing' right? < 1249345312 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for my sloppy terminology < 1249345325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1249345331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Late binding just changes how names are resolved, not assigned < 1249345333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/./ < 1249345345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I think assignment is a *subset* of your operation. < 1249345354 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah absolutely, thats the idea < 1249345638 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its obviously a conceptual/experimental language, the question being 'what is the minimal set of initial objects/tokens that you need for such an environment to be theoretically usable and turing complete?' < 1249345642 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249345745 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249345755 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to easily establish that its certainly possible, you could obviously supply an environment where the premade objects that you get to rename/bind are an infinitely long tape, a collection of 'stateholders' and then the obvious mark-making rules - of course at that point youve just overlaid a silly semantics across a generic utm, but its just a limit case < 1249345817 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249345843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi GregorR-L. < 1249345849 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG < 1249345884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: i am not sure it is very wise to worship ehird < 1249345884 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives Goodwill an A PLUS
< 1249345898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249345905 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh My Godoerjan < 1249345912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: he greeted you with OMG < 1249345922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh My GregorR-L < 1249345940 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can I warship you? :P < 1249345953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird and GregorR-L and oerjan, oh my < 1249345965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION warship's your mom
< 1249345968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1249345971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the apostrophe < 1249345978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit that's the first apostrophe mistake i've made in, like, years < 1249345983 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION , oerjan and Deewiant should from a clique and call it GOD
< 1249345990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beware, though, of the wereship < 1249346006 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye < 1249346026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should form a clique and call it E < 1249346101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Man would i hate to be oedipus, just imagine your liver being eaten by a whale every morning because you fell into the water" < 1249346101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—Reddit < 1249346164 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.................. < 1249346167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, there is no E13 or E14 simple lie group < 1249346203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I know right :D < 1249346233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAIL mythological biology, or... < 1249346250 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell skilled trolling < 1249346260 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1249346274 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: From now on "fell into the water" will be coy talk for "fucked yer mum" < 1249346279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that was prometheus < 1249346299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/973fj/the_gamers_dream_girlfriend_pic/c0bnqyz < 1249346305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's like 70 things in once < 1249346307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an eagle. < 1249346318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: What does liver being eaten mean? < 1249346322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the whale effect it? < 1249346326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about morning? < 1249346390 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His liver metaphorically represents his honor for his father. < 1249346399 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is destroyed (eaten) early in his life (in the morning) < 1249346419 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whale represents the fact that whales are cool. < 1249346422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats GregorR-L -----###
< 1249346428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: But every morning? < 1249346432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the in the morning reference) < 1249346433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, like, reincarnation? < 1249346853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: WELL? < 1249346882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a deep well, with a whale in it < 1249347109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now convinced that a system with Forth at the low-level and Lisp or Smalltalk at the high-level is the way to go. < 1249347162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the highlevel language should be called Multiply, for obvious reasons < 1249347703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, clearly it should be Fift or Fith < 1249347727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Fiff't" and… "Fith", respectively.) < 1249347779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird doesn't like my pun :( < 1249347786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it. < 1249348253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right? < 1249348298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can we have the red/grue colour system? :-) < 1249348311 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grue/bleen is superior - you know that paradox? < 1249348332 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an attack on the validity of inductive reasoning < 1249348383 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define the property 'grue' to mean 'green before the year 2050, blue afterwards' and 'bleen' to mean 'blue before 2050, green afterwards' - the problem is: < 1249348400 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can we say 'the sky is blue' is a better statement than 'the sky is bleen' ? < 1249348414 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since all the observational evidence that confirms the first also confirms the second < 1249348432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term < 1249348484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I was just using the term referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language < 1249348499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?]] < 1249348504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/colours/cultures/ ofc < 1249348512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thus, the three most basic colors are black, white, and red (in his 1924 book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler described this as his justification for his choice of the colors for the Nazi flag, as he felt these three colors would most appeal to the masses)." < 1249348535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1249348538 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt research show that there is actually a set progression for the introduction of color words into languages? < 1249348545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: sort of. < 1249348557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: that's what the link refers to < 1249348581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*my < 1249348613 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pride myself on trying to talk out my ass based on pre existing knowledge without letting the wikipedia borg always outthink me - its a losing battle < 1249348635 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, when i was a kid and we were talking about what sci-fi was real and what wasnt < 1249348663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hitler had particular foresight there, since the actual scientific study wasn't until 1969 < 1249348670 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought, based on what i knew about computers at the time - early 80s - that the single most bs thing in scifi was the computer on the Enterprise in star trek that could answer any question you asked perfectly < 1249348688 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little did i know id be feeling obsoleted by such a device just a couple decades later < 1249348691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's mathematically impossible :-P < 1249348701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all /shrug < 1249348722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ISN'T? < 1249348731 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah no doubt, sucks in a ton of ways - i used to spend hours and hours trying to work as an editor on the classical music articles < 1249348749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately wikipedia only works because of its truly sad editor base < 1249348757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I depress myself just looking at the non-article pages < 1249348766 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also was part of a horrible, horrible long running fight to save the 'einstein' wikipedia page from long term attack by these people who felt like einstein stole it all from henri poincare - which is actually a complex issue < 1249348776 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and made for a truly amazing struggle that was like 2 years long < 1249348823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia's, in general, a bunch of idiotic naive people who are all despicably sociopathic: ridiculous abundances of community "friendship" with unbelievable cliques, cabals and the like; incredibly focused on bureaucracy; and truly spiteful and hateful to anyone they oppose < 1249348824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it saddens me < 1249348856 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i certainly couldnt deal with the social aspect of the editing universe, i just tried to work purely on content < 1249348856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and they're all utterly obsessed with wikipedia < 1249348866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never seen a significant editor who has a life and doesn't dedicate so much time to it < 1249348877 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still clean up pages as seems needed, but i often do it anon rather than logging into my editor account < 1249348879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an utter shame that without these awful people, wikipedia wouldn't really work < 1249349046 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i think wikipedia is amazingly successful in that regard - when you think about the human energy that pre-wikipedia would have gone into purely personal obsessiveness, that now can be devoted to making sure that all fancruft in a given area is rigidly thought-policed for series continuity failures, its amazing < 1249349087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1249349092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a bit depressing though < 1249349163 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249349325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doo doo doo, Forth is fun, doo doo doo, Smalltalk is fun. It's nice to see a plan come together. …although nicer to see it implemented, which would be very unlike me. < 1249349643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you would be able to cackle maniackally! < 1249349727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, maniack would be a nice term for a mad scientist, analogous to magick < 1249349959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maniack's Almanack of Magick < 1249350008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science" < 1249351187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249351575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1249352032 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249352133 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249352984 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249353337 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249353717 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1249356048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCZ is selling 1TB SSDs... < 1249356048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jeeze, that's crazy. < 1249356052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$2,200 crazy. < 1249356072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, *now* I'm impressed. < 1249356077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's 1TiB. < 1249356094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's right. Hard drive manufacturer using binary units. Fuck yeah. < 1249358950 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249359988 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1249362179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1249363574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249363799 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249366979 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249368653 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@a-18.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1249369195 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249369209 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249369211 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249369356 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249370718 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249372635 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-15-200.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249372799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1249372800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1249373112 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249373550 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone who wants to leave their mind a smoking crater of knowledge can check: < 1249373554 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0340 < 1249375200 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the self-published papers site? < 1249375240 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, category theory in quantum physics < 1249375253 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now surely I've seen everything < 1249375329 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very respected researcher, this is a major summary paper of the state of his thinking on some amazing cross-disciplinary connections < 1249375387 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for computer oriented people, the later section of the paper is obviously going to be 'home turf' but the whole point is the extensive and formally valid 'mapping between mappings of mappings' < 1249375507 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how conceptual/abstract is the mapping? < 1249375520 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, if it is actually formally valid... < 1249375536 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, since its category theory in the first place, its very very abstract - but it is also serious formal mathematics, not at all somebody making up bs < 1249375584 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean abstract more in a philosophical way.. but if you say there's no BS :P < 1249375632 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the goal of the paper is definitely philosophical, to show the deep structural correspondences between different fields, but the mechanism is a careful formal investigation of the actual mathematical content of the disciplines < 1249375714 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the author, john baez, has one of the best websites that has ever been on the internet, 'this week's finds in mathematical physics' which was a 'blog' before anybody invented that ugly word - started on january 19 1993, how about that! < 1249376481 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1249377092 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249377251 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249377645 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249377850 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249377893 0 :immibis!n=IceChat7@125-236-168-223.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1249377992 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249378040 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249378788 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249378935 0 :oklopil!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249380012 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249380075 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249380171 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://normish.org/home/immibis/jsrotate/ < 1249380264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heikki Kallasjoki's Master's thesis presentation 11.8 < 1249380281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be there and ask tricky questions < 1249380297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrr. < 1249380349 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also Teemu Ruokolainen's (another guy in the speech group) similar presentation there in ten minutes; I'm about to go there to do some reconnaissance to see what them things are like. < 1249380405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been to a few; the topic doesn't interest me that much so I wasn't planning on bothering with that one < 1249380449 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you" < 1249381173 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249381612 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1249382482 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool i'm so coming < 1249383237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, there was pretty much just the speech group people in that one, plus I guess some others involved in the two EU-funded projects it was related to. < 1249383272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The A328 room is not that big (fits maybe a dozen people comfortably) so don't start any mass movements, now. < 1249383311 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1249383394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to just keep my SPECOM'09 conference presentation again, to save some preparation time. Maybe slightly altered. < 1249383531 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't reuse a presentation, that's like having two of the same pokemon in a ball < 1249383560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I know what that means. Does it mean they start procreating in there? < 1249383605 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually have no idea, it started with like having these packs of pokemon cards, what if someone gets a pokemon they already have, then i just mixed it up a bit < 1249383626 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fits pretty perfectly imo < 1249383650 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone already heard it, they'll probably laugh at you and throw a shoe < 1249383703 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kinda like you throw pokeballs?) < 1249383713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mikko's probably going to be there, and he's heard it already. It's probably harder to do shoe-avoidance in a small room, even. < 1249383791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, there's that famous mathematician joke with the "reduce to a problem that's already solved" theme; I'm just applying that to the presentation. < 1249383815 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess that makes sense < 1249385725 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it" < 1249387753 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387753 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387753 0 :Xiin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387754 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387754 0 :Dewio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387754 0 :Robdgreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387755 0 :randomity!