00:01:30 <Deewiant> With the disclaimer that if I rebase again you might have to clone again. :-P
00:01:57 <Deewiant> The bugfixes are only on the 'master' branch.
00:02:09 <Deewiant> I'm going to sleep now ------->
00:03:25 <ehird> I found out the problem
00:03:28 <ehird> you have to hack the ldc code
00:03:36 <ehird> to use extern (C)s
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00:11:12 <ehird> Because the LDC developers are braindead.
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00:32:33 <ehird> They are doing nothing.
00:32:37 <ehird> Because they all use linux-32.
00:35:59 <pikhq> It sorta works on linux-64.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Those are the two architectures it can work on.
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01:47:07 <pikhq> Judge seals court after it's argued that discussing the details of CSS would "violate trade secrets."
01:47:45 <pikhq> Said judge needs to read a certain epic haiku, methinks...
01:48:02 * oerjan picks up his eye after it rolled out
01:53:52 <pikhq> ... You have a glass eye?
01:54:46 <oerjan> no, it's a metaphorical eye
01:55:50 <oerjan> those roll very smoothly
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06:37:54 <kerlo> I used to rule the world
06:38:00 <kerlo> This lyrics site sucks.
06:38:40 <kerlo> pikhq: does an epic haiku consist of 24 chapters with an average of 17/24 syllables each?
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15:12:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I ran into a product with non-plug-and-play USB today btw.
15:12:49 <ais523> most things are like that on Windows, it seems
15:13:38 <AnMaster> ais523, same eletrical piano that I mentioned before. I tried connecting the usb cable while it was turned on, it didn't work until I turned the piano off and then on.
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15:14:30 <AnMaster> I guess "plug and play" was wrong word. Rather "connect while powered on"
15:14:34 -!- shahri has left (?).
15:14:47 <AnMaster> which to me is part of "plug and play"
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15:45:23 <ehird> I'm about to say something that anyone who knows me - probably esp. ais523 as I rant to him a lot -
15:45:27 <ehird> will think I've been replaced by a double
15:45:49 <ais523> well, those lines were rather in character, what's your out-of-character line?
15:46:01 <ais523> have you suddenly decided you like Ubuntu's font rendering, for instance?
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15:47:07 <ais523> hi noogah, why the beh?
15:47:16 <ehird> he's probably busy hating his mac.
15:47:32 <nooga> i thought i'd manage compiling sadol to C using C constructs, but now i am afraid that i'd rather should compile to realy basic operations and hold own stack and variables doing for registers
15:47:34 * ais523 decides making an announcement that you're about to say something important and then not saying it is somewhat out of character for ehird
15:47:53 <ehird> ais523: I was waiting for nooga to start idling, so that my insanity could be undisturbed
15:48:13 <ais523> *indeed out of character
15:48:36 <nooga> ehird: nope. i just discovered RubyCocoa
15:48:46 <ehird> nooga: you want to run that on an iphone?
15:48:50 <nooga> things got better instantly
15:48:54 <ehird> that thing will be slow as fuck
15:49:15 <nooga> yea, but now i'm happily coding desktop apps
15:49:27 <ehird> i thought making iphone apps was your job :p
15:50:03 <nooga> but i'm trying to relax
15:53:30 <ehird> ais523: sartak works on taeb right?
15:53:41 <ais523> sartak's chief maintainer, I think he invented it
15:53:51 <ehird> a blog post of his is on reddit, heh
15:53:59 <ehird> does TAEB use Moose?
15:54:04 <AnMaster> heh I read that as "saitek" first.
15:54:06 <ais523> and the sartak-doy pair of repositories is a walled garden, and TAEB mainline
15:54:19 <ais523> and yes, TAEB not only uses Moose but is a rather useful testcase for it
15:54:21 <ehird> TAEB's development model sucks...
15:54:34 <ehird> they use a dvcs to distribute cathedrals
15:54:39 <ais523> ehird: they only autopull from each other, patches from outside have to be approved by Sartak or doy
15:54:39 <ehird> I'm not even sure that makes semantic sense
15:55:05 <ais523> then there's a sort of cloud around the outside which pull from each other sometimes and from Sartak/doy mostly
15:55:12 <ais523> that's sort of me, sorear, shabble at the moment
15:55:18 <AnMaster> distributed cathedrals. That sounds... insane? completely nuts?
15:55:25 <ais523> it isn't cathedral-style
15:55:37 <ais523> you can see the development process happen, and test patches as much as you like
15:55:42 <ais523> they just have to be reviewed before they get into mainline
15:55:51 <ais523> which is a sane way to run any project, really
16:08:54 <nooga> Moose vs Doodle => Doodle
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16:30:55 * nooga is using loop for loop condition
16:34:49 <AnMaster> nooga, do you mean like while(strlen(a[i++]) > 3)
16:34:58 <AnMaster> (strlen() would have a loop in itself)
16:35:04 <nooga> like while(while() {}) {}
16:35:26 <AnMaster> nooga, It isn't valid in C I think, so what language allows this?
16:35:54 <AnMaster> in C you could just do it with a function for the condition loop
16:36:17 <AnMaster> so allowing it inline like that is just syntactic sugar.
16:36:18 <nooga> so compiling sadol to C using C constructs sucks
16:36:40 <AnMaster> nooga, err it is easy, factor that out into a new function
16:36:41 <nooga> because i need to generate dummy function for that loop
16:37:09 <nooga> meny functions = many calls = slow
16:37:13 <AnMaster> static inline int sadol_func_autogen973(foo);
16:37:39 <nooga> but inline functions are almost never used inline
16:37:48 <AnMaster> nooga, if you are GCC specific you could use statement expressions
16:38:01 <AnMaster> nooga, yes they are at -O2 and higher mostly. Never at -O0
16:38:11 <nooga> statement expressions?
16:38:21 <ehird> ({ printf("yo\n"); 2+2 })
16:38:24 <ehird> evaluates to 4 and prints yo
16:38:32 <ehird> so while (({ shit }))
16:38:35 <nooga> (printf("yo\n"),2+2)
16:38:45 <ehird> that's not a ful statement
16:38:50 <ehird> ({ int foo = 2; foo })
16:39:00 <ehird> nooga: also, evaluation order thing
16:39:13 <nooga> this makes this compiler trivial
16:39:22 <nooga> rather, translator
16:40:03 <ehird> "OCz PCI-E 2.0 x4 SSD...250GB, 500GB, 1 TB. $1,300, $2500, $3,300 "
16:40:25 <ehird> That's just crazy. A 1TB SSD _already_?
16:40:35 <ehird> Who the hell will spend that much on a drive?!
16:41:27 <Deewiant> Also, those prices were actually pulled out of a proverbial ass IIRC
16:41:53 <ehird> But seriously, nobody would pay that much for a drive.
16:41:58 <ehird> That's how much an awesome computer costs!
16:42:07 <ehird> Really mega rad. Like Zaphod Beeblebrox rad.
16:42:10 <Deewiant> Yep: 'final pricing is still being kept under wraps, we're told that it'll be kept "competitive."'
16:42:23 <ehird> $3k is so competitive
16:42:35 <Deewiant> $3k still being pulled out of one reddit submitter's ass.
16:43:03 <Deewiant> I wonder if those drives will be any good; nothing about random speeds, as usual
16:43:16 <ehird> Deewiant: apparently they're basically vertexes
16:43:27 <Deewiant> Were the vertexes the good or the bad ones? :-P
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16:53:50 <AnMaster> nooga, statement expressions are GCC specific.
16:54:08 <ehird> yes. you said that
17:17:07 <nooga> it turned out that i'm japanese
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17:22:37 <nooga> you know, i took that quiz on facebook and suddenly...
17:24:25 <nooga> also, I'm Vincent Vega
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17:27:13 <Sgeo> I WILL KILL SECOND LIFE. IF NOT BY MY BOMBS DETONATING AND CRASHING THE MAINLAND SIMS FOREVER, THEN BY THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE OF LL FROM THE FEAR OF THE RESIDENTS
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17:27:48 <ehird> Sgeo: You're so emotional about such a shit game.
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17:28:19 <fizzie> (x++,x+2) is not undefined; , introduces a sequence point.
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17:29:11 <Sgeo> ehird, I was joking
17:29:14 <fizzie> Yes. Well, according to my imperfect knowledge, anyway. , and ?: and I guess the short-circuiting &&, || all add sequence points in there.
17:29:21 <Sgeo> Although I did sort of plan out how I would do it
17:29:36 <ehird> fizzie: && and || surely don't add a sequence point?
17:30:16 <Sgeo> But it wouldn't work, except maybe for the fear part.
17:30:33 <ais523> ehird: they do indeed add a sequence point, from left to right
17:30:36 <ais523> because they short-circuit
17:30:48 <ais523> i++&&i++; is legal C code
17:31:01 <ais523> although i=i++&&4; isn't
17:31:12 <ais523> just having a sequence point isn't enough, it also has to be in the right place
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17:36:11 <nooga> IOCCC comes to my mind
17:36:33 <ais523> I have some IOCCC code lying around designed to be maximally standards-breaking whilst still working
17:36:49 <ais523> it has all sorts of fun things like void main and longjmps that jump into functions rather than out of them
17:37:07 <nooga> "dumbass"[2] is legal?
17:37:08 <ais523> it's broken by pretty much any optimizer settings on any compiler, but it works without optimization
17:37:32 <ais523> one of the weirder features of C is that [] is commutative
17:37:40 <ais523> if you're golfing, you can sometimes save a pair of parens like that
17:38:14 <ehird> "dumbass"[2] being legal is surprising why?
17:38:17 <ehird> that works in every language ever.
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17:39:28 <nooga> char* beh() ... beh()[] ?
17:40:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm does Funge-98 say anything about how standard IO is encoded?
17:40:46 <nooga> struct blah* beh() ... beh()->bla
17:41:06 <ehird> yay, ldc will be fixed "later today"
17:41:18 <Sgeo> ehird, [0, 1, 2][0] doesn't work in LSL
17:41:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and are you allowed to reflect on invalid encoding of IO? Like if program tries to output malformed UTF-8.
17:41:29 <ehird> LSL does not count as a language so much as an abomination.
17:41:31 <Sgeo> Nor does llGetPos().x
17:42:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thing is, with Erlang R13B and later standard IO is defined to use Unicode. either unicode code points (for strings, which are cons-style lists of integers) or utf-8 (for binaries, which are basically byte arrays)
17:44:04 * nooga is wondering how to solve types in sadol to make it fast enough
17:47:31 <AnMaster> err, "Implementation unusualities" sounds like an odd section name for a README file....
17:48:04 <ehird> Implementation uselessities
17:48:09 <ehird> Or, "Implementation oddities"
17:48:22 <AnMaster> yeah "Implementation oddities" doesn't sound too bad.
17:48:22 <ehird> Or "Implementation curios", if you're a pretentious fuck.
17:49:09 <ais523> wow, C++0x has type inference
17:49:10 <pikhq> ais523, I suspect some of those things in your obfuscated C are just GNU C stuff.
17:49:24 <ais523> pikhq: nah, I want it to work on other compilers too
17:49:27 <pikhq> (I'm *pretty* sure that longjmp'ing into functions is legal in GNU C)
17:49:32 <pikhq> I said *some* things.
