00:00:31 use geothermal cooling! 00:00:47 bury your radiator under a pond 00:01:06 bsmntbombdood: i'll just have a huge pump with a section of tube that goes into space 00:01:12 perfect 00:01:14 that should cool it adequately. 00:04:12 bsmntbombdood: all the radiators seem to be designed for use w/ fans 00:04:19 duh 00:04:25 bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators 00:04:37 as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine 00:05:01 bsmntbombdood: no? 00:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:05:37 -!- nooga has joined. 00:06:26 bsmntbombdood: your silence is agreement 00:07:51 ion wind cooling would be cool 00:08:56 bsmntbombdood: passive agreement 00:12:07 bsmntbombdood: 00:12:08 Koolance Releases Its First LN2 CPU Cooler 00:12:09 The CPU-LN2 is for cooling enthusiasts using liquid nitrogen. It supports a wide range of current processors, including: Intel LGA-1366, LGA-775, AMD AM2, AM2+, AM3, and others. 00:12:17 bsmntbombdood: y/n 00:12:25 hardehar 00:12:35 bsmntbombdood: it's only $144.99 00:12:37 :) 00:12:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:12:54 00:04 ehird: bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators 00:12:54 00:04 ehird: as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine 00:12:55 00:05 ehird: bsmntbombdood: no? 00:13:05 dunno 00:13:17 don't see why not 00:13:57 that + take off case fan grill + put a lot of stuff in the loop (but not _everything_, due to a gigantic mass of wires not being appealing - the rest can be handled w/ the minimal natural airflow) 00:14:02 = 0dB 00:19:41 bsmntbombdood: amirite 00:19:45 you keep saying it won't work 00:19:47 i don't see why not 00:20:21 depends on the pump i guess 00:21:05 bsmntbombdood: ehh, you wouldn't need too much 00:23:30 00:23:49 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:31:30 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:31:34 00:31:54 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:32:06 00:32:16 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:39:19 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:41:09 ehird, lostkingdom contains an easter egg it seems 00:41:22 os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg"); 00:41:26 I don't know WHAT it is 00:41:34 just that it exists 00:42:17 AnMaster: ask your compiler 00:42:27 ehird, not good enough yet :P 00:43:10 bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly 00:43:13 AnMaster: you've said something asbout sleeping? 00:43:13 :D ehird 00:43:18 "NO" 00:43:18 coppro: vut? 00:43:19 i would hope so 00:43:20 yes 00:43:21 NO. 00:43:31 bsmntbombdood: the question is, why can't pc radiators? 00:43:34 they're basically the same 00:43:40 because they're small 00:43:41 bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly <-- part of this is due to car moving maybe? 00:43:42 that reminds me thah cooling in my mercedes-benz is broken ;C 00:43:49 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:43:50 AnMaster: ...no 00:43:54 ehird, kay 00:44:00 bsmntbombdood: i guess 00:44:03 car radiators aren't huge though 00:44:05 Cars also have free power 00:44:19 bsmntbombdood: here's the one that was mentioned: http://www.radiatorworld.com/radiatorworldfinal/displayProducts.aspx?carno=26640 00:44:24 coppro: since when? 00:44:41 well, for certain definitions of fere 00:44:43 *free 00:44:58 bsmntbombdood: ugh, that's alum 00:46:10 so? 00:46:16 bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks 00:46:21 + aluminum radiator 00:46:24 = CORROSION AHOY 00:49:33 HARUMPH 00:55:48 " Cars also have free power" " well, for certain definitions of free" 00:55:58 free (adj): With cost 00:56:03 heh 00:56:07 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 00:56:18 Free is cost! 00:56:37 If it's free, the cost is spitting on the American flag! 00:56:37 Pax is unpax! 00:56:48 .NET is free! 00:57:02 * pikhq lights the flag on fire 00:58:18 pikhq: is defacing the flag actually illegal in the us of a? 00:58:26 ehird: No. 00:58:33 There were attempts to make it illega. 00:58:37 i've heard somewhere that it was 00:58:37 ah 00:58:43 Illegal, rather. 00:59:14 No. There was a "suggested code of conduct" passed by Congress regarding the flag, but it's a suggestion, not law. 00:59:26 And that was passed back in the 1800s. 00:59:35 (I think a bit after the Civil War) 01:04:01 all i want is a gigantic radiator 01:04:05 is that too much to ask for 01:04:31 YES. 01:04:49 * pikhq sets the Union Jack on fire for that one 01:05:10 a 01:06:12 bsmntbombdood: which of these sounds more radiating to you: 01:06:16 Feser TFC Xchanger - Monsta Extreme Radiator 420/360 01:06:17 Feser X-Changer QUAD 480 Extreme Performance Radiator 01:06:19 the former costs more 01:06:23 $100 more 01:06:23 :P 01:06:55 Fuck it. 01:07:01 pikhq: fuck what 01:07:08 * pikhq sets the EU and UN flags on fire. Piss off everyone. 01:07:14 Europeans more so. 01:07:21 never heard of em 01:09:54 bsmntbombdood: the reserator seems to be the best fanless copper radiator you can get 01:10:39 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 01:11:25 bsmntbombdood: http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=InnovaKonvect 01:11:28 Standard: 01:11:28 (hxlxw): 35x23x5cm 01:11:29 Weight: 4.76 pounds 01:11:31 Dissipates approx. 80 watts 01:11:33 MAXI: 01:11:35 (hxlxw): 45x33x5cm !! 01:11:37 Weight 10.5 pounds !! 01:11:39 Dissipates approx. 125 watts 01:11:41 looks like two chained reserators is the way to go... 01:11:51 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:13:41 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 01:15:35 bsmntbombdood: 'nother one that does 130W 01:15:40 nothing >=200W yet 01:15:41 AnMaſter: Þou art known as AnMaſter. How dareſt thee? 01:15:53 where did you see the reservator dissipating 200w? 01:16:02 bsmntbombdood: user anecdotes 01:16:19 's all you have to go on, really 01:16:39 the systems I've seen people use w/ them generally look about 200w too 01:16:40 argh 01:16:42 need testing 01:17:22 bsmntbombdood: yeah, well, it's consistent 01:18:06 buy all of them, a well calibrated heating element, and some high quality thermometers 01:18:09 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:18:15 bsmntbombdood: and a new wallet 01:18:49 bsmntbombdood: specs say 1,274m2 dissipation area 01:18:53 which I assume means 1.274m2 01:19:09 giggle 01:19:16 bsmntbombdood: what 01:19:29 1274 m**2 01:19:36 yeah 01:19:39 best. radiator. evarr 01:21:50 bsmntbombdood: my ass says that the reserator dissipates 2345872389729384W 01:21:58 it is a very accurate ass 01:22:10 accura-tass 01:22:55 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:22:58 bsmntbombdood: user anecdote says that it can cool a core 2 quad @ 2.66 plus two nvidia 8600GTSes at load below 27C 01:23:07 let's look at dem TDPs 01:23:27 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THEY DON'T SAY 01:23:30 i have to GOOGLE. 01:24:39 bsmntbombdood: you find out the heat of a 8600GTS 01:24:46 and I'll find out the heat of a core 2 quad @ 2.66ghz 01:24:52 TEAM WURK 01:25:04 65W 01:25:32 Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 22 Amp Amps.) 01:25:32 Minimum 450 Watt for SLI mode system. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.) 01:25:35 An available 6 pin PCI-E power connector (hard drive power dongle to PCI-E 6 pin adapter included with card) 01:25:38 bsmntbombdood: how much heat do you think 01:25:43 totally unhelpful specs 01:26:08 do they need the extra power connector? 01:26:19 no idea 01:26:23 they don't seem like how-powered cards though 01:26:27 mainstream 8 generation 01:26:29 circa 2007 01:26:32 *high-powered 01:26:53 $200 price range 01:26:56 when they were released 01:27:18 aha 01:27:20 power consumption 01:27:25 argh 01:27:27 "entire system" 01:27:28 fuck you 01:28:10 bsmntbombdood: ah a low-powered looking system here 01:28:15 8600 GTS XXX, which I guess means overclocked 01:28:17 198W at load 01:28:28 bsmntbombdood: so shall we say 40W for the un-overclocked one? 01:28:48 bsmntbombdood: 65W + 40W*2(=145W) = 210W 01:28:54 nvida says 110w for the 8800 01:29:00 bsmntbombdood: 8600 gts 01:29:03 way different 01:29:07 8800 was high-end 01:29:09 this is mainstream 01:29:42 er wait 01:29:47 right 01:29:58 bsmntbombdood: shall we say 40W? 01:30:02 it's probably a low estimate 01:30:04 too low 01:30:14 bsmntbombdood: well 01:30:23 bsmntbombdood: if we say 40W, the cpu + 2 graphics cards = 210W 01:30:30 so the reserator can dissipate *at least* 210W 01:30:37 leaving the components below 27C 01:30:53 bsmntbombdood: 01:30:54 "Struggles to work with the newer 2 x nVidia 8800 as they just got too hot over 61 degrees celsius out of game reset in game RED HOT no overclock uses as the cards would have gone into meltdown! " 01:31:00 110*2 = 220W 01:31:00 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:31:12 so it dissipates at least 210W, but below 220W 01:31:30 if we're conservative and say 210, that's 420W if you chain two together 01:31:38 less than the i7+295 = 429W 01:31:40 phooey 01:32:14 bsmntbombdood: best route is probably a copper car radiator 01:32:18 yes 01:32:25 but you didn't want to diy 01:32:40 bsmntbombdood: that's w/ thinking i can use 2 reserators 01:32:46 i don't really want to buy three 01:33:01 haha 01:33:07 this is awesome 01:33:10 what 01:33:22 so grepping all of my irc logs before - 2-3 minutes 01:33:23 bsmntbombdood: 'big truck radiators' 01:33:28 yes? 01:33:33 grepping all my irc logs now, on the ssd...12 seconds 01:33:38 :) 01:33:42 ssds are awesome 01:33:44 not even cached 01:33:54 remember when you thought the ssd wasn't worth the money? 01:33:55 me too 01:33:57 the second time you grep, 1.1 seconds 01:33:58 fun times 01:34:23 bsmntbombdood: argh car radiator shops suck they all sort by brand 01:34:32 I DON'T CARE ABOUT BRAND JUST GIMME A RADIATOR 01:34:33 ehird: junkyard 01:34:43 bsmntbombdood: i don't know of a junkyard nearby 01:34:47 and I need copper 01:34:52 copper car radiators are rare 01:35:06 haha this will be so ghetto 01:35:17 mounting a big car radiator on the wall of some unused stairs 01:35:25 it may even be ghettotastic 01:36:09 bsmntbombdood: how much do you think a car radiator can dissipate fanlessly? 01:36:11 i bet ~300W 01:36:31 so... i'll probably need two 01:36:35 if that's accurate. 01:37:09 bsmntbombdood: how much do you think? 01:37:58 no clue 01:40:14 bsmntbombdood: maybe i should use quantum cooling 01:40:30 if (!magically_evaporated(heat)) destroy_universe(); 01:41:24 bsmntbombdood: i can't find any pure-copper radiators :<<<<<<<<<<<< 01:41:54 so? 01:41:59 why are you set on copper 01:42:05 bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks 01:42:25 spell it with me: g-a-l-v-a-n-i-c c-o-r-r-o-s-i-o-n 01:42:25 | | | 01:42:26 /| /'\ |\ 01:43:24 make an open-air radiator 01:43:31 bsmntbombdood: what 01:43:35 a large angled sheet 01:43:40 lol 01:44:11 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:44:24 a friend just had an interesting idea for an esolang 01:45:54 basically, the language would be legalese. 01:46:38 heh 01:46:48 o 01:47:05 -o-o-o- 01:47:05 | | 01:47:05 /| /| 01:47:15 myndzi: stop that 01:47:17 it's obnoxious 01:47:17 THEY'RE HOLDING HIS HEAD! 01:47:29 johnkeilloh@aol.com 01:47:32 err 01:47:35 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_lawyers_does_it_take_to_change_a_lightbulb%3F 01:47:38 stupid copy-paste 01:47:42 johnkeilloh@aol.com 01:47:52 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:50:52 coppro: funny, but poorly done. 01:52:09 yeah, the original was better 01:52:16 that was the one that popped up on google 01:52:19 lawyers do not define their terms and then fail to use them uniformly in place of "part of the ..." 01:52:27 party of the* 01:53:06 and actually, when they were paid by the word, they probably would have 01:53:14 no, they dont. 01:53:41 exchange: you give me a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude 01:53:43 any takers? 01:54:18 no. 01:54:58 fuck you 01:55:13 its not for not wanting to 01:55:23 its just that were all on the internet, you see 01:55:33 psygnisfive: exchange: you help me find a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude 01:56:31 psygnisfive: very possible! 01:56:36 craigslist.co.uk 01:56:52 psygnisfive: cl isn't in my city. 01:57:00 because its not a city. 01:57:03 so? maybe the person will ship! 01:57:05 its a town. a small abbey town. 01:57:13 psygnisfive: that's not helping me to find one :) 01:57:40 oooh alright 01:57:40 http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/?_nkw=copper+radiator&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=copper+car+radiator&_osacat=0 01:57:41 :| 01:57:58 psygnisfive: none of those tell me how much heat they dissipate :) 01:58:05 look up the specs! 01:58:38 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-5-GT-TURBO-FULL-COPPER-RADIATOR-CORE_W0QQitemZ390055782501QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad122e865&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 okay Renault 5 GT Turbo google for that oh just more sellings of the copper core. 01:58:41 impossible 01:59:50 call renault! 01:59:58 mmmmmnope 02:00:15 oh well! 02:05:43 ehird: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quinn-Adagio-QS7002CP-Copper-Colour-Designer-Radiator_W0QQitemZ280347991448QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air?hash=item41460add98&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 02:06:25 bsmntbombdood: 1239W? 02:06:27 impressive 02:06:46 bsmntbombdood: except 02:06:50 bsmntbombdood: it's 6 feet tall 02:07:01 stairs aren't high enough to fit something 6 feet tall on a wall 02:07:21 uh 02:07:27 thats not a car radiator tho 02:07:36 psygnisfive: it's a radiator w/ high wattage, and it's copper 02:07:42 ..... 02:07:43 psygnisfive: good enough to watercool a computer. 02:07:45 YOU SAID CAR RADIATOR 02:07:47 yes 02:07:50 because car radiators have high wattage 02:07:53 so i looked for car radiators. 02:08:07 had you TOLD ME you wanted just ANY radiator that wouldnt been different! :| 02:08:11 :P 02:08:14 ebay has lots of those. 02:08:21 psygnisfive: right then,. 02:08:23 that. 02:08:24 *. 02:09:24 bsmntbombdood: how did you search for it? 02:09:30 "copper radiator" 02:09:35 i said bsmntbombdood 02:09:38 so? 02:12:20 bsmntbombdood: 02:14:45 bsmntbombdood: that radiator doesn't list its water capacity 02:14:55 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 02:15:01 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 02:15:36 ehird, why the hell do you need such a large radiator for a computer? 02:15:48 psygnisfive: ~429 watts of height, buddy. 02:15:54 what 02:15:55 psygnisfive: he wants it passive 02:16:01 two zalman reserators only dissipate 420W total 02:16:07 so I need to go more heavy-duty 02:16:12 but yeah 02:16:13 no fans. 02:16:16 i see 02:16:30 why do you want to eliminate fans?? 02:16:44 psygnisfive: one word 02:16:45 Noise. 02:16:57 If I wanted fans, I'd go for air cooling, not water cooling. 02:16:57 water pumps make noise 02:17:07 psygnisfive: Yes, that's why I'm putting it in the next room 02:17:15 Also, good water pumps are inaudible from a very short distance 02:17:17 oh i see 02:17:18 Much more inaudible than fans 02:17:21 youre crazy 02:17:30 and more so, your parents are crazy for letting you do this 02:17:38 seriously, wtf are you doing that fan noise is an issue? :P 02:17:45 psygnisfive: perhaps— but the only moving parts in my system will be one measly pump and a HD for data (os on solid state drive) 02:17:50 also, thinking :) 02:18:06 ... 02:18:07 lmfao 02:18:12 youre crazy 02:18:16 i have very good hearing 02:18:30 uh huh :P 02:18:34 i can hear little noises from the living room - separated by an awful lot of space, and a thick wall 02:18:35 "thinking" 02:18:35 After this, he's making an anechoic chamber. 02:18:36 lol. 02:18:40 :p 02:18:41 yes, thinking 02:18:47 psygnisfive: also. 02:18:50 SO MUCH THINKING TO BE DONE 02:19:00 a computer with no fans at all? the geek factor is high. 02:19:50 pikhq, hes going to be doing thinking, you know. 02:20:06 anechoic chambers actually aren't very good for you 02:20:07 i want an anechoic chamer 02:20:13 for being in for a long time 02:20:21 your body expects some noise 02:20:25 ehird: yeah, you get too much thinking done 02:20:31 psygnisfive: fuck off :) 02:20:35 ;) 02:20:41 tee hee "thinking" 02:20:43 ehird you're so adorable. 02:20:48 psygnisfive: dude, it was a joke 02:20:50 get over yourself 02:20:53 bye, anyway. 02:20:55 * pikhq gets pissed at his Internet connection. Will be back when it decides to do HTTP faster than 300 baud 02:21:13 you know it wasnt a joke, ehird 02:21:30 actually, one more thing psygnisfive 02:21:43 oh dear 02:22:06 you're a mac user right? I'm buying a high-end machine. Did you know that a lot of work that goes into Macs is to silence them? If you think that's what a high-end system sounds like, you really have no idea how loud they can be. 02:22:08 bye → 02:22:21 lol 02:27:23 man. ehird needs to get fucked 02:40:25 * bsmntbombdood eats a popsicle 02:40:29 (seductively) 02:47:31 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 02:50:53 I would like to present the pinnacle of diactrics technology: ı̥̈̇̉̆̅̄̃̂́̀̐̑̒̊ 02:51:07 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 02:52:04 HE COMES 02:57:47 I think I see a lambda 02:58:01 coppro: No lambda. 02:58:13 Just 15 Unicode combining characters. 03:14:23 -!- calamari has joined. 03:34:28 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 03:36:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:32:14 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:56:24 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 05:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense. 05:15:32 a tense situation 05:15:36 (I wanted to imply that I expect that the action has not stopped and will continue into the future.) 05:15:43 Yeah. 05:36:21 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:55:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:56:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:12:26 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 06:13:23 -!- olsner has joined. 06:23:09 anyone here ever read the whole of the human genome? 06:23:44 Nah. 06:23:57 Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia. 06:24:16 hm! 06:33:35 How big is the human genome? 06:33:56 Couple gigs? 06:33:58 a few megs. 06:34:21 A few megs? Gosh, that's tiny. 06:34:26 yes, it is. 06:34:52 You could read a few megs of text in... not all that long. 06:34:59 ofcourse it depends on how you describe it 06:35:09 Two bits per base? 06:35:10 in ACGT form? or in gene form? 06:35:30 What is "gene form"? 06:35:34 like 06:35:41 FOXP2 is the name of a gene 06:35:46 So a list of the names of genes? 06:35:51 which is probably hundreds or thousands of base pairs long 06:36:07 I'm guessing that's what the few megs number is. 06:36:17 There's really no point unless you're also reading the genes themselves. 06:37:12 Which is, of course, a completely reasonable thing to do. You look at the GATTACA, translate that into amino acids, and imagine how that would fold. 06:37:25 teehee gattaca 06:37:26 :3 06:40:34 Sure enough. A freaking MySQL dump is a few megs. 06:42:00 ey? 06:42:33 Some site has a searchable index of genomes. They publish MySQL dumps. 06:42:39 ahh 06:44:24 i cant find the genome at all 06:44:50 there used to be a place where you could just download a text file with the whole thing in it 06:44:54 but i guess not anymore 06:48:20 There's apparently a DNA sequence called piggyBac. 06:48:28 It's a transposon. 06:52:30 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:30:07 -!- whtspc has joined. 07:44:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:44:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:45:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:19 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 08:21:45 21:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense. 08:21:49 21:15:32 a tense situation 08:22:14 good pun 08:22:16 what we in the business call a "pun" 08:22:43 no, kerlo didn't (i am pretty sure that tense has the form "has been -ing", which he did not use). Also, Gracenotes, i must sue you for patent infringement. nothing personal. 08:25:43 22:23:57 Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia. 08:26:03 * oerjan recalls doing most of the "A" volume when young 08:26:16 alas, interest was too fleeting... 08:27:34 (technically, the A-BEM volume, iirc) 08:28:30 ha, crappy encyclopedia 08:28:32 also, a lot of pointer chasing. 08:28:40 the first volume of mine is AAA-AAB 08:28:53 ooh 08:29:09 er, wait 08:29:17 * oerjan swats bsmntbombdood -----### 08:29:24 DOES NOT COMPUTE 08:30:12 why not? 08:31:09 no way is there an entire volume of things starting with AA 08:31:52 especially as your volume doesn't even _get_ to aardvark or aachen 08:32:01 like i said, it's large 08:32:54 aaa is even more dubious. although i suppose aab could take up more than half of the volume. 08:33:03 hm... 08:35:34 It's not an English encyclopedia. 08:35:45 It's an Aaabaaabaabababian encyclopedia. 08:35:54 aaa. 08:36:38 so the next volume is BAA-BAB, and there are only two of them. 08:36:49 oh wait 08:36:56 No, there's a short BBA-BBB volume. 