00:00:05 -It now redirects to a subdirectory of "robinhanson.typepad.com". 00:00:11 -I assume he's moved over to Less Wrong 00:00:12 -. 00:05:39 -"00:04 MyCatVerbs: Berengal: long, pointy things. English people used to put them into French people from long distances. Won a few wars that way." 00:06:23 -THERE IS NO GOOD GUI FRAMEWORK FOR RUBY 00:06:25 -aaaaaaaaaaaaaa 00:07:27 -shoes 00:07:56 -shoes is good for apple fanboys and kids learning how to hello world 00:08:12 -i'm pretty sure why isn't an apple fanboy. 00:08:27 -i'm pretty sure I've used shoes for other things, too. 00:08:55 -"Shoes is a tiny toolkit for building colorful desktop programs in Ruby" 00:09:03 -why is insane. 00:09:07 -This is no surprise to anyone. 00:09:09 -Except maybe you. 00:09:55 -why is on acid 00:09:58 -Yes. 00:09:59 -Yes he is. 00:09:59 -constantly 00:10:04 -Why is acid. 00:10:33 +what a debased accusation 00:12:13 -i need something with gridview 00:12:31 -you could build that with shoes 00:12:35 -another good option is to stop using ruby 00:13:02 -but i need to write that app fast 00:13:13 -and in ruby it's possible without a hassle 00:13:31 -nooga: your inability to find a gui toolkit is not a hassle? 00:14:06 -a bit 00:21:30 -RHYMING POETRY FIGHT 00:21:43 -extra points for limericks 00:24:36 -00:24 tomh-: i rather use .net/java api's than the one academic haskell people come up with 00:24:41 -here we have a textbook masochis 00:24:42 -t 00:36:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZZZebra"). 00:37:54 -holy shit 00:37:55 -guys 00:37:57 -clog is down 00:38:11 -CLOG HAS BEEN DOWN SINCE YESTERDAY 00:38:13 -AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH 00:39:50 +oh noes? 00:40:24 -OH FUCKING NOES 00:40:26 -THIS NEVER HAPPENS 00:40:29 -WE'RE BEING LOST IN THE VOID 00:40:32 -SHITSHITSHITSHITHSITHISTHSITHISTHIST 00:40:45 * Robdgreat ceases to exist 00:41:02 -gnight 00:41:02 -god i hate this 00:41:22 -ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 01:08:04 +You can use my logs. 01:08:35 -kerlo: are they complete? 01:08:39 -!- kerlo has set topic: /prog/ except COOL FREE RINGTONES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | also, http://normish.org/ihope/public_logs/%23esoteric.log. 01:08:45 +Not nearly as complete as clog's. 01:09:19 -I mean, do they cover all the blackou— oh god. 01:09:22 +But they're relatively complete up to wherever they start; I'm here all day. 01:09:25 -What if clog doesn't fucking come back? 01:09:43 -Oh SHIT. 01:09:46 +Then we find a new bot to log this channel? 01:10:01 -You don't understand. 01:10:06 -I have a *commitment* to clog. 01:10:09 -It's my pal. I get it. 01:10:12 -It makes sense. 01:10:15 -You can't take that away from me. 01:10:17 +No, I don't understand. 01:11:51 +Anyway, I'd like to strip all the CR's from all the CRLF's in a file I have. 01:12:05 -dos2unix 01:12:07 -tofrodos 01:12:08 -OR 01:12:17 -sed -ie 's///' files 01:12:19 -er 01:12:22 -right 01:12:36 * kerlo gets tofrodos 01:12:59 -dos2unix is better, kerlo. 01:14:30 +A little bird told me they're the same thing. 01:14:54 -That little bird would be wrong. 01:15:09 +And by "a little bird", I mean bash when I told it to run dos2unix and it told me that I can get it by typing sudo apt-get install tofrodos, and what happened when I typed tofrodos afterward. 01:15:36 -not bash; that's an ubuntu thingy 01:16:51 +why not sed? 01:17:11 +bsmntbombdood: because dos2unix looks more sophisticated. 01:17:22 +sed is the right way 01:17:31 -more sophisticated is a bad thing 01:21:59 +So, I try to install POCO by running make -s (though it says to use gmake -s, not make -s), and it says "sh: /home/ns/Desktop/junk/poco-1.3.3p1/build/script/makedepend.gcc: not found" even though that file exists. 01:22:27 -wrong architechture./ 01:22:31 -stop running 32 bit programs on 64 bit 01:22:37 -((do you actually know unix?)) 01:23:35 +I'm pretty sure this is a 32-bit system. 01:24:06 -kerlo: is it a slicehost? 01:24:08 -It's 64 bit. 01:24:18 +No, it's a laptop. 01:24:27 -kerlo: How new is it? 01:24:32 -If it's newer than a few years, it's 64 bit. 01:24:46 -But, anyway. 