00:01:12 lifthrasiir, so any idea about the sysinfo one 00:01:43 it pushed <93, 43>. 00:02:00 lifthrasiir, sure that is wrong? 00:02:23 and if so, what did you do differently from mycology 00:04:50 wait, i could misinterpret the spec 00:06:00 i thought that "the least point which contains a non-space cell" and "the greatest point which contains a non-space cell" means a boundary of smallest rectangle containing every non-space cells 00:06:19 lifthrasiir, it is relative the least point 00:06:25 if that is the issue 00:07:00 I track absolute coordinates internally (for wrapping, which is more common than y). And diff then at y 00:07:20 wait 00:07:28 it was a build without exact bounds 00:07:30 and then <1,27> is leftmost, <92,25> is rightmost, <2,0> is topmost and <83,42> is bottommost; the least point within rectangle is <1,0> and the greatest point is <92,42> (which offset is <91,42> wrt least point) 00:07:31 * AnMaster tries again 00:07:52 with exact bounds I get the same message 00:08:25 i think you are pushing the past-to-the-greatest point, not the greatest point within the rectangle 00:08:48 lifthrasiir, err what? You mean I'm doing absolute coordinates instead of relative ones? 00:08:57 no 00:09:01 then what 00:09:32 "past-to-the-greatest" 00:09:38 what do you mean with that 00:09:56 for example, assume that the rectangle bounds the code is 7 columns wide and 3 rows high; what i mean is you are pushing and , not and 00:10:05 since is not in the rectangle 00:10:29 lifthrasiir, why do I get correct results in mycology then? 00:10:32 but i'm not sure, cfunge passed mycology and it can be other issues 00:10:40 that is strange. 00:10:52 maybe off by one error somewhere? 00:11:21 actually no 00:11:24 i assumed it, but then it should be appeared conditionally, which is quite hard to achieve i think 00:11:28 it was off by more than that wasn't it? 00:12:10 oh well, yes, it is off by _two_ in x coordinate 00:12:19 lifthrasiir, mycology writes to -1 too. 00:12:22 hm 00:13:37 I used to have conditional off by one errors ages ago. Dependant on mycology writing to -1,-1. But that was fixed. 00:14:09 but it pushed correct least point... cannot think of possible causes 00:14:24 nor can I 00:16:34 lifthrasiir, err 00:16:40 there are more than 42 lines in it 00:16:48 what? 00:16:58 but the last line is newline, so that doesn't matter 00:17:03 yes 00:17:03 empty* 00:17:04 but even so 00:17:11 that's line 43 00:17:11 15:10:20 yes it was. Sad thing is it spread outside kernel development. 00:17:17 Goddamn you're an idiot. 00:17:21 Hey, he agrees. 00:17:30 lifthrasiir, ah, wait 0,0 00:17:38 so no doesn't explain it 00:18:17 lifthrasiir, however editor says there are 93 columns. Meaning 92 when 0-based 00:18:37 lifthrasiir, so not sure where you got 91 from+ 00:18:47 oh right. spaces in first one too 00:18:48 duh 00:18:51 since the least point is <1,0>. 00:18:58 * AnMaster goes dump bounds in gdb 00:20:20 $1 = {topLeftCorner = {x = 1, y = 0}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 92, y = 42}, entries = 0x2039010, col_count = 0x2039050, row_count = 0x2039090, 00:20:20 boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true} 00:20:29 lifthrasiir, that is absolute values 00:20:35 seems right to you? 00:20:42 yes 00:20:50 that is right 00:20:59 then y pushes wrong I guess. 00:21:35 *blink* 00:21:56 // +1 because it is inclusive. 00:21:56 rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1; 00:21:57 rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1; 00:22:01 no not there 00:22:07 I meant in sysinfo.c 00:22:18 lifthrasiir, but that +1 is correct iirc. 00:22:23 of course sysinfo.c should be wrong, anyway 00:22:35 stack_push(pushStack, rect.x+rect.w); 00:22:35 what 00:22:43 what 00:22:48 indeed 00:23:07 it should be rect.w 00:23:11 not x+w 00:23:14 right 00:23:34 but it should be rect.w-1, imo 00:23:44 lifthrasiir, why? 00:23:50 should return inclusive bounds 00:23:53 hm 00:24:04 but fungespace_get_bounds_rect returns width and height 00:24:34 what about the +1 then um 00:24:34 so is exclusive bound, and is inclusive bound 00:24:51 and clearly fspace.bottomRightCorner IS inclusive 00:25:35 hm 00:25:47 if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.x < position->x) 00:25:47 fspace.bottomRightCorner.x = position->x; 00:25:48 and 00:25:54 if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.y < position->y) 00:25:54 fspace.bottomRightCorner.y = position->y; 00:25:55 yes 00:26:31 lifthrasiir, that is true. it is the bounding box 00:26:42 it isn't the position of the spaces around 00:26:51 so it pushed exclusive bounds AND absolute coordinates. in fact there were two bugs ;) 00:26:54 s/box/rect/ 00:27:17 lifthrasiir, no, not absolute ones. It pushed something else instead. 00:27:22 wait no 00:28:32 lifthrasiir, removing the +1 and fixing the other bit helped indeed. 00:28:47 lifthrasiir, so this managed to be right for mycology because it wrote to -1 right? 00:28:53 yes. 00:29:05 Deewiant should really use -2,-2 00:29:07 or something 00:29:26 maybe i'll use <-3,-5> 00:29:38 anyway x and y should be different, for stupid cases 00:29:38 that would be even better 00:30:13 fixed in last revision. 00:31:18 and now fungus works too 00:31:31 it just hung before when using fungy/fungi 00:31:47 and I was unable to figure out why 00:32:13 maybe i should make sysinfo.b98 prints actual printed value. 00:32:19 maybe 00:32:21 actual pushed value* 00:32:31 lifthrasiir, that is what is missing in mycology a lot of the time 00:32:50 mycology is too huge, which means tracing is a lot harder 00:33:00 lifthrasiir, I don't know for python. But at least C is quite easy to get it with, with gdb 00:33:22 lifthrasiir, "too huge"? 00:33:30 but yes 00:33:36 yes it is hard to trace 00:33:43 especially in the concurrent sections. 00:33:50 so if you get some BAD, how to get near to the problematic commands? 00:34:30 lifthrasiir, well I search for the string, both reversed and not reversed to find out x,y coordinates. 00:35:02 but sometimes the string is placed vertically, or even splitted ;) 00:35:05 then use brkcell defined in .gdbinit 00:35:16 lifthrasiir, for split, search for one word 00:35:17 or such 00:35:24 vertically is hard indeed 00:35:29 then I usually poke Deewiant 00:35:38 ha, that is good 00:35:57 lifthrasiir, unless it is possible to find anyway, I know how the fingerprints are located 00:36:04 and I'm way past core bugs nowdays. 00:36:06 usually 00:36:22 new fingerprints tend to be where the problem is 00:36:54 define brkcell 00:36:54 break execute_instruction if (ip->position.x == $arg0) && (ip->position.y == $arg1) 00:36:54 end 00:36:55 btw 00:37:01 cfunge isn't a different /language/, right? The command shouldn't be "cfunge" then 00:37:08 It should be ... befunge98? 00:37:16 GregorR, Yes. 00:37:22 you said that however? 00:37:31 maybe I misunderstood you 00:37:35 AnMaster: To clarify, interps/, hcmds/ 00:37:56 GregorR, aha. Can you fix it yourself or should I submit a bundle with a move and commit in as well? 00:37:59 AnMaster: that is same to what i'm doing for pyfunge, but i think clearly separated test makes the debugging convenient 00:38:06 lifthrasiir, yes 00:38:11 AnMaster: I'm fixing. 00:38:25 GregorR, also you want to update cfunge to last revision. Fixed a bug in y 00:38:30 two files changed 00:38:50 and Deewiant will add that to his to-do list 00:38:52 I can make a patch 00:39:01 lifthrasiir, add what? 00:39:03 AnMaster: Patch pweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 00:39:25 AnMaster: "change negative coordinate test to -3 -2", for example 00:39:30 ah 00:39:32 !help 00:39:32 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 00:40:38 Example file? 00:40:52 !befunge98 <@,kda"Hello world!" 00:41:07 wait, it should be kca 00:41:09 Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work. 00:41:19 !befunge98 123...@ 00:41:24 !befunge 123...@ 00:41:25 3 2 1 00:41:32 it seems not working at all 00:41:38 Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work. 00:41:55 !befunge98 123...@ 00:41:55 3 2 1 00:42:07 GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/r763.diff 00:42:11 There ya go. Enjoy your fungi goodiness. 00:42:16 that is on the cfunge source itself 00:42:32 !befunge98 <@,kca"Hello world!" 00:42:39 lifthrasiir, strange 00:42:42 I tested it and it worked 00:42:45 before 00:42:59 !befunge98 123...@ 00:42:59 egobot queries. is that intended? 00:43:00 3 2 1 00:43:06 lifthrasiir, not that I know 00:43:18 lifthrasiir, maybe with newline 00:43:29 ah, okay 00:43:34 To avoid flooding the channel, the 2nd line and further are sent to you personally. 00:43:34 !befunge98 <@,kb"Hello world!" 00:43:35 Hello world! 00:43:35 !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!" 00:43:36 Hello world! 00:43:41 So a program will only output one line here. 00:43:46 i got it. 00:43:47 ah 00:43:52 Aaaaw. 00:43:58 !befunge98 tA 00:43:58 pikhq, what 00:44:04 !befunge98 t3.A 00:44:07 um 00:44:10 Not even doing rate-based antiflooding? 00:44:12 I think he set up resource limit 00:44:15 limits* 00:44:22 so you would hit 32 MB soon 00:44:25 and then quit 00:44:27 That'd really screw up, say, daemons. 00:44:35 or at least quit after 30 seconds 00:44:41 pikhq, they are limited to 30 seconds 00:44:48 so that doesn't even apply. 00:44:50 Double-aaaaw. 00:45:09 I will probably add support for daemons again some time. 00:45:23 !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!" 00:45:23 Hello world! 00:45:31 AnMaster: Patch seems to work. 00:45:38 pikhq: join my campaign for old egobot! 00:45:46 GregorR, it should. 00:45:50 .......... wtf. 00:45:54 (@ehird) 00:46:00 GregorR, you need to update the USED_VERSION 00:46:03 GregorR: We! Want! Real! Egobot! 00:46:07 AnMaster: I did. 00:46:12 !befunge98 7y.@ 00:46:12 2 00:46:13 good 00:46:16 We! Are! Great! Avocados! 00:46:17 :) 00:46:27 lifthrasiir, 7? 00:46:29 which one is that 00:46:33 AnMaster: number of dimension. 00:46:35 !befunge98 1y.@ 00:46:35 1 00:46:45 GregorR, did you watch the configure output btw? 00:46:50 I'm not in favor of the old Egobot. 00:46:52 of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p 00:46:59 GregorR, if so: any comments? 00:47:00 AnMaster: Not really. 00:47:01 pikhq: Well you should be. 00:47:03 meh 00:47:04 I'm in favor of the new Egobot achieving feature parity with old Egobot. 00:47:04 :/ 00:47:05 ;) 00:47:07 AnMaster: Not really in that I didn't watch it. 00:47:18 (except for the crashing "feature") 00:47:20 GregorR, it checks lots of -W flags for GCC 00:47:33 :P 00:47:52 I think it gave ehird an heart attach 00:47:55 attack* 00:47:59 for using -Wwrite-strings 00:48:05 * GregorR attaches to ehird's heart. 00:48:07 Nom nom nom 00:48:12 ... 00:48:13 Sexy. 00:48:27 ... GCC lets you write to strings? 00:48:37 of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p <-- it can do urls too 00:48:38 so 00:48:40 lets try it 00:48:40 pikhq: That's correct (although bad) C. 00:48:41 It lets you write to freaking const char *'s? 00:48:45 * AnMaster puts up mycology 00:48:51 GregorR: I thought in C99, they were const. 00:48:54 pikhq: No, it doesn't let you write to const char * 00:49:17 pikhq: Think of this situation: You have a global char *stringbuffer = "foobarf"; 00:49:21 Then you change that in place. 00:49:26 AnMaster: pack mycology in one line, along with the small unpacker code which puts mycology and removes itself 00:49:27 that crashes 00:49:29 GregorR, ^ 00:49:40 point is you don't get a warning without -Wwrite-strings 00:49:55 SO'S YOUR FACE 00:50:20 GregorR, what was the url syntax 00:50:23 I forgot 00:50:27 ........ a URL :P 00:50:27 just? !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:50:30 Yeah 00:50:42 GregorR, how do you write a befunge program that is also a valid url then 00:50:43 ... 00:50:47 -!- oklofog has joined. 00:50:50 anyone here? 00:50:52 that is quite possible 00:50:53 so it starts with h, which reflects in befunge-98? 00:51:06 lifthrasiir, yes used for g too 00:51:14 to combine something to get from 00:51:16 and reflect 00:51:19 golfing 00:51:32 lifthrasiir, I wrote g@ to output a g once 00:51:33 :P 00:51:37 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:51:44 * AnMaster waits 00:51:47 what 00:51:50 AnMaster: g,@, right? 00:51:52 shouldn't something happen 00:51:56 lifthrasiir, err yeah 00:52:17 GregorR, can you tell me why that didn't do anything 00:52:28 !help 00:52:32 .. 00:52:35 if SOCK is enabled i'll implement HTTP client in befunge. 00:52:41 I think GregorR timed out 00:52:45 or we have a netsplit 00:52:54 Or he isn't at your beck and call ZOMG 00:53:04 ehird, ? 00:53:17 ehird, read above. 00:53:34 -!- GregorR has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:35 -!- MizardX has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- iano has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:36 -!- comex has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:53:39 see 00:53:40 I told you so 00:53:41 :P 00:54:07 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say he is sorry. 00:54:09 -!- GregorR has joined. 00:54:26 GregorR, wb 00:54:26 AnMaster: Have fun waiting. 00:54:47 -!- iano has joined. 00:54:47 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:54:47 -!- comex has joined. 00:54:58 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:55:22 !help 00:55:26 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 00:55:30 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 00:55:32 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 00:55:35 wtf 00:55:36 oh my 00:55:39 EgoBot? 00:55:46 oklofog, yes 00:55:47 was i gone for so long it's past again 00:55:55 oh my 00:55:58 oklofog, no. It is a new one 00:55:59 it works? 00:56:04 lifthrasiir, it is spamming me with it in /msg yes 00:56:08 slowly 00:56:17 hi EgoBot :) 00:56:49 !befunge98 http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/raw-file/tip/tests/befunge98/sysinfo.b98 00:56:52 lets see how far it gets 00:56:54 lifthrasiir, no! 00:56:57 it is still running 00:57:01 what? 00:57:08 GOOD: y seems work for at least some fields 00:57:12 GOOD: wraparound with non-cardinal delta appears to work 00:57:15 that is how far it got 00:57:21 before killing it 00:57:24 the output 00:57:44 which is quite a bit. 00:57:57 hmm, does egobot have timeout? 00:58:02 yes 00:58:05 30 seconds 00:58:38 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 00:58:41 -!- EgoBot has joined. 00:58:44 wow 00:58:47 how did you do that 00:58:47 Hrm 00:58:56 you just managed excess flood egobot. 00:58:56 ok 00:58:59 congrats. 00:59:01 it is still spamming mycology 00:59:03 to me 00:59:16 then it will excess flood later 00:59:19 Apparently my limiting isn't limity enough :P 00:59:19 it's testing fingerprints now 00:59:42 !befunge98 @Password123@ 00:59:51 ;) 00:59:54 j/k 01:00:18 HOME=/home/egobot 01:00:18 PWD=/home/egobot/egobot/multibot_cmds 01:00:18 PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games 01:00:18 USER=egobot 01:00:18 SHELL=/bin/bash 01:00:19 TERM=screen 01:00:23 interesting 01:00:35 GregorR, it runs in screen? 01:00:52 It doesn't need to, but that's the first way I ran it, so it does now :P 01:00:58 right 01:01:16 * GregorR wurves screen. 01:01:17 GregorR, -S filters that env 01:01:23 to a few "safe" ones 01:01:30 in case anything is missing there 01:01:30 Ah. 01:01:41 what's screen 01:01:46 D-8 01:01:48 oklofog: a drug 01:01:54 oklofog: http://www.google.com/search?q=gnu+screen 01:01:55 GregorR, the list is in src/instructions/sysinfo-misc/safe_env.gperf 01:01:56 it makes you see everything in black and white with things like #(*$&(!&@(* 01:01:56 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:02:01 v. dangerous 01:02:08 GregorR, which is the source file used to generate a perfect hash for it 01:02:09 It's like emacs without a text editor 01:02:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:02:18 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:02:22 X_X 01:02:22 and still spamming me 01:02:27 WTFBBQ 01:02:32 UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 37 as nothing: it reflected 01:02:34 now 01:02:35 coppro: oh so they removed the bad component? 01:02:47 ↑ as funny as perl-is-line-noise jokes 01:02:48 -!- lifthrasiir has left (?). 01:02:48 GregorR, you know how many lines of output mycology generates? 01:02:54 -!- iano has quit. 01:02:57 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 01:03:05 AnMaster: Nope :P 01:03:12 i hate Cmd-W. 01:03:15 Gracenotes, 599 lines here 01:03:19 err 01:03:21 GregorR, ^ 01:03:23 with clean environment 01:03:34 NEW IRC CLIENT NAO, YOUNG MAN 01:03:36 that is a less restricted build 01:03:40 I don't know why it would continue to output ... 01:03:45 ( ゚ -゚) the nerve! 01:03:48 It's /not running/ :P 01:03:50 GregorR, socat buffers it I bet 01:03:51 "Tags: Made Of: XML," —Debian 01:04:00 This is a fontconfig-config sandwich. 01:04:03 It is made of XML. 01:04:16 GregorR, I mean, it finished the output in less than a tenth of a second 01:04:42 GregorR, so you must be buffering it somewhere 01:04:52 it's in FPSP now 01:04:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:04:54 UNDEF: 0"1234.567890"R results in 1234.567871 01:04:56 well 01:04:57 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:05:02 congrats, again ;) 01:05:05 AnMaster: The process that collects the output is itself limited to 30 seconds, and the buffer oughtn't to survive the process quitting X_X 01:05:05 and still going strong 01:05:20 GregorR, let it finish this one time right? 01:05:30 ................... if I didn't just stop it, then OK :P 01:05:36 hmm, i think i've actually used screen. scary. 01:05:41 GregorR, I'll pastebin my /msg log 01:05:47 I promise 01:05:57 hm 01:06:00 once it reaches end 01:06:04 (i used to think it was a basic linux feature which i just didn't have enabled on mine, now i think maybe it was that) 01:06:05 it seems to have made a pause now 01:06:19 !help 01:06:21 or 01:06:23 GregorR: thank you for expanding my horizon 01:06:23 maybe not 01:06:33 Nothing should be able to output right now. 01:06:41 (From EgoBot) 01:06:49 GregorR, not !help either indeed 01:06:51 !help 01:06:57 Nothing should be able to output right now. 01:07:03 GregorR, how comes 01:07:05 why did you stop it 01:07:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:07:08 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:07:16 Because I was tired of it getting dropped :P 01:07:38 Gracenotes, lifthrasiir http://pastebin.ca/1409033 01:08:04 it didn't get to the end 01:08:12 :o 01:08:12 Gracenotes: FYI, a client that tab-completes without reading the mind of the user is not buggy. 01:08:16 err 01:08:18 GregorR, ^ 01:08:39 I'm going to limit it to, say, 15 lines. 01:08:42 Gracenotes, and live with it. I always entered gr. 01:08:42 GregorR: my client tab completes to common prefixes 01:08:44 !