00:10:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:21:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:30:13 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:30:23 what's new 00:39:29 -!- comex has changed nick to c_. 00:39:58 well, see you in a few months :) 00:40:12 or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again 00:40:14 -> 00:40:19 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 00:41:18 huh 00:41:25 what sort of issue is oklopol having? 00:43:52 oklopol! :o 00:43:58 i havent seen oklopol around in ages 00:44:00 and now hes gone :( 00:54:03 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:55:29 -!- jix has joined. 00:59:18 I am seeing the funniest behavior from udev. 00:59:37 I was unaware that a joystick should be on /dev/input/js0 yet feeding into /dev/mice. 00:59:48 Erm. 00:59:52 /dev/input/mice 01:06:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:24:29 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 01:28:09 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:29:22 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 01:31:29 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:32:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 01:42:05 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:42:50 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 01:52:31 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit ("ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"). 03:09:54 -!- Co-Run has changed nick to Corun. 03:18:36 wow 03:18:44 why would Xorg be using 1.2 gb ram? 03:21:24 That includes your video RAM. 03:21:50 So, if you've got a 1GB video card, that's easy. 03:21:58 what actually goes in video ram? 03:23:18 Framebuffer, textures, 3D polygons, shader code, temporary buffers that haven't been blitted into the framebuffer, video that the video card is helping render... 03:26:48 Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'. 03:36:43 * augur steaks pikhq sense of smell 03:38:11 anosmia? 03:38:17 inability to smell. 03:38:25 oh 03:38:30 that sounds unhappy 03:38:32 a-nose-mia 03:38:42 blend of greek, english, and italian 03:38:46 a- being "without" 03:38:50 and "mia" being "my" 03:38:54 "without my nose" 03:39:38 It's totally all Greek. 03:39:50 shut up warrigal 03:39:53 * augur beats warrigal 03:40:11 who's the linguist here, you? 03:40:13 or ME? 03:40:14 thats right. 03:40:15 ME. 03:40:35 * pikhq wonders where psygnis is. 03:40:41 <<< right here? 03:40:55 Alas. 03:41:01 STOP CHANGING NICKNAMES. 03:41:09 i only changed it once, fucker 03:41:10 :| 03:41:19 I AM NOT GREGOR 03:41:21 -!- augur has changed nick to who. 03:41:22 -!- who has changed nick to what. 03:41:31 * coppro where 03:41:36 -!- coppro has changed nick to when. 03:41:46 -!- what has changed nick to how. 03:41:51 -!- how has changed nick to augur. 03:42:11 -!- when has changed nick to coppro. 03:42:13 tho if i were really being gregor i'd be all like 03:42:17 SMALLTALK 03:42:18 SCHEME 03:42:20 FORTRAN 03:42:22 ALGOL 03:42:43 ἀνὀσμή 03:42:44 anosme 03:42:59 Not sure what's up with the -ia. 03:43:03 oh my god Warrigal go buy yourself a sense of humor 03:45:05 Sorry, but I simply have no idea where I can do that. 03:46:35 augur: And C. 03:46:42 oh yes right 03:46:43 soz 03:51:52 i need some good coding music 03:52:01 plz to be givink? 03:52:11 Katamari Fortissimo Damacy. 03:52:23 does not compute 03:52:42 The Katamari Damacy soundtrack. 03:52:51 It's called Katamari Fortissimo Damacy. 03:53:38 do you have anything on the interblogs? :P 03:56:26 Gregor Richard's Opuses (Opi?) 03:57:31 http://codu.org/music.php 03:59:20 nuu 04:33:24 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 04:33:25 AMAZING 04:38:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:38:15 morning 04:39:45 i'm not a programmer 04:40:41 Evening. 04:40:41 I am. 04:41:30 i used to be 04:41:48 i think at some point i turned into a mathematician. 04:42:55 programming just seems trivial... hacking is still fun, and coding is okay, but i can't program. 04:43:53 by trivial i don't mean easy 04:43:58 You need to stop doing trivial things. 04:43:58 i'm not sure what i mean 04:44:04 You mean trivial. 04:44:27 can you explain to me why it's trivial even though it's occasionally challenging? 04:44:51 Because you're doing something that's already been done, of course. ;) 04:45:03 oklopol! :o 04:45:26 i'm writing a textbox atm, making a pretty correspondence between logical and physical lines is surprisingly difficult. 04:45:40 and still it feels like i'm not actually solving a problem, just writing down trivialities 04:45:43 logical and physical lines? 04:45:50 well yes 04:45:53 explain. 04:45:59 well you know wrapping. 04:46:10 with tortillas? 04:46:11 wrapping is what physical lines do 04:46:14 wrapping what 04:46:16 logical lines don't wrap 04:46:24 oh, lines of text 04:46:26 ok 04:46:27 yes 04:46:37 now i see. 04:46:42 so what are you griping about now? 04:47:04 err 04:47:11 i guess nothing? 04:47:35 just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer. 04:48:01 oklopol you're an idiot. 04:48:07 but i still want you in me. 04:48:10 i am now? 04:48:17 yes. 04:48:20 how so 04:48:22 I recommend you do something non-trivial. 04:48:34 INVENT something, don't just do something well-known. 04:48:39 just thought some of you might still think i'm a programmer. << thats how 04:48:50 man, i wanna invent something :( 04:48:58 pikhq: i have invented something, this is just something i need to do before i can get to that 04:49:16 * pikhq hands oklopol The Art of Computer Programming 04:49:30 augur: why's that idiotic? 04:49:44 pikhq: i have that, haven't read it yet, what's your point? 04:49:44 IF YOU NEED TO ASK 04:50:05 augur: i don't need to, i want to 04:50:43 pikhq: i'm making this game where you try to guess the code that produces a given 2d fractal, which keeps evolving. 04:50:57 slowly, but faster than you can type the code to draw it 04:50:59 Read it, man. And enjoy your damned MIX. 04:51:59 :) 04:52:09 i'm reading sicp now, finally decided to finish it 04:52:26 sicp is wonderful 04:52:32 also read rwh, probably the most error-ridden book i've ever read 04:52:34 i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3 04:52:47 rwh? 04:52:52 some of the programs are so wrong i simply couldn't continue reading for a while 04:53:04 and one of the example runs actually errors out 04:53:04 ... 04:53:17 and they continue explaining the result even though there isn't one 04:53:21 rwh? 04:53:21 real world haskell 04:53:25 lmfao 04:53:32 haskellfail 04:53:39 but, it was also a very well written book, so kinda evens out. 04:53:58 WELL ATLEAST THERES THAT 04:54:36 :) 04:54:52 I have only described it beautifully, not tried it. 04:55:20 i havent actually read the book, but the videos <3 <<< you told ehird you've read it twice 04:55:29 no, i didnt 04:55:35 when he had his read sicp rant 04:55:36 i told ehird i WATCHED it twice. 04:55:48 i see, sorries then. 04:56:01 youll need to fuck me if you want me to forgive you. 04:56:26 first two chapters of sicp have been a complete waste of time, i should've started at 3, but i just can't read a book partially :< 04:56:50 oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs 04:56:55 rather than just write arbitrary code? 04:57:25 what kind of progs would those be 04:57:39 like building simple constructs from complex ones? 04:57:47 other way around :P 04:57:51 but like 04:57:56 i dont know, say 04:58:00 well the other way around is how programming usually works 04:58:09 given two syntactically and semantically acceptable programs A, B 04:58:37 where A = aXb, B = cXd 04:59:11 where X is some piece of code thats duplicated, and the small letters are other pieces of code that are not duplicated 04:59:57 sorry reverse that :P 05:00:09 A = xay, B = xby 05:00:18 okily 05:00:22 then you can do 05:00:26 sequence(A,B) 05:00:33 to get xaby 05:00:35 and itll construct return xaby 05:00:37 yes... 05:00:38 :P 05:00:52 and that would be the only way you could generate code 05:01:06 no idea what that means, that's just a well-known group automorphism 05:01:16 with one interpretation 05:01:19 take some finite number of core grammatical pieces of code and compose them together in some restricted fashion 05:01:48 well i guess i might know where you're going with this 05:01:53 might want some kinda example tho 05:02:02 i dont know quite how itd look, to be honest 05:02:09 im just groping at ideas here, you know 05:02:10 but 05:02:36 im interested in what sorts of things you could get with that 05:03:21 where absolutely every valid program is either a primitive program, or is composed of other valid programs 05:03:31 in some fashion like that 05:04:37 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 05:04:40 MY SOUL! 05:05:01 didnt i link that already? 05:05:03 yes 05:05:04 yes i did 05:05:31 Hmm. 05:05:34 Still terrible. 05:05:42 indeed 05:06:18 O(n^18) 05:06:36 what 05:06:38 no its not 05:06:43 its O(n) 05:06:59 on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over. 05:07:22 O(n^18) is a superset of O(n). 05:07:33 -!- Patashu has joined. 05:07:37 take that bitch. 05:07:49 except noone cares 05:08:03 its O(n*o*p*q*r*s*t*u*v*w*x*y*z*aa*ab*ac*ad*LPVAlgorithmIterationBounds) 05:08:19 this is correct. 05:08:24 ? 05:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 05:08:47 augh 05:08:54 urh? 05:09:00 errrr 05:09:02 actually 05:09:13 EIGHTEEN DIMENSIONS 05:10:05 well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components. 05:10:07 *component 05:10:20 it's not thank goodness 05:10:27 assumed it was like for a in ...: for b in a: for c in b: ... 05:10:28 but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space 05:10:33 yeah 05:11:30 and 05:11:33 what the hell IS it doing 05:17:53 on the number of actual lowest level elements it needs to iterate over. <<< kinda like quicksort is O(n) on the number of comparisons it needs to do 05:18:08 lol 05:18:13 what 05:18:24 it needs to do exactly as many as it needs to do 05:18:24 God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls. 05:18:39 oklopol: right, which is the number of lowest level elements. :P 05:18:39 i'm pretty sure most are singletons 05:19:00 pikhq: no it wouldnt 05:19:15 Erm. Actually. 05:19:22 augur: i'm just saying O(n^18) is a better way to describe that than O(n), because there are 18 unknowns, and you iterate over their cartesian product 05:19:31 If it's all singleton lists, 1^18. :P 05:19:55 but the number of unknowns is irrelevant to the issue here, oklopol 05:20:09 the only thing that matters is the number of lowest level views that its accessing 05:20:28 the fact that the views are at the bottom of a deep view hierarchy is irrelevant to that fact. 05:20:56 which is determined by the product of the amounts of values for the 18 lists 05:21:26 yes, this is true 05:21:36 but thats not the same as O(n^18) 05:22:00 let me put it this way 05:22:08 lets construct a smaller fictional model 05:22:12 where its just three loops deep 05:22:23 O(n) on largest list 05:22:28 err 05:22:30 this should be O(n^3) by your reasoning 05:22:32 O(n^18) 05:22:36 so what is n counting? 05:22:44 size of largest list 05:22:51 obviously 05:23:02 or sum of sizes 05:23:16 ok, so lets think about this for a second 05:23:29 k 05:23:50 what you're saying is 05:24:13 ok. i see where you're coming from. 05:24:38 n is the size of input, that's what it usually is. 05:24:59 but the inputs to the function at the bottom are the total number of items at the bottom 05:25:09 what do you mean at the bottom 05:25:13 of this view hierarchy 05:25:20 what fucking hierarchy 05:25:26 did you look at the code? 05:25:31 yeah, did you 05:25:38 it's enumerating a cartesian product 05:25:41 not a hierarchy 05:25:42 no 05:26:08 no? 05:26:24 well, yes, it is, ok. :P 05:26:36 Obviously, the code is O(n*o*p). 05:26:41 but the point is 05:26:44 And in no fucking way is it linear. 