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387755 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387756 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387756 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387756 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387756 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387757 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387757 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387757 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :evenant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387758 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387759 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387759 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387759 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387759 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249387824 0 :nooga!n=nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :oklopil!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :mycroftiv!n=drabgah@h69-128-47-245.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Dewio!n=dewi@203-214-111-155.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-22-245.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Xiin!n=X@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust781.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-198-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :randomity!i=mu@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :ineiros!n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :mtve!n=mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387824 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249387942 0 :upyr[emacs]!n=user@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388166 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaaa < 1249388649 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388649 0 :Dewio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388649 0 :Robdgreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388677 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388677 0 :Dewio!n=dewi@203-214-111-155.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388677 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388736 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388736 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388736 0 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:Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388741 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388742 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388742 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249388786 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :Dewio!n=dewi@203-214-111-155.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :upyr[emacs]!n=user@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :nooga!n=nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :oklopil!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :mycroftiv!n=drabgah@h69-128-47-245.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388786 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-22-245.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :Xiin!n=X@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust781.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-198-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :randomity!i=mu@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :ineiros!n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :mtve!n=mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249388787 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390109 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p57B187B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390908 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249390908 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249390908 0 :evenant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249390908 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249390954 0 :olegfink!n=olegfink@rain.ifmo.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390979 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390979 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390979 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249390979 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391340 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1249391340 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot < 1249391376 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391376 0 :evenant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391376 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391376 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391411 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391411 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391411 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391411 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391653 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391653 0 :evenant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391653 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391653 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391764 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391764 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391764 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391764 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391775 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391775 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391804 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391804 0 :evenant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391804 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391804 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249391808 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391818 0 :nescience!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249391825 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249392117 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-233.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249393142 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249394934 0 :nescience!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394934 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394934 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394935 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394935 0 :Dewio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394935 0 :Robdgreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394935 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394936 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394936 0 :Xiin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394936 0 :randomity!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394936 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394937 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394937 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394937 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394938 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394938 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :olegfink!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394939 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394940 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394940 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394940 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394940 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394941 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394942 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249394943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1249396043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1249396116 0 :lifthrasiir!n=lifthras@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396116 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396116 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@81.49.247.184 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396116 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396116 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-066-254.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396118 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396154 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@130.233.249.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-116-39.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :mtve!n=mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :ineiros!n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :randomity!i=mu@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-198-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Xiin!n=X@cpc3-brig15-2-0-cust781.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-22-245.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-121.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :mycroftiv!n=drabgah@h69-128-47-245.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :oklopil!n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :nooga!n=nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :upyr[emacs]!n=user@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :Dewio!n=dewi@203-214-111-155.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :olegfink!n=olegfink@rain.ifmo.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :nescience!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-233.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396155 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1249396921 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249396928 0 :evenant!n=myndzi@70-58-88-38.tukw.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249397145 0 :nescience!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249398822 0 :edwardk!i=c72ec6e7@gateway/web/freenode/session JOIN :#esoteric < 1249398855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249398918 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1249398930 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my regexp based C++ code analyzer is done :D < 1249399092 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats < 1249399943 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1249399946 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249400825 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1249401132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shame that it probably fails. < 1249401142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(irregular syntax and all that jazz < 1249401478 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1249401672 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: what can it analyze? < 1249401689 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh < 1249402220 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i doubt it fails if it just does comments, because c++ has a fairly simple lexing < 1249402282 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249402354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Yeah, that'd help a lot. < 1249402497 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.104.244.142 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249402997 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, what is edwardk doing here < 1249403010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Planning on making an esolang based on category-extras? :-P < 1249403029 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or did you decide that it counts as an esolang as-is) < 1249403076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249403097 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249403179 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: actually thats kind of what kata is ;) < 1249403209 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: a little less esoteric than the meat and potatos of this community though ;) < 1249403283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... yet another person here I don't recognise, this channel seems to be expanding massively atm < 1249403289 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Kata have anything online? A quick google only gives a few mentions < 1249403297 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i wander in every few months < 1249403334 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: not yet, you can get some glimmers from the hac phi photos which generally have lots of kata scribbled on the walls, but hrmm. i have an old syntax fragment here somewhere < 1249403357 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deewiant: http://comonad.com/Category.ks-old -- read class as an ML module signature < 1249403361 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta run < 1249403417 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk's been here a few times < 1249403464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I would if I knew any ML < 1249403472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks amusing enough < 1249403479 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately no one was fluent enough in category theory to understand him < 1249403516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yorgeys.smugmug.com/gallery/9039600_Ra9wn/2/601548443_XZNvE#601548455_HVNez-A-LB appears to have some Kata too, yes < 1249404386 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249404396 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249405513 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-166-170-21.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249405839 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1249406380 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1249406383 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't said anything all day < 1249406384 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sez clog < 1249406387 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn netsplits < 1249406452 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyway < 1249406454 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laptops suck < 1249406456 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discuss < 1249406671 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1249406687 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use anything else, but the bigger ones are kinda annoying to carry around < 1249406888 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:46� CESSMASTER has joined #ESOTERIC <<< does the server send the capitalization you use when you join? 8| < 1249406902 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(19:04� Asztal has joined #esoteric) < 1249407367 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without laptops I will never have a LAN party on a train < 1249407436 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wellllllllll < 1249407442 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suck because there isn't one that's good for me :P < 1249409521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249409732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sticks the insane uberbuild in a laptop case
< 1249409748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ignore the inexplicable bending of spacetime involved, please) < 1249409827 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249409908 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: xD < 1249409911 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any context? < 1249409935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Just the current one. < 1249409943 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. :P < 1249409979 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but how long does the battery last and how heavy is it?! < 1249409992 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1249410004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Approximately 5 minutes, and it weighs a few hundred pounds.k < 1249410015 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 5 minutes? That must be a looooot of batteries. < 1249410035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Well, it's an uberbuild. Surely you wouldn't skimp on the UPS? < 1249410047 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a laptop. Yes. Yes I would :P < 1249410076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you don't have titanium legs? < 1249410082 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1249411153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us/ < 1249411198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could've sworn Homo erectus went extinct quite a while ago. < 1249411219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you count Homo floriensus as a subspecies of erectus)) < 1249411687 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@a-20.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1249412181 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1. Race does not exist - a black person is just a white person with a suntan and wooly hair." < 1249412202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1249412217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fnuck? < 1249413006 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I no rite < 1249413018 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: so wtf is that site about < 1249413081 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be pro eugenics, lawl < 1249413152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Context: < 1249413153 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) If you recognize that Negroes carry mostly Homo Erectus traits ( http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us ) while all other races evolved fully into humans, you will love Chimpout.com! WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS, rather NEGRO INFERIORISTS! < 1249413157 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : We at Chimpout.com love the rainbow diversity of humanity and welcome Asians, non-Negroid Hispanics, Semites, Indians, Gays, Whites, Turkics, etc. After all, I am Mexican. Join in the epic battle of hu < 1249413159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) man vs NIIIIGGGGER at Chimpout Forums! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1249413292 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, wow. < 1249413305 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Human vs nigger! < 1249413332 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what channel's that from :D < 1249413332 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, Homo sapiens stultus. < 1249413335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: #haskell < 1249413339 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1249413341 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homo sapiens niggerus. < 1249413357 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: did he just say that and run or was he kicked? < 1249413363 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He got k-lined < 1249413377 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He had a chance to say it twice before that < 1249413430 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/the/ < 1249413430 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I've been "debating" a nigger on youtube who thinks he "be an Izraelite an' sheyit". I've been kicking this nigger's ass throughout the debate (yet in typical nigger fashion, he thinks he's winning lol)" < 1249413430 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger. Nigger, nigger! Nigger. < 1249413430 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a whole new language.