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98 01:08:44 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 01:08:50 let me get a complete one 01:08:50 Gracenotes: G R [tab] 01:08:52 this time 01:08:54 GregorR, ^ 01:08:57 ;P 01:09:05 Oy 01:09:16 GregorR, thank you in advance :) 01:09:22 then, G R [tab] [tab]. What have you X>_< 01:09:44 GregorR, um. The pattern is in the fingers 01:09:50 I used it long before you came here 01:09:55 it takes time to re-learn 01:10:03 That was to Gracenotes :P 01:10:03 in a year or so I will get it right I guess 01:10:07 Ironically lawl 01:10:08 ouch 01:10:19 fine, muscle memory, et cetera. But I don't think it's that deeply ingrained 01:10:25 GregorR, so please let it finish this time ok? 01:10:30 AnMaster: Yeahyeah 01:10:31 anyway, I won't bother you if you accidentally ping me :) 01:10:33 Gracenotes: I'm just THAT COOL 01:10:34 continue 01:10:45 Gr ok 01:10:50 haaaaaa 01:11:00 GregorR: Gracenotes GregorR Gracenotes 01:11:45 Gracenotes, I had the same issue with FireFly and fizzie 01:11:51 so it isn't just you 01:12:02 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:12:05 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:12:10 GregorR, you changed the flood limit? 01:12:17 it didn't flood off as quickly this time 01:12:25 AnMaster: I can't change the flood limit, that's determined by Freenode :P 01:12:25 and yes 01:12:29 it is continuing 01:12:32 ( ´_ゝ`) it is me! I am the one to blame 01:12:35 GregorR, well... the rate limit 01:12:35 On Sine there's somebody called Green, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P 01:12:48 Gracenotes, wth is up with those () 01:13:03 oh 01:13:07 wide ones 01:13:12 ( ´_ゝ`) . . o o O O ( ;_; ) 01:13:15 that shouldn't be part of unicode 01:13:16 ... 01:13:23 it is a font issue 01:13:31 not a symbol issue. 01:13:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:13:47 On Sine there's somebody called Green, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P <-- sine? 01:13:58 GOOD: IIDD is zero 01:14:01 still going strong 01:14:02 :) 01:14:03 I've already said too much. 01:14:10 YOU SHALL NOT KNOW THE SINE 01:14:14 GregorR, private network? Ok 01:14:16 Except that said wide parans, unlike the normal ones, are the same width as a Japanese character. 01:14:16 Hi Sgeo :P 01:14:18 fine by me. 01:14:25 I'm on enough of them already. 01:14:28 Hi GregorR 01:14:36 pikhq, that is a font issue. 01:14:46 * Sgeo pokes ehird to tell him that I might have caused people to be interested in PSOX again 01:14:47 Not a separate code point issue 01:14:48 Oh gawd, Sine. 01:14:53 That place was amusing. 01:14:56 ehird, you know of it? 01:14:58 hm ok 01:14:59 AnMaster: Yes. 01:15:05 I went there for a month or two. 01:15:07 Sorry, should specify. Unless there's Roman characters embedded in the Japanese text, in which case normal parens are used. 01:15:10 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I have a great idea! I'll use exponential backoff for the output from commands. 01:15:10 ehird, private irc network? 01:15:13 AnMaster: Yes. 01:15:23 right 01:15:29 Say the word "fuck", get put into a special channel to think about what you've done! We're so private that we came out the other side and became prudes. 01:15:31 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:15:32 GregorR, UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 3 as 1111 01:15:35 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:15:35 still not halfway 01:15:37 :P 01:15:49 01:13 AnMaster: it is a font issue 01:15:49 01:13 AnMaster: not a symbol issue. 01:15:51 expect another 2 or 3 excess floods 01:15:52 Completely incorrect. 01:15:56 ehird, IMO it is. 01:16:02 they are latin chars. 01:16:05 I'm the one who introduced ehird, GregorR, and kerlo to Sine 01:16:11 AnMaster: Please stop showing your cultural ignorance. Thx. 01:16:19 Sgeo is the Sine gatekeeper. 01:16:25 ehird, why not tell me *why* I'm wrong instead. 01:16:25 Sgeo: how large the network is? 01:16:25 lol 01:16:35 Gracenotes: tell AnMaster why he's wrong 01:16:35 how large is the network* 01:16:38 lifthrasiir, there are currently 24 people in the main channel 01:16:39 lifthrasiir: 30-50 people. 01:16:44 ... when I was there 01:16:47 (2007) 01:16:51 hmm, 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint DIRF... not loaded. 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint EVAR... not loaded. 01:16:57 Testing fingerprint FILE... not loaded. 01:17:01 and now it is in FIXP 01:17:01 it's a pretty crap place. 01:17:25 i'm also operating some irc network, which is for koreans of course 01:17:27 AnMaster: Finally, the *actual* reason for Unicode having different code-points for that... 01:17:48 GregorR, you strip space at start of line? 01:17:51 You know Unicode's stance that you should be able to go from old-character-set -> Unicode -> old-character-set? 01:17:57 Yeah, JIS had different code points. 01:18:07 pikhq, I see 01:18:07 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 01:18:09 that explains it 01:18:10 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:18:13 but not a good reason 01:18:15 IMO 01:18:31 It makes sense theoretically. 01:18:34 Stop being so anglocentric. 01:18:37 GregorR, in FPSP now. 01:18:40 AnMaster: I don't try to, but I might accidentally. 01:18:44 ehird, Um. I'm from Sweden. 01:18:54 AnMaster: Eurocentric. 01:19:02 Anythingbutjapacentric 01:19:03 ehird, that I can live with. 01:19:33 GregorR, well lets wait for this to finish and I will pastebin the output. And the expected output. 01:19:58 GregorR, which will differ slightly since my system has different env vars 01:20:06 AnMaster: You should come to Purdue next year. One of our resident Swedes is moving on to a professorship and our group won't have a Swedish majority anymore :( 01:20:11 and "current time" will differ. 01:20:19 s/majority/plurality/ 01:20:24 GregorR, your group? 01:20:51 UNDEF: YODHMS claim that the GMT time is (or was a few moments ago) 2009 - 5 - 1 00 : 08 : 44 01:20:52 well 01:20:53 A subset of the PL research group at Purdue under Dr. Vitek. 01:20:56 that shows it 01:20:59 it does buffer 01:21:22 AnMaster: I know it buffers, I just don't know which buffer is staying alive :P 01:21:29 it took 10 minutes and so, right? 01:21:29 "The number of cylinders for this disk is set to 1337." 01:21:34 GregorR, ok 01:21:42 lifthrasiir, it is still going... 01:22:02 GregorR, hey. What was the exit status 01:22:04 Trying to quit with q. If the return status is 15, consider it GOOD... 01:22:15 * AnMaster pastebins output now 01:22:19 AnMaster: I can't check. 01:22:54 GregorR: add exitstatus command to print the last exit status, like bash's $? 01:23:09 (well i'm just kidding now.) 01:24:10 GregorR, http://pastebin.ca/1409047 01:24:15 first line was in channel 01:24:23 * kerlo blinks\ 01:24:27 http://pastebin.ca/1409048 is expected output free standing 01:24:39 It seems that the last note of a measure is the same as the root of the chord of that measure. 01:24:41 time, date, and env will differ 01:25:06 kerlo, not if the measure is metric 01:25:28 GregorR, I know empty lines are stripped 01:25:36 Is that the sort of joke that it's even possible to get? :-P 01:25:38 but I don't see why the leading spaces are 01:25:47 * kerlo uses that rule to measurify his little tune 01:25:51 kerlo, measure(ment) 01:25:59 feet vs. meters 01:26:11 AnMaster: I assume it's because bash read LN strips *shrugs* 01:26:20 GregorR, oh ok 01:26:27 GregorR, still pretty impressive :D 01:26:34 that I got it through 01:26:40 Hm, The fullwidth and halfwidth sections really tend to pique one's interest! 01:26:52 Gracenotes: and I feel kind of bad about it :( 01:26:55 Gracenotes: So does your face. 01:26:56 AUGH 01:27:24 Gracenotes, that is hard to read 01:27:45 I'm sorry, did you say something about my face :( 01:27:58 Gracenotes: Yes. Your face 01:27:58 Gracenotes: So do you feel kind of bad about it :( or not? 01:28:24 half-width, full-width. why not double-width? 01:28:40 so 01:28:45 USB has low-speed, full-speed, and high-speed (which is greater than full speed) 01:28:52 Quadruple-width: NOMINAL HORIZONTAL TABULATION 01:28:53 GregorR, yes :D 01:28:58 um 01:29:01 isn't the new one 01:29:05 something else 01:29:08 I forgot the name 01:29:11 for usb 3.0 speed 01:29:23 ehird: perhaps I feel kind of bad about it :( 01:29:29 SuperSpeed. 01:29:29 norly-this-is-our-fastest-speed 01:29:31 GregorR, no "HighSpeed" 01:29:35 Hi Speed 01:29:38 Yes, "SuperSpeed". 01:29:39 pikhq, really? Ok 01:29:48 Anyway, that little rule is completely consistent with my intuition. 01:29:55 or Hi-Speed 01:29:57 ehird: but I don't think the fullwidth section should be limited to just feeling bad about things! you know? 01:30:04 kerlo, what rule 01:30:42 Gracenotes, why is that font smaller 01:30:51 as in 01:31:04 wider than other monospace chars (!) but smaller letters 01:31:12 ehird vs ehird 01:31:18 In order from slowest to fastest: Full Speed, Ultra Speed, Super Speed, Great Speed, High Speed, Added Speed, Speed. 01:31:22 And it's apparently similar to PCIe 1x... 01:31:24 AnMaster: that's what fullwidth text is. 01:31:37 Gracenotes: feeling bad about things != and i feel kind of bad about it :(ing 01:31:52 kerlo, fastest to slowest right? 01:31:55 true 01:32:11 ehird, it breaks mono-space 01:32:14 :( 01:32:15 Yes. Fastest to slowest, starting on the right. 01:32:16 horrible 01:32:17 AnMaster: many characters do. 01:32:20 :-P 01:32:26 see, e.g., MUCH GREATER THAN or w/e 01:32:26 ehird: 01:32:37 comex: I refuse to answer messages prefixed by a line with just my name and a colon. 01:32:54 ehird, That should not happen in a mono-space font 01:32:58 AnMaster: It does. 01:33:01 Deal with it. 01:33:02 it's wrong. 01:33:09 Monospace is wrong. 01:33:10 the AFO and I have way way way too many crops 01:33:15 ehird, no it isn't 01:33:17 comex: Give me some. 01:33:38 now that nobody usually cares, it's the perfect time to make bayes play AAA 01:33:53 it will be a good way for me to procrastinate studying for APs 01:34:02 what 01:34:10 that made no sense 01:34:15 and I can host it somewhere reliable if you can't :p 01:35:38 for example, posting "I request subsidization" ever week would be very helpful 01:35:38 by the way. javascript:alert((function(s){t=[];for(i=s.length;i--;){v=s.charCodeAt(i);t.unshift(v==32?' ':String.fromCharCode(v+65248))}return t.join('')})(prompt('',''))) 01:35:44 for your own full-width encoding needs 01:35:55 comex: what, you have AP tests? 01:35:57 yes 01:36:04 also: maybe I'll annoy people and put it in the ruleset 01:36:04 but no 01:36:21 GregorR, https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/b83da7601e63 <-- no commit message?! 01:36:32 I'm disappointed :( 01:36:43 and I feel kind of bad about shit :( 01:36:46 You're in high-school-or-the-equivalent-in-your-country, then? 01:36:49 That was just changing two configuration values, and I'm lazy :p 01:37:26 GregorR, in the future will you be able to pull cfunge yourself? I mean it isn't really hard. Just bzr 01:37:35 ;P 01:37:59 Part of the idea behind new EgoBot is that since I can just accept bundles and push them, I can remain mostly hands-off. 01:38:11 GregorR: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/59aeb98a08ea#l2.10 <-- ? 01:38:14 As a result, I'll only update things when either people give me updates or I feel like it. 01:38:18 I didn't add an extra space to that line 01:38:24 so what happened 01:38:38 So, now that I've figured out the rule governing chords in music, I just have to figure out the rules governing melody and rhythm. 01:38:46 AnMaster: ...........? 01:38:56 GregorR, that extra space on the line "2.10" is not in the patch 01:39:01 see how it is added 01:39:13 2.7 - rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1; 01:39:13 2.8 - rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1; 01:39:13 2.9 + rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x; 01:39:13 2.10 + rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y; 01:39:16 there 01:39:17 extra space 01:39:30 ..... there's no extra space there ..... at least not in my view ..... tab vs spaces? 01:39:36 GregorR, all tabs 01:39:46 browser fail 01:39:49 konqueror 01:40:06 kerlo: what's the rule? 01:40:21 BROWSER FAIIIIIIIIIIIL 01:42:14 anyone know how to check what filesystem a given device is on linux? 01:42:27 is it mounted? 01:42:35 no, but I can mount it, maybe. 01:42:49 ehird, file -s /dev/abc 01:42:51 i'm not certain debian comes with ext4 out of the box, and I want to check my "mke2fs -t ext4" worked, y'see 01:42:56 the -s makes it work on special files 01:43:00 AnMaster: no file(1) 01:43:02 ehird, note it may be wrong for ext4 01:43:06 minimal busybox installer environment 01:43:08 ehird, mount it 01:43:17 k 01:43:25 do I have to specify "stripe-width=32" on mount time, I wonder? 01:43:26 and check /proc/mounts after 01:43:27 or just at create time 01:43:32 ehird, no clue 01:43:44 kerlo: so what's the rule? 01:43:54 oklofog, scrollback 01:44:07 or... is it foggy? 01:44:40 dunno, maybe i'm just blind 01:44:47 -!- MizardX has quit ("zzz"). 01:44:54 ah that far 01:44:56 ehird, note that filesystem may be mounted as ext3... 01:45:08 ehird, if it doesn't use any of the new features 01:45:12 AnMaster: well this is the issue isn't it 01:45:20 ehird, what 01:45:27 ehird, -t ext4 01:45:32 at mount 01:45:37 if you prefer 01:45:56 awesome, I forgot mount's syntax and I have no man(1) 01:46:02 busybox is fun 01:46:02 oklofog: the root of the chord of a measure is the same as the last note of that measure. 01:46:14 mount -t ext4 /dev/bar /mnt/quux 01:46:15 yeah found 01:46:16 so umm 01:46:25 how's that a rule? 01:46:31 ehird, not sure if busybox mount is the same 01:46:36 like, can it handle ext4 01:46:37 not busybox mount 01:46:42 oklofog: it states that a certain thing is always a certain thing. 01:46:42 ah 01:46:45 That makes it a rule. 01:46:48 AnMaster: this is an lvm partition, it doesn't seem to mount 01:46:56 what trickery do I need to mount an lvm-hosted partition? 01:47:00 kerlo: are you saying some melodies go by that rule? 01:47:00 ehird, mount --help 01:47:03 ehird, err 01:47:06 what 01:47:14 it says no such device. 01:47:16 ehird, what exactly did you do 01:47:27 ehird, because you should need no trickery 01:47:32 With Nightwish's "Amaranth", it works perfectly. With a little tune I came up with once, it works perfectly. With Mozart's Minuet in F for keyboard, K. 5, it fails perfectly. 01:47:47 okay 01:47:49 ehird, assuming you did vgchange -y -a and such of course 01:47:50 mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1 01:47:51 then i don't know what you mean 01:47:58 er 01:47:58 wait 01:48:00 mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1 01:48:02 sda1 isn't the 01:48:03 that isn't lvm 01:48:04 lvm one 01:48:04 at all 01:48:05 dur 01:48:12 amaranth's chorus' first chord is the basic [037]-chord 01:48:14 AnMaster: correct, pvcreate –metadatasize 250k /dev/sda2 is the lvm one 01:48:17 and 01:48:19 i'm confused now 01:48:22 ehird, you would have /dev/my-volume-group/foo 01:48:24 as the device 01:48:26 or something 01:48:32 first measure ends in an A 01:48:32 that's just convention iirc. 01:48:41 where i'm using my standard 0-9A-Z scal 01:48:41 e 01:48:55 kerlo: maybe i forgot what a measure is 01:48:57 i'll check. 01:48:59 ehird, which would be a symlink to /dev/device-mapper/myvolumegroup-foo 01:49:00 iirc 01:49:21 err 01:49:27 /dev/mapper/myvolumegroup-foo 01:49:30 oh, shit 01:49:34 debian's kernel is too old for ext4 01:49:35 kekekeke 01:49:48 # ls /dev/mapper/ -l 01:49:48 total 0 01:49:48 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Apr 16 20:05 control -> ../device-mapper 01:49:49 brw-r----- 1 root disk 254, 4 Apr 16 20:06 vg-flightgear 01:49:51 and so on 01:50:13 my main volume group is vg 01:50:39 ehird, " that's just convention iirc." <-- pretty sure it isn't "just" that 01:50:50 kerlo: counterarguments? 01:51:02 AnMaster: it's worth nothing that i don't know shit about lvm 01:51:10 AnMaster: i've caved now. i'm going to try arch linux 01:51:11 ehird, yes. 01:51:12 oklofog: if you're offering, then sure. 01:51:16 Let me find a good tutorial 01:51:17 ehird, ^ 01:51:20 distroshopping :-) 01:51:31 kerlo: counterarguments to my counterargument? 01:51:36 counterBUTTS? 01:51:39 but i think i'm right, why would i do that 01:51:42 ehird, ok. Lets take this easy. Right? 01:51:52 AnMaster: I AM NEVER EASY 01:51:55 Ahe,/ 01:51:57 Sure. 01:51:59 *Ahem. 01:52:10 ehird, You may have your opinions on Gentoo and so on. But it is well known the official docs are high quality. 01:52:10 SO 01:52:15 I'm linking you to: 01:52:18 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/lvm2.xml 01:52:26 which describes what you need to know 01:52:35 about how it works overall 01:52:35 oklofog: I haven't actually tried it with the chorus. 01:52:47 ehird, it is centered on gentoo install, just ignore that bit 01:52:53 I kind of get the feeling that LVM2 is horrific but I hvae to use it anyway :) 01:53:03 It actually does work with one part of the Minuet, so perhaps it fails with part of "Amaranth". 01:53:04 kerlo: what part then? give me notes and chords 01:53:08 ehird, it is flexible. Like text config files. 01:53:18 ehird, you can't have both. 01:53:34 i just took the part i remembered first, it's usually the chorus in pieces that are built on one. 01:53:41 ehird, then there is http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/ too 01:53:48 the extensive guide 01:53:52 mm 01:54:00 I haven't read all of that 01:54:05 and it is both LVM1 and LVM2 01:54:09 kerlo: i'm pretty sure base note of chord = first note of measure is a better rule. 01:54:43 if not, then you do make an interesting point, in either case the rules governing chords are much more complicated than that. 01:54:55 ehird, anyway, I'm afraid lvm is one of those apps you hate before you "get it" and love once you "get it". And "getting it" requires reading manual. 01:55:10 I'm only using LVM to do aligning stuff :( 01:55:11 :/ 01:55:23 ehird, well. You need to know about it still 01:55:32 you will love it 01:55:47 if necessary, at a knife point ;P 01:55:48 * ehird dl archlinux-2009.02-ftp-i686.iso 01:55:52 AnMaster: I may do. 01:55:56 Notes: A C D .|. . . .|A . G F|E . D C 01:56:10 Decent chords: Dm, Dm, F, C. 01:58:02 kerlo, what about D C#m E B#m7? 01:58:03 I don't think the first note of the measure is reliable at all. 01:58:04 ;P 01:58:13 err 01:58:13 AnMaster: d + C#m? 01:58:25 make that Bbm7 01:58:34 still E is off 01:58:41 oklofog, Yes. Wasn't this the Shönberg competition? 01:58:46 Schönberg* 01:59:02 AnMaster was not serious, as those chords make no sense. I think. 01:59:11 kerlo, correct. 01:59:39 kerlo: i know that. no excuse to have errors. 01:59:40 oklofog, yes change it to Gbm-7+(2/3^2) 01:59:41 ;P 01:59:44 the E that is 01:59:45 AnMaster: how much ram should I have for arch 01:59:46 excuse to have nonsensicalities. 