08:37:03 forgot ABA 08:37:07 Oh yeah :P 08:37:11 ABA-ABBA 08:37:26 although it only has a single obscure band under the latter 08:38:39 so, three volumes. 08:38:43 er, four 08:39:03 nope, there's a full 17,576 volumes 08:40:15 we don't BELIEVE you 08:41:53 orn.org is available. 09:06:44 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:08:25 -!- Dewi has joined. 09:15:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:17:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:19:10 wow, wtf is up with the BF Joust scoreboard? 09:19:26 I don't get how defend6 and 7 can be so high up, with defend9 low down 09:19:54 and nothing scoring above 60, which is also rather suspicious 09:22:02 clearly someone reversed the polarity. and then took the average. 09:22:11 * oerjan crawls back under his rock. 09:22:26 well, that would explain why the points are no longer integers 09:22:42 defend9 is meant to be pretty polarity-independent, though 09:22:53 the only bit that really cares about polarity is the decoys 09:22:56 also, average over tape length 09:23:25 ah 09:23:34 but that should help defend9 even more, it doesn't like excessively short tapes 09:23:39 so I'm a bit surprised at the results 09:23:49 so there may still be a bug somewhere... 09:27:34 is it still using egojoust as the interp? 09:28:08 i think so, i saw a mention by GregorR-L about wanting to keep the interp part standalone 09:28:11 although, most of defend9's losses are to programs I don't recognise 09:28:25 so I suspect people have just been attacking it 09:34:52 I'm fairly certain there are no bugs. 09:35:01 The interp is still separate, it just returns a more strange integer now :P 09:35:06 yep, the results don't seem to indicate a bug to me 09:35:12 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES for the new system 09:35:16 although they are rather interesting 09:35:41 and it's rather strange to see two od myprograms that must be almost a week old by now up the top of the leaderboard 09:35:45 *two of my programs 09:35:52 obviously [-] loops have made a comeback 09:47:17 * GregorR-L wurves that people complain regardless of the changes he makes 8-D 09:47:56 I'm not complaining, just surprised 09:48:03 I like the changes 09:48:15 but am surprised at how they changed the leaderboard 09:48:40 I'll bet there's a bigger potential audience for BF Joust out there. 09:48:44 Soooomewheeeere 09:48:52 yes 09:49:03 people who never really got into corewar, for instance 09:52:31 GregorR-L: have you sped up egojoust? or will I get shot if I make another version of defend9? 09:52:51 I sped it up since it really killed it. It's not megafast, but it's fine. 09:53:00 ok 09:53:20 The main problem isn't the base speed, but the sheer number of runs for every configuration, at this point :P 09:59:50 (Oh, and it does expand ({})%, though it doesn't expand ()*, so ({})%10000000 is to be avoided :P ) 10:00:10 egojoust seems buggy on nested ({})% 10:00:19 I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 10:00:34 admittedly, there are some negative RLEs due to a bug in my generation script, but I don't think that code often gets run 10:09:31 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*20 10:09:38 Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.1 10:09:42 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*21 10:09:50 Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.5 10:10:16 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+]]>)*21 10:10:24 Score for ais523_speedy0: 17.3 10:10:58 * ais523 wonders why defend9 loses to that 10:15:07 ais523: I fixed that bug a while ago. 10:15:15 ais523: Or at least I think I did ... the nested ({}) bug that is. 10:15:25 ah, ok 10:18:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 10:19:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:23:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:26:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 10:26:51 I haven't seen BFJoust before. Where are the rules? 10:28:54 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF%20Joust 10:29:02 Thanks. 10:29:33 Unsurprisingly, we're using the version ais made. 10:31:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 10:31:20 technically doing all forms of 10:31:21 inversion should be unnecessary, but they're done for ... "completeness" 10:31:37 GregorR-L: ^ um, you mean "stupidity"? 10:31:46 Yes. 10:31:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:31:54 Hence the ellipses and question mark :P 10:31:54 reverting one of them is enough... 10:32:17 Yeah, I didn't think about it when I first wrote it, then I went "oh yeah, 128 is 128 away from 0 in either direction" 10:32:30 But I'm too lazy to change it right now, and it makes no actual difference except time, so *eh* 10:33:01 doubling time that is 10:33:46 2x is irrelevant. 10:34:56 I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 <-- i thought ([)* was illegal 10:35:21 GregorR-L: do you support ([)* ? 10:35:47 oerjan: Yes, although it oughtn't. 10:35:50 It is illegal. 10:35:54 But it works :P 10:36:01 without expansion? 10:36:34 because if so you could just turn (a{b}c)%n -> (a)*n b (c)*n 10:36:57 ()* is expanded if it includes [ or ], ATM. 10:37:02 i see 10:37:31 because the only reason to have ({})% is because ()* requires balanced []'s 10:38:10 GregorR-L: it wouldn't be bad to allow ([)* if you could do it efficiently 10:38:35 oerjan: I'm only allowing ([) because I'm not handling the situation efficiently in general :P 10:38:43 ic 10:40:26 !info 10:40:26 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 10:43:57 argh! the horizontal scrollbar of hg's file browser is stupid! 10:44:16 ? 10:44:50 it's _not_ in the visible part of the _window_, i have to scroll the main window to _see_ the inner scrollbar! 10:45:09 Are you using some wacko browser? Super-low resolution? 10:45:14 IE 10:45:33 Ah, wacko browser. 10:45:42 oh... 10:45:50 the problem is not the browser 10:45:59 the problem is my 1280x800 laptop screen 10:46:14 My laptop screen is 1280x800, and I have no issues :P 10:46:44 well it's only an issue for that one long line in egojoust.c 10:47:17 well, two long lines 10:47:52 Oh, lookie there. 10:48:01 When I adjusted my font, I managed to produce stupiditude. 10:48:19 also i like a fairly large font 10:48:24 Yup, that's fekky. 10:48:27 *eh* 10:50:02 I ate a probably-not-insubstantial part of a mosquito today. 10:50:07 ok maximizing the window helps too 10:50:14 eew! 10:50:29 My arm itched but my hands were full, so I instinctively bit to scratch. 10:50:48 Suffice to say that when your arm itches because the mosquito is still there, that's not a good idea. 10:51:05 GregorR-L: i like to keep a small part of the irc window visible under my browser, so i can see if there is activity 10:51:55 Makes sense *shrugs* 10:52:18 GregorR-L: well it's protein! 10:52:40 It tasted mostly like (presumably my own) blood, surprisingly sweet, with a little bit of bitterness. 10:53:22 oerjan, hi 10:53:27 hi AnMaster 10:58:27 GregorR-L: huh, it looks to me like you have most of the ingredients for doing (balanced) ({})% and ()* without expansion already - you keep a stack of counters 11:02:19 it is irritating when you find totally messed up logic in programs you wrote yourself... 11:02:39 it is even more irritating when the incorrect logic actually works too. 11:06:09 !help 11:06:10 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod 11:06:33 GregorR-L: hey, yodawg got cut off! 11:08:21 !userinterps 11:08:21 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google gregor hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg 11:09:03 bfbignum? 11:09:09 in what language is it written 11:09:18 !show bfbignum 11:09:19 bf (sending via DCC) 11:09:24 in bf? 11:09:26 heh 11:09:29 bf, clearly 11:09:38 wonder who made it 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; Keymaker's brainfuck interpreter 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; the memory cells can hold any value from zero to infinity 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; written by Keymaker 11:10:41 hm 11:10:52 can they hold actual infinity? ;P 11:12:27 ask keymaker 11:12:54 [+] 11:12:57 !help asm 11:12:58 Sorry, I have no help for asm! 11:13:04 TRY THAT EGOBOT 11:13:37 !bfbignum .[+.] 11:13:47 wait that is dead 11:13:51 !bfbignum +.[+.] 11:13:51 11:14:14 !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£€¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ 11:14:16 and so on 11:14:22 Slereah_: You can do inline ASM in C. 11:14:40 I closed the chat after a while 11:14:47 AnMaster: It's limited to 128K anyway :P 11:14:54 !bfbignum +.[+.] 11:14:55 11:15:01 GregorR, 128 k output? 11:15:13 Yeah 11:15:20 is that kibibyte or kilobyte? ;P 11:15:30 kibi 11:15:33 heh 11:15:38 Kibble-bite. 11:15:52 Gracenotes, how many kilonibbles! 11:16:01 Kibblenibbles? 11:16:12 no, kilo 11:16:18 continuity byte 11:16:29 Gracenotes, what 11:16:30 Owait 11:16:35 oerjan: You can do inline ASM in C. 11:16:38 I directed that wrong :P 11:17:49 !notecho huh? 11:17:50 huh? 11:17:56 !show notecho 11:17:57 That is not a user interpreter! 11:18:01 ... 11:18:02 ? 11:18:22 GregorR-L: it was not being a user interpreter that made me wonder... 11:18:42 !notecho Echo! Echo! 11:18:42 Echo! Echo! 11:18:45 oh wait 11:18:49 !echo Echo! 11:18:50 Echo! 11:18:54 nah 11:18:54 Oh, hahah 11:19:01 I put that there while I was testing something. 11:19:14 test as well, i assume 11:19:24 No, !echo is a userinterp 11:19:25 !show echo 11:19:26 bf ,[.,] 11:19:27 !show num 11:19:28 sadol !1 11:19:34 !num 3+3 11:19:35 1 11:19:40 !num 44 11:19:41 1 11:19:43 Some good math there. 11:19:48 whatever 11:19:50 !userinterp dc sh dc 11:19:54 !dc 1 + 1 11:20:01 Well, that was successful. 11:20:12 Oh, I don't have dc installed :P 11:20:15 !delinterp dc 11:20:15 That interpreter doesn't exist! 11:20:27 Oh, also I added it wrong. 11:20:31 Wow I rule. 11:20:39 !show show 11:20:40 That is not a user interpreter! 11:20:50 !help 11:20:51 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 11:20:58 why is show listed there 11:21:05 rather than at the beginning 11:21:43 Because it's in the hcmds directory *shrugs* 11:21:49 -!- nooga has joined. 11:21:55 !bc 2 * 1000000 11:21:56 2000000 11:22:47 !bc x=8;y=x;y*2 11:22:47 16 11:23:00 uhm 11:24:10 It's GNU bc 11:25:17 GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc 11:25:47 Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? 11:26:23 dbc: IMHO any program that took long enough to detect such things would lose while taking that time. 11:26:39 AnMaster: ... you're not Polish, you're Swedish, you're not supposed to like Reverse Polish Notation :P 11:26:47 GregorR, but I do! 11:26:55 almost as much as prefix notation 11:27:01 !bc 10/42 11:27:02 0 11:27:04 waht 11:27:05 what* 11:27:08 that isn't right 11:28:06 !bc scale=30; 10/42 11:28:06 .238095238095238095238095238095 11:28:34 !bc scale=30; s(10/42) 11:28:35 Runtime error (func=(main), adr=18): Function s not defined. 11:28:42 !bc -l scale=30; s(10/42) 11:28:43 (standard_in) 1: syntax error 11:28:45 um 11:28:50 Well, I was thinking it would start something like >+++[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ 11:28:55 GregorR, you should load the math library with -l 11:29:19 !delinterp bc 11:29:20 Interpreter bc deleted. 11:29:23 !addinterp bc sh bc -l 11:29:24 Interpreter bc installed. 11:29:28 !bc scale=30; s(10/42) 11:29:29 .235852028768310500148768462188 11:29:32 !bc scale=3000; s(10/42) 11:29:36 As soon as the decoy gets cleared, it jumps immediately to the proper response after the matching ]. 11:29:38 hm 11:29:41 that takes a bit 11:29:44 !bc scale=300; s(10/42) 11:29:45 .2358520287683105001487684621888690261219855174394651629650889653465\ 11:30:02 why the line break there 11:30:12 Who knows :P 11:30:16 and I guess the 3000 decimals one isn't ready yet 11:30:26 GregorR, still I want dc ;/ 11:30:40 10 2 / p is so much easier to read than 10/2 11:30:47 Oh add it yourself. 11:30:58 Of course this assumes you can set up a decoy such that each combination of program, array length, and inversion zeroes it at a slightly different time. Which may not be possible. And of course after a while you suspect that you're dealing with a purely defensive program and then other steps would be required. 11:30:59 GregorR-L, you said it wasn't installed? 11:31:21 It wasn't, then I installed it and bc :P 11:31:25 ah 11:32:13 GregorR, how do the interpreter see end of input 11:32:23 EOF right? 11:32:27 Yes 11:32:27 nothing strange there? 11:32:33 No 11:32:34 !addinterp dc sh dc 11:32:34 Interpreter dc installed. 11:32:39 !dc 10 2 / p 11:32:40 5 11:32:43 !dc 10 42 / p 11:32:44 0 11:32:46 fff 11:32:49 :P 11:33:18 !dc 200 k 10 42 / p 11:33:19 .23809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523\ 11:33:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus?"). 11:33:26 there we go 11:34:24 !dc 16o 16p 11:34:25 10 11:34:27 :) 11:34:38 GregorR-L, can you do that with bc at all? 11:35:03 (set output radix to 16, thus printing in hexdecimal) 11:35:13 Probably *shrugs* 11:35:57 !help 11:35:58 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dc dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodaw 11:36:06 GregorR-L, you truncated yoda 11:36:08 ohh 11:36:28 when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again? 11:36:39 Hopefully never? :P 11:36:46 !yoda May the force be with you 11:36:50 meh 11:36:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:36:57 GregorR-L, pretty sure it exists 11:36:59 ais523, hi 11:37:17 GregorR, anyway you need to handle this truncation issue 11:37:48 Yeah, !help is too long and I'm not sure what I want to do about it >_> 11:37:58 hi AnMaster 11:38:09 GregorR-L: output more than one line, maybe? 11:38:19 Bleh, not for !help :( 11:38:23 GregorR, display something like "for listing userinterpreters use !whatever", for listing special commands use !whatever 11:38:27 well 11:38:31 use a different whatever of course 11:38:41 splitting it in logical sections 11:39:04 like addinterp daemon daemons delinterp help info kill show in one group 11:39:08 (possibly a few others too) 11:39:22 oh yes "userinterps" too 11:39:25 !help adjust 11:39:25 Sorry, I have no help for adjust! 11:39:28 !adjust what 11:39:34 what is adjust 11:39:40 A language, presumably. 11:39:40 GregorR, ^ 11:39:42 ah 11:39:54 GregorR, anyway what do you think about the split group thingy? 11:40:30 With its current form that would be a GIANT pita. 11:40:36 ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss 11:40:39 However, it's probably the best idea :( 11:40:44 Since a lot of these programs have deletion loops ending in ]], there isn't a way to break out of them by setting one's flag to 0 for only one turn, after the loop has been entered. So instead the solution is presumably to keep it in the deletion loop longer by pushing the thing past 0 every time it zeroes it, and in between, going on and working on reducing the enemy flag. 11:40:56 adjust is an esolang, I think 11:41:00 dbc: yes 11:41:06 either that, or turning the flag the other way faster 11:41:11 that's how all my defend-number programs work 11:41:24 GregorR, !bfjoust should clearly not be in same group as for example !daemon. Since !daemon is one of those "meta" commands 11:41:45 GregorR, from a user viewpoint they are rather different 11:41:46 also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel 11:42:00 who would dbc bd? 11:42:01 be* 11:42:32 AnMaster: Daniel B Cristofani, one of the world's best Brainfuck programmers 11:42:40 Wouldn't that be less efficient? I'm thinking IF you actually have the other program identified, then you only need to spend one or two cycles of 256 foiling attempts to zero your flag, and the rest can be used to clear out the other flag? 11:42:44 where did I see that name recently... 11:42:44 Yeah, that's me. Thank you. 11:42:58 oh yes. in the semi-optimised output of LostKing... 11:43:02 dbc: if you have the opponent identified, efficiency doesn't matter any more 11:43:05 (in the compiler I'm working on) 11:43:18 and if you don't, reversing the direction sometimes works even if you're approximately right 11:43:36 also, it's very hard to tell loops that work like [---++] from loops that work like [....+] with BF-style observations 11:43:42 Yeah, you're right. Premature optimization etc. 11:43:45 the first probably needs several cycles foiling attempts to zero 11:43:50 [If you want to identify opponents, you should be playing FYB instead of BF Joust :P ] 11:44:33 os("\n Daniel B Cristofani (http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/)\n Jeffry Johnston (http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/)\n Ian Haberkorn (No web site)\n Javri aka Katzy (http://www.nostalgia8.org)\n\nExtra credit goes to:\n Daniel without whom this project would have been so much poorer\n Jeffry without whom this project would not have been possible\n"); 11:44:34 indeed 11:45:13 ais523, also I know that lostkingdom contains an easter egg, I don't know what it is though...: 11:45:15 os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg"); 11:45:28 * GregorR-L goes back to zleeeep. 11:45:37 AnMaster: you have LostKng's original source? 11:45:37 GregorR-L, fixed help yet? ;P 11:45:52 ais523, ... no that is from my optimised compiled C program of lostking 11:45:57 ah 11:46:02 The approach I was thinking of, which is of course useless against any new program, is to identify the program and length solely by the exact number of cycles before it zeroes your decoy. 11:46:03 ais523, I constant fold output as you know 11:46:21 dbc: with random tape length, you'd need to be a bit more clever than that 11:46:29 (or with check-all-tape-lengrhs) 11:46:31 AnMaster: yes, I know 11:46:37 I was thinking check-all. 11:46:51 some programs look identical to such analyses, though 11:47:05 e.g. defend6/7/9 will never zero your decoy at all 11:47:21 nor would vibration_fool_faster or jump2, although they've fallen off the hill 11:47:35 and many attack programs will start much the same way, so they'd be hard to tell apart 11:47:47 Yeah...after a certain time you know it's a defensive one and then you do have to do some other check. But then you have time to do so. 11:47:49 (actually, vibration_fool_faster did zero eventually, but after about 10000 cycles) 11:48:43 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+] 11:48:49 * ais523 wonders how it would do on the present hill 11:48:51 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 12.2 11:48:59 and the answer is "not very well" 11:49:03 heh 11:49:08 how times change 11:49:45 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000 11:49:49 wait, that isn't vff 11:49:51 just vibration 11:50:02 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 10.6 11:50:19 strangely, no draws 11:50:25 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127.(-+)*50000 11:50:35 if that's different, I think I hit a bug in egojoust 11:50:40 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 11.3 11:50:42 or maybe not 11:50:54 heh, loads of draws now 11:51:06 egojoust must count a program as losing if it times out with its flag on 0 11:51:34 !bfjoust fool_faster >>>>>>>>>+[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+] 11:51:41 Score for ais523_fool_faster: 4.2 11:51:49 yay, that was rubbish 11:52:57 !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*15([(+)*19[-]]>)*14[[-]][[-]] 11:53:05 Score for ais523_speedy19: 11.7 11:53:30 still last, and it loses to the programs it's meant to beat... 11:53:51 !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*10([(+)*19[-]]>)*19[[-]][[-]] 11:53:58 Score for ais523_speedy19: 20.8 11:54:17 ah, better 11:58:59 still not /good/, but I like to have a few speedies up there to get rid of the really slow programs 12:14:43 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky."). 12:22:08 p[-1]+=1; 12:22:08 (other code, not using p[-1]) 12:22:10 p[-1]+=255; 12:22:13 ais523, ^ 12:22:16 from lostkingdom 12:22:25 AnMaster: a bug in in-between? 12:22:32 does p change in between? 12:22:38 ais523, it doesn't 12:22:45 possibly the use of p[-1] has been optimised out there 12:22:58 do you keep rerunning your optimisation templates until none of them match/ 12:23:02 that's what I do in OIL 12:23:02 since there were some loops -> polynomial conversion 12:23:13 ais523, I keep rerunning all the passes until the tree doesn't change any more 12:23:19 ais523, since not all passes are simple matches 12:23:25 like for example the constant propagator 12:23:26 ok 12:23:39 well, in C-INTERCAL I do constant propagation by pattern matching 12:23:46 anyway I optimise away those two p[-1] accesses now 12:23:59 ais523, well constant/copy propagation 12:24:10 p[0]=p[2]; 12:24:17 p[1]=p[0]; 12:24:23 I propagate that copy there 12:24:25 so it ends up as 12:24:28 p[0]=p[2]; 12:24:30 p[1]=p[2]; 12:25:31 ais523, anyway it is done by building a dict with offset as key as I go along. I plan a pass that converts things to dependency graphs and then re-serialises stuff back to the parse tree at the end. 12:25:48 this would allow me to do some stuff that is infeasible currently 12:26:29 ais523, anyway currently I'm working on making the shifter handle polynomials fully. So it can sort other instructions relative them. 12:26:44 well, I'd better go off to an exam 12:26:47 cya 12:26:52 so bye for now, I'll be back later 12:26:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:27:10 btw, that p[-1] pattern happens quite a few times in lostking 12:27:31 always in code related to output long descriptions it seems 12:45:46 Rewriting a compiler for a BFBasic subset that will cut lostkingdom's length dramatically has been on my to-do list for years. I'm a big procrastinator. 