\ < 1249413431 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\\$// < 1249413456 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Niggers don't have skin, they have hide because they run around the jungle as naked savage apes." < 1249413506 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[You can trot out all the "magic niggers" such as Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell all you want. They are a rare, rare kind that you niggers ostracized for telling "da troof" about your piece of shit coon-munity.]] < 1249413507 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :… < 1249413513 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic niggers. Coon-munity. < 1249413513 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so cheesy! < 1249413539 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249413564 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249413580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How does a nigger feel knowing that they are the same color as thier shit?" < 1249413580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess this guy doesn't like the Zune. < 1249413920 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's transcended hilarity and entered < 1249413921 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["I don't hate niggers. I just think everyone should own one."- My mom]] < 1249413922 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depressing. < 1249413977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is so very depressing. < 1249414562 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://play.markharpur.com/img/logicfail.JPG < 1249414759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite get what's going on < 1249414797 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a serious note, i think the resurgence of racism as a fashionable intellectual stance proves that the attempt by well-meaning people to censor and regulate speech had totally perverse consequences < 1249414837 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact is, that if you tell kids that some words are not to be said, that some ideas arent allowed to be considered, you give those ideas power and status and appeal < 1249414848 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fucking obvious though < 1249414852 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to a lot of people < 1249414855 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1249414859 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're not talking to such people :P < 1249414864 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats true ;) < 1249414871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: That's one hell of a screenshot, especially since you could just link to the page :-P < 1249414897 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mine < 1249414905 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your paste < 1249414938 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom < 1249414966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249414970 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would definitely like to own a slave, i don't care about color though. < 1249415000 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: as a practical matter, dont worry, you still can, even though such arrangements arent usually called that any more < 1249415007 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249415059 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would probably prefer a consenting slave, so that would be a better way to do it anyway < 1249415067 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you're talking about paying them < 1249415075 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might also be talking about getting a gf < 1249415114 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i was making a vague reference to several things - the most direct reference being the people who get illegal immigrant servants and then terrorize them into slaver with threats of deportation, etc - i could google for some links, there was a notable case recently < 1249415147 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound like something that happens much in finland, then again i wouldn't know if it did. < 1249415195 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens to some extent (i believe) based on most places that have a pool of illegal immigrant labor < 1249415195 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can't really imagine myself threatening anyone < 1249415272 0 :edwardk!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249415363 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm not sure i'd want a slave, i'd probably just prefer having enough money so i could eat out more often. < 1249415371 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> less dishes < 1249415400 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just eat magic < 1249415440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: A "consenting slave" would be either a form of BDSM or an emlpoyee. ;) < 1249415472 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-159-104-109.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1249415508 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the idea that money can replace slavery is actually morally sound and is why the liberal secular humanists need to get their heads out of their butts and start thinking intelligently about complex evolutionary dynamic systems rather than mindlessly thinking money == bad < 1249415527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: ... There's people who think money == bad? < 1249415546 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lots of them, and i talk like those people a lot of the time through sloppy language < 1249415563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always thought that the reasoning was that money implies power, and power is often abused. < 1249415569 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pygbot.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pygbot/trunk/pyGBot/Plugins/games/Mafia.py?view=markup#l_799 < 1249415579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would be the reasoning of *sane* liberal secular humanists. < 1249415587 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes - but a lot of people are very sloppy about making that connection clear, and the association 'money is bad' happens rather than a real analysis of power and self interest < 1249415667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1249415875 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1249416082 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I'm a liberal secular humanist :P < 1249416089 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :…though I've never said money is bad. < 1249416190 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't humanist usually imply secular < 1249416196 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: im a liberal secular humanist too! thats why i want us to stop talking foolishness < 1249416201 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't! < 1249416203 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: Shush you. < 1249416224 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: often, but not necessarily - for instance, you could think gods exist, but they arent important < 1249416254 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Anyway, I don't think non-capitalist systems should be rejected outright, though I haven't seen one that works yet. < 1249416279 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And there are plenty of capitalist systems that should be thrown out: completely "free" markets, for instance.) < 1249416300 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't work, someone will start a business that makes it work! < 1249416317 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth < 1249416318 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free market capitalism works because people always buy the better product! < 1249416348 0 :impomatic!n=John@nat65.mia.three.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249416356 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fundamentally, capitalism is totally broken because the information flows that it is based on are horribly incomplete < 1249416371 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by information flows you mean what exactly? < 1249416373 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1249416375 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1249416377 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi impie < 1249416378 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1249416384 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello cessie < 1249416384 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i live in a town with what used to be 4 beautiful lakes - it now has 4 totally disgusting and usable lakes due to fertilizer runoff and pollution < 1249416408 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a market system based on quantum darwinism < 1249416415 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this happens because the information about and 'value' represented by the lakes doesnt really interact with the capital economy system - that important information is 'missing' < 1249416418 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only perfect transactions get carried towards through the future and the rest are sent to backwater universes < 1249416420 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your radical ideas on information technology as Salvation have occurred to others and been found wanting < 1249416425 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not wanting to pollute the earth is a bit too conservative for my taste < 1249416437 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: you're crazy <3 < 1249416457 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i dont support IT as salvation at all, in fact I think the use of IT in computerized trading may literally destroy the human race through unintended consequences < 1249416470 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth < 1249416471 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this part < 1249416472 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1249416489 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, he never said IT < 1249416492 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: i love how you've stopped preaching to me, and just accepted no sense can enter my head < 1249416496 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249416499 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: i feel a lot better now :D < 1249416500 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: that simply means that we can no longer ignore the fundamental laws of science and the basic physical realities of our condition on earth < 1249416500 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well gosh what does he possibly mean < 1249416522 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodness, you mean quantum field politics < 1249416535 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv vs Pthing; I'll come back in 5 hours < 1249416551 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no, not really - why are you trying to ridicule a concept that i certainly havent even stated fully or explicitly? < 1249416567 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is worth ridiculing every time somebody brings it up < 1249416576 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a trap a lot of people fall into < 1249416578 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: can you just answer me one thing, as a semi-unbiased observer < 1249416581 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brings it up" - you are totally projecting onto me beliefs that i dont have < 1249416587 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: does your market system depend on quantum darwinism < 1249416610 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, it's more a matter of alarm bells < 1249416615 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: zurek's model of how quantum mechanical information is transmitted is incredibly important, but i doubt that it has any direct implications for human-level economics, no < 1249416626 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1249416627 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"economy based on * scienc*" < 1249416632 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* scienc* < 1249416640 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually make it scien* < 1249416657 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares about irl economies < 1249416658 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientology? < 1249416662 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i dont understand the alternative - an economy based on ignorance? < 1249416665 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are so unpure and boring < 1249416668 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what they all are < 1249416670 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*impure < 1249416673 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an economy based on GHOSTS < 1249416677 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else is a religious hope < 1249416693 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange definition of religious < 1249416697 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using it to mean "things i disagree with" < 1249416698 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I consider it more salvation from economics, rather than an actual economic system < 1249416708 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: sorry, i cant tell what you are responding to exactly - somehow are you saying economics is inherently based on ignorance, and trying to improve the quality of information available in our economic system is religion? < 1249416709 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, in a soteriological sense! < 1249416734 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokoko < 1249416735 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Improving the quality, sure, but that doesn't mean destroying it and rebuilding it on scientific bases will achieve that < 1249416741 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, indeed, that it cannot be achieved any other way < 1249416755 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except from setting the whole world on fire and bringing in New Rational Economics < 1249416769 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll go wash the dishes. that's how impure and boring economy talk is! -> < 1249416781 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: im just looking at real-world problems - namely the fact that i have been economically impoverished by the loss of value caused by the destruction of the lakes in my town < 1249416799 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so what's the real-world solution < 1249416805 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happened because the value represented by the lakes - a real thing even to the most conservative free marketeer - that value was not integrated into the economic activites that took place < 1249416821 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human beings dump fertilizer and crap on their lawns, make golf courses - and those create real costs, and loss of wealth < 1249416832 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying we need to get MORE and BETTER information into the system < 1249416833 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes. but what's the real-world solution < 1249416848 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: you seem obsessed with the real world < 1249416848 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: set the world on fire and bring in New Rational Economics! < 1249416851 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may i point you to this topic < 1249416854 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, a good idea! < 1249416883 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: anyway, i do have specific ideas for how to bring more information flow into our economic system, but i dunno if anyone really wants any more monologue from me < 1249416891 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I do so < 1249416925 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sure :) i 100% agree that this is an incredibly hard topic and that there is no silver bullet, and people who think that the world sucks just because mean people are mean, are clueless < 1249416949 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however i dont think that means we cant make huge improvements to the mechanisms of decision making and resource allocation < 1249416959 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liiiike < 1249416969 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: sorry man this takes a bit for me to try to establish the concepts < 1249416980 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are expect a 1 sentence solution, i dont have that < 1249416997 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, the people with one sentence solution are the Worst People < 1249417005 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so often it just boils down to like < 1249417012 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Computer Will Tell Everyone What To Do. < 1249417017 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very sad to see < 1249417017 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've always wanted an oppertunity to say a pretentious comment, < 1249417018 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, i do know that the basis of our existence is that we are fragile clumps of carbon compounds existing in a very delicate equilibrium on a single planet, and all the evidence indicates that this is only a 'semistable' equilibrium < 1249417033 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*opportunity < 1249417034 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an < 1249417034 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1249417038 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\nd/d/ < 1249417041 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone will jump to rebut it < 1249417042 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'll sit here < 1249417044 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being pretentious < 1249417046 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no, i am absolutely opposed to the idea of computer-run economies, and i think high speed financial comptuerized trading is highly destructive of a sane economic principles < 1249417047 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having successfully trollaxed < 1249417050 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that in mind < 1249417062 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." < 1249417065 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—Albert Einstein < 1249417087 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well man, that's not really the same thing < 1249417099 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the chain of reasoning that defines 'value' as 'that which a living being needs to sustain its life, and that which it subjectively chooses to pursue' is sensible as a starting place < 1249417101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mycroftiv: btw you realise that you cannot stop people using computers to do it?) < 1249417111 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computers applied to high finance just make it easier for the bankers to make their pretend dollars < 1249417119 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they did it fine plenty of times in the past without them < 1249417135 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: i cant stop almost any of the bad things that happen in the world, i can just try to do what i can in the world i am in connection with < 1249417150 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: "pretend" dollars? < 1249417157 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, pretend dollars. < 1249417169 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyway - its clear that our most important stock of 'value' is the planet earth we live on - if it goes away, we all get REAL POOR REAL FAST < 1249417201 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: right guess they're like fake dollars < 1249417203 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monopoly