00:00:01 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04/17/pedisedate/ ← AAAAAA 00:00:19 wow, my .mozilla is rather large 00:00:25 ais523, you don't know what's on your disk? 00:00:29 that's what caused me a problem over on the Sun computers 00:00:39 AnMaster: not /everything/, I have loads of packages installed 00:00:42 ais523, *.sqlite files in could be large in it IME. 00:00:58 ~/.local is nearly a GB, I wonder what's in there? 00:01:12 My main issue with my new system is partitioning between the two drives. 00:01:25 ais523, try (after quitting firefox) cd ~/.mozilla/; for i in *.sqlite; do sqlite3 $i VACUUM; done 00:01:27 and ~/nwn is 3 GB, but that's not surprising 00:01:32 that usually frees quite some space 00:01:34 AnMaster: no need, I'm not low on space yet 00:01:43 ais523, it speeds up firefox too 00:01:50 ehird: Moral of the story, use LVM. Repartitioning is easy. :) 00:01:55 ais523, and reduces RAM needed. 00:02:02 ais523, needs to be redone every few weeks. 00:02:11 pikhq, indeed :D 00:02:11 why doesn't firefox do it automatically? 00:02:15 Have to unmount to shrink, probably, but nice and easy to grow the filesystem. 00:02:16 pikhq: I'm scared of LVM though,. 00:02:21 ais523, for various reasons. 00:02:24 s/,\.$/./ 00:02:30 ehird, and so you should be! 00:02:34 pikhq: Also, that doesn't impress me. 00:02:52 the tools are a pain to use. But it is very flexible. 00:02:54 pikhq: I deleted a dormant partition and resized my main one to fill its space, all from within Disk Utility, instantly taking effect. 00:02:57 That is in fact the issue of it. 00:02:58 Yawn. 00:02:58 The main reason you have to unmount to shrink is that most *filesystems* don't support live shrinking. 00:03:39 pikhq, indeed. IIRC jfs or some does support it however? 00:03:39 I can also move partitions to a different disk without unmounting. 00:03:41 My magical calculation gods tell me that my OS (i.e., non-home) currently uses 70GB. 00:03:43 JFS does. 00:03:52 ... 70GB?!? 00:04:05 that's extreme 00:04:17 OS X is rather the big. 00:04:24 Especially when you have as much crap as I. 00:04:26 I've got 32GB used, and that's because I've got a lot of junk I don't need installed. 00:04:33 Oh, and that's including full source. 00:04:40 pikhq, is it JFS that too? which command? 00:04:54 Still, brushing 70GB confirms that I'm right not to go for the 80GB X25-M. 00:05:06 I'd rather have a ton of unused space than have to, you know, delete stuff. 00:05:08 That's lvm. pvremove. 00:05:28 pikhq, um.. For *shrinking file system* 00:05:50 ais523: about being low-end, i think my father still uses his 300mhz win95 machine 00:06:02 I'm sure I saw some fs supporting online shrink 00:06:09 I still have a Win95 machine 00:06:12 I haven't booted it up in a while 00:06:13 oklopol: I had one of those a while back 00:06:19 I thought I'd be awesomely retro with it 00:06:21 but I'm insisting on keeping it because some things just aren't compatible with XP 00:06:23 Instead I threw it away 00:06:25 As it was useless 00:06:38 ehird: how are you going to develop 16-bit Windows applications now? 00:06:56 ais523: by wishing I'd never been born? Isn't that how it's always been done? 00:07:24 ais523, why would you want to do that? 00:07:38 i could easily do with a 300mhz computer 00:07:43 AnMaster: because the 32 bit APIs don't let you access the internal system speaker? 00:07:44 probably with 300khz 00:07:54 ais523, also there is still some support *.com for 16-bit emulation on xp 00:07:54 300khz? 00:07:55 except for them internets. 00:07:58 that would be rather painful 00:07:59 sure, you can beep, but you can't mess with the pitch or duration 00:08:08 AnMaster: yes, but it isn't perfect 00:08:18 the beep APIs don't work 00:08:24 ehird: i mainly just need irc... but i guess that would require a bit more 00:08:25 although admittedly they were deprecated in Windows 3.1 00:08:30 ais523, write a kernel driver? 00:08:31 maybe 1mhz or something 00:08:37 but more to the point, the replacement that Microsoft suggested for it doesn't work in XP either 00:08:43 ais523, Or switch to Linux or *BSD 00:08:49 it hangs for about 5 minutes whenever you load a MIDI file 00:08:50 where you can mess with the internal speaker easily 00:08:54 AnMaster: what do you think I did, eventually? 00:08:58 hahaha 00:09:04 I developed Windows applications for /years/ 00:09:08 well actually you could just have a slower connection and there would be no problem 00:09:10 it hangs for about 5 minutes whenever you load a MIDI file 00:09:13 what is this thing? 00:09:28 that's Windows XP using MCI as the API 00:09:33 MCI being? 00:09:36 it worked fine in previous versions 00:09:36 ais523: i want dna maze 00:09:39 AnMaster: an API 00:09:45 for the speaker? 00:09:47 ehird: I can send you a Window executable if you like 00:09:49 *Windows 00:09:51 it runs in WINE 00:09:54 that would not be useful :P 00:10:01 the sources don't compile any more, unfortunately 00:10:10 "dna maze"? 00:10:12 what 00:10:13 is that 00:10:14 they relied on a proprietary Borland extension to the Win16 API 00:10:22 which Borland don't support any more for obvious reasons 00:10:37 I have a copy of turbopascal for DOS somewhere. Just FYI. 00:10:38 AnMaster: computer game, that I've been developing since 2001 00:10:44 AnMaster: so do I. and it still runs. 00:10:52 interesting 00:10:57 no idea where I have it though 00:11:02 not on this computer, though, on the Win95 computer 00:11:05 I also have a working copy of MPW! 00:11:09 anyone else have that? 00:11:20 what is MPW? 00:11:22 Macintosh Programmer Workshop 00:11:26 for pre-OS X 00:11:33 I have a copy of Windows Media Player from before when it was rubbish 00:11:37 horrible thing with a pseudo shell thingy 00:11:41 "Expensive extras include 2GB of memory, a SATA-based array of .5 terabytes of storage" 00:11:42 SO EXPENSIVE 00:11:54 ais523: look up "Media Player Classic" 00:11:58 ehird, remember MPW? 00:12:03 it's old WMP interface, modern codec support etc 00:12:08 AnMaster: My first mac was this one 00:12:15 sounds interesting, but nowadays I just use Totem or Rhythmbox 00:12:22 or even timidity 00:12:26 depending on what I want it for 00:12:49 http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ 00:12:49 wow 00:12:57 they must have forgot that page 00:13:01 ehird, what about ResEdit? 00:13:14 not forgot 00:13:17 just left for history 00:13:20 also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop 00:13:27 ehird, ever used ResEdit? 00:13:44 no 00:13:52 MPW was supposed to be quitegood 00:14:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ResEdit 00:14:26 ehird, MPW was okish iirc 00:14:32 haven't used MPW for years 00:14:58 http://www.ralentz.com/old/mac/humor/mpw-c-errors.html 00:15:21 ahahaaha 00:15:44 "...And the lord said, `lo, there shall only be case or default labels inside a switch statement'" <-- someone hating duff's device? 00:15:56 no 00:16:00 switch (foo) { 00:16:00 blah: 00:16:01 } 00:16:05 is illegal, I guess 00:16:12 duff's device doesn't use non-{case,default} labels 00:16:20 ah right 00:16:25 ehird: no it isn't, I think it's switch(foo) { } case 1: that's illegal 00:16:26 that is what you mean 00:16:30 and that that's warning against 00:16:36 ah 00:16:43 i.e. it's a misplaced only, telling people off for putting a case outside a switch 00:16:45 I'm not going to boot my old mac now 00:16:49 just FYI 00:17:00 I'm not going to have a heart attack now. 00:17:01 Just FYI. 00:17:06 LLVM is 1.7 GB? Why? 00:17:14 it is? 00:17:22 ais523, what? 00:17:38 as in, the entire source tree 00:17:46 I went and compiled clang from source, as it wasn't packaged 00:17:47 no 00:17:50 and the rest of LLVM at the same time 00:17:51 no its not 00:18:00 yes it is, I just du'ed it 00:18:05 ais523, let me boot the computer that has the llvm source tree on it *sec 00:18:12 I have several GB of gcc on this computer 00:18:12 well 17 seconds in fact. 00:18:15 that's after compile, so it has all the binaries in too 00:18:22 that is how long it takes from button to ssh being up 00:18:23 coppro: have you messed with gcc internals, ever? 00:18:49 ais523: Just a touch 00:19:00 I should get back to gcc-bf some time 00:19:01 ais523, I'm running du -sh on the llvm svn checkout 00:19:10 so it will be the double size 00:19:15 ~/llvm $ du -sh llvm 00:19:15 156M llvm 00:19:19 that is the source 00:19:23 lets check build tree 00:19:27 I wonder what to call my new box. 00:19:30 $ du -sh llvm-build/ 00:19:30 207M llvm-build/ 00:19:32 llvm/Debug/bin and llvm/Debug/lib are what are taking up most of hte space, it seems 00:19:33 that's the build tree 00:19:38 ehird, tux? 00:19:45 so it's a debug build of the whole of llvm that takes up the space 00:19:49 * AnMaster use phoenix and tux for his boxes 00:19:54 ais523, this is a release build though 00:19:58 Cheetahs are the ones that run really really fast, silently, right? 00:20:02 ah, that must be why it's smaller 00:20:06 So cheetah, or ninja or something :P 00:20:07 ehird, sounds like a OS X release 00:20:09 are they silent? 00:20:14 AnMaster: it is 00:20:15 ninja is a good name for a box, actually 00:20:17 ehird, meh 00:20:23 ais523: have you ever heard a cheetah make noise while running? 00:20:24 QED 00:20:29 also, yes, but it seems a lil cliche 00:20:32 00:20:36 hmm 00:20:40 cliche? really? 00:20:44 not really 00:20:47 who calls a system "ninja"? 00:20:54 ais523: many people, I'd guess 00:20:56 ninjas are a meme 00:20:56 "tux" for a linux box is cliche though! 00:21:03 ninja is not 00:21:18 I wonder if there's a way to cache small writes to an HD 00:21:19 That is 00:21:20 * AnMaster is writing this on the local terminal of tux.lan 00:21:24 It writes to somewhere faster first 00:21:27 then copies to HD in the bg 00:21:32 to avoid pauses due to HD writes 00:21:40 e.g. in IM/IRC clients when writing to log 00:21:45 ehird, yes. memory caches. The OS does them. 00:21:46 ehird: that's every filesystem ever that does that 00:21:55 ext4 in particular caches quite a lot, it's come under fire for that 00:21:56 ais523, not FAT under DOS iirc? 00:21:58 ehird: what these guys said 00:21:58 Then why were the pauses a proble mwith SSDs? 00:22:08 AnMaster: not by default, but everyone installed smartdrv or something 00:22:12 ais523: It looks more and more like I should use ext4 for the OS thang. 00:22:15 yikes, 7GB 00:22:17 ais523, hah 00:22:28 AnMaster: FAT under DOS didn't cache reads either 00:22:29 Still undecided for the home one (everything from small text to multigb files) 00:22:30 comex, what is 7 GB? 00:22:32 annoying how i can shine only every 2 hours or so, and even then i have tons of competition :P 00:22:34 so smartdrv made a system a lot faster 00:22:35 Suggestions welcome 00:22:38 coppro, and my GCC tree 00:22:40 AnMaster: coppro 00:22:47 mistab 00:22:47 ... 00:22:58 ah 00:23:02 um 00:23:03 AnMaster: maybe you should get a better client 00:23:16 * coppro hates the evils of most IRC clients' tab-completes 00:23:19 AnMaster: Pvmove, I meant. Really. 00:23:21 actually the version reply is not on the client I'm on atm. 00:23:26 wow, ~/.strigi is 13 GB 00:23:29 I have two clients connected to the bouncer 00:23:36 ais523, what is ~/.strigi 00:23:38 I have been called "Coboney" more times than I can think of 00:23:44 I have no such thing here 00:23:47 Strigi's the KDE indexing daemon, i think 00:23:49 00:22 ehird: Still undecided for the home one (everything from small text to multigb files) ← noone have surgerestions? 00:23:57 ais523, ouch 00:23:57 as opposed to Tracker which is used on Gnome Ubuntu 00:24:07 ehird: ext3 works just fine. 00:24:09 I installed both Gnome and KDE, I should just uninstall one of the daemons as I don't need both 00:24:10 yeah, you can turn that off 00:24:15 ais523, I hate all indexing daemons apart from locate 00:24:20 which runs once a week here 00:24:24 open strigi:// in Konqueror I think 00:24:24 updatedb that is 00:24:30 pikhq: For data? Hmm... I don't think I want journaling... 00:24:39 pikhq: Think of the 2GB files! 00:24:52 ais523, other ones are just overhead that impacts both space and performance. 00:25:13 anyway, my backup strategy is interesting 00:25:29 it's not just designed to help against broken drives 00:25:33 but also against an accidental rm -r . 00:25:51 for instance, I have Emacs storing all its backups in a separate directory tree from the files being edited 00:25:54 that's come in useful before now 00:26:07 started ever since I accidentally deleted the Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler 00:26:14 I should reconstruct it sometime 00:26:14 ais523: i did that anyway, to reduce clutter 00:26:16 "This label is the target of a goto from outside of the block containing this label AND this block has an automatic variable with an initializer AND your window wasn't wide enough to read this whole error message" 00:26:17 haha 00:26:44 → 00:27:06 "You are comparing two structures that have holes in them" <-- um. Comparing structures? 00:27:09 * ais523 rm -rI ~/.strigi 00:27:11 This doesn't make sense? 00:27:15 AnMaster: memcmp? 00:27:18 ais523, -I? 00:27:32 AnMaster: prompts if the rm isn't trivial 00:27:34 ais523, well yes, that seems odd for a compiler to be able to figure out 00:27:46 ais523, "trivial" meaning... 