17:49:49 <ais523> if you think about it, it makes no sense
17:49:51 <pikhq> Eh, whatever. You're not trying to comply with any standards, so... ;)
17:50:05 <ais523> even more amusingly, gcc gives several warnings but they're all wrong
17:50:10 <ehird> ais523: c++0x has closures with lambda syntax
17:50:15 <ehird> and also optional GC iirc
17:50:19 <ehird> it's pretty bloated
17:50:24 <ehird> also, call it c++1x, that's what it will be
17:50:37 <ais523> someone on Slashdot said [](){}(); was legal C++0x, although not what it did
17:50:53 <ehird> [] prefix is the weird ass lambda syntax
17:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, language question: "erlang add some env variables..." "..."by itself" or "...on it's own"
17:51:43 <pikhq> I'd complain about how much C++10 adds, but, well, it's C++. It's already a mess.
17:51:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean
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17:51:58 <ais523> do you mean that there are environment variables added just by running Erlang that aren't there normally
17:51:58 <ehird> AnMaster: "adds some"
17:52:16 <ais523> I'd say "erlang adds some environment variables of its own", which means something slightly different but is clearer
17:52:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm trying to say that in efunge y won't show exactly the env variables you think it should, since erlang itself adds some vars as well as modifies PATH
17:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I just missed s there. I know it should be "adds".
17:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, so for what I meant, which alternative is the best
17:54:14 <ehird> Heh, AMD has released a new processor... which is competitive with Intel's *last* range of processors, and still as thermally challenged as their last.
17:54:34 <ais523> AnMaster: "erlang adds some environment variables of its own"
17:54:43 <ais523> or just "adds some environment variables"
17:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, "Erlang adds some environment variables of its own as well as modifies $PATH." ? Though that sounds slightly wrong.
17:55:15 <ehird> "Windows 7 Handwriting Recognition can handle equations and convert them to mathML" ← omg I've wanted this for years.
17:55:22 <AnMaster> probably better to split it in two sentences.
17:55:45 <ais523> what, it doesn't convert them to the weird OOXML version of equations?
17:55:56 <ehird> http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/e7/WindowsLiveWriter/InkInputandTablet_E2A5/clip_image014_thumb.jpg
17:55:59 <AnMaster> ais523, stop writing what I planed to say faster than me!
17:56:03 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaawesome
17:56:30 <ais523> the main problem with Windows nowadays is it's so awful as a dev environment
17:56:38 <ais523> for anything that isn't completely a Microsoft stack from top to bottom
17:57:22 <ais523> oh, and all the annoying notifications and dialogs
17:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I always found it faster to write it in the LaTeX notation for it than on paper with a pen. I suspect that is unusual though.
17:57:36 <ais523> and the freezes for no apparent reason, although that's much worse on a network than a home computer
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18:00:32 <AnMaster> what do you call the encoding of unicode using their code points. Not any UTF-*, just a list of code points.
18:01:00 <AnMaster> is it the same as UCS4 or not?
18:01:23 <AnMaster> um what about byte order then. hm
18:01:34 <ehird> unicode ends at 0x10FFFD
18:01:40 <ehird> so it's a bit less than 32 bits
18:02:27 <AnMaster> but this implies the program would output 4 bytes for each char it wanted to output?
18:02:47 <Deewiant> Just like UTF-16 outputs at least 2 bytes.
18:03:01 <ehird> Nobody uses utf-32.
18:03:07 <ehird> Because it's horribly unefficient.
18:03:09 <AnMaster> well that isn't what I meant then. I meant that each time , is used you should provide one unicode codepoint as the "parameter"
18:03:19 <Deewiant> It's handy for internal use, though.
18:03:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you're not saying anything meaningful
18:03:29 <Deewiant> It's much easier to work with a constant-width than a variable-width encoding.
18:03:43 <ehird> Deewiant: utf-8 is not that hard to deal with
18:03:56 <Deewiant> No, but you still have to deal with it.
18:03:57 <ehird> This is probably the easiest part of processing unicode anyway
18:03:59 <pikhq> ehird: It's harder than just indexing an array of ints.
18:04:03 <ehird> So it's a silly complaint
18:04:15 <Deewiant> Haskell, for instance, stores characters as essentially UTF-32.
18:04:40 <ais523> we have to move onto UTF-64!
18:04:50 <ais523> 64-bit is all the rage nowadays...
18:04:59 <lifthrasiir> ais523: so there will be surrogate-surrogate area?
18:05:02 <ais523> also, does anyone else here use uint_fast8_T for booleans?
18:05:02 <Deewiant> With 20-bit characters, it's a bit pointless. :-P
18:05:12 <ehird> ais523: but you can store two utf-32 characters in a utf-64 word!
18:05:27 <ehird> 64 bit actually uses less memory!!111
18:05:37 <ais523> there should be a uint_fast1_t...
18:05:40 <ehird> "my name is keiosha i was 7 but i am 8"
18:05:41 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ff2p/keiosha/
18:07:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what I'm trying to do is come up with a way to describe that to output a ⌁ you would need to push 8961 then use ,
18:07:29 <AnMaster> rather than output it as utf-8 bytes-.
18:08:12 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is translated to UTF-8 for output"?
18:09:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I leave translation of it to erlang's standard io driver. The API docs state you should provide it as a list of unicode codepoints or some utf-8 encoded binaries. The former is easier for befunge since you get one char at a time.
18:10:26 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is translated to a platform-specific encoding for output"
18:10:48 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is encoded in a platform-specific way before being output"
18:12:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also providing an invalid code point will reflect in efunge. Like one out of range for unicode.
18:13:01 <ais523> what about one in the surrogate range/
18:13:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well since I reflect when I catch a badarg exception in the output code and erlang throws one of those for that range too it will reflect for that as well.
18:13:54 <AnMaster> assuming I remember correctly which one is that range
18:14:37 <AnMaster> yes that was the one I was thinking of.
18:14:46 <AnMaster> and yes it throws an exception
18:15:11 <AnMaster> > catch io:put_chars([16#d800]).
18:15:12 <AnMaster> {'EXIT',{badarg,[{io,put_chars,[<0.25.0>,unicode,[55296]]},
18:15:20 <ehird> http://www.intel.com/index.htm?iid=hdr+logo ← hahaha wow look at that guy
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18:15:22 <AnMaster> %% some lines with backtrace skipped
18:15:29 <ehird> it's an inverted Intel ninja!
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18:16:19 <ehird> <!-- a (JavaScript) utility function has been included to facilitate the conversion -->
18:16:22 <ehird> <!-- once server-side generation is enabled, however, the links should instead point _back_ to this page -->
18:16:25 <ehird> <!-- but with the selected language loaded -->
18:16:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yes cleanrooms tends to invert ninjas
18:16:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah it's to prevent them being too sneaky
18:16:42 <ehird> and stealing the processors
18:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, plus it is hard to make sure there is no dust on the black clothes. It is supposed to be a *clean* room after all.
18:17:50 <ehird> nooga: can you just go away until you do anything other than vague, one-word, aborted attempts at pseudo-humour
18:18:16 * AnMaster wonders what nooga meant though.
18:18:23 <ehird> AnMaster: "an hero" is a 4chan meme.
18:18:40 <ehird> it means someone who killed themselves.
18:19:03 <ehird> Boring 4chan drama background that nobody gives a shit about: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Mitchell_Henderson
18:19:17 <nooga> you see, my brain continues to melt, especially when i'm browsing /b/ using my new, shiny, macbook
18:19:33 <AnMaster> "a unicode codepoint" or "an unicode codepoint"
18:19:57 <ehird> nooga: i thought you agreed to go away
18:20:39 <AnMaster> doesn't "unicode" start with a vowel sound? The fact that "u" is vowel in Swedish doesn't help when I'm trying to think about this...
18:20:53 <ehird> u is a vowel in english too.
18:20:57 <Deewiant> No, it doesn't start with a vowel sound.
18:21:18 <Deewiant> Just like it's "a yew" and not "an yew"
18:21:20 <ehird> and y is a consonant
18:21:30 <ehird> Deewiant: JEW BUDDIES *hi5*
18:21:39 <ehird> (that was seriously unintentional I swear)
18:22:03 <nooga> a unicode sounds weird
18:23:03 <AnMaster> ehird, y is a vowel in Swedish too
18:23:16 <ehird> swedish is all vowels
18:23:18 <AnMaster> rather different sound (as you might expect)
18:24:33 <ehird> "vi(1) is for sluts?"
18:24:52 <nooga> AnMaster: tell him
18:25:16 <fizzie> sv:vi is en:we. It sounds rather the same.
18:25:40 <fizzie> Well, maybe "same" is not quite the word here.
18:27:18 <fizzie> Stop, end, quit, something like that.
18:28:20 <fizzie> Or "to close", I guess, too. Funny how they've overloaded it.
18:28:44 <ehird> moar like intercal
18:28:46 <ehird> operand overloading
18:28:49 <ehird> isn't that right ais523?
18:28:52 <fizzie> Er, I guess to close would be "sluter" in that verb-form.
18:28:54 <ehird> it's more like simultaneous operand overloading
18:29:03 <fizzie> But the base form is "sluta" for both still.
18:29:11 <ehird> AnMaster: we've been calling vi users sluts.
18:29:12 <ais523> I haven't been paying attention...
18:29:16 <AnMaster> nooga, vi slutar == we finishes/ends.
18:29:49 <ais523> "we finishes" is gramatically incorrect in English; was the original phrase gramatically incorrect too?
18:30:25 <AnMaster> nooga, that must me Norwegian or Danish
18:31:11 <nooga> min bror tallar svenska ;d
18:31:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Or "to close", I guess, too. Funny how they've overloaded it. <-- English "go" is very overloaded too
18:31:35 <AnMaster> it is all of åka, gå, resa, cyckla + a lot more
18:32:17 <fizzie> Come to think of it, why *does* English do the verb differently in "I/you/we/they foo" and "he/she foos"? It's not like they'd have a habit of inflecting words.
18:32:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, backward compatibility.
18:32:36 <ais523> what other languages do for everything, English generally does in exactly one case
18:32:39 <ais523> just to confuse people
18:32:58 <ais523> just like "I was" -> "I were" is one of the few places in English where a word is different in the subjunctive
18:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, Swedish doesn't do *that* one though. Not for verbs.
18:33:21 <ais523> French, Latin, and German all do
18:33:24 <AnMaster> not even the "s" stuff in third person.
18:33:26 <ais523> and that's most of the influences on English
18:33:36 <AnMaster> adjectives is of course a different matter.
18:33:41 <fizzie> But Finnish is not really a large influence on English, I guess.
18:33:54 <AnMaster> en röd bil, ett rött hus (a red car, a red house)
18:34:11 <nooga> isn't tryck = press?
18:34:22 <nooga> i mean press (a button)
18:34:52 <AnMaster> nooga, well yes that is one of the meanings. you also have "tryckeri" == "a place that prints books, papers or whatever"
18:35:24 <AnMaster> nooga, also it has more overloaded meanings.
