00:00:00 and it's almost certainly possible to stop it doing that 00:00:03 Tcl only pollutes (n). 00:00:10 pikhq: yes, and 'man x' searches (n) 00:00:13 well, cpan puts everything in section 3perl 00:00:21 but as ehird says, that's not particularly useful 00:00:24 * dear_my_inner_ra decides to learn how to read analog clocks by setting his Mac's menubar clock to it 00:00:31 dear_my_inner_ra: What, would you prefer for there not to be man pages of it? 00:00:32 ehird: use a decimal clock 00:00:39 ais523: nothx :P 00:00:39 I implemented a decimal clock applet for windows ages ago 00:00:44 incidentally, it's about 0 right now 00:00:47 over here 00:00:53 ais523: maybe i'll try swatch time 00:01:05 decimal time's like that but with two more decimal places 00:01:10 it's about @0 00:01:14 and local time, rather than UTC+1 for no apparent reason 00:01:34 ais523: erm, swatch time is utc 00:01:39 no, it's UTC+1 00:01:42 thus it being @0 around now 00:01:46 oh 00:01:50 well that's due to where it's based 00:01:52 but i don't really acre 00:01:53 care 00:01:53 yes 00:01:57 one hour makes little difference 00:02:03 also, since 1 beat = 1 minute and 26.4 seconds, I don't feel the need for more precision 00:02:11 otoh, it only works if you're near that timezone 00:02:25 10 = about 15 minutes, which is more generally useful 00:02:28 otherwise, saying "oh, it's @200, happy midnight" is very unnatural 00:02:31 as I tend to think in units of about 15 minutes 00:02:40 i tend to micromanage time. 00:02:46 yes, well it's @0, which is only midnight because we're in summertime atm 00:02:57 about @1 or @2 now, I suppose 00:03:04 yes 00:03:07 also, saying "happy midnight" is unnatural no matter what the circumstances 00:03:12 grr, if you have the analog clock in os x, you can't get the digital time in the menu 00:03:23 ais523: true, the term usually used is "happy today" 00:03:34 ehird: are you trolling? 00:03:35 despite that not making any sense 00:03:42 ais523: no, that's actually what I and friends say. 00:03:47 it's a habit 00:03:54 over here I mostly hear "it's tomorrow" 00:04:02 but that makes even less sense! 00:04:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please only change one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:04:08 "happy today" might just be saying, hey, it's today, that's cool 00:04:16 so it makes marginally more sense 00:04:53 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:05:02 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:05:07 whoops 00:05:14 *ahem* 00:07:29 Are you a Gmail user, or do you have friends who are? Do you resent the "Sponsored Link" advertisements that come up next to the incoming mail? Now you and your friends can do something about it! 00:07:29 The solution is simple, when sending an email to a gmail user include a sentence or two that mentions catastrophic events or tragedies. Google does not use humans to read your email, only computers. These computers search for keywords that trigger the advertisements, however, if they hapen to find a catastrophic event or tragedy Google errs on the side of good taste and removes the ads altogether. 00:07:29 You may want to make mention of what you are doing so the recipient is not alarmed by your sudden Tourette's-like outburst. You can link to this site by way of explanation if need be. 00:07:32 http://homepage.mac.com/joester5/art/gmail.html 00:07:56 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: PS. Suicide death 9/11 murder http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:08:04 The link to our logs is considered sensitive by gmail. True fact. 00:08:17 -!- ais523 has set topic: ehird was banned from this topic due to violating the topic rules. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:08:59 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: ehird ~~ BANNED ~~ AVATAR! ~~ This COOKIE tastes like VIOLENCE! ~~ Posts: 34,383 ~~ Joined: Jan 2001 ~~ Signature: check out my great forum: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:09:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un topic. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:09:12 Forums! They're like crap but worse. 00:09:27 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: Ceci n'est pas valid French. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:09:52 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:09:55 ok, I like that topic 00:10:12 -!- Halph has joined. 