money. < 1249417217 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: you are overlooking the possibility of space colonisation! < 1249417224 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heaven forbid < 1249417227 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so purely for 100% rational self-interested free-market reasons, it makes sense for people to construct a system of economic values that includes metrics based on the planet earth, and try to put as much information as possible from thsoe realities into the system < 1249417240 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: not at all - im just discouraged about its practicality based on the current scientific research and state of the art technologies < 1249417241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: How possible do you think it is that it's already happened? < 1249417241 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except when it doesn't < 1249417250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I.e. it hasn't yet so it doesn't count.) < 1249417274 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: there was a time when i thought space travel and exploration meant we didnt need to worry too much about the planet, but a careful study of the facts has convinced me im totally wrong about that < 1249417284 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant! Come quick! < 1249417286 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i *was* totally wrong < 1249417286 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What is it John? < 1249417293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've found a way to cure ails. < 1249417300 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's impossible John, only praying can cure ailments. < 1249417305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1249417306 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's not! It's worked every time! < 1249417306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1249417311 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Whatever. < 1249417313 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THREE DAYS EARLIER < 1249417326 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But what about the prospect of this… "medicine"? < 1249417333 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How possible do you think it is that it's already happened? < 1249417337 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the worst parable ever < 1249417342 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: My analogies are Deewiant-quality. < 1249417346 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Non sequitur < 1249417356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it does happen 3 days from now, fine < 1249417359 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Turn your head and squint your eyes a little. < 1249417362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But given that it hasn't happened < 1249417368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that it's not very likely that it's going to happen < 1249417373 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In 3 days) < 1249417373 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: have i convinced you yet that i am a serious student of economics and social systems and science and i am legitimately trying to address difficult issues, not just spewing ideological dogma/doctrine i read somewhere else? < 1249417386 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's what you think. < 1249417388 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, oh sure, the alarm bells are disabled < 1249417388 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not worth incorporating it into current plans < 1249417395 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have a fucking space rocket. < 1249417401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Well sure, that's why I asked you about what you think :-P < 1249417422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( Deewiant) ehird_: How possible do ***you*** think it is that it's already happened? < 1249417426 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Emphasis added) < 1249417441 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Your sentence rivals "Has anyone ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" in confusability. :P < 1249417444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you have a space rocket, then fine < 1249417446 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just disagree that you can really get it into people's self-interest that they need to become greens < 1249417450 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: thanks very much. i also think its possible to evolve to an economic system that makes use of more and better information without actually having to blow the world up < 1249417477 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without blowing up a little of the world, anyway < 1249417483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: I just wanted to use "possible" since you used "possibility" < 1249417486 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: well, its a very deep issue. i mean, if you believe that there is a God who takes care of the world for us and we dont have to, obviously you dont go along with any of this. < 1249417495 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I do not believe that. < 1249417513 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you disagree with me, you're religious. < 1249417518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I couldn't say "How likely do you think that it's already happened" < 1249417526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I guess doesn't help much, looking at it now < 1249417530 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i usually boil down all economics and politics to 'we have to persuade people to be secular in their decision making at least, and even if people want to cling to religious belief, they cant make it the basis of societal decision making and expect to prosper" < 1249417533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So meh < 1249417540 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1249417542 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This. < 1249417544 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a problem. < 1249417567 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i see it as the base problem - i think most people - even most 'secular' people - dont actually accept or understand the idea of rationalism and the scientific method < 1249417580 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And well they shouldn't. < 1249417589 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a lot of people who 'believe in science' like its a fucking religion, and think something is 100% true 'because science says so' and dont understand about models and revision of theories, etc < 1249417604 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even scientists don't. < 1249417641 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat? < 1249417643 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you sincerely look at the history of science and think "There goes an enlightened portion of the human race, rational and aware of the scientific method" < 1249417660 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, believing in the scientific method doesnt mean believing scientists are any different than any other human beings < 1249417671 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sure < 1249417672 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Einstein just threw rocks at a wall and published it. < 1249417673 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trufax. < 1249417676 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying that. < 1249417679 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying < 1249417687 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you say the problem is that most people *aren't* like this < 1249417696 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now this is, to me, quite a religious sentiment. < 1249417704 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea of producing a code too rigorous for anyone to follow. < 1249417728 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not moral, so unlike the ethical codes of religion, when holy men fail to follow it, people do not shout at them and call them hypocrites < 1249417749 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is no more achievable for all that. < 1249417750 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The scientific method is impossible to follow because I said so, therefore science = religion. < 1249417751 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1249417756 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually , i think the idea of holding your ideas as theories, and trying to test and revise them vs. the evidence - i think that *is* a moral issue < 1249417756 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1249417761 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, yes! < 1249417765 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what makes it so exciting < 1249417772 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *make* it a moral issue < 1249417785 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you then, as is quite reasonable, apply it backwards < 1249417791 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does this make *everyone*? < 1249417810 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless < 1249417831 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's a terribly good comparison < 1249417842 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You group "religion" together as though you can even do that < 1249417872 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249417877 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.104.244.142 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249417877 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1249417878 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1249417884 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use abstractions and generalizations constantly - theres no such thing as a 'human', theres just an organized lump of carbon doing stuff, the idea of a 'human' is still a generalization/abstraction that isnt '100% true' < 1249417898 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but so what < 1249417911 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say the problem is twofold < 1249417946 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) Your conception of "religion" is too high-level, especially if you put it into parallel with something you call "the scientific method" < 1249417961 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a') especially when you ascribe an *ethical* quality to it < 1249417963 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals < 1249417975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is one of the most absurdly meta discussions regarding religion I've seen in quite some time. < 1249418006 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) You think that the application of the scientific method *to* human society will come out of the individuals following it. < 1249418028 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b') The group of people who have used the scientific method most -- scientists -- show no real sign of this, though < 1249418055 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i think you are wrong in those assertions. 1st, the evidence shows that people DO bring their politics into line with their personal beliefs. need i point at theocratic societies? < 1249418082 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that supposed to follow, because I'm afraid I don't. < 1249418084 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and secondly, scientists are no saints, the evidence shows that clearly - but neither do i see many scientists who are active advocates of the most negative and damaging ideas < 1249418093 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: your statement 'b' < 1249418102 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see! < 1249418107 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but that's the thing. < 1249418109 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emergence < 1249418124 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could not derive Iran from first principles and the Koran < 1249418164 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither do i think first principles or scientific evidence are sufficient to structure a society < 1249418171 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else, then < 1249418178 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not deny/denigrate the role of free human choice and emotion and 'whatever the hell we want to do' < 1249418217 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's a gross caricature to consider that everyone living in a theocracy is very similar < 1249418225 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just saying: currently, the organization of power and the principles our society is based on are still *mostly* religious in origin, i think - partly replaced now with a practical system of capital economy that is useful, but still missing a lot of information flows < 1249418238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:32] mycroftiv: im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals < 1249418238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for secular huh < 1249418239 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use the word "religion" again < 1249418261 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm still not sure what you mean by it < 1249418285 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ < 1249418295 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249418299 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously? :| < 1249418301 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a simple example, but it seems pretty clear to me < 1249418308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249418310 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: yes! the historical record on this is far from obscure < 1249418316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv is pissed because he can't show off his genitals :D < 1249418323 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This really < 1249418327 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just illustrates my point < 1249418327 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: they are beautiful and perfect, and squirrels worship them < 1249418332 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can't blame "religion" < 1249418335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: "Squirrels" < 1249418350 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because here it seems to me you are ascribing all norms you don't care for as being due to "religion" < 1249418382 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: um, not at all - but laws that are made to preserve 'morality' are so clearly religious in origin, as a clear matter of historical fact, that im confused what you are claiming < 1249418399 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is clear about it? < 1249418430 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that a huge amount of law and societal structure created in the past, and still being created today, is motivated by individuals attempting to bring the world into accordance with their religious beliefs < 1249418433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: do you accept that someone can be pro-indecent-exposure-laws without being religious? < 1249418437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, you're an idiot. < 1249418441 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: of course < 1249418444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1249418462 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, that sentence works exactly the same if you remove the word "religious" from it < 1249418466 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why do you put it in? < 1249418493 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: because the people who 'made the laws' put the word in there themselves, and its very important to them! < 1249418513 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you denying that there are still millions of people saying "we need to make laws to enforce the bible/koran/whatever' ?? < 1249418513 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put the word in? < 1249418545 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I am not denying that, I am just confused at the, well, the single minded focus you put on this. < 1249418545 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need to link to some websites saying "we need to make this illegal/keep this illegal/ because of religious text A/B/C ?' < 1249418549 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"religious beliefs" is a subset of "beliefs" < 1249418552 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1249418579 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not easy - I'd say impossible, to talk about beliefs that are clearly *not* religious < 1249418587 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, purely "religious" ideas < 1249418593 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just not a good term < 1249418594 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: oh i absolutely agree - as a amtter of ontology, i think all knowledge is 'one' < 1249418597 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then < 1249418600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, it's possible to believe that a certain scientific theory will turn out to be correct < 1249418602 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you *behave* like it isn't? < 1249418604 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, fine, i am perfectly happy to eliminate the term 'religion' from my discoures < 1249418613 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so where were we < 1249418614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking rationally and coming to a conclusion being impossible since there isn't any evidence either way < 1249418618 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you rephrase: < 1249418619 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could state *everything* i just said in equivalent form without focusing on that word or tem at all < 1249418622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet i wouldn't call these hypotheses religious. < 1249418632 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless < 1249418641 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: ok, happy to restate < 1249418644 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please do so! < 1249418655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no? < 1249418663 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes! < 1249418673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Yes what? < 1249418675 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the truth of statements that contradict their own sensory experience, surely the idea... < 1249418678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No! < 1249418683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: MAYBE! < 1249418689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Nothing < 1249418691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: there's a difference < 1249418696 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i just wanted to make the lines the same length < 1249418701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: If you're told how the world works, you don't have to think. < 1249418708 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, can you? < 1249418710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telling them to be scientific doesn't work. They have to collate evidence. < 1249418711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think. < 1249418712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a conclusion. < 1249418718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not nearly dogmatic enough to instill in that way. < 1249418757 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: if