18:35:44 <AnMaster> tryck can be a verb, noun or adjective depending on context. Meaning different things.
18:36:10 <nooga> press = newspapers / to press / a machine / ...
18:36:12 <AnMaster> and I don't know how to translate the adjective one.
18:37:00 <nooga> how about..... vanlig vs ovanlig
18:37:11 <AnMaster> nooga, we also have "press", not exactly like English press, also with many meanings.
18:37:30 <AnMaster> and where did you get these phrases from?
18:37:40 <fizzie> You really should've generalized the o-prefix so that "oovanlig" would be again the same as "vanlig", and that you could apply it to exactly everything.
18:37:45 <nooga> i remember from sweden
18:37:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think I heard that as a joke
18:38:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, clearly same as ununcommon
18:38:39 <nooga> can I flycka <-> oflycka? ;d
18:38:51 <fizzie> Our negation prefix in that case is "epä"; it's unwieldly long. Ununcommon would be "epäepätavallinen".
18:39:07 <nooga> oh, i though that means a girl
18:39:38 <AnMaster> nooga, so you would use "ungirl" in English?
18:39:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:40:36 <fizzie> Also unboy; never the non-prefixed words. Complexity is always a good thing.
18:40:47 <AnMaster> the prefix is only generally usable for adjectives in Swedish, some verbs too but not most verbs. You can use "un" on more verbs in English than in Swedish.
18:41:00 <ehird> "Ungirl yourself", meaning "You (a male-to-female transsexual), have another sex change back to male."
18:41:04 <ehird> The endless are possibilities!
18:41:19 <nooga> i just thought maybe since vanlig = animal and ovanling = monster? then oflicka would mean monster too ;d
18:41:38 <AnMaster> since when is "vanlig" == animal
18:42:07 <AnMaster> vanlig == common, ovanlig == uncommon
18:42:21 <nooga> things get clearer
18:42:43 <AnMaster> <nooga> how about..... vanlig vs ovanlig <AnMaster> nooga, "common vs uncommon"?
18:43:00 <nooga> didn't pay attention
18:43:11 <nooga> i was jerking off to my macbook
18:43:46 <fizzie> Well, if it's a white macbook, maybe it won't show so much.
18:43:49 -!- jix has joined.
18:44:06 <ehird> 18:43 nooga: i was jerking off to my macbook
18:44:06 <ehird> 18:43 AnMaster: that sounds dirty
18:44:19 <ehird> "I'm wanna have sex with you. If you know what I mean."
18:45:32 <ehird> ais523: Cisco have released a server proxy hardware thing that just filters out spam and viruses
18:46:05 <ais523> that's what the "nothing else" would imply if taken literally
18:46:53 <ais523> sorry, writing technical Nomic judgements about scams atm, so I'm rather literal-minded
18:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't see any other interpretation than that one.
18:47:51 <ais523> AnMaster: that the proxy isn't designed to do anything other than spam or viruses, so it can't load-balance or cache, for instance
18:47:56 <AnMaster> the product has no other functions?
18:48:47 <ehird> that's what I meant
18:48:58 <ehird> ridiculous having a whole server just to do that
18:49:30 <AnMaster> ridiculous that you can't install both features on the same hardware server. But I guess they make more money that way...
18:51:41 <AnMaster> "Zero Width Non Breaking Space" .... huh (yes I know it is used for BOM in UTF-16 and such... but why not call it "Byte Order Mark" instead of a zero-width space...)
18:51:41 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:54:12 <ehird> because it's a zero width non breaking space too?
18:54:24 <ehird> the BOM is purely incidental
18:55:07 <ais523> actually, they moved zero width nbsp to a different codepoint
18:55:13 <ais523> so that the old one could be used purely as a BOM
18:55:16 <ais523> IIRC, that is, I might be wrong
18:56:53 <AnMaster> what use is a zero width nbsp (apart from BOM)...
18:57:06 <AnMaster> I mean it does absolutely nothing as far as I can tell.
18:57:40 <AnMaster> Zero width breaking space I could see an use for, same for non-zero width non-breaking space.
18:57:58 <ehird> <AnMaster> I am ignorant of non-Latin languages.
18:58:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so how is zero width nbsp used. As far as I can tell it has absolutely no effect on output, in any script.
18:58:41 <ehird> IIRC, in Arabic it breaks the word up
18:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it prevents two consecutive letters forming a ligature
18:58:50 <ehird> if you have two words that should not be joined
18:58:55 <ehird> yeah, what ais523 said
18:58:58 <ais523> although they have zwj and zwnj specifically for that nowadays too
18:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, but aren't lugatures separate code points...
19:01:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm pretty sure some are at least: fi fl
19:01:54 <ais523> but in some scripts, entire words are normally written joined-up
19:02:04 <ais523> and you don't have a ligature for every word in the language
19:02:30 <AnMaster> but you said "zwj and zwnj" were used for that
19:02:55 <AnMaster> so what use is zwnbs nowdays then
19:03:23 <ais523> traditionally NUL was used for that, but it's not the most obvious character for the purpose and that's kind-of hacky
19:03:34 <ais523> AnMaster: if your connection to a terminal's faster than it can physically print out text
19:03:44 <ais523> sometimes you have to slow down the connection by sending padding
19:04:06 <ehird> he said today, not in the 70s
19:04:09 <AnMaster> not relevant with modern technology though
19:04:19 <ais523> so? Unicode deals with everything
19:04:28 <ais523> Cunieform isn't modern technology either, it deals with that
19:04:31 <ehird> 19:04 Blah12309: ×amsg×
19:04:34 <ehird> over and over again
19:04:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think there is one
19:04:46 <ehird> think he's trying to crash something
19:04:53 <ais523> there /is/ a UTF-5, isn't there, but it isn't Baudot-based
19:04:56 -!- olsner has joined.
19:05:03 <ais523> well, a 5-bit Unicode encoding, anyway, for URLs
19:05:05 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't know of that one
19:05:31 <ais523> yes, that's a common nickname for it
19:05:37 <ais523> UTF-9 was an April Fool's RFC
19:05:48 <ais523> but it's a sane enough format, just with few uses nowadays
19:05:56 <AnMaster> ais523, is punycode the thing with xn-- or whatever
19:07:41 <ehird> what're the open source Radeon linux drivers called?
19:07:47 <ehird> and do they have accel yet
19:08:03 <ais523> I don't know, and I don't know
19:08:07 <Deewiant> There's radeonhd and the other one
19:08:16 <ehird> Deewiant: apt-get install the other one
19:08:17 <ais523> Ubuntu's pretty good at finding drivers automatically IME
19:08:18 <Deewiant> radeonhd doesn't have accel, the other one does, I think
19:08:23 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it finds proprietary ones.
19:08:35 <ehird> It'd be nice to have a fully-accellerated open source driver.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> But the other one only supports older cards.
19:08:38 <ais523> it finds open-source ones if it can, and gives you the option to use proprietary instead
19:08:45 <ehird> Deewiant: so, no 4850? :<
19:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: catalyst are ATI ones, closed source i think
19:09:09 <Deewiant> I've been doing just fine without accel for almost half a year now. :-p
19:09:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I want compiz
19:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I think they renamed or something at one point
19:09:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Sure I can, with fglrx.
19:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Not yet. I'm figuring out how much of my soul needs to be sold first.
19:09:58 <Deewiant> Does fglrx support compositing these days?
19:10:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Well. When I tried Kubuntu on this machine, which is a Radeon, I got fancy effects.
19:10:37 <ehird> This gfx card is -- lessee -
19:11:12 <Deewiant> ehird: That might be one which the other one supports.
19:11:23 <ehird> Catalyst 9.32009-03-27improved OpenGL composite support, last release to support pre X2xxx (pre DirectX10) Cards
19:11:45 <AnMaster> why would anyone want compiz, I mean it is the worst type of eye candy. All of what I have seen of it falls in the same category as the "make minimizing windows in OS X look like they are sucked into the dock by a vacuum cleaner"-effect (possible to turn that off luckily).
19:11:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I just want window shadows.
19:11:59 <AnMaster> or maybe all those screen shots are not representative of it.
19:12:04 <ehird> They help usability IME.
19:12:04 <ais523> AnMaster: for Expo, that's pretty helpful
19:12:14 <ehird> They help pick out windows and differenciating between them
19:12:18 <ais523> Compiz doesn't just have eyecandy, but also window-manager UI improvements
19:12:18 <ehird> Also: offloads work onto the GPU
19:12:23 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure you can get that anyway. I have a 1 px blakc shadow on this window I think
19:12:30 <ehird> That's not a shadow.
19:12:37 <ehird> That's a Windows 3.11 "Shadow"
19:12:42 <ais523> left alt, left shift, up shows all the windows so you can pick between them; Mac OS X had an equivalent idea first
19:12:59 <ehird> Expose tends to get less useful the more clutter you have IME
19:13:01 <ais523> but the Compiz implementation is better for me because works well using nothing but the keyboard
19:13:02 <ehird> I haven't used it for a year or so
19:13:08 <ehird> ais523: so does OS X's
19:13:09 <AnMaster> ais523, err I have seen the same thing without compiz actually
19:13:12 <ais523> ehird: I generally don't have all that much clutter
19:13:14 <ehird> F9, then left and right and up and down
19:13:20 <AnMaster> some app for KDE 3.x that didn't use compiz
19:13:27 <ais523> ehird: yes, F9's miles from the arrow keys
19:13:33 <ehird> Catalyst 8.52008-05-21Catalyst A.I., improved 2D performance, DKMS support in installer, Linux 2.6.25 support.
19:13:38 <ais523> alt-shift-up followed by arrows followed by letting go of alt-shift is so much faster
19:13:38 <ehird> Nowadays video drivers need AI built in.
19:13:52 <ehird> ais523: it's a good thing you can configure the hotkey
19:14:03 <ehird> admittedly, only to an F-key, or a left/right modifier key
19:14:09 <ehird> and the latter two are ridiculous to override
19:14:13 <ais523> is the return at the end customizable too?
19:14:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> F9, then left and right and up and down <-- err I'm quite sure it doesn't need that on os x either?
19:14:30 <ehird> ais523: use the hotkey.
19:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to use expose only on the keyboard.
19:14:42 <ehird> Please PLEASE read context!
19:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I'm quite sure it is on OS X too. I used it on a ibook with 10.4 not long ago. using just one of the f-keys (forgot which)
19:15:28 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
19:15:31 <ehird> I WAS NOT FUCKING DISPUTING THAT
19:15:41 <ehird> I WAS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO NAVIGATE IT WITH JUST THE KEYBOARD
19:15:41 <AnMaster> ok, what were the arrow keys for then
19:15:55 <ehird> "As of 2008-12, many issues still remain: Video playback occasionally has quality and stability problems, especially in Xine[7]. 2D benchmarks show that ATI cards using these drivers are two orders of magnitude slower than the competing NVIDIA cards in basic tasks such as text rendering[8], making even graphic consoles feel sluggish."
19:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what you get for selecting ATI...
19:16:38 <ehird> AnMaster: having to use another driver?
19:16:42 <ehird> HOW CAN I POSSIBLY COPE.
19:16:50 <AnMaster> does the other drive work well nowdays?
