00:01:07 ppl bear irrational fear 00:01:12 of the regexp 00:02:04 Hey, I can do regexes! I've done them before! *ducks* 00:03:06 code P6 00:03:13 it's one big regexp 00:08:18 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:08:45 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:08:57 nara 00:09:00 night 00:09:12 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:09:42 php regex sucks. 00:09:46 just so you know. 00:10:20 er 00:10:23 what's that got t o do with php 00:10:25 nobody mentioned php 00:10:42 no but they did mention regex 00:10:45 ... 00:10:55 and ive been coding in php lately, including some regex stuff. 00:11:16 so both regex and php are fresh in my mind, especially in conjunction. 00:11:37 PSOX uses regexes 00:12:21 PSOX uses god dammit sgeo i will be violent in regards to you 00:15:29 How did I know you'd react like that? 00:15:52 :-) 00:19:51 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:20:50 whats psox :o 00:20:55 pee socks 00:21:59 http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX 00:22:47 so pee socks the 00:22:48 n 00:28:23 "Take a conventional ice cream and replace all of its constituents with savoury equivalents. For the cone we will substitute pastry or perhaps batter, as found in a Yorkshire pudding. At the bottom of the cone is a dollop of beef and gravy, followed by scoops of nice mashed potato, possibly with leek or horseradish or something equally interesting stirred in. We add tomato sauce instead of strawberry, and the flake is replaced with a sausage. " 00:28:25 http://qntm.org/?savoury 00:28:30 * ehird vomits 00:36:12 * Jello_Raptor has changed the topic to: #xkcd challenge: name two rules which in addition to bucket's "-ass " to " ass-" would make buckat a universal turing maching (assume linked input and output) 00:36:25 "Microsoft created a loyal customer in me. I like their products, and I'm not ashamed to say it. They are just another company making software, and they happen to have the biggest market share. Why? Not because they're evil and sacrifice cats - it's because their operating system is the easiest and best to use, as evidenced by the entire fucking world" 00:36:28 Fail. 00:37:06 Popular OS means stuff released on it. More stuff released for it means people need it to use the stuff release, which makes it more popular, etc. 00:38:47 "Amen brother. I enjoy having an OS I can use that doesn't treat me like an idiot, AND gives me the opportunity to muck around in the guts of without knowing how to program my own damned drivers. I actually own a legal copy of Windows XP. Wooo." 00:38:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:38:55 Good god, it's a cesspool of stupidity. 00:39:00 Netcraft confirms it: reddit is dead. 00:39:11 Hi coppro. 00:39:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:40:06 Hi 00:41:53 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:43:12 Heh, copro. 00:45:30 Deewiant: http://managedflash.com/index.htm ← this looks like bullshit but what is it? 00:48:23 ah 00:48:26 "The Intel drive is already doing what the MFT is doing." 00:51:52 Deewiant: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8fedm/ocz_pcie_20_x4_ssd250gb_500gb_1_tb_1300_2500_3300/c093sk4 ← the $3k price is right 01:09:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:16:53 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:21:48 -!- iano has quit. 01:33:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:38:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 01:46:00 \(_o)/ 01:46:14 traps! 01:46:21 /tg/ :D 01:51:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:53:15 psygnisfive is a fa/tg/uy 01:53:26 pfft 01:53:38 and you're a ti/tg/uy 01:53:39 :o 01:53:51 DO YOU LIKE THEM 01:53:53 or were. surgery fixed your problem right up! 01:55:48 I'm not sure that makes sense. 01:56:03 what? 01:57:07 Never mind. 01:58:15 I mind >:| 02:28:31 * kerlo tackles and pins Slereah_ 02:28:33 NEVER mind. 02:30:20 Oh yes, I am helpless and at your mercy, you strapping young man. 02:32:14 * kerlo looks up "strapping" on Wiktionary 02:32:34 It sounds like high praise, likely because it was juxtaposed with "young". 02:33:20 And hey, it's just what it sounds like. 02:39:03 VERY STRAPPING 02:39:06 WITH STRAPS 02:45:03 Huh, the top level of NATO classification is called COSMIC TOP SECRET. 02:53:06 really? 02:55:32 Unless someone has vandalized Wikipedia recently, yes. 02:57:15 google seems to confirm that is the case 02:57:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:02:11 -!- coppro has joined. 04:47:33 Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified? 04:47:59 Seems to say n= for everyone, registered or not ... 05:07:39 No. 05:08:01 It's supposed to specify whether an IDENT server responded when you connected. 05:33:38 -!- amca has joined. 05:34:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:34:49 -!- amca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:47:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:09:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:10:04 damn 06:10:11 i ought to learn haskell 06:22:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:43:15 I learned just enough haskell to make a bad pun 06:43:28 * oerjan sits upright 06:44:47 that was supposed to be an encouragement, btw 06:45:22 Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified? 06:45:26 What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"? 06:45:52 It's Just Right! 06:45:56 oerjan: ......... yes? 06:45:59 that's the "is identified to services" part 06:47:30 oerjan: There is an "is identified to services" part? kerlo responded saying that was whether an ident server responded, which makes sense. 06:47:52 um no he talked about n= vs. i= 06:48:13 Right, that's what I thought was supposed to be whether you're identified :) 06:48:19 But there is an "is identified" part? 06:48:32 it's a separate line of the information 06:48:34 Oh duh 06:48:35 There it is 06:48:38 lawlehcoptahs 06:48:45 * GregorR 's incompetence is UNMATCHED 06:49:34 UNMATCHED ' 06:49:47 ........... /me punvomits. 07:20:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:25:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 08:29:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:31:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:51:58 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:02:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:02:24 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:33:02 -!- tombom has joined. 09:38:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:40:26 GregorR, i= vs n= is for "got identd reply or not" 10:13:00 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:26:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:29:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:32:59 Deewiant: "Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 '☃' which is hopefully correct." :D 10:36:05 * [Deewiant] is away (Z z z) <-- It must be past noon there...... 10:45:52 Yes, it is 10:45:57 I woke up 20 minutes ago :-P 10:47:47 anmaster 10:47:56 do you have a problem with people sleeping past noon? 10:48:12 no, not really. Just didn't expect Deewiant to be that type. 10:48:28 WELL HE IS SO GET USED TO IT 10:48:35 uh what... 10:48:47 he is that type. 10:49:04 Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired) 10:49:17 I just don't bother so then I sleep for 10-12 hours :-P 11:05:53 Oh, morning. 11:18:59 -!- nooga has joined. 11:19:09 ahh, another Mac hating morning 11:30:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:38:30 hi ais523 11:39:08 hi 11:39:46 Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 '☃' which is hopefully correct. 11:39:48 ais523, :) 11:40:13 heh 11:40:20 that is efunge though. 11:40:43 ☃.com has been squatted O_o 11:41:01 old 11:54:51 -!- Hiato has joined. 11:59:03 Deewiant, do you plan to add mycoedge any time soon? 11:59:52 Deewiant, if so, tell me in time so I can release the next cfunge version before then. Otherwise I have other more important things to do instead. 12:01:17 i listen to swedish radio 12:01:27 nooga, which channel 12:01:40 * AnMaster prefers P2 12:01:43 Radio Bastad, with ring upon a 12:01:56 P3 is quite 12:01:59 nooga, is that P4? 12:02:07 Radio Båstad I mean 12:02:12 http://www.radiobastad.se/webspelare/Webradiospelare%2080%20kbps.html 12:02:30 hm 12:02:40 local radio right? 12:02:48 Not one of the SR channels. 12:03:23 yep, local radio 12:03:33 nooga, SR has web radio too. 12:04:23 http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/kanaler/ , the links in the first column opens the web radio. 12:04:41 not a lot of interesting on right now, except possibly in P1. 12:07:18 Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/quit/expected.txt seems to contain some garbage. 12:07:23 "!Befunge-mark-4: GOOD 1" 12:07:23 what 12:07:53 somehow two files got mixed up there 12:10:56 Quite 12:11:11 Deewiant, also what about the question I had about mycoedge 12:11:56 "If so, tell you" -> no, so I won't. :-P 12:12:10 ais523, Deewiant: Should I add some point add SNMP support to efunge. Only reason I ever got this idea is that it would be quite simple to do it, since erlang has most of the stuff needed for it available already. 12:12:40 SNMP? 12:13:08 ais523, yes 12:13:15 I mean, what is SNMP? 12:13:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Network_Management_Protocol 12:14:45 I have trouble working out what that has to do with Befunge 12:15:07 ais523, same, just it would be kind of trivial in efunge. 12:16:14 in other news I found a way around the issue I had in efunge for ATHR implementation, so efunge development is starting to speed up again. 12:20:40 [Not that the question was addressed to me, but...] There are SNMP libraries for quite many languages; why not in Funge-98 too; that said, I have grave doubts that not many systems administrators will implement their snmp-based utilities with Funge-98. 12:20:53 fizzie, true :/ 12:21:13 also SNMP fits nicely as a fingerprint name. 12:22:42 Though you can implement SNMP on top of SOCK with Funge-98 code; so optionally it could be a library instead of... uh, a language feature, almost. Too bad Funge libraries aren't very practical, I guess. 12:22:51 s/optionally/optimally/ 12:44:05 wow, gcc reads my mind 12:44:33 just a few days ago I was wondering about a possible optimisation from switches that just assign to variables into lookup tables, as opposed to needing a jump table 12:44:48 now I look at the gcc 4.4 release notes and they've added -ftree-switch-conversion which does exactly that 12:45:30 ais523, you have code that needs it 12:45:30 I was surprised that that was new 12:45:31 ? 12:45:49 AnMaster: I've seen code that could benefit from it 12:45:56 although it was just a curiosity thing, no code actually /needs/ it 12:46:05 unless going for crazy speed 12:46:40 * AnMaster implemented exact bounds checking with about 5 lines of erlang code. Well add four to that if you include the caching bit (to avoid recalculating on every y). 12:46:50 seems to work so far 12:47:46 and ooh, they've improved the register allocator 12:48:11 that would let me write gcc-bf in more 'pure gcc' than the current version, although the current version's gcc side works so I'll stick to it 12:50:25 they've added support for various C++0x stuff too, like the type inference thing 13:06:33 ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]) 13:06:36 lovely :) 13:08:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:49:31 -!- oklokol has joined. 13:49:43 ais523: what do you mean by that switch optimization? 13:50:04 -!- oklokol has changed nick to oklofok. 13:50:27 argh... 13:50:40 say you have int y(int x) {int r; switch(x) {case 1: r=2; break; case 2: r=42; break; case 3:r=10323; break;} return r;} 13:50:54 thinking about parallel computing is hard. 13:51:26 ignoring issues of bounds checking, etc, that could be optimised into static const int __y_lookup[4] = {0,2,42,10323}; int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;} 13:51:34 * AnMaster is trying to work out bounds updating in the ATHR efunge variant. 13:51:45 ais523: Not [3] and [x-1]? 13:52:03 in fact, that would be a legit implementation as r isn't initialised with a passed-in value other than 1, 2, or 3; that's undefined behaviour, so you can translate it into the alternative undefined behaviour of accessing uninitialised memor 13:52:05 because ehird isn't active atm, i should probably inform you if it's hard you probably have the wrong abstractions and you suck 13:52:05 *memory 13:52:07 I guess -Os would do that 13:52:10 to AnMaster 13:52:24 actually, [3] and looking it up as (__y_lookup-1)[x] would probably be the most efficient 13:52:34 as the linker will optimise the subtraction from a memory address into a constant address 13:52:42 Oh, true 13:53:41 ais523, if the compiler ended up with int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;} as the final code I would be rather disappointed. 13:53:56 y(int x) { return __y_lookup[x]; } 13:54:00 well, yes 13:54:13 I'm referring to that particular optimisation, rather than to other optimisations 13:54:20 err, what's the difference, r would be a register anyway 13:54:20 right. 13:54:24 hmm 13:54:26 in fact, gcc doesn't need an explicit optimisation there, the two would compile into the same code 13:54:37 as it would allocate r to the register which happened to hold the return value of the function 13:54:46 okay i'm thinking load-store here, i guess on lesser architectures AnMaster's is faster 13:54:51 oklofok, depends on calling convention though. 13:54:57 AnMaster: sure 13:55:35 in what kind of a convention would yours be better? 13:55:36 lets say you have "return on stack" for calling convention. 13:55:49 and the system has a "mov" to move between two memory locations directly 13:56:05 which is faster than moving first to register and then to the stack. 13:56:19 yes, that's what i was referring to by lesser architectures 13:56:21 rather contrived example though. 13:56:24 that they might have that 13:56:28 oklofok, "lesser"? 13:56:34 well, bad architectures 13:56:37 you know outdated ones 13:56:40 right 13:56:45 like x86 13:56:56 actually on x86 it wouldn't matter 13:57:04 integers are returned in eax iirc 13:58:01 structs and other large things are as usual returned on the stack. All architectures have some upper size limit on parameters/return data before it ends up using the stack. 13:58:10 err right i didn't know that was actually x86's calling convention 13:58:11 but okay 13:58:12 anyway 13:58:18 in that case yours is the same as ais523's 13:58:40 AnMaster: where are doubles returned? stack 13:58:41 ? 13:58:47 oklofok, depends on if compiler is smart enough to not do "mov memory,register, move register,otherregister" 13:58:57 I have seen gcc do stuff like that at -O0 13:59:05 s/move/mov/ 13:59:18 oklofok, either stack of x87 registers. Don't remember. 13:59:48 x86 you mean? 13:59:52 err 13:59:54 you probably do 13:59:56 no x87 13:59:58 hmm 13:59:59 okkay 14:00:01 *okay 14:00:11 not familiar with that 14:00:14 oklofok, that is the floating point bit, even though it isn't a co-processor since ages. 14:00:15 -O0 is very literal minded 14:00:22 AnMaster: ohh 14:00:46 ais523, that still doesn't justify two mov $0,%eax directly after each other IMO. 14:00:51 something I have also seen at -O0 14:01:11 and no I didn't assign the same variable twice. In fact the function didn't use eax in any other place. 14:01:11 x=0; x=0; 14:01:27 well, my guess is it isn't remembering the value of eax from one command to another at O0 14:01:35 maybe 14:01:36 and the built-in pattern-match sets it to 0 there 14:01:50 makes sense it would have such a mode 14:01:54 ais523, but why would it store two integers in the same register. 14:02:28 AnMaster: would probably need to know context to be able to explain 14:04:11 oklofok, back with 386, the 387 was the separate floating point processor you could buy as an add-on. The name x87 stuck for the floating point bit even when it was integrated into the main processor in 486 and later (for brevity I'm ignoring 486SX here). 14:04:56 AnMaster: right i may have heard about that 14:05:15 but umm 14:05:17 need to go study 14:05:18 i think 14:05:20 ais523, anyway it wasn't like that. I think the function was more like: double add(double a, double b) { return a + b; } (used in some threaded code, where threaded means in the Forth meaning of it) 14:05:25 so bye. 14:05:52 does having a particular value in eax affect the way floating-point addition works, I wonder? 14:05:59 based on my experiences on x86, I wouldn't be surprised... 14:06:07 no I don't think so 14:06:59 there is the floating point control register though. 14:07:03 which is separate. 