00:10:12 magritte would be proud 00:10:18 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 00:10:44 too clever by halph 00:27:13 oerjan: so's your mom 00:30:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("no apparent reason"). 00:38:36 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has quit. 01:01:53 * pikhq is vaguely in the mood to fiddle with little-used OSes 01:02:14 If MachTen were gratis, I'd be fiddling with that. 01:27:27 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:27:27 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 02:33:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:49:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:54:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:21:18 -!- augur has joined. 03:27:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:45:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:52:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:10:21 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:13:39 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:20:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:35:21 -!- immibis has joined. 04:43:01 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:43:11 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:13:22 -!- centrinia has joined. 05:18:53 -!- Pthing has joined. 06:01:11 -!- centrinia has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:21:55 -!- coppro has joined. 06:22:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 06:58:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:06:12 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:09:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Client Quit). 11:23:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:33:32 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:46:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:51:10 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:23:09 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:24:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:37:19 -!- ehird has joined. 12:44:13 Zoop. 12:52:58 happy mailman mailing list reminders day 12:57:09 uh oh, guys 12:57:15 I've found precedent that we're using the wrong name for that 12:57:36 http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/437 came before http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/1226, so we must assume the former is the original (especially since that's Hixie's kind of joke) 12:57:42 so it should be 12:57:50 happy mailman mailing list memberships reminders day 12:57:50 and 12:57:58 happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminders day 12:58:04 AMMLMRD 13:00:06 "More fucking particles, really, science? You know what? 13:00:06 Fuck you. I'm not even trying to understand it, now." 13:00:06 — http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons 13:15:31 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:40:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/ <-- Delety 13:42:09 Can you protect a non-existant page from being created, with mediawiki? 13:43:40 yes 13:44:12 That talk page could probably make use of it 13:56:48 Slereah_: you can? 13:57:22 I know that wikis have a lot of non-existant pages blocked from creation 13:59:44 wiki admins: please delete this bullshit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute 13:59:51 not even funny any more 13:59:59 completely tired of shit like that 14:01:20 E 14:01:21 S 14:01:22 M 14:01:23 E 14:01:37 huh http://4mhz.de/ 14:01:38 (21 Jul 2009) Some days ago, I received a voucher copy of c't extra Programmieren 02/09, a special issue of c't (a German IT magazine). They published Brainfuck Developer on DVD. In the article, there's even a screenshot ;) It's nice to see the work you've done recognized. 14:02:05 So they stole his program? :o 14:04:02 Copying digital information isn't stealing 14:05:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/More ← needs more has-been-deletedness 14:05:17 I'm no MPAA people, you know what I 14:05:19 mean! 14:05:30 Slereah_: no, because stealing implies a bad thing 14:05:47 I'm mostly asking if they asked him first 14:05:56 Otherwise, it is a bad thing. 14:06:59 Copying digital information is not a bad thing. 