02:00:10 ehird, Well on my Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM I use Arch Linux. 02:00:21 ehird, and yes LVM. But not for /boot and / of course 02:00:21 AnMaster: will 384 do? 02:00:24 Anyway, the chords for the Minuet can be fixed trivially by shifting them a certain amount. A perfect fifth up or down. 02:00:27 I think. 02:00:34 what do you mean? 02:00:35 I plan on using lvm for / 02:00:38 just not /bot 02:00:44 ehird, well I only run sshd, nfsd and ntp on it... 02:00:57 AnMaster: 384 is enough to run a gnome debian system w/ firefox 02:01:00 with no lag 02:01:11 ehird, then you need initramfs. For arch this means you will need to edit mkinitcpio.conf or something iirc 02:01:21 ? 02:01:21 to say "yes I want lvm tools in my initramfs" 02:01:26 there are docs about it 02:01:26 i don't want lvm for this vm 02:01:27 :p 02:01:30 as in kernel says it 02:01:35 ehird, what then 02:01:44 also not sure if last arch cd has ext4 02:01:47 just want to know how much ram i need for a comfortable graphical arch. 02:01:56 ehird, I never tried that. 02:01:58 So no idea. 02:02:01 "The root of the chord of a measure is a perfect fifth the last note of that measure." 02:02:05 * kerlo checks 02:02:06 kerlo: at least first note is part of the chord with a much greater probability than the last one. the last note isn't an emphasized note. 02:02:23 ehird, I'd try with that and expand if not enough 02:02:27 Below. 02:02:37 ehird, easy since it is a VM right? 02:02:45 Shure. 02:03:11 ehird, also depends on if you select KDE 4.x with compiz or plain xfce or whatever 02:03:21 * kerlo checks his tune again 02:03:24 ehird, oh and KDE is a separate package repo iirc. Called "kdemod" 02:03:31 so you need to check docs. 02:03:36 And I'm heading to bed 02:03:39 03:03... 02:03:53 Leeet's goooooo 02:03:55 2:03 here 02:04:08 kerlo: of course below, that means they are the top note of the chord 02:04:13 GRUB on a CD? 02:04:13 noob :P 02:04:15 OMGWTFBBQ 02:04:26 network stuff -> 02:05:41 AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical? 02:05:42 :'( 02:06:22 I was wrong. With my little tune, it sucks as well. 02:07:12 kerlo: you do realize most notes whose position are odd (zero-indexed) are secondary notes and can be shifted without major consequences 02:07:22 the last note is often coincidental 02:08:21 Heuristic, then: the longest note is often the root. 02:08:31 i don't really have any idea how well chording can be done computationally 02:08:41 well, songsmith works pretty well 02:09:51 kerlo: if there's a note that's clearly longer than others, it's usually part of the chord. 02:10:18 but, well. heuristics are heuristics 02:10:24 kinda like fish are fish. 02:10:52 but not like a derived class is-a base class. 02:11:05 *how 02:11:10 hmm 02:11:18 maybe not, i forgot what i was doing 02:11:22 i want pizza 02:11:56 50 minutes till last shop that ever closes closes. 02:12:25 would take me about 20 minutes to get there 02:12:45 wonder if i should....... 02:12:48 Songsmith: "Eye of the Tiger? No problem! I'll just play some sunny chords in E flat minor. I hope syncopation is fine..." 02:12:55 s/minor/major/ 02:13:11 well 02:13:18 more like i'll just play some sunny e minor. 02:13:35 E flat major. The song is in C minor. 02:13:41 Maybe it's sunny C minor. 02:14:02 well i don't care, i don't have absolute pitch 02:14:11 sunny [037] 02:14:24 god i hate your lesser standards 02:14:26 Oh, that's your way of saying "minor", isn't it. 02:14:30 yes 02:14:35 it's just as short! 02:15:10 [...] is the sequential way to denote simultaneous notes 02:15:17 Just giving the number of semitones doesn't retain information some people think is important. :-P 02:15:41 Though three semitones is probably not an augmented second, and four semitones is probably not a diminished fourth. 02:15:44 sure, but those people are wrong 02:16:29 * kerlo listens to the Songsmith version of Everlong that doesn't suck. 02:16:49 (Not to be confused with "the Songsmith version of Everlong, which doesn't suck". The official version doesn't suck either.) 02:17:06 i should probably learn some theory 02:17:08 heh 02:17:29 well songsmith's songs are usually good, i think people just aren't capable of listening to them as separate from the originals 02:18:04 then again maybe i just like everything that sounds weird. 02:18:29 Theory teaches you important stuff, like how 2^(10/12) = 7/4, 2^(7/12) = 6/4, and 2^(4/12) = 5/4. 02:18:38 :P 02:18:48 The second approximation is the best, the last is not bad, and the first is the worst. 02:18:50 i have no idea what university music theory even is 02:19:05 probably it's not as good as i'd hope, but probably it's better than what it was in elementary school. 02:19:12 and that other school after taht 02:19:13 *that 02:19:21 Elementary school has theory? 02:19:41 i was in a special music ...stream? god i don't know any terms 02:19:54 class maybe. 02:19:59 Track? 02:20:06 that's probably one term maybe sure yes 02:20:09 The majority of elementary school students I've seen have all been anthropomorphic animals. 02:20:32 i outsmarted pretty much all out teachers 02:20:52 *our 02:21:03 my experience is elementary school teachers are like that. 02:21:28 then again this is just me complaining about how i lost half my life in school 02:21:35 I think I've been mirando too much playful visual media. 02:21:51 right i don't do taht 02:21:53 *that 02:21:57 ("Mirando" being the Spanish word for both "watching" and "looking at". I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".) 02:22:06 (i know) 02:22:28 (oh that was not just a translation) 02:22:35 (it was insight) 02:22:49 What was an insight, not a translation? 02:23:47 well it was a translation, i just meant you had other content than just enough for me to understand what you mean. 02:23:49 *ment 02:23:50 *meant 02:24:02 which is good because i hate people telling me what i already know 02:24:47 Mm. 02:24:58 mainly this here: 'I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".' doesn't add anything to the translation, therefore it was insight. 02:25:49 Now to look for non-naive calques. 02:26:22 sophisticated enough for me 02:26:27 Ooh! "Admire" contains the English root, staring right at you. 02:27:34 does that come straight from spanish? 02:27:36 So "miring". I've been miring too much playful visual media. 02:28:01 "Admire" comes from Latin. 02:28:12 ad + mirari. 02:28:52 The word "mirar" is just a corruption of "mirari", I think, so we're allowed to pretend that "mirari" and "mirar" mean the same thing. 02:29:24 ("Mirari" actually means "admire"; it's just that we English speakers can't do without our ancient, unrecognizable prepositional prefixes.) 02:29:42 :) 02:29:50 * oklofog starts lating next fall! 02:29:52 wait 02:29:53 latin 02:30:20 "start" may be a bad verb for that 02:31:48 * pikhq pensas ke gxi estas malintelegxente. 02:32:13 Wow, someone said a sentence in Esperanto I can understand. 02:32:29 you're wondering who's stupid? 02:32:34 "I'm starting Spanish next year" is a perfectly idiomatic way of saying "My Spanish classes start next year" or "I'm starting to study Spanish next year". 02:32:37 and oh that was esperanto 02:33:29 kerlo: well it sounds right, i'm just gradually losing more and more confidence in my language skills. 02:33:44 Also, I need to study my Esperanto. ;) 02:34:02 *loosing 02:34:10 statistically speaking it's "loosing" 02:34:14 Lawlz. 02:34:33 (i read a lot of english written by finns) 02:34:59 Better than reading English by 'Mericuhns. 02:35:44 that's one helluva pretty spelling 02:36:02 Isn't it? 02:36:03 pikhq: what did that sentence mean? 02:36:11 pikhq: yes, reminds me of walruses 02:37:03 "I think that's stupid." 02:37:10 At least, that's what I wanted it to say. 02:37:10 Properly speaking, it's "losing". :-P 02:37:27 Well, "unintelligent". 02:37:39 kerlo: a pretty lose definition of "proper" 02:37:53 I'm not sure it's "unintelligent" in the sense that non-people can be unintelligent. 02:37:56 !befunge98 88*::*:**02-*.@ 02:37:56 (sorry, i couldn't come up with a better usage) 02:37:56 -2147483648 02:38:22 "That movie had a really low IQ." "This song has the lowest IQ ever." 02:38:24 pikhq: ah so gxi was a pronoun, couldn't deduce that 02:39:10 is "gx" the lojban "x" character? 02:39:43 No, gx is dj in Lojban. 02:39:59 what 02:40:01 okay. 02:40:15 makes sense for intelegxente 02:40:29 Properly written, it's actually g with a circumflex accent. 02:40:29 Yeah. 02:40:43 My terminal hates the compose key. 02:41:03 (which is kinda stunning... rxvt-unicode should surely support, y'know, Unicode.) 02:41:27 hmm 02:41:36 i need to leave pretty much now if i want foods. 02:41:48 i wonder if i do 02:41:56 is eating nice? 02:43:25 i'll take that as a no 02:43:42 Eating is sometimes nice. 02:43:59 On occasion. 02:44:07 but is this an occasion 02:44:09 Hey, look. I've spent so long trying to work on this email that it is now dark outside. 02:44:21 Because of my procrastination, I cannot take a walk. 02:44:51 i probably need to take a walk soon, i'm currently at the uni 02:45:04 (5 am soon) 02:45:48 This is a shame, as I was looking forward to doing that today. 02:46:02 you like walking? alone? 02:46:19 It's more fun than sitting in IRC waiting for someone to say something. 02:46:30 did i say it was not 02:46:46 Then I was rendering your voice wrong. Let's start over. 02:46:50 i've had some of my best ideas walking around 02:46:58 Yes and yes. 02:48:06 people tend to interpret everything to be as hostile as possible, given no explicit sign of friendliness; humans have only communicated textually for so long 02:48:47 Interesting. 02:48:58 not my theory, but i find it very true. 02:49:39 well of course, unkown people are by default only out to kill you and take your food and women 02:49:57 probably the only thing i learned from the "computer science and society" course 02:50:31 Women are property because they cannot be shared whereas men can. 02:50:43 According to a dubious blog post, that is. 02:50:57 if it was in a blog, it's probably true 02:51:16 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:52:08 kerlo: men can be shared but women can't? 02:53:19 in what sense? probably men are better at being shared than women 02:54:13 Well, yeah. Women can't be shared as much as men. 02:54:39 psychologically or biologically? 02:54:51 latter is obvious 02:55:05 former seems obvious, but may well be completely false 02:55:09 *to me 02:55:13 The latter. 02:55:29 Of course, some men are selfish. 02:57:16 hmm, so it seems i'm not going to the shup. 02:57:57 but i probably should consider sleeping soon, especially as i'm not really reading because i'm too tired :) 02:58:51 also why couldn't you take a walk? 03:10:04 Around here, walking at night is generally considered improper or something. 03:10:31 err. what kind of place do you live in? 03:11:03 in cities and the woods it's okay, i guess in the areas between those it might be improper. 03:11:21 well not sure, i've never lived in the woods 03:11:25 just guessing 03:13:09 here it's probably somewhat unsafe to be walking tonight, because it's a holiday of some sort and students are drinking lots 03:13:41 one tried to offer me a night of free beers at a bar on my way here 03:14:31 (i'm fairly sure he was hot for me, i'm quite a gay magnet for some reason) 03:14:58 err 03:15:04 except magnets can't physically be gay 03:15:34 so umm that's kind of a weird idiom. 03:16:20 The Township Trail runs right behind my backyard; it mostly goes through forest. 03:16:35 (I think it also goes through lots of people's front yards. Those people are probably unhappy.) 03:17:28 And we all know that "magnet" is a metaphor for "thing that attracts", and you were using "gay" as a noun. 03:18:08 well it was a joke, based on thinking of gay there as an adjective. 03:18:33 * kerlo shrugs 03:18:41 NO YOU LAUGH THIS INSTANT 03:18:47 * kerlo laughs 03:18:54 i'm such a comedian 03:19:07 I guess there's also the problem of getting into the house when I return. 03:19:29 you live with your parents? 03:19:46 It would probably be illegal for me not to. Yes, I do. 03:19:47 i mean is it a noise problem, or you don't own a key, or the house doesn't let people in at night in any case 03:19:55 err aren't you like 16? 03:20:12 16, yes. 03:20:17 Below the age of majority, I'm sure. 03:20:30 16 isn't a uncommon age to move out in finland 03:20:39 or maybe i just know uncommon people once again 03:20:49 I guess it's not going to be illegal for me to live at school once I go to school. 03:21:25 And it wasn't illegal for me to live in Indiana, though I'm sure there were people responsible for my whereabouts. 03:21:42 probably not. which school was that again? i think you've mentioned so i can ask 03:22:30 It's likely that it's been different every time I've mentioned it. 03:22:36 the to-be school, not the old one 03:22:39 Grand Valley State University is pretty much a certainty by now. 03:22:47 heh 03:22:59 okay never heard of that 03:23:27 is it awesome? i'm always looking for american universities tips 03:23:48 I get the idea that it's pretty darn non-awesome. 03:24:10 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology is the awesome one. 03:24:22 And it costs about $45,000 per year without scholarships. 03:24:31 what subject, i actually probably don't know? 03:25:03 Mathematics, economics, linguistics, or something similar to those. 03:25:28 well i can get any scholarship, so money isn't much of an issue 03:25:37 I like to call them the MEL subjects. 03:25:49 How do you know you can get any scholarship? 03:25:51 right, i always assumed math but you've talked about english too 03:26:31 well if they are based on merit, i can get them 03:27:17 i have a perfect average, and i've done 2.5 years worth of courses this year, so on paper i'm probably in the top then in the country 03:27:22 *ten 03:27:38 well okay not perfect but i can explain the few flaws 03:27:41 Cool. 03:28:50 Hmm. I wonder if I've ever admired an actual person for their intelligence. 03:29:06 i don't think i've ever admired an actual person 03:29:17 people tend to be kinda stupid, even when they're better than me 03:29:41 I've admired the fictional Charlie Gordon for his, but I tend to think myself able to outdo people, if I put the effort into it. 03:29:49 And I never put the effort into it, so I'm never proven wrong. 03:30:01 well that's pretty much what i did this year, put the effort into it 03:30:59 2.5 years' worth of courses in one year? Bring it on; all of my classes are boring. 03:31:10 bring it one how? 03:31:16 I have no idea. 03:31:20 *on 03:31:49 it's still not that much, i just took a few more courses than i did in high school, here you just usually take very little, so my little is globally speaking a lot 03:32:25 But next week and the week after, I have AP tests. They include Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism, and Chemistry. 03:32:49 well those all sound interesting enough. 03:33:02 AP test? 03:33:06 aptitude 03:33:07 ? 03:33:11 The bulk of my knowledge about economics comes from a one-semester economics course I took two years ago. A lot of my knowledge about physics comes from a one-year physics course I took six years ago. 03:33:27 Advanced Placement; the idea is getting college credit for classes taken in high school. 03:33:33 i don't have any knowledge about either :< 03:33:42 ah okay 03:33:50 Anyway, I'm hoping that the economics tests will be pretty intuitive. 03:34:23 i got "college credit" for the courses i took at the actual university during high school 03:34:45 I think the amount of stuff there is to know about physics is relatively small. 03:34:48 Yeah, not the same. 03:35:14 and from the cisco ccna stuff i did, which was 100% surface learning, i don't remember any of it 03:35:48 Chemistry is something there is a lot to know about, but I got an 800 on the SAT II for it, and I took Honors Chemistry last year. 03:36:00 Let's see, my other AP tests are... 03:36:04 i didn't actually know how to study at high school, i did well enough by just using my brain in the exams 03:36:38 there's not a lot to know about physics? 03:36:48 where's Slereah when you need him 03:36:51 English, Biology, and Calculus BC, I'm taking the classes for, so there's little question that I'll get 5s on those. 03:37:09 oh same grade system, fail-5? 03:37:30 These differential equations govern gravity. These differential equations govern electricity and magnetism. That's it. 03:37:35 It's similar. 03:38:36 1 is "no recommendation", 2 is "possibly qualified", 3 is "qualified", 4 is "well qualified", and 5 is "extremely well qualified". 03:38:59 These refer specifically to "college credit or advanced placement". 03:39:45 right 03:39:51 good luck on those 03:40:25 And the other ones I'm taking are Computer Science AB and Physics C: Mechanics. 03:40:32 speaking of studies, i have four exams next week, so i should probably start considering leaving soon 03:40:51 err AP's or courses? 03:40:56 AP tests. 03:41:00 right right 03:41:14 Each test takes four hours; I think I'll finish each day by 5 PM at the latest. This leaves a nice four hours to study for the next test, eh? 03:41:38 how many you have in one week? 03:41:52 They're spread out relatively evenly over two weeks. 03:42:10 i usually do exams in about 3 hours, therefore i have about 14 hours a day for reading 03:42:28 What, four hours of sleep? 03:42:29 i have 6 exams in the next 2 weeks 03:42:40 err 03:42:49 14+3=17, 24-17=7 03:43:02 but yes, that's how much i sleep when i have exams, or less 03:43:06 Right, right. 03:43:11 3-4 hours 03:43:14 i panic lots. 03:43:33 "OMG WHAT IF I FORGET THE DETAILS OF THIS HEADER" 03:44:16 So, it looks like I have a test on Tuesday, May 5; one on Wednesday, May 6; three on Monday, May 11; one on Tuesday, May 12; one on Wednesday, May 13; and two on Thursday, May 14. 03:44:45 But the three on May 11 are really more like one and two halves, since the Physics C ones are half as long as the others. 03:45:01 taking AP? 03:45:10 coppro: yep. 03:45:17 neat 03:45:23 also, /me should scroll up 03:45:28 that's a lot of exams; then again if it's about aptitude i guess it doesn't matter that much. 03:45:38 Also, I have a load of Spanish homework due on May something. 03:45:56 My Spanish teacher said that I need to be doing about five assignments a day to catch up. 03:46:08 i like to surface learn all the details before the exam, which isn't the point for aptitude stuff (and not for exams either, it's just how i roll). 03:46:13 Due to the fact that I'm not in AP and the fact that AP exams won't get me anything at my target university, I'm not writing any AP exams. 03:46:54 What is "aptitude"? 