00:01:55 GregorR: a 00:04:39 oh no, my room stopped burning. now there's ice on the walls. 00:05:59 (not an actual quote btw) 00:06:52 although that would be a subverted trope, i guess by your explanation this is already at undead horse stage 00:08:52 Another thing that basically sums up bash: 00:08:53 < robT> Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant 00:08:54 < bawss> Right click. 00:08:59 (one of the 100 top rated quotes) 00:09:17 Freaking bash.org 00:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:11:51 afk 00:14:01 First my middle clicks don't work sometimes, now my left clicks. 00:14:10 This cheapo mouse has a ~2 year shelf life. 00:14:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:16:25 Maybe when I upgrade stuff, I should get a new mouse. 00:16:35 It's a bit... Old. 00:17:22 I think it's from my first Linux box, which was old 7 years ago. 00:17:52 (when I got it) 00:17:54 I'm pretty much throwing out everything w/ my new box, since I don't really have much attachment to anything. It's just an imac+apple kb+crap mouse 00:19:11 I've got an absurdly old CD burner that I plan to keep, since I'm too cheap to bother upgrading that. 00:20:13 Not even DVD? 00:20:15 For shame ;-) 00:20:25 I have a DVD-ROM drive. 00:20:26 I'm probably going to nab some hw from this iMac for safekeeping... 00:20:38 My CD burner does CD-Rs at 12x and CD-RWs at 4x. 00:20:39 ;) 00:20:42 e.g., there's 2.5gb of ddr2 ram in here. 00:20:48 Could be useful somewhere. 00:20:57 pikhq: Not even a dvd burner? :P 00:21:14 Say, is there a typing test that does *not* involve trying to transcribe something? 00:21:26 * pikhq notes that he is at his slowest when trying to copy text 00:21:35 ehird: Not even a DVD burner. 00:24:09 hmm 00:41:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:30 What idiot thought the new food pyramid was a good idea? 00:45:44 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/camerahouse.jpg this is meant to be photoshopped-looking can someone please explain 00:46:20 Anybody over five can draw the old one. The new one is like "You may eat 0.05 radians of oils" 00:46:34 :D 00:48:20 LMAO 00:48:30 pikhq: is that re: my image or GregorR 00:48:35 i cannot figure out the image 00:48:46 GregorR. 00:48:54 darn 00:48:55 I can't see anything photoshoppish in that image 00:49:19 * pikhq wonders what the fuck the USDA was thinking with "MyPyramid". 00:50:26 Also, they've got the proportions all wrong. You need to eat at least 0.5 radians of caffeine-bearing beverages 00:51:13 pikhq: It's actually a circle, the normally-displayed "pyramid" section is actually like a pie slice of that, the remainder is caffeine. 00:51:24 *Okay*. 00:51:32 That's more sensible. 00:52:25 Apparently, the USDA thinks that pyramid is simpler than the previous design. 00:52:33 Yes, really. 00:52:39 That's because the remainder of their circle is pot. 00:53:06 :-D 00:53:11 Ahah. 00:53:20 That does it. 00:54:30 It's part of a balanced diet. 00:55:13 GregorR: What about moxie? 00:55:21 Is the remainder actually moxie+pot 00:55:24 In one 00:55:28 Mot 00:55:45 That is too perfect to be considered part of the circle. It is above the circle. 01:02:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:03:02 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:03:04 It is in fact the sphere. 01:37:44 -!- oklodok has joined. 01:39:54 -!- oklofok has joined. 01:40:12 -!- jix has joined. 01:42:09 is it O(n!), or worse? <<< it's (n^2)! 01:42:40 oh you mean 01:42:40 mine 01:43:01 i have no idea about verysort, but it's much too fast to be n!. 01:43:10 it's probably polynomial. 01:43:20 not that he's here 01:56:00 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:17:52 verysort? :o 02:20:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:22:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:36:59 -!- jix has joined. 02:43:22 Gracenotes: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316313563.txt 02:43:42 just something i hacked up after a night without sleep. 02:44:17 ah, sleepless nights :D yeah. how does it perform? 02:44:25 well 02:44:32 hmm actually 02:44:44 an answer to you, and a correction to what i said to ais earlier 02:44:54 it is at least exponential 02:45:06 because you explicitly create all the possible orders. 02:45:23 well permutations 02:45:24 hm. bogosort? 02:45:39 not even remotely similar 02:46:01 except that both are slow, bogosort is much closer to bubblesort than this one 02:46:15 well, randomly picking an order vs. generating all of them.. 02:46:30 oh right bogosort, i was thinking bozosort. 02:46:58 bogosort is somewhat similar, except the generate all permutations part isn't the pont 02:46:58 *point 02:47:01 the points is the points 02:47:58 you randomly take two permutations of the list, and make them fight, which means picking a random pair of adjacent elements from both, A wins B if A's pair is in order, and B's is not 02:48:39 this part is fairly fast, and it's probably polynomial on n!, which lead me astray earlier 02:49:07 hm. Although... another alternative might be to start with a string for each letter, then continue building the permutation only if it's in order, until you reach something the length of the string 02:49:22 huh. this might require a bit of book-keeping. 02:49:39 err *led 02:49:48 string for each letter? 02:49:59 are we sorting lists of letters? 02:50:13 or what do you mean 02:50:31 e.g. building up the sorted sequence 02:50:38 this is an entirely different idea. sort of. 02:51:10 well. that's just depth-first search :P 02:51:38 if you have [2, 1, 3], start with [1], [2], and [3]. All sorted strings of length 2, from those: [1, 3], [1, 2] and [2, 3] 02:51:54 and from those, only [1, 2, 3] survives 02:52:06 O(n^2) 02:52:13 haha 02:52:13 no 02:52:13 hm. the interesting thing is... there is a lot of shared work here. 02:52:23 but yeah, I see that's not what you're doing 02:52:25 it's factorial 02:52:58 or at least not O(n^2) 02:53:05 wait, it is actually O(n^n). unless you share work of course. 02:53:28 but it's not quite that amount, because many branches are eliminated early 02:53:56 but, yes. so how many iterations did your algorithm take for various input sizes? 02:54:26 i haven't checked. 02:54:40 incrediblysort never sorts a list of size 4 02:55:35 nevar :o 02:56:26 well theta (minimum possible) is n!, but the probability of ever getting it sorted is pretty much 9 02:56:28 *0 02:57:06 I'm still fond of quantum bogosort. 02:57:33 unfortunately quantum bogosort would probably have the same time as regular bogosort 02:57:41 No. 02:57:45 hardehar 02:57:50 Allow me to describe the algorithm. 02:58:01 go ahead 02:58:03 do. 02:58:09 no 02:58:10 Randomise the list (thereby creating a universe for every permutation of the list). 02:58:19 If the list is not sorted, destroy the universe. 02:58:32 explain, in detail, your process for universe selection. 02:58:48 Gracenotes: you already have a quantum computer 02:58:50 ... 02:58:52 We don't. Multiple worlds theory. 02:58:58 :D 03:00:08 but such a check requires observation, and if it turns out the list is not sorted, you should probably give up 03:00:25 wut 03:00:40 destroying the universe won't make the one universe where the list *is* sorted any more accessible 03:01:01 Gracenotes: if you don't understand the theorem, just let it go, it's not worth thinking about anyway. 03:01:24 you're completely misunderstanding the idea (read: joke) 03:01:27 Gracenotes: you already have a quantum computer 03:01:44 okay, and even so, you can't select the particular universe where the list is sorted >:( 03:01:53 Gracenotes, all such universes exist simultaneously. 03:02:01 of course I get it's a joke, but I don't think it's that funny... 03:02:13 By destroying the universes that don't have a sorted list, you ensure the existing universes have a sorted list. 03:02:58 although, the existing universes have a sorted list whether or not you destroy the other ones :) 03:03:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:03:05 Or, in other words: o <-- the joke v-- You 03:03:24 jesus Gracenotes 03:03:32 that's the whole deal with quantum computing 03:03:41 I get it. It's not that funny. 03:03:48 excuse me for killing it. I feel no remorse... 03:03:55 bsmntbombdood: rubbish 03:03:56 * pikhq stabs Gracenotes 03:04:04 Feel remorse! In the form of pain! 03:04:13 oerjan! 03:04:22 ( ´_ゝ`) 03:04:25 oklofok! 03:04:39 oerjan: what? 03:04:44 ( ゚ -゚) . 03:04:50 * pikhq wishes urxvt would, y'know, *switch fonts* for non-ASCII characters 03:04:53 you called? 03:05:12 my client can't render those characters 03:05:21 oerjan: you wish! 03:05:35 oklofok: so does your face! 03:05:38 My client is capable of rendering those characters. 03:05:42 However, it refuses to. 03:05:57 oerjan: well your face does your mum 03:06:26 or at least that's what *i* wish 03:06:54 are they characters? 03:07:20 that glacolitic spidery ha is quite a character 03:07:41 I mean, I did implement a quantum simulator after all... 03:07:54 blah blah blah etc. 03:08:24 -!- comex has quit ("Disconnecting from stoned server."). 03:08:31 ^ul ((blah )S:^):^ 03:08:32 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...too much output! 03:08:55 oerjan: that's one blah too many 03:09:14 oh noes. I think my feet are turning into hobbit feet! *looks at hair* 03:09:31 of course, I am 6 feet tall, so I don't think it's that likely 03:09:38 oklofok: rubbish, they form a perfect rectangle 03:10:02 13*5 03:10:11 admittedly the 13 might be bad luck 03:10:20 Gracenotes: what's that in human units? 03:10:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:10:42 oerjan: i meant the infinite amount of blahäs. 03:10:43 I use "foot" as a human unit, personally 03:10:44 *' 03:11:11 Gracenotes: no i think you just used it was relevant to the joke, because feet aren't in use anymore 03:11:14 oklofok: ic. well then it is also aleph-zero blahs too many 03:11:56 i should really move to hex, so i could say the same for base 10 03:12:08 oklofok: I am personally a fan of metric adoption. but I find most people on the internet don't use it on English IRC networks 03:12:09 oklofok: feet aren't in use anymore? this explains the obesity epidemic 03:12:37 *most*. Not all, of course! 03:12:46 at least it's better than "stone" as a unit of weight 03:12:49 oklofok: Approximately 3 metres. 03:13:02 you mean 2? 03:13:08 a bit under 2. 03:13:11 Yes. 03:13:12 2. 03:13:25 3 is a bit... Tall. 03:13:26 3 +- 1.5 03:13:55 Gracenotes: i'm finnish, therefore it's all i know :) 03:14:15 oklofok: Better than being American. 03:14:17 mm. metric still is a pretty arbitrary system 03:14:21 Most Americans only know American units. 03:14:29 Which is... Lame. 03:14:34 but at least it's a bit more consistent 03:14:36 well i do *know* how much a foot is. 03:14:48 30.48 or something 03:14:50 Gracenotes: Metric is more sensible only in that it's consistent. 03:15:02 for people who grow up in societies that use base 10 number systems 03:15:08 yes it is consistent :) 03:15:08 i had other reasons for asking. 03:15:15 Which is a vast improvement over imperial units. 03:15:35 I will clandestinely teach my children to use the metric system! mwahaha 03:15:40 oh wait, I'm gay. never mind. 03:15:48 base 10 is not really inherent to SI 03:16:01 Oh, you're gay? 03:16:12 yes 03:16:13 * pikhq keeps in mind not to be on IRC when at dad's house 03:16:24 :P 03:16:25 wha >_> 03:16:31 My dad is about as anti-homosexual as they come. 03:16:47 pikhq: Gracenotes is not the only gay on this channel, in case you haven't noticed 03:16:57 it's okay. I won't hack your computer and email him links to lemonparty 03:16:59 oklofok: I actually didn't. 03:17:15 Largely because I don't give a flying fuck. 03:17:18 i fap to lemonparty 03:17:52 bsmntbombdood: *That*, however, is disturbing. 03:18:04 :D 03:18:05 pikhq: right, it's just some are a bit hard not to notice (psygnisfive), but i guess you don't read absolutely everything that happens here. 03:18:27 shock sites are not for fapping to 03:18:42 this is surely a rule of the internet 03:18:45 (maybe hard to remember, in case you don't care) 03:18:48 And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) 03:18:58 Gracenotes: rule 34 overrules that rule, surely 03:19:16 depends on shock sites, many are just clips from fetish porn, and not even the interesting parts. 03:19:20 oerjan: Rule 34 states that there is porn of it, it does *not* state that the porn actually has an audience. 03:19:32 hm true 03:20:01 Of course, most of the porn without an audience is not for a shock site... 03:20:09 It's merely bad porn. 03:20:18 pikhq: And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) <<< i tend to consider every detail about irc people important, including what holes they prefer. 03:20:20 and rules one and two demonstrate that you are all posers 03:20:50 oklofok: That's quite disturbing. 03:21:04 bsmntbombdood: wait, what are those? 03:21:14 bsmntbombdood: 4chan is the asshole of the Internet. ;) 03:21:16 ...exactly 03:44:24 CONVERSATION FATALITY 03:46:12 well i left. 03:47:48 LATTIFY A CONSERVATION 03:48:34 RATIFY A CONVERSATION 03:49:26 NATIONAL IFFY RAT CONVICT 03:54:17 well i came. 03:55:13 Gracenotes: i thought we were finished with the sex talk for a while 03:57:02 KINKY. 03:59:06 YOUR MAJUSCULE PHYSIQUE TURNS ME ON 04:01:44 ELECTRONS ARE BETTER THOUGH. 04:02:26 OH KEEP WRITING LIKE THAT 04:03:30 we always talk about sex 04:05:21 And Lisp. 04:06:16 (the other sex) 04:06:32 you mean Haskell 04:06:49 * pikhq gasps 04:06:53 You're a Haskelsexual! 04:07:15 Don't you know that God Hates Haskells? 04:08:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:42 We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it! 04:08:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:08:46 We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it! 04:08:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:54 .. and so on... 04:09:11 :D 04:09:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:09:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:14:41 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:15:24 -!- coppro has joined. 04:29:31 ääliö 04:29:49 itse olet! 04:30:03 damn straight 04:30:34 nää, ä liöö y nähööltään viellysnäämmin 04:31:12 wtf does that mean 04:31:40 oerjan: you do a better fake finnish than psygnisfive :P 04:31:40 hm ääliö actually is a word 04:31:58 yeah 04:32:19 Na... Nananana Katamari Damashii... 04:32:37 i don't see ä an ö right, so had to take a guess which of those weird things means which 04:32:39 ööliä means beer 04:32:57 nope, the other one :D 04:33:33 oklofok: in what language? 04:33:35 so clearly if you have so much ööliä that you can't read properly, you get ääliö 04:33:41 bsmntbombdood_: finnish 04:34:42 someone told me it means "moron" 04:35:24 you mean they actually told you the truth? what a stupid use of a foreign expletitive 04:35:42 bsmntbombdood_: no no when you swap the umlauted chars. 04:35:42 someone was right 04:36:07 ...? 