01:24:50 -kerlo: what's in the file? 01:24:54 -Maybe an unknown interpreter. 01:24:56 -On the shebang line 01:26:01 +Hmm, the shebang line has a CR at the end. 01:26:19 -Right you are. 01:26:42 +So should I yell at whoever gave me these files for giving me CRLF instead of LF? 01:26:46 -Yes. 01:27:05 * ehird looks up poco 01:27:10 -kerlo: why are you installing enterprise shit? 01:27:17 -well 01:27:19 -C++ shit. 01:27:21 +I need this to install FMS. 01:27:32 +And I did indeed download the wrong file. 01:27:33 -kerlo: is FMS in your package manager? 01:27:34 -what IS fms? 01:28:03 +The Freenet Message System. 01:28:20 -great; you can talk to pedophiles and idiots. 01:28:25 -completely anonymously! 01:28:31 +Precisely! 01:55:30 +wtf is you talking about 01:55:40 +kerlo: what happened to frost? 01:55:54 +Bad things, according to Wikipedia. 01:58:14 +oh snap 01:58:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 01:58:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:01:30 +been a while since i've been on freenet obviously 02:15:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:02:27 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:04:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:23:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:29:44 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 06:51:24 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:37:52 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:54:26 Also "tr -d '\r'", though it doesn't do in-place. 08:20:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:46:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:46:40 -!- dbc has joined. 10:52:40 +odd 10:52:50 +Deewiant, remember that ht binary editor? 10:53:14 +it segfaults when trying to scroll down elf image mode when scrolling down in a huge binary 10:53:19 +huge == 11 MB in this case 10:53:48 +(as you may have gussed, it is a C++ app) 10:55:39 +and symbol table refuse to scroll past a certain limit hm 11:02:21 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 11:06:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 11:17:08 +today's IWC poll should be easy to answer for anyone in here... 11:17:55 +at least if you go for the humor option, as i did 11:23:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:23:42 +AnMaster: Do you have a 64-bit BSD? 11:47:56 +Deewiant, no, it is 32-bit 11:53:33 +Deewiant, well I may be able to access a friend's 64-bit openbsd, it's sparc64 though 11:53:43 +and I'm not sure it is online currently 11:53:59 +Nah, just wondering if you had an x86-64 BSD to see if it could run dobelx64 11:54:12 +mhm 12:07:46 -!- nooga has joined. 12:09:42 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:17:45 -huuh 12:27:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:30:50 -iy 12:45:56 +nooga: RDParser is sweet 12:49:33 -yep ;d 12:49:37 -awesome 12:49:42 -simple and awesome 12:57:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:11:13 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:25:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:34:29 -§ 13:47:35 * oklopol_ now officially hates c++, especially symbian 14:05:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:44:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:46:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:57:46 -!- neldoreth has joined. 15:00:03 -!- Robdgreat has quit (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:00:06 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 15:17:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:22:05 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 15:32:19 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:39:35 +I so hate C++ 15:41:30 +I spent several hours tracking down a bug in some C++ code that turned out to be due to leaky abstractions 15:42:20 -Abstractions are leaking out of my program! 15:54:47 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:23:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:33:07 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:34:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:41:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("restarting X"). 