00:00:46 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAAA_battery
00:02:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:02:24 <GregorR> Apparently the best way to get them is by fekking up your favorite 9-volt :P
00:03:10 <ehird> why isn't there a battery that's superthin but very tall and wide?
00:03:15 <ehird> like smartphone size
00:03:23 <ehird> that's get some gooooood battery life
00:08:45 <ais523> ehird: might be quite hard to make, modern battery manufacture is inherently 3-dimensional
00:09:03 <ais523> I wouldn't think it would be impossible, but it would be very fiddly
00:09:22 <ehird> intuitively it'd seem like it'd pack a LOT of battery life
00:09:37 <ehird> ais523: it'd be heavy, wouldn't it?
00:09:55 <ais523> relatively, most of it will be solid metal and the bits that aren't would be gel stuff
00:10:00 <ais523> whereas things like phones are mostly air
00:10:47 <ehird> ais523: are you sure about that?
00:10:51 <ehird> i'm not sure my iphone is mostly air
00:11:08 <ais523> ehird: the motherboard generally doesn't fit exactly 3-dimensionally into a case
00:11:13 <ehird> it's an LCD, a board with multiple chips and volatile and non-volatile memory, speakers, ports, ...
00:11:16 <ais523> and the inside of chips is also mostly air
00:11:17 <ehird> ais523: i think the iphone's is close
00:11:26 <ehird> ais523: heatspreaders aren't air, are they?
00:11:33 <ais523> they're half air, half metal
00:11:35 <ehird> i mean, ok, an actual chip is gonna be mostly ... nothing
00:11:40 <ais523> trying to get as much surface area as possible
00:11:50 <ehird> ais523: but it's an ARM chip
00:11:53 <ehird> it doesn't get very hot
00:12:04 <ais523> then it won't need a very big heatsink
00:12:08 <ehird> ais523: it has none
00:12:12 <ehird> just a heatspreader
00:12:21 <ais523> it does, it'll be the wires connecting it to the motherboard
00:12:30 <ais523> they're a sort of rudimentary heatsink, that every chip has
00:12:39 <ais523> sometimes it's enough by itself, for low powered things
00:12:44 <ehird> occasionally the top of my iphone is sort of between warm and hot
00:12:51 <ehird> as in, if i hold it there, i definitely notice it constantly
00:12:53 <ehird> but it's fine to touch
00:12:55 <ais523> I've actually seen chips where they added extra pins simply for the purpose of absorbing heat
00:13:10 <ehird> but that's mostly the metal, I imagine
00:14:12 <ais523> it's still going to be lighter than a battery, as the outside is going to be mostly plastic whereas batteries are mostly metal
00:14:33 <ehird> ais523: http://makezine.com/hackszine/iphone_20070629.jpg http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/iPhone-Disassembled-3.jpg http://www.iphonebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/iphone-_3g_dismantle_2.jpg
00:14:37 <ehird> the iphone hardware fits _exactly_
00:14:43 <ais523> that really doesn't surprise me at all
00:14:52 <ehird> (note that the last one is the 3G and the previous two are the original, but)
00:15:00 <ehird> it's a really tight fit
00:15:01 <ais523> although unless all the chips on the board are exactly the same height, there'll still be air gaps vertically even with an exact fit
00:15:04 <ehird> couldn't even fit a pin in there
00:18:38 <ehird> also, you know what's awesome?
00:18:46 <ehird> the palm pre has wireless charging.
00:18:55 <ehird> "It's referred to as "The Puck," and you just click the back of the Pre onto its flat surface and the juice starts to flow."
00:18:59 <ehird> needs more... wirelessosity, though.
00:19:07 <ehird> like, say... across the room? :D
00:19:22 <ehird> (at this point, ais523 tells me why that's totally impossible)
00:19:49 <ais523> ehird: not impossible, although it will be hilariously inefficient unless the charge coil goes all the way around the room, say built into the walls
00:20:04 <ehird> ais523: hmm, is that safe?
00:20:07 <ehird> like, instead of microwaves
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00:20:11 <ehird> gigantic microwaves.
00:20:27 <ais523> ehird: who knows? it's used at low power in order to send information to hearing aids
00:20:44 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's been researched what happens if you put enough power in there to charge a smartphone
00:21:08 <ehird> if it is safe, let's put it in every building!
00:21:09 <ais523> next time you see a sign saying "if you have a behind-the-ear hearing aid set it to T", you know there's an induction loop in the room
00:21:13 <pikhq> I know a great wireless power solution.
00:21:22 <ehird> ais523: i thought that was radio-powered or something
00:21:29 <ais523> ehird: nope, it's induction
00:21:29 <ehird> pikhq: nice way to kill yourself walking across the room :D
00:21:31 <ehird> it'd be like the movies
00:21:35 <ehird> with the crisscross of laser wires
00:21:38 <ehird> except they kill you
00:21:49 <ais523> ehird: you can't draw a whole lot of current from a tesla coil, quite likely you'd survive it
00:21:49 <pikhq> ehird: You realise that's what Tesla coils are for, right?
00:22:14 <ehird> pikhq: i was referring to the
00:22:22 <ehird> ...what's it called
00:22:31 <ehird> wow i get dumb sometimes
00:22:35 <ehird> i know stuff on paper
00:22:46 <ais523> ehird: as I said, you can't draw significant current from one of those
00:22:49 <pikhq> ... That would be a different bit of high-voltage stuff.
00:22:51 <ais523> although the massive voltage sort-of cancels it out
00:22:57 <ehird> ais523: what, it's safe to touch?
00:23:02 <ehird> i find that hard to believe
00:23:06 <ais523> ehird: I've seen someone holding a flourescent light
00:23:09 <ais523> and walking into a tesla coil
00:23:20 <ehird> must have felt tingly
00:23:26 <pikhq> Very large coils are dangerous.
00:23:34 <ais523> yes, you can make Tesla coils powerful enough to hurt a human
00:23:39 <ais523> but most of the time you wouldn't
00:23:39 <pikhq> Those are generally not seen without metal cages around them.
00:23:53 <ehird> i saw a video on youtube a year or two ago where a guy played the mario theme on a tesla coil
00:24:16 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1O2jcfOylU dunno if this was it, but
00:24:35 <ehird> and comes with built in visualiser!
00:24:41 <pikhq> Tesla intended to make coils large enough to be dangerous nearby, though.
00:24:49 <pikhq> Namely, he intended to use coils as a replacement for *the power grid*.
00:24:49 <ehird> yes but tesla was a weirdo :D
00:25:12 <ehird> pikhq: oh that thing where he wanted it to reverberate all the way through the earth to the other side for power?
00:25:14 <ehird> yeah i remember that
00:25:25 <ehird> tesla, while a genius, was also a huge kook :-)
00:25:35 <pikhq> ehird: For the return feed, you mean?
00:25:47 <ehird> i just remember it
00:26:02 <ehird> he wanted to give power to the entire world by shoving electricity through the earth
00:26:06 <pikhq> Uh, guess what. That's commonly done. Many rural areas have single-wire power transmission.
00:26:14 <pikhq> The negative end goes through the earth.
00:26:14 <ehird> pikhq: to the other side of the world, man
00:26:19 <ehird> you wouldn't have a power grid or anything
00:26:22 <ehird> it'd be picked up from the ground
00:26:30 <ehird> from the other. side. of. the. earth.
00:26:47 <ehird> just earth for the power
00:26:53 <ehird> which was the kooky part
00:27:05 <pikhq> His idea of the transmission distances where implausible, but it would work with regional coils.
00:27:49 <ais523> heh, I sort-of get the idea; if you could set up an oscillation in earth potential, then you could average it out with a capacitor or something
00:27:58 <ais523> and get an AC potential between the averaged value and the actual value
00:28:00 <ais523> and power stuff with it
00:28:13 <ais523> wow would that take a lot of energy to set up, though
00:28:19 <ehird> An Idea That Doesn't Actually Work But Would Be Awesome: Put two tesla coils at opposite ends of the earth. Make them buzz together.
00:28:22 <ehird> Earth's core fuck yeah
00:28:30 <ehird> ais523: hey, we have infinite energy amirite?
00:28:36 <ais523> ehird: unfortunately not
00:28:38 <ehird> oops it's the 21st century never mind
00:29:22 <pikhq> A far more practical method of power transmission involves radio waves.
00:29:36 <ehird> i want a dyson sphere
00:29:44 <pikhq> The only limiting factor is that high power is fucking dangerous.
00:29:52 <ehird> pikhq: well that's the thing
00:29:56 <ehird> we COULD just use really fucking powerful microwavse
00:29:58 <ais523> pikhq: microwaves work too
00:30:03 <ehird> hey, the electronics might survive it :)
00:30:12 <ais523> ehird: you /can/ get power from radio waves, though
00:30:15 <pikhq> ais523: Microwaves are high-frequency radio waves.
00:30:20 <ais523> IIRC there's a watch or something which is powered by radio waves in the area
00:30:27 <ais523> pikhq: no, they're both forms of TEM
00:30:38 <ais523> but people don't normally use radio to mean microwave, just like they don't use radio to mean optical frequency light
00:31:03 <ehird> wow, we should figure out how to do audio radio programs with visible light
00:31:15 <ehird> it'd be like adverts showing off mobile internt
00:31:19 <ehird> with the streams of light hitting your phoen
00:31:30 <pikhq> ais523: Note that microwaves are the frequencies between 0.3 GHz and 300 GHz.
00:31:35 <pikhq> And that we deal with 2.4 GHz radios.
00:31:48 <ais523> pikhq: that's due to researchers arguing about where the cutoff should be
00:32:00 <ais523> ehird: visible light disperses too easily
00:32:10 <ais523> although, that might be a viable option underwater, because radio doesn't work there
00:32:18 <ais523> pity that sonar's better there, visible would be so much cooler
00:32:27 <ehird> "we could do radio underwater except we can't do radio udnerwater"
00:32:37 <ais523> ehird: I meant, visible light communication
00:32:43 <ais523> it just gets absorbed too easily, though
00:34:19 <ais523> still, microwaves are /even worse/ underwater, at various frequences
00:34:26 <ais523> they just heat it up and only go a few centimeters
00:34:44 <pikhq> I vote we use gamma rays.
00:34:50 <ehird> I vote we use SPIT.
00:34:57 <ehird> "Oh, I'm volunteering with the BBC"
00:35:14 <ehird> we can just set up huge stations with tons of people spitting different kinds of spit
00:35:14 <ais523> I've heard it argued that people should communicate using neutrinos, after all they go through just about everything
00:35:20 <ais523> the problem is, they're basically impossible to detect
00:35:22 <ehird> and people in the next collecting them in buckets and respitting
00:35:35 <ehird> your radio comes with a big bucket attached to collect the spit and process it
00:35:37 <ais523> due to going through just about everything
00:35:37 <pikhq> How's about tachyons?
00:35:59 <ehird> "3 hours ago, we will be playing the new hit single, ..."
00:36:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:36:20 <pikhq> International Tachyon Causality-Avoidance Network. Intertacanet.
00:36:46 <ehird> Causality Attention Crusaders, Associated.
00:36:53 <ehird> They don't want none.
00:37:04 <ehird> (IT MEANS POO LOL)
00:39:07 <ehird> http://gizmodo.com/5320587/samsung-worlds-thinnest-watchphone-also-happens-to-be-one-of-the-worlds-only-watchphones
00:39:12 <ehird> It has a touchscreen.
00:41:03 <ehird> It's not the thinnest, though.
00:41:12 <GregorR> I'll bet it's ludicrously fucking expensive.
00:41:42 <ehird> The first wave of releases will be scattered throughout Europe, starting in France, where the S9110 will retail for around $650.
00:41:49 * coppro starts wondering why more languages don't allow whitespace in identifiers, then ducks
00:41:50 <ehird> Ehh. The top iPhone 3G S costs more.
00:41:50 <pikhq> Sure. But owning it is justification for practicing a Bond impersonation.
00:42:00 <ehird> coppro: Genera does, IIRC.
00:42:04 <ehird> Since its commands had spaces in.
00:42:04 <GregorR> pikhq: I - have - a - watch - phone.
00:42:09 <ehird> I don't know if the underlying Lisp did.
00:42:20 <ehird> Maybe so; (defun |I Like Big Butts And I Cannot Lie| (foo) ...)
00:42:21 <pikhq> GregorR: That's awesome.
00:42:23 <coppro> I'm not saying there aren't any
00:42:34 <coppro> I'm just saying I'm wondering why more don't
00:42:39 <ehird> #;1> (define (|Hello, world!| x) x)
00:42:39 <ehird> #;2> (|Hello, world!| 2)
00:42:40 <pikhq> GregorR: So, practising a Bond impersonation?
00:42:55 <ehird> coppro: anyway, because whitespace usually separates shit
00:42:56 <ais523> coppro: it's still fun to enumerate the ones that do
00:43:12 <ais523> ooh, sorear thinks INTERCAL allows whitespace anywhere, including inside keywords
00:43:26 <coppro> yes, I believe that's the case
00:43:30 <pikhq> proc {This is an absurdly long proc with a bunch of spaces} {args} {put $args} ;# Perfectly valid.
00:43:40 <ehird> pikhq: yes but tcl sucks :P
00:43:48 <coppro> ehird: quoted identifiers don't count
00:43:56 <ehird> coppro: that's all yer gonna get
00:44:10 <ehird> I wonder if anyone's made a tablet whose pen's tip is actually a tiny ball that rolls around.
00:44:12 <ehird> it could be smoother
00:44:16 <pikhq> coppro: Sorry, by default in Tcl, the space is a token seperator.
00:44:19 <ehird> Also, there's an esolang on the wiki that's 100% agnostic to whitespace
00:44:29 <ehird> Written by a python guy tired of people complaining about it :)
00:44:37 <coppro> I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other
00:44:51 <ehird> coppro: type foo;?
00:44:58 <pikhq> Also, Glass lets you have have space in an identifier.
00:45:00 <ais523> Algol-68 didn't have consecutive identifiers anywhere IIRC
00:45:13 <ais523> possibly user-defined types, I'm not sure about that
00:45:14 <ehird> coppro: typedef butt ass;
00:45:22 <ais523> but it would have been ambiguous because it allowed spaces in identifiers
00:45:22 <pikhq> (multiple-character identifiers are bad style in Glass)
00:45:24 <coppro> ehird: that's technically a declaration
00:45:29 <ais523> also, it had italic and bold
00:45:31 <ehird> 00:44 coppro: I can think of only one case in C, for instance, where you actually follow two identifiers one after the other
00:45:33 <ehird> it's two identifiers
00:45:48 <ais523> ehird: yes, C's grammar is stupid, it treats typedef a b; the same way as static a b;
00:45:51 <ais523> so they're both the same case
00:46:12 <ais523> even though they're semantically completely different, they're gramattically the same
00:46:32 <coppro> Actually, they are semantically similar
00:46:41 <ehird> ais523: but with a typedef or static tag, surely
00:46:45 <coppro> typedef just indicates to declare a type, not an object
00:47:07 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting ← did anyone ever consider whether this is TC?
00:47:15 <ais523> what? I don't recognise that page
00:47:20 <ehird> (t if c else f) means (if c then t else f)
00:47:20 <ais523> or so old I never saw it?
00:47:22 <ehird> ais523: no, 2007 old
00:47:26 <ehird> remember blahbot`?
00:47:37 <ais523> I can't even remember what it did
00:47:53 <ehird> ais523: anyway, to explain the list of commands:
00:48:04 <ehird> CHARACTER tape description -> operation
00:48:20 <ehird> $ takes the top two elements and adds them
00:48:34 <ehird> ! considers the top element
00:48:52 <ehird> if it's 0, then it jumps to the third-from-top element thingy
00:49:01 <ehird> and # does some reshaping; obvious from the example
00:49:01 <ais523> the program's stored on the tape?
00:49:08 <ehird> see, that I don't remember
00:49:12 <ehird> i'll have to think
00:49:18 <ais523> or does it have some sort of mental line numbering?
