00:00:02 So I have to change its config. 00:00:04 ais523: that's os x 00:00:05 probably 00:00:08 ah, yes 00:00:08 vm 00:00:18 the problem seems to be that nothing's listening at your end on 5688 00:00:27 as a test, you might want to set up a quick netcat listener 00:00:32 ais523: of course it is 00:00:36 I connected via nibbles 00:00:36 and 00:00:37 (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused 00:00:40 ah, ok 00:00:40 that's an error from ggz 00:00:42 not netcat 00:00:47 and good point 00:00:47 otherwise, how does it know it's ggz? 00:00:52 I doubt it's in a DB somewhere 00:00:52 oh, no, maybe not 00:00:54 it is in a DB 00:00:59 there's a massive DB of what port's what in Ubuntu 00:01:21 ais523: try it on another thing 00:01:22 like 00:01:24 try it on google.com 00:01:39 and see if you get the same error 00:01:52 $ nc localhost 6667 00:01:53 localhost [127.0.0.1] 6667 (ircd) : Connection refused 00:01:56 Ah 00:02:01 Lemme try from os x 00:02:09 [ehird:~] % nc localhost 5688 00:02:09 [ehird:~] % 00:02:11 How impolite! 00:02:21 [ehird:~] % telnet localhost 5688 00:02:21 Trying ::1... 00:02:22 telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused 00:02:24 Trying fe80::1... 00:02:26 telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused 00:02:28 Trying 127.0.0.1... 00:02:30 telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused 00:02:32 telnet: Unable to connect to remote host 00:02:35 My prediction? 00:02:39 Either Ubuntu's firewalling it, 00:02:41 or the VM is. 00:02:48 ais523: how can I tell iptables to let that through? 00:02:53 I'll try 00:02:57 sudo ufw allow 5688 00:03:08 there's an iptables command-line frontend, it's great 00:03:09 Try now ais523 00:03:21 Same issue 00:03:24 * ehird pokes around vm 00:03:25 still connection refused 00:03:32 did you run the ufw command? 00:03:40 "sudo ufw status" will tell you the firewall config 00:03:45 yes 00:04:04 I has idea 00:04:07 * ehird changes config, restarts VM. 00:04:09 Hopefully, this will just work. 00:04:14 If not, let's use the official server. 00:04:25 what version is the VM running, by the way? 00:04:33 The beta thing. 00:04:41 coppro: incidentally, I wrote the AI for the latest version of Nibbles, which is in Jaunty and also Intrepid, I think 00:04:50 neat 00:04:57 ais523: I hate that AI. 00:05:00 in what way/ 00:05:01 It's too good. 00:05:01 :P 00:05:16 well, it's much the same as before, except that it doesn't randomly suicide like the old one used to 00:05:30 Guys, try again. 00:06:17 ais523: No success? 00:06:27 no success. 00:06:32 75.159.19.254 00:06:50 wait... 00:06:55 it works! 00:06:55 yay 00:06:57 thanks coppro 00:06:59 $ nc 91.106.116.151 5688 00:07:01 is just hanging 00:07:04 ais523: you can start the actual game 00:07:11 which IP do I aim for? 00:07:15 coppro's 00:08:58 -!- iano has joined. 00:09:51 What is the largest program ever written in an esoteric language? 00:09:55 where's the conf? 00:09:59 iano: there are many autogenerated ones 00:10:02 coppro: go to ggz 00:10:04 me and ais are there 00:10:07 coppro: ehird and I went over to the official server 00:10:11 oh ok 00:10:11 Which is barren. 00:10:12 I mean by hand 00:10:13 Nobody else is on 00:10:14 apart from us 00:11:36 guys 00:11:37 I left 00:11:38 can we restart 00:11:42 I had to change the networking stack thing 00:12:03 aaaaaaaaaaaah! 00:12:06 it freezes on connect! 00:12:10 ais523: coppro: :| 00:12:27 ais523: 00:12:34 Error connecing to server: No such file or directory 00:12:36 that's nearly unplayable 00:12:36 O_O 00:12:43 coppro: yeah 00:12:44 I've just killed the game 00:12:44 way too slow 00:12:46 second 00:12:55 and yes, it's running rather slowly... 00:12:57 coppro: what's your IP? 00:13:03 the one I posted above 00:13:03 wait 00:13:04 guyz 00:13:07 should I run it on rutian? 00:13:08 that's fast 00:13:11 ah, good point 00:13:16 rutian? 00:13:18 server Ubuntu == desktop Ubuntu 00:13:21 coppro: ehird's server 00:13:23 ah 00:13:32 coppro: my server, dead atm but ais523 had root on it a while ago 00:14:02 installing 00:14:24 -!- iano has quit. 00:15:02 yay, almost got it working 00:15:21 aha 00:15:27 /etc/ggzd/games contains no nibblse 00:15:31 I must have to install nibbles-server or sth 00:15:44 gnome-games-servers 00:15:46 yes 00:15:51 this should be nice and fast 00:15:55 HOLY SHIT THAT"S A LOT OF PACKAGES 00:15:55 haha 00:16:00 it's gonna install X11 00:16:05 eh, go for it 00:17:08 Here goes. 00:17:12 Just one lil' bit of config should do it. 00:17:27 so, what's the Xorg.conf on rutian like? 00:17:34 I don't even know what you put there for a server 00:17:34 :-) 00:17:44 ais523: well 00:17:46 ssh can forward it 00:17:49 yes 00:17:51 so, only non-device-related stuff 00:18:36 what's rutian's IP, again? 00:18:48 sec 00:19:11 208.78.103.223 00:19:12 it works 00:19:22 and will probably be slower than the ggz thing 00:19:23 oh well 00:19:29 i'll avoid heavy ircing ;) 00:20:12 Oi, coppro :-) 00:20:52 -!- ehird has set topic: This is rutian, who cares? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 00:21:15 coppro matic 00:21:28 shall we try 2-player until coppro notices, to test the connection? 00:21:31 earth to coppro! 00:21:32 ais523: sure 00:21:41 vm lag + network lag + rutian lag 00:21:44 delicious. 00:22:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:23:12 doo doo 00:23:26 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:23:55 -!- coppro has joined. 00:24:05 wb coppro 00:24:07 ais523: 00:24:08 # Any additional game arguments specific to this room 00:24:09 #ExecutableArgs= 00:24:15 what's the arg to pass to gnibbles? :P 00:24:26 I didn't even know it took settings on the command line 00:24:50 OPTIONS 00:24:50 wait 00:24:50 aha 00:24:51 This program only accepts the standard GNOME and GTK options. 00:24:55 ais523: I figured it out 00:24:59 I think 00:25:01 what's the trick? 00:25:16 [TableOptions] 00:25:17 AllowLeave = 1 00:25:18 #BotsAllowed = 0 00:25:20 PlayersAllowed = 2..6 00:25:22 AllowSpectators = 0 00:25:24 seems relevant, I guess. 00:25:26 Maybe not. 00:25:28 [LaunchInfo] 00:25:30 ExecutablePath = /usr/lib/ggz/gnibblesd 00:25:32 # Set ExecutableArgs in the room file 00:25:34 Huh. 00:25:37 there's no AllowChangePreferences, or whatever 00:26:20 * ehird reads the docs 00:26:36 "GGZ Community database access is not possible." 00:26:37 Kill me now. 00:26:46 owait 00:26:46 http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/ 00:27:29 Admin docs 00:27:29 Server administrators can find instructions and recommendations here. 00:27:30 Server Hosting Guide: HTML, PostScript, text 00:27:32 Grubby Chatbot Admin Manual: HTML 00:27:33 -!- schlangen1 has quit ("Leaving."). 00:27:34 Package Dependency Graph: PostScript, PNG 00:27:36 Database design: HTML 00:27:38 server hosting guide! 00:28:08 http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/gameservers/gnibbles/ 00:28:20 Ah. 00:28:22 *aha 00:28:30 gah 00:28:34 these docs suck 00:28:42 ais523: just play at regular speed? 00:29:04 if you want to 00:29:12 incidentally, GGZ's doc referred me to Gnome's 00:29:17 which referred me to a redlinked page on a wiki 00:29:22 yep 00:29:23 ditto 00:29:27 ais523: rejoin? 00:29:33 on which server? rutian? 00:29:48 yes 00:31:22 just wanted to set a description 00:32:46 ais523: png 00:32:47 ping 00:32:51 pong 00:32:59 join 00:33:04 the tabl 00:33:05 e 00:34:58 ais523: new table 00:35:59 it's no good, I didn't even figure out which worm I was before the game ended 00:36:32 ais523: what? it didn't end 00:36:33 you left 00:36:37 it ended for me 00:36:37 I was still playing.... 00:36:40 Let's try again 00:36:44 obviously must have desynced due to lag 00:36:55 eh, worth another try 00:37:55 Aww... No nibbles here... 00:38:16 it's no good, there are cherries inside walls, about three target doughnuts, and I keep crashing into nonexistent objects 00:38:33 err 00:38:35 ais523? 00:38:39 There are no walls. 00:38:41 Just the outer ones. 00:38:44 there are at my end 00:38:48 * ais523 takes a screenshot 00:38:49 ais523: Methinks we need to be on the same level settings! 00:39:03 ... it stands to reason: if we both pick the same speed, magic! 00:39:27 ais523: Speed: finger-twitching good. Don't enable fake bonuses, don't play levels in random order. 00:39:34 Starting 1. 00:39:37 http://imgur.com/Ak.png 00:39:38 Kay? 00:39:44 ehird: the setting it was playing on /aren't my settings/ 00:39:51 How queer. 00:39:56 Well, if you set it to that, maybe it'll work. 00:39:59 Just one more try like that? 00:40:24 ok 00:40:31 ais523: also, you host 00:40:34 then I'll be the one with the glitches :P 00:40:58 strange, it just quit 00:41:00 let me try again 00:42:17 sweet 00:42:20 I have level 1 00:42:23 and I keep bashing into fake things 00:42:27 and jumping around 00:42:58 Ohh 00:43:01 ais523: I'm bashing into you 00:43:02 Before I see it 00:43:13 Wait. 00:43:14 Which am I? 00:43:21 you're purple, and I just won 00:43:27 Purple? 00:43:31 ais523: There's only red and green. 00:43:33 Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524! 00:43:34 well, green 00:43:38 I got no such message. 00:43:39 :D 00:43:41 I customized the colours for player 2 00:43:44 This is trippy. 00:43:47 because they keep confusing me with the walls 00:43:52 :D 00:44:01 So, um why does this suck so much 00:44:06 hey, settings | preferences work now 00:44:10 yay 00:44:11 and my guess is because nobody ever tested it 00:44:15 ais523: set it to full speed and level 1 00:44:19 and no fake things 00:44:30 it's set like that already 00:44:44 It's frozen. 00:44:47 yep, for me too 00:44:48 LEt's try the official serve.r 00:44:55 * ais523 quits 00:45:10 going to official 00:46:12 ais523: are there walls for you? 00:46:14 I just have the border 00:46:15 and keep crashing 00:46:25 i get standard level 1 00:46:39 ah 00:46:40 just lag 00:46:43 with 4 doughnuts 00:46:46 ais523: question 00:46:52 are you really short? 00:46:53 I am 00:47:02 no, not atm 00:47:05 Whoa 00:47:09 it's flooding me with I-won messages 00:47:13 and glitches on the screen 00:47:16 I just won, according to my Nibbles 00:47:24 ais523: how about we just VNC? 00:47:27 ok, I am so going to have to fix Nibbles some day 00:47:27 that'd be more reliable... 00:47:33 and how would that work? 00:47:41 ais523: you log in to my session and use player 2 keys 00:47:46 ah, aha 00:47:49 which program do I use? 00:47:55 well, I need to find a server first! 00:48:16 ais523: remote dekstop viewer 00:48:18 Internet → 00:48:21 it's in there 00:48:33 yep, I was wondering about that one 00:48:38 * ehird looks for server 00:49:12 system | preferences | remote desktop 00:49:34 oh, nice. 00:49:57 wait 00:50:00 what port is VNC? 00:50:08 5900 00:50:21 "configure network automatically to accept connections" is probably Gnomese for opening the port 00:50:36 * ehird forwards 00:50:46 ais523: I don't trust those things 00:50:51 * ehird forwards manually 00:50:56 nope, apparently not 00:51:32 ais523: try 91.105.116.151 00:52:05 I just get a big black screen 00:52:19 with no sign of being able to do anything with it 00:52:22 sec 00:52:43 $ nc 91.105.116.151 5900 00:52:45 (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5900 (?) : Connection refused 00:53:35 gah 00:53:40 I wonder what gconf thing it is 00:54:48 ais523: try now 00:55:01 hahaha, I just connected to myself, it's pretty 00:55:06 :D 00:55:09 but srs try now 00:55:17 ok, trying 00:55:30 still a black screen, nc doesn't work 00:56:19 aha 00:56:20 hm 00:57:21 vncTCP59005900192.168.1.159 00:57:23 that's right, no? 00:57:50 ais523: here, can you configure your NAT? 00:57:58 maybe I should connect to you 00:58:07 ehird: I have no control over the router here 00:58:11 dam 00:58:19 ais523: ssh tunnel? 00:58:21 Would that work? 00:58:50 ooh, it could do 00:59:05 I'd need an account on a server somewhere 00:59:18 Wait, ais523, 00:59:33 % telnet 127.0.0.1 5900 00:59:33 Trying 127.0.0.1... 