14:07:12 fctrl iirc 14:07:20 at least that is what gdb calls it. 14:07:50 mxcsr is the control register for the xmm registers (SSE) 14:11:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:11:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:11:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:22:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:40:05 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 14:41:34 * AnMaster tries working out details for a custom supervisor for the threads 15:01:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:02:33 hi oerjan 15:02:39 hi AnMaster 15:03:47 hm distributed funge space.... 15:04:36 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_ring 15:04:48 actually this won't be possible for that... would need to mirror funge space to each note 15:04:50 node* 15:05:10 what I'm working on is simply concurrent non-distributed funge-space 15:05:19 oerjan, hah 15:05:38 i thought you'd want a fungy name... 15:06:51 nop 15:07:01 oerjan, just trying to work out semantics for it. 15:08:37 easiest way is probably one master funge-space server + mirrors. Mirrors send updates back to the master. (So they may be slightly out of sync in all directions, but not much.) 15:08:50 another way would be meshed funge-space with no defined master. 15:09:04 fs2fs (fungespace-to-fungespace) 15:09:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:09:46 yes that sounds interesting 15:09:49 wb ais523 15:09:53 hi 15:10:24 ais523,how would you design distributed funge-space. Slightly out of sync allowed. 15:10:41 Master funge-space server + mirrors. Or f2f? 15:10:47 (fungespace-to-fungespace) 15:10:55 probably by using Bethunge spreading, and putting one CPU doing each thread 15:10:58 *Befunge threading 15:11:11 ais523, no, I meant distributed as in a cluster 15:11:16 and just the funge-space bit 15:11:18 yes, I know 15:11:29 ah, you want this to transparently work on existing programs? 15:11:45 ais523, well no, it wouldn't, since they would not be lock-step threaded. 15:11:46 it seems to me that you aren't going to get much (or any) gain unless the program was designed with distribution in mind 15:12:25 ais523, I'm thinking for ATHR. My current design allow SMP but not distributed nodes. 15:13:28 one way would be to go full blown mnesia db (quite a bit of overhead for updates, since it always uses transactions, and restart failed transactions). 15:13:39 that would handle the distribution bit for me. 15:14:09 anyway I'm not going to do it right now. Atm I'm trying to get bounds to work correctly on a *single* node. 15:14:19 mind just wandered :) 15:16:51 yes! 15:17:37 btw, exact bounds is undefined after ATHR has been loaded. 15:20:58 ok 15:21:02 you're allowed to do that, because it's a fingerprint 15:22:06 ais523, yes a very feral one indeed. 15:22:54 evil plan: make a fingerprint FAST that has no semantics, but instead allows an interp to do slightly non-conforming things to be faster 15:24:11 ais523, interesting idea. But there is a runtime overhead of checking if the fingerprint has been loaded. Unacceptable. 15:24:12 ;P 15:24:31 AnMaster: why not just make the fingerprint replace the executable in memory? 15:24:49 ok that works I guess. But then there is the overhead of doing that ;P 15:25:08 store cfunge always on a RAM drive, and execute it straight from the drive? 15:25:14 haha 15:25:25 anyway ATHR is in efunge only, not in cfunge 15:25:30 * ais523 wonders if that's actually possible 15:25:46 ais523, I think linux supports executing directly from some devices yes 15:26:18 flash mostly. Not with PC interface to flash, rather for more low level interface. 15:26:40 on PCs flash devices use the ATA interface, which doesn't support it. 15:27:00 I don't think there are enough expensive operations for FAST to be of any benefit 15:27:14 y is one of them, it could restrict itself to only the more useful information 15:27:19 or change the semantics to be faster to retrieve 15:27:26 bounds checking, for instance 15:28:00 likewise, you could turn off checking for reflections on invalid input to commands 15:28:04 for cfunge exact bounds is a compile time option. 15:28:06 just assume all input is valid and crash when it isn't 15:28:24 ais523, actually efunge could benefit a bit from that 15:28:44 since I have to catch exceptions in , 15:29:02 haha: http://www.icfpcontest.org/ 15:29:05 what a useful page! 15:29:05 overhead doesn't seem to be very large though 15:29:56 does fff**, reflect in cfunge? does it in efunge? /should/ it? 15:30:07 well, it shouldn't in efunge because that's a valid codepoint IIRC 15:30:18 but it isn't for cfunge, which uses 8-bit chars again IIRC 15:30:20 ais523, why should it... 15:30:28 hm 15:30:32 because it's incapable of outputting that character 15:30:56 in the case of ffffff*****, I would imagine that both should reflect 15:30:57 ais523, no it isn't. int putchar(int c); 15:31:12 what putchar does is up to it. 15:31:14 AnMaster: but you're only supposed to pass things in the char range or EOF as arguments to it 15:31:31 oh... "fputc() writes the character c, cast to an unsigned char, to stream." 15:31:37 yes... 15:31:51 ais523, anyway I only reflect on EOF on stdout. 15:32:02 in cfunge 15:32:10 by the way, mightn't putc(c,stdout); be faster? 15:32:17 because it's equivalent, and might be implemented via a macro? 15:32:30 also, what about using unlocked I/O? 15:32:34 funge_cell a = stack_pop(ip->stack); 15:32:35 // Reverse on failed output 15:32:35 if (FUNGE_UNLIKELY(cf_putchar_maybe_locked((int)a) != (unsigned char)a)) 15:32:35 ip_reverse(ip); 15:32:41 ais523, yes? ;P 15:32:47 ah, aha 15:33:02 you thought of that already, the putchar was just lying to me 15:33:09 is cf_putchar_maybe_locked a macro, by any chance? 15:33:15 ais523, cf_putchar_maybe_locked is a macro, it may be unlocked, depending on if OS supports it, and on if Boehm-gc is used 15:33:28 unlocked stdio messes up with bohem for some reason 15:33:35 also, why does cfunge need a garbage colelector? 15:33:38 *collector? 15:33:45 ais523, it doesn't, it is an option 15:33:46 since ages. 15:33:50 ah, ok 15:33:57 why does the option exist, if it doesn't need a GC? 15:34:44 ais523, because once it did and removing it wouldn't save anything. All the code handling it is in a single header. 15:34:57 I mean it is no extra work to just keep the option. 15:35:00 ah, ok 15:35:11 but it's an option nobody would want to use 15:35:20 ais523, I test it every now and then. 15:35:31 anyway 15:36:25 ais523, there are other "hidden" options, some meant only for developers (read: me) 15:36:50 C-INTERCAL has some options which are probably only useful for developers, but are documented anyway 15:36:52 -DFUZZ_TESTING in CFLAGS is one such. 15:37:35 makes cfunge non-conforming by: 1) always making q exit with 0 2) calls alarm() at the start to limit runtime for each fuzz test. 15:38:00 at one point it also made cfunge output which random seed was used at startup. 15:38:02 bbl food 15:54:31 09:49 Deewiant: Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired) 15:54:36 i set an alarm and then fight it for hours 15:54:48 I fight the lack of an alarm 15:55:08 the question is, do you fight it before or after it sets off? :D 15:55:16 hi ehird 15:55:30 well my alarm is my iphone 15:55:33 turning it off is difficult 15:55:40 I generally wake up just before the alarm too, but only if I've set it 15:55:43 you need to slide a little knob on the touchscreen from one side to another 15:55:45 normally I rely on my parents to wake me 15:55:54 and if you do that from bed you just slip or whatever 15:56:08 so i generally bash the lock button, which shuts up the alarm for ~9 minutes 15:56:27 possibly I should disable the lock button 15:57:21 when i use an alarm i make sure to put it out of reach from bed 15:57:22 so 15:57:31 the ether convinced me to use perl again 15:57:44 'cuz, y'know, I'm insane. 15:57:56 and masochistic 15:58:19 i suggest you stop sniffing ether, then 15:58:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:02:14 how does anyone manage to wake up just before the alarm goes off 16:02:15 huh 16:02:23 it's instinct 16:02:27 body clock and all that shit 16:02:31 you can't do it first tim 16:02:31 e 16:02:35 just after you get used to the alarm 16:02:38 * ais523 has been going around search engines and internet directory sites looking up INTERCAL 16:02:47 ehird, I generally have irregular wake up times. 16:02:50 surprisingly, Cuil's results are slightly better than Google's in that respect 16:02:58 ais523: ... ! 16:03:18 ais523, cuil still exists? 16:03:20 huh 16:03:22 yes 16:03:32 they got loads of funding 16:03:43 enough to keep them going for years even if they get no hits 16:04:06 http://www.cuil.com/info/blog/ 16:04:10 Tweaking the image algorithm J.D. Chen, software engineer 16:04:11 Apr 15, 04:31 PM 16:04:12 When you see the right image, you know it instantly. And if it’s not quite right, you know it right away, too. We’ve gotten lots of feedback on our image work since launch and we really appreciate the input and ideas. We’ve looked, listened and learned, and have made some changes. Today we are rolling out some more changes to our image algorithm that address some of these issues. We hope to find more photos and less title bars, for example. And we 16:04:17 have to be able to find more good images from the results themselves. 16:04:19 they're posting to their fucking blog. 16:04:25 holy lol 16:04:30 oh, the images were nearly all irrelevant on Cuil's results 16:04:44 Search Wikia's aren't too bad, although it has more irrelevant ones than the others it has more relevant ones too 16:04:45 holy shit 16:04:48 the comments are all positive 16:04:49 O_O 16:04:51 it was the only one to notice CLCLC-INTERCAL 16:04:56 this is bizarro world 16:04:59 where cuil is better than google 16:05:03 ehird: it's because Cuil failed massively on its opening day, because the servers crashed 16:05:16 i konw 16:05:18 know 16:05:22 it isn't actually as bad as everyone thought it was based on that, although that of course doesn't mean it's better than Google 16:05:22 I am a citizen of the internet :P 16:05:32 also, cuil really is bad 16:06:03 woah, the Search Wikia results just keep coming 16:06:13 the bottom of the page is dynamically generated I think 16:06:20 as in, if you keep scrolling down, you keep getting more results 16:06:24 ais523: ah, that technique 16:06:29 yep 16:06:31 I quite like it 16:06:34 I was wondering why there were so many 16:06:57 and it's still finding several relevant ones 16:07:05 it just found https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clc-intercal 16:07:06 ais523: i thought you used noscript? 16:07:10 oh, wikia requires js, right? 16:07:18 immediately after the Malbolge homepage 16:07:22 huh 16:07:24 that's pretty good. 16:07:25 and yes, using noscript != disabling JS everywhere 16:07:31 yes, but there are lots of other irrelevants too 16:07:41 it's about 20% relevant scrolled down that far 16:07:49 as in, about 1 in 5 results look like what I'm looking for 16:07:56 that's still enough that it's useful, though 16:08:05 google is useless after about page 4 16:08:17 unless your term only really means one thing and it's popular 16:08:28 yep, search wikia just goes on finding lots of useful results, in addition to the useless ones 16:08:32 some of which I've never seen before 16:08:59 * ehird scares ais523 with his perl 16:09:08 possibly the only language where clean, idiomatic code is scary! 16:09:47 for instance, http://blogs.technet.com/homeserver/archive/2007/05/25/celebrating-35-years-of-intercal.aspx is a useful tidbit of information 16:09:59 but 16:10:01 but it's asp! 16:10:03 blog software 16:10:04 and 16:10:05 AIEEEEEEEEE 16:10:12 I'd heard (from someone claiming to be Richard Lyon, Jim's brother) that Jim Lyon worked for Microsoft 16:10:17 but that, on a Microsoft blog, confirms it 16:10:21 oh god: 16:10:23 Well first, Windows Home Server is written primarily in INTERCAL.* 16:10:23 *This is actually not true. But it would be funny if it were. 16:10:25 PISS OFF! 16:10:31 IF YOU EXPLAIN A JOKE LIKE THAT IT'S NOT FUNNY >_< 16:10:41 you just make the assumption that your readers are idiots! 16:10:44 it's a Microsoft blog, though 16:10:53 so their lawyers / marketers probably insisted on it 16:11:15 I wonder if jim lyon working at MS is an elaborate prank of his 16:12:23 File Format: Proprietary file format used by INTERCAL software. 16:12:27 err, what? 16:12:43 :-D 16:12:44 it's all well and good for a file extension site to decide that .i usually refers to INTERCAL, rather than preprocessed C 16:12:48 but "proprietary"? 16:12:49 Unix:C-INTERCAL 16:12:50 Java INTERCAL 16:12:52 is that just because you can't read it? 16:12:53 JAVA INTERCAL 16:12:58 ais523: automated 16:13:06 they see it's just used by INTERCAL, oh, it's probably proprietary 16:13:14 "Contains source code written in INTERCAL, a programming language designed to be different than all other major program languages; uses commands such as "DO," "NEXT," "PLEASE," and "FORGET." " 16:13:15 erm 16:13:19 DO and NEXT aren't very obscure... 16:13:22 the file usage is also wrong 16:13:41 the INTERCAL versions of them don't do the same as those keywords in other languages, though 16:13:44 INTERCAL DO = C ; 16:13:53 INTERCAL NEXT = BASIC GOSUB 16:13:54 it's more like prefix ; 16:13:59 well, not exactly in either case 16:14:03 but it helps to get the understanding right 16:14:07 prefix ; is a good explanation 16:14:56 Trouble opening .I files? 16:14:57 Scan and fix .i file associations with this free scan. 16:15:01 :D 16:15:11 * ehird grumbles; OS X comes with perl 5.8 and if you install perl5.10 w/ macports you have to do "perl5.10" instead of just "perl" 16:15:11 How many file extension errors does your computer have? 16:15:13 You no longer need to guess. 16:15:33 ehird, ... 16:15:37 * ais523 wonders if that program is spyware 16:15:42 Is this a virus Scam? 16:15:42 Well I was on face book when all of a sudden, my window closes and a new window pops up saying my PC (even though its a mac), has 9 very critical viruses. I don't know what to do. Also the window had the PC version of the "top" of a window. should I be worried, or just exit out of the window? 16:15:43 I doubt it would work here, though 16:15:46 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090412154307AAj1DcH 16:15:46 ehird, there are many solutions for it. 16:16:02 ehird, such as alias perl=perl5.10 16:16:06 AnMaster: I'm allowed to grumble at stupid OS behaviour if I want, TYVM. 16:16:07 or a function in the shell 16:16:12 And "#!/usr/bin/env perl". 16:16:13 or a symlink in ~/bin 16:16:15 if it is first 16:16:35 I do /have/ a registry in here, although I don't know if it has file associations in 16:16:39 put a symlink in ~/bin and make it come before the other perl location in $PATH 16:16:45 ais523: gconf? 16:16:47 ais523, the gnome one? 16:16:47 Wine has a little registry of its own in case Windows programs want to put entries into it 16:16:50 no, the Wine one 16:16:54 ah 16:16:55 AnMaster: thank you, I'm not an idiot, I know how to use unix 16:17:06 Gnome has something similar, but it uses .desktop files for file extensions rather than gconf 16:17:11 ehird, don't grumble, give a whistle! 16:17:31 gconf is nice, anyway 16:17:38 the registry is not a fundamentally bad idea 16:17:39 ..... 16:17:45 windows's implementation is, though 16:18:06 ais523, you got the reference at least I hope. 16:18:28 AnMaster: So did I, Mr. An "Just because I got the joke doesn't mean I have to say haha or something" Master. 16:18:39 (Or should I say An Hypocritical Master...) 16:18:42 ehird, reference != joke 16:18:57 does anyone recognise the program in ? 16:19:33 ooh, wlug 16:19:46 http://www.ofb.net/~jlm/intercal.html 16:19:48 The infamous ROT-13 program 16:19:49 Yes, this is it, the ROT-13 program I wrote in INTERCAL because I couldn't get my Pascal to compile on Unix and I didn't know C yet. It's been described on alt.folklore.computers as "4 pages of completely indecipherable code". Two of these stuck together make a decent "slowcat" for viewing VT-100 animations. [Note: Computers have sped considerably since, destroying this vestige of utility.] 16:19:54 ... :-D 16:20:02 ais523, iirc it is in pit 16:20:10 unless I misremember 16:20:49 ah, could be 16:20:53 it's a lot shorter than 4 pages, though 16:21:36 the page links to rot13.i 16:21:45 but the code at the bottom of that isn't rot13.i, it's something else 16:21:57 hm ok 16:22:09 then I mixed it up probably 16:22:15 "People who program in Ruby aren't like other coders. We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine." 16:22:21 and based on the amount of abstention and reinstatement going on, it would benefit a lot from ONCE/AGAIN 16:22:26 "Additionally, our heads are way up our respective asses." 