00:49:29 <ehird> ais523: i'm thinking
00:49:43 <ehird> jumping to -1 is exiting (as well as exciting)
00:49:52 <ehird> we can conclude it's not stored on the tape
00:49:57 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
00:49:58 <ehird> (more a stack really)
00:50:12 <ehird> but yeah it wasn't on the top
00:50:19 <ehird> ais523: i think it was just position
00:50:22 <ehird> it uses bignums, iirc
00:50:33 <ehird> you can only use visible characters, though, i think
00:50:38 <ehird> depends on the modulo/- logic
00:50:42 <ehird> so you'd have to add a bunch up
00:50:54 <ais523> could you use the tape as a queue, somehow?
00:50:59 <ehird> but, it has the ability to keep two bignums on the stack
00:51:12 <ehird> ais523: well, at least
00:51:14 <ehird> i'm trying to reduce it
00:51:25 <ehird> I think the TCness will hinge on # and !
00:51:35 <ehird> i'm not sure ! is enough on its own, but I think # and ! may be
00:51:38 <ehird> with $ to do conditional
00:51:50 <ehird> (adding stuff then jumping to it)
00:52:16 * ehird tries to figure out how # works
00:52:27 <ehird> the secondtopmost value is X
00:52:55 <ehird> it takes the Xmost element
00:52:58 <ehird> and moves it forwards Y places
00:53:13 <ehird> -1 removes it though
00:53:16 <ehird> so i'm not quite sure
00:53:34 <ehird> i shoulda commented better
00:53:39 <ehird> the implementation will be on the other machine
00:55:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:56:16 <ehird> ais523: intuitively do you think it's TC or not?
00:56:31 <ais523> it doesn't look obviously non-TC
00:56:46 <ais523> and pretty much every lang which isn't obviously non-TC turns out to be TC
00:56:51 <ais523> excepting maybe Dupdog and Xigxag
00:56:55 <ehird> you can rearrange arbitrary bignums at will, add and subtract values destructively and non-destructively, and do a 100% malleable jump operation
00:57:12 <ehird> which seems pretty much TC to me
00:57:15 <ais523> that meets all 3 elements of the 'almost certainly TC' checklist
00:57:30 * Sgeo wants to hurt Firefox right now
00:57:30 <ais523> arbitrary access to infinite storage
00:57:35 <ais523> arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
00:57:36 <ehird> on the other hand, i expect programming in it would be excruciatingly difficult
00:57:39 <ais523> and whatever the third one was, too
00:57:42 <ehird> apart from really trivial stuff
00:57:49 <ais523> ehird: couldn't you translate a Minsky machine into it more or less directly?
00:57:54 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, but
00:57:55 <ehird> because of # referring to a position
00:58:03 <Sgeo> Why does Firefox take an eternity to load?
00:58:03 <ehird> if you need an extra char for your loop offset
00:58:06 <ehird> it increases by one
00:58:15 <ais523> that's just a linking step
00:58:15 <Sgeo> And I'm not using Firefox 3.5.0
00:58:16 <ehird> any change of the program length or rearrangement implies many others
00:58:21 <ehird> ais523: i'm talking about manually
00:58:37 <ehird> i'll have to prove it before i can agree
00:58:39 <ehird> but almost certainly
00:58:48 <ais523> people used to link by hand for ages, before assemblers were invented
01:00:00 <ehird> i'm quite proud of the language, it's very generic and orthogonal and the sheer mindbogglingness of organizing a program comes naturally
01:00:20 <ehird> I picked the name wapr before the official one
01:00:24 <ehird> then oklopol (I think) said he thought "Jumping to -1 is exiting." said "exciting" instead
01:00:38 <ehird> so i decided to do an INTERCAL and officially name it something completely different
01:01:34 <Sgeo> Is the wiki not working?
01:01:43 <ehird> it was but works now
01:04:38 <ehird> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Support-Should-Never-Be-Necessary.aspx
01:05:31 <ehird> -------------------------------------------------
01:05:32 <ehird> -------------------------------------------------
01:05:36 <ehird> "your getting than you used to be"
01:05:38 <ehird> (That's the entirety of the message from the client.)
01:05:42 <ehird> While it is unclear whether or not this is actually a complaint, what is
01:05:44 <ehird> clear is that the technician's "getting" is in some way different than the
01:05:46 <ehird> technician himself was at some point in the past.
01:05:50 <ehird> Each technician should take better care of his "getting", to ensure that
01:05:52 <ehird> it stops differing from how the technician used to be. That way, the
01:05:54 <ehird> technician will potentially be praised by the client with the commendation
01:05:56 <ehird> that, "your getting is now exactly the same as you are now". And those are
01:05:58 <ehird> the type of praises that result in raises.
01:09:35 <ehird> "When I use default iPod software[…]Why can't I edit filenames"
01:09:44 <ehird> This just in: people REALLY CARE about the internal filesystem of their MP3 players.
01:13:31 <coppro> long pase o channel :(
01:13:42 <ais523> ehird: doesn't actually surprise me
01:13:42 <coppro> *long paste to channel :(
01:13:45 <ehird> Long paste of channel.
01:13:46 <ais523> coppro: what's happened to your 't' key?
01:13:56 <ehird> ais523: which part?
01:14:00 <coppro> something got stuck under it
01:14:10 <ais523> ehird: people upset that they couldn't edit filenames on the iPod
01:14:31 <ehird> KDE is moving to Git.
01:15:10 <ehird> ais523: i believe the ipod uses filenames like ff34-fea5f-f845f-37fy745.mp3 anyway
01:15:21 <ehird> it might use 03 Track Name.mp3 but in GUID directories
01:15:23 <ehird> yeah, I think it's that
01:15:25 -!- X-Scale has joined.
01:15:33 <ehird> {35f45-f8234-f835j-fah45-c7wh4}/foo.mp3
01:15:58 -!- X-Scale has left (?).
01:17:06 <ehird> ais523: I found the best page on the esolang wiki
01:17:11 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic
01:17:12 <ehird> [[There's no explanation as to why anyone would want to use this -T]]
01:17:19 <ehird> never has our philosophy been summed up more concisely
01:18:17 <ais523> or are you just random-page-surfing?
01:18:38 <ais523> you should reply, then
01:19:09 <ehird> but that'd destroy its beauty & simplicity
01:19:26 <ehird> it's an oasis of perfect, nay ideal, incomprehension at the wiki, that reflects the exact purpose of it!
01:21:38 <ehird> i wonder if you can get therapy for inability to use killfiles
01:21:46 <ehird> whenever i do anything of the sort, i always manually click to view every single message
01:21:49 <ehird> i just can't not :|
01:21:54 <ehird> it's irritating because i get more stupid in my bran
01:22:01 <ehird> although i guess you could put stupid in bran flakes
01:24:46 <Pthing> maybe you can get a pension for using "killfiles" old grampa USENET
01:25:06 * ehird is the oldest 13 year old ever
01:25:30 <ehird> (actually being the oldest N year old would be rather trivial; make sure nobody was born at the exact same time as you and voila, a split second before your birthday)
01:27:47 <pikhq> Also trivial is having been the youngest person alive.
01:28:56 * coppro would find it hard to believe that ehrid is 13... but...
01:29:44 <pikhq> I don't; I remember me at 13.
01:30:19 <ehird> coppro: ehrid is an ex-partnership; Quazie seemed to refer to em a lot.
01:30:22 <ehird> perhaps you mean ehird?
01:30:30 <ehird> also, consider me vaguely offended or somesuch.
01:30:44 <coppro> pikhq: yes, that's precisely the same thought I have
01:30:56 <ehird> it wasn't calling me immature (well ok it could be that too)
01:30:59 <ehird> vaguely unoffended!
01:31:13 <ehird> let's go with vaguely neutral.
01:31:20 <coppro> then we need to destroy you
01:31:29 <coppro> we all know the problem with neutrals
01:32:36 <coppro> granted, I didn't spend quite as much of my time with programming theory
01:33:03 <ehird> i blame having a computer at 3 and the interwebs at 5
01:33:12 <ehird> (well, more thank than blame)
01:33:33 <coppro> for the most part, that describes my life too
01:33:49 <ehird> yeah, but the internet was well-formed when i got on
01:34:25 * coppro really needs to pick up a book on formal language theory
01:35:14 <pikhq> Freaking gigantic.
01:35:50 <coppro> books >>> everything else
01:42:51 <pikhq> Well, that's a decent idea (though I think that this channel would do a nice job of teaching that)
01:43:08 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with at least the basics of formal language theory, after all.
01:44:04 <coppro> But I like reading books
01:44:45 <coppro> (and, as you may have noticed me mention, I discovered my public library card gives me limited access to the local university library)
01:47:25 <coppro> [18:44:03]But I like reading books <-- does not apply to PDFs, unless I waste a ton of money printing them
01:47:30 <coppro> and getting them bound
01:48:38 <ehird> get an ebook reader foo
01:52:52 <ehird> pikhq: http://stephenmann.net/2009/07/17/cool-haskell-function/
01:53:38 <ehird> :t pair . (map f *** id) . unpair
02:22:07 <Sgeo> Is InstantDjango a decent way of playing with Django?
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04:28:39 <coppro> straw poll: a language spec says that a side-effect of a function is to increase (not increment) a variable. Does this mean the increase has to be by one, or can it be arbitrary?
04:29:36 <pikhq> I believe that setting a variable to infinity is a valid interpretation.
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05:12:54 -!- immibis has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON -- The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
05:12:58 <immibis> for those of us without utf-8
05:16:31 <pikhq> immibis: The lack of UTF-8 is a crime.
05:56:53 <immibis> anyone explain what that says?
05:58:20 <pikhq> Y̅o̅u̅ ̅s̅u̅c̅k̅,̅ ̅I̅ ̅b̅e̅l̅i̅e̅v̅e̅…̅
06:02:06 <immibis> it appears to me as "You suck, I believe", except with `I... between characters (`I represents I with ` above it)
06:03:54 <pikhq> Enter the 90s, man!
06:04:08 <immibis> well this client works for everything else
06:04:20 <immibis> apart from having randomly placed blue gradients
06:04:26 <pikhq> The lack of Unicode is a fundamental flaw.
06:04:40 <immibis> oh and being written in vb, but i don't need to know that to use it
06:05:09 <pikhq> You really need to enter the 21st century.
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06:07:57 <pikhq> For, þou ſeeſt, Unicode be all powerful, and þy client is not. Doeſt þou comprehend?
06:15:28 <immibis> For, thou eet, Unicode will be all powerful and thy client is not. Doet thou comprehend? <-- ?
06:15:47 <immibis> copy-pasting the text into google tells me that it means
06:16:44 <pikhq> Also, how did þorn turn into th?
06:17:06 <immibis> i guessed, it fits the words and the sentence
06:17:11 <immibis> For, thou seest, Unicode will be all powerful, and thy client is not. Doest thou comprehend? <-- makes sense
06:17:32 <pikhq> And why art þou adding "will" to yonder ſentence?
06:17:43 <pikhq> Keep in mind that this is a channel where long s and diaresis are in common use. You need some Unicode.
06:18:03 <pikhq> Especially if we get to a discussion of, say, reëntrant code or some such.
06:21:24 <immibis> i can tell that re(a~)(<<)ntrant code means reentrant code
06:21:49 <pikhq> WHY DO YOU ACCEPT MOJIBAKE‽
06:22:37 <pikhq> Enter the 21st century. ASCII is dead.
06:22:47 <pikhq> (really: not even Windows is using it any more)
06:30:04 <Warrigal> Hey, I forgot that I was capitalizing all my Nouns today.
06:30:17 <Warrigal> And I'm assuming that "today" is a Pronoun or an Adverb or something. :-P
06:30:42 <Warrigal> Hey, Wiktionary says it is an Adverb.
06:31:43 <Warrigal> I suddenly feel like I shouldn't be using the Word "hey" so much.
06:33:22 <immibis> Why Are You Capitalizing All Your nouns Today?
06:33:34 <Warrigal> Because that's what People used to do.
06:33:41 <Warrigal> People who speak German still do it.
06:34:11 <Warrigal> It makes what I write kind of resemble something written long ago.
06:34:56 <Warrigal> Capitalizing other Stuff just makes you contrary. :-P
06:34:58 <pikhq> You can ſee this in the Constitution, where the founding Fathers uſed it in their Writing.
06:35:54 <pikhq> And yes, they alſo uſed long S.
06:36:11 <Warrigal> Of course, you can always do this elsewise, and simply not use those things at all.
06:36:17 <pikhq> Shame that I am finding it difficult to uſe Nouns. :P
06:36:30 <Warrigal> Look, nothing in what I'm writing now is either common or proper.
06:36:41 <Warrigal> It's sometimes easier to not use them than to use them.
06:36:59 <Warrigal> Those who speak more concretely probably find them more useful than those who speak more abstractly.
06:38:29 <Warrigal> I guess it is kind of difficult to talk about them without using them, seeing as how one can't well define them without using them.
06:41:10 <Warrigal> Clearly, we ʃould always capitalize all our Nouns and also use Greek Letters instead of digraφs.
06:41:37 <Warrigal> You know, ſ and ʃ are not necessarily very easy to distinguiʃ between.
06:42:10 <Warrigal> Ʃall I set þe Topic to say "HOLY ƩIT"?
06:44:22 <Warrigal> No, Digraφs. It is very important to preserve etymological Stuff.
06:44:55 <Warrigal> Like þe Distinction between c and k.
06:45:26 <Warrigal> Þough I am planning to mess some of þat up by using Diacritics.
06:46:50 <Warrigal> Þə qwick brown Fox jumps ōvər þə lāzē Dôg.
06:48:02 * coppro considers /ignore Warrigal
06:48:37 * pikhq considers /ignore ASCII heathens
06:49:02 <Warrigal> Now, þat Sentənç sēmd wrông. Evrē Vowəl wəs ə Sĉwo.
06:49:49 <Warrigal> I really should find a dialect in which short u and schwa are more clearly distinguished.
06:50:07 <coppro> pikhq: nothing against Unicode. Something against trying your best to use foreign letters and diacritics to speak
06:51:44 <pikhq> coppro: My uſage of ſ, þ, and ̈ is not exactly foreign.
06:51:56 <pikhq> 'Tis merely archaic.
06:52:04 <coppro> Warrigal, on the other hand...
06:52:20 <pikhq> He's merely fiddling with ſpelling reform.
06:52:50 <coppro> btw, Warrigal, you forgot å and ø
06:53:12 <Warrigal> No, I just didn't have use for them. :-P
06:53:50 <Warrigal> pikhq: am I doing anything in particular wrong?
06:54:57 <pikhq> Warrigal: You have 26 letters to work with. Go!
06:55:13 <coppro> There is nå wøy to stop their use!
06:55:52 <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav tə stop mī Dīgraph rəplāçmənt. :-P
06:56:13 <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt. :-P
06:56:33 <immibis> If anyone has a list showing conversions from Unicode characters to the closest ASCII character that would be useful for my script
06:57:45 <pikhq> Delete your client.
06:57:52 <pikhq> It is a pox on the Internet.
06:57:58 <pikhq> It's like using IE4.
06:58:22 <pikhq> Fucking netcat would be an improvement.
06:58:23 <immibis> Must be free, run on windows and support scripting (any language)
06:59:39 <pikhq> But, yeah; Emacs has an IRC client.
07:00:29 <pikhq> I'm just naming clients off the top of my head, BTW.
07:00:49 <Warrigal> That seems to be free and run on windows and support scripting and have a GUI.
07:01:09 <Warrigal> Though the platform isn't Windows but Mozilla or something.
07:03:47 <pikhq> The platform is XUL.
07:35:24 <immibis> can someone repeat one of the earlier lines including utf-8 characters so i can test this script
07:36:20 <fizzie> immibis: <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt
07:39:21 <immibis> [18:36] <fizzie> immibis: <Warrigal> Sō Ī'll hav t stop mī Dīgraph rplāçmnt
07:39:21 <immibis> [18:36] immibis: <Warrigal> SO i'll hav t stop mI DIgraph rplAmnt
07:40:05 <Warrigal> Just removing the diacritics would result in "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt".