19:17:15 <ehird> one of the open source ones
19:17:31 <AnMaster> oh right you didn't find the name of it.
19:18:15 <ehird> The radeonhd driver, or xf86-video-radeonhd, is an X.org video driver for R500 and newer ATI graphics devices. It is being developed by the X11 community, currently centered around Novell and AMD, with the free documentation provided by AMD.
19:18:16 <ehird> The driver supports full modesetting (read: any mode is usable, not only those provided by the BIOS), and is compatible to RandR 1.3. Future work is happening especially on more advanced features like 2D, 3D, and video acceleration.
19:18:20 <ehird> more advanced features.
19:18:24 <ehird> like accelleration!
19:18:42 <Deewiant> Well, it isn't exactly basic either
19:18:54 <ehird> Deewiant: xf86-video-ati's first google result is a cgit repository viewer
19:19:12 <AnMaster> Available versions: 6.6.3 6.8.0-r1 6.12.1-r1 ~6.12.2 {debug dri}
19:19:12 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/
19:19:22 <ehird> "17 Apr 2009: AMD releases initial code branches for 3D support on R6xx/R7xx (see more below)"
19:19:35 <ehird> Does this mean that it's just got 3d support? :P
19:19:44 <Deewiant> Rather that the branches became public.
19:19:47 <ehird> R600/R700 class chips (Radeon HD 2300 – Radeon HD 4890):
19:19:47 <ehird> 2D: accelerated (EXA), a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:19:48 <ehird> XVideo: accelerated and tear free, a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:19:50 <ehird> 3D: experimental, development in two places simultaneously; mesa r6xx-r7xx-support, r6xx-rewrite, both need drm r6xx-r7xx-3d | instructions for usage at radeonhd:experimental_3D
19:19:56 <ehird> new feature and experimental
19:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, check which model you have too
19:20:16 <ehird> (best one you can get fanless)
19:20:37 <AnMaster> ehird, is that better or worse than a geforce 7600
19:20:48 <ehird> AnMaster: 4850 is the third most powerful single gfx card that ati does
19:20:53 <ehird> 4850, 4870, 4890 (just released)
19:21:12 <ehird> so i'd probably guess better
19:21:24 <ehird> GeForce 7600 cards go head to head
19:21:24 <ehird> A multitude of mid-range options
19:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I strongly suspect you *will* have issues with getting that card to work well.
19:21:25 <ehird> by Geoff Gasior — 12:00 AM on June 9, 2006
19:21:31 <ehird> geforce 7600 was mid-range in 2006
19:21:41 <ehird> so... 4850 is better**a lot
19:21:59 <AnMaster> ehird, can it execute a infinite loop in less than 6 seconds!?
19:22:11 <ehird> unfortunately it does not come with a Cray
19:22:16 <ehird> i hear the 4890X2 will
19:22:36 <AnMaster> actually where is that "meme" from...
19:22:54 <ehird> A standard joke has been made about each generation's exemplar
19:22:55 <ehird> of the ultra-fast machine: "The Cray-3 is so fast it can
19:22:56 <ehird> execute an infinite loop in under 2 seconds!"
19:23:01 <ehird> from the 1996 jargon file, woe as I am to quote Raymond
19:23:08 <ehird> although that paragraph probably predates him
19:23:12 <ehird> raymond wasn't around for any of that shit :)
19:25:05 <ehird> 19:21 AnMaster: ehird, I strongly suspect you *will* have issues with getting that card to work well.
19:25:14 <ehird> i imagine i'll get it to do compiz fine, with some hiccups
19:25:20 <ehird> after all, i'm not buying this machine tomorrow
19:25:27 <ehird> and open source is light speed development, right? ;)
19:25:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: my condolences
19:25:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just don't claim it is Linux's fault if it doesn't work.
19:26:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it's linux's [drivers] faul
19:26:42 <ehird> "For R6xx and above there is also an ATIProprietaryDriver available, which is worse in many aspects but has better 3D performance and features. The proprietary driver included support for R3xx-R5xx GPUs until the March 2009 release. "
19:26:55 <ehird> the shitty shitty fglrx beats the experimental open source one
19:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, rather it is the fault of the manufacture. If I make some piece of hardware, I wouldn't expect anyone else to write the needed drivers for talking to it for me.
19:27:04 <ehird> I don't even wanna consider how bad the opensource one must be!
19:27:18 <ehird> jooin us nowww and share the hardwaaaaaaaaaaare
19:27:27 <ehird> YOU'LL BE FREEEEE SILICONE YOU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEEE
19:27:53 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THE FREE SOFTWARE SONG?!
19:27:59 <ehird> IT IS RMS'S WORST MASTERPIECE!
19:28:08 <ehird> http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.au
19:28:11 <ais523> interesting problem: can anyone here think of a decent way to bruteforce Rainbow Adjacencies in a reasonable length of time?
19:28:52 <ehird> AnMaster: don't, they might break.
19:29:29 <AnMaster> horrible sound quality in the recording....
19:29:38 <ehird> that's not the most horrible thing about it
19:29:57 <ehird> no, he just sings really badly
19:30:26 <ehird> (but that doesn't excuse its horribility, ofc)
19:30:31 <ehird> (just saying that's why it sounds like talking)
19:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I have heard songs in 2/4 3/4 and so on that was clearly singing.
19:31:29 <ehird> although it's more like shit/shit
19:31:38 <AnMaster> hm, I'm unable to detect any rythm at all
19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the place I'm getting it from offers ubuntu linux as an OS option; it would be rather odd if they sold a totally ubuntu incompatible gfx card with that.
19:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, are you going to use ubuntu on it
19:33:44 <AnMaster> and if so, are you going to select it to be pre-installed
19:33:57 <ehird> because they charge $30 for it, the buggers
19:34:09 <ehird> and I need to do the freaky ssd LVM alignment stuff myself
19:34:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes me suspect it needs a lot of fiddling
19:34:24 <ehird> it's the same on all their pcs, AnMaster
19:34:31 <ehird> it makes me suspect they're profitable buggers. :)
19:34:52 <ehird> AnMaster: go on then, tell us the model, I know you can't wait to
19:35:36 <AnMaster> actually I think it is "BeyerDynamics"
19:35:40 <ehird> that's not particularly expensive
19:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not very cheap either. Plus currently the exchange rate for SEK sucks.
19:36:58 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have a soundcard?
19:37:05 <ehird> i'm trying to think of one reason to have a separate soundcard
19:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean I haven't mentioned it's hardware midi <exaggeration times> before?
19:37:45 <AnMaster> and yes I have an old SB Live! 5.1 PCI card.
19:37:51 <ehird> Soundblaster live.
19:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what about it? It works well.
19:38:06 <Deewiant> MIDI eats up CPU unless your sound card can do it
19:38:22 <Deewiant> ehird: It's better than anything that comes on a motherboard, though.
19:38:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err cpu isn't as much of an issue really.
19:38:42 <ehird> Apparently SoundBlaster drivers are shit on linux.
19:39:09 <Deewiant> 01:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc HD48x0 audio
19:39:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, nice.
19:39:22 <ehird> So I can use my 4850 as a sound card?
19:39:28 <AnMaster> I hate other activity causing MIDI to suddenly pause.
19:39:32 <Deewiant> I have no idea if there's any point in it.
19:39:35 <ehird> Deewiant: That sounds nice.
19:39:47 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, you said anything's better than mobo soundcards :P
19:39:59 <Deewiant> No, I said the SBLive! was. :-P
19:40:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rafb.net/p/FC6hs393.html
19:40:14 <Deewiant> Although I think there are some mobos with "good" sound cards on them.
19:40:30 <ehird> ADI® AD2000B 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
19:40:30 <Deewiant> I.e. codecs in the hardware and such.
19:40:31 <ehird> Support Jack-Detection, Multi-Streaming, and Front Panel Jack-Retasking
19:40:33 <ehird> Coaxial / Optical S/PDIF out ports at back I/O
19:40:42 <ehird> It says codec, at least.
19:40:57 <ehird> 00:0f.1 IDE interface: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C586A/B/VT82C686/A/B/VT823x/A/C PIPC Bus Master IDE (rev 06)
19:41:16 <Deewiant> 03:00.0 IDE interface: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88SE6121 SATA II Controller (rev b1)
19:41:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I have both PATA and SATA on this.
19:41:32 <ehird> Wooooow. PATA. Memories.
19:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a waste to throw away the old pata disk, it can be useful still.
19:42:13 <ehird> Apparently the open source driver's rating for Compiz on the 4850
19:42:19 <ehird> 's R700 chipset is "PLATINUM".
19:42:25 <ehird> Which is meant to be quite good.
19:42:34 -!- nooga has joined.
19:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it may need fiddling though.
19:42:42 <ehird> There's a "GARBAGE" rating on one of them.
19:43:08 <Deewiant> I think this is my first computer with nothing in PATA except the floppy drive.
19:43:11 <ehird> Deewiant: wut driver ur uzing
19:43:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, whatever that thing is that they use which is like an ATA cable but smaller.
19:44:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, It isn't ATA at at all iirc.
19:44:36 <AnMaster> I don't remember the name though
19:44:50 <ehird> I guess xf86-video-ati or fglrx are my best bets.
19:45:05 <Deewiant> I doubt -ati will work with such a new card
19:45:12 <ehird> R600/R700 class chips (Radeon HD 2300 – Radeon HD 4890):
19:45:12 <ehird> 2D: accelerated (EXA), a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:45:14 <ehird> XVideo: accelerated and tear free, a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:45:15 <ehird> 3D: experimental, development in two places simultaneously; mesa r6xx-r7xx-support, r6xx-rewrite, both need drm r6xx-r7xx-3d | instructions for usage at radeonhd:experimental_3D
19:45:18 <ehird> I beg to differ, sir.
19:45:30 <ehird> I experimentally beg to differ!
19:45:43 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.x.org/wiki/radeon
19:45:43 <Deewiant> Given the pointer to radeonhd at the end I thought it was radeonhd
19:46:13 <ehird> "The driver is relatively mature and does perform quite well for professional OpenGL applications. Some gaming applications do work reasonably nice, some others might still expose some minor or major problems. 2D performance is below of what the open source DRI drivers do provide, but is still acceptable fast for everyday work. The set of drivers still is bound to XFree86 4.0.0 and X.Org 6.7.0, but might get updated to be compatible with the latest X.Org
19:46:15 <ehird> release. Further updates and inclusion of GLSL are expected for one of the very next releases."
19:46:27 <ehird> So fglrx is better at 2D, radeon is better at 3D, and all are shit-slow at everything.
19:46:45 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the sound in these headphones is crystal clear, oh and they are roubust. My old headphones (very good sound quality) broke some days ago. And constructed so you couldn't repair them basically. These ones are "all user serviceable parts" basically.
19:46:45 <ehird> It's *almost* enough to make me go nvidia.
19:46:57 <Deewiant> Just try all three and pick one.
19:47:15 <Deewiant> ehird: "For R6xx and above there is also an ATIProprietaryDriver available, which is worse in many aspects but has better 3D performance and features."
19:47:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Great, the wiki is contradictory.