05:26:46 well nothing really, i just read it, and realized it wasn't just 18 subparts of the same components. <<< me realizing just that 05:27:15 but it does something for every point in this 18 dimensional space <<< Patashu saying it in english. 05:27:33 enumerating a cartesian product is not "worst case" O(m^n) where m is the size of the largest space being crossed 05:27:59 i'm not sure what you mean 05:28:01 its worst case O(m^n) only in the case where all of the spaces are of size m 05:28:50 i don't see how that's relevant, given no extra information about the sizes. 05:29:01 you could just as well assume we're just sorting sorted lists 05:29:01 its PRECISELY (best, worst, and average) O(n) where n is the total number of tuples in the final product, where n = n0*n1*...*ni 05:29:10 no oklopol, you couldnt 05:29:26 I prefer saying O(abcdefghijklmnopqr). 05:30:02 because the description i gave of the scenario perfectly describes the actual amount of time the algorithm will take in relation to easily determinable and relevant factors 05:30:26 while your example of quicksort being O(n) over the number of compares is not easily determinable nor is it relevant 05:30:47 true. 05:30:55 given the (KNOWN) sizes of all the sets involved, its trivial to calculate before the operation how long itll take 05:31:06 the same cannot be said about the quicksort algorithm 05:31:21 when O(n) over the number of compares. 05:31:23 all i'm saying is it's theta(n^18) on sum of sizes. 05:32:11 its only theta(n^18) because you're constructing an enormous maximum upper bound curve thats completely unnecessary 05:32:18 its theta(infinity) too by that very same logic 05:32:25 ... 05:32:29 no it's not 05:32:32 yes, it is 05:32:39 because theta(n^18) is a subset of theta(infinity) 05:32:42 i'm getting kinda tired of this 05:32:44 and no it's not 05:32:48 yes, it is. 05:32:50 k 05:33:00 umm 05:33:15 let me think a sec, i've actually kinda stopped thinking 05:33:21 i do that when i get annoyed with you 05:33:26 yeah it's a subset 05:33:41 wait no it's not 05:33:46 your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me 05:33:50 its that you never start thinking. 05:34:04 it's not not omega(infinity) 05:34:06 *not 05:34:12 so it can't be theta 05:34:19 THE POINT IS OKLOPOL 05:34:34 saying its O(n^18) is meaningless. 05:34:39 COMPUTER SCIENCE IS NP-HARD. 05:34:57 it's not meaningless, and i'm saying theta, not ordo 05:35:07 there is precisely one case where it will ever actually be O(n^18), and that same case is captured in the more useful description i gave. 05:35:29 Then type \theta? 05:35:46 won't render right in here 05:35:48 the algorithm is EXACTLY, O(n) over the number of tuples in the final cross product. 05:36:10 you guys are such nerds, just saying 05:36:19 i should probably stop talking to augur on non-private medias, he's such an idiot 05:36:36 right, because that makes you correct, oklopol 05:36:43 oh wait, it doesnt. 05:36:49 here, that is, usually nice on skype. 05:37:02 thats because on skype you dont say stupid shit 05:37:37 so it's O(n) 05:37:39 where n is something else 05:37:41 to say that this algorithm is O(n^18) over the maximum size of the tuples is an overstatement to say the least. 05:37:44 that isn't the size of the input data 05:38:04 I don't think that's how O() works 05:38:26 but it IS the size of the input data. 05:38:33 you have some number of sets 05:38:48 you just product over their sizes and thats the amount of time its going to take. 05:38:48 Patashu: he's basically saying you shouldn't tell the algo's complexity on the size of input, because it's better described by the separate variables given. which is perfectly true. 05:39:03 no, oklopol, you're not going by the size of inputs either 05:39:07 you're doing the exact same thing i am 05:39:27 but say you had a thousand of those lists, i would definitely prefer O(n^1000) 05:39:36 but you're not sending it a complete list of tuples 05:39:38 except you're assume that to accurately describe the worst case scenario, you have to assume all the lists are the same size 05:39:40 you're sending it separate lists 05:39:41 which is false. 05:39:42 to O(variable1*variable2*...*variable1000) 05:39:43 -IT- makes the tuples 05:39:44 right? 05:39:44 you do not need to assume that. 05:40:04 yes, it makes tuples. it makes a completely predictable number of tuples. 05:40:14 talking to me or augur? 05:40:24 oklopol is just assuming that number is not predictable, and therefore hes assuming the number is larger than it really is 05:40:39 if i give you the lists [1] [2] [3,4,5,6,7,8] 05:40:47 you know precisely how long itll take to construct the cross product 05:40:57 you do not need to assume that all three lists are 6 elements long 05:41:04 and that that is the WORST CASE scenario for this algorithm 05:41:11 because you know precisely how long itll take 05:43:24 so has anyone proved freecell np-complete 05:43:33 whats freecell 05:43:38 i did spider solitaire a few days ago 05:44:38 (with decks of any size & any number of stacks) 05:45:35 oklopol: In the case of a thousand-dimensional space, I would prefer to say O(n0*n1*...*n999*n1000) 05:46:09 hmm, me too, probably. 05:46:16 concession accepted. 05:46:19 so scratch that 05:47:28 GregorR: Just listening to Opus 10 for the first time. Nice work. 05:47:46 what 05:47:48 's that 05:48:00 GregorR's work? 05:48:03 Gregor's 10th Opus. 05:48:06 Yes. 05:48:11 right. do link 05:48:24 http://codu.org/music.php 05:48:30 Has 5-10 and a few other pieces. 05:48:44 Not listened to the 9th, since I don't happen to have a MIDI setup working. 05:48:50 i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff 05:49:28 was hoping played on actual piano 05:49:35 -!- Co-Run has joined. 05:49:49 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:50:09 All but Opus 9 are him playing on the piano. 05:50:29 i've always wanted to hear GregorR's stuff // it's not like it's hidden :P 05:51:05 i was gonna say "well have you heard my unhidden stuff", then realized you probably haven't always wanted to hear my stuff :) 05:51:20 i don't look for stuff 05:54:04 -!- immibis has joined. 05:54:52 Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9? 05:54:52 * immibis * myndzi myndzifmyndzif immibisf immibis myndzifimmibisf immibisfmyndzif 05:55:09 what does "do something with" mean? 05:55:13 what's opus 9? 05:55:22 Make an Ogg, really. 05:55:37 immibis: http://codu.org/music.php 05:55:38 like play it 05:55:40 or? 05:55:53 Make an Ogg of it playing. 05:56:08 what's the trio 05:56:15 i can't open stuff atm 05:56:33 Dunno. I haven't heard it, since I cannot has MIDI. 05:57:27 Heck, playing it would be nice, too... 05:57:45 violin, cello, viola 05:58:40 don't feel like reading it 05:58:49 i'll listen when i can 05:59:32 pikhq: I have good MIDI now (not when I made that ogg), but its cello sucks a LOT >_< 06:00:31 GregorR: Hmm.; 06:00:44 Note, you don't have an Ogg of it posted. :P 06:01:54 WFBBQ? 06:01:56 *WTFBBQ 06:02:03 Why no. 06:02:05 No I do not :P 06:02:08 WTFBBQ == ??????? 06:03:22 * pikhq likes Color Matcher. 06:03:49 what the fuck barbecue 06:04:04 Everybody likes color matcher. 06:04:10 BY LAW 06:04:13 whats color matcher 06:04:14 :D 06:04:48 http://codu.org/colormatch/ 06:04:50 http://codu.org/colormatch/ 06:05:13 oh right that 06:05:28 :P 06:05:33 "Oh yeah that shit who cares" 06:06:19 i care somewhat 06:06:28 quite little though 06:06:32 There's a lot of cool stuff on codu.org 06:07:04 yeah GregorR is so awesoe 06:07:06 *awesome 06:07:22 i no rite 06:07:38 GregorR: Shaddup, you're not as awesome as Gregor. 06:07:39 :P 06:07:45 yes u rite, cuz you awesome! 06:08:47 Holy fuck, you've done more with JSMIPS. 06:08:52 * pikhq brain break 06:19:51 Oh hooooooooooly fuuuuuuuuuuuuck 06:20:59 wtf? a javascript mips emulator? 06:21:22 * oklopol licks mips 06:21:53 immibis: A /general-purpose/ JS MIPS emulator :P 06:34:41 concession accepted. <<< no i just ignored you 06:34:55 wut 06:35:14 just responding to that 06:35:21 theres nothing to respond to 06:35:23 hence "wut" 06:35:25 oh 06:35:37 i thought you were implying i admitted i had been wrong 06:35:48 you did, darlin. 06:35:52 no i didn't 06:35:56 or did i? 06:35:57 not in so many words 06:35:58 but you did. 06:36:32 you admitted my description was preferable for very large cross products. 06:37:06 which effectively means that where the actual growth rate is concerned, you prefer my version 06:37:20 and since big-o notation is precisely for actual growth rate, you prefer my version period. 06:37:23 i admitted the product thing was preferable from the beginning, just said O(n) was retarded, and that O(n^18) is in no way a stretch, just how you'd express it with one variable. 06:37:25 thus, concession accepted. 06:37:49 but O(n^18) is NOT how you'd express it with one variable 06:38:03 sure is, if n is the size of input, it's O(n^18) 06:38:16 if you really want to express it strictly with one variable, O(sum[0,n](|X[n]|)) 06:38:18 and you can't get a smaller ordo 06:38:24 what 06:38:34 sorry, that should be product not sum** 06:39:13 yours is how you'd express it given the sizes separately 06:39:19 mine is for input size n 06:39:23 no, its not 06:39:27 then what is? 06:39:49 yours is exactly the same as mine, only you're forcing all the sets to be the same size 06:39:55 to make some stupid "worst case" analysis 06:39:57 given a list of lists, with n elements taken together, it's O(n^18) 06:40:04 it's not forcing them to be the same size 06:40:06 which is completely unnecessary. 06:40:10 yes it is, oklopol 06:40:41 you're assuming you have 18 lists, each of size n 06:40:45 no 06:40:47 yes? 06:40:59 then what is n 06:41:14 i'm assuming i have 18 lists, with n elements taken together 06:41:21 that's the size. 06:41:25 number of elements 06:41:29 what does "n elements taken together" mean 06:41:31 what else could n be 06:41:33 you guys still talking about this 06:41:34 haha 06:41:45 no, oklopol is still being stupid 06:41:45 like, if all are size 1, then n would be 18 06:41:51 what 06:41:53 you guys still talking about this < so this is correct 06:41:55 Patashu: i had to take a break to calm down 06:41:59 augur: what else could n be? 06:41:59 n is the total number of elements in the union over the sets? 06:42:03 augur: yes 06:42:05 are you insane? 06:42:06 naturally 06:42:08 ok oklopol 06:42:10 lets think about this 06:42:16 suppose we have THREE lists instead of 18 06:42:20 okay 06:42:26 each having 3 elements 06:42:33 yeah 06:42:33 its O(n^3) 06:42:50 well, lets say two elements, to avoid power-multiple confusion 06:43:09 so in your version it should take 2^3 = 8 steps 06:43:31 sorry 06:43:33 :P 06:43:37 what's the better ordo then? 06:43:43 it should take 6^3 steps 06:43:45 you haven't given me one, just called me an idiot 06:43:53 i did give you one oklopol, you're just blind 06:43:57 but lets continue with this example 06:43:57 where is it? 06:44:03 i haven't seen it 06:44:05 three lists, each with two elements. 06:44:08 ok? 06:44:18 i want the ordo, and i want a proof 06:44:18 so n = 6, exp = 3 06:44:40 so it should be 6^3 or 216 steps 06:44:42 yes? 06:45:06 huh? 06:45:09 HUH 06:45:13 what's your definition of ordo? 06:45:15 im using your fucking equation oklopol 06:45:29 and what's the ordo you said is better than mine 06:45:31 O(n^exp) where n is the size of the union of the sets, and exp is the number of sets 06:45:40 yes, oklopol? 06:45:52 please answer those 06:46:02 we'll get there in a second, oklopol 06:46:05 answer the question first 06:46:14 i'm only interested in examples once i know what you're even trying to say 06:46:43 O(n) over the number of items in the cross product, where n = product[0,|X|](X[i]) 06:46:43 err 06:46:48 NOW. 06:46:50 to continue. 