00:27:58 to be precise, -I prompts once if you specify more than 3 files, or use -r 00:27:59 I should probably prefer that to -f... 00:28:20 does it still ignore read-only? 00:28:26 many people have alias rm = rm -I 00:28:35 * coppro does that 00:28:44 coppro: you need -f as well to ignore read-onlyness 00:28:53 ok 00:29:12 but -rIf is completely legal 00:29:17 yeah, figured that 00:29:32 what about -riff? 00:29:33 ;/ 00:29:57 lowercase i is a lot more prompty than capital I 00:30:06 it's effectively a darcs-interface rm 00:30:57 haha :D 00:32:04 ais523, yeah darcs is irritatingly unsure of it's own capabilities, feeling a need for asking the user all the time 00:32:07 ;) 00:32:14 no, not exactly 00:32:20 darcs is irritatingly incapable of reading minds 00:32:30 don't spoil a good joke :( 00:32:38 don't worry, I didn't 00:32:44 yes you did 00:32:49 well not good joke 00:32:50 joke still 00:32:52 I wonder what a Perl implementation of darcs would be like 00:32:58 :P 00:33:17 coppro, less monads, more line noise. 00:33:22 Apart from that, hard to know 00:33:25 ehird: YOU WANT JOURNALING. 00:33:33 pikhq: but even ext3 has journaling 00:33:46 ais523: And ehird said "I don't think I want journaling". 00:33:58 pikhq: For data? Hmm... I don't think I want journaling... 00:33:58 pikhq: Think of the 2GB files! 00:33:59 even 00:34:09 that's insane 00:34:35 * pikhq points at his two 21GiB files. 00:34:38 on a disk that large, you'll have to spend days fscking if you have a power cut 00:34:44 if you don't have journaling 00:35:09 Why I have losslessly compressed copies of Big Buck Bunny & Elephants Dream, I'm not quite sure. 00:35:16 * AnMaster ponders a portable cfunge for Mac OS 9. Just because. 00:35:20 Is there a downside to hournaling? 00:35:25 somewhat like openssh vs portable openssh 00:35:27 s/ h/ j/ 00:35:29 coppro: Very slightly slower. 00:35:38 except, it won't support windows. 00:35:48 just C89 on mac os classic 00:35:50 oh, yes, there are ext2 drivers for Windows, but not ext3 drivers 00:35:51 But it gets you a significantly more robust filesystem. 00:35:53 they aren't official, anyway 00:35:55 ais523, what do you think? Insane enough? 00:36:08 ais523, anyway does ick work on pre-OS X MacOS? 00:36:12 portable /and/ OS9 only? 00:36:14 ais523: And ext3 can be mounted as ext2? 00:36:18 the IFS works pretty well on ext3, even when the disk has journaling, as long as the mount/unmounts are clean 00:36:19 also, I haven't tested, but I wouldn't be surprised 00:36:23 ext3 is otherwise backwards-compatible 00:36:23 pikhq: yes if the journal is up-to-date 00:36:24 ais523, *nix and OS 9 00:36:30 :P 00:36:47 Well, yes. Sorry, I should've said: assuming clean mounts. 00:36:52 the ext2 standard has a flag saying "don't try to mount as ext2", ext3 uses that flag for "unreplayed journal data" 00:36:56 which is not a coincidence at all 00:37:16 Yeah... 00:37:27 That's good design right there. 00:37:44 I gave up on hoping for Windows mounts when I turned on extents 00:38:01 extents are ext4 right? 00:38:04 yes 00:38:22 how can anyone be insane enough to use that yet for anything important... 00:38:22 they massively reduce the amount of metadata needed for very big files 00:38:36 ais523, wouldn't help for me then 00:38:38 AnMaster: some of the more up-to-date distros have it as stable 00:38:42 I mostly have loads of small files 00:38:46 what are you talking about? 00:38:51 ext4 is stable 00:38:52 a few kb at most most of the time 00:38:54 oklopol: ext2/3/4 00:38:59 ais523: what's that 00:39:03 filesystems 00:39:08 there's more than one way to arrange data on a drive 00:39:09 coppro, the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext4 00:39:14 Windows uses FAT/FAT32/NTFS 00:39:19 but there are a lot of other filesystems around too 00:39:20 I'm going to stay to ext3 and xfs for the next few years. 00:39:21 :) 00:39:39 AnMaster: the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext3 too... 00:39:48 ais523: yes but what are these like, journaling sounds like the log-structured file systems tannerbaum talks about in MOS 00:39:51 ais523, yes but it wasn't even promised for it. 00:39:54 like it was for ext4 00:40:03 which is a rather large difference. 00:40:04 oklopol: journaling means you record what you're doing before you do it 00:40:11 ais523: ohh 00:40:13 okay that's different 00:40:15 I'm waiting for kernel versions with ext4 marked as stable to be stable in Gentoo, myself. 00:40:18 if the system crashes while you're doing it, the log makes it possible to reconstruct the filesystem 00:40:28 rather than having to run a full disk-check the next boot like Windows does with scandisk 00:40:32 the biggest mistake I made when updating was that ext4 is not compiled by default into the Intrepid kernel, so my kernel couldn't mount / 00:40:43 ais523, err NTFS is journaled 00:40:44 it is compiled into Jaunty by default 00:40:49 and no one uses FAT nowdays 00:40:49 yes it is 00:40:51 for system disk 00:40:53 yes, but Windows still does the on-boot scan anyway 00:40:53 ... 00:40:58 ais523, yes that's true 00:41:00 and you'd be surprised how many people are still on FAT32 00:41:04 but not with scandisk 00:41:08 ais523: right, that's kind of a trivial idea tho, so not very useful to me 00:41:09 it uses autochk 00:41:10 ... 00:41:16 oh, have they updated now? 00:41:26 I'm a bit out of touch on windows filesystem scanning programs 00:41:28 ais523, the name of the tool isn't scandisk in xp it is autochk 00:41:34 it is a NT native executable 00:41:38 as in, not win32 one 00:41:49 well, I've seen XP use scandisk 00:41:53 going home now, anyway 00:41:54 Win32 is the NT native API. 00:42:00 pikhq, wrong. 00:42:09 It's built into the fucking kernel. 00:42:13 pikhq, win32 is a NT native program itself. 00:42:14 ... 00:42:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:42:44 pikhq, http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897447.aspx 00:42:53 pikhq, just read the first paragraph 00:42:57 In theory, that's how the NT kernel was designed. 00:43:04 pikhq, see the link. 00:43:18 Microsoft's formal design and the actual implementation differ, in that Win32 runs in kernelspace. 00:43:46 pikhq, sure. But there are apps using this native API. Of which autochk is one 00:43:54 crss is another iirc 00:43:59 there are few like it 00:44:18 as is described in the second paragraph 00:44:29 Sounds like very poor terminology. 00:44:42 Sounds more like they mean "system calls". 00:45:19 pikhq, maybe. Maybe not. But I'm just using the official name of it. 00:45:41 Okay, that's what Microsoft calls it. 00:45:53 Yet another thing that MS does dumb. 00:46:02 pikhq, we shouldn't call this think MS calls "xp" for xp. 00:46:10 we should call it Windows NT 6.1 00:46:19 which iirc is the internal version number 00:46:37 when it comes to the getwinverex (or whatever) win32 api functions 00:46:54 It's Windows NT 5.1, but yeah. 00:47:02 ah 5.1, right 00:47:09 haha 00:47:13 "initialization Blue Screen" 00:47:26 probably not what they really meant 00:47:30 I'm also of the opinion that Windows 95 should've been called Windows 4.0. ;) 00:47:30 coppro, um... never used /sos for flag in boot.ini? 00:47:37 or whatever the flag was 00:48:04 in the context, they mean the screen that comes up when the disk check runs 00:48:07 coppro, it shows a blue screen with text instead of the xp logo then 00:48:16 not an actual Blue Screen 00:48:17 and yes it is the same for disk check 00:48:29 coppro, that screen is actually blue though! 00:48:30 Blue Screens are darker 00:48:38 ok different blue 00:50:02 yes, I'll agree the screen is blue. But not Blue 00:50:59 ok 00:52:24 Ah, Windows NT. The MS OS with decent design fouled up by poor coders and poorer additions... 00:52:52 pikhq, to be fair: 2000 and xp weren't *too* bad. 00:53:01 I mean I consider the operating systems 00:53:14 9x and vista I consider "jokes" 00:53:23 and ME 00:53:26 haven't heard enough about 7 yet to be sure 00:53:33 actually, ME isn't a joke 00:53:37 coppro, that is 9x technically 00:54:06 95 was usable 00:54:06 AnMaster: The API still has ended up being really, really screwy, because of its lack of sensible design after the fact. 00:54:08 ME was not 00:54:17 pikhq, yes. 00:54:31 pikhq, at least POSIX only got a *few* such quirks 00:54:56 And shockingly few for being 30ish years old now. 00:54:57 and them I'm specifically thinking about mkstemp() tmpnam() and so on. And signal() 00:55:08 pikhq, indeed! 00:56:01 vista is pretty nice 00:56:02 mkstemp, mkostemp, mkdtemp are more or less sane. tempnam, tmpnam, tmpfile are not. 00:56:11 ReactOS seems rather nice. 00:56:12 oklopol, ha ha 00:56:29 Plan9 wins over them all! 00:56:37 Shame they've got to deal with the Win32 API quirks, but they seem to be doing more with the NT kernel's ability to support multiple APIs. 00:56:44 Actually that's a lie. Genera wins over Plan9 00:56:46 clearly 00:56:54 ReactOS 1.0 might make me enjoy using a Windows-esque OS. 00:57:06 pikhq, parse erro 00:57:07 error* 00:57:33 Assuming that I can use it mostly using the POSIX personality, of course. :p 00:57:34 Error 500: The qualifier "enjoy" can not be used for the "windows" noun. 00:57:58 s/personality/subsystem/ 00:58:25 pikhq, "personality" is Linux terminology right? 00:58:33 for setarch kind of stuff 00:58:50 as in linux32 on multilib 64-bit systems 00:59:00 Unix-ish terminology. 00:59:04 $ uname -a 00:59:04 Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #2 Thu Apr 16 19:43:25 CEST 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux 00:59:08 $ linux32 uname -a 00:59:08 Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #2 Thu Apr 16 19:43:25 CEST 2009 i686 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux 00:59:13 :) 00:59:30 Though linux32 on x86_64 isn't using a personality, just changing a very small handful of system calls. 00:59:57 pikhq, actually it is. Running a 32-bit app isn't though 01:00:02 but changing the uname is 01:00:14 SYNOPSIS 01:00:14 #include 01:00:14 int personality(unsigned long persona); 01:00:16 yay 01:00:23 split personalities! 01:00:23 :D 01:00:24 Huh. 01:00:28 *shrug* 01:00:45 -!- oklokol has joined. 01:02:15 pikhq, linux32 is a symlink to setarch btw 01:02:40 http://rafb.net/p/N8i5es35.html 01:03:35 AnMaster: Shell script that calls setarch, you mean. 01:03:47 $ ls -l /usr/bin/linux32 01:03:47 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 1 dec 09.27 /usr/bin/linux32 -> setarch 01:03:49 ... 01:03:56 it detects what name it is invoked with 01:03:58 I assume 01:04:06 checking argv[0] 01:05:02 It *was* a shell script once. I'm sure of it. 01:05:13 once maybe 01:07:11 "To avoid performance problems you should keep the following guidelines in mind, which are separated by architecture: 01:07:11 IA-32, Intel® 64, and IA-64 architectures: 01:07:11 Do not access or create data at large intervals that are separated by exactly 2n (for example, 1 KB, 2 KB, 4 KB, 16 KB, 32 KB, 64 KB, 128 KB, 512 KB, 1 MB, 2 MB, 4 MB, 8 MB, etc.)." 01:07:13 huh? 01:07:15 why 01:07:37 why is accessing two structures separated by 1 KB of memory a bad idea exactly.. 01:08:03 that is from ICC docs 01:15:24 Um. What in the world does Intel's caching setup look like? 01:15:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:15:40 pikhq, my thought exactly 01:16:32 oh maybe that is used for associativity at L1? 01:16:37 or such 01:16:54 Maybe? 01:17:02 I guess I could see that making sense for L1. 01:17:35 I can understand some of the specific intervals... 01:17:42 yes for L1 it would, not for L2 though 01:17:43 Once you're dealing with page boundaries, that is. 01:17:58 pikhq, that only happens at 4 kB and above 01:18:32 pikhq, but a L1 wouldn't be 4KB 01:18:39 it would be much smaller 01:18:43 Yeah. 01:19:57 you are talking about a few cache lines 01:20:02 and cache lines are small 01:20:10 on AMD64 they are 64 bytes iirc 01:20:19 not sure how large they are on intel CPUs 01:25:57 AnMaster: Do not access or create data at large intervals that are separated by exactly 2n (for example, 1 KB, 2 KB, 4 KB, 16 KB, 32 KB, 64 KB, 128 KB, 512 KB, 1 MB, 2 MB, 4 MB, 8 MB, etc.)." <<< obviously those would all be in the same cache slot 01:26:15 that's like basic cacheology 01:26:58 cacheology :D 01:27:48 usually the actual "set" part of a cache is small 01:28:11 and you have multiple small sets hashed into based on the address 01:28:44 I understand how caching works less than I understand timecube 01:29:44 the basic idea is trivial 01:29:57 logically the cache should be a set 01:30:15 that it would just be a set of data currently in cache, and stuff would just either be in the set, or not be 01:30:20 but in practise, this is not doable 01:31:28 so what you do is first take certain index bits from the address (you can use any hash, but clearly it can't take much time to compute, because the idea is to save time) and that address gives you a set to use 01:31:37 and that set will be fully random access 01:31:41 well 01:32:11 dunno if that cleared it up, point is what AnMaster said seems kinda trivial, no reason to question intel's caches because of it. 01:32:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:34:29 i guess the basic idea of timecube is trivial too, the 24h day can be split into 4 pieces. 01:34:49 or maybe that was not the most important part, dunno. 01:35:11 oklokol, yes I know how a cache works 01:35:13 but still 01:35:14 night 01:35:18 err 01:35:26 okay, then why the confusion? 