00:01:38 <ehird> 22:44 AnMaster_ipv6: but bzr don't do the confusing thing that git does where you switch between branches
00:03:58 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/S09806763
00:04:34 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: white w/ t-leg.
00:04:42 <ehird> choose those and the awesome unfolds
00:04:49 <ehird> and because you need JS to select those
00:04:52 <ehird> so the images change
00:05:17 <ehird> it's everything you need in a desk
00:05:21 <ehird> as minimal as possible
00:05:30 <ehird> who needs drawers on a desk?
00:05:52 <ehird> Use standalone drawers.
00:05:57 <ehird> A desk is for putting things on.
00:06:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> would have fitted "<ehird> That's no desk." better
00:06:53 <oklopol> these drawers you speak of
00:07:01 <oklopol> what would they be drawing
00:07:02 <fizzie> ehird: Coincidentally, we have those desks exclusively (80x60+120x60 combinerated for me to a single two-meter-desk with six legs, a single 120x60 for the wife); they are white, although with the A-leg. I don't really remember the justifications for leg-selecting, but I don't have a problem with that either.
00:07:24 <ehird> See, the almighty fizzie uses the Ultimate Desk.
00:07:42 <fizzie> But with the wrong legs!
00:07:45 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
00:07:52 <ehird> what is the difference between length and width
00:08:00 <fizzie> The other is longer. :p
00:08:08 <ehird> Yes but which applies and what
00:08:28 <fizzie> Well, both. They sell the desk parts in sizes 80x60, 120x60 and 120x80.
00:08:40 <fizzie> For that particular thing in the link, it's probably the 120x80 version.
00:08:52 <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory
00:08:57 <ehird> Min. height: 60 cm
00:08:59 <ehird> Max. height: 90 cm
00:09:03 <ehird> That looks very much like one measurement set to me.
00:09:27 <fizzie> Well, yes. It's the 120x80 table. So?
00:09:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory <--- :D
00:09:37 <ehird> fizzie: 120x80, what two dimensions are these?
00:09:49 <ehird> I mean, height, width, thickness are all specified, so wtf is length?
00:10:08 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: "Width: 80cm"
00:10:09 <fizzie> The two dimensions of the actual table plate are "width" and "length".
00:10:20 <ehird> fizzie: so it's 120cm deep?
00:10:30 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/21139_PE106138_S4.jpg ← then this is the longest fuckin' laptop ever
00:10:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: what? that's "Width"
00:10:50 <ehird> since when does width mean depth
00:11:10 <fizzie> Width and length are the two dimensions of the table plate. It's completely up to you how you situate it.
00:11:23 <ehird> Well that's the silly.
00:11:42 <fizzie> The image actually looks more like it's from the 120x60 variant.
00:11:47 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: 'width' and 'length' seem very the equal to me.
00:12:11 <ehird> fizzie: so they make an 80x60 one? that'll be what I want, then
00:12:18 <ehird> This dip thing is only 80cm wide
00:13:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, maybe tomorrow, if I get around to cleaning up the desk
00:13:15 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, I have special requirements (TM). Because I am short, for instance, I need it low down enough that I can see the monitor but still have the keyboard/mous at a comfortable level
00:13:18 <fizzie> ehird: The "More GALANT Desk System Products" -> "Table tops with frames" has the whole set. At least here the "a complete table" combinations actually listed there had a price exactly equal to sum of the parts.
00:13:24 <ehird> And it can only be 80cm wide due to space contraints.
00:13:28 <ehird> And I don't like frills.
00:13:41 <ehird> In conclusion: http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/17840_PE102272_S4.jpg FTW.
00:13:45 <ehird> oklopol: Um. Short. Very.
00:13:51 <ehird> Like, I don't even know.
00:14:17 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: so 6 feet
00:14:17 <fizzie> I opted to hook two of http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/50035115 's to the underside of this two-metres-long table, too.
00:14:22 <ehird> you're as tall as my dad, AnMaster_ipv6.
00:14:31 <ehird> (he is my one and only standard for tallity.)
00:14:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, well, I can't do metric for peoplesizes.
00:14:51 <fizzie> Misread "I can't do metric for pedophiles".
00:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: That's why I converted it for you
00:15:04 <oklopol> i'm like 180, but i'm kinda crouchy, and look more like 170
00:15:30 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I was chceking before you interrupted
00:16:08 <fizzie> ehird: The 120x60 table can be seen in http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg
00:16:14 <kerlo> ehird: alternatively, how tall are you in feet and inches. :-P
00:16:22 * kerlo prepares Google for a metric conversion
00:16:54 <kerlo> 129.54 centimeters.
00:17:07 <kerlo> Unfortunately, that number is probably wrong, seeing as how ehird hasn't actually told us how tall he is yet.
00:17:15 <fizzie> (There are other pictures there of this place in the same directory, although the file names are all in Finnish.)
00:17:27 <kerlo> 111.76 centimeters.
00:17:36 <kerlo> 91.44 centimeters.
00:17:38 <oklopol> fizzie: err, you're a cat?
00:17:53 <oklopol> what the fuck, never cared to mention that?
00:17:57 <kerlo> 71.12 centimeters.
00:17:59 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, well, don't be a specieist.
00:18:30 <fizzie> oklopol: See how I've been locked out on the balcony? That's the sort of treatment I get around here.
00:18:37 <oklopol> being a lizard, i can't say i approve of cats.
00:18:38 <kerlo> Also, fizzie, very clever how you managed to take a picture of yourself from so far away.
00:19:02 <oklopol> especially being locked on the balcony
00:20:07 <ehird> ← I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg.
00:20:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, you used telekinetics to open the door then?
00:20:35 <oklopol> omg you're smaller than my gf
00:21:07 <kerlo> That's 144.78 centimeters, or 4 feet and 9.48031496 inches.
00:21:10 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: No, it only works for controlling the camera.
00:21:10 <ehird> The first words of a few internet-friends I met in August '08 was "you're smaller than I expected".
00:21:24 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/keittion_ikkuna.jpg ← finland is so pretty
00:22:01 <fizzie> The name should be fi:"keittiön ikkuna" =~ en:"window in the kitchen", but I didn't dare to use ö in a file name.
00:22:10 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Your language is ugly though.
00:22:12 <fizzie> The snow's pretty much gone now.
00:22:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yeah but it doesn't look like a joke instead..
00:22:47 <fizzie> A traditional example of an ugly-sounding Finnish phrase is: "Älä rääkkää sitä kääkkää."
00:22:51 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg ← that desk is the pretty but the shape of this room dictates 80cm width
00:22:59 <ehird> fizzie: no that's hot
00:23:10 <ehird> "do not torture that old goat"
00:23:21 <oklopol> käkkäränkkä vänkkää väärää määrää
00:23:26 <fizzie> Yes, that's rather close. I'm not sure how to translate "kääkkä".
00:23:32 <ehird> anyway sweden is like the srs
00:23:36 <ehird> and finland is the jokes
00:24:19 <oklopol> "älä rääkkää räkäkääkkää" would be "do not torture the old snot goat"
00:24:28 <fizzie> The counterpart (i.e. the beautiful Finnish phrase) is "alavilla mailla hallan vaara".
00:24:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Snot is what comes out of your nose.
00:25:02 <olsner> AnMaster_ipv6: snorget
00:26:06 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "risk of frost on low-lying areas" is one translation in the interwebs.
00:26:52 <oklopol> alivallimailan hillan viiru
00:27:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, "risk för frost på låglänta ytor" I think in Swedish
00:27:08 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: figured what out
00:27:34 <olsner> låglänt? is that even a word?
00:28:16 <fizzie> Wiktionary "lowlands" just has translations "Dutch: laagland n" and a Serbian one.
00:28:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> I have heard låglänt or maybe låglent (but don't think so)
00:28:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Results 1 - 10 of about 8,070 for låglänt. (0.12 seconds)
00:29:10 <olsner> oklopol: google translate yields "Do not rääkkää räkäkääkkää"
00:29:40 <olsner> oklopol: you claim to have
00:29:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> "[PDF] Bebyggelse från äldre bronsålder i låglänt terräng - ww.arkeologiuv.se/publikationer/rapporter/vast/2008/rv2008_10.pdf
00:29:52 <oklopol> rääkkää is a pretty basic finnish word, and räkäkääkkää should be simple to decompose, google translate sucks.
00:30:43 <oklopol> need to go to sleep soon methinks
00:31:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> "Sanakirja.org - Käännökset haulle låglänt (ruotsi-suomi). Käännöspeli. Lähdekieli: Ruotsi." <-- what
00:31:19 <fizzie> olsner: Google Translate does know the infinitive form of "rääkkää", which is "rääkätä".
00:32:07 <fizzie> Uh... "Sanakirja.org - Translations for the search låglänt (ruotsi-suomi). Translation game. Source language: Swedish."
00:32:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> "Käännös. Adjektiivit. 1. alava. Sana kuuluu seuraaviin luokkiin: ..." too
00:32:23 <fizzie> Er, "ruotsi-suomi" being "Swedish-Finnish", forgot that part.
00:32:42 <fizzie> "Translation. Adjectives. 1. low-lying. The word belongs to the following classes: ..."
00:32:53 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure if low-lying is the correct term.
00:33:09 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "Dictionary".
00:33:16 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I just didn't want to mess the DNS name.
00:33:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, well there was "låglänt - Wikisanakirja" too
00:44:44 <ehird> Perl golf challenge: Take two filenames, XOR the file contents together char-by-char.
00:45:00 <ehird> <> only uses the first arg I think :-(
00:45:16 <fizzie> <> will read both files, but I don't think you can tell where the files change.
00:45:37 <fizzie> There probably was some magic current-file variable, though.
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00:48:30 <fizzie> Ah, you can use non-argument "eof" to determine when the file has closed. "perldoc -f eof" has an example. Not sure how golf-friendly that is.
00:48:49 <fizzie> I guess it would be reasonably short to change some sort of mode with that.
00:49:00 <ehird> at this point why not just slurp argvs
00:49:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> anti-golf: which is the most verbose programming language (in general, it can of course differ between tasks)
00:50:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, intercal would be better for certain bitwise operations though :D
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01:03:29 <gliopol> well how come you have both
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01:18:04 <ehird> http://technically.us/spde/Fold ← this is neat.
01:36:17 <pikhq> Walmart: land of the absurdly odd bundles of Magic cards.
01:36:33 <pikhq> They sell packaged bundles which consist of a pack and some random cards...
01:36:47 <pikhq> I got cards from freaking Unlimited.
01:55:38 <kerlo> Magic: that game where one of the main ways to improve is by paying a certain company.
01:56:01 <kerlo> It's very unique in that respect. Completely unlike any other trading card game or MMORPG.
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10:16:19 <asiekierka> I'm trying to make a sorta-TV-channel again
10:22:59 <Deewiant> Can you write a working 'cat' in DOBELA? I thought about it a bit and failed
10:27:06 <Deewiant> It's at the point that it can run 'Hello!' (after I fixed the one on the wiki), now I'd like a more sophisticated test program :-P
10:28:22 <asiekierka> I think we have to clarify the outputting a bit more
10:28:37 <asiekierka> If there is a COMPLETE BYTE (8 bits) to output, it outputs it, and outputs all complete bytes
10:28:51 <asiekierka> If there are any bits left (less than 8), it ignores them
10:28:57 <Deewiant> Meh, that'd make it too easy :-P
10:29:18 <Deewiant> I think the more basic issue is that I don't see a way of doing 'do X every 8 iterations'
10:29:42 <asiekierka> Except if we do a loop that takes 8 iterations
10:29:57 <Deewiant> One thing that I thought of that might make it possible (and probably a lot of other things easier) is if we had a duplication instruction
10:30:04 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I tried that and failed
10:30:11 <Deewiant> Since the dot dies on hitting the generator
10:30:17 <Deewiant> And also when hitting the output
10:30:23 <Deewiant> With duplication it could be done
10:30:44 <Deewiant> Since you could then fork a dot to hit both the ^ and the :
10:30:44 <asiekierka> As in, when hit east or west, the same dot is sent north and south?
10:31:05 <Deewiant> Yes, and while we're at it, when hit north/south it's sent east/west
10:31:47 <asiekierka> Also, I wonder what to do with asievision
10:32:05 <Deewiant> Maybe DOBELA's now a bit closer to 99% TC :-P
10:32:44 <Deewiant> So can you write cat for me now? ;-)
10:33:21 <Deewiant> I have a bunch of work to do today so I probably won't have time to look at it... no worries if it takes you a week :-P
10:37:53 <asiekierka> Why? ^ can output AND change the data of all generators
10:38:04 <Deewiant> You need more than one generator?
10:39:05 <asiekierka> It should switch it in 2 cycles, but that's still not fast enough
10:39:26 <asiekierka> cuz a generator outputs every other cycle
10:39:44 <Deewiant> Remember that : starts on the second cycle and _ on the first
10:40:01 <asiekierka> So it requires 16 cycles for _ to output
10:40:02 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it might be easiest to start with
10:40:15 <Deewiant> So you get a bit of input every cycle
10:40:54 <asiekierka> And to make it 2 cycles, :+ doesn't need a space
10:40:55 <Deewiant> And then you need to hit a ^ at any multiple of 8
10:41:30 <asiekierka> I think if it hits a generator or something directly in the same cycle as being output, both count
10:41:38 <asiekierka> So Cycle 2: A dot gets output AND duplicated
10:41:48 <asiekierka> cycle 3: Hits a wall and toggles the generator off
10:42:34 <Deewiant> Like said, I don't have time today :-P
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10:42:55 <Deewiant> You don't need to do it now if you don't feel like it
10:44:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> Well, now it's 99.25% TC I think <-- does such a measure even make sense?
10:44:11 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Does DOBELA even make sense?
10:44:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> so this interpreter, where can it be found Deewiant
10:45:00 <Deewiant> It doesn't implement much of anything yet
10:45:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, <insert rant about cathedral vs the bazaar>
10:45:13 <Deewiant> If you really want it, I can put the binary up
10:45:24 <Deewiant> It can only really run 'Hello world' though
10:46:13 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/zrKO1Q68.html - this is my idea
10:46:29 <Deewiant> I actually tried to think of a BF interpreter in DOBELA but then soon realized that I can't even implement cat :-P
10:46:43 <asiekierka> And it does not need to be a multiple of 8
10:46:55 <asiekierka> You know, if there are 9 bits stored, 8 are output and 1 is left
10:47:01 <asiekierka> 19 bits - 16 are output and 3 are left
10:47:07 <asiekierka> So duh, why do you need a multiple of 8?