19:47:39 <nooga> i suppose i don't think so
19:47:40 <AnMaster> all you need is a common screwdriver (flat head) + the part number to order a spare.
19:48:05 <ehird> Heh, the best fanless card the endpcnoise guys offer is the Asus EN9600GT; which appears to be a low-end thingy.
19:48:14 <ehird> Fanless nvidia, that is
19:48:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Where do you get that radeon is better than fglrx at 3D
19:48:55 <ehird> Deewiant: They said fglrx is better at 2D than radeon, I assumed the "2D" was intentional
19:49:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have mentioned my SB Live before, why did you go all "wow old" over it.
19:49:15 <Deewiant> You read too much into these things :-P
19:49:18 <ehird> But... "As of 2008-12, many issues still remain: Video playback occasionally has quality and stability problems, especially in Xine[7]. 2D benchmarks show that ATI cards using these drivers are two orders of magnitude slower than the competing NVIDIA cards in basic tasks such as text rendering[8], making even graphic consoles feel sluggish."
19:49:25 <ehird> It doesn't really inspire confidence.
19:49:40 <ehird> That's from 2007-02
19:49:55 <ehird> "HD 2xxx (R600) and new driver codebase with big performance improvements.[1] "
19:49:58 <AnMaster> ehird, "As of 2008-12" == "<ehird> That's from 2007-02"
19:50:04 <ehird> the benchmark linked
19:50:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:50:17 <ehird> But as I said: "HD 2xxx (R600) and new driver codebase with big performance improvements.[1]"
19:50:33 <ehird> http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7#c24
19:50:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you may need to use svn/cvs/whatever versions of the drivers then
19:50:49 <ehird> It was improved 2007-09.
19:50:53 <ehird> The last release was THIS MONTH.
19:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: And it's closed source.
19:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, didn't you say before it got 3D 17 April or something
19:51:12 <ehird> I don't think you can get "svn" versions of closed source drivers.
19:51:23 <AnMaster> or are you talking about different drivers
19:51:26 <ehird> and no, it got *improved* OpenGL composite support 2009-03-27
19:51:33 <ehird> it got opengl 3 support on 2009-01-29
19:51:43 <ehird> and I'm assuming it supported 3d a lot before all that
19:51:47 <ehird> "Catalyst A.I., improved 2D performance, DKMS support in installer, Linux 2.6.25 support. "
19:51:55 <ehird> So I guess the 2D/3D performance is fine these days
19:52:01 <ehird> Maybe the AI improved it for them
19:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, you do a lot of 3D I guess?
19:52:21 <ehird> They have x86_64 versions too, yay
19:52:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Not neccessarily; but why would I get a 4850 and then use it as a slow 2D card? :-P
19:52:46 <ehird> That would be remarkably wasteful.
19:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but it would be rather impractical to not be able to do any 2D tasks due to them being wasteful
19:53:18 <AnMaster> you would need to write a 3D irc client for example
19:53:38 * ehird evaporates a couch
19:53:44 <ehird> On screen: A COUCH APPEARS AND EVAPORATES
19:53:49 <ehird> ais523: "Second IRC"
19:54:24 <ehird> Hmm, Ubuntu's fglrx version is A LITTLE BEHIND
19:54:28 <Deewiant> ehird: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature comparing the last two columns, it seems the choice is fairly arbitrary :-P
19:54:48 <Deewiant> It's Debian, what do you expect?
19:54:50 <ehird> 8.6 was released 2008-06
19:54:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Ubuntu is generally more cutting edge.
19:55:49 <ehird> YAY, The fglrx driver thing can make .debs
19:55:55 <ehird> So that's very all okay then
19:59:58 <AnMaster> anyway other 3D apps you would need:
20:01:23 <ehird> Less pronouncable.
20:01:38 <AnMaster> yes I guess the devs would consider that a drawback with that name
20:01:56 <ehird> More like awesomeback
20:01:59 <AnMaster> zshgl sounds better than glzsh I think...
20:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no they aren't esoteric, they are interested in serious people using their products. A name that is easy to remember is a good thing then.
20:02:43 <AnMaster> hm what other apps would you use.
20:02:53 <ehird> zsh is not very serious.
20:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you plan to use for your typographyfilia
20:03:04 <ehird> The elements float around the page.
20:03:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Typophilia.
20:03:25 <ehird> Umm, I don't think X's very typographical.
20:03:42 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't taht eb soneone ttat worte liek thiis
20:03:56 <AnMaster> ehird, typo as in spelling error
20:04:41 <AnMaster> anyway that is why Typophilia isn't a good name, too easy to misunderstand.
20:04:56 <ehird> Meaningless ,but memorable
20:05:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, there is always TeX. Now you need a 3D variant of it.
20:06:11 <ais523> ehird: it's not meaningless, it means a love of typos
20:06:17 <nooga> God I hate dutch accent in english
20:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well what would you use for typography stuff then.
20:06:43 <ehird> Typographing isn't an activity in itself...
20:07:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, stuff like micro-typography and what not.
20:07:19 <ehird> I'm not obsessed down to the micro level.
20:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, optically straight margins
20:07:44 <ehird> I'd use xetex if I wanted to write a book
20:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you need to develop 3D typography now
20:08:20 <AnMaster> and then I don't mean that "wordart" thing in Office 97
20:08:33 <ehird> AnMaster: remember the windows gltext screensaver?
20:08:45 <ehird> it was 3d text (just 2d text with some depth), that batted around the screen
20:08:51 <ehird> clearly, we must make 3d books on the same principle
20:08:59 <ehird> House of Leaves will never be the same again
20:09:00 <AnMaster> ah yes, it displayed the current time didn't it
20:09:05 <ehird> you could set what it displayed
20:09:08 <ehird> current time or constant string
20:09:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Leaves
20:09:32 <ehird> AnMaster: tl;dr: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/HouseOfLeavesPage134.gif
20:10:09 <nooga> 3d typography should glue graphens into little cubes casted on the paper plane
20:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: -post-post-post-post-pre-modern
20:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it got so far the word "modern" is no longer in it.
20:11:28 <ehird> I want to read finnegan's wake sometime
20:11:28 <Deewiant> Footnotes containing footnotes for the win
20:11:31 <AnMaster> it is just post-post. As in "after after"
20:11:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually that I have seen in plain post-modern
20:12:04 <nooga> apple waapl gwwap uggwa kuugw ikkug
20:12:07 <ehird> Deewiant: One of the early discworld novels has a page that's 3 or 4 lines of actual text, then a few gigantic footnotes
20:12:23 <ehird> Deewiant: *Wake too.
20:12:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, I was more about the apostrophe.
20:12:42 <ehird> You accidentally the more.
20:12:46 <ehird> About the apostraphe.
20:12:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and Disworld books have nested footnotes sometime
20:12:59 <ehird> http://www.trentu.ca/faculty/jjoyce/fw-3.htm
20:13:05 <ehird> Finnegans Wake, online.
20:13:12 <Deewiant> I imagine they would, Pratchett writes that way
20:13:12 <ehird> (Revolutionary, indeed.)
20:13:56 <nooga> once i've met Pratchett
20:13:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird Consider the books by Jasper Fforde. Where sometimes the main *story* takes place in the foot notes. Oh and they use the footnotes as a phone system.
20:14:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I want a book that's just footnotes
20:14:19 <Deewiant> Gutenberg has Ulysses, but not Finnegans Wake
20:14:20 <ehird> Something happened.[1][2]
20:14:24 <ehird> [1]It happened at 3am.[3]
20:14:30 <ehird> [2]It was[4] interesting.
20:14:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Something happened.[1][2][citation needed]
20:14:38 <ehird> [3]Rather early, you[7] might say[3].
20:14:43 <ehird> [4]For some values of "was".
20:14:46 <ehird> So on, for the whole book
20:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, the last foot note should end with [citation needed]. Or maybe loop back to the first one.
20:17:00 <ehird> [1013]Which was the most interesting thing about the thing that happened[1][2].
20:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Strange_&_Mr_Norrell had some huge foot notes spanning 4 or 5 pages iirc.
20:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that yes.
20:18:27 <AnMaster> ehird, or maybe more like "[1013]Blah blah (all loose ends have been neatly handled in the story by this point). Then suddenly... something happened[1]."
20:18:40 <AnMaster> make sure it is the same time of day of course
20:18:56 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe one of the footnotes in the middle should idly reference that time was proved to be circular
20:19:13 <AnMaster> I was considering "circular time" yes.
20:19:23 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
20:31:55 * ehird orders some shiny Ubuntu CDs
20:32:13 <ehird> http://shop.canonical.com/images/904_3D_ubuntu_wallet_disc.jpg ← prettiest cd packaging ever
20:32:31 <Slereah> ehird : It looks like a cheap wallpaper
20:33:17 <ais523> atm I don't even have a desktop background image
20:33:21 <ais523> I'm just using gratuated colour
20:33:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm using a single uniform colour
20:33:50 <ehird> ais523: what cols?
20:33:56 <AnMaster> used the same for, uh... 4 years I think
20:33:57 <ais523> dark reddish purple and dark bluish purple
20:34:24 <Deewiant> Mine is all-black, I never see it anyway
20:34:34 <ehird> You people and your darkness.
20:34:36 <ais523> Deewiant: you pirated Vista?
20:34:36 <ehird> Well, apart from AnMaster.
20:34:55 <ais523> but it has a black background, therefore it's a pirated version of Vista
20:35:05 <AnMaster> guess what colour/pattern the walls in this room is
20:35:25 <Deewiant> ais523: Is this a reference to something?
20:35:40 <ehird> Linux is an illegal pirated Vista version made by Linyos Torovoltos
20:35:41 <AnMaster> hint: it is same as the ceiling
20:35:42 <ais523> in Windows Vista, if you pirate it, the desktop background is set to all-black every 10 minutes or so
20:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Ultraviolet
20:36:09 <ais523> one theory as to why is so that Microsoft can spot pirated versions via screenshots
20:36:24 <AnMaster> floor is some kind of greenish though
20:36:27 <ais523> and yet it's subtle enough that it doesn't put off legit users whose computers are detected as pirated by mistake
20:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: what is the floor
20:36:38 <Deewiant> I don't think that makes much sense
20:36:52 <ais523> well, they must do it for some reason
20:36:58 <ais523> ofc lots of people set their desktop to black deliberately
20:37:07 <Deewiant> And all pirated Vistas I've seen don't have that "problem". :-P
20:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is the area of a room that is during normal operation "down"
20:37:35 <ehird> ais523: Konversation is gone in Kubuntu 9.04
20:37:44 <ehird> ais523: Replaced by Quassel http://people.ubuntu.com/~jriddell/9.04-release/quassel40.png
20:37:46 <ehird> AnMaster: what material
20:37:48 <ehird> you said light green
20:37:59 <ais523> I'm very amused at the way it's done on a timer, rather than just making changing it from black impossible
20:38:05 <AnMaster> Not sure that is the right English word
20:38:09 <ais523> ehird: I'm not too surprised, given that Konversation is KDE3
20:38:30 <ehird> this room has a shitty carpet floor
20:38:43 <ehird> and I mean shitty as in crap, not as in faeces -- oh, wait.
20:38:48 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, this room might be some plastic thingy rather than linoleum.