16:22:34 "'Cuz we're just so awesome." 16:23:06 ais523, what does it do then 16:23:11 if it isn't rot-13 16:23:44 AnMaster: do you really think I can tell what an INTERCAL program does just by looking at it? 16:23:56 ais523, no 16:23:59 however, it counts to 10 in TriINTERCAL 16:24:11 ais523, you tried it or 16:24:12 I couldn't tell that by looking at it, but there was an explanation above the code saying what it did 16:24:13 We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine. 16:24:14 er 16:24:16 Rather than trying to describe the language, it's probably best to show an example. The code below was written in Tri-INTERCAL: it merely counts to 10. You may also want to see a sample implementation of ROT13 in INTERCAL. Then again, you may not. ("4 pages of completely indecipherable code", according to its author.) 16:25:03 err 16:25:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:25:52 fast det var ju inte författaren som tyckte det, utan alt.folklore.computers 16:26:08 I saw syntax highlighting of intercal code in kate. was worried there... but it was just highlighting it as "Progress" whatever that is. 16:26:09 also, wrong language, never mind :) 16:26:31 olsner, I can read that :P 16:26:34 ooh, http://www.brendangregg.com/Guess/guess.i 16:26:43 Hmm... I like quantum INTERCAL better than threaded INTERCAL 16:26:51 coppro: ITRALCEN combines them. 16:26:55 clearly autogenerated 16:27:03 ais523: you sure? 16:27:03 there's redundant REINSTATEs in there 16:27:08 AnMaster: yeah, I know :P 16:27:09 which nobody would do deliberately 16:27:33 coppro, I would prefer non-synced threaded intercal 16:27:36 as in really async 16:27:39 coppro: shall I explain ITRALCEN's (my hypothetical implementation of INTERCAL) threading model? it acts the same to the end user but it's all based around one operation, ais523 liked it a lot when I told him 16:27:41 instead of lock-step 16:27:47 uh oh 16:27:47 AnMaster: that's so boring 16:27:49 :P 16:27:53 coppro: mwahaha 16:27:59 i do not guarantee your prolonged sanity. 16:27:59 ehird, lock step is even more boring 16:28:05 oh, maybe not 16:28:13 the start of the program contains ABSTAINs and REINSTATEs that cancel each other out 16:28:20 presumably just to confuse the reader 16:28:31 also, it sets up a table of constant strings 16:28:40 AnMaster: C-INTERCAL uses "mostly lock-step" 16:28:58 in particular, it's unspecified whether a COME FROM costs a step or not 16:29:06 also, ehird, you didn't solve my Enigma puzzle :( 16:29:07 ais523, does any program try to depend on it being "mostly lock-step"? 16:29:08 mostly because I gave up trying to figure it out 16:29:20 AnMaster: yes, the modern C-INTERCAL hello world on Esolang does 16:29:24 coppro: IT'S OVER! I WANT A DIVORCE! 16:29:25 ahem 16:29:33 I haven't really being paying attention to enigma lately 16:29:47 ais523, that would make using the full potential of a cluster rather hard. 16:30:01 lock-step sounds pretty easy to reason about though... it's supposed to be hard, right? 16:30:05 AnMaster: err, C-INTERCAL wasn't designed for distributed computing? 16:30:10 olsner: no! 16:30:14 INTERCAL is supposed to be /different/ 16:30:24 it's allowed to be easy, just most of the easy ways to do things have already been used 16:30:32 that's where it gets its reputation of difficulty 16:30:42 ah, okay 16:31:07 some things, though, like ONCE/AGAIN/ABSTAIN for multi-thread synchronisation, are really neat but I haven't seen them before 16:31:08 ais523, ok, you need eintercal ("einter" pronounced as "eynter") 16:31:31 or maybe entercal would be funnier 16:31:33 ---> Installing perl5.10 @5.10.0_3+threads 16:31:45 why are you installing 5.10? 16:31:52 ais523: err 16:31:54 so you can mess around with the ~~ and // operators? 16:31:58 because it has many nice features? 16:32:07 say, new operators, that 'switch' thing 16:32:11 or because Apple borked their Perl packaging again and you decided to upgrade while you fixed it? 16:32:13 ah, ok 16:32:22 5.8 is unmaintained too, IIRC 16:32:26 / is the only 5.10 new feature I've actually used 16:32:29 ais523, my aim after I get ATHR working (and working on smp vm too, which should be just the same as non-smp vm) is to make efunge support distribution. 16:32:44 ais523: also, Modern::Perl requires it 16:33:44 "Modern::Perl"? 16:33:49 ok I have concurrent async bounds updating worked. 16:33:52 working* 16:33:53 :D 16:34:16 at least as far as I can currently test it. 16:34:16 ais523: 16:34:17 our $VERSION = '1.03'; 16:34:17 use 5.010_000; 16:34:19 use strict; 16:34:21 use warnings; 16:34:23 use mro (); 16:34:25 use feature (); 16:34:27 sub import { 16:34:29 warnings->import(); 16:34:31 strict->import(); 16:34:33 feature->import( ':5.10' ); 16:34:35 mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' ); 16:34:37 } 16:34:38 ... 16:34:39 http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm 16:34:41 hmm 16:34:43 that's a bit longer than I expected 16:34:45 spam! 16:34:45 oh well 16:34:53 16:34 ehird: that's a bit longer than I expected 16:34:53 16:34 ehird: oh well 16:34:54 blind! 16:35:20 hmm 16:35:22 spam! 16:35:24 that's a bit longer than I expected 16:35:26 16:34 ehird: oh well 16:35:31 well 16:35:36 that last was a mispaste 16:35:39 yes, AnMaster, internet lag exists. thank you for that. 16:35:48 ehird, stop calling me blind then 16:35:53 thank you in advance. 16:35:58 nop 16:35:58 e 16:36:09 hypocrite then 16:36:13 yep 16:36:47 "cpan2dist is a commandline tool to convert any distribution from CPAN into a package in the format of your choice, like for example .deb or FreeBSD ports. " 16:36:50 Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yeaaaaaaaaaaah 16:37:34 wonder how well it works... 16:37:52 Fuck it, I'm compiling my own perl to /opt/perl 16:38:11 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:39:20 I wonder if cpanplus has a "shut the fuck up and install the package, bitch, I don't care if you're following dependencies" option. 16:39:22 CPAN needs that. 16:39:40 hey, perl has its own configure system 16:39:42 sweet 16:39:45 not 16:40:26 ehird++ 16:40:34 % ./Configure -des -Duse64bitall -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl 16:40:47 i wonder how this system will fail! 16:41:01 probably interestingly, with lots of fire. 16:41:01 hey, perl has its own configure system <-- you haven't noticed it before? 16:41:11 ... 16:41:20 I haven't compiled perl before. 16:41:55 I think most people haven't compiled Perl before 16:42:15 maybe Larry Wall had a Grand Vision from God, where he was told to make his own, amazing configuration system - and lo, it shall be The Most Divine Configuration System that Man has ever seen. 16:42:31 ld warning: in /opt/local/lib/libgdbm.dylib, file is not of required architecture 16:42:31 /bin/sh: ./try: Bad CPU type in executable 16:42:33 The program compiled OK, but exited with status 126. 16:42:35 You have a problem. Shall I abort Configure [y] 16:42:37 Ok. Stopping Configure. 16:42:39 yay 16:42:41 it links against non-64 bit libs 16:42:46 so scratch 64 bit 16:43:19 ehird, need some option then 16:43:23 AnMaster: wut 16:43:36 ehird, if you want it to link against 64-bit ones 16:43:43 no, there is no 64 bit version of it 16:43:45 that's why it failed 16:43:46 library path or such 16:43:49 ah ok 16:43:54 ehird, that sounds strange... 16:43:59 AnMaster: meh 16:44:07 btw, does 64 bit linux do -m64 by default w/ gcc? 16:44:09 ehird, is OS X mostly 32 bit or 64 bit userland. 16:44:13 32 bit 16:44:18 snow leopard is 64-bitizing 16:44:24 ehird, on x86_64 -m64 is default 16:44:30 right 16:44:32 I think -m32 is default on some other arches. 16:44:34 -m32 is default on os x 16:44:38 even on 64 bit 16:44:40 like, sparc iirc 16:45:08 anyway the reason is that on x86 the 64-bit thing adds lots of other nice stuff, not just longer pointers. 16:45:27 so "more memory needed" isn't only reason for 64-bit binaries, like it is on some platforms. 16:45:30 What Perl needs is to kick Perl 6 dead and to mostly rewrite perl(1). 16:45:33 incidentally, someone published patches to Perl which added INTERCAL operators to it 16:45:49 ehird, in that case DNF will finish first. 16:46:02 AnMaster: err... have you seen how slow perl 6 development is? 16:46:03 ais523, patches... can't you do such stuff in pure perl. 16:46:07 most of the time. 16:46:11 well, I think so 16:46:12 AnMaster: no, you can't define new infix operators 16:46:15 which makes it all the madder 16:46:18 ah 16:46:20 but defining new operators doesn't work 16:46:26 not within the language 16:46:35 I mean after seeing perligata and acme::brainfuck and such 16:46:38 or whatever the names were 16:47:02 unless you use a source filter, and that would imply you had to be able to parse Perl 16:47:02 unless your source filter interprets Perl too 16:47:05 AnMaster: perligata is a source filtr 16:47:07 *filter 16:47:08 heh 16:47:11 ais523, hah 16:47:15 ais523: well, syntax extending source filters exist 16:47:16 and at this stage, you have to reimplement Perl inside your filter 16:47:17 so it IS possible 16:47:21 so why not just patch Perl to begin with 16:47:22 not replacing 16:47:23 extending 16:47:40 ehird: none of them really work really properly, though 16:47:48 either they fail in corner cases, or have weird restrictions 16:47:50 ais523: how does MooseX::Declare work, I wonder? 16:48:03 most of Moose works just by defining functions 16:48:10 no 16:48:12 not moosex::declare 16:48:19 class BankAccount { 16:48:19 has 'balance' => ( isa => 'Num', is => 'rw', default => 0 ); 16:48:20 method deposit (Num $amount) { 16:48:22 $self->balance( $self->balance + $amount ); 16:48:24 } 16:48:26 } 16:48:27 I don't know MooseX::Declare 16:48:28 is moosex::declare 16:48:34 it's considered a best practice from what I can tell 16:48:40 use B::Hooks::EndOfScope; 16:48:40 use Devel::Declare (); 16:48:44 ok, I regret wondering already 16:48:54 err what 16:48:56 it mentions B::? 16:48:59 oh no, not B 16:49:04 what is B:: 16:49:09 AnMaster: Perl compiler internals module. 16:49:11 hooks to Perl's internals 16:49:11 ah 16:49:23 Basically, Lovecraft is a fluffy kitten. 16:49:26 ok can't you add new operators that way 16:49:30 no 16:49:33 hm ok 16:49:37 strange, for being perl. 16:49:57 in this case, Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call, but this hooks up to } and rewrites the expression if it's a moosex::declare thing 16:50:17 for a best practice it's pretty scary 16:50:27 uurgh 16:50:35 AnMaster: OTOH, that's transparent 16:50:47 it could suddenly use a lovely new perl syntax extension mechanism that's just been introduced 16:50:52 and the usage wouldn't change 16:50:53 Why B btw. B as in "Binternal"? 16:51:08 "bompiler"? 16:51:17 It refers to an internal perl thing I think 16:51:18 like SV 16:51:23 Svar? 16:51:25 The B module supplies classes which allow a Perl program to delve into its own innards. It is the module used to implement the "backends" of the Perl compiler. Usage of the compiler does not require knowledge of this module: see the O module for the user-visible part. The B module is of use to those who want to write new compiler backends. This documentation assumes that the reader knows a fair amount about perl's internals including such things as SVs, 16:51:27 OPs and the internal symbol table and syntax tree of a program. 16:51:29 B and O 16:51:31 maybe they just wanted a short name 16:51:36 B for backend 16:51:41 ehird, SV: is what l10n Outlook puts instead of RE:... 16:51:52 (l10n to Swedish) 16:51:55 SV means scalar value/variable 16:51:57 I forget which 16:51:57 no other client seems to translate it. 16:52:00 right 16:52:15 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:52:19 wb ais523_ 16:52:20 wb ais523 16:52:21 err 16:52:24 fail 16:52:28 * ehird make test 16:52:31 wb me 16:52:41 what did you last see? 16:52:49 -!- ais523__ has joined. 16:52:54 ... 16:52:57 what 16:52:58 in this case Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call 16:53:00 and hi ais523__ 16:53:04 ah 16:53:09 yay, this computer is Internet-connected again 16:53:10 we talked about why B's named B after that 16:53:16 B for Backend, isn't it? 16:53:24 B for backend 16:53:30 right, but why the short name? 16:53:51 maybe because it's used a lot inside the compiler itself? 16:54:04 ais523_, golfing namespaces... 16:54:16 'Note: Wolfram asked us to refrain from posting screenshots, so we will not use any in this post." 16:54:18 [16:50] anyway, I found a blog post that explained what Wolfram Alpha actually did, rather than hinting 16:54:20 [16:50] http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wolframalpha_our_first_impressions.php 16:54:21 [16:50] although it's very fanboyish 16:54:24 btw what is Devel:: 16:54:25 ais523__: Snap! 16:54:28 the other one listed there 16:54:30 AnMaster: a regular namespace 16:54:36 but Devel::Declare sounds scary 16:54:43 Devel::Declare - Adding keywords to perl, in perl 16:54:46 yep 16:54:52 from its source: 16:54:53 use B::Hooks::OP::Check; 16:55:01 see, my instincts are right! 16:55:07 yes 16:55:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:55:49 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523. 16:57:20 "Alpha is built on top of 5 million lines of Mathematica code which currently run on top of about 10,000 CPUs (though Wolfram is actively expanding its server farm in preparation for the public launch)" 16:57:22 err 16:57:36 that's a lot more than I would have expected. 16:57:40 AnMaster: how else will they deal with the billions of people using it every second with a brain implant? 16:57:44 Wolfram's always been one for scaling up rather than improving his algorithm, IMO 16:57:49 ah 16:58:08 I mean 10,000 sounds like more than I would expect google to use... 16:58:11 or maybe around that. 16:58:17 but the general concept is, it's Mathematica plus a giant database plus a natural language interface 16:58:26 AnMaster: srsly? google has millions 16:58:43 ais523: so if the bat is out of the cag can you finally reveal exactly what it is? :P 16:58:47 you're effectively just doing database lookups through it, although they can be rather complicated 16:58:48 ehird: yep 16:58:52 yaaaaaaaaay 16:58:56 and I have been just now 16:59:13 well wouldn't it be more ram and disk intensive. 16:59:16 at least for google 16:59:18 ais523: well, I suppose 16:59:23 AnMaster: heck no 16:59:34 AnMaster: they have to do lots of index lookup stuff every request 16:59:36 "bat is out the cag"? that is one weird idiom... 16:59:44 cage 16:59:44 it's a spoonerism 16:59:45 I don't get why people compare it with Google, even though Google and Alpha can both be used to determine information 16:59:47 of cat out of the bag 16:59:57 Google finds websites, Alpha is a massive database 17:00:06 ais523: so does it actually work? 17:00:26 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:00:27 I'm not sure 17:00:39 I didn't get to type any queries into it myself 17:00:43 even if it does I wouldn't use it; relying on anything Wolfram is touched sounds like an insanely bad idea to me 17:00:49 *has touched 17:00:54 apparently because the sandboxing wasn't working back then 17:01:06 and they didn't trust me not to bring down their servers, presumably it's been improved since 17:01:19 ais523: "];System["rm -rf /"];Print[" 17:01:29 haha, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work 17:01:44 ais523: i bet the parser is just a huge gob of string replaces 17:01:45 how are they going to make money from it 17:01:51 AnMaster: advertising mathematica 17:01:52 yes there is that pro version 17:01:55 which costs thouasnds 17:01:56 *thousands 17:01:58 if you want to do somethign that takes their CPU more than a few seconds, you have to pay 17:02:03 that also. 17:02:10 ehird, even so I doubt most users would buy it 17:02:13 whoa, moose had multi methods! 17:02:15 <3 17:02:16 *has 17:02:16 and you know how slow Mathematica is 17:02:19 AnMaster: most users don't buy anything. 17:02:23 indeed 17:02:33 I don't agree with the business model anyway 17:02:40 but that's mostly because I believe selling bits is immoral 17:03:04 ehird, damn you. I can't call you a hypocrite for saying that any longer. 