06:47:07 that's not an ordo on the size of input 06:47:19 no, its not, but im not doing order over the size of the input 06:47:25 what is an ordo? 06:47:47 yeah, augur, what's an ordo? 06:48:03 i don't actually know you know, just assume 06:48:29 the order of an algorithm is the growth rate of an algorithm relative to some quantity 06:48:37 and ordo? 06:48:42 "ordo" is oklopols typo. 06:48:47 ok 06:48:52 oh it's not ordo in english 06:48:59 i've been typoing for years then :) 06:49:06 ordo is latin 06:49:14 which means effectively its english 06:49:28 i thought both ordo and order are okay 06:49:35 they might be used in CS, i dont know 06:49:42 getting back to the topic 06:49:49 usually they use O, so i don't know,. 06:49:50 *. 06:50:45 O(n^m) is not worst case. its not even least upper bound. 06:50:50 its just completely wrong. 06:50:53 it's not? 06:50:59 no, oklopol, its not 06:51:03 can you give me a better one? 06:51:07 i already did 06:51:09 jesus christ 06:51:16 yeah for a different n 06:51:19 yes 06:51:21 a different n 06:51:27 because the algorithm is dependent on the n i gave 06:51:34 and has nothing to do with the n's and m's you gave 06:51:50 it's the worst case, (n/3) * (n/3) * (n/3) = n^3 / 27, so clearly it's omega(n^3) 06:51:58 what 06:52:08 that's for an even distribution of the elements 06:52:18 what 06:52:52 except the function does not take n^3 time 06:52:53 i just proved it's theta(n^|elems|) 06:52:58 it doesn't? 06:53:01 then what does it take 06:53:39 the only time it ever takes that amount of time is in precisely that one situation. 06:54:24 that statement means nothing to me 06:54:46 precisely what situation, it's a fucking tight bound 06:54:54 [1], [1], [1], [1], [1] 06:55:23 your description says this should take 5^5 steps. 06:55:33 its n^5 time in your algorithm 06:56:05 but we know its not. its O(n) time over the number of elements in the union, precisely so. 06:56:14 for n/5 elements it takes (n^5 / 5^5) time in the worst case 06:56:19 (elements in the append**) 06:56:26 ... 06:56:30 i mean for n elements 06:56:43 and yet its n not n^5, in the worst case. 06:57:11 what 06:57:21 worst case of having one element in each list? 06:57:23 for set sizes of one, its O(n) 06:57:36 yeah true, kinda like quicksort is O(1) for empty lists 06:58:29 really i don't understand what you're arguing, you don't seem to be saying my math is wrong 06:58:42 no, what im saying is youre measuring on the wrong fucking variables. 06:59:09 because there are precise fits where best-time = worst-time = average-time with the right variables. 06:59:24 and there are tight bounds using just n 06:59:37 constant multiple bounded 06:59:49 for constant amount of variables 06:59:55 well lists 06:59:57 w/e 06:59:58 not at all, yours is merely constant multiple bounded for even distribution 07:00:15 ... 07:00:28 yes, simple cases aren't worst cases 07:00:47 you're right, so we should ignore simple cases and look at all cases. 07:01:25 youre using two variables, and your description gives completely inaccurate predictions of performance for those numbers. 07:01:27 we're talking complexity, it's always about the hardest cases 07:01:40 yes, and yours is NOT the hardest case. 07:01:53 there are harder cases than even distribution? 07:01:54 the hardest case, in a cross product, is the largest possible cross product 07:02:05 in yours? yes. yours predicts it. 07:02:08 which is when you have equal distribution isn't it? 07:02:18 patashu: no. 07:03:15 when its equal over the maximum, yes, sure. and in that precise case his equation is exactly the same as mine, ignoring notational differences. 07:03:40 but his is not worst case for arbitrary n and m 07:03:52 what is then? 07:03:56 its WRONG is what it is 07:03:59 its not anything 07:04:03 what is O(n+m)_ 07:04:04 its nothing 07:04:16 it has nothing to do with the nested loops 07:04:17 at all 07:04:23 neither does yours 07:04:48 the HAPPENSTANCE fact that it can get a SINGLE case correct is irrelevant 07:05:11 for arbitrary n and m, yours is not the worst-case order for the nested loops. 07:05:44 if you have n elements arbitrarily divided in m lists, the cartesian product is O(n^m) 07:05:50 that's all i'm saying 07:05:55 no, its not. 07:06:52 unless by that you mean "O(n^m) is strictly above the order of the cartesian product, but is not fitted at all" 07:07:12 in which case that amounts to saying the cartesian product is O(infinity) 07:07:22 i'm saying it's theta(n^m) 07:07:25 not order 07:07:38 i should probably consistently say so, true. 07:08:29 if you want a tighter bound than a constant multiple, then yeah, just number of elements in the union isn't enough 07:08:39 but then why would we be talking about order 07:09:10 because we're talking about how long it takes to compute the product 07:09:17 which is precisely determined by the size of the product 07:09:18 nothing else 07:10:05 also, hold on while i actually try to plot these graphs just to see if you're correct about it being THETA(n^m) 07:10:18 err k 07:10:58 hardest case is always even distribution, sizes (n/m), ..., (n/m), that is, n^m / m^m, which for a constant m is theta(n^m) 07:11:03 that's the whole proof 07:11:10 i don't see what plotting will prove, but have fun 07:12:19 ok. 07:12:20 so. 07:13:32 lets consider a simple case where m = 2 07:13:41 why? 07:13:43 just to simplify the proof that you're wrong. 07:13:46 oh 07:13:48 okay 07:13:49 i mean 07:14:24 well we can do it otherwise actually, i thin 07:14:34 hold on :P 07:14:58 do you want the proof for the special case of m=2? 07:15:07 i'm sure it's hard to put the numbers in there yourself 07:15:22 oklopol 07:15:30 augur 07:15:51 if you're not going to read what i say, its hard to make snarky comments without making yourself look like a fool. 07:15:54 keep that in mind. 07:16:16 -!- Co-Run has changed nick to Corun. 07:16:33 i just don't see what you're trying to accomplish by finding a counter-example to a proof, but not showing what's wrong with it 07:16:47 im not trying to find a counter example 07:16:59 see this is why you should read what you should read before you speak 07:17:11 i said we could do it generally, not with particular counter examples. 07:17:23 okay, well, go on then 07:18:14 im thinking of how to construct the proof in a way that you will accept. 07:18:53 take your time. 07:19:01 oh i will. i will take my time. 07:19:11 and when im done, you'll be just as wrong. 07:19:12 well not too long 07:19:25 alright 07:20:41 ok, so. 07:21:11 yes, limiting this to two lists for a simple proof. 07:21:28 if your lists are size a and b, respectively 07:21:40 actual time is a*b, precisely. 07:21:52 obviously 07:21:57 your time is theta (a+b)^2 07:22:14 yeah 07:22:16 (a+b)^2 > a*b 07:22:36 sure 07:22:45 but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b 07:23:34 a*b is a simple hyperbolic saddle 07:23:43 a what 07:24:14 wait a sec :) 07:24:45 why should it be less than a*b? 07:24:53 because thats what theta means? 07:25:03 Theta(n) means that its bounded above AND below 07:25:16 i said theta(n^2), which is theta((a+b)^2) 07:25:34 yes. 07:25:49 and a*b is not bounded below by (a+b)^2 07:27:05 except for c = 0, ofcourse. 07:28:12 now, in real terms, since we're ranging over N not R, it might be. im not sure in that space. 07:28:27 but there is no c such that c(a+b)^2 < a*b for all a, b <<< right, of course there isn't, but all we need is for there to be such a worst case for every n that it it is 07:28:31 *there is such a c 07:28:52 oklopol, that is not what theta (a+b)^2 means. 07:30:54 i would also point out that the nested loops version has varying time depending on the sorting of the items. assuming presorting from lowest to highest list size, the algorithm gets a (minor) improvement 07:31:04 no, but it is what theta(n^2) means, the *worst cases* of the algorithm, for input size n, n^2 sandwiches them 07:31:13 oklopol 07:31:16 if a+b = c 07:31:18 then you're wrong 07:31:21 er 07:31:23 a+b = n 07:31:35 because n^2 == (a+b)^2 07:31:51 worst cases for given a and b where a+b=n are different than those for given n 07:32:10 a+b = n in all cases, oklopol. 07:34:05 now, i think i can see what you're trying to do. 07:35:00 and if im right, you're simply abusing the terms worst case. 07:35:03 basically you're not taking worst cases for a given n, if you separate it into a and b such that a+b=n 07:35:15 you're taking the worst case of a given a and b 07:35:18 see, this is where you're abusing the terms worst case. 07:35:38 in your equation, you have these two variables. this is inescapable. 07:35:56 you cannot simply collapse them into one and then ignore the fact that they're two independent variables 07:37:13 so your "worst case" is the worst case curve for the algorithm ignoring the actual equation you used and instead treating it as tho you're not doing a cartesian product 07:37:18 hm 07:38:04 and yes, i agree, in that particular case, you're right that cn^2 is strictly lower than (a*b)^2 07:38:26 but there is also a c where they are equal, i believe. 07:40:04 on that i could be wrong, really 07:40:05 i was going by a definition of omega that for a given n, there is such an input, |input|=n, that T(input)>f(n). 07:40:24 if that is wrong, then in fact i was wrong, and it seems it is wrong. 07:40:52 i dont even know what that definition is saying 07:41:00 Omega means strictly bound below 07:41:19 T(input) means amount of steps, and i should've said T(input)>cf(n) for some c>0 07:41:30 and since your equation, and the function, is two dimension, its false that it is strictly bound below by (a+b)^2 07:41:32 |input| is the size of input 07:44:12 Omega means strictly bound below <<< yeah but does it mean worst case is bound from below, or that simplest case is bound from below? 07:44:13 i thought worst case. 07:44:26 it means the whole thing is bounded. 07:44:51 and what does that mean exactly? that for all inputs, it's bounded from below? 07:44:57 by the function 07:44:59 the whole function. 07:45:13 then i have a different definition. 07:45:25 then your definition is wrong 07:45:46 so... bubblesort doesn't have a theta bound? 07:45:59 because it's O(n) for sorted input 07:46:02 i have no idea. 07:46:07 O(n) is just upper bound. 07:46:11 and O(n^2) otherwise 07:46:27 O(n^2) and omega(n) 07:46:35 no theta 07:46:45 i'm pretty sure that's a stupid definition 07:46:48 but dunno. 07:46:51 uh 07:47:11 hmm 07:47:20 there is no worst case for a cartesian product 07:47:21 probably it's not a stupid definition 07:47:23 nor a best case 07:47:36 theyre all the same. 07:48:06 i mean 07:48:12 the way you're going by worst case there is 07:48:23 given some input of size whatver to be sorted 07:48:37 what is the WORST possible arrangement that is possible? 07:48:56 yeah, isn't that right? 07:49:07 for bubble sort i think it's sorted in reverse order 07:49:12 sure, but theres no way to define that on a cartesian product 07:49:16 anyway i'm acknowledging i'm wrong about omega, and therefore about theta too 07:49:40 because there is NO partition of n elements that will take longer than any other partition of n elements 07:49:53 is there? 07:50:06 no, there might be, sorry :D 07:50:11 the worst case is even distribution 07:50:36 yes. ok. 07:50:41 anyway if i have a fundamental definition wrong (which i still have a hard time believing), i'm not judging you for that error. 07:50:42 :) 07:51:31 then in the worst case, it is theta n^2, yes. 07:52:17 and in that case it is also precisely n^2 07:52:38 which i said earlier. 07:53:41 regardless, it is O(n) time over the number of elements in the cross product 07:54:33 infact, its T(n) 07:55:12 not just in worst case, precisely. 07:55:48 LOL i just realized where the problem probably lies: omega doesn't define whether it's worst case or simplest case, it's just about functions :P 07:55:57 in which case we'd both be right 07:55:59 yes, oklopol. :P 07:57:19 i can't really think on irc, if someone's attacking me. 07:58:11 then you should get out of academia 07:58:20 i can do it irl 07:58:27 maybe, but as we all know, the university is dooms, and irc will supplant it! 07:58:31 i don't know what's so different about irc 07:58:41 its text. you have more time to think. 