20:38:53 <ehird> um, as in rubbish.
20:38:56 <AnMaster> most other rooms are linoleum though.
20:39:00 <ehird> whereby I mean not rubbish, but bad.
20:39:24 <AnMaster> and the other rooms are some greyish colour for the floor.
20:39:43 <AnMaster> and there I'm sure it is linoleum.
20:39:47 * ehird concludes that Kubuntu 9.04 is kind of naff compared to Ubuntu
20:40:10 <ehird> I love British slang words for rubbish
20:40:13 <ehird> NAFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
20:40:47 <ehird> The ubuntu cds are 32 bit
20:41:08 <AnMaster> and also, why not get the iso yourself
20:41:17 <ehird> I haven't made an order; you just can't buy 64 bit CDs
20:41:21 <AnMaster> that's what I usually do for nix. Saving costs for them and so on.
20:41:25 <ehird> And because I might as well get the fancy packaging :P
20:41:53 <ehird> Plus it supports Ubuntu.
20:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, environmentally that is bad. What is the CO2 footprint for the shipping and the paper thingy
20:42:30 <AnMaster> compared to some cd-r you happen to have around somewhere.
20:42:45 <AnMaster> (I don't believe you don't have any blank cd-r lying around somewhere)
20:42:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The CD has already been manufactured, see.
20:42:58 <ehird> Just like how not eating animals won't suddenly stop them being killed.
20:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it hasn't already been shipped has it.
20:43:02 <ais523> I have a Feisty CD that's never been opened
20:43:05 <ais523> it came with the laptop
20:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, I'm shipping a power-hungry PC (if I ran it under load a long time, that is) from America.
20:43:29 <ais523> and it's still in its plastic wrapping
20:43:41 <ehird> Not buying an Ubuntu CD would be like not stomping on someone's head after you knock them out.
20:43:44 <ais523> my laptop was shipped from Ireland, I think
20:44:14 <ehird> ais523: what company?
20:44:16 <ais523> also, is AnMaster really a dude? By any definition of the word?
20:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it would in the long term reduce the number of animals killed. Since the producers won't be able to sell as many. And having to throw away the meat is a waste of money they will try to reduce the production to fit the market demands.
20:44:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, if millions of people suddenly stopped eating meat.
20:44:44 <ehird> ais523: My use of "dude" is restricted to "... Seriously?"
20:45:01 <ehird> "A dude is an individual, typically male, particularly somebody well dressed or who has never lived outside a big city"
20:45:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you well dressed?
20:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not a vegetarian, but I only by locally produced food.
20:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on for what. I'm not dressed for the Nobel feast or such if that is what you mean
20:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, let's say yes. Have you ever lived outside a big city?
20:46:00 <AnMaster> I have never lived in a "big" city.
20:46:11 <ehird> Well, you're a half-dude.
20:46:19 <ais523> I've always lived in Birmingham, which is about 1 million people
20:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, jeans, t-shirt, jumper/sweater/"whatever the word was" made of wool
20:46:37 <ehird> I've lived in... hmm. A lot of places.
20:46:51 <ehird> Let's see what I can remember...
20:46:58 <ais523> and now you live in Hexham, which is famous although its residents deny it
20:47:19 <ehird> Born in hemel hempstead (sp)... somewhere or another for a while... west pelton... prudhoe... and hexham
20:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird, large town means 20 000 inhabitants here btw.
20:47:24 <ais523> AnMaster: like a jumper, but with buttons
20:47:32 <ehird> Prudhoe twice, first time when I was ... 3?
20:47:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it does not have buttons
20:47:38 <ehird> So I don't really remember much before that
20:47:47 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the issue is that UK and US words are different iirc. And I mix them up.
20:48:04 <ais523> jumper's UK, I hardly hear sweater so maybe it's US
20:48:56 <AnMaster> interesting. When I turn on the fluorescent (sp?) lamp here I hear a buzz in some speakers connected to a turned off device.
20:49:25 <ais523> at 50 hertz, by any chance
20:49:28 <AnMaster> I mean, I have heard that when with fluorescent (sp?) lamps when device was *turned on*
20:49:44 <ais523> I know working on light sensors before, I've got them to pick up the 50 Hz fluctuation in flourescent (sp?) lamp brightness
20:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, quite possible. Don't have any tool to measure with.
20:49:54 * ais523 suspects fluorescent is indeed right
20:50:11 <ais523> with a coil of wire, you can pick up nearby mains frequencies using induction
20:50:16 <ehird> The funnest thing about computer fans / well, or any fans
20:50:22 <AnMaster> turned off speakers, turned off device. And actually both are even unplugged.
20:50:31 <ehird> Is that if two are almost-but-not-quite the same speed, you get a loud beat every now and then
20:50:43 <ehird> Which is rather obvious
20:50:45 <ehird> But still irritating
20:51:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed obvious. Interference (sp?)
20:51:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so what to do to reduce the noise...
20:51:43 <AnMaster> turning off the lamp is not an option, too dark then
20:51:44 <ais523> AnMaster: put them in a metal cage
20:51:50 <nooga> oh no, now facebook states tham i'm swedish instead of japanese
20:51:59 <AnMaster> ais523, can you shield the cable or something
20:52:11 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
20:52:17 <ais523> it's probably the light itself and the speakers themselves that are coupling, though
20:52:44 <AnMaster> ais523, putting either in metal case would be.... impractical to say the least.
20:53:21 <AnMaster> for the lamp: desk mounted lamp, on an adjustable arm thingy.
20:53:45 <AnMaster> for the speakers... well they are on the desk too. I had both for years.
20:53:54 <AnMaster> only today this issue started.
20:54:03 <AnMaster> it worked when placed the same way before.
20:54:21 <AnMaster> that makes no sense. And yes the noise does go away when I turn off the lamp.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> ais523, strange... if I put anything grounded *next to* the speakers (a few cm away) the sound goes away
20:55:43 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, it's picking up most of the signal, then
20:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it is like this: (grounded thing) (speaker) (lamp)
20:56:23 <AnMaster> well without line break (if that happened in your client)
20:56:34 <ais523> so? putting metal anywhere nearby really messes with electromagnetic signals
20:57:38 <AnMaster> I'm standing about half a meter away. If touch something grounded the sound goes away.
20:57:52 <AnMaster> I'm further away from the speakers than the lamp
20:58:25 <AnMaster> the grounded thing I touched was the metal case of the computer.
20:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: you really don't want me to go into the details
20:58:56 <ais523> I can't remember them all, and you spend /years/ learning about them
20:59:26 <AnMaster> ais523, seems strange that me touching the pc case far away from the lamp *and* the speakers make the noise go away though.
20:59:39 <ais523> you changed the resonances in the environment
20:59:53 <ais523> obviously something in the way that the metal around there was arranged either amplified or focused the signal
21:00:02 <AnMaster> ais523, guess so. So I guess something else recently changed the resonances to make this noise issue happen
21:00:56 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
21:01:38 <ehird> 20:57 mib_uq9m6s: hello all!
21:01:38 <ehird> 20:57 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: would you like to increase your potence?
21:01:40 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: mib_uq9m6s: do you know who employs Slava Pestov?
21:01:41 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: never let your woman down with this formula!
21:01:44 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: mib_uq9m6s: is that a yes or a no?
21:01:46 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: increase female oorgaaasm
21:01:48 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: slava: i think you have a spammer in your channel. fix it.
21:01:49 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: a breakthrough in medical science!
21:01:51 <ehird> battle of the trolls
21:02:47 <ais523> mib_uq9m6s is obviously a bot
21:03:00 <ais523> thegoldsnitch probably isn't, though
21:03:19 <ehird> thegoldsnitch has been trolling for ages
21:03:27 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting. Straightening out a loop on the unplugged power cable of the speakers helped.
21:03:29 <ehird> the mib_ is a joker, counter-trolling them
21:03:43 <AnMaster> in such a case I guess a shielded cable *would* help after all
21:03:54 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, loops are one of the things that has the biggest effect on resonances in anything
21:04:06 <ais523> so much so that just by winding a wire into a coil, it can set fire to something when it's turned off
21:04:11 <ais523> in theory, anyway, and only when using DC
21:04:23 <ais523> I'm sure it's been done in the lab, but it rarely comes up in practice
21:04:29 <fizzie> Yay, I just stitched together my first panorama-style image: http://zem.fi/g2/d/5866-3/panorama.jpg -- I had a hunch that open-sourcey panorama-creation tools would be hellishly unuserfriendly, but this "hugin" frontend wasn't that bad. Too bad the image contents are the boring.
21:04:55 <ehird> fizzie: http://uk.lge.com/download/product/L/L246WH/l246wh_1213086606192_m.jpg what's the dip on the bottom-right?
21:05:37 <AnMaster> ais523, it was even not a coil, just a loop that wasn't even "flat" (meaning it was several cm of air between the cable where it crossed itself.
21:05:54 <ais523> yes, a coil's like a loop but much worse
21:06:07 <Deewiant> fizzie: If I went over that carefully would I find a discontinuity?
21:06:21 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it's a vaguely triangle-shaped... outdentation? There's a "V"-shaped (but pretty flat) power led (orange on standby, blue on on) thing there.
21:06:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know. We had to build an electrical engine in school many years ago. The coil bit was tedious
21:06:40 <ehird> fizzie: that seems to be it
21:06:47 <ehird> can it be flattened :P
21:06:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: I assume so, although it's blended them pretty nicely. I cropped the close-in-front parts that were obviously wrong-looking.
21:07:36 <fizzie> ehird: Er, well, I don't think there's any important electronics in there, so... yes, if you want to do violence to your monitor, I guess.
21:07:37 <Deewiant> If the original image areas were overlapping I guess there wouldn't be any
21:07:52 <Deewiant> Unless the angles were very messed up
21:08:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's supposed to auto-correct image exposure and blend them nicely. And the image is pretty blurry and vague, anyway.
21:08:49 <fizzie> Oh, and do something to the lens-related distortion too.
21:09:05 <fizzie> At least it wanted to know things about it.
21:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think you want to do that, 1) void waranty 2) removing the LED fizzie said was there would probably mess up the electronics, you don't want to know what mixing up two resistors with different resistance in a circuit diagram may result in...
21:10:59 <fizzie> Yes, well, you can replace the LED with something. I wouldn't start hacking at it, anyway.
21:11:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: There were tracks in front in the snow that appeared in multiple pictures which did not really overlap well since I mostly gave it control points in the horizon (and anyway it would've probably required rather curious image-transformations), those were rather discontinuitific.
21:11:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, replacing it with an identical LED would be a good idea.
21:11:48 <ais523> incidentally, I've been using an unusual indentation style for my C recently
21:11:54 <ehird> it's the v that bothers me
21:11:54 <ais523> I call it "the other true brace style"
21:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, http://uk.lge.com/download/product/L/L246WH/l246wh_1213086606192_m.jpg is too low res to be able to see.
