00:07:48 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:16:33 -!- jix has joined. 00:23:16 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:44:17 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:53:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:54:12 FDA's revised 2009 food pyramid: http://imgur.com/b1b55.jpg 00:55:10 that would be the RFDA, i assume 00:55:37 wat\ 00:55:44 s/\\$// 00:55:51 reddit food and drugs administration 00:55:53 haha 00:56:15 actually, in response to conservative think-tanks claiming the new chart was too revolutionary and untested, it has been modified: http://imgur.com/QUU57.jpg 00:56:24 * oerjan hasn't got around to reddit today yet 00:56:38 oerjan: you work really modally, don't you? 00:57:17 er, meaning what? 00:57:40 oerjan: you browse your interwebs one site after another in huge binges :D 00:57:42 sort of 00:57:45 i'm still stuck in the iwc forum, which i read only thursdays and sunday 00:57:51 see what I mean? 00:57:55 you have a webternet schedule. 00:58:35 that's actually the exception though. most others i visit once a day, when they update, or when rss tells me 00:58:55 as for binge that is 01:00:21 at least once a day, that is. if i run out of the usual sites i often revisit 01:00:33 and i treat it all far too much like a schedule queue. 01:01:19 I have a webternet schedule. Its contents can be found in /dev/urandom. 01:01:47 oerjan: you use an rss client?! 01:01:51 but you use IE! 01:02:05 yes. it was introduced in IE 7 01:02:08 hmm maybe IE does rss bookmark stuff nowadays. 01:02:09 heh. 01:02:12 Wait, he uses IE? 01:02:14 pikhq: yes 01:02:24 he's an old norwegian curmudgeon 01:02:26 oerjan: IE is why we can't have nice things. 01:02:27 also, will never switch 01:02:31 pikhq: he also uses Hugs. WinHugs. 01:02:38 that also introduced tabs ;D 01:02:46 ehird: Is that still maintained¿ 01:02:48 pikhq: GHC doesn't have a Windows interface, don't you know. :) 01:02:52 Also, Hugs? No. 01:02:54 and i read my email in pine, via putty 01:02:59 Even its creator tells people to use GHC. 01:03:05 WinHugs is also unmaintained. 01:03:38 http://cvs.haskell.org/Hugs/pages/latest.htm ;; latest hugs releases: Nov 2003, Mar 2005, May 2006, September 2006 01:03:47 Nov 2003 is the most recent major release. 01:04:02 oerjan: I am sticking your hard drive in a degaussing coil and destroying your software installation disks and mandating a filter that repeats this process if a Windows executable is discovered on your Internet link. 01:07:27 that sounds very aggressive of you. are you sure you have taken your vitamins? 01:14:03 -!- augur has joined. 01:14:45 let's give oerjan a macintosh with system 7! 01:14:51 (Yeah yeah I'm old-mac geeking shut up.) 01:14:58 Anyway, back to the joke. 01:15:05 It'll be a huge upgrade! 01:15:12 ehird: A/UX. 01:15:29 pikhq: you do know that A/UX basically ran macintosh binaries via an API emulation layer sort of thing right? 01:15:40 ehird: Yes. 01:15:42 still restricted to a fixed memory size etc 01:15:53 But it was also UNIX. 01:16:04 pikhq: Not really. 01:16:08 Only the bottom layer was Unix. 01:16:16 Not one thing on top 01:16:18 s/$/./ 01:16:39 "on top"? Uh. 01:16:50 Yes, on top. 01:17:04 It was basically the Macintosh operating system with hardware interaction replaced with Unix calls. 01:18:03 The A/UX Finder was a native UNIX program. 01:18:39 pikhq: Remember that in the days we're talking about, the Finder WAS the operating system, more or less. 01:19:44 Also, it totally did X. 01:20:01 !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test { f (Test f) } deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 . fix (Test . Just) 01:20:59 pikhq: It did X, yes… you could either boot into X, in which case it was 0% Macintosh, or you could use an application that did X. 01:21:05 !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:21:08 That application simply ran X on top of the Macintosh OS. 01:21:23 It was not integrated in any sense; you could port it to a non-A/UX Macintosh System Software! 01:21:40 pikhq: And that X server had a fixed RAM of, IIRC, 8 megabytes. 01:21:49 Hope you don't run any graphically intensive programs. …like Mozilla… 01:22:02 bah ghc cannot deduce it has all the prerequisites for the instance :( 01:22:32 oerjan: "Test { f (Test f) }"? 01:22:34 The syntax be unvalid. 01:22:36 oh, wat 01:22:37 wait 01:22:39 you changed it 01:22:54 oerjan: data Test f = Test (Test f) might be inferable 01:23:10 but that's not what i want 01:23:22 that's what she said 01:23:24 oh wait... 01:23:39 *now* you remember! 01:23:48 i see it cannot realize f gives a Show 01:24:05 !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show f) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:24:09 it should have been able to add that prerequisite, i think 01:24:22 wrong kind, ehird 01:24:23 !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show (f a)) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:24:25 yeah 01:24:34 01:24] EgoBot: /tmp/input.19244.hs:2:0: 01:24:34 [01:24] EgoBot: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation) 01:24:34 meh 01:24:37 s/^0/[0/ 01:24:42 also => in data do nothing for instances 01:24:53 bah 01:24:57 oerjan: *does? 01:25:21 i took it as plural 01:25:29 ah 01:25:31 =>s, clearly. 01:26:49 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:29:37 !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:30:12 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:30:34 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:30:36 /tmp/input.5190.hs:1:30: cannot parse LANGUAGE pragma 01:30:54 what, only _one_ allowed? 01:31:34 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just) 01:32:09 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . Just) 01:32:12 Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just 01:32:18 wow it worked 01:33:19 painfully, but still 01:33:50 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[])) 01:33:52 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ 01:36:30 oerjan: That's evil. Truly evil. 01:37:07 hm... 01:37:34 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[])) 01:37:55 what the heck? 01:38:18 GregorR-L: for some incomprehensible reason that gave me a DCC listing of the root directory 01:38:54 oh wait 01:38:55 xD 01:38:56 wat 01:39:06 !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances, StandaloneDeriving #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[])) 01:39:09 Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test 01:39:20 oerjan: so what's the point of this again? :D 01:39:25 always another pragma to add :) 01:39:54 oerjan: you should use ghc 01:39:59 it has pragmas up the wazoobutt 01:40:15 ehird: a recursive datatype with flexible constructor? 01:40:27 but whyfort art touh 01:40:37 ehird: GHC has everything. 01:40:40 And a kitchen sink. 01:40:57 not really :P 01:41:14 argh who is that person thingy 01:41:33 ah! yes 01:41:38 BTW, oerjan: WinGHCi. 01:41:39 http://code.google.com/p/winghci/ 01:42:09 yay 01:43:12 oerjan: since I'm kind, have a ghc windows installer link: 01:43:22 oerjan: http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.10.4/ghc-6.10.4-i386-windows.exe 01:43:58 oerjan: then unpack http://winghci.googlecode.com/files/WinGhci-1.0-bin.zip to C:\WinGHC or something, and run Install.exe 01:44:21 then .hs files open in it, and WinGhci.exe is the REPL. 01:44:47 er not C:\WinGHC 01:44:49 C:\WinGhci 01:45:12 maybe later 01:45:18 * oerjan cackles evilly 01:45:19 pikhq: we lost him. 01:45:21 it was a good effort. 01:45:36 oerjan: YOU SHALL DO PENANCE FOR YOUR SINS! 01:45:53 Also, might I recommend installing Cygwin, or Gentoo GNU/Windows, or Debian GNU/Windows? 01:46:10 oerjan: if you open this file, it'll change winhugs to use ghc (which it will install) automatically, with no clicking: http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-3.5.1&os=win&lang=en-US 01:46:23 pikhq: do those latter two exist? 01:46:33 ehird: Yes. 01:46:34 I'm pretty sure the Debian one doesn't 01:46:39 pikhq: googling says no. 01:46:49 Dammit, I could've *sworn* Debian had one. 01:46:49 ehird: nice try 01:46:53 Gentoo does, though. 01:46:55 Neither, in fact. 01:46:56 pikhq: link? 01:47:03 oerjan: Why do you use IE, incidentally? 01:47:04 you must think i am _blind_ too 01:47:13 it came with the computer 01:47:50 ehird: http://debian-interix.net/ and http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/ 01:48:02 oerjan: and why do you further the pain of web designers and developers everywhere instead of briefly installing a browser? :( 01:48:17 Gentoo Prefix is for a variety of UNIXes, including Interix. 01:48:30 Interix doesn't count. 01:48:49 But it's an entire POSIX subsystem! 01:49:03 Which just needs a credible userspace! 01:49:12 I could accept cygwin + a replacement for the WM. 01:49:23 Like, you can get Blackbox for Windows, for instance. 01:49:32 Just make one that uses an X11 window manager, somehow. 