07:40:37 <fizzie> iconv -f utf8 -t ascii//translit: "So I'll hav t stop mi Digraph rplacmnt". That's pretty much what it does there.
07:41:29 <Warrigal> fizzie: what does that do to φ and ə?
07:41:38 <immibis> Why does [18:41] fizzie: what does that do to ? and ??
07:41:54 <immibis> as i said, i only implemented latin extended-a and latin extended-b
07:42:36 <fizzie> It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (Α) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?.
07:42:59 <immibis> this is windows - i don't have any command line tools such as iconv
07:43:01 <immibis> [18:42] It's a bit silly; it does ? even for Greek uppercase alpha (?) even though they could really use A there. I guess they've just decided that the whole Greek block is ?.
07:43:41 <Warrigal> Tell them ə should be @ for me. :-P
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08:46:18 <Deewiant> http://comonad.com/haskell/remorse-1.0/remorse.hs
08:47:09 * coppro wonders if it is possible to express an indentation grammar in EBNF
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08:51:14 <coppro> of course, if you have your lexer create indentation tokens, then you can
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09:05:38 <Deewiant> immibis: ( edwardk) that was written by malcolm wallace and won the 0th annual IOHCC competition
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11:42:06 -!- ehird has set topic: HOLY SHIT: MAN WALKS ON FUCKING MOON — The Onion, Monday, July 21, 1969 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
11:43:13 <ehird> 05:58 pikhq: Xchat.
11:43:13 <ehird> 05:59 immibis: Not free on Windows.
11:43:14 <ehird> immibis: Silverex, stupid
11:44:26 -!- AnMaster has joined.
11:56:48 * ehird has a mouse that works better if you blow the top of it
12:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: it makes it conduct electricity better; it's a mighty-mouse, so that's important for the circuit underneath to recognize which side my finger is on
12:00:57 <ehird> thus, blowing on to the top of the mouth temporarily makes right clicks more reliable (my mighty mouse has taken a lot of beating so it kinda sucks)
12:01:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just once in a while or very often?
12:01:32 <ehird> it wears off in like less than a minute
12:01:40 <AnMaster> btw, I guess there is no warranty? Products usually start having problems after the warranty only...
12:01:52 <ehird> oh there's a warranty, from december 2006 :P
12:02:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that ended by now then?
12:02:12 <ehird> it ended a year after it begun.
12:02:20 <ehird> got a keyboard replaced with it tho
12:02:27 <ehird> they gave me a different layout tho :D
12:02:36 <ehird> (US instead of UK, but that's fine)
12:02:55 <ehird> also keycaps were italics instead of straight, and uppercase instead of — iirc — lowercase, and the graphic on the option key changed. iirc.
12:08:15 <AnMaster> The university I'm starting at this autumn seems to have some issues with their website:
12:08:29 <AnMaster> * Self signed certs for creating account with mismatching domain name
12:08:41 <AnMaster> I can only hope they will fix it soon.
12:08:57 <ehird> people don't watch those things
12:09:00 <ehird> every uni website has 404s
12:09:08 <ehird> and certificates are very often fucked up
12:09:17 <AnMaster> ehird, for the instruction for connecting to WLAN? https://shib1.oru.se/account/startnet/Wlan_windowsXP.pdf
12:09:28 <AnMaster> not sure if the cert works on that page...
12:09:41 <ehird> https://shib1.oru.se/account/index.jsp
12:09:43 <ehird> maybe you have to sign in.
12:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: safari recognizes it as no-cert
12:09:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ah no, can't do that, there is another 404 that prevents me creating an account...
12:10:10 <ehird> it doesn't present it as a secure site
12:10:15 <ehird> no indication of a certificate etc
12:10:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. But it is https, and that means there is a cert. Except a broken one.
12:10:41 <ehird> prolly works in IE
12:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well my laptop will be delivered on Monday or so. It will have "Vista Bullshit Edition" err I meant "Business"
12:11:55 <ehird> AnMaster: heh, unlucky you; in a few months everything'll be 7
12:12:05 <ehird> although i think manufacturers are offering free upgrades to 7 for people who get suckered or sth
12:12:09 <AnMaster> ehird, so? I won't run vista much
12:12:20 <ehird> i don't think you realise quite how horrific vista is to use
12:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I never used anything newer than xp
12:12:44 <AnMaster> anyway, I'm going to install xp under virtualbox I guess.
12:13:17 <AnMaster> oh btw about xp... I wonder what will happen to those "activation" key thingies in the future. Will it be possible to activate XP in 25 years for example?
12:14:04 <AnMaster> ehird, how bad/good is 7? I haven't followed the discussion
12:14:23 <ehird> like, better than XP.
12:15:04 <AnMaster> anyway. I wonder which distro I shall use...
12:15:11 <ehird> vista internal reworkings + dropping some backwards compatibility (anything that worked on vista still works, so... just about anything; this may have been by mistake, but) + making the UI nicer + lots and lots of speed improvements
12:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, dropping backwards compat? So XP stuff might break?
12:15:56 <ehird> XP stuff that doesn't run on Vista.
12:15:58 <AnMaster> can you run office XP on vista btw? Just wondering.
12:16:02 <ehird> i.e., nothing + epsilon.
12:16:14 <ehird> AnMaster: there's no such thing as office xp
12:16:28 <AnMaster> I thought it was some software called that first
12:16:48 <ehird> oh wait, office xp does exist
12:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I have the box somewhere even I think
12:17:18 <ehird> i'm not sure why you'd want to run office, but
12:17:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't... But I don't know what I will need for uni. And openoffice is quite painful
12:18:11 <ehird> AnMaster: re arch — bwahaha! "For this course we will be using Python. Please install Python now." "# emerge python" (5 minutes pass) "Okay, now start up Python. If you're using Windows, you can…" "Compiling dependency5467 (24%)… (25%)…" (tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock) "Okay, and that about wraps it up for today!" "Compiling… 100%" "# "
12:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I will have to check what formats they accept. But if possible I will probably use latex
12:18:19 <ehird> (i.e. arch as opposed to gentoo)
12:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster: render latex to pdf, dood
12:18:27 <ehird> like everyone else :P
12:18:40 <AnMaster> since emerge is a python script
12:18:48 <ehird> sheesh i spent all that time writing that joke and you have to go trample on it :D
12:18:53 <AnMaster> but that specific example didn't work very well :P
12:18:54 <ehird> well ok i wrote it in a few seconds
12:18:56 <ehird> mostly transcription
12:19:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also you clearly never used emerge... :P
12:19:27 <AnMaster> since that output was unrealistic :D
12:19:36 <AnMaster> anyway I'm going for arch probably yes
12:19:43 <ehird> thankfully i never have
12:20:31 <AnMaster> debian probably have more packages
12:20:39 <AnMaster> I'm so not going to use debian
12:21:07 <AnMaster> and yes I'm referring to things like the ssh key fuckup for example.
12:21:15 <ehird> yes, that was a huge fuckup
12:21:22 <ehird> it's also the only one in debian's whole history
12:21:32 <ehird> of 14 years at the time
12:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also I read on thinkwiki about issues with debian patched kernels and thinkpad ultrabays
12:21:49 <AnMaster> because they patch it to use the old driver
12:21:51 <ehird> if debian were me, i'd have never made a mistake or been angry now :P
12:22:05 <ehird> AnMaster: how old's that page?
12:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well I checked the bug report. it was still marked as "open" for 2.6.27 kernel
12:22:51 <AnMaster> but I don't have the page open atm
12:24:03 <AnMaster> anyway. arch have a policy of not patching unless it is a patch from upstream or very very urgent and important. So it tends to follow upstream pretty closely
12:24:29 <AnMaster> I'm definitely going for a vanilla kernel anyway
12:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the differences between 64-bit on Intel and AMD? IIRC there is something like one or two instructions that differ. Like Intel not having one and AMD not having another?
12:26:22 <AnMaster> (this excludes all SSE* and such)
12:26:28 <ehird> no, i don't think that's true.
12:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it was only early Intel ones that were affected
12:27:19 <ehird> AnMaster: amd laptops are basically a bad idea, though; the power consumption and heat output is just too much
12:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird, my sempron doesn't run hot however :P
12:27:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's because it has a big heatsink on top of it
12:27:54 <ehird> that, even without a fan, is thicker than a laptop.
12:29:19 <AnMaster> ah yes the LAHF and SAHF instructions
12:29:30 <AnMaster> but Intel added it in December 2005
12:30:24 <AnMaster> LAHF: Load Status Flags into AH Register
12:30:45 <AnMaster> I have no idea why this is useful
12:30:55 <ehird> core 2 (based on Core architecture) was released in 2006 and that was, iirc, their first consumer-level 64-bit chip
12:31:10 <ehird> i think pentium 4-based Xeons got it first or something like months before but nobody used them.
12:31:15 <AnMaster> Loads the SF, ZF, AF, PF, and CF flags of the EFLAGS register with values from the corresponding
12:31:15 <AnMaster> bits in the AH register (bits 7, 6, 4, 2, and 0, respectively). The instruction ignores bits 1, 3, and 5 of
12:31:15 <AnMaster> register AH; it sets those bits in the EFLAGS register to 1, 0, and 0, respectively.
12:31:19 <ehird> so not gonna be a problem
12:32:49 <AnMaster> oh I think it means you can set/read several status flags in one go
12:33:29 * ehird reads how about korean politics revolve around physically fighting the other party to stop laws being passed: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/93pt7/korean_parliament_erupts_in_allout_brawl_over/c0bbip6
12:33:39 <ehird> fuck democracy, this is clearly better
12:33:59 <ehird> http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2009/07/22/GYH2009072200100004400_P2.jpg ← i can't believe the news would actually make this :D
12:34:17 <ehird> "here's a quick summary of today's parliamental fight!"
12:34:52 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the red explosion like thingies?
12:35:16 <ehird> i hope red explosions, but probably people hitting each other.
12:35:44 <ehird> tactical grenades!
12:35:51 <AnMaster> one of the comments: "Basically, this is just a Korean version of filibuster, nothing more." <-- heh
12:36:04 <AnMaster> yeah filibusters are pretty undemocratic too
12:36:23 <ehird> filibusters are perfectly democratic
12:36:26 <ehird> it's just a different type of vote
12:37:05 <AnMaster> "And after each brawl, some media outlets will show the battle maps and each parties' strategic notes and explain where the turning point in the battle was." <-- crazy...
12:37:15 <AnMaster> it's like they considered it pretty normal and sane...
12:37:37 <ehird> presumably they have been doing it for many decades
12:37:41 <ehird> or at least some years
12:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, sure this isn't a hoax?
12:38:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the video of the brawl is from the Guardian
12:38:33 <ehird> and the pamphlet seems real
12:38:38 <ehird> and his story is consistent
12:38:43 <ehird> and he's commenting a lot about it in reply
12:38:49 <ehird> prolly true. ask lifthrasiir.
12:40:51 <AnMaster> is it only US that has filibustering?
12:40:53 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway there are worse things than filibusters; e.g. http://www.wellstone.org/about-us/pass-wellstone-bill — which was part of… the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. The bailout. "Pass this fluffy bill! It's awesome! Please don't look at what's stapled to it."
12:41:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the article has sections for ancient rome, UK, US, Canada and France
12:42:35 <ehird> also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae
12:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't figure out what the bill is really about from that link... "treat mental illness the same as physical illness" is pretty vague... In what respect would they be the same?
12:43:15 <ehird> you can't vote against such a fluffy, feel-good bill
12:43:21 <ehird> or everyone hates you for being evil
12:43:23 <ehird> so you have to vote for the bailout.
12:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what was bundled with it, did you say?
12:43:35 <ehird> AnMaster: it was bundled in the bailout.
12:43:59 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems very odd. Since they are unrelated
12:44:07 <AnMaster> is it really legal to do that?
12:44:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it's very simple
12:44:17 <ehird> if you vote against this act, you hate mentally ill people and are evil and kill puppies, obviously
12:44:25 <ehird> you have to vote for the bailout
12:44:35 <ehird> …thus ensuring that the bailout passes.
12:44:47 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's legal, [[12:42 ehird: also, far too often the real laws and changes are buried in sub-paragraph in a sub-list of a section about a totally irrelevant piece of minutiae]] is also legal and it's how all the legislation is done
12:44:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I mean... is it *legal* to bundle two unrelated issues into one voting session (or whatever it is called)
12:44:58 <ehird> their constitution forbids it
12:45:00 <ehird> and I dunno non-US places
12:45:07 <ehird> but in the US, everything goes through that
12:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure I haven't heard about this happening in Sweden. That doesn't mean it didn't happen though...
12:46:12 <ehird> dammit zzo38 soiled the beautiful incomprehension of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:5-logic
12:49:12 <ehird> everything zzo says is zzo
12:53:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: You can use fstsw+sahf to dump the x87 FPU status flags to the (low-order bytes of) EFLAGS registers, and then use the normal conditional jumps and such for logic, instead of manually examining different bits.
12:54:00 <fizzie> I guess for actual eflags-saving/restoring pushf/popf are more used.
12:55:37 <fizzie> As for other uses, the interwebs seem to suggest they're mostly a 8080 pseudo-compatibility relic.
12:55:55 <ehird> 8080 compatibility, 64-bit edition :D
12:56:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, they were *added* on x86_64...
12:56:56 <fizzie> Lahf/sahf most definitely weren't. Well, according to the pages I've seen on the topic, anyway. Hell, they're in the "Original 8086/8088 instructions" list of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings
12:57:32 <AnMaster> "The SAHF instruction can only be executed in 64-bit mode if supported by the processor
12:57:32 <AnMaster> implementation. Check the status of ECX bit 0 returned by CPUID function 8000_0001h to verify that
12:57:32 <AnMaster> the processor supports SAHF in 64-bit mode.
12:57:50 <AnMaster> maybe available only in 32 bit mode before?
12:57:55 <fizzie> I think what was added was LAHF/SAHF support in 64-bit mode, yes. Maybe.
12:59:35 <AnMaster> I was wonderign why loading web pages was so slow suddenly and then realised I had just started downloading archlinux iso by bittorrent...
13:05:35 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/8zv9i/god_is_imaginary_50_simple_proofs/c0ayww3
13:05:36 <ehird> "Athiests and followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die."
13:05:41 <ehird> "followers of man made religions will get the biggest shock of their lives when they die."
13:05:51 <ehird> I guess his was gifted to him by a zombie :-P
13:08:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
13:08:36 -!- puzzlet has joined.
13:12:57 <ehird> 14 Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth."
13:12:58 <ehird> 15 "Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement."
13:13:20 <ehird> You're a really swell guy, yaknow.
13:35:28 -!- oklopol has joined.
13:35:56 <oklopol> i gave it crowd another try, and that supernerd is actually pretty funny.
13:36:33 <oklopol> "you just won employee of the month" "i don't belive it!" "please believe it"
13:36:35 <ehird> oh snap → osnap → oklopol
13:36:49 <ehird> for advancement of the human race↗
13:37:02 <oklopol> i'm assuming you can supply the context that makes that funny yourself
13:37:05 <ehird> and for upper-right-pointing arrows↗
13:37:15 <oklopol> wait, are you people talking
13:37:24 <AnMaster> ↗ <--- why is this half as tall as lower case e one of the times but next time equally tall?
13:37:35 <ehird> i'm not committing suicide oklopol
13:37:38 <ehird> i don't care if you want me to hang myself
13:37:49 <ehird> AnMaster: um it's just an arrow pointing up ^ and right >
13:38:05 <oklopol> ehird: it seems you have some serious context supplying skill.
13:38:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. just rendering issue then...