04:36:17 oklofok: erm you guessed wrong, incidentally 04:36:30 oerjan: oh, lol :P 04:36:43 ö 04:36:46 no i didn't 04:36:48 ääliö 04:37:17 oh i misunderstood you 04:37:24 i'm confused 04:37:28 :P 04:37:40 how many languages do you guys know anyway? 04:37:41 WHAT'S GOING ON IN HERE 04:37:55 bsmntbombdood_: what an ääliö, have you had too much ööliä? 04:37:55 the same four, but probably not as well as i used to :< 04:38:25 some lojban too ofc, and starting latin next fall 04:39:36 what are the other two? 04:39:46 well i know some swedish and german 04:40:03 mostly passively... 04:40:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:41:03 hi joe 04:44:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:44:56 by joe 04:45:25 ... 04:46:51 ääliö sanoo mitä? 04:52:58 some guy was gonna come in here and talk finnish to you 04:53:51 scary. 05:21:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:32:43 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 05:34:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:38:26 -!- coppro has joined. 06:28:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:40:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:46:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:47:54 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:57:58 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:59:55 -!- oklofok has joined. 07:06:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:26:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:26:34 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:37:44 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:22:33 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:32:45 -!- Dewi has quit ("bbl"). 08:33:26 -!- tombom has joined. 08:34:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 08:34:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:37:03 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:54:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:21:25 -!- dbc has joined. 10:38:31 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 10:49:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:54:03 (Time for some hardware upgrades.) 10:56:24 -!- fizzie has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 11:08:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:27:22 -!- fizzie has joined. 12:15:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:29:50 -!- augur[sleep] has changed nick to augur. 12:46:46 -!- jix has joined. 13:16:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:01:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:04:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:07:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:07:26 doh 14:07:30 Ais523 isn't there 14:07:56 anyway, hi 14:23:43 also ACK'd Oerjan's changes to dead64, just need to upload them 14:24:39 as in, to the full version 14:44:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:06:55 asiekierka, "dead64"? 15:08:09 asiekierka, tested Deewiant's dobela (sp?) interpreter yet 15:17:12 bbl 15:21:28 -!- jix has joined. 15:39:23 "dead64" or DEADFISH 64 is my interpreter of Deadfish made in C64 Basic 15:39:38 The "light" version is on the esolang wiki 15:39:49 and in external links is the version with a subset of Deadfish~ 15:40:01 added some more stuff to it by now and fixed it more than the esolang wiki version 15:40:05 just need to upload it 15:40:43 v2 has the behavior mostly fixed (thanks to Oerjan) and it's more optimized and smaller than v1 15:40:54 v3 has new stuff, too 15:47:36 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 15:47:43 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur. 15:48:04 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 15:55:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 15:56:31 v3 has some statistics, help and another way to end a program (interactively) 15:56:36 I may write a non-interactive version though 15:57:07 which would probably support the stuffs that an interactive version can't 15:57:15 and may be the first interpreter of Deadfish~ 16:25:31 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 16:32:29 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:32:35 did saving but erased all that work 16:33:29 ok, fixed an annoying bug in dead64 16:33:33 now working back on saving 16:33:51 because it worked by now, loading will probably be worse though :( 16:33:57 SYN 16:34:17 what does SYN mean? 16:34:21 Save You Noob? 16:34:25 or Save, You Noob 16:34:31 Neither. 16:34:39 so what does it mean 16:34:39 The appropriate response is ACK. 16:34:44 ...oh 16:34:48 but what does SYN mean! 16:34:49 Read some RFCs, man! 16:34:53 too busy 16:35:05 At least read the TCP RFC. 16:35:49 pikhq: The appropriate response is SYN/ACK :P 16:36:03 pikhq: Then comes ACK 16:36:03 GregorR: Oh. You're right. 16:36:04 XD 16:36:09 Been a while. 16:36:29 Ack! 16:36:40 ACK. 16:36:43 (GAWD I'M SO F***ING FUNNY) 16:36:44 :P 16:44:58 oh god, DEADFISH 64 is already a riding mess on wheels 16:45:00 :/ 16:45:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:50:07 -!- coppro has joined. 16:58:25 asiekierka, I'm going to test that dobela thingy 16:58:33 what was the spelling of it now again 16:58:53 DOBBELA? 16:58:54 DOBELA? 16:59:49 Section Headers: 16:59:49 [Nr] Name Type Addr Off Size ES Flags Lk Inf Al 16:59:49 [ 0] NULL 0000000000000000 00000000 00000000 0 0 0 0 16:59:49 [ 1] SNST STRTAB 0000000000000000 00000138 0000000e 0 0 0 1 16:59:49 [ 2] dobelx64 PROGBITS 0000000000000146 00000146 000010f7 0 WAX 0 0 8 16:59:52 Deewiant, that's unusual 17:00:06 usually the seconds are like .text .data .rodata or whatever 17:00:35 I know what GCC calls them; I have no obligation to call them that. 17:00:45 Deewiant, I thought that was standard 17:00:59 It is, fairly, but the names are completely irrelevant. 17:01:03 also what do the different sections contain there 17:01:21 AnMaster: Do (like in don't) - Bee - Lah 17:01:29 the "e" in "be" is long 17:01:39 also, I finished loading/saving in Deadfish 64 17:01:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:44 so it supports the non-interactive mode 17:01:46 whew 17:02:01 Deewiant, my system complains about writable stack in it 17:02:07 I'm sure it would 17:02:13 It contains self-modifying code. 17:21:20 -!- clog has joined. 17:21:20 -!- clog has joined. 17:22:07 Augh, I can't implement {} with my design 17:22:11 Oh well 17:22:18 Time for a redesign 17:23:06 Deewiant, how do you represent the playfield? 17:23:13 Array. 17:23:21 Deewiant, is it size limited?? 17:23:34 Yes, it's allocated before any execution. 17:23:54 DOBELA programs can't grow, so that's fine. 17:24:06 Deewiant, they can't? Huh. That's very odd 17:24:24 Only dots can travel outside the initial bounds, and dots without commands can't do anything. 17:24:40 Deewiant, so you discard them then? 17:24:44 Yep. 17:25:17 Deewiant, no wraparound? 17:25:19 :/ 17:25:28 It's not Befunge. :-P 17:25:54 C doesn't wraparound at every } either. 17:26:05 It should 17:26:07 AnMaster: If I ever do a redesign it won't be in C64 BASIC 17:26:15 It could. 17:26:30 It'd not be very useful but it could. 17:27:25 ehird, good idea 17:27:34 would mean you needed goto a lot 17:27:36 :D 17:27:51 No, you just need to write "return" explicitly. 17:28:03 if (blah) { code here; goto afterif; } afterif: morecode; ... 17:28:12 Oh right, ifs. 17:28:30 For some reason I was thinking of only functions and loops. 17:28:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:29:05 Deewiant, { ... } would be same as the legacy-C while(true) { ... } 17:29:07 For those, the thing to do is "if (blah) { code here; something that makes blah false }" 17:29:15 Yes, it would. 17:29:28 hmm 17:29:33 returning from a function jumps to its } 17:29:36 theoretically 17:29:40 therefore, return; doesn't help 17:29:43 it just restarts the function 17:29:49 ... tail recursion! 17:30:05 right 17:30:06 I don't see return working like that 17:30:15 you would need to longjump out of every function 17:30:21 longjmp()* 17:30:30 I suppose you can, although you need to explain where the return value goes 17:30:38 Deewiant: Well, falling off the end of a function into } does the same as what return; does 17:30:47 Deewiant, in a global variable? 17:30:48 return; yes, but return 0; not. 17:30:49 and since {} wrapping is our main paradigm, return jumping to } instead of vise-versa is the best choice 17:30:57 also, } is just return garbage; :-P 17:31:06 That's implementation-dependant. 17:31:14 } could be abort(); 17:31:21 err. 17:31:29 void foo() { printf("hi\n"); } 17:31:36 that doesn't abort() 17:31:43 int foo() { printf("hi\n"); } 17:31:44 That could. 17:31:49 ye 17:31:49 s 17:32:18 Finally done with v4 *wheeeew* 17:33:05 omg, V1 was 426 bytes, V2 was 390 bytes, V3 was 1071 bytes and V4 is 2207 bytes 17:33:12 GOD WHAT HAS THIS WORLD GONE TO!? TT__TT 17:33:22 What language? 17:33:40 C64 BASIC 17:33:43 heh 17:33:53 If I ever make V5, it will either be in Assembler or a minor update 17:34:04 but i did () 17:34:05 asiekierka, rewrite it in C64 asm yeah 17:34:16 AnMaster: Later. *sigh* I'm already tired working on this mess 17:34:21 Just... don't look at the source. 17:34:50 (There are programs to do so, but... just don't. It has been... "sqrt(hacked)".) 17:34:58 it's basic, why would I look at the source... 17:35:12 I'm just telling you to not because it has GOTOs on top of other GOTOs 17:35:21 my brain hurts. x_x 17:37:44 Basically. V2 = the C64 BASIC source in the Deadfish article + some other miscellany code 17:37:48 basically, * 17:44:19 upped V4 (along with source code) 17:44:43 asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt (The problem is it was the same piece of code being hacked over and over) 17:45:24 I will make a "lite" version though, which just cuts out the source of the extra features 17:45:34 wait, no, that'd be useless 17:46:55 And i DO know it's possible to clean it up a bit 17:47:00 i'm just too lazy to do so 17:48:37 asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt is empty. 17:49:19 ehird: That's just how easy it is to implement Deadfish. 17:50:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:52:28 ...huhwhat? 17:52:47 ...hmm 17:52:49 let me try again 17:52:51 oh, hi oerjan 17:52:52 oerjan, IWC today was "groan, oh my" 17:52:57 thanks for fixing my C64 implementation 17:53:03 you're welcome :) 17:53:26 i fixed it even more 17:53:30 and went as far as to add loading/saving 17:53:34 to the downloadable version 17:53:44 i fixed the boundary checks but i didn't make the prompting entirely compatible 17:53:56 the... prompting? 17:54:04 many other interpreters don't follow that slavishly 17:54:10 oerjan: Also, AFAIK, you forgot to fix i, i, s, s, s 17:54:12 the >> before each command 17:54:14 i fixed it 17:54:20 asiekierka: huh? 17:54:20 oerjan: You can't fix it easily 17:54:32 oerjan: 16 squared to 256 17:54:37 with your checks it would come as 0 17:54:44 it _shall_ be 0 17:54:47 that's the point 17:55:11 h...huh? 17:55:15 every time it hits 256 regardless of reason, from above or below, it's reset 17:55:48 btw the C interpreter is the standard 17:56:07 "It's more likely because those that write theorem provers want to be able to verify parts of the theorem provers implementation themselves within in a theorem prover." 17:56:18 $ xzibit 17:56:21 ;; Xzibit theorem prover 17:56:22 > 17:56:39 I think I did read somewhere that "the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared" 17:56:54 asiekierka: that's valid, sort of 17:56:59 it just means you can go over 255 with squaring 17:57:00 asiekierka: well that means that you cannot escape the range without squaring 17:57:06 so i square 17:57:09 from 16 to 256 17:57:11 :P 17:57:22 but once you've square _beyond_ 256 things go haywire 17:57:27 *squared 17:57:35 asiekierka: you need to be more clever to escape 17:57:44 iissis does it 17:58:00 and then what 17:58:04 (and is probably the minimal way to escape 17:58:06 sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 17:58:08 er 17:58:12 replace s's with d's 17:58:14 in my part 17:58:28 (as in, escaping _through_ the minimal value) 17:58:51 yeah, something like that, and when you decrement to 256 it becomes instantly 0 17:58:59 Citing the author of Deadfish from the Deadfish~ article 17:59:00 Like its predecessor, the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared! 17:59:45 "Predecessor" refers to Deadfish original 17:59:47 asiekierka: it should be noted that many [weasel word] suspect the author did not originally know how to make it do what he want 18:00:23 Do you refer to the C implementation or to the idea 18:00:26 so in essence all the rest of us took the joke of running with translating a broken program faithfully 18:00:32 the C implementation 18:01:01 except i think the Ruby and ZiziQue interpreters don't, and maybe some of the ones i cannot read 18:01:06 I think I will make V5 in BASIC which can run in both "compatibility mode" and "rightful" mode 18:01:16 (i don't know ruby enough to try to correct it) 18:01:18 and the C64 one doesn't 18:01:44 While I want to have a correct implementation, too 18:01:45 well it would be much closer with my changes from yesterday 18:01:59 a "correct" as in "author's correct" 18:02:09 not "implementation-correct" 18:02:46 Also, where the hell can I find out anything about ZiZiQue 18:04:00 so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it? 18:04:14 BFsCheme 18:04:25 BF2C-heme 18:04:35 BFtoC-heme 18:04:43 that's a rather lame pun 18:04:45 i don't know about ZiziQue 18:04:50 maybe google 18:06:04 what the hell is ZiziQue? 18:06:32 AnMaster: a language referenced among the Deadfish examples on the wiki 18:06:55 that is the only reference I can find to it when I google 18:07:00 AnMaster: oh it's that number again 18:07:05 let's search who added the ZiZiQue interpretation 18:07:09 (IWC *96) 18:07:27 oerjan, yes. But the wrong theme! 18:07:34 AnMaster: has happened before 18:07:42 it was in space once 18:07:49 it was? hm ok 18:08:05 zizique was a lang that used to be on the wiki 18:08:12 i guess it was deleted for not really being very esoteric 18:08:14 I liked it though 18:08:18 but this time it was rather forewarned 18:08:19 oh 18:08:22 ehird, what do you remember about it 18:08:23 aha 18:08:30 AnMaster: nothing much 18:08:41 the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel 18:08:48 Zzo38 added ZiZiQue 18:08:57 oh 18:08:57 hm 18:08:58 maybe not that one 18:09:12 ah 18:09:13 no 18:09:16 zzo msut have learned it 18:09:19 it is the language I was thinking of 18:09:20 oh 18:09:21 the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel <<< you're just messing with us, right? 18:09:25 oerjan: no 18:09:47 i distinctly recall it 18:10:14 ehird, and no source outside the wiki? 18:10:15 that's sad 18:10:26 AnMaster: the page used to exist 18:10:29 so an admin can recover it 18:10:35 it was designed for making text adventures 18:10:35 iirc 18:10:37 interactive fiction 18:10:43 there WAS a site 18:10:46 must be defunct now 18:10:55 do you have the link 18:10:58 do you have the link 18:11:01 no 18:11:01 no 18:11:07 oh so it was not zzo38's own language? 