14:07:41 I want to read that article now 14:07:50 I want to read YOUR MOM 14:08:08 <_> 14:11:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:14:06 FireFly: <<_Xo 14:39:05 Not if they make profit from it :o 14:45:47 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:46:25 Slereah_: you're wrong :p 14:47:08 But being wrong is right 14:47:17 So then you're good again 14:47:22 Which is the evilest thing of all! 14:48:07 Wow. 14:50:25 http://sites.google.com/site/yacoset/Home/physics-for-programmers 14:51:07 [[Now this is a story all about how my viewpoint flipped-turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you how I became a fan of our friend X M L. 14:51:08 In North Mopac Boulevard, castin rays, on the PC is where I spent most of my days. Chillin out, haxin, refraxin all cool, I was shootin some photons through a polybool. Then a couple of rays who were up to no good, started causing errors in their neighborhood. I wrote one little script and Maya got scared, she said "You're usin up all the memory IRIX can spare!"]] 14:51:14 — http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/96dg0/nobody_who_uses_xml_knows_what_they_are_doing/c0bky64 14:52:49 the idea of generalizing physics to the actual generation of code isnt actually that farfetched in some ways, i think the connections between information theory, physics, and computational systems are well established now 14:53:34 mycroftiv: i think you overestimate the seriousness 14:54:15 ehird: oh, i just like looking for the elements of truth that are what makes humor funny, i think - because these principles are actually pretty factual 14:54:35 for instance: 14:54:44 4. A gas will always expand to fill the volume of its container 14:54:45 All possible race conditions shall happen at some point in the life of a program. 14:55:02 that is basically 'spot on' - because both are entirely about the stochastic exploration of a state space 14:55:02 mycroftiv: you're kooky :D 14:55:06 but fun 14:56:05 ehird: be careful, i might get started on W.H. Zurek and the implications of his work, and then everyone will be sorry they asked 14:56:23 but we're not going to ask! 14:56:35 and no, hes not some crank, hes one of the world's most respected theoreticians of quantum physics 14:56:40 you are smart 14:57:26 Your are smart. 14:58:06 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8177285.stm 14:58:08 teehee 14:58:21 mycroftiv: You should talk to Slereah_, he works on the LHC or something. 14:58:25 Maybe you could get him to collide programs. 14:58:27 I wonder what would be my fine 14:58:44 The judge would be like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS 14:59:38 Slereah_: you do fundamental physics work? 14:59:59 Yeah 15:00:05 Well, internship right now 15:00:10 I'm a physics fundamentalist 15:00:10 I'm still doing my master 15:00:25 THOU SHALT HAVE NO ELEMENTARY PARTICLES APART FROM QUARKS 15:01:11 Slereah_: cool, i know its a big field, but have you checked out W.H. Zurek's work on what he calls 'quantum darwinism' - basically a much extended attack on the quantum measurement problem that extends the decoherence paradigm significantly? 15:01:19 No. 15:01:36 xD 15:01:46 its really awesome work, imo, although i have to take a fair amount of the mathematical foundation 'on faith' - but its all peer reviewed and seems very solid, decades of work 15:02:20 i'm a get a fun argument going 15:02:26 Slereah_: Copenhagen or MWI?! 15:02:29 mycroftiv: Copenhagen or MWI?! 15:02:35 *i'ma, of course 15:03:00 ehird: zurek's quantum darwinism, it settles these questions definitively imo - it descends from MWI style thinking but is really quite different 15:03:13 the name itself makes me suspicious. 15:03:15 ehird: want me to summarize? 15:03:26 ehird: yeah i know it sounds like a lame neologism, im not sure he should ahve picked it 15:03:37 you can summarise if you wish 15:03:39 ehird: but it makes sense in a way after the concept is explained 15:03:40 hehehehe 15:04:05 in short, zurek's work is based on very careful and detailed study of how information is transferred between systems at the quantum level 15:04:06 currently, though I'm physicstarded, I'm an MWI-er 15:04:26 mycroftiv: you might want to dumb it down a bit btw :P 15:04:29 for a 'measurement' to happen - for us to perceive the world - information has to be transmitted through a large series of interactions 15:04:32 i am 15:04:38 good 15:04:38 :P 15:05:17 what zurek shows (mostly by pure mathematical manipulation of the fundamental, well tested equations of qed) is that the transmission of information between systems at the quantum level