03:47:03 kerlo: err 03:47:19 the thing i thought ap was about, and still think it is 03:47:21 you know, skill 03:47:41 and not about learning some specific new thing 03:48:04 So practical ability, neither knowledge nor intelligence exclusively but a combination. 03:48:22 ...maybe. 03:48:48 something like that, i just meant it's probably the kind of exam that's more about how well you know the general subject than it is about being you know studied it lots. 03:49:03 like you know understanding. forget it :P 03:49:07 doesn't matter 03:50:18 That's why I don't plan on studying lots. :-P 03:50:22 i just assume it's not the kind of thing you revise that much before the exam, but more the kind of thing that tries to measure what you learned in high school or whatever. 03:50:33 right 03:50:38 that's all i meant 03:51:35 hmm, i'll probably leave in 10 minutes 03:51:48 sun just rose :P 03:52:06 I can study for one on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Thursday, one on Friday, one on Sunday, one on Monday, one on Tueday, one on Wednesday. 03:52:39 next time i don't have to study is probably 19.5. 03:52:43 day.month. 03:52:49 Or I could be responsible and begin studying the day after tomorrow. 03:53:05 excluding these random 3 hour irc breaks 03:53:08 Yeah, right. I have things due Monday. 03:53:26 And I have an email to finish. Be back right before you leave or something. 03:54:04 alrighty, i'll try to consume a few more pages of this trivial networking crap 03:54:08 but what I /do/ need to do is my calculus work 04:00:18 * kerlo finishes the email. 04:00:33 just in time! 04:00:46 * kerlo wins, non-exclusively. 04:00:57 See you. 04:01:00 except i'll just leave irc and read the rest of this thing 04:01:16 so yes, we see like the swedes say. 04:01:21 -!- oklofog has quit ("PJIRC @ http://webirk.dy.fi"). 04:01:22 Of course. 04:06:06 And I guess I have to go now as well. 04:06:33 I have two options: be tired, or get addicted to caffeine. 04:06:58 The obvious explanation for my being tired is that I slept too much last night. :-P 04:07:56 So, plan: read no more than 50 pages of Flowers for Algernon, then work on Spanish. I'm currently on page 185. 04:07:59 See y'all. 04:10:59 I think I'll include a lolcat in my cryptography presentation 04:11:12 namely this specimen, http://geekfriendly.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/schrodinger_s-lolcat.jpg 04:23:07 We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose. 04:45:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:57:41 -!- rodgort has quit ("Coyote finally caught me"). 04:58:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:58:10 -!- lifthrasiir has quit ("Changing server"). 04:58:45 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:00:39 -!- lifthrasiir has left (?). 05:02:01 That seems really simple. 05:02:31 It makes me wonder if there's a way to estimate the maximum nimber of a group given a random sample. 05:03:20 The obvious answer is no, because it's PSPACE-complete. 05:04:54 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 05:09:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:10:49 so! 05:30:14 I 06:02:58 though 06:03:01 t 06:20:40 aww. today's xkcd is cute 06:23:04 that's a good idea 06:23:48 I can hear the sound of a thousand geeks scrambling to make such a script and be Internet Famous 06:24:32 there's got to be some ebay-scraping libraries already 06:26:15 lmfao 06:27:08 it'd be hilarious if someone set up a beartrap in the pentagon 06:27:09 lol 06:29:39 yeah, and they'd probably get a thousand life sentences, if not death by disembowelment and a thousand advertisers trying to use the recent "terrorist attack" to sell their security 06:30:20 ...to exaggerate somewhat 06:32:38 my clock is telling me it's too late for aimless rants 06:32:49 well then 06:32:55 get on AIM and start ranting! 06:33:47 oh no, your clever wordplay has rendered every bit of logical reasoning I've picked up over the years utterly useless! :X 06:34:10 VICTORY IS MINE 06:35:45 Somebody set up us the pun 07:06:24 set us up* 07:12:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:13:02 psygnisfive: you clearly don't know how to speak Engrish 07:13:26 except the original quote is "set us up" 07:13:45 oh not its not 07:13:49 damn my faulty memory! 07:14:04 i retract my correction, gracenotes 07:14:13 yeas, "set us up" sounds more natural and more menacing 07:14:49 but your base are not have property natural 07:26:16 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:46:25 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:46 -!- Ilari has quit ("Shutdown..."). 08:42:43 -!- kerlo has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:43:25 -!- kerlo has joined. 09:03:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:15:05 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:24:01 AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical? <-- Yes. Ncurses has line art... :P 09:24:09 anywya 09:24:12 anyway* 09:24:15 you will use it once 09:24:21 does it matter then? 09:24:30 I mean, you won't ever need to use it again after. 09:24:36 since Arch is pure rolling release. 09:25:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:39:46 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:41:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:54:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:11:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:11:58 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:18:30 hi 10:29:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:42:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:57:16 -!- tombom has joined. 11:26:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:40:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:42:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:28:57 oh yeah, Arch is nice! 13:01:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:43:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:33:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:48:00 -!- iano has joined. 15:04:10 -!- iano has quit. 15:08:01 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW"). 15:10:11 -!- M0ny has joined. 15:11:13 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:35:00 -!- olsner has joined. 15:46:08 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 15:50:19 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:06:12 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 16:06:24 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:33:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:35:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:37:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:48:19 -!- louzer has joined. 16:50:03 Is there a mechanical way to make a quine of a combinator? 16:50:23 something like a fixed point combinator? 16:52:42 What do you call a quine from a combinator, exactly? 16:54:50 A quine from an expression made of combinators is something that evaluates producing the same expression that was evaluated. 16:55:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:55:52 Happy Mailman day! 16:56:19 That would be... a non-normal form? 16:56:26 louzer: ```sii``sii is the most famous combinator quine, in that sense 16:56:33 although any such quine is necessarily an infinite loop 16:56:39 Yeah 16:57:03 And I'm not sure you can actually compute to check for it. 16:57:12 hi btw ais523 16:57:16 Halting problem and all 16:57:19 hi 16:57:54 Unless you can, since it's not actually every non-normal forms 16:57:57 Iunno 16:58:02 Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is 17:01:42 * AnMaster is trying to build gcc 4.4 17:01:56 it has some new dependencies. Which has more dependencies. 17:01:57 and so on 17:02:38 two deps left ot compile before it's time to compile gcc itself. 17:03:13 I love the Ubuntu/Debian "install all build dependencies of this package" command 17:03:33 lets you build what parts of the system you like by hand, without chasing dependencies 17:05:00 ais523, they are not in stable arch linux at least yet. 17:05:02 ais523, Perhaps there are ways for a combinator expression to loop forever without ever reaching its starting point 17:05:13 louzer: there definitely are 17:05:21 ais523, plus I had to recompile one dep (gmp) to enable some more options for it 17:05:26 and so on 17:05:45 ```s``skki``sii becomes ```sii``sii after once round the loop, IIRC 17:05:56 and from then on is ```sii``sii forever 17:06:00 ais523, that was quick 17:06:18 heh, ```s.a.b``s.c.d is the usual expression I use to test Unlambda interps 17:06:22 ais523, what about one not ever reaching the same state again. As in, every state is unique 17:06:25 so I'm rather familiar with how it loops 17:06:33 Or `mm on the bird :3 17:06:34 AnMaster: I think that's possible too, but harde 17:06:35 *harder 17:06:44 ok 17:06:57 Slereah, what 17:07:10 m is ``sii in lazy bird 17:07:10 imagine something like (:*:^):^, translated to Unlambda 17:07:33 ^ul (:*:^):^, 17:07:33 ...too much stack! 17:07:37 rigt 17:07:39 right* 17:08:38 Around stacks, never relax. 17:10:11 what if use Zobrist hashing to test whether some evaluation step during evaluation gets repeated? We will be able to do impossibility-space tradeoff attack on halting problem lol.. (People use Zobrist hashing to find whether chess board states get repeat when searching down the game tree.) 17:11:33 wait ordinary hashing would do 17:11:37 the job 17:12:07 because expressions can be evaluated unambiguosly 17:12:51 zobrist would help to check whether parts of the expression are getting repeated 17:13:39 !befunge98 http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/ytest.bf 17:13:40 Flags: 1 17:14:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:14:14 ais523, did you miss that yesterday about egobot? 17:14:20 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:14:48 AnMaster: yes 17:14:51 wb EgoBot 17:14:53 I bet Turing would say there exists an expression that does not have any detectable pattern that signifies non-haltability 17:14:53 !befunge98 3y.@ 17:14:53 1128682830 17:15:05 ais523, it isn't the same one 17:15:10 as in, different code base 17:15:15 no suspending thing 17:15:17 and such 17:16:06 oh and another thing... I made a patch to add befunge-98 to it. Using cfunge. Which made me add some new compile time options for cfunge. To enable/disable some things. 17:16:32 (TURT is disabled in cfunge in EgoBot, so is NCRS and TERM. And it runs with -S so no unsafe IO) 17:18:40 Guys, so there cannot be a mechanical way to generate a quine of a combinator expression because that would mean there exists halting predictor which is impossible? 17:19:36 oh, you can certainly generate some infinite combinator loops 17:19:45 just not all of them 17:19:59 hmm :( 17:20:04 return "```sii``sii" 17:20:18 Works every time 17:20:22 lol 17:20:52 ```s``ska``skb``s``skf``skg is an infinite loop no matter what a, b, f, g 17:21:07 (Unlambda experts will know why I skipped c, d, and e) 17:21:21 !help 17:21:21 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:21:31 !info 17:21:31 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 17:21:45 it's nice to see the exclamation mark prefix come back 17:22:05 so, no !def? 17:22:12 and no Underload? 17:22:15 ais523, Make a patch I guess. 17:22:18 In fact make two 17:22:26 there are instructions for how to add new languages. 17:23:22 but that would been I'd need an Underload interp written in something sane 17:23:24 *mean 17:23:53 Life would have been so much easier if I had an Oracle machine.. fuck reality! it doesn't want me to have one. 17:25:22 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:25:22 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:25 ais523, C, java, haskell and several other ones are supported. 17:25:25 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:25:32 it executes the interpreter binaries. 17:25:39 -!- thutubot has joined. 17:25:47 hm 17:25:50 +hello 17:25:51 Hello, ais523! 17:25:57 +ul (:aSS):aSS 17:25:58 (:aSS):aSS 17:26:18 Heh, asses 17:26:18 now 2 out of 5 bots here can do Underload 17:26:22 rather than 1 out of 4 17:26:25 Slereah: that wasn't deliberate! 17:26:37 I will never believe you 17:26:38 if it were, I'd have capitalised it properly 17:26:46 Does one do unlambda? 17:26:57 EgoBot dose 17:26:59 *does 17:27:03 What command? 17:27:11 !unlambda ```s.a.b``s.c.d 17:27:19 !ps 17:27:28 !unlambda `````kisses 17:27:29 I probably shouldn't have fed it an infinite loop 17:27:33 SMOOCH 17:27:41 Slereah: that produces no output, obviously 17:27:45 Yes 17:27:47 !bf ,[.,]!test 17:27:51 !unlambda ``````kisses.x 17:28:06 I can only conclude I accidentally crashed it with that loop 17:28:09 !unlambda ````kiss.x 17:28:13 Hm 17:28:14 Did you guys kill EgoBot >_< 17:28:16 I guess not 17:28:21 GregorR: I think quite possibly 17:28:27 !help 17:28:27 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:28:37 ok, it's listening to you 17:28:41 !info 17:28:41 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 17:28:51 !bf ,[.,]!test 17:29:03 It's possible, and even likely, that unlambda doesn't work. 17:29:17 I know that bf works, though 17:29:20 and I'm not getting output from it 17:29:30 !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 17:29:30 8 17:29:32 oh 17:29:37 it's just not accepting input via ! 17:29:49 It uses EgoBF *shrugs* 17:30:16 What should ````kiss.x output? 17:30:17 we certainly need to add Underload, but the problem is that the only two known sandboxed Underload interps are written in esolangs 17:30:27 and it shouldn't 17:30:31 ``kis = i 17:30:34 ````kiss = s 17:30:38 and `s.x has no output 17:30:43 because it's an incomplete expression 17:30:47 !unlambda `.xi 17:30:47 x 17:30:56 Oh, so it does work :P 17:31:08 how does EgoBot handle infinite loops? 17:31:12 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:31:14 !unlambda ````````kiss.m.y.a.s.s 17:31:14 myaas 17:31:24 kekeke 17:31:41 It nices down, kills long-running scripts, and refuses to allow anything to take more than 25% CPU 17:31:49 ok, makes sense 17:32:00 :) 17:32:13 Does underload have the ability to run I/O or whatnot? 17:32:19 underload does O but not I 17:32:34 Output to files? 17:32:39 no, just to stdout 17:32:44 oh greaat 17:32:50 one of the deps fail configuring 17:32:52 +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 17:32:54 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output! 17:32:58 ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ 17:32:58 */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output! 17:33:00 it claims a header that does exist doesn't... 17:33:00 So there's no complelling reason not to use a normal underload interp? 17:33:11 the only compelling reason is that there are no normal underload interps 17:33:15 *compelling 17:33:21 OH 17:33:28 Well, one that's in an esolang is fine, really. 17:33:31 Is that prime numbers? 17:33:33 it's simple enough to implement that everyone just wrote esolang versions 17:33:36 So long as it's an esolang that EgoBot supports. 17:33:36 Slereah: no, fibonacci 17:33:42 primes don't go up exponentially 17:33:43 o 17:33:47 oko 17:34:07 really, the best thing would just be to write an interp in something sane 17:34:21 I'm not stopping you :P 17:34:21 there's an efficient C version, but it's a compiler not an interp 17:34:22 I await a hg bundle. 17:35:01 Underload interps have been written in: JS, Thutu, Befunge, Redcode, BF 17:35:18 the other problem is it's very easy to use up memory really quickly in an Underload program 17:35:19 AnMaster: i found some example that rcfunge is faster than cfunge... :p 17:35:22 do you have a limit on memory used? 17:35:26 lifthrasiir, details 17:35:30 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/465147 17:35:34 Yes. 32M 17:35:40 ah, that's fine 17:35:48 lifthrasiir, the actual program? 17:35:50 yes 17:35:51 (I have 1G on the system) 17:35:56 hm 17:36:02 also, the only way to output a newline in Underload's to put a literal newline in the program 17:36:06 but that could just be done via URL 17:36:06 it puts p at <9^6,0> so it tests pure performance of the fungespace get 17:36:10 lifthrasiir, where does it put it 17:36:29 lifthrasiir, is those value average over several runs btw? 17:36:32 ais523: That sort of issue I just dont care about ;) 17:36:41 wait, <9^8,0> = <43046721,0>, i mean 17:36:48 'q99*:*:*0p3 17:36:49 AnMaster: yes. that was similar 17:36:51 does that ever exit? 17:37:05 it should exit eventually. 17:37:22 I don't see how the ' before the q is ever overwritten 17:37:35 lifthrasiir, it runs over lots of empty funge-space indeed, 17:37:37 indeed* 17:37:49 ais523: no, it puts q at <9^8,0>, so after ...p3 there is a generated q and exits 17:38:05 (albeit there are 43000000+ spaces) 17:38:08 ah, aha 17:38:09 in between* 17:38:09 lifthrasiir, what about ccbi and pyfunge on it 17:38:10 I missed that 17:38:12 just out of interest 17:38:41 I suppose an interp really optimised for that program would skip all the spaces in one go, and handle that in O(1) not O(n) time 17:38:43 AnMaster: i don't have a working ccbi build yet, due to out of time, and pyfunge... is too slow. 17:38:55 ais523, you need to find all those spaces. 17:39:07 you could know there was nothing in the columns inbetween 17:39:07 i had to test pyfunge with <9^6,0>. 17:39:08 somehow 17:39:10 which means lots of "check if value exist in hash table" for cfunge. 17:39:15 yes, I know 17:39:39 * ais523 tests Language::Befunge 17:39:45 ~/hg/pyfunge$ echo '88*99*::**0p' | time ./pyfunge -v98 - 17:39:45 2.91 real 2.63 user 0.20 sys 17:39:50 ais523, yes I could. But then I would need to check the hash table for column count 17:39:58 which would for most programs be a waste of time. 17:40:09 yes 17:40:22 that's why I said "optimized for that program" 17:40:52 but still i cannot think why rcfunge is faster than cfunge then. maybe because of mac strangeness? :S 17:40:57 lifthrasiir, feel free to tune the size of the static array to include that. #defines are near line 100 of src/funge-space/funge-space.c. Note the comment about 17:41:01 think of* 17:41:04 about 16-byte divisible* 17:41:13 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 512 17:41:13 #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 1024 17:41:29 err not just 16 byte 17:42:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:42:27 anyway: each must be a power of two. And (FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y * sizeof(funge_cell)) % 128 == 0 17:42:30 I think. 17:42:37 right 17:42:57 the comment *was* correct after all 17:43:30 jqbef98 is much slower than either cfunge or RC/funge 17:43:37 not at all surprising, it's one of the slowest on Mycology 17:43:48 lifthrasiir, I'll try profile it later today. Doing some other stuff atm. And food is soon ready. 17:44:11 * ais523 kills the process after 90 seconds 17:44:54 AnMaster: alright. 