00:00:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAAA_battery 00:01:08 look like bullets 00:02:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:02:24 Apparently the best way to get them is by fekking up your favorite 9-volt :P 00:03:10 why isn't there a battery that's superthin but very tall and wide? 00:03:15 like smartphone size 00:03:23 that's get some gooooood battery life 00:03:26 *that'd 00:08:45 ehird: might be quite hard to make, modern battery manufacture is inherently 3-dimensional 00:08:50 ais523: darn 00:08:52 well that sucks 00:09:03 I wouldn't think it would be impossible, but it would be very fiddly 00:09:22 intuitively it'd seem like it'd pack a LOT of battery life 00:09:34 hmm 00:09:37 ais523: it'd be heavy, wouldn't it? 00:09:55 relatively, most of it will be solid metal and the bits that aren't would be gel stuff 00:10:00 whereas things like phones are mostly air 00:10:47 ais523: are you sure about that? 00:10:51 i'm not sure my iphone is mostly air 00:11:08 ehird: the motherboard generally doesn't fit exactly 3-dimensionally into a case 00:11:13 it's an LCD, a board with multiple chips and volatile and non-volatile memory, speakers, ports, ... 00:11:16 and the inside of chips is also mostly air 00:11:17 ais523: i think the iphone's is close 00:11:22 heh 00:11:26 ais523: heatspreaders aren't air, are they? 00:11:33 they're half air, half metal 00:11:35 i mean, ok, an actual chip is gonna be mostly ... nothing 00:11:40 trying to get as much surface area as possible 00:11:44 mm 00:11:50 ais523: but it's an ARM chip 00:11:53 it doesn't get very hot 00:12:04 then it won't need a very big heatsink 00:12:08 ais523: it has none 00:12:12 just a heatspreader 00:12:18 like Intel Atom 00:12:21 it does, it'll be the wires connecting it to the motherboard 00:12:27 heh 00:12:30 they're a sort of rudimentary heatsink, that every chip has 00:12:39 sometimes it's enough by itself, for low powered things 00:12:44 occasionally the top of my iphone is sort of between warm and hot 00:12:51 as in, if i hold it there, i definitely notice it constantly 00:12:53 but it's fine to touch 00:12:55 I've actually seen chips where they added extra pins simply for the purpose of absorbing heat 00:12:58 and handle, etc 00:13:03 so 00:13:04 well, radiating it 00:13:10 but that's mostly the metal, I imagine 00:13:12 and plastic 00:13:13 and stuff 00:14:12 it's still going to be lighter than a battery, as the outside is going to be mostly plastic whereas batteries are mostly metal 00:14:33 ais523: http://makezine.com/hackszine/iphone_20070629.jpg http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/iPhone-Disassembled-3.jpg http://www.iphonebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/iphone-_3g_dismantle_2.jpg 00:14:37 the iphone hardware fits _exactly_ 00:14:43 that really doesn't surprise me at all 00:14:52 (note that the last one is the 3G and the previous two are the original, but) 00:15:00 it's a really tight fit 00:15:01 although unless all the chips on the board are exactly the same height, there'll still be air gaps vertically even with an exact fit 00:15:04 couldn't even fit a pin in there 00:18:38 also, you know what's awesome? 00:18:46 the palm pre has wireless charging. 00:18:55 "It's referred to as "The Puck," and you just click the back of the Pre onto its flat surface and the juice starts to flow." 00:18:59 needs more... wirelessosity, though. 00:19:07 like, say... across the room? :D 00:19:22 (at this point, ais523 tells me why that's totally impossible) 00:19:49 ehird: not impossible, although it will be hilariously inefficient unless the charge coil goes all the way around the room, say built into the walls 00:20:04 ais523: hmm, is that safe? 00:20:07 like, instead of microwaves 00:20:07 :P 00:20:08 -!- Pthing has joined. 00:20:11 gigantic microwaves. 00:20:24 megawaves? 00:20:27 ehird: who knows? it's used at low power in order to send information to hearing aids 00:20:27 lawl 00:20:44 I'm not sure if it's been researched what happens if you put enough power in there to charge a smartphone 00:21:08 if it is safe, let's put it in every building! 00:21:09 next time you see a sign saying "if you have a behind-the-ear hearing aid set it to T", you know there's an induction loop in the room 00:21:10 i hate wires. 00:21:13 I know a great wireless power solution. 00:21:18 Tesla coils. 00:21:22 ais523: i thought that was radio-powered or something 00:21:23 ;) 00:21:29 ehird: nope, it's induction 00:21:29 pikhq: nice way to kill yourself walking across the room :D 00:21:31 it'd be like the movies 00:21:35 with the crisscross of laser wires 00:21:38 except they kill you 00:21:49 ehird: you can't draw a whole lot of current from a tesla coil, quite likely you'd survive it 00:21:49 ehird: You realise that's what Tesla coils are for, right? 00:21:53 Wireless power? 00:22:14 pikhq: i was referring to the 00:22:22 ...what's it called 00:22:24 like 00:22:26 the spark thing 00:22:28 in between them 00:22:31 wow i get dumb sometimes 00:22:35 i know stuff on paper 00:22:46 ehird: as I said, you can't draw significant current from one of those 00:22:49 ... That would be a different bit of high-voltage stuff. 00:22:51 although the massive voltage sort-of cancels it out 00:22:57 ais523: what, it's safe to touch? 00:23:02 i find that hard to believe 00:23:05 ehird: Some are. 00:23:06 ehird: I've seen someone holding a flourescent light 00:23:09 and walking into a tesla coil 00:23:11 and the light lit up 00:23:15 haha 00:23:15 awesome 00:23:20 must have felt tingly 00:23:26 Very large coils are dangerous. 00:23:34 yes, you can make Tesla coils powerful enough to hurt a human 00:23:39 but most of the time you wouldn't 00:23:39 Those are generally not seen without metal cages around them. 00:23:53 i saw a video on youtube a year or two ago where a guy played the mario theme on a tesla coil 00:24:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1O2jcfOylU dunno if this was it, but 00:24:23 sounds great 00:24:35 and comes with built in visualiser! 00:24:41 Tesla intended to make coils large enough to be dangerous nearby, though. 00:24:49 Namely, he intended to use coils as a replacement for *the power grid*. 00:24:49 yes but tesla was a weirdo :D 00:25:12 pikhq: oh that thing where he wanted it to reverberate all the way through the earth to the other side for power? 00:25:14 yeah i remember that 00:25:25 tesla, while a genius, was also a huge kook :-) 00:25:35 ehird: For the return feed, you mean? 00:25:46 dunno 00:25:47 i just remember it 00:26:02 he wanted to give power to the entire world by shoving electricity through the earth 00:26:06 Uh, guess what. That's commonly done. Many rural areas have single-wire power transmission. 00:26:14 The negative end goes through the earth. 00:26:14 pikhq: to the other side of the world, man 00:26:18 wireless 00:26:19 you wouldn't have a power grid or anything 00:26:22 it'd be picked up from the ground 00:26:30 from the other. side. of. the. earth. 00:26:38 And the air. 00:26:41 nope 00:26:47 just earth for the power 00:26:48 IIRC 00:26:53 which was the kooky part 00:26:54 No. 00:26:57 hmm 00:27:05 His idea of the transmission distances where implausible, but it would work with regional coils. 00:27:49 heh, I sort-of get the idea; if you could set up an oscillation in earth potential, then you could average it out with a capacitor or something 00:27:58 and get an AC potential between the averaged value and the actual value 00:28:00 and power stuff with it 00:28:13 wow would that take a lot of energy to set up, though 00:28:19 An Idea That Doesn't Actually Work But Would Be Awesome: Put two tesla coils at opposite ends of the earth. Make them buzz together. 00:28:22 Earth's core fuck yeah 00:28:30 ais523: hey, we have infinite energy amirite? 00:28:36 ehird: unfortunately not 00:28:38 oops it's the 21st century never mind 00:29:22 A far more practical method of power transmission involves radio waves. 00:29:36 i want a dyson sphere 00:29:44 The only limiting factor is that high power is fucking dangerous. 00:29:52 pikhq: well that's the thing 00:29:56 we COULD just use really fucking powerful microwavse 00:29:58 pikhq: microwaves work too 00:29:58 microwaves 00:30:03 hey, the electronics might survive it :) 00:30:04 ais523: snap 00:30:12 ehird: you /can/ get power from radio waves, though 00:30:15 ais523: Microwaves are high-frequency radio waves. 00:30:20 IIRC there's a watch or something which is powered by radio waves in the area 00:30:27 pikhq: no, they're both forms of TEM 00:30:38 but people don't normally use radio to mean microwave, just like they don't use radio to mean optical frequency light 00:30:39 ais523: Shaddup. 00:31:03 wow, we should figure out how to do audio radio programs with visible light 00:31:15 it'd be like adverts showing off mobile internt 00:31:16 internet 00:31:19 with the streams of light hitting your phoen 00:31:20 phone 00:31:30 ais523: Note that microwaves are the frequencies between 0.3 GHz and 300 GHz. 00:31:35 And that we deal with 2.4 GHz radios. 00:31:41 ;) 00:31:48 pikhq: that's due to researchers arguing about where the cutoff should be 00:32:00 ehird: visible light disperses too easily 00:32:10 although, that might be a viable option underwater, because radio doesn't work there 00:32:15 xD 00:32:18 pity that sonar's better there, visible would be so much cooler 00:32:27 "we could do radio underwater except we can't do radio udnerwater" 00:32:37 ehird: I meant, visible light communication 00:32:43 it just gets absorbed too easily, though 00:32:44 yeah :P 00:34:19 still, microwaves are /even worse/ underwater, at various frequences 00:34:26 they just heat it up and only go a few centimeters 00:34:44 I vote we use gamma rays. 00:34:50 I vote we use SPIT. 00:34:57 "Oh, I'm volunteering with the BBC" 00:34:58 what about neutrinos? 00:34:59 "Spitting radio" 00:35:02 "I'm a relay" 00:35:14 we can just set up huge stations with tons of people spitting different kinds of spit 00:35:14 I've heard it argued that people should communicate using neutrinos, after all they go through just about everything 00:35:20 the problem is, they're basically impossible to detect 00:35:22 and people in the next collecting them in buckets and respitting 00:35:35 your radio comes with a big bucket attached to collect the spit and process it 00:35:37 due to going through just about everything 00:35:37 How's about tachyons? 00:35:46 ;p 00:35:47 pikhq: <3 00:35:49 that'd be awesome 00:35:59 "3 hours ago, we will be playing the new hit single, ..." 00:36:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:36:20 International Tachyon Causality-Avoidance Network. Intertacanet. 00:36:46 Causality Attention Crusaders, Associated. 00:36:48 CACA. 00:36:53 They don't want none. 00:37:04 (IT MEANS POO LOL) 00:38:44 kitty? where? 00:38:51 wat 00:39:07 GregorR! 00:39:07 http://gizmodo.com/5320587/samsung-worlds-thinnest-watchphone-also-happens-to-be-one-of-the-worlds-only-watchphones 00:39:09 Get it. 00:39:12 It has a touchscreen. 00:40:54 ... so does mine. 00:41:03 It's not the thinnest, though. 00:41:12 I'll bet it's ludicrously fucking expensive. 00:41:42 The first wave of releases will be scattered throughout Europe, starting in France, where the S9110 will retail for around $650. 00:41:49 * coppro starts wondering why more languages don't allow whitespace in identifiers, then ducks 00:41:49 Like I said. 00:41:50 Ehh. The top iPhone 3G S costs more. 00:41:50 Sure. But owning it is justification for practicing a Bond impersonation. 00:41:55 So. 00:42:00 coppro: Genera does, IIRC. 00:42:04 Since its commands had spaces in. 00:42:04 pikhq: I - have - a - watch - phone. 00:42:05 coppro: Tcl does. 00:42:06 so does ALGOL-68 00:42:09 I don't know if the underlying Lisp did. 00:42:20 Maybe so; (defun |I Like Big Butts And I Cannot Lie| (foo) ...) 00:42:21 GregorR: That's awesome. 00:42:23 I'm not saying there aren't any 00:42:34 I'm just saying I'm wondering why more don't 00:42:39 #;1> (define (|Hello, world!| x) x) 00:42:39 #;2> (|Hello, world!| 2) 00:42:40 GregorR: So, practising a Bond impersonation? 00:42:41 2 00:42:43 chicken scheme 00:42:55 coppro: anyway, because whitespace usually separates shit 00:42:56 coppro: it's still fun to enumerate the ones that do 00:43:12 ooh, sorear thinks INTERCAL allows whitespace anywhere, including inside keywords 00:43:15 but it's just ignored 00:43:26 yes, I believe that's the case 00:43:30 proc {This is an absurdly long proc with a bunch of spaces} {args} {put $args} ;# Perfectly valid. 00:43:40 pikhq: yes but tcl sucks :P 00:43:48 ehird: quoted identifiers don't count 00:43:56 coppro: that's all yer gonna get 00:44:10 I wonder if anyone's made a tablet whose pen's tip is actually a tiny ball that rolls around. 00:44:12 it could be smoother 00:44:16 coppro: Sorry, by default in Tcl, the space is a token seperator. 00:44:19 Also, there's an esolang on the wiki that's 100% agnostic to whitespace 00:44:29 Written by a python guy tired of people complaining about it :) 00:44:37 I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other 00:44:51 coppro: type foo;? 00:44:58 Also, Glass lets you have have space in an identifier. 00:44:59 yes 00:45:00 Algol-68 didn't have consecutive identifiers anywhere IIRC 00:45:13 possibly user-defined types, I'm not sure about that 00:45:14 coppro: typedef butt ass; 00:45:22 but it would have been ambiguous because it allowed spaces in identifiers 00:45:22 (multiple-character identifiers are bad style in Glass) 00:45:24 ehird: that's technically a declaration 00:45:29 also, it had italic and bold 00:45:31 00:44 coppro: I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other 00:45:33 it's two identifiers 00:45:34 one after another 00:45:38 yes 00:45:48 ehird: yes, C's grammar is stupid, it treats typedef a b; the same way as static a b; 00:45:51 so they're both the same case 00:45:56 ^^ 00:45:58 what, really? 00:46:00 yes 00:46:00 ehird: yes 00:46:12 Wow. 00:46:12 even though they're semantically completely different, they're gramattically the same 00:46:32 Actually, they are semantically similar 00:46:41 ais523: but with a typedef or static tag, surely 00:46:45 typedef just indicates to declare a type, not an object 00:47:07 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting ← did anyone ever consider whether this is TC? 00:47:15 what? I don't recognise that page 00:47:17 is it new? 00:47:20 (t if c else f) means (if c then t else f) 00:47:20 or so old I never saw it? 00:47:22 ais523: no, 2007 old 00:47:25 blahbot` era 00:47:26 remember blahbot`? 00:47:33 %command prefix 00:47:33 only the name 00:47:34 ais523: aka %wapr 00:47:37 I can't even remember what it did 00:47:40 lots of things 00:47:53 ais523: anyway, to explain the list of commands: 00:48:04 CHARACTER tape description -> operation 00:48:16 so 00:48:20 $ takes the top two elements and adds them 00:48:23 % duplicates 00:48:26 " negates 00:48:34 ! considers the top element 00:48:52 if it's 0, then it jumps to the third-from-top element thingy 00:48:54 otherwise second 00:49:01 and # does some reshaping; obvious from the example 00:49:01 the program's stored on the tape? 00:49:08 see, that I don't remember 00:49:12 i'll have to think 00:49:18 or does it have some sort of mental line numbering? 00:49:29 ais523: i'm thinking 00:49:37 hm well 00:49:43 jumping to -1 is exiting (as well as exciting) 00:49:47 so 00:49:52 we can conclude it's not stored on the tape 00:49:57 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 00:49:58 (more a stack really) 00:49:59 because, 00:50:08 -1 isn't ascii 00:50:12 but yeah it wasn't on the top 00:50:12 tape 00:50:19 ais523: i think it was just position 00:50:22 it uses bignums, iirc 00:50:33 you can only use visible characters, though, i think 00:50:38 depends on the modulo/- logic 00:50:42 so you'd have to add a bunch up 00:50:54 could you use the tape as a queue, somehow? 00:50:59 but, it has the ability to keep two bignums on the stack 00:51:03 ah, aha 00:51:06 so Minsky-style 00:51:06 so 00:51:12 ais523: well, at least 00:51:14 i'm trying to reduce it 00:51:25 I think the TCness will hinge on # and ! 00:51:35 i'm not sure ! is enough on its own, but I think # and ! may be 00:51:38 with $ to do conditional 00:51:38 s 00:51:50 (adding stuff then jumping to it) 00:52:12 hmm 00:52:16 * ehird tries to figure out how # works 00:52:18 ah 00:52:27 the secondtopmost value is X 00:52:30 the topmost is Y 00:52:40 we pop them 00:52:40 then 00:52:55 it takes the Xmost element 00:52:58 and moves it forwards Y places 00:52:58 I think 00:53:07 yep 00:53:09 wait 00:53:13 -1 removes it though 00:53:16 so i'm not quite sure 00:53:34 i shoulda commented better 00:53:39 the implementation will be on the other machine 00:55:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:56:16 ais523: intuitively do you think it's TC or not? 00:56:17 i'll say yes 00:56:31 it doesn't look obviously non-TC 00:56:46 and pretty much every lang which isn't obviously non-TC turns out to be TC 00:56:51 excepting maybe Dupdog and Xigxag 00:56:55 you can rearrange arbitrary bignums at will, add and subtract values destructively and non-destructively, and do a 100% malleable jump operation 00:57:12 which seems pretty much TC to me 00:57:15 that meets all 3 elements of the 'almost certainly TC' checklist 00:57:30 * Sgeo wants to hurt Firefox right now 00:57:30 arbitrary access to infinite storage 00:57:35 arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point 00:57:36 on the other hand, i expect programming in it would be excruciatingly difficult 00:57:39 and whatever the third one was, too 00:57:42 apart from really trivial stuff 00:57:49 ehird: couldn't you translate a Minsky machine into it more or less directly? 