00:59:35 telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused 00:59:37 telnet: Unable to connect to remote host 00:59:39 It's the fuckin' VM! 00:59:46 ais523: firewall incantation plz 00:59:51 sudo ufw allow 5900 00:59:57 figured it out before you said it 00:59:58 try now ais523 00:59:58 you can be more detailed than that if you like 01:00:14 not refused, now hanging 01:00:20 maybe it's waiting for you to confirm? 01:00:21 That's better. 01:00:27 ais523: Nope. I'll enable that and try 01:00:44 ais523: disconnect/reconnect 01:00:56 getting connection refused again 01:01:19 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:01:29 check the syslog for firewall messages/ 01:01:54 ais523: nothin' 01:02:24 this is weird 01:03:03 ais523: any ideas? 01:03:49 ais523: locally connecting works 01:03:50 ehird: put up netcat listeners on 5900 on both your main computer and VM 01:03:55 let me netcat to them and see what happens 01:03:58 Sniff the connection and see if the SYN gets through? If it does, its local firewall problem. 01:04:32 % telnet localhost 5900 01:04:32 Trying ::1... 01:04:34 telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused 01:04:36 Trying fe80::1... 01:04:36 if you like, and give me permission, I'll portscan you to see what happens 01:04:38 telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused 01:04:40 Trying 127.0.0.1... 01:04:42 telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused 01:04:44 telnet: Unable to connect to remote host 01:04:46 Okay, it's the fuckin' VM. 01:04:48 * ehird fixes 01:04:52 anyone can portscan me, it's a free internet :P 01:05:01 * ehird reboots VM 01:05:03 yep, but I don't like portscanning people uninvited 01:05:10 and raise eyebrows when someone portscans me 01:05:22 mostly the University, I get portscanned whenever I connect to wireless or access my email 01:05:54 ais523: i'm the kind of person who runs a wireless network with zero security enabled on purpose :-) 01:06:19 ais523: try connecting now. 01:06:25 refused 01:06:28 Thought so. 01:06:34 ais523: what did we do when I did nibbles? 01:06:36 * ehird checks log 01:06:43 it didn't work, IIRC 01:07:00 -!- MizardX- has joined. 01:07:10 oh. 01:07:14 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out). 01:07:16 waiiiiiiiit 01:07:22 maybe os x is firewallin' it 01:07:34 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 01:08:35 ais523: try now. 01:09:02 i did it on OS X 01:09:14 * ehird fullscreens Ubuntu 01:09:19 nc works, providing the right response 01:09:21 after you connect 01:09:25 ais523: try with vnc 01:09:25 I'm trying to connect now 01:09:36 do you have a confirm prompt up? 01:09:42 No, it's OS X not Ubuntu 01:09:55 oh, should I install vnc then? 01:10:00 ais523: do you have a password option? 01:10:06 user/pass that is 01:10:16 I think you may have to input my pass 01:10:20 which I can change temporarily to let you in 01:10:29 no password option on the main connect 01:10:36 I sort-of got the impression that the Ubuntu method asks later 01:10:44 I'll install vnc if you like 01:10:46 ais523: anything in the edit connection things? 01:11:07 no, there isn't an edit connection thing 01:11:17 install a full vnc client, I guess 01:11:23 just a connect button which asks for the IP, and what sort of connection (connect full-screen, do you want to control the remote desktop) 01:11:34 ah 01:11:36 select no to control 01:11:38 and try again 01:11:53 then I couldn't play, just watch 01:11:55 but OK 01:11:58 I know, but it's a start 01:12:10 I just get a black screen 01:12:19 install a full vnc client 01:12:20 /shrug 01:13:45 * ais523 installs a vnc client 01:14:09 it's asking for a username/password 01:14:20 wait, no, just password 01:14:23 yay! 01:14:31 * ehird changes password 01:14:37 /msg me a password 01:14:52 (if me's online, he'll be wondering why I just said "a password" to him...) 01:15:04 :D 01:15:26 any success? 01:15:33 trying atm 01:15:37 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 01:15:45 ais523: if it doesn't work & you can edit the connection details, set username = ehird 01:16:05 ok, I clicked "connect" and nothign obviously happened 01:16:18 okay... this is starting to annoy me 01:16:27 what, us? 01:16:30 DO .1120 <- "&'"¥'":1120 ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ #0' ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ ":1120 ~ '#65535 ¢ 0'"'" ~ "#0 ¢ #65535" is apparently a parse error :/ 01:16:33 o 01:16:41 ais523: any luck setting the username? 01:16:45 no 01:16:54 * ehird changes password back 01:16:56 the entire program's disappeared into a notification area icon 01:17:08 this is very odd 01:17:19 yes, and not what I expected at all 01:17:25 I was expecting it would, you know, show me your desktop 01:17:35 deiconize it? 01:17:41 the session was "opened" 01:17:48 deiconizing it just gave me the main connections list 01:17:56 right click the icon? 01:18:02 gave me a list of connections 01:18:04 boy, I want to hit someone with a usability stick... 01:18:07 ais523: choose mine? 01:18:11 nothing happened 01:18:19 ... >_< try another client 01:18:21 ? 01:18:33 seems like a good option 01:18:54 this is ridiculous. 01:19:04 ais523: let's play gnibbles over irc 01:19:08 * ais523 finds another VNC client 01:19:12 ehird: if only that worked! 01:19:32 ais523: can you see if that works on C-INTERCAL? 01:19:34 ais523: left nop nop nop up nop nop nop nop nop nop right 01:19:53 coppro: OK, I'll test it 01:20:18 thanks 01:21:27 ais523: any luck? 01:21:32 coppro: syntax error 01:21:34 * ehird puts password back to anbutt 01:21:38 err 01:21:39 ehird: trying now, I was just dealing with coppro's problem 01:21:41 or, you know, not 01:21:50 ais523: Okay, it's not just CLC-... now to figure out why 01:21:57 I've rebuilt that statement twice :/ 01:22:38 ehird: I get an error, "You have been disconnected" 01:22:53 ais523: username=ehird? 01:23:00 ok, trying that 01:23:02 did you select Control? Don't :-P 01:23:07 same error 01:23:12 and there wasn't a Control setting on this one 01:23:15 with the new password I gave? 01:23:18 yes 01:23:48 * ehird connects locally 01:23:56 from a vm 01:23:58 yo dawg! 01:24:05 coppro: there's a literal 0 in there 01:24:09 you meant #0, almost certainly 01:24:15 Oh! 01:24:31 what client you using ais523 01:24:32 ehird: oops, I typoed the port 01:24:36 oh. 01:24:51 now it's just doing a loading animation 01:24:58 that's promising 01:25:15 I'd expect it to have loaded by now, though... 01:25:19 ah, yay, the statement evaluates 01:25:24 wrong result though :( 01:25:24 ais523: what client? 01:25:32 gtkvncviewer, the third I've tried 01:25:53 Iwill try it myself 01:26:04 "Expression is (((((? (((:1120 & 0x55555555) << 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)) $ 0x0) & (:1120 & 0xaaaaaaaa)) >> 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)" 01:26:23 coppro: that looks very wrong to me 01:26:40 that left-hand select appears to be selecting all 0s 01:27:02 still doing loading animation... 01:27:45 ok, it just said "You have been disconnected" 01:27:47 just now 01:27:48 ditto 01:27:54 lemme try an os x client 01:29:41 coppro: actually, that might be a bug in C-INTERCAL; it should have noticed that that whole part of the expression cancels out 01:29:53 * ais523 suddenly realises that it probably did notice, but didn't do anything about it 01:31:21 → 01:38:29 -!- jix_ has joined. 01:41:07 ais523: What do those symbols translate to? 01:41:23 ? = V\b- $ = c\b/ 01:41:25 the others are the same 01:41:40 although that's a mix of INTERCAL and C 01:41:47 yeah, I see that 01:42:19 I don't think you're doing anything that wouldn't work in C-INTERCAL's CLC-INTERCAL compatibility mode 01:42:32 although I didn't even have to set compat mode for that, I just encoded it as Latin-1 and C-INTERCAL did the right thing 01:42:37 :1120 is an interleaving of two one spots (call em .1 and .2); I'm trying to get (C code) .1 & ~.2 01:43:11 hmm, interesting 01:43:22 the standard way would be to just translate the & and the ~ separately 01:43:25 what are you trying to do? 01:43:59 select .2 out of :1120, interleave with 0, perform unary XOR to negate it, select the result out, interleave with .1 (which needs to be selected out) and unary AND it 01:44:14 then select the result 01:44:17 unary XOR after interleaving with 0 doesn't negate something 01:44:22 you probably want to interleave with 65535 instead 01:44:29 OH 01:44:35 yes, yes indeed 01:45:42 * ais523 notes that people who primarily use CLC-INTERCAL tend to say "interleave", whereas C-INTERCAL users are more fond of "mingle" 01:46:08 oh boy, that doesn't work 01:46:18 run it through the expression-explainer? 01:46:28 I know what the problem is, thankfully 01:46:48 or I know what it should be 01:47:00 I'm interleaving something with > 16 bits 01:47:05 (or mingling) 01:47:21 both are correct, it's just interesting to see which people use 01:47:26 as in, both words 01:47:41 I'd use the expression-explainer if I was any good at interpreting it 01:47:50 and I don't have C-INTERCAL 01:48:01 what, really? 01:48:12 that surprises me, it's rare to see someone with CLC but not C 01:48:41 I haven't found the Ubuntu packaging for C, and I'm lazy 01:48:47 sudo apt-get install intercal 01:48:58 it's a couple of versions old, IIRC 01:49:13 Version: 28:0.28-4 01:49:15 ah, not too bad 01:49:19 that's the latest stable version 01:49:31 ah, it's just intercal 01:49:36 yep 01:49:37 I kept looking for c-intercal 01:50:00 oh, now I find out I had it all along :/ 01:50:12 the trick is to type the filename, and let command-not-found sort it out 01:50:53 $ ick 01:50:55 The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: 01:50:56 sudo apt-get install intercal 01:50:58 bash: ick: command not found 01:51:01 yeah 01:51:31 * ais523 would be so amused if someday there's a Debian alternatives entry for intercal 01:51:32 how is this an error? '":1120 ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ #65535' 01:52:06 a visual inspection shows nothign wrong 01:52:34 and nothing wrong comes up under syntax highlighting 01:52:43 is that the whole expression? is the statement it's in fine? 01:53:09 yeah, I pulled that out of the other expression 01:53:25 one of the interleaves is producing >32 bits, but I don't think that's possible 01:53:47 nope, you're only selecting 16 bits in the select 01:53:58 so I don't see how the output could be too large 01:54:04 oh, wait 01:54:11 no, don't 01:54:16 you are right 01:54:28 I was thinking of the mingle bit-width hack that C-INTERCAL uses, but the expression looks right both ways 01:54:28 hmm waitaminute 01:55:35 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:58:25 how do I run that expression analyzer? 01:58:45 either ick -Og and look at the output C code, or ick -Oy to run it interactively 02:02:47 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 02:06:21 Where are the debugger docs? 02:08:26 -!- neldoreth has quit (No route to host). 02:08:29 specifically, how do I get it to explain? 02:08:41 the docs are behind the ? key 02:08:43 but e and a line number 02:08:46 will give you an explanation 02:10:18 hrm 02:11:11 oh 02:12:02 interesting 02:12:07 oh, wait 02:12:51 oh right now I remember! 02:14:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:14:46 nope :( 02:14:54 confused coppro is confused 02:15:08 what's the problem? with the debugger, or your code? 02:15:19 I tried the expression on C-INTERCAL 02:15:30 and it too is giving me an overflow error 02:15:39 can you paste the expression, again? 02:16:09 oh, I'm just extremely retarded 02:16:27 you assigned the result to a 16-bit variable by mistake? 02:16:28 I thought it was an interleave error; I was assigning a 32-bit value to a one psot 02:17:46 yeah 02:18:08 this is almost as bad as GCC's C++ error messages 02:18:49 yes, INTERCAL error messages tend not to be particularly helpful 02:19:15 does C-INTERCAL accept the yen? 02:19:24 yes, if it's encoded in Latin-1 02:19:29 hmm 02:19:34 it assumes CLC-INTERCAL source if it sees it in Latin-1 02:19:37 CLC is accepting my code now, but C isn't 02:19:47 if you encode it in UTF-8, it interprets it as mingle because it's a currency symbol 02:31:43 * FireFly lost the Game 02:31:53 well, you don't need to tell all us about it! 02:31:57 I:( 02:32:11 According to the rules, I have to :) 02:32:18 not on IRC1 02:32:20 This is my current surrounding 02:32:35 :8 02:32:37 :(* 02:33:17 * oerjan never loses the game because he forcefully keeps his brain too dense to understand it 02:33:49 NANANANANA 02:34:15 ooh, shiny! 