13:38:16 <ehird> AnMaster: A↗ the arrow should be a little taller
13:38:22 <ehird> oklopol: do i do i do i do
13:38:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the arrow there is about as high as "e" and about the same placement
13:38:47 <ehird> AnMaster: use a proportional font :P
13:39:30 <ehird> nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :(
13:39:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the unbenefits outweigh(sp?) the benefits
13:39:42 <AnMaster> (and yeah I forgot the right word for "unbenefit")
13:39:50 <oklopol> ehird: anyway, while you're correct in that it has a very bad return, it's still one of the most probable ways to get a million without working
13:40:01 <ehird> oklopol: wwwwwwhat?
13:40:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> nescience: plz put myndzi back, we need \o/ completion :( <-- only if it isn't broken this time....
13:40:10 <ehird> AnMaster: NO i like broken
13:40:27 <ehird> oklopol: you kinda didn't say lottery
13:40:29 <ehird> oklopol: or anything
13:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what is the right word.
13:40:33 <ehird> AnMaster: unbenefits
13:40:45 <ehird> nah i'm kidding :)
13:40:46 <oklopol> that was in my buffer of paused conversations
13:40:56 <oklopol> and because of the context thing
13:40:56 <AnMaster> disadvantage vs. advantage but for benefit?
13:41:00 <oklopol> i thought i'd just say it.
13:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds like a joke too
13:41:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not...
13:41:18 <ehird> oklopol: i think there are more probable ways
13:41:33 <ehird> like, trying every single "free" ipod thing and selling them on ebay
13:41:53 <ehird> oklopol: it's a very trivial kind of work
13:41:56 <ehird> most of it can be scripted
13:41:58 <oklopol> lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me"
13:42:02 <ehird> the whole ebay part can be scripted
13:42:10 <ehird> it's just clicking a few things for the referring shit
13:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you are right, but it is so disusual that the first three hits on google are dictionaries and similar.
13:42:27 <ehird> AnMaster: wait am I right? I was bullshitting
13:42:42 <ehird> oklopol: anyway it'll probably be way better than the lottery and you can just do it while you're bored
13:42:44 <ehird> nothing has 0 work
13:43:05 <ehird> oklopol: mebbe try one of those "click ads for money" thing actually, that's easier and appears to give money, if only minor amounts
13:43:15 <ehird> i mean if you can hit the counter all day you can click all day :D
13:43:39 <oklopol> i'm talking about getting a million.
13:43:44 <ehird> oklopol: yes, and?
13:43:51 <ehird> with the ads you're certain to get a million if you just keep clicking
13:43:57 <ehird> with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely
13:44:07 <ehird> and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all
13:44:08 <oklopol> you have a distorted opinion of little work
13:44:14 <AnMaster> ehird, seems to be used mostly in jargon...[1] [1] Quick glance at first page of results from googling the word.
13:44:21 <oklopol> for me, opening the browser is a bit too much work.
13:44:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> with a lottery, the odds are astronomically unlikely <ehird> and just clicking a lot isn't much work at all <-- intentional joke on "lot"?
13:44:56 <ehird> i wish those ad clickers didn't have "no bots" in their TOS
13:45:00 <ehird> it'd be so much more profitable
13:45:19 <oklopol> well, even though i might be just as insane as you, only in the other direction, i'm pretty sure no one considers getting a million by clicking on ads "little work".
13:45:41 <ehird> oklopol: well yeah it isn't, but the amount of numbers you'd have to pick on the lottery is far more work considering the odds
13:45:46 <ehird> than mindlessly clicking a whole bunch
13:45:50 <ehird> (less than the lottery)
13:46:09 <oklopol> i can just ask python for the numbers
13:46:13 <ehird> 13:41 oklopol: lottery = call my dad and say "can you put a few rows for me"
13:46:19 <ehird> which doesn't actually make it less work
13:46:22 <ehird> you could get someone else to click for you too
13:46:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what about writing an extremely popular book instead?
13:46:26 <ehird> but that's not the point
13:46:33 <ehird> AnMaster: probably more likely than the lottery
13:46:36 <oklopol> anyway, i'm fairly sure it's at least a year of work, pretty much non stop, to get a million from clicking ads
13:46:39 <AnMaster> unless I ununderstood the topic.
13:46:41 <ehird> also books don't pay thaaaaaaat well
13:46:53 <AnMaster> ehird, coiunterexample: J. K. Rowling?
13:47:07 <ehird> AnMaster: countercounterexample: 99% of all authors ever
13:47:21 <ehird> oklopol: same for lottery tickets, except replace clicking with picking numbers or pressing enter to get more numbers
13:47:30 <ehird> and also prolly far more of that, due to the odds
13:47:36 <oklopol> ehird: you have to pick the numbers once
13:47:44 <ehird> oklopol: what, and reuse them all the time?
13:47:48 <oklopol> making the account takes at most 5 minutes
13:47:49 <ehird> you still have to click on the site
13:47:59 <oklopol> you have to do that *once*
13:48:02 <ehird> at least the same work, almost certainly more due to odds
13:48:14 <AnMaster> wouldn't that be more expensive than winning?
13:48:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: basically ehird is saying it.
13:48:31 <AnMaster> well, depends on what the tickets are for
13:48:48 <oklopol> it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery
13:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, thought you meant add-clicking
13:48:57 <ehird> a lottery ticket in this country nets you £-1
13:49:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, wow... they must have some seriously complicated question on the sign up form!
13:49:11 <ehird> (there are other cases but they're so statistically improbable to be irrelevant)
13:49:24 <ehird> oklopol: lol freudian slip
13:49:36 <ehird> AnMaster: "Is the Riemann hypothesis true? Provide a proof written in Coq."
13:49:44 <ehird> oklopol: 13:48 oklopol: it's easier to click a million's worth of ads than making an account for the lottery
13:49:58 <ehird> Slereah: you're the 5 billionth person to make that joke.
13:50:02 <oklopol> ehird: i was continuing the sentence
13:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah or: "location of key you lost 15 years ago"
13:50:11 <oklopol> but i now realize the sentence made sense as it was :D
13:50:17 <oklopol> especially as i always put the period first.
13:50:24 <Slereah> I just wanted to belong :(
13:50:44 <AnMaster> augh that was a horrible joke Slereah
13:50:59 <oklopol> ehird: but seriously, how much do ads pay, i mean is it even physically possible to get a million?
13:51:14 <ehird> oklopol: well they're pyramid schemes ofc but
13:51:28 <oklopol> i have no idea how the ad-clicking stuff works
13:51:39 <ehird> oklopol: from bux.to: "10 ad clicks a day = $0.10; 20 referrals click 10 ads a day = $2.00; blah blah earnings; monthly earnings = $63"
13:51:43 <ehird> ofc the hard part is 20 referral
13:51:46 <ehird> spam irc channels or sth :P
13:52:03 <ehird> so with that baseline, it'd take 1,322.75 years
13:52:12 <oklopol> how much can you get a day, from one source?
13:52:23 <ehird> infinite i'm pretty sure
13:52:28 <oklopol> well naturally it has to be in the next 10 years or so
13:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: we're just doing hypotheticals
13:52:36 <ehird> let's say we click 1000 ads a day instead
13:52:42 <ehird> and 50 referrals click 20
13:52:46 <ehird> you know, being optimistic
13:52:51 <ehird> 50 clicking 20 isn't too optimistic
13:52:57 <ehird> but it's moreso than the 1000 a day
13:53:13 <ehird> so that's $100 a day just by our 1000 clicks
13:53:16 <oklopol> 1000 a day is already more work than making the lottery account
13:53:28 <oklopol> just to make sure you still know you're making no sense
13:53:29 <ehird> $100 by our 50 clicking 20
13:53:56 <oklopol> 6000 a month will never get you to a million
13:54:05 <ehird> oklopol: yes it will, in 13 years
13:54:25 <ehird> but hey how much is your lottery getting you
13:54:47 <oklopol> anyway, a thousand clicks a day for 13 years?
13:54:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about probability of winning instead of just making that account
13:54:53 <oklopol> how is that not much work :D
13:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: well ok if we want to do it in 10 years
13:55:07 <ehird> we need $8,333/year
13:55:13 <oklopol> AnMaster: we're talking about easy ways to get a million, not sure ways to get it
13:55:18 <ehird> it'll be much less... worky to refer rather than click
13:55:22 <ehird> since your referral clicks without you
13:55:28 <ehird> and you can like spam google wit hblogs
13:55:30 <oklopol> i'm just saying if you don't want to work your ass off, lottery is one of the most probably ways to get rich
13:55:33 <ehird> (I'm not taking ethics into account here)
13:55:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm ok. Is there anything more than that account? Like clicking "buy a ticket"?
13:55:52 <oklopol> AnMaster: make the account, put money on it
13:57:12 <oklopol> i just really don't see how spamming stuff on blogs every day and clicking on ads every day is more work than setting up an account once, and putting money on it a few times a year
13:57:15 <ehird> oklopol: we click 280 times a day, and have 250 referrers click 10 times each
13:57:27 <oklopol> i guess you have to check whether you won every week
13:57:28 <ehird> = 1mil in 10 years
13:57:34 <oklopol> but the rules let us only do that once as well
13:57:35 <ehird> oklopol: i'm not going for easy in this case
13:57:37 <ehird> you said is it even possible
13:57:38 <oklopol> because it's not about the probability
13:57:47 <ehird> and i'm saying yes
13:57:57 <ehird> oklopol: Availability Limited! Packages with 15, 35, 100 and 500 referrals are available now.
13:58:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, spamming on blogs is evil.
13:58:11 <oklopol> not going for easy? then why not get a job
13:58:15 <ehird> 500 referrals clicking 10 = $50
13:58:20 <ehird> my maths is broken methinks
13:58:22 <oklopol> anyone can get a million by working
13:58:25 <ehird> AnMaster: 13:55 ehird: (I'm not taking ethics into account here)
13:58:36 <ehird> oklopol: not in 10 years if you don't have any skillz
13:58:53 <ehird> ofc the main issue with bux.to and the like is, well
13:58:54 <ehird> http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg
13:58:57 <ehird> they generally, you know
13:59:15 <ehird> but it's a total pyramid scheme
13:59:21 <ehird> nobody ethical would participate in a pyramid scheme anyway
13:59:29 <ehird> i think bux.to is perfectly legal.
13:59:34 <ehird> it doesn't HAVE to be a pyramid scheme
13:59:40 <ehird> you just won't earn more than peanuts if you don't treat it as one
13:59:54 <oklopol> maybe not in pyramid schemes where most people don't know they are pyramid schemes
14:00:00 <oklopol> but as a form of gamble, why not
14:00:16 <ehird> bux.to would never admit they're a pyramid scheme
14:00:55 <ehird> they will never be able to pay insane amounts
14:01:04 <ehird> advertisers aren't really interested in giving ads to people who will close it immediately
14:01:07 <ehird> and are just doing it to get cash
14:01:11 <ehird> because they won't look at the product
14:01:49 <ehird> otoh it would be nice to have a few more $k lying around and then give up on it
14:02:10 <ehird> they've paid plenty of people.
14:02:16 <oklopol> k's are boring, i want M's
14:02:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://cache0.techcrunch.com/wp-content/buxto.jpg
14:02:19 <ehird> just not if you earn too much, and sporadically
14:02:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i'm not short on cash
14:02:28 <ehird> because of cashflow issues
14:02:42 <oklopol> i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it
14:02:45 <ehird> you can just build up a few $k — but not too much — wait until they have some cash
14:02:47 <ehird> and then jump ship
14:02:51 <oklopol> of course, if i was someone who liked stuff, i probably wouldn't have money
14:08:57 <ehird> wow ram is really cheap
14:13:19 <oklopol> so i was going to google number conversion, and wrote gonger in the url
14:14:11 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i have enough to live, and if i wanted stuff, i'd have money to buy it <-- whatever that thing is?
14:14:21 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion
14:14:24 * AnMaster considers oklopol wanting the Golden gate bridge
14:14:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: you asked if i was short on money
14:14:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, that was ages ago yes
14:14:39 * ehird considers oklopol buying a computer. for me.
14:14:41 <oklopol> but it got pushed in the stack
14:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot an important word
14:14:52 <ehird> oklopol: YOU WANT TO BUY A COMPUTER FOR ME
14:14:55 <oklopol> so i answered once ehird stopped being insane
14:15:03 <ehird> i stopped being insane?
14:15:11 <ehird> it feels peculiarly similar
14:15:16 <oklopol> ehird: well yes, you made it clear you weren't talking about easy ways
14:15:53 <ehird> oklopol: gimme £1 every week and I swear that you will have a chance of me giving you £1,000,000 that is 10% more likely than the lottery
14:15:56 <ehird> you don't even have to pick numbers
14:16:05 <ehird> ↑ easier, more likely
14:16:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion <-- intentional?
14:16:25 <oklopol> what would you do with it then?
14:16:25 <ehird> how should i know AnMaster
14:16:32 <ehird> oklopol: whaddya mena
14:16:42 <oklopol> "you won't win anyway, so i'll just keep it"?
14:17:05 <oklopol> i mean how're you going to get a million?
14:17:48 <ehird> (a) debt, (b) money from your bets
14:17:57 <ehird> it's rational to keep betting after you win because you might get another million
14:18:05 <ehird> so if you hit it first time, it's debt until i get a million, which i get from your bets
14:18:14 <ehird> and also any other sources of money i have
14:18:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:18:43 <oklopol> if i won a million, i would not bet again
14:18:47 <ehird> the chances of both you winning and me being stuck in permanent debt with no way to repay it are so astronomically unlikely even compared to you just winning that you should be more worried about me dying in a freak asteroid-and-chicken-wing accident
14:18:59 <ehird> if you want a million, and think this is a good way to get it
14:19:02 <ehird> why not get two million?
14:19:05 <ehird> oklopol: then i'll just enroll other people
14:19:10 <ehird> i have better odds, so there
14:19:11 <oklopol> why would i want two million?
14:19:13 <ehird> i expect your bets
14:20:03 <ehird> oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right?
14:20:22 <ehird> i just give you better chances and, depending on if you set up a batch, less work (no numbers)
14:20:28 <ehird> so c'mon, where's my quid
14:20:40 <oklopol> ehird: except you can't get enough players
14:20:55 <ehird> that's what they said to Baron von Lottery III
14:21:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: you do know that "a lot of people bet and then we repay the winning bets with the bets" is the exact same model as the lottery, right? <-- not exactly. The difference is that they can make sure they have the money... by not paying most of the people back
14:21:08 <oklopol> maybe he wasn't an annoying brat?
14:21:12 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, i don't need enough players necessarily
14:21:28 <ehird> because you will lose many, many times before you win; if you don't it's just temporary debt while i get more players
14:21:49 <ehird> i'm pretty much certain to be able any winnings within like ten years
14:23:22 <oklopol> ehird: if you seriously think you can make a better system than the lottery, then yeah, i'll start playing as soon as i see your ad on the net
14:23:43 <ehird> oklopol: my system gives you better odds
14:23:50 <oklopol> ehird: but it doesn't exist
14:24:03 <ehird> it starts running as soon as i get my first pound
14:34:22 <oklopol> ehird: do you know how to convert between rationals and doubles in j?
14:34:36 <ehird> i think so, second
14:35:19 <oklopol> i can't find anything for it in the docs
14:35:22 <ehird> oklopol: err it's isomorphic
14:35:25 <ehird> you don't have to convert
14:35:47 <oklopol> technically not, except for speedual purposes.
14:35:53 <ehird> oklopol: (1r2+o.1)-o.1
14:35:56 <oklopol> i need to print a rational in form i can see
14:36:09 <ehird> rationals are very seeable :
14:36:21 <oklopol> well if they are too long they aren't
14:36:33 <ehird> oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works
14:36:42 <oklopol> this one is like multiple hundred pages prolly
14:36:54 <ehird> i'm interested, what are you writing?
14:38:08 <oklopol> okay pi works, because it's not an exact number, but yes, ugly
14:38:14 <ehird> oklopol: +0.1-0.1 works
14:38:22 <ehird> +0.0 doesn't, dunno why
14:38:28 <ehird> oklopol: another silly option:
14:38:31 <oklopol> and i'm just calculating some lottery odds
14:39:05 <oklopol> also +0.1-0.1 doesn't work for me
14:39:26 <oklopol> maybe whether decimals are exact is implementation defined?