01:36:30 i'll just assume you didn't know, i'll feel intelligent and you don't need to answer :) 01:37:04 I don't pretend to know anything about how CPUs are actually implemented. 01:37:23 My knowledge stops a bit before assembly gets converted to bytes. 01:37:32 oklokol, I think there are better ways to do it. 01:37:34 Clearly 01:37:43 AnMaster: like what? 01:38:40 AnMaster: and i mean that as a question, all i know about caches is a few slides for a processor architecture course. 01:38:48 oklokol, even if you exclude the clear way of making all RAM register file speed (which has a downside in the form of the cost) it would be trivial to base it on a bit more than just least significant bits of the address 01:38:55 (not really the main topic obviously) 01:39:05 you could take a bit or two from higher up 01:39:08 for example 01:39:13 as well as the LSB 01:39:23 err 01:39:47 the lsb'er bits you take the better 01:40:07 oklokol, since many common access patterns have a 2^n unit stride. 01:40:10 taking a few from higher up wouldn't change the current issue, but overall it would be a worse solution 01:40:40 ... 01:40:47 how would it not for 2^n 01:40:58 err 01:41:03 the bits would be the same? 01:41:15 not if you take the right ones due 01:41:19 duh* 01:41:25 I'm not saying MSB 01:41:25 ... 01:41:37 you take the lsb'est bits you can, usually 01:41:52 but rather a few bits above, like the ones important for a common stride of 4 kb 01:41:55 from that to right is the address inside the block 01:42:02 you very often operate at two pages 01:42:07 equally from the start of both 01:42:24 that is in fact very very common 01:42:46 err... 01:43:02 so you're basically saying caches shouldn't have the basic block structure at all? 01:43:15 that you store stuff in blocks of size 2^n 01:43:35 wut 01:43:37 no 01:44:08 anyway, that's what the set part of the cache is for, that you can do something like that 01:44:17 I'm just saying having same associativity for the first cacheline of any two different pages is rather bad 01:44:42 right, and as a correction you suggest what? 01:44:48 taking a few bits from MSB? 01:44:53 *onward 01:45:17 well possibly a different scheme 01:45:37 lets do unary xor on the address. intercal style 01:45:44 then take lsb from that 01:46:04 or whatever 01:46:20 or wut. usually the idea is when you have an address TT..TII..IBB..B, the II..I part is used as the hash, to determine the set, then TT..T is used to find the correct slot in the set, or to see it's not there, then BB..B is used to address within the block. 01:46:26 *-or wut. 01:46:27 :) 01:46:45 oklokol, yes 01:46:46 but 01:47:03 AnMaster: anyway it's true it might make sense to use a more random hash, that i'm not disagreeing with. 01:47:06 how often have you not done memcpy between two page aligned adresses. 01:47:09 and such 01:47:13 that is very common 01:47:28 sure, but that's not a problem. 01:47:34 problem is the striding 01:48:39 i mean there aren't going to be conflicts if you just use a few pages of stuff and you need to use the same part of each page at a time 01:48:51 oh? 01:49:21 the problem is when you have many pages, and use the same part of each 01:49:31 even if you don't actually explore the other parts of the page 01:49:33 *pages 01:49:34 oklokol, what about array[1024][1024] 01:49:42 you are going into issues there 01:49:45 AnMaster: things like that compilers can optimize. 01:50:17 oklokol, I'm doing random-connected access in it though 01:50:19 as in funge 01:50:28 traveling up/down/left/right 01:50:37 hmm. 01:50:42 okay good point 01:50:58 oklokol, I need power of two for fast range checks (bit shift) 01:51:00 that may actually be a weak spot. 01:51:20 usually you just stride one way at a time 01:51:26 oklokol, I also need power of two for various other reasons 01:51:30 but funges can have local patterns of both kind 01:52:00 well anyway, i don't claim to have given this stuff any thought, and i most certainly don't know anything about it :) 01:52:05 total size needs to be a multiple of 64 bytes for exampl 01:52:08 example* 01:52:14 for various reasons. 01:53:53 also i'm not exactly that interested in computer architecture in general, kind of an inexact science 01:54:00 well okay, very inexact 01:57:26 wtf is it 4am :D 01:58:00 night 01:58:06 i remember deciding to go to sleep at 23:00 01:58:08 night 01:58:13 i'll try summa dat too -> 01:59:13 -!- serbz has joined. 01:59:16 -!- serbz has left (?). 03:14:47 Is there a way, given discrete points that have connections north, south, east, and west to other discrete points, and each point knows only of itself and its direct neighbors, to make sure that the whole structure makes sense? 03:17:20 what? :) 03:17:24 do they know the distances between them? 03:17:40 what does that mean makes sense 03:18:31 i assume he means that they can be put as coordinates on a flat map... 03:19:33 The distance between a point and its neighbor is one 03:19:38 aha 03:19:40 err 03:19:44 okay right 03:19:49 oerjan, yes 03:20:18 Sgeo: just plot them into an array 03:20:29 in that case it should be simple: pick a point, give it coordinates (0,0), trace through the whole structure assigning coordinates, and checking that any point you revisit matches 03:20:54 I want points to be able to add themselves to the structure just knowing one other point 03:21:06 ah 03:21:17 each point needs to know its coordinate of course 03:21:41 Sgeo: it may have to traverse an arbitrary amount of links to know whether a square is free 03:21:41 the only remaining problem i see is if two points get the same coordinates 03:21:56 which is equivalent to what oklopol said 03:22:35 yeah, and also to find its _other_ new neighbors 03:22:52 say if (0,0) and (0,2) already exist and you add (0,1) from (0,0) 03:23:07 yarr. 03:23:12 then it could require a long path to check that you need to connect to (0,2) as well 03:23:30 so basically there's no local way to do it, i guess that was the question 03:23:39 as it is algorithmically trivial otherwise 03:23:54 mhm 03:24:06 kinda like your mom 03:25:36 so, anyone know a good chess ai library? 03:25:38 so you are going to need some overarching structure. 03:26:00 huhhhhhh? 03:26:15 ty 03:26:22 each point is a square inside a 2x2 square inside a 4x4 square etc. until whatever fills all of it 03:26:23 you mean like, if you only add next to existing nodes, oerjan? 03:26:28 hmm 03:26:32 ohh 03:26:40 right, different issue 03:26:50 then you should need only O(log n) time to fix things 03:27:12 also, i don't know anything about chess ai libraries 03:27:26 oerjan: also he could just have the NxN array.................. 03:27:37 for you know O(1). 03:27:46 then again i guess that was specifically forbidden 03:27:50 yeah but that could require much more memory 03:27:51 kinda like your mom. 03:28:07 welllll i guess, but the distances were one 03:28:10 a hierarchical structure should only have logarithmic overhead 03:28:12 so maybe less than you'd think? 03:28:25 algorithmically less i think. 03:28:42 while an array might need n^2 for n points 03:29:12 and also, may need to extend the array by copying 03:29:26 which is amortized O(1) 03:29:34 Waiving the requirement for it to make sense might be more fun, actually 03:29:35 >.> 03:29:37 amortized? 03:29:44 Sgeo: like killed 03:30:15 no, i don't think it's O(1) because adding 1 cell can add an entire new row and column, every time 03:30:25 Sgeo: wait sorry also i could actually tell you. 03:30:30 *nearly every time 03:30:42 or, rather, *row _or_ column 03:31:23 Sgeo: the meaning is somewhat as follows, amortized O(f(n)) means on average the function takes O(f(n)) steps 03:31:39 but only somewhat, the actual definition i cannot really explain in human terms atm 03:32:01 Sgeo: amortized O(1) space means it could allocate in large blocks, but would still only allocate one new cell per step on average 03:32:29 What's non-amortized? 03:32:43 oerjan: i think it's O(1) if you make the whole thingie double as big when you need one more in size 03:32:47 non-amortized would be an upper bound for every single step 03:33:19 oklopol: nope, a zig-zag diagonal pattern grows by n cells every step on average, no matter how you do it 03:33:25 (with an array) 03:34:02 oerjan: i guess that's somewhat true. 03:35:22 i mean, there's a subtle hint of truth in it. 03:37:00 Sgeo: actual definition of amortized cost of O(f(n)) is if you do n operations, you will not have done more stuff than a non-amortized O(f(n)) function would've done for the same n operations. 03:37:02 i think. 03:37:16 Sgeo: for example a good garbage collection algorithm should use time at most O(allocated space), but if it's not very good at being incremental it can still cause a large pause. so amortized time is good, but may still be too much non-amortized for real-time purposes. 03:37:44 *a large pause at a single allocation 03:39:13 this channel is too small for the two of us, it sometimes feels. 03:39:18 hmm 03:39:22 maybe it's the large font 03:39:49 i should probably make it smaller, it's like size 18 because i used to use this computer laying on my armchair 03:39:52 oklopol: i just thought that if we both explain it, it will be easier to understand 03:39:59 which is more like a leathery bed than a chair 03:40:07 oerjan: ah, yes probably :P 03:40:12 twice as easy! 03:41:22 courier 10 point, here 03:42:10 actually was just 16, but still pretty massive, especially as this is a tiny screen 03:42:12 i don't think i've changed it 03:42:44 i usually just change to courier, size doesn't matter 03:43:13 i maximized window height though 03:43:42 what's a window height 03:43:54 top to bottom? 03:43:56 you mean you double clicked it so it's fullscreen? 03:43:59 no 03:44:14 top to bottom and size doesn't matter... where are all the penis jokes 03:44:15 i like to be able to see at least two windows at a time 03:44:57 maybe we have grown up 03:45:44 let's /part this place and go eat some cod 03:46:08 the timing is somewhat wrong for getting cod here 03:47:11 maybe i should go to a fish restaurant tomorrow, except the only one i know of has just gone bankrupt 03:47:12 how so 03:47:21 it's the middle of the night 03:47:24 what's wrong with your town 03:47:53 also, this is not that close to the center, i would need a taxi 03:48:12 and err 03:48:38 i was supposed to say something clever about you know one place burning and another going bankrupt, but then i lost my brain of thought. 03:48:38 i'm sure i could get some food at 7/eleven if i did so, but i doubt they have cod :D 03:48:45 ah yes 03:48:49 7/11? 03:49:05 the bankruptcy is probably due to the crisis 03:49:14 the fires are a more long-term problem 03:49:19 some everywhereable fast food restaurant? 03:49:24 the crisis? 03:49:47 financial crisis. if you read or watched news you might have heard about it 03:49:53 oh, right 03:50:00 well sure i have, but i didn't know it actually existed 03:50:38 hasn't hit norway hardest, but i still notice an unusual number of abandoned store fronts 03:51:27 i vaguely recall not finding 7/11 listed in finland when i checked 03:51:32 continuing my earlier message - got distracted - i just assumed mankind was having their period or something 03:51:47 and no we don't have 711' 03:51:47 s 03:52:16 in norway at least, they are about the only thing with a 24 hour open policy 03:52:26 and we don't have a financial crisis either. at least i don't. i don't believe in that sort of nonsense 03:53:54 we have tons of things with a 24hop 03:54:14 but they just serve food, no cod 03:54:26 i don't quite recall the english word for such small shops 03:54:47 they sell mostly snacks, some other food 03:55:02 snackittle. 03:55:16 i - don't recall hearing that word 03:55:32 Å RLY? 03:58:56 i don't know the exact opening hour laws in norway, they seem to get gradually relaxed most of the time 03:59:33 they are stricter for big shops, and for anyone selling alcohol 04:00:01 while small shops selling mainly food can be open at any time 04:00:35 how about shops that just buy alcohol? 04:01:00 i'll try and remember if i see any :D 04:01:52 "hello do you buy alcohol here?" 04:02:09 In the US, 7/11 is just one of many places that are open 24/7... 04:02:30 i suppose their main problem would be that only a few people could legally sell to them :D 04:02:35 Freaking Walmart tends to be open 24/7. Y'know, that land of everything that's cheap crap. 04:03:07 pikhq: i love your country :| 04:03:13 * oklopol licks us 04:03:47 big stores must be closed at least on sundays here 04:04:20 And, since it's the US, it's got more parking lot than building. 04:04:25 oerjan: maybe people can sell alcohol in stores that can themselves sell alcohol, you know, if it's like an area of effect thing. 04:05:18 pikhq: well, i like throwing balls on parking lots 04:05:49 well, i mean those indoors ones. 04:06:22 trondheim does have some mall-like places with lots of parking in the city outskirts. (as well as some smaller ones with no parking in the centre.) 04:07:02 (ok not _entirely_ no parking, but still...) 04:07:46 Mall? No, just a department store. 04:07:51 One that's larger than most malls. 04:07:59 i'm not quite sure on the distinction 04:08:09 mall = many-in-one? 04:08:14 Yeah. 04:08:23 you know like a minitown. 04:08:30 there are department stores too, like Ikea 04:08:48 er, if that word means what i think 04:09:01 it does if it means what i think. 