17:03:09 Since you are planning to change to Linux 17:03:10 :/ 17:03:14 heh 17:03:22 AnMaster: ehird doesn't mind selling /all/ of it 17:03:27 ais523: huh? 17:03:29 what 17:03:31 oh 17:03:31 hah 17:03:34 I meant digital bits 17:03:36 ah 17:03:37 although I suspect you knew that 17:03:40 ah 17:03:43 and no, I didn't 17:03:46 ok 17:03:56 ais523, oerjan would have been proud of that pun. 17:03:59 well, I think apple could open source all of OS X without much business damage 17:04:03 and I understood ehird meant digital bits. 17:04:11 although in the case of Alpha, they're jealously guarding their database I think, all you get to do is query it 17:04:12 then they'd be selling their hardware + a precompiled, presetup system 17:04:17 which just about everyone would still pay for 17:04:31 well, yes 17:04:37 but then they wouldn't be the only people doing OS X 17:04:37 and only people like me would go to the bother of compiling it to avoid paying 17:04:43 and they'd lose a selling point 17:04:44 ehird, and they would get lots of developers for free 17:04:48 and yes what ais523 said 17:04:50 I mean, someone would be bound to port OS X to commodity hardware 17:04:52 ais523: true, but they'd always have the nicer curves on the hardware 17:05:04 ais523: and - applecare. 17:05:05 yeah selling the stuff that come from people's actual work is immoral, it's okay to get money for whatever physical objects your machinery is able to produce. 17:05:07 are Apple fanboys addicted to the hardware or the software, I wonder? 17:05:08 people really value having a support line 17:05:10 or the service? 17:05:17 ais523: hardware and software IME 17:05:21 oklofok: I assume that was sarcasm? 17:05:25 ehird, you can buy support for dell too iirc 17:05:25 ais523: yes 17:05:42 and so on 17:05:54 "Wolfram will release toolbars for FF and IE, as well as an IE8 accelerator" 17:05:56 err 17:05:57 what 17:06:01 AnMaster: still, most people would go through apple for the pretty hardware, the assurance that they certainly know how to set up OS X, and the support direct from them 17:06:04 what does an accelerator has to do with it 17:06:08 personally, I think it'll be a whole load of work for the Wolfram people to keep their massive database up to date 17:06:21 "Alpha will come in a free version, but there will also be a paid version, which will allow users to download and upload data to Alpha" 17:06:23 oh man 17:06:23 * ais523 tries to imagine Google, except instead of indexing other people's sites they wrote the entire Internet by hand 17:06:30 i can't wait for the first alpha trolls 17:06:44 buy alpha, insert bogus data, ???, lulz 17:06:44 ehird, I think the pretty hardware bit wouldn't be a major selling point, considering the current state of economy, people prefer "cheap" 17:06:50 how many people pay money just to troll? 17:07:03 ais523: there's probably a few 17:07:15 ais523: that would be much better 17:07:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:07:34 AnMaster: cheap people don't buy macs. 17:07:51 % /opt/perl/bin/perl -M'5.010' -e 'say 2+2' 17:07:51 4 17:07:56 yay! 17:07:58 ehird, right, what about the mid-segment though 17:08:08 ehird, I would assume they tracked who did it and discarded such data, and if the problem became widespread probably limit it in some way. 17:08:11 AnMaster: apple don't make any profit from the mid-segment as it is, so they would not lose anything 17:08:15 or maybe mark it is as "not verified" 17:08:27 different background colour or whatever. 17:09:09 ehird, the only reason I would ever consider a mac would be mac os... think of the colour matching and typography 17:09:21 AnMaster: you're not most people 17:10:04 AnMaster: one interesting point is that Apple are the only major retailer to sell near-silent computers 17:10:10 from the mac mini to the mac pro 17:10:17 ehird, what about those who use mac for this reason, I'm talking about people designing ads or newspapers and such 17:10:19 vs the fuss it takes to get a quiet PC 17:10:40 where mac is still rather common 17:10:49 desktop publishing 17:10:53 AnMaster: they're well-off money-wise, in general, so they'd probably just buy an iMac and get it all for no fuss straight from apple 17:11:07 hm maybe 17:11:16 nobody uses Dell's Ubuntu computers, really, either 17:11:31 I do! 17:11:46 ais523_: you are statistically insignificant. :) 17:12:35 but one of the reasons I bought it was to affect the statistics 17:12:44 hm 17:12:45 try being a few thousand more people 17:13:00 ehird, so you are not going to vote? 17:13:07 when you get old enough I mean 17:13:17 i never said that did I? 17:13:30 AnMaster's trying to draw an analogy, I think 17:13:31 ehird, well are you going to or not 17:13:36 Yes. 17:13:46 Do I vote just to change the statistics? No. 17:14:05 ehird, don't bother. Your vote isn't going to change anything. 17:14:08 Of course, I'd tend to vote for someone who has a hope in hell of winning. 17:14:17 AnMaster: it's not a good analogy 17:14:27 voting for the purpose of changing the statistics isn't what voting's meant to be 17:14:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:14:36 ehird, it is. You could consider ais523_ "voting" for the product. 17:14:40 actually, all that's needed with the Dell computers is for them to make a profit on them, and they'll keep going 17:14:44 they aren't going to remove a best seller 17:14:44 you could consider that but you'd be wrong 17:14:52 ais523_, exactly 17:14:58 voting to make someone win isn't the point 17:15:09 you'd like that, but you vote because that's what you think is right. note that this doesn't actually apply IRL 17:15:14 but it's certainly the original intent of voting 17:15:15 they don't need to outnumber the Windows computers or anything like that, just to sell enough of them that Dell's money spent on getting Ubuntu saleable was well-spent 17:15:29 ais523_, yes exactly. 17:15:39 Running [/usr/bin/make test ]... 17:15:39 PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /opt/perl/bin/perl "-Iblib/lib" "-Iblib/arch" test.pl 17:15:40 Features present: preput 1 getHistory 1 addHistory 1 attribs 1 ornaments 1 appname 1 minline 1 autohistory 1 newTTY 1 tkRunning 1 setHistory 1 17:15:43 Flipping rl_default_selected each line. 17:15:45 Enter arithmetic or Perl expression: exit 17:15:47 What the fuck, CPANPLUS? 17:15:49 What? 17:15:51 What do you want me to enter? 17:15:53 "exit"? 17:16:04 Oh, it's testing readline. 17:16:06 Um, 2+2. 17:16:14 Tada, installed. 17:16:18 ehird, no it is enter as in Shakespear 17:16:19 Hey, it didn't even yell at me. 17:16:21 "Enter Hamlet" 17:16:24 heh 17:16:27 "Enter arithmetic" 17:16:41 * ehird % cpanp i Moose 17:16:45 "Enter x or y" doesn't make much sense in that context 17:16:47 cpanp is rad. 17:16:48 "Excuant(sp?) Hamlet and arithmetic" 17:16:58 it's like cpan except less than 100 pages of output 17:17:03 oh and it actually works 17:17:18 grr, I forgot how much I hate windows 17:17:29 ais523_: I heartily recommend compiling a perl in /opt/perl owned by your user, cpan actually works then 17:17:34 and am annoyed at being forced to use it for something for the University 17:17:35 Deewiant, clearly it is a modern play. An analogy for quantum mechanics. 17:17:45 Enter Hamlet OR Ophelia 17:17:48 ehird: what, really? I thought nothing made CPAN actually work 17:17:56 * ehird "s conf prereqs 1; s save" ← Yes, cpanplus, install dependencies automatically. 17:17:57 ais523_: really 17:18:06 Deewiant, so yes it makes sense. 17:18:07 no worrying about root ownership or anything because you just run everything as your user 17:18:16 and whereever it decides to put it works, since it's all owned by you 17:18:22 permissions and dependencies are the two main problems 17:18:25 yep 17:18:30 ais523_: use cpanp(1), not cpan(1) 17:18:35 and in cpanp: 17:18:39 s conf prereqs 1; s save 17:18:44 will make it automatically chase dependencies 17:18:53 ehird, it doesn't do dependencies by default..? 17:18:53 no, the problem is it thinks dependencies are installed even when they aren't 17:18:57 AnMaster: it asks you. 17:19:00 ah 17:19:04 ais523_: yes, I've never had that problem 17:19:06 CPANPLUS probably fixes it 17:19:09 since it's a different codebase 17:19:12 (= cpanp) 17:19:59 I think a CPAN++ is sorely overdue 17:20:03 err 17:20:06 that's the name of cpanplus 17:20:07 :-D 17:20:10 you know, that actually works /even if/ the user doesn't jump through hoops 17:20:18 ehird: CPANPLUS only has one plus 17:20:23 The CPAN++ interface (of which this module is a part of) is copyright (c) 2001 - 2007, Jos Boumans . All rights reserved. 17:20:25 — perldoc CPANPLUS 17:20:27 ah, 17:20:30 CPAN+=3 then 17:20:45 compiling perl is, thankfully, quite easy 17:20:59 ehird, the interactive configure is highly annoying though 17:21:05 AnMaster: -des 17:21:07 ah 17:21:17 I thought you were doing something crypto related 17:21:24 ;P 17:21:44 though insanely insecure 17:22:01 cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10* 17:22:03 ais523_: ↑ 17:22:07 untested, but that's the gist of it 17:22:16 hm 17:22:20 then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D 17:22:23 and you're set 17:22:27 well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path 17:22:27 efunge already have multiple user interfaces.... kind of 17:22:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:22:30 so 17:22:34 ais523: 17:22:37 adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial 17:22:39 17:22 ehird: cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10* 17:22:40 17:22 ehird: ais523_: ↑ 17:22:42 17:22 ehird: untested, but that's the gist of it 17:22:43 using the built in tool server thingy 17:22:45 17:22 ehird: then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D 17:22:46 17:22 ehird: and you're set 17:22:48 17:22 ehird: well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path 17:22:53 Module 'Moose' installed successfully 17:22:54 No errors installing all modules 17:22:56 ^_^ 17:22:58 Without prompting! 17:23:00 Deewiant, what do you think about that 17:23:11 What 17:23:12 for batch jobs only, unless I bother with ajax 17:23:20 Deewiant, adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial 17:23:33 that 17:23:42 % cpanp i MooseX::{Declare,Types,MultiMethods} Modern::Perl 17:23:42 Go ahead 17:23:46 la de da duh 17:23:54 Deewiant, meh. I guess it isn't insane enough 17:23:55 it's so eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy 17:24:06 AnMaster: Implement TRDS and then we'll talk 17:24:43 Deewiant, distributed befunge with SNMP and failover support in case primary funge space server fails, one of the mirrors takes over as new master? 17:24:44 and so on 17:24:47 what about that 17:24:54 but that's not even esoteric 17:25:02 that's just boring shit + vaguely esoteric language 17:25:05 ehird, it is a parody 17:25:07 ... 17:25:10 Why is that boring shit 17:25:16 parodies have to in some way differ from their target... 17:25:16 and not boring 17:25:18 rather interesting 17:25:27 I think implementing distributed stuff is kinda fun 17:25:34 ehird, I didn't say *what* it was parody on. 17:25:40 Deewiant: but not esoteric 17:26:05 ehird: Not in itself, no. That doesn't make it boring shit 17:26:07 ehird, yes since there would be a fingerprint to control this inside efunge then 17:26:24 distributed befunge nodes 17:26:30 Deewiant: I was being hyperbolic to demonstrate the unesotericity. 17:26:43 [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'Devel::Declare' -- cannot continue 17:26:44 [ERROR] Failed to install 'Devel::Declare' as prerequisite for 'MooseX::Declare' 17:26:45 [ERROR] Unable to satisfy prerequisites for 'MooseX::Declare' -- aborting install 17:26:47 [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'MooseX::Declare' -- cannot continue 17:26:48 using erlang as the underlying distribution model 17:26:54 Saying "that's not even esoteric" isn't enough, you have to insult as well? :-P 17:27:05 Deewiant, you are talking to ehird 17:27:08 what did you expect 17:27:09 Deewiant: Do you know nothing about me? :) 17:27:30 Maybe I'm hoping there's some sensible reasoning behind it all 17:27:31 it is the hormones. 17:27:42 I was never an asshole, even at that age :-P 17:27:56 Deewiant, nor was I. But I remember lots who were in school. 17:28:07 It should be noted that I'm rarely serious. 17:28:40 ais523_: ais523: I think CPAN thinking things are installed when they're not is packages not declaring their dependencies properly 17:28:47 If you're being an asshole it doesn't really matter whether you're serious or not. 17:28:58 ehird: no, it's because it's tried to install them in the past, but failed 17:29:07 for some reason it thinks the install succeeded when it does that 17:29:10 ehird, why then do you act like I'm serious. I mean, do you think I'm serious when suggesting a web control panel for a befunge interpreter. 17:29:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:29:20 AnMaster: I don't see why not 17:29:25 oh my 17:29:25 AnMaster: Insofar as you would do it and find it amusing, yes. 17:29:35 it's an insane thing to do, but no less insane than writing a Befunge interp in the first place 17:29:59 ais523, true. But you would need a control panel for a massively distributed befunge system anyway. 17:30:10 with colour coded status page! 17:30:22 showing load percentages and what not. 17:30:54 ais523: actually in this case it just doesnt' have the deps declard 17:30:56 go fig 17:30:59 *declared 17:31:03 AnMaster: That'll be very boring without a program that can actually stress them all 17:31:07 ais523, in any case this functionality would just be a thin wrapper on the top of stuff erlang already provides. 17:31:14 Deewiant, yeah I would have to figure out some. 17:31:17 err, wow, KDE's file selection dialog now automatically tab-completes even if you don't press tab 17:31:22 I'm not sure if that's helpful or not 17:31:35 * ais523 isn't sure if there are any KDE4 users here atm 17:31:38 ais523, the one in 3.5 does too 17:31:40 so how is it new 17:31:40 ais523: you mean just like firefox? 17:31:42 IIRC AnMaster's sticking with KDE3 17:31:43 if so, ABSOLUTELY! 17:31:53 i don't like pressing needless keys 17:31:59 ehird: no, firefox shows a list of suggestions 17:32:03 AnMaster: Implement the better version of MVRS we were trying to turn MVRS into? 17:32:07 ais523: oh, wait 17:32:10 whereas KDE just fills in all letters that couldn't possibly be different 17:32:11 safari selects the first by default, see 17:32:17 I forgot FF doesn't 17:32:23 as in, say you have files abcde, abfgh, and bei in a directory 17:32:24 Deewiant, maybe, once ATHR is done. They would be compatible certainly. 17:32:33 if you type a then you get ab, if you then press c you get abcde 17:32:47 Deewiant, a lot of what I'm working on for ATHR would be needed for MVRS too anyway. 17:32:56 Yep 17:32:58 ais523: yar, that's nice 17:33:13 my main problem now.... 17:33:16 yay, it's installing now 17:33:25 http://erlang.org/doc/man/supervisor_bridge.html 17:33:25 it'll probably take me a bit of getting used to, if I decide to use KDE for anything other than getting the wireless working 17:33:30 figure out how to do that properly 17:33:38 does anyone here know of a good back-to-front font, by the way? 17:33:51 my idea for making KDE work like Gnome is to switch the default font to be back to front, then mirror the screen 17:34:00 ais523, can't you just mirror the rendered text 17:34:04 because it seems to be similar in UI paradigm, just reflected 17:34:12 ais523: :-D 17:34:26 ais523, can't you customise it to work the other way around 17:34:28 oh wait 17:34:28 gnome 17:34:29 sorry 17:34:32 err 17:34:35 he's talking about kde. 17:34:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:34:39 oh wait 17:34:40 making kde look like gnome. 17:34:41 right 17:34:45 then you could do it I bet 17:34:47 no, making it /act/ like Gnome 17:34:49 but why would you want it 17:34:51 I don't much care how it looks 17:34:51 ais523: I think Gnome is better than KDE these days. Heck, even linus switched to gnome (srs) 17:35:09 -!- WangZeDong has joined. 17:35:09 ehird: wasn't that because his favourite Linux distro screwed up KDE4 packaging? 17:35:10 ais523, rendering font back to front wouldn't help. You would need to make all the features work back to front. 17:35:18 ais523: no, he insulted the kde devs iirc 17:35:23 * ais523 wonders why slereah's using the nick WangZeDong 17:35:23 being unfocused or somethin 17:35:24 g 17:35:32 ais523: presumably because of "wang" and "dong" 17:36:19 AnMaster: do you know where the "visible bell" setting is in KDE4? 17:36:22 this computer has a really annoying beep 17:36:43 wait your computers beep? 17:36:44 ais523, for shells? 17:36:44 LOL 17:36:53 ==> Auto-install the 1 mandatory module(s) from CPAN? [y] 17:36:55 err...yes? 17:36:57 I told you to? 17:37:00 Oh, gawd. 17:37:01 or all the other things that beep 17:37:03 This thing shells out to cpan. 17:37:05 ehird: why not just pipe yes into it? 17:37:07 To install its dependencies. 17:37:10 ais523, for anything beeping due to readline 17:37:12 set bell-style none 17:37:13 and yes, most modules do that 17:37:14 ais523: cpanplus doesn't prompt 17:37:14 in inputrc 17:37:15 but cpan does 17:37:19 AnMaster: it wasn't a readline beep 17:37:23 aww 17:37:24 *** Since we're running under CPANPLUS, I'll just let it take care 17:37:24 of the dependency's installation later. 