12:46:14 dbc, you have the original source? 12:46:17 mhm 12:47:42 Probably somewhere. 12:47:58 The current lostkingdom in bf contains some dead loops btw. 12:48:06 Not surprised. 12:48:10 heh 12:48:52 I was guessing I could cut the length in half, at least. 12:49:06 it is however rather easy to optimise it, while something like that mandelbrot.b program (hand written iirc) is a lot harder to optimise. 12:49:32 every [-] is gold worth for an optimising BF->anything compiler ;P 12:51:19 AnMaster: what target are you considering for "anything"? ;) 12:51:36 lifthrasiir, anything but outputting again to bf? ;P 12:51:46 haha 12:51:56 bf-to-bf optimiser could do a lot of stuff on lostkingdom though... 12:52:37 dbc, any idea why LostKng.b starts with this rather silly BF code: [-][.] 12:52:41 :) 12:53:01 it it some sort of sanity test for the compiler/interpreter? 12:53:43 Maybe it's meant to say "This code produced with BFBASIC" :) 12:53:59 oh hm 12:55:00 it would be interesting to get character frequency for lostking. I suspect that < and > would be the most common ones... 12:56:27 (while read -r -n 1 ch; do echo $ch; done < examples/LostKng.b) | sort -n | uniq -c 12:56:29 * AnMaster waits 12:56:42 far from the fastest way to do it... 12:57:53 http://pastebin.ca/1443451 12:57:55 are the results 12:58:01 not sure why there is a @ there... 12:58:11 and those blanks are probably newlines 12:58:56 oh and interesting. Overall the program is balanced it seemd 12:58:57 seems* 12:59:30 (not in any useful for optimising sense) 12:59:48 In what sense then? 13:00:01 same number of > and < in the program 13:00:18 Okay. Are there the same number of > and < within matched [] also? 13:00:23 no 13:00:28 Didn't think so. 13:00:31 which is why it isn't useful to optimising :P 13:00:32 That'd be odd. 13:00:50 dbc, a bit odd that the total count match up still... 13:02:10 Not that odd. The more straightforward things to navigate variable-sized data structures tend to balance, and then if BFBASIC decided to leave the pointer back at point 0 for some reason...which wouldn't be that surprising, though useless... 13:02:39 as far as I can tell there are no dead <<<<< at the end of the program 13:02:58 well, maybe there is, but not easily detectable from a quick glance 13:04:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:04:22 Maybe they're not totally dead. I don't remember how the whole goto thing was implemented but maybe it actually looks at cell 0. 13:05:47 ah 13:06:11 dbc, have you seen that gcc-bf thing ais523 is working on? BF backend for GCC. 13:06:23 I haven't. 13:06:24 don't think it is uploaded anywhere atm (due to hosting issues) 13:06:33 but it produces even more verbose code. 13:06:40 for a simple hello world 13:07:16 (due to stdio brining in atexit, which used malloc iirc) 13:08:07 in a special run length encoding of bf, it is 434K. I haven't seen it fully expanded... Don't think it would be a good idea to try to fully expand it :D 13:08:37 :) 13:09:36 dbc, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/hworld1.bfrle 13:09:44 Like Von Neumann's self-reproducing automaton, or the number that's the subject of Gödel's theorem, or... :) 13:09:48 AnMaster: that's not a good idea, look at this: 13:09:49 (code starts here) 13:09:49 <*12897+*7 13:09:51 ;) 13:09:52 *44 means "the previous instruction 44 times 13:10:00 lifthrasiir, yeah indeed 13:10:11 the code before that is just setup of tape 13:10:19 to set every third cell to 1 13:10:21 and some other stuff 13:12:02 lifthrasiir, I wonder what "(%999999999 Assertion error)" is there for 13:12:42 lifthrasiir, hm... >*393216 13:12:50 heck, 13:13:03 so it contains the whole C standard library? 13:13:09 lifthrasiir, not the whole 13:13:11 just some modules 13:13:16 stdio, atexit, malloc 13:13:21 necessary one, of course. 13:13:47 that could be debated 13:14:21 >*12883[-<*12889+>*6+>*12883] <*12883[->*12883+<*12883] >*12889 13:14:22 wow 13:14:31 ha, 13:14:54 lifthrasiir, it isn't hot on locality of reference I guess ;P 13:15:31 i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws 13:15:43 hell, why did i write that code? -_- 13:16:05 lifthrasiir, and why in that shape? 13:16:21 lifthrasiir, those are some HUGE eyebrows? 13:16:40 or are they antennas? 13:16:49 AnMaster: that's Tsukamoto Tenma, some random female anime character. 13:16:54 mhm 13:17:08 lifthrasiir, is that really valid python? 13:17:12 yes! 13:17:20 lifthrasiir, what about indention... 13:17:27 the whole source code is in the single, concatenated line. 13:17:41 you unpack it somehow? 13:17:45 yes 13:18:01 anyway i cannot understand me 5 years ago still... maybe i had too much spare time. 13:31:32 -!- Corun has joined. 13:47:01 -!- nooga has quit. 14:09:34 lifthrasiir, do you think it is a good idea to unroll ALL repeat loops? 14:09:52 currently I only do it for ones containing only set, add and such 14:09:54 AnMaster: all? 14:10:15 lifthrasiir, repeat loops in mode code are loops with known iteration count, and known balanced. 14:10:22 i think it should unroll MORE loops than now, but not ALL. 14:10:23 s/mode/my 14:10:41 lifthrasiir, which ones shouldn't be unrolled then? 14:11:32 AnMaster: i'm not sure; but if the unrolling requires a solution of linear recurrence equation, it would go certainly wrong. 14:11:46 lifthrasiir, hum? 14:12:09 (for example, some loop can try to generate 1000th fibonacci number.) 14:12:43 AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few. 14:12:50 lifthrasiir, Since iteration count is constant, repeat loop is balanced, and unrolling means "duplicate body of loop iteration count times, then insert" it wouldn't generate broken code. 14:13:05 lifthrasiir, so an upper limit on iteration count rather? 14:13:12 if so, what limit 14:13:19 hmmm... 14:14:31 i think that if there is no code optimized via unrolling, do not unroll. 14:14:33 lifthrasiir, also, if it only contains sets and adds (but no copies or set_from), unrolling it always will be a gain. Since those will constant fold to pretty much the length of the loop body soon after. 14:14:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:15:03 lifthrasiir, I wouldn't know that until much later 14:15:11 I mean, for comparing "did I gain something" 14:34:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:34:29 If the loop end condition is trivial enough then you can always gain because you can get rid of the branch instruction in between each run of the loop 14:38:01 when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again? 14:38:04 May 21 14:38:16 so mercifully avoid it, you did 14:38:45 http://www.talklikeyoda.com/ 14:39:18 * oerjan is surprised it is not Like Yoda Talk Day. or something. 14:39:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:40:36 oerjan, good point! 14:41:12 although i recall reading somewhere that yoda actually only mangled a small fraction of his sentences. 14:45:02 !show help 14:45:03 That is not a user interpreter! 14:45:56 lifthrasiir, btw I solved that "back end independent output while retaining abstraction bit" for polynomials by a fold-like function 14:46:22 that takes a fun and gives it a stream of tokens. 14:46:39 it is "not really fold, but I can't find a good name for it" 14:46:59 lifthrasiir, how did you solve it for your expressions? 14:47:26 (full expressions are a lot messier to work with than simple polynomials..) 15:04:33 AnMaster: not yet. maybe i'll add some visitor later. 15:04:43 lifthrasiir, hm I called mine "walker" 15:04:59 can't see the logic behind the name visitor 15:07:44 AnMaster: essentially same, but not implemented yet 15:08:07 and i think the name visitor is more popular in java, due to its use in visitor pattern 15:08:31 (disclaimer: i don't like patterns in java, and don't like java mostly 15:09:10 * AnMaster tries to work out why this didn't swap: p[1]+=255; o(-42); 15:09:29 there is no dependency between changing offset 1 and outputting offset -42... 15:12:00 lifthrasiir, and I'm not sure what I'm doing is a "design pattern"... 15:12:06 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:12:25 just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar... 15:12:36 Hi :-) 15:13:12 I've been camping for three days. Any new techniques for BF Joust while I've been gone? Or more of the same? 15:13:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:15:14 AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few. 15:15:33 that would be nicely optimizable with some matrix multiplication, i think :D 15:15:43 oerjan, I see. 15:15:54 oerjan, tell me more? 15:15:55 ;P 15:16:07 oerjan, what would the output code be 15:16:25 AnMaster: each iteration is essentially multiplying the vector (p[3], p[4], p[5]) by a matrix 15:16:32 oerjan, oh? 15:16:39 lessee 15:16:47 oerjan, tell me what the generated C code would be 15:17:16 AnMaster: the matrix power could be constant folded 15:17:53 so something of the form 15:18:49 p3 = M33*p[3]+M34*p[4]+M35*p[5]; p4 = ...; p5 = ...; p[3] = p3; p[4] = p4; p[5] = p5 15:19:04 anyway I would constant fold that if I unrolled it anyway. 15:19:10 where the M33 - M55 constants all are 0..255, in modulo arithmetic 15:19:24 for two iterations: p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; would turn into... 15:19:35 AnMaster: indeed, but exponentiation can be done faster than iterated multiplication 15:19:50 so you would get the same result but faster 15:20:08 oerjan, mhm 15:20:33 because you can calculate M^2, M^4, ..., M^512 matrices and then multiply those 15:20:39 heh 15:20:48 oerjan, well, my compiler is slow enough anyway ;P 15:21:03 -!- impomatic has left (?). 15:22:09 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:25:28 today's IWC seems fine... 15:26:58 also, it seems like the universe might be settling down again after the recreation... 15:28:05 to the degree that having balrogs running around can be considered "settling down" 15:28:34 oerjan, indeed 15:28:39 and I read it a few hours ago 15:28:48 naturally 15:30:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:45 hm, Lightning Made of Owls has _not_ updated... 15:30:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 15:31:04 AnMaster: all just couldn't be right, could it 15:31:28 oerjan, I don't real that one 15:31:45 ic 15:31:47 read* 15:31:50 so I didn't notice it 15:33:44 square root of minus garfield contains a math error today... 15:34:00 the title doesn't match the description, because of misplaced parenthesis. 15:34:15 indeed 15:34:43 should be (Minus (Garfield Squared)) 15:35:01 yes 15:36:02 oerjan, odd no one has done anything based on that NESfield thingy 15:36:11 I would like to see some more of that 15:36:21 now what was that again 15:36:30 see the archive and look for NESfield 15:37:17 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:37:54 the license on that one is rather dubious... 15:38:53 it's not an actual parody, just sprites presented for later parody, and they are presumably all copyrighted 15:39:42 although an _actual_ parody based on those might be fine 15:40:44 hm i guess the license doesn't apply anyway since it says "original aspects" 15:43:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 15:49:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:02:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:04:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:06:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:15:39 hi ais523 16:15:46 hi 16:18:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:19:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:26:25 ais523, I'm reworking option handling. Now it shouldn't be as hard to run in_between on gccbfrle 16:26:36 still not easy but working on that 16:26:40 ok 16:36:46 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:32 is the genome just a bad, ad-hoc, genetically evolved programming language? :) 16:39:40 01:27 psygnisfive: man. ehird needs to get fucked ← legal issues there 16:41:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:44:04 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 16:45:19 ehird: Well, yes. 16:49:15 10:25 AnMaster: GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc ← you're joking 16:49:25 10:25 dbc: Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? ←yes 16:49:27 ehird, I'm not 16:49:49 !dc 200k 1 3/P 16:49:59 !dc 200k 1 3 / p 16:50:00 .33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333\ 16:50:01 hm 16:50:03 ehird: You just need to use an HP calculator. 16:50:05 ;) 16:50:10 tthat seems buggy! 16:50:13 !dc 20k 1 3 / p 16:50:13 .33333333333333333333 16:50:16 !dc 20k 1 3 /P 16:50:18 !dc 20k 1 3 / P 16:50:30 P != p... 16:50:33 ah indeed 16:50:54 yes 16:50:55 P doesn't print a newline. 16:50:57 10:41 ais523: also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel ← he's been in here for years constantly 16:51:03 pikhq, also doesn't it print as ascii? 16:51:18 !dc 10 98 P P 16:51:18 b 16:51:20 yes 16:52:06 Hmm. 16:53:39 12:15 lifthrasiir: i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws ← i am sure I have seen this before 16:53:46 or maybe just something similar 16:54:44 14:12 AnMaster: just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar... 16:54:47 idiom=design pattern 16:55:17 ehird, sure. But "design pattern" sounds like some enterprisy OOP thing... :P 16:55:55 that's because it is 16:56:18 AnMaster: although it's more like design pattern subset-of idioms 16:56:30 My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) 16:56:31 ehird, oh? 16:56:37 it didn't become as ridiculous until recently btw. ward cunningham and martin fowler have done non-crackhead design patterns stuff 16:56:51 AnMaster: In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem in software design. A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the fi 16:56:54 nal application classes or objects that are involved. 16:56:58 idioms are patterns in the language code itself 16:57:04 design patterns are patterns in how the code operates 16:57:08 hm 16:57:24 ehird, they partly overlap 16:57:29 yes 16:57:31 but != 16:58:25 16:56 dbc: My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) ← computer, you, what's the difference 16:58:36 s/ / / god I'm paranoid about whitespace 16:58:59 ehird, where was that extra whitespace? 16:58:59 ais523: that slashdot story has emacs as a tag 16:59:02 ridiculous 16:59:03 AnMaster: before ← 16:59:06 ah 16:59:25 * ais523 wonders whether to remove defend6 from the rankings 16:59:25 (because it's almost the same as defend7) 16:59:28 "Or is this an eternal, undecidable holy-war question along the lines of ATI/nVidia, AMD/Intel, Coke/Pepsi" 16:59:34 he managed to put all the correct ones second 16:59:35 impressive 16:59:45 ehird: well, Emacs is one of the only sane ways to edit VHDL 16:59:48 which one? 16:59:49 ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss 16:59:50 ? 16:59:50 because VHDL has so much boilerplate 16:59:53 AnMaster: yes 16:59:59 Emacs' VHDL-mode fills the boilerplate in for you 17:00:02 ais523: i think i prefer verilog 17:00:04 for some reason that link says "connection reset by server" when I try it 17:00:08 that's a language you hack on in vi 17:00:11 (real vi) 17:00:12 Kinda like its RPM-mode? 17:00:28 $ curl 'http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss' 17:00:28 curl: (56) Failure when receiving data from the peer 17:00:29 that too 17:00:30 ehird: the difference to me seems to be that VHDL is very strict and quadruple-checky, Verilog hand-waves if you write something nonsensical 17:00:31 ehird: Real men use ed. 17:00:31 wth? 17:00:40 And implement Vi in it. 17:00:47 the main slashdot works 17:01:05 so does http://ask.slashdot.org/ 17:01:15 just not that full link, or clicking on the article 17:01:16 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:01:20 ais523: /me mumbles something about real men 17:01:21 anyone has any idea why? 17:01:24 ais523, ehird ^ 17:01:26 AnMaster: Slashdot has gone all Web 2.0 Javascript 17:01:29 AnMaster: your internet sux 17:01:32 although the fallback to pure HTML mostly works 17:01:35 ais523: ridiculous excuse 17:01:37 his internet always breaks 17:01:39 especially dns 17:01:43 ehird, dns isn't broken here 17:01:44 pikhq: http://imgur.com/zhnig.png 17:01:47 read what I said 17:01:48 duh 17:01:55 the pinnacle of rendering of the pinnacle of diacritics technology 17:01:56 AnMaster: I know that 17:02:00 AnMaster: I'm saying that your DNS breaks often 17:02:07 ehird, dns only broke twice or so the last year 17:02:10 I guess that is often 17:02:17 Well, whatever; you often say links don't work for you. 17:02:21 ehird, for lycos.fr in both cases 17:02:29 ehird, sure. But mostly not due to dns 17:02:36 seemed like it 17:03:23 ehird: Minor failure. 17:03:25 http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/31/187208 <-- that link works for the same thing 17:03:34 so I guess what ais523 said was the issue 17:03:36 ehird: ı should be centered. :p 17:03:43 pikhq: Wut 17:03:45 Ah 17:03:49 pikhq: That's a font issue 17:03:54 I can render it in Helvetica if you want 17:04:02 Yuh. 17:05:00 pikhq: if I do it on one line, it's three dots, bar, circle. If I had more newlines before, more stuff appears 17:05:10 Huh. 17:05:34 pikhq: http://imgur.com/iMicG.png 17:05:39 Enjoy with a 100dpi LCD display. 17:05:43 ais523, so which is best, verilog or vhdl? 17:05:52 AnMaster: which is best, C or Erlang? 17:05:56 Looks about right. 17:05:57 :D 17:06:05 ehird, ah, is it that type of question 17:06:21 rather than "which is best, C or C++" 17:06:21 VHDL if you want to be damn sure nothing went wrong at all 17:06:25 verilog if you actually want to get shit done 17:06:26 I assume 17:06:31 AnMaster: but most likely? 17:06:37 hm? 17:06:39 AnMaster: Whatever your institute has an okay compiler for. 17:06:44 hah 17:06:49 Unless you're rich and can afford one yourself. 17:08:27 Ooh. 17:08:33 A resolution with exactly 120 dpi at 12". 17:08:37 1152x864 17:09:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:09:28 ehird, 12" makes me think more in the terms of "800x600" 17:09:35 AnMaster: Laptop. 17:09:38 (which my old first model ibook was) 17:09:39 ehird, yes 17:09:51 AnMaster: Yes, well, 800x600 is kind of unusable. 17:10:04 ehird, my ibook was iirc 12" (or 12.5"?) and resolution was 800x600 17:10:07 this was back in 2001 or so 17:10:11 in 2001? 17:10:13 that's a bit small for 2001. 17:10:17 ehird, 2000? 2001? 17:10:18 AnMaster: so, OS X then? 17:10:20 something like that 17:10:23 OS X isn't happy with 800x600, really 17:10:24 ehird, um. It was OS 9 17:10:27 wait 17:10:27 AnMaster: ah 17:10:28 OS 8 17:10:29 even 17:10:30 duh 17:10:35 ehird, OS X didn't exist back then 17:10:38 AnMaster: err 17:10:40 it was 8.1 17:10:40 os x came out in 2001. 17:10:44 public beta in 2000 17:10:49 if you bought an ibook in 2000, it was os 9. 17:10:57 i'll look it up on infallopedia, anyway 17:11:19 ehird, it might have been late 1999 even. Depends on when the first ibook was released. 17:11:28 jul 21 99 17:11:29 since it was pretty soon after the first one was released 17:11:32 discontinued may 1 01 17:11:35 a few months iirc 17:11:44 ehird, then probably late 1999 or early 2000 17:11:48 AnMaster: mac os 9 = oct 23 99 17:11:53 so you almost certainly had os 9... 17:12:05 ehird, I have the CD here... says 8.5 on it 17:12:09 Weird 17:12:13 Must be an old one that wasn't sold 17:12:46 wait, that is the wrong computer. The ibook one is 8.6 in fact. the 8.5 cd is from another old mac 17:12:48 sorry 17:12:53 oh, 1152x864 is a great resolution 17:16:18 Guys. Scientific facts. 17:17:35 * AnMaster gets nostalgic and boots the old ibook 17:17:44 I hope it still works... 17:17:46 well 17:17:48 AnMaster? Liking some sort of mac? 17:17:49 for some values of work 17:17:50 Unpossible! 17:17:59 ehird, 3.4 GB harddrive 17:18:00 err 17:18:01 3.2 17:18:01 even 17:18:15 I believe I went something → 10GB → 80GB 17:18:21 and glitches in power connector, dead battery 17:18:27 (→ 500GB although that was just for media, w/ 80GB for OS) 17:18:34 (→ 160GB in imac) 17:18:38 so "very still tabletop" nowdays 17:18:40 (TIME MACHINE WHOOSH → 160GB/1TB) 17:18:45 ehird, 32 MB RAM! 17:18:45 wait, no, this HD is 230GB 17:18:46 or sth 17:19:04 happy mac displayed 17:19:05 AnMaster: i'd like to see that try and boot os x 17:19:15 ehird, I don't have any OS X CD 17:19:26 i do :-P 17:19:31 ehird, and it could probably boot OS X 10.0 or so 17:19:35 MAYBE 10.1 17:19:36 anyway 17:19:42 not a lot :P 17:19:55 AnMaster: what processor is it? 17:20:10 ehird, G3... let me wait for it to boot so I can check details 17:20:26 i had a g3 imac for a few days (i broke the optical drive so it won't boot an install cd and had previously fucked up the OS on it, kekekeke) 17:20:32 233mhz proc or something 17:20:32 ibook I said 17:20:37 16MB of ram or something? 