←2009-04-17 2009-04-18 2009-04-19→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:03:49 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCAL
00:03:49 <fungot> ITRALCEN
00:04:12 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt!
00:04:19 <ehird> It doesn't like me./
00:04:20 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCA
00:04:20 <fungot> ITRACEN
00:04:22 <ehird> s/\/$//
00:04:35 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCALS
00:04:36 <fungot> ITRASLCEN
00:05:40 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL
00:06:00 <oerjan> that's weird
00:06:15 <oerjan> fungot: why are you ignoring ehird?
00:06:17 <fungot> oerjan: to use the fnord engine has trouble with non-local tco, particularly in scheme, besides academic or learning porposes?
00:06:26 <ehird> ^bf ,[.,]!oh
00:06:26 <oerjan> oh wait
00:06:26 <fungot> oh
00:06:36 <oerjan> ehird: initial space
00:06:49 <ehird> :D
00:06:51 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL
00:06:51 <fungot> ABTAUAITRALCENRLCTUN
00:06:57 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt!
00:06:57 <fungot> a re ut!tbnegn
00:07:06 <ehird> I love that obfuscation method
00:07:17 <oerjan> ^def srmlebac bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]
00:07:18 <fungot> Defined.
00:07:31 <oerjan> ^srmlebac Testing, ho!
00:07:31 <fungot> Tsig o!h,nte
00:08:07 <ehird> oerjan: Write a decoder?
00:08:12 <ehird> ^srmlebac Tsig o!h,nte
00:08:12 <fungot> Ti !,tenhogs
00:08:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac Ti !,tenhogs
00:08:18 <fungot> T ,ehgsont!i
00:08:19 <oerjan> coming up
00:08:23 <ehird> ^srmlebac T ,ehgsont!i
00:08:23 <fungot> T,hsn!itoge
00:08:49 <fizzie> ^save
00:08:49 <fungot> OK.
00:08:51 <oerjan> it's a permutation so it must have a period...
00:09:08 <ehird> fizzie: ^save?
00:09:17 <fizzie> It saves the user-defined commands.
00:09:20 <ehird> oerjan: length of message?
00:09:32 <ehird> ^srmlebac abc
00:09:32 <fungot> acb
00:09:34 <ehird> ^srmlebac acb
00:09:34 <fungot> abc
00:09:38 <ehird> Minus one.
00:09:40 <ehird> ^srmlebac abcd
00:09:40 <fungot> acdb
00:09:42 <ehird> ^srmlebac acdb
00:09:42 <fungot> adbc
00:09:44 <ehird> ^srmlebac adbc
00:09:44 <fungot> abcd
00:09:46 <ehird> Yep.
00:09:48 <oerjan> not necessarily, maybe in this case
00:09:48 <ehird> len(msg)-1
00:09:52 <ehird> oerjan: in two case.
00:09:54 <ehird> *cases
00:09:57 <ehird> ^srmlebac abcde
00:09:58 <fungot> acedb
00:09:59 <ehird> ^srmlebac acedb
00:10:00 <fungot> aebdc
00:10:02 <ehird> ^srmlebac aebdc
00:10:02 <fungot> abcde
00:10:07 <ehird> Huh.
00:10:14 <oerjan> it's a factor of length factorial
00:10:19 <ehird> oerjan: Hahaha. Brilliant
00:10:31 <fizzie> ^srmlebac aebdc
00:10:31 <fungot> abcde
00:10:35 <oerjan> well, that's just basic group theory
00:10:49 <ehird> I know. But it's nice.
00:10:58 <ehird> ^srmlebac srmlebac
00:10:58 <fungot> smeacblr
00:11:01 <ehird> ^srmlebac smeacblr
00:11:01 <fungot> seclrbam
00:11:04 <ehird> ^srmlebac seclrbam
00:11:04 <fungot> scramble
00:11:13 <ehird> oerjan: it's most often two, I guess.
00:11:21 <ehird> for short strings
00:11:42 <oklopol> ^srmlebac abcd
00:11:42 <fungot> acdb
00:12:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac Whathogoodsir
00:12:18 <fungot> Wahgosridooth
00:12:21 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wahgosridooth
00:12:22 <fungot> Whordohtoisga
00:12:26 <ehird> ^srmlebac Whordohtoisga
00:12:26 <fungot> Wodhosagitorh
00:12:29 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wodhosagitorh
00:12:29 <fungot> Wdoaiohrtgsho
00:12:32 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wdoaiohrtgsho
00:12:32 <fungot> Woihtsohgroad
00:12:35 <ehird> ^srmlebac Woihtsohgroad
00:12:35 <fungot> Witogodarhsho
00:12:37 <ehird> ^srmlebac Witogodarhsho
00:12:38 <fungot> Wtgdrsohhaooi
00:12:40 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wtgdrsohhaooi
00:12:40 <fungot> Wgrohoioahsdt
00:12:43 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wgrohoioahsdt
00:12:43 <fungot> Wrhiastdhooog
00:12:45 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wrhiastdhooog
00:12:46 <fungot> Whathogoodsir
00:12:47 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRALCEN
00:12:48 <fungot> INTERCAL
00:12:53 <oklopol> 2 for even?
00:12:57 <ehird> oerjan: 9, in this case
00:13:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac abcdefghijklmnopqrst
00:13:18 <fungot> acegikmoqstrpnljhfdb
00:13:21 <ehird> ^srmlebac acegikmoqstrpnljhfdb
00:13:21 <fungot> aeimqtplhdbfjnrsokgc
00:13:23 <ehird> ^srmlebac aeimqtplhdbfjnrsokgc
00:13:24 <fungot> aiqphbjrogcksnfdltme
00:13:25 <ehird> oklopol: no.
00:13:32 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRACEN
00:13:33 <fungot> INTERCA
00:13:35 <oklopol> darn.
00:13:45 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRASLCEN
00:13:45 <fungot> INTERCALS
00:13:50 <oerjan> seems to work
00:14:03 <fizzie> Well, ^def it.
00:14:07 <oerjan> ^def uenlsbcmra bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
00:14:07 <fungot> Defined.
00:14:18 <ehird> ^uenlsbcmra an big butt lmao!
00:14:18 <fungot> a!no abmilg tbtu
00:14:25 <ehird> ^scramble an big butt lmao!
00:14:33 <ehird> e
00:14:34 <ehird> er
00:14:37 <ehird> ^srmlebac an big butt lmao!
00:14:37 <fungot> a i utla!om tbgbn
00:14:47 <fizzie> ^save
00:14:47 <fungot> OK.
00:14:47 <oklopol> ^uenlsbcmra uenlsbcmra
00:14:48 <fungot> uaernmlcsb
00:14:51 <oklopol> err
00:14:52 <oklopol> i don't ge it
00:14:54 <oklopol> *get it
00:15:04 <oklopol> ^srmlebac uenlsbcmra
00:15:05 <fungot> unscramble
00:15:13 <oklopol> huh
00:15:23 <oklopol> oh right
00:15:23 <oklopol> :D
00:15:24 <oerjan> ^uenlsbcmra srmlebac
00:15:25 <fungot> scramble
00:15:48 <oklopol> yeah i just reversed both algorithms in my head.
00:16:17 <oklopol> so what's the cycle oerjan
00:17:04 <fizzie> The cycle-oerjan.
00:17:13 <oerjan> probably length dependent, and only that
00:17:18 <oerjan> *obviously
00:17:22 <fizzie> For those who have trouble running it mentally, I also added ^scramble-^unscramble aliases.
00:17:34 <oerjan> fizzie: spoilsport :D
00:17:34 <oklopol> oerjan: no
00:17:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Not really; for "aaaaa" it is always 1.
00:17:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what fizzie said but without explaining, just saying.
00:17:51 <oerjan> oh right
00:17:58 <fizzie> ^scramble spoilsport
00:17:58 <fungot> solprtosip
00:18:04 <fizzie> I'm a solprtosip!
00:18:39 <oklopol> oerjan: but assuming obfuscating x1x2x3..xn, please calculate cycle length because i need to know it
00:19:28 <oklopol> (by that i meant xi as in character number i, not a variable)
00:19:58 <oerjan> well it goes to x1x3x5...x4x2
00:22:01 <fizzie> Just manually test for strings 1, 12, 123, 1234, 12345, 123456, 1234567 and then feed those numbers to the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.
00:22:08 <fizzie> That's what I always do. :p
00:22:14 <oerjan> heh brilliant
00:22:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
00:22:52 <oklopol> i was just about to suggest that
00:23:05 <oklopol> but ended up not remembering what the encyclopedia was called
00:23:23 <oklopol> clearly it's very unintuitive
00:23:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:24:03 <fizzie> I only ever remember that it's the first Google-hit for "integer sequence".
00:24:27 <oklopol> and i always remember its abbreviation is OEM.
00:27:30 <ehird> ^scramble abbbbbb
00:27:30 <fungot> abbbbbb
00:27:35 <ehird> ...
00:27:37 <ehird> WAT :D
00:27:40 <ehird> oh
00:27:40 <ehird> ofc
00:27:45 <ehird> ^scramble babbbbb
00:27:45 <fungot> bbbbbba
00:27:48 <ehird> ^scramble bbbbbba
00:27:48 <fungot> bbbabbb
00:27:51 <ehird> ^scramble bbbabbb
00:27:51 <fungot> bbbbbab
00:27:54 <ehird> ^scramble bbbbbab
00:27:54 <fungot> bbbbabb
00:28:02 <ehird> That's a nice pseudorandom number generator. :P
00:28:03 <coppro> huh?
00:28:08 <coppro> Oo
00:28:12 <ehird> Whoa. hi coppro!
00:28:17 <coppro> Hi
00:28:58 -!- ehird has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:29:05 <coppro> I didn't even realize you came on here... you aren't in ##nomic
00:29:25 <ehird> ##nomic grew out of #ircnomic, which I co-founded, actually.
00:29:38 <ehird> I have op-related disagreements.
00:30:01 <oerjan> ok, seems to be http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558
00:30:04 <coppro> isn't there some command to find the topic of a channel without actually being in it?
00:30:04 <ehird> (It was birthed out of this place; it's actually what got me and ais523 to join Agora.)
00:30:12 <ehird> coppro: TOPIC #chan?
00:30:25 <coppro> ah, good, it's just my client then
00:31:16 <oerjan> /list #chan is why i use, hm is that the same...
00:31:22 <oerjan> *what
00:32:23 <oerjan> just a bit more information
00:32:51 -!- coppro has set topic: #rootnomic.
00:32:58 <coppro> rofl
00:33:00 <coppro> fail
00:33:07 -!- coppro has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:33:33 <oerjan> oh interesting, /topic gives a slightly different result depending on whether the channel is non-public or non-existent, while /list doesn't distinguish
00:34:33 <oerjan> (checked with #irp)
00:35:00 <pikhq> Interesting: TPB's sentence seems to be having a bit of backlash.
00:35:04 <coppro> indeed
00:35:08 <pikhq> Piratbyran has gained 5,000 members.
00:35:10 <pikhq> Today.
00:35:21 <coppro> Oo last I heard it was at 3000
00:35:35 <pikhq> That was 3,000 and counting.
00:35:40 <coppro> Does any language development take place here?
00:35:49 <pikhq> Quite often.
00:35:53 <coppro> neat
00:35:59 <ehird> Mostly we just mess with fungot.
00:35:59 <fungot> ehird: look at how erlang implements it, given that with it.
00:36:10 <ehird> coppro: he's written in befunge-98: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
00:36:10 <fungot> ehird: am i funny to you?
00:36:15 <ehird> fungot: very.
00:36:15 <fungot> ehird: everytime i read through the presentation, or was it 1024 and 2048 even. sounds interesting, too.)
00:36:26 <coppro> wow
00:36:30 <oerjan> ehird and GregorR were just discussing plof, which is admittedly not esoteric, though it is homebrewed
00:36:39 <ehird> oerjan: Yeah, that's all gone to #plof atm.
00:36:42 <pikhq> We moved to #plof.
00:36:47 <ehird> oerjan: Also, it's quite esoteric...
00:36:59 <ehird> Especially the implementation details.
00:37:08 <pikhq> ehird: It's merely little-known and vaguely odd.
00:37:15 <coppro> Erlang would be esoteric if it weren't for the radical threading model
00:37:24 <pikhq> Unlike esolangs, it's meant for most people to be able to use. ;)
00:37:26 <ehird> coppro: ... which makes it not esoteric?