you want i could be picking on 'superstition and the occult' - people who believe in esp, flying saucers, etc - instead of the 'religious' - or i could use lots of other terms < 1249418767 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im really sorry if something that isnt my central point - religion - seemed like it. < 1249418785 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound like a very good argument if you can replace it so glibly < 1249418818 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since if you're trying to show me that your position has *at least parity* with this other position < 1249418820 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i was using 'religion' as an easy antonym to the idea of progressively revising your ideas on the basis of experience < 1249418825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. < 1249418828 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very lazy < 1249418834 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And poorly founded < 1249418850 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: sorry, it takes an encyclopedia to make even the statement 'water is wet' well founded by your standards < 1249418873 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is inherently imprecise - im doing the best i can to communicate < 1249418885 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I can persuade a billion people that Our Lady was assumed bodily into heaven, then surely I can persuade them to believe I can fly to Mars and back < 1249418904 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better, persuade them that they *can* fly < 1249418908 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats very plausible, whip up a few miracles, sure < 1249418917 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because miracles don't work like that. < 1249418918 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the transcendal meditation people think indeed that they can fly! < 1249418922 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure!" < 1249418928 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I said is a good argument < 1249418930 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with one problem < 1249418936 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont even understand what you are arguing against now, other than simply trying to contradict anything i say < 1249418939 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might be able to convince that many people they can fly < 1249418943 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But will it make them fly? < 1249418947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Pavitra goes to that transcendental meditation "university" thing, iirc. < 1249418952 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second point! < 1249418954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: have you seen the video? < 1249418957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they hop around on their butts < 1249418960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while dramatic music plays < 1249418962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hilarious < 1249418968 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're using "religion" as the Big Thing that Makes Things Possible here < 1249418972 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: are you saying that even if you can convince people to 'try' to be rational, they will fail? thats a very good point, if thats what you are making < 1249418985 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's part of it < 1249418987 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but listen < 1249418997 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, religion, rather than just being a helpful variable for your arguments < 1249418998 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i said im happy to abandont the word 'religion' and switch to the term 'absence of belief in rational methods of observation and extrapolation/deduction' < 1249419006 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes well listen < 1249419025 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who don't... what whole noun phrase < 1249419030 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't doing it just to be perverse < 1249419031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's all shut up and watch some people hop around on their butts < 1249419032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 < 1249419048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay? < 1249419050 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks fun < 1249419084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and YOU TOO can fly with a personal mantra for $2,000! < 1249419088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contact your local guru! < 1249419091 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People *before* you have tried to instill ethical systems into people < 1249419159 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the things that is grouped into religion is the whole idea of helping people to become better people < 1249419197 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, actually getting people to sit down, actually sit down and think about what they have done that is bad is only a *part* of it < 1249419206 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all the good religions have some form of it < 1249419210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pointless gaiz < 1249419221 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is one of the tragic confusions that people assume that morality is equivalent and can only be found in a non-rational belief system < 1249419224 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is your greater information deal < 1249419248 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it works, the reason why it comes up everywhere is because it works < 1249419255 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not the only thing, boy isn't it < 1249419283 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: and as a matter of fact, if i seem like i talk like some kind of 'opponent' of religion, that is simply me trying to situation my discourse somewhere - as it happens, i also have long essays on hindiusm, christianity, and what the ideas of sin and salvation mean < 1249419284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut the fuck up guys! < 1249419288 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think about it, why do these people even have to sit down and think about their sins -- well, it's because they already done them, and the hope is that they won't be as bad in the future < 1249419290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've said like 10 things 50 times < 1249419305 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, good, then you're familiar with it < 1249419314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you both. < 1249419335 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that it is, as ehird says, this is not a new idea < 1249419342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did i say that < 1249419348 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you've said like 10 things 50 times < 1249419352 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEREFORE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY NEW < 1249419354 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma < 1249419369 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to think that's irrational < 1249419372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so basically you say religion is fucking up society and think rationalism is great < 1249419376 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation < 1249419378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have your big boatload of personal irrational beliefs < 1249419384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no rational or scientific basis < 1249419390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure do feel like listening to you! < 1249419390 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently! < 1249419400 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, you guys are totally misunderstanding < 1249419410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55] mycroftiv: Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma < 1249419411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:56] mycroftiv: and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation < 1249419413 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that i enjoy religious symbols and practices, and believe they can be 'translated' into meaningful terms < 1249419420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude, you believe in reincarnation < 1249419422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not symbolism < 1249419423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or metaphor < 1249419425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's being reincarnated. < 1249419426 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does not mean that i think we should make krishna and vishnu the basis for our economy < 1249419434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is incidentally amusingly meaningless) < 1249419437 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are, in fact, demonstrating the main reason why it doesn't work < 1249419441 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compartmentalisation < 1249419447 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no, i dont compartmentalize at all < 1249419447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how mycroftiv was all < 1249419453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ohh people twist politics to their beliefs" < 1249419454 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You sure about that? < 1249419456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then was all < 1249419461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HARE KRISHNA REINCARNATION" < 1249419500 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the whole idea of rebirth a particularly abhorrent one < 1249419509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even make any fucking sense < 1249419512 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is absolutely no contradiction between enjoying religion as a system of symbols and finding ways to map that symbol system onto reality in meaningful ways < 1249419514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you lose all your memories? < 1249419517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how are you you old self? < 1249419520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*your < 1249419520 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and believing in rational decision making about public policy < 1249419534 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, sure, but then why say "I believe in reincarnation" < 1249419535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, that's a copout < 1249419537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't map < 1249419539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being reincarnated < 1249419541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to physical reality < 1249419542 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "I think reincarnation is a neat idea" < 1249419548 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: because im a materialist, and i believe in the law of conservation of energy < 1249419551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1249419556 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: enter < 1249419557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not < 1249419558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space bar < 1249419564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: your mom isn't either but i still use her. < 1249419573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: what you just said is akin to the quantum mysticism bullshit < 1249419574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point stands. < 1249419579 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why say "I believe in trying to escape the wheel of karma" < 1249419580 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, not at all < 1249419596 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that is a tremendously odious idea to me < 1249419604 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: because i think that is a shorthand, symbolic way of communicating the idea 'if someone hits me, i might get mad and go hit someone else - but i shouldnt' < 1249419615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv < 1249419616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv < 1249419618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what karma is. < 1249419619 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1249419634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the westernised concept of karma < 1249419650 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: honestly, you dont understand what im saying, and you arent trying to. thats ok, this is still interesting, but all communication requires a sympathetic effort on the part of the listener < 1249419656 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I am listening. < 1249419659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://shii.org/knows/Karma < 1249419682 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you are making very poor usage of symbolism < 1249419699 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be taking powerful symbols and stripping them of much of it < 1249419720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolism is where you say things mean vague and unspecified other things so that you can avoid admitting that you mean the actual thing < 1249419738 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncharitable, it's more a matter of association! < 1249419740 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1249419741 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard. < 1249419744 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1249419746 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1249419747 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue < 1249419753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[21:02] mycroftiv: ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard. < 1249419754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed that < 1249419760 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the assocations of the idea of "karmic rebirth" < 1249419762 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are WAY < 1249419762 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAY < 1249419763 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAY < 1249419766 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TREMENDOUSLY WAY MORE < 1249419770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Language is symbolic therefore escaping the wheel of karma is being nice" < 1249419773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense! < 1249419775 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than "gee i think we should be nice to people what do you think about that" < 1249419798 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People do the same to Jesus, reduce his whole ministry to "gee, just be nice!" < 1249419805 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is an insult, really < 1249419810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be nice! And stone adulterers. < 1249419813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also gays. < 1249419816 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there is no way to communicate without oversimplifications. i speak too many words as it is, and despite this, it is always easy to pick them apart. < 1249419823 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, you idiot, you're doing it now, ehird < 1249419830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: It was a joke, foo. < 1249419832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Þou win'ſt þe converſation. < 1249419849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: 'Tis called “ſarcaſm”. < 1249419851 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could work very very hard at trying to add 50,000 footnotes to every sentence i write, trying to show the 'context' in which the symbols should be interpreted, etc etc < 1249419851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I only win the conversation if you read my message in old english! < 1249419854 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suck you < 1249419863 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, sure, that's what symbols are for < 1249419867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone knows that the passages where he tells you to throw rocks at adulterers are just symbolic, anyway. < 1249419868 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people implicitly understand the context < 1249419869 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1249419873 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you REMOVE EVERYTHING < 1249419874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're symbolic for throwing *stones* at adulterers. < 1249419878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh! < 1249419893 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just say that you're treating karma as just a way to talk about being nice < 1249419900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: If other people don't understand you, < 1249419900 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get a kind of symbolic *vacuum* < 1249419902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is YOUR failing < 1249419906 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no, im not, if you want me to be more extensive about karma, lets go for it < 1249419910 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please do! < 1249419929 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I see people do this to religion and it makes me RAEG < 1249419935 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, since you guys have seized on this particular issue, lets dig into 'karma' and how to use the word meaningfully in a context where you want to overlap both the religious and the scientific symbol-mappings of the world < 1249419956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please let's not < 1249419966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not in the mood for religious bs atm < 1249419968 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make up your minds < 1249419970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: It's a bit more correct to say Jesus' ministry was "let's be nice to people for a change" than to say the same of karma. At least with Jesus' ministry, that was at least a major principle... ;) < 1249419983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I must be reading the bible all wrong. < 1249419993 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, ehird's mind isn't mind to make up < 1249419995 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have mine < 1249420000 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm p. sure I want to talk about it < 1249420005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Everyone who disagrees with you is a hivemind. Trufax. < 1249420025 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i am being polite, the truth is YOUR MIND HASN'T GROWN IN YET < 1249420032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey. < 1249420033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I said Jesus' ministry specifically, because, well. Doesn't work so well with the *rest* of that book. ;) < 1249420034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was joking. < 1249420037 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get it on your 18th birthday and that's why the law is as it is < 1249420038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking from the perspective of mycroftiv. < 1249420046 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU TOLD A DEEP TRUTH < 1249420051 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT < 1249420063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: Confirm that you're joking, right? < 1249420081 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can say~~~~~ < 1249420093 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm mostly just stalling for time until mycroftiv says something about karma < 1249420121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stalling's better than the result I think. < 1249420133 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :krsna to arjuna: "not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection. Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature" < 1249420141 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment" < 1249420158 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is on the topic of karma < 1249420165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone wanna volunteer to tell me when mycroftiv stops talking about bs? < 1249420175 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what would you like me to talk about? < 1249420180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249420183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something along the lines of not that. :P < 1249420194 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: just ask, and i will speak only of that which you prefer < 1249420198 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creepy < 1249420220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: The molecular structure of the byproducts of salmon scales. < 1249420231 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, face it. Your arguments are much weirder than that of Christian apologists. < 1249420269 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: honestly, i dont think i even got to make any arguments, all that really happened was the inability to make any statements without semantic conflicts and objections. < 1249420301 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont believe a single 'idea' that i have was successfully communicated, and im sure its my fault for poor communication < 1249420312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Because the statements you made made negative sense. < 1249420314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just no sense, negative sense. < 1249420314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd help if your ideas were less crazy. :P < 1249420316 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: as i said, its my fault for poor communication < 1249420334 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the face of this < 1249420344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fairly sure that no communication could make me believe in the westernised form of karma. < 1249420348 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any hope for a more perfect information flow to Save Our Dollars? < 1249420350 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you recall, my original idea was "it is possible to create an economic system that wont destroy the lakes in the town i live in, and i think for that to happen, people need to use rational decision making mechanisms more." < 1249420366 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if you can't get across these ideas < 1249420367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So did you formulate this "theory" just because you liked those lakes or something? < 1249420368 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: so i fail to see how that particular proposition is really very crazy or contains 'negative sense', but ah well. < 1249420370 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what hope is there for anything else < 1249420373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I did not say negative sense. < 1249420379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please stop equating Pthing, pikhq and me. < 1249420380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is very offensive. < 1249420396 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sorry i didnt mean the 'negative sense' comment to be implied as coming from you! < 1249420403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1249420404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: You're such an asshole most of the time that you don't get to say "x is very offensive" < 1249420411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: <3 u 2 < 1249420419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: And as you went on, your statements made me less confused about what you meant. < 1249420434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your initial idea was reasonable, and could be an interesting point of discussion. < 1249420440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got confusing with explanation. < 1249420457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: s/less/more/ < 1249420468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Kthx. < 1249420472 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i agree, and my sense of that is that it becomes very difficult to keep a consistent meaning of terms when you cant establish a shared set of meanings in the conversation < 1249420486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Undoubtedly. < 1249420498 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1249420535 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i try to 'accept' other peoples definitions, and then make statements using *their* terms - to try to 'translate' from my inner representation to whatever language they are speaking, ideologically. its not easy and it makes me seem very inconsistent, because i want to find common terms to communicate with people using any ideology < 1249420622 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive noticed however that the very intelligent people that i most want to communicate with usually react like Pthing - something about what im saying 'smells bad' - too much overlap with cranks and flakes < 1249420643 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of unfair < 1249420658 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call a nation of a billion souls with thousands of years of history "cranks and flakes" < 1249420659 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i apologize, it wasnt meant as criticism of you - just of my own communication habits < 1249420677 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?? < 1249420691 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying i talk like a damn lunatic, like the fucking TIMECUBE guy < 1249420698 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1249420703 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, you just come across as like < 1249420709 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using big symbols for little reasons < 1249420713 0 :M0ny!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-38-136.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249420777 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: ive honestly lost track of where we were before getting (from my perspective) totally off-based by my admittedly sloppy use of 'karma' as an example, was there any thread that was interesting and worth picking up? < 1249420826 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ddddoubtful < 1249420900 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: If you disagree with me, you're religious. <<< reversing implications is a deadly sin < 1249420914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh i didn't < 1249421148 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? < 1249421168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many < 1249421198 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? < 1249421240 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ <<< i'm with you on this one; except i guess i'm more in the direction of sex cult < 1249421241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many < 1249421429 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think the way to find them is by studying pure math, along the analogy of turing machines yielding the procedural/state machine paradigm, church's lambda calculus leading to functional languages, etc? < 1249421540 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is the task/application motivated approach, as in how simula was created and led to OO, more likely to provide us with new toolsets? maybe thats an entirely false dichotomy - i guess i was just throwing it out to stimulate discussion < 1249421543 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. <<< when it comes to subjects like this, you could s/#esoteric/a conversation/ < 1249421550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: true :P < 1249421559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: dunno. just try shit :P < 1249421573 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing < 1249421604 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and due to acquiring new evidence of course, not just getting trolled < 1249421659 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: btw your ideas about a truly persistent OS with unified handling of the data objects etc - i think its absolutely great and would honestly like to help work on such a project, whenever you have it officially rolling < 1249421767 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1249421768 0 :MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-233.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1249421776 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249421793 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 <<< greatest video ever < 1249421800 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1249421929 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: then how are you you old self? <<< same soul? < 1249421997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil < 1249422000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no such thing as a soul < 1249422003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: thanks < 1249422010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i would like to start working on it soon < 1249422027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame that it's only practical to do it on x86_64 < 1249422059 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, as a practical matter - despite the desire to support esoteric platforms - theres really nothing so wrong about that < 1249422065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249422065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Why only on x86_64? < 1249422076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's what i have and it's what everyone else has < 1249422083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aside from that being the most common platform) < 1249422097 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249422103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, so that's about it. < 1249422106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay; that works. < 1249422153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Anyway, it's wrong because it means I have to code according to it, and it really sucks. :) < 1249422280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, the best computers are all based on it, so what can you do. < 1249422320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how to handle partitioning in such a system; i.e. "SSD for OS, HD for media". Rich types, I guess. < 1249422340 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, there is another approach available! you could create an OS more along the lines of a self-contained platform that abstracts away from the host os/hardware - like Inferno as an example, or (in a lesser way) something like java or smalltalk itself < 1249422349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't think it's worth bothering supporting multiple media persistence because dammit, there's a 1TB SSD for $2k and an 80GB SSD for $250 < 1249422358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDs will be dead long before this is worth using < 1249422387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: that kinda sucks for using forth at the low level though < 1249422397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it benefits so much from knowing the hardware wel < 1249422399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/l/ < 1249422432 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i agree, i was just offering it as a possibile option because hardware support is such a pain < 1249422438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249422457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully things like graphics cards don't really matter for a looooong time < 1249422471 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably know a lot of the plan9 stuff has gone/is going in the direction of trying to free ride on the linux kernel to manage the hardware, and tons of developmnet oses take a similar strategy < 1249422472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bios sucks though < 1249422477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would love to build it on openfirmware or something < 1249422487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but afaik the OLPC XO-1 is the only x86 with openfirmware < 1249422494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah i dislike that < 1249422505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you take away one of plan 9's main advantage < 1249422508 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: uhh i didn't <<< mycroftiv said a religious guy probably wouldn't agree, maybe you weren't responding to that in particular, or maybe you considered context as well, i just like to see reversed implications and be annoyed by them. < 1249422509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unified system architecture < 1249422516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: kay :P < 1249422542 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sorta dislike it but the fact is that human time and energy and resources are limited, and you want to put your time where it does the most good - and if you dont have a large team of devs with hardware skills, hardware can just be a real barrier < 1249422608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if I wanted to compromise, I'd build it on unix < 1249422609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/!/ < 1249422613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, I should stop making errors. < 1249422617 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? <<< yes. < 1249422653 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? <<< i have tons of vague ideas i can't explain! < 1249422672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: but really, building this on top of unix would result in… wait for it… Squeak. < 1249422686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do NOT want anything to result in squeak < 1249422687 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: any referent for the ideas, or what existing stuff acts to 'trigger' them, make you say 'what if...' < 1249422688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/!/ (grr) < 1249422739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: For context, note that oklopil made a language based on lists of negative nesting (<> is 0, <> is 1, etc) and NOPs. < 1249422740 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: makes sense, do you have a plan to get started? target a VM specification, or a particular given 'generic' hardware spec? < 1249422767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the regular thing: support the standard x86_64/BIOS stuff, because differing drivers won't be neccessary until much later. < 1249422851 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing <<< i'm not saying you can't change your mind about things due to conversations, yes, but what i said isn't even that much of an oversimplication, people simply suck at having conversations ime. < 1249422903 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are often great at talking though, that's why stuff like books and lectures work, because people are usually actually listening, unlike when having conversations. then again i am a simplificator, and a crazy person, so what do i know. < 1249422922 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: sure, i really do try to 'swear off' the debates about politics/religion/ethics and keep my time and energy focused on translating my ideas into 'real things' like software and music and essays < 1249422954 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously though the resolution to 'not get dragged into trying to explain my private mapping of the universe' is something i constantly fail though < 1249422978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. < 1249422984 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there is no such thing as a soul <<< believing in the soul is, ime, one of the simplest religious beliefs you can obtain, because of all the consciousness. but i was mostly joking. < 1249423013 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you have a crazy unifying theory, you are just smart and you keep it limited to a single domain you are expert in < 1249423071 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249423106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: yeah but i was rebutting it as a religious belief < 1249423111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :justifying it with another isn't terribly convincing < 1249423130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'm really not certain I'd call myself an expert. < 1249423147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my last OS failed because i couldn't fuckin' get interrupts set up < 1249423175 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. <<< my crazy unifying theory is mostly ignoring the problem. < 1249423178 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, i honestly have no way at this point of really assessing your expertise, but im happy to give you the benefit of the doubt - and based on the satement you just said 'my last os failed' - that certainly qualities as 'expert' given that most people dont have a 'last os' < 1249423193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: it's all relative, though < 1249423205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making some code that can be booted by grub isn't exactly an odd thing for this channel < 1249423259 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of mine just finished writing the network card drivers for his os < 1249423272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grub is incidentally not allowed in my os < 1249423273 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, but the point i was making wasnt about how great you are, but just that you certainly have at least the expertise required for your ideas (your 'crazy theory' of how an os should work) to be meaningful < 1249423274 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same guy couldn't solve the int(n/m) problem, grrr < 1249423277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has c, you see < 1249423289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i'd call that knowledge, not expertise < 1249423296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i generally reserve that for... well... experts < 1249423309 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can tell this is a damn language channel, you guys are fucking crazy for precise definitions\ < 1249423349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome < 1249423363 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant string 5 words together in a sequence without subjecting at least one of them to a highly metaphorical and nonstandard use < 1249423390 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: some of the ideas i can explain are my graph definition language (which is more of a useless DSL), and Ef, which was based on taking fixed points of every function < 1249423391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not my problem :P < 1249423433 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graph thing, graphica, is my personal favorite; but Ef is, in some sense, a completely new paradigm < 1249423453 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: those both sound very interesting, im not sure how you build a language from 'fixed points of every function' - but thats my ignorance, id love to learn, got any references to check out? < 