01:49:43 (Get it to decorate a fake window of the right size around the Windows window?) 01:49:44 That is significantly harder to do. 01:49:48 Eh. 01:49:58 ReactOS with some patching? 01:50:05 Naw. You can do it with just plain Windows. 01:50:23 You'd be able access all of the Windows stuff seamlessly from "X11", and also run X11 apps just the same 01:50:24 s/$/./ 01:50:32 It'd be cool. 01:50:51 pikhq: OS X/X11 is something I've been considering a while 01:51:10 ehird: That would be pretty awesome. 01:51:15 If you set your background to whatever background you'll use in X11, hide the dock, hide the menu in the Finder and X11 (there's a hack to do this), 01:51:20 and set the X11 to open on startup, 01:51:26 then set X11 to fullscreen with meta keys going to X11, 01:51:40 you'll have a certified Unix with X11, running on the sturdy Quartz system. 01:51:52 Unfortunately, you won't inherit Quartz's PDF base and compositing, but you won't get any graphical glitches. 01:52:01 (unless they're part of X11's logic rather than its hardware interaction). 01:52:07 s/\)\./.)/ 01:52:19 BTW, I discovered something somewhat interesting today: Étoilé. Basically, it intends to be GNUstep minus the suck. 01:52:31 pikhq: Étoilé is based on GNUstep, actually. 01:52:33 (which is to say, it intends to be OS X plus suck minus suck) 01:52:43 ehird: Yes, and it removes the suck. 01:52:50 Nextstep isn't OS X at all. 01:52:51 Thus, GNUstep minus the suck quite literally. 01:52:58 It's very markedly different. 01:53:06 Etoile is kinda cool but ehh 01:53:13 The application set sucks at the moment 01:53:22 And it's built on X11 for backwards compatibility, except you're meant to use all its apps. 01:53:29 (Well, okay, it's built on X11 because gnustep is and it's there.) 01:53:38 Yeah, that's the main reason I've not switched. 01:53:48 (to at least try it out) 01:54:03 But really, they'd best achieve their application-deemphasising goal with their own OS. 01:54:10 It's fundamentally a compromise, but it's a purist compromise, so to speak. 01:54:37 Their Objective-C Smalltalk is nice, though. 01:55:01 I kinda wish they'd at *least* not build it on X. 01:55:26 But, yeah, it totally seems like something that'd be worth doing from the OS on up. 01:55:55 I basically see Unix/X11 as a dead end; you really can't transcend past the systems we have today, because if you try to, you run into its fundamentally exposed implementation details. 01:56:09 It is irritating that writing an OS involves so much stuff. 01:56:18 And, of course, there's always the lure of replacing the hardware. Sigh. 01:56:54 The UNIX *concept* doesn't seem like much of a dead end. 01:57:09 pikhq: It isn't as much so, but Plan 9 ends the line. 01:57:21 Okay, fair enough. 01:57:43 In becoming more flexible, you realise that the idea of a hierarchy (what a stupid structure! so restricted for no reason…) of "files" of bytes is not the natural way to represent pretty much anything. 01:58:06 Not your personal files; hierarchies are an unnatural way to organise things and have a large cognitive overhead. 01:58:25 Not the interfaces; because if they're so great at it, why have C? Why not just have files and a "file FFI", so to speak? 01:58:33 Because an array of bytes isn't directly usable. 01:58:51 Unless you generalise and say that everything is an object, and "files" are just named objects... 01:58:52 But what, you say, of tools? To which I reply, why are tools and functions separate? 01:59:01 pikhq: But, see, a name isn't really the best way to go about it. 01:59:06 That's such a restricted way of doing it. 01:59:10 pikhq: And that still separates memory and disk. 01:59:50 So, you want something truly, radically different. 02:00:27 I'd like to see it. (no, really; there's been like 0 change in operating system design since the 80s) 02:00:35 Yes, I do want something radically different. 02:01:09 Come on, good UI. 02:01:19 My plan is to start just above the BIOS (i.e. the operating system; though my plan makes it a rather vague notion); it's impossible to replace the BIOS in the AMD64 environment and I don't think making my own hardware will be too successful. 02:02:13 The basic critic would probably be "providing things like garbage collection in the OS is bloat and restrictive!", and my reply is that (a) since everything is the operating system, there is no real "bloat" and (b) a unified sewerage system is restrictive, too. 02:04:04 So, one thing you'd be doing is "fuck filesystems"; the hard drive would be nothing more than nonvolatile object store... 02:04:14 pikhq: SSD-optimised, man. :) 02:04:39 pikhq: But anything that stores things on disk is a filesystem. 02:05:24 Well, fine. Screw the idea of "the filesystem is a tree of files". 02:05:31 "With names" 02:06:16 Yes. 02:06:45 Additionally, screw the idea of kernels, more or less. 02:06:58 Also, screw the idea of binary blobs as processes; I want a damn unified object system. 02:07:06 That's significantly harder to do (but vaguely feasible) 02:07:35 Also, screw just about every orthodox notion in GUIs. (Subclause: Obey Fitt's Law vehemently. I *will* make the mouse cool again, dammit.) 02:07:56 Also the Law of Least Surprise? 02:08:22 Raskin had a wonderful thing about that; intuitiveness is meaningless. It means, in common parlance, "familiar". 02:08:42 The goal of a UI should be, when it has been learned, as close to zero cognitive overhead as possible. 02:08:52 The focus should be on the task and nothing else; this isn't really possible, but you should approach it. 02:09:00 "Least surprise" just means minimal cognitive overhead, really. 02:09:05 True. 02:09:10 Raskin's ideas are pretty much perfect. 02:09:17 I want to version every object, pretty much. 02:09:29 Always undo, never prompt ("formatting a disk" shut up that's niche) 02:09:32 Instead of, say, the Windows model of "AIIIYIIII! I MUST YELL AT YOU AT RANDOM!!!" 02:09:58 YOU HAVE CONNECTED A DEVICE TO YOUR COMPUTER 02:10:13 WINDOWS: FIGHTING SECONDS-LATER AMNESIA SINCE 198— WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN? 02:10:22 Those freaking "notifications" must die. 02:10:33 KDE, sadly, has them. 02:10:39 (at least you can turn them off there) 02:10:49 Yep. 02:10:56 Notifications should be when someone talks to you, pretty much. 02:11:02 That's basically it, apart from things like system upgrades. 02:11:29 Oh, one UI want that a lot of people overlook: Stable. 02:11:30 That is, 02:11:39 if you wave your mouse around everywhere, things don't pop down and out and around. 02:11:52 Yeah, some discrete hover effects are okay and the like. 02:12:00 ehird: So, at most a highlight effect? 02:12:02 But a pixel's move shouldn't cause a gigantic popup menu. 02:12:18 This goes back to law of least surprise. 02:12:21 pikhq: It's a general principle, really; the interface should only change more than a little in response to you actually do anything. 02:12:22 And indeed. 02:12:34 (it's amazing how much of good design boils down to that) 02:13:36 I've always appreciated a little bit of understated eye candy in UIs. 02:13:41 It helps direct the eyes, I think. 02:14:13 Understated, certainly. 02:14:22 Yes. 02:14:30 So long as you're not forced to actually pay attention to it. 02:14:37 (which is just distracting) 02:15:34 The main blocker for my OS is that I don't want to use C and I have a distrust of bootstrapping. 02:15:56 And writing a super-speedy high-level language implementation in assembly is how-do-i-put-this. 02:16:08 Absurdly difficult. 02:16:26 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 02:16:40 The only commonly used language that's easy to get running from assembly is C. 02:17:13 Yeah. 02:17:35 But C isn't really an option… it doesn't fit. 02:18:14 Mh. 02:18:47 And, of course, C had that as a design goal. 02:19:21 "C (the PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language)" — jwz 02:20:10 I'm also trying to incorporate interwebby things into it from the start. 02:20:28 For instance: On the webternets, documents are volatile: nobody needs to ask you to change an object they own. 02:20:52 Hush. C is not a PDP-11 assembler. 02:20:57 It's a PDP-7 assembler. 02:21:03 Get it right. 02:21:15 That lead to me thinking about installing components (= sets of objects and methods), and I think using components directly from the 'net but caching them locally could work. On the other hand, that sounds like a leaky abstraction; like RPC and nfs. 02:21:21 pikhq: Tell Zawinski :P 02:26:05 -!- ehird has quit. 02:49:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:02:59 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 03:11:31 -!- ski__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:11:34 -!- ski__ has joined. 03:24:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:25:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:09:04 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation 04:53:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:58:56 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:54:34 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:57:38 -!