02:34:47 oops 02:35:27 * coppro is surprised he made an easy-to-correct error in INTERCAL 02:35:53 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:39:20 Yay! Addition's working! 02:40:42 oh hey, neat! 02:40:48 what is? 02:40:49 Jaunty finally got the wireless light on my computer working! 02:40:57 ah, interesting 02:47:16 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:47:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving..."). 02:57:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:01:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:05:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:37:05 quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead? 03:38:01 DIVISION BY ZERO 03:39:12 therefore need to sleep 03:39:14 wow: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331# 03:39:15 -> 03:39:27 it's like a Yahoo Answers question, only programming-related and on Usenet 03:40:07 wow 03:40:11 ais523: # 03:40:17 I generally use = 03:40:58 I seriously /hope/ that c.l.c post was a troll, but fear it wasn't 03:41:26 sounds like a good SO question 03:41:38 is stackoverflow that bad yet? 03:42:06 no, the regex one 03:42:11 ah 03:42:32 stackoverflow's weird, if you ask a popular question they interpret it as gaming the system and you get no reputation 03:43:26 my most voted question is "Are there any good reasons why I should not use Python?" (originally "Why does Python suck?") 03:43:42 voted up or down? 03:43:47 up 03:43:52 and there are, of course, situations in which using Python is unwise 03:43:54 ais523: 0x00 03:43:58 but the same goes for any language 03:44:03 ais523, when is Python unwise? 03:44:05 pikhq: seriously? What programming langauge do you use? 03:44:10 Sgeo_: real-time device drivers, for one 03:44:15 Not seriously. 03:44:37 What's 0x00? 03:44:47 probably referring to the NUL byte 03:45:00 which is used for end-of-string in C, and so it's inexpressible to many programs 03:45:18 It's a perfectly cromulent character in Tcl, though. 03:45:19 * Sgeo_ assassinates C 03:45:28 it's the only character, apart from /, which isn't allowed in filenames on UNIX 03:45:33 pikhq: yep, it's legal in Befunge too 03:46:05 Esoteric languages tend to have less of an issue with NUL 03:46:12 because they have no string handling to speak of 03:46:17 however, esoteric language interps are written in real-world langs 03:46:22 and so often inherit NUL problems 03:46:27 Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason 03:46:28 Of course, Tcl doesn't really use characters to delimit regex's; a regexp is just a string which happens to be passed as an argument to the [regex] function. 03:46:29 if there is string handling 03:46:34 Mycology? 03:46:43 Sgeo_: Befunge-98 conformance testsuite 03:46:44 PSOX makes extensive use of NULs 03:46:54 half the conversations in this channel are about it, I'm surprised you missed them 03:46:56 * Sgeo_ waits to be assassinated 03:47:07 it's one of the only large commercial-feeling esolang applicationos 03:47:09 *applications 03:47:24 but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in 03:57:20 -!- coppro has quit ("reinstalling flash"). 03:58:54 -!- coppro has joined. 04:15:16 Ah, ChatZilla, that explains why reinstalling flash required that you /quit :P 04:18:23 No, it doesn't. Firefox uses new plugins without restarting. 04:28:21 oh, it does? 04:28:51 Yeah. 04:37:38 I know my Firefox wants me to restart whenever I upgrade a plugin 04:37:40 is it lying to me? 04:38:06 Presumably, that'd be an add-on, not a plugin. 04:38:24 Otherwise, I hate your distro's packaging of Firefox. 04:39:46 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:07:34 oh, I meant add-on 05:16:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:29:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:42:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:44:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:10:15 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:11:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:17:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 06:56:05 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 07:14:42 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:23:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:37:58 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:47:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:52:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:54:49 -!- jix_ has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 09:17:03 hm. looks like the lolcode project is slowing down a bit.. http://forum.lolcode.com/index.php 09:17:05 Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P 09:18:40 well then... that was only within a second of each other after hours of channel inactivity... 09:19:50 That happens 09:20:18 * Sgeo is bored on Freenet 09:20:19 Ideas? 09:20:43 Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P <-- huh? who claimed that? 09:20:44 unleash your sinister botnet 09:21:03 AnMaster: It's only around 20 lines up the lastlog 09:21:20 I forgot who it was so you can look it up yourself 09:21:45 lastlog... as in /lastlog mycology ? 09:22:02 As in plain /lastlog 09:22:08 It's probably the next-to-last line in /lastlog mycology :-P 09:22:22 plain lastlog gives syntax error in this client 09:22:30 Meh 09:22:30 do you mean scrollback? 09:22:35 It's the same thing 09:22:42 Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason 09:22:43 Mycology? 09:22:43 Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P 09:22:48 that is lastlog of mycology 09:22:50 all of it 09:23:02 Now look at the context 09:23:15 (And you reminded me that it was ais) 09:25:25 ah yes 09:25:34 but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in 09:25:35 :D 09:37:17 http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1138219&cid=26966727 absolutely crushed my fantasy about Freenet 09:38:04 darknet is stupid 09:38:16 using freenet is not illegal 09:38:35 anyone here have any experience with jack-audio-connection-kit? 09:38:56 bsmntbombdood, not here, but I suspect it might be in for example China 09:41:02 the developers focused on completely the wrong problem 09:42:00 What is the right problem? 09:42:55 speed 09:43:22 of both the network and the client 09:47:06 the bbs systems need work 09:47:45 I keep reading that Frost is dead 09:49:02 dosed apparentely 09:49:58 There was a release on 3/13 09:50:01 http://jtcfrost.sourceforge.net/ 09:50:04 Why would they do this? 09:50:55 i would like to see an anonymous bbs 09:51:07 low bandwidth, high latency ought to be easy to do 09:51:41 Does FMS count? 09:51:43 to the point where you can start making guarantees 09:51:54 Sgeo: not on top of freenet i mean 09:53:30 Why? 09:53:37 -!- neldoreth has joined. 09:54:16 freenet can't make any anonymity guarantees 09:54:22 it's all about plausible deniability 09:55:16 How would true anonymity be done? 09:55:46 cf the dining cryptographers problem 09:55:52 and bed 10:02:46 Yeah. One could get true anonymity (at hideous computational expense) by using protocol to solve dining cryptographers problem... 10:06:02 Is there a way to do that without requiring each participant to participate every round? 10:07:02 Well, only participants can send and receive... 10:07:31 Or maybe others could also receive, but definitely not send. 10:09:47 How do I tell what Firefox profile is running? 10:10:03 I'm not convinced that this "Browse Freenet!" icon is doing anything 10:10:22 Sgeo: See which profile has lock file? 10:10:44 Sgeo: Or maybe peek at what files firefox has open? 10:11:35 * Sgeo looks at bookmarks 10:11:51 I.. think this thing found where my missing bookmarks from a long time ago went... 10:12:15 That's the only way I can account for there being so few bookmarks 10:13:36 ...Unless most of my bookmarks spontaneously DIED 10:14:45 ...oh 10:14:54 The Bookmarks menu only shows some of the bookmarks 10:45:11 http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing? 10:49:24 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 10:51:32 -!- neldoreth has joined. 11:19:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:19:19 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 11:24:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:30:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:22:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 12:25:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:52:17 -!- cherez has joined. 13:25:55 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 13:28:45 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:31:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:32:31 quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead? 13:32:58 it's been a while, but | i think, or maybe ! 13:33:09 "? 13:35:43 I use : 13:35:46 Usually 13:36:24 Sometimes I use \ just to be funny 13:36:36 * oerjan greps for *.pl files 13:37:27 my slashes interpreter uses ! 13:38:51 I also use : 13:46:39 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving"). 13:46:48 -!- neldoreth has joined. 14:10:10 I use # for some reason. 14:10:49 And occasionally something like s{...}{...} in Perl. 14:11:45 what's the context for the question? 14:11:48 Though that pretty much only with the x modifier and multi-line expressions. 14:12:28 -!- iano has joined. 14:13:37 i mean in what situation can you choose what to delimit a regex with? 14:13:50 in perl, at least 14:14:28 like s#A#B#? 14:14:34 yeah 14:14:48 okay, guessed correctly, still division by zero ofc 14:15:10 well NaN 14:15:45 also vim 14:15:51 (and probably vi then) 14:16:30 *any vi 14:16:45 sed lets you do it, too. At least this sed. 14:17:27 For the s command, anyway. Maybe not for the address part. 14:17:53 well that's probably for vim too 14:18:31 you need some prefix to know that there _could_ be an "arbitrary" character 14:18:46 and addresses don't 14:18:59 Right. Perl needs the 'm' there -- as in "$foo =~ m#...#" -- whereas with // you can just write it plain, when doing plain old matching. 14:19:18 fizzie: stop writing what i was about to say :D 14:19:37 Maybe you should just write faster! 14:19:48 unpossible 14:20:06 i was actually going to explain this whole thing to myself, but you were too quick. 14:20:26 maybe i should take up one of those touch training games again 14:21:14 i used to play one a lot, then i stopped, and now i'm typing in my normal random fashion again 14:21:16 also, i don't necessarily _think_ that fast :D 14:21:53 i usually tell myself my slowness is because great machinery takes a while to get started. 14:22:04 i keep reformulating things in my head, i think 14:22:17 at least that's good for spelling 14:22:26 i'm just slow 14:22:53 oklopol: THE MILLS OF GOD GRIND SLOWLY, YET THEY GRIND EXCEEDING SMALL. 14:22:55 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 14:22:56 also what's the deal, i'm still much faster than a single finger typer 14:22:57 ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 14:23:14 (Sorry for the shouting, it's just that it needs to be said emphatically.) 14:23:32 fizzie: is that from somewhere? 14:23:34 * oerjan recalls that was the title of an agatha christie novel 14:23:43 oklopol: It's a proverb; there's a Finnish version of it too. 14:23:58 answers.com has some etymotorology. 14:24:21 i should buy a proverb/idiom/word porn book 14:24:37 what 14:24:43 *-word porn 14:24:47 no idea what that was about 14:24:55 (possibly, wut, i'm not quite sure on that usage) 14:25:12 oklopol: Did I ever mention that I randombly bought from a book store the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms? Quite many of them seem to be about male genitalia. 14:25:29 you think a book on porn proverbs would sell? 14:25:29 oxford dictionary? :D 14:25:33 sounds academic. 