07:58:44 thinking fucks people up! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:04 maybe! or maybe it's the fact i need to start answering right away, or they might just assume i'm not going to answer. 08:00:10 which doesn't happen irl, because they see me 08:00:18 or that. 08:01:21 usually it turns out i'm right, but i have to leave irc for a few minutes to see why. 08:01:39 "i'm right, but no time to explain why" 08:02:55 ^ what my brain says to me during a heated antidiscussion. 08:03:17 lets just have makeup sex 08:03:29 all this talk is making me weary. 08:03:48 i'm calm again, so i guess i'd prefer reading 08:03:56 aww :( 08:04:00 but makeup sex! 08:04:42 i'm pretty sure you're too far from me for that :) 08:04:46 much surer than usually 08:04:53 since no one knows where i am, not even me 08:05:04 but then you surely might be closer! 08:05:22 hehe, finland :P 08:06:12 the World Champion's from Finland! 08:06:54 finland, yes, but i'm not where i live. 08:07:46 i'm hidden. 08:07:53 why? 08:07:59 are you a wanted criminal? 08:08:05 well i'm not really hidden, i'm just not home. 08:08:13 Hidden oklopol, crouching augur. 08:08:19 wardriving obv 08:08:20 and no, but i thought about telling everyone here i killed a man and went to jail. 08:08:25 yes, crouching in front of hidden oklopol 08:08:32 ill leave the rest to your imaginations. 08:08:46 wardriving? 08:08:53 wardriving. 08:09:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving 08:09:06 Wardriving is the act of searching for Wi-Fi wireless networks by a person in a moving vehicle, using a portable computer or PDA. 08:09:27 oh, that's actually useful 08:09:33 yes 08:09:43 THANK YOU FOR EXPANDING MY HEAD 08:09:46 someone should do a google-maps addon with wifi signal strength 08:09:53 NO PROBLEMS SIR 08:10:17 they should add that into streetview 08:10:21 just to irritate the privacy guys more 08:10:59 lol nah, an overlay would be better 08:11:13 I meant the cars 08:11:15 not the actual software 08:11:21 wat 08:11:29 the cars for streetview 08:11:33 should get wifi strength 08:11:38 what about them 08:11:44 while they take pictures that irritate governments 08:12:00 use full sentences please 08:12:10 your ideas are fragmented and hard to grasp 08:12:58 Yes, because I was hoping that you'd have figured it out by the end of each fragment 08:13:08 Streetview has cars that drive around taking pictures 08:13:17 Those cars should also take wifi strnegth 08:13:21 no, google has cars that drive around 08:13:28 streetview has pictures taken by those cars. 08:13:36 but ok. 08:13:54 do those cars have humans inside 08:13:58 and the maps would display this data like any other google maps overlays 08:13:59 "$ man 3 sleep" -> "No manual entry for sleep in section 3. See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available" -> "$ man 7 undocumented" -> "No manual entry for undocumented in section 7" 08:14:05 oklopol: no, we've imported robot cars from japan 08:14:10 thought so 08:14:34 are robot cars even legal (although you are probably in a different country to me) 08:14:47 indeed you're both in different countries from eahc other 08:14:54 not here, probably not anywhere 08:15:06 well probably somewhere, but anyway. 08:15:38 from what I know, a car is allowed to drive automatically as long as someone is on the drivers seat 08:16:00 that sounds more plausible 08:17:37 the google streetview cars are piloted. 08:18:04 Hello Wonderful Kitty 08:18:07 How are you? 08:18:27 7 08:27:08 \o 08:27:12 /o 08:27:15 \o 08:27:16 lament: what are you 08:27:19 /o 08:27:23 \oo\ 08:27:26 /oo/ 08:27:29 \oo\ 08:27:31 /oo/ 08:27:36 |o | 08:27:42 \o/ 08:27:42 | 08:27:42 >\ 08:27:56 >\ 08:27:58 >\ 08:28:01 >\ 08:28:04 okokokokokoko 08:28:05 >\o/ 08:28:06 | 08:28:06 /< 08:28:06 okokokokokokokokoko 08:28:07 okokokokoko 08:28:08 okokokokoko 08:28:09 okokokokoko 08:28:11 okokokokokokokokokokoko 08:28:13 okokokokokokokokokoko 08:28:15 okokokoko 08:28:18 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 08:28:23 o 08:28:23 oko 08:28:23 okokokokokokokokoko\o/okoko 08:28:23 | 08:28:24 /`\ 08:28:32 8| 08:28:38 i hope that was just delay on my screen 08:28:57 what was? 08:29:02 oh wait 08:29:04 is myndzi a bot 08:29:06 \o/ 08:29:06 | 08:29:06 |\ 08:29:11 right :P 08:29:15 sorry, took a sec 08:29:17 \o/ 08:29:17 | 08:29:17 |\ 08:29:23 | \ 08:29:29 mainly because it failed the first one 08:29:29 | \ 08:29:31 didn't it 08:29:43 \o/ 08:29:44 | 08:29:44 /| 08:29:50 | 08:29:52 which one 08:29:56 [10:26] \o/ 08:29:56 | 08:29:56 /< 08:29:57 err 08:30:04 i can't paste multiple lines 08:30:09 \m/ \m/ 08:30:12 but it was the first one. 08:30:17 huh 08:30:22 \m/ \m/ 08:30:23 body was detached from the head 08:30:25 :( 08:30:29 \o/ 08:30:29 | 08:30:29 >\ 08:30:34 > \ 08:30:35 \m/\m/ 08:30:35 > \ 08:30:50 \o/ 08:30:50 | 08:30:50 |\ 08:30:51 It "fails" if you use an IRC thing that aligns stuff so that the beginnings of messages match up, instead of the beginnings of nicknames. 08:31:02 \o/ 08:31:02 | 08:31:03 >\ 08:31:05 \o/ 08:31:05 | 08:31:05 /'\ 08:31:09 oh i think i heard GregorR say that, had no idea about context, was just skimming 08:31:12 \o/ 08:31:12 | 08:31:12 >\ 08:31:18 \o/ 08:31:18 | 08:31:18 /< 08:31:28 Though I guess that doesn't explain failing that lament thing, since their nicknames are equally long. 08:31:47 also this thing matches beginnings 08:31:55 a webirc 08:33:00 are y\o/u using a pr\o/p\o/rti\o/nal f\o/nt? 08:33:00 | | | | | 08:33:00 /´\ /< /| /| /| 08:33:09 madness! 08:33:22 naturally 08:33:30 are you questioning my sexuality 08:33:39 * lament sings Infected Mushroom 08:33:48 lament, :D which 08:34:05 i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane, i'm becoming insane, insane, insane, insane, insane 08:34:12 woohoo 08:34:18 can you sing the Spanish too? >_> 08:34:54 voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo, voy perdiendo, perdiendo 08:35:08 or maybe it's toy 08:35:11 i'm not sure 08:35:18 going insane 08:35:19 i think it's voy 08:35:26 could be either 08:35:29 i think it's voy is become 08:35:33 err 08:35:37 i think ver or something is become 08:35:53 i think it's probably toy 08:35:54 (also go) 08:36:23 i don't know what toy means, but i'm assuming that should mean the same thing as the english one 08:36:33 infected mushroom is coming to my city - ten days after i leave :( 08:37:21 :{ 08:38:46 infected mushroom is psychedelic music i think 08:38:47 innit? 08:38:53 something like that 08:39:04 yes 08:39:22 some goa influence too. They do have some traditional-y techno trance though 08:39:24 -!- tombom has joined. 08:39:25 you mean like genre? 08:39:32 also 08:39:34 or just adjective 08:39:40 my god is Erez Eisen tasty 08:39:48 Yes it is, child 08:40:06 would just like to point out once again that genres are stupid, mainly because i don't know them. 08:40:07 i can't hear any goa influence there 08:40:24 goa is boring shitty music that uses indian scales. 08:40:34 infected mushroom is awesome cool shit that uses israeli scales. 08:41:04 is gracenotes a person or a bot? 08:41:05 they're quite superficially similar, related to major phrygian mode 08:41:14 musical shit would've been a better term 08:41:20 i mean 08:41:23 because 08:41:24 nm 08:41:28 Gracenotes: yes but it's not an influence 08:41:29 shalom, shalom, .. 08:41:36 mm Erez Eisen 08:41:44 lament: I dunno. I think I hear it in the instrumentation. 08:41:48 i should listen to infected mushroom more 08:41:49 Gracenotes: infected mushroom is pretty clearly influenced by israeli music 08:42:05 which is where that scale is coming from 08:42:13 that would make sense 08:42:26 since Erez Eisen and whoever the other guy is are israeli :p 08:42:35 Gracenotes: mushroom is way more varied though 08:42:47 maybe i just hate goa 08:43:12 i enjoy goa. but only certain pieces. 08:43:15 much like everything else. 08:43:16 lol 08:43:20 I'm not a huge fan of goa 08:43:25 hardly 08:44:09 the impression i got from goa 08:44:11 but I really like Juno Reactor's adoption of some goa themes 08:44:26 idioms if you will 08:44:33 was that they were just trying to do the same thing traditional indian music already does, but much more poorly 08:45:05 (goa much more poorly than traditional) 08:45:17 * Gracenotes wonders what traditional indian music "does" 08:45:46 speaking of which, you like Juno Reactor somewhat? 08:45:50 never heard it 08:45:54 i think 08:46:27 this seems like a good time to answer, augur: freecell is a game that comes with windows, deck is randomized in a few stacks all cards showing, and you need to dig up all suits in their separate stacks in ascending order with a few rules constraining moves. 08:46:32 yeah, lots of bands out there :) I first heard them when they collaborated with The Matrix soundtrack producers 08:46:46 they were the ones who wrote the great car chase music in the 2nd movie 08:46:59 it's like a card game, a solitaire 08:47:10 haven't seen it :) 08:47:14 yeah 08:47:45 oklopol: OH 08:47:48 freecell 08:47:50 ok 08:48:23 freecell is good for when i want to feel smart without thinking. 08:48:34 well not feel smart, more like waste time 08:48:55 when i want to feel smart, i go to a programming channel that isn't #haskell 08:49:02 instant gratification 08:49:10 have you read rwh 08:49:10 #python great fun 08:49:38 oklopol: i was just reading it today 08:50:21 i want someone to tell me i didn't dream all the tons of errors that wouldn't show up in simple test runs, but are so blazingly obvious they make the reader cry 08:50:40 well not tons, but at least 3! 08:51:02 i saw one but it was just a wrong variable name 08:51:17 first 200 pages are mostly error-free 08:51:23 then it's downhill 08:51:52 i just bought it for the cover! 08:52:17 tbh the only error i remember now - should've written them down or shut up probably - is that they use a height for a width 08:52:51 ohh 08:53:04 omg this is so tasty D: 08:53:04 they make this algorithm for reading barcodes 08:53:43 8===D 08:54:00 they use a certain simple scheme the find out what the digits are, when they're not sure, based on the checksum digit 08:54:04 i made a tarte flambee for dinner 08:54:16 but i'm at least 30% sure it can only correct the first digit. 08:54:20 with a slightly modified recipe (two or three tbsp butter) 08:54:27 which made it sooooo much tastier 08:54:39 test run only tested a case with exactly the first digit wrong, which at least somewhat supported my theory. 08:57:36 i wish i had the book so i could find the errors that are worth sharing 09:00:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:26:45 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:26:54 -!- tetha has joined. 09:32:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:33:03 lol theres actually a channel #spam 09:33:35 SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM 09:33:50 dpaofigjipodjgiojdfsiogjdiofjg 09:34:02 oklopol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 09:34:42 * oerjan has missed you 09:35:04 morning 09:35:07 hi oklopol 09:35:22 oklopol, you said something about internet issues yesterday? What was that about? 09:38:13 well my regular internet stream got dammed by the Company, because i didn't pay the bills (i accidentally them behind a radiator!) 09:38:33 ouch 09:38:41 and some internet flowed around my apartment for a while 09:39:03 but then came summer drought. 09:41:33 hey, oerjan, it's you! 09:44:52 * oerjan looks around shiftily 09:45:43 have you ever painted a fish 09:46:15 not that i can recall. i think they're quite awkward to paint on 09:47:43 i realized today that i'm not sure whether i've ever tried drugs. 09:47:47 especially if live yes 09:47:48 i don't remember 09:47:49 :D 09:48:01 (the fish that is) 09:48:13 i mean not because of blackouts, i just don't remember. my life is just so damn long. 09:48:20 S/liv/aliv/ 09:48:23 live drugs sound disturbing 09:48:48 oerjan, as opposed to pre-recorded drugs? 