- Pthing has joined. 06:08:56 -!- coppro has joined. 06:09:47 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 06:12:25 I'm back from vacation, bringing with me several great^H^H^H^H^Hhorrible ideas 06:12:38 -!- coppro has quit (Client Quit). 06:13:01 -!- coppro has joined. 06:19:21 oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that 06:27:35 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("leaving"). 06:28:22 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 07:13:24 -!- Slereah has quit. 07:17:22 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:18:09 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:29 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:05:13 -!- coppro has joined. 09:07:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:15:23 -!- Xiin has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:21:53 -!- Xiin has joined. 09:34:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:51:19 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 10:27:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:39:37 -!- AnMaster has joined. 10:43:17 -!- Asztal has joined. 10:57:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 11:29:45 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:32:18 -!- nice has joined. 11:48:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Connection timed out). 12:00:44 -!- nice has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe. 12:45:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:46:28 -!- olsner has joined. 13:06:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:34:25 -!- ehird has joined. 13:35:50 22:19:21 oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that 13:35:51 oh but I am! 13:37:28 -!- nice has joined. 13:37:53 20:09:04 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation 13:37:54 what's that 13:37:58 hi nice. 13:38:11 ehird, a game that I liked 13:38:13 It died in 2005 13:38:30 "...that on December 5, 2008, Activeworlds, Inc., renewed every single citizenship from 1995 to today for thirty days?" 13:38:38 Looks like you missed it again :P 13:40:09 "On March 3rd 2008 at approximately 7:45 PM, the world was upgraded to P-3750 from P-3000 by Flagg." 13:40:16 Sgeo: Doesn't look dead to me? 13:41:44 Mutation was one world in AW, I think that's a different world 13:42:27 Oh. 13:52:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Connection timed out). 14:01:35 -!- nice has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:37:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:39:15 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot"). 14:44:53 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:55:04 -!- MigoMipo has left (?). 15:32:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:35:54 HAHAHAHA 15:35:56 I have mastered Safari 15:35:58 and beat it with a stick 15:36:07 By editing its internal interface files I have removed the google search field from the location field 15:36:28 MINIMALISM WILL TRIUMPH 15:36:28 HEIL HITLER! 15:36:28 —MINIMALIST HITLER! 15:37:10 any relation to tiny carl jung? 15:37:20 Only if you're a BITCH. 15:37:24 ehird, fancy to screen your Safari? 15:37:40 FireFly: As soon as I decide whether or not to obliterate the backwards/forwards buttons! 15:37:46 I'm leaning towards "no" 15:38:09 Maybe I should clean up my Opera layout 15:38:14 But it's already quite slim 15:38:41 FireFly: Look at every button or other UI element you haven't used in a week, and remove it. 15:38:52 Do the same, but more conservatively, for the last 5 days. 15:39:03 If you find yourself going through menus to use something all the time, add it back. 15:39:30 I've already hidden unnecessary stuff such as status bar and menu bar 15:39:36 Hm 15:40:12 * ehird fiddles with the .nib some more to remove the remaining space 15:40:14 ehird: does minimalist godwin's law only apply to twitter threads? 15:40:26 oerjan: I... have no fucking clue :P 15:41:12 good, good. the conservatives will be pleased. 15:41:24 that you have no clue about fucking, that is. 15:41:43 -_------------------ 15:42:06 * oerjan isn't sure he can fully interpret that smiley 15:43:50 Long eye is long 15:45:47 Safari! You are under arrest for an UNREASONABLE amount of interface whitespace! 15:47:39 ehird: that's not whitespace. those are tiny wilderness preserves! 15:47:51 Administrative debris, perhaps? ;-) 15:49:27 ehird: or actually, safari is the only browser to practice feng shui in its rendering 15:50:14 it would not be fortunate to draw anything in those spots 15:50:33 So that's why the tabs are upside-down 15:51:07 "upside-down"? 15:51:17 Asztal: actually, that is just in the western hemisphere 15:51:32 or wait 15:51:34 whut? 15:51:47 * oerjan is geographically confused 15:52:00 ehird: My webbrowser already *has* a minimalist interface. 15:52:22 (1) I didn't talk to you, (2) key invocations count as part of an interface. 15:52:22 It's got a scrollbar to the left, a small bar showing the current location, and a minibuffer. 15:52:57 Minor difference with key invocations: at least the ones you're not using aren't in your face. 15:53:59 That is completely irrelevant as any decent interface will be dimmed enough to be unnoticeable: there is still the overhead of remembering and utilising these invocations, just as there is with graphical elements. 15:54:07 Graphical elements are usually superior because they are *discoverable*. 15:56:29 http://rapidfiles.net/images/87270tmp9.png <-- Never mind that I accidentally did a find for space 15:56:46 Looks good to me. 15:57:04 That search would help when programming in Whitespace. 15:57:25 True, but a real IDE with syntax highlighting would be better 15:57:38 Even though highlighting whitespace is a bit ironical 15:58:11 Ironical is an ironical word. 15:58:26 FireFly: with so many tabs in one window i'd probably try the graphical preview tab thingy btw 15:58:27 at the bottom 15:58:32 ehird: And you have to discover them all the time. 15:58:38 I tried it a bit 15:58:43 pikhq: uhh, no? 15:59:10 But the problem is, each preview is really small anyway 15:59:14 pikhq: but really, you're a linux/x11 user, of course you prefer shortcut-based programs because all your UIs suck :-P 15:59:18 But I use the hover-preview feature quite a lot 15:59:20 FireFly: make it bigger? 15:59:39 Each preview is only the size of a tab? 16:00:01 FireFly: If you use the graphical tab bar thing you can resize it to be bigger. 16:00:21 Yeah, but only in one direction (the height) 16:00:31 hmm 16:00:35 FireFly: if you put it on the side maybe? 16:01:38 Hm 16:01:46 Well, I like my tabs as they are 16:13:53 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 16:33:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 16:39:21 maybe I should try running OS X/X11 :-D 16:43:31 might as well 16:43:41 what wm/de should i use :D 16:45:05 Ratpoison! 16:45:13 :P 16:46:55 pikhq: mmmmmmmno :P 16:47:02 maybe dwm 16:47:03 eh 16:47:06 I'll just install X11 to start with 16:47:10 and use tw fuckin' m 16:47:20 meanwhile, it'll be a fucking pain to get it all restored when I get bored 16:47:21 but oh well! 16:47:32 twm's a royal pain. 16:47:41 I know, I love it 16:48:35 i'd make a video of it booting up after this, but my iphone can't do that :( 16:48:53 ooh 16:48:56 I should grab that X11 opening screen 16:49:00 the alternating black/white 16:49:40 * ehird makes his own 16:51:11 hmm 16:52:35 eh 16:52:38 not perfect but it'll do 16:53:27 -!- coppro has joined. 16:53:31 i'm basically detonating a nuclear bomb to have a pretty light show here 16:53:36 i'll have to put eeeeeeverything back manually 16:54:44 * ehird removes the Dock totally, replaces the Finder with X11 16:54:47 I should keep backups. 17:02:52 This is just ridiculous. 17:03:29 What did you do? 17:07:20 coppro: hehe well 17:07:31 i'm disabling every single part of mac os x that isn't vital, then replacing the Finder with X11 17:07:35 X11 on Quartz! 17:07:42 ah, seems logical 17:07:45 the issue is that putting it all back will be a fucking pain 17:07:56 coppro: well it involves moving a lot of system files around and then forgetting about them. 17:10:25 also I'm having to switch windows by doing open -a 'app' in the terminal 17:10:27 not even cmd-tab works 17:13:02 coppro: anyway, how's it logical :P 17:13:48 because I hate Apple 17:18:07 oh right i remember you hate apple because… actually i don't even recall you giving a reason 17:18:07 Quartz is an apple technology anyway, so suck it 17:18:07 meanwhile, x11 compiles slowly. 17:18:07 I hate Apple because of their business practices 17:18:07 nothing against their product 17:18:19 ehird: That's fekking crazy. 17:18:28 if you have nothing against their product then removing the apple stuff would not warrant "logical" 17:18:31 This coming from a guy who hates his mouse. 