00:37:29 <ehird> I don't think I follow :D
00:37:49 <coppro> well, look at the thing.
00:37:52 <ehird> pikhq: There's nothing stopping you replacing all the syntax with BF.
00:37:53 <coppro> 4 statement terminators!
00:38:01 <oerjan> oklopol: the encyclopedia description of that sequence seems to have nothing to do with permutations, though
00:38:03 <ehird> coppro: Eh, not that much more than Prolog.
00:38:11 <pikhq> There's nothing stopping you from making Plof into a Tcl implementation, either.
00:38:13 <ehird> Erlang basically ripped Prolog's syntax.
00:38:16 <coppro> is prolog that bad too?
00:38:49 <ehird> It's pretty much identical, but not quite as symbol-heavy.
00:38:53 <ehird> IMO, Prolog is prettier than Erlang.
00:38:59 <coppro> yeah, erlang is ugly
00:39:09 <GregorR> Erlang is awesome.
00:39:09 <coppro> and the only other language for the VM is Reia, which I don't like for other reasons :(
00:39:25 <coppro> Never disagreed!
00:39:30 <ehird> coppro: Haskell has an Erlang bridge, I think.
00:39:35 <ehird> That lets you write and interact with nodes in Haskell.
00:39:38 <pikhq> When Plof is set up well enough, I might make a Tcl implementation in it.
00:39:48 <coppro> that's different from running on the VM
00:39:53 <ehird> pikhq: By actually turning Plof into it? How Forth :-P
00:40:05 <ehird> coppro: Well, what's so hot about the VM apart from the threading?
00:40:05 <GregorR> ehird: Egg-zactly! :P
00:40:05 <pikhq> ehird: Plof is a language that demands it.
00:40:09 <pikhq> ... As is Tcl.
00:40:11 <coppro> ehird: the threading!
00:40:20 <ehird> coppro: You can use the threading from Haskell, then. :-P
00:40:27 <ehird> with the bridge
00:40:29 <GregorR> Haskell has a threading model? ;)
00:40:30 <pikhq> If you will recall, I wrote PEBBLE by making Tcl into PEBBLE. ;)
00:40:37 <ehird> GregorR: I meant erlang threading
00:40:42 <ehird> aka processes
00:40:44 <ehird> aka nodes
00:40:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i guess it would be explained if the scrambling in some way _is_ multiplication by 2 (mod 2n+1), which sounds a bit likely
00:40:54 <coppro> that sounds worse than just using Erlang
00:41:15 <ehird> ... Adding Haskell to something makes it worse?
00:41:34 <ehird> coppro: you've just made an amazing scientific discovery. I didn't previously consider that possible ;-)
00:41:46 <coppro> no, but trying to deal with it through a bridge sounds worse
00:42:04 <ehird> Well, kay
00:43:52 <coppro> BEAM also has single assignment!
00:44:12 <oklopol> oerjan: so there's something really awesome going on in here?
00:44:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:44:17 <oerjan> ^srmlebac 0123456789
00:44:17 <fungot> 0246897531
00:44:33 <ehird> 2468!
00:44:36 <oerjan> the first part looks like multiplication by 2, the rest - not so much
00:44:41 <ehird> oerjan: 7 5 3
00:44:42 <ehird> 3 5 7
00:44:49 <ehird> Right.
00:44:51 <ehird> Not very useful.
00:44:54 <ehird> Wait.
00:44:59 <ehird> oerjan: 3 5 7. Odd numbers ascending.
00:45:01 <ehird> Backwards.
00:45:04 <ehird> So, uh. Descending.
00:45:11 <ehird> 1 3 5 7 9
00:45:15 <ehird> 0 2 4 6 8
00:45:33 <ehird> oerjan: So scrambling sorts it into even and odd sets.
00:45:36 <oerjan> perhaps the +- 1 part of the sequence definition enters into that somehow
00:45:43 <ehird> ^scramble 123456789
00:45:44 <fungot> 135798642
00:45:49 <oklopol> ehird: that's kinda obvious :P
00:45:52 <ehird> 13579
00:45:53 <ehird> 2468
00:46:01 <ehird> oklopol: not to oerjan, see "not so much"
00:46:58 <oklopol> ehird: well. if that partitioning should show why it's multiplication by 2, then i guess i don't understand either.
00:47:11 <oerjan> ehird: what oklopol said
00:47:28 <ehird> well shush
00:47:30 <ehird> i'm right okay.
00:47:32 <oerjan> although point: it's multiplication mod 2*n+1, not mod n
00:47:35 <oklopol> oerjan: would you really say the "well" part tho?
00:47:50 <oerjan> well, i might.
00:47:56 <oklopol> :)
00:48:16 <coppro> oh dear...
00:48:22 <oklopol> wait...
00:48:39 <oklopol> are the 9 and stuff somehow negative numbers err....
00:48:43 <coppro> I just had such a bad thought that I'm almost certainly going to have to implement it...
00:48:44 <oklopol> i mean...
00:48:53 <oklopol> meh i mean nothing.
00:49:58 <oklopol> oerjan: can you prove it's that by induction?
00:50:18 <oklopol> by that i mean would you do that, i don't want to, i just want results :P
00:50:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:50:52 <oerjan> to make it mod 2n+1 you would pad with some extra positions, around the original ones
00:54:38 <oerjan> ^scramble 012345678
00:54:39 <fungot> 024687531
00:54:49 <ehird> ^scramble 9876543210
00:54:49 <fungot> 9753102468
00:55:01 <ehird> Ooh, that one wraps.
00:55:05 <ehird> Wait, no.
00:55:31 <oerjan> ^unscramble 012345678
00:55:32 <fungot> 081726354
00:57:07 <lament> ^scramble aaaaaaaa
00:57:08 <fungot> aaaaaaaa
00:57:15 <lament> huh, it doesn't work
00:57:26 * oerjan swats lament -----###
00:57:42 <oklopol> lament: the a's are scrambled correctly on my screen.
00:57:55 <oklopol> what order are they in on yours?
00:58:18 <ehird> ^scramble bbbabbb
00:58:18 <fungot> bbbbbab
00:58:23 <ehird> ^scramble bbbbbab
00:58:23 <fungot> bbbbabb
00:58:27 <ehird> ^scramble bbbbabb
00:58:27 <fungot> bbabbbb
00:58:31 <ehird> ^scramble bbabbbb
00:58:31 <fungot> babbbbb
00:58:36 <ehird> ^scramble babbbbb
00:58:36 <fungot> bbbbbba
01:07:46 <Ilari> ^scramble abcdefgh
01:07:46 <fungot> aceghfdb
01:07:53 <Ilari> ^scramble 01234567
01:07:53 <fungot> 02467531
01:08:23 <ehird> ^scramble the and
01:08:23 <fungot> teadn h
01:08:37 <ehird> Challenge: Make scrambles that result in coherent english both ways.
01:09:14 <ehird> ^scramble the
01:09:14 <fungot> teh
01:10:24 <Ilari> ^scramble 12345678
01:10:24 <fungot> 13578642
01:11:25 <Ilari> So (1)(2358)(47)(6) for 8 elements, cycle length 4.
01:11:30 <Ilari> ^scramble 1234567890
01:11:30 <fungot> 1357908642
01:12:44 <oerjan> Ilari: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 although that may just be more confusing :D
01:13:03 <Ilari> So (1)(235947860) for 10 elements, cycle length 9.
01:13:18 <oklopol> weird.
01:13:56 <oklopol> that does look a bit like multiplication tho
01:16:36 <ehird> ah I love my scramble algo
01:16:37 <ehird> it's so elegant!
01:16:39 <ehird> :P
01:17:38 <oerjan> yours?
01:18:27 <ehird> oerjan: I started it off
01:18:28 <ehird> ITRALCEN
01:18:30 <ehird> remember?
01:18:35 <ehird> I invented it a year ago though
01:18:44 <oerjan> i thought you were quoting ais523
01:18:46 <oerjan> ah
01:18:50 <ehird> Nope :P
01:20:04 <oerjan> ^scramble 1234
01:20:05 <fungot> 1342
01:21:37 <Ilari> ^scramble 123
01:21:37 <fungot> 132
01:21:45 <Ilari> ^scramble 1234
01:21:45 <fungot> 1342
01:21:46 <oerjan> ah
01:21:58 <oerjan> ^scramble blow
01:21:59 <fungot> bowl
01:22:57 <oerjan> ^scramble 12345
01:22:57 <fungot> 13542
01:26:05 <Slereah> I for one welcome our new robot overlord.
01:42:22 <iano> is BF able to distinguish EOF from a zero byte?
01:42:46 <pikhq> Depends on the implementation.
01:43:44 <Slereah> Isn't EOF a zero byte?
01:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:44:13 <oerjan> there are at least three different conventions
01:44:35 <oerjan> (1) EOF = 0 (2) EOF = -1 (3) EOF = no change
01:44:56 <iano> immediate quit is not an option?
01:44:57 <Sgeo> Bigger problem with my situation: If the entire place requires adult verification, how will unverified people be able to buy my product in-world?
01:45:08 <bsmntbombdood> iano: not a good oen
01:45:28 <oerjan> iano: that makes things such as reversing input impossible
01:45:43 <iano> ok, fixing my interpreter...
01:46:26 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#EOF
01:50:46 <Sgeo> It's probably cheating if I ask what esolang has +| and space as possible characters?
01:51:21 <oerjan> you mean only those?
01:51:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: Adult verification? What, exactly, are you making in SL?
01:51:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, something that's not adult at all
01:51:47 <Sgeo> But my stall is near a store that is
01:52:03 <Sgeo> http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7457/nakedstall001.png my stall is on the right (NSFWishO)
01:54:12 <pikhq> Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p
01:54:21 <bsmntbombdood> iano: or use 16 bit brainfuck
01:54:37 <bsmntbombdood> arrrrrgh my mouse is out of batteries
01:54:50 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: try with cheese
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02:09:53 <iano> is there a ^see to list a ^def?
02:09:59 <oerjan> ^show
02:10:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
02:10:08 <iano> thx
02:10:33 <iano> ^show scramble
02:10:33 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
02:10:57 <oerjan> fungot uses run-length encoding
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02:10:58 <fungot> oerjan: but it works.... any way to delete a value of type a can be any number...
02:11:12 <iano> ah, wondering about those "2" s
02:12:26 <oerjan> strange that it doesn't use it for all the >>'s
02:12:27 <iano> ^show unscramble
02:12:27 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
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02:24:02 <oklopol> <ehird> I invented it a year ago though <<< i've seen that "encryption" method tonswhere, not that it changes the fact you may have invented it, just wanted to use that term.
02:26:08 <oklopol> <pikhq> Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p <<< what's dialup? something cavemen used for clubbing dinosaurs?
02:26:30 <Sgeo> What "encryption" method?
02:26:47 <oklopol> Sgeo: Seog
02:27:38 <bsmntbombdood> ok, got some batteries
02:27:58 <oerjan> how uncheesy
02:28:36 * Sgeo waits for a response from the landlord about the adult thing
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02:29:33 <oklopol> also would be nice to have a more sophisticated referring-to-specific-messages method than copypasting them :)
02:29:44 <oklopol> or not.
02:30:06 <iano> oklopol: http://swfchan.com/7/32012/?56k_modem.swf
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04:52:06 <Gracenotes> hm. I wonder if something like Dasher for context-free grammars would be interesting/useful
04:52:48 <Gracenotes> mimicking leftmost derivation to produce syntactically correct programs by following your mouse
04:53:54 <Sgeo> 0,2528,129312,89888,86016,86016,4064,2080,2336,125216,77568,73984,123136,0,0,0
04:54:15 <Gracenotes> stop reminding me of how much Flash sucks on Linux :(
04:54:31 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
04:55:00 <bsmntbombdood> flash sucks on *
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04:55:20 <Gracenotes> right, update-to-10 woes
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04:55:59 <Gracenotes> 'woes' being an understatement for the sadistically tortuous and ultimately fruitless exercise
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04:56:16 <Gracenotes> or, I suppose, masochistic, given that I was enough of a fool to try it in the first place
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15:53:47 <GregorR> Well.
15:53:49 <GregorR> This is unique.
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15:54:56 <GregorR> Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people)
15:56:12 <Robdgreat> I ignored those particular comings and goings about 7 hours ago
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17:21:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, hah
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18:07:52 <coppro> Phase 1: compelte
18:07:56 <coppro> *complete
18:10:45 <AnMaster> coppro, of what?