14:26:03 those oxonians are such dicks 14:26:11 Opened a random page, and it said: "girl^1: a prostitute". 14:26:46 i have that whatchacallit or whatchacallit book which is a similar one for american english 14:27:05 "come together: to copulate". "persuade: to compel through violence or threats". 14:27:11 There are example uses of them all. 14:27:49 well the persuade works, girl i've never heard 14:27:53 umm 14:27:56 well 14:28:22 *whatchamacallit 14:28:22 i can come up with example uses, but i wouldn't actually say girl means prostitute, usage would just be implied. 14:28:37 oerjan: right, both in use tho 14:29:16 i understand some slangs do the reverse 14:29:45 There are quite many in here that are tagged obsolete, too. "break the pale: to be promiscuous; The pale, as in paling, was a piece of wood, then a fence, then a fenced-in curtilage, and finally a district under the control of a centre with hostile natives prowling outside. ... 14:29:54 (use a word meaning "prostitute" for girls in general) 14:29:59 it's not that uncommon among certain groups to call women whores in finland 14:30:17 so what is the reverse of euphemism 14:30:19 ... If you broke the pale, you were somewhere where you should not have been: ... he breaks the pale, And feeds from home. (Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors) [obsolete]" 14:31:59 oerjan: eyephemism 14:32:00 There's a "thematic index" at the end of this book, and the "male genitalia" heading seems to have around 180 entries under it. 14:32:11 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 14:32:18 DON'T YOU GO SPREADING LIES 14:32:26 eye(n) in MATLAB/Octave creates a n-times-n identity matrix. 14:32:29 * oerjan then gets the pun 14:32:43 oerjan: if i *went* to spread lies, then i couldn't tell them to you. 14:32:56 so i'll just stay and spread them 14:33:13 you could have a mobile connection 14:34:31 ah, dysphemism exists 14:34:59 i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun 14:35:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:35:59 "pork sword", "spam javelin", "horn of plenty", "man-root"... even "thing", "thingy", "thingamajig"; anything's a penis these days. 14:36:11 most people either ignore them, groan at them or continue them. 14:36:14 "zombie jesus day" :D 14:36:42 fizzie: well, thing i've heard. 14:37:01 the rest not, although they are kinda guessable. 14:37:12 also spam javelin :D 14:39:22 i liked xkcd. 14:39:38 kinda trivial, but i haven't seen that addressed anywhere, and never occurred to me 14:40:38 "spam^1: a penis; The common meat^2 imagery, from the proprietary brand of processed sweet pork (which is said to taste like human flesh). In many vulgarisms such as /spam alley/ or /chasm/, the vagina; /spam spectre/ or /javelin/, the penis viewed sexually." 14:43:53 Contrary to expections, this book hasn't really been very useful. 14:46:09 An electronic version would be more useful; then I could have it annotate all words of IRC comments which are euphemisms. 14:46:55 Dudes 14:47:07 I try a ListLogPlot on Mathematica, it no works :( 14:48:11 mathematica is plotting against you 14:48:35 You could say that 14:48:44 Well, at least it's plotting logarithmically 14:48:47 So it's slow 14:50:26 "plotcock [obsolete]: the devil; 'Seven times does her prayers backwards pray, Till Plotcock comes with lumps of Lapland clay,' (A. Ramsay, 1800 -- all genuine witches pray backwards, and Lapland was their fabled homeland before being taken over by Father Christmas)" 14:50:32 Okay, okay, I'll put the book away. 14:52:22 but then you wouldn't be fulfilling your stereotype! 14:59:35 -!- jix has joined. 15:13:42 fizzie, what book is this... 15:16:17 AnMaster: you will never know now *BWAHAHAHA* 15:16:24 unless, that is, you find the logs 15:16:54 I could read scrollback, but it seemed trivial to ask. 15:17:06 ah found it 15:17:18 also trivial to tease you 15:17:20 "Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms" :D 15:18:48 Trouser Snake 15:20:23 i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun <-- very good description of fizzie behaviour in such cases. 15:37:30 -!- fizzieds has joined. 15:38:46 * ehird lives dangerously 15:38:51 (messes with fan settings) 15:39:04 although admittedly, just making them run at full speed isn't very dangerous 15:39:22 I thought smoke was coming out of the computer but it was just blowing out dust :D 15:42:55 -!- fizzieds has quit ("ackkkk."). 15:43:05 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:45:37 08:20 Sgeo is bored on Freenet 15:45:37 08:20 Sgeo: Ideas? 15:45:44 Child porn (being the only thing Freenet has). 15:45:47 02:37 ais523: quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead? 15:45:48 ! 15:46:38 09:45 Sgeo: http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing? 15:46:45 Data recovery "experts". 15:46:49 That's their whole business. 15:47:10 "One zero write is not enough to remove all data!" they say. "We can recover it," they say. 15:48:13 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:53:10 -!- coppro has joined. 16:12:54 what, is that true? 16:13:10 No, it's completely bullshit. 16:13:22 Reputable companies don't offer to recover zeroed out disks. 16:14:00 i meant is it true you can't recover a zeroed hd 16:14:14 yes. 16:15:08 i thought you could, even though my brain says it's a ridiculous idea :) 16:15:35 oklopol: well you look at the zeroes and some are like 16:15:38 one-y zeroes 16:15:39 man 16:15:46 it might make sense on weed. 16:15:53 i guess it's one of those incorrect things i considered important and committed to my head when i was small. 16:16:24 :D 16:16:49 err well from a physical perspective it makes sense they might be one-y, they aren't on an atomic scale yet. 16:16:58 but from a technical perspective not so muych 16:16:59 much 16:18:49 one-y zeroes 16:19:18 ehird: also did you know if you eat snot it goes right in your brain. 16:19:31 that's still somewhat true to me. 16:19:37 oklopol: does that like apply to everything? 16:19:44 my brain is currently filling itself with toast. 16:20:13 :) 16:20:20 oklopol: by sort of true do you mean it's a true-y false 16:20:30 :D 16:20:41 clevah man- 16:20:42 *. 16:21:28 why does everything except south park keep vanishing from streaming sites 16:22:14 i mean afaiu fox shows many of the shows that keep getting "removed due to infringement" free on their website, except only if you're american 16:22:23 well in america 16:24:02 ehird: wanna know the exact data i have on hd recovery? 16:24:02 oklopol: because media companies are stupid 16:24:13 you need to remove a file 8 times before it cannot be recovered anymore. 16:24:13 oklopol: as long as it's not X-y Ys 16:24:29 oklopol: you mean your "false but kinda true-like" data? 16:24:47 well I guess it removes a bit from each character of the file each time. 16:25:09 (the real reason is that filesystems just mark the blocks as free, they don't actually erase them, ofc you can just zero out the file before deleting it) 16:25:17 i heard this when i was like 8; never occurred to me it might be *false*, so i spent hours and hours trying to figure out whether that meant the link was removed 8 times, which made no sense, or whether it was about how many times the actual data was removed, which i found unintuitive at the time as well 16:25:25 still, it was an important fact i needed to remember. 16:25:39 :D 16:25:50 oklopol: i wish I understood that kindsofstuff when i was la 8 16:25:59 i only started being non-stupid around 9/10 16:26:51 well. i may have been awesome when i was 6-8, but i was just as awesome when i was 8-11. 16:27:05 i mean on an absolute scale, not on a relative one 16:27:07 * oerjan wonders when he'll start being non-stupid 16:27:22 well 16:27:37 okay i'm still very stupid, i'm just a bit less ignorant 16:28:13 and i've actually learned some media criticism over the years, although i still usually cannot spot lies, unless they are sarcasm. 16:28:24 i mean 16:28:39 well i can spot lies, but there are certain things i don't understand that are kinda like sarcasm but not. 16:29:02 hard to explain, and unnecessary, point is i suck at certain social things :) 16:29:59 * oklopol tries to think of an example to remember what he's referring to 16:29:59 "can we malloc mem at addr 0 so null ptrs dont' cause core dump?" 16:30:01 lawl xD 16:30:13 yeah what was that about? 16:30:20 from http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331# 16:30:23 oh 16:30:24 someone linked it, I forget 16:30:24 xD 16:30:37 "Is your company working on X-ray equipment, or anything that might endanger a human life? " 16:30:38 hah, that's awesome. 16:30:38 :D 16:30:54 i would suggest putting a level of interpretation on it 16:31:00 "iPhone is a success because it's code doesn't dereference null pointers." 16:31:04 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmi think there may be other factors 16:31:06 well that or sandboxing, same end result 16:31:20 "Man, you seen the iPhone? It doesn't dereference null pointers. How fucking cool is that?" 16:31:22 "Sweet!" 16:31:37 yeah iphone is a success because it's so good at what it does. there are tons of things it actually does better than some earlier phone. 16:31:56 oklopol, it makes calls better? ;P 16:32:02 i think mallocat was like, malloc + cat 16:32:10 it allocates a new cat in memory...? 16:32:13 *thought 16:32:28 ehird, it mallo a cat, you miscounted the "c"s 16:32:47 portmaneuvers often drop common end/start letters. 16:33:46 err 16:33:59 so something got stuck playing "soda soda soda soda soda..." on my speakers. 16:34:07 ... 16:34:08 :D 16:34:11 leave it on 16:34:13 it's propaganda 16:34:26 well i closed ff, and it stopped after a minute 16:35:06 ehird, ah true 16:35:12 i think it was from south park's theme song, but the voice that said the soda doesn't sing in it... 16:35:43 odd, I never had sound playing got stuck from website 16:35:46 websites* 16:35:46 so umm internet ghosts. 16:35:57 in fact I never had sound playing from within firefox at all :D 16:36:04 AnMaster: well i use linux, it's kinda common 16:36:20 oklopol, I guess it depends on what (if any) plugins you have installed 16:36:24 bbl 16:42:04 speaking of one-y zeros... 16:42:22 has anyone done an esolang based only on fuzzy logic? 16:42:27 hmm 16:42:29 if not they should 16:42:31 I love fuzzy logic 16:42:38 it's so unintuitive-y intuitive 16:42:42 *there 16:42:45 (should) 16:43:00 especially since "brainfuzz" hasn't been taken yet :) 16:43:21 bah, brainfuck derivatives :-) 16:44:03 ok, "hotfuzz" then 16:44:19 (what the heck would fuzzy inc/dec be anyway?) 16:44:30 just have one operation, ? 16:44:37 which is a decrement-y increment 16:44:43 :D 16:44:53 well, and some fuzzy looping things and IO 16:45:03 the program is executed by the decrements and the increments coming to a compromise 16:45:26 hotfuzz xD 17:05:06 -!- calamari has joined. 17:06:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 17:27:37 Factor's new UI is nice. 17:31:13 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=589 17:31:14 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=590 17:31:15 Oh dear. 17:38:34 hm 17:40:39 ehird, hm a fuzzy logic language, how would you program in it? 17:40:45 By programming. 17:40:54 you know what I mean 17:41:38 Fuzzily 17:42:05 ehird, it would be non-deterministic? Or am I confusing two different things here. 17:42:10 Yes. 17:42:12 You are. 17:42:16 mhm 17:42:58 * AnMaster wants to see some programming examples in fuzzy logic then to be able to get a feel for the language. 17:43:27 something representative for fuzzy logic programming in pseudo code. 17:43:48 Tough. :) 17:44:06 :D 17:45:13 it's like feather then in that no one described it precisely enough for me to get a feeling of what it is like. Languages like that are like an itch (if you see what I mean). 17:45:56 ehird, hm would SQL's TRUE/FALSE/NULL count as fuzzy logic? 17:46:03 no. 17:46:06 mhm 17:46:11 google fuzzy logic 17:46:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic 17:46:29 I did, and I'm reading the wikipedia page. 17:46:31 already 17:47:03 variables would be floating point 0..1 17:47:13 operations would be MIN, MAX, NOT 17:47:13 boring 17:47:18 you should have it baked in 17:47:37 iano, not floating point, arbitrary precision fractions. 