17:18:32 because I already bought it. 17:18:42 pikhq: it's intermediate :P 17:18:56 anyway there are better companies than apple to hate 17:19:22 they comply by licenses, they release code they don't even have to, and it's an open platform… the iphone is a fuck up, but totally unrelated 17:19:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:00 touched a nerve? 17:22:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:22:46 hello ais523! 17:23:09 -!- coppro has joined. 17:24:12 so while I was on vacation I had a horrible horrible idea 17:24:24 if it doesn't involve murder it isn't horrible. 17:27:46 coppro: well? 17:27:57 sorry, got sidetracked 17:28:08 yeah you should never d ooh shiny 17:28:40 A programming language where each subexpression is, rather than interpreted and evaluated in some other manner, simply pattern matched against every available function 17:28:59 um 17:29:03 ais523: tell coppro how mathematica works 17:29:10 coppro: it doesn't 17:29:15 lol 17:29:18 ais523: not like that :P 17:29:24 but yes, it's all pattern matching behind the scenes 17:29:39 combined with lots of calls out to C in an attempt to gain a semblence of efficiency 17:29:54 also, see Thutu, which is like Mathematica but with a considerably smaller stdlib 17:30:03 yes, but the idea is to take it to a level of horribleness 17:30:09 again, see Thutu 17:30:10 mathematica is that horrible :P 17:30:12 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu 17:30:17 or, as ehird says, mathematica 17:31:17 coppro: So, Haskell if *everything* were a case statement. You're mad, man. 17:31:28 looking at Thutu, which doesn't seem like what I want 17:31:51 what's wrong with it? is it something different from what you expected? 17:32:05 x11 is installed 17:32:14 Where can I declare my arbitrary pattern-matching functions to effectively alter the syntax 17:32:47 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:34:49 well, in Thutu, you're more or less doing that; it's just that there are two syntaxes to think about, the syntax of Thutu (fixed), and the syntax of the string it operates on (variable) 17:38:24 but where's the pattern matching? 17:38:28 (not regex matching) 17:39:20 alrighty, what WM should I use to start with! 17:41:54 ehird: do you want a lightweight or heavyweight one? 17:42:05 hmm... use Sugar 17:42:12 just because I haven't heard anyone hear claim they use it 17:42:12 just want something simple but conventional to get me into OS X/Quartz/X11 mode 17:42:23 ais523: *here 17:42:27 and it's a single-tasking environment, so. 17:42:50 fluxbox and xfce are the conventional relatively simple ones, aren't they? 17:43:58 i hate fluxbox and xfce is a DE 17:44:06 maybe lwm 17:44:09 eh 17:44:27 lwm it is 17:44:34 bah 17:44:36 no package 17:44:38 twm it is :P 17:45:41 I'm going to nominate that for "craziest damned thing done to OS X", mmkay? 17:46:00 :) 17:46:18 ehird: is this your classic mac box? 17:46:23 hell no 17:46:28 that thing runs Mac OS 9.1 17:46:42 I thought you were trying to get it to run Linux 17:46:48 ais523: i'm basically making an X11/Unix system, except the X11 server runs on top of Quartz as the graphics backend 17:46:54 on OS X 17:47:01 Quartz is what powers OS X's regular GUI 17:47:06 sort of like implementing X11 using GDI on Windows? 17:47:07 so I'm disabling everything, setting X11 to start up fullscreen 17:47:11 ais523: sorta, yeah 17:47:32 it'll also use the keyboard/mouse from OS X's gui 17:49:05 ehird: Thou art mad. 17:49:16 quite so good chap 17:49:24 It'd be totally awesome if OS X windows were being managed by the X11 window manager, though. 17:49:36 alas impossible 17:49:38 ... I'm not sure why you'd do that, mind, but it would be awesome. 17:51:10 OK, time to do it 17:51:16 if this breaks, i love you guys! or something 17:51:49 [ehird:~] % cd /System/Library/CoreServices 17:51:49 [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo mv Finder.app Finder.old.app 17:51:50 Password: 17:51:50 [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo ln -s /Applications/MacPorts/X11.app/ Finder.app 17:51:50 [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % 17:51:54 and now to restart 17:52:01 -!- ehird has quit. 17:54:50 -!- ehird has joined. 17:54:52 Holy crap, it worked. 17:55:17 wow 17:55:22 Yeah. 17:55:32 do you have any easy way to start applications from here? 17:55:33 It went a bit weird when I tried to restart, but starting it up manually... it just worked. 17:55:38 ais523: twm menu, xterms 17:56:04 44 ?? 0:00.02 /bin/sh /Library/Parallels/Parallels Service.app/Conten 17:56:08 ts/Resources/ParallelsDispatcherService start 17:56:10 tut tut 17:56:28 All the elegance of OS X's Unixy underpinnings with all the beauty of X11. ... Wait, that can't be right. 17:56:32 :P 17:56:36 pikhq: Quite :-D 17:56:52 ugh a lot of vmware fusion stuff too 17:57:07 lol, if I unfullscreen x11 i don't have any cursor 17:57:08 hardcore 17:57:19 Awesome. 17:57:23 That must be done by Finder.app usually. 17:57:28 just the blue startup background and the menubar :D 17:57:31 and i'm going to disable the menubar 17:57:39 so control-option-a will become my "YAY BLUE" key 17:57:52 pikhq: also, hey, I have Finder.app open! 17:57:56 it just happens to be a symlink to X11 ;-) 17:58:00 XD 17:58:19 it really works snappily, this 17:59:01 ok, if i get rid of parallels and vmware fusion, i'll just have system stuff, the ui server, and x11 17:59:05 kickass 17:59:05 -!- not_from_mibbit has joined. 17:59:12 hello not_from_mibbit/ais523 17:59:22 um okay i need a browser for this thing 17:59:23 ^_^ 17:59:26 hi 17:59:28 maybe epiphany 17:59:33 yes, I am ais523, obviously 17:59:44 -!- not_from_mibbit has quit (Client Quit). 17:59:45 argh i hate sloppy focus 17:59:59 hey pikhq! should i install gnome or kde on this? optimise for hilarity, not practicality. 18:00:09 Gnome is always more hilarious 18:00:17 Deewiant: I'm offended; I like gnome. 18:00:23 ehird: Both. 18:00:26 Run Gnome with Kwin. 18:00:27 pikhq: Ew. 18:00:40 Kwin is the worst part of KD E:P 18:00:41 *KD E:P 18:00:43 ... 18:00:44 *KDE :P 18:00:56 Fine, fine. Sawtooth and KDE. 18:00:59 ehird: A gnome is more hilarious than some dragon any day 18:01:09 (yes, yes, the window manager GNOME hasn't used since 2002) 18:01:21 Deewiant: I don't think Gnome's mascot is a gnome :-P 18:01:27 Unless it's one of them foot-shaped gnomes. 18:01:29 ehird: Irrelevant 18:01:32 It should be, anyway. 18:01:33 Your face is irrelevant. 18:01:39 !c printf("%x",'#') 18:01:41 23 18:01:42 Incidentally, you're right. 18:01:55 Wow, my mouse wheel works in w3m in an xterm. 18:02:02 That's... unexpected. 18:02:39 ehird: X adds more features all the time, and terminal apps can does mouse. 18:02:59 ehird: not just that, it handles clicks too 18:03:02 IIRC 18:03:12 that's less surprising 18:03:13 is it that you have to double-click on links to follow them? 18:03:15 yes 18:03:27 and no, less handles the wheel without mouse handling 18:03:36 Yes, but I knew you could handle the buttons 18:03:39 as mouse wheel in a terminal with curses grabbing defaults to simulating up/down keypresses 18:03:46 Anyway, I'm going to restart now to test the menu hid-- fuck, I don't know how to restart. 18:03:56 ehird: just tell init to restart? 18:04:03 No init; this is X11. 18:04:09 Launchd probably has a shutdown command or whatever. 18:04:12 err 18:04:14 this is OS X 18:04:20 Also, sparta. 18:04:32 try sudo telinit 6, they may have implemented telinit anyway 18:04:39 they have not. 18:04:41 shutdown Prepare for system shutdown 18:04:45 "prepare" worries me 18:04:52 % which shutdown 18:04:52 /sbin/shutdown 18:04:54 duh! 18:05:07 * ehird sudo shutdown -r now 18:05:09 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 18:05:38 ais523: They stopped using init years ago. 18:05:41 ;) 18:05:51 pikhq: still, telinit is pretty easy to implement even without init 18:06:09 you could probably implement it for Windows in a few lines of cmd batch script 18:07:22 -!- ehird has joined. 18:07:25 update: 18:07:30 the menu bar is still there but now i have a mouse in OS X mode 18:07:32 this confuses me. 18:07:50 wow awesome 18:07:55 if I open an OS X app, it goes to the blue OS X mode 18:07:57 and opens it there 18:07:58 and when I quit 18:08:00 it goes back to X11 18:08:04 unintentional integration FTW! 18:10:29 reminds me of how windows 3.1 ran dos apps 18:10:39 how? 18:10:55 btw it just happens because X11 defocuses for the new app, then when it closes it focuses X11 back :) 18:11:12 ais523: 3.1 had a DOS console. It only becomes fullscreen when the DOS app uses graphics routines. 18:11:33 pikhq: yes, but nobody used the DOS console because it was rather buggy 18:11:41 and you could set it to fullscreen console apps too 18:11:48 True. 18:13:24 * pikhq is amazed that Microsoft released IE5 for Windows 3.1... 18:14:09 Okay, more amazing: Windows 3.11 stopped being sold in *2008*... 18:14:11 okay guys, gnome or kde 18:14:15 pikhq: o_O 18:15:14 ehird: are you considering KDE 3 or 4? 