21:12:16 <ais523> it puts { on the same line as the opening of a loop, as in while(x) {
21:12:21 <ais523> and } on the last line of the block
21:12:33 <ais523> so it's like python in that the left margin follows the code exactly
21:12:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i have large versions
21:12:41 <ais523> and like Lisp in that you stack lots of closing } at the end
21:12:48 <ais523> it saves a lot of vertical space
21:12:56 <ehird> AnMaster: lge.com, uk, l246wh
21:13:05 <ais523> IMO, it makes more sense than 1tbs, where the closing }s are out of place to my eyes
21:13:15 <AnMaster> ehird, the linked picture was *low* res
21:13:21 <nooga> in sadol there is no closing )
21:13:30 <ehird> AnMaster: its a download on the site.
21:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you link to it...
21:13:54 <AnMaster> I assume with download you mean "pdf" or something
21:14:03 <AnMaster> ais523, why that indention style
21:14:17 <AnMaster> ais523, and can astyle or indent handle it
21:14:22 <ais523> AnMaster: because I'm used to typing { on the same line as the opening block now for Perl
21:14:35 <ais523> and I decided I may as well go the same way, 1tbs is ridiculously uglily asymmetrical
21:14:48 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and? I type { on same. And } else {
21:15:08 <AnMaster> but other than those } is on separate
21:15:27 <ais523> yes, separate } takes up some much space in a useless part of the program
21:15:36 <ais523> the close of a loop isn't very interesting, especially not to take up vertical space!
21:15:38 <AnMaster> like (struct foo ){ .x = x, .y = y }
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21:15:51 <AnMaster> like (struct foo) { .x = x, .y = y }
21:16:20 <AnMaster> if there is a space after a (cast) or not depends.
21:16:59 <nooga> (struct foo) {.x=x,.y=y} ?
21:17:04 <AnMaster> #define vector_create_ref(a, b) (& (funge_vector) { .x = (a), .y = (b) })
21:17:19 <AnMaster> and no this is quite different from statement expression
21:17:20 <Deewiant> Surely you don't need the brackets there?
21:17:56 <ais523> Deewiant: you can't pass an unparenthesised comma expression as an argument to a macro anyway
21:18:07 <Deewiant> Yes, I was just about to type that I realized that
21:18:13 <AnMaster> anyway it is usually a good idea to use ()
21:18:15 <Deewiant> So now I'm wondering whether they're necessary again
21:18:20 <ais523> C injection, obviously
21:18:36 <ais523> does anything have lower priority than =?
21:18:39 <AnMaster> ais523, mostly it helps when you want to do unusual stuff.
21:18:56 <Deewiant> Even if there's another = it'll work
21:18:57 <AnMaster> and it's a good habit, unless you are going to use ## or #
21:20:11 <Deewiant> I'm just wondering whether they're necessary in this case
21:20:24 <AnMaster> nooga, anyway yes it is C. Check your copy of the C99 spec.
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21:21:00 <fizzie> You can also check GCC's "Compound Literals" info-page.
21:21:02 <nooga> now my compiler became a translator, trivial translator
21:21:18 <Deewiant> Compilers are all trivial translators
21:21:22 <fizzie> Used to be GCC extension before the C99 thing.
21:21:26 <Deewiant> It's just the degree of triviality that matters
21:21:35 <Deewiant> s/matters/varies/ is what I meant
21:21:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Is it "by definition trivial, since a computer can do it"?
21:23:39 <nooga> but still i need to solve type inference to avoid using one universal type with all this bloated rtti and unions and such
21:23:54 <nooga> and write fast run-time lib
21:25:42 <AnMaster> * needing to call another macro to stringify a #define. Two other ones in fact.
21:26:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does that work...
21:26:23 <nooga> do {} while(0) is useful
21:26:27 <fizzie> Hey, GCC nowadays has "0b" prefix for binary constants? That's funky.
21:26:38 <Deewiant> That's stolen from D is what it is :-P
21:26:39 <AnMaster> nooga, link to spec of this language
21:26:49 <nooga> AnMaster: what language?
21:26:59 <AnMaster> the one you made a compiler for...
21:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I think I saw it in some other language before. Where D stole it from
21:27:41 <nooga> http://esolangs.org/wiki/SADOL tl;dr probably
21:27:43 <Deewiant> I'd be /very/ surprised if it was a new idea in 2001 or whenever
21:27:47 <fizzie> It's really not a horribly innovative leap, you know.
21:29:10 <AnMaster> I prefer the erlang syntax (they probably stole it from prolog or something): base#number 16#abc 2#101
21:29:20 <nooga> variable can dynamically change type to one of: double, int, string, list, function
21:30:39 <AnMaster> $ echo $(( 0x20 )) $(( 040 )) $(( 32#k ))
21:31:06 <AnMaster> $ echo $(( 50#k )) $(( 50#K ))
21:31:16 <nooga> :a5 {now a is int} :a~2+#_0#_1 {now a is func} :a$0 {now a is list, etc.}
21:31:21 <AnMaster> it is case insensitive if only one alphabet is needed.
21:32:26 <AnMaster> nooga, what about it. Sounds like any other dynamically typed dynamic language when it comes to variable type changing for the same variable. Not usual syntax though.
21:33:01 <AnMaster> but there are certainly languages that allow such stuff. Python and perl comes to mind.
21:33:10 <AnMaster> not sure about the function one though
21:33:30 <AnMaster> but you could assign a int, then a float, and if python then a list to the same variable name.
21:33:46 <AnMaster> nooga, can't you solve this by JITing?
21:34:03 <fizzie> Perl doesn't let you put a list or a hash in a scalar variable; but you can certainly put a list reference or a hash reference or a code reference or a typeglob or whatever.
21:34:10 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> but you could assign a int, then a float, and if python then a list to the same variable name."
21:34:30 <fizzie> Yes, it was sort of an add-on comment.
21:34:58 <AnMaster> I started irc in failsafe mode.
21:38:46 <AnMaster> Slereah, what is an "ami rite"?
21:39:03 <AnMaster> sounds like the *other* type of esoteric
21:39:10 <AnMaster> you must be in the wrong channel
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21:47:09 <nooga> AnMaster: JIT -> slow
21:47:35 <nooga> you compile at run time
21:47:49 <AnMaster> nooga, yes but you compile once. then execute that code many times
21:48:00 <AnMaster> and it isn't slow really, not if you compile to byte code first.
21:48:40 <nooga> i want sadol programs to me nearly as fast as corresponding C programs
21:48:41 <AnMaster> nooga, plus you can create different versions of the code for integer or float or such when it would help for performance, and both are possible
21:49:10 <AnMaster> nooga, jit can be faster, since you can optimise it based on usage pattern
21:49:28 <AnMaster> if something gets called a lot, maybe inline it
21:49:44 <AnMaster> if something isn't used often, don't, it helps locality of reference.
21:50:06 <nooga> llvm comes to mind
21:51:27 <nooga> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1453274305 :0
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22:03:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you plan to wiztest.
22:03:53 <ais523> drinking loads of juice
22:04:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you expect it to do. And what did it do.
22:04:37 <ais523> not choke me, and it didn't
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22:07:05 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
22:09:28 <AnMaster> try foo() of bar -> {ok, quux} catch error:badarg -> error end
22:09:41 <AnMaster> now that is a rather insane syntax IMO
22:10:58 <AnMaster> the erlang: try Expression [of match1 -> ...; match2 -> ...; ... matchn -> ... ] catch [match1 -> ...; match2 -> ...; ... matchn -> ... ] end
22:11:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I find the combining case and try in try Expression of rather odd.
22:13:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not having try and case combined
22:13:56 <Deewiant> Yes, but what's the point of that
22:14:07 <Deewiant> Since you'd have to use case anyway in case of an error
22:14:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err, catch would have case.
22:15:02 <Deewiant> Oh right, those cases are separate
22:15:17 <AnMaster> try Expression [of "matching on return value if no exception was thrown" -> ... ] catch [ "matching on exception" -> ... ] end
22:15:38 <Deewiant> Yeah, I just managed to miss that 'catch' there
22:15:47 <AnMaster> anyway you can actually do: case catch foo() of "matches on both" -> ... end
22:16:27 <Deewiant> That seems more sensical to me, unless functions can return error values without throwing them
22:17:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well try of catch end is rather powerful
22:17:31 <Deewiant> Is that syntax somehow less powerful?
22:19:20 <AnMaster> since exceptions are atoms, yes kind of. Or used to be at least.
22:19:39 <AnMaster> and not sure if you can do more than one expression in it
22:19:56 <AnMaster> like try\n foo,\n blah\ncatch ...
22:40:34 <ehird> 21:47 nooga: AnMaster: JIT -> slow
22:40:41 <ehird> I hereby award nooga the idiot award.
22:41:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well he is right. For certain values or right.
22:42:05 <Deewiant> ehird doesn't really care, he just likes calling people stupid and lazy and whatever
22:42:07 <AnMaster> you have overhead of JITing, and because of that overhead you have to avoid slow but good algorithms for optimising certain stuff.
22:42:19 <AnMaster> register allocation is a good example of that.
22:42:48 <ehird> Deewiant: it's good for the soul
22:43:02 <AnMaster> however a lot of that can be worked around by doing some optimisations on the byte code in advance.
22:43:12 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, it keeps the existence of a soul at bay
22:43:15 <AnMaster> and for long running programs it won't matter.
22:43:33 <Deewiant> There's nothing to keep at bay; and if there was, I wouldn't care :-P
22:43:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah well, it's also good for the your face.
22:44:32 <ehird> No. Your mom is BEYOND HELP.
22:47:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw invalid utf-8 for stdio input will make & and ~ reflect. I can't work around it. Since io:get_line() (which I use to fill the buffer for the line buffered input) returns {error,collect_line} if it detects invalid utf-8
22:47:32 <AnMaster> and.... nfc why "collect_line"...
22:47:46 <ehird> Erlang is so crap.
22:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not really. Just closed world.
22:48:10 <ehird> It's crap apart from closed worldness, but it's bad at being closed world too!
22:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: near field communication>
22:48:25 <ehird> national football conference?
22:48:45 <Deewiant> Which I guess is what ehird tried as well
22:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: NFC, an acronym for "No Fat Chicks", can be used in multiple ways. It can be applied to simply represent a woman with large body mass - such as "did you see that NFC", a label - such as "NFC Emily", or as a literal translation of its meaning; "Come check to my party - NFC!"
22:49:02 <ehird> It's the first result.
22:49:09 <ehird> Don't say shit like stfw if YOU CAN'T JUST DO THAT.
22:49:15 <Deewiant> No Flippin' Clue (polite form)
22:49:26 <AnMaster> and the first meaning I never heard.
22:49:29 <ehird> are all non-no-fucking-clue
22:49:39 <ehird> so i conclude that "STFW" was inaccurate
22:50:45 <ehird> Society of Teachers of Family Medicine
22:51:03 <ehird> Deewiant: I only repeat google.
22:51:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Ignore google's "did your mean"
22:51:38 <ehird> Google's UI for it is so shit.
22:51:46 <ehird> All of the other results are usernames.
22:51:49 <ehird> Or things about surgery.
22:51:56 <ehird> no, I dislike it besides
22:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, "see the first fucking match" (and I just made that one up now)
22:52:00 <ehird> because it looks like the regular results
22:52:18 <AnMaster> "Did you mean: stfm Top 2 results shown"
22:52:38 <ehird> Yes, but if you ignore googlecruft at the top of the page like I, it looks like the regular results
22:53:00 <ehird> Because it's normally cruft.