17:45:16 lifthrasiir, not that I know rcfunge code very well. 17:45:20 it is rather messy 17:45:41 !help 17:45:41 Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 17:45:58 ais523, were you around when Deewiant tested on 32 MB large text file from project gutenberg? 17:46:03 FYI, i have #defined FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X to 0x4000000 and FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y to 1, and cfunge became very slow (i.e. 60s and still running) 17:46:06 With a @ to just check parsing. 17:46:11 AnMaster: no 17:46:18 for smaller FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X there is no difference. 17:46:23 I like that idea, give a @ followed by 32 MB of junk? 17:46:47 ais523, ah. cfunge was fastest. 27 seconds or such and 2.2 GB RAM. CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly) 17:46:55 don't remember what other ones he tested. 17:47:06 also, my guess for the 0x4000000 define is that cfunge caused the computer to swap by trying to access that much memory 17:47:25 ais523, yes 17:47:30 that sounds correct. 17:47:38 that's a 1 followed by 26 zeroes, isn't it? 17:47:41 bbl food. 17:47:43 that's only 64 MB 17:47:54 wait, *4 or 8 due to width of an int 17:47:56 ais523: no, that is 256 MB. 17:48:07 256 MB isn't an insane amount for some modern computers 17:48:14 presumably yours can't handle it, though 17:48:31 agreed, i have only 2GB of ram 17:48:51 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though 17:53:50 anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp? 17:53:54 as opposed to a compiler? 17:54:53 AnMaster: 3.x or 4.x RAM and 4x minutes 17:55:00 Where I can't remember the x 17:56:39 ais523: Super-optimiZed is not a requirement. (But American spelling is lawl ;) ) 17:56:56 yes, especially as I'm British 17:57:08 I write in a mix of British and American English unless I concentrate 17:57:12 due to being on the Internet so much 17:57:23 Hah 17:57:28 but if I'm going to write an interp in a sane language, I want it to run quickly 17:57:29 AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE INTARWEBS 17:58:16 Deewiant, ? 17:58:33 AnMaster: " CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly)" 17:58:36 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though 17:58:37 um 17:58:42 there is another thing 17:58:46 cache 17:58:48 I assume. 17:58:56 ah, yes 17:59:08 but cache misses shouldn't slow cfunge down that dramatically 17:59:29 Life was simpler when all memory was the same speed 17:59:47 even back in the 6502, memory access to the bottom 256 bytes of memory was faster 17:59:54 *on the 6502 18:00:03 although only 16 bytes of it was available to user programs 18:00:52 who's Lawrence Woodman, I wonder? He's been writing about Redcode and SUBLEQ 18:02:02 Get 'im in 'ere! 18:02:12 that was my reaction 18:02:58 hm 18:03:14 ais523, 256 MB is quite a bit to fill with spaces initially though 18:03:20 oh, of course 18:03:33 although again it shouldn't take that long 18:03:34 even though I use streaming non-temporal stores. 18:03:37 hm 18:03:46 memtest86 can fill my entire memory with anything in less than a second 18:03:50 and I have more than 256 MB 18:04:01 true. 18:04:21 actually, not the entire memory 18:04:30 it needs to reserve some for itself 18:04:51 yes, the entire memory 18:04:59 ais523, I mean. For it's own code. 18:05:00 it fills most of it, then moves itself to a different location, then tests the bit where it was 18:05:03 ah 18:05:11 ais523, what about BIOS reserved bits. 18:05:17 and such 18:05:47 I'm not sure how it handles those 18:06:01 I imagine it doesn't test memory-mapped registers with random data, though! 18:06:09 indeed. 18:06:25 hm 18:07:00 lifthrasiir, did that one you set ever finish? 18:07:27 if not I suspect it just doesn't handle 1 for the dimension very well. 18:07:43 AnMaster: i terminated it before it finishes. 18:18:28 what does "ulp" mean in the context of floating point 18:18:50 unit in the last place. 18:19:05 Or unit of least precision 18:19:06 ok. And what does that actually _mean_ 18:19:07 Same thing 18:19:11 ulp of some floating point number is 18:19:23 ulp(x) is the difference between the two floating-point numbers closest to x 18:19:31 ah 18:19:52 a gap between it and closest representable number greater than it 18:20:36 greater than -> closest to it. 18:21:37 right 18:24:17 ais523, you know gcc best. 18:24:33 ais523, does one need to do the bootstrap thing when building a new gcc version using the previous gcc version. 18:24:35 possibly in this channel, but only an older version, and I bet there are people who know more about gcc than me elsewhere 18:24:46 in this channel yes 18:24:53 and you never "need" to do the bootstrap thing, not even for building with a different compiler 18:25:02 ais523, why does it default to being used then 18:25:15 because it gives a more efficient binary in most cases, and because you can't test unless you bootstrap 18:25:20 To verify trhat the generated compiler is correct. 18:25:26 yep 18:25:40 ah 18:27:07 And because the compiler doesn't taste like chicken until it's compiled itself. 18:27:45 well, anyone can connect to eso-std.org domains? my DNS didn't resolve them at all. 18:28:03 err, eso-std.org no longer exists 18:28:07 ehird dropped the domain, and it's been parked 18:28:15 ah, then okay. 18:28:22 if there's something for particular you're looking for that was there, I might know where it is now 18:28:29 -j2 is safe for gcc iirc 18:29:34 odd, why does trying to open a new ssh connection only work when the target computer isn't loaded. 18:29:43 existing ones work fine in all cases. 18:29:52 so does running most programs 18:30:59 and even if I ctrl-z whatever is putting that load on the system... It doesn't help. 18:31:22 as in, any existing ssh that is currently connecting doesn't finish connecting. 18:31:34 new ones are close to instant 18:33:32 especially configure running prevents it working. Compiles do it sometimes. 18:33:34 ais523, any idea? 18:33:56 no 18:33:59 ok 18:34:06 nothing strange in logs 18:35:56 heh, Microsoft's servers crashed when they tried to release Windows 7 RC to the MSDN and TechNet subscribers 18:36:19 Did they actually crash 18:36:27 I was under the impression they just got slashdotted 18:36:45 someone should slashdot slashdot 18:36:49 just to see what happens. 18:36:59 Why was eso-std.org taken down? (<-- ehird?) 18:37:08 Deewiant: I consider being slashdotted as a form of crashing 18:37:29 GregorR: I'm not entirely sure, I'm no good at following ehird's logic with server maintenance 18:37:39 Slashdottedness doesn't require manual intervention to resolve 18:37:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:37:43 Crashedness does 18:37:48 ah 18:37:52 well, just slashdotted then 18:38:19 ais523: I don't suppose there was anything hugely relevant there anyway? :) 18:38:28 GregorR: It was dormant. 18:38:32 The server is up. 18:38:42 Will not be soon due to moving to prgmr 18:38:54 03:23 GregorR: We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose. 18:38:57 Haw. 18:38:58 *Hawt 18:39:09 AnMaster: well, I can try Arch. 18:39:11 downloading Slackware atm 18:39:16 ehird, ? 18:39:21 reply to you. 18:39:24 didn't you try it 18:39:41 Started to, then had to go sleep. 18:39:45 ehird: that game GregorR mentioned, if you did it with a directed graph you could use it to model any finite game, with an appropriate graph 18:39:54 ais523: Even hawtter. 18:40:12 well nxn Go is supposedly PSPACE-complete iirc 18:40:13 mayhaps I will try a BSD afater slack 18:40:39 ehird: are you messing with lots of different Linux distros? 18:40:46 ais523: Yes. 18:40:52 Distroshopping. 18:40:56 fair enough 18:41:14 ais523, could you model chess with it 18:41:28 AnMaster: arch using grub on a cd freaked me out 18:41:34 AnMaster: yes, in theory, but the graph would be insanely massive 18:41:37 ehird, didn't it work 18:41:45 it worked just fine 18:41:49 but it's freaky 18:41:51 ais523: How massive? If exponential, that's not a valid reduction :P 18:41:54 ais523, how would you do it. I mean how do you represent a game in it. 18:42:02 GregorR: yes, exponential 18:42:11 Right, so that doesn't prove anything about Chess. 18:42:13 AnMaster: with one node for every position, and directed arcs that don't let you go back 18:42:17 GregorR: no, it wasn't meant to 18:42:21 AnMaster: chess has some timeout rules that force it to be finite 18:42:24 Ah, OK :P 18:42:35 So in short, every game with a finite number of states can be represented as a graph of states. 18:42:45 No shit sherock 18:42:47 sherlock 18:42:49 It's called a FSM 18:42:50 (not just no. states but also length) 18:43:01 *an FSM 18:43:01 ais523, you could only represent turn-based games with moves on a graph or board I think. And only deterministic ones. 18:43:22 for example, you couldn't represent any game with dice right? 18:43:28 AnMaster: anyway, I don't mind a textual installer, it just tends to imply unpolishedness in other areas 18:43:29 or did I misunderstand 18:43:36 you're right, it would have to be deterministic 18:43:49 ais523: just add a token 18:43:51 rand(N) 18:43:54 but you don't need moves on a graph/board, anything with a finite number of defined states will do 18:43:55 meaning a number from 0-N inclusive 18:43:58 ais523, and turn based. Not deterministic and continuous. 18:44:04 Is there a theory of nondeterministic graphs? :P (Quantum graphs?) 18:44:09 AnMaster: continuous implies infinite number of states 18:44:17 ais523, well maybe wrong word. 18:44:20 AnMaster: I assume I want an ftp/http installation source? 18:44:27 I'm using the ftp disk 18:44:28 ehird, I used netinstall yes 18:44:30 *disc 18:44:35 ehird, so yes. 18:44:42 dhcpcd failed 18:44:42 awsum 18:45:10 ehird, now it was almost a year ago I installed. So I don't remember all details 18:45:14 maybe ask Deewiant too 18:45:14 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:45:22 GregorR: strictly speaking a reduction from something bounded finite is not really exponential no matter how much it blows up 18:45:39 (you just stick it in the constant multipliers) 18:45:41 AnMaster: oh god, I have to use the awful partitioning program 18:45:47 ais523, make a graph to represent D&D first edition. 18:45:49 ehird, what one? 18:45:55 I thought there was fdisk on it 18:46:03 or was it cfdisk? 18:46:07 cfdisk 18:46:09 oh I see 18:46:10 D&D first edition is nondeterministic and has an infinite number of states 18:46:13 then I feel for you 18:46:13 cfdisk crashed on my disk IIRC 18:46:14 oerjan: True. But I was assuming "generalized" Chess with nxn boards *shrugs* 18:46:17 Deewiant, wow 18:46:21 bbl phone 18:46:27 fdisk worked though 18:47:24 Pacman preparation failed. 18:47:25 Awesome. 18:47:28 * ehird gives up 18:47:31 Even slackware's install is better 18:48:44 Slackware has an installer? :P 18:48:49 Yes. 18:48:52 GregorR: i (very vaguely) recall that loop quantum gravity theory may use something that's almost quantum graphs, although the spin or was it area annotations may be on tuples of lines so it's a bit higher-dimensional 18:49:16 GregorR: It has a command which tells you how to run the disk partitioner, and a program that lets you select what packages to install which then copies them to the disk. 18:49:24 The package installer even uses ncurses. 18:49:30 D-8 18:49:40 They've given up on their heritage! :( 18:49:42 Slackware isn't unusable... just minimalist. 18:50:04 You should install LFS. 18:50:09 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 18:50:12 LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro. 18:50:15 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:50:22 GregorR: I am going to kill you now. 18:50:28 LFS is so awesome it scared thutubot away. 18:50:35 GregorR: You will then die. 18:50:46 "They're just sitting there taking up (precious) disk space." — LFS 18:50:53 Precious disk space. 18:51:05 I think the last time I thought disk was precious was in the nineties. 18:51:31 That's why "precious" is in parens X-P 18:51:45 You could always install Gentoo (wimpmode LFS) 18:51:59 I hate Gentoo with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. 18:52:06 So do I. 18:52:10 Because it's wimpmode LFS. 18:52:13 And I'm no wuss! 18:54:21 Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is 18:55:07 i think that's nearly obvious though, because you can take an integer function with unsolvable halting and turn it into a quine 18:55:27 It's slack time! 18:55:34 * ehird slacks 18:56:08 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 18:56:57 -!- thutubot has joined. 18:57:06 GregorR: WOW, you can use cfdisk OR fdisk! 18:57:16 Slackware is amazing. 18:57:21 also, if something returns to its starting point that can obviously be proved, just as it can be proved _if_ something halts 18:57:33 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 18:58:00 (i guess this is really "obvious if you've thought about such problems before") 18:58:11 Even slackware's install is better <-- I never had any issues. 18:58:14 even on lvm 18:58:26 but cd version I used was from august last year. 18:58:41 Cool, slackware calls ext2 "standard". 18:59:13 LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro. <-- I done it. And HLFS. You learn a lot, but you don't want to use it. 18:59:24 ehird, why are you not going with ubuntu or debian 18:59:33 AnMaster: Boredom. I have cheap VM creation. 18:59:37 And a fast internet connection. 18:59:40 ehird: old standards are also standards? 18:59:42 Distros are like pokemon,. 18:59:47 s/,\.$/./ 18:59:58 Emacs is a separate package series in the slackware installer :DDDDDDDDDDD 19:00:11 lawl, it comes with tex by default 19:00:22 and games! BLOATWARE MORE LIEK 19:00:27 ehird, ah vm... 19:00:28 I bet it comes with hunt(1) 19:00:36 That bastion of funnity 19:00:37 ehird, no idea about arch in vm 19:00:51 "full Install everything (4.8+ GB of software, RECOMMENDED!)" 19:00:51 I only tried it on a non-virtual computer. 19:01:00 where it worked (and works) perfectly. 19:01:17 I bet it comes with hunt(1) 19:01:19 what is that 19:01:25 wumpus? 19:01:25 AnMaster: a bsdgame 19:01:28 ah 19:01:31 very fun 19:01:33 it's multiplayer 19:01:34 Deewiant, isn't it wumpus(1)? 19:01:36 err 19:01:37 goes over the network! 19:01:38 6? 19:01:38 iirc 19:01:39 for game 19:01:41 sgames* 19:01:44 although you'd best use localhost tbh 19:01:56 you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels 19:01:57 and shoot each other 19:01:59 pretty much 19:02:22 ehird, ASCII art with look down like nethack or adventure game style 19:02:29 former 19:02:31 it's a bsdgam 19:02:31 e 19:02:35 yes and 19:02:36 i.e. 70s-80s 19:02:44 there are bsdgames that are text adventure 19:02:45 ... 19:02:46 nobody did adventure game style graphics then 19:02:49 um 19:02:53 you misunderstood me 19:02:58 19:01 ehird: you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels 19:03:00 nethack-style 19:03:02 that implies graphical 19:03:07 ehird, adventure style == adventure(1) 19:03:19 AnMaster: fail. it's ADVENT(1) 19:03:24 not here 19:03:37 ADVENTURE(6) BSD Games Manual ADVENTURE(6) 19:03:42 is what it says 19:03:49 (6) != (1) either 19:03:55 true 19:03:58 I was wrong there. 19:06:09 why does lfs need a guide? 19:06:13 it seems pretty simple 19:06:14 compile kernel 19:06:16 compile glibc 19:06:17 profit 19:06:28 ehird, wrong. 19:06:37 you need to create a temp system in /tools first 19:06:41 boot strap system 19:06:48 AnMaster: err, I meant installing from an existing linux 19:06:54 cd /mnt/lfs, etc 19:06:55 ehird, yes even then that is recommended. 19:07:01 see the guide 19:07:01 don't see why 19:07:07 read the guide ok 19:07:17 I value my sanity 19:08:30 "Debra Lynn Murdock and Ian Ashley Murdock" 19:08:37 — List of divorces for aug 10-16 07 19:08:47 Nobodian 19:09:03 Not that either of them worked on Debian by then anyway :P 19:11:46 Maybe I should make Hirdux ;-) 19:13:38 Murdock? 19:13:42 what was that about 19:13:50 AnMaster: Ian Murdock + Debra Murdock = Debian. 19:13:55 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>[.] 19:13:57 Well, flip that 19:13:58 core developers 19:13:59 or what 19:14:05 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>. 19:14:06 AnMaster: Ian Murdock founded it... 19:14:08 Debra was his wife. 19:14:08 ah 19:14:12 ehird: you have a girlfriend called Ux? 19:14:12 I see 19:14:14 Debra-Ian 19:14:16 Debian 19:14:17 hum 19:14:23 They divorced 19:14:25 Which is amusing 19:14:26 ais523, guess so 19:14:26 ais523: :D 19:14:30 * oerjan facepalms 19:14:36 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.] 19:14:44 ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.] 19:14:45 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ... 19:14:51 !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 19:14:51 @ 19:14:54 Hirdux would deviate from all standards whenever possible 19:15:05 oerjan, it runs for 30 seconds before ending program 19:15:07 just FYI 19:15:10 ehird: ReactOS already exists... 19:15:14 ais523: bwahaha 19:15:20 but I mean, while still being linux 19:15:22 ais523, hah 19:15:22 I'd probably have no /usr 19:15:24 i see EgoBot doesn't handle infinite output 19:15:32 Well, I'd have /usr, but it'd be /home. 19:15:39 oerjan, process is killed after 30 seconds. 19:15:44 hm 19:15:53 I guess it is line buffer output 19:16:01 -!- Mony has joined. 19:16:05 I'd also get rid of /boot 19:16:13 After all, it's not anything to do with booting, it's just the kernel! 19:16:39 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest38386. 19:16:47 !befunge98 aaa**k'Faaa**k, 19:16:51 AnMaster: i am not saying it's surprising 19:16:53 * AnMaster waits 19:17:02 err 19:17:02 wait 19:17:07 what does that do in 98 19:17:10 I wonder if the kernel is executable? 19:17:12 k over fetch char 19:17:12 but it's much more fun when you can do infinite lists and stuff 19:17:13 ais523: do you know? 19:17:14 I mean 19:17:25 !befunge98 ak'Fak, 19:17:41 AnMaster: Consider adding an @ 19:17:44 ehird: I don't, but I doubt it is 19:17:45 oh right 19:17:48 !befunge98 ak'Fak,@ 19:17:50 you'd have to wrap it in a container 19:17:56 and even then, it wouldn't work running in user space 19:18:03 ais523: but if you +x'd it, and put it in a container, and was in kernelspace, would it be executable? 19:18:06 ehird, how far do your funge get in mycology now btw 19:18:09 Or is it not "directly" executable? 19:18:12 !befunge98 'a,@ 19:18:12 AnMaster: stfu :p 19:18:12 kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk 19:18:16 ooh 19:18:28 ehird: well, in order to load a kernel you copy the image into memory and give it the instruction pointer 19:18:31 AnMaster: wat 19:18:32 oh 19:18:32 where did it get k from 19:18:33 that's k 19:18:34 that's the same process you need to run an executable 19:18:36 AnMaster: older program 19:18:39 ak'Fak 19:18:47 um 19:18:49 ais523: right then, my kernel would go in /bin! 19:18:50 what 19:18:58 /bin/linux or something 19:19:01 !befunge98 ak'Fak, 19:19:02 that? 19:19:07 ehird: Not /sys? 19:19:09 AnMaster: yes 19:19:14 because that should output lots of F not lots of k 19:19:14 Deewiant: Why? It's a binary. 