18:15:21 kde 4, naturally 18:15:31 IMO, 4's still too buggy to really use day-to-day 18:15:36 so I'd go for Gnome with that choice 18:15:40 you're wrong 18:15:54 you may have been right, like, a year ago. 18:15:55 all sorts of weird things happen when I try to use the packaged version here 18:16:03 and I last tried a couple of months ago 18:16:12 blame ubuntu 18:16:17 fair enough 18:20:26 oh lol 18:20:30 twm can grow a window but not shrink it 18:21:25 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:21:38 Yeah, TWM doesn't... Do much. 18:22:41 * ehird realises he'll have to compile gnome or kde, ew 18:22:44 that'll take years 18:23:05 are they in macports? 18:23:22 yes 18:24:22 so it's not hard, just time-consuiming 18:28:04 bah, I'm bored of this; how predictable 18:29:17 sorry to disappoint but i'm reverting. 18:30:25 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal"). 18:33:21 -!- ehird has joined. 18:34:40 * coppro tries to think up a workable syntax for Stutter 18:34:54 is that your rewriter thing? 18:35:14 yes 18:35:20 just have one rewrite rule, /regex/ → "replacement string" 18:35:24 and a few primitives 18:35:24 done 18:35:26 it's not regexes 18:35:29 it's pattern matching 18:35:33 same fuckin' thing 18:35:41 no 18:36:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:36:19 pattern matching is a semantic element of a language; regexes are text processing 18:36:51 regexps are just pattern matching on strings. 18:37:12 coppro: seen OIL? 18:37:23 it's rather INTERCAL-specific, but it's a domain-specific language that does pattern matching on trees 18:37:33 no, I haven't 18:38:07 it's documented in the C-INTERCAL Revamped Manual 18:38:10 in one of the appendices 18:38:22 not a tonsil? 18:38:22 I use it to write INTERCAL optimisers, it's a language specifically designed for just one thing 18:38:29 ehird: nah, wrong manual 18:38:36 I'm thinking that all "true" keywords will have to be delimited, say with # 18:38:52 why keywords? 18:38:56 pattern matching doesn't need keywords 18:39:04 you need some sort of built-ins 18:39:09 why? 18:39:24 pattern matching's TC even without built-ins 18:39:26 because some constructs cannot be expressed in the language itself 18:39:43 pretty rubbish language if that's the case 18:39:45 for instance, you need to define pattern matching 18:39:51 *define patterns 18:40:01 you can do that with pattern matching 18:40:07 obviously, the regress will need to bottom out somewhere 18:40:22 err.. man, that came out wrong. I meant that some constructs cannot be constructed with the language but must be expressed directly in it 18:40:30 what are you thinking of? 18:40:36 Thue is TC, to give you an idea of what I'm getting at 18:41:03 right, but Thue has a built-in ::= construct 18:41:14 to define the pattern 18:42:16 furthermore, I want a type system 18:42:46 Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed. 18:43:15 and you need a mechanism to interface with it 18:43:28 it's not a string-rewriting language 18:45:10 pikhq's description was closest 18:45:27 coppro: ah, ok, so it's more OIL-like than thutu-like 18:45:32 term-rewriting, presumably 18:45:45 OIL has a fixed type system, presumably you're going for something more flexible 18:45:47 yes 18:46:03 can you link to the C-INTERCAL manual, or is that in the package? 18:46:15 it's in the package, or should be 18:46:25 there's an online version somewhere too, try http://select.intercal.org 18:46:25 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:48:56 hmm 18:49:13 I'm not on Linux right now :/ 18:50:36 I'm trying to decide between true term rewriting and more traditional imperative evaluation, except using pattern matching to determine what to do in every instance 18:51:25 the biggest headache is recursive constructs 18:52:31 for j in { for i in foo do bar done} do {baz} done should clearly be allowed 18:53:18 but what about without the braces? 18:55:46 coppro: `` for the first set of braces 18:55:53 or $() if you want it to nest 18:56:13 ais523: no, I mean "for j in for i in foo do bar done do baz done" 18:56:18 in theory it's parseable 18:56:27 um that's trivially parsable 18:56:29 trivially, Lua parses like that 18:56:41 but writing a pattern matching rule for that is nasty 18:56:45 erm no it's not 18:56:52 not if you have recursive patterns 18:57:03 actually, just go look up perl6 regexes, rather than reinventing the wheel 18:57:10 as opposed to perl5 regexes, I think they do exactly what you want 18:57:16 not regexes, dammit! 18:57:23 they aren't really regexes, just called that 18:57:25 perl 6 regexes aren't 18:57:28 also, stop saying "not regexes" 18:57:29 they're more some sort of massive BNF 18:57:40 get the freaking regexes out of your head 18:57:46 no. 18:57:48 fu 18:57:58 coppro: the issue is, you seem to have a predefined concept of what a regex is 18:58:07 ais523: said it better than i could have 18:58:12 whereas what you're doing is /exactly/ the way regexes were generalised for, say, perl6 and cyclexa 18:58:21 ais523: but I'm not looking for text replacement 18:58:27 coppro: exactly 18:58:27 coppro: you're being stupid. stop that. 18:58:31 it's not good to be stupid :P 18:58:43 perl6 regexes do general pattern matching 18:58:49 you can match them on arrays, for instance 18:58:54 or complex data structures 19:01:36 hmm... apparently emacs now shows PDFs 19:02:47 ais523: hmm... reading the Apocalypse - still looks like text matching 19:03:10 they start with the bits that perl5 programmers will understand 19:04:12 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 19:04:56 can you point out where it says you can match arbitrary structures in a non-string manner? 19:06:38 ais523: Emacs has a very hard time figuring out how to add impressive new features. ;) 19:06:38 well, in perl6 you create the arbitrary structures from strings with the regices, which isn't quite what you're doing, but similar 19:06:51 pikhq: they also added M-x butterfly, but I can't find a source saying what it does 19:07:31 ais523: xkcd reference. 19:07:35 yes, I know 19:07:42 but just because it's an xkcd reference doesn't explain what it does 19:07:50 http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html 19:07:53 I'm thinking something more like ML pattern matching 19:08:09 Command: Use butterflies to flip the desired bit on the drive platter. 19:09:04 apparently you type it M-x butterfly C-M-c; they had to permute C-x M-c M-butterfly to get it to fit within the usual command sequences 19:11:07 That's not to get it to fit within the usual command sequences. That permutation is to press the butterfly key without physically having one. 19:11:11 :D 19:11:28 I'm trying to find the source of this thing to see how it's implemented 19:19:22 ooh, one improvement in emacs 23 that might be everyday-useful 19:19:35 ? 19:19:35 you can now type C-x 8 RET in order to enter special characters by hex code or name 19:19:52 That's useful. 19:20:14 * ais523 C-x 8 RET GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA 19:20:17 it even tab-completes! 19:20:56 Heh, a funny percentage indicator for "loading unicode character names" when I first pressed the tab. 19:26:08 also, the new behaviour of C-l is useful, I've been using that a lot 19:26:26 (I use emacs-snapshot, so I've had many of emacs 23's changes for ages) 19:27:11 Antialiasing is also nice. 19:35:14 -!- ehird has quit. 19:37:36 See what your senseless praise of emacs did! Now ehird has quit. 19:38:02 M-x butterfly C-M-c would be a lot more useful if it could flip bits on other people's drives 19:38:23 Truly. 19:39:25 Well, let's ask testlm-disk.pl about Emacs. "emacs is objectively superior... nice title animation, video, pictures?! it isn't an executable" 19:40:18 Also, aliens use rj45. 19:50:23 http://narc.oti.cz/ 19:59:30 -!- ehird has joined. 20:03:13 wb ehird 20:04:30 [19:07] pikhq: http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html 20:04:44 that's lame, they should use the 1-bit-a-month error rate for non-ECC memory 20:04:53 and calculate how long it should take to flip a bit in this file 20:04:56 that's memory, not hard disk as in the comic 20:04:57 then wait that long 20:05:07 ais523: just map the portion of ram to disk, duh 20:05:08 so it would have to be repeatedly loading files into memory, then writing them back out 20:05:11 as in, automatically persisted 20:05:26 anyway, I hate programs having more than one simple easter egg 20:06:22 (a) they're amusing perhaps once (b) they are the most flagrant violation of the understanding that features have a cost possible (c) it takes time that could be spent doing better things and (d) referencing everything xkcd says is not funny 20:06:53 ehird: but if people are kind enough to write and submit the easter egg, why not commit it 20:07:04 also, IIRC INTERCAL is nothing /but/ easter eggs 20:07:15 you know what i hate? when someone tries to rebut a whole line by trying to rebut one part of it 20:07:17 and ignoring the others 20:07:36 ehird: It was added in misc.el, which isn't loaded by default. 