17:47:50 and a comparison operator 17:48:03 iano, that's too mainstream 17:49:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:50:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:56:56 Deewiant: did you have used glfunge98's opengl interface? 17:58:06 lifthrasiir: don't talk about glfunge98, it's a shame on fizzie! 17:58:12 Don't think I ever got it to work 17:58:16 ooww. 17:58:17 Not sure if it's implemented? 17:59:14 i'm working on my proof-of-concept funge editor and debugger, to be familiar to opengl 17:59:41 but i want to see how did others do. 18:01:18 Have you looked at Fungus? 18:02:02 not yet 18:02:14 but i have seen the screenshots 18:02:14 lifthrasiir: Deewiant: bequnge 18:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:02:19 bad impl, maybe a good editor? 18:02:20 ehird: Bequnge is crap 18:02:27 I didn't even like the editor part of it 18:02:48 But Fungus has the pretty run history drawing :-) 18:10:28 fungus looks not bad, but seems missing some features 18:11:46 ehird, the editor part of Bequnge have sound effects 18:11:51 AnMaster: AWESOME. 18:12:13 apart from that it looks like a cross between the matrix, befunge, and some educational program about space-time 18:12:36 it sucks for editing purposes 18:12:46 who cares, that sounds great 18:13:39 ehird, it uses it's own fileformat too iirc, not the standard trefunge one even 18:13:44 MEH 18:14:34 and it is badly implemented befunge-93 with some extensions (those extensions being larger size and extra dimensions, up to 105 iirc) 18:14:59 however, it is missing quite a few of the befunge-98 instructions 18:15:01 I want a computer program that takes a number and a computer program and outputs an equivalent computer program, and another that takes the resulting computer program and outputs the number and the original computer program. 18:15:04 why not >105? 18:15:16 kerlo: godel numbering. 18:15:21 ehird, no clue, and I might have misremembered the exact count 18:15:21 and the equiv program is eval "..." 18:15:43 105 is correct, but don't know why. 18:15:44 kerlo: lookup "Iota and Jot" 18:15:47 Well, sure, but that's a rather inefficient way of doing it. 18:16:23 My idea was to use this for steganography. 18:16:27 * ehird 10 [ 2 random-integer . ] times 18:16:32 ehird: Re: sound effects, http://www.purplehatstands.com/bequnge/screenshots/bequnge6.png 18:16:40 Deewiant: <3 18:16:42 You don't want to make it very obvious. 18:16:44 kerlo, if you have a super-tc programming language handy you could generate random programs and check if they are equivalent, and then repeat the process if not, until you find an equivalent one :P 18:16:52 why is that super-tc AnMaster 18:16:57 oh 18:16:59 comparing functions 18:17:03 that's not super-tc 18:17:05 that's just impossible. 18:17:21 It's impossible outside of super-TC. 18:17:42 ehird, are you implying impossible is tc or subtc (false ) 18:17:57 impossible is impossible 18:18:00 that is, "not possible" 18:18:36 actually why is it impossible to do it for a sub-tc language in a super-tc machine? 18:18:44 Deewiant: bequnge looks like a typical IDE, which i didlike :p 18:18:53 Yep :-P 18:19:11 ehird, why couldn't it be "possible". And here I mean "possible" in the same sense Banana scheme is "possible". 18:19:30 i like vim-y or emacs-y interface with minimal but helpful UI elements 18:19:33 AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible". 18:19:36 helpful -> important* 18:19:46 lifthrasiir, you like both vim and emacs?! 18:19:57 AnMaster: to avoid editor wars, FYI :p 18:20:02 oh ok 18:20:19 lifthrasiir, emacs is best of course ;P 18:20:24 * AnMaster ducks 18:21:15 ehird, yes it would allow solving halting problem. But super-tc langs do sometimes have stuff that can solve the halting problem. But why exactly is compare functions not super-tc? 18:21:34 >_< 18:21:36 ehird: then tell us what you think "super-tc" means. 18:21:46 kerlo: a computer more powerful than a turing machine 18:22:18 wouldn't a machine able to compare two functions be more powerful than a turing machine? 18:22:33 that's not meaningful 18:22:39 So, um, suppose we have a Turing machine plus a halting oracle. 18:22:40 a machine that can do such a thing is not a meaningful concept 18:22:50 Yes, it is a meaningful concept. 18:23:03 nope. 18:23:27 ehird, why not? 18:23:37 because… it isn't? 18:23:41 Anyway, I'm putting ehird on /ignore, since I already know that I'm right and I don't need to hear his arguments to the contrary. 18:23:46 can you elaborate? 18:24:08 kerlo: have fun being sure of yourself 18:24:10 kerlo, sounds like a good plan. Personally I'm going afk, 18:24:29 Ehird is considering the sort of things that can be done in reality. 18:24:30 ;) 18:26:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:26:37 pikhq, theoretical is way more interesting. Who cares about reality... 18:27:12 People who want stuff to work, I guess. 18:27:27 pikhq, anyway I guess that means ehird discards the concept of UTMs too, since you can't get infinite tape/memory in real life. 18:27:53 it's fun watching people jump to conclusions 18:27:57 The universe itself might be a UTM. 18:28:17 pikhq, that depends on if the universe is infinite or not. 18:28:24 also, yeh, saying you can't get infinite shit is a rather big accusation 18:28:31 Right. 18:29:21 pikhq, and as far as I remember the scientists are currently betting on "finite but bloody huge", but I may be wrong there. Haven't really tracked the current development in that area. 18:29:38 Betting on it, but the jury is still out. 18:29:41 THE SCIENTISTS 18:29:50 pikhq, that's true. 18:29:52 a hivemind consisting of many tiny little scientists, unified under one voice. 18:29:55 Better than 'the crackpots'? 18:30:05 bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt 18:30:10 Deewiant, ? 18:30:11 BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT 18:30:22 Also, if the universe goes under a heat death rather than a big crunch, its being unbounded in time *might* be enough to make it a UTM... 18:30:37 * pikhq is not sure, having not thought about it too much 18:30:52 AnMaster: Just wondering if ehird had a point, evidently not 18:31:15 pointy pointy point point 18:31:19 funny bunny money 18:31:20 pikhq, but is there enough matter in there to store the state? 18:31:32 Deewiant, oh ok 18:31:47 Deewiant, so he is talking? I see 18:32:08 See this? I'm so cool I only need to reference ignoring people *indirectly*. 18:32:11 pikhq, or maybe you could encode the infinite state in some other way 18:32:29 AnMaster: Really, the question is, can time be considered a tape or not? :p 18:32:33 Man, how can you handle my smoothness. My passive-agressivity is slick as fuck. 18:32:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:32:52 pikhq, that's an interesting idea. Hm you can't go back easily as far as we know today. 18:34:36 pikhq, also wasn't there some theory that the proton might not be stable, but if so would have a enormous half life (if that is the right word for sub-atomic particles) 18:34:47 have an* 18:34:59 Erasing information = creating entropy. 18:35:09 Half-life is still quite accurate for sub-atomic particles. 18:35:11 kerlo, hm... 18:35:28 pikhq, right. My particle physics are a bit rusty. 18:35:30 Therefore, if the universe cannot hold any more entropy, information cannot be erased. 18:35:53 kerlo, that is the perfect backup method! 18:36:20 Unfortunately, the universe is constantly being encrypted further and further. :-) 18:36:29 kerlo, oh right true. 18:36:45 kerlo, at least no one would get your data then :D 18:36:50 Heck, that's a great cryptography method. 18:37:04 kerlo: encrypted without no key? 18:37:09 with* 18:37:09 right, failed backup method turned great cryptography method. 18:37:11 Write your secret data on a little slip of paper. Put it inside a sealed time machine. Have it go forward really, really far. 18:37:18 lifthrasiir, I think it is like printing whitespace programs. 18:37:39 so that's one-way encryption, all right :) 18:37:42 Then just stir the contents around a bit; the way that you did so is the key. 18:37:56 kerlo, ah interesting 18:38:18 To reverse the encryption, un-stir the contents and set the time machine to go backwards for the same amount of time. 18:38:25 Heck, the amount of time could be the key. 18:38:45 kerlo, wouldn't the time machine have a non-zero entropy? 18:39:08 I mean in itself, and whatever it use for power 18:39:19 I don't know what you're getting at. 18:39:22 kerlo: key space can be too small unless the universe expands forever 18:40:00 ah no 18:40:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:40:11 If you run a system forwards for a really long time, then run it backwards for the same amount of time, and any randomness the universe creates in between ends up coinciding, you'll end up with the original system. 18:40:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:40:29 what i said was wrong, the amount of time should be in the exponent and not in the base 18:42:02 kerlo, for every n years run forward n years. I think you could do Hillbert's hotel in time this way (assuming universe expands forever). For every new time machine you need to place at some point in time, move every existing time machine one step up 18:42:19 that is to the next second or whatever 18:42:39 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:42:55 Hilbert* 18:43:56 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 18:53:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:04:38 ( scratchpad ) FUNCTION: void* malloc ( size_t size ) ; 19:04:38 ( scratchpad ) -1 malloc . 19:04:40 f 19:04:42 ( scratchpad ) 24 malloc . 19:04:44 ALIEN: 4806833008 19:04:46 yay 19:05:24 ehird, what language is this 19:05:27 Factor 19:05:30 ah 19:06:08 interesting way to write arguments 19:06:12 stack based? 19:06:15 yes 19:06:20 hm 19:06:58 concatenative, functional-but-not-purely, by slava pestov, has a very good VM with an aggressively-optimising compiler, generational GC, a huge standard library, a portable GUI environment that hooks into $editor_you_like, and that uses files while still being a "live" environment 19:07:00 very nice 19:07:34 with live environment you mean closed world 19:07:39 nope 19:07:50 then what do you mean 19:07:54 live as in you can poke all around the system as one world; often this implies closed world 19:07:58 but factor isn't closed world 19:08:11 it's all the benefits of closed-world while not restricting you like that 19:08:25 (also: very good documentation) 19:09:02 http://factorcode.org/; but if you want to try it out, use the git repo: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Factor/GIT%20repository 19:09:08 as it has several UI improvements 19:09:13 (use the bleeding-edge, not clean) 19:09:48 interesting 19:10:15 ehird, some descriptive example? 19:10:41 sure, sec 19:11:57 AnMaster: here's the graphical tetris game from the stdlib (which contains some examples, documentation, slides from talks about it...): http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595 19:12:12 114 lines of code, well-factored, with whitespace and whatnot 19:12:23 slides from talks about it? 19:12:25 mhm 19:12:28 about factor 19:12:53 so... tetris is in stdlib? 19:12:55 but yeah, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with another environment where you can write tetris in that few lines of code using only the stdlib without obfuscating 19:12:58 or did I misunderstand you 19:12:59 AnMaster: well, not "stdlib" 19:13:06 it's just a bundled module, as an example 19:13:10 USING: accessors combinators kernel lists math math.functions sequences system tetris.board tetris.piece tetris.tetromino ; 19:13:13 you can learn factor from within itself 19:13:16 which of those are stdlib ;P 19:13:22 AnMaster: all except tetris.