04:09:13 who knows what that is. 04:09:24 google, probably 04:09:42 google definitely doesn't know what i think it is 04:09:57 ...or does it :| 04:10:16 Do you know what you think it is? 04:10:22 Walmarts tend to have about 10,000 square meters of floor space. 04:10:31 MizardX: no not really. 04:11:26 now if i had a sense of size, i might be able to tell how big 10,000 square meters is, but i don't. 04:11:36 oerjan: take its square root 04:11:45 ooh, sneaky! 04:11:49 Oh, sorry, that's just a "Walmart Discount Store". Most of them are Walmart Supercenters, which average *18,000* square meters of floor space... 04:12:00 Those also contain a full supermarket. 04:12:04 now i just need to know how long 100 meters are. whoops. 04:12:26 ... Ikea-size? 04:13:54 oerjan: like three blue whales 04:14:58 ic 04:15:22 i wish i was a blue whale 04:15:37 i'd be so big and i could go so deep you know. 04:15:39 i see Obs! listed under wp's hypermarket article, that's the closest such place from here 04:16:19 -!- coppro has joined. 04:18:18 * oerjan yawns 04:19:24 * pikhq observes that those appear more akin to malls... 04:20:25 what, hypermarkets? 04:21:20 Obs! in specific. 04:22:06 Oh, Wikipedia's being dumb. 04:22:11 they have sort of grown, the one close to here was expanded a lot and now includes many shops besides the main Coop Obs! chain 04:22:16 It shows links to malls *containing* an Obs!. 04:22:36 yeah 04:22:49 i guess that's what they are 04:23:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Syd Take a floor of that. That's a small Walmart store. 04:23:39 I'm talking about City Lade btw, didn't know it had its own article 04:23:47 and City Syd is at the other end of town 04:23:59 Hmm. 04:24:18 http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1604 04:24:19 (the first one is within walking distance from where i live) 04:25:38 afk 04:26:43 -!- pikhq has quit ("Off I go to the non-Internet."). 04:30:00 They're noodles! You don't compress and encrypt them, you eat them! 04:44:12 http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1653 04:44:35 "The cardinality of the set of counties we're banned from is greater than the cardinality of the set of counties" 04:45:23 looks too much like CVS 04:46:09 What? 04:47:14 http://www.circleversussquare..com 04:48:33 s/\.\././ 04:49:21 you mean, CVS looks too much like T&R. 04:53:29 probably 04:53:36 but there's no dates on T&R so I can't tell 04:53:50 also I read CVS first, so it wins 04:53:51 :P 04:55:04 basically, i read T&R a year ago, so it's at least that old 04:56:09 "Triangle and Robert is a webcomic by Patrick Shaughnessy that ran from August 1999 to September 2007." 04:56:18 (wp) 04:58:05 "Triangle and Robert won Best Minimalist Comic in the 2001 Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards. 04:58:51 ah 05:09:39 "We need wackiness." "Robert, we're already designing a system to launch HAM into ORBIT with a RAILGUN." 05:11:53 "We need a heat-resistant ham glaze, not the destruction of a six-mile radius." "It was not a radius. The damage was limited to a single twelve-mile line segment." "What's this now? I just meant in general." "Then mind not." 05:21:34 http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1783 has a bit of an overview (spoilers, obviously) 05:23:40 Well, not really 05:29:02 "Oh, we're escaping? How do I help?" "We're escaping FROM you." 05:39:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:40:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:47:59 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:30:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:23:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:50:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:58:04 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:58:20 -!- olsner has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:32 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:17:41 -!- tombom has joined. 09:25:38 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 10:49:54 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 10:52:36 -!- neldoreth has joined. 11:00:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!"). 12:31:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:48:25 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:10:47 -!- FireyFly has joined. 13:21:00 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 13:47:04 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 14:25:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:47:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:51:51 16:28:26 many people have alias rm = rm -I 14:51:53 [ehird:~] % rm -rf * 14:51:53 zsh: sure you want to delete all the files in /Users/ehird [yn]? 14:52:28 zsh has a builtin version of the alias? 14:52:38 ais523: it just specialcases *, i think 14:52:56 16:34:38 on a disk that large, you'll have to spend days fscking if you have a power cut 14:52:56 16:34:44 if you don't have journaling 14:53:03 fsck takes days anyway when ubuntu decides to run it because WHY NOT 14:53:25 16:35:09 Why I have losslessly compressed copies of Big Buck Bunny & Elephants Dream, I'm not quite sure. 14:53:26 I love the arguments that the makers of one particular version of rm went to to try to prove it was UNIX-compliant 14:53:33 they wanted to specially handle rm -rf / 14:53:36 pikhq: here, have a 200gb uncompressed movie: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/wiki/index.php?title=SitaSites 14:53:59 in the end, they successfully argued that they were allowed to treat it differently because rm is allowed to treat . and .. differently, and rm -rf / necessarily deletes . 14:54:03 ais523: :-D 14:54:31 16:35:50 oh, yes, there are ext2 drivers for Windows, but not ext3 drivers 14:54:32 WRONG 14:54:37 (I think that argument might be slightly bogus; if you have two nested chroots, it's possible to be in a directory outside /) 14:54:45 http://www.fs-driver.org/ handles ext3 14:54:47 ehird: they have full ext3 drivers now, which work with journaling? 14:54:53 Linux Ext3 volumes can also be accessed. To do that, please read the FAQ section. 14:55:03 i guess it writes w/ only ext2 features 14:55:16 but the only use for those drivers is reading, really 14:55:24 "The Ext2 file system driver of the Ext2 IFS software will refuse mounting an Ext3 file system which contains data in its journal, just like older Linux kernels which have no Ext3 support. In this way data loss and damaging the file system is avoided when the journal is subsequently replayed. So you can access only those Ext3 volumes with the Ext2 IFS software which have been cleanly dismounted beforehand." 14:55:31 ah 14:55:38 it can only read an ext3 drive which happens to be instantaneously legal ext2 14:55:42 i.e. has an empty journal 14:55:52 I.e. it's essentially not ext3. :-P 14:55:53 is ext4's on-disk format stable? 14:55:58 There is a RM_STAR_SILENT option you can set for zsh to disable that speciality. 14:56:00 Yes. 14:56:01 i would assume so 14:56:04 since it's in the kernel 14:56:04 yes, I think so 14:56:10 It is. 14:56:18 Date resolutionNanosecond 14:56:21 — [[Ext4]] 14:56:24 now THAT'S excessive! 14:56:57 imagine a compile using make on a really fast computer 14:57:05 Btrfs is in the kernel and doesn't have a stable disk format. At least I think the kernel-config help said so. It was very much "I'm so experimental I will eat all your data *munch* *munch*" warningsy. 14:57:12 ais523: define really fast 14:57:26 fast enough that microsecond timestamps aren't good enough to see if something's been compiled or not 14:57:28 ehird: Fast enough that nanoseconds matter. 14:57:33 ah :-D 14:57:52 I can imagine compile steps happening in less than a microsecond 14:58:03 some of the make rules in the C-INTERCAL build are just symlinking 14:58:13 ais523: with a faster compiler than gcc you could prolly do it for a c project 14:58:16 just a very dumb compiler 14:58:25 and if you have an in-memory filesystem, I can imagine the creation of a symlink in less than a microsecond 14:58:28 could run more or less instantly 14:58:46 also, just use /tmp with tmpfs, nice and simple 14:58:49 oh, you'd need a fast make too 14:58:59 but I think you could do it, on really high end machines, today 14:59:28 Compiling two files in less than a microsecond? I doubt it. 14:59:52 the ext2 standard has a flag saying "don't try to mount as ext2" 15:00:07 I guess that's enabled for ext4. 15:00:14 15:00:26 [ 3.529311] EXT2-fs: sda3: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (40). 15:00:29 16:38:22 how can anyone be insane enough to use that yet for anything important... 15:00:30 #!/bin/cat at the top of a perl program 15:00:31 err 15:00:35 ext4's stable... 15:00:45 I have ext4 on / 15:00:55 This proposal was accepted, and on June 28, 2006 Theodore Ts'o, the ext3 maintainer, announced the new plan of development for ext4.[3] A preliminary development snapshot of ext4 was included in version 2.6.19 of the Linux kernel. On Oct 11, 2008, the patches that mark ext4 as stable code were merged in the Linux 2.6.28 source code repositories,[4] denoting the end of the development phase and recommending ext4 adoption. Kernel 2.6.28, containing the ext 15:00:57 4 filesystem, was finally released on December 25, 2008.[5] 15:01:04 Software-suspend used to have Very Big Warnings back when it was experimental, too. Nowadays there's just a rather sedate warning about not touching the filesystems between suspend and resume. 15:01:06 well, it's not surprising you couldn't mount it as ext3, if you have at least one extent on the system, and you probably do 15:01:31 I was just pondering that "don't try to mount as ext2" flag. 15:01:37 fizzie: does linux do hybrid suspend/hibernate? 15:01:41 put there for forwards compatibility, obviously 15:01:48 we turn all the fans off, go into suspendy mode, and gradually write it all to disk 15:01:53 then kill ourselves 15:01:56 os x does that, it works nicely 15:02:00 I was aware of that 15:02:05 some people like it, especially for a desktop 15:02:06 fast suspend/unsuspend with less power usage 15:02:08 The "s2both" does pretty much that. 15:02:10 ais523: Yes, but my dmesg indicates that it's either not set for ext4 or that the ext2 driver looks at something else before that flag. 15:02:20 16:39:09 coppro, the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext4 15:02:21 16:39:20 I'm going to stay to ext3 and xfs for the next few years. 15:02:23 * ehird LOL 15:02:26 Since it didn't say "couldn't mount because the flag says not to" 15:02:33 for a laptop you have the problem of lots of hard drive activity immediately after suspend 15:02:44 which is not good if you want to carry the laptop around and suspended it because of that 15:02:48 Or maybe that was the flag, the message just wasn't obvious about it. 15:03:01 I was really scared when I carried my laptop across campus in the middle of a distro upgrade 15:03:18 it was even fun when I REISUBed in the middle of the upgrade, due to a hardware problem 15:03:25 *even more fun 15:03:33 I have no idea how i'll install ubuntu with my really goddamn complex partition setup 15:03:35 I use s2ram nowadays with my desktop, since the boot-up from real hibernation is a bit on the slow side; I guess I could use s2both instead, but I'm not so very worried about a power-failure causing horrible complications. 15:03:48 Can you do partitioning in the livecd, and then just tell the installer "Um, just use this fstab"? 15:04:00 I'm not sure, quite possibly 15:04:10 you might need to use the alternate install disk, that lets you do all sorts of weird things 15:04:16 not a separate disk 15:04:20 I mean, the CD 15:04:21 just a different install option nowadays 15:04:27 there are two CDs to install from, the main one and the alternate one 15:04:30 hm 15:04:33 but 15:04:41 the alternate ones contain the stuff for doing weird stuff at installation, but fewer packages, IRC 15:04:41 the ubuntu livecd has an alt install option iirc 15:04:42 *IIRC 15:04:45 ah 15:04:47 I want full packages 15:04:53 you get them from the Internet later 15:04:55 they just aren't on the CD 15:04:57 :( 15:05:14 Does XFS still have that truly braindead kill-file-contents-on-crash misfeature? Does it get move-over-replacement right even w.r.t. system crashes? 15:05:29 ah, no, it's the same packages 15:05:34 it has a text-based installer rather than a graphical one 15:05:38 which can handle more weird cases 15:05:53 (the reason it's text-based is in case the installer can't get the graphics going without manual intervention, it seems) 15:05:56 ais523: it's just that my current planned setup is that /home is a unionfs where .anything goes to /aux/ehird/dotfiles and everything else is on the main HD, except /home/ehird/local is binded to /aux/ehird/local 15:06:02 not the simplest setup 15:06:08 Debian-installer lets one configure horribly complicated raid/LVM setups; but I've only installed Ubuntu long ago with a very standard "here, use this partition" fashion, so I don't know about the partitioning. 15:06:10 hmm 15:06:14 maybe /aux should be /var/home 15:06:18 in analogy to /var/tmp 15:06:36 if you're only messing inside /home, then couldn't you install, then mess with the fstab by hand afterwards 15:06:43 Unionfs is not in the mainline kernel, so configuring that "correctly" during the installation sounds tricky. But certainly you can mess it up later. 