20:07:43 irrelevant 20:07:48 ehird: no, I'm just rebutting some of the points, a rebuttal for all of them would take quite a while and probably not fit in 510 characters 20:08:03 ais523: your rebuttal was rebutted by one of my original points 20:08:06 so it was utterly useless 20:08:09 (d) seems to be irrelevant, as there's more than one xkcd comic in existence 20:08:26 and having more interesting features motivates more people to help maintain them 20:08:46 i've lost count how many times i've had this discussion, fuck it 20:09:07 ehird: I'm just going to say that Emacs is the posterchild for bloat and leave it at that. 20:09:21 it goes deeper than that, but yes, i despise emacs 20:16:43 so 20:16:54 os 20:17:16 do you think it would be possible to use gps along with some accelerometers to calculate position to a few centimeters? 20:17:36 with a very precise gps and very good accelerometers, yes :P 20:17:41 bsmntbombdood: augmented reality stuff? 20:17:49 something like that 20:18:37 bsmntbombdood: there's an iphone app for iirc the toronto train station thingy that overlays where to go for stations on top of the camera feed; i think it works on all iphones so i guess it works with camera + accelerometer; if not then that + gps 20:18:40 prolly uses the camera image 20:18:46 but the video i saw was quite good 20:19:09 the iphone can't have that good accelerometers in it 20:19:12 ugh 20:19:17 grammar is hard 20:19:27 it only has one 20:19:30 and it's fairly regular 20:19:38 so it probably relies a lot on the camera but it was very good 20:19:50 i'm not sure how it works, really 20:20:04 maybe the compass thingy, i think the iphone 3g s has one 20:20:35 that's not going to be very helpful 20:21:07 yeah, i really don't know; but it did it really well 20:21:18 overlayed it perfectly and you could tilt it and it updated in less than a second 20:21:31 so it's obviously possible with just a few tools 20:25:21 i wonder how much good accelerometers cots 20:25:42 you can make a bad accelerometer with a weight, a potentiometer, and a pair of springs 20:25:52 presumably the good ones work on the same principle, but more accurately 20:29:15 would a gyro be helpful at all in addition with accelerometers 20:29:16 ? 20:30:09 gyro determines orientation, accelerometers determine movement 20:30:18 bsmntbombdood: No, but it may be delicious. 20:30:25 20:30:28 you can try to dead-reckon orientation from movement, but you'll probably mess up 20:30:34 so a gyro helps 20:31:33 so with a single gyro and a 1-access accelerometer you can dead reckon 2d position 20:31:54 no, you'd need to accelerometers 20:32:02 *2 accelerometers 20:32:05 * ehird accelerometers 20:32:14 hm wait 20:32:16 why? 20:32:18 that's like saying "ehird jump" 20:32:22 * ehird accelerometerses 20:32:22 uh.... what the heck is Gorm and why do I have it installed on my computer? 20:32:24 the setup you mentioned couldn't detect the device being moved sideways wrt the accelerometer 20:32:37 GNUstep Developer Tools - Gorm 20:32:37 Gorm stands for "Graphical Object Relationship Modeller" and is GNUstep's easy- to-use interface designer. In the following sections you will learn more ... 20:32:38 or 20:32:44 Grails - GORM 20:32:45 GORM is Grails' object relational mapping (ORM) implementation. Under the hood it uses Hibernate 3 (an extremely popular and flexible open source ORM ... 20:32:48 oh, of course 20:32:59 but if you have two accelerometers you dont' need a gyro 20:33:03 must be GNUStep. but still doesn't answer, why the hell do I have it here >_< 20:33:08 you do, in case the device is rotated 20:33:13 Gracenotes: you installed gnustep development tools? 20:33:30 er. that might be it. but this.. clunky GUI thing... really? 20:33:33 you could use a third accelerometer to try to detect rotations, but a gyro works better for that 20:33:42 for the record I haven't read the discussion: the single accelero in the iphone can detect tilts and spinning 20:33:43 as in 20:33:53 you can tilt it forwards and backwards, and change its orientation 20:34:13 ehird: it's going to be what's effectively multiple accelerometers in one package, possibly using just the one weight 20:34:16 ais523: oh, right 20:34:24 ais523: hmm really? 20:34:26 as in, it's equivalent to several accelerometers, but possibly just in one package 20:34:40 and with components in common 20:34:46 http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Apple_iPhone_4.jpg 20:34:46 but 3 accelerometers are good for 3 dimensions right? 20:34:54 it doesn't have a gyro 20:34:56 bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming you know your orientation 20:35:00 ehird: dead-reckoning, then 20:35:07 ais523: ehwot? 20:35:12 why would you have to know your orientation? 20:35:22 oh, right 20:35:23 ehird: accelerometers can't figure out orientations, but they can figure out rotations, and deduce the orientation from that 20:35:31 ah 20:35:48 Ah 20:35:49 they'd need to be very accurate to prevent errors accumulating, though 20:35:49 ais523: that might be why sometimes my iphone is in one position but thinks it's the other, and flipping the other way and back again fixes it 20:36:14 so with 4 coplaner but not coliner accelerometers, you don't need a gyro, right? 20:37:53 bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming that the lines they measure don't have a common point either 20:38:04 although, if they're all coplanar, you can't measure the third dimension at all 20:38:24 why not? 20:38:28 symmetry 20:38:36 either that, or you don't realise what "coplanar" means 20:39:51 sitting in the same aisle in a flight to california? 20:39:57 the point is, if all the accelerometers are in the same plane, and pointing along it, they can't distinguish up from down 20:40:19 evenant: bad puns are oerjan's job 20:40:22 but he isn't here, so I'll forgive you 20:40:45 :P 20:49:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:52:03 happy australian mailman reminders day, everyone! 20:52:12 fuck! 20:52:18 that means i'm 14 in 23 days… 20:52:33 where does the time go, i say 20:52:35 get off my lawn 20:53:14 23 days, eh? 20:53:19 I'm 17 in 6 days 20:54:07 16 → 17 is meh. 20:54:14 :P 20:54:25 (I likely won't be saying that when I'm 16.) 20:54:36 Yeah, well it is quite meh 20:54:51 ((If I haven't died from all the COPIOUS ALCOHOL, DRUGS AND ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC that all the teenagers so vigourously consume.)) 20:55:13 Since MUSIC is so deadly, right? 20:55:54 FireFly: Yes. 20:56:55 -!- coppro has joined. 21:09:40 17 is a decent birthday 21:11:51 wb coppro 21:12:01 Hm 21:12:04 [22:11:39] w00t, that new snapshot has tunable tab bar width 21:12:12 Maybe it's worth checking out the new Opera snapshot 21:12:26 CESSMASTER: but not as good as 420 amirite 21:12:39 ALAS SCIENCE CANNOT YET ACHIEVE THIS 21:14:34 being 420 years old would fucking suck what's the matter with you 21:15:39 don't shoot the messenger man 21:15:57 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:18:55 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/31/office_for_mac_service_pack_woes/ 21:26:53 "Exactly when in August, however, is not mentioned." -- probably Patch Tuesday as usual 21:28:54 ehird: Rock and roll þou ſayeſt 21:28:55 ? 21:29:04 Yes. 21:29:23 * pikhq ſtarts ſome of þis "rock" and "roll". 21:31:47 * ehird farts some of his rock and roll 21:32:14 Oh, aren't you just the soul of wit? 21:50:11 -!- ehird has quit. 21:51:43 hmm, 16 -> 17 is meh, also back then when I was 16 -> 17 21:58:32 Yeah, well, I'd rather have it 16 -> 15; one more year of not having to work and stuff 21:58:48 Of course going 0 -> -1 wouldn't really be nice 21:59:05 Neither would 0 -> 255 (or similar) if the age is unsigned 22:02:27 -!- ehird has joined. 22:02:49 FireFly: 255->0 would be an improvement on that. 22:03:04 Still suck, though. 22:03:10 Yeah 22:03:41 * Leonidas would prefer to stay 20, forever 22:03:52 Maybe there is some gameshark cheat for that 22:05:19 Just freeze the value your age pointer points to 22:05:37 But you prolly don't have access to that, need to be root 22:06:03 20-something is a good age, methinks. 22:06:53 -!- FireFly has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is strictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 22:06:59 Ur, whoops 22:07:10 Whatever, just removed an unnecessary space 22:10:49 -!