* 19:13:26 ah 19:13:28 I can paste the other tetris modules if you want 19:13:32 I was a bit scared there 19:13:32 :P 19:13:48 I mean what sort of language would have a tetris module in the standard library 19:13:57 anyway hm, graphical right 19:14:02 yeah that could be hard to do as compact 19:14:07 AnMaster: http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#294 tetris.board 19:14:29 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#295 tetris.gl 19:14:32 ehird, but if text based was allowed I wouldn't be surprised if it could be done as short 19:14:50 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#296 tetris.piece (these are all just helper modules) 19:15:13 ok but that ends up not quite as compact indeed 19:15:18 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#297 just "tetris" module 19:15:28 http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#298 tetris.etromino 19:15:31 AnMaster: indeed, but 19:15:38 the actual logic is very compact 19:15:38 still rather terse 19:15:51 the rest is mostly interface stuff and tetr definitions 19:16:51 AnMaster: oh, and, factor's directory is user-writable stuff, and it works in-tree 19:17:02 so put the git repo in ~/local/factor/ or whatever if you do 19:17:17 so you can't install it in a site-wide shared location? 19:17:31 not that I know of 19:17:38 AnMaster: but that's because 19:17:42 e.g. you can rewrite all of the stdlib 19:17:45 from within the environment 19:17:49 ehird, no distros can have packages of it either 19:17:54 that isn't hard to solve! 19:18:00 just do something like unionfs 19:18:01 it's not like that 19:18:13 the distro would make a "make-factor-instance" command 19:18:14 so you'd do 19:18:20 $ make-factor-instance ~/local/factor/ 19:18:23 it's because it's so malleable 19:18:39 the only constant things are the VM, pretty much; and it's tiny enough that you might as well keep it there 19:18:48 ehird, and that would work as an overlay and refer to the system wide read only base for unchanged modules? 19:18:56 read only stdlib? 19:19:01 congrats, you just ruined factor 19:19:08 ehird, read what I said again 19:19:14 oh 19:19:23 I was suggesting for space saving doing something quite like unionfs 19:19:25 well that's stupid, more work for something that saves a tiny bit of disk space 19:19:27 they're just text files 19:20:08 ehird, hm linux source is almost only text files (there is an small image of tux too) yet even the compressed tarball is something like 30 or 40 MB iirc 19:20:17 well, linux is huge 19:20:18 factorl ess so 19:20:20 *less 19:20:25 ok 19:20:39 I just measured my factor directory 19:20:51 there's the 80MB factor.image; which is the workspace image file and obviously can't be shared 19:21:07 tetris ws pretty. 19:21:09 and there's a few megabytes of binaries 19:21:10 *was 19:21:23 but 19:21:30 [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh core 19:21:30 2.3Mcore 19:21:31 [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh extra 19:21:33 12Mextra 19:21:35 which is tiny these days 19:21:41 # emerge -pv1 vanilla-sources 19:21:42 [ebuild N ] sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.27.10 USE="-build -symlink" 49,327 kB 19:21:42 hm 19:21:43 so, you wouldn't save all that much 19:21:45 and either i'm getting more patient or that was really easy to read. 19:21:46 that's huge 19:21:52 and that's the bzip2ed tarball 19:21:59 yes, well, the kernel is huge 19:22:02 indeed 19:22:04 oklopol: yeah it is quite easy to read if you go through it 19:22:12 I wish they'd start using LZMA'd tarballs. 19:22:15 ehird, just saying "only text" doesn't mean a lot 19:22:25 sure 19:22:37 AnMaster: Text compresses very well. 19:22:43 pikhq, it would save an MB or so at most. And take much longer to compress for a few seconds difference in download time. 19:22:51 I don't think doing lzma would be worth it 19:23:04 * pikhq has dialup. 19:23:12 A megabyte is about 10 minutes of download time. ;) 19:23:12 ehird: what's id>>? 19:23:41 AnMaster: I calculated it, you'd save about 18MB total. 19:23:45 pikhq, why don't you upgrade. It will be cheaper too, I mean dialup is per-minute but adsl is fixed cost per month usually 19:23:51 AnMaster: he can't get it. 19:23:55 ehird, with lzma? Hm ok 19:23:56 They don't *offer* broadband here. 19:23:58 that's impressive 19:23:58 AnMaster: no 19:24:00 i mean 19:24:01 factor 19:24:02 oh 19:24:11 ehird, that's per instance or? 19:24:14 I'm in the US. We suck at broadband. 19:24:15 ;) 19:24:18 AnMaster: right; compared to the 80MB image file, saving 18MB is peanuts 19:24:23 remember that one instance can have multiple projects 19:24:29 ehird, lets say you have lots of users, maybe you are a university that wants once instance per student 19:24:38 AnMaster: let's assume unrealistic shit 19:24:42 and use it to support our arguments 19:24:44 ehird, you mount the base copy over nfs or such 19:24:52 oklopol: not sure, it isn't really documented 19:24:56 ehird, why is that unrealistic... 19:24:57 * ehird looks 19:25:11 oklopol: oh, it's generic 19:25:15 what's it called on? 19:25:17 pikhq, but won't it cost a lot to idle on irc then... 19:25:20 * pikhq goes to check how much you save with LZMA'ing the tarball. 19:25:31 ehird: noooo i mean the syntax 19:25:41 oklopol: id>> is just a word 19:25:45 i do not know factor 19:25:47 oh. 19:25:53 it's like an atom 19:25:55 ? 19:25:58 AnMaster: Uh, no. They still mean "unlimited" when it comes to dialup. 19:26:08 oklopol: id>> is just like hello or chocolate or **ANBUTT** 19:26:13 no special meaning 19:26:14 pikhq, never heard of such unlimited dialup 19:26:17 heh 19:26:32 It's been ubiquitous since the introduction of 56k modems... 19:26:37 ehird: weird. 19:26:53 pikhq, when I had dialup it was pay per minute thing. 19:26:56 oklopol: same with lisp 19:27:00 that was years ago though 19:27:01 id>> has no special meaning in lisp either 19:27:05 Per *minute*?!? 19:27:24 oklopol: but, by convention: 19:27:26 oklopol: For every tuple slot, a reader method is defined in the accessors vocabulary. The reader is named slot>> and given a tuple, pushes the slot value on the stack. 19:27:31 pikhq, well not a lot per minute, but it was per time unit you were connected yes. 19:27:33 ehird: i mean weird how they keep using X, X>> and >>X in the same document without them being about the same X 19:27:37 ah 19:27:39 oklopol: so "foo rows>>" is "foo.rows" 19:27:47 the setter is >>rows 19:27:54 "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x" 19:28:00 pikhq, and it might have been more fine graded than minute, maybe it was per second. 19:28:16 How very asinine. 19:28:17 ehird: when i asked what it meant, i implicitly meant conventions too 19:28:20 pikhq, what 19:28:26 oklopol: right I misunderstood at first 19:28:42 You got ripped off rather hardcore there. 19:28:53 pikhq, nop, all ISPs were like that back then 19:28:57 AnMaster: you're wrong. 19:29:00 I remmeber checking. 19:29:02 remember* 19:29:44 it was like that when I switched from 28k to 56k, it was the same some years later. Not sure if it was still like that when I switched to ADSL (which is unlimited indeed) 19:29:53 By 'all ISPs' he means 'all ISPs in Sweden'. 19:29:56 yes 19:30:02 fuck sweden 19:30:03 It was like that in Finland as well. 19:30:03 that is implicit of course 19:30:13 So, Europe got really screwed over. 19:30:14 And Germany, I think, but not sure. 19:30:18 19:27 ehird: "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x" 19:30:18 "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x" <<< probably+ ">>rows" here 19:30:20 *this should be >>rows ofc 19:30:22 And now, the US gets screwed over with broadband. 19:30:22 oklopol: SNAP 19:30:37 *probably 19:30:39 :) 19:30:44 And it was still like that when we switched to ADSL which was post-2000. 19:30:51 pikhq, I think we have the upper hand nowdays. :P Go get ADSL instead of complain about bzip2 compressed tarball 19:30:54 oklopol: also, "tuples" = "classes" basically. also, it's all multi-dispatch 19:30:56 *snicker* 19:31:06 oklopol: as in, instead of specializing on the magic first argument (the instance), it specializes on all 19:31:16 Deewiant, hm I think I went ADSL in 2005 or so 19:31:23 maybe 2004 19:31:26 I'd love to, I really would. If the freaking phone company would offer ADSL here, I'd have it. 19:31:35 And DSL is pretty obsolete if one wants "world-class" speeds. Fiber is pretty much only option for that :-/ 19:31:38 pikhq: you used to have adsl right? 19:31:44 Ilari: ADSL2+ isn't too bad is it? 19:31:46 24 meg 19:31:47 pikhq, I know a lot of people in US with cable too. 19:31:50 not fiber-speed, but... 19:32:01 ehird: I used to be on campus, and before that, I was at a different house, with cable. 19:32:03 ehird: wanna be more specific? 19:32:09 pikhq: ah 19:32:13 AnMaster: I can't remember the exact year but I know it was post-2000. :-P 19:32:14 8 mbps down is enough in my experience 19:32:22 usually you are limited by the speed of the mirror anwyay 19:32:25 anyway* 19:32:28 24Mbps is not "world-class". :-) 19:32:30 oklopol: lessay python, "x.foo(y,z)" decides which foo to call based on the type of x right? 19:32:39 ehird: sure 19:32:40 oklopol: multi-dispatch generalizes it, by dispatching on every one of (x,y,z) 19:32:46 And on campus, I tended to get my 100Mbps line filled. 19:32:47 e.g. common lisp's object system does this 19:32:52 which fits in with its (f x y z) syntax 19:32:58 and it fits in with factor's x y z f syntax too 19:33:06 oklopol: multi-dispatch handles things like + effectively 19:33:14 as in, each number type doesn't haev to know about all the others when it gets +'d with one 19:33:21 ehird: right, kinda like __radd__ and friends in python but less retarded 19:33:21 because it's defined over (first arg,second arg) 19:33:23 Ilari: 24Mbps is the fastest offered in the US, sadly. 19:33:24 right 19:33:30 And that's if you've got fiber. 19:33:37 that with fiber? 19:33:37 WTF. 19:33:40 Yes. 19:34:28 Oh, and did I happen to mention that there's *maybe* 2 choices of ISP in any given area? 19:34:32 And they both suck? 19:36:04 :D 19:36:08 BOGONS PRIDE 19:36:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:36:15 ( http://www.bogons.net/ ) 19:36:57 guys do you think oklopol's computer from 2001 is 32 or 64 but 19:37:00 i guess 32 19:37:09 * pikhq just checked; LZMA instead of BZ2 saves 7 megabytes from the Linux tarball. 19:37:32 ehird: I guess 32; he probably doesn't have IA64. 19:37:36 pikhq, is that bzip2 --best vs lzma 19:37:37 Or Sparc. 19:37:53 pikhq, and how much longer did it take to compress it than bzip2 19:38:03 AnMaster: That's bzip2 as given by kernel.org vs. lzma. 19:38:05 if you want you can give me commands to execute root on my cli 19:38:09 if they help determining that 19:38:10 I'm pretty sure both are on default settings. 19:38:13 pikhq, in my experience lzma takes WAY WAY WAY longer to compress 19:38:17 And it took a few minutes to compress. 19:38:28 Yeah, lzma is slow at compression. 19:38:37 Faster than bz2 to decompress, though. 19:39:02 pikhq, I really think the kernel devs got better things to do than compress with lzma. 19:39:27 anyway lzma defaults to -7, try lzma -9 19:39:27 stop talking about lzma, it's like the only well-known compression algo our compression course skipped :P 19:39:36 maybe you can save a few extra bytes 19:39:44 pikhq, for a few more minutes. 19:40:05 oklopol, I don't know how bzip2 works either. I can still use it. 19:40:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:40:57 AnMaster: lzma -2 gets better compression ratios than bzip2 and is as fast. :p 19:41:10 pikhq, interesting. How much better 19:41:12 Use ARJ if you want speed! 19:41:14 also bzip2 is way more common 19:41:27 so they would still need to provide it 19:41:32 as well as gzip 19:41:37 Hmm... Wonder would it be allowed to claim that whole zipcode has "Broadband access" if one household there has broadband using 10GBASE-LR? :-/ 19:41:48 AnMaster: why would i want to use a compression algo? 19:42:01 oklopol, err 19:42:03 what 19:42:41 According to this table I've got, lzma -2 on 2.6.11.0 provides has a compression ratio of 18.7%, lzma -3 has 16.7%, and bzip -9 has 17.8%... 