14:39:40 <ehird> oklopol: i suggest you use one of the base things
14:39:47 <ehird> you're meant to let j pick a representation in general i think
14:40:11 <oklopol> the rational is so big i can't print all of it
14:40:18 <ehird> oklopol: #:(numerator x) and #:(denomerator x)
14:40:40 <ehird> then you get the binary digits
14:40:42 <ehird> so you can just do
14:41:01 <ehird> that doesn't really help you get x.y though
14:41:09 <ehird> but you can limit how many digits you see
14:41:10 <ehird> but on second thoughts
14:41:34 <ehird> i didn't wnt to look it up
14:41:47 <ehird> +.y yields a two-element list of the real and imaginary parts of its argument. For example, +.3j5 is 3 5, and +.3 is 3 0 .
14:42:13 <ehird> that's imaginaries
14:42:16 <ehird> im so fucking stupid
14:42:50 <oklopol> but yes, it proves the creators of j probably know how to separate a tuple into it's components
14:42:51 <ehird> oklopol: use a foreign function or something from the libraries
14:42:54 <ehird> to convert to string or whatever
14:43:03 <oklopol> i'll just add and sub pi :P
14:43:08 <ehird> well yeah that works
14:44:00 <oklopol> only 1/10000 for 4 years of lottery, that actually puts it ahead of some of the more ridiculous ideas of mine, like walking to the bank and seeing if anyone notices you taking all their money.
14:44:30 <ehird> r2d =: monad define
14:44:40 <ehird> oklopol: lol that's some idea
14:44:48 <ehird> oklopol: also did you take into account how many people play lottery
14:44:54 <ehird> but did you get the numbers right
14:45:06 <oklopol> ehird: might be more probable than lottery, but you can only do it once :P
14:45:13 <oklopol> what about the number of people?
14:45:15 <ehird> just move all the time!
14:45:24 <ehird> oklopol: the more people that play the lottery, the less likely you are to win
14:46:05 <oklopol> well yes, but the big wins are only shared like 20% of the time
14:46:15 <oklopol> 20% being based on nothing.
14:46:31 <ehird> you gotta take the player counts into account or it's worthless
14:46:48 <oklopol> but yeah, that does make it slightly harder, except the ones where they're shared are usually ones in which the jackpot is high anyway
14:46:57 <oklopol> and splitting it doesn't drop under a millionn
14:47:12 <oklopol> in finland, that is, your jackpots are bigger afaik
14:47:55 <oklopol> ehird: i think statistically most lottery winners get a million.
14:48:27 <ehird> oklopol: email tech@jsoftware.com or jal@jsoftware.com ("application library" issues) and tell them to make a rational to float function or whatever
14:48:37 <ehird> adding and subtracting pi is for stupids
14:49:07 <oklopol> i know there's something for it, the j docs are just kinda... bad
14:49:25 <ehird> wow there's multiple active mailings lists for J
14:49:44 <oklopol> i'm afraid of mailing lists
14:49:52 <ehird> http://jsoftware.com/pipermail/programming/2009-July/thread.html
14:49:55 <ehird> tons of posts just this month
14:50:01 <ehird> and that's just one of them
14:50:11 <ehird> > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31)
14:50:11 <ehird> > in the fewest characters.
14:51:33 <oklopol> i can't convert doubles to rationals either :)
14:51:43 <ehird> oklopol: that's easy
14:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: also I'm not sure it's exact
14:52:04 <ehird> it does stop at 48 after all
14:52:13 <oklopol> i thought it was hard because you can't just inexact exact by adding something to i
14:52:26 <ehird> oklopol: well any float can be a rational
14:52:32 <ehird> but we don't have reals so it doesn't matter
14:52:54 <oklopol> what? i'm just talking about the conversions j has
14:53:11 <ehird> oklopol: well, o. 1 → 314159r100000
14:53:22 <ehird> it's just the wossname
14:53:28 <ehird> significand mantissa thingy
14:53:50 <ehird> oklopol: i'm converting a float to a rational
14:53:52 <oklopol> how does that help in making a double a rational?
14:54:02 <ehird> 3.14159 = 314159r100000
14:54:06 <oklopol> i guess you could multiply xD
14:54:08 <ehird> this is actually what we use for floating point thingy
14:54:16 <ehird> oklopol: well mine uses base 10 which kinda sucks
14:54:19 <ehird> lemme do it as base 2
14:54:54 <oklopol> wait i'm an idiot, that doesn't help
14:55:09 <ehird> oklopol: point is, the algorithm, stated fuzzily
14:55:15 <ehird> working in decimal, take the dot place
14:55:20 <ehird> and like just multiply 2
14:55:22 <ehird> then remove the dot
14:55:26 <ehird> and divide 'em into a rational
14:55:32 <ehird> the hard part is like, formulating this mathemagically
14:55:35 <ehird> you could use a tostring function :D
14:56:28 <oklopol> take the dot place, and multiply by two?
14:56:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> > Write a numeric constant with value 2147483648 (2^31)
14:56:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> > in the fewest characters.
14:56:34 <oklopol> multiply the number by two?
14:56:38 <ehird> oklopol: nonono, like
14:56:51 <ehird> if we're working in decimal
14:57:01 <ehird> that 10000 aligns with the 14159
14:57:03 <ehird> and is the same length
14:57:08 <ehird> then we remove the decimal place
14:57:23 <ehird> so basically, do that but with base-2 instead of base-10
14:57:28 <ehird> since the doubles are base-2 based
14:57:31 <ehird> instead of base-10 based
14:58:26 <oklopol> oh, right, modulo will get me the small digits just as well as binary and
14:59:18 <ehird> oklopol: i'll write a paste explaining it
15:00:03 <oklopol> i just don't get why the rationals, it's an integer
15:00:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, btw is your nick related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklo in any way?
15:03:40 <oklopol> i thought it might be like the point, that that's not exact, and you need to do something weird.
15:04:40 <ehird> oklopol: the double to rational conversion algorithm: http://pastie.org/556420.txt?key=fsnc1cgevfykunm0dlgwq
15:04:57 <ehird> i assume you already know it
15:05:03 <ehird> but maybe i expressed it wrong
15:05:17 <oklopol> There are five digits after the decimal point, so we take 10^5 = 100000 <<< how do you get the number of digits after decimal point?
15:05:43 <ehird> oklopol: (a) that's your problem, (b) the maximum is 5 so it's always five
15:06:26 <ehird> might differ for 64 bit or whatever
15:06:38 <ehird> but you can get bit size from ! (foreign)
15:06:41 <oklopol> 3.14159265358979 is how much vb could do
15:06:50 <ehird> at this point, oklopol starts hating J again :D
15:06:57 <ehird> oklopol: just never use doubles
15:07:14 <ehird> write a function for entering things in decimally form as rationals
15:07:29 <oklopol> ehird: anyway this was about knowing whether 2^31 is exact.
15:07:32 <ehird> that's easy to figure out the bits
15:08:07 <oklopol> actually i just checked and it is exact
15:08:24 <ehird> oklopol: dude, 2.14748e9 = 2147480000
15:08:52 <oklopol> so what you meant by "maximum is 5" was that j only prints first 5
15:09:06 <ehird> well it should print all of them dammit
15:09:11 <ehird> oklopol: anyway doubles are totally useless when you have rationals.
15:09:25 <oklopol> they make more sense when you look at them
15:09:59 <ehird> it's trivial to write (3 d 14159265) = pi approx as rational (for some values of trivial)
15:10:14 <ehird> and it's trivial to write dp (3 d 14159265) = 3,14159265
15:10:15 <oklopol> of course rationals are as fast, asymptotically, if you round them a bit.
15:10:25 <ehird> also rationals are more elegant and less machine
15:10:30 <ehird> and they can represent 1r3
15:10:36 <ehird> whereas, y'know, doubles can't
15:10:42 <ehird> in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks.
15:11:06 <ehird> oklopol: ok they can represent 1r3 but the 1 they give is not really 1
15:11:14 <ehird> it's too machine :<
15:11:27 <oklopol> doubles can represent 1 exactly, and they can't represent 1r3
15:11:51 <oklopol> my ... was because i have no idea what your point is, yes, rationals > doubles in range
15:11:54 <ehird> but it's a ... lame kind of 1%3
15:12:00 <ehird> it's just rounding shit that makes it 1
15:13:35 <ehird> one issue with j rationals is that you can't do (expr r expr)
15:13:37 <ehird> because it's syntax
15:13:54 <ehird> but % generally works on rationals so.
15:14:53 <ehird> oklopol: lol look at the help page for d.
15:15:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> in conclusion rationals are fucking awesome and anyone using doubles sucks. <-- what about single precision?
15:16:01 <AnMaster> I mean, do you hate it as much?
15:16:40 <oklopol> singles are just doubles a few generations ago
15:17:02 <oklopol> okay few generations was maybe a bit of an overestimate.
15:17:05 <AnMaster> well I shall remind ehird about this next time he is using any program using 3D graphics.
15:17:20 <ehird> fuck you AnMaster rationals are awesome
15:17:22 <AnMaster> mostly rendering 3D is a case of floating point calculations
15:17:25 <oklopol> those use singles? aren't doubles faster generally
15:17:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, opengl can use both in theory iirc
15:18:05 <AnMaster> but singles are more common usually. You don't need the extra precision most of the time when rendering the environment or whatever in a game
15:18:33 <AnMaster> (there are exceptions however)
15:18:40 <oklopol> well right, for something where the calculations go on forever, you want the subset of reals you're using have bounded representations
15:18:58 <oklopol> or the algorithms get asymptotically slower
15:18:59 <AnMaster> (like z-buffer for long distances, I have seen single precision fuck up badly there.)
15:19:47 <oklopol> and of course, if we're talking actual computers, you need doubles to actually render anything, because rationals are many times slower anyway
15:19:53 <AnMaster> that is, when there is a semi-transparent object in front of another object, close to each other, but quite far from the camera
15:20:05 <oklopol> z buffer? do you know what a z buffer is?
15:20:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, used to be able to decide wich order to render objects should be rendered when they overlap
15:21:22 <oklopol> yes, afaik it's exactly that
15:21:37 <oklopol> it's always cool to hear someone use a term i've only learned from dusty books
15:21:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, point was, the distance for the pixel was stored as a single, and the object was far away and had another object very close behind it
15:22:10 <oklopol> yeah i know what the issue is
15:22:15 <AnMaster> thus due to precision issues they ended up flickering kindof
15:22:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, such problems are common in flightsims. Just look at the cockpit window of an aircraft at the other end of the airport. :)
15:23:11 <AnMaster> and the yoke inside the window
15:27:09 <ehird> it's so concise and useless
15:27:13 <ehird> and has a bunch of examples
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15:28:31 <ehird> it doesn't look like a derivative tho
15:29:07 <oklopol> well, okay, i guess some of the really general high order functions are kinda stupid, because j doesn't actually do any algebra, just special cases some stuff you might want to use it on
15:29:14 <oklopol> it also has inverse and shti
15:29:45 <oklopol> but inverse is actually pretty cool, there's that one adverb that lifts a value with the function, performs another function on it, then unlifts it using the first one's inverse
15:29:51 <oklopol> so you can supply an inverse for you functions
15:30:01 <oklopol> and you can get pretty darn cool definitions for some sutff
15:30:16 <oklopol> like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog
15:30:22 <oklopol> like multiplications is log -> add -> antilog
15:30:39 <ehird> yeah but it can't really inversify
15:31:05 <oklopol> it inverses some basic functions, and some types of combinations of them are inversible
15:31:23 <oklopol> you'll have to supply hard obverses (as j calls them) yourself
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15:31:57 <oklopol> functions can have all kinds of additional info hanging on them, the inverse is one of them
15:32:28 <ehird> yeah i don't like that shit
15:32:56 <oklopol> you'd love it if you saw what obverses can do ;)
15:33:13 <ehird> can they make me toast
15:33:25 <oklopol> but yes, it is pretty hacky, and i'm not sure i like the thing myself.
15:34:49 <ehird> [[Factual errors: When Kate is describing the specs of her machine she says, “It's a P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium”. Dade then says, “Yeah. It's not just the chip, it has a PCI bus”. Kate says, “Indeed. RISC architecture is gonna change everything”. The P6 chip is a CISC design, not a RISC. Also, the Pentium has a PCI bus so there wouldn't be any reason to mention it.]]
15:34:53 <ehird> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/goofs
15:35:02 <ehird> [[Factual errors: In the scene when Acid is showing-off her laptop, they speak of the laptop having a processor called a P6 and a PCI bus. Further examination of this scene and another scene with them looking over the damaged code, the laptop that Acid-burn has is clearly a Macintosh Powerbook 280C (sub-notebook) made by Apple Computer Inc. This model does not have a PCI-bus, or a P6. It does have a Motorola 68030 33mhz CPU. ]]
15:35:06 <ehird> [[Factual errors: Kate's "insanely great" laptop is described as having a "28.8 bps" modem: a thousand times slower than a standard 28.8 kilobits per second one. ]]
15:35:31 <ehird> [[Revealing mistakes: When swimming in the rooftop pool at the end, Kate and Dade's ears are underwater as they talk to each other. They wouldn't be able to hear one another if their ears were submerged.]]
15:35:33 <ehird> you know the sad thing
15:35:36 <ehird> someone watched it so many times
15:35:37 <ehird> just to compile this
15:38:25 <fizzie> (A Gibson is a mainframe of some sort.)
15:39:16 <ehird> i bet the gibson had dual P6 processors
15:39:29 <ehird> it's gonna change everything again
15:39:30 <oklopol> what's all this hacker talk right here
15:39:46 <ehird> it'll have 32 megabytes of memory
15:40:34 <fizzie> Urban dictionary meaning number 5:
15:40:35 <fizzie> To Fuck a Dog in the anus
15:40:35 <fizzie> Eg. Me fucking your doberman would be to Hack the Gibson.
15:40:51 <fizzie> That's a bit out-of-place compared to the other meanings.
15:40:56 <ehird> i'm gonna hack the dual-processor gibson
15:43:44 <ehird> i want a planet the size of the sun
15:43:48 <ehird> can you imagine how awesome that would be
15:44:24 <oklopol> how would that be awesome exactly?
15:44:33 <ehird> oklopol: okay it's like
15:44:38 <ehird> go all the way around
15:44:43 <ehird> there would continually be a mystery
15:44:47 <ehird> of planetelial proportions
15:44:50 <ehird> the internet would be so lagged
15:44:57 <ehird> there'd be SO MUCH STUFF
15:45:02 <ehird> if you run out of stuff
15:45:10 <ehird> dudei t'd be fucking rad.
15:45:14 <ehird> dude it'd be fucking rad.
15:45:15 <oklopol> but there's that much stuff on earth as well
15:45:25 <ehird> with earth you eventually go alllllllll the way around
15:45:28 <ehird> also not as much internet lag
15:45:30 <ehird> with the sun you die before that
15:45:32 <ehird> and toooooons of internet lag
15:45:37 <ehird> it'd be fucking awesome.
15:46:12 <ehird> oklopol: no the sun is quite big :P
15:46:14 <oklopol> die before getting around it yourself?
15:46:31 <ehird> so you could never, ever run out of stuff
15:46:34 <oklopol> that may be, also you'd die from gravity anyway, unless there's some scheme around that
15:46:51 <ehird> just put an anti gravity machine in the core.
15:46:54 <oklopol> but internets flow around it in a few secs.
15:47:04 <ehird> but a few secs is everything
15:47:15 <ehird> actually i really like super gravity
15:47:29 <ehird> everything being crushed to an unimaginable degree and pummeled to the surface is just
15:47:44 <oklopol> does seem kinda pure an beautiful.
15:47:58 <ehird> what would a glio planet be
15:48:04 <ehird> you know what i want a cube planet
15:48:12 <ehird> it'd be a planet that is a cube
15:48:43 <oklopol> it's like 8 perfect mountains
15:48:51 <ehird> oklopol: cubeular mountains?