09:49:02 now, as opposed to unliving ones 09:49:04 *no 09:49:13 oerjan, zombie drugs? 09:49:46 you are thinking of undead. admittedly that also sounds disturbing, although perhaps less so 09:50:20 less than living ones? 09:50:23 huh 09:51:32 odd that wikipedia doesn't have a page about bogosearch, since it implements it 09:51:46 ([[Special:Random]] that is) 09:52:05 random shuffles the whole wp? 09:52:14 oklopol, that would be bogo_sort_ 09:52:20 ugh, yeah 09:52:20 I said bogosearch 09:52:55 "Live drugs" sounds like some sort of all-natural all-organic fresh-from-the-field drug thing. 09:52:56 yeah, i just don't really see what people write, they just loosely guide me to semi-sensible answers. 09:53:48 bogosearch may not have a bad enough O() 09:54:04 it's probably O(n) on average 09:54:08 bogo? 09:54:26 fizzie, couldn't some drugs be extracted from animals? In theory. If you can extract poison for darts from some sort of toad, why couldn't you find some other toad where you could extract a drug instead? 09:54:38 bogosearch = random elements until you find what you're looking for? 09:54:58 if so, a live drug would be not bother extracting it, but just eating it raw and alive 09:55:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:55:24 oh it's a joke 09:55:45 oerjan, I always wondered how one figure out the O() for an algorithm. Especially when it isn't O(n) or O(1) (those are quite simple to figure out) but something like O(log log n) 09:56:24 also, sure about Special:Random until you found what you wanted would be O(n)? 09:56:37 assuming only one page satisfies your criteria 09:56:48 assuming that yes 09:56:59 of course if it's not there you have a problem 09:57:05 oerjan, indeed 09:57:06 worst case is infinite of course 09:57:10 yes 09:57:16 oh yeah 09:57:25 big O notation doesn't work very well for probabilistic algorithms X3 09:57:31 sure doe 09:57:33 *does 09:57:51 you take the worst case average probability over all inputs 09:57:58 a random walk has O(infinity) 09:57:58 err 09:58:01 OMG it's impossible 09:58:01 average time 09:58:16 yeah you can't use the same definition ofc 09:58:29 but what you usually use is what i said there, plus correction 09:58:55 each lookup has 1/n chance of finding the item 09:59:23 (assuming uniform randomness of course) 09:59:54 AnMaster: for an algorithm, it's just simple math 10:00:11 oerjan, can you construct a bogosearch with _worse_ average time... 10:00:13 the probability of using m lookups is (1-1/n)^m * 1/n 10:00:55 sum m/n * (1-1/n)^m to get the expected value 10:01:12 *^(m-1) 10:01:35 bogosearch, but it returns a certain page n times in a row on average before returning a new random page 10:01:39 oerjan, is the "sum" there same as $$\sum$$ ? 10:01:58 AnMaster: yeah 10:02:05 oerjan, right 10:02:14 I guess you mean "$\sum$"; or does something use a double-dollar thing with TeX-like maths? 10:02:24 to make it worse you would essentially have to throw away found information? 10:02:45 i think $$ may be equivalent to \[ ? 10:02:45 fizzie, err, probably mixed it up 10:02:51 yeah 10:02:55 oerjan, so it is 10:02:55 only vaguely 10:03:00 iirc 10:03:06 not sure why both exist 10:03:08 I don't think it is, but you could be right. 10:03:18 you think what you want to think 10:03:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 10:03:50 fizzie, I have seen maxima's "to tex" thingy generate double $$, when pasted into lyx it turns into \[ iirc 10:03:52 well look at that, there he goes again 10:04:02 Oh yes, $$ is the "inherited from plain TeX" thing. 10:04:14 so why change it to \[ 10:05:19 "Using the plain TeX notation $$ ... $$ for displayed equations is not recommended. Although it is not expressly forbidden in LaTeX, it is not documented anywhere in the LaTeX book as being part of the LaTeX command set, and it interferes with the proper operation of various features such as the fleqn option." 10:06:05 ah 10:06:21 (the time delay there was looking up wth "fleqn" was) 10:06:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:07:14 wb oerjan 10:07:26 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:13:17 try "echo > >(less)" over ssh 10:13:22 it does strange stuff 10:14:02 i notice if i "yes > >(less)" and ctrl-c it terminates my ssh session 10:14:39 " > >"? 10:14:48 hm 10:14:58 * AnMaster tries to figure out what on earth it does 10:15:17 ">(less)" is the process substitution thing. 10:15:18 <(less) I know, but what is >()? Same but for input? 10:15:32 yes 10:15:32 Yes. 10:15:35 right 10:16:11 so that turns into echo > /dev/fd/something & less /dev/fd/something in other words... 10:16:18 I think 10:16:30 At least the ">(less)" part turns into a "/dev/fdX" type of string which is the write end of a pipe, the read end of which is used as input to less. 10:16:31 two different something 10:16:54 I don't think it actually runs "less /dev/fd/somethingelse", just "less" with stdin coming from that pipe. 10:16:56 oh and this is probably complicated by the fact that echo is a builtin 10:17:16 it turns into "echo > file-descriptor-pointing-to-stdin-of-less" 10:17:40 fizzie, doing comm <(foo) <(bar) turns it into "comm /dev/fd/something /dev/fd/somethingelse" 10:17:41 It's file-descriptor-pointing-to-a-write-end-of-a-fifo-which-has-the-read-end-as-the-stdin-of-less. 10:17:44 but maybe not for the command inside 10:18:05 fifo as in what you get with the mkfifo command? or something else? 10:18:21 Well, what you get from pipe(2). 10:18:35 which is different from mkfifo 10:18:50 Yes, it doesn't have a name. 10:18:51 mkfifo creates a fifo file on disk 10:19:01 fizzie, sure it does. "a pipe" 10:19:10 oh you mean the actual instance? right 10:19:13 I mean a filesystem-name. 10:19:16 right 10:19:28 bubblesort considered harmful 10:19:51 ? 10:21:04 from this follows that the reason for *nix like OS being used for many servers is that they have good pipe supports, which is handy when working with the tubes of the internet. 10:21:13 ............... 10:21:35 s/supports/support/ 10:21:54 why not pipe supports to? 10:21:56 =============== 10:22:00 | | | | 10:22:00 immibis, indeed why not 10:22:12 immibis, I think you aren't using a fixed font for irc? 10:22:16 no 10:22:30 there are more supports than pipe there 10:22:32 by far 10:23:14 Maybe the pipe part is still under construction. 10:23:33 ah, probably 10:23:42 I actually ran into an animated "under construction" .gif rather recently. It was very nostalgic. 10:23:52 fizzie, hehe 10:24:11 ===============O===========\ 10:24:11 | | | | | | \\ 10:24:11 | | | / \ | | \\ 10:24:21 that should look fine in fixed width 10:24:26 yes 10:24:29 but who is that guy 10:24:29 For some values of fine, yes. 10:24:34 theres also a person pretending to be a pipe support 10:24:39 right 10:24:42 The pipe goes through his head. That looks uncomfortable. 10:25:16 fizzie, isn't he standing just in front of the pipe rather? 10:25:18 http://www.vennamo.com/pict/CONBTN2P.GIF 10:25:31 I think it's in-one-ear, out-of-the-other. 10:25:55 * AnMaster wonders why selecting to open that link in the browser instead opened it in gimp 10:26:27 fizzie, big ears then 10:26:29 Strange; it has the sensible image/gif mimetype and all. 10:26:50 fizzie, yeah, if mime-type is wrong it tends to try to open them in khexedit instead.. 10:27:55 klipper is the "it" here 10:31:03 GregorR: opus 10 is nice. 10:32:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 10:51:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 11:46:53 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:51:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 12:08:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:17:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 12:38:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:37:01 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 ."). 13:45:44 http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx 14:01:10 What the what? "Developer tools: Of course Internet Explorer 8 wins this one." 14:01:14 Right, of course. 14:01:53 I like the checkmark approach. You should use IE because none of the alternatives have either security or privacy at all. 14:38:26 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 14:49:18 tab isolation? 14:50:52 oklopol, like chrome I think 14:51:53 think i've tried / will ever try chrome? 14:53:30 Tab isolation means running each tab in a separate process or some-such, so that if one tab crashes, the whole browser won't come crashing down. 14:53:43 Personally I think they could just make the browser, you know, not crash. 14:54:04 right, guessed it'd some kinda non-feature 14:54:24 well, i guessed it was that non-feature 14:54:35 Apparently tab isolation means increased memory usage, too, since there's some stuff that could be shared but is not. At least according to some people. And you know you can trust [some people]. 14:55:14 fizzie, err... what sort of stuff 14:55:26 you know, bits 14:55:30 .. 14:57:03 Look, it was just a quote from the interwebs. I don't care about the topic so much than I'd bothered to have read more. 14:57:30 it's bits, trust me 14:57:32 it's always bits 14:57:37 you know that most (if not all) modern OS share the read-only parts of executable files (shared libraries and executables) between different instances? So you end up with just one copy of libc in memory for example 14:57:43 well, usually. 14:57:51 there are some exceptions to this 14:58:00 even i know that 14:58:09 and fizzie is a nerd 14:58:13 so he definitely knows 14:58:26 for example, if you didn't compile the code as position independent and it ended up needing to be reallocated, it would be copied. 14:59:06 but iirc windows doesn't use PIC in DLLs, so I guess it could be affected quite badly by that if any dll ends up being reallocated. 14:59:13 PIC? 14:59:16 Yes, well, I gather there's quite a lot of not-read-only state in gecko or whatever the rendererer is called; I have no clue whether some of that can be optimilized in the "multiple tabs, single process" case more than the "multiple processes with separate memory spaces" one, but it doesn't sound completely unbelievable. 14:59:27 Position Independent Code 14:59:30 oklopol, that's what 14:59:32 ah 14:59:43 fizzie, you could use mmap() to share it 14:59:50 well, a bit more than just mmap() 15:00:02 but basically mmap() + a few other system calls 15:00:09 You could do shared-memory trickery, but I'm also not sure they do. 15:01:37 fizzie, consider settings like "home page, size of disk cache" and what not. Of course they can't be in .rodata. What you do is simply to have one process with it mapped read-write (the controller process), and the tab processes have it mapped read-only 15:01:57 if the user wasn't to change it after intitial load of browser it wouldn't even require that 15:02:04 it would just work, since fork() does COW 15:02:13 Yes, again, it's another point of complexity. 15:02:17 of course, most of this doesn't apply to windows. which iirc doesn't do COW... 15:02:22 fizzie, that is true. 15:03:11 but I argue you can solve it with close to zero increased memory usage. Of course memory will increase slightly. If by nothing else, at least due to kernel having to manage more processes, requiring more task structures and so on. 15:03:16 Anyway, I don't really have an onion on tab isolation; I just am a bit unsure why it's being hyped like it's the best thing since sliced bread that crashing tabs don't crash the browser, I'd rather the tabs not crash. 15:03:56 fizzie, browsers will always has bugs. Just realise it. As soon as you add javascript that is. 15:04:06 it becomes very large. 