1249423470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: don't worry, it's not your ignorance < 1249423480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody understands oklopil's languages for the first few days < 1249423487 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: the basic idea is pattern matching on problems, then imperatively changing them. < 1249423494 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperatively as in statefully < 1249423505 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: ok, that i think i get < 1249423514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nothing like that fwiw < 1249423583 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1249423590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vitamins! < 1249423609 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what's not what? :P < 1249423630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ef < 1249423655 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the canonical sort, sort={x:_;y:_;?xy=>[x y]=[y x]}; not sure what sort that is exactly, you find pairs that should be the other way around, and swap them < 1249423681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like bubblesort. < 1249423703 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i see whats going on with statement, looks neat < 1249423703 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, except it's nondeterministic < 1249423719 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sensible compilation would be bubblesort, or something along those lines < 1249423740 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: basically a normal form of executing that on a list is taken < 1249423745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could also quite reasonably become a sorting network. :P < 1249423761 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, very parallelizable! < 1249423773 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait sorting network right < 1249423775 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1249423780 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda misunderstood you there. < 1249423818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: ¿ < 1249423827 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that? < 1249423845 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1249423848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accidentally upside-down ? < 1249423880 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: [x y]=[y x] has to do with ef's completely insane value/reference semantics, which have nothing to do with the fixed point and pattern matching stuff < 1249423895 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to reinvent everything from scratch when i make a new language < 1249423920 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except a few things i consider fundamental enough to use without rethinking, like lists < 1249423956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: replace lists with sorting networks that sort things to that list's structure < 1249423962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and encode the values in this structure < 1249424046 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm almost incompletely not unsure what you mean < 1249424094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: basically, the idea is that everything is a sorting network < 1249424101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, if we have a list 1:2:3:[] < 1249424109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we encode the 1 in the way it resorts < 1249424118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then encode 2:3:[], "wrapping" each element of its encoding < 1249424119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show that it's the tail < 1249424125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursively, then using a sentinel sorting pattern for [] < 1249424133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus, to operate on lists we make special lists ourselves for them < 1249424136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and run it on them < 1249424142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and check the results < 1249424148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, everything's a sorting network that sorts other sorting networks < 1249424196 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway mycroftiv there's a lot of unused esolang material in mathematics already, many fun models of computation haven't really gotten famous enough to have been esolangified. < 1249424209 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, thats what i was asking < 1249424217 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if theres a lot of available formalisms that dont have languages matches to them < 1249424259 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know of that many, but this is what an esolang professor told me at uni < 1249424285 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance matrix multiplication is tc < 1249424310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang professor? < 1249424333 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he does computation model stuff, so yeah :P < 1249424341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1249424342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck awesome < 1249424346 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tilings mostly < 1249424365 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: basically you can do tm's by walking up and down a real number's digits < 1249424374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you hated reals < 1249424388 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did? well i don't :P < 1249424390 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have. < 1249424408 0 :M0ny!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1249424416 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he had some results about reversibility of certain ca's < 1249424435 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like can i have your autograph < 1249424441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: you said they're too numbery < 1249424443 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not out loud but anyway < 1249424459 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well yeah i hate *instances* of real numbers :P < 1249424475 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i enjoy the structure of the field though. < 1249424502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249424575 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that a lolling matter < 1249424592 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty fucking sexy field < 1249424643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hating instances of it < 1249424650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway as we all know reals are continued fractions. < 1249424654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND NOTHING ELSE < 1249424657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything else is satan < 1249424668 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we are speaking about the real numbers - transfinite math, do we have any computer languages currently that can work correctly with the transfinite ordinals and other stuff like that from set theory? < 1249424734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1249424735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom < 1249424755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: That depends: are the operations you want on them computable? < 1249424771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, then we have plenty. The usage of them may just be very hard. < 1249424774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1249424837 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: questions about the computability of operations on infinite sets are sadly over my head, im at the level of understanding the continuum hypothesis and the diagonal slash argument and the concept of a power set and all that, but my curiousity stems largely from wishing there was computer software i could work with that would teach me more < 1249424875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably Mathematica. < 1249424892 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the diagonal slash arg do you mean the proof that |reals| > |ints| < 1249424899 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish i had access to that software, ever. thats what drove me to become a free software user and developer < 1249424922 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :download it < 1249424927 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: that is one of the most famous applications of it, but of course 'diagonal' type arguments show up everywhere, godel as well for instance, but i suspect you know all this better than i do < 1249425034 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know much math < 1249425060 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just know one diagonalization argument < 1249425104 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: yeah, the reals > ints is probably the most famous one, and the direct reference i was referring to. < 1249425133 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the form of that argument is amazingly powerful and has become very much a 'standard tool' of proof in a lot of areas < 1249425197 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, i really don't know much about anything but basic algebra, and cs-related < 1249425203 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff < 1249425244 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway diagonalization is a pretty simple proof by contradiction < 1249425249 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p57B18FE4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1249425259 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's interesting about power sets exactly? < 1249425275 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is how the chain of transfinite numbers is generated < 1249425286 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1249425318 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't think it's a good starting place for expanding your mathematical brain < 1249425373 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i wouldnt call it a starting place, ive been studying math for a long time now even though im not particularly good at it really < 1249425387 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since actually understanding all the math in modern physics is important to me, i keep working at it < 1249425403 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. physics is boring < 1249425417 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i think physics is 100% as interesting as the universe itself ;D < 1249425424 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex is interesting because physics FEELS GOOD < 1249425428 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and makes babies < 1249425431 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is pretty boring :P < 1249425439 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, sex is fun < 1249425468 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm more interested in pure, simplified universes < 1249425515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baby universes < 1249425517 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: well, for all we know, at the lowest level, our universe might a rule 110 machine...we dont know what the little elves turning the cranks are up to in that regard quite yet < 1249425519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWI = sex < 1249425527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Nice try, Wolfram. < 1249425577 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: wolfram didnt invent those ideas, people have been speculating that the universe is just a computation since newton < 1249425586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rule 110". < 1249425620 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* simple and cool example, back when i was talking about this stuff in the late 80s, i would have said 'the universe is like the mandelbrot set' < 1249425718 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mandelbrot set is much less discrete computation -y < 1249425724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get the impression that you're like 40 < 1249425728 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean as a side note < 1249425733 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah, almost < 1249425746 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you didn't get that impression before thsi? < 1249425748 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*this < 1249425752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: well i did it was just forming < 1249425759 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopil: yes, actually the question of discrete vs fractal/continuous is really important when trying to make a model that is more meaningful than just metaphor < 1249425765 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which btw i dont think anyone has actually done!) < 1249425779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess when intelligence's brain cells die they excrete crazy :D < 1249425819 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i used to be much crazier, i decided quite awhile ago i had to try to work much more within the pure science/math domain to get anywhere < 1249425832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh i am GLAD you didn't come here then < 1249425843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz you're pushing new boundaries in #esoteric craziness :P < 1249425897 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't find him all that crazy, maybe i'm too crazy to notice it < 1249425906 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, i still havent managed to syncrhonize myself with the prevailing discourse, i was early figuring the 'lets slag on religion thing' was an easy way of expressing certain ideas, but that was a mistake, i got called on it rightly < 1249425945 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then i end up trying to prove that im not a hater-of-religion, which ends up making me seem very incosistent suddenly - even though i think religious symbolism and ritual is orthogonal to public economic policy, which i thought was teh topic < 1249425947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't really interested in the anti-religion stuff because i pretty much exhausted all the realisations with regards to it like a year ago < 1249425970 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah, that was my mistake in how i was situating my statements - i thought the kids today were all into that dawkins-hitchens perspective < 1249425983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hitchens is kind of a dick. < 1249425988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dawkin's ok though. < 1249425995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dawkins', whatever < 1249426004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't think there's many kids in here really < 1249426018 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you actually want to *convince* people, i think they are just preaching to the choir and alienating the people they are trying to persuade, actually < 1249426030 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i meant that purely as a joke use of language < 1249426036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1249426052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been an atheist since like 9 and an agnostic since forever < 1249426054 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are tons of kids here < 1249426058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although really, I basically just never considered that god might exist < 1249426065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't ever exposed to the concept, really < 1249426076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still found The God Delusion a good book < 1249426086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helped explain to me why religion was so prevalent < 1249426094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dawkins has plenty of non-anti-religion books anyway < 1249426094 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: one of the reasons i can be frustrating to communicate with is that i believe language is a map and i try to figure out what map the person i am talking to is using, and then speak using its landmarks < 1249426114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unweaving the Rainbow is still basically anti-supersitition, but it's mainly about how beauty can come out of analysis and how coincidences really do exist < 1249426134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: you can't subvert biases by using different words unless you're really effective at it imo < 1249426193 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah i produce the opposite results sometimes, because of the inconsistency issue and trying to communicate with multiple people at once < 1249426242 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if im trying to talk to someone who believes in stuff like esp and ufos and that i think is 'confused', i can sound like im failing to actually maintain my beliefs because im not contradicting ideas that i think are 'confused' (== wrong) < 1249426250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't argue with cranks < 1249426252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waste of time < 1249426264 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love cranks, i study thenm < 1249426269 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i work very, very hard on not being one < 1249426277 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why hard science and math are where i try to situate myself now < 1249426290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum darwinism man :) < 1249426294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah yeah I know) < 1249426299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just love hatin' on that name) < 1249426334 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ...yeah it makes me grit my teeth too, the thing is zurek keeps trying to come up with a name since he realizes people just dont understand the significance, even if they agree with his work. < 1249426344 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his old term was 'the existential interpretation' which meant nothing < 1249426360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important < 1249426365 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'decoherence' is still the most used term for the basics of his approach, but hes advanced a long way past the simple... < 1249426395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the more "correct"/"possible" universes traveling forwards in the dimension of time, right? < 1249426397 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: that was my guess as to the psychology of his changing his terminology, please dont confuse my random bs with what the man actually says < 1249426399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the less suitable ones not being able to < 1249426417 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to see a wacky theory, see my Oracularity that got digested (no, it's not a serious theory) < 1249426429 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: its specifically based on the actual math of the quantum equations that 'everyone' agrees with, and actually studying how information is transmitted between systems through time. < 1249426431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call it something like "spatial decoherence" since it's moving forwards in time to get a chance at space. It's not a terribly meaningful name, but it sounds okay. < 1249426464 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea is that 'classical' type information, where the ball bounces off the wall, is far more likely to sucessfully transmit than the information that matches the ball going through the wall < 1249426474 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(im oversimplifying deliberately to the pop sci level) < 1249426481 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not because i think you need it, just to speak quickly) < 1249426481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop sci level is a good way to get a good name though < 1249426516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what you're saying I basically gather that it's: more classically probable information has a better chance of moving forwards in time to affect space < 1249426527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the less classical outcomes will lag behind, so to speak < 1249426531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, wildly analogising < 1249426537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that I'd still call it spacial decoherence < 1249426541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spatial < 1249426549 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost exactly correct - in your statement, you should substitute 'other quantum systems' though for the word 'space' < 1249426551 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important <<< iirc the cross product was considered like the final salvation by its inventor < 1249426570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cross product isn't exactly a theory :P < 1249426588 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, that was more of a random piece of funny information. < 1249426604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yes but that gives quantum decoherence. < 1249426605 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think zurek believes (correctly) that his work has mostly resolved the 'quantum measurement problem' and paradoxes like schrodinger's cat. his work is real science, its hard math, it can be tested by experiment also. so his opinion i dont think is relevant to evaluating it. < 1249426610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is taken, I gather :D < 1249426618 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: zurek's work IS quantum decoherence!