10:47:08 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output
10:47:21 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And as for 'why' — because that's what the specs currently say :-P
10:47:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output <--- ‽
10:48:27 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/Zo1qa570.html ok, I did it I think
10:49:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> afaik you can only output complete bytes on most systems
10:49:10 <asiekierka> Well, it fills the byte with 0's if it's partial
10:49:28 <Deewiant> asiekierka: By the way, a problem with collision: What happens after ..#
10:50:09 <asiekierka> Theoretically they should create a wall
10:50:21 <Deewiant> Not according to the current rules
10:50:34 <Deewiant> asiekierka: Since '.. ' should be ' ..' next cycle
10:50:44 <asiekierka> As far as I remember, it does a collision if it can't be resolved
10:50:52 <Deewiant> But what happens there is that first the dot on the left moves so you have '.#' where there are two dots on the .
10:51:02 <Deewiant> Then the next dot turns but doesn't move
10:51:40 <Deewiant> So a wall gets created when the next dot finds out that it's standing on top of another dot?
10:51:52 <asiekierka> According to my rules, the first dot should stay in place, but the second hits the wall
10:52:22 <Deewiant> With top-left scanning the first dot should move first
10:52:28 <Deewiant> How would it know to stay in place
10:52:53 <Deewiant> That'd make moving a single dot O(n) where n is the size of the program
10:53:00 <Deewiant> Since it potentially has to scan n dots
10:53:13 <Deewiant> Yay, O(n^2) to move those dots
10:53:27 <Deewiant> And a pain in the ass to implement :-P
10:53:34 <asiekierka> So then, I think i'll go lazy and just make the dots create a wall
10:53:51 <Deewiant> And I guess this would be the same regardless of whether it's ,.# ,,# .,# ..#
10:53:52 <asiekierka> The first dot moves and the second bounces from the wall
10:54:37 <Deewiant> So you'd change how walls work?
10:55:07 <asiekierka> Because the second dot moves according to the wall rules
10:55:21 <Deewiant> Because the wall rules are currently that the dot turns but doesn't move
10:56:10 <asiekierka> I change the rules to "turn and then move one space"
10:56:29 <Deewiant> Where the dot to the north is moving south
10:56:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, btw why haven't you implemented this lang yourself?
10:57:19 <asiekierka> Tada! I waste 3 cycles on a collision!
11:01:26 -!- asiekierka has set topic: topic appoppic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D aproppotic *popaboom*.
11:03:43 <lifthrasiir> DOBELA looks interesting, though i'm not yet clear how complex program can be achieved
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11:10:26 <Deewiant> asiekierka: So then collision detection is O(n) again :-/
11:13:52 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Nah, then just make every pair of these create a wall
11:14:01 <asiekierka> or whatever opposite-direction moving is handled
11:14:40 <asiekierka> You know, DOBELA is all special exceptions OR extremely stupid ideas
11:14:53 <Deewiant> asiekierka: But do you still think walls mean turn+move instead of just turn?
11:15:37 <Deewiant> That's an infinite loop in the interpreter then :-P
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11:17:16 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Then not, though I'd need to rework my engine then
11:17:31 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's best to make it mean just turn
11:18:12 <asiekierka> Just make the second-duplicator loop double size
11:18:29 <Deewiant> I think the one that goes down from the first + fails
11:18:47 <Deewiant> Yep: you'll need another generator
11:19:42 <Deewiant> Then the upper : needs just one + and some timing.
11:22:33 <asiekierka> Wait, I need to think whether hitting ^ to restart generators on cycle 16 does make them work on cycle 16
11:22:55 <asiekierka> If not, I will need to remove the E near the rightmost ^
11:23:03 <asiekierka> (1-E are hex digits for counting the cycles
11:23:29 <Deewiant> asiekierka: If they are more southeast, then yes
11:24:39 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And btw, the dot that goes west from that + won't work like that: you have it turning first counterclockwise and then clockwise twice, but it should always turn counterclockwise
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11:31:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, asiekierka: seriously, DOBELA does seem to have too many obscure rules.
11:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it's an esolang
11:31:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's his spec, not mine.
11:31:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> so I think the interpreter should be named that...
11:31:21 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: also, interesting nick
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11:38:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't get the reference, FWIW.
11:38:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw, so far the only gcc option that actually seems to break cfunge is -ffast-math (which make DATE fail in mycology), not are make it faster, but no other ones in the optimising section of the manual seem to actually produce a broken program. I'm currently checking which exact option that -ffast-math enables it is that breaks cfunge...
11:39:19 <Deewiant> Found it on Wikipedia, never heard of it before.
11:39:44 <ais523> well, Deewiant isn't British, that's just about a small excuse for not having heard of Mornington Crescent
11:40:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I never heard of it before it was mentioned in this channel, but it has been mentioned so often in here...
11:41:10 <ais523> mornington crescent's one of the best-known parts of ISIHAC
11:41:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I find no mention in my logs since February.
11:41:21 <ais523> but there are others, such as the bit where they sing one song to the tune of another
11:41:24 <Deewiant> That doesn't count as 'often' then. :-P
11:41:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Don't have them handy.
11:41:59 <ais523> "I'm Sorry, I Haven't A Clue"
11:42:04 <ais523> the name of a British radio program
11:42:15 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/irclogs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep -i mornington 200[3-8]* | wc -l
11:42:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure either that this qualifies as "often".
11:43:48 <fizzie> Those 9 are at: 2006-06-15 18:20:08; 2008-06-15 00:40:26; 2008-06-18 00:00:07..00:02:23; 2008-07-03 18:54:28; 2008-12-15 19:21:32..19:21:46.
11:44:09 <fizzie> So it's been mentioned at about five occasions.
11:44:57 <fizzie> The set of "crescent" matches is equal, except with one addition: [2008-06-18 00:00:48] < tusho> #nomicton-crescent if anyone wants to try it
11:46:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> -ffast-math breaks cfunge under gcc 4.1 but not 4.3 it seems
11:48:11 -!- gliopol has changed nick to oklopol.
11:48:28 <ais523> oklopol: interesting nick you just changed from
11:48:31 <ais523> is there a story behind it
11:48:49 <oklopol> it's always either social blabber, your incomprehensible unix talk, or befunge
11:49:30 <fizzie> <oklopol> glio glio bolf glo flomog
11:49:30 <fizzie> * oklopol is now known as gliopol
11:49:33 <fizzie> For some values of "story".
11:49:36 <oklopol> it doesn't suffi...xify well
11:50:09 * oklopol takes a deeper look at dobela
11:51:17 <asiekierka> I want to make a better esolang though
11:51:34 <fizzie> oklopol: When you gaze deep into dobela, the dobela gazes into you.
11:51:49 <fizzie> oklopol: You must face the dobela alone.
11:52:59 <oklopol> don't fix it too much, from the discussion above it seems it is currently the interesting kind of esolang, since no one knows it's whether it's tc
11:53:32 <oklopol> i mean for sure, usually you can tell by a glance
11:53:56 <oklopol> fizzie: i plan to, unless someone wants to share my monitor with me
11:55:04 <oklopol> and "do" is pronounced like the "do" in "don't" :D
11:55:42 <fizzie> "DOBELA -- putting the "do" back in "don't"."
11:55:46 <oklopol> (probably not intended,and probably not funny in any way)
11:56:16 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: was slashes discussed last night?
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11:58:33 <asiekierka> I wonder what would my new esolang be like
11:58:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
11:58:55 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: well, i agree that's one of the gems; but i'm more interested in the fact something happened here :D
11:59:54 <asiekierka> I need a language that will make some videos for me
12:00:05 <asiekierka> but I'm afraid an interpreter will take a while to do
12:00:54 <oklopol> ".= turns into a =,", does that mean it moves :DD
12:01:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> I should try to make a complete list of all gcc command line options
12:02:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
12:02:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
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12:09:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC 4.3.2 --help -v supports some 770+ unique options
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12:10:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> a bit hard to count since some are listed like: -Wnormalized=<id|nfc|nfkc> Warn about non-normalised Unicode strings
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12:10:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> --param l1-cache-size The size of L1 cache --param l1-cache-line-size The size of L1 cache line
12:12:05 <oklopol> didn't Deewiant say cat was impossible to implement
12:12:23 <oklopol> i must have misunderstood something because there's a cat on the page
12:12:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, I think they were trying to add something to support it
12:13:22 <oklopol> hmmmmm right actually that's not a cat
12:13:28 <oklopol> just collects stuff on the queue
12:13:47 <oklopol> there's that rules that the dots can stop each other from moving
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12:14:01 <oklopol> so maybe you could have two generators
12:14:34 <oklopol> and as long as stuff came out the stdin, they'd always block the dots for one cycle, and the two generators' dots would collide
12:14:54 <oklopol> they wouldn't collide, and a generator would be set on
12:15:10 <oklopol> and dots would start coming out, emptying the queue into stdout
12:15:32 <oklopol> well dunno, i should start reading my readings now
12:18:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, hm this requires that there isn't any delay in the input data right?
12:19:07 <oklopol> i assume that delays the whole program
12:19:22 <oklopol> otherwise it's trivially impossible to know when there's no input left
12:19:39 <oklopol> couldn't you just output the contents of the queue all the time
12:20:01 <oklopol> well, maybe i'm fundamentally misunderstanding something
12:20:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: You can't output every bit, you have to output every byte
12:20:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> I think it is wrong for esolangs to use blocking IO
12:21:38 <oklopol> but, couldn't you still use the idea of waiting for eof?
12:22:55 <Deewiant> You can try, I couldn't figure out a way of getting it to work
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12:23:12 <ais523> just send a literal control-D when you reach the end of the file
12:23:23 <oklopol> actually my idea doesn't work
12:23:35 <oklopol> there are both 1- and 2-dots
12:23:44 <oklopol> so clearly you cannot rely on that delaying behavior
12:23:54 <oklopol> because if one delays, the other is destroyed
12:24:12 <oklopol> and because there's no duplication, it's impossible to get any use out of
12:25:12 <ais523> is there a Funge fingerprint for it
12:25:29 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL can simulate a select(), but you need to run multiple programs at once and use network connections
12:25:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I guess you could do it in Feather though?
12:25:57 <ais523> Feather doesn't really define its I/O environment at all
12:26:15 <ais523> it just uses abstract input/output streams, the implementation decides what they're connected to, if anything
12:27:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, with implementation defined extensions for sockets and such possibly?
12:28:05 <ais523> that would just be another input/output stream
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12:33:18 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an esolang represented as lines
12:33:49 <asiekierka> but they can go up and down and right, never back left
12:34:44 <asiekierka> So basically, 2 variables: Angle and Length :P
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12:35:36 <asiekierka> It would be cool if it had a mechanical interpreter
12:36:13 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: there are angle-based graphical languages like Wierd, but i don't know any angle-and-length-based one
12:36:47 <asiekierka> well, it is angle and length of the line going at that angle
12:37:22 <asiekierka> Well, this language can be interpreted only with a ruler and a protractor
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12:38:13 <asiekierka> and written with a pen and a ruler and a protractor
12:38:41 <asiekierka> except if you interpret the results yourself
12:39:24 <asiekierka> -5 to 5 degrees of angle: NOP for x milimetres
12:40:01 <asiekierka> 5 to 30: Increment variable (3+(x*5)), where x is the length
12:40:50 <asiekierka> so the length can be 3, 8, 13, 18, or 23
12:41:16 <asiekierka> But I can't believe I'm making an esolang for which you only need a ruler and a protractor
12:41:59 <asiekierka> er, 5 to 30 should be: Increment variable x, and the calculation for drawing the line is (3+x*5)
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12:45:17 <asiekierka> i made my first program that makes no sense
12:45:34 <asiekierka> First it nop's for 10 cycles, then it increments variables 0 and 1 and decrements 2
12:45:47 <Ilari> asiekierka: Add instructions to change "speed", the space being transformed from underlying space to reading space using Lorentz tranformations. :-)
12:46:09 <asiekierka> Ilari: I'm not a maths geek so I don't know what you mean
12:46:20 <asiekierka> But i still have 300 degrees left to use
12:48:08 <asiekierka> I will show you how the program looks like
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12:48:48 <asiekierka> as i'm too lazy to pull out my scanner
12:49:45 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: When one's speed reaches the speed of light, what he/she sees is distorted according to his/her direction.
12:51:34 <lifthrasiir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorentz_transform_of_world_line.gif it is very excellent image explaining such behavior
12:52:13 <asiekierka> It doesn't help much, but I get the idea
12:52:33 <Slereah_> There's a much better example actually
12:52:52 <Slereah_> There's a software that lets you pilot a little spaceship at relativistic speeds
12:53:27 <lifthrasiir> for example, http://www.adamauton.com/warp/ ?
12:53:45 <lifthrasiir> there are plenty of programs there, search for "relativity simulation" for example
12:58:14 <asiekierka> but i still don't quite get it, but nah, lemme upload how a typical handmade Anglent program looks like
12:58:23 <asiekierka> (Anglent is a temporary name, maybe it'll stay)
12:59:38 <asiekierka> http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6489/dsc01722q.jpg - here you go
13:00:05 <asiekierka> the last NOP line may NOT be working but should
13:00:17 <asiekierka> The interp should handle errors in draw
13:03:24 <ais523> sorry, I was having technical problems trying to load it
13:03:33 <ais523> I'll let you know when I can actually see the image
13:04:02 <ais523> is it just a weird way to represent a program
13:04:07 <ais523> or are you going to add restrictions
13:04:21 <ais523> such as preventing the line crossing itself, or forcing it to come back to its starting point, or something?
13:04:27 <ais523> you could have multithreading by branching and rejoining the lines
13:04:34 <ais523> maybe Befunge-style loops, too
13:04:51 <ais523> although those would involve going left
13:05:03 <asiekierka> The "Audioform/Basic" version can't branch, is just a long, variously curved line
13:06:08 <asiekierka> You can't do them in Audioform/Basic. Why? Cuz Audioform/Basic is the version capable of possibly being stored in a WAV file
13:06:31 <asiekierka> Audioform/Pro allows to jump back by x milimetres, where x is the length of the line
13:06:46 <asiekierka> But i'm going to work on Audioform/Pro first
13:07:00 <asiekierka> So 30-45 degrees is: Jump back by x milimetres
13:07:28 <asiekierka> 45-55 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 0 is larger than 0
13:07:35 <asiekierka> Oh, and variables can have values from 0 to 9
13:07:52 <asiekierka> Why? Cuz I want to make an interpreter that doesn't need any electronics
13:08:25 <asiekierka> Oh, and -30 to -40 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 1 is larger than 0
13:09:23 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't offhand, I assume someone does but they might not be in this channel
13:09:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, but even wikipedia's article on whois doesn't mention any
13:10:35 <asiekierka> -40 to -50 is: Swap variable x with variable 0. The length is (3+x*5)
13:10:43 <asiekierka> -50 to -60 is the same, but with variable 1.