15:04:21 that is, all features of javascript 15:04:29 and the rendering stuff too 15:04:31 and so on 15:04:35 i hear this IE8 never crashes 15:05:35 sure you can make a small browser if it is just to render basic html and possibly handle simple javascripts. But that would result in something like "w3m extended" 15:05:36 Yes, I guess bugs exist, but I still think it's a bit disturbing if it's so common-place that you'll have to jump through hoops to minimize damage. Not that I'm against modularity. 15:06:34 fizzie, if so, why do OSes use rings and protected memory 15:06:37 clearly it isn't needed 15:07:04 It's a bit different thing to be executing someone else's native code. 15:07:18 fizzie, isn't that was plugins is all about? 15:07:30 so 15:07:37 I would hope plugins are well isolated, yes. 15:07:39 this has been a treat, see you in a few months! 15:07:43 except, and this is hilarious, plugins aren't restricted by the tab thingy 15:07:45 BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 15:07:46 because it breaks the API 15:07:50 oklopol, cya 15:07:54 I don't think that has anything to do about whether to run each tab in a separate process. 15:07:59 oklopol: OH NOES BYE BYE 15:08:03 :)))))))))))))))))))))))) 15:08:05 -!- oklopol has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 15:08:40 (Why on earth am I even in this discussion? It's not like I care about tab-schmizzolation at all.) 15:08:45 fizzie, yes, but they can't be sandboxed. IIRC the tab separation thing is also about adding sandboxing to prevent non-intented system calls and such :) 15:08:53 I wonder that too 15:09:01 * AnMaster goes back reading about SSA form 15:09:15 * fizzie goes back to preparing slides. 15:47:34 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:05:46 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 16:11:29 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:13:57 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 16:16:58 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 16:20:16 Windows doesn't do PIC or COW or... Wow. How very backwards. 16:20:55 Linux doesn't pick cows either. 16:20:58 So give it a break. 16:21:49 Actually, it does have PIC and it does COW on forks. 16:22:07 (as would any sane OS. Seriously, COW at page level is trivial.) 16:23:49 $ modprobe pickcows 16:23:49 $ cat /sys/bus/cows/pick 16:23:49 Uhh, Bessie? 16:23:50 $ 16:23:52 Wow, you're right! 16:25:17 Ò_ó 16:27:57 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:30:41 CESSMASTER, master of cesspools, has a very odd nick ... DRAMATICALLY! Can one "have" dramatically? 16:40:43 -!- Hiato has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:50:46 -!- coppro has joined. 16:54:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:35:38 I just reverted multiple weeks worth of changes to the autocomposer :P 17:46:13 i'm not a master of cesspools 17:46:16 i'm a master of cess 17:46:24 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 17:47:23 Cess is just what you find in a cesspool, right? :P 17:48:59 naw 17:50:23 cess is a game played on a 7x8 board 17:53:39 So, is a game played on a 3x8 board? 17:55:54 no, 5x8 17:57:27 * GregorR-L wonders how big es boards are. 18:01:48 1x8, of course. 18:02:04 The layout is as follows: 18:02:19 kp PK 18:04:34 Now, solve it! 18:05:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:12:00 GregorR-L: 6x8 18:16:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:27:42 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:36:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:48:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:01:38 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined. 19:03:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:15:33 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:31:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:44:55 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:20:13 10:50:15 GregorR-L, I never met people so stupid here in Sweden FYI 20:20:16 you're a moron 20:20:20 stupid != unknowledgeable about computers. 20:20:45 10:47:45 ehird: The weirdest thing is that everyone AGREES to the wrong definition ... 20:20:46 yeah 20:20:48 that is odd 20:21:03 But that's beyond ignorance. Ignorance is fine. 20:21:04 well, there's one person who gets it right 20:21:23 GregorR-L: they legitimately think that and haven't been exposed to any contrary definition 20:21:31 what part of that involves them being stupid? 20:21:51 I didn't say it was stupid, just that it's not /just/ unknowledgeable/ignorant. 20:22:17 GregorR-L: what is it, then? 20:22:37 Depends on how they came to know that definition. 20:22:41 Either stupid or misinformed. 20:23:21 The sheer consistency suggests a minority population stupid and majority population misinformed. 20:24:42 agreed 20:25:03 GregorR-L: but that just reflects people in general 20:25:08 'struth 20:25:31 (ok, you could make an argument most people are stupid, but misanthropes aren't very good statisticians :P) 20:25:33 s/ / / 20:26:03 ehird: What are you, antimisanthropic? Misanthropes are people too. Stupid fucking idiots, like all people, but still people. 20:26:22 That was difficult to write X-P 20:26:27 antimisanthropic. 20:26:29 So, mismisanthropic? 20:26:44 And the winner of this year's Miss Misanthropic prize is, 20:27:26 -!- whtspc has joined. 20:27:31 GregorR-L: I'm antimisantidisestablishmentarianism. So I'm against people who think that everyone who opposes the removal of the Church of England's status as the state church of Ireland and Wales are stupid. 20:27:54 I see, I see. 20:28:04 Y'know what, so am I. 20:28:21 ehird: you're an -ism? 20:28:32 jism. People who don't like the J programming language. 20:28:55 lament: hurf durf 20:28:57 s/ism/ist/. 20:29:05 Surf the hurf durf? 20:29:23 (The correct response, by the way, is "not on my turf!") 20:29:37 how does somebody not like J? 20:30:08 because it's just poor man's APL? 20:30:17 CESSMASTER: Because they're nazis. 20:30:28 lament: Oh, yeah? Well, so's YOUR MOM. 20:30:32 lament is a multi-millionnaire playboy. 20:30:34 lament: yous a bourgeois 20:30:48 burgeroisie 20:30:58 * pikhq is opposed to the mere idea of a state church 20:30:58 Ber-jwa 20:31:10 * ehird opposed to the mere idea of a church :P 20:31:15 ^is 20:31:30 ^ ist 20:31:58 * pikhq beats ehird with nontheist religions 20:32:14 pikhq: What have nontheist religions got to do with churches? 20:32:35 Some of them possess something that could be called a "church". 20:32:41 * GregorR-L beats pikhq with phrases that needlessly dilute the meaning of perfectly meaningful words. 20:32:55 pikhq: That would require me to support nontheist religions, too. 20:32:59 GregorR-L: Unfortunately, "church" has too many meanings. 20:33:09 David slowed his pace as his ears, antimisantidisestablishmentarianism. 20:33:09 I was talking about "religion" 20:33:14 But all religions are superstitious, so I don't see why your argument should hold water with me. 20:33:16 Oh. 20:33:22 GregorR-L: Buddhism is a nontheist religion. 20:33:31 Religion is just a superstitious belief system. 20:33:35 so is math. 20:33:47 the belief in the law of excluded middle is superstitious. 20:34:02 lament: I'd so spend the time rebutting that but I do it way too fucking much :) 20:34:14 lament : It is not superstition, it is axiom 20:34:23 Slereah: so is the existence of God. 20:34:25 tl;dr religions have several factors differing themselves in major ways to mathematics 20:34:26 Math people don't have to think it true 20:34:36 And sometimes, they don't 20:34:45 There's plenty of logic without excluded middle 20:35:07 Intuitionist logic nigger 20:35:42 Am I the only person offended by Slereah's needless use of a racially-loaded word? Why has nothing been done about this, e.g. a kickban. 20:36:03 I agree. 20:36:13 Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel. 20:36:20 Isn't that racist? 20:36:23 ............................................... 20:36:35 GregorR-L: Because (a) nobody gives a shit, (b) he's from the *chans, so he gets a free pass, (c) we pretty much have an anarchy (yeah okay lament's gonna do something just to dissuade that notion :)), (d) you have /ignore and finally (e) you're probably trolling me. 20:36:42 ... --- ... 20:36:59 "he's from the *chans"??? 20:37:06 Slereah was born in /b/. 20:37:08 True story. 20:37:13 Wow. 20:37:18 (ehird doesn't care because he is a /prog/lodyte) 20:37:30 Slereah: We are much more esteemed than your ilk. 20:37:41 Incidentally, GregorR-L, nigger. 20:37:55 Ah, but I am of Slashdot. 20:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 20:37:59 Incidentally, ehird, goatse.cx 20:38:12 ehird : /prog/ is full of tablecats and shit 20:38:13 (ais523 left because we're talking about niggers. I will bet $10 on this.) 20:38:28 It's one step removed from /vip/ 20:38:34 All you need is some more JEWS 20:38:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:38:41 Slereah: the /vip/ people are invading /prog/ 20:39:08 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 20:39:09 pikhq: coolfreeringtones.on.nimp.org 20:39:19 pikhq: don't 20:39:35 ais523: Oh come on, nobody would click that. 20:39:45 But it is COOL FREE RINGTONES! 20:39:57 ais523: Anyway, why didn't you warn me about his goatse.cx link? 20:40:00 I'm very offended. 20:40:34 Actually, DQN made a real COOL FREE RINGTONES 20:40:39 ais523: Goatse.cx no longer exists, anyways. 20:40:46 pikhq: Wrong. 20:40:48 If I could use a custom ringtone on my cellphone, it would be that 20:40:50 It exists, it just doesn't have goatse on it. 20:40:57 Well. 20:40:59 It has a goatse. 20:41:00 I've seen about the top 50 pixels of goatse 20:41:03 Mmkay. 20:41:03 Just not a NSFW goatse. 20:41:07 So it's SFW. 20:41:14 it was loading very slowly, and I guessed it was goatse before it had fully loaded 20:41:20 so I looked away and pressed back on the keyboard 20:41:21 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]"). 20:41:23 before I saw the rest of it 20:41:48 http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/COOL_FREE_RINGTONE.mp3 20:41:50 the first time I saw goatse was when the computer i used was in clear view of anyone in the living room with just a flick of their head 20:41:52 and it loaded quickly 20:41:52 COOL FREE RINGTONE 20:41:58 that was an agonizing leap for the close tab button :D 20:42:08 (after the obligatory 3 seconds of shock) 20:45:58 10:52:23 lament, spiders 20:45:58 10:52:26 is the technical term 20:46:08 I hereby accuse AnMaster of taking lament seriously. 20:46:10 Ever. 20:46:38 10:54:36 he should fix align. To not assume mirc style. I think mirc is rather uncommon in this channel 20:46:45 the only common client doing other things is xchat 20:46:54 irssi, limechat, clog... all do it the mirc way 20:47:02 hmm maybe not chatzilla 20:47:04 but w/e 20:47:07 only a few use chatzilla 20:47:46 i think ERC might do it by default too 20:47:50 so there 20:48:49 11:01:39 I find irssi a very poor irc client 20:48:49 11:01:45 unless you stay on freenode only 20:48:52 wtf is poor about irssi 20:49:16 11:02:55 pikhq: VMWare on OS X, which is garbage-o and 32-bit even on a 64-bit proc. 20:49:18 just install linux 20:49:29 11:02:30 it seriously messes up on irc servers with more prefixes than +%@ 20:49:29 11:02:41 like those having ~& too 20:49:30 no... no it doesn't 20:51:02 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:51:13 GregorR-L: Hello, not-nigger. 20:51:24 Your stupidity can't fool me, I have logs :P 20:52:31 who wants their mind frazzled 20:52:40 "semiconductor intellectual property core" 20:52:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_intellectual_property_core 20:53:22 HURF DURF. 20:54:32 BUTTER EATER 20:55:04 * GregorR-L looks up from drinking a glass of melted butter, to his chagrin. 20:55:22 HI I'M ON METAFILTER AND I COULD OVERTHINK A PLATE OF BEANS. 20:56:20 -!- CESSMASTER has left (?). 20:59:27 11:39:24 It wouldn't have been that complicated to figure out that it was PROBABLY on the Wikipedia page "Gold" X_X 20:59:28 11:39:24 Yeesh 20:59:30 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22Gold+reacts+differently,+depending+on+subtle+relativistic+effects+that+affect+the+orbitals+around+gold+atoms.