19:42:46 the only thing i might want to do with lzma is experiment with variations on it. using a program that's based on it doesn't sound very useful 19:43:31 And that's the one tarball that lzma -2 isn't better than bzip2 -9... 19:43:32 pikhq, yes and? 19:43:41 what about using 2.6.28 instead 19:43:51 Just a sec. 19:47:10 129 secs to compress with lzma -2, waiting on bzip2 -9. 19:47:59 * ehird telnets to its 19:48:48 ehird, incompatible timesharing system? 19:48:51 yes 19:50:16 Alright, 2:12 for lzma -2 versus 2:34 for bzip2 -9. 51M for lzma -2 instead of 49M for bzip2 -9... 19:50:40 lzma -3 will take... A while. 19:52:13 i'ma run the fullest lzma on it 19:52:14 mwahah 19:52:18 oh bzip2 uses burrows-wheeler 19:52:56 * ehird dls linux-2.6.29.tar.bz2 19:54:38 -!- fizzieds has joined. 19:54:43 The main benefit of lzma is in decompression. Decompression ends up taking about 5k of code, low memory overhead, and is almost as fast as gzip... 19:56:09 hmph. i get a "guru meditation error" from dsorganize if i connect to the bouncer, so i have to annoy you with join/quittery now. 19:56:29 how's that annoying 19:56:51 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 19:57:00 ^ see, that was fun. 19:57:24 but it's so... noisy. 19:57:32 6:01 to compress with lzma -3, 46M. 19:57:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:59:52 * ehird lzmaizes 19:59:52 hi ai 19:59:54 ais523: 20:00:41 pikhq: don'tchu mean -a3 20:00:41 hi ehird 20:00:46 er wait 20:00:46 hm 20:00:57 ehird: No, -3. 20:01:01 do i have a different lzma to you 20:01:20 yes 20:01:43 lzma 4.32.7, Copyright (C) 2005 Ville Koskinen. 20:01:55 right. 20:02:06 You? 20:02:34 i've got that one now 20:03:08 Seems that version is rather out-of-date. 20:03:13 * pikhq shakes fist at Gentoo. 20:04:55 operation... 20:04:58 LZMA --BEST 20:04:59 now commences 20:05:18 % time lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar 20:05:28 * pikhq waits a few minutes 20:05:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:06:16 * ehird waits 7 hours 20:09:11 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:11:13 * ehird 's computer grinds 20:12:05 grind some lzma experience points, eh. 20:12:43 you some sorta playah? 20:12:59 compression porn 20:13:08 i have just heard the 'lingo', 20:13:35 i did 'play' that... progress quest, was it? 20:13:48 :D 20:13:50 i love that 20:14:16 what's it? 20:14:26 ran it under wine, i think. 20:15:18 oklopol: it plays itself 20:15:25 it's a masturbating rpg 20:15:33 it's a game where you just look at a slew of progress bars describing the progress of a hypothetical rpg. 20:16:00 i'm sure there's a screenshot somewhere. 20:16:45 yes 20:17:01 :D 20:17:07 that's awesome 20:17:20 can't really browse the tubeswith this silly thing. 20:17:35 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:17:42 s/bes/bes / 20:17:42 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/ProgressQuest_Screenshot.png 20:18:32 you don't have to do anything? 20:18:37 but you see details? 20:18:50 yep 20:18:51 i mean i love watching other people play. 20:19:09 prolly my game. 20:19:35 you have to start it. [i guess you could make it auto-start.] 20:20:17 fizzieds: dude you turned into 2002-2004 again. 20:20:20 :| 20:20:25 your ds is a time machina 20:20:31 yes. machina. 20:20:35 LOL, this commercial says "If you're allergic to Astepro, don't use it." 20:20:37 NORLY?!?!?! 20:20:41 :D 20:20:52 it's this device, it brings out the worst in me. 20:21:18 "Progress quest" sounds like the most boring game imaginable. 20:21:29 GregorR: NORLY?!?!?! 20:21:39 YARLY!!!!!!!! 20:21:41 ice 20:21:41 bur 20:21:42 n 20:21:44 ehird: there must be a corollary of rule 34 that says that some things are sufficiently boring that nobody ever thinks of invoking rule 34 on them 20:21:46 Ice bur n. 20:21:55 ais523: Progress quest porn? 20:22:02 no, compression porn 20:22:11 o 20:22:17 loook at that progress bar go! 20:22:21 well I dunno, all those bytes collapsing into each other 20:22:26 you know, like, I can imagine compression rape porn 20:22:29 i'll forcibly compress you 20:22:29 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 20:22:31 oh shit! 20:22:32 like sorting porn but more hardcore 20:22:33 totally random data! 20:22:40 i...can't...do...it 20:22:42 oh god, it's expanding 20:22:44 hurrrrrrnf 20:22:45 etc etc etc 20:22:48 Make something that, when the lzma-compressed version is interpreted as raw RGB data, is porn. 20:22:58 ehird: how bout some compression visualization 20:23:10 oklopol: you could work that into it somehow 20:23:14 GregorR: so unzip a porn pic 20:23:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:23:42 hi ais523 20:23:50 hi 20:24:02 ais523, anything new and/or interesting? 20:24:44 not right now 20:25:04 oklopol: it's probably in the wrong format 20:26:03 ais523: also l77 tends not to have unique encodings 20:26:15 ais523, btw did I mentioned I finished IftU? 20:26:17 *lz77 20:26:22 Are there any compression schemes that are reliably 1-to-1? That is, if you uncompress something, then recompress it, the original and final compressed versions will always be byte-per-byte identical? 20:26:41 (Even if the original compressed version was a LIE :P ) 20:26:47 well, null compression is like that 20:26:53 What a useful statement :P 20:26:55 lz78 is like that. 20:27:04 wait... 20:27:17 actually you can lie to it. 20:27:21 hmm. 20:27:47 lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar 686.81s user 4.91s system 95% cpu 12:08.12 total 20:27:52 ais523, after several days of more or less constant play. It was *extremely* hard in the last few scenarios, like being unable to recruit or recall for most of them. 20:27:54 -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 44M 23 Mar 23:27 linux-2.6.29.tar.lzma 20:27:56 vs 58M 20:28:03 for the supplied bzip2 20:28:09 AnMaster: ah, ok 20:28:14 "unable to recruit or recall"? 20:28:15 i'm pretty sure you can't lie to burrows-wheeler. but may depend on final encoding, transform is two-way deterministic at least 20:28:23 did you at least get a few autorecalls? 20:28:29 ais523, yes you did 20:28:56 you had to select a few during the forth last (iirc, maybe fifth) or such then hang on to them for the rest of the time. 20:29:05 "lie"? 20:29:27 ehird: give it arbitary input and ask it to decompress it 20:29:32 ehird: Provide input to decompress that wasn't actually produced by the d--- yeah. 20:29:35 being able to recruit a few units at the next to final one again, but having very little money or income and no villages (all those auto recruited ones were set as "loyal" though) 20:29:38 ah. 20:29:42 ais523, and I was playing on easy! 20:29:56 AnMaster: was it classified as a hard campaign? 20:29:58 ehird: I want to make a file that you run it through (e.g.) gzip, and /then/ it's a plain text file :P 20:29:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout_tickling 20:30:00 GregorR: i think some statistical ones are like that, because they're so optimized redundancy will actually break them 20:30:01 (Modulo a header) 20:30:03 ais523, "expert" iirc 20:30:15 also, what was your income source? The 2-a-turn trickle? 20:30:31 ais523, I think it was set to three a turn, but yeah something like that 20:30:48 and the costs were still typical costs of about 18 for a rubbish unit? 20:30:50 that's nasty 20:30:55 ais523, actually {INCOME 4 4 1} or something like that iirc 20:31:11 ais523, the only units you had then were low level undead ones 20:31:15 -!- fizzieds has quit ("readamatings"). 20:31:21 instead of low level elves like before. 20:31:46 by the way, are there any official campaigns where you play as drakes? 20:31:53 primarily, rather than as allies you pick up? 20:31:55 ais523, Northen Rebirth? 20:31:57 ah no 20:32:03 that is only allies in NR.. 20:32:04 hm 20:32:14 ais523, then the answer is: none that I know of 20:32:56 ais523, NR have them as a playable extra side though. Not just AI-controlled allies. 20:40:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:44:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: THIS! IS! RUTIAN! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 20:46:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: THIS! IS! OERJAN'S CHANNEL! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 20:47:02 YOU! MISSED! AN! EXCLAMATION! MARK! 20:47:38 THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! EVERY! OTHER! WORD! 20:47:41 ERM! 20:47:46 THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! ON! EVERY! WORD! 20:48:02 YES! THERE! DOES! OTHERWISE! IT'S! NOT! THE! TROPE! 20:48:09 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8?from=Main.ThisIsSPARTA 20:48:17 THE! TROPE! IS! THIS! IS! ! 20:48:24 Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8; catchy page title. 20:48:36 * oerjan wonders why the heck tvtropes are obfuscating their urls 20:48:58 GregorR: NO! IT! ISN'T! 20:49:06 wiki software shitness? 20:49:25 well probably 20:49:57 i have a vague feeling it happens whenever an article has two titles 20:50:12 ah 20:50:15 why they cannot choose one readable as main title, i don't know 20:50:55 hm wait, the first i checked now doesn't fit that 20:51:16 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoNotGoGentleIntoThatGoodNight has an alternate title, but doesn't fit that 20:51:59 and it's even longer, so it's not url shortening either 20:59:52 afk 21:02:19 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 21:04:56 -!- fizzieds has joined. 21:05:53 -!- neldoreth has joined. 21:15:36 -!- fizzieds has quit ("why is it so quiey?"). 21:20:17 -!- GregorR has set topic: ¡THIS ¡IS ¡TROPE ¡INVERSION | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 21:25:42 AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible". 21:26:04 actually it means "can do anything tc can, plus at least one impossible thing" 21:27:05 oerjan, indeed! 21:27:17 given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis 21:27:29 "being able to compare two functions" is super-tc, ehird claiming it is not is just plain wrong. 21:27:51 in general, yes 21:28:11 it's certainly possible to compare functions if you have sufficiently many restrictions on them to make them comparable 21:28:12 also, assuming the functions are themselves computable, it's probably not even a very high super-tc class 21:28:14 ais523, yes but he claimed comparing two functions was super-super-tc 21:28:16 or something like that 21:28:44 there is a hierarchy of super-tc, of course 21:28:45 oerjan, indeed. 21:28:47 yes 21:28:53 I read about Banana Scheme 21:29:11 which describes that in an interesting way 21:29:34 i would imagine comparing computable functions is somewhere in the first 2 or 3 levels 21:29:52 * AnMaster imagines a super-tc language that could solve the halting problem for itself without causing a paradox. Now that is most probably (haven't thought a lot about it yet) impossible. 21:30:18 yep 21:30:48 oerjan, or maybe this is hyper-tc? 21:30:54 the proof of the halting problem impossibility doesn't care about what extra things you include, only how you can build new functions from old ones 21:31:00 hyper tc == really impossible ? 21:31:39 although you _could_ imagine a language that cannot build functions arbitrarily, but still super-tc 21:31:52 AnMaster: i don't think that's meaningful 21:32:19 oerjan, no it isn't 21:32:38 (hyper tc) 21:32:56 ehird, any comments on this? 21:36:38 because. it isn't? 21:36:47 you are really being trolly these days 21:37:04 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 21:37:31 i mean i _can_ see a way in which what you claim is true and a way in which it is false, but since you refuse to elaborate i have no way of knowing which meaning you are referring to 21:39:55 oerjan: you're wrong 21:40:09 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 21:40:25 yeah really mature 21:40:51 i am merely estimating your maturity level, and responding similarly :D 21:41:14 also i don't claim to be mature. 