13:10:57 <asiekierka> So -60 to 55, which leaves me 30 on the minus side and 35 on the plus side
13:11:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, well I found some I think, seems the RIPE one is open or shared source (not sure yet)
13:12:10 <asiekierka> Ok, so, ais523: Any ideas what to do with the leftover command space?
13:12:32 <asiekierka> I think I may do an input command, as in "Set whatever variable you want in variable 0"
13:13:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/software/whoisserver-nightly.tgz <-- hm *loading*
13:13:29 <asiekierka> And well, you can't go left so you must do meaningless commands to be on the right track
13:13:49 <asiekierka> a bunch of -4 degree "nop 3" or something
13:14:25 <asiekierka> Or -25 "dec 0" and +10 "inc 0", that gives you -15 in 6 milimetres
13:14:55 <asiekierka> Or -28 and +7, which gives you -21 degrees
13:16:13 <asiekierka> Remember, going over -90 or 90 degrees is an error in a computer interpreter
13:16:38 <fizzie> Yes, I think SixXS uses the RIPE server sources too for whois.sixxs.org.
13:17:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> and there is an embedded imap server software it seems
13:17:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> with code around for AMIGA and DOS (in the directory for the imap part)
13:20:35 <asiekierka> Well, I'm working on a rough template of a Anglent interpreter board
13:21:22 <asiekierka> which you need to combine with a drawing of an Anglent program
13:21:47 <asiekierka> An Anglent board currently contains the state of v0 to v4
13:22:33 <ais523> asiekierka: why not v6?
13:22:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw anyone made a non-discrete automaton yet? DOBELA is after all discrete, using ticks, and cells
13:22:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Gravity, but it's uncomputable
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13:23:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I know that one is uncomputable. But is it possible to make a computable automaton like that?
13:23:17 <asiekierka> And you CAN have more than 5 variables
13:23:19 <ais523> asiekierka: clearly I should make my jokes more obvious
13:23:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, because I don't know *why* Gravity is uncomputable
13:23:56 <asiekierka> Oh, and for multithreading programs you need more Anglent boards
13:23:57 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: because you need infinite precision in solving differential equations to solve it
13:24:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ah right. What I meant would be something like that Photon idea I had. where program was controlled by photons hitting mirrors that moved to cause sensitive switches to change and such
13:25:12 <asiekierka> And 65 to 80 degrees is: Exchange between process x and process 0, where the line length is (2+(x*4)) mm
13:25:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean, tracing the photons emitted to see what they hit
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13:26:55 <asiekierka> Forking is represented by drawing a straight line down from the process you want to fork from.
13:27:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you are going to implement it yourself this time?
13:27:42 <asiekierka> AnMaster: If by "implement" you mean "the human interpreter board", I already did that
13:27:53 <asiekierka> Because it is intended to be interpreted by a human
13:28:53 <asiekierka> So, yep, but an interpreter is centrainly possible, but human is better for such things
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13:30:32 <asiekierka> Of course, it would be a pain to interpret if it splits in 25 processes or something
13:30:48 <asiekierka> ANGLENT: (process amount) users required!
13:31:18 <asiekierka> Oh, and if a process ends, the board can be reused
13:31:39 <asiekierka> Why? Because it may still copy data from that process
13:31:56 <asiekierka> So we need -60 to -70: Remove process x, where the line length is (5+(x*5)) mm
13:31:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, example program please. Because I have no idea what you are trying to describe
13:32:07 <asiekierka> I already gave a link, but it's simple
13:32:51 <asiekierka> I'm making a program showing more features
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13:33:29 <asiekierka> There is a "jump back if variable 0 > 0"
13:33:37 <asiekierka> and you can swap different variables with variables 0 and 1
13:34:15 <asiekierka> Well, you CAN extend memory by using more processes
13:34:44 <asiekierka> Variables are digits from 0 to... guess.
13:35:03 <asiekierka> Because it's meant to be interpreted by human
13:35:32 <asiekierka> And I don't want to make the boards too large
13:35:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> well and? Humans calculated pi to several hundred digits long before computers were invented
13:36:00 <asiekierka> That's the good thing, it only defines the commands
13:36:12 <asiekierka> it doesn't define anything else, the number of processes, number of digits
13:37:55 <asiekierka> the other point is that it can't go left
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13:39:17 <asiekierka> but that's not drawing a line backwards
13:39:52 <asiekierka> By "the line can't go backwards" I meant "the line can't be drawn backwards, it must go right, even if by a minimal amount"
13:40:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you need to write a reference implementation that interprets svg images
13:40:06 <asiekierka> The exception is forking, cuz you draw a straight line down for that
13:40:31 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Why can't I just show you an image of a program and how it works when interpreted
13:40:54 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Or make a video where I interpret a program myself?
13:41:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> what about making each program recursively fork new ones
13:41:38 <asiekierka> Well, you need to remove a process for it to not count
13:41:50 <asiekierka> By making a fork and jumping back so you can make the fork again
13:41:58 <asiekierka> without removing the previous process's data
13:42:36 <asiekierka> Well, you can't clone the program you're doing
13:42:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can the forked process jump back to the previous program to make a fork too
13:42:50 <asiekierka> The forked process is it's own set of commands
13:42:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Incidentally, I just solved that "matrix too short" issue I had.
13:42:58 <asiekierka> but it may exchange data between any process
13:43:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> so you can't make an exponential growing fork bomb
13:43:54 <asiekierka> Well, I need to add a "jump forward" command for that
13:43:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hope you can skip code depending on if a variable is set or not
13:44:36 <asiekierka> -70 to -80: Jump forward x milimetres if v0 > 0, length is (4+(x*5))
13:45:08 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: My original sound source was a .mp3 file recorded from one of those interweb radios; the script used sox to turn that to a raw audio file for the Octave analysis. I was correctly looking at the raw audio file for the amount of samples, but accidentally reading the from the unconverted MP3. So one of the blocks was shorter because it hit the end of the MP3 file, and the blocks after that were full-length since fseek-past-end-of-file was actually
13:45:08 <fizzie> silently failing in Octave, and they started reading from the beginning of the file.
13:45:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes sure, but I can't see how you could make each process be a sub-fork-bomb
13:46:01 <fizzie> (Of course reading the .mp3 file as a raw audio file also meant the results were, shall we say, suboptimal. Whelp, that's about twenty hours of CPU time wasted.)
13:46:10 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I think you can make each fork process be an infinite loop
13:47:09 <asiekierka> And you can make an infinite fork-creating loop in the main process
13:47:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, yep but that is not what I asked about
13:47:28 <oklopol> fizzie: how much was wasted in human money?
13:47:31 <asiekierka> You can't make every process a sub-fork-bomb
13:47:38 <asiekierka> Except if a program could fork-clone itself
13:47:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Depends on the amount of $$$s you give for my sanity, I guess.
13:47:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can't it draw a straight line up to a previous program?
13:48:20 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I did think of that but it may get too messy for a human
13:48:28 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of drawing a straight line up to CLONE a process
13:48:44 <asiekierka> as in, like forking, but it does whatever the process forked from is doing
13:48:58 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, some vaguely definable part of that was lost. Maybe around one euro, then.
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13:49:40 <oklopol> fizzie: well i assume you value your sanity more than me
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13:51:19 <fizzie> Yes. Well, a more objective number would be the amount of electrons wasted, but I don't care enough to start approximating that.
13:58:08 <asiekierka> well, it nops 5, inc's v0, clones itself, nops 10 and jumps back just to the moment of cloning
13:58:26 <asiekierka> http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9668/dsc01723m.jpg
13:59:24 <asiekierka> Well, it will work on a COMPUTER interpreter
13:59:34 <asiekierka> cuz HUMAN interpreters will probably realize it's a forkbomb
14:01:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you completely failed to detect the INTERCAL reference right?
14:02:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: "execute PLEASE" is redundant
14:02:58 <ais523> you should just say "and PLEASE GIVE UP instead"
14:03:13 <ais523> INTERCAL's syntax was designed to be embedded into natural-lanuage English sentences, and you even fail to use that feature?
14:05:13 <oklopol> yes AnMaster_ipv6 how dare you not be good at it
14:05:28 <oklopol> there is an infinite amount of crap in my keyboard
14:05:35 <oklopol> when i turn it upside down
14:06:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> 2) figure out a way to use it as memory then make an UTM
14:06:03 <oklopol> an infinite stream of all kindsa stuff snows down
14:06:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, don't waste the possibility to make an UTM!
14:08:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, interesting, gcc has an option to try to make use of delayed branch slots...
14:08:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> If supported for the target machine, attempt to reorder instructions to exploit instruction slots available after delayed branch instructions.
14:09:04 <fizzie> Is that turned on by default? One would think it would be.
14:15:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, there are lots of interesting flags to gcc, did you see what I said above there seems to be roughly over 770 of them
14:15:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> (a bit hard to measure, the --help -v output is not that simple to parse)
14:15:45 <fizzie> Did not notice that, no.
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> also: <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC has an anti-inline option
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
14:16:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
14:16:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
14:17:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, around that is info about the 770 flags in logs
14:20:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, I did catch the gist of it: there are some 770+ options.
14:22:31 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: the documentation for --help=undocumented is obviously lying
14:22:41 <ais523> now you can decide whether it counts as a documented switch or not
14:23:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, It seems to mean there is no --help text stored for the switch
14:23:54 <asiekierka> So, well, I gotta collect all Anglent commands
14:23:55 <ais523> well, yes, that's a good definition of undocumented
14:24:04 <ais523> and it is auto-generated, gcc has command-line option definition files
14:24:15 <ais523> its whole command-line option infrastructure is /really/ over the top
14:24:28 <ais523> but I suppose with 770 options, it needs a pretty heavyweight infrastructure
14:24:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, Why doesn't it use GNU getopt_long? After all it is a GNU project so why...
14:24:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably it does internally, but are you going to pass 770 options to it by hand?
14:25:00 <ais523> also, the options depend on things like compile-time flags
14:25:24 <ais523> so it has a heavy infrastructure for trying to make sure the options end up in the binary
14:25:28 <ais523> and also in the documentation
14:26:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yeah openmp is a compile time option for gcc itself. So the existence of -openmp (or whatever) at compile time(1) depends options passed at compile time(2)
14:27:20 <ais523> in gcc-bf, all the compile-time options are actually link-time, passed with -Wl
14:27:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, even that -m open I suggested to select EOF value?
14:28:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I haven't implemented that yet, but it's a library issue not a main-program issue
14:29:35 <ais523> I haven't worked on it for a while
14:29:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean can you get it to generate a runnable program
14:29:45 <ais523> I can run some very simple programs
14:29:57 <ais523> the current state is that some features, like multiplication, are missing
14:30:00 <ais523> and most of the others are buggy
14:30:10 <ais523> but it does generate bf, sometimes the bf even works
14:30:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, the patch to gcc I could host, the full gcc would be a bit too large.
14:30:43 <ais523> well, let me create something to host first
14:31:00 <ais523> I haven't slept for 5 or 6 nights in a row
14:31:08 <ais523> although I have been sleeping over the day to make up
14:31:34 <ais523> and because I've been getting my University project report finished, it's worth a massive number of marks and the deadline's tomorrow
14:32:26 <ais523> I came in today to look up a reference
14:36:32 <ais523> wow, some spam I can actually read
14:36:33 <fizzie> Heh, we have this pair-wise university project that is now approximately two years late of the deadline, because the deadline was a "soft" one. It's "almost done", hoping to finish it tomorrow.
14:36:34 <ais523> "We apologize for contacting you at this time of the day on 08:16 AM , and we hope that we haven't interrupted you in anyway, but we wanted to make sure that you received the message that we sent you last week. We have checks ready to send you for offering us your honest opinion on various online surveys that only take a few minutes to complete."
14:36:48 <ais523> it's even spelt correctly and almost has correct grammar
14:36:54 <ais523> something's gone wrong with the world
14:37:48 <ais523> (I set my email client to never show HTML email; if there's no plain text it just shows nothing. This has the nice side effect of meaning most spam doesn't show up.)
14:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, does anyone actually enable HTML email support?
14:39:27 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you'd be surprised
14:39:35 <ais523> pretty much all internet users have it on by default
14:40:08 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: but then you couldn't send people emails with smileys and pictures in
14:40:19 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to send an HTML form by email
14:40:59 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you don't get the point, the point isn't to send information
14:41:03 <ais523> the point is that the email /looks pretty/
14:42:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> you could make your email client convert them in pure text messages
14:42:43 * AnMaster_ipv6 has seen a bug tracker that converted smilies everywhere
14:42:55 <fizzie> You can't have that pretty pink background in your message.
14:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: emails sent in Outlook by default not only use HTML, but with some awful Microsoft out-of-bound information
14:43:16 <ais523> also, replies come up in blue
14:43:23 <ais523> personally I think it looks hideous
14:43:44 <fizzie> MSN messenger converts (or at least used to) some pretty common character combination to a smiley, I think it was ":s".
14:43:47 <ais523> I haven't slept for almost 24 hours, please forgive me
14:44:01 <ais523> fizzie: in what way is :s common?
14:44:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, add notice at top saying: For best viewing experience set your terminal emulator to use pink background.
14:44:14 <ais523> I'd say MSN is probably acting according to the wishes of the majority of its users
14:44:29 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: err... how many people view email on a terminal emulator nowadays/
14:44:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well ok, but usually GUI clients doesn't have features like that
14:45:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus making text based ones more flexible (as usual)
14:45:21 <ais523> they do have HTML email support, always in my experience
14:45:25 <ais523> I know of no exceptions
14:45:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> + you can get pink for the inbox listing too in pine I guess
14:45:56 * ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
14:46:31 <ais523> both konsole and gnome-terminal could handle it easily
14:46:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well I'm glad he isn't because he wouldn't just watch, he would take active part
14:46:37 <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:47:02 <ais523> if your alternative is to insist that everyone who reads your email uses a terminal emulator just so they can override the background of your email to pink
14:47:06 <ais523> then you are missing the point
14:48:15 <fizzie> ais523: Finnish as all those suffixes instead of prepositions, and a lot of them start with 's'; OTOH, for abbreviations a common style is to use : before the suffix. So "in C++" would be translated as "C++:ssa", and MSN would convert that to "C++[silly smiley]sa".
14:48:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:49:00 <ais523> I assume that most MSN Messenger users aren't Finnish
14:49:09 <ais523> just based on statistics
14:49:13 <ais523> probably most are American
14:49:44 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "a lot of them" start with s, but both the "-ssa" and "-sta" suffixes (which correspond to "in" and "from" prepositions, roughly) do, and those are rather common.
14:50:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, can't you turn that off in your msn client?