%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 20:59:34 it's only the first result and all 20:59:55 11:41:12 quicksearch? 20:59:55 11:41:33 Deewiant, an alias for asking ehird on irc :D 21:00:06 no, that's (\_ -> undefined) 21:00:33 -!- c_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:12 11:47:07 GregorR, is this a reference to Discworld? 21:02:21 Everything is a discworld reference if all you know is discworld. 21:02:58 11:49:34 Since, well... New DVDs are $10. RedBox rentals are $1/night. 21:02:58 11:49:37 What's the point? 21:03:04 and piracy is $0/forever! 21:03:31 ehird: Not in the US :P 21:03:49 GregorR-L: what kind of piracy costs money? 21:03:51 It's a stochastic $0 or $rand(1, 100)K 21:03:57 well apart from the reselling kind 21:03:57 ehird: The kind you get caught and sued for. 21:04:08 GregorR-L: the riaa hasn't actually won against anyone. 21:04:17 mostly out-of-court settlements 21:04:31 How many in-court cases have they had? 21:04:37 Tons. 21:04:43 GregorR-L: anyway, what if you jaywalk right after getting a redbox dvd 21:04:47 :p 21:04:49 ORLY? I thought almost everybody settled out of court *shrugs* 21:04:54 um 21:04:55 duh 21:04:57 that's what I meant 21:05:02 they've never won anything 21:05:10 just extorted money from people out of court 21:05:26 Right, but if they've had "tons" of in-court cases they lost, that's significant. 21:05:39 11:52:12 or tv 21:05:39 11:52:44 I have no TV either, I do have an old VHS unit 21:05:43 http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694 21:05:50 I thought they were doing more of a we-don't-want-to-really-go-to-court-because-if-we-lose-then-we-lose-all-clout thing. 21:06:17 it's possible they've settled every single case out of court. 21:06:24 i'm fairly sure they haven't won. 21:06:39 So am I, but I thought it was because they'd never gone to court. 21:06:45 "The RIAA's goals[1] are: 21:06:45 to protect [...] the First Amendment [...]" 21:06:47 — Wikipedia 21:06:54 GregorR-L: Uh, I'm fairly sure they have gone to court. 21:07:05 Okidokie, Idonno *shrugs* 21:07:14 And not one case that has gone to court is done yet. 21:08:03 Exactly one has even had the initial court case go through all the way -- and that case in question was pronounced a mistrial, IIRC. 21:08:07 s/in question// 21:09:14 They've had a fuckton of settlements. 21:10:58 pikhq: metric fuckton? 21:11:27 or imperial 21:12:27 SI fuckton. 21:13:07 pikhq: erm, metric = SI usually 21:13:13 for meter kilo etc 21:13:21 Metric system, a system of units developed in France in the 18th century 21:13:22 International System of Units, or Système International (SI), the international system of units since 1960, a subset of the former 21:13:25 QED. 21:14:11 Some units are metric but not SI. 21:14:28 subset, beyotch. 21:14:34 "metric foo?" "SI" 21:14:36 ↑ nonsense 21:14:41 same thing if foo is in SI 21:14:43 And some SI units are not metric. 21:14:46 so "metric fuckton" → "SI fuckton" is sily. 21:14:52 pikhq: wikipedia disagrees. 21:17:20 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 21:17:47 13:09:04 then shut the fuck up with your stupid bullshit 13:09:20 you do this all the fucking time 13:09:46 you dont pay attention to the channel, and then you get into these fucking arguments because you dont know what the fuck people said 13:09:52 but you act like you DO know 21:17:52 people angry at anmaster make me glee with glee. 21:17:55 yes, glee is a verb 21:18:37 13:19:56 oerjan, I don't have time to try to figure out what this joke is. So I won't. 21:18:49 AnMaster: in such a hurry that he has no time for IRCing; which is why he wasn't talking in here. Wait. 21:19:46 ehird, logreader extraordinare. 21:19:55 pikhq: It's kind of an addiction. 21:19:56 ehird: Yes, as a verb is one way you can sheeple glee. 21:20:06 GregorR-L_: Stop weirding language. 21:20:19 16:30:13 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric 21:20:19 16:30:23 what's new 21:20:21 16:39:29 --- nick: comex -> c_ 21:20:23 16:39:58 well, see you in a few months :) 21:20:25 16:40:12 or, well, when internet starts flowing in my apartment again 21:20:27 16:40:14 -> 21:20:29 16:40:19 --- quit: oklopol ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi") 21:20:31 ONLY A FLEETING GLIMPSE 21:20:33 BUT MY HEART HAS GROWN FONDER 21:20:37 lol 21:20:50 19:18:36 wow 21:20:50 19:18:44 why would Xorg be using 1.2 gb ram? 21:20:51 because it sees you aren't using your 12gb 21:20:54 so it decided to take 10% 21:21:05 19:26:48 Wow. Zicam can cause anosmia. 'Fun'. 21:21:07 and only causes 21:21:20 HURF DURF HOMEOPATHY 21:21:22 I am currently doing something very, very silly. 21:21:33 I see. 21:21:43 This brought to you by IRC in Screen via SSH from a virtual machine to localhost. 21:21:48 "Zicam can cause anosmia" // wtfbbq? 21:21:50 The virtual machine in question is running Cygwin. 21:21:58 GregorR-L_: Zicam is a retarded homeopathic thing. 21:22:13 It has bad side effects!!!12121 21:23:16 Apparently. 21:23:37 Does it do anything useful? :P 21:23:44 GregorR-L_: It's homeopathy. 21:23:58 Is it purported to do anything useful? :P 21:24:03 Fix colds. 21:24:55 Ah maze ing. 21:25:28 pikhq: So, uh, why are you surprised homeopathic "remedies" aren't fluffy bunnies and magical cures? :P 21:25:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:25:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 21:26:06 "In September 2003, Zicam (which claims on its label to be "homeopathic") faced lawsuits from users who claimed that the product negatively affected their sense of smell, and sometimes taste. In January 2006, 340 lawsuits were settled for $12 million.[9] In early 2004, at the height of the controversy" 21:26:12 Up to date! 21:26:19 -!- coppro has joined. 21:26:20 (OK, so on the 16th the FDA told people not to use it. But c'mon.) 21:26:44 Don't you know that "natural" = "safe"?! 21:26:55 Go out into the forest and eat anything you can find, and you'll be healthier! 21:27:08 Especially leaves with weird prickly bits or bright colors. 21:27:10 GregorR-L: Well, if they literally just did the dilution a ton of times (so it's more effective, you see) into water, it'd be perfectly safe! 21:27:20 Ha 21:27:33 Unless the provably more than the agent amounts of Francis Bacon's pee in it are feeling particularly toxic today. 21:27:41 Wow that was an awkward sentence 21:27:44 Can you tell I wrote it non-linearly? 21:27:49 UNRELATED: Y'know what would be hill-larry-us? If gaylick.com was a homoerotically-themed Gaelic language learning site. 21:28:01 :D 21:28:26 20:38:10 --- join: oklopol (i=oklopol@a91-156-18-48.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #esoteric 21:28:26 20:38:15 morning 21:28:27 20:39:45 i'm not a programmer 21:28:29 OH 21:28:31 OKLOPOL 21:28:33 MY LOVE 21:28:57 You're creepin' us out here :P 21:29:07 GregorR-L: SAYS MR HOMOEROTIC GAELIC 21:29:14 *GAYLICK 21:29:16 Quick! Type faster than ehird can read! 21:29:20 HE SHALL NEVER CATCH UP! 21:29:24 MUAHAHAHA 21:29:29 pikhq: NOOOOOOOO 21:29:30 I can't though. 21:29:58 GregorR-L: Egobot could if you let him. 21:30:12 THIRD REICH IS LIKE A BIKE 21:30:24 pikhq: i once wrote a thingy that let you spawn a ton of clients and synchronize them talking 21:30:31 and used it to do some one-message-per-user floodin 21:30:31 g 21:30:33 fungot: third reich 21:30:34 pikhq: the pgimeno is a guy in fnord flares and a superman cape flying through a computer science wookie. i expected something better. 21:30:34 it was great 21:30:41 you could spit out 300 lines in like 30 seconds 21:31:19 20:56:50 oklopol, whats your opinion of a programming language where you have to take certain core pieces of code, all of which are full programs, and compose them together to get other programs 21:31:21 dude, uh 21:31:26 that's called point-free functional programming 21:32:33 [[To many people, including Ron Owens, the word "some" refers to a relatively small amount in between "none" and "most". But To Ron's employer, and especially in the context of "job responsibly include... some maintenance of legacy VB6 applications"]] 21:32:42 "most maintenance of legacy VB6 applications" 21:32:46 lolfailure :P 21:33:04 ehird: Whereas writing functional code in VB is called pointless functional programming? 21:33:19 GregorR-L: Well, lambdabot's @pl stands for pointless :P 21:33:23 I was just trying to avoid that joke. 21:33:33 ehird: Where's that quote from? 21:33:37 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:33:40 the fourth linking of it today 21:33:44 unless it happens again in the logs 21:33:47 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx // fifth 21:33:52 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.co 21:33:54 m/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:08:32 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/For-The-Love-Of.aspx 21:33:57 Seven billiont 21:33:59 h 21:34:09 Ah, the O(abcdefghijklmnopqr) algorithm. ^_^ 21:34:26 Wow 21:34:52 21:18:24 God, a bare minimum of 2^18 function calls. 21:34:54 er are you sure 21:34:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:35:12 I've come up with an algorithm for solving the traveling salesman problem that's O(n) in its running time. 21:35:19 Warrigal: Cool. 21:35:23 Warrigal: You can get $1,000,000. 21:35:29 O(n)? seriously? 21:35:30 yay! 21:35:31 Warrigal: Now, where's the bit of that that's inaccurate? 21:35:31 that makes no sense 21:35:36 ais523: no, it just means P=NP 21:35:42 ais523: but I highly doubt Warrigal proved that 21:35:45 ehird: even if P=NP, it wouldn't be O(n) 21:35:49 it would be O(n^something) 21:35:55 ais523: it _could_ be... 21:35:57 ais523: is that for certain, though? 21:36:04 By "in its running time", I mean n = running time. 21:36:13 Warrigal: ah, aha 21:36:14 * ehird claps. 21:36:23 Count on Warrigal to do stuff like that. 21:36:24 "Brooks Brown, Lucasarts: If Monkey Island re-release sells, other Lucasarts adventure titles will follow!" 21:36:29 * oerjan swats Warrigal -----### 21:36:29 myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/ 21:36:29 | 21:36:29 |\ 21:36:33 It's probably pretty certain that there are no linear time algorithms for solving the NP-complete problems. 21:36:33 damn you oerjan 21:36:35 myndzi: celebrate with me! \o/ \m/ 21:36:35 | 21:36:35 /< 21:36:43 meh no \m/, I forgot how to trigger that thingy :P 21:37:13 you need two, stupid 21:37:21 those are _hands_ 21:37:21 \a/ \b/ \c/ \d/ \e/ \f/ \g/ \h/ \i/ \j/ \k/ \l/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \p/ \q/ \r/ \s/ \t/ \u/ \v/ \w/ \x/ \y/ \z/ 21:37:22 `\o/´ | 21:37:22 | /´\ 21:37:22 /'\ 21:37:22 (_| |_) 21:37:26 myndzi: \m/ \o/ \m/ 21:37:30 \m/ \m/ 21:37:31 myndzi: \o/ \m/ \m/ 21:37:37 \m/ \m/ 21:37:38 `\o/´ 21:37:38 | 21:37:38 (_|¯'¯|_) 21:37:44 is that a penis 21:37:48 yes :( 21:37:50 Yes. 21:37:57 lament: but that means he has really fucking tiny legs. 21:38:00 he added penises wherever he could 21:38:14 myndzi and Slereah should hook up. 21:38:22 \m/ \m/ 21:38:22 `\o/´ 21:38:22 | 21:38:22 /`\ 21:38:22 (_| |_) 21:38:32 \m/ \m/ \o/ 21:38:32 `\o/´ | 21:38:32 | >\ 21:38:32 (_|¯´\ 21:38:32 |_) 21:38:41 \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ 21:38:47 >:| 21:38:51 \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ 21:38:55 * ehird shoots myndzi 21:38:55 * myndzi shoots ehird 21:38:58 (I'm huge!)> \m/ \m/ \o/ <(I'm tiny!) 21:38:58 `\o/´ | 21:38:58 | /´\ 21:38:58 /'\ 21:38:58 (_| |_) 21:39:35 the dicks are about the same size, though 21:39:48 \o-o-o-o-o/ <(We're holding heads!) 21:39:48 | | | 21:39:48 |\ >\ /| 21:39:54 \o/ 21:39:59 \o/ 21:40:01 \o/ 21:40:01 | 21:40:01 >\ 21:40:07 Warrigal: if there is any polynomial algorithm for an NP-complete problem, it's not that unlikely that one has a linear one, since different NP-complete problems don't need to have the same polynomial 21:40:14 \o/ 21:40:15 | 21:40:15 \o/ 21:40:15 /< 21:40:15 | 21:40:15 |\ 21:40:20 \o/ 21:40:20 | 21:40:21 /< 21:40:23 \o/ 21:40:23 | 21:40:23 |\ 21:40:26 the reductions between them are only polynomial, not linear, after all 21:40:26 \o/ 21:40:26 | 21:40:26 |\ 21:40:34 Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. 