15:06:44 then delete all the old dotfiles? 15:06:50 wiping the dotfiles isn't a problem on a clean install 15:07:45 ais523: well, I suppose. I have other odd setup thingies though. 15:07:52 Like /tmp as tempfs. 15:07:59 * ais523 laughs at Wubi's advertising: 1. Select a new password. 2. Click install. 3. There is no three. 15:07:59 I'd rather get it right first time than clean it up later 15:08:04 ugh, Wubi 15:08:04 That's not too odd. 15:08:05 I hate Wubi 15:08:15 fizzie: ubuntu has unionfs 15:08:17 And /tmp is the one place you can safely clean up even post-installation. :p 15:08:19 I think Wubi's good for its target audience 15:08:22 but on the subject of Wubi 15:08:27 every time I turn someone to ubuntu 15:08:29 I guess the live-cd would, at the very least, yes. 15:08:35 I have to tell them to ignore the Ubuntu livecd windows-autostart 15:08:38 which advertises wubi 15:08:44 as "install without partitioning" or sth 15:08:55 then I get to explain why they shouldn't use it, etc etc etc 15:09:02 and it's a bloody load of fuss for an unuseful feature 15:09:03 They really should get union-mounting done properly; there's apparently been talk on doing it on the VFS level (like mount --bind is done), which (as far as I could figure out) was the reason aufs2 was very steadfastly rejected for kernel-inclusion. 15:10:00 the feature = almost impossible to get wrong even if you don't know what you're doing 15:10:06 I think good old Slackware, in ages past, had a "install into a file on a FAT filesystem, which is then loop-mounted as ext2" option. 15:10:10 What's Wubi do? 15:10:23 creates a subdirectory under C:\ that's the Ubuntu filesystem 15:10:23 fizzie: installs ubuntu by making the filesystem a folder in the ntfs windows partition 15:10:30 Right. 15:10:30 it's slow and ties you to windows. 15:10:34 and tells Windows it's a Windows application 15:10:39 ais523: so is the livecd installer, as far as impossible to get wrong goes 15:10:50 my instructions to the technically illiterate are "click next and read the text" 15:10:52 ehird: not so, you can accidentally wipe the Windows partition like that 15:10:55 Does it use separate files under NTFS, then? 15:11:04 fizzie: yes 15:11:06 you end up with an NTFS Ubuntu tree, I think 15:11:10 ais523: oh, in the most recent case it was a new laptop 15:11:12 Heh. Funny. 15:11:14 so Vista was unwanted 15:11:20 so the wiping was not a problem 15:11:23 oh, over here people generally dual-boot 15:11:26 and use both sides 15:11:42 mm 15:11:43 I've actually got relatively good at securing Vista 15:11:45 At least Slackware had a good excuse for using a loop-mounted ext2 image; can't see that thing working very well on a FAT filesystem. 15:11:54 as in, worse than people who know what they're doing, but better than people who don't 15:11:57 I think ubuntu fills all this guy's needs, prolly 15:12:10 ais523: what do people use the windows partition for? 15:12:16 games, I guess 15:12:19 games is one thing 15:12:27 also, it's used as a sandbox 15:12:34 in case the Linux side catches a virus 15:12:39 Wat 15:12:40 only the Linux side connects to the Internet 15:12:46 the Windows doesn't, because it's less secure 15:12:51 and all the important stuff's stored there 15:13:01 The mind boggles. 15:13:35 Out of curiosity... how does it do device files on an NTFS file system? (Although I guess it wouldn't really need to, much, with udev-handled tmpfs /dev. Still.) 15:13:44 ais523: so, no shitty university stuff that needs windows? 15:13:54 that's good, since he got it for going to uni with 15:14:50 We have around here a couple of horribly horrible administrative webblications that are strictly IE-only; but since most of the workstations around here are Linux systems, there's a Windows Terminal Server box you can "rdesktop" in to use those. 15:15:06 ies4linux 15:15:31 ehird: there isn't exactly 15:15:43 there's WebCT, which is truly awful, but it runs just as badly in Windows as it does in Linux 15:15:50 ais523: apart from the windows-based policy things? like antiviru 15:15:50 s 15:15:50 being a rather badly written webapp 15:16:01 ehird: they didn't say "windows-based", they just said antivirus 15:16:08 ais523: windows-based as in without thought of other OSes 15:16:15 all sane people will summarily ignore the clause, ofc 15:16:25 oh, I meet both the letter and the spirit of the rules 15:16:27 just different ways 15:30:31 "Frequent television portrayals of Christians as absurd make it more difficult for believers to defend themselves, a national journalist has said. " 15:30:31 http://www.christian.org.uk/news/20090420/tv-sends-message-that-christians-are-nutters/ 15:30:34 Bahahahahahahahaha 15:31:46 hahaha, another article on there: "BBC portrays pro-lifers as murderous terrorists" 15:32:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:34:02 Have you ever thought Tetris(R) was evil because it wouldn’t send you that straight “I” brick you needed in order to clear four rows at the same time? Well Tetris(R) probably isn’t evil, but Bastet certainly is. >:-) Bastet stands for “bastard tetris”, and is a simple ncurses-based Tetris(R) clone for Linux. Unlike normal Tetris(R), however, Bastet does not choose your next brick at random. Instead, Bastet uses a special algorithm designed to 15:34:05 choose the worst brick possible. As you can imagine, playing Bastet can be a very frustrating experience! — http://fph.altervista.org/prog/bastet.shtml 15:34:15 Ye olde 15:34:18 Also much fun 15:34:25 Ye olde, like your face. 15:34:26 I think my record is 3 lines 15:34:29 hahah 15:34:31 No, my face is older 15:34:44 EXACTLY. 15:35:05 http://iseverythingonlineyet.com/ 15:35:15 does it say yes or no? 15:35:16 :-) 15:35:29 ais523: it says more than either. 15:35:39 it has information, see. 15:35:44 sites used to do that 15:35:51 so it's retro now 15:36:00 it works fine in w3m. 15:36:07 It has a tag. 15:36:11 :D 15:36:13 I didn't notice 15:36:16 does that work in w3m, I wonder? 15:36:16 because my browser doesn't render them 15:36:20 ais523: nope 15:36:21 Neither does mine. 15:36:21 but it should 15:36:23 you can do it 15:36:25 I looked at the source, though. 15:36:26 ehird: isn't that standards-incompliant? 15:36:32 no 15:36:36 people are going to have to resort to javascript blink to be portable, now! 15:36:44 it's not incompliant 15:36:50 browsers can render elements however they want in html4 15:37:02 ah, I see 15:37:05 so they render blink as not blinking 15:37:09 right 15:37:22 someone should make a browser which renders everything except blink as blinking 15:37:25 ais523: how can you blink text-to-speech? 15:37:38 isn't HTML anyway. 15:37:44 "H l o o l !" 15:37:47 So you can do whatever you want with it. 15:37:51 Tru dat. 15:37:54 ehird: i DON'T see WHY that SHOULD not BE possible 15:38:02 :D 15:38:03 ehird: I've actually blinked speech before now 15:38:10 by putting a hand over my ear and moving it back and forth quickly 15:38:11 However, CSS has 'text-decoration: blink' 15:38:19 in a hubbub of lots of people talking, you hear random syllables 15:38:19 Which is actually valid CSS 2.1, not sure about 3 15:38:24 they don't make any sense, but it's kind-of soothing 15:38:33 I used to do that 15:38:35 But the UACG say that you're allowed to ignore it. 15:38:43 "Go read the comments, as usual they are the best part of Slashdot." ← HI 2005, HOW YOU DOING? 15:39:03 hi 15:39:15 the comments are the best part, though 15:39:18 AnMaster: you're 2005? figures 15:39:20 because reddit gets the articles first 15:39:24 and the summaries are awful 15:39:28 ehird, ? 15:39:34 15:38 ehird: "Go read the comments, as usual they are the best part of Slashdot." ← HI 2005, HOW YOU DOING? 15:39:34 15:39 AnMaster: hi 15:39:45 what 15:39:47 oh 15:39:51 It's a joke. 15:39:59 I just got back, rather tired. 16:04:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:13:41 err 16:13:47 for bastet, can't you change the keys 16:15:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:15:50 blah i'll just use some other computer 16:16:01 waat 16:16:02 wat 16:17:36 ehird: how did your Enigma 1.1ing go? 16:17:42 ais523: didn't fix it. 16:17:47 ah, pity 16:17:47 why isn't there a binary ;_; 16:17:53 because it's still alpha 16:17:57 and they don't build nightlies 16:18:05 Foo 16:18:14 wat wat? 16:18:19 I went and translated a puzzle from Agora-Enigma into computer-game-Enigma 16:19:15 agorigma 16:20:44 0% [Waiting for headers] 16:20:48 ais523: fix this shit. 16:20:51 stupid servers 16:24:32 okay bastet is awesome :D 16:24:48 It is 16:27:31 6 lines. 16:27:39 (level 0 :D) 16:27:40 Hmm, wtf @ version 0.43 16:27:45 It's much easier 16:28:05 I wonder which version I've played 16:28:10 0.43 of what? 16:28:15 bastet 16:28:47 0.37 at least is a pain-in-the-ass version 16:28:51 [[A wise man once said : "in order to understand recursion, you must first understand recrusion". ]] 16:28:53 — reddit 16:28:55 Where it's hard to get even one line 16:29:00 And to understand recrusion, ... 16:29:07 ehird: I've seen that quote in lots of places before 16:29:08 besides, it's false 16:29:11 ais523: look carefully 16:29:16 oh, the typo? 16:29:28 0.41 also 16:29:33 i have windows version 16:29:36 ...which ruins the joke, but can be used to make it into a joke about mutual recursion 16:29:41 so 41 16:30:41 anyway seems level is just speed 16:30:51 Yep, as traditional 16:31:14 yes, but it's a bit annoying you can't slide things under others after they hit ground, on level 9, by just holding the key 16:31:41 4 lines, darn 16:31:56 is this a tetris clone? 16:32:50 more like evil twin 16:32:51 ais523: it uses an algorithm 16:32:55 to pick the worst piece possible 16:32:59 ah 16:33:01 thus, bastard-tetris 16:33:15 0.43 makes me feel like I'm just getting really unlucky with the RNG 16:33:27 Not very bastardy 16:34:00 Occasionally it gives me exactly the piece I want 16:34:26 43 is supposedly even harder 16:34:31 i mean 16:34:33 according to page 16:34:39 I saw 16:34:43 I'm at 7 lines 16:34:45 And half way filled 16:35:31 (Playing the harder version, of course) 16:36:34 Hmmh, messed up a bit, ended with 9 lines 16:37:01 xD 16:37:03 0 lines 16:37:03 Anyway, with 0.41 I typically get my first line when I've filled half the screen or so 16:37:12 Yes, or even 0 lines 16:37:28 With 0.43 I can consistently get a line before I've got even 10 blocks 16:39:09 0 again. 16:39:14 but i was really unlucky! :D 16:39:31 No, you just weren't clever ;-P 16:39:38 I think the only random thing is the first piece 16:39:39 nooooooooooooooooooooooo 16:39:43 nope 16:39:49 read page 16:39:52 Or no, of course if multiple pieces have the same probability 16:40:01 no... read page :P 16:40:07 Unlike normal Tetris(R), however, Bastet does not choose your next brick at random. Instead, it uses a special algorithm designed to choose the worst brick possible. 16:40:22 what version is xorg 1.6? 16:40:28 compatible to 16:40:32 1.6 16:40:50 oklokol: So... what exactly should I read 16:40:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:41:08 I have 1.3, 1.4, 1.4.99, 1.5, 6.7, 6.8, 6.8.99, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.1.99, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4 as options 16:41:22 so which would that be for xorg 1.6? I'm puzzled by 7.x, this xorg is recent? 16:41:50 FWIW I have 1.6.1 and 7.4 16:42:05 ah 16:42:05 I guess 16:42:06 yay! 16:42:08 so it's 7.4? 16:42:09 wow 16:42:11 I just did Test of Dexterity 16:42:12 i got two lines! :D 16:42:14 i mean 16:42:15 at once! 16:42:20 Deewiant: err 16:42:20 Wow 16:42:32 read linux source and umm 0.41 16:42:39 o 16:42:55 Oh yeah, true 16:43:19 Should just be 100,100,100,100... 16:43:41 but it sure as hell doesn't seem that way, i just got like 7 2x2's in a row, anything else would've done the trick. 16:44:13 also it's hard to lose the tetris reflexes, "i'll just put this here and wait for a 4x1" 16:44:19 :-) 16:44:35 You have to intentionally mess up to confuse it, I find 16:45:30 isn't 7 2x2s enough ot make a row? 16:45:32 *to 16:45:44 Well, if you put them sideways it is 16:45:51 Of course it wouldn't have given you the last one if you had :-P 16:45:53 ais523: yes, unless your keeping the hole open just in case... 16:48:16 *you're 16:48:19 AMBER ALERT 16:48:25 :| 16:48:26 oklokol YOUR/YOU'RE ERROR 16:48:26 BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 16:48:45 GOLD WITH PINK SPOTS ALERT 16:51:00 Deewiant: 10 lines. 16:51:08 You win 16:51:15 506 points, why the 6? :| 16:51:20 I haven't played that much :-P 16:51:31 i've played ~10 games 16:51:38 but level 0 speeders 16:52:00 I've played ~10 games altogether also 16:52:23 then it's probably more about luck, most of my attempts were zeroes, and i started with a 6. 16:52:25 I can't remember my old records but I think they didn't go up to 10, might have exceeded 5 16:52:37 well not most 16:52:40 but manyst. 16:54:38 Deewiant: fuck you now X won't start :| 16:54:41 wrong abi shizzle 16:55:02 why are configurations in source, i'm not gonna compile this to try a deterministic game. 16:55:37 ehird: extra/xorg-server 1.6.1-1; extra/xorg-server-utils 7.4-4 16:55:41 WFM 16:55:43 PEBKAC 16:55:46 KTHXBYE 16:55:47 well. computer probably always wins, in tetris. 16:55:51 your mom 16:56:11 (thinking of it as a 2 player game, computer being the one choosing pieces) 16:56:18 Deewiant: how can I finds out my servers versions 16:56:21 how well would an AI do at playing bastet? 