17:37:27 it's clever! 17:37:30 ais523, hm in KDE 3.5 it is in kcontrol 17:37:32 ^_^ 17:38:11 ais523, under system notification 17:38:13 or something 17:38:21 maybe something similar for KDE 4 17:39:40 ah, found it, under Accessibility 17:41:11 hm 17:41:17 ais523, since we are discussing that... 17:41:52 any idea why shift 5 times in a row turns my numerical keyboard into a mouse... 17:42:01 even with all Accessibility options turned off 17:42:11 it is very irritating 17:42:24 something else, I have no clue what, sometimes make my keys slow. 17:42:37 only thing that helps is xset led on && xset led off 17:42:42 for some very unknown reason 17:42:50 I have no idea why xset would help there 17:42:54 for the leds I mean 17:43:02 AnMaster: that's an accessibility keyboard shortcut to turn accessibility features on 17:43:06 AnMaster: it's sticky keys 17:43:08 search for htat 17:43:10 but I think you're muddling the shortcut 17:43:10 to turn it off 17:43:17 ais523, yes but I tried to turn off all such options I found everywhere! 17:43:27 shift * 5 causes modifier keys to work like dead keys rather than hold down 17:43:39 keyboard like a mouse is alt-shift-numlock 17:43:41 ais523, well how do you prevent that from happening 17:43:46 sometimes I need shift 5 times 17:43:48 in games or such 17:43:50 IIRC there's another option to turn off the shortcuts 17:43:59 also, what sort of game would use shift as an input? 17:44:09 err 17:44:11 most 17:44:15 what ehird said 17:44:22 yes, I know they do, I just disapprove 17:44:24 Shift toggles running in Doom and Quake 17:44:32 ais523, I turned off the "enable shortcuts" 17:44:37 but it *still* doesn't help 17:44:55 for all I know it might be in X itself 17:44:58 rather than KDE 17:45:00 no clue 17:45:17 anyway I want all such features off. But I don't know how 17:45:32 but I'm used to MouseKeys! 17:45:38 the touchpad on this laptop doesn't actually work 17:45:55 anyway, I'm kind-of surprised you use a mouse at all 17:46:03 given you're the sort of person who edits conffiles by hand 17:46:18 ais523, How would I use gimp without a mouse. 17:46:30 use the command-line version 17:46:41 ais523, for non-batch operations 17:46:54 err, you can do any interactive operation as a batch operation 17:46:57 just write the commands in one at a time 17:47:12 ais523, some are better done with a mouse 17:47:19 anyone remember hotjava? 17:47:28 ais523, like removing dust from a scanned image. 17:47:30 no, I don't 17:47:37 or such 17:47:39 it was an awful web browser made by sun written in java 17:47:44 quite the rage in the 90s 17:47:52 AnMaster: you don't need a mouse for that; just a cloth or something to remove the dust from the scanner 17:48:10 ais523: but how will the mouse survive? 17:48:12 it needs food... 17:48:14 ais523, yes but there are other stuff you can't do that way, like damaged photos... 17:48:19 dust works well 17:48:32 so just put one in your scanner 17:48:36 uh-oh 17:48:38 and ask it not to nibble the things you scan 17:48:46 ehird: you mean it's not really a mouse, but a giant mite? 17:48:53 oerjan: it's a dust mouse 17:48:53 ais523, try correcting a photo that has been partly water damaged 17:48:57 anyway it is faster with a mouse 17:49:05 I was trying to kill a crashed minimized program 17:49:10 and accidentally killed the panel instead 17:49:11 AnMaster: so is editing and many other things 17:49:19 ais523: F2 17:49:21 gnome-panel 17:49:23 enter 17:49:26 ehird, yes. Vector images too 17:49:27 er, alt-f2 17:49:28 ehird: KDE, not gnome 17:49:33 not just bitmap images 17:49:38 I know of alt-f2, but don't know what KDE's panel is called 17:49:40 ais523: kicker 17:49:46 or should I say 17:49:48 Kpanel 17:49:53 pronounced kuhpannel 17:49:54 ehird, not in KDE4 iirc 17:50:04 ah 17:50:05 plasma 17:50:07 kpanel doesn't work, kicker brought up a font configuration dialog box for no apparent reason 17:50:11 ais523: it's plasma 17:50:21 KDE 3 is kicker 17:50:24 which also handles the widget things 17:50:24 thanks, that worked 17:51:00 * ais523 should stop assuming KDE works like Gnome... 17:51:00 anyway 17:51:14 no one know how to fully turn off these mad input features 17:51:20 yes 17:51:22 sticky keys 17:51:23 ffs 17:51:26 yes it is turned off 17:51:29 hm. 17:51:31 ask #kde. 17:51:41 you think they care about KDE 3.x nowdays 17:51:49 upgrade 17:51:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("KDE obviously works like a Kobold"). 17:51:53 ... 17:51:59 -!- _mut_ has joined. 17:52:17 ehird, to a tiling wm. Good idea. 17:52:25 desktop environment != wm. 17:52:39 Desktop environment = pointless. 17:52:41 indeed. But I tried KDE 4 and I didn't like it. 17:52:42 but tiling wms are unergonomic, so they'd probably fit you. 17:52:45 I think that was 4.2 17:52:52 AnMaster: you can make it look like kde 2, you know. 17:53:02 ehird, can you make it *act* like that too 17:53:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out). 17:53:14 it already does to a large degree. you can probably make it do so even more. 17:53:39 -!- _mut_ has quit (Client Quit). 18:00:00 Module 'MooseX::Declare' installed successfully 18:00:00 Module 'MooseX::Types' installed successfully 18:00:01 Module 'MooseX::MultiMethods' installed successfully 18:00:03 Module 'Modern::Perl' installed successfully 18:00:05 No errors installing all modules 18:01:25 what does Modern::Perl do? 18:01:49 ... 18:02:10 16:34 ehird: our $VERSION = '1.03'; 18:02:10 16:34 ehird: use 5.010_000; 18:02:11 16:34 ehird: use strict; 18:02:13 16:34 ehird: use warnings; 18:02:15 16:34 ehird: use mro (); 18:02:17 16:34 ehird: use feature (); 18:02:19 16:34 ehird: sub import { 18:02:21 16:34 ehird: warnings->import(); 18:02:23 16:34 ehird: strict->import(); 18:02:25 16:34 ehird: feature->import( ':5.10' ); 18:02:27 16:34 ehird: mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' ); 18:02:29 16:34 ehird: } 18:02:31 16:34 ehird: http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm 18:02:33 you mean my flood was for nothing? 18:02:35 :-P 18:02:37 (I didn't know it'd be a flood first time round, in my defense) 18:02:46 yes, I was disconnected at the time 18:03:06 so it's just a "use all features of the most recent Perl", it seems 18:03:23 and "enable strict/warnings/best method call resoltuion thang" 18:03:28 and also the intent is to have more modules in future 18:03:30 like moose and whatnot 18:04:50 i agree. 18:06:41 oklofok: with thwat? 18:06:44 *what? 18:07:03 hm 18:07:14 what is the "sub import" function about 18:07:20 AnMaster: import hook 18:07:21 I mean what is the point of it. 18:07:29 basically, it imports those modules in the importer's scope 18:07:31 instead of just in itself 18:07:33 ah 18:07:36 right 18:07:43 what is the mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' ); 18:07:50 method resolution order 18:08:09 http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.10.0/lib/mro.pm 18:08:09 http://search.cpan.org/~flora/Class-C3-0.21/lib/Class/C3.pm 18:08:11 $ perldoc feature 18:08:11 No documentation found for "feature". 18:08:12 err 18:08:17 what does the feature one do 18:08:29 er 18:08:33 perl --version 18:08:40 This is perl, v5.8.8 built for x86_64-linux 18:08:44 get 5.10 18:08:50 ehird, but what does it do 18:08:53 5.8 is many, many years old and not recommended for future use 18:08:55 and i'm going to when it goes stable 18:08:58 and modern::perl doesn't work with it 18:09:00 on this distro 18:09:02 AnMaster: it is stable 18:09:09 and 18:09:10 NAME 18:09:10 feature − Perl pragma to enable new syntactic features 18:09:14 ah 18:09:20 like import from future 18:09:27 but only for syntax 18:09:30 ais523: oklofok: with thwat? <<< let's just say if it wasn't obvious, i was unlucky. 18:09:32 hm ok 18:09:50 *what, although i'm not sure whether it's an error when quoting, i guess not 18:10:10 maybe you should have quoted my correction 18:10:16 hmm 18:10:18 well actually 18:10:31 i think i'm copying a reference and not the actual data 18:10:41 maybe you should have quoted my correction <-- like this? --> *what? 18:10:41 clearly we need IRC references 18:10:45 because it's a reference to the context, and not just that specific thing you said 18:10:46 all messages have a guid 18:10:50 and you can do [&guid] 18:10:52 so 18:10:55 yes hyperlinks would be nice 18:10:59 [&f7834d] ← this is kinda stupid imo 18:11:07 would be a reply to f7834d 18:11:27 ehird, rather short GUID 18:11:37 AnMaster: locally unique id, then 18:11:48 ehird, wouldn't work for anyone but you then 18:11:51 no 18:11:52 one month uniqueness guarantee. 18:11:56 then they loop 18:11:57 better idea: urn 18:12:06 that's not convenient enough 18:12:11 what's urn 18:12:16 URN 18:12:24 Urn 18:12:32 urrrn 18:12:40 just give me a button to press 18:12:47 [ click here for cake ] 18:12:48 O 18:12:54 don't press Deewiant's! 18:12:56 irc://server/channel//uniqeid 18:12:56 it removes all cake 18:12:58 or maybe 18:13:02 AnMaster: that's not an urn 18:13:03 every sender should lable it 18:13:19 ehird, why not 18:13:23 label* 18:13:25 migh, i'll just google. 18:13:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name 18:13:28 because it's just not 18:13:44 ehird, ah yes. I meant URI. 18:13:47 brainfart. 18:13:49 (botany) The theca of a moss. <<< i'll go with this 18:14:16 "It's official: Windows 7 to be released this week!" 18:14:19 that's fast 18:14:22 hm 18:14:53 they are breaking with traditions. No longer "release late, release seldom" 18:14:54 clearly 18:15:10 well, they have broke with the tradition of backwards compatibility 18:15:20 That means a release candidate, not a release 18:15:28 by mistake 18:15:28 ehird, so windows 95 apps won't have any chance of running 18:15:34 (they're putting an integrated XP virtualizer in the higher-end editions so they can break XP compatibility) 18:15:36 And "release seldom" is not their tradition 18:15:37 7's meant to be just a backwards-compatible as Vista is 18:15:37 Deewiant, aaah! 18:15:47 aaah? 18:15:50 the integrated virtualiser isn't because they meant to break compatibility, just because they did, IMO 18:16:02 Deewiant, yes, about it being a rc not a final 18:16:04 also, mightn't it lead to XP's security problems, I wonder 18:16:05 ? 18:16:05 Deewiant, I don't consider hotfixes releases 18:16:08 ais523: well, some of windows 7 looks good to me so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. 18:16:10 so yes release seldom 18:16:11 and it's not even in there by default 18:16:14 you have to download it 18:16:18 no 18:16:20 not on the higher end ones 18:16:22 or? 18:16:26 the higher end ones need a download 18:16:28 stil 18:16:28 l 18:16:31 the lower end ones don't allow it even with a download 18:16:32 the fact is that some xp apps won't run 18:16:36 AnMaster: Their tradition is to release a Windows every 3 or so years. 18:16:41 whether it's intentional or not, that means that they can start breaking compatibility 18:16:45 Deewiant, yes that is seldom 18:16:57 Deewiant, I'm used to a release per year at least. 18:17:07 AnMaster: many open source projects are much slowr 18:17:08 slowre 18:17:10 slower 18:17:22 ehird, well nethack *does* skew the average. 18:17:24 AnMaster: It's a complete OS + desktop environment + bunch of other stuff 18:17:33 Anyway, lessee 18:17:38 1990 - 3.0 18:17:39 1992 - 3.1 18:17:45 1993? - NT 3.1 18:17:50 1994 - NT 3.5 18:18:02 1995 - 95 18:18:06 The tests for 'PAR::Dist' failed. Would you like me to proceed anyway or should we abort? 18:18:06 Proceed anyway? [y/N]: 18:18:07 1996 - NT 4.0 18:18:13 1998 - 98 18:18:14 Oh, Perl. 18:18:16 Deewiant, err 18:18:18 2000 - ME, 2000 18:18:21 Deewiant, wasn't 98 in 1999 18:18:22 iirc 18:18:28 no 18:18:30 25 jun 98 18:18:32 AnMaster: 98SE was. 18:18:34 really hm 18:18:37 ok 18:18:40 anyone remember 98 PLUS! 18:18:43 AnMaster: But I thought you didn't consider hotfixes releases. :-P 18:18:48 Anyway 18:18:49 2001 - XP 18:19:01 no? 18:19:03 2003? - 2003 18:19:19 2003 wasn't really an official release 18:19:22 for desktop 18:19:24 just server 18:19:28 I was just about to say that 18:19:30 you had to do serious hacking to get it to be desktopy, IIRC 18:19:37 The break in tradition comes here 18:19:39 ehird, yes I remember plus 18:19:40 the name 18:19:44 yeah, XP is a dinosaur 18:19:46 don't remember what it was though 18:19:47 Since desktop releases: 18:19:49 2001 - XP 18:19:56 2007 - Vista 18:19:57 AnMaster: just added wallpapers and sound packs and shit XD 18:20:02 oh 18:20:03 2006 actually 18:20:07 Deewiant: 2009 - 7 18:20:12 Yep. 18:20:14 which is not 7 by any counting methods 18:20:15 :3 18:20:17 so 18:20:27 ehird: It's Windows NT version 7, isn't it? 18:20:32 Nope. 18:20:36 6.something, internally. 18:20:38 6.2? 18:20:44 Counting Windows versions, no way is it 7 18:20:49 unless you just ignore ones arbitrarily 18:20:53 -!- nooga has joined. 18:20:59 shame 18:21:06 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7 18:21:11 Counting the only usable ones ;-P 18:21:18 anyway 18:21:23 hm 18:21:30 lol ME 18:21:32 I used ME 18:21:34 LOL 18:21:38 Me i should say 18:21:38 Deewiant, you added two unusable there 18:21:44 AnMaster: which 18:21:44 95 and 98 18:21:45 ehird: and now you're using Mac? :D 18:21:50 of course ME was worse 18:21:50 95 and 98 are fine 18:21:51 98 was very usable 18:21:55 nooga: Me was many, many years ago. 18:21:56 95 I can't remember much of TBH 18:21:58 ehird, blue screen 18:22:05 AnMaster: Ur doin it rong 18:22:12 95 was incredibly stable, 98 was too 18:22:19 Me was hilariously bad. 18:22:22 OSX, ME same 18:22:33 nooga: i thought you agreed to go away 18:22:33 no 18:22:52 ohhhh 18:22:52 ehird, 95 and 98 tended to crash as soon as any single program did 18:23:03 so did 3.1 of course 18:23:03 i'm just hating OSX for fun 18:23:12 tbh - it's superior 18:23:14 but by 95 they should have got that right 18:23:23 AnMaster: But anyway, as you can see the traditional time between releases is actually around 1-2 years, not even the 3 like I said. 18:23:29 s/like/that/ 18:23:45 Deewiant, you are counting different product lines there 18:23:47 almost true bsd with shiny gui - who needs more 18:23:51 9x and NT were different product lines 18:23:55 so it doesn't make sense 18:23:55 AnMaster: Yes and? All desktop ones 18:23:56 OSX is a superior product to Windows Vista. However, I use neither and I hate Apple's guts even more than Microsoft *shrug* 18:24:05 Apple worse than MS? 18:24:07 That's a new one. 18:24:25 Deewiant, why not count office too. and uh, their other products 18:24:28 Doesn't make much sense but there you go 18:24:41 AnMaster: Because they're completely different things? 18:24:43 Deewiant, really NT and 9x had different development teams iirc. 18:24:45 (more specifically, I hate Steve Jobs) 18:24:49 Deewiant, so are NT and 9x 18:24:55 AnMaster: No, they are both OSs. 18:25:05 Deewiant, ok, so you forgot CE then 18:25:16 AnMaster: Not for desktops. 18:25:18 HOW COULD YOU! 18:25:28 Because I'm being sensible. 18:25:45 the best thing: 18:25:46 Deewiant, ok, but NT was for workstations, 9x for home users. Both desktop yes. But totally different 18:25:48 nuthin' wrong with steve jobs 18:25:53 ('part from cancer) 18:26:02 Deewiant, that is an equally arbitrary limitation. 18:26:10 AnMaster: So should I count the different versions of XP and Vista separately? :-P 18:26:18 That means they did almost 10 releases in a single year! 18:26:35 Deewiant, yes, that is equally flawed. As I said. 18:26:38 * nooga works in a company where every employee has MS exems passed, certified experts, premium msdn shit available, VIP MS support 18:26:40 and 18:26:42 -!- tombom has joined. 18:26:43 I suggest you base it on product line 18:26:50 all folks there carry macbooks 18:26:54 and iphones 18:27:00 AnMaster: Then it's around 2-3 years. 18:27:04 and all developments goes on macs 18:27:06 :D 18:27:20 AnMaster: How often has Linux made a major release? 18:27:20 Deewiant, yes. 18:27:22 wow, that is one seriously visible bell 18:27:28 Deewiant: twice 18:27:36 Deewiant, they stopped doing that model even after 2.6 18:27:41 ais523: Feelable Bell should cause a minor earthquake in your vicinity. 18:27:41 ais523: Exactly. ;-) 18:27:42 it filled the entire screen red for half a second 18:27:53 Deewiant, but you are wrong 18:28:04 Deewiant, you are comparing a kernel + desktop env to a kernel 18:28:07 that doesn't make sense 18:28:15 AnMaster: I thought that was what you were doing? 18:28:19 Deewiant, better compare windows to ubuntu 18:28:22 in that case 18:28:24 Given that you were all "it should release more than once per year" 18:28:25 or such 18:28:28 Er 18:28:28 =.