19:19:16 aafaik 19:19:17 afaik* 19:19:28 ehird: It's a system too ;-) 19:19:34 Deewiant: Well phooey to that! 19:19:43 ehird: Binaries are processes and belong in /proc 19:19:48 Bahaha 19:19:56 Maybe I'd unify /bin and /lib 19:20:02 Since the distinction is often shaky. 19:20:08 Especially for scripts 19:20:11 /bin is for all non-textual data 19:20:19 /lib is for books, obviously 19:20:20 Ha. 19:20:23 09:53:50 anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp? 19:20:35 Deewiant: Probably I'd have /bin be all binaries & libraries. 19:20:36 ehird: just have executable shared libraries 19:20:44 as for memory, you could always do some sharing of structures 19:21:03 would be easy in haskell 19:21:40 hm 19:22:00 (just make * a constructor, essentially) 19:22:49 ehird, better idea: /sys/* /proc/* /user/*, first one is system files. All of them. Config files, program, libraries, kernel, ..., second one is for those pseudo file things needed. You should combine /proc (classical) /sys and /dev in it 19:22:53 and /user is for user data 19:23:04 no subdirectories are allowed 19:23:34 no files may be written outside those dirs (that is, /foo is invalid) 19:23:36 AnMaster: why use directories at all, if you're banning subdirs 19:23:47 actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous 19:24:21 ais523, for upgrades obviously. If user creates a file "X" and then you add X in new release you are into issues 19:24:30 with /sys/X and /user/X you have no issues. 19:24:33 clearly 19:24:36 http://pastie.org/465240.txt?key=suxdvgfmuazte7rug8rvw ← The Hirdux Hierarchy 19:24:45 Simple, effective! 19:25:03 ehird, what about boot loader 19:25:14 AnMaster: /bin/grub.bin 19:25:20 .bin means "raw executable data, yo, no headers" 19:25:27 in hirdux 19:25:51 ehird, you need to patch grub then. 19:25:55 why? 19:25:59 ehird: you should have a SIGUSR3 signal 19:26:01 you know, just in case 19:26:10 ehird, because it expects a certain layout. 19:26:10 ais523: that's up to the kernel 19:26:17 AnMaster: grub can boot non-linux OSes 19:26:20 soooooooooo 19:26:20 you can patch the kernel! 19:26:22 ehird, and linux systems doesn't work without /proc. 19:26:23 just do the multiboot stuff 19:26:24 just FYI 19:26:27 and fine, I'll have /proc too 19:26:35 ehird, oh and /sys too iirc nowdays 19:26:42 then I'll use an older kernel 19:26:42 or a bsd 19:26:45 whatever :P 19:26:46 you might get that to work without udev 19:26:47 I guess. 19:26:59 static /dev for you 19:27:01 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:27:09 i'd also need /mnt 19:27:12 but that file has the basic structure 19:27:20 ehird, what is the thing with /usr/root 19:27:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:27:40 AnMaster: Basically, /usr/foo is the same hierarchy as /, except that there's no /usr/foo/usr (duh) and /usr/foo/home is their home directory. 19:27:48 So you have /usr/anmaster/bin, etc. 19:27:52 And /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:27:58 hm 19:28:00 ~ = /usr/$USER/home 19:28:01 ehird, err 19:28:18 why is there a bin outside their home but inside their user 19:28:21 that didn't make sense 19:28:27 ais523: tell him why it makes sense 19:28:37 (/usr/foo is not a home directory, it's just that user's personal system files) 19:28:40 actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous <-- IIRC Mac OS 1 (!) had something like that 19:28:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:28:50 AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/local/bin is now /usr/anmaster/bin 19:28:58 AnMaster: DOS 1 didn't have dirs at all 19:29:02 AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/music is not /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:29:05 Greetings 19:29:08 AnMaster: see? it separates the two distinct concepts. 19:29:13 *now 19:29:14 not not 19:29:17 ehird, hm. So what should be in home then 19:29:21 ehird: err, Windows Vista works like that 19:29:22 in your opionion 19:29:23 AnMaster: /usr/anmaster/home/music 19:29:25 so that's hardly original 19:29:29 ais523: i never said it was 19:29:34 AnMaster doesn't understand it, though. 19:29:40 hm 19:29:44 AnMaster: also /usr/anmaster/code/foo 19:29:44 etc 19:29:52 ehird, that should be home/code? 19:29:55 er, yes 19:30:03 /usr/anmaster is just things like a user's local binaries, logfiles, databases, blah blah blah 19:30:03 see it didn't make any sense 19:30:11 what if I write a program called . 19:30:11 /usr/anmaster/home is their personal scratchspace 19:30:17 ais523: it exists. 19:30:18 can I use .. as a dotfile to store its data? 19:30:19 ehird, anyway /lib needs subdirs on Linux. Where do you place kernel modules now 19:30:28 you need multiple dirs 19:30:38 since you can have more than one kernel version installed 19:30:41 AnMaster: clearly, you distinguish kernel modules by the file extension 19:30:41 good at upgrades 19:30:45 AnMaster: /bin/linux/{kernel.bin,moduleblah.so,...} 19:30:49 .. 19:30:52 Hiato1: hi there 19:30:57 doesn't solve the version problem 19:31:02 * Hiato1 just wants to hear suggestions for an interesting, non-eso programming language from the chatroom. Is that so much to ask!?!?! :P 19:31:05 and 19:31:12 kernel expects a structured layout iirc 19:31:12 AnMaster: don't care about multiple versions 19:31:13 oerjan: Hello 19:31:16 and fuck the kernel :) 19:31:19 or the modutils tools rather 19:31:19 i'll use bsdddddddddddd 19:31:31 ok that uses /boot/kernel/* 19:31:32 Hiato1: i am obliged to mention haskell, despite not doing much in it... :D 19:31:39 but could be changed 19:32:06 ehird, you'd still need to patch a lot of libraries to make this work 19:32:08 also, factor was recently mentioned 19:32:09 like dynamic linker 19:32:11 and what not 19:32:21 don't caaaaaaare they can suck my diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick 19:32:24 they suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck 19:32:25 (never tried it) 19:32:25 :|| 19:32:25 um 19:32:29 just tell it that /bin is /lib. 19:32:39 oerjan: right, though I've looked at it. I was thinking imperative, having just discovered Io, but it seems to have slowed to nothing in terms of dev/activity 19:32:48 -!- M0ny has quit (Connection timed out). 19:32:52 hrmm... will hcek it out 19:32:52 ehird, at the very least you need to patch the build system and some files to do that. 19:32:58 Hiato1: factor is quite imperative, but stack based 19:33:00 #concatenative 19:33:03 haskell is fun though. 19:33:09 roger 19:33:14 Hiato1, erlang is nice too 19:33:16 D is traditional-style imperative 19:33:17 yay, concatenative langs 19:33:22 erlang is not nice >:( 19:33:38 also, you should learn Prolog if you never have done before 19:33:38 Hiato1, concurrent and easily distributed. Functional language. 19:33:48 ehird, you just hate it because I like it. 19:33:51 I think every programmer deserves to know Prolog, even if they never use it or don't like it 19:33:56 ehird, you *always* do that. 19:34:01 AnMaster: no, I've disliked erlang for a while 19:34:08 its concurrency model isn't great imo. 19:34:10 ehird, so I should learn haskell just to watch you hate it. 19:34:17 ehird, better than shared memory at least. 19:34:20 AnMaster: are you listening to me? 19:34:21 hrm.. well.. not exactly writing a complex system, just looking for romething fun to play with 19:34:22 but you have an even better 19:34:23 or? 19:34:27 i don't give a damn about what languages you use 19:34:32 and yes, I do, several 19:34:35 see stm 19:34:41 Hiato1: definitely I'd recommend Prolog, then, making a complex system in it probably wouldn't work well 19:34:46 ehird, such as 19:34:51 "see stm" 19:34:53 heh, ok :P 19:34:56 evidently you're -not- listening 19:34:57 but just like Perl's good for text-processing one-liners, Prolog's good for puzzle-solving ten-liners 19:34:58 ehird, stm being 19:35:02 AnMaster: JFGI 19:35:02 "statement"? 19:35:09 I guess stm is short for statement. 19:35:23 Software Transactional Memory? 19:35:30 ehird, I googled stm. Gives "STM‎ - STMicroelectronics N.V. (ADR) (NYSE)‎" 19:35:38 and "Société de transport de Montréal - [ Translate this page ]" 19:35:38 ais523: ok, great. But it clumsy and over complex for normal tasks, right? I mean, that would be nice 19:35:40 and lots more 19:35:51 AnMaster: you've told me to JFGI for things that don't give a relevant first result and complained when I complained 19:35:55 so there it stands 19:36:04 Hiato1: it's a bit wordy when trying to do normal tasks, and the standard library isn't all that good, but it's not terrible 19:36:25 ehird, you did that first though. 19:36:30 So was just following your style 19:36:47 ehird, at least I never linked non-existent wikipedia articles. 19:36:47 ais523: ok, sounds promising. Know any good resources or should I ask "the g"? 19:37:22 Hiato1: it helps to have someone who knows the language to learn it from, IME 19:37:38 you can grab a compiler+interpreter+REPL like gprolog without much trouble, though 19:37:52 ais523: right, so IRC channel's the way to go then 19:37:58 could be 19:38:27 you'll want to grab the docs for your interp, just to remember the names of standard library stuff that you use 19:38:39 sure, will do 19:38:39 or just write them by hand, almost the whole of Prolog apart from I/O can be written without using the library at all 19:38:45 -!- louzer has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:38:51 * Hiato1 checks out wiki article 19:38:59 now that's a nice feature 19:39:09 # ls -l /usr/lib/libavcall.la 19:39:09 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15 Jan 6 11:54 /usr/lib/libavcall.la -> ../libavcall.la 19:39:10 fun 19:39:11 wonder why 19:39:17 it makes no sense. 19:39:21 broken symlink 19:39:21 Hiato1: also, Scala or Ocaml for languages that are combined object-oriented and (impure) functional, with advanced static types 19:40:00 hrmm.. righty'o but I'm currently intreuged with prolog, Io, and factor 19:40:10 they all look hideously complex OD 19:40:19 *XD 19:40:23 Io is very simple. 19:40:26 It's also, unfortunately, shit. 19:40:38 Hiato1: well then do scheme 19:40:42 I learnt Ocaml for a University project, it's an interesting imperative/functional mix; I'd suggest it isn't a good language to learn, but it's a good language to use once you've learnt imperative and functional concepts on a different lang 19:40:47 oerjan: *R5RS 19:41:12 ehird: i guess R6RS _did_ get hideously complex? 19:41:17 no shit 19:41:17 ais523: interesting. some people say it's a good link from imperative languages to more functional ones 19:41:21 ehird: aha, I see 19:41:36 Gracenotes: I hate to look at the programming style of people who tried to learn OCaml like that 19:41:48 ais523: right. Well I'm learning functional witn Haskell 19:41:54 hm 19:42:03 ais523: heh. Programming style in what language? OCaml? 19:42:04 I personally program it almost entirely functionally, just using things like imperative globals or exceptions or whatever when they're more useful 19:42:08 Hiato1: a good choice 19:42:09 Gracenotes: yes 19:42:48 I should probably make hirdux. 19:43:02 strings -a /usr/lib/opengl/nvidia/*/*.so | grep -F 'GCC: (GNU)' | sort -n | uniq is interesting 19:43:05 very interesting 19:43:10 ais523: well, Ocaml was my first static functional language 19:43:16 they used lots of different versions: 19:43:25 oerjan: did you know a dynamic functional language before that, though? 19:43:27 if so, it's not so bad 19:43:30 (i guess i mostly knew scheme beforehand) 19:43:31 The installer consisting of making a package manager configuration file that points to /mnt/newsystem as the root and running it with a bunch of packages to install, hopefully :P 19:43:45 GCC 3.2, GCC 3.3.3 (SuSE), GCC 3.4.6 (altstack), GCC 4.1.1 (altstack) 19:43:53 no idea what those "altstack" are 19:44:59 der alte stack 19:46:17 AnMaster: oh, and IWC :D 19:46:27 oerjan, read it hours ago. 19:46:36 you always say that 19:47:58 if i wanted to spoil it for you, don't you think i would have included some actual _content_? 19:49:13 true 19:49:43 -!- Ilari has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- Slereah has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- EgoBot has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- ineiros has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- ehird has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:43 -!- olsner has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:44 -!- Dewio has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:49:51 oerjan, anyway, I usually read it within an hour after it is updated. 19:50:53 so do i if i'm online 19:50:55 -!- olsner has joined. 19:50:55 -!- Dewio has joined. 19:51:04 -!- ehird has joined. 19:51:53 -!- Ilari has joined. 19:51:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:51:53 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:51:53 -!- ineiros has joined. 19:52:01 except today i got derailed 19:52:04 hello there 19:52:51 hello here 19:54:28 halo thar 19:54:45 hi 19:54:55 I suppose making Hirdux wouldn't actually be hard if I compromise with the hierarchy :P 19:55:07 hollow tar 19:55:52 * oerjan interpreted that as "Hurdux", and thought that was a suitably insane idea 19:56:00 yay! 19:56:10 ehird, you must base it on Hurd. 19:56:11 clearly 19:56:16 AnMaster: AAAAAA 19:56:48 where the -ux is from linux, not generic unix 19:57:09 ehird, or at least do something mad like non-matching kernel and user land (exceptions allowed are tools to load/unload/list kernel modules, and some glue code in libc as needed) 19:57:11 like 19:57:17 BSD userland 19:57:19 Linux kernel 19:57:25 BSD userland w/ linux kernel is mundane and done before. 19:57:31 ehird, the reverse too 19:57:33 what about 19:57:39 Solaris userland with Hurd 19:57:45 bsd userland, darwin libc, hurd kernel, 19:57:56 Hurd is an unacceptable monostrosity 19:57:58 libc is of course part of userlang 19:58:00 land* 19:58:00 but 19:58:01 hm 19:58:04 ok then 19:58:10 Use the NT kernel then 19:58:23 ehird: what are the acceptable monstrosities? 19:58:25 Patch the binary if you run into problems 19:58:26 solaris userland, glibc, Plan9 kernel 19:58:28 what about that 19:58:31 oerjan: cthulhu 19:58:41 AnMaster: Fun fact: fun thing+fun thing not always = fun thing 19:58:58 Usually a un idea, though 19:59:02 hmm 19:59:06 ehird, that is an unfun fack 19:59:06 How'd I miss the 'f' there 19:59:07 * ehird 's slackware greets him with: 19:59:13 cthulhux, with non-euclidean file system 19:59:13 Crucifixes are sexy because there's a naked man on them. 19:59:16 -- Madonna 19:59:17 Deewiant, oh, so it wasn't french then 19:59:19 Thanks, Slackware! 19:59:27 oerjan: speaking of which 19:59:34 # OERJANIX/BOOT 19:59:35 ehird: that's quite a fortune quote 19:59:38 # UPGRADE -FULL 19:59:43 $ # wow, this new oerjanix is modern 19:59:46 $ cthulhu-scanner 19:59:54 $ # yay it's gone 19:59:58 $ gnuverse-simulator 19:59:59 oh that 20:00:03 > ;; Oh god it uses Guile now. 20:00:04 I almost forgot about it 20:00:11 ehird, hahaha 20:00:11 > (set! fine-structure "a pound of pennies") 20:00:13 > (simulate) 20:00:18 oh my 20:00:32 oh wait 20:00:33 ^C 20:00:36 ehird, that was like months ago 20:00:37 > (set! message-style 'old-uppercase) 20:00:40 > ;; can't loose that 20:00:42 > (simulate) 20:00:45 oerjan: gogogo 20:00:49 *lose 20:01:13 SHEESH 20:01:26 Uh oh 20:01:27 ^C 20:01:29 > (quit) 20:01:39 $ cthulhu-scanner # I think we're infected by the sheesh-cthulhu virus 20:01:46 sigh 20:02:01 AnMaster: you don't care? what bad sysadministration! 20:02:19 ehird, of course I do. But I would do a clean reinstall in case it includes a rootkit 20:02:34 AnMaster: Oh, I have a far more fun way to fix cthulhus. 20:02:36 oerjan: scan results? 20:02:45 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 20:02:46 THERE ARE NO GREAT OLD ONES IN THE SYSTEM 20:02:53 oerjan: Well, make some then. 20:02:57 err 20:02:58 what 20:02:59 NO! 20:03:04 AnMaster: Ssh. 20:03:08 This will be nice 20:03:09 . 20:03:19 ehird, /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin 20:03:39 no clue what it is. But ssh always installs such a file 20:03:47 on every system I used 20:03:53 I don't have one. 20:03:54 sometimes /usr/share/Ssh.bin 20:04:11 Deewiant, /usr/share/Ssh.bin on arch 20:04:12 Ah, that I do have 20:04:19 # file /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin 20:04:20 /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin: DBase 3 data file (507582464 records) 20:04:23 no clue 20:04:24 at all 20:04:31 that's a big database! 20:04:43 oerjan: Well, I'll just assume that the old ones lied and said they weren't there. 20:04:45 Now then! 20:04:49 ehird, it isn't a db 20:04:49 $ gnuverse 20:04:53 file misindenfies it 20:05:09 > (forever (thread (create-universe :old-ones #f :ehird-has-a-million-pounds #t))) 20:05:11 BUT THERE _ARE_ NO GREAT OLD ONES, THIS IS A _NEW_ SYSTEM 20:05:20 > ;; By the omega point hypothesis, we are in one of those universes. 20:05:22 > (quit) 20:05:43 ehird, check your account balance 20:05:47 AnMaster: Google suggests that it's for smart cards. 20:05:51 Deewiant, hm ok 20:05:52 AnMaster: I'M RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 20:06:00 oerjan: Well, okay, we're clean now. 20:06:01 ehird, sure... 20:06:03 $ gnuverse 20:06:11 no 20:06:13 -!- Guest38386 has changed nick to Mony. 20:06:14 hm 20:06:16 > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi)) 20:06:17 -!- Mony has changed nick to M0ny. 20:06:19 > (simulate) 20:06:28 ;; that'll give the mathematicians a fright 20:06:29 ehird, you are bored I guess. 20:06:44 Why not go work on your befunge implementation 20:06:54 Too bored ;) 20:07:01 Deewiant, I'm planning for cfunge 0.4.1 tomorrow. btw 20:07:13 Deewiant, just thought I'd let you know. 20:07:25 POUND OF PENNIES ARE MISSING 20:07:42 ehird, hey. Give them back to him. 20:07:50 oerjan: ^Z 20:07:54 that is where the million pounds were taken from. 20:07:56 clearly. 20:08:00 STOPPED 20:08:02 > (set! fine-structure "million poundsworth of pennies") 20:08:05 > (continue) 20:08:20 what can't science do? 20:08:26 UNIVERSE CREATED 20:08:31 ehird, ^Z would suspend guile not the program right 20:08:36 so that wouldn't work 20:08:37 afaik 20:08:40 RAMPANT PENNY INFLATION 20:08:44 AnMaster: DO NOT ARGUE WITH GNUVERSE 20:08:50 ehird, :/ 20:09:50 oerjan, that was a really bad pun 20:10:11 oerjan: i'm scared that the "pi-god" will kill mathematics 20:10:14 please provide an update 20:10:30 INFLATION PERIOD ENDS 20:10:50 oerjan: (note that i did > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi))) 20:10:53 oh my, we are set for economic jokes 20:10:59 AnMaster: yep. 20:11:18 I'll go code on cfunge or something... 