has very definite tendencies 15:05:32 in the case of the famous 'schrodingers cat' experiment, you can summarize it as this: 15:05:36 i love the name of QED 15:05:38 it's so assertive 15:05:41 how can you argue with QED?! 15:06:06 the reason you never see a half-alive, half-dead cat is that there are rules that determine the kind of information that can be successfully transmitted into the future 15:06:16 mycroftiv: Hey, man, don't make assumptions about what I never see. 15:06:35 and that quantum states that are 'nonsensical' simply do not make 'copies' of themselves in the form of transmitting information forward in time 15:06:48 perhaps they 'happen', but that information can never reach our sense perceptions 15:06:54 I'm not seeing how this really relates to MWI like you said 15:07:09 because our perceiving an event in the world means that our particles have become part of an entangled quantum state 15:07:18 ehird: because the idea is that just like in many world interpretation, 'everything happens' 15:07:38 but unlike MWI, zurek has mathematically studied the dynamics of how information moves between the states and how it goes forward in time 15:07:54 so you're saying that everything happens in _one_ universe or sth? 15:07:58 so rather than a 'branching' universe, you have a universe that represents the *fittest* collection of information 15:08:01 ehird: yes! 15:08:02 this isn't really making any sense to me and I don't see how it relates to darwin at all :P 15:08:12 everything happens in our universe - but we only perceive the 'fittest' information 15:08:13 mycroftiv: doesn't occam's razor apply a bit here? 15:08:18 because only that information is of the form to transmit itself into the future 15:08:23 what does zurek achieve that mwi doesn't 15:08:28 as mwi certainly seems simpler 15:08:31 mathematical meaningfulness mostly 15:08:40 he makes many more predictions and statemnts and the analysis is vastly more fine grained 15:08:49 Is zurek compatible with mwi? 15:08:51 ehird: MWI is basically a philosophical idea - zurek's work is really hard math 15:08:54 As in, does it contradict any part of mwi? 15:09:01 mycroftiv: there have been plenty papers published on mwi /shrug 15:09:08 i know that 15:09:16 zurek descends from wheeler's tradition in this 15:09:32 he absolutely bases his work on the same principle, of taking what the actual structure of the quantum equations say 'seriously' 15:09:44 here im gonna linke the massive and awesome summary paper that was in Nature recently, the arxiv version 15:09:48 you can judge for yourself 15:10:00 this represents a summary of decades of well respected, peer reviewed, mainstream work 15:10:06 my brain will probably leak out i'm afraid 15:10:36 http://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.5082 15:11:49 i really think the quality of the work as pure physics/math is superlative, and that the philosophical implications are absolutely staggering 15:12:08 even more so than MWI actually 15:12:28 To bypass these obstacles Bohr [1] followed Alexander 15:12:28 the Great’s example: Rather than try disentangling the 15:12:28 Gordian Knot at the beginning of his conquest, he cut 15:12:28 it. 15:12:28 ↑ am i the only one who hates such crappy analogies? 15:12:35 sigh. 15:12:48 i think that is an excellent analogy, but it is also completely irrelevant 15:12:57 that is pure literary style, nothing to do with the content of the research or its claims 15:13:07 shush you i'm allowed to complain about it if i want :) 15:13:16 hey, i aint quashing no free speech 15:13:30 but the evil cabal of fizzie and lament are. 15:13:34 * mycroftiv summons his black helicopters of physics interpretation censorship 15:13:37 for definitions of are equal to would if they did. 15:16:28 mycroftiv: well i'm sure i'll read that paper sometime in my life… like perhaps when I think it won't totally go over my head. 15:16:30 Yes, I certainly rule the channel with an IRON FIST, no-one can deny that. 15:17:02 fizzie: Every time you talk I quiver in my boots! 15:17:04 I don't even have boots. 15:17:29 On re-reading my second last line, I read it as "boobs". 