18:11:11 correct 18:11:51 What's all this then? 18:12:03 GregorR: not much 18:12:30 * oerjan fixes the C64 Deadfish for proper squaring behavior 18:12:47 Fix V4 too, then :DDD 18:12:55 V4? 18:13:02 the big interpreter 18:13:06 nah 18:13:25 -!- tombom has joined. 18:13:36 MUST ... FIND ... ZIZIQUE :P 18:13:45 GregorR: Step 1. Become wiki admin 18:13:49 asiekierka, make it V6, would accelerate faster. 18:13:54 I am become wiki admin, destroyer of worlds. 18:13:59 AnMaster: V5 is planned to be in Assembler 18:14:01 AnMaster: no no no, pull a slackware, skip to V7 18:14:05 this minor fix will be... V4a 18:14:37 ehird, odd number of cylinders aren't common afaik hm. 18:14:42 ehird: I find it weird that normal users can't read old pages at all >_> 18:14:52 GregorR: it's for reasons of national security 18:14:59 also, because they're usually spam etc 18:15:11 Huh, Factor's new C++ VM (well, Slava just added some C++ features to the C) isn't half bad. Nicest C++ code I've eve seen. 18:15:38 ehird, that won't last for long 18:15:43 a year at most 18:15:45 probably less 18:15:45 AnMaster: what? 18:15:49 before it is all messy C++ 18:15:53 err, no 18:16:00 he's pretty much finished the C++ transformation 18:16:07 and he isn't using any features that cause a run-time penalty 18:16:17 so it's basically fine 18:16:28 hm zizique was _not_ linked when zzo38 first included it in deadfish 18:16:38 ehird, sure, you start with good intentions, and it might be nice and such even... But soon some messy C++ feature will slither in... 18:16:49 AnMaster: this only applies if the programmer is a retard. 18:16:57 it happened in every C project going C++ "but only with the non-messy bits" that I have seen 18:17:00 by the same logic, Lisp is a bad language to use because the programmer will get tricksy. 18:17:12 Fact is, if they get tricksy, they're a bad programmer. 18:17:48 This is why I suggest using Lightweight C++. 18:17:49 ehird, you misunderstood me I think. 18:17:55 AnMaster: no, I didn't 18:17:58 It *is* C++ without the really screwy features. ;) 18:18:30 pikhq: it's also obscure, probably not maintained to well, and you could just use the parts of C++ it has in C++ and ignore the rest 18:18:45 http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png 18:18:49 I'm saying that "Lightweight C++" is possible. Just that on any larger open source project that will sooner or later turn into messy C++. A few years at most before the mess start showing up. 18:18:49 ehird: It has somewhat different semantics. 18:18:50 ViRtUaLLity? 18:18:53 srsly. 18:19:02 AnMaster: lightweight c++ is a separate project. 18:19:10 Since it's mostly implemented as a preprocessor. 18:19:12 and you're talking absolute bullshit 18:19:16 (very complex one, but still) 18:19:17 you can only get bad code if you use bad features 18:19:22 ehird, oh thought it meant just C++ with less features. It was not easy to see that. 18:19:24 you only use bad features if you're a bad programmer 18:19:38 but sure if the implementation of C++ that you use lacks the bad stuff you can prevent it 18:19:39 wait what, _i_ made ZiziQue a link? 18:19:40 There are no bad features, only bad programmers. 18:19:42 there is not some inherent property of s/gcc/g++/ that causes the code to start to decay into suckiness 18:19:43 * oerjan is confused 18:19:49 saying so is simply stupid 18:19:52 So it has slightly screwy name mangling. 18:20:25 ehird, http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png <-- ugh. GCC specfic :P 18:20:55 GregorR: What if I make a feature to instantly delete the BIOS and it only can be used in a WHILE loop? 18:20:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_AMD_5x86.jpg ← lol@printing designed for windows 95 on an actual cpu 18:21:27 fixed non-cruft link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/KL_AMD_5x86.jpg 18:21:30 ;P 18:21:30 asiekierka: Somebody out there NEEDS that feature maaaaaaaaaaaaaan :P 18:21:45 GregorR: Oh, and it can't be used by virus authors. Or hackers. 18:21:53 AnMaster: What about that is GCC-specific? 18:22:02 asiekierka: Those are bad programmers :P 18:22:04 pikhq, __attribute__ 18:22:06 duh 18:22:09 And to use it you need to run it on your own PC. 18:22:18 Oh, sure enough. 18:22:20 Didn't see that. 18:22:23 pikhq, it is using it to put some functions in link once sections 18:22:32 Is it still a GOOD feature 18:22:57 Oh. *God*. 18:23:03 pikhq, what? 18:23:05 That is such an ugly hack. 18:23:09 well yes 18:23:17 Lightweight C++: C++ without the bad parts and with bad parts 18:23:17 Using the __section__ attribute... 18:23:20 Sounds *awesome*. 18:23:23 pikhq, worse than dynamic scope return thing in bash? 18:23:24 ;P 18:23:29 No. 18:23:32 meh 18:23:38 ehird: That's the hackishness of the generated code. 18:23:48 so, any good naming suggestions for that project. I didn't like asiekierka's suggestion 18:23:55 suggestions* 18:24:07 It basically wants to be a GCC frontend, but does C code instead of RTL. 18:24:12 so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it? 18:24:19 (in case you missed it) 18:24:29 SCFBTC maybe 18:24:33 AnMaster: thiscodeisboundtobehorriblescheme 18:24:34 or SBF2C 18:24:48 Sc-BF2C 18:24:52 ehird, rejected :P 18:24:54 Not PFUCK. 18:24:59 perfect 18:25:02 AnMaster: call it "Not PFUCK." 18:25:05 with the . 18:25:08 um 18:25:11 :D\ 18:25:11 maybe 18:25:13 ~/src/Not PFUCK..scm 18:25:14 rationale! 18:25:16 :P 18:25:26 And it is, in fact, not PFUCK. 18:25:28 PFUCK is pikhq's brainfuck→c compiler written in PEBBLE 18:25:29 Accurate name. 18:25:36 pikhq didn't want you to call it PFUCK 18:25:36 ah nice 18:25:37 hm 18:25:47 So you should call it "Not PFUCK.". Verbatim. :-P 18:25:47 Did anyone make a BF-to-C compiler in BF 18:25:47 even better: SFUCK 18:25:54 SUCKFUCK 18:25:55 that is a pun on S-expressions even 18:25:56 ... 18:26:03 Scheme's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay? 18:26:04 if you move the - 18:26:04 Hey, it's not my fault you're dirty. 18:26:10 asiekierka: Yes. 18:26:22 pikhq, S-expressions (but move - two forward) and then SFUCK 18:26:25 PFUCK: PEBBLE Fucking Up Crappy Kode. 18:26:26 it is perfect 18:26:27 what about Deadfish-to-BF in BF 18:26:45 I wrote mine in PEBBLE instead, just because I was lazy.... 18:26:55 (PEBBLE, of course, compiles to Brainfuck) 18:26:58 so no one is going to say that pun was brilliant? 18:26:59 :( 18:27:15 it isn't a pun 18:27:30 ehird, post-pun then I guess. 18:28:01 i wish it was the 90s. and we had Pentiums. With MMX and 3DNow!. 18:28:08 um 18:28:24 hmm 18:28:28 apart from the technicality that pentium never had 3dnow, why do you want that 18:28:28 pentiums never had 3DNow! 18:28:30 how disappointing 18:28:40 AnMaster: because everything was a lot simpler 18:28:50 I have a Pentium 100mhz 18:28:54 if you said "watercooling" to a computer user they'd think you meant filling the computer with tap water :-) 18:28:57 i doubt it has MMX 18:28:59 AMD had 3DNow! 18:29:07 pikhq, err 18:29:08 I love !s in names. 18:29:10 that should be: 18:29:15 3D-EBN-Now! 18:29:15 AMD had 3DNow!! 18:29:17 Protip: They're pronounced as the click. 18:29:26 because you are exclaiming it 18:29:27 In fact, AMD still *has* 3DNow; Intel never did. Whee. 18:29:29 So 3DNow! is 3DNow 18:29:43 AMD had 3DNow!! 18:29:43 Comments about the impossibility of pronouncing that will be gleefully ignored. 18:29:47 3DNow Enhanced! 18:29:50 hm 18:29:52 I remember that 18:29:56 HEY GUYS! 18:29:56 or was it Extended? 18:29:57 Wanna hear a joke? 18:30:03 Intel Itanium. 18:30:03 WTFBBQ, ZiziQue isn't even in the DB dump 18:30:03 I can pronounce it! 18:30:04 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm 18:30:05 there 18:30:12 ↑↑lol at that 18:30:21 GregorR: Someone didn't really want ZiziQue 18:30:36 ehird, actually I64 is a rather interesting architecture. 18:30:42 *IA64 18:30:42 VLIW is cool 18:30:45 ehird, ah yes 18:31:00 the real joke is of course that "Itanium" is hard to remember how to spell 18:31:01 'taws ahead of its (and relevant compilers') time 18:31:09 so is Nehlam 18:31:11 or whatever it was 18:31:16 and it may have some good ideas, but all I've heard points to "slow, inefficient, not powerful enough, and ditching IA32 was stupid" 18:31:17 Nehalem. 18:31:20 which make perfect sense :P 18:31:24 and Nehalem is easy to spell 18:31:26 And Itanium is Titanium minus 'T' 18:31:29 6502 is the best architecture IN TEH WORLDZ!!!111ONE 18:31:31 easier if you're a native I guess 18:31:35 asiekierka: 4004 bitch 18:31:43 ehird: OISC! 18:31:50 The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989. 18:31:56 Intel did RISC chips? :-D 18:31:57 ehird: Well, the problem is that it had the potential to be ultrafast, but not with anything real compilers could make. 18:32:03 GregorR: Yar :P 18:32:08 ehird: Intel did ARM for a while :P 18:32:12 Yeah, I knew that 18:32:15 But this was custom 18:32:31 Damn, I really want to find ZiziQue now X-P 18:32:47 GregorR: I know where ZiziQue is... 18:32:47 DID YOU KNOW: 18:32:56 ...It is in... 18:32:56 The Pentium name is used for a current-generation processor even today. 18:32:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Dual-Core 18:33:04 since 2006 18:33:09 Yeah, I know. 18:33:11 Which is weird. 18:33:11 ...Er... 18:33:15 ...There is no ZiziQue. 18:33:18 GregorR: Well, Pentium's never meant much. 18:33:34 The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989. 18:33:35 Intel did RISC chips? :-D 18:33:37 Apart from "It's from Intel and you can put it in a desktop and it's based on IA32." 18:33:44 strange, I read about this just a few days ago 18:33:47 and went "huh" too 18:33:57 RISC: i860 · i960 · StrongARM · IXP1200 · XScale 18:33:58 sez wp 18:34:14 yes 18:34:20 xscale... hm sounds familar 18:34:21 none of which they still make 18:34:25 last one was sold in 2006 18:34:29 (xscale) 18:34:32 The XScale, a microprocessor core, is Marvell's (formerly Intel's) implementation of the fifth generation of the ARM architecture, and consists of several distinct families: IXP, IXC, IOP, PXA and CE (see more below). Intel sold the PXA family to Marvell Technology Group in June 2006[1]. 18:34:45 heh 18:34:50 Marvell, sounds like a network card? 18:34:54 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IXP1200 I assume this isn't still made 18:35:03 I seriously don't understand why Intel sold ARM. 18:35:04 Marvell (NASDAQ: MRVL) is an American producer of storage, communications and consumer semiconductor products. Their products can be found in a range of applications: 18:35:05 Consumer: Technologies include Wireless LAN, Voice over IP (VoIP), system controllers, power management, storage products and embedded CPUs. 18:35:07 yup, sounds like a network card company 18:35:08 Enterprise: Marvell produces silicon devices for network switching, routers and wireless networking. Marvell was the first to develop merchant Gigabit Ethernet switching products. 18:35:11 Storage: Marvell designed the first Gigabit all-CMOS read channel, the first Gigabit-capable system-on-a-chip and the first Serial ATA interface. These products are found in both disk drive and network-attached storage systems. 18:35:14 and I think I even had one from Marvell back then 18:35:15 ARM isn't Intel's, GregorR 18:35:23 It was Acorn's. 18:35:24 ehird: It effectively was for quite a while. 18:35:28 Well, true./ 18:35:34 The StrongARM family are faster versions of the existing ARM processors with a somewhat different instruction set. Clocked at 206MHz they can perform up to 235 MIPS (1.14 MIPS/MHz). They have limited software compatibility with the earlier ARM families due to their separate caches for data and instructions, which causes self-modifying code to fail. 18:35:37 Harvard architechture :-D 18:35:43 *architecture 18:35:47 Hahvahd 18:35:55 Why didn't anyone do Hello World! in Genome 18:36:18 ehird, err, x86_(32|64) CPUs have that too nowdays 18:36:33 Harvard architechture for the caches I mean 18:36:37 Yeah it's not actually a Harvard architecture 18:36:38 had for ages 18:36:42 It just looks like it at first sight 18:36:50 * pikhq notes that Intel still makes Itanium chips 18:37:05 pikhq: If they don't, who will? :P 18:37:16 pikhq: They are used for e.g. scientific computing. 18:37:20 itanium is used in super computers and shit 18:37:21 GregorR: i am not quite convinced ehird remembers correctly that ZiziQue was ever on the wiki 18:37:31 oerjan: If it wasn't, it definitely existed 18:37:31 i may have linked it by error 18:37:33 difference is that x86 goes to great length to be compatible with previous versions. Thus it does support self modifying code by flushing the IL1 when the same part of memory is written to 18:37:34 oerjan: Idonno, I just found it interesting :P 18:37:35 IA64 is actually a decent architecture, amazingly enough. However, its x86_32 emulation *sucks*. 18:37:36 and it was definitely discussed 18:37:38 maybe in here 18:37:39 causing horrible performance 18:37:42 pikhq: it has none nowadays 18:37:44 pikhq: software emulation 18:37:50 pikhq: that is actually faster than the old hw one :^) 18:37:55 ehird: Hahah. 18:38:17 $ grep -i zizique * | wc -l 18:38:17 0 18:38:21 In logs not including today. 18:38:33 just stfu, okay :P 18:38:41 it may have been discussed on talk: pages 18:38:44 IA64 is awesome IMO. 18:38:57 ehird: I grepped the DB dump, it's only in that one page. 18:39:13 GregorR: Look. Just shut up. 18:39:24 ^^ 18:39:25 It was discussed, it had a site, it was for text adventures, and we knew about it. 18:39:27 That's all I know. 18:39:31 New language: HQ9+D 18:39:36 what's D 18:39:47 it is like HQ9+ but with D for "interpret rest of source as deadfish" 18:39:48 :D 18:39:59 Hrm; I thought this NAS box I had ran on some sort of XScale thing, but /proc/cpuinfo says 18:40:00 Processor : ARM926EJ-Sid(wb) rev 0 (v5l) 18:40:04 AnMaster: :D 18:40:14 Deadfish~, Deadfish~(subset) or Deadfish 18:40:27 asiekierka, which did I say 18:40:28 ... 18:40:34 deadfish~ is bloated. 18:40:39 So, this IA-32 software emulation layer... 18:40:43 fizzie: have you got a powerpc machine 18:40:46 i like powerpc 18:40:48 Why don't Linux distros just ship with qemu? 18:40:58 ehird: Just the G4 iBook. 18:41:07 fizzie: booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring 18:41:09 pikhq, eh? 18:41:13 pikhq: because it's slow as fuck 18:41:20 pikhq, there is certainly some package for it I bet. 18:41:26 for most distros 18:41:45 um duh 18:41:47 but what has it got to do with this 18:41:54 that's not what he said 18:42:24 The IA32 emulation layer is nonfree stuff... Which implies that Intel actually spent time and effort making it. 18:42:36 ehird, also what do you call bosch (sp?) if you call qemu "slow as fuck" 18:42:40 Rather than, say, modifying a few files from qemu. 18:42:50 "bochs" 18:42:51 AnMaster: *Bochs. Box. Ch as in Bach. Bochs. 