18:10:53 <coppro> my seccret project
18:11:02 <AnMaster> uhu
18:11:06 <coppro> maybe I should make it let me sepll better
18:11:16 <AnMaster> maybe
18:11:28 <AnMaster> but if it is secret why are you talking about it here...
18:12:48 <coppro> because it will be revealed here
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18:27:24 <GregorR> Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR
18:27:36 <pikhq> Counter-Elgar?
18:27:47 <pikhq> What, pray tell, does this entail?
18:27:49 <GregorR> Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit.
18:27:57 <GregorR> Although the track just changed, so now it's counter-Holst.
18:28:28 <pikhq> Ah.
18:29:14 <pikhq> Follow up with, say, counter-Pink Floyd. Give them the joy that only progressive rock can give. :p
18:29:24 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.
18:30:12 <pikhq> Not a fan
18:30:13 <pikhq> ?
18:31:03 <oklopol> what's elgar?
18:33:47 <GregorR> Elgar is a composer.
18:33:54 <GregorR> A composer whose wildly underrated, unfortunately.
18:33:56 <GregorR> Well, was :P
18:34:04 <GregorR> Also, "who's" X_X
18:34:32 <GregorR> His music causes you to forget how to use verb tenses and homonyms.
18:37:36 <oklopol> i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical
18:37:53 <oklopol> didn't realize you were that kinda dude although i should've
18:37:55 <oklopol> err
18:38:00 <oklopol> right you corrected youself.
18:40:42 <GregorR> Well, aside from the fact that he's Romantic era and collapsing all music more than 109 years old into the group "classical" is silly, yes.
18:41:18 <oklopol> well i thought i should probably correct that because i'd get some gay comment like that if he wasn't actually classical
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18:41:33 <GregorR> ^^
18:41:33 <oklopol> but then i realized that matterd not
18:41:35 <oklopol> *e
18:41:58 <oklopol> hiding the fact i don't know shit about non-modern genres either wouldn't change the fact i don't
18:42:15 <pikhq> So, you listen to less-than-recent music.
18:43:18 <GregorR> "less-than-recent" X-D
18:43:32 <GregorR> Yes, I listen exclusively to 80s music X-P
18:44:06 <pikhq> Wow, the decade I almost completely skip over!
18:44:11 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit. <-- :D
18:47:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm, wouldn't Beethoven work better than Elgar in this case? Lets say his no.5 :D
18:47:22 <AnMaster> first movment
18:47:26 <GregorR> I'm just shuffling my playlist *shrugs*
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18:48:00 <pikhq> Music from 109 years and older is music that I enjoy when I hear it, but I don't have any of it, so I don't know much about it...
18:48:01 <GregorR> I'm on Beethoven's symphony 4 now, which also isn't /hugely/ suited to the purpose of drowning out their garbage.
18:48:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what do you listen to when it comes to what is popularly called "classical" (of course it is the wrong word, but I don't know any better either)
18:48:23 <pikhq> And therefore, I end up not knowing where to start.
18:49:00 <GregorR> AnMaster: My favorite is the 19th century Russian composers, e.g. Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Balakirev, etc.
18:49:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, personally I rather like the actually classical music. Mozart, Haydn, Kraus and so on
18:49:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm... haven't listened much to them.
18:49:52 <AnMaster> the names do ring bells though.
18:50:16 <GregorR> Go find Borodin's Nocturne ... argh, right now I don't remember exactly which nocturne it is, one sec.
18:50:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, Borodin... Hm some opera "Furst <something>"?
18:50:37 <AnMaster> or was that someone else
18:50:44 <GregorR> Right, nocturne from string quartet #2
18:50:51 <GregorR> Doesn't ring a bell ...
18:50:54 <AnMaster> mhm
18:51:32 <AnMaster> ah it is the Swedish name for it...
18:51:44 <AnMaster> "Prince Igor" in English
18:51:48 <GregorR> Oh yeah, that's him.
18:51:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Igor
18:52:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, ever listened to Kraus?
18:52:14 <M0ny> Князь Игорь :D
18:52:24 <GregorR> Yeah, but I don't own anything by him.
18:52:25 <oerjan> <GregorR> Doesn't ring a bell ... <<< with classical music, there's probably some way to make that a pun
18:52:39 <AnMaster> I can highly recommend Kraus' Sinfonia in C sharp minor. (VB 140 iirc)
18:53:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, Especially the fourth movement in it. Somehow reminds me of the last movement in Vivaldi's Summer.
18:53:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: OK, you listen to Borodin's nocturne and I'll listen to that :P
18:54:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I think I have a CD with mixed Russian composers. Let me check if it is on there. brb
18:54:49 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSdMKJqnnW4 <-- I believe this is it
18:54:58 <GregorR> Just searched on youtube, haven't started listening to check :P
18:55:10 <oerjan> <GregorR> Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people)
18:55:15 <GregorR> Yup, that's it.
18:55:23 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Right, nocturne from string quartet #2
18:55:23 <oerjan> i was starting to wonder if clog was acting up again
18:55:26 <AnMaster> which movement?
18:55:34 <oerjan> but no whole hours seem missing
18:55:38 <GregorR> The nocturne is a movement :P
18:55:39 <GregorR> #3
18:55:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, then I have it on that cd
18:55:56 <GregorR> Awesome.
18:56:19 <GregorR> It's probably Borodin's most popular piece, but for good reason.
18:57:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, as for Kraus' VB 140 (fourth movement: Allegro). I couldn't find it on youtube when I looked some time ago. I do have it on cd
18:57:21 <GregorR> I don't X-P
18:57:48 <oerjan> <GregorR> Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR
18:57:57 * oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory"
18:58:09 <oerjan> mind you, that's the only Elgar i know
18:58:27 <GregorR> Unfortunately, your whistling does not appear to have reached here.
18:58:39 <GregorR> Hahahah, they left! I win!
18:58:40 <oerjan> i can do little about that
18:59:45 <AnMaster> I might have found it on there. *checks if it is good quality*
18:59:51 <oklopol> GregorR: i guess toss the nerd isn't popular anymore
19:00:03 * oerjan used to watch the promenade concert, long ago when he actually watched tv
19:00:13 <GregorR> oklopol: The prerequisite "break into somebody's apartment" isn't so popular
19:01:07 <oklopol> GregorR: right, i guess i'm old-fashioned.
19:01:19 <oklopol> oerjan: do you own a tv?
19:01:28 <oerjan> technically, yes
19:01:55 <oklopol> i never used to watch tv, but nowadays it's always on in my favorite pizza place :|
19:02:10 <AnMaster> hm
19:02:25 <oklopol> and when it's not, there's usually a newspaper, which ofc is even worse
19:02:50 * GregorR watches TV until pinkish-grey goo starts to melt out of his ears.
19:03:28 * oerjan still reads newspapers at his favorite place too
19:03:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, seems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=18 to contain two variant of it, first Kraus' reworked variant in C minor, followed by the one I prefer: the original in C sharp minor.
19:03:49 <oerjan> they do have a tv but it's in the children's corner and only plays dvd movies
19:03:53 <AnMaster> it is only the last movement in both
19:04:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: What a weird way to post that, then :P
19:04:16 <pikhq> TV? Isn't that the low-resolution monitor with a DVD player hooked up to it that's near the couch?
19:04:19 <oklopol> oerjan: i'd probably prefer the kids' movies.
19:04:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes
19:04:48 <oerjan> oklopol: well, there _are_ several children's movies i've only seen on that tv :D
19:04:52 <coppro> pikhq: probably
19:05:05 <oklopol> :)
19:05:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, also this is not the best recording I heard. I prefer the one I have on CD (by the Swedish Chamber Orchestra) which feels more "stormy" kind of.
19:07:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what do you think of them?
19:07:35 * AnMaster is listening to that nocturne atm
19:07:50 <GregorR> I just started listening. Was stupidly plodding around trying to find the start of the second one, but instead I'm just listening through both.
19:07:58 <GregorR> This is most certainly classical music.
19:08:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, he died one or two years after Mozart did iirc
19:09:07 <oerjan> <oklopol> i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical
19:09:26 <oerjan> it _does_ sound like a good name for a moose, especially to norwegians :)
19:09:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, you never heard of Elgar before!?
19:10:04 <oklopol> norwegian for moose? i think i have a pen that has a picture of a moose and elg under it
19:10:13 <GregorR> ... there are Meese in Norway?
19:10:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: <* oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory"
19:10:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, no, elks
19:10:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh ok, didn't see that
19:10:48 <oerjan> i thought moose and elk were mostly synonyms
19:11:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think they differ in size or?
19:11:17 <AnMaster> moose being the larger Canadian ones
19:11:19 <GregorR> AnMaster: The end of one going into the beginning of the next was a bit jarring there X-D
19:11:21 <AnMaster> maybe I'm mistaken
19:11:36 <GregorR> The moose (North America) or elk (Europe), Alces alces, is the largest extant species in the deer family.
19:11:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, there was a pause between them
19:11:54 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, but not so long that the key change didn't make me go "gwar!"
19:12:01 <GregorR> I had no idea elk and meese were the same.
19:12:11 <AnMaster> moose not "meese"
19:12:13 <AnMaster> ...
19:12:20 <GregorR> I know, but "meese" is so much funnier.
19:12:24 <AnMaster> oh
19:12:43 <oerjan> GregorR: also, elk in north america is used for a different animal too
19:12:56 <oerjan> says that wp article
19:12:56 <GregorR> "Confusingly, the word elk in North America refers to the second largest deer species, Cervus canadensis, also known as the wapiti." <-- yeah, that's why
19:13:06 <AnMaster> GregorR, well what do you think of the second one? As I said, not the best recording I heard, but quite ok. And it is really a lot better experience hearing the entire symphony in the right order.
19:13:08 <GregorR> 'cuz I know of that Elk, and didn't think they were meese.
19:13:14 <GregorR> Because they're not.
19:13:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: I agree that the original was better.
19:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, this nocturne is quite nice.
19:13:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: Both good though.
19:13:40 <oklopol> sofar the kraus piece sounds like a random collection of trivial etudes
19:14:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, see what I meant when I said it made me think of the last movement in Vivaldi's summer?
19:14:25 <oklopol> that usually means i need to listen to it a few more times, but i prefer just saying because i like disliking old stuff.
19:14:25 <GregorR> Yeah
19:14:36 <oklopol> *it
19:14:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh I love Vivaldi's summer too btw :)
19:15:02 <AnMaster> "<oklopol> *it" err -> <oklopol> that usually means it need to listen to it a few more times, but it prefer just saying because it like disliking old stuff.
19:15:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: try again.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> hm
19:16:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, the original makes sense, none of the changed versions do
19:16:07 <oklopol> hint: something's missing an object
19:16:16 <AnMaster> "saying it"?
19:16:22 <oklopol> yes
19:16:53 <GregorR> When correcting yourself goes wrong.
19:17:16 <AnMaster> anyway you really need to listen to all four movements of VB 140 to get the right experience.
19:17:29 <oerjan> also, http://www.halge.com/
19:17:32 <AnMaster> they build upon each other very nicely
19:17:38 <oklopol> the second version is great btw, not that i wouldn't known they :D
19:17:40 <oklopol> 're the same
19:17:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought Hälge was Swedish?
19:17:46 <oklopol> *would've
19:17:47 <oklopol> grr
19:18:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, fail to parse correction
19:18:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, pretty sure it is Swedish even
19:18:33 <oklopol> well let's try again
19:18:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, so?
19:18:36 <oklopol> the second version is great
19:18:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, right
19:18:49 <oklopol> but i didn't recognize the beginning to be the same as the first one
19:18:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought you implied it was Norwegian
19:18:53 <oerjan> also, he's been translated to norwegian and i've read some in the library
19:18:58 <AnMaster> misread you
19:19:07 <oklopol> although i did recognize the stuff after that
19:20:25 <GregorR> Swedish, Norwegian, 'ts all "European" to me.
19:20:28 <GregorR> ;)
19:20:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, and yes it isn't simply transposed, there are some minor other changes
19:23:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, I liked that nocturne btw, though I prefer music from the classical era.
19:24:08 <AnMaster> back to figuring out how to select a non GM bank by midi on this keyboard.
19:24:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: you compose right
19:25:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, but I play.
19:25:29 <oklopol> oh.
19:26:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't have the creative part needed for composing I guess. I wouldn't know where to start. Improvising (which I can do but I'm not very good at) maybe?