15:17:35 Freud would have a field day. 15:17:58 ehird: well, the idea that the universe we perceive == the subset of the total of all quantum states that possess information dynamics corresponding to a 'universe that makes sense' is the idea 15:18:15 and Zurek shows imo convincingly this is a simple and strict consequence of the base equations themselves 15:18:38 you seem to be talking about it like it's objective 15:18:43 i believe it is 15:18:45 but i doubt it's that clear-cut, as in a logical consequence 15:19:14 i believe zurek has succeeded in mathematically deriving an information-theoretic fundamental ontology of the universe from the most experimentally well confirmed physical theory we have 15:19:43 so - and i know this is a fucking nuts claim that scientists would back away from - i think science has now solved the class8ic ontological problems of philosophy to a large extent 15:19:46 If it was truly an objective, formal logic consequence, I'd have almost certainly heard about it due to it being huge. 15:20:07 -!- M0ny has joined. 15:20:10 (Litmus test: if you go on about the man oppressing the fundamental nature of the universe now, you're a quack. :P) 15:20:26 ehird: well, the thing is that the quantum measurement problem is not regarded as 'sexy' necessarily by the physics community, string theory has been regarded more as where its at, and cosmological issues 15:20:44 so i think there is a lot of contingent historical circumstance that means the full significance isnt really understood 15:20:52 Seriously? All I've heard about string theory points it to being a fringe theory that no serious physicist believes due to it being undisprovable. 15:20:55 ehird: but zurek is not a quack, study his biography and his positions 15:20:59 ehird: exactly!! 15:21:08 ehird: but that is only a very recent and 'popular' opinion 15:21:17 for most of the past 20 years, string theory was what most people worked on 15:21:21 I suppose. 15:21:23 following andrew witten extensively 15:21:46 It's hard to believe, really. 15:21:50 ehird: and really most working physicists came to believe that the quantum measurement problem was either not important, or already satisfactorily solved 15:21:55 I mean, working on something undisprovable? 15:22:02 Might as well develop a theory of invisible pink unicorns. 15:22:25 and as i say zurek's work is far from obscure, - it is the mainstream of modern work on QED, and not challenged by anyone so far as i know 15:22:42 mycroftiv: Isn't the copenhagen interpretation the standard fare? 15:22:52 That's the impression I've had, at least 15:23:04 not so much any more, the decoherent paradigm really has taken over i think 15:23:10 Hmm. 15:23:26 i think reading at the semi-popular level is likely to convey a somewhat misleading impression 15:24:30 im not a degree- carrying researcher, but ive made a serious effort to move from a 'laymans' understanding to a true technical level and follow the current research directly - and the real state of the community opinion isnt really captured well by the standard summaries of the ideas on quantum measurement 15:25:14 the thing is that people like the 'narrative' of quantum mechanics being all spooky/crazy/not understood 15:25:45 thats still the dominant trope of whatever popular discourse there tends to be, so the fact that a rather technical and detailed analysis of the theory has shown its not actually like that has just not made a huge impression on the world 15:27:21 i mean, the fact is that the average 'educated, intelligent, rational person' is still using a set of conceptual tools that basically encodes the euclidean/newtonian analytic framework 15:27:25 at best! 15:28:42 :P 15:29:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:29:05 hi ais523 15:30:31 hi 15:32:00 ehird: btw, in re: string theory - the motivations of the string theory researchers actually do make a lot of sense fundaemntally, even though a lot of people now think that approach wont really get us anwywhere 15:32:27 our current best physical theories all have the fundamental mathematical fact in common of being strongly related to symmetry groups 15:32:53 theres a very important theorem called noether's theorem that connects symmetries to conservation laws, as a consequence 15:33:08 so, the string theorists idea is to hunt for more symmetries, basically 15:33:22 the mathematics of string theory is amazing, from a group-theoretical symmetry perspective 15:33:35 so that is why it was very appealing as a source for mathematical ideas for physics 15:34:00 in fact, much incredibly important research *has* been done by string theory - but it has turned out to be 'pure math' more than physics 15:34:06 theres nothing wrong with pure math though 15:34:30 but people get irritated when purely theoretical mathematical structures with no discrernable connection to reality start claiming to be the fundamental building blocks of everything ;) 15:34:41 foop doop 15:35:06 am i being tiresome? 