00:57:54 ais523: well, yes, but 00:57:55 because of # referring to a position 00:58:03 Why does Firefox take an eternity to load? 00:58:03 if you need an extra char for your loop offset 00:58:06 it increases by one 00:58:15 that's just a linking step 00:58:15 And I'm not using Firefox 3.5.0 00:58:16 any change of the program length or rearrangement implies many others 00:58:21 ais523: i'm talking about manually 00:58:24 ah, ok 00:58:25 like, a human. 00:58:27 so agreed, it's TC? 00:58:37 i'll have to prove it before i can agree 00:58:39 but almost certainly 00:58:48 people used to link by hand for ages, before assemblers were invented 01:00:00 i'm quite proud of the language, it's very generic and orthogonal and the sheer mindbogglingness of organizing a program comes naturally 01:00:20 I picked the name wapr before the official one 01:00:24 then oklopol (I think) said he thought "Jumping to -1 is exiting." said "exciting" instead 01:00:38 so i decided to do an INTERCAL and officially name it something completely different 01:00:51 fair enough 01:01:34 Is the wiki not working? 01:01:43 it was but works now 01:04:38 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Support-Should-Never-Be-Necessary.aspx 01:05:31 ------------------------------------------------- 01:05:31 ISSUE #88318 01:05:32 ------------------------------------------------- 01:05:34 Client Issue: 01:05:36 "your getting than you used to be" 01:05:38 (That's the entirety of the message from the client.) 01:05:40 Problem Point: 01:05:42 While it is unclear whether or not this is actually a complaint, what is 01:05:44 clear is that the technician's "getting" is in some way different than the 01:05:46 technician himself was at some point in the past. 01:05:48 Improvement Goal: 01:05:50 Each technician should take better care of his "getting", to ensure that 01:05:52 it stops differing from how the technician used to be. That way, the 01:05:54 technician will potentially be praised by the client with the commendation 01:05:56 that, "your getting is now exactly the same as you are now". And those are 01:05:58 the type of praises that result in raises. 01:09:35 "When I use default iPod software[…]Why can't I edit filenames" 01:09:44 This just in: people REALLY CARE about the internal filesystem of their MP3 players. 01:13:31 long pase o channel :( 01:13:42 ehird: doesn't actually surprise me 01:13:42 *long paste to channel :( 01:13:45 Long paste of channel. 01:13:46 coppro: what's happened to your 't' key? 01:13:56 ais523: which part? 01:14:00 something got stuck under it 01:14:10 ehird: people upset that they couldn't edit filenames on the iPod 01:14:13 ah 01:14:31 KDE is moving to Git. 01:14:35 Hooray for KDE. 01:14:38 Hooray for Git. 01:15:10 ais523: i believe the ipod uses filenames like ff34-fea5f-f845f-37fy745.mp3 anyway 01:15:11 or wait 01:15:21 it might use 03 Track Name.mp3 but in GUID directories 01:15:23 yeah, I think it's that 01:15:25 -!- X-Scale has joined. 01:15:33 {35f45-f8234-f835j-fah45-c7wh4}/foo.mp3 01:15:35 X-Scale: hi. 01:15:37 who're you? 01:15:58 -!- X-Scale has left (?). 01:16:18 okay 01:17:06 ais523: I found the best page on the esolang wiki 01:17:11 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic 01:17:12 [[There's no explanation as to why anyone would want to use this -T]] 01:17:19 never has our philosophy been summed up more concisely 01:17:30 yes 01:18:09 is that new? 01:18:17 or are you just random-page-surfing? 01:18:22 recent changes 01:18:23 so new 01:18:38 you should reply, then 01:19:09 but that'd destroy its beauty & simplicity 01:19:26 it's an oasis of perfect, nay ideal, incomprehension at the wiki, that reflects the exact purpose of it! 01:21:38 i wonder if you can get therapy for inability to use killfiles 01:21:46 whenever i do anything of the sort, i always manually click to view every single message 01:21:49 i just can't not :| 01:21:54 it's irritating because i get more stupid in my bran 01:21:56 brain 01:22:01 although i guess you could put stupid in bran flakes 01:24:46 maybe you can get a pension for using "killfiles" old grampa USENET 01:25:06 * ehird is the oldest 13 year old ever 01:25:30 (actually being the oldest N year old would be rather trivial; make sure nobody was born at the exact same time as you and voila, a split second before your birthday) 01:27:47 Also trivial is having been the youngest person alive. 01:28:04 Yes. 01:28:56 * coppro would find it hard to believe that ehrid is 13... but... 01:29:44 I don't; I remember me at 13. 01:30:19 coppro: ehrid is an ex-partnership; Quazie seemed to refer to em a lot. 01:30:22 perhaps you mean ehird? 01:30:29 yes 01:30:30 also, consider me vaguely offended or somesuch. 01:30:35 VAGUELY OFFENDED. 01:30:44 pikhq: yes, that's precisely the same thought I have 01:30:50 oh 01:30:56 it wasn't calling me immature (well ok it could be that too) 01:30:59 vaguely unoffended! 01:31:05 vaguely… neutral? 01:31:13 let's go with vaguely neutral. 01:31:20 then we need to destroy you 01:31:29 we all know the problem with neutrals 01:31:41 /////////////// 01:32:36 granted, I didn't spend quite as much of my time with programming theory 01:33:03 i blame having a computer at 3 and the interwebs at 5 01:33:12 (well, more thank than blame) 01:33:33 for the most part, that describes my life too 01:33:49 yeah, but the internet was well-formed when i got on 01:33:54 that's true 01:34:25 * coppro really needs to pick up a book on formal language theory 01:34:35 like what part 01:34:38 it's a huge field 01:35:14 Freaking gigantic. 01:35:24 the basics, of course 01:35:50 books >>> everything else 01:42:51 Well, that's a decent idea (though I think that this channel would do a nice job of teaching that) 01:43:08 I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with at least the basics of formal language theory, after all. 01:43:47 I agree 01:44:04 But I like reading books 01:44:24 Fair enough. 01:44:45 (and, as you may have noticed me mention, I discovered my public library card gives me limited access to the local university library) 01:45:35 Nice. 01:46:49 piracy yay 01:47:25 [18:44:03]But I like reading books <-- does not apply to PDFs, unless I waste a ton of money printing them 01:47:30 and getting them bound 01:48:38 get an ebook reader foo 01:48:43 ipaper fuck yeah 01:52:52 pikhq: http://stephenmann.net/2009/07/17/cool-haskell-function/ 01:53:38 :t pair . (map f *** id) . unpair 01:53:45 oh no \bot 01:53:46 oh well 01:53:47 bye 02:22:07 Is InstantDjango a decent way of playing with Django? 02:29:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:30:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:55:15 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to Soushokuon. 02:56:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 02:58:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Client Quit). 04:28:39 straw poll: a language spec says that a side-effect of a function is to increase (not increment) a variable. Does this mean the increase has to be by one, or can it be arbitrary? 04:29:36 I believe that setting a variable to infinity is a valid interpretation. 05:05:39 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:07:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:10:54 -!- immibis has joined. 05:12:54 -!- immibis has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON -- The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 05:12:58 for those of us without utf-8 05:16:31 immibis: The lack of UTF-8 is a crime. 05:17:42 Punishable by death. 05:54:27 Lack of UTF-8 in what? 05:56:15 V̅i̅v̅o̅. 05:56:53 anyone explain what that says? 05:58:20 Y̅o̅u̅ ̅s̅u̅c̅k̅,̅ ̅I̅ ̅b̅e̅l̅i̅e̅v̅e̅…̅ 05:59:12 I suck, you believe? 06:01:03 Jes. 06:02:06 it appears to me as "You suck, I believe", except with `I... between characters (`I represents I with ` above it) 06:03:49 Jeeze. 06:03:54 Enter the 90s, man! 06:04:08 well this client works for everything else 06:04:20 apart from having randomly placed blue gradients 06:04:26 The lack of Unicode is a fundamental flaw. 06:04:40 oh and being written in vb, but i don't need to know that to use it 06:05:09 You really need to enter the 21st century. 06:06:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:07:26 -!- coppro has joined. 06:07:57 For, þou ſeeſt, Unicode be all powerful, and þy client is not. Doeſt þou comprehend? 06:15:28 For, thou eet, Unicode will be all powerful and thy client is not. Doet thou comprehend? <-- ? 06:15:47 copy-pasting the text into google tells me that it means 06:15:49 obviously wrong 06:16:33 Long s. 06:16:44 Also, how did þorn turn into th? 06:17:06 i guessed, it fits the words and the sentence 06:17:11 For, thou seest, Unicode will be all powerful, and thy client is not. Doest thou comprehend? <-- makes sense 06:17:32 And why art þou adding "will" to yonder ſentence? 06:17:43 Keep in mind that this is a channel where long s and diaresis are in common use. You need some Unicode. 06:18:03 Especially if we get to a discussion of, say, reëntrant code or some such. 06:21:24 i can tell that re(a~)(<<)ntrant code means reentrant code 06:21:49 WHY DO YOU ACCEPT MOJIBAKE‽ 06:22:37 Enter the 21st century. ASCII is dead. 06:22:47 (really: not even Windows is using it any more) 06:30:04 Hey, I forgot that I was capitalizing all my Nouns today. 06:30:17 And I'm assuming that "today" is a Pronoun or an Adverb or something. :-P 06:30:42 Hey, Wiktionary says it is an Adverb. 06:31:43 I suddenly feel like I shouldn't be using the Word "hey" so much. 06:33:22 Why Are You Capitalizing All Your nouns Today? 06:33:34 Because that's what People used to do. 06:33:41 People who speak German still do it. 06:34:11 It makes what I write kind of resemble something written long ago. 06:34:56 Capitalizing other Stuff just makes you contrary. :-P 06:34:58 You can ſee this in the Constitution, where the founding Fathers uſed it in their Writing. 06:35:37 Indeed. 06:35:50 Looks quite nice, I find. 06:35:54 And yes, they alſo uſed long S. 06:35:58 Indeed, it does. 06:36:11 Of course, you can always do this elsewise, and simply not use those things at all. 06:36:17 Shame that I am finding it difficult to uſe Nouns. :P 06:36:30 Look, nothing in what I'm writing now is either common or proper. 06:36:41 It's sometimes easier to not use them than to use them. 06:36:58 which code point is ſ 06:36:59 Those who speak more concretely probably find them more useful than those who speak more abstractly. 06:37:39 immibis: U+017F 06:38:29 I guess it is kind of difficult to talk about them without using them, seeing as how one can't well define them without using them. 06:39:25 Okay, Noun Time. 06:41:10 Clearly, we ʃould always capitalize all our Nouns and also use Greek Letters instead of digraφs. 06:41:37 You know, ſ and ʃ are not necessarily very easy to distinguiʃ between. 06:42:10 Ʃall I set þe Topic to say "HOLY ƩIT"? 06:43:54 you mean digrafs 06:44:22 No, Digraφs. It is very important to preserve etymological Stuff. 06:44:55 Like þe Distinction between c and k. 06:45:26 Þough I am planning to mess some of þat up by using Diacritics. 06:46:50 Þə qwick brown Fox jumps ōvər þə lāzē Dôg. 06:47:46 Whət ə wəndərfəl Wərld! 06:48:02 * coppro considers /ignore Warrigal 06:48:37 * pikhq considers /ignore ASCII heathens 06:49:02 Now, þat Sentənç sēmd wrông. Evrē Vowəl wəs ə Sĉwo. 06:49:06 Aand I'm finished. 06:49:49 I really should find a dialect in which short u and schwa are more clearly distinguished. 06:50:07 pikhq: nothing against Unicode. Something against trying your best to use foreign letters and diacritics to speak 06:51:44 coppro: My uſage of ſ, þ, and ̈ is not exactly foreign. 06:51:53 yours isn't, no 06:51:56 'Tis merely archaic. 06:52:04 Warrigal, on the other hand... 06:52:20 He's merely fiddling with ſpelling reform. 06:52:30 Poorly. 06:52:50 btw, Warrigal, you forgot å and ø 06:53:12 No, I just didn't have use for them. :-P 06:53:50 pikhq: am I doing anything in particular wrong? 06:54:36 nonsense 06:54:57 Warrigal: You have 26 letters to work with. Go! 06:55:13 There is nå wøy to stop their use! 06:55:52 Sō Ī'll hav tə stop mī Dīgraph rəplāçmənt. :-P 06:56:01 Oops, I used an extra letter. 06:56:13 Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt. :-P 06:56:33 If anyone has a list showing conversions from Unicode characters to the closest ASCII character that would be useful for my script 06:57:35 immibis: RM. 06:57:40 RM? 06:57:45 Delete your client. 06:57:52 It is a pox on the Internet. 06:57:58 It's like using IE4. 06:58:07 Find me another 06:58:22 Fucking netcat would be an improvement. 06:58:23 Must be free, run on windows and support scripting (any language) 06:58:30 Irssi. 06:58:41 and have a gui. 06:58:57 Xchat. 06:59:06 Not free on Windows. 06:59:12 Emacs. 06:59:17 seriously? 06:59:19 ... Wait, what? 06:59:39 But, yeah; Emacs has an IRC client. 06:59:41 ERC. 07:00:10 ... 07:00:29 I'm just naming clients off the top of my head, BTW. 07:00:33 Use t3h google. 07:00:34 ChatZilla? 07:00:49 That seems to be free and run on windows and support scripting and have a GUI. 07:01:09 Though the platform isn't Windows but Mozilla or something. 07:03:47 The platform is XUL. 07:35:24 can someone repeat one of the earlier lines including utf-8 characters so i can test this script 07:36:20 immibis: Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt 07:37:13 Also, φ and ə. 07:39:21 [18:36] immibis: Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt 07:39:21 [18:36] immibis: SO i'll hav t stop mI DIgraph rplAmnt 07:39:44 close enough i suppose 07:39:44 That's one way of doing it. 07:40:05 Just removing the diacritics would result in "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt". 07:40:37 iconv -f utf8 -t ascii//translit: "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt". That's pretty much what it does there. 07:41:29 fizzie: what does that do to φ and ə? 07:41:36 ?s, I think. 07:41:38 Why does [18:41] fizzie: what does that do to ? and ?? 07:41:54 as i said, i only implemented latin extended-a and latin extended-b 07:42:36 It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (Α) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?. 07:42:59 this is windows - i don't have any command line tools such as iconv 07:43:01 [18:42] It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (?) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?. 07:43:41 Tell them ə should be @ for me. :-P 07:51:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:52:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:21:58 -!- randomity has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:23:17 -!- randomity has joined. 08:23:33 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:25:13 -!- coppro has joined. 08:29:57 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:46:18 http://comonad.com/haskell/remorse-1.0/remorse.hs 08:47:02 I hate you 08:47:09 * coppro wonders if it is possible to express an indentation grammar in EBNF 08:48:56 * coppro thinks it is not 08:50:03 -!- randomity has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:51:14 of course, if you have your lexer create indentation tokens, then you can 08:55:56 -!- randomity has joined. 08:58:51 ? 08:59:02 ? about remorse.hs i mean 09:02:18 -!- randomity has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:02:21 -!- randomity has joined. 09:05:38 immibis: ( edwardk) that was written by malcolm wallace and won the 0th annual IOHCC competition 09:11:24 ok 09:19:30 -!- Soushokuon has quit (Connection timed out). 09:45:57 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:46:38 -!- coppro has joined. 11:09:02 -!- nooga has joined. 11:10:58 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 11:42:06 -!- ehird has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON — The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 11:43:13 05:58 pikhq: Xchat. 11:43:13 05:59 immibis: Not free on Windows. 11:43:14 immibis: Silverex, stupid 11:44:26 -!- AnMaster has joined. 11:56:48 * ehird has a mouse that works better if you blow the top of it 11:56:53 ... 11:56:54 blow on to 12:00:03 ehird, err ok... 12:00:38 AnMaster: it makes it conduct electricity better; it's a mighty-mouse, so that's important for the circuit underneath to recognize which side my finger is on 12:00:50 ehird, heh... 12:00:57 thus, blowing on to the top of the mouth temporarily makes right clicks more reliable (my mighty mouse has taken a lot of beating so it kinda sucks) 12:01:05 *top of the mouse 12:01:13 ehird, just once in a while or very often? 