14:51:56 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I have trouble just trying to close MSN when someone else has left it running
14:52:09 <ais523> it is a very hard program to use correctly, the user interface is seriously unintuitive
14:52:12 <fizzie> I suspect the smileys are configurable. I do MSN with Bitlbee in an IRC client, anyway.
14:52:25 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: in a cybercafe?
14:52:38 <ais523> worrying enough that the session didn't end when the person before me ran out of time
14:53:31 <ais523> more worrying still that control-alt-delete actually worked there and you could kill the thing that logged you off with it
14:53:38 <ais523> but I didn't do that as it probably would have been theft
14:53:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm, irritating when music have very quiet and very loud parts after each other. you have to constantly tune the volume to either be able to hear the music or not destroy your ears
14:54:46 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: apply some compression to it?
14:56:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I'm listening using a radio. Not a computer
14:56:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: compression as in the musical effect
14:56:35 <ais523> and probably most radios don't have it available
14:57:51 <asiekierka> And I minimized it to just use -35 to 35
14:57:54 <fizzie> One of the higher-end home theater -style systems could probably do it; at least it certainly could if they'd bothered to program that part in, since it's all done with DSP anyway.
14:58:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm wouldn't it also destroy the feeling of the music kind of
14:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> for something like Per Gynt (full opera) at least...
14:58:47 <fizzie> Tuning the volume around mid-piece is probably not any better than processing the signal otherwise, for the "intent" of the composer.
14:59:07 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any XML-based esolang? i'm designing one but i'd like to see how other XML-based one does.
15:00:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, they should limit the dynamic range, some sort of regulation is needed
15:03:48 <fizzie> Well, unless you have an excessively fancy radio, you'll probably have to run it through a computer or something if you want to do that at your end.
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15:08:43 <oklopol> i can't stand graphical smileys, it's not that they're big and yellow, that's okay, it's just it looks really weird when the face is ...upside-up
15:09:10 <asiekierka> A simple infinite loop in Anglent looks like a curve
15:10:15 <oklopol> maybe it's the yellow thing after all.
15:10:31 <oklopol> maybe it's the fact it's in a circle
15:10:54 <oklopol> can you do _ plus umlaut for me?
15:10:58 <fizzie> You only like people who do not have a physical head, just the face flying around.
15:11:38 <oklopol> if only i had any idea how to do it
15:11:51 <oklopol> how do people do unicode anyway?
15:12:18 <fizzie> oklopol: I just pick from the "gucharmap" application. That one was U+268D DIGRAM FOR LESSER YIN.
15:12:19 <oklopol> do you have like a 2d chart and an approximate knowledge of what's where
15:12:27 <ais523_> oklopol: I use the character map application on here
15:12:35 <ais523_> and approximate knowledge to find the character quickly
15:12:39 <fizzie> gucharmap and "view / by unicode block", that's usually enough.
15:12:46 <ais523_> some I have memorised, like é and →
15:13:01 <fizzie> Em-dash with combining diaeresis: —̈
15:13:37 <oklopol> é too, just ' plus e (' only shows the correct dottie when used with the e)
15:14:00 <oklopol> fizzie: omg that's cute :>
15:14:16 <fizzie> There's a dead key in the default fi layout which adds ´ and ` to letters.
15:14:34 <oklopol> diaeresis sounds like a plural of diarrhea
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15:14:43 <ehird> 13:45 ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
15:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6 suffers from "I don't like this feature, why isn't everyone an übergeek like me"-itis
15:15:20 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
15:15:29 <oklopol> the third eye is not on the face here
15:15:50 <oklopol> that's a colon + a third dot almost on the line above
15:15:58 <fizzie> It's probably not been optimized for smiley usage; it was just the vertical ellipsis in mathematical operators.
15:16:09 <oklopol> well. noodle time i thinks
15:16:28 <ehird> is it bad that I like xslt sort of
15:16:41 <fizzie> oklopol: is ⁖) better?
15:16:59 <fizzie> And yes, there's both ⋰ and ⋱
15:19:06 <ais523> <comment on a news article? "hello sir , i was read your whole article that's good . there are kindly request by me plz give me the whole details in my email id.sothat i read it very well way"
15:19:18 <ais523> that makes no sense either as a spambot or as a please send me the codes
15:19:21 <ais523> what's going on there?
15:20:25 <asiekierka> *ahem* Yep, centrainly Chingrish or a Chinese spambot
15:21:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> fizzie: Eyes are not so fat! <asiekierka> or big <-- ... never heard that story
15:21:43 <asiekierka> I'm going to work on many "graph" languages which can be interpreted by human
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15:38:33 <asiekierka> I made AngF too, BF which looks like Anglent code
15:41:46 <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now.
15:42:06 <asiekierka> lifthrasiir: You can't get more stupid than AngF
15:42:43 <asiekierka> WELL, AngF can also be human-interpreted
15:44:11 <ais523> IRP is still going to be the best human-interpreted esolang around
15:45:23 <asiekierka> But Anglent can be BOTH human-interpreted AND computer-interpreted
15:45:37 <asiekierka> And possibly electromechanical-interpreted
15:47:01 <oklopol> anything that can be computer-interpreted can be human-interpreted
15:47:42 <asiekierka> Except Malbolge, because every human will give an error OR destroy his brain before finishing "Cat"
15:47:59 <asiekierka> And my esolang is specifically crafted to be human-interpreted
15:48:09 <oklopol> well what do you mean by that?
15:48:18 <oklopol> that when done on paper you don't need to erase much?
15:49:03 <asiekierka> As in, you move a black strip of paper attached to the board via cuts, there are 5 of these, each for a variable
15:49:13 <asiekierka> and output is done by writing it on a sheet of paper
15:49:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now. <-- how do you compute in it?
15:49:57 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: i'm writing "Command semantics" section now
15:50:41 <asiekierka> Ok, how can you have a 13.923568-bit-long integer
15:51:12 <ehird> yesssss, I perfected linux font rendering
15:51:19 <ehird> and I thought it couldn't be done!
15:51:33 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: 1114111 + 1 becomes 0. So that's mod-1114112 integer with strange description.
15:51:49 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: well, it probably won't suit your tastes: it optimizes for typographical clarity over thinness, and also for high-DPI lcds
15:52:31 <ehird> Enable subpixel rendering. Disable autohinting. Use "Slight" hinting. Make a fontconfig block that conditions on font size >16 (uh, I'm not sure if it's points or pixels... Over 16 pixels, anyway) to set hinting to full
15:52:51 <ehird> == no blue/red edges on large fonts, but text fonts keep their full body
15:53:09 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Well, uh, what's the point of Wheel then?
15:53:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Disable autohinting. <-- I mentioned that before already...
15:53:16 <ehird> It cannot contain any entities. (%foo; etc.)
15:53:19 <ehird> lifthrasiir: &foo;
15:53:44 <asiekierka> Whirl, the one where you have 2 wheels you rotate
15:54:00 <lifthrasiir> ehird: it will only permit one of < > & " { ઼, since DOCTYPE is not permitted
15:54:08 <ehird> lifthrasiir: its' not %foo
15:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yeah -- with full hinting on everything, fonts all look pretty much the same and letters are very thin and undefined (esp. with subpixel)
15:54:33 <ehird> but with slight larger fonts get artifacts
15:54:41 <asiekierka> It uses 2 rings and it can also be easily human-interpreted
15:55:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, also I didn't say there was anything wrong with human interpretation. But rather I was wondering why you seemed so fixated on them..
15:55:06 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: He's trying to tell you that your spec says "any entities (%foo; etc.)" which is not right.
15:55:20 <fizzie> Since %foo; is not an entity.
15:55:29 <ehird> fizzie: I appoint you my translator.
15:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Sure, sec
15:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> nasm -w-orphan-labels -D__UNIXSDL__ -f elf -DELF -D__OPENGL__ -O99999999 -D__RELEASE__ -o video/makev16b.o video/makev16b.asm
15:56:36 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Cuz it's fun to make something that can be interpreted by human without pain
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15:57:19 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Hi from linux (so I can copypaste)
15:57:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, a bf-to-C compiler isn't too hard for example
15:57:26 <lifthrasiir> ehird: hmm, what is %foo; called then? i got confused while reading XML spec.
15:57:35 <mib_ueqe1k> lifthrasiir: %foo; is just plaintext in xml.
15:57:45 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I just don't want to make an interpreter
15:58:01 <asiekierka> And I may even write a printing app too
15:58:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, AnMaster doesn't highlight me atm, only this nick does. So what is wrong with tab completion?
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Okay, here's how to set it up: Open $desktop_environment's font configuration panel, enable subpixel rendering, set hinting to Slight. Then, in ~/.fonts.conf or whathaveyou:
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="font"> <test name="pixelsize" compare="more"> <double>16</double> </test> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> <const>hintslight</const> </edit>
15:58:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Oh, didn't know about that
15:58:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Can you not set up highlighting so that AnMaster highlights as well?
15:59:12 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Note of course that any new font rendering settings take getting used to
15:59:12 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It sort of makes sense for nasm, as there the n in "-On" (when n>1) is the limit for the number of optimization passes to do (when making branch-offset-type instructions use less bytes), so if you want to specify "do it as many times as necessary", you need a ridiculous number.
15:59:27 <asiekierka> I'm wondering what other "draw" Esolang will I make
15:59:39 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Would you like a screenshot?
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16:00:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, since my screen is low dpi I couldn't use the same anyway
16:00:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Helps people that don't tab-complete to get to you, or people who just mention your nick in the middle of a sentence (which often implies lack of tab completion)
16:00:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, but that paste above was messy with no newlines
16:00:42 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: also, what dpi's your screen?
16:01:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> I can (and do) tab complete in the middle Deewiant. What sort of client is missing that?
16:01:14 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what easy-to-human-interpret esolangs are there?
16:01:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I didn't say that clients don't support it, just that people don't always do it
16:01:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, and how do I calculate DPI now again..
16:01:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: IME people are much more likely to tab complete when addressing than anywhere else
16:01:56 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "xdpyinfo | grep resolution"
16:02:08 <fizzie> Assuming your X knows the correct DPI.
16:02:44 <fizzie> A measuring tape can also help.
16:03:30 <fizzie> xdpyinfo reports "94x94 dots per inch" here; I'm not sure how well it handles this "two monitors, not exactly identical DPI" case.
16:03:37 <mib_ueqe1k> I find this 1680x1050 monitor smothering.
16:03:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:03:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> screen on diagonal is more than my 50 cm ruler anyway
16:04:06 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Hi. I solved linux font rendering, by the way.
16:04:17 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm going to be rich. And famous. Rich and famous.
16:04:20 <fizzie> You want either X or Y, so that you can divide it with that number of pixels.
16:05:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, no measure tape around here anyway that I can find
16:05:16 <fizzie> 87.44262295081967213116 dpi in the Y side, 87.15686274509803921570 in X.
16:05:17 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: your monitor box has something on it about dpi, probably
16:05:39 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: what's your solution?
16:05:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, monitor box? You think I store the original box it came in?
16:05:50 <ais523> also, this keyboard at the university on the computer next to me is crazy
16:06:05 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: subpixel + no autohinting + a fontconfig that conditions: pixelsize<=16 = slight hinting, >16 = full hinting
16:06:11 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm uploading a screenshot as-we-speaketh to show andreou .
16:06:29 <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular.
16:06:30 <mib_ueqe1k> It is optimized for high-dpi LCDs, like I said.
16:06:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, anyway what would you recommend for this res then?
16:06:42 <ais523> it has three modifier keys in the bottom-left: one marked Ctrl, one marked with the Windows logo, Alt, and Option (all on the same key), and one marked with Alt, the Apple logo, and that weird loopy thing that you see on Apple keyboards sometimes
16:06:52 <ais523> yes, that means two keys are marked alt
16:07:05 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Ehm, anything's going to look ugly on that IMO, but my settings might work ok if you could get over your allergy of subpixel rendering
16:07:21 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Windows logo on an Apple keyboard?
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16:07:29 <mib_ueqe1k> Also, that's the place of interest sign, aka the command-key.
16:07:29 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: it isn't an apple keyboard I don't think
16:07:37 <ais523> I don't think it's a windows keyboard either
16:07:44 <fizzie> ais523: It's probably trying to be some sort of "works for both windows and OS X" keyboard, with dubious results.
16:07:53 <ais523> fizzie: that's my guess too
16:08:08 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I'll uploaderate this screenshot anyway, so you can imagine you have a high-dpi display and imagine drooling.
16:08:20 <ais523> still, even on OSX, would you have command and apple on the same key/
16:08:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular. <--- ?
16:08:38 <asiekierka> Anyway, i'm going to work on something else
16:09:05 <ais523> it's very confusing, anyway
16:09:14 <ais523> to start with I assumed they'd multiplexed alt and start
16:09:17 <ais523> so that tapping alt opened the start menu
16:09:22 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Tux isn't very ... logo.
16:09:59 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I have one 1280x1024 TFT in a 90-degree angle (so it's actually 1024x1280), and another 1920x1200 TFT the right way around, so the xdpyinfo dimensions reports the bounding box, even though there's a 1920x80 pixels of unusable area at the lower-left corner.
16:10:04 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: added "command semantics" section now.
16:10:35 <fizzie> Also I have no idea how it calculated the physical size and DPI since they differ.
16:11:01 <fizzie> It probably is separate, also, but there's some sort of combined value for non-multi-screen-aware apps.
16:11:13 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: no <input type=file>s are working
16:12:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, I don't have that no, but couldn't you scp it to the host?
16:12:36 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an Esolang that uses only 2 shapes
16:12:39 <mib_ueqe1k> i could just use this "Shared Folders" thingy-bob-ma.
16:14:18 <mib_ueqe1k> great, i have to install this proprietary shitware to get the shared folders working
16:14:44 <mib_ueqe1k> OS type: Xorg version: -------- ------------ Unbuntu 7.04 7.2.0 Ubuntu 6.10 7.1.1 Ubuntu 6.06 7.0.0
16:14:49 <ais523> messing around with virtualisation has taught me one interesting fact
16:14:50 <mib_ueqe1k> fucking up to date support you got ther
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16:15:10 <ais523> which is that mounting a drive simultaneously from two operating systems tends not to work
16:15:40 <ais523> that's a pity, it ought to, it's certainly an expressible operation with obvious semantics
16:15:45 <ais523> just the OSes seem unable to handle it
16:15:53 <ais523> (I tried with Knoppix + Ubuntu, last time)
16:16:05 <mib_ueqe1k> well, they'd start fucking each other's files
16:16:27 <mib_ueqe1k> grrrr, I can't figure out how to get this out of the box
16:17:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: I don't know
16:17:23 <ais523> I always acessed it via domain name
16:17:49 <mib_ueqe1k> since bogons needs you to have a reverse dns for a static ip
16:17:55 <ais523> why do virtualisers care about which OS you're virtualising?