16:56:32 ais523: that's essentially what i'm wondering. 16:56:36 well 16:56:48 ehird: X -version 16:56:59 make an evolutionary Befunge-93 program to test it out 16:57:05 Deewiant: that doesn't tell me the 7.butt thing 16:57:14 ehird: What is the 7.butt thing anyway 16:57:29 It's not the server version, it's something else 16:57:31 oerjan: what'a tetris's complexity? 16:57:35 Deewiant: "xorg-server-utils" apparently. 16:57:58 ehird: I think it's just a sort of package version number for all their crap 16:58:01 ehird: http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4 16:58:17 I don't know how to find out what version I have! 16:58:19 *you're 16:58:29 ehird: There is no such version. 16:58:36 what 16:58:40 I.e. no single program has such a version. 16:58:44 Or that's what it seems like to me. 16:58:56 Looking at http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4. 16:58:56 I dont' care about program 16:59:04 I just want to know what 7.butt I have, I guess apt knows 16:59:21 If your stuff is from a package manager then yes, of course ask the package manager and not me 16:59:28 7.4, apparently. 16:59:29 wtf. 16:59:35 Must be kernel issues. it mentioned ABI 16:59:40 ehird: http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4 is 1.5.1. 16:59:49 huh. 17:01:40 The Xorg releases are versioned, but each release is just a bundle of packages. The packages each have their own versioning scheme, so it's entirely likely that a "7.x" version a package manager reports to you is nigh-on meaningless. 17:01:53 That's what I inferred. 17:02:03 GregorR: Well, this installer likes to know. 17:02:10 Installer? 17:02:17 Yes. 17:02:18 Deewiant: Human being who installs stuff :P 17:02:25 Parallels VM tools thing. 17:02:25 Aha. 17:02:30 Aha. 17:02:33 So I cans get my compiz's on my VM's. 17:02:34 OH, an actual package installer. 17:02:37 Well that's E_LAME 17:02:40 Yes. 17:02:42 Compiz is E_LAME. 17:02:43 It also has 1.x versions. 17:02:46 But only up to 1.5. 17:02:52 So how about 1.5?! 17:02:54 Deewiant: It makes the windows marginally less ugly. I like shadows. 17:02:58 And cuz I have 1.6 17:02:59 :P 17:04:28 I'll try the 1.5 thang tho. 17:05:07 module ABI major version (4) doesn't match the server's version (5) 17:05:09 module ABI major version (2) doesn't match the server's version (5) 17:05:13 Deewiant: so 1.5 prolly won't work. 17:05:49 Just hexedit it and change the ABI version 8-D 17:05:55 8-D 8-D 17:05:59 GregorR: that so wouldn't work 17:06:03 ais523: NORLY 17:06:36 Change both to 6 17:06:41 Er, all three, that is 17:06:56 Deewiant: How, I'm on a binary distro. 17:07:11 ehird: HEX EDIT 17:07:21 :D 17:07:28 sed -i s/[0-9]/6/g 17:07:34 Right?! 17:07:54 Run it on every binary that matches the glob *[xX]* just in case 17:08:03 Good idea 17:08:12 wait 17:08:17 Deewiant: it stores the abi version as a string? 17:08:22 using the decimal digits? 17:08:23 :-D 17:08:36 Of course, how else? 17:08:38 in case they overflow int or sth? 17:08:51 All ints are stored as text, duh? 17:09:28 How else could the computer read them? 17:09:34 Ohhhhhhhhh. 17:14:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:16:32 oklokol: i don't remember tetris' complexity but iirc i have read that you cannot win against a stream of equal zigzag pieces 17:17:50 Yes, but that is quite unlikely 17:18:18 oerjan: what, really? 17:18:25 you could put them each standing upright 17:18:28 I demand proof 17:18:30 that gives you a row in the centre out of three 17:18:38 then the next row standing upright nets you two lines 17:18:41 ais523 : That leaves you holes 17:18:43 and likewise for all futue 17:18:56 that leaves holes in the bottom row, but you keep on getting lines 2 and 3 ad infinitum 17:18:58 Eventually they'll accumulates 17:18:59 and it never grows any higher 17:19:28 ais523: what if there's an odd amount of columns? 17:19:35 Quick, somebody code a version of tetris that only gives a Z and test it out! 17:19:37 hm maybe 17:19:40 ah, it probably doesn't work then 17:19:42 Use VB to make a GUI interface 17:19:48 noooo 17:19:54 if anything, I'd modify quinquis 17:20:02 even though I'd have to find a 16-bit DOS compiler from somewhere 17:20:11 quinquis is a tetris clone using pentominoes I wrote years ago 17:20:12 for DOS 17:20:21 ais523: You have to use VB to make a GUI interface. How else will you track an IP? 17:20:26 *trace 17:20:29 traceroute? 17:20:32 * ais523 deliberately misses the point 17:20:40 That's not a GUI interface! 17:20:55 Traceroute has no GUI, therefore it cannot trace an IP. 17:21:18 * ais523 System | Administration | Network Tools | Traceroute 17:21:32 Bah. 17:22:17 ais523: is it written in visual basic? 17:22:20 no? 17:22:39 I don't know, do you want me to apt-get source it and look? 17:22:46 ais523: hmph, you are right, it must have been more complicated 17:23:04 in theory it could be written in Mono 17:23:11 except I think I don't have Mono installed here atm 17:23:30 you do 17:23:33 gnome ships with it 17:23:36 well, depends on it 17:23:38 for Tomboy 17:23:49 ah, yes, I have tomboy, therefore at least bits of mono 17:23:58 I know that the Jaunty update uninstalled most of it though as an unused dependency 17:24:05 so I probably only have bits of the core, rather than all the libraries 17:24:34 oerjan: you checked both odd and even? 17:25:08 ais523: ah, http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/java/tetris/explanation.html 17:25:10 for even it would clearly work, consider a 2-column game 17:25:22 oklokol: i only cared about normal size 17:25:26 err 17:25:36 oklokol: :-D 17:25:37 i mean think about it 17:25:41 and that link should work 17:25:46 and you'll realize it works for all sizes 2n. 17:25:51 trivially 17:25:53 "However, it might be theoretically possible to create a perfect computer Tetris player which could successfully play Tetris until its plug was pulled. The arguments presented on this page prove that that is impossible." 17:25:56 oh, alternating Z and S 17:25:58 It might be possible. It's not possible. 17:26:16 my proof that all-Z isn't lethal brakes down if they alternate 17:26:19 Alternating is impossible, of course. 17:26:50 Or hmm, I guess that works for even columns also? 17:26:55 besides, I've won Tetris before 17:27:11 oerjan: you checked odd too? 17:27:20 the gameboy version had a victory condition 17:27:34 Yep, it rocked 17:27:50 I got gameboy tetris free with a bank account 17:27:53 It had the rocket liftoff 17:27:55 oklokol: it's my proof 17:27:58 *not 17:28:00 i have one that plays a cool victory tune when you reach 10000 points, takes about 2 hours, i remember getting to 3h or something 17:28:19 19:22… oerjan: ais523: hmph, you are right, it must have been more complicated 17:28:21 that was. 17:30:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 17:31:48 :o 17:31:56 a simple yes or no would've sufficed. 17:32:18 i'm gonna guess "i don't remember, i was too drunk" 17:34:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:40:07 Damn you, ais523 17:40:11 why? 17:40:12 * Deewiant has played http://www.youtuberepeat.com/watch/?v=zXeCEzaNLKM for over 10 minutes now 17:40:16 that's pretty nasty of you ,take it back! 17:40:34 Okay, I do, this music is pretty cool actually, hehe 17:41:53 ais523: there are far worse insults. 17:42:00 'damn you' is... pretty tame. 17:42:07 not really, it has nasty religious overtones 17:42:20 Eh, religious people say damn you all the time. 17:42:23 There's plenty of history to anything. 17:42:33 it's expressing a preference for the worst possible thing (by definition) to happen to someone 17:42:45 if you're unreligious, you believe that that's impossible, but you still know what the insult means 17:42:48 So "fuck you" should be taken as a compliment? 17:43:04 I never really understood why "fuck you" was an insult 17:51:47 "The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled " 17:52:02 it's like something alesteir crowley [sp] would write. 17:52:11 *aleister 18:03:57 ais523: because masturbation is pathetic? 18:04:06 maybe 18:04:54 also umm, this code here, it can set the value of a pointer in two ways, one is to use main's argument, other is to make an array in an if block, and assign the pointer to it. 18:05:19 isn't that a trivial C error? 18:08:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:08:43 how is the array made? 18:08:47 automatic storage duration? 18:08:53 if so, you can't use the pointer outside the block 18:09:45 char myname[256]; 18:12:59 ais523, C question. Is return stack->entries[--stack->top]; well defined? 18:13:10 as far as I can tell it does what I intended. 18:13:23 no, it isn't 18:13:32 ais523, details please. 18:13:38 sorry brb phone... 18:13:38 there's no guarantee as to whether the first stack will return the decremented or original version 18:13:53 err 18:14:05 AnMaster: isn't C like your primary language? 18:14:14 is this suck-at-c day 18:14:17 :D 18:14:34 * oklokol is annoyed at lecturers insisting on C if they can't get it right 18:15:32 ais523: That decrements stack->top and accesses stack->entries so no problems? 18:15:42 hmm 18:15:54 so precedence issue 18:15:56 Deewiant: is that (--stack)->top or --(stack->top)? 18:15:58 i never get those right 18:16:02 I think it's the first, but I'm not sure 18:16:06 unary over binary, isn't it? 18:16:08 ais523: I'm quite sure it's the latter 18:16:14 maybe not 18:16:21 actually yeah probably for those . and -> things it's like that 18:16:35 prefix decrement has lower precedence than -> 18:16:46 err right 18:16:48 According to http://www.difranco.net/cop2220/op-prec.htm at least 18:16:52 -> and . of course have the highest 18:17:10 Postfix -- has the same precedence as ->, though 18:17:22 But it's left-to-right so I guess it doesn't matter 18:19:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:21:42 there's no guarantee as to whether the first stack will return the decremented or original version <-- um? Why not 18:22:04 AnMaster: Keep reading 18:22:12 ah right 18:22:34 Short answer: it is well defined. 18:22:38 so -- operates on the value of top then. Good. 18:23:26 even shorter would be "yes" 18:23:30 so i win again. 18:23:41 "ye" 18:23:49 1 18:23:51 darn! 18:23:53 18:24:05 Deewiant, since when is a space shorter than 1? 18:24:16 i tried not to say anything at all, but i'm not sure you would've noticed it. 18:24:22 well 18:24:23 and in what language is a space == true 18:24:24 to say nothing 18:24:37 AnMaster: Space is 0x20, 1 is 0x31 18:24:37 AnMaster: in many 18:24:41 So space < 1 18:24:44 i'd say most 18:24:49 And don't you know that silence is acceptance? 18:25:03 Anyway, gone -> 18:25:11 Deewiant, *shorter* not "lower value" 18:25:25 both are 1 byte 18:25:56 feels a bit shorter to me 18:26:12 i mean 18:26:14 err 18:26:29 you know the part containing the ones is shorter. 18:26:33 that's the relevant part 18:27:39 maybe i should go too! -> 18:28:22 also i could close the repeating tetris music at some point. 18:37:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 18:38:04 AnMaster: As unary it's shorter 18:39:01 Deewiant, depends on field width. 18:39:13 well I guess you mean unpadded 18:39:39 Well sure, I can pad everything to infinity and then everything's the same length. :-P 18:39:43 Deewiant, still I never heard of "silence is acceptance" before 18:40:03 Meh, no such saying in Swedish either? 18:40:15 Deewiant: so are all finns rapists? 18:40:42 ehird: Since when are rape victims silent? 18:41:10 Deewiant: clearly you have never raped a zombie. 18:41:27 That is true, I have not. 18:49:36 http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16189&cat=0&page=1 ← this is cute but ugh I hate those keys that are all rough 18:49:57 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:50:03 can you buy standalone laptop keyboards? 18:50:06 i love those thing 18:50:07 s 18:51:02 apple keyboard is pretty much like a laptop keyboard 18:51:14 yeah, that's why I love them 18:51:14 http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FTQ/89XQ/F8QANFHG/FTQ89XQF8QANFHG.MEDIUM.jpg 18:51:35 but I'd rather not pay apple quite a bit of dough for a kb when I'm moving away from macs. 18:51:49 "silence implies consent" seems to be the corresponding phrase; from latin, qui tacet consentiret; also some sort of legalistic thing, it seems. 18:52:01 your mom 18:52:03 implies 18:52:04 consent. 18:56:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPmd9hmNAI Fucking hell this is loud 18:59:45 This "Logitech UltraX Flat" keyboard I use is rather laptoppy; but this is the old model, the new one got buggered keys. 19:00:08 http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/ ← apple extended keyboard in neu USBy form, looks nice 19:00:22 wonder how much noise 19:00:23 And anyway they had a "Flat" model and a "FlatX" and some sort of "Ultra" thing and it was all so confusing; there was also a no-known-brand clone which looked pretty much identical. 19:01:11 fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88E2xpkdxFk&feature=related, second one (flatx) doesn't look too tactile 19:02:48 ehird: Er, you have a keyboard model you like but it's from the wrong company so you'll get a different one? Wtf? 19:02:57 That's not what I said, Deewiant. 