12:01:32 it wears off in like less than a minute 12:01:40 btw, I guess there is no warranty? Products usually start having problems after the warranty only... 12:01:52 oh there's a warranty, from december 2006 :P 12:02:03 ehird, that ended by now then? 12:02:12 unless it is 3 years 12:02:12 it ended a year after it begun. 12:02:20 got a keyboard replaced with it tho 12:02:27 they gave me a different layout tho :D 12:02:36 (US instead of UK, but that's fine) 12:02:55 also keycaps were italics instead of straight, and uppercase instead of — iirc — lowercase, and the graphic on the option key changed. iirc. 12:07:57 * AnMaster sighs... 12:08:15 The university I'm starting at this autumn seems to have some issues with their website: 12:08:29 * Self signed certs for creating account with mismatching domain name 12:08:34 * Lots of 404s. 12:08:41 I can only hope they will fix it soon. 12:08:57 people don't watch those things 12:09:00 every uni website has 404s 12:09:08 and certificates are very often fucked up 12:09:17 ehird, for the instruction for connecting to WLAN? https://shib1.oru.se/account/startnet/Wlan_windowsXP.pdf 12:09:28 not sure if the cert works on that page... 12:09:41 https://shib1.oru.se/account/index.jsp 12:09:43 maybe you have to sign in. 12:09:53 AnMaster: safari recognizes it as no-cert 12:09:58 ehird, ah no, can't do that, there is another 404 that prevents me creating an account... 12:10:03 ehird, "no-cert"? 12:10:10 it doesn't present it as a secure site 12:10:15 no indication of a certificate etc 12:10:33 ehird, well true. But it is https, and that means there is a cert. Except a broken one. 12:10:41 prolly works in IE 12:10:44 prolly tough shit 12:10:49 try it in IE 12:11:29 ehird, well my laptop will be delivered on Monday or so. It will have "Vista Bullshit Edition" err I meant "Business" 12:11:40 so meh, can always try then 12:11:46 before I install linux 12:11:55 AnMaster: heh, unlucky you; in a few months everything'll be 7 12:12:05 although i think manufacturers are offering free upgrades to 7 for people who get suckered or sth 12:12:09 ehird, so? I won't run vista much 12:12:20 i don't think you realise quite how horrific vista is to use 12:12:31 ehird, no, I never used anything newer than xp 12:12:44 anyway, I'm going to install xp under virtualbox I guess. 12:13:17 oh btw about xp... I wonder what will happen to those "activation" key thingies in the future. Will it be possible to activate XP in 25 years for example? 12:13:19 Probably not 12:14:04 ehird, how bad/good is 7? I haven't followed the discussion 12:14:17 7 is good. 12:14:23 like, better than XP. 12:14:30 really? 12:14:34 yes 12:14:54 mhm 12:15:04 anyway. I wonder which distro I shall use... 12:15:10 arch probably 12:15:11 vista internal reworkings + dropping some backwards compatibility (anything that worked on vista still works, so... just about anything; this may have been by mistake, but) + making the UI nicer + lots and lots of speed improvements 12:15:48 ehird, dropping backwards compat? So XP stuff might break? 12:15:56 XP stuff that doesn't run on Vista. 12:15:58 can you run office XP on vista btw? Just wondering. 12:16:02 i.e., nothing + epsilon. 12:16:14 epsilon 12:16:14 AnMaster: there's no such thing as office xp 12:16:20 oh as in the math term 12:16:23 yes. 12:16:28 I thought it was some software called that first 12:16:35 ehird, office 2002? 12:16:48 oh wait, office xp does exist 12:16:57 ehird, yes I have the box somewhere even I think 12:16:59 *shrug* 12:17:18 i'm not sure why you'd want to run office, but 12:17:41 ehird, I don't... But I don't know what I will need for uni. And openoffice is quite painful 12:17:48 LaTeX! 12:18:11 AnMaster: re arch — bwahaha! "For this course we will be using Python. Please install Python now." "# emerge python" (5 minutes pass) "Okay, now start up Python. If you're using Windows, you can…" "Compiling dependency5467 (24%)… (25%)…" (tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock) "Okay, and that about wraps it up for today!" "Compiling… 100%" "# " 12:18:18 ehird, I will have to check what formats they accept. But if possible I will probably use latex 12:18:19 (i.e. arch as opposed to gentoo) 12:18:25 AnMaster: render latex to pdf, dood 12:18:27 like everyone else :P 12:18:32 ehird, not so with python 12:18:40 since emerge is a python script 12:18:44 but yeah... 12:18:48 sheesh i spent all that time writing that joke and you have to go trample on it :D 12:18:50 *spend 12:18:53 but that specific example didn't work very well :P 12:18:54 well ok i wrote it in a few seconds 12:18:56 mostly transcription 12:19:18 ehird, also you clearly never used emerge... :P 12:19:27 since that output was unrealistic :D 12:19:36 anyway I'm going for arch probably yes 12:19:43 thankfully i never have 12:20:31 debian probably have more packages 12:20:33 however 12:20:39 I'm so not going to use debian 12:20:45 they fuck up too often 12:21:05 wat 12:21:06 seriously? 12:21:07 and yes I'm referring to things like the ssh key fuckup for example. 12:21:15 yes, that was a huge fuckup 12:21:22 it's also the only one in debian's whole history 12:21:32 of 14 years at the time 12:21:40 ehird, also I read on thinkwiki about issues with debian patched kernels and thinkpad ultrabays 12:21:49 because they patch it to use the old driver 12:21:51 if debian were me, i'd have never made a mistake or been angry now :P 12:21:53 instead of the new pata layer 12:22:05 AnMaster: how old's that page? 12:22:19 ehird, well I checked the bug report. it was still marked as "open" for 2.6.27 kernel 12:22:28 last activity? 12:22:45 goom 12:22:46 ehird, iirc early june 12:22:51 but I don't have the page open atm 12:22:52 hmm 12:22:58 maybe late may 12:24:03 anyway. arch have a policy of not patching unless it is a patch from upstream or very very urgent and important. So it tends to follow upstream pretty closely 12:24:29 I'm definitely going for a vanilla kernel anyway 12:26:15 ehird, what are the differences between 64-bit on Intel and AMD? IIRC there is something like one or two instructions that differ. Like Intel not having one and AMD not having another? 12:26:22 (this excludes all SSE* and such) 12:26:27 (which differs more) 12:26:28 no, i don't think that's true. 12:26:33 why? 12:26:42 ehird, maybe it was only early Intel ones that were affected 12:26:53 prolly 12:27:19 AnMaster: amd laptops are basically a bad idea, though; the power consumption and heat output is just too much 12:27:38 ehird, my sempron doesn't run hot however :P 12:27:50 AnMaster: that's because it has a big heatsink on top of it 12:27:54 that, even without a fan, is thicker than a laptop. 12:27:56 much thicker. 12:29:19 ah yes the LAHF and SAHF instructions 12:29:26 * ehird lahfs. 12:29:30 but Intel added it in December 2005 12:29:46 yeah 12:30:12 SAHF: Store AH into Flags 12:30:24 LAHF: Load Status Flags into AH Register 12:30:45 I have no idea why this is useful 12:30:55 core 2 (based on Core architecture) was released in 2006 and that was, iirc, their first consumer-level 64-bit chip 12:31:03 rather, AMD64 12:31:10 i think pentium 4-based Xeons got it first or something like months before but nobody used them. 12:31:15 Loads the SF, ZF, AF, PF, and CF flags of the EFLAGS register with values from the corresponding 12:31:15 bits in the AH register (bits 7, 6, 4, 2, and 0, respectively). The instruction ignores bits 1, 3, and 5 of 12:31:15 register AH; it sets those bits in the EFLAGS register to 1, 0, and 0, respectively. 12:31:19 that is SAHF 12:31:19 so not gonna be a problem 12:31:24 any idea why that is useful? 12:31:29 dunno 12:32:49 oh I think it means you can set/read several status flags in one go 12:32:51 not sure 12:33:29 * ehird reads how about korean politics revolve around physically fighting the other party to stop laws being passed: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/93pt7/korean_parliament_erupts_in_allout_brawl_over/c0bbip6 12:33:39 fuck democracy, this is clearly better 12:33:42 brawlocracy 12:33:59 http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2009/07/22/GYH2009072200100004400_P2.jpg ← i can't believe the news would actually make this :D 12:34:02 crazy 12:34:06 meh wait 12:34:07 crazy 12:34:08 even 12:34:12 that way it lines up 12:34:17 "here's a quick summary of today's parliamental fight!" 12:34:52 ehird, what are the red explosion like thingies? 12:35:16 i hope red explosions, but probably people hitting each other. 12:35:43 about that reddit link 12:35:44 tactical grenades! 12:35:51 one of the comments: "Basically, this is just a Korean version of filibuster, nothing more." <-- heh 12:36:03 filibustamove 12:36:04 yeah filibusters are pretty undemocratic too 12:36:23 filibusters are perfectly democratic 12:36:26 it's just a different type of vote 12:37:05 "And after each brawl, some media outlets will show the battle maps and each parties' strategic notes and explain where the turning point in the battle was." <-- crazy... 12:37:15 it's like they considered it pretty normal and sane... 12:37:37 presumably they have been doing it for many decades 12:37:41 or at least some years 12:38:17 ehird, sure this isn't a hoax? 12:38:28 AnMaster: the video of the brawl is from the Guardian 12:38:33 and the pamphlet seems real 12:38:38 hm ok... 12:38:38 and his story is consistent 12:38:43 and he's commenting a lot about it in reply 12:38:49 prolly true. ask lifthrasiir. 12:40:51 is it only US that has filibustering? 12:40:53 AnMaster: anyway there are worse things than filibusters; e.g. http://www.wellstone.org/about-us/pass-wellstone-bill — which was part of… the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. The bailout. "Pass this fluffy bill! It's awesome! Please don't look at what's stapled to it." 12:41:11 AnMaster: the article has sections for ancient rome, UK, US, Canada and France 12:41:12 on wp 12:41:28 ah 12:42:35 also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae 12:42:41 ehird, I can't figure out what the bill is really about from that link... "treat mental illness the same as physical illness" is pretty vague... In what respect would they be the same? 12:42:43 it's hopeless 12:42:53 AnMaster: dunno. 12:43:03 doesn't matter 12:43:15 you can't vote against such a fluffy, feel-good bill 12:43:21 or everyone hates you for being evil 12:43:23 so you have to vote for the bailout. 12:43:26 ehird, what was bundled with it, did you say? 12:43:35 AnMaster: it was bundled in the bailout. 12:43:37 of the banks 12:43:41 ah 12:43:59 ehird, that seems very odd. Since they are unrelated 12:44:07 is it really legal to do that? 12:44:07 AnMaster: it's very simple 12:44:17 if you vote against this act, you hate mentally ill people and are evil and kill puppies, obviously 12:44:21 but 12:44:22 to vote for it 12:44:25 you have to vote for the bailout 12:44:35 …thus ensuring that the bailout passes. 12:44:47 AnMaster: yes, it's legal, [[12:42 ehird: also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae]] is also legal and it's how all the legislation is done 12:44:49 ehird, yes, I mean... is it *legal* to bundle two unrelated issues into one voting session (or whatever it is called) 12:44:54 absolutely 12:44:55 not in Canada 12:44:58 their constitution forbids it 12:45:00 and I dunno non-US places 12:45:07 but in the US, everything goes through that 12:45:11 ehird, Go Canada! 12:45:18 (in this case at least) 12:45:38 ehird, pretty sure I haven't heard about this happening in Sweden. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though... 12:46:12 dammit zzo38 soiled the beautiful incomprehension of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic 12:49:01 very zzoish comment 12:49:12 everything zzo says is zzo 12:49:41 true 12:53:42 AnMaster: You can use fstsw+sahf to dump the x87 FPU status flags to the (low-order bytes of) EFLAGS registers, and then use the normal conditional jumps and such for logic, instead of manually examining different bits. 12:54:00 I guess for actual eflags-saving/restoring pushf/popf are more used. 12:54:52 ah 12:55:37 As for other uses, the interwebs seem to suggest they're mostly a 8080 pseudo-compatibility relic. 12:55:46 huh? 12:55:55 8080 compatibility, 64-bit edition :D 12:56:03 fizzie, they were *added* on x86_64... 12:56:56 Lahf/sahf most definitely weren't. Well, according to the pages I've seen on the topic, anyway. Hell, they're in the "Original 8086/8088 instructions" list of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings 12:57:30 hm maybe... 12:57:32 "The SAHF instruction can only be executed in 64-bit mode if supported by the processor 12:57:32 implementation. Check the status of ECX bit 0 returned by CPUID function 8000_0001h to verify that 12:57:32 the processor supports SAHF in 64-bit mode. 12:57:32 " 12:57:45 uh, so? 12:57:50 maybe available only in 32 bit mode before? 12:57:55 I think what was added was LAHF/SAHF support in 64-bit mode, yes. Maybe. 12:58:03 obviously 12:59:35 I was wonderign why loading web pages was so slow suddenly and then realised I had just started downloading archlinux iso by bittorrent... 12:59:37 heh 13:05:31 Meanwhile, 13:05:35 http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/8zv9i/god_is_imaginary_50_simple_proofs/c0ayww3 13:05:36 "Athiests and followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die." 13:05:41 "followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die." 13:05:51 I guess his was gifted to him by a zombie :-P 13:08:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:08:36 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:12:57 14 Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth." 13:12:58 15 "Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement." 13:13:10 Thanks, God! 13:13:20 You're a really swell guy, yaknow. 13:35:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:35:36 hi oklopol! 13:35:56 i gave it crowd another try, and that supernerd is actually pretty funny. 13:36:09 so's your mom 13:36:11 osnap 13:36:12 osnup 13:36:17 osnep 13:36:21 osnip? 13:36:23 olsne 13:36:25 olsner 13:36:31 olsner → oklopol 13:36:33 "you just won employee of the month" "i don't belive it!" "please believe it" 13:36:35 oh snap → osnap → oklopol 13:36:43 science↗ 13:36:49 for advancement of the human race↗ 13:37:02 i'm assuming you can supply the context that makes that funny yourself 13:37:05 and for upper-right-pointing arrows↗ 13:37:15 wait, are you people talking 13:37:17 hi ehird 13:37:20 hi oklopol 13:37:21 how's it hanging? 13:37:24 ↗ <--- why is this half as tall as lower case e one of the times but next time equally tall? 13:37:35 i'm not committing suicide oklopol 13:37:38 i don't care if you want me to hang myself 13:37:38 or different char ehird ? 13:37:49 AnMaster: um it's just an arrow pointing up ^ and right > 13:37:51 diagonal 13:37:57 same char 13:38:05 ehird: it seems you have some serious context supplying skill. 13:38:13 ehird, ok. just rendering issue then... 13:38:16 AnMaster: A↗ the arrow should be a little taller 13:38:22 oklopol: do i do i do i do 13:38:34 ehird, the arrow there is about as high as "e" and about the same placement 13:38:41 s/high/tall/ 13:38:46 though it might be both 13:38:47 AnMaster: use a proportional font :P 13:39:30 nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :( 13:39:33 ehird, I think the unbenefits outweigh(sp?) the benefits 13:39:42 (and yeah I forgot the right word for "unbenefit") 13:39:50 ehird: anyway, while you're correct in that it has a very bad return, it's still one of the most probable ways to get a million without working 13:39:55 unbenefits lol 13:40:01 oklopol: wwwwwwhat? 13:40:02 nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :( <-- only if it isn't broken this time.... 13:40:10 AnMaster: NO i like broken 13:40:20 ehird: err lottery 13:40:27 oklopol: you kinda didn't say lottery 13:40:29 oklopol: or anything 13:40:29 ehird, anyway what is the right word. 13:40:33 AnMaster: unbenefits 13:40:41 ehird, no way 13:40:45 nah i'm kidding :) 13:40:46 that was in my buffer of paused conversations 13:40:47 it's disbenefits 13:40:52 oklopol: heh 13:40:56 and because of the context thing 13:40:56 disadvantage vs. advantage but for benefit? 13:41:00 i thought i'd just say it. 13:41:00 ehird, that sounds like a joke too 13:41:06 AnMaster: it's not... 13:41:18 oklopol: i think there are more probable ways 13:41:33 like, trying every single "free" ipod thing and selling them on ebay 13:41:42 maybe. 13:41:42 that's not work? 13:41:53 oklopol: it's a very trivial kind of work 13:41:56 most of it can be scripted 13:41:58 lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me" 13:42:02 the whole ebay part can be scripted 13:42:10 it's just clicking a few things for the referring shit 13:42:17 ehird, you are right, but it is so disusual that the first three hits on google are dictionaries and similar. 13:42:27 AnMaster: wait am I right? I was bullshitting 13:42:34 ehird, the word exists... 13:42:42 oklopol: anyway it'll probably be way better than the lottery and you can just do it while you're bored 13:42:44 nothing has 0 work 13:43:05 oklopol: mebbe try one of those "click ads for money" thing actually, that's easier and appears to give money, if only minor amounts 13:43:15 i'm never bored 13:43:15 i mean if you can hit the counter all day you can click all day :D 13:43:26 minor amounts? 