17:20:46 hm 17:20:46 the hd was upgraded to 4gb i think 17:20:53 seems clock battery is dead 17:20:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:21:04 it complains clock is at 1904 17:21:17 also it is fucking loud 17:21:21 AnMaster: is it? 17:21:25 sounds like the harddrive is half dead 17:21:26 I guess 17:21:29 i can't think of laptops as loud they're so small :D 17:21:40 AnMaster: I have an old beige powermac running os 8 or 9 in the corner collecting dust 17:21:42 god that thing's loud 17:21:44 you can't hear yourself think 17:21:46 ehird, very loud and high pitched 17:21:57 ehird, same for this 17:22:01 it used to be much quietet 17:22:05 quieter 17:22:12 so probably something half-broken 17:22:24 ehird, 300 MHz 17:22:33 just checked in "Apple Systeminformation" 17:23:10 i should wire up my power mac and g3 17:23:18 and get back that really old ~486 i had 17:23:23 and put plan9 on them 17:23:26 DISTRIBUTED COMPUTATION NETWORK 17:23:32 ethernet connected 17:23:34 yep 17:23:36 lets see what happen 17:23:39 happens* 17:23:40 that's how you do a plan 9 cpu server 17:23:42 hrrm. Not a lot 17:23:59 AnMaster: ? 17:24:08 ooh it got an IP finally 17:24:10 that was slow 17:24:12 oh 17:24:14 I thougth you meant 17:24:20 connect my machines with ethernet 17:24:20 heh 17:24:28 ehird, this won't work when everything goes IPv6 in 2050 or so :P 17:24:28 AnMaster: does it have IE or netscape? 17:24:36 ehird, IE 5 probably 17:24:43 IE 5 for the mac was sort of okay 17:24:45 ehird, I upgraded it to OS 9 later. 17:24:49 separate codebase from windows ie 17:24:54 it is 9.1 now 17:25:35 ehird, IE 5.1 17:25:50 ehird: Yeah. It actually had rendering vaguely close to that specified by the standard. 17:26:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMac_G3_flavors.jpg ← Flower Power is totally trippy. 17:26:08 And ah, Plan9. 17:26:21 If I was gonna buy an old imac way back then I'd have got a graphite or snow one since I'm soooooooo boring 17:28:44 ehird, I think this *ibook* is "bondi blue" 17:29:15 ehird, this colouring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBook_redjar.jpg 17:29:20 and model 17:29:36 yeh 17:30:29 ehird, ah yes it is the harddrive that is making the sound 17:30:38 KRRRRRRRR KRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 17:30:39 since it just put the harddrive into sleep it stopped the sound 17:30:49 ehird, no, more like: 17:30:51 I AM AN UNRELIABLE, SLOW DISK HERE ME ROAR 17:30:52 WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME 17:30:55 NE* 17:31:09 constantly 17:31:31 ais523: 17:31:38 If you are pro-letting-society-kill-babies-without-lying-about-it-for-the-greater-good then you are in my camp, welcome. 17:31:39 err 17:31:41 wrong quote 17:31:43 (from reddit troll) 17:31:46 what I meant to paste was: 17:31:48 Part of the reason is that Verilog, being much like C, is inherently procedural. You don't want to think procedurally with digital logic except for the specific case of state machine design, and even then you have to take into account concurrency. It is this fundamental aspect of concurrency in HDLs that is key to being able to design effectively. 17:31:51 ais523: is this true? 17:32:14 VHDL/Verilog must not be written in a procedural way for actually generating code 17:32:26 Verilog was originally designed for verification, where procedural code is fine 17:32:29 wat 17:32:41 but for synthesizing/compiling rather than verifying, writing in a procedural way will give you a mess 17:32:53 the only procedural structures that work are if and for, and they're both unrolled 17:33:43 ais523, "verifying" how? 17:34:06 AnMaster: Verilog was originally designed for writing testsuites for hardware circuitry 17:34:13 whereas VHDL was designed for generating it 17:34:20 although they've both stolen all the features of the other 17:34:24 so nowadays, either can do either 17:34:26 -!- trainman419 has joined. 17:34:30 ais523, ok... how would verilog for testing vhdl generated hardware work? 17:34:33 or what do you mean 17:34:44 AnMaster: you can use VHDL/Verilog to describe how hardware behaves 17:34:49 AnMaster: Verilog for testing hardware. In general. 17:35:01 most high-end synthesis tools will produce a Verilog/VHDL version of the hardware they've produced 17:35:03 hm 17:35:08 (yes, this involves compiling VHDL to VHDL sometimes) 17:35:10 ah 17:35:19 so then you can run that in a simulator to test it? 17:35:20 I see 17:35:29 yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog 17:35:40 ais523, I thought you meant "using verilog for generating hardware that test other hardware" 17:35:43 or something like that 17:35:43 or nowadays, possibly SystemC, which is simulation only 17:35:55 although, the simulator uses different parts of the language 17:35:57 yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog <-- err? 17:36:03 okay... 17:36:07 AnMaster: suppose you want to simulate VHDL code 17:36:11 yes 17:36:13 you write a testbench in VHDL 17:36:19 and simulate the testbench + code combination 17:36:27 the testbench can even throw errors when unexpected things happen 17:36:27 a self-interpreter? 17:36:30 and pipe output to a file 17:36:33 no, not a self-interp 17:36:35 more like yuk 17:36:37 it links into the program 17:36:52 ais523, ok. So what bit runs the othermore simulator layer? 17:36:56 outermost* 17:37:08 you compile or interpret the VHDL 17:37:16 so either you compile it and run the machine code, that's simulation 17:37:18 YO DAWG 17:37:23 or you interpret the VHDL, that's simulation 17:37:26 I herd u liek testing hardware 17:37:33 so I put a simulator in your hardware language 17:37:37 so you can simulate while you simulate 17:37:40 * ehird bows 17:37:44 VHDL is incredibly yo dawg, yes 17:37:58 it's not unknown to have five versions of the same program, all written in VHDL 17:38:03 where the first was compiled into the second by hand 17:38:04 ais523, ah 17:38:11 which was compiled into the third/fourth/fifth automatically 17:38:15 Emacs' viper-mode is very weird. 17:38:24 pikhq: it's kind of rubbish 17:38:26 pikhq, Why are you using it? 17:38:30 it just steals a few basic key combinations 17:38:34 not the essence of vi 17:38:36 which is the important bit 17:38:37 It's like: I herd u liek editing so I put an editor in your editor so you can edit while you edit. 17:38:43 although the former follows the latter naturally 17:38:47 AnMaster: What, you think I'd *use* it? 17:38:50 the fifth version would be a very low-level description of the hardware that would be produced 17:38:53 with timing, and everything 17:39:10 pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it... 17:39:14 Honestly, if I'm going to use a Vi-like, I'll just start up Vim. 17:39:22 Just saying it's very weird. 17:39:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:39:42 ... Start up Vim in terminal-mode. :p 17:40:13 well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls 17:40:37 ais523: The two don't integrate very well. 17:40:50 That, and they're vi's, not vim's. 17:40:58 yes 17:42:12 17:39 AnMaster: pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it... 17:42:16 i mentioned yo dawg, so. 17:42:28 17:40 ais523: well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls ← but vi's controls aren't important to the philosophy! 17:42:36 yes, I know 17:42:36 if you start with vi's philosophy, you'll derive vi's controls 17:42:42 viper-mode is Emacs' philosophy, but vi's controls 17:42:42 but not the other way around 17:42:45 ehird, " i mentioned yo dawg, so." <-- was that directed to me? If so what do you mean. 17:42:47 probably that's why it hasn't caught on 17:42:49 ais523: yes, but nobody wants that! 17:42:56 AnMaster: pikhq said viper was yo-dawg 17:42:59 after me saying something else was 17:43:03 i'm assuming that's why 17:44:00 Sane assumption. 17:53:45 interesting fact about this ibook... 17:54:02 when you are downloading something, don't do anything else... even moving the mouse slows down the download 17:54:18 by about 10 kbps 17:54:24 AnMaster: is it a network mouse? 17:54:30 (from 141 to 131 kbps) 17:54:36 ais523, touch pad 17:54:41 and no 17:54:54 * ais523 is not entirely sure network mice exist 17:55:03 although I wouldn't be surprised if someone had invented them by now 17:55:05 ais523, I never heard of it before 17:55:28 ais523, network keyboard? 17:55:34 hahaha, someone on a torrent site comments thing on a comment told someone obviously using a mac to delete hal.dll (vital windows dll) 17:55:37 trolling fail 17:56:05 strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too 17:56:08 naming coincidence? 17:56:10 yes 17:56:11 (it wouldn't be a dll in Windows) 17:56:13 i think 17:56:14 *Linux 17:56:26 strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too <-- no? 17:56:37 it is not system criticial 17:56:39 AnMaster: most distros use hal/hald nowadays 17:56:48 and that's like saying a screen isn't system-critical 17:56:50 ais523, yes but it isn't system critical actually 17:56:54 it isn't, but most users want one anyway 17:57:02 aaaah i love chiptunes 17:57:17 AnMaster: x isn't system-critical either 17:57:25 it's still an important component of a linux system 17:57:30 ais523, system critical: init, libc, kernel, + whatever is needed to get you to a rescue shell 17:57:39 rubbish definition 17:57:47 I'm not saying that users wouldn't want to keep it. 17:57:50 AnMaster: libc? 17:57:51 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:58:03 aren't rescue shells statically-linked? 17:58:18 ais523, they are. But I don't think init is 17:58:20 * AnMaster looks 17:58:30 init is dynamically linked 17:58:33 AnMaster: init isn't system-critical anyway 17:58:39 of course you could do init=/bin/bb in grub 17:58:41 you can use any program you like as an init, via a boot option 17:58:43 using bash works fine 17:58:44 yes 18:02:11 ehird: only if it was someone who is of age! 18:02:19 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDrive#Floppy_disk_drive 18:02:21 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:02:29 psygnisfive: Erm, no. 18:02:34 Sex between two minors is illegal in the UK. 18:02:38 really? wow. 18:02:39 haha 18:02:47 Yeah. There's been prosecutions on it. 18:03:04 thats pretty funny 18:03:53 -!- whtspc has joined. 18:04:00 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 18:18:21 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:31:04 -!- trainman419 has left (?). 18:40:29 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:42:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:42:33 "Britain’s Supreme Court of Judicature has answered a question that has long puzzled late-night dorm-room snackers: What, exactly, is a Pringle? With citations ranging from Baroness Hale of Richmond to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Lord Justice Robin Jacob concluded that, legally, it is a potato chip." 18:42:39 Potatoless potato chip. 18:43:20 why does it matter? tax reasons? 18:43:23 Interesting that it would be called a potato chip in Britain, given that they're crisps over there. :p 18:43:47 yes, they are 18:43:47 ais523: yep 18:43:52 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/opinion/01mon4.html?_r=1 18:43:53 although we're aware of American names for things too 18:44:05 pikhq: the most irritating thing is that you call chips fries and crisps chips 18:44:34 "I'm eating chips." "Mm, potato." "Yeah, I love potato. These are Bacon flavored." "...wait, what?" 18:44:57 um? tax reasons!? 18:45:01 "a Pringle is “made from potato flour in the sense that one cannot say that it is not made from potato flour, and the proportion of potato flour is significant being over 40 percent.”" 18:45:03 AnMaster: yes 18:45:14 AnMaster: tax on different products is at different rates 18:45:15 ehird, you mean it is discountable, like for charities in US? 18:45:18 ais523: this is a good time to make a quote: 18:45:18 ah 18:45:21 [[Why, according to Moore, is 'good' like 'yellow' and not like a 'horse'?]] 18:45:22 for VAT 18:45:24 right? 18:45:26 AnMaster: most food is exempt, but crisps aren't. 18:45:27 yes 18:45:30 also, import duty 18:45:35 but I think it's VAT that matters here 18:45:39 so did the tax go up or down now? 18:45:47 for the record, the answer is that good and yellow are irreducible concepts while a horse is not. 18:45:50 AnMaster: up 18:45:56 AnMaster: $160mil 18:45:57 read the article 18:46:09 I know that when I needed to import some processors from the US, we had to prove they didn't have a calculator function 18:46:14 ehird, says I must log in 18:46:16 to get a much lower import duty rate 18:46:21 AnMaster: open in a different browser then 18:46:23 Konq works fine 18:46:28 AnMaster: it does that sometimes 18:46:30 ais523: ... Didn't have a calculator function? 18:46:31 AnMaster: use bugmenot/bugmenot 18:46:31 ais523, I'm using konq 18:46:32 ... 18:46:39 AnMaster: hmm, that one may be disabled 18:46:41 lemme look it up 18:46:45 hmm, well it isn't asking me to log in 18:46:53 ais523: it sometimes does 18:46:56 bait-'n-switch 18:46:57 http://www.bugmenot.com/view/nytimes.com 18:47:02 ehird: random, I wonder? 18:47:07 also, wow at that bugmenot feature 18:47:07 AnMaster: regisblows/whywhywhy 18:47:12 ais523: what feature? 18:47:14 oh 18:47:14 it's bugmenot.com 18:47:17 I assumed the URL was an auto-login 18:47:21 using one of the bugmenot accounts 18:47:26 nope 18:47:29 but it isn't, it's just giving you the username/password pair 18:47:30 as usual 18:47:36 (I know about bugmenot, and have used it on occasion) 18:47:40 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:42 ais523: there's a firefox extension 18:47:44 (although normally I just avoid websites with stupid login requirements) 18:47:49 you right click the user name field and hit bug me not 18:47:50 and it submits the form 18:47:51 iirc 18:47:56 ehird, maybe it doesn't like that I disable cookies... 18:48:00 "He was even more dismissive of Procter & Gamble’s argument that to be taxable a product must contain enough potato to have the quality of “potatoness.” This “Aristotelian question” of whether a product has the “essence of potato,” he insisted, simply cannot be answered." 18:48:02 AnMaster: nothing to do with that, I imagine 18:48:08 ehird, since login doesn't work 18:48:13 AnMaster: enable cookies, then 18:48:20 yeah, it's a pain 18:48:20 * ais523 wonders what affect disabling cookies would have on Phorm 18:48:25 *effect 18:48:30 ais523: phorm use a complicated redirect scheme 18:48:32 no cookies 18:48:35 just every page redirects to another 18:48:36 not quite 18:48:38 which redirects to another 18:48:38 ais523: I suppose next they'll start mentioning quales? 18:48:40 ad infinitum 18:48:41 they use a complicated redirect scheme /and/ cookies 18:48:54 essence of potato 18:48:57 sounds like vanilla essence 18:49:00 except yuk 18:49:13 pikhq: it's qualia, you uncultured swine. 18:49:31 [flu[ 18:49:33 ]] 18:49:34 ehird: It's retarded, you cultured bourgeoise. 18:49:52 pikhq: Your mom, proletarian. 18:50:16 [[The inverted spectrum thought experiment, originally developed by John Locke[6] invites us to imagine that we wake up one morning, and find that for some unknown reason all the colors in the world have been inverted. Furthermore, we discover that no physical changes have occurred in our brains or bodies that would explain this phenomenon. Supporters of the existence of qualia argue that, since we can imagine this happening without contradiction]] 18:50:20 that's such a retarded argument 18:50:26 i can imagine a world where pigs fly without contradiction 18:50:32 doesn't mean it's true 18:51:19 umm... if all colours were inverted, how would we know they'd been inverted? 18:51:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:51:36 ais523: because yesterday we saw something as red and now it's green etc? 18:51:42 i'd have thought that'd be pretty obvious 18:51:48 how are red and green defined, though? 18:51:48 The grass outside being red would make it rather obvious 18:51:54 ais523: qualia 18:51:55 Via the qualia 18:51:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia 18:52:01 I suppose you'd need to use a prism or something to actually measure it 18:52:02 that's the base of the whole argument 18:52:06 ais523: unmeasurable 18:52:09 it's about consciousness 18:52:17 well, colour is measurable, so it's a bad analogy 18:52:27 ais523: cf colourblind people 18:52:33 they can measure colour all they want 18:52:37 doesn't mean they can perceive their qualia 18:52:55 well, everyone percieves colour differently anyway 18:53:10 ais523: are you sure about that? 18:53:14 ais523: prove it :D 18:53:20 ais523: I find that idea highly questionable 18:53:29 ehird: because nobody has identical cone pigments, nor connections from the retina to the brain 18:53:42 ais523: oh, you mean infinitesimally different 18:53:44 yes 18:53:50 well, sometimes it's more than infinitesimal 18:54:01 you can find pairs of people where it's infinitesimal, and pairs where it's quite large 18:54:08 i enjoy the fact that a number of the anti-qualia people are well know, while the pro-qualia people are /completely/ random nobodies 18:54:08 which is where the concept of red/brown colourblindness comes from 18:54:33 My view of consciousness is it's the byproduct of the brain's mechanical thought process 18:54:44 That doesn't explain what it actually *is*, but it explains what causes it. 18:55:16 (I also believe that "death" is relative; you a second ago is dead, but our consciousness tries very hard to give a continuous experience. Go fig) 18:55:41 i think consciousness is the brains ability to include amongst its data-to-process the current state of its data-to-process 18:56:01 psygnisfive: I am talking about the subjective, personal experience of consciousness 18:56:03 not its effects 18:56:08 ehird: so am i. 18:56:14 I don't believe that consciousnesses are created, destroyed or anything 18:56:27 I just believe a conscio is a byproduct of our brain thinking 18:56:38 and consciousness is just the perceieved-as-continuous stream of conscios 18:56:45 i believe that the experience of consciousness is precisely the experience of being aware of the fact that youre aware of what you're aware of. 18:56:56 knowing that you know what you know, etc. 18:57:21 psygnisfive: right; I'm not saying what the consciousness actually is, your theory is compatible 18:57:27 I'm just saying how I think it comes by 18:57:42 ah, well. 18:57:48 have you ever read dennett? 18:57:57 consciousness explained discusses some interesting things 18:58:00 no, dennett appears to be a quack :) 18:58:02 like the cutaneous rabbit 18:58:13 dennett is far from a quack. 18:58:25 dunno about that, I've heard some convincing arguments otherwise 18:58:41 never rely on others opinions of a person 18:58:48 not opinion 18:58:49 argument 18:58:49 they're often colored by misunderstanding or stupid. 18:58:59 argument without two sides is opinion. 18:59:31 unless youve actually read dennett, or seen him talk, or whatever, then you dont know what dennett says. you know what people say he says. 18:59:44 rephrase #3: logically-based dissection using original data from source. 18:59:46 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out). 19:00:07 admittedly, a lot of what he says is not intuitive at all 19:00:22 but its almost entirely based on facts of cognitive science, not on hypothesizing. 19:00:36 you really should read some of his stuff, if only to know what he himself is saying. 19:01:22 by the same argument i should read every quack physics paper that has been dissected and disproved by people whose opinion I value to a degree 19:01:28 because hey, they might just be right!112eleventy 19:01:49 point 19:02:08 except, daniel dennett is not a quack, and is probably one of the most important philosophers of mind today. 19:02:09 :P 19:02:22 important != not a quack 19:02:26 true, but 19:02:31 there are plenty of important, popular people who are complete quacks. 19:02:45 psygnisfive: also, do you realise you're being a hypocrite? 19:02:46 important DOES mean that you should give him some reading 19:02:51 "don't rely on someone's opinion of another" 19:02:56 "daniel dennett is not a quack" 19:03:09 psygnisfive: shit, I have to read everyone who's important's work? 19:03:12 my brain might melt 19:03:14 no 19:03:23 but youre saying hes a quack without knowing what he says 19:03:44 i guess i mentally blocked the quotes from him in what I've read about him, then? 19:03:48 impressive that I still understood 19:04:20 what precisely did you find quackish 19:04:33 i don't recall, surely you've realised that my memory is terrible? 19:04:41 since you're so sure you know what hes said, what did you find to be quacking 19:04:45 http://law.onecle.com/california/civil/3548.html 19:05:01 ais523: it's not even a requirement 19:05:03 wait a second 19:05:05 ais523: that voids the law 19:05:12 it is an axiom that the law has been obeyed 19:05:18 ehird: quite a few of the other rules around there are interesting too 19:05:18 we judge the illegality of an action by the law 19:05:24 since it says that the law has been obeyed, 19:05:31 ehird: I think there's a loophole, it just means that at least one action hasn't been illegal 19:05:31 nobody is ever guilty of the California Civil Code 19:05:33 \o 19:05:35 \o? 19:05:37 err 19:05:38 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:05:38 \o/ 19:05:41 ais523: well, imagine: 19:05:46 If a person steals, this law has been disobeyed. 