15:38:47 what does "making sense" mean 15:39:18 Pthing: mispelled double antonym of 'losing dollars' ? 15:39:41 plausibly, but I doubt the world is quite ready for a theory unifying finance and fundamental physics 15:40:00 Pthing: I'm not sure, I think it makes dollars and sense 15:40:17 mycroftiv: not tiresome, i'm just bored of that subject now ;) 15:40:22 Pthing: actually, i honestly think we are - i think for instance Wolfram and others have good theories about general mathematical rules for complex dynamic systems 15:40:26 well I'm not 15:40:32 ehird: may i interest you in some plan9 from bell labs>? 15:40:39 Yeah well, Wolfram is his own worst enemy in that respect 15:40:43 mycroftiv: i already like plan 9 :P 15:40:58 He doesn't have good theories, he has *expansive* theories 15:41:12 but he tells you they're good enough times 15:41:36 Pthing: hm but he also does real research and publishes stuff and makes tools, does he not? so i dont think it can be said to be purely hot air 15:41:49 Well, the people he *hires* does real research and publishes stuff 15:41:51 Wolfram's theories tend to be rather vague and use brute-forcing to fill in the details 15:42:02 that's quite interesting for small-scale things, but I don't think it scales up 15:42:02 ais523: BUT THE UNIVERSAL 2,3 TURING MACHINE 15:42:06 YOU DID IT, DON'T YOU _BELIEVE_?! 15:42:11 ehird: yes, it was found via brute force 15:42:14 ais523: well, doesnt the universe itself 'brute force' itself a lot? 15:42:20 it's you— er, his— most important result of the CENTURY! 15:42:25 Finding something through brute force isn't the problem 15:42:29 the four colour problem was brute forced 15:42:31 the PROBLEM 15:42:41 mycroftiv: oh, yes; it certainly works in theory, just it tends not to work for really big things because it takes a prohibitively long time 15:42:44 is that Wolfram goes off with the principle of computational bollocks or whatever it was 15:42:54 yes 15:43:04 which is not even philosophically well placed 15:43:11 ((ais523 won the Wolfram Prize for the 2,3 turing machine thingy)) 15:43:18 really 15:43:19 (((to give context to my jokes))) 15:43:23 Pthing: yuh: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ 15:43:42 Pthing: I think it's an attempt to generalise the Church-Turing thesis, possibly doomed to failure because nobody agrees on how to state the original thesis in the first place 15:43:49 yes! 15:43:51 that's what I mean. 15:44:03 It's a very emotionally appealing idea 15:44:14 wow, im seriously star struck to be in the presence of people who do the work that i regard as incredibly importnat 15:44:19 lol 15:44:21 * mycroftiv asks for autograph, seriously 15:44:30 mycroftiv: it's a bit hard over the internet 15:44:33 * mycroftiv IM NOT WORTHIES 15:44:35 ais523: you should become a celebrity 15:44:36 hehe 15:44:42 How about a handjob? 15:44:42 you've got a better claim to fame than paris hilton! 15:44:42 shall I digitally sign a document and send it to you? 15:44:53 haha 15:44:58 digital autographs are the things in the future 15:45:14 I'm interested in 15:45:15 well 15:45:19 I'd *like* to be interested in 15:45:32 but I don't think it's even an actual thing yet 15:46:11 some kind of built-up computational discipline about biological systems 15:46:20 it's part of natural computation, sure 15:46:55 i note that over time this channel gradually transforms from an esolang channel to just plain esoteric 15:47:08 well in the broad sense the discovery of DNA was really just that, wasnt it? 15:47:16 hmm... what sort of thing do you normally write in autographs? 15:47:17 i mean, the mapping of DNA == source code for biology is pretty strict 15:47:22 Yeaahhhh sort of, the whole molecular biology thing 15:47:32 mycroftiv: except that there seems to be lots of side-channel information too 15:47:41 ais523: "Alex Smith", I suppose 15:47:42 But there's no real basis for a theoretical view of it 15:47:44 ais523: use M-x artist-mode 15:47:45 the DNA doesn't encode everything, even though in theory they could 15:47:50 to make it all signature-looking! 