13:43:39 i'm talking about getting a million. 13:43:40 yeah 13:43:44 oklopol: yes, and? 13:43:51 with the ads you're certain to get a million if you just keep clicking 13:43:56 ... 13:43:57 with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely 13:44:07 and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all 13:44:08 you have a distorted opinion of little work 13:44:14 ehird, seems to be used mostly in jargon...[1] [1] Quick glance at first page of results from googling the word. 13:44:21 for me, opening the browser is a bit too much work. 13:44:28 oklopol: eh 13:44:30 your loss :P 13:44:45 with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all <-- intentional joke on "lot"? 13:44:50 no. 13:44:54 oh 13:44:56 i wish those ad clickers didn't have "no bots" in their TOS 13:45:00 it'd be so much more profitable 13:45:19 well, even though i might be just as insane as you, only in the other direction, i'm pretty sure no one considers getting a million by clicking on ads "little work". 13:45:41 oklopol: well yeah it isn't, but the amount of numbers you'd have to pick on the lottery is far more work considering the odds 13:45:46 than mindlessly clicking a whole bunch 13:45:50 (less than the lottery) 13:46:09 i can just ask python for the numbers 13:46:13 you just 13:46:13 13:41 oklopol: lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me" 13:46:16 offload the work 13:46:19 which doesn't actually make it less work 13:46:22 you could get someone else to click for you too 13:46:25 ehird, what about writing an extremely popular book instead? 13:46:26 but that's not the point 13:46:33 AnMaster: probably more likely than the lottery 13:46:36 anyway, i'm fairly sure it's at least a year of work, pretty much non stop, to get a million from clicking ads 13:46:39 unless I ununderstood the topic. 13:46:41 also books don't pay thaaaaaaat well 13:46:44 afaik 13:46:53 ehird, coiunterexample: J. K. Rowling? 13:46:57 counter* 13:47:07 AnMaster: countercounterexample: 99% of all authors ever 13:47:15 ehird, true. 13:47:21 oklopol: same for lottery tickets, except replace clicking with picking numbers or pressing enter to get more numbers 13:47:30 and also prolly far more of that, due to the odds 13:47:36 ehird: you have to pick the numbers once 13:47:44 oklopol: what, and reuse them all the time? 13:47:48 making the account takes at most 5 minutes 13:47:49 you still have to click on the site 13:47:50 buy ticket 13:47:51 buy ticket 13:47:52 buy ticket 13:47:56 so 13:47:59 you have to do that *once* 13:48:02 at least the same work, almost certainly more due to odds 13:48:03 buy ticket? 13:48:03 and it's forever 13:48:05 less money 13:48:06 etc 13:48:14 wouldn't that be more expensive than winning? 13:48:28 AnMaster: basically ehird is saying it. 13:48:28 AnMaster: eh? 13:48:31 err 13:48:31 well, depends on what the tickets are for 13:48:36 lottery tickets 13:48:40 ehird, oh right 13:48:48 it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery 13:48:48 ehird, thought you meant add-clicking 13:48:57 a lottery ticket in this country nets you £-1 13:49:10 oklopol, wow... they must have some seriously complicated question on the sign up form! 13:49:11 (there are other cases but they're so statistically improbable to be irrelevant) 13:49:24 oklopol: lol freudian slip 13:49:34 was there? 13:49:36 AnMaster: "Is the Riemann hypothesis true? Provide a proof written in Coq." 13:49:44 oklopol: 13:48 oklopol: it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery 13:49:45 cock 13:49:58 Slereah: you're the 5 billionth person to make that joke. 13:50:02 ehird: i was continuing the sentence 13:50:04 ehird, yeah or: "location of key you lost 15 years ago" 13:50:11 but i now realize the sentence made sense as it was :D 13:50:11 and they check it! 13:50:17 especially as i always put the period first. 13:50:24 I just wanted to belong :( 13:50:44 augh that was a horrible joke Slereah 13:50:59 ehird: but seriously, how much do ads pay, i mean is it even physically possible to get a million? 13:51:14 oklopol: well they're pyramid schemes ofc but 13:51:28 i have no idea how the ad-clicking stuff works 13:51:39 oklopol: from bux.to: "10 ad clicks a day = $0.10; 20 referrals click 10 ads a day = $2.00; blah blah earnings; monthly earnings = $63" 13:51:43 ofc the hard part is 20 referral 13:51:43 s 13:51:46 spam irc channels or sth :P 13:52:03 so with that baseline, it'd take 1,322.75 years 13:52:12 how much can you get a day, from one source? 13:52:22 oklopol, short on money? 13:52:23 infinite i'm pretty sure 13:52:28 well naturally it has to be in the next 10 years or so 13:52:30 AnMaster: we're just doing hypotheticals 13:52:31 anyway 13:52:34 ah ok 13:52:36 let's say we click 1000 ads a day instead 13:52:42 and 50 referrals click 20 13:52:46 you know, being optimistic 13:52:46 well 13:52:51 50 clicking 20 isn't too optimistic 13:52:57 but it's moreso than the 1000 a day 13:52:58 which is trivial 13:53:13 so that's $100 a day just by our 1000 clicks 13:53:16 1000 a day is already more work than making the lottery account 13:53:26 then 13:53:28 just to make sure you still know you're making no sense 13:53:29 $100 by our 50 clicking 20 13:53:39 = $6,000/mo 13:53:56 6000 a month will never get you to a million 13:54:05 oklopol: yes it will, in 13 years 13:54:08 well 13.9 13:54:09 so 14 13:54:25 but hey how much is your lottery getting you 13:54:28 zero? :P 13:54:35 i had a limit of 10 years 13:54:47 anyway, a thousand clicks a day for 13 years? 13:54:51 oklopol, what about probability of winning instead of just making that account 13:54:53 how is that not much work :D 13:55:03 oklopol: well ok if we want to do it in 10 years 13:55:07 we need $8,333/year 13:55:13 AnMaster: we're talking about easy ways to get a million, not sure ways to get it 13:55:18 it'll be much less... worky to refer rather than click 13:55:22 since your referral clicks without you 13:55:28 and you can like spam google wit hblogs 13:55:30 i'm just saying if you don't want to work your ass off, lottery is one of the most probably ways to get rich 13:55:33 (I'm not taking ethics into account here) 13:55:34 so 13:55:37 oklopol, hm ok. Is there anything more than that account? Like clicking "buy a ticket"? 13:55:38 $8333/mo 13:55:39 not year 13:55:42 so 13:55:51 $277/day 13:55:52 AnMaster: make the account, put money on it 13:57:12 i just really don't see how spamming stuff on blogs every day and clicking on ads every day is more work than setting up an account once, and putting money on it a few times a year 13:57:15 oklopol: we click 280 times a day, and have 250 referrers click 10 times each 13:57:19 = $278/mo 13:57:27 i guess you have to check whether you won every week 13:57:28 = 1mil in 10 years 13:57:34 but the rules let us only do that once as well 13:57:35 oklopol: i'm not going for easy in this case 13:57:37 you said is it even possible 13:57:38 because it's not about the probability 13:57:47 and i'm saying yes 13:57:57 oklopol: Availability Limited! Packages with 15, 35, 100 and 500 referrals are available now. 13:58:05 oklopol, spamming on blogs is evil. 13:58:11 not going for easy? then why not get a job 13:58:11 hm wait 13:58:15 500 referrals clicking 10 = $50 13:58:20 my maths is broken methinks 13:58:22 anyone can get a million by working 13:58:25 AnMaster: 13:55 ehird: (I'm not taking ethics into account here) 13:58:36 oklopol: not in 10 years if you don't have any skillz 13:58:37 ehird, ah... 13:58:53 ofc the main issue with bux.to and the like is, well 13:58:54 http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg 13:58:57 they generally, you know 13:58:59 don't pay you. 13:59:00 ehird: true 13:59:08 ehird, hm... 13:59:15 but it's a total pyramid scheme 13:59:21 nobody ethical would participate in a pyramid scheme anyway 13:59:21 ehird, sue them! 13:59:29 i think bux.to is perfectly legal. 13:59:34 it doesn't HAVE to be a pyramid scheme 13:59:40 you just won't earn more than peanuts if you don't treat it as one 13:59:54 maybe not in pyramid schemes where most people don't know they are pyramid schemes 14:00:00 but as a form of gamble, why not 14:00:09 seems like a fun game 14:00:16 bux.to would never admit they're a pyramid scheme 14:00:50 but 14:00:55 they will never be able to pay insane amounts 14:01:04 advertisers aren't really interested in giving ads to people who will close it immediately 14:01:07 and are just doing it to get cash 14:01:11 because they won't look at the product 14:01:14 obviously 14:01:49 otoh it would be nice to have a few more $k lying around and then give up on it 14:02:02 ehird, they won't pay you.. 14:02:07 as you said yourself 14:02:10 they've paid plenty of people. 14:02:16 k's are boring, i want M's 14:02:16 http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg 14:02:19 just not if you earn too much, and sporadically 14:02:27 AnMaster: no i'm not short on cash 14:02:28 because of cashflow issues 14:02:42 i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it 14:02:45 you can just build up a few $k — but not too much — wait until they have some cash 14:02:47 and then jump ship 14:02:51 of course, if i was someone who liked stuff, i probably wouldn't have money 14:08:57 wow ram is really cheap 14:13:19 so i was going to google number conversion, and wrote gonger in the url 14:14:06 lol 14:14:11 i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it <-- whatever that thing is? 14:14:21 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion 14:14:24 * AnMaster considers oklopol wanting the Golden gate bridge 14:14:31 AnMaster: you asked if i was short on money 14:14:39 oklopol, that was ages ago yes 14:14:39 * ehird considers oklopol buying a computer. for me. 14:14:41 but it got pushed in the stack 14:14:51 ehird, you forgot an important word 14:14:52 oklopol: YOU WANT TO BUY A COMPUTER FOR ME 14:14:52 kthx 14:14:54 "wanting to buy" 14:14:55 so i answered once ehird stopped being insane 14:15:00 ah there you added it 14:15:03 i stopped being insane? 14:15:11 it feels peculiarly similar 14:15:16 ehird: well yes, you made it clear you weren't talking about easy ways 14:15:53 oklopol: gimme £1 every week and I swear that you will have a chance of me giving you £1,000,000 that is 10% more likely than the lottery 14:15:56 you don't even have to pick numbers 14:16:05 ↑ easier, more likely 14:16:11 why is that? 14:16:18 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion <-- intentional? 14:16:25 what would you do with it then? 14:16:25 how should i know AnMaster 14:16:32 oklopol: whaddya mena 14:16:33 mean 14:16:35 ehird, seems plausible though 14:16:42 "you won't win anyway, so i'll just keep it"? 14:17:05 i mean how're you going to get a million? 14:17:41 oklopol: two ways 14:17:48 (a) debt, (b) money from your bets 14:17:57 it's rational to keep betting after you win because you might get another million 14:18:05 so if you hit it first time, it's debt until i get a million, which i get from your bets 14:18:14 and also any other sources of money i have 14:18:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:18:43 if i won a million, i would not bet again 14:18:45 you are an idiot 14:18:47 the chances of both you winning and me being stuck in permanent debt with no way to repay it are so astronomically unlikely even compared to you just winning that you should be more worried about me dying in a freak asteroid-and-chicken-wing accident 14:18:51 oklopol: why not? 14:18:58 because i have enough 14:18:59 if you want a million, and think this is a good way to get it 14:19:02 why not get two million? 14:19:05 oklopol: then i'll just enroll other people 14:19:10 i have better odds, so there 14:19:11 why would i want two million? 14:19:13 i expect your bets 14:19:23 ... 14:19:42 this is really annoying 14:20:03 oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right? 14:20:22 i just give you better chances and, depending on if you set up a batch, less work (no numbers) 14:20:28 so c'mon, where's my quid 14:20:40 ehird: except you can't get enough players 14:20:55 that's what they said to Baron von Lottery III 14:21:05 oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right? <-- not exactly. The difference is that they can make sure they have the money... by not paying most of the people back 14:21:08 maybe he wasn't an annoying brat? 14:21:12 oklopol: anyway, i don't need enough players necessarily 14:21:15 oh wait 14:21:17 misread that 14:21:28 because you will lose many, many times before you win; if you don't it's just temporary debt while i get more players 14:21:49 i'm pretty much certain to be able any winnings within like ten years 14:23:22 ehird: if you seriously think you can make a better system than the lottery, then yeah, i'll start playing as soon as i see your ad on the net 14:23:43 oklopol: my system gives you better odds 14:23:45 it's that simple 14:23:50 ehird: but it doesn't exist 14:23:54 yes it does 14:24:03 ... 14:24:03 it starts running as soon as i get my first pound 14:32:22 oklopol: well? 14:34:22 ehird: do you know how to convert between rationals and doubles in j? 14:34:36 i think so, second 14:34:41 lemme test 14:35:19 i can't find anything for it in the docs 14:35:22 oklopol: err it's isomorphic 14:35:25 you don't have to convert 14:35:25 no? 14:35:33 well 14:35:37 f.e. 14:35:40 1r2+o.1 14:35:40 3.64159 14:35:47 technically not, except for speedual purposes. 14:35:49 but 14:35:53 oklopol: (1r2+o.1)-o.1 14:35:54 :D 14:35:56 i need to print a rational in form i can see 14:36:02 a form 14:36:09 rationals are very seeable : 14:36:09 :| 14:36:10 but 14:36:12 lemm etake a look 14:36:21 well if they are too long they aren't 14:36:33 oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works 14:36:34 but is ugly 14:36:42 this one is like multiple hundred pages prolly 14:36:54 i'm interested, what are you writing? 14:38:08 okay pi works, because it's not an exact number, but yes, ugly 14:38:14 oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works 14:38:22 +0.0 doesn't, dunno why 14:38:28 oklopol: another silly option: 14:38:31 and i'm just calculating some lottery odds 14:38:42 (%x)*x 14:38:54 er wait 14:38:55 that's 1 14:39:05 also +0.1-0.1 doesn't work for me 14:39:16 1r2+0.1-0.1 14:39:16 0.5 14:39:23 22r7+0.1-0.1 14:39:23 3.14286 14:39:26 maybe whether decimals are exact is implementation defined? 14:39:30 prolly 14:39:40 oklopol: i suggest you use one of the base things 14:39:47 you're meant to let j pick a representation in general i think 14:40:04 oklopol: that is 14:40:11 the rational is so big i can't print all of it 14:40:18 oklopol: #:(numerator x) and #:(denomerator x) 14:40:24 so 14:40:40 then you get the binary digits 14:40:42 so you can just do 14:40:49 #.nd 14:40:50 #.dd 14:40:51 and voila 14:40:59 what's numerator, there? 14:41:01 that doesn't really help you get x.y though 14:41:03 just (x/y) 14:41:09 but you can limit how many digits you see 14:41:10 but on second thoughts 14:41:12 totally useless 14:41:20 not defined 14:41:30 i know 14:41:34 i didn't wnt to look it up 14:41:35 *want 14:41:47 +.y yields a two-element list of the real and imaginary parts of its argument. For example, +.3j5 is 3 5, and +.3 is 3 0 . 14:42:10 err 14:42:13 that's imaginaries 14:42:16 that's not helpful 14:42:16 im so fucking stupid 14:42:24 yeah :P 14:42:50 but yes, it proves the creators of j probably know how to separate a tuple into it's components 14:42:50 ! 14:42:51 oklopol: use a foreign function or something from the libraries 14:42:54 to convert to string or whatever 14:43:03 i'll just add and sub pi :P 14:43:08 well yeah that works 14:44:00 only 1/10000 for 4 years of lottery, that actually puts it ahead of some of the more ridiculous ideas of mine, like walking to the bank and seeing if anyone notices you taking all their money. 14:44:30 r2d =: monad define 14:44:30 y + (o.1) - (o.1) 14:44:31 ) 14:44:33 r2d 1r2 14:44:35 0.5 14:44:37 problem solved 14:44:40 oklopol: lol that's some idea 14:44:42 yarr 14:44:48 oklopol: also did you take into account how many people play lottery 14:44:50 well 14:44:51 of course you did 14:44:54 but did you get the numbers right 14:45:06 ehird: might be more probable than lottery, but you can only do it once :P 14:45:13 what about the number of people? 14:45:15 just move all the time! 14:45:24 oklopol: the more people that play the lottery, the less likely you are to win 14:46:05 well yes, but the big wins are only shared like 20% of the time 14:46:15 20% being based on nothing. 14:46:17 even so /shrug 14:46:31 you gotta take the player counts into account or it's worthless 14:46:48 but yeah, that does make it slightly harder, except the ones where they're shared are usually ones in which the jackpot is high anyway 14:46:57 and splitting it doesn't drop under a millionn 14:47:00 *million 14:47:12 in finland, that is, your jackpots are bigger afaik 14:47:18 and probably more players 14:47:55 ehird: i think statistically most lottery winners get a million. 