19:27:51 <oklopol> err i think when i was a kid i usually took a random chord sequence, and improvised on it until something came out
19:28:00 <oklopol> nowadays i tell my brain to gimme a song
19:28:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, the reason I was checking this out is that I recently (few days ago) got a new electrical piano. Unlike my old electrical piano, this one is full size and the keys feel much more like a real piano. And the sound is much more realistic too. Downside: way heavier than the old one.
19:29:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, interesting.
19:29:03 <oklopol> another thing you can do is make variations on existing songs.
19:29:41 <AnMaster> hm, ok
19:30:02 <oklopol> i has a 3000€ electrical piano, a 300€ synthesizer and a very expensive piano (not mine) here
19:30:48 <oklopol> i have another electrical piano, but it's kinda unused atm
19:30:55 * AnMaster tries making a variation of this russian folk song by Beethoven for which he happened to have the music sheet within reach.
19:31:31 <AnMaster> urgh. that didn't work out very well.
19:31:47 <oklopol> :P
19:31:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I can't translate € to SEK
19:31:54 <AnMaster> meh
19:32:03 <oklopol> err i think the course was like 10:1 at some point
19:32:10 <oklopol> but dunno
19:32:13 <oklopol> maybe not.
19:32:42 <AnMaster> google says 3000€ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago
19:33:04 <oklopol> anyway i used to have pretty explicit techniques for composing, unfortunately i don't anymore.
19:33:09 <AnMaster> well slightly more than twice
19:33:35 <oklopol> the only explicit thing i do is deciding to use a certain element and tell my brain to gimme a song that uses it :P
19:34:27 <oklopol> (i compose all the time compulsively)
19:34:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=3000+EUR+in+SEK&meta=&aq=f&oq=
19:34:53 <AnMaster> oerjan: <AnMaster> google says 3000€ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago
19:35:21 <oerjan> well, stop contradicting yourself
19:35:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I noticed I did have a browser window open after I said it
19:35:45 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have waited for someone else
19:36:18 <oklopol> when i bought it, the models that were better were only different in that they had this "adjusting to surroundings" thing where you left them alone for 30 minutes to play alone and learn how to sound like a grand piano in a small room.
19:38:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, mine certainly doesn't have it
19:38:32 <AnMaster> it is a rather basic Roland FP-4
19:38:53 <oklopol> mine is a yamaha i think. but dunno. not really into details.
19:38:55 <AnMaster> but I'm very happy with it
19:39:05 <oerjan> oklopol: sounds like a megalomaniac AI. are you sure this is safe?
19:39:30 <oklopol> oerjan: there's a reason i didn't buy one.
19:39:50 <oerjan> good, good.
19:39:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, also it is way more money that I would like to put on an electrical piano. :P
19:40:05 <AnMaster> in fact more than I could afford
19:40:31 <oklopol> the best ones would've been like 5000
19:40:46 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:41:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, I wouldn't be able to afford that.
19:42:01 <oklopol> well, my parents had jobs at the time.
19:42:23 <oklopol> 3000 is nothing if you have a job.
19:42:49 <oklopol> i mean i get like 400 a month and i could afford that easily
19:43:18 <oklopol> maybe even two of them, although admittedly that would be an outrageous lie.
19:45:30 -!- ehird has left (?).
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19:45:51 -!- ehird has left (?).
19:45:56 -!- ehird has joined.
19:51:14 <ehird> 17:10 coppro: my seccret project
19:51:19 <ehird> secrete copprophilia
19:55:08 <oerjan> ehird you like nick puns, so...
19:55:21 <ehird> i'm nickophilic!
19:55:27 <ehird> ^___________^
19:56:59 <oklopol> nickopath
20:12:24 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:34:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:34:45 * AnMaster wonders about 1/1 for music.
20:35:02 <AnMaster> never seen that
20:35:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You could do one syllable lyrics.
20:35:18 <ehird> "I like cake"
20:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, true
20:35:36 <ehird> It wouldn't be much of a rhythm. More a plod.
20:35:37 <ehird> Hi ais523.
20:35:39 <ais523> hi
20:36:04 <AnMaster> ehird, or you could a different meter for the lyrics than the music. And call it "experimental modernistic" or something like that
20:36:28 <ehird> Ehh, I have songs with instruments playing in different time signatures.
20:36:56 <AnMaster> ah, you managed to confuse me there.
20:37:03 <ehird> Wut.
20:37:07 <AnMaster> meh
20:37:18 <ehird> AnMaster: wut?
20:37:23 <AnMaster> meh!
20:37:31 <ehird> Meh‽
20:37:46 <AnMaster> quux
20:37:52 <oerjan> weapons of uzbek terrorists
20:38:25 <ehird> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES6DSbPBBSE ← this has multiple instruments playing simultaneously in different time signatures, although admittedly calculated so they sync up)
20:41:28 <AnMaster> how are those video ids on youtube decided?
20:42:11 <AnMaster> is it some form of checksum? Or just a ever-increasing counter?
20:42:22 <coppro> Probably randomly (UUID or the like)
20:42:26 <ehird> semi-random or checksum
20:42:28 <AnMaster> ah
20:42:31 <ehird> err, not semi-random, random
20:42:32 <ehird> :P
20:42:35 <ehird> base 36
20:42:38 <AnMaster> pseudo-random even
20:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm 36?
20:42:49 <ehird> maybe they use radioactive decay
20:42:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: given that the id is the _only_ distinguishing part, you'd think they would need to avoid collisions
20:42:52 <ehird> AnMaster: err wait
20:42:54 <coppro> It's not 36, there's upper and lowercase letters
20:42:58 <ehird> right
20:42:58 <ehird> 62
20:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I think upper case, lower case, numbers, _ and - are all allowed
20:43:04 <ehird> oh right
20:43:08 <coppro> yeah, I would guess 64
20:43:08 <ehird> 64
20:43:12 <AnMaster> possibly other symbols too
20:43:13 <oerjan> so a deterministic checksum would not work
20:43:13 <ehird> power of two
20:43:14 <AnMaster> indeed
20:43:14 <ehird> makes sense
20:43:31 <coppro> usually for this stuff you just make it random and repick when you find a collision
20:43:42 <AnMaster> right
20:43:45 <ais523> hi coppro, I was wondering when you'd turn up over here
20:43:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
20:43:54 <ais523> and hi AnMaster
20:44:20 <coppro> ais523: as soon as I discovered it in a /whois
20:44:57 <ais523> I should have mentioned it earlier when you started talking about INTERCAL-variant Baudot, I suspect only about 10 people know of that
20:45:17 * AnMaster is listening to this electrical piano playing Arabesque very well (built in demo song thing, why do they include that? Do they think someone would buy a electrical piano because it has 67 built in demo songs?)
20:45:38 <oerjan> ^srmlebac As requested...
20:45:39 <fungot> A euse...dteqrs
20:45:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, srmlebac?
20:46:07 <AnMaster> ^srmlebac srmlebac
20:46:08 <fungot> smeacblr
20:46:14 <AnMaster> ^srmlebac smeacblr
20:46:14 <fungot> seclrbam
20:46:25 <coppro> ^srmlebac srmlebac
20:46:26 <fungot> smeacblr
20:46:31 <coppro> wait...
20:46:37 * coppro facepalms
20:46:39 <AnMaster> what is this encoding
20:46:43 <oerjan> :D
20:46:45 <coppro> ^srmlebac 123456
20:46:45 <AnMaster> rotation?
20:46:46 <fungot> 135642
20:46:47 <AnMaster> no
20:47:00 <AnMaster> transposing somehting
20:47:11 <coppro> ^srmlebac seclrbam
20:47:12 <fungot> scramble
20:47:14 <coppro> there we o
20:47:15 <AnMaster> ah
20:47:16 <coppro> *go
20:47:26 <AnMaster> so how does it scramble?
20:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: easy
20:47:39 <coppro> ^srmlebac 1234567890
20:47:40 <ehird> abc -> acb
20:47:40 <fungot> 1357908642
20:47:43 <ehird> take first character, type
20:47:47 <ehird> take next character, type
20:47:48 <ehird> move left one
20:47:53 <coppro> {13579}{08642}
20:47:54 <AnMaster> ah
20:47:54 <ehird> abcdefg -> acegfdb
20:47:57 <ehird> ^scramble abcdefg
20:47:58 <fungot> acegfdb
20:48:00 <AnMaster> right
20:48:02 <ehird> ^unscramble acegfdb
20:48:02 <fungot> abcdefg
20:48:07 <AnMaster> meh
20:48:15 <AnMaster> ^show
20:48:16 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
20:48:21 <AnMaster> ^help
20:48:21 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:48:25 <fizzie> You could've done just that.
20:48:27 <fizzie> ^uenlsbcmra srmlebac
20:48:27 <fungot> scramble
20:48:33 <fizzie> To see where it came from.
20:48:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble was a dead giveaway anyway
20:49:08 <fizzie> Yes, I added the "plaintext" aliases so it's easier to remember.
20:50:04 <AnMaster> ^show scramble
20:50:05 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
20:50:09 <AnMaster> ^show unscramble
20:50:10 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
20:50:13 <AnMaster> mhm
20:50:22 <coppro> what's with the 2[ 2]?
20:50:33 <oklopol> 2[ 2]?
20:50:37 <AnMaster> coppro, internal data for loops iirc
20:50:41 <AnMaster> don't remember details
20:51:37 <oerjan> actually <2 = <<
20:51:42 <AnMaster> ah
20:51:43 <coppro> ah
20:51:52 <oklopol> oh scramble's source
20:51:53 <oklopol> right
20:51:54 <AnMaster> why wasn't >> turned into >2
20:51:55 <AnMaster> then
20:51:57 <oerjan> fizzie: you know why it replaces the << but not the >> ?
20:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged.
20:52:27 <AnMaster> your client I mean
20:52:31 <oklopol> lagged in the head
20:52:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Not really; I wondered about that, too.
20:52:39 <oerjan> 1 second
20:52:54 <oerjan> but i didn't check after typing the line before pressing return
20:53:06 <fizzie> oerjan: It should replace both. There might be a: bug.
20:53:37 <FireFly> [21:52:17] <AnMaster> oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged.
20:53:46 <FireFly> Actually, three seconds
20:53:55 <FireFly> For me, at least
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20:54:19 <ehird> ^unscramble unscramble
20:54:19 <fungot> uenlsbcmra
20:54:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, i pointed it out yesterday too, so you are enormously lagged ;)
20:54:26 <ehird> which is the unscramble cmd name ofc
20:55:09 <fizzie> ^def test bf <<<>>>+++---
20:55:09 <fungot> Defined.
20:55:10 <ais523> is that a reversible operatoin?
20:55:11 <fizzie> ^show test
20:55:11 <fungot> <3>>>+3-3
20:55:14 <ais523> *operation
20:55:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, "a: bug" :D
20:55:21 <ais523> ^unscramble uenlsbcmra
20:55:22 <fungot> uaernmlcsb
20:55:23 <fizzie> Yes, there seems to be some sort of bug wrt. >.
20:55:24 <ais523> apparently not
20:55:32 <ais523> ^unscramble uaernmlcsb
20:55:32 <fungot> ubasecrlnm
20:55:41 <ais523> ^unscrable ubasecrlnm
20:55:44 <ais523> ^unscramble ubasecrlnm
20:55:44 <fungot> umbnalsrec
20:55:45 <oerjan> ais523: of course it's reversible, but not self-inverse
20:55:50 <ais523> ^unscramble umbnalsrec
20:55:50 <fungot> ucmebrnsal
20:55:55 <ais523> self-inverse is what I was thinking of
20:55:59 <ais523> ^unscramble ucmebrnsal
20:55:59 <fungot> ulcamsenbr
20:56:04 <ais523> ^unscramble ulcamsenbr
20:56:04 <fungot> urlbcnaems
20:56:09 <ais523> ^unscramble urlbcnaems
20:56:09 <fungot> usrmlebacn
20:56:09 <fizzie> ais523: Why would we have two instructions if it was a self-inverse?
20:56:11 <oerjan> ais523: we discussed cycle lengths yesterday
20:56:15 <ais523> ^unscramble usrmlebacn
20:56:15 <fungot> unscramble
20:56:15 <ehird> yeah
20:56:16 <AnMaster> ais523, self inverse<q> Is that like rot13 you mean
20:56:20 <ais523> yes
20:56:23 <ehird> it's a factor of length factorial, says oerjan
20:56:29 <ehird> short strings last 3 cycles
20:56:36 <ehird> ^scramble anvirtuous
20:56:36 <fungot> avruusotin
20:56:40 <ehird> ^scramble avruusotin
20:56:40 <fungot> aruointsuv
20:56:41 <olsner> doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value?