19:03:03 You could try reading :P 19:03:06 09-04-22 20:51:35 ( ehird) but I'd rather not pay apple quite a bit of dough for a kb when I'm moving away from macs. 19:03:12 That is what I read. 19:04:31 ehird: Yes, well, this one is neither "Ultra Flat", nor "Ultra X Premium"; it's "UltraX Flat", which *looks* like the later one (though not *exactly* like), but the keys are... you know, less softy. But they don't make this thing any more; I tried the new version in a shop, and it feels very different. 19:05:01 I'd go for the das keyboard, were it... y'know... not as bloody loud. 19:05:02 "later one" there meaning the later one shown in the video. 19:05:09 I'm not sure which one it was, in fact. 19:05:20 The DAS isn't even particularly loud, I don't think. 19:05:20 No audio made it a bit... abstract. 19:05:51 Deewiant: Not about to buy one to see if that's true, quite expensive thing; reviews say it's = model m volume. 19:06:38 The DAS has blue cherries, the model M is buckling spring. I'd expect an M to be noticeably louder. 19:06:45 True. 19:06:46 "wow u didnt even hit the spacebar nt 1 time u face shit" (comment on video of japanese person typing) 19:07:08 Keyboards are so boring, anyway; 2009 should mean some sort of direct neural connection already. 19:07:38 Deewiant: It's Das, btw. 19:07:55 "Das Keyboard sports best-in-class German-engineered gold-plated mechanical key switches" 19:07:59 MONSTER CABLE FOR YOUR KEYBOARD 19:08:09 Key switches matter, a lot. 19:08:14 I know. Jeez. 19:08:18 Cables do, too. 19:08:33 Or not really, it's more the connector type. 19:08:34 Deewiant: You're not srsly saying you think highly of Monster Cable? 19:08:43 Monster Cable is a company? 19:08:48 Or product? 19:08:49 Yes. A scamster company. 19:08:56 Charge $100+ upwards for a $5 cable. 19:09:00 :-P 19:09:01 Claim it's better quality. Results say: no. 19:09:06 Also, sue people for using the name "Monster". 19:09:09 In any field whatsoever. 19:09:15 Because they invented the word monster, see. 19:09:18 I'd buy a new keyboard like this if Logitech still made 'em; this particular one seems to, after some few years of service, have generated a problem that the space bar doesn't always register if I click on the extreme end of the key. 19:09:41 do people actually do rollover when typing? 19:09:45 I only press one key at a time, in general. 19:09:49 albeit in rapid succession 19:10:37 Yes, well, Monster Cable sells "faster" HDMI cables too. 19:10:40 I sometimes do accidental rollover which causes one of the keys to not register. 19:11:08 "The Speed You Need From Your High Definition Home Theater Cables". Well, maybe it's just flowery text there. 19:13:19 anyone have a space cadet? 19:13:53 Selling gazillion-dollar cables for all-digital connections is a bit suspicious to me, anyway. Oh, and some of the cables are unidirectional; they won't work "right" if you hook them up the wrong way around, even though the connectors are identical on both ends. 19:14:30 Deewiant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnY36odkP6o&feature=related this sounds the loud to me 19:14:44 "Well, turn down the volume." 19:14:48 :-S 19:14:49 *:-D 19:15:11 That's what cherry blues sound like. :-P 19:16:07 See the video at the bottom of http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/08/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx for some variation. 19:17:20 It's a bit high pitched, is my thinking. 19:17:27 My model m and apple keyboard are both deep sounds. 19:18:13 Yeah, the Das is higher-pitched than other cherry blue keyboards, or so I've heard. 19:18:47 anyone used a scissor-switch kb 19:18:54 supposedly the ones laptops use. 19:19:24 Meh, they're membrane keyboards so they suck anyway. :-P 19:19:52 I dunno, I like the feel of laptop kbs. You don't need to put much pressure on and that makes my type faster. 19:20:03 fizzie: is your X thing scizswitch 19:20:51 How should I know? It certainly didn't say on the box. :p 19:21:09 :P 19:21:21 A special case of computer keyboard membrane switch is the scissors switch. The keys are attached to the keyboard via two plastic pieces that interlock in a "scissor"-like fashion, and snap to the keyboard and the key. It still uses rubber domes, but a special plastic 'scissors' mechanism links the keycap to a plunger that depresses the rubber dome with a much shorter travel than the typical rubber dome keyboard 19:21:23 hey... 19:21:24 I don't remember what it looked like, inside, either. Except that one of the longer keys had some sort of metallic-wire-trickery that was very tricky to get back in place when I removed it. 19:21:28 I think my current one is that 19:21:36 * ehird pops off a key to see 19:21:47 Hm. 19:22:42 The keycap is separate; it has a hollow tube in the middle. This snaps into a thing on the actual keyboard which has another hollow tube with a rubber membrane at the bottom, again a hollow tube, although smaller and shorter. 19:22:57 Deewiant: what does that sound like to you? 19:23:12 Sounds like rubber dome. 19:23:58 Deewiant: Yes. Seems likely. 19:24:26 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 19:25:16 http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/resources/images/TP2_hands_diagram_1.jpg "This keyboard for people with three or more hands" 19:25:39 Hmm, those keyboards look identical 19:25:54 ehird: Yes, there seems to be two plastic pieces in a scissors-like fashion under the keycaps of this thing. 19:26:07 Your mom is two plast— shot 19:26:09 Well, I only examined a sample of N=1 keys, but I don't really think they'd alter. 19:26:29 Maybe it's the only one like that! 19:26:49 it's to fool customers 19:26:55 they told people to pop off keys 19:27:02 and the 3 most common ones they made scissor'd 19:27:09 to fool customers, the rest is just bogstandard membrane 19:28:06 is the das keyboard smooth-key? 19:28:07 For the record, it was the number key 1. But as I said, they no longer make this thing; I'd bet the current version is not scissory at all, since the feedbacky sort-of-clicky-but-not-quite feeling is gone, it's just a soft resistance. 19:28:13 What's "smooth-key" 19:28:32 (Well, the current version of their product that still looks similar. I'm not quite sure how the all-black also-rather-slim version acts.) 19:28:33 Deewiant: a lot of keyboards have plastic keycaps where if you look closely there's lots of little bobble 19:28:33 s 19:28:36 I hate that feel 19:28:43 and much prefer smooth plastic keycaps 19:28:57 I'm annoyed by the bobbles on the home row keys and such 19:29:06 not that 19:32:12 My model m sounds nicer in my recording than in the real thing 19:32:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:33:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CeNunbHto&feature=related ← this sounds godly 19:33:39 could do with more keys. and keycaps. 19:35:47 Whenever I press a key, something else on my board says something approximated by "bräng", thanks to the vibration. (I guess the onomatopoeicity of that is possibly a bit Finnish-only.) 19:36:03 s/board/table/ maybe. 19:36:11 Or is any table a board? 19:39:44 And the Cherry MX Brown is tactile, but not clicky 19:39:46 hot 19:40:44 abs m1 is apparently tactile !click 19:40:59 windows key has some sort of smooth bullshit on though 19:41:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oue4KQkmBEM er sounds very clicky 19:42:59 Nowadays the Windows key should be in that embossed circle thing nowadays; I don't have any keyboards like that here. 19:43:10 nowadays nowadays 19:43:28 http://www.viddler.com/explore/HotHardware/videos/69/ second one sounds hot 19:43:31 Incidentally, do they still use the "correct" layout of ins-home-pageup-del-end-pagedown keys in addition to the weird vertical thing? 19:43:45 it's clicky but without the cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick 19:43:52 fizzie: yar 19:44:14 "We put the ICKY back in CLICKY" would be an awesome slogan for a keyboard manufacturer. 19:44:38 :D 19:44:59 call it kICKY or something 19:45:53 aaaaaaaaaaa 19:45:56 the 7g has unsmooth keys 19:45:59 look: http://www.steelseries.com/images/18/1561-1866.jpg 19:46:04 also wtf@that layout 19:46:10 :D 19:47:55 Conversation fragment from outside my office: "Yeah, but what if L7 goes up to sixty?" "What do you mean by sixty?" 19:48:06 * GregorR wonders how "sixty" can ever be ambiguous. 19:48:14 Doesn't include units. 19:48:49 Hmmmmmmmmm, 'spossible. I assumed they were talking about some algorithm since this is the CS lounge :P 19:50:09 Is it actually possible to buy domain names from squatters, or is it purely mythical :P 19:50:21 you can do it 19:50:23 but it costs $k 19:51:19 I've been getting lots of targeted spam about gehennom.com becoming soon available for purchasation, to the webmaster@gehennom.org address. 19:51:42 I want plof.{something} :P 19:51:52 But they're all squatted because it's a four-letter word. 19:51:53 GregorR: plof.pf? 19:51:57 Come up with a cctld yo. 19:52:10 GregorR: plof.ly 19:52:39 GregorR: flop.ws 19:52:41 plof.pl/of :P 19:52:43 Software: plof" 19:52:44 " 19:52:47 plof.fo 19:52:57 plof.ws/here 19:53:04 As in the famous insult, "You're such a ploffo!" 19:53:13 plof.aq 19:53:17 Plofaq. 19:53:59 Or "plof.it"; then you can paraphrase the famous slogan and have something in the just.plof.it address. 19:53:59 of.pl/plof 19:54:43 Some of those ccTLDs are rather strict about requiring someone/something in the country itself. 19:54:53 fizzie: Damn them :P 19:54:59 yeah 19:55:02 I wanted velociraptu.re 19:55:09 but you need to be in REtard land. 19:56:16 For .fi you also need to be someone living in Finland, or a company/organization/foundation registered in the corresponding Finnish registry. 19:56:38 fu.fi/fo/fum 19:57:28 fu.fi is registered to "All You Need Finland Oy" ("Oy" being the company-suffix). 19:58:04 The front page looks a bit bizarre. Maybe some sort of religious cult? 19:58:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:01:18 Funny, you only get to use (in addition to the "normal" characters) the characters å, ä, ö and the Sami language specials (but only those officially spoken in Finland) in IDNs in the .fi registry. That's rather a limitation. 20:05:03 why aren't ther any smooth keyboards ;_; 20:05:13 Smooth criminals. 20:05:34 smooth criminalboards 20:13:32 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:17:42 -!- olsner has joined. 20:21:59 aaaaaaaaaaaagh 20:22:07 the steelseries 7g is single width 20:22:13 backspace 20:22:15 kill it with fire!! 20:27:40 i just want a decent non-{tactile,clicky} mechanical keyboard 20:27:43 preferably with smooth keys. 20:27:44 :| 20:33:08 :( 20:34:04 Just buy one of those Optimus Maximus keyboards, and be the envy of your neighbourhood. Even though as a keyboard I don't think it's especially good. 20:34:20 ew. 20:34:29 no way am I paying $1k for a shitty keyboard. 20:36:35 Heh, right, it was that steelseries 7G which had gold-plated connectors. :p 20:36:51 fizzie: what's your kb again 20:37:18 ehird, you want a clicky keyboard. Buckling springs FTW. 20:37:20 Logitech UltraX Flat, if I recall correctly; but it's been discontinued; they have something vaguely similar, but not at all. 20:37:33 pikhq: Fuck that. I hate their sound and they're not fast to type on. 20:37:46 The only vaguely similar thing I'm considering is the das keyboard. 20:38:25 fizzie: http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-967568-0403-X-Flat-Resistant-Keyboard/dp/B000I4UQZM 20:38:33 "Gaming keyboards" are funny. This one advertises itself has having "2 megabytes of built-in memory and an integrated TurboCore unit". 20:38:37 :-D 20:39:12 http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Illuminated-Ultrathin-Keyboard-Backlighting/dp/B001F51G16/ref=pd_cp_e_2?pf_rd_p=413863501&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000I4UQZM&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1BWD2KVWZWF5K9H5VEKD this looks quite the nice 20:40:59 I think that "Ultra-X Flat" in the first Amazon model is the new variant, with non-scissory just-sort-of-soft-touch keys. It has that black border above, which I seem to recall was about the only obvious physical difference. But I don't really know. 20:41:53 Er, first Amazon link, I mean. 20:42:08 I think I did try some other all-black thing Logitech keyboard, and it didn't feel any better. I don't think it had any illuminatus connections, though. 20:42:09 "What's this? A laptop-style keyboard on the desk of a TR editor, a heavy-duty typist and ostensible keyboard purist? Surely there must be some mistake" 20:42:12 This sounds promising. 20:42:31 http://techreport.com/articles.x/16522 Looks nice enough at first glance. 20:43:21 although I hate that wrist rest 20:44:48 "What's more, the Aurora fits in perfectly with my dual black Dell monitors, black speakers, black Logitech wireless mouse, black headphones, and shiny black Antec Sonata case." 20:44:55 "But alas, I cannot change my race." 20:45:21 grr that windows key makes me want to kill something 20:45:28 FUCK YOUR LOGO AND FUCK YOUR GLOS 20:45:30 S 20:45:37 ............. 20:45:38 oh god 20:45:39 the backspace 20:45:42 is one key wide 20:45:44 ahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 20:45:57 I hate keyboard-shopping since it would be more optimal to actually get to poke them things, and that's hard over the internets. 20:46:10 totally 20:46:19 but i've never heard of a keyboard shop 20:46:49 Alt grrrrrrrrrrrr 20:47:08 Keyboard shops are hidden away at dark alleyways, only for the true keyboard connoisseur. 