- ais523 has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is srictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 22:10:55 * ais523 introduces a typo into the topic 22:11:59 "is" should be "are" anyway 22:12:10 can anyone explain this (apart from "he's bullshitting")? http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/969sy/your_ip_ip_address_has_been_logged_your_isp_wrong/c0bkohn 22:12:23 At least you save us one byte of transfer on join 22:12:32 * ais523 boggles at the sentence-like structure in that URL 22:12:35 Changing to are would of course nullify that effect 22:12:40 "Your IP IP address has been logged your ISP wrong"/ 22:12:44 ais523: Post title slug. 22:12:51 A load of blogs make URLs out of the post title, too. 22:12:59 It's a comment on it 22:13:01 s/$/./ 22:13:42 my guess is that he has two computers 22:13:52 ais523: that falls under "he's bullshitting" 22:13:54 one of which he's successfully connected to 127.0.0.1 on and thinks it's internet-connected 22:13:59 the other of which he's using to comment on reddit 22:13:59 while that is quite likely, it's also pointless 22:14:06 so 22:14:10 i'm asking for a technical explanation 22:14:12 I think it's being confused and deluded, rather than bullshit 22:14:27 "I don't even know how I'm on the interwebs." 22:14:31 obviously that implies being on that computer 22:14:37 it is theoretically possible to be internet-connected without a connection other than the mains cable 22:14:39 "This thing is so old that it doesn't have an internal wireless adapter, and I'm not using any cables either. Maybe the interweb courses through my veins?" 22:14:42 "This thing" 22:14:53 networking through mains cables - which are still giving power at the same time - has been a solved problem for a while 22:14:58 I don't think there's any motive to lie and he seems pretty straight about it, but… 22:15:04 I can't figure out how it could happen. 22:15:11 I'm guessing that it actually DOES do wireless. 22:15:11 but it never really caught on, and I think there were regulatory problems 22:15:23 ehird: "This thing" doesn't necessarily mean "the computer I'm using" 22:15:41 oh, that was it, networking via mains cable blocked short-wave radio as a weird side-effect 22:15:43 Shall I say it one more time? I'm not asking for explanations that involve him deliberately using misleading language to fuck with us 22:15:45 s/$/./ 22:15:58 ehird: I'm saying, it may be accidentally misleading 22:16:22 ais523: So you're suggesting this guy, after trying to connect to the internet loads and loads of times, never tried to open a site? 22:16:24 Bullshit. 22:17:04 ehird: my assumption is that he thinks he's connected, but that the web isn't working 22:17:10 he's obviously technical enough to know some things, but not others 22:17:18 so my guess is, he thinks that if he can ping anything, he's connected 22:17:25 and it's something elsewhere that isn't working if he can't visit websites 22:17:36 >_< 22:17:40 No. 22:18:21 NOBODY tries repeatedly to get the internet working on a computer, pings sites multiple times ("my pings come back 100%") and doesn't try to load anything. 22:18:21 ais523: Plus: 22:18:21 "and, well, here I am." 22:18:33 So he's definitely saying the internet works on _that machine_. 22:18:58 well, if it's a laptop with an unsecured wireless connection near it, it may have connected to the connection automatically 22:19:15 "it's plugged in for power" 22:19:22 that isn't the kind of thing someone with a laptop would say 22:19:26 ehird: I normally run my laptop plugged in 22:19:29 ais523: yes, but 22:19:30 the battery life here is about 20 minutes 22:19:33 it's not REQUIRED 22:19:40 and he was obviously listing the needed cables 22:19:40 so for me it effectively is required 22:19:48 ais523: anyway 22:19:51 it's old 22:19:56 he thinks it's so old it doesn't do wireless 22:19:57 soo 22:20:01 I'm gonna go with "not a laptop" 22:20:12 otherwise, it'd be a pentium, 5kg dealie 22:20:35 desktops didn't commonly do wireless ever 22:20:45 true 22:21:11 perhaps I need to call bullshit on things more often, otherwise I'll just get confused 22:23:21 "Twitkitteh is, quite simply, the first Twitter application written specifically for cats." 22:23:36 ("We at TLA Systems are pleased to announce that with Apple’s new App Store policy changes now in effect, Twitkitteh will very soon be the only iPhone Twitter client available to the under-17 market.") 22:23:41 I wonder if that's in cat years or not. 22:37:12 hmm, encode cat pictures in 140 bytes for twitter. Fun. 22:37:30 i remember that compression thingy 22:37:46 Maybe there is a programming language that parses 140 bytes and spits out pictures of cats. 22:37:57 Leonidas: they have that 22:37:59 it's called twitter 22:38:24 ehird: yep, but I want actual images, not bit.ly urls 22:38:31 :-P 22:38:59 C======a=============================t would produce the picture of langcat 22:39:28 *longcat 22:39:39 we should make langcats 22:39:43 they're cats that represent eso-langs 22:40:28 yep. 22:41:42 @ehird: so this is the langcat for "Chef" http://bit.ly/5pbwi 22:42:52 clearly 22:50:05 -!- Judofyr has joined. 22:53:38 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:59:52 -!- cmeme has joined. 23:14:47 …cmeme?! 23:15:03 ais523: has cmeme been in here all this time? 23:15:07 I thought it died with ircbrowse.com 23:15:12 ehird: not that I remember 23:15:20 maybe ircbrowse.com are logging us again 23:15:25 nah, it's still down 23:15:43 mh 23:15:45 i think it has been here 23:16:25 Is cmeme in any way related to clog, except for both being bots associated with loggin, beginning on the same character? 23:16:29 s/on/with/ 23:16:38 no, they're different organisations entirely 23:17:03 'kay 23:17:07 well 23:17:12 that's a simplification 23:17:16 For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/. 23:17:17 For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com. 23:17:17 Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/. 23:17:33 so it WAS clog at one point 23:17:35 but then changed over to cmeme 23:17:36 oh yes, the people who run (ran?) clog know that cmeme exist 23:17:41 nonono 23:17:45 meme used to be an interface to clog logs 23:17:49 then they started using cmeme instead 23:18:05 really? from that, all that it seems to imply is that meme started doing the same thing, and tunes linked to them 23:18:19 These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing. 23:18:19 Annoyances such as horizontal window scrolling are due to the poor choice of viewer. 23:18:19 For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/. 23:18:19 For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com. 23:18:20 Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/. 23:18:30 "for even prettier logs" 23:18:37 it's rather obvious in context that it's listing pretty ways to view clog logs, ais523. 23:18:39 not "for an even prettier version of these logs" 23:18:43 since cmeme DOESN'T LOG THE SAME CHANNELS. 23:18:50 so that line would be utterly stupid 23:18:55 then, the last one, is "for cmeme's logs in clog format" 23:18:59 the last would be pointless otherwise 23:18:59 "If you want nicer-tasting chicken, why not eat a dog?" 23:19:03 errrrrrrrrrrrrr 23:19:04 no 23:19:08 that's not even a remotely valid reading of it 23:19:17 ais523: Clearly, it makes logs more beautiful by making them untruthful when the truth is ugly. 23:19:18 clog has no format 23:19:27 ehird: yes, it does, it's just a plaintext dump 23:19:30 but it's still a format 23:19:33 clog is a bot 23:19:40 and it outputs in a particular format 23:21:17 "Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/." ;; if anything, this is a meme interface to clog logs 23:21:29 but i am 100% sure it does not mean "here is the previous line in raw format" 23:21:34 because that's *not what it says at all* 23:22:21 a "virtual clog" would be something that worked the same way as clog, whilst not being clog 23:22:28 ……………………… 23:22:31 ais523: "virtual _ apache directories" 23:22:34 virtual directories in apache 23:22:35 as in "meme also do the same thing as us, as well as providing pretty logs" 23:22:37 i.e. not real files 23:22:38 come on man 23:22:40 don't be an idiot 23:23:25 unfortunately the Wayback Machine doesn't have the content that used to be there 23:23:50 why would anyone link to an alternate name for the same thing? a different logbot with the same output format is useful, though 23:24:14 please, you're depressing me that a seemingly sane person could possibly mangle the interpretation of the english language in such a way 23:24:23 it's like you're disregarding the sentence and substituting a meaning 23:24:55 ehird: English is a total slut. 23:25:12 pikhq: you did WHAT with that chicken? 23:25:34 That it is bending down to fellate ais523 right now doesn't change that it will do anything for anyone. 