19:05:47 besides, is it even possible to "break" civil law? 19:05:52 stealing is criminal 19:05:57 I know 19:06:00 I was just using an example 19:06:01 there are no civil laws. 19:06:05 just civil law. 19:06:11 so theres nothing to break. 19:06:37 i don't actually understand civil law too much 19:07:07 civil law is just a bunch of people in the community think you're a jerk so you have to pay. 19:07:09 ais523: 19:07:10 Things happen according to the ordinary course of nature and 19:07:11 the ordinary habits of life. 19:07:12 A thing continues to exist as long as is usual with things of 19:07:14 that nature. 19:07:19 what the fuck is this code talking about 19:07:21 yes, I've seen many of those 19:07:35 there is an explanation in there somewhere, I think 19:07:37 just not a very good one 19:07:41 Where one of two innocent persons must suffer by the act of a 19:07:42 third, he, by whose negligence it happened, must be the sufferer. 19:07:45 it's a collection of proverbs! 19:07:57 hey ais523 19:07:57 An interpretation which gives effect is preferred to one 19:07:58 which makes void. 19:08:03 "this law has been obeyed" is effectively void 19:08:09 as in 19:08:13 if we say that it means it's been obeyed once 19:08:18 and, at least, much more void than "it has been obeyed in this case" 19:08:38 I would so love it if some lawyers tried to use those rules to throw out a civil case 19:08:46 unfortunately, I think they're sufficiently self-contradictory that that wouldn't work 19:09:04 [[Time does not confirm a void act.]] 19:09:06 WHAT THE FUCK 19:09:18 Time is cubic. 4-day harmonious rotation does not interfere. 19:09:25 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:09:25 [[Superfluity does not vitiate.]] 19:09:29 hahaha this is great 19:10:07 -1*-1=1 is learned stupid. 19:10:15 * ais523 posts the same link in ##nomic 19:11:06 -!- olsner has joined. 19:11:08 conscio is such a nice word 19:11:17 ehird, ever heard of MacBug? 19:11:18 wonder it's conscios or consci? 19:11:30 AnMaster: 19:11:31 MacBUG - Macarthur Bicycle Users group redirect to http ... 19:11:32 Bushwalking and social club based in the Macarthur District of NSW. Includes photos, news, tips, safety and events. 19:11:39 ehird, not that one 19:11:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:11:43 Which one 19:11:52 ehird, A system level debugger from Apple. Useful even if you didn't debug on Pre OS X 19:12:04 heh. 19:12:08 *Heh. 19:12:13 ehird, it was useful for normal users, because it made some crashes manage without reboot 19:12:18 wasn't it called macbugs? 19:12:20 you could kill the relevant app. Sometimes 19:12:28 Hi :-) 19:12:29 ehird: why did you pick out what's presumably an early Google result and assume it was correct, when it obviously wasn't? 19:12:30 MacsBug 19:12:30 even 19:12:32 jix_, ^ 19:12:35 just checked 19:12:38 that's what AnMaster's supposed to do in response to you 19:12:39 impomatic: hi 19:12:40 I'm in macbug atm 19:12:42 ais523: it was the first one, and no others referenced anything in particular 19:12:52 ais523: so what he said was thoroughly unhelpful 19:12:52 Any new techniques for BF Joust over the last three days? I've been away. 19:12:55 macsbug 19:12:59 normally when he does it, it's on the same page 19:13:09 macsbug returns a result 19:13:11 AnMaster: ah just remembered that there was some strange s in there i always forgot 19:13:11 impomatic: not really 19:13:13 MacsBug is an acronym for Motorola Advanced Computer Systems Debugger 19:13:14 lol 19:13:14 Has anyone tried programming in the language of Tierra? 19:13:15 the heap rules have changed, though 19:13:22 jix_, not odd I typoed it 19:13:24 anyway 19:13:25 and defend6/7 are winning 19:13:30 even though I haven't resubmit them 19:13:32 hc all says the heap of finder is corrupted 19:13:33 :( 19:13:35 presumably, everyone's using [-] nowadays 19:13:42 only way to handle that is to reboot 19:14:01 * AnMaster enters rs and hits enter 19:14:12 where's oerjan when you need him 19:14:17 also in true apple style it has menus 19:14:29 which work with built in mouse, but not usb ones connected 19:14:30 very odd 19:14:37 ehird, ? 19:14:46 AnMaster: for a logic question 19:14:47 rs is "unmount and reboot" 19:14:49 ah 19:14:56 I had to REISUB earlier 19:15:06 KDE crashed, nothing was working but the mouse pointer 19:15:07 why did I get nostalgic over this old ibook today 19:15:17 I remmeber it was your fault ehird. But I don't remember why 19:15:18 not even control-alt-f1 (even after SysRq-R) or control-alt-backspace 19:15:19 :/ 19:15:23 although reisub itself seemed to work fin 19:15:24 *fine 19:15:36 AnMaster: large resolution for 12" screen 19:15:43 ah 19:15:44 right 19:15:44 I'm trying to write a small efficient Tierra self-replicating program by hand. 19:15:46 I'm down to 22 instructions and 143 cycles. 19:15:47 800x600 indeed 19:15:55 ehird, I upgraded it to 9.2.2 now 19:16:06 AnMaster: stick linux on it 19:16:10 always nice to have a computer 19:16:16 ehird, I have booted it with gentoo once 19:16:17 but 19:16:24 I only keep it for some old mac games 19:16:29 AnMaster: compilation time would be prohibitive for gentoo 19:16:30 the old ibook I mean 19:16:36 ehird, yeah. 19:16:50 ehird, would have to distcc to a cross toolchain on my pc 19:16:57 AnMaster: or... use a binary distro 19:17:12 why not just compile a cross-toolchain from scratch? 19:17:15 you have gcc source, don't you? 19:17:18 ehird, anyway that would be defeating the point. 19:17:19 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 19:17:22 ais523: do you know what distcc is? 19:17:24 ais523, .. you missed the point did you? 19:17:30 didn't* 19:17:35 ehird: no, I can guess but I might have guessed wrong 19:17:39 ais523: you did 19:17:41 try the google 19:17:44 no 19:17:49 your loss 19:18:03 well, if it's in your interest that I know what you're talking about, then you can tell me 19:18:09 if it isn't, then we both have more important things to do 19:18:10 it's not 19:18:16 ais523, it allows spreading compiles over several computers. 19:18:28 AnMaster: ah, interesting 19:18:31 AnMaster: oh, please don't feed his hate of using the web 19:18:34 ais523, what did you think it was? 19:18:35 what about make -jn? could it be modified to do that? 19:18:36 it's tiring 19:18:45 ehird, I'm with ais523 here. Since I share this hate. 19:18:53 luddites 19:18:54 ais523, that is the whole point of it... 19:18:59 ehird: the Web is one of the most annoying and least useful parts of the Internet 19:19:05 just people keep putting things there for some reason 19:19:19 think about it this way: aren't you really annoyed when you phone someone and get an automated system? 19:19:25 ais523: where do you think wikipedia belongs. Gopher 19:19:26 ? 19:19:31 now, would you rather have Google at the other end of the phone, or AnMaster? 19:19:34 anyone remember good old NORTON Utilities. From before it was Symantec? 19:19:46 actually, I have no idea how ehird would answer that question 19:19:49 ais523: broken analogy 19:19:55 ehird: agreed 19:19:56 the web is not like phoning up an automated system 19:19:57 but it's still a good question 19:19:59 so my answer is mu 19:20:00 huh 19:20:06 ehird: and no, it isn't; but it is if you use a search engine 19:20:07 ais523: also, considering how much I argue with AnMaster, Google 19:20:11 and no, it's not 19:20:45 -!- impomatic has left (?). 19:20:59 Hit Cmd-Q to quit app. Get: "PowerPC unmapped memory exception at 3E217A40" in MacsBug 19:21:01 * AnMaster growls 19:21:15 ah 19:21:21 es to kill app worked 19:21:40 "100dpi is Not Enough - Thursday 1 July, 2004" 19:21:42 time for some MPW! 19:21:49 This person numbers all his years by subtracting 10 from them. 19:21:56 Fun fact. 19:23:09 Fun fact: MPW's "worksheet" is a mix between a shell and the "*scratch*" buffer in emacs... 19:23:13 if you see what I mean 19:23:21 erm 19:23:24 emacs *scratch* is a shell 19:23:26 an elisp shell 19:23:27 AnMaster: the *scratch* buffer in emacs is a mix between a shell and the *scratch* buffer in Emacs 19:23:30 try (+ 2 2)C-j 19:23:43 ais523: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWGGGGGGGG 19:23:50 ais523, hah. 19:24:01 how's that funny 19:24:02 it's true 19:24:11 it's meant to be true /and/ funny 19:25:24 has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? 19:25:36 the descriptions remind me of some sort of ridiculously overcomplicated gobby 19:25:44 only Google owns your data not you 19:25:48 but I may have the wrong end of the stick 19:25:50 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 19:25:53 ais523: it's not that 19:26:12 it's like gobby with IM client features that does any kind of data, not just text 19:26:19 ais523: also, it's federated + open protocol 19:26:20 like jabber 19:26:23 you can run your own google wave server 19:26:30 and communicate with people on other servers, including google's official one 19:26:41 so you could do a google wave communication completely bypassing google 19:26:44 ah, ok 19:26:51 I don't like the idea of people seeing what I type as I type it, so I wouldn't use it as IM 19:26:55 but for collaboration, it could be interesting 19:27:09 reminds me of Google Docs in that case 19:27:09 has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? <-- what is it 19:27:12 just generalised 19:27:15 AnMaster: i just told you... 19:27:17 AnMaster: read conversation? 19:27:20 ehird just explained 19:27:21 mhm 19:27:25 that is WORSE than googling ;P 19:27:27 ais523: it's google docs, but with name tags, essentially 19:27:33 ok 19:27:38 AnMaster: so you want me to psychically tell you? 19:27:41 ais523: and distributedness 19:27:46 not a bad idea, really 19:27:56 http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec 19:27:57 although it's one of those things where the amount of hype annoys me 19:28:01 seems a bit incomplete 19:28:06 ais523: tech media is bunk 19:28:06 even if it's only a few millialphas 19:28:12 ah ok 19:28:22 * AnMaster read convo now 19:28:25 convo* 19:28:27 err 19:28:33 right first time around 19:28:34 meh 19:28:37 bbl food 19:28:42 AnMaster: *reads 19:28:52 i'm still trying to recover from the shock of someone in 2004 saying that 100dpi is low resolution 19:29:14 (and trying to futz with values to figure out what their 150dpi screen was) 19:30:03 1920x1200 @ 15" 19:30:05 = 150dpi 19:30:10 can't be that, must be bigger 19:30:25 2048x1152 @ 19" is only 123dpi 19:30:55 what DPI do you use, anyway? 19:30:58 1920x1200 a 15"? 19:31:07 pikhq: I'm trying to figure out what this 150dpi screen in 2004 was 19:31:08 That's just silly. 19:31:18 ehird: Mmkay. 19:31:20 Asztal: This iMac has a 20" @ 16something x 1050. 19:31:22 100dpi 19:31:27 Was it 15"? 19:31:36 I'm probably going for a 94-96dpi screen for my new box, due to ubiquityness. 19:31:37 Deewiant: no idea 19:31:45 but in 2004, 30" displays were the hugest there ever was 19:31:50 so I'm guessing 1x-2x 19:32:02 plus a 150dpi 50" display would have to be a gazillion x a bajillion 19:32:04 Isn't that still pretty much the hugest there is? :-P 19:32:05 er 19:32:06 *30" 19:32:10 Deewiant: well, yeh 19:32:26 2560x1600 @ 20" = 150dpi 19:32:32 # 1920x1200 @ 15.4 Dell Inspiron 6000 19:32:47 Asztal: SAME PPI CALCULATOR BUDDIES 19:32:47 (147 dpi) 19:32:51 *hi5* 19:33:21 ah, I figured you were just guessing :) 19:33:32 Asztal: nope, I'm feeding values into it 19:34:10 "I already run with Small Fonts on my 150ppi screen, and use 9pt for all my text editing." 19:34:17 my consolation is that this guy is probably blind by now 19:34:29 21 characters per fucking inch 19:35:12 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:38:37 Asztal: there should be one where you can put in a dpi and a screen size 19:38:41 and it gives you the resolution 19:39:10 -!- tetha has joined. 19:40:33 "McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes. In doing so it produced a 12" Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes." 19:40:38 Our logic is undeniable! 19:40:46 * ehird makes a 12" digestive biscuit 19:41:08 heh, I read that before too 19:41:18 om nom nom nom nom 19:41:20 hi tetha 19:41:29 hmm maybe the topic will put people off answering my his :) 19:41:31 greetings 19:41:41 tetha: haven't seen your name around; you new? 19:42:02 yep, learned about this channel earlier today and figured I'd take a look 19:42:14 fair enough 19:42:17 okay, um, I'd like to get this out of the way since it happens so often: we're about esoteric programming languages, not magic or witchcraft or anything of that sort 19:42:21 here for esolang discussion, or the jousting? 19:42:22 there, now we can all get on 19:42:37 (yes, we do get people thinking that...) 19:42:39 I certainly hope this is about sligtly less usable languages :) 19:42:43 yes 19:42:50 tetha: It depends on your definition of "slightly". 19:42:50 slightly can be an understatement on occasiono 19:43:04 octal casino? 19:43:21 Octal... casino. 19:43:26 It sounds like a good idea if only I knew what it meant. 19:43:42 hehe... yes, malbolge is "slightly" unusable... sort of 19:43:48 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:44:02 Quite 19:44:13 tetha: nonsense 19:44:14 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html 19:44:19 i bet it only took a few months to write too 19:44:36 It's all pretty straight forward, isn't it? 19:44:48 Yes. 19:44:51 I mean, the squiggly bit there 19:44:56 And the wave pattern there. 19:45:03 Translates to "print out the 99 bottles of beer song". 19:45:03 Could be worse, really 19:45:09 It could be in Plain English. 19:45:10 Yes, ladies and gentlemen; Malbolge is an elaborate hoax. 19:45:12 *rimshot* 19:45:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection reset by peer). 19:45:18 If you decode its spec and understand its very nature of working... 19:45:25 It's just an obfuscated HQ9+. 19:45:32 heh 19:45:36 Slereah_, now THAT would be difficult to understand 19:45:37 * ehird nods. Sagely. 19:45:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:45:50 FireFly: 99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html 19:45:53 'Tis a real language 19:45:54 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html 19:46:21 Plain English is /awful/ 19:46:27 yes 19:46:27 and apparently intended seriously 19:46:28 it truly is 19:46:30 meaking them even worse than us 19:46:31 yes, it is 19:46:31 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet"). 19:46:35 where's oerjan when you need him 19:46:37 ais523: we've proved it TC, iirc 19:46:37 Oh 19:46:40 ehird: how does it compare to BancSTAR? 19:46:44 it can loop 19:46:51 so can BancSTAR 19:46:53 ais523: oh, it's easier to program in 19:47:04 but you just get going— yeah, i've read the manual, hey, this is working 19:47:06 I can do this 19:47:09 I think I confused it with English (the esolang) 19:47:12 ooh, a stupid restriction 19:47:18 damn, how do I do this 19:47:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:47:21 oh shit is THAT how that works? 19:47:24 oh crap it doesn't extend to 19:47:27 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!! 19:47:34 Slereah_ can also attest to this 19:47:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:47:56 ais523: it doesn't help that the manual continually calls windows kludges and whores and generally harasses you 19:48:09 *windows a kludge and a whore 19:48:16 "Not to be confused with ENGLISH, a (non-esoteric) SQL-like programming language used in the old Pick operating system." 19:48:20 I was so confusing it with that. 19:48:22 well, if you've ever tried to program for Windows, you'll know the feeling 19:48:25 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/English) 19:48:28 but it isn't /quite/ as bad at that 19:49:42 hmm... who was it here who was trying to write an esolang which was completely readable by a non-programmer, yet interpretable by an interp? 19:49:51 they wanted to come up with the language first 19:49:55 The osmosian order? :P 19:49:59 then write DeCSS in it (legal, according to US precedent) 19:50:03 heh 19:50:07 then write the interp (thus retroactively making the program illegal) 19:50:37 ais523: i don't think the program would become illegal 19:50:41 if it was sufficiently english-like 19:50:46 lojban could help 19:50:47 an interesting point 19:50:49 even if there's an interp? 19:50:57 ais523: i can write an interpreter that interprets Macbeth 19:51:02 as a DeCSS program 19:51:05 without hardcoding it in particular 19:51:08 does that make Macbeth illegal? No. 19:51:14 of course, intent is everything 19:51:14 ehird: that's an interesting point 19:51:18 would the interp then be illegal, I wonder? 19:51:23 so you might want to get someone to write decss and just suggest some quirks of language 19:51:24 I suspect you'd have to deliberately aim for deCSS 19:51:26 without telling them your plan 19:51:36 ais523: not neccessarily 19:51:39 in all likelihood, yes 19:51:41 but theoretically, no 19:51:46 double, double, toil and trouble 19:52:47 how's BF Joust getting on? 19:53:03 I still don't get how a couple of my ancient programs are back at the top of the leaderboard, without me resubmitting 19:53:06 even with all the rules changes 19:53:09 that just feels weird 19:53:20 ais523: Well, someone has already devised a programming language for DeCSS. It has a DeCSS implemenation, but is not itself implemented... 19:53:37 pikhq: is it HQ9+-style? 19:53:48 No. It's a C-like language. 19:53:54 (even if not, we should /so/ add a DeCSS command to HQ9+...) 19:54:05 ais523: Yuh. 19:54:40 CHIQRSX9++D 19:54:46 The best of all worlds. 19:55:06 he managed to put all the correct ones second <-- it did happen to be alphabetical order 19:55:13 oerjan: :P 19:55:25 ehird: also, some people would disagree with you 19:55:32 although I agree with you on the non-programming-related one 19:55:37 ais523: unpossible 19:55:40 back when I drank cola, I did prefer Pepsi to Coca-Cola 19:55:40 i'm objectively right, always 19:55:47 although I don't drink it nowadays 19:56:10 AnMaster: *reads <-- no. It was "has read" 19:56:17 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt 19:56:19 AnMaster: "I read" would work 19:56:23 "AnMaster read" doesn't really 19:56:27 well 19:56:30 AnMaster read works 19:56:30 but 19:56:32 AnMaster read the convo now 19:56:33 doesn't 19:56:33 ehird, /me readed that convo 19:56:36 Trivial to compile to C. 19:56:36 what about that 19:56:40 is it better? 19:56:42 :P 19:56:43 AnMaster: ... no 19:56:50 I mean, really, sed would do it... 19:57:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:57:01 pikhq: I'm going to write a compiler for that now 19:57:04 as I am contrarian 19:57:20 ehird: You will retroactively make it illegal. 19:57:22 Nice work. 19:57:28 pikhq: nope 19:57:35 I can't make someone else retroactively do something illegal 19:57:37 I don't have that legal power 19:57:37 ehird, well that was what it meant. Except in English it is "read" but pronounced as "red" in past. 19:57:45 distributing it w/ knowledge of the compiler will become illegal, though 19:57:49 thus what I wrote was correct as far as I can tell ehird 19:57:51 AnMaster: the fact is your sentence was invalid 19:57:59 ais523: [[* AnMaster read the convo now]] - invalid, agreed? 19:58:01 or at least very awkward 19:58:03 AnMaster: yeah english really blue it 19:58:04 ehird, so.. "/me walked foo" 19:58:19 ehird, would have to be "/me walkeds foo" 19:58:21 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:58:23 ... 19:58:24 according to your logic 19:58:25 AnMaster: ...no 19:58:32 I also thought the "readed" was a bit odd 19:59:19 FireFly, that is because it is "read" in past tense 19:59:48 AnMaster: logic doesn't change what is valid about a language 19:59:49 that is why it has to be "* AnMaster read the convo now". It is "AnMaster the convo now". 20:00:04 what exactly is invalid in it 20:00:09 reads would be invalid 20:00:10 orange you glad english spelling is so logical 20:00:32 since that would imply present tense 20:00:39 ehird, ^ 20:00:53 AnMaster: it just is invalid 20:01:01 ask psygnisfive if you want to know the linguistic reason, I don't 20:01:07 ehird, why. Is "AnMaster walked to the house now" invalid too? 20:01:13 I'm just a native speaker and I know that it's either incredibly awkward or invalid 20:01:26 ehird, yes or no? 20:01:27 AnMaster: Step 1. Read past two messages. Step 2. Repeat until comprehension is achieved. 20:01:38 ehird, is it invalid or not 20:01:41 that line 20:01:41 ehird: I think it's valid but incredibly awkward, the original 20:01:48 likewise, for the new one 20:01:56 you're mixing past tense with an indication of the present 20:01:57 ais523, why is it awkward? 