20:56:43 <ehird> ^scramble aruointsuv
20:56:43 <fungot> auituvsnor
20:56:46 <ehird> ^scramble auituvsnor
20:56:46 <fungot> aiusornvtu
20:56:48 <ehird> ^scramble aiusornvtu
20:56:49 <fungot> auontuvrsi
20:56:51 <ehird> ^scramble auontuvrsi
20:56:52 <fungot> aotvsirunu
20:56:54 <ehird> ^scramble aotvsirunu
20:56:55 <fungot> atsrnuuivo
20:56:57 <ehird> ^scramble atsrnuuivo
20:56:57 <fungot> asnuvoiurt
20:57:00 <ehird> ^scramble asnuvoiurt
20:57:00 <fungot> anvirtuous
20:57:09 <ehird> 8, there.
20:57:21 <fizzie> ehird: A plausible integer-sequence link was also pasted, I guess you saw that too?
20:57:26 <oerjan> ais523: it was a known sequence in the encyclopedia of integer sequences, but it still wasn't obvious why the definition there fit
20:57:30 <AnMaster> I suspect that scramble always cycles in the long end.
20:57:34 <olsner> ^unscramble usrmlebacn
20:57:34 <fungot> unscramble
20:57:37 <coppro> of course it cycles
20:57:41 <ehird> fizzie: yeah
20:57:45 <AnMaster> considering it's definition
20:57:53 <ehird> well, duh.
20:57:55 <coppro> proving it cycles is easy
20:57:57 <ehird> thanks einstein
20:58:02 <AnMaster> coppro, indeed
20:58:12 <ais523> it obviously cycles, for the same reason that BackFlip programs always terminate
20:58:18 <AnMaster> I just didn't bother making a formal proof, thus I used "suspect"
20:58:22 <oklopol> avruusotin <<< space taker
20:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, BackFlip is sub-tc then?
20:58:37 <oklopol> <olsner> doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value? <<< no
20:58:38 <fizzie> oklopol: More like "spce taker".
20:58:46 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, obviously
20:58:52 <ais523> it doesn't even have infinite storage
20:59:03 <ais523> the fact that it always terminates is probably more interesting than the fact it's sub-TC, though
20:59:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't remember details of BackFlip *looks at wiki page*
20:59:17 <ais523> even more interestingly, Unassignable can be proven to always terminate along similar lines, and it's pretty high-level
20:59:21 <olsner> hmm, no, the original value doesn't have to be in the cycle... of course :(
20:59:26 <oklopol> olsner: there's this thing called multiplication
20:59:30 <ais523> olsner: it does if it's reversible
20:59:50 <oklopol> olsner: that's not the issue. it's in the cycle for permutations.
20:59:50 <olsner> oklopol: ooh, I might add that I meant the domain was finite
20:59:56 <oklopol> olsner: then yes
21:00:07 <AnMaster> ais523, "The first line of the file must be the longest and all lines below it are padded to its length with spaces, if necessary."
21:00:10 <AnMaster> any reason why?
21:00:41 <ais523> to help interps allocate memory better
21:00:50 <oklopol> olsner: if the original weren't in the cycle, the inverse operation would be able to tell how many cycles you've gone around when you started undoing it after cycling a few rounds
21:00:53 <oklopol> you know what i mean?
21:01:21 <oklopol> a->b->c->b->c->b->c->..., if you started taking the inverse, it couldn't know when to give a
21:01:26 <ais523> oklopol: heh, that's sort of the opposite of the way I proved it, I was reasoning that in order to join the cycle there'd have to be some element in the cycle with two different inverses
21:01:53 <olsner> oh, the inverse and the forward function would have to have the same cycles I guess
21:01:54 <oklopol> ais523: hmm, i think that's exactly the same proof
21:02:37 <ehird> oklopol: the proof is its own inverse!
21:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. That would solve a lot in befunge. I could even do something like mmap() file, mmap() an equally large area and do a bulk copy then
21:03:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, not exactly
21:03:52 <ais523> that means that the interp pads all lines to the same length as the first, not the input file
21:04:12 <AnMaster> ais523, oh right, misread it
21:04:13 <oerjan> ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it
21:04:35 <AnMaster> ais523, could the first line end in some spaces?
21:04:53 <oklopol> oerjan: how long did you check btw?
21:04:55 <oklopol> well
21:04:56 <oklopol> how far
21:04:59 <oerjan> up to 20
21:05:11 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure, I normally use hyphens
21:05:13 <oerjan> should i paste the haskell?
21:05:54 <oklopol> oerjan: that's not very reliable, haskell can do infinite lists, so why cut it?
21:06:14 <oerjan> er, to print the output
21:06:45 <oklopol> ~
21:07:01 <oerjan> i didn't see the point in checking further (i was just comparing by eye though)
21:07:22 <oerjan> as in, i didn't implement the definition on the website
21:07:42 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure element 65427 would've been different
21:07:47 <oerjan> :D
21:07:51 <oklopol> i have this hunch.
21:07:53 <ais523> ^show scramble
21:07:54 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
21:07:55 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
21:07:58 <ais523> ^show unscramble
21:07:58 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
21:08:13 <ehird> ais523: this is all due to my ITRALCEN
21:08:17 <ais523> yes
21:08:22 <ais523> I guessed
21:09:10 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it <-- for what
21:09:31 <ais523> AnMaster: the number of iterations of ^scramble before it repeats
21:09:34 <AnMaster> ah
21:09:38 <oerjan> yep
21:09:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
21:09:55 <AnMaster> which is m and n?
21:10:13 <ehird> Sgeo: 65536,0,32800,0,8192,0,4096,0,1024,512,256,0,16384,16,0,16384
21:10:24 <ehird> (copy that then right click→paste on tonematrix)
21:10:32 <oerjan> n is something like word length, but i didn't check if there's any increment
21:10:46 <oerjan> i.e. word length + something
21:10:50 <Sgeo> Firefox spontaneously decided to go strange
21:11:29 <ehird> Sgeo: 4098,5132,49168,92704,82112,32768,8356,16384,8722,13330,2338,2280,14352,20484,38912,3072
21:11:53 <Sgeo> ehird, hooked?
21:11:59 <ehird> I tried it earlier.
21:12:08 <Sgeo> Ah
21:12:48 * Sgeo is attempting to make a random tonematrix generator
21:14:21 <ehird> they're just integers
21:14:49 <Sgeo> I want the user to be able to put in the number of rests and simultaneous tones
21:15:16 <Sgeo> Also, I'm doing this in Javascript
21:15:23 <ehird> Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print rand(131071), "," }; puts'
21:15:31 <ehird> hm
21:15:32 <ehird> make that
21:15:39 <ehird> Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print ",", rand(131071) }; puts'
21:15:41 <ehird> and omit the first ,
21:15:55 <ehird> sounds nice
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21:16:30 <Sgeo> ehird, the random ones, or my thoughts?
21:16:36 <ehird> random
21:16:43 <coppro> I feel sort of bad... I'm commenting an INTERCAL program
21:16:51 <Sgeo> <InitHello> annoying: 49154,128,49154,128,49154,49154,128,128,24578,128,24578,128,128,98306,128,128
21:17:00 <ehird> coppro: just make the comments meaningless
21:17:02 <ehird> like oerjan did
21:17:16 <coppro> huh?
21:17:18 <ehird> Sgeo: what, that's awesome
21:17:21 <ais523> coppro: don't worry, I do it all the time
21:17:24 <ehird> coppro: see his unlambda interp
21:17:32 <ais523> the Google style guide recomments comments, but insists they're in allcaps
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21:18:54 -!- FireFly has joined.
21:19:24 <AnMaster> someone should count number of citations vs number of [citation needed] on wikipedia. Both total and as average ratio per article
21:19:29 <AnMaster> sounds like a job for fizzie
21:19:31 <AnMaster> ;D
21:19:37 <Sgeo> Can I safely use Javascript 1.6 stuff?
21:19:45 <coppro> link?
21:19:53 <Asztal> Sgeo: no, I don't think so
21:19:55 <ais523> I thought JavaScript 3 was out nowadays
21:20:22 <ehird> ais523: have you ever used a browser?
21:20:48 <AnMaster> there is more than one version of javascript? I thought it was just version with lots of implementation specific extensions on top
21:20:53 <ais523> ehird: yes
21:21:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you are so, so wrong.
21:21:12 <Sgeo> Well, I'm on the Mozilla site, so 1.6 according to Mozilla anyway
21:21:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I said "thought" not "think"
21:21:28 * Sgeo would really like to be able to use indexOf for this
21:21:36 <AnMaster> so yes I were wrong
21:21:38 <Sgeo> Or at least a way to check to see if an element is in an array.
21:21:40 <ais523> AnMaster: as of 16 september 2008, the last time the stats were calculated, there were 607524 uses of {{reflist}}, and 124868 of {{fact}}
21:21:41 <ehird> Sgeo: nobody will use it.
21:21:42 <ehird> so feel free.
21:21:49 <AnMaster> ais523, source?
21:21:55 <ehird> ais523: reflist? there's other ways to do references.
21:21:58 <ais523> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedTemplates
21:21:58 <Sgeo> Unless there's a better way to populate an array with random unique numbers?
21:22:02 <ais523> ehird: yes, but they're harder to count
21:22:19 <Sgeo> Well, I also need to check the array being used, so
21:22:21 <ais523> 127644 of {{unreferenced}}, by the way
21:22:27 <AnMaster> ah
21:22:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what about per-article average?
21:22:48 <ais523> divide by the number of articles
21:23:40 <AnMaster> mhm
21:24:28 <AnMaster> ais523, so more citations than citation needed at that point of time?
21:24:35 <AnMaster> also when will that page next update
21:25:11 <ais523> AnMaster: when someone next runs that particular batch query, and I'm pretty sure it's a long way down the developer's list of priorities
21:25:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well why isn't it automatically updated?
21:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Why don't you buy them a fuckin' server?
21:25:52 <ehird> You know, so they can run tons of useless queries all the time.
21:25:58 <ais523> have you any idea how much processing it needs to scrape the whole of Wikipedia?
21:26:11 <ais523> nowadays they have a toolserver for that sort of thing, but it would take it weeks or months to recompile that list I expect
21:26:17 <ais523> and using a dedicated server for it would be a waste
21:26:23 <ehird> ais523: oh, I doubt it'd take that long
21:26:30 <AnMaster> ais523, you could add a field and update it on edit
21:26:32 <pikhq> ... Why scrape Wikipedia? They post database dumps on a regular basis.
21:26:34 <coppro> well once you have the initial metrics, you can update on edit
21:26:40 <coppro> and yeah, databse dumps
21:26:41 <ais523> pikhq: I meant, from the dumps
21:26:42 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah let's just have 100 fields for every edit
21:26:42 <ehird> so worth it
21:26:46 <pikhq> Ah. Well, then.
21:26:51 <ehird> ais523: if you run it on a multi-core system with a very fast disk I imagine you could do a few thousand articles a second
21:26:51 <ais523> also, updating templates on edit would be a real mess the way MediaWiki works
21:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, they already have "pages using this template"
21:26:58 <pikhq> Eh, I'd guess that Wikipedia would be freaking huge.
21:27:02 <AnMaster> with a reverse index
21:27:04 <ehird> AnMaster: that's different
21:27:06 <AnMaster> iirc
21:27:11 <ehird> they maintain that index anyway
21:27:15 <ehird> for page links
21:27:19 <ais523> and it's often wrong
21:27:26 <ais523> there are several known tricks to correct it
21:27:39 <AnMaster> true, so how many pages use {{fact}} and how many use {{reflist}}
21:27:51 <AnMaster> as in not instances, but pages with instances
21:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, put wikipedia on a ram disk :D
21:28:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it's called a solid state drive
21:28:32 <ehird> or, why not just fit WP in ram?
21:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, ramdisk != ssd
21:28:45 <AnMaster> learn the difference
21:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: i know.
21:28:54 <ehird> i meant, 'a fast disk' meant SSD.
21:29:00 <AnMaster> and I specifically meant a ramdisk
21:29:05 <AnMaster> since ssd is slow
21:29:07 <ehird> you can't get ram disks big enough for wp, I don't think.