@ < 1249426625 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is one of the guys who is responsible for a huge amount of that work! < 1249426628 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tahts HIM! < 1249426630 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1249426632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I don't accept your claim that quantum darwinism objectively true < 1249426642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and plenty of people accept decoherence but don't, afaik, subscribe to this interpretation < 1249426648 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it can be objectively tested and verified with standard mathematical analysis and experimentation < 1249426649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it only makes sense to separate them < 1249426652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so you keep saying < 1249426664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people disagree with you, so we don't simply call it "the truth" < 1249426671 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, "QD" is the name zurek gives to his more recent work that extends the decoherent paradigm < 1249426688 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sorry if i was seeming to state things non-carefully, let me translate the language: < 1249426756 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"within the current dominant paradigm casually referred to as western science, the principles of quantum mechanics are widely accepted. zurek is a mainstream practitioner who's work is mostly done via pure mathematical manipulation, so his results are widely accepted as valid. it is only a model, and more study and data are needed, because it is a relatively new model." < 1249426775 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did all of that make it to channel or was it too long? < 1249426807 0 :oklopil!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all made < 1249426810 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i personally think that a lot of the information in a careful statement like that can 'go without saying' between people who mutually understand the principles of the scientific method < 1249426848 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i apologize if i seem to make statements that should be made carefully about models, predictions, and 'best current explanation of data' - and state them in the language of fact, etc. < 1249426867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never heard of quantum darwinism being accepted, though < 1249426876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its wikipedia article is small and you're the first i've heard of it < 1249426876 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1249426881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all your links are from arxiv < 1249426883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just saying < 1249426887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem like something every physicist accepts < 1249426898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i've seen most of them go for copenhagen < 1249426973 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, i dunno, i think you are mistaken on this. i think if you actually talked to the mainstream university tenured scientists who are expert on this issue, they would have the highest praise for zurek's work, and say that he has made amazing factual contributions to our understanding < 1249426992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just skeptical < 1249426994 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249427007 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his papers are widely cited, and the people who are actually spending tons of money on quantum computing are basing their engineering efforts on the theorems he has been part of proving < 1249427099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the d-wave blog mostly makes reference to MWI < 1249427102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not qd < 1249427106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least what i've read < 1249427114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and d-wave seem to be the main name in actually making quantum computers < 1249427151 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the work of zurek's that is directly related to quantum computing is not QD, its his work on quantum computation/informatino theory and entropy etc < 1249427183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmm < 1249427184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-Wave has been heavily criticized by some scientists in the quantum computing field. According to Scott Aaronson, a Computer Science professor at MIT who specializes in the theory of quantum computing, D-Wave's demonstration did not prove anything about the workings of the computer. He claimed a useful quantum computer would require a huge breakthrough in physics, which has not been published or shared with the physics community.[1] Dr. Aaronson has mainta < 1249427185 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the fact i link stuff from arxiv doesnt mean that those arent the preprints of papers that were published in major journals with peer review < 1249427213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umesh Vazirani, a professor at UC Berkeley and one of the founders of quantum complexity theory, made the following criticism:[2] < 1249427213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell ph < 1249427214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wim van Dam, a professor at UC Santa Barbara, summarized the current scientific community consensus in the journal Nature:[12] < 1249427215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"At the moment it is impossible to say if D-Wave's quantum computer is intrinsically equivalent to a classical computer or not. So until more is known about their error rates, caveat emptor is the least one can say." < 1249427218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok forget d-wave < 1249427245 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was gonna question the relevance of the 'd-wave blog' for anything, but since i havent read it, i dont have an opinion :) < 1249427267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: d-wave seemed reputable enough to me < 1249427274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw a lot of sane-seeming pepole say "yay" about it < 1249427278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've got in newspapers < 1249427280 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said i have zero opinion! ive never read i! :) < 1249427285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the blog seemed sincere and honest < 1249427287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: yeah just saying < 1249427297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't reading some random kid's blog about his supposedly quantum computers :P < 1249427312 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every computer is quantum < 1249427317 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's made of particles and shit < 1249427340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurp durp < 1249427356 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: anyway, copenhagen isnt an explanation of how the classical world results from the quantum - its a model that says 'we dont have to worry about it' - every physicist agrees that if you accept quantum theory as real, you have to explain ultimately (in ways copenhagen doesnt) the entire system of experimenter/appartus/subject as quantum < 1249427386 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mainstream model of that currently is definitely the decoherent paradigm < 1249427405 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of which zurek has been a leading researcher, and QD represents the 'state of the art' of his research on this topic < 1249427414 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it may well be totally wrong < 1249427427 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if quantum mechanics isnt 'really fundamental' we can obviously throw it right out < 1249427447 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if further experiments on the transition between the quantum and the classical scale contradict its predictions < 1249427608 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QD is nothing more than a certain model that seems to do well at showing that we dont actually need 'new physics' to explain the appearance of the 'classical world' - it actually *does* emerge properly, just from the current known quantum equations < 1249427670 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1249427758 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i think the fact that its not famous or well known yet (or may ever be) is because it isnt challenging or overturning anything - its basically saying that the current equations we have work even better than we had thought! and for working physicists the 'measurement problem' has never been a really huge concern anyway, since experiments DO work as a practical matter < 1249427848 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the value of zurek's work is actually that it powerfully *rebuts* people who want to find some kind of 'magic' in quantum theory they can use to make telepathy or other such pseudoscience plausible < 1249427990 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his work strongly suggests that all of the 'weird' behaviors of quantum mechanics are unlikely to create any macro-scale 'loopholes' that we can exploit. < 1249428244 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking purely for myself, from my reading of zurek's work, i think it actually implies that we arent likely to get a good quantum computer anytime soon, because the orthogonal basis states it depends on are just so hard to maintain < 1249428510 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1249429236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1249429306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: well there are quantum computers, just near-0k ones < 1249429312 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't mean price :D < 1249429324 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, its the scaling up to many qubits thats hard < 1249429325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a few qubits aren't exactly useful < 1249429327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249429341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: it sort of depresses me that quantum physics DOESN'T let us do freaky stuff :) < 1249429351 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats where the 'nature doesnt like to maintain superpositions' problem kicks in - i have a theory that theres probably a catch 22 at work < 1249429396 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of energy required to create the conditions to maintain the necessary number of qubits could probably do 'just as much' computation on their own if pumped into old fashioned chips rather than maintaining a coherent apparatus for the quantum superpositions < 1249429417 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might turn out to be a kind of implication of the 2nd law < 1249429456 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah i remember reading pop sci stuff about 'tachyons that go back in time' and being very disappointed i couldnt buy a tachyon telephone and that they didnt actually exist anyway < 1249429475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1249429571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my personal pet physics-wish is that we can send information across everett branches < 1249429584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := inter-universe communication < 1249429662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's not really any evidence or theories at all on that one < 1249429664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i know < 1249429687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course quantum darwinism probably says all the fun universe's genes will have gone extinct :D < 1249429773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: amirite < 1249429836 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: its hard to say...if you could create an environment (such as quantum computing tries to) where stuff wasnt constantly transmitting information back and forth, then maybe the evolution of the state would be different < 1249429850 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@65.215.113.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1249429879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cross-everett-branch communication only works in the purest form of MWI < 1249429885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., each quantum event truly does split the universe in two < 1249429894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are literal, existing, multiple universes < 1249429898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that all survive < 1249429978 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id have to look at some mathematics, but how does transmitting information between everett branches avoid violations of the laws of thermodynamics? < 1249430011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i know it doesn't. < 1249430024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy never decreasing is a statistical law anyway isn't it < 1249430030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the probabability of entropy decreasing is 0 < 1249430035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean it's impossible < 1249430071 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: aha! well, this is very interesting...this goes to the heart of the issues - because a lot of zurek's work is devoted to showing that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the direct consequence of the conservation laws that apply to quantum interactions < 1249430098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but zurek's work doesn't even have literal multiple universes as i understand it < 1249430106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have to ignore it to even consider this communication < 1249430140 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: well, i think thats debatable, because 'multiple universes' is mostly a semantic/philosophical level interpretation of what sets of equations 'mean' more than a mathematical statement itself in this case < 1249430160 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you could say in many ways that zurek's work is 'all about' studying the multiple universes and exactly how/if they can interact perhaps < 1249430173 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that zurek himself places his work in the tradition of that school of interpretation < 1249430181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1249430186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be cool, anyway < 1249430186 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(working from the MWI idea of 'taking the equations seriously and literally') < 1249430191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if it violates thermodynamics < 1249430196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want my extra energy, bitch < 1249430221 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1249430246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i'd find it incredibly depressing if entropy can truly never decrease < 1249430258 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : it can decrease < 1249430259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kind of like the universe and life and such. < 1249430268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: Yes, it just has probability 0, etc, se ↑↑↑ < 1249430269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*see < 1249430281 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not 0. < 1249430282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: Anyway, what interpretation do you subscribe to? I'm sure I asked before. < 1249430283 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just low < 1249430294 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : I'm an instrumentalist < 1249430305 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, I consider physics as a tool < 1249430320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: That's not a quantum interpretation :P < 1249430320 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't care too much about the metaphysical truth behind < 1249430330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean Copenhagen/MWI/blah balh blah. < 1249430332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blah < 1249430332 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's a way to differentiate the two, why not < 1249430364 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1249430367 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level < 1249430371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tooooo late < 1249430371 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! < 1249430376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He'll be back. < 1249430377 0 :Slereah!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-22-245.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1249430380 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:| < 1249430380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Told you so. < 1249430383 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level < 1249430383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:59] mycroftiv: Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level < 1249430384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:59] ehird: Tooooo late < 1249430384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:59] mycroftiv: bah! < 1249430384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:59] ehird: He'll be back. < 1249430386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snap < 1249430388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^2/[2/ < 1249430393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You guys all understand regexps, right? :P)