21:40:34 /o\ 21:40:34 | 21:40:34 /| 21:40:38 \m/ \m/ 21:40:41 \m/ \m/ 21:40:41 `\o/´ 21:40:41 | 21:40:41 /'¯|_) 21:40:41 (_| 21:40:45 \o/ 21:40:51 Is myndzi a ROBOT? 21:40:51 \m/ \m/ 21:40:52 `\o/´ 21:40:52 | 21:40:52 /´\ 21:40:52 (_| |_) 21:40:53 Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever. 21:40:55 \o/ 21:40:59 \o/ 21:41:00 \o/ 21:41:02 \o/ 21:41:04 \o/ 21:41:05 GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you. 21:41:06 \o/ 21:41:06 | 21:41:06 >\ 21:41:08 \o/ 21:41:08 \o/ 21:41:08 | 21:41:08 >\ 21:41:09 \o/ 21:41:09 | 21:41:09 >\ 21:41:14 OH GOD MUTANT. 21:41:25 Conclusion: Actually, it's hard to get a penis. // add this to your out-of-context quote list forever 21:41:27 oerjan: I think it's impossible for any NP-complete problem to have an O(n) solution. 21:41:27 Erm 21:41:30 Mis-copy X_X 21:41:39 21:41 GregorR-L: Miss Copy X_X // add this to your etc 21:41:41 Warrigal: in fact it's easy to do it by cheating, if you have one (just pad the input of one polynomially) 21:41:49 GregorR-L: Well, I have to become gay now just for you. // add THIS to your out-of-context quote list forever 21:41:49 Erm 21:41:54 Oh, you're right. 21:42:06 * GregorR-L is doing a bad job. 21:43:35 I AM MOSES 21:43:54 oerjan: Arguably you can solve the "some idiot gave me too damn much data" problem in O(0) time by simply never taking all after some value n, then turning your "linear" algorithm into a faster non-linear one :P 21:44:30 some idiot gave me too damn much data :( 21:44:30 GregorR-L: what? 21:44:43 ehird: YOUR MOM, THAT'S WHAT 21:44:44 GregorR-L: um that only works if you can find the answer from the first n data 21:45:12 also, that's O(1), not O(0), i think 21:45:15 oerjan: I thought you were talking about turning e.g. an O(n^2) problem into an O(n) problem by just always providing junk data as part of the "input" 21:45:20 O(0) = O(1) 21:45:25 GregorR-L: yes, i was 21:45:27 oerjan: /never/ doing something is O(0) :P 21:45:28 = O(A(g64,g64)) 21:45:29 ehird: No, it isn't 21:45:34 er 21:45:38 O(constant) always = O(constant), no? 21:45:47 ehird: no 21:45:48 well i guess O0 may be an exception. 21:45:53 indeed 21:45:55 O(bleh) is all functions computable in time bleh*k which is a constant. 21:45:59 0*k is not the same as 1*k 21:46:04 O(\o/) 21:46:04 | 21:46:04 /´\ 21:46:09 Although 2*k just means you need a smaller k. 21:46:14 see, i can get a penis. 21:46:19 lament: now that's an O-class I like 21:46:36 lament: yes, but do you have a big O to put it in? 21:46:45 ... 21:46:46 * ehird SMOOOOOOOOTH 21:46:46 Bow chicka bow wow. 21:47:02 lament: more for the out-of-context quote list? 21:49:04 GregorR-L: and of course as you say, it will work for turning it into faster than linear O(n^(1/k)) as well 21:50:04 and even more, but then the resulting problem will not be NP-complete 21:50:24 Today, on Useless Problems in Computing 21:51:01 21:33:46 your problem is not that you stop thinking when you get annoyed with me 21:51:01 21:33:50 its that you never start thinking. 21:51:08 augur oklopol isn't going to fuck you if you keep insulting his intelligence. 21:51:23 padding may be practically useless, but it is an important technique for theory iirc 21:52:23 * pikhq wants O(n^{A(G,G)}) 21:52:24 *will not be NP-complete because it will require superpolynomial time to add the padding and reduce to it 21:52:38 pikhq: 21:45 ehird: = O(A(g64,g64)) 21:52:40 Alike we think. 21:52:50 pikhq: anyway, that's trivial to construct artificially ofc 21:52:54 ehird: Except that yours is O(1) 21:52:58 ^_^ 21:52:58 i know 21:53:04 i was using it to demonstrate that :P 21:53:16 Touché. 21:53:27 it occurs to me that I only have one patch to a public open source project that I know of 21:53:36 i'm such a leecher :D 21:54:23 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/NPR-Is-Reading-My-Email,-Just-Fix-It!,--More-Support-Stories.aspx // second one in here is awesome 21:55:29 specifically, 21:56:42 http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=0719d8365337981d4ee2cc9c5f26be2fe023084d 21:56:47 which was then promptly rewritten by slava as 21:56:48 http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor/.git;a=commitdiff;h=86e5ddf449aa283ca3894b46b43cdd23df13bec7 21:57:07 1- signal-names nth; ← this is actually a syntax error :| 21:57:11 (needs a space before ;) 21:57:16 because i amended it without checking. 21:58:30 21:54:52 Out of curiosity, anyone with a good MIDI setup willing to do something with Opus 9? 21:58:30 21:55:22 Make an Ogg, really. 21:58:40 hi there! I'm barry scott asking if you have problems with the OS X soundfont 21:58:43 this has been a treat, see you in a few months! <-- what, no!! 21:58:47 No? Good! I'll make a ... wav, I guess. 21:58:50 Then flac it. 21:59:10 Also acceptable. 21:59:13 he had just temporary access? :( 21:59:21 pikhq: it sounds a bit whiney at points but meh 21:59:26 such is midi 22:00:00 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:04:27 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 22:05:06 pikhq: as soon as I install flac you shall have it 22:05:42 Nice work on not having it already, BTW. :P 22:05:47 don't give me any of that flac 22:05:57 pikhq: meh. 22:06:03 itunes doesn't support flac 22:06:06 so i have no general use for it 22:06:15 and i last reinstalled feb 22:06:20 to upgrade to leopard 22:06:45 opus 9 sounds... very italian. 22:06:55 don't you agree, GregorR? 22:06:55 (who is probably away) 22:07:02 ehird: T3h lame. 22:07:16 pikhq: meh, ALAC (apple's lossless) works for playback purposes 22:07:19 it's just a bit bigger 22:08:10 pikhq: I'm going to lzma --best both the .flac and the .wav and upload the smallest out of all of them :P 22:08:12 for no particular reason 22:08:32 Alright. I strongly suspect straight FLAC is the winner. 22:09:01 lzma inflates the flac, obviously 22:09:21 BTW, I can play ALAC, as well. 22:09:36 ALAC is just for my music library :P 22:09:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 22:09:39 (it was reverse engineered back in '05, is now in libavcodec...) 22:10:37 pikhq: Yah, lzma is 30mb vs flac's 18.3 22:10:41 well lzma is 30.2 :P 22:10:48 Hah. 22:10:56 bzip2 might do better but LAZY 22:10:58 or even 7zip 22:11:01 Specific compression scheme FTW! 22:11:08 uplodding 22:11:26 7zip uses LZMA. 22:11:42 yes 22:11:48 pikhq: but 7zip might compress it better 22:11:49 than lzma(1) 22:11:58 ... No. 22:12:00 no? 22:12:05 7zip and lzma both use liblzma. 22:12:09 ah 22:12:15 It's the same damned code doing the compression. 22:12:18 pikhq: but if they didn't; 7zip could e.g. have an equivalent to -9 22:12:22 and ok, I just didn't know that 22:12:30 s/didn't;/didn't,/ 22:12:30 Slereah: Last warning. This is a nigger-free channel. <-- ROFL 22:12:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:12:47 oh i just got that 22:12:48 heh 22:12:55 * ehird slowpoke 22:29:37 * GregorR reappears. 22:29:46 ehird: Like most great Italian tangos, huh :P 22:32:27 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:57 ehird: So, where's the FLAC? :P 22:34:15 I really want to hear this on slightly-better MIDI :P 22:34:26 (That melody was stuck in my head for literally years before I wrote that, btw) 22:34:38 * pikhq observes that Opus 8 is a great piece. Not getting the 'Italian' bit, though. 22:34:57 9? 22:35:15 Oh, he did say 9, didn't he. 22:35:22 I can't say, since I've not heard the damned thing. 22:35:33 It's a tango. 22:35:40 Tangos are not Italian :P 22:36:09 No, really? 22:36:14 :P 22:37:04 pikhq: I put up my ogg, btw :P 22:37:10 w00ts. 22:38:15 Wgetting... 22:38:30 I may recommend waiting for ehird's. 22:38:37 My MIDI instruments for that are pretty terrible. 22:38:57 Wgot. 22:39:18 ... Shit, that's terrible MIDI. 22:39:37 Yes. 22:39:38 It's like, there's only a handful of samples that are getting pitch-shifted. 22:39:39 Yes it is. 22:39:58 Unfortunately, my current MIDI doesn't do cello well at all (you can barely hear it) 22:40:01 Hence, wait for ehird's. 22:40:23 I can't listen to more. ehird, hurry up. 22:42:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:42:38 What is with all the MIDI soundfonts having terrible strings. 22:42:50 Dunno. 22:43:14 -!- inurinternet has joined. 22:43:18 Lemme know if you find one with good strings; I need to bother installing soundfonts for my MP3 player. 22:43:24 (hooray, Rockbox) 22:44:50 Chorium is good with everything /except/ strings. Actually, it's strings aren't bad, they just assume legato. 22:44:55 Well, legato and largo, really. 22:45:18 Which is great and all, except that Opus 9 breaks its assumptions. 22:45:18 The cello in Chorium takes roughly six minutes to get from "started playing a note" to full volume. 22:45:35 Wow. 22:48:04 ? 22:48:25 6 minutes? 22:49:37 Exaggeration for emphasis :P 23:03:59 I don't know what format media-convert.com uses, but it would be perfect if the violins weren't inaudibly quiet. 23:11:52 ehird 23:11:57 its not points free programming 23:12:08 i said full programs, not fill functions 23:14:54 pikhq: http://w5.media-convert.com/convert/index.php?pg=getmyfile&key=-1&xid=bdtmhple 23:15:04 Pretty good, although the violin isn't great. 23:15:45 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 23:16:21 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:35 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 23:17:41 GregorR: Appears to be an ogg. 23:18:09 That would be because it is an ogg. 23:18:21 Oh, indeed. 23:20:17 Bleh, somebody bringing this up really makes me want to somehow find an ensemble to perform it. 23:21:02 Who here plays violin, viola, or cello? 23:21:09 i kind of. 23:21:13 but not good enough. 23:22:57 * CESSMASTER ← cellist 23:23:12 * pikhq <- singer. 23:23:18 * oerjan plays violent -----### 23:23:34 So if you need someone to help perform "Kill Yourself", I'm your man. :P 23:23:41 "i don't know how anybody can complain about too many violins on television" 23:23:49 -!- coppro has joined. 23:23:57 reminds me of the line from Misty 23:24:03 "walk my way / and a thousand violins begin to play" 23:24:10 nnuuuurrgh 23:24:25 RUN! RUN AWAY! 23:26:46 love can be very emotionally painful 23:26:51 and that line conveys that wonderfully 23:27:02 perhaps too well! 23:27:38 /~(_)~\ 23:27:38 ( :=: =====II 23:27:38 \_(~)_/ 23:28:17 what 23:28:22 it's a violin 23:28:25 sorta 23:29:10 looks more like a god knows what 23:29:33 looks like some shit i saw at the BEMF 23:29:55 my friend ended up buying that gamba he saw there 23:30:02 heh 23:30:20 does he have aspergers? 23:30:41 no, he's just a little bit odd 23:30:47 he's a musicology major 23:31:02 i always wanted to do that 23:31:19 until i realized how retarded it is 23:31:48 i was at this concert at a guitar society 23:31:54 and everyone was, like, playing guitars 23:32:10 and this one guy had this fucked up thing with an extra neck that had ~20 sympathetic strings 23:32:16 hahaha 23:32:31 and he played the most boring shit ever 23:32:45 with his eyes closed and great passion 23:33:01 for like ten minutes. really boring stuff that sounded like early music 23:33:08 lmao 23:33:13 don't think the sympathetic strings added anything either 23:33:18 guitars are for chumps that don't want to play a lute 23:34:04 oh man i saw a keyed harp there too 23:34:09 what a silly instrument 23:36:53 OK, I uploaded the score in .pdf. 23:36:57 Now get playin' :P 23:37:16 playing WHAT 23:37:35 http://codu.org/music.php // Opus 9. People brought it up again recently and it annoys me that it's MIDI :P 23:43:17 -!- CESSMASTER has changed nick to ACMESTRESS. 23:43:26 :/ 23:43:30 -!- ACMESTRESS has changed nick to MACTRESSES. 23:43:47 I liked ACME Stress 23:46:47 -!- MACTRESSES has changed nick to ASSCRESTME.