18:42:53 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:42:58 AnMaster: And slow as fuck also. 18:43:01 bochs: would get parking fine if it was a car 18:43:03 pikhq: Because theirs is faster 18:43:09 pikhq: Take, for instance, icc. 18:43:09 get a* 18:43:17 Intel KNOW their architectures really well. 18:43:48 Fine; why didn't they do a decent-sized patch to qemu and get some good PR out of it? 18:44:01 Barely any PR. 18:44:07 And why would they? 18:44:17 It was probably easier to make it from scratch. 18:44:20 I bet it differs heavily. 18:44:27 For instance, it won't emulate hardware, will it? 18:44:37 Just translate the CPU instructions as directly and efficiently as possible. 18:44:40 Qemu doesn't always. 18:44:43 *ahem Qemu user mode emulation came first* 18:44:55 Qemu has user mode emulation as a major feature. ;) 18:44:59 hrm 18:45:01 Well, whatever. 18:45:06 Qemu has user emulation as its ORIGINAL feature :P 18:45:13 Heheh. 18:45:55 (Incidentally, it's bitchin' fast in that mode) 18:45:57 " Well, whatever." <-- you always say something like that when you are proven wrong. :D 18:46:09 No, that was "OK, I'm wrong, didn't know, whatever." 18:46:20 What's wrong with saying that? 18:46:24 ehird, what exactly does "whatever" mean in this context. 18:46:32 It means "whatever". 18:46:32 not clear to me as a non-native speaker 18:46:38 AnMaster: In English, "whatever" means just about anything in just about any context X-P 18:46:51 Agreed, native speakers? 18:46:53 GregorR, yes, and what exactly does it mean in this one 18:46:55 In this context, it probably means "ok, doesn't really matter, I just didn't know" 18:46:57 GregorR: yeah. 18:46:59 ah right 18:47:11 Yeah, I agree with ehird on that, that's how I interpreted it. 18:47:19 Anyway, qemu's user emulation is actually pretty darn cool. 18:47:25 i might try it 18:47:27 how'd you use it? 18:47:31 I have an ARM Debian chroot for "cross-compiling" :) 18:47:39 ehird: qemu- 18:47:52 ehird: You need the libraries installed to a path specifiable by -L, of course. 18:48:03 AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D 18:48:14 "doesn't really matter", as in the "discussion not being important", or "that the new info doesn't really change my argument"? 18:48:17 * pikhq reinstalls qemu 18:48:18 [ehird:/Applications/Q.app/Contents/MacOS/mips-softmmu.app/Contents/MacOS] % ls 18:48:18 mips-softmmu 18:48:20 GregorR: that? 18:48:30 AnMaster: "Not a big deal". 18:48:38 ehird: Oh, AFAIK user emulation doesn't work on OS X :P 18:48:40 Ah, right. You've got OS X. 18:48:42 Lawl. 18:48:43 hm ok 18:49:05 GregorR: It does; the DarWINE project did most of the work for that. 18:49:24 pikhq, ehird: Ah, OK, but it presumably only supports powerpc and x86 (maybe x86_64) 18:49:29 pikhq: that's for ppc 18:49:33 Whereas on Linux it supports OMGLOTS 18:49:33 DarWINE... what a horrible pun 18:49:46 Old Darwine was just x86 emulation + WINE. 18:49:47 ehird: Well, it requires that the target support the same OS so it can directly translate syscalls :P 18:49:50 Modern Darwine is just WINE ported over. 18:49:55 AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D <-- IDGI 18:49:59 I'm on an IA32/AMD64 machine. 18:50:11 Darwine was qemu userspace emulation + WINE. 18:50:22 Tha's wha I sai. 18:50:26 yes but ehird 18:50:31 Oh no, not psygnisfive. 18:50:36 Thus why Darwine's work on qemu matters. :p 18:50:38 if Darwine is just WINE ported over 18:50:43 which is it when PORT is wined over? 18:50:49 AnMaster: the D&Der's response fits 18:51:00 psygnisfive: ur no' fu'y 18:51:05 and seems sarcastic 18:51:07 oerjan, true 18:51:08 oerjan: Adding v5 with "COMPATIBILITY MODE" and "PROPER MODE" 18:51:15 you should know which is what xD 18:51:23 Man, mi'ing con'o'ans i' fu'. 18:51:42 fu'y? 18:51:49 fu n n y 18:51:51 fu'y 18:51:54 yes i get that 18:51:55 but 18:52:14 using stars is more fun. 18:52:20 makes it look like cursing. 18:52:23 more fu'? 18:52:30 more fu* 18:52:34 Nah, I 'on' 'in' 'o. 18:52:49 "non nin no"? 18:52:54 wut 18:52:55 Nah, I don't think so. 18:52:56 you're missing a k there, ehird 18:53:02 er 18:53:03 an h 18:53:05 D: 18:53:06 ehird, you removed too much for it to be readable there 18:53:29 I' no' my faul'. I 'an' 'elp i'. 18:53:30 "an h"... That sounds so strange. 18:53:49 why, anmaster? 18:53:54 It is incorrect. 18:53:56 But note the 's. 18:54:08 what? 18:54:11 what is incorrect 18:54:23 An h. 18:54:26 no its not 18:54:37 I know some idiotic americans think it's not, but that's because you fail at pronunciation and life. 18:54:48 actually ehird its you who fail at pronunciation and life 18:55:03 the "an" allomorph of "a" is used before words that start with a vowel sound 18:55:22 the name for "h" beings with an /eI/ diphthong vowel 18:55:35 psygnisfive, how would you spell (no IPA stuff! Just normal letters.) the way the letter "h" is pronounced. "eigcht" seems a bit off. 18:55:52 "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe 18:55:56 I see 18:56:08 in Swedish it is said more like "hå". 18:56:21 tho english letters have no genuine conventional name spelling 18:56:33 I always found the way that English pronounce the _letters_ "h" and "r" rather odd. 18:56:37 heightch. 18:56:41 heigch. 18:56:42 heigtch. 18:56:58 Yay, V5 uploaded, with the Compatibility Mode (that's for you, oerjan) 18:56:59 you cant pronounce letters 18:56:59 'aitch' is a stupid way of saying h BECAUSE IT HAS NO H 18:57:01 letters are symbols 18:57:08 its like saying you pronounce a tree. 18:57:19 ehird: aitch 18:57:22 i pronounce trees. 18:57:29 no, you dont. :P 18:57:33 psygnisfive, so say out loud all the letters of the alphabet! 18:57:43 what did you do, if you didn't pronounce them. 18:57:49 you cant 18:57:57 "Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard. It is however standard in Hiberno-English[citation needed] --"; Hiberno-English sounds strange. For people who hibernate? 18:58:03 letters of alphabets are used to represent the pronunciation or words and sounds in a language 18:58:04 you just admitted " "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe" above 18:58:15 you can pronounce a SOUND in a language, sure. 18:58:19 oh my 18:58:22 Hiberno-English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 18:58:23 Hiberno-English – also known as Anglo-Irish and Irish English – is English as spoken in Ireland, partly the result of the interaction of the English and ... 18:58:27 now we got him started. 18:58:37 yes, anmaster, "aitch" is the spelling of the name for the letter "h" 18:58:41 http://www.eamonn.com/2002/11/hibernoenglish.htm 18:58:41 as i said above :P 18:59:02 fizzie: irish english. 18:59:07 I wish there were drivers for RTL8168/8111 (PCI-E) for MS-DOS 18:59:16 psygnisfive, and that is what pronouncing the letter means to a non-language-nerd 18:59:21 so I could run 64HDD on my PC and make a netcat clone for the C64 18:59:21 :P 18:59:22 Why is it called that, though? 18:59:32 hibernia. 18:59:39 anmaster: well in that case, ok. 18:59:56 "aitch" is probably closely related to the italian "acca" for the same letter. 19:00:14 "ar(r)" ?? similar to "erre" 19:00:34 The Gaelic phrase tar eis, which means "after", is used by Hiberno-English speakers to modify verbs to indicate that an activity has been completed recently. So, instead of using the standard English present perfect " We have just finished our dinner," Hiberno-English speakers opt for: "We're after finishing our dinner just now." 19:00:43 Weird butts. 19:01:01 sounds very hiberno indeed. 19:01:10 very much an influence from Irish. 19:01:26 a be se de e ef ge hå i ji kå ell em en o pe ku err ess te u ve eks y säta å ä ö 19:01:49 (aprox.) 19:02:00 why is the english name for "r" weird to you? 19:02:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("ay bee cee dee ee eff gee aitch eye jay kay el em en oh pee queue are ess tee you vee double-you ecks why zed"). 19:02:24 psygnisfive, that is ~"are". Which is rather different 19:02:31 it's why and zee, dammit 19:02:34 the rhyme only works that way 19:02:38 yes, it's zed 19:02:42 but in the song we turn amerikan 19:02:55 in Swedish y is a vowel. 19:03:05 "are" and "err" arent all that different. 19:03:20 psygnisfive, not if you pronounce "err" in English no 19:03:24 i mean, swedish r's are different, granted 19:03:25 but try saying it in Swedish 19:03:43 but that's a fact about the consonant not the name of the letter 19:03:47 that is a short e too. While are has a long a 19:03:54 this is true 19:04:03 /ɹ/ versus /r/ 19:04:07 /er/ vs /A:r\/ 19:04:20 why did you escape that last / 19:04:21 ... 19:04:21 Bah, I don't speak SAMPA 19:04:29 its not escaped 19:04:32 yes it is 19:04:37 AnMaster: r\ is SAMPA for ɹ 19:04:39 ah 19:04:41 yes. 19:04:56 to me it looks like an escaped / from a sed expression :P 19:05:01 yeah i know. 19:05:13 SAMPA is annoying but convenient 19:05:24 i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up 19:05:26 How many IPA symbols are there? 19:05:30 uh 19:05:34 like a hundred or so i think? 19:05:35 too many? 19:05:46 Ah, Wikipedia knows 19:05:49 ignoring the diacritics and modifiers i guess 19:05:51 7 distinct letters, 52 diacritics, and 4 prosody marks 19:05:53 Err 19:05:54 107* 19:06:03 52 diacritics? no, cant be 19:06:07 i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up <-- As long as it shows up in Dejavu I'm happy 19:06:21 I think Dejavu has all of IPA but I'm not sure 19:06:27 The Unicode "IPA Extensions" page has 176 symbols. 19:06:39 heh 19:07:06 i only count 32 diacritics on the IPA wiki page 19:07:08 It probably includes composed forms 19:07:25 i guess if you include the ExtIPA additions 19:07:42 U+0250 .. U+02AF. 19:07:52 yeah, ExtIPA brings it to 52 19:07:57 on a totally unrelated line of thought. What exactly does the English "blowing a raspberry" (spelling?) mean? 19:08:25 put your tongue between your lips 19:08:32 purse your lips so airflow is slightly restricted 19:08:36 blow 19:08:46 I'd encourage you to use IPA, but urxvt and I don't get along. 19:08:50 psygnisfive, resulting in a s-like sound? 19:08:54 no 19:09:03 in more of a farting sound 19:09:06 press your lips tighter. 19:09:18 thats sort of it. 19:09:35 is the tounge sticking out? How far? 19:09:40 far enough! 19:09:53 tho i think in the context of /giving/ a raspberry its much tighter, enough so that it could be tickling when done against skin 19:10:07 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=blowing+a+raspberry&aq=f 19:10:19 psygnisfive, it sounds like a leaking tube with pressurised air... 19:10:24 brb phone 19:10:27 PRESS HARDER 19:10:31 :-P 19:10:37 deewiant 19:10:48 remind me why you know _SAMPA and IPA 19:11:02 I know some IPA because I'm interested 19:11:04 I don't know SAMPA 19:11:13 ah so you were guessing from what i wrote 19:11:21 i wish more people were smart enough to do that 19:11:28 Yeah, I assumed we both got it right :-P 19:11:51 And yes, I wish people were as smart as me as well 19:11:55 i know so many people who cant make such trivial pieces of guesswork :( 19:12:33 a professor can state something emphatically, and then go on to make a minor mistake that is obviously just a typographical error 19:12:46 but the people get all flustered like "BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID ~" 19:12:55 That annoys me to no end 19:13:08 i want to strangle those people 19:13:09 Then they make a big deal about it and are all confused and 10 minutes are lost 19:13:14 EXACTLY 19:13:15 omg 19:13:21 jos difj sof jio eo ijojt oertj eoirjt ort joer tjoerij eojt oetj oON ON ON 19:13:22 my whole italian class is like that 19:13:29 ON ON ON 19:13:33 And I'm like FFS it should have been an 'a' instead of an 'e' and that's it 19:13:35 ehird, stop speaking dutch. 19:13:49 psygnisfive: oadijasjuueu! drukkeuekńak! 19:14:00 now you're speaking hungarian! :| 19:14:02 i wonder wtf ń is 19:14:11 Doesn't sound at all Hungarian to me :-P 19:14:13 n-acute 19:14:14 duh 19:14:24 deewiant: it has the impression of it tho 19:14:31 Soon he'll be speaking Afrikaans. ... With an American accent. 19:14:39 k, weird n's, and lots of e+u stuff feels hungarian to me 19:14:39 Ew 19:14:47 afrikaans with an american accent? 19:14:50 sounds like english to me. 19:14:51 K doesn't feel Hungarian to me 19:15:00 Maybe it should, but it doesn't :-P 19:15:05 psygnisfive: No, it wouldn't. 19:15:26 "kétszikű" 19:15:29 Though it'd be somewhat close; Afrikaans *is* Germanic. 19:15:35 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:15:42 afrikaans is a descendent of early modern dutch 19:15:48 * pikhq nods 19:15:55 dutch itself sounds practically english 19:16:01 ESPECIALLY prosodically 19:16:16 No it doesn't. 19:16:21 * pikhq likes being contrary 19:16:25 :P 19:16:34 and west frisian, forget it 19:16:37 ńuerkatéçsø 19:16:43 That sounds Aztec 19:16:45 Anyone wants to see 9 lines of DEAD64V5's code? 19:16:55 there is no such thing as aztec. 19:17:08 I thought not 19:17:08 there is nahuatl 19:17:14 But couldn't remember the name 19:17:17 but nothing here looks remotely like nahuatl 19:17:27 psygnisfive: Yecatuanłã. 19:17:33 -!- jix has joined. 19:17:35 until now. 19:17:37 (that's a ~ not a ") 19:17:43 yes i can tell 19:17:45 15 GOTO 21 19:17:45 16 INPUT A$ 19:17:45 17 IF IG=1 AND A$=")" THEN IG=0 19:17:45 18 IF IG=1 THEN GOTO 22 19:17:45 19 GOTO 21 19:17:46 :P 19:17:46 20 GOTO 10 19:17:54 is this an example of the messyness of DEAD64V5 19:17:55 i know how to pronounce that, too. :D 19:18:07 or i imagine i do, if l~ is what i expect it to be. 19:18:18 Give me random numbers from 1 to 230 and I'll show code for that line 19:18:18 psygnisfive: Łā! Brokélõs! 19:18:19 if there is 19:18:35 now THAT could almost be welsh, were it not for orthography 19:18:36 I've been meaning to train myself to be able to pronounce every sound in IPA but haven't got around to it 19:18:47 Deewiant: sounds impossible 19:18:52 Lla brwcylons 19:18:57 .. cylons! D: 19:19:02 :-D 19:19:06 :D 19:19:13 ehird: Maybe, I don't think so 19:19:16 psygnisfive: Vŏktük palél :-) 19:19:29 i dont speak volapük. 19:19:38 wasn't meant to be volapük :P 19:19:41 deewiant: its hard to learn from the interwebs 19:19:49 i know ehird, but thats what came to mind :p 19:20:01 yeah me too 19:20:40 ok so 19:20:48 psygnisfive: Combination of IPA-capable dictionary + youtube goes a long way, methinks :-) 19:20:49 i figure we have programming versions of SVO languages 19:20:53 and SOV languages 19:20:57 and VSO languages 19:21:05 SVO: Smalltalk. 19:21:08 well, O*V and VO* 19:21:09 SOV: Stack-based. 19:21:12 VSO: Procedural. 19:21:16 SVO is just object oriented 19:21:20 True. 19:21:23 SOV is forth, yah 19:21:27 VSO is lisp 19:21:32 SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural. 19:21:36 Use paradigms. 19:21:42 VSO is also functional. 19:21:43 VSO: functional 19:21:46 True. 19:21:50 SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural/functional. 