20:11:39 GIANT BULL FOUND IN SPACE 20:11:47 oerjan: Bullshit! 20:12:04 BULLSHIT FORMS PLANETS 20:13:25 and then 20:13:26 that would explain so much 20:13:27 AnMaster: no more economics 20:14:01 sigh 20:14:04 * AnMaster goes back coding again 20:14:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 20:14:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:15:34 UNIVERSE ENTERS RECESSION. BULL IMPLODES DUE TO GRAVITY OF SITUATION. 20:15:43 :D 20:16:17 OpenSSH README.smartcard: "To enable -- load the Java Cardlet to the Cyberflex card -- sectok> jload /usr/libdata/ssh/Ssh.bin" 20:16:19 Deewiant, actually, it might take a day or two more 20:16:19 That's what it's for. 20:16:37 depending on how much work I have to do for gcc 4.4 20:16:47 in case of new warnings or whatever 20:16:53 gcc 4.4 is still compiling atm 20:17:26 PLANET EVOLVES SAPIENT BEARS 20:17:31 oerjan: SHIT. 20:18:03 I have a book like that 20:18:10 It's called "The right to arm bears" 20:18:13 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah. 20:18:50 CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS 20:19:15 groan 20:20:51 MAINLY BASED ON TRADING STAG MEAT 20:22:10 GENETIC ENGINEERING GREATLY INCREASES MEAT PRODUCTION 20:22:44 ALSO KNOWN AS STAGFLATION 20:22:49 CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS groan <-- IDGI 20:23:02 oerjan: GROAN 20:23:12 the last one I get though 20:23:16 AnMaster: The terms bull market and bear market describe upward and downward movements respectively and can be used to describe either the market as a whole or specific sectors and securities (stocks). 20:23:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_trends#Bear_market 20:23:23 ehird, aha 20:23:57 SPACE TRAVEL INVENTED 20:24:41 FTL TRAVEL INVENTED. USED TO INVESTIGATE NEARBY BLACK HOLE. 20:24:47 For the lose travel 20:25:39 GIANT BULL RETRIEVED, REVOLUTIONIZING MEAT PRODUCTION 20:26:18 UNIVERSE LEAVES RECESSION 20:26:25 * pikhq listens to "Dark Side of the Moon" 20:26:39 pikhq, sounds like a reference to a TP novel 20:26:50 AnMaster: sounds like a pink floyd album. 20:26:51 which it is. 20:26:55 It's a Pink Floyd album. 20:26:58 ehird, that too I guess. 20:26:59 Just got it. 20:27:11 I didn't know about that though :P 20:27:22 AnMaster: pratchett book: 1976. dsotm: 1973. 20:27:35 ehird, so it is the other way around then 20:27:36 and "dark side of the moon" as a phrase is older. 20:27:41 AnMaster: no, it's not any way around 20:27:43 or possibly not connected at all 20:27:46 indeed 20:29:09 UNIVERSE ENDS IN THE BIG RIP-OFF 20:29:11 ehird, did you know that the city of "Sto Lat" in the Discoworld happens to be the name of a Polish traditional song. I read some interview with TP where he said that completely unitentional. 20:29:13 AnMaster: I'm surprised you didn't know about the album; it's generally considered one of the most known/significant albums of all time (maybe on that scale for "modern cultural icon" too) 20:29:19 and no, I didn't 20:29:20 unintentional* 20:29:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sto_lat 20:29:37 I don't think I've ever heard of the album 20:29:52 Deewiant: Seriously? 20:29:56 Yep 20:30:07 I'm amazed 20:30:10 I'm somewhat known for not knowing things 20:30:33 http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Sto_Lat mentions it too. But not the "unintentional" bit. 20:30:46 It's one of the best-known albums. 20:30:50 ... Period. 20:30:58 I'm not into known music 20:31:05 It stayed in Billboard's top 200 albums list for about 13 years... 20:31:05 now if sto helit had a hidden meaning we might start doubting him 20:31:15 oerjan, no idea if it does. 20:31:19 pikhq: it's one of the best known items of modern culture... 20:31:29 * ehird runs xdm. /me's eyes burn out 20:31:32 ehird: Yeah, definitely. 20:31:48 CRISS CROSS BLACK/WHITE AS FORM OF: GRAY, TORTURE 20:32:58 ah, so "sto lat" means a hundred years 20:33:31 "in which the subject is wished a life one hundred years ("sto lat") long." 20:33:37 i see the polish don't have very high ambitions 20:33:51 pikhq, um 20:33:55 xdm isn't that bad 20:33:56 I mean 20:33:59 I have seen worse 20:34:05 He wasn't talking about xdm :P 20:34:05 like CDE or motif. 20:34:09 ah 20:34:10 also, xdm IS terrible 20:34:17 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png 20:34:19 ehird, yes. Worse than twm even 20:34:20 zoom in on that gray 20:34:22 "gray" 20:34:26 it seriously kills your eyes 20:34:29 it hurts to look at 20:34:47 ehird, that is the default bg colour of X with no window manager stared 20:34:49 just do 20:34:50 um 20:34:53 i know 20:34:54 * AnMaster looks for the command 20:34:55 it's horrible 20:35:01 Zoom out and it looks prettier 20:35:12 xsetroot -bg 20:35:21 I don't know what format is in 20:35:41 English works to an extent 20:35:50 xsetroot -solid 20:35:51 too 20:35:58 takes a colour parameter too 20:36:41 Deewiant, what if you want #E6E6F8 for example 20:36:55 which is what I prefer for bg colour 20:37:00 I don't know 20:37:01 on this screen 20:37:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:38:15 rgb:e6/e6/f8 20:38:58 Either that or X11 color names. 20:39:24 lifthrasiir, there? 20:39:27 yes. 20:39:40 lifthrasiir, in my tests cfunge is about twice as fast on that example file 20:39:51 hmm... 20:39:55 lifthrasiir, Release build of cfunge with 32 bit cells 20:39:59 compared to rcfunge 20:40:02 "For backward compatiblity" also "#e6e6f8" color specification should work. 20:40:04 rcfunge2* 20:40:21 cfunge: real 0m7.166s 20:40:28 rcfunge: real 0m14.274s 20:40:32 average of 10 runs each 20:40:42 no command line options 20:41:04 cfunge: 32bit, exact-bounds, concurrency 20:41:13 hm I should make a build string thingy or such 20:41:24 so you can get all that info from cfunge -f in one line 20:41:27 easy to read and such 20:42:07 * ehird replaces xdm with wdm 20:42:18 much better 20:42:28 anyone used icewm? 20:42:32 o/ 20:42:42 Deewiant: how can I make its menus not require clicking to open? 20:42:44 it's irritating 20:42:47 I went Ice -> Flux -> Open 20:42:54 open? 20:42:56 box 20:43:05 ugh, I hate *box 20:43:27 Can't remember how to config that 20:43:46 IceWM is very boxy IMO 20:44:06 IceWM is less Cool-For-The-Sake-Of-Unusability-I'm-So-Minimalist-Yo 20:44:21 Which might be why I didn't like it ;-) 20:44:40 I can't actually remember, I had some small issue with each of Ice and Flux 20:45:04 Changing window managers every now and then is good for you; keeps you from getting into a rut. 20:45:30 fizzie: why, which do you use? 20:45:31 Meh, good ruts are fine 20:46:07 ehird: Oh, I've been using awesome lately. But I've been through so many I couldn't reconstruct the complete list anyhow. 20:46:39 The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color. 20:48:15 I did consider trying out Ion, but, well, this is directly quoted from Ion's FAQ re Xinerama support: "Xinerama this, Xinerama that, baawaawaa!! Too bad. I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement." 20:48:31 :-) 20:48:35 Gotta love Tuomo 20:48:39 fizzie: Tuomov is a retard; he's switching to Windows. 20:48:44 Because he had some problems with an old Ubuntu. 20:48:51 His blag is quite lollerific 20:49:01 I wonder what he's going to do with Ion on Windows 20:49:11 Deewiant: Run Linux in a VM, I think he said. 20:49:13 With Ion. 20:49:13 blag = short for "weblag", the amount of time it takes to access a website due to internet latency? 20:49:24 ais523: Let's just say yes. 20:49:58 ehird: I wonder how running Linux in a WM is supposed to be an improvement over running it natively 20:50:06 Deewiant: Why are you applying logic 20:50:11 The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color. <-- ? 20:50:14 the one I mentioned? 20:50:17 or what 20:50:41 Yes, that one. 20:50:50 well that isn't very close IMO 20:51:06 ~ 20:51:52 "-- it [the Ion license] is targeted against distributions – the middle-men, the equivalents of the big record companies in FOSSphere – that have become far too powerful, wielding de facto central control over easily installable software --" such vitriol. 20:52:04 lifthrasiir, so how is your compiled then. 20:52:24 AnMaster: with default options. no change applied. 20:52:29 hm 20:52:42 lifthrasiir, set the build type to RELEASE and try again 20:52:56 maybe I should try to figure out how to make that default 20:54:03 fizzie: he's also threatened to license it under a license which requires packagers to upgrade it 30 or so days after every release or remove it 20:54:07 because debian had a version a month or two old 20:54:27 Yes, well: "The Linux/FOSS distributions are such powerful entities that will abuse authors (and users!) as long as they remain in power." 20:54:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:54:57 AnMaster: okay, it is twice faster now. 20:55:16 lifthrasiir, by changing to "Release"? 20:55:17 ehird: I'm sure that wouldn't be DFSG-compliant 20:55:19 yes. 20:55:20 instead of empty 20:55:21 hm 20:55:22 -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release, right? 20:55:26 lifthrasiir, yes 20:55:26 ais523: it wouldn't eb. 20:55:28 *be 20:55:36 lifthrasiir, I tend to use ccmake though. 20:55:38 anyway 20:55:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:55:43 should figure out how to make default 20:55:46 he said debian would have to move it into the non-free repository, but i'd just leave the old version or remove it altogether 20:55:47 if I was debian 20:56:04 even funnier, fork the old version 20:56:10 *iirc* wesnoth does it 20:56:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:56:20 "(They might not bother: the trend seems to be to force everyone to use Xft shite and blurred fonts.)" 20:56:34 this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY! 20:57:00 Mm, IceWM+gtk theme mist+Debian is quite comfortable. 20:57:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 20:57:10 Ion3 is in debian non-free now. 20:57:21 If only I could hover on IceWM menus to make them view. 20:58:04 Also maybe smooth out the dis— you know, I could rewrite ionwm with gtk in a few hours, probably :P 21:00:26 anyone know what that pretty package installer thing is? 21:00:27 not synaptic 21:00:30 the more lightweight one 21:00:38 aptitude? 21:00:41 no 21:00:41 graphical 21:00:44 ais523: ubuntu's "add/remove" 21:00:50 debian has it too 21:00:52 by default 21:00:55 oh, I've known it at least twice 21:00:59 but forgotten each time 21:01:01 :D 21:02:05 Is the problem Gnome-related? 21:02:06 Yes. Goodbye. 21:02:07 — Ion bug reporting page 21:02:15 Did you run any Gnome software in your session (especially gdm or gnome-settings-daemon)? 21:02:16 Yes. Remove all Gnome software from your system. Then go to next step. 21:02:19 this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY! 21:02:20 ooh 21:02:27 that is opposite of what you think 21:02:28 damn tuomov is funny 21:02:29 :) 21:02:33 who said it 21:02:37 tuomov 21:02:40 ion author 21:02:42 aha 21:02:44 ehird: gnome-app-install 21:02:55 How obvious 21:04:58 -!- MizardX- has joined. 21:05:10 Maybe Hirdux will end up as Debian + a shell script to install some stuff :P 21:06:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:06:25 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 21:07:14 ais523, I'm about to break IFFI again... 21:07:29 ah, ok, I don't mind 21:07:31 ais523, to be able to provide useful -v option somewhat like gcc -v to check compile flags. 21:07:42 why would that break IFFI? I don't use your main 21:07:43 I mean, for gcc itself then 21:07:52 ais523, /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/main.c:196: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘CFUN_USER_CFLAGS’ 21:07:55 stuff like that I assume 21:07:59 ah, ok 21:08:04 well I could add some #ifndef IFFI 21:08:05 I guess. 21:08:09 or whatever 21:08:21 so you could skip that completely 21:08:24 there aren't any useful command-line options with IFFI as-is 21:08:54 ais523, true. But you still need parts of main.c. Since some variables are defined there. 21:09:32 but yes I could ifdef them out when ICK_IS_IFFI or whatever is defined (either ICK_* or CFUN_IS_IFFI should be the name of the define) 21:10:12 ais523, you decide ^ 21:10:24 Deewiant: you know how you said a desktop environment is needless? 21:10:25 wrong 21:10:42 if you don't have one you get to use 5 billion incompatible setting programs 21:10:46 woop woop 21:10:47 AnMaster: CFUN_ would be fine, define names don't come up in user code 21:10:57 right 21:10:58 I don't use setting programs, I use setting files :-P 21:11:10 Deewiant: Gee, that sure sounds fun. 21:11:20 ais523, CFUN_* FUNGE_* and CF_* are all used in cfunge. Or no prefix at all. Depends on how old that code is. 21:11:26 Nowdays I use CFUN_* 21:11:27 ehird: What do you config so much that it matters? 21:11:39 Nothing much, but it is irritatin 21:11:40 g 21:11:44 I find it hard to take this stuff seriously when terms like "the AA fascist movement" are used. 21:11:59 (When speaking of people who like anti-aliasing in their fonts.) 21:12:17 fizzie: :-) 21:12:24 fizzie, I assume he has one of those 300 dpi monitors then 21:12:33 where AA actually would be bad. 21:12:35 AnMaster: No, he just things edges are edgy. 21:12:38 *thinks 21:12:44 Grr, gksudo sux since you lose theme settings 21:12:44 hah 21:12:55 AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there." 21:12:58 ehird, why are you running graphical programs as root!? 21:13:01 that's wrong. 21:13:03 AnMaster: synaptic, etc. 21:13:06 insecure 21:13:10 lol 21:13:14 lots of not well reviewed code 21:13:15 only as insecure as running a cli program as root. 21:13:17 like X 21:13:23 X should not be run as root 21:13:27 (sadly it must atm) 21:13:41 (but it is likely to change in the future, thanks to GEM and kernel mode switching) 21:14:00 AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there." <-- what 21:14:12 AnMaster: He's mad. 21:14:19 fontcube 21:14:21 What's debian's nonfree repository called again? 21:14:27 ehird, nonfree 21:14:28 iirc 21:14:33 tried that. 21:14:36 ok 21:15:01 "You're expected to sacrifice the present on the altar of the future, and to sacrifice personal ergonomics on the altar of fads and techno-high priests." 21:15:12 It is very fontcubeish. 21:15:33 When you antialias, you're sacrificing the present on the altar of the future!1 21:16:56 Why is it so ugly? 21:16:56 a) It is not. Are you sure you're not on a bad trip from the aqua in teletubbyland? 21:16:58 — FAQ 21:17:42 aarrgh 21:17:45 gcc compile FAILED 21:17:47 (/)%(/)&%!#¤)&(#¤% 21:17:52 &°·̂‡†̂̀‡̂%7ˆÞt675 21:17:55 checking for suffix of object files... configure: error: in `/home/anmaster/gcc/build/i686-pc-linux-gnu/libgcc': 21:17:55 configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile 21:17:55 See `config.log' for more details. 21:17:59 stage2 21:18:09 fizzie: man, footnote 1 21:18:19 he actually ties antialiasing into being un eco friendly 21:18:20 :D 21:18:48 Yes, they're building separate power plants for all the CPU cycles consumed by "the blurring". 21:18:51 ehird: That's quite impressive. 21:19:29 ok 21:19:30 why 21:19:37 did gcc ignore -rpath 21:19:40 Also, I suspect that these people have only seen very, very bad anti-aliasing. 21:19:45 (read: Windows) 21:19:53 pikhq: No, he complains about Xft. 21:19:56 Tuomov is just insane, man. 21:20:04 OS X antialiasing would probably drive him insane 21:20:10 ais523, any idea 21:20:11 OMG IT'S AS CLEAR AS PRINT!! ANTI-PIXEL BLURRING EVIL! 21:20:16 ALL MY BOOKS USE BITMAP FONTS 21:20:16 Huh. I was under the impression that Xft actually did decent anti-aliasing. 21:20:23 AnMaster: no 21:20:26 pikhq: Eh, it's alright. Not as good as OS X's. 21:20:32 ais523, I believe it ignores LDFLAGS somewhere 21:20:42 pikhq: Its subpixel rendering in particular is quite horrific 21:21:03 Though OS X handles fonts not designed with it in mind much better. 21:21:21 AnMaster: gcc's configure is terrible, you'll go mad if you look at it 21:21:29 Freetype handles Helvetica nicely 21:21:32 And bistream 21:21:34 That's about it :-P 21:21:36 so much so that even though it did everything C-INTERCAL needed, I wrote my own method of doing it rather than using gcc's 21:21:40 ehird, that's because of patent law. 21:21:45 *bitstream 21:21:57 It can't use *good* auto-hinting, because that's patented. 21:21:58 pikhq: I've ran the HIGHLY ILLEGAL IN THE US patched freetype. 21:22:03 It is not better. 21:22:04 Ah. 21:22:16 Well, then. 21:22:17 The autohinter, in particular, produces consistently worse results than the interpreter. 21:22:53 There's a reason I run Helvetica, Bitstream, and Lucida. ;) 21:23:34 -!- Hiato1 has quit ("Leaving."). 21:23:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 21:25:08 I'd better write my nice WM. 21:25:13 Hirmanaged. 21:25:16 Catchy. 21:25:16 ais523, seems I can set BOOT_LDFLAGS 21:25:18 to override 21:25:21 ah, ok 21:25:28 and then wait a few more hours 21:25:30 for a recompile 21:25:30 there are so many steps in compiling gcc that there are a lot of options 21:25:38 http://gcc.gnu.org/install/build.html 21:25:41 mentions BOOT_CFLAGS 21:25:50 a grep shows there is a corresponding LDFLAGS one 21:26:00 Shouldn't be exceedingly hard. Draw a simple border around a window -- mimicking Metacity's Mist theme -- with some simple buttons, double-click-to-maximize behavior and drag-to-move. 21:26:29 Then, write a panel application that displays a bog standard menu with blah blah launchers, some application shortcuts and a window list, still with gtk. 21:27:37 Easy. In theory. 21:27:47 Unfortunately, in practice, X. 21:27:56 Yep. 21:28:02 Especially since I want to do it non-reparenting. 21:28:04 That could turn out hard. 21:29:04 Nom nom nom. 21:29:47 no u 21:29:54 :k 21:30:30 I'm sorry, but I own patent #54372895472543: "IRC Nicks Beginning with the letters 'G' then 'R'". You will have to change your nick or pay me royalties. 21:31:01 IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings 21:31:19 ais523: really? 21:31:29 yes, although luckily it's more specific than that 21:32:37 "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name. 21:32:44 Anyone else have an appreciation for the gtk/metacity theme Mist? It really does make gtk quite the nice. 21:34:53 ehird: it's included in Ubuntu Jaunty, but I'm not sure about it 21:35:09 ais523: you just can't handle the minimalism! 21:35:24 You're, um, sacrificing usability at the altar of the future. I think 21:35:41 Anything with a title bar is not minimalist. 21:35:51 GregorR: I already own patent 0xDEADBEEF: "Nicknames representable only using ASCII", though. You violate that. ;) 21:36:01 fizzie: The gtk theme is separate from the metacity one. 21:36:02 Erm. 21:36:06 Using only, rather. 21:36:10 Although my mega wm will imitate the window decoration style; it is rather tiny 21:36:22 I was having weird problems with my credit card, so I went to my bank and they "fixed" it, then I charged something to it, and now they've canceled it X_X 21:36:36 That's one definition for "fixed". 