16:18:08 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: so they can integrate to let you move stuff out of the box
16:18:57 <ais523> I like the low-tech qemu method, but unfortunately simultaneous mounts would make it so much better
16:20:04 <fizzie> Some of those cluster-use-designed file systems support multiple mounting, I think.
16:20:37 <fizzie> (So you can use them with something like the network-block-device, instead of using a NFS server.)
16:20:45 <fizzie> I don't think I usually associate NFS and simple together.
16:21:16 <fizzie> Although it's certainly a solution; most of the stuff at work and at the university works over NFS.
16:21:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> took about 5-10 minutes of reading up on it and then about 5 more minutes to set it up
16:21:49 <fizzie> Have you tried to use it with systems that have very different UID numberings?
16:22:37 <mib_ueqe1k> Screenshot.png 100% 728KB 727.9KB/s 00:00
16:22:57 <fizzie> It's certainly far from simple internally, even if package-maintainers or such have made it simple.
16:23:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> take a screenshot from OS X of the screenshot in the vm?
16:25:30 <fizzie> Speaking of network file systems, someone has managed to configure Samba on this NAS appliance box in a really strange way:
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 077
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > foo
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 0
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > bar
16:25:33 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ ls -l
16:25:37 <fizzie> -rwxrwxrwx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 bar
16:25:39 <fizzie> -rwx-wx-wx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 foo
16:25:47 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: It would work but I'd have to crop it all after and fffffffffff.
16:26:02 <fizzie> There's a "force create mode = 777" (presumably to avoid any permission-related issues) but for some reason it fails to force the 'read' bits there.
16:27:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, well why would ftp work any better? Not that I have any ftp
16:27:50 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I just wnt to know what the fuck is up.
16:28:00 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: You should've seen how it worked when I mounted with "-o nounix". I can't even describe it, it was that strange. (Making food now, semi-away.)
16:28:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, indeed it makes no sense since your current connection works
16:28:14 <ais523> fizzie: what does -o nounix do?
16:28:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, maybe you hit a bit pattern that cause a bug in the virtual ethernet card or something?
16:29:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's a quasi-documented flag for mount.cifs not to negotiate the CIFS unix extensions with the remote server.
16:29:48 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: use shar, it's like uuencode only more high-tech
16:29:48 <fizzie> It's not in the man page, but it's documented somewhere elsewhere.
16:30:59 <ais523> shar is a wrapper around uuencode
16:31:03 <mib_ueqe1k> /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:82: Murrine configuration option "highlight_ratio" will be deprecated in future releases. Please use "highlight_shade" instead.
16:31:05 <ais523> with fun stuff like creating directories
16:31:18 <mib_ueqe1k> I get 3 of those errors every time something gtky happens
16:32:51 <mib_ueqe1k> elliott@elliott-desktop:~/Desktop$ scp Screenshot.png.uuencode ehird@208.78.103.223: ehird@208.78.103.223's password: Screenshot.png.uuencode 100% 1003KB 1.0MB/s 00:00
16:33:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: your password's "Screenshot.png.uuencode"?
16:34:11 <ehird> Pasting 1MB of uuencode into a text field in a browser is EL DUMBO
16:34:30 <ais523> why didn't you just use imagebin.ca or somewhere like that?
16:34:39 <ehird> ais523: I told you -- just like scp, they hang
16:34:50 <ehird> so I uuencoded it --still hanged--
16:34:54 <ais523> does the same happen for small files?
16:34:59 <ehird> so now I'm pastie.org'ing the uuencoded, looking it up on my mac, uudecoding it
16:35:03 <ehird> and uploading it to imgur.com
16:35:07 <ehird> ais523: It's only 700kb
16:35:15 <ais523> yes, but I mean smaller still
16:35:20 <ais523> can you send a few bytes of binary, for instance?
16:35:43 <ehird> Almost certainly; I can load http pages.
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16:37:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, for example I had a problem some time ago with a bug in kernel ethernet drivers that made ssh and such work fine but caused massive rsync to hang
16:38:15 <ehird> This is fuckin' ridiculous. I'ma try the proprietary parallels crap
16:38:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually it wasn't ethernet driver, it was somewhere else in the stack
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16:45:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would be slow anyway, but have interesting properties
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16:46:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> for example you could SELECT to find next non-whitespace
16:46:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> allowing slowdown.b98 to be reasonably fast without tracking bounds
16:47:24 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I thought you meant SELECT the operator from INTERCAL
16:47:27 <ais523> it might be interesting, though
16:48:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, efunge has some crazy code to get a block from funge space somewhat like that..
16:49:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I have thought about ATHR (that was put on hold due to implementation issues)
16:50:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> to be "optimistic non-synced funge space" or something like that
16:50:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would make it more esoteric (becuase it would be a nightmare to program in)
16:51:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> basically, if ATHR wasn't loaded everything would be normal, but when you start an ATHR thread the way they interact change
16:52:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> and only one thread can own a specific funge space block at a time
16:55:20 * ehird tries to optimize jvm startup tim
16:55:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> it gets interesting when you change the semantics by marking a block as non-synced or something, each thread could modify it's local copy and what would happen when they were flushed back to funge space server would be interesting
16:56:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> and anyway, no changes would be visible right away
16:56:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> (but trying to access in that block would make it flush back usually, somewhat like cache lines)
16:57:32 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: sorry, I'm busy with something else, I haven't been paying attention
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17:03:08 <lifthrasiir> writing XUMUL spec is getting harder, should i specify how to parse invalid XML? :S
17:05:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: no such thing
17:05:35 <ehird> the XML spec does not allow agents to process invalid xml
17:05:38 <ehird> if you do, you're breaking the spc
17:05:44 <ehird> (and also being sane, but xml isn't)
17:06:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, what about xml validators? they parse broken xml. But maybe they aren't agents. Or maybe the spec guys didn't know because they were _secret_ agents...
17:07:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: an xml validator is not an xml-processing UA
17:07:24 <ehird> also, validators report the first parsing error they see then give up
17:07:31 <ehird> thus, they comply with the spec
17:08:15 <ehird> http://www.lyx.org/images/about/insert_menu.png ← WOW those window decorations are ugly
17:08:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> not all validators do. Some try to list more than one error
17:08:26 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no, that's only post-parsing
17:08:32 <lifthrasiir> ehird: initial document should be valid, but in XUMUL the document is modified in-place and if we don't allow broken XML at least for a while it become uninteresting
17:08:42 <ehird> lifthrasiir: then it isn't xml
17:08:44 <ehird> so don't call it xml
17:08:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, ah when validating against DTD or such you mean?
17:10:02 <lifthrasiir> ehird: if i call such internal document processed by the program is "similar to XML but possibly invalid", are you right?
17:10:21 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what you have isn't an xml language, if it deals with invalidity
17:10:28 <ehird> it's a string-processing-language-that-starts-off-as-xml
17:10:59 <ehird> lifthrasiir: also, http://www.xsharp.org/
17:11:28 <fizzie> If you want to make it all-so-very-XML but allow self-modification, you might make the self-modification use a DOM-style API.
17:11:40 <ehird> they removed the freaky xml syntax
17:14:22 <ehird> http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/background.html ← ahh, this is exactly what i want
17:14:43 <ehird> last release 2005 >_<
17:14:59 <Ilari> Didn't XML spec allow parsers to attempt to continue parsing after first error trying to discover additional errors (but the parse has still failed)?
17:15:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, tell me when you read that bit above though
17:15:19 <ehird> they are forbidden from sending any more non-error data
17:15:25 <ehird> no thanks to tim bray
17:15:26 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably not for a while, or ever, tell me when I'm less busy
17:15:33 <lifthrasiir> okay, i agree to you ehird. i should look for another method so it can modify its own source and still remains valid.
17:15:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: base something on the DOM ap
17:15:49 <ehird> except... less, you know, Java
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17:35:13 <ehird> Interface to Apple's QuickTime for using a camera, playing movie files, and creating movies.]]
17:35:22 <ehird> Aw c'mon, you don't have to depend on QuickTime for that.
17:45:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, apple wouldn't be happy if they heard you say that
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18:00:44 <ehird> Wow. I managed to make DejaVu Serif look non-ugly.
18:00:48 <ehird> Thought I'd see the day, never/
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18:09:20 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul okay, how about this?
18:09:37 <ehird> * It cannot contain any comments or CDATA sections. Just use normal text for it, since they will be ignored.
18:09:44 <ehird> * It doesn't use XML namespaces. foo:bar is just a normal identifier, not to mention xml:lang, xmlns:foo and so on.
18:09:48 <ehird> * It should be coded in ASCII-compatible encodings. This excludes, for example, UTF-16 encodings.
18:09:59 <ehird> right, but the point is that it's not xml
18:10:40 <ehird> A cell past the first cell, at offset -1, maps to 20th-to-the-infinity character. This means it doesn't actually map to any character in the original XML document, but if it is assigned, it is treated as like in the last character in XML document. For example, suppose that current document consists of <foo/>. If offset -1 is set to X, current document becomes <foo/> X, where the whitespace is actually infinitely long but treated as one whitespace. Simila
18:10:43 <ehird> rly if offset -2 is set to Y, current document becomes <foo/> Y X. This remains same to other out-of-bound offset, e.g. offset 10 for 199-character-long document, so if offset 0 is set to Z, current document becomes <foo/> Z Y X.
18:10:48 <ehird> Being able to set arbitrary text allows for non-xml
18:11:21 <lifthrasiir> Oops, that IS right. I probably change the rule.
18:13:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, do you know if Intel CPUs have different instruction dispatch units for SSE and x87?
18:13:57 <ehird> as in i don't know
18:14:00 <lifthrasiir> well, i thought that if the original document is <f/> and the program changes it to <f> < / f > it is correct, but i realized < and / cannot be separated.
18:14:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, becuase if they do, using long double for about half of the math you do and double for the rest, and -mfpmath=sse,387 might in effect double the throughput I think
18:16:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, I'd go the other way instead. Allowing full SGML, not a subset of xml
18:16:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> that way you can have short tags and other fun stuff
18:18:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: good idea! but sgmllib in python standard library is removed in python 3... :p
18:19:53 <lifthrasiir> (and sgml is quite hard to parse correctly iirc)
18:21:58 <lifthrasiir> oh, i found http://www.jclark.com/sp/. looks fine except that it's written in C++ :p (just kidding!)
18:23:23 <lifthrasiir> well, but anyway i have to modify the existing parser or write new parser from scratch since it have to manage character offset of callers
18:24:23 <lifthrasiir> that's one reason for using a subset of XML
18:26:09 <fizzie> If you just need to know where you are, you can always use expat and the CurrentByteIndex property. It might get a bit tricky with self-modification, though.
18:27:08 <fizzie> Personally I'd write an XML language so that the interpretation part would also be defined in terms of the DOM, as would the tree-modification. But whatever floats your XML-boat, I guess.
18:28:22 <ehird> shared folders works
18:28:26 <ehird> screenshot time vsoon
18:28:56 <ehird> xml operating on strings is stupid
18:29:00 <ehird> and xml operating on xml is, uh, xslt :P
18:29:10 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: i was adding all the strange things for keeping the name (XUMUL) but anyway thanks.
18:29:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, i was the doing the other the stuff
18:29:45 <lifthrasiir> i dislike xslt, and dislike xml operating on xml generally
18:29:50 <ehird> I'm the talking like the fizzie.
18:30:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> The Other... The Stuff! Soon at a lame tagline generator near you
18:30:08 <fizzie> ehird: XSLT doesn't really operate on the XSLT style-sheet itself, but maybe that's such a small difference.
18:30:19 <ehird> fizzie: you could make it
18:31:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://imgur.com/FLORQ.png. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:32:01 <ehird> It resized it down.
18:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no.
18:32:35 <ehird> your internet is broken.
18:32:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I said
18:32:52 <ehird> so you can't see it properly
18:32:54 <ehird> so i'm rehosting it
18:33:13 <ehird> which, while having a shitty design, isn't designed as a shock-site hoster.
18:34:16 <ehird> Meh, it's broken now
18:35:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://omploader.org/vMWhnNw. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:35:42 <ehird> Like everyone else apart from fizzie's upside down monitor.
18:36:10 <fizzie> I think the Nintendo DS Lite screen is BGR, but I could be remembering wrongly.
18:36:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I found BGR to be least bad when it comes to colour bleeding on this monitor...
18:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Have you looked at your subpixels?
18:36:46 <ehird> If they're not BGR, using BGR is efeating the point.
18:36:52 <ehird> Since it's not subpixel any more.
18:37:13 <ehird> You have to use the pixel order of your monitor.
18:37:17 <ehird> That's the whole point.
18:37:21 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: get a magnifying glass
18:37:39 <ehird> Anyway, your monitor is RGB.
18:37:42 <ehird> Nobody manufactures anything else.
18:37:55 <ehird> Apart from nintendo based on fizzie-rumours.
18:38:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, tried with magnifying glass, still can't see the sub pixels
18:38:37 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: The only leakage in my screenshot is: the Avant Window Navigator body text, the Fishbowl monospaced tagline, and ever so slightly on the fishbowl body text
18:40:14 <fizzie> The fishbowl text is something I did notice to be a bit bluey-red-y. I'm not sure how much it would annoy.
18:40:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Either your eyes are so good that you could be making a lot of money just using them now, or you're sitting an inch away from your screen, or your monitor is one of the 3 non-RGB subpixel orders in the world, or it's a CRT.
18:41:03 <fizzie> It's rather horrible in the sideways-up monitor, though.
18:41:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually as far as I can make out, sub pixels are BRG here, or possible RBG
18:41:18 <ehird> That doesn't exist.
18:41:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Are you sure you don't have a CRT.
18:41:58 <ehird> fizzie: IMO, the avant one is much worse than fishbowl
18:42:03 <ehird> and I browsed for a while and it wasn't too botherating
18:42:16 <ehird> fizzie: If you want to make it use the full hinting to fixerate that some more, you can ++ the font size above 16px
18:42:41 <ehird> You're just a hallucinating kind of person then
18:43:02 <fizzie> The subpixel order should be rather easy to see if you do (in Gimp in 800%-zoom or something) a file which has a single-pixel vertical line of alternating blue and red pixels, and then look at it at native size, with the magnifying glass or otherwise.
18:43:18 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: If you don't have subpixels of course you see bleeding.
18:43:22 <fizzie> At least here it's very easy to see which pixels (red or blue) are on the left side and which on the right.
18:43:27 <ehird> But really I don't think so.
18:43:35 <ehird> It's probably your monitor's DPI being awfully low.
18:43:50 <ehird> Here's a nickel; go buy a decent monitor.