15:47:52 it's all either been elucidation of the precise mechanisms 15:47:56 ais523: yeah that kind of generalization is really sloppy, im not claiming that as 'fact', but i think as maps and metaphors go, its amazingly strong 15:48:06 I thought autographs were addressed to someone in particular 15:48:19 ais523: i think that's mostly via implied ownership of the item in question. 15:48:20 and besides, it's the digital sig that would contain my name, just like traditional analog sigs are where you put your name 15:48:38 ooh, I know what I could send 15:48:41 ais523: make a file with 24 lines of 80 spaces, then 15:48:42 and sign that 15:48:42 a digitally signed INTERCAL addition 15:48:45 it's a blank piece of paper 15:48:46 i believe we now know that cells are not so much a single centrally organized thing but in fact a kind of ecosystem all in their own, with independently evolved structures, right? 15:48:54 Well yeah sorta 15:48:56 mycroftiv: trippy 15:49:02 yo dawg i heard you like ecosystems so etc 15:49:04 with a kind of complex flow of information and processes between viruses, dna/rna, mitochondria, etc 15:49:04 You can go dumb with it 15:50:01 -!- Lim has joined. 15:50:14 information theory is obviously fundamental to life just because maintaining low entropy is key to the definition 15:50:23 hello Lim 15:50:29 who/what/where brought you here 15:50:32 /when 15:50:41 hello 15:50:54 I can't see the theory getting going until people start to properly engineer genomes 15:50:59 We're just starting to now 15:51:23 i can speak in french ? 15:51:31 The other problem is that the point of computer science is that it's so general 15:52:01 if i was going to put a bet on where we might get a truly amazing fundamental breakthrough - if we could 'crack the neural code' of whats going on in the brain in an analogous way to our current tracing of genetics... 15:52:02 that the architecture isn't frightfully important, so whether you can do anything on a particularly deep level *specifically* about biological computation is doubtful 15:52:06 Lim: can you? 15:52:10 we might not understand you though 15:52:13 mycroftiv: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1514846 15:52:17 there you go, a digital autograph 15:52:20 Pthing: Engineering genomes has gotten started. 15:52:23 that thing expires in 15 minutes, be sure to save a copy 15:52:24 yes 15:52:27 Lim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images 15:52:30 is what the topic references 15:52:34 not a french channel :P 15:52:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:52:41 hi impomatic 15:52:42 Hi :-) 15:52:52 ok 15:52:54 ais523: thank you! 15:52:56 !translateto Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:52:57 er 15:52:59 !translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:04 !translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:06 I heard about it at USENIX in 2008; there was a freaking genetic programming language they had devised and were using to modify bacteria. 15:53:11 oh 15:53:13 `translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:16 ehird: is that an EgoBot or HackEgo feature? 15:53:18 ;_; 15:53:22 `translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:24 HackEGo isn't here 15:53:24 I had not heard of an actual programming language 15:53:27 darn 15:53:28 which might explain why it isn't working 15:53:30 or what that would imply :| 15:53:32 `join 15:53:37 pity, doesn't work... 15:53:42 Lim: qu'est-ce que vous pensez que cette chaîne était d'environ? 15:53:53 you don't mean the iGEM parts, do you? 15:54:02 ehird: run through an online translator? 15:54:06 ais523: yuhuh :) 15:54:09 je me suis dit qu'on parle d'esoterisme ici 15:54:30 et je suis venu voir 15:54:46 Lim: bizarre ( «ésotériques»), les langages de programmation, en fait. mais nous sommes surtout hors sujet! 15:55:02 ah ok 15:55:17 I think Lim was probably referring to the topic 15:55:17 ici on parle de programmation !! 15:55:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:55:27 Qui a dit que Google Translate ne fonctionne pas? 15:55:28 ais523: agreed 15:55:33 un patois 15:55:34 Lim: :-) 15:55:54 :) 15:56:06 -!- ehird has set topic: This is not valable Anglais. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:43 * ais523 wonders what the second most spoken language is here 15:56:45 ok byr 15:56:53 -!- Lim has left (?). 15:56:54 maybe Korean? there certainly used to be quite a few Koreans here 15:57:00 Finnish. 15:57:03 oh, ofc 15:57:21 Has #esoteric officially switched languages? 15:57:29