15:50:45 <ehird> oklopol: would this planet be as big as the biggest sun
15:51:30 <oklopol> well i might prefer one where you can slide down the mountain without a fear in the world.
15:51:40 <oklopol> also i had a dream i was riding this motorcycle
15:52:08 <oklopol> if only i had the balls to actually ride one.
15:52:52 <ehird> http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome
15:54:20 <oklopol> isn't that how they're always defined
15:55:19 <pikhq> You know how multiplication is iterated addition, and exponentiation is iterated multiplication?
15:55:28 <pikhq> Tetration is iterated exponentiation.
15:55:35 <ehird> way to read the 5 line backlog
15:55:41 <ehird> actually 4 above "so"
15:59:39 <nooga> ehird: http://noordering.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/exponentiation-types/ this is awesome is awesome
16:03:41 <ehird> i just had an epiphany
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16:05:44 <ehird> it's dependent types of the equality
16:07:30 <oklopol> never share epiphanies before you've washed them
16:07:45 <ehird> you're in spacet hough
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16:08:33 -!- fizzie has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
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16:10:05 <ehird> at least he doesn't show up as an op to me
16:10:22 * GregorR-L slaps ehird and forces him to read :P
16:10:38 <oklopol> HELLO IM HUMAN I CAN CORECT TYPOS WITH MY EIS
16:11:00 <oerjan> THE FINGERS NEED MORE TRAINING THOUGH
16:14:23 <ehird> (p+q) x=p x || q x
16:14:28 <ehird> so we need like || but True/False are like, types
16:14:37 <ehird> have a pattern match on typesb ut we can't
16:14:41 <ehird> i'm not sure how we would do ||
16:15:15 <oerjan> ehird: Either is generally considered something like that
16:15:23 <ehird> it's just type, calculus, thingy
16:15:29 <ehird> with dependent types and sets as functions and types and
16:15:40 <ehird> (p*q) x = p x && q x you would think but i'm not sure that works as like a tuple
16:15:45 <ehird> you'd have to find a value that is both a p and a q
16:15:47 <oerjan> except it has an extra bottom in haskell
16:17:25 <oerjan> ehird: it's categorical product, where you can use morphisms to turn it into the right type
16:17:31 <ehird> ///////////////what
16:17:40 <oerjan> so you have (p,q) -> p and (p,q) -> q functions
16:17:43 <ehird> oerjan: so like what would it be with the and the is the
16:17:50 <ehird> it' wouldn't be true that we return would it or would be m
16:17:53 <ehird> ybe the siatiscati
16:19:38 <oerjan> lessee it's this stuff with cartesian closed categories. Bool is a category with two objects, False and True and exactly one morphism between everything except from True to False
16:20:04 <oerjan> (any distributive lattice or something like that)
16:20:08 <ehird> also false is a a ///////////////////////////////////// wait am i thinking rightmaybe is it not
16:20:36 <oerjan> ehird: types correspond to objects when you do the cartesian closed category stuff, i believe
16:20:51 <ehird> ///////////////////////////////////////////////// I'M BASICALLY RIPPing this ideas from another system als oiamcrazy today.
16:21:56 * oerjan probably doesn't remember this clearly enough to be of any help, if he ever did
16:22:09 <ehird> mfkdfdfdfkdfkjdfjkdfjdfdfjdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjdfjdfjkdfjkdfdfkdfkdfkdfjkdfkjfddfkjdfjkdfkjfdjkdfjkdfjkdfkjdfjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfjkdfkjdfjkfdjkdfjkdfkjdfkjdfkjfdjkdfjfdjkfdjkfdkjdfkjdfjkdfjkfdjkdfkjdfkj oerjan i could give you a link to where i done rip.
16:23:22 <oklopol> oerjan: sometimes i get the feeling you don't really understand math that well, just memorized tons of cool sentences
16:23:51 <ehird> oklopol: he'll publish you
16:24:35 <ehird> MSACRO0 FICKING PHOTOGRAPHY
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16:27:48 <oerjan> oklopol: the vaguely recalled basic thing here is that the Curry-Howard isomorphism, which is between programs/types and proofs/theorems, can be extended with one more step, morphisms/objects in a suitable category. for the basic intuitionistic propositional logic this corresponds to the cartesian closed categories. i think.
16:28:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E2%80%93Howard_correspondence#Curry.E2.80.93Howard.E2.80.93Lambek_correspondence
16:29:16 <oklopol> i can memorize that with no trouble
16:31:00 <oerjan> well this is vague enough i almost accept the accusation :D
16:32:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: bitch what's that for
16:33:16 <oerjan> to bitch or not to bitch, that's the question
16:34:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: deundismexcommunicate me
16:44:27 <oerjan> in this case, it means "that's MADNESS"
16:45:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? I don't see what is so mad about it
16:45:37 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
16:46:14 <AnMaster> you won't understand it unless you followed the comic
16:46:22 <AnMaster> it quite depends on previous strips
16:46:30 <oerjan> you need to know that that woman is supposed to be Jane Goodall at a younger age :D
16:46:50 <oklopol> is jane goodall a famous person?
16:46:52 <oerjan> well that's the minimum
16:46:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about knowing about that guy and Steve
16:47:33 <oerjan> yes. yes she is. and IWC portrays her almost as the exact opposite of the real one
16:47:44 <oklopol> and who is this jane character
16:48:27 <oerjan> http://www.janegoodall.org/
16:48:34 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall
16:48:50 <oklopol> i guess i can read a few lines
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16:51:46 <oerjan> did you notice graue's question whether you do backups of the wiki?
16:51:49 <AnMaster> irritating. I burned a cd and checked the "verify after burning" option in k3 b
16:52:21 <AnMaster> it reported "failed"... I used dd to dump the cd to a file. checked it against the iso, exactly the same
16:52:36 <AnMaster> so I wonder what happened there...
16:54:05 <ais523> :For esoteric programming, there doesn't have to be any reason why anyone should use anything. --[[User:Zzo38|Zzo38]]
16:54:11 <ais523> looks like zzo38 has the idea down right too
16:54:20 <ais523> oerjan: I personally don't do backups
16:54:24 <ais523> although IIRC all the other admins do
16:54:39 <ais523> if it turns out the wiki's low on backuppers, I may start
16:54:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird complained about that comment. Something about "uncofusing" the talk page or something
16:55:06 <oerjan> ais523: apparently graue's own backups started failing
16:56:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: don't ask me, i wasn't even present at the discussion
16:56:40 <oerjan> oklopol: gibbering fnord?
16:57:06 <oklopol> that was about unconfusing
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17:01:41 * ais523 grabs Esolang backup just in case
17:02:19 <ais523> also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works
17:02:23 <ais523> it's good to have at least 2 working backups
17:03:28 <ais523> looks like the relevant information's there
17:03:28 <AnMaster> I recently saw an old digital camera with a *floppy* in it. How strange.
17:04:28 <oklopol> ehird: floppies are what we used back in the day instead of dvd's and frisbees
17:05:37 <GregorR-L> Observation: The diff between one day's SQL dump and the next is 66MB ...
17:05:41 <oklopol> agrgh my hands are dirty ->
17:05:50 <GregorR-L> I conclude that keeping them differentially does not appear to work.
17:06:17 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, is the previous one 0?
17:08:20 <GregorR-L> Oh, I must have got the screwed-up dump?
17:08:43 <GregorR-L> Length: 662295 (647K) [application/x-bzip2]
17:09:02 <ais523> wiki dumps tend to be quite large
17:09:16 <GregorR-L> It's probably a dump from when the DB was borkleborked.
17:09:26 <ais523> still contains all the info, though
17:12:31 <AnMaster> virtualbox fails. It lists one CD drive. /dev/fd0 for use
17:15:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a drop down box, so I can't even enter the right one
17:21:47 <ais523> yet more fun in the SCO bankruptcy; it seems that one of the new companies who's trying to get involved has almost the same address and phone number as one of the ones who showed up earlier
17:21:52 <ais523> differing in just the last few characters
17:22:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it is unlikely to be a coincidence
17:35:50 <ehird> 17:02 ais523: also, I'm checking Calamari's backup to make sure it works
17:35:50 <ehird> 17:02 ais523: it's good to have at least 2 working backups
17:35:52 <ehird> 17:03 ais523: looks like the relevant information's there
17:35:58 <ehird> the last backup was broken
17:36:11 <ais523> it seems to contain the information, though, despite being broken
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17:36:26 <ais523> and I don't have a working mediawiki to try to undump it to
17:36:27 <ehird> but we had to rebuild a table
17:36:33 <ehird> by finding out the structure and shit
17:36:40 <ehird> so the problem is that all backups only keep one
17:36:46 <ehird> part from GregorR-L's
17:37:02 <ais523> hmm... maybe we should make an xml backup as well as the sql one?
17:40:00 <AnMaster> huh, virtualbox doesn't simulate x86_64?
17:40:45 <AnMaster> "Software virtualization is not supported for 64-bit VMs." <-- sigh. Makes it useless for me
17:41:54 <Asztal> it supports 64-bit guests on 32-bit hosts for me
17:41:56 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. A pain to use though... I need to test some archlinux stuff in advance...
17:42:05 <Asztal> at least, it's supposed to
17:42:08 <AnMaster> Asztal, only if you have hardware virtualization support
17:42:35 <ehird> you can't HW virtualize 64 bit on 32 bit
17:42:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes you can. Of course the CPU has to be 64-bit. Just the host OS doesn't need to me
17:43:25 <ehird> you need long mode, no?
17:43:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but the kernel module for virtualbox would take care or changing to that temporarily.
17:44:07 <ehird> you can't temporarily change to long mode
17:44:35 <AnMaster> except it doesn't use VT-x/AMD-V
17:44:53 <ehird> you mean it doesn't do the whole thing i'm talking about
17:45:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure what you are talking about
17:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm talking about x86_64 OS running under virtualbox or vmware with a 32-bit host but a 64-bit *capable* CPU
17:45:50 <AnMaster> for virtualbox you also need VT-x/AMD-V however
17:46:08 <ehird> i'm pretty sure only vmware does that.
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17:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I have the virtualbox documentation open
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/1504521
17:48:35 <AnMaster> I can't link you to it, for some reason it decided to use some shitty chm file + kchmviewer to view the docs in
17:48:51 <ehird> presumably, it was originally windows only
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17:52:38 <pikhq> Huh. If you google "recursion", Google returns "Did you mean: /Recursion/".
18:00:49 <oerjan> huh it even works in norwegian...
18:00:58 <ehird> is today recursion day?
18:01:04 <ehird> there's a ton of recursion "jokes" on reddit
18:01:15 <pikhq> No, recursion's just awesome.
18:01:33 <ehird> recursion is the functional equivalent of goto
18:01:40 <pikhq> Fine, fine, so you want corecursion.
18:02:02 <ais523> ehird: a) recursion is the functional equivalent of goto; b) recursion is awesome anyway
18:02:08 <Deewiant> "Recursion" as a concept encompasses things like recursive datatypes
18:02:10 <ehird> ais523: yes, but goto is awesome too.
18:02:15 <oerjan> ehird: that's only tail recursion...
18:02:24 <ehird> oerjan: i meant in low-levelness.
18:10:01 <fizzie> Just as a data point; it does work in the Finnish version too.
18:12:02 <oklopol> why don't we have a real term for that
18:16:24 <fizzie> I'm sure Icelandic has their own word; they're so against loanwords.
18:17:19 <fizzie> Pretty much every language uses something "robot"-sounding for, well, robots; in Icelandic it's "þjarki". Okay, so there are a couple of other exceptions in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/robot too but still.
18:17:54 <oklopol> i just know they have their own for tv, but so does german, so
18:18:33 <fizzie> I can't quite be sure what the Bengali রোবট sounds like.
18:18:48 <oerjan> hm "rekursio" does not work from norwegian google
18:19:33 <oklopol> oh you do that sorta thing
18:19:38 <fizzie> "rekursio" and "recursion" both work for the Fi google; "rekursjon" doesn't. Well, it suggests "rekursion".
18:19:51 <ehird> what does rekursion do
18:20:16 <ehird> does it have the thingy on fi:
18:20:42 <fizzie> It could be Swedish too, the top-ten hits seem rather German though.
18:20:54 <ehird> does it have the correction on fi:
18:21:31 <fizzie> Well, no. Just the Finnish "rekursio" and the English "recursion" seem to have the self-as-suggestion thing.
18:21:45 <ehird> i guess cause forners google in english a lot
18:22:58 <oklopol> i don't really google in finnish at all
18:24:24 <fizzie> 8th result (seen from here) for Finnish "rekursio" in .com Google (why didn't I just say google.com?) is one of those Finnish systems which collect links from IRC channels, stating that http://www.google.fi/search?q=rekursio was mentioned 4 hours ago in an "#entropy" channel at IRCnet. How recursive.
18:25:33 <oklopol> i thought just the word recursino
18:25:50 <oklopol> that would've been more interesting
18:26:46 <oerjan> fizzie: no, recursive would have been the "#esoteric" channel at Freenode, silly.
18:28:15 <oerjan> ah the recursino, the anti-elementary particle
18:28:31 <oklopol> that would've been significantly less interesting
18:28:52 <oklopol> think about it, a finnish channel with people talking about recursion
18:29:39 <ehird> ontology was last said in this room 0 seconds ago
18:29:55 <oerjan> the recursino consists, of course, of two recursinos, a positron, and a left quark.
18:30:37 <ehird> oerjan: minus two recursinos, duh
18:31:04 <oerjan> ehird: rubbish, -ino is a common suffix for elementary particles
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18:31:20 <fizzie> I think that channel is for the electronic-music-themed sub-association-thing of the student union of my university, actually. I don't think they speak about recursion much.
18:31:21 <ehird> you said it was an anti-elementary particle
18:31:33 <oklopol> why the positron and left quark, part of the joke, random, or inevitability because of some property of particles?
18:31:34 <oerjan> yes. maybe it should be recursi, then.
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18:31:40 <ehird> I think a recursino is two recursinos and a strange quark.
18:31:46 <ehird> after all, there's nothing stranger than recursion
18:31:56 <ehird> combining the two recursinos in one
18:32:00 <oerjan> oklopol: the left quark is essential.
18:32:20 <ehird> the strange quark.
18:32:20 <oerjan> ehird: the left quark is also pretty strange
18:32:31 <ehird> yes but the strange quark lets you know it's strange
18:32:47 <ehird> also left quarks don't actually exist
18:32:57 <ehird> according to wikipedia at least :P
18:33:23 <ehird> in conclusion, recursino = {recursino, recursino, strange quark}
18:33:40 <ehird> oerjan: hmm doesn't that give us infinite energy?
18:33:57 <ehird> it's infinite ... stuff
18:34:13 <oerjan> yes, but the extra energy is released as binding energy
18:34:35 <ehird> recursino = {recursino, recursino, tachyon}
18:34:51 <ehird> oerjan: what would we need to do to give it infinite energy?
18:35:33 <oerjan> ehird: maybe some hilbert hotel trick with the constituents?
18:35:53 <oklopol> the hilbert hotel doesn't exist according to wikipedia
18:36:06 <ehird> oerjan: i still don't see why you can't just use all the extra quarks/tachyons/whatever
18:36:10 <ehird> descending through the recursinos
18:36:53 <oerjan> ehird: sure, but you use hilbert's hotel trick to get them out without leaving holes
18:37:06 <ehird> but that doesn't require changing the recursino does it?
18:37:37 <ehird> oerjan: tachyons would pose a bit of weirdness though wouldn't they
18:37:46 <ehird> having to put the energy BACK in or something :D
18:38:43 <oerjan> that is a bit beyond my expertise to answer
18:41:13 <oerjan> we may note that if a left quark decays to a strange quark and an electron, then those two compositions of the recursino may be equivalent
18:41:41 <ehird> mine didn't have an electron
18:41:59 <oerjan> mine had an extra positron, duh
18:42:04 <ehird> recursino = {recursino, strange quark}
18:42:11 <ehird> ↑ isn't that the minimum required for infinite energy
18:42:17 <ehird> do you need two recursinos for the hilbert trick
18:42:51 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Fine, fine, so you want corecursion. <-- ?