19:21:54 More canonically functional, IMO. 19:21:54 SVO is sort of procedural 19:22:00 i wish more people were smart enough to do that <-- Smart? So never having heard the word "sampa" before means someone is stupid? 19:22:08 AnMaster: that's not what he said 19:22:10 given the wealth of Var OP Exp stuff 19:22:13 maybe you should learn to read, AnMaster 19:22:14 So what, are we missing OSV OVS VOS? 19:22:16 ehird, it seemed to be what he said. 19:22:30 yes indeed deewiant 19:22:30 AnMaster: Congrats! I bestow unto you the "cannot read or comprehend" award, then. 19:22:40 Deewiant: I think S and O are interchangable. 19:22:41 psygnisfive: Do we have natural languages like that? 19:22:44 It's down to the programmer, mostly. 19:22:51 Although... OVS would be weird. 19:22:52 To an extent, yes. 19:22:54 yes, we do. they are RARE tho 19:22:58 oranges.eat(sam). 19:23:02 That's just not good for a programming language. 19:23:07 Even if it can be made to work naturally. 19:23:13 oranges.getEatenBy(sam) 19:23:16 the use of Subjects is mostly applicable in OO style tho 19:23:18 It doesn't reflect the operations performed at all. 19:23:20 Deewiant: Well sure. 19:23:23 actually no, deewiant 19:23:26 that wouldnt be it at all 19:23:38 that would be merely a passivized version 19:23:44 where oranges ARE the subject 19:23:49 OVS would look more like... 19:23:50 yeah 19:23:54 (oranges)eat.sam 19:23:58 :-D 19:24:02 (oranges,hungrily)eat.sam 19:24:06 Oranges hungrily eat Sam. 19:24:25 and since its horrible for a programming language 19:24:27 clearly 19:24:29 it must be done. 19:24:30 Wasn't Klingon OVS? 19:24:33 yes 19:24:34 OVS? 19:24:43 the intention was to make it as un-english like as possible 19:24:56 Yeah, it's OVS. 19:24:56 Open Versioning System? 19:25:09 ... 19:25:10 Object Verb Subject 19:25:11 interestingly, the notion of Object and Subject are, I would say, completely meaningless 19:25:13 aha 19:25:16 psygnisfive: agreed 19:25:17 psygnisfive: The intention was to make it as alien as possible, rather. Slight difference. 19:25:20 psygnisfive: It's very single dispatch. 19:25:26 psygnisfive: Yeah, that's what ehird was going on about earlier 19:25:33 well, not so much that, ehird 19:25:51 its just that in the underlying semantics theres no difference 19:26:05 i mean 19:26:12 normally people think of sentences as being Subject-Predicate 19:26:15 P(S) 19:26:21 but thats only sort of true 19:26:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 19:26:32 psygnisfive: Lojban is interesting here. It thinks directly in predicates. 19:26:49 * pikhq wants VSO, OSV, and: V, S, and O languages 19:26:55 because in formal semantics, P can be a lambda 19:27:12 which means it can be like multi-arg functions 19:27:20 VSO... Eat Sam oranges. 19:27:27 P(S) === (P'(R))S 19:27:28 OSV... oranges Sam eat. 19:27:29 or whatever 19:27:33 Functional, concatenative. 19:28:08 eat(sam, oranges) 19:28:09 we need an OO language with a weird ordering like this 19:28:13 psygnisfive: Heh. So a strong type system + language is logic (curry-howard), and linguistics is programming (you). 19:28:17 Therefore, linguistics is logic. 19:28:26 (oranges)sam.eat 19:28:27 I'd demand an SOV language, but there is one. 19:28:27 o.O 19:28:44 ehird: well, some of linguistics is very closely related to logic 19:28:59 Curry and Howard did their work FOR linguistic semantics, essentially 19:29:00 psygnisfive: Yeah, but we have a whole trifecta of equivalences: Programming = logic = linguistics. :-) 19:29:01 Sam oranges eat. 19:29:03 Actually, why did I even ask about natural languages, Finnish can do all of SOV SVO VSO VOS OSV OVS, with the non-Vxx ones probably being the most normal-sounding ones. 19:29:06 Which is sweet. 19:29:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:29:12 Deewiant: so can russian 19:29:13 (Samu ha orenji wo taberu) 19:29:19 wa* 19:29:24 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 19:29:32 Deewiant: So can English. 19:29:41 english can do a lot of them 19:29:41 pikhq: Oranges Sam eat? 19:29:46 eats* 19:29:51 which is valid english 19:29:57 Is it? 19:29:59 however, its a topicalization structure 19:30:02 Yes, Deewiant. 19:30:03 psygnisfive: I type as though it were going into a Japanese IME. 19:30:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:30:06 a left-dislocation of the topical element 19:30:09 Deewiant: "Hello", Sam says. 19:30:12 And yes, it's valid English, if little-used. 19:30:13 "Hello", says Sam. 19:30:15 Sam says "Hello". 19:30:23 Are the valid orderings. 19:30:25 hi ais523 19:30:28 hi 19:30:28 Hmm, that comma. 19:30:31 ehird: literary use of "say" is very different actually 19:30:34 its not generic 19:30:38 True. 19:30:42 But you can twist most thigns into that. 19:30:46 It's just that say is the only one that feels natural. 19:30:47 not really 19:30:51 Deewiant: yeah, you need the comma. 19:30:56 ehird: Yes, I know. 19:30:59 the comma just denotes prosody 19:31:07 pay no mind to commas 19:31:09 I was just thinking that that's somewhat of a special case. 19:32:01 english, despite being a "fixed" word order language, is replete with transformations for changing word order to add pragmatic content 19:32:20 English used to not be as fixed in its word order. 19:32:27 true 19:32:27 I still can't see "oranges Sam eats" as being very valid :-P 19:32:43 deewiant, its a topical construction 19:32:43 Middle English wasn't much of a fixed word order language, and Early Modern English wasn't, either. 19:32:52 Deewiant: "Oranges Sam eats" is valid. 19:32:53 as in "ORANGES, sam eats, but not apples." 19:32:55 It's just awkward. 19:33:07 It's Oranges[tiny pause] Sam eats. 19:33:13 And "sa" is deeper. 19:33:17 Deewiant: Normally, I'd stick a comma in there. "Oranges, Sam eats" makes it seem a bit more natural. 19:33:27 pikhq: not standalone 19:33:29 But yes, it's a quite valid construction. 19:33:35 yes, again, as i said, the comma denotes prosody 19:33:42 which ehird denoted with [tiny pause] 19:33:46 and "sam" being deeper 19:33:54 ehird: Standalone, it's also valid. 19:33:54 "Oranges eats Sam"? 19:33:57 the tiny pause is shorter than a comma 19:33:59 Just archaic. 19:34:00 in "Oranges Sam eats" 19:34:01 imo 19:34:12 i guess the comma is different in this case 19:34:14 to a bog standard , 19:34:23 interestingly, because a lot of these transformations demarcate presuppositional content of a sentence, you can only use them in the portion of a sentence that contains an ASSERTION 19:34:28 which is cool. 19:34:32 What about "Oranges eats Sam"? 19:34:39 horrible. 19:34:42 Valid? 19:34:50 i cannot get any OVS constructions to work in english 19:34:55 Deewiant: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessss... 19:34:56 Sort of... 19:35:00 But people will look at you very funny. 19:35:10 Oranges, eats Sam. is slightly better 19:35:11 People will look at you funny for "oranges eats Sam" as well 19:35:17 ehird: looking at you funny basically means its bad. :) 19:35:21 I'm going to say "no" unless you come up with something clever. 19:35:22 where the , is basically as long as a ; 19:35:26 psygnisfive: it's valid, just bad 19:35:29 The problem with English is that there's no authority for what's valid 19:35:34 bad means invalid, ehird :p 19:35:48 and there IS an authority, deewiant 19:35:51 the speakers. 19:35:54 Exactly. 19:36:00 I'd say it's valid 19:36:01 when you do large scale study of the syntax of english 19:36:03 Meaning that if you're looked at funny it's not valid 19:36:03 Just very awkward 19:36:17 you find that things are good or bad to different degrees 19:36:24 Yep. 19:36:27 If you want to see what word orders are valid, it's probably easiest to see which ones Shakespeare used. 19:36:28 and OVS is generally not taken to be good. 19:36:30 ;p 19:36:36 the thing about grammaticality judgements tho is 19:36:42 Validity is a relative concept in English. 19:36:50 most people will not understand what we mean by grammatical 19:36:55 this is true for any language, ofcourse 19:36:58 but like 19:37:07 a lot of times people think it means "can you figure out what im trying to say" 19:37:12 which is not what grammaticality is at all 19:37:33 grammaticality is more like "would it feel nature to you to say this?" or "would it sound odd if you heard this said?" 19:37:39 wtf R U talk about psygnisfive???????? lol ur freak 19:37:49 would it feel nature to you to say this 19:37:50 how ironic! 19:38:00 natural* 19:38:04 VERY ironic! 19:38:16 http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/silverstone-raven/01.jpg Computer case. Comes with cat. 19:38:21 Thinking about it more I'd have to say that "oranges Sam eats" is 'invalid', because nobody thinks that's normal 19:38:36 lots of people think its normal, deewiant 19:38:42 the order, anyway 19:38:45 I was hoping you wouldn't say that :-) 19:38:48 but you DO need the special prosody. 19:38:53 It's most commonly used in poetry, but it does come up in conversation rather often. 19:39:09 actually its probably more used in conversation than in poetry 19:39:16 just going by sheer number of times used 19:39:20 Can you give me a decent example 19:39:20 Mmm, possibly. 19:39:25 Maybe I'm just not realizing it 19:39:28 sure, i did earlier :p 19:39:45 "I can't see Alice." "What about Bill?" "Bill I can see." 19:39:53 exactly. 19:40:01 Ah, there we go. 19:40:14 another example, where its almost completely acceptable without ANY presuppositional meaning, is with quantified expressions 19:40:14 I guess I can't argue validity for different instances of the same construct :-) 19:40:14 as in 19:40:26 "every book that john reads john likes" 19:40:46 there it actually i guess some sort of focus use 19:41:01 I'd say "he likes" 19:41:03 For maximum confusion 19:41:13 wouldnt be confusing at all ;) 19:41:22 It can be in context. 19:41:33 psygnisfive: is to a linguist! 19:41:34 Say you've been talking about someone else for a bit. 19:41:35 ;p 19:41:36 well, if there is some other male around 19:41:37 but 19:41:38 ↑ that's odd too 19:41:40 starting with "is" 19:41:44 sort of 19:41:45 thats just the nature of indexicals in general 19:42:12 ehird: thats called null subject 19:42:26 its common in colloquial english, and in many romance languages 19:42:37 s/colloquial/spoken/ 19:43:17 written/more formal english has grammatical null subject in imperatives 19:43:22 (You) go to your room! 19:44:17 More formal English? That's common conversational English as well. 19:44:41 yes, i know 19:44:58 Point was that validity in formal english is the highest level of validity... or something like that 19:45:00 i was merely saying that more formal english doesnt have null subject except in imperatives 19:45:12 Oh. Misunderstood. 19:45:31 ehird, if youre interested in the language = logic (or i guess if anyone else is) 19:45:47 you should look at Categorial Grammar and its offspring 19:46:34 CG, and its most famous derivative, CCG, are essentially just words-as-lambdas-with-direction-specific-application-rules 19:46:43 hot 19:47:11 it really is interesting 19:47:27 CCG is where i got all that type-lifting nonnyhoggins from 19:47:46 i discussed some of it with oklopol and we decided that the idea was interesting and worth making into an esolang 19:48:14 because you can code up some absolutely convoluted things that make NO fucking sense except they do, because you can do crazy type shifting operations and stuff 19:49:57 since were on the topic of natural language stuff 19:50:08 theres a particular construction in english and a number of other languages called determiner sharing 19:50:22 which results in one of the WEIRDEST fucking semantic properties ive ever seen 19:51:24 for example 19:51:40 "many dogs eat alpo and cats whiskas" 19:51:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:52:03 with the appropriate prosody (slight emphasis on "dogs" and "cats") 19:52:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:52:13 gives the same reading as "many dogs eat alpo and many cats eat whiskas" 19:52:25 http://tinyurl.com/rael3l 19:52:56 so theres this sort of ... "invisible" quantifier and invisible verb, that get picked up from the previous ones 19:53:14 GregorR: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees? 19:53:15 "many_i dogs eat_j alpo and Q_i cats V_j whiskas" 19:53:20 oh, it's 3d street view 19:53:21 English has very, *very* weird grammar. 19:53:21 haha 19:53:28 but like, get this 19:53:33 try a negative quantifier 19:53:35 ehird: Somebody is very clever :P 19:53:40 "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas" 19:53:49 this does NOT mean "no dogs eat alpo, or no cats eat whiskas" 19:53:57 it means "no dogs eat alpo, and no cats eat whiskas" 19:54:15 in the D-shared version, you have OR, but in the explicit version you have AND 19:54:15 :D 19:54:17 psygnisfive: the or goes elsewhere, I think 19:54:24 ehird: actually it doesnt 19:54:29 "no (dogs|cats) eat (alpo|whiskas)" 19:54:29 the or is genuinely there 19:54:32 it's ORing the two arguments 19:54:37 whats REALLY going on is this: 19:54:40 English is just a natural Esolang. 19:54:43 "no" is compositionall "not some" 19:55:01 "some is the real quantifier thats being shared 19:55:13 while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or: 19:55:46 "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)" 19:55:58 so the OR has higher scope that some 19:55:59 ah, clever 19:56:03 ais523: you'd like that 19:56:05 but NOT has higher scope than OR 19:56:09 which is WEIRD 19:56:13 ais523: if an operation is an abbreviation of two operations, precedence 19:56:14 ais523: like 19:56:18 foo = bar baz 19:56:23 foo x quux y 19:56:25 could be 19:56:31 bar ((baz x) quux y) 19:56:32 because both NOT and SOME are lexicalized in the SAME WORD "no" 19:56:34 ehird: I'm rather busy atm 19:56:34 so not paying attention 19:56:36 trying to catch up on weekly nomic duties before midnight... 19:56:44 so that one part of "no" scopes LOWER than OR, while the OTHER part scopes HIGHER 19:56:52 the same is true of FEW = NOT MANY 19:56:57 ehird: like #define in C? 19:57:03 ais523: yep, but in english 19:57:05 its a completely baffling aspect of scope 19:57:06 ais523: no = not some 19:57:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:57:14 19:53 psygnisfive: "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas" 19:57:14 19:55 psygnisfive: "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)" 19:57:22 and before: 19:57:22 19:54 psygnisfive: "no" is compositionall "not some" 19:57:23 19:55 psygnisfive: "some is the real quantifier thats being shared 19:57:25 19:55 psygnisfive: while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or: 19:57:27 pretty funny 19:57:55 what now? 19:58:12 I was pasting for ais523 19:58:16 oh 19:58:20 cant he scroll up? :p 19:58:28 he is busy. 19:58:30 anyway, its a completely baffling thing. i have no idea how to hand that syntactically 19:58:30 I'm still not paying attention, so stop pasting for me 19:58:33 playing agora :-P 19:58:38 nevermind semantically 19:58:46 all i know is the facts about negation scoping there. 