21:29:08 <AnMaster> compared to ram
21:29:16 <ehird> ssd is quick enough to scrape wp
21:29:19 <ehird> you have other benchmarks
21:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the dump 12 GB?
21:29:28 <ehird> s/benchmarks/bottlenecks/
21:29:29 <pikhq> Yeah, it's 12G.
21:29:40 <ehird> AnMaster: So? My next machine will have 12GB of ram.
21:29:41 <pikhq> It'd be a wee bit pricy, but you could have all of Wikipedia in RAM.
21:30:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so just get a 32 GB RAM machine or such and use a part of it for a 12 GB RAM disk
21:30:01 <ehird> Put a minimal linux on there and you could fit most of WP.
21:30:17 <ehird> Or just read most of it in RAM, and have a one-time swapover cost.
21:30:22 <ehird> 32GB is expensive.
21:30:23 <AnMaster> indeed
21:30:40 <pikhq> But attainable.
21:31:00 <bsmntbombdood> i need to buy a new computer
21:31:08 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but the kind of person who wants to scrape WP can't afford 32gb of ram.
21:31:09 <ehird> :P
21:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, or even more expensive: go for a massively parallel HPC computer/cluster
21:31:20 <AnMaster> some NUMA thing obviously
21:31:49 <ehird> 12GB of DDR3 RAM + 4-core machine + SSD disk to load it into RAM quickly = quite cheap mega-fast wikipedia processor.
21:32:03 <ehird> Quite cheap as these things go, that is.
21:32:09 <pikhq> ehird: I think I could just about afford that much RAM and a motherboard to use it. I'd be broke after doing so, but still...
21:32:20 <ais523> pikhq: don't
21:32:39 <bsmntbombdood> 12G compressed isn't it?
21:32:40 <ehird> Yeah, I'll be pretty dry on cash after this. (But I never buy much.)
21:32:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, wikipedia will soon outgrow it
21:32:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Nah.
21:32:46 <ehird> 9G compressed.
21:32:49 <AnMaster> also
21:32:49 <ehird> iirc.
21:32:53 <AnMaster> what about images?
21:32:53 <pikhq> ais523: Well, yeah. I'd really rather not.
21:33:06 <AnMaster> I thought it was 12 GB of text
21:33:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't even think about images.
21:33:15 <AnMaster> does that include the talk pages?
21:33:22 <AnMaster> or is that dump even larger
21:33:24 <ehird> I'm not exactly getting 12GB of RAM to scrape WP.
21:33:25 <bsmntbombdood> counting {{fact}} is gonna be i/o bound
21:33:26 <pikhq> ais523: Especially since the same funds could instead be spent to get me a nice Opteron motherboard with a couple of 4-core chips or some such. ;)
21:33:32 <bsmntbombdood> possibly even if everything's in ram
21:33:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: So load it into RAM.
21:33:41 <ehird> Ah.
21:33:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Well, w/ DDR3...
21:33:59 <ais523> I don't think there's ever been a successful official public backup of the image servers
21:34:09 <ehird> You'd still be IO-bound, but the bound wouldn't be much of a bound.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how much space do the images on wp use?
21:34:37 <bsmntbombdood> hundreds of Gs
21:34:39 <ais523> too much
21:34:39 <AnMaster> also I'm pretty sure wp deletes old images.
21:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: terabytes.
21:34:45 <ais523> AnMaster: nope
21:34:46 <ehird> and they don't.
21:34:51 <ais523> how would image undelete work, then?
21:35:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well I have seen lots of images with the oldest revisions missing
21:35:14 <ehird> that's cuz they're before they were recorded, I guess.
21:35:15 <ais523> AnMaster: image undelete is relatively recent
21:35:20 <AnMaster> ah
21:35:22 <ais523> as in, only a few years old
21:35:28 <ais523> maybe 3
21:35:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so what happened with those old revisions of it?
21:36:18 <ais523> well, there was a server crash which lost the entire deleted-stuff archives several years ago
21:36:38 <bsmntbombdood> "Currently Wikipedia does not allow or provide facilities to download all Images."
21:36:40 <ais523> also, deleting images used to just delete the image, although the metadata stayed in the article deleted-revision archives
21:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, check the thumbnails in the history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg
21:36:48 <AnMaster> and then try those links
21:36:50 <ais523> why?
21:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me what happened there
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I get 403 Forbidden for old ones
21:37:12 <fizzie> Internet archive seems to be about 3 petabytes nowadays, and growing "about 100 terabytes per month"; it's nice that the petabyte gets some use too.
21:37:48 <AnMaster> what about google's "cached pages" archive?
21:38:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not entirely sure what's going on there
21:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well tell some wp devs or something about this issue?
21:38:34 <AnMaster> :/
21:38:43 <AnMaster> well,*
21:39:06 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm sure it isn't their top priorit
21:39:08 <ais523> *priority
21:39:13 <AnMaster> sure
21:39:21 <ais523> if you want to, email wikitech-l
21:39:24 <AnMaster> ais523, but I have seen this on lots of images
21:39:30 <AnMaster> ais523, at what domain?
21:39:33 <ais523> which is a reasonable place to ask stupid questions
21:39:35 <fizzie> Haven't seen google speaking about their size. But there's one estimate (in wp) that global Internet traffic in one month is "5 to 8 exabytes".
21:39:35 <AnMaster> wikitech-l@example.com
21:39:38 <AnMaster> or what?
21:39:45 <ais523> you need to subscribe first
21:39:51 <ais523> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:ML
21:39:58 <ais523> I think there's a link to wikitech-l on there
21:40:16 <ehird> http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=745 ← this is the most expensive ram evar
21:40:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> you need to subscribe first <-- meh
21:40:45 <AnMaster> :(
21:41:03 <ais523> you could also try asking on-wiki at [[WP:VPT]]
21:41:12 <ais523> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:VPT
21:41:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the domain name says it all :D
21:41:30 <ehird> AnMaster: wu
21:41:30 <ehird> t
21:41:43 <ais523> the devs don't look there very often, but you get lots of other technically minded people there asking questions
21:41:50 <ais523> so they can often end up answering each other's questions
21:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh misread
21:42:34 <AnMaster> I read "munchkin"
21:44:28 <ehird> Prediction: RAM will get so fast and large in coming years that they'll need fans.
21:44:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I have already seen RAM with fans
21:44:52 <ehird> Wat.
21:44:53 <AnMaster> not common, but still
21:44:53 <Asztal> me too
21:44:54 <ehird> Srsly?
21:44:55 <Deewiant> ehird: I have Mushkin's DDR2 Redline (not sure if I told you that already so here you go)
21:44:57 <AnMaster> yes
21:45:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Good, are they?
21:45:33 <Deewiant> Beats me, I have nothing to compare to
21:45:43 <ehird> :-D
21:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how can you have missed ram with fans...
21:45:56 <Deewiant> They're better than the Kingston SDR I had before
21:46:03 <ehird> AnMaster: My little bubble of sanity.
21:46:11 <Deewiant> Or hmm, it might have been DDR1
21:46:12 <Deewiant> But anyhoo
21:46:18 <fizzie> Soon there'll be fans on fans.
21:46:33 <oklopol> :o
21:46:34 <Asztal> I've seen that too.
21:46:39 <ehird> :D
21:46:41 <Asztal> ¬_¬
21:46:41 <AnMaster> Asztal, where
21:46:53 <AnMaster> :P
21:47:18 <oklopol> Asztal builds spaceships for a living
21:47:40 <AnMaster> haha
21:48:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I have also seen chipsets with their own fans
21:48:39 <AnMaster> not sure if it was south or north birdige
21:48:40 <ehird> We should just make a fan-powered computer.
21:48:41 <AnMaster> bridge*
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21:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, how would that work...
21:49:07 <impomatic> Hi :-)
21:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean air streams instead of electricity...
21:49:14 <impomatic> Any news about BF Joust?
21:49:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Right!
21:49:20 <AnMaster> for the logic
21:49:32 <ehird> Your computer is just a tangled mass of many hundreds of tiny fans.
21:49:39 <ehird> With little bobbles as the memory.
21:49:51 <AnMaster> bobbles...
21:49:53 <AnMaster> what is that
21:49:59 <ehird> Bobbles of plastic.
21:50:00 <ehird> Little balls.
21:50:02 <AnMaster> ah
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21:50:50 <ehird> http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3461 ← stuff about nehalem's puny l2 cache
21:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you register stuff though, I mean you would need electricity to power the fans yes, but risk is you end up with electricity for more stuff unless you are careful
21:50:51 <Deewiant> http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm is amusing and news to me
21:50:52 <impomatic> Also, does anyone have access to this paper "Van der Poel, W.L., 1956, 1962: The Logical Principles of Some Simple Computers."
21:51:19 <ehird> AnMaster: just have an external power supply thing, so that it's agnostic to how you power the fans
21:51:29 <fizzie> There's that MONIAC thing, though it's not exactly very programmable.
21:51:40 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
21:51:53 <AnMaster> ehird, can you would out a logic in this?
21:51:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, MONIAC?
21:51:59 <AnMaster> err
21:52:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
21:52:14 <fizzie> Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p
21:52:44 <impomatic> And I've found a OISC which I can't find described anywhere.
21:52:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p <-- wut
21:53:05 <AnMaster> impomatic, oh... details
21:53:39 <AnMaster> ah
21:53:41 <AnMaster> found it
21:53:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, so this is like that think in "Making money" by TP?
21:54:08 <fizzie> Yes, that book is mentioned in the wp page.
21:54:39 <AnMaster> and for once I thought he actually made something up, "nothing can be this crazy in the real world"
21:55:10 <ehird> moniac cheats
21:55:12 <ehird> it's too precise!
21:55:19 <ehird> we just want shaped metal grids and fans.
21:55:20 <impomatic> Found as in it already existed in the Redcode instruction set, but no-one realised it's Turing complete by itself!
21:55:53 <AnMaster> impomatic, details
21:59:08 <bsmntbombdood> i'd like to run page rank on wikipeida
21:59:23 <impomatic> Corewar's DJN instruction. DJN A,B will subtract 1 from memory location B and jump to A if the result at location B is non-zero
21:59:27 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, what do you mean.
21:59:37 <ehird> impomatic: that's just subleq, minorly tweaked
21:59:40 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean what do i mean?
21:59:50 * AnMaster was just about to say what ehird said
22:00:10 <ais523> no, that isn't subleq
22:00:15 <oklopol> minorly?
22:00:23 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, manually rank each page or what
22:00:25 <oklopol> kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato
22:00:29 <ais523> subleq does subtractions
22:00:31 <Deewiant> :-D
22:00:34 <ais523> whereas DJN does decrements
22:00:42 <ais523> subleq's 3-arg IIRC, DJN is 2-arg
22:00:44 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: YES I AM GOING TO MANUALLY RANK EACH PAGE IN WIKIPEDIA
22:00:46 <ehird> minor = instead of subtracting N, decrement
22:00:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: <3
22:00:53 <bsmntbombdood> page rank as in google
22:00:58 * AnMaster agrees with ehird here
22:01:03 <AnMaster> about minor
22:01:08 <ais523> I wouldn't call that minor
22:01:16 <AnMaster> <oklopol> kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato <-- C minor or C major
22:01:22 <ais523> that's like calling a replacement of BF's + with genuine addition minor
22:01:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:02:07 <oklopol> except it's in the other direction, which imo makes it less minor.
22:02:12 <Deewiant> I'd call that minor as well :-P
22:02:13 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't subleq using a immediate rather than a memory address for number to substraction
22:02:24 <AnMaster> if so, it is very minor indeed
22:02:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No
22:02:30 <ais523> AnMaster: subtract != decrement
22:02:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok
22:02:36 <ais523> that's a big difference in any OISC
22:02:44 <oklopol> ais523: genuine addition can trivially do increment, increment can't trivially do addition
22:02:50 <ais523> oklopol: agreed
22:03:10 <ehird>
22:03:25 <bsmntbombdood> i'm confused
22:03:56 <oklopol> been there
22:04:30 <ais523> ehird: do you still play Nibbles
22:04:32 <ais523> ?
22:06:45 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
22:09:06 <AnMaster> hm ↑ is easy on this keyboard layout, never knew that before
22:09:15 <AnMaster> ←↓→↑
22:10:22 <bsmntbombdood> pagelinks.sql.gz is only 2 gb
22:10:39 <ais523> so that's 2 gigabytes, /compressed/?