18:43:24 <AnMaster> atm I'm on a handheld, so browser is not an easy option!
18:43:26 <oerjan> well, if you had read about corecursion, you would know
18:44:50 <AnMaster> <oklopol> what's rekursion?<-- probably Swedish too. But I seldom talk about programming in Swedish, so wouldn't know
18:46:19 <oerjan> "Notice that corecursion creates (potentially infinite) codata, whereas ordinary recursion analyses (necessarily finite) data."
18:46:45 <oerjan> fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
18:47:00 <oerjan> is an example of corecursion in haskell
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19:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, btw did you order that linux system yet?
19:20:52 * AnMaster is waiting for arch to install under qemu
19:21:15 <AnMaster> atm it is generating the damn initcpio thingy
19:22:21 <AnMaster> huh new holiday logo at google... again only on search results page yet.
19:22:38 <AnMaster> http://img0.gmodules.com/logos/comic-con09_res.gif
19:22:46 * AnMaster wonders what that is supposed to be
19:23:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i seem to recognize some superheroes
19:24:03 <fizzie> Well, comic-con 09 is going on, so...
19:24:15 <ehird> i guessed a con of some kind form the url
19:24:17 <fizzie> http://www.ginside.com/content/2009/07/comics-comicon-google-logo.jpg has a bigger picture.
19:24:26 <fizzie> (I don't know where it came from.)
19:24:54 <fizzie> Wonder woman is there too.
19:25:39 * ehird gets an urge to play super mario bros 1
19:26:00 <fizzie> The small figure in the g hook?
19:26:00 <oerjan> and elastic man, if that's right in english
19:26:37 <AnMaster> ehird, did you say arch on lvm was a bit tricky or whatever? I don't remember
19:26:49 <ehird> it wasn't tricky once i set the right option in the kernel thing
19:27:03 <fizzie> oerjan: It seems to be Plastic Man in English.
19:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well it seems it generated an /etc/fstab missing the root file system (which is on lvm...)(
19:27:37 <oerjan> fizzie: i recall they both exist, and are slightly different...
19:27:41 * ehird realises he's terrible at smb 1
19:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use cifs instead?
19:27:56 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you partitioning such a small drive btw
19:28:04 <ehird> that's just asking for a world of pain
19:28:13 <ehird> the laptop i assume we're talking about
19:28:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, there's Elongated Man and Plastic Man who I can find references to.
19:28:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have the laptop yet... It will arrive on Monday or Thusday... But I'm testing something out...
19:28:49 <oerjan> ah yes elastic -> elongated
19:28:51 <ehird> I'm just saying that LVM isn't a good path there because partitioning isn't
19:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I need to partition it anyway: /boot swap / at minimum
19:29:01 <fizzie> Elastic Man in wikipedia redirects to Elongated Man; "he only created the character because he didn't realize DC Comics had acquired Plastic Man in 1956".
19:29:11 <ehird> AnMaster: /boot doesn't need a partition
19:29:12 <AnMaster> ehird, and I want encrypted /home anyway
19:29:17 <ehird> and don't you have 4gb of ram in that thing anyway
19:29:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it does, since I'm going for ext4
19:29:42 <AnMaster> ehird, as for ram, not by default no. But I ordered extra ram
19:30:10 <ehird> does it have the 1680x1050 display?
19:30:43 <AnMaster> ehird, don't remember numbers of the top of my head, but it was same as what you suggested for resolution anyway
19:31:09 <ehird> maybe you'll finally appreciate subpixel antialiasing, you uncouth... thing.
19:32:47 <ehird> there should be an smb 1 clone where you can just jump
19:32:50 <ehird> you're always going right
19:33:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i conclude that google picture is closest to plastic man, though
19:34:49 <oerjan> fortunately, as it seems his suit design is more stable than that of the other guy
19:36:10 <ehird> it's pissing me off already
19:36:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said about SMB... why not use CIFS? SMB is marked as deprecated in the kernel iirc...
19:36:18 <ehird> r2d =: monad define
19:36:22 <ehird> should totally not be neccessary :P
19:36:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Har har you are so funny I meant super mario brothers.
19:36:56 * GregorR-L tries to think of a name for a platformer that's CIFS for short.
19:37:18 <ehird> CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE Fast Shooter
19:37:22 <ehird> It works better if you imagine it's japanese.
19:37:45 <ehird> CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター
19:37:54 <ehird> AnMaster: They all seem to have English phrases lumped in with their japanese.
19:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you either copied those or made them up?
19:38:10 <oerjan> GregorR-L: coming in from space
19:38:14 <ehird> It translates to "CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE fast shooter".
19:38:27 <ehird> Now I want to make CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター.
19:38:44 <AnMaster> ehird, actually google could translate to some other meaning of fast or shooter
19:39:09 <ehird> No, I translated it back.
19:39:11 <ehird> So it seems quite likely.
19:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and? A language could have two different words for fast as in "speed" or fast as in "time"
19:39:39 <ehird> so could your mom but I don't make a big deal of it
19:39:51 <oerjan> GregorR-L: chimpanzee investigators FROM SPACE
19:40:17 <AnMaster> "snabbt" would work for both in Swedish. But "fort" would be more idiomatic about speed and "kvickt" is probably better about time...
19:40:36 <AnMaster> I wouldn't say using them in the other way is definitely wrong, just doesn't feel quite as right
19:41:08 <ehird> -----------------------------------
19:41:08 <ehird> | Chimpanzee Investigators |
19:41:10 <ehird> | ...FROM SPACE! |
19:41:12 <ehird> -----------------------------------
19:41:48 <ehird> I'm imagining it being a Lucas Arts-style adventure game.
19:41:49 <GregorR-L> And post a bunch of things about CIFS being better than SMB.
19:41:53 <ehird> you are chimpanzees
19:41:55 <ehird> you come from space
19:41:59 <ehird> you are investigating a crime by a human
19:42:02 <ehird> COMMITTED ON YOUR PLANET
19:42:08 <ehird> insert planet of the apes references to taste
19:42:29 <oerjan> ehird: i note you solved the slight ambiguity in my originally intended way
19:42:46 <ehird> the other way didn't even occur to me
19:44:16 <ehird> oklopol: you can't do infinite lists in J can you
19:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: things that investigate chimpanzees
19:44:35 <ehird> as opposed to chimpanzees that investigate
19:44:38 <ehird> oklopol: "not directly"?
19:44:40 <oklopol> i mean i don't know how at least
19:44:47 <ehird> hmm i guess you could box some code of how to generate the rest
19:44:52 <ehird> with the first element
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, make it "FROM OUTER SPACE"
19:44:56 <oklopol> ehird: well you can do a retarded sort of oo, so technically it's possible
19:44:59 <AnMaster> so it is a Plan9 reference too
19:45:06 <ehird> oklopol: ugh apart from that
19:45:11 <ehird> AnMaster: that's... not a plan 9 reference
19:45:13 <ehird> that's just a cliche
19:45:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: the acronym was predetermined
19:45:42 <GregorR-L> I was thinking humans who investigate chimpanzees, but this is admittedly better.
19:45:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: humans from... space?
19:46:04 <ehird> things that annoy me: J tries to coerce towards doubles, not rationals
19:46:05 <GregorR-L> They're from space if the chimpanzee planet isn't Earth :P
19:46:13 <ehird> 1r2,%11 = 0.5 0.0909091
19:46:34 <ehird> 1r3,%11 = 0.333333 0.0909091
19:47:41 <ehird> it should end with a huge WTF
19:47:55 <ehird> the alien race are actually descendents of the chimpanzees
19:47:57 <ehird> or the other way around
19:48:05 <ehird> (this after an inevitable love interest, thus giving extra yuks)
19:48:08 <ehird> they're all going to di
19:48:11 <ehird> because of something
19:48:22 <oklopol> WHAT A MAJOR TWIST WOULD THAT BE
19:48:42 <oerjan> i'm just _sure_ jane goodall is involved somehow.
19:48:46 <ehird> i prefer actually-we-just-didn't-tell-you-this-ists
19:48:54 <ehird> jane goodall is actually a chimp
19:50:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: maybe CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE高速シューター could be a subgame; part of a broken-down arcade
19:50:30 <ehird> with games like… uh…
19:50:35 <ehird> Snot Custard Warrior
19:50:45 <ehird> catchphrase: "S'not custard... it's SNOT!"
19:51:04 <ehird> moving is for idiots
19:52:55 <GregorR-L> At the end you wake up, your vision unblurs and you see that you're surrounded by (human) doctors.
19:52:59 <GregorR-L> Blah blah blah something about a coma.
19:53:09 <GregorR-L> Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
19:53:25 <ehird> you go back to the controlling
19:53:31 <ehird> you have to swipe off the humans
19:53:39 <ehird> THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS
19:54:00 <ehird> they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
19:54:06 <ehird> ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE
19:54:18 <ehird> blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah
19:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I tried 32-bit arch under virtualbox... Got hit by this bug: http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/2149
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20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> Jul 23 14:53:09 <GregorR-L> Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> <GregorR-L> Oh and btw those guys are the chimpanzee investigators.
20:03:34 <GregorR-L_> <GregorR-L> Thought that would be clear but rereading maybe it's not :P
20:03:45 <GregorR-L_> I got d/c'd before I could finish my twist.
20:03:51 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Oh, ha.
20:03:56 <ehird> GregorR-L_: Here's how I continued:
20:04:05 <ehird> 19:53 GregorR-L: Then it goes to a 3rd person view ... and you're still a chimpanzee!
20:04:05 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: and then
20:04:06 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: you go back to the controlling
20:04:10 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: you have to swipe off the humans
20:04:12 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: revealing
20:04:14 <ehird> 19:53 ehird: THE PREVIOUSLY-UNMENTIONED ANTAGONISTS
20:04:16 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: they explain their plan to you—of course—and throw you out the window. LOOK OUT FOR CHIMPANZEE INVESTIGATORS FROM SPACE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
20:04:19 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: ONLY FROM ESOTERIC SOFTWARE
20:04:21 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: blah blah mail order blah blah 20 bucks blah blah
20:04:25 <ehird> it can be tied into yours easily
20:04:29 <ehird> turns out the chimpanzee investigators are the bad guys hur hur
20:04:31 <ehird> man i'm awesome at terrible twists
20:04:41 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, great ability for a sequel there...
20:05:52 <ehird> GregorR-L_: rate my continuation of the twist on a scale of -10 to 0
20:06:31 <GregorR-L_> It doesn't QUITE mesh with mine, since, y'know, why are the chimpanzee investigators throwing out a perfectly good chimpanzee?
20:06:50 <ehird> GregorR-L_: hmm true
20:06:53 <ehird> well we can amend that part
20:06:58 <ehird> instead of being thrown out
20:07:12 <oerjan> GregorR-L_: to investigate its behavior in the WILD, duh
20:07:18 <ehird> it's just a building.
20:10:17 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:13:32 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
20:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the reason I want to use lvm is simple: 1) I want ext4, so /boot must be separate anyway 2) I want encrypted /home but not anything else encrypted. 3) I don't know how large /home and how large / I will need... So I'm going for lvm to be able to resize as I need it.
20:30:42 <AnMaster> what I'm about to test is that resizing work when encryption is used
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20:36:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Strictly speaking, the encryption isn't through LVM.
20:36:29 <AnMaster> what I meant was encrypting an LVM lv
20:36:44 <AnMaster> and if you could still grow that lv (and the file system inside it) then
20:36:51 <AnMaster> which I'm still not sure about
20:36:59 <pikhq> Should work just fine, assuming that the dm-crypt volume is growable.
20:37:17 <pikhq> If not, you'll need to make another dm-crypt volume and have your logical volume on two physical volumes.
20:38:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, IDEA (lower layer first): PV - VG - LV:/home - cryptsetup-luks - /dev/encrypted-home - /home
20:38:58 <AnMaster> so question is, if the layer LV grows, can the cryptsetup layer grow (and, of course, the file system in it)
20:39:23 <pikhq> The only question with that is cryptsetup's capabilities.
20:40:01 <AnMaster> and it has a resize option, yet it seems some people indicate it only works for plain volumes, not LUKS ones
20:40:46 <pikhq> Well, what you can do is grow the logical volume, then grow the encrypted volume, then grow the filesystem.
20:40:52 <pikhq> I see no reason why that wouldn't work...
20:41:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, see top of http://www.saout.de/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=ResizeLUKSPartitions
20:41:19 <AnMaster> atm trying to set up a volume to test with
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20:50:45 <pikhq> C++0x is dead, long live C++1x.
20:50:48 <pikhq> (it's official now!)
20:54:58 * AnMaster deletes the vm now that he is done with it...
20:55:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
20:59:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would have been a nice retcon
20:59:57 <AnMaster> anyway isn't it a case of second system syndrome?
21:00:20 <Deewiant> C++ itself is, C++0x not so much
21:00:34 * oerjan wanted to chip in with third, there
21:01:20 <oerjan> well why didn't you, then
21:01:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah you know what I mean
21:01:58 <oerjan> wink wink, nudge nudge
21:03:20 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge
21:20:32 <ehird> 20:41 oklopol: god i love reading j
21:26:48 <oklopol> except when it takes 20 minutes and i realize i must not perfectly understand the parsing
21:27:28 <ehird> oklopol: what code are you reading, i just love to see new j code
21:27:47 <oklopol> i generally just read the labs, still plenty of unread material there
21:28:06 <ehird> the labs are too linear for me.
21:29:10 <ehird> i mean i don't feel like i'm being taught hte language
21:29:21 <ehird> i feel more like i'm being dictated marketspeak of how good the language is
21:29:41 <oklopol> they aren't very good learning material
21:30:03 <ehird> oh and it isn't just dictating how good the language is
21:30:12 <ehird> it's making ME participate, in rigidly defined ways
21:30:12 <oklopol> mainly because it's tons of work to actually read the sample code, because it's always 50% completely new things the labs don't explain
21:31:13 <oklopol> i learn best from books, should probably buy a j one
21:31:38 <ehird> oklopol: most of the books are in the j docs
21:31:41 <ehird> you should write your own
21:32:08 <ehird> call it "j is kind of like a rabbit" or somehting
21:32:12 <ehird> and make it an extended metaphor about rabbits
21:32:49 <ehird> "% is like a rabbit's ears. it divides numbers."
21:33:11 <oklopol> Use of the bond conjunction is often called Currying in honor of Haskell Curry.
21:33:26 <ehird> Haskell Curry was a rabbit
21:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: (m&v) y = m v y
21:33:53 <ehird> it's partial application
21:34:00 <ehird> but non-functional programmers often call partial application currying
21:34:10 <ehird> even though currying is just making al lfunctions one-argument, which SUPPORTS partial application inherently
21:34:18 <ehird> but the uncouth masses do not realise this, oh no
21:34:20 <oklopol> oh lol the other meaning of &
21:35:04 <oklopol> i can see how partial application is kinda currying, but & is also a synonym for @
21:36:48 <ehird> oklopol: i don't think @ = &
21:37:00 <ehird> at least, the docs don't mention it
21:37:41 <oklopol> used with two functions, it's the same thing
21:38:13 <oklopol> well i dunno about ranks, @ forces same rank, i don't know what & does with it
21:38:35 <ehird> oklopol: you mean jetails
21:38:42 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:38:57 <ehird> "The closest approach to Uranus occurred on January 24, 1986,"
21:38:59 <oerjan> those poor ailing jets
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22:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, would you consider it insane designing your own initramfs from scratch?
22:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it's like LFS... but even better
22:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: you know, I think the university might want you to do other things than constantly rewrite your computer
22:02:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I plan to do this before...
22:02:32 <ehird> Yes, until it needs changing.
22:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, still I can do it in a VM just for fun, can't I?
22:03:04 <ehird> Well, yes. I mean, I don't think it's physically impossible or anything.
22:04:12 <AnMaster> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Initramfs <-- I love you gentoo wiki
22:04:39 <AnMaster> yes gentoo has a tool if you don't want to mess with kernel. called gen-kernel or something like that
22:04:40 -!- coppro has joined.
22:04:56 <AnMaster> iirc there is even another way to create an initramfs if you want to
22:08:17 <pikhq> Genkernel is pretty awesome.
22:08:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it? I avoid initramfs whenever I can
22:08:42 <pikhq> (though I still have it do menuconfig, it creates really nice initramfs's)
22:08:48 <AnMaster> I much prefer having exactly the drivers I need!
22:08:59 <pikhq> I've got root on LVM.
22:09:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that is what I'm going for on the laptop, thus I'm checking this out
22:09:29 <ehird> GregorR: did you install ksplice?
22:09:57 <AnMaster> the initramfs's (argh, "initrds" is so much simpler to say!) created by the arch linux system for doing that tends to be rather bloated
22:10:11 <ehird> AnMaster: initramfses
22:10:12 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:10:15 <AnMaster> and creating a minimal one should be trivial...
22:10:22 <AnMaster> the drivers will be in kernel anyway
22:10:24 <ehird> initramfs's doesn't make sense, and it would be initramfs' anyway
22:10:27 <AnMaster> since I always do custom kernel
22:10:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the initramfses' cars
22:10:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: genkernel can be configured not to have any modules in the initramfs.
22:10:56 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, that's valid
22:11:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm NOT going to do gentoo on the laptop
22:11:05 <ehird> initramfs's didn't make sense in THAT CONTEXT
22:11:11 <pikhq> So, all it has then is busybox and LVM and such.
22:11:33 <ehird> Y'know, if I got a laptop for a utilitarian purpose, I'd probably just stick stock Ubuntu on it.
22:11:37 <ehird> Y'all crazy fuckers.
22:11:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, mine will have busybox and lvm.static I guess. no need for cryptsetup since that is for /home only
22:11:59 <pikhq> If I've got a system I don't want to fuck with much, I stick Debian on it.
22:12:22 <ehird> yeah, i'd just pick ubuntu cuz the install's quicker/easier and the gui integration is nicer
22:12:29 <ehird> fucking with initramfs?
22:12:45 <pikhq> ehird: I don't fuck with initramfs, though.
22:12:47 <AnMaster> since lvm creates dynamic devices
22:12:52 <AnMaster> won't I need some replacement for udev?
22:12:54 <ehird> pikhq: you're san*er* then :P
22:12:58 <AnMaster> like the mdev thingy in busybox?
22:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: why not use udev
22:13:06 <pikhq> I just happen to know that genkernel lets you configure how it makes the initramfs if needed.
22:13:14 <AnMaster> ehird, on a initramfs? You must be insane
22:13:37 <ehird> (AnMaster: *an, that is)
22:14:22 <AnMaster> on a initramfs you don't want much
22:14:24 <pikhq> ehird: I only run Gentoo on my desktop because I want to fiddle with some things. If it weren't for that, I'd be running Debian.
22:14:28 <ehird> i don't even know what you're doing but it's probably not even needed since i don't see any other distro having a problem with it
22:14:36 <ehird> pikhq: hey now, debian's pretty fiddleable
22:14:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't even know what or why you're doing whatever it is your doing
22:15:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I could use the initramfs generation script from arch linux. But it generates very slow booting initramfses
22:15:31 <AnMaster> 30 seconds vs. 14 seconds booting time?
22:15:35 <pikhq> But anyways, yeah. There's no freaking sense in making a custom initramfs when a normal one would work just fine.
22:15:37 <ehird> nobody turns off laptops
22:15:44 <ehird> you close the top, which suspends to ram and then disk
22:16:02 <ehird> y'know, so that it takes 5-10 seconds to sit down and use as opposed to 30
22:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: windows, ubuntu and os x do it by default
22:16:29 <ehird> hybrid S2 suspend magic thingy #555// initram
22:17:10 <ehird> "suspend on close laptop gentoo"
22:17:15 <ehird> (because gentoo is the most popular DIY distro)
22:17:18 <ehird> (you'll get the best results)
22:17:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is easy... What I meant was... how do you do the "magic change to disk suspending some minutes later"
22:17:46 <ehird> AnMaster: it's part of the suspend/resume suite thing
22:17:52 <ehird> ram, disk and hybrid
22:17:54 <ehird> you just do hybrid
22:17:59 <ehird> it stays on until it persists it all to ram
22:18:04 <ehird> then turns off completely
22:18:14 <ehird> it doesn't do a total shutdown
22:18:18 <ehird> it goes right back in when you open it up
22:18:20 <ehird> but it uses 0 power
22:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: urgh, it's s2_suspend -hybrid or something
22:18:36 <pikhq> ehird: Right, it suspends to swap.
22:18:41 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the point of suspend to disk that it is total shutdown? I used suspend to disk on desktops...
22:18:42 <ehird> from the same thing that does suspend/resumes normally
22:18:49 <ehird> but it doesn't go back to the bios
22:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and I even unplugged the computer in between
22:18:59 <ehird> i don't know what it does, but it does totally turn off
22:19:06 <ehird> it's just that when you start it up again, magic happens
22:19:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did. Just BIOS didn't show the usual booting screen
22:19:09 <ehird> and you go straight back to the OS
22:19:19 <ehird> AnMaster: well, it didn't load the kernel or anything either afaik
22:19:22 <ehird> because it takes like 5 seconds total
22:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, according to this: http://www.gentoo.org/images/energy-budget.png we should go back to using lamps and switches to poke the registers...
22:20:28 <ehird> AnMaster: no, we should just use OLEDs
22:20:45 <AnMaster> right. What about their lifetime though?
22:20:52 <ehird> they last longer than LCDs.
22:20:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, it doesn't matter, really
22:21:04 <ehird> laptops are the biggest computer market
22:21:06 <AnMaster> *waits for it to become common in laptops*
22:21:08 <ehird> and the standard laptop replace time is 2-3 years
22:21:22 <AnMaster> ehird, not mine. I'm not going to replace it that quickly
22:21:22 <ehird> anyway, <3 OLEDs. black is really black, awesome colours, excellent backlight and tiny power usag
22:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, black is really black <--- didn't you say constrast didn't matter that much?
22:21:58 <ehird> but actual black on current displays
22:22:01 <ehird> still has a bit of backlight
22:22:13 <ehird> (also, not "that much"; at all. it doesn't matter one jot because you can't get displays low enough to matter)
22:22:23 <ehird> but yeah, with OLEDs, black truly has no light
22:22:30 <ehird> and also, colours can still be improved with the backlight
22:22:35 <ehird> which OLEDs, of course, do
22:22:41 <ehird> because there's no "backlight"
22:22:57 <ehird> oh, and of course you can make bendable OLED displays, transparent OLED displays and they're all super, super light
22:23:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how bendable? As in folding it?
22:23:40 <AnMaster> and putting something heavy on top of the fold?
22:23:42 <ehird> well, it won't stay folded, probably
22:23:50 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, unlikely
22:23:54 <ehird> but you can take two ends and pinch them together
22:23:57 <ehird> and hold it like that indefinitely
22:24:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and flattern out the fold?
22:24:18 <ehird> well, if you get it really flat the bit at the bend will probably fuck up
22:24:25 <ehird> and any great weight is probably gonna damage it
22:24:31 <ehird> but they're durable
22:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can't store them folded easily
22:24:44 <AnMaster> what is the point of making them fold then!
22:24:57 <ehird> screens that surround a whole room
22:25:05 <AnMaster> but what is wrong with HUD for visors?
22:25:18 <AnMaster> it is what is used in modern fighter pilot helmets for example
22:25:24 <ehird> AnMaster: HUDs just do one-colour vector graphics
22:25:27 <ehird> that's LAAAAAAAAAME
22:25:38 <ehird> you could display movies, overlay full-colour photographs, ... with a bendable, transparent OLED visor
22:25:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you can see through though. Which is good for the application
22:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: there are transparent OLEDs
22:25:47 <AnMaster> vector graphics *displays* rocks
22:25:50 <ehird> and there are transparent ones that are also bendable
22:26:01 <ehird> (the colour isn't too good on them but that can be improved)
22:26:03 <ehird> (they're at trade-show level atm)
22:26:09 <AnMaster> ehird, assuming they really can draw smooth diagonal lines
22:27:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are two colour HUDs. Like a different colour for some of the graphics... I have seen it. Forgot what aircraft.
22:27:55 <AnMaster> ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display
22:28:17 <ehird> wearable computing shit has stuff like that
22:28:22 <AnMaster> HUD are split into 3 generations reflecting the technology used to generate the images.
22:28:22 <AnMaster> First Generation - Use a CRT to generate an image on a phospher screen, these had the disadvantage of fading with time as the phospher burns out. These systems still make up the majority of HUDs in operation today
22:28:22 <AnMaster> Second Generation - Use solid state light sources LED or similar which is modulated by a LCD screen to display an image. This removes the fading with time and also the high voltages that were required for first generation systems. These systems are on commerical aircraft.
22:28:23 <ehird> but OLEDs are stil lso much cooler, dammit
22:28:40 <AnMaster> Third Generation - Use optical waveguides to produce an image directly in the combiner rather than use a projection system.
22:28:42 <ehird> i thought hud = heads up display
22:28:59 <ehird> helmet mounted display
22:29:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation
22:29:04 <ehird> two different articles
22:29:17 <ehird> HUD = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display
22:29:28 <AnMaster> ehird, YES THAT IS WHAT I SAID
22:29:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display#Generation
22:29:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, this is still very very very cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_display
22:29:50 <AnMaster> I mentioned two different articles
22:29:53 <ehird> it sure is fun watching you get worked up
22:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is sure tragic watching you fail to read
22:30:32 <AnMaster> and even fail to accept that once I pointed out I wasn't quoting the same thing any more
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23:18:04 <ehird> http://imgur.com/900rW.png
23:18:20 <ehird> False dichotomy 2: electric boogaloo!
23:19:00 <GregorR> I especially like how that implies that "I don't like him" is grounds for impeachment :P
23:20:46 <pikhq> History shows that only blowjobs are grounds for impeachment.
23:21:00 <pikhq> And not crimes against humanity.
23:21:09 <ehird> I'll impeach your blowjob.
23:21:11 <ehird> If you don't know what I mean.
23:21:38 <pikhq> Or violations of treaties. Or blatant violations of the Constitution.
23:21:59 <oklopol> always great to finish a 6-page article after about 10 hours of reading.
23:22:03 <ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language!
23:22:27 <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:24:58 <GregorR> `addquote <ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:24:59 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
23:25:28 <ehird> aka Bush oratory videos.
23:31:51 <ehird> Anyway, this was mentioned a while ago in here, but
23:32:09 <ehird> No Person except (a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States), at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.
23:32:34 <ehird> Nobody born in America since the ratification of the Constitution has been legally elected president.
23:32:38 <ehird> Wake up sheeple :-P
23:34:32 <ehird> [[While descriptivists and other such laissez-faire linguists are content to allow the misconception to fall into the vernacular, it cannot be denied that logic and philosophy stand to lose an important conceptual label should the meaning of BTQ become diluted to the point that we must constantly distinguish between the traditional usage and the erroneous "modern" usage. This is why we fight.]]
23:34:35 <ehird> ↑ You can tell they're pretentious assholes from one paragraph!
23:35:10 <oklopol> it's barbeque but you also have tea
23:35:17 <ehird> http://begthequestion.info/; response telling them to shut the living fuck up: http://severinghaus.org/static/beg/
23:35:28 <ehird> oklopol: that sounds amazing
23:36:03 <ehird> oklopol: like, an #esoteric BTQ?
23:36:16 <ehird> holy shit, you've discovered the only way an #esoteric meetup could possibly work:
23:36:18 <ehird> with bacon and tea
23:36:27 -!- GregorR has changed nick to LaissezFaireLing.
23:36:40 <ehird> Gregor is laissezfaireling... in bed.
23:37:11 <ehird> So who in here likes (a) barbeqae and (b) tea?
23:37:18 -!- LaissezFaireLing has changed nick to write.
23:37:20 <ehird> Answers on a postcard^W^Hn IRC message.
23:37:31 <write> I like barbeque but not tea.
23:38:02 <ehird> write: (1, "Hello, world!\n", 14);
23:38:05 <ehird> Also, why on earth don't you like tea.
23:38:33 <write> Because, like coffee, beer, wine and virtually all other beverages, it tastes like bitter water to me?
23:39:02 <write> I drink water and soda. And soda water.
23:39:03 <oklopol> FireFly: write's tongue is retarded
23:39:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> with bacon and tea <-- no no. You forgot the garlic
23:39:11 <write> oklopol: Actually it's my nose.
23:39:13 <ehird> AnMaster: just put garlic on the bacon. anyway you're not invited :P
23:39:30 <oklopol> write: oh? i don't really have any sense of smell either
23:39:35 <FireFly> Ah, at first I thought you meant tounge, as in... speach
23:39:48 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you're not, because it'd end in physical violence
23:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you're super-not-invited!
23:40:10 <AnMaster> ehird, duh. Who cares about you :P
23:40:12 <write> Can we make bacon tea?
23:40:14 <ehird> The tea is uncompromisable. Isn't that right oklopol.
23:40:18 <oklopol> usually when someone farts in the room, i virtually have to stick my nose up their butt before i can smell it
23:40:26 <ehird> oklopol: I don't think you should do that
23:40:32 <write> oklopol: ... not recommended.
23:40:37 <ehird> write: Ooh... you could pour freshly-made tea over bacon while it's sizzling.
23:40:43 <ehird> Tea-flavoured bacon!
23:40:55 <write> ehird: I was thinking you put freshly-cooked bacon in water and boil it :P
23:41:05 <ehird> write: That'd just taste like broth or something.
23:41:13 <FireFly> Teacon, a convention about tea?
23:41:22 <ehird> oklopol: Is that when you masturbate into tea and then interrogate it?
23:41:44 <ehird> Teacon is pronounced like a Jamaican would say "taken".
23:41:52 <oklopol> no that's the afterparty for.. well augur
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23:41:56 <ehird> Te from tea, acon from bacon.
23:42:10 <write> oklopol: What, you have to be gay to masturbate into tea?
23:42:20 <ehird> (Also, "beercan" is pronounced like a Jamaican would pronounce "bacon".)
23:42:41 <write> ehird: YOUR JAMAICANS ARE WEIRD
23:43:09 <ehird> Anyway, we should totally do the BTQ.
23:43:09 <ehird> ...like, not in a sexual sense.
23:43:10 <oklopol> write: you probably have to be something other than gay to enjoy masturbating in tea, actually
23:43:15 <ehird> In a doing-of-creation-god-you-know-like-genesis ... thingy. Sense.
23:43:21 <oklopol> if someone knows the latin for tea, tell me what the fetish is called
23:47:25 <ehird> actually nevermind
23:47:36 <HackEgo> tea \ 1655, earlier chaa (1598, from Port. cha), from Malay teh and directly from Chinese (Amoy dialect) t'e, in Mandarin ch'a. The distribution of the different forms of the word reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The modern Eng. form, along with Fr. the, Sp. te, Ger. Tee, etc., derive via Du. thee from the Amoy
23:47:53 <write> I'm betting Latin for tea was "oh shit we haven't discovered tea yet"
23:48:05 <HackEgo> food \ O.E. foda, from P.Gmc. *fodon (cf. Goth. fodeins), from Gmc. root *fod-, equivalent of PIE *pa-/*pi- "to tend, keep, pasture, to protect, to guard, to feed" (cf. Gk. pateisthai "to feed;" L. pabulum "food, fodder," panis "bread," pasci "to feed," pascare "to graze, pasture, feed," pastor "shepherd," lit. "feeder;"
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23:59:54 <pikhq> Delicious gravy is delicious.