21:37:16 -!- tombom has joined. 21:37:59 fizzie: have you seen the Mist window decoration? It's just a tiny blue line with the window title and the three ubiquitous buttons as boring white symbols :-P 21:38:06 IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name. 21:38:06 err 21:38:07 what 21:38:08 It's not tinywm minimalist, but it's minimalist 21:38:11 how are they equal 21:38:30 Using Lotus Notes during the meeting is the "de-focusing activity" they're suppressing. 21:38:30 and doesn't IBM develop Lotus * 21:38:31 AnMaster: the patent was about Lotus Notes, and how to prevent people using it during a meeting 21:38:44 oh 21:38:47 the joke, of course, is that if IBM patent not using Lotus Notes, everyone else has to use it 21:38:53 but what is Lotus Notes for. 21:39:02 ais523, is it real 21:39:20 yes, it is 21:39:22 http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1="20090063996".PGNR.&OS=DN/20090063996&RS=DN/20090063996 21:39:25 ... 21:39:28 it's an office suite, I think 21:39:33 is it based on OpenOffice? I can't remember 21:39:45 ... 21:39:47 and it isn't first april 21:39:51 Lotus Notes is e-mail and calendaring and such. 21:39:53 Lotus notes is ancient 21:39:53 that it was filed on 21:39:58 ehird: ah,o k 21:40:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:40:05 ais523: 1989 ancient 21:40:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:40:28 ais523, did they do it as a joke 21:40:33 I doubt it 21:40:42 I don't see anything particularly joky about it 21:40:52 just because it's possible to joke /about/ it doesn't make it in itself a joke 21:40:59 ah 21:41:12 ibm filing a patent as a joke? 21:41:16 But really, what they patented is just a system that lets you automagically (and enforcedly) disable some "distracting" features during meetings. 21:41:24 stupidest thing I've ever heard 21:41:28 It's only jokeable if you deliberately misinterpret it; like most things are, I guess. 21:43:09 yes 21:43:16 Patent language is quite a joke on its own, though. "A method for the suppressing computing system activities during a scheduled event, the method comprising: creating an invitation for an event at an event scheduling application executing at a primary computing system, the event invitation comprising an exclusive attendance event acceptance category and a non-exclusive attendance event acceptance category; .." continuing ad nauseam. 21:43:54 "-- accepting the event invitation at the event scheduling application executing at the secondary computing system, where in the instance that the event is accepted as an exclusive attendance event then communication and non-event scheduling application executing activities within the secondary computing system will be suspended upon the initiation of the event, and in the instance that the event is accepted as a non-exclusive attendance event a message is ge 21:43:54 nerated and delivered to the primary event scheduling application reporting that the event has been accepted as a non-exclusive event --" 21:44:05 All that without any punctuation in it. 21:44:17 Wait, there's a couple of commas. 21:45:53 The description parts usually seem human-readable, but the patent-claims-part is like in some sort of crude mockery of English. 21:47:37 Sadly, our patent system has completely and utterly failed at its purpose. 21:47:54 pikhq: It's about as misguided as copyright law... 21:48:08 You know, publishing how an invention works so that after some time, it's part of the body of human knowledge? 21:48:30 Yeah, now we just publish some bullshit that could possibly describe the invention and then sue everyone. 21:49:53 ehird: Except that copyright reform would be quite a bit more radical. ;) 22:17:30 Deewiant, 22:17:33 http://pastebin.ca/1409795 22:17:36 what do you think? 22:17:41 I plan to add some way to get revision too 22:17:58 (if a trunk build) 22:18:25 Sure 22:19:45 Compiled on is wrong atm 22:19:59 ah typoed 22:20:25 Compiled on: Linux 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 (x86_64) 22:20:25 ah much better 22:20:34 now to find how to get compiler version from cmake too 22:31:25 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead."). 22:35:41 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:36:45 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:46:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:46:44 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:47:34 GCC's preprocessor have computed includes 22:47:35 ais523, ^ 22:47:37 fun 22:47:50 heh 22:47:55 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Computed-Includes.html#Computed-Includes 22:48:01 actuallyt 22:48:03 actually* 22:48:15 I was looking for an official list of GCC predefined macros 22:48:24 it seems to define __VERSION__ to what I need. 22:48:40 but I'm not sure it is official or not 22:53:02 ;_; 22:53:22 Gracenotes, what. 22:54:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:55:47 mm so i had some ideas 22:56:21 that i might try to implement 22:56:26 not linguistic? 22:56:38 indeed! 22:56:45 ah 22:57:07 but, ironically, the implementation would be inspired by something from linguistics ;p 22:57:16 so the idea is something like this: 22:58:03 an expression like the following pseudohaskell: _ ++ "foo" ++ _ 22:58:31 would become the lambda \a.\b.(a ++ "foo" ++ b) 22:58:52 an expression like: _a ++ "foo" ++ _a 22:59:06 would become the lambda \a.(a ++ "foo" ++ a) 22:59:20 I think Scala has approximately-if-not-exactly that 22:59:31 really? interesting. 22:59:31 Of course not Haskell syntax, but the _s. 22:59:40 well 22:59:53 the _'s arent supposed to be haskell's "these dont matter" variables 23:00:11 rather, theyre a sort of "i dont care about the name of this variable" variable 23:00:16 Yep, I know. 23:00:21 ok 23:00:22 Or I understood, rather. 23:01:15 i figure the way I'd do it tho is like 23:01:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:01:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:01:36 have some sort of type-shifting operations 23:01:52 so that _ by itself is just type t 23:02:02 meaning, whatever type the thing that you give the lambda 23:02:57 but _ ++ "foo" has a type-gloss of t (String/String)\String String 23:03:43 erm, not String -> String? 23:03:57 type-gloss, not type signature 23:04:12 oh some linguist thing... 23:04:20 well, no 23:04:21 the term gloss is 23:04:23 but 23:04:34 a gloss is just an item-by-item "Translation" of sorts 23:04:43 so in this case, its an item-by-item type 23:04:59 so _ is type t, ++ is type (String/String)\String, and "foo" is type String 23:06:59 so the type-shifter consumes the items left-to-right like 23:08:02 well, that (String/String)\String i seem to recall you doing with grammar previously 23:08:18 (that notation) 23:08:37 yeah, its CCG directional lambda application notation 23:09:11 essentially (A\B)/C is a left-first lambda type 23:09:19 B -> C -> A 23:09:29 (A/B)\C would be C -> B -> A 23:09:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:09:46 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:09:57 ais523: 23:09:59 "The compiler values a multi-character character constant a character at a time, shifting the previous value left by the number of bits per target character, and then or-ing in the bit-pattern of the new character truncated to the width of a target character. The final bit-pattern is given type int, and is therefore signed, regardless of whether single characters are signed or not (a slight change fro 23:09:59 m versions 3.1 and earlier of GCC). If there are more characters in the constant than would fit in the target int the compiler issues a warning, and the excess leading characters are ignored." 23:10:02 HUH 23:10:31 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Implementation_002ddefined-behavior.html 23:10:52 AnMaster: multicharacter character constants in C exist, but are implementatino-defined 23:11:02 ais523, yes. But why that behaviour 23:11:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:11:12 why is that specific behaviour useful 23:11:26 it's the most common behaviour for a multichar constant 23:11:47 why is that an useful behaviour though 23:12:19 for example, pushing handprint in funge-98. e.g. ip_push(ip, 'WTF!'); 23:12:58 so the type-shifter gets to the ++ and says; ok, _ is type t, and ++ is type (Str\Str)/Str, so I have to lift _ to type Str/(Str\Str) 23:13:17 lifthrasiir, haha 23:13:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:13:44 lifthrasiir, I don't do it that way, I have a defined hexdecimal constant 23:13:48 okay, i'm just kidding but such constants are hardcoded to several file formats, for example. 23:14:14 once _ is lifted to Str/(Str\Str), it can compose with ++ (Str\Str)/Str to produce something like \x.(_ ++ x) 23:14:24 which is type Str/Str 23:14:35 -!- MizardX has joined. 23:15:33 the _ itself is probably some sort of magic lambda that stays on the outermost periphery of this whole thing 23:15:51 -!- coppro has joined. 23:16:26 so that "_ ++" actually produces something of the type \M.\x.(M ++ x) 23:16:46 but since the _ objects are parsing magic, not application magic, its all cool. 23:17:22 psygnisfive: scala & arc do that, but with less ridiculous "type gloss" rubbish. 23:17:28 it's a trivial syntactic translation 23:17:40 ehird 23:18:00 the type gloss stuff is a) not rubbish, and b) just a way to represent the types for describing whats going 23:18:18 that's "nice" but also useless, it's a trivial syntactic translation 23:18:55 maybe! but im thinking about it in combinatory terms. :P 23:20:58 mainly because it has no lambda delimiters to denote the whole thing as a lambda 23:21:12 so im not sure how i'd code something to recognize the extent of the lambda 23:23:07 i dont even remember at this point why i had this idea. XD 23:23:16 but it seemed like something i could use at the time 23:23:16 lol 23:23:35 i recall there were some discussions in #haskell about this 23:24:08 mostly, it wasn't considered worth complicating the language for, i think 23:25:16 (haskell already has sections, which is essentially an implicit such _ at one end of a parenthesized (x ++) or (++ x) 23:25:32 right, i know 23:25:47 the intention was to have a sort of... auto-lambda-izer for arbitrary expressions 23:26:42 it gets really messy if nested, with itself or with ordinary lambdas 23:27:00 how do you mean 23:29:43 ais523, can you update IFFI build process to define CFUN_IS_IFFI 23:30:34 oerjan 23:31:43 like, if you have both _ and _a, and no specific indication which is innermost 23:31:43 AnMaster: pretty easily, but not now 23:31:50 ais523, oh why 23:32:09 AnMaster: because it's late and I'm about to go home 23:32:11 oh. well, my intention was it'd just be in-order 23:32:12 ah 23:32:13 so _ _a could mean either \_ _a -> _ _a or \_a _ -> _a _ 23:32:13 ais523, cya 23:32:15 and in the middle of conversations with other people 23:32:20 ais523, and do it tomorrow then? 23:32:22 or whatever 23:33:01 so that _ _a would just be \_.\a.(_ _a) 23:33:16 or wait, even \_ -> _ \_a -> _a 23:33:37 what lol 23:33:44 in order. :P 23:33:57 \_ -> _ (\_a -> _a) 23:34:00 the magic lambdas just go in order of appearance of the _'s 23:34:30 well i guess the question is where the whole thing starts 23:34:36 right 23:34:47 the intention is that its the whole expression that the _ appears in 23:35:20 of some sort 23:35:42 i guess that itself is kind of tricky 23:35:44 ah yes that was another problem for haskell, it would mess with referential transparency 23:35:45 ais523, I'm going to commit that then 23:35:47 to IFFI 23:35:47 so it might need some delimiters. 23:36:09 {...} could delimit the magic lambda, i guess. 23:36:10 since you couldn't just substitute in an expression containing _'s 23:36:16 AnMaster: ok 23:36:55 ais523, pushed 23:36:58 oerjan, ive an idea 23:37:10 not for this exactly, but rather 23:37:30 a language that takes full advantage of type-shifting and function composition 23:37:30 ais523, pull from me please :) 23:38:08 AnMaster: ok, pulled 23:38:14 ais523, :) 23:38:25 so that expressions like sqrt + negate 5 == (\x -> sqrt x + negate x) 5 23:39:03 psygnisfive: you just invented forks 23:39:07 ehird 23:39:10 no 23:39:14 in J, (sqrt+negate)x = sqrt x + negate x 23:39:14 i know what forks are 23:39:25 well all commands in j are one-char 23:39:27 but there you go 23:39:27 ais523, btw since a few days cfunge has an option to disable all floating point calculations. (That is disable all fingerprints using them, core doesn't use it) 23:39:33 and psygnisfive, that's EXACTLY your concep. 23:39:34 t 23:39:36 in J you need to use special forked functions, i think, ehird 23:39:39 wrong 23:39:41 utterly wrong 23:39:44 ok 23:39:47 well, the idea isnt forks, anyway 23:39:53 i just used a fork as an example 23:39:53 ais523, this is of course a step in my evil plan to take over the world of embedded funge. ;P 23:39:55 ((verb1 verb2 verb3) noun) = ((verb1 noun) verb2 (verb3 noun)) 23:40:07 is that how it works in J? 23:40:10 generically? 23:40:17 yse 23:40:18 *yes 23:40:24 thats not what i mean, then. 23:40:40 FORBLEBORBLE 23:40:46 because it should be able to do more complex things 23:40:48 like say 23:40:56 ais523, it is possible (with advanced options) to get cfunge only to depend on libc now. Dropping need of libm, librt (optional, but previously always used if found), ncurses (likewise before) 23:41:05 time to go home, anyway 23:41:07 bye everyone 23:41:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:41:10 well librt only on linux 23:41:18 f g h x y = f (g x y) (h x y) 23:41:23 since clock_gettime() is in libc on freebsd 23:41:28 which is a double fork 23:41:30 psygnisfive: you can do that with just a fork 23:41:30 and all other platforms I know of 23:41:32 iirc 23:41:39 really? 23:41:41 psygnisfive: something like this has been done partially in haskell by creating numerical type class instances for functions 23:41:46 GregorR, hi 23:41:53 i'll have to look into J more, then 23:41:53 GregorR, limited output more yet 23:42:00 psygnisfive: if you have an apply function you can do it, probably 23:42:04 the fork will be ugly but meh 23:42:13 well, the idea tho is that like 23:42:22 although that's not very generic 23:42:27 the interpreter can recognize type-mismatches, and lift around them 23:42:50 psygnisfive: the problem is that your ideas, while sounding nice, often come down to trivial transformations :) 23:42:55 i attribute this to you being a linguist ;-) 23:43:00 uh 23:43:06 they're not all that trivial, ehird 23:43:08 im using trivial examples 23:43:14 : 23:43:15 :p 23:43:18 psygnisfive, use some complex ones then 23:43:24 i cant think of any! :P 23:43:26 to convince ehird 23:43:30 (I haven't been reading) 23:44:24 GregorR, limited output more yet // no 23:44:30 its not really a simple transformation tho 23:44:38 psygnisfive: well AnMaster is hardly the person to ask about convincing ehird ;D 23:44:45 its not a syntactic thing, atleast not at the level of the syntax of the language 23:45:53 psygnisfive: but then you are instead getting around to needing a "sufficiently advanced type system" 23:46:03 what? 23:46:12 for your lifting 23:46:19 what do you mean 23:46:30 have I mentioned that dependent types solve every woe 23:46:36 no :P 23:47:10 permutations of (values|types) indexing on (values|types), truly une beautifule! 23:47:53 psygnisfive: i know that haskell's type system very much _avoids_ trying to deduce alternatives to type mismatches, presumably because it would be unsolvable and/or unbearably messy 23:47:54 oerjan, on the offchance that you're interested in the sort of ideas that im basing this off of, check out Combinatory Categorial Grammar 23:48:08 http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users 23:48:30 (well with type classes that is) 23:48:31 its a minor extension on plain old categorial grammar, which uses a simple directional-application function type 23:48:45 oh, well 23:48:56 see, type-lifting and such are very well defined operations in CCG 23:49:20 theres basically only two novel operations in CCG that make it do what it does 23:49:59 given a function of type a, you can live to type (a -> b) -> b 23:50:03 lift to* 23:50:13 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:50:18 and thats essentially it. 23:50:41 modus ponens 23:50:48 what? :P 23:50:57 the other novel operation in CCG isnt novel to us, its just function composition, but its novel for CG 23:50:59 psygnisfive: if you will speak of linguistics without any context, please learn logic too. 23:51:10 i know what modus ponesns is, ehird 23:51:12 a, (a -> b) => b 23:51:16 ponesns 23:51:25 * psygnisfive smacks ehird 23:51:26 curry-howard isomorphism 23:51:28 oerjan: yep, and (a,b=>c) == (a=>b=>c) 23:51:44 you can do all logic with just forall and →, I think. 23:51:50 with _|_ = forall a.a 23:51:57 oerjan, yes, sure, i guess. i mean, afaik these ideas themselves arent magically knew, you know, but 23:52:00 (and ~a = a→_|_ ofc) 23:52:24 a^b = forall c.(a→b→c)→c 23:52:25 ehird: i think calculus of constructions does that 23:52:27 i mean, CCG has been around since the early 80s, i guess? and its an extension off of traditional logic as applied to natural language 23:52:40 oerjan: what about or? 23:52:51 but thats really not the point. :P 23:52:54 aVb = forall c. ((a→c)V(b→c))→c 23:52:55 hm 23:52:57 but that's self-referential 23:53:31 anyway, oerjan, you should check out CCG 23:53:52 oerjan: ah, wait 23:54:01 aVb = forall c. (a→c)→(b→c)→c, maybe? 23:54:14 if you can't satisfy one, do (a→_|_)? 23:54:16 yeah 23:54:18 dunno 23:54:19 as in 23:54:25 hmm 23:54:27 yeah, that seems right 23:56:28 oerjan: do you have the unicode _|_? 23:56:48 no 23:56:54 oerjan: ftp://ftp.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/pub/steedman/ccg/manifesto.pdf CCG manifesto. lol 23:57:11 Can't you just use F? 23:57:14 Or 0M 23:57:17 no! 23:57:26 because theres no fun in using someone elses language 23:57:40 Or a/\~a, it's equivalent 23:58:07 Slereah: ~a is defined using _|_ 23:58:13 imma use the langs that i wanna use >| 23:58:46 oerjan : Only if you chose it such :3 23:58:58 plus, i dont know if J does what im asking for, so nya. :P 23:59:11 Defining symbols with _|_ means you have to include at least two 23:59:12 not like im /asking/ for this, as such, but you know 23:59:18 -> and _|_ 23:59:35 Slereah: _|_ = forall a.a, said ehird 23:59:41 wtf is all this -> and _|_? _|_ looks like the symbol for bottom 23:59:45 and you need forall 23:59:49 Also : $Bcj(B 23:59:52 psygnisfive: yes 23:59:54 ⊥ = ∀A. A 23:59:54 ¬A = A ⇒ ⊥ 23:59:55 A ∧ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ (B ⇒ C)) ⇒ C 23:59:56 ok 23:59:57 A ∨ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ C) ⇒ ((B ⇒ C) ⇒ C)