16:43:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:59:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:16:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:18:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:23:55 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:32:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:37:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:54:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:54:36 +AnMaster: there? 17:55:10 +ais523, yes 17:55:11 +why? 17:55:15 +going to eat soon 17:56:27 +I'm trying to get a second laptop online 17:56:29 +by routing via this one 17:56:34 +but it isn't working 17:56:34 +ais523, uhu 17:56:45 +ais523, and you want my help? 17:56:45 +I have a wired connection between the two laptops (static IP on 10.0.0.1/8) 17:56:53 +I was wondering if you knew anything that might be wrong 17:56:55 +Sorry but I don't know, I hate networking. 17:56:58 +ah, ok 17:57:02 +I was going to ask ehird, but he isn't here 17:57:29 +ais523, set up some NAT thing with iptables/netfilter? 17:57:37 +and that is just what I heard about 17:57:39 +never tried it 17:57:53 +I'm trying a lot simpler than that, just good old-fashioned routing 18:02:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:03:36 You have a public IP for the other laptop, then, if you're going to use good old-fashioned routing? 18:12:19 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 18:12:34 -!- neldoreth has joined. 18:13:17 NATting with iptables is relatively simple. "iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -i wired_iface -o interweb_iface -s 10.0.0.0/8 -j MASQUERADE" to do NAT on outgoing packets routed from wired_iface to interweb_iface; and then you just need to set the routing laptop as default-route for the other laptop, and possibly echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward. And I'm pretty sure things like Ubuntu's network manager thing have a "enable internet connection sh 18:13:19 aring" button in there somewhere. 18:15:47 +fizzie: oh, no public IP 18:15:57 +no wonder it couldn't get connection replies 18:16:03 +anyway, I'm doing it via a proxy atm, that seems to be working 18:16:15 Well, that works too. 18:16:39 +surprisingly slowly, though 18:17:56 If "slowly" means there seems to be some sort of timeout before anything happens, in my experience those tend to be DNS-related in one way or another. Of course if it's just "slow throughput", then that's not it. 18:18:14 +not sure what in particular is slow atm 18:18:26 +things like Google take a long time to react, and then load slowly 18:20:06 You're doing just a standard HTTP proxy and not any sort of SOCKS thing, I guess? 18:21:58 +yep 18:22:02 +HTTP and DNS proxying 18:23:02 Well, if that DNS proxy thing is working, then I don't have any specific ideas. Someone's had this thing, but no replies: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=546962&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a 18:23:18 +it seems to be very bursty speed-wise 18:23:31 +swinging between several mbps and a few kbps 18:28:30 +well, I was stupid to not realise it would need an IP from somewhere 18:28:43 +and this laptop's behind a NAT already, I don't think double-NATting works 18:28:48 +but proxy works fine 18:30:51 -!- MouD has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 18:31:23 There's nothing wrong with double-NATting, though. 18:31:35 +where would all the ports come from? 18:31:45 As far as the "outer" NAT is concerned, all the connections are coming from the in-the-middle laptop. 18:32:22 +but I thought NAT worked by choosing lots of different reply ports 18:32:41 +which laptop determines which ports to use? 18:33:27 There's just two levels of source-port-mapping too. 18:34:14 +does the outer NAT give the inner NAT multiple portsthat it can choose between? 18:34:32 The innermost laptop chooses random source ports; the laptop in the middle changes the source port if there happens to be a conflicty thing (and mangles reply packets accordingly) and the outer nat just does the same thing. 