22:53:04 <AnMaster> I use googlecustomize in firefox to filter the "sponsored links"
22:53:09 <AnMaster> so there is no cruft there usually.
22:53:34 <Deewiant> I consider everything above the first result for my exact search term 'cruft', to an extent
22:54:36 <ehird> I liked the google style circa 2003, with the gray/blue tabs. More distinction from the search terms.
22:55:05 <ehird> First example I could find: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html (a ye olde googlebomb)
22:55:30 <Deewiant> Yeah, I prefer that style as well.
22:56:52 <AnMaster> but their 404/500 pages still look like that.
22:56:59 <ehird> It's not very retro IMO, it looks more modern than the current style
22:57:46 <ehird> I wonder if google will ever remove I'm Feeling Lucky.
22:58:03 <ehird> (Do I use it? No.)
22:58:33 <AnMaster> you can just do it with two clicks
22:58:53 <ehird> It's completely useless, it has a silly name, and it's given equal prominence to the only useful button. The day it goes is the day Google finally becomes an unfun corporate monster.
22:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, they are just keeping it to fool you
23:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, about that "House of Leaves" book you mentioned before. Do you have a copy of it?
23:00:35 <ehird> I'm tempted to get one though
23:00:41 <AnMaster> guess it is easier to read with an image editor
23:00:50 <ehird> "The endpapers of the US hardcover edition of the novel contain hexadecimal characters, which are actually an AIFF audio file of an excerpt from Poe's track "Angry Johnny" when saved as a file in a hex editor."
23:01:16 <ehird> I just have one thing to say.
23:01:19 <ehird> WHO THE HELL FIGURED THAT OUT
23:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/HouseOfLeavesPage134.gif needed both flip and "turn 180 degrees" to read (for different parts)
23:01:42 <ehird> Deewiant: OCR isn't that good, is it?
23:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: That's harder with an image editor than flipping a book around
23:02:03 <Deewiant> ehird: I mean, somebody typed the bytes
23:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but the "flip" is not
23:02:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that is flip left to right, mirroring image.
23:02:16 <Deewiant> And then ran file(1) or noticed the "AIFF" at the start or whatever
23:02:17 <ehird> Deewiant: That must have taken ages; uncompressed audio is big.
23:02:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Portable mirorr.
23:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, still rather hard to read with
23:02:47 <Deewiant> ehird: It can't be too long if it's in the book.
23:03:19 <ehird> You guys have any opinions about the voynich manuscript?
23:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, that is one of them undecoded ones right
23:03:47 <ehird> with the weird picturse
23:04:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/F75r.jpg
23:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, refresh my memory of what the pics were of
23:04:07 <ehird> AnMaster: various things
23:04:15 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript#Illustrations
23:04:43 <ehird> "HAWT XXX BATHING"
23:04:47 <ehird> is the title of the book, translated.
23:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't even look very sexy...
23:05:14 <ehird> I don't think it's intended to be porn, AnMaster.
23:05:24 <ehird> I think it's more that they're naked because, you know, they're bathing.
23:05:32 <ehird> In a weird-ass tube system.
23:05:48 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:05:51 <AnMaster> the author is complaining about the still not invented "swimsuite"
23:05:58 <ehird> "Biological — a dense continuous text interspersed with figures, mostly showing small nude women bathing in pools or tubs connected by an elaborate network of pipes, some of them clearly shaped like body organs. Some of the women wear crowns."
23:14:33 * Sgeo is rooting for "hoax"
23:14:55 <AnMaster> nah, too much work put into it
23:15:09 <AnMaster> if it was a few pages sure. But there are too many,and too many drawings
23:15:24 <AnMaster> and there seems to have been no economical reason.
23:16:01 <ehird> if it is, then the author is the singlemost amazing hoaxist of all time
23:16:35 <Deewiant> If it isn't, why write it in a random script
23:16:50 <ehird> It was probably not a sui generis script
23:17:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis
23:17:18 <ehird> Sui generis (English pronunciation (IPA): /ˌsuːiˈdʒɛnərɪs/, Latin pronunciation: /ˌsui ge'neris/) is a Neo-Latin expression, literally meaning of its own kind/genus or unique in its characteristics.
23:17:22 <Deewiant> The likelihood of that is quite low IMO
23:17:26 <AnMaster> also it could be a code. As in you know. For keeping it secret.
23:17:50 <ehird> Voynich hasn't made anyone famous.
23:17:55 <ehird> It hasn't brought much money in.
23:18:02 <ehird> It just sits there being weird.
23:18:21 <ehird> There's no reason for it to be a hoax.
23:18:57 <Deewiant> Completely losing a script in which it is possible to write a book just seems unlikely
23:19:08 <ehird> I'm sure there are plenty of old, lost script
23:19:11 <Deewiant> I mean, the only evidence of a script only 500 years old is exactly one manuscript?
23:19:15 <ehird> It's also possible it was written by, well, a mad man.
23:19:24 <ehird> Have you seen those illustrations?
23:20:08 <Deewiant> I guess I'm mostly of the opinion that I doubt anybody has ever been capable of deciphering it, other than the author
23:20:23 <AnMaster> I have to agree with Deewiant here.
23:20:30 <Sgeo> What's the difference between <z> and <Z>?
23:20:35 <ehird> The script seems too... elaborate.
23:20:38 <Deewiant> To me that just means that it's most likely a hoax
23:20:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo, one is upper case and one is lower case.
23:20:50 <Sgeo> I meant in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Voynich_Alphabet
23:21:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to me it means it is a private script. Possibly some secret society, or just one person.
23:21:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it's a society then it contradicts what I said
23:21:31 <Deewiant> If it's just one person; why write such a book?
23:21:34 <kerlo> The Eight Deadly Sins: Pride, Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Anger, Envy, Lust, Writing Code That Defeats Other Code.
23:21:49 <ehird> http://inamidst.com/voynich/months
23:21:50 <Deewiant> I guess it could just be one huge notebook or something like that, for personal use
23:21:53 <ehird> & also http://inamidst.com/voynich
23:21:57 <ehird> Deewiant: It's too section-y for that.
23:22:01 <ehird> Each section has a theme
23:22:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, alchemists liked to keep stuff secret from other ones.
23:22:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Where "notebook" includes "logbook" etc.
23:22:22 <ehird> AnMaster: It is very alchemist-like, yes.
23:22:23 <Sgeo> People wouldn't section notebooks back then?
23:22:30 <ehird> The author was probably an alchemist.
23:22:30 <AnMaster> Nothing of that publish in any journal you can find!
23:22:32 <Deewiant> I.e. something written for oneself to prevent oneself from having to memorize tonnes of crap.
23:22:57 <Deewiant> Whether it was written incrementally or not doesn't matter
23:22:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Note/logbook + paranoia.
23:24:53 <ehird> I hope it is deciphered some day.
23:25:20 <AnMaster> well since it isn't a OTP I guess it is theoretically possible.
23:33:08 <ehird> How are you meant to backup a 1TB drive? I mean, apart from purchasing a ton of 2TB drives and RAIDing them.
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23:40:17 <nooga> probably it's total bullshit
23:43:05 <ehird> i guess i jus won't back up ;)
23:44:49 -!- Judofyr has joined.
23:44:59 <ehird> "The linguist Jacques Guy once suggested that the Voynich manuscript text could be some exotic natural language, written in the plain with an invented alphabet. The word structure is indeed similar to that of many language families of East and Central Asia, mainly Sino-Tibetan (Chinese, Tibetan, and Burmese), Austroasiatic (Vietnamese, Khmer, etc.) and possibly Tai (Thai, Lao, etc.). In many of these languages, the "words" have only one syllable; and syl
23:45:02 <ehird> lables have a rather rich structure, including tonal patterns. "
23:45:11 <ehird> "The main argument for this theory is that it is consistent with all statistical properties of the Voynich manuscript text which have been tested so far, including doubled and tripled words (which have been found to occur in Chinese and Vietnamese texts at roughly the same frequency as in the Voynich manuscript). It also explains the apparent lack of numerals and Western syntactic features (such as articles and copulas), and the general inscrutability of
23:45:13 <ehird> the illustrations. Another possible hint is two large red symbols on the first page, which have been compared to a Chinese-style book title, inverted and badly copied. Also, the apparent division of the year into 360 degrees (rather than 365 days), in groups of 15 and starting with Pisces, are features of the Chinese agricultural calendar (jie qi). The main argument against the theory is the fact that no one (including scholars at the Chinese Academy of
23:45:18 <ehird> Sciences in Beijing) could find any clear examples of Asian symbolism or Asian science in the illustrations. "
23:45:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> How are you meant to backup a 1TB drive? I mean, apart from purchasing a ton of 2TB drives and RAIDing them. <-- tape
23:45:49 <ehird> AnMaster: er how much can tapes store
23:45:55 <ehird> also how much money, how much speed
23:46:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen 120 GB tapes, and that was 4 or 5 years ago.
23:46:20 <AnMaster> and that was without compression
23:46:33 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 terabyte
23:46:39 <ehird> and you want me to back it up
23:46:50 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't need a lot of them
23:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, "and that was 4 or 5 years ago"
23:47:02 <ehird> AnMaster: generally a backup system has more than 1x the storage of your drive!!
23:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, you have a base backup + incremental ones
23:47:32 <ehird> I'd probably only back up every month.
23:47:33 <AnMaster> ehird, read man dump on freebsd
23:47:35 <ehird> "As of 2008, the highest capacity tape cartridges (Sun StorageTek T10000B, IBM TS1130) can store 1 TB of data without using compression."
23:47:39 <ehird> So I'd need up to 5 or so.
23:47:54 <ehird> Which I assume cost a lot.
23:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't use one tape only anyway
23:48:18 <ehird> I imagine tapes are really slow
23:48:28 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the advantage here of buying multiple terabyte drives
23:48:33 <ehird> (which i'm not doing because of $$$)
23:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rafb.net/p/ICiP8q61.html
23:48:49 <ehird> 120 gb/s w/ 62 second loading time
23:48:56 <ehird> of the sun 1tb tabe
23:49:26 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StorageTek_tape_formats#Cartridge_formats
23:49:33 <ehird> 120 mb/sec and it needs 62 seconds to start up.
23:49:56 <Sgeo> Why is explorer so sucky?
23:49:58 <ehird> I bet they cost thousands
23:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, tapes aren't meant to be random access. Remember that.
23:50:35 <AnMaster> so those 62 seconds aren't very bad
23:50:44 <nooga> i was backing up 3TB
23:50:44 <ehird> but why would i do this
23:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also remember compression
23:50:49 <ehird> why wouldn't I just get a bunch of drives
23:51:12 <nooga> bought 3x1TB hdd, included into my RAID, done
23:51:17 <ehird> yeah, except the reason I'm not doing that is that I don't have the cash to spill on 2x2TB drives
23:52:56 <kerlo> I just got paid five bucks for writing the following regular expression: /\&\;/g
23:53:00 <ehird> Twitter for when you blink.
23:53:14 <ehird> I want to write a regexp for them
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