20:02:11 ais523, ah 20:02:16 AnMaster: the correct form is "I've read the convo now" 20:02:21 i was sort of hoping for a groaning yellow epic proportions here... 20:02:22 "AnMaster read the" = "I read the" 20:02:29 and correctness needs I → I've 20:02:33 "have read", not "read", makes it work better 20:02:42 as it's "have read by now", a sort of past version of the future perfect 20:02:48 ais523, ah. 20:03:00 ais523, yes that was the intention 20:03:15 the thing I was saying here was that ehird's "reads*" correction was not correct. 20:03:17 I have written a perl compiler from DeCSSLanguage to C 20:03:19 It only uses s/// 20:03:26 AnMaster: I thought you meant you were reading it now 20:03:35 because it was awkward, but not if you added an s 20:03:38 ehird, If so I would have used "reads" 20:03:47 AnMaster: oh come on, like you don't make trivial typos all the time 20:04:04 ehird, anyway, it isn't my fault English writes it as "read" but pronounces it either as "read" or "red" 20:04:04 ... 20:04:06 my brain thinks you making a trivial typo is more likely than you making a horribly warped sentence, and so assumed the former 20:04:10 ........................................... 20:04:14 what's it got to do with pronounciation 20:04:18 *pronunciation 20:04:27 ehird, because the spelling is confusing in such cases 20:04:54 if it has been a verb that you added the standard "ed" to to make past tense it would have been harder to misunderstood 20:05:02 same for if I had _said_ "red" 20:05:27 (and yes I'm aware of those two "to", but as far as I can tell it is valid?) 20:05:46 ais523: what's a better way of doing 'print func <>'? 20:05:50 for <> = whole input 20:05:54 AnMaster: go speak lojban 20:05:59 AnMaster: i think you need the first "has" to be "had", though 20:06:13 oerjan, ah good point 20:06:40 I don't proof read IRC lines, but if I had I think I would have detected that had. 20:06:54 that has* 20:06:58 it definitely stands out if you read it aloud. 20:07:04 Maybe it changed word class as we speak? 20:07:05 :> 20:07:12 classy 20:08:27 RAWR 20:09:49 FireFly, hm? Had had been has you might have been correct (and I'm not sure about that "have"...) 20:10:19 Touché 20:15:29 Uncivil disobedience: http://pastie.org/496882.txt?key=guczgfl0y62fnulv88jhg 20:16:19 ehird, what is the point of the original... 20:16:30 AnMaster: it's US law related 20:16:42 don't try to understand, you'll spend half an hour preaching to the choir about how it's stupid 20:17:05 Nice quote 20:17:09 what quot 20:17:10 e 20:17:16 ehird: "Please do not write a compiler or interpreter for this language." lawl 20:17:36 ehird, I know what DeCSS is (breaking copy protection...) but why doesn't he want a compiler for that language? 20:17:48 AnMaster: because that makes the program illegal 20:18:11 ehird, he should have a human readable description of the algorithm instead. Would be safer. 20:18:21 that defeats the point entirely 20:18:44 The point is basically to make fun of DMCA. 20:19:20 he has an email address 20:19:23 I'm going to email him that program 20:19:30 ehird, store_char seems wrong 20:19:31 >:) 20:19:36 AnMaster: i s/byte/char/ previously 20:19:40 i've tested the compilation 20:19:42 only main is missing 20:19:44 ah yes 20:19:48 you should make a library out of it in one line 20:19:52 you replace it before yeah 20:19:55 curl http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt | perl decsslang.pl | gcc -x c /dev/stdin 20:20:54 let's hope the :-) in the subject line offsets the anger of "Fuck you" 20:20:57 in the code 20:21:02 >:D 20:21:14 i'm such a bastard 20:21:26 Remember to paste the reaction 20:21:34 i will 20:21:37 Good- 20:22:25 ehird, you seemed irritated when I cared all about edge cases... 20:22:33 AnMaster: ... whut 20:22:34 ? 20:22:43 ehird, you have been that before.? 20:22:50 or are you denying it? 20:22:51 what are you talking about? 20:22:57 I'm trying to figure out any context at all 20:23:09 ehird, the context will happen later 20:23:21 ais523: can you tell me what AnMaster is talking about? 20:23:29 ehird, however, were you or were you not irritated when I started talking about edge cases before 20:23:32 as far as I can tell from his last line, he's replying to something I'll say in the future 20:23:41 both for cfunge, and for other stuff 20:23:42 ehird, ^ 20:23:50 like new language ideas you had 20:23:55 ehird, yes or no? 20:24:00 AnMaster: I don't answer questions without context. :) 20:24:11 ehird, there is none 20:24:19 unless you answer it 20:24:21 Then 'tis a pointless question. 20:24:33 ehird, it could be argued that this "no such language" is such an edge case of the DMCA law anyway... 20:24:43 not that I'm saying I consider it so 20:24:46 so? 20:24:49 -!- nooga has joined. 20:24:53 i just did it for fun 20:24:57 ehird, so edge cases aren't important? ;P 20:24:58 and I don't think the concept is legally valid 20:25:01 I'd say there's so very much sickeningly wrong with the DMCA. 20:25:13 pikhq, agreed 20:25:26 Step 1. Repeal DMCA. Step 2. Repeal patents. Step 3. Repeal copyright law. 20:25:39 ↑ Nevergetelectedeverneverforeverintheus Anonymous 20:25:45 3-step program to not getting elected in the US. 20:25:46 http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps 20:25:56 ehird: Step 4. Create sane copyright law. Step 5. Create sane patent law. 20:26:13 ehird: Oh, that stance will work. ... 50 years from now. 20:26:20 pikhq: sane copyright law. Right. Also, go about making paint dry faster. 20:26:28 FURTHERMORE, any water caught being wet will be prosecuted. 20:26:29 ... When the Pirate Party is completely and utterly done in Europe. 20:27:12 the only part of copyright law that might be worth keeping in any form, is preventing someone taking your work and changing the name 20:27:12 Uh.. that just sounds odd when directly translated from Swedish 20:27:15 At least to me 20:27:17 nooga: Ah, The Last Question. One of my favorite Asimov short stories. 20:27:24 FireFly: It is a bit of an odd name. 20:27:27 Piratpartiet sounds nicer. 20:27:30 Heh 20:27:48 ehird: many things in swedish sound nice 20:27:55 i like to hear that language 20:28:05 ehird: Well, that *is* the only enforcable bit. 20:28:17 FireFly, which one? 20:28:25 "the Pirate Party" 20:28:32 pikhq: first impression: MULTIVAC -> google 20:28:34 pikhq: OTOH the actual enforcing of it isn't very good and there's a ton of gray areas 20:28:42 http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps << tl;dr 20:28:43 last impression: AC -> God 20:28:57 AC = Singularity, more like. 20:29:01 oh 20:29:03 Rather rubbish singularity though, letting us die out like that. 20:29:04 yea 20:29:08 And then "exiting time" whatever that means. 20:29:08 that's more suitable name 20:29:15 i don't believe in God 20:29:18 FireFly, hm.. men är det inte "piratpartiet"? 20:29:19 Don't give a damn about the Universe existing if everyone's kicked the bucket :) 20:29:22 AnMaster: yes, piratpartiet 20:29:26 indeed 20:29:28 Jo 20:29:34 so why are you saying it sounds odd? 20:29:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party 20:29:44 nice that sweden's progressing politically faster than others 20:29:46 isn't "party" the relevant translation of a political party? 20:29:47 It just sounds odd in English 20:29:51 Yes, it is 20:29:56 then why odd 20:30:01 I fail to see it -_- 20:30:03 But I still find it odd, I'm used to the swedish wording, all right? 20:30:07 ok 20:30:14 I've never seen it in english before :P 20:30:23 FireFly: Doesn't sound odd to me. 20:30:47 Well, you're not natively Swedish speaking 20:30:49 * pikhq looks forward to having Pirates in office. 20:30:53 Hey, last I heard Piratpartiet was the 4th largest party. 20:30:55 Now it's third. 20:30:56 Neato. 20:30:59 No, but I'm natively English speaking. 20:31:07 Yeah, and I'm not 20:31:09 Which is my point 20:31:20 ehird, hm...? 20:31:33 ehird: Yeah. It's estimated that it'll get a couple seats in EU Parliament. 20:31:34 AnMaster: Piratpartiet have the third largest membership of any Swedish political party. 20:31:38 Pretty kick-ass. 20:31:38 ah 20:32:06 (here's to election systems that aren't winner takes all) 20:32:11 but is it third in opinionsundersökningarna (wth is that in English?) for the EU election? 20:32:16 go Europeon elections! 20:32:22 Euro peon 20:32:24 Europeon 20:32:26 hm 20:32:29 *European 20:32:32 The words peon and peonage are derived from the Spanish peón (pe'on). It has a range of meanings but its primary usage is to describe labourers with little control over their employment conditions. 20:32:51 whoops 20:32:55 !help 20:32:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 20:33:00 ^^^ Now categoricalish. 20:33:06 ais523: i like how the BNP are on the european election ballot. made me think for a second :) 20:33:28 ehird: British Nationalist? 20:33:28 LMAO 20:33:31 pikhq: yeah 20:33:41 they're basically nazis 20:33:49 and naturally hate the EU with a fiery passion 20:33:58 AnMaster: Approximately 8% of the Swedish population will vote Pirate, according to polls... 20:34:07 ehird: They just want to destroy it from the inside! 20:34:07 pikhq, hm. Source? 20:34:13 I read it as 6% or so last time 20:34:30 http://www.dn.se/fordjupning/europa2009/piratpartiet-far-tva-mandat-i-ny-matning-1.879371 20:34:44 (read claim from Wikipedia, since I don't speak Swedish) 20:34:45 pikhq: the best part of the BNP is UKIP (UK Independence Party). They claim they're the only party that wants to leave the EU (hem hem BNP don't count hrrrr) and opposes immigration and blah BUT DON'T BE SWAYED BY EXTREMISTS! Don't vote for a "racist party" that stands for our racist ideals (hem hem bnp HACK COUGH)! Vote for us! 20:35:03 "far tva mandat i ny matning" 20:35:06 lets see... 20:35:07 pikhq: FÖRDJUPNING. 20:35:08 ehird: UKIP != BNP 20:35:10 that logo looks awesome 20:35:11 ais523: I know 20:35:14 ais523: read my message again 20:35:17 ehird: Oh, "brilliant" 20:35:20 I meant that the best thing about the BNP is UKIP 20:35:24 ehird: ok 20:35:25 "travels 'tva' places in new feeding" 20:35:27 rather than 20:35:44 FÖRDJUPNING. = RECESS. 20:35:45 "receives two places in new measurement" 20:35:48 sez googol 20:35:57 ehird, um. That may be one meaning 20:35:59 not common 20:36:07 ehird: Call me ignorant about their views, but... Isn't the EU damned good for all involved? 20:36:09 * AnMaster wonders how to properly translate 20:36:16 ehird, "deeper studies"? 20:36:19 something like that 20:36:21 pikhq: Yes. The BNP/UKIP are crazy right wingers. 20:36:30 pikhq: BNP descends from the National Front. 20:36:36 Well, the GBP is stronger than the Euro. 20:36:56 pikhq: founder of the BNP once said: 20:37:00 "Mein Kampf is my bible." 20:37:02 ehird, see what I mean? 20:37:02 GregorR-L: Which is part of why the UK isn't part of the Euro Zone. 20:37:04 so, yeah. 20:37:10 AnMaster: yes 20:37:13 AnMaster: "INDEPTH." 20:37:13 ehird: Oh, so they're the national socialists. 20:37:18 pikhq: Yeah, but the EU isn't exactly happy about that :P 20:37:26 ehird, that could work. But yes it has several possible translations 20:37:27 pikhq: Yeah 20:37:29 depending on context. 20:37:33 GregorR-L: They do permit it, but... Yeah. 20:37:40 pikhq: not really 20:37:44 pikhq, ehird: IIRC, it's some loophole. 20:37:44 the UK negotiated an exception 20:37:47 If I get famous some day, I'll say something in the lines of "The following statement is a lie. " 20:37:50 other countries used loopholes 20:37:53 Just to see how much I get quoted for it 20:37:54 Ah 20:37:56 but the UK just voted themselves an exception 20:38:06 GregorR-L: It's something explicitly written in for the UK. 20:38:13 ehird, which is why automatic translators suck in general. Because a one-to-one mapping usually doesn't work to create an idiomatic (or even correct) translation. 20:38:27 i think denmark also has an exception, while sweden is loopy 20:38:32 GregorR-L: Other countries in the EU without the Euro are claiming to not have an economy that could support it yet. 20:38:38 oerjan: sweden don't use a loophole 20:38:44 they use the officially-sanctioned "our market is too tin" 20:38:45 y 20:38:46 oerjan: I did use the present perfect progressive tense; I just didn't do so in my announcement that I was doing so. 20:38:51 AnMaster: FÖRDJUPNING. → Recess | in-depth | bathtub 20:38:55 ehird: that _is_ their loophole 20:38:55 Useful :D 20:39:00 ehird, No way about the latter one 20:39:01 or 20:39:02 oerjan: but that's not a loophole 20:39:04 oerjan: it's by design 20:39:07 I never heard it meaning bathtub 20:39:09 AnMaster: No, no, I'm sure about this. It's science. 20:39:17 AnMaster: It also means large green baby. 20:39:26 ehird, bathtub is "badkar" 20:39:31 And terrorist communist mutant. 20:39:36 And jumping on top of Fords. 20:39:43 And bad car is "basthub" 20:39:55 :D 20:40:07 you know what would be fun? 20:40:20 if everyone on the planet apart from one person swapped the meanings of yes/no suddenly one day 20:40:21 ehird, fördjupning probably doesn't mean ALL the meanings that recess has even 20:40:25 only some of them 20:40:28 like, we can vote for the most hated person in the world 20:40:30 and do it to them 20:40:39 AnMaster: which ones? 20:40:59 from google translate: "a small concavity" "an enclosure that is set back or indented" 20:41:07 but not the other ones listed in the first group 20:41:17 :D 20:41:39 ehird: why not make that one person swap instead? 20:41:39 ehird, so now you know why translating back and forth with google nevers ends up at the same text 20:41:45 comes to the same thing, but is much less annoying 20:41:48 you don't have to replace books, etc 20:41:56 ais523: how? you'd have to convince them to. the idea is to make them go insane 20:42:06 AnMaster: I already knew why 20:42:09 ehird: there are easier ways 20:42:16 ehird, ah 20:42:33 "This tie has not been shown. The prosecutor must show that Carl Lundström personally has interacted with the user King Kong, who may very well be found in the jungles of Cambodia..." —Pirate Bay trial 20:42:46 Chewbacca! 20:42:48 ehird, anyway, isn't correct machine translation a strong AI problem iirc? 20:42:48 the King Kong defence was great 20:42:56 AnMaster: Comprehending things in general is. 20:43:01 And translation is comprehending then restating. 20:43:01 it's not the Chewbacca defence, in that it generally makes sense 20:43:11 ais523: reminds me of it, though 20:43:14 It's still great, though. 20:43:16 ehird, yes 20:43:22 ehird, so why does google even TRY 20:43:24 :/ 20:43:31 AnMaster: It's incredibly useful 20:43:33 because in general it is gibberish 20:43:37 I've read news articles with it before 20:43:38 let's ask MULTIVAC 20:43:38 And no 20:43:39 hm, so translation is compilation 20:43:39 :f 20:43:41 AnMaster: Because Google wants strong AI. 20:43:41 for a native speaker, it's easy to understand 20:43:49 you just have to fill in the gaps 20:43:51 ehird, well, maybe "to English" works better than "to Swedish" 20:43:52 and you can very well get the gist 20:43:58 AnMaster: 'cuz english is more common 20:44:03 AnMaster: To English works decently. 20:44:05 ehird, sadly so 20:44:17 problem is that some laguages have more complex constructs and vocabulary than english 20:44:17 why sadly? 20:44:18 It certainly isn't correct English, but it at least gives you a clue. 20:44:24 why is english any worse than swedish? 20:44:31 ehird, It would be fun if it was YOU who had the problems with not being a native speaker instead of me. 20:44:32 so that the translator must deduce right words and cases from the context 20:44:35 :P 20:44:42 and for this, culture is required 20:44:45 AnMaster: If I wanted to learn Swedish I would. 20:44:54 what i would really like is a tool that does only grammar parsing of the text and word translations 20:45:01 ehird, You would still not manage it as well as a native speaker 20:45:09 because that are both things that machines can do 20:45:13 AnMaster: I meant, if I learned Swedish I would have your problems. 20:45:21 jix_: no, grammatical parsing is not perfect 20:45:21 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection timed out). 20:45:30 ehird: i didn't say perfect 20:45:31 jix_: sentences in spoken languages often aren't 100% grammatically correct 20:45:33 jix_: Parsing English is probably strong AI. 20:45:35 (btw machines can do anything) 20:45:36 heck I bet it would be harder than English. Since you have simple rules for when it is "a" and when it is "an". We don't have simple ones for "en" and "ett" iirc. 20:45:53 rather, it is more like things being either "le" or "la" in French. 20:45:54 jix_: Now, doing that with *Lojban*? 20:45:56 Easy. 20:46:10 lojban's official grammar is written in yacc. but it's terribly arcane yacc 20:46:23 * ais523 thinks that the BF Joust leaderboard is pretty atm 20:46:26 ehird: Actually, Lojban's official grammar is written in BNF. 20:46:38 pikhq: ok let me rephrase it... it's easier to get computesr to parse grammer than to get them to restate sentences in a different langauge 20:46:39 because all the defence programs are grouped in the middle 20:46:40 ("Real ganstas sip on yacc, you just generate a parser") 20:46:43 so you get a big block of 0s 20:46:43 pikhq: You sure? 20:46:44 why arcane yacc? 20:46:45 :P 20:46:48 The Yacc code they publish is generally thought to be equivalent, but the BNF is the official one. 20:46:48 AnMaster: just is 20:46:52 ehird, why 20:46:54 also 20:46:54 :/ 20:46:58 AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW 20:47:01 I DIDN'T WRITE IT 20:47:01 ok 20:47:05 ehird, got a link? 20:47:07 Presumably because it's old 20:47:09 sentences may be ambiguous 20:47:10 AnMaster: http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300 20:47:28 hmm not as arcane as I recall 20:47:38 I am disappointed that nobody pickde up on my quote 20:48:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 20:48:48 " preparser will not lex the individual words per their normal selma'o; used to quote ungrammatical Lojban" 20:48:51 heh? 20:49:01 "equivalent to the * or ? writing" 20:49:03 hm 20:49:05 yes? 20:49:17 ehird, you have special quotes for "free form" language or something? 20:49:29 AnMaster: if you want to quote english/french/C/etc, there is syntax for that 20:49:34 ah 20:49:39 there's a difference between, e.g. in english 20:49:43 why is the source code comments in English btw 20:49:43 [["dog" would work]] 20:49:48 [["return 4;" would work]] 20:49:58 AnMaster: because most lojban speakers aren't fluent 20:50:05 and it is of interest to non-speakers too 20:50:19 iirc there's only ~3 fluent lojban speakers (can think & talk in lojban without mental translation) 20:50:30 heh 20:50:32 A large part of Lojban's interest is in AI research. 20:50:54 ehird, I can actually think in both Swedish an English. I think in English when programming definitely 20:50:55 It's certainly easier to do language handling when you have a syntax. 20:51:01 or a mix I guess 20:51:09 AnMaster: but do you think in swedish for a split second and then translate to english? 20:51:12 most likely 20:51:15 even if you don't notice 20:51:20 ehird, not so that I notice it at least 20:51:33 not sure how you could measure if I notice it or not 20:51:52 * pikhq should learn Toki Pona. 20:51:56 ehird, but some stuff I definitely don't know what they are called in Swedish 20:52:00 when it comes to programming 20:52:09 pikhq: it's easy; an afternoon's work 20:52:13 IF your brain is wired for it 20:52:14 ehird, I had problems trying to translate to the Swedish terms when talking about programming in Swedish 20:52:18 I am unable to learn any new languages 20:52:20 ehird: when programming i usually think in english too 20:52:24 I can learn the terms, how to put it together, ... 20:52:29 but my brain never adds a new language to my system 20:52:32 ehird: because for many terms and expresions i don't even know the translations 20:52:34 :( 20:52:42 jix_, same as me then 20:52:53 Mi eblas lerni lingvojn. 20:52:53 ;) 20:52:54 I have no clue what the correct term for "array" is in Swedish for example 20:52:57 pikhq: also, Toki Pona relies on saphir-whorf being strongly true 20:52:58 it is not 20:53:07 pretty sure I heard it though... was something extremely silly 20:53:10 oh yes right 20:53:15 "fält" iirc 20:53:20 which sounds more like "field" 20:53:22 than array 20:53:31 completely illogical IMO 20:53:37 not only sounds 20:53:38 means more 20:53:43 ehird: I'd assume Sonja knew that. Linguist and all. 20:53:47 pikhq: nope: 20:53:51 and i notice that i have real problems in german conversations about programming 20:53:53 lemme find some quacky quotes 20:54:10 ehird, so yes I'm pretty sure I think in English when programming 20:54:28 pikhq: but basically, the site says that it changes your thinking to be positive and shit 20:54:36 Face palm. 20:54:41 like i want to say something and mid sentence i notice i just can't ... 20:54:54 lament was one of the first toki pona people thingy and he says sonja is batshit insane :) 20:55:07 ehird, and I just tried to translate what I wrote above to Swedish. Took about 10 seconds. If I had thought it in Swedish surely it would be easy to backtranslate it? 20:55:16 AnMaster: not necessarily 20:55:23 I seem to recall Sukoshi looking into it, as well. 20:55:26 jix_: I tend to just switch to english in that case (usually causing angry looks) 20:55:35 Hmm. Okay, toki pona? Not worth it. 20:55:42 ehird, heck, I can express things in English I can't in Swedish and vice versa. 