= 18:28:29 Not more than 18:28:37 Deewiant, "at least" yes 18:29:00 use Modern::Perl; 18:29:00 use diagnostics; 18:29:01 use utf8; 18:29:03 use MooseX::Types; 18:29:05 use MooseX::Declare; 18:29:07 Deewiant, anyway, compare kernel + DE to kernel + DE. This means compare NT to ubuntu or NT to red hat or such 18:29:07 yay 18:29:32 someone should build a framework for building OSes 18:29:34 and then 18:29:43 oskit 18:29:46 it exists 18:29:56 err, no, NT's a kernel 18:29:57 it's unavailable and dead 18:30:00 Windows is a kernel + DE 18:30:02 Deewiant, also XP isn't a major release. it was NT 6.1 in fact 18:30:05 err 18:30:06 5.1 18:30:06 even 18:30:07 AnMaster: 5.1. 18:30:11 yes... 18:30:18 AnMaster: you're being wrong on purpose; stop that. 18:30:21 Deewiant, so if you count major releases... 18:30:41 SEKS is superior to all OSes 18:30:44 I was thinking of x.y as a major release actually 18:31:03 Deewiant, then linux kernel made a lot more than windows nt 18:31:11 if you are comparing kernel to os anyway 18:31:27 and ubuntu made a lot more than windows if you are comparing os to os 18:31:55 how do you make symlinks in Dolphin? 18:32:01 Ubuntu just aggregates incremental upgrades 18:32:02 write equations for that 18:32:21 Deewiant, sure. but comparing a kernel to a full OS is just plain wrong. 18:32:39 AnMaster: I'm not doing that. 18:32:54 Deewiant, yes and different product lines 18:32:55 plain kernel is full wrong 18:32:57 I'm saying that Ubuntu's releases are mostly like what you'd call Windows "hotfixes" 18:33:08 ah, control-shift-drag works, just like it does in Windows 18:33:14 * ais523 wonders if the same shortcut works in Gnome 18:33:19 Deewiant, in the same style as combining 9x and NT you should combine ubuntu, redhat, mandrake, suse, slackware, and so on 18:33:21 clearly 18:33:24 Deewiant: SPs, more like 18:33:26 Deewiant: they also upgrade all the software on the system too 18:33:27 just the desktop editions though 18:33:36 ehird: Yes: I said "what you'd call". 18:33:36 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 18:33:39 :-P 18:33:42 stop it please 18:33:44 and things like Paint and Calculator normally only upgrade every few releases 18:33:46 AnMaster: Don't be stupid. 18:33:53 of Windows, that is 18:33:55 Deewiant, same thing as you suggested. 18:33:57 de 18:34:00 er 18:34:01 just the other way around 18:34:01 No, not even close. 18:34:03 Deewiant: he can't, it's inherent 18:34:06 Calculator was upgraded with Vista, but before that I think it was the same since 95 18:34:06 18:34:15 ais523: nah, it changed in xp 18:34:15 iirc 18:34:19 It did, yes 18:34:22 ah, ok 18:34:30 did it change in 7? 18:34:30 notepad 18:34:34 what about notepad 18:34:36 ah, I know, maybe it has a ribbon now! 18:34:42 everything changed in 7 18:34:44 :P 18:34:49 ais523, hah 18:35:10 Notepad is just an edit control 18:35:13 * nooga , as a certified MS expert (sic) has got 7 18:35:20 It's a textbox + file save/open 18:35:45 So no, it won't have a ribbon. :-P 18:35:46 Deewiant, simple search too 18:35:49 7 is quite nice, copared to other naziOSes 18:35:54 oh and cut/copy/paste 18:35:59 hey it is feature rich! 18:36:05 Cut/copy/paste is not a feature of notepad 18:36:10 wow, perl startup time is slow when you add stuff 18:36:15 It works with any textbox 18:36:15 Deewiant, the menu entries are. 18:36:22 but other than that yeah 18:36:23 Oh, sure 18:36:27 ehird: "wait, perl is booting" 18:36:32 Deewiant, what about the search then 18:36:36 i'm serious, it rivals java 18:36:48 "knock knock... who's there?" 18:36:50 % time mx-run HelloWorld >/dev/null 18:36:50 mx-run HelloWorld > /dev/null 0.75s user 0.06s system 99% cpu 0.823 total 18:36:52 I think all textboxes can do search too, I'm not sure 18:36:53 nooga: heard it. 18:36:59 "- perl" 18:36:59 It's just that it's not usually enabled 18:37:00 ehird, what are you adding to perl making it so slow 18:37:01 how was calculator upgraded in vista? 18:37:05 I could be completely wrong though 18:37:08 AnMaster: some Moose shit 18:37:17 mhm 18:37:26 ehird, can't you AOT compile it at all 18:37:32 what 18:37:33 if no, someone should add that 18:37:39 ehird, like python's *.pyc 18:37:48 no, you can't really do that with perl afaik 18:37:53 ah ok 18:37:55 as in, inherently 18:37:57 would be useful for you 18:38:00 I see 18:43:01 There are/have-been all kinds of compilation-related Perl things, but I don't think I've personally ran across any that has proceeded past the experimental stage. In any case, with Perl it's pretty much just the parsing step you could do ahead-of-time. 18:43:32 err, not even that, in many cases! 18:43:36 especially with prototypes around 18:43:49 but with Perl6, this is all going to be different 18:43:50 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:43:53 Can't use string ("4") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at 18:43:54 WAT 18:44:04 ehird: you attempted to dereference a string 18:44:08 ?@ 18:44:10 ?! 18:44:12 that doesn't work in other languages either 18:44:15 ais523: ah nope 18:44:17 but I did ->{foo} 18:44:19 instead of {foo} 18:44:29 ?#@?#!? 18:44:31 so you did attempt to dereference, you just didn't mean to attempt to dereference 18:44:36 nooga: do you not know Perl? 18:44:43 he's mocking perl, probably 18:44:51 considering how funny he usually is (ie not) 18:44:53 but Perl doesn't look like that 18:45:00 no it has lots of symbols and is line noise 18:45:01 HA HA HA! 18:45:15 actually nooga was funny here. 18:45:23 ... no he wasn't 18:45:24 the typical confusion on first seeing perl 18:45:38 ehird: you hate me because i'm Polish ;< 18:45:38 but Perl's way more readable than INTERCAL! 18:45:40 it's just dense 18:45:40 no, I'm sorry, that's even less funny than "I STARTED VI AND THEN IT BEEPED HA HA" 18:46:00 actually, your quote is very funny, but only because of context 18:46:09 as in, it's funny that you're using that particular quote in an amusement comparison 18:46:26 say (...) interpreted as function at HelloWorld.pm line 24 (#1) 18:46:26 (W syntax) You've run afoul of the rule that says that any list operator 18:46:27 followed by parentheses turns into a function, with all the list 18:46:29 operators arguments found inside the parentheses. See 18:46:31 perlop/Terms and List Operators (Leftward). 18:46:32 ais523, yes but perl wasn't designed as an esolang 18:46:36 I love how "use diagnostics" patiently tells you why perl is being stupid 18:46:38 it is one yes 18:46:42 no it's not! 18:46:42 but that wasn't the intention 18:46:47 ehird: oppose! 18:46:51 entry on esolang wiki 18:47:02 god, "Perl is hard to read and looks like line noise, ha ha". can you all go back to #kindergarden? 18:47:28 ehird, perl fanboy 18:47:35 ehird: well, writing printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; doesn't work in C either 18:47:50 ais523: but "printf "abc", 42;" doesn't work in c 18:48:15 well, yes 18:48:42 the problem is that Perl tries to simultaneously support two incompatible syntaxes for function calls, so it has to pick one interpretation when it's ambiguous 18:48:46 which confuses people who intended the other 18:49:24 * AnMaster prefers an easy to parse language 18:50:36 ais523: if you do "use constant FOO => ('a'=>2,'b'=>3)", how do you access the members? 18:50:41 (FOO){'a'} doesn't work 18:50:58 err, you can't assign a list as a constant, that just stored 3 in FOO 18:51:01 {} and [] should be [] 18:51:07 you want use constant FOO => {'a'=>2,'b'=>3} 18:51:13 then you can do FOO->{'a'} 18:51:17 thought so 18:51:28 store a hashref, not a list constant 18:51:31 nooga: lists = hashes 18:52:45 erm? 18:54:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:56:14 there is no sense in discerning [] from {} 18:56:16 printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; <<< doesn't C have the comma operator? 18:56:22 aha 18:56:23 yes, that is valid 18:56:24 as a index operator 18:56:29 an* 18:56:51 yeah, there should be just one syntax for indexing arrays and calling functions 18:56:59 (not that that was what you meant ofc) 18:57:23 ais523: how do you turn a ref into a real again? 18:57:26 %{foo} doesn't work 18:58:02 (is it a form of sarcasm to intentionally misunderstand something and agree, to tell someone you disagree with them?) 18:58:17 oklofok: :O 18:58:31 oklofok: yes 18:58:57 (actually i guess that's kinda obvious) 18:59:08 (hmm) 18:59:09 ehird: into a real what? 18:59:14 hash 18:59:19 %{MESSAGES} doesn't work 18:59:21 %$ref if the ref is stored in $ref 18:59:25 please inform me when your discussion will achieve level that'd be suitably low to invite me again 18:59:39 okay? 19:00:03 ais523: it's stored in a constant 19:00:25 nooga: low like what? 19:00:37 low like hell 19:00:40 ehird: %{MESSAGES()}, I suspect 19:00:53 which you could also write as %&MESSAGES 19:01:04 constants are IIRC implemented as functions returning a constant value 19:01:07 no you couldn't 19:01:11 %&FOO syntax erar 19:01:17 ah, ok 19:01:22 %{&FOO} works 19:01:28 ah, aha 19:01:33 how weird and inconsistent of Perl 19:01:48 % ./hello-world --help 19:01:48 Unknown option: help 19:01:49 usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...] 19:01:51 --style One of k&r, modern 19:01:59 GNU HELLO v3.2 19:02:47 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 70s 19:02:47 HELLO WORLD 19:02:48 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 'k&r' 19:02:50 hello, world 19:02:52 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style modern 19:02:54 Hello, world! 19:02:56 Elliott Hird is brillant. 19:03:08 k&r didn't have a comma in, IIRC 19:03:14 aha 19:03:15 right you are 19:03:41 * ehird 's perl style develops further 19:03:55 "foo" is strings you're printing out or that are otherwise for show 19:04:06 'foo' is for things like defaults, is => 'ro', hash keys, arguments to modules, etc 19:04:54 i don't even know why 19:07:01 TAEB had implicit is=>'ro' for ages 19:07:03 but they removed it again 19:07:10 actually, it was implicit is=>'rw' 19:07:30 http://pastie.org/458830.txt?key=n2prm1hae8gvnrcpvvmuca ← Unholy best practices perl h ello world. 19:07:43 *hello 19:07:55 Needs some word on the error it gives when you pass an unknown style; you get a stack backtrace. 19:08:14 ais523, any progress on Feather 19:09:19 not really, other than more thoughts 19:09:21 I have no code or spec to show 19:09:57 meh 19:10:47 "RAM memory of 96 MBytes is recommended to run OTP on NT. A system with less than 64 Mbytes of RAM is not recommended." <-- hard to believe this is actually part of the documentation for a program released this month. 19:10:57 I guess no one looked at that part for years 19:11:36 how's it? 19:11:51 AnMaster: have you ever read emacs documentation? 19:11:55 i mean the level 19:12:01 If you have "pointer keys", you may use them to navigate the text. 19:12:04 If you have a rich terminal, ... 19:12:04 ehird, Not all of it 19:12:10 If you have a graphical display environment, ... 19:12:13 shit like that's all over the tutorial 19:12:16 ehird, yes some of those sound familiar 19:12:25 and the last one... 19:12:27 is valid 19:12:37 no. it's really not 19:12:40 ehird, you don't ssh to servers a lot? 19:12:47 that's not comparable 19:12:52 well 19:12:53 also, you're meant to use tramp 19:12:57 using emacs remotely is discouraged 19:13:00 I don't have X on a 1U server 19:13:11 tramp+ 19:13:12 ? 19:13:15 ... 19:13:20 how can you not know about tramp? 19:13:28 it lets you edit remote files with a local emacs 19:13:32 ah 19:13:44 app-emacs/tramp I see 19:13:51 it's in the core... 19:13:57 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah. 19:14:01 ehird, I think distro split it out then 19:15:36 http://erlang.org/doc/embedded/part_frame.html is rather funny to read. Like a blast from the past. 19:16:26 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % time ./hello-world>/dev/null 19:16:28 ./hello-world > /dev/null 0.67s user 0.05s system 95% cpu 0.756 total 19:16:30 ais523: do you think that's slow enough? 19:16:36 heh, gnu hello is in macports's mail category 19:16:42 Because it is protected by the GNU General Public License, 19:16:42 users are free to share and change it. 19:16:47 Protected indeed. 19:16:47 gnu hello... 19:16:50 wut 19:16:53 AnMaster: you don't know? 19:16:54 wow 19:16:58 -t, --traditional use traditional greeting format 19:16:59 -n, --next-generation use next-generation greeting format 19:17:00 embedded solaris sounds fun 19:17:01 -m, --mail print your mail 19:17:03 (not a joke) 19:17:05 (it actually reads your mail.) 19:17:17 ehird, it is not in gentoo portage 19:17:21 AnMaster: complain! 19:17:22 GNU Hello is used as a test of packaging and build processes 19:17:26 ehird, why 19:17:32 AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program! 19:17:37 so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements 19:17:49 it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging 19:17:52 ais523: it's a test of how much the gnu project can inadvertently describe itself 19:18:34 ooh 19:18:36 macports only has 2.1 19:18:39 but 2.4 is out 19:19:23 macports=darwin ports? 19:19:32 darwin ports was the name in, uh, 2005? 19:19:58 oh 19:23:33 wut 19:23:41 supervisor_bridge makes no sense 19:26:38 Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.2 [source] [hipe] 19:26:50 why is it called an emulator? 19:27:14 nooga, why not. It is a virtual machine though. 19:27:18 anyway 5.2 is old 19:27:21 very old 19:27:26 it won't be able to run efunge 19:27:32 Erlang R13B (erts-5.7.1) [source] [64-bit] [rq:1] [async-threads:4] [hipe] [kernel-poll:true] 19:27:32 -!- ais523_ has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 19:27:34 that one is 19:27:47 nooga, get a newer one lots of reasons. 19:27:49 um 19:28:23 nah, i'm just reading papers from erlang.org 19:28:29 ah 19:28:54 nooga, which one mentioned hipe btw 19:29:37 http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html 19:29:44 ah 19:29:54 nooga, which page in it 19:30:03 ah shit 19:30:03 it uses those horrible frames after all 19:30:06 frames 19:30:10 yes 19:30:22 just closed the window, sry 19:30:28 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 19:30:28 Option style requires an argument 19:30:29 usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...] 19:30:31 --style One of 70s, bizarro, k&r, modern, scrambled, suicidal, verbose 19:30:33 Bloatware! 19:30:40 ehird, "bizarro" 19:30:48 anyway 19:30:54 pastebin them 19:30:59 % ./hello-world --style bizarro 19:30:59 Farewell, moon! 19:31:07 ehird, there is an important one missing 19:31:12 random 19:31:23 very good idea! 19:31:26 * ehird adds that 19:31:32 wait 19:31:36 i just called an AnMaster idea good 19:31:37 holy shit 19:31:37 ehird, random as in selecting a random style, not a random string 19:31:42 I think 19:31:43 yes 19:31:58 ehird, what are suicidal and verbose 19:33:20 sec 19:36:36 AnMaster: ais523: http://pastie.org/458855.txt?key=1newk9lsd5z1nquivta (note: two separate files, see comments) 19:37:03 comments where 19:37:09 in the paste 19:37:13 ## filename (instructions) 19:37:17 ah right 19:37:20 cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types # this gets you all dependencies apart from MooseX::Runnable 19:37:24 for MooseX::Runnable: 19:37:34 ehird, I thought you meant comments as in "reply to this paste" 19:37:40 and since it was pure text 19:37:45 cpanp i Module::Install 19:37:49 git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git 19:37:52 cd moosex-runnable 19:37:56 perl Makefile.PL 19:37:57 make 19:38:00 make install 19:38:13 if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it. 19:38:18 and yes, that's all a fuss 19:38:23 hopefully moosex::runnable will be on cpan soon 19:38:30 ehird, idea: olde english variant 19:38:38 AnMaster: patches welcome! 19:38:39 :-P 19:38:49 ehird, "hullo, world"? 19:38:52 something like that maybe 19:39:01 Hulloe, thine Worlde! 19:39:12 thine 19:39:14 what does that mean 19:39:15 Yes. 19:39:26 err "Hello, yes world" 19:39:27 And it means something incorrect in this context. 19:39:31 But it sounds olde. 19:39:38 "Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee!" 19:39:44 ehird, I meant genuine olde 19:39:54 But genuine olde english was very... well, regular. 19:39:56 hm 19:40:02 AnMaster: Other languages welcome, btw. 19:40:20 ehird, Swedish: Hej världen! 19:40:35 AnMaster: Would "Hej, världen!" be correct? 19:40:41 ehird, nop 19:40:44 Translations should probably follow "Hello, world!" unless it's unidiomatic 19:40:45 OK 19:40:59 That'd be closer to "Hey, it's the world" or something, I think 19:41:04 haha 19:41:10 "Wow! The world!" 