20:48:18 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: E=$BDE!N(Bc2 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 20:48:28 Hm, it no work 20:48:46 The tiny backspace is tiny, truly. 20:50:20 a youtube keyboard review without any typing video 20:50:22 Great job guys 20:50:49 omg 20:50:55 this one has full sized backspace key in this review 20:50:58 but not on the site 20:50:59 WAT 20:51:16 Might be layout-dependant; I've seen that sort of thing. 20:51:31 Or maybe they're just playing with you. 21:07:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?). 21:09:10 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:09:44 Our local the-major-computer-parts-retailer-around-these-parts-I-guess sells this thing called "Überkeyboard" which openly advertises the laptop-likeness and scissor-switchiness. But it also completely lacks all key markings. And has a bit miniaturized layout when it comes to cursor keys. And is a cheap plasticky sort of thing, too. 21:16:28 -!- neldoreth has quit (Connection timed out). 21:25:01 -!- k has joined. 21:25:29 -!- k has changed nick to Guest49992. 21:34:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:50:48 -!- [flaming] has joined. 21:51:06 <[flaming]> anybody know what this does? 21:51:06 <[flaming]> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 21:51:29 Run it and see? 21:52:17 <[flaming]> can i run it without downloading anything? 21:52:43 -!- [flaming] has left (?). 21:52:53 ... 21:54:11 I think that's "Hello, World!\n", but I'm not sure. 21:54:50 Probably. I mean, what else would you run into at random? :-P 21:55:57 That was rather impatient. 21:55:58 That outputs 14 bytes? 21:56:15 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 21:56:15 Hello World!. 21:56:22 13. 21:56:26 You must be a psychic. 21:56:35 Hmm, wat. 21:56:48 The last dot there is probably the newline. 21:56:56 Oh, right. 21:57:01 Yeah. Definitly a newline. 22:01:49 -!- okloduk has joined. 22:03:32 You know, I just noticed that in today's xkcd, the railing in the sixth panel is apparently a cross section. 22:04:05 If it were a side view, it would probably curve back toward the house at some point. 22:06:05 -!- oklokol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:11:25 -!- ehird has left (?). 22:11:27 -!- ehird has joined. 22:35:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:36:49 a simple yes or no would've sufficed. 22:37:04 in which case, no. 22:37:34 hmm 22:37:55 well okay, i guess yours was better. 22:37:56 oklopol: erm, do you get highlighted on any oklo* ? 22:38:06 no, i'm just here 24/7 22:38:20 actually just found two orthogonal 4x4 latin squares, and came to celebrate 22:38:30 orthogonal? 22:38:37 You probably should, though, since your nicks vary so much 22:38:54 oerjan: when you pair them up elementwise, all pairs different 22:39:30 why does your client give _two_ version replies? :D 22:39:40 err 22:39:50 which one did you version? 22:39:54 okloduk 22:40:12 well it's mirc, it tends to do weird stuff when you ask it stuff. 22:41:59 you better paste those squares, that doesn't make sense... 22:44:16 err 22:44:19 NEVER 22:44:29 the wp article on latin squares uses the term, but doesn't define it... 22:44:56 you have two matrices, and you take each element (i,j) from both matrices, if the matrices are size n, you get n^2 ordered pairs, orthogonality = all pairs different 22:45:17 also they both have to be latin squares 22:45:24 oh right just one for each matrix 22:45:31 yes something like that 22:45:42 i was confused and thought you took a pair from each 22:45:46 right 22:47:41 anyway it's a trivial problem, i wasn't trying to imply i was proud of that or anything 22:47:58 just needed an excuse for having appeared just in time 22:48:41 oh well, i'll pretend to believe your excuse then. er, whoops. 22:49:21 what the heck is that topic 22:49:54 The topic is something that did not work. 22:50:06 22:48:18 ... Slereah_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: E=Æ$BDE!N(Bc2 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D 22:50:09 22:48:28 < ~Slereah_> Hm, it no work 22:50:19 I am unsure as to how it did not work. 22:51:04 maybe it was a wild attempt at injection 22:51:25 clearly he forgot to balance parentheses 22:54:11 in soviet russia, parentheses balance themselves 22:54:21 um no 22:54:51 * oerjan swats okloduk for a clear meme failure -----### 22:54:57 okay i've done 48 exercises, if i do 3 more, i'll get cool extra points in the exam 22:55:05 but i already got 30/30 from the first exam 22:55:09 so it's like 22:55:15 have wasted time vs. waste time 22:55:32 any suggestions? or maybe requests for clarification. 22:56:25 in soviet russia, time wastes YOU 22:56:39 admittedly, that has been known to happen under capitalism as well 22:57:32 also, in soviet russia, extra points in the exam get YOU 22:57:46 i actually had a "good" soviet russia joke today, but i just couldn't do it. 22:57:56 but now i'm tired and i can say anything. 22:58:10 i mean SR jokes are somewhat old 22:59:06 Yes, strontium jokes have truly ceasiumed to be amusing. 22:59:29 so umm 22:59:37 in soviet russia, yoda grammatical order changes 22:59:43 there exercises have about 3 pages of shit for me to read 22:59:47 ... 22:59:53 don't they realize it's fucking past midnight 23:00:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:01:19 SR isn't strontium, it's sulfide. 23:01:39 good point. 23:01:40 Sulfides in general. That R could be anything. 23:01:51 really good 23:01:55 I guess so; I just used "wn sr -over" to get something to say. 23:02:34 i don't know if it is germanium that we should sulphur such puns 23:02:57 fizzie: that's what you get for only using material from the channel 23:03:01 although it might lead to some gold 23:03:07 oh look i have a spoon next to me :o 23:03:16 probably because i just ate ice cream. 23:03:20 Like the old saying goes: when you make assumptions, you make an ass out of you and... 'mptions. 23:03:22 mmmm it was good. 23:04:06 fizzie: i don't get it 23:05:51 Well, it's a saying. I don't really get those either. 23:05:52 In Soviet Russia, the ability to get better services due to natural talent is deemphasized YOU! 23:06:10 When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me. 23:06:49 23:05 kerlo: In Soviet Russia, the ability to get better services due to natural talent is deemphasized YOU! ← capitalism fail 23:06:50 No, I don't think that's it. I'm certain it was something about umptions. 23:07:37 kerlo: that soviet russia joke didn't contain a silver of funny. but i guess we could iron something out 23:08:28 Yeah, sounds like a good idea. 23:09:53 fizzie: i think you must have read a scrambled version 23:10:53 My elementary comment wasn't a good idea, I take it. 23:12:33 wait are we still on that 23:13:00 fizzie: it was a boron idea, and if you do anything such again i'll call a copper 23:14:26 oerjan: Oh? Well... I'll unbihexuminate your untrilinums if you try anything that ununseptic. 23:15:12 -!- Guest49992 has quit (Connection timed out). 23:16:52 i think this is wearing a bit tin 23:19:16 -!- coppro has joined. 23:20:20 Ah! You in fact called the copper, it seems! With some slight changes in spelling. 23:20:58 you'd think they would see through a pun 23:23:42 I was gold by this conversation. I'm glad to see the puns finally argon. 23:24:12 lament: you repeated an element, lose 3 points 23:24:47 helium. 23:24:59 really, where? 23:25:08 okloduk: there is no reason for swearing, sodium it 23:25:36 could you please stop seaborgium 23:25:49 putos carbones 23:26:04 this is getting out of hand, i don't understand the puns any longer 23:27:27 well, antimony to you too. 23:27:42 of course, i'm not actually sure these are international names, though they do sound like it 23:27:47 there could be a meaning to that, but i xenon 23:28:54 oerjan: radon, man 23:29:14 * pikhq drops some sodium into the pool. 23:30:24 lament is having a huge radon 23:30:40 pikhq: i think doing that is a chrome 23:30:43 All this is ytterbiumly ludicrous. Is there some curium I could use to make it stop? Perhaps some sort of good samarium could change the topic? Though it would be a titanium task. 23:31:15 i don't zinc so. 23:31:18 francium i don't care 23:31:21 :D 23:31:43 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric, the land of puns | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 23:31:53 this could go on for a lantanium 23:31:54 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoteric (verb) the land of puns | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 23:32:00 * ehird esoterics. 23:32:04 :) 23:32:43 *lanthanum, dammit 23:32:51 technetiumically we could try to do something less bohrium. 23:34:26 your puns are too krypton, try to bismuth 23:34:46 i dubnium that 23:34:51 HEY GUYS 23:34:55 ROLLERCOASTERS 23:34:58 :| 23:35:05 WITH RAPTORS 23:35:35 VELOCIROLLERCOASTERAPTORS 23:35:45 HOLYMOLYBDENUM 23:35:47 WITH BLASTERS 23:35:55 * okloduk realized he can just download the solution manual and get the points for free! 23:36:13 Money for nothing and the points for free. 23:36:46 "how weird that you'd do the same mistake as the solution manual!" 23:37:04 (actual quote, although maybe it was less exclamation marky.) 23:37:10 -!- Dewio has joined. 23:37:11 Just try the "great minds think alike" defense. 23:37:16 heh. 23:37:39 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:39:32 ehird: o_O 23:39:48 Gracenotes: see #concatenative. 23:39:52 usually, you should kick those sorts of peoples.. 23:39:58 we've tried. 23:40:00 he uses tor. 23:40:17 quiet tor, then 23:40:31 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined. 23:40:31 no 23:40:34 void countVowels(string str, int & aCt, int & eCt, int & iCt, int & oCt, int & uCt) 23:40:35 Gracenotes: he uses cgi:irc 23:40:36 via tor 23:40:49 oh? then quiet mibbit? 23:40:54 cgi:irc 23:40:55 not mibbit 23:41:07 oh. then that. 23:41:37 jeez. you peoples >_> 23:41:46 what's his shpiel anyway 23:41:46 Can that be quieted without quieting all cgi:irc users using that network? 23:41:49 Sgeo[College]: make that varargs, so you can add an optional yCt ;D 23:41:58 lol oerjan 23:42:13 Gracenotes: claims he can't sleep without knowing slava's employer; he called phone numbers and shit 23:42:13 Seriously, I can't believe the professor thinks this is acceptable 23:42:18 you can voice people to except them 23:42:22 Why is that not an array? 23:42:27 either completely psychotic or a troll; if he's a troll, he's incredibly good and incredibly dedicated 23:42:32 coppro: we haven't learned arrays yet 23:42:38 oh 23:42:43 that would probably be why 23:42:52 My question is why don't we just do countLetters(char ch, string str) and call it multiple times 23:42:56 Isn't that more sane? 23:43:11 I'd use that as the underlying implementaton 23:43:18 if only to irritate him 23:43:26 anywahs. 23:44:00 well, you could quiet his nick and make the channel +z 23:44:11 anyway. >_< trolls, shouldn't devote too much attention. 23:44:19 he changes nick 23:44:19 :3 23:44:21 to em. 23:44:39 current prediction is that he'll die of sleep deprivation 23:44:41 which will be fun 23:45:01 Where is this?\ 23:46:21 or there's the kick-on-sight solution. which can escalate 23:46:34 Sgeo[College]: no 23:46:40 I have consumed 1,302 calories today 23:47:25 :D 23:47:42 Gracenotes: how far along is said day? 23:48:57 I was about to say that I could make a list of everything I've eaten today, but then I realized that some flour tortilla chips and BUGLES have passed under the radar. 23:49:17 actually, counting the milk 1,474 23:49:22 sounds about right so far 23:49:36 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 23:49:53 anyone want 3gb of ddr3 ram :-P 23:51:00 actually, 1,243... screwed up grams and calories. this logging might take some getting used to :3 23:51:46 I woke up at 9:00 AM, ate breakfast (bagel, so 600 calories), took a nap, ate sushi (258 calories), then some cereal (392 calories) 23:52:00 "I actually prefer the way you did it.' 23:52:14 * kerlo adds stuff 23:52:32 right now it's 7:00 PM and I'm going to the gym in an hour... phew. 23:53:01 Gracenotes: technically, those are probably kilocalories anyway 23:53:16 yes, they are, my SHIFT KEY IS ERRATIC RIGHT NOW 23:53:33 (actually, I just forgot to capitalize the C >_>) 23:53:39 Gracenotes: you need some more grace notes in your day 23:54:14 oh, good idea, I should go play the piano after gym ^_^ 23:54:59 >.< 23:55:25 did i just sense a pun backfiring? 23:56:44 Let's see, about 370 Calories at breakfast, 630 at lunch, then a bunch at whatever you call that meal between lunch and dinner. 23:56:59 linner 23:57:25 I have a feeling that if I said "linner" before ehird, ehird would make a sarcastic remark about how unclever that is 23:57:25 And snacks. 23:57:33 Sgeo[College]: yep. 23:57:43 Call it Linux. 23:57:53 lee knucks 23:58:18 all my food is Linux-compatible 23:58:19 Anyway, that and a fair bit of snacking puts me somewhere near 2000, I imagine. 23:58:34 Sgeo[College]: he'd probably call you a dunch for it 23:58:42 And it's 7 PM. I wonder if I could get away with not eating for the rest of the day. 23:59:17 I tend to eat into the night... so I should take that into account. 23:59:40 I'm just starting to log everything today. So far so good... eh.