19:58:55 its not even optional, its OBLIGATORY 19:58:59 unlike sentential negation 19:59:11 which can in some sentences have different scopes 20:00:00 this kind of shit is all over the place in natural language, its amazing 20:00:04 and really rather cool 20:01:19 oh, also, ehird, i know you like haskell and type theoretic logicy things, right so 20:01:31 you should check out Montague semantics/grammar 20:01:37 lots of type theoretic stuff 20:01:51 more like type theoretic dung beetle, am I right? 20:01:59 :P 20:02:05 to the extent that like 20:02:13 a dung beetle 20:02:22 you can trivially translate montague's stuff into haskell types 20:02:39 montague uses (a,b) or for haskells a -> b 20:02:56 and _everything_ is typed 20:03:01 fricken everything 20:03:35 quantifiers are presumed to have type ((e,t),t) 20:03:55 which i guess is equivalent to haskell forall a. (a -> Bool) -> Bool 20:04:51 tho there are only two primitive types in montague semantics, e for individuals, and t for boolean values, so... 20:05:13 i guess quantified NPs are ((e,t),t) 20:05:42 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:06:04 the quantifier itself is probably like ((e,t),((e,t),t)) or something 20:06:06 i dont know 20:06:15 yeah, that seems right 20:06:49 all :: (a -> Bool) -> (a -> Bool) -> Bool 20:07:57 all(Birds)(Fly) ~= { x : Bird(x) } subset { x : Flyer(x) } 20:08:17 ::nod:: yes that makes sense 20:09:35 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:39 psygnisfive: that (a->Bool) thing is bunk 20:13:47 psygnisfive: that "all" can't be valid because it can't check every single case 20:13:54 psygnisfive: you need a way to iterate over all of them 20:14:09 well, this isnt supposed to be a true haskell thing ;) 20:14:22 all :: ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Bool 20:14:26 this is just the truth conditional logic of the all quantifier 20:14:42 or something 20:15:12 i mean, i guess if you had a haskell function subset 20:15:15 you could do something like 20:16:19 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:17:05 forall a. forall b. all :: (a -> Bool) -> (b -> bool) -> Bool 20:17:06 all apred bpred = subset [x | x <- U, apred x] [x | x <- U, bpred x] 20:17:41 or something like that. really itd just be all :: (Individual -> Bool) -> (Individual -> Bool) -> Bool 20:17:51 since all _things_ are of the same entity type 20:18:02 and that should, i think, work. 20:21:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:23:27 hi ais523 20:23:37 hi AnMaster 20:23:40 I'm a bit busy atm though 20:23:43 ok 20:32:38 -!- jix has joined. 20:36:50 GregorR, you're on DS now? 20:36:59 yeah 20:38:12 The DeathStation. 20:38:47 * Sgeo is thinking of making "Dream Serums" 20:39:33 A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems 20:40:01 -!- tombom has joined. 20:40:36 Peace serum make cause permanent brain damage 20:40:54 LOL 20:40:56 Can has? 20:41:11 Doesn't exist yet 20:41:16 I need someone to make graphics 20:41:26 I can make shitty graphics, if shitty is what you're going for ;) 20:41:28 And I'm still uncertain about making vendors 20:41:42 GregorR, I'd like good graphics, but shitty will do for now 20:42:03 Is there an agent that will kill any norn that slaps another even once? :P 20:42:19 (The Saudi agent) 20:42:33 GregorR, it can be made fairly easily 20:42:43 And there are at least two general anti-slap agents out there 20:42:59 Clucky's, which separates the norns, and mine, which prevents hitting from having any effect 20:43:08 I suspect that mine isn't well know 20:43:10 known 20:43:26 The Bondi norns are hitting me 20:43:30 Names? (URLs? 20:43:32 ) 20:44:36 Not sure where mine is 20:45:15 Looking for Clucky's 20:45:19 Sgeo: I have lots of pregnancies, lots of eggs, and they never hatch >_> 20:45:36 GregorR, my superbreeders are in your world? 20:45:49 Open the options panel, and change the lower green number to something higher 20:46:31 http://web.archive.org/web/20080108054728/clucky.sts.winisp.net/Agents/Forms/AgentsForDS.aspx High Tech Hand, which includes Clucky's Stop Slapping Norns and Stop Slapping Creatures 20:47:00 Sgeo: Nope, these are all pure, I'm just letting it go and seeing what happens :P 20:47:27 (Except I want to toss in tons of agents before doing that :P ) 20:48:43 Best way to make sure norns are educated: Hook up a timer to a vocabulizer 20:50:22 * GregorR does that. 20:51:43 does ds work on osx 20:52:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:52:30 A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems <-- what on earth is a "norn" 20:52:38 >_< 20:52:44 AnMaster: You have a great ability to rehash conversations. 20:53:01 Game. Creatures. Artificial life. 20:53:09 AI. 20:53:10 I see 20:53:24 open source? 20:53:27 No. Old. 20:53:29 1990s. 20:53:36 Docking Station is a recent one. Freeware. 20:53:45 Windows, Linux, dunno about OS X. 20:53:57 (The old ones aren't linux.) 20:53:58 AnMaster: The Norn was in charge of a group of Valkyries in Norse legend, I believe 20:54:14 ais523: that's both 100% correct and 100% irrelevant :) 20:54:19 ais523, That explains why it sounded familiar! 20:54:21 a different sort of norn? 20:54:23 Yes. 20:54:26 AnMaster: you probably know it from NetHack 20:54:27 20:53 ehird: Game. Creatures. Artificial life. 20:54:27 20:53 ehird: AI. 20:54:31 ais523, indeed 20:55:16 ais523, haven't played val for several months by now 20:55:29 haven't played nh for several months even 20:56:35 great, you can have DS for OS X, but you have to pay 20:56:38 Sgeo: pirate it for me plz 20:56:51 ehird, C3? 20:56:55 oh 20:56:57 DS for OS X 20:57:00 >.> 20:57:00 yar 20:57:00 http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Exodus 20:57:14 I am under the impression that DS for OS X sucks 20:57:22 i am under the impression that your mom sucks 20:57:28 Apparently, a lot of things don't work in DS for OS X 20:57:29 I've got that game 20:57:49 Creatures hasn't done anything good in ten years 20:57:55 AFK 20:58:01 Slereah, heard of the Warp? 20:58:01 Slereah: wut 20:58:24 Also, the Genetics Kit and stuff are free now 20:58:24 Afk 20:59:39 No 20:59:41 Sauce 20:59:53 docking station has a warp thing 20:59:58 it gives norns to other people. 21:00:05 That sounds boring 21:00:15 People have been exchanging norns on the internet way before that 21:00:27 Slereah: tell that to the DS users, Sgeo gave them all an ultraviolent norn and an ultrabreeder norn 21:00:30 without their consent :^) 21:00:31 why 21:00:33 well, not them all, but a lot 21:00:35 kekeke 21:00:38 AnMaster: what do you mean why 21:00:38 does GIMP input controller dialog 21:00:41 support MIDI? 21:00:46 that makes no sense 21:00:50 sure it dos 21:00:51 does 21:00:57 paint by notes! 21:01:10 also, maybe some custom input things give via midi 21:01:21 unconventional "musical instrument" things could be used 21:01:22 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309after.gif 21:01:38 <3 smbc 21:01:44 (before: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309.gif) 21:02:17 :-D 21:03:31 ehird, here it is: http://omploader.org/vMW5vYg 21:03:38 (the gimp input config dialog) 21:03:53 oh my god AnMaster, set up a gtk theme, even the one that uses qt 21:03:56 raleigh breaks my eyes 21:04:07 it's worse than windows 95! 21:04:32 ehird, how does one do it with none of gnome installed (except gtk itself) 21:04:42 and really, I like this gtk theme 21:04:48 AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine-kde4 21:04:50 or 21:04:50 wait 21:04:51 not as bad as most other 21:04:51 you use kde3 21:04:53 AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine 21:04:55 and 21:04:58 adjust for OS 21:05:00 I don't use debian 21:05:01 :P 21:05:05 you KNOW that 21:05:14 AnMaster: it's gtk-qt-engine on gentoo, apparently 21:05:16 anyway, once you've done that 21:05:18 ehird, and I tried that gtk-qt-engine thing. 21:05:21 it was worse. 21:05:25 what? 21:05:27 it just uses your kde theme! 21:05:27 it rendered incorrectly 21:05:39 ehird, like, buttons over text next to them 21:05:40 and such 21:05:43 well, try updating it then :P 21:05:47 software gets improved 21:05:59 less work to live with current theme 21:06:06 you did ask. 21:06:36 ehird, yes, I had expected it to be much less work :P 21:06:41 AnMaster: erm 21:06:43 updating a package? 21:06:46 that's so damn hard 21:07:07 ehird, no. I tried it recently you see. Like 2-3 weeks ago. Checked it was the last version 21:07:26 AnMaster: at least install the Mist theme; that's pretty much like the kde 2 theme 21:07:34 i.e., plain but the edges are less subdued than Raleigh 21:07:58 AnMaster: gtk-engines-mist, fwiw. 21:08:06 or hm 21:08:08 just gtk-engines 21:08:10 yeah, no 21:08:11 and x11-themes/gtk-engines-qt hasn't been updated since then 21:08:12 gtk-themes 21:08:14 gentoo is weird 21:08:16 gtk-themes is right 21:08:34 x11-themes/gtk-theme-switch ? 21:08:43 AnMaster: gtk-themes 21:08:52 $ eix gtk-themes 21:08:52 No matches found. 21:08:52 and install chtheme if you want to use a switcher 21:08:56 AnMaster: what o 21:08:57 s 21:09:01 Gentoo... 21:09:05 AnMaster: ok, do gtk-engines 21:09:20 AnMaster: and also gtk-chtheme 21:09:34 then just start gtk-chtheme and choose Mist. 21:09:39 hm x11-themes/gtk-engines-2.16.1 is installed 21:09:49 then just start gtk-chtheme :-P 21:09:57 $ gtk-chtheme 21:09:57 bash: gtk-chtheme: command not found 21:10:04 have you installed gtk-chtheme? 21:10:12 x11-themes/gtk-chtheme no 21:10:18 then... guess what :-P 21:10:22 um... 21:10:27 trick question? 21:10:30 nope. 21:10:32 install gtk-chtheme first. 21:10:45 oh. I would never have guessed _THAT_ 21:10:53 yeah 21:11:08 anyway I didn't find what I was looking for in gimp 21:11:15 which was that "one window" thing 21:11:19 My arrow keys stopped working :( 21:11:25 AnMaster: any luck? 21:11:25 because I got tired of trying to find all the different pallets 21:11:32 ehird, with what? 21:11:38 AnMaster: gtk-chtheme... 21:11:42 &mist 21:12:50 ehird, I'm upgrading other stuff atm, will do it after. Yes gentoo supports concurrent installs and manages locking correctly, but I don't have enough ram to both handle rebuilding QT, having a huge image open in gimp and build yet another package :P 21:13:01 did I mention source distros suck? 21:13:07 i hereby mention thus 21:13:22 ehird, there are both pros and cons. For both source and binary distros 21:13:36 pros of binary distros: have ram left to install more packages, wait less 21:13:44 cons: firefox takes 5ms longer to start 21:13:47 dayum! 21:13:51 what a hard choice :-) 21:14:48 cons: you get all apps built against libXinerama just because some user *might* be able to afford more than one monitor. 21:14:50 and so on 21:15:16 oh and curl is build with ipv6 support, when you need it with ares support 21:15:20 so you have to build your own 21:15:35 curl couldn't do ipv6 and ares last I checked. 21:15:40 they conflicted 21:15:57 AnMaster: (1) Oh no, that's SEVERAL MEGABYTES! (2) That's totally a bug. Also, you can do that with two packages or variants of packages. 21:16:57 What about having stuff with GTK support and *not* GNOME support? 21:16:57 not a bug. It is just not possible currently. 21:17:02 missing feature != bug 21:17:09 pikhq, that too 21:17:37 I don't want gnome support, and not gtk support unless the app needs it and I can't use some alternative one. 21:17:43 Gimp falls into the latter categoryu 21:17:45 category* 21:18:00 pikhq: Multiple megabytes! Also, variants. AnMaster: Two orthogonal features conflicting = bug. 21:18:21 ehird, orthogonal? How do you mean in this case. 21:18:36 They are very related. 21:18:37 AnMaster: what have ipv6 and ares got to do with each other? 21:18:41 there's no reason they should conflict 21:18:47 you know what ares is? 21:19:04 I've heard of it, but I don't recall, no. 21:19:14 Still, if two features conflict they should conflict at RUNTIME. 21:19:38 async dns library. Which doesn't support ipv6. 21:19:39 ehird, you need to build packages more. :p 21:19:46 and what pikhq said 21:19:54 I really don't. 21:19:59 Fuck source distros :) 21:20:09 ehird, you need to be a package maintainer then 21:20:25 AnMaster: I have written packages before, IIRC. 21:20:35 * pikhq wonders how well the typical binary distro handles USE="-ldap", for example 21:20:51 ehird, not library/application maintainer. Rather maintainer of a package, of a distro 21:20:54 pikhq: By forcing you to waste *megabytes* of disk space. 21:20:55 AnMaster: Yes. I know. 21:21:01 such as for debian 21:21:29 ehird, megabytes of memory too 21:21:30 ehird: Uh... Megabytes of RAM space. 21:21:36 indeed 21:21:37 Yes. 21:21:39 MEGABYTSE. 21:21:41 *MEGABYTES 21:21:51 ehird, not all of us have 6 GB RAM :P 21:21:51 Also, a few milliseconds on startup due to not being tuned to your CPU. 21:21:56 Truly our binary life is horrific. 21:22:03 AnMaster: 2GB is very much enough... 21:22:07 Not all of us can stick 36GB RAM in a system. 21:22:08 ehird, 1.5 GB here 21:22:18 used to have 512mb 21:22:21 Srsly, we're talking MEGABYTES here. 21:22:23 until this year 21:22:27 yes my old computer had 512 mb too 21:22:28 Quit the hyperbole. 21:22:29 I find my RAM in plenty of use with hardly anything going. 21:22:30 that was a few years ago 21:22:41 ehird, I have a thousand of them. 21:22:54 pikhq: That's the compilation :-P 21:23:01 pikhq, even when not counting the kernel cache? 21:23:03 My browser takes about half of them. 21:23:12 AnMaster: Thousand megabytes total. 21:23:18 Besides, if you don't have much RAM... why are you compiling all the time?! That's just gonna be hell. 21:23:19 * pikhq has 1GB of RAM. 21:23:29 pikhq: 1024, surely. 21:23:37 1 GiB? 21:23:37 ... Who the hell compiles constantly. 21:23:38 :P 21:23:38 Seagate gigabytes are only used for HDs. 21:23:44 pikhq: people who use source distros 21:23:53 No... 21:23:54 ehird, you are misinformed then 21:24:00 My weekly update takes at most a couple of hours. 21:24:06 WHEN I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING. 21:24:11 WHEN I'M SLEEPING. 21:24:15 same here. 21:24:20 WHEN I'M USING CAPSLOCK. 21:24:36 SHIFT; I DON'T HAVE A CPASLOCK. 21:24:52 NOR DO I HAVE A CAPSLOCK. 21:24:56 what have you mapped your caps lock? 21:25:11 A proper Control key. 21:25:14 I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP. 21:25:15 "proper"? 21:25:18 pikhq: THAT'S GONNA GIVE YOU RSI, YOU KNOW. 21:25:37 pikhq: TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HAND DOES WHEN YOU USE THAT CAPS LOCK CONTROL KEY. 21:25:38 UNIX keyboard layouts have a Ctrl to the left of A. 21:25:45 ehird, rick roll takes a new meaning when it is about the caps lock indeed! 21:25:47 Well, maybe not RSI. One of them tingymajigs. 21:25:54 AnMaster: Wat 21:26:06 Oh, my poor pinky. 21:26:12 * AnMaster watches ehird sing "never gonna give it up" to his caps lock key. " I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP." 21:26:14 Moving from A a tiny bit. 21:26:18 AnMaster: :-D 21:26:27 pikhq: Oh come on, try depressing it. 21:26:31 It's simply unergonomical. 