20:55:50 tetha: i often end up in an awfull mix of german and english 20:55:50 pikhq: as a language it's nice though 20:55:55 AnMaster: then you're probably fluent to a degree 20:56:43 ehird, I'm not of course as fluent in English as I'm in Swedish. But for certain topics I'm probably more fluid in English yeah. Like programming. 20:56:47 I think the worst part about learning a language is finding a place to use it a lot 20:57:19 kulatukalato 20:57:23 ehird, but I wouldn't know my way around an English kitchen. I know there are stuff like "spatulas" but I can't map them to the Swedish words, nor what they actually are. 20:57:25 tetha: that's true... i failed at learning french at school because i just didn't need it 20:57:36 * AnMaster idly wounders what "durkslag" is in English 20:57:38 coo lah too kah lah too 20:57:48 it's actually "spatulus" and/or "spatuli" 20:57:50 * nescience koffs 20:57:50 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:57:53 where a is long a 20:57:56 while english was no problem because i was reading english texts, or rather grepped throught them for information i needed before i even started learning english at school... 20:57:58 say that 10 times fast 20:58:04 kulatukalato is probably a nice eodermdrome graph... 20:58:10 ehird, what would you call this: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Durchschlag.jpg 20:58:18 I would call it "durkslag" 20:58:20 and then when i started hanging around on irc i wrote a lot of english too 20:58:20 10 TIMES FAST!!! 20:58:23 AnMaster: sieve 20:58:36 i'd say that there are many days where i write more english than i talk german... 20:58:36 ehird: Easy, compared to some Esperanto tonguetwisters. 20:58:40 ehird, wikipedia thinks it is "colander" in English... Hm. 20:58:45 Either you fail or wikipedia fails 20:58:47 hmm... tuka forms a cycle, t also connects to o, u and a both also connect to l 20:58:49 AnMaster: oh right. 20:58:56 ehird, oh? 20:58:57 pikhq: gimme a pronunciation file, I'm having troubles pronouncing it 20:59:03 Gah, just wrapping my tongue around 'scienco'. 20:59:08 AnMaster: colander subset-of sieve 20:59:19 A colander (also known as a Cullender) is a type of sieve, used in cooking for separating liquids and solids. It is much like a strainer. It is conventionally made of a light metal, such as aluminium or thinly rolled stainless steel, although it is not uncommon for it to be made of plastic. A colander is pierced with a pattern of small holes (or slots in plastic colanders) that let the liquid drain through, but retain the solids inside. Colanders often t 20:59:21 ake the form of a large bowl with a built-in stand to allow water to drain out the bottom as well as the sides. 20:59:42 ehird, ah. sieve translates to "såll" in Swedish iirc. And såll and durkslag are in Swedish both subsets of some unnamed superset. 20:59:47 :/ 20:59:55 what's a såll? 21:00:07 a sieve? 21:00:12 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Såll 21:00:21 no en interwiki link 21:00:31 interwiki translates sieve to "sil" in Swedish 21:00:36 which I would claim is a third type 21:00:58 pikhq: if you do make a pronunciation file, note that there's stress on the start of every syllable 21:00:59 i think 21:01:06 the picture there I would also call a sil 21:01:13 well, not total stress, that'd just be overpowering 21:01:15 w/e 21:01:30 ehird, I think this is a case of non-simple mappings between the languages 21:02:46 "both subsets of some unnamed superset." 21:02:51 Programming parallells <3 21:02:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:02:56 FireFly: ... 21:02:59 FireFly, no? 21:02:59 Logic parallels. 21:03:02 Set theory maybe 21:03:03 I guess 21:03:04 Not programming. 21:03:05 ais523: hm lots of redundancy. atotulukal. 21:03:09 anmaster: what is this that you're looking to do with linguisticy stuff? 21:03:10 Meh, oh well 21:03:14 what was the question?? 21:03:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:03:18 oerjan: words start with consonants and end with vowels, always 21:03:19 or ehird, either one of you. 21:03:32 also, a consonant is always followed by a vowel 21:03:33 psygnisfive, err? 21:03:35 cvcvcvcv 21:03:38 not sure 21:03:55 ehird: latotuluka then 21:04:10 psygnisfive: pronounce kulatukalato into an audial file, gimme. koo lah too kah lah too, a is long a. small stress on the start of every syllable, no other stress 21:04:35 oerjan: lah toh too loo kah 21:04:50 ehird: "long a" is meaningless to me, and "stress on the start of every syllable" but no other stress is also meaningless 21:04:57 psygnisfive: a as in father 21:05:02 and fine, if it's meaningless ignore it :) 21:05:04 stress is a contrastive thing. you cannot stress every syllable because then there is no stress at all. 21:05:09 well, duh 21:05:11 I knew that 21:05:19 i was just trying to express the concept :P 21:05:27 the consonants are pronounced a little bit more strongly than the vowels 21:05:29 furthermore, stress is a property of syllables as a whole, not parts of syllables 21:05:31 but there's no stress 21:05:37 so thar 21:05:41 a little bit more strongly pronounced? 21:05:44 i dont know what this means. 21:05:48 psygnisfive: oh, forget it 21:05:50 "no stress" 21:05:55 ehird, what does this word mean 21:05:59 and from which language is it 21:06:08 AnMaster: nothing concrete, and I just made it up 21:06:18 it sounds nice, and it's the compound of two words 21:06:20 kula and tukalato 21:06:24 ehird, I bet Deewiant could manage that nicely 21:06:26 also, i presume when you write "koo lah too kah lah too" you mean the "oo"s to be as in the english word "too" 21:06:27 probably 21:06:30 psygnisfive: yep 21:06:30 ehird, it looks like .fi to me 21:06:30 yes? 21:06:32 ok 21:06:51 so phonetically, [kulatukalatu] 21:07:00 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Client Quit). 21:07:26 psygnisfive: wait, no 21:07:32 i must have said it wrong 21:07:33 it's 21:07:49 kulatukalato, koo lah too kah lah toh 21:07:55 ok 21:07:58 o is oh, u is oo 21:08:01 a is as in father 21:08:19 and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping 21:08:28 absolutely not! 21:08:31 ok 21:08:37 i'm trying to keep the pronunciation as simple as possible :P 21:08:44 so what is it you're trying to do now? 21:08:49 psygnisfive: beats me 21:08:58 what is this word for? :P 21:09:06 existing! 21:09:07 Very .fi, yes. 21:09:20 Deewiant: yeah, .fi is an inspiration because it sounds so nice :) 21:09:34 this word is plausible for so many world languages its not funny 21:09:45 hawaiian, for instance, is i think uniformly CV 21:10:07 hmm anyone ever tried to make a language (spoken, not programming) that has a minmal set of words? 21:10:19 yes 21:10:21 psygnisfive: so get to pronouncing it! :P 21:10:21 Basic English 21:10:24 jix_: Toki Pona. 21:10:43 Deewiant, can you pronounce it? 21:10:57 oh, ehird, you want me to record myself saying it? 21:10:57 ok. 21:11:06 ehird: So, Esperanto phoneme-grapheme mapping. 21:11:13 and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping <-- ? 21:11:13 AnMaster: Of course, it's trivial :-P 21:11:16 what do you mean 21:11:20 Deewiant, not to me! 21:11:21 psygnisfive: yeah, 'cuz I keep tripping over it :) 21:11:55 Meh, pronunciation is trivial as long as you can do the individual sounds 21:11:59 anmaster: english cannot pronounce /kulatukalato/ as [kulatukalato] because of the phonology of the language 21:12:03 Deewiant: not fast enough 21:12:39 ehird: ? 21:12:57 Deewiant: you can pronounce each sound individually, but when you try and run them together into a word you trip, is my experience 21:13:05 in english, word-initial and stressed-syllable-initial stops like k and t become aspirated, and syllable-initial intervocalic /t/ turns into something roughly like an /r/ 21:13:50 furthermore, english doesnt have pure [o], it has a diphthong, and english stress patterns disallow uniform stress on this word as well 21:14:12 ehird: IME that only happens with tongue-twisty phrases 21:14:14 psygnisfive: damn, english really hates this word 21:14:18 Deewiant: your 21:14:22 the most natural stress pattern for me is 'ku.la.tu.ka.,la.to 21:14:22 *you're 21:14:23 finnish 21:14:26 you can pronounce anything 21:14:27 psygnisfive, hm 21:14:28 :-P 21:14:33 where ku has primary stress and la has secondary stress 21:14:59 Deewiant, IMO kulatukalato IS tongue-twisty 21:15:13 also, english often reduces unstressed vowels 21:15:34 AnMaster: Not IMO :-P 21:16:05 AnMaster: Nah. 21:16:08 ais523: i get it down to otukatula 21:16:14 pikhq, brain-twisty? 21:16:16 Might just be because I've got a bit of experience with Japanese, though. 21:16:27 SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ] 21:16:29 oerjan, did you mean AnMaster? 21:16:33 ais523: hm minimal eodermdroming is probably related to eulerian graphs... 21:16:36 AnMaster: no 21:16:38 AnMaster: no he didn't 21:16:48 oerjan: it's probably related to something 21:16:54 I can't see what he is replying to 21:16:55 sorry, there'd be secondary stress on tu as well 21:16:55 * AnMaster looks 21:16:56 eulerian graphs seems likely 21:16:58 psygnisfive: is this the only language in the world where you can just put the word in brackets to get the IPA? :P 21:17:00 so ['kʰu:lətʰu:kə,la:ɾoʊ] 21:17:07 you need to figure out which edges to double 21:17:14 ehird: what do you mean? 21:17:22 psygnisfive: kulatukalato → [kulatukalato] 21:17:29 right but what language? 21:17:35 the one kulatukalato is in 21:17:48 ais523: for my program it was easy because most of the graphs were trees, you just need to find the two farthest points 21:17:49 oh. well, it depends a lot on your font, actually 21:17:51 :p 21:18:11 psygnisfive, " SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]" <-- is that k rased to the power of h? 21:18:20 no, k^h means aspirated k 21:18:28 psygnisfive: English pronunciation not only sounds but also looks ugly, I see 21:18:30 ehird: There's a language that is written soley in the subset of IPA that describes its phonemes. 21:18:30 how do you manage that 21:18:39 wait 21:18:44 is that the normal k sound? 21:18:52 Deewiant: your native language surely is similar. 21:18:53 define normal k sound 21:18:54 Normal English k 21:18:57 psygnisfive: finnish 21:19:04 so gray area I'd imagine 21:19:11 anmaster, what do you mean normal k sound? 21:19:24 As does Toki pona... 21:19:34 psygnisfive: I haven't actually seen pretty much any of that extended IPA (I even forget what it's called) so I can't say 21:19:36 also ehird: what i mean is, the font im using has "a" as a simple lowercase "cursive" a 21:19:45 ah 21:19:46 which is the IPA symbol for the english a 21:19:48 s/graph/path/ 21:19:56 but the spanish a is denoted in ipa with the times-new-roman kind of a 21:20:02 with the little tail over its head 21:20:18 my font doesnt distinguish them, nor do most people in writing, but ipa does 21:20:18 There are code points for all the variants, you don't have to rely on fonts :-P 21:20:20 so it depends on your font 21:20:47 ['kʰu:lətʰu:kə,lɑ:ɾoʊ], to be certain. 21:21:09 psygnisfive: how's that recording going 21:21:10 deewiant: extended IPA? none of this is extended IPA. 21:21:14 ehird: hush you! 21:21:43 psygnisfive: Isn't ʰ one of those things that's normally omitted 21:21:50 no 21:21:53 never. 21:21:58 Meh. 21:21:59 hmm, it seems that bing is active already 21:22:02 and live.com already redirects there 21:22:02 aspiration is a standard thing in many many world languages 21:22:32 http://www.bing.com/search?q=how+is+babby+formed&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all 21:22:36 it looks exactly like google. 21:22:38 english has aspiration in certain contexts, but not the kind that distinguishes sounds, korean and hindi have phonemic aspiration 21:22:52 so hindi and korean k^h is distinct from just k 21:23:51 psygnisfive: I'm thinking of broad vs. narrow transcription 21:24:14 well but then you're delving into the realm of phonology 21:24:17 i think in norwegian aspiration and voicing is so tight together you could almost choose which of them you consider primary... 21:24:30 broad transcriptions are broad on in that they're phonemically influenced 21:24:36 that is 21:24:50 psygnisfive: :| 21:25:13 Things are only distinguished according to what speakers of the language distinguish, with broad transcriptions... 21:25:23 if i write [kæt] as a broad phonetic transcription of english "cat", you /understand/ that the k is aspirated, and im just being lazy. 21:26:18 its not a tight, phonetic transcription, there's influence from phonology in how you're transcribing it 21:26:24 which is fine, because in context you understand this 21:26:52 but when, for instance, you're doing research into the phonology of a language, especially an unfamiliar language, broad transcriptions are impossible 21:27:03 because you dont know what sounds the speakers distinguish and what they dont 21:27:30 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:27:34 Quite. 21:27:41 so if you're not sufficiently close to the acoustics/articulation, you might transcribe two words as [kæt], and the speakers can hear a difference but you're not noting it down 21:27:44 ehird, stop kicking me 21:27:45 :| 21:27:48 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:28:02 ok fine, keep kicking me 21:28:11 no. 21:28:15 :( 21:28:17 :D 21:28:52 psygnisfive: RECORD IT AND I'LL KICK/UNKICK YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR WISHES 21:28:56 MWAHAHAHA 21:29:22 i have the recording, but im NOT GONNA SEND IT 21:29:24 NYA NYA 21:29:38 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:29:43 ehird does it wrong :( 21:29:47 /kick psygnisfive 21:30:02 oh noes D: 21:30:24 SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND 21:31:36 patience, young padawan 21:32:06 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/kulatukalato.wav 21:32:11 warning: gayness. 21:32:40 thats with your even stress as well. 21:33:19 psygnisfive: in the strict pronunciation, the u is not oo enough 21:33:34 psygnisfive: What's the star in u̟ 21:33:43 unfortunately english "oo" is not [u] 21:33:45 Or whatever that blob there is 21:34:01 psygnisfive: that's ok, I can sacrifice strict IPAness because the u in your strict one sounds ugly :) 21:34:02 not smooth 21:34:03 its really more like [ʊu] or [ʊw] 21:34:17 i'd prefer [ʊu] I think 21:34:39 deewiant: the + under a symbol means "advanced tongue root", i believe 21:34:53 either that, or it means "fronted" 21:35:05 Cheers; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_tongue_root it seems to be indeed 21:35:09 OH MY FUCKING GOD 21:35:13 LucasArts today announced two Monkey Island projects in the works for the Xbox 360, Wii and PC. 21:35:13 Starting in just a few weeks, Telltale will première the Tales of Monkey Island; a game featuring a new epic storyline that will unfold in five monthly episodes on PC and WiiWare. 21:35:18 THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE 21:35:23 yah, fronted, sorry. 21:35:29 atr is with a left-tack 21:35:31 IT WAS MATHEMATICALLY IMPROVED THAT LUCASARTS WOULD NEVER MAKE A NEW MONKEY ISLAND GAME IN LIKE 2004 21:35:42 joy to the world \o/ 21:35:42 | 21:35:42 >\ 21:36:00 psygnisfive: I can't see the difference in my font :-P 21:36:06 well 21:36:07 But you say that's a right-tack 21:36:12 ATR is -| 21:36:17 RTR is |- 21:36:24 and "advanced"/"fronted" is + 21:36:44 OH MY GOD 21:36:46 RON GILBERT IS INVOLVED 21:36:51 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:36:51 WHAT THE *FUCK* 21:37:01 Anyway, that's what the English /u/ is IMO, not [u] 21:37:15 u_+? 21:37:31 or atr u? 21:37:37 More forward u 21:37:52 so u_+ (using sampa, sice .. fuck ipa for now :p) 21:38:08 yeah, no, its not really actually. maybe in some dialects, i dont know 21:38:11 ........... 21:38:25 but in standard english /u/ is [Uu] or [Uw] 21:38:52 GregorR-L: what 21:39:22 \o| \o/ |o/ \o| \o/ |o/ 21:39:23 | | | | | | 21:39:23 |\ |\ |\ /´\ |\ /´\ 21:39:33 psygnisfive: This just came to mind from when I tried to argue that Finnish 'kuu' /ku:/ and English 'moon' /mu:n/ have completely different /u/ sounds. 21:39:34 psygnisfive: Fuck SAMPA, I've got functioning Unicode now. 21:39:54 (Not much of an argument since almost nobody here knows what 'kuu' is supposed to sound like, but anyway.) 21:39:55 deewiant: some dialects of english, some british ones i think, use [Iu] or [Iw] for /u/! 21:40:12 pikhq: so do i, but in these fonts the diacritics are hard to see 21:40:31 psygnisfive: Þy font ſucks. 21:40:45 deewiant: sure they're different, english /u/ isnt [u] 21:40:57 psygnisfive: can you rerecord with pure ipa but the u being more oo 21:40:58 pikhq: "suckeÞ" 21:41:01 pikhq: _I_ can see it, but im being a) lazy in typing, and b) kind to deewiant 21:41:11 ehird: no. 21:41:14 pikhq: o̘ o̙ 21:41:15 do it yourself 21:41:16 oerjan: ſuckeþ 21:41:22 pikhq: Those both look pretty much identical here :-P 21:41:39 ʃuckeθ 21:41:48 Deewiant: Hmm. Sure enough, they do. Wow. 21:41:51 which isnt "sucketh" at all but who cares :D 21:41:54 !userinterps 21:41:55 psygnisfive: i can't say it 21:41:55 Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 slashes yodawg 21:41:55 psygnisfive: Quite, and I wanted to figure out what the correct narrow transcriptions would be and somewhat failed. 21:41:58 * pikhq should up the points on this some day 21:41:58 * oerjan wonders why the capital one looks _smaller_ 21:42:01 !show bct 21:42:02 bf (sending via DCC) 21:42:04 It helps that dialects matter. 21:42:15 Hahah, bitwise cyclic tag. 21:42:39 oerjan, capital eth? 21:42:45 Þ vs þ you mean? 21:42:49 yes 21:43:04 because capital letters in english never have descenders or ascenders and so are fixed to line height 21:43:15 i'spose 21:43:17 while lowercase eth has a descender and so is line-height + descender height 21:43:27 Hmm, I should obtain a microphone. 21:43:39 deewiant: might i recommend a logitech usb microphone. 21:43:44 its a good mic. 21:43:46 No, you might not! 21:43:50 Step one: Car-jack someone to get to Radio Shack ... 21:43:53 But you also might, and you did. 21:44:19 GregorR-L: Radio shack? Never been to a country where it operates, I don't think :-P 21:44:25 Lucky you. 21:44:38 I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cable. 21:44:40 radio shack can be pretty cool 21:44:40 Err 21:44:41 I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cables. 21:44:49 :-D 21:44:55 Windows-only USB cable 21:44:59 but only the ones that have lots of electronic hardware and stuff you can meddle with 21:45:14 cables and housing and switches and all sorts of stuff 21:45:16 psygnisfive: Those still exist? 21:45:20 psygnisfive: It appears that logitech makes quite a bit of microphones 21:45:40 GregorR-L: well, yes and no. all the radioshacks like that are really only like that in the very far back where hardly anyone ever goes. 21:45:48 But I guess you were talking about the "USB Desktop Microphone", which'd set me back 22 €. 21:45:53 yes. 21:46:03 adk, unpacking. 21:46:07 Alternatively I could get a "Dialog 320" for 7 €. 21:46:14 ping me if you're talking to me. 21:46:32 Not knowing anything about microphones really helps here. 21:46:46 OTOH, if I find things out I'll probably end up wanting a 200 € one. 21:47:44 im skeptical of expensive mics 21:47:48 mine sounds great 21:47:56 Deewiant: you only need an expensive mic for audio work 21:47:59 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 21:48:02 and ive heard wonderful sound out of simple phones 21:48:02 Yours looks expensive from where I'm standing :-P 21:48:06 so i dont know 21:48:18 You are reading "Return to Dark Castle", a choose-your-own adventure. You read about your character seeing a path to the dark castle! The book informs you that to run away, you must turn to page 63, and to enter the castle, you must turn to page 22. 21:48:18 To turn to page 63, turn to page 35. To turn to page 22, turn to page 3. 21:48:30 Below that there are 9 mics, above it there are 2 before the prices start hitting 50 € and up 21:48:34 by expensive i mean like 21:48:44 by expensive i mean like £800 mics 21:48:44 And I don't know jack about the differences between any of these. 21:48:52 GregorR-L: :D 21:48:55 or anything over £40 21:48:58 GregorR-L: :D 21:49:24 GregorR-L: :D 21:49:32 lament! HOW IS YOUR BANANA 21:49:37 O_O 21:49:40 BY BANANA 21:49:42 I MEAN 21:49:43 GRAPEFRUIT 21:50:37 Deewiant: http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.323 21:50:39 ehird: My spoon is too big. 21:50:49 I AM A BANANA 21:50:49 My spoon is too big! 21:50:51 pikhq: [insert whole of Rejected] 21:50:55 PARTY'S OVER 21:50:58 EVERYONE GO HOME 21:51:02 * pikhq needs to watch that again 21:51:06 * ehird tentatively preörders the new monkey island 21:51:16 i feel like I am a child again! wait. 21:51:47 Þou art? 21:52:26 * pikhq creätes odd pronoünciätiöns by adding diäresis everywhere that he can. 21:52:55 pikhq: s/pronounciation/pronunciation/ 21:52:58 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "non" 21:53:04 pikhq: pre-order 21:53:07 → preörder 21:53:22 Deëwiänt: Shut up. 21:53:25 But eo isn't a diphtong :P 21:53:29 Err 21:53:30 ehird: I know that. I just am having some fun. 21:53:37 "Diphthong" 21:54:06 Dip-thong 21:54:09 Ahahahah. Noün. 21:54:25 That makes me smile. With gleë. 21:55:15 gleë is the weirdest yet 21:55:23 Gleh-eh 21:55:24 Weïrd. 