14:48:00 *speaking 14:48:11 at least that is 14:48:27 oklopol: email tech@jsoftware.com or jal@jsoftware.com ("application library" issues) and tell them to make a rational to float function or whatever 14:48:37 adding and subtracting pi is for stupids 14:49:07 i know there's something for it, the j docs are just kinda... bad 14:49:25 wow there's multiple active mailings lists for J 14:49:36 cool 14:49:44 i'm afraid of mailing lists 14:49:52 http://jsoftware.com/pipermail/programming/2009-July/thread.html 14:49:55 tons of posts just this month 14:50:01 and that's just one of them 14:50:07 cool. 14:50:09 erm 14:50:11 > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31) 14:50:11 > in the fewest characters. 14:50:18 2^31? :D 14:51:25 is it exact? 14:51:33 i can't convert doubles to rationals either :) 14:51:33 2^31 14:51:33 2.14748e9 14:51:39 hmm 14:51:43 oklopol: that's easy 14:51:48 oh. 14:51:49 cool 14:51:52 er wait 14:51:53 3.44r1 14:51:54 3.44 14:52:00 oklopol: also I'm not sure it's exact 14:52:04 it does stop at 48 after all 14:52:04 so nm 14:52:13 i thought it was hard because you can't just inexact exact by adding something to i 14:52:15 t 14:52:26 oklopol: well any float can be a rational 14:52:28 just not any real 14:52:32 but we don't have reals so it doesn't matter 14:52:54 what? i'm just talking about the conversions j has 14:53:00 i don't know them 14:53:11 oklopol: well, o. 1 → 314159r100000 14:53:22 it's just the wossname 14:53:28 significand mantissa thingy 14:53:39 what? 14:53:50 oklopol: i'm converting a float to a rational 14:53:52 how does that help in making a double a rational? 14:53:58 hmm 14:53:59 well 14:54:02 3.14159 = 314159r100000 14:54:06 i guess you could multiply xD 14:54:08 this is actually what we use for floating point thingy 14:54:16 oklopol: well mine uses base 10 which kinda sucks 14:54:19 lemme do it as base 2 14:54:24 well 14:54:28 yeah 14:54:29 sec 14:54:46 #: o. 1 14:54:46 1 1.14159 14:54:48 Thanks, #:. 14:54:54 wait i'm an idiot, that doesn't help 14:55:09 oklopol: point is, the algorithm, stated fuzzily 14:55:15 working in decimal, take the dot place 14:55:20 and like just multiply 2 14:55:22 then remove the dot 14:55:26 and divide 'em into a rational 14:55:32 the hard part is like, formulating this mathemagically 14:55:35 you could use a tostring function :D 14:56:18 ehird, you mean INT_MAX+1? 14:56:25 umm no? 14:56:28 take the dot place, and multiply by two? 14:56:31 > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31) 14:56:31 > in the fewest characters. 14:56:34 multiply the number by two? 14:56:35 about that 14:56:38 oklopol: nonono, like 14:56:51 if we're working in decimal 14:56:53 3.14159 14:56:53 10000 14:57:01 that 10000 aligns with the 14159 14:57:03 and is the same length 14:57:08 then we remove the decimal place 14:57:09 and divide em 14:57:16 314159r10000 14:57:23 so basically, do that but with base-2 instead of base-10 14:57:28 since the doubles are base-2 based 14:57:31 instead of base-10 based 14:57:50 (things like 1%3) 14:57:54 oklopol: geddit? 14:58:26 oh, right, modulo will get me the small digits just as well as binary and 14:58:29 ehird: no 14:59:14 sigh 14:59:18 oklopol: i'll write a paste explaining it 14:59:55 okay 15:00:03 i just don't get why the rationals, it's an integer 15:00:31 oklopol, btw is your nick related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklo in any way? 15:00:43 (or just a coincidence) 15:02:07 ah it's | 15:02:10 ofc 15:02:17 AnMaster: coincidence. 15:03:04 okay it's exact 15:03:20 so yeah 2^31 is okay 15:03:40 i thought it might be like the point, that that's not exact, and you need to do something weird. 15:03:59 would've been kinda weird 15:04:40 oklopol: the double to rational conversion algorithm: http://pastie.org/556420.txt?key=fsnc1cgevfykunm0dlgwq 15:04:55 it's obvious 15:04:57 i assume you already know it 15:05:03 but maybe i expressed it wrong 15:05:17 There are five digits after the decimal point, so we take 10^5 = 100000 <<< how do you get the number of digits after decimal point? 15:05:43 oklopol: (a) that's your problem, (b) the maximum is 5 so it's always five 15:05:57 050000r100000 15:05:57 1r2 15:06:03 = 0.5 = 0.50000 15:06:07 maximum is 5? 15:06:10 oklopol: sure 15:06:20 1.23456789 15:06:20 1.23457 15:06:26 might differ for 64 bit or whatever 15:06:38 but you can get bit size from ! (foreign) 15:06:39 prolly 15:06:41 3.14159265358979 is how much vb could do 15:06:50 at this point, oklopol starts hating J again :D 15:06:57 oklopol: just never use doubles 15:07:14 write a function for entering things in decimally form as rationals 15:07:14 like 15:07:22 3 dec 14159 15:07:29 ehird: anyway this was about knowing whether 2^31 is exact. 15:07:32 that's easy to figure out the bits 15:07:34 oklopol: ah 15:07:44 2^31 15:07:44 2.14748e9 15:07:49 2.14748e9 != 2^31 15:08:07 actually i just checked and it is exact 15:08:24 oklopol: dude, 2.14748e9 = 2147480000 15:08:31 ... 15:08:32 2^31 = 2147483648 15:08:52 so what you meant by "maximum is 5" was that j only prints first 5 15:08:55 right, that's true. 15:08:59 oh 15:09:06 well it should print all of them dammit 15:09:11 oklopol: anyway doubles are totally useless when you have rationals. 15:09:25 they make more sense when you look at them 15:09:29 and they are faster 15:09:31 that's it 15:09:59 it's trivial to write (3 d 14159265) = pi approx as rational (for some values of trivial) 15:10:14 and it's trivial to write dp (3 d 14159265) = 3,14159265 15:10:15 of course rationals are as fast, asymptotically, if you round them a bit. 15:10:17 every now and then 15:10:25 also rationals are more elegant and less machine 15:10:30 and they can represent 1r3 15:10:36 whereas, y'know, doubles can't 15:10:40 ... 15:10:42 in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks. 15:11:06 oklopol: ok they can represent 1r3 but the 1 they give is not really 1 15:11:07 or something 15:11:14 it's too machine :< 15:11:27 doubles can represent 1 exactly, and they can't represent 1r3 15:11:50 yeah but 15:11:50 (1%3)*3 15:11:51 1 15:11:51 my ... was because i have no idea what your point is, yes, rationals > doubles in range 15:11:54 but it's a ... lame kind of 1%3 15:12:00 it's just rounding shit that makes it 1 15:12:59 err, true 15:13:35 one issue with j rationals is that you can't do (expr r expr) 15:13:37 because it's syntax 15:13:38 :( 15:13:54 but % generally works on rationals so. 15:14:53 oklopol: lol look at the help page for d. 15:14:55 "d." 15:15:52 in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks. <-- what about single precision? 15:16:00 * ehird slaps AnMaster 15:16:01 I mean, do you hate it as much? 15:16:39 ehird, ? 15:16:40 singles are just doubles a few generations ago 15:16:46 oklopol, heh 15:16:48 lol 15:17:02 okay few generations was maybe a bit of an overestimate. 15:17:05 well I shall remind ehird about this next time he is using any program using 3D graphics. 15:17:20 fuck you AnMaster rationals are awesome 15:17:22 mostly rendering 3D is a case of floating point calculations 15:17:25 those use singles? aren't doubles faster generally 15:17:29 oh 15:17:30 right 15:17:36 oklopol, opengl can use both in theory iirc 15:18:05 but singles are more common usually. You don't need the extra precision most of the time when rendering the environment or whatever in a game 15:18:33 (there are exceptions however) 15:18:40 well right, for something where the calculations go on forever, you want the subset of reals you're using have bounded representations 15:18:58 or the algorithms get asymptotically slower 15:18:59 (like z-buffer for long distances, I have seen single precision fuck up badly there.) 15:19:47 and of course, if we're talking actual computers, you need doubles to actually render anything, because rationals are many times slower anyway 15:19:53 that is, when there is a semi-transparent object in front of another object, close to each other, but quite far from the camera 15:20:05 z buffer? do you know what a z buffer is? 15:20:42 oklopol, yes, used to be able to decide wich order to render objects should be rendered when they overlap 15:20:47 from the camera point of view 15:20:58 unless I mixed up the words 15:21:22 yes, afaik it's exactly that 15:21:37 it's always cool to hear someone use a term i've only learned from dusty books 15:21:50 oklopol, point was, the distance for the pixel was stored as a single, and the object was far away and had another object very close behind it 15:22:10 yeah i know what the issue is 15:22:15 thus due to precision issues they ended up flickering kindof 15:22:50 oklopol, such problems are common in flightsims. Just look at the cockpit window of an aircraft at the other end of the airport. :) 15:23:11 and the yoke inside the window 15:24:46 ehird: wait d. help page? 15:24:52 yah 15:24:53 god i stack today. 15:24:54 in the j vocab 15:25:01 you stack today 15:25:34 okay looking 15:26:26 what about it? 15:27:09 it's so concise and useless 15:27:10 :D 15:27:13 and has a bunch of examples 15:27:43 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:28:17 why is it useless? 15:28:25 dunno 15:28:31 it doesn't look like a derivative tho 15:29:07 well, okay, i guess some of the really general high order functions are kinda stupid, because j doesn't actually do any algebra, just special cases some stuff you might want to use it on 15:29:14 it also has inverse and shti 15:29:16 *shit 15:29:45 but inverse is actually pretty cool, there's that one adverb that lifts a value with the function, performs another function on it, then unlifts it using the first one's inverse 15:29:51 so you can supply an inverse for you functions 15:30:01 and you can get pretty darn cool definitions for some sutff 15:30:03 *stuff 15:30:16 like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog 15:30:22 like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog 15:30:23 err 15:30:26 *multiplication 15:30:39 yeah but it can't really inversify 15:30:40 just has a table 15:30:41 right 15:30:42 ? 15:31:05 it inverses some basic functions, and some types of combinations of them are inversible 15:31:12 but no, not in general. 15:31:23 you'll have to supply hard obverses (as j calls them) yourself 15:31:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:31:57 functions can have all kinds of additional info hanging on them, the inverse is one of them 15:32:28 yeah i don't like that shit 15:32:30 it's so hacky 15:32:56 you'd love it if you saw what obverses can do ;) 15:33:13 can they make me toast 15:33:18 i like toast 15:33:25 but yes, it is pretty hacky, and i'm not sure i like the thing myself. 15:34:34 toast is good. 15:34:49 [[Factual errors: When Kate is describing the specs of her machine she says, “It's a P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium”. Dade then says, “Yeah. It's not just the chip, it has a PCI bus”. Kate says, “Indeed. RISC architecture is gonna change everything”. The P6 chip is a CISC design, not a RISC. Also, the Pentium has a PCI bus so there wouldn't be any reason to mention it.]] 15:34:53 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/goofs 15:34:55 longest page evar 15:35:02 [[Factual errors: In the scene when Acid is showing-off her laptop, they speak of the laptop having a processor called a P6 and a PCI bus. Further examination of this scene and another scene with them looking over the damaged code, the laptop that Acid-burn has is clearly a Macintosh Powerbook 280C (sub-notebook) made by Apple Computer Inc. This model does not have a PCI-bus, or a P6. It does have a Motorola 68030 33mhz CPU. ]] 15:35:06 [[Factual errors: Kate's "insanely great" laptop is described as having a "28.8 bps" modem: a thousand times slower than a standard 28.8 kilobits per second one. ]] 15:35:11 28.8 bps? 15:35:12 UPHILL 15:35:13 BOTH WAYS 15:35:31 [[Revealing mistakes: When swimming in the rooftop pool at the end, Kate and Dade's ears are underwater as they talk to each other. They wouldn't be able to hear one another if their ears were submerged.]] 15:35:33 you know the sad thing 15:35:36 someone watched it so many times 15:35:37 just to compile this 15:36:15 sounds awesome 15:37:59 Just hack the Gibson. 15:38:25 (A Gibson is a mainframe of some sort.) 15:39:16 i bet the gibson had dual P6 processors 15:39:21 and two pci buses 15:39:24 also, OISC 15:39:29 it's gonna change everything again 15:39:30 what's all this hacker talk right here 15:39:46 it'll have 32 megabytes of memory 15:40:34 Urban dictionary meaning number 5: 15:40:35 5. Hack the Gibson 15:40:35 15:40:35 To Fuck a Dog in the anus 15:40:35 Eg. Me fucking your doberman would be to Hack the Gibson. 15:40:44 ... 15:40:45 what 15:40:46 XD 15:40:51 That's a bit out-of-place compared to the other meanings. 15:40:54 :D 15:40:56 i'm gonna hack the dual-processor gibson 15:40:58 it has TWO ANUSES 15:43:44 i want a planet the size of the sun 15:43:48 can you imagine how awesome that would be 15:44:24 how would that be awesome exactly? 15:44:33 oklopol: okay it's like 15:44:35 you could never 15:44:36 ever 15:44:38 go all the way around 15:44:43 there would continually be a mystery 15:44:47 of planetelial proportions 15:44:47 also 15:44:50 the internet would be so lagged 15:44:54 it'd be freaky 15:44:54 also 15:44:57 there'd be SO MUCH STUFF 15:44:58 can you iamgine 15:45:00 it'd be like 15:45:02 if you run out of stuff 15:45:03 NO PROBLEM 15:45:05 go a bit further 15:45:07 MORE STUFF 15:45:10 dudei t'd be fucking rad. 15:45:14 dude it'd be fucking rad. 15:45:15 but there's that much stuff on earth as well 15:45:20 not that much 15:45:25 with earth you eventually go alllllllll the way around 15:45:28 also not as much internet lag 15:45:30 with the sun you die before that 15:45:32 and toooooons of internet lag 15:45:34 freeeeeeeeeaky 15:45:37 it'd be fucking awesome. 15:46:02 err i doubt it's that big 15:46:04 oh 15:46:12 oklopol: no the sun is quite big :P 15:46:14 die before getting around it yourself? 15:46:18 yah 15:46:31 so you could never, ever run out of stuff 15:46:34 that may be, also you'd die from gravity anyway, unless there's some scheme around that 15:46:42 in use 15:46:46 hmm 15:46:51 just put an anti gravity machine in the core. 15:46:54 but internets flow around it in a few secs. 15:47:01 yeah 15:47:04 but a few secs is everything 15:47:05 eg an ps 15:47:06 fps 15:47:15 actually i really like super gravity 15:47:29 everything being crushed to an unimaginable degree and pummeled to the surface is just 15:47:30 kind of 15:47:31 awesome. 15:47:44 does seem kinda pure an beautiful. 15:47:58 what would a glio planet be 15:48:04 you know what i want a cube planet 15:48:12 it'd be a planet that is a cube 15:48:43 it's like 8 perfect mountains 15:48:51 oklopol: cubeular mountains? 15:48:57 yes 15:50:38 oklopol: awesome 15:50:45 oklopol: would this planet be as big as the biggest sun 15:51:30 well i might prefer one where you can slide down the mountain without a fear in the world. 15:51:40 also i had a dream i was riding this motorcycle 15:51:46 *where 15:51:51 it was pretty darn fast 15:51:54 and i loved it 15:52:08 if only i had the balls to actually ride one. 15:52:52 http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome 15:54:20 isn't that how they're always defined 15:54:29 don't care 15:54:30 it's beautiful 15:54:30 so 15:54:33 what's tetration 15:55:19 You know how multiplication is iterated addition, and exponentiation is iterated multiplication? 15:55:28 Tetration is iterated exponentiation. 15:55:31 sigh 15:55:35 way to read the 5 line backlog 15:55:41 actually 4 above "so" 15:56:01 I hate reading. 15:56:03 :P 15:59:19 tetration, heh 15:59:39 ehird: http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome is awesome 16:03:37 aaaaaaah 16:03:41 i just had an epiphany 16:03:43 of 16:03:44 of type systems 16:03:46 and and things 16:05:16 it's wow 16:05:17 unified 16:05:24 almost 16:05:33 yay types. 16:05:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:05:39 -!- evenant has joined. 16:05:39 no but 16:05:44 it's dependent types of the equality 16:05:44 man 16:06:44 it's like 16:06:52 you ask for trues 16:06:55 and the things 16:07:30 never share epiphanies before you've washed them 16:07:45 you're in spacet hough 16:08:33 -!- nescience has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:08:33 -!- sebbu has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:08:33 -!