21:27:08 What, and having a Ctrl below Shift is less so? 21:27:17 Yep 21:27:26 What the crap are you smoking? 21:27:36 Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. 21:27:51 Uh, yes it does. 21:27:58 It doesn't for Ctrl at A, though. 21:28:08 * pikhq thinks ehird sucks at typing 21:28:09 you have mutant hands 21:28:11 actually the only issue with source based distros are: Firefox and Thunderbird. Even QT isn't very slow to compile. And for OpenOffice you use the binary package. 21:28:24 I like how using a binary package still counts as source-based. 21:28:29 It's deliciously nonsensical. 21:28:33 AnMaster: Firefox isn't that bad. 21:28:43 Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. <-- mutant hands indeed 21:29:02 pikhq, Actually ff 3 seems faster to compile than ff 2 21:29:03 ehird: OpenOffice is a terrible load of bloat. 21:29:05 strnage 21:29:07 swapping control and caps lock is common, but I havne't 21:29:09 *haven't 21:29:17 It takes a *lot* of time to compile. 21:29:24 (and about 5GB of disk space) 21:29:32 I never tried 21:29:41 I heard enough horror stories 21:29:52 I just use Koffice instead. 21:30:05 I use better paradigms :P 21:30:09 pikhq, I use use lyx for word processing :P 21:30:16 Or TeX. 21:30:23 kile too yeah 21:30:32 but LyX makes it so much easier. 21:30:36 ehird, what paradigm? 21:30:45 Depends. 21:30:49 ehird, examples 21:31:17 I don't "process words", I'm either typesetting something (TeX or alikes) or just lightly formatting some text (Markdown) 21:31:31 I don't use spreadsheets, I use plain text files (and for the calculation parts, some scripts). 21:31:42 Admittedly, these aren't the most mainstream paradigms, but they're the easiest way to do it for me. 21:31:55 I find office suites to be almost entirely worthless. 21:32:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:33:09 ehird, yeah. Only need them to open files I get. 21:33:34 I hear good things about antiword for viewing Word documents. 21:33:48 what about spreadsheets 21:33:49 For ODF, though, no clue. 21:33:56 ehird, also, how do you do your presentations? 21:33:57 ;P 21:34:03 AnMaster: Stab. Stab. Stab. 21:34:10 ehird, huh 21:34:10 TeX has a presentation mode, though I'm not familiar with it. 21:34:18 Interestingly, a lot more documents/spreadsheets are on Google Docs nowadays. 21:34:19 I do presentations with latex-beamer to PDF. 21:34:20 pikhq, yeah I heard ConTeXt was good for it 21:34:24 as well 21:34:25 So I just point my browser at them. 21:34:34 Apart from that, though, I find I rarely want to read a spreadsheet. 21:34:40 21:34 AnMaster: ehird, huh ← I hate presentations. 21:34:45 ehird, why 21:34:49 I didn't know that 21:34:54 Please read Tufte's "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint". 21:35:13 ehird, link 21:35:20 bookstore.reality 21:35:34 AnMaster: If you want a summary in presentation form... http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000931 21:35:35 ;-) 21:35:56 It has a very nice front cover: http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_pp 21:36:06 Quite. 21:36:10 Tufte's a clever guy. 21:36:26 must find replacement 21:36:26 * Good: teaching kids to smoke 21:36:37 Our information-visualization course had a pile of Tufte books in the "potential reading for interested people" category. 21:38:14 ehird, how many presentations have you seen btw. I have seen both good and bad ones. 21:38:22 AnMaster: too many. 21:38:26 and just reading the slides isn't useful at all. 21:38:31 I know 21:38:59 * AnMaster hates when you find a link on the GCC wiki or whatever to slides from some developer meeting and that being almost useless to explain the issue. 21:41:04 Based on the prevalence of similar-looking slides in our seminar-format courses, using LaTeX with the "beamer" package is perhaps the most common way of making slides; well, at least for the more science-oriented departments. I guess presentation-culture might be different at the software business side. 21:41:05 also powerpoint is horrible yes. 21:42:00 slides can be useful when they are displaying something hard to describe in words. Such as a diagram, an image or similar 21:42:39 ehird, also, next time you are at a cinema, remember it is just slides, switched very quickly :P 21:45:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:46:36 It's not so much that presentations are bad, but people really, really suck at using presentation tools right. 21:47:25 And Powerpoint doesn't help in the least. 21:48:19 indeed. 21:48:58 but I have seen it done right. Without computer. Hand written overhead. 21:49:01 Anyone remember that? 21:49:32 A decent slideshow for presentations should have slides that show little more than, say, diagrams, visualisations... Relevant formulae or algorithms... 21:49:49 AnMaster: Yeah, saw it done a lot by high school teachers. 21:50:05 Some of whom did a Powerpoint-style overhead. X_X 21:51:35 good slides are just a backdrop to a speech 21:51:45 they don't really convey the information by themselves, they're meant as something to look at whilst listening 21:52:07 ais523, so no useful diagrams? 21:52:16 oh, they can be useful 21:52:23 just diagrams don't normally tell the whole story 21:52:47 ais523, or relevant pictures? 21:52:55 Yeah, it should be a supplement to the speech. Definitely. 21:53:01 they don't normally tell the whole story either 21:53:22 generally speaking, when I do presentations, my slides are pictures but you can't tell what they mean without the description given in speech 21:53:33 ais523, not the whole story. But sometimes you can't say it in words easily. 21:53:53 AnMaster: are you trying to disagree with me? 21:53:57 ais523, no 21:54:00 I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing 21:54:02 but ok 21:54:04 just saying sometimes slides are needed. 21:54:09 !help 21:54:10 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 21:54:10 rare, but can happen 21:54:34 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:54:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:54:55 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:00 ais523, example: You are on an aircraft accident investigation team. You are now describing some specific damages to some relevant people outside the team. The media maybe? Who knows. Anyway it was decided to do it as a presentation. The pictures showing the damages would help a lot in explaining it. Of course, them alone would not be enough. But nor would just describing it be! 21:56:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:56:49 "nor" is incorrect 21:56:54 you mean "neither" 21:56:59 ehird, ah indeed 21:57:46 * pikhq should create a programming language with the NOR operator as the only boolean operator. :p 21:57:55 NAND would be worse 21:57:59 actually, I think "nor" might be correct there too 21:58:02 and NAND is actually more common 21:58:14 due to being slightly cheaper to make with standard transistors 21:58:28 how comes you often see comments just before end of line in LaTeX btw? 21:58:29 yeah, that's a good point 21:58:29 like: 21:58:33 IIRC, I'm not quite sure 21:58:33 \begin{flushleft}\includegraphics[% 21:58:33 width=1.0\columnwidth]{img/sgrass.base.111.eps}\end{flushleft} 21:58:44 line continuation? 21:58:55 ehird, thought of that. But it doesn't seem to make any difference if I remove it though 21:59:02 at least not in this case 21:59:03 for humans then 21:59:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:59:19 ehird, that seems even stranger 22:00:57 * AnMaster wonders if it is possible to write C with no spaces or newlines apart from what is needed for #include at the top 22:01:13 and not using /**/ to do it 22:01:23 with /**/ it is easy 22:01:47 If you use only integers. 22:01:52 main(){a,b,c;} is legal C. 22:02:02 return? 22:02:12 return(x); is legal. 22:02:14 Not legal C99 though. 22:02:19 Deewiant, what? 22:02:27 return(x) isn't legal C99? 22:02:31 a,b,c; 22:02:34 no, main() isn't legal C99 22:02:38 a,b,c; is legal C99 22:02:40 true 22:02:49 hm 22:02:50 ais523: Other way around. 22:02:51 and falling off main is defined in C99 to have an implied return 0 22:03:00 Deewiant: main() isn't, int main() is 22:03:06 C99 removed implicit int 22:03:12 ais523: GCC, at least, accepts main(). 22:03:18 But not {a,b,c;} 22:03:18 a,b,c is illegal if a,b,c aren't defined higher up the file, though 22:03:31 I didn't say it was valid C99. 22:03:34 100% valid C89. 22:03:35 but I was just looking at the one line 22:03:39 And idiomatic K&R C. 22:03:42 any way you can do it with other vars than int? 22:03:50 yes, you can define function pointer vars 22:03:53 Oh, also pointers. 22:03:56 pikhq: GCC doesn't accept those declarations, FWIW. 22:03:57 hm true 22:04:01 but apart from that 22:04:04 yes 22:04:04 you're right, those would probably be more useful than function pointers 22:04:11 pikhq: At global scope, but not at function scope. 22:04:15 Deewiant: Hmm. Oh, right. It does for global vars, I think. 22:04:16 you could do arithmetic on NULL+integer 22:04:21 And as parameters, of course. 22:04:24 int*a; would be valid right? 22:04:30 it would be undefined, but would mostly work in practice 22:04:30 Yep. 22:04:32 Perfectly. 22:04:34 and yes, int*a is valid 22:04:36 And that works, of course. 22:04:45 int*a=malloc(sizeof(int)); 22:04:46 although you'd probably want to use char* 22:04:47 And use that :-P 22:04:55 ooh, good point 22:04:58 you can use *a, not just a 22:04:58 ... God, you could do int*a=malloc(sizeof(int));*a=x;XD 22:05:11 pikhq, *x proably 22:05:12 but how are you going to define malloc? 22:05:24 #include doesn't work 22:05:25 Alternatively, int*a; and then cast it to an integer type all the time 22:05:27 ais523, "apart from standard includes at top" I said 22:05:30 ais523: AnMaster allowed #includes 22:05:32 ais523: #include 22:05:34 oh 22:05:37 ehird, that is valid? 22:05:40 well, you can write void*malloc(size_t); 22:05:41 yes 22:05:43 But even if you don't allow them, you can declare it 22:05:44 without any whitespace 22:05:44 ais523, GCC will just complain about the implicit declaration. 22:05:46 Exactly. 22:05:51 ais523, what about defining size_t then 22:05:52 :P 22:05:57 it is in stddef.h iirc 22:05:57 And yes, you can do the declaration anyways. 22:06:03 AnMaster: oh, good point 22:06:12 you'd have to guess how big a size_t was, and put that type in there instead 22:06:18 in fact, you'd have to hope it was unsigned int 22:06:21 ais523, unsigned long wouldn't work 22:06:23 because the other possible types contain spaces 22:06:31 hm 22:06:45 AnMaster: Yes it would. It's 32-bit on x86_32 and 64-bit on x86_64. 22:06:55 pikhq, the space... 22:06:56 (IIRC) 22:06:56 but 22:07:09 Oh. *Unsigned* long. 22:07:11 XD 22:07:11 size_t tends, in practice, to be as big as a pointer 22:07:12 I think plain long would work if you made sure to only do small allocations 22:07:13 :) 22:07:25 :D 22:07:30 well probably undef 22:07:36 but would work in practise 22:08:00 No structs or typedefs or unions. 22:08:28 pikhq, just use int*structs_a; 22:08:31 int*structs_b; 22:08:33 and so on 22:08:36 for each field 22:08:45 Right. 22:08:45 dudes 22:08:49 yes it would be split over several arrays 22:08:51 just use arrays somehow 22:08:54 instead of malloc 22:08:58 ehird, see above ^ 22:09:00 like int*x={0} 22:09:06 ehird, what 22:09:14 that wouldn't work? 22:09:19 it was an example 22:09:23 ehird: That wouldn't work. 22:09:38 because the array isn't allocated anywhere 22:09:48 it was an example 22:09:48 it was an example 22:09:49 it was an example 22:09:55 um 22:09:57 It was a crap example. 22:09:57 i meant "basic idea, make it work" 22:10:00 what about a working example 22:10:22 since I suspect it can't work, apart from for integer variables in the array in C89 22:11:06 Actually, it just *might* work, so long as that pointer never, ever leaves the function scope. 22:11:18 anyway structs split over several malloced arrays would work fine, it would even be in line with current trends, stream processing stuff and such. Unit stride. Buzz words. 22:11:42 pikhq, I don't think it would compile 22:12:20 AnMaster: A lot of weird shit compiles. 22:12:47 * Sgeo sends 10 ultraviolent norns through the warp 22:13:22 Maybe I should make them unrejectable, for extra fun! 22:14:28 So far, Hinco hasn't rejected any of my norns, as far as I can tell 22:14:36 Ok, Hinco rejected a norn 22:15:03 Hinco? 22:15:09 Some random DS user 22:15:53 Gah, when I send a rejected norn through, it keeps being sent to the user who rejected him 22:17:29 Hm? 22:17:59 time to go home, I think 22:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:11 Sgeo, does this game exist in a single player edition? 22:20:12 * Sgeo vaguly wonders if his norns are causing death around the Warp 22:20:23 AnMaster, well, you don't have to go online >.> 22:20:31 What game is it? 22:20:37 and ehird said it was freeware for linux? hm 22:20:38 link? 22:20:41 Docking Station, part of the Creatures series 22:21:35 brb 22:21:58 http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=448_0_8_0_M13 for Linux 22:22:16 You'll need to patch some script with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff 22:22:40 naming suggestions (ehird is banned after previous bad suggestion): BF-to-C compiler written in Scheme, will be slightly optimising, but nothing fancy. Previous idea was SFUCK (as a joke on BF and S-Expressions), but I want some SFW name. 22:23:04 SUCK 22:23:16 Deewiant, that sounds like a sexual joke again :P 22:23:31 To me it just sounds like it sucks 22:24:01 What was ehird's suggestion? 22:24:20 Not PFUCK. 22:24:24 Sgeo, something like "thisappwillbehorrible", don't remember exactly 22:24:31 Including the period. 22:24:34 pikhq, and I'm not going for that 22:24:48 "SFW" remember 22:24:59 Bah. 22:25:20 PathBF? BFScale? 22:25:26 Sounds enterprisy! 22:25:35 or OpenBF maybe 22:25:50 hm 22:26:51 BF is short for BlueFang clearly, which is a pun on BlueTooth. Meaning it should be called RedEar? 22:26:59 22:28:06 actually, I'll call it "after", since my other bf-to-c compiler was called "before" 22:30:21 * AnMaster throws a dice for which DVCS to use. 1 = bzr, 2 = darcs, 3 = hg, other values = rethrow. 22:30:25 hm.. 22:30:33 6... rethrow. 22:30:50 -!- nooga has joined. 22:30:51 1 bzr. :) 22:30:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T41ZRw45obs rotfl 22:31:03 I was worried I would end up with darcs 22:31:58 nooga, tl;dd; 22:32:05 (to lazy, didn't download) 22:32:11 and no flash 22:32:14 so what is it about 22:32:54 AnMaster: "12 months" in estonian sounds like "cock tastes good" in english. 