18:34:52 There's no way the outer NAT can even distinguish between traffic generated by the in-the-middle laptop or the innermost laptop. 18:35:07 +oh, I see 18:35:18 +I didn't realise the ports were chosen by the thing inside the NAT 18:35:23 It's not like the NAT box somehow reports the available ports; it just does mappings if there are problems. 18:35:24 +I thought the NAT told the thing inside which port to use 18:36:33 The netfilter NAT maps source ports <512 into other source ports <512; ports in the [512, 1023] range into other <1024 ports; and all >=1024 ports to other >=1024 ports; but whenever possible, no port translation is done. 18:37:10 At least that's what the SNAT target description (basically MASQUERADE for a static IP) says. 18:37:51 Anyway, the "if it works" principle says that if you have a working proxey thing that does what you want... 18:40:10 +well, yes 18:40:20 +only for HTTP, but that's enough to run package managers which is what I really wanted 18:49:14 +I hate C++'s leaky abstractions 18:49:27 +before you joined ais523: 18:49:28 + I spent several hours tracking down a bug in some C++ code that turned out to be due to leaky abstractions 18:49:50 +a bug in wesnoth svn with ?: 18:49:51 +ah, interesting 18:50:05 +were you trying to treat C++ like a regular object-orietned language? 18:50:10 +or was the author of the code? 18:50:29 +ais523, I wasn't 18:50:35 +I was getting memory corruption 18:50:37 +as a user 18:50:47 +how did the ?: leak, anyway? 18:51:05 +ais523, turned out someone had written std::string& foo = condition ? "string constant" : std_string_object; 18:51:22 +which caused memory corruption in the unusual case of the string constant being selected 18:51:30 +since object got freed at end of that line 18:51:34 +or something like that, 18:53:53 +oh, I can see how that could happen 18:54:14 +the correct version would be std::string foo = condition ? "string constant" : std_string_object; 18:54:17 +without the & 18:54:21 +to create a copy if needed 18:54:22 +indeed 18:54:42 +ais523, but only C++ would allow such a subtle bug to cause memory corruption like it did... 18:54:45 +manual memory management is fun 18:55:13 +well C might, but at least there are much fewer abstractions to dig through when debugging it 18:55:54 +ais523, actually C++ is a good idea. Just a horrible implementation. 18:56:33 +I mean combine best of low level C stuff with useful object orientation abstractions. Sounds like a good idea. And objc is a rather good example of it being done right. 18:56:40 +But C++ manages to pick to worst from each instead. 18:57:45 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:58:12 +I'd say that C++ objects aren't abstractions 18:58:26 +they're non-abstract objects 18:59:13 -!- neldoreth has joined. 18:59:16 +ais523, that doesn't contradict what I said 18:59:27 +I said C++ managed to pick the worst, not the best 18:59:49 * AnMaster waits for wesnoth AI to calculate 19:00:21 +it seeems to have trouble on a 95x40 map 19:01:56 +the default AI, or one of the custom ones? 19:02:18 +wesnoth is such a cruel, nasty, and evil game 19:03:02 +ais523, probably custom for this campaign because one of the AIs on this map is way way way worse than all the others 19:03:57 +lament, really? 19:07:12 +yes. 19:09:26 +AnMaster: you're an xorg.conf expert, right/ 19:09:50 +how do you specify keyboard layout? 19:09:51 +ais523, not sure if expert is right word. But I know enough to write my own one yeah. 19:09:56 +ais523, which version? 