19:41:13 Deewiant: fi? 19:41:26 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:41:27 "Terve, maailma!" is the traditional one, I think 19:41:38 anyway världen == the world, but using "värld" there would make it completely garbage 19:41:59 AnMaster: So you can't say Hello world in swedish? :P 19:42:00 i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/ 19:42:06 wondered* 19:42:17 ehird, "Hello the world" sounds about as strange in English as "hej värld" does in Swedish. 19:42:29 witaj świecie? 19:42:31 Deewiant: no ¨s? 19:42:39 ehird: Nope :-P 19:42:51 If you want, "Päivää, maailma" 19:42:57 ~"Good day, world" 19:43:08 'swedish' => sub { "Hej världen!" }, 19:43:08 'finnish' => sub { "Terve, maailma!" }, 19:43:38 ... 19:44:23 In the fi version the comma is very essential; "Terve maailma!" would mean "A healthy world!" 19:44:30 :-D 19:44:43 And yet, that's the more traditional version, I think 19:45:01 i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/ <-- that is a reverse parody on 4chan right... 19:45:17 Googling for terve maailma gives only commaless versions on the first page of results 19:45:18 Yes, I think it is used as a hello-world-translation; but without the comma I just parse it as "healthy". 19:45:39 add more languages ehird 19:45:46 nooga: gimme some then 19:45:51 fizzie, "hello world" == healthy? 19:45:57 *BLINK* 19:45:59 at the rate this is going I'll be putting up Acme::HelloWorld 19:46:07 ehird: 19:46:09 AnMaster: fi:terve is both the greeting and the adjective "healthy". 19:46:10 AnMaster: "Terve" means healthy 19:46:14 ah 19:46:14 "Witaj Świecie!" 19:46:20 so healthy world then 19:46:20 Polish 19:46:23 The greeting's underlying meaning is something like "be in good health" 19:46:30 nooga: what about "Hello, world!" 19:46:33 Of course, nobody cares about such in practice :-P 19:46:38 Witaj, świece! ? 19:46:42 Everybody just uses it as a greeting 19:46:59 yea, Witaj świecie! 19:47:05 ehird, most languages don't use a , there. Sorry to disappoint you. 19:47:09 AnMaster: THEY SHOULD :P 19:47:12 nooga, he is trying to add a , there 19:47:13 "Wide character in subroutine entry at HelloWorld.pm line 46." 19:47:17 Yyyyeeessss...? 19:47:22 witaj, świece = i order you to greet candles 19:47:31 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 19:47:41 nooga, how did candles end up meaning world 19:47:44 or whatever 19:47:51 ehird: http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#Human 19:47:51 that doesn't make sense 19:47:54 world = świat 19:48:07 Polish Witaj, Swiecie! 19:48:08 but when you talk to the world you say 'świecie' 19:48:12 Deewiant: the fuckin' other scripts are images :-| 19:48:18 nooga, but why did you say "Świecie" then? 19:48:23 and świece = many świeca, świeca = candle 19:48:28 ehird: Huh? 19:48:31 Ah, yes 19:48:32 Some are 19:48:34 Some aren't :_P 19:48:36 s/_/-/ 19:48:48 Arabic one is text 19:48:56 Deewiant: it's Ś 19:48:57 "Moi maailma!" is another Finnish alternative which is harder to misinterpret, since 'moi' isn't really overloaded, but it's not the canonical form. 19:48:59 Persian too 19:49:11 nooga: Yes, I figured you'd get it right 19:49:24 nooga, ah so the upper case S matters 19:49:35 oh wait 19:49:37 the dot over s 19:49:42 I see 19:49:45 ehird, ^ 19:49:46 Swedish Hejsan världen! 19:50:04 Deewiant, no, "Hej världen!" is the canonical one 19:50:19 "Hejsan världen!" would be more like: "Yo, world!" 19:50:20 I am quoting the page, correct it not me 19:50:20 or such 19:50:21 English Hello World! 19:50:25 No comma there, for instance. 19:51:00 http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BIT 19:51:01 what is that 19:51:34 AnMaster: it's by the irregular web comic guy 19:51:38 ah 19:51:45 BIT is an esoteric programming language invented by David Morgan-Mar that treats all data like C treats strings. The language is strongly typed, with two variable types: bit and address-of-a-bit. 19:51:48 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html 19:51:49 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html 19:51:53 Deewiant: snap 19:51:54 hah 19:52:01 ehird, you was first here 19:52:04 same second though 19:54:37 *were 19:54:48 and there's no address-of-address? 19:54:57 The GNU hello translations are "Terve maailma!" for fi, "Hej, världen!" (with the comma) for sv. 19:55:09 GNU? 19:55:14 ... 19:55:22 GNU has that hello world application, you know. 19:55:28 fizzie, that , makes it mean "hey, the world" 19:55:32 I think I'll gladly not know. 19:55:42 AnMaster: Yes, well, you can file a bug report or something. :p 19:55:42 look there the world! quick before he runs away! 19:55:49 fizzie, not worth it 19:55:54 Deewiant: GNU hello can check your emails. :p 19:56:15 I'm sure. :-P 19:56:19 Deewiant: 19:56:26 AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program! 19:56:26 so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements 19:56:26 it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging 19:56:54 Deewiant, if you read the channel... 19:56:57 Deewiant: it really can 19:56:57 -m 19:57:15 ehird, does it have an info page 19:57:17 AnMaster: What? 19:57:21 AnMaster: yes 19:57:26 ehird: Yes, as I said, I'm sure. 19:57:26 ehird, man page 19:57:31 yes 19:57:41 Deewiant, what do you mean with "what" here 19:57:57 AnMaster: I mean, what was the point of pasting that and saying that to me 19:58:23 Hey, the Debian "hello" package is compiled without the mail-reading support. :/ 19:58:39 Deewiant, the thing you asked about recently had already been discussed a short while before 19:58:42 some hours or so 19:59:08 fis@eris:~$ hello 19:59:08 Hello, world! 19:59:08 fis@eris:~$ hello -t 19:59:08 hello, world 19:59:09 fis@eris:~$ hello -n 19:59:11 +---------------+ 19:59:13 | Hello, world! | 19:59:16 +---------------+ 19:59:18 -n 19:59:18 fIt is the most useful program evar. 19:59:19 -t 19:59:19 what 19:59:26 That's "t" and "n" for "traditional" and "next-generation" greetings. 19:59:28 AnMaster: So you were responding to "GNU?" from two minutes earlier? :-P 19:59:33 ah 19:59:44 Deewiant, yes 20:00:04 AnMaster: I just didn't connect it since we had both said 2+ lines after that 20:00:32 There's also --greeting command-line attribute you can use to specify the greeting; so you can use "hello -g foo" instead of "echo foo" in many cases. 20:00:53 I like how the Finnish one tells the user to use UTF-8 20:00:57 [Huom: Parhaan näkymän saat käyttämällä UTF-8-merkistöä.] 20:00:57 ┌────────────────┐ 20:00:57 │ Terve maailma! │ 20:00:57 └────────────────┘ 20:01:11 Yeah, it's that line-drawing thing. 20:01:20 WOW 20:01:21 Yep. 20:01:28 The translation .po files instruct translators to use UTF-8 line-drawing characters and add that note. 20:01:42 But the untranslated doesn't? :-P 20:01:55 Well, no. 20:01:59 20:02:01 __ __ ____ __ ____ 20:02:01 / / / /__ / / /___ _ ______ _____/ /___/ / / 20:02:01 / /_/ / _ \/ / / __ \ | | /| / / __ \/ ___/ / __ / / 20:02:01 / __ / __/ / / /_/ / | |/ |/ / /_/ / / / / /_/ /_/ 20:02:03 How pointless 20:02:05 /_/ /_/\___/_/_/\____/ |__/|__/\____/_/ /_/\__,_(_) 20:02:10 :D 20:02:14 20:02:21 that is nore next generation 20:02:26 I mean in font style 20:02:29 #. TRANSLATORS: Use box drawing characters or other fancy stuff 20:02:29 #. if your encoding (e.g., UTF-8) allows it. If done so add the 20:02:29 #. following note, please: 20:02:29 #. 20:02:30 #. [Note: For best viewing results use a UTF-8 locale, please.] 20:02:53 The fi translator has left out the "please" part. 20:03:01 Unsurprisingly. 20:03:12 why "Unsurprisingly" 20:03:22 It's not translatable. 20:03:34 Deewiant, why 20:03:36 what 20:03:39 There is no explicit "please" in Finnish. 20:03:43 how do you ask someone nicely then 20:03:48 You just ask. 20:03:55 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/458885.txt?key=ppzch1ett4abshfhtoyja new release 20:03:57 Deewiant, then what about asking rudely 20:04:00 It would sound rather unnatural to translate it, more like. "Ole hyvä ja ..." could do it, still. 20:04:18 AnMaster: You add expletives. 20:04:21 hah 20:04:31 Actually I guess that's not even necessary rude in many contexts. 20:04:33 Swedish use "tack" for both "thank you" and "please" 20:04:33 finns are untalkative 20:04:43 You see, unlike other people, Finns are polite by default. :-P 20:04:49 Deewiant, *gasp* 20:04:54 yeah 20:05:03 Does gnu hello have all the exciting variants of mine? 20:05:04 No? 20:05:05 once i've defined that i am polite 20:05:08 Why are you all using it then? 20:05:12 ehird: does yours read mail? 20:05:18 an tried to speak without all that please, here you are, etc 20:05:23 ais523: that's for version 2 20:05:27 ehird, make your read usenet 20:05:29 and it turned out i'm extremely rude 20:05:29 instead of mail 20:05:30 :df 20:05:44 AnMaster: no, it should be a web browser 20:05:45 nooga: is that a vim command? 20:06:02 * AnMaster wonders if there is any news group for ASCII porn 20:06:05 no, it's deformed ":D" 20:06:06 probably 20:06:16 has anyone else got my prog to work? 20:06:27 GNU hello has the translations: bg, ca, da, de_DE, de, el, eo, es_AR, es, et, eu, fa, fi, fr, ga, gl, he, hr, hu, id, it, ja, ka, ko, lv, nb, nl, nn, pl, pt_BR, pt, ro, ru, sk, sl, sr, sv, tr, uk, vi, zh_CN, zh_TW. 20:06:34 fizzie: those aren't variants 20:06:44 Sure, it was again just a comment, not a reply. 20:06:49 % ./hello-world --style random 20:06:49 Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee! 20:06:50 ehird, you should mark all the English ones with english, like english-modern 20:06:51 :-P 20:06:52 and so on 20:06:58 then have a similar set for each language 20:07:00 AnMaster: eh, the language ones are just a variant 20:07:11 It's a bit anglocentric :P 20:07:23 ehird, sad. 20:07:32 AnMaster: translated versions would translate the variants to their language, and then remove their language as a variant and add english 20:07:50 that way the user gets a lot in their own language 20:07:58 ais523: do you know latin? 20:08:02 err 20:08:35 ehird: I have a GCSE in it 20:08:38 but I only scored a B 20:08:45 ais523: good, what's "Hello, world!"? :-P 20:09:01 Ave, something 20:09:06 Ave mundus 20:09:09 no, hello is salve 20:09:09 The ISO-639 code for latin is "la"; it seems that GNU hello doesn't have that translation at all. How faily. 20:09:22 Ave has a slightly different meaning 20:09:27 Salve mundus 20:09:32 ehird, semi-olde Swedish variant: "Varde hälsad du sköna värld i nådens år $YEAR" (yes replace $YEAR with current four digit year). 20:09:33 I forget the difference between the two 20:09:38 and I'm not entirely sure that mundus has the right meaning 20:09:45 wasn't u=v in some form of old latin or sth? 20:09:45 Deewiant: Ave's more what you use to report to a commanding officer 20:09:56 AnMaster: is that like "Hello in the living place of 2009" 20:10:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:10:04 ehird: vowel u and consonental u were both written using the v glyph 20:10:10 they were different letters, just written the same way 20:10:13 SALVE MVNDVS 20:10:14 Hmm 20:10:15 :-P 20:10:15 ehird, literal English variant would be "Be greated, you beautiful world in the year of $YEAR" 20:10:19 something like that 20:10:42 what's untranslatable 20:10:42 :-P 20:10:46 nådens 20:10:48 that bit 20:10:51 i mean, what does it mean 20:10:57 ehird, that is the issue! 20:11:00 and don't try any of that saphir-whorf shit on me 20:11:03 I don't know the English term 20:11:06 :-P 20:11:19 ehird, wth is "saphir-whorf" 20:11:23 ../ 20:11:26 Sapir-Whorf 20:11:39 TNG related then I guess. 20:11:42 but still, what is it 20:11:44 No. 20:11:51 ok then what is it... 20:11:51 TNG's dude is Worf. 20:11:53 I was wondering if it was untranslatable due to being too rude 20:11:56 Deewiant, ah 20:12:00 ais523, no 20:12:07 You beautiful world in the fuckassbullshitdick year of 2009! 20:12:10 no, i don't think so 20:12:22 I think that would be a brilliant quote 20:12:24 Something like "in the Lord's year"? 20:12:29 Deewiant, yes! 20:12:29 The Finnish translation of "nådens år" is "armon vuonna", but I too don't exactly know the English one. 20:12:31 "Be greeted, you beautiful world in fucking 2009!" 20:12:32 "armon"... yeah 20:12:38 ais523, see what Deewiant said 20:12:42 I'm not entirely sure what it would mean 20:13:00 it's weird seeing ais523 swear :D 20:13:05 and in English, in translates as "AD" normally, which is short for "Anno Domini", normally translated into actual English as "in the year of our lord" 20:13:05 anyway it is geniune® Olde Swede 20:13:07 that bit 20:13:09 the rest isn't 20:13:12 'twas in quotes :P 20:13:14 ehird: yep, I can, just normally don't, I don't see the point in it 20:13:15 ais523, yes that would work 20:13:38 Actually the free dictionary has the almost-literal translation "year of grace" too. 20:13:45 Year of the grace 20:13:46 Yeah 20:13:52 ehird, do you think it is weird when I swear 20:13:53 "year of grace - any year of the Christian era". 20:13:55 just wondering 20:13:58 Gah, why are your dictionary lookups faster than my thoughts :-P 20:13:58 AnMaster: not really 20:14:02 ehird, I don't think I do it often. 20:14:09 pingity ping ping 20:14:14 pong 20:14:14 possibly in abbreviations 20:14:20 Gracenotes, pang 20:14:46 Ping pang pong poing prng poong peng 20:14:50 and why has none ever got the reference so far... 20:14:52 :( 20:15:01 Eshell V5.7.1 (abort with ^G) 20:15:01 1> net_adm:ping(nosuch@node). 20:15:01 pang 20:15:10 seriously go use distributed erlang! 20:15:19 Getting a reference doesn't imply saying that one did 20:15:19 is pang what you get when there isn't a pong? 20:15:40 And besideswhich, I've responded "pang" to ping before without knowing that that's what Erlang does in that case :-P 20:15:42 So if you want to be rather literal-minded, it seems that also "-- you beautiful world in the year of grace 2009" would be passable English. At least that structure is used in the interwebs somewhere, which must mean it's correct. 20:15:46 Deewiant, true, but did you get it. 20:15:50 ais523, yes 20:15:54 No, I didn't. 20:15:59 (test@tux)1> net_adm:ping(node()). 20:15:59 pong 20:16:06 (too lazy to set up two notes) 20:16:08 "PING? PONG!" is what mIRC used to print for server-pings in the status window. 20:16:10 nodes* 20:16:17 My second line's point was that even if I had known it I wouldn't have considered it a reference. 20:17:21 ehird, reversed should be a separate option. Since you can reverse any of the variants 20:17:25 so you have --reverse or such 20:17:37 AnMaster: reversing all the variants isn't really t hat intersting 20:17:47 i just put the reversed variant in for completeness 20:17:48 ehird, true, but you wanted bloat 20:17:54 and 20:17:55 I had my ircII scripted to print that "PING? PONG!" message too, because I had to know when the server ping happened in order to have enough time to disconnect the modem and redial without getting a ping-timeout from IRC. (It was PPP with a static IP and I got it to keep the interface up.) 20:18:04 ehird, having more reversed variants == more complete 20:18:16 hm 20:18:24 ^scramble Hej världen! 20:18:25 Hjvle!ndr e 20:18:25 !dlrow, olleH is common 20:18:27 err 20:18:31 fail yeah 20:18:33 !noom ,llewrraF isn't 20:18:47 fizzie, implement utf-8 parsing in fungot! 20:18:48 AnMaster: is. absorb it on my door, which was one, will terminate abnormally or otherwise fail operate correctly. 20:18:53 ^style 20:18:54 Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 20:18:54 Fungot doesn't do utf-8 in brainfuck input; the cells are one-byte anyway. 20:19:03 ^style alice 20:19:04 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 20:19:11 fizzie, hm true 20:19:32 Okay, it doesn't do utf-8 anywhere, but it doesn't really show up in other places. :p 20:19:42 !dlrow, olleH is common <-- yeah. In befunge. 20:20:06 fizzie, ah yes no string splitting in underload... 20:22:11 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW"). 20:22:24 ^unscramble Hlo oldrw,le 20:22:24 Hello, world 20:22:57 uh oh 20:22:58 no ! 20:23:05 ^scramble Hello, world! 20:23:06 Hlo ol!drw,le 20:23:21 ^unscramble Hjv€le!ndrà e 20:23:21 Hej vÂrdlne! 20:23:23 haha 20:23:34 yeah my client tries to guess encoding 20:23:40 but always sends in utf-8 20:24:02 ehird, anyway the scrambled one isn't common I think 20:24:05 ^show scramble 20:24:06 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 20:24:18 fizzie, still that >> vs 2< bug 20:24:20 I see 20:25:21 so anyone managed to run my prog yet 20:26:37 what program, ehird 20:26:44 >_< 20:26:56 :) 20:27:25 Yes, haven't had time to fix it yet. It's strange that I hadn't noticed that bug; obviously I don't do much testing. 20:31:12 ehird, I haven't planned to do it, too much work with this moose thing 20:31:22 plain perl and I might have done it 20:31:35 AnMaster: Barely any perl script works with NO cpan stuff 20:31:37 if ais523 didn't write it 20:31:45 problem is tha tMooseX::Runnable isn't in cpan yet. 20:31:52 ehird, sure but at least common ones 20:32:02 AnMaster: "cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types" will get you most of the way in one shot. 20:32:17 Also, Moose is common 20:32:20 Very common 20:34:18 Moose. 