22:32:57 ~fin~ 22:33:07 oh my 22:33:28 I had to ponder that for over 10 minutes when I saw it on reddit, thinking what the hell the point was 22:33:29 "kaksteist kuud" 22:33:39 It helps that it sounds almost the same in Finnish 22:34:12 ehird, to me it didn't sound like the English one. More like kaksties qood 22:34:22 Because you're not English. :P 22:34:25 ehird, true 22:34:37 Yeah, only English can mangle other languages so successfully 22:34:42 haha 22:34:44 At first, I thought they'd been the subject of a prank 22:34:45 as in 22:34:49 the girls didn't know estonian 22:34:53 but had been told that translation or something 22:35:00 it took translating it myself to realise it was pronounciation 22:35:42 I think I'm going to send some superbreeders through 22:36:20 Sgeo, go play SL. And spam that instead. It was less bad. 22:36:32 AnMaster: I prefer the Creatures talk. 22:36:41 Mostly because I've tortured my fair share of norn in my time. 22:36:48 Sgeo, or even better. Go play nethack 22:36:55 that will be interesting 22:37:01 ITT: AnMaster orders people around and tells them what they enjoy 22:37:17 ehird, no, I just find this completely irrelevant to the channel ;P 22:37:26 Like 99% of talk in here. 22:37:28 Sgeo, tell me about PSOX instead! 22:37:38 ehird, only when you are active 22:37:55 No, that's simply false. 22:38:00 I do read the logs, you know. 22:38:23 ehird, statistics please 22:38:29 No thanks 22:38:37 showing the off-topicness 22:39:11 Unfortunately I don't have a strong AI to filter those 22:39:27 ehird, your brain should be quite adequate I hope 22:39:53 * AnMaster tries to remember how to do file IO in scheme! 22:40:04 AnMaster: i'm not going to manually filter logs. 22:40:07 and lern2R5RS. 22:40:13 It's less than 50 pages! 22:40:17 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 22:40:20 ehird, I know 22:40:24 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6 22:40:25 I just didn't remember how 22:40:27 library procedure: (call-with-input-file string proc) 22:40:28 library procedure: (call-with-output-file string proc) 22:40:29 and 22:40:39 and 22:40:40 optional procedure: (with-input-from-file string thunk) 22:40:40 optional procedure: (with-output-to-file string thunk) 22:40:42 so 22:40:42 ... 22:40:46 that wasn't it 22:40:49 (with-input-from-file "foo" (lambda (s) (display s))) 22:40:50 is cat 22:40:54 ehird, yes 22:41:22 ehird, no it isn't, cat is "concatenate", meaning the point of cat is that it takes several files. 22:41:24 ;P 22:41:33 AnMaster: Read esolang wiki. 22:41:36 anyway mzscheme/drscheme 22:41:39 what do you think about it 22:41:40 Our official definition of cat is copying input to output. 22:41:49 Also, they're acceptable. 22:41:52 ehird, I'm using the POSIX definition 22:41:57 They deviate a bit too much from R5RS for my tastes. 22:41:59 ehird, do you find any other implementation better? 22:42:02 AHAHAHAHA 22:42:04 If you use the R5RS language, it's better. 22:42:16 AnMaster: it depends. There is a gigantic variety, and none are perfect. 22:42:33 This person must have left the door open.. they sent me my norns back in such a way that I can, without modifying anything, force them to accept it 22:42:38 ehird, of course none is perfect. But which one is best. 22:42:51 And it seems mzscheme defaults to R6RS. 22:43:02 Well, slap it then and tell it to use R5RS. 22:43:27 AnMaster: The best is probably Chez Scheme, but it's proprietary and $$$. (Chez Scheme Lite is freeware). Gambit is fast, Gauche has a lot of non-R5RS scripting-related tools. Guile is shit. MIT/GNU Scheme is *VERY* R5RS-compliant, but supports little else. (I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS). 22:43:48 Scheme 48 is quite popular and R5RS-compliant, iirc. I have used it a bit and it is quite nice. 22:43:57 hm 22:43:58 http://s48.org/ 22:44:03 Probably a good bet. 22:44:07 "(I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS)." <-- why do you care? 22:44:20 AnMaster: I mean, I'd prefer that implementation if I'm just writing R5RS 22:44:26 That's what that usage means 22:44:39 OTOH, I do recommend writing R5RS :-P 22:45:09 afk 22:45:14 ehird's recommended Scheme development environment: Scheme 48 (http://s48.org/) + Emacs + quack.el (http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/) 22:45:16 and a copy of R5RS. 22:45:29 quack.el is invaluable; just remember to set its fontify style to 'emacs in your .emacs 22:45:45 and the implementation executable nam 22:45:45 e 22:46:29 AnMaster: If you just want to develop something Real Quick(TM), DrScheme (the "IDE") in R5RS mode + a copy of the standard works too. 22:46:36 hm 22:46:54 ehird, atm I just want to get a basic such compiler working 22:47:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 22:47:14 Well, if you want something I'd recommend for R5RS work, install Scheme 48. Your package manager has it. 22:47:21 (that's not even a conditional. It has it :-P) 22:47:36 It's been under development since 1987, IIRC. 22:47:39 and I dislike the indention style used in DrScheme :( 22:47:41 It's a bytecode compiler/interpreter 22:47:44 AnMaster: Use Quack. Srsly. 22:47:51 Although it uses much the same style. 22:47:51 ehird, hm ok 22:47:58 The indentation of Scheme code is a subtle art. It takes getting used to. 22:48:02 But it pays off. 22:48:03 * AnMaster emerges app-emacs/quack 22:48:06 Ah: 22:48:07 The name ‘Scheme 48’ commemorates our having written the original version in forty-eight hours, on August 6th and 7th, 1986. 22:48:13 AnMaster: and scheme48 :-P 22:48:33 ehird, is 1.8 last version of that? 22:48:41 yes 22:48:50 well, it's over a year old, but it is the latest version 22:49:09 0.30 of quack? 22:49:22 0.35, but it doesn't matter. 22:49:25 mhm 22:49:32 AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. 22:49:48 * AnMaster files a post-it note to the edge of his monitor to file a bug about the quack package being outdated 22:50:19 AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. <-- guile had a VERY good line editing REPL, with highlighting of matching () too 22:50:20 ;P 22:50:23 * AnMaster runs 22:50:33 (require 'quack) 22:50:33 (setq quack-fontify-style 'emacs) 22:50:34 (setq quack-default-program "scheme48") 22:50:36 (setq quack-run-scheme-always-prompts-p nil) 22:50:38 AnMaster: ↑ how to set up quack in .emacs 22:50:46 what does the last one do 22:50:49 and Guile doesn't even get continuations right! 22:50:55 AnMaster: Doesn't ask you what scheme impl you want to start every single time. 22:51:07 Anyway, after doing that, open a .scm and type C-c C-l 22:51:12 the window will split into your file and a REPL. 22:51:30 From there... well... M-x quack- and see what it can do :-P 22:51:32 ehird, C-c C-l? :/ 22:51:37 I have that bound to other things 22:51:37 AnMaster: aka "load-file" 22:51:41 hmm 22:51:48 not going to change! 22:51:55 AnMaster: All Lisp modes use it. 22:52:15 ehird, um no? I tried the elisp mode just now 22:52:27 The elisp mode isn't much of a mode. 22:52:31 Since it works nothing like most Lisps. 22:52:48 true 22:53:16 checked in default scheme mode toop 22:53:17 too* 22:53:21 hmm 22:53:25 maybe I misremember 22:53:31 just ask emacs what quack-load-file or whatever is bound to 22:53:38 quack isn't installed yet 22:53:43 when you do so. 22:53:51 The nice thing about emacs/quack is that printf-debugging becomes really hard: you have to switch to a terminal, get the command to do it, and run it. 22:53:58 Whereas trying in the repl is just a few keys. 22:54:33 ehird, which is worst: Guile or R6RS? 22:54:48 They're both awful in entirely different ways. 22:54:58 ok 22:55:07 They can be both as terribly awful as each other and live separate, peaceful lives of hate and rage. 22:55:30 someone should implement R6RS in guile 22:55:33 just to annoy you 22:55:51 They shall die. 22:56:07 ehird, you have contacts in the maffia? 22:56:19 No. I have contacts in the maffffffffffffffffffffffffffffia though. 22:56:26 ehird, what 22:56:30 IDGI 22:56:52 "maffia" 22:56:58 yes? 22:57:03 isn't that the spelling in Englush 22:57:06 English* 22:57:37 oh it isn't 22:57:43 ehird, it is two f in Swedish 22:57:46 easy mistake to make 22:58:09 We are being targeted by the mafffffffffffffffffffffffff(3 minutes of f)fffia. 22:59:02 I can't even imagine how you thought that would be a joke. It can't be anything else though 22:59:40 It is not a joke as such. It is just an amusing image. 23:00:54 ehird, image? 23:00:58 it is a line of text 23:01:06 Mental. Image. 23:01:13 oh. those. 23:03:01 POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4564: watercool a 386. 23:03:38 POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4563: make a 386 that needs watercooling. 23:03:44 :D 23:03:47 That would be some terrible 386. 23:03:53 um 23:04:02 what about massive SMP with 386 23:04:07 like 23:04:08 386 386s 23:04:10 :-) 23:04:11 a cluster of them 23:04:12 No, it would be a 386 with some incredible clock speeds. 23:04:23 A cluster of three hundred and eighty-six 386s. 23:04:25 ehird, no no. at least a thousand of them 23:04:29 Running at 386MHz each. 23:04:33 A 386 at 3GHz would probably need some ridiculous cooling. 23:04:33 ;) 23:04:39 3.86GHz. 23:04:47 386 386s @ 3.86GHz 23:04:58 wait 23:05:01 that wouldn't work 23:05:07 Whyever not? 23:05:11 where would you fit the 387 co-processors 23:05:14 there would be no space left 23:05:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 23:05:17 Hammerspace. 23:05:38 You'd have 387 of them. 23:05:46 ehird, heuristics detected popular culture reference. Not found in database. 23:05:49 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace 23:05:54 no 23:05:56 (MWAHAHA!) 23:06:00 I'm not clicking tvtroupe links 23:06:04 I'm just not 23:06:06 AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace | w3m -dump 23:06:10 | $EDITOR 23:06:12 problem solved 23:06:15 ehird, um? 23:06:21 w3m -dump erases links :-) 23:06:27 err, not -dump 23:06:28 lynx -dump 23:06:32 oh, wait 23:06:33 no 23:06:35 w3m -dump 23:06:37 but you need to do 23:06:39 w3m -dump /dev/stdin 23:06:40 I think 23:06:57 AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace>x&& w3m -dump x|$EDITOR 23:07:07 er 23:07:09 that doesn't work either 23:07:10 that displays html just 23:07:11 you get the idea 23:07:13 ... 23:07:20 ohh 23:07:21 here 23:07:26 AnMaster: w3m -dump http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace|$EDITOR 23:07:50 ehird, tried it? 23:07:53 yep. 23:07:57 since that is hilariously bad 23:08:03 no it's not 23:08:07 everything in a thin column at the middle 23:08:07 ... 23:08:09 the text column is just a little small 23:08:13 it's still perfectly readable 23:08:20 AnMaster: M-q 23:08:24 or whatever the emacs command is to reformat 23:08:33 lynx -dump is more readable 23:08:34 and 23:08:36 I'm using less 23:08:56 Do whatever :P 23:09:14 ehird, define:whatever in this context 23:09:25 whatever=anything you want, except less enthusiastic 23:10:18 I wonder how quiet modern watercooled systems are. 23:11:07 "In April 2008, Cray and Intel announced they would collaborate on future supercomputer systems. The first product from this collaboration, the Cray CX1, was launched in September the same year. This is a blade server system, comprising up to 16 dual- or quad-core Intel Xeon processors, with either Microsoft Windows HPC Server 2008 or Red Hat Enterprise Linux installed. " 23:11:11 THAT's a super-computer? 23:11:22 32 cores of a regular server processor. Woop de doo. 23:12:41 pikhq: share in my outraeg. 23:12:43 That's two of our silly all-the-money build. 23:12:44 *outrage 23:12:51 ;) 23:12:57 also, that's cuz we weren't optimizing for processors :P 23:13:04 Right. 23:13:04 but seriously, it only costs $10k too 23:13:08 i checked 23:13:12 ridiculous 23:13:15 Still, we had 8 chips in the damn thing. 23:13:21 it's just a high end number-cruncher 23:13:50 A supercomputer is more than 4U. 23:13:51 :p 23:14:16 I mean, jeeze. That's 16 freaking *blades*. 23:14:32 That's a single blade chassis! 23:14:36 sheesh, this supercomputer thing is crap 23:14:43 it's just a bunch of regular Xeon machines stuck together 23:14:46 Sure, it's pricy stuff, but a supercomputer? 23:15:02 That's a low-to-midrange cluster, I guess... 23:15:19 Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links? 23:15:22 Too addictive? 23:15:24 AnHammer. 23:15:37 AnMaster: /nick plz 23:15:46 ehird, ? 23:15:53 23:15 Sgeo: Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links? 23:15:54 23:15 ehird: AnHammer. 23:16:19 ehird, not going to change to that nick. And you can take it if you want. I don't care. 23:16:26 :-P 23:16:28 just going to confuse tab completion for everyone else 23:16:29 Grouchy! 23:16:35 define:Grouchy 23:17:03 ... 23:17:05 Too addictive? <-- help help I'm held prisoner in a wiki about tv troupes 23:17:05 SRSLY? 23:17:10 ehird, yes 23:17:14 Wooooooooow. 23:19:05 kakteists kood 23:19:41 ehird, tell me what it means then 23:19:47 Look it up. 23:19:49 :P 23:20:02 crabbed: annoyed and irritable 23:20:02 wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 23:20:02 wassup? 23:20:03 ok 23:20:24 ehird, why would it be odd not to know it? 23:20:36 for a non-native 23:20:37 It's like the most commenest word ever :P 23:20:41 *commonest 23:20:50 ehird, um. I think "a" or possibly "an" is in English 23:20:55 <_< 23:20:56 "the" is also very common 23:21:03 so is "and" iirc 23:21:16 I don't have a word frequency table for English handly 23:21:19 handy* 23:21:20 atm 23:23:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:25:16 no 23:25:25 funny thing 23:25:56 polish 'no' = english 'yep' 23:26:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:33:26 I think we should start making other languages look bad. Brainfuck has too long been the standard for "this language is as readable as X!" 23:33:36 We must create new horrific things to make mainstream languages look bad :-) 23:33:56 As it just so happens, Brainfuck is a poor language for such comparisons. 23:34:07 Brainfuck is relatively legible. 23:35:33 malbolge, on the other hand. 23:36:05 Yeah... 23:36:11 Appropriate name. 23:37:18 whitespace is kind of hard to read, too, without a syntax highlighter... 23:46:20 Asztal: how goes your bef int? 23:46:41 haven't touched it in months :) 23:47:10 I'm quite happy to be avoiding C++, really 23:47:13 Asztal: I wasn't asking about your mother 23:47:19 dammit why did you have to get that line in 23:51:48 I always get it in 23:53:07 lawk 23:53:09 lawl 23:56:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_API anyone remember this 23:56:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:56:48 goddamn, Voodoo cards. 23:56:52 those things sucked :) 23:56:53 hi bsmntbombdood 23:56:59 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest.PNG 23:57:20 hi 23:57:28 bsmntbombdood: those components arrived? 23:57:39 lol no 23:58:00 wednesday 23:58:22 Just killed them all 23:58:29 bsmntbombdood: what OS you sticking on it? 23:58:31 Hahaha at the gravestones rolling across the screen 23:58:52 dunno yet 23:59:07 bsmntbombdood: I'd go for a linux distro due to the lvm ssd shit 23:59:26 meh, not worth it 23:59:34 bsmntbombdood: sure it is 23:59:38 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest_dead.PNG 23:59:59 bsmntbombdood: compared to the fragmented table that the SSD will do instead...