18:44:18 * ehird explodes with laughter
18:44:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(United_States_coin)
18:44:54 <ehird> Do you know _anything_ about non-Swedish things?
18:47:12 <ehird> lifthrasiir: I explode literally quite often
18:47:15 <ehird> there's a little me inside of me
18:47:24 <ehird> and it grows to be the size of me when I explode leaving only the little m
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18:47:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, not my fault they use funny names when they mean "5 cent coin"
18:47:33 <ehird> you may see this as a metaphor for man babies
18:47:46 <fizzie> I assume you have that TFT plugged in with a DVI cable, though? How much would the analog-blur-effect affect that sort of stuff, anyway?
18:47:59 <oklopol> i misunderstood ehird too, for a sec, thought nickel was slang for "tip"
18:48:07 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: geez
18:48:12 <oklopol> then i realized maybe you just meant nickel
18:48:17 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you're detuned from reality in a funny way, I mean it's oklopolific
18:48:44 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: you still do?
18:48:46 <ais523> isn't nickel the material they're mostly made of?
18:49:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, also I have tested this monitor with both dvi and vga cables before (on a different computer. Saw no difference
18:49:39 <fizzie> "75 % Copper, 25 % Nickel" says the linked page.
18:49:54 <fizzie> Well, except the nickel-free nickels of ww2.
19:07:01 <Ilari> AFAIK, one of the most signaficant sources of analog blurring is the video card.
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19:10:42 <Ilari> Also, isn't there both Analog DVI and Digital DVI (some systems might support both)?
19:14:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so what did you think about the idea for fungespace coherency?
19:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: very busy atm, I'll talk to you later
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19:37:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw efunge should be run on R12B-5 to be mycology compatible, I believe (from changelog reading) it will break in 0-byte handling under R13A (that is an alpha version), and for now I'll just say R13 isn't supported until I have time to test R13 and fix any bugs there.
19:38:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
19:39:25 <Deewiant> So you just have to know what the major version numbers mean? :-P
19:40:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, you know because the tarball you downloaded was called otp_src_R12B-5.tar.gz or such
19:40:19 <Deewiant> No I don't because I didn't download a tarball
19:40:29 <Deewiant> I have programs which do these things for me
19:40:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ok I think it is the version of the application kernel that matters (erlang application)
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19:42:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway in R13 all console IO will be UTF-8, previously it was all ISO-latin-1.
19:42:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, and there is no way around it. Erlang is semi-closed-world style.
19:43:23 <Deewiant> Sure there is, you can decode/encode UTF
19:44:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, no, because R13's console IO code will throw exceptions on non-UTF it seems
19:44:38 <Deewiant> Yees, but if you want to output non-UTF you just encode it into UTF first
19:46:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway erlang's console IO will output most non-printable as ^@ or whatever when running in interactive mode. This is a feature (again can't be turned off).
19:46:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh and interactive mode is one valid way to start efunge in
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19:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: and you whine about closed world systems
19:50:23 <ehird> at least fully closed systems let you do things flexibly from inside
19:50:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, but now that I started I have to bite the bullet :P
19:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> "ASCII English text, with CRLF, CR, LF line terminators"
19:53:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> I thought the file was in LF and wanted to convert to CR
19:55:41 <Deewiant> I'm amused by the fact that efunge of all interpreters doesn't support t
19:56:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> $ ./efunge ~/src/cfunge/trunk/tests/refc-invalid-deref.b98
19:57:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway I just pushed a fix in efunge for form feed handling
19:58:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway the threading in erlang is async and message passing
19:58:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I feel supporting t would be wrong in it
19:59:01 <Deewiant> How is it more wrong than supporting any other feature of Befunge-98
19:59:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, because it doesn't allow me to take advantage of the message passing concurrency in erlang
19:59:30 <ehird> Deewiant: quick, make pervasive use of t in mycology
19:59:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: And my point was, neither does the rest of Befunge :-P
20:00:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ATHR will be better. I guess I can have a lock step compat mode that sends a token around to support t
20:01:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and remember, efunge isn't about speed, as long as I don't have to wait too long I'm happy with efunge
20:01:21 <Deewiant> efunge seems decently fast to me
20:01:32 <Deewiant> Takes a while to shutdown but I guess that can't be helped
20:01:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, indeed it can't, it is because erlang need to stop internal processes
20:01:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> well you could bypass it, but then I couldn't send back exit code either afaik
20:02:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm efunge trunk locks up on jumpwrap.b98 for some reason, will have to debug that
20:03:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: efunge is way faster than pyfunge FWIW
20:03:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well it is decent if you use ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make clean all
20:03:34 <Deewiant> Over twice as fast including the shutdown time
20:03:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it is horribly slow without using native/hipe
20:04:08 * Deewiant checks what AnMaster_ipv6 thinks is 'horribly slow'
20:04:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I don't like waiting 30 seconds for mycology
20:04:51 <Deewiant> I see almost no speed difference, did I muck something up
20:05:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok, supervisor-tree is known buggier, a feature branch for ATHR work
20:05:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, if there is spurious output at start/end (or in middle) in that branch I will just point you to trunk for now
20:06:47 <Deewiant> Speed difference is around 0.1s
20:06:59 <Deewiant> Dominated by the 1+s it takes to shutdown
20:07:05 <Deewiant> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [smp:4] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
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20:08:03 <Deewiant> Hmm, pyfunge doesn't have a way of disabling fingerprints so it's not fairly benchmarkable
20:08:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, here it is 2 seconds vs. 7 seconds (trunk) and 3 seconds vs. 14 seconds in the supervisor branch
20:08:15 <Deewiant> But then efunge doesn't either
20:08:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Both around 1.5s here in supervisor
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20:08:35 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I tried that, it crashes :-P
20:08:42 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: ImportError: No module named fp_
20:08:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well supervisor branch can make use of smp
20:08:58 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I also tried just specifying 'standard' but it didn't seem to change anything
20:09:00 <lifthrasiir> hmm i didn't check for null argument... well.
20:09:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> and the message passing overhead may make it slower
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20:09:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: 'Edit source' isn't an option
20:09:32 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: it will disable other fingerprints (e.g. STRN) except for standard one. you mean it wasn't?
20:09:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well just comment out in the listing of fingerprints in src/efunge_fingerindex.erl
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20:09:59 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Still runs HRTI, TOYS etc
20:10:10 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Oh right, by standard you mean the Cat's Eye ones
20:10:20 <Deewiant> There's just no way of disabling them all
20:10:48 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I would've expected a per-fingerprint list and not a category list :-)
20:10:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, in efunge branch overhead is rather large, thus I won't add it, adding a option for tracing led to a 0.5 second slowdown or so when I tested
20:11:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: You don't need to branch at every instruction, it's just a check when you do ( or )
20:11:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> so for tracing, you should uncomment the relevant line and recompile
20:11:40 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i should have done so, but didn't do yet :p
20:12:09 <Deewiant> It's not like being easily benchmarkable is what Funge interpreters should aspire to...
20:15:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Why would it reflect
20:16:17 <Deewiant> Anyway, I guess the interpreters in current speed order are: cfunge, RC/Funge-98, CCBI, efunge, pyfunge, Language::Befunge
20:17:16 <Deewiant> Although I'm a bit hesitant to include RC/Funge-98 in that list since it still uses stuff like gets() :-P
20:17:23 <Deewiant> It's full of buffer overflow bugs
20:17:29 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i pushed the version contains --disable-fprint option, and it takes 1.7s for mycology with psyco enabled
20:17:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway I recommend efunge trunk atm for stability, the cool new stuff in the supervisor branch is so far only under the hood and it is buggy
20:18:12 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Around 1.7s for me too
20:19:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I fixed two bugs the last few minutes that have not been ported to the supervisor branch yet
20:19:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Their speed is about the same for me, 0.6s of CPU time and 1.6 in total
20:23:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw for make in efunge -j have absolutely no effect
20:28:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, about speed there above btw... Language::Befunge is slow?
20:30:16 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:31:16 <ais523> and this time, I'm not busy
20:31:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: By your standards, definitely. :-P
20:31:31 <ais523> although I've been awake for 28 hours straight, so may not be coherent
20:31:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, heh, well I was talking about funge space coherency protocol before
20:33:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> it might solve the issue I had with implementing ATHR, along with defining that bounds may not be exact (even for wrapping purposes, when other threads writes cause bounds to extend) if ATHR is loaded and a sync instruction have not been executed
20:33:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> it will always see it's own writes in a coherent way
20:33:44 <ais523> how could bounds be wrong for wrapping purposes?
20:33:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It takes 12s on Mycology here
20:33:59 <ais523> oh, if one thread writes to another's Lahey-line
20:34:07 <ais523> beyond where it would have bounced
20:34:07 <Deewiant> So yes, it's by far the slowest
20:34:10 <ais523> and yes I remember ATHR
20:34:15 <ais523> Deewiant: which implementation?
20:34:29 <Deewiant> ais523: Language::Befunge, the Perl one.
20:34:44 <ais523> ah, I've been meaning to mess with that
20:34:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, I know. :-P
20:34:53 <ais523> is it on cpan, or does it need to be downloaded from elsewhere?
20:35:12 * ais523 starts CPAN invocations
20:35:34 <ais523> $ sudo chown -R ais523:ais523 ~/.cpan
20:35:52 <ais523> $ cpan -i Language::Befunge
20:35:53 <Deewiant> What, you normally have it root:root? :-P
20:36:08 <ais523> Deewiant: no, bits keep on ending up root:root by accident anyway
20:36:27 <ais523> the chown is a bit of black magic for using cpan I developed, it seems to work
20:36:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I never install software outside home without using my distro's package manager..
20:36:55 <fizzie> ~/.cpan is not very outside home.
20:36:57 <ais523> oh, I don't install outside home or /usr/local without package manager
20:37:01 <ais523> but this is inside home
20:37:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> I don't use /usr/local, well on freebsd the package manager uses that
20:37:26 <ais523> besides, cpan is a package manager, just a confusing and buggy one
20:37:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> but on linux my /usr/local is just some empty directories
20:37:46 <ais523> on Debian-based systems, /usr is for the package manager, except /usr/local is guaranteed package-manager free
20:38:05 <ais523> so it's a good place to test things like my C-INTERCAL packaging
20:38:25 <fizzie> I have some systems-administrationary custom scripts in /usr/local/sbin/ it seems.
20:38:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well *bsd is: / and /usr are for base system /usr/local for ports collection (the package manager)
20:39:26 <ais523> $ perldoc Language::Befunge
20:39:37 <ais523> I had to switch to root and back though as it was trying to install man pages
20:39:44 <ais523> then I needed another chown to clear up
20:43:13 <ais523> "Can't locate UNIVERSAL/require.pm in @INC"
20:43:19 <ais523> I'm having CPAN problems, as usual
20:45:16 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you have to
20:45:20 <ehird> the alternatives are far worse
20:45:27 <ehird> i.e., either no perl libraries, or chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:31 <ehird> and yes, there are always that many dependencies
20:45:36 <ehird> perlists are promiscuous
20:45:42 <ais523> ehird: even with cpan, you have no perl libraries and are chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:55 <ehird> ais523: except you can get cpan to chase them for you
20:46:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> usually I just install the relevant part using my distro's package manager
20:46:23 <ais523> ehird: it usually gets about half
20:46:26 <ais523> which is an improvement, I suppose
20:46:38 <ehird> grr, one thing that irritates me about jvm conventions: the package convention is com.foo.app, so you _need_ a domain
20:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't own that domain.
20:47:22 <ehird> lifthrasiir: You must use a domain you own.
20:48:18 <lifthrasiir> what if java package name can contain URN or so? urn.uuid_6e8bc430_9c3a_11d9_9669_0800200c9a66?
20:49:15 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: of course, but i said "what if" :p
20:50:41 <fizzie> It's not a "need" since it is just a convention.
20:51:14 <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with.
20:51:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with. <-- wut?
20:52:05 <lifthrasiir> i mean that widespread convention becomes de facto standard by itself
20:53:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, what about relative question rates. That is relative % ending in question marks to all lines said by that person. Combine ehird and tusho btw
20:53:39 <fizzie> Admittedly the convention is documented in the Java Language Specification, so it's a rather strong convention.
20:53:47 <fizzie> "You form a unique package name by first having (or belonging to an organization that has) an Internet domain name, such as sun.com."
20:54:44 <ais523> yay, Language::Befunge is working
20:54:53 <ais523> I only had to chase up 7 or 8 of the dependencies by hand
20:55:02 <fizzie> I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
20:55:12 <ais523> cpan isn't really a package manager, although it acts like one
20:55:18 <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one
20:55:19 <Deewiant> ais523: Is your cpan broken or something?
20:55:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, since I talk so much I believe the numbers mentioned yesterday are not really relevant
20:55:44 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it tries to write outside my home dir and errors, then on the next run decides either the last one worked so it won't try again, or the last one didn't work so it won't try again
20:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
20:56:24 <Deewiant> Sounds like you have it configured somehow incorrectly
20:56:25 <ais523> hmm... which fingerprint is REFC?
20:56:41 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it makes it a bit hard to run Perl programs as a result
20:57:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, no: gentoo portage have lots of perl packages as gentoo packages that are properly install/uninstallable
20:57:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> the recommended way is to write gentoo packages for any missing
20:57:32 <ais523> Ubuntu package the bits of cpan they depend on, but I think they don't do it automatedly
20:57:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, called g-cpan before, but replaced with something else now
20:57:48 <ais523> talking about Perlists about the gentoo cpan thing, apparently it doesn't work in every case, or something
20:57:56 <ais523> but then, neither does cpan
20:58:19 <Deewiant> cpan's worked just fine for me on Linux
20:58:23 <Deewiant> Windows is another story, of course
20:58:52 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology test deep y as a pick instruction?
20:59:12 <ais523> I can't find the bit in the output where it reports on it
20:59:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus every file outside /home /etc /var /usr/portage /root and a few more places has to belong to a package in the distro package manager IMO
20:59:55 <ais523> it's nice to have a second /usr tree for testing things that shouldn't be interfered with by the manager
21:00:19 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what if you're writing a package manager yourself?
21:00:34 <ais523> or just an install/uninstall script designed to work in a /usr tree as well as in the home dir
21:01:02 <ais523> anyway, my jqbef98 seems to pass latest mycology
21:01:04 <Deewiant> ais523: chroot into $HOME/foo which contains usr?
21:01:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well the latter makes no sense, it is up to package manager to handle it, it should be trivial to write a package, if it isn't then the package manager is too hard to use.
21:01:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Hmm, where'd you get jqbef98, I just grabbed the example from the perldoc and used that
21:01:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> for gentoo I usually need a 5-10 lines long file, and 5 minutes of work.