22:10:43 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
22:12:37 <bsmntbombdood> i don't know how to parse this format though
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22:16:15 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall some subleq variant that used an accumulator instead of the first argument, so only had two
22:16:49 <impomatic> What's Nibbles?
22:17:07 <ais523> impomatic: a killer app for Linux, IMO
22:17:13 <impomatic> It's not a trivial variant when it comes to runtimes ;-)
22:17:13 <ais523> it's basically multiplayer Snake
22:17:28 <ais523> where you can go around killing each other, in addition to just getting the things you're meant to get
22:17:35 <impomatic> 56000 cycles for a MOV
22:17:40 <oerjan> ^bf <,.!?
22:17:41 <fungot> ?
22:17:58 <ais523> ^bf ,<.!a
22:17:58 <oerjan> heh
22:18:15 <ais523> I wonder if fungot uses a two-way tape?
22:18:15 <fungot> ais523: gui programming sucks, no one cares ( except for ports), and run
22:18:20 <oklopol> 56000? :D
22:18:22 <ais523> ^ng ,<>.!a
22:18:25 <ais523> ^bf ,<>.!a
22:18:25 <fungot> a
22:18:43 <oerjan> seems so
22:19:01 <oerjan> ^bf ,<,>.<.!ab
22:19:02 <fungot> ab
22:19:15 <oklopol> impomatic: what's the algo?
22:19:29 <oerjan> looks pretty definite
22:19:32 <oerjan> *ive
22:20:53 <oerjan> ^bf ,[>,][<]>[.>]!test
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22:21:08 <oerjan> oh
22:21:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!test
22:21:13 <fungot> test
22:22:16 <oerjan> ^show scramble
22:22:17 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
22:23:34 <impomatic> MOV A, B = DJN 0, B / DJN 1, TEMP / DJN -1, A / DJN 1, A / DJN 1, B / DJN -2, TEMP
22:23:55 <oerjan> no use testing with fungot then, but i think my first > is unnecessary
22:23:57 <fungot> oerjan: doesn't intercal have a minuscule instruction set? hm. i got it, thanks a lot
22:24:06 <oerjan> fungot: NO!
22:24:08 <fungot> oerjan: we are different. it's not actually part of the list ( ( 1), the repl is awkward, but mostly, they all die and ppl start using a combination module, instead loading something else ( no true scientist has only one side of the world
22:24:13 <ais523> ^styl
22:24:14 <ais523> ^style
22:24:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:24:43 <oerjan> i'd have thought intercal was a dead giveaway :D
22:24:53 <ais523> ^style ic
22:24:53 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
22:24:57 <oerjan> oh right
22:25:02 <ais523> fungot: say something
22:25:03 <fungot> ais523: w016 don't type that so hastily abstained, it doesn't end with `try again'. first, marks where the compiler's looking; that may be wondering what happens if you submit a patch to a variable name and isn't an array must be made about unwoven threads is by changing `senestmax' in version 1.-94.-8 and c-intercal from 0.26 onwards, but must be onespot or twospot value as long as both resulting threads after the statement sh
22:25:21 <ais523> fungot: that was interesting...
22:25:21 <fungot> ais523: the way the scoping rules and recursion work), `libick.a', with the same way as `ick_linelabel' and `copying.txt' in the range of options that are sending. however, it will give this error can also be used freely and as a result was too surprised to finish off this appendix, here's the corresponding bit, which holds values of the group of idioms at the start menu then typing `cmd' ( *note e579::) to create a directory c
22:26:26 -!- fizzieds has joined.
22:27:02 <Deewiant> "What happens if you submit a patch to a variable name" indeed!
22:28:10 <oerjan> fungot: what is the recommended gui toolkit for intercal?
22:28:11 <fungot> oerjan: the only way to communicate between unwoven threads is by changing the abstention or reinstatement status of the twospot variable, these guarantees are somewhat complicated, and one of these contexts. the third and fourth, quantum intercal, this check generally makes more sense than explicitly specifying.' rather than letting the compilation process guess everything. in a program decides that it split off from since the
22:28:30 <Deewiant> "Quantum intercal"
22:28:34 <Deewiant> Sounds scary
22:28:50 <fizzieds> ^style
22:28:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:28:51 <ais523> it's the CLC-INTERCAL name for a particular multithreading extension, it isn't true quantum
22:29:08 <Asztal> shouldn't that .' there be a !?
22:29:08 <ais523> I believe zzo38 does have a true-quantum INTERCAl instruction set, but hasn't implemetned it yet
22:29:10 <fizzieds> right. that did not look irc.loggy.
22:29:51 <ais523> Asztal: no, ! is an abbreviation for '.
22:31:43 <kerlo> !style darwin
22:31:54 <kerlo> ^style darwin
22:31:54 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:32:03 <fizzieds> ^, not !
22:32:08 <kerlo> fungot: where did our species come from?
22:32:10 <fungot> kerlo: difference between field- and house-slaves. cattle, horses, and hybrids. -influence :) male, to surrounding objects, and over a fnord second :) time has created in/ galapagos islands nearly every land-bird, but only a theory on/ origin :) species
22:32:38 <kerlo> Darwin overused emoticons, in my opinion.
22:32:49 <oerjan> our evolution was far more scary than i thought...
22:33:02 <fizzieds> "origin :) species"
22:33:08 <kerlo> I didn't know he was a fnord person.
22:33:40 * oerjan assumes kerlo knows how fungot works, and is just joking
22:33:42 <fungot> oerjan: bud-variations in. -recognition :) varieties :). -hildebrand's experiments on. -flowers :). -p. fnord, ejected.
22:33:45 <fizzieds> should fix that particular model.
22:33:56 <ais523> oh no... <Microsoft marketing> Windows Internet Explorer 8. The next Internet has arrived.
22:38:36 <kerlo> Did they actually say that?
22:38:52 <kerlo> Link or it didn't happen. :-P
22:42:12 <ais523> I saw it quoted somewhere
22:42:20 <ais523> I'm trying to find the original on Microsoft's website atm
22:43:46 <ais523> http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx# advertises that it's available for "all systems and languages", which can't be right
22:43:59 <Sgeo> Why does the result keep clearing?
22:44:00 <Sgeo> http://rafb.net/p/YqSa3M23.html
22:44:33 <Sgeo> Oh, hm
22:44:57 <Deewiant> ais523: Sure it is, it just defines a "system" as something that can run IE
22:46:46 <fizzieds> wfw311 runs ie, but i don't think ie8 is available for it either.
22:47:06 <fizzieds> version 4 or something was.
22:47:28 <Deewiant> Yes, I forgot to add an 8 at the end of my sentence and couldn't be bothered to correct
22:47:38 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
22:47:45 * Sgeo changes the type
22:48:20 <pikhq> Windows for Workgroups 3.11 with Win32s can run IE 5 or maybe even 6, I think...
22:48:39 <pikhq> Hell, a SunOS machine can run IE 5. ;)
22:48:44 <ais523> meh, can't find it, maybe someone was lying to me
22:49:14 <fizzieds> well, 4 or something was what i used
22:49:57 -!- fizzieds has quit ("back to a real computer").
22:51:38 <ais523> I managed to crash IE4 using a recursive website
22:51:49 <ais523> it was a website with frames, and each frame was the website itself
22:51:56 <coppro> yay... reimplementing basic operations in INTERCAL is FUN!
22:51:57 <oerjan> LYING TO AIS523? WHAT BASTARDS!
22:52:04 <ais523> it was pretty spectacular; it didn't just take down IE4, but the whole desktop environment too
22:52:06 <coppro> I think I have addition down...
22:52:20 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion
22:52:21 <ais523> coppro: are you trying to do it without using the standard library?
22:52:23 <Slereah_> :3
22:52:27 <coppro> ais523: of course!
22:52:39 <ais523> and are you trying it in pure INTERCAL-72, or with extensions?
22:52:44 <coppro> CLC-INTERCAL
22:52:46 <ais523> I managed to get addition down to one line using extensions
22:52:48 <ais523> it was multithreaded
22:52:50 <coppro> ah
22:54:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:55:00 <ais523> one thread did the addition loop, the other monitored to see when the loop had finished
23:00:34 * kerlo adds recursion to his list of things that threads can be used for
23:01:10 <coppro> (1111) DO NOT WHATEVER YOU DO COME FROM .60110... hehehe
23:01:43 <ais523> coppro: deliberate obfuscation?
23:01:49 <coppro> yep
23:01:52 <ais523> also, .60110 is a pretty large variable name...
23:02:01 <coppro> yeah, I'm putting all my computed COME FROMS up high
23:02:06 <coppro> so they don't get interfered with
23:02:39 <coppro> actually...
23:02:43 <coppro> safer way of coding
23:03:31 <coppro> unfortunately I can't obfuscate right there now :(
23:03:42 <oerjan> coppro: you might want to make the second DO part of a larger word, iirc
23:03:52 <ais523> that works too
23:03:55 <coppro> yeah, that will work to
23:03:58 <coppro> but DOCOME isn't a word
23:04:05 <oerjan> i mean before
23:04:27 <oerjan> DO TAKE CARE OF YOUR HAIRDO
23:04:32 <oerjan> *NOT
23:04:46 <coppro> ah
23:05:09 <oerjan> DO NOT MAKE THAT WEIRDO
23:05:16 <ehird> coppro: why not use c-intercal? home bred by ais523! :P
23:05:18 <ehird> admittedly, less insane.
23:05:27 <ais523> ehird: compatibility between the two improves all the time
23:05:42 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL is generally ahead of the curve, because it doesn't worry about things like portability and efficiency
23:06:04 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR: OHHHHHH NO I SEE NOW
23:06:04 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR shoots self.
23:06:05 <coppro> does ABSTAINING FROM a label prevent COMING FROM it?
23:06:06 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR: I finally understand.
23:06:08 <ehird> ↑ on forth
23:06:08 <ais523> coppro: no
23:06:12 <coppro> good
23:06:13 <ais523> you can COME FROM a comment, even
23:06:19 <coppro> (1111) DO NOT, WHATEVER YOU DO, COMMENT OUT THIS LINE
23:06:31 <ais523> coppro: DO, is a syntax error
23:06:44 <coppro> it doesn't get executed
23:06:51 <ais523> ah, ok
23:06:54 <ais523> just wanted to make sure you knew
23:07:02 <coppro> since (1111) is the subject of a permanent COME FROM
23:07:33 <ais523> OK, this is ridiculous: apparently, the Dalai Lama was thinking of changing operating system, and he asked Slashdot for advice: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/18/2030230&from=rss
23:07:44 <ais523> "apparently" here means "I'm not at all sure if this is true"
23:08:02 <oerjan> *facepalm*
23:08:08 <ehird> ais523: amazing.
23:08:18 <Deewiant> Where "he" is very indirectly
23:08:21 <ais523> yes
23:08:48 <ais523> anyway, be back soon, rebooting after distro upgrade
23:08:54 <Sgeo> 140,776,32804,1036,544,16390,3072,32780,82176,2564,66056,24832,33028,6272,4136,2088
23:08:55 <Sgeo> erm
23:08:56 <ehird> the dalai lama is pretty awesome.
23:08:59 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/rnd_tonematrix.htm
23:08:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting after distro upgrade").
23:10:54 <ehird> it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms
23:10:58 <ehird> dear god.
23:11:09 <ehird> how retarded
23:11:20 <coppro> what the...
23:11:26 <ehird> from that /. article
23:11:27 <coppro> how is that a syntax error?
23:11:36 <ehird> coppro: because the DO starts a new statement
23:11:38 <ehird> whitespace is irrelevant
23:11:43 <coppro> no, a different thing
23:11:50 <ehird> oh
23:11:53 <coppro> PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":¥1110 ¢ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110
23:12:46 <kerlo> ehird: are there not many anti-exploitation mechanisms, or are the ones present ineffective?
23:13:05 <ehird> kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous.
23:14:04 <kerlo> Are you going to answer the question, or just Joseph Smith me?
23:14:27 <ehird> kerlo: why is the sky blue?
23:14:42 <ehird> kerlo: I want all the details, to the subatomic level.
23:15:28 <ehird> "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. "
23:15:28 <coppro> any answers to why my statement is a syntax error?
23:15:30 <ehird> ahahhahahahah
23:15:33 <ehird> *groan*
23:15:36 <ehird> coppro: ask ais when he returns
23:15:42 <kerlo> I asked you a this-or-that question, not an all-the-details question.