21:42:00 oerjan: is the structure of all finite groups completely known, in some interesting way? :) 21:42:12 i mean the fact prime sized groups are always cyclic 21:42:16 made me think about some kinda decompositions 21:42:23 the simple finite groups are classified 21:42:31 where "simple" is a technical term 21:43:12 this is also known as the Enormous Theorem, which should be a hint of the work that was needed to achieve it :) 21:43:14 that was not completely my own thinking, i heard something about decompositions on a lecture, but wasn't really paying attention because i was busy reading something else 21:43:34 8| 21:44:02 hmm, maybe there's a reason there's a separate group theory course even though the three algebra courses are already largely about groups 21:44:29 (largely != mostly, but still) 21:44:38 heh 21:44:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:44:53 a simple group is one that has no normal subgroups 21:45:01 ah okay 21:45:12 (non-trivial ones) 21:45:18 ofc 21:45:28 {e} and the group itself is always there, ofc 21:46:00 ofc, ofc. i've done tons of work on this shit, the more you say the more my brain gets insulted :P 21:46:14 you have to be careful when teaching me. 21:46:15 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ClassificationTheoremofFiniteGroups.html 21:46:59 well, since it seemed you had not heard about simple groups, i dared not assume you had heard about normal subgroups either 21:47:49 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 21:48:19 the way the course was taught normal subgroups were pretty much the most important thing 21:49:38 -!- neldoreth has joined. 21:50:56 (the group part of basic algebra 1 was about building up for homomorphism theorem) 21:51:03 (or whatever that's called) 21:51:49 but there was no theory on simple groups afair 21:52:12 well i actually read it a few minutes ago, so i think i can safely say there wasn't ;) 21:52:28 back to reading -> 21:54:44 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:02:50 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:18:01 -!- neldoreth has joined. 22:18:38 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:25:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:27:46 21:27 oerjan: given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis 22:27:48 disagree. 22:27:50 21:36 oerjan: you are really being trolly these days 22:27:50 you're being more confrontational these days :D 22:28:10 you're just saying that because you're an asshole 22:28:47 oerjan: I agree 22:28:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:29:27 how rude of you 22:29:56 quite 22:33:31 So, Europe got really screwed over. 22:34:04 free local calls were never the custom here, i guess given that it's obvious they would do so 22:34:58 for dialup, that is, since it wouldn't be totally free per minute anyway 22:35:18 All OOTS fans: 646 is up 22:36:36 all two of them 22:36:51 oots got a bit too dark for me, i haven't read it since the familicide strip 22:36:57 * ehird plays with factor's irc.client 22:37:34 * oerjan realizes that might be considered a spoiler 22:39:20 familicide? ooh, link! 22:39:22 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:39:36 >_< 22:39:43 LINK LINK LINK 22:40:29 -!- neldoreth has joined. 22:43:33 http://code.google.com/p/libjit-linear-scan-register-allocator/ ← like time cube for jit solutions 22:43:47 llvm is educated stupid!111 22:47:40 "LibJIT has a huge .NET and Java background and huge real world experience." 22:47:52 Is it just me, or does the person seem to think that LibJIT is a person? 22:48:11 :D 22:48:17 that would explain the ranting 22:51:26 "*by clicking you are agreeing to our terms and conditions & privacy policy " 22:51:28 No I'm not. 22:51:55 in the US, you would be 22:52:09 there's a controversial precedent that breaking the terms of service of a website is illegal under the same rules that ban hacking 22:52:25 anyway, they said clicking, just use they keyboard 22:57:45 -!- Leonidas has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- oklopol has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- olsner has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- AnMaster has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- Hiato has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- mtve has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- GregorR has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- oerjan has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- andreou has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- rodgort has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- kerlo has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- Robdgreat has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:57:45 -!- coppro has quit (hubbard.freenode.net 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22:58:43 -!- iano has joined. 22:58:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:58:43 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 22:58:43 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 22:58:43 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:58:43 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:58:43 -!- ehird has joined. 22:58:43 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:58:43 -!- olsner has joined. 22:58:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:58:43 -!- comex has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:58:43 -!- AnMaster has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Dewi has joined. 22:58:43 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:58:43 -!- fungot has joined. 22:58:43 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:58:43 -!- mtve has joined. 22:58:43 -!- GregorR has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Ilari has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 22:58:43 -!- dbc has joined. 22:58:43 -!- andreou has joined. 22:58:43 -!- kerlo has joined. 22:58:43 -!- ski__ has joined. 22:58:43 -!- Deewiant has joined. 22:58:43 -!- ineiros has joined. 23:14:13 wow, culmulative gc time 12ms 23:14:18 that's very low 23:14:24 (total runtime 1.8s) 23:14:32 (and average gc pause of 4us) 23:14:40 maybe it didn't run out of memory very often, so didn't have to gc a lot 23:14:43 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out). 23:15:03 ais523: the benchmark is specifically designed to cause a lot of GCs 23:15:07 ah, ok 23:15:12 also, running out of memory is not what triggers modern gcs 23:15:16 in this case it's a generational collector 23:15:17 culmutative. 23:15:23 very 23:15:25 ais523: There's a far better argument against EULAs. 23:15:25 things like allocating terabytes in a loop, but not using them 23:15:27 ? 23:15:34 pikhq: oh, there are lots; which in particular were you thinking of? 23:15:35 ais523: 23:15:37 : garbage 100 f ; 23:15:37 : garbage-loop 15000000 [ garbage drop ] times ; 23:15:38 First, it's a contract being presented under duress. 23:15:39 [ garbage-loop ] time 23:15:50 Second, it's a contract that no reasonable person would agree to. 23:16:03 ais523: that is: 15000000 times, push an array of 100 "false" elements onto the stack, then drop it 23:16:08 "time" just reports the statistics 23:16:22 Third, *you don't need a license* to use software. 23:16:44 pikhq: you're copying it into memory when you run it 23:17:02 Which court set that precedent again? 23:17:11 Please say it's not federal. 23:17:14 God I hate people who try to restrict digital copying. 23:17:21 IT'S AN INHERENT PROPERTY OF THE MEDIUM, DOUCHEBAGS! 23:18:51 er wait 23:18:59 the benchmark I used was actually 23:19:03 : garbage 1 2 3 3array ; 23:19:03 : garbage-loop 150000000 [ garbage drop ] times ; 23:19:04 [ garbage-loop ] time 23:19:13 which runs 100x more, but makes an array of only 3 elements 23:20:56 lol i stalk u, ehird （　≖‿≖） 23:21:00 ais523: Also, 17 USC 117 explicitly allows you to make copies of software for running it or for backups. 23:21:19 * ehird runs ← → ↑ ↓ ↖ ↗ ↙ ↘ 23:21:32 （　´_ゝ`） 23:21:57 ehird: did you know if you run in every direction in a 2d world, forever, you will eventually get back to where you started. 23:22:15 oklopol: erm a finite 2d world I assume 23:22:26 and wrapping at that 23:22:30 you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes. 23:22:31 ehird: no. 23:22:34 infinite 23:22:44 * ehird 's mind boggles 23:23:01 you mean.. up n times, down n times, left n times, right n times, etc..?? 23:23:05 it's a statistical probability = 1 theorem 23:23:08 well, if it's a Lahey-world, you'll end up back where you started no matter which way you go 23:23:14 even if it's an irrational direction 23:23:27 you're supposed to choose a random direction each step 23:23:47 oerjan: is the proof simple? 23:23:59 i don't recall if i've read it 23:24:34 i think i may have proved it for 1d at some point 23:24:36 but dunno 23:24:47 yeah that's simple i think 23:25:09 oh i thought you menat like 23:25:18 walk forwards in any direction and you will get back to your original point 23:25:23 even though the world is infinite 23:25:26 ehird: right, no 23:25:28 *meant 23:25:29 :DD 23:25:33 'cuz that would be trippy 23:25:51 oerjan: what if it's a continuous random walk and you get bigger and bigger as you go 23:25:57 will you ever touch your starting point 23:26:00 well 23:26:03 i guess you could just have a size. 23:26:10 "No, I didn't get back to where I started, you're just regularly placing start flags every few miles" 23:26:59 i don't know, i've never done much stochastic processes 23:27:58 that actually happens to be one of the quadrillion things i'm interested in. 23:28:49 random walks? 23:29:21 hm i guess these are all markov processes 23:29:24 yeah like hey nice weather outside 23:29:30 i'll go take a walk 23:29:46 and you grab your dies and start throwin 23:31:36 this is interesting. according to wiki, certain random walks will return 'home' in 1 or 2 dimensions, but are not guaranteed to do so in 3 dimensions 23:32:23 i just said that. 23:32:43 i guess i'm interesting! 23:32:49 not the part about 3D 23:33:01 wait i didn't 23:33:09 'tis interesting that it doesn't hold in higher dimensions 23:33:12 you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes. 23:33:33 TUPLE: point x y ; 23:33:35 : ( x y -- point ) point boa ; 23:33:36 well no not so much 23:33:36 120 00 . ! T{ point { x 100 } { y 200 } } 23:33:39 ↑ I don't know why but I love writing trivial examples that I already know I know how to write 23:33:40 the point is 23:33:43 (that ! thang is a comment) 23:33:44 oklopol: it was implied. if you already got it 23:34:23 governed by a property, it seems, called transiency. This is in fact vewy interestingg 23:34:25 -g 23:34:49 vwey 23:34:51 vewy 23:35:00 vewy intewesting 23:35:06 inter-westing 23:35:23 intersexing? 23:36:46 ◔ヮ◔ 23:37:13 D: i go acquire soup nao 23:37:53 the part about random walks of graphs and electrical resistance is also interesting 23:38:24 transiency <=> resistance to infinity is finite 23:40:08 * oerjan wonders if adding diodes would correspond to using a directed graph 23:43:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:44:07 diodes are weird 23:44:17 in practice, they aren't a simple "let current only in one direction" 23:44:27 there are all sorts of other weirdnesses to deal with, even in theory 23:44:39 it's best to think of them as being very different in the two directions, but not perfect in either 23:45:43 Apparently, when Wendy's says "Honey BBQ chicken wings", what they mean is "chicken nuggets served in sauce" 23:45:45 Who knew 23:48:37 :D 23:50:12 ais523: our electronics book had about 50 pages about different models for diodes 23:50:23 heh 23:50:45 the exponential-with-offset model is the best one I've seen, and easily good enough in practice for just about anything 23:51:02 well that's the "physically correct" one 23:51:05 tbh, the constant-voltage-drop model is good enough in practice unless you're doing something really weird 23:51:21 there was some kinda derivation of it, although i understood it not. 23:51:53 most likely, i wouldn't know ofc :P 23:51:58 well 23:52:05 i remember the book said so. 23:53:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:57:45 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.