20:34:29 Meese. 20:34:35 Mice. 20:34:41 Moce. 20:34:44 Motes. 20:34:53 Dust. 20:34:57 Cabbage. 20:35:04 Babbage. 20:35:04 Cab-barge. 20:35:10 Turing. 20:35:16 Dog. 20:35:21 Haskell. 20:35:21 Log. 20:35:26 Fog. 20:35:28 Hey, you can't do two in a row! 20:35:33 Column! 20:35:37 GregorR: I did, and I feel kind of bad about it :( 20:35:42 Good. 20:35:42 Slalom 20:36:16 Green. 20:36:21 Spleen. 20:36:24 Ouch. 20:36:38 AnMaster. 20:36:39 Is. 20:36:39 That. 20:36:41 Cpanp. 20:36:43 Working. 20:36:53 Nope. 20:36:58 Well. 20:37:20 I did it with plain cpan and it worked fine. 20:37:35 Yes, it should. 20:37:38 But I said AnMaster. 20:37:43 Deewiant: Did you do the git dance? 20:37:50 The git dance? 20:37:56 back 20:37:57 19:37 ehird: cpanp i Module::Install 20:37:57 19:37 ehird: git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git 20:37:58 19:37 ehird: cd moosex-runnable 20:38:00 19:37 ehird: perl Makefile.PL 20:38:02 19:37 ehird: make 20:38:04 No, I did not. 20:38:04 19:38 ehird: make install 20:38:06 19:38 ehird: if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it. 20:38:15 ehird, I'm not about to do it 20:38:18 just forget it. 20:38:21 AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant. 20:38:23 ehird: long, hard english word please... testing speech synthesiser 20:38:28 But I said AnMaster. 20:38:31 AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant. 20:38:32 nooga: Penis. 20:38:33 nooga: antidisestablishmentarianism 20:38:33 nooga: apoplectically 20:38:33 great! 20:38:34 nooga: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 20:38:45 nooga: Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis. 20:38:48 Deewiant: While I'm at it, latest version: http://pastie.org/458917.txt?key=d9dsr9gkycblxacz9x2qxg 20:38:52 Deewiant, did you look that one up 20:38:56 AnMaster: No. 20:38:57 ... 20:39:06 mhm 20:39:07 why would you have to look supercalifragilisticexpialidocious u 20:39:08 p 20:39:18 appendicectomy 20:39:20 Sesquipedalian words are easy to remember. 20:39:26 brb 20:39:31 Deewiant, Sesquipedalian... 20:39:38 Look it up? :-P 20:40:09 One-and-a-half-footed 20:40:26 Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is a tvtropes trope; that's the only use so far I've seen. 20:40:29 :{ 20:40:32 nooga, what about olde English. Thy shalt notte take listhen to a speecth synth saying this. 20:40:40 (made up) 20:40:43 :P 20:40:45 brb 20:40:52 crashed my virtualbox 20:41:07 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:41:15 fizzie: Sounds like one of my old googlewhacks 20:41:23 fizzie, I refuse to read on tvtroupes. Take too much time. 20:41:42 it is a tl;dr where d is "did" in this case. 20:41:43 I still have a text document containing 67 pairs of words that were once googlewhacks 20:42:06 "oracular thingamabobs" 20:42:23 "vampiric icosahedra" 20:42:29 I don't think thingamabob is a real word, although it is a very commonly said one :P 20:42:48 These are only the ones that were accepted by googlewhack.com; it uses (used?) dictionary.com to check them 20:42:58 Thingamabob is in dictionaries 20:43:12 I remember one I got on googlewack, but it's not a googlewhack anymore :( 20:43:14 "promiscuous neodarwinism" 20:43:35 oxyacetylene vasectomies 20:43:37 Was mine 20:43:49 otorhinolaryngological astronauts 20:43:50 promiscuous neodarwinism :D 20:44:17 titillative minutiae 20:44:33 Deewiant: Based on the number of results for those nowadays, the internets truly were smaller back then. 20:44:34 * ehird tries to get one with googlewhacking in 20:44:41 not "googlewhacking presbyterians" :-( 20:44:52 Oh, there's an honorary mention for exactly 666 results 20:44:53 gnomic difficulties 20:45:00 fizzie: And yes, they were. 20:45:05 It's much harder to googlewhack these days. 20:45:12 why? 20:45:29 Google indexes x*10000 pages instead of x. 20:46:01 not "polyhedral frightening" 20:46:02 Also, Google does spelling correction. 20:46:03 this is hard 20:46:14 DOBELA ecru 20:46:16 see, it's not hard 20:46:18 at all 20:46:21 not "polyhedral acupuncture" either 20:46:26 ais523: 2 results here. 20:46:29 ais523: those aren't in the dictionary 20:46:33 only one on my Google 20:46:35 And we're working with dictionary words. 20:46:45 I thought ecru was a real word 20:46:50 DOBELA isn't. 20:46:50 not "acupunctural pokemon" either 20:46:51 and DOBELA's a real word in this channel 20:47:02 Not in the dictionary, though, which is what counts. 20:48:38 "polyhedral dancemaker" 20:48:40 still nope 20:48:55 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=polyhedral+acupunctural+dancemaker&btnG=Search 2 words but 3 results 20:49:57 The spelling correction is making this a real pain. 20:50:05 "Crescentic" matches "crescent" -> 1000s of results. 20:50:18 yeah 20:50:27 mugwumpery's vividest -> 2 results, darn. 20:50:34 Both wordlists, though. 20:50:46 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=monk-jumping+wampeter&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 20:50:48 this is impossible 20:51:09 You'll note wampeter doesn't actually appear in the top result. 20:51:21 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=unknown+moveritis&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 20:51:22 two results 20:51:31 ... 20:51:33 Moveritis? :-P 20:51:34 :P 20:51:38 Deewiant: yes 20:51:45 MOVING DISEASE 20:51:46 Deewiant: where you can't stop being a mover! 20:51:58 "unknown malt-tickler" has 733 results 20:52:39 "polyhedral acupunctural-tickler" has 152; clearly my word choices suck 20:53:20 Results 1 - 2 of about 0 for mugwumpish redcar. 20:53:22 About 0 :-P 20:53:33 2 ~= 0 20:53:44 You'd think it'd say "about 2". 20:53:50 Like it does for mugwumpish permittivity. 20:53:51 Or "exactly 2" 20:54:14 Damn wordlists. 20:54:14 Results 1 - 10 of about 4,650 for eucharistic acupuncture. (0.51 seconds) 20:55:27 Results 1 - 10 of about 166 for two resultitis. (0.23 seconds) 20:55:50 Yay, whack 20:55:57 Let's see if Googlewhack.com accepts it 20:56:07 Deewiant: What is it? :O 20:56:28 Darn, googlewhack.com sees 2. 20:56:33 ehird: mugwumpish sweetbreads 20:56:38 :D 20:57:12 Results 1 - 10 of about 1,380 for neologistic poltergeist. (0.13 seconds) 20:57:16 * GregorR can't stop watching Happy Tree Friends. 20:57:22 Even though it makes me hate life :P 20:57:44 Wordlists are annoying. 20:57:51 Very. 20:58:03 They, too, are much more promiscuous than when I was last whacking. 20:58:16 Results 1 - 10 of about 4,710 for promiscuous wordlist. (0.65 seconds) 20:58:19 Results 1 - 10 of about 24 for zygotic gastrolavage; and *all* those seem to be wordlists. 20:58:29 Yep, most of my results are only wordlists now. 20:58:36 Googlewhack rejects wordlists, BTW. 20:58:40 Results 1 - 10 of about 1,330 for embarrasment-wrought designation. (0.26 seconds) 20:59:15 Results 1 - 10 of about 4,090 for eukaryotic ambassador. (0.25 seconds) 20:59:18 The thing to do is get something with very few results, look for a non-wordlist and try to match only that result 20:59:29 ehird: Except that all ambassadors are eukaryotic :P 20:59:40 ehird: Although that's not the first word I'd think of to describe them. 20:59:49 :D 20:59:57 Damn you, people.sc.fsu.edu/~burkardt/datasets/words/wordlist.txt! 21:00:12 That thing's given me at least 5 two-results 21:02:43 Results 1 - 5 of 5 for eukarytoic misunderstandment. (0.24 seconds) 21:03:38 Your search - -the -a - did not match any documents. 21:03:42 pity 21:03:47 I was going for an anti-Googlewhack 21:03:53 but I bet Google doesn't do them 21:04:05 besides, there blatantly aren't any 21:06:43 Argh, now Googlewhack sees 0 for my whack. 21:06:47 Still, it's a wordlist. 21:06:51 delapidate mugwumpishness 21:08:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:08:29 besides, there blatantly aren't any 21:08:30 err 21:08:34 yes 21:08:41 but not in English 21:08:50 ? 21:08:55 did you restrict it to "English pages" 21:08:57 in the search 21:09:05 I mean, I'm sure there are at least four websites which have mutually disjoint sets of words 21:09:17 ais523, what 21:09:45 ehird: explain to AnMaster, please? 21:09:58 ais523: sorry, psychologist says I'm not allowed to do that any more 21:10:03 I know what goooglewhack is 21:10:07 apparently it's very important 21:10:12 but what is "mutually disjoint sets of words" 21:10:17 well, by my search of -the -a, can you guess what I meant by antigooglewhack? 21:10:23 ais523, yes 21:10:51 ais523, but I'm saying there is such pages. Most Swedish ones wouldn't have either for example. 21:12:09 ... 21:12:56 I assume the "aren't any" meant that there aren't any antigooglewhacks, not that there aren't any pages without "the" and "a". 21:13:01 ah 21:13:23 maybe it won't try to do hits like that if there is no positive part ot match on 21:13:59 duh 21:15:51 Gah, Googlewhack needs to start using the same Google I'm using 21:15:55 vivisecting zeya 21:16:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:16:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:16:40 "Sorry, Google does not serve more than 1000 results for any query. (You asked for results starting from 222333444.)" That's very limited. 21:16:50 Yay, got one which it sees but it's a wordlist 21:17:02 I think I'll be satisfied with that 21:17:16 "Results 1 - 10 of about 17,710,000,000 for a"; I was hoping it'd let me browse all those 17 short-scale-billion pages. 21:17:18 what's the point in claiming there's billions of results if we can't see them all? 21:17:44 You can see them all with different queries 21:18:06 But I'd like them ranked in the relevance to the query "a". 21:18:09 And so that you can googlefight, of course. 21:18:43 Also funny that if you do start=1000000000 and it gives that message; but for start=2000000000 it prints results 1-10 and ignores start. 21:19:28 fizzie, err: " Results 1 - 10 of about 16,070,000,000 for a. (0.24 seconds) " 21:19:35 it varies each time I hit search 21:19:41 Results 1 - 10 of about 31,560,000,000 for a. (0.05 seconds) 21:19:41 Search Results 21:19:41 1. 21:19:49 Gah, where did those two lines come from 21:19:52 Anyway, I win 21:19:59 Results 1 - 10 of about 4,750,000,000 for an [definition]. (0.18 seconds) 21:20:08 Results 1 - 10 of about 8,250,000,000 for an 21:20:13 meh 21:20:19 My Google is twice as good as yours 21:20:30 Deewiant, twice as many irrelevant results you mean 21:20:41 No, they're all relevant 21:20:44 I checked 21:20:49 sure :P 21:21:05 Yahoo wins: 1 - 10 of 31,600,000,000 for a 21:21:06 Results 1 - 10 of about 2,660,000,000 for google. (0.19 seconds) 21:21:20 Curious fact: start=1073741824 (which is 2^30) is the largest number it "accepts" (in the sense that it complains instead of showing results 1-10). 21:21:20 Results 1 - 10 of about 2,670,000,000 for google. (0.06 seconds) 21:21:40 Yahoo: 1 - 10 of 4,560,000,000 for google (About) - 0.04 s 21:21:51 hah 21:22:17 Results 1 - 10 of about 2,460,000,000 for yahoo [definition]. (0.29 seconds) 21:22:45 Results 1 - 10 of about 6,480 for cfunge. (0.18 seconds) 21:22:46 hm 21:22:56 I think I had 0 results when I selected that name 21:22:56 1 - 10 of 7,360,000,000 for yahoo (About) - 0.04 s | 21:23:12 1 - 10 of 10,200 for cfunge (About) - 0.25 s 21:23:22 about? 21:23:29 Same as Google's about. 21:23:36 using yahoo or google 21:23:40 Or no, it's a link. 21:23:51 Results 1 - 10 of about 1,500 for efunge. (0.12 seconds) 21:23:51 (About) -> Yahoo 21:23:56 heh 21:24:02 1 - 10 of 186 for efunge (About) - 0.21 s 21:24:05 Less there 21:24:46 My google gave just: Results 1 - 10 of about 2,440 for cfunge. It's a anti-befungeist. 21:24:58 You've been training it poorly 21:24:59 Results 1 - 10 of about 125,000 for ccbi. (0.21 seconds) 21:25:07 most aren't befunge related 21:25:09 Ditto here for google 21:25:18 none are on first page 21:25:33 315000 for yahoo 21:25:34 Deewiant, ccbi isn't googable 21:25:45 I mean for finding your ccbi 21:25:49 AnMaster: It's the conforming concurrent befunge-98 interpreter 21:25:58 -!- nooga has joined. 21:26:01 Deewiant, I always try to select a name with less than 10 hits for new projects 21:26:01 Also "Did you mean: clunge" sounds somewhat... disparaging. The connotations are "clunky" and "kludge", at least for me. 21:26:03 helps searching 21:26:04 wtf is with gmail 21:26:13 AnMaster: As do I, and I did. 21:26:15 fizzie, I don't get that here 21:26:19 nooga, qmail? 21:26:49 Deewiant, so "Conference of Catholic Bishops of India" was added later 21:26:52 wow 21:27:19 :-P 21:27:51 CCBI was a rename so I might not have been careful there. 21:28:03 The long form is googlable, FWIW. 21:28:19 !befunge returns same results as befunge 21:28:22 :( 21:28:34 befunge risc and it's the first result. 21:28:41 Deewiant, you renamed from the long form 21:28:43 huh 21:28:49 No. 21:28:57 From "dcbefunge" and possibly something else before/after that 21:29:05 "dcbefunge" meant 21:29:09 I wanted the name = handprint 21:29:27 Deewiant's / D, not sure which, Concurrent Befunge 21:29:43 I think, anyway. 21:29:43 google for 26^4 combinations, and select the least frequent term 21:29:49 Might have been conformant but I think it was concurrent. 21:30:12 Deewiant, dcbefunge should have been a befunge implemented in dc(1) 21:30:16 Deewiant: Crunchy. 21:30:18 lucky you renamed it in time 21:30:23 :-P 21:30:33 fizzie, that was a very fizy comment 21:30:35 indeed. 21:30:37 Is dc(1) powerful enough for that? 21:30:45 Deewiant, it is tc iirc 21:30:47 so yes 21:31:04 Deewiant, not saying it would be easy though 21:31:22 Oh, of course not 21:32:49 * nooga plays Go 21:32:51 yeah 21:33:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:34:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:39:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:39:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:47:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:48:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:57:09 ais523: Connection problems? 21:57:14 yep 21:57:34 me too 22:06:21 you didn't reconnect 22:09:18 "[MY STATE]: [MY COUNTY] health officials announce one suspected swine influenza case under investigation." 22:10:20 what is this swine flu shit 22:11:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:28:36 -!- poseidon has joined. 22:29:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:33:32 -!- poseidon has left (?). 22:36:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:48:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:58:56 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 23:01:16 "I think that the average coder gets about 10-20 lines of code written in a day." 23:01:19 Bit of a low estimate... 23:06:17 Don't say such things. First day at the lab tomorrow :( 23:07:04 Slereah: wut 23:10:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:10:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:12:31 Work :( 23:12:37 Where I have to code shit and stuff 23:13:57 Slereah: wait but it's the LHC isn't it 23:14:01 or sth? 23:14:15 if it is um just don't fuck it up okay 23:15:12 I'll make it shoot holes in your pots and pans 23:15:22 I just do theoretical models, don't worry 23:15:38 Slereah: why are you clever 23:16:19 Slereah, which lab 23:16:23 is it really LHC 23:16:36 well he did his study thing on the lhc 23:16:39 so i assume it's related 23:16:45 hm ok 23:16:49 wat 23:16:55 I did no study thing 23:17:10 I get an internship for two months starting tomorrow 23:17:13 Slereah, what lab... 23:17:18 At the local lab, Subatech 23:17:25 Who works on some parts of the LHC project 23:17:33 I always thought Slereah was some 4chan /b/tard. I guess I was wrong. 23:17:35 http://www-subatech.in2p3.fr/ < thar 23:17:38 AnMaster: He is. 23:17:38 I am. 23:17:46 oh 23:17:53 Lawl @ prejudice. 23:17:56 Slereah, in English 23:18:08 No can do boy 23:21:48 Remember that 4chan are nice people, too 23:21:48 http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3765/30255d5e4e.jpg 23:23:55 If you make a mistake that means the models say we won't die when we will die, I'll just have to watch the LHC kill you before dying myself 23:24:06 > 23:24:24 that's not just failed 23:24:25 that's aborted. 23:25:53 -!- coppro has joined. 23:26:27 hi coppro 23:27:44 hi 23:31:43 Plus, it's an internship 23:31:51 I think they'll check up at the end 23:39:48 Sgeo, are you trying to suggest it was humor. 23:44:01 -!- calamari has joined. 23:48:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:49:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:54:22 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 23:56:04 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).