23:15:46 <coppro> :(
23:16:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:16:20 <ehird> kerlo: you should talk in horn clauses all the time
23:16:21 <ehird> wb ais523
23:16:24 <ehird> ais523: "it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms Microsoft has embedded in the last years"
23:16:27 <ehird> — that /. article
23:16:33 <ehird> also,
23:16:34 <ehird> 23:15 ehird: "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. "
23:16:37 <ehird> also
23:16:40 <ehird> 23:11 coppro: PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":¥1110 ¢ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110
23:16:44 <ehird> he wants to know why it's a syntax error
23:16:59 <ais523> there's nothing obviously wrong
23:17:02 <ais523> is it encoded corectly?
23:17:19 <ais523> passing UTF-8 to CLC-INTERCAL confuses it, you have to encode the input as Latin-1
23:17:20 <kerlo> An analogous question is perhaps "Your truck is stopped directly below an overpass. Is it stuck, or did you run out of gas while delivering it?"
23:17:25 <ais523> or as EBCDIC, or Baudot, or Hollerith
23:17:32 <coppro> OH, crap. stupid editor
23:17:37 <coppro> reset the encoding... blargh
23:17:58 <ais523> just edit in EBCDIC, that's sufficiently different from everything sane that it'll be obvious when it goes wrong
23:20:46 <ehird> "The new malloc_info function therefore does not export a structure. Instead it exports the information in a self-describing data structure. Nowadays the preferred way to do this is via XML."
23:20:47 <oerjan> <ehird> kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous. <<< I don't see what's stupid about asking whether windows really is more vulnerable than MacOS/Linux, if they were targeted the same amount
23:20:48 <ehird> — Ulrich Drepper
23:21:03 <ehird> oerjan: it's just patently false
23:21:09 <ehird> the quote from the article is untrue through and through
23:21:11 <oerjan> especially since dalai lama's offices may have been _specifically_ targeted by the chinese
23:21:59 <Sgeo> Perfect security: Don't go online
23:22:08 <ehird> you're so witty Sgeo.
23:26:03 <ehird> http://www.saveie6.com/
23:26:13 <ais523> why would anyone want to do that?
23:26:24 <oerjan> well, museums
23:26:26 <ehird> ais523: because it's the first of april?
23:26:52 <ais523> ah, ok
23:28:25 <Ilari> Wonder what anti-exploitation features they are talking about. Presumably not NX and ASLR, as those (especially the NX) have been supported for a while...
23:28:53 <ehird> Ilari: microsoft told them!
23:29:08 <ehird> wow
23:29:11 <coppro> hmm
23:29:13 <ehird> the amiga 500 had a 7mhz cpu
23:29:21 <ehird> gahahaha
23:29:32 <coppro> now my assignment to a two spot is causing problems :(
23:29:57 <Sgeo> I don't get http://www.saveie6.com/_img/img_chart_renderspeed.jpg
23:30:21 <ehird> Sgeo: how fast it animates GIFs
23:30:29 <ehird> yes, browsers actually differ on that
23:32:29 <coppro> oh
23:32:33 * coppro sees his mistake
23:32:37 <kerlo> oerjan: maybe you can answer my question, then.
23:32:46 <ais523> Ilari: not all Linux systems have NX and ASLR on by default
23:33:19 <pikhq> ais523: Linux turns NX on if it's supported by the CPU.
23:33:27 <ais523> ah, ok
23:33:36 <oerjan> kerlo: erm, no, i'm wondering myself
23:33:38 <ehird> NX is a ... what that you can't execute?
23:33:38 <ehird> Stack?
23:33:59 <Ilari> NX on Linux disables code execution on all pages that don't have PROT_EXEC.
23:33:59 <pikhq> NX is a flag on the page stating that it can't be executed from.
23:34:30 <pikhq> Only in existence on recent x86 processors.
23:34:40 <pikhq> (namely, everything that does x86_64.)
23:35:04 <ehird> Right.
23:35:10 <ehird> Phooey to that :P
23:35:14 <Ilari> I have heard that there are some X86-64 CPUs that can't do NX. All X86-64s from AMD support it, but some from Intel don't.
23:35:38 <pikhq> Ilari: Their very first ones don't. Said processors were sold for all of a month.
23:36:00 <pikhq> They also, IIRC, had a very poor implementation of x86_64.
23:36:36 * ais523 reports another bug to Ubuntu in the hope that they'll do something about it
23:36:52 <Ilari> X86-64 doesn't support execute without read, right (some other CPU archs do support that)?
23:36:53 <coppro> what bug?
23:36:57 <ehird> ais523: just report it to debian
23:37:00 <ehird> they actually fix stuff
23:37:02 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/363532
23:37:19 <ais523> ehird: I know, but I don't know what package it's in or if it's Ubuntu-specific, it well might be for this one
23:37:28 <ais523> I always report straight to Debian if I know the bug's there too
23:37:35 <ehird> well, even ubuntu-specific bugs tend to be reproducible on debian, no?
23:37:47 <ais523> only if you have a Debian system with Ubuntu repos to test them on
23:37:53 <ehird> Ubuntu and Debian should probably merge or something.
23:38:03 <coppro> And Debian devs won't take responsibility for non-Debian bugs
23:38:28 <ais523> well, yes, entirely correctly
23:38:35 <ais523> more to the point the bug might be in an Ubuntu-specific patch
23:38:50 <ehird> I'd expect a shutdown to cause no system beeps (and possibly a customizable shutdown sound).
23:38:52 <coppro> The graphical environment and startup/shutdown procedures, etc. are mostly Ubuntu
23:38:57 <ehird> detailed bug reports are amusing
23:39:13 <ais523> I've learnt through experience that you should always explain expected behaviour
23:39:19 <ehird> coppro: I don't think there are many actually Ubuntu-specific programs
23:39:25 <ais523> just in case the developers fixing it get completely the wrong end of the stick
23:39:29 <ehird> as in, made just for inclusion in it
23:39:30 <coppro> not Ubuntu-specific, no
23:40:24 * Sgeo goes to play isketch
23:40:40 <coppro> yay addition is working
23:41:07 <ehird> This indicates that the image is probably composed of several images taken at different times (probably in a top secret studio guarded by specially trained aliens working as government agents)
23:41:09 <ehird> — http://www.stuffucanuse.com/fake_moon_landings/moon_landings.htm
23:41:14 <ais523> coppro: what algorithm did you use?
23:41:25 <pikhq> coppro: Those were changed a bit and sent upstream. That stuff is in Debian stable these days. ;)
23:41:30 <ehird> Hilarious
23:41:32 <coppro> ais523: XOR and AND, looping till the AND gives 0
23:41:44 <ais523> yep, that's the usual way I think
23:41:57 <coppro> my loop condition involves .VVVVVVVVvVVVVVV1110
23:47:31 <ais523> those should all be capital, presumably?
23:47:43 <ais523> I've done the multiple-unary trick before, although it isn't portable
23:48:03 <coppro> yeah
23:48:03 <ais523> I think the standard method, of self-selection, though, is probably both more efficient and almost as clear
23:48:05 <coppro> it isn't portable?
23:48:08 <ehird> ais523: you asked about nibbles?
23:48:10 <ais523> ehird: yes
23:48:14 <ehird> well, it's not available for my os :P
23:48:17 <ais523> ah, pity
23:48:22 <ehird> I have ubuntu in a vm.
23:48:26 <ehird> I'll start it up.
23:48:27 <ehird> Why?
23:48:31 <ais523> I wanted to play you
23:48:35 <ehird> Sure.
23:48:42 <ehird> wait, doesn't your internet connection thing ban that?
23:48:43 <ais523> also, the AI I submitted to Gnome for Nibbles is now the official one
23:48:47 <ais523> ehird: different connection
23:48:48 <coppro> ais523: What do you mean it isn't portable?
23:48:49 <ehird> As a warning, I'm terrible.
23:48:50 <ais523> that's why I wanted to do it now
23:48:58 <ais523> coppro: J-INTERCAL doesn't like it
23:49:03 <coppro> oh
23:49:05 <ais523> and in C-INTERCAL, you have to phrase it differently
23:49:10 <ais523> as "VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV.V1110"
23:49:15 <coppro> hrm
23:49:18 <ais523> that works in CLC-INTERCAL too, btw
23:49:23 <coppro> yeah, but it's deprecated
23:49:26 <ais523> note that the quotes are required
23:50:13 <ais523> ehird: do you have a NAT at your end/
23:50:19 <ais523> I do over here, so you'd better host the game
23:50:21 <ais523> if you don't
23:50:24 <ehird> ais523: My ports are all blocked up, but I can open them manually.
23:50:36 <ais523> 5688 is the port for gnome-games, I think
23:50:38 <coppro> What is nibbles?
23:50:44 <ais523> coppro: killer app for Linux
23:50:47 <ais523> it's multiplayer Snake
23:50:54 <coppro> awesome, I'm in
23:50:57 <ehird> ais523: what ports?
23:51:02 <ais523> 5688
23:51:06 <ehird> ais523: udp or tcp
23:51:16 <ais523> I don't know offhand, shall I look it up?
23:51:22 <coppro> both?
23:51:24 <ehird> I guess TCP
23:51:31 <coppro> seems likely
23:51:34 <ais523> that's unlikely, my guess for a game like that is pure TCP
23:51:54 <ehird> sec, forwarding
23:52:22 <ais523> what IP should I connect to? 208.78.103.223?
23:52:27 <ehird> Second.
23:52:30 <ehird> I'm going to start the host.
23:52:32 <ehird> As soon as I figure out how.
23:52:33 <ais523> yep, I'm waiting
23:52:40 * ehird reads manual.
23:53:02 <ehird> ais523: Uh, I can't find anything about running a server.
23:53:08 <ais523> neither can I
23:53:19 <ais523> ah, it's in a different package
23:53:20 <ais523> ggzd
23:53:22 <ehird> Ah.
23:53:23 <ehird> OK.
23:53:27 <ais523> we can connect via the official server instead if you prefer
23:53:30 <ehird> Naw.
23:53:43 <ehird> This way's funner.
23:53:56 <ehird> I'll have it up in a min.
23:54:39 <ehird> ais523: try connecting
23:54:46 <ehird> wow, that was painless
23:54:50 <ehird> <3 ubuntu
23:55:08 <ais523> I get "Connection refused"
23:55:13 <ehird> Guess it is UDP.
23:55:16 <coppro> yeah
23:55:18 <coppro> same
23:55:24 <ehird> Wait.
23:55:27 <ehird> I'm connected via my bouncer, fools!
23:55:33 <ais523> ah, what IP, then?
23:55:35 <ehird> Try 91.105.116.151.
23:55:49 <ais523> still connection refused
23:55:58 <ehird> I'll try udp.
23:56:04 <coppro> I should be on guest connection?
23:56:10 <ehird> Yes.
23:56:12 <coppro> kk
23:56:35 <ehird> Forwarding...
23:56:50 <ais523> still connection refused
23:56:52 <ehird> Sec.
23:56:54 <ehird> I'm not done yet.
23:56:55 <ais523> but it waited about a second beforehand
23:57:17 <ehird> Try now.
23:57:26 <ais523> nope, still connection refused
23:57:30 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
23:57:32 <ehird> Okay, second.
23:57:34 <ehird> I can figs this out.
23:57:51 <ais523> $ nc 91.105.116.151 5688
23:57:53 <ais523> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused
23:58:01 <ehird> Oh.
23:58:03 <ais523> decided to try that way too, just in case it was a problem with Nibbles
23:58:03 <ehird> How queer.
23:58:06 <ehird> I must have to tweak the config.
23:58:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:58:11 <coppro> try ggz-games-server
23:58:13 <coppro> package
23:58:20 <ehird> coppro: I did.
23:58:22 <ehird> Second.
23:58:24 <ehird> Here's the config files.
23:58:25 <coppro> ah
23:59:15 <ehird> Try now, coppro & ais523.
23:59:25 <ais523> nope
23:59:27 <coppro> no
23:59:28 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:59:28 <ais523> still connection refused
23:59:32 <ehird> Hmm
23:59:35 <ais523> on nc and from Niibles
23:59:38 <ehird> Okay, wait, lemme think.
23:59:43 <ehird> Clearly, it's denying you guys access, right?
23:59:51 <ais523> yep
23:59:57 <ais523> OTOH, I can netcat to, say, port 22
23:59:57 <ehird> So, it's a problem with ggzd.
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