19:10:08 +I assume you don't use the new ones that uses hal for everything 19:10:18 +AnMaster: not sure 19:10:28 +the laptop here has the wrong keyboard layout, but only when X is running 19:10:29 +Section "InputDevice" 19:10:31 + Identifier "Keyboard1" 19:10:31 + Driver "kbd" 19:10:38 + Option "XkbRules" "xorg" 19:10:39 + Option "XkbModel" "pc105" 19:10:39 + Option "XkbLayout" "se" 19:10:41 +EndSection 19:10:42 +well 19:10:48 +you probably want some more sutff 19:10:51 +ah, there are no rules there at all, it seems 19:11:02 +ais523, then you use hal I guess and then I have no idea. 19:11:04 +do you know what the layout code for a UK keyboard is? 19:11:07 +since I turned off hal 19:11:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:11:44 +ais523, somewhere in /usr/share/X11/ iirc 19:11:54 +I don't know the layout code for UK no 19:12:39 +ais523: For hal, settings could be in /etc/hal/fdi/policy or /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy 19:13:33 +Deewiant, well I tried hal, it loves to misdetect and mess up stuff 19:13:40 +like my joystick was mapped as a mouse 19:13:42 +stuff like that 19:13:43 +Works fine for me 19:13:56 +Deewiant, ever tried connecting a USB joystick then+ 19:13:59 +s/+/?/ 19:14:10 +Never owned a USB joystick, only game port :-P 19:14:43 +meh 19:14:53 +Deewiant, also mouse button mapping on my real mousew 19:14:55 +mouse* 19:14:58 +was messed up too 19:15:08 +Of course it's theoretically possible I could have tried to connect somebody else's USB joystick, but no, I haven't 19:15:22 +All seven mouse buttons work fine for me 19:15:48 +Deewiant, well it mapped them wrong in my case, scroll wheel click and right button were swapped 19:16:04 +and scroll wheel didn't work at all 19:16:10 +I mean scrolling it 19:16:21 +(as opposed to clicking it 19:16:23 +) 19:16:23 +Beats me; like said, WFM 19:16:27 +keyboard code for UK is "gb" it seems 19:18:57 +mhm 19:24:55 +anyway, everything working now, thanks 19:25:18 +luckily it's a pretty uncustomized system, I just renamed all the dotfiles into a different directory to reset the settings... 19:25:52 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:28:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:40:16 +ais523, what are you doing btw? 19:43:04 +helping my brother install TAEB 19:43:08 +atm 19:43:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:43:35 +ais523, I mean with the extra laptop thing 19:43:59 +also you got a brother? heh. 19:44:13 +not interested in esolangs is he? 19:45:55 +not really 19:46:02 +mhm 19:49:11 Maybe some sort of swapped-at-birth case, then? 19:49:32 -!- neldoreth has joined. 19:53:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:00:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:01:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:09:13 +fizzie, hah 20:13:29 +ais523, about manual memory management that we mentioned before. 20:13:54 +you really have to know what C++ is doing to manage memory management correctly there 20:14:08 +yes but that wasn't what I was going to talk 20:14:10 +talk about* 20:14:34 +rather: I remember seeing a C program that had an internal library for reference counted strings 20:14:50 +just odd IMO 20:15:34 +ais523, and this was not to reduce leakage or avoid memory corruption either 20:15:37 +but to save memory 20:15:47 +since it would need to duplicate the string less often 20:16:12 +I mean, they end up the same way, but the code comments talked about the memory usage aspect only 20:17:31 +ais523, btw about wesnoth I just ran across a really strange level in a campaign 20:17:40 +yes? 20:17:43 +the best way to describe it would be boss battle I think 20:17:51 +which doesn't fit very well into the idea of wesnoth 20:17:59 +it worked rather well though 20:18:04 +I think boss bottles are entirely possible in Wesnoth 20:18:09 +although I wouldn't want them every level 20:18:11 +ais523, but not very common 20:18:17 +I can't remember seeing one before 20:18:46 +how does it work? is it against just one powerful enemy? 20:19:13 +mostly, and only recruiting first and second turn 20:19:19 +you can recognize boss bottles by their caps 20:19:29 +oerjan, haha 20:19:42 +ais523, when oerjan is here, remember to check the spelling 20:19:48 +AnMaster: recruiting, or recalling, or both? 20:19:51 +check your spelling? 