21:01:53 <ais523> hmm... no wait, jqbef98 fails mycouser I think
21:02:01 <ais523> Deewiant: from cpan, it installed as part of the package
21:02:10 <Deewiant> ais523: Didn't for me. Oh well.
21:03:04 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Here is top-20 of question-%s for everyone who's spoken more than 1000 lines during 2006-2008. (Without the filtering there's quite an amount of 100%s.) → http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt
21:04:07 <fizzie> This time it was "contains a ? anywhere".
21:04:34 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Number 44, with 3.2 %.
21:04:53 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: He talks even more than you, after all.
21:05:15 <GregorR> "With Jergen's, who needs the sun?"
21:05:21 <GregorR> Sometimes commercials are immeasurably stupid.
21:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you're cheating, you're asking questions without a question mark at the end
21:06:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I started that recently<ascii code 63>
21:06:13 <ais523> actually, I often typo ? as /, so I'm cheating just as much
21:06:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: That wasn't a question.
21:07:10 <ais523> err... that has too many forward slashes
21:07:15 <ais523> shouldn't some of them be escaped?
21:08:07 <ais523> and in Thutu, it would be /^s/$/=\//
21:08:37 <SimonRC> ais523: how does the power of thutu compare to that of sed?
21:08:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;ais523, why did you think I didn't use sed;337**,@
21:08:52 <ais523> SimonRC: they're both turing-complete
21:09:27 <ais523> thutu needs to be wimpmoded to really be useful, although it's a relatively nice language, I should detarpit it and remove some of the insanities
21:09:36 <ais523> and I may end up with a language that's worth using
21:09:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Perl sets the standard for regular expressoins
21:10:01 <ais523> anyway, I'm going home now, bye everyone
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21:10:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> I didn't use pcre, I used s syntax, which means it is sed when it comes to me...
21:10:37 <Deewiant> "s syntax" is present in Perl.
21:21:53 <lifthrasiir> once perl added (?...) extension syntax to regexp, and perl 5.10 adds (*...) "verb". i wonder perl 5 will ever add (+...).
21:24:36 <lifthrasiir> < is for lookbehind, = is for positive and ! is for negative.
21:25:15 <lifthrasiir> i.e. do not backtrack into this parenthese
21:25:58 <lifthrasiir> once Larry Wall criticizes this as a bad huffman coding... :p
21:27:12 <lifthrasiir> well, perl 6 has a new regexp syntax which shortens such constructs which is used quite often but too long to type
21:27:47 <lifthrasiir> but i still think perl 6 showed new dimension of esoteric language... heh
21:30:54 <ehird> 20:56 AnMaster_ipv6: <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
21:30:59 <ehird> CPANPLUS has uninstall
21:31:07 <ehird> 20:55 fizzie: I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
21:31:11 <ehird> Log analysis framework? Count me in.
21:31:29 <ehird> I was hoping for some micro-optimization help.
21:31:40 <Deewiant> Wouldn't AnMaster be the one to ask? :-P
21:31:45 <ehird> also, 28% of sgeo is quetsions
21:31:54 <ehird> I predicted a large % all along
21:31:55 <ehird> since like last year
21:32:11 <ehird> Deewiant: no, ais523's microoptimizations give a better speed boost and are less obnoxiously _posix_fuseless
21:32:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Can cpanplus uninstall stuff cpan has installed?
21:33:13 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/04/03/sleep-may-prepare-you-for-tomorrow-by-dissolving-todays-neural-connections/ ← Humans need concurrent gc
21:33:39 <Deewiant> ehird: What are you micro-optimizing?
21:33:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I may still be able to help microoptimising
21:33:59 <ehird> Deewiant: I haven't written it yet, but it'll only be ~100 lines -- a tripcode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode) cracker
21:34:16 <ehird> there's a few but I have some microoptimization ideas & I want to take advantage of multi-core systems
21:34:42 <ehird> ("For example, 2channel translates <, >, and " to <, >, and "." ← I love perverse edge-case programming errors becoming defacto standards)
21:35:47 <ehird> Slereah_: Wat is greater than 2channel?
21:35:54 <Slereah_> Oh, it's a discussion about tripcode
21:36:08 <Slereah_> It seemed weird to see 2ch in that window
21:37:17 <Slereah_> Really, most of the time, you don't even need a tripcode cracker
21:37:26 <Slereah_> Most people use insecure tripcodes
21:37:45 <Slereah_> There's a list of all letter-based tripcodes
21:37:46 <ehird> Yes, well, it's a fun thing to optimize.
21:38:27 <Slereah_> Not to mention the very common tripcodes :o
21:38:38 <ehird> I wonder what the character set of crypt() output is
21:38:49 <ehird> I don't think it's all printable ascii chars, there's no space for instance
21:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, simple, use the SSE8 PWCJIS to convert to JIS to begin with
21:39:27 <Slereah_> It's probably something like ASCII from 33 to 126
21:39:39 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: SHIFT jis. And the article then goes on to say that 4chan doesn't do the shift-jis conversion, so it's probably not worth bothering.
21:40:01 <Deewiant> Hooray for de facto standards.
21:40:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, anyway SSE is so feature bloated in recent versions it wouldn't surprise me..
21:40:10 <Slereah_> If you want to learn about tripcodes, you can go to /soc/
21:40:19 <ehird> Slereah_: I used to frequent there ages ago
21:40:26 <ehird> Okay, so there's 48398230717929318249 unique tripcode outputs. I think.
21:40:48 <ehird> Now to figure out what -illion that is.
21:41:28 <Slereah_> 48.398.230.717.929.318.249 -> 48 quintillions
21:41:31 <Deewiant> 48 398 230 717 929 318 249 so... yeah
21:41:45 <Deewiant> Assuming you're US, of course.
21:41:58 <Deewiant> Or modern UK, or whatever crap.
21:42:21 <ehird> oklopol: it's the world wide system now
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21:42:28 <ehird> quintillions. lovely
21:42:51 <oklopol> ehird: so is english, and it's retarded too.
21:43:13 <Deewiant> According to Wikipedia, besides English-speaking countries only Brazil and Wales use the short scale
21:43:21 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder what the best way to utilize multiple cores is
21:43:29 <ehird> maybe start thread 1 at 0, thread 2 at (half of tripspace)
21:43:34 <Deewiant> And 9 others use the short scale + milliard
21:43:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: million
21:43:50 <oklopol> Deewiant: your facts are nicer than ehird'sa
21:43:56 <ehird> SimonRC: Crack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode s. Learnt to read :P
21:44:20 <ehird> Slereah_: Nobody says milliard.
21:44:28 <Deewiant> Million, milliard, billion, billiard, trillion, trilliard, etc.
21:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: You don't count as a person :|
21:44:40 <SimonRC> Deewiant: where are you from?
21:44:50 <Deewiant> oklopol: Sure, it goes all the way up.
21:45:24 <ehird> SimonRC: keyspace is 72057594037927936 actually
21:45:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, well vigintillion already sounds silly so meh...
21:45:35 <ehird> which is a fucktonion
21:46:52 <oklopol> unde- and duode- are used to get the ones before it, but i'm a bit fuzzy on the details, not having any idea where those come from.
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21:49:16 <oklopol> well yes the sensible scale, naturally
21:49:27 <oklopol> it was a question, where are the names from
21:50:58 <oklopol> YOU KNOW COULD'VE BEEN GREEK... OR JAPANESE
21:51:01 <ehird> "Take the second and third characters of the string obtained by appending H.. to the end of the input. "
21:51:05 <ehird> I love how meaningless this is.
21:51:07 <ehird> It's a clusterfuck
21:51:22 <Deewiant> oklopol: Except that it isn't. :-P
21:52:04 <Deewiant> E.g. decillion = 10^6^10 where the latter 10 is from Latin decem, 10.
21:52:21 <oklopol> well i don't know latin, so a bit hard to know; i guess i have to admit it was the only possible choice tho
21:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, the H.. is for handling very short strings I guess
21:52:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, but why 'H..'
21:52:45 <oklopol> i guessed from oktaavi -> nooni -> desimi
21:53:05 <oklopol> (octave, octave+1 -interval, octave+2 -interval)
21:53:24 <oklopol> also could've guessed from simply deci i guess
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21:55:26 <Deewiant> oklopol: I'd say the most obvious is that it's quadrillion and not tetrillion or something.
21:55:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=tripe
21:55:59 <ehird> It shouldn't have been called that because that's not funny.
21:56:00 <Slereah_> It is called $Bec0e&,ec&e%w(B :3
21:56:04 <oklopol> Deewiant: you mean it's obvious it is the former, or that based on that, latin is obvious?
21:56:17 <oklopol> i don't see why quadrillion is more obvious than tetrillion
21:56:20 <Deewiant> oklopol: Based on that, Latin is obvious.
21:56:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I tried to figure some sort of oerjan-class pun related to tripecode and the % character, but couldn't.
21:56:33 <oklopol> not to me, i don't know latin.
21:57:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: Greek tetra-, tetr-: the number four as a prefix
21:57:48 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Given that it's in a file, I couldn't really justify the "head -n 20" in q.txt, so http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt now has the complete list of everyone who's spoken >1000 lines in those logs.
21:58:07 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, four in Japanese is shi or yon.
21:58:18 <ehird> fizzie: YOU FORGOT TO MERGE ZUFF AND EHIRD
21:58:20 <ehird> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
21:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, for bsmnt you should count "..." as a qustion mark
21:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you too.
21:59:24 <fizzie> It's a bit crappy in other ways too. There's also oklopol/oklofok, curiously next to each other; very consistent question-percentage there.
21:59:34 <fizzie> Same goes for Pikhq/pikhq.
21:59:50 <ehird> clearly we need the Loggitude framework
22:00:16 <fizzie> I had somewhere a log-parsing script that combinated nicks based on hostmasks, nick similarity wrt. edit-distance, and some other random heuristics, but I seem to have lost it.
22:00:28 <Deewiant> So fungot /does/ ask questions.
22:00:28 <fungot> Deewiant: 18. some hard-boiled things can be cracked." he unfolded the paper as he spoke, ' is the fnord" ( making little marks on the ground as she spoke, and rested his head against her shoulder. " what size will you be?"
22:00:49 <fizzie> Hah, that's a question.
22:00:57 <oklopol> lament: you should put that on a t-shirt
22:01:19 <ehird> $ loggitude -e'map { my @lines = search(-from => $_); my @questions = filter { /?$/ } @lines; something to output percentage here } @users'
22:02:39 <ehird> anyway I'm writing it so fu
22:03:10 <ehird> sure, I just need to get my log-scraper done
22:03:21 <ehird> then anyone can analyze #esoteric logs with two invocations:
22:03:33 <ehird> $ perl download-esoteric-logs.pl
22:03:39 <ehird> $ perl loggitude.pl -e'...'
22:03:54 <ehird> (download-esoteric-logs.pl will update your logs if you already have some, btw, it only downloads what you need)
22:04:05 <ehird> (also rename to YYYY-MM-DD and changes times to UTC)
22:04:17 <ehird> (I have the renaming part done and some of the downloading)
22:05:52 <ehird> Separate scripts for separate tasks.
22:07:00 <fizzie> Yay, I have gotten recomputed 34/39ths of the Octave stuff I messed up last night.
22:07:29 <ehird> fizzie how come all you ever do is awesome computing processing stuff
22:07:35 <ehird> i'm a kid and I don't have that much fun :<
22:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to.
22:08:08 <ehird> Used to be git-foo.
22:08:13 <ehird> Anyway, all git operations are linked
22:08:22 <ehird> They all manipulate the same datastore in much the same ways
22:08:31 <ehird> But downloading logs vs processing logs are entirely separable tasks
22:08:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to. <-- used or use<q>
22:09:03 <fizzie> It's the reporting bias; I do not much advertise the times when I clean up the sewage input pipe in the bathroom, or other pleasant things like that.
22:09:03 <ehird> And if I required strict adherence to my philosophies I'd never use anything.
22:09:14 <ehird> fizzie: do it, so I can feel better about myself
22:09:41 <fizzie> Will try to remember to.
22:10:16 <ehird> Fuck the JVM. Fuck Parrot. I'm compiling all my VM-langs to Infocom's Z-machine in future: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine
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22:10:52 <fizzie> ZBefunge was probably the first Befunge interp I used, actually.
22:11:08 <ehird> zbefunge compiles befunge to z machine code?
22:11:20 <fizzie> No, it's just an interpreter written to work in a Z machine.
22:11:23 <Deewiant> No, it's a befunge interpreter written in Z-Machine code
22:11:31 <fizzie> Also Befunge-93 only and so on.
22:12:10 <fizzie> Seems that there's a ZedFunge which does Funge-98.
22:12:29 <ehird> Deewiant: New mycology contender :P
22:13:18 <fizzie> At least ZBefunge's debugger had a nice text-based view of where the IP was going.
22:13:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> That's the crap one IIRC <-- thought that was either RC/Funge or FBBI
22:14:02 <ehird> I know you dislike the code, but it works, doesn't it?
22:14:05 <ehird> It passes Mycology?
22:14:12 <Deewiant> It uses static buffers and gets()
22:14:13 <ehird> I think comparing RC/Funge to FBBI is giving MKRY a great disservice
22:14:16 <Deewiant> It'd be trivial to make it segfault.
22:14:45 <Deewiant> It's good as long as you don't feed it too much data :-P
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22:15:22 <ehird> a world wide network of toaster
22:16:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, seems ehird is a RCS fanboy for unknown reason...
22:16:48 <ehird> The code sucks. I agree.
22:17:05 <ehird> I just don't like how you continually say that RC/Funge sucks and MKRY can't implement befunge properly etc etc
22:17:14 <ehird> Why not invite him in and say that?
22:18:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, add some tests to mycology that make rc/funge segfault?
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: if he is interested he would be in here
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: in befunge in general I mean
22:18:44 <ehird> he'd be in here if he's interested in talking about the topics we talk about in here with the people who are in here at the times he would come in here
22:18:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: He might just increase the buffer sizes ;-P
22:20:48 <oklopol> well mostly it was a typo.
22:21:01 <oklopol> static buffers are against my face.
22:21:08 <oklopol> Deewiant: well there was one
22:21:22 <Deewiant> The sentence is perfectly parseable as-is
22:21:42 <oklopol> that's actually pretty good
22:21:53 <Deewiant> Or just, you know, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bugger?jss=0
22:22:01 <oklopol> i thought like, you know, buggers
22:22:01 <Deewiant> "an annoying or troublesome thing"
22:22:17 <oklopol> but with that meaning i'm not sure it made that much sense
22:22:28 <ehird> I'LL BUGGER YOU IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
22:22:36 <fizzie> But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.
22:22:43 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah well okay sure
22:22:54 <oklopol> i guess i have to agree my fingers outsmarted me again.