23:25:37 :P 23:25:58 ehird: I can't see any legitimate interpretation of your reading at all 23:26:05 nothing there suggests that the two are the same thing 23:26:19 "here are our logs; here are some other logs" 23:26:36 BECAUSE CLOG IS A BOT AND NOTHING ELSE! 23:26:53 it does not make sense to provide a virtual directory of clog unless it's the logs logged by that bot 23:27:08 it does not say "virtual directory of clog" 23:27:15 it says "virtual clog apache directories" 23:27:36 yes, and because I know what a virtual directory in apache is, I can reword it in a valid way to try and make it clearer to you 23:27:49 how else do you want me to try and tell you you're wrong? repeating the sentence verbatim over and over? 23:29:17 we can't check who was right until we find the content on the site, and/or ask the maintainers 23:29:31 anyway, there's a far more pressing issue here: given that ircbrowse.com is down, who on earth is cmeme logging for? 23:29:54 /dev/null 23:30:11 pikhq: please tell me i'm not hallucinating and that ais523's interpretation IS crazy 23:30:34 ehird: logging for /dev/null would be ridiculous, nobody would waste server resources on that 23:30:35 ais523: I'm not sure what the hell the point of this is. 23:30:44 well, there was that process on normish which pinged yahoo for an entire month 23:30:46 but that was a mistake 23:30:54 ais523: it's down due to the server being unmaintained, duh 23:30:59 the old meme redirects to ircbrowse 23:31:03 and the guy's blog was last updated in '07 23:31:08 ais523: tunes.org is also unmaintained 23:31:14 faré just breaks the server every now and then 23:31:20 if clog has a bug and breaks, it would not be fixed 23:31:39 because the original coder doesn't maintain it any more. 23:39:59 http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/ The mind boggles. 23:44:17 hah, sweet 23:44:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:44:38 see, my user-mode posix would do that 23:44:41 ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely 23:44:41 due to being ported to every OS ever 23:44:43 including the apple ii 23:44:57 [23:44] ais523: ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely ← I'm hanging this up on the wall 23:44:57 it would more likely be a sysadmin problem, like out of disk space or overflowing log files 23:45:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:45:10 -!- ehird has joined. 23:45:11 Ups. 23:45:13 Usermode POSIX would be pretty sweet. 23:45:22 pikhq: Totally. 23:45:43 ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix sh 23:45:49 For those days when you want to take it slow. 23:45:55 ehird: I mean, clog's been going so long that it seems much more likely that it would break for config reasons than for code reasons 23:46:16 ais523: Yes, I was just pointing out that leaving a server doing shit unmaintainedly is not unheard of. 23:46:40 ehird: I assume that it would be designed like Linux from Scratch, to show itself as a single process and do all task-switching itself? 23:46:50 pikhq: yes, for portability 23:47:05 Hooray. 23:47:08 pikhq: does POSIX mandate elf? 23:47:16 write it in perfectly portable C, if you can 23:47:18 No. 23:47:30 ELF is a seperate standard. 23:47:34 http://216.14.122.182/images/28259tmp9.png <-- 23:47:38 ais523: no such thing 23:47:40 _too_ minimalistic for me 23:47:47 FireFly: *minimal 23:47:52 THAT IS NOT IRONIC IT IS CRINGEWORTHY. 23:48:05 Anyway, plug computers are fucking awesome. 23:48:06 ehird: you can get pretty portable 23:48:09 But I assume you meant the toolbar :P 23:48:13 especially with autoconf 23:48:20 Yeah, the toolbar 23:48:23 ais523: FUCK THAT 23:48:24 failing that, write in perfect theoretically portable C89 23:48:26 I'm never using autoconf, ever 23:48:27 also 23:48:30 I want to run this on an apple ii man 23:48:34 And yeah, I'm thinking of getting a sheevaplug 23:48:34 C64, even 23:48:44 iPhone! 23:48:48 Everything, pretty much. 23:48:49 ehird: Then you are in for a world of pain. 23:48:49 if C-INTERCAL doesn't run on a C64, I consider that a bug, although a low-priority one 23:49:01 pikhq: Call me when autoconf supports the ↑↑↑ 23:49:02 Portability is a royal bitch. 23:49:09 Autoconf is merely a *lesser* bitch. 23:49:13 pikhq: I'm basically going to abstract all the low-level stuff. 23:49:18 It won't use the host filesystem or anything 23:49:22 The C64? Only with cross-compiling, but sure. 23:49:36 It'll require writing tons of code for every platform anyway 23:49:47 and I'm never going to use auto*, ever, so don't even bother 23:49:49 The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it. 23:50:04 Okay, that's a royal assload of pain right there, ehird. 23:50:20 isn't it against apple's terms of service to put an open-source program onto the iphone? 23:50:23 no 23:50:35 [23:49] pikhq: The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it. 23:50:35 ↑ please stop talking 23:50:38 you have no idea what you're talking about 23:50:42 terminal.app from os x will not run on the iphone 23:50:43 at all 23:51:08 oh, I bet there's some way, but it probably involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery and is harder than just reimplementing 23:51:15 also, possibly, porting os x to os x 23:51:15 no 23:51:18 it doesn't have the libraries 23:51:22 ehird: so add them 23:51:22 it's a different architecture 23:51:23 etc 23:51:28 it would be a lot of work 23:51:34 god just shut the fuck up 23:51:36 ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE 23:51:38 which is why I made the comment about porting os x to itself 23:51:38 JUST EDIT THE UNIVERSE 23:51:44 TWIDDLE WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS A BIT 23:51:50 it's along the same lines as 23:51:54 HURR NO LANGUAGE IS BETTER THAN ANOTHERW 23:51:54 M-x butterfly 23:51:55 WHY? 23:51:57 BECAUSE TURING!!!!! 23:52:09 and i wish people would stop making such trivial, insipid, useless arguments based on suc hthings 23:52:20 ok, but you can at least expect people to be slightly pedantic here 23:52:23 after all, this is #esoteric 23:52:36 ehird: There is *a* Terminal.app for the iPhone. 23:52:45 It involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery. 23:52:45 is it called Terminal.app? 23:52:48 or something else? 23:52:50 pikhq: Genericword.app means the OS X version. 23:52:55 Mail.app, Terminal.app, etc. 23:52:56 You're currently breaking the Golden Rule of the Topic™ 23:53:00 Mobile*.app means a default iPhone app. 23:53:03 MobileSafari.app, etc. 23:53:10 FireFly: a rule forcing offtopicness is stupid 23:53:14 It ain't a default, it's a hack. 23:53:17 ais523: you're stupid. :P 23:53:23 Someone else wrote it and called it Terminal.app. 23:53:23 It's ontopic 23:53:25 pikhq: You're not reading what I said. 23:53:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only change one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 23:53:29 Uh, ah 23:53:33 There is something called Terminal.app. 23:53:34 It said except 23:53:41 "Terminal.app" is not a valid way to refer to it in general. 23:53:41 ehird: ITS NOT MY FAULT, SOMEONE ELSE NAMED IT THAT. 23:53:48 Because that means /Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app. 23:54:09 THERE IS A NAMESPACE COLLISION HERE, NOT A MISUNDERSTANDING, YOU DUMBTARD. 23:54:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:54:19 -!- ehird has changed nick to dear_my_inner_ra. 23:54:21 —pist 23:54:28 pikhq: I look forward to you referring to me in this way. 23:54:36 Who cares, after all, about ambiguity? 23:54:44 ehird: it's easy enough to just use your usual nick 23:55:08 Nighty 23:55:09 ais523: It's easy enough to say "an iPhone terminal app" instead of Terminal.app because the latter is used to mean the OS X default terminal, too. 23:55:17 yes 23:55:21 But apparently pikhq is bound to referring things only in the ways that their creators do. 23:55:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:55:31 so, how do you refer to the Plan 9 version of vi 23:55:39 given that the name is already taken? 23:55:40 I am not sure of your point, and can only conclude that you like to be an idiot. 23:55:43 Plan 9's vi, or if you're in #plan9, vi(1). 23:55:59 I've just had a stupid idea 23:56:00 pikhq: I'm sorry, next time I'll use diagrams instead of English. 23:56:05 porting programs to other man chapters 23:56:06 ais523: that's not uncommon. 23:56:13 e.g. we already have vim(1) as an editor 23:56:14 hmm, okay 23:56:17 ideas that bad are uncommon 23:56:18 dear_my_inner_ra: You're a retard. 23:56:24 pikhq: SHUT UP UR A FAG LOL 23:56:28 REEEETARD 23:56:32 we could have vim(8) designed to edit root-owned files 23:56:33 My point. 23:56:37 and vim(6) which wasn't entirely serious 23:56:43 and vim(2) the system call 23:56:52 And vim(n) the Tcl function. 23:57:01 vim(vim) 23:57:05 * ais523 wonders if vim(3perl) already exists 23:57:34 tcl and perl's manpage pollution is almost enough to get me to uninstall them 23:57:41 alas you can't really do that with perl unless you're an über-minimalist 23:58:05 hmm... quite a lot of vim-related modules on CPAN, but none are ports of vim 23:58:07 what a pity 23:58:29 ehird: they're accessible via the perldoc command too 23:58:40 -!- augur has joined. 23:58:41 there's probably some way to move it so perldoc accesses them and not vim 23:58:47 also, git is just as bad in terms of manpage pollution 23:59:17 no, it only pollutes git-* 23:59:20 you can't stumble upon that my accident 23:59:24 perl only pollutes perl* 23:59:30 no it doesn't 23:59:32 cf cpan modules 23:59:39 it's cpan that pollutes *::* 23:59:44 yeah yeah whatever 23:59:59 i don't care about your separation of perl and state^Wcpan, because nobody else does