20:19:53 +ais523, both 20:20:15 +ais523, anyway there are a few other low level enemies too 20:20:28 +there always are in boss battles 20:20:33 +do they have ZoCs? 20:20:42 +or are they level 0 20:20:45 +ais523, well boss seems to be spawning low level enimies 20:20:48 +ah 20:21:06 +which campaign is it, btw? 20:21:11 +IftU 20:21:17 +only works against trunk, not yet mainlined 20:21:24 +rather buggy in parts 20:21:25 +but fun 20:21:33 +what does the abbreviation stand for? 20:21:39 +Invasion from the Unknown 20:21:48 +and I had already started to type that before you asked 20:21:56 +ais523, it is split in two parts 20:21:59 +since it is so large 20:22:08 +I mean the campaign 20:22:29 +can you recall from one to the other? 20:22:49 +Invoice from the Underworld 20:22:53 +ais523, yes you can choose to continue at the end of the first instead 20:23:03 +oerjan, I didn't typo it! 20:23:37 +ais523, as far as I understood, since this boss battle is in first part, around the middle of it 20:23:42 +level 7 20:23:45 +err 8 I mean 20:23:54 +no 7 20:24:09 +Infidels from the Uzbekistan 20:24:23 +oerjan, this isn't even funny you know... 20:25:14 +ais523, the campaign takes place after UtBS btw. 20:25:22 +(Under the Burning Sun) 20:25:44 +wow, that's pretty late 20:25:48 +does it have the weird day/night thing? 20:25:53 +ais523, yes it does. 20:26:08 +Unrelated to Bullshit 20:26:10 +ais523, except it is underground a lot of the time. 20:26:34 -18:43 AnMaster: also you got a brother? heh. 20:26:35 +I don't like underground campagins, just because their music isn't as good 20:26:36 -lol, brothers 20:26:38 -that's so weird XD 20:26:41 -nobody has a brother 20:26:44 +oh my ehird is here too 20:26:57 +he's _not_ your ehird 20:26:59 +ais523, well that is pretty ok in this one 20:27:05 +my,* 20:27:06 +indeed 20:27:22 +a fatal mistake, missing that comma was 20:27:27 -!- olsner has joined. 20:27:35 +(yes grammar messed up was with intent) 20:27:40 +ehird: the so-called "brothers" are all alien spies 20:27:51 -Black people are aliens? 20:27:52 +oerjan: Both? 20:28:26 +I mean, if it's /all/, then surely it applies to ais as well 20:28:34 +ais523, there are references to UtBS, DID, LoW and several other campaigns in it btw. 20:28:38 +Deewiant: Sure 20:28:44 +Yow 20:28:52 +Deewiant, err? 20:28:59 +Err? 20:29:13 +Deewiant, define:Yow 20:29:27 +Slereah: certainly. you thought they were human? 20:29:43 +AnMaster: /yaʊ/ interj. Used to express alarm, pain, or surprise. 20:29:47 +ah 20:30:26 +actually either swedes or norwegians are aliens too, although we cannot agree which 20:30:30 +ais523, also there are some huge desert maps that makes the maps in NR seem rather small. 20:30:39 +ais523, which means it is very slow in some places 20:31:13 +the last map of that hammer of whateveritis campaign is pretty masive 20:31:56 -Hammer Of Whateveritis 20:32:05 -"IE8 to be pushed out via Automatic Updates - yes, even to IE6 users" 20:32:08 -Well, that's quite good. 20:32:13 +ais523, I said it was rather buggy right? this time I only got to recruit during the first turn instead.. 20:32:29 +And yes, it was done with IE7 as well. 20:32:51 +ais523, yeah, I don't really like the Hammar of Thursagn campaign 20:33:11 +well it is more like that than whateveristis :P 20:34:54 +Thursday Hammer 20:34:57 +ais523, anyway, the reason I dislike it is that it is a tragedy, I mean when you play a game you kind of expect that if you win it there will be a good ending 20:35:14 +well, DiD has an even worse ending 20:35:24 +ais523, yes I dislike that one even more 20:35:38 -Uh. 20:35:54 -You know that tragedies have been a fictional device for 7 eons? 20:36:06 +That doesn't mean he's not allowed to dislike them 20:36:09 -If a tragedy is a surprise to you then you're remarkably ignorant. 20:36:10 +oerjan, actually that may be related, since it is about dwarfs, which in fantasy often get Scandinavian names, or variants of them. 20:36:10 +doesn't mean we have to enjoy them 20:36:17 -Deewiant: The point is 'expect'. 20:36:20 +also, DiD isn't even really a tragedy, it doesn't have an ending 20:36:24 -Expecting a non-tragic ending is illogical. 20:36:28 +it just goes into a deliberate loose infinite loop 20:36:32 +ehird: So he meant 'hope'. 20:36:37 +ehird, 1) what Deewiant and ais523 said 2) A book, film or whatever differs from a game 20:36:41 -Deewiant: That is not what he said. 20:36:41 +where you take part more 20:36:47