22:23:54 <Deewiant> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=owtte
22:24:52 <ehird> Deewiant: what gfx card did you say you had again
22:25:23 <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:25:24 <ehird> I'm trying to get the best passively cooled one I can from the limited choice because I can't be fucked to mess around with coolers and shit
22:26:12 <fizzie> I have in these machines a passively cooled GeForce 7600-something and a 8600-something, but I am in no way recommending these, and it's very much not bleeding-edge high-performance 3D-powerfest.
22:26:14 <Deewiant> I don't know ~anything about passively cooled ones
22:26:44 <ehird> I was just figuring out what yours was
22:26:46 <ehird> So that I can exclude it
22:27:20 <ehird> Looks like it'll be 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
22:27:33 <ehird> Any gamers in here are welcome to take a few second break to laugh at me heartily for saying that
22:27:43 <ehird> "Such a wimpy thing! Couldn't even play Wolfenstein 3D!"
22:27:56 <Deewiant> ehird: That's worse than my previous graphics card
22:28:07 <ehird> Deewiant: :-D What was your previous one?
22:28:23 <ehird> and I assume your opinion of it is "crap"
22:28:34 <Deewiant> Well, for certain values of "crap"
22:28:58 <Deewiant> I managed to play through Fallout 3 with that one
22:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: The most graphically intensive game I've ever played is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy's_Splinter_Cell_(video_game)
22:29:20 <ehird> So I don't think it matters which card I pick, really.
22:29:31 <Deewiant> That didn't run well on the card before my X800XL
22:29:56 <ehird> Deewiant: But the card before your X800XL is worse than a 512mb Radeon 4550, right?
22:30:08 <ehird> Chipset Model:ATY,RadeonX1600
22:30:14 <ehird> PCIe Lane Width:x16
22:30:16 <ehird> VRAM (Total):128 MB
22:30:23 <ehird> So, my X1600 is better than the 4550? Heh.
22:30:34 <Deewiant> ehird: About the same, I think.
22:30:50 <ehird> I'd get a non-passively-cooled one if I wasn't worried about it whirring all the time.
22:30:59 <ehird> I guess it's just the high-end cards that do that, but I don't really like risking things.
22:31:02 <Deewiant> http://www.jathardware.com/2/video.html (warning: Finnish) sorts GPUs by power, approximately
22:31:32 <Deewiant> I'll start saying 'what?' every time I come to the computer too
22:31:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, whatever I get has to be less powerful than yours since you say it whirrs even when idle
22:32:01 <Deewiant> ehird: It has to be anyway, since I have the next-most powerful card AMD currently sells.
22:32:07 <Deewiant> The most powerful being the X2 version.
22:32:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, what to <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:32:16 <ehird> So... {512MB,1GB} 4850, 512mb {4830,or 4550}
22:32:44 <ehird> The small selection I have to pick from is because apparently they assume everyone buying their top performance product is a gamer.
22:32:44 <fizzie> I think my passively-cooled one is a 8600 GT, which is there between GeForce 7800 GS and Radeon HD 2900 GT.
22:33:07 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query.
22:33:12 <ehird> I _could_ get the lowest I can and replace it with one I buy myself, but fuck, I don't want to do more than switch the power supply :-P
22:34:59 <fizzie> Phew, the relief is palpable: the scripts I've written for that AI tournament university course thing I've been talking about every now and then seem to be working.
22:35:04 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/ ← Huray, someone else is as obsessive as me!!
22:35:12 <ehird> "* Anechoic Test Chamber"
22:35:14 <ehird> Er, make that more obsessive.
22:35:47 <ehird> Oh, I thought they meant like
22:35:52 <ehird> They actually use them in one of those
22:35:55 <ehird> Which would be lol
22:36:15 <fizzie> There are other reviewers too that are very silently-oriented, but I've relied a lot on silentpcreview too.
22:36:29 <oklopol> fizzie: what tournament? tell everything you've told sofar.
22:36:40 <ehird> I just love the sound of an idle room, really.
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22:37:26 <ehird> I guess the silent pc guys watercool everything
22:37:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Just read http://wiki.tkk.fi/display/T934400/Home if you can't wait; have to go away for 15 minutes or so.
22:38:04 <oklopol> i'm not in a hurry, have tons to read and exam tomorrow
22:38:11 <oklopol> (wait actually 10 pages left)
22:38:22 <ehird> fizzie: see? your life is unbelievably fun.
22:38:27 <ehird> this is solid proof.
22:39:09 <Deewiant> Well, the answer is 'because the professor said so'
22:39:10 <oklopol> but i will probably do one more quick reread, i confused a detail about lzj and lzmw last time
22:39:19 <ehird> One day we'll invent completely silent systems that make no noise ever.
22:39:25 <ehird> Even when you use up 100% resources.
22:40:10 <Deewiant> I guess what I wanted to ask was 'is there any particular reason they specify Java'
22:40:51 <oklopol> our profs say something like "it's used a lot in companies", usually
22:40:57 <oklopol> i can't say i see the relevance of that
22:41:24 <ehird> oklopol: they're trying to teach you to go work at boringbigcorp.
22:41:53 <Deewiant> oklopol: That's a reason to teach it, not to force its use in a course about concepts not tied to any language
22:42:28 <SimonRC> my AI courses allowed any language
22:42:41 <ehird> I think I might know why I hate loud computers.
22:42:55 <ehird> I think I probably have tinnitus, so silence = faint whining
22:43:02 <ehird> So quiet noise + faint whining = annoying
22:43:41 <oklopol> Deewiant: i think the actual reason is those profs who aren't actually programmers at heart don't really know anything but java, since it's the official lang; hard to accept other languages
22:44:05 <Deewiant> Those profs aren't going to actually read the students code, are they?
22:44:39 <oklopol> STOP COUNTERING MY ARGUMENTS
22:45:13 <oklopol> i don't really know, maybe you can guess next
22:45:38 <Deewiant> The TAs might read the code but I don't see any good reason for that, in turn
22:45:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: Actually it's "because students said so".
22:46:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: It was still Scheme two years ago.
22:46:07 <oklopol> reason for what, *ta's* reading code, or *reading code*?
22:46:15 <ehird> fizzie: students dislike scheme?
22:46:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Why force any particular language?
22:46:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course, they're idiots on average.
22:46:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: And just about everyone complained about Scheme, since it's no longer used for teaching.
22:46:43 <Deewiant> ehird: But it also helps that it's not taught.
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22:47:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Because the point is to provide a system for the students so that they can focus on the presumably-AI-related-parts of the assignment instead of generic code-writing.
22:47:04 <ehird> Give them a fucking copy of the little schemer.
22:47:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: So, in fact, any language would be okay as long as it can hook into what you provide?
22:48:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, yes, if it can compile to JVM bytecode so that it works in the tournament system (which needs a sandboxy thing and so on), it's okay. We had someone use Scala-or-whatsitcalled last year.
22:48:50 <Deewiant> Alright, then that page is just misleading.
22:48:59 <ehird> It's like Haskell + Ruby + Java.
22:49:01 <Deewiant> I might do the course next year and learn Clojure while I'm at it.
22:49:33 <oklopol> ehird: i doubt most students are at a level where they can learn a new language by themselves as they go
22:49:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Assuming it still exists next year. Markku (the professor responsible for it) is retiring, I think. At least he said something like that.
22:49:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Scala seems somewhat lame to me, just a mishmash of some stuff but nothing really cool
22:49:58 <Deewiant> Maybe I haven't looked into it enough?
22:50:03 <ehird> Deewiant: It looked like that to me until today
22:50:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Markku Syrjänen.
22:50:10 <ehird> It's really quite nice
22:50:19 <ehird> It is a mishmash, but it's a smooth mishmash
22:50:28 <ehird> There's not like different segments of piled on features like D
22:50:29 <oklopol> wait was Deewiant at helsinki too
22:50:48 <Deewiant> Not at Helsinki University, no.
22:51:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Its syntax is very lenient, very DSL-y, scripting code is just concise and simple like you'd expect, java libraries don't feel out of place, and its functional features are pretty much on par with haskell's, sans lazy evaluation
22:51:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Also -- it has really good concurrency, Actors and the like
22:51:35 <oklopol> Deewiant: is that some kinda university
22:52:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, the page is "misleading" because non-Java languages aren't officially supported by the course personnel (i.e. me), so I don't go out of my way to advertise that possibility, just to keep things simple.
22:52:02 <oklopol> okay, i don't want to know the gory details
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22:52:17 <ehird> Deewiant: The only thing you can't do too well is scripts that run for pretty much 0 time and are called really often (of which there aren't many *at all*), since the JVM startup time penalty kicks in
22:52:23 <oklopol> but, err, for some reason i thought you lived in tampere, which is kinda weird, i usually remember this stuff
22:52:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh, I'd just add a disclaimer.
22:53:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I find the JVM somewhat repellent for that reason.
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22:53:31 <ehird> Deewiant: How many scripts do you write that (1) finish instantly and (2) are called really often?
22:53:41 <ehird> I can't really think of any apart from things that you should do e.g. as shell aliases
22:53:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: are you like a second year student?
22:53:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Even a little bit of processing will offset the jvm cost
22:53:59 <Deewiant> oklopol: Yep, for some values of 'like'
22:54:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Sure, but it's still noticeable compared to straight-to-executable languages.
22:54:37 <Deewiant> I mean, most things I write are the type that process for less than 1 second.
22:54:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: i guess the value i was going for was null.
22:54:59 <ehird> Deewiant: The JVM startup time is just like 0.1s
22:55:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you're such a pedant. Personally I can't say I see a reason to say "Java (or any other language that can compile Java VM bytecode, but this option is not officially supported by course personnel)" when I can simply say "Java" and have the one people who wants to do anything "special" ask me in IRC about it.
22:55:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I mean, even a script that processes for 0.1s almost offsets the JVM startup cost
22:55:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just believe in not hiding options. :-P
22:55:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it runs in 0.2s then, so only 50% of the time is startup.
22:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but when it comes down to it, a 0.2s script does _not_ feel 50% more responsive than a 0.1s script
22:56:16 <ehird> Humans aren't that simple
22:56:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query. <-- didn't see the line.
22:56:30 <Deewiant> It does if you run it 5 times.
22:57:05 <ehird> Deewiant: So the majority of programs you write are scripts that take 0.1s or less to run and are called many times in quick succession?
22:57:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I really think that's quite a minority; and most of those "programs" could probably be done as shell functions.
22:57:25 <ehird> I agree JVM startup time could be better
22:57:30 <ehird> but I don't think it's that much of an issue.
22:57:42 <Deewiant> ehird: The majority of programs I've written are either quick scripts or esolang interpreters, which tend to be tested in that fashion.
22:58:09 <ehird> quick scripts: Usually take more than 0.1s to execute. 0.5-1s, I'd say, on average. Which offset the JVM startup time just fine.
22:58:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hardly ever wrote long running programs apart from some irc bots
22:58:17 <Deewiant> Besides that I've written libraries.
22:58:23 <ehird> Also, since the JVM itself is blazing fast, post-startup, what would take 1s in Perl could take 0.7s in the JVM
22:58:30 <Deewiant> And the remaining stuff I've written is in the minority.
22:58:38 <ehird> Esolang interpreters: Your test cases are too trivial.
22:58:40 <Deewiant> ehird: And 0.3s in D or whatever.
22:58:55 <ehird> Deewiant: http://kano.net/javabench/
22:59:01 <ehird> (↑ kidding around)
22:59:22 <ehird> Deewiant: There's no way you can get Mycology to go in less than 0.5s unless you're microoptimizing C like AnMaster_ipv6.
22:59:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Depends on the machine: times make no difference in isolation.
22:59:47 <Deewiant> CCBI with fingerprints on and output to terminal runs in 0.3s here.
22:59:54 <ehird> Deewiant: 0.4s vs 0.3s
23:00:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, why did I say 'difference' instead of 'sense'
23:00:08 <ehird> I could barely tell the difference
23:00:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ccbi takes about 1 second here for mycology when redirecting stdout to /dev/null
23:00:23 <ehird> I'd say 0.4 is like 3% less responsive feeling than 0.3
23:00:30 <ehird> And I doubt you could tell unless you really, really wanted to
23:00:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Doing it repeatedly makes the 0.3 seem noticeably faster.
23:00:41 <Deewiant> But that's just my brain exaggerating the difference.
23:00:42 <oklopol> what in the world could it have that takes long?
23:00:46 <Deewiant> But then, my brain is the one who cares. :-P
23:01:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: The Perl interpreter runs it in 12 seconds.
23:01:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, well, for a megafast befunge interpreter that can run mycology in 0.3 that you wish to run it on again and again without any delay... don't use the JVM.
23:01:27 <Deewiant> oklopol: Everything, it's just turtle-slow. :-P
23:01:39 <ehird> But I would imagine after running mycology the next step would be either to fix the source to progress further, or to stop running mycology/
23:02:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, for cfunge the bottleneck is sting pushing of environment in y when Deewiant wants a delay in the test of HRTI
23:04:57 <oklopol> assumed that was some kinda befunge term
23:09:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.65 without HRTI to stdout <-- meant 0.065
23:10:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, HRTI = High Resolution Timer Interface iirc
23:11:16 <Deewiant> Just make a fingerprint that does, if you care
23:12:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it would be properly designed then with implementation defined units, so you used some instruction to get "ticks per second" from interpreter
23:14:23 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:25 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:27 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:54 <Deewiant> School in 9 hours; I shall sleep now.
23:15:13 <oklopol> i shall watch south park now
23:16:01 <Deewiant> I'm happy to sleep even when not really tired.
23:16:14 <Deewiant> But I am a bit tired now, so I shall sleep.
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23:17:08 <oklopol> the actual reason i don't want to go to sleep now is that i need to wake up soon
23:21:41 <oklopol> and i go to the bank, get it fixed
23:21:47 <oklopol> now, one day late, i start paying rent
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23:30:08 <psygnisf_> first we must insight the proletariate to rise up
23:30:32 <psygnisf_> then, once the revolution has taken all land and property from the bourgeoisie, you wont need to pay rent.
23:32:29 <oklopol> will that get it payed tonight?
23:32:58 <SimonRC> you may kid but I keep seeing communists campaigning ni the town center
23:33:35 <psygnisf_> simonrc: im only partially kidding.
23:33:48 <psygnisf_> since i AM an insurrectionary anarchist.
23:34:44 <oklopol> that word did not be contained in mine head lexicon.
23:35:08 <ehird> practical-anarchists are so tdeious
23:35:33 <oklopol> i don't know "tdeious" either
23:35:37 <oklopol> god i suck at this language
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23:54:13 <oklopol> i wonder how i managed to spend half an hour not starting the ep