21:55:27 did you know that the reason english lacks diacritics is not because it has no use for them 21:55:30 Weh-ird 21:55:32 psygnisfive: dude 21:55:37 we know what the ¨ is for in english 21:55:38 psygnisfive: English does NOT lack diacritics. 21:55:39 Wierd 21:55:40 and it has it dammit 21:55:42 Mostly because "gle" is somewhat unpronouncable 21:55:43 quite the contrary, english has over a dozen vowels, we could use some diacritics 21:55:44 we love it 21:55:46 preëmptive 21:55:54 Don't be so nave. 21:55:55 psygnisfive: Dude, we're in the middle of a conversatiön aboüt English diäcritics. 21:56:05 i know, but you're wrong, english has no diacritics in standard usage :P 21:56:14 pikhq: How the hell do you pronounce "conversatee-on" P 21:56:14 ¨ doesn't really count 21:56:15 *:P 21:56:23 They're in use. Just not the norm. 21:56:26 psygnisfive: I always write nave. 21:56:26 because noone really uses it in normal orthography 21:56:35 and even when people do, its precisely in that word 21:56:39 GregorR-L: naîve? 21:56:39 naïve 21:56:40 psygnisfive: Fine, then. Rôle? 21:56:40 GregorR-L: conversayshee-on 21:56:54 now granted, english might borrow the diacritics from other languages 21:56:56 thats one thing 21:57:06 psygnisfive: None of the examples we've given are borrowed. 21:57:13 but i mean real proper diacritics, not just orthographic holdovers from borrowings. 21:57:18 GregorR-L: I gave one. 21:57:21 uh, GregorR-L naive is borrowed. 21:57:23 Rôle. 21:57:24 pikhq: HOW DARE OYU 21:57:32 i dont know this word rôle 21:57:45 "A role (sometimes spelled rôle as in French) or a social role is a set of connected behaviors, rights and obligations as conceptualized by actors in a social situation. It is an expected behavior in a given individual social status and social position. It is vital to both functionalist and interactionist understandings of society." 21:57:48 BORROWING 21:57:49 moving along 21:57:51 HOW DARE YOÜ! 21:57:57 naïve hails from French naïf 21:58:20 Haïls, yoü meän? 21:58:27 No, I don't. 21:58:34 the reason english lacks diacritics is because the printed orthography was designed back in the 1400s or whatever by a guy who was trained by the dutch printmakers 21:58:37 Deewiant: So yeah, if you want a mega-cheap microphone, the site I linked is goody :P 21:58:42 dutch, ofcourse, lacks diacritics as well 21:58:51 psygnisfive: For Middle English, no less. 21:59:02 psygnisfive: That's because Dutch is English pronounced with a funny accent. 21:59:06 and so we get out diacriticlessness from dutch diacriticlessness 21:59:10 GregorR-L: god isnt it 21:59:14 Goöd. 21:59:17 and FORGET west frisian 21:59:28 west frisian has very english-like phonology 21:59:44 GregorR-L: Yeah, but again I have no idea if they're any good or not :-P 21:59:44 infact, west frisian is, aside from the daughter languages, the closest relative of english 21:59:59 I can get random-ass mics here as well 22:00:02 So, other than Scots etc. 22:00:06 Deewiant: The reviews on that page are uncensored. If a product is crap, the reviews will SAY its crap. 22:00:15 english and the frisian languages form a language group called Anglo-Frisian 22:00:48 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "noün" <-- try a peter sellers impression 22:01:11 * pikhq looks up West Frisian. 22:01:13 hey, ehird, are you able to locate dialects? 22:01:17 no 22:01:21 :\ 22:01:32 so if i gave you an audio sample you couldnt be like 22:01:33 Holy fuck. It's like English that went through a different vowel shift. 22:01:42 GregorR-L: It's not so much 'is it crap' as it is 'how does it compare to non-random offerings'. 22:01:48 "oh hes from leeds" or whatever? 22:02:02 pikhq: its like english that didnt go though a vowel shift at all. 22:02:40 bread butter and green cheese is good english and good frees :D 22:03:00 psygnisfive: well maybe cockney i could detect 22:03:06 lame 22:03:07 well 22:03:08 psygnisfive: Nah, it seems to have had a few vowels shifted. 22:03:16 But a *few* vowels, not a Great Vowel Shift. 22:03:21 "noün" -> "no-youun"? 22:03:21 the dialect im curious about is charles stross's 22:03:26 (pronounced) 22:03:34 Or am I horribly wrong? 22:03:53 stross pronounces /iɹ/ as /ɛ:/ which is very interesting 22:04:11 so "year" is like "yearn" minus the n for him 22:04:28 whereas for mean "year" is "ear" with a y at the front 22:04:46 psygnisfive: the vowel in "year" is shorter than in "ear" for me 22:04:50 but otherwise I pronounce much like you 22:05:02 sure, it might be shorted, thats fine 22:05:07 length isnt important 22:05:11 its the quality that is 22:05:34 that's what SHE said 22:05:47 or perhaps he, in your case 22:06:07 he says you're a fag 22:06:27 i agree with him on that. 22:06:34 http://twitter.com/account/profile_image/levarburton?hreflang=en 22:06:42 is it just me or does levar burton look weird without the visor 22:06:54 ignoring the weight hes put on, ofcourse. 22:13:42 * jix_ is writing a bfjoust debugger in javascript 22:13:58 jix_: I was planning to do that, but never got around to it; so you'll likely do better than me 22:13:59 jix_: Swt. 22:14:13 Shall we all race? :P 22:14:26 i already have a working ruby prototype for this one 22:14:29 but it lacks UI 22:14:36 i enjoy the fact that i can completely fuck up vowels, turning /Or\/ into /eIr\/ or something 22:14:45 and all it does is make it sound irish 22:14:46 lol 22:14:46 and then i noticed that with javascript it would be easier to do a nice UI 22:14:47 ais523: an esolang-related anecdote about monkey island: one of the staff at the small company making it is on the esolang wiki 22:15:00 ah, interesting 22:15:00 the wonders of phonology and dialect perception 22:15:02 man 22:15:15 iirc 22:15:24 ehird : Whom! 22:15:28 Slereah_: don't reacll 22:15:29 What is his language? 22:15:33 such a beautiful thing, the phonological mapping 22:16:21 a thong of booty! 22:16:41 oerjan: lawl 22:16:50 hmm 22:16:52 perhaps I'm wrong 22:17:02 ehird: Perhaps your FACE is wrong. 22:18:12 !bf_txtgen Nom nom nom 22:18:14 77 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>>+.--.<-.>+.+.--.<.>+.+.--.>-. [309] 22:25:07 "Avast, ye scurvy sea-dogs and welcome to the motley crew of the good ship Pre-Order. I'll wager you've got booty on your mangy minds and we here at Telltale don't aim to disappoint you on that score. So lend me your pox-ridden ears and I'll tell you a tale of king's ransom in ill-begotten goods and services that be setting sail in your direction even as we speak!" 22:26:05 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 22:28:29 hrmph.i really want to experiment with a programming language that has type-driven parsing. :| 22:31:33 hmm this would be so much easier if there wasn't (...)*N and a bit easier if there wasn't (...{...}...)%N 22:31:48 jix_: YA I NO 22:32:18 * pikhq finds Western Frysian really interesting still 22:33:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:50 pikhq: Add an interpreter for Western Frysian to EgoBot. >_> :P 22:34:16 GregorR-L: I'm not about to do natural language parsing. 22:34:34 what about adding an English language, which just asks in #IRP and waits for the answer? 22:34:47 Even something that understands Western Frisian would be stunning. :p 22:35:06 pikhq: why not? natural language parsing is fun :D 22:35:22 ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p 22:35:33 not now, though 22:35:34 natural language syntax is such a pain in the ass, man 22:35:35 I need to go home 22:35:35 unnatural language processing is easier though 22:35:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:40:49 Okay, I found the single most evil Osmosian line. 22:41:10 "The osmosian font source is a hex string equal to ' ... Cue hundreds of lines of hex. 22:43:28 lol 22:44:20 OSMOOOOOSIAN! 22:49:56 !addinterp swedish sh chef | xargs echo 22:49:56 Interpreter swedish installed. 22:50:03 !swedish Now I can speak Swedish! 22:50:05 Noo I cun speek Svedeesh! Bork Bork Bork! 22:50:56 :D 22:50:58 !swedish Oh yeah? 22:50:59 Oh yeeh? Bork Bork Bork! 22:51:02 !addinterp godblessamerica sh dubya | xargs echo 22:51:02 !swedish derp derp 22:51:03 Interpreter godblessamerica installed. 22:51:03 derp derp 22:51:12 !godblessamerica I can also speak American. 22:51:13 I can also speak American. 22:51:16 ... 22:51:20 !swedish Oh yeah pinch my nipples 22:51:21 Oh yeeh peench my neepples 22:51:26 Hawt 22:51:30 But needs more bork 22:51:48 I didn't write it :P 22:52:35 !swedish a e i o u 22:52:36 a i i oo u 22:52:57 !swedish bork bork bork 22:52:57 burk bork bork 22:53:16 !swedish Something swedish 22:53:16 Sumetheeng svedeesh 22:53:24 !swedish Sumetheeng svedeesh 22:53:24 Soomezeeeng sfedeesh 22:53:31 !swedish Soomezeeeng sfedeesh 22:53:32 Suumezeeeng sffedeesh 22:53:32 !swedish En riktig svensk mening då? 22:53:33 !addinterp brit sh cockney | xargs echo 22:53:33 En reektig sfensk meneeng då? Bork Bork Bork! 22:53:33 Interpreter brit installed. 22:53:40 !brit Hello, world! 22:53:41 /usr/bin/xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option 22:53:44 Err 22:53:58 !swedish Suumezeeeng sffedeesh 22:53:58 Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh 22:54:10 !swedish Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh 22:54:11 Suuuumezeeeng sffffffffedeesh 22:54:16 sfffffffffffffffffffff 22:54:23 Good luck pronouncing that 22:54:31 !brit Hello, world! 22:54:32 'Allo, world! Right! 22:56:11 !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now! 22:56:12 Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork! 22:56:21 heh 22:56:26 UnMester 22:56:49 fungot, say things 22:56:50 Slereah_: it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :) 22:56:59 !swedish it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :) 22:57:00 it hes thuse-a veeerd ungles? vhets vrung veet yuoo! :) 22:57:05 firefly why "good luck"? 22:57:12 "sfffffffffffffffff" 22:57:17 somezeng sfedeesh is perfectly fine in english. 22:57:31 di eggduche 22:57:49 More, fungot 22:57:49 FireFly: oh really? let's see your sources then, hate her or love her songs!! he sounds like they're attempting to), this movie 22:57:51 "sf" is a perfectly acceptable consonant cluster in english. 22:58:04 What are some good command-line chatbots? 22:58:09 Modern, learning ones. 22:58:11 Fungot, say something that would be hilarious in swedish 23:00:49 What does fungot use? 23:00:50 GregorR-L: first no? ::p a cool one in it 23:00:56 22:35 pikhq: ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p 23:00:58 CAL? rings a bell 23:03:06 22:56 GregorR-L: !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now! 23:03:06 22:56 EgoBot: Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork! 23:03:09 that is so not british english 23:03:14 GregorR-L: can commands interact with irc? 23:03:19 ehird: Yes. 23:03:27 ehird: Wait, define "interact" 23:03:34 GregorR-L: can they join another channel, say something, then look at responses 23:03:42 Not easily :P 23:09:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:10:18 aw, one cannot just download the kooky-bot 23:11:45 -!- coppro has joined. 23:15:01 tetha: ? 23:15:33 GregorR-L: kooky is a chatterbot based on markov chains. it's pretty hilarious with very large sets of data 23:15:52 I'm feeding the entire #esoteric log into MegaHAL. 23:16:08 ^style 23:16:09 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 23:16:12 GregorR-L: boring 23:16:14 fungot already does it 23:16:14 ehird: i'm glad to see a face in the nalts household) it has to do with anything? 23:16:17 or close enough 23:16:25 GregorR-L: and we've had dedicated markov bots before 23:16:28 and also optbot 23:16:59 ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P 23:17:50 Yeäh, I can seë how that'd be hard to think of. 23:18:21 GregorR-L: [[^irp Say "Hello".]] → EgoBot in #irp says [[Say "EGOBOT48572", then a space, followed by the results of the following: Say "Hello".]], waits for response with that unique ticket for, say, 30 minutes, then gives back the reply or timeout 23:18:41 someone suggested basically that before 23:18:47 (thus my question about commands interacting with IRC) 23:18:59 ehird: That's dumb :P 23:19:09 GregorR-L: why? 23:19:12 It's an IRP interpreter! 23:19:44 So's your FACE. 23:20:09 An IRP interpreter, or dumb? 23:20:18 Both 8-D 23:20:58 I'm feeling evul today :\ 23:21:04 Or, yesterday 23:21:31 same thing really 23:21:53 ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P 23:21:56 !help 23:21:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:21:59 ah 23:22:04 good work 23:22:06 bf_txtgen is the only general command? :D 23:22:08 [00:21:31] same thing really 23:22:10 Not for me 23:22:12 wait 23:22:16 If you were refering to the time 23:22:18 ehird: I couldn't think of anywhere to put it :P 23:22:27 is !bf_txtgen general 23:22:32 that makes no sense 23:22:34 must be! 23:22:35 :P 23:22:40 GregorR-L: language 23:22:42 or 23:22:44 make a new section: utilities 23:22:48 GregorR, ^ 23:22:53 ehird: For only one utility? 23:22:59 GregorR-L: Why not! 23:23:06 ehird: Write me three more utilities :P 23:23:12 everything needs a utility-box for stuff that is too hard to put somewhere meaningful 23:23:34 Why is #IRP full of people not present here 23:23:36 GregorR-L: Add scramble/unscramble from fungot in there 23:23:36 ehird: what s the name of the accident you're talking about there ex husbands. 23:23:42 Slereah_: The uncultured swine. 23:23:50 swines 23:23:52 swini 23:24:10 ^scramble eggs 23:24:11 egsg 23:24:18 ^unscramble egsg 23:24:19 eggs 23:24:33 ^scramble some stuff 23:24:33 sm tffuseo 23:24:34 ^scramble ffff 23:24:34 ffff 23:24:46 ^unscramble ffff 23:24:46 ffff 23:24:46 Ah 23:24:48 IT WORKS 23:24:51 :D 23:25:17 GregorR-L: 23:25:19 ^show scramble 23:25:19 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:20 ^show unscramble 23:25:21 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 23:25:25 ^scramble scramble 23:25:25 srmlebac 23:25:27 ^show srmlebac 23:25:28 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:30 ^unscramble unscramble 23:25:31 uenlsbcmra 23:25:33 ^show uenlsbcmra 23:25:34 !userinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:34 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 23:25:38 GregorR-L: UTILITY 23:25:39 !addinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:40 Interpreter scramble installed. 23:25:41 not userinterp :P 23:25:50 ehird: Such a waste of effort to do it that way :P 23:25:55 add combinator logic on strings, such that CIMLHello World outputs some mess :) 23:25:59 GregorR-L: Make userinterps categorizable 23:26:10 !delinterp scramble 23:26:11 Interpreter scramble deleted. 23:26:45 I'll add the ability to send input to userinterps. 23:26:50 (Those that have some kind of delimiter) 23:27:01 Though I'm not sure how :P 23:27:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 23:31:35 GregorR-L: simply append the delimiter... 23:31:51 oerjan: No, that's not the difficult part. 23:32:07 oerjan: Figuring out how I want users to tell EgoBot that is the hard part. 23:32:24 actually that was what i was answering 23:32:34 simply append the delimiter 23:32:38 ... to what? 23:32:43 that's the solution to everything 23:32:45 to the program 23:32:46 simply append the delimiter 23:33:02 as in, include it 23:33:15 oerjan: !addinterp name language code 23:33:27 oerjan: Where does the delimiter go. Where does it /not/ go. 23:33:32 yes, and code ends with the delimiter 23:33:39 oerjan: Well that just makes no sense. 23:33:48 What is EgoBot written in? 23:33:48 sure it makes sense 23:33:55 FireFly: Various. 23:33:59 !info 23:33:59 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null 23:34:01 Well, the main bot 23:34:08 for bf, for example, that means you just cat together the code and the input 23:34:09 C and shell 23:34:16 Okay 23:34:25 oerjan: I'm talking about input /to/ userinterps. 23:34:31 GregorR-L: is that paypal donation thing serious :P 23:34:40 ehird: If you feel like donating it is ;) 23:34:47 easy 23:34:52 GregorR-L: how about 1 cent 23:35:12 just separate code and input with a null 23:35:25 coppro: What about languages where null are legit code? 23:35:45 GregorR-L: you can't send a null over irc 23:35:46 so it's bunk 23:35:54 ehird: You can send a null over http 23:35:58 true. 23:36:10 those languages suck :P 23:36:12 but, ew, nulls 23:36:30 ehird, coppro: Also, it would suck because it would be nice to use an interpreter as-written, many of which use '!' 23:36:34 (For e.g. BF) 23:36:40 butt 23:36:47 GregorR-L: hm oh right, for adding input to userinterp programs you want to add the programs themselves as nested userinterps 23:36:56 oerjan: Exactly 23:37:18 and when you do _that_, you just put the delimiter at the end of the code 23:37:46 and when running the nested userinterp, you just concatenate the code with the input 23:37:52 GregorR-L: oh btw it would be nice if the bfjoust report file wouldn't be overwritten until the new one is complete 23:37:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:07 I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ? 23:38:32 oerjan: The userinterp is sent as an /argument/ to the real interp, the input to that is sent as ... well, input. The delimiter is not on the userinterp's code, it's on its input 23:38:53 jix_: Bleh bleh bleh everybody's complained about that one, get on the bandwagon :P 23:39:04 GregorR-L: haha didn't know 23:39:17 GregorR-L: nested userinterps need to use a different convention 23:42:03 oerjan: Let me illustrate with an example. I write a BF interpreter in BF. I save it as bf.bf. I run egobfi8 bf.bf. Putting a '!' at the end of bf.bf is totally useless, since the BF code is sent as input to egobfi8 bf.bf. However, what delimiter is necessary is a property of bf.bf. So it's necessary to provide with bf.bf the particular delimiter, but it actually goes as input. 23:42:36 GregorR-L: What are you drying toa dd 23:42:38 *to add 23:42:43 um... i see 23:43:43 ehird: Some way of specifying for userinterps what delimiter they use between code and input. 23:43:57 GregorR-L: What? Why 23:44:03 That makes no sense, I mean what? 23:44:06 ehird: So you can write userinterps in userinterps. 23:44:18 ... and has anyone ever wanted to do this? 23:44:27 Not yet :P 23:44:31 GregorR-L: Just add a delimiter argument to addinterp 23:44:42 ehird: But it can't just be part of !addinterp, since not all userinterps have any such delimiter. 23:45:06 GregorR-L: add a special value 23:45:10 "none" 23:45:11 [00:38:06] I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ? 23:45:25 I didn't notice that. 23:45:25 FireFly: !addinput lang separator code, you mean. 23:45:27 E.g. the separator could be defined for each new interpreter 23:45:30 *addinterp 23:45:35 FireFly: !addinterp name lang separator code, you mean. 23:45:35 then 23:45:42 Uh, I suppose 23:45:42 !addinterp name2 name none blah 23:45:43 Interpreter name does not exist! 23:45:45 !name2 butt 23:45:49 → 23:46:00 lang name 'separator' name 23:46:01 er 23:46:02 lang name 'separator' name2 23:46:03 or w/e 23:46:28 Nom nom nom. 23:47:55 ^scramble bob 23:47:56 bbo 23:48:02 ^scramble ab 23:48:02 ab 23:48:06 lulz 23:48:45 ^scramble abcde 23:48:45 acedb 23:49:04 the algorithm: 23:49:09 write letter, write next letter, move to middle. 23:49:16 reverse: take letter, take end letter, append to result. 23:49:18 ^scramble abbbb 23:49:19 abbbb 23:49:33 ^scramble abbba 23:49:33 ababb 23:49:43 ^unscramble abcdefg 23:49:43 agbfced 23:49:50 ^scramble 0123456789 23:49:50 0246897531 23:50:06 Really, the unscramble one 23:50:08 ^scramble abbib 23:50:08 abbib 23:50:30 I think it was the VG ("quite good") exercise on a test a previous class had 23:50:39 FireFly: Really? 23:50:40 But.. in Java 23:50:44 Yup 23:50:49 I "invented" scramble a year or two ago. 23:50:56 Unscramble just being its decoder. 23:51:04 It's a very elegant method. 23:51:17 Also, it repeats itself ... after length factorial iterations, I think. oerjan? 23:51:20 Or was it more subtle than that 23:51:42 "1,2,3,4,5,6 blir 1,6,2,5,3,4 oberoende på ursprungsordningen" 23:51:52 Ignore the swedish, it should be pretty clear anyways 23:52:00 yeah 23:52:32 I'm not really nervous for my programming test tomorrow :D 23:52:36 some factor of length factorial 23:52:55 there was some sequence in the integer encyclopedia 23:53:37 the numbers fit, although it wasn't immediately obvious why the definition should... 23:53:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:54:03 Well, I just copied the example, with a more elaborate description above it 23:54:54 Uh, ah, nvm 23:56:38 By the way, the highest grade exercise for the same test is: Create a class representing a dice, it's constructor taking the amount of sides as a parameter. Create a method to throw this dice a number of times, returning an int array of it's results." 23:56:52 That's it, and we have 100 minutes to do it 23:58:40 That's... Trivial. 23:58:54 Indeed :P 23:59:17 I'm actually considering doing the exercise we get in both Java and some esolang, if it's as trivial as that 23:59:57 FireFly: And writing the esolang interpreter in Java, of course :P