- fizzie has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:08:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:09:34 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 16:09:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:09:39 Cool, I'm an op on #estoeric 16:09:46 no you're not 16:09:52 oh nose! 16:10:05 at least he doesn't show up as an op to me 16:10:19 must be a stealth op 16:10:22 * GregorR-L slaps ehird and forces him to read :P 16:10:36 oh 16:10:38 :D 16:10:38 HELLO IM HUMAN I CAN CORECT TYPOS WITH MY EIS 16:10:40 ah 16:11:00 THE FINGERS NEED MORE TRAINING THOUGH 16:14:02 so now 16:14:03 if we have 16:14:07 type addition 16:14:11 is uh um 16:14:23 (p+q) x=p x || q x 16:14:28 so we need like || but True/False are like, types 16:14:32 so we have to um 16:14:37 have a pattern match on typesb ut we can't 16:14:38 so um 16:14:41 i'm not sure how we would do || 16:14:42 but 16:15:14 and 16:15:15 ehird: Either is generally considered something like that 16:15:19 oerjan: yes 16:15:23 it's just type, calculus, thingy 16:15:29 with dependent types and sets as functions and types and 16:15:40 (p*q) x = p x && q x you would think but i'm not sure that works as like a tuple 16:15:45 you'd have to find a value that is both a p and a q 16:15:47 except it has an extra bottom in haskell 16:15:50 hmmmmmmmmm 16:16:02 two extra bottoms 16:17:25 ehird: it's categorical product, where you can use morphisms to turn it into the right type 16:17:31 ///////////////what 16:17:40 so you have (p,q) -> p and (p,q) -> q functions 16:17:43 oerjan: so like what would it be with the and the is the 16:17:43 oh wait 16:17:50 it' wouldn't be true that we return would it or would be m 16:17:53 ybe the siatiscati 16:19:38 lessee it's this stuff with cartesian closed categories. Bool is a category with two objects, False and True and exactly one morphism between everything except from True to False 16:19:56 nononoono 16:19:57 true is a type 16:19:58 yo 16:20:00 yo 16:20:01 true is a type 16:20:04 (any distributive lattice or something like that) 16:20:08 also false is a a ///////////////////////////////////// wait am i thinking rightmaybe is it not 16:20:36 ehird: types correspond to objects when you do the cartesian closed category stuff, i believe 16:20:51 ///////////////////////////////////////////////// I'M BASICALLY RIPPing this ideas from another system als oiamcrazy today. 16:21:56 * oerjan probably doesn't remember this clearly enough to be of any help, if he ever did 16:22:09 mfkdfdfdfkdfkjdfjkdfjdfdfjdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjdfjdfjkdfjkdfdfkdfkdfkdfjkdfkjfddfkjdfjkdfkjfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfjkdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjfdjkdfjfdjkfdjkfdkjdfkjdfjkdfjkfdjkdfkjdfkj oerjan i could give you a link to where i done rip. 16:23:22 oerjan: sometimes i get the feeling you don't really understand math that well, just memorized tons of cool sentences 16:23:51 oklopol: he'll publish you 16:23:53 into the bin 16:24:00 oh snapping fuck\ 16:24:11 what bin 16:24:15 bin 16:24:20 what bin 16:24:35 MSACRO0 FICKING PHOTOGRAPHY 16:26:14 -!- fizzie has joined. 16:27:48 oklopol: the vaguely recalled basic thing here is that the Curry-Howard isomorphism, which is between programs/types and proofs/theorems, can be extended with one more step, morphisms/objects in a suitable category. for the basic intuitionistic propositional logic this corresponds to the cartesian closed categories. i think. 16:28:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E2%80%93Howard_correspondence#Curry.E2.80.93Howard.E2.80.93Lambek_correspondence 16:29:16 i can memorize that with no trouble 16:31:00 well this is vague enough i almost accept the accusation :D 16:32:36 GregorR-L: bitch what's that for 16:33:05 You've been mexcommunicated. 16:33:12 mexfuck that 16:33:16 to bitch or not to bitch, that's the question 16:34:24 GregorR-L: deundismexcommunicate me 16:34:47 Nevars? 16:34:52 MEXEVARS 16:34:53 = NOW 16:43:08 IWC >_< 16:43:14 AnMaster: ^ 16:43:30 oerjan, what about it? 16:43:41 it wasn't too bad 16:43:53 did i say it was? 16:44:01 oerjan, what does ">_<" mean 16:44:10 then 16:44:27 in this case, it means "that's MADNESS" 16:45:00 oerjan, oh? I don't see what is so mad about it 16:45:22 link it already 16:45:37 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 16:46:14 you won't understand it unless you followed the comic 16:46:22 it quite depends on previous strips 16:46:30 you need to know that that woman is supposed to be Jane Goodall at a younger age :D 16:46:40 oh and that 16:46:50 is jane goodall a famous person? 16:46:52 well that's the minimum 16:46:54 oerjan, what about knowing about that guy and Steve 16:47:06 oklopol, -_- 16:47:16 ? 16:47:31 is that an "obviously"? 16:47:33 yes. yes she is. and IWC portrays her almost as the exact opposite of the real one 16:47:44 and who is this jane character 16:47:54 in the real world 16:48:05 chimpanzee researcher 16:48:11 famous one too 16:48:15 famous for..? 16:48:27 http://www.janegoodall.org/ 16:48:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall 16:48:38 oerjan, damn you :OP 16:48:39 :P* 16:48:46 blah 16:48:50 i guess i can read a few lines 16:50:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:51:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:51:11 hi ais523 16:51:17 hi 16:51:28 hello ais523 16:51:46 did you notice graue's question whether you do backups of the wiki? 16:51:49 irritating. I burned a cd and checked the "verify after burning" option in k3 b 16:51:51 k3b* 16:52:21 it reported "failed"... I used dd to dump the cd to a file. checked it against the iso, exactly the same 16:52:28 also it works to boot with. 16:52:31 ais523: ^ 16:52:36 so I wonder what happened there... 16:54:05 :For esoteric programming, there doesn't have to be any reason why anyone should use anything. --[[User:Zzo38|Zzo38]] 16:54:11 looks like zzo38 has the idea down right too 16:54:20 oerjan: I personally don't do backups 16:54:24 although IIRC all the other admins do 16:54:39 if it turns out the wiki's low on backuppers, I may start 16:54:40 ais523, ehird complained about that comment. Something about "uncofusing" the talk page or something 16:54:43 *shrug* 16:54:49 unconfusing* 16:55:06 ais523: apparently graue's own backups started failing 16:55:20 oerjan, too old tape? 16:56:00 AnMaster: don't ask me, i wasn't even present at the discussion 16:56:14 the antonym is profusing 16:56:40 oklopol: gibbering fnord? 16:57:06 that was about unconfusing 16:58:06 reconfucius say! 17:00:39 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:01:41 * ais523 grabs Esolang backup just in case 17:02:19 also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works 17:02:23 it's good to have at least 2 working backups 17:03:28 looks like the relevant information's there 17:03:28 I recently saw an old digital camera with a *floppy* in it. How strange. 17:04:28 ehird: floppies are what we used back in the day instead of dvd's and frisbees 17:05:37 Observation: The diff between one day's SQL dump and the next is 66MB ... 17:05:41 agrgh my hands are dirty -> 17:05:42 One SQL dump is 66MB ... 17:05:48 GregorR-L, hah 17:05:50 I conclude that keeping them differentially does not appear to work. 17:06:17 GregorR-L, is the previous one 0? 17:06:24 (or close to) 17:06:41 ... no, it's a full dump. 17:06:46 Then the next day's full dump. 17:08:09 Whoah, wait ... 17:08:12 The current dump is 2.8MB??? 17:08:20 Oh, I must have got the screwed-up dump? 17:08:43 Length: 662295 (647K) [application/x-bzip2] 17:08:45 Well that ain't right. 17:08:46 good question 17:09:02 wiki dumps tend to be quite large 17:09:07 Yeah, the current dump is fekked. 17:09:16 It's probably a dump from when the DB was borkleborked. 17:09:26 still contains all the info, though 17:09:38 ??? 17:09:48 How can it in only 2.8MB ... 17:12:31 virtualbox fails. It lists one CD drive. /dev/fd0 for use 17:12:34 now what the hell 17:12:45 how is that even a cd 17:14:43 it's a floppy CD 17:15:05 ais523, it is a drop down box, so I can't even enter the right one 17:21:47 yet more fun in the SCO bankruptcy; it seems that one of the new companies who's trying to get involved has almost the same address and phone number as one of the ones who showed up earlier 17:21:52 differing in just the last few characters 17:22:05 huh 17:22:22 AnMaster: it is unlikely to be a coincidence 17:22:27 Brillant. 17:22:29 ais523, duh 17:35:50 17:02 ais523: also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works 17:35:50 17:02 ais523: it's good to have at least 2 working backups 17:35:52 17:03 ais523: looks like the relevant information's there 17:35:54 no 17:35:56 that ws the issue 17:35:58 the last backup was broken 17:36:05 ah 17:36:11 it seems to contain the information, though, despite being broken 17:36:16 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:36:23 ais523: it did 17:36:26 and I don't have a working mediawiki to try to undump it to 17:36:27 but we had to rebuild a table 17:36:31 ok 17:36:33 by finding out the structure and shit 17:36:40 so the problem is that all backups only keep one 17:36:46 part from GregorR-L's 17:37:02 hmm... maybe we should make an xml backup as well as the sql one? 17:37:27 hg commit hoorah 17:38:16 Still, wtf is with the backup :P 17:40:00 huh, virtualbox doesn't simulate x86_64? 17:40:07 I have a 64-bit host so... 17:40:45 "Software virtualization is not supported for 64-bit VMs." <-- sigh. Makes it useless for me 17:41:15 AnMaster: qemu? 17:41:54 it supports 64-bit guests on 32-bit hosts for me 17:41:56 ehird, maybe. A pain to use though... I need to test some archlinux stuff in advance... 17:42:05 at least, it's supposed to 17:42:08 Asztal, only if you have hardware virtualization support 17:42:12 my cpu is too old for that 17:42:29 uhh 17:42:30 no 17:42:35 you can't HW virtualize 64 bit on 32 bit 17:42:57 ehird, yes you can. Of course the CPU has to be 64-bit. Just the host OS doesn't need to me 17:42:58 be* 17:43:21 ... 17:43:25 you need long mode, no? 17:43:55 ehird, yes but the kernel module for virtualbox would take care or changing to that temporarily. 17:44:03 o_x 17:44:07 you can't temporarily change to long mode 17:44:09 it's permanent 17:44:12 ehird, um no 17:44:18 ... 17:44:21 vmware supports it too btw 17:44:35 except it doesn't use VT-x/AMD-V 17:44:53 you mean it doesn't do the whole thing i'm talking about 17:45:04 ehird, I'm not sure what you are talking about 17:45:27 >_x 17:45:31 ehird, I'm talking about x86_64 OS running under virtualbox or vmware with a 32-bit host but a 64-bit *capable* CPU 17:45:40 which is perfectly possible 17:45:50 for virtualbox you also need VT-x/AMD-V however 17:46:08 i'm pretty sure only vmware does that. 17:46:32 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 17:46:33 ehird, I have the virtualbox documentation open 17:47:32 ehird, http://pastebin.ca/1504521 17:47:57 k 17:48:35 I can't link you to it, for some reason it decided to use some shitty chm file + kchmviewer to view the docs in 17:48:39 which is quite wtf 17:48:51 presumably, it was originally windows only 17:49:16 virtualbox you mean? Hm ok 17:49:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:52:38 Huh. If you google "recursion", Google returns "Did you mean: /Recursion/". 17:52:38 :D 17:52:46 pikhq, old... 17:52:52 as in 17:52:57 mentioned previously today 18:00:49 huh it even works in norwegian... 18:00:58 is today recursion day? 18:01:04 there's a ton of recursion "jokes" on reddit 18:01:15 No, recursion's just awesome. 18:01:20 it's not 18:01:22 it's low-level 18:01:33 recursion is the functional equivalent of goto 18:01:40 Fine, fine, so you want corecursion. 18:01:45 nnnnnnnnnnnnnnno. 18:02:02 ehird: a) recursion is the functional equivalent of goto; b) recursion is awesome anyway 18:02:08 "Recursion" as a concept encompasses things like recursive datatypes 18:02:10 ais523: yes, but goto is awesome too. 18:02:14 yes 18:02:15 ehird: that's only tail recursion... 18:02:24 oerjan: i meant in low-levelness. 18:10:01 Just as a data point; it does work in the Finnish version too. 18:11:47 you mean like rekursio? 18:11:50 cool 18:12:02 why don't we have a real term for that 18:12:12 like itseiskutsu 18:16:24 I'm sure Icelandic has their own word; they're so against loanwords. 18:17:19 Pretty much every language uses something "robot"-sounding for, well, robots; in Icelandic it's "þjarki". Okay, so there are a couple of other exceptions in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/robot too but still. 18:17:54 i just know they have their own for tv, but so does german, so 18:18:33 I can't quite be sure what the Bengali রোবট sounds like. 18:18:45 :) 18:18:48 hm "rekursio" does not work from norwegian google 18:19:15 is it rekursion in nor? 18:19:21 rekursjon 18:19:33 oh you do that sorta thing 18:19:38 "rekursio" and "recursion" both work for the Fi google; "rekursjon" doesn't. Well, it suggests "rekursion". 18:19:51 what does rekursion do 18:19:54 what's rekursion? 18:20:09 German, it seems. 18:20:13 lol 18:20:16 does it have the thingy on fi: 18:20:19 i thought swedish 18:20:42 It could be Swedish too, the top-ten hits seem rather German though. 18:20:54 does it have the correction on fi: 18:20:55 rekursion 18:21:31 Well, no. Just the Finnish "rekursio" and the English "recursion" seem to have the self-as-suggestion thing. 18:21:38 kay 18:21:45 i guess cause forners google in english a lot 18:22:01 yeah us does that 18:22:58 i don't really google in finnish at all 18:24:24 8th result (seen from here) for Finnish "rekursio" in .com Google (why didn't I just say google.com?) is one of those Finnish systems which collect links from IRC channels, stating that http://www.google.fi/search?q=rekursio was mentioned 4 hours ago in an "#entropy" channel at IRCnet. How recursive. 18:25:27 oh that link was said 18:25:29 right 18:25:33 i thought just the word recursino 18:25:35 *recursion 18:25:50 that would've been more interesting 18:26:46 fizzie: no, recursive would have been the "#esoteric" channel at Freenode, silly. 18:28:15 ah the recursino, the anti-elementary particle 18:28:31 that would've been significantly less interesting 18:28:52 think about it, a finnish channel with people talking about recursion 18:28:56 what a mindfuck 18:29:39 ontology was last said in this room 0 seconds ago 18:29:55 the recursino consists, of course, of two recursinos, a positron, and a left quark. 18:30:37 oerjan: minus two recursinos, duh 18:30:42 it's recursi-NO 18:31:04 ehird: rubbish, -ino is a common suffix for elementary particles 18:31:12 hm 18:31:13 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:31:20 I think that channel is for the electronic-music-themed sub-association-thing of the student union of my university, actually. I don't think they speak about recursion much. 18:31:21 you said it was an anti-elementary particle 18:31:27 but OK 18:31:33 why the positron and left quark, part of the joke, random, or inevitability because of some property of particles? 18:31:34 yes. maybe it should be recursi, then. 18:31:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:31:40 I think a recursino is two recursinos and a strange quark. 18:31:46 after all, there's nothing stranger than recursion 18:31:48 and it's like ` 18:31:56 combining the two recursinos in one 18:31:59 or something 18:32:00 oklopol: the left quark is essential. 18:32:17 no 18:32:20 the strange quark. 18:32:20 ehird: the left quark is also pretty strange 18:32:30 i should learn that stuff 18:32:31 yes but the strange quark lets you know it's strange 18:32:47 also left quarks don't actually exist 18:32:57 according to wikipedia at least :P 18:33:16 ehird: DUH 18:33:20 :P 18:33:23 in conclusion, recursino = {recursino, recursino, strange quark} 18:33:40 oerjan: hmm doesn't that give us infinite energy? 18:33:42 BOOOORING 18:33:45 no. 18:33:51 really 18:33:51 why not 18:33:57 it's infinite ... stuff 18:34:13 yes, but the extra energy is released as binding energy 18:34:22 hmm 18:34:35 recursino = {recursino, recursino, tachyon} 18:34:38 why not :D 18:34:51 oerjan: what would we need to do to give it infinite energy? 18:35:33 ehird: maybe some hilbert hotel trick with the constituents? 18:35:51 hmm 18:35:53 the hilbert hotel doesn't exist according to wikipedia 18:36:06 oerjan: i still don't see why you can't just use all the extra quarks/tachyons/whatever 18:36:10 descending through the recursinos 18:36:53 ehird: sure, but you use hilbert's hotel trick to get them out without leaving holes 18:36:59 ah 18:37:06 but that doesn't require changing the recursino does it? 18:37:17 wouldn't think so 18:37:37 oerjan: tachyons would pose a bit of weirdness though wouldn't they 18:37:46 having to put the energy BACK in or something :D 18:38:43 that is a bit beyond my expertise to answer 18:41:13 we may note that if a left quark decays to a strange quark and an electron, then those two compositions of the recursino may be equivalent 18:41:41 mine didn't have an electron 18:41:59 mine had an extra positron, duh 18:42:03 ah 18:42:04 recursino = {recursino, strange quark} 18:42:11 ↑ isn't that the minimum required for infinite energy 18:42:11 or wait 18:42:17 do you need two recursinos for the hilbert trick 18:42:27 probably not 18:42:51 Fine, fine, so you want corecursion. <-- ? 18:43:00 what is that 18:43:24 atm I'm on a handheld, so browser is not an easy option! 18:43:26 well, if you had read about corecursion, you would know 18:44:24 ... 18:44:50 what's rekursion?<-- probably Swedish too. But I seldom talk about programming in Swedish, so wouldn't know 18:46:19 "Notice that corecursion creates (potentially infinite) codata, whereas ordinary recursion analyses (necessarily finite) data." 18:46:45 fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) 18:47:00 is an example of corecursion in haskell 18:47:17 Delicious. 19:14:56 -!- coppro has joined. 19:18:08 oerjan, heh 19:19:56 ehird, btw did you order that linux system yet? 19:20:02 nope 19:20:14 ehird, preoccupied? 19:20:18 yup 19:20:22 kay 19:20:52 * AnMaster is waiting for arch to install under qemu 19:21:15 atm it is generating the damn initcpio thingy 19:22:21 huh new holiday logo at google... again only on search results page yet. 19:22:38 http://img0.gmodules.com/logos/comic-con09_res.gif 19:22:46 * AnMaster wonders what that is supposed to be 19:22:53 ehird, any idea= 19:22:55 s/=/?/ 19:23:29 nope 19:23:59 AnMaster: i seem to recognize some superheroes 19:24:03 Well, comic-con 09 is going on, so... 19:24:09 ah 19:24:10 oerjan, hm... 19:24:15 i guessed a con of some kind form the url 19:24:15 fizzie, *googles that* 19:24:17 http://www.ginside.com/content/2009/07/comics-comicon-google-logo.jpg has a bigger picture. 19:24:26 (I don't know where it came from.) 19:24:38 fizzie, where what came from? 19:24:39 batman, green lantern 19:24:54 Wonder woman is there too. 19:25:39 * ehird gets an urge to play super mario bros 1 19:25:40 robin i think 19:26:00 The small figure in the g hook? 19:26:00 and elastic man, if that's right in english 19:26:23 all DC heroes 19:26:30 yes 19:26:37 ehird, did you say arch on lvm was a bit tricky or whatever? I don't remember 19:26:49 it wasn't tricky once i set the right option in the kernel thing 19:27:03 oerjan: It seems to be Plastic Man in English. 19:27:34 ehird, well it seems it generated an /etc/fstab missing the root file system (which is on lvm...)( 19:27:37 fizzie: i recall they both exist, and are slightly different... 19:27:39 s/($// 19:27:41 * ehird realises he's terrible at smb 1 19:27:52 ehird, why not use cifs instead? 19:27:56 AnMaster: why are you partitioning such a small drive btw 19:27:59 even though that sucks too 19:28:04 that's just asking for a world of pain 19:28:07 ehird, what small drive? 19:28:13 the laptop i assume we're talking about 19:28:34 oerjan: Well, there's Elongated Man and Plastic Man who I can find references to. 19:28:39 ehird, I don't have the laptop yet... It will arrive on Monday or Thusday... But I'm testing something out... 19:28:49 ah yes elastic -> elongated 19:28:51 I'm just saying that LVM isn't a good path there because partitioning isn't 19:28:58 ehird, I need to partition it anyway: /boot swap / at minimum 19:29:01 Elastic Man in wikipedia redirects to Elongated Man; "he only created the character because he didn't realize DC Comics had acquired Plastic Man in 1956". 19:29:11 AnMaster: /boot doesn't need a partition 19:29:12 ehird, and I want encrypted /home anyway 19:29:17 and don't you have 4gb of ram in that thing anyway 19:29:20 ehird, yes it does, since I'm going for ext4 19:29:25 and grub can't handle it 19:29:27 oh. 19:29:42 ehird, as for ram, not by default no. But I ordered extra ram 19:29:51 to upgrade the 2 GB to 4 GB 19:30:10 does it have the 1680x1050 display? 19:30:43 ehird, don't remember numbers of the top of my head, but it was same as what you suggested for resolution anyway 19:30:52 and now I'm busy 19:31:09 maybe you'll finally appreciate subpixel antialiasing, you uncouth... thing. 19:32:47 there should be an smb 1 clone where you can just jump 19:32:50 you're always going right 19:33:10 fizzie: i conclude that google picture is closest to plastic man, though 19:34:44 i love J 19:34:45 J is awesome 19:34:49 fortunately, as it seems his suit design is more stable than that of the other guy 19:36:08 argh 19:36:10 it's pissing me off already 19:36:15 ehird, as I said about SMB... why not use CIFS? SMB is marked as deprecated in the kernel iirc... 19:36:18 r2d =: monad define 19:36:18 y + (o.1) - (o.1) 19:36:20 ) 19:36:22 should totally not be neccessary :P 19:36:27 AnMaster: Har har you are so funny I meant super mario brothers. 19:36:35 ehird, oh right 19:36:44 that SMB 19:36:55 ±_± 19:36:56 * GregorR-L tries to think of a name for a platformer that's CIFS for short. 19:37:18 CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE Fast Shooter 19:37:22 It works better if you imagine it's japanese. 19:37:30 ehird, why is that? 19:37:45 CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター 19:37:54 AnMaster: They all seem to have English phrases lumped in with their japanese. 19:37:58 Often UPPERCASE. 19:38:00 ehird, I assume you either copied those or made them up? 19:38:05 Google translate. 19:38:06 I mean the letters there 19:38:07 ah 19:38:08 ok 19:38:10 GregorR-L: coming in from space 19:38:14 It translates to "CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE fast shooter". 19:38:17 So, that's good. 19:38:27 Now I want to make CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター. 19:38:44 ehird, actually google could translate to some other meaning of fast or shooter 19:38:51 :P 19:39:09 No, I translated it back. 19:39:11 So it seems quite likely. 19:39:29 ehird, and? A language could have two different words for fast as in "speed" or fast as in "time" 19:39:39 so could your mom but I don't make a big deal of it 19:39:51 GregorR-L: chimpanzee investigators FROM SPACE 19:40:02 oerjan: :D 19:40:09 oerjan: YES. 19:40:17 "snabbt" would work for both in Swedish. But "fort" would be more idiomatic about speed and "kvickt" is probably better about time... 19:40:36 I wouldn't say using them in the other way is definitely wrong, just doesn't feel quite as right 19:41:08 ----------------------------------- 19:41:08 | Chimpanzee Investigators | 19:41:10 | ...FROM SPACE! | 19:41:12 ----------------------------------- 19:41:33 OMG 19:41:36 WE MUST MAKE THIS 19:41:48 I'm imagining it being a Lucas Arts-style adventure game. 19:41:49 And post a bunch of things about CIFS being better than SMB. 19:41:53 you are chimpanzees 19:41:55 you come from space 19:41:59 you are investigating a crime by a human 19:42:02 COMMITTED ON YOUR PLANET 19:42:08 insert planet of the apes references to taste 19:42:29 ehird: i note you solved the slight ambiguity in my originally intended way 19:42:41 yes 19:42:46 the other way didn't even occur to me 19:42:49 until now 19:44:16 oklopol: you can't do infinite lists in J can you 19:44:19 what other way? 19:44:25 this sounds familiar.... 19:44:30 Plan 9 reference? 19:44:32 AnMaster: things that investigate chimpanzees 19:44:32 ehird: not directly no 19:44:35 as opposed to chimpanzees that investigate 19:44:38 oklopol: "not directly"? 19:44:40 i mean i don't know how at least 19:44:47 hmm i guess you could box some code of how to generate the rest 19:44:52 with the first element 19:44:55 ehird, make it "FROM OUTER SPACE" 19:44:56 ehird: well you can do a retarded sort of oo, so technically it's possible 19:44:59 so it is a Plan9 reference too 19:45:06 oklopol: ugh apart from that 19:45:11 AnMaster: that's... not a plan 9 reference 19:45:13 that's just a cliche 19:45:26 AnMaster: the acronym was predetermined 19:45:28 ehird, Well true 19:45:42 I was thinking humans who investigate chimpanzees, but this is admittedly better. 19:45:53 GregorR-L: humans from... space? 19:45:54 :D 19:46:04 things that annoy me: J tries to coerce towards doubles, not rationals 19:46:05 They're from space if the chimpanzee planet isn't Earth :P 19:46:13 1r2,%11 = 0.5 0.0909091 19:46:34 1r3,%11 = 0.333333 0.0909091 19:46:37 fuckin' sux 19:46:39 GregorR-L: lol 19:47:41 it should end with a huge WTF 19:47:41 like 19:47:55 the alien race are actually descendents of the chimpanzees 19:47:57 or the other way around 19:48:05 (this after an inevitable love interest, thus giving extra yuks) 19:48:06 and uh 19:48:08 they're all going to di 19:48:09 e 19:48:11 because of something 19:48:12 OR MAYBE IT'S ALL A DREAM 19:48:12 i don't know 19:48:15 oklopol: WHOA 19:48:17 good one man 19:48:21 :p 19:48:22 WHAT A MAJOR TWIST WOULD THAT BE 19:48:34 twists suck 19:48:42 i'm just _sure_ jane goodall is involved somehow. 19:48:46 i prefer actually-we-just-didn't-tell-you-this-ists 19:48:54 oerjan: ! 19:48:54 jane goodall is actually a chimp 19:50:13 hmm 19:50:24 GregorR-L: maybe CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター could be a subgame; part of a broken-down arcade 19:50:30 with games like… uh… 19:50:35 Snot Custard Warrior 19:50:45 catchphrase: "S'not custard... it's SNOT!" 19:50:55 i'm so lame 19:50:56 i love being lame 19:51:04 moving is for idiots 19:51:12 hahahaha geddit 19:52:38 Here's a stupid twist: 19:52:55 At the end you wake up, your vision unblurs and you see that you're surrounded by (human) doctors. 19:52:59 Blah blah blah something about a coma. 19:53:09 Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee! 19:53:16 and then 19:53:25 you go back to the controlling 19:53:26 and 19:53:31 you have to swipe off the humans 19:53:32 revealing 19:53:39 THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS 19:54:00 they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO 19:54:06 ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE 19:54:18 blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah 19:54:26 WOW. 19:56:23 ehird, btw I tried 32-bit arch under virtualbox... Got hit by this bug: http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/2149 20:02:19 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 20:03:34 Jul 23 14:53:09 Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee! 20:03:34 Oh and btw those guys are the chimpanzee investigators. 20:03:34 Thought that would be clear but rereading maybe it's not :P 20:03:45 GregorR-L, ? 20:03:45 I got d/c'd before I could finish my twist. 20:03:47 last we saw was: 20:03:51 GregorR-L_: Oh, ha. 20:03:53 ah yes it was that 20:03:56 GregorR-L_: Here's how I continued: 20:04:04 Yes, I have a log 20:04:05 19:53 GregorR-L: Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee! 20:04:05 19:53 ehird: and then 20:04:06 19:53 ehird: you go back to the controlling 20:04:07 >_< 20:04:08 19:53 ehird: and 20:04:10 19:53 ehird: you have to swipe off the humans 20:04:12 19:53 ehird: revealing 20:04:14 19:53 ehird: THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS 20:04:16 19:54 ehird: they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO 20:04:19 19:54 ehird: ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE 20:04:21 19:54 ehird: blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah 20:04:23 19:54 ehird: WOW. 20:04:25 it can be tied into yours easily 20:04:27 :P 20:04:29 turns out the chimpanzee investigators are the bad guys hur hur 20:04:31 man i'm awesome at terrible twists 20:04:41 GregorR-L, great ability for a sequel there... 20:04:44 err 20:04:46 posibility* 20:04:54 possibility* 20:05:20 *possessability 20:05:26 that too 20:05:45 :P 20:05:52 GregorR-L_: rate my continuation of the twist on a scale of -10 to 0 20:06:31 It doesn't QUITE mesh with mine, since, y'know, why are the chimpanzee investigators throwing out a perfectly good chimpanzee? 20:06:35 ehird: 3i - 16 20:06:50 GregorR-L_: hmm true 20:06:53 well we can amend that part 20:06:55 he escapes 20:06:58 instead of being thrown out 20:07:00 Perfect! 20:07:05 NO 20:07:06 It is now a perfect ... 0? 20:07:11 the sequel is about escaping 20:07:11 Yes! 20:07:12 duh 20:07:12 GregorR-L_: to investigate its behavior in the WILD, duh 20:07:13 A perfect 0. 20:07:14 AnMaster: no. 20:07:16 escaping is easy. 20:07:18 it's just a building. 20:07:19 :P 20:07:21 ehird, hm ok 20:07:24 oerjan: haha 20:07:26 true 20:10:17 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:32 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 20:30:22 ehird, btw the reason I want to use lvm is simple: 1) I want ext4, so /boot must be separate anyway 2) I want encrypted /home but not anything else encrypted. 3) I don't know how large /home and how large / I will need... So I'm going for lvm to be able to resize as I need it. 20:30:42 what I'm about to test is that resizing work when encryption is used 20:32:38 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:36:02 AnMaster: Strictly speaking, the encryption isn't through LVM. 20:36:11 pikhq, of course 20:36:29 what I meant was encrypting an LVM lv 20:36:44 and if you could still grow that lv (and the file system inside it) then 20:36:51 which I'm still not sure about 20:36:59 Should work just fine, assuming that the dm-crypt volume is growable. 20:37:17 If not, you'll need to make another dm-crypt volume and have your logical volume on two physical volumes. 20:38:29 pikhq, IDEA (lower layer first): PV - VG - LV:/home - cryptsetup-luks - /dev/encrypted-home - /home 20:38:58 so question is, if the layer LV grows, can the cryptsetup layer grow (and, of course, the file system in it) 20:39:23 The only question with that is cryptsetup's capabilities. 20:39:30 pikhq, indeed 20:40:01 and it has a resize option, yet it seems some people indicate it only works for plain volumes, not LUKS ones 20:40:46 Well, what you can do is grow the logical volume, then grow the encrypted volume, then grow the filesystem. 20:40:52 I see no reason why that wouldn't work... 20:41:01 pikhq, see top of http://www.saout.de/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=ResizeLUKSPartitions 20:41:10 so I wonder if it will work 20:41:17 god i love reading j 20:41:19 atm trying to set up a volume to test with 20:49:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:50:45 C++0x is dead, long live C++1x. 20:50:48 (it's official now!) 20:52:16 lawl 20:53:41 C++0xa, C++0x for short 20:54:37 ok resize works as expected 20:54:37 :) 20:54:58 * AnMaster deletes the vm now that he is done with it... 20:55:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 20:59:31 Deewiant, would have been a nice retcon 20:59:57 anyway isn't it a case of second system syndrome? 21:00:20 C++ itself is, C++0x not so much 21:00:22 well.. second *standard* one 21:00:27 Deewiant, well yeah 21:00:33 so third system then 21:00:34 * oerjan wanted to chip in with third, there 21:00:55 oerjan, I wanted to say that! 21:00:56 :P 21:01:20 well why didn't you, then 21:01:37 oerjan, hah you know what I mean 21:01:58 wink wink, nudge nudge 21:02:34 nudge? 21:03:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge 21:16:22 That sketch is nice 21:20:32 20:41 oklopol: god i love reading j 21:20:33 ditto 21:26:48 except when it takes 20 minutes and i realize i must not perfectly understand the parsing 21:26:59 the fucking adverbs 21:27:01 asd 21:27:04 but usually 21:27:28 oklopol: what code are you reading, i just love to see new j code 21:27:47 i generally just read the labs, still plenty of unread material there 21:28:06 the labs are too linear for me. 21:28:22 understandable 21:29:10 i mean i don't feel like i'm being taught hte language 21:29:21 i feel more like i'm being dictated marketspeak of how good the language is 21:29:28 :D 21:29:41 they aren't very good learning material 21:30:03 oh and it isn't just dictating how good the language is 21:30:12 it's making ME participate, in rigidly defined ways 21:30:12 mainly because it's tons of work to actually read the sample code, because it's always 50% completely new things the labs don't explain 21:31:13 i learn best from books, should probably buy a j one 21:31:38 oklopol: most of the books are in the j docs 21:31:41 you should write your own 21:32:08 call it "j is kind of like a rabbit" or somehting 21:32:12 and make it an extended metaphor about rabbits 21:32:27 sounds like a good idea 21:32:39 like 21:32:49 "% is like a rabbit's ears. it divides numbers." 21:33:01 :-D 21:33:08 m&v y is defined as m v y 21:33:11 Use of the bond conjunction is often called Currying in honor of Haskell Curry. 21:33:26 i don't get it. 21:33:26 Haskell Curry was a rabbit 21:33:35 oklopol: (m&v) y = m v y 21:33:39 foo =: m & v 21:33:41 foo y 21:33:43 → 21:33:44 why is it currying? 21:33:45 m v y 21:33:47 oklopol: oh 21:33:50 well 21:33:51 it's not 21:33:53 it's partial application 21:34:00 but non-functional programmers often call partial application currying 21:34:10 even though currying is just making al lfunctions one-argument, which SUPPORTS partial application inherently 21:34:18 but the uncouth masses do not realise this, oh no 21:34:20 oh lol the other meaning of & 21:34:25 sorry 21:34:28 xD 21:34:30 ur dumb 21:35:04 i can see how partial application is kinda currying, but & is also a synonym for @ 21:35:08 i was thinking that 21:36:48 oklopol: i don't think @ = & 21:36:59 not in general 21:37:00 at least, the docs don't mention it 21:37:33 (+:&-) 5 21:37:34 _10 21:37:34 (+:@-) 5 21:37:34 _10 21:37:41 used with two functions, it's the same thing 21:37:45 monadically 21:38:13 well i dunno about ranks, @ forces same rank, i don't know what & does with it 21:38:20 but that's just j details 21:38:35 oklopol: you mean jetails 21:38:42 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 21:38:57 "The closest approach to Uranus occurred on January 24, 1986," 21:38:59 those poor ailing jets 21:38:59 — Wikipedia 21:45:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:01:29 ehird, would you consider it insane designing your own initramfs from scratch? 22:01:39 Yes. 22:01:42 great! 22:01:53 ehird, it's like LFS... but even better 22:01:56 AnMaster: you know, I think the university might want you to do other things than constantly rewrite your computer 22:02:14 ehird, I plan to do this before... 22:02:32 Yes, until it needs changing. 22:02:48 ehird, still I can do it in a VM just for fun, can't I? 22:03:04 Well, yes. I mean, I don't think it's physically impossible or anything. 22:03:14 ehird, of course not 22:04:12 http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Initramfs <-- I love you gentoo wiki 22:04:39 yes gentoo has a tool if you don't want to mess with kernel. called gen-kernel or something like that 22:04:40 -!- coppro has joined. 22:04:56 iirc there is even another way to create an initramfs if you want to 22:04:59 but this is even better 22:08:10 genkernel. 22:08:17 Genkernel is pretty awesome. 22:08:38 pikhq, is it? I avoid initramfs whenever I can 22:08:42 (though I still have it do menuconfig, it creates really nice initramfs's) 22:08:48 I much prefer having exactly the drivers I need! 22:08:59 I've got root on LVM. 22:09:16 pikhq, yes that is what I'm going for on the laptop, thus I'm checking this out 22:09:29 GregorR: did you install ksplice? 22:09:36 Nope :P 22:09:57 the initramfs's (argh, "initrds" is so much simpler to say!) created by the arch linux system for doing that tends to be rather bloated 22:09:58 pikhq, ^ 22:09:59 pfft 22:10:11 AnMaster: initramfses 22:10:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:10:15 and creating a minimal one should be trivial... 22:10:22 the drivers will be in kernel anyway 22:10:24 initramfs's doesn't make sense, and it would be initramfs' anyway 22:10:27 since I always do custom kernel 22:10:43 ehird, what about the initramfses' cars 22:10:51 (just a grammatical example) 22:10:52 AnMaster: genkernel can be configured not to have any modules in the initramfs. 22:10:56 AnMaster: yes, that's valid 22:11:02 pikhq, I'm NOT going to do gentoo on the laptop 22:11:05 initramfs's didn't make sense in THAT CONTEXT 22:11:06 so highly irrelevant 22:11:11 So, all it has then is busybox and LVM and such. 22:11:11 :p 22:11:33 Y'know, if I got a laptop for a utilitarian purpose, I'd probably just stick stock Ubuntu on it. 22:11:37 Y'all crazy fuckers. 22:11:53 pikhq, mine will have busybox and lvm.static I guess. no need for cryptsetup since that is for /home only 22:11:59 If I've got a system I don't want to fuck with much, I stick Debian on it. 22:12:09 well I guess I need mount too 22:12:13 but busybox have it iirc 22:12:16 jhas* 22:12:18 has* 22:12:22 yeah, i'd just pick ubuntu cuz the install's quicker/easier and the gui integration is nicer 22:12:24 but really 22:12:29 fucking with initramfs? 22:12:39 wait hm 22:12:45 ehird: I don't fuck with initramfs, though. 22:12:47 since lvm creates dynamic devices 22:12:52 won't I need some replacement for udev? 22:12:54 pikhq: you're san*er* then :P 22:12:58 like the mdev thingy in busybox? 22:13:03 AnMaster: why not use udev 22:13:06 I just happen to know that genkernel lets you configure how it makes the initramfs if needed. 22:13:14 ehird, on a initramfs? You must be insane 22:13:19 *an 22:13:37 (AnMaster: *an, that is) 22:13:54 # qlist udev | wc -l 22:13:54 83 22:14:11 plus 22:14:15 it needs lot of libraries 22:14:22 on a initramfs you don't want much 22:14:24 ehird: I only run Gentoo on my desktop because I want to fiddle with some things. If it weren't for that, I'd be running Debian. 22:14:28 i don't even know what you're doing but it's probably not even needed since i don't see any other distro having a problem with it 22:14:36 pikhq: hey now, debian's pretty fiddleable 22:14:39 ehird, what? 22:14:49 AnMaster: i don't even know what or why you're doing whatever it is your doing 22:14:54 USE is more-so. 22:15:15 ehird, I could use the initramfs generation script from arch linux. But it generates very slow booting initramfses 22:15:19 I checked with/without 22:15:22 on phoenix 22:15:31 30 seconds vs. 14 seconds booting time? 22:15:35 But anyways, yeah. There's no freaking sense in making a custom initramfs when a normal one would work just fine. 22:15:35 AnMaster: 22:15:37 nobody turns off laptops 22:15:44 you close the top, which suspends to ram and then disk 22:16:01 "and then"? 22:16:02 y'know, so that it takes 5-10 seconds to sit down and use as opposed to 30 22:16:05 how do you do that 22:16:20 AnMaster: windows, ubuntu and os x do it by default 22:16:24 well right 22:16:27 ehird, but HOW 22:16:29 ehird, acpid? 22:16:29 hybrid S2 suspend magic thingy #555// initram 22:16:31 i don't know 22:16:34 try the google 22:16:59 ehird, googling for what? 22:17:10 "suspend on close laptop gentoo" 22:17:15 (because gentoo is the most popular DIY distro) 22:17:18 (you'll get the best results) 22:17:35 ehird, well that is easy... What I meant was... how do you do the "magic change to disk suspending some minutes later" 22:17:46 AnMaster: it's part of the suspend/resume suite thing 22:17:52 ram, disk and hybrid 22:17:54 you just do hybrid 22:17:59 it stays on until it persists it all to ram 22:18:02 er 22:18:03 to disk 22:18:04 then turns off completely 22:18:10 well 22:18:14 it doesn't do a total shutdown 22:18:14 err? 22:18:18 it goes right back in when you open it up 22:18:20 but it uses 0 power 22:18:34 AnMaster: urgh, it's s2_suspend -hybrid or something 22:18:36 ehird: Right, it suspends to swap. 22:18:41 ehird, isn't the point of suspend to disk that it is total shutdown? I used suspend to disk on desktops... 22:18:42 from the same thing that does suspend/resumes normally 22:18:46 AnMaster: it IS 22:18:49 but it doesn't go back to the bios 22:18:49 IIRC 22:18:51 because, you know 22:18:53 that'd be slow 22:18:56 ehird, and I even unplugged the computer in between 22:18:59 i don't know what it does, but it does totally turn off 22:19:06 it's just that when you start it up again, magic happens 22:19:09 ehird, yes it did. Just BIOS didn't show the usual booting screen 22:19:09 and you go straight back to the OS 22:19:11 afterwards 22:19:19 AnMaster: well, it didn't load the kernel or anything either afaik 22:19:20 it said "resuming" instead 22:19:22 because it takes like 5 seconds total 22:19:27 maybe 10 22:19:29 anyway 22:20:10 ehird, according to this: http://www.gentoo.org/images/energy-budget.png we should go back to using lamps and switches to poke the registers... 22:20:15 instead of displays 22:20:28 AnMaster: no, we should just use OLEDs 22:20:45 right. What about their lifetime though? 22:20:52 have they fixed that yet 22:20:52 they last longer than LCDs. 22:20:55 in new research 22:20:58 AnMaster: also, it doesn't matter, really 22:20:59 ah good 22:21:04 laptops are the biggest computer market 22:21:06 *waits for it to become common in laptops* 22:21:08 and the standard laptop replace time is 2-3 years 22:21:22 ehird, not mine. I'm not going to replace it that quickly 22:21:22 anyway, <3 OLEDs. black is really black, awesome colours, excellent backlight and tiny power usag 22:21:22 e 22:21:26 it would be waseful 22:21:29 wasteful* 22:21:47 ehird, black is really black <--- didn't you say constrast didn't matter that much? 22:21:52 it doesn't 22:21:58 but actual black on current displays 22:22:01 still has a bit of backlight 22:22:13 (also, not "that much"; at all. it doesn't matter one jot because you can't get displays low enough to matter) 22:22:23 but yeah, with OLEDs, black truly has no light 22:22:30 and also, colours can still be improved with the backlight 22:22:35 which OLEDs, of course, do 22:22:41 because there's no "backlight" 22:22:57 oh, and of course you can make bendable OLED displays, transparent OLED displays and they're all super, super light 22:23:30 ehird, how bendable? As in folding it? 22:23:36 yep 22:23:40 and putting something heavy on top of the fold? 22:23:42 well, it won't stay folded, probably 22:23:45 and still have it working? 22:23:50 AnMaster: erm, unlikely 22:23:54 but you can take two ends and pinch them together 22:23:57 and hold it like that indefinitely 22:24:05 ehird, and flattern out the fold? 22:24:13 I wouldn't do that btw 22:24:18 well, if you get it really flat the bit at the bend will probably fuck up 22:24:25 and any great weight is probably gonna damage it 22:24:31 but they're durable 22:24:34 ehird, so you can't store them folded easily 22:24:35 right 22:24:44 hah 22:24:44 what is the point of making them fold then! 22:24:48 *haha 22:24:51 AnMaster: visors 22:24:56 ok that makes sense 22:24:57 screens that surround a whole room 22:24:58 etc 22:25:05 but what is wrong with HUD for visors? 22:25:18 it is what is used in modern fighter pilot helmets for example 22:25:24 AnMaster: HUDs just do one-colour vector graphics 22:25:27 that's LAAAAAAAAAME 22:25:38 you could display movies, overlay full-colour photographs, ... with a bendable, transparent OLED visor 22:25:39 ehird, you can see through though. Which is good for the application 22:25:40 also 22:25:45 AnMaster: there are transparent OLEDs 22:25:47 vector graphics *displays* rocks 22:25:50 and there are transparent ones that are also bendable 22:26:01 (the colour isn't too good on them but that can be improved) 22:26:03 (they're at trade-show level atm) 22:26:09 ehird, assuming they really can draw smooth diagonal lines 22:27:13 ehird, also there are two colour HUDs. Like a different colour for some of the graphics... I have seen it. Forgot what aircraft. 22:27:19 meh 22:27:21 OLEDs are better 22:27:55 ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display 22:28:12 eh 22:28:17 wearable computing shit has stuff like that 22:28:22 HUD are split into 3 generations reflecting the technology used to generate the images. 22:28:22 First Generation - Use a CRT to generate an image on a phospher screen, these had the disadvantage of fading with time as the phospher burns out. These systems still make up the majority of HUDs in operation today 22:28:22 Second Generation - Use solid state light sources LED or similar which is modulated by a LCD screen to display an image. This removes the fading with time and also the high voltages that were required for first generation systems. These systems are on commerical aircraft. 22:28:23 but OLEDs are stil lso much cooler, dammit 22:28:25 ehird, ^ 22:28:31 don't care 22:28:31 one colour only eh? 22:28:33 vector? 22:28:39 maybe you meant: 22:28:40 Third Generation - Use optical waveguides to produce an image directly in the combiner rather than use a projection system. 22:28:42 i thought hud = heads up display 22:28:44 so stfu 22:28:45 (not sure how that works) 22:28:48 ehird, yes it is 22:28:53 I'm quoting HUD page now 22:28:57 no 22:28:59 helmet mounted display 22:28:59 != 22:29:01 heads up display 22:29:02 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation 22:29:03 is 22:29:04 what 22:29:04 two different articles 22:29:06 I'm 22:29:07 quoting 22:29:08 DUH 22:29:14 about HUDs 22:29:17 HUD = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display 22:29:28 ehird, YES THAT IS WHAT I SAID 22:29:31 READ THE LINK PLEASE 22:29:34 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation 22:29:35 is NOT 22:29:41 ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display 22:29:50 I mentioned two different articles 22:29:53 it sure is fun watching you get worked up 22:30:09 ehird, is sure tragic watching you fail to read 22:30:32 and even fail to accept that once I pointed out I wasn't quoting the same thing any more 22:33:10 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:35:28 -!- GregorR has joined. 23:18:04 http://imgur.com/900rW.png 23:18:20 False dichotomy 2: electric boogaloo! 23:18:30 Wow :P 23:19:00 I especially like how that implies that "I don't like him" is grounds for impeachment :P 23:20:46 History shows that only blowjobs are grounds for impeachment. 23:21:00 And not crimes against humanity. 23:21:05 Or war crimes. 23:21:09 I'll impeach your blowjob. 23:21:11 If you don't know what I mean. 23:21:38 Or violations of treaties. Or blatant violations of the Constitution. 23:21:59 always great to finish a 6-page article after about 10 hours of reading. 23:22:03 Or the brutal rape of the English language! 23:22:27 That wasn't rape. English is always willing. 23:24:50 lol 23:24:58 `addquote Or the brutal rape of the English language! That wasn't rape. English is always willing. 23:24:59 46| Or the brutal rape of the English language! That wasn't rape. English is always willing. 23:25:21 English porn. 23:25:28 aka Bush oratory videos. 23:25:30 Oratory sex 23:31:51 Anyway, this was mentioned a while ago in here, but 23:32:09 No Person except (a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States), at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President. 23:32:34 Nobody born in America since the ratification of the Constitution has been legally elected president. 23:32:38 Wake up sheeple :-P 23:34:32 [[While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight.]] 23:34:35 ↑ You can tell they're pretentious assholes from one paragraph! 23:34:57 ehird, what does "BTQ" mean? 23:35:02 Beg the Question 23:35:10 it's barbeque but you also have tea 23:35:17 http://begthequestion.info/; response telling them to shut the living fuck up: http://severinghaus.org/static/beg/ 23:35:21 ehird loves dat 23:35:28 oklopol: that sounds amazing 23:35:53 maybe we should do it 23:36:03 oklopol: like, an #esoteric BTQ? 23:36:08 yes! 23:36:16 holy shit, you've discovered the only way an #esoteric meetup could possibly work: 23:36:18 with bacon and tea 23:36:25 it must happen 23:36:27 -!- GregorR has changed nick to LaissezFaireLing. 23:36:32 :( 23:36:40 Gregor is laissezfaireling... in bed. 23:36:42 No laissez faire linguistics for me. 23:37:11 So who in here likes (a) barbeqae and (b) tea? 23:37:18 -!- LaissezFaireLing has changed nick to write. 23:37:20 Answers on a postcard^W^Hn IRC message. 23:37:31 I like barbeque but not tea. 23:38:02 write: (1, "Hello, world!\n", 14); 23:38:05 Also, why on earth don't you like tea. 23:38:33 Because, like coffee, beer, wine and virtually all other beverages, it tastes like bitter water to me? 23:38:48 what do you drink? 23:38:49 What's wrong with tea? 23:38:53 * FireFly likes tea 23:38:54 write: Oh right 23:39:02 I drink water and soda. And soda water. 23:39:03 FireFly: write's tongue is retarded 23:39:04 with bacon and tea <-- no no. You forgot the garlic 23:39:06 (Oh write) 23:39:11 oklopol: Actually it's my nose. 23:39:13 AnMaster: just put garlic on the bacon. anyway you're not invited :P 23:39:30 write: oh? i don't really have any sense of smell either 23:39:33 ehird, sure I am! 23:39:35 Ah, at first I thought you meant tounge, as in... speach 23:39:39 Or, well, uh 23:39:40 lol 23:39:44 "language"? :P 23:39:48 AnMaster: no, you're not, because it'd end in physical violence 23:39:51 Yeah, that's more like it 23:39:51 QED 23:39:52 I guess 23:39:52 also I dislike tea. 23:39:54 FireFly: "speech" 23:40:00 AnMaster: Then you're super-not-invited! 23:40:00 water maybe? 23:40:04 No. 23:40:10 ehird, duh. Who cares about you :P 23:40:12 Can we make bacon tea? 23:40:14 The tea is uncompromisable. Isn't that right oklopol. 23:40:18 usually when someone farts in the room, i virtually have to stick my nose up their butt before i can smell it 23:40:26 oklopol: I don't think you should do that 23:40:32 oklopol: ... not recommended. 23:40:37 write: Ooh... you could pour freshly-made tea over bacon while it's sizzling. 23:40:43 Tea-flavoured bacon! 23:40:52 teacon! 23:40:55 ehird: I was thinking you put freshly-cooked bacon in water and boil it :P 23:40:58 Teacon! 23:41:02 Teakcon 23:41:05 write: That'd just taste like broth or something. 23:41:12 teacockque 23:41:13 Teacon, a convention about tea? 23:41:21 ehird: Touche :P 23:41:22 oklopol: Is that when you masturbate into tea and then interrogate it? 23:41:44 Teacon is pronounced like a Jamaican would say "taken". 23:41:52 no that's the afterparty for.. well augur 23:41:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:41:56 Te from tea, acon from bacon. 23:42:10 oklopol: What, you have to be gay to masturbate into tea? 23:42:20 (Also, "beercan" is pronounced like a Jamaican would pronounce "bacon".) 23:42:41 ehird: YOUR JAMAICANS ARE WEIRD 23:42:53 Shut up :P 23:43:09 Anyway, we should totally do the BTQ. 23:43:09 ...like, not in a sexual sense. 23:43:10 write: you probably have to be something other than gay to enjoy masturbating in tea, actually 23:43:15 In a doing-of-creation-god-you-know-like-genesis ... thingy. Sense. 23:43:17 You know. 23:43:21 if someone knows the latin for tea, tell me what the fetish is called 23:43:45 tea-fucking 23:43:49 tucking 23:46:33 brb. 23:47:25 actually nevermind 23:47:25 so 23:47:26 BTQ 23:47:34 `etymology tea 23:47:36 tea \ 1655, earlier chaa (1598, from Port. cha), from Malay teh and directly from Chinese (Amoy dialect) t'e, in Mandarin ch'a. The distribution of the different forms of the word reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The modern Eng. form, along with Fr. the, Sp. te, Ger. Tee, etc., derive via Du. thee from the Amoy 23:47:46 actually brb 23:47:53 I'm betting Latin for tea was "oh shit we haven't discovered tea yet" 23:47:55 `etymology aoeu 23:47:56 No output. 23:47:58 :( 23:48:03 `etymology foo 23:48:05 food \ O.E. foda, from P.Gmc. *fodon (cf. Goth. fodeins), from Gmc. root *fod-, equivalent of PIE *pa-/*pi- "to tend, keep, pasture, to protect, to guard, to feed" (cf. Gk. pateisthai "to feed;" L. pabulum "food, fodder," panis "bread," pasci "to feed," pascare "